Betrayal Trauma Recovery

“How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy. But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history. In this article we’ll cover the following: The basics about podcasts How to listen podcasts safely and privately Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos Protecting yourself when systems fail Let’s get started. WHAT IS A PODCAST, EXACTLY? A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest. For Example: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you. For iPhone users: Look for and open the Apple Podcasts app OR download Spotify for free from the App Store For Android users: Download Spotify or Youtube Music from the Play Store These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening. STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO Open your app and search for: “Betrayal Trauma Recovery”You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap on the show and then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using). STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi)ORIf you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down) Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history. 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety: Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks. Find btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history. Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually. Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app. Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen. Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This is emotional self-care. LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity… Start here:🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story 3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR? Elinor: 21 years, so a long time. Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have? Elinor: I have three children with him. Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group? Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. Elinor: Yes, drastically. Anne: Which is daunting. Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him. THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF Anne: They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy. They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this. Elinor: Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him. And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if. Anne: One of the message strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION Anne: So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.” Elinor: It flips the tables, doesn’t it? Anne: We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious. They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast” because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered.Did you guys ever try couple therapy? Elinor: No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.” Anne: Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy. Elinor: Uh-huh. DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION Anne: Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs? Elinor: When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case. Anne: Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him? Elinor: He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.” And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?” It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.” And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.” HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH Elinor: And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything. I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?” And he was like, “You’ll never find out.” He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety. I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful. Anne: My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN Anne: Are you divorced now? Elinor: I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly. Anne: Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help. Elinor: I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right? But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying. He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened. IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS Elinor: There was no acknowledgement. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.” I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks. And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse. I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat. I LEFT again, but MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK Elinor: Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents. That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety. After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say. Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him. And I was like, but we need to keep our family together. And she sat in the bathroom and cried for two hours and wouldn’t come out. I should have learned more from that. But I thought, “well, we’re gonna make this so much better.” But no, she never did come back. She was 18 and she just lived on her own after that. Which must have been so incredibly hard, and my heart breaks for her. She knew she would write me, and say, “Mom, when you’re ready, come be with me.” HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE’S STILL ABUSIVE Anne: I think what was happening was all the abuse was still in your head. And you didn’t know that it wasn’t your own thoughts, it was all his abuse, and he was still abusing you. Elinor: Yes. Anne: Even though you were away from him. People don’t understand that. You’re still being abused. So it takes a while for the abuse to drain out of your head, and you have to be away from it in order for that to happen. It wasn’t that you weren’t ready. You hadn’t learned to separate that out. You were in the early stages of learning safety steps like, how do you listen to a podcast and find help online. And the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, has a way to write down what your thoughts are, and then to realize they’re actually not your thoughts. They’re the abuser’s thoughts. That’s helpful for victims. This story haunts me. And the way I came up with some of these workshop strategies comes from this. A woman was like, I will separate from my husband. I feel right about it. She’d prayed about it a ton. She could see all the abuse. She was like, check, check, check. He’s abusive. And she went to the temple, and she came out and said, the spirit told me I needed to stay with him. Elinor: Oh my gosh. Anne: She felt so strongly about it. And I was like, who am I to say that’s not the spirit? But I started wondering, why are women thinking that the spirit tells them to stay in proximity to evil? And then, over time, I realized it’s because the abuser’s abuse is so tangled up in their head that everything feels bad. THE THOUGHT OF LEAVING FEELS TERRIBLE Anne: So when they think about leaving him, it feels really bad, and that doesn’t feel like the spirit. It feels like something else. So you’re like, every time I think about leaving, I feel terrible. And so those who want to follow the spirit and the spirit is peace. The spirit is calm. When we think about leaving, it doesn’t feel peaceful. It doesn’t feel calm. And nobody warns you about that. They’re like, follow the spirit. And you’re like, “Okay, well the spirit is not telling me to leave. ‘Cause every time I think about leaving, my body’s like, no, that’s not right.” And your alarm system is going off. Really what’s happening is your alarm system is going off. It’s telling you danger, danger, danger. But he hijacked it long ago. And so he’s twisted your own internal warning system to tell you to move closer to him rather than away. So you’re just trying to do what the “spirit” is telling you to do, in that moment. So to help explain it to a woman when she’s in that, is what the Betrayal Trauma Workshop is about. Something as simple as learning how do you listen to a podcast safely, can lead to finding help. Yeah, so that she can see the difference between his lies and her actual warning system and what it’s been warning her about. Because they’re so good at manipulating us that they know how to use even our own survival mechanisms against us. Elinor: That is so true, that feels really true to me. IT FELT WRONG TO BREAK UP OUR MARRIAGE Anne: Yeah, so you weren’t doing anything wrong. You just didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you didn’t wanna go against what you thought in the moment was the truth. Elinor: Yeah, definitely, it felt wrong to break up our marriage. I still hadn’t fully admitted to myself how deeply abusive he was. And I kept thinking, oh, we’re gonna make this better. I was so beaten down about every aspect of myself because of all the things he said and did. That I didn’t know who I would be without him. And in my mind, believed that without him, I was lost and worthless. Which obviously is not true. But I felt that way at the time. So I went back and then I stayed there with him for the next year and a half. And my bishop kept checking in on me. People would check in on me, like people knew it wasn’t good, and they were trying to help me, but I wouldn’t go. ‘Cause I’m like, this is my marriage. I’m going to save it somehow. I studied all sorts of psychology things, like I wondered what sort of disorder he might have. Went down all the rabbit holes and had to stop. I left again the third time with my parents’ help, rented a house and lived separately. and stayed separate from him for a couple of months. I actually had a protective order for a few weeks, trying to keep us separate and safe. He was doing all sorts of things, psychologically and spiritually. Just on every single level of abuse. The Moment I Realized How Bad It Really Was Elinor: I had started keeping a journal for my own sanity about what was happening. And I’m glad I did, because one of the things I told myself was, oh, he’s not doing these things very often. But when I started writing it down, I realized he was grabbing me by the throat every two weeks. Every two weeks he would do that, and he had groomed me for this. He just groomed me probably on every level. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding yours was so helpful. But with this whole throat grabbing, he would call it holding my throat. Obviously, this is choking, right? But that’s what I would call it. He holds my throat. And when I would tell people about it, they would just be horrified. But to me it was another Tuesday. When he would grab my throat, he would make me say things and do things. And obviously when someone is holding your throat, you just do what they say. And he would make me repeat things. He would say, “Tell me that I own you.” and I would have to repeat these horrible things. And before I left the third time, it was becoming so overt. He was like, “Tell me about how stupid you are. How stupid are you? Go ahead, humble yourself. Say it out loud.” And I would mumble out the words, because it sickened me. It felt so wrong. And I would say, ‘I’m stupid.” He would say, “Go on, say it a little louder. I couldn’t hear you.” And I would say, “I’m stupid.” He was like, “Go on, say it like you mean it.” I would find myself repeating these horrible things over and over and over again. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND PROTECT YOURSELF Elinor: The psychological abuse is so disturbing. Then right before I left with that protective order, I woke up one night and he was holding me by the throat while I was sleeping. It was hard to breathe, and I just laid there, stock still. I think if anyone else had been in this situation. They would be screaming and like, oh, let go of me, stop it and you have this reaction. But I had been in this so long, I knew I must hold very still. I must not say a word. And then hopefully he will let go, because I knew if I tried to fight against it, it would get worse. Anne: I disagree with you, anyone who’s been through what you had been through would’ve stayed still too. Elinor: Okay. Anne: A hundred percent. What you did sounds totally normal under the circumstances. We know about abuse, and share it so others can learn. Elinor: That’s self preservation. Anne: Yes. Elinor: A lot of the things that I did sound so wackadoo to me now, like they just sound like nonsense. But I appreciate that you understand that’s exactly what you have to do in those circumstances. Just to stay safe. Anne: Yeah, to survive. Elinor: Yeah, my children sometimes talk about how people say, “Oh, you should have done this and you should have done that.” And they’re like, “Sometimes you say it too, Mom, now that we’re out. Like, if I was there again, I would’ve done this, or I wouldn’t have done that.” And they said, “No, we never would’ve, because we all knew it was going to get worse. We all felt that undercurrent of like he was holding back.” I HADN’T RECOGNIZED PHYSICAL ABUSE Anne: That is the manipulation. I think people don’t understand that is the abuse. That you know instinctively that you can’t do that or you’re going to be very injured. Anybody would do that. I look back at what I did and think, what is wrong with me? I would do the opposite. He’d be physically intimidating, like he was gonna punch me in the face, and in my mind I’d be like, let’s see if I could make him punch me in the face. And so I’d push through it. I thought, if he punched me, I would know. Elinor: Yeah. Anne: So I’m pushing through, and he never punched me in the face. So then I was confused. Wait, I guess he’s not abusive. That’s the hard part about it. He could punch you in the face. He could not punch you in the face. Either way, it’s abuse. Elinor: That was one of the things I recognized from your podcast. When I learned how do you listen to a podcast safely, different kinds of things surfaced that I hadn’t recognized were physical abuse. Obviously the throat holding, but like there was a ton of sexual abuse and coercion that I had not put in the physical abuse box. I think many people do this. I categorized, punching and hitting, and like, oh, he pushed me down the steps. That would be physical abuse. But there were so many other things he did that were physical abuse that I learned from listening to you and the people on your podcast. That I was like, oh he’s doing all these things and more. He is physically abusive. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SAFETY WHEN SYSTEMS FAIL Elinor: Like it’s not when he’s gonna be physically abusive. He is now, and he doesn’t always need to get to the next point for me to step in line with what he wants. He just does as much as he needs to, to control me. Which was very effective. Anne: Yeah, it’s scary. Elinor: Yeah, I feel really blessed that we are on this side of it now. I’m glad I know, I’m glad I do not have the desire to ever go back. The third time I left with a protective order. Both times my protective orders failed. I’d have ’em for a couple weeks, and then I would go for the full protective order, and I could not give enough evidence to prove what had happened to me in the eyes of law. And that was so frustrating and demoralizing for me, because all these physically abusive and terribly scary things were happening. But during a six hour court hearing. There just wasn’t enough evidence, the judge said, to bring a protective order against him. And of course, he was so good at presenting himself. He came in not looking like the “abuser”. He presents like a first class citizen, well educated, active in his church and a pillar to the community. And it was so believable that the judge was like, well, he seems like a great guy, and you seem like a great person, and you guys just need to work it out. And that was so heartbreaking for me to tell my story in court in front of other people and policemen, and just such a terrifying environment. Your podcast and learning how do you listen to a podcast would have helped me. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU AREN’T BELIEVED Anne: And have them not believe you. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding ours for support could have helped prepare you. Elinor: Not believe me. Anne: That is a nightmare. Elinor: Yes, and to do that twice and still not be believed. I was grateful at the end of the first court hearing, not joking, six hours. There was a recess for lunch in the middle, it went on so long. The lawyer had told me they averaged 10 to 20 minutes, and I sat through several, and that is how they average six hours. At the end, after the judge dismissed it, and I am just in tears. This lady had to sit through all my court, came up to me, and she was like, I wanna tell you something. I believe you.” That meant the world to me to have her believe me. Because at that point, it’s hard enough to believe myself. It’s hard enough to get up there on the stand and be cross examined, but to have the judge throw it out. The second one was three hours. I knew it would be long. Anne: Was it the same judge? Elinor: Different judge, different state. Anne: What? Elinor: He presents so well. He is so believable, so charismatic, and he knows how to present himself as this wonderful guy. Anne: Also, his abuse of you doesn’t leave marks. I mean, he might, “hold your throat”, but it didn’t leave a bruise. Elinor: ‘Cause he knew when to stop. everything was behind closed doors. There was never a mark, like you said, there was nothing to go to show someone. FLEEING THE HOUSE FOR THE LAST TIME Elinor: I remember my daughter at one point telling me, “Mom, I just wish he would hit you. I don’t want you to be hit.” But she was like, “What can we say that he’s doing? If he hit you, we could say he hit you, but everything else he does is right at the edge.” She was like, “I wanna call the police, but I don’t know what I would say when they got here.” And we all know he would’ve just turned the tables on me entirely. Anne: A hundred percent. Elinor: After the protective order failed, we ended up fleeing the house with a couple of suitcases and our library books. Which I was somehow worried were gonna be overdue. That’s my brain. We lived in hiding and started the whole court process, which is an absolute nightmare. The post separation abuse, the court abuse, it’s like a stress ball. You squeeze it one way, it’s gonna come out somewhere else. His abuse just pops up in all sorts of creative ways, he just doesn’t stop. Learning how do you listen to a podcast helped keep me focused on our safety. The children in two years have not been able to access their clothes, their toys. There’s a court order saying we should be able to go get our stuff. He placed logs across the driveway, so we couldn’t drive up. I hope to be divorced from him someday. I’m glad to hear that you are now 10 years divorced from your abuser. I hope for that for myself and my children too. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL Anne: There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and when people told me that, I was very mad. Because it didn’t feel like that. I was like, my whole life is ruined. I will be in this tunnel the rest of my life. Then post-divorce, when I experienced continued emotional and psychological abuse, due to his “co-parenting”. Take our free emotional abuse test to determine if you are being abused. So I was divorced, and he was still wreaking absolute havoc on my life and my children’s life. It felt like torture. I’d say in my case, and I want to stand up for abuse victims everywhere. ‘Cause you did the right thing. Teach people how do you listen to a podcast to get help. You thought you should do at the time, and it makes total sense. You’re trying to survive. But to outsiders, they’re like, why did she do that? In my case, I did everything right. So for me, I always fought him. Or I was like, no, you’re not doing that to me. I did everything “the right way”. So an outsider wouldn’t be like, “Well, why did you do that?” Because I did everything right. The weird thing is they blame you for it, even if you do it right. So it’s a trap either way, because I got a protective order and kept it and didn’t break it, and the second it was going to expire, I got another one. So I had a six year protective order that he was still able to abuse me via co-parenting messages. When I went to court to try to take custody away. I had 40 pages of documented physical abuse and other abuse. It didn’t make a difference. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU DO EVERYTHING “RIGHT” Anne: So being the person who “did everything right” and still couldn’t get help. That’s why I’m like, I have to stand up for abuse victims all over. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything “right”. The victims who are not doing it the way other people think they should. That’s not why they’re being abused. It’s still not their fault. It has nothing to do with them. So the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop really came out of my absolute frustration that somebody like me could do everything right and still be forced to be abused by the court system. The system was supposed to protect me. ‘Cause at some point I was like, God is the only way out of this. As a Christian, I was like, Christ is the deliverer. As I studied deliverance and the scriptures, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies came out of that. And for women who aren’t women of faith, these are secular strategies that work no matter what, and people don’t have to pray for them to work. They work great, period. ‘Cause a lot of women have been really spiritually abused, and they don’t wanna pray. And I don’t blame them. So I’m like, these work no matter what. You can learn how do you listen to a podcast and get help. That’s where the strategies came from, and they delivered me completely. He signed the kids away. In some cases, they don’t actually physically sign the rights to the kids away. He did out of court, but some of ’em just start leaving you alone. I don’t ever recommend that women take men like this to court if they’re not in court already. You’ll see when you take it. Elinor: Glad to hear that. HE CONTINUES TO DRAG THIS OUT Anne: ‘Cause court usually works in their favor. Even if you win after five years and spend $250,000. That’s not a win. You were just abused for two more years, and you’re in debt, like you just bought a house that’s not a house. Elinor: The lawyer bought a house. Anne: Exactly. Elinor: I participate in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, because I definitely need extra tips. Like right now in this legal side of it, I am drowning. Last year, I felt so hopeful, just finally being away. The gratitude and freedom like not missing him was so awesome. And this year, I thought we’d be divorced by now. I thought I would be free in more ways. And, oh no, that’s not his plan. He will continue to drag this out. So I am really glad to hear about more tips. I need them. Anne: Would you mind coming back? And let me know how it’s going. Elinor: I would love to. Anne: For women who are maybe listening, like you did in your car, if someone’s listening and maybe they’re in the same boat you were, where their body is screaming out, don’t leave. That seems really unsafe. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: I KEPT PRAYING FOR CLARITY Anne: Do you have any words to share with them? Elinor: I appreciated the things you shared when I knew how do you listen to a podcast and listened to yours about asking yourself, are you safe? And getting yourself to a safe place before you make that decision about them. That helped me. I started asking myself, am I safe? Am I in a place where I can feel peaceful enough to get an answer? It was so crazy in my home. I kept praying for clarity, but you can’t get clarity in that kind of situation. I just kept praying and praying, and it just didn’t come. When I finally did leave, that’s when the clarity came. I look back now and I’m like, I just wanna give myself a huge hug and be like, girl, it is okay. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you did the best you could with what you had then. And you wanted to keep your kids’ lives together and keep them safe. One of the things that I read somewhere that really helped me make the decision to go though, was that children witnessing domestic violence is child abuse. That was really powerful for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, my poor children. There was so much behind closed doors, but they could feel it. The things that I hear from them now about what they felt and what they saw and heard that I didn’t think they had experienced, oh, my heart for these little ones. IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO Elinor: I wish I could just give all the people experiencing the kinds of things that I’ve experienced and many other women have experienced. I wanna give them a huge hug and say, it’s going to be all right. And ask them to be kind to themselves. Because we’re second guessing, we’re living in such fear. It’s hard to know what to do. I’m just looking back on myself and giving myself a lot of grace and saying, “You did great. You left, good job.” Anne: Yeah, and I think it helps women to hear somebody like me say, I did everything right and still couldn’t get out. If you know how do you listen to a podcast, you can hear other’s stories. Elinor: Oh my gosh, yes. Anne: Because then it’s like, oh, it wouldn’t have mattered how I acted. He was going to abuse me, and the way the system is, the way everything is getting to safety, is very difficult and miraculous. So there’s nothing that any of us could have done better under the circumstances. At the same time, there are some principles that had we known them. But nobody tells us. So it’s still not our fault. We didn’t learn about it in high school. We didn’t learn about it in college. There is no therapist out there. That has the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies. I’ve never heard anybody say it. It’s not anything like I’ve ever heard. ‘Cause all anybody else has is don’t talk to him at all, and you’re forced to talk to him. So that’s not helpful. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST LED ME TO THE LIGHT Anne: And, communicate better. Elinor: Oh yeah, the communicate better is such a bunch of garbage. When you’re dealing with this kind of person who’s going to use all communications against you. Anne: Yeah, so either way it’s a disaster. Well, I’m proud of you. You are brave and strong. And you’re incredible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you, even if it feels like there’s not. I always have to say that. ‘Cause every time somebody said that to me, I was so mad at them that I was really frustrated and wanted to tell them they didn’t know what they were talking about. If you’re feeling like that, I totally get it. And in that case, I’ll just sit here in the dark with you. It’s okay. People may recommend listening to a podcast, and you may not know how do you listen to a podcast, but taking that first step could be the one thing that helps the most. Elinor: Thank you so much. Anne: Until the light comes to you. Elinor: Thank you, Anne: Thank you so much. Elinor: Thanks for having me.

By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity, hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened. Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. 5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY 1. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Often Starts WITH THE WRONG QUESTION Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth. The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety. 2. Manipulation OFTEN ContinueS Inside Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue. If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy. 3. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Miss the Real Problem: Emotional Abuse Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation. The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. 4. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Teach a Manipulator How to Sound Empathetic In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. 5. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Prolong Manipulation The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. Get Professional Support: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne:  Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. 5 RISKS OF Therapeutic DisclosureS IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Here’s the quick overview: Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. The RISKS Of TherapEUTIC Disclosures IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. Waiting For A Therapeutic Disclosure Can Keep Women In Unsafe Situations Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. QUESTIONS ABOUT Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. Therapists’ Assumptions & Misconceptions ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing training about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries. And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse, or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. Safety Concerns ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity. HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a re-balancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a re-balancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure. ISSUES WITH GROOMING DURING THE THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE PROCESS Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? A therapeutic disclosure is not necessarily marriage therapy for infidelity, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy? That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.” There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe. If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before. Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on how to use it to groom his wife. She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation. WHY OBSERVING Genuine Change FROM A PLACE OF SAFETY MATTERS Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference in marriage therapy for infidelity between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member. She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. The Transactional Nature Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes. I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming. All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting. But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tips FOR BETRAYED WIVES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money. I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know. IssueS With Polygraphs Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices. Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process in marriage therapy for infidelity are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice. She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know. Relying On Personal Observations INSTEAD OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his emotional abuse by trying to get something from him. Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a marriage therapy for infidelity couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know. I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God. And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.” I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. Therapist’s Views On Polygraphs Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data. She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.” So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.” So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery after marriage therapy for infidelity and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her. The Chaos Incomplete Disclosures CREATE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.” Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. No disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures. What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. FINAL THOUGHTS ON MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing. She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me. All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family. So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you. Educating Yourself About Abuse Anne: Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what. So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. Getting The Right Support Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand emotional abuse and betrayal trauma. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse dynamics, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Do you feel anxious, confused, or unsafe in your marriage, but you can’t quite explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity when your husband’s words sound loving, but his actions leave you feeling betrayed. Before we get to the list, to see if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test. 7 EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES In this article you’ll see the following emotional safety examples: 7 Practical examples of emotional safety issues. Identifying his behaviors that threaten your emotionally safety. Realizing that your reactions to his emotional abuse are “normal.” What getting the right information means for your emotional safety. Honoring your needs and boundaries is essential as you decide next steps. 1. IF HIS ACTIONS DON’T MATCH HIS WORDS, TRUST WHAT YOU SEE How it Sounds: “I love you and I’d never do anything to hurt you or our family.” His promises could sound comforting, but his patterns are evidence that shows who he really is. If you find yourself assessing his mood or, rehearsing conversations afterwards to figure out what went wrong. Or realize the same issues never get resolved no matter how carefully you explain them, start trusting what you can see and feel. Emotional safety begins with trusting your instincts. 2. IF HE USES MONEY OR OTHER RESOURCES TO CONTROL YOU, UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS How it Sounds: “I’m just trying to take care of you. You don’t need to worry about the money.” It may feel caring or protective for your husband to take care of the finances, but if he is secretive about his purchases, monitors every purchase you make, withholds money, interferes with your ability to work, or makes you feel dependent on him for basic needs, that is not protection. It is control. Emotional safety examples, means you have access to money, transportation, information, food, medical care, and communication without having to beg, panic, or wait for him to decide whether you deserve them. 3. IF HE USES STRESS, SADNESS, OR HELPLESSNESS TO EXPLOIT YOU, PROTECT YOUR ENERGY How it Sounds: “I’m so overwhelmed lately. I need your help, so I can focus on recovery.” If your husband tries to pressure you into feeling responsible for his recovery by using stress at work or his overwhelming shame as an excuse to get you to schedule his appointments or keep track of his progress, it’s important that you protect your energy. Emotional safety means he considers you as a person with needs and a life of your own, not just someone who’s there to “help him” manage his. 4. IF HE TWISTS THE TRUTH AND BLAMES YOUR “POOR” COMMUNICATION, BE STRATEGIC: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES How it Sounds: “You never told me you had a problem with my behavior.” One of the ways a manipulative husband keeps his wife from discovering the whole truth about his addictions or affairs, is to keep her stuck in a cycle of confusion over communication. You might have already spent years crying and trying to explain how his choices are hurting you, only to have him say that he “didn’t understand because you didn’t explain it clearly” or because “he didn’t like being accused.” Emotional safety examples are not established by trying to perfectly explain why something hurts you. It’s recognizing that someone who benefits from deception has a strong incentive to pretend he never understood your concerns in the first place. 5. IF HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS BETRAYALS, REMEMBER BLAME IS A DEFLECTION How it Sounds: “I wouldn’t have done this if you were more affectionate, less critical, or easier to live with.” If your husband blames you for his use of inappropriate material, cheating, emotional affairs, lies, or other betrayals, he is shifting responsibility for choices that were always his to make. Emotional safety examples begin with releasing yourself from any responsibility for the choices he has made. 6. IF HE SUGGESTS COUPLE THERAPY, SEEK EMOTIONAL SAFETY FIRST How it Sounds: “Let’s go to couples therapy so we can both work on our issues.” If your husband lies or withholds information that directly affects your reality, safety, health, finances, sexuality, or ability to make informed decisions, he uses coercive control. This is not a marriage issue. Traditional couples therapy is not designed to address ongoing deception and manipulation, especially when one person benefits from keeping the other and the therapist confused. Determining what you need for emotional safety, comes before focusing on repairing the relationship. 7. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: IF HE LIES ABOUT YOU TO OTHERS, PROTECT YOUR PEACE How it Sounds: “She’s unstable. She’s angry. She needs help. I’m really worried about her.” If your husband feels he is losing control, he may try to control the narrative. He might tell your “friends” that he’s worried about your mental health or tell your pastor that you’re bitter and unforgiving, or the counselor that you’re an angry person. He may even plant seeds of doubt about your character with your children, and try to pin the “marriage issues” on your reactions to his manipulations. It’s normal to feel like you have to defend yourself, but you do not owe unsafe people any explanation. Emotional safety examples include choosing grounded support, protecting your peace, and letting your consistent actions speak over time. Talk to women who can support you and validate you. We’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Okay, here’s my interview with Roxanna. I have a woman I actually knew in person from years ago when I went to 12-Step. She wrote a book called, Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction, the Journey of a Spouse. I’m honored to catch up, Roxanna. Let’s just start wherever you would like to start. Roxanna: Thank you Anne. I am excited to be here. When I met my husband and started building a family when we married, there were certain behaviors that he had that I thought were normal and that I needed to work around. I was in a 12-Step meeting one day when I suddenly remembered something from my childhood. My sister and I came home from school animated and excited. But when we hit the back door, we lowered our voices, and we immediately began assessing our situation. Was Dad home? Had he gone to the bar? Had he gone to his second job? Was Mom upstairs crying? Because our emotional safety examples revolved around an accurate assessment of his mood. And I realized I was doing the same thing. That I was to a place in the relationship where when I was around him, I assessed and responded to keep myself safe. Anne: Did you know that you were experiencing abuse? Roxanna: At that point, no, because it wasn’t until 24 years into the marriage and I refer to it as the bomb because it exploded my existence. It totally fractured everything that I had built my life around. THE TRUTH THAT EXPLODED MY EXISTENCE Roxanna: Now he came forward with a very sterile confession, but it was incomplete. About a week later, the spirit said, check his wallet. And I found motel receipts. I had a very flexible job, and the next morning, I checked our bank records. What I found sickened me: phone stuff, prostitution, strip clubs, inappropriate viewing. I mean, it was a bomb. Because of his vast flips in personality, I went from thinking he was bipolar to wondering who he was. Because it was clear to me that so much of my reality wasn’t as I knew it to be. And I asked him to meet me at a park, and I said, I don’t know what you’re doing or who you are, but if you don’t get help, I’m going to file for divorce today. He checked himself into a rehab center. And I got really sick, and I mean like eight months of illness, 12 times of being hospitalized, and he couldn’t continue the facade. Anne: Also, he can’t get you to do what he wants at this point, because you’re too sick to do it. You’re too sick to be exploited in the way he was exploiting you before. You’re too sick to be manipulated. I’m so, so sorry. Because that’s when you need the person to be there for you. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: They think that you’re created for them, but they don’t like giving back. Roxanna: Right, they objectify everyone around them. Anne: So the rehab center he checked into was for drugs and alcohol. Roxanna: Yes, but at the end the counselor said, “I think your husband is an addict.” And I countered with, ” What in the world is that?” I LEARNED TO MEET MY OWN NEEDS Anne: And no one identified any emotional, psychological, financial or spiritual abuse, at that time, not the therapist or anything? No one said anything about abuse? There were no emotional safety examples for me to follow. Roxanna: That therapist blamed me. And I looked at it as a two-way street. I was 46 when this happened, and gradually, I gave space, I gave Jack first a year. I didn’t do that verbally, but I did that in my heart and mind. Part of my learning process was to learn to hold boundaries with someone I didn’t think I could hold boundaries with. As I held boundaries and learned to meet my own needs. I learned to make decisions based on what I saw and what my truth was, not what he was telling me. It freed him to decide what he wanted. Anne: Well, he was always free to do what he wanted the whole time. Roxanna: But some of those boundaries allowed me to step out of the position of being blamed. Anne: He never had to blame you. Roxanna: Right, but he did. Anne: Yeah, the language “allowed him”, I’m like no. He was always free to choose. Roxanna: I look at myself and think I made a million mistakes, but were they mistakes? Probably not. One of the experiences I learned from a Saturday. I wanted it to be a wonderful day, and Jack just kept sulking on the couch. I remember coming over and visiting with him and saying, “What’s up?” and I can’t remember the words he used. But essentially, I’m mad because you are supposed to make me happy, and I’m not happy. and I just kept trying to make life pleasant. I would twist myself and my schedule into a pretzel. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR FAMILIES Anne: It’s a total normal reaction. We all value our dignity. We’re all going to stand up for ourselves. We’re all going to try and improve the situation. Women are incredible. They’re smart, they’re capable. And when something’s not quite right, of course we wanna fix it, anybody would. Healthy people want to help the people they love, they wanna care. Women who have never been abused act the same way. They’re like, “Are you okay? What’s wrong? How can I help you?” Because they’re a good person. It’s just that manipulators use that against you, regardless of your background. And that’s the hard part for women to wrap their heads around, is that they’ve never done anything wrong. I’ve done over 200 long form interviews that are like an hour or longer, and they’re all different. Women come from really healthy backgrounds, women come from unhealthy ones, and we’re all completely different. But we all wanna help out. We all wanna protect our families. Of course, none of us are perfect. We’re just trying to navigate someone who’s lying to us and manipulating us. They’re actually doing the right things. He’s just using all the right things against them. Roxanna: That is so true, Anne. I love your stance on it. We are amazing. You’re responding reasonably to an unreasonable situation. You’re learning to be true to yourself. You don’t have to believe what other people tell you. Somewhere in your gut and somewhere with God, you can figure out in those moments, “That’s not my job.” I could leave. I tried marriage again AND HE LIED TO ME, TOO Roxanna: Jack had a lot of medical issues. One night we were in the ER, it was very late, he was overtly flirting, and it was horrible. And I left. That was the good part. But then the old messages started playing in my head. A good wife wouldn’t leave her husband in the ER, wouldn’t do this. A good wife wouldn’t do that. Instead of trying to fight those untrue messages, I went back. At this point, I didn’t have emotional safety examples to help me understand what was happening. That was a very unpleasant night. That took me months to be able to talk about. But I learned from it. I learned that I could never reenter the room or the situation that was hurtful. That learning resulted in a later episode in an ICU room, and I left. After Jack passed away, I tried marriage again, and despite all that I had learned, his facade fooled me. Anne: Yeah, he lied to you on purpose. He didn’t fool you, he lied. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: How did you feel when you met him? I wanna bring this up, because you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re very healthy at this point. You’ve really focused on making sure that you’re making good choices, which you’ve been doing all along. I recently did an episode about how Jesus was betrayed. He was perfect. And Judas still lied. In that episode, I talk about how Judas betrayed him long before the last supper. When he is like, whoever takes the bread will betray him because Judas had gone out and arranged it prior to this. I HAD THE RIGHT TO JUDGE HIS BEHAVIOR Anne: So you could have been absolutely perfect, and he would’ve lied to you, and still you wouldn’t have known. So that’s why I’m like, tell me about what you’re feeling in real time. Like you meet him, and he seems probably really great, because I’m guessing you don’t wanna go through what you’ve just been through. Roxanna: Well, the interesting part is I knew that he had struggled with alcohol. But he told me he was clean. Because of my background, we talked extensively about what he wanted in his life. What I learned is that I had the right to judge people on what they had done. Anne: Right. Roxanna: Not what they said. Anne: Well, how old is this guy? Roxanna: He was 56. Anne: So if he wanted what he said he wanted, he would be that person already. Roxanna: I learned that. Anne: So he is just lying. My ex, I talked to him extensively about exploitative materials use. ‘Cause I did not wanna marry a user. He told me to my face, “I don’t use it.” And he still did. We choose our character one choice at a time. So at 56 with this guy. If he wanted the things he was lying to you about, he would’ve been that person. But he wasn’t that person. But he knew you wanted that. You didn’t have emotional safety examples. LYING IS CONTROL: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Roxanna: Absolutely, a healthy marriage cannot be built by one person. It takes the foundation of honesty. Marriage therapy often does not work, because a lot of times therapists don’t even see the lie. Anne: Right, or they don’t view lies as domestic abuse. And couple therapy or any type of couple work is never, ever ethically indicated if there’s abuse. So if they’re like, “Oh yeah, we’ll help him with his lying.” I’m like, well, that is abuse. So that should never happen. But they don’t view it as emotional manipulation and psychological abuse a lot of the time, which I disagree with. The definitions from mainstream domestic abuse educators would include lying as domestic abuse. So they just haven’t been trained in abuse. There’s this huge problem with this gap between what the behaviors actually are and how they’re literally defined, how they’re viewing them, which is a problem that I’m always combating. Roxanna: Yes, I bet you are, because in my mind, lying comes from not seeing the other person as a real person with wants and needs of their own. Anne: Well, and at the heart of abuse, because lying is control. You’re controlling that person through withholding certain information from them that they have a right to know. So it’s a serious coercive control issue. It’s not like I was ashamed or something. It doesn’t matter if you were ashamed or not. It meets the legal definition of coercive control. I WANTED HUMAN CONNECTION, NOT A “TRANSACTIONSHIP” Roxanna: Right, and marriages cannot last in a healthy way with deceit. And that’s one thing that this process of growth learning emotional safety examples has helped me identify, is what I want. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: I wanted human connection. And when you are lying or when you see the other person as just a means to your end, there is no human connection. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said the man in the arena who comes out and he’s bloody from trying, he doesn’t have any armor on. He doesn’t have any deceit in him. He comes out and wants to try honestly. And what is required, and what these men typically do not understand. Is that we’re asking for the human connection. We ask others to see us as another human being, and they want to treat us as something that meets their needs. Anne: Yeah, that’s essentially the definition of abuse, is that you view the other person as someone who you exploit for your own gain. But they’re not an equal to you. I remember something you said way, way back in the day. This was when you were still married to Jack. You said to him, I’m someone who buys the groceries, takes care of the kids, and gives him it, but that’s about it. I’m not a person to him. And that stuck with me. ‘Cause many views I have now evolved, obviously over the years, because I’ve talked to so many women and become so educated about abuse and the long term affects. I didn’t have the two things put together. I thought I knew about abuse, but I really didn’t understand it back then. And that is the heart of it. WHAT HIS PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR MEAN Anne: Whether he has an addiction and what he’s doing about that, it’s always abuse to us as the victim of that. With the most recent husband, how did you find out? The difference between what he said and what he did is that what you started to observe? Or did you have a D-Day with the new husband? Roxanna: That’s a really good question. They were in little snippets. So about a month after we married, the behaviors began. The objectifying, the using, the shutting me out and off started almost immediately. We took a vacation with my family. In very separateness from associating with my family, he started penalizing me for asking questions. And that’s when I knew I was in real trouble. The drinking and substance abuse started later. So, from there. I went back to getting support. He remained angry. He was always defensive. So I filed for divorce, it was a heartbreak. They always are. You’re always losing hopes and dreams, and you have to grieve it. At the same time, it had begun to affect my health. And I knew it would destroy me if I didn’t keep myself in a safe place. Anne: Yeah, here at BTR, everything’s founded on the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And it’s the same thing you’re talking about. If she wants safety, and help with emotional safety examples, She’s going to need to learn some skills. But there’s nothing wrong with her character. THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU, YOU JUST DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION Anne: If you put our program next to 12-Step. There are no character defects. You’ve always been trying to get help. You’ve always been trying to do the right thing. But you just didn’t have the right information. You didn’t realize what you were dealing with. Once you realize what’s happening, he’s lied to you and he’s manipulative. You can create some space, either just in your mind or physical space, whatever kind of space you need to observe. And that’s what you’ve been talking about. Just observe, see if their actions match their words. As you observe, some of them might start making good choices, observing whether that’s grooming, like what you experienced with your second marriage. ‘Cause he was grooming you and lying to you from the beginning. So it wasn’t like he switched, he was the same person. He just switched tactics. He went from grooming to being mean to you. You know, I’m being angry. They’re both two sides of the control coin of trying to manipulate you to do what he wanted. Then over time, if he escalates, you can increase your boundaries. You learn by seeing practical emotional safety examples. Or you can pull back on your boundaries a little bit and be like, okay, he’s safe. So that process of trying to figure out am I safe? Am I not safe? This feels safe. He feels safe, but then realizing, oh, that’s what he does when he grooms me. Okay, nevermind. That wasn’t actual safety, because there’s no way to circumvent the process of figuring them out, because there’s no human way on the face of the earth to be like a lie detector. Roxanna: Right. RELEARNING WHAT TO DO Anne: So the only way to determine whether they’re telling the truth is to observe over time. There’s no way to shortcut that. Roxanna: A lot of my journey is because I lived in some sort of dysfunctional relationship for the better part of 46 years, before I started recognizing what I had lived in. And so I wasn’t ever the problem. You say that so beautifully, and that’s so freeing. I was doing the dance of what did I do wrong, because that was what I was taught. Through years and years of this. A counselor stopped me and said, “You could be the biggest bitch in the world, and Jack would still be responsible for keeping his vows.” That was a turning point for me. The process that you do in your groups. I learned in various groups and situations. That living in these dysfunctional ways and relationships, I had acquired coping skills that were no longer serving me. They weren’t helping me be peaceful and happy in my own life. So my journey is about relearning what I got to do in my life. In fact, I have a chapter in the book called The Things That Get to Change, and I see that as a happy process. Because no matter what they’re doing over there in their life. You get to bring positive behaviors and positive responses into your life, and you get to start showing how you wanna be and how you are. The beautiful person you are, you get to start showing up like that. I had become almost a little mouse. I was afraid of asserting too much or being strong or meeting my own needs. Anne: Yeah. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: BECOMING STRONG AND BRAVE Roxanna: I learned to meet my own needs. To say my truth and not cower when someone else responded with what I knew was a lie. I didn’t have to convince them that their’s was a lie. Anne: Yeah, I love that. I liken it to a plane crash. Think about the movie Castaway, when he’s first on the island and struggling, and then it fast forwards and he is standing on that rock super strong, and he can catch the fish and do all the stuff. You’re not the pilot, you’re just on the plane. You didn’t do anything wrong. Then you wanna survive. You’re gonna try and make a fire a bunch of times and fail. But none of that is you doing anything wrong. Then you’re gonna learn these amazing skills. Women who learn how to protect themselves and realize that that’s the journey they were always on, right? They were always doing the right thing, even if they couldn’t catch the fish in the beginning. Then there’s this montage of, and now Roxanna is here and she is strong, she’s brave, and she’s always been strong and brave because she faced all these things head on, and this is who she is now. Who is this even stronger braver woman who came out of it? So it’s really cool. I love that part of it, that women share over and over again, that the process of realizing someone was harming them and learning how to protect themselves. Instead of saying, would a good wife do this? Asking what would a brave woman do? Roxanna: Right. I learned to ask myself, what’s the next right decision? EMOTONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: SEEING THE TRUTH Roxanna: And that’s something that I use to this day with relationships with my children, with my grandchildren. You are absolutely right. This process enriches our lives. I tell people that I believe God is making an army of strong women who know what the truth is. Who know how to live happy lives, and who can teach our children what the truth is. And to protect a child from inappropriate media. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: Our culture desperately needs that. It really is. Anne: Yeah, I feel the same way. See the truth, and then protect themselves and others from the lies through their actions. Communication is never the solution to domestic abuse. When someone’s lying, communication isn’t the solution, because that’s how they lie. Knowing how to navigate a situation where words, to the person who’s hurting you, mean nothing. And knowing how to figure out what’s going on. It’s hard for everybody. Roxanna: It is, and I think that’s what I learned in this last marriage. We have to make judgments, keep ourselves safe. And judgments are not the same necessarily as condemning. But I get to make judgments based on what a person has done. Anne: Yes Roxanna: Not on what they say they’re going to do. It’s freeing to learn. Anne: You are so incredible. The process of writing, ‘because I’ve been writing my own book, it’s not just an end result, like writing in and of itself is the process of learning. That’s so exciting that you took the time to do that. ‘Cause that is a huge accomplishment. So way to go. BUYING A MOTORCYCLE Roxanna: It was a labor of love. Jack is deceased and I wanted to say this has happened to me and I’ve grown from it and I understand it. And I have overcome the terrible lies it said to me about myself. Anne: From knowing you in person way back in the day, I appreciated you so much. What you were going through was very heavy, but there was this super fun, awesome person who was trying to claw her way out of the darkness. You knew that life didn’t have to be this miserable, and you wanted to create that life that you wanted, and that was really impactful to me at the time. And I thank you. Roxanna: During that process is when I, bought my motorcycle, Anne. And I would suggest a passionate hobby like that to any woman going through this. I still love to ride. I wanna say I felt the same about you. There was a connection, and it is so fun to reconnect after all these years and look at all you’ve done. Anne: That’s the crazy part. When you knew me, and maybe for our listeners who have listened, if you wouldn’t mind sharing. You knew me before I was podcasting, when I was in 12-Step and in absolute shock about what had happened. Roxanna: What I remember is that I was drawn to you because your personality and your demeanor were still dynamic. You were full of life, but you had so many questions and concerns about what you were learning, the road ahead of you, and what you could feel as deceit in your own situation. What I see now is that you remain true to acknowledging what you felt and moved forward. ON A JOURNEY TO BUILD WHAT I NEEDED Roxanna: You got those questions answered. And to me, that is the impetus of change and recovery. Because I remember looking at a young woman one time that came through the doors, and she was like, “I’m fine.” And six months later, she said, “I’m angry”. I remember saying to her. Good, now we can get somewhere. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: And so I just look at you as you came into those meetings, aware that you were on a journey. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: And you were searching. That is a beautiful place to start. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: What is a really tough journey. Anne: We do things in a specific way here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because of what I went through and all the obstacles I faced along the way. And all the stuff that people said did not sit right with me over the years. So I built BTR, the ideal thing I needed. This is what it would’ve been. But I wanna say it doesn’t matter what someone uses, I mean uses. I’m using that word specifically on purpose. Whatever a woman uses to realize how amazing she is. That she’s always been trying to do the right thing. That she’s always been working hard and capable, and that there’s nothing inherently wrong with her. She’s just fine. If the thing she’s doing is getting her where she wants to go, then great. WE BECOME A DIFFERENT PERSON: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Because different things speak to different people, and it’s important to acknowledge there’s been some of the best books that I’ve read that I now look back and think. I don’t agree with that, but it was super helpful for me in the moment. Roxanna: At that point. Anne: And it helped me along my journey. Roxanna: Right, because we become a different person almost incrementally. I love that you’re saying this, because you’re basically giving you the milestones of my path, so you can pull apart the pieces that might help you on yours. Anne: Yeah, and many women who come here are like, wow, this is what I needed. Because I’m so careful about, we’re not gonna say this thing that was said or this thing. But at the same time, they make it here, and they’ve all used different things along the way. Or when they come here, maybe it doesn’t work for them, and maybe something else is gonna work. Maybe hearing emotional safety examples from others. So whatever works. Because like you said, all I care about is that we become collectively an army of really healthy women. Who can through our boundaries in marriage and our actions, literally stop abuse. Not that the abusers are stopping. They could be doing it all they want, but it cannot reach us because we are so strong and so united. Roxanna: And we have detached ourselves from places that they can hurt us. SEPARATING FROM PLACES THEY CAN HURT US Anne: Exactly, we’ve created space, mentally, physically, whatever it is. Where they are trying to hurt us, but they cannot. Healthy people, living healthy lives. Roxanna: Yeah, that’s beautiful because we’ve all got to learn to separate ourselves from that. Anne: Well, Roxanna, thank you so much for coming on to share your story. It’s so great catching up with you again. Roxanna: Anne, thank you so much for this opportunity. It was beautiful to reconnect, what a privilege.

We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce. To learn if your ex-husband is continuing to abuse you after your separation or divorce, take my free emotional abuse test. What Is Post Separation Abuse? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection. 1. USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO STAY IN CONTROL Post-separation abuse often is enabled by the court system that court orders women to co-parent with men who are manipulative and undermining them, lying to them. It causes so much chaos. He might be threatening to take you to court or using court orders that are meant to help you co-parent, to make things harder. 2. MAINTAINING FINANCIAL CONTROL Many men withhold things like child support or alimony so that you have to contact him to get it. That is actually a form of post-separation abuse, and they do it on purpose to make sure that they’re still relevant, that they can control what you’re doing so you have to be put through the wringer of contacting them every single time. 3. Manipulating Your Children’s Lives Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety. Get The Right Support while you are experiencing Post-separation abuse At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers: Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches. Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family. Accessible & Affordable: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment. Immediate Help: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today. Take Action to Protect Yourself During Post-separation Abuse You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey. If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce. With Post Separation Abuse, Boundaries Are Key Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not: Ultimatums Consequences for bad behavior Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse. What Are Some Boundaries That Can Help Me Navigate Post Separation Abuse? Remember that boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s post separation abuse tactics. Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include: Using a parenting communication app, like Our Family Wizard, as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney). Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children A Strong Support System Is Essential When Navigating Post Separation Abuse Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network. Post separation abuse victims can find support from: Safe family members The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Trauma-informed specialists, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches Transcript: The Truth About Post Separation Abuse Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie Marcie: Hi. Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story? Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help. And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women. Early Relationship Dynamics Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am. Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey … Marcie: Yeah. Anne: … this will help you be a better person. Marcie: Yes. Anne: And since then, I am the devil. Marcie: Of course. Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course. Marcie: Yes. Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning. Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things. Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations. And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us. Appeasing Him Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way. Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself. Marcie: Absolutely. Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop. Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be. I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better. Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you? Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy. Understanding Post Separation Abuse Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did. It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations. And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either. There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home. Therapy & Depression Marcie: And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything. Anne: He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something? They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything. Marcie: I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test. The “No” Test, Manipulation & Control Marcie: It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult. Anne: He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making. Marcie: Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do. Anne: It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better. She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation. What Is Post Separation Abuse: Recording Conversations To Maintain clarity Marcie: Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said. “No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations. I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it. I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome. Journaling & Trauma Response Anne: When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it? And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful. Marcie: I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide. And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them. I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function. Living In Between Horrible Things Marcie: She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do. Anne: Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine. In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between. Marcie: That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way. Confronting the reality of Abuse Marcie: And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all. I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good. But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience. Anne: Or he’s just lying in that moment. Marcie: Or lying. Anne: To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you. Marcie: Yes. Lies & Recording Conversations Anne: They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much. Marcie: Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children. It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court. Anne: Did he know that you were allowed to do this? Marcie: Yes. Anne: Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded? Marcie: He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling. Differences Between Counties Dealing With Custody Marcie: So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear. Anne: You’re recording his phone calls with your kids. This is one way to combat his abuse when fighting a narcissist for custody. Marcie: Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls. But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children. There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result. Post Separation Abuse INcludes legal maniplulation Marcie: I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court. Anne: His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place? Marcie: It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money. Anne: Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you. Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane. Financial Manipulation Anne: I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working? Marcie: No. Anne: So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff? Marcie: He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain. Anne: To place him in the victim role. Marcie: Yes. Anne: Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you? Marcie: No. Anne: Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket. Marcie: He did. Anne: Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him. Marcie: Yeah. Anne: You’re not good for anything now. Marcie: I am useless. Anne: Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless. Marcie: Yes. Anne: To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings? Smear Campaign Marcie: Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager. I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right. His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me. They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore. What Is Post Separation Abuse: False Memories & Manipulation Marcie: Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving, Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it. My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule. Anne: It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Marcie: And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home? Impact On Children Marcie: It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way. But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children. Anne: And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate. Marcie: It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things. Anne: Does he have a job now? Marcie: No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them. Processing The Abuse Marcie: That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful. Anne: It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it. Marcie: When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective. Anne: Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying. Marcie: Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense? Anne: Um hmm, totally. Marcie: And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating. What Is Post Separation Abuse: We can help you understand Anne: That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me. Marcie: Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much. Anne: With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie. Marcie: Thank you so much. FROM CONFUSION TO CLARITY: ANOTHER WOMAN’S STORY OF POST SEPARATION ABUSE Anne: I’m so excited to have another member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Mykell. She’s a single mother of three and believes women can discover a life of peace, power and purpose post separation. Even if they’re experiencing post separation abuse. Welcome Mykell. Mykell: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to talk to you. Anne: Your story is similar to so many of our stories where you didn’t know that you were being abused. And you figured it out. Can you tell us your story? Mykell: For me, the story is a slow unfolding one. I met my ex-husband when I was in high school. Anybody who knew us could say that our relationship had been rocky from the start. Me, being 17 years old and not knowing much about myself or relationship dynamics. I just thought, all relationships are hard, and I’m not perfect either. And gradually over the years and decades, as things unfolded. It became clear that there was a spiritual separation in our relationship. As he continued to make various choices. It got rockier, and the thing that’s confusing in these situations is I’m not a shrinking violet. So when someone consistently attacks you, sometimes you will stand up for yourself, you’ll fight back. So that’s what kept things confusing for me for a long time. Going round and around and around was this thought that I’m participating in how this relationship is shaping up. As time went on, I started to say, I don’t want to respond this way anymore. I don’t want to live my life like this anymore. Seeking Help Mykell: And I started seeking counseling on my own, and in the midst of that, the relationship actually got worse. So in choosing to disengage and better ways of handling my own emotions in the situation. It made it clear that we were on two separate paths. As life continued to go on, there were some choices he made that eventually were deal breakers and broke everything apart. I started getting language for what I was going through, and started getting clarity. It’s been three years since the marriage ended, but now through the community to connect with other women who are going through the same things. I started that healing process. And get help with post separation abuse. Anne: What brought you to understand that what you experienced was abuse? This it wasn’t just that marriage is hard work. Overall, you were realizing, wait a minute, these behaviors I’m seeing in him are unhealthy, the healthier you got. But what actually helped you consider abuse? Recognizing Abuse Patterns Mykell: I went to a counselor about a totally separate issue. It started to unravel as I explained to her, well, this happened, and then he said this and yada, yada. She said to me, you know, this is abuse, right? And I thought to myself, really? I don’t know that I fully grabbed onto what she was saying. But I started reading some books, and I started seeing my story in what these experts were writing about. Mykell: And I thought, how did I ever miss this? We think we’re going to see this thing coming from a mile away, and it’s going to be so obvious that we’re going to know. But so often something feels off, but you probably would not put that word abuse to it. You’d probably say this person has anger issues or this person had trauma in their backstory or … Anne: They have an addiction. Mykell: Yep, it’s something that we end up couching underneath this banner of imperfection that we all have. Not realizing that the power dynamics are intentional, that there’s something bigger at play. https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY I said, I didn’t want to be part of that kind of thing anymore. And so that was how the road started to get to being healthy. It became so clear that we had different intentions about the way that was all going to happen. Anne: Different ways of viewing the relationship. You were viewing it as a partnership, and he’s viewing it as I have power over, essentially. Which continues with post separation abuse. Especially if they’re doing an in-home separation. Mykell: I hesitate to say relationship. The only way this sort of arrangement continues is when there’s a disparity, and one of the parties is seeing this as a means to an end. Post Separation Abuse: Power Dynamics In Relationships Anne: He has some goal is controlling the information. For example, there’s a power differential because they have more information than someone else. Before you ever defined it as abuse, did you define it as a addiction? Mykell: This was something completely. under the radar for me. I was not even aware of all the things going on. Some behaviors and things unbeknownst to me started to come out in the midst of that process. But there was nothing before. That was like a precursor. Anne: So you were like, something is wrong, but you couldn’t put your finger on it. And the abuse came first. And then later you realized, Oh, and he’s also using pornography. That’s important to talk about, because so many people don’t include the this when they talk about abuse. And I always want to bring it into the story to say, and there was an issue here. So people know it is part of this mess of unhealthiness. Mykell: Yeah, and I think the thing we have to recognize with the mess of unhealthiness. There are so many types of abuse when you’re looking at the classification of what’s domestic violence. So often we think that’s only physical. And there’s emotional, there’s sexual, there’s spiritual, financial, so many ways that someone can gain power over another person. And often it’s not even just one or two. It often covers all these categories, and so because it can be very encompassing, it makes it hard to see. Anne: Yeah, if it were just he’s absolutely shutting down the bank account and won’t let you have any money. That might be a little more obvious. Especially with post separation abuse. Challenges of Co-Parenting Anne: But the little ways he’s financially abusive, or if he said God told me I can beat you up. You’d be like, well, that’s clear it’s spiritual abuse. But it’s unclear if it’s spiritual abuse if he’s kneeling down and praying by you and saying, please help my wife be more godly. Help her understand how to be a better wife, when biblical submission becomes abuse. That doesn’t necessarily feel like spiritual abuse. From your experience, what issues do single mothers commonly encounter when raising children with an abuser? Especially counter parenting. Now, when I say raising them with an abuser, meaning you’re divorced from them, but they’re still in your life because they’re your child’s parent. Mykell: Right, one of the difficult things is constantly trying to explain things to your former partner or trying to make decisions with them. As though they can have effective, honest, open communication. So often, it’s just a continued open door for manipulation and control to continue with post separation abuse. It is so essential to understand that it is possible to continue this walk without continually having to hand your life back over to this person. Anne: Even if you’re expertly skilled at dealing with your ex, and you’ve got great boundaries. And you’re detached and you have all the skills going for you. Your ex can still technically abuse you because you’re being lied to, you’re being manipulated. It’s still not your fault if you don’t “communicate perfectly” with your abuser. He’s abusing you. You can do your best to be as highly skilled as possible in communication with an abuser. Living Free Workshop Anne: But it still has nothing to do with you, and it’s not your fault if they still don’t react well to whatever you try. I struggled with post-separation abuse for eight years after divorce. Until I found the strategies that really, really worked, and was able to completely.deliver myself and my kids. I put those strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It saved me, it absolutely saved me. I mentored five different women to ensure that these strategies worked. And those women’s actual real life messages are in that workshop. Mykell: Yep, having specific tactics is great, and also having a certain mindset. So if this person has lied to you, manipulated you, you can expect that’s still happening. Post Separation Abuse: Use Our Family Wizard Mykell: What you do in your communication is limit the opportunities for that to occur. I’m not going to get into the emotions or reason, or I don’t like that you did that. Not having to get too deep into the weeds. When you’re getting stuff hurled at you, absolutely have those safe people you’re like, I can’t believe this happened. They can help you work through the frustration, disappointment and hurt that is necessary. It makes it easy to say, okay, I’m only gonna show what needs to be forward facing to this person. In terms of the logistic side of this. But when it comes to all my emotional stuff, I’ve got safe people, and I know where to get the support I need. Depending on your situation, it may cause things to get a little riled up. For a while, they want to see if they can get a reaction from you. But over time, if you’re consistent and don’t offer reactions, and we’re not trying to be friends. Then it can get to a workable place in many instances. Anne: So for a long time on the podcast, I touted no contact, which I did through my father, and that worked, and I was like, everybody should do this. But then I had a custody case that I lost. In the process, I needed to switch to Our Family Wizard, rather than go through my dad, so that I could communicate directly with him, which I do now. I still have blocked him on my phone, blocked him on email. And I only communicate with him through Our Family Wizard. I never communicate with him in any other way. It needs to be taken seriously for all women dealing with an abusive ex-husband. Manipulated Parenting Anne: Many people have this idea in their heads. One of the manipulative things he told me was, I dream of a day where we can sit on a park bench and watch our kids play and get along. He said that to me to manipulate me into communicating with him. And I’m like, that’s never going to happen. Let’s talk about that idea, the concept of co-parenting when it comes to post separation abuse. Can you co parent with an abuser? Mykell: The word co-parenting suggests you have two people who are parenting together. We have to recognize that in some divorce cases, people can maintain an amicable relationship. In which the children are not being used as power weapons. The relationship dynamic is not this push-pull. These two people are going on with the best interests of the kids. Because if this person is not going to put the kid’s best interest first, and is not going to play by the rules. If you can’t establish any rules without them being manipulated. Then you know that you are parenting on your own, and this person is parenting on their own. Anne: I wouldn’t even call it parenting. It’s like you’re parenting on your own, and this other person is like actively trying to cause problems, which is not what I would call parenting. Mykell: It’s difficult, because we want so much to have influence over what is happening in that household, and we’re just not able to. That is the part that gets really hard, it gets heavy, it’s disconcerting, it’s scary. When you’re in that kind of situation while your kids are with you, that you are present with them. Being Your Kid’s Safe Place Mykell: If you can bring wonderful, healthy people into their lives to do outings with them, and I’m not saying you have to be super mom. I’m not saying you have to throw these elaborate birthday parties. This is about being your kid’s safe place. So if there are unsafe things happening when they’re away from you, and this is something we would want. Whether that unsafe stuff was happening at a parent’s house or in school. They know Mom is safe, that when I bring her my problem, she will listen and comfort me. Maybe offer some support or solutions. Learning how to do that when you yourself are underwater is hard. The investments that you put into yourself as far as your own healing and support groups will pass on to your kids. If you’re like, that sounds overwhelming. That’s a lot of things. Even focusing on getting stable, healthy, and strong yourself, you’ll know what conversations you should bring up. You’ll know when your child says, I don’t like that, the other parents doing X, Y, or Z. They can come to you and offer them real compassion. For every little thing that happens, we worry so much that, this is not going the way I wanted. And this is going to be their doom. God is so much bigger than all the things that we’re going through with post separation abuse. If we look at this from a long range perspective, I want to be that safe place for my kids and do the best I can to be there for them. When they start to feel the friction, and start to feel like something is wrong. They know they have an option, and whether they choose it, that’s also out of our control. Post Separation Abuse: Use Parallel Parenting Mykell: There are so many parts of life in general, and this is one of them, outside our control. We do our best to create a safe and solid place, beginning with our own health. Anne: So the short answer is no. You cannot co-parent with an abuser. Parallel parenting is the way to go. You just worry about what’s going on when you’re the parent and do the best you can. And then the things he’s doing, you could confront him about it, but we all know where that goes. Speaking of parallel parenting with post separation abuse, can you talk about that for a minute? Mykell: This goes back to trying to manage the feelings. Let’s say there’s a divorce decree, and let’s say dad is supposed to take the kids on this night and this night. It’s a fine balance here when they perhaps would say something like, oh, well, I can’t take them that night. I’ll take them this one or, oh, sorry. I had to do this, and I can’t come get them tonight. We want to say, well, this is what the paper says, this is what the agreement is. Sometimes we might get so caught in those very specific rules. Hey no, you should want to take your kids, or you should want to be with them, or you should be coming to their things. We’re re-engaging, and it’s an open door for a discussion or argument. Their choices are their own choices. And so if the child’s not being picked up and hurts their feelings. The fix is not necessarily to say, I need to figure out a way to get him to pick our child up. Managing Expectations Mykell: This is a way for the child to understand his choices. Sometimes it’s hurtful to have to walk our kids through that. We can’t cover up or try to get them to do what they’re supposed to do, or make excuses. In this instance, the sugar coating is more harmful, they’re not able to discern the truth. That’s the biggest thing: always give kids as much age appropriate truth as they can digest. And that’s where learning how to offer support is so important, because it is truth, with love. It’s truth saying. I know this is hurtful, and I’m sorry this is happening. We’re not going to be able to fix it. If we want our kids to understand where that road to healing can come from, if we’re truthful with them all along the way. How we empower our kids by giving them truth, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug, fix it, or cover it up. Anne: Or manage an abuser’s relationship with his children. Mykell: Yeah, I love that word “management.” It’s such a perfect word. You can’t go in there and manage everything with post separation abuse. Sometimes the best thing you can do is simply allow that thing to play itself out. And as much as we would not want to see our kids hurt, as much as we would not want them to suffer anymore. It is a greater disservice if you are whitewashing the whole thing. Making it look like it’s not, because then eventually the truth does come out. And then they will be frustrated with you for not being truthful with them. It can cause them to feel alienated. It can cause them to feel that you’re not safe. Empowering Children Mykell: That’s the biggest thing that we can offer our kids in these situations with post separation abuse, is that safe place. Anne: Yeah, that drives me crazy when someone does something clearly not a good thing that a parent would do. And a neighbor or some “helpful” bystander will say, well, of course he loves you. He’s just busy. Or of course he cares about you. He just, and I’m like, no, no, no you’re not his top priority, not that I would necessarily say that, but let that play out. And never tell your kid, of course, he loves you when you’re like, he’s incapable of loving anyone. Mykell: And the thing that ends up happening if you do that is you’re essentially gaslighting your kid. You’re causing them to question their own reality when you call it something else. Anne: Because they don’t feel loved, for good reason, because their dad is selfish or incapable of loving them. So in that way, what are your thoughts about raising a child in ways that prevent them from being manipulated or deceived? How can we help our kids recognize the truth with post separation abuse? Mykell: This is something built up over time. You’re not going to have a one-time conversation with your child about the things they’re going through. Or, hey, watch out for this, and then that’s it. If you’re having ongoing conversations with them, this can even be manipulation at school with bullies. Recognizing, how did you feel when that person treated you that way? Practicing with them what it is to identify feelings gives them the ability to process, watch and give context. Post Separation Abuse: Equiping Children Mykell: As they get older, they start to look at inconsistencies, recognize them, and try to make sense of them. If they do bring you a concern, that validation of what they see or feel is so good. You can do that in a way that is not making the thing personal, it’s not bashing, it’s simply saying you see a behavior and it makes you feel uncomfortable. That is normal. As they start to have those conversations with you, they can trust you. That instinct, or that move of the Holy Spirit, the inner voice that says, something feels unsafe and uncomfortable here. What often happens, I think, in manipulative dynamics. There is some sort of off moment, some red flag, something that is seen and not acted upon, or it’s explained away. So one of the best things we can do for our kids in post separation abuse situations is equip them. When they see something strange or bad, inconsistent or manipulative. That we can put that right word to it and say, yeah, that is confusing. It makes sense that you’d be confused in that situation. This is where, in parallel parenting, you’re not able to control what happens over at that other house. But you can send your kids into any environment with an understanding of what to do if they feel uncomfortable. That may look different depending on whether they have devices, whether they can drive. But it’s teaching them what are those healthy ways to address these situations. Because very often they’re not going to feel they can stand up and say something, and they may feel even in the moment, like they can’t even go anywhere. Helping Children With Safety Mykell: It’s letting them know. Hey, if you feel something’s funny, write it down. Or if you need to text me or you need a FaceTime or you need to leave the room and go to your bedroom. Whatever it is you devise with your child, to let them know some way to get to safety. If they’re in a dangerous situation, we want to make sure they understand how to get hold of safe adults or support authorities. Anne: Yeah, for good little kids, I liked the book, Say No, and Tell. There’s a girl version and a boy version. It’s generally about sexual abuse, but it gives many examples: this is safe, this is unsafe, this is safe, this is unsafe. Even just using books like that to start conversations about it. My kids now tell me all the time when they feel safe or unsafe, or when they feel uncomfortable. My little six year old is so good at saying, mom, I’m uncomfortable. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I’m grateful. Mykell: That’s so good. Just saying uncomfortable is great. Sometimes they can’t figure out what the feeling is, or even like the word overwhelmed. Like there’s a lot of feelings. I don’t know what they all are. Saying if you don’t know what all those are right now, that’s okay. All you know is your body’s giving you an alert that you can honor that alert system. And that you can get to safety. Anne: One of the things that victims feel, Sheroes who have pulled themselves out of the depths of abuse. They make their way to safety, and don’t feel confident. Because a lifetime of abuse or years of abuse or continued post separation abuse has really messed with our brains. Building Confidence As A Mom Anne: This can be true when dating when an ex has covert narcissist traits. And our psychology, and the amount of doubt we have in ourselves from emotional and psychological abuse, is pretty extreme. We’re learning to trust ourselves again. We’re learning to trust our intuition again. There are so many things that as a victim of abuse, you’re learning to do either again or for the first time. So in what ways can moms be confident in raising their kids, even in a less than ideal situation? Mykell: Yeah, I love that you pointed to the fact that there’s a lot of doubt that every mom experiences. And then with abuse and post separation abuse, there’s this added layer on top of it. And it’s the inability to discern sometimes what is even going on. Sometimes it’s a paralysis of not knowing what to do. Giving yourself grace to know that’s the boat you’re in right now. Just because you’re there right now. It doesn’t mean you’re always going to feel that way, or that if you do feel that way, you’re always going to feel powerless about it. You’re not doing this all by yourself. For me, figuring out how to raise my kids with this different life, this life I didn’t intend for us. Wonderful people dropped into my life that had walked the road before me that could show me. What this thing was supposed to look like. And it didn’t mean everything was going to be exactly cookie cutter. Sometimes it’s moms sharing the things they’re going through in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Sharing their legal troubles or discipline issues. In support groups, you realize, I am not alone. I’m not the only one who feels like this. Post Separation Abuse: Confidence Starts With Validation Mykell: I’m not the only one whose kid is doing this or whose ex is doing that. So much confidence starts when your experience is validated and you’re being heard. And you see that many people are going through similar things. And when there are so many ideas around things you could do or avenues you could take. That I think is so empowering to say there’s actually more than one way to walk through this. Though I may not get it perfectly, we’re all in this together. When you’re coming out of this kind of situation, you feel isolated, and sometimes you’ve been isolated. So self isolating is a normal thing. And forcing yourself back out and learning how to trust people can be hard. I’m so thankful that we’re in this digital age where these virtual groups are possible, a community. So when you think about what is the practical step, how do I start to do this? Working through your own healing journey is a big part of that. And God brings the ultimate transformation for us as we walk through these things with him. But one of the practical ways we experience is with other wonderful, safe people around us. Anne: We’ve seen that a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It’s awesome, because there’s no right way to do it. There are principles. Using boundaries to detach and keep safe, self care, a network of support. Anyone who’s worth their salt in recovering from abuse or post separation abuse will tell you those things. Those are important tools, but sometimes implementing it is hard, and how you’re going to implement it in your own life is hard. Group Meetings Are Important For Recovery Anne: Being part of a group and hearing how other women do it, or hearing other women and realizing, that doesn’t sound like it’s working. You don’t have to say that out loud, but at least you can hear it and think, okay, I don’t want to try that. It’s cool to share what’s happening with you and hear what’s happening with other people. Then the freedom to choose what you want to do. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend any particular life decisions. We put safety as the top priority, emotional, psychological, and physical. How you do that is up to you. I think women need the support of a community without the dogma of the community. Does that make sense? Mykell: Yeah, the thing that is so critical about what you’re saying is the style points. She did it this way, and that doesn’t fit my personality, but she did it this way. There’s so much in recovery that is about finding your own voice and making choices for yourself. And so many of these things, like you said, boundaries is a perfect example. Boundaries were so hard for me. I didn’t realize I didn’t have any. Or I didn’t realize that mine were so porous. And I would look at other women and be like, oh, no, that’s so abrupt. I don’t like the way they’re doing that. In the midst of getting to know different people, though, it was like, oh, that style works for me. It’s rediscovering, and I actually don’t like to say rediscovering, because I don’t know if we ever knew ourselves. Sometimes with these things, it’s discovering who you are, what your unique voice is, and how you can assert yourself in these instances of abuse and post separation abuse. Christian Perspectives On Abuse Mykell: It’s empowering. I’m feeling juiced up as I say this, to start to recognize how much agency you have. That’s what makes many of these tactics come to life. When you start to figure out your own voice. Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re interfaith, inter paradigm. We have atheists who listen, we have agnostics, and all denominations of Christianity, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here. Talk about some of the Christian myths or unhealthy cultural ideas in Christianity that harm women and keep them stuck in abuse. Mykell: One of the things we have to separate out, and this is not just when it comes to abuse or post separation abuse. There are so many areas. Not always do people reflect the heart of God perfectly. People, whether intentionally or unintentionally, can hurt each other with the banner of the gospel to justify their choices or behaviors. And recognize that there are some things that maybe a woman’s been told. Maybe she’s witnessed, maybe she’s experienced, maybe she’s been raised up in systems, all these kinds of things that don’t necessarily reflect the heart of God. So often there is this sense that whether it’s the husband or ex-husband who’s the abuser. Often women receive advice, and it’s well meaning in abuse or post separation abuse. But sometimes the advice is, you be the best you can be, and this person will change. Biblically, the word says God hates abuse. He hates it. In Proverbs 6, you can read through there. It says there are seven things God hates, and it lists off lying lips and hands that shed blood, and all these things. That if you look at them, they are the behaviors of an abuser. Anne: Adultery, lust. Post Separation Abuse: Biblical Teachings On Abuse Mykell: There’s a passage, and I’m going to mess it up right now because it’s not sitting in front of me, but I believe it’s in 2nd Timothy 1. Paul says to Timothy, in the last days, people will be lovers of self. They’re going to be abusive. They’re going to look like they have godliness, that they’re going to portray godliness, but be totally lacking its power. And that we should avoid such people. Those are pretty clear statements to say that you need to get away from somebody who’s abusive, someone who is using spiritual means to manipulate other people. And Paul thought it was so obvious and so dangerous that he thought to write to Timothy about it. And so we should take that same warning. With a community of believers, there’s vulnerability, and with that comes manipulation from people who would use it for selfish gain. So the intention in our communities should be to offer safety and vulnerability, and to ensure that we are clear about rooting out what would take advantage of that. That’s not always the message that people receive that are in abusive type of circumstances. Anne: In the church, when you talk about evil, or you talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You’re thinking about it as someone outside the church who’s trying to lure you away from the church. Or trying to influence you to not live the commandments. And it’s so infrequent that anyone addresses evil in the church. Or in your own home. Recognizing Evil Mykell: Yeah, and the Bible says Satan will masquerade as an angel of light. We need to recognize that. Yes, can there be people from the outside trying to come in and infiltrate the inside? 100%, but do they also exist on the inside? Also, yes, 100%. Anne: Right, and it might be in your own home. Mykell: Mm hmm, that’s right. We have to recognize, and Jesus goes through the steps in Matthew 18. We are called to see it, call it what it is, and we’re called to move ourselves away from that and get to safety. That is a biblical way of handling an abusive situation. Your life is precious to God, and all that is designed to keep you very much fixed in the center of his love and protection for you. There’s only so much you can do to walk with somebody when they are resistant. They don’t want to see the truth, that we’re called to move ourselves away from that, so that they can walk in their own path. God desires safety for his people, does desire them to flourish. He desires each woman in this instance to become the woman he had designed her to be, and not sacrifice that for the sake of a person who is not willing to turn their lives over. Anne: They’re essentially sacrificing it to evil almost. And women think of it as sacrificing themselves to something better, because they’re trying to protect their families. But the reality is they’re not sacrificing themselves to something better. They’re sacrificing themselves to abuse, which is not the better way. Calling Out & Separating From Wickedness Mykell: Calling it evil is so important. If the Bible says God hates it, we should hate it. If it says it’s evil, we should call it evil. It’s not a bad behavior. bad manners, or short temper. It’s evil. All of these things are considered abuse. Anne: The scriptures don’t say abuser, the scriptures use the word wicked. I’m loving that word. Mykell: Right, in Proverbs often you’ll see the word wicked, mocker, sometimes fool. Proverbs uses a handful of different words to describe people who do these things. But in all these instances, it says to get away. It says if you rebuke a mocker, they’re going to abuse you. So that says you’re not going to have a reasonable conversation with this person. Sometimes your separation, your distance, your movement away from this person is the communication. It’s certainly meant for you to gain some distance and safety, because it’s much more likely they’re going to influence you than you’re going to influence them. Anne: We suffer from betrayal trauma, which changes the way we think, changes our brains, changes our chemistry in our bodies. So many women suffer from health problems and depression. It’s a serious issue. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Most women would probably not describe their husband as misogynistic. But some examples of misogyny are so subtle, you may be surprised to realize your husband is doing them. 3 EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY 1. HE NEEDS A LIST FOR EVERY HOUSEHOLD CHORE Your husband might say he is happy to help around the house, but only if you tell him exactly what to do. He might expect you to write detailed lists, remind him to finish chores, or walk him through basic childcare tasks. By waiting for your directions before lifting a finger, or leaving things unfinished, he forces you to carry the entire mental load of running your home and maintaining your relationship. When your husband doesn’t help with the housework it shifts those responsibilities completely onto your shoulders, because of misogyny, leaving you feeling more like his personal assistant or his mother than his equal partner. 2. HE CHOOSES INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL OVER TRUE INTIMACY Many women might not even know this is happening. He might hide his misogyny. What a woman might notice is that her husband doesn’t seem truly interested in her. He might ignore her by spending long hours in his office or on hobbies, until he needs something from her. He may give excuses like, “I have a ton of work to do. You go to bed. I’ll come when I’m done” or “I’m stressed and I need to go cool off,” while he secretly uses that time to pursue fantasy over his real-life marriage. This behavior undermines the emotional and physical intimacy that is foundational to a healthy marriage, leaving you feeling isolated, unwanted, and unloved. 3. HE APPLIES DIFFERENT STANDARDS TO YOU THAN TO HIMSELF BECAUSE OF MISOGYNY Misogyny often shows up when your husband holds you to different standards than he does for himself. For example: he might criticize you for buying clothes or something for your home, while he spends freely on his personal hobbies, or he expects you to keep a tidy house while leaving his belongings scattered in every room. This double standard often extends to shared finances. He may hide money, refuse access to bank statements, or pat you on the head with phrases like, “I’ll take care of the finances, you don’t need to worry about it.” This behavior strips you of your voice and agency, leaving you in the vulnerable position of not having access to betrayal trauma resources you need to live in emotional safety. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. For strategies to deal with this type of abuse and establish peace in your home, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Key takeaways from the interview: Recognizing Patterns of Misogyny in Relationships How Misogyny Interferes with Truth and Healing in Therapy When Your Husband Uses the Truth to Lie The Connection Between Misogyny and Inappropriate Media TRANSCRIPT: FINDING SUPPORT AND NAMING THE REALITY OF EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY Anne: Welcome Virginia. Virginia: Thank You for everything you do. I would be lost without BTR. You have seriously brought me back to life. Anne: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. How did you find out about BTR and betrayal trauma in marriage? Virginia: It was the oddest thing. Something came up on YouTube that showed BTR.ORG. I tell you fate, whatever you wanna call it, I checked it out and that’s how I found BTR. When I started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. The first session, I couldn’t believe in a sense of relief that, oh, I’m not the only person living in this world. And not that it’s relieving to know that other women suffer in this manner. You feel like you’re on your own planet. And you don’t know what to do. Hearing the other women’s stories in what they’ve been through is just heartbreaking. But the ability to share and validate each other is amazing. And the coaches listen so well. The feedback they give is invaluable. They’re on top of it and they remember everything. I don’t know how they do it. I’m not on very often. I know other people are on much more often than I am. But I’m telling you, this is a lifesaver. It really is. I don’t know what else to say. I can’t say enough about it. Anne: I am so grateful. It’s helpful. I think our coaches are incredible. Our whole team is incredible. I think one of the reasons we’re incredible is because we’ve all been through it with misogyny, so we understand it on such a visceral level. And then we have really great training and we know what we’re talking about. UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY ARE IN MARRIAGE Anne: I’m really happy that it was helpful to you. Let’s start with your story and the misogyny you endured. Virginia: So I married my Chuck in 2002. I married once before for seven years. I have two children from that first marriage. It occurred to me after realizing what was going on in this current marriage. That I was also experiencing more physical abuse and sexual abuse in the first marriage. So this has been an eye opening experience. The entire beginning of our marriage, he made me feel unattractive. That he did not want to be intimate. He was tired, too busy, and worked so hard and all this. And I would think to myself, that doesn’t seem to add up to me, and I couldn’t quite understand. But as a woman, you take it out on yourself and think, what am I doing wrong? What am I not doing right? Am I not pretty enough? I had discovered so many things, pornographic materials, books, cross-dressing clothes in his car. Magazines everywhere. And I confronted him on this. Because here I am, newly married, with two small children of eight and six years old. My thought was, I can’t put them through this again. I can’t have another divorce, it will devastate them. And I knew at the time that it was wrong. He told me he was going to get help and take care of this. He brushed away a lot of it as nothing. I was just in shock and trusted him. FINDING INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL – MY HUSBAND BLAMED IT ON OUR SON Virginia: Fast forward a little bit. My son was about 10 and the basement was not finished at the time. I had it set up so the kids could play. And there was a little TV down here for them. Well, I found pornographic videos tucked into the couch and behind the couch. I went to my husband and said, “You’ve gotta be kidding with me right now. The kids play down there. You can’t do this. This is unacceptable.” And his answer was, ” Oh, it must be our son’s, he must be looking at the videos.” Anne: It’s just so offensive to me that they don’t even care about kids. They’ll exploit and use children. There’s no excuse for the misogyny. Virginia: Right . then three or four years later, I had upstairs in the kitchen, a computer. Because I want them to do their homework in there. This one night they went to bed. I was going to play solitaire and I find porn. So I called him out into the kitchen and again he swore, “I will get help. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.” And went to therapy and all of this. So here we are. He’s been going to a 12-Step program for all this time. It’s been 20 years. This is an interesting thing, and I find common through conversations that I’ve heard through the other women. You know something is wrong, and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly what was wrong. DISCOVERING THAT HE’S HIDING MONEY Virginia: The first thing I found was the money. He was hiding money all throughout the house in books, you name it, thousands of dollars hidden. I didn’t tell him I knew that there was money hidden everywhere. He figured out that I found it, because all of a sudden the money was all moved out of the hidden places. I still, till this day, have no idea where all that money went. This is evidence of misogyny. He said, “We spent it”. I said, “No, we didn’t.” Then we started to redo the basement. I cleaned out the basement, and found every single one of those magazines. He supposedly threw away 20 years ago. I was furious and didn’t say anything. I packaged every single one of them up in trash bags. And I put them in the back of my car with a bunch of other boxes that I had cleaned out. And when I dropped off the donations, I was going to bring the trash bags with the magazines to the dump. He emptied all of those bags out of my car, every bag. And I never told them I found them. I didn’t say a single word. And I found them in the garage. I took them, and again, I didn’t say anything. I brought them out to the fire pit, and God forgive me, I burnt every single one of them because I was so mad. And two weeks later, he went out to the fire pit, and he came and he said, ” Hey, do you wanna help me clean up that mess out in the fire pit that you made?” And I said, “No, I really don’t.” EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – LOSING MY INDEPENDENCE Anne: Was he calm when he said it? Virginia: He’s always calm. Anne: That’s so scary. It’s like that chilling kind of calm, right? It’s like terrifying. Virginia: This has been a really difficult situation, because I was supposed to have retired. I am retired, but now I have no independence. And I’m trying feverishly to find a job, so I’m relying on him to pay the bills. I bought this house as a single mother with two small children. And I put his name on it when we married. So now, I’m in a difficult position, so I am here with him in the home with no choice right now, but to stick around until I can find another job. Anne: Until you can figure it out and realize the effects of misogyny.. I am so sorry. Virginia: It is so hard, yeah. Anne: I was gonna ask, before you found the money or the pornography, he was going to 12 Step ? Virginia: He would go every week. He wouldn’t discuss his sobriety, but it was SLAA , Sex, Love, Addiction Anonymous. It’s based off the same 12-Step that AA is based off of. Nobody knew he was going except for me. So in a conversation that we would have privately, his response would be, “Well, I know I go to a 12-Step program every week. I don’t know about them.” He would lord it over people. EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – MY HUSBAND THINKS HE’S THE VICTIM Virginia: And by the way, I am also very well educated and have had a fantastic job, and have made the same if not more money than he at times. Someone could take your self-esteem and twist it like that, and make you feel so bad about yourself. Because they’re doing something wrong, and so they’re just sort of taking it out on you. I couldn’t understand. And I’ll be honest with you, I still cannot understand that this person can still continue to lie and do these things after all of these years and look me in the face and say, “I didn’t do that. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” They asked him to leave. I actually paid for him to live in Airbnbs for a few months. Through this, he’s been going to see a therapist, but he’s clearly not telling the truth. What I’m getting is he’s feeling sorry for himself. He’s the victim. He’s the one that’s doing all the work, and he’s trying to make himself better. He left until this last Saturday. And I found more pornography links on his Facebook site, more chat rooms. So all this time we are going through this, and he’s swearing, “I’m doing the very best I can.” And he’s still doing the same things. I found out that it’s worse than I thought it was. So I’m living in a house with this man, who I really have no idea who he is. Because he cannot tell the truth. he’s trying to make me feel bad. And he’s using my son in the whole process. Anne: I am so sorry. That sounds like a nightmare. WHEN THERAPistS ARE FOOLED BY HIS LIES Anne: Before you understood what was happening, did you guys ever go to couple therapy for help? Virginia: I asked him years ago to go to therapy, because I felt he was depressed. His mood swings were so significant. It’s this heavy negative presence. Unnecessary anger, taking things out on people you don’t need to be taking things out on. The entitlement of misogyny. He would come in a room, and you could just feel the negativity coming off of him. He did go to see a therapist. I also went to a therapist. At one point, we met together. But it wasn’t working. The therapist recognized that, which I thank God for. I’d been going to therapy, a specialist, to work with somebody that is addicted to pornography, but also childhood trauma. I did not feel his therapy was working. I asked if I could be invited into one of the sessions. Because I wanted to give her the information that not only is he continuing to do what he was doing, but it’s worse than ever. Her response to me on that was, ” He’s telling a very different story from what you’re telling. And I’ve been doing this for a very long time. It’s very difficult for people to fool me.” And then she said, “Would you like him to get rid of his Facebook page? It seems like you have trust issues.” And I don’t mean to laugh, but I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW IF A LIAR IS TRUTHFUL, WATCH THEIR ACTIONS Virginia: She said to him, ” Would you be willing to get rid of your Facebook page?” He’s crying, and he, says, “Yes.” And she said, “Would that make you feel better?” I said, “This is not my call. I’m not here to be his mom or his parent. or for couple therapy. I’m here to give you the information. It’s in black and white. I have photos of what I found.” So just as I’ve heard you talk about, and I’ve heard in group sessions. “This person is now lying to you, and you’re telling me that you believe what that person is saying.” And I also said to her, ” I’ve been married to him for almost 24 years. I know what is true and what is not true.” Anne: It’s crazy to me that a therapist would say, “I’ve been doing this a long time. I know how to tell the truth.” When they have no other way of verifying the truth other than what he’s saying. She just thinks she’s a walking lie detector test or something. You don’t realize with a liar that in order to know the truth, you have to not talk to them, because talking is how they lie. So if you wanna know if a liar is telling the truth or not you have to watch their actions. And how they use misogyny to excuse themselves. THEY DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT TALKING IS HOW THESE GUYS LIE Anne: So any therapist who purports to work with liars, AKA sex addicts, and says to you, “I’ve been doing this a long time, I know when they’re telling the truth.” I’m like, did you hire a private investigator? Are you following them around all the time? How would you know that they’re telling the truth? You’re talking about a master manipulator. It’s crazy to me that they don’t recognize that talking is how these guys lie. Virginia: It makes perfect sense. At the beginning, I had been waiting for him to have an epiphany and say, I’m sorry, I lied. He continues to deny the fact that he blamed my son. He doesn’t remember blaming him on two separate occasions. You don’t remember? Boy, it seared in my brain pretty hard that was an accusation you made towards my son at the age of 10 years old, and the age of 13 years old. Also does not remember how the magazines got back downstairs, cannot recall how that happened. There’s no recollection at all. That’s quite convenient if you ask me. And the therapist’s response is, “When people suffer childhood trauma, sometimes they tend to forget or they block things out.” Anne: Something not related to their childhood trauma. That’s not logical. Yeah, a childhood trauma, maybe they forget things related to their childhood trauma. But you’re saying somebody with childhood trauma forgets what they said to someone yesterday? What? The two are not even related in the least. Virginia: Exactly. THEY JUST DON’T STOP MANIPULATING Virginia: So it’s been quite a frustrating journey, and I don’t even have words. For me, the worst part of it is that I had confided in my son and told him we were separated and shared with him. My son is very much like me, very inquisitive. He wants to know, And he wants to know to the point where he wants every detail. He’s 31 years old, but I don’t care. He does not need to know significant details. I gave him enough information, and he made the decision that this must be my fault, meaning me. That I must have pushed him too far. And I thought to myself, he’s always been unkind to my son, and it’s been a bone of contention. I’ve always tried to make a bond between the two of them to build a relationship. And he refused to do so. All of a sudden now he said, ” My father got in touch. To say he was taking me out for dinner.” And he’s asking our son to join us. I thought after 20, however many years, that I’ve been asking you to build a relationship with child, now man, all of a sudden now you’re going to go out and have dinner with him. So I did speak up last night and I said to him, I don’t think that’s appropriate. You need to leave him out of this. In my opinion, in my experience, they don’t stop. They’re such good manipulators, they just don’t stop manipulating. And that I think is a hard road for most people to navigate. EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – THEY USE THE TRUTH TO LIE Virginia: Epecially when you’ve trusted that person for so very long, or even for the shortest period of time when you love somebody and they betrayed you. The betrayal is beyond comprehension. Anne: Yeah, it is. At least for me, when I realized that everything that came out of his mouth was a lie, a switch flipped for me. And then I couldn’t believe anything he said. Even things that may be true that he said. He even uses the truth to lie. So if he’s telling the truth, that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean he’s being honest. It’s really hard to flip that switch, because there’s gaps. Why would a really good guy get mad over milk? Our brains automatically fill that gap with what we “know”. And what we “know” is that he’s a good guy. So of course, we’ll fill that gap in with, “Oh, he had a bad day,” or “He’s stressed out, or He’s tired ’cause he didn’t get enough sleep. So one thing that I wanna encourage women to do who are listening is just leave that gap blank instead of trying to think of a reason why. The reason why is often how they manipulate us, because we’re naturally going to look for reasons. Virginia: Correct, yeah, I agree. And I’ve seen that over and over again. Even to the point of he does not necessarily get angry. It gets very passive aggressive and will say things and then you follow up and say, Did you just say what I think you said?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about. I didn’t say What kind of a man would I be if I would ever say something like that.” THE SIGNS HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG Virginia: The signs of misogyny have been there all along. Constantly working, managing the house, taking care of the kids, doing all of that and finally I retire. I could not believe what I was finding. Anne: As we wrap up, is there anything that you’d like to share with listeners? Somebody who’s new. Virginia: When I first started listening to your Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It just hit me. And I really thought, thank God. It gave me courage. I’m actually getting goosebumps, a little emotional. And then I went on and joined into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. This is so important for women going through this type of situation. It is real. It is so important for your mental health. If you are in a situation like this. Please listen and join, because it is significant emotional abuse. And the cruelest thing about it is to try to prove it because nine times out of 10, I keep hearing. But he was such a great guy. How could that be? This truly is emotional abuse. Listen, take care and be part of the community. WOMEN MAKE SO MUCH PROGRESS Anne: Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story. If you are interested in coming back on to share with me how you’re doing in six months to a year since he’s still in the home. And you’re still in the middle of this. I would love to hear the rest of the story. Especially when women are getting services here, women make so much progress. I love to have women come back on and hear them sound more confident and more sure of themselves, because they aren’t liviing with misogyny. And you sound sure of yourself now, like you sound amazing now. Virginia: Thank you. Thank you for hearing my story. I appreciate it. Anne: Yeah, thank you so much. THE CONNECTION BETWEEN MISOGYNY AND D-DAY STORIES Anne: Now you’re going to hear a recording that Corrie sent in about an example of misogyny that so many women in our community experience. It’s frequently called D-Day for Discovery Day. It could also stand for Destruction Day. That’s the day women discover something awful about their husband, and it’s seared in everyone’s memory. Women who’ve gone through it often divide their life between what happened before this day and what happened after. This level of betrayal and deception is rooted in a profound sense of entitlement. So if your husband completely disregards your need for emotional safety, and he’s fine with lying to you, he’s basically deciding your pain and trauma and the negative consequences to you are really not that big of deal compared to what he wants. Over the years, I’ve heard hundreds, maybe thousands of D-Day stories. I personally experienced three D-Days, and you can read all about those experiences in my book, which will come out soon. To get on the mailing list for when that comes out, go to any page on my website and scroll all the way down and put your email into our community. If you’re listening, I want you to think about if you’ve had a D-Day or how many D-Day you’ve had and know that you’re not alone. There’s a whole community of women who totally understand what you’re going through. So here’s Corrie’s story. CORRIE’S D-DAY STORY Corrie: I just wanted to share about my D-Day, mostly because today is the three year anniversary. It was a Sunday, I had been at church, and that particular day, they had a special visitor come from the Church’s Addiction Recovery Program, specifically on pornography addiction recovery. They came and just kind of talked to the women and men of my congregation about the Addiction Recovery Program I only was able to hear a little bit of it. Since I was in and out with the baby, but I was just thinking at the time, wow, I’m so grateful I don’t have to deal with that. So we went home after church, and we got the baby and my older daughter down for a nap. And I talked to my husband, and I said something like,” I’m really glad that you don’t have that problem. So we don’t have to deal with it.” And he got this look on his face, just this like, green, almost sick look. And I said, am I right? We don’t have to deal with that, right? I thought it wasn’t even an issue. Before we got married, I asked him about it. But, he hadn’t been truthful. He was living a lie. It was three days before our three year wedding anniversary, which really pissed me off. Because I was looking forward to our anniversary. I can’t even remember right now what we had planned, but it just changed the whole thing, and I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. LOOKING BACK ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF D-DAY Corrie: After that, I just froze. I couldn’t trust my husband anymore. That trust was completely shattered, and I didn’t know where to go from there. I am one who has struggled with emotions, dealing with, sharing with, just feeling emotions. I grew up in a home where, especially negative emotions were not okay. We don’t talk about real things, like negative emotion. We don’t talk about depression or anxiety or pornography addiction. I didn’t know how to handle it. So I just froze. It took me a long time, in fact, it wasn’t until this year. When my husband had another relapse, and I was done. I started focusing on me, and that has helped me. It’s been good for me to look back on this, the third anniversary of my D-Day, and see just the crushed person I was back then and how it didn’t destroy my life. Anne: Corrie thank you so much for your bravery and recording your D-Day story. And how misogyny affected your marriage. If you would like to record your D-Day story, you can record it on your phone using voice memo, and then email it to [email protected]. And if I get enough of them, I’ll compile them into one episode and air that in the future. If you’ve just had a D-Day the first one or the second one, no matter what D-Day it is. And you don’t know what to do. The first step is getting educated about this type of abuse and getting the right support. Patriarchy fuels abuse. When I went through it, even though I went for help, the professionals I went to knew nothing about abuse THERAPISTS DIDN’T HELP ME IDENTIFY ABUSE Anne: And so their help actually prolonged my suffering. The couple therapists we went to, the pornography addiction recovery therapists, even the individual therapists, didn’t help me identify that I was a victim of emotional and psychological abuse.and sexual coercion. With a man who justified misogyny. That’s why I started podcasting, so that no other woman had to go through what I went through. So if you’ve had a D-Day and you’re wondering where to turn. This podcast is a great way to learn about the reality of your situation. Also to educate you about abuse, so that when you are ready to date again or you have a teenager you want to protect, you can identify it. And then to talk to women who are going through it. We totally understand what you’re going through. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are the safest, professionally facilitated group sessions on the planet. You deserve appropriate support, that doesn’t blame you for any of this. To see the group session schedule, go to /group/. We’d love to see you in a group session

