This week's episode of the Ball and Card podcast is brought to you by the Milgram Experiment. The Milgram Experiment. Let's check up on Jeff and see how it's going. Jeff, how's it going?
I'd have to be honest, I don't like this. Come on, they're mild shocks. Here, like this. Shh!
Ow! See, it isn't that bad. He'll be fine. Yeah, but if he gets a bunch of them, you know he has a bad heart, right?
Did he tell you that? No, but I've met him. Fair enough. But hey, he volunteered.
He knew the risks. Now, let's go over the first set of reviews with him. He's not gonna like this. Doesn't matter.
Ron, can you hear me? I can hear you. Who is this? It's Jared.
Hey! Now, um, I'm just pretending to be shocked, right? Like the actual Milgram Experiment, right? That's right.
Okay. What the hell? He's totally getting shocked. He wouldn't volunteer if he knew.
This is wrong. You're welcome to not take part in this. There's no shame in being a big baby quitter. If you're not man enough to this experiment, I'm sure we'll find someone who he is.
Nothing to worry about. No. Let's just get it over with. Let's go!
For science! Okay, Ron. You have to restace a paper in front of you. Turn them over and tell me what they are.
Looks like one is passages from it, Beth. Oh, one of them is a recipe for R and Sheenie. And one of them is an IMDB user review of Psycho. Good.
I want you to read the IMDB user review to me. Um, no. I'm not doing that. I'll read Beth, okay?
Shocking. Fucker, what was that for? We need you to do what you're told. Please.
Now read the review. Fine. Reviewer. The Prowler 415.
Subject line. Spoiler. Norman is the killer. What the hell?
I'm not reading this. Shocking. Ah! Why did they get stronger?
Tell him it's because he won't do what we tell him. Ron, just do what we tell you and you won't get any more shocks. Do you promise? It really hurt.
You promise Ron, just do what you're told. Now read the review. Okay. Here goes.
I'm a film student. I'm a film student from Phoenix University and we were forced against our will to watch Psycho. In film class. What we were supposed to learn from watching this boring dated piece from the alleged master of suspense, Alfred Hackcock.
Keep going. And up. Please read the review, Ron. Please.
Guys, I can't. Do it. Oh God. Damn it, guys.
Don't make me do this. Please. Keep reading Ron. No.
No. Get in the shocks. No. No.
No. No. No. No.
Jeff, I should have known you'd be two weeks of this experiment. In the real experiment, there were no real electric shocks. This is sick and I'm out of here. Fine.
Get out. We shouldn't have sent a little girl to a man's job anyway. Hey. What's going on out there?
Am I going to get shocked again? That's up to you, isn't it? Send in jets replacement, please. No.
Thank you for coming on such short notice. No problem. Now let me tell you a little bit about the experiment. Phew.
Hold on. That button in the middle of the truck and it's dialing. Dance, motherfucker. Dance.
Nom, stop, I don't. Don't stop. You already know me. You know me.
I know me too. But that was told to be. Hey Jerry, an original recipe or an expert Grisspies? My studio.
My lab. My God. That was awesome. You're grounded.
Welcome to the wild card podcast. I'm your host, Jared Eaton. And my co-pilots on this journey to wherever. I'm my good friends Jeff Curtis and wrong layer what man so Devastated by enduring 45 minutes of negative John who's reviews that he saw a silom in the Stanford prison arguing it would be better for his mental health and it was That was torturing I took both things from last episode That's that's funny because I keep taking both things from episodes and putting in the commercial crazy how we do this We're weird.
Oh, by the way, I gotta say I know last week's topic was probably much more So fast I went out with a book through it Yeah, but listening to the first time that episode and how sad and angry you guys I was really I was one of my favorite episodes. I mean I could hear myself laughing the whole time I could hear Jared laughing the whole time, but I'm a lot of joy even though I knew it was gonna happen. I know I didn't know it was gonna happen I am and I really try not to defend the things I like with such intensity or get upset about other people's opinions But when they're just wrong, well, I think they're looking back at those reviews so much of it was they weren't happy with movie because they didn't like the character Yeah, it was a part of respect. You're a pick the stupidest reviews I thought was like literally had some valid things was I think it was is a 16-count And I can't just say well it was that time period, you know, but for some reason we weren't like oh it was date rate We were like oh the nerd got laid and we were all happy for him But like almost all the other ones were like that was ridiculous.
