If you're tired of endless strolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, Editor-in-Chief of Peter. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you.
You can find my list of the best places for Martinis and fries in New York City, and save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. Download the Eater app at EaterApp.com. It's free for iOS users. Does anyone really know what goes on behind closed doors at the Supreme Court?
Four years ago I got a tip about the court, and I was not in the market to cover it. What's so ever. But this tip was about a secret influence campaign that had been carried out inside the court. As you know, the very idea of that is outrageous.
I'm Pete Barara, and this week New York Times investigative journalist Jody Cantor joins me to discuss her ex-pose on the court's Shadow Docket. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preep, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher, and it's the start of Scott Free August, my favorite time of year and my favorite holiday. So I've decided to pick my favorite person to take his place and probably best him in about two seconds, comedian and best selling author Kathy Griffin. Kathy, welcome. I'm very glad to be filling Scott's very tiny shoes.
Tiny shoes. Kara, you cannot keep track of your straight. Your straight has gone wildly through any of my... You don't even know where he is, do you?
Yeah, I don't actually. Do you even know what state he's in or country or? No, I do not. I don't know where he was.
I think he was in New York for a little bit. Is he somewhere being sexist? I'll bet he is. No, he could be anywhere.
He could be anywhere. He's got a plane and you know, he could do whatever he wants. He can just go. Okay, so typical.
Typical, but I'm glad to have you here. What's going on with you? Forget him. It's Scott Free August.
We don't care about Scott at all. What are you doing? What are you doing? What is going on with you right now?
Well, I am getting my voice back. So I had lung cancer surgery and I had some... Yes, sounds much better. And I'm back to working a bit, which is awesome.
So I got to do a couple of series and a little part in the movie and I love doing stuff like that. Lately, your voice sounds a lot better. I'll tell you that. For people who don't know Kathy had a voice issue.
Oh, it does sound better. I had this injection thing in my local court. Yeah. I did an event with Rosio Donald, which was really, really fun.
And so I did 20 minutes and then I did a Q&A with Rosie because I knew the audience wanted to get our hotcakes. And then I'm going to do an evening at Largo with Alison Gill, she wrote, and that's a Democratic fundraiser. I think it's that clue. But as far as going actually back on the road, I'm actually going to wait a bit.
First of all, I still don't worry about COVID. I got half a freaking long. Yeah, that's right. I am worried about gun stuff and I'm worried about people being crazy.
Really? So talk about that. You're worried that what happened with Dave Chappelle or Pete that the guy jumped on the stage with him? Things like that?
I'm someone that had a lot of these incidents prior to this wave happening. Not bad. Like one time I had a guy just almost knocked me off the stage because he wanted me to sign his book. But it's still like a very jarring thing that happens.
I don't feel comfortable with a lot of places. I used to play a ton of markets in Florida and using. Those are my two most popular states for some reason. And I don't know where I could play in Florida where there wouldn't be an incident.
I might be fine, but it's weird. It feels like this almost a bit of a gamble. Right. So you'd only be in states like San Francisco.
The country of San Francisco would be good. And the country of New York would be good. And that's it. Let's see if I can go to the country of Austin.
All right. Well, let me just say today, we're going to be talking about the hearings. There's more missing messages from January 6. Also, Republican senators are finding new reasons to vote no on gay marriage.
And we'll speak with authors, Sari Horowitz, about the real cause of the opioid epidemic. But first, Taylor Swift says she's not the biggest celebrity polluter. Recent reports had Swiss private jet took the biggest toll on the climate among celebrities, whether reports authors are clear. They can't tell if the celebrity is actually on the plane or it's just being repositioned to another airport.
Swift says that she regularly loans her jet out to other individuals and the tracked flights aren't all hers. Talk about this because Kylie Jenner got in trouble for this. Have you have you flown on Taylor Swift's jet or Kylie Jenner? I know you live next to the Kardashians.
I have not, but I do fly private whenever I can. And I know that's a ridiculous indulgence that I never thought I would say. But I will say in her defense, let's be honest, Taylor Swift, and I've made fun of her for many years. She can be a little on the self-righteous.
That's all I'm saying. But she's very, I think she's a great girl and all this other stuff. But I don't really think she should. I mean, I think she's someone who gets harassed more than people realize.
And I will respect her forever and here's why. There was a case where there was a sleazy DJ and he grabbed her butt during a meet and greet and you do these meet and greets and they're tied in with the concert and sometimes you don't know what you're getting all this other stuff. And I love that she went to, she took that guy to court and she sat there without a lot of publicity in this courtroom and testified. So I think she's great.
And I think, can you really call yourself a feminist if you're going to like rail on Kylie Jenner, especially when you're letting guys that have the same money or the same whatever. And so that was hard for me because I like to think I can call Women Dirty Horrors and be a feminist. Yes. Maybe that's sort of something to think about, which is like, if we're really going to like, look, the one guy that you introduced me to, I sort of like is Mark Cuban.
He might be the least heinous of all of your Silicon Valley. Okay, I mean, that's a mixed honey. You got to get out of that crowd, first of all, that crowd's going nowhere. We're going to get to that.