If you’ve been thinking, “I dislike my husband,” but you feel guilty about it because he’s supposedly improved himself lately, here’s what you need to know. Why Disliking Your Husband May Signal Something Deeper Here’s the thing: if you dislike your husband, you’re not weird and you certainly haven’t done anything wrong. But I bet you’ve been asking yourself… Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying? Is this normal resentment? Am I too unforgiving? Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper? In emotionally abusive relationships, there may be times when he apologizes or he may use language he learned in therapy to make it sound like he’s making progress. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of “Mr. Nice Guy.” It’s Okay to Dislike Him Even if He’s Getting Therapy If it’s unclear whether he’s emotionally abusive, or not, take this free emotional abuse test. Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean you’re having a reaction to a person who no longer feels emotionally safe to be around. This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave. Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm. BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands For women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband. Transcript: I Dislike My Husband Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone. So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome. Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on. Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time? Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends. Early “Green Flags” That Later Made Me Question Everything Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else. Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this? Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so… Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her. Cece: Right. Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that. Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside. Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me. Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag. I Dislike My Husband, Does That Mean He’s Emotionally Abusive or That I’m Burnt Out? Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.” I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.” And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?” “Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency. Why It’s Okay To Dislike Your Husband Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work. CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is. And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins. Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression. But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it. Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point. Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not? Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated. When Things Changed After Our Wedding, I realized “I Dislike My Husband” Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it. Anne: Not like, gently. Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call. So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.” Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents. Anger Management Looked Like Change—But It Wasn’t Real Change Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that. And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes. Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point. And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point. And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors. Discovery Days, “Recovery Talk,” and Why I Dislike My Husband Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material. Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed. And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction. But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort. Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that? I Dislike My Husband: Wondering What He’s Really Doing When I’m Not Around Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on? He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am. And in that moment, I remember thinking, Who did I even marry? Who is this man? I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around. That’s when the starting realizing, I don’t like my husband. And it kind of freaked me out. Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors. CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around. Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it. Cece: Yeah, that’s true. I Dislike My Husband: Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hope Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself? Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on. There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle. But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage. Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past. Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons. Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore. That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive. I Dislike My Husband: Why Emotional Safety Must Come Before Deciding If He’ll Change Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense. Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, I dislike my husband, and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought. Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say? Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.” https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE Anne: Did she say, you are abused? Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on. And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change. More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that. There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him. I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course. Anne: You were resisting. Cece: Yeah. Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross. Changing Churches & Hoping Things Will Improve Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time. Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials. Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules. Waiting For Change When I Dislike My Husband Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer. Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost. Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance. Cece: Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff. Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance. And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out. I Dislike My Husband: How Boundaries Protect Women and Children From Emotional Abuse Cece: Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing. It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly. Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust. Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life. It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I Dislike My Husband: Another D-Day and the Numbness That Followed Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what. So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM. And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point. Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story. And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery. Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change. Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change. Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish. Cece: Right. Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true. Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed. Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah. Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it. This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either. Anne: This is an addiction therapist? Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest. Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest. Disclosure & Accountability Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything. We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing. Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again. Cece: That’s possible. Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it? CeCe: I don’t know. Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change. I Dislike My Husband: I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed Again Anne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image. Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg. So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me. Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay. Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end. Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself. Anne: It sounded as if he could change. Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling. I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.” He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point. Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house. My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor. When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.” Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change. The Church’s Role Turns To Blame Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously. And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.” I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you. It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point. Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma? Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point. Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The betrayal trauma support group near me was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward? I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.” I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage. And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit? Letting Go of Hoping He Would Change and Finding Safe Support When I DisLike My Husband Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, I dislike my husband — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point. I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first. But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it. I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage. My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him” Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in. Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not. Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still. Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you. Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day. I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried. Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?” I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church. That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary. After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier. Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system. And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow. And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide. So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all. Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do. Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change. Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?” It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.” My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules. Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way. Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in my workshop. Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there. I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since infidelity is abusive. He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.” I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, I dislike my husband, wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices. Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries When I Dislike My Husband Cece: We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me. But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband. I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people. Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will. Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out. Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself? Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to. Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change. CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha. Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today. Cece: Thank you so much.

If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes. HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE 1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you.  It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming. Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating. 2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.” Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits. 3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP  If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed. If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior. 4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING  You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all. Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird. 5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS  If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself. But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing. If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our free emotional abuse test to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Key takeaways from the interview: Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES Anne: I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna. Welcome. Cynthia. Cynthia: Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here. Anne: So Cynthia, let’s start with your story. Cynthia: In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits. We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one. Anne: They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING Cynthia: absolutely. On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done? Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month. He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him. I was on antidepressants. We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?” And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment. HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN Anne: So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.” This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying. Cynthia: In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that. And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks. Anne: That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks. It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS Anne: The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable. I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “no, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. And so I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him? Cynthia: Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst. HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING Cynthia: The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted. Anne: I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends. Cynthia: I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well. Anne: Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography. But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explain why he was okay on vacations with other people. Because when you’re on vacation with more people, you could be talking to your mom or friends, and he could say something like, “Oh, hey, I’m just gonna run over here to the store real quick.” And you wouldn’t say, oh, I’ll go with you. You’d be like, oh, cool. I’ll talk to my mom. When other people are around, he can sneak away, use porn. It’s just way harder to do what he wants to do when you are the only person around. Cynthia: And I also noticed a shift in his behavior in the evening, so we would very rarely go to bed together. His excuse was that he wasn’t tired. I think he was using in those times, as well. THEY DON’T VIEW WOMEN AS PEOPLE Anne: There’s a huge connection between pornography use and men with covert narcissist traits. Women might think their husband’s don’t use pornography, that he is cleanbrowsing. I’m like, wait, tell me all the clues. And they’ll tell me and I’ll be like, that clue points to pornography. That one points to pornography. So, the likelihood is so high. It also means that they don’t view women as people. Cynthia: Oh yeah, absolutely. I remember I had a lot on with work, coming home every night and it was like I was going into this roundabout like round and round and round talking about nothing and never resolving anything. He was traveling a lot. And during that period where he was traveling, I had a bit of mental space. That’s when I discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I wrote this into Google, “When your husband blames you for being upset about his behavior.” And your website came up, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And I was like, “Wow. I’m being gaslighted.” And that was like my D-Day. That’s when I first started to discover that I was in an abusive relationship. I just started to feel. I’m not alone. It’s not me. I saw the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I immediately signed up for it and I did the whole thing, in one night. It’s really easy to follow. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: HOW LABELING HIM ISN’T HELPFUL Cynthia: I was so grateful for the website. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. I was listening to those every day and then I signed up for the BTR group coaching. If I hadn’t discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know what I would’ve done because no psychologist was able to help me. BTR Group sessions were better therapy for me than a therapist, because I felt understood. I have not met any therapist that can explain things in the way that you’re able to, Anne. I really appreciate that because I feel like some of these tags, are being overly used these days. Anne: Those labels tend to explain why he does it rather than focusing on just the plain old fact that he does it. It doesn’t matter why he is abusive, he’s abusive. I don’t really care why he’s lying. He’s lying. I like focusing on what is happening rather than why it’s happening. Because the focus on why tends to end up accidentally taking women into, well then if I understand the why, like he’s a narcissist or he has childhood trauma or something, then you keep your focus on him. like, how can I help him? Or how can I solve this? Even how do I explain it to other people? Which still keeps you in that vortex. Cynthia: Yeah. My psychologist didn’t really understand what was happening. SUPPORT OF THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP SESSIONS Cynthia: I remember hearing, one of the podcasts when you interviewed another lady and she was saying about going in this roundabout. You get into a discussion and you can’t get off the roundabout. And it got to the stage where every time I came home from work, it was like I was being sucked into the black hole again. Discussing something and never resolving it. The support of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions made me realize that this is someone who doesn’t care about me or my feelings. And I also had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery one-on-one coaching session with one of the BTR coaches to decide, should I really just separate from this man? I’m living a normal life now, and able to go out and socialize. I’m promoting this to every woman that is in an abusive cycle. Anne: Thank you. You and women like you are exactly why I do this, because we’re the same. I went through the same thing. I know the confusion. And it’s just awful when you go to therapy and you can’t get help or when you’re going to clergy and they’re giving you the wrong information. It’s so hard to navigate. So thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing this. ‘Cause, if more women knew about it, I think we could really save women from years of pain in dealing with their husband’s covert narcissist traits. Cynthia: I would not have been able to recover without all of the material that you have. Especially, during the divorce process. It really helped me because I decided to use the best solicitor I could find that could manage the transaction with him. Removing myself from having any interaction with him, really helped. HE’S USING HER INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM AGAINST HER Cynthia: So I can live my happy life now. Anne: That is my life mission. It’s what I focus on every day, all day long. Cynthia: I have a really good friend her daughter is in an abusive relationship cycle, and she’s bought the BTR Workshop. But the problem we have is we can’t get her to Betrayal Trauma Recovery . Because she thinks that maybe we’re pushing her for the divorce and we’re not doing that. And what I say to my friend is, ” Well, the great thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is they don’t promote divorce, actually. Your daughter can keep herself safe and protect the children. So anyway, I bought her the Workbook. She’s gonna be fine when she sees the truth, but she doesn’t want to educate herself on what to do. Anne: I wouldn’t even say she doesn’t want to, she’s naturally being very confused. That is going to feel bad. I’ve talked to so many women who say something like, I’ve been praying and praying and praying about it, and it just can’t be that because it doesn’t feel right. I get that because we need to get back in touch with our intuition. Your intuition is warning you, something’s wrong. You can feel that and they’re interpreting it through, “Well, it’s wrong. And so i’m gonna keep trying to talk to him, I’m gonna keep trying to work this out.” So he’s using her internal, warning system against her. Of course it’s going to feel bad. It’s abuse and even when you’re doing the right thing, it’s still going to feel bad. IT’S ONLY GOING TO WORK WHEN SHE’S READY Cynthia: I have this other friend who’s been in this cycle for six years. I keep sending her your podcast. It’s too scary for her. There must be thousands and thousands of women like this, feeling in this fog, and they just can’t get out. So when she’s ringing up her mum to say, “Hey, Chuck just did this, he just screamed at me or punched the wall.” What can the mum say to help her? Is there anything apart from just listening? Anne: Listening’s good to help women deal with the confusion around their husband’s covert narcissist traits. I found that women I meet in my congregation, for example, I’ll be like, I know what to do here. And I take it over to them. They don’t tend to watch it. Because they’re like, I don’t need this. I’ve got my therapist kind of a thing. And that’s really sad. ’cause then I see them in that same cycle for years and years and years. And I keep asking, have you watched it? And they’re like, no, I don’t have time. So it’s women like you who are like, I’m gonna enroll in this. Who actually see the value in it. Cynthia: The sad thing about that though is the BTR Workshop, it doesn’t just make you feel seen. It also can help you prevent being with an unhealthy person in the future. Whether that be a friend, whether it be, unhealthy family members. Once you start to know the signs, there’s so many self reflective exercises. It’s very empowering, for women to go through that. Especially when they’re in a time of need. I agree with you. That’s why I said to my friend, “It’s only gonna work when she’s ready.” IF THEIR HUSBAND HAS BEEN MANIPULATING THEM WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS Anne: The other problem is that if their husband has been manipulating them and using covert narcissist traits. And they’re going to a therapist. They’ve gone to multiple therapists, they’ve gone to multiple clergy and they’ve tried all these things. Everyone is like, “This is what to do.” And it never works. Then why in the world would this random lady be the answer? She’s just like everyone else. What else is she gonna tell me? It’s really hard to be like, I promise the BTR Workshop is nothing like anything you’ve seen before. Cynthia: Absolutely. Anne: Not what any therapist is gonna tell you. Because they haven’t experienced it, they can’t really understand what I’m talking about. I had to set it up step by step to really understand it. Because there’s no way to just explain it. It goes into extreme depth, but it’s very clear. If I try to explain it without the videos, which I did for years. It just got all muddled up. Cynthia: No, you need the videos. Anne: Because the visual, seeing it is what helps it click for women. Cynthia: I was wondering, as we’re talking now for all these women that are going to these therapists. How about if they were educated on this? Because it feels like that’s really the only avenue to reach those women watching the workshop videos. I STARTED FEELING BETTER AS I DID THE BTR WORKSHOP Anne: I’ve had people do it, then they go to therapy. Or do other things like art therapy. And do that for years. And then they’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait. There was that Workshop. I gotta do that again. They do it again. And they’re like, Ahhh! Cynthia: What I loved about the whole thing, is I needed help immediately when I had my D-Day discovery, where I was like, wow, I’m being gaslit. So I have this recording now. I wanted to know what I could do, and the BTR Workshop enabled me to just do that. And I think I started, eight in the evening and I couldn’t stop. I was starting to feel better as I was working through it. Like, wow, I’m starting to see the light and I feel good. I’ve had very expensive therapists. I’m talking thousands for just a weekend retreat. And the Workshop helped me tenfold. Because I was able to have the tools to take care of me. Anne: I appreciate you and any of the other listeners out there who are getting the word out about BTR, to everybody that you can, because I kind of get lumped in the same category as maybe like a covert narcissist traits influencer or something. Rather than realizing the services that we have here and the information in the workshop is very solid. Cynthia: Oh yeah. Anne: Rather than just “selling some online course.” IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY Cynthia: Yeah, it’s been very well thought out, and it takes you on a journey of discovery about your husband’s or your partner’s true character. And then it gives you specific tools, to protect yourself from covert narcissist traits so you’re in a safe place. It’s for women that are in a relationship that don’t want to leave the relationship to protect themselves at home, maybe in home separation. It’s for women that want to educate themselves, that want to understand why they’ve been feeling like they’ve been living in this fog. When I’ve been joining the group sessions, there’s been women of all different stages of the recovery. There’s people like me that were in the initial discovery. For me, the workshop is the beginning of the recovery journey, and you really have to start there to know that you are not the problem. I mean, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve done. It’s better than anything. It’s helped me the most in my life. Anne: Thank you. It’s such an honor to hear your story and it feels really good that it’s helping people. Especially because sometimes I feel like I have this amazing information and there’s also no risk. There’s a lot of risk to therapy. It’s expensive and it’s a lot of time. And I don’t think people realize how risky it is. Whereas our BTR Workshop is zero risk. It’s not too expensive, and it doesn’t take a ton of time. And listening to the Betrayal Trauma Podcast is also zero risk. There’s just this one little tiny risk, and that is that your whole life might change. Cynthia: Yeah. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS CAN BE EXHAUSTING AND CONFUSING Anne: I guess that is the risk. And that seems too risky, maybe for some people. Anyway, thank you Cynthia. I so appreciate your help, and spreading the word and sharing your story today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Cynthia: Thank you. It’s been wonderful to be here. And please, uh, continue doing all the great work you’re doing. Anne: I’m so grateful to Cynthia for sharing her story. Her experience shows how exhausting and confusing these covert narcissist traits can be when you’re in the thick of it. So next we’re gonna shift gears a little bit. One question I hear often from women who are doing the work of healing is, “How do you start trusting yourself again and how do you make sure you don’t miss those subtle red flags of this covert narcissism if you ever start dating again?” Two other members of our community, Maisie and Lorna talk about what these patterns look like if you’ve left a narcissistic abuser. But before we hear their stories, I’m gonna share a little bit about my own dating history. Anne: I didn’t get married until I was 30 and I dated so much before I met my ex-husband. At that time, I thought I had a really strong self worth. When I met him, was like, this is the man I’ve been waiting for. I have no regrets. EXPERIENCE WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS WHILE DATING Anne: I’m so grateful that I married my ex because I wouldn’t have my kids or the life that I have now without his amazing contributions that he’s made to my knowledge about emotional and psychological abuse and narcissists. Um, I’m not gonna diagnose my ex as a narcissist per se, but when you read the definition of narcissist, he definitely has those characteristics. So I don’t really want to go back in time to avoid marrying him. But I didn’t do some things that I would do now if I were dating. My main problem was I laid it out on the table. This is exactly what I want. I would talk a lot. And my talking was the perfect setup because all they had to do was agree with me and nod their heads. And I thought I’d met the man of my dreams. If I date now, I don’t say very much, and I ask them questions and then observe , because I don’t want to put all my cards on the table and say, I love Star Wars. Me too. I love Indiana Jones. Me too. Rather I say, what kind of movies do you like? When you’re having a conversation with them, do they ask you questions about yourself and your life or do they monologue and then they let you monologue. So you feel like they’re a really good listener because you talk and talk and talk and they listen. Try pulling back on your conversation and just see if he listens, when you just say one thing. Okay. I want to do this and then pause. And see how he responds when you give very short answers without a lot of context or without a lot of explanation. MAISIE TELLS HER STORY Anne: Maisie, can you tell us just a tiny bit of your story about dealing with covert narcissist traits in relationships? Maisie: I was married for 10 years. Even before I was actually married, I had maybe three bad relationships, one which was violent. The guys I have tended to get in relationships with have been just emotionally unavailable or not being able to show affection. Women can get confused. And I think that’s probably why I was confused before I really researched it to try and help myself is. People think abuse is just violence or really severe mental abuse. Is infidelity abuse? Actually like a lot of intricate parts of a relationship, someone cheating on you or someone being emotionally unavailable and withholding affection and you know you come home and they just don’t want to be around you or don’t want to talk to you and that kind of thing is abusive. So I didn’t really know that I had low self esteem. I knew there was something not right. Cause you ask yourself, why does this keep happening to me? I have two children now, two daughters. That’s with my husband, who I was with. And when we split up and I ended that relationship, I was really at rock bottom. That’s probably the lowest point I’ve ever been. That was only three years ago. We separated. And I think the whole year I must have read about a hundred self help books. I mean I just read night and day. Every spare minute I had, I read. I didn’t really go out much or socialize. I thought I have to help myself because there’s something wrong here. IT ISN’T UNTIL YOU HIT ROCK BOTTOM THAT YOU DO SOMETHING Maisie: Because of all these continuous cycles I was putting myself in. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of women. You go along, you think you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it isn’t until you hit rock bottom that you’ll actually do something about it. Doing everything I could to help me, and I remember at the time thinking, I wish there was somewhere I could go, something affordable. I was on my own with my two children, just ended the marriage, so finances and everything was changing for me. Obviously, at the same time, I was also working as a domestic abuse advocate, so I’m working with high risk victims at work, and I’m going through my own thing as well. It just made me completely reflect on everything, with everything that I’d researched and, you know, learned for myself, trying to pull myself out of this hole. Anne: When you set out to discover what your “problem” was, you discovered that you do not have a problem. Maisie: That’s right. Yeah. TRUSTING YOURSELF AGAIN AFTER EXPERIENCING COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS Anne: . Lorna , can you speak to that for a little bit? Lorna: Yeah, when you’re in a relationship like that, all you do is overcompensate, you’re always thinking it’s your fault, you should be doing more, you should be a better person. It’s almost like your whole life revolves around trying to please this person. When you get to that rock bottom place, I’ve been in exactly the same place, where I want to just be out of this universe. I felt like I cannot deal with this pain anymore. My ex partner, who I have children with, he was exactly the same. We have a very similar story with that. I just couldn’t believe that I had children with a person who treated me so badly. Thinking, okay, well, he’s doing this because of who I am. It’s not because of who he is. It was exhausting. I would do everything I could to try and please this person. It never happened, until one day I just thought, I cannot do this anymore. Or I thought it was going to kill me, I did. Now looking back, I think there must have been some kind of inner strength within you to do that. All I could do was really reflect on and think to myself, I cannot allow this to happen to me again. I only live once. I need to have the best quality of life for me and my children. And I will never allow that to happen again. And I can’t control what he done. I can’t control about what half the men do out there. But I can control how I act on it, and I can control my happiness. And I am on my own now. HE SAYS HE’S GOING TO CHANGE Lorna: And all I think about is my own happiness and my children’s happiness. Maisie: When you’re in a good place and you’re going into a relationship. It’s a win win situation. A few years ago, I don’t know what I was willing to tolerate. I would just see, oh, this guy’s gorgeous, oh, he’s got a good job, he’s so nice, he’s treating me so amazing. And then I could find out, oh, well, he may be cheating on me. Oh, okay, well, I’ll just give him another chance. I’ll just give him one more chance. He’s saying he’s going to change. So I’ll just give him one more chance. So that’s why Know your worth and know your boundaries. Anne: When women really know their worth. Many abusers accuse them of being selfish, or prideful or not respecting men. What are your thoughts about dating after recovering from being abused by someone with covert narcissist traits? Lorna: It’s a peaceful silence within you. All your power and all the light comes from within. A lot of the times, the narcissist is the light and life of the party. I think a lot of people that you do see as really outgoing, they’ve got lots of issues right underneath. And no matter what kind of personality you have, if you stick to your beliefs and your values, you live by what you believe, because you’re not going against anything just to please other people. Maisie: It can be misconstrued even by women that they think, yeah, you’re manipulating a situation. This is treating men badly. No, it’s not. It’s all about you knowing what you’re worth, having the ability to be able to make choices and be confident about them. GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT Maisie: I mean, I never used to be able to make a decision. I used to have to run to my mum forever. Mum, I don’t know what to do. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? And now I’m like, it’s my decision. Women have got a lot to give. Anne: Yeah, after covert narcissist traits abuse, you might have that value conflict of being confident in what you want, but then also giving people the benefit of the doubt or wanting people to like you. And that’s totally understandable. something I always say to my kids and something that I apply in dating. Don’t put your best foot forward because you don’t want them to fall in love with your foot. You want them to fall in love with you. Well, I appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for sharing just a tiny bit of your story. Maisie: Well, thank you for having us. Lorna: Thank you so much. It’s been lovely. Anne: And to our listeners, think about what you think women should look for after narcissistic abuse. If you relate, comment below. ​

If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone. Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached? Why women need thiese bible references In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name. Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty. The Marriage Bible Reference For Women in a Confusing Marriage A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax. In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found. Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy. Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal. Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as: His need Her obligation A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden:“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test. The Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored. Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm. 1. “Deliver Us From Evil” — Matthew 6:13 Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.”Deliver. The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it. To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study. 2. “Guard Your Heart” — Proverbs 4:23 “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally. 3. “Resist the Devil” — James 4:7 “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation. 4. “Put On The Armor of God” — Ephesians 6:10–18 Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real. The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself. Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves. 5. “God Is Refuge” — Psalm 46:1 “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.” Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God. 6. “Hate What Is Evil” — Romans 12:9 “Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.” Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself. How The Wrong Interpretation of a Marriage Bible Reference Hurt Generations of Women Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that… “She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.” “All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.” “Her body is the solution to his sin problem.” The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have Lower marital satisfaction Higher pain Greater emotional disconnection Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience: Higher mutual satisfaction Better intimacy Greater physical responsiveness The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage. What This Means for Women With Children If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you. Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection. Examples in real life might look like: Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.” Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.” Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously. Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance. Reframing the “Marriage Bible Reference” Requirement Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness. If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home. The Bible does speak about marriage. But it also repeatedly commands believers to: Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13) Seek wisdom (James 1:5) Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4) Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances. Transcript: Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women. Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say. So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended. After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place? Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff. But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people. And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy. Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did. Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work. Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one. So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition. Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car. Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways. Biblical Perspective On Intimacy Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people. So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse. Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards. Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom. Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that. When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right. Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car. It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur. The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly. Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing. And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.” That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state. Personal Experiences & Struggles Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will. Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this? How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted? Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything. Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home. Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers. Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman? Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings. Trying To Change People’s Minds Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this? I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked. And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is. Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense. Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are. Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women? Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need. And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no. Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him. Sheila: Yeah, exactly. Anne: It’s like air and food. Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe. Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.” Marriage Bible References Don’t Promote Marital Coercion Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart. Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No. Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent. John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about. Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle? Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone. Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her. This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross. Treating Women Like Objects Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either. You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects. So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people? Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life. Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight? What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female. So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say. And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth? Respecting Women As Whole People Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything. And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men. Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat? And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun. Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach. I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect. Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust. The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault. Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs. Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem. And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone. And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him. Anne: Wow. Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically. A Disturbing Comparison Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen. But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone. Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this. We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used. Processing Trauma From Bad Advice Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years? Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it. And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women. The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that. Measuring The Harm Of Incorrect Interpretations of Marriage Bible References Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it. Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow. So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved. Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from. The Problem With Frequency Over Quality Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you. Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone. And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt? Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world. Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does? Measure Of A Healthy Marriage Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers. So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3. And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything. Anne: Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat. Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to. Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message of Incorrect Interpretations of Scripture Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message. And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against. We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it. Anne: Yeah. Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob? Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob? Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it. The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks. And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough. And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it. This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem. Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do. If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours. Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it. Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy. Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night. A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem. So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all. I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for. Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally. Women Tend To Outscore Men Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men. And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy. And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you. Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her. Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is. Changing Beliefs Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through. And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things. Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out. But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier. The Importance of Setting Boundaries Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately? Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries in marriage with their husband. They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority. Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing. Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me. Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting. Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident. Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern. But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace? And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way. The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man. Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband. They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage. I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you. Pray For Deliverance Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife. Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through. It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer. Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good. Encouragement For Women: Speak Up Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong. And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do. It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend. You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister. Finding Emotional Health & Safety Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people. And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people. Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that. Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth. Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.

Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg. See If Your Husband is Taking Advantage of You: 3 Ways 1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed? Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time. 2. He LIEs TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY  If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online. Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough. 3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION  If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.  If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this transcript you’ll find the following points: Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage The Impact on Children of His Exploitation Transcript: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha. Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me. I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device. That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries. WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps? Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t. Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair. Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed. SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better. He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps. Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually. Misha: It actually was. Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist. Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000. Anne: Whoa. FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us. Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding. Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time? Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it. I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information. Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days. Anne: Good for you. Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer. Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone? Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM Anne: Like thirst traps sort of-ish. Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday. I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.” I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead. HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning. I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house. HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER Misha: It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him. I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me. So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.” And I said, “It is him.” Anne: He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING Misha: Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed. Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam. Anne: Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it. Misha: Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.” Anne: Really. Misha: I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?” Anne: And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries. Misha: Exactly. Anne: It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position. Misha: He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time. THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM Anne: Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow. Misha: No, they said, “He is the victim.” Anne: Wow! Okay. Misha: He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage. Anne: There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them. Misha: We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites. AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT Anne: Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious. Misha: They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it. Anne: They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children? Misha: They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me. Anne: Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem. Misha: Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call. Anne: So then you’re not protected. That was scary too. Misha: I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk. Anne: What? MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND HE CLAIMS ADDICTION Misha: I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him. Anne: But that only benefits him and not you. Misha: Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him. Anne: Oh. Misha: I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.” And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?” “I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat. Anne: But we know that’s not true. Misha: He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.” Anne: Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography? Misha: Yeah. Anne: Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay. HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE Misha: Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.” Anne: Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage. Misha: Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?” And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.” Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once. Anne: Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military. Misha: Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care. Anne: Did he react to you filing for divorce? Misha: He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him. Anne: He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy. HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER Misha: He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the trauma process. He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care. Anne: That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what? Misha: Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children. it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. t was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN Misha: i He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen. Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee. Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children. Anne: It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children. Misha: Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.” Anne: Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too. Misha: And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.” I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN Misha: And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.” Anne: Well, at the very least, not have custody. Misha: Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing. Anne: It doesn’t make a difference. Misha: It doesn’t matter. Anne: Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material. Misha: Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer. Anne: I have found the Living Free Workshop helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW Anne: If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her? Misha: When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. And she told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” The best way to leave a narcissist husband is right away.” For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to. Anne: Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap. LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Anne: I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support. Misha: I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things. Anne: I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married? Misha: Oh, that was my thing. Anne: What do they think marriage is? Misha: If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “Am I over my ex the best way to know?” Well, I can look back at all the facts. Anne: Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye. I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE Anne: The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized. Misha: Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children. Anne: Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the Living Free strategies and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share. Misha: Thank you for having me on.

When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about boundaries in marriage. women need boundaries in marriage after broken trust They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like: How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful? How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting? Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me? When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. “Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?” Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG SO, How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage When Every Time I Try Things Just Get Worse?! Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement. Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as: If/Then Statements Ultimatums Statements of desires or values Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation. 3 Steps to Establishing Effective Boundaries In Marriage You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship? Identify The Cause Of The Harm The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm. Ask yourself: Do I feel emotionally safe in my home? What specifically makes me feel unsafe? When do I feel the least emotionally safe? When do I feel the most emotionally safe? If you want to go deeper, take my free emotional abuse test. You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm. Step 2: Separate Yourself From the Harm After identifying the cause, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach. Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions. For some women, that action might look like: Closing a door Putting in headphones Blocking a phone number Limiting communication to email For others, it may mean: Physical separation Filing for divorce Reporting a crime Creating distance to observe safely The key question is not: Did I say the right words? The key question is:Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm? Step 3: Measure Whether the Boundaries In Marriage Are Working Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable. Are you experiencing: Less anxiety? Less chaos? More mental clarity? Physical calm? Emotional stability? If the answer is yes, your boundary is working. If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat. Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior. They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you. Ask Yourself This Question: After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime. Transcript: How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage? What You Need To Know Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense. They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him. So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.” And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.” And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries. Introducing StrategIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this. And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Batrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on. There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points. Metaphor: Property Line & Trespassing Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence. So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage. And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life. So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm? How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Emotional & Psychological Abuse Anne: So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” Your abusive husband’s therapist may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him. Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist. Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him. The Importance Of Emotional & Psychological Safety Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety. The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries in marriage? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t. Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing. But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.” And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar. How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Mental & Physical Actions for Safety Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries in marriage. I detail a lot in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. It gives specific directions for “how do I set boundaries in marriage?” But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more. Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the workshop is for. Understanding Different Levels Of Boundaries In Marriage Anne: If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, covers different levels of effective boundaries. It covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse. So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation. We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now. And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do. Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” I hate it when my husband lies to me about small things. Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs. Boundaries In Marriage Help You To Be Safe Anne: So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you. Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety. Metaphor: How Would You Keep Yourself Safe If Someone Had Ebola? Anne: Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.” In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get. Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola. The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.” Continuing With Ebola Metaphor Anne: The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious. So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital. All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care. Creating A Protective Barrier That Actually Keeps You Safe Anne: You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication. So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter. You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors. Real-Life Example: When Carol Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse. Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.” She said, “You have to find an addiction recovery therapist, a certified CSAT who is male.” So her husband found himself a male therapist.” She also considered 12 step for wives of addicts. But things continued to be bad for Carol. The entire time this was happening, she was exposed to his emotional and psychological abuse. Even though she was resisting abuse and doing the best she could. Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was so traumatized and exhausted. She enrolled in the Workshop, and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned. Real-Life Example: When Olivia Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do. Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication. And then worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing. Real-Life Example: When Elise Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries. With the help of one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions, she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house. She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better. Elise was able to stop long term affects from emotional abuse from her husband. And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.” Let Me Know How You Have Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries. If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.

If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment. FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME 1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away. However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you. So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first. 2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not.  Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate. 3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it. Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner. 4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME” After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching “affordable relationship counseling near me” or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices. In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court. 5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR  Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home. So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of. TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABELE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her. Welcome, Aliya. Aliya: Thank you. Anne: Let’s start with how you met him. Aliya: I met him online through his network, taking classes and such. After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling. Anne: Were you paying for his services? Aliya: There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.” Anne: Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him. HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD” Aliya: At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me. Anne: So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement. Aliya: Exactly. Anne: In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This marriage therapy isn’t working. Can you talk about how like it first felt? Aliya: Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that. He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that. HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES Aliya: It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally. Anne: I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of signs of an abusive therapist in this situation. Aliya: When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel. Anne: Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples? Aliya: The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something. I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Aliya: One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point. I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat. There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years. That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good. EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER Anne: How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match? Aliya: He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up. Anne: So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything? Aliya: It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-counseling for at least another year after that. IT’S A LITTLE CULTISH Anne: It sounds very wishy washy. If someone isn’t paying for services, there’s no professional relationship in terms of the exchange of a fee is it like a church? What’s going on? Aliya: And it’s not well defined. That is the problem. I mean, you’re paying with your time, so you get 45 minutes. I get 45 minutes. If we have to cut it short on your turn, then I owe you the remainder of the time. Everything has to be equal in that regard. And nobody gets to dominate the conversation. Nobody gets one way time unless you agree to make it up later. It’s not well-defined. Anne: Which is hard because if you’re not paying them, how would you define that relationship? It kind of sounds a little bit commune-ish. Did it feel like that? Aliya: It’s a little cultish. And I think that’s his desire is to have a commune, really. Anne: Oh really? Aliya: Yeah. Anne: Living in a place where someone else made me dinner, but they didn’t necessarily live in my house. Doesn’t that sound good to everyone in some ways? WHEN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME IS CENTERED ON THE “EXPERT” Anne: So because you were in administration, was it working for other people? I’m assuming most of the “co counselors” volunteering in this network were women co-counseling other women. Was he the only man? Aliya: There were two or three other men. One who was pretty consistent, because he was doing all the IT stuff for free also. And there was one other guy that just came and went. But yes, 99% of the participants are women. He is a harem builder. Anne: If you didn’t have him as your co-counselor and you had another woman. Was it working out for everybody else? Was this affordable relationship counseling near me benefitting others? Aliya: I did co-counsel with a woman for a while, and yeah, I think some people were benefiting from it, but at the same time have to understand, these are just lay people. It’s not necessarily safe for people. And so it’s a little iffy, And I think sometimes it just devolves. Anne: From your experience, what warnings would you have for people when they’re looking for a resource? Aliya: Pay attention to your gut, of course. There were moments along the way when I thought to myself, this is not gonna end well for me, because I noticed him treating other people poorly. HE’S ROLE PLAYING Aliya: I just blindly trusted this person. His written work was so impressive. It had helped me so much that I couldn’t believe he could be a perpetrator. Anne: Yeah, I’ve recommended books in the past. Then we heard back from women who went to that author for services. It surprised me because their services didn’t seem in line with what was on the page. And of course, it is hard for me because this is what I do. And I’m not perfect. So people could meet me and be like, oh my word, she was not as nice as I thought or something. Maybe ’cause I had a stomach ache. You never know. There’s that saying, “Never meet your heroes.” Because the written word is edited, it’s different than meeting someone in person. I guess what I’m asking is in meeting him, was it a feeling like he didn’t understand his own stuff? Does that make sense? Did it feel like there was a disconnect that he was play acting what he knew was the right answer? Aliya: That’s a good description actually: he’s role playing. So he can be very empathic and know all the right things to say. But there’s no depth to it. As long as it doesn’t require anything of him, he can be kind and supportive because he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. It’s only when there’s a conflict with him that his true colors come out. MAKE SURE BOUNDARIES ARE CLEARLY DEFINED Anne: Well, and if you’re in a commune, I’ll call it that. There’s gonna be some conflicts. If you don’t set it up as like, “Hey, I am a professional. You’ll be paying me for my services. This is how long our sessions will be.” That’s how it’s set up here at BTR. There’s no one with a dual relationship. Accredited coaching schools train our coaches. Plus divorce coaching certifications and all those certifications that our coaches have here. They are the best emotional support groups online. There’s some clearly defined boundaries. So if someone’s setting it up as a friendship or a relationship of equals, that’s a different situation. That means he’s not in charge. It means he can’t call the shots because of the way it’s set up. Even though it’s affordable relationship counseling near me. Aliya: Right, theoretically. Yes, we’re all supposed to be equals. Anne: I think this is a lesson for women in terms of their spouses. Is that you can go to couple therapy with your spouse. You can get them all the right information. They can regurgitate the right information back to you, supposedly understand all of the principles of abuse. They could understand the principles of healthy living. But then not actually believe it or use it. I think that’s surprising to people. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: HE’S DOING IT ON PURPOSE Anne: Like with my ex, he went to therapy for a long time. He could talk about addiction recovery, recite the 12 steps. He knew it very, very well. And really acted like he was in recovery. So the difference between knowing something and either believing it or using it or having it in Christian terms, sort of written upon your heart. Sometimes Christians use that terminology. I think it’s surprising to people that somebody can live in those two worlds. Especially, like a lot of Christians come to BTR for help, knowing that their husband reads the Bible, goes to church or purports to be a Christian. He knows everything, but he doesn’t do it. It’s shocking. Aliya: It is shocking to realize that he wrote that book, which is so well known and so helpful. I still say the book helped me tremendously, even though I now consider it more of an autobiography. Yeah, it’s a weird disconnect. That if you have a conflict with him, he starts demonstrating all the abusive tactics he wrote about. And I even think it’s a little more sinister than that. I think he knows what he’s doing, and he’s doing it on purpose because he enjoys it. So he gets women to come to him, surround him, help him with his work, engage with him, display all their emotional wounds to him, and then it’s fun for him to do the big discard. Yeah, very hurtful. WHEN THE “EXPERT” DOESN’T VALUE PEOPLE Aliya: I talked to five or six other women who have worked with him and not been paid. Or maybe gone out with him a couple of times and had it end badly. He doesn’t value people. People are interchangeable to him. It could be me one day and somebody else the next day. That’s what I didn’t understand. How can you sit and open your heart to somebody, and really to them, you’re still a nobody? He could just replace you. I noticed too late that in the process of co-counseling with him for two years, my mental health was declining. I was starting to feel more depressed. And I was wondering, is he gonna cancel this week or is he not? I was new in the area and he wouldn’t introduce me to anybody, because that was against his rules because he was absolutely adamant that we could not be friends. So I had to listen to him talk about his friends and activities around here, and though we have things in common, he would never introduce me to anybody. So I felt dependent on him, and he knew it and encouraged it. I was trying to run it for him. Me and another woman were trying to run it. He just had other things he would prefer to do. But most people in the organization were there to see him, because he’s the famous author with a head full of knowledge. So it died down quite a bit. And then we had a big fracture, he and I did. Because I started to feel suicidal. HE WASN’T THERE FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDED HIM Aliya: He offered me a safe word to use in case I was really distraught. I could text him this word and he would know, and he would respond, and we could split some time together. Well, a few months went by and I used the word. He said he didn’t feel well and needed to cancel. That was for Friday. So I said, okay. He said, “We’ll do it Monday”. And I said, okay. Then on Saturday he changed the time for Monday. And then on Monday he told me he was feeling a lot better. So he would get back to me after he went and hung out with his friends. And he would let me know if he was available. And at that point I said, “No, thank you. I’m good. I don’t need to talk to you.” Anne: That’s very strange, that someone would not be like, okay, here’s the suicide hotline or something. Just putting you off rather than an actual suicide service. Or even say to them, “You know what? Suicide is not my area of expertise. I’m worried about you. I hope you can find the resources you need.” Even a frank, “This is outside of my scope of knowledge.” At BTR, because of confidentiality reasons, we don’t ever call any hotlines for anyone. But we would encourage someone to do it themselves. Like, you might be searching for affordable relationship counseling near me and need something outside of our scope. But to be like, I’m the end all, be all for everything. I’m so sorry, that’s wrong. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: I THINK IT WAS A SETUP Aliya: I think it was a setup in a way. It was his idea to have a safe word, and then he didn’t honor it. That caused a rift in the organization, because I was front and center in the organization. I answered his emails, helped him with his classes, and started groups for him. The one woman on the committee with me said, “Oh my gosh, wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is awful. I can’t believe it. I’m so sorry.” And the people started to think, well, where’s Aliya? What happened to her? Why isn’t she here? People wondered what happened. And I didn’t give a lot of details. I just said, “It’s not working for me. I’m moving on.” I thought it would be easy for him to generate a whole new group. And he has, they’ve started new classes. It sounds like they’ve had a retreat. The other woman on the committee with me called me and said, “Where are you?” Why aren’t you here?” And I was crying. I told her. She says to me, “Listen, I can’t fault him for something I didn’t witness.” I just said, “Do you really think he would behave that way if there were a witness?” And yeah, she didn’t respond to that. He’s so skilled at manipulating people. She’s a professional in some capacity who works with abused women too. It was horrifying. The betrayal in this affordable relationship counseling near me was amazing. So now she’s taken over most of my positions with him. The part that adds insult to injury is that he flipped the whole thing, blamed the whole thing on me. IT’S NOT MY FAULT HE’S NOT TRUSTWORTHY Aliya: I ended up feeling like it was my fault. Then I started to realize, wait a minute, this guy does not practice what he preaches at all. I just thought I could trust him. Like if you can trust anybody, it would be him, you know? And he knows that. Yeah, it’s not my fault that he is not trustworthy. He’s extremely good at his game. He’s so good. Anne: I’ve had other women who have been abused by therapists come on to talk about it. And the patterns are they’re not paying them or they’re not requesting pay. The sessions go longer than they’re supposed to. Physical contact, contact outside the session. It’s become like your social network. It kind of has a feeling of a church. ‘Cause it’s not like you’re paying and you’re all working together instead of professional services in this type of affordable relationship counseling near me. So those are some of the red flags. Aliya: Yeah, I agree. We did plenty of that, like emailing, texting, and things. So it wasn’t clean in any way. There were no well-defined parameters. I couldn’t tell, are we friends? Are we just working together? I’m working for him, but he is not paying me. We’re counseling together as peers, but I’m making myself vulnerable. He’s really not. That slowly dawned on me that he would stick to the same surfacey topics over and over again. HE’S A BAD ACTOR Aliya: Although he fancies himself an actor. If he wanted to cry, he got a photograph and sat down and looked at it and made himself cry. All just really weird stuff. Snuggling on the couch, even lying down on the couch a couple of times. Which was really strange for me, because I have a history of childhood sexual abuse, and it is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. But he takes it as, “Well, you know, it’s easier to cry it all out if you’re being held.” Very confusing, yeah. Like I know one woman who worked with him collaborated with him. So she asked him out, and he flew into a rage over it. When things go south like they did with me, he’s gonna say one of two things, either. Well, she just couldn’t accept that I wouldn’t socialize with her. He said that about me. Anne: This is someone who’s, sorry, I just have to interrupt and say, says someone who will snuggle with you on the couch. Aliya: Right. Yeah, and then the other thing that he always says is, “I’m a little concerned about her mental health.” So he said that about me too. He wasn’t really that concerned. Anne: He caused your mental health issues. Aliya: It was a huge betrayal. Like an arsonist, set a fire, and then run and hide in the bushes and sit and watch when the firetruck comes. ‘Cause he wrote the book, and then he gets everybody to trust him, and then he does what’s in the book. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: ABUSERS DO NOT LIKE STRUCTURE Aliya: Imagine the power he gets out of that, it’s sick. I use the word evil because I didn’t think of another word. It’s really sinister. Anne: The whole situation is sinister because of the lack of boundaries and the lack of structure. They do not like structure, because then they can’t do what they want, when they want it. So while it is affordable relationship counseling near me, there’s a huge emotional cost. And they have a hard time with divorce decrees, for example. And they have a hard time with things like what does the Bible says about divorce. They want her to follow rules to the T but they don’t mind just doing whatever they want. So having the structure of his organization be so wishy-washy and structureless, he gets to do whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And if someone isn’t paying to have him be there at a certain time, he can cancel. Aliya: Yeah, and he still thought I would do administrative tasks for him after all this happened. Anne: I’m so sorry that this happened to you, and especially on top of your own story, which we haven’t talked about, that you went through abuse with your husband and then had this experience on top of it. When your husband is abusing you and you don’t recognize it, and finally you do, and you try to go for help. But it’s another thing when the people that are supposed to help you, it could be a therapist, clergy or abuse specialist, worsen things. You don’t know what is happening. THIS BETRAYAL WAS WORSE THAN MY HUSBAND’S Aliya: Yeah, they felt so different. Because with my ex-husband, as you said, I didn’t really notice or realize what was happening at first. And then when I did, I made a clean break from him. But this person was touting himself as a champion of women and a great support and totally understands what you’ve been through. And that betrayal felt worse to me, because he totally does understand. He’s written about what it does to women psychologically and emotionally, and how devastating it is. He knows full well what he is doing, and that to me is worse. Anne: Well, thank you for coming to talk about your experience with affordable relationship counseling near me. This is really important. I do wanna stress that unsafe resources can come from women, they can come from men. They can come from anyone. In the court system, for example, we have victims who are dealing with super abusive guardian ad litems who are women and men. That’s hard too, realizing that any resource could be unsafe. And then knowing what to look for so that you can find safe support. I think the other part is making sure that if you’re isolated and everyone who has been through abuse is isolated. That you are also creating friendships besides the professional support you’re relying on. So finding a quilting group, a church, or a hiking group, or some outside resource is really important as well. That can keep you grounded and help you heal. Cause I think abuse victims can heal in any way. And they find their voice after emotional abuse. SAFE CONNECTIONS MATTER Anne: But having a friend who cares about you, who you can talk to every day and go for a walk with and go to a movie, is really important. We should not underestimate real life connections with real people who are our friends and family over professional support, over affordable relationship counseling near me. And that’s the hard part. So many people don’t understand abuse. There are so many victims who can’t think of anybody in real life that they trust. I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. If you have no one you can trust, coming to BTR. Going to our Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, going to betrayal trauma individual sessions is great. I think it’s very important that things are defined clearly. That’s something here at BTR we take very seriously. So our group sessions have a hour and a half time limit, and our individual sessions have a 50 minute time limit. Women pay for services. We are all paid. That’s one reason why BTR does not recommend other resources. It’s not that an other resource couldn’t be amazing, it’s just that we don’t actually know what happens behind the scenes. And then also hopefully starting to make friends in your area somehow some way. I know that’s hard and overwhelming, but that’s gonna make a big difference. Being able to have people in real life who are your actual friends to support you. Did you find that after falling out with him, because a lot of your friends were part of the organization, that you were then isolated? Aliya: Yep, definitely. FINDING A SAFE AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME NETWORK Aliya: I lost friends in the organization for sure. But I have also made some friends here, so I’ve got a little network. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes awhile, but I feel like I’m making friends. One of my friends back home called it way before it came to a head, and she said, listen, if you wanna hang in there with him, I still love you. I’m not judging you, but you just need to know it’s not gonna end well for you. And she was right, and she still loves me. She’s not judging me, she’s still my friend. So I actually appreciate honesty like that. Anne: We stand with you, having been through it myself with my ex and other exploitative people who have exploited me, been dishonest in other areas of my life. It’s really shocking and hard to realize that there are people like this everywhere, and to know that manipulative people prey on vulnerable people. And so when you’re in this vulnerable state, which is natural for you to be in, learning some safety strategies to navigate that time is important. HOW TO MAKE STRATEGIC DECISIONS Aliya: That makes total sense. And most of the women that come to that network are just coming out of abusive relationships. So they’re vulnerable. Anne: Yeah, the Living Free Workshop, that I wrote, has that built into it. How to determine who’s safe and who isn’t safe. When is affordable relationship counseling near me safe? How to make decisions, so that the decisions you’re making, as you recognize this is abuse, can be strategic as you move forward. So if you’re listening and you’re like, “oh man, I’m worried about that,” then check out the Living Free Workshop. Aliya, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Aliya: Thank you.

Many women quietly search how to prepare for divorce long before they say anything out loud. Preparing for divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s emotional, strategic, and deeply personal. How To Prepare for Divorce: A Practical Guide for Women Below are four essential steps to help you prepare for divorce with clarity. 1. Get Educated About Divorce When women start researching how to prepare for divorce, they often focus only on legal logistics. But emotional and communication strategies matter just as much. It’s important to understand… How to set boundaries during separation How some spouses escalate when control shifts What communication patterns protect you What NOT to disclose too early 2. Profile Your Husband One of the most overlooked parts of learning how to prepare for divorce is predicting how your husband will react. Why this matters: Divorce often changes dynamics. A man who seemed calm in marriage may become reactive when he realizes he is losing control. Knowing likely behaviors ahead of time allows you to: Plan communication carefully Avoid unnecessary confrontations Protect documentation Prepare emotionally Strategic preparation reduces chaos. The Living Free Workshop walks women through identifying patterns so they can anticipate reactions before filing papers. 3. Find the Right Emotional Support Preparing for divorce can feel isolating. Even strong, capable women feel shaken. You may need: A space to process fear Validation when others minimize Guidance on specific issues that aren’t covered on divorce “checklists” Community with women who understand A support group like Betrayal Trauma Recovery provides emotional support tailored specifically for women navigating betrayal and separation. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are not just certified divorce coaches, they’re trauma-informed coaches who understand the emotional toll of deception, gaslighting, and chronic instability. Divorce may be a legal process, but it’s also an emotional journey. Having the right support can make the difference. 4. Have Hope That You Can Thrive After Divorce When researching how to prepare for divorce, many women feel fear about the unknown: What will life look like? Will I regret this? Will my kids be okay? Can I really rebuild? Worry is normal. But listening to stories from other women who have walked this road can provide strength. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast shares real experiences from women who navigated divorce and found clarity, safety, and stability on the other side. Hearing those stories can help you see that divorce isn’t the end of your story. Transcript: How To Prepare For Divorce Anne: I have asked my friend Debra Doak author of High Conflict Divorce for Women, Your Guide to Coping Skills and Learning Strategies for All Stages of Divorce. So for women wondering how to prepare for divorce, this interview is for you. Welcome Debra. Debra: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. How Common Is Divorce Regret? Anne: So many women who have been through a divorce are like, ah, things would have gone so much better if I would have known this. Or if I would have known that. Debra: We don’t know what we don’t know. And as traumatized women, we often either underreact or overreact. Both of those things can put us in a poor position when it comes to divorce. We’re also often the lower earners, or stay at home parents, and can get hurt quickly in this process if not prepared, get caught off guard. We’re also more likely to make emotional decisions, instead of strategic decisions looking out for long-term well-being. And as we know, we are also likely to trust when trust isn’t really deserved. When you trust an untrustworthy person in divorce, sometimes that can come back to bite you. Anne: A lot of women aren’t interested in doing the Living Free Workshop, even though it’s for married, separated and divorced women. It’s just about strategy, but they don’t want to do it because they think. I only need to think about strategy in the worst case scenario. They want to focus on their marriage working out. Debra: When women are trying to make that stay, wait, or go decision. Having been through betrayal trauma myself, we take baby steps. Let’s get copies of financial documents, get a little more in the loop on finances. Let’s start setting a little money aside. So we kind of just put the tip our toe in the water of getting ready. Observing from a Safe Distance Debra: While we’re going to give 150%, 100% to the marriage, and maybe 50 or 40 percent to setting yourself up just in case. Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what the Living Free Workshop is about, how to observe from a safe distance. While determining his true character, what reality anticipates is what’s going to happen next. Also focusing on your own goals. So there is a section of Living Free that educates women about divorce. If they’re not interested, they can skip that part. But it’s just basic divorce education, which is important for every woman to have no matter what her situation is. Debra: Yeah, definitely is. I mean, preparation makes any divorce go more smoothly. Because when we act out of fear, we don’t make good decisions. And so even if you don’t have a high conflict person, divorce can still be very conflicted. In the case where you’ve been with an emotional abuser, you need to be prepared for what could happen. There’s a great test to see if he’s emotionally abusive, click here for that. The sense of entitlement that’s allowed them to behave in the ways they’ve behaved during the marriage. It is also a sense of entitlement that can cause a switch to flip when the woman decides to divorce them. Anne: Yeah, it’s hard to even wrap your head around the fact that they might flip that switch. And that happened in my case, it happens in almost every case I see. Where a woman was manipulated to think he would always pay child support or alimony. How To Secretly Prepare For Divorce Anne: And to be in the position where he’s not even remotely, the person you thought he was, is so alarming. And because we’ve all been through that stage where we think, he’s not going to do that to me. That’s not going to happen to me. I think all women, I mean, in high school or college, or somewhere, we all need education about divorce. Debra: For the women who don’t believe it’s going to happen to them. A common, what I call, dirty divorce trick is spousal starvation, and suddenly he reroutes that paycheck. Now you don’t have gas and groceries. What are you going to do? I hope your husband is a nice guy and negotiates fairly throughout, but what harm would it do if we had a little emergency savings account? What would it hurt if you took a few steps to protect you just in case? Anne: Yeah, because as you start getting healthier and setting boundaries. They will either improve, and they’re going to get it, or they’re going to get worse. But it’s not going to stay the same. Debra: It’ll change one way or the other. Either they will have a sense of guilt, remorse and empathy. Or, like I said, that sense of entitlement will come bubbling to the surface, and suddenly it becomes their money. And how dare you? So we just ask the what if questions. You’ve had a friend that went through a bad divorce. What if your husband did that? Maybe take a few baby steps to protect yourself. How To Financially Prepare For Divorce Debra: In this day and age, it seems like betrayal is rampant. Sometimes it’s financial betrayal. And sometimes they actually don’t know for sure. They don’t have any proof, but a wife knows the truth. She may not know the facts, but she knows the truth. When you’re with an emotional abuser, there’s often financial abuse involved. So women may not have access to information about their marital finances. That makes it hard to get started if you don’t even know what’s on the table to be divided. If you don’t have access to your own money. So that makes things really hard. Often the abuse will still keep her in a one-down position. And she still feels like she doesn’t have the power and voice to stand up for what she deserves. Anne: To all my listeners, this is important. They’re going to get mad no matter what. So please don’t make decisions thinking, okay, he’s going to get mad if I do this. So I’m not going to do it to avoid making him mad. He’s going to be mad, no matter what. So just do whatever you want. That’s very, very important. Because so many women are trying to stop the abuse by doing what he wants. And that is not going to happen. Debra: Not at all. Not at all. Women in abusive situations need to start creating this exit strategy in stealth mode. So that when he gets crazy, she’s at least got a few things in place. So she has copies of financial documents in a safe space, because they disappear. She’s got some money set aside because money disappears. Those kinds of things. How To ThrivE After Divorce Debra: There are no winners in divorce. So everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get what they wanted. One thing I see often with betrayed women is expecting the court system to mete out emotional justice. He cheated on me, so why do I have to do with less? Why do I have to live in a small apartment? Why do I have to drive a used car? Whatever the what if is or why. And unless it’s something really egregious that’s going to shock the court, there’s no emotional justice. What we want to come away from a divorce with is a settlement where we made intentional decisions. And that we can feel good about. So we had all the information we needed, and every choice was intentional. Sometimes you will give up something that you were entitled to in order to get something else. And that’s okay, as long as it was an intentional decision as you prepare for divorce. So we just don’t want to come away feeling like we were missing information or a victim. Because what that does, and you’ll get this, it impacts their ability to recover from it afterwards. Divorce can be a bump in the road. It doesn’t have to be your destination. And so the more empowered you feel during the process, even though crappy things are happening, and he’s mean and unfair. And you may not get everything you want. If you can feel like you were informed you’re going to recover and move through that healing phase so much faster. Anne: Yeah. that’s the point of the Living Free Workshop. How To Prepare For Divorce Emotionally Anne: On our BTR Team, our coaches are betrayal trauma coaches. They’re also certified divorce coaches, so they can walk you through this and help you implement the Living Free strategies. They can help you prepare and stealth mode. Like she was talking about. The other thing our coaches do is help you work through those emotions. Debra: Yeah, when we talk about preparing for divorce, I talk about two people you need on your team. And that’s, I call a BFF backup. This is the person you can call at three in the morning, who can pick your kids up from school. Who knows what you’re thinking before you do. When they say, how are you? And you say, I’m okay. They go, no, you’re not. So you need a BFF backup and a taskmaster. Your taskmaster friend is someone who might not sit with their arm around you, but there’s someone who will research attorneys for you. We’ll do all the real estate legwork. We’ll go to the grocery for you. Someone who will do the things that you’re too emotionally crippled to even deal with. And then you need a safe place to share and be real. Because emotional regulation is key during this process, and by regulating or managing your emotions, I don’t mean stuffing them. What I mean is having some place safe with a coach, a super healthy friend or family member to get that stuff out. So that you can be strategic in your planning, and you want to have a safe place to get those emotions out. And then you also want to get the affirmation that what you’re feeling is normal as you prepare for divorce. Preparation For Divorce​ makes A Huge Difference Debra: Women say, I can’t remember where my keys are. I’m crying all the time. Of course you are. Of course, you feel that way. Look at what you’re going through. In divorce care, they tell you that sometimes, I think 80 percent of your brain can be occupied with thoughts about divorce. If you think about a computer, 80 percent of your computer’s RAM is busy processing thoughts about the divorce. And only 20 percent is available for your daily living. Of course, you’re going to forget your keys. Anne: Here are two concrete examples. I wasn’t able to read written instructions well. And so I asked a friend whose daughter was in my son’s preschool at the time. My son and her daughter were going to the same preschool, and we would get these emails or texts about what was happening. I couldn’t process them. I would try. I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, something about a hat. You know, I couldn’t figure it out. And so I asked her, I said, I can’t process written information in these emails and texts. So keep this in mind when your preparing for divorce. If something is important, will you please call me or send a text and say, send him in a hat like the simplest text possible? Just one thing, so I didn’t have to read the explanation or whatever, and she was happy to do that for me. And so she would call or send me a very simple text. Now, a lot of people don’t have a friend like that, but I think they can develop a friend like that. Help With Divorce Paperwork Anne: There might be someone who goes to church with you, someone in your neighborhood, another woman maybe who has been through it, who you didn’t realize who could help you out. It’s scary to ask, but I have found that a lot of people say yes. I think the scariest part is actually asking. Debra: It is. People will tell you, if you need anything, let me know. But they don’t know what you need. But they really do want to help. If you have a leaking faucet, someone wants to fix it for you. Someone wants to help you go over your documents. Someone wants to help you do those things. They don’t say that out of routine or ritual. They want to help. Because they just don’t know what you need. Anne: I think another traumatic situation here is the person who used to fix your faucet. And the person who helped you with your legal documents is your husband. There’s this other element of I need help, and the person who is helping me isn’t here, and what do I do? I’m alone! Like, he used to fix the faucet. That is also really traumatic through this time. Debra: It is because for your support, you need a coach, an attorney, a financial person. But you need to think ahead, so that you can keep yourself more centered and stable. Anne: This is why you need all these people in your corner. Because you’re rightfully and normally reacting to a really, really hard situation when you’re preparing for divorce. Debra: Exactly, it’s normal. Of course you are. Let’s get you set up for success. Make Self-care a Priority When Filing For Divorce​ Anne: Because if you say you should be able to handle this, why can’t you read? Why can’t you blah, blah, blah. You’re just going to get more and more depressed and overwhelmed. Debra: Right, yeah. Just to know that it’s normal. There are things you’re going to have trouble with. So how can we put measures in place to fill those gaps until you’re ready? And it might be a month, and it might be six months, but let’s think through who can help you. And that’s one of the things your taskmaster can do. Your taskmaster can find other people. Well, who can fix my faucet? Who can cut my grass? Who can do these things? Your taskmaster friend can do that. Anne: What do you believe are the most important things for listeners facing a high conflict divorce to know ahead of time? Debra: First of all, self care. When we’re going through a stressful time, one of our first tendencies is to cut back on self care. Because we have our normal life. Plus, now I have to fit in attorney appointments and financial appointments. And like I’ve added to my daily stress. And so we tend to cut back on self care, but what you need to do is double it. Because especially if you were in an abusive marriage, you developed coping mechanisms to get through the day with that partner. Those aren’t going to work anymore during divorce, so you have to make sure your tank is full. So increasing self care is important. We talked about safe people and a support team. You cannot do divorce alone. It’s too hard. You’re too traumatized. So get the right people around you as you prepare for divorce. Using Social Media During A Divorce Debra: Work on regulating your emotions so that you can make strategic decisions. Get the right help to process them. Vent to safe people. Because you want to make decisions you feel good about. Again, you may not get everything you want, but you at least want to feel empowered and informed. Shut down your social media. Block everyone he’s friends with. If his family supports him, block them, unfriend them. Don’t post anything. Live like a nun, especially if you’re going to be in a custody battle. Anne: I could not agree more. I deleted all my social media accounts, and I would highly recommend that for people. Debra: Don’t be out at a concert with a cocktail in your hand. Just don’t do it. Even though it’s fun and you want to show your friends that you went to the Jimmy Buffett concert, don’t do it. And then be careful of Switzerland friends. Those are people, they love both of you. He’s a great guy. We just want to be friends with both of you. No, absolutely not. And you don’t have to be cold or cruel about it, but take a step back. If you run in the same circles and you’re around them, just be very cautious what you say. Don’t discuss your divorce. Don’t discuss your partner. We talked about Switzerland friends, shutting down your social media, those kind of things. If you don’t keep control of yourself and what you say and do, it could be used against you. So it can hurt your case. If you’re preparing for divorce you need to keep this in mine, if you act out or send that email or send that text. Those things could be used against you. So it’s not in your best interest. How To Mentally Prepare For A Divorce Debra: Other people can get hurt when you’re not managing your emotions, and specifically your children. It’s the hardest thing to model healthy behavior to your children while you’re under this stress. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. Yet it’s the most important thing. And then finally, and you talked about this, we can’t make good decisions when we’re crying, and we can’t think about it. And our brain isn’t working right. So being able to maintain that sense of calm and clarity and focus on our purpose. Focus on the end game instead of living in the moment. Is critical to making good decisions as you prepare for divorce. Anne: Did you watch Marriage Story? Debra: I did. The emotion of it didn’t surprise me, the hurt, you know, the pain, the anger. What surprised me was how realistic their portrayal was of how our legal system creates litigious situations. When they don’t have to be. Anne: It was interesting that he had an affair, so there’s a betrayal. I listened to Pop Culture Happy Hour. They reviewed it, and they were like, this is a situation where you’ve got a nice man and a nice woman, and this is how divorce goes. They didn’t weigh the betrayal at all. It carried no weight in terms of fault. Instead, they focused on the idea that the couple had grown apart or weren’t really compatible. And I thought this is why so many women feel so betrayed in general. Because society in general doesn’t understand this. Although it showed the legal system well, I don’t think it got to the heart of the cause. Preparing For Divorce: Common Themes Debra: I agree. They glossed over the betrayal, and I think that’s just so indicative of culture. Culture says, eh, no big deal. Or culture says, well, you know, she wasn’t sleeping with him, so what’s a guy supposed to do? That patriarchal attitude is still so prevalent in society that nobody blinked at that. Anne: I know, I thought the part where her attorney, Nora, said you have to be perfect, and he doesn’t have to be perfect. It was so spot on. Debra: Spot on, the judges need to hear what they want to hear, and see. This is important as you prepare for the divorce, the judges and magistrates are looking for something from you, and you better present it. Anne: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s so traumatic. There are so many reasons why divorce is so traumatic that it just overwhelms your brain, you know? Debra: There are so many reasons, and they’re always individual. But there are three common themes: money, kids, and conflict. So often, women have been kept out of the loop in terms of finances, or stay at home moms or lower earners. And they’re worried, can they support themselves? They’re often worried about the impact this will have on their children. And they’re worried about the conflict, because we know that when we’re married to abusers, they don’t like to be told no. Sometimes you have to pick your hard when we’re on the fence, and work through that decision. Because it’s also hard to stay married to an abuser. The Right Support When Preparing For Divorce Anne: The thing that so many women appreciate about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services is that our goal is to give women information. And then to validate and support them. So there’s never going to be a time when someone comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where we say you have to get divorced. We give women the education they need, give them their options, and then help them assess what’s right for them. Can you talk about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches support women through making their own decisions? Debra: The first thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach will do is help a woman seek peace and safety. So helping them observe their partner’s patterns of behavior, helping them set the boundaries they need. And determining if they need to set the next boundary, the next boundary, and the next boundary. So when the boundaries aren’t working and they have to set tighter or stronger boundaries, that’s when we start to see separation or financial separation or start to take those bigger steps. And so when they get to that point, that’s when the word divorce starts coming up in their mind and they start thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this will have to be the next step I take. So you can pray your husband recovers. And simultaneously, get yourself knowledgeable about what it would look like if I took this other path toward divorce. And for many women, we go back and forth for a long time. When I prepare divorce, how will I know when it’s time to go? How To Prepare For Divorce As A Woman Debra: You will have a crystalline moment of clarity. There comes for most women, a time when the heavens open up, a spotlight shines down, and you know, today’s the day. When that happens for you, when you have that moment of clarity, I want you to be ready and not afraid. So if we have all this information, you will be prepared for what divorce will look like, and you know what you’re stepping into. When the heavens open and the spotlight shines on you, and you know today’s the day, you’ll simply nod your head and say, okay. I’m not scared. Anne: And that day might never come. Debra: It might never. It might be next week, a year from now or it might never come. But if it does, you’ll be ready. Anne: There are so many things that those who have gone through divorce wish we had known long before we even started considering it. Because it would have helped prepare us. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like I said before, our coaches are certified divorce coaches. They can help women anticipate things, and women can get assistance through group sessions or individual sessions. Can you talk about the difference between group and individual sessions here at BTR? The BTR Team Can Help You Prepare For Divorce Debra: Sure, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group is where you can get help tackling a particular high level issue. For instance, can you give me a few tips on how to talk to a six year old about this? And so, in three or four minutes, a BTR coach might give a couple of high level tips about age appropriate conversation, great. In an individual session, they can look at your finances. Look at your budget. Talk through a strategy to get back to work. They can help you make negotiation decisions, get into the meat of it. Talk about how to pick the right attorney for your case, who else you might need on your team. Like, they can dive into the details of your particular situation that probably aren’t appropriate for group. And so you can get really individual stuff there in order to prepare for divorce. It makes a big difference to actually look at your spreadsheets and numbers, especially if you haven’t been involved in your finances. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions can educate you about some of that. Anne: Exactly, and some of that’s kind of DIY in the Living Free Workshop, or if you need help implementing those strategies, you can do Group or Individual Sessions. So, if a woman is listening and she thinks divorce might be in her future, what are some of the first steps that she should take? Debra: The first thing I want to say is what you shouldn’t do. Please do not tell your spouse. I don’t want you to put that out there until you can get educated about it in the workshop. Just make sure you aren’t deciding not to divorce, because a fear that’s not rooted in truth is standing in your way. Here’s How To Financially Prepare For Divorce​ Debra: A woman who lived in the San Francisco Bay area where it’s expensive. She thought I can never ever afford to leave. There’s no way. I’m miserable, I want to leave, but I can’t afford to. And when she looked at the numbers, her budget was only short a thousand dollars a month. Then she thought, I can find a way to earn two hundred and fifty dollars a week. So is that fear holding you back? Make sure it’s not a false fear that’s holding you back. I’m not trying to get you to decide, I just want you to have truth. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s all about truth. All truth all the time. Anne: Yeah, and it’s painful, especially when so many of us come from a religious background. So it feels like maybe “betraying” our husband. I’m going to say that in quotes, because obviously we’re not, because he betrayed us. Also in so many ways it feels like we’re betraying God. Debra: So that’s another one of those fears. Decide to face our fears. See if they’re real. Because regardless of the conflict and regardless of the parenting. For the most part, divorce is breaking a legal contract about money. That’s what many decisions will be about. That’s what the law is written about. So, understand the money involved as your preparing for divorce. Do you have access to your tax returns, your husband’s pay stub, or W 2? Do you know how much is in your retirement account? How much your house is worth? What’s the balance on your mortgage? Do you know what your monthly expenses are? It’s good to have the financial information before you consult with an attorney, so that an attorney can estimate of spousal support and child support. How To Tell Your Husband You Want A Divorce Debra: That’s what we need to help fill in our budget. If one of your fears is, well, I’ve been a stay at home mom, I don’t think I can support myself. Well, then the income line in your budget will be mostly child support and spousal support. So that’s important information to know. So gather some of the financials before you consult with an attorney. That way, that meeting will be much more productive for you. Anne: If a woman decides she wants to divorce, she’s prepared. She’s worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. She’s done everything she needs to do, and she’s ready to do it. When is the right time to tell her husband that she wants a divorce? Debra: You are an expert on your husband. One of the preparation steps, and you’ll go through this in the workshop, is setting up a bank account. And making sure you have emergency funds, because a dirty divorce trick abusers like to play is move their paycheck and not give you access to any money. So if you think that’s the case, you tell him the same day you file the paperwork. Anne: So many women in our community, me included, did not think our husband was like that. And then we found out that he is like this. It was shocking to us during the divorce process. Like in my case, he shut down our bank account. And really, the abuse starts to be very overt. Where perhaps, before it was covert. For me, it was shocking and upsetting, but it was also like, I guess, I made the right decision. When Can You File For Divorce? Debra: It’s confirmation, yeah. Anne: Yeah, because it was like, whoa, when divorcing an abusive husband, he’s getting more and more deliberate and harmful through this, not less. And it will hurt you, but you can also think, Oh, okay, this is another sign that I’m making the right decision. Debra: We, as women, have such a tendency to wait until the bullets start flying before we put on our armor. And I want women in abusive relationships to know, if he says, don’t worry, I’m going to be fair. Don’t worry, I’ll always take care of you and the kids. If this is a person who’s been deceiving you for a decade, I’m not sure we should take that statement at face value. Let’s prepare for divorce and assume it’s not true. And if it turns out that he negotiates in good faith and takes care of you, that’ll be a bonus. Anne: Because this is someone who looked you straight in the eye and said, of course, I’m faithful to my marriage vows and had an affair. Debra: Let’s just make sure we have on our Kevlar vest just in case. So the best time to tell him is when it’s done. This is another thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach can help with is preparing you for that conversation. One alternative is not to have the conversation. If you are already separated, you can simply file and have him served. If you want to have the conversation, the conversation is very simple. It’s, this is a decision I’ve made, it’s what I need to do for me. What Happens When You File For Divorce​ Debra: When he rails against it, you can say, I hear you’re mad, I hear you’re upset, I hear this isn’t the way you wanted it to go. This is the decision I’ve made for me. He’s gonna throw accusations at you, and you don’t need to defend yourself. You don’t need to explain why you chose to do it. Or you don’t have to tell him all the ways he hurt you. You simply repeat, this is a decision I felt like I needed to make. Anne: Yeah, because as I explained in the Living Free Workshop, if you try to explain it, or you’re hoping somehow, you can get some resolution with an emotional abuser like this. It’s not going to go that way. He’s going to use it to abuse you more. Debra: Correct, we don’t mention divorce when we prepare until we are doing it. It is never a threat. It’s never an incentive. It’s never a punishment. So, this conversation is only a notification conversation. Then he may throw declarations, you’ll never get a penny, you’ll never see the children, I’m getting full custody, you’ll be homeless. Whatever these declarations are, my best response is to say, we’ll see, that’s it. This is not a time where you’re going to negotiate, don’t fight back, don’t explain, you simply say, this is a decision that I feel like I need to make. If he throws those accusations or declarations out, you simply say, we’ll see, and that’s it. that’s the end of the conversation. Anne: Yep, I learned the hard way, which was why I was so passionate about writing the Living Free Workshop. Because I didn’t want any other woman to learn the hard way. The Best Preparation For Divorce: The Living Free Workshop Anne: But I totally get it. If you’re listening and you’re like. I don’t want to do the Living Free Workshop. I’m not interested in learning about this. I get it. Because I was there for a long time too. In my own experience, I just wish I had known what I know now. That’s all. And that’s why I want to share it with you. Especially because the strategies in the Living Free Workshop feel so counterintuitive. It’s not like anything a therapist will tell you or anybody else. It’s completely different. Debra: Yes. Anne: Can you go deeper about why it’s important to work with someone who understands this abuse dynamic when they’re getting a divorce. Instead of just getting support from like a regular therapist, or even trying to get emotional support from your attorney or sister? Debra: I just demonstrated one of them, helping you plan for that conversation so that it goes well and you can stay as safe as possible in that conversation. If you let your emotions, or your amygdala, your fight, flight, or freeze, reflex, drive what you’re doing in the divorce. You won’t fare as well. If a coach can keep you calm and emotionally regulated, so that you can make informed strategic decisions. You will do a lot better emotionally, financially and relationally. You’ll be a better mom through the process. You’ll help your kids navigate the process better. Your attorney is not an expert on the emotions in divorce. They’re an expert in the legal process. Anne: Many women want to talk to their attorney a lot, getting validation from their attorney. Or even want their attorney to be their therapist, which is an expensive way to go. How To Start Preparing for divorce Anne: The Living Free Workshop and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group are much less expensive than an attorney’s hourly fee. Debra: And they’re better at it. Anne: Yeah. Debra: Just to say that. They’re better at supporting women in trauma when they prepare for divorce. An attorney is not skilled at it, trained at it, and they haven’t been through it. Anne: Don’t look to your attorney for emotional support or validation or anything like that. It’s not what they’re trained to do, and it will be frustrating and extremely expensive. Debra: And they won’t help you be a better mom, stay grounded, and make the best decisions for you. They’ll tell you what the law says about how it works. Mediation can be a decent choice, but you have to be prepared for that. And you need someone strong in your corner helping you prepare for mediation. Anne: To get more information about the Living Free Workshop, click this link. It’s amazing. It’s helpful. You also need support. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions are all about. Group sessions you can get in every day. It’s an amazing resource. So thanks for your help today. Debra. Debra: I love it. I love it. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is an amazing organization. it’s what I wish I’d had. Anne: Yeah, me too.

