This week's episode of Wild Card Podcast is brought to you by... Wait a minute! It looks like we have a caller! What?
Wild Card Studios! What's on your mind? Hi! First time caller!
Big fan! Where were you guys last week? Well, unfortunately I lost power in it because of the ice storm that we had a couple weeks ago, and it took the utilities company a little while to put the power back on in my house. Unfortunately, it also occurred over Thanksgiving which wasn't that much fun for me, but the power's back on and we are happy to be back on the air.
Thanks! I love most of you guys! We love you too! Next caller!
Wild Cards! What you got? Hi, marginal fan! I'm so glad you survived the ice storm, but why weren't there any old podcast uploaded last time?
Oh, I'll take this one's a good question. Normally I upload new episodes on my laptop every Wednesday, and I've been uploading some of the older ones from the library on do iTunes as well. Unfortunately, my laptop died this week and I've had all of our podcast data on it. Luckily, I have a new laptop, got all the data transferred over, and this week then I'm only going to get a new episode, but you're going to get several of the old ones as well.
Okay, dumb. Bye bye! Wow! Another call!
We never got this many calls! We never get calls! Pittsburgh PA! Talk to me!
Yes, hi guys! I really like other podcasts, but quick question! What does Ron do? Oh guys, I can take this...
I... I bring you... What do you do, Ron? I eat the food.
You eat a lot! Often. The foods. There was that time you...
No, that was Jerry's man. I have smoke. Yeah, you smoke from every time. It was one time we actually stopped the episode and you want to smoke.
Yeah. That's a good question. That's a good question. That's what I thought.
You know what? I'm so tired. We thought we'd take phone calls for one time and let people talk to us about what they think about the podcast and the old episodes they enjoyed and maybe the direction we go in the future, but anyone wants to talk about is the one time we did post an episode! This is shit!
I'm out of here! Jerry Quit being so emotional! Come back here. Yeah!
Hello? Are you still there? Cause I can't hang up. No.
Welcome to The Walekard podcast! I'm your host, Jerry Dean and my cope pilots on this journey to wherever are my good friends Jeff Curtis, and it is at this point on our podcast that along comes a spire. He is a man, seemingly without a conscience, From whom the ends always justify the means and thus he clothes his naked villainy with old ark ends stolen forth from Holy Rit and Seen a sink to when most he plays the devil Ron Blair Wow that was a sink. Thank you.
That was exact in succinct both those are quotes from I'm not going to go for it. I'm going to go from V. V. V.
from the third Shakespeare. Oh That's classy. Yeah, I'm on his back Richard the third live All of it's all I'm sure he's fictional character just like you are Either he's a bitch. Okay, that's right.
So we got Ron Blair Jeff Curtis J. But we've actually got three other special guests Would you like to introduce yourselves? I'm hi? I'm a Kenzie Blair basically a wild card by now.
Just say this second No, that's not true. I'm the new Ron. No, no, no, God. I'm not doing this again.
Tell Drake that I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. Drake's dead. Hi, I'm Emily Kohler That's it.
I am really. First time special guest on the wild card podcast. I'm Moira Taylor. Whoo.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I know what you're thinking. You're thinking. No, you can't possibly do.
When there's only three of them They're already indecipherable and now there's six of them. Hold on your butts. I was thinking that your three listeners are here While all those people up there and in the ether are holding on their butts Yeah, keep holding because Ron Blair's about to tell you what this podcast is all about this podcast is about being a man and Doing manly things and what it is to be a man the sensitivity and feelings that we men sometimes feel the things that we go through the wild card Podcast is exploring and defining what it is to be of the male gender Today the wrong day I'm so glad you brought that up. It seems I don't know Too special guest and Kenzie Only appropriate for our favorite question today be like kind of a looking back on the previous episode and say what are some if you've actually Accidentally episode right some favorite moments memories questions topics Especially since it's a long time series last episode.
We can look back We try to remember anything Our musical journey that we've had on the show special it's quite a musical Mostly up to that first because I don't any topics we've ever discussed every enjoy it Wow Trying so I like a lot I like episodes sorry Historical and adventurous and swashbuckling actually Jared's last episode Episode yeah, I had a couple of those I look really fondly on the first episode But I listen to it but the first time in my car and dad was like you got to tell me is this okay? I was like yeah, this is hilarious First ultimate challenge because you guys It made me so happy Favorites I like the tangents where the Initially we talk about a lot of episodes The favorite section longer Question is oh, it was the near death experience one oh and the reason why it wasn't even because of you guys although Jared had a great answer It was because as I was listening to it in my car and Jared said what's your favorite near death experience? I went that's not fair. I almost died at least three times a day at least in my head When you and Drake tried to take over the wild card I love that episode So what about the commercials what are some of your favorite?
Well, I mean it's a here for people First Part of it the other night because my girlfriend was going through like she was listening to music and working and I was like Sitting there playing with the dog because that's what we do is she works and then I like play with the dog But she was listening to it was the first time I'd ever actually like listen to it It's a very unique type of musical it came out about the same time here at Hanson and dear at Hanson's ballot I've got a show stopping number of shows my number whereas come from way as a narrative. She's very narrative It's good, but it's not something you can like sing along to it's not something What you can say? You can't she was like it's not like a jam out to you It's not a curvy show and kind of one of those you just listen to it and so everything in and I yeah I never listened to it before but I really like it. Yeah, you have to wait until I'm old enough to do it, okay?
Well, that's a No, it's always a character in that you easily play it takes care of the animals You're fine Sometimes it just sneaks up and all of a sudden you're the dead character I didn't I play the last year My favorite Ron is so weird one okay big song being fan I love this That's way back I think the Schoolhouse rock was fun because I'm I like the second ultimate challenge though. I thought that was a fun way to present I don't like your challenges because I'm winning and then all the sudden the point is not mattering Go Any of them Point can exist in halfway through where at the end I think No, it's closer because you your questions towards each other right there was like a question like well How the hell it was just like well actually yeah every question was specifically designed for you guys There'll be a fourth of the challenge they sneak up kidding And I think I if I were Jared I would be very angry when the point stopped mattering because I win all the Which is probably the only reason I like I live with the guy who makes it and sometimes he'll be like did you know about this fact and I'll be like that's not real And he'll be like actually it is and that's how I know I'm the answer so I enjoyed the theater episode too because we never talk about there we rarely take it a lot of Favorite questions. Yeah, it's not a full episode. No, it's shown up regularly in like when you do the tough-eye thing Right the show like that was the directing episode was an interesting one.
