The Anti-Baby Internet Cult: The Girl with the List

Spend enough time watching girly content these days, and you’ll see a commenter or creator cite “the Girl with the List.” This batman of Lady Internet is literally summoned in content across tiktok and instagram. Her bat signal: “Where’s the girl with the list?”Her purpose? Cure baby fever. Remind you to take your birth control.Today, we explore the work of the Girl (actually girls) with the List, the unique genre of choice-based horror stories (be they pregnancy, parenting, or entirely-non-family-related activities, such as cosmetic surgery and travel), and whether this genre helps or harms. Enjoy!Show NotesThere’s a young woman named Abigail Porter (goes by Zoomie) with 1.6M followers on Tiktok who is famous for “curing baby fever” by creating abundant shorts on pregnancy and delivery body horror and frustrating experiences parents have while lactating and raising young kids.Just this week I’ve heard two mentions of her in the wild “She changed my life” said one. “I literally owe her everything”Suffice it to say she is, at best, feeding into women’s feelings of justification for not having kids, and at worst, generating fear about having kids where it didn’t exist before.Abigail is not alone in creating viral content of this genre—there’s also “the girl with the list” with whom Abigail is often confused and that list is called “YUNI’S PROS AND CONS LIST OF HAVING CHILDREN”), so we should probably talk about it!So… Why avoid pregnancies?Some highlights:* A woman whose insides needed stitches after her baby scratched her from the inside on the way out* A woman whose baby began to choke on her nipple after it literally fell off* A woman who grew a tumor on her lip the size of her pinky* Women losing their hair, their teeth, all their eyelashes* A woman who developed a mutation during pregnancy that made her insensitive to pain meds who had to endure a c-section with no pain meds* A woman who went deaf after her kid kissed her on the ear, causing what’s called “the kiss of death”* BTW, this is also known as cochlear ear‑kiss injury / Reiter’s Ear Kiss Syndrome (REKS)* It happens when someone kisses directly over the ear canal (the opening of the ear), especially using a strong suction/“air kiss.” and it can cause permanent hearing loss* A woman whose retinas detached because she pushed so hard in labor* Women whose bodies have become both temporarily and permanently deformed or uglified (swollen hands and feet, swollen legs, varicose veins, popped blood vessels in eyes, toe nails falling off, etc.)There are basically four themes:* Relatively unusual medical complications from pregnancy and lactation (like uterine prolapse, various forms of body horror)* The expenses of labor and delivery* Poop and pee horror* Pretty common parenting, pregnancy, and postpartum stuff, e.g.:* Fussy babies who are only calm when being bounced* The rectus abdominus being separated* Swelling* Using a nosfrida to suck snot out of a baby’s nose* Having strangers on the internet jump down your throat for really innocuous things, such as mentioning breastfeeding* Kids making messes around the house (flooding, vandalism, etc.)The Psychology of it AllAvailability HeuristicCreators like Abigail and Yuni make pregnancy and parenting look heuristic by making their hazards extremely visible and available, but it’s extremely easy to do the exact same thing Abigail does with other life choices, and that includes life choicesKnown genres:* Hiking (e.g., Mr. Ballen videos)* Cosmetic surgery (e.g., Wonny)* Buying homes (e.g., videos and tiktoks by home inspectors)* Eating out at restaurants (e.g. dirty restaurant audits)You can effectively develop an aversion to—even phobia of—pretty much anything by giving yourself sufficient exposure to its hazards.This genre is a form of opt-in brainwashing, though it could also be a form of unintentional, algorithmic brainwashing.Loss AversionHumans generally weigh potential losses about 1.5–2.5 times as strongly as equal-sized gains in typical risky choices, though the exact ratio and even the presence of loss aversion depend on context and measurement method (there’s a lot of research on this)See:* https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prospect-theory* https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/loss-aversion* https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/loss-aversion/* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167487024000485* https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prospect-theoryThis means that people will be far more influenced by downsides of parenting than by upsides.It’s worse than that, though, because creators like Abigail and Yuri can’t even wrap their heads around the rewards of parenting. Abigail’s most commonly cited argument is “kids are cute” whereas Yuri’s list includes:* “Child?”* “Tax return benefits”* “Tiny everything”* “You can’t get drafted while pregnant”* “You can bribe them with candy”* No you can’t* “If you raise them right people praise you for it”Overthinking & tokophobia* Overthinking things is why mental health is plummeting* Abigail fundamentally gets people to overthink pregnancy and childrearing* Robert Sepulsky talks about how the system we’ve evolved to deal with stress wasn’t really designed for animals capable of metacognition, who can literally trigger that system by THINKINGOverthinking about pregnancy may be contributing to a rise in phobia about pregnancy (known as tokophobia).A 2017 systematic review of 33 studies (≈854,000 pregnant women worldwide) estimated a pooled prevalence of tokophobia around 14%, with individual study estimates ranging from about 3.7% to 43%.* The researches concluded that the prevalence of tokophobia “appears to have increased in recent years (2000 onwards)”, although they cautioned that this finding is complicated by changing definitions and heterogeneous methods.More moderate but still clinically relevant “fear of childbirth” (not always labeled tokophobia) is common, with estimates in some European samples of about 5% with severe fear and over a third with high fear.About AbigailHer content creation journey* Started in 2021She’s very much a product of the urban monoculture* Lives in downtown Los AngelesHer standards for hardship are quite low:* She says that getting an IUD was the most painful thing she has experienced.* She hates cleaning up after cookingShe also does love caring little things:* She says she would protect her cats, Bub and Willow, with her lifeShe has merch!* $60 “divorce your republican husband” XL crewneck sweatshirt with a wolf on it (sold out)* $50 “dump your republican boyfriend” M/L hunting camo crewneck sweatshirt (sold out)* $68 “dump your republican boyfriend” XL green crewneck* $58 “dump your republican boyfriend” XL pink hoodie* $68 “dump your republican boyfriend” L green/blue crewneck sweatshirt* $54 “dump your republican / story of my life” XL running-away-deer black crewneck sweatshirt* $60 “dump your republican boyfriend” L cameo hoodie (sold out)* $58 “dump your republican boyfriend” M navy zip-upWait why are most of these for larger people?How do we feel about this?What Abigail is doing is fine. She’s pretty clear in her content to not shame parents; she’s really empathetic toward parents (can’t say the same of many parents online!).She’s also WAAAAY more ethical and polite than your typical content creator about the clips she uses: She told NBC: ““If I’m going to do a video about bodies in particular and show somebody’s body, I’m going to make sure that I have consent from that mother first — like if she posted a video and she made this acknowledgement like, ‘This is my body. It’s pretty crazy. The things that have happened in my body is pretty wild.’””She also told NBC: “I have such a respect and a reverence and an admiration for the people who do choose to go through with this, because it is a huge choice,” Porter said. “I hope people will stop treating having children as an impulse decision that everyone does. I think that’s better for us and also for the children, because if every child that was ever born had parents that really, really wanted them, I think the world would be a better place.”YES!!People should only want kids because they have a strong reason to do so. In my ideal world, everyone should be able to watch one of Abigail’s long compilation videos and not feel doubts.Abigail’s content is actually helpful in:* Dissuading people from having kids for trivial reasons* Helping actual parents head off medical issues.* In one NBC article about Abigail and Yuri, they write “Biggers-Stewart, who is now pregnant with her second child, described the list videos as “a powerful tool for self-advocacy.””* “I was totally shocked by all the things that could happen to you. And that’s even in today’s modern world, which is shocking with the amount of research and access that we have at our fingertips,” Biggers-Stewart said. “There’s so many different types of complications, and it can be really brutal on women. So I was like, this is empowering.”* Helping actual parents head off other parenting foibles* We had to learn the hard way to lock up the kitchen at night, restrict most foods to only certain parts of the house, permanently wear aprons, etc.* Basically: When these things happen (the vandalism, the food messes, etc.) I see it as my fault, not the kids’ fault* They’re prisoners in our home and when they’re young, they literally don’t know better; it’s up to us as parents to provide the equivalent of bumpers on the bowling alleys of their lives.The primary concern isn’t with anti-kid content, but “worst-case scenario” content in general that can create algorithmic loops that create phobias.What about friends/girlfriends who cite “the list” in conversations about having kids?* Have a logical conversation.* About actual risks* About equivalent risks they take in their everyday life, through their hobbies, etc.* Such as hiking, cosmetic surgery, eating out, etc.* If they still are afraid of having kids, then they probably shouldn’t have kidsAppendix: Longer Sampling of Abigail’s Reasons to Not Have KidsPregnancy and birth: medical risks and trauma* Severe post‑labor swelling of the vulva (“had balls between my legs”).* Uterus flipping inside out and being placed in a bucket (uterine inversion).* Severe tearing, including tears toward the anus and up toward the clitoris (“towards your bean”).* Episiotomy (“they cut to make the hole bigger”) and still having to push afterward.* Vaginal or uterine prolapse (“my vagina fell out” / holding her uterus in her hand; uterine prolapse needing to be pushed back in).* Retained or traumatized bladder/urethra causing urinary retention (bladder “shut down,” pee‑hole swelling shut, catheter for days to weeks).* Incarcerated uterus causing urinary obstruction and catheterization for two weeks.* Post‑birth inability to pee without elaborate “Subway sandwich” pad/ice/witch hazel/foam setup after every bathroom trip.* Pelvic floor damage: chronic incontinence, “never pee normally again,” needing to clench when sneezing, “neverending wipe,” stool control issues.* Massive blood clots after birth (basketball‑sized clot, near hemorrhage, transfusions).