All right, here we go. Quiet! Roll up! Hello and welcome to The Big Picture Podcast, where we take a look at the latest movie news, the films of yesterday and today, and try to make it all make some kind of sense.
Seated across the microphone from me is Film Buff Online contributing editor, Natasha Lubutsky. I'm awake now. And seated across the microphone from me, as always, you know his voice, you know his energy, it's Film Buff Online editor-in-chief, Rich Dreeby. Hey, hey!
And you see, that's how you do it, Rich. Okay, fine. You put some inflection in there. Hey, that's right.
You sound like a radio announcer. I know, sometimes I get into a little professional business. Anyways, I'm in a good mood. We just came from a movie that I've been looking forward to for two and a half years.
Tried to manage my expectations going in, but... Oh, please, I saw the freaking tears in your eyes. Someone else heard you blubbering. You were in love, and it's okay to admit it.
I'm actually kind of proud. I love that you have something that you love as much as Superman. Yes, we have literally just walked out of the theater, hopped in our cars, and raced over to my apartment to record this from seeing the Amazon Fans advance screening of Superman, which is opening this week. I'm excited to talk about this, but first, I think we need to...
Is there any news? No, there's no news. We don't need to get into news right now. I think the thing we need to talk about, though, is you are not a Superman fan in general.
No, I am not. Explain yourself. I know we've had this discussion, but to get it on record. One, I find he's a little too Boy Scout, and most times I found the movies boring as fuck.
Okay. Particularly, and I know that this is a hot take, the OG Christopher Reeves. I will admit, though, the transformation sequence when he takes off his glasses, it's so subtle, it's beautiful, and I love that one moment to pieces, and the rest of the movie can go fuck itself. Wow, Jesus.
You are coming in hot and cranky. I got hot takes here. I know. Now, what is your initial thumbs up, thumbs down reaction to James Gunn's film?
I'm giving this a thumbs up. Okay. I love being able to say, and I've been able to say this for the last two iterations of Superman, I knew the actors who were getting the big roles before they got these big roles. And it is nice every now and then to see an upcoming actor years before their break and go, this person is going places.
You can just fucking see it. There's something around them, and you're like, God, I can't wait. With me, Henry Cavill, I mean, yeah, I grew up with him kind of mind crystal and all that. It was the tutors, and this is another hot take.
That was the first time I really saw that man truly acting his ass off, and it was the last time as well. I'm not gonna disagree with you about him not having anything to do in the Superman movies, if that's what you mean. No, I mean ever since. Oh, wow.
Okay. He hasn't had a meaty of a role since the tutors that really showed full fucking range. But then he fell into movie stardom. And that's okay, but I could see that aura around him of I have a star in me.
And his charisma was just off the chart, and I was like, I know that this guy is gonna be big. That also might be a case of, on the tutors, he had a lot more room. He had a lot more runway to play a character and explore that character, whereas the longest movie he was in, okay, he had like maybe 5, 6 hours between all of his screen time in the three Zack Snyder Superman, Batman v. Superman, Justice League thing.
When you get a chance, look up his filmography since Man of Steel. It's a lot of action work. It's a lot of comedy work. He hasn't had a drama since the tutors.
Okay. And there's fantasy work too, but I mean serious drama work. That being said, also here, David Cornset. Man, that man's got range.
I fucking loved Hollywood, the Ryan Murphy TV show that came out during the pandemic. It kind of was there, and then it slipped underneath everyone's radar. As a film fan, I am legitimately angry at you that you have not watched the show. As a film fan.
As somebody who's not a fan of Ryan Murphy's work, though. That's kind of why I avoided it. No, you need to watch this. Okay, I know.
As a film fan, being on the back lots, seeing how motion pictures are made from behind the scenes, hearing about Hattie McDaniel, hearing about the woman who jumped from the Hollywood sign. All of that history is in this story. And, man, you get some great performances across the board and fantastic writing. As a film person yourself, can you promise me that if I watch Hollywood within the next two months, you watch the studio?
Very well. Okay, okay. There we are. Fuck, I gotta get Apple TV now.
That's the only streaming service I don't have. You can come over here and watch it. But, no, he is fantastic in that. And then you get to see range from him again in Pearl, which is a horror movie.
And I was just watching those going, This guy's going somewhere. I can see it. He's got that same look. He's got that same energy around him.
And so when he was cast as this, and then Rachel Brosnahan cast opposite him as Lois Lane, I was like, That is... I'm in. I'm in. Well, then let's start with that.