Are you seeing things in your marriage or a relationship that feel a little intense or puzzling…and you’re not sure if they’re normal or actually signs of a toxic relationship? If so, it’s important to pause and look at the pieces of the puzzle together to see what they might be telling you. To discover if you’re in a toxic relationship take our free emotional abuse test. Here are five things that might seem “normal,” but aren’t: SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE EASY TO MISS 1. HE WANTS TO MOVE THE RELATIONSHIP FORWARD QUICKLY When you’re in a relationship with someone who seemingly shares and cares about your values and interests, it’s easy to be swept up by the intensity of it all. Especially if the relationship seems to happen at the “right” time, and things move forward quickly. But this level of intensity and pace doesn’t give you time to slow down and really think about why you seem so compatible. 2. HE WANTS CONSTANT ACCESS TO YOU, BUT HE’S CLOSED OFF It might seem caring for your husband to be curious about your life and daily activities. But if he’s constantly calling or texting, and questioning you about your whereabouts and who you’re with, while withholding those same details about his life from you, you’re not in a reciprocal relationship. His “curiosity” or suspicion, is most likely stemming from his own toxic patterns of behavior. 3. HIS MOODS SHIFT SUDDENLY AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHY Think about it…in healthy relationships, partners are usually aware of the reasons why one partner isn’t in a good mood. They typically communicate about bad days at work or when they’re not feeling well. But in toxic relationships, that level of trust and communication often isn’t there, because one partner doesn’t want it to be. Everything’s fine, until it’s not, and then, it suddenly is again…And you’re left trying to figure out what changed. 4. HE‘S UPSET OVER SMALL THINGS Things that don’t seem like a big deal, suddenly are signs of a toxic relationship. For example, you miss a turn on the way to his best friend’s birthday party… and suddenly it’s not about directions anymore. He’s accusing you of being disrespectful, or doing it on purpose because you don’t want to go. Or you might simply ask him to help with the groceries, and suddenly he’s angry because, “you don’t respect his time and all the things he has to do.” 5. HE’S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON IN PUBLIC Around friends, he’s calm, kind, helpful, fun-loving, and completely attentive. In counseling, he appears thoughtful, and sincere about working on the relationship. He says all the right things. He wants to understand. But when you’re alone again, his warmth and willingness to do the work or even understand the issues disappears. And now you’re left dealing with that and the isolation that comes from knowing that everyone on the outside sees him as a “great guy.” If you relate and you need support, we’re always online to help you. Go to btr.org/group/ to see my daily support group schedule. TRANSCRIPT: EARLY SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND Anne:  I did an interview with a member of our community. We’re going to call her Iris, She talked about how his toxic patterns showed up in her marriage and what happened when she started using the strategies she learned in my workshop. Here’s that interview. Welcome, Iris.  Iris: Thank you. Glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning of your story. Can you talk about how you felt when you first met your husband? Iris: He was very charming, and he seemed extremely sincere. Now I understand that he was love bombing me and was trying to make things go fast. It was very intense. And he preyed upon me at a time when I was really ready to get married and have kids. Everybody was getting married and having kids. So he went right for what was the most vulnerable part of me. And we met through a young adult single thing in our group. He proceeded to be very attentive. Anne: When you say young adult, single thing, that sounds a little bit like my faith. What’s your faith background? Iris: it’s the Catholic church. It’s actually Theology on Tap, which is at a brew pub, and you can buy a drink and mingle. And then they have a speaker. Anne: Kind of Matt Fraddish. Iris: Yes. Anne: I actually know Matt Fradd in real life. Iris: And I don’t go to the Catholic church anymore. But that was a huge part of our marriage and, we were really in a circle of pretty devout people. Which also I think contributed to my willingness to submit to him. Anne: When you say submit, can you talk about that a little bit more? EARLY CONTROL DISGUISED AS CARE AND SHARED VALUES Iris: Hindsight, there were red flags before we married. There were early signs of coercive control. It dates me, but cell phones weren’t the norm yet. And he bought me a cell phone so he could reach me more easily. He was pretty volatile. He asked me to marry him within a month or two and I deferred and we dated longer, but he was just intense. Then he would be very sorry. He would cold shoulder me at points. He’d be angry for things that were weird, wasn’t very flexible. Now I know these were signs of a toxic relationship. We went through nine months of marriage prep. So many Christian circles focus on the idea that the man is the head. I saw that in my parents’ marriage too. My dad made all the decisions. My mom was independent in some ways, but she still did what he wanted. I think I expected marriage to look like that. The husband leads and the wife follows. Even though I was independent, had a master’s degree, was over 30, and had traveled, I still lived in a huge Christian community where that model of marriage was everywhere. NOT RECOGNIZING SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: And you just mentioned nobody actually says that, but they actually do say that, it might not be in so many words. It might not be so directly, but they like actually say it. And if you call ’em out and say, “Hey, you said this.” They usually deny it. “Of course, I didn’t say that.” And you’re like, “What? You did.” That’s the part that’s really confusing. The therapists come in or the clergy comes in, or the friends and family, and they gaslight you too. It’s like, “You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that.” Especially when they find out what he is really like, and you’re like, “What?” “You told me this.” “Well, I never did.” And they for sure did. It’s almost like no matter what you do, you can’t win. There are friends of mine and maybe friends of yours too, who are amazing and they’re like, “Oh my word, I said the wrong thing.” That is so validating. I feel like when I meet people like that, it’s easy to be like, “It’s okay did the ‘wrong thing’ too. I was doing the best I could and I didn’t know that he was abusive. And I didn’t know what was happening, and didn’t recognize signs of a toxic relationship. So I can’t blame you either.” But, for the other people who continue to not believe us and deny that they said or did certain things. ‘That’s harder. Cause it becomes this almost group of unhealthy people that you’re dealing with, rather than just the one unhealthy person. Iris: Right. Signs of a Toxic Relationship: The Sudden Switch After Marriage Anne: Did you end up going to couple therapy? Iris: In the Catholic Church you do Pre-Cana, which is pre-marriage counseling, and they saw some things that were concerning. He was very intent that he could change things. They would categorize it like how we were different. I think she said to me, “Life might always be kind of hard for him.” ‘Cause that’s what she was seeing.. He works very hard, so he seems very sincere. And he met with the man in the couple we met with. And read books and was very sincere. They said to us, “Oh, we’ve never seen somebody work so hard to try to improve themselves so that they’re ready for a marriage.” He impressed them, and I remember feeling exhausted by that point. And it was a mask. I now know that these were signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: Like you shouldn’t have to work that hard. to be normal. They are hard workers, because it would be very hard to pretend all the time. Iris: Right, and that’s how he lives. He has a mask all the time. We had this huge Catholic wedding, like an hour and 20 minute long mass. And it was that night the switch flipped. And he was angry. He cold shouldered me. We’d waited till our wedding night, and he said things that were incredibly humiliating. Seeing THE SAME SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP IN OTHER WOMEN’S STORIES Iris: Then the next morning he would hardly talk to me. And we left the beautiful hotel. We were to go to a morning brunch at my parents, with guests who were from outta town and our families. And he was furious because people had decorated our car. And he had to stop at a car wash to rinse everything off before we even got to the wedding brunch. Anne: I used this story in my book. Iris: You did? Anne: Yes, this story. Someone else had the same story. Iris: Isn’t that amazing? Like how these Chucks do the same thing to us and have all the same signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: ‘ Like Twilight Zone. Cause you never gave me that story. Iris: isn’t that amazing? I feel like that in group a lot. I’m like, “Oh, that happened to me.” Anne: BTR has been like me trying to fit all the pieces together. And as I’ve tried to fit all the pieces together, things became very clear. And I’ve become very good at seeing in the dark. So this piece of the puzzle I was trying to get it to fit. Like why did he do that? I’ve never met you before, but I spent a lot of time piecing just this piece. With the other pieces that I had of other people’s stories to say, what was this about? I’ve spent so much time with this story in my brain and what it meant. I’m like, holy cow. Iris: Thank you. Thank you for somewhere to tell it, because it was something that felt so shameful for such a long time, rejected, and humiliated. RECOGNIZING THE PATTERNS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE PARTNERS Iris: So we went to that wedding brunch, and I knew he was on edge the whole time. Other people didn’t necessarily see that. We got back to the house we were making our home together, which was his house. And he was angry, he didn’t want to go on our honeymoon, but I was like, I’ve been planning a wedding. All I have been thinking of is being able to go rest on a beach. So he agreed to go, and it was a really a horrible week. He was just fighting. His anger and unreasonableness, were more signs of a toxic relationship. It’s so hard, because he can make it feel like I’m also participating. We finally came home after the week, and at several points I thought maybe I should just fly home,’because it was awful. How would I even ask somebody to come and pick me up? What would I say? What would I do? Feeling so humiliated, like we had this big wedding, we’d done all this preparation, so we finally came home and I remember the first morning after we’d gotten home. He got up, he didn’t even talk to me. He grabbed his mountain bike, and he went mountain biking all day. That was a pattern that repeats throughout our marriage, where he just does his own, yeah. Anne: I had a mountain biking all day incident as well that I wrote about in my book. All of a sudden I’m like, what is happening? This is Twilight Zone, yes. Iris: No way. The Chucks, it’s the Chuck thing, which has been the most powerful thing to learn. WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT RESPONSES Anne: Surreal that they’re all the same. I think that’s one of the powerful things about our group sessions is that the women are so different. We all react differently and we’re all doing the right thing. Because all of our personalities are different. So some of us want to protect ourselves by being quiet and sitting back and that’s the right thing for us. Some of us want to fight the guy, because that’s how our personality is. But they do all the same things. It doesn’t seem the same, because we haven’t acted the same. And I think the thing that like really helps it all come together is when you realize they’re so transactional. That they’re going to manipulate you in whatever way works for you, all signs of a toxic relationship. So if you’ve been trying to protect yourself in a certain way, they’ve been countering your protection methods in a certain way. And then when you change up the way you’re trying to protect yourself, they almost become like a different person. But they’ve been that same exact person the whole time. It’s just that they’re so transactional that they’re like, oh, that’s not working anymore. I have to do this other thing. And this whole new set of problems comes out so they can be super, super nice or super aggressive. But the whole time, it’s manipulation and lies. Did he ever go through a time where he seemed like he was really great? WHEN PREGNANCY AND BAD ADVICE KEEP YOU STUCK WITH SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: I got pregnant right away, so I probably would’ve left, but then I was pregnant and trying to navigate that. When I found out I was pregnant with my first baby, I went to therapy right away, and that therapist just didn’t have the skills to recognize an emotional cycle of abuse and really gaslit me. Then got pregnant again when my daughter was nine months old. So I had two babies, under 18 months old. That was another thing. In my faith, that I grew up with, you’re supposed to accept all babies. That was something that really kept me trapped. I knew once I was pregnant that I would always have to be linked to him. And that was incredibly devastating and terrifying. I think the Christian, and I’m going to say trope, I don’t want to make fun of anybody, but the trope of marriage that you just have to work hard enough and it will all be fine. That really was so damaging when signs of a toxic relationship are present. He did tell me early in our marriage that he had struggled with porn. He did the Every Man’s Battle stuff and everything like that. Also he confided in me that he’d used some at work. He has a security clearance and was about to be interviewed with a, polygraph. He was afraid they would ask him something like that. At the time, he was abusive our whole marriage, but it was the most intense. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand that. It was disturbing, it made me feel awful. But I didn’t have any brain space to process what to do with that. He downloaded it on me to get it off his chest. HE WAS Emotionally ABUSIVE ALL OF THE TIME Iris: After my second baby was born, he was probably seven months old, I tried to leave to go to a mom’s group. My ex-husband was angry with me because of my daughter, who’s my older one. I was working on potty training her. And I let her wear pants without underwear. She pooped and he was furious. He came up behind me in the bathroom and pushed me against the counter and said, “Next time, make sure she wears underwear.” So he was abusive all of the time, disrupted my sleep, and would wake me up in the night angry if I coughed. I had to sleep on 18 inches of the bed or less, without moving to not anger him. The reaction I had was to kick him to get him to back up. That’s when he grabbed me by the throat and started to strangle me. And I know now, but I felt terrible later. All I wanted to do was leave. I got my coat and I got in the car and I left. My children were still in the house with him. I just wanted to get away. I went to the mom’s group like everything was fine. But I was dissociated and in trauma. I had gone to my therapist then within a day or two and just poured everything out. And her response was, other women have it worse. And I was so humiliated, like feeling somehow I had caused this. Even though like I knew, I have education. I was in my thirties, I knew that wasn’t right. But the abuse had taken so much of my strength. That kept me so trapped for so long. It made it harder to open up. Therapists aren’t equipped to see signs of a toxic relationship Iris: And we went to so many marriage therapists, who just aren’t equipped. Because Chuck is charming, and they just don’t understand the dynamic except for one therapist who we did not go back to. They didn’t see the signs of a toxiC relationship. But she was crazy. So we went in, it was this dilapidated house. She was far back in the house. The door was open. We went in and sat down. Literally a dog with sores and the cone of shame came out, and she was like, I’ll be right there. Chuck was like, so wigged out. She came out and talked to us for a little while. She also had paranoid notes tacked up on her wall. Anyway, she talks to us for a little while, and Chuck is so wigged out, so Chuck is walking out. And before we leave she says, I want to give you something. And she hands me a page, and it has books on it. So I went home and ordered it, and then it came and I didn’t read it, like I couldn’t read it. I didn’t read it for the longest time, because it was just so painful. But that was the only therapist who saw the signs of a toxic relationship. And then I found out the next week she lost her license, in the newspaper. Anyway, she was the only one who saw the abuse and handed me a key. Anne: So she handed you a clue. When His “I Choose You” Doesn’t Add Up Iris: A clue, and she was right. I had gone to other therapists over the years. I looked just crazy, because I would just cry. One therapist had different offices and I would always go to the wrong one. because I had no short term working memory available. Chuck disrupted my sleep. I’d be in the shower, he’d bring the baby in screaming and put them on the bath mat and I’d have to get out and take care of the baby. He’d drive angry, the list goes on and on. I just didn’t have the words to explain. We went to a mom’s group event where dads were invited. And he was angry at me the whole time, but only I knew that. And then I had to get in the car and drive home with him. So it was really intense. And then at about the seven year mark, he decided that marriage worked for him. It was such a delight, such a relief to have him gone for two weeks. He came home from a business trip. And he said, “I realized it’s been you the whole time. You’re really the one that I want to be married to.” Anne: Oh Iris: Right. Anne: Wait, he was having an affair. Iris: I don’t know. Anne: That sounds like something someone would say if they just broke up with someone. Because they’re like trying to choose between the person they’re having an affair with. In my book, I put the pieces together. FROM THE DAY WE GOT MARRIED, THERE WERE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: After interviewing over 200 women and hearing their stories. I’m pretty good at knowing what happened. I think in this situation, he’s having an affair and she breaks up with him. He’s feeling bummed about it. He might say out loud to you, I decided I want to be with you. Iris: Mm hmm Anne: You don’t have the context of the affair, of him breaking up with her. So this really weird out of the blue statement, “I’ve decided I want to be married to you.” When he’s been married to you for seven years is odd. It also feels like a relief, “Oh, maybe he just didn’t want to be married to me before, and now he’s choosing me.” But you don’t realize what a weird out of place thing that is, because he makes you feel better in that moment. I don’t know if that rings true to you, but it seems that would be the order of events that would precipitate out of the blue, telling you, “Oh, I’m choosing you now.” Iris: Yeah, it didn’t make me feel better, because from the day we got married, he was horrible. it was awful. Anne: So you’re like, great. Now this awful person really wants to be married to me. Iris: It felt like a lie. Now that I understand how Chuck works, like there was something he wanted, he didn’t really love me. Somebody who really loved me and realized they were wrong would’ve not said that. I think they would’ve said, ” I’ve been horrible. I can see why you wouldn’t even want to be married to me, but I realized I really want to be married to you. They would’ve said something to try to heal that. Anne: Some effort to repair. Seeing the Patterns and Signs of a Toxic Relationship Anne: Instead it was more signs of a toxic relationship. Iris: I think so. And I think that’s why it felt awful. Because he manipulated me. Which I don’t think I could verbalize at that time, but he manipulated again. Anne: Were you about to leave at that time? Was there anything about you that was different? Iris: He knew that I was unhappy, but he was abusive all of the time, yeah. Anne: Did you ever find out about explicit media use? Iris: He told me, in hindsight, he’d invited a single woman that he’d never met to our wedding. Which was weird. It was a last minute thing, and I feel like she was probably a backup. Anne: You’ve said three stories now that sound exactly like other stories. I have heard this before. Your story includes all the classic, down to the detail. Iris: Wow Anne: Of inviting someone else to the wedding. Iris: The Chuckness of it. Anne: You got a winner. Iris: He’s a doozy. He told me later that he didn’t actually want to get married. Then when I look at inviting this woman to the wedding, he didn’t admit that for many years. But when he did, I was like, oh, so she must have been the escape hatch. If he didn’t go through with marrying me, he would’ve had someone in the wings. FEELING HELPLESS Iris: I suspect he continues to use porn. He is in cybersecurity, and he always had three computers in his office. So I wonder if one of those he used. I don’t know. I’ve always been curious about what that was. I don’t think I was as tuned into that until I was leaving the marriage. And then there wasn’t much that I had access to. There wasn’t anybody that seemed to have that language who I could talk to. I just felt really helpless, and he was very manipulative and very controlling, the love bombing, he is very good at. The other part was that I was super reactive at that point. So I felt very guilty about my responses to his behavior. Even though it was less intense and further apart. But the reality is that those first seven years, in the bedroom, total coercion, marital rape, and everything now that I have words for, had happened. By that point, like there was very little he had to do to make me comply, to try to stay out of his way. I would try to have a separate life, while maintaining that Christian marriage appearance. It took me a long time to see these as signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: We would probably call it like survival mode. You are trying to survive and that’s why a lot of people use the word survivor when they talk about abuse victims, because every day you’re just trying to survive. Why Getting Help Feels So Scary at First Iris: Yeah, daily. Navigate all of the things that are happening that just don’t make any sense. And I don’t have the words for. I think during the pandemic, I started to see your Instagrams. And it was like, oh, that’s what’s happening, those are the words. That’s what this is. And beginning to be able to label things and feel like I’m not alone. Then, wanting to join group, but then being afraid. What if it doesn’t help, I don’t want Chuck to know I’m joining? Just feeling do I really want to do that? because I felt like if I go through that door, I can’t go back. Anne: Can we talk about that for a minute? because a lot of women have told me that. I followed you on Instagram, or I listened to the podcast, and I didn’t start attending group sessions because I knew it would change everything. What is it about BTR that is different in that way? It’s different than maybe therapy or something. Is it because you’re going to finally get help to look at it. Seeing the signs of a toxic relationship can be scary at first. Iris: This can make me cry. I think, because no one had helped. So I think there was an element of, I could try this and probably it’s still not going to help. By that point, looking for help for so long and thinking, I don’t know that anything will help. then being so vulnerable and beaten down. I think there’s a sense of like, does anybody really want to help me? Do I deserve help? because it certainly seems like it’s my fault. So being very afraid to join a group. Like it’s terrifying the first day. BTR FELT LIKE AN ANSWER TO PRAYER Anne: Once you did attend a group session? Were you surprised at what happened? Iris: Yeah, the first day I joined, you hear that zoom beep and you are in group and feeling so afraid. But I was so welcome. it was like I could take a breath, even though really I was crying so hard. Hearing everybody talk, hearing the coaches talk, feeling like the words made sense. I didn’t share that first time, but just crying afterwards. Like there’s somewhere that gets this. There’s somewhere where there are other women who understand this. I’ve never met anybody who knows what’s happening to me. In my story, something that’s amazing was that when my daughter was a baby, there was this show on daytime TV called Starting Over House. It was a reality show for women to go to this house and start over. They had two coaches, and I remember watching these women go, and they had all different kinds of problems that they were trying to grow from or whatever. All I wanted was to take my baby and join that house. It was a reality show. I’m sure it would not have been really super helpful. But I just wanted to have people love on me and help me figure out my marriage. That’s all I wanted. So when I came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group, I’m not kidding you, two of the coaches looked like those two coaches on that show. It just felt like it was a prayer answer. HIS ANGER WAS THERE ALL THE TIME Iris: So Sharon and Renee, two coaches loved on me and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. And helped me to slowly unravel what had been happening and what had happened to me, and find my voice. I joined in the spring, I was already starting to take steps in my marriage to not engage with Chuck. By July, he was angry with me all of the time. Which I’ll come back to in just a minute. But , before I had joined, he had done some really angry driving in the car. He’d been angry one day when I had locked the door to the master bedroom, because I like to pray and meditate. And then I had gotten in the shower without unlocking it. Because I just want privacy from two kids, a dog and a Chuck. He banged on the door for as long as I was in the shower, and I could hardly hear him, but it scared the pants off of my kids. I felt like I didn’t know what to do. When I joined group, I finally started to have some strategies and observe him. Sometimes I forget all the things that happened. Right before I joined in February, he bought a new car and asked for money from his father. Then he came to me and said, “I didn’t spend all the money on the car. I saved some, so either you can go to marriage therapy with me.”, which he’d been threatening, and I didn’t want to go to marriage therapy with him because we’d been many, many times. GROUP HELPED ME SEE THE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: He said, “Either you go to marriage therapy with me, and I’ll buy a car for our daughter, or I’m going to divorce you. Not long after that, I ended up joining group. Then he said, “I used that money to file for divorce. I hired an attorney, and how do you want me to serve you your papers?” At that point, I had enough skill to say you can have me served, thank you. And it was super calm. And then I actually jumped in group and was able to just process. One of the things that was so amazing was that everything happening to me in real time, I could then go in a group, get support, be in my closet, my car, or at the library. The more I went towards health and boundaries, the angrier he got. So he actually continued to ask me for two months how I wanted my divorce papers. I can see how divorce and emotional abuse were intertwined, he was using the threat of divorce to try to control me. I would say, “You can have me served.” And he would say, I don’t want to pay $400. He did that until I got a paper in the mail and I thought that I was being served. I didn’t think I could be served in the mail, which you can’t in my state, but it was actually that they were going to kick it out of the system. I took that paper to an attorney, because I had been interviewing attorneys. That kicked off the divorce process. Because I was served. Anne: That whole time he is asking, “How do you want to be served? And you’re like, “Just serve me.” DEALING WITH CONTROL WHEN HE FILED FOR DIVORCE Anne: He’s trying to get you to do something to stop the divorce. He threatens you—if you don’t toe the line, I’ll divorce you. When you’re like, okay, go ahead and divorce me, then he’s escalating. Using all the tricks and signs of a toxic relationship that worked before. He reminds me of my ex, who said that. Then he didn’t file. Because he thought that would instigate me repairing. Or me doing the thing I was supposed to do. And when I didn’t do it, I don’t think he wanted to file for divorce. It’s just that he couldn’t figure out how to control me anymore. He was like, well, I guess I have to make these things happen. And it sounds the same in this scenario, where he’s trying to get you to do something. Because a normal person, if they’re like, how do you want me to serve you? And you say, oh, just serve me. They’d be like, okay. And they would serve you. Iris: Right, it was control. I was so thankful I could go back in group and have the framework, putting my lab coat on, doing one step at a time. Getting shored up so that I wouldn’t be bowled over by his behavior. I finally hired an attorney, and my attorney notified his attorney. Chuck came to me and said, “Well, that’s not fair. You didn’t tell me you had an attorney. And now we both have to decide to dismiss the divorce. I can’t just decide myself.” Anne: Like not to get divorced? After he’s filed, he’s like, wait. Now that you’ve responded to me serving you with divorce papers, we actually have to get divorced. Iris: Right. Anne: That sounds like my Chuck too. INDIVIDUAL SESSIONS HELPED ME GET READY FOR EACH BIG BATTLE Iris: Really, it’s like they’re all going by the same playbook. I think realizing that these are all the signs of a toxic relationship was huge. And it allowed me to understand that my job was to be strategic. Chuck does a lot of stupid as a strategy. That attorney he hired in July, by the time our status conference was in October, he’d used all of his retainer. Which was $5,000, and nothing had happened yet. Because he is a Chuck and likes to call his attorney to talk. So then right after the status conference, he fired the attorney and then went pro se for a while. I was so thankful that I had BTR, that I could do group. I could do the Betrayal Trauma Recovery individual sessions to get ready for each big barrier or battle with him, so that I went in calm and focused. It really allowed me, in my divorce process to understand that this was the best thing for me. Even though he was trying to control me. It was finally the door out. And he kept coming back to me and asking, “Do you really want a divorce?” And I would say, “You could move out.” But he never would. One of the other things was that understanding that there was going to be so much out of my control and really focusing on what was in my control. In my coaching sessions with Renee and with Sharon, being able to determine what my top priorities were. My priorities weren’t numbers. My priorities were big picture. And then I said, these are the things that are most important and this is what I want to work towards. And it helped me. I feel like things worked out well for me. WE SETTLED AN HOUR BEFORE COURT Iris: So having enough money to restart and go back to school. Having stability for my kids, not selling the house immediately so that my daughter could finish high school. Like those were the big picture things. And because Chuck just wants to fight, it was the 11th hour literally. He hired an attorney again, just weeks before our divorce was final. But we ended up settling like an hour before court. I was able just to hang on, to understand it was going to be like that no matter what I did. Like I didn’t have any control over him, and I really got up that morning not knowing what was going to happen. And being at peace in that, and that I was doing all the things that I needed to do, and to let go of that so that I wasn’t in a battle with him. That was incredibly powerful. Hard but powerful. So it’s been final for two years. And the post separation abuse continues, and BTR’s been incredibly helpful in that. I was able to stay in our marital home for a year till our daughter graduated, and then last year that sold. So I moved out and things just lined up. In part because he was so disorganized. I think that worked out in my favor. And I’m now in school finishing a post Master’s certificate in school counseling. And I got hired last fall as a school counselor. So I’m working full-time as a school counselor while finishing my certificate. Just having somewhere to work out the technical stuff and then the emotional stuff, to understand how to be strategic. RESTARTING MY LIFE Iris: Because I could stay in that place rather than be in his blender. Which is what it was for 18 years. I have been able to restart my life and feel so grateful and fortunate. That I’ve had the support, and he continues to be abusive. And my daughter now is 19 and my son is 17. And so being able to talk about that and how he behaves helped me. I know that at some point, I won’t have to interact with him as much. Or at all once my kids are bigger. But because of the type of abuser he is, because of the types of things he did to me, I know that I am at greater risk of him being dangerous to me physically. And so being able to unpack that, but also, understanding that I have a right to safety and that I can take steps to do that and not feel bad about it. He’s much sneakier now. He’s incredibly angry with me and feels like the divorce was unfair. Because his goal is control, he can’t control me anymore, I think is one reason why he’s angry. It is palpable when I’m around him. He seethes at me. Other people may not be able to see it because he’ll mask it until there’s nobody around. But I think it has been invaluable to me to have a community where I can process that and then take steps to be safe from all the signs of a toxic relationship. When I finally blocked him, which was scary to do, because we have two kids. And that was easier to be able to text and call. It was just another vector for him to get to me. BLOCKING HIM FELT SO EMPOWERING Iris: So blocking him and doing email only. It felt so empowering to make that decision and be able to unpack that in group and also get the support of “Yay, you finally blocked him.” Like I’d been talking about it for so long. And trying to figure out the signs of a toxic relationship, There are the big steps to leave abuse and there are smaller ones too. Sometimes it’s the little ones that felt really hard. Especially because then my kids would know that I blocked him. Moving away from abuse is hard. I left the house today because I have somebody cleaning my house, which I started hiring somebody. So that I can do all that I’m doing. because I’ve been in school and working full-time and parenting two teens, and it feels so empowering. When they walked in today, I was thinking, because I was coming to talk to you and I was like, they’re helping me leave abuse. And I can say that to you. I think you know that. But he was abusive with cleaning. He would wake me. He likes things clean. He’d wake the kids cleaning and it’s very controlling. But to have a clean house and not be abused, it’s hard to express. This is my safe space, and I get to decide how it gets clean. I get to decide how to spend my money. I get to make choices now that I couldn’t make before. I’m just so incredibly grateful that BTR, I can make choices and know that I can. Thank you. LEARNING THE STRATEGIES IS INVALUABLE Anne: You are so brave and so strong. Look at you. You’ve got a good job. You have enough money to be able to hire someone to help clean your house, and the lack of guilt. Because some people have the money, but they’re like, I still can’t. I should be able to, no, like look at all the amazing things that you’ve accomplished. When it comes to divorce, if people ask me my situation, I say I am proudly divorced. I am so happy divorced. And I also say things like abuse doesn’t work out for a lot of people, but it worked out so well for me. Because everything that I have gained from learning about the signs of a toxic relationship and the strategies of protecting myself, has been invaluable. Like our confidence just grows day by day. That little voice in our heads and that little like charge that feels like I’m doing something wrong or I can’t do this or I can’t do that just starts to fade away. And life feels so free and wonderful. I’m so happy for you. It’s wonderful. Good job. Iris: Thank you, thank you for starting BTR and your podcasts were such a beacon for me too. Before I started group of these voices saying, “You’re not alone, you’re not crazy.” Listening to your voice, I still probably need to hear that a lot, because he makes me feel crazy. So thank you. Anne: Well, thank you, without women like you who listen and come and use our services, we wouldn’t be here. So thank you. Our services are incredible. Our team is incredible. It’s such a safe place. THE DIFFERENCE WITH BTR SERVICES Anne: I’ve been thinking a lot about the difference between BTR and the difference in our services is that it’s so real. You really have women you can see who know your story. You can talk to them every single day in person . And they’re never going to blame you or judge you. It’s never going to be that you made some kind of soul contract, like the weird stuff that you might hear from people who somehow try to blame you. I’m like, there’s no reason to ever say any of it had anything to do with you. because you were surviving the best you could the whole time, and you were going for help, and no one gave you the right information. And none of that has anything to do with you. They are helping you deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. That’s the crazy thing about abuse. You’re doing every single thing right and you still can’t get the right information. Despite you trying to get it for years. Some people don’t believe it, because they can’t imagine that would happen. But it happens every day with so many women all over the world. Anyway, thank you for your support of BTR. Iris: It is really such a privilege to be in this community. I felt, loved on and prayed for fiercely. BTR GIVES US THE STRATEGIES THAT WE NEED Iris: I remember when I first started. I thought they’re giving us the weapons that we need to fight the battle. Almost under the cover of darkness. They sort of come into our homes, our cars, our closets, and give us the weapons we need to fight the evil that is happening to all of us. Like all of a sudden realizing the support, but also the education that BTR does, is invaluable, to help us recognize and deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. I could get out of my reactive brain and really start to think, “Oh, this is what’s happening. Okay, this is what I can do. Chuck is doing this. This is what I’ve always done, but I don’t have to do that. I can do this.” It changed everything. Anne: Well, I am so glad, thank you so much, Iris, for taking the time to share your story with me today. Iris: Thank you.

If you’re searching for an emotional abuse checklist, you’re looking for clarity. I’m an emotional abuse expert. My team has helped over 8,000 clients identify emotional abuse and thrive. And I’ve noticed that most victims of emotional abuse in marriage have been told, “You’re too sensitive,” or “You expect too much.” You’ve probably wondered, Is it me? Emotional abuse is often subtle. It hides in half-truths and conversations that never quite resolve. This emotional abuse checklist will give you a clear picture of the patterns. Because emotional abuse isn’t just isolated incidents. To learn more, take my free emotional abuse test. What Is Emotional Abuse? Emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior used to control, confuse, belittle, intimidate, or dominate another person. But it likely won’t feel that way. It’s usually not obvious yelling or cruelty. Many emotionally abusive men seem like really nice guys. That’s why having an emotional abuse checklist matters. Emotional Abuse Checklist Use this checklist to look for patterns. One isolated moment does not mean someone is emotionally abusive. Repeated patterns do. 1. Chronic Lying Your husband lies about serious matters, such as: His whereabouts How he uses his time Money or financial decisions Porn use or masturbation Emotional or sexual affairs The real reasons for his actions When confronted, he minimizes, deflects, or becomes angry. 2. Withholding Information He: Rarely shares his thoughts or feelings Says, “You wouldn’t be interested” Gives vague or incomplete answers Plays dumb when asked direct questions Refuses to provide financial transparency Withholds access to accounts or income details Walks out when discussions get serious Withholding is a way of controlling your perceptions. 3. Discounting Your Thoughts and Feelings He says things like: “You’re too sensitive.” “You’re jumping to conclusions.” “You blow everything out of proportion.” “You always have something to complain about.” “Why do you always twist everything around.” “You’re looking for a fight.” He says your valid concerns are unreasonable. 4. Mood Control He: Makes the house tense with his moods Refuses to acknowledge obvious problems Pretends everything is fine when it clearly isn’t Everyone adjusts to him. 5. Disparages You, But Disguises It as A “Joke” He says: “You’re my ball and chain.” “You would get it if you were smarter.” “What else can you expect from a woman?” “Your blond is showing.” When you object, he responds: “You don’t have a sense of humor.” “You can’t take a joke.” Humiliation disguised as humor is still humiliation. 6. Blocking Conversation He: Pretends not to hear you Looks at his phone while you talk Storms out mid-conversation Says, “The discussion is ended.” Rolls his eyes while saying, “Quit yakking.” Says “Who asked for your opinion?” Stonewalling is a control tactic. 7. Financial Secrets When you ask about money, he says: “You have plenty.” “I’m not going through receipts.” “It’s too complicated for you.” “All you married me for is my money.” “Do I have to account for every penny?” He shifts accountability back onto you. 8. False Accusations When you raise concerns, he says: “You don’t respect me.” “You don’t love me.” “You’ve never supported me.” “If you won’t have sex with me, who are you having it with?” He accuses you of things that aren’t true. 9. Blame Shifting He says: “When you pester me, of course I get mad.” “I wouldn’t look at porn if you met my needs.” “I was going to do it, but not if you keep bugging me.” He blames his bad behavior on you. 10. Character Attacks Instead of addressing issues, he says: “The trouble with you is…” “You’re stupid.” “Really? It’s like you’re never satisfied.” “You’re a bad mom.” “You don’t care about anyone.” He attacks your identity. 11. Trivializing Accomplishments He minimizes your efforts: Makes sarcastic comments about your projects Dismisses your work as insignificant Claims shared ownership of what you built alone You feel small instead of supported. 12. Undermining the Family He: Prioritizes his wants over family needs Disappears for hours or days Leaves you to manage all responsibilities Makes decisions without considering impact The family orbits around his desires. 13. “Forgetting” or Denying Reality He says: “I never said that.” “You’re making that up.” “We never had that conversation.” “You’re upset about nothing.” This is gaslighting. Over time, you question your memory. 14. Ordering and Demanding He says: “Get rid of this.” “You’re not wearing that.” “Shut that off.” He commands rather than collaborates. 15. Subtle Threats He says: “If you act like that, I’m going to…” “When you do that, it makes me very angry.” “If you won’t meet my needs, I get depressed.” Threats do not have to be overt to be effective. 16. Anger as Control He: Yells Glares Punches walls Throws objects Gets inches from your face Unpredictable anger creates fear. Emotional Abuse Checklists Don’t Always Include The Subtle Signs Many people imagine abuse as screaming and violence. But emotional abuse is often quiet. Controlled. Strategic. It can look like kindness or even indifference. It can look like charm in public and cruelty in private. That invisibility is what makes an emotional abuse checklist so important. Emotional abusers often: Groom their partners with affection and charm Alternate between warmth and coldness Appear generous to others Build a public image of “good guy” The contrast creates cognitive dissonance. You may trust him more than you trust yourself. Healing begins when you rebuild trust in your own perception. What To Do If This Emotional Abuse Checklist Feels Familiar The confusion, grief, and destabilization of emotional abuse can feel overwhelming. No woman should process it alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers daily Group Sessions in multiple time zones where women can: Share experiences safely Learn practical emotional safety strategies Rebuild trust in themselves Gain clarity without pressure You can also get more education about emotional abuse. Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Transcript: Emotional Abuse Checklist: How to Know for Sure Anne: We have a member of our community sharing her story today. We’re going to call her Macie. I’m so thankful to all of you who have shared your story. It takes a lot of courage, and it humbles me to hear your stories and I appreciate you. Macie is a single mom. And let’s start with your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Macie: I did not. I actually did not recognize or was even made aware. I just thought our marriage was normal, happy, healthy, that he was such a great guy. And one of the most selfless people I had ever met. And that was pretty difficult when I started to understand what my marriage really was. He had texted that he wanted a divorce. And not knowing the magnitude of his betrayal and all those choices that he was making. Just the stonewalling, the communication dysfunction, the emotional abuse is so hard. But in my mind, that was not even possible. And because of the type of abuse. It was the withdrawal and not communicate, control that way. Versus the yelling or control by physical demeaning. It was never like that ever. So the emotional abuse is so hard to see until I actually had the truth of the whole story. To see, oh, now I can tell where the manipulation and the blame shifting and all that was taking place. Anne: This type of abuse, it’s not overt. Not like screaming and yelling in your face. And people don’t have the education to see it, and many therapists don’t. You’re in this relationship and you don’t know what’s going on, but you know something’s wrong. Why Emotional Abuse Is So Confusing Anne: During that time, what types of things did you do to try to establish safety and peace in your home before you found out about the pornography use and infidelity? Macie: Again, we had what I thought was a healthy, happy marriage. I feel like a lot of it was, a lot of communication with the children. We both were on the same page about talking to them about pornography. We agreed we wanted to talk to them about it, just like we did drugs or alcohol or anything else. And we both come from families where we have a predisposition for addiction. And so we would explain to them, it didn’t matter what. It could be something. We don’t know what it is, so we need to abstain from many things, including pornography. So I feel like we would check in as a family a lot. We had a really open communication about sex, about social media. We had our kids sign contracts, phones were away. I feel like there was a lot of communication within the home surrounding specifically pornography. Which I feel like is ironic, now I know the truth of what he did. I do feel like that even on a spiritual level, we pray as a family, go to church, that aspect too of having the spirit with you. So those were some of the things we did. The emotional abuse is so hard now, understanding that he viewed pornography and violated my home. which of the following is true about emotional abuse​? Anne: Mm hmm. You’re talking about explicit media, you’re talking about healthy sexuality, thinking he is on the same page with you. And really, it was all just a facade. Emotional abuse is so hard. Did you have any sense then, like deep down, that something was wrong? Or did everything seem fine to you? I mean so many women are wondering, “Which of the following is true about emotional abuse​?” Macie: A year into our marriage, granted we got married in the 90s when the internet was really early. So I found pornography, and at that point I felt super hurt, betrayed and cheated on. But I feel like I never saw or knew of any pornography use from him until the actual discovery of his work phone. But I would have kind of this underlying insecurity. Because there was a lot of lying going on. And I never could pinpoint the purpose. And I learned that a part of the abuse blamed me for his lies. Because my reaction would be so much that I would maybe get too angry. So he was justified in lying to me. And it just didn’t make sense. Some of the things he would lie to me about. And I do feel like there was a lack of empathy and emotional disconnect, especially in our communication. I now see that there was a lot of withdrawal, and it took withdraw, withdraw, and then I’d finally corner him to communicate. Even if it was just me feeling overwhelmed or stressed or that I needed extra help. And it ended up an explosion, and then that’s where it led towards the end to the stonewalling. Emotional abuse is so hard: Financial Control & Lies Macie: I had to literally text him in the home to say, hey, can you meet with me so that we can talk? And I didn’t want to overwhelm him with a conversation too long, so extremely unhealthy. There were also situations with money that didn’t make sense. But he was in charge of the finances. And when I tried to get involved, he didn’t want me to. But then it was a problem that I wasn’t involved. So again, I see that he had control over that money, and he could do a lot of the things he did. Because I was not aware yet. He blamed me for not knowing what was going on. I read some emotional abuse quotes, but they were usually about yelling or saying “You’re stupid” so they didn’t seem to apply to me. ​And several gaps in time, he traveled a lot. He missed many flights. Or they bumped him. And again, it was him saying, hey, I’m getting bumped. So we can have a flight that we can use later for us. But really, he used it for other purposes, and disregard for me. I did not feel like a priority, and I had an injury experience. I think that was the first time I realized how unempathetic he was to me. He just looked at me like I’m leaving town and had a broken ankle. He’s like, I’m out of here for the week and good luck. And I just cried thinking how can this be possible? Emotional abuse is so hard. But I still didn’t want to leave my emotionally abusive husband. Understanding emotional abuse Macie: I have these busy children, and what is going on? I felt like he had changed, but I could never pinpoint it. I feel like if I tried to ask questions, it was always I’m this simple person. It’s you, and so I just knew I had to work hard on me all the time. Because everything was falling apart because of me. He was simple and didn’t require a lot, and he wasn’t mean and angry at me. And he just laid low and kept the peace. He wanted me to tell him what to do, then he couldn’t mess up and I wouldn’t get upset. I did not like that dynamic in our marriage either. Because I felt like this dominant person, but I want to be a team though. I want to work together. Well again, with the withdrawal and communication. When I tried to muster up the courage to talk to him, it would end with me feeling like I don’t value him. And how hard he works, and all the things he does around the house. And I just need to be content with how things are. I now see how sad I was not even allowed, or feel like I could even cry in our relationship. Like to him that it was that emotionally disconnected for me. I gave him all I was: my good, my bad, my stress, my anxiety, wanting to work with him together as a union. Then to see that, not only that, but also to see that he used my strengths against me to do what he wanted to do. Each episode of emotional abuse is so hard to see. When I understood the truth of the emotional abuse and saw that was what he was doing. Emotional Abuse Quotes​ Didn’t Help Anne: Many people don’t understand that stonewalling and not talking about things are forms of controlling the conversation. And people will think, well, he just can’t talk about his emotions, or now’s not the right time. Those type of abusive behaviors are controlling. They’re controlling the conversation, they’re controlling the way you can communicate. And that makes it very difficult, emotional abuse is so hard. You can’t be on the same team when one person’s goal is to shut things down, and make sure she doesn’t find out about things. He’s gaslighting you, and so you’re thinking, well, the problem is me, so I need to love, serve and forgive more. When did you realize that this isn’t working? Did you ever get a sense before he filed for divorce? That, man, I am loving, serving, forgiving, and things just aren’t getting that much better. Macie: I wasn’t googling, “What are the 7 signs of emotional abuse?” Or looking for an emotional abuse checklist because I didn’t even think of that. ​I would go to him with a pad of paper and have him give me a list of things that I would need to work on. And I was just trying to love him more and value him more at work, and never ask questions when he traveled. I do feel like he used those things again. I’m going through therapy working on me, and instead it helped him do what he wanted better. Discovering His Lies Was Just One Emotional Abuse Example I mean, he lived two lives. So it made it easier to be like, well, okay, now I’m a good husband and a great dad. And so she’s happy, Which means she’s not going to question any of this other behavior. So it wasn’t until actual discovery that I realized his layer of lies was actually to get what he wanted. And that was really disturbing for me. Emotional abuse is so hard. Especially when you look at 21 years, you know? Anne: So you’ve got this marriage where something’s not quite right, you’re working harder, you’re trying. Tell me how you found the work phone. Talk about what led up to that, that day. Macie: I think that was one of the things you talk about little red flags, things going off. I did feel like he was being unfaithful. I felt like pornography was involved, but simultaneously I trusted him. He was a spiritual person. So to me whenever I had those feelings, I thought I must be the worst person for even assuming or thinking any of these thoughts. And as I worked, I believed he was also working on our marriage together. Because he didn’t want to go to couples therapy. We’re both individually working on ourselves. And one of the things was to make a date night together or spend more time together, but there were still some inconsistencies there. And I felt like I was definitely pulling more of the weight. Unfortunately, on Christmas morning at two in the morning, I happened to just roll over. And saw his phone, and I could see the truth of a conversation he had with a girl he had been on the phone with through the night. Discovering the Betrayal Was Emotional Abuse Macie: And again, the betrayal of understanding the truth, I thought Christmas Eve was dedicated to the family and us. The truth is he was communicating with this person. He had been with her the week previous. He was planning to be with her after. But additionally, it wasn’t just her. When I went out of that conversation, just to see the magnitude of all that was on his phone was unbelievable and overwhelming. Emotional abuse is so hard. I could not even believe he was capable of that, this was the same person? It was unfortunate, because of Christmas morning. I mean, that’s a day you celebrate every year, and you have so many memories attached. So I had to keep it together. I chose not to say anything. I wanted my children to experience Christmas morning as the best it could be. Because I was super emotional, which again, as I talked about in our relationship, in our marriage, we had to be okay. So my kids didn’t see me cry ever. And so when mom’s emotional and crying, they’re like, what is going on? But Christmas morning happened. Mental vs Emotional Abuse Macie: We spent time with family. And it wasn’t until later that I actually confronted him. And everything exploded from there. My goal was to wait until the next day. But that just didn’t really happen. And so it is unfortunate for my children that I feel like a day that we celebrate, and you have memories that will never go away. It’s like, how was your Christmas? Because that was the question following the discovery that I would get asked by every person. And it’s like, do you want to know the truth about how my Christmas was? How was your Christmas? So it was just that constant trigger. Anne: It’s very traumatic for it to happen on holidays. It’s terrible. Emotional abuse is so hard. Hopefully, this Christmas can be the anniversary of your freedom. Macie: Yes, and I’ve talked with the kids. So how do we embrace? I do feel like the kids triggers are different than mine. And just because their life circumstances and memories are different, and also what they know. But I feel like we’ve talked openly about what we can do, and I am really happy for them that Christmas, even Christmas morning, was great. I think the difference changed in Christmas break for them. And that will be interesting to see how to deal with that. Because mom and dad never fought. And now dad’s arguing, and he’s this new person that we’ve never seen before with this anger. So it was a confusing time for them. And then he moved out, and again, they were confused. Like mom and dad don’t fight, and now dad’s moving out. More Helpful Quotes on Emotional Abuse Macie: It was for them because the emotional abuse is so hard for them to process what was going on. Anne: And shocking, probably Macie: Shocking, absolutely shocking. Anne: You’re an amazing, smart, capable woman who is able to plan and make things happen, who graduated from college. Like, you’re no dummy. And same thing with me, and same thing with all the women who listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We are capable, amazing, brave, strong women. Can you tell me your thoughts on that now that you know what you went through? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great point. I actually get asked a lot. Did you really not ever know? Like, you had no idea. And I am almost embarrassed to say I didn’t. And a lot of that was that I trusted so much in him. But I did not allow myself to trust in myself. Like, when I had my own doubts, I discounted it so easily because of my trust in him. I also think because of the type of abuse, he’s not this loud yelling person. Like I feel like emotional abuse is so hard to wrap your mind around the idea of abuse being the ability to not communicate. Like you said, his control was lack of communicating information to me. I didn’t ever know exactly what was going on. Sometimes even for work, I didn’t know exactly what he was doing. And I felt like those were his lay low, just kind of keep the peace, keep her happy enough. But made it really hard for me to say, well, no, I was not in an abusive situation. Compounding Lies & Realization He Was An Example of emotional abuse Macie: He never came at me. He was supportive to me, and would even encourage me to do things. He never said a mean thing to me ever. How am I in an abusive situation? And. I think that’s when it goes back to the lies. I just see there were so many lies. And over time, and even when he would lie to me, and I would forgive him, then it would happen again. And I felt like it was this compound of lies that I was just trying to process. Like, why are you lying to me about this? If you’re lying to me about this, what else is there? Anne: You’re saying, he never said a mean thing to me. But he did, he told you it was your fault. He told you that something was wrong with you. That is cruel. But it doesn’t feel mean, because you think it’s your fault. So many women say that. Oh, he was nice. And I’m thinking, that’s the meanest thing you could do to someone, is tell them that they’ve got a problem when it’s your problem. Macie: I have told him that he did financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like all the betrayal choices he made that harm our family. The one that is the most hurtful are the times he saw me depressed. He saw me feel inadequate. And he saw me crying and I had come to him asking what it is, what’s wrong and what’s going on? He knew what he was doing, but allowed me to believe it was me. And that is so hurtful. It was like a dagger to the heart. Manipulation is Covert Emotional Abuse Macie: And then to take my strengths. Like I’m a hard worker, I want to do hard things and fix things. I would help try to problem solve with him. He was so tired. So it’d be like what’s going on? Well now I know it’s because he was out all night long, he was never sleeping. But I’m thinking what’s going on? How can we problem solve? And he would just allow me to try to help fix things. And I was running on this treadmill that was spinning so fast. I see where had we gone to couple’s therapy, I would have sat there and been like, I’m doing all these things wrong and I need to work harder. It would not have been healthy. I know you’re familiar with Darvo. Anne: Yeah, really quick with Darvo we have some amazing infographics that circulate around our social media on Instagram and Facebook. So if you’re not following us there, please do, because I love to interact with women on social media and hear your comments. So if you do follow us, please comment. Let me know what you think of those infographics and if they’re helpful to you. Macie: When I look at that, it makes more sense to me. Because I would approach him with something that didn’t make sense. And then he would attack me as if like, he couldn’t believe I would believe that. He would defend himself and no, no, no. And then I’d start to feel guilty that I was accusing him or curious or insecure about something. Emotional abuse is so hard: No Validation, Just Blame Macie: Then it would turn around. He became the victim. And suddenly, I was the bad person, because I had come to him to communicate. The communication started with me and ended with me being the bad person. I’d walk away being like, how is this that I just went to him to see how I need help. That I am struggling? Yet I come away feeling like I’m an ungrateful wife. I don’t value him and recognize all the things he’s doing, so it would just come back to me. Then I’d say, okay, what can I do to make it so that he knows that I value and respect all these things, yet I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t feel like I was a priority and was not validated. Instead, it was well, that’s your fault. That’s your fault that you feel that way. I’m a simple person. Like literally he would say to me so often, I am a simple person and I do not require a lot where you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Anne: You’re like, no, you actually require texting seven women, so no, you are very, very complex. Macie: Yes, I do not know how he was able to organize all that, honestly. Anne: So for you, what is one of the most difficult aspects looking back on your marriage now that you know the truth about the abuse? Macie: I know he knew the truth of what he did. I got to a point where I was so down and depressed that I actually had to go into a surgery. Feeling like I needed to go Macie: In my mind, I had made a deal with God that I just needed to be taken. My life to be done, because that was, to me, the easiest way to remove myself from the emotional abuse is so hard, and the situation of my kids having to deal with divorce. And that I was this problem. That if I could just remove myself, then everybody would be so much better off. And I left letters for my kids to read. In my mind, I was totally content with being done. And when I came out of surgery, I knew that I was going to fight, I was going to fight for my family, and I was going to do everything I could. And when I found out the truth that, while I was in surgery. He had taken money from our retirement and was putting it in a bank account for a woman he was financially supporting. That to me just blew my mind that I was ready to be done with my life. I was crying on my way up, he knew I was hurting, that I felt so bad about myself, yet he continued that behavior. And that was my low, low point in recognition. Wow, you put those two pieces together, and you see there was a major disconnect. It’s hard, because I know that there were so many lies in our marriage. Emotional abuse is so hard for me to believe anything was ever true. I believed it was good and there were some good times, but I now know that those good times were the buttering up so that he could keep me happy enough. Signing up for a girl’s trip for me, oh, what a great husband. And that’s so nice. Grooming Is Emotional Abuse Too Anne: But the truth was it was grooming. It’s what it was. He was grooming you on purpose to throw you off his scent. Macie: Yeah, that is so hurtful. I got so duped in believing this person loved me, when I don’t believe there was love in this marriage. How did that happen? And how did I not know? So trying to make sense of how as a smart, capable, independent, person, I thought I had a healthy marriage. How did I miss so much? To not know that that wasn’t love that was happening in my marriage? I felt like I was loving and giving. But it was not reciprocated. And that is emotional abuse is so hard to understand. Anne: Yeah, but it was just for him like a cover. For you, you were his facade. Macie: It blows my mind that he is still the victim. Anne: Pornography is abusive. But then he had all these other abusive behaviors. The control of the conversation, you’ve got sexual coercion going on because he’s not telling you that he’s having sex with other people. You know, there’s so much going on there that is seriously sexually abusive, which is physical abuse. So technically, your husband physically, emotionally, sexually and psychologically abused, And people just can’t comprehend that level of abuse. Macie: Right, it’s mind blowing to believe, like you said, as the person I know I am. That I lived that, believing it was healthy. Like I looked at my parents and their relationship, so in my mind, I was aiming to try to do that. Even though I felt like in my communication to him. I didn’t feel like we were a team. emotional abuse is so hard: Spiritual Journey & Reflection Macie: I felt like I was more dominant, because I tried to get him to help or communicate with me. I felt like I was constantly chasing him to try to get him to communicate with me. Anne: He wanted you to do that. He liked that because you were taking the responsibility for the entire relationship in that case. Macie: I was already doing everything. Anne: So, during this time, you consider yourself a spiritual person. You’re having prayers with your husband, you’re attending church, you’re reading the scriptures. Then you find out that God has not expressly told you in so many words, you’re in an abusive relationship. You realize that for 21 years, you were not privy to the truth. How did that affect your relationship with God? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, there were a lot of moments along the way. As I’ve reflected on the truth. Where I can see God’s hand to protect me and even prepare me in certain ways. I had an injury that happened that at the time. My husband traveled all the time. And I was devastated. My children were extremely busy. I felt helpless and felt like, why did this happen? This is so frustrating for me. Could I have not had some inspiration to not go? It was playing softball, and I slid into third and broke my ankles. Could I have not had something to not do that? But I now see looking back that that was in many ways, God’s way of making me stop In my tracks. God’s Hand in Protection & Strength Through Adversity Macie: Because there were times when I felt red flags, but I never followed through with it. I just discounted it, but then I stopped and actually looked at my life. And started to see the truth of what it really was. I can’t deny that I felt God so present in my life. Not saying, hey, you’re in this abusive relationship. But I even lost my mom. She died of cancer when I was a teenager. And I feel like even that experience prepared me to have some different strength and perspective that I even taught my kids that helped prepare for this heartache. You know, and understanding, and so I can see where, even through the divorce, there were several things that came my way. And to come across Betrayal Trauma Recovery specifically. Because as you know, sometimes when you’re in it, sometimes a normal therapist, you’re just not getting the right information. So getting the right resources. And I feel like all those things were huge blessings. God blessing me and blessing my children and giving me strength as a mom. Just giving myself a little leeway. This emotional abuse is so hard, I’ve had to lean on other people, and that’s been a hard thing. But I’ve been so appreciative. I’m so thankful for your resources through BTR. It’s amazing, I just cannot get enough information. Trusting in God and Self Macie: I believe God knows me better than myself. Even though what I’m going through seems unfair, I look around me and see so many people going through unfair situations. And I’m thankful for believing in something bigger than myself, that helps give me strength. And I also feel like trusting in myself as I move forward in my life. Because my husband betrayed me and I don’t trust myself. I’m working through that, and that’s why I’m thankful for all your resources to validate what I’m feeling. And to build me and help me move forward as a broken, strong warrior. Anne: Healing, a healing strong warrior, and you will. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Macie: Thanks for having me. The Emotional Abuse Checklist You Need Anne: Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes, emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. A domestic violence survivor will share her story with us today. And we’re going to explain why. Because it’s important to understand why emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. In fact, I think it’s the most important one, because physical violence never occurs without emotional abuse. So if everyone can learn to recognize emotional abuse and protect themselves from it. Your chances of physical harm go down drastically. To illustrate how emotional abuse is domestic violence. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. really helps, because it is an actual picture book. There are a ton of infographics in the back that illustrate this type of domestic violence and explain why emotional abuse is domestic violence. It’s an extremely quick read. So if you have people around you that are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around what you’re going through, this book is the perfect way to educate them. You can find Trauma Mama Husband Drama on this link, which is my books page. It’ll just take you to Amazon. You can also find it on Amazon. When you purchase it, circle back around and give it a five star rating, because so many women are searching for books, and they find, The Five Love Languages or Men are From Mars, books that are not helpful. So if you rate it, it’ll help women find this podcast. Which is free to everyone, even if they never purchased the book. All right. Evie’s Story: When you Can’t prove emotional abuse in court​ Anne: Now, let’s get to Evie’s story. Welcome. Evie: Thank you so much for having me. I come from a small town, so I met my husband. i had no idea his behavior was the classic example of emotional abuse. All the emotional abuse checklists I’d seen before didn’t have the subtle types of emotional abuse on them. Isolation is huge, but that was the first big hurdle he didn’t have to cross. Because I didn’t have any family or friends in this new state. Already I was vulnerable, just because I didn’t know anybody. And so it’s so much harder when your gut tells you one thing. And you don’t have anybody else that you trust to bounce those thoughts and feelings off of. Initially, there were a lot of silent red flags in our relationship. He was jealous. That didn’t sit well with me. He was very quick to say things like, I love you. And I remember he said I was like, oh. I don’t feel that way yet. It’s been like a month or two. This is very fast. He reacted negatively to the fact that I wouldn’t say it back. And I was like, I just don’t want to lie to you. So things like love bombing at the beginning. It made it that much harder when the love bombing stopped. Because he yanked that away from me. And suddenly it went from, wow, at the beginning of a relationship. All he could do was shower me with compliments and say how much he loved me. And now I’m not getting any of that. Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Evie: And so things like that were really big, and arguing with him was very hard. He would make me feel like I overreacted to everything, and that my reactions were not valid. And that he didn’t say or do whatever was brought up. And then I also felt very intimidated. He reminded me about other women he dated. And things he did to them when they left him. And so I remember only a couple months in. He let me know the ways he hurt other women. If I leave, what is he going to do to me? Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative material? Evie: I definitely knew that that was a thing for him. Anne: Did you find that to be a example of emotional abuse, or was it like, “Oh, everybody does this?” How did you feel about it at the time? Evie: Yeah, I don’t know that was something that was at the forefront of my mind. Anne: So you weren’t concerned about the pornography use. That wasn’t necessarily a red flag for you. For me it’s important for women to understand that emotional abuse and infidelity go hand in hand. It’s interesting to me because women who exploitative material is an issue for them. They don’t recognize, that emotional abuse is considered domestic violence? Maybe or the psychological abuse. When they find out about the use, they know something’s wrong, because they know this is a person who has told me he’s not going to use it. So the level of lying there gets intense, but he was lying to you about other things? Financial Abuse is An Example of Emotional Abuse Evie: Definitely, I found out he cheated on me, and I think I had always had that in the back of my mind. When that came out, that was huge for me, and there was some financial abuse, it was emotionally abusive as well. I was always very proud of my career and the fact that I was the first person in my family to graduate and get a degree. So when he put my career in jeopardy, that was the biggest red flag that this was a classic example of emotional abuse. I just wish I had the right emotional abuse checklist at the time, like yours. When I was with him, he took my voice away in more ways than one. And one of those was that he would constantly criticize my writing and wouldn’t let me keep journals. And so I turned to writing and sharing my story to start healing and find my voice after emotional abuse. Anne: Domestic abuse and domestic violence are interchangeable. Someone can be an emotionally violent abuser without ever laying a finger on their victim. I frequently say domestic abuse rather than domestic violence. Just so women who haven’t been hit or punched don’t think, oh, this isn’t for me because I haven’t been physically harmed. And also, many people don’t realize that emotional abuse is a domestic abuse issue. It is under the umbrella of domestic violence. It’s also very typical that it never escalates to physical abuse. Emotional Abuse vs. Physical Abuse That’s when women also get very confused. Because they try to figure out what’s wrong. At least for me and so many other victims that I know, they went through years of emotional and psychological abuse where they couldn’t quite figure it out. And then once a violent act happened. It helped them see what was happening. So I try to help them identify emotional abuse vs psychological abuse is important. To do that you need to have examples of emotional abuse. Evie: Yeah, the emotional abuse vs psychological abuse was important to figure out. The stonewalling and gaslighting have left a toll on me. It’s still something that I’m trying to heal from every day. It’s one of those things where some days I’ll be great, “Oh yeah, my gut was right. This is not okay.” And some days it comes back full force. And I will have the negative self talk in my head. Sharing Examples of Emotional Abuse is Healing I shared my story in your community, so it was in front of a supportive audience. I was able to talk about my experience in your community who say, Hey, yeah, me too, because there’s so much power in knowing that you’re not going through something alone. And knowing that you can heal and grow alongside people. I was fortunate enough to find a community which I clicked with. There were three things that I appreciated. One of them was the power to share my story, get my voice back, and share my truth and not feel suppressed. And the second one was connecting with all these other survivors. I think community was huge. My experience, which was validated, and helped me know that I wasn’t alone. Because it’s so easy to think, wow, this doesn’t happen to anyone else. So knowing there were other women, and for me, they were all older than me. And I was the youngest one going through it at the time. It was great. And then the third thing I got out of it was education. I’m originally from a very small town. And had my story happened back in my small hometown, I would have had that same opportunity. And so It was great to share. No matter where I was, as long as I had internet access. I think those three pieces are huge stepping blocks for any survivor. Anne: Now, I can tell from the way you’re talking that you like the word survivor, which is awesome. I prefer the word victim. What is Considered Emotional Abuse? And I’ll tell you why. not saying this to convince you or anyone else. But the reason why I like the word victim is because survivor to me feels like you survived the Titanic or something, right? Like, you got off the Titanic, and the Titanic sank, and you made it to shore, and you survived. The harm is over, but with emotional abuse and domestic violence it may continue because you share children. And because I share children with the man who is emotionally and psychologically abusive to me, I’m actually, literally constantly a victim. Literally, I’m still technically victimized. I’m still lied about, I’m still harmed through things he says. When I say victims, what I want to say is that women can protect themselves, even though the harm could still occur because they share children or for whatever circumstance. And so the reason I don’t like to call myself a survivor is because I’m like, I haven’t survived anything. I’m still struggling through this as safe as possible with the boundaries I have. What are your thoughts about that, as you’ve talked with other survivors? Evie: Yeah, I think labels are important for people. You know, many people want to go by thriver too. I think it is a popular word that’s surfacing in the survivor community. But yeah, labels are personal for people, so I think whatever you want to identify as, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s your story, and however you want to be identified, that is okay. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I feel like you can thrive, you can survive. And I’m not sure if I will say I’m technically a victim forever. And actually I’m pretty happy and grateful to have the boundaries that I have. When You’re Looking For Counselors for Emotional Abuse​ Anne: The Living Free strategies can protect you. I still call myself a victim because he’s still abusive. Luckily, with the strategies, I can completely protect myself and my kids now. As you know, if you listen to this podcast, sharing stories is what this podcast is about. So if you’re interested in sharing your story, one option is to share it here on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. If you’re interested in sharing your story, please contact [email protected]. As women think about sharing, what are some safety tips you would recommend? Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence: Safety Tips for Sharing Your Story Evie: I think it’s important to listen to your intuition and figure out what is a safe audience for you. Maybe you tell a best friend, and if that goes well. Then you tell a family member, and if that goes well, maybe you tell your circle of friends. I think it’s really important to note that we don’t always get the response we’re hoping for especially with emotional abuse. I told some family members, and I thought I would get support and love, and that didn’t happen. And it’s okay to go at your own pace. If you tell someone and you don’t get a reaction that you should, that’s not on you. That’s on them. And if you want to take a break from sharing your story, then take a break. But if you want to keep sharing your story, keep looking for safe outlets to do so. Tell other survivors. I think that’s important. You know, those can be great ways to share your story. Because you’re sharing it with someone and people who do understand, because they’ve been through something similar. They’ll know how to support you and love you. And so I think those baby steps are important. And if you want to get your story out there to a bigger audience. Yeah, sharing on your podcast is one way to do that. You get to share your truth anonymously. You’re also protected. You do a great job. Because you don’t have to connect your name with your story. You can share your story anonymously and still feel like you’re getting your voice out there. Using Pseudonyms for Protection It’s really just listening to your gut and figuring out, what do I need from sharing my story? And I know for me personally it was, I need to get my voice back. Anne: Every woman on this podcast uses a pseudonym for her own protection. Before I started this podcast, I was actually public speaking about what was happening with my abuser, thinking he was in recovery from addiction. We used our real names and spoke publicly at addiction recovery conferences. When I discovered all those lies that I accidentally promoted someone as a great guy, when he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I felt devastated. That was really, really hard for me to deal with. Having had the experience of using my real name and then doing this, I definitely chose to use a pseudonym so that I don’t have to go through that again, because that was awful. So that is one thing that I recommend for victims is to use a pseudonym. It’s helpful to keep you safe. Evie: Yes, absolutely. Anne: I don’t think many non-survivors listen to this podcast. If they do, thank you. I’m honored by you listening. Mostly the people that listen here are current victims of emotional abuse in marriage. The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups​ Anne: Why do you think it’s important to hear these examples of emotional abuse? Evie: It’s so important. I’m just trying to make sure that if there is one person out there hearing my story, who needs to hear what I’m saying. That’s who my audience is. Because whether they’re not a survivor, or they are, and they just don’t want to come to terms with that yet. I think it’s so important to ensure that we’re just spreading our truth. Anne: Yeah, that is a risky endeavor, to start sharing. The cool thing about when you start sharing is that you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s a safe situation or not. You can dip your toe in the water a little bit and see, is it safe to share with this person, with this group, or with these people? And you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s safe or not. And if it’s not safe, you can just back away. healing from emotional abuse​ Anne: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you how to know if someone is safe or not. So, if you’re struggling with that right now, the BTR Living Free Workshop will help. Okay. Now back to years ago, Anne. And then the more you share and assess your emotional safety, the more you can identify a safe group. I think probably in your case, but I’m not sure. Don’t let me put words in your mouth if this is not the case. That now you feel like your support system, not just the other survivors you’re around, but also your friends and the people you interact with, feel safe for you. Is that the case? Evie: Oh, absolutely. Anne: Yeah, and you’ve developed that over time. So that’s awesome. And that’s what can come from reaching out and starting to share. Has anyone seemed safe at first, and then proved not safe? Evie: Yeah, I think that was particularly true with my family, you know, their family. And so obviously they get a little bit deeper level of initial trust and love from you. It’s just so important to have the right emotional abuse recovery That almost hurt the most for me. Because certain family members helped me when I needed to move out. And then later on kind of used my story against me and made me the black sheep of the family. But, as hard as that was, I’m in a good place now where I’m definitely setting healthier boundaries and able to understand what is acceptable respect and love from people. And it’s never easy to cut toxic family members out of your life. emotional abuse how to heal​ Anne: Yep, the longer you go with either no abuse happening in your life anymore. Or in my case, the longer I set pretty strict boundaries to keep me safe from the harm, the stronger we get. In healing from emotional abuse and domestic violence the most important factor is distance from the abuse. And I highly recommend that women join a network of support, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, for example. That runs multiple times a day in every woman’s time zone, which is awesome. I talked to someone the other day. He said, oh, so BTR is a women’s empowerment organization. And I said, yeah, you could call it that, definitely. We want every woman to know she is important, cared about, loved, and doesn’t deserve harm. Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story on our podcast today. Evie: Thank you so much for having me.