* Mastitis leading to sepsis and large clots; spouse literally sucking out infected milk and blood.* C‑section horror stories: adhesions, two‑hour surgery with every organ manipulated, awake without “loopy drugs,” drunk surgeon in another case, multiple layers and instruments (forceps, “bladder blade”) instead of the simple cut most people imagine.* Forceps deliveries (baby’s head clamped with metal instruments, higher risk of severe tears).* Vacuum‑assisted birth with no epidural, tearing “to my ass.”* Epidural issues: catheters left in the back, epidurals that can be “unplugged,” epidurals that fail entirely so pain is still extreme.* Pain of cervical dilation (and IUD insertion used as a reference point), with emphasis that nobody explains this upfront.* Cervix and uterus changes: permanent uterine enlargement, cervix dilation/effacement as unseen but excruciating changes.* Eating or handling placentas (and the idea of placentophagy being sold as healthy) being viscerally repulsive.Pregnancy complications and body changes* Detached retinas / blindness from pushing too hard in labor; cases of permanent severe visual loss and disability.* Pregnancy‑related eye trauma like subconjunctival hemorrhages (bloodshot eyes from pushing).* Pregnancy‑related cancers (choriocarcinoma) that can arise after normal pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, or miscarriage.* High blood pressure disorders like preeclampsia (including grotesque swelling and “squishy gel hairbrush” legs), with inadequate research and answers.* Jaundiced newborns and the stress of their care (also used as a reminder of hidden complications).* Lithopedion (“stone baby”): calcified ectopic pregnancies carried for decades, sometimes discovered in old age.* Fetus‑in‑fetu / parasitic twins: one twin growing inside another’s body or skull; parasitic twin cases discovered in teens.* Multiple uteruses (uterus didelphys), including rare cases of simultaneous pregnancies in both, and the associated risk of double pregnancy.* Superfetation: getting pregnant again while already pregnant, leading to extra fetuses weeks apart.* Extreme multiples: triplets, quintuplets, and even the documented nonuplets (nine babies), with unmanageable risk and burden.* Uterus or placenta allergies and oddities (itchy uterus from amniotic fluid, mothers allergic to various pregnancy‑related substances).* New allergies developing after pregnancy (to antibiotics, adhesives, metals, pine nuts, dogs, insects, etc.), including a friend “allergic to her legs.”* Lactation‑related tumors and growths (pregnancy tumors / pyogenic granulomas on gums or elsewhere).* Chromhidrosis (colored sweat), including pregnant people turning toilet seats blue.* Extreme swelling of hands, feet, and noses; preeclampsia‑related edema; “pregnancy nose” growth and swelling.* Brain changes: measurable shrinkage in regions related to social cognition, with “pregnancy brain” symptoms like memory issues, poor focus, and enduring structural changes detectable years later.* Pregnancy rhinitis and sensory loss: severe congestion leading to loss of smell and taste; earlier pregnancy caused hearing loss; pregnancy stacking sensory deficits.* Postpartum hair loss to the point of partial balding even more than a year after birth.* Postpartum diastasis recti (ab separation) severe enough that a practitioner can press fingers between muscles and feel the aorta; associated back pain, constipation, and urine leakage.* Decorvain’s tenosynovitis (“mommy’s wrist”): tendon swelling from repetitive lifting of babies, laundry, groceries, etc., potentially requiring splints or surgery and causing lasting hand/wrist disability.* Loss of ability to burp (RCPD‑like symptoms) arising after pregnancies, sometimes reversing only after later pregnancies.* Permanent changes in teeth and bones: baby “sucking the calcium” out, teeth rotting or falling out, multiple root canals, bone density changes.* Toenails softening and falling off after birth, sometimes never growing back.* New allergies or sensitivities to tattoos, metals, adhesives after pregnancy that complicate future medical care.* Nasal, skin, or other pigment changes; white or lighter hair; other unexpected cosmetic shifts.* Long‑term depression and anxiety, often in line with maternal family history; fear of passing down the same nervous system and mood disorders.Breastfeeding and lactation horrors* Babies causing nipple trauma, including nipples turning black/white (ischemia), “dead” nipple tissue.* Babies literally sucking off part of a nipple; pieces ending up in the baby’s mouth and needing reattachment.* Nipple puncture wounds from baby teeth, leaving permanent holes.* Severe breastfeeding pain: clenching against anticipated pain at every latch, blood in milk, cracked nipples.* Ongoing leakage from breasts in public, constant fear of spontaneous milk letdown.* Milk “pregnancy tumors” in gums/teeth and pregnancy‑related gum growths while breastfeeding.* Breast pumps and breastfeeding schedules requiring waking every 2–3 hours regardless of who is feeding, destroying sleep.* Need to pump even when partner bottle‑feeds to maintain supply, so the birthing parent’s sleep is still fragmented.Neonatal and baby health issues* Babies born with teeth or extra teeth, including terrifying images of infant skulls full of stacked teeth.* Infants born with “boobs” and lactation (hormonal breast tissue in newborns), requiring parents to express milk from babies’ chests.* Newborn periods in baby girls, from maternal hormones, shocking parents who weren’t warned.* Babies swallowing their own meconium at birth and suffering severe respiratory distress.* Babies with no instinct to eat, crying for hours and needing forced feeding.* Babies forgetting to breathe during overwhelming emotions; breath‑holding spells that terrify caregivers.* Severe newborn jaundice requiring treatment and parental stress.* NICU stays for weeks or months, with enormous financial and emotional cost.Medical system and informed consent issues* Hidden information: lack of comprehensive sex/family‑planning education about what birth and postpartum are actually like.* Dismissive or negligent medical staff (e.g., nurse sending a woman home at 1 cm when she’s clearly in labor, then she delivers at home or en route).* OBs scolding patients for coughing with pneumonia during C‑section and stuffing organs back in without care, leaving disfiguring scars.* Drunk surgeon doing a C‑section on another patient and being fired later.* Multiple, painful postpartum pelvic exams without pain relief while the mother is unable to hold the baby.* Under‑researched conditions (e.g., rare lactation or vascular complications) with little scientific literature or explanation.* Framing: society romanticizing pregnancy and parenthood, omitting trauma, leading to feelings of personal failure when reality is hard.Financial burden* Hospital birth bills in the tens of thousands to nearly $50,000 for a single uncomplicated birth before insurance.* NICU bills for triplets without insurance running into hundreds of thousands per baby.* Charges such as $36,000 for the first 24 hours of life, $4,000 for skin‑to‑skin contact, $17,000 for a one‑day hospital room.* Ongoing annual childcare costs around $20,000 per child, adding up to $100,000–120,000 for ages 0–5.* Estimates of $237,000+ to raise a child to 18 (excluding college), plus another roughly $100,000 for college.* Formula costs of $38–50 per can that lasts only a few days, making infant feeding extremely expensive.* One mom’s yearly cost for three kids around $47,000.* Kids spending hundreds on in‑app purchases like Roblox Robux without permission.* Home destruction costs: multiple replacement TVs, remotes, front door handles, wall repair, and warped floors from leaks.Lifestyle costs: time, freedom, and autonomy* Loss of free time and personal days off (e.g., Sundays now consumed with children’s activities instead of sleeping in and seeing friends).* Constant need to “fill the days” with activities for kids; no spontaneous rest or leisure.* Child‑free lifestyle benefits: travel, expensive city living, pampering oneself, double income no kids (DINK) life.* Inability to travel light: car seats, diaper bags, etc., turning flights into logistics nightmares.* Need to manage diapers, feeding schedules, and baby entertainment on planes, plus anxiety about disturbing others.* Never being off‑duty, including caring for children while sick yourself.* Introverts and easily overstimulated people losing the quiet, solitary recovery time they rely on.* Having to cook three meals plus snacks daily, often separate bland food for kids, destroying the joy of cooking or eating spicy food.* Having to attend endless kids’ appointments and activities on top of work.* Permanent vigilance: always monitoring kids’ safety, bodily functions, and behaviors.Psychological and relationship impacts* Postnatal depression, psychosis, and long‑term mental health crises leading some parents to vow never to repeat pregnancy.* Pregnancy hormones causing intense, often irrational hatred or intolerance toward partners (“I hated my husband while I was pregnant”).* Strain on relationships: changed dynamics with partners, loss of sense of self, resentment.* Overstimulation from hearing “Mom” hundreds of times per day (e.g., 234 “Mom”s in 13 hours, ~85,000 per year).* Guilt and shame from not living up to romanticized ideals of motherhood.* People‑pleasing parents being unable to cope with public tantrums, plane screams, or feeling like they are “ruining” others’ experiences.* Loss of identity, body image issues, and grief over the pre‑baby self and lifestyle.Children’s bodily fluids and hygiene issues* Endless poop incidents: blowouts before weddings, on floors, in pools, on parents’ clothes, on hospital staff.* Toddlers wiping feces down every stair or making “art” on walls with urine or feces.* Dogs eating children’s feces from the yard or house.* Kids peeing in conditioners, dog bowls, carpets, dishwashers, and elsewhere, contaminating everyday objects.* Persistent smells: rancid pee in vents, years‑long odor issues preventing home resale.* Vomit parties: children intentionally drinking water to induce vomiting throughout the house.* Chronic vomiting and diarrhea episodes parents must clean while sleep‑deprived.Household destruction and mess* Children destroying multiple TVs, remotes, and door hardware within a year.* Kids hammering holes in walls, pulling off door handles, eating drywall, and requiring constant repainting and patching.* Paint disasters: kids smearing house paint over furniture, floors, and even entire condos; black paint on everything.* Flour, eggs, baby powder, and other cooking ingredients dumped all over carpets and floors, turning into intractable sludge.* Baby powder explosions requiring strong vacuums and toothbrushes to clean.* Stickers covering TVs, leaving permanent sticky residue that collects dirt.* Syrup “cup holders” carved into couches; couch destruction.* Flooded houses from kids playing with sinks or fridges; warped floors, broken ice makers.* Kids eating walls and needing corner protectors to stop them from biting again.* Constant car‑seat filth: crumbs, poop, and stains that never fully clean out.Physical danger from kids’ behavior* Toddlers head‑butting parents and causing concussions, black eyes, migraines, and memory loss.