I think for Jeff I've mentioned this before I love the storytelling Oh, I like that one of the characters and coming up plotlines. I really had a fun time with that one And you went into that with it. I'm like Bad because I if I'm not here if I'm not here for like the recording I have to admit I've missed quite a few there was like a certain point where I wasn't able to make it to all of the recordings And then I've just never got around to listening to it And I got so behind that now I like click on random episode every once in a while And I'll be like was I there for that like no you weren't you should like I like the second alien episode The follow-up commercial about war the world I Will call the Drake series of I played those for him when he came back to live in love him. He was it was so happy I was then when she and Jake and Drake took over the walk Commercials build off of themselves.
Yeah, I like it. We followed up with a remote skin about applies with the extermination Another Jeff so I was the first one I saw the first one was because you like I got so into like what if there were Right Like What do you do? Like the day after that recorded and he's sitting there with a couple want to and I watch him drink it and I was like What about the spoons dad you said you son of a bitch What done deceiver let me just enjoy my want on It's all I've got one time it's all I've got All the one time in the super I Legacy That's what I always podcast when we don't podcast regularly I get The best like how funny not I've mentioned how weird it is whenever I have to work on a Sunday or something and how I will sit at work in the morning Knowing that you guys are recording and I'm like oh man. I'm not sitting on the couch playing pop crop It doesn't into you guys talk and it bunks me out I'm like black told you guys many times that I drive a lot for work So you guys keep me company on a very literally boring Radio but we're three of us are sitting in your back seat I do I'm really sad if I Miserable yeah, I'm kind of excited about with the ability post the older episodes on iTunes That makes me so excited because I know that I'll be able to like catch up like when you post episodes I haven't heard because really the main reason is because they were on YouTube But now since they're on my iTunes I can like pop it on my Bluetooth and then just listen to it in the car Which what I used to do yeah?
And then when we have like see the season Because I didn't have like a city drive at home CD and upload episodes from school It was late in the evening yeah, and I was sad evening I went home back to me kind of because I was driving there I went straight to the school and just put the episode of the people like got to listen to it Yes, I was excited when I put it to you to do you chicken that night always yeah Yeah, I feel like one of the reasons I'm I have listened to the whole time is because we were doing elephant man together Well, yeah, you guys were talking about it and how excited you were and and all that kind of stuff So I feel like that's one of the reasons I've started listening and it was just perfect timing for me Because that's when I started driving for it. Well, it's your story of listening to us driving to work is the aspiration for the song that was in our last I love that when I read the lyrics. I went. Oh, that's spoken.
That has to be spoken That's well even time with that the episode when you were talking about writing music Then I needed to be shared and you just wanted to you know have it out there and I was like, yeah, that's what this is That's what you did. Yeah, shout out to Holly Sexton here complimented the song on my Facebook Yeah It's gonna be all-time radio now The world 1962 a wild car I'm like the egg I'm thinking all the call-ins and people like Why is this happening don't ever play that again? Where can I get this angle the earth cracked open and in scroll that when you play that song we shant had it again? So the rocks too hard rocks too hard.
It's the market least We hope to continue doing it. It's been fun. We're glad to have you guys here today speaking here today. Yes Why are you why did I bring you guys here?
That's all here No one knows why they're here today We're in intervention for me these are the people that we've podcasted The funny thing is an hour after that I would have forgotten What was the About That was the commercial after we topic The portrayal of women in movies and whether or not they represent it well and whether or not they're conversing in their stories have anything to do with Okay, well the battle test was while not the Inspiration for this what if question that we're gonna be answering today it was It was kind of well It's kind of the evidence of why we're talking about this today even though these are this is an idea or thoughts that I've Ponder it over time. Okay from time to let's be honest this show for 75 or so episodes has failed the Bechdel test Consistently Today we fix things My hypothesis when they're having that discussion about why the Hollywood films are the way they are and society And large is the way that it is is it's this focus on masculinity as the ideal right men see throughout history men have you masculinity as an ideal and and they culturally they even it's fostered itself on I believe women Looking at masculine or being told that they're supposed to look at the masculine as the ideal right? So what we are going to be discussing today is a what if question is what if Masculinity wasn't the ideal that society was structured by but feminism or femininity was the ideal that society was structured by and I'm not We're not here to create a utopian world. We're not here to put women Make women more masculine or men more feminine or or changing roles.
I think we do every week naturally what what we are here to do It's a question of what would the world look like if throughout history The feminine had been the ideal that we looked up to as the ideal of humanness as opposed to masculinity And I didn't think we're up to that challenge of having that discussion without some women present Everybody was expecting I'm all for this because the three women at the table here are smarter than we are they're more organized They're more functional women in general have their shit together more than men in general Well, you have you met me? I think that statement is a gender stereotype I don't know that that's true Yeah, I think that there's a lot of women who don't have their shit together and a lot of guys who do have their shit No, I said women in this room. Well, I bring that the women in the room This isn't about this session is not about whether or not women it's not about You know this is about reimagining the world and what it would look like and it's from every standpoint But we'll go ahead. I was gonna that is kind of funny though that he said that because my first thought was I'm not organized more functional But then I was like but I'm really good at pretending to be and then I'd like thought about most of the women I know in my life who if they are not organized and functional they're very good at pretending to be so I mean that I guess that is something to think about because it's very I mean that is a Stereotype and obviously it's not like completely true But also at the same time there is a lot of like pressure on women to like live up to that stereotype to be organized and always have their shit together And always do that I think that stereotype comes from men are out there doing a job while women are taking care of the home and being Organized I think that's a stupid stereotype.
Yeah, I mean I agree It exists in for so long and really we've owned the barriers have only been broken beginning to even break in the last hundred years Even close it was not always been made on it, but severely milled on well if you look around though It's it doesn't take very long if you go looking on the internet for At conservative websites before you get this entitlement of masculinity for women You know men do this women do this men are entitled to this from their women Well, they cling on to this archaic belief because they know they're not as Functionalist women are well, that's it's it's so much of that I think we can't get down on the topic of the conservative ones. I know that maybe but that's not what we're here to discuss Yeah, we're not we're not gonna solve that problem. We are here to talk about what the world would be like So let's just start from a let's just start from a political standpoint. What would the world politically be different?