When emotional battering is covert, each moment looks harmless on its own. A comment, joke, or a nice” surprise might seem harmless. But when you step back and look at the pattern, a very different story emerges, one where boundaries are crossed, and her reactions are used as evidence against her. SEVEN SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL BATTERING Here are seven signs of emotional battering that often go unnoticed, especially when the husband looks like a great guy to everyone else. Her reactions don’t match his gestures. He is doing something that seems nice, but she seems genuinely distressed. It usually means she senses something that other people can’t. If she seems on edge around his kindness. She flinches at affection or looks uneasy when he is charming, it’s usually because she knows that kindness is hiding something that isn’t so kind. If she watches him carefully, she’s probably gauging risk. Hyperawareness is an emotional survival skill. So if she’s being emotionally battered, it’s totally normal that she’s gonna be on high alert for emotional manipulation. Feeling relief when you are away from him is a powerful indicator that something’s really wrong in your marriage. She apologizes for things that don’t require an apology. If she’s apologizing for just stating her opinion, or talking about how she feels, it’s highly likely that she’s experiencing emotional battering. She adjusts herself to constantly keep the peace. His lies that she’s doing something wrong are part of the emotional battering. Her friends notice that she’s not quite herself around him. A woman who’s trying to make herself smaller is not loved in marriage. If she seems quieter or less alive in his presence, that’s a sign that her husband is emotionally battering her. To learn if you are a victim of emotional battering, take this free emotional abuse quiz. WHAT IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING? Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious, making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others. Worse, an abuser may manipulate others, so you experience emotional battering from people in your church congregation or even neighbors. If you’re experiencing emotional battering from by-standers regarding your husband’s behavior, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. COMMON EMOTIONAL BATTERING TACTICS Being married and experiencing emotional battering by your husband means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include: Gaslighting: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did. Constant Criticism: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence. Blame Shifting: Over time, you may find yourself thinking, my husband says I’m the problem, because he consistently redirects accountability onto you instead of addressing his own actions. Stonewalling or Silent Treatment: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless. Public Embarrassment: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem. Emotional Withholding: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL BATTERING – THE INVISIBLE ABUSE NO ONE CAN SEE Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Kiki. Welcome, Kiki. Kiki: Thank you very much. I’m excited to be here. First of all, I wanna thank BTR, because when I was in the middle of a complete breakdown, not understanding what was happening to me, it was only through finding your organization and the help of your team that made me realize that I wasn’t safe. The abuse was so covert that most people couldn’t have recognized it, myself included. I had therapists that didn’t recognize it as emotional battering. And that started a journey into figuring out exactly what had happened to me. And what had happened to my friend. I came home from work one night, and there were police vehicles all over the place. We were told she had shot herself in her husband’s car. And she would tell us a lot of times these stories, and we would look at her like. She’s crazy or she’s making things up because her husband was such a great guy. As I started going through my own stories and learning things after her death, but I was thinking about it the other day, like, you look at the Diddy trial or you look at women who come in and they’re battered. And they still have a hard time being believed. And then you take somebody who has been covertly abused or live in a society where, if your wife isn’t pretty enough or what have you, then she’s replaceable and it’s okay. PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THERE IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING Kiki: People have a hard time believing there was abuse involved, but I left a 35 year marriage with severe CPTSD. I had a psychotic break, and I had to put myself back together. And during all of it, my ex-husband is the hero. My kids aren’t talking to me because I had some big breakdowns and did some things I’m not proud of. And that was like my friend’s story, she would have these breakdowns. You could be just as abused with a fist as you can with a piece of birthday cake. And I know that sounds silly. But it’s so covert, that people can’t see it as emotional battering. And BTR and the women and the professionals that came on here really gave me that push to step into it. Anne: Talk to me about the things your friend did that were totally normal under the circumstances. Like now that you know what you were looking at. So that we can let women who are listening know they’re not alone. If they’ve done something like this, it’s because they were trying to protect themselves. It’s completely and totally normal, and even healthy, when you’re in the situation to try to get to safety in any way that you can. Kiki: Oh, absolutely. There are several things that come up right away. The first one was we always had holiday parties at their house. They had a beautiful pool and her husband said something that seemed very innocuous and she started yelling. You promised me you wouldn’t say that you wouldn’t do this. ABUSE BY THROWING A SURPRISE PARTY Kiki: And she kind of goes off the rails a little bit, and we’re all sitting there looking at her like, what is going on right now? And so I immediately go into my people pleasing it’s okay to… and she’s yelling at me, “No, you don’t understand. You don’t understand what he does. I told him not to do this. He told me he wouldn’t do it. To you it seems innocent, but it’s not innocent.” And everybody’s looking at her. I get her away, and then I get her calmed down. And I go back and her husband is playing the victim. “Oh, poor me, you see, she’s bipolar. She always does this. This is what I have to live with.” And I feel so bad, because at the time, I didn’t realize I was going through it myself. You don’t realize it until after you’re out of it. Another thing, he was just very manipulative. For her 40th birthday, he threw her this amazing party, and everybody was in awe and completely jealous. And she was not happy about it. She told me afterwards, “I told him, I don’t like things like this. And it was just too much. It was way over the top.” And of course, I’m looking at her like I would give my left arm if my husband would throw me a party like this. Of course, he wouldn’t, because he knew I wanted one. Yeah, so there’s the difference. If you want it, you don’t get it. If you don’t want it, you get it. Then every year after that, he would throw her a surprise party and he would go out of his way to get people there, and she would walk in the room. MAKING HER LOOK UNGRATEFUL, UNKIND AND UNCARING Kiki: And we would all yell, surprise, and she would be devastated. then she’d try to put a smile on her face, and she was dying inside. Because how do you walk into the public where your husband has done this beautiful thing for you, but it’s exactly what you’ve asked him not to do? By year seven, she just kind of walked in, and then just went off in the corner and drank too much. She didn’t want a dog, but her son wanted a dog. So on her birthday, he bought her a designer dog and invited several friends to see her get the dog. Now she loved the dog with all her heart, but it was that manipulation tactic to say. Look at what a great husband I am. Here’s this $1,500 dog and you don’t get to complain about it. Anne: Correct me if I’m wrong. But he had effectively made her look ungrateful, unkind, uncaring. Which is exactly what he wanted. Kiki: Exactly. He was a very charming, gracious host, and the door was always open. I lived next door to them. And she could be reactive at times. And I would hear him talking to his son on the side of the house, and he would be saying. Just be quiet. I’ll help you out. You know how your mother is, you know how your mother gets, so he’s completely not supporting her. The biggest thing: the woman who he had a long-term affair with, they ended up getting married and they had a destination wedding. Anne: Did you know about the affair before she died ? Kiki: I did know about it and she knew about it. She was always concerned about it because her husband had told her it was over. ALWAYS PITTING EVERYBODY AGAINST ONE ANOTHER Kiki: But she would get these, Facebook or emails from an email she had never heard of before or a fake name, nobody she knew. That would say, your husband doesn’t love you. At one point, her husband even admitted it was from this woman, and of course, “I love you. I love only you. This woman’s crazy.” So he always pitted everybody against one another, that they’re crazy. Well, he ends up marrying this woman in a destination wedding. On the 10th anniversary of her death, his new wife, who he had an affair with the whole time. Puts up a post on Facebook that says, “I’ve been keeping a secret. We actually got secretly married on the day before the anniversary of her death” And nobody says a word. There’s whispers behind the scenes, but there’s the, Jesus wants us to forgive and forget. And I’m like, no. And that’s when I said, “Uhuh, you know what? I’m not gonna keep quiet.” And you know what? I believe it was soul murder, because that’s how abusers manipulate their victims, especially the covert type. It’s so insidious. It just eats away at your soul, and you completely lose yourself. Anne: That is so strange. Who in their right mind, if they’re a decent person, wants to publicly say that? Having your new wife tell the whole world that they secretly got married the day before the anniversary of when mom committed suicide. Like, that’s not hurting anyone? What? That’s like next level. How did people react to that post? Were they like, it feels like it would be like radio silence, okay, cray cray town. Or were they like, “Oh, congratulations, I’m so glad you did that secretly because she was so crazy.” What was the reaction? REACTIONS TO AN ABUSIVE POST Kiki: Mostly my friends and people who didn’t know her spoke out. It was almost crickets from friends and family, publicly. Several of them reached out behind the scenes or had somebody reach out on their behalf. People seemed afraid to say anything. That’s what they do is gather their minions. I’ve heard he’s sending out paragraphs of these long texts, playing the victim and putting his son in the role of, here’s Kiki hurting my son. He’s retired from the police force, but is now serving as a bailiff. And that’s, one of the things he’s very concerned about is what if I lose my job or what if I lose face, because nothing triggers a covert abuser than being cornered. Anne: It’s really, I would say, shocking that that’s what abusive messages sound like. Because they sound so nice and they sound like he’s the victim, really. It’s awful to think that society in general is so blind and in the dark about what these messages look and sound like. They all look the same. Once you know what you’re looking at, you know how to see it. And my workshop covers that. I took the real life messages from five different, emotionally abusive men and use those and then how to respond to them. And most of them are just not overt. They really sound like nice guys, but when you know what you’re looking for, you’re able to see these are clearly abusive. Kiki: Yeah, it’s really hard , these are people that we had great times with. You don’t understand that they’re being horrible and they’ve got this whole other life. INVESTIGATORS TALK TO ME Kiki: One thing I will say is, the investigator who called me, actually two investigators called me and the one was really good. We talked about coercive abuse. He says, ” A lot of times people think coercive abuse is they lock you in the house or they take away your money. But it’s not always that way.” He says, “I understand what you’re saying.” He said, “Unfortunately, we’re not at the point in our world where it’s really illegal to be a jerk.” But I did send all his text messages to this investigator and said, “Hey, just in case anything happens, I want you to see this.” I don’t think she was terrified of him at all, nor was I of my husband. As a matter of fact, about a month before she passed away, she was with another friend and wanted to hire a private investigator. The friend was going to help her, and then a day or two later she wrote and she said, no, don’t do it. Because even if I find out he’s cheating again, I love my husband and I am not going to leave him. I think she was just so convinced that she was lucky to have this guy . She didn’t understand the covert abuse. I have become this huge investigator on patterns, looking at patterns and trying to figure it all out. Because it is so sneaky and so covert, and it goes over so long. I thought I had the perfect marriage. I didn’t understand until I was out of it. How much of myself I had lost and how some of these things that I had completely normalized, my ex-husband had me convinced that all men think this way and all men do these things. YOU DON’T KNOW ALL OF THE ABUSE YOU’RE EXPERIENCING Kiki: I got married when I was 21 years old. I had never even heard of pornography until I got married. Then we were in the military, and went to the Philippines, where sex was everywhere, so was infidelity. So anytime a husband had an affair, it was the wife’s fault. Because she wasn’t doing what she was supposed to be doing. And even within our group, there were affairs within different couples. The thing was, you don’t take sides. They’re always invited, and whoever shows up, shows up. Of course, it was always the two people having the affair that showed up. And the spouse that was actually wronged didn’t. It always bothered me. I always felt horrible, but I thought, that’s the way the world is. And it’s really sad when you don’t know what you don’t know until it’s too late. Anne: Isn’t it too late the whole time? You don’t know all of the emotional and psychological abuse you’re experiencing the entire time. Kiki: No, you don’t. Until you’re out of it, you’ve lost your mind. You’re blaming yourself for everything. People are dropping out of your life. My ex-husband was married within 30 days to a woman. He’s 70 now, I think she might be 29 or 30. He is the great guy and look, I finally got away from that crazy person. And I’m sitting here in shock as to how I’m the bad person. But that’s because the people we were around, society as a whole, a lot of the times think, time to get a new one. My ex used to do things very covertly. He knew I was always very concerned about my weight. COVERTLY UNDERMINING SELF-ESTEEM Kiki: Of course, he made me concerned about my weight. He would come home and say, I brought us cake for dessert, and tonight when we’re watching TV, we could eat cake for dessert. And I’d be like, okay. It was always the kind of cake, almost 99% of the time, he liked. Not the cake I liked. And we would split the piece of cake. Well, while I was eating my cake, we would be watching TV and there would be some beautiful actress on there, and he’d say something like, “Oh what did she allow to happen to herself? She just turned into such a fat pig.” Like he would say that. And here’s me sitting here. Anne: Wow. Kiki: So used to people talking that way, that I look and it’s this beautiful woman. I say, “Are you crazy? She’s gorgeous, she’s beautiful.” And he’d say, “Well, honey, don’t get jealous or upset. I mean, she’s not 55 years old and she hasn’t had two kids.” So suddenly that cake is just sitting there in your throat, like this lump of cement. That’s how badly I had been groomed. He would say these horrible things and say, all men think that way. That’s how a lot of people thought in the circle we were with. He told me one time. You know how they always tell on themselves? He says, “I’m not really mad at you. I kind of respect you for finally standing up for yourself.” And I just went, oh my, he knew. It’s a game. Anne: It’s a game of exploitation. How much can I exploit her, how much can I get from her? How can I use her without having to give very much? They know they have to give a little bit. CALCULATING TO EXPLOIT Anne: But like, what is the least amount I can give for the most amount I can get? And they’re not caring about us. They are using us. Their motions, as if they care, are calculated to exploit us. They’re like, what’s the biggest bang I can get for this? It’s a completely different vibe that we feel from people when they actually care about us, when they’re not transactional in the way that they interact with us. All of this I talk about in detail in my Workshop , like exactly why this happens and what to look for, to know if they are transactional in their relationships. That means every time he says, I care about you, he’s calculated that in order to get something out of you, he’s not actually caring about you. That’s what makes couple therapy so impossible or going to clergy so impossible, or friends. Because he’ll never actually say the truth of how he feels and what his intentions are. Kiki: Oh yeah. I grew up where love was transactional. I know it’s not my fault, but if I want a healthy relationship, then I have to understand that. Anne: The plane wreck’s not your fault. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have supplies on it. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have a satellite phone. You are gonna need to stand up and start walking toward the nearest city, and I think that’s what you’re talking about. It is where you’re like, okay, the plane wreck is not my fault. None of this is my fault. However, if I don’t stand up and start moving forward, I’m not gonna survive this. Kiki: Exactly. HOW THEY ACT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY Anne: That survival starts with recognizing what these liars do and what they say. If we had to boil it down—though it’s almost impossible—it’s this: if you only observed what they did with your eyes and not your ears, what would you see? Most of the time, you would see that how they act doesn’t match what they say. And that’s when women start asking an important question: is lying emotionally abusive? Because when someone’s words and actions never line up, that pattern alone begins to erode your sense of reality. Kiki: Oh, I often say that if my ex-husband’s lips were moving, there was a lie coming out. Even though he presented as the most wonderful, generous person you ever met in your life. He controlled with size. He controlled with victimhood, the poor me. As a matter of fact, most people would tell you in my family that I wore the pants of the family. But the reality was, it was just an illusion. I was controlled from the time I woke up through the time I went to bed. I call it death through thousand paper cuts just all day long. “Did ‘you have to put the ketchup in here like this? Why did you put the dish in here like this? Most women would be thrilled that they have a husband that wants to watch TV with them. Why can’t you come sit down and watch TV?” I’d be like, oh yeah, you’re right. And I’d go running and never understand what was really going on. I think that happens in a lot of marriages, and it still didn’t all add up for me. I had to learn patterns, because to me, coercive meant it was mean, but it’s not always. SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON EMOTIONAL BATTERING Anne: You mentioned they can hurt you just as much with a piece of cake as they can with a fist. The most abusive thing someone can do is tell you they love you when it’s not true. They’re using you. They love what they can get from you, but actually caring about you, not so much. Thank you so much. Kiki, you’re incredible for wanting to set the record straight about who your friend was and why she was acting the way that she was. She was doing what any healthy woman would do, not understanding her situation, and trying to create some emotional safety for herself. In the best way that she knew how and she didn’t know what was happening and she didn’t know what to do about it. And that’s not her fault. That’s society’s fault. That’s every therapist that they went to’s fault. If they went to therapy or clergy or whoever, who did not educate her about what was actually happening. Because women in this situation, they do the right thing. They try to get help. They try to get information, they try to listen to their husband and communicate with him more. Whatever it is they’re trying to do, they have good intentions. It’s really unfortunate that bystanders, professionals, people outside, they attribute good intentions to someone. Meaning an abusive man who doesn’t have them. He actually has bad intentions. So, that’s awesome that you’re honoring your friend in this way. I bet she’s looking on you and thanking you for that. WANTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND Kiki: I hope so. Yeah, I wanted people to understand who she really was and why she was the way she was sometimes, and even for her son to maybe understand who his mother really was and what was happening. Because I think that’s the biggest travesty. I’m being blamed for hurting the son, but the son is still caught in these dynamics within a system that protects the perpetrator. The truth may hurt, but lies will kill you. Anne: Yeah, oh, that is so true. Kiki: Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. You’re amazing. BTR is amazing and thank you. Anne: Thank you.

If you’ve been betrayed by your husband, you’ve probably replayed every conversation in your head. What he said. What it meant. Here are six things a cheating husband says that may seem innocent, or even remorseful, but are actually manipulative and abusive. You deserve safety. Clarity. Truth. Take my free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing this. 1. Cheating Husband Says, “It’s because you were pregnant.” At first, this sounds like a confession wrapped in vulnerability. But let’s be clear: blaming betrayal on your pregnancy is a covert form of abuse. He’s saying, “You made me do this.” He’s shifting responsibility for his betrayal onto your body, and your vulnerability. This isn’t guilt…it’s manipulation. 2. “I’ve had this addiction since I was a kid.” If your cheating husband says this, it might trigger your compassion, and that’s the point. Yes, trauma is real. But past trauma is not a free pass to traumatize others. When a man uses his childhood as a shield against accountability, he’s not trying to heal. He’s trying to keep you from leaving. 3. “Let’s” get help. This one is tricky. At first, it seems like progress. Counseling. Support groups. Healing. But what if he’s lying in those sessions? What if he’s telling the therapist half-truths, or worse, repeating the kind of things a cheating husband says to shift blame onto you? Many women spend years in therapy trying to “fix” the marriage, when the real issue is that he’s abusive, not confused. 4. “You’re just not supportive enough.” If your cheating husband says you’re the problem, he’s counting on you to believe him. Women in these situations often over-function, working double-time to prove they’re loving, patient, faithful. Meanwhile, he’s lying, gaslighting, and keeping secrets. This isn’t a marriage. It’s a mind game. 5. “I’m sober now.” He might say he’s changed. That he’s not using anymore. But his actions don’t match. He’s distant. Emotionally cold. You feel invisible in your own home. But in public? He’s pouring your coffee. Smiling like the perfect husband. This tactic, acting loving in front of others while rejecting you in private, is covert emotional abuse. 6. “You’re emotionally Abusive.” This one is the hardest. When you finally draw a boundary or leave, the cheating husband says you’re the toxic one. He tells your church, your family, your friends:“She’s crazy.”“She ruined the marriage.”“I tried everything.” This tactic is called DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. And it’s one of the most psychologically damaging parts of betrayal. Why It Hurts So Much When your cheating husband says things like this, the trauma goes deeper than infidelity. It’s not just about sex or secrets. It’s about emotional coercion and psychological manipulation. And if you feel confused, isolated, or like you’re slowly losing your grip on reality, you’re not crazy. You’re experiencing betrayal trauma. This interview dives deeper into one woman’s story. Pay attention and you’ll hear how her husband used every one of these to make her thing his cheating was her fault. Transcript: 6 Things Cheating Husband Says Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen. Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today. Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women. We’re talking about how your cheating husband says that it’s your fault. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation? Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right. Discovering His Infidelity Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into exploitative material, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined. It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. Unfortunately, he was lying to me. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child—something I later realized is exactly the kind of thing a cheating husband says to avoid taking responsibility. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage. I never even thought this type of infidelity was abusive. We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better. Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me. Realizing The Infidelity Was Emotional And Psychological Abuse Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has an addiction and going down that route for a while. Did you ever consider you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser? Kathleen: I had no idea. Anne: And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s been unfaithful, he’s abusive? Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him. Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help. Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it. Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive Challenges With Clergy Who Don’t Recognize Abuse Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that infidelity is abuse? Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started with this one counselor, the well known Catholic counselor in infidelity expertise, and I felt like I was blamed in this situation, the same way a cheating husband says things that shift responsibility, and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately, it was just the same thing. It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women. Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you? Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me. Anne: When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially? Kathleen: Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken. Cheating Husband Says OTher’s Should Stay Neutral Anne: I can tell you why. Kathleen: Go ahead. Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit. These are some of the confusing factors when deciding if you should stay married after infidelity. Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party. They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is harmful to the victim. Since infidelity is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important. When Cheating Husband COnvinces Others It’s Your Fault Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been, the same kind of story-spinning a cheating husband says to protect himself. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about. Anne: This is one of the ways abusers manipulate their victims. People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse. Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you. When CheatinG Husband Says It’s Because of You Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband. Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is? Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through. Recognizing The Full Extent of His Infidelity Anne: When did you realize that all these years of, “Something’s not quite right.” When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and coercion? Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter. I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong, not just the things my cheating husband says, but the patterns behind them. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused. Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else. Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his infidelity. I was always searching for addiction services for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything to help with what a cheating husband says. But all the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse. Finding Support and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there. I never wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was infidelity and it was his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was hard to find help. Anne: When did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just found BTR online and saw there was The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that got it. Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him it when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you? Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself. Lying, Manipulation, Gaslighting ARE Infidelity Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog. Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using it again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. Those claims, the things a cheating husband says, kept me doubting myself.But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because infidelity is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance. He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator. Secrecy Of Infidelity Makes It Traumatic Anne: When you changed your outward talk from did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset? Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage. Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive? Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused explicit online media and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety. My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him. People Who Are Uneducated About Infidelity Don’t Know It Causes Trauma Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying infidelity is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t want to go down that route. I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me, Kathleen: Right. Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it. Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on the lies a cheating husband says to protect himself. Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too. Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying. Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really. Kathleen: Absolutely. Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help. Importance of Truth & Full Disclosure In What A Cheating Husband Says Anne: If they go down the addiction recovery route, many programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of an addiction specialist? Then you have to figure out if your husband’s apology is genuine. Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out. Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately? Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better. Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where a cheating husband says he’s told the whole truth, but it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth. Discovering The Truth Is Difficult Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he abused the neighbor. Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all. A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you. That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Women Feel Betrayal Trauma Because Cheating Husband Says It’s Her Fault Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know. Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced? Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother. Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him? Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me. Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce. Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now. Navigating Community Judgment And Isolation WHEN A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS YOU’RE THE PROBLEM Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think what my cheating husband says is true…that I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough. Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that? Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something. Anne: Yeah. Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well. Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating. Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Especially if her abuser has covert narcissist traits. Because it’s like, “I don’t take you seriously.” WHEN OTHERS SIDE With WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not? Kathleen: Right. Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy. Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy. Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers. I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird. I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that. I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best. EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m surprised to hear that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I recognize it’s abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think infidelity is abusive, is what he said. This is a prominent therapist out there. Kathleen: Wow. Anne: And I was like, Okay, whatever. Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it? Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse. Kathleen: I call that infidelity. Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse? Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife, instead of what a cheating husband says. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it. Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you. The Ongoing Struggle With Abuse Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it. Kathleen: Right. He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me. Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you. Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand how what a cheating husband says can hurt you. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow. Anne: The parenting plan or something. Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan. Anne: This is why I created my Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan? Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan. Anne: Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the things a cheating husband says. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world. Faith And Frustration In the Face Of Abuse Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered. Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation. Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point. Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you. Hopes For Divine Intervention Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing. Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do. Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus? Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well. Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation. Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out. Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her? Kathleen: I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything about what a cheating husband says, don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with. Educating Future Generations Anne: It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that you’ll experience if your cheating husband says it’s your fault. Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do. Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see. Anne: That’s one of the goals of our daily online support group for betrayal trauma is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing. Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road. Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this.

For many women, signs of emotional manipulation don’t stop with their husband. It often spreads outward, into families, faith communities, friend groups, and even professional support systems. Emotional manipulation can be especially destabilizing when it comes from people a woman expects to be supportive. Friends, family members, clergy, therapists, or neighbors may unintentionally reinforce harmful patterns, leaving her feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure where to turn. Here are seven signs of emotional manipulation that often appear after a woman reaches out for help: 7 Signs of Emotional Manipulation When SEeking Marriage Help 1. Advice that centers on him instead of your emotional safetyComments like, “He needs your support” don’t take into account that he might be lying or manipulating you. 2. Spiritual or moral language used to silence you.Phrases like, just forgive or don’t keep score, pressure women to look on the bright side, when really they need to seek emotional safety. 3. Undermining reality.Statements such as “it’s not that bad” or “you’re overreacting”, erase facts and blur the truth. 4. Discomfort disguised as reassuranceOften when someone is uncomfortable with hearing the truth, they rush to shut it down with statements like, “Everything will be okay.” When really they’re just pressuring a woman to stay silent. 5. Protecting his image over the truthIf you go for help and the people you ask for help are more worried about protecting his image than they are the truth, they might say something like, “You shouldn’t talk about your husband like that.” 6. Isolation through nicenessWell-meaning nice responses can leave you feeling alone, misunderstood, and less likely to reach out again. 7. Pressure to explain, convince, or educateBeing expected to justify why emotional manipulation is harmful drains energy that is needed for healing. Recognizing these patterns is an important step toward clarity. Emotional manipulation becomes even more powerful when it is reinforced by others, especially at the moment a woman is seeking understanding and support. How Education Helps You Recognize Signs Emotional Manipulation Sooner Many women have found answers listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place to ask questions, process trauma, and express your emotions. If you’re unsure if what you’re experiencing is normal or toxic, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. TRANSCRIPT: Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage Anne: I love hanging out with my good friend, Kate. Today we’re talking about signs of emotional manipulation, not just from your husband, but from other people he’s using to manipulate you. Because if he is manipulating you, he’s sometimes saying things in a loving, kind way and so he’s gonna talk to other people that way, and they’re gonna be like, “He seems so nice.” This is something that almost all 200 of the women that I’ve interviewed have faced, and Kate is really good at explaining why this happens. Kate: It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” I’m just like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean like the first two years we were married where I just gave him so much love and support and it was amazing?” and then he lied. Anne: Sometimes really well-meaning people don’t realize that he’s been manipulating them. It’s extremely destabilizing when they don’t know what’s happening. Kate and I are going to focus on the manipulation that comes from outsiders like therapists, clergy, friends, family, whose responses, even though they’re well-meaning can leave women feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure of where to turn. So if you’re having marriage trouble, you need to hear this. We’re gonna talk about how you might respond to these comments. A lot of these responses might be for our own entertainment or benefit, like in our own head. We wouldn’t necessarily say this out loud, right, Kate? Kate: Yes! Anne: We need to be strategic in the way that we speak. If you’re interested in learning strategy, please take my workshop, go to btr.org/workshop where I give detailed instructions about strategic ways to respond to manipulators. Emotional Manipulation Through Well-Meaning But Hurtful Comments Kate and I aren’t necessarily doing strategy today. We’re more doing like what you can think in your own head so that you can feel better. So Kate, What’s a really common thing that betrayed women hear from outsiders who don’t actually understand the situation?  Let’s just start with like rapid fire stuff we might hear from outsiders who have been manipulated. Kate: “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband.” Anne: When they say, “out”, they mean you shouldn’t tell people the truth about what’s going on. Kate: If I say at church or anywhere that my husband is a addict, I’ve had people tell me, “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband like that.” I’m like, “What? If he didn’t want to be outed, he shouldn’t have done it.” Anne: I know, and I shouldn’t have married him apparently. Kate: I love my story, I get to say whatever I want. It happened to me. He made his bed. Anne: And he shouldn’t have looked at it. So we’re even. Kate: If he didn’t want it, he shouldn’t have done it. Anne: Here’s another one a lot of people say, “He just needs your support.” Kate: Blech! Anne: Yeah, when we’re going for help, we’re telling people what’s going on, and they come back at us with a statement. Like if someone’s in addiction, they’re going to need your support and help. It feels terrible. I think in my head. Like what matters right now is what I need. I need his honesty. I need his fidelity. Kate: I’m like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean, like the first two years we were married, where I gave him so much love and support, and it was amazing? And then he lied.” The Reality Of Supporting An Emotionally Manipulative Husband Anne: I supported his butt out of the house. Kate: I supported him by doing what was best for me. Anne: Which was best for him. Kate: Yes. Anne: This one I’ve actually said to people, but I couldn’t say it with a smile on my face. I was saying it out of pain. I said something like, “No one should ever ask a victim to support their abuser, ever.” It is important to point this out so women know how to recognize victim blaming. Kate: It’s so true. What do you mean to support him? You mean what I’ve already done for so long and it didn’t work? We’ve given them so much support. Anne: Yeah for me, I was managing things, so well. Supporting him so much that I didn’t realize how bad it was. Also those general principles that everybody tells us, like love, serve, forgive and support that are principles I believe into my core. I wasn’t willing to ditch those right off the bat and go with safety. I mean, I had to try supporting him. So I had to try making his therapy appointments and all that to get, to gain my own realization. That it was not going to work. What do you think? Have you ever met a woman who just went straight to boundaries. Kate: No, actually. I think it’s kind of normal. And I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. I see it as you have to try this one way to know it doesn’t work. It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” We are loving people, and we try it. Of course, we’ll want to help someone. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation: The Chocolate Cake Analogy Kate: Let’s say our husbands were healthy people and struggling. It would be good for us to help them. But yeah, we have to learn that our help will not help them like we think it will. Anne: Let’s say you bought a giant chocolate cake from Costco once a week. And your husband. Is like, Hey, I don’t want to eat chocolate cake anymore. Would you mind helping me? You’re like, “Sure, what can I do?” And he says, “Would you mind not buying chocolate cake from Costco every week?” And you’re like, yeah. No problem, happy to do that. And then he’s grateful. and he says, “Thank you for not buying chocolate cake. I super appreciate it.” And that’s it. You don’t buy the cake. He doesn’t need it. No big deal. When he ate chocolate cake, it didn’t hurt you. And it’s no big deal to not buy it. But with viewing explicit content he’s essentially gaslighting you and victim blaming you saying. “I need help not hurting you,” which is essentially saying, “If you did something different, I wouldn’t hurt you”. Kate: Exactly, it comes from the entitlement and resentments, so frustrating. Unhelpful Reactions From Others Anne: Another one I encountered was a woman who lived in my ex’s neighborhood, and I knew her from before. ” I said, I’m concerned about my kids. Can you keep an eye out for them?” I told her a little bit, and the whole time she looked uncomfortable. Instead of saying, “Of course, I’ll keep an eye out for them. This must be stressful to you!” She said, “It’s okay. I don’t know why you’re freaking out. Your kids are going to be fine.” I couldn’t think of anything to say in that moment. I don’t know if I should have said anything. I think I might’ve said, “It’s not okay. It’s not okay.” Then I just walked off because I was super mad. Kate: That makes no sense. I think I would have been like, “Thank you, I feel so much better! Yes, that is so helpful. Okay, not freaking out now.” Then just walk away with this ridiculous fake smile. Anne: You know what’s crazy? You saying it’s gonna be okay erases all the facts. I appreciate you waving your magic wand of the words, it’s okay, which apparently in your mind are magic and they make facts disappear, thank you. Kate: “You just magically made my husband better. Thanks!” Anne: “Or the situation, is now fine. Yeah, thanks.” Other things you can think of? The Misuse Of Forgiveness Kate: Forgiveness, “Just have a little more forgiveness for your husband.” Anne: When people say ‘forgiveness’ now, do you know Hamilton? Kate: Yes. Anne: ♫Forgiveness♫ I’m not singing it right because I can’t sing, but that word, when they sing it like that, it’s like this burst of peace coming through and happiness. It feels cool in the musical. For those familiar with Hamilton, you might know what I’m talking about. If you don’t, sorry, I didn’t mean to ruin it for you. Kate: Actually, when you said Hamilton, I was thinking of the stand up comedy from Katherine Ryan. I don’t know if I can watch Hamilton now because I will be thinking of her the entire time. Anne: Wait. When I said Hamilton, you were thinking who? Kate: Katherine Ryan does a stand up about Hamilton. She calls out the misogynistic crap in some of the parts. It is so funny. Anyway, sorry, sidetracked… the forgiveness. I’m like, “What do you mean forgiveness?” If it was something that was in the past and the threat was over, I could maybe understand. Even then, it’s still nobody else’s business. Forgiveness is not like all of a sudden, “okay, I’m done.” Sometimes it’s like baby steps. There are so many little things to forgive. It’s not just one big lump thing. So when someone says forgiveness, I’m like, “yes, maybe when the threat is over and I’ve had time to cool down.” Anne: Like how is me forgiving him going to stop him from harming me? This is the truth about forgiving abuse. Kate: Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: I think this is a useful exercise. Forcing forgiveness is an effect of spiritual abuse. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation From Unsafe People Anne: There are safe people who we could actually have a conversation, explain how we feel, and talk about these things. They would be like, “Oh, yes. I’ve never thought about that before and I totally see it. I’m so sorry.” I have a super good friend who when neither of us knew what was happening, she said all the wrong things. But when I started talking to her about it and how I felt, she got it. She’s a safe person because she understood. She was like, “I can’t believe I said that stuff to you. I am so sorry. I was only trying to be helpful and I totally missed the boat.” The problem with trying to have a witty comeback or just the right thing to say to someone when they don’t understand is number one, you could hurt a safe person. Like if you’re snarky or sarcastic, it could actually hurt their feelings, and then it could push safe people away. The second thing is that if they’re never gonna be a safe person, you’re just setting yourself up for your abuser to groom other people around you that it’s your fault. They’ll think, “What is wrong with her? She’s rude.” Or, ” She doesn’t forgive. She doesn’t live a biblical life. Doesn’t she know she’s supposed to submit?” Kate: ” She’s must be so mean. Oh, the poor husband!” People Feel Sorry For Husbands Anne: I think in, at least our church culture, Kate and I have the same faith, a very outspoken woman, sometimes people feel sorry for her husband. Do you think that? Kate: Oh my gosh, yes. A million times over, yes. They will always feel way more sorry for the man than the woman. It’s obnoxious. Even my own family has done it. Everybody knows, it’s not a secret, Anne: But Kate: There was one time I mentioned in front of family members. He’s sitting right next to me. He knows this. I know this. It’s like my husband is enmeshed with his family in a bad way. But my sister ended up telling me, “You called out your husband?” They were feeling so bad for him, because he just sat there and didn’t say anything. He looked so embarrassed. I ended up asking my husband, “Were you embarrassed?” He’s like, “What? No.” He ended up actually writing them all a email. I mean, he sent it before he even told me he was going to do it. He basically was like, “No, I have ruined her life. I’ve done this, I’ve done this, I’ve done this. She’s still allowed to tell whoever she wants.” It was very validating, but it’s still frustrating, because even though he sent that email, I guarantee most people would still be like, “Yeah, but she must be so controlling. Maybe she forced him to write that email?” Or, “Oh, poor, poor man.” It’s frustrating. Go To A BTR Group Session To Process Hurtful Comments Anne: In our faith, it seems like a lot of the men might go in and confess to their clergy or something, and instead of getting some type of, “Whoa, this is serious. You are not following Jesus at all. Maybe we need to protect people from you because your behavior is pretty atrocious.” Instead of saying that a lot of times they’ll tell these abusers, “Oh, you’re not really that bad. You’re great.” Kate: “Oh, you just need more church. Go to the temple. Here, we’ll give you a calling; this will help you.” Anne: “Volunteer more. ” Yeah, exactly. If you need to process your own trauma through thinking, “Okay, these are the things I could have said.” Talk to your friends. Talk to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session clients in a group session. because When someone says something like that to you, it causes an injury. Sometimes it can be pretty extreme. Sometimes it can be minor. It depends on where you are in your trauma healing process. Like now when people say stuff to me, the injury to me is a lot less than it used to be. But, to validate people who are like, “Why do these little comments the nice, 80 year old woman at church tells me, or my neighbor hurt me so much?” Maybe to just validate women and say, “Of course, they’re going to hurt you. Of course, you’re going to need to process it.” You’re going to go through this time in your head where you think, “What could I have said back to this person that could have either educated them or put them in their place?” Strategies To Respond To Signs Of Emotional Manipulation Anne: You don’t want to put an 80 year old woman in her place, that’s just not nice. And if they really, truly don’t want to get it, then educating them isn’t going to work. So validate that we need to process it. Then, to consider that it’s not our job, and we don’t have to worry about educating other people or putting them in their place. Kate: I think it’s beneficial to come up with the witty comments, but not necessarily to say them, because it doesn’t ever really help. I love coming up with the funny comments, but it’s more fun to then tell it to friends afterwards. It’s more funny then because that way you’re not hurting other people. But you can still find some humor in it so it doesn’t feel so heavy. I know that in some circumstances it is best not to say much. Because they’re going to try to make you in the wrong no matter what. There are many circumstances where I prefer to be vulnerable, not necessarily for them, but for me. Even if it’s just as simple as, “Oh, that kind of hurt my feelings.” Or, “Well, he’s hurt me a lot. I’m still processing.” I like to be vulnerable. That’s empowering for me. It actually gets the better responses from people, where they’re not defensive. Anne: Rather than a snarky, sarcastic one. Kate: They’re still not going to always want to learn, but it might help them think twice. But again, that’s not the reason. The reason is because it empowers me to be honest. Anne: I think being honest is always a good idea. My concern is safety. Engaging In Conversations About Trauma Anne: Could you put yourself in a place where you could be harmed by that person? We might think, “Oh, I’m not safe to say this to someone.” If we say, “I’m super sad because my husband is abusive.” If they don’t like us, however they felt before is how they’re going to feel after. It’s not like suddenly they’re going to be like, wow, I like you now, or I don’t like you now. You’re not going to change someone who really liked you and cared about you to someone who doesn’t like you and cared about you. Kate: Yeah, it does. I also think when it comes to safety, a lot of times I find that safety within me. Yes, somebody might make me feel unsafe, but it doesn’t make me feel unsafe to the point where I’m not going to say, “Hey, that hurt my feelings.” I’m still safe enough to do that, because it’s more empowering for me later on. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to put this in words. I have not come across a time where I have been honest and vulnerable, and it made me more unsafe. And I was like, I shouldn’t have done that. Because I always learned from it. This isn’t going to work for everybody. I’m not saying everybody should be like this, because there are some horrible people out there. Sometimes the best thing is to not say anything. Deciding If It’s Safe To Share Trauma Anne: I think I was like that more at the beginning when I discovered about my ex husband’s addiction. I’d see somebody at Costco and they’d be like, “How are you?” I’d be like, “Really bad, I just found out my husband lied to me for six years, and he’s using pornography, and it stinks. But it’s super good to see you. How are you doing?” After that, they’d be like, “uh?” So I would do this quite a bit in the beginning, and now I’m less like that. Number one, because I’m not living in my trauma as much anymore. If they asked me, how am I doing today? I’d be like, “Great, I’m doing great. I ate a vegetable.” You know, it’s not like the thing on my mind. So it would be easy for me to talk about something else. I think I’ve learned to be a little more guarded, because I thought shouting it to the world would bring safety. If everybody knew, how could he do it? I realized that did not keep me safe. So for that reason, I think about safety a little differently than I thought before. Kate: It doesn’t go over too well when you’re like, “You know what? My husband just lied to me, and so I’m a little upset. I just found out he’s a big fat liar.” Anne: It goes over super well in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, or with a close friend, like Kate, who understands it. When Experiencing Signs Of Emotional Manipulation, Balance Honesty & Safety Anne: So if you have a safe place to go, then yeah, share it there. Kate: I think you can still be honest in those circumstances without actually saying all of it. You could just say, “You know what? Eh, I’m so so. I’m alive. I’m okay.” You don’t have to be like, “I’m great.” Then be like, “I’m dying inside.” You can still find ways to be honest. Anne: Saying something like, “Things are really, really hard for me right now.” And if they say, “Oh, what’s wrong?” Be like, ” I can tell you want to help and you care about me by asking me, but talking about it’s not going to help. You know what would help? If you fix my sprinklers. Or, bring me a pizza. Kate: That one would be great. Anne: We’re just exploring this together and that’s what the podcast is for.

If you’re typing “Celebrate Recovery near me” into Google because you’re desperate for help after discovering that your husband has been lying to you about his infidelity or his use of inappropriate material, you’re not alone. BEFORE GOING TO CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, CONSIDER THIS: 1. Recovery Programs Only work If He’s Honest A recovery environment only works if your husband is completely honest about his behavior. Even in cases where he’s willing to attend a program, some women discover their husband takes “chips,” confesses slips, or shares breakthroughs in group without ever telling her. Not because he’s changing, but because he’s using the system to make it look like he’s changing. 2. celebrate recovery near me Can’t Fix Emotional Abuse When women search “Celebrate Recovery near me,” they often think the program will help heal their marriage by helping their husbands understand the root causes of their addiction and behaviors, especially if he seems willing to go meetings. But the root issue isn’t addiction, it’s entitlement, control, and dishonesty. Most recovery programs aren’t designed to assess or confront coercive control. So instead of getting safer, some women end up feeling more confused. Before you invest your hope in any program, you deserve to understand the full picture. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz. 3. Some Men Use Recovery or Language as a Shield Many women report that once their husband joined a recovery group like Celebrate Recovery near me, he just learned to speak the language of recovery without actually changing. Instead of becoming more honest, some men become more skilled at hiding, using the right words, sharing at the right times, and appearing accountable…while the underlying patterns stay the same. This isn’t necessarily the program’s fault. Recovery culture tends to take disclosures at face value. But for some men, it becomes a stage rather than a mirror. 4. If He Gets Praise in Group but You Get Hurt at Home, Pay Attention The applause of a group like Celebrate Recovery near me can unintentionally reward performance. Your lived experience matters more than his report. If his recovery looks great publicly, but privately you feel scared, confused, dismissed, or blamed, that’s a sign to step back and observe what’s happening. You don’t have to announce this to anyone 5. RECOVERY Programs Don’t Replace Betrayal Trauma Support A program like Celebrate Recovery near me often uses a model that focuses on his trauma from childhood or his triggers. They may encourage couples to build routines that reduce his stress or triggers, sometimes placing more responsibility on her to monitor or support his progress. These might be good tools for people who genuinely want to heal. But they don’t address lying, manipulation and entitlement. A woman in an emotionally abusive marriage needs support that centers her emotional safety, not his recovery timeline. 6. If You Feel Worse After the Program Starts, That Matters Many women assume feeling worse is a sign that they’re a part of “the problem,” or they need to be “more supportive.” When his patterns of behavior become a shared problem…something you’re both expected to manage…it often creates more emotional chaos for her. Her emotional safety needs to be addressed separately, not tied to how well he’s doing or how much effort he appears to be making. Feeling confused, blamed, responsible for his recovery, or pressured to forgive and move forward…is a sign something else is happening. 7. Your EMOTIONAL SAFETY COMES BEFORE HIS RECOVERY STORY If you’re searching “Celebrate Recovery near me” to save your marriage, here’s the most important thing: his recovery is not the foundation of your emotional safety. Your clarity is. It’s important to have your own support community in place that is educated in the dynamics of emotional and psychological abuse and can help you decide what you need for emotional safety. If you need support in addressing what’s really happening, and whether a recovery program can help, you can start with my Clarity After Betrayal or BTR Group Sessions. They’re designed to give you immediate clarity. Transcript: What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” Anne: I’ve talked to hundreds of women who have typed things like “Celebrate Recovery near me”, or “addiction recovery program” into Google. Especially when their husband said he was an addict and he is willing to go to a program. So if he’s willing and goes to this program, it’s totally normal for a woman to think that things are gonna get better. But over the years, I’ve interviewed countless women who tell me things actually got worse. And I’m interviewing one of those women today. We’re gonna call her. Nancy. Here’s part of her story. Nancy: His coworker called me. She told me she was out with some friends. And he flirted with her and tried to pick her up. We were Going to Celebrate Recovery. He supposedly had been sober for months. Anne: We’re gonna get to her whole story, but before we do, I wanna stress that it’s important to understand that a manipulative man can use anything, a recovery program, therapy, even meeting with clergy to manipulate a woman further, and that causes a lot more harm and trauma. So before you start searching for a recovery program for your husband, it is important to consider what his recovery would be for and how abusers manipulate their victims. Most of the time, the therapist will say something like childhood wounds or addiction recovery. When really what you’re actually experiencing is emotional and psychological abuse. And I’ve even interviewed women who have tried to find an abuse program for their husband, and they still tell me the same things. So as you listen to Nancy’s story, I think it will help put into perspective what’s really going on and what steps you wanna take next. When I met him I thought he was a good guy Anne: That’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. It helps women know what’s going on, if he’s really abusive or not. Some women find out he’s not. And then what steps to take to create emotional safety in your life. It’s much faster to figure that out first, before spending tons of time and money in therapy or a recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me program. Living Free total run time is about two hours and 50 minutes, which is much shorter than three or four years to find out it’s not working. So Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Welcome, can you tell us how you met? Nancy: When I met him, he went to church. He served on the worship team, and he could talk like a preacher. So I thought he was a good guy. It was confusing, because we were play wrestling, and I wouldn’t have remembered this except I had written in a journal and I read it after everything fell apart. He held me down and said some things like, did you think you were stronger than me? Did you think I would let you go? It really scared me. I was very close to breaking up with him, but he actually cried and apologized. So I thought, he’s sorry. It’s not gonna happen again, and that sort of thing never happened again. He realized he had to be more subtle. He did tell me about his past sexual history. Mirroring my desire to serve missions Nancy: He was in the Navy and with several prostitutes. And he was honest, it felt like to me at the time. That he struggled with porn. I thought after we married, that wouldn’t be an issue. And honestly, I don’t know that anyone would’ve told me anything different. I wanted to serve in medical missions. He didn’t seem interested in this, so I prayed and left the relationship in God’s hands. I told him about how I prayed. And the next time we got together, he said, “He had been thinking and praying, and he really felt God moving his heart to missions. That everyone always thought he should be a missionary. It really blew me away, because I thought God had answered my prayer really fast. He knew that he was not only lying to me, he was also lying about God, and he chose it. Which makes him a really evil person. In pre-marital counseling, I was clear that I didn’t see myself as a housewife. I wanted things to be equal, and I didn’t plan to stop working. He acted like he was on the same page and that he was fine with this. So we married. Things were not good. In less than a year, he turned me down for sexual intimacy. Which was surprising and incredibly hurtful. Especially when I realized he was looking at porn. We went to see the movie Fireproof, and afterwards he admitted he was taking off his ring to flirt with people. I was trying to be very understanding, but I did feel hurt, and he got angry at me. He said this was the thanks he gets for staying away from porn for a couple weeks, which is not funny, but I’m laughing at the audacity. He Pushed Me to Quit Working While Avoiding Any Real Recovery or Celebrate Recovery Near Me Programs Nancy: I think I blocked a lot of it out, because somehow things were good enough back and forth between nice, the Christian thing, and when he would be not so nice. I didn’t recognize abuse. The only thing I could put my finger on was the sexual things. We never could solve how things were to be run. And now that we had children, he could step away and I would be forced to do more house duties, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Because someone had to do all the things for the children. I would tell him what we had agreed before marriage, and he said, “Yeah, but I thought you would change after we had kids.” Anne: I said the same thing. I said, I’m not gonna cook. And he was like, no problem. Then later told me, I thought you would change. And I’m like, I was so clear. Nancy: Exactly, we’re both honest and open. It’s like, that doesn’t mean I have to change, just ’cause you thought I would change. Well, it did because we had children now that needed to be taken care of. Anne: Right. Nancy: The same thing I said, I didn’t wanna stop working.” And he would constantly try to get me to stop working. I was only working part-time. He wanted me to not have an escape route. We separated, but I was so exhausted and overwhelmed with a baby, 2-year-old, and a 5-year-old. We got back together pretty quickly. Discovering he was flirting with coworker Nancy: A year later, we separated again and went to couples counseling, ’cause I still had not seen how that was harmful. I was really hopeful, which seems funny after just like a week or two of separation. But his coworker called me and told me she had been out with some friends, and he was flirting with her and trying to pick her up. I thought this would be his rock bottom, because he’s almost lost his family. Anyway, we got back together and things were up and down. I was dealing with a lot of anger and depression, social anxiety. At the time, I thought I needed counseling to deal with my issues. We were going to Celebrate Recovery near me. His stated problems in Celebrate Recovery were sex addiction and anger. It’s so crazy knowing that, how could everybody there not believe anything I was saying? He supposedly had been sober for months because of all the addiction model stuff. We agreed that he would tell me if he ever had a slip within a certain amount of time. So at Celebrate Recovery, he went forward for a one-day chip, and that really shocked me because he wasn’t ever gonna tell me. When we agreed that he would. After that we had sex that was definitely, obviously coercive. I don’t think I had the words at the time, but I definitely felt that way because we had an agreement and he didn’t follow it. That was the last time we ever were together. He said he would throw me a 30th birthday party Nancy: I took a step back, and I was observing him because I felt like we were at the best place, and I’m actually an okay person. That means there’s nothing I’ve done wrong, literally. And there’s nothing I can do to change this. It just became increasingly clear to me. So I started looking for more information and came across BTR, but I didn’t listen to the episodes because I saw the word abuse. And thought that doesn’t apply to me. And I found a couple other podcasts. They didn’t fully explain everything, and then a really bad incident happened when I turned 30, a big birthday. Anne: They always do it on birthdays and holidays. Nancy: I know, I had always thrown him birthday parties. He’s an extrovert and that was something that he enjoyed and I didn’t mind, he didn’t throw me anything because I’m more of an introvert. So when I was going to turn 30, I told him that I’d like a birthday party and would like him to throw it for me. I said if he didn’t want to, let me know. ‘Cause it was important enough to me that I would throw it for myself. He said he would throw me the birthday party. But when I wasn’t seeing any preparations, I checked in with him. And the motions he made came across like he was planning a surprise birthday party. Anne: Like, let’s not talk about it. Or you might ruin your surprise. Nancy: Exactly, I had said, “I will throw it for myself.” I repeated that again, that time. He knew. He Claimed He ‘Forgot’ My Birthday While Pretending Recovery Through SAA and Celebrate Recovery Near Me Groups Nancy: So my birthday comes up. I expect a surprise party around any corner. I come to the end of the day and nothing happened, nothing. And his excuse was forgetfulness. Anne: I never gave you the impression I was gonna throw you a party. Nancy: Yeah, It was always that gaslighting and blame shifting. I feel like I dissociated a little bit around that time. ‘Cause it was really hurtful, because I would have thrown it for myself. Anne: And he knew that and he gave you the impression that he was throwing you a party on purpose to ensure that you didn’t have a party. Nancy: Exactly, I actually believed him that it was on accident, but that was just as hurtful. Now, I believe it was fully on purpose. At the time I was going to COSA and he was going to an SAA group. Anne: When she says COSA or SAA, she’s talking about 12-Step recovery for pornography addicts or sexual addicts. There are other programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. And the COSA is a co sex addict’s 12-Step for a wife of an addict, where she basically does the same program he does and tries to fix her character defects. Nancy: Yeah, I’d been talking about giving him another chance to throw me a party, and they said if he already didn’t do it, you should not do that. So I ended up throwing myself a party. After that 30th birthday, I would get down around my birthday every year. I ended up telling him that, not in a way to blame him, because like I said, I didn’t think he had done it on purpose. I just thought I should let him know I wasn’t myself. Recognizing Gaslighting in real time Nancy: And it was the first time I recognized what he was doing in the moment, he started to say. “That had not happened. That didn’t sound like something he would’ve done, that my memory must be a little off.” So many different ways he was trying to convince me that it hadn’t happened, and he couldn’t convince me because I knew it had happened. So he switched tactics and said that maybe he should get counseling for being abused. Anne: He’s claiming that you’re abusing him. Nancy: Exactly, I was so confused. I asked him, “Abuse, what are you talking about? Am I being abusive right now?” And he goes, “No, the abuse I’ve had to endure for the last how many years.” And then I realized oh, that was gaslighting. That’s blame shifting, and I ended up leaving the room and cried on my own. It shook me up that he could take something very vulnerable and turn it on me like that. I was talking about that incident and how he was saying I was abusive and I heard myself saying, “It was surprising he would call me abusive when he’s been so much worse.” And that was the first time I thought maybe he is abusive, and that reminded me about BTR. I thought, let me listen to that, ’cause maybe I can get some insight. That brought me back to listening to the BTR podcast. And I vividly remember I was binging all these episodes, hearing women’s stories. It felt like my life. And it just blew my mind to realize I’ve been abused this whole time. Anne: I’m so sorry. You were experiencing Betrayal Trauma and were not aware that recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me programs wouldn’t help you. Addict model says he’s struggling, he’s not in control Nancy: It made sense. It felt like everything clicked into place. Everything else I was told didn’t make sense. I always talked about stuff. I was always looking for answers. And I never felt like I was codependent or that I needed codependents anonymous. None of that stuff seemed to fit. In fact, the advice I was given, “Don’t pay attention to what he’s doing. Only work on yourself.” While they’re also saying, “Don’t be codependent, ignore what he’s doing,” which just doesn’t work. The addict model, like he’s struggling, he’s trying, he’s not in control. I mean, that’s like step one. You’re powerless to control your behavior. He accepted the addiction model early on, and we were in and out of groups the whole time. But I don’t believe now that he’s an addict, and I don’t think he even thinks he’s an addict. It’s a great excuse to keep doing what you’re doing. Because there’s no accountability, and everyone applauds your efforts. Even if you’re not reaching the goal, you actually have a choice. He would say to me that he could not promise that he would never do any of the sexual stuff again. So it was like basically just saying, I’m gonna be doing this my whole life. Anne: My ex wouldn’t promise either. He said if I promised, “I wouldn’t be on my toes. Like I don’t want to think I couldn’t do that, because then maybe I would be in danger of doing it.” Which doesn’t even make sense. Like I can legit say, I will never have an affair. finding BTR helped me wrap my head around the abuse, Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t Nancy: Right, yeah. I found BTR. And the abuse model is they have a choice, and they’re choosing to be harmful and abusive. All these years he had been a liar. I stepped back and observed behavior for me to fully wrap my head around it. I believe he feels entitled to do what he wants. He doesn’t see people as people. Or maybe it’s just women as women. Objectification is a huge thing. I don’t think he ever saw me as an equal partner or a person. And I don’t believe he ever loved me. I was a desirable object he acquired, and that was it. When I started listening to BTR, it helped me understand abuse and the subtleties of it. Because before, I had only been thinking physical abuse or yelling insults, which my ex did not do. Listening to the stories helped me see how this plays out in marriage, even in a Christian marriage. It was helpful to see the ways men could twist faith things, because many of these men and my ex are very manipulative. Like it has to slowly play out over time to see what they’re doing. And a lot of it goes back to intent, and it’s hard to see intent. It was hard for me to imagine my husband is lying to me. So that was a shift too, to start looking at actions instead of words. BTR gave me a lot of insight into what I was living through and what was helpful, especially getting into the BTR groups. Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t do that. It helps build you up so that you can go through the hard stuff. We were going to counseling around the time I started going to BTR group. Going to couple counseling Nancy: Because of BTR, I had the words for it. I was able to express better what was happening. The counselor didn’t help my situation, of course. Individual counseling and couple counseling are unhelpful, because an abuser’s goal, my ex’s goal, was not to get better. His goal is to get whatever he wants. He’ll say whatever he needs to say to get what he needs from the counselor. We’ve gone to quite a few couple counselors. We would go into a new counselor, and he would bring up a new issue. He had never told me about me. Anne: Suddenly you’re a kleptomaniac or something. Nancy: Yeah, things that he thought I did that were hurtful to him, that I had never heard of before. But I felt so bad that I was hurting him without knowing it. What a callous person I am. Anne: Not knowing he was bearing false witness and that he literally made it up. Nancy: Yeah, completely distracted from why we went to counseling in the first place is sexual issues. Like I would have to be a safe person so he could be honest with me. Because I’m an actual caring person, I would feel like this was an actual issue that I needed to fix. And that is the part about the psychological abuse that is hard to describe. Because a lot of it could sound valid, and I thought these things were valid. But later realizing they were lies. They were lies, because he would’ve said them before. Anne: Exactly. creepy experience with new counselor Nancy: We did an in-home separation, At first. His abuse escalated the freer that I was getting. I never completely stopped working. I got a job and started after the in-home separation. He actually shut off the internet. Luckily, I prepared ahead of time. I had my own phone plan with the hotspot, So I could just switch over and just didn’t even engage with him. It has been a process of combing through my life, and I have wondered that how many lies I won’t even know about or remember. Because, I believed him and he was so good at lying. One of the new things he said was I wasn’t being vocal enough in bed. It felt so humiliating for him to say that to the new counselor. When he had never said that before. This male counselor wanted us to do an exercise right then on the sofa in front of him. He wanted my ex to touch like my foot or my leg, and then slowly move closer to my private areas. And as he moved closer. I was supposed to make more and more noise. Anne: No. Nancy: Isn’t that crazy? Anne: That’s so creepy. Nancy: I did feel incredibly creeped out, and I refused to do it. Anne: Good for you. He said there would be no equality in our marriage – Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t help with that Nancy: I wish I had just walked out, But after we left, I said, “I will never go back to that counselor again.” And we never did. I said, “What I would need to continue in the marriage was for him to be seeing his own personal counselor, to have a full disclosure with a lie detector test.” Which he said no to. And I know now it wouldn’t have been helpful. Just like Celebrate Recovery near me wasn’t helpful. Anne: I know, thank goodness. Nancy: Right. Anne: Mine never did that either. And I think I would’ve just been in the abuse for so much longer had he said yes. Nancy: Right, and then the second thing I said is that, “I wanted equality in our marriage.” And he said no. Anne: He said no, he didn’t want equality? Nancy: Correct. Anne: Wow. Nancy: So I was like, then literally that’s the end of it. And I was going to BTR group. I remember one of the coaches said to me, “It was a blessing that he actually had been honest.” At the time, I didn’t understand, now I do. And I’m so glad I asked those questions. I don’t know why he was honest. There are two possibilities. He didn’t think I would leave, because I hadn’t yet. We’d been married for almost 14 years, and he was only saying what was already true. You don’t need to be perfect to be loved Nancy: I just didn’t realize it was true. Or maybe he did want me to leave. I had some conversations with his mom. Because I found BTR, and surprisingly, she said it made her realize she was in an abusive relationship with my ex’s dad. However, she still felt like I should stay. Because she felt like the Lord had taught her so much and she had grown through all these trials. I have sympathy for her, but it’s so wrong. All of a sudden it just became very clear to me that if I stayed for the kids, it was actually putting them more at risk. And honestly, that conversation solidified that I had to leave for the kids. If you’re not sure yet if your partner is abusive, Just listen to some BTR stories and see what jumps out at you. You are a worthy human being that does not have to be perfect to be loved and treated with respect. Reconciliation is not necessary for forgiveness, and you don’t have to forgive anyone. It’s more of a process that can happen on its own time, and no one should force it. Pay much closer attention to someone’s actions over time than the words they say. And it’s never too late to make different choices when you learn or understand new information. I feel like having to make a choice that is wildly unpopular with people around you. Church, that I had to learn in a new way. Maybe for the first time, to not let what people thought about me affect the decisions that I make that part has been really hard because a church we were going to was not supportive at first. Call from somebody in Celebrate Recovery near me group Nancy: Some of them seemed supportive, and even the ones I thought were supportive, in the end weren’t. I actually got a phone call from somebody in my Celebrate Recovery near me group. She called me up to ask me if I was seeing a counselor. Because I still seemed angry. I was speechless, of course I’m angry. Anne: Yeah Nancy: I didn’t even know how to respond to her. I just told her yes, I’m in BTR group and got off the phone. There’s nothing wrong with being angry about the situation. I feel like church tells women they shouldn’t be angry. But Jesus was angry. There’s nothing wrong with being angry. Anne: Yeah, I feel like if you’re not angry, something’s wrong. Nancy: Right. Anne: I mean, nothing is wrong with you. You might be numb, you might be sad. I went through periods where I wasn’t super angry. I was just really depressed, but on the whole oppressed, abused, exploited people, their anger is from God to help liberate themselves from the oppression. But of course, the abuser does not want you to liberate yourself. He said flat out he didn’t want you to be equal. That is infuriating. Nancy: And now he wanted 50/50 custody. It was very upsetting, because my ex had been very non-helpful around the house and with the kids. It was hard to think that he would want 50/50. Anne: But of course he did. Nancy: I didn’t see that coming, and I wish I had been more prepared and could have been more strategic. Listening to him lie in the courtroom Nancy: I could not wrap my mind around that at the time. I had seen more and more abuse as my eyes were open. So I couldn’t wrap my mind around 50/50 custody. I was under the delusion that justice was in the court system. I found out, even though I know he lies, it was a big shock to listen to him lying in the Courtroom. It’s hard to witness. It’s something I wish I had processed before, because I’m sure that was pointed out to me. But I couldn’t process that as a reality back then. The Living Free Workshop was so helpful. And going to group and getting help constantly. The Living Free Workshop is so different than anything you’ve ever been taught. I don’t know how I would’ve made it through this, honestly. That was another thing that was really helpful. There were some scripts in Living Free to get him on Our Family Wizard, and he actually got on it easily. I was surprised. I didn’t think he would get on as easily as he did, and just not responding in any other way. Anne: That’s the thing, they’re desperate to talk to you. With the workshop, everybody says, how am I gonna make him go on OFW? And if you do the script and stick to it and do not deviate. Legit, don’t deviate. Once you’re on Our Family Wizard, literally block him on your phone, so he has no other way of contacting you. He is desperate to get your attention and your belief, like Living Free says, yeah, they’re so transactional. And if you respond through Our Family Wizard, he will find a way to do it. he performs for others in groups like Celebrate Recovery near me and in court Anne: They’re like, well, this is what I gotta do to talk to her, because I’m blocked otherwise. They will move. It might take a month. I’ve had it take the longest six weeks with one woman that I was working with. Every single time he texted, she said, “Hey, I’ve responded on Our Family Wizard.” Nancy: Right. It felt overwhelming, because he kept sending me long, manipulative messages, but I responded on Our Family Wizard. It only took me once for him to switch. Being on OFW was better. Oh, one of the books BTR recommends, The Woman They Could Not Silence. I read it and that was awesome. It helped open up my mind to spiritual abuse. It’s been inspiring to me this whole time. What she went through being separated from her children. That book has been really inspiring. The thought of leaving them with him, terrifying to me. We went through two rounds of court. He would make it sound like I was controlling and not letting him do things. Like why wouldn’t I let him take the kids to half of the doctor’s appointments when he never came to a pregnancy appointment? And same with field trips. He’ll go on field trips now, and I feel like it’s just to keep me from going. It. He never wanted to before. Anne: If he was actually a good dad, he would’ve been doing it before, but since he’s only doing it now, he is just performing. Nancy: Yes, it’s a performance because he’s getting something out of it from other people, like in in celebrate recovery near me, and it’s punishment for me because he knows how much I like being there for the kids. Reluctance to support anything he can’t control Nancy: When we married, he didn’t want us to do extracurricular activities. He didn’t even want free after school activities, much less anything you would have to pay for. He was only okay with youth group attached to his job, not the free after school activities. But since we’ve been divorced, he has them interested in hockey, which is one of the most expensive and time consuming sports there is. It’s very strange from my entire experience with him. He never talked about hockey, and he never wanted them involved. At the same time, he is not wanting to pay half of necessary expenses, like medical or orchestra uniforms. For a long time, I was not asking for half of necessary expenses. Because I didn’t wanna have to deal with him because he makes it such a struggle. Anne: My ex is exactly like that, exactly. When my book comes out, I’m anxious for you to read it, because it was all about control. Like, if I’m paying you anything or if I’m involved in any way, I have to control it. Nancy: Yeah, like my youngest wanted to do karate. His dad would not participate even when I offered to pay the whole thing. Other son was invited to concert band, and his dad said no. Anne: Think about the power trip that gives him that he’s able to manipulate them away from their natural interests. And maybe hockey is something that he wants to do. Like he thinks karate’s dumb, but he thinks hockey’s interesting. Draining my bank account and controlling my time Nancy: It is a huge expense that is very draining. When he won’t even pay half of an AP test. Anne: And that might be part of it. He’s, let’s pick the most expensive thing to drain her bank account. Nancy: Yeah, it was a double bind to drain my bank account and control my time. And at the same time, if I have to back out of it. He’ll say, sorry, kids, Mom won’t let us go to hockey. Anne: He’s calculating ways to set you up to be the bad guy. Nancy: Yes, he is an expert at setting up situations, so my bank account is being drained, and I cover a hundred percent of their insurance. Anne: With a lot of these post-separation abuse situations. They get the benefits, but they don’t have any of the responsibilities, and they can use it against you, but it never works for you. They can bend the rules in order to benefit them, but you can’t bend the rules. Nancy: In the Living Free Workshop. It was helpful to see how to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage and how it plays out in separation, to find a way out of it. There was one thing you said, and this is when you’re moving away from his harm. You said, “If he escalates, remember that protecting yourself from the harm is not the cause of the harm. Just like evacuating a building was not the cause of the exploding gas lines.” He still wants to get together Nancy: That really hit me. One of the things that keeps haunting me is did I do the right thing? He still tries to get together personally with me. It constantly comes up that he wants to get together for coffee, or would I go to counseling with him, co-parenting counseling. I mostly ignore it at this point because he’s asked so many times. I don’t even answer him. Then if something goes wrong with the money situations or if there’s a point of disagreement, he will say, if you would’ve only met with me like I’ve asked, then this would’ve already been stopped. Anne: Yeah, we could’ve worked it out somehow, no. He would still lie. Nancy: It’s a trap. There’s that little 2% of me left that feels like, well, maybe I should meet with him, but no, it’s a trap. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: Because he never intends to do a nice thing. He just wants to get me in front of him again. I don’t think any good would come of it. Anne: A hundred percent, no. It might seem good, ’cause once you get there, it might seem good. He might like to turn on the manipulative lies to make you feel like he cares. I think one of the most abusive things people can say is, I love you or that I care. So manipulating you in that way is actually dangerous, and that’s probably what would happen. Nancy: I don’t think I could keep a straight face. It would skive me out so bad to be around him and hear stuff like that. Everything he says is the opposite of the truth Anne: Well, it’s just further evidence of his controlling nature, because he desperately wants to hang on to control. And so he’s increasing his lies because it’s getting away from him. That’s definitely a sign that he’s been lying the whole time. Nancy: I completely agree. I know that this is better for them in the long run, but in the short run, that sentence helps me right now. That was probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with, is that he never loved me. He doesn’t love the children. None of it’s real. It’s all lies, and he still does it. It’s mind-boggling. Everything he says is the opposite of what the truth is. He continues lying as he did in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. As we were moving through the separation process, the boys did not want to leave and crying and like holding onto the car seats. It was horrible. I knew if I said anything to him, he wouldn’t care. Any altercation would be scary for the kids. So I started getting third party exchange people through a new church. I actually found a church with a woman pastor, which is quite lovely. The new church was helpful and supportive, and there were several people that would help me with exchanges. And things changed, like taking the Living Free Workshop, and suddenly I felt a lot stronger. I had a new understanding and confidence, so I stopped doing the third party exchanges. He actually met with the principal to try to get the principal to agree with him that I’m not allowed to go into the school on his parenting weeks. like in celebrate recovery near me, A clear example of him lying, controlling and abusing Nancy: Which isn’t true. You’re allowed to visit your kid in the school. Anne: Absolutely. Nancy: Unless there’s a restraining order, which there’s not. We have shared custody, but he made it sound like the principal agreed with him. I didn’t think it was the truth, but it scared me at the time. And we were about to have a party, and I signed up to bring food, so I worried I would be kicked out. But the principal didn’t say anything. Isn’t that a clear example of parental alienation? Anne: It’s a clear way of him undermining your relationship with your kids, lying, controlling, and abusing you. This is how he’s literally abusing you and your children. Nancy: Everybody heard about this incident, and it didn’t matter. He made it sound like he had just been concerned for the children’s wellbeing. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: My being around them upset them. Anne: Lies. That’s the issue they lie in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me and fool the leaders. Nancy: It’s lies at times it is possible that they might be upset, but it’s not because they’re scared of me. It’s more that they’re sad about the situation. My one son, he told me, it makes him sad to see me when he knows he has to go back to his dad’s. My daughter had a phone before we separated, but he wouldn’t allow communication between the boys and me ever. Once, my son called me using his sister’s phone. He was crying. I was only on the phone for about two or three minutes, and then the phone cut off. And they told me when they came back that he had been mad at them for calling me. Even if there is a court order they will find away around it Nancy: He wouldn’t allow them to have a watch phones either. That’s one of the reasons we went back to court. Anne: That’s the problem with court. You think if we get it in writing, then he’ll do it, but it doesn’t matter. He is not gonna do it no matter what. Nancy: This is what I have learned. I don’t ever wanna go back to court again, because it doesn’t help. No matter what you do, they’ll find a new way to cause harm. So there’s no point in any kind of new order. ‘Cause then they’ll find a new way around it. Anne: Exactly. Nancy: I’m still glad I went, because before I had been worried I had to do everything exactly perfectly or something would go wrong. And then I realized he’s doing wrong things on purpose. He just says stuff to get what he wants and nobody cares. So that has relieved a lot of fear. Anne: What would you share with listeners about what you’ve learned so far about finding help, maybe from Celebrate Recovery near me or elsewhere? Nancy: You know, hearing other people’s stories have meant so much to me, Living Free and the BTR coaches set me up for success. They told me to transfer half of our money to a separate bank account before I even told him that I might be leaving. That was incredibly helpful because I’m not sure if it would’ve been easy for me to get the money. I never used the word abuse or narcissism to him. That played out well, because he would’ve twisted it against me. Anne: A hundred percent. Kids need to know what a safe place feels like Nancy: Getting on the parenting app, super helpful, third parties for switches. Finding people to help with the things you need is just a lifesaver. I do feel like it will be better for the kids in the future, because they can be in a peaceful setting that’s not manipulative. So when they’re making decisions. About how they want to live and their future partners, that they know what it feels like to be in a safe place and being able to have discussions with them about men’s and women’s roles. Anne: Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And helping others who are searching, to find something truly helpful. Nancy: Thank you.

I hear this over and over again: betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t just come from discovering a husband’s lies. For many women, it deepens when they reach out for help, and aren’t believed, supported, or protected. Most women respond to betrayal the way they’ve been taught to respond. They… seek counseling. ask spiritual leaders for guidance. work on themselves. try to explain their pain more clearly, more gently, more compassionately. And instead of finding relief, they find silence. Or minimization. Or subtle pressure to endure. For so many women, the most painful betrayal isn’t only what happens at home, it’s what happens when they finally ask for help and realize there’s nowhere safe to land. Before you spend one more day confused, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding what’s happening. That’s why I pulled together Clarity After Betrayal. It’s the starting place women told me they desperately needed before they wasted years trying to make sense of mixed messages, gaslighting, and chaos. When Years of Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Takes a Toll Nikki’s husband betrayed her for years: infidelity, lies, constant emotional attacks. He convinced her she was “too sensitive” and “too needy,” when the real issue was his pattern of betrayal. If you’re thinking his behaviors might amount to emotional abuse here’s some examples of emotional abuse to check out. Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Nikki: Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there. And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess. So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in marriage. Anne: And try to protect your marriage, right? It creates betrayal trauma from infidelity, there are so many things a cheating husband says that harm. Nikki: Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone. Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education Anne: Where do you live in Australia? Nikki: I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania. Anne: Okay, how do you feel like the support is there? Nikki: None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve? Nikki: Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing. Anne: There is so much you don’t know, there are so many powerful truths about emotional abuse. So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too? Nikki: I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage. Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? People say marriage is hard work, and unless it’s abusive it’s just not true. And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving? Nikki: Probably about 20 years ago. Anne: And how long have you been married? Nikki: We’ve been married about 27 years. Anne: Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that? Nikki: I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me. When Betrayal Trauma in Marriage is Getting Worse Anne: And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then. Nikki: No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive. Anne: Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion (probably because no one knows: what is victim blaming) to understand the reality of their situation. Nikki: Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it. And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself from the betrayal trauma in marriage. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is. Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Anne: There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma. Nikki: I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time. Anne: What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook? Nikki: I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life. Anne: So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, can you tell us about your experience? Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Nikki: Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing. Anne: Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. It really helps you recover from betrayal. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed. Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion. Nikki: Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world. Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health Nikki: And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating. Anne: I can imagine. How old are you now? Nikki: I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum. Anne: He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus? Nikki: I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation. And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them. Anne: That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him. Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Nikki: I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work. It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t mean I stop living the best life I can. And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense. Anne: It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry. Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point? Nikki: I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option after betrayal trauma in marriage. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay? Anne: We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately. Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing. And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making? Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion Nikki: Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need. Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around. So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision. Anne: People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second. Nikki: Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it? Anne: It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem. Nikki: You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him. Anne: So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors. Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life Anne: How do you feel right now? Nikki: Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse. He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths. Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life. Anne: Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future? Nikki: I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children. There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him. Anne: Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right? There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem. What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time. Nikki: Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you. Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though. Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: And don’t try and fix him. Anne: Oh, we’ve all done that. Nikki: Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore. Anne: When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it. Nikki: Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants? It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family. Anne: Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement. Nikki: Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off. Anne: Exactly. When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful? Nikki: For me, in the early stages of betrayal trauma in marriage and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at. Anne: That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal. Nikki: To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that. It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all. There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Nikki: Thank you, Anne.

If your husband is constantly angry, you’ve probably tried everything to calm the tension. You stay kind, patient, careful, and endlessly understanding. But what if his irritation and outbursts still never make sense? When his anger erupts out of nowhere, it can function as a tactic to control you. Sudden anger knocks you off balance and makes you doubt yourself. It quietly trains you to walk on eggshells. The more unpredictable he becomes, the more power his anger holds over your choices, your home, and your peace. This pattern feels confusing for many women. He often cycles back to being sweet, apologetic, or even tender. That emotional whiplash erodes your instincts. You start wondering if you imagined the problem, if he is “just stressed,” or if you somehow caused the tension. If you are wondering about emotional abuse  take our free emotional abuse quiz. Why Your Husband Is Constantly Angry: The Hidden Purpose Behind His Rage Anne: Today’s guest, Faith, a member of our community, experienced her husband’s anger and she tried everything she could to help him. Here’s part of her story. Faith: His yelling and everything just got to be so much and I thought why is my husband yelling at me? We went to two different Christian counselors. I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood. And I don’t understand how this is on me when my husband is constantly angry. Anne: If your husband’s anger makes no sense, listen up. Maybe something little sets him off, something that didn’t set him off yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it comes out of nowhere. Like he says, you have the wrong tone, or you used the wrong word. And no matter how calm or kind you are in your attempt to avoid pushing his buttons. He’s still irritated, snappy, or raging, blaming you for something. Control, The Real Reason For His Anger Anne: A lot of women tell me they thought their husband’s anger was about work, stress, financial pressure, but underneath those “reasons”, there’s usually something deeper going on. If he’s constantly angry, his frustration isn’t about any of those things. It’s actually about control. For example, he might use anger to shut down your questions when he hides secret spending or late night behavior he doesn’t wanna explain. He might use it to make you doubt yourself, so you stop suspecting something’s wrong. Or train you to stay quiet, careful, and small, because that keeps him in charge. And just when you start to notice the pattern, he switches. He’s nice again, apologetic, sweet. The man you thought you married. So of course you’re gonna think things are getting better or it won’t happen again. But that’s part of how the lies work. When your husband is constantly angry, his anger controls you through fear, and his apology controls you through hope. Faith lived through this pattern.. From the start of our marriage, his anger got worse. And every time she tried to help, the focus somehow shifted back to her, her childhood, her reactions, her supposed part of the problem. Like so many women, she kept asking, what am I doing wrong? She tried everything, counseling, caregiving, and prayer. While he twisted her every effort to keep her confused about what was going on. Transcript: When your husband is constantly angry Anne: Faith, welcome. Faith: Thank you Anne, it’s good to be here. Anne: So let’s start with your story. Faith: I met my husband in the summer. He was a member of my faith community. And while we were dating, I ignored so many silent red flags in our relationship. I actually even know he had mentioned that he used porn at somebody else’s home, that was a Christian family. And it just all seemed so weird to me. Anne: He’s part of your faith community, what did you think of him at that time? Faith: He was very dynamic, very outgoing. I actually knew that I was lowering my standards as far as some of the things I was looking for by being with him. I knew he had sexual partners prior to me. And that was something important to me. I didn’t want to marry someone who was already sexually active. So I lowered that standard. But I don’t understand why my husband is constantly angry. He drank, he smoked. All those things I wasn’t looking for. But I felt like God wanted me to be with him. Maybe if I influenced and impacted him and his life. Then he would also be a better person. Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulation from the very beginning for a minute. The manipulation begins Anne: Thinking back, when you’re going through it, you don’t recognize this. So this is not something that you would’ve known then. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you were doing the best you could. So when I say this, I’m actually trying to look more at his behaviors than what you were doing. Was there something he did in the beginning to manipulate you to think that? The reason I’m asking is, ’cause in the beginning a lot of men will say things like, “You’re so incredible. You make me a better person. You’re such a good example.” Faith: Well, he did make comments like, I was a good example in his life. Anne: That’s just something that I wanna point out to women. Sometimes you think that it was like a failing on your part, but it’s manipulation on their part from the very beginning. And knowing that helps you heal. ‘Cause you’re like, wait a minute, I didn’t do anything wrong. Part of what we’re going through is trying to realize what actually happened. Faith: We actually broke up twice while dating. We argued a lot, and there were several times that I just couldn’t do it anymore. And again, I felt ignored. There was a lot of anger in him. I always wanted to marry and start a family, I was very young when I met him. I was probably about 19 and I just felt like starting over. This sounds ridiculous, at 21, 22, would just set me back in my timeline. I still felt strongly that I was supposed to be with him. There were some weird, quirky things that we had in common that I took as signs that we should be together. I didn’t see the signs of a toxic relationship. PATTERNS OF CONTROL WHEN A HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY Anne: Did those end up being true later or was he mirroring? Faith: I don’t think that they were enough reason to marry a person, looking back. We had the same first birthday cake, smash cake. We grew up for the first year of our lives on the same street, and didn’t even know it. It was just very weird. Anne: Like it felt cosmic at the time. Faith: But really silly now. It was a whirlwind. I guess I just got caught up in him. Everything became about him. I just thought my husband is constantly angry at me, and it was always something that I did. And I remember one instance where we were at church together, but he was separate from me. He was standing towards the back and I just motioned for him. It was natural to me to just motion and like point to where he could sit next to me. And he became livid with just that simple action, acting like I was treating him like a dog, telling him where to sit. There was an instance where he was very angry. He had an old car that didn’t have air conditioning. He refused to put the windows down for me. We weren’t far from my house, so I remember vividly. I will suck it up. And I’m not letting him know that this gets to me. I could not breathe in the car. I always took blame for his anger Anne: Back then, did you think it was you when your husband is constantly angry? Like if you were different then he wouldn’t be angry, or did you just think like he’s a little crazy? Faith: No, I always viewed it as me. That I made a mistake or I did something, or I did too much, or I was too much. Anne: The whole time you’re trying to improve the situation, you’re doing what any good person would do. You’re like, how can I improve our relationship? So can you talk about the things you tried? It could be anywhere from wearing makeup, to going to couple therapy, to making dinner. It could be any one of various things that we try. Would you take us through all that? Before you discovered his lies. Faith: When he proposed to me. He wanted a quick turnaround. We were engaged for about a year and a half. I actually had some cold feet. But like everything is paid for, and I just kept pushing through. And I got a job and moved out, and he was gonna then move in with me once we were married. Automatically that set me up as a provider. Once we were married, it was about five months in, he worked in a cemetery. He fell into a grave and hurt his back very badly. Anne: Wow, that’s kind of an intense story, sorry. I fell into a grave. Faith: I should also include that I got pregnant right away. There were conversations about him wanting to have a child and immediate. conflict about when to have children Faith: And it was like, no, we should wait. Just get used to being married and being with one another first. I ended up pregnant, and I honestly don’t know how. I don’t know as far as birth control and stuff like that goes. It was a surprise, it was a shock. So here we are, probably a month and a half into our marriage, I find out I’m pregnant. And then five months in, he is hurt. And I’m his caregiver. I can barely even put on my own socks, and I’m having to shower him, wash him, put on his socks, and take him to therapy. And he was on medication. And so I started to blame everything on the medication. I ignored all the signs prior to that. But the medication seemed to make everything worse. I called the police to my house before, because of his verbal aggression. My husband is constantly angry and he’s yelling, and everything just got so much worse. Even after we had our baby, it was awful. My in-laws are emotionally abusive. We actually went to our church. And our pastor recommended a Christian counselor. So we went to two different Christian counselors. I remember first a male and then a female. And I honestly don’t remember, it’s been so long that I don’t remember why we made the switch. But I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood and stuff like that. And I don’t understand how this is becoming turned around on me when my husband is constantly angry. Manipulation Continues with outbursts of anger when your husband is constantly angry Faith: So there were several more outbursts, I would say. I don’t remember what we were fighting about. Our daughter was probably about three years old, and I had her in the shower. He was so angry that he ripped the shower head from the shower. It was one of those hanging ones. I could no longer rinse her or anything like that. Then he left. I didn’t know where he went. That was probably the last outburst I remember as a big fight. And then I think I just learned I’m not gonna push his buttons. Like if I remain calm and stop being the trigger for his anger, then he won’t be angry. Anne: That is so hard, because none of us realize this, that is a form of control. So you’re then living in this box or this glass house a little bit or something. These parameters that you can’t cross, because those are the ones he set up. He built it around you, without you even realizing what had happened. So that you’re limited in what you can do, what you can say, and what you can express. He built all those limitations around you, manipulating you through his anger, because your husband is constantly angry. And that’s not how we view it when we’re going through it. Because we view it as like, if I don’t do this, he won’t get angry. Rather than he got angry on purpose about these things in order to control me. So that control that you were living under, of course you did not realize it. Was he calling you controlling? How was he lying about you at this time? Faith: I definitely know that there were times where he was saying that I was questioning him too much. calling the police didn’t help Anne: The questioning him too much is very common for someone who’s lying a lot. Then your husband is constantly angry. Because they don’t want a lot of questions. They’re very annoying to liars. Faith: Honestly, I can’t remember even what caused the fights. He makes sure now, he even told our kids, that I hit him three times. I do remember fighting him once, I don’t even think I would call it a slap. I think it was more like a push away kind of swat. But I always recognized that I was becoming someone I didn’t like. Regardless of what was going on in the relationship. And I also wanna mention that I learned pretty quickly. He punched a hole in a door. He had threatened verbally to bury me in my backyard. At that point, I did call the police, and he would go outside and wait for them to come. And looking back on that, I can see where police would come see a calm man, and the irrational, crazy woman is in the house, so upset, emotionally distraught. Eventually I also learned not to even call them. Several times it was offered to me to file a PFA, but I knew it would be over. And at that point I think I was in protection of children mode. I knew that if, I filed a PFA… Anne: For our listeners who aren’t aware of what a PFA is, could you define that? Faith: It’s an order of protection from abuse. And my husband told me that if I did that, the relationship would be over. There would be no repairing it. And to have a young child in that, I felt very protective of her. How Anger, Apology, and Control Create a Cycle of Confusion Faith: He was military background, military trained, and so he could disappear with her. There was a strong desire to keep my family together. And a religious belief that was anti-divorce, like divorce was not in the vocabulary. Anne: Did you do any other counseling other than the Christian counseling that you talked about? Faith: No, at some point I called our female counselor late at night one night. And talked with her over the phone because I was so upset. It seemed like I’m just tattling on him and getting no help. It’s not helping. And then, like I said, there was a period where things calmed. It actually seemed like it improved. I tricked myself into thinking everything healed, because his anger lessened. We actually had another child. During that time, I would’ve categorized our relationship as pretty good. There were still gaps. There were still things like he was staying up late at night, not going to bed with me. We weren’t communicating that great. There were missing things. There were pieces of the puzzle of our relationship. It seemed like a big hole that I could not fill. I couldn’t figure out what it was. So we went to Family Life Weekend to Remember, one geared just to us. Then we went back and volunteered. When we volunteered, I thought, and this is it. We could be like a power couple and tell what our story was and how we got through it. How we came about healing, and that was not true at all. Financial Abuse takes off when your husband is constantly angry Anne: He was good at pretending and playing the part. Faith: Yes, and we would come home from those things, like we would learn all of these ways of connection and we would come home from those things and he might get up in the morning and gimme a hug before I left for work the next day. And then nothing after that. I just felt like an invisible person in my own home. Anne: And at this time when your husband is constantly angry, were you still the sole provider? Faith: Yes, I have always been the primary breadwinner. He eventually owned his own business after he got fired. It was a couple years after he started his own business where financial abuse took off. It became apparent that he was paying himself into our joint account for a couple of years. And then suddenly, he actually didn’t discuss it with me. He said, I opened up my own account. And that’s to protect us in case I am sued by anybody.They can’t come after what we have. They can only come after what I have. But that was very much part of what he spent on things. His money was his money. And my money was our money. Anne: Our money, these stories unfortunately all have similar patterns. So I’m guessing, it’s so typical of a man who lies like this. Who’s taking these steps to protect his lies, that the next thing that happens is that you find something out. I’m not sure if that’s where you were going. How He Used Anger to Cover His Lies and Confuse the Truth Faith: Yes, I was. Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about that. Like how did you find out what he actually did with his unaccounted for time? Faith: So ironically, I was going to counseling with my pastor at the time, me individually because something feels off. Feel off, meaning I feel like something is wrong. Something was missing, and it had to be within me. It was my problem to deal with. And so I came home from a counseling session. It probably would’ve been around the fall, Which was the same time my mom was diagnosed with cancer. So all kinds of things in my own personal life are going on. And my husband tells me point blank that he no longer loves me anymore. But he’ll still protect me and die for me. So I take that as a twist on scripture, because in our faith, the man is to be the protector. And I was devastated to hear that. Then shortly after that he told me that he had an issue with porn and that he needed me to help him with that. Anne: What did he say? What lie did he tell, that you needed to help him with? Was it that you needed to give him sex when he wanted, so he didn’t look at porn. How, did he lie to you in that way to manipulate you? Faith: The fact that I had a low drive. I wasn’t giving him enough, so I needed to be there for him when he needed me, So that he didn’t view porn. Finding out about him betraying me Anne: Was this backed up by like the pastor or therapist or anyone else that enabled this type of lie to take root? Faith: I honestly don’t know. Because at this point, I was going to talk with someone. But we were not seeing anyone together. And this was so devastating and embarrassing. I remember feeling so embarrassed. Like who do I talk to? I told my best friend. And I told the pastor that I was talking with for counseling. I’m not gonna say that it didn’t seem like a big deal to them, but it’s like their hands are tied. There’s nothing out there. It was just like, there’s nothing out there for help. I felt so alone. I had nothing. It started to feel like, this is Every Man’s Battle. Anne: Yeah. Faith: And that’s like, yeah, I do have to step up and help him. So I took it upon myself that I communicated with him. I’m just not gonna tell you no. I often slept downstairs. I have several health issues, migraines, vertigo, and it would be compounded sleeping in the same bed with someone else. So I just slept downstairs and he woke me up one night. I was in a dead sleep, so it was like, no. And he went upstairs at that point I’m awake and I decided to follow him and he was in our bedroom with a tablet and I just lost it. I was like, it doesn’t even matter, and I actually left the house for the night. And slept in my car, in my church parking lot. When your husband is constantly angry His deep character shows through Faith: We never discussed our issues. So when I surfaced the next day, I put on a happy face and pretended to be the happy family. He didn’t even ask where I went. There was no worrying, no concern for my wellbeing of where I was for the night. He blamed me that he had to take the kids to soccer hungover. I took that pretty hard too, because his drinking always bothered me. He would use scripture to say, “As long as I’m not drunk, I’m not breaking scripture.” Like you can drink in moderation and be okay. But here he admits he was drunk, and blames me. For having the responsibilities he had as a dad the following day and for his behavior the night before. That’s when some things started to unravel for me as far as his deep character. Who he claims to be is not who he is. I started to definitely put up some walls. I was still not saying no, I just know that it was like a checklist. Just something I have to do. I guess the phrase I wanna use is not rock the boat when my husband is constantly angry. And then, I’m going to give all the credit to God, because the scales started to fall off my eyes. I know many people criticize Focus on the Family in our circles. But God can use anything. I’m a firm believer in that. There was a man named Brant Hansen who was on Focus on the Family on my way to work. And he was talking about men being keepers of the garden, and he came to the conclusion that he was, who his wife needed protection from. Things Start to unravel Faith: It was something about the phrase. That he was willing to die for her, but did he truly cherish and love her? And boy did that phrasing wake me up after hearing what my husband had told me. The Lord started to use that to wake me up to what I was actually living in. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Anne: Right. Faith: Things started to unravel from there. I couldn’t go back. My husband was amping it up as far as like, blaming me for erectile dysfunction. When he was on many medications. He was drinking heavily, none of that could have influenced his inabilities. But it was all my fault. I had actually called off work one day to spend the whole day with him. I came down the steps and he said, “It would be really nice if you put on red lipstick.” So it was funny to me that you mentioned makeup, because I actually don’t wear makeup. It’s never been something I’ve been comfortable doing. I just never liked it. That’s not part of who I am. I don’t even own red lipstick. So nothing happened that day because I was so upset. Anne: Yeah. Faith: I said, I feel like you don’t wanna be with me. You’re asking me to become someone else so that you can be turned on, or whatever it is that you’re looking for. It is not me. Anne: He didn’t even know you well enough to know that you didn’t have any. Faith: Right. Anne: Or alternatively, maybe he did, and he was lying to really hurt you. That could be true too. Wow, I’m so sorry. Feeling like a failure as a wife Faith: I ended up doing the things that he asked me to do. I went and bought lipstick. I went and got some lingerie, and believe it or not, it still did not go well. Anne: Sorry, I believe you. Faith: So that was the last time that we were intimate and I use intimate in the loosest term because there was definitely no real true intimacy probably the entire marriage. I could no longer open myself up and I actually didn’t know the language, so I didn’t know that I was putting in place boundaries. Because I was uncomfortable sharing myself with him. I didn’t know that. At that point, it was like, I’m just a failure as a wife. I can’t do anything to please him, because my husband is constantly angry. Nothing was ever pleasant. So if we were on a date night, he would always bring up a rough topic. On this particular date night, he told me he was looking into getting a penis pump, so that he could do whatever he needed. And prevent prostate cancer. And I have a medical history of HPV, which he’s been my only partner. Anne: Oh, yeah. Faith: So considering that could cause cervical cancer. I seriously couldn’t even believe what was coming out of his mouth. Anne: Right. Finding BTR when your husband is constantly angry Faith: It’s all self, everything that came out of his mouth just sounded so selfish to me anymore. Anne: Yeah, for good reason ‘ cause it was selfish. Faith: So I came across BTR and Betrayal Trauma Group sessions.. I really don’t know how, I think I was just searching best betrayal trauma resources online. I didn’t even know what betrayal trauma was. And I didn’t know that’s what was going on with me. It was definitely a God thing, because it seemed like it came out nowhere and was a much needed resource. Because you were the first to tell me exactly everything that was my experience. And I listen to you when I’m driving. I just found myself crying with you, laughing with you at times too. And I just wanna take this time right now to thank you for putting yourself out there to help others. Because without you, I would still probably think I am crazy. Because many of the groups I participate in still don’t talk about porn use as that betrayal piece. Yes, they recognize it, I think, as contributing to a destructive relationship, would be their terminology. But the pieces that you hit on, it’s exactly everything I experienced, and it just made it all make sense. I’m not crazy. Anne: You’re surviving crazy, but you are not crazy, and so much of it, even the parts that you think maybe you missed, or that you think maybe you allowed it, or something like that. That’s not true. It’s what he’s manipulated you to think because he’s a liar, but not because it’s actually true. And it takes a while to separate all that manipulation from the truth, when your husband is constantly angry,. His problems have nothing to do with you Anne: I’m so grateful my podcast was helpful. Is there anything that you would you like to share with women who are listening? Faith: I think what I would wanna say is that you are worth so much. And it’s not your fault. It’s not on you, that you don’t have to carry the burdens on your shoulders. Anne: Yeah, it is such a burden, when your husband is constantly angry and he’s manipulating you. But then all the extra burden society puts on you. Or therapists who don’t understand the situation or other people who give you the impression that you had something to do with it or that you played a role and you didn’t. The first step to emotional safety is to recognize that it has literally nothing to do with you, even though it affects you very much. Because I think those two juxtaposition things where it’s like it doesn’t have anything to do with you, so it shouldn’t bother you very much. There’s that and that’s not true either. Even though it has nothing to do with you, it does hurt you and it affects you on a very deep level. Well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story. I would love to have you come back in six months or a year to let us know where you are then. Therapy never works with a liar Anne: So are you still married now? What’s your current situation? Faith: My current situation, he actually suggested couple therapy again. I filed for divorce, last year. Our oldest daughter just turned 19, and our youngest is 15. In my state, everything is a 50/50 split. They don’t care what your story is. My daughter started to refuse to go to his house, and so I’m now fighting for her. So far, the judge has heard her without even seeing her, that 50/50 is off the table. And although they are supposed to do counseling, that’s all starting right now, is them doing counseling. Anne: No one should ever, ever be suggesting, not the court, not anyone. Ever, ever be suggesting counseling if a husband is constantly angry or with someone who is abusive. Faith: I know how it went for me. I feel like they’re never going to label him as abusive. It’s never going to happen. It doesn’t matter like what my experiences have been. Anne: No, and it doesn’t matter what anyone’s are. Sorry, I just get livid about it. Faith: I know. Anne: Therapy never works with a liar. It never ever does. It never ever will. You’re only putting someone in harm’s way. Even if you don’t wanna call him an abuser, at the very least he’s a liar. So he is never gonna benefit from therapy. Taking off the mask and finding Family Support when your husband is constantly angry Faith: I have been fortunate to have a dad who believes me and supports me, because I know I lived a lie. I lived with a mask that I presented to the world. And I said, “I’m not going to do that anymore.” When I investigated how bad the situation was to get a divorce, I sat my kids down and I said, “I’m going to be the one who tears our family apart.” I was crying. They looked at each other, smiled and said, “Mom, it’s about time.” So, kids see, kids definitely see. Anne: Well, Faith, you are incredible. Thank you so, so much for coming and sharing your story, and I look forward to you coming back on the podcast to let us know how you’re doing. Thank you so much. Faith: Thank you Anne.

