EPISODE · Dec 6, 2025 · 58 MIN
Unknowing & Unsaying: Apophatic Theology, Relationality, and Becoming — with Prof. Catherine Keller
from Immortal Echoes, Mortal Words · host Rasoul Rahbari-Ghazani
In this episode, I, Rasoul Rahbari-Ghazani, speak with Professor Catherine Keller, an influential theologian and thinker, about the mystery of unknowing and the language of unsaying in Christian mystical thought. Professor Keller—George T. Cobb Professor of Constructive Theology at Drew University—reflects on the living tradition of apophatic-negative theology. Together, we explore how theology becomes relational, how becoming replaces static being, and how mystical insight bridges faith, philosophy, and mysticism. This dialogue unfolds across traditions — from Nicholas of Cusa to Ibn ʿArabī, from process theology to planetary entanglement — revealing how unknowing opens a deeper awareness of our interconnected, sacred cosmos. Topics discussed: The meaning and spiritual depth of negative / apophatic theology The limits of language in speaking about God (unsaying the divine) How “unknowing” nurtures compassion, humility, and relational awareness The concept of becoming and its link to process thought Parallels between Christian and Islamic mystical traditions Love, wonder, and the cosmological vision of relational existence Timeline: 00:00 — Introduction: Who is Professor Catherine Keller? 01:35 — Prof. Keller’s background and research 10:29 — “Professor, can you talk about some of your favorite works?” 21:56 — “What is negative-apophatic theology? How would you describe the spiritual significance of unknowing and unsaying within Christianity?” 38:56 — “Ineffability” 47:20 — What does “becoming” mean in theological-philosophical-mystical literature, and how does it relate to “relationality”? Prof. Keller’s books: The Cloud of the Impossible: https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Impossible-Planetary-Entanglement-Insurrections/dp/0231171153\ Facing Apocalypse: https://www.amazon.com/Facing-Apocalypse-Climate-Democracy-Chances/dp/1626984131 No Matter What: Crisis and the Spirit of Planetary Possibility https://www.amazon.com/No-Matter-What-Planetary-Possibility/dp/1531508731 Visit our Academy of Mystic Poetics and Philosophy, and check out our courses: https://immortalechoes.org/pages/courses If you enjoy the content and wish to support our work, your generosity helps us continue creating: https://immortalechoes.org/pages/donations #ApophaticTheology #NegativeTheology #MysticalTheology #ProcessTheology #ConstructiveTheology #ChristianMysticism #IbnArabi #NicholasOfCusa #Mysticism #InterfaithDialogue #RelationalTheology #Unknowing #Unsaying #Becoming
What this episode covers
In this episode, I, Rasoul Rahbari-Ghazani, speak with Professor Catherine Keller, an influential theologian and thinker, about the mystery of unknowing and the language of unsaying in Christian mystical thought. Professor Keller—George T. Cobb Professor of Constructive Theology at Drew University—reflects on the living tradition of apophatic-negative theology. Together, we explore how theology becomes relational, how becoming replaces static being, and how mystical insight bridges faith, philosophy, and mysticism. This dialogue unfolds across traditions — from Nicholas of Cusa to Ibn ʿArabī, from process theology to planetary entanglement — revealing how unknowing opens a deeper awareness of our interconnected, sacred cosmos. Topics discussed: The meaning and spiritual depth of negative / apophatic theology The limits of language in speaking about God (unsaying the divine) How “unknowing” nurtures compassion, humility, and relational awareness The concept of becoming and its link to process thought Parallels between Christian and Islamic mystical traditions Love, wonder, and the cosmological vision of relational existence Timeline: 00:00 — Introduction: Who is Professor Catherine Keller? 01:35 — Prof. Keller’s background and research 10:29 — “Professor, can you talk about some of your favorite works?” 21:56 — “What is negative-apophatic theology? How would you describe the spiritual significance of unknowing and unsaying within Christianity?” 38:56 — “Ineffability” 47:20 — What does “becoming” mean in theological-philosophical-mystical literature, and how does it relate to “relationality”? Prof. Keller’s books: The Cloud of the Impossible: https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Impossible-Planetary-Entanglement-Insurrections/dp/0231171153\ Facing Apocalypse: https://www.amazon.com/Facing-Apocalypse-Climate-Democracy-Chances/dp/1626984131 No Matter What: Crisis and the Spirit of Planetary Possibility https://www.amazon.com/No-Matter-What-Planetary-Possibility/dp/1531508731 Visit our Academy of Mystic Poetics and Philosophy, and check out our courses: https://immortalechoes.org/pages/courses If you enjoy the content and wish to support our work, your generosity helps us continue creating: https://immortalechoes.org/pages/donations #ApophaticTheology #NegativeTheology #MysticalTheology #ProcessTheology #ConstructiveTheology #ChristianMysticism #IbnArabi #NicholasOfCusa #Mysticism #InterfaithDialogue #RelationalTheology #Unknowing #Unsaying #Becoming
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Unknowing & Unsaying: Apophatic Theology, Relationality, and Becoming — with Prof. Catherine Keller
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