I don't like these people It was supposed to be ridiculous, but you know, it's a satire. I don't like it home alone. Like he's bad kid Yeah, he's evil. He's gonna hurt those poor men.
But the reason I was with the families dysfunctional of course That's why they're on screen. I had the Wraith and the The races and my homophobia the reason I included that one was because I talked about running the guy over the car That was okay with that person. They were fine. So I went through the news I was like well, some of these will have allergies, but if you have a valet you probably weren't gonna get more than one of them Yeah, if you have a value tree you probably get like four or ten It's a good movie, but I have some issues with this and this sure But people who gives it gives it one people give it one the ones who are like I think these people are just miserable in real life I see the Allely C.D.
I don't know how clever they are that was the thing it's like look how clever I am right now I'm using this one but I don't know what I don't know what I'm doing I'm not doing it I'm not doing it So speaking of cleverness, we've got Ron Blair Ron Blair is here to share with all the decades what this podcast is all about as always Don't you hear for this podcast is about spreading the message of polka and discussing the history of polka artifacts like Stan Yanko, which is accordion strap or Tina Martin's mandolin pick and to celebrate I bring this Welcome America Watch the polka king I'm so To me is the polka king I think if I'm alone Whatever that is tightless, but yeah, it's it's over here for it's a subversive If you didn't know that I can't play with you Listen to the podcast, you know there are quite a few things like one of things that brought us together was theater Right and today's favorite question is actually probably more to revisit Oh, there's a visual questions. There's something we've talked about a while which is musical theater Okay, great terms of like some of our favorite shows we talked a lot about what we want to play Right, which is what are some of your favorite shows and why are those some of your favorite shows in terms of musical theater specifically? I like gypsy really? Yeah, it's really it's a little gritty the characters are flawed and I really like the music great.
Yeah, it's actually really good shot I like it's one of my favorites really I saw the I saw it on Broadway when they They read they brought it back to life when I first moved there. Who's mama Rose at the time? I don't remember okay. I can do the pon de de wands I don't like yeah, I like I mean West Side Story is one of my favorite musicals into the woods is one of my Oh, it was so good.
It's one of my top two. Yeah, I thought we've talked to the woods extensively because I can talk in a What's extensively anything? How much on time makes the list? What's on how about music?
But um and well do this cryo sorry was my entry into musicals and yeah, I mean well It wasn't the first musical I ever saw but it changed my whole perspective I mean you were talking age that when it when it just Christ superstar changed musical theater That's what are some albums that inspired you and that was one that was super smart But the show I saw last year that I hadn't seen before and I didn't know the music from yeah was um The school of rock. Yeah, I'll rock it. I blew me away because I didn't know what to expect Yeah, I blew me away so much that after when I was walking by myself because I have season passes But or tickets, but they're only for me right because they're gift to me for my in-laws after I saw it while I was watching I think I need to bring madly to this so I can't have more tickets and went with her Yeah, that's a great show. I've been listening for a couple years when I got a chance of that last show really was please I think this upcoming season of I don't know if I'm gonna get to sneak it again Yeah, I got to go for it again.
It's not as little tight But I would love to cuz come from where we did that so go on Right there so they got one of the stages, yeah, it's not music for them It's one I think would be a good packed show down the line. Yeah, I agree with it It's really fun. It's like on coming next year That's a great superstar. Oh, I'm here on the outside.
You're on the outside. That's a nice that's a nice How do you seen some new ones that are coming Broadway soon? No, no, I've heard about that and I've seen some of the set design for it looks really neat But man that's enough real client They tried to sell us on groundhog day and they fade. Oh, it's just funny cuz I actually like soundtrack I don't care for it.
I don't like it's a staging, but it's very different Well, I didn't feel as musical theater as some soundtracks have felt it just felt kind of like honest to what it was I'll leap of faith is one of my favorite musical soundtracks. Yeah, but the staging for it was awful It was boring. It was terrible and it was a shame that the staging would ruin a show like that was such a good soundtrack I love the story. I'm a big fan of the film.
Jekyll and Hyde is one. It's It's got great music. It's really dark. Yeah, there's not a lot of hope in there But that's one that soundtrack I can just turn on just put on anytime because that's the music is almost each song is as epic as one for I thought that one with David Hasselhoff I remember you two because that's on there.