Coercive control is a sustained pattern of controlling a domestic partner. However, coercive control inherently means that it’s not a partnership at all. Here’s why. Coercive Control Definition Coercive control is a sustained pattern of control in marriage through deception. It’s a system of deception and manipulation meant to give one partner power while maintaining the appearance of normalcy, even goodness. The key word is pattern. Often, the spouse being controlled doesn’t recognize it. From the outside, all she sees is a husband who seems kind, composed, spiritual, or self-aware. And coercive control can continue both during marriage and after separation or divorce. If your husband starts to exhibit behaviors he never exhibited before marriage, it’s likely that the man you fell in love with was a mask he wore to coerce you to marry him. This means you may have been experiencing emotional and psychological abuse the entire time. Learning the 19 different types of emotional abuse is essential. Our free emotional abuse quiz will help you see if what you’re experiencing is harmful to you. Why Coercive Control Is So Hard to Identify When your marriage isn’t functioning as a partnership, it can be incredibly difficult to name why. That’s because coercive control isn’t just manipulation, it’s an entire hidden structure. Many men who use coercive control work very hard to conceal it. They may appear: Calm Rational Faithful Engaged in therapy “Trying” Accountable Meanwhile, their wives often feel: Confused Anxious Emotionally exhausted Responsible for everything wrong Like they’re “too sensitive” I’ve interviewed over 200 women who have experienced coercive control in marriage. Many are highly educated. Some work in mental health, law, social work, or education. They understand trauma and communication systems. And almost all of them say: “I don’t know how I missed it.” Here’s the truth: If it’s happening to you, you didn’t miss it. It was purposefully hidden from you. The fundamental tactic of coercive control is deception. Transcript: Coercive Control in Marriage Anne:  Controlling and coercive men maintain power over their wives through deception. Wendy, a member of our community, is here to share her story. Welcome Wendy. Why don’t you start wherever you feel comfortable? Wendy: I was married for about 15 and a half years, and found out a couple years in that he was viewing exploitative content. I was crushed. I remember the first time I found out I went downstairs, and I curled up in a ball on the living room floor. And just crying, and it’s like the only time I remember being that devastated. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He disclosed every so often that he viewed this. And of course, it seemed like it was just that one time. I’m a heavy sleeper, and I distinctly remember waking up a few times, feeling like I had had intercourse, but I didn’t remember. I remember feeling worthless, and I felt like everything in our relationship that was wrong was my fault. Because I didn’t enjoy it with my husband. And that’s when I discovered this whole new world. And I found out way more than I guess I ever wanted to know. The Miserable Experience Caused By Coercive Control you Can’t See Anne: I totally understand. At 30 I was a virgin and so excited. I’m not a prude by any stretch. We married, and after two days of, I was like, this is miserable. I felt like an object. The whole experience, everything around it was awful too. I just felt used and worthless. And then afterward I’d say something like, what are you thinking about? Hoping that he would connect with me in some way. And talk about me or us or something. But pretty much every time he’d say something like bike parts, and he’d be like staring into space. It felt completely disconnected. and. After a while, I was like, this isn’t fun for me at all. And this has nothing to do with me. It’s all about him. From then on, I didn’t want to, but I continued to initiate because I thought I had to. I thought it was my job. I thought it’s like a chore that I check off the list. And I did not realize that that was coercion. Wendy: Right, I enjoyed it when we first married. But then I suffered from what I thought was postpartum depression. Searching For Answers After Marriage Feels Off Wendy: I couldn’t even sleep in our bed. I slept on the couch. So I went to counseling and was better for a while. But I always felt like everything was my fault, and any issues were my fault. And there were people around me saying the same thing. Someone even told me that I should have it with my husband anytime he wanted. And that made me feel terrible. And I didn’t tell my husband about that. I kept that to myself. I just felt so worthless. For a while, I was like, Oh, well, my husband never abused me. I really thought that and then. In the school library online, I was looking for studies on abuse in marriage, and I was coming up empty. I just did a Google search and put in emotional abuse and marriage, and this study came up where they called it wife ##e. And that’s when it hit home, that’s what it was. Once I had that, I found a few more studies on it. I ended up on the National Domestic Violence Hotline website, and it actually has definitions of coercion. Defining What’s Happening To You as Coercive Control Wendy: It talked about coercion. I had mostly experienced the coercion. And then it led me to other resources. As I learned more about this topic, I thought, that is exactly what happened. My husband did do this to me, but it was the coercion part that struck me and hit home. And then he admitted to doing this to me in my sleep. I don’t want other women to experience the same thing I experienced for so long. Anne: It’s absolutely is, and a man can do this to his wife for years without her understanding what’s actually happening. Let’s go back to coercion. Cause it’s something I talk about so much here on the podcast. What did you learn about coercion in your research? Wendy: Sure, the first thing they mention is making you feel like you owe them because you’re married to them. You’re in a relationship, they spent money on you, they bought you a gift. They give you drugs and alcohol to loosen up your inhibitions, playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship. Saying such things as it is a way to prove your love for me. Examples Of Coercion Wendy: If I don’t get it from you, I’ll get it somewhere else. Reacting negatively with sadness, anger, or resentment. If you say no or don’t immediately agree to something. Continuing to pressure you after you say no. Making you feel threatened or afraid of what might happen if you say no. And trying to normalize their expectations. For example, I need it, I’m a man. Mostly it’s like trying to make you feel obligated. to have it with them. Anne: So many women feel obligated to have it with their husbands. They don’t want to, but they’re worried about the consequences if they stopped. Wendy: Right, yeah Anne: On the flip side, they could be abusive to you because they’re hiding things, and maybe hooking up with people. And they’re not initiating with you at all. Because they are spending all their energy outside the marriage Wendy: Right, and actually one of the studies I looked at mentioned that withholding can be a form of abuse. Anne: That’s something the abuser will do. The abuser will say she’s withholding. She’s abusing me. But withholding is completely different than not having it with someone, because they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe. Wendy: Exactly. Anne: This is why this issue is so difficult with therapists or clergy or other people who don’t understand coercion. Is they’ll say, well, wife, you’re the abusive one because you are withholding. Then, because they believe men need it or they’re going to die or something. If you feel uncomfortable having it with him. That justifies him having it with prostitutes or multiple affairs. The Myth of Male “Needs” When Justifing Abuse Anne: A man will not die if he does not have it. If so, what, all boys would die instantly when they were 12 or something? Wendy: Right, yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: So when you feel unsafe and don’t want to have it, and so you don’t. Why would you want to be intimate with your husband if he was yelling at you, for example? The addict or the abuser will accuse you of withholding. You can’t be in a mutually beneficial relationship with someone who is coercive. I don’t love the word consent. You might’ve heard a podcast I did about it previously, where we talk about how consent isn’t exactly the right word to use. Abusers think it’s the yes that matters, not how they get the yes. So they’re willing to lie to you to get a yes. Wendy: Personally, I didn’t realize that a mutual agreement between the partners about what they want needs to happen every time, and just because you’re in a relationship doesn’t automatically give consent. One of the things you talk about is safety. Anne: Yeah, safety is huge. If you want it to be mutually beneficial and emotionally and psychologically safe. Then you need to know the truth. That’s information you’d want to know just to be in a relationship with him, let alone have it with him. Wendy: Right, exactly. And there are lots of women that end up with an STD or an STI, and a lot of times the husband’s like, I don’t know how you got that. You got that from the toilet. You know, Anne, there’s one thing the National Domestic Violence Hotline website says sticks out. Recognizing Manipulation Wendy: It’s not consent if you’re afraid or unable to say no. So it’s not consent if you’re manipulated, pressured, or threatened to say yes. It’s also not consent if you’re unable to legitimately give consent, which includes being asleep, unconscious, or under the influence of conscious altering substances like alcohol. Some prescription medications and other drugs. Anne: Or if he’s purposefully hiding information from you. If he’s lying to you, that’s manipulation. If you think he’ll sleep with someone else, if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. And If you think he’ll divorce you if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. If you think he’ll be sulky all day, if you don’t have it with him, that is a threat. So when it says manipulated, pressured or threatened. To see us think about all the different ways, they threaten us most of the time, extremely subtly. Wendy: Yes, that also goes on in the manipulation. Because they’re already manipulating you. I thought it was interesting, because a lot of times they just talk about the abuses and physical assaults. That’s what TV and movies show. They don’t show this other stuff. And so I thought it was really interesting that the National Domestic Violence Hotline includes that in their information about consent and abuse by coercion. Anne: Yeah, I received a review from a man who said this podcast wasn’t great. Because my definition of abuse is different than the standard definition. And it’s legit, the definition of coercion we use here is the basic definition of coercion that the National Domestic Violence Hotline uses. I think he just doesn’t want to admit that this can happen to women for years by their own husband and not know. Recognizing Marital Coercion Anne: Here’s an example of how women don’t know they’re being harmed by this. I have a wonderful friend. She believes in not having it until marriage, and she was dating someone. And she said something about how she’d gone too far. I was like, what do you mean? And then she said, well, I don’t know. I didn’t want to have it. I kept saying, no, I tried not to, but then we did have it. and she just had this confused look on her face. And I told her what had been happening. And it was like I had punched her in the stomach. It was not until that moment that she realized this, and not just once. Multiple times over the three years she dated him. And I hugged her, and she backed away from me. She was obviously extremely traumatized, and this was a trauma response. And she was having maybe a panic attack. She was breathing heavily. She put her hands on the counter, and it took her a while to calm down. When she did, she said, I didn’t realize until this moment that my boyfriend had done this to me for three years. And so many women tell me the same story about what their husband chose to do to them. Most of the time when I talk to women before they realize what’s happening. I ask, are you being abused? They tell me no. We have a rough marriage, we have communication issues. We have intimacy issues. Educating Women On Emotional Abuse & Coercion Wendy: And I think it makes it harder, because my husband didn’t punch walls. If we got into an argument, he would shut down completely and keep it all in. And so it took me a while to realize that I had been abused. You know, there was gaslighting. He always minimized my feelings, because he didn’t think I should ever be angry about anything. It never dawned on me, I would have answered the same way. I would have said, no, I don’t think I’m being abused. Anne: We need to educate women about this type of abuse, so that women can have words for what’s happening to them. Many people discourage women from thinking their husband is abusive in this way. Because they’re worried about her reporting and then going through a very difficult legal situation. I don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting you report this. You can, if you would like, but the likelihood of him actually being prosecuted or pleading guilty is extremely remote. Learning About Coercive Control If this discussion makes people uncomfortable because they’re like, well, then you have to report. Nothing about this episode is about reporting it. You don’t need to report it. I think knowing what’s happened to you is helpful for healing. The most important thing is that you know what happened. And, that you know the truth. And that’s why it’s so important for women to have a place where they can talk about it. Or talk about when they realized their husband had been doing this to them for years and they didn’t know. The question of whether you’re going to report it or not doesn’t even have to come into the discussion. I created my workshop for women to know what strategic actions to take if they’re experiencing coercive control. Seeking Support & Healing Wendy: Finding somebody to talk to who is going to be supportive, that’s not going to say, “Well, you’re just making that up.” or “There’s no way, because he’s such a good guy.” Reaching out for support is helpful. Really, understanding what it is and what you’ve been through, and knowing that you’re not alone. I think those are the two biggest things that are helpful. Anne: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, your emotional and psychological safety. is our absolute top priority. Our coaches can help you process what you’ve been through and support you as you make your way to emotional safety. In whatever way that’s going to look like in your specific situation. Everybody’s journey looks different, and they’ll support you in what you decide. It’s just so important that when you go for help, you get it from a safe person. Wendy, thank you so much for contacting me. You are so brave, and you can talk about this difficult topic in such an unflinching way. It’s so important that we do. It’s one of the most important things to know about coercive control. And your example will help so many women. So thank you so much for the suggestion to talk about this and for being willing to share your story. I appreciate it so much. Wendy: Awesome, thanks for having me.

Have you thought to yourself, “he says I’m controlling but I’m not.” If so, he’s likely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Here are 3 things to know. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see if he’s emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 1. But What If I’m Actually Controlling? If a man is emotionally mean and wants to keep hurting someone, he might call her actions to feel safe “controlling” to trick her into stopping. This doesn’t mean you should stop looking for the truth or setting boundaries for your emotional safety. To learn about the most strategic ways to deal with his control, check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mfE5cABLp4 You’re not controlling if your desire is simply to keep yourself and your children safe and healthy. 2. Why Does He Say I’m Controlling? An abuser tricks people by lying to his victim and he says i’m controlling but i’m not. Is lying emotional abuse? Yes. It works a lot, and others around him believe his lies. But it’s not controlling to state your opinion or ask another adult to do their share. Do you know what is controlling? Lying and manipulation. The truth is, his accusation is really an admission. He’s the one controlling the narrative through his deceitful communication. 3. His Friends and Family Say His Ex Was Crazy Controlling If a man tells you that his ex was controlling (and has manipulated his friends and family the same way), it’s likely he’s grooming you to not ask too many questions. He usually wants a woman to give him enough space to do secret things he knows are outside her boundaries, like pornography, soliciting prostitutes, or other harmful, abusive behavior. If someone tries to make you leave them alone because they’re hiding things, it could be a warning sign of emotional or mental abuse. They might also try to pressure you into doing things you don’t want to do. If He Says You’re Controlling, You Need Support At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand what’s really going on when he says things like this to create confusion. We’d love to support you in your journey to emotional safety. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more. Transcript: He Says I’m Controlling But I’m Not Anne: In marriage, what’s the difference between controlling and expecting reasonable behavior? If he says I’m controlling but I’m not, here are three signs that he’s actually saying this to maintain control. 1. He calls your boundaries controlling. When you refuse to participate in behavior that you think is unacceptable, whether it’s believing his lies or not asking him questions when you don’t know where he has been, he’s trying to control the way you perceive him. 2. If he’s lying. The purpose of lying is control. And so if he’s lying, he’s the one trying to control you, not the other way around. 3. When your desire is for equality and peace, and his desire is to do what he wants. So if he told you that his ex was controlling when you met, it’s likely he was grooming you to not ask too many questions. Because then, later, when he says ‘I’m controlling, but I’m not,’ he can flip the script and accuse you of being controlling whenever he’s not getting his way. That’s the crazy thing about controlling men. Most women married to men like this don’t want power over, payback or revenge. They just want reasonableness, like honesty and equality. Coercive Control 101: When he says I’m controlling but I’m not Anne: Today I’ll interview Dr. Emma Katz. Here’s a preview of what she’s going to talk about today: Dr. Katz: What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly dealing with the coercive controller. And they don’t want reasonableness or fairness, they want control. He says I’m controlling but I’m not because he wants to enjoy watching you suffer, to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. An entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? For most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Anne: Dr. Katz is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University in the U.K. Her work has shaped understandings of coercive control across the globe. Her book, Coercive Control in Children’s and Mother’s Lives by Oxford University Press is the first academic book to focus on children and coercive control. She brings her research to the public in an accessible and influential way on her platform, Decoding Coercive Control with Dr. Emma Katz, where she writes articles that are read by tens of thousands of people in more than 100 countries around the world. Welcome Dr. Katz. Dr. Katz: Thanks so much for having me. Definition of Coercive control Anne: Thank you for being here. Dr. Katz, let’s start with the definition of coercive control. Dr. Katz: Coercive control is when one person sets up a dynamic in a relationship of “do what I say, or else.” That’s it in a nutshell. To go into it in a bit more detail, it’s when one person is subjecting another to persistent and wide-ranging controlling behavior, controlling multiple aspects of their life. Even though he says I’m controlling but I’m not. And this goes on for a significant period of time, and the perpetrator makes it clear that if you don’t cooperate with them, if you don’t obey them, they’re going to make life very unpleasant, very difficult for you. And within that, there’s a whole range of different things that they’ll do to you if you are not cooperating, from physical violence to sexual violence, to psychological and emotional abuse. To isolating you, to draining you economically, to hurting your loved ones, and many forms of punishment that they’ll inflict on you, if they don’t think you’re cooperating enough with them, obedient enough to them. Anne: Sadly, listeners to this podcast understand this issue on a very personal level, including myself in terms of counter parenting, that I dealt with for eight years post-divorce. It was very, very difficult. Thank goodness I’m past that now. For our listeners, who are victims of their husband’s lying or their ex-husband’s lying, and he is lying a lot to control the narrative. You talk about the difference between that and say, a loving mom who might get angry with her kid for not doing his homework. Control that parents exert over children Anne: I’m just thinking of myself as a single mom. I have two teenage boys, and right now there’s a lot of, get your butt off the couch right now and do your homework right now. And their dad is so nice to them. Like the sticky sweet, super nice. But the way he really does try to control what they do, like actually undermining their homework, getting them not to take baseball, or dropping their instrument lessons. ‘Cause so many of our listeners have been accused. Dr. Katz: So firstly, certainly when we’re a parent, we need to have some control over our children. So, if someone needs to have some control over their children as a parent, that’s healthy and normal. Because obviously children don’t have the development to always make the healthiest and smartest choice. Sometimes they need some guidance on that. And on how to effectively contribute to the household. So as long as what the parent expects is reasonable and in the child’s best interests. That’s fine. Anne: Like going to bed. Dr. Katz: Going to bed, brushing their teeth. Anne: Doing their homework. Dr. Katz: Yeah, not eating junk food all the time, that sort of thing. And being nice to each other, treating each other in a reasonable, fair way. So then, let’s talk about a controlling person. He says I’m controlling but I’m not: Characteristics of A Controlling person Dr. Katz: They may have some controlling tendencies, but you shouldn’t be terrified of them, because if you’re terrified of them, they’re way more than controlling, they’re abusive. A controlling person, you may need to stand up to them quite firmly, and you may need to set some boundaries with them, but they shouldn’t respond by punishing you maliciously, making your life hell. Because again, if they’re punishing you for standing up to them, we’re getting way beyond controlling. We’re getting into abusive. So now let’s talk about coercive controllers. They are way beyond a person with some controlling tendencies, because they are driven to have a lot of control over multiple domains of your life. And they’re not doing it in your best interest, but rather because they want to undermine you. A coercive controller wants to chip away at their targets. We’ve heard expressions like chipping away at a person, death by a thousand cuts. That’s what a coercive controller is trying to do. They’re trying to basically take a person and turn them into a hollowed out puppet on a string who just exists to please and serve them. They view it as their right and entitlement to turn you into a kind of puppet on a string who will just exist to please and serve them and have no needs, rights, dreams or wishes of your own. That’s the difference between like healthy parenting and then being a controlling person. Reasonableness vs. Abuse: What it really means when he says I’m controlling but I’m not Dr. Katz: But you shouldn’t scare people with how controlling you are, and then being a coercive controller, which is highly abusive. Anne: And when he accuses you of being controlling, it’s not because you actually are, it’s because you’re not doing what he wants. He says I’m controlling, but I’m not, simply means he’s losing access to the compliance he expected. Dr. Katz: No, I’m sure they’re just setting reasonable boundaries. So let’s talk about the vast difference in intention between somebody who’s being coercively controlled and a coercive controller. So, somebody who’s being coercively controlled wants fairness. They want the person to behave in a reasonable way that a reasonable person would accept as reasonable. Obviously, it depends on who you are asking. Some people might have unreasonable ideas about how people should behave. So that might be tricky. Like if you’re not sure about it and ask your parents, but your parents aren’t reasonable. And then they say, “No, you sound like you’re being unreasonable.” But you can think about it and think, oh, okay, maybe my parents actually aren’t that unreasonable. Anne: An example with my son, it should not take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Dr. Katz: Yeah. Anne: That’s pretty reasonable. Dr. Katz: Reasonable, yeah. It shouldn’t take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Survivors want a restoration of reasonableness, When Both Care and have respect Dr. Katz: So fairness, we’re talking about, I put into the relationship, and so do you. I can discuss my worries constructively with you, and you can discuss your worries constructively with me. We both care about how each other feels. We both generally want the best for each other. Even when we’re having a big argument, we still respect each other as human beings. We still see that we’re human beings here who just fundamentally have dignity and rights. And we each have a level of respect for each other, even if we don’t like each other much in that moment. So, reasonableness, yeah. What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with this perpetrator, who obviously they may not be seeing as a perpetrator in that moment. It might be your husband or ex-husband, but they want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly having to deal with the coercive controller pushing and pushing and pushing them, and not doing anything reasonably. So, obviously they’re going to get upset, agitated, and frustrated about that, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person. They’re just dealing with a very unreasonable person who has no respect for them. And it’s hard to deal with someone like that. Now the coercive controller, they don’t want reasonableness. They don’t want fairness, they want control and want to enjoy watching you suffer. They want to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. Coercive Control is Domestic Abuse Dr. Katz: They don’t care about how people feel or the impacts of their behavior on the person, beyond being able to manipulate them to get what they want out of them. So an entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? Well, I think for most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Because a coercive controller is usually pretty convinced they’re in the right, and they wouldn’t even stop to self-reflect most of the time on whether they were doing anything wrong. Because they only see their own entitlement to control, and they don’t stick to any reasonable behavior perhaps agreed upon. Don’t blame yourself. These people are just some of the most difficult people on the planet to deal with. Coercive control is part of domestic abuse. And another term coined to try and describe it is intimate partner terrorism or ex-partner terrorism. You could also say, so it’s like they’re your own personal terrorist, trying to control you through fear, trying to control you through power games, trying to stop you from living the normal life that citizens in your community normally live. So when you hear something like “He says I’m controlling, but I’m not,” that’s exactly the type of upside-down dynamic they create. It’s very severe and serious behavior. So perpetrators have to get quite sneaky about what they’re doing. If they really acted as though they were their own dictator, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just forever. Then they would lose a lot of their power to keep that going, because ultimately it would be so horrific to go through all the time that the victim survivors would just run away. Coercive controllers never take proper accountability: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: They would rather be homeless on the street than deal with it. So if they want to keep control of the victim survivor as long as possible. Particularly while the relationship’s still happening. So, they have to disguise what they’re doing by claiming they’re doing it out of kindness, out of protectiveness, out of care. I only do this because I love you. I only do this because I worry about you. I’m doing this in your best interests. You are not very good at doing that. I’m happy to take that burden off you and do that for you. I have to look out for you, et cetera, et cetera. So that it can often be disguised in these ways. And they’re very good at putting blame on the victim survivor, saying things like, “Well, I wouldn’t have reacted that way if you hadn’t been so dah, dah. dah.” So it’s always turning around and blaming the other person. They can never take proper accountability for what they’ve done. They can never just say, yes, that was my fault, and then shut up. Post-separation, they’re just on this mission to punish you as much as possible. For daring to have the strength and bravery to break free of them. Their sense of entitlement cannot bear that you’ve broken free of them. So they’re just on a mission to punish you post-separation. And they just wanna keep up that ability to punish you for as long as they can. And it’s horrific post-separation for victim survivors, because they’ve done what society now tells victim survivors to do and separated. What if the perpetrator won’t leave you alone Dr. Katz: That didn’t used to be the advice. The advice used to be stay in your marriage at all costs, and don’t you dare break up your family. Now, we tend to say, most of us, to victim survivors, the way to go is to separate. But then what if you do that and the perpetrator will not leave you alone? And they won’t leave you alone for five years, for 10 years, 15 years, and so on. We, as a society, have not grappled with that yet. We don’t want to grapple with it. And we don’t want to do anything to inconvenience our predominantly male perpetrators. Because if society wanted to inconvenience them, we would see that happening. We would see a much stronger response to what they do. But we see very little response to what they do. Victim survivors have a terrible difficulty getting any kind of response from the authorities post separation abuse. So it’s enormously difficult to endure and survive. Anne: It’s very interesting, because in some ways it looks like the same to an outsider. For example, many women who come on this podcast share their stories, including me. We wanted that reasonableness. And so insisting on it, or even fighting for it, not physically, but with a verbal, “Hey, we need to do this.” “It might seem to an outsider like we’re haranguing them or refusing to give up, the way coercive control is often misunderstood, and that’s how when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not, it looks reasonable to people who don’t understand what is happening. Abusers are always doing something for a reason Anne: But if the situation is inherently unfair, and if this situation is inherently nonsensical. And she’s trying to make sense of it, and she won’t let go of equality, fairness, or logic. And he wants her to let go of that, so he says I’m controlling but I’m not. From the outside, it looks like the same or almost exactly the same. And people cannot tell the difference. And I like to have people consider what is the aim of it. Like for example, exploitation. Many of these men just don’t want to pay child support, for example. And so because they don’t wanna pay child support, but they can’t technically do that. They’re like, well if I have to pay child support, then I’m going to make it as miserable as possible for her. And maybe someday she’ll just give up and not ask me for child support anymore. No one’s gonna say to the victim, “Hey, maybe let go of the child support.” Because she needs that money. And she’s also legally entitled to it. But he does not think that she is. And so there’s one thing to consider as victims in this scenario is what is their real intent. They’re making your life a living hell, because they don’t want to do something. They don’t wanna pay child support, they don’t wanna pay alimony, they don’t want their son to play baseball, because if their son plays baseball once a week or twice a week, they have to sit and watch this game that they don’t enjoy watching. And they would rather undermine it and tell him, you’re bad at baseball, baseball’s bad for you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, abusers are highly functional in what they’re doing. They’re always doing it for a reason. Lying is central for perpetrators: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and usually the way they do it is through lies. Rather than saying to the kid or the mom or whoever, I don’t enjoy watching my kids’ baseball games, so I’m not going to go. But yeah, shine on, do whatever. They lie and say, baseball’s not good for you. You don’t really wanna play baseball. Your mom is coercing you to play baseball. It’s all this other stuff. I always come back to the lying is the real problem. Because if they told the truth, I don’t want to pay child support, and if I have to, I’m going to wreak havoc on you. Then if they said that in court, then everyone would be like, okay. Dr. Katz: Absolutely right. Yeah. Anne: It’s the lies that are the problem, all the abuse is the problem too. But they just wouldn’t get very far in their abuse if they did not lie. Dr. Katz: You’re so right. They would not get far in their abuse if they did not lie. And lying is so central to what they do. I think we don’t talk enough about how perpetrators are, as you say, tremendous liars. They just lie all the time, and they construct a narrative based on lies, distortions, and twisting things. And in this narrative, they’re a good person, and they’re doing nothing wrong. Everyone else is crazy, unreasonable, and horrible to them. And as you say, they’re not admitting to what they’re doing. Imagine, people say, “Oh, you picked the wrong guy.” But imagine if they stood up on a first date and said, “My intention is to hollow you out, to enrich myself at your expense. When He says I’m controlling but I’m not: D.A.R.V.O. explained in real life Dr. Katz: So after 10 years with me, you would be very poor and have few economic assets, and I would be much richer and would’ve siphoned off your assets. That should been yours. Anne: Right, exploited you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, I’m going to exploit you for 10 years, yeah. I’m going to expect far more with you than I’m willing to give myself. My plan is to ensure that you never have a strong relationship with your children, because that would make you too happy, and I don’t want to see that. So if we have children together, I’m going to make sure to sabotage your relationship with your children as often as possible. Imagine if they made that speech on the first date, and that is their intention, and they’ve probably done it before. Then obviously everyone would get up and run for the hills, but they lie and disguise. So lying is so central to what they do. And also, we see this use of DARVO. So hopefully most of your listeners are familiar with this concept of DARVO: deny, attack, reverse victim and offender, D-A-R-V-O. Again, this lying is central to DARVO. The perpetrator will deny that they were abusive. Say, “Oh, I never did that.” Or, “I only did that because I was provoked.” And then they’ll turn around and try and attack the victim’s character so that people won’t find them credible anymore. And very often that’s along the lines of, she’s crazy. She’s my crazy, psycho ex. They attack the credibility of the victim Dr. Katz: She’s unreasonable. She’s got a mental health disorder. They’ll throw around all these sort of mental health labels. Like she’s got narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, et cetera. Even though she wouldn’t have been diagnosed with any of these things. And oh, she’s mean, she’s a really nasty person. Everyone hates her, etc. So they attack the credibility of the victim. So that people won’t take them seriously, won’t believe them, will have major doubts in their minds about their believability. And then they try and reverse victim and offender. So, I’m not the bad guy here, but she is. She’s the one who’s actually been horrible to me for all these years. And then a big long list of twists and distortions of things, or just outright lies of things that they think the victim survivor’s done. Meanwhile, constantly playing down what they’ve done. So by the time people hear all this DARVO narrative from perpetrators. Some people can see through it, but most of the time people don’t know what to believe, and they don’t know how to unpick all this. And what people usually do in response to DARVO is think, that sounds messy. It sounds like they were both horrible. So I’m just not going to get involved, and I’m not going to stand up for this victim survivor, and I’m not going to stand against this perpetrator. Because I can’t even tell who’s right and who’s wrong. So I’m just gonna walk away. And then when people do that, they leave the perpetrator with all the power. The victim has no one to support her Dr. Katz: And the victim survivor, with no one supporting them. And that power imbalance between them that the perpetrator’s been so clever as to build up over the years, there’s no one there challenging that. Because everyone’s been put off from getting involved by the DARVO. So that can often be the case. That can often be what ends up happening. It’s devastating to people. So one message I would always give people is to try and educate those around them on DARVO tactics. So when it happens, people will be more able to see through it. . But I think if we all have more awareness of how common DARVO tactics are, then they’ll be a little bit less effective. Anne: Yeah, one thing I try to do here at BTR and through our services is give women confidence. So often when women sense something’s wrong. But they don’t know that he’s lying, and no one else does either. They don’t recognize they’re a victim of his emotional and psychological abuse. No one else does, either. They may go to a couple therapist, or often sex addiction or pornography addiction recovery. That makes things even more complex and they get blamed even more. And they’re going because they need help. Most of the time it’s the victims who set these appointments. It’s women who wanna know what’s going on? How can I fix this? I would love for everyone listening to know that you know enough in your own heart and in your own mind, and it’s great to get validation. And hopefully you can get it from this podcast and from Dr. Katz and all the other wonderful domestic abuse advocates out there and feel that. Couple therapists or addiction therapists can’t identify the abuse: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: If you don’t know what’s going on, and go to a couple therapist or addiction therapist or some program, like a marriage intensive. They will not identify this for you. And rather than confirming what you already know, what you sense. The gaslighting that’s going to occur, and the DARVO will start to knock down your sense of confidence. And he keeps you in the dark longer when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I wrote one of my Substack articles in February about how family therapy and coercive control is a match made in hell. And I would also say couples counseling, and anything like that. Because most therapists have had very little or indeed no training on coercive control as part of their degree they took in psychology. Or any kind of qualifications they did to enable them to practice counseling or psychology or whatever it’s that they’re doing. So it’s unlikely they have any knowledge of coercive control. And if they do, it may not be sufficient knowledge. It may not be from good sources. So they might think they know something about it, but what they know is maybe old fashioned stuff, maybe quite victim blaming. It’s just not good information to base practice upon in the current day. So yes, if you go to somebody wearing the hat of a professional, but they know nothing about coercive control. They can’t recognize it, can’t see that it’s happening right there in their office. They don’t have the training necessary to make sense of what they’re seeing. Then yes, that’s just going to leave the victim survivor thinking they were wrong to ever think this was a serious and abusive situation that their perpetrator was subjecting them to. The premise of couple therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship Dr. Katz: They’re just gonna walk out thinking, it sounds like maybe I’m to blame and maybe I can fix this. Maybe I need to compromise more, sacrifice more, and try harder. Because that’s what the therapist probably will be set up to suggest. So, couples therapists are not there to deal with abuse. They shouldn’t be seeing people where one person’s abusing the other. They really shouldn’t be doing that. The whole premise of couples therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship, and also that both partners are willing to deal with the problems. And that they both want to get to a healthier place, so it is not set up for coercive control situations at all. And the same with family therapy. The idea of family therapy is that everyone who’s going to that is contributing to the problem and everyone has a sort of genuine good intention to try and sort it out. And when you have an abuse perpetrator, that is not the case whatsoever. Anne: No, and if they’re lying they’ll go to couple therapy and they will say they are there because they want to improve the situation. Again, if they went in and said, “There’s no way I’m gonna change my tactics. I’m a liar and it works really good and I can exploit her all the time.” It doesn’t matter what proof you have. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got some checklist and you’re like, look at all these things on the checklist, you’re doing all these. They never will do that because they are inherently a liar. Couple therapy with an abuser can keep you stuck Anne: So in that session, they’re like, of course I’m here. Of course I wanna make this better, of course I’ll compromise. I will do this and this, and then I really need her to do this, this and this. And he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. He’s never gonna do the thing he just said he is gonna do, but the therapist is like, wow, he really wants to be here. He cares about his marriage. He wants to make this work. They don’t have the frame of reference to understand that he is literally lying to her and the therapist. So, it’s a very dangerous situation when she also does not know. Luckily, I’ve had a few people tell me they listened to my podcast. They weren’t sure, but in the back of their mind they were thinking, “Okay, He says I’m controlling but I’m not. And she said it’s bad, but I don’t really know.” Thank goodness, because they had that heads up, they could see what was going on. Whereas other women who don’t know what’s happening and the therapist doesn’t know what’s happening. Sometimes get stuck in that gaslighting world for five years, 10 years, 20 years of this type of couple therapy, until they realize he’s been lying the entire time. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I think that going to therapy with your abuser can keep you stuck for another five or 10 years. It can be devastating. It may keep you stuck forever. You may never recover from it. Hopefully, that’s infrequently the case. But for some people, we know they never escape. And they’re with that perpetrator till the day they die. women are profoundly impacted by coercive control: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and I think a lot of times it’s ’cause they don’t know. I wanna credit all women for doing that, because they believe couple therapy will improve it, because everybody says that. It’s common advice. So they’re trying to get help. They are trying to improve their situation. They’re not dumb, they’re smart. That’s what a smart person does. A smart person knows they’re in over their head, and a smart person goes for help. The problem is that they don’t say I am an abuse victim, ’cause they don’t know. The therapist also does not identify it, and that is not the victim’s fault. Dr. Katz: Especially if the perpetrator’s clever to never be physically violent. Most perpetrators are intimidating. They shout in your face, they glare at you. They might kick the furniture, they might throw objects around, but not actually at you. But they send you the message, you better cooperate with me, or else next time I’ll be kicking you, not this sofa. But if they don’t actually cross the line into attacking you, then a lot of women are uncomfortable labeling that abuse. Because we’ve been taught for so long that abuse is violence, black eyes, broken bones. And abuse needs that physical element to be real. And that’s not the case at all. We see that women are just as profoundly impacted by non-physical coercive control. That is really severe, and limits their life to a great extent. We’re seeing these women with the same kinds of distress and trauma as those who’ve been physically hurt. Women do their best with the information they have Dr. Katz: So it’s as you say, women who are going through this, I would never ever say they were dumb. On the contrary, they’re smart. They’re doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the pieces of the puzzle they can see. They’re not a mind reader. They can’t tell what their perpetrator is actually thinking. So they do their best with the information they have. Meanwhile, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I’m adamant that victim survivors are simply ordinary people who had the misfortune to meet a perpetrator and maybe to meet more than one perpetrator, because for lots of people, this happens more than once in their lifetime. And that’s not because there was something wrong with them, but just because there are an extraordinarily high number of abusers out there. Our society is frankly flooded with them. For example, one in five men in America admits physically attacking their partner or wife. Research and surveys have found that one third of college men would have sex with a woman against her will if nobody found out, and there wouldn’t be any consequences for them. So that’s one third of our college men who say yes. They would actually be happy to rape a woman if they could get away with it. One third of college men would coerce women Dr. Katz: Researchers didn’t use the word rape, because that’s a very particular word that makes people have a very particular reaction. But they said sex against a woman’s will, which is rape. And a third of them said, yes, they’d be happy to do that if they could get away with it. if you’ve had the misfortune to be in a marriage with one, that’s not because there was something particularly wrong with you. You were just an ordinary person who had the misfortune to meet one of these abusers. Anne: Yeah, in my opinion, lying is the most common type of sexual coercion. They know that if they said, “I’m gonna take you on this date, I’m gonna fake I like everything you like, I’m gonna look you in the eyes. I’m gonna give you compliments. I only want to have sex with you, and then I never wanna see you again.” Then when he gets “consent.” She says yes to sex under the guise of him actually liking her. That is sexual coercion. She never hears from him again, and it’s like that was confusing. We hit it off. He seemed to like me. We had everything in common. I would submit that in many of those cases it was that he was just mirroring, grooming, lying to get you to say yes. Thinking the yes means it’s okay. If you say yes, then win-win, right? It’s what everybody wanted. It’s not wrong if she says yes, kind of an idea. And it’s very wrong, and it’s sexual coercion, which is rape, essentially. Dr. Katz: Yes, there are all sorts of circumstances in which people can say yes, and it’s valid or invalid. When someone is lying to you it’s not a valid yes: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: So, if you’re saying yes, because you have the genuine information about what’s going on, and you’re saying yes of your own free will because you are enthusiastic about what’s gonna happen. And if you’re gonna participate in that with enthusiasm, then that’s a valid yes. But if you don’t have all the information, if someone’s lying to you and deceiving you, and so you’re actually acting on false information with your, “Yes.” Your yes is coming from a place where you don’t understand the full picture of what’s going on, then I don’t think that’s a valid yes. Anne: No matter how enthusiastic she is. Because she might be extremely enthusiastic based on his lies. But that doesn’t mean anything. Dr. Katz: No, like you say, it needs to be based on correct, truthful information to be valid. We might be enthusiastic about signing a contract for a new phone, because we think we know what this contract says. But if we actually read the contract and found it was full of lies, something very different’s gonna happen. And we’re going to be robbed of our money, given a bad deal, and ripped off for this phone. Then obviously, our enthusiasm would not have been there had we known that. Anne: Right. Dr. Katz: And also, to give a valid yes, you need to be comfortable to say no. If you’re scared of saying no, that’s coercive Dr. Katz: If you’re in any way scared of saying no. If saying no will lead to hours and hours of sulking, guilt tripping, pushing, asking you over and over again, trying to turn your no into a yes. Then if it’s in those sorts of circumstances, you don’t have the option to say no easily. So a lot of the time people will say yes, because they know that saying no is too hard. There’s too much pushback. So they say yes. But if they really had a free choice, they wouldn’t be saying yes. And for me, the yes is invalid, because you didn’t have the proper choice. Similarly with sexual coercion, if you really wanted to say no, but you couldn’t because the pushback would be so bad, then it’s not a proper yes. And then it is rape, or sexual assault, depending on what then happens. I think that’s a tough conversation. Anne: Yeah, I think there’s another element to this, which is how abusers gaslight victims & advocates. That is, maybe even if he’s not pressuring her, if she thinks it’s my duty as a wife to have sex. It’s often maybe a faith that might tell her, “You need to submit to your husband’s sexual desires.” Or maybe someone who’s like, “If he doesn’t have sex regularly, he’ll maybe go have an affair.” Or, “He’ll have sex with someone else.” Or something like that. So even if he’s pressing her and he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. If she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. If he chooses to have an affair, that has nothing to do with you saying no Anne: But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. Even if he’s not pressing her to do it, if she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. If you don’t wanna have sex for any reason, it doesn’t even matter. If he chooses to use porn or have an affair, that literally has nothing to do with you saying no, because you didn’t wanna have sex. But this, it’s your fault that he did this thing that hurt you when you said no. So many women in our community are told like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen if you didn’t wanna have sex with him? Of course, he was gonna go use porn or solicit a prostitute or have an affair or whatever.” Not realizing that what he does is his choice completely independently. This doesn’t happen that often. ‘Cause I, I don’t interact with single men very much, but if I do and they say something like, “Oh, my ex-wife, she was just frigid and she wouldn’t give me sex.” I always say, “Oh, I am so glad. That’s great. ‘Cause women should never have sex when they don’t want to.I’m glad you were married to such an awesome person.” he says i’m controlling but i’m not: I’m the terrible person when I refuse Anne: And they literally have no idea what to say. They’re like, I don’t even know how to react. Dr. Katz: That’s awesome. I wish I could be there to see that when they react that way. Because I think this is a related point. Which is, what is wrong with men who are having sex with women who are not enthusiastic about what’s happening? That is so disgusting. Why would you want to be intimate with another person’s body in that way? When they’re just lying there and thinking when it’s going to be over. You know that even if they’re putting up an act to seem enthusiastic. But you just coerce that act out of them, because before you’ve complained, they’re just lying there. So that you pressured them to give an appearance of enthusiasm. When you know they’re not enthusiastic genuinely. What is wrong with people who want to have sex under those circumstances? I will never understand that, and I find it so gross and awful. Anne: I remember telling my ex, ’cause sex with him was just miserable. And I told people about it, and that made me the terrible person, because I was like, “Yeah, sex with him stinks.” And that really hurt his feelings. And I was like, “It’s not that fun.” I didn’t realize what was going on. So I was kind of flippant about stuff. But I was very open about it. Do all of the reasons or excuses make sense? Anne: So just to skip ahead for a minute, when I realized it was abuse, no one took me seriously because I was so open about everything. They were like, “Well, you can’t be an abuse victim because you’re not mousy or quiet or anything.” But I told him once, “Do you think I could just read a book? Do you think I could maybe prop it open and you could be having sex, but I could be reading.” And I was a little bit joking, but not really. And instead of being like, wow, what’s going on? I don’t remember what he said, but he didn’t respond in a way that made me feel like he really would care that much if I was reading. And I think that’s the point you’re getting at. Is like what? Like that is so crazy. The conversations that women in this situation have. Whether it be about sex or about him yelling or weeding or whatever. You think about the conversations and if women are still in it and maybe they’re going to couple therapy. Maybe someone is saying, “Well, let’s get to the heart of his childhood trauma.” And maybe why he said this or something. But if you can take just one step back or have a little bit of an objective point of view and realize like, this is crazy pants. Anyway, thinking about that, it’s important as women listen to think, wait a minute. All these reasons or excuses, do they even make sense when he says I’m controlling but I’m not? Dr. Katz: It’s so hard to see it when you’re in proximity. Perspective from depersonalizing the situation Dr. Katz: Maybe something that might be helpful is to imagine this conversation among hypothetical friends you might make up in your head. And run this conversation. My hypothetical friends who are married, they had this conversation that mirrored the conversation I’ve just had with my partner or husband. What would I make of this if this was happening to other people? What would that mean if somebody said this? So, what does that say about them as a person, where they’re at, and what their mental state is? And if someone else says this, how would I understand that if it was not me, but someone else? And just to try and take that kind of, like you say, that step back, depersonalize it a little bit, that can be useful. I think I’ll reiterate that. The people being abused have done nothing wrong. And I don’t think there’s anything abnormal about them. Sometimes we hear the most appallingly victim blaming things, even from people who say, “Oh, I’m not victim blaming.” And he says I’m controlling but I’m not. People say you need to take accountability for your part in the abuse. No, you don’t. You were looking for a normal, healthy, loving relationship, and you got served a load of lies and loads of abuse. And nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault, you don’t need to take accountability for any of that. Human nature binds us. So for most of us, we’re bound by the messages that we get from our society. women are encouraged by society to be kind: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: It will take us a long time to figure out that we’re being abused because we don’t want to think that’s happening to us. We don’t want to think that particular script is suddenly running in our lives. We don’t want to reinterpret a situation that we thought we understood through the lens of, well, maybe this is abuse, because that’s tough. Most people, understandably, don’t want to do that. So it takes people a long time to get to that place. That’s human nature, and that’s the way our society is set up. People are not encouraged to make that assumption quickly, “Oh, this is abuse.” They’re encouraged to be kind and considerate, to have empathy even if your husband has no empathy, and to be self-sacrificing, and to try and make things work. Especially women are encouraged to be like that, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of or to blame yourself for if it took a long time to get to that place. You’re not alone, because that’s what happens to pretty much everyone. I just think people say things like, “Oh, you must have attracted the abuser into your life,” or “you teach people how to treat you.” Or he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. And I think those things are horribly victim blaming statements. And I reject them completely. I think that, as I say, we’re all doing our best here in a society that is pretty much flooded with abusive people. There are far too many of them. They’re not one in a hundred, they’re perhaps one in two, one in three, one in four. There are many abusive people out there, especially unfortunately, men willing to be abusive to women. Obviously, it can happen the other way around, but coercive control is a male dominated crime. Coercive control is a crime in the UK Dr. Katz: I’m speaking to you from the UK, where we have made coercive control a crime. I think that is the case in a handful of American states and a couple of Australian states. It’s patchy, in a lot of places it’s not a crime yet. But I see it as a crime. I just wanna say all that. I think victims and survivors really deserve so much more credit than they’re given. Like you say, people are often very negative about victim survivors. Actually, you’re just a completely ordinary person who’s had to survive something really horrific. And anyone who survived that I think is doing amazing. Even if you’re only hanging on by your fingernails, even if you feel like you’re only surviving by a very thin margin, the fact that you are still surviving in any circumstances in my book means you are awesome. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Katz. I really appreciate your work, and it’s so wonderful to meet another woman in this fight to protect victims and help them when he says I’m controlling but I’m not. So thank you so much. Dr. Katz: Ah, well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

You’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. If you’re searching for a ‘prayer for my husband’ because you’ve been told that if you have enough faith, you can change him, you’re not alone. But here’s what most people don’t tell you… 5 THINGS TO CONSIDER AS YOU FIND A ‘PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND’ TO HELP HIM CHANGE 1. You’re Faith is Enough There’s something many faithful women are never told.The problem isn’t your faith. The problem is how your strong and incredible faith is being used, by people or systems, to confuse you instead of help you feel the love God has for you. 2. Prayer is Always Good, and God Loves YOUGod hears your prayers. He wants YOU to be emotionally safe and have a peaceful home. He may be leading you to see that this might not be possible if your husband is lying and refusing to follow the principles if he’s only pretending to believe. 3. The Harmful Message Behind “Pray Harder”When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, “Just have more faith” or “You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”, it’s spiritual bypass. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless. The interview below will cover why this is so harmful. 4. You’re allowed to be angry.Your anger about your husband’s mistreatment of you isn’t a lack of faith. It’s likely God’s way of warning you of danger. 5. God Hasn’t Abandoned YouIf you feel like God isn’t answering your prayers for your husband to change, it might be because your husband doesn’t want to change, but he’s lying to you about it. That means he’s lying to God too. Your husband may be blocking you from feeling God’s love for YOU. If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, my workshop will help you determine if you’re husband is lying about his faith in God to keep you from knowing his true intentions. “The More I Pray The Worse My Husband Gets” For many women, it might feel like “the more I pray the worse my husband gets.” If you’re feeling this way, here are 8 things to consider. 1. If Your Prayers Aren’t Being Answered, Maybe They ARE Being Answered In the silent moments of prayer, many victims of emotional abuse question, “Does God even care about me?” or “Why won’t He answer my prayers?” It’s a painful place to be, feeling as if divine help is just out of reach. However, expressing raw, honest emotions through prayer, including anger, can be a powerful way to stay spiritually connected and grounded in your reality. If you’re husband is getting worse, consider that perhaps God is SHOWING you your husband’s true character. Perhaps God wants you to see who your husband really is, so you can make decisions that will lead to your emotional safety. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women strategies to SEE the truth of her husband’s character. 2. Telling a Victim of Emotional Abuse That Prayer Alone Can Change Her Husband is Victim Blaming Victims often hear clergy or friends say things that aren’t helpful. Telling a victim of abuse that prayer can change her abuser, is so wrong, that’s why it’s so important to recognize victim blaming. If a victim hears this, she may feel like it’s her fault she’s emotionally abused by her husband. Nothing is farther from the truth. Consider that God may be trying to tell you that there’s nothing you can do about his character if you’re praying and feeling like God isn’t answering. 3. God Doesn’t Want You to Reconcile With Wickedness Reconciliation with an emotionally abusive person isn’t safe for you emotionally. Throughout scriputure, God continually asks the righteous to separate themselves from wickedness. If you feel like, “the more I pray, the worse my husband gets,” consider studying these concepts in scripture: deliverance, separation from wickedness, and departing from wickedness. What do the scriptures say the righteous should do when they encounter evil? 4. Praying The You Can Forgive Might Mean Something Different Than You Think In the scriptures, there are multiple times where the word forgiveness is paired with the concept of debt. Matthew 6:12 –forgive your debtors. If your husband owes you fidelity, love, and loyalty, what happens if you forgive him of that debt to you? That would enable you to move away from him (not closer). Consider the debt your husband owes you, and how forgiving him of any debt will help you create distance between yourself and the harm he causes in your life. 5. Try Praying For Yourself Shift the focus of your prayers from your husband to yourself. Ask for strength, courage, and clarity. This self-focused prayer can empower you to make decisions that are right for you and your children. We’ve also been commanded to pray for our enemies and those who despitefully use us, but scriptures admonishing us to do that don’t ask us to be in proximity to our enemies or subject ourselves to those who despitefully use us. 6. Pray For Emotional Safety Pray for the emotional safety. To be emotionally safe means to exist in an environment where one feels supported, understood, and accepted without fear. If someone is lying to you, it’s not an emotionally safe situation. Trust and respect are necessary for emotional safety. If your husband lies to you, consider how limiting your exposure to his lies could help you. 7. Pray To Be Shown Correct and True Information Many women who are being emotionally abused by their husband are unaware of what’s going on because they haven’t been educated about abuse. To paraphrase Hosea 4:6 – My daughters are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Clergy and therapists are sadly not aware of how to assess for emotional abuse and genenrally give bad counsel to women with emotionally abusive husbands. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a great way to learn about what an emotionally abusive husband looks and sounds like, so you have the right information. 8. Pray to Be Led To The Right Support Feeling abandoned by God can make life seem impossibly dark. It’s easy to feel as though the suffering will never end. You’re not alone. His emotional abuse has isolated you, but reaching out for support can bring light back into your life. Seeking support is vital for healing. Pray for guidance to find the right people and resources that can help you on your journey. Whether it’s a support group, therapist, or community resource, the right support can make all the difference. Our online support group for victims of betrayal meet daily in every single time zone to provide the community, validation, and compassion that victims need. You deserve peace. That’s why the Savior came – to deliver us from evil and bring us peace. Transcript: When Praying For My Husband Isn’t Working Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common. We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. One of the most common ways it shows up is when abusers—sometimes supported by clergy or even therapists—frame the solution as simply offering prayer for my husband to change. That’s why there are so many effects of spiritual abuse as well. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND WHEN I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO Tracy: Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education. So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me. Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma. Understanding HOW Prayer for My Husband BECAME SPIRITUAL BYPASSING Tracy: Here’s where prayer for my husband got tricky. While it worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it became a form of spiritual bypassing and it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation. I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that. I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour. And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time. This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT Prayer for My Husband: the Second D-Day Reality Check Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along. The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. He was warning me. After that first D-day, prayer for my husband became a constant in my life. I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if my husband’s lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? THE IMPACT OF DECEPTION ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done. My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason. Prayer for MY Husband BEFORE MARRIAGE: When Something FeLT Off Tracy: I was careful and cautious about marrying, and I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith. So, you know, I said, yes. Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography. She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours. Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety, so I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything specific to point to. And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged. When Others’ Advice Overrides Intuition and Prayer for my Husband Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings. And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work. It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer for my husband. Trusting God When THE Answers TO PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND ChangeD Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous. I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way. I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience in prayer for my husband. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience. And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives. Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books. Endings CAN Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change. I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and the answer to prayer for my husband may change. Does that make sense? Anne: It does. Because many women think back to the answer to their prayers and think, but I’m supposed to be with him. Instead of saying, I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be tolerate abuse. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past. Anne: For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him. He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil. SPIRITUAL PERFORMANCE V. REAL CHANGE Anne: Let’s talk about how prayer for my husband is problematic when a man exhibiting abusive behaviors. Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day. He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life. He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No. He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me. But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND AND A False Sense Of Recovery Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done. Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of spiritual bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not. Anne: A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week, but then you’re not safe yet. Instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. I’m still in prayer for my husband and hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future. Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us. WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND IS USED TO DISMISS ACCOUNTABILITY Tracy: When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now? Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you should stay together after infidelity isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?” They’re imposing what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs into prayer for my husband as a legitimate solution to abuse. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain. Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS’ ADVICE EnabLES Abuse Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away. And they tell wives to pray harder. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive. Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse. Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse. FORMS OF VICTIM BLAMING IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything I feel or experience originates with my own thoughts, so that I am creating my feelings with my thoughts and prayer for my husband. That nothing is happening to us from the outside. That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal. So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong. Debunking THE MYTH “We Create Our Own Reality” THROUGH PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if prayer for my husband is good enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough. Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way. Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe. Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations. And so with spiritual bypass, like prayer for my husband, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on we can transcend the human experience, basically. Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience. Anne: It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety. So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation. Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. THE Danger OF TOXIC POSITIVITY IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing my emotions, feeling guilty for the negative emotions I feel, only positive prayer for my husband, and minimizing other people’s experiences. Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions. When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing. I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful. The Need For Safety & Stability Tracy: So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? Because I’m obsessed with internet filters like cleanbrowsing. And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future in prayer for your husband”. Anne: Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past. Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. Pressure To Move On IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others. So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation. And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless. Victim Blaming & Self-Blame Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries. And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change my husband or change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again. And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again. Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again. Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t. Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, I have no control whether or not I am over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? Tracy: It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time. Perception Vs. Reality Anne: Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person. Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse? Tracy: Yes, exactly. Positive Thinking As A Form Of Spiritual Bypass Tracy: More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations. I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this. That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization Anne: Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce. You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this. Tracy: Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is. Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass Tracy: For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it. Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others. I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life. Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible Tracy: Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away. Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal when using prayer for my husband as spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Trigger Warning: Positive Post Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured. For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing. Growth From Betrayal Trauma Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us. Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma. I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad. I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure. Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second. The Good & Bad Of Betrayal Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing. None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey? I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow. Choosing safety And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe. First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say. Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth. Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world. No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide. The Radical Notion Of Equality Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too. Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously. When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way. Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical. Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough. Tracy: I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me” Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma. And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes. And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass. Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy. Patriarchy & prayer for my husband Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy? Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that in prayer for my husband? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact. Men are legally in charge, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way. You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it. HOW RIGID “Gender Roles” KEEP WOMEN STUCK Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work. Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. Sometimes it sounds spiritual…like telling women the answer to their marriage issues is simply prayer for your husband. It still removes shared responsibility. Protecting Women’s Choices For Their Lives Anne: We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. That includes freedom from the idea that prayer for your husband is her primary job. Many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating. So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous. But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do. Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either. Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook. Working Out Marital Tasks Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor and prayer for your husband. Sorry, it’s your only option. Tracy: Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that? Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now. She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass. the Role “Biblical” Womanhood in prayer for my husband Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy. Tracy: It is. Anne: It can be anyone’s job. Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care. It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it? If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this. Jesus Defends Women’s Choices Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple. He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.” And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass. Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, I should bypass painful things and remain in prayer for my husband. Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayer for your husband would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism. Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It says, “we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.” “They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.” Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak in prayer for my husband. But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass. Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe. Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote. Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along. And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem. Women In The Workforce Anne: On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something. Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or wha tever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges. I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass Tracy: As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer. But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that… Anne: …so that you can fill the measure of your creation. Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that. because i was focused on prayer for my husband. Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young and focus on prayer for my husband. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience. I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations. Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible. It’s Never Too Late Anne: Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late. Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you. Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children. HONORING CHOICES IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well. I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me. I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do. Supporting Women’s Choices Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose. We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is. Tracy: Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism. You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word. Women Deserve Peace & Safety Anne: It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass. This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety. That is what women deserve.

Have you ever felt like your marriage keeps cycling between calm and tension? You’re not alone. Many women spend years searching for answers, while being told to communicate better, manage stress, or meet their husband’s needs. But those explanations don’t solve the issue, because this isn’t random conflict, it’s a repeating emotional cycle of abuse. This cycle follows a familiar rhythm. Tension builds, an incident erupts, then comes remorse or brief kindness.The “honeymoon” leads to calm, and the pattern resets, leaving you doubting yourself instead of seeing the manipulation. In this episode of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, we show what the emotional cycle of abuse looks like in real life.You’ll hear a woman’s story who once believed more patience and prayer could fix her marriage, but it never did. This conversation exposes the emotional cycle of abuse and helps women find a path to emotional safety. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What is the Emotional Cycle of Abuse? Anne: If you’ve ever wondered why your marriage feels like a constant loop, moments of peace, followed by tension, followed by something that breaks you. You’re not imagining it. You’ve probably searched for answers. You’ve likely been told it’s a communication issue or somebody has unmet needs, or that you just need to try harder, be calmer, or maybe even pray more. But none of that explains why it always circles back to pain and unresolved issues. What you’re living through isn’t chaos. It’s a pattern, a deliberate repeating cycle, And when you finally see that pattern for what it is, an emotional cycle of abuse, that’s what today’s episode is about. Today I have a member of our community. We’re gonna call her Jamie. Here’s a part of her interview. Jamie: I just knew I can’t do this. There’s a concept called Pain for Love, it was the first time I heard anything that sounded close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, then they would act out. And then you start getting angry and explode, and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down. Anne: So the therapist called this Pain for Love, but didn’t explain it as a cycle of emotional abuse. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Welcome, Jamie. Jamie: Hi, thank you, Anne. It’s so nice to be here. Thank you. Understanding The Early Signs of An Emotional Cycle of Abuse Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Jamie: At the beginning of my relationship, it was amazing. I met my husband through a mutual friend from high school. In phone conversations with her over a couple of years. I knew about him. He knew about me. So when we met in person, it was so much fun. I felt so good. He seemed to have a lot of energy, I kid you not. Two weeks after we met, he took me with a big friend group to Cancun. And he would buy me things. He seemed interested in the same things. We went to a lot of Christian concerts, and he tagged along with us. It was so much fun, and we enjoyed it. I can say that when we got married, the light switch just flipped and a lot of that stuff stopped. But looking back now. I can see red flags, that I didn’t know or understand. Anne: When we’re in it, it’s not a red flag. It’s more of a hiccup. It’s not like someone’s screaming, and yelling is not bad. No, it’s not bad. And there’s nothing that we did or didn’t do back then, because even with a good person, like a genuinely good person, you might have a hiccup. They might be some kind of fluke thing that happens. You can’t tell if it’s a fluke or not until you’ve known him for a couple of years. Jamie: That’s right. It’s a pattern of behavior, and the pattern of behavior only comes with time. For me, we were young, so I expected natural time and maturity to happen, and that those little hiccups wouldn’t be what they turned out to be. When Affection Turns Into A Control Tactic Anne: Right, growing together. Jamie: Yeah. And that never happened at all. Anne: You’re processing it the best way possible. So, let’s talk about things that you noticed, but maybe didn’t process as red flags. Did you ever notice something was off? Talk about how you defined it at that time, not knowing that you were dealing with the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: One of the incidents that happened, not someone I was in a relationship with, but just dating to go out and date. He ended up holding me against my will for three days. Anne: Oh, yikes. Jamie: That was a year and a half before. I had been in therapy. I was in a good place when I met my husband. So three months into dating my husband, we decided to exclusively date. The only thing I noticed was the F-bomb. And my husband used that in conversational speak. I don’t and never have, but he was, and I was like, okay, I don’t want him to think this is him because I’m having a reaction to that. So I actually shared with him what had happened to me. I was vulnerable and shared this traumatic event with him. And I said, “Hey, when you’re using that, I’m having a reaction. I feel it. It’s probably the last little bit that I’ve got to work through.” And then he turned around and used the F-bomb over and over. He weaponized it, then told me, “Well, you are the one who has the issue with that. I’m not changing the way I use anything. You are the one who has the problem with that. So that’s your problem to work through, not mine.” He weaponized my vulnerability Jamie: And at the time I was like, oh, I guess he’s not wrong. At the time, I didn’t think it was that big of a deal because I was like, maybe he’s not using it more. Maybe I’m just more perceptive of it, you know? But no, he absolutely weaponized it and did it over and over and over. At the same time, I would say to him like, these are actual examples. “I really love it when you open the door for me. That makes me feel good and special. Thank you for doing that.” And he quit. He withheld it. That one he never really had a reason for or excuse other than, well, I’m just not that type of guy to do that. Anne: So, this was after you thanked him, so he opened the door for you. Then after you thanked him, he was like, because she appreciates this and it means something to her, I’m for sure not gonna do it. Jamie: I rationalized that away as, I guess that’s not that big of a deal if he doesn’t open the door. It’s kind of weird that I told him that I liked it. Now he is not doing it. But of course at the time I just, okay, no big deal. And didn’t think that type of behavior would continue, but it did. In little ways and in big ways, and still to this day, it is that way. So he withholds anything that I tell him is good. He continues repeatedly to do something that I tell him is bad, and then blames me for the reaction of pain, hurt, and anger. After that for a really long time. How an Emotional Cycle of Abuse Keeps Women Off Balance Jamie: He’s so good at making me believe that. I did believe it was my fault a long time. I thought I was in a good place, but maybe I’m not. And he is a healthcare professional, so I trusted him. He’s gotta know what he is talking about in some things. I didn’t see it as manipulation at the time. Anne: Each thing that would happen felt isolated. That why betrayal trauma in marriage is so difficult. The F word thing, that’s just about the F word, the door thing. It’s just about doors. Jamie: That’s exactly right. And still to this day, that’s exactly how he wants to categorize it. We have three kids together. A boy, girl, boy, ages 20, 18, and 15, and the 20-year-old was a baby and in a stroller. I knew something is wrong and I couldn’t put my finger on it, so I found a counselor. I remember going into his office and he was like, okay, y’all hug each other. Anne: Wondering will couples counseling work? So this was couple counseling. Jamie: This couples counseling. And so I gave him a hug and he is like, well, I usually see the problem if there’s a problem giving a hug, but y’all don’t seem to have a problem giving a hug. I’m not sure what’s going on here. And then he would give us like little homework assignments. And I would have this hope that maybe if he does the homework assignment and I do my homework assignment, that we would come back and things would get better. The Role of Counseling and Church Advice in Continuing the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: That was a waste of time and money. It ended up hurting me. Because I had expectations that maybe this could help us, and I’m like, what is going on? He told me he doesn’t wanna have sex with me, and it was my fault. I felt, if I left it up to him, we would have sex a handful of times a year, birthdays and Mother’s Day. All three of our kids were conceived on my birthday or his birthday. I had been trying to engage with him, and I would get nothing from him, blank stare acting, dismissive, silence. He’s pursed his lips so much now over these years that he has wrinkled mad and angry pursed lips, and just sitting there sulking in silence. And then I discovered some pornography, and I was devastated and in a really bad, bad place. So I reached out to the pastor and I’m like, we need help. And the pastor ends up telling me that I am not letting him lead. I’m like, “I am letting him lead.” And he goes, “You just don’t like where he’s leading.” And he ends up telling me that I am not an obedient wife, that I need to forgive, love, and serve, and that I’m not being obedient. Anne: Obedient my eye. You were totally loving and serving this man. Jamie: Yes, in every way possible. And then of course, this whole time he’s so good at spinning it to make it feel like my fault. At those times, I believed it. And like, okay, we need help, and you need to be more obedient. I left completely devastated and had to leave the church. Because I could not return to that pastor until he left. Emboldened Husband lashes out, calling me a liar Jamie: I was so brokenhearted and devastated, and my husband was like, “See, I told you you’re the problem. It’s not me.” And things went downhill from there. Anne: When they are enabled, they go downhill pretty quickly, ’cause they’re given permission to be worse. I wanna point out the stonewalling was a lie. The blaming you was a lie. Even when he goes into the pastor and says that stuff about you, that’s a lie. So it’s lie after lie after lie, but you don’t know that it’s a lie. Jamie: Most of the time his lying was under the radar, but there were times where I picked up on it. There were times where I’m like, oh, I just caught him and a lie. That’s when he would lash out at me and say, “You are calling me a liar. I don’t know why you’re with me.” Anne: I’m smiling a little bit. ‘Cause in the Living Free Workshop, that’s one of the strategies I teach. If they try to manipulate you through saying something like, “You just think I’m a liar.” Say, “Oh, I never thought about that.” ‘Cause the reason they do that to us is a manipulation tactic. So we’re like, “No, I don’t think you’re a liar.” So that we’ll back down. And sometimes they’re saying the exact thing that if we just agreed as a Christian, that “agree with thine adversary quickly.” I’ve found that a simple, “Hmm, maybe I do think you’re a liar. I need to think about that more.” Strategy removes you from manipulation. Emotional abuse is mentioned in addiction models Jamie: You’re right, exactly right. And I felt like, I didn’t say that, you said that, but I am pointing out to you right here that you lied. That definitely is a tactic that worked a lot on me for a while. Anne: It works on all of us. Jamie: I finally Googled emotional abuse. And the first things that came up were the addiction models. And I’m like, oh yeah, emotional abuse and the addiction model, like pornography addiction, sex addiction. Anne: Sorry. I’m actually shocked that they talk about the emotional cycle of abuse, because they usually avoid saying it’s abuse. Jamie: I absorbed that like a sponge. I ordered him the book and the workbook, and I did a phone group, and many videos about pornography addiction. I did find a counselor through that women’s group online, and we started doing counseling with him. He never mentioned anything of it being abuse, ever. Anne: This is still couple therapy. Jamie: It was supposed to be, because we were going along the lines of that workbook, following those guidelines where you do dailies with your spouse, and after two times I’m like, I can’t do this. I didn’t know I was seeking safety for myself. I just knew I can’t do this. We shared a lot of the material we were learning. The “Pain for love” pattern Jamie: And there’s a concept called Pain for Love. And I just went, oh my goodness, Pain for Love. And the concept there I attached to, because it was the first time I heard or read anything that sounded anything close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, so you’re fine. But then they would act out, act out, act out, and then you start getting angrier. And then kind of explode and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down and I’ve got to bring you back down. So he would show up to love me and bring me down, and then return to being his normal self. Anne: Wait, wait, hold on a minute. This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept before, but you’re essentially describing domestic abuse where he grooms, deescalates the victim so he can maintain control, coercive control. Jamie: Yes. Anne: Then as soon as he feels like he can relax because you’re under his control, then you can just go back to being miserable. Jamie: Yes, when I heard Pain for Love, I felt like you have to get to this big level of pain before they’ll show up and love you, and they’ll love you for a little bit, and then leave and go back to causing pain. Anne: I’m so shocked that someone would say this to a woman and not realize how she’s gonna interpret it. I don’t know how he intended it, but the way we interpret it is, this is how I get love. Is that how you were interpreting it? Jamie: Yes Finding Clarity After Naming the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: The concept is that I would have to get in so much pain, and then he would realize, I need to love my wife for a couple of days. Then rinse and repeat. Yeah, I believed until one of the ladies from my group suggested you and your podcast. I had the podcast on my phone, and then one day I’m like, I’m gonna listen to all this. And my mind was blown. Now, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. It was eye-opening. No one had ever told me to seek safety for myself before. Everybody puts the emphasis on him. We gotta help him, love him, encourage him, and we’ve gotta give him the space to do what he needs to do all while hurting me, and nobody ever addressed that, ever. And then I started my Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions. I’ve been in now for about 16 months. Only through what I’ve learned through BTR do I know that I’ve been doing a lot of safety seeking behaviors and that it was the best way to get yourself back after emotional abuse. Anne: Yeah, the whole time you are doing the right thing. You are going for help, but it’s insane how no one we ask for help, except for BTR, knows it’s abuse or defines it that way. You found that emotional abuse article that led you to sex addiction therapy, but then they didn’t continue to talk about that. They didn’t say, oh, you found us through emotional abuse, because this is the emotional cycle of abuse. And if you’re emotionally abused, we need to make sure that you’re safe. That that doesn’t even enter the conversation is so crazy to me. Jamie: Yeah, me too. Finding out about an affair Jamie: I came across you, and my life is now completely changing in the direction it needs to change. But only because of what I’ve learned here. I have started seeking safety for myself, and it’s changed everything. And seeking safety. I now feel more confident. When we were dating, he mirrored me and love bombed me. He wasn’t being his genuine, authentic self. He was doing whatever he needed to do to convince me he was the guy for me. Now I look back and I can see there was a lot of abuse and betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: It’s been a lie, just an emotional cycle of abuse. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Jamie: Yes, I wish I’d known this a long time ago, but I know it now. My youngest son wanted to go shopping. My husband had told me he was going to go into the business earlier that morning. We own our own healthcare business together. My son says, Hey, I forgot something in dad’s car. Can we go get it? We stopped by, he had locked the doors and taken my key off my key chain. My son called him, he answered the phone, but then put us on mute for like two minutes, and then two minutes later he’s like, hello, hello, can you hear me? So he comes and opens the door, and we went in. We heard the back door open. My son headed back there, and I immediately knew then that my husband was having an affair. My first thought was to protect my son, so I just said, Hey, let’s go. We are leaving. We get in the car and my son says, “Mom, aren’t you gonna confront Dad?” Seeking safety for myself Jamie: No, this is not for you to be a witness of, and I care about you and we’re gonna go. And he just didn’t understand why I didn’t wanna confront Dad. About a month later, he walks into my room and says, “We need to talk about divorce.” About a month after that, he hands me a handwritten piece of paper with a settlement offer. The bare, bare minimum and wants to walk away with our business free and clear without giving me a dime. He thinks that’s fair. He was like, I think this is fair. If I didn’t think it was fair, I wouldn’t have written it and handed it to you. So during this time, I’m still in groups. I’m still getting support. And there’s financial abuse in the divorce process. I had an appointment with an attorney, and the attorney tells me, “Oh, he filed.” Which I didn’t think he would do, but makes sense if he’s trying to start a new life with his affair partner. He’s still in the house, but in the next day or two, we’ll have a temporary hearing for him to move out. I put boundaries into place that I’ve learned from the coaches at BTR from your podcast. From the Living Free Workshop, I’ve learned so much, and it has totally changed my life. And although I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, because this is so hard. I’m grateful and thankful that I have the tools I need to move on and get safe for my kids. I feel like since I’ve learned everything through BTR, I’ve been on a fast track to healing. I haven’t had that. BTR has been a godsend to me to escape the emotional cycle of abuse. Feeling thankful for a changed life Jamie: He isolated me 22 years ago in the middle of the country, and BTR has reached me and changed my life and my kids’ lives. I’m so thankful, I’m thankful for the coaches. I’m thankful you have the courage to turn this around and be a light for other women. I want all of them to know, like you say in the podcast, you didn’t want another woman on earth to go through this. And I don’t either. I know that I have to walk through some pretty big storms and fire before I’m on the other side, but I’m here and it’s what I’ve been waiting for. I’ve learned how to handle those trauma responses better that I was trying to do with the other therapist, and it never worked ’cause it wasn’t addressing the real issue. It’s changed my life. Anne: I’m so grateful to hear that. ’cause I have, of course, my bad days. It’s really hard to do this work, as you can imagine. I’m so sorry about what you’re going through. And then also so grateful that what we’re doing is making a difference. It’s drastically different than anything you’ll get from a therapist or a couple therapists or a sex addiction therapist, because we can see what’s really happening. And it’s crazy to me that like no matter how hard a woman tries. No matter how smart she is, and no matter how resourced she is, if she can’t see what is really happening, no one else will help her. It’s so heartbreaking to me. Jamie: Right. For so many years, I was trying to tell my truth. I said it, and nobody got it. And then I come to BTR and this is the truth. On the fast track to healing Jamie: This is what’s going on, and it’s changed my life and my family. I say I’ve been with the group for 16 months and listening to the podcast for almost two years. That two years compared to 25, that feels like fast track. I think I got the tools I needed to handle what was coming, because I have always said, God knows what we need well before we know we need it. And I think he put this into place to help me, ’cause I feel like I’m not alone. There are so many other women going through this, I’ve have been through it. I’ve listened to their stories, virtually held their hand and given them hugs. The coaching has been amazing, and it has changed my life. I couldn’t be more thankful. I know that’s a God thing. Anne: I think so too. I feel like every day we hear about miracles of someone who says a prayer or something and finds us randomly somehow. It’s not that we’re not here, it’s not that we don’t have the tools to help women, it’s that there are so many other options for therapists or influencers or whoever else, and so finding the right information is so difficult to find a way out of the emotional cycle of abuse. I’m grateful to all the listeners who helped. Other women find out about it. I’m trying to get Living Free into every woman’s hands. ’cause at least for me, if I had it at the beginning or if you would’ve had it 25 years ago, can you imagine the difference that would’ve made? Jamie: Oh yes, very helpful. Always everything is geared towards it’s a we problem. Or he has this problem that we have to help him through. Getting over the shock of a calculating husband Jamie: Never addressing my pain, ever. And now, like you said, I can’t unsee it. Anne: It’s just so calculated. It’s actually really shocking if you’re listening right now and you’re like, is my husband like that? Is this an emotional cycle of abuse? Living Free will help you see what he’s like, and then you can make the decisions based on that. Jamie: Absolutely, that’s exactly what happened with me too. That helped me see exactly. And it helps me process moving forward, and especially the whirlwind I’m going through right now. What to expect, because I now can see him for what he is. And my husband is also one of those who wants to place intent over impact. Anne: It was their intent to do whatever they wanted without worrying about the consequences. Jamie: That’s right. Anne: I actually think intent matters more, and this is the reason. Someone who really genuinely cares about you, who doesn’t wanna hurt you, they’re thinking about you. And maybe they get a gift, and it’s a little offensive, and they’re like, I’m so sorry. I was trying so hard. And I missed the boat. But their intent was good. With these guys, they’re like, well, I bought you a present, didn’t I? Like, why am I not getting points? They don’t actually care about us. Jamie: That’s exactly right. There is no thought of me. Finding a safe place Anne: It’s like my sweet 12-year-old, I love him, and he is gigantic. His arms and legs are so big. If he thinks about where he’s going, he’s not gonna hurt anybody, because he’ll be aware of where his arm is, and it’s not gonna whack someone accidentally. But if he’s just clumping through the house, not thinking about anybody, someone will get hurt. So if you are not aware of the people around you and what you’re doing, you’re going to hurt people and. If you don’t think about other people at all, that is intent. And it is the basis of the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: I agree. Anne: Thank you so much, and thank you for your support. It’s because of clients like you and other women who listen to the podcast that we can continue to do this work. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jamie: Thank you. The work you’ve done and are doing is a godsend. BTR is a safe place, and they’ll take you where you are, how you are. At the moment, they’ll give you tools, you can use them, and be safe. Just having a safe place is priceless. It is so worth it.