* Kids biting adults hard enough to cause infections requiring antibiotics; “second most dangerous bite.”* Human bites leading to non‑healing wounds and risk of limb loss.* Babies scratching mothers’ insides during birth with fully grown fingernails, causing internal stitches.* Kids pulling fridge water/ice dispensers nonstop, causing water damage and hazards.* Children nearly drowning caregivers (roughhousing in pools) without understanding the danger.* Kids dropping heavy objects, throwing iPads into ponds, or otherwise causing injuries and expensive losses.* Baby skulls full of developing teeth, plus parents needing to forcibly remove loose teeth in painful ways.Sleep deprivation and constant noise* Night terrors: toddlers screaming with eyes open for hours while asleep, terrifying parents.* Colicky babies crying for hours despite parents’ efforts; parents “just surviving.”* Babies needing to be bounced on exercise balls for hours every night.* Children constantly yelling “Mommy” or screaming; continuous audio overstimulation.* Sleep deprivation from feeding schedules, night wakings, and frequent illnesses.* Parents unable to shower or change clothes for days; living in the same clothes while caring for infants.Social, cultural, and structural reasons* Unaffordable, inaccessible childcare systems; poor parental leave; lack of social support for parents, especially in the U.S.* Pressure from family (e.g., religious households, Thanksgiving interrogations) to marry and have kids despite personal ambivalence.* Romanticization of pregnancy and motherhood in media, hiding risks and hardships.* Unsolicited advice and criticism directed at both child‑free people and parents (“you’ll change your mind,” breastfeeding debates, etc.).* Fear of being responsible for a screaming child on a plane and being judged by strangers.* Concern about passing on generational trauma, mental illness, or unhealthy patterns.Personal lifestyle and preference reasons* Love of travel, concerts, gaming, hobbies (miniatures, comics, snakes, bones) that would be curtailed by kids.* Desire to keep a home wired with cables, gamer setups, and fragile collectibles without child‑proofing or sticky fingers.* Disinterest in revisiting schoolwork and homework via children.* Sensory issues and low tolerance for crying or touch, incompatible with early parenting demands.* Preference for quiet, orderly homes and uncluttered floors.* Desire to remain lazy, spontaneous, and self‑oriented without 24/7 caregiving work.* Desire to be “rich auntie” rather than parent; using resources for self, travel, or pets.* Fear of losing sexual freedom, nudity at home, or other adult lifestyle choices.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, everyone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, Simone has kept whatever this topic is going to be a secret from me all day because she wanted to see my reaction for, like, a day and a half at this point.[00:00:10] So what is it, Simone? What, what is it that you wanted to go over?[00:00:15] Simone Collins: What if I told you that there is, there’s a system for convincing women to not have children that men don’t know about because they don’t consume girly content, and it’s just floating around on the internet becoming quite influential and pervasive, changing people’s lives.[00:00:34] And- I,[00:00:34] Malcolm Collins: it sounds like the usual bad guys up to their usual stuff, but why don’t I know about this? Do I not know about this? Do you know about[00:00:41] Simone Collins: the girl with the list?[00:00:44] Malcolm Collins: I have never heard about the girl with the list.[00:00:46] Simone Collins: She’s like Batman. She’s summoned. So there are two types of videos on which you might look to the comments and you’ll see, “Where’s the girl with the list?”[00:00:55] And she gets summoned. She will show up or be summoned on super cute videos of babies or toddlers, or on things going- What? ... absolutely horrible with pregnancy, with delivery, with breastfeeding, with raising toddlers. Because what the girl with the list does is provide you with a virtual form of birth control by taking any cute video you see and just reminding you how horrible it is to be pregnant, to have kids, and to become a k- a parent.[00:01:25] So- Wait,[00:01:25] Malcolm Collins: really? Is she a mom? For[00:01:27] Simone Collins: real. What’s her[00:01:27] Malcolm Collins: backstory?[00:01:28] Simone Collins: She’s n- no, yeah, yeah. I, I will tell you. There are actually, Malcolm, there are actually two girls with a list. One calls herself the OG girl with a list, but she has just, just completely disappeared from the internet. And then the second is who I’ll mostly focus on today.[00:01:43] She’s named Abigail Porter. She goes by Zoomie. Okay. She has 1.6 million followers on TikTok, and she’s famous for curing baby fever by creating abundant shorts on pregnancy and delivery and body horror related to it, basically. A plus frustrating experiences that parents have while they attempt to raise kids.[00:02:03] And even I not being particularly interested in cute baby photos or b- pregnancy body horror, ‘cause I live it I have just this week heard of her twice. I- in just my random girly content that I follow on Instagram[00:02:19] Malcolm Collins: You ... Wait, so you just have randomly seen it. Can you describe the[00:02:22] Simone Collins: instances?[00:02:22] Yeah. Like, in the, the most recent video I, where I was like, “Okay, I’ve gotta do an episode on this,” just this week I was watching a video where a woman is, just said, “She changed my life. I literally owe her everything,” she said. And this was in a video about, let’s see, what was the video about? I’m linking to all this in my show notes.[00:02:39] It was called about The Real Dangers of Trad Wife, Trad Wife Content, Nine Kids and Counting. I mean, you know, I see this stuff and I’m like, “I have to click on it.” Mm-hmm. I have to know why apparently it’s so bad to be, to be a mother. So yeah- ... I, she literally changed my life. Okay, like, I needed to find out who this was.[00:02:57] And also, I’ve heard, there are lots of people in the Base Camp network who are dating young men, who would like to find a wife, who would like to have kids, and I’m hearing more and more from young men that, like, the, the, the women they are dating are like, “Well, I, I never wanna become a parent. Like, I don’t, I don’t wanna be a parent.”[00:03:13] Malcolm Collins: I know. Yeah. Well, the, the psyop, you, you’ve got to groom your wife. Liefleit said it best. Actually, I think we said that first, and then she copied it from us, but I like that she, she’s boarding[00:03:22] Simone Collins: that point. Maybe. I don’t, I don’t care who said it first. Look, you gotta do it.[00:03:25][00:03:34] Simone Collins: And, and that’s, we’re gonna talk about this at the end, basically how to deal with this.[00:03:37] But I, if, to first address the problem, be you a woman who is being subject to this, for lack of a better word, propaganda,[00:03:46] Malcolm Collins: Brainwashing ...[00:03:46] Simone Collins: brainwashing. Or if you’re a young man who’s met an amazing young woman who you think would actually enjoy being a parent, but who’s terrified of it because of this content, we, we need to-[00:03:58] Malcolm Collins: Wait, so to [00:04:00] clarify, this woman felt that she had had, like, her life saved by the girl with the list?[00:04:06] Simone Collins: Yes. So the, the YouTuber that I’m talking about I think probably b- ga- based on the fact that she said, “I literally owe her everything,” i- in my show notes, I’ll send them to you I link to the exact clip where she says this, it, it very much insinuates that she plans on not having kids because of Abigail Porter’s content.[00:04:24] But, okay, just to be clear, so the, sort of background. The first person to do this was this other TikTok creator called Uni. And then eventually, this, this creator created a list, also linked, too, called U- Uni’s Pros and Cons of Having Children. And it has, like, 200 and something cons, and then like, 30 pros or something, and the pros aren’t even, like- That good?[00:04:48] things that... Yeah, like, what do you even... No, that’s not, that’s not why we have kids. And, and so let’s just dive right into it. We[00:04:55] Malcolm Collins: will replace you. That’s our goal. Come on, that’s, that’s what this is all about, winning- Yeah ... the civilizational game. Basically- And they, they don’t get that. They never would get that.[00:05:02] But, yeah, okay, c- continue.[00:05:04] Simone Collins: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve watched over four hours of compilations of-[00:05:09] Malcolm Collins: Over four hours- Yes ... you... Simone.[00:05:12] Simone Collins: Of Abigail Porter’s content.[00:05:14] I’ve gone, I mean, she created on YouTube this compilation of a certain number of years’ worth of her content. I’ve, I’ve gone from watching her having a short pixie cut to a shaved head to hair down to here.[00:05:27] Like, it’s, she’s been doing this for a long time. I think you’d actually find her very attractive. She’s very much your type. Oh, gosh ...[00:05:34] Malcolm Collins: and[00:05:34] Simone Collins: she’s a ginge. She’s very beautiful, so that, that helps. And she... They’re great. I mean, it, a lot of it’s humor. A lot of it’s like America’s Hu- Funniest Home Videos, ‘cause I mean, she’s, she’s being tagged on viral content, and her job basically is to, like, open her phone every mor- I mean, this isn’t obviously her only work, but what she’ll do is probably, presumably, open her phone every morning, see where she’s tagged on TikTok, and then take those clips and make her own little commentary on them and publish them out to her crowd, and then her, her followers.[00:06:00] So her- She’s actually- Wait, her[00:06:01] Malcolm Collins: name is Abigail Porter, you said?[00:06:04] Simone Collins: But she goes by Zumi. Yeah.[00:06:06] Malcolm Collins: Okay. I’ll, I’ll look her up to see if I agree with your assessment.[00:06:09] Simone Collins: Y- no, you’ll find her so cute.[00:06:10] This is her recent Los Angeles profile. So this is what she looks like today with longer hair.[00:06:15] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she’s cute. She’s my type, for sure.[00:06:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.[00:06:18] Malcolm Collins: I mean- ... she looks too old now. I, I wouldn’t date her like- She’s-[00:06:21] in real life[00:06:22] Simone Collins: with what she looks like today ... she looks very young. Oh, get over yourself, Malcolm. Anyway I think she’s very pretty. But also that doesn’t really matter. And she has a boyfriend and they’re very happy. They’re very happy dinks. But let’s go to[00:06:31] Malcolm Collins: your- Oh my God, her Substack profile, Reproductive Rights Advocate Reminding You To Take Your Birth Control.[00:06:36] That’s what she does. Also known as the girl with a list. Okay, continue.[00:06:38] Simone Collins: The girl with a list. So in terms of how the content that she, she presents that will dissuade young women old women, a- any woman from- Yeah ... from wanting to have babies is, is sort of, I’ll, I’ll start with some highlights.