Tomasz Dyl @ GottaBe!

00:00:01:17 - 00:00:08:20EllieToday on the Agency Collective Tales. I am joined by Tomasz Dyl fromGottabe! Marketing. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.00:00:09:07 - 00:00:10:22TomaszHello! And thanks for having me.00:00:11:09 - 00:00:20:24EllieYou're very, very welcome. So, Tomasz, like we always do at theAgency Collective Tales, let's start at the beginning. Tell me a bitabout how your agency started.00:00:21:07 - 00:00:43:05TomaszA few days ago we've turned 14, so it's been a quite a long journeyover the 14 years. I started the business when I was just finishingat college. I was 17 at the time, so hence I give away how old I am.The idea was to create an agency that would help bridge the gap andallow companies to better connect with some of the ethnic minoritiesthat were coming into the country at the time.00:00:43:06 - 00:01:10:19TomaszObviously, 8 countries joined the European Union in 2004, includingPoland, where I'm originally from, and the idea was to build thegap, build a bridge and allow companies to better communicate. Andthere's this massive group of people, massive opportunity. Yetagain, no one is taking advantage of it. So for me, it was aboutbeing able to say to brands saying:"Hello, I can help you, I can get you in front of these guys and Ican do it in a very different way to how you probably go about it."00:01:10:19 - 00:01:29:00TomaszBecause at the time I did it in Polish, we did it in Hungarian, wedid it in Czech and now we serve our clients in 45 differentlanguages, doing exactly what we did 14 years ago, but now even inmuch more through different channels, through different options. Andthat's the little journey. And we've grown quite a bit, obviouslyback in the day00:01:29:00 - 00:01:38:21Tomaszit was just myself. Now we've a strong team of 12 and we've also gottwo offices in the UK and one in Ireland. So we're working acrossthe pond as well, as well as having two offers in the UK00:01:38:21 - 00:01:39:23EllieThat's amazing.00:01:40:03 - 00:01:49:08EllieSo did your 17 year old self have any idea about the scale that youwere going to grow to or did you just see a gap and think:"I'm going to do some good things here?"00:01:49:16 - 00:02:15:19TomaszYes, certainly it was spotting the gap and the whole plan was to doit for three years , whilst I was at uni, get that experience andthen to be able to go to a nine to five job, hopefully being bitmore experienced and saying:"Hey guys, I've actually got some experience now."Well, that plan didn't really materialise, asyou can tell becauseI'm still here, still running the business.But I'm glad I didn't, because I think I would have been so lostworking in a different agency and not being able to build my ownlittle baby.00:02:16:01 - 00:02:35:00TomaszSo yes, certainly it's about finding a gap and taking that gap andreally evolving it. And the last two years have really been crazybecause whilst the pandemic was actually out there and I know a lotof agencies struggled, we've actually pivoted very well and we'vehad more signings in the last two years than we have probably in thelast five years.00:02:35:08 - 00:02:54:24TomaszBut that's because we saw things like what impact of BAME on COVIDand COVID impacting the lower class. And that's opened eyes to a lotof brands who've never considered multicultural marketing before toall of a sudden think:" We need to actually go out and speak to our customers. We need totarget them in a different way. to how we are targeted."00:02:55:09 - 00:03:00:05TomaszAnd people keep on telling us we under-represented so we need to acton our representation somehow.00:03:00:18 - 00:03:12:17EllieBrilliant. So how do you tackle that with brands that perhaps don'tthink diversity, equity and inclusion is important?Do you gently do it, or are you just upfront and say:"Come on guys, what are you doing here?"00:03:13:10 - 00:03:37:02TomaszOh, we're very upfront. We spent the last two years educatingbrands, so from our research and from what we understand is only onein five brands at the moment are doing anything in this space. It'schanging. It's slightly moving to probably one in three but it'sstill a huge gap. I mean, we've got brands out that have neverconsidered it and don't see a reason why they should do.They bluntly told us to our faces:"We don't need to do it, we're quite happy."00:03:37:02 - 00:03:59:09Tomasz"Customers are coming in and we don't need to do anything else."And on the other hand, you've got