We're going to get to hang us in a minute. So at least he seems to be doing something. But I'm just saying, like, I'm sure Mark Cuban uses more jet fuel than Taylor Swift or whatever. But I know I just think it's, they're kind of reaching.
I wouldn't say that. That's another one reason for carbon emissions. Yes, I would say not at all. And on that note, Elon Musk cannot be left out of anything.
He's planning to build his own private airport in Texas. They are working services, Texas based companies, but plans require both FAA and local regulators. I'll just let you go on, Elon. How do you feel about Elon?
He's so gross with the population stuff. Yeah. I mean, when I saw him at Code, which is an amazing festival of thinkers. Yes, you're invited this year.
It's in September. There. There's your commercial. Yeah.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. I have to say I was really blown away by hearing him talk.
I've heard him talk in person twice. And the stuff he says that I think is so provably false is just bizarre. But I will tell you the pros that had questions. Like he would say stuff that I thought was horrifying.
Like he's building the, like it's that movie, the biosphere with Paulie Shore. He's basically Paulie Shore. Right. And so he's building the biosphere on Mars.
No, he wants to go to Mars. You know, he has, he has one problem that nobody asked about. What about the new oxygen? I'm just wondering how it's going to go in the new oxygen and your crappy smelly bubble.
He has plants. And it's only rich people can go there and only people that want to be with other people who I assume would give their money to Elon Musk at this point. I mean, I don't think even Christ is going to go. I mean, if she doesn't go, I'm not going to go.
Okay. Let me ask you, what do you think about him buying Twitter? Seriously? How did you feel when he was up for buying Twitter?
But now apparently he's not. I mean, we were, we're all losing with the football. You know, I mean, I'm sort of, I'm just a civilian. So I'm learning about sort of the law parts.
And I think it's fascinating. The case is already a trial. Like they already had a big hearing and then the trial is as soon as October in the chance. I don't have to learn more about the chance.
But it makes me sad because I know this is so simplistic and silly, but I'm one of those dumb Americans that walks around going, man, the stuff he could do. And the stuff he could do, by the way, even as an immigrant. But like when you're rolling, once you start rolling with Kanye and Joe Rogan, it's like, I don't know if you can like even really talk to those guys anymore. Like I was talking to John Appetow.
And I said, because I haven't seen Joe and Joe Rogan in years. And I said to John, I go, if I ran into Joe, I haven't seen him in probably 15 years. I could probably like have a conversation. You were on a show, correct?
You were on a show again. No, no, that was a girl named Vicky Lewis. He was on a show called News Radio. Oh, News Radio.
Okay. When I was on Suddenly Seuss. Right. That's right.
Okay. And I knew him because I knew that show so well, I was friends with Phil Hartman and Andy Dick and David Foley and stuff. And so there was some sort of like cross pollination. It's kind of the roganization of America that I now and more worried about than Trumpism.
Really? And so that's one of the things that when I think about someone like along Musk, I I'm blown away that he doesn't consider himself a fascist when he says like blindly, fascistic things. Right. And I, you know, it's just one of those sad things because I think of growing up and all these immigrants who came here and made our country better and then we gave them awards.
And I feel like that whole thing, that's why I brought up human for him to be doing the prescription drug thing is what billionaires should do. All right. What would you have with Elon Dick? If you had Elon money, what would you do?
Oh my gosh. I mean, you have to, I'm sorry, but text stuff, you have to start with the arguments. And I know nothing about that. But I would think it's, you know, the guy that sort of monetized the electric car and the way it had never been done, after that was an industry that was put out by the auto industry.
So famously 25, 30 years ago, he could have made such a bigger footprint with that. And I'm, I'm ashamed that Teslas are considered like a libtard elite electric car. And you know, he could have made all that stuff like more affordable and still a bégazillionaire. I guess the part that frustrates you is like, all the things you can do like a prescription drug initiative like you by doing it.
And it would barely even make a dent. You look at all this stuff, Oprah did all those years. I mean, just year after year after year, it's kind of a big part of like being able to stomach these people at millions of dollars. Let me just say one man using his celebrity for good, John Stewart, late into Republican senators who voted against the Veterans Health Care Bill.
Here's what he said. I'm used to the hypocrisy. Christina Keynote from BFW. She sat in an office with Mitch McConnell and a war veteran from Kentucky.
And he looked that man in the eyes and he said, we'll get it done. And he lied to him because Mitch McConnell yesterday flipped. So what do you think about John Stewart on the war path that video he did with the against Ted Cruz was brilliant. The PAC Act would fund healthcare for vets exposed to toxins in burn pits.
What do you think about what he's doing? I think it's so fantastic. And it is such a shame that more folks don't do it because the thing that John has going for him that I admire, I'm jealous of, is John also has an amazing infrastructure. So when John wants to go to Capitol Hill, he's got his years of working with these guys.
He's got team from his television show for years. And he's so good at making this happen. But what's key is that then he turns out to be such an excellent ambassador. He's gotten so good at this stuff, everything from the humor of the famous picture where he sees Mitch McConnell, he's kind of laughing as he looks like a turtle, to sitting down and just giving it to the House and Senate as they should have to take it.