[00:06:52] Let’s start with s- some highlights, okay? ‘Cause, and these are, like, original clips. She, these are women who’ve gone through this. They’re, this is actual firsthand video footage. This isn’t stuff that’s made up, ‘cause you can literally see it. There’s one where a, a woman, a woman’s insides needed stitches after her baby scratched her from the inside on the way out, ‘cause it had its fingernails grew in, and they do that.[00:07:11] A woman whose baby began to choke on her nipple, and then it just literally fell off because it was so infected at that point from mastitis and other issues. A woman who grew a tumor on her lip the size of her pinky while she was pregnant, because one of the things that can happen when you’re pregnant is to grow benign tunors, tumors.[00:07:26] Uh-huh. A woman who, Oh, well, of course, l- women who’ve lost their hair, their teeth, all their eyelashes. A woman who developed a mutation during pregnancy that made her insensitive to pain meds who had to endure a C-section with no medication. She just eventually passed out from the, from the pain. There’s a woman who went deaf after her kid kissed her on the ear causing what’s called the kiss of death.[00:07:48] And I had to look this up. This is actually a thing. It’s, it’s a cochlear ear kiss injury also known as Reader’s Ear Kiss Syndrome, REKS. Yeah. So, like, don’t let your... We need to, like, not let the kids close to our ears [00:08:00] anymore. There’s a woman whose retina’s detached because she was pushing so hard in labor.[00:08:03] Women whose bodies have become both temporarily and permanently deformed or uglified. We’re talking swollen hands and feet, s- legs, ver- varicose veins That this is a[00:08:11] Malcolm Collins: worth it for a human life. Anybody[00:08:14] Simone Collins: would take these injuries- Popped blood vessels in the eyes ... for their child. I had the popped blood vessels in the eyes.[00:08:18] Remember that time where I had the blood vessels on the podcast? Oh, yeah, you did. I[00:08:20] Malcolm Collins: seem to think that was[00:08:20] Simone Collins: maybe... I know, yeah, and the varicose veins, that’s real.[00:08:22] Malcolm Collins: But every woman has tough pregnancies from what I hear these days. You know, almost... th- I, I occasionally hear of really easy ones, but generally speaking, pregnancies are hard today.[00:08:31] And you know,[00:08:32] Simone Collins: it’s expected to be hard. Today? I think pregnancies have always had their things. Yeah,[00:08:35] Malcolm Collins: they used to be a lot harder. Did you know that on average, women lost one tooth per pregnancy?[00:08:39] Simone Collins: I, I think that’s apocryphal.[00:08:41] Speaker: So I decided to research to see if this is, , an apocryphal old wives’ tale. , First of all, this is way more common a historic story than I thought. , There are proverbs that mean something like, “Gain a child, lose a tooth,” in Danish, in German, in Scandinavian, in Russian, and in Japanese. , And there have been, , studies on this to see if this is accurate.[00:09:07] , There was a landmark 1998 study in The Lancet. There was a large U.S. study by researcher Stephen Russell. , There was , a twin study on this. , And basically what everything found is that it is kind of in-- right. It’s basically right. , It’s not exactly one child, one tooth, , but it’s more children, fewer teeth.[00:09:28] , And the reason for this is, , pregnancy hormones make gums much more reactive to plaque. This causes pr-pregnancy gingivitis in a large percentage of women, often cited as thirty to seventy-five percent or higher. , And repeated episodes of gingivitis across multiple pregnancies can lead to, , deeper infections which lead to the losing of teeth.[00:09:50] , But w-w-- I had no idea. Th-this is wild[00:09:53] Simone Collins: But ye- yeah, I mean, you know, if you’re, if you’re[00:09:56] Malcolm Collins: already- You’re the one who told me.[00:09:57] Simone Collins: No, I didn’t. I never said that. I think that was someone else. Yeah, you[00:09:59] Malcolm Collins: did.[00:09:59] Simone Collins: I think you came home from Natal Con with that but I’m, I’m not sure. But anyway, the... in her content, there are basically four themes. There’s relatively unusual medical conditions from pregnancy and lactation, like uterine prolapse, and apparently when that happens, by the way, you know what you’re supposed to do to fix it?[00:10:15] Malcolm Collins: What?[00:10:16] Simone Collins: Shove it back in. You’re supposed to, you’re supposed to just push it back in.[00:10:20] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:10:21] Simone Collins: Which, I mean, it makes sense. But it seems very uncomfortable. So that, there’s that. And, you know, there are various forms of body horror. Then also just the expenses of labor and delivery, you know, just how ridiculous it is.[00:10:31] And when people go through their itemized bills, that’s an easy thing to go viral on TikTok.[00:10:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a more, yeah. But with a lot of this stuff, it’s like, “This is why you shouldn’t drive,” and it’s just a bunch of pictures of people who got killed in car accidents. And it’s like-[00:10:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, one...[00:10:43] And I’m gonna talk about that, yeah. There’s also poop and pee humor, or, well, and horror, of course. And then super common, like, parenting, pregnancy, and postpartum stuff, like fussy babies who are only calm when they’re bounced, or the rectus abdominis being separated in pregnancy, or swelling, or using an Otriede to suck snot out of a baby’s nose.[00:11:03] Like, that’s terrifying or something. Or-[00:11:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s something that we have to do with a lot of our kids.[00:11:08] Simone Collins: Yeah, like every parent has an Otriede. Like, would you rather have your baby screaming in pain, or y- like, suck out the snot with a tube? There’s a filter. There’s a filter. Or having strangers on the internet jump down your throat just ‘cause you mentioned the word breastfeeding in a post online, or kids making messes around the h- the house and, like, we’re talking the flooding, the vandalism.[00:11:27] A lot of the stuff that she posts that’s, like, kids ruining houses or making big messes is all stuff, honestly, that’s the parents’ fault. Like, you have to learn the hard way to, like, childproof your home, and all of these are, they’re results of not proper childproofing. So a lot of this is actually kind of helpful content, ‘cause it’s like, “Oh, this is something to head off.”[00:11:46] But the reason why this is damaging and not just funny or informative is that- There’s, there, like, it just goes for, like, the, the most common psychological trips your, and tr- sorry, tricks that, that will get you. You know, there’s [00:12:00] one, like, availability heuristic that Yuri and Abigail with these lists are, are making the hazards of parenting and pregnancy look extremely visible and available in people’s minds.[00:12:12] They’re just, like, super top of mind. And it’s, it, it’s gonna make people only think about the negative. Whereas it’s extremely easy to do exactly the same thing Abigail does with other life choices. And that includes especially life choices of people who choose not to have kids. Like, I think you and I have, we follow this, this, basically the equivalent of this genre with hiking- Mm-hmm[00:12:33] and going outdoors with, like, Mr. Ball and- Oh my God,[00:12:35] Malcolm Collins: yes. Mr. Ball and, and everything like that. Exactly. I genuinely think every time I go to the woods, everyone’s gonna disappear.[00:12:39] Simone Collins: I know. I know. But[00:12:41] Malcolm Collins: like- 411, Lore Lodge. Exactly. It’s, like, one of my core categories of content.[00:12:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, so, like, Abigail and Yuri, the girls with the lists, they are that, but for, for pregnancy.[00:12:51] So yeah, and there’s also cosmetic surgery. I, that’s another version of this genre that I love. Like, Wani is a creator whose, whose content I love on this front, ‘cause he specifically covers plastic surgery that goes super wrong in China. Mm ... there’s buying homes. I don’t know if you know, there’s this whole genre of home inspectors uploading their videos.[00:13:09] And they’ll just go through new constructed houses, or just any house, and be like, “Oh, look, this is broken. Oh, like, toilet’s not hanged right.”[00:13:15] Malcolm Collins: Well, actually, you have got me into something interesting here. I would assume, like, just hearing a lot of this to begin with, is that this is a lot of women who have secretly kind of want babies.[00:13:25] They secretly know that their lives will be incomplete without[00:13:28] Simone Collins: them. Well, the point is they ac- no, they have baby fever. The, the[00:13:31] Malcolm Collins: point is- And they, they want to find some way to suppress it or make their terrible life decisions feel justified,[00:13:40] Simone Collins: or- No, no, no. That, that is not, that is not a what if. That is a literally that’s what’s happening.[00:13:43] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. Well, you, you, you, you say[00:13:46] Simone Collins: that, right? Her videos often go... Like, here’s the format she uses, ‘cause again, I’ve watched over four hours of these is cute baby, cute baby video that went viral on TikTok, and then her being like, “Nuh-uh-uh, Zumi here to provide you with your online birth control to stop you or cure your baby fever.”[00:14:00] And like, that’s the whole thing. But- And then she goes into the horror story ...[00:14:02] Malcolm Collins: the, the point I’m making is- Okay ... I could have that impression, and, and it, it is what I would jump to.[00:14:09] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:14:10] Malcolm Collins: But I consume a very similar form of content, and I clearly don’t consume it for that reason. Mm-hmm. I do not consume Mr.[00:14:20] Ballen because I secretly want to jump out of airplanes or-[00:14:24] Simone Collins: Oh, ‘cause you, you crave the... You wanna go backpacking along the[00:14:28] Malcolm Collins: Appalachian Trail. Or become a caver. There, there’s actually... B- because the caving videos are, like, one of my videos that, that I watch a lot of. If[00:14:35] Simone Collins: any of you cave, what? Stop. Stop.[00:14:38] Malcolm Collins: I have never in my entire life seen a tiny hole and felt an urge to shove myself as deep as I can in the tiny hole.[00:14:48] There[00:14:49] Simone Collins: is a- Do you think it’s a fetish, actually? Wait, hold on. When you put it that way.[00:14:52] Malcolm Collins: I c- is it a fetish? Is caving a fetish? I, like, can’t imagine a real human emotion that would lead you to want to do that.[00:14:59] Simone Collins: Well, no. But, like... So I, I... Y- you can also look at those those vacuum bags that people use for sexy times.[00:15:05] And I’m like, okay, well, I can’t imagine myself doing that. I, I just now that you put it that way, I’m like, “Oh.” That could be it. Anyway, keep going. ‘Cause also they’re wet a lot of... Oh, no. Sorry,[00:15:16] Malcolm Collins: Oh, and the horrible ways you die when caving.