I don't hate it. I think something is probably my favorite newer show Yeah, I've been using it as something rotten. That one's so damn hard. I just that one that she had to take a second I was playing it exactly the same time.
I think it's for that too, and I wasn't able to say it And that's the one I really wanted to see. Me too. Me too. I'm going to be too mature with that thing.
Damn it. I did get tickets for Hamlet, which is coming in. I'm not Hamletin, which is coming in on the rap musical. Yeah, I love that.
I'm like right. Hamilton. Yeah, actually I'm a big fan of hairspray. I like your good show.
I'm done and I don't think I'm going to care for you to play again, but I like the music show. It's fun And I think I think it's one I would like to do again while we're in a different role. I just I'll have a message. I'm often asked if I would do it again.
I don't know. Yeah, I Yeah, it's a it's a hard role to play. It's a good thing demanding role to play Edna Edna Turidblad Yeah, I played like Clark and we did it between the makeup and the heels and the wheels. I saw the show together.
It was better for sure. It was like a first-class show. Oh, that's sweet. What was your friend?
Oh, yours was a miracle. I just thought there was a nug-nose. Ignat-nose is what everyone's name is, but that's what I was. Ignatius?
What's I doing at the time? You were doing Lemme Attenor. It's because you got cast in Lemme Attenor and so I went to the playhouse and did your audition for Lemme Attenor. I did.
Yeah. I saw Lemme Attenor. I saw Lemme Attenor. Yeah, Lemme Attenor is one of my I'd walk into and go I know this I know this guy.
I know this guy. I'm getting cast by Hill. That was the only second show I ever seen in the pack because I saw I did it. It was a buzz and saw it.
How much fun. It's all the fun. I did help build the set for Lemme Attenor. Did you?
I don't play up all those walls. I mean they didn't build them, but they brought them in. It was prefabricated, but it was an oversetteller. It was a pain in the ass to mount those up.
Yeah, we struck those and it was a pain in the ass. I'll tell you another show I would do again in a heartbeat is Onjback. Onjback was good to watch. That music.
I don't think I want to do it. It's good as any music I've done in music. It's great music and it is a really good show. For me it was a lot of work at the same time that I was preparing to do the second show of Heroicness.
So my memories of it are not as fond as Jared's, but that's because of the space my head was in at the time. It was jolly as normal. It's funny though. Of all the shows I had this most rolling.
Almost every other show I've done. I've had a bigger roller. You wanted Viva so badly. No, I couldn't sing it.
No. I didn't know who else could do Viva's. I'm like, no problems here. I had no place because dang it.
So I just get something that brought all three of us together in musical theater. It's fun to revisit some of these things. We'd love to hear your thoughts and decades on musicals. You enjoy musicals.
You obviously want to see the wild cards and cast us as. That's really what we want to do. I want to wear a selfish invasion. I was talking to the urns last night and I was doing an injury story.
We were talking about injury stories. I would like to hear more of those injuries on stage. If people have, Emily Kohler has. Emily Kohler has.
Emily Kohler could do her own episode on episode. Emily and I are two people that I know of that have been cut, sliced open on stage. I need to cut myself on stage. I never cut myself on stage.
That's what started Chris Serns. More retailer beating the shit out of Chris Serns with a log and then actually clocking him in the head. Mine was during Joseph and the Bayon Technical Dreamcoat. It was a dangerous show.
We had a concert style on stage with an elevated section in the middle of the acting area. During those Canaan days in Act 2, we set up a little French cat facing. I was bringing out a small table with a circle base that goes out to the round table. I was stepping up on the ledge but I was trying to look at the audience and I didn't reach high enough and caught the lip and faceplank of the table.
I was sitting down during a performance. I mean, I've recovered probably not as quickly as I did. But you were okay. There was one show where my injury was part of the show.
It was crazy for you when I was sitting on this ledge. We built these three facades. One was a feed store. One was a theatre and something else.
And there was a railing and I leaned on it. I was probably on a four or five feet off the ground. There was a guy who comes on stage and said this time is deader than blah blah blah. I don't know what the joke is.
And when he said that line, I added this because it's not a strip. I just fell off the railing. And I was like, I was never told anyone if I was doing it. The director is doing it.
The director is doing it on stage. I was wondering a show. They tell me we don't do that, but they don't want to keep it because it's so fun. Here's the problem was because I didn't tell them on stage, people wrote character on stage.