If your husband lies about small things, here’s why it’s not a small problem. Many women in our community describe the same beginning: they start noticing little lies, inconsistencies, or half-truths, but they dismiss them because, overall, he seems like a good guy. He’s involved. He apologizes. He’s trying. So the lies get minimized, explained away, or pushed aside. One of the hardest parts of living with deception is that clarity doesn’t usually arrive with a big confession or undeniable proof. It comes in fragments, small moments that are easy to dismiss, especially when your goal is to hold your family together. When a husband lies about small things, it often points to something much bigger, but that pattern can be hard to see while you’re still inside it. In this episode, Anne shares the French Fry Analogy to explain why lying, gaslighting, and blame-shifting about “small things” can be a major red flag. Before reading on, here’s something many women don’t realize: lying can be an emotional abuse tactic. That truth explains why so many thoughtful, capable women stay confused for so long—not because they’re in denial, but because it’s nearly impossible to see clearly when you’re living in a pattern that alternates between hurtful behavior and reassuring gestures, between small lies and moments that seem like progress. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’ve been calling her Jenna to protect her identity. You’ll hear in this interview that Jenna didn’t come to clarity because her marriage suddenly got worse. She found clarity when she finally had language for the patterns and she could see how the small lies really revealed something much bigger. So let’s get into it. Welcome, Jenna Jenna: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Jenna and I have been interacting on social media for a long time. On social media, we take the concepts I teach here on the podcast and make visual representations of these concepts, usually through infographics. But every once in a while, I do a video. One of the infographics I posted was an epiphany for Jenna. It helped her see that her husband had been lying about small things, which distracted her from realizing he was also lying about big things. Speaking of social media, on Facebook. I’m also on Instagram @btr.org__, TikTok @btr.org, and if you search btr.org on YouTube, you’ll find me there. If you want to comment anonymously on any particular episode, let’s say this one, go to our website, btr.org and in the search bar put in the title of the episode. So for this one, it would be, my husband lies about small things. This episode will come up. You can see the transcription and scroll down to the bottom. And comment anonymously about what you think. I always love your comments. And I interact with women on the website all the time. I also interact with women on social media. My Marriage Was Not Healthy Anne: So you’re following me on social media, we’re interacting online and then you see this infographic. What happened next? Jenna: It resonated instantly with me. I thought we had hard times, but things are still getting better. I thought we were on that upward trajectory. But when I saw it on Instagram. It just suddenly clicked for me. It has two different graphs. One says, “What I thought my marriage was” and it shows a graph that goes up and down, but it has a trajectory that’s going up. Then, it says, “healthy, hard, healthy, hard.” Anne: Yeah, it’s kind of like a stock market graph. It’s going up in general and healthy is when it goes up and hard is when it dips down. And when it goes back up, it goes even higher. Jenna: It captures the experience I had exactly. Then, underneath what I thought my marriage was, it says what it really was. Instead of the healthy and hard healthy and hard points, it’s actually grooming and abuse, grooming and abuse. The grooming just gets more extreme, and the abuse stays the same. So it’s not that the marriage is improving. It’s that the grooming is just improving, and abuse is still there. Anne: The abuse is actually probably getting worse, but you can’t go lower in a graph. So I created this infographic because that was my experience. RECOGNIZING EMOTIONAL ABUSE PATTERNS WHEN MY HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: I thought as we did addiction recovery, and we went to all these therapists, and we did 12 step for wives of addicts…. all the stuff that we would take a step forward and then two steps back. Because the addiction recovery industrial complex told me “He’s going to have relapses” and “progress, not perfection.” I thought, “Oh, we are improving over time, but of course, it’s not just going to be a perfectly straight line to success. We’re going to have ups and downs along the way.” But when I finally took a step back and realized it was abuse, and that my husband lies about small things as part of that pattern, I saw that we weren’t actually moving forward at all. I was just going around in circles. What I thought were setbacks were really just more lies, more grooming, and more emotional abuse. Let’s talk about the factors that would lead a woman to think that these are the regular ups and downs of either marriage in general, or the ups and downs of being in a relationship with a man addicted to exploitative material or maybe has a mental health issue. Jenna: I think the actions he did were positive. He was going to church. And he participated in an addiction recovery group. He did all the things that you would think of when you think of improving. Even times when he would apologize. Or times when he would not gaslight me. I thought that was positive and thought maybe that was improvement. Anne: Congratulations, you didn’t lie. I’m so proud of you! My Husband Was Lying & I Was Sticking It Out Jenna: Seriously, it would be like, oh wow, he took money out of my wallet. And didn’t think I saw, but he didn’t try to convince me that he didn’t do that. As long as you’re going to a group, to therapy, to church, there’s this idea that just doing those things equals I’m a good person. Anne: I think there’s also the societal idea that everything is fixable. As long as you’re willing to work on it and go to therapy. Of course, there’s going to be a solution. Many people go straight to whether their abusive husband needs therapy or an addiction recovery program. Rather than thinking, “Whoa, we need to get you emotionally and psychologically safe.” Why Does My Husband Lie? I was talking to my uncle the other day about my ex, telling him some details. And he was shocked. And then at five o’clock in the morning, the next day he emailed me and said, “Anne, your ex needs a treatment program.” I just laughed, I was like, “That’s what I thought. And so that’s why I got him into a treatment program.” Because he’s abusive and he lies, treatment didn’t help him. And no one told me it was abuse, which is why I’m doing this podcast. Jenna: Yeah. I think there’s an idea that marriage is hard. No one’s perfect. As long as he’s working on it by going to a treatment center or going to therapy or whatever he may be doing. As long as he’s doing those things, you just have to stick it out. Those kinds of ideas, at least, were in my mind, and made it difficult for me to even consider the option that maybe not all marriages are this hard. Maybe not all marriages are abusive. I think that’s one idea that kept me stuck. I Learn His Lies, Gaslighting & Manipulation Are Abuse Anne: Even if you know it’s abuse, then you’re like, “Wow, it’s abuse? Okay, we need to get him into therapy because he’s abusive because he has childhood trauma or he feels shame.” I don’t think they realize that’s not why he’s abusive, number one, and therapy will not help. Most therapists think, “Oh, I can help.” They don’t realize they’re going to get manipulated and gaslit themselves. I don’t know if it’s an ego thing, but therapists don’t tend to realize they are unable to help abusers. Because the prevailing opinion of everyone is that therapy will solve this, I work so hard to educate all women about this. So I hope the infographics help. I took many of them, and I put them in the back of Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is my picture book for adults. And it’s also available on Amazon. It’s a picture book. So it’s also this visual representation of what it’s like to be emotionally and psychologically abused and coerced, and not realize what’s happening because of his lies. Teaching these concepts in a way that women can actually apply is my top priority. And social media is so important, because I can post those visual representations there. As you’ve been interacting with me on social media, what’s your take on why these are so helpful for victims? I Seek & Find The Truth Jenna For me, learning the term betrayal trauma was incredibly validating and empowering. It gave me language for what I was experiencing—especially in moments when my husband lies about small things and I couldn’t explain why it affected me so deeply.The infographics do something similar. They capture my experience in a way I sometimes can’t put into words. They give me a simple, visual way to understand what I’m feeling and to share that understanding with others. It’s therapeutic, clear, and approachable—and the fact that they’re visually engaging makes them even easier to take in. Anne: Yeah, having it be cute doesn’t hurt. So the process is like, I have an idea in my head, I podcast about it. Then I draw like a pathetic stick figure. And then my amazing friend, who’s an illustrator and graphic designer, brings these to life. She’s incredible. And then she and I go back and forth through so many different iterations to make sure the concept is clear, And then I always revisit them. Maybe six months, or a year or two years later, I look at it again and I’m like, “Oh we need to alter this a little bit.” I’m always getting feedback on them and making updates. So when you say an infographic I created that I posted, it helped you realize your husband’s lies about the small things. Indicated a much bigger thing, that warms my heart. Infographics Helped Me See Reality Jenna: It was so easy for me to overlook the experiences I’ve gone through that were emotionally abusive, and think, he doesn’t punch me. He doesn’t hurt me physically, but emotional abuse affects your body and spirit immensely. It’s not that bad. But when I see it in the infographic, it’s so obvious. It’s apparent what I am experiencing is emotional abuse. It’s damaging, and I’m being sucked into this abuse cycle of grooming and devaluing. It just makes it so clear for me and helps me navigate my next steps to safety. I took the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. The workbook that comes with the workshop had so many visuals and beautiful artwork. It captures the reality of my situation. It’s simple and easy to understand, and helps me digest my own experience. I appreciated that. Anne: I’m so glad to hear that. That’s awesome. I’ve taken so many trainings or workshops. And I was so confused most of the time. I always felt like, Am I doing it wrong? Is it me? And then I realized, no, it’s just not detailed. It’s unclear. It doesn’t give me a way to process it. It doesn’t give me a way to interact with it. And so just like everything else at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I test everything for years, years, and years. With the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I first used the strategies myself to deliver my kids and myself from abuse. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. So I duplicated that success. With other victims, we created a workshop out of it. We ran that workshop live for a few years to get feedback, to know where were victims getting stuck? What parts weren’t clear? The Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is Invaluable Anne: Then we created all the videos for the format. It’s now online, and those videos are incredible because it has visual representations for all these concepts to help women get it. And then I continue to tweak it, tweak it, and tweak it. I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. So I’m obsessed with making sure the content we produce is clear and helpful. And that the services we provide are exactly what women need. Jenna: Yeah, the workshop for me was invaluable. I felt like I learned so much about specific actions I could take and specific situations. It was super helpful. Anne: I am so glad to hear that. I hear that every day from women, how much it helped them. If you’re listening and interested, you can learn more about workshop for betrayal trauma. The French Fry Analogy Anne: As Jenna and I were interacting on social media, she shared something that made me realize the French fry analogy would really help her name what was happening in her marriage. This analogy illustrates why, when a husband lies about small things, it’s often evidence that something much bigger is going on. He comes up to you and says, “You know what? I have been eating at McDonald’s too much, and it’s not healthy for me. It’s bothering me. I don’t like it, so I’m just letting you know that I’m not going to ever eat at McDonald’s again, ever. You, as the supportive wife, would be like, sounds great, honey. This is not that important. You’re like, okay, you do you. Good for you. He doesn’t say anything else about it. Three weeks later, you have to use his car for something. You get in his car, you’re fumbling around with a quarter, and it falls down in a crack. And as you’re trying to get the quarter, you find a French fry. That French fry is unmistakable. It is a McDonald’s French fry. You get your quarter out, you get the French fry out, and you go to your husband and you say, “Hey honey, I lost this quarter and when I found it, I also found this French fry.” Now if he’s a super healthy person, he might say, “I know I told you I want to stop eating at McDonald’s, but I went to McDonald’s three days ago when I had that long drive. And yeah, one of them fell down in the crack. And as far as me falling off the wagon, I feel really stupid about it. AN ANALOGY FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: This is not an abuse episode. The situation where he wanted to stop eating McDonald’s and then he fell off the wagon is not that big of a deal. He wasn’t trying to deceive you. He wasn’t trying to hide it from you on purpose. When you asked him about the French fry, he readily admitted he fell off the wagon and went to McDonald’s. Now let’s pretend the whole scenario is the same, but instead, when you find the French fry. And you take it to him and say, I found this French fry. He says. “I don’t know what you’re talking about, I don’t see a French fry.” And then you’re like, “This French fry, this one right here. I found this in the car.” And he’s like, “Well, one of the kids must’ve got in my car and dropped it in there.” With that same scenario, if he starts to gaslight he lies, he’s not a healthy person. Even if this is just about a French fry. Deceit, gaslighting, and turning the tables would be psychological and emotional abuse. And to take it even further, if he said, “Why are you going through my car? Why are you trying to check up on me?” Maybe even, “I never told you I wasn’t going to eat at McDonald’s. Of course, I’m going to eat at McDonald’s. Why would you even think I wouldn’t eat at McDonald’s?” So there’s the French fry analogy. How has this analogy helped you? Experiencing Your Husband’s Lies Jenna: I think it captured what was happening for me. Like you said, they were small, or they felt small at the time. When my husband lies about small things, it didn’t immediately register as something serious. Back then, I didn’t even know he was using exploitative material. He would make up stories about hobbies or abilities he actually did not have. Then, to me, he would deny he had made up those stories. So I would just let his lies go. Now I realize how big they were. But I can look back and see the pattern of different French fries I found. Anne’s EXAMPLE: WHEN A Husband Lies ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: My ex did that too. There was this period where we were at dinner parties or social events. I would look out of the corner of my eye. And he was like doing these Tai Chi moves. And he would talk to people about how much he loved Tai Chi. Like he was some kind of Tai Chi master. So after a while, I was very curious. So I said, “How do you know so much about Tai Chi?” And he kind of avoided answering me. And so I got real specific and I said, “Did you take Tai-Chi in college?” “No.” “Did you take it in high school?” “No.” “Did you take it at a gym?” “No.” “Have you read a book about Tai Chi?” “No.” “Have you ever taken a Tai-Chi class anywhere in any way, shape or form?” “No.” “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” You know how there’s like those old people in a park? “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” “No.” “Maybe on vacation?” “No.” Ah, I was dumbfounded. He lies, so I don’t know why he didn’t just lie, but in this moment, for some reason, he wanted me to know. I still don’t know why he wanted me to know, because he had no problem with lies when he wanted to. And finally, and maybe this was a lie too. He said, “I read an article about at once.” Like one article is what he said. And he lies about that? Maybe he never even read one article about it. It was crazy. So, instead of just saying, I read an article about Tai Chi and I’m interested in maybe taking a class sometime. No, one article apparently made him an expert in Tai Chi. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, IT’S NOT HARMLESS Anne: So if he lies about traveling to London or Tai Chi or French fries, it indicates something serious is happening, but it’s so hard for us to recognize that. Jenna: For me, I feel like I didn’t have proof. Everything inside me said something here is wrong. It is not normal that my husband lies about small things, like going on a trip to London. My brain would say he’s not using exploitative material, because he’d said he wasn’t using it. I can think of way worse things he could be doing. Maybe this isn’t that big of a deal. I think it was easy to rationalize it, to say, this isn’t necessarily a good thing, but because he’s told me he loved me, it’s still progress. Back to that upward trajectory graph in the infographic. Anne: Yeah, totally. After I was separated, I was talking to my dentist. And I said, “I didn’t realize it was abuse. I mean, he had stopped screaming and yelling in my face. And I saw that as progress.” And my dentist was like, “What? What are you talking about?” I know my dentist well. I went to high school with him. He just looked at me and he was like, “A good person would never do that”. Like ever. My dentist couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that victims are manipulated to think he lies about this one thing. He realized he couldn’t scream and yell in your face. So then he lies to you. That’s not progress. But now taking a step back, it’s a gut punch to realize that he wasn’t changing and things weren’t improving. That upward trajectory wasn’t happening. He was just changing up his abuse tactics. I Struggle To Create Safety Jenna: When I look back on my experience, I thought these little breadcrumbs were big improvements. The little things he would do I would see as progress. I imagined myself standing outside my house in a hurricane, like lightning, rain and crazy wind. My hair is flying everywhere and debris flying all around me. I imagine the storm around me being the abuse I experienced. Then I imagine putting my hands over my head, just a little bit as progress. That’s a small improvement from not having any protection, but it’s something. The only thing that created safety for me was walking to my house, stepping inside, and closing the door. I could look out the window and see the crazy storm that was going on outside, but it wasn’t hurting me anymore. I think that’s the only time I could see the abuse for what it was. Because in the moment, I felt that at least my hands are over my head, I’ve got a little protection. I didn’t understand how much danger I was in until I was safe. And I could look back and see how dangerous it actually was. Anne: Oh, I like that analogy. I wonder if part of it is the adrenaline of the chaos. Like you might not realize how cold you are until you get inside. And then you’re like, “Oh, I was really cold and miserable.” But in the moment, you’re just trying to make it down the mountain or survive. One Day At A Time Survival Mode Anne: Which is why people call abuse victims survivors. Because every day they’re surviving in this mental, emotional, and psychological life and death situation. Even if they’re still in the abuse, because they’re surviving one day at a time. We need to ask ourselves. “Wait a minute, do I just want to be in survival mode every day? Do I want to be in that type of chaos all the time? Or do I want to actually be safe and rest in my warm house with a cup of hot chocolate?” And so to help us make our way to safety, that French fry analogy comes in handy especially when a husband lies about small things. Because if something happens, we can think to ourselves, “Okay, if this were just about a French fry, would it still be severe and intense, emotional and psychological abuse?” If someone is willing to completely deny, he lies, gaslights, and blame shifts about a french fry, which is not that big of a deal. That’s a big warning sign that they are emotionally and psychologically dangerous. I want all the listeners to consider things that you may have thought, that’s not that big of a deal. When he lies and denies you had a conversation about changing the oil or picking up milk from the store. Not only is lying emotional abuse in and of itself, it’s only the part of the iceberg you can see, and there is a way, way more beneath the surface that you can’t see. Social Media’s Role In Figuring Out EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: Why has following Betrayal Trauma Recovery on social media, interacting with me and engaging with other women, been useful to you? Jenna: I love listening to the podcast, and getting bite-sized pieces of information. I can get on, take in one small topic, a quote, or a thought, and sit with it. It gives me something to think about and helps me understand emotional abuse in a way I can actually process, especially when my husband lies about small things. Anne: That reminds me of one of my good friends in real life. We were friends long before I started podcasting. She’d been in several abusive relationships, but for me, talking to her was always awkward. Because for her, it felt safer to pull away from the pain and not consider it could be emotional abuse. So as we would talk, I would think, “I have the perfect podcast about this. I should tell her about it.” But I would hold back as much as possible. Our sons were on the same baseball team. So we’d sit together every week and chat while our sons played baseball. And at one game, she told me about her ex, and I was thinking, “Oh, this is abuse. How can I help her understand, since she’s not interested in listening to the podcast?” She loves Instagram. So I said, “Hey, I’m on Instagram. Let’s follow each other.” And the next week at the baseball game, she was like, “Oh, I’ve been learning all this stuff. I realized my ex is abusive.” And in my head I’m thinking, I know. I’ve been trying to tell you that. I was actually a little frustrated and confused, apparently she wasn’t interested in listening to me to educate her about abuse in person. I Start Healing With Daily Instagrams & The BTR Workshop Anne: When it came down to it, the only thing that mattered to me was that she started opening up to the idea that these men she had been dating were abusive. Then I saw the beauty of it. Because she’s not into podcasts. For her, the little bite-size pieces helped her realize what’s happening when her husband lies about small things. Some women have a hard time leaning into the pain, because that doesn’t feel safe. And so just a little bit at a time is helpful to them. Every woman is different. On social media, we’re all equal. We can interact with other women who’ve been through it. Thanks for sharing that story about how my post on Instagram helped you. What else has helped you connect with yourself? Jenna The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop was super helpful. I found them healing and so sacred. They helped me connect with myself and visualize stepping into safety, when that’s scary for me in real life. It helped me visualize myself becoming empowered and accepting that I don’t know what’s going to happen. Also loving myself. There’s one where you revisit your younger self and express love. I felt like it was so healing and powerful for me. I love and value the meditations. Anne: Yeah, I remember you messaged me right after you did the, “I am just right” meditation. And you said you were crying. I assume those were good tears? Jenna: Oh, definitely. Yeah, it was the healing tears, where you just had that moment. You feel love for this part of yourself that needed that love. I just loved it. Anne: I wanted to do those betrayal meditations so that women could process their emotions differently. Which is similar with the infographics and metaphors. Abuse Education Is Available Through the BTR Podcast & Workshop Anne: Different types of content or services speak to women in different ways. I’m proud of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve created so many avenues for women to get educated about abuse. This podcast is obviously the best way to educate yourself about abuse. Because this podcast is mostly victim stories. And hearing other women’s experience. And realizing. Holy cow, my husband lies about small things, too. It’s so validating. Then having those visual representations of the concepts I teach on the podcast with the infographics on Instagram and on our social media channels is so helpful. The interaction is what makes social media so powerful. And Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the only organization that teaches the strategies of how to get to safety in such a detailed and practical way in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. And then, of course, we never leave any woman alone in this journey. To get help implementing the strategies you learned in the workshop, to get help actually applying the concepts you learn on social media or through this podcast. We have online group sessions with coaches that I personally trained. In our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, women share from the heart and get real-time face-to-face feedback from our coaches and other women in the group session. Our team is incredible. We are here for you! Our Whole Goal Is To Help Women Understand Abuse Anne: We really care, and it’s my goal and the goal of the whole Betrayal Trauma Recovery team to help every woman understand this. We don’t want anyone trapped in abuse. Like you, Jenna, you’ve been able to apply this stuff and get shelter from the storm. I’m so honored to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming on today. Jenna: Anne, thanks for all you’ve done for creating Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I love this community. It’s been so helpful to me. I’m really grateful. This episode makes sense on it’s own. However, if you want to hear more episodes with Jenna:1: Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience 2: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma3: How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story4: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight (THIS EPISODE)

​Are you looking for a therapist for trauma bonding​ because someone told you that you’re trauma bonded with your emotionally abusive husband (or ex)? Here’s what no one will tell you: What People Get Wrong About “Trauma Bonding” People often use the phrase “trauma bonding” to describe a victim’s attachment to an abusive partner. But traditionally, a trauma bond refers to something very different. True Trauma Bonding Examples A trauma bond forms when people go through a traumatic event together, such as: Siblings growing up in the same abusive home Friends surviving a violent घटना together A family experiencing a natural disaster In these cases, shared trauma created a bond. Both people were victims of the same event. That’s not what’s happening in an abusive relationship. Why “Therapy for Trauma Bonding” Can Be Misleading If you’re thinking about getting a therapist for trauma bonding, you may be trying to understand why you feel attached to someone who hurts you. But labeling your experience as a “bond” can unintentionally shift responsibility onto you. It can make it seem like: You’re choosing this connection You’re emotionally dependent in a way that’s your fault You need to “break your attachment” But what if the attachment isn’t something you created? What if he manufactured it? The Manufactured Relational Tether Instead of a trauma bond, what many women experience is something different: A manufactured relational tether. This happens he creates a cycle of: Chaos Confusion Emotional harm Intermittent relief He destabilizes you…then becomes the one who soothes you. Not because you chose it. But because it was engineered. It’s actually emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, take my free emotional abuse test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleyqobSRCQ How to Break a Trauma Bond without Therapy If you’ve been told you need therapy for trauma bonding, you may feel… dependent on him, even when you don’t want to both drawn to him and repelled by him confused by his words vs. his actions frustrated with yourself for not “just leaving” like this must somehow be your fault relief when he’s kind—even if it’s brief That doesn’t mean you’re “bonded” to him. But it does mean that he’s lying to you by creating cycles of harm and relief. If you’re trying to heal from your marriage without therapy, there’s another way. I’ll share it with you below. 14 Signs You Don’t Need a Therapist for Trauma Bonding​ He withdraws, then gives affection when you’re distressed when he… isolates you from supportive people makes you doubt your perception of reality alternates between kindness and cruelty controls resources like money or access undermines your confidence creates problems he later “fixes” pushes your boundaries repeatedly positions himself as the victim uses other people to provoke insecurity gives approval only sometimes acts different in public vs. private promises change but doesn’t follow through blames you for his behavior witholds affection This isn’t a mutual bond. It’s a pattern of control. Why This Distinction Matters If you believe you’re “trauma bonded,” you may think, I need to heal myself to break this bond. But if what you’re experiencing is manipulation, then the path forward is different. You don’t need to fix yourself. You need clarity. One woman shared: “I thought I was the problem because I couldn’t detach. But once I understood the pattern, everything changed.” Moving Forward (Without Blaming Yourself) Here’s the think, I don’t think you need therapy for trauma bonding, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need support. You may need someone to help you: See the pattern clearly Understand emotional and psychological abuse Learn how to protect yourself Rebuild trust in your own perception At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, women learn how to step out of confusion and into clarity. And once you can see it clearly, you can begin to move forward—with truth, with support, and with your sense of self intact. So how do you break free… Open up to a safe person or safe group, check out my online trauma bond support group. Become educated about betrayal trauma and what causes it Practice radical self-care daily Take my Living Free Workshop. “Best information source for betrayal trauma. Instead of unhelpful trauma bonding examples, this gave me hope that I could move forward. Thank you, Anne, for writing this.“ Many women don’t realize how dangerous this type of manipulation is. In fact, experts who work with trafficking victims describe the exact same cycles: grooming confusion emotional dependency intermittent kindness fear of leaving hope that he’ll change

When most people hear the word “controlling,” they imagine something obvious, like intimidation, yelling, locking doors, or constant threats. But often, the hidden signs husband is controlling your life are much quieter, even ordinary. They show up as concern, charm, or “helpfulness.” And sometimes, the most confusing part is this: a controlling husband may accuse you of being the controlling one. He twists reality until you start questioning your own motives, wondering if maybe he’s right. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. By the time the patterns become clear, many women already feel stuck—trapped between who they were told he was and who he’s revealed himself to be. What Are The Signs A Husband Is Controlling? 7 Questions to Ask If your husband has ever accused you of being controlling, it’s likely that he’s the one controlling. So before I get to our guest interview, here are seven questions to help you uncover the signs husband is controlling. Does his version of romance mean, he’s just pressuring you? When you raise concerns, does he dismiss these concerns or maybe blame shift or play the victim? When you say no, does he push past it, punish you, or guilt you so that you give in? Does he lean on you to carry his load, so much that you have to put your own load on the back burner. Do his kind gestures or gifts come with strings attached? Does he act like two different people: kind in public, but demeaning in private? Have you noticed your world shrinking? Less time for hobbies, friends, family, any outside support? Control is a domestic abuse issue, so it’s not about just one incident. The key is to look for patterns over time. If you see signs husband is controlling you and need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Transcript: How To Know If Your Husband Is Controlling in Marriage Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Candace. Candace felt nervous, so she actually prepared a written version of her story. She’s going to read sometimes, and then sometimes I’ll ask her questions. Here’s a poignant part of her story that illustrates the signs husband is controlling her. Candace: Before I knew him, he worked at the library on campus, and looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. He drove by my house with the excuse he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. He would then quote Bible verses to me that a wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband. I felt sick to my stomach, started questioning my own sanity, and said to myself, I’m broken. Anne: We will get to that part of her story in just a minute. Welcome, Candace. Candace: Thank you, Anne for having me. Anne: So Candace, let’s start at the beginning. How did you feel about your husband when you first met him? Candace: We met at college in my second year, and he knew me before I knew him, because he worked at the library on campus. He looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. Once he found my information and I was in his sight, as a good catch. He drove by my house with the excuse later he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. In my gut, I did not want to date him, and when he first asked me out, I said no. Early Signs husband is Controlling in Dating: When Romance Comes with Pressure Candace: But the next time he asked me, he asked me for a coffee, and I said, “You need to ask my dad.” Thinking my dad would say no, and that would be the end of it. My parents raised me in a Christian home, it was kind of implied. You needed to make sure the guy asked your dad before you went out. My dad said yes, Anne: Was there something about him that you thought your dad would say, she can’t go out with this guy? Candace: In the past, I had dated some other guys, and my dad was like, no, that one’s not good. So I’m thinking my dad’s just gonna say no, and it’ll be the end of it. And I won’t have to worry about it. But my husband was a very smooth guy, and he fooled us all. When my dad met him. He thought he was a professor, a smart person and stuff. We started dating, and I began to think this is my one chance. No other guy would want me, so I better go for it. He checks all the boxes. He’s a Christian, he’s nice to me. He loves me. He’s kind, and he would come to my work and leave notes on my car. We would go to the movies. We would hang out with my friend and family. I didn’t know to look for signs husband is controlling. When we played games. he was always very attentive and wanted to do everything with me. Then one time he invited me to his house. He was renting while still in college. And he made me supper. Then afterwards, we started watching a movie. He jumped on top of me, and I thought two things. Confessions and False Hope: Signs Husband Is Controlling Before Marriage Candace: One, get off me. I just want to watch the movie. And two, but he made me supper, so I better be good. I felt I couldn’t say no to his advances. Our clothes stayed on, but I still felt so violated after that. We dated for about a year. Then we were engaged for 10 months. My soon-to-be husband confessed an addiction to pornography before we married. Beginning when he was a teenager, looking at images on his computer. But he assured me that once we married, that would go away. Because there would be no more guilt, since he had a wife and could have all the sex he wanted. I remember going to my mom and telling her about what he confessed to me. I remember her saying to me, “It would be something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. And was I ready to do that?” I wasn’t even sure what it meant, so I said yes, I can do this. He loves me and it’ll be okay. I soon found out that no matter how much sex I gave my husband, he was still struggling with pornography. I would say the more sex I gave him, the more he got into the pornography, and he was good at keeping it a secret from me. He was very smart and very technical. He built his own computer, so he knew all the tricks to wipe his computer of his history going to these pornography sites. From Compliance to Control: The Patterns That Shaped Me Candace: In the first few months of our marriage, My husband confessed to me. He had fallen into temptation on his computer. I said, why would you do that when I was in the bed next to you? You could just ask me and I would give you sex. I grew up in a Christian home, went to church every Sunday. My parents homeschooled my siblings and me. We lived a pretty sheltered life. We were not a touchy feely sort of family. I knew they loved me and never doubted it. I was a very compliant child who always helped everyone, especially my mom raising my younger siblings. And I was a mom to my two youngest siblings and was good at doing the laundry, cleaning and making meals. One thing that stands out for me about my childhood is that I wasn’t allowed to show my feelings. If I was angry or sad, I was told to go to my room until I had a better attitude. So going into my marriage, I was always very compliant, didn’t complain, and if something needed to be done, I would do it. I thought I was not that smart or worthy, so I should be thankful that my husband picked me. But if I looked back and thought about it, I had put myself and my brother through college. I had a job, my own car and insurance, and no debt. My dream was to always be a mom to homeschool my kids. I married for that and wanted that the whole first year into my marriage. I think it was a few weeks after the honeymoon, when my in-laws came to my husband one day and said I needed birth control. Was this evidence of signs husband is controlling? Signs Husband is Controlling You Through Rage, Manipulation, and Fear Candace: This would be too much for my husband if we had a child right away. I did not listen to them, and I got pregnant early in our first year of marriage. I miscarried in October, about 10 weeks along in my pregnancy, and I felt devastated and blamed myself. My husband was happy that I had miscarried. He didn’t have to feed and care for another person, and that hurt me all the more. My miscarriage, my husband’s rage started to come out. Rage is one of the other signs husband is controlling. I don’t remember what the fights were about, but one time he was angry about something, to the point where he was about to put his hands around my neck to choke me. Another time early into our marriage. I was so scared of his rage that I locked myself in the bathroom and called his parents to come. Once they arrived, my husband is sitting at the piano playing as if nothing would ever happen. My husband got fired from his job. His story was that he got angry about having to work late, so he did something to one of the work vehicles so it wouldn’t start. Another event that stands out in my mind while we were living in the trailer park with our neighbor beside us didn’t like us for whatever reason, and one day I decided to go over with a tin of cookies as a peace offering. My husband came with me. We went up to the door. My husband knocked, and the neighbor didn’t come to the door. So my husband yells, I know you’re in there. The neighbor answers the door, and I hand the cookies over and say something nice. When Others See The Signs Husband Is Controlling Candace: I don’t remember what my husband says, but the neighbor takes offense and closes the door in my husband’s face. At this point, he’s angry and bangs on the door. The neighbor opens the door and tells me to get my husband off their porch. All I could think was what just happened? And why did my husband become so angry? Anne: If you had to guess right now, what would you say happened with the neighbors? Candace: I think she knew something was off with my husband. She, from the get go, did not like us living beside her and renting. And if he had his vehicle over on a little patch of a grass, she would yell at him. I don’t know if she was in tune with that. Anne: Or maybe she’d caught him looking in her window? So he had told you he had a thing with pornography. Did he end up going to a program? Candace: So my husband decided to get help for his pornography addiction. Pornography is one of the signs husband is controlling. He joined an online men’s program specifically, and he had a mentor in that program. He also talked to our pastor about it, so our pastor was aware of it as well. And we also had an older couple in our church that mentored both of us. I’ll never forget, she said, “Just give your husband more sex. Why are you withholding that from your husband?” Once our fourth child was born, I went into deep baby blues, and one night I had just finished nursing and headed back to bed. At 4:45 in the morning, my husband wanted sex and just raped me. When Signs husband is Controlling Intensify Behind Closed Doors Candace: For years after, he would make jokes about it, saying 4:45, 4:45. I didn’t think it was rape at the time, I thought it was my wifely duty to make sure my husband got sex whenever he wanted. I felt used and dirty, I did not understand it at all. But in my body, I knew something wasn’t right. I discovered that anything I did tell him, he would save and then pull it out again whenever it suited him. This lack of respect for me was one of the signs hisband is controlling. We started having more fights, and it was usually around me not communicating right. He started to see a therapist for his depression, but also for our marriage. Since I didn’t communicate properly. Anne: Oh, my word, I’m so sorry. I hear these stories every day, and it’s still heartbreaking every time. It’s awful. When he started seeing the therapist, was this his idea? Candace: It was his idea, yes. Anne: As you’re sharing your story, I think many women think, well, if he would just get into a program or go to therapy, maybe we could solve our problems. Did you think that at all before he went to the program or before he went to therapy? Candace: Because he had struggled with depression, I thought he needed help. I didn’t know enough about the pornography and his secret sexual basement to know how to deal with that. So when he started going to therapists, it was just for the depression. Then he was like, maybe you should come to for our marriage, because we were starting to have more arguments and such. Anne: Okay, and when he started going to therapy for his depression. Did you think things are gonna get better? He ripped up My written Thoughts Anne: Can you take me back to your mindset back then? Not knowing what you know now, obviously, ’cause we don’t know. All of us were in that stage. I thought this therapist will help us. What was your feeling about him going to therapy? Candace: Yeah, I thought it would help. Our first session, my husband complained about me not communicating well. I thought I’m naturally a quiet person and prefer to listen to people instead of forcing my opinion. The therapist told me I was to go home and write down my thoughts that I wanted to share with my husband. The next session, these thoughts were on a paper, ready to read to the therapist. My husband and I started reading it. And I don’t remember what I had written. But my husband got so angry that he walked out of this session and left without saying a word. He was gone for about 30 minutes, and a therapist didn’t know what to do. And said to me, This has never happened to him before. It wasn’t really a shock to me, because that’s what my husband would do if he didn’t get what he wanted. He would drive off and then come back as if nothing had happened. Yet, another of the signs husband is controlling. So once my husband finally returned to the therapist’s office, the therapist said it would be best for my husband to rip up the papers I had written and throw them into the fireplace. So, my husband did that right there. It made me feel like nothing I said mattered. It was only about my husband. We also attended some conferences. One of them was about prayer. Told I needed to dwell on my husband’s good traits Candace: I had an encounter or vision that I was in a bright area with light all around. The light felt safe and warm. And then Jesus wrapped me in his arms, and I felt completely safe and at peace. He said, “I’ve got you.” My husband did not have anything like that, which I thought was so strange. Anne: Were these marriage conferences? Candace: Yeah. The first one was, the second was a conference specifically for couples dealing with infidelity and pornography addiction. And at that conference, we had a couple that mentored us. I’ll never forget what the wife of the husband mentor said to me. She gave me a notebook and said I needed to write down all the good traits of my husband and dwell on those things instead of being negative. I never did that. We are also part of a Bible study group that met once a week. We had one night the topic of forgiveness, and I asked the leader, “How long do you have to forgive someone if they keep hurting me with the same thing over and over and over again?” They didn’t have an answer for me. Back home, my husband was so upset with me. Because he said I had put it on him, and I was like, I wish I hadn’t said anything. But at the same time, I wanted to know. What do you do? And at that point I still didn’t know about signs husband is controlling and boundaries. Anne: Did you ask that in front of your husband at the time Candace: Yes, yes I did. Anne: He was there and he heard the question? Okay. Candace: But I didn’t say any names or stuff like that. I just said in general. Signs husband is controlling: every vacation my husband has a Blow up Candace: I was a busy mom looking after four kids now, homeschooling them. I did everything that needed to be done, when your husband doesn’t help with housework. He worked all day. And then came home and be on his computer or phone. If I asked him to do something, it took forever, so I became independent and did everything around the house. So it’s my job to run the house, even do the outdoor work. I did it all. I rarely left my kids alone with my husband. If I did, it was only for a short time. I took my kids everywhere with me. There were two times that he watched them. That was when my one child broke their arm walking around the outside of the trampoline. And another time, my child cut their forehead deep enough that it needed stitches. But because my husband didn’t think it was too serious, he didn’t do anything. I told my husband to take our child to the hospital to get the arm x-rayed to see if it was broken. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been checked out. As the kids got older, we went on family trips. And every vacation, my husband had some kind of blow up over the strangest thing. One time we camped and he got all upset with me that I didn’t have my phone with me. And he tried to text me. He said he was almost going to call a missing person search on me. I was so confused since it wasn’t a big camp. I was at the beach fishing with my nephews, and why would I have my phone on me at camp? We still had fights every couple of weeks about him not getting enough texts from me. Things start to fall apart during Covid Candace: He would then quote Bible verses to me. “A wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband.” It made me sick to my stomach, and I started questioning my own sanity and saying to myself, I’m broken. There must be something wrong with me. But I don’t like sex and never have our entire marriage. My husband also liked having long discussions late into the night. And sometimes even. woke me up to have a long talk about something that he felt was important to talk about. I always felt worse after the long talk and questioned myself, whereas my husband was always so happy. Things started to fall apart when COVID hit, and my husband moved back home and had a home office. He loved being at home and could come down whenever he wanted to check on us, have lunch with us, go for walks. I hated it. I was now seeing more signs husband is controlling, and he loved having control. It got so bad, He would pick all the movies he could watch, the music, we could listen to. If my friends came over, he had to sit with us and dominate the conversation. And if we went anywhere in the vehicle, he would pick the music. If I put earbuds in to listen to something else, he would get upset with me. so I wasn’t allowed to do that. He would control the temperature in the house with his phone, so if I changed it, he would put it back. I started to have conversations with my sister about what was going on and how I was feeling, Anne: Did your husband know? Candace: Yes, he’d say, “Hey, I love you. You are just depressed.” I recognize the abuse Candace: At this point, my sister starts sending me YouTube videos to watch about narcissists, and I start going down the rabbit trail. I started listening to a podcast, but something was still missing for me. And then she had you on Anne as a guest on one of her podcasts, and right away that was the piece missing. You told it like it was. Pornography is abuse, and that’s exactly what I’d experienced. I started to become a little caterpillar, eating it all up. At some point in my journey, I moved out of the bedroom and slept upstairs with my kids. I bought a mattress and just moved it around from room to room. My kids wanted to have me up there, because they started to have bad dreams. And were afraid to come out of their rooms when my husband was in the house. My husband now became a spiritual leader, and had to read the Bible to us at every meal and pray for us if we left the house. It was crazy. He said he had found the Holy Spirit, and now truly knew what it meant to be a Christian. He told me I needed to forgive and move forward, because he no longer did pornography, and I could trust him. A week later, he gets my phone and reads all my messages to see what I’ve been saying to my sister. Trust, huh? Anne: Really quick, did you tell him you were listening to BTR or tell him anything about BTR at the time? Candace: No, I did not tell him. I kept that all very quiet. Anne: Okay. Going to my husband’s therapist: signs husband is controlling Candace: My sister warned me too. She said, the more you tell him, the more ammunition he will use, because he was still seeing a therapist, and he’s just giving him more tools for his tool belt that he can use against you. Anne: Yeah, increasing tools. Candace: Then he confessed he read my phone, but it was okay if I wanted to open my own bank account. And I was like, thank you. I’m glad I have your permission now. Anne: Wow. Candace: So my husband then wants me to meet with his therapist of 15 years. And at first I said no, because he had built a relationship with him for a long time and it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t wanna repeat my words being ripped up and thrown into the fire again. But my husband persisted and said his therapist worked with couples all the time and marriage problems. So I met with his therapist without my husband, and I say to the therapist, my husband always has the right words, and no one will ever believe me. The therapist says he’s not going to be fooled. And proceeds to tell me how I need to encourage my husband and welcome him back when he punched through the door yet again. Another therapist doesn’t see it. It was only about saving the marriage at the cost of losing more of myself, to lift my husband up. I never had another session with the therapist and instead kept listening to more and more BTR podcasts. My sister warned me not to go to another session or couple session with my husband. Finally a therapist believes me Candace: And she then recommended a therapist that deals specifically with abuse. The first session I go to, I say to the therapist, “My husband Is a words guy and always has the right words to say. I can never get it right no matter what I say. And no one will ever believe me if I said I’ve been abused.” Or believe signs husband is controlling. And she shows me an apple and said, if I cut this apple on the outside, you would see all the marks I’ve made. But if I take that same apple and drop it on the floor or bang it against the table, it still looks fine from the outside. If I cut open that apple, you would see it’s all bruised inside. That is what you are going through. I said to her, “All I have to do is survive until my youngest is 18 years old.” And she says to me, after I tell her more of my story, that I probably only had about two years before my husband did something more drastic to keep me stuck. Because he’s going to realize I’m pulling away even more. And his outbursts are becoming more and more potent, and using words against me, by saying, “I promised I would stay for the kids, divorce is not an option, we’ll go bankrupt. We made a covenant before God about marriage. Are you breaking that covenant of God?” By October I found out what boundaries are, and I put it through Christ to protect myself because my body was now shaking. Or it felt like my skin was on fire, burning my flesh. my husband smashes my kid’s pumpkin Candace: I asked him not to touch me, not make comments about how beautiful I look, was that he loves me so much, stepping over those boundaries. Then he had another blow up after returning from a business trip. We had carved pumpkins. My oldest carved a Disney character from a movie. My husband said it was a devil pumpkin and wanted me to get rid of it. I refused and said it was not a devil pumpkin. My husband then took the pumpkin and smashed the pumpkin in the driveway. My oldest was devastated and confused about why he would smash that pumpkin. And not our youngest siblings pumpkin carved a witch on it. I was still sleeping upstairs and had moved in more permanently to my second oldest child. I went to my therapist again and told about the pumpkin smash and other blow ups that were happening. M y therapist said I didn’t have years, but months now before it would escalate again. So in November, my husband was on another business trip. My kids and I packed up all we could with the help of some friends and family, and moved to my parents’ house. One of the friends that helped us move commented later about how shocking it was to see my kids looking very happy. Instead of sad and crying, it’s like they knew it was bad enough. My dad and I met with my husband 5 days later to discuss things. My dad, being very insightful, put a no trespass order on his place. So, my husband could not stalk us. The Moment I See signs Husband Is Controlling Everything Candace: My dad also had my husband sign a paper that said he would continue to look after the kids and I and not cancel my credit card or my phone. My husband kept saying to my dad, people don’t understand, I don’t understand why my wife wants to leave me. My husband would send emails picking days that would work for him to see the kids, and I responded back by saying they didn’t wan to visit with him at this time. I also found my kids and I had nightmares a lot now, and I wasn’t sure what that was. Our bodies dealing with the trauma. At the end of December, I sent my husband an email saying he had three options. One, let the kids and I move back into the house, and he finds his own place to live. Two, we sell the house and both find our own places. Or three, both hire lawyers and duke it out, so to speak. He sends back that he wants to talk things out with me, and he doesn’t like to get into a legal battle. He then removes me from our joint email account, so I can no longer have access to our bank account, credit card or phone bills, nothing. And then over the next month, he removes me from other things we shared on our phones or deletes messages he sent to me on our app. and lies to me that it’s normal for things to disappear on the app after a while. Anne: When he started doing this, were you surprised? That happened to me too. It happens to so many of us. Signs Husband is Controlling: Financial Manipulation and Legal Traps Anne: But before it happened in my mind, I still hadn’t wrapped my head around what I was dealing with. So when he shut down the bank account, I was in shock. When you started seeing signs husband is controlling access to accounts, how did you feel? Candace: Yes, I was definitely in shock after he started shutting me from the email account, because I’m like, why? Why would you do that? We’ve had this joint one for years. Anne: Especially after he’s just said, Hey, let’s just talk. We can work it out. It’s like what? You’ve just said. Candace: Mm-hmm. Anne: Everything will be okay, and then you do that. Candace: Yeah, and the thing was, he said about the email too, that was an alias for mine actually. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Because then said, well, I’ll just forward you stuff. So he forwarded me stuff from that email address. I’m like, you can’t tell me it’s an alias for your other one. It just didn’t make sense to me. Anne: It didn’t make sense ’cause he was lying. Candace: Exactly. So in January, I go to the bank to get access to the joint account. Something was off at the meeting with the banker. And then I find out later, my husband has closed our savings account. And I only have access to the checking account. Two weeks later, I get a message from his lawyer saying I have to the end of the month to seek my own lawyer. I can’t go into detail right now. Anne: So he lies to you and says, Hey, let’s just work it out. Can we just talk? In the meantime, he is getting his own lawyer. He’s forcing the kids to visit him Anne: In the meantime, he is shutting down all the bank accounts, moving money, doing all the things. And then when he is ready, he is like, okay, now you have to get your own lawyer. But before he is like, no, let’s just chat. Everything will work out. It is deliberately lying to you so that he could prepare. Candace: Very deliberate, yeah, so I can’t go into too much detail right now. All I can say is we’re going through hell. Every step along the way has been difficult. Trying to protect my kids, who are forced to visit their dad. My husband is good at playing the victim, and he keeps saying, I have no idea. My therapist says your kids are of the age, so they can choose whether or not they go. But because I’m in this collaborative process and they say that I have told my kids that their dad is this horrible person, I need to tell my kids that he’s so lovable, and we need to go there and have a great time with your dad. Anne: It is like reunification therapy basically. Candace: It is just so frustrating right now. Anne: I’m so sorry. It’s an extension of the abuse. And he probably knew that and prepared for that, and then got you stuck in it. Candace: Yeah, and my lawyer, I didn’t share a lot of information because I knew it would get back to my husband . So probably like three or four meetings in my lawyer said, I just wanna have a talking with you one-on-one. I get the impression that this is not going right, and that you’re not happy with this process. Court ordered to send the kids to their dad’s Candace: And she’s like, I wanna hear your story. So I was like, here’s what’s happening. I said, my kids and I are trying to get out of this safe. And she says, okay, that makes a lot of sense. She is more on my side now, but at the beginning, and I was the only one in the room fighting for myself. Everybody in that room was all about my husband and what he needed, and he was just a great guy, and I had turned the kids against him. Anne: I am so, so sorry. It is awful, and it’s happening with everyone. Women trying to get to safety, can’t get to safety because they’re court ordered or put through this process that makes it worse, and they miss these signs husband is controlling. And you wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be like this, but it’s really bad right now. I am so sorry. I’m glad you know what’s going on. That is great, but it’s almost like more traumatizing to know what is going on and that you can’t get help. Candace: And it hurts so much because I’m like, this is a person I trusted. How can that person I thought I could trust be so the opposite, like my husband is lying to me. And to him, it’s all about the money and those kids. Because he cannot get to me anymore, he wants those kids. Every weekend, the kids have to go to his house. My youngest son right now, he said, Mom, I used to love weekends, and now I hate them. Here’s the other thing that gets interesting. I joined BTR and started attending the BTR sessions. I met Coach Jo, and Coach Sharon. Our family wizard works to help signs husband is controlling Candace: I also listened to the podcasts and had listened to Coach Jo’s story. Then I enrolled in the Living Free Workshop. My eyes were finally open, and I could see the signs husband is controlling as I go through all this legal stuff. And the message has been so helpful. Like you say in the workshop. And I talked with Coach Jo, my lawyer, and his lawyer recommended Our Family Wizard. My husband made a big stink about Our Family Wizard. But I was like, “No, we’re doing this Family Wizard.” I’ve sent him two messages on there, and I love it. I think it’s a great way to do parenting and figure out the scheduling and all that. I was like, this is so easy to use because I am not technical at all. Yet, my husband, who’s very technical, doesn’t want it because he is not in control. Anne: Well, it also, he has to be accountable. Every thing he writes or does is documented. And you can’t say, oh, I didn’t get it, because it says when you got it. Or you can’t say, yeah, I’m reading the messages, because it says if you read it or not. Candace: Yes, and I love that feature, ’cause I can just go in, I’m like, “Nope, he hasn’t seen it yet. Nope, he hasn’t been on yet,” But the lawyers agree with it. Then my husband went to his lawyer and said, “I’m really concerned about BTR. Because it talks about abuse and DARVO and all this stuff.” I was then told I needed to get off that. I’m not allowed to have a support group Anne: Wait, who told you you couldn’t listen to a podcast and go to a support group? Your lawyers? Candace: His lawyer, because he had said BTR was abusive. And he was really concerned, because it wasn’t teaching me good things. It was teaching me that pornography was abuse. I put it on my credit card. Anne: So quick, this issue of the credit card is a concern for many women, so we actually made a change. Any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. That actually goes to a dummy wellness site, talks about hormones on there. So if your husband sees help.btr.org and he goes to that site, it doesn’t even have any information really. You can check it out. We couldn’t do a totally random site. It had to be recognizable, because for a while we did like a completely random site, and women did not recognize the charge. And then they ended up disputing, and then they were like, no, wait, I do want your services. So as she talks about this, know that now any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. Which is that dummy wellness site. Getting abuse education is bad for abuse victims, apparently. Candace: Apparently, but he was allowed to have whatever group he wanted, but as soon as I had a group, oh no. That was not allowed. Yeah, it made no sense. Anne: Heaven forbid you find out what he is doing. They’re like, oh shoot, that is what I do. She’ll know exactly what I’m doing. Candace: Yes, I’m from a Christian background. Still walking and going forward Candace: I have done the meditations in the workshop to calm my body. The first one, I don’t even know what the right word is, but I could picture myself with the lights. It was so peaceful, and it felt so wonderful to have that feeling again after being in this fight and flight mode so much. Anne: I am so glad. I’m so glad you found Living Free helpful. It took me a long time to create all the illustrations. And the videos in that format. ‘Cause it’s so drastically different than anything a therapist will tell you or anything, like a court professional will tell you, they’ll, I’ll say stuff like, make sure you communicate clearly. Apparently, if you were the world’s most perfect communicator, your problems would go away with this guy. So, because it’s so drastically different, I was like I really need to do visuals so women can process it. Candace: I was like, oh, that makes so much sense now, I’m very visual. And to picture that in my mind what was happening. Yeah, and I also remember being in a group session with Coach Jo, and she said to me, “Imagine you’re walking up a mountain, but you’re like going around it because you can’t go straight up. You have to go around it. And on one side of the mountain, you’re on the light. It’s very bright, sunny, and beautiful, but on the backside it’s very dark and shadow, and sometimes we’re on the bright side and sometimes we’re on the dark side. You’re still going up.” And that has stuck with me, where I’m still walking and going forward. Signs husband is controlling: I still question myself Candace: But there are times where it is super hard and there are times where it’s like super good and I’m just like, wow. Like I’m so thankful. Anne: I think that’s another thing that Living Free really helps women understand and see signs husband is controlling. The reason it’s gonna be hard, and the reason it’s gonna be very hard, is because of their character and the way they interact. They’re in that cave and doing what they’re doing on purpose. So there’s never gonna be a time, unfortunately, where they realize that what they’re doing is hurting us because they know they’re doing it, and that was hard for me to understand. Candace: Well, I did go over it with my daughter a couple of times. Because I find that I still question myself at times and say, “Would it have been better to stay in the marriage and keep my head down?” A very close friend of mine sent me this, and I just wanna read it. She wrote, “I know how much of a struggle it can be making the hard decisions. I’m sorry, you’re having to walk the road of even having to make them. Yes, your kids are hurting, and so are you. Do you honestly think they’re hurting because you left your husband, or because of what your husband has and is still doing? Staying wouldn’t have made it any better. If your kids are getting to an age where it was obvious something was going on, it would’ve hurt no matter what. And that’s not your fault. That’s a consequence of your husband’s choice.” having Him out of my space made the biggest difference Candace: “God has you, and he is in all the details. It doesn’t make sense now, but hopefully someday it will.” That really spoke to me that day. There will be hard days, but there’s also good days ahead. Anne: It’s hard to see who they are until we actually get some distance, and then once we do, it’s so shocking. It’s hard for our eyes to process it. I felt like, and I’m not sure if you feel like this. Even though it’s so hard right now, at least not having him in my space, it made the biggest difference. Candace: Yes. The biggest thing for me is now that I’m out of that and living here. I feel okay with myself now. Anne: Oh, that’s great. Also to know that you were always okay, and there was never anything wrong with you. You just needed to get away from the harm. The thing that was hurting you would stop. You didn’t have to go through a year of therapy, and so many women who are going through therapy or some kind of program or whatever, with this abusive man thinking they’ve got something wrong with them that they need to work on.They might have some things that aren’t healthy that they may be doing as a result of being abused, but safety is the treatment. Candace: Right, yes. Anne: Candace, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. Thank you so much. Candace: Thank you so much for having me on.

Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm. When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway. To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. 1. Narcissists Groom Victims With Compliments He’ll Later Use To Attack You Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you. This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation. 2.Narcissists Groom With DARVO DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them. 3. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet. Abuse is a choice. When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) because of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above. Full Transcript: 3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims Anne: Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea. Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy. As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds. First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize.Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt.And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior. So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea. Chelsea: Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much. Anne: When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse? Chelsea: No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first. Anne: When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right? 1. Narcissists Groom By Giving Compliments They Will Later Attack You With Chelsea: I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why. Anne: So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me. Chelsea: Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends. I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that. He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill. He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started. Recognizing The Abuse Anne: This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave. Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning. Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am. Chelsea: Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous. I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him. Narcissists Groom Victims Off & On To Keep Them Hooked I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser. To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good. Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant. https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life. I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did. Anne: So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially? Chelsea: Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now. Horror Honeymoon With an Abuser I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible. Anne: A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful. So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse. It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse? Chelsea: So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career. I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time. Anne: Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job? Chelsea: He’s in the military. Anne: Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job. Narcissists Groom By Making Them Fully Dependent On Him Chelsea: Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it. Anne: What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors? Chelsea: Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean? Anne: If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something. Narcissists Groom By Blame Shifting Chelsea: Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with. He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it. Anne: Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse? Chelsea: Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser. Anne: I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player. The “Toxic” Lie That Narcissists Use To Groom Victims (& Therapists) Chelsea: Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving. Anne: Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive. Chelsea: Yeah, I think that’s part of it. Anne: Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff. In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with. When Therapists Don’t Call Out Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know. In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused? At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me. Anne: Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR? Chelsea: The podcast. Anne: So you start listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And then did you start attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Chelsea: I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR Anne: You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing? DARVO Is A Way Narcissists Groom Victims Chelsea: I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly. How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things . Anne: So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO. So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape, Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed. So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Process Trauma & Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it. I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much. Anne: I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate. Chelsea: I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you? I Get To Decide if I Want to Be In This Situation Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was. I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening. Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me. Anne: I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get divorced from this narcissist. For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that? Find Validation in the BTR Group Sessions Chelsea: From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support. Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know. It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not. Anne: We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR. Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is to help women gain safety. Narcissists Groom Victims With Gaslighting From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused? Chelsea: For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist husbands use gaslighting to groom victims. The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages. Anne: I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage. Chelsea: That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way. When Narcissists Groom Therapists Anne: Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex. Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem. Anne: It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever. If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy. Narcissists Groom Victims With The Unwitting Help Of Therapists And Counselors Chelsea: To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person. Anne: Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy. Chelsea: Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do. Anne: Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it. Chelsea: Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore. That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work? Narcissists Groom Victims As Part of the Cycle of Abuse Anne: That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right? Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand. They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good. I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too. Chelsea: This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally. Anne: So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good? Narcissists Groom In Order To Maintain Control Anne: An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference. In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal. He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are. Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction. Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love. Narcissists Groom Victims To Protect Themselves & Exploit” Anne: When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else. So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive. For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie. The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit. Chelsea: That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever. A Narcissist Does Not See His Victim As A Person Anne: In moments like that, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you,” it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care. So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation. My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with. The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation. It’s Not Your Fault You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different. I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well. Anne: Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you. She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason. Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior. Chelsea: Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began. It’s A Red Flag When They Start The Relationship With a Sob Story Anne: Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there. If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating. That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship. Chelsea: We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one. I Am Whole. I Am Working My Way To Healing Anne: A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well. That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through. Anne: Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that. Narcissists Groom with Misdirection One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left. He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out. In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable. That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all. Many women experience this. They think, He’s not attracted to me, or I upset him and he stormed out. They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, See? I need to go. Chelsea: Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Anne: Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, Is this really for me? Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first. Chelsea: I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful. There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened. I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone. Support The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Anne: Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe. I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much. Chelsea: Thank you for having me. Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.

If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening. But here’s what almost no one tells you: Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women. Not every counselor understands. And not every institution knows how to help you. Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help. And then you’ll meet Haley, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms. Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are seeking help blamed or minimized told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them pushed into silence left without the clarity or support they needed If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support. 1. A Support Group for Marriage Problems isn’t usually Built for Clarity A lot of marriage-based groups focus on: communication skills mutual responsibility serving each other But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage, 2. If You’re UnSURE what’s Going On With Your Husband, It’s Likely Not A Marriage Problem Women often think: “He isn’t always like this.” “I’m probably overreacting.” “He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.” But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you. 3. Institutions Often Protect the Person Hurting You This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same. The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past. 4. WHEN Manipulative Men Use Systems to Their Advantage, a support group for marriage problems is essential This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and … charming counselors throwing her under the bus with church leaders appearing calm while you appear shaken using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic” That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them. 5. The Best Support for Marriage Problems Is Confidential A true support group for marriage problems should: protect your confidentiality help you trust your instincts give you clarity never push you toward something that scares you Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session As You Listen to This Episode… Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were… doubted blamed minimized If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Transcript: When You Don’t Know Where To Turn For Help Anne: We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Hailey share her story. Welcome Nicole. Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Anne: I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research? Nicole: I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news.  It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women. Seeking help through the Title ix office parallels seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help. Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it? The Primary concern of the title ix office Nicole: There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic. So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts. the System focuses on what it means for the perpetrator Nicole: You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability. You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator. This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. Metaphor of hot stove with women in scenarios including a support group for marriage problems Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her. To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. Nicole: I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next. Anne: This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.” Nicole: Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?” victims just want to feel safe Nicole: And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?” And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail. the Title ix debate Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.” Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison. Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included. So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence. Colleges don’t follow the law and women seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced. And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about. Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration. Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.” Nicole: Certainly. Inside Higher Ed conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true. The Law captures national attention Nicole: By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.” But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything. A guest speaker example Nicole: And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are. “Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman. The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space. Men accused don’t have bad things happen to them: finding a support group for marriage problems Nicole: But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police. That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense. Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. Nicole: I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way. Accumulated fantasies of disaster Nicole: He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked. Anne: That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. Anne: Yeah, they like it. Nicole: Yes! Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called the Living Free Workshop, Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. The dean of students facilitated a perpetrators transfer Nicole: So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled. It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.” What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. Everything is backwards: victim blaming and finding a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. Anne: Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse. Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately. And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.” Anne: It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying. No one is helping victims transfer to a new school Nicole: A good point. Anne: The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems. Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence. Institutional betrayal is overwhelming Nicole: Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people. Anne: I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a support group for marriage problems doesn’t help them, my eye twitches. Nicole: I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution. Setting realistic expectations when seeking a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen. Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.” And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.” We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case. And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?” Nicole: Oh my. Go to a confidential community Anne: So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly. Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems. What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. Recognizing consequences are not unfair to the perpetrator Nicole: You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” Nicole: Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. Anne: And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.” Nicole: Yeah. Anne: Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this. Nicole: I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.” retaliatory complaints by perpetrators: help from a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women. What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.” Empathizing with the perpetrator Nicole: It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim. Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended. Nicole: Yeah, people are offended. Anne: And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims. Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.” Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.” And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. Victims may lose friends, family and have to switch schools Nicole: The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?” That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.” This is very, very reasonable to ask for. Anne: 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today. Nicole: Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. Anne: Yeah, thank you. Hailey’s Story of reporting on a campus Anne: So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley. Haley: Hi, thank you. Anne: Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember. Haley: I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code. Anne: I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways. Haley: Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible. I felt a responsibility to speak out Haley: I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on. I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me. I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing. Anne: Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today. The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend. experiences with the honor code office Anne: Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men. Haley: I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me. I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.” And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support. And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.” Blame for the problem: parallels with help for finding a support group for marriage problems Haley: She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time. Anne: For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization. Haley: And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful. Anne: Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault. Haley: Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful. Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed? Theme’s in dealing with the Honor Code Office Haley: I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this. Anne: If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand. Haley: They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced. Anne: We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation? Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office? Advice for victims Haley: I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too. If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this. Anne: So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear? Haley: I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems. Overwhelming and heartwarming to connect with others in a support group for marriage problems or victims Haley: Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them. It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave. Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change. Anne: I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change. Haley: Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations.

If you’re searching how to deal with angry husband, it’s probably because you’ve already tried everything—being understanding, being patient, being quieter, being “better,” being the emotional shock-absorber for the whole house. And yet… nothing changes. Before you take another step, here’s the most important truth you need to hear: Your safety—emotional, physical, spiritual—is the priority.Everything else is secondary.His “anger issue” is not yours to decode. So many women spend years trying to figure out why their husband is angry: Is he stressed? Does he need therapy? Did I say something wrong? Is it childhood trauma? Is it me? But here’s what women discover in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery community again and again: Men who don’t want to be angry, aren’t. Men who use anger to control the people around them use anger as a tactic. Can He Control His Anger? Watch What He Does in Public One of the clearest signs something deeper is happening is this: He has no trouble keeping it together in public.Around friends, coworkers, church members, your kids’ teachers… he’s calm, charming, composed. But at home? He unleashes. If you’re living this split reality, there’s definately something deeper going on. You’re not imagining it. I Used to Think My Husband Had an Anger Problem How to deal with angry husband? I thought my husband needed anger management. He even took multiple courses, including anger boot camp. Nothing changed. Because he didn’t have an anger problem. His problem was something else entirely. How to Deal With Angry Husband: 10 Questions That Reveal the Truth If you’ve been wondering how to deal with angry husband, start here.These 10 questions help clarify whether his anger is situational… or something that’s eroding your sense of safety. If you answer yes to any of these, it’s worth paying closer attention to the pattern—not the excuse. Do you often feel hurt, ashamed, or embarrassed after his anger? Are you afraid to upset him because you fear he’ll leave you or punish you emotionally? Have you spent time searching for clues about why he’s angry—as if there’s a hidden code to crack? Has he made subtle or direct threats?(Example: “Touch is my love language… I get depressed when you pull away.” Translation: Give me sex or pay for it later.)  Do you find yourself trying to predict his moods and make things perfect for him anticipating his anger?  Have you tried describing how angry he gets to other people, but they don’t seem to understand? Do you feel confused about what’s true versus what he claims when he’s angry? Have you ever used sex to smooth things over or prevent him from becoming angry? Do you feel emotionally abandoned because of his anger?  Do you feel like sometimes you caused his anger? If any of these hit close to home, it’s important to know your husband’s anger has nothing to do with you, other than the fact that he’s using it to control you. So actually… How to Deal With Angry Husband? Well, it’s sort of a trick question. Women in our community start feeling clearer when they shift from: ❌ “How do I help him?”to✔️ “How do I help myself and my kids be safe, emotionally and physically?” That shift changes everything. Our daily online group for women who have been betrayed in this way can validate and support you. Your Next Step Toward Clarity For deeper clarity, my Living Free Workshop walks you step-by-step through understanding what’s really going on, without pressure for you to do anything, without therapy jargon, and without being told to “just work on the marriage.” You’re not asking for too much. You deserve emotional safety and peace. To discover if you’re actually experiencing emotional abuse, take this free this test has 19 emotional abuse examples that women often miss. Transcript: How to Deal With Angry Husband Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. I have Janice and Cameron on the podcast today. They’re gonna share a part of their story about how to deal with angry husband. Janice, why don’t you go ahead and let’s start with your story. Janice: Thank you, Anne. I appreciate it. I was a victim of domestic abuse, but I didn’t recognize it. All of those years, while in that marriage, we would reach out to counselors, pastors. Usually we’d go to a pastor first and they would treat it like a marital problem. And most of the time, the attempts to get help made things worse. It really just boggled my mind that everywhere I turned to get help, whether it be the courts, law enforcement, counselors, nobody knew how to deal with our situation. I came through a church where the pastor didn’t know what to do. He thought that I should just get out of the marriage. And when he told me that, I thought, well, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I went to a church that believed more like I did, and they told me, well, you need to submit as long as he’s not asking you to sin. And the more I submitted or obeyed or bowed down to him, the more things would get worse. Submission was taught Like obedience Anne: Yeah, I went through a similar experience. I felt like I was like facing this problem head on. I just don’t know exactly what the problem is. And everyone I went to for help didn’t tell me what it was. And so I did everything right. But the people supposed to help me did not help. You mentioned your pastor said, “You should consider divorce,” And you thought to yourself, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I actually hear that a lot. Women hear my podcast and they think I’m like pro-divorce or maybe not Christian or something. When I very, very much am. And I think Jesus doesn’t want women abused. Janice: Absolutely. I had actually grown up in a pretty liberal church, and then after marriage I moved to one with strict teaching on men’s and women’s roles. Submission was taught like obedience. And then of course all the years I became a homeschool mom, listening to things like Focus on the Family. Where they talk about how your children will be better off if you stay married, that a divorce is so painful and hurtful to children, and my own parents had divorced. So I really did not believe in divorce. And it got to the point that my daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, said, Mom, why don’t you just get out? And I said, God hates divorce. I kept asking myself, what does God say about divorce and marriage? But I had about a million things in my head that I had come to believe, put there by my husband. He would say things like, You need to submit. I’m the head of this house. He would use scripture to keep me under control. Interpreting abuse as only physical Anne: How did you realize that submitting to abuse or evil wasn’t what Jesus wanted? Janice: I don’t even know if I came to that recognition until after I got out. My ex was a physician, so we worked with a psychologist one-on-one for a week. I had been telling myself, this is not abuse. He doesn’t mean it. He just flips out and he really can’t control it. It’s like a little nervous breakdown, but I realized he used everything against me, and that is not physical violence. Before that, I interpreted abuse as only physical, and I had had some incidents, but they were few and far between. We could go years with no physical abuse, but then when they did happen, I would get shoved or blocked in a room. it did build up and was worse there towards the end than in the beginning. Anne: Me too. I think I only had maybe three like episodes where he actually touched me, and he didn’t really even harm me except for the last time when he got arrested, he sprained my fingers. But for me, the emotional and psychological abuse was way worse. And that’s what took me forever to wrap my head around. And that’s what’s hard is that if we don’t recognize what’s happening and we go to get help from like a therapist or the church. They don’t recognize it, so they’re not gonna help us. Janice: Their church is not understanding, just like victims. We don’t understand the dynamic, so how can we expect them to understand? How to deal with angry husband: Quoting scripture and praying doesn’t make someone righteous Anne: Yeah. Church is especially problematic when it comes to abusers because they go to church and they read their scriptures and they pray and they know how to act like a God-fearing man, you know? And so you can’t wrap your head around that. They’re intentionally lying and manipulating you, and neither can the people at church, but just because they can quote scripture and pray and they sound righteous. If they are lying, if they’re using inappropriate media, if they’re having affairs, if they’re screaming at their family all the time, if they’re like throwing their weight around because they’re selfish. ‘Cause they don’t wanna have to cook dinner, they don’t want a dirty toilet. They’re not righteous, no matter how many scriptures they can quote. They should be studying scriptures on betrayal. Janice: Yeah, and they know that. Jesus talked about wolves among sheep, right? So I think that they know that and they will actually use the church for their own gain. I mean, Paul talks about it in his epistles. Anne: You and I both have physical abuse as part of our story, and with mine it was extremely minimal. I’m not trying to minimize his abuse. I’m just saying like one time he pushed me into the bed, but it didn’t hurt me. It was just scary. And then there was all the punching walls and physical intimidation, which is also physical abuse. I just didn’t see it as that at the time, I could tell that he was getting really mad because he wanted me to back off and I wouldn’t back off. Emotional abuse is dangerous, how to deal with angry husband? Anne: I would just keep going and I thought like maybe he’ll punch me and then at least I’d have a bruise. I know a lot of women who think that, ‘ cause without the physical violence, you’re still being severely abused. It’s just so much harder to figure out. How to deal with angry husband? Janice: I would much rather he hit me. To me, the emotional abuse can be so much worse than physical, depending on the type of physical abuse. Anne: Well, yeah, ’cause it’s really clear if someone punches you in the face. But the manipulation and the gaslighting, like impossible to figure out sometimes. And that’s not our fault. It’s his fault. ‘Cause he is like literally hiding stuff. Also, there are many stories, and I’ve talked about them on the podcast like Susan Powell and Leah Moses, Michael Haight, and the dentist from Colorado. I’ve done episodes about the warning signs your husband might kill you. They were not physically abusive and then they killed their family members suddenly. It’s not like they had a history of physical abuse before they committed murder, but they did have a history of emotional and psychological abuse. Janice: Yes, that’s the thing . I’ve got a friend whose husband was just emotionally abusive, just emotionally abusive for years. She left and went to her parents’ house, so he stormed in and killed her parents and left her for dead. Anne: That is awful. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. Oh yeah. I mean, that’s the worst case scenario. And not making light of that at all, but like it’s also the worst case scenario to be continually emotionally and psychologically abused. If you obey the commandments you should be blessed Anne: There’s no silver lining to abuse, and that’s why it’s so traumatizing. It’s traumatizing, just that the person you trusted with your life betrayed you. How to deal with angry husband? Janice: Abuse in and of itself is a huge betrayal of the bond that we are supposed to have. It is our most intimate relationship, and so there’s nothing like that. It’s such a deep wound. One day I’m saying, Lord, nobody knows what’s this feels like. Nobody understands what I’m going through right now. And it felt like the Holy Spirit dropped all over me and I could feel Jesus saying, I know. I know what it’s like to be betrayed by somebody I love. I know what it’s like to have somebody that I trusted turn on me. He was betrayed. So we have a God who understands when we are experiencing betrayal trauma. People, they don’t appreciate us. They see us more as objects and possessions than partners, and so it’s just a really difficult thing to deal with. I still had a lot of faith, but I also really questioned God’s goodness. If he’s good, why is he allowing this to happen to me? Anne: Yeah, especially if you followed the council of your church and you were doing what you thought Jesus wanted you to do. If you obey the commandments, you’re supposed to be blessed. It’s really hard to feel any blessings when there’s an abusive man standing between you and the blessings that God wants to give you. In terms of the church, like Jesus said, that if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery. And so here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view pornography use as abusive. how to deal with angry husband: Abusers have mindsets of entitlement Anne: And I’m coming out with a book soon that talks all about that. In addition to all the other reasons why lying and betrayal is a domestic abuse issue, and a lot of people disagree with me, they don’t think that pornography use, or lying about pornography use, or an affair is emotional and psychological abuse. But I’m like, you’re just not educated about emotional and psychological abuse, and I wasn’t either. So … Janice: Definitely they go hand in hand. Because the heart behind domestic abuse is basically objectifying as possessions. And that is exactly what pornography does. It’s looking at women as objects. I mean, pornography changes and rewires the brain and the way that men can have intimacy with women . Abusers have mindsets loaded with entitlement, pornography is also an entitlement issue. Like I can look at anything I want to any time. There are no rules for me when it comes to this department. It is definitely the same mindset that you see. Anne: Yeah, which to me means that if you are in a relationship with an active pornography user, you are in a relationship with an abuser. I say this all the time: Drug addicts abuse drugs. Alcoholics abuse alcohol. Sex addicts abuse people. So people are the thing that they abuse. I’m just so frustrated with like therapists or clergy because they say the solution to addiction is connection and they’re asking a victim of abuse to support her abuser, and that is unethical on all sorts of levels. I also don’t think it’s doing the abuser any favors. Like I don’t think he’s actually gonna get help with that approach. He’s choosing his behavior Anne: It took us a long time to wrap our heads around the fact that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. What would you share with women who were in the situation that we were in at one point? Janice: Well, you remember I talked about going into this program to learn how to deal with angry husband and I told the guy who was facilitating our week long intensive, I said, he just loses it. He can’t control his anger. He just flips out and he starts breaking things. And he goes, well, wait a minute. So when he is breaking things, who stuff does he break? Does he break your stuff only or his stuff and everybody’s stuff. And I said, well, it’s mostly just my stuff. Then he says, does he flip out on people at work like that? And I said, no, not really. He said, well, then that tells me that he’s got control over this. He’s choosing this behavior. A lot of times the truth is ugly. We have to admit that ugly truth before we can embrace beautiful truth. And the truth is that he uses kindness to manipulate. It’s not that he’s losing control at all. It’s that he’s using, whether it be anger or kindness, he’s using both to control. And that was a painful eye-opener to me. It was a very needed one for me to finally move towards healing. Anne: Yeah, that was a big one for me too. Well, Janice thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing your story and your thoughts. Janice: Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. Attributing his good traits to me Anne: Cameron, go ahead. Cameron: So I got married really young and I had no idea hes love bombing me. It felt flattering. He was saying all the sweet things, and he talked trash about every woman he dated before me, how disgusting or nasty his exes were. And part of me felt special. Like, wow, he thinks I’m different. One morning over breakfast, he was like, I think I need a break. But like the night before he told me he wanted to marry me, I was devastated. And then a week later, he shows back up saying, I made a huge mistake. And the relief, I mean, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything more intoxicating than the relief that follows emotional torture. I took it as a sign that he was the one. He’d say things like, I stopped looking at inappropriate media because of you. I’m closer to my family because of you. I’m doing better in school because of you. He attributed all his good traits to me. Anne: I’m so glad you brought that up, because then when he doesn’t do well in school or he starts looking at pornography again, then he blames you because you weren’t helping him be a better person anymore. How to deal with angry husband? Cameron: Yeah, he was just setting me up to blame me for not doing that stuff later. how to deal with angry husband: His Little abusive accidents? Anne: Before you got on to interview, you were telling me about like the covert physical abuse. Like he would never punch you in the face, but he’d sort of like pretend like he couldn’t see you and step on your foot and stuff like that. Can you talk about that? Cameron: The whole time there were these little accidents, opening a door when I was standing too close, so it hit me. Accidentally tripping me. I was like, wow. He’s super strong and big and he just didn’t see me there. Anne: Yeah. It’s like a threat. Cameron: Totally, his anger was always looming over me. I never knew when he was gonna lose it or how to deal with angry husband. Anne: Yeah. I experienced that as well. My, um, ex punched a wall a couple times and then that hole in the wall, like it just sat there and every time I saw it I thought, wow, he’s capable of that. Cameron: I totally know what you mean. Anne: . Like he could destroy stuff, but he never destroyed anything that he cared about. Cameron: He told me I just lost control, but he didn’t hit his beloved TV. And I’d think, okay, but if you really lost control, wouldn’t you have hit me? So clearly you have control. Anne: If I lost it, is there excuse? That’s a serious threat. That’s like even worse because he could really hurt somebody if he loses control and punches stuff. I don’t think they realize that it actually makes them look worse if they say they lost it. His anger is out of control Cameron: I know he might like rip one of our pet’s heads off or something. Anyway, one 4th of July, we were driving to his brother’s lake house and he goes, my parents emotionally abused me. I need you with me at all times while we’re there. So I tried to stay near him, but of course there’s all the kids running around and I’d come and go and check in. But at one point, one of the kids needed my help in the garage. He found me, got mad and punched a hole in his brother’s garage wall. I mean, crazy town. His brother’s all furious and I’m so embarrassed I’m like, it was my fault. I made him mad. His brother shrugged, like, whatever. My husband apologized and said he’d fix it. Later my mother-in-law asked where he was and I said, he’s in the garage fixing the hole. And I remember thinking, why is no one asking? What the heck is wrong with him? And it wasn’t just them. I reached out to our pastor, my family, I said, I mean, “Sure his pornography is a problem, but his anger is out of control.” And everybody was like, be a better wife, have more sex, be patient, use I statements, read The Power of a Praying Wife, avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Anne: I also tried to avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse, like trying not to stonewall, trying not to criticize what he is doing, you’re supposed to tell him your feelings, but you can’t tell him your feelings. So like if you say something, you’re crazy and then if you don’t say something, you’re crazy. How to deal with angry husband? A whole unfit mother campaign Anne: Like if I go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. If I don’t go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. How to deal with angry husband? Cameron: Yes, that! How can it not be overwhelming when they tell you, you have to be absolutely perfect so he can like be nice. And I did everything they told me. And because he was so charming in public, so helpful and humble and worship-team perfect. No one believed me. He’s telling everyone I was lazy, dependent, a whole unfit mother campaign. Telling people I partied every weekend. Left him with the kids. Anne: They told me, “You’re trying to ruin your family.” Did they use that one on you? Cameron: I didn’t hear that one, but the one I heard over and over and over was, “She doesn’t realize how good she has it.” Then there was the sexual coercion, which I had no idea what that was until I found BTR. If I wasn’t in the mood. Mostly because he’d yelled at me like 10 minutes before, he’d sulk, ignore me, punish me with silence. I realized he only loved me when I gave him exactly what he wanted, and I didn’t wanna poke the bear, didn’t want the sulking or the anger or any more holes in the wall. And anytime I brought up help, he’d say, I’m gonna change. I’ll find a program next week. But the minute I was like, when? He’d explode. Then came the counselors. Ooh, the counselors one told him I was controlling. Another one said his needs weren’t met, that he should demand more from me. That same one told me my husband was just frustrated because of my anxiety. How to deal with angry husband: He’s an addict because of low self-esteem Cameron: Then my husband starts seeing this revered CSAT ’cause he now has a sex addiction. And that guy is like, he’s an addict because of his low self-esteem. Anne: The sexual addiction thing is so problematic. It’s not that pornography isn’t addictive and it is not that he is not a pornography addict. But in relation to you, he’s emotionally abusive. How to deal with angry husband? His addiction isn’t your problem, his abuse is your problem. But when his addiction comes into the mix, people are like, oh, he’s willing to be vulnerable. He is willing to talk about his addiction. He is willing to go to a treatment program, so things are gonna get better. After I’ve interviewed so many women, I found that is like rarely the case. Because she’s not experiencing his addiction. So as I’m listening to your story, I’m like bracing myself. Cameron: I know, right? So my husband comes home like, this isn’t about you. It’s about me loving myself. And I’m sitting there thinking, okay, so you’re gonna go on a three hour beach run every day while I raise our seven kids alone. I thought his family would care, nope. Within days of me asking them for support, I became the villain. I was crazy. I had borderline personality disorder. They actually told me, we know he has a temper, but you married him. You knew, so that’s on you. Anne: So wait. Their contention was that you consented to emotional abuse because you married him, because that’s not the thing. Cameron: Right. Totally. Focusing on emotional safety Cameron: And during that week, I prayed harder than I’ve ever prayed in my life. Sat at my computer and I typed in everything I was feeling. And one of your podcasts popped up. That’s how I found BTR. Anne: That’s amazing. How to deal with angry husband? I’ve heard that from so many women who were like praying and they sat down on their computer and they found BTR. I am so grateful that you found us. Our group sessions, and the workshop focus on your emotional safety only. That’s it. Cameron: Yeah. It’s so different than any other type of therapy or program and it’s so much better. It actually makes sense. After I found you everything shifted. I started learning your strategies in the workshop and how to use boundaries that actually worked. Unlike that dumb CSAT that had me set the stupidest boundaries. From BTR, I learned that nothing he did was because he felt ashamed or had low self-esteem. It was because he chose abuse. I started doing the meditations in your workshop. They helped a ton. I went to like six group sessions a week. I could finally think again. And I could feel my own feelings instead of the ones he assigned to me. So grateful for btr Cameron: I started to trust myself. Meanwhile, he’s losing weight, and everyone is suddenly so worried about him. Women coming up to me like, he looks so thin. Are you guys okay? Our kids are falling apart, and no one even asks them how they’re doing. And the church board completely bought into all his lies. They were like, why won’t you let him come home? Can’t you talk to him differently? Don’t say things that make him mad. It was awful. Truly awful. I would’ve never made it through without the workshop and the BTR community, the coaches, the podcast, everything. I don’t know what I would’ve done without BTR. I’m so grateful. Anne: Yeah, that’s why I created BTR, because when I went through it, I couldn’t find help. I had the same experience that you did, like going to tons of therapists that couldn’t help. trying to find out how to deal with angry husband. Thank you so much, Cameron, for sharing your story today.