[00:15:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:15:18] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yep ... and this is the thing. It’s not that I don’t like caves.[00:15:20] Like, I’ve been spelunking to, like, big, nice mapped caves to see a different environment. I have found- Yeah ... that to be a very pleasant and fun experience. Have you,[00:15:29] Simone Collins: have you scuba, have you scuba’d in caves?[00:15:31] Malcolm Collins: I have, I have cave di- d- dived, done cave dives before. You have dived. Which is a very dangerous form of diving.[00:15:37] But-[00:15:37] Simone Collins: That is super dangerous diving ... we, I- Oh my God, I remember, like, snorkeling in the cenotes in the Yucatan and watching, like, I remember watching one guy go down with two extra tanks, and then I was there for, like, two or three hours and he didn’t come out, and I’m like, “Sir.”[00:15:55] Malcolm Collins: But when I have been cave diving, when I have been [00:16:00] spelunking, when people die in these things, at least the videos that I watch, it’s always, “And then they saw a two-foot hole and shoved themselves in it.”[00:16:09] Yeah,[00:16:09] Simone Collins: it’s[00:16:09] Malcolm Collins: like- Like a fricking pelican or some- what, what’s the bird that sticks his head in the sand? Flamingo.[00:16:14] An[00:16:14] Simone Collins: ostrich?[00:16:15] Speaker 2: A man was exploring the Nutty Putty Cave in 2009, and he wanted to go through one of the tightest stretches called the Birth Canal.[00:16:24] Simone Collins: I don’t actually think ostriches- Ostrich,[00:16:25] Malcolm Collins: yeah ...[00:16:26] Simone Collins: they’re, they apocryphy, apoc- apocryphally do that. They don’t actually do that, I think.[00:16:30] This time Sona is right. , And crazily, this apocryphal story goes back to Pliny the Elder[00:16:36] Malcolm Collins: Well, it’s not an apocryphy that idiots in Utah do this all the time.[00:16:41] ... There’s nothing interesting you’re going to see in this little hole. You ding idiot.[00:16:46] Simone Collins: It’s dark. It’s gonna look dark, and there will be darkness.[00:16:50] Malcolm Collins: Oh. You’re not gonna find some what... Like, get your f*****g head out. But the thing is- ... is I have to ask myself, how many of the women watching this are trying to suppress the instinct, trying to cure FOMO?[00:17:03] How many of the women who are watching this are like me? And, and then there’s the other category- Schadenfreude.[00:17:09] Simone Collins: I think there, there’s a lot of schadenfreude for, like, DINK couples. You, you will enjoy your DINK lifestyle even if you never want kids even more if you’re just watching[00:17:19] Malcolm Collins: people who chose- Yeah, but I have another type of schadenfreude that I watch videos all the time for, which could be another desire for this.[00:17:25] It could be cucking-[00:17:25] Simone Collins: Okay. Okay ...[00:17:26] Malcolm Collins: you here.[00:17:27] Simone Collins: Go on[00:17:27] Malcolm Collins: I love watching incredibly misogynistic red pill content about- ... terrible experiences men have had dating and being married. You know, like MGTOW content and stuff like that. Like that- Okay ... Sandman on it, like, I’ve watched his videos, you know, pushing, like, MGTOW lifestyles and stuff.[00:17:42] He’s not even that bad. Oh,[00:17:43] Simone Collins: but Sandman’s awesome. No, don’t come for Sandman.[00:17:45] Malcolm Collins: But there’s other, there’s a whole category, and we, we actually utilize it in our title cards, where it is sad woman who made a mistake. But this- Are[00:17:53] Simone Collins: we doing that for this? No, I, I think I should just use a normal picture of Abigail ‘[00:17:57] Malcolm Collins: cause she’s pretty.[00:17:58] This category of video I watch not to, like, give myself like, n- a lack of FOMO around dating, but because I like to hear how much better I did in the dating market than all of these people- Uh-huh ... and about their terrible lives compared to just finding a good woman and treating her well, right? Like, you, you, you hear the stories, you hear I mean, it’s as obvious between the lines as it is when you have one of those women out there screeching about why the fifth guy didn’t like them just because X, Y, and Z, totally insane things.[00:18:30] And on a lot of these, you know,[00:18:32] Simone Collins: in- Oh, have you heard the new thing on X that’s trending is hiplets? Have you heard about the hiplet controversy?[00:18:37] Malcolm Collins: What, what is this?[00:18:39] Simone Collins: I guess some women’s hips kind of divot inward above- Okay ... the hip bone. And some men are like, “I don’t, I’m just not into that.[00:18:46] Like, I don’t wanna date women with hiplets.” And women are like, “How dare you? I can’t control my morphology.[00:18:52] That’s how I’m born.” And men are like, “Oh, really? ‘Cause you didn’t have that reaction when I was under six feet and you wouldn’t talk to me.” So there’s a lot of smugness going on online. But yeah, that’s also a thing.[00:19:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, weird. Weird. Hiplet. Do I find it attr- unattractive? I, I can’t even imagine what they’re talking about. Hold on. Let me think. D- I’ll, I’ll make a judgment on hiplet. Just Google hiplet. Yeah. Or hip[00:19:10] Simone Collins: divot. I’m just sending you an X post.[00:19:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you gotta send me an X post. This is not, it’s not coming through, so.[00:19:15] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s, it’s obscure enough where... But anyway, this is one of the... It’s been trending on X, like, all weekend. It’s on WhatsApp.[00:19:21] Malcolm Collins: Ew.[00:19:22] Simone Collins: Oh, wow. So that was a reaction[00:19:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that is not good-looking.[00:19:28] Simone Collins: Okay. I see- ... where you stand on this.[00:19:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you, you definitely don’t have those, I’ll tell you that.[00:19:35] Simone Collins: No, I don’t. I don’t. Where, w- wow. Okay. I like your theory, though. I, I think that there’s the, I think her content does really well because it does fit a bunch of different interests, right?[00:19:47] There’s the shodan fraud, there’s the smug my life is so good feeling. There’s the I really want a baby, no, I, I don’t want a baby ‘cause I’m an independent woman who’s never gonna have a baby, or I can’t have a baby ‘cause I can’t find a [00:20:00] good guy. So this, all of this, all of this can be satisfied by Girl With a List posts.[00:20:05] And it, and we have all these other genres that make us very happy with our lives. I love to watch the hiking videos. I love to watch the cosmetic surgery gone wrong videos. I love to watch the buying home gone wrong videos. There’s also people who do, like, eating out at restaurants, like all the stuff that’s going on behind the scenes you don’t wanna know about.[00:20:23] And so you can- Oh, God. Disgusting ... you can effectively, yeah. Are[00:20:25] Malcolm Collins: you glad we don’t eat out?[00:20:26] Simone Collins: Very, actually. The, you, you can basically, though, my point being, you, you can develop an aversion to, or even a phobia of pretty much anything by giving yourself to sufficient exposure to its hazards, just because it becomes so, so available in, in your, your brain.[00:20:44] And this genre can be a form of opt-in brainwashing. Though, in a worse case scenario, they could be a form of unintentional algorithmically led brainwashing. Mm. And especially given the way that TikTok works, th- they, you, you get into it, you comment on this positively at one point, and you end up getting in this engagement loop with this kind of content and just seeing more and more of it, even if you didn’t necessarily want to brainwash yourself into being afraid of having a baby.[00:21:14] Then there’s also[00:21:15] Malcolm Collins: just- Well, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t w- mean to become brainwashed of going into American national parks. But you watch enough, you know, Lore Lodge, 411, Mr. Ballen- ... and you’re just like and I’ve had panic moments because of that. Like, when we’re playing with our kids in the woods and one of them- Yeah[00:21:30] decides he’s gonna go home without- Yeah ... telling me.[00:21:33] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:21:33] Malcolm Collins: And I’m running around screaming because-[00:21:36] Simone Collins: Because that’s always, always with the kid ones. It’s like, well, the kid was just with us one moment, we’re all walking down the trail, and then the next moment they’re gone and we never heard from them again.[00:21:43] Yeah. Like, that’s always the way it goes. The kid was right there. The kid was right there. Then they, they put up this massive search party. I don’t, if Mr. Ballen got a dollar for every time he said this massive search party, he’d be, he’d be a millionaire.[00:21:58] Malcolm Collins: I haven’t watched much Mr. Ballen in a couple years, to be honest.[00:22:01] Simone Collins: I had to stop watching his content because I came across one video where a baby got hurt and, you know, I can’t handle it.[00:22:07] Malcolm Collins: Oh. Well, I, I think he sort of ran out of good mysteries, though, I’m gonna be honest.[00:22:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was like, it got, it got to, like, very,[00:22:12] Malcolm Collins: There’s always-[00:22:13] Simone Collins: He was, he had to start digging into crime reporting, and that’s where it just gets really depressing, instead of like, ooh, what happened in the- Ah, National Park aliens and[00:22:20] Malcolm Collins: Bigfoot[00:22:20] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:22:20] Like if[00:22:20] Malcolm Collins: you, if you ever have your mystery phase where you like crime mysteries, what you’ll realize is you’ll kind of go through all the good ones in about a year and a half. And there’s only- I,[00:22:31] Simone Collins: it’s a way... We had a great run, Malcolm. It was, it was beautiful. I remember-[00:22:34] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then it’s just like- All the trips that the, the stressful trips[00:22:36] rehashing or minor updates or new, new theories, and at that point. It’s the same with good conspiracy theories. There’s only so many, and then you[00:22:43] Simone Collins: run out it, it, everything with this genre. Plastic surgery that’s botched. All, all of the snark, all of the fundie snark, we went through that so fast.[00:22:50] There’s onl- only so many very public fundie families that people can make fun of. Oh-[00:22:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:22:55] Simone Collins: Harry and Meghan snark. I follow most of the major channels. I just, in, I...[00:23:00] Malcolm Collins: I,[00:23:00] Simone Collins: I was so into- They can only do so many bad things, you know? ... Warhammer[00:23:02] Malcolm Collins: lore for a while.