You ruined the show. Then they told me to keep it in and the funny thing is they did a documentary about the show because it went to the international festival and that got its own scene in the documentary. Here's the thing they took my notes every night. But the laugh is so good.
Well, I was about to say it's worth it. I was deader than I was deader than I was deader than I was deader. So I just rotated off the railing and fell like I first down and just left every night. I was so funny.
That's good. Hey, before we start our episode, I want to make a retraction. Natalie Wood was not wearing a mean coat. I have to wear a mean coat.
I have to wear a mean coat. I have to wear a mean coat. I have to wear a shiny blue jacket like a coat. It went a mean coat.
Sorry, Dad. Someone called out a huge re-up on it. No, I just kept remembering, oh, I've got to make a retraction. And then I finally remembered today.
Great. Thanks for the retraction that nobody remembers. Oh, I'm sure there's a lot more. I'll have to leave on it.
I will readily admit. I'll buy at least one episode. Once per episode and I don't. That was loud.
That was loud. I said I'm doing it. That was loud. Eight times per episode.
That's true. And there's one lie for this one. It's not a lie. It is about polka.
What? This is a Jeff's head. It's about polka. Jeff has a stack of paper in front of him.
Yeah, 50 pages. 53 pages. Ask me, why is it only 53 pages? Why is it only 53 pages?
Because I didn't want to go any longer. I appreciate that. That makes sense. That makes complete sense.
What is the title of this record? If you had to give it a title. If I give you the title, it's going to give it away. We'll give nothing away and it has nothing to do with reports.
So, let's just get started and then I'll give you my title as soon as you guys get what we're doing. Uncle Farley's knuckleform. That's the name of it. No, Uncle Farley's monkey.
They said knuckleform. I did. All right, knuckleheads. Listen up.
All right. We'll never get through this. If I do the usual Jeff's episode, I'm not going to do it. I'm probably still going to do it.
Why is it a lamb over here? Okay. This is my first question. Peaceful is a bunny.
What is a self-fulfilling prophecy? Oh, that's where you say, I'm not going to do good on this test and you don't because you already said I'm not going to do it on this test. You said I'm so low. You didn't even practice or try.
You already predicted your own failure. I'm going to do math. That's a why bother setting. Right.
Exactly. Okay. I'm sure. When you wish to share.
I think no. No, I don't. I don't think I do. Yeah.
Nothing really comes to mind. Okay. All right. I'll take that and move on.
Either of you have been accused of having a Messiah complex. Is that where I think someone's a Messiah or are the Messiah? Yeah. Yeah.
Are the Messiah. No, that happens a lot. Is this another episode about me? No.
Okay. Dr. is well often accused of having the power to give or take lives. Lives are in their hands.
So sometimes with that kind of power comes in your own head space. Right. Right. So either you have ever experienced having a Messiah complex.
Yeah, I have. I'm sure I have. I have people who should bow down to me. No, I don't know.
You mean me saying people should bow down to me. I know, but they do. Okay. Someone doing it's weird.
That is weird. I know, right? Okay. What was my last episode about?
Seishum Asana. Definistrations. Jared was right. You were wrong.
You get shot. Not only was that episode. That was a Jacob. It was a Jacob.
The first episode was about what? The color wheel. Wow. No, it was about human experimentation.
I remember the first one. I remember the first one. And how authoritarian power takes people in places where they wouldn't necessarily go on their own. Right.
So if we combine both of those ideas, what was the, what, what did you think I was going to do it about? Is it enough, so I suggested to it. It is an episode. Is it an episode on the stuff of philanthropicity?
Come on. Ron? You haven't caught up yet? Don't keep going.
It's the way it goes. Oh. Oh, David Koresh the David. It's in my box.
You got to be a fan of this. You got to be a fan of this. You got to be a fan of this. All right, so the name of this title is actually the Wild Cards Live to Match.
Very good. Oh, that is accurate. It comes in to match. All right, so I have to say that this has been one of the most disturbing reports, research projects I have ever done in my life.
Well, did the religion in general disturb you? Because the old lady that ran it before David Gresch. Well, we're going to get all the reviews. There's a lot of disturbing things in it.
But most of that found myself getting angry and erud, and the more research I did. And unlike Masada where there was very little research that you could do, there is so many tons of things that you can do. And a lot of it is this right wing conspiracy nonsense. Which we will get into later maybe.
Ron, what would you say the most disturbing report you've done? If you had anything that's bothered you to research? Oh, no. I have an easy answer for mine.
I don't really get bothered by it. Mine was the subject. Mine was the subject. I have to say the actual words.
Because they're worried that he murders. But reading his writings. About the way he would do the lesson children like that. When I was talking about it, I was getting uncomfortable.
Yeah, so what I've done is a lot of this report is, you know, I read a lot of different stuff. I read a lot of different websites. But I also read there was a report made to the assistant director of the Justice Department made on that was released on October 8, 1993. There are parts of that narrative that I looked at and put into my report because it had everything laid out.
There are parts of this report come from the John Danforth Special Counsel Report that was done in 2000. So parts of that are in this report and lifted and put in here as part of the narrative. But I also read parts of the Congress' findings on the report. I've seen videos.
I've read transcripts of the negotiations between, or some of the negotiations between the negotiators, the FBI and the branch of the videos. And so there are thousands and thousands of pages of those, which I didn't really all, but there's so much information out there. That part of my problem was stripping this down into something that people can follow without making it Wikipedia where it's just this gloss over. So what a lot of this report is actually a chronology of events that take us through.
And I think you'll find it very easy to follow. That's fascinating. Call this. OK.
All right, so let's begin with who the branch of the beginning were. All right. All right. They were.
Yeah. I can't speak today. OK. So I have a bit of a stroke.
The Davidian Church was formed in 1929 by Victor Houtef as an offshoot of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. However, it's pronounced. I can't say it now. Yes.
Was it in the beginning of Texas? Was it localized in the Texas area? I don't know how far back that is. The Davidian's, yes.
Houtef was a self-proclaimed prophet, and he called for a renewed focus on biblical scriptures and peer living. He taught that the kingdom of God, i.e. heaven, would be a literal, physical, millennial rule on earth, centered in Palestine. He intended to purify the SDA or the Seventh-day Adventist by recruiting 144,000 believers whom he would lead to the ancient land of Israel where they would meet Christ upon Christ's return.
The origin of the Church was in the Seventh-day Adventist Church was in out of Creek, Michigan. In 1863. And they're everywhere. I think we have them here.
There's millions of people in that church. The Davidian. This is a set that broke off from them. And just to make me clear, we probably don't just say this, but Seventh-day Adventists are good people.
But within any group, you're going to find that. Yeah. Any kind of religion or sub-religion, if you would, any branches going to have their offshoots of kind of kooky behavior. Right.
Well, I've got something to say about that a little bit. Yeah. I'm going to keep going. In 1935, Bigger, how to move to central Texas with 12 followers and establish the Mount Carmel community, named after the ancient site where the prophet Elijah contended with devotees of the pagan god Beow.
According to a surviving member of the branch of the Vidians, David Thibidot, the name wasn't merely honorific. It described the place where the people living there thought they were and who they believe their leader to be. So to them, it really was the prophet. He was the prophet.
This group embraced the teachings that Christ's return to earth was imminent, that the divisions were gods, especially chosen church. And that God communicated with the Davidians through how to. As the prophet. Now, in February 1955, how to die at the age of 69.
And he didn't name a successor. So his followers split into two factions. One following his wife, Florence, and the other following a division by the name of Ben Rodin. You think if anything about Elijah, he didn't die.
He was taken to heaven. So the prophet was a little messed up, which means that man. Any of them, it's like I am the one true source of God's word. Well, there you go.
Okay. So after Florence, how to erroneously claim that the world would end on Wednesday, April 22nd, 1959, she lost her following to Ben Rodin. I don't think that was her first prediction of the world's end that would come true. It may not have been, but that's when she lost her followers and they realized that she was not the prophet.
So Rodin renamed his movement the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Church. In the early 1960s, this new denomination won a series of court battles to control what was by then the 77 acres called Mount Carmel, where fewer than 50 people lived around. At this time in American history, these kind of things sprung up all the time. Yeah, certain offshoots of religion that were a little more odd than what the mainstream was saying.
It was kind of retreating from the culture. Yeah, a lot of counterculture. Go ahead. Okay.
That's okay. When Ben Rodin died in 1978, his wife Lois Rodin took over. That's her. Lois Rodin claimed that she received visions that God is both male and female.
She thought that the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, is female and that Christ will take the form of a woman at his or her second coming. All right. Now in 1981, a 21-year-old named Vernon Howell joined the Davidians. A loser named Vernon Howell.
No, I mean, seriously. He became close to Lois Rodin and traveled with her to Israel in 1983 when he was 23. There he had his first vision from God. In 1984, this now 24-year-old Vernon Howell married the 14-year-old Rachel Jones.
Shortly thereafter, George Rodin, Lois Rodin's son, forced Vernon and his group to leave Mount Carmel. He left with his wife and a few followers and moved to the city of Waco. In early 1985, Howell returned to Israel with his wife. During that visit to Israel, Howell claimed the same spirit that came upon Jesus Christ at his baptism came upon him, Howell, and that he had ceased being an ordinary human being and had become the Christ.
It's a relatively weird thing to unbalanced people. In the spring of 1985, Howell returned to Texas and settled in a town called Palestine with Rachel and a small group of the Vidians. Interesting town in France. Soon, he began to acquire additional wives from amongst his followers.
In 1986, he took 14-year-old Karen Doyle as his second wife and 12-year-old Michelle Jones as his third wife. Then in 1987, 17-year-old Robin Buns and 20-year-old Dana Okamoto became his fourth and fifth wives. And you would like to think this kind of behavior is over, but the Republicans put up a nominee just last year that was admitted that Perfiber was not sorry about it. In 1987, the long-standing rivalry between Howell and George Rodin erupted in a shootout at Mount Carmel.
No one was killed, but Howell and his followers weren't died and tried for attempted murder. They were eventually acquitted. Later that month, Lois Rodin died of natural causes. Later that year, Lois Rodin died of natural causes and Howell assumed power.
In 1990, he changed his name to David Koresh, Koresh meaning death. So now he has control of the entire French community. David meaning king. Well, he doesn't want to bring her death.
That's important when we're talking about the French Davidians. They weren't crazy people. They were normal people who had a devoted belief in Koresh as their Messiah. And so if you believe that they were his disciples and they were committed to him, but if you saw them in normal life, they still just normal people.
They weren't crazy, even though they had believed in this crazy person. One thing I often talk about as a Christian is there are people who on the outside would say all of our beliefs are crazy too, but because Christians are the majority here, ours is the normal and everything else is weird. Everything else is a little odd. Not to recognize the celebrations where crosses were on the neck, which would be like anything else wearing a freaking electric chair on the neck.
It's a torture device. Kill people. And we wear it like it's a beautiful thing because of us it is, but doing it on the outside would seem weird. So people who judge outside the people outside of Christianity is weird.
It's a little ridiculous. That was a lenny Brewster, by the way. If Jesus had died and they liked it, they liked it. They liked it.
They liked it. We already a little electric chair on our neck. Yeah. Yeah.
I know. We really can't get into the process of picking. We'll talk about a lot of the process. Okay.
So let's get into some of the branch of the Indian teachings of David Koresh. Let's do it. I'm looking for a savior for answers. I'm looking for David Koreshian savior.
All right. Well, let's hope you don't follow. I'm looking to be common David Koreshian. The branch David Koresh was the second coming of Christ.
Of course. He taught them that Davidians were God's chosen people, comprising God's chosen church and that God communicated directly with the Davidian church through him. He was the messenger of God. And he believed it, I believe.
I think he really believed it. Either he was good at lying about it or he believed it. I think he probably believed it. He claimed that the spirit of Jesus of Nazareth, Nazareth descended from heaven in 1985 to occupy his body for the remainder of his life on earth and that he received special guidance from God through prophecies.
This divine communication enabled him to update and build upon what had been written in the Bible. He also preached that he was the seventh and final prophet and claimed that his status as savior of God's people was foretold in the seven seals. Yeah. According to sound very Bible-like.
Right. Okay. Okay. According Koresh, the seven seals outlined the sequence of the end of the time on earth, judgment day and eternal life and that he would open all seven seals and trigger the events that would bring about the end of the world.
Good job, David. According to Koresh, the first seal was the revelation that he was Christ and leader of God's people. The second coming of Christ was with a sword. He, the Christ of the last days, was full of sin just like all of the people and he that he had come to save.
He sometimes referred to himself as the sinful Messiah under the first seal, Koresh also claimed that he was entitled to have many wives. He was the only one that he determined. He was the only one that could have sex. We will get to that.