I think I think the feminine was the ideal before that we have to talk about what the ideal What are the male traits? Yeah, the masking on trace power. Yeah, I mean Regent yeah, okay, then what would the feminine traits be right? Okay?
Okay, but the three of you What do you think are not what what society says that them and traits are but what would you say are authentic them and traits that? Femininity is so I mean I don't know because here's like even as a woman my mind automatically goes to what society says like So it's which is the whole point of this I know and we've never I mean I personally have never been asked to think about Exactly what these traits are different from what society is. I mean I would say like me personally I mean strength is a really big quality I think That's the thing with men's strength is what can I do to others? Yeah, I can do this yeah, it's like within I think biologically it we're always gonna be talking about stereotypes Because yeah, there's no reason that most there have existed because there's a kernel within them a truth So to say that women are more nurturing than men so I'll be like well That's not always true there when we were not sure that may be a fact but also women give birth Yeah, and so in their DNA evolution has selected them to want to preserve life Yeah, while they're always used to women who won't that is a biological foundation upon which humanity exists and life exists that women take care of offspring And legitimate responses like women's responses to life like baby cry or there are actual physical things That brings about in in a woman so I mean that's true That would be the nurturing side is it is a good and trait and I think we also have to look at are we looking at a Feminist a femininity that is toxic or helpful right as for most of history a lot of the masculine things that were dominant They were toxic you can have like yeah, you can have a really healthy masculinity that's not toxic others or you can be very Well, let's let's let's I mean I think regardless of even if you know if society was turned upside down and the feminine was the ideal There would still be there would still be good.
There's still be bad There'd be evil there'd be murder there'd be all this stuff there'd be women who are just as Sadistic as men. Yeah, but so it's so let's talk about it Let's talk about a non-toxic femininity or but or you can talk about both and what you think the difference would be well I feel like the What is the I can't I want to say like toxicness. I don't know I don't know there you know I'm like what is the word Jared probably knows um, but I think that would come with the Responsibility I guess of being because I feel like yet you okay. Why was not in her head?
Just a word responsibility Yeah, but I feel like if like the world was turned I mean then there there would be like a focus on women similar to how there's a focus on men And I feel like the toxicity. Yes, the toxicity comes with that sort of because you are the ideal now So you have to you don't have you know I mean so it would be like the idea that you have to uphold that and I think that's part of where the toxic comes from because it You know, it's we are the ideal so we have this like reputation to maintain We have all of this responsibility to maintain and if we don't do it exactly the way in society now thinks we should then Then we're not doing it right which can form really toxic sort of like ideas and ways of going about things So I feel like it would have to exist obviously would have to exist in some form But I think it would especially exist if the roles were flipped well We're not talking about what we're talking about is flipping ideals, okay So I would go back to this idea of what does femininity look like ideals what they have I think there's one thing that is expected of women. It's not of men when I look as a teacher There's this idea as exists for a long time that men are good at math and science Yeah, I think that was down to the expectation that women are creative and the men are not supposed to be men are supposed to be here's the hard Back here's the science we can do these things women are as good as this stuff We are but they can go create they go to sit and being theater people as we all are yeah as guys When I was a kid and I did theater I was looking at a certain way except that if you look at society It's I don't you know I'm into college for musicians and 90% of them the students men and the the Common idea was that women weren't as good as musicians as men and so it's the same is the same problem that the first cast of Saturday night live had was the men didn't think that women were funny Oh, yeah, even though if you if you go down if you get past the top of these fields You find that there are as many women or more in these fields the people at the top are still focused on a minute now The music industry has changed and there's a lot more women at the top, but if it's still a male Focus and I don't think it is no focused. I think when males get a position of leadership They think it's no focused right therefore it becomes no folks.
I don't know that the ideal is that women are creative I still I was so strongly to the fact that when we were young guys who create things Yeah, that's not the way it's supposed to be yours. We've like sports I also went to school for music and It was a breakdown of what what was the focus of the music performance majors were more there were more male performance majors or heck I went this well I went to get a really good music tech program and then there were I did music therapy and music education were predominantly So just a breakdown and and even looking at those fields of Behind the scenes helping people is education and therapy as opposed to Well more yeah, I saw something the other day, which is just making me think of this But it was like a poster something and it said something like It's fascinating how women are expected to be great cooks yet if you look at in the until it's professional Like women are expected to stay in the kitchen until it's professional and once it becomes a professional career There's it's a male dominated field and I think the same things yeah It really is justify your response because I disagree well I'll give you an example watch the food network every The other day I saw headline where the first female American chef had been given the three star Michelin star rating a female An American female had not up to that point been given that rating because When you get into being a restaurant here and stuff there's over one of the do it, but it's still a male dominated profession Look at the ratio on iron chef. There's a civil over some I was gonna say if you want to show me a kakora I'm going to compare it with the ratio though Even though can't core in now it's going to show your snow on there So got all the other guys there anyway I think we're straying from the actual the actual thing that I was talking about we're talking about what's easy to talk about which is which is the Cultural divide of the sub-instance but what we're doing what we're supposed to be trying to do Yeah, it's great. This is what if society and see it what it would look like in that society as opposed to what it looks like So let's hypothetically say at the cradle of civilization It was it was the woman that was seen as the more dominant partner No, not the more dominant the ideal the ideal because men have We society every society around the globe as far as I know.
Yeah has been structured around the masculine ideal I think you see that a little bit less in some less civilized The question is instead of the male being the ideal that the ultimate thing what if the feminine was what people were striving for you can One example is I'll use in our current world is is Clothing, okay, there's There's the movement for gender neutral clothing or not gender specific But what they mean what most people mean not necessarily But what most people mean is that women that now can dress in the same clothes that men It's not that men can dress in the same clothes as women Yeah, and it's because the masculine is the ideal right it's not that the feminine is ideal if the feminine was the ideal Then people who said that would be saying okay Well now men can finally dress the way women dress because that's the ideal that is at the top of the packing order And then can't because it's seen as a bad thing right? It's one thing to strive to be better It's something else to weaken yourself and make yourself less women started wearing pants They were seen as more equal to men. They were getting into the workplace. They were being more who they wanted to be but if a man puts on a dress He's weaker.