Because it's very frustrating as a Democrat to hear the Republicans get away with keep acting like they care about veterans. I'm someone who actually walked the walk I like to say, I'm formed in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And it's amazing to think you can look out at these men and women who are like kids, care out like you go over there and you're like, oh my god, everybody's 18. Like they're like kids.
And you go, how would you ever keep this out of a bill? And it just gets so nuts. And that's the part I don't know how we get out of because I'm 61. But I keep from a time where I actually don't remember necessarily even knowing what religion the president was.
Like, I don't remember really, I mean, I knew party, but it wasn't nearly like this. So I think John's a really important voice, honestly. Should he run for president? There was a run for office.
No, no, no, no, no, he's good at this. He's a really incredibly effective communicator. But you know, I think that we, although he has really no more legit experience than many legislators for sure, like I'm not kidding. But I just think we should go back to the business of being with actual politicians, because I think the politician is a worthy endeavor.
And you know, my dad was a precinct captain, he did it for free. But like all these levels that were now burning to the ground with school boards and local mayors and especially election officials, all the years that we made fun of all politicians is now that we're seeing, I think the effect of it. But politics is a worthy living. Nobody gets, you know, rich off it.
Well, they do. Some of them do. Mythicala has a lot of money. So they all seem to do, including Nancy Pelosi, they're all pretty wealthy doing their job.
I know that part's not good. No, no, no, it's not. I'm very much hoping I can stop this stock trading. Yeah, exactly.
But speaking of someone who may not have as much money, Alex Jones has filed for bankruptcy. The filing comes as Jones is on trial for defamation. Curiously, documents revealed that Jones's online store raked in more than $160 million in three years as he pushed Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, a judge has ordered the trial to continue to avert it despite the bankruptcy filing. What do you think about this?
I was actually, I've been watching a live feed of the trial. It is shocking because he didn't show up. He said he had some like medical condition, but then he did his like YouTube or whatever shows where he talks like beach use. Like I thought that was a joke.
But these people that are high up in MAGA world, they're talking beach use and it's just vitamins and like fitness stuff. Like you're looking at Alex Jones for fitness advice. And then he showed up the second day with four bodyguards. Yeah.
And you know, you've got these Sandy Hook families there. Yeah. And then he stormed out of the courtroom the first day he was there. And now his infillers like correspondence, big quotes are testifying.
And it's just it's just heartbreaking. So today we heard from two of the parents devastating testimony, but I'm always scared. You know, I just feel like these days the court system is being so exposed, you know, for what it is. And I know the parent company for Infowars has declared bankruptcy, but who knows where he's stocking his personal wealth?
I feel like these guys always have a way of like stocking personal wealth. But this is this is just one of those things where if this doesn't take him down what what possibly could sort of like Trump, right? In a lot of ways. I mean, I did an interview with Lynn Posner, who was the who was the parent of Noah who died there.
And it was astonishing what he was he and his family were going through, including how the online companies, you know, allowed all kinds of hoax sites to proliferate. And the only way they could beat them was through copyright, not because it was wrong or anything else. And they had a very hard time taking down Alex Jones. I harangued them about Alex Jones for a very long time before they took it down.
And they felt like he had free speech, you know, and I was like, well, yeah, but these families are, you know, undergoing enormous strain because of what happened already. And to have this guy selling by the men's on top of their children's death was just repulsive. I mean, just I think you're right. I think he is astonishing that he's still walking around free.
That's the part that really drives you crazy, right? Given all the damage he's done to our country. And all the damage he's done everywhere. And yet to come, I mean, none of these folks are done, not Roger Stone, not Manafort.
Manafort is a book coming out. Yep, Paul Manafort, absolutely. And Trump himself, how do you think about Trump these days? You know that I did a gig one time at Bedminster with Trump for the apprentice.
And it was, it was for a challenge. I wasn't a contestant, but it was for a challenge. And he called me and he gave me 50 grand to come roast him at Bedminster, which is ironic. He said, like, I want you to roast me, don't be too tough on the hair, but I want you to roast me.
He kind of forgot about that later on when I took a certain photo. What did you say? What was your roast? Oh, he was fine with it there.
But he put later on when he was president. Obviously, he was like, how dare she? She's damaging my children to have to see this picture and stuff. But no, I mean, I'm the apprentice.
He was a completely different person. He was just like, when I try to tell my friends who I live, like my friends that are like, mad at me, because I didn't like, you know, quote, cut us out off sooner. Right. I'm like, no, no, all those years at NBC Universal, he was just this like big, sweaty, smelly buffoon.
And everybody knew he was like kind of a husband. And everybody knew that he was certainly not this billionaire, much less maybe from multi-millionaire. And you know, that I've never heard, I never talked politics with him. I didn't know the racial stuff with him.
The women's stuff was like, I just knew Melania was ridiculous. And then you know, I mean, like the daughter's horrible. She's really dumb. And Ivana, who's buried there.
I mean, can you imagine what did she take that was worth it? Like, why did she just come out against him? How much money? What was it?
I don't know what her deal was up until the end. But she was coke to the end of Anna. And she's still helping, she's still helping him out with taxes. So let me ask you a question.
But how do you feel about him now? How do you feel about him now? Do you think he's coming back? Are you worried about it?