After the discovery of betrayal, life may feel overwhelming. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal from interviewing four women who experienced betrayal in their marriage. Recovery After Betrayal: Here’s What No One Tells You Name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse. Emotional safety first. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else. Drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and you didn’t cause it. Observe, since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words. Your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies. Anger can help you. Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety. Grief comes in waves. There’s so much grief involved with betrayal, and it’s really important to be with people who understand. Quick FAQ on Recovery After Betrayal How long does recovery after betrayal take?Longer than you want, shorter than you fear. It’s nonlinear; measure by stability and peace, not calendar dates. Do I have to leave to start healing?No, you can start with simple emotional safety strategies and see what the next day brings. To learn more about emotional safety strategies after betrayal, enroll in The Living Free Workshop. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. It has a lot of emotional abuse examples. What if therapy made things worse?You’re not alone. That’s why we have our daily, online Group Sessions. You deserve emotionally safe support to recover from betrayal. Transcript: Recovery After Betrayal Anne: After interviewing four betrayed wives. Here’s what I learned about recovery after betrayal. Number one, name it. It’s important to name betrayal as domestic abuse Number two, emotional safety first,. It’s important to put your emotional safety above anything else and take steps to learn how to heal from emotional abuse. Three, drop the shame. His betrayal and his lies have nothing to do with you, and nothing you did or didn’t do was the cause of cheating. Number four, observe. Since the betrayal couldn’t have happened without all his lies, it’s important to watch his behavior and make sure it matches his words. Number five, your body knows. Many women live with insomnia, digestive issues, chest tightness, and anxiety long before they understand that betrayal is happening. It’s important to listen to our bodies. Six, anger can help you. You’ll likely go through stages of anger after infidelity. Anger can power your next steps toward emotional safety. And number seven, grief comes in waves. With betrayal, there’s so much grief involved, and it’s really important to be with people who understand. Before I get to their interviews, I want to go back in time. When I went through this, I felt overwhelmed. I didn’t know what to do, and I didn’t know where to turn. Doing my dishes seemed impossible as a single mom. It seemed completely overwhelming. A place like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this place I founded didn’t exist. I didn’t wanna get divorced, and so I went to 12-Step. My 12-Step sponsor told me my character defects were the real problem. She said that if God removed those defects from me, I would have my best chance of saving my family.e character defects from me, that was my best chance of saving my family. Going back in time Anne: During that time of recovery after betrayal, I was crying a lot. And I just found this recording of my son, who pulled out a vacuum and like had the vacuum handle as the microphone. Watching that video took me back to that place, although I’m not gonna show you the video. Here’s the audio recording of that. 6 Year Old Son: When you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry whenever you’re feeling sad. It’s okay to cry, it’s okay to cry. If someone’s mean to you… 3 Year Old Son: Telling me to 6 Year Old Son: …cry. 3 Year Old Son: Ends up crying again 6 Year Old Son: Stop you’re interrupting it. 3 Year Old Son: No I’m not. 6 Year Old Son: Yes you are. 3 Year Old Son: No I’m not. 6 Year Old Son: And if you are a little baby. You can still cry. If you’re really, really old, you still can cry. If you’re really, really, really young, you still can cry. Yay! I love you Mom. Anne: He was so brave and so strong now he’s over six feet tall. And he is doing really well. And he is such a good person. I love my children, they are so close to me. I don’t think I would’ve ever had the relationship I have with them if my ex-husband had stayed in our home. So I’m reaching out across the void to you. And if you are overwhelmed, let me sit here in this overwhelm with you. If you have no idea how you’re going to pay the bills, if every option seems terrible. I’ve been there. Trying To Survive during recovery after betrayal Anne: I felt like I couldn’t even say anything during recovery after betrayal. Speaking the truth was getting me in trouble, and I didn’t know how to do anything else. There was no other option for me. It was maddening. After a year of 12-Step, I started realizing it wasn’t addiction. My husband was abusive. And then I started podcasting and interviewing women who listened and wanted to share their stories too. I meet women every day who are in that place. Where they don’t know what will happen. They’re trying to survive the best way they can. I’ve interviewed you in those moments, and I’ve also interviewed you after the fact. You know, years later when you’re feeling better. So today I have four women from our community who will share their stories: Charlotte, Luna, Rhonda, and Cassandra, so they know because they’ve been part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I developed the Living Free strategies, and I teach them now. Our team teaches women’s strategies in our Group Sessions. We also have The Living Free Workshop, and they’ve benefited. So many other women have benefited from the support they receive here at BTR, so they’re gonna share experiences today. Charlotte, let’s start with you. Charlotte: Anne, I’m so sorry. I heard your podcast, but to hear your story today, my heart just breaks. Prior to our engagement and subsequent marriage, he disclosed to me that in his teens and twenties he had struggled with pornography and compulsive sexual behaviors. I was young and naive Charlotte: And I was young and naive, so I said, well, that’s fine. It’s in the past. And for the first year he was “sober”, if you will. I had no idea. But during our second year of marriage, I felt a disconnection during recovery after betrayal. I remember thinking, I don’t believe what you’re saying. You’re saying one thing, but I’m feeling something different. So I think what I picked up on was there was a real disconnect emotionally. . He was saying all the right things, but I didn’t feel it in my gut. And it was shortly after a wedding anniversary. I caught him in a lie, and things started to unravel. Three weeks later, I found out the truth. I felt devastated. I was angry. It was brutal. I would hear the outright lies, it doesn’t make sense to me. I think gaslighting is absolutely abusive. What was crazy making for me was on one hand here was this respectable, responsible man that I admired, respected, trusted. My husband is a trained therapist, and at the time he worked in clinical mental health. On the other hand, here is this hidden life that I didn’t know about. At that point, the gaslighting and the betrayal trauma just increased exponentially, the longer the woman is subject to that man living a lie. The third year of our marriage, I caught him in another lie. And the shame, because even though we as women haven’t done anything shameful. So many of us feel ashamed of what our husbands have done. And I can’t make a decision right now. So then I’d watch and wait and see what happens. Is he angry, defensive, blaming? Is he evasive? He lied to everybody about whAT HAPPENED Anne: Yeah, I was in that boat too with me, the psychological abuse was so extreme. There was literally not one interaction that I had with him where he didn’t gaslight or blame me. But I didn’t want to get divorced during recovery after betrayal. So I waited and I watched, and it was really disturbing to watch his decisions. He shocked me and shut down our bank account. He lied to everybody about what happened. Every single choice he made was like a nightmare, and in fact, he’s still lying about what happened years later. He’s an attorney, and back then he became a mediator too. When I found out, I was just devastated. I thought he was full-blown gone. Charlotte: The gaslighting and the blaming are so emotionally and psychologically damaging. That the person that you’ve trusted that’s supposed to have your back is actually the one that’s tuned against you in such a vicious way. So sorry. Anne: Ditto, Charlotte, I’m so sorry about everything you’ve been through. It’s so difficult. Knowing what you know now, if you could talk to your younger self, what would you tell her? Charlotte: Well, you know, I would tell her it’s not her fault. I think I would reiterate that to my young self. You know it’s not your fault. Whether it’s pornography use or other acting out. It’s not my fault that I trusted, it’s not our fault if they’re compulsive liars, deceive us and gaslight us. Anne: Yeah, thanks Charlotte for sharing today. We love having you in our community. Charlotte: Absolutely I’m so grateful for BTR. I can’t tell you how grateful I am, thank you. Discovering Husband’s so-called addiction Anne: All right, Luna, your turn. Thanks for sharing today. Why don’t you start with discovering your husband’s so-called addiction. Luna: So like the slowest, most drawn out discovery story you’ve ever heard. We were married. I had a feeling really early, like even on my honeymoon, something’s not quite right. But at the same time, just thinking, “Oh it’s not a big deal. I really don’t know what husbands are like. This is my first experience.” I just dismissed those feelings. I was pregnant with our first son. It happened to be the same year that our house was wired for the internet, and I was big, tired, and struggling with my body image. And then my husband was in the office at home, and I remember thinking “What’s happening in there?” But at the same time, just thinking, “Whatever he wants to do in there, I don’t care.” And told myself that for oh, another three years, kind of embarrassing to go through the slow discovery. Anne: Oh, don’t feel bad. Everyone goes through that period where they don’t know what to do. Where they’re trying to figure it out. I sure did. It’s totally normal. That’s why it’s awesome that you’re part of our community, so you can feel like you’re not alone, right? Luna: Definitely, so then our son was born, and I remember being awake to feed him in the night. I noticed the light was on in the home office, and I just thought, “Oh wow, my husband’s awake too.” And I walked right over and opened the door. But like instantly felt this horrible flood of emotion. It felt so tangible, and I saw pornography on the computer screen, so now this thing is right in front of my eyes. Recovery after betrayal: I COULDN’T GO THERE Luna: But I shut the door and walked away. There was an awareness on his part that I had seen what happened, but my mom was in town. And she was with us for another week. Like I just couldn’t, I couldn’t go there. Anne: Mm-hmm Luna: And then I really didn’t go there, just going through the motions and coping, and existing and busy life. It just kind of dragged on. Anne: Did you have a religious background or ethical background that caused you to think that pornography in and of itself was wrong? Or was just an icky feeling from finding that he was viewing pornography? Luna: Definitely, the spiritual upbringing was the first thing that made me feel uncomfortable about pornography. That feeling was like just a confirmation of what I believed. Anne: So what happened like years after not talking about it? Luna: Well. I like to say, “I got a gift.” It wasn’t in a pretty package with a matching bow, but it was a gift to me. And that’s the gift of anger. I ended up being a very angry woman, lived with this constant low level irritation and blow-up over little stupid things. And thinking like, “This anger scares me.” I was okay being sad. And I was okay being lonely and being depressed, but the anger terrified me. Feeling the effects of trauma Luna: I had chest pain, I had insomnia, I had anxiety especially at night. I would lay in bed at night, and just feel like my heart is going to fly out of my chest, and feel so anxious about the reality of my life that I had coped with for so many years. And so it was working through owning the reality of my life, where now suddenly I began to feel the effects of that trauma. It was really traumatic to pull my proverbial ostrich head out of the sand. It was the shock. I remember thinking, Can we go back, because dealing with what is actually happening in my life felt worse. It really did for a while. Anne: Yeah, I felt the same way during recovery after betrayal. I felt the most trauma after I recognized that what I had experienced wasn’t addiction, but abuse. I mean, I had been experiencing his emotional and psychological abuse for seven years. But because I thought it was addiction, I didn’t process what I was going through. And then after we separated and I started to see what it really was, the trauma just kept coming in waves and waves. And it was intense for a long time. Luna: I was a little bit offended with God that this was my story. I didn’t deserve it. I never asked for this to be in my story, and here I was, and how was that okay with him? So I was on the outs with God for trauma as well. I remember thinking like, “If I stay, then at least I can keep an eye on him. And I can sort of be there to protect my boys.” Recovery after betrayal: I didn’t know where else to go Luna: That sort of became, “If I stay, then I can make sure he’s moving forward and my kids don’t end up growing up with a pornography addict for a father.” Because you know whether our marriage makes it, that was a big question. I thought, well if I stay, I can make sure he’s doing the work and moving forward, and then that’ll make him a better father for my boys. And so I’m staying to keep an eye on him. Not the best reason, of course, to stay in a little while. The bottom line for me is I didn’t know where else to go. It really was the catalyst that forced my hand. And made me say, “I need help. I have to get help. Something has to change inside of me, I can’t live like this.” And that’s when I found you. One of the things I love about your stuff is it’s small bite-sized serving of hope. A couple of things to take action on or to reflect on. Anne: Absolutely, yeah, I created it in bite-sized pieces because when I went through recovery after betrayal, I couldn’t really process information. I couldn’t read, I was so overwhelmed. I just needed to take one tiny step at a time. Luna: Exactly, in the middle of the trauma, like I couldn’t even read two pages. You give women something that they could chew, and they could swallow, and it would just carry them through one day. Maybe help them take one step, and we just need something to hold onto. Anne: So that’s why I decided to do a podcast. Hearing other women’s stories helps us process what we’re going through. There’s a life beyond pain and trauma Anne: The podcast is just one episode at a time. You can listen while doing laundry. You can listen while vacuuming. With Living Free, you just do a tiny bit at a time if you want. The total runtime is like two hours 50 minutes, so you can do it all at once or a little bit at a time, however it works for you. Luna: I love that it’s so manageable for women in trauma. With your stuff, there is a way for every woman to move forward. It’s not about whether your relationship is restored. But knowing there is peace available, and regardless of what ends up happening in your marriage, there’s a way for you to move forward. There’s a life for you beyond this pain and trauma that you’re dealing with right now. Anne: Yeah, and you’ll have women who will walk through it with you during recovery after betrayal. Luna: Exactly, you know, however your story ends, there is hope. The pain I experienced was so difficult and so altering. But at the same time, I felt like I found a way through. I knew I had to share it. Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing it. You sharing your story will help other women, so thank you Luna.   We don’t know which way is up or where to turn Anne: Okay, Rhonda, you’re up next. Would you mind sharing what helped you heal from betrayal trauma? Rhonda: It’s really hard Anne, because a big part of trauma and abuse is the chaos inside of ourselves. We don’t know which way is up or even where to turn. Coming to a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is a great place to go, because I immediately feel understood. There’s not a whole lot of explanation that has to happen. When you come to BTR, you see a lot of nodding of heads. Anne: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of head nodding and heart emojis going up in group sessions for sure. Yeah, you know, when I went through recovery after betrayal, I really wanted a quick solution. I wanted my family to be like put back together again really fast. Many women feel guilty or pressure to have some sort of timeline for healing. How have you felt about that as you attended Group Sessions? Rhonda: One of the things I love about BTR is that BTR coaches use methods that have been tried, that work for everybody. But another thing I love about BTR is that every individual is different. Timing is different. And so a lot of freedom to figure out really what is best for me just being guided by the coach. That’s unique to each situation, but it’s not fast for anybody. The BTR coaches, it’s a synergistic group. It’s a bunch of ladies who come from all different situations who really understand, but approach healing from a different perspective. Recovery after betrayal: Everything is turned upside down Rhonda: I can get the little gems from each of the coaches. And when I could put a name to what’s going on, abuse, once you’ve labeled it and recognized it, all those actions they land on him, not on you. Anne: Yeah, it helps know what you’re actually healing from when you’re in recovery after betrayal, like you said, abuse. Yeah. So for women listening who are hesitant to call it abuse, they’re maybe thinking he’s got like childhood trauma or maybe an addiction. Maybe they’re looking for a men’s program, like to get their husband into. Do you have any thoughts for them? Rhonda: You may label it as, you know, just a little problem that he has, something that he’s trying to overcome. But we can’t get rid of the effects. Everything is turned upside down and chaotic, because that’s what abusers do to us. It’s so scary to label it correctly, because of what the future might bring. You get to decide, and you get to decide again tomorrow and the next day. And the next day, your path will lead you. You don’t have to be afraid of your path. If you don’t want to get divorced, you don’t have to get divorced. If you don’t want to be separated, you don’t have to be separated. I love doing the BTR Meditations. The different topics and guided meditations help me let go of all the heavy things and focus on peace and calm. I do the meditations, because sometimes we can’t get our minds and bodies to do what we know we need to do. Meditation really helps with that. And meditations allow our minds and hearts to start to release some of the pain. Meditation helped Anne: Oh, that is so great to hear. At some point in my recovery, meditation was like the only thing that helped, which is why I wanted to include it in the Living Free Workshop. I’m so glad you’re finding those meditations helpful. If you’re listening and you’re like, where are these meditations? You can go to btr.org/livingfree and find the meditations inside the Living Free Workshop. But they provide immediate peace when you can’t sleep or need peace right away. I mean, it’s really good to feel that peace, especially when we didn’t do anything wrong and you feel terrible. But we’re always doing the best we can. We’ve been doing the best we can the entire time. Rhonda: I love that. I love that. We’re always doing the best that we can. We say, “Oh, I was such an idiot then.” No, no, I was not such an idiot. I knew my body had stored what my mind and heart couldn’t process. And sometimes the miracle is just recognition. But sometimes the miracle is physical healing. Anne: Yeah, I have talked to so many women who had like autoimmune disorders or physical problems. And once they separated themselves from emotional and psychological abuse, their symptoms just cleared up immediately, which was an absolute miracle. So many women pray for a miracle, maybe a physical miracle of healing. This garden is a miracle Anne: We were gardening. And my son said to me, “Mom, this garden is a miracle. It’s so beautiful,” and he said, “Do you know what makes the miracle happen?” And I was like, “What?” This is the same son that you heard earlier on my recording. He said, “We do these little actions of planting these little seeds and watering, then we hope it will grow and fruit something good. And then the miracle occurs.” And I was like, ” Wow, you are so wise.” When I thought about the Living Free Strategies, I thought about the Israelites. There was a miracle that they could leave, but they actually had to like pack up their bags and physically walk out. God didn’t just like, you know, teleport them to the promised land. They had a lot of work they had to do to get there, which was miserable. But eventually they did get to the promised land. So as we’re thinking about miracles, always remember the planting of the seed or that we need to pick up our bags or whatever it is that we need to do, even though it’s not our fault, to receive the miracle into our lives. I think the most important thing is to focus on, not the outcome, but a state of being. Like we want the miracle to be emotional safety, not necessarily saving our marriage or getting divorced. Then we take steps toward emotional safety, and we can see the miracle occur in our lives. And we’re not tied to any outcome. We hope for emotional safety for you and your children. recovery after betrayal: Feeling Hope for my life again Rhonda: Anne, you pointed out that if we put our work towards a state of being rather than a specific outcome, God’s will grant that for us as we work towards it. And that’s where talking with people who are safe, like BTR coaches. That’s a huge miracle. Anne: I’m so happy to hear you say that I hear so many women who come to BTR groups, like it’s so hopeful. I feel hope for my life again. Yeah, and that’s why I appreciate so many of you writing a five-star review Apple podcast for this podcast, or doing an review on Spotify, or reviewing one of my books on Amazon. Because as you help get the word out, other women can feel this hope too. Because all of us have felt that overwhelm and just absolute sadness during recovery after betrayal. And then when women find BTR through that. They tell me over and over again, I just wish I had found it sooner. I wish I had known sooner. So thank you to those who help me get the word out, so that we can help other women find it as soon as possible, so that they can have this information. And that being said, I always tell women, “You found BTR at just the right time for you.” Like, let’s trust in the timing of the universe. It brought you, Rhonda, to us right at this time. Thank you so much for sharing today. Rhonda: Thank you Anne, it’s a pleasure to be with you and I love BTR. Survival of betrayal by two different men Anne: Thank you. All right Cassandra, it’s your turn now, go ahead. Cassandra: Yes, I am a survivor of betrayal, betrayed by two different men. But the emotional infidelity of one that I was engaged to at the time was terribly wounding for me. I didn’t understand what was wrong, really. We went to two different couples therapists to try to get help for what I now call emotional domestic violence through his infidelity, and it was unclear if it was a physical infidelity. It was absolutely clear it was at least an emotional infidelity. I was just called too sensitive or overactive, and neither therapist could see it. But at the time, I was too dependent on him to leave. I just couldn’t imagine life without him. And eventually he broke up with me. Which was a great gift he gave me at that time. And then another man’s sexual infidelity, which was incredibly painful, though thankfully by that time I was in a different place. I was more independent on my own, so I could end the relationship. Anne: With your experience with the therapists who weren’t able to identify the abuse in the betrayal, did you feel betrayed by them as well? Cassandra: I felt angry. I felt enraged, but because they were in an expert position and I was struggling, I didn’t know for sure. I mean, I guess I can look back and say that they tried the best they could, but I think that healing from betrayal needs to be looked at from a domestic violence lens. Support groups have been powerful Cassandra: Now, looking back, I think they lacked insight. They lacked training, they lacked perspective. It certainly was therapy induced trauma. So gaslighting, it felt traumatic at the time, and yeah, it felt like a betrayal. Anne: As you know from group sessions, so many women have that experience of the therapist not recognizing this as domestic abuse during recovery after betrayal, which is what it is, yeah. Cassandra: Yeah, in group, we shared stories about how many therapists had blown us off. I think the most was six. Group is where we’re feeling safe, so we can define what fits and what doesn’t, to know where to get ready. Group is very helpful to talk about what it’s like to be betrayed and unhook the blame of self that the addict, the person doing the betraying, can place on us or the therapist who doesn’t understand, or the judgmental culture. So definitely support groups have been really powerful. I think part of the problem is we don’t talk about it. So to hear women talk about things they did at the encouragement or coercion of their sexually addicted husband that made her feel uncomfortable, regretful, or ashamed. Like looking at pornography with her husband. She didn’t want to, but she did it because he was so insistent. Anne: Yeah, what you’re describing is sexual coercion. It can be overwhelming Anne: So in group or individual sessions, women are really lucky at BTR to have coaches who understand. Our team understands to relieve us all from the guilt of being coerced when we didn’t understand what was happening during recovery after betrayal. Cassandra: Yeah, I hear that a lot. We talk a lot about what the sex addict does, and all that can also evoke great shame. I can’t believe he did that. I can’t believe he did that to me, we feel so much guilt and shame. Sex addicts can be relentless, and it can be threatening, or blackmail, or chronic manipulation, and it can be overwhelming. And I think that’s one thing that is missed in the conversations of so-called, you know, pornography being an okay way to explore sexuality, and there’s no harm caused by it. For me personally, I only worry about the labels as much as they help me. Part of healing from Betrayal trauma is trying to get our stories out there. Anne: Thank you so much.

If you’ve discovered your husband has been lying to you and cheating and you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on, the best place to start is to get clear about what’s really happening. Realizing that your husband isn’t the man you thought he was is a devastating blow to your sense of reality and your emotional safety. The betrayal trauma is real and naming it is an important step in your recovery. If you need help getting started, we’re here to support your healing with Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions. This episode follows Shelly’s StoryPart 1: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? Part 2: How To Recover After Being Cheated On (THIS EPISODE) 7 Things Every Woman Should Know About How to Recover After Being Cheated On Are you trying to recover after your husband cheated on you? If he cheats on you, his lies, secrecy and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality. Here are seven things women need to know about this. 1. Recovery begins with identification. Betrayal trauma is what you’re experiencing. Naming it helps connect the dots between what happened and how it affected you. 2. Intimate lies are domestic abuse. The harm doesn’t start once you find out about his cheating. It begins when he starts deceiving you. Recovery begins with accepting this truth. 3. Your body will tell you the truth. Many women experiencing betrayal trauma have physical symptoms like insomnia, stomach issues, chronic pain. Your body always resists, even if your mind doesn’t quite understand what’s happening. 4. Recovery isn’t about him even though the need to recover is entirely about him. Recovery takes knowing how to focus on our own emotional safety.  Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out if you are a victim. 5. Self-compassion is a turning point. Recovery means treating yourself like you would treat a friend. 6. Ignore bad advice. People might tell you to just move on or don’t give away your power. That’s not helpful if you’re trying to heal from this type of trauma. 7. The right support makes recovery from this type of trauma possible. It is important to find a support group where women understand what you’re going through because they’ve been through it too. Transcript: How To Recover After Being Cheated On Anne: I have Shelly, a member of our community, back on today’s episode. I interviewed her six months ago. I asked her to come back and check in. And let me know how she’s doing now. Welcome back, Shelly. Shelly: So we’re at about a year and a half now since the initial D-Day and it’s still difficult, but we’re still together. We’re still working through things. I’ve had no more D-Days since the four or five months of D-Days I had. Nothing new has come to light. But it’s hard. That’s sort of where I am at the moment. Anne: Will you talk about any epiphanies that you’ve had as you’ve been learning how to recover after being cheated on. Shelly: There’s been a lot of deepening in my understanding of objectification, as a social issue, and the conditioning everywhere. Society subjects men and women to that conditioning. How human souls are made into objects and literally sold for the purpose of use in a sexual way. And it’s dark. Last time, I gave you a bit of a backstory. There’s a long line of betrayal trauma history in my life, being born into that. And for me, understanding my own power and choice has been freeing. Eighteen Months Into Healing: What Recovery After Being Cheated On Looks Like Anne: Like how did you see it before and how are you seeing it now? Shelly: So listening to our original podcast the emotions I felt. When I was going back, to when I was young, and I was a victim of abuse in my teens with a much older man. I felt quite powerless. Just listening to that, it felt powerless. Whereas when I fast forward to now. I can feel there’s a difference. Like, I have choice. I didn’t realize that I had choice then. Like I didn’t understand it. I wouldn’t say naive, because I wouldn’t understand because I was so young and being coerced in such a horrific way, that I didn’t see anything beyond that. Whereas now my adult self understands all this stuff. And actually, through everything I’ve listened to on your podcast and understanding that betrayal is abuse. I feel the foundation now that I didn’t have before, an understanding of what betrayal trauma is, where I’m standing in a place of power and knowing how to recover after being cheated on. I’m in a different space. I felt that, just listening through my own story in the podcast that we did before. Anne: For our listeners, we recorded this the same day her previous episode aired. So she listened to it and now we’re talking. It’s a different type of experience than talking with a coach, therapist or group session. Because you’re listening to yourself from the outside in a way that you wouldn’t normally. Can you talk about your experience as you listened to yourself share your story on the podcast. Listening to Yourself: A Surprising Step in How to Recover After Being Cheated On Anne: Do you feel like it enabled you to feel for yourself in a way that you hadn’t before? Shelly: I do actually, because I disconnected so much. I had a strong sense of dissociation before. And that has changed. I feel it is important, because that’s reconnecting to the self. Where the dissociation was before, it was like someone else’s life that I recounted or told a story about somebody else’s life or a different lifetime. It didn’t feel connected to me. So having that connection back and feeling those emotions is important. In being whole, and rebuilding myself, it was helpful. I felt really emotional. I felt the heartbreak for myself. And I have empathy for myself, which is a strange concept. I feel for myself, my own story. I was able to release it. Anne: I imagine it will take you a while to process hearing your own story. It’s not like you’re gonna have all the epiphanies all at once. It will happen over time. But I think it’s beneficial for women to hear themselves and recognize how human they are. If they heard someone else share the story, how much compassion they would feel for that person, and love and lack of judgment. Shelly: Exactly. Anne: It might be something they’ve never experienced for themselves before, partially due to all the abuse they experienced. The abuse in and of itself separates us from ourselves. That’s how abusers manipulate their victims. Abusers do not want us to process it in a way that we can feel or understand it. Why Seeing Things As They Really Are helps and shows how to recover After Being Cheated On Shelly: Yeah, they dis-empower you, so you haven’t got the power to step out of it, change it, or even see it. Having compassion for yourself and hearing as if you are listening to a friend is huge. I’ve always struggled with self-love. I completely understand why now, because it’s been throughout my entire life. Hearing that if I was sitting with a friend and told me my story, I would have nothing but love for her. Right now, I’m heavily processing stuff with my current partner, which has a huge impact on me every day. Things still trigger me. There are moments it feels overwhelmingly hard. Anne: In the past, you didn’t understand what was happening to you. But now that you have the information, you can talk to other women. You went to BTR group sessions. You can process it which makes a difference. Shelly: Yeah, that’s definitely part of it. I’m also aware of positive coping mechanisms that I’m doing. Anne: Once you’re aware, you can start looking at it more objectively in terms of not being manipulated like we were before. Shelly: Yeah. Anne: Which helps us make better decisions in the long run. It takes a minute to figure out how we feel and what we wanna do. We’re just a lot more capable of making decisions that are in our best interest when we have this type of information. It’s just impossible without it. Embracing the Hard Truth that Sets You Free: His Cheating Isn’t About You Shelly: Yeah, learning how to recover after being cheated on is like being in a dark room with a blindfold on and then suddenly walking out into the light and seeing everything for what it actually is. Anne: How has that felt? Being able to see things for what they really are? Shelly: It’s liberating. I’m glad that I see now, but it’s painful process. I wouldn’t change it. Anne: I think some women, and I was one of them, want to unsee it a little bit, ’cause it is so painful. But once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And so there isn’t anywhere to go but forward. Shelly: Yeah, I understand wishing to unsee it. I can totally get that, because it’s such a traumatic thing to go through. I’m glad I’m not living in the dark anymore. I’m glad I’m not living in an illusion of this perfect fairy-tale in my head. I would never want anyone to go through this. But I’m glad that I’m now living informed as to who I’m with and where I am. Anne: The Living Free Workshop intends to help women see the truth. Shelly: Yeah. Anne: It doesn’t give any instructions in terms of like pack a bag and move out. Nothing like that. It’s more safety principles and how to get enough space to observe. Shelly: Yes, I loved the group sessions. Feeling that connection with people, seeing the same faces, feeling familiar with the coach. Each coach had a different sort of energy and beauty about the way they held the space. I found that helpful. I remember in one of my shares talking about how this has affected me and my self perception, my physical self perception. Getting Beauty treatments to feel better physically Shelly: I basically started to starve myself. Because all the women he was looking at were all thinner than me. Some of them were younger and some were actually older than me. I had very low self-esteem anyway, but this completely smashed any esteem I had about myself. And in this one particular group, I shared that. Many of the women started to cry and could completely understand, completely resonated with what I was saying. I found that so devastatingly sad that this is one of the consequences of their behavior. Their choices impact the way we internalize, or think, we think it’s because of us. It all boils down to that belief, I’m not enough. Having that connection, not feeling alone, and not feeling like I’m the only one doing this. It was powerful, but equally heartbreaking. Actually across the world, this is something that is happening to women after experiencing something like that. Anne: I think it brings it home that it’s not about us. To see that so many women have been exploited in that way, manipulated in that way, is so heartbreaking to realize how systemic it is. Shelly: Yeah, my partner, I remember having a conversation with him. “I cannot understand how you could look into my eyes at the end of the day, knowing that you’d done that.” He said, “I just thought, what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her.” Keeping secrets is the root of the pain in between. The damage that’s caused in a relationship, not having transparency. Secrecy is Abuse: how to Recover after Being Cheated On Shelly: That as soon as you’re doing something that you know will hurt your partner, you’re already hurting them. Anne: Right. Shelly: Whether they know it or not. Anne: And just the absolute lack of understanding that not giving your partner a choice. Using deceit is abuse. It’s control, it’s harmful, and you’re already hurting her if you are not giving her a choice in her own life. Shelly: Exactly, I did not know who I was with. I had the image of who I thought he was. Who he was saying he was. I did not know the person I was with, and I didn’t have free choice in that. Anne: Exactly, and for any man to think that sounds okay is horrifying. I guess there could be women who feel this way, but I don’t know of any woman at BTR who would feel comfortable, thinking her husband didn’t know. Unless it was for her own safety, saving some money, as in classic domestic abuse escape strategies. Women in general who are victims of abuse, before they understand they are, would feel bad, thinking their husband didn’t know something he needed to know. I think that’s why it’s just so incomprehensible to us that somebody would’ve made these choices for us and completely disrespected us in this way. Shelly: It’s dishonoring someone’s soul that you’re professing to love. That is not love. It’s dishonoring me. Betraying me. There were lies about other things. There were lies about money. It’s not honoring the person you love. And I can’t consolidate those two things in my head, or in my heart and that was a part of learning how to recover after being cheated on. My mind is still on high alert Shelly: Because if I love someone, then I’m gonna honor them by not doing things that hurt them. I won’t do that. Anne: I’m so sorry about everything you’re going through. The time you’re in right now is so difficult, trying to sort out what to do next. And learn how to recover after being cheated on. Shelly: Yeah, I’m still on high alert a lot of the time, which is exhausting. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. And I’d rid myself of constant pain and fatigue, and lived my life in a happy space. So since all this came out, all the symptoms flared back up again. If anything else came to light, that would be it. I couldn’t physically do it or emotionally stay within the relationship. Because I have nothing more that I can possibly give beyond what I’ve already given, beyond what I’m giving now. I can’t just relax. Anne: That’s absolutely understandable. Shelly: It’s logical, isn’t it? If someone can spend so many years lying to you. There’s always a chance they’re going to do that again. I still am not in a place where I can say I fully trust him. My mind is still trying to protect me, questioning, why won’t my husband fight for our marriage? I’m still on high alert, and I don’t know however long it takes or what that’s gonna look like to heal. Anne: I’m interested in seeing what you think of Living Free, because the intent was to help women feel they don’t have to work so hard. ‘Cause I’m hearing that in your voice. This exhaustion, of the process of seeing if he’s gonna make the right decisions. The Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce women’s burden Anne: So the Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce that burden. And help women observe, so that the burden is all on him and not on us. Shelly: I definitely feel it. I’m definitely carrying it. Anne: So the strategy of Living Free is learning to give ourselves enough space. So that we can live our lives, be peaceful, happy and observe. It teaches how to recover after being cheated on. And not carry the weight of it. If you want to come back and share your feedback. Shelly: I very much would like to do that. Anne: I will tell you a little bit about it. So it doesn’t overwhelm you. The workbook comes with it. You can print it, I recommend women buy it on Amazon. I wanted to see the two page spread layout. Which you don’t get to see if you print it on your own printer. But anyway, the Living Free Workshop is 55 lessons. They’re very short videos. Most of them are three minutes, and the shortest one is 30 seconds. So it’s tiny three minute increments to process it. The longest video is six minutes long. There’s only one that’s that long. There’s a question underneath, and if you don’t wanna answer it, you can just push an X and push enter and go to the next thing. If you don’t wanna fill out the workbook, you don’t have to fill it out, but it is good to have it in front of you, so at least you can see what I’m talking about. Just having it in front of you helps. Meditations help regulate your nervous system and show how to recover after being cheated on Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. I set it up, so women have time to process how to recover after being cheated on in between each one. Especially with the self-esteem issues, to remove the manipulation and negative things that we’ve absorbed through their abuse and replace it with truth. Like, you’re beautiful, you’re capable. Right now might be a great time for the Meditations to regulate your nervous system to help you feel more peaceful and centered. That’s what the Meditations do to help women who, can’t stop thinking about it. So to help get all that out. I wrote them for myself. Because talking about stuff at some point wasn’t that helpful for me. So I wrote those meditations, so that I could get all the stuff out without having to talk about it. ‘Cause I talk about this all day long, every single day, and I have for 10 years. I’d say if you do the Meditations and then schedule the next interview, that way it can give you some time to think about, did it help? Shelly: Yeah, definitely. You need to get this stuff out. That’s important. But I also think there is a point in your post traumatic growth where you have to go inward. Going in is also an important part of the healing process too. So yeah, I appreciate the access to those. It’s been crazy, it feels divine. Anne: Totally. Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon. Shelly: Yeah, thank you so much.

After betrayal, one of the first questions a woman asks is, “How can I trust my husband again?” What she’s often really wondering is, how can she trust herself to know if he’s trustworthy, when it seemed like it was so easy for him to deceive her before. Women who want to feel emotionally safe again don’t need advice that pressures them to override their senses or their pain. 5 Ways to Know: How Can I Trust My Husband Again? 1. IF HE’S TRUSTWORTHY, YOUR BODY WILL NOTICE So many women say that they sensed their husband’s story, timeline, or reactions were odd, even before they had proof of his deception. But they felt and were even told by their husband and sometimes others that they were “overreacting” or they’re accused of being “suspicious.”  If your husband is becoming trustworthy, he’ll acknowledge that your feelings are valid and he’ll do whatever is needed to bring clarity and emotional safety. Your body can start to calm when you’re no longer having to be hyper-vigilant about everything. 2. He WON’T MakE Your Pain the Problem The pain of learning that your husband lied to you, cheated, and had a double life is overwhelming and completely normal. A trustworthy man will acknowledge the pain he caused and he won’t pressure you to “get over it” or act like you’re punishing him.  He will understand why you don’t trust him and he’ll tell the truth even when it means negative consequences for him. 3. YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO DIG FOR THE WHOLE TRUTH When a woman learns of her husband’s betrayal, every conversation about it can feel like an investigation. Often, the truth comes in bits and pieces. Your husband may have even said he didn’t tell you everything because he, “didn’t want to hurt you.” That might sound like compassion, but you can’t decide what’s best for your emotional safety if you don’t know the whole truth about your husband’s betrayal. If your husband is serious about being trustworthy, he won’t believe that it’s okay for you to not know everything. 4. His Actions Make Your Life Feel Lighter, Not Heavier After a husband’s betrayal, many women are told that rebuilding trust is partly their responsibility. They’re encouraged to consider how his childhood wounds, stress, or shame caused him to be dishonest and to support him by making things easier for him at home. If he is becoming trustworthy, he won’t expect you to be responsible for any part of his repair or recovery. And he won’t let you struggle with managing the weight of his betrayal in addition to responsibilities at home alone just because he needs relief. 5. You WON’T Have to Betray Yourself to TRUST HIM This may be the clearest sign of all. Is he showing signs that you can you trust him to accept the truth about how you feel now. Does he accept that the relationship may never be the “same as it was?” If he’s becoming trustworthy, he won’t just be trying to get back to the way things were, he’ll accept what his betrayal did to you as a person and how it changed the relationship. So, How Can I Trust My Husband Again? If you feel anxious, suspicious, numb, angry, or afraid, it may mean your body is still trying to protect you. And that is perfectly normal. You don’t have to carry this alone. You deserve support from people who understand why betrayal feels so devastating. The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse test. Support To Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again To get live support from women who understand, join our daily, online betrayal trauma support group. This episode is part of Shelly’s StoryPart 1: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? (THIS EPISODE)Part 2: How To Recover After Being Cheated On Transcript: How Can I Trust My Husband Again? Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly. Shelly: Hi, thank you. Anne: So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning. Shelly: Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too, with so many me too examples. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma. And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child. And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim. Teenage Trauma & Abuse Shelly: He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I had betrayal trauma from infidelity. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them. He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this. Anne: Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online? Shelly: I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now. Grooming & Exploitation Shelly: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. There are so many types of exploitation. Anne: Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose. Shelly: A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry. Shelly: Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away. Anne: He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too. Shelly: Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle. Anne: The exploitation business. Shelly: Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them. Finding Safety & New Relationships Shelly: You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again. Anne: I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. Shelly: Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot. He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past. Anne: Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you? Shelly: Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number. My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. He Tells So Many Lies Shelly: When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to. He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom. He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma. My whole world was falling apart. My Friend Becomes My Partner Shelly: That’s when my now partner came along. He was as a close friend for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker. He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story. I had a fairy-tale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships. Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal Shelly: So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person. Anne: I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it. Shelly: Yes, exactly, Anne: I found you. Shelly: Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day. https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ I had many D-Days after the first admission. I believed I had damage and trust issues. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own. Realizing The Extent Of The Lies Shelly: I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it. Anne: Yeah, you have a superpower. Shelly: Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly. Anne: Was that a relief to you in some ways? Shelly: I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword. Anne: At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work? Shelly: It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate. The Pain Of Gaslighting Shelly: I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work. Anne: What an amazing gift… Shelly: Yeah, Anne: …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy? Shelly: Exactly. Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly. Shelly: Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me. Anne: That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe. Shelly: No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine. Anne: And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level. Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information Shelly: Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again. Anne: Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us. Shelly: Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now. Anne: So it’s been a year since he told you. Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed. Seeking The Truth Anne: Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen? Shelly: No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that. The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it. So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again. He Gives A Full Disclosure Shelly: It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic. Anne: Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that? Shelly: I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse. Anne: So how are you feeling now? Shelly: Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts Shelly: So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore. Anne: On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you. But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on? Shelly: Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in. Anne: So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use? Shelly: Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years. Anne: Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that. Why Disclose Now? Anne: In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it. When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. He would tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now? Shelly: So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this? Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change Shelly: So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me. Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine. He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay. And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again? Anne: Yeah, that is good. Challenges In Counseling Anne: I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky. Shelly: I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem? Anne: You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah. Shelly: Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route. Validation & Healing Shelly: We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together. Anne: Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story? Shelly: I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma, and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community Anne: As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again. Shelly: And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands. Anne: Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do? Shelly: I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice. Anne: And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you. Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again Shelly: Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again. Anne: I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him? So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that. Shelly: Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now. Reflections On Change & Trust Anne: Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year. I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again. Shelly: Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah. Anne: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch. Shelly: Yeah, I will do, thank you.

When you can’t shake the feeling your husband is lying, you start living in two realities at once. The version he presents… and the version your gut keeps whispering about. Most women tell me that whisper eventually becomes impossible to ignore. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who discovered their husband’s lies—affairs, double lives, hidden behaviors, shifting stories.Almost all of them said the same thing: “I wish someone had told me what was actually happening so I didn’t waste months—or years—trying to make sense of the confusion.” The Subtle Signs Your Husband Is Lying (That Most Women Miss) Before you hear Stacey’s interview—where she discovered her husband was living an entire double life—you need something women rarely get: A framework that makes sense of your confusion, before you… go through one more circular conversation spend years in couple therapy doubt yourself one more time If you’re wondering whether your husband is lying, you do not need more conversations that go nowhere.You need answers. Fast. If You Think Your Husband Is Lying, Start Here My Clarity After Betrayal Workshop ($27) gives you the exact tools women told me they wished they’d had before they went to clergy or therapy for help. It helps you: recognize when conversations are meant to confuse you stop second-guessing yourself see what’s actually going on in your marriage know your next steps with confidence This is the foundation. Without knowing these things, the women I interviewed said they went around in circles for years after they discovered his lies. 👉 Get Clarity After Betrayal When Your Husband Is Lying, It’s Not Your Fault You Don’t SEe It The women I interviewed on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast described the same unmistakable patterns: 1. The rehearsed pauses In my interviews, I heard about a moment when she asked a simple question… and he paused. She remembered his blank look. His delayed answer. His strange shift in his tone. Turns out he needed that time to think about which version of the story he was going to share. Which version put him in the best light and kept her in the dark. 2. The “You’re overreacting” deflection Women told me about how he redirected the focus onto her tone, her timing, or her memory so she stopped noticing the inconsistencies in his story. 3. The polished image Many women discovered that her lying husband often looked impressive everywhere else. He appeared: deeply spiritual charming and respected responsible and accomplished gentle, “could never hurt anyone” values-driven This is partially why his lies were so difficult to comprehend. The disconnect between how he was perceived and who he really was left most women feeling more isolated than the lying itself. Why It’s So Hard to Trust Yourself When Your Husband Is Lying When women began to ask questions, many describe an internal battle: “Maybe I misunderstood.” “Am I too sensitive?” “I shouldn’t push him.” “Is it just stress?” But here’s the truth: You don’t start questioning your reality unless something is already destabilizing it. If your husband is lying, he’s consistently creating tiny confusions constantly, shifting explanations. Because of that, it’s natural for women to doubt themselves. And that doubt isn’t a flaw, but it is a signal. What To Do When Your Husband Is Lying: You Need Answers, Not Circles Trying to “get to the truth” with him if he’s lying can keep you trapped in cycles of: confusion self-doubt temporary solutions that don’t pan out long term You deserve to know what over 200 women told me they wished they’d known. That’s why I put together my Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Stacey’s Story: The Day She said out Loud, “My Husband Is Lying” On my podcast, Stacey shared how she spent years trying to make sense of her husband’s inconsistencies, until she discovered he had an entire second life she didn’t know about. Her answers didn’t come from more conversations with him. It came from recognizing the pattern behind the confusion, the same pattern hundreds of women describe. And once she saw it, she couldn’t unsee it. Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy. Stacey: Thank you. It’s great to be here. Anne: Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him? Stacey: No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind Anne: Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?” Stacey: Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused, I mean everything he said was practically an example of emotional abuse. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on. Anne: Learning how abusers gaslight can help figure out what’s going on. Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time? Stacey: For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck. When You Can’t Shake The Feeling Your Husband Is Lying Anne: So what persona did he use to manipulate you? Of course, this is going to hurt you because lying is emotional abuse. Stacey: Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued. Anne: So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something? Stacey: Yeah, 10 years. Anne: Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair? Stacey: Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state. And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me. Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair. Uncovering the Affair SHe WasN’t Supposed to Know About Stacey: He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and lying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that. So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad. Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later. Anne: It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face? Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Anne: Had you seen that ever in your marriage before? Stacey: I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was. The “Stare of a Liar”: Recognizing That Frozen, Blank Look Stacey: To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change. Anne: I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.” You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.” And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that. Stacey: Right. Anne: And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right? Seeking Help When You Know Your Husband Is Lying Anne: I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you. That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar. Stacey: Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look. Anne: Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. While you are experiencing the stages of deliverance from abuse. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Stacey: I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either. The Subtle Signs Your Husband Is Lying (That Most Women Miss) Anne: After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that. Stacey: He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me. And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week. And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else. When Your Husband Is Lying About His “Progress” Anne: Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person. Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn. Stacey: Oh. Anne: And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while? Stacey: Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair. Using Language From His Program To Lie Even More Anne: Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you? Stacey: A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot. Anne: And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t. Stacey: Yes, totally. Anne: We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy. And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate. How He Used Therapy Lingo To Hide The Truth Anne: They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy. Stacey: Right. Anne: I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me. Stacey: Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me. Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff. They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows. Her Husband Was Lying to Clergy and Therapists Too Anne: So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working? Stacey: Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like … https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc Anne: What? Stacey: … leave me. This is a counselor. Anne: He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy. Stacey: It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven. The Spiritual Pressure Women Feel When Their Husband Is Lying Stacey: He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging. Anne: Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader. So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides? Stacey: Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this. Anne: What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence. Stacey: Yeah. Anne: So, I need to get myself hence from this. Finding Validation and The Truth Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation? Stacey: I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on. Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big. Anne: I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you. So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed. The Power Of Community When Your Husband is Lying Anne: And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time. Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here. So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse? Stacey: It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave. But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years. Anne: Seven years since the affair? Stacey: Yeah. Anne: Okay. How Her Husband’s Lies Impacted Their Children Stacey: And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested. And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go. Anne: It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions. But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no. If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what. The Impact Of His Lies On Decision Making Anne: I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea. Stacey: I don’t either. Anne: I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety. And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you. So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like. The Workshop Will Give you Clarity Anne: And that’s why I put together The Clarity After Betrayal workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. My workshop gives women answers. These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary. Stacey: Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time. Anne: Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife? Stacey: No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view. My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions. When He LIes About Whose Fault it is The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. Anne: Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job. Stacey: Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed. Anne: Did he get remarried? Stacey: No, neither of them did. Anne: Your brother’s an abuser. Stacey: Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely. Anne: Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy? Stacey: Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think. Anne: That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men. The Reality of a Husband’s Lies Anne: Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it. Stacey: Wow. Anne: So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation. Stacey: Scary statistics. Anne: If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her? Stacey: I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad. When Your Husband Is Lying: The Value of Women In Faith Anne: In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times. I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us? Stacey: Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying. Anne: I also think it’s how we were treated. Stacey: Oh yeah, absolutely. Anne: So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry. Gender Roles, Expectations, and Your Sense of Self Anne: And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life? Stacey: No. Anne: Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies. So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp. Stacey: It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me. How Bigger Societal Patterns Shape Men To Justify Lying To Their Wives Anne: They don’t cherish us. Stacey: Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly? Anne: That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us. Stacey: Right, exactly. Anne: When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her. Stacey: How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you? Seeking God’s Help When Your Confused Anne: In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me. And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures. So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance. So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil. The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance Anne: You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together. It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea. You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that. And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. God Delivers Us From Evil Anne: God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil. They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them. The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius. Stacey: Yeah, that’s big. Anne: The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time. Stacey: Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff. Reconciling Your Faith With the Reality of His Lies Anne: I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church? Stacey: Yes, she did, yeah. Anne: So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation. Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that. Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do. When Your Husband Is Lying & Blaming the Messenger Anne: I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined. Stacey: Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit. Anne: I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right? No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on. The Power of Truth, Community, and Finally Seeing Clearly Stacey: Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth. Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true. Anne: Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him. Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever. After Betrayal, Lean on The Strength of Others Stacey: Yeah, right. Anne: The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time.

Has your husband betrayed your trust, lied to you, or left you feeling confused about what’s really happening? Many women think, “Maybe we just need couples therapy near me to fix this.” It makes perfect sense to want support when the marriage feels unstable. But here’s what most women don’t learn until much later: After interviewing over 200 women who experienced their husband’s betrayal, I discovered that couple therapy often makes things worse if he has a history of lying. Many women told me they walked out feeling even more confused than they were when they walked in. Before you schedule couple therapy near me, here’s what you need to know. Why Couple Therapy Near Me Often Backfires After Betrayal Any couple therapy, whether it’s near you or if you do in online, is designed for two people who are honest, transparent. But when betrayal or deception happened, couple therapy sessions tend to shift in the wrong direction. Women describe: feeling talked in circles being treated as if both partners contributed equally having their concerns minimized leaving sessions with more confusion instead of clarity Instead of addressing the real issue, his choices, his patterns, and his secrecy, therapy often redirects the focus onto “communication skills,” or “relationship dynamics.” Meanwhile, the woman is still left without the one thing she needs most: Answers. Consider taking my free after infidelity email course. What You Need Before Looking For Couple Therapy Near Me Before you sit in a room with a couples therapist near you and try to explain what’s been happening, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding: what his behavior actually means the signs that indicate whether therapy will help—or harm That’s why I created the Clarity After Betrayal workshop. It’s the resource over 200 women I interviewed told me they desperately needed before spending months or years in therapy that didn’t address the real problem. The videos series helps you: understand the patterns behind gaslighting and mixed messages stop second-guessing what you’re experiencing see your situation clearly, without anyone minimizing it be confident about your next steps If you’re trying to figure out whether couple therapy near me will help your marriage, the workshop is the essential first step. 👉 Clarity After Betrayal ($27) Transcript: Considering Looking for Couples Therapy Near Me? What You Need To Know Anne: I have a member of our community on today. We’re going to call her Ruby. Welcome, Ruby. Ruby: Thank you, Anne. I feel privileged to be here and to help other women in my situation feel like they’re not alone. Anne: Let’s start with your story. Ruby: We met through a mutual friend who now completely sees what he is and feels devastated for me. He once told me he wanted to pursue someone else and realized I was easier to con. Anne: Wow. Ruby: Her parents were stable, and mine weren’t. She had an aware mother and a really good dad. For me, scripture influenced my choices in a way that made me believe I couldn’t leave my home unless I was married. Anne: Looking back, you realize that wasn’t true? Ruby: Correct. Technically I could have left, but heavy condemnation surrounded any thought of it. People insisted that leaving without being married “wouldn’t be of God.” We met when I was 19, and he used church language, God, and scripture to present himself as someone who wanted the same family life I wanted. I thought I was choosing a righteous man. He acted fun, lively, and said all the right things. I had no reason then to imagine I might one day start searching for clarity or wondering if a couples therapist near me could help. Early Red Flags Even Before Thinking About a Couples Therapist Near Me Ruby: The long-distance relationship made his con easier because he controlled what I saw. He always said our time together was “time well spent.” That illusion made it harder for me to question things later. Fourteen months later we married, and I became pregnant. He pressured me into premarital sex, something I never wanted because of my values. That pressure created shame that stayed with me for years. Ruby: My family felt devastated, and people shunned me. He never carried any of that shame. That contrast should have warned me long before I ever wondered whether a couples therapist near me could help make sense of what was happening. Anne: Many women describe that same pressure. They don’t recognize it as coercion until much later. The so-called “righteous man” eventually uses the shame against them for years. Anne: Was that true for you? Ruby: Yes. He used anything he could to break me down. He recognized my guilt and took advantage of it. The Pattern of “Lucid Moments” That Created More Confusion Ruby: Sometimes he had what I call lucid moments. Once he admitted our premarital sex was his fault. Weeks later, he denied ever saying it. He always knew the truth, but he twisted it whenever it served him. Those moments confused me and made it harder to see the bigger pattern, something a couples therapist near me would likely misinterpret as miscommunication. Anne: They sometimes drop a tiny bit of truth to manipulate. Then they pretend they never knew it. Ruby: Exactly. He did that for years. He once told me the kids and I would be better off with another man, then denied it the next day. His motives were calculated and passive-aggressive. He wanted me to look unstable. Anne: Do you think he sometimes told the truth so you would be the one to take action and then he could blame you? Ruby: Yes. He wanted me to feel responsible for everything while he stayed in control. His Image vs. His Private Behavior Ruby: Early on, he told me he’d been wild in the Navy but stopped drinking after waking up on a bathroom floor. That was fine with me because it wasn’t like I went to parties all the time. He wanted to look reformed. He claimed he had never slept with anyone before, but then he hinted at inappropriate situations, like a coworker undressing in front of him. I believed him because he framed those stories as accidents instead of choices. Later the military discharged him, and he tried to blame everyone else. Looking back, the pattern stood out clearly, and no couples therapist near me could have fixed a man committed to deception. I don’t believe he was a virgin when we met. He used the idea of “we made this mistake together” to bind me to him. Now I see that as another lie. Anne: That’s very likely. Ruby: Yes. What Ruby First Believed About the Problems in the Marriage Anne: Let’s go back in time for a moment. What did you think the problems were back then? Did you believe he was stressed at work, overwhelmed, or dealing with normal marriage challenges? Ruby: I thought the good outweighed the bad. He acted very family-oriented and talked about caring for his parents. So I assumed everyone had flaws, and as long as more things went right than wrong, we were okay. Anne: Did you ever think it was your fault? Did you ever think, “If I do this better, maybe he won’t get upset”? Ruby: During dating, no. He acted like the stable one and framed me as emotional or overly excited about things. He positioned himself as the grounding force in my life, someone steady. Confusion Growing Before Ever Considering a Couples Therapist Near Me Ruby: Looking back, he probably did things I couldn’t see, but he made it seem like he was strong and I was the one who needed correction. That dynamic made me less likely to question the confusion. Anne: As the relationship progressed and you thought, “This is just his personality,” did you reach a point where you sought help? Did you consider counseling, clergy, or even looking up a couples therapist near me? Ruby: Oh yes, absolutely. He’s adopted and has an adopted sibling, and he used that as an excuse to say counseling ruined him. He strongly insisted, “I don’t do counseling,” and blamed his parents for forcing him into it. The First Attempts at Counseling and How They Failed Ruby: I should have noticed the contradiction between how he presented himself as family-oriented and how he criticized his parents every day. He claimed I was “against them,” even though he constantly complained about them. I mean my husband was constantly angry. Our first counseling attempt went terribly. He resisted the idea from the start, and convincing him took a lot of energy. The couple leading the session didn’t have the skills to guide us. They asked us to take compatibility tests, and I thought, “We’re already married. Why does that matter now?” Then they focused on our sex life, which felt intrusive and irrelevant. We ended up stopping because it helped nothing. Many women don’t realize marriage counseling can actually worsen things, even before they search for a couples therapist near me. An abusive partner can twist counseling into another weapon. He Finally Agreed to Counseling — And Used It Against Her Ruby: When he finally agreed to counseling, he loved it because he controlled the narrative. He pretended to want help, but he shut down every real issue I raised. When I tried to talk about his behavior toward our son, he became angry and defensive. When you go into counseling with someone who mistreats you, the counselor often assumes you’re dealing with ordinary “marriage problems.” They focus on communication or stress instead of harmful behavior. Their assumptions end up protecting him. Anne: Exactly. They think you’re not communicating well or not having enough sex or that he needs anger management. They misidentify the entire issue right from the start, and once they do, the help becomes harmful. Misdiagnosis and the Limits of a Couples Therapist Near Me Anne: In my case, people assumed pornography addiction caused all the problems. That might have been part of it, but it wasn’t the thing destroying my marriage. Most therapists don’t recognize abuse even when you describe it clearly. The average therapist misses the pattern, and even when they see pieces of it, they often don’t know how to respond. They default to generic couples therapy tools and say, “Let’s explore your childhoods” or “Let’s work on communication,” while the real issue continues unchecked. You don’t know what’s actually happening, and the professionals you seek also don’t know. This happens constantly when a woman’s husband controls the narrative in therapy. Ruby: Yes, exactly. They need to ask better questions. Anne: That’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal. So women could know what to expect before they schedule with a couples therapist near me. The workshop includes what more than 200 women told me they wish they had known. It’s only $27 and gives answers years faster (and much cheaper) than couples therapy. Religious Messaging Made Ruby Think Couples Therapy Would Help Ruby: I heard my mom say many times, “I made my commitment under God, to God, in my marriage, no matter what your dad does.” That belief created such heavy bondage for her, and it breaks my heart when I think about it now. Anne: When I first started podcasting, I felt scared and confused and fought to keep my vows at all costs. I prayed, fasted, and hoped things would change because I didn’t want to disappoint God. Now I feel the opposite because I believe God wants women to separate from evil and harm. Many women say God nudged them years earlier, but clergy gave them poor advice that kept them trapped. I hear that pattern again and again. Here’s an example of emotional abuse if that helps. When Ruby Realized Couples Therapy Wasn’t Helping Ruby: I remember driving home and dreading walking through my own door. I took the kids everywhere because being alone with him created constant anxiety. Even errands felt safer. Around that time, we also got a puppy, and the responsibility overwhelmed me. I kept praying for direction because nothing made sense, and I felt exhausted trying to hold everything together. Then he left on his own. He packed his car two days before Father’s Day and didn’t try to hide it. I begged him to wait because the kids had made him gifts. He looked at me and said, “I don’t need any more meaningless crap,” and drove away. At the end of that month, God spoke to me clearly and said, “Enough. You’re done. Let him go.” Something inside me shifted immediately. It felt like God lifted him out of my heart. I finally felt space to breathe. In the beginning, everything felt raw, and I couldn’t see beyond that moment. I had just started seeing the truth of what I lived through. I didn’t yet realize how much clarity would come later—long before a couples therapist near me could have helped. For Women Who Feel Guilty About Couples Therapy Making Things Worse Ruby: For any woman who feels condemnation, I want her to know this: you didn’t break your vow. Your husband’s choices broke the marriage. You still have value, dignity, and worth. You’re not damaged goods in God’s eyes. You never were. I speak out to help women stop blaming themselves for harm they didn’t cause. You’re not breaking up your family. His choices already did that. Pretending everything was fine only deepened the damage. Staying silent gave him protection, not me. As he grew more volatile and irrational, I grew more afraid of doing the wrong thing. He trained me to manage his world so he didn’t have to regulate himself. I handled the home, the kids, and every detail. Because I carried that load, he told others I acted controlling. That projection confused me for years. No couples therapist near me could have revealed those dynamics without seeing the truth behind closed doors. The Social Backlash When Couples Therapy Fails Ruby: I think many of us fear that people won’t understand and will condemn us for doing the right thing. A friend of mine was labeled a “husband basher” simply for describing her reality. Their mutual friends didn’t want that truth. I knew she wasn’t bashing him. She was finally naming what harmed her. But when others feel invested in maintaining a certain image of him, they reject anything that disrupts their version of the story. They want to believe you just didn’t complete the therapist’s assignments. Anne: Or they simply don’t believe you. They believe the man who lies and manipulates because it’s easier. It happens far too often and leaves women feeling isolated. This is so common when you are dealing with your abusive husband’s therapist. Healing Without a Couples Therapist Near Me Writing became a meaningful part of your healing process. It let you express your pain. Even though we aren’t sharing your writing today, I know it helped you see truths you couldn’t say out loud yet. Ruby: It really did. Writing helped me turn pain into something I could see and understand. For years I felt split because I tried to serve two masters and live two different lives. I tried to serve God while staying united with someone who wasn’t walking toward God at all. Nothing he did aligned with God. That realization revealed how much confusion I carried. https://youtube.com/shorts/eTzRfKboinw When separation happened, something settled inside me. For the first time in years, I felt aligned with God again. A couples therapist near me couldn’t have created that shift because it required honesty, not mediation. How Women Can Get Education Before Trying Couples Therapy Ruby: Women should ask themselves: Are you living with constant turmoil? Do you feel torn between serving God and staying united with your husband? That inner conflict signals something deeper. The clarity journey is long and exhausting, but essential. Building community supports you through the confusion. Strong community helps you stay grounded when things feel heavy. Anne: Thank you so much. Your story and courage will help so many women who feel alone. Your willingness to share matters. Ruby: Thank you for having me. It has been my privilege. Hope for Women Moving Forward Ruby: The only thing I want women to know is this: don’t assume this is the end. Your life isn’t over, even if it feels that way. Anne: It’s true. Beautiful and meaningful things still lie ahead, even when the path feels difficult. Ruby: Thank you. And thank you for giving women a place to find real answers before spending years in couples therapy.