companies who are thinking:"We really need to be able to change this. We really need to beable to make a difference and ensure that we're talking toeverybody."We're continuously educating brands and agencies as well, because Ithink the problem is between the two: Agencies are not doing enoughto be able to say to them:"We're needing you to push you. We need you to do something more."00:03:59:09 - 00:04:22:23TomaszAnd equally brands need to do more and they need to start realisingthat the world has changed - the society has really gone beyond whatthe traditional family of two plus one is and so on. And we need tostart thinking how do we represent ourselves? And is the marketingthat we're putting out there really representative of today'ssociety and today's audience?00:04:22:23 - 00:04:26:00TomaszAnd for most companies, unfortunately it isn't00:04:26:00 - 00:04:51:01EllieAbsolutely not. I think as well, it's just the:"It's going all right, so why should I change anything?", ratherthan the bigger picture.I think if agencies and brands don't step up and start takingaction and making changes to make themselves more diverse in theirway of thinking, more diverse in their creative projects, thatthey're putting out there, they're going to be so far behind thetimes that brands will just be turned off by them completely.00:04:51:08 - 00:05:18:02TomaszAbsolutely. And as I said, that's why I think the responsibility weput into two parts. It's not just the brands, it's the agencies thathave to do more as well. And we're seeing a shift in one way wherethe agencies are bringing in more diverse teams, they're looking atother options, but I don't think they're still utilising the optionsthat we have when it comes to targeting, because putting an ad witha South Asian family on ITV is not necessarily where that audienceis going to be.00:05:18:02 - 00:05:42:19TomaszThey're watching Zee TV, they're reading Eastern Eye, they'relistening to Sunrise Radio and not Kiss! So we've got to be mindfulthat there is over 250 different publications that are printed inother languages than English and are consumed collectively by agroup of 6 million people. So we need to be able to utilise that. Sothere is a whole brand new world out there that for a lot hasn'tbeen discovered and that's what we're trying to do.00:05:42:20 - 00:05:51:14TomaszWe're saying: "Let us take you on this little journey that youhaven't been on and let's see how we can get you in front of peoplethat you think you are in the front, but actually, you're not.00:05:52:14 - 00:06:03:06EllieThat's really admirable. As an agency founder, what do you thinkagency founders can be doing to make their teams more diverse? Isthere anything you've particularly done with your team?00:06:04:01 - 00:06:30:11TomaszSo we do things like learning to learn, where we take on theculture, we take on a country, and we do a deep dive into them to beable to educate our staff. But equally educate ourselves on whatelse could we be knowing about this audience and what could we dowith them?In terms of diversifying the staff, I think one of the things we'vedone and that works quite well for us is anonymous interviews andfrom the perspective that when we get applications, we don't get tosee people's names.00:06:30:11 - 00:06:53:08TomaszSo straight away, if someone's name is Muhammad it doesn't go intothe bin because we don't think that person is going to do. Where Iknow in some agencies, unfortunately people have experienced it.We've a colleague internally who, because of her background beingRomanian, applied for jobs and because of her name, she juststraightaway got declined. Then she change her name but didn'tchange her CV to Kelly and all of a sudden, started to getinterviews.00:06:53:08 - 00:07:08:01TomaszSo we're judging people by the name. We haven't even got to whattheir experience and everything else is. We've just seen the nameand we think: "Oh, they're foreign, we don't want them." We shouldbe giving everybody equal opportunity no matter what background theyare from what that name they are.00:07:08:08 - 00:07:12:05EllieYeah. Have you faced any prejudice then with your name as an agencyfounder?00:07:12:17 - 00:07:36:14TomaszYes. We have been told we're very foreign and ten years ago I tookquite big offence to it. But right now I think if you notdiversifying, you're not inclusive, I think you're not in the rightspace. I think my name is relatively similar to a English spellingof Tomasz. I say relatively, it's still got