I mean, obviously, he ruined your life in many ways, that picture. Yeah, he had a direct impact on my life, for sure. And I think, you know, there's a part of me that looks at him and he really does look so unhealthy. I almost can't imagine him sort of making it any much longer, but we've been wrong about that before.
And so, you know, he does seem to have the griffon quality of I'll never die. Just, you know, my family lives to be 100. So I'm sorry, everybody. And I also, I also am very curious to see what happens with DeSantis, because I can't imagine him actually like being cool with DeSantis running.
I doubt DeSantis will be the running mate, which unfortunately would probably be very successful for both of them. But I am definitely one of those people, PUBBING in the camp of I'm getting less worried about Trump and more worried about everything from DeSantis just to all the local electors were not going to call all the attorneys general that are going to slip in. Do you think Trump has a husband now again or not? I think he's going back on the D list, which is sort of funny.
But I definitely think he's feeling it, because you know, you've got his people are actually starting to get real life indictments. He's probably he's definitely scared about Fulton County, but he's probably pretty scared about the stuff in Florida, too, with Joel Greenberg and Maggie's and possibly Santas. But what I find just the most driving about him is the same thing. Now I find about a bunch of them, which is just how they've mastered drilling down to the local level and getting people on, like I said, school boards, city councils, local mayors, and then big city mayors and then of course, real life senators that make a difference.
And also somebody will find out what's actually going on with cinema and mansion because they're talking about what we need to stop acting like we have that we don't really have to say that Kara, we don't know. No, but maybe, maybe we will. Anyway, let me ask you a final question. The maggot people still in touch with you is are the repercussions still happening from that photograph of Trump that you did or is that past you now?
Oh, yes. There's one guy came to my house a couple of weeks ago, and he's this guy that made this really crazy gold statue of Trump, when we're Trump, sort of looks like a dwarf, and he like brings it to CPAC and all this other stuff. Oh, that one, yeah. So that guy just showed it up at my house, not with its statue.
No, but he brought me a big painting. And I think because he's a gay, he still wants to draw me. He drew a picture of you. Yes.
And found you. Yes. And gave it to you? He left it here, but my husband just kept saying she doesn't live here.
Oh, all right. Let's get to our first big story. There's a growing mystery around missing texts from January 6th, the Secret Service now blames I message for those missing records. In other words, Apple and says it might stop using that service.
The reports say that text messages from two key officials in the Trump government are also missing. The Department of Homeland Security says it lost the text of Acting Secretary Chad Wolf and his Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Kuchinelli in the period leading up to January 6th. Interesting. Wolf says he turned over all records to DHS when he left the job in January.
I know you're not a cybersecurity expert and most people think this is ridiculous. But does any of this make sense? And what is your assessment of it? Well, I do.
I got a cybersecurity expert but I do experience with the US Secret Service because they don't want to know that investigation. Yeah. And they worked with the US Attorney's Office. So in tandem and they were considering charging me with conspiracy to assassinate the president of the United States.
Yeah. So they didn't lose any mind. I don't know what to tell you. I had to produce everything.
They were not taking any like, oh, well, I use Snapchat the wrong way. So now it's time forever. I just once again blown away. I was so scared.
Like, I wasn't going to screw up this investigation and say like, oh, I lost some text wink. So this is just a shocker. This is one time I wish I was a cybersecurity expert. Right.
Well, I'm a little bit of one. I've talked to a lot and I have to say they all think this is ridiculous. They think it's kind of astonishing. But can they really not find them?
I think they can. I think they I think they did something to them. Kara, Kara, you have to call the government. We have written about it.
I've helped people write about it. Okay. But what are you going to have to find them? I am not.
But I know hackers are good enough to find them. And that's my assumption is that they'll be they'll be those someone will find them. I'm sure other governments have them. I mean, I just it feels as if it's it's all bullshit.
Drop a dime, bitch. I will try. I'm helping out all the reporters who are doing this. I will drop a dime, bitch.
Okay. But this by the way, this director of Secret Service announced that he'll delay his retirement as the investigation continues. He was supposed to leave the agency and take a position with Snap, a company best known for disappearing messages, which is ironic. So I don't know what to say, Kathy.
I don't know. I'm sure I can prevail upon some of my tech people to find these messages. But do you feel like it's a cover up? Correct?
That's what it feels like to you given your experience with the Secret Service. Did you find them professional? Here's what I feel, honey. I feel you should get out the Rolodex and let's start making calls live on the air and let's call because you probably know some of those hackers that are in prison.
Right. That's true. I do. Yes.
You could be like clearly starling where you don't visit a hacker and you're like all nervous. And then the hacker comes up and you make a deal to save democracy. I'm not going to do everything. Got here.
Speaking of secret conversations, Congressman Matt Gates told Roger Stone, your other friend, that he could expect a pardon. New footage reveals that two spoke as Stone was awaiting trial and charges of obstructing a congressional investigation. Stone was convicted in later pardon by then-President Trump. Matt Gates.
I mean, he and of course they were caught on a hot mic that Roger Stone was taping. So talk to me about those too. Well, you got to love how these schools love to videotape themselves, crime. And then bragging and like exaggerating.