[00:23:03] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah,[00:23:04] Malcolm Collins: yeah. And then I just knew all the Warhammer lore-[00:23:06] and there was nothing more to learn[00:23:09] Simone Collins: Ah, so you just started developing your own religion that’s very Warhammer inspired. Oh, what are we gonna name one of our kids Mechanicus? Oh, you were thinking Crypteia Mechanicus.[00:23:17] Malcolm Collins: Crypteia Mechanicus, our, our next daughter, yeah.[00:23:22] Simone Collins: Okay. All right. Anyway.[00:23:24] Malcolm Collins: It’s[00:23:24] Simone Collins: a beautiful[00:23:24] Malcolm Collins: name- Let’s get on[00:23:25] Simone. It’s a beautiful name.[00:23:27] Simone Collins: Beautiful name, beautiful name. I, w- I wanna get back to the point of the, so there’s one, availability heuristic. There’s also loss aversion, and it’s just important to remind you that, you don’t need to be reminded, but people listening may not be aware that humans are generally way more concerned about losses than gains.[00:23:46] They, they generally weigh potential losses about 1.5 to 2.5 times as much as equally sized gains. So like The, all this stuff isn’t just like, “Oh, okay, well I’m gonna knock [00:24:00] down my interest in pregnancy by one.” No, it’s gonna be by two, even though, you know, other things will only... The, the viral kid video that’s so cute is only gonna knock up your interest one.[00:24:10] So, Abigail is more than canceling out any baby fever that she sparks or that is sparked by the viral baby videos that she’s sent when, in where people summon her. Wait, wait,[00:24:20] Malcolm Collins: does she really? Is this, like, true or...?[00:24:22] Simone Collins: Well, I’m, I’m talking about how loss aversion works in general.[00:24:25] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:24:27] Okay, continue.[00:24:27] Simone Collins: Right? Because, you know, take, take, you know, one token. You have a chance of winning one token or not losing two and a half tokens. Or, sorry not losing two tokens. People are two and a half more times, whatever. You know what I’m talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I link to a bunch of this research in my show notes.[00:24:43] You can go read about it if you want. Well, I mean,[00:24:43] Malcolm Collins: she’s helping us. She’s clearing out the gene pool for our kids.[00:24:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, look, if I- spoiler alert, but in the end, I, I think she’s doing amazing work, and I think she’s very ethical, and I like her a lot, so. It’s not just a parasocial relationship. I think she’s doing good work, but we’ll get to that.[00:24:58] But anyway, this means that people are, are, are extra, extra influenced against this. And it’s, it’s kind of even worse than that because both Abigail and Yuri can’t seem to even wrap their heads around, like, the, the rewards of parenting at all. Abigail’s most commonly cited argument is kids are cute.[00:25:16] Whereas Y- Yuri’s list at the, at the end of it she has her, like, whatever, 30 pros after 200 and something, I think over 250 cons. They include child and tax return benefits and tiny everything, which Like first, the tax return benefits are like very, very little considering the costs of children.[00:25:38] Quote, “You cannot get drafted while pregnant,” end quote. So there’s that. You can’t bribe them with candy. Or sorry, you can bribe with them with candy. It was one of her pros, but you and I both know that you can’t.[00:25:49] Malcolm Collins: You can’t. With a toddler. No, we... Actually, one of our kids hates candy. We can threaten him with candy.[00:25:50] “Eat your candy.” “No.” No. Literally. Literally. I should try to, I’ll try[00:25:50] Simone Collins: to film him. Try to give him candy tonight. Yes, for this episode so people can see we’re not messing[00:25:51] Malcolm Collins: with[00:26:05] them.[00:26:05] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I’ll get proof. I need to hold up like the day’s newspaper to show it’s real. And also, if you raise them right, people will praise you for it, which is so crazy. Like, that’s... To, to think that you would wanna raise kids right to get praise for it by other people. Yeah, yeah, they’re just like th- these people are very different.[00:26:25] But[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: they have no external reality, no civilizational stake, no plan for the future of humanity. It is literally just about how does this make me feel-[00:26:36] Simone Collins: Yeah, or[00:26:36] Malcolm Collins: how does it make you- ... and how[00:26:37] Simone Collins: does[00:26:37] Malcolm Collins: it make other people treat me?[00:26:38] Simone Collins: Tiny human[00:26:38] Malcolm Collins: being. They have no larger civilizational framework, right? Like, no sense of purpose really.[00:26:44] Yeah. It’s just autopilot really.[00:26:46] Simone Collins: It’s gnarly, yeah. So I think, like, the, the big thing here is that I think this is part of a larger theme of why mental health is plummeting, which is people are way too in their heads and overthinking things. And I think Abigail, more than Yuri fundamentally gets people to overthink pregnancy and child-rearing.[00:27:08] Like, I didn’t think about any of the complications that would come with pregnancy before I got pregnant. I- Really? I was... No, no. Like, my, my plan with everything is just like- I’m not gonna think through the consequences at all. Which I guess... I mean, we’re trying to be as responsible as we can, of course, but, like, when it comes to the downsides- Mm[00:27:28] or the risks or the fears, I’m just like, look, I- I’m aware of, like, the broad statistics. Those look fine to me. I’m willing to take those on, and I’m not going to educate myself about everything possible that can go wrong with this. Remember, like, with, with childbirth and stuff, for the first time around when I was like, “I’m gonna do unmedicated labor,” I was like, well, okay, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna, like- Yeah[00:27:48] take childbirthing courses or read a book or anything. Like, that’s just gonna get me too into my head. Like, look it’s just gonna hurt. It hurt a lot. I, you know, hurt so much that I threw up and all the other things. But you[00:27:59] Malcolm Collins: were in [00:28:00] labor for, like, 48 hours. Like, you[00:28:01] Simone Collins: are-[00:28:02] Malcolm Collins: It was not great ... a worst[00:28:03] Simone Collins: case example.[00:28:03] Yeah. Yeah, and, and, yeah, like, induced labor that was horrible. And yeah, it was... But, like, I, I think it would’ve been worse, ‘cause I’ve learned this the hard way, s- one of the worst forms of pain is anticipating pain. It’s not like the thing itself. I can’t remember the pain. I remember throwing up from it.[00:28:18] I remember thinking, like, “I m- I only exist with the pain, and this, this will be everything forever.” Like, there, there was nothing in my mind but the pain, and I was sitting with it, and it was, it was what it was, and I was just ready to just keep going. The, but I don’t remember it. I don’t remember what it felt like.[00:28:33] Like, why, how could I remember that? So I think that ultimately was mu- a lot healthier for me, and all this overthinking is really not helping people. And Robert Sapolsky, you know, who does the great courses, course on stress and cortisol really insightfully explains how, like, our stress system was not developed for humans who have, like, metacognition, who can, like, literally build endogenous stress- stressors merely by thinking about something, right?[00:29:03] Like, the gazelle is chased by the, what, lion, lioness, and it runs, and it’s very stressed- Mm ... and the cortisol’s coursing through its veins, and then the, the lion catches another gazelle and eats it and then the gazelle goes back to eating grass- Yeah ... and it’s fine, right? Like-[00:29:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:29:18] Simone Collins: it, that’s... And then there’s no more cortisol, whereas, like, the human, Will just think about something that could possibly potentially happen in the future, but there’s no actual reason it will happen.[00:29:27] And they’re- ... experiencing the same level of cortisol in their system. And it is chronically very unhealthy, and I, I don’t appreciate that there’s a lot of content out there that feeds into that, and that people let themselves feed into that. And I don’t think you should, or anyone should indulge in that because it is, it is both unhealthy and not, not, not productive.[00:29:46] You sh- if you’re concerned about something, build a contingency plan for it, reduce the odds, but like don’t think about it. But anyway, overthinking about pregnancy could probably be contributing to a rise in phobia about pregnancy, which is known as tocophobia, which is a weird name.[00:30:04] Malcolm Collins: Tocophobia?[00:30:04] Tocophobia. Well, a lot of people have that. I mean, you, again, wanted to get your tubes tied for no reason.[00:30:08] Simone Collins: Yeah, that was more just, like, euphoria. That wasn’t like I was afraid of being pregnant. I, I mean, clearly I’ve never been afraid of being pregnant. I was just like, “I’m super happy to be alone forever,” and you know, you know how I hate people.[00:30:21] So that was fun. And it was a fun idea. But no, like I, I did not have that. But it is actually pretty prevalent. This 2017 systematic review of 33 studies looking at a total of 854,000 pregnant women worldwide estimated that there’s a sort of pooled prevalence of tocophobia between, oh, like around f- 14% with individual study estimates ranging from about 3.7% to 43%.[00:30:48] And I bet a lot of that had to do with the, the population sampled, and I bet the populations that are consuming content from the Girls with the Lists is, is more closer to the 43% end of the spectrum.[00:31:00] Malcolm Collins: Wait, 14% of women have a fear of pregnancy?[00:31:04] Simone Collins: Yeah. M- just sort of like roughly per this like meta, meta sy- system- systematic meta review and it, yeah, 14%.[00:31:12] And keep in mind, this is a 2017 systematic review of 33 studies. All those studies were conducted before 2017, obviously. And these two young women only began posting around 2021 and after. So and I bet it’s a lot worse. And it’s not great. Yeah. So- Well- ... you know ...[00:31:33] Malcolm Collins: it, it’s interesting to look at her Substack as well to get an idea of just like what goes through her mind, what she sits around thinking about all day.[00:31:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:31:41] Malcolm Collins: So if we’re just reading them like in backwards chronological order, it’s Girls Don’t Want to Be Someone’s Wife Anymore, Kids Ruin Everything- ... Everything That Happened in the World of Birth Control Last Month, Pill Pop Culture, The Weekly Dose Everything That Happened This Week in the World of Birth Control, The Ultimate [00:32:00] Nude, It, it, Lorde’s new album features her IUD.[00:32:05] Simone Collins: Look, okay, I think Abigail, she’s just living a very happy dink life. And I think she also could be an amazing parent. She had two siblings. She has a- ample memories of being pretty naughty as a child, driving her parents pretty nuts as a child doing pretty naughty things as a child, stuff that would qualify for her own videos.