a few letter differenceand my surname being Dyl could be anywhere in the world.00:07:36:22 - 00:07:51:05TomaszI don't necessarily get as much probably as people who might haveother names but we have experienced this where we pitched for a bigbrand and the feedback to us is that they would prefer to work witha brand or an agency that is more British than foreign.00:07:51:05 - 00:07:52:21EllieGod. That's so mad!00:07:52:21 - 00:08:12:19EllieThat's society. We've got to get used to it. It's not always goingto be all lovely and useful. Sometimes you will experience that, butit's not just based on someone's nationality. You can experience thesame thing based on your sexuality, based on your colour hair andall that. So there's always going to be someone who's not happy withhow you look, how you come across, and they will pick on you.00:08:13:01 - 00:08:32:02TomaszThat could happen to a Polish person, that can happen to a Romanianperson or that can happen to a Chinese person. Look what we've seentwo years ago, Chinese people being beat up in the streets becausethey brought Covid into the UK. I don't necessarily think it wasthem personally that brought it, but we have seen people beingabused, thrown at, beaten up in the streets because they broughtCovid.00:08:32:03 - 00:08:40:06TomaszIt is a global pandemic. Wake up. Come on, let's look at the news.Let's see what's going on now. And if you're not shortsighted, Ithink you need to have a real good self-check.00:08:40:12 - 00:08:50:07EllieAbsolutely. Yeah. Can you talk me through any real success storiesthat you've had with clients where you have really transformed theirreach?00:08:51:06 - 00:08:58:17TomaszYeah, I would use example of a recent campaign, which earlier thisweek we have actually won an award for campaign of the Year of theGG2 Diversity & Inclusivity Awards.00:08:58:24 - 00:08:59:16EllieThat's amazing.00:09:00:05 - 00:09:26:18TomaszThank you. It's our work with the NHS, working with the Southamptonand Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, CCG, the clinical commissioninggroup, as well as the Hampshire County Council. And the campaign wasvery challenging. It was to try and get more uptake from the EasternEuropean Community on the vaccination.The campaign we faced nationwide, not just in Hampshire. EasternEuropeans, for very odd reasons, have been very reluctant to it.00:09:26:23 - 00:09:57:00TomaszThey didn't necessarily believe in Covid, and they didn'tnecessarily think that they had to get vaccinated. So we ran acampaign where we tried to get rid of the myths. Equally, we triedto deliver educational content to people so it wasn't necessarilyhand holding them and walking them to the nearest vaccinationcentre. We said to them:"We want to give you a choice, but we want to give you the rightinformation."And when we did the initial research, when we did the focus groups,we found that people were reluctant because there wasn't enoughinformation and they couldn't find any information.00:09:57:00 - 00:10:16:20TomaszThey found the gov website being extremely boring, not easy tounderstand. The language over there was very difficult for them, andthey were simply looking for information such as what is a sideeffects, what are the ingredients? Because some people have gotallergies, etc. And what are the options in terms of what are thedifferent vaccines and how do they differ?00:10:16:22 - 00:10:39:09TomaszSo we put all this together into a bilingual leaflet and we workwith local employers, we work with the local ethnic media, but alsodone a lot of work on the ground in terms of speaking to people atvarious places, whether that's that ethnic Polish shop or that's aPolish church or Romanian Saturday school and utilise theopportunity to talk to people, answer any questions and educatethem.00:10:39:16 - 00:10:55:00TomaszAnd again, of course the direction was that once you're ready, comeand get vaccinated, but it wasn't necessarily saying to people:"We've now got you, I'm gonna take your hands, I'm going to put ona handcuff and I'm going to take you to the nearest vaccinationcentre."That wasn't the case. The idea was to increase the awareness anddrive.00:10:55:01 - 00:11:00:11TomaszIn Hampshire, the "White, other" as it's being referred to, becamein the top three of the most vaccinated.00:11:00:17 - 00:11:01:21EllieAmazing.00:11:02:11 - 00:11:24:14TomaszFor us, this particular project was even more important from theperspective that it had a real purpose. We change people's life