Their chemistry. Fantastic. Yes. He goes up, she goes down.
She goes up, he goes down. There is a beautiful back and forth. I think the interview sequence is one of my favorite scenes in the entire film. And they released an edited portion of that a little while ago.
And it was nicer to see that bigger scene having more room to breathe, have more energy up and downs. And it was just fantastic. And it's great writing. And it poses a very interesting question, I think, about the use of Superman's bias towards his own powers and his own, dare I say, ego in this situation.
That because he is so tunnel vision about saving lives, he doesn't take into consideration boundaries. He doesn't take into consideration hearsay or the ramifications and consequences geopolitically of his own actions. Because is he above it all? And I like that she poses those questions to him.
And he's trying to figure it out as he goes. And I think that's part of the theme of the overall movie is that we all just try to do our best with what we're given. And this is a question that's kind of been discussed and re-asked over and over again in various runs of various Superman comics as well. Does he stand for truth, justice, and the American way or truth and justice for all?
I didn't watch a lot of the animated stuff, the TV shows. I've read very few of the comics. I'm only basing what I see off of just live action films. And that's fine.
We see a bit of it in Man of Steel where, yes, it's posed by the people and it's posed by the government about the powers of Superman and how far someone with that kind of power would go and how long it would take them to turn on everyone else. That question, to my knowledge, if I remember correctly, because it's been a long time since I watched the Christopher Reeves movies, at least Lois has never really gone there with that. No, she's never been the one to kind of push on that. I fucking love that.
Yeah, I think she's actually the best one to... She's the only one he would probably listen to. And she knows him better than probably anybody else outside of his parents. And I'm not sure exactly where along the relationship arc...
I mean, they're three months in dating. He's already told her that, yes, Clark Kai, by the way, I'm also Superman. And I love that we don't find out how that happened. We don't see any origin.
I don't like... It's been done. You don't need it at this point. Everyone knows how it works.
There's like three or four characters you don't need to do the origin story of. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, you can get away with it. Wonder Woman, maybe. Nah, not Wonder Woman.
Oh, okay. Because there hasn't been enough Wonder Woman content outside of the TV show and the Gal Gadot movies. So having that backstory, I mean, is kind of important and integral. Well, to speak to that, though, that we don't get the origin story, although there are little moments here and there that call back to it.
I like... And this is something I've been saying since I've kind of been watching the production, the announcements about what characters are going to be there and what James Gunn was saying, that we're not going to do the origin. We're going to start three years into his career as Superman. And I got the feeling, and it played out tonight in front of my eyes, this is kind of like if you're just a kid, you pick up a comic, it's your first Superman comic, and you're just kind of thrown into this world.
And you got to figure it out as you go. And you figure it out as you go. And... Okay, I'm okay with that.
And it was fun. You know, as a kid, I love that stuff, man. When they would have like little editor's ...Now I'm not selling good with you, but that's good. Thank you.
You're welcome. Yes, yes. Yes, my carpet thanks you. My landlord thanks you.
My cleaning deposit thanks you. But, where was I on this? Nicholas Holt as Lex Luthor. Right, but Lex Luthor, you know, he has that obsession of wanting to kill Superman.
He comes up with this grandiose plan again involving real estate. That's something we can never seem to escape with about Lex Luthor and the Superman movies. This year, I actually kind of made sense. Yeah, yeah.
No, I really liked it. And so I was watching it, though, and especially towards the end where Lex has his moment. And I don't want to get too much into this and too much of the spoilers, but there's, you know, when he's talking about why he really hates Superman, it's a great acting moment from Nicholas Holt. Holy crap, was he fantastic.
Obviously, you know, totally makes you forget Hank McCoy in the X-Men films, The Beast in the X-Men films. Well, I was talking, I was talking to Darren, my husband, on the way up or way up like a day or two ago. And I said that Rachel Brosnahan was one of the main reasons I was going to see this film. And I was excited to see David Cornsway get his moment.
And he goes, and Nicholas Holt. I go, no. And he goes, what are you talking about? I go, Nicholas Holt is good in anything.
He's been in bad movies, but he's never given a bad performance. That's fair. That is fair. And as he's giving his reason, I started to think about some, you know, and it's comics, writers choose their canon as they go along.
Sometimes they'll change backstory and retcon things because it suits the story that they want to tell. And that's fine. And I'm perfectly good with that. There are some versions of Lex's backstory where his father is incredibly physically abusive.