[00:32:22] So she, she knows what it’s like to be a demon child sometimes. I think all, all children do, except for me ‘cause I was perfect. Oh, no wait, I scared my parents crapless when I starved myself. Never mind. But then she- then she doesn’t really talk about teens, she just talks about toddlers. She lives in downtown Los Angeles.[00:32:39] She started posting these in 2021. To give you sort of like Picture of her pain tolerance- Mm ... she thinks that getting an IUD was the most painful thing she has ever experienced. Which is not comfort- I’ve not gotten an IUD before, but from what I’ve heard from other people, it could be, it could be pretty uncomfortable, but it, bir- you know, birth is more.[00:32:59] Other things are more. She, she hates cleaning. She hates cooking. She loves playing video games. Has a boyfriend, as far as I understand. She talks about him sometimes. And[00:33:07] Malcolm Collins: she really loves her cats. I will say she, she does find interesting stuff. I was unaware of this. Did you know that Flo, the period tracking app, has been proven to be collecting user data and sharing it with Meta?[00:33:16] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:33:18] Malcolm Collins: I didn’t know this.[00:33:21] Simone Collins: Seems reasonable.[00:33:21] Malcolm Collins: She says she’s been using Flo and is disgusted by this information.[00:33:25] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, she’s, she’s on like the, she lives in downtown Los Angeles. She’s a, she’s a dink. Like, well, she’s going to have to say the progressive things. She also has merch.[00:33:33] They’re, they’re all in the like... They’re, they’re sweatshirts, all of them. Some have hoodies. Some are crew necks. There’s the $60 divorce your Republican husband XL crew neck sweatshirt with a wolf on it. Sold out. The $50 dump your Republican boyfriend medium large hunting camo crew neck sweatshirt.[00:33:49] Dump your Republican[00:33:50] Malcolm Collins: boyfriend.[00:33:51] Simone Collins: Oh, my God. Also sold out. The $68 dump your Republican boyfriend XL green crew neck. The $58 dump your Republican boyfriend XL pink hoodie. What’s weird is all of these are for larger people. There’s not a single small item in the entire shop, and she’s an ex- extra smell. Extra smell.[00:34:09] She’s extra small. So I don’t know.[00:34:13] Malcolm Collins: She, she had a map of the best and worst states to have a baby, and it’s just like all Democrat states are ranked as good. All Republican states ranked as bad. Duh. P- Pennsylvania is ranked as good. To have a[00:34:22] Simone Collins: baby. Yeah.[00:34:23] To have a baby. Yeah. ‘Cause I think we’re at like 24 weeks for abortions.[00:34:31] Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s why it’s ranked that way. Yeah,[00:34:33] Simone Collins: duh. Because it’s to have a baby, not abortion. Of course, Malcolm. Gee whiz. Gosh. Yeah, she’s, she’s- How[00:34:37] Malcolm Collins: it was calculated: WalletHub ranked the best and worst states to have a baby by evaluating all 50 states and the District of Columbia across four categories: cost, healthcare, baby friendliness, and family friendliness, using 31 weighted metrics scored on a 100-point scale[00:34:50] Simone Collins: It’s abortion, Malcolm.[00:34:52] I mean, it could also be, I mean, keep in mind, like, in the state, in this state at least too, and, and this is how it is in many states, not all necessarily Democratic states, but generally in the United States, you, if you are at, near, or below the poverty level, especially as a woman, get food assistance, free healthcare, housing assistance.[00:35:15] So all of those labor and delivery charges from the hospital are totally waived. And that’s really helpful, obviously. And,[00:35:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:35:25] Simone Collins: Yeah. Anyway but in terms of how I feel about this, how I imagine you will feel about this too, is that what Abigail is doing is fine. She’s really clear. One thing you don’t know this, but, like, in her content, she is super clear to not shame parents, like any of the parents she’s covering.[00:35:43] She’s super empathetic toward them, and I really can’t say the same about many parents online, even like very pro-natalist and pro-kid parents. And she’s also way more ethical than your typical content creator with the clips that she uses. [00:36:00] She told NBC, quote, “If I’m going to do a video about bodies in particular and show someone’s body, I’m going to make sure that I have consent from that mother first.”[00:36:09] Like if she posted a video and she made this acknowledgement like, “This is my body. It’s pretty crazy. The things that have happened to my body is wild.” She also said, “I have such respect and a reverence and admiration for the people who do choose to go through th- with this because it’s a huge choice,” Porter said.[00:36:24] “I hope people will stop treating having children as an impulse decision that everyone does. I think that’s better for us and also for the children because if every child that was ever born had parents that really wanted them, I think the world would be a better place.” I 100% agree with that.[00:36:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I- I mean, her framework for understanding why somebody wants children is really messed up, but it’s completely in line with the dominant cultural subset- Yeah[00:36:48] so you can’t really blame her for it. You super can’t blame her. These people have no idea why they’re alive, why they should continue living, what’s the point of life, right? Like, they’re just like, So they can only relate things in, in, or they only can relate to things in how those things relate to their personal happiness, basically.[00:37:05] Yeah.[00:37:06] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, is this gonna be uncomfortable? Well, let’s not do it then. Which is a thing, but I, I genuinely believe that- Like, I would be fine if someone was like, “Look, you think you wanna become a parent? Watch five hours of Abigail Porter’s content and then decide.” And if someone can- I don’t[00:37:23] Malcolm Collins: know about that.[00:37:24] That’s- No ... that’s, that’s, n- because her content isn’t representative.[00:37:27] Simone Collins: You haven’t watched[00:37:28] Malcolm Collins: it, dude. Yeah. You haven’t watched it But if you had watched it earlier, you may have had a lot more- No.[00:37:32] Simone Collins: Mm-mm ...[00:37:33] Malcolm Collins: trepidations about going into pregnancy.[00:37:34] Simone Collins: No.[00:37:35] Malcolm Collins: Not at all. Well, I think you’re a tough woman, Simone, and I don’t think that you’re representative of the average female.[00:37:40] Simone Collins: Look, I mean, I, again, I, I just gave my whole spiel on how I think overthinking things and trying to figure everything out is not good for you. But in the end, look, Malcolm, I’ve been very clear that I’m willing to do pretty much anything. I, I, and I, I’m not gonna actively go into something like a pregnancy where I have a high likelihood of dying because then I can’t be there to raise the kids, right?[00:38:00] But, like, I will go through pretty much anything up to that. And a- as long as I can keep caring for the kids, obviously. And I, I mean, like I, I, I, I just, I agree with Abigail. I think that if, if you’re not willing to undertake the risks and the hardship, then you should not be a parent. And that’s just how it is.[00:38:21] And I think that, it- Abigail’s content is really useful in dissuading people from having kids for trivial reasons, and she actually helps actual parents head off medical issues. Again, that same NBC article they wrote, “Brig Stewart, who is now pregnant with her second child, described the list videos as a powerful tool fuls- for self-advocacy.[00:38:40] She said, ‘I was totally shocked by all the things that could happen to you, and that’s even in today’s modern world, which is shocking with the amount of research and access that we have at our fingertips,’ Brig Stewart said. ‘There’s no, there’s so many different types of complications, and it can be really brutal to women, so I was like, this is empowering.’”[00:38:56] And look, you and I were just talking about a case in which someone we know has, has had to really do a lot of self-advocacy in a hospital situation, and only through their own self-advocacy did they get treatment that actually made a huge difference, and it may be the difference between life and death, or a functional life- Yeah[00:39:13] And, and, you know, forever not functional life. So, you know, it’s, it’s not bad for people to know what can go wrong, or like to recognize, oh, like for example, if I started getting a growth the size of a fingertip on my lip, I would not know what that was and probably wait longer than I, I should have.[00:39:29] Whereas now I know that there’s such a thing as, like, benign pregnancy tumors, and I would just be like, “Look, I think this is...” And I’d go right to the right specialist and try to head it off before it got giant, right? Like, this is good. It’s not bad. And in terms of our viewers or people themselves, so let’s say you’re a young woman watching this or you’re a woman who wants to maybe have kids watching this who’s like, “Yeah, now I’m afraid of being pregnant,” or a young man who’s dating or interested in a young woman who’s terrified of being pregnant, who doesn’t wanna have kids because of content like this.[00:39:59] I would just [00:40:00] say, because this is what you did with me, Malcolm, have a logical conversation about the actual risks and about equivalent risks that they take or that you take in your everyday life through your hobbies.[00:40:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It’s better- But this is assuming you have an autistic wife. What a normal woman’s going to do with this information is leverage it to get crazy good treatment while she’s pregnant, which they do.[00:40:21] Do you, do[00:40:21] Simone Collins: you wanna marry that woman? Do you wanna enter that? Like...[00:40:25] Malcolm Collins: A lot of guys are stuck because they were stupid And they didn’t know to only marry autists. I love that we have this giant fan base of autistic wives who,[00:40:34] Simone Collins: like- Isn’t that amazing? They, we’re out there. We are a legion.[00:40:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we are a legion.[00:40:38] No, they’re like all of Simone’s, like, best friends now are our fans who are like, And you used to have, like, friends before we started the podcast, and now your friends since the podcast have all been these autistic women who y- f- found him fr- through the podcast.[00:40:53] Simone Collins: It’s true. All, all the, all the women who live rent-free in my brain are podcast listeners.[00:40:57] You may be listening right now and not realize how, how much I think about you. I just don’t have time to write. It’s, that’s, that’s crappy of me. But anyway, yeah, it, we’re amazing. But I, I really, like really, d- if you cannot have a conversation with a woman and be like, “Look, I know you’d like to get this cosmetic procedure done.