And so then when they finally go to court, they're like, I was just trying to impress the other Nazis. They're very too impressed to get the Nazis, by the way. So this is just one of those things that this is one of the reasons that a lot of us get worried about the Department of Justice in general, which is it just seems like many of these investigations have been opened. And I would have been nice if Matt Gates could have gone down sooner.
So he can't go out there and do what he's doing, which is all these characters go out every weekend anyway, and they're huge in the Mago world. And they are sometimes it's like D-list and 30 people show up and sometimes it's 10,000. But every weekend you got Patrick Byrne, Joe Flynn, Mike Flynn, you know, Kerry Lake and all those folks. So I feel like we're in this point where we're starting to see the dam break, like Liz Cheney said, but it's now we're raised against the clock considering what else could be done in the meantime, because- Meaning raised against what clock?
The midterm? The midterm elections, but also raising against just the clock until they do something else that is affecting the outcome of an election. And it could be in Florida where Stone is or it could engage us in Florida too. And it could be some little Congress person we never heard of that's in Colorado, like Ken Barker something.
So there's so many that are like signed on to this kind of corruption. I'm just one of those Dems that is fearing we're like never gonna get ahead of like preventing the next voter fraud. Yeah, they're relentless. One of the things I say to people is this group is relentless.
And that's a really that's a difficult thing to fight when you're not as relentless as the group you're fighting. Although Gates tried to shame a teen abortion activist, she turned around and raised more than a million dollars for abortion charities. So that was good. There's ways to get yourself going, correct?
Oh yeah, she's fantastic. And also she's such a great example kind of like John Stewart. I'm like, hey, this is this is something that can be done. Like what I love about Juliana, she loves inspiring other young people and young Democrats in Texas.
And I love that she keeps saying like, we really are a purple state. We're just gerrymandered. Help us. And sometimes it's just that simple messaging that people finally get because they are masters of the projection style of messaging and trying to convince Dems that they're all, you know, pedophiles and they're keeping that whole piece of parlor lizard people that are going through with the rumor.
We're all rumors. We're all rumors. I get a lot of rumor in texts and things like that. All right, Kathy, we're gonna go on a quick break.
When we come back, Chris and cinema is a wall in the inflation reduction act. And we'll speak with friend of pivot, Siri Horowitz about the real causes of the opioid epidemic. I'm Maria Sherpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness.
We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts. So we are 250 years into this American experiment. And I say it's going okay.
I give us like a C plus. There is no perfect past, but there is also no exclusively negative past because humans are gonna human. That's what we do. I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people.
What's gonna determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve? Okay, so I'm just gonna be a jerk here because I'm a historian. So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people.
Oh, okay. You know, I just don't remember it from schoolhouse rock. We the people, I don't even know. Four more for you.
Did I establish this? What is it? Insure domestic tranquility? So you're talking about a foundational document.
So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy. That's this week on America, actually. Kathy, we're back. The surprise humor mansion bill speaking of Joe Manchin is far from a done deal.
It's still unknown if Kristen Cinnamott will support it. So what's the deal with her? You were just saying she's Republican. She could sink the bill.
She could not sink the bill. Where do we think we are? I mean, it's just such a shame. And let me tell you something.
I feel like a sucker because I said it's here again and I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's a cool girl who's bisexual with a purple wig. Lemon, the future is here. I didn't know she's like a psycho Russian ass. I mean, they have parties in Republican circles where they thank her.
Yeah. Like, you know, and so that's not good. You know, and look, Schumer is too much of a centrist for me. And I don't think he can whip his caucus the way Nancy can.
I think she's such a rock star. But I don't know if you could ever be prepared for a mansion in Cinnamott because, you know, Manchin was like a high-high-can to me or like, one of them almost like a Chris Coons. But now he's really trying to make his stamp in feel. Yeah, they'll vote with us for certain judges and stuff as they should.
But then to hold back these type of this type of progress in Congress, it's just it just can't help it feel like she is a stupid idiot, inoramis, who just wants to be like, instavamis. And that's so frustrating at this time. There's more to it than that. FDC filing.
So she's raising money from Republicans. She's someone who is not what you think she was as you talked about, but she also likes to pretend she's a maverick. Correct? That's I think that's the way she acts correctly.
She's a maverick and she'll and same thing with Manchin is I don't think about anything else. I try to work with everybody. Manchin said the same thing about whether he's going to support Biden even if Biden ran again. And so I think they like to consider themselves neither Republican nor Democrat, even though they ran as Democrats.
Right. Well, then they can be Jim Jeffers and they can be an independent. Or they can be that member that idiot Scott Brown, oh god, I said next to him on dinner one time. What an idiot.
Like what's seriously this guy's seriously stupid. And he was supposed to be the swing vote for all these votes. And all he was talking about how much he loved being a senator because he had this sweet basement apartment and a big screen and the old ball and chain couldn't bother. He just watched games with the other senators.
That's why he became a senator. So cinema is like, she just wants money to buy more cookie classes. You know, I she's just awful and she's it's so bad as a chick. I'm like, Oh, you're scared off of the rest of us.
And then Manchin, he's got the daughters got the conflict of interest with big oil. Yeah. And look, that's what the McConnell's do. So I wish we could do what they do and I wish we could turn on them so much where we get them picked out.