He's fragile. He's unstable He's seen as different. Yeah, because he's more like a woman because he's making himself deliberately less masculine right there One of Madeline's friends didn't want to wear some piece of clothing She said it was too girly and and I've heard other women say that and that's too girly Yeah, there's no equivalent for men No man that's too mad no man would ever say that right because even if they thought that they would be afraid of being judged as being Affeminent for yeah, even well, I mean I can say like as a lesbian I see that a whole lot because I Can dress it as butch as I want and nobody ever really comments on it I mean sometimes it happens But overall if I go out with one of my gay guy friends and he's dressed super feminine and I'm dressed really butch They always comment on the man always like I will never get like Talk like I wore flannels all throughout high school nobody ever said anything to me But if like a guy wore shorts that were a little bit too short or a pink shirt or something like that It's always commented well, so since we're on the clothing topic if I mean and this if feminine was the ideal and it had been throughout history What would that clothing look like and could because I would contend that a lot of what we think of as feminine clothing are ways that women have been pressure to dress Females by their nature give birth as you know science obviously I'm talking about science again And so therefore is a huge huge investment for a woman Yeah, because now I have this gestation period now. I'm off the market now I've got to take care of this thing so I'm very picky about who does this to me and therefore men are showing off men are fighting They're competing and are building and are dancing and are singing whatever the male species does They have to very show about it Whereas if you look like a peacock if I see what color peacock is you're gonna say blue purple green and you're right if you're talking about guy But a pea hen is brown and gray she doesn't have to be show And she also has to blend into her surroundings to protect her young right and so I thought that would be my answer was that there would be less Showy.
No, so I want to hear from the women You don't mind what you just said about the fashion being what kept women separate or kept them put upon like the whole binding of feet Yeah, and in the Chinese culture it was a sign of that her man was wealthy because she did not have to do anything She couldn't she couldn't literally changed her body to not be able to do anything So she could just sit and be waited upon because that showed how much money her man. Yeah Well, I'm buying the big breaks the And if you look at me like it starts so young It's actually when the girls are three and four years old they start binding their feet and it's sorry No, and it's yeah, it's it's and it takes away the woman's But it's a feminine thing, but it totally takes away her but it's not a good thing It's a masking thing imposed imposed upon Well, I was gonna mention bras because as Four of the people at this table at Warner Bra okay, okay And I'm aware of and I'll tell you right now Brawls are bullshit Comfortable and again that had to have been imposed on women to make their breast look more enticing I was fuck a bra If women were like this is the ideal fuck a bra My wife prefers to have a bra on because it provides support for her Yeah, there's a great yeah, dark history episode about the woman who created I love that episode but she's called the bat Yes, yes, no She made it actually no she made it and then her husband found out how popular they were and so he took it and he sold the patent to another Man so he took her invention and sold it to another man and then that man made bank off a bras But really I mean they are there to like support I hate them They're the worst but for a lot of women, especially if you're out of the bigger chest. They're they're important I Know what that's true if the world was if feminine was the ideal what would the clothing look like or what it looked different or what What would women want to dress in if they weren't trying to please a man, but they were wanting to More practical more practical or more comfortable like that. I don't know I mean if you at least in America yeah, any time you got most women are just the same way as most guys nowadays So it's so is the question are they dressed that way because that's what they It would that be the same I think it's difficult to separate this idea of fashion And the way most fashion is used now is I pick the clothes and I'm trying to do it when I say but I work with high school students Okay clothes that make me feel most attractive.
Yeah, that's how I feel most people face to my daughter picks the clothes that makes her blend in with the crowd So that she doesn't stand out. Yeah, I think we're raised to pick the clothes that make us I know I was my mom was constantly you should wear this sweater and you're figuring it's missing And I don't care about that I work close that make me happy I had to learn to do that when I was a kid I picked clothes because mom told me they looked good on me and boys was like that And I don't care what the boys would want. Yeah, I have no race to I have three daughters I struggle every day with letting them choose what their style is what they like to do what what who they want to do to express Themself but also keeping them within some sort of norm of you can't write that you need to like giving them some impression of my my I Clothing has always been kind of weird for me because I mean my mom has always been very much she doesn't like girly things She doesn't wear dresses. She doesn't wear dresses.
She doesn't wear dresses. She doesn't wear dresses. So I mean I was always in I was a t-shirt and jeans kit Which is cool and then and I mean I find t-shirt and jeans very comfortable But as I got older and I started like knowing what I liked the funny thing is is I wear like like for example I don't wear bras anymore I just don't ever and it's just because I don't want to because it's a comfort thing for me Like I don't care and all the time she'll be like but that's now more revealing And that's now more like people boys are gonna look at you and stuff like that and I love the thing where I'm like Yeah, but I'm more comfortable so who cares so I end up wearing things that are more like I guess attractive But simply because I don't like care because it's comfortable for me, but I don't know like it's a very tricky question because there's also the line of like There are some things that I wear because they make me feel more attractive and well, there's nothing wrong with wearing something more Trapphire, but it all depends on I never had a like It depends on why you're doing it though. Yes like I Think culture starts invading our children at a very early age.
Yes regards of the parents desire for it Yeah, I never my wife and I never we weren't in the princesses are showing mad in the princesses or idealizing princesses But there was a certain age where she started I didn't know where she got it Yeah, she picked it up from the culture somehow Yeah, and they discovered these things on the wrong and there was a period when she was four where she wouldn't wear anything But a skirt or a dress and there was I think five times Maybe five times that you were we were able to get her into a pair of pants or a pair of shoes and she cried one time My wife tried to get her where shorts out in the garden. Well dresses are pretty comfortable too Like that's that's the other some dresses are comfortable now That's a funny thing too is you have different types of dresses like the type of dresses I wear are super comfortable and it's literally just because I don't want to wear pants Like that's why because I don't want to take the energy to like put pants on because if you wear a dress You're just throwing something over your body and then you're good and it doesn't take a lot of time Are relatively recent invention historically within the Until I'm dressed I'm with you I mean before the last you know even less than a two thousand years everybody wore basically cloaks So if the feminine was ideal would everyone still be wearing cloaks would we also be wearing some version of a dress or would Fashion be like it is now or would have changed it at all. I don't know. I really I They're definitely as a movement for comfort and yes, there are statistics that 2017 was the first year that the sale of leggings and stretch clothes which are still outsold done and it was the For the first time, you know that it was I think that's another thing to think about too like Well for example after I got to wear maternity pants on stage when I was in big fish I wanted to wear maternity pants all the time.