[00:41:14] I know you love to backpack. Like, let’s talk about that. You like to eat out. You wanna know what happens when people eat out?” Like, I just think giving this pers- some perspective would be very helpful, and also doing the thing that the, the... What, what is your objective function? What is your life actually about?[00:41:30] In the end, you just gave me bigger things to care about because you allowed me to decide for myself, you empowered me to decide for myself what I actually cared about, what I valued and what I wanted to maximize with life. And suddenly, when my life wasn’t any longer about, well, I just want to avoid things that are unpleasant, which is kind of the societal default, as you said-[00:41:53] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm[00:41:53] Simone Collins: I, I was kind of willing and able to do pretty much anything. I mean, I’ve... Even this year, we’ve, we’ve done a whole new level of stuff that’s otherwise would’ve been, like, impossible in the past couple of years.[00:42:02] Malcolm Collins: What I wonder is, does she have baby fever? I mean, probably, yes, because that’s why she’s still doing this.[00:42:06] Simone Collins: I don’t think so. Yeah. She, she has two cats. I think one’s named Willow. So[00:42:09] Malcolm Collins: she’s masturbating the baby fever with the cats.[00:42:12] Simone Collins: Maybe. A- and, and, a- well, I think there’s there’s plenty of rumors. I think for a while, like, in her videos she’s like, “And I still do not have kids.” So I think some rumor spread at some point of like, “Oh, Abigail Porter had kids, or had a, had a baby but tried to hide[00:42:25] Malcolm Collins: it.”[00:42:25] No, but I mean, that’s such the thing, though, for this sort of crowd, right? We have a whole nother thing[00:42:30] Simone Collins: of- Probably, yeah. Yeah. A whole nother thing ...[00:42:31] Malcolm Collins: where they’re all like, “Men are terrible. Men are the worst.”[00:42:34] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:42:35] Malcolm Collins: Uh-oh. Well...[00:42:37] Simone Collins: Ugh, I know. Anyway, though, I think it’s good. I think it’s positive. I mean, what, what advice would you give to a young man?[00:42:43] And, and s- aside from lowering his expectations, oh my God[00:42:47] Malcolm Collins: I mean, if you’re, if you’re with a woman who doesn’t wanna have kids, th- that should be established early in a relationship, and just get rid of her, and constantly make it clear to her early in the relationship that this is not a small thing for you.[00:42:56] This is, like, the core thing for you. This is your core purpose in life or part of your purpose in life. And I was incredibly clear about this with Simone, and it’s been increasingly clear to me how clear I was from reading her diaries.[00:43:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘[00:43:12] Malcolm Collins: Cause I was going through them again recently, and,[00:43:13] Simone Collins: But you gotta...[00:43:14] Okay, I got... You have to put your money where your mouth is, and that’s one thing that Malcolm did that... Like, ‘cause look, my, my barrier to entry here was high. I was really unwilling to, super unwilling to have kids.[00:43:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing that really gets it for feminists. If they’re like, “Well, then you have to do all the work to take care of the kid,” and it’s like, “Okay, so you’re gonna support the family,” right?[00:43:36] Like, because... A- and if they’re like, “No, no, no, no, I need you as the man to support the family,” and at that point it’s just like- Well,[00:43:42] Simone Collins: yeah, but now you know you can’t fudge ... this[00:43:44] Malcolm Collins: makes no sense. Like, you want me to treat you like a child, right? Like your entire life, right?[00:43:48] Simone Collins: Like- Look, but no, no, no, but that’s not...[00:43:49] But see, that’s the thing, is that’s not the way it is for most women. The way it is for most women is, “I have my career. I love my career. I don’t wanna give it up.” That, that, it, that just is. I... Be fair, right? I mean, [00:44:00] like, I think women who want to be a trad wife are-[00:44:02] Malcolm Collins: No. No ...[00:44:02] Simone Collins: more comfortable.[00:44:03] Malcolm Collins: I, I disagree. I think a lot of women just want, like, a rich guy and, like, a nice life, and that’s really what they’re in it for, and they don’t really care about...[00:44:11] Like, they, they find the idea mortifying that they have to keep working.[00:44:19] Simone Collins: Actually, with the rise of AI, that’s gonna be more common. Pe- women are gonna start treating their careers as find, attach yourself to a man who is capable of making money with AI. Mm-hmm ... this is not to dunk on women with AI. Actually, there’s a lot of pe- y- women who listen to this podcast who are amazing with AI.[00:44:35] But the propensity of the average woman to take and run with AI is- Are[00:44:40] Malcolm Collins: there? Most of our female fans- ... lower ... I do not think use AI that much. We’ve got Leaflet, and that’s about it.[00:44:46] Simone Collins: People I talk to are. Yeah,[00:44:47] Malcolm Collins: okay.[00:44:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, like a lot. But, you know, those are the ones who are online and chatting with me, so, like, it makes sense.[00:44:52] Yeah.[00:44:52] Malcolm Collins: What’s really cool, women, is AI can help you think.[00:44:56] Simone Collins: Shut up, Malcolm.[00:44:58] Malcolm Collins: I- It can fact check whether you’re being rational if you use a base model with the right fact-checking prompt to not get you into a loop of self-affirmation[00:45:11] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm What? Nothing, I love you. Oh![00:45:12] Malcolm Collins: What?[00:45:14] Simone Collins: You are...[00:45:19] What[00:45:20] Malcolm Collins: is this? W- what are you-[00:45:21] Simone Collins: It’s nothing. It’s nothing, Malcolm. It’s absolutely nothing. You will see no consequences for your actions.[00:45:31] I love you, and that’s, that’s it for tonight. I was thinking I can m- make you green beans with some garlic and chili oil.[00:45:38] Malcolm Collins: That[00:45:38] Simone Collins: sounds really good ... with maybe a couple, just, like, two of those little Vietnamese banh xa for dinner.[00:45:44] Malcolm Collins: Very good. You know me, I don’t want that much.[00:45:46] Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, figured it kind of summery but not too heavy.[00:45:50] All righty.[00:45:51] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:45:51] Simone Collins: I love you, and-[00:45:52] Malcolm Collins: Oh, and we can make some other types of small meats, because I’ve noticed that small meats are something I want with a lot of dishes Small meats. You know, like it w- Small meats ... well, you were looking at Korean meatballs- Okay ... but they were, like, pre-made, and I was like, “What do we have around?”[00:46:04] Well, I[00:46:04] Simone Collins: still have a bunch of Burmese chicken, is, like, sort of that fine distributed chicken, but that goes better over, like, a rice or something.[00:46:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, or something heavier. But, like, a, a small banh xa type thing. Like, other options that are, like... Shut your wing.[00:46:21] Simone Collins: Remember when our kids... ‘Cause we have a, we...[00:46:23] It’s for context. In, in our attic, we keep baskets of themed toys, and Malcolm learned that you can buy you can buy Hot Wheels cars in bulk off eBay, like, by the pound. And once you, like, shake out all the sand, ‘cause they’ve all been, like, abandoned in sandboxes and fished out by some family as they, like, do an estate sale.[00:46:41] But once you, like, get all the sand out, they’re really decent. So we have, like, a bag full s- of Hot Wheel cars, which we call the small cars, and then we have a bag of, like, big cars that we’ve accumulated over time. And they used to call small cars fwa cars. Do you remember?[00:46:55] Malcolm Collins: Fwa? Fwa[00:46:56] Simone Collins: cars. Yeah. Why? ‘Cause they’re f- weird.[00:47:00] Malcolm Collins: Idiots? Okay.[00:47:01] Simone Collins: But remember they used to call They thought that the, the word commercial... They kept being like, “It’s a cover martial,” and I had no idea what they were talking about until we discovered that it was their word for commercial. All right. All right, we gotta, we gotta go. I- Yep ... love[00:47:17] Malcolm Collins: you. I love[00:47:17] Simone Collins: you.[00:47:18] Goodbye. Not knowing what you’re gonna get is I think what makes it so addictive with the video generation. Yeah. Yeah, you don’t know- You’re like, “Is this gonna work?” And then you realize, “Oh, I should have given this negative prompt,” or, “I should have m- made this detail clearer.” And then-[00:47:33] Malcolm Collins: And then you can get really fun stuff.[00:47:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:47:35] Malcolm Collins: Oh, God. You get super fun stuff. These glasses are just so messed up. Where are the... Where are my glasses?[00:47:40] Simone Collins: Have you checked the kid room where you were all day yesterday taking care of the kids? ‘Cause that’s probably where they are. You probably took them off in frustration at some point. Actually- Oh, you’re going for it.[00:47:50] Okay. Okay[00:47:52] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God, here they are[00:47:54] Simone Collins: Wait, where? Where were they?[00:47:56] Malcolm Collins: They had fallen under a table[00:47:58] Simone Collins: What? That looked ridiculous. My glasses. My glasses. Which is out completely the same glasses. O- the other ones were just too... I[00:48:00][00:48:05] can clean them. You seem[00:48:09] to[00:48:13] mind it more than I do. I swept out the, like, shed and the chicken coop yesterday, and they are literally covered in poop, but I can still kind of see, so I don’t mind. Whereas, like, you have one bit of dust on your glasses and you can’t stand it.[00:48:30] Speaker 3: I got you some candy, Toasty. I want candy. Please eat the candy, Toasty. Please eat it. Eat the candy, Toasty. I- Eat the candy ... want to eat the candy. Toasty has to eat the candy. Toast- yeah, he has to eat the candy. I want- Because he didn’t eat his dinner. Yeah, Toasty,[00:48:45] you didn’t eat your dinner, so you gotta eat the candy. Here, I’ll make him eat it. You gonna eat the candy? He’s not gonna have any choice. No, I can put it in the snack thing. I will[00:48:56] eat my dinner. You will? You promise? You promise to eat your dinner, or you’re gonna have to eat the candy. What? No. You promise to eat your dinner? I will make him. You’re not g- Here, well, let’s get him and make him eat the candy. Ra, ra, ra, ra, ra. Oh, God. Okay, Toasty. Are you gonna go eat the dinner, you promise?[00:49:06] You’re gonna eat your cheese? Cheese. Okay. Thank you, Toasty. Put it in your mouth right now. Otherwise, you’ll have to eat the candy. Okay, here we go. Okay, Toasty. Wow. I want candy. Have another bite, or you’re gonna have to eat candy. You don’t w- oh, thank you, Toasty. I want- We love you, Toasty. You’re a good kid[00:49:23] Speaker 4: one. Candy. Someone candy, someone This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe