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Thank you very much. It's great to be talking with you. Todd, why don't we begin by having you explain for our listeners your plot structure approach to Genesis? Sure.
So, you know, I use the word plot structure instead of plot because I kind of have a signal to the reader there, whereas plot can have a range of means for people, plot structure, by plot structure, by plot structure. I mean, something specific and that means that I follow Aristotle very closely on that. And for Aristotle, plot structure means that when you have a series of, it means that the organization principle, structure, by plot structure means something specific. And that means that I follow Aristotle pretty closely on that.
And for Aristotle, plot structure means that when you have a series of, it means that the organizing principle of a narrative is plot structure for the movement from tension to then along or to resolution. And so you can have different kinds of organizing principles for for a narrative. You can have a narrative that's organized by analogy or narrative that's organized by, in fact, but in in plot structure that's organized by movement from tension to resolution. And there are different ways to analyze a plot structure.
So there's the frame I see in the property and potential analysis where they say that there are, you know, the six different actants that you can break down a narrative or an action to into that. And you can use that to get to hard of what this narrative or actions about. But I am not sure. I think of those kinds of analysis as being too paragordicmatic.
You know, they look at the grammar and the sentence you have, that was in verbs and adjectives. And so you have these actants and the sequential analysis. And for a career, he thinks that those are good, but they don't, they can miss out a little bit or under emphasize the more syntagmatic, one thing leading to another that is essential in this movement and tension to resolution. So instead of doing this analysis of this is kind of a potential analysis, I simplified a little bit and just look at it in terms of the key being identifying the tension that sets the plot, the plot structure and movement at the beginning of an narrative, and then following that through to the end.
And then that, I think there's something helpful about that in that in case, you know, the way that I follow the plot, it is, is related very closely to my definition of the plot. And that then leads me, it helps me to develop a kind of control over the way that I read. So I had two control questions that I was asking myself, as I'm following the plot to make sure that this plot structure that I see there really is better in the text than that. Not something that I see that I thought is made up.
And that first question is, so if the plot structure is, if the organizing principle is movement and tension to resolution, then all of the different episodes that make up the narrative as a whole, that there shouldn't be any episodes that stick out there as not belonging to that single movement or a single action. I decided to apply one of this as a single action. And that's the only way to do the last structure, but I wanted to look at Genesis and see if that works out in this book. So in other words, so that first control question is, if you have competing proposals for plot structure, the better proposal is the one that makes more sense of all the grace.
So that was my first control question, the next control question as well. You know, there's already a lot of stuff we know about things like the total structure or the total of headings that divide the book. There's an example of something that you have characteristics of the book, you have the repetition of why sister stories are the preference for the non-congenient. So if you have these characteristics that everybody recognizes, then if you suggest that plot structure, it shouldn't go against, should work against the total of headings and the way that they organize the book.
It should work together with them. And conversely, if they're not going to be the conversely, but it is a quarterly event, if there are sections of the book that we don't exactly know how to place or know how they fit in, if a plot, if a suggested plot structure helps make sense of that, then that also is a good way of knowing that this seems to be a good proposal for the plot structure to book. So that was my approach in terms of plot structure and what it is and how it is it also has a control for everybody who has done this correctly. Since Genesis is the first book of the Bible, understanding its plot is crucial for the rest of the Bible story.
What do you see is the plot complication for the Bible story and then for the book of Genesis in particular? Right. So this is something I dealt with as I was writing. They're putting us together.
How do I deal with the plot structure of scripture? I mean, I can't. I'm not writing about that. And yet it's also there.
I think it's also there at the beginning of Genesis. So I think the plot structure of scripture I think is fairly widely recognized and not be complicated. So that helped me out a little bit there. So in that case, I look at Genesis 23, I see the Temple of Sanctuary imagery in the early chapters.