They were so comfortable Like this is great. I don't feel like there is as the one person in this room has actually been pregnant There is a freedom to when you do not have to care about Formed in things and how the shape of your body looks in in certain clothes It actually was the most freeing when I was on stage like when I got to be a big fish And I got to like how my fake pregnancy belly I got to wear like a maternity and I was thinking throughout the entire show I was like I don't have to suck in like this is one of the first times I've been on stage where I don't have to worry about like Everything showing I get to wear flat shoes. I get to wear maternity pants I was like this is phenomenal and it was the only show I think I've ever been in where I didn't have to like Look awesome because there's not like I don't know It was great because I just I was able to be comfortable on stage and she was like you're tired You don't have to put all of like a whole gigantic face of makeup on she was like it's okay Like and I was like that's phenomenal like that's so great because every time I've been on stage I was like why it just made me think of that if we're going towards thinking of the ideal feminine If we're something being you know that it you do carry life and if that is gives you the freedom to Relax about body image and all of that is that like we're all wearing clothes for all that sort of thing It's that giving your body the space to be be what it's supposed to be no good. Um, what about politics?
I mean there have been women who have been emperors empresses or queens that have ruled countries and kingdoms There's a good look. I forget the author is Shelby Greenwell gave me it's called her land Explorers who are African South America They're exploring some continent and they and they crash land or they get lost in the wilderness and they come across the Solisation is People not like they're oppressed because they're men but women are the ones in charge. Yes kind of the look at how that society would be run All right, what did you learn? That's fair, okay, I don't know it's so interesting to think about though Well, I think I think that there's a lot of people out there who Personally, I think the general idea no matter what people say is that if women were in power there would be like less war and less Aggressiveness, I don't know if that's true at all.
Why do people think that I Think because society sees women as more passive whether that's true or not It's a more than more cooperative Many more cooperative, but but you do often see the female as as they put that trade of passiveness on them Yeah, I think it's an interaction Table like look up in minus right. Oh, you're okay. Well, you're just big on the commando. Yeah Yeah, so I don't know how that would change like I don't know if that would be the thing if society were different But a reasonable woman could also use war to her advantage I'm not gonna say because women are typically seen as passive that it's gonna eradicate war by them being in charge because war has been Necessary at points in time every time I think about this.
I think about high school Oh, yeah, the reason why is because in high school you will see Most boys deal with whatever is going on between them and other people with their fists in the middle of the hallway No, I broke up so many more go fights. I got well. No, I I agree, but I feel like just the at least in my experience When it comes to well also like having a brother Caleb and his buddies will get into a fight And then they'll just wait for it to pass over and then they never talk about again when girls Attack it is very planned There is they probably know how it's going to end and there is a whole lot of things involved in getting it to happen Like if they do have a fist fight It's because somebody has gone around to other people and made these connections and formed this plan to get to that point And I feel just like when you talk about a female killers in history There's a lot of poison involved with women Yeah, it's quieter and it's a little sneakier and I feel like that in politics that might change where I don't know if the amount of like Aggressiveness and like war would change, but I think it would be quite different. It would be different.
It would be different It would be very straight more strategic idea. So a woman wants to kill someone a man wants you to know he killed Yes, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I think classically a lot of the more of murders committed by women are Oh, I lost my kind of thought Moira or Emily did you have any thoughts on what kids are talking about or your own I actually going back to the thought or the feeling that Individualism is is a idea that I Personally I would say I'm a feminist, but I'm more of an individualist right right?
Right, so it's it's a little more challenging to think of like if this is the feminine And that idea of the manipulation and the planning and the strategic fight very much a lady M sort of yeah idea that I think That's an electric to them. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's like both because men are stronger women have to be sneakier any Responses to the Jared's question. Well, just thinking about it's not so much sneaky But just knowing the difference between how I think through a problem versus how Different men in my life as I work with or my husband they just attack the problem Yeah, and I would rather have a plan I mean, I don't know that so much me as a woman but just me as a planner But I need to know if I do this this is gonna happen instead of just attacking I will say okay.
I'm thinking a specific instance. I make this I like to have a plan when that plan degrades Forces the option I was working me county as assistant director and we were doing a show and while we were doing a show It was also an elementary school is using the stage so we have their set on the stage We would have to move it other way so we can do our stuff and move theirs back They were gonna convince we were giving us I was frustrated so we take a giant styrofoam panels You know, I'm talking about like I'm going to know you know, I'm playing and put them in this giant closet where they were too tall So we had to get them these doors and stay in the ball and get everyone in there And about one point times because I'm kids and moving them and I got them jammed which didn't there I'm like, well, what if we know what if we know what if we know what if we know and everyone just step back? I just I mean I hope Yeah I brought up Lady Macbeth and let's explore this for me You couldn't say Moira played my Lady Macbeth. I was Macbeth and I just phrased that in a really misogynistic way myself That's a good example of what we're talking about here because Macbeth We just go ahead and stab the fuck out of everything that was what he did it Lady Macbeth had the idea Well, yeah, yeah, Lady Macbeth had the plan the idea for his ascension He was just Fred Flintstone with a big yeah, but bones She's people with it well But she's the whole shows really about how she pushed him to do more than he would have done And if he hadn't done it he would have been fine.
I mean they would have been getting a little bit is a fucking idiot The character of King Macbeth is a moron He's a dumbass lady Macbeth is the only brain among them and they could have succeeded if Macbeth were what a man is supposed to be Yeah, the masculine and feminine were totally reversed in that yeah She's screw your courage, you know screw your guy. She's not being courageous. Yeah, even when it came to sexuality lady Macbeth was The more masculine she took me back, but that's but that's but that's not what we're that's not the question We're talking about politics. I know but we keep coming back and I realize just how hard this is to separate so difficult I mean the question is what would it the world be like if if if feminine was that you'll not if women were more masculine?
I don't think it's that difficult answer. I think it's difficult to say on top These answer is politics be much more cooperative Congress would do their jobs actually more Even if people disagreed there would be intelligent conversation and then we would come to what do the majority believe is the right answer and the ones who disagree How can we you know? Malify them by adjusting our plans to where it fits everyone? It's never gonna Be the feminine ideally is cooperation Look at it somebody else's viewpoint read minter bad at that I think men see their viewpoint initially act on it sometimes whereas women can seem to look at another person's viewpoint more easily than a man I think Emily has some stuff she wanted to say that we should get them talked over I think we were just saying it's pushed on women.