All right. We're not there. Oh my God. We're not even there.
I remember hearing about his craziness. The second seal, it's important to know what all these seals are because they're going to inform the events that were the choice that get made. The second seal was the revelation that he and the Davidians would be at the center of a great war. The first war would be fought in 1995 in or near Israel and would lead to the end of the world.
Koresh would either start the war or be the war's focus. He predicted that the wicked world would learn of his many wives and fight against him out of jealousy and fear that he would seduce other women. That is an astute observation on his mark. I don't think he's crazy.
I don't think he's crazy. I don't think he actually believes that he's the Messiah. I think he might be. I think he was the end though.
He wasn't a very bright guy. He was the world's going to rise. Oh no. Be the very smart guy.
If you read these transcripts between him and other people in his compound and the negotiators, they're all very bright people inside that compound who are very good at manipulation. You can just see them manipulating and trying to twist things. It's amazing reading some of that stuff. But anyway, back to the third seal.
The third seal included the revelation that he and the Davidians had the authority to deceive others. He taught that God deceives people and that he was allowed to lie or cheat whenever he deemed it necessary for the salvation of his followers. The fourth seal was the revelation that he and the Davidians had the authority to kill their enemies. Often this enemy, which he called the beast or Babylon, was the United States government.
The fifth seal was the revelation that the Davidians would be attacked and slain by the Babylonians because of their religious views. There would be an initial attack where God would allow some of his people to be slain. Then God would tell the Davidian faithful to rest yet for a little season after which time the rest of God's people would be slain by the enemy. Okay.
Kuresh told the Davidians that they must be prepared for the inevitable attack on the Davidian complex by the US government. During Bible studies, he taught all adults how to load and operate weapons and the children how to load ammunition into magazines. This is why you asked us about self-fulfilling. Kuresh preached that every man and woman must have a gun prior to the attack and that it was honorable or a Davidian to die during battle by one fire, to a gunshot wound from an enemy or gunshot wound from another Davidian during a mercy killing or three shot from an enemy tank.
Okay. Very much like a masada again. He preached that even though he and the Davidians would lose the battle in accordance with the prophecy, the Davidians would be resurrected or transcended, transcended soon thereafter and rule the earth. The sixth seal would be opened upon his return to earth in glory to rescue the saints and destroy the wicked marking the beginning of judgment day.
The seventh seal was the revelation that the end of the world would come in a hail of fire and mixed with blood. Well, that makes sense. That actually makes sense. I'm with you.
I've started to believe this. I may have been found. So David Koresh taught his followers how to take their own lives and actually plant group suicides. Several Davidians recall that Koresh taught that it was permissible to take your own life if you were trapped in a burning car and knew that you were going to die.
During Bible studies, Koresh taught the Davidians how to kill themselves when trapped in a corner. He showed his followers how to stick a gun in their mouths and pull the trigger. Did he demonstrate that? He didn't demonstrate that.
I didn't. I was going to load a gun in it. He also taught some of his followers how to use hand grenades to kill themselves during battle when all hope is lost. Alright, Koresh preached in Bible studies that fire was a means by which Davidians could be transcended to heaven during battle with battle on.
The Davidians willingly adopted his religious ideology in all aspects of their lives. At one point, Koresh talked about instigating a conflict with the government by going to McDonald's and opening fire on people. I was sure the government. Yeah, well, he's looking to start to fulfill his prophecy.
Alright, so let's talk about his child's sex. All of this- I know. I know. I know.
You don't have to say this wrong. You don't have to say this wrong. You don't have to say this wrong. You understand?
Yes. There were rumors about Koresh's sexual practices with girls before the ATF raid, and they had heard some of these rumors. Now the former compound members told stories about Koresh's alleged practice of having sex with girls as young as 12. Evidence suggested that Koresh had wives who were in their mid teens that Koresh told detail and inappropriate sexual stories in front of the children during his Bible study sessions, and that Koresh taught the young girls that it was a privilege for them to become old enough to have sex with him.
The former compound member described how Koresh would invent theological justifications for his sexual desires, whether they involved having sex with young girls or with other men's adult wives. According to information provided to the FBI, at least two minor girls were wives of Koresh at the time of the standoff. The following is from an ATF special agent, Aguilera's interview of a former compound resident, Jan Buns. Ms.