byexplaining to them and giving them the information they weren'tgetting in first place. And being able to deliver it in a languagethat they understood meant that their information was gettingthrough to them much quicker, than trying to tell them:"Go on the gov website and find out information there, cause Is itall there."00:11:24:21 - 00:11:32:21TomaszSo very often we presume things, but unfortunately we can't do that.We've got to listen to the people that are around us and find outwhat can we do to help them.00:11:33:19 - 00:11:45:06EllieThat's wonderful Tomasz What is it that's been your key lesson overthe past 14 years. Is there anything that you wish you had known inthe first couple of years of running your agency?00:11:45:20 - 00:11:59:16TomaszStarting a business when you're 17, you're very lost. I didn't knowmuch about pricing structure. I didn't do much about how to pitch. Ididn't know how to sell. I had to learn it all by myself. And it wasa very lonely place back then. There was not as much support asthere is around now.00:11:59:16 - 00:12:26:10TomaszWith growth, for me, I had to get my feet on the ground and try towork it out test the waters, etc. If anything, would have been niceto have a mentor who runs an agency and is able to see and take meas somebody that I can mould and get better. So I think I would havereally appreciated that. But 14 years on and now I'm on the GoldmanSachs 10,000 Small Businesses programme, looking to improve theprofitability and grow our business.00:12:26:10 - 00:12:30:16TomaszSo I think I haven't missed out on anything. I'm just 14 years alittle bit late!00:12:31:17 - 00:12:52:07EllieNot at all. The thing that I learned, running The Agency Collectiveis that everybody's on their own journey. You can't mark yoursuccess by looking at another agency because the number of staffthat you have, you might be comfortable with. The lifestyle thatyou've got, the work life balance that you've got, the aspirationsthat you've got. What it is that feeds your soul is so completelydifferent agency to agency.00:12:52:11 - 00:13:04:20EllieI definitely think I'm seeing more of a move for profit withpurpose. It's not enough to just be doing good work. What's behindit? What change are you looking to make? Are you really seeing thatwith clients that you're working with?00:13:05:09 - 00:13:26:07TomaszAbsolutely. I think the reason the clients come to us is that theyreally want to make a purpose and they want to make a change and notnecessarily getting the expertise from the mainstream agencies thatthey work with, and they have to look for specialised ones and thisis why they come to us. But at the same time, we work with a lot ofother agencies who simply put their hand up to the client and say:00:13:26:07 - 00:13:49:09Tomasz"Look, this is outside of our comfort zone. We could probably doit, but we're probably not going to deliver it in the best form. Andthe best possible option. However, we have a partner agency that cando that. And let me introduce you to Tomasz and we will workalongside Tomasz and delivering this campaign. So we will look afterthis aspect of the campaign and they will look after the ethnic andmulticultural aspects. We will create one campaign, but it will beseen by everybody."00:13:49:09 - 00:14:11:07TomaszSo it's great that some agencies have already identified us and arevery keen to work with agencies like us who are just simply anextension to their team because we're not looking to steal any workfrom anybody. We have our own niche and that's where we want tofocus and that's what we want to continue doing as much as we can goafter brands ourselves and do it, I think agencies also need to beable to say to the clients:00:14:11:07 - 00:14:18:08Tomasz"Let's change how we position ourselves, how we market to yourcustomers, and let's look at how we can collaborate with others."00:14:18:08 - 00:14:27:10TomaszIt can open new doors and it's not just for the ethnic minorities.There is a fantastic agency called the Purple Goat that is focussingon disabled influencers.00:14:27:10 - 00:14:53:11TomaszI can't think of a single campaign that's actually showed a disabledinfluencer, but these guys have got their own niche and they workwith some of the world's biggest brands right now because they founda niche and they're going for it. So I think that there is room foreverybody. And I think this is what for us, the big focus for 2022is to make more friends with other agency owners and say to them:"Let's work