So that, I think, I see the story. So the creation is as a temple is this place that God has created as a dwelling place where he dwells, but it's a dwelling place for humanity. So humans were created to live in the presence of the God in the flesh, at least the heat, the last one of the occasions. But then in chapter 2, men and women are given this special task as the image of God to uphold the creation order.
And then when they don't do that, in Genesis 3, they are removed from this creation sanctuary out of the presence of God. And then obviously raised with the ancient for all of scripture. I think you could follow that group and see how they have people who are doing it. You can see how that works in scripture.
So I think people have done that and I can't argue for that. But so that tension drives all scripture, but not the book of Genesis. Book of Genesis does something. And another key thing to leading up to the plot structure of Genesis is that in Genesis chapter 3 verse 15, the program in Galium, this is somewhat controversial in terms of is this, in God's church is the serpent.
And when he says, you know, I was placing the thing in between you and the woman between your senior seed. You know, he's that, he's that pointing forward to an ultimate victory over, over the serpent. And people are doubtful about that. But I think that I draw him a picture to go back and he says that, you know, if you're reading this from an ancient Near Eastern perspective, then it's pretty natural to think that this talking snake can be associated with this arch enemy of God and the creation conflict kind of theme where now it's not the same because this is just this serpent's part of God's creation.
And so there's no, there's no struggle with God to create. But there is trouble between humanity and the servant. And that brings the kind of chaos back into creation. And that statement then about the struggle in Genesis 3 15 would indicate that through the victory over the serpent, it doesn't say there will be victory, but it indicates that we should look if we want to see the tension of scripture resolved, then we should look for it through the seed of the woman and its defeat of the servant.
And so now this, this is where the cross structure and the following the movement from tension to resolution in the book of Genesis, I think has a lot of potential because now when we start out Genesis chapter 4, so now it gets to the tension that drives Genesis, we start chapter 4 became able narrative. And if we're reading for block, you know, for following the attention of scripture, we're going to be looking for the following carefully, the seed of the woman. And you know, sure that's how Genesis 4 starts out. First Cain is born and then Amblest born.
And so naturally, I think we should be asking the question, so is this the seed through whom we return to God's presence? And you know, you read Genesis 4, it turns out, no. And why not? Well, because Cain's not the seed, because he doesn't master sin.
That's what basically the challenge is God gives him, looking at the door, and his desires for you, but you must master it. And he doesn't master it. And so, Cain then is driven even further from God's presence than and that's where I look at it. I look at chapter 3 and chapter 4 and compare them.
We can see that the chapter 4 of I was the same pattern with lots of parallels, but there are also differences. And the difference is going to the fact that Cain, we might be expecting him, the first beginning to be able to be his back to God's presence, he's not because he does all the same things Adam needed. Only worse. And the contrast, point to that, this idea that he's driven even further, his, and so it's just the opposite of what we would be hoping for.
So Cain is not the seed, because he's not righteous, or he doesn't master sin. And Abel is not the seed, because he doesn't survive. And so, this is the tension, the big question for the consensus. If we're looking for this seed that is going to take us back to God's creation presence, all of a sudden, how's that going to happen?
The seed is going to have to be righteous, and it's going to have to survive. Is it going to do that? How's that going to work out? And so, that's it.
We'll just see the righteous, and we'll survive. So that's not what we're going to do. We'll survive. And we'll just watch for reading a Genesis.
So how would the Abraham narrative fit into this plot structure? Yeah, Abraham is pretty key. But we just give over Noah. And so, in the plot structure, we have to get all the things that we have to get to know for Abraham first.
So, so Noah kind of just quickly to get to Abraham, Noah reinforces this idea that righteousness is important, obviously. And also, that actually, we'll just go back to this four-foot second. Some of the key motifs where all of the book of Genesis are there in Genesis 4. Like, for example, that not all of the seed is in the line of promise, or that the unrighteousness of the seed flattens the survival of the seed, and the righteousness of the seed can lead to the preservation of the seed, and non-preference of the pre-majestic nature, and so on and so forth.