And I was wondering if that that version of Lex's life was what Gunn was drawing on when he started to write that speech, because it really felt like somebody who needed to validation and needed to be the one in charge because he was afraid to let anybody else be in charge. Or have anyone have the power over him, like the ex-girlfriend. Yes, that's why he threw the ex-girlfriend into that cell. Got it.
OK. OK, yeah. No, that makes sense. I can see that.
There was a beautiful moment where, and I leaned over to you and I said, I'll save it for the podcast. Yes. Because I mainly wanted to see your face when I said it. Finally, James Gunn and Zack Snyder have something in common with those buildings.
Oh, damn. Except for the fact James Gunn made very clear Metropolis was being evacuated. And I know those two guys are friends. In fact, South Park recently.
No, Rick and Morty. Oh, it was Rick and Morty. It was Rick and Morty this past weekend. South Park's having trouble with the merger.
Oh, yeah, that's a whole other. As Parker and Stone said, that's a whole other shit show altogether. I feel bad for those guys. But it did kind of feel like just a little bit of a thumb into the eyeball of, aha, we at least evacuated.
Did they do that earlier on in the movie? Man. And I think, you know, there's a lot of great superhero action in here. People were complaining that it's a Superman movie.
Why do we have to have all these other characters? I'm like, well, they're Superman's work buddies. As, you know, Clark Kent has work buddies at the Daily Planet. In fact, honestly, I think the Daily Planet people got short shrift.
I'm sitting there going, OK, I know Steve Lombard, sports reporter, is a jerk. And Beck Bennett was wonderful. You know what he reminded me of? Oh, God, what was his name?
Dog, from Frasier. Dog. Oh, yeah. Bulldog.
Bulldog. Yes. He was great. That's who he reminded me of.
Sports writer, you know, just loud, obnoxious. We throw out Cat Grant's name. Yay, she's there. Um, obviously, Perry White.
Wait, that was her name? I wasn't, I didn't even pay attention to her name. I was just looking at something else. Well, yeah.
They made it very obvious. Distracting though they were. There is, I can't remember what run it was in. But there's this great one page sequence where Cat is like throwing herself at Clark and he makes this oblique reference to the fact that she's had a boob job.
And it takes her a second and then she gets really pissed off and walks away. I'll see if I can find the page that has been floating around online every now and then. I'll see. Next time I see it, I'll definitely forward it over to you.
Ron Troop, another reporter at the Daily Planet, is there. He's kind of like brought along in the ship at the end. And he, I think, has like one or two other lines. And I was kind of like, oh, Ron Troop's a cool character, man.
You know, I like him in the comics. You know, I wish they had done anything with him. But it was nice, you know, at least that they included the character. I have to give props to Eddie Gafici.
I have been watching him since House and Twilight and X-Men. And I could just keep listing his fucking credits off the top of my head where he is always just kind of a low tier supporting character that is very important until they're not. And here, he's so fucking good as Mr. Terrific.
Like, I want more of this guy. I want his own film or his own show or something. You never know with whatever Gunn has up his sleeve at this point. Yeah, maybe Guy Gardner is going to show up in the Lantern show next year.
Who knows? Fingers crossed. I think that's already been announced. Oh, has it?
OK, whoops. There's a few of those announcements I know have slid by me. Granted, we've said we've already had a few things that we know are part of this world. But this is like the big introduction.
This is the... Go ahead. What did you think of this? Is this a DCU, DC Comics live action universe that you're going to want to continue to maybe not follow every project, but this is one that you're the good.
I'm here for this Superman. OK, go ahead. What? What do you mean?
There is something, a particular character that I know that you're dying to talk about, and I'm shocked you haven't brought him up yet. We'll get there. OK. But I want to ask you, though.
So are you automatically in? As long as we get less of that character, I'm definitely in for this. I was going to say, are you definitely in for Supergirl next year? It's Millie Alcock.
Of course. Are you interested in the Lanterns TV show? It's gonna be more Earthbound, kind of like a True Detective mystery. I liked True Detective because it was Lovecraftian.
I'll watch an episode or two. OK. That's the thing. I'll watch an episode or two of anything and then...
Go from there. Go from there. Usually I try to give a show four. If I'm only...
If it only has eight episodes, I'm not sitting with it for four to get its vibe. If it doesn't click within two, I'm out. OK. Because right now superheroes are not doing it for me.