I think more women are more mature or women much You're faster because we're supposed to do that. I think biological. I think I think I think a lot of I know I was push But you can't do this but you can't what you can't dress us or when because men will look at you you can't do this because Yeah, I did mature maybe we would mature faster than men But I think we mature faster than we're supposed to because my brother never heard you can't do this women will get you Can't talk like this because men women will do this right our version was you can't cry Yes, no, they're yeah, I mean also have issues But they're more stunted we're more and more you have to grow and it's not a healthy growth if women were then the ideal with that Remove some of the imposition would would women impose on men these same rules where you're like where that's I think if it was the ideal men would be allowed to cry because it wouldn't be it wouldn't be viewed as okay We have to be tough can't be a girl about this you know because are you sure though? I do because I don't think if anyone was ideal.
I don't see women saying well you can't cry Or maybe maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm sorry. I think they're getting more conversations about what is causing the emotions Yeah, but yeah, but I'll also say the masculine response to that is but I want to solve the problem I think yeah, we keep trying to think of it as what would women do if they were masculine? It's hard to I mean yeah, like with women were on top they would or women were not we were still flipping roles instead of yeah We're putting women into the masculine roles instead of It's hard to not think of masculinity and The ideal like as the it's hard. It's difficult.
I'm having a hard time switching that I don't know and I can't say like I surround myself with with a lot of women all the time and it's I just I have more friendships with women No, the people in my life like my authority figures and the people I look up to almost all men But when it comes to like my friends and stuff I mean I'm a lesbian too So I don't even have like a boyfriend or anything like that like my who eyes around myself is with my All of my friends who are pretty feminine and my girlfriend who is more feminine than I am and that is strange to me I just I can't I'm having a hard time because I think especially like in relationships I always the more feminine my friend is or the more feminine my girlfriend is the more masculine I'm allowed to be which I don't know if that's just like you think you're allowed to be better You feel the need to be I don't know because here's the thing like for example I said my girlfriend will sit and work she is a planner She is an organizer she gets things done and when I'm with her I don't feel the need to I'm like I forget more things When I'm with her I don't pay as much attention I I don't do that because I know she will be there to be like you forgot your phone or like you did this And I don't know if I do that on I don't think I do that on purpose The same thing goes with like my friend Hannah who's much more feminine than I am when I'm with her She always ends up somehow taking care of me in some way because I am a forgetful person I'm not a very organized person However, I have another friend who is more masculine than I am When I am with them like when I'm with when I'm with her it's like oh I have to do this and then I take on that role where I take care of her I make sure everything is gone I remind her to like do chores I remember like I'm always there to do all of these things So I don't know like it. That's why this question is mind-boggling to me because in my relationships I feel either a feminine or masculine role But you know I don't think that makes this question more difficult because if there's the family that I'm asking roles And we can look at what the feminine role is and say how it's decided to be if this I think empathy is one thing we haven't talked about that we're doing a big component of sight again We're not saying if women were in charge they made change things all you asked was if them and then it was the ideal Well, I don't think I'd still don't think it's a difficult question to answer I think it's work that we have to narrow view on what is feminine and what is masculine and what and what and like men Have to have all of these masculine things and I think masculine You can have masculinity in this little bubble that we have and there's more to it Then we've gotten our history books and we've allowed men to be and then femininity is this little bubble of really quiet and demure and kind It's all spoken and there is more to femininity than we let it be and it's too binary and too narrow And that's why we're having trouble saying on top of it. Yeah, I think when I was talking about my relationship We stayed on topic and that's cold that we're not It's a simple answer I say it's an impossible answer. I don't think this can be I don't think you want to talk about everything else My relationship the funny thing is is I don't know if that's like who I really am or if I'm just filling in what I think the masculine No, I just filling the role or is there a question here's a question because I'll answer it so far as what fashion look like I'm a part of the black that's our relationships but what relationships look like if femininity was the ideal now We talk about relationships Relationships I don't be more equal.
Yes, okay Maybe if feminine role and a masculine role but deep down I think femininity is just equal is treating people like their people and being being upfront and not settling into the roles of You want to have a conversation and I think femininity if you put it as a separate thing makes you like we can't talk to that person about This stuff or it just great come in here when you're in a room full of men and they say there's a lady present We can't say that yeah, that is I myself Because men would be willing to discuss their feelings if they were the ideal men wouldn't be in cell with you can't talk about how you feel So men would talk about how they feel and one of the reasons I think relationships break apart is because we don't talk about it We'll do it. Yeah, we didn't talk about it. It's fine. Yes Wouldn't get married in the first place because they don't know there wouldn't be no structure that you would have to say well I don't know where to go in the relationship now So I guess a better proposal, you know whatever so that there's some and into the means of just being in a relationship Oh, well, I I don't know that I agree with that.
I think people have an innate desire to be with somebody Relationship And I listen to a lot of Australian podcasts and one thing I really like is My wife they often say my partner yeah, I really like that I absolutely agree that that is a term that I I prefer to use I mean because you are when you are married or even you're a committed relationship you are that person's partner You're you're in your position together and and so I that I agree gives it more like equal ground And I feel like it's also less possessive I feel then saying like my like white or my girlfriend or something like that Like it's I don't know I like the term partner I don't use the term partner solely because I've never gotten to say the words my girlfriend That's very exciting when you go to my girlfriend But yeah, I don't know what other topics do you want to say? Alright, well whatever we're not armies. Do you think that men would still be the predominant fighters and armies? What about the look of militaries be different?
Valkyries dude Swooping in on They're cute is also right. Yeah, are they nurturing as well? Yeah, that's the armies we need I will say enough the green bull while women on the women both have testosterone men still have it Yeah, and while you can instill in men when they're young there are ways to there are other ways to have this outlet because of the nature of testosterone They're still going to tend to be more aggressive and often in control. I think would find better outlets for it I still think if you're asking who wants to fight you're going to be more likely to get men But the need for an army.
I think is what would change. Okay, okay. That's that's there. I think there'd be fewer empires It would be much lower I don't think these questions are hard to answer Do you think that historically we would have been more open about sexualities and then as oppressed if we were not straight and cisgender if them And that he was the I don't know.