So, all those things are there, and those same themes then get picked up by the Noah narrative, and lead us into Abraham narrative. So, basically, just to say that the Noah narrative reinforces all of those. So, the by the time we get to Abraham narrative, we have a pretty solid expectation that yeah, righteousness is important. And the unrighteousness of the seed threatens the survival of the seed, like a data node, and the flood narrative and like a data node.
We can see the same things happening in Abraham. So, we can see that righteousness is important. Righteousness comes out in chapter 15, where Abraham believes God and God, kind of towards him is righteousness, or you can see it in the Sodom and the Mormon narrative. And then I think it's a very interesting narrative.
I think that in the quote Abraham narrative, last there was a foil. This is what the seed should not be, and that comes up really clearly in just 1819 with the Sodom and the Mormon narrative, because here you have a situation almost like the flood where there's evil in God's going to bring, he's going to absolutely destroy it. But Abraham pleads with God, kind of ours with God. If there's basically, if there's enough righteousness, so the unrighteousness of humanity is threatening its survival again.
But Abraham's saying, well, if there's enough righteousness, will you preserve the seed? And it comes down to really, the question is left, and his house, righteousness is enough to save Sodom and the Mormon. And in the end, he's not, he's not really even righteous enough to save all of his own family. And in the end, I think the text makes this utter unfront that he's only righteous enough to save a little, or a Zor, a little.
And even that is all really because of Abraham and receiving. So there's the head of this Abraham, his righteous theme. It comes out. But you also have this theme in the Abraham narrative that Abraham is not so righteous.
And it runs, it's woven through these same narratives, and it comes out especially in the white sister stories. So that Abraham, just 12, and he goes to Egypt and says, Sarah's my sister, Sarah, and I have one. So I make a case in the book that it actually brings some doubt, some serious doubt, but even if you allow that the text is maybe not so clear on whether or not it's judging Abraham for the sinner, I think it still is raising doubts in readers mind about Abraham's righteousness. And then when you get to chapter 20, I think when he goes to Grog and passes Sarah off as his sister to of a Melodice, that's a different situation because in chapter 18, and the religious narrative just before 1819, God told Abraham that in 17, he said that his offspring would come to Sarah.
And then in 18, he said, in an ear from now, I'll visit you and the son will be born. And before that happens, he's passing out Sarah to to a Melodice as his sister, he's taking her as his wife. And this is this is the unrighteousness of the seed, threatening the survival of the seed in the Abraham narrative. And this produces this idea that hate is, is he righteous or not?
And so you get to Genesis 22, and the need for God to test Abraham. And so God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. And to me, it's kind of a genius moved by the author by Moses to just set this up because the survival of the seed is at risk. If Abraham obeys God and sacrifices Isaac, this is the sum that the God promised to him, and now he's asking him to sacrifice him to an end to this line of promise.
So if Abraham is righteous and obeys God, he puts him into the line. But if he doesn't sacrifice Isaac, then he is disobeying God. So we know from the logic of the narrative that if he disobeys God, he's unrighteous, and he puts the survival of the seed at risk. So it's a known situation for Abraham, that in the end, God, which means brings it all around and says, now I know that you fear me.
Which was the question in that I think in the Genesis 20 account with, with Abhinar and Garar, they fear God, but Abraham we're not so sure about. And now 22 Abraham shows himself to fear the Lord. So that's how that would be an example of how the narrative has been developing right along these lines of will to see the righteous and will survive. It builds up this tension, the resistive righteous, and then you have to test and Abraham in this case proves himself and the narrative can move out in there.
Reading Genesis as a book, how does the Joseph and Judah narrative accomplish the denouement feel free of course to touch on the Jacob cycle? Yeah, you're right. I have to touch on Jacob because Jacob is kind of key part. He brings out the real tension in the story of Genesis because, you know, after Noah and after Abraham, we have this expectation or it's been confirmed for us now two times that the righteousness of the seed is important.