So you need to have something special to really pop out. That's why this had something special. Yeah. And I think like the Clayface movie is probably gonna be a little bit more leaning towards body horror when that comes along, which would be interesting.
I did have problems with this movie. Don't get me wrong. OK. What were they?
Talk about him first. OK. Yay, Crypto is fun. Crypto is great.
Crypto is the best dog ever. He's the bestest boy. I enjoyed the addition of Crypto. He works well in this movie.
Again, it's one of those kind of like goofy concepts from the comics that James Gunn just kind of took and said, you know what? We're going to take Crypto and do something fun with him, but it's still going to work. It's not going to seem... It's all fun, but it's never camp.
And I thought it worked. I thought he worked well in the movie. I thought he worked well at certain points. I actually sometimes think that there was too much of Crypto.
I think he's there as your comedy fodder. And because everyone loves a dog. I mean, apparently. When Superman woke up, and we're gonna keep this as vague as possible about the circumstances of why he was asleep.
But when Superman woke up and Crypto was like laying on his chest, I said, aww. Yeah. But I was not the only one in the theater. Half the theater said it.
Again, everyone loves a dog. Except you, I know. It's a cliche. It's a fucking cliche at this point.
And I'm... And that's why I think Crypto gets as much screen time as he does, is because when the dog is there, guess what? You're ignoring everything else going on. I don't see his function that way.
Are you being biased? No. OK, no. He serves a story function.
He does serve a story function. But within that serving a story function, they have to constantly up his antics of he's constantly screwing up because he's a dog. He's a not well-trained dog. And that's not Superman's fault.
Which we don't find out till the end of It almost becomes a type of visual and audio programming or brainwashing. I looked at that and I was like, oh, and maybe it's because I was unrelated watching the opening credits to Black Widow this morning. That when you think about it, after a while of hearing something when you're in a twilight zone or seeing something when you're in a twilight zone, it imprints itself in the back of your mind. And so you make your decisions based off of that.
And so that was like a weird. I look at it as that recording of his parents that he listened to over and over again. Yeah, it's very much applied that he has been. I feel like that feels very much in simpatico with what his earth parents, Jonathan Martha, were kind of raising him.
That is a beautiful scene, by the way, on the farm. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I even that nearly choked me up. And so they, you know, I think they both kind of work.
And then, you know, there's a reveal later on. But I think it's like, oh, yeah. And that's when the nature versus nurture question comes up. And we understand where Lex falls on that, you know, because the second he discovers the secret, he, you know, immediately, you know, it reinforces his his own.
We're giving you the world versus I'm giving you nothing. You have to earn it. I have one last and this is very minor, but it stuck out in my head like a sore thumb when I saw that scene. I did feel manipulated by the movie, by the storytelling, by the score.
When this happened during the invasion sequence, the bunch of kids raising the flag of Superman with a score in the background. I got very pissed off. I could see where you could feel manipulated by that. Tell me why and I'll tell you if you're right.
Because I think it very much pulls the heartstring of kids in peril. Keep going. And they were the people at the center of the conflict that no one ever seemed to ask them what they felt. It was what's the reaction in, you know, the halls of government in the U.S.?
What's the reaction with Lex? What's the reaction here or there? And no one ever thought to ask the people who were about to be invaded that Superman had stopped and had become an inspiration to. Okay, no.
Okay, then explain yourself, ma'am. I asked, why did I feel manipulated, not why the characters were feeling manipulated. I was feeling manipulated because it didn't feel like a sign of hope for those kids to raise that flag and for everyone to start chanting his name. It felt like a we fucked up and we need your help.
Help us. I don't think they were admitting to fucking up. I think they were admitting to we are helpless here. We're just, you know, poor people here who are standing on the border of our country about to be invaded by a very heavily armored military with high tech weaponry from that was all manufactured by Lex Luthor.
Okay, and I said these exact same words about an hour and a half ago. At the end of Braveheart, we feel that the Scots on the front fighting against the English who are about to wage war on them. William Wallace is dead. We are fighting for the ideal that he believed and died for.
And you stand with them. Here it is. We liked him while he was there and he helped us. And he was in a word mentioned to me convenient.
And now he's not here to help us because we turned our backs on him because we got scared that he might be the one in power and control over us. And now we need his help. So SOS Superman come fucking save us. I don't think the people of that foreign country were the ones who kind of turned their backs on him.