But also I have to have those amazing candidates ready. So we need Amy Harrison to get on it. And I think everybody should should campaign as hard as Beto. You think you will win this time?
Most people don't. He's amazing. He's an amazing campaigner. I know.
But most people think Ray Mappen is doing rather well. Same thing in Georgia against Stacy Abrams. Camp is doing Brian campus doing really well. But not in Florida with Dr.
Oz, of course. Please feel free to make a comment about Dr. Oz. Oh, okay.
Well, first of all, it's Pennsylvania, but I was on the Dr. Oz show one time. And I just thought it was funny that he was douchey. Yeah, why?
Why were you wanting? Oh, it was honey. I was trying to sell a book and God knows I would have done like a snuff film. Well, we can only do one.
That's the thing about snuff films dark for the show. Sorry. Anyway, yeah. So I was on and he had to think about like, do you want to do a thing about diets?
And I was like, well, I, you know, when I'm on the road a lot, I'm gonna have to almost eat like an athlete. And then I like made my like pre-show meal. And it was just funny. He did like, he like rolled his eyes the whole time.
And you know, the audience kind of takes their cue from like the host. But I'm so delist that the whole time I'm thinking like, I can't screw this up because I don't want to piss off like whoever owns his show, like Sony or King World or all those behemoths. And so I just remember as one of those gigs where I was like smiling, I'm in a tight dress and hair and makeup and high heels and trying to plug my book and my concert tour. Yeah, I was just like, I walked out of there like, uh, that's in sell tickets.
But he's also done long as a cinema level turnabout that once again, like Trump, I just knew him as like this another guy in this indication world. And that's a very foreign world. You have to appeal to everybody and the flyovers, daytime ladies who are ironing and all that stuff. And they loved him for a long time because I guess we never knew he was really like this.
Like this? Well, it doesn't look like he's gonna win actually, John Thiter seems to have him beat at this moment in time at least. Anyway, getting back to the Senate, Republican senators might choose payback over policy when it comes to gay marriage. At least that's the message Susan Collins sent last week.
She said the GOP senators might withhold their vote on a bill that would project gay marriage over anger as a secret deal between Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin. She's still working to support the bill, Susan Collins. Tell me, tell me what you think of this gay marriage bill Republicans, 71% of Americans support gay marriage according to Gallup poll. That's a record high.
They also support abortion rights. But here we are. What do you think about this gay marriage bill going nowhere? Well, first of all, I think Susan Collins is like Kirsten cinemas mother, like just think of them as like, like minded mothers and daughters or something.
She's just turned out to be a nightmare. Just because she didn't work out so he lied. Just just be just be a Republican is like, Oh, I'm anti choice. You know, I'll be over there with the guys fist bumping.
But that's why I think it's really honestly important what John Stewart did last week, because Susan Collins kind of stood there on the floor and appeared to say we're so petty, we're gonna hold back this health of the vets or gay marriage. It really sounds like she's saying that. You know, I think we have to realize that this is not a party that wants to take away your existing rights. And I for one don't feel like that's sunk in with most Americans yet at all.
Unfortunately, it's starting to, but I think that's what we're looking at. And so it's just important, like I don't do like rock the vote anymore because I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm no longer saying get on vote. Vote blue this time. Like that's kind of the whole message because they said the type of things, you know, you've got Susan Collins who has the nerve to go on the Sunday shows and say, Oh, Trump learned his lesson or I'm gonna get Brett Kavanaugh the benefit of the doubt.
And so Amy Coney Barrett, we know what she's getting. We know they keep having her on Sunday shows. It's a bummer. Yeah.
Yeah. What would you say to her if you could interview her? I would say you should resign. And then hopefully I would have a better candidate for people to vote for from the Democratic Party.
Wow. Younger female. What joke would you make about Susan Collins? I'd probably take a joke and I'm going to credit with my friend Bethel Pidis because I think it's the greatest abortion joke ever written.
And I go up to Susan and I'd say, Susan, I'm so glad I ran into you. I'm just on my way to get an abortion. I'm not a pregnant or anything. I just want to get one while I still can.
And then I would not, I don't know if I tape it. Maybe I'd like hold the phone up like they do. Anyway, speaking of indigencies, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Sarah Horowitz is an investigative reporter for The Washington Post and co-author of American Cartel Inside the Battle to Bring Down the Opioid Industry.
Welcome, Sarah. And for those who don't know, Sarah and I worked together at The Washington Post 109 years ago. It's good to see you again. It's good to see you, Kara.
Thanks for having me on. So on this topic, though, boy, now I recently interviewed Patrick Radden Keith about this issue. I got so furious about it. And this book made me more furious.
So let's talk, but that was mostly about the Sacklers and Purdue Pharma. And that's where a lot of the attention has been. So talk a little bit about where the opiate blame goes, the epidemic goes. You say it's more widespread than one family.
I'd love to know why. Right. So Kara, this is the story people don't know about the opioid epidemic. Patrick wrote a great book on Purdue and the Sacklers, but it's so much bigger than that.
So a lot of companies that we know about, Walmart, Walgreen, CVS, Johnson & Johnson, were huge players in the opioid epidemic. And actually some companies I didn't really know about, like Malenkrock from St. Louis. And these companies together, after Purdue and the Sacklers had really faded, the government went after them, prosecuted them.