The unrighteousness of the seed threatens the survival of the seed. And I argue in the Jacob narrative, I didn't think this at first, I was going for this idea that Jacob turns out righteous, you know, the struggle, the wrestling with God is the scene where he turns the corner according to a lot of theologians. And I was going in that direction, but I just couldn't get that. It makes sense.
I didn't think that was right. I was stuck. I thought, okay, this is the whole thing is going to fall apart and I have to do something else. But I think in the end, it works better.
It fits together better when you like the text. What it does, which I think is it raises that issue. So here's Jacob who righteous or not righteous is not really clear. It almost seems to be saying that he's got all these opportunities to call him Lord, for example, but never really does until God tells him to.
And then finally does, but first has to get rid of the idols from his house. So in other words, really good for Jacob, then we get to the end of the Jacob narrative and the whole plot structure is at risk because so the seed is supposed to be righteous. If it's going to survive, guys going to carry on with this line of promise. But at the end of the Jacob narrative, we don't know is he is he righteous or not.
It seems like he's not. And yet we do know that God is carrying on with this line. And so that what's going to happen from here is this right is is he not righteous. If this he is not righteous, does it no longer matter or is God going to do something?
So those are the questions. Those are the important questions that we have as we're starting the Joseph narrative. And is this the righteous or not? And does it matter?
Is God going to do anything about it? If it's not. And chances 37 right away answers that question is to see righteous with a big no because just 37 of course, Joseph's brothers first plot are jealous of him because Jacob favors him over the others and then they start calling kill him. Now this looks a lot like Cain and Abel.
So this is Cain Abel all over again, which also leads to a climax or movement towards climax and book of Genesis. And they don't kill him. They're selling him slavery. But by selling him slavery, they have threatened what we all know is everyone who's ever read it knows his two tribes of Israel.
And so it's not all Israel anymore. And so the unrighteousness of the seed has threatened the survival of the seed in that way. And we have this big no to know the seed is not righteous. The seed actually is just like Cain.
So that's 37. And then he gets a 38, which is kind of enigmatic. How is this fitting here? But just 38 answers the second question.
Does it matter? Because now Judah goes down from his brothers, Mary's a came-night woman. These are things that don't look good in the Genesis narrative. And then he has three sons, one, two, three.
The first son aired his evil in the eyes of Lord and now he acts and he puts air to death. And then along comes only. So he has this chance to take over from his brothers to take tomorrow. It says why have a child with her that would preserve the line of air.
But running those calculations and figure this out, that would be I would get a much better financial deal out of this if I remain as the oldest son. You know, I get the double portion. And if I don't take tomorrow and then my ender brother, he'll do it. And then I'll still miss out.
So he keeps her as his wife. But he keeps his seed from her. So he now is doing evil. He's acting unrighteousness.
And his unrighteousness is also threatening the preservation of the wine, of air's line and of the wholeness of Israel. And so he's an evil and the word puts into that. So now Judah steps in. He sees, doesn't see what's happening.
But sees a threat and he's afraid to give his young son to tomorrow. So he does exactly the same thing that only did. He keeps his seed from tomorrow. And now this is a big deal because God killed air because he did what was evil.
God killed only because he did it was evil. Now Judah's done exactly the same thing. Now it's gonna happen. Well, that was about for Judah because when tomorrow shows up that you know I'm pregnant by I'm sure I'm sorry.
I'm not. I'm afraid about the other that owns these and he says he says then she's righteous, not I or she's more righteous than I am. So he has recognized this is just and then she has two sons to take the place of the two that I'm missing. And to me and tomorrow is the great hero in this story and maybe in all of Genesis because she's the one day that against the laws.
Steps in, does the righteous thing and preserves the seed but not just good to see. She turns a whole Genesis narrative around me. Because now the brothers go down to Egypt and Joseph creates this situation where they have an opportunity to do to Benjamin exactly what they did to Joseph. That is sent him into slavery in Egypt.