It felt very much definitely a media manipulation in the US. It is a media manipulation in the US. So Lex could have that popular groundswell of support to, you know, say, oh, see, the people don't like Superman. So, you know, to go through his plan to what he does.
And I feel like that needed to be stated better because it did not earn that score. Okay, I'm sorry that didn't work for you then. And the one kid standing alone at that moment. Don't tell me with the tears down his face, him chanting that phrase or that word with his eyes shut wasn't a help us, help us, please God, help us, please, Superman, help us, help me.
Yeah, it was. It was. But it wasn't there wasn't any like, I'm sorry, we turned our backs to you or anything like that there. They just they just saw him as somebody who was there before who helped them and repelled an invasion.
And, you know, they wanted, you know, they said, look, they're back. We need your help again. I don't think that was conveyed properly. Okay.
Well, I mean, I felt it because I felt that way because I think overall, the story is about, you know, hope and being, you know, every day trying to, you know, do as good as you can. That's the obvious answer to a character whose symbol on their chest has quote unquote meant to stand for hope. Of course, that's gonna be your first jump because that's how you're programmed to think because that's what it's supposed to stand for. I look at it like Lex Luthor, like Lois Lane, objectionably.
I stand back and I look at the whole thing and that moment did not feel rightly earned in my eyes. I felt manipulated by our story. Then this is one of our agree to disagree moments. That is the one moment if I was in a test screening, I would say you need to fix something.
You need to add something somewhere. It doesn't need to be a visual. It can just be it could be a news footage clip of people earlier on, like kids running around pretending to be Superman in that country because they idolize him. Just give me that.
Give me a newsreel clip or something of them playing. And that way, when this moment happens, it feels earned. We've never seen anything from that country until they're standing on their border. We've heard they get invaded a lot.
We hear that everyone is pushing them back, but we never see or actually hear from anyone in that country until they're standing on. We see footage of them standing on their border. Let me ask you this. Is this the Superman we need right now, culturally?
Because I think, yes, he does have a lot of joy, which is something that I think has always been missing. I love Man of Steel, and I will admit I actually really only went to see Man of Steel because Russell Crowe was in it. I was happy for Henry Cavill, but I was Russell Crowe. I think the Krypton stuff was probably the best part of Man of Steel.
But I think he's fun. He needs a little more grounding in certain aspects. I think the comedy was a little too strong in areas where it didn't need to be. But overall, there's a light here.
And if you're going to see this movie, one of the presidents looks like a Russian version of Rodney Dangerfield. I mean, did you not catch that? The president of the invader country? Yeah.
Yeah. He looked like Rodney Dangerfield with a fright wig. Fright wig? I was thinking Albert Einstein wig, but yeah.
It was a little thinner than Albert Einstein's hair, but... Fair. Yeah. I think, yeah, this is a kind of a...
We need a... It's almost a radical idea. It's almost punk rock, if you will. That was the best fucking line in the movie, by the way.
Best line. That, you know, performing an act of kindness just because you can. You know, trying to make the world a better place in whatever increment you can. Whether it be small or whether it be large.
I mean, yes, he stopped, you know, a country from invading another country. He also seemed to squirrel. I like the squirrel moment. But you're right.
The squirrel moment is a beautiful thing. I think that sums up the character altogether. That, you know, he's just out there trying to do what he can do with what he has. And I think, you know, kind of...
This is kind of a bit more callous time in our history right now, I think. And I don't think when Gunn wrote, first wrote this script, like, five, six years ago, that he anticipated all of this. But it does kind of line up fairly nicely. It does.
But it's also... If you are teetering around what I think you're teetering around, yes, it does line up nicely. But in 20 years, it'll just be a good story. True.
And to draw a parallel, in the mid-1970s, America was feeling bad about itself. We had a lot of morally complex, gray films where there were no good guys because we were still kind of hurting from Vietnam and Watergate and everything. And then along came this little movie with, like, gung-ho, swashbuckling heroes and very booable bad guys and villains, and it was called Star Wars, and it was a huge hit. So...
And we don't remember that setting now. We just look back at Star Wars and go, that was an awesome movie. But, no, I think Guardians is fantastic. I loved Peacemaker.
I don't want to say whatever James Gunn touches turns to solid gold. It's not gold that really appeals to me, but, man, does it make me feel good when I sit down and watch one of his movies. Sometimes it's the break that I need from all the craziness of the world. It's very rare when I actually want to do that, but when I do, I never