Buns also told me that Hal had fathered at least 15 children with various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Hal were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven of these children. And with Ms.
Buns, how annulled all marriages of couples who joined his cult, he then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Ms. Buns, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood.
Joyce Sparks, a children's protective service investigation supervisor, interviewed a young girl who was a former resident. And this is what she said. This is what Joyce Sparks said. She entered that the girl entered the cult when she was about three or four years old.
When asked if she could think of any reason that any of the children at the compound would not be saved, she brought up the topic of sexual abuse. She described herself as special and treated differently than other children. She talked about spending time alone with David. And although this was scary, she felt privileged.
She explained that on one occasion when she was 10 years old, her mother left her in a motel room with David. He wasn't bad and he told her to come over to him. She got into bed, David had no pants on, he took off her panties and touched her and then got on top of her. When asked if she knew about any other girls who had experienced this, she said yes.
She reported that she knew about Michelle Jones. When asked how she knew this, she explained that David had talked about having sex with Michelle when she was 14. He told them a Bible study once when it was like when he had sex with Michelle. Now this conversation with this child is being reported on February 26, 1993 before the ATF raid.
So this is all stuff that they're compiling. They're compiling their collage. Right. So they're finding out all this stuff before this stuff begins.
This is another affidavit from a former Davidian Allison Manning and we're almost done with this because this is horrible stuff. Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one, Rachel Olivia Jones, he has sexual relations with other women, two of which were minors at the time of their first encounter. Vernon also discusses relations with Aisha Guy Arthas and Australian girl of 14 years of age, stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new wife, these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him.
All right. So now we're done with this conversation, this horrible thing. This whole report is horrible. So thank you for suggesting that Jared.
That's good. Yeah. All right. Way to go, man.
So the compound, Mount Carmel sat on 70 sun acres which we said 13 miles northeast of Waco, Texas. The main structure was a multi-storied wood frame building in a regular shape and we have to talk about the compound so that we understand the siege. Containment within the building on the ground floor were the men's living quarters, a kitchen and a dining room with adjacent food storage area in a concrete bunker. Several utility rooms, a large band room that served as a chapel with risers, church views, a stage and musical equipment and a gymnasium.
The second floor was located over the entire length of the front of the building and above the food storage area as well as in an area above the northeast portion of the chapel. The second floor was used as quarters for the women and children also contained the quarters for David Koresh. Both the southeast and southwest quarters on the front of the building contained a third floor. A third and fourth floor were located over the food storage area within the concrete bunker.
There was also a tower and a bus that was buried underground to create an underground tunnel to their underground bunker which was lined with guns. Outside there was an unfinished swimming pool. Inside there were bales of haylining many of the walls and there were cans of kerosene and gasoline all over the place. Justin K.
Justin K. That transcends them, burning a lot of transcends them too. If you've ever seen the movie Red State, I like to picture David Koresh compound much as what Kevin Smith had filmed in that. I'm sure he lifted a lot of that story from the wake of siege.
That's very much what it's about and I'm picturing that layout being similar to this layout. We should have all seen it at some point. The complex from outside. No, yeah.
And all that. You see the fine pictures of it. The only running water in the complex was in the kitchen. There were no bathrooms, no toilets, no showers.
People used buckets to relieve themselves as well as buckets of water to clean themselves. At some point they would empty the buckets outside so that during the seas there was no way they could empty it outside so they just kept only got more buckets. Oh god. It's like a pretty big oversight.
No, it's done on purpose. Unless you don't want to put it in fires. Now the branch of the video had stockpiled at least a year's supply of food much of it as meals ready to eat. Maris.
They had an artesian well drilled below their compound so that they had an endless supply of water. The water would come up hot and then be cooled in a tank before being used. There's debate about whether or not the pump was working. They had been trucking in water before the siege.
At one point during the siege the water tank had been filled again. So it had to have been filled from there well. Now let's talk about guns. Oh, they had an arsenal.
Well, and the guns were the main reason the ATF did their initial raid. No, no citizen show that amount of firearms. That's like military grade. Well, let's talk about this.
The branch of video had a huge stockpile of weapons. After the end of the siege, 305 firearms and approximately 1.9 million rounds of cooked up or spent ammunition were found. And how many people were living in the compound at this point? Well, before the ATF, there was about 120.