These companies moved into the market and they really fueled the crisis and manufactured and shipped a hundred billion pain pills, highly addicted pain pills across the country. And it was so bad that people in the Drug Enforcement Administration that we interviewed said, these were like drug dealers and businesses. They were like the Mexican cartels, but instead of guns, they had lobbyists and lawyers and businesses. So why do they have such a hard time fighting?
Because they have these lobbyists or that they're bought and paid for, the politicians are bought and paid for. Where's the real weak point in dealing with it? The people, the doctors continue to describe them, people still want them. Where is the real problem point from your point of view?
Washington, believe it or not, Kara, is a huge player in this story. And we tell this through a DEA agent named Joe Renizese. So Joe Renizese is a lawyer, he's a pharmacologist, he's a longtime DEA agent for 30 years, and he was in charge of the unit that regulated and policed the drug industry. And he figured out early on that this went beyond the doctors, this went beyond the pharmacies.
This went to the companies, the manufacturers and the distributors who knew where every pill was going in America and kept shipping, even though we were behind the opioid epidemic. So Joe Renizese goes after the company. He and his team start, they figure out because they have a confidential DEA database that says where every pill goes, they start shutting down their warehouses. They start forcing them to pay millions of dollars in fines.
And the companies are angry and they flake back. And so what they do is first they take the DEA to court, they lose there. So they decide, okay, we got to change the law. They hire high-priced lobbyists, and this is so interesting because somebody's lobbyists actually came from the DEA, they lure them away from the DEA.
And they get to members of Congress through campaign contributions and lobbyists. And they actually help write a law that undercuts the DEA and our government, the people who were supposed to protect us from highly addictive pain pills, the companies undercut them by getting a law passed that basically defangs the DEA. It was actually the most stunning story. And Scott and I, Scott and I, I wrote this book together.
I think Cara, you went to journalism school with them. We were stunned by the culpability of Washington in this epidemic. Well, I love your book and I actually am a recovery. I'm actually a little over two years clean from prescription pills.
So they really took me down a little over two years ago. I tried to take my life. I took about 100 benzos and stuff. And I am a classic case of someone that I got all my pills from doctors.
And back in the day, I, you know, like when you're an actor, you get like some injury sometimes, like if you're on stage, you follow whatever. So I think initially I was probably given painkillers when they would give you like 90 for a broken fingernail practically. And, you know, I think what people don't necessarily understand is I really did not fall victim to that addiction until I was honestly like 57 is when like my quote bottom was. And I probably was toying with them for like about five years prior to that.
But I think that folks should understand that this, these drugs, they do seem particularly vicious because they know that a lot of people like me are thinking, well, I'm not doing drugs. So, you know, I'm definitely disappointed to hear that it's, you know, legislators I probably voted for. It's one of the reasons I'm still a little as with Warren fan because I feel like she's one of the few voices that seems to be out there because when I hear that like unbeknownst to me, there was, there were forces actually changing the law so that when I was going through my recovery, I almost couldn't even like go back and figure out like how stuff happened. It's very discouraging.
And I did feel like when I because I would say about pill addiction, there's this expression in AA that first it's magic, then it's medicine, then it's misery. And that's to me what that's what like those painkillers work. And it sucks because you're taking for a legit reason. And you know, then next thing you know, you're dependent on them.
And it's a tragic thing. So, I just get overwhelmed because it seems like this issue is so massive. I hope there's some hope in the future. Because when I read sometimes what these congresspeople or senators take from a farming company, frankly, it's nothing.
It's like 25k and they'll just sell you out. Like, not all these guys are getting absorbed in sums and they shouldn't be, but it's pretty discouraging. So I'm hoping we can make some progress on this issue that it feels like Congress is fighting against me, you know, like against somebody trying to learn about this. I'm so sorry that you went through this and you're right.
It's virtually these painkillers are virtually heroin in a pill. And Scott and I traveled all over the country. We went to the hardest hit areas and we sat with people like you who are going through recovery, people who have lost their loved ones. Sometimes we went to in southern Ohio, New Hampshire, everybody in these towns knew somebody who died from an opioid prediction, who was still struggling, who went through recovery, came out and gone back on them.
I mean, it was such a vicious cycle. And the thing that made us so, I guess, outraged was you juxtapose that pain and what you went through, Kathy, with we got a hold of thousands of internal documents from these companies. And it's so upsetting these emails and these memos because not only did the companies know exactly where the pills were going and where people were dying from these pain pills, but they were laughing about it. They were mocking addicts.
And you know, there's one case, a company, a air source burgen, a distributor. So there's manufacturers, their distributors, their pharmacies. A air source burgen passed around a parody. And it was to the tune of, you remember that sitcom, Beverly Hillbillies, the 1960s sitcom, they changed the words to make fun of Appalachian pilgrims.
I mean, it's really, it's really, it's really, it's just, and they passed that around. And can I just read you one email from a company in St. Louis? This is Malenkry.
And the National Salesman was a very successful guy named Victor Burrelli. And he is selling to a distributor, trying to get him to buy more pills. And he tells this distributor, his name is Steve Cochran, that 1,200 bottles of oxycodone, 30 milligram tablets had just been shipped to his distributor. That's a lot of oxycodone.