But this time instead of like in Joseph's case they were, they were completely guilty. But this time they could do it and feel innocent because after all they found the cup and Benjamin sack and so what can we do about it? This is a perfect situation to get rid of this other brother. There's also the favorite brother favored by his father and by Joseph and get offered it's got free and I have to even feel guilty about it.
But that's where Judas steps in and demonstrates his change of character and demonstrates in the end the seed after all has his righteous and that saves the whole story. So that's at the end though of course because you can kind of see a build up through the book of Genesis. So Noah's righteous but not quite at the end of the narrative. Abraham's righteous not righteous and then yeah he pulls it through.
Jacob we don't know but then his brother Judah pulls the whole thing through and he kind of wonders how long can we keep this up. And so that's where the brothers coming to Joseph at the end of Genesis brings us kind of I think a real resolution to the narrative where they come to Joseph and they say you know I probably say you should forgive us. You know afraid of what Joseph will do after Jacob's died. And Joseph and says to them, you meant this for evil against me but God meant it for good in order to preserve the lives of all these people.
And so it points to this idea, this conclusion I think the real climactic conclusion and the resolution within them all to the book of Genesis points to this idea that the seed yes it does have to be righteous and it does have to survive in order to get us back to God's presence. But there's a big question about is the seed really able to do that and the narrative ends with this idea that the God is the one that's going to take care of that somehow you don't know how yeah the God's one is going to take care of that. So that's how that brings the whole book of Genesis to to close. An intriguing and helpful look at Genesis before we let you go to I would you tell us a little bit more about yourself and perhaps about any other projects you're currently working on?
Sure. Yeah I'm I'm from the United States and from the state of Illinois where Wisconsin speaking to Illinois from the North that's where I grew up and but now I find myself as a missionary in Slovakia. So I teach at a seminary, a teacher will have seminary here in Slovakia and I have a wife. Her name is Janicey Slobock she's an eastern Slovakia I met her during my first three years up here and in the American house I only have two children.
Elizabeth my daughter is almost 17 and we have some max. It was 15. I don't know we're we're enjoying this life and and adventure in Slovakia. I'm involved in the seminary.
Me personally my I see my job not so much as to teach in seminary that's what I do but I see my job I'm like my calling more as to help the church read and understand scripture better and bring that into everyday life and so that's what I love doing this. Okay so I don't just teach this and I also work with pastors who are or teaching churches and various opportunities and projects. I was a couple years ago as part of the creation project or evangelical theology in the document creation. It's a it's a it's coming to a temple to religion fund a supportive project at Henry Center for theological education which is actually the evangelical winning school and I'm actually completing still two articles for that which work on are looking at this the relationship between historiography and the biblical text as historiography and as a literary work at the same time how can this text that I think clearly is making claims about things that have in history also be a literary text describing things in and for example as in plot so plot is is the arrangement of events the arrangement of events is not gramological not cause in fact it's a movement from tension to resolution which is why they're using their to engines 30 shows up right where it does it's a perfect literary spot it's not the perfect logical spot so how can it text like this be making truth claims and at the same time doing this in a way that is artistic or mimetic I would say so that that's a tricky question and it is taking me into philosophy of historiography things like that my ultimate goal is to work on is to work on biblical theology and if plot structure is the organizing principle for narrative which is what I wanted to look at and see if that works out in genesis and for me that's a now approving concept that plot structure is the organizing principle of genesis and I think also the organizing principle of scripture so if last structure is the organizing organizing principle of narrative to me and by will say plot structure is the organizing principle for biblical theology and I want to work especially on that area and that is that's why it leads me through the historiography question and how things just how scripture communicates more than just the contingencies of history but also in sense the universals or the theological truths that come through the scripture that all sounds great thank you Todd for being with us today thank you very much it was great to be here and appreciate the invitation.
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