together.00:14:54:08 - 00:15:12:22EllieThat's brilliant. Just to finish up Tomasz, what would be thebiggest piece of advice you could offer agencies that are perhapsoverwhelmed by the diversity, equity and inclusion piece? They don'tknow where to start. They don't know what to do. What would be sometop tips if maybe you could offer them?00:15:13:07 - 00:15:32:24TomaszI would say you can do two things. You can it to try and find thesolution yourself and try and learn this. But I've been in thisindustry for 14 years and I'm still learning every day somethingdifferent about the different groups of people that surround me. Andthere isn't a day where don't I go:"Wow, I didn't notice this. I could have really benefited from thisfive years ago",00:15:32:24 - 00:15:44:24TomaszBut by simply having this conversation with different people,whether that's a Muslim person, whether that is somebody who isSikh, or whether that's somebody who is Bulgarian or even a Polishperson, you get to know these things.00:15:45:06 - 00:15:58:14TomaszStart with doing your own research and try to get as muchinformation as possible. There are various books. There is so muchcontent online, whether that's webinars, whether that's interviews,podcasts, you can really listen to and get to know this.00:15:58:14 - 00:16:09:02TomaszAnd secondly, don't be afraid to reach out to people who are in theagency space, who specialise in that area, and you find that they'reactually very welcoming and they'll happily give a lot of advice.00:16:09:05 - 00:16:18:02TomaszI think the biggest advice I can say is go out there and speak topeople. There are amazing community groups. You can really get realinsight.00:16:18:02 - 00:16:33:18TomaszThere's so many different reports out there that you can get yourhands on on data and everything else. And even the latestinformation - that new settlement scheme. Again, we're shocked as tohow little awareness there is and how agencies are not utilising theinformation.00:16:33:18 - 00:16:47:20TomaszBut it gives you a breakdown into everything into every Europeannationality and tells you where they're located, how many of themare in the country. And that's a mind blowing exercise because ifwe're running a campaign to Ealing for a client we can think:00:16:47:20 - 00:16:54:23Tomasz"Oh, right, okay, we can really get into these groups because that'swhat the new settlement scheme information has given us and is themost up to date information."00:16:54:23 - 00:17:07:19TomaszWe don't have censuses yet. That's not going to come out for anotherthree or four months. We've already got other information they canbe utilising. So I would definitely say go out there and find theirinformation and you'd be amazed as to how much is out there.00:17:08:22 - 00:17:28:12EllieThat's brilliant advice. Thank you. And what about internally, whatadvice have you got for agencies whose team are all the same raceare all the same nationality? Are all around the same age? Becauselots of agencies say they just hire the best people for the job. Andwhat that means is it tends to be lots of carbon copies of the sameemployee that they're hiring.00:17:29:09 - 00:17:59:01TomaszYeah, I would definitely say try and minimise and strip down yourrecruitment process, where you do blind interviews and everythingelse. So you don't necessarily get to see the name, don't get to seetheir age and just look at that. I think broaden your horizons interms of where you might be recruiting. You can advertise on Indeed,LinkedIn, whatever it might be, or maybe you want to actually lookat some of the publications at the portals that are out there, evenThe Voice, for example, which is one of the leading Afro-Caribbeanpublications, they've got their own portal where you can advertise.00:17:59:01 - 00:18:25:12TomaszSo if you're looking for somebody of Afro-Caribbean origins, equallyadvertise on there, broaden your horizons where you can go out andrecruit. I think the other thing is look at the universities, wherethere is a lot of talent and you can actually pick very nicestudents who are of international background as well. They're ableto come in because you tend to find that people who are from adifferent background tend to bring a lot of different expertise,point of view, and they're very, very desired00:18:25:12 - 00:18:33:08EllieThat's brilliant. Thank you so much. That's been really, reallygreat advice. Really looking forward to seeing what GottaBe! doesnext!00:18:33:14 - 00:18:34:03TomaszThank you.