And Cochran, the distributor guy, says, keep him coming, fly in out of here. It's like people are addicted to these things or something. Oh, wait, people are. And Burrelli writes back, just like Doritos, key beating will make more.
Whoa, that's sick. Yeah. I mean, the callousness and the insensitivity. So the Sacklers agreed to pay the Sacklers are sort of the poster people for this kind of thing.
A $6 billion settlement, most people didn't think was a lot. There's been several billion dollar settlements. They had to give up control of their company. Where's the impact?
Is it enough? What has to happen to stop that given that it is like Doritos, as all joking aside, it becomes like that. It comes in dispense when you cannot stop taking these things. What is the solution from your perspective?
Well, Karen, that's a really good question. So just some context to that. So 4,000 cities, towns, counties, Indian nations have sued the companies, Purdue, but also all the other ones. But there was this massive beyond the Purdue settlement that you mentioned.
There's a massive $26 billion settlement between Johnson and Johnson, three of the distributors, and these 4,000 plaintiffs. And over 18 years, that $26 billion is supposed to go to prevention, treatment, education, very important for kids. But when we go and talk to the families all over to our suffering, what they're really angry about, yes, there's money that's being paid. They're angry that no executive of these Fortune 500 companies has gone to jail for this crime.
And they haven't even been prosecuted. No one's prosecuted. No one's gone to jail. It's like the banking.
It's like the mortgage crisis. Exactly. So they're like 40,000 people in jail right now on marijuana charges, but no charges have been brought against any executive of these companies. And the families feel like that's what's got to happen to really be an example and to show that the government is serious about dealing with this crisis.
But that will not happen, correct? That is not in the cards. You know, it's highly unlikely. We write about in our book that the DEA tried to make several criminal cases, one against McKesson, one against Malecrot, and then in the end, the government settled.
They find them, which was kind of like a traffic ticket for these companies, frankly. And no one was prosecuted. In my profession, if I do business with one company, they can say, after this, you can't go and do this. For example, let me give you a big example.
If I'm going to be on American Idol, and I'm just an unknown 17 year old there, it's my understanding on that show that you then sign something saying, if you're a successful singer, whether you win or not, you can only work with the label with the American Idol, and you can't, I think, go even really out on your own for like three years. And I find it so discouraging that DEA agents or whatever then go become lobbyists. And we all know why, because the money's great and all this other stuff. But is there anything we can do to at least have a cushion where somebody can't just go from the DEA to one of these big pharmaceuticals or companies that facilitate all this?
Kathy, that is a great question. Because that is Washington at its worst. And that happened big time during the opioid epidemic. In our book, we have this guy, Linden Barber, who worked at the DEA along with Joe Reniziz.
He was one of the top lawyers. He knew how the DEA worked, he knew the weaknesses. He was lured over to the drug industry for a lot of money, not only did Linden Barber, and this is all about money we're talking about, not only did he work against the DEA moving forward, but he helped write that law I was talking about that was passed by Congress that was signed by the Obama administration. Unfortunately, no one was paying attention.
And it completely undercut the DEA. And not only people from the DEA have done this, the Drug Enforcement Administration, people from the Justice Department, former Deputy Attorney General, Durney's General, have gone and worked for the industry, and then they lobby. And so that's a really upsetting. The people that are in government to protect us from just the kind of pills you talked about, Kathy, the kind of pills you took that hurt you and hurt so many others, they're there to protect us from dangerous narcotics.
There are laws to protect us. But those people went over to the other side and worked against us. And it's stunning. And that's a big part of our book.
If you could wave a magic wand and say one thing could happen, each of you, what would it be? And Kathy, what would you like to see happen to these people who really were a victim of over prescription and the whole way they pull you into these things? What would each of you like to see happen? First, Siri?
Well, so we're in a different part in history now. I've talked to a lot about the history of the story. But the problem is this epidemic continues to this day with fentanyl, which the company started this with prescription pills and it led directly to fentanyl, which is our crisis now. It's pouring over the border.
And just to put that in context, every day 200 people die from fentanyl. That's like a Boeing 237 jet with 200 people going down every day. And if that happened, if a jet went down every day, after about the second or third, I think people would think it's a crisis. What needs to really happen at this moment in history is that people need to educate their kids who are in college and high school, not to take a Xanax, not to take a pill that looks like Oxycodone or an even, this is with cocaine too, because if it has fentanyl in it, even the smallest amount, like equal to a couple of flecks of salt, it could kill you instantly.
And so that's what our country is facing now. Like I said, the company started with prescription pills, but it's now the Mexican cartels learn from our drug companies and they're sending fentanyl over and some of it looks like counterfeit, malentrot, oxycodone. And so I think right now that the message has to be to save our kids from dying. Well, I talked to my kids about this all the time.
Kathy, what would you want? Well, the fentanyl thing really scares me because I was lucky in that I guess I sort of missed that, but I have heard of I have a very good friend who was, as I love being to say, she was a pill girl. And she really did accidentally overdose on fentanyl because she thought she was taking one of her like a Xanax or something. So that stuff is more frightening than anybody realizes whether you're taking it or have a loved one who knows somebody's taking stuff like that.