Yeah Talk about it. Well, we have a lot of things Let me let me ask you this question in it to your question and it's your question. Yes Do you think that those? Those issues would not be open to gender identity is a masculine thing or do you think it's a religious thing?
Yes, and And so coming from that then would religion be different would it look different and would look different enough to Change the response to that question There's two interesting aspects of that one is again going to the stereotype of women being more empathetic There'd be more open discussion about how people feel and being set in some other people's feelings But I also think and as you're free this week on this if you like this I know you feel about this that I feel in some ways Gender identities are in response to oppression Not entirely people are who they are But I think there is something to people have been confined for so long that they are not going to be what you say they are Yeah, and I don't I don't say they entirely would go away I think it would look different if they hadn't been if I hadn't been to suppression for thousands I think there's been an explosion because of all the oppression. Yeah, and because it's okay to talk about this stuff. Yeah, yeah But like if it happened part of it is well, it's religious You can't use but if taking religion out it which is really hard to do I think in the past if it wasn't like you have to be masculine therefore you cannot be like a woman and like I Well if you look at like just this topic Christianity for a second Yeah, or because it's it's the time of year where we have war and Christmas North Pole if you look at the person of Jesus as at least portrayed in the Bible. It's a very feminine person Yeah, it's more of a feminine ideal than it is a masculine ideal most of the time as Though church Christianity for the most part and it's changing the increase in the denominations are wide and there's a whole bunch of different beliefs but Structurally it came out of the Catholic Church and the king from Paul it all became this masculine This masculine thing that was all about the masculine and the feminine was really you not even allowed to participate other than just showing up Yeah, and you know in fact in a Well in the Muslim religion as well, but I think in several Jewish temples when they're loud very very clear in the Bible that When our love is speaking church, right there minstrating the king around it.
Yeah, so we have which the shows that the Bible is written by men Yeah, so if there was a fem if the feminine was ideal I don't see how religion could be the same as it is now There's no way it could be the same because it's so male dominated how I mean how new how new is the concept of a female minister? My God is a brand new concept. Yeah, I went to my high school experience. I'm different from the most of you all I went to in all girls Catholic high school Yeah, and so the idea of femininity and religion totally intertwined there But it was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life But still anytime we had a mass that pretty sad to come so it's right You know the man had to come and represent but there were also times when we did Surfaces or retreats or things where they're you know, we didn't have to have a man tell us what to do But I feel like it was a it was an environment where people were recognized as themselves as individuals Which is probably why I go based on that we accepted people for who they were sexuality Sexual orientation whatever it be People were who they were of course they were as someone who has been in ministry I think one of the things that would be most beautiful if we had less of this I think there's so much more cooperation from churches one thing that we have a tradition was our church had a food And it was a good food pantry But when that ministry started there were other churches in the community that food countries and I'm not saying It hurt, but if we added what we could do to what they were already doing instead of competing I'm doing air quotes with people.
It happens though But it's like this is our ministry now As opposed to looking at well what can we do to help the community and how can we work with others my favorite thing I did in all the industry was I coordinate this thing called the apostle build where I got 11 other churches There were 12 of us and we funded it and constructed a habitat for me Yeah, I'll say we each take different days We send people into work we all raise money for it And it's like look what we can do and work together. No, and that just wasn't often what you saw it Well, I can say this as far as women and religion goes I've met a few nuns in my life and I know you have more remit your fair share Yeah, exactly. I'll if I were to choose like a team to go into battle with yeah, I'd have nuns behind me I mean that's not because they're like the crusty old version that you see a nun with a role These are strong women these are strong women with strong ideas They're not I think they're depicted as being like the nun in the blues brothers or whatever But it's not that these are strong women who happen to have dedicated themselves to to the Lord But they're not the ones I met have not been subservient to men in that way. They're tough.
They're tough gals They're smart tough women. I think none's I don't think anybody knows Well, I think that's what I was trying to get to with my high school experience Is that we were we were taught and in school was part of being becoming a strong woman Yeah, and not you know I didn't have to compete against guys in the areas of math and which I love math at math and science for my things I'm not a I love when I was in years like the topic class I'm just gonna be it's I didn't know what would have happened to me if I had to compete against against a guy in In those I'm not a I hate conflict. So I would not have wanted to you know a lot of the women I worked alongside if I was in ministry believe strongly as it says in the Bible that women should serve their husbands And I'm not asking if you believe that I'm asking if you were taught that school like what it was good My home and in my in my home my history is that my mom was a nun and my dad was a priest before they married in my home I'm my mother and I have a sister. So it was there were There were two women on this and they didn't preach and then the second church I worked at it really I was on staff there But I mean county there was a female youth pastor her husband and she believed as did one of the one who was there So they weren't allowed to they should not only that they were allowed to but they should it was wrong for them to any So sad it's just a sad I get if you look at the text that's what the text says and I'm like who cares come on I don't well, I mean my mom also was a director of religious education She took her education to the the people of the congregation and she wanted to enrich people's faith Yeah, and she recognized that the church it was was women like they are the ones that had a life Well, and we're carrying the message and it frustrated her till the day She died that you know that there women couldn't be priests and women were put in a role that you could not do certain things because you were But you know the Catholic Church I don't know whether it's Catholicism in general or that I went to church in a farming community where the generals are little different in farming communities Then they are in in an urban community the women are expected to give birth and then get the plow I mean they're they're expecting to give the man does on the farm and so in the church where I was raised There was there was none of this male dominance that was The farmer woman because she was just as strong and just as a Effectively again, he was part of the team, right?
And I don't doubt that but that's not the question which is what is the I guess not whether or not there was more equality or they weren't expected to work hard It's whether or not the feminine what I think what I wanted one more ideal You'd see the kind of churches that are the kind of area that I grow up in this is I don't know if that's completely true because that to me at least is a more masculine thing Like the women on the farm are seen as more masculine than they are feminine So if femininity was the ideal would we really see what you were just talking about? There's a pragmatism to farming that you break away from them Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying There's a that's the thing about I I'm with Jared on this one and most of the time because you see only one answering the question Because I don't know how to answer the question This is the one I've already full time with because the question is if femininity was the rule would that change the religious texts? Yeah, if you believe no, no, no, if you believe they are divinely inspired I'm not the way they're supposed to be written if you believe in a matter role in how they're written that changes everything I don't want to get into that Oh, yeah, that's a whole other three episodes of the things this is the one I like yeah The other ones I'm like I got this right education well, but typically that was a female role. What it's still except often in the Well also often in the Yeah colleges are I 40 for example this semester this semester of college I had one female professor and she was online Yeah, I had only one male math teacher in all of my school really fascinating because again math science Yeah, that's a very good Only time I have not teacher was the only non honors math class I was like yeah, even though men are good math and science women know the teachers Well in high school in high school everyone of my math teachers were women in college I don't know that there were any female math teachers when I got to college I can't think of any half of my half of my college professors in biology or you know no kid see I was the opposite Every science teacher But my physiology professor was female my genetic slash development Biology professor was female there was a botany professor was female when the old body fish retired so like that was a lot of people in biology I well I didn't take math in college because I went to music college I can't think of any women teachers that I had other than my voice Teacher I think I was male Yeah, my voice teacher was a woman and my voice teacher for the first couple years was a guy he's My psychology I We like other coaches as well I think right now my history professor was a woman however Most of the most of the most of the like when we got our book here ridiculous Well, we got our book though our history book was written by at least three professors at easy easy She was the only woman in that book no like when I looked in that book I was like oh She's the only writer of this book that was a woman so that put a different perspective Aren't you think is it because the history is what the writers make it she was also Record the history it's their point of view.
No Yeah, hopefully they've also writing some truthful stuff about history But history is also it's also history is written by the people who win the If you look at the middle ages are even the time of Bach and Beethoven and you know You don't hear about Amadeus's sister who was just accomplished piano player as he was I know he had a sister You only learn about the guys because the guys are writing history for guys because the guy the male experience is the universal experience It's the idea women well women have stories, but those are the stories for women's If a man writes a book or if I made it about a man more so it's about a guy it's for everyone if it's about a girl It's a girl book. Yeah, that's why we're under We start I always think about Mary Shelley's Frankenstein She won it as a contest. Holy shit. He did against the men of that time.
Well you want to talk about the feminine ideal one Yeah, and her father and mother were the same way They were like when they're awesome when they're great women need equally both of her parents were really ahead of their time in And I believe her father was a journalist. I think we're a family of writers. Yes. Yes.
Yes I don't know Education, yeah, I don't know I don't know the writer. He was very forward and progressive. I think he was a writer Yeah, Mary Shelley's white program Mary Shelley was quite progressive. Yes, she definitely was Not saying you're wrong.
I don't think you're wrong, but she's doubting your own You're right The reason why is because we talked about her in a communications class And I for some reason what you're saying doesn't match up to the thing that's not coming into my head I just know that it doesn't sound quite right, but I'm not saying you're wrong at all I think because society has imposed that I'm always wrong Yeah, that's exactly what's happening Because I'm going to have a couple of tests Frankenstein does film back to test because the one that dies to And she doesn't have a conversation with anyone Because I saw the stage version I think two of them spoke Yeah, it wasn't very short for no Frankenstein's really it's male-dominated But because if it hadn't been her book wouldn't have published right well that brings us back to the beginning of our podcast Which was about how society because we have a masculine ideal deal everything is viewed from the standpoint of how it matches up Or fits into that masculine ideal and if it fits the masculine ideal then it's supposed to be Generally interesting for everybody it's it's about everyone But if it's about them the feminine ideal or about women suddenly it's a girl thing or it's only for women And I don't think we other than Jared. I don't think the rest of us have solved that of what's the world would be like I think we've wrapped it up in a nice little boat Just like we've solved education and we solve it all of it I guess I've done a Jared this though Great job here. I think we're all better people for having done this Yeah This more than almost any other topic we've had maybe with these other two will be pick something I would love your feedback on yeah, well your thoughts on what our society what our world would look like if femininity were the model Yeah, how that would change society our culture all the things pasta I am so goddamn Ladies any closing thoughts as we start to wind down here. I don't know.
I thank you for the invitation I should have had more answers to this and really I don't know well It's the guy show we should I didn't think we were going to come up with a definitive answer I thought it was a question that no one had asked that way before and I thought it would be yeah I think that's why I should read so much. It's because I have never been asked that question And I've never had to think of it that way and I think that's why it kind of threw me They're out there because I don't know how to answer that question because I've never had to think about it And I'm going to think about it for the rest of the day We're taxing the podcast listeners with is not coming up with the answer but thinking about me Yeah, it's like we've done here. That's the journey that In instances in your own Where you have a choice and whether to go to the monosculine or the more feminine or whether if something is happening and it doesn't Is to quote here's where I would say question whether or not, you know We accept things as the norm and we accept them because but is it the norm is that the norm because it's a cultural thing? Is it considered the norm because it's been a masculine ideal for all this time?
But it doesn't really work for what we need to do or is it the norm because it actually applies to both Women and men and other people in a normalized way and I think often it I think we're all guilty of it. We go through our lives and we've been culturally trained to view the world in certain ways Yeah, and even if you question the world the way you've been trained to view the world has seeped into who you are and the way that you interact with it And I think it's good to navelgaze about this stuff I know that our presidents a couple that I could name who think that navelgazing is a bad thing I personally think it's a great thing because it changes the way that we approach problems and solve those problems and it makes it okay to say Okay, well just because it's been this way doesn't mean it has to be this way This isn't necessarily the best way just because it's been the way doesn't mean it's not a good way But you know, it's good to think about these navelgazing is when you was a gazing at a belly button because those are so sad Yeah, it was you're looking at those things instead of doing something you're sitting there thinking through it Oh, okay, it's why I don't know what it is thinking about it It's not sexy, it's my belly button, I'm gonna pull it up I'm gonna pull it up and bend over to see if I say it I'm gonna say if you are interested in these kinds of discussions I mentioned Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman earlier Another book is called The Bees by Lillene I know it's his life No, I'm sorry, that's my moment Lillene Paul is the author it's a book about a society of bees funny I know but it's about a female's life when it in a female on study because that's how bees are The female on society so another interesting book and older one I think that was actually that was definitely early in early in 1930s. I think I think the bees have written in the last four or five years Or surely Jackson's we've always lived in this castle It's a good exploration of gender and the roles that society puts on these people Yeah, and then let us know all these problems Yeah, yeah, let me know What society would be like As always do decades we thank you so much for tuning in we'd love to hear your thoughts on this or any of the favorites Ignore this week's every question just about us. No one cares about us right until next time Say while they while let me stop you right there and by the end