Counter parenting is one of the most overlooked forms of abuse, where one parent actively works against the other instead of with them. It undermines stability, confuses children, and normalizes emotional abuse in ways that often go unseen. In this episode, we talk about how to recognize counter parenting and why understanding it is vital for creating safety and freedom for you and your kids. To see if your partner’s behavior is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Six Truths About Counter Parenting Every Mom Needs To Know 1. Counter parenting looks harmless IN public, but it’s cruel IN private. In public, it may sound like jokes. It may seem like teasing, but in private it cuts deep. What seems like humor or sympathy actually erodes a child’s respect for their mom. 2. counter parenting keeps you busy and confused. He creates constant fires with the kids that keep you spinning your wheels so that you have to be involved and he can exploit you for parenting. You’re left doing the chores he forgot. Fixing problems he “didn’t know how to handle” or covering responsibilities he shrugs off. The chaos robs you of energy for real parenting and distracts you from the core issue, a pattern of deception and control. 3. counter parenting normalizes emotional abuse. His anger issues or stress mask his manipulation. He uses secrets and favors to pull kids into his corner and create distance from you. 4. counter parenting grooms and isolates the protective parent. I went through this. I was so stressful all the time. People thought it was my fault, and they distanced themselves from me. Which was very difficult. While redefining you as unstable, he love bombs the children with gifts, leniency, and special treatment to position himself as the fun one and undermine your authority. It’s important to know that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that. 5. The kids will figure it out sooner than you think. Kids quickly learn who they feel safe with eventually they will come to know who they can count on. 6. if he’s a terrible husband, he can’t be a good father. A man who lies and degrades women can never be a good dad. If this list resonates with your experiences in your marriage, there is a strong possibility you may be facing emotional abuse. To learn effective strategies for protecting yourself, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Transcript: Counter Parenting Hidden Truths You Should Know Anne: I have A. S. King on today’s episode. I think you’ll resonate with her story, especially when we get to this part. Her latest book is called Pick The Lock. Amy: I didn’t know this at the time, and I really know it now. One can’t be a terrible husband and a good father. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Anne: So yes, our topic today is counter parenting. A. S. King is incredible. The New York Times book Review called her one of the best YA writers working today. And is one of YA fiction’s most decorated. She’s the only two-time winner of the American Library Association’s Michael L. Prince Award. She won the LA Times book prize for Ask the Passengers. And in 2022, Amy received the ALA’s, Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement in YA literature. So as you listen to Amy, you’ll hear each of those six things in her story. Welcome, Amy. Amy: Thank you for having me, Anne. From the very beginning, I followed you on Instagram. I often link your graphics in my stories in Instagram. Your graphics are educational, when you will find yourself in a situation where there is abuse. It mattered so much to me, because I lived almost 30 years with abuse. I had this one book called Still Life with Tornado. It came out in 2016. A lot of recovery groups for women who have been through abuse use that one, specifically psychological and emotional abuse. Which of course is always present when any of the other stuff is there. This year I just released a book called Pick the Lock, which is very close to, a lot of the things I’ve been dealing with. Before I finally divorced, and since. The Silent Tyrant: The Subversive Tactics of the Counter Parent Amy: Actually, the book for this year is all about what I found out about counter parenting. This is part of why I wanted to come here. I know that some listeners in that space I can help and fix this, and they’re stuck. Because I was stuck for 29 years. I believed so many things and I thought so many things. We all know hindsight’s 20-20. You learn life backward, right? That’s how it works. And what I learned in the last few years really taught me. That a huge part of the rest of my life will be trying to compassionately warn women and young women. And that our levels of comfort and safety are actually incredibly important, even though society constantly tells us that they are not. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about why I love your work so much. Anne: I’m so grateful that you reached out, and excited when artists, writers, use your unique talents to help other women. So as you’re considering teaching a generation of women through YA fiction about how to recognize abuse, what are some patterns that every woman needs to know regardless of their age? Amy: One of the best things about writing fiction for me is that it’s not implicating somebody, even though it’s all true. It’s sort of, like showing the behaviors. And showing the reactions to the behaviors. In Still Life with Tornado, for example, the mother has a point of view part. So she speaks from her own point of view. But the father, he’s just that silent tyrant. Sort of that quiet abuse that’s really easy to get away with, because it’s quiet and it’s only aimed at disrespecting his wife in that book. Treating you terribly in front of the children Amy: Chad is always doing small things that are unhelpful and disruptive, but he thinks no one else can see it. Now from the point of view of the 16 year old daughter, she can absolutely see it. And in my own life, I was like, isn’t that interesting? I write books about how young people see abuse, recognize it, and harmed by it. It’s not possible to do that. And while that seems unfair, he takes them to the movies. Yes, I understand he does all those things, but he also treats you terribly in front of your children, and behind your back is doing some form of counter parenting. And counter parenting is a term I only really just learned, and really understood that is what my life was made of. And I didn’t know it, because it’s all done behind your back. That’s the whole point. Turning your kids against you without even you knowing it. Because you’re so busy trying to fix him and fix the situation, and get him back to the guy he was when you got married. Who didn’t exist, by the way. So for me, the pattern of the person being abused is what I’m focusing on, because there’s domestic violence in many of my novels, even my middle grade novels for younger readers. Because that young person is in the house trying to help mom see it. And help mom escape. I guess I’m writing about my own mistakes. I’m looking at my own mistakes and saying, look, I’m putting this on the page so I can learn from it. Counter Parenting in Action: Breaking What Matters Most to You Amy: And I mean, Anne, I wrote a middle grade book called Attack of the Black Rectangles. It’s about censorship. and book banning. She still invites the ex-husband over for the sake of the child. She feeds him dinner once a week. And her father, the grandfather, lives in the basement. So it’s like an interesting kind of new family structure, and there’s this scene where the son is sitting at the table, the mom is doing some stuff in the kitchen, she’d been looking for this mug. It meant a lot to her, and she couldn’t find it anywhere. She’d asked her dad, she’d asked the son. So then this ex-husband shows up and she says, “Oh, by the way, have you seen my mug?” And he says, “I smashed it.” The kid’s sitting right at the table, and the grandfather’s too. And she said, “Wait, you mean like it broke on the way out of the dishwasher?” He goes, “No, I smashed it because I was angry.” And he kept that terrifying tone. It was interesting because when my editor read that, for some reason, that’s when he texted me and said, oh my gosh, the mug scene. And I wrote back to him, I’m like, that happened. It’s the idea that we go, he has anger issues. Really? Did he smash his boss’s mug? No. Did he smash a stranger’s mug? No. He only smashed the things that were important to you. And in the end, he takes things from the house, and the only things he takes are things from the son and the ex-wife, so it’s these sort of things I don’t have any time for anymore. Counter Parenting Disguised as Humor Normalizes Abuse Amy: I don’t have any time for it, because I got free. It’s the best thing ever. I wake up every morning going, oh, putting my hands up like I just won a race every single morning, because I’m free. And it’s wonderful. So Pick the Lock came out and I’m a weirdo too, right? So I write weird stuff, but I also write trauma, specifically, because regardless of what kind of trauma I’m putting in there, I think weirdness really helps. There’s an emotional currency in weirdness. Because when one has gone through trauma, you feel weird because the world’s like shhh, we don’t want to hear about that. “Why don’t you just solve that problem by yourself? Be cool, shhh.” And that’s a terrible way to deal with trauma. That’s how we’ve been dealing with this, is most people are kids. Everybody’s like no, but don’t talk about that. I believe people should talk about their trauma. So in Pick the Lock, it’s really about the counter parenting I learned about after the divorce. I got to tell you the story about the guy at Target, classic counter parenting and totally acceptable in our culture. This is a real like old style Rodney Dangerfield almost kind of joke. He’s got three girls. And he’s at the self checkout. The kids were probably at the most, the oldest was maybe nine and the others were pretty little, down to maybe four and he’s got the three girls there around the cart he gets some cash back. And when he takes the cash out of the machine, he goes, “And you know who we won’t give this to. Who won’t we give this money to? We won’t give this money to Mommy because all she’s gonna do is spend it.” YA character sees the abuse from a different perspective Amy: That’s not what you tell your children. If you married to her, you have her back. That’s the whole point of a partnership. This is a huge type of psychological abuse and emotional abuse that people do to children. He thinks he’s being funny. But he’s not. That’s just mean and nasty. That’s a typical sort of everyday example of what counter parenting really is. Anne: Because your books are YA and the main character is a young adult, they are seeing the abuse from a different perspective. How has that helped you process abuse? Than say, the wife of the abuser who maybe doesn’t realize what’s going on, or maybe she does and doesn’t know what to do. She’s resisting it by trying couple therapy, or she’s resisting by going to clergy, or she’s resisting in a way that’s not keeping her safe, it’s not keeping her kids safe. But it’s the best she can do, because she doesn’t understand what’s going on. Amy: Like if I look back at now 35 years of my life, it’s more than half of my life. I’m 54. So like when I look back at that amount of time and look at how many things I was lied to about, holy cow! And now I’m starting to see the small stuff, like dumb stuff. Like, this is how we paint the thing, or this is how we clean brushes. It was like, no, that’s just what you think. It’s not actually the only way to do a thing. I had to answer a question recently on a college financial aid application. Lying Is At The Core of Abuse and Counter Parenting Amy: It asked, “Is the person remarried?” I was like, no, but I almost wanted to put a question mark behind that, because I’m not sure. And, “Does the person have other children?” I’m like unknown. He lied so much. I honestly wouldn’t know. I would never intentionally hurt a person, would never take someone’s pain and use it against them. And I just listened to one of your episodes about forgiveness used against you. Some of the worst things that ever happened to me, of course, I shared those with my spouse. When you share that with a person, you expect them to keep that private for you, the way you keep things private for them. I got a lot of interesting messages in the last few years. A few of them were from women that had worked with him. They knew what they thought were secrets about me. They were lies, They weren’t secrets. He made up secrets based on the terrible things that happened to me. And told people that’s what I liked. He actually tried to pick up women by saying that I liked these weird things. And he just couldn’t do those weird things. It was like, wow, not only is that wrong, but when you share with somebody that you have been sexually assaulted or raped. And then they turn around and use that to pick up women at work. Then gets let go for serial sexual harassment. He’s a mess, just a walking, lying mess. Anne: The lying is the most important part of counter parenting. Lying is emotional and psychological abuse Anne: Determine if his character is a liar, which is an abuser, because lying is emotional and psychological abuse. You can’t process the information if you don’t have that baseline understanding. But once you realize that, everything changes. A woman might say to me, his therapist told him that I probably suffer from childhood trauma. And I always want to ask, who told you his therapist said that? Because he could literally not have gone to therapy at all. Amy: Correct. Anne: Not even have a therapist and tell you that his therapist said that, and he’s never even been to therapy. Or he could go to therapy and the therapist didn’t say that, but he chooses to say that when he gets home. This could apply to clergy. It could apply to his mom. It could apply to the neighbor. “Hey, this neighbor said this about you.” And so you’re thinking, wow, this is what the neighbor said when the neighbor never said it, or a billion other possibilities. But knowing that he’s a liar is the key to unlock all of it including counter parenting. How Counter Parenting Shows He Never Wanted to Make the Relationship Work Amy: It’s huge, that’s the key to the lock. And once you realize you can’t even answer basic questions. Because when you learn about the weird throwaway lies. And you learn about all these different lies. You realize, did he ever tell the truth? For me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m just like, well, you know, childhood stuff or this or that. And eventually, my son turned to me and said, “Will you keep making excuses for him your whole life?” And I was like, no, I’m not going to keep making excuses. But I did because I wanted everything to continue working out as best as it could. Which of course it never did. Because you know what? I was the only one wanting it. and doing the stuff required for something to work out for the best. But then once I started learning all these different things he was like, I must have a mental illness. I said, go and talk to your doctor or go to therapy. And then he said, “I have this mental illness.” You must take care of me. And so I did that. I remember being in a car in some strange place at a conference for publishing. And my editor in the back of the car said, “I don’t know why you stay with this person.” Knowing the stories I had told over the years. I was always late on deadlines. Oh, life was so complicated, they keep you busy so that you can’t do anything. You can’t even think. So I’m in this car, and I say, listen, if he had MS, or if he got diagnosed with a physical illness, would I leave him? He lied about mental illness No, I would stay with him. He has this illness. Then once things were over, my ex-husband and I had a conversation, and he laughed at me and said, “I never had a mental illness.” I said, “Well, you told the kids for 10 years that you had a mental illness. You told all of us.” And he went, “Yeah, I never had that.” I said, “Then why are you so abusive?” And he actually said, “It’s just because I’m an a-hole.” And I just left it at that. But then over the years, I’m like, hold it. The reason the house is in my name is because it’s my house, It was like, “Oh, you have to put my name in the mortgage because, I have this illness and that means I have a fear of this. And you have to put it there.” And then I look all the different things that I was coerced into doing based on this lie. Anne: Yeah, because of his lie. Amy: It’s incredible. At the very end, it was like, “I have an addiction now too.” And I’m like, “Once you come out of rehab, then you go and find a halfway house.” “You can’t put me in a halfway house. I have to come home.” Really!? The keeping you busy, the keeping you worried, the keeping you hypervigilant, the keeping you just edgy all the time is part of the trick! Anne: It is, yeah. Amy: It’s the whole thing! Anne: Trying to figure out what’s wrong and how you can help them is the trick with abusers. Amy: Absolutely. What to Do When The Counter Parent Uses Truth to Keep You Stuck Anne: It’s every part of it. You’ve probably heard me talk about the Living Free Workshop. I keep talking about it, because it’s how women can take a step back and notice these are just shadows. This is not reality, because abuse and counter parenting is a character issue. Even if they’re telling the truth it’s on purpose to achieve a goal. Not because they care about you. Amy: It’s all a scheme. Anne: Exactly, so, when someone says to me, “At that point, he finally told me he had an affair.” Or at that point, he finally told me he was addicted to drugs. I’m like, he may have told you the truth, but it wasn’t the whole truth. And then why then? What benefit did it have for him at that moment? Amy: Correct, there was a moment at that 10 year mark. I had just come back from a writer’s thing. I did my laundry, exactly what I needed for four days sat there folded next to a suitcase. SoI went upstairs and put it in the suitcase, because the kids had gone to bed and came back downstairs. I said, “I’m going to leave. I’m going to stay in a hotel tonight. I’ll be back for the kids tomorrow.” If I could go back in time. Anne, there are many times from many years before then I could have gone, but if I could go back in time, that’d be the night. But what happened was the talk happened. And I said, “You’re saying the same stuff as you always say. Unless you have something new to say.” False Mental illness as an excuse Amy: And that’s when he hooked me in with, I really need to take care of him. Even more than I’d already done. But it was convenient. Like you said, “Why right then is he saying that? There’s a reason, and it’s usually to keep you there.” That’s it, period. Also because he’s called you a liar so many times. And once you’re gaslit for 28 years, you’re so hyper vigilant about telling the truth that you will tell the whole story, including every single detail. I do it all the time, drives me nuts. You’ll still believe the things that they say. I’m a few years divorced. And, I actually had 7 strokes in about 26 hours. Anne: Wow. Amy: I’m fine. I went to my physical therapy, I I got my right side back, everything works. Anne: I’m so glad you’re okay. Amy: I’m still a little weak, and I still use the cane if I’m feeling extra tired. But anyway, I’m fine. So because I’m a writer and artist. I have a beautiful group of colleagues and friends in the business. And also I’m a hundred percent self employed. It’s check to check. I don’t know how I do it, but when news went out that I had a stroke and they knew I was in the hospital, one of my friends started a GoFundMe. To fund the few months for recovery, and go to physical therapy, and learn how to use my right side again and balance. Same time, I was planning a few things for the summer. Experiencing financial abuse from counter parenting Amy: My son and I were going to go to Europe. Once I was on the meds and my second checkup. I had said to the doc, “Is this dangerous or is this smart?” They’re like, “No, you’re good. You can do that. So we had to let Dad, know. And magically, about two weeks later, I got a child support review. And I’m like, that’s some pretty bad timing. He knows I’m going to be in Europe. He’s said, no, this is just because I don’t want to get into arrears. And I said, “Oh, how big was the raise you got?” And it wasn’t much. I really thought that he didn’t want to get into arrears until the phone call three months later. And he says something about the GoFundMe money. Anne: Ohhh!. Amy: It had nothing to do with his arrears. Let me get this straight. I’m 100 percent raising your child. Your wages are minimally garnished. Believe me, there were no lawyers involved in this. This is literally the minimum. And I am definitely paying, especially this year. Senior year, you’re paying so much more, but you came after the money my friends collected for me after I had a stroke and continued to raise your child. That is counter parenting. Anne: Yup. Amy: Like he had to help me get in and out of the car and you’re trying to take the little money we have. What is the issue? But by then I already knew. I knew this was a liar. But it still I swear it took me another two months. Abusers always have a goal Amy: One day I was just sitting here going, that’s why he brought that up. Now in hindsight, I can tell the story the way I just did. But in the middle, between the phone call hearing and two months after, I’ve been like, it was really weird. He asked about this, I can’t believe he asked about this.I’m like, girl, that is why he did it in the first place. What is it about you that believes people all the time? And it’s because I am a nice person. It’s that simple. Anne: Because they always have a goal, and you don’t know what that goal is. Amy: Right, it’s the scheme again. Anne: It’s so impossible, you’re not ever doing anything wrong. You’re just being a normal person. Amy: Keeping the house together, keeping the kids fed. I was pretty much the breadwinner for all those years. With the travel and just having to work all the time. He had more time to be with the kids to do his counter parenting. I have journals and wow, some of the things I wrote down. I look at it now and I’m like, wow, I believed that when I wrote it and that wasn’t true. The biggest thing I learned is how it is a mindset, how if someone’s always scheming, they’re always going to be scheming. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the supermarket and they are shoplifting or if they are, getting a job but they’re lying about their past. If they’re trying to figure out how to fake a vaccination that they didn’t get so that they can go to work, or whatever the heck it is. We are safe now Amy: Like, it’s always a scheme. It’s just how their brains work. Anne: Yeah, and they’ll scheme about things they don’t even need to scheme about. Amy: Exactly, and it gets worse. That was the one thing I didn’t understand. There’s so many things I love when you put your messaging out on Instagram and other places. When you say things like, “Once you figure out that you’re being abused, don’t tell the abuser he’s an abuser.” That is the best advice ever because you know what I did? I loaned, Why Does He Do That to my abuser. And then he learned more tricks. That’s all he learned from that book. It’s only going to get worse. We used to have a thing because of that book. I’m like, are you a 4% er or are you not a 4% er? I want to be a 4% er. I have texts and screenshots. While he was forcibly kissing so and so. Now I know what he was doing at that time, he will use all that stuff against you. He’s digging a hole or painting himself into a corner. But of course, he’s getting me to talk to him. So his digging is effective. I’m still talking to him about how he should or shouldn’t dig or paint himself into a corner and kind of going, Oh, you paint yourself into a corner. Instead of… Anne: Safety, Amy: Safety, exactly, yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly. That is why when I wake up in the morning, I do put my arms up and I’m like, yes! Every time because we are safe now. Realizing I can’t do it anymore with counter parenting Amy: This is a person who, at times said certain things like, “I know why you’re terrified of me. I wasn’t going to kill you, kill you. I was hoping you’d do me the favor.” Anne: What? Amy: And you’re there like, wow. And he teamed up with other people. He looked for allies in his hatred for me. This is weird story but here you go. I lived in a farm in Ireland a long time and rats do a thing that mice don’t do. If a rat is caught in a trap, his family friends will pull that trap down into the hole and have him for dinner. And that’s kind of how I feel about the whole thing of counter parenting. That’s what you’re dealing with. But you’re like, I’m not dealing with that. This is a nice guy, the guy that loves me. But where is he showing it? I remember the day I realized like, Ooh. I can’t do this anymore. My mom and dad had just had their 60th anniversary. They both came from interesting backgrounds, but they did make it work. And, my father’s taking care of my mom while she’s in a bad state. Looking at what love really looks like, I couldn’t get sick, I’m sure there are people nodding right now. I wasn’t allowed to get sick. If I got sick, I was in trouble. It wasn’t that real overt stuff. It was always covert, it was always a little bit snide a little side eye. And looking at my dad love my mom so much. Finding out what really happened Amy: It’s amazing. But I remember when they hit their 60th and my mom was talking to me. And I’m like, Oh I can’t get to 60, I can’t. I got out of there at 29, it just keeps getting worse and the lies get worse. And then, after, you walk away and find safety, you will learn a lot more about what really happened when you thought it was something else. Don’t feel foolish. It’s not your fault. Anne: Totally, with counter parenting. Amy: You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was trust a person. There’s nothing wrong with that. Anne: Can you talk about where you were when you started writing Pick the Lock? Like your mindset, the process you went through to write it? Amy: Like any other book, it starts way earlier than when the actual writing starts. It started with a post-it note, “If you can imagine like a zigzag, you could imagine a hamster tube with two 45 degree bends. At one of those bends, there was a chair, and then it just said “system”. I made that post-it note when I realized, thanks to my kids being open with me. And talking to me about the things their father told them about me. I thought my narrative and who I was in my life was clear. But I didn’t realize that while I was in the kitchen, they could be pulled aside in the room right next to the kitchen and told terrible lies about me. And so they had to deal with that. Many, women are like, “Well, he’s a terrible husband, but he’s a great father.” Poisoning and redefining my family Amy: And I will say again, those two things cannot coexist. Because that person is cruelly treating their mother in front of them. You, you can’t keep these things from the children. It’s not a woman’s fault to stay and try and try and try ’cause that’s what we do. People tell us to try. In reality, those kids know what’s going on. Then they’re sometimes extra confused. Because so often this is how counter parenting happens. I did not know how common it was until I started talking about it with people, groups, and other women. It turns out that this is something that’s quite common. So I wanted to write about it. Because that little hamster tube with the chair in it was me. It was the narrative. A visual representation of what it was like to not control my own narrative, even though I literally lived it. Like show, don’t tell, which is a real writing thing. You show, you don’t tell. So I lived it and showed it. I was the breadwinner. I was doing all these great things for my family. But while I was gone doing those great things to be able to feed my family. Someone who really wanted control and power over that narrative redefined my family. Anne: Almost poisoned. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. When you lie, when you lie to a child, I don’t care what it’s about. When you lie to a child for your own gain. That’s a certain kind of poison, no doubt. counter parenting: The Book is told through a 16 year old’s viewpoint Anne: Yeah, so I wanna talk about the book, without giving too much away. So I’ll only talk about what happened in the beginning, the motifs or symbolism. I think the tube situation is obvious, the symbolism there where you are separated and isolated, even though you’re still in the same home. Amy: Correct, you’re right there in the same room. You eat dinner with your family, but he isolates you through counter parenting. Absolutely, that’s part of it too, right? So it’s weird, those tubes represented so many things. This happens with books when you’re a writer. The longer you’re away from a book, the more you see in it. You’re like, oh, wow! I basically personified the patriarchy and then drowned it. That was satisfying. If only it was that easy in real life. The story starts with Jane, the story is told through a 16-year-old daughter’s point of view. And Jane has just discovered she calls them home movies. But it’s really security footage from inside her home for the last 20 years. It’s long before she was born. That’s when she starts seeing everything she heard about her family. Or even the person telling her, her father, everything she ever knew about her family was a lie. And she’s furious as anyone would be. I think that also represents what a lot of us go through once we separate and divorce or we walk away from somebody who’s been abusive. I honestly only yesterday, found out a new tidbit. It just keeps happening. She finds out the truth Amy: Anyway, Jane has access to a cloud. Where all these movies are, and the more movies she watches, she has to do what we all do. She has to question her memories. She’s like, Ooh, I know I was four when this one counter parenting thing happened. Or I know, I was this age when this one thing happened. And she’s going through that years’ footage and those particular rooms, ’cause there’s, four or five cameras that she’s aware of. She’s trying to find these memories she has. And she can’t find them or she finds partial ones, or most importantly, she keeps finding new ones that she doesn’t have as memories, but now they’re right there in front of her. And it really explains her parents’ relationship. It explains everything she blamed her mom for, because that’s what she was told to do. And encouraged to do. It shows the truth. The idea of people not believing you, and of doubting your own memories and all those things. It’s such a big deal. Over the decades I’ve been publishing, people will say, “Why do you write for teenagers?” And I’m like, “They’re not taken seriously.” So as a woman in this society, I can tell you that I have a lot in common with teenagers. I’m a woman. The story then goes on, her mother is in these tubes in the house. You nailed it. You can be at a table, and we know that we’re somehow not part of this family. And yet, we made this family. And we’re not welcome. I always felt unwelcome, I guess is a good way to put it. Women help other people before we help ourselves Amy: I was told so many things about how unlovable I was. And a lot of the lines said to Jane are verbatim, actually five of my journals. You’re so impossible to love. I think it’s important that we put it right out in the open. Because again, once I start talking about it, the amount of people that are like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me,” And it’s kind of wild, and it’s time to talk about it. But then I also think the tubes represent the thing that women do when we are in strife. We usually help other people. We help other people before we help ourselves. At least I know that’s true for me, and probably true for most of the women I know. But more importantly, we can take a prison and turn it into some kind of a win. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Take a controlled environment, and we can make a win out of it as long as we work together. Women are the most willing caretakers of the patriarchy. Anne: Yeah, without us, it wouldn’t even exist. Amy: Correct, if we didn’t follow all the rules and if we weren’t pitted against each other. If we weren’t, trying to win the popularity contest at our places of choice, whether that be a church, just the neighborhood, in the family. I remember that at one point in my family, we have a few cousins and siblings. And I remember one of them going, “Well, you know, I did this first, I got married first.” What is that about? I got married first. What is it? Upholding an opressive system with counter parenting Amy: What is, I have to have the baby first? I remember someone saying, “She kind of pressured me because she had to have a baby, right then.” And I’m like, why? But this is all patriarchy, this is all controlled. They have us pitted, and it’s the exact same. We have a larger model in the country of pitting. You pit people who are at the bottom against each other, and you can do whatever you want at the top. And that’s what we’re talking about inside a house and inside a culture. Anne: I think it’s important to point out that people back women into this corner. I really believe they’re trying to survive. And because they don’t know of any other way to survive, they don’t have the words for it. They don’t have the way to process the abuse and counter parenting. They are trying to succeed in the best way in the environment they are aware of. So it’s not like they’re not on their own side. It’s just that because they’re living in a house of mirrors or tubes or whatever metaphor we wanna use. Like, “I’m gonna be the best brownie maker here.” Because that’s the only world they have. So they uphold what they don’t know is a system oppressing them, but at least they are trying to succeed in that space. So giving women credit for how powerful and ingenious they are when they don’t know what’s going on, I think, is important. Because once they hopefully can wrap their heads around what is actually happening, I think that helps them say, whoa. whoa, whoa. If you need support from other women who have been through it, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. Interpreting the book Anne: What I’ve been doing actually has not been for me, I’ve been exploited. And dealt with counter parenting. I love the quote from Maya Angelou, where she says, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’m a woman. Why would I not be on my own side?” I’m paraphrasing. I wanna talk about the symbolism of this Victorian home, because that was interesting to me. The juxtaposition between a Victorian home and all this Victorian furniture representing the past, I’m guessing. That’s another thing I love about literature. Even though you’re the author, I could have my own interpretation. Amy: That is the whole point. Once it leaves my desk, it’s up to you. And that is, you have to let go of the ownership. I actually just did a commencement speech at an art school on Friday, and I said, “What a relief. Once it’s on someone else’s wall, it’s not your business anymore.” They may say, “Oh, I’d love this painting of raindrops.” And it’s absolutely about the worst night of your life, but you can’t tell them that. They think it’s raindrops, who cares? But you’re right, it’s open interpretation. Anne: I did wanna talk to you about this part ’cause I had interpreted it this way and I’m very anxious and curious to hear what your thoughts are. But representing the past and this mother, whose vocation is rock star. She is popular culture. She’s a feminist. She fights against oppression, living every day. So this juxtaposition of this woman who is, I guess to the masses, someone who, and I’m seeing this in you a little bit. That this is, because you were kind of living this life. Juxtaposition of rock star and victorian home Anne: Where you’re talking about feminism and trying to help women out while you’re living in an abusive relationship, but you didn’t know that you were. So I can definitely see the parallels there. But just having talked to you, I was like… Amy: Well, I don’t mind. Anne: Oh my word. I can see all this. But that was so fascinating to me, that juxtaposition between this woman who’s a rock star, who’s living in this Victorian home, and basically siloed there and silenced. Because of counter parenting and abuse. Amy: Okay. So the first thing you have to understand, Anne, is that I am a bit of a weirdo. I write books using the surrealist method, meaning I don’t know what the book is about until I start writing. Jane, the main character, she will show me the way. And that’s how it works. I have to follow her. So when suddenly there’s a rat talking in first person, I’m like, well, I suppose we’ll figure out who this rat is. We just move forward and hope to God we know. I had an idea of who the rat was. So it’s not like I’m going into it completely blindfolded, because as you write, you figure out what the book is about. But in the case of the Victorian thing, every time I tried to open this book, I tried the opening about three or four times, maybe more. And Jane had her name pretty early. And she kept coming out with this sort of twee proper Victorian voice. I was like, what is up with this? Like, this is not my voice. Usually I’m not that voice. And then one day, I explain the world explaining the writing process to people of all ages. Counter parenting: Metaphor of the tubes Amy: And I always say, ” Use your own anger. Anger is a big one. Use your sadness too. Sure, use your happiness, use your joy, use all those things. But something was said to me about God knows something. And if you’ve read the prologue? Anne: I have. Yeah. It was so good. I loved it. Amy: You’ll understand that, God knows, is a punch in the teeth. Because when you have someone say to you, who has no business saying what God knows. I’m sorry, regardless of my religion or any of that, like, God is a large, beautiful, wonderful, universal thing. No, you won’t, get that word outta your mouth. And so, I was angry, and I wrote four really bad poems. Then I was like, Ooh, and open up the file and just went. And that’s when Jane started. That’s when that formed. But more importantly. I could see Vernon, Jane’s father, in my mind’s eye, and I could see him with a pocket watch. He’s a fake, he’s a phony. And the mother inherited the Victorian house. And so it’s her family home and the tubes were already in it, you see? Because a generation before her, that man controlled his wife in that home. And then after he died, she got to hang out in that house with that woman. Never thinking she would be put into the tubes. And actually, that’s one of the things that Jane realizes too, at 16, oh crap, I’m next. So really it’s those tubes are a metaphor for so many things in counter parenting. everything was perfect from the outside Amy: It really is being a woman trapped in the patriarchy. But I chose Victorian because it seemed perfect. It’s a perfect place to hide bad habits, because it’s so luscious. It’s got velvet curtains, beautiful style, big roomy rooms and high ceilings, and everything’s so proper. They serve dinner at the dining table, and they have a cook. It’s all these things that are so proper. It seemed the perfect setting. And doesn’t it from the outside? Always, The amount of people that have said to me, but I thought everything was perfect. Yes, that’s because I was covering and trying so hard. But no, it wasn’t perfect. And there’s that second home movie. Where he’s being so overly, we’re just gonna use the word love bombing. Because listeners will know what that means, but he is just being so overly like saccharine and sugary and laying it on so thick. And Jane, the narrator, has to say, you may think this man in this scene is taking place a hundred years ago. But actually, Mina’s in a pair of ripped up jeans and a ripped up t-shirt. It’s just this interesting way that he acts to hide everything, including himself. Anne: I loved how you portrayed him as shorter. And I did not get the impression he was like crazy attractive. I liked that about it. To me, it really spoke to how sneaky they are, I wanna say, they seem like such good, ordinary people. And that I found very compelling. Amy: That’s the point. I’m glad that came through the counter parenting. That makes me happy to hear. Finding all the Lies Amy: Because that is again, we go back to those home movies, we go back to this young woman who’s 16 and everything, she believes. And when in the home movies, she also shows how terrible she was based on this influence. So she treated her mom like garbage a lot. And she feels terrible for it, but at the time she thought she was absolutely doing the right thing. Because she was told, “Your mother doesn’t love you. Your mother wants to kill you. Your mother wants all these things.” And of course, she thinks, “Well screw her.” And she’s treating her in these ways, and now she’s finding it was bull all along. Anne: So it’s interesting that you describe the Victorian home as perfect. And I was, of course, layering my own experience onto what I read and how I interpret it. But in my mind, it was very dusty. There was too much stuff. Like an arrangement of dried flowers, for example. Or the curtains were just very heavy. Everything felt very oppressive to me. ‘Cause as I read it, I was getting kind of anxiety every time it was described. I just thought, oh, this place is stifling and suffocating. Amy: That’s perfect. It’s still decorated in Victorian, except I see the kitchen as modern in my head. I think it’s a perfect juxtaposition with this large plexiglass tube in the corner. And the fact that there’s a woman in there. And if you really think about what that represents, especially in Jane’s world. Where, she for years looked over there and was so angry at this woman. Because of all these lies she was told about her. counter parenting: Children and divorce Amy: Then when she realizes she’s been lied to, then she’s terrified she’s gonna be the next person. I think that is a metaphor that spans many different types of fears that happen inside of young people’s heads when they’re in that space. I just got off of a different interview, and I was talking about this moment. My son came home one time and talked about what it’s like to be children of divorced parents. And then he said, “Well, then there’s the other group.” And I’m like, oh, “What’s the other group?” He said, “Children of parents who should be divorced.” And he goes, “I remember being in that group, and I’m glad I’m in this group now.” He was probably 14 or so when he said that, he is like, “’cause that group is sadder. They’re more scared. They’re in a space where everything’s still some kind of limbo. At least here there’s been some type of closure.” It’s quite a powerful conversation to have with a young person who’s that self-aware. And also that aware of their surroundings and counter parenting. I know there’s obviously children of fantastic families, that everything’s functioning correctly. I don’t wanna only categorize the two, but that’s how he did. And teenagers often go very black and white. And that’s what he said. I found it interesting that they truly have these conversations. Gen Z is so smart. And they are very aware. Children are incredibly resilient. The biggest fear I had once I had children was, children have to have two parents. And that’s what I was told many times. That this is the way it works. A child needs one solid parent Amy: And then more than one person has said to me, no, no, a child needs one solid parent. And they’re gonna be okay. Hearing that over and over again, and knowing that I’m solid. I’m not here looking to have relationships right now. I have to parent, that is my job. Anne: In that way, I didn’t think of it until you were just describing this, but that Victorian setting also kind of represents a level of maturity that a child can gain from this environment. Amy: Oh yes, the parentification, absolutely. Anne: It’s like an old wisdom that they’ll have, wisdom beyond their years, that kind of a thing. Amy: Yep, and not the kind you want them to have, but it’s sadly what they get. Both my kids, wise beyond their years. Because, part of their childhood never happened. Because they were so busy listening for footfalls and whether they were angry, footfalls. Whether they were sneaky counter parenting footfalls, they were so busy trying to figure out, is this person walking up or down the steps? Going to do something erratic? And on the other side, looking at mom being like, what’s gonna be her excuse today? And it sounds harsh, I know that, but it’s also very real. Kids are honest. As much we peg them as liars, same as women. We go back to what I have in common with teenagers. In actual fact, I think that everyone’s closest to the truth. Outta the mouth, the babes we say. I remember the first time I sat the kids down and said, “There’s gonna be a separation.” We need to give children credit Amy: And my eldest said, “Oh God, I’ve been waiting for this since I was seven.” And I just thought, “Oh my gosh, take note of that. Take note of the guts it took to say that out loud, at that time.” Which have been considered inappropriate, but not really. This is, however old she was at the time, 13-year-old or something. So the first thing I think we have to discuss when it comes to young people is that A, we don’t give them a lot of credit. It’s one of the reasons I’m a fierce advocate for teenagers. With counter parenting going on. We take things away from them versus giving them credit. But more importantly, we would have maybe taken a comment like that out of context and said, classic dramatic thing for a teenager to say. But in actual fact, she was serious. She saw things since she was seven that made her go, this isn’t cool. She was getting pulled aside and having things said to her about me, but I didn’t know that then. And I don’t know what else. When you’re in it, you can’t figure out what to do, especially because it is so confusing. You’re so confused, mostly because this person is looking at you, saying, no, I really am that guy that I was. And then it acts differently, or I really do love you, but then does something fiercely not loving. So it’s just constant confusion, because you’re trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense. And the reason it doesn’t make sense is because they’re lies. That’s why, because you’re being lied to. Anne: A hundred percent. counter parenting with secrets Amy: It’s kind of amazing when we look at children and how unbelievably mature they are. And that Victorian setting and what eventually we learn happens to the little brother. I haven’t mentioned Henry yet. Since we have listeners who have not read this book, little brothers named Henry. He’s a few years younger than Jane. And Henry, because it’s Victorian times. He’s treated well because he’s a boy, isn’t he? And he’s Vernon’s boy, but he is not given the secrets. So this is another part of what we’re talking about when it comes to counter parenting. We’ve got the parent who’s in control of the family. Who’s like, “I’ll let you in on a secret.” So that’s where the lies come to. “Let me tell you about your mother. Lemme tell you about this stuff, or these stories.” But more importantly, they’re let in on things that they shouldn’t be let in on too early. So whether it be, Hey, have a sip of my beer. Or do you wanna toke off this joint, or do you wanna try cigarettes or whatever it is. I don’t have another word for it, that’s just grooming. That happens so often in families like ours. Where it’s just, grooming is to get control period, that’s the point. It’s not there to get someone to think for themselves. Because an author for young people whose books have been banned. that word is thrown at me, and I’m like, “Listen, I write the book to help kids see themselves in books.” That’s it. And to talk about the truth. But that word is thrown at me. I’m not trying to control anybody. finding solutions Amy: But when someone tells me what my kids can read, oddly enough, that’s you trying to control somebody. And that’s what grooming is for. Henry, is, very obviously groomed by his father, and is the favorite simply because he’s a boy, but is also very openly neglected. And is a tragedy in the making really, with counter parenting. I see him doing okay once the bad influence is out of the house and away from him. But what that man did, it’s the collateral damage. It’s the stray bullet. He may be aiming at the women in the house, right? Because he hates women. We need to get down to the fact that so many men hate women. If they don’t face it, talk about it and correct it in a way that makes them somehow compatible with women. They’re gonna ruin the women that they’re with. Anne: Well, it’s bad for everyone. It’s not just bad for women. It’s really bad for them too, because that’s 50% of the population that they don’t take seriously. Amy: There’s that. And if we get into the patriarchy, the men suffer. I don’t wanna say they suffer more from it, but we’re really used to it. So women are really used to it. We’re like, “Yeah, I know my place. I know they’re gonna tell me what to do. They’re gonna take away my healthcare. I know they’re gonna do these things to try and control me.” And we tend to find great ways through. We figure out how to get around these things so that we can continue going to college. We find solutions. Handling patriarchy Amy: As people who raise whole families while also doing 12 other things. We all know we’re the problem solvers. Anne: Also from behind the scenes, we’re solving all the problems, just not getting the credit for it. Amy: Correct, I don’t wanna say we can handle the patriarchy, but we’ve lived in it so long. Men on the other hand, fare terribly from the patriarchy. The lies they’re told from the beginning of time limit them so much. I met a young man recently, and he was very distraught, upset. I said, “Hey, yo, what’s going on?” He started to cry. He said, “My father told me that I’m if I cry.” And I was like, “Well, your father was wrong. You can cry. Here’s a tissue.” Gave him a big hug. And he really couldn’t tell me what was wrong with him without putting himself down at least 20 times, just for having emotions. And I thought, he’s 30. This human being can’t process grief, which was legitimate at that moment, without hurting himself, because the men in his life and culture told him all the wrong things. Along with counter parenting. In books, I put a scene there, where boys list who they wanna kiss. And it’s a secret list. And then they run up to them and kiss ’em without permission to runaway. Now, I was kid in the seventies. This happened all the time, happened to my kids. My kids both got, same thing. Boy runs up to him, bam, kisses them. Maybe it’s a dare. This stuff comes early in life. If some second grader is running toward my child to kiss my child because he likes her, someone missed an opportunity to tell their child that’s not what happens. counter parenting: Loneliness epidemic Amy: You don’t do that. But this is what the culture is. And especially once she has your babies, you own her. She has to do what you say and act the way you want. If every five minutes what you want changes is she somehow has to keep up with that. I felt like I was tap dancing for three decades. We get these headlines about the male loneliness epidemic. Or what you believe women owe you. I’m like, no offense, but maybe if you’d stop being terrible. Anne: Yeah sorry, I can’t stand those articles. And with counter parenting, I’m like, what in the world is happening? Amy: I’d like to ask, a bunch of married women if there’s a loneliness epidemic for married women. There’s an epidemic for you. There’s been centuries of married women who are lonelier than ever. Maybe if men looked after that, maybe if that was written about. Men would go, “Oh.” But they wouldn’t, because the culture tells them to go phffft. And then women say anything. It’s all a trap, and we’re all trapped in it. Every single one of us, every woman, man, child, everybody, every person is trapped in it. It’s a construct. And this is one of the reasons I live in a little artist’s bubble. Anne: Speaking of the prologue, hit me really hard. Because the book that I’m writing is all about lies. I know I talk about how pornography is abusive but it really does, and my whole book is about this, come down to the lies. Lies on top of lies Anne: Because if they didn’t lie, then he would say, “Hi, I am only interested in you because you have this Victorian home that has these tubes, and I know that if I marry you, I can use you for all this and I can stick you in one of them. So you seem like the perfect wife for me.” Amy: Yes. Anne: “Do you wanna marry me?” That would be the truth. And then she could say, “No, I don’t.” But the whole thing is built on lies, lies on top of lies. In my book, I say this one part, “Let’s just talk about pornography without the lies. Because they lie to us about porn or their affairs or other things that they’re lying to us about. Then I’m like, wait, the whole pornography industry is a lie. There are so many layers of lies on top of lies. And without the lies, we could give consent. Some women might choose that, but so many women would be like, “I don’t want to marry you. If you have a mistress that you live with in an apartment.” Amy: Anne, I need to tell you, it was your Instagram that made me understand informed consent in such a great way. And it really changed my mind about what I’d been living through. And realizing how many women are lied to, but also having sexual relationships with people who are lying to them. Therefore, they are not informed, so that consent is null. And in the future, when they learn about the lies, all of those experiences are going to have a different flavor. Told the truth from the beginning Amy: And it will feel exactly what it felt at the time, but you couldn’t say it out loud. Anne: Right, it felt like that, but because you didn’t understand what was happening. You defined it the best way that you could. Maybe you put a silver lining on it. Maybe you explained this is how it works because you had no other way to process it. So in your processing it to empower yourself, which was your intention, it just played into the lies without you knowing. Which is so unfortunate, but that’s their intent. That’s what they want. Amy: Absolutely, the lie is everything. And that’s why the book starts with the lies. The older I get, the more I realize this. And I remember hitting my forties and going, oh, and now I’m in my fifties. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t end. Everything’s about the lies that we’re taught. And on a larger level in the culture in our families, before we get into a relationship, and then inside the relationship with counter parenting. But I love how you said if they just told the truth from the beginning, imagine they were like, look, I just wanna piss my wife off and you’re under 40. And I think that if we dated, that would work out great. And in a way, sometimes I appreciate the guys on online dating. They’re like, I’m just into fun casual dates. That’s code. And we know it. But some of them actually mean it literally, that’s the funny part. They don’t realize that there’s other men out there who don’t mean it that way. I appreciate that they can at least admit it. counter parenting: The guy you married never existed Amy: Something that my mother said to me. Her father was a severe alcoholic. He died of complications from alcoholism. He was also an abusive man. She said to me, “Amy, my father wasn’t an abuser because he was an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic because he was an abuser.” Anne: Yeah. Amy: And when you take someone who’s a truly benevolent human being. Who really just believes in the good in people, wants to have a great family, wants to be a great wife, wants to buy the Christmas gifts, and you put them with someone who is so callously lying all the time. She has to see a person she fell in love with. Always like you’re looking for the guy you married. He never existed, it wasn’t real. And that is a really hard thing to come to terms with, because you remember it. I have a bonus of having kept journals my whole life. And I always said the first year was the one good year I had. It’s packed with all these notes and love letters. And I pulled one of them out and in it, in that year one, it was me pleading for forgiveness, for having hormones. Now, I was raised in a family where three girls and my mother was a high ranking administrator in a school system. You did not use hormones as an excuse ever. And that’s not for me to take it away from people who have, definite mood swings because of hormones. The fact that’s held against us is ridiculous, ’cause look at the erratic, hormonal swings of men. But I really didn’t have those sorts of swings. Journal helps determine what really happened Amy: I can check what happened in year one. Look, it wasn’t as great as I thought it was. He was already grooming me to start blaming everything on me and all the responsibility. Also, I can see all the moves of isolation. So, that is the one thing that did get me to see what was going on . I wrote down every time anything happened that made me feel terrible, degraded me, or was abuse. And when I started keeping a log, it was very obvious what had to happen. This is why I think abusers keep you so busy. Anne: Yeah, so you can’t notice. I was gonna tell you, so my book, that I am almost done writing, I am more of a essay writer. So writing an actual 350 page book was like the worst, I have to say. I think you’re amazing. But, it’s the reason why. When you said, “I’d love someone to research.” Over the past year, I went through all of my podcast interviews again and listened to them. Like a research study. So based on all those interviews and all my experience with our clients and interacting with women over the years. I’m almost done. I really wanna get it right. Amy: And it’s good for research too. Getting it right is the thing. Anne: The whole thing including counter parenting is just about the lies. Amy: Amen, thank you. That’s great. You’ve brought to me in this podcast just today, the lies, right? No matter what, no matter how many times I go through it, or how many times I think about it, the lies that you find out about afterward are unbelievable. There are people in the world who want to use you Amy: You could have said to me, would he ever do this? I would’ve said, never in my life will he do that. What’s interesting is that he probably said, oh, well she did that, never did that. I travel for a living. I had the opportunity to cheat a million times. Never did, not like I had the opportunity. I never looked for it. I’m sort of a dork who wants to be in my hotel room by myself. And it’s cool to order room service, and then I work. That’s it, I work. So I don’t wanna do that. Most people think that other people think like they do. And one of the things I get asked, “What do you wish you knew when you were our age?” I said, “This is gonna sound heavy, but I mean it too. And you guys are teenagers, so you’re gonna get it . Here’s the deal. Everybody tells you to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, especially if you happen to be born female. You wanna give everybody the benefit of the doubt. You have to be nice, kind, sweet to everybody. And you have to accept all this behavior. And anybody who’s being rude, they just don’t mean it. Anybody who’s being mean, they just don’t mean it. They don’t know how mean they’re being. That’s not true. What’s true is that there are people in the world that want to hurt you, break you down, make you theirs, control you, lie about you, use counter parenting, and they wanna use you. The sooner you know that, the better. Because I didn’t figure that out till I was 50.” counter parenting: Nobody knew what to do Amy: And not just when it came to my romantic life, there were other people in my life who were very close to me, since I was a very young person who were doing that to me. So everything’s a lie. Why is it so hard to get help? When I finally had the guts to pick up the phone and I was 3,000 miles away from home, isolated and call the people closest to me. Whether they were family or friends, and say to them, but especially the family, this is what’s happening. This is what’s really going on. I don’t know what to do, I need help. I need to get out of here. Nobody knew what to do. Anne: Right, exactly. Amy: That’s why Mina, Jane’s mother, does what she does. She helps people because nobody knew what to do. And it was as simple as send me a plane ticket. And I didn’t know to ask that though. I didn’t know to say I need a plane ticket. I’d only just said this for the first time after seven or eight years of this. And at that point, I was so beaten down as a human being, completely didn’t even know who I was anymore. And I’m a strong, confident person, always have been in so many ways. I had no idea what to ask for, and no one knew what to offer. And if I could tell women out there, listen, the minute you’re 15 years old, this is what happens. They’re all your sisters. I don’t even care if they were the one competing with you yesterday. I don’t care if they were the one that was putting you down yesterday. We need to help other women Amy: If they say, yo, I’m in this situation. What do I do? We all learn the answer. And try and help other women out because the more I am in the world, and the more I realize that this is way more common than the other, the perfect ideal relationship is a beautiful thing. I know a few people in it, and is it the hardest work they ever did? Absolutely, man, it doesn’t come easy. But they have two adult people working toward the same thing. That is rare. That’s what I’m finding. The older I get, now that I can eat the senior meal at the diner. And I can tell you what, man, I don’t know many people who are in that situation, most are not. Anne: Yeah, I could talk to you forever. You are incredible. So I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode to talk about counter parenting. Amy: Anne, I’m always so happy to be on your side. Yeah, you’re doing great work. Thank you for what you do. Really in a huge way. And thanks for the conversation. You’re awesome, you rock. To be on this show and to be part of anyone’s journey to healing. It’s the most important thing in the world, fiction helps. Thank you

When your husband’s infidelity comes to light, the truth doesn’t just hurt, it can completely shatter your sense of reality. For many women, discovering your husband has had a secret life brings shock, confusion, and a desperate search for answers. Learning how to recover after infidelity isn’t about fixing the relationship; it’s about finding emotional safety, clarity, and courage to stop chasing explanations and start protecting your peace. How to Recover After Infidelity: Four Questions Every Betrayed Woman Asks Women who go through this generally ask four questions: If he really loved me, why did he do this? If he lied to me for so long, how do I know he’s being honest right now? How can I ever trust him again? Did I ever really know him? So if you’re trying to figure out how to recover after infidelity, Bethany’s story will help you understand what emotional safety and clarity look like when the truth feels impossible. Discover if you are a victim, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: How To Recover After Infidelity Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Bethany. Like many women who contact BTR, she didn’t just deal with his lies, she dealt with the shock of realizing that her entire reality may have been built on lies. Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. Anne: Today’s episode is about that moment of discovery, the one that changes everything. She found messages she wasn’t meant to see, and those messages exposed an entire secret life. This is her story about how to recover after infidelity. Welcome, Bethany. Bethany: Thank you. Anne: I’m so grateful that you would share your story today. So, Bethany, let’s start at the beginning. Bethany: I’m very grateful to have found Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I was searching for some sort of support and community after everything that had happened. So when we were dating, things progressed quickly within our relationship. He was successful in his work. I was successful in my work. He was charismatic, he made me laugh, he was into fitness, and that was important to him. Looking back, I may have ignored some pretty large red flags to focus on all the things I liked about him, like his personality and his physical appearance. Within the first month of dating, I could see there were a lot of highs and lows. And I focused more on the good rather than the lows. Early Discoveries and Dismissals That Pointed to Infidelity Bethany: But, about two months into dating, I started seeing text messages. He was reaching out and soliciting oral sex and other inappropriate messages. Anne: How did you find these texts ? Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work, and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. I was not religious. He denied it was anything, and I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I did end up believing him. Very quickly, we got engaged, and then we found out we were pregnant. There was more verbal abuse while I was pregnant. And ended up getting married a month later. So it was very quick. This is the person you’re giving your life to, and the one person you should trust the most. I found out that he watched pornography. He denied it. It’s extremely confusing. I didn’t know how to recover after infidelity. Then, I found out he was on same sex dating apps and reaching out pursuing men and I’m wondering, is my husband gay? He’s always been very homophobic, almost, and critical of gay people. He would get very defensive if you confronted him about it, and I don’t know what any other explanation there is. Anne: What explanation would he give? How to Recover After Infidelity When the Truth Keeps Shifting Bethany: He said there was no excuse for his actions, except that he started watching pornography early, and it became more graphic which led to being curious about other things. He denied he is gay. He said he’s disgusted by what he has done. Anne: I think the most confusing thing was that I couldn’t ever get a straight answer because the answers didn’t make sense. Because so many things seemed so, elusive. I’d try to hold onto it and I couldn’t quite. It would just disintegrate in my hands. I’ve come to believe he chose to do that. How to recover from infidelity when everything keeps shifting? Bethany: Yeah, it’s a hard realization, and you wanna try to figure out the reasons why he’s lying or the causes of sexual addiction. But he made that choice. It doesn’t make sense to me. I’m like, if something disgusts me, why would you do it? Anne: Well, it could have been that you didn’t wanna try it, but peer pressure or coercion. Women do things they don’t wanna do all the time due to coercion. So many women have sex when they don’t wanna have sex, due to coercion. I’ve never wanted to smoke cigarettes, so it’s never been difficult for me to not smoke cigarettes. Because no one was coercing him to look at gay pornography. People generally, from my experience, don’t look at gay pornography unless they want to. Bethany: Exactly, at the end of the day, it was something you desired and wanted to do and chose. I think lying definitely was one of the hardest things, because when there are secrets, it’s hard to go from there. How do you trust someone after that? When Faith Communities Don’t Understand: How to Recover After Infideltiy Bethany: I first turned to the church, to my pastor, and she had me put together a list of boundaries. So I put it together all in writing. Because I believed God can work if you take that step and let the Holy Spirit lead you. I did one COSA meeting, I felt like it was blaming me. Then like I started to feel like I was codependent and that’s why all of this happened. We did a marriage intensive. Anne: For sex addiction? Bethany: Yes, emotional intimacy and sex addiction. Because I feel like that is the first place you look when you’re trying to work with someone. I told my story within counseling and the church support groups. It brought on a whole different level of confusion and hurt. It was just, like distorted reality. Almost like I go out and have fun, and then pretend like it didn’t happen. I wasn’t facing the issue. I didn’t want to believe it. So I believed what he said, and then it just escalated to the point where I had no other choice. I had to get to the truth and learn how to recover after infidelity. I was at work. He lost his job. It was over the weekend, and my husband is on phone all the time. And we have a baby. We were all spending time with the baby, having a family day, and went to bed that night. I find out he was, on his phone again, messaging on different dating apps. It was really traumatizing to see how many people that there were. And then there were explicit videos and messages. He had someone in our house with our children there Bethany: And how I came to find that I was on my five-year-old’s iPad and a location share came up. I recognized the name from early on in our relationship. It was a man and I asked him about it and he got very aggressive and upset. So I find out that he had this individual over while I was at work. I think I didn’t really know how to feel in that moment. I went through all of the stages of trauma and grief in terms of numbing and isolating. It was just gut wrenching to think about the fact that he was messaging these things and asking someone to come over to our home with our children there. It added a whole other layer to my confusion. The person I loved and committed my life to has a secret life that you don’t know about. So I don’t know who this person is, and I’ve been sharing my life with a complete stranger. And there’s a lot of fear with that. I was searching for more specific support from someone who had already been through it, other people that you can relate to. I came across BTR. And I was like wow, this is really, really helpful. I started listening to the podcast, and the resources made available through BTR helped me navigate that next step in learning how to recover after infidelity. Your betrayal trauma support group gave me live support. The BTR resources I’ve used a lot considering where do I go from here? I’ve been looking at how to tell if your husband will change. And I’m still using that, because the signs of changing, you have to see consistently over time. It’s not something you can tell him to do. Safety is the most important thing Bethany: You said in there, don’t do it. So I didn’t, ’cause I wanted to know for myself if he was going to change. I utilize It as a guideline to determine if I’m going to stay in this relationship or what’s my exit strategy. I’m still evaluating. We separated, I first turned to my best friend, and she stayed with me. And then my mom flew in and stayed with me. Anne: That’s exactly what to do because observing and just watching, you’ll always know the truth and that’s the safest place to be. Bethany: Following the BTR podcast, hearing other people’s stories brought me additional comfort. And learning from those too. Cause I feel like it acknowledges the pain it caused, and being honest about the effects and consequences of the other’s actions. I think forgiving just means you’re doing it for yourself, and that the person owing the debt still owes that debt. Anne: Yeah, they do. I think they sometimes don’t realize that part. Just because you forgive the debt doesn’t mean they still don’t owe it. Bethany: Right, knowing other people have been through this same thing. And they’ve been able to leave, or move on, or whatever stage they’re in their process. Anne: Whatever is the right thing for them to do. Because at BTR, safety is the most important thing, and everyone defines that in different ways. When you are figuring out how to heal after infidelity, I do feel like wives, for the most part, feel like keeping their marriage intact is the safest option, especially when you have kids. Telling your story will help others Anne: So because you’re navigating a safety issue, what’s going to bring me the most safety is the better question. Has that been part of your process? Because that was for me. Divorce felt unsafe to me. And so that’s why I didn’t end up filing for divorce. Divorce seemed like the least safe thing of all my options. Bethany: Yeah, especially with children, I think, and even if you don’t have children. Because you don’t want that to be the reason, you have to evaluate what is truly the safest, you know? I think just going back to each person’s situation will be different. But, I wanted other people to know if they have similar situations, that there are other people. you giving me this opportunity to share my story. It’s helped me so much to do this. And to talk with you and have this BTR platform. I hope it helps. Anne: Yes, your story will. It will for sure help somebody.

Have you caught yourself thinking, my husband is ignoring me and feeling that knot in your stomach when the silence drags on? You’re not making it up. Silence can be its own form of punishment, leaving you anxious, second-guessing, and desperate to fix things. In today’s episode, Mary shares how her husband used ignoring as a weapon, vanishing for weeks, shutting her out after their honeymoon, and withholding attention to stay in control. If you’ve felt the sting of silence, this conversation will help you see what’s really going on.To see what types of emotional abuse you also experienced, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 3 Reasons Why Trying To Connect With Your Husband If He’s Ignoring You Doesn’t Work 1. Silence isn’t a misunderstanding. It’s a tactic. When he withholds attention, it’s not an accident. Ignoring someone is often used to punish or control someone. 2. vulnerability gives him new tools to use against you. If advise you to open up more to him to try to get him to talk, that’s going to put you in more emotional danger. 3. your connection can’t solve his accountability problem. No amount of extra effort, patience, tenderness on your part is going to solve his accountability problem. There’s nothing you can do to undo the choices he’s making. If he’s ignoring you, that’s entirely his problem. At BTR, we know how long, lonely, and painful the road to healing can be. Don’t travel this road alone. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: My Husband is Ignoring Me Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mary. A large part of her story is that her husband ignored her, and I know a lot of you are dealing with that. A lot of times we feel like we need to repair something. If someone ignores us because they’re upset with us. Here’s a part of Mary’s story, and you’ll hear the context of what happened around this a bit later. Mary: I thought, why is my husband ignoring me? I didn’t know what was going on, and I spent the whole time crying in another room. Thinking, this is tragic. I thought our marriage would be something kind and loving, but it wasn’t. Anne: So Mary, I’m so sorry that ignoring you was such a big part of your story. Welcome. Mary: Hi, Thanks for having me. Anne: I’m so honored and grateful that you would share your story. So let’s start at the beginning. Mary: I met my now ex-husband of 10 years at church. He was so godly. He was very exciting, had amazing stories. And he had this great contagious laugh. He was great around people, or so I thought.He is just checking all the boxes. Eventually, we started dating. In this church culture, there were many rules around intimacy. No sex before marriage. You could maybe hold hands, go on your date once a week, very structured and not very natural. Anne: How old were you at the time? Mary: I had just finished my master’s, so I was 26 or 27. We dated for one year, and on the anniversary of that year, he proposed. Dating Red Flags: Why My Husband Ignoring Me Isn’t Just Stress Mary: But during the dating relationship, there were so many red flags that I didn’t know were red flags. I had no context for that. It was easy to make excuses, because he’s this great guy, spiritual, loving, thoughtful, serves at the church and always takes care of other people. And I didn’t know that was just a facade. During that time, a lot of strange things would happen. I remember one time he just disappeared for a couple weeks. I was wrought with anxiety and worry, and I had no idea. Nobody had heard from him. We were in this tight-knit community. Everybody knew everybody’s business. Nobody knew where he was. Anne: Wow, that’s like intense. Mary: I tried reaching out, texting, calling, there was no response. I was trying to not overdo it. I don’t know about your experience with church culture and other people’s. But for me, you had to have this kind of privacy and respect for the other person, and not overdo it. Because then you idolized them. Eventually, he sent me a picture of his face with a black eye, and tells me this outrageous story about him and his brother getting into a brawl, and somehow he was the good guy trying to help direct his life. He’s the oldest of six. They were refugees from communist Russia with this intense life. And he raised all of them, basically a parent to them.Anyway, I had had it, I had gone through all the emotions at this point. I was like, this guy doesn’t seem to care. I had gotten to a place where I was like, I’m not doing this, because I don’t wanna be involved with someone like this. The Mask Slips: What It Really Means When My Husband Is Ignoring Me Mary: But somehow he said all the right things and got me back in, begged me, gimme just one more chance. And I thought, I guess that’s a good sign. I didn’t know what to make of this. So I forgave him, and within a month or two, he proposed. Looking back, I realized he saw how close he was to losing control of me. And so he had to do something to lock it down. I was starting to feel that church pressure of, well, you’re getting kind of old and you’re gonna have family, you’re gonna get married, you gotta do it soon. I still believed this is a good guy. He’s just having a hard time. It’s easy to excuse what we think are blips in their behavior. When I think they take a mask off for a moment. ‘Cause they’re tired of pretending. And then you see the real them, thinking it’s the other way around. Anne: Right, I have an interesting story I’ve never told before. I was dating a guy who was an abuser, and I didn’t know he was an abuser. And he was getting closer to maybe being serious, and suddenly, he just fell off the map, kind of what you’re saying. Couldn’t get a hold of him, like nothing. He then reached out to me and said, “I’m back. I’m ready to move forward with our relationship. I just needed some time to think about it. I need to talk to our ecclesiastical leader to clear some things up, and then we can move forward.” Like you, I was ready to move on by the time he came back. WHeN He takes a Sudden break In The Relationship Anne: It was weird to me that he didn’t ask me how I was doing at all. It was like, I’m ready to move forward with you, so I’m gonna do this. And then we’ll move forward without asking me anything. So it turns out that while he was “taking that break to assess what he wanted out of his future.” He had gone and lived with a woman for three weeks and had sex with her a ton, and then realized he didn’t wanna marry her. He wanted to marry me. So our church excommunicated him. And came to me and said, “Okay, I got excommunicated, but I’m ready to move forward.” And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m never talking to you again. We’re not dating. This pattern that he thinks he can do what he wants, and that you’re not gonna notice? Because during that time when they’re gone, they don’t think about us. They’re distracted doing the thing they wanna do. They’re not thinking how it affects us. They have such a lack of understanding that we are going through something during those times. Mary: Yes, they are self-centered. In fact, we went to premarital counseling. The husband of the couple that was counseling us pulled me aside and in confidence said, “Hey, just so you know, while you were dating, he confessed to me about how he had gone to a bar one night and did some very questionable things with another woman. And I’m just trying to get him to confess it so that you and him both know that he did it.” I was shocked. At this point, my future husband is ignoring me and keeping secrets. Anne: What? He doesn’t confess anything Mary: He never did confess it. He just acted like he had no idea. And so I thought, well, what’s the truth then? Did he actually do something? He seems innocent and has no clue. So we married. And the moment we leave the wedding reception and drive off to our honeymoon, that whole week we were gone, we fought. Oh my goodness. I didn’t even recognize this person. We slept in separate rooms. I cried every night, and when we got home from the honeymoon, he just ignored me. It was like I was invisible. I wasn’t even in the home as far as he was concerned. There was no consideration, no conversation, and I was devastated. Anne: Wow. Mary: So I am on the internet Googling annulment, and anything I can think of, what is this behavior? I don’t know why my husband is ignoring me. I couldn’t find any answers. So I finally called up his mentor in the church, one of his best friends. I just left a voicemail and said, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. I don’t know what to do. Can you talk to him?” I never heard from this friend of his, but the next day, he finally acknowledges me. He is on his knees begging me to forgive him, but I didn’t know what for. To this day, I still have no idea what he was doing for those months. Anne: Wow. Mary: The strange part is that, probably for the next two years, it was the most blissful marriage. We were partners, we talked about things, we were able to be connected. And I thought, oh, this is amazing. From Bliss To Fear: My Husband Is Ignoring Me As Punishment Mary: And so one day, he says to me out of the blue that he’s tired of pulling the weight of this marriage. He is not doing it anymore. And that, if I want this marriage to work, I have to do all the work. I thought, when did he start feeling this way? I still don’t know what made him suddenly decide that I’m just this terrible wife. It just went on like this over the years. Every so often he would throw me these curve balls and major ones like that. He would ignore me to get what he wanted. I was working and trying to rise up in my career. And he had complete control over all my paychecks. I couldn’t touch them. Everything I had, he took. At some point, I decided I just needed a secret stash. Like I need to have a couple hundred dollars tucked away in case I need gas for the car. He caught whiff of it and became obsessed with finding it. One day I came home, and he had dumped all the contents of my closet all over the living room. He was becoming more and more unstable and erratic. And he starts, telling me, oh, you should be ashamed of yourself. At this point, I’m thinking, what am I not doing right? The whole mental load of running the home is on me. Like I do everything. And so at the time I’m just thinking, I just have to show him. I just have to work harder, be more submissive, more gentle with him. My Husband terrifies me Mary: He’s depressed, so maybe I need to make doctor’s appointments for him. As the years went by it only got worse. He prided himself on the fact that he never hit me, but he was battering me emotionally. He’s like, “I’ve never hurt her” whenever I would bring it up with church counseling. Things started escalating when my body could no longer tolerate this behavior. I was so stressed trying to make this work, trying to understand. We actually went to marital counseling. The very first session, he stars berating the therapist, questioning her authority. I think we went maybe twice. All it did was fan the flames of his anger. Three or four years into the marriage, we started meeting with another couple in the church that felt more like peers. Every Sunday night, we would have dinner with this family. At one point, I confided in them. Hey, there is a problem here with alcohol. He’s going through a whole bottle of liquor in 24 hours. This is scary, he’s not well. And they both say we’re not going to bring it up until you’re ready. So what happened? The very next session, the husband brings up my ex-husband’s alcohol use. And confronts him with the details no one is supposed to know. At the session with them in their home, my husband was very agreeable, humble, apologetic. “Yeah, I really need help. Thank you so much.” We get in the car to go home. My husband is upset with me for talking about him behind his back, sharing his dirty little secret. Well, he drives past our home and goes off to this dark isolated riverbank. I was terrified. When My Husband is Ignoring Me Escalates From Silence To Threats Mary: Yeah, he’s never laid a hand on me. But what if tonight’s the night? He’s so mad, and he had this evil, horrible presence. I thought he could actually kill me. It was so scary. I froze in fear. At one point, he just turned home, and I knew better than to say a word. I was just silent and hoping I wouldn’t ignite it or make it worse. That presence that I felt in him that day was terrifying. I didn’t think it could escalate, but it did. It got to where he was punishing me. Like, “You need to sit in the corner on your knees as punishment until I say.” Or he would jokingly put his hands around my neck. Really, these are veiled threats. Anne: Even not so veiled threats. They’re overt threats with a smile on his face. Mary: That’s right. It got to the point where he was leaving his handgun laying around. It would just be laying around. With the way his behavior was lining up with a gun in our house, that was scary for me. Plus, I live where I have no family. I felt isolated. I called up a friend and said, “What do I do?” And her advice was, “Why don’t you take a weekend, pack a little bag. Take some time and think it through without his presence weighing on you?” I said, “Oh, that’s a great idea.” But even then, I was so scared to leave, because what would he do if I left? So I went and stayed with some mutual friends. He destroys my wedding dress and vandalizes my car Mary: And I remember him calling around, threatening all of our acquaintances and friends. So people were finally starting to see some of what I was dealing with. They told me, “We can’t have you here anymore, so we will relocate you an hour away.” I had tried to go back to get more of my things. He had changed the locks on the house. So, I ended up breaking into my own home to get my things. I found my wedding dress ripped to shreds, our wedding pictures smashed all over the floor with divorce papers, his wedding ring, and the gun all piled up. Anne: It changed from my husband is ignoring me to fear tactics. You just said divorce papers. Mary: Blank divorce papers. Anne: So he got blank divorce papers and staged them in your house. Mary: Yes, as a threat, or a way to scare me. So I go onto the third location, and I’m at my friend’s house with my car. The title was in my name, as was our home. I bought one of those steering wheel clubs to lock the car. He didn’t have a key to the club, but he had a key to the car. That night, he came over to get the car, and he couldn’t take it. So he pulled out a four inch knife systematically, calmly, slashing all my tires. That was so scary, I got a restraining order. I have this restraining order, and I’m working with the elders of the church and with different mentors, peers, friends. And a lot of the advice is that you just need to focus on your own spirituality. Church Culture Missed The Danger, But God Didn’t Mary: So I’m thinking, all I know is that I made a vow to this man before God. I couldn’t imagine standing before God, on judgment day, trying to explain myself, why did I rip up my marriage? Because I still couldn’t see that my husband is ignoring me as abuse, after all that. I spent about a year separated from him, trying to save my marriage. Anne: So you’re wondering why is my husband doing this, and no one you talk to is saying this is clearly abuse as well? Mary: Nobody spelled it out that way. Anne: People rarely, if ever look you straight in the face and say, you are in danger. This is abuse. Mary: Over the course of that year of that restraining order, there were provisions on it. He could email me about our bills, financial things we had to keep in order, and each time he as behaved more in line with what I needed, I would become more lax. At one point. I dropped it because he had started behaving so angelically. I’m so sad for myself at that point. If I had only known. But we get back together and have a child, so by then it had been eight years of marriage. And we’re living in that same home, and he still has this drinking problem. And he would just do things that were really scary. I eventually got to the point where I remember being on my knees, begging, God, can you please just take him out of my life? Can you please do something? If you’re not willing to do that, at least give him a DUI so that he stops driving drunk and possibly hurting other people. Therapist finally Confirms My Husband Ignoring Me, Is abuse Mary: I kid you not. I get a call at 3:00 AM from the jail, him crying, saying he’d been arrested for a DUI. I couldn’t believe it. And I thought in that moment, God has my back. He really does. And I can get outta this, but it wasn’t until my daughter was almost two years old, when the final straw happened. She was crying, she called out Mama over and over, and he shut her in the room, locked the door and wouldn’t let me go in. I remember just putting my head on the doorframe, realizing this is never going to get better. If I can’t even have connection with my child, what am I doing here? So I called up my therapist and I said, is this abuse? Is this domestic violence? Anne: So from the time you think my husband is ignoring me to now, how long had you been going to therapy, until you thought can my husband change? Mary: For maybe six years. Anne: I’m just shocked. You realize how insane that is. You’ve told the therapist all of these stories. Mary: So, she says, “Yes. It’s the worst case in my career I’ve ever seen.” Anne: This is why I don’t recommend therapy. It’s not that this therapist is a bad person or anything, but you’ve been going to her for six years. At this point, she says it’s the worst case she’s ever seen. Instead of telling you, you don’t need therapy, he’s an abuser. So I am not gonna see you anymore. You do need to go to the domestic violence shelter, though, because there’s nothing wrong with you other than being abused. That would’ve been the appropriate thing to tell you. You don’t need therapy, but you do need safety. So many miracles happened Mary: Absolutely, I got all my ducks in a row. I started going to centers that help abused women. I got a grant where they paid for me to get a mover and a truck. The day I was going to leave, I got a call from a domestic violence fatality specialist. She says, “Hey, I heard your story, this one bedroom apartment just opened. It’s not even cleaned yet. They’re still moving out, but it’s yours if you want it.” They let me stay for two years, and while I was there, I got my career going again, started saving money, figured out babysitting, finalized the divorce, the whole nine yards. There are so many miracles that no one can convince me that God wasn’t helping me. And what I finally realized was God would never want someone’s safety and wellbeing and their mental clarity compromised. I matters to God. Once I figured that out, I thought, ” I don’t owe anybody anything. I need to be safe.” Anne: I’m so glad you had those resources available to you. The social safety net is so important. I had somebody ask me, if you could wave a magic wand, and be like, what could stop domestic violence? The two things are healthcare available for everyone and childcare available for everyone. Because women can’t get a job that would pay for childcare. And so then you’re just stuck. And also, so many women who are abused have serious health problems and need insurance. They can’t pay for insurance because they have their health problems. Mary: I know. There were so many things that pointed toward him being the problem. After I left, I could see that more clearly. My husband is ignoring me: Manipulation & mind games Anne: Originally the issue was your husband is ignoring you. Talk about what you noticed once you could observe him from a safe distance. How did your mind start to clear? Mary: Once I got my own place, I could see much more clearly these games that he’d been playing, and that gave me a little more power and autonomy over my own actions, decisions, and thoughts. I knew I could go ahead and move on with my life. And he’s gonna make a fuss and act out and say all these things, but probably nothing will come of it. Anne: To manipulate us, they know that we need to believe them and pay attention. In the Living Free Workshop, I teach safety strategies to help women perceive what he’s doing differently, so that they can create space in their own minds. If they can’t create any physical space at that time, or if they don’t want to create physical space. Some women don’t want to get divorced. I felt that way, and you felt that way. So we totally understand. Especially when the institutions around us, like therapy and clergy, didn’t give you the right information. I think that is so insane that our society is set up so that an abuse victim who doesn’t understand that she’s being abused can actively go to get help and still not understand that she’s being abused for years. Because of the institutions and the way they respond to abuse. Most of the time, they don’t know it’s abuse either. Mary: A friend of mine who’s a licensed clinical social worker recommended your podcast to me. Strength from other’s stories Mary: As I listened to your podcast, I started looking forward to this validation that this guy is in his own class of special. And there are a bunch of guys out there that do this to women like me. I would sit there with my headphones on my breaks at work and try to cram in as much as possible, because I knew this is giving me strength to keep healing after the fact. Anne: I’m so glad. You sound incredible, smart, capable and successful, and you’re a good mom. I’m grateful for women like you who share their story. It still makes me feel better after all these years. Because your story sounds like mine. The details are different, but the pattern is the same, and it is so validating. It’s nice to be part of a sisterhood of incredible strong women who are smart, who were manipulated, and it’s no fault of our own. Maybe they relate to you and how your husband is ignoring you at first. You’ve mentioned God a few times, and then I also hear your hesitation about the church, which makes complete sense. I’ve been in that exact same space where, you know God is coming through for you, but the institution itself, at least in this case, was very damaging. Mary: I would say that with the church I was attending for about 20 years, their involvement in my situation was horrifyingly, hands off. There were members here and there, who I could trust and talk to. When I would go to the elders, they wanted to sit down with him and I together and talk about what was going on. They don’t know what to do when my husband is ignoring me. Not addressing the underlying issue of abuse Mary: Looking back, that is not helpful at all, because I’m just getting re-traumatized, re-abused with them, seeing it or him gaslighting, everybody. in these therapy sessions with elders, they’re all seeing a different side of him. The side of him that I initially thought I had fallen in love with. Nobody’s really addressing the underlying issue of abuse. Anne: They should never ever pull him in to talk to him about it. Even if the victim wants them to. if they understood abuse, they would say, that’ll actually put you in more danger. Which is why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. Any confronting him whatsoever about his behavior will not help you see what he is like. Letting women know that going to therapy or clergy can go bad, ’cause they can abuse you worse overtly, or covertly. Meaning they can groom a lot better, and that gives them the opportunity to do that. And that’s the most dangerous, is when they can hide their true nature. Mary: A hundred percent agree. The grooming is scary because it’s so easy to be blinded to it, and it’s not just the victim, it’s everyone around too. Anne: For any woman listening, maybe this is their first podcast they’ve ever listened to, and maybe they’re wondering like, is it abuse? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? What would you say to them from my husband is ignoring me to other abuses, and what you’ve been through? Mary: What I would say is when somebody shows you, their true colors, believe them. When they make you feel anxious, stressed out, and then blame you. My husband is ignoring me turned into Post separation abuse Mary: If you feel uncomfortable or ask yourself, why is this marriage or this relationship so hard? Your marriage is probably involving somebody who’s abusive. Honestly, listening to this podcast helped me sort through many uncertainties. By the time I found this podcast, everything I had been through made so much more sense. From my husband is ignoring me to overt abuse. I think if there’s any confusion about your situation, don’t brush it off. Listen to your instincts. If you’re not comfortable, your body’s not comfortable, there’s a reason, and it’s probably not you. Anne: Can you talk about post-separation abuse and the stuff you had to deal with since you separated and divorced. Mary: Oh man, it’s been tough, honestly, having any communication at any point. It’s almost as bad as when we were in our 10 year marriage. We are seven years post-divorce. He’s pretty manic and depressive at times, and demanding. I went through the Living Free Workshop, and I got to this one section and it talked about my brain. There’s this image of your brain filled with all this abuse, taking up so much space in your life and your thoughts, and you feel so squeezed out. And the visual is so clearly depicted, showing what it’s like to be the victim. There’s no room for you. There’s no space for your own thoughts or desires. It’s all about catering to this unstable person who is controlling your life. That was when I thought, this is going to be a good workshop because Anne gets it. It’s like walking through it with a good friend who understands what they’re gonna say, how they’re gonna react, why they’re doing it, what their goal is. Your Eyes are opened to their games Mary: When I got to the end of the workshop, I had to respond to something from him that was super coercive and controlling. I thought, oh, perfect. I’m gonna finish these last few lessons in this workshop. And I’m gonna figure out how to respond and see if this works. I implemented those strategies, and I didn’t get any lip back, I got no punishment. I thought, this is exactly what I needed all these years. And I wish I had found this sooner. I thought, oh my goodness, this is what women need to know Anne: I wanna talk about that, because many people might perceive there’s something you can do to improve your situation. Even when my husband is ignoring me. I wanna make it clear that you’re not changing him in any way. What the Living Free Strategies enable women to do is see him for who he is, predict what he will do. Mary: Absolutely, I think what you’re saying is spot on. It’s almost like your eyes are opened to what their game is, and now you have the rules. So now you’ve got a playbook. And it’s just a different type of strategy that feels counterintuitive. None of their communication is based on actually trying to solve anything. They just want the dopamine hit of confusing you and making you struggle. To communicate more strategically puts the power back in my court. Anne: I’ve mentored so many women through that divorce process using these strategies. After doing the workshop, their messages are absolutely court approved. Taking away your vulnerability Anne: If this guy’s like, “Look how terrible she is, look at her messages.” They show up to court, and every time they’re like, “These are great.” The way she presents looks good in court. It looks good to anybody else. If he shows those messages to anybody, they’re gonna be like, this is fine. It’s like win-win for you. The other thing is that it doesn’t give him what he wants, so it’s confusing to him. They’ve always been able to manipulate your emotions. The “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic. Can you talk about the counter intuitiveness of the Living Free Workshop? I think people think that maybe it’s the stuff they’ve heard from another influencer, like Gray Rock or maybe, something they heard from a therapist, like how to communicate. And it’s so different. It’s not anything a therapist would say. Mary: This Living Free Workshop helped immensely. As a victim, most of us we’re really kind, we’re good hearted. We wanna solve problems, we wanna work together. You’re always trying to have this honest vulnerability and I think that’s what you take away, is that emotional vulnerability. But it doesn’t look like it in your messages to this person. You don’t make yourself vulnerable to this person in that sense of trying to solve the problem. Anne: Having been abused post-divorce for eight years myself, before I came up with these strategies, people would tell me, just don’t let him affect you And I was like, that is crazy. So post-divorce, I did not experience any physical violence. Strategies that work when my husband is ignoring me Anne: So this is an analogy, because when they are emotionally abusive or psychologically abusive, you discover a lie. Again, they’re undermining your children, it feels like a punch to the gut. So I’m going to use that analogy, even though I’m not actually talking about physical violence here. So every time he’s lying about the kids, it feels like a punch, and so the analogy is if he’s punching me in the face. I have a bruise, and you’re telling me, just don’t get a bruise. It’s not possible. What the strategies do is put a barrier between you and his fist. So, he’s punching, but, it’s not touching you. The more I did the strategies, the more he kept punching, and it was almost like I was in this protected bubble. Mary: That’s a great analogy. Yep. I am no longer getting punched in the face, even though it doesn’t stop them from trying. It’s not about stopping them, it’s all about, Hey, you know what? You wanna be this type of person. Go ahead, I don’t wanna be exposed to that type of person. I’m not opening the door for you. Anne: Yes. Mary: I’m not allowing you to have access to me. Anne: The Living Free Workshop came together after years of interviewing women and my own study and all kinds of experimentation. A well-known addiction recovery therapist would tell the men that he worked with, as long as your wife is angry, then we have something to work with. The thing you need to fear the most is apathy, which he was legit teaching them how to manipulate women. Would he say that he was doing this? No, he was saying he was, saving marriages. A “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic for manipulation. Finding out about his pornography use Anne: If you’re saving marriages through teaching this man how to manipulate his wife better or exploit her more, you’re not saving a marriage. You are enabling an abuser. Because your story involves that your husband was a pornography addict, I’d like to talk about that specifically. Another part of the Living Free strategies in relation to pornography addiction or addiction recovery is that a lot of addiction therapists will say something like, connection is the solution to his addiction. Or couple therapists will be like, the problem is you’re not connecting on an emotional level. And so then in couple therapy or addiction recovery therapy, you become more vulnerable with someone who is just using all those things to manipulate you. Including my husband is ignoring me. So it becomes exponentially worse for you throughout that process. Looking back, can you talk about how that affected you? Mary: I didn’t even realize when we got together that any kind of sexual addiction, pornography addiction was even on the table. We got together through church, so it didn’t occur to me that there would be anything immorally going on with him. During that time, he would get really moody, and I remember thinking, I don’t wanna deal with this. This is how my Christian boyfriend is treating me and we’re not even engaged or married or anything. It wasn’t until we got engaged that he started talking about how we need to confess our sins. We really need to be honest about what we’re getting into as a marriage and like our commitment. We got together with another couple in the church who were gonna do our premarital counseling. And during that time it came out that he would look at pornography. My husband is ignoring me because of pornography Mary: And that’s when he started saying, “Well, we need to be open and honest and confess our sins to each other.” And I tell you what, and it was like he would confess this to me every time I saw him, I was like, what is wrong? I thought, maybe it’s just because he’s so excited to get married and then we can finally have intimacy. We followed all the rules and then we get married and I realize, I am in this deep black abyss of sin with this man. It was scary to see how deep involved in it he was. I could always tell when he had been looking at pornography because his mood would shift. He would become very punishing. He would become very cruel. We got home from our, horrible honeymoon. We just fought the whole time because he wanted sex to go a certain way. It felt really unnatural and not loving to me. I didn’t really know what was going on and now my husband is ignoring me. I spent the whole time crying in another room and I thought, this is a tragic sad way to enter into a marriage covenant. I thought it was gonna be something kind and loving but it wasn’t. We get home from this honeymoon and I feel like a ghost. I’m just living in this house with this guy who I feel like I don’t even know. So I’m online looking up annulments. How do I get out of this? What does God think? Questions you start having and not feeling like there was anyone I could talk to because it was such bizarre behavior. I had never heard of anything like this. As the years went by, it was the same pattern. Twisting the whole narrative making it my fault Mary: He’d become very mean and abusive and angry and sullen and pouty. I started to recognize the pattern. He’s been looking at pornography. So then I started to bring it up because I don’t wanna live in this sullen and guilty, stressed out environment where my husband is ignoring me all the time and so I thought, let me address it. I’ll bring it up, and I’ll just try to forgive him. After a while, you get numb to it. In the beginning, I’d be heartbroken. I would be sad or like, what’s wrong with me? That you don’t want me. I’m the real thing. Like I’m a real woman that you can have sex with. I’m your wife. Anne: Yeah. Mary: But then he doesn’t prefer that. He doesn’t want that ever. It was always on the screens alone, behind closed doors by himself. And I thought, this is exhausting. I’m gonna confront it. I’m not gonna live like this. And then it became my responsibility. It was like his sin, his problem, and his addiction became my issue to confront, deal with, address and forgive. And if I didn’t forgive him correctly then, I was the one to blame. Because I wasn’t understanding enough. And if I would just be nicer about it, then he could trust me to be vulnerable on his own. And it was almost like he was twisting this whole narrative around to make it my fault that he was choosing to be unfaithful to me with these explicit images. Anne: Right. Mary: I was absolutely not on board. He knew how much it broke my heart every single time. manipulating you to do all the work Mary: And then I was the one having to ask him to forgive me for not being vulnerable or supportive or fill in the blank with whatever nonsense. Anne: We see this pattern happen and then we try to anticipate it and do something to change it. In my situation, I would fight him like, Hey, you’re acting weird. Are you looking at pornography? I would confront him. Near the end when I used a few Living Free strategies, not really knowing what I was doing, just experimenting. I just ignored him and took a step back and saw that their pornography use has two benefits to them. Number one, they get to watch porn all they want, and then number two, you are doing all this work. And so it’s like win-win for them. I didn’t know that was manipulation on his part. It’s not your fault that you were trying to anticipate what to do to manage the situation. He wanted you to do that. You were attempting to protect yourself. You thought that was the good way to do it, because that’s what he manipulated you to think. But that’s also what everybody else is saying. Like if he is feeling sad and grumpy, what can you do for him? How can you be kinder? So that this won’t happen. Mary: I wish that I had had access to the Living Free Workshop during all of that chaotic time being married to him. There is one strategy that would’ve given me my mental sanity back despite his chaos. There’s this one step by step in Living Free, where you think about what’s the problem. when my husband is ignoring me, I Can’t make him stop Mary: Okay, he is gonna look at pornography. Why? Because he wants to do what he wants and he wants to see me cry. So what then? I’ll cry and he’ll look at pornography, I guess. And then what? And you keep going through, all right, so then you’ll cry, and then eventually the reality is he’s gonna do whatever he wants either way. So what do I wanna do? I can’t change the fact that he’s gonna look at these images. I can’t change the fact that it feels like he’s being unfaithful to me. And I can’t change the fact it hurts my heart and soul and I’m being crushed in all these ways. And my husband is ignoring me. So maybe we don’t have closeness or I sleep in a different room or maybe we get divorced or I go stay at my mom’s house. When you take a minute and you think it all through, it takes away that fear. Because it gets down to the nitty gritty of what is the end result that you’re so afraid is gonna happen. You come around to this acceptance of I really can’t make them do anything or stop anything. That was something that, I found very eye-opening because there’s this underlying assumption that somehow I could fix this. Anne: Mm-hmm. Mary: And you realize, all you can do is protect yourself, and then learning how to protect yourself was so valuable. Anne: And it’s no wonder that we think that we can improve the situation because they manipulate us to think, if we only did this, he would make a different choice. If we looked better, he wouldn’t wanna look at pornography. Setting boundaries correctly Anne: So you’re like, okay, I’ll reduce his stress as much as possible. And he’s manipulated the therapist or clergy or anybody else to also think that this is a couple problem and that you can do this together. You can’t do it together ’cause it’s not your problem. I think the other issue is so many therapists will talk about boundaries. Like, did you tell him what your boundaries were? You just haven’t set up your boundaries correctly or something. And I’m like, what are you talking about? If you say to someone, I don’t want you to look at pornography, he can still look at it. If you are like, what actual thing am I going to do to protect myself that I’m not gonna say to him that I’m not gonna say to anybody else that if he looks at pornography when he comes home and says, what’s for dinner? I’ll be like, i’m gonna eat at my sister’s house. That’s a totally different way of seeing and viewing boundaries where you don’t even say a word about it. And that’s something entirely within your control and it actually works and he can’t cross it. There’s no way for him to cross it because you haven’t told him what it is. You’re just doing it. Mary: There’s no negotiating. I like what you were saying about how he keeps convincing you with his behaviors and manipulation that you can fix it. The manipulation is to keep you engaged. My husband is ignoring me is a tactic for manipulation. They’ve gotta have somebody engaged, arguing with them, crying about it, serving them. Don’t give him anything of value Mary: They have to convince you on some level that you need to stay engaged. Even if my husband is ignoring me. And maybe it’s because you have a certain set of morals. This is a good Christian girl, like it was in my case. Anne: I do wanna point out, at the back of Living Free, I use my own faith to explain what I thought Christ wanted me to do, for any Christian, scriptures, like, don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with your adversary quickly. Agree with your adversary quickly sounds like you’re being nice to them, but the second part of that is so he doesn’t throw you in jail. And so Christ is saying to you, pretend like you agree with him so he doesn’t throw you in jail. You don’t have to actually agree with him. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Your pearls are things that matter. The Living Free strategies, make it so that you don’t give him anything of value. That includes your thoughts, your goals, your feelings. Those are valuable things. So, there’s a part in Living Free where I pause to say, what are your values? This fits within a Christian value system. Christ talks about it all the time, and I don’t know why clergy are not focused on scriptures that actually benefit women and help set them free. In the back of the Living Free Workbook, it shows you, there’s 1600 places it talks about separation and casting out devils, and only 400 that talk about forgiveness. Did you see that graph at the back of the workbook? strategic communication when my husband is ignoring me Mary: I did. And it makes me think about the scripture that says to be as shrewd as a snake, but innocent as a dove. Anne: Yes, especially when my husband is ignoring me. Mary: You’re not doing anything wrong, but you can be strategic in how you communicate. I think this really opened up my eyes to the truth of a lot of things I wasn’t aware of. Honestly, I feel excited to do the message strategies now that I’ve done the Living Free Workshop. I think for anyone who’s wondering about this Living Free Workshop, just do it. What can you possibly lose? After so many years of being given either bad advice or no advice or empty promises or blame, I found that going through this workshop, was like a breath of fresh air. These are not strategies any of those other resources provided me. Not my church elders, not my therapist, not my friends, not my family. Nobody could tell me the things that were in the Living Free Workshop. Support that you’re just not gonna find anywhere else. You really aren’t. I’ve looked, I’ve read so many books, I’ve listened to so many podcasts and gone to so many different therapists. Like, you can just try the Living Free Workshop and it’s gonna change things for you. Implementing the strategies, I already see results. I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t try it, to be honest, because it’s just so helpful. And there’s this whole section in here about your financial safety, your physical safety. I had to figure out on my own, what kinds of financial things do I need to be thinking of and I wish I had the workshop. Just tangible, effective things to be asking, to think about. How do I create safety? Mary: Questions you need to ask your lawyer, not because you necessarily need it right now, but you might. I know I did. I just think for people who are in the middle, wading through the weeds of it all, this workshop gives you so much detail to consider and you can get into the detail as much or as little as you want. Anne: It’s awesome that with the domestic violence shelter gave you a space to live. They’re very helpful in some very specific ways, but when it comes to writing a message, they don’t know what to do. e. Mary: Right, your body is safe but what about my spirit or my mind or my emotions, my child? Like how do I create a safety zone in all these other realms. All they care about, and thank God they at least care about your physical safety. But that’s the really the only element of safety I got out of it. Anne: Yes. Living Free is also for women still in the relationship I just put all the information in there. Like you can use it however you want, but that way you’ll be educated about all of it so that if anything comes your way, you’ll be prepared for it. Even if you’re just suspecting is my husband lying to me? If you did Living Free, it would show you how to find out if he’s lying to you without asking him. Mary: Right. Anne: So just having the basic steps in the back of your mind is very helpful because it keeps you safe no matter what happens. You need a solid plan to protect yourself Anne: In some states he has to actually have left bruises to get a protective order. And if you don’t have a crime, you’re never gonna get a space in the shelter, for example. So where do you get help, if nobody knows what to do. if people think that divorce is the answer, they don’t understand what it’s like. Mary: It’s not the answer that will end his behavior. In my experience, that’s when it escalates. Anne: Yes. Mary: That’s when you have to really have a solid plan and know exactly how to protect yourself. You need to have that in order before before you go. Anne: If I would’ve had Living Free, I would’ve done everything differently and it would’ve gone exponentially better. Now, it’s not my fault that it didn’t go well. It’s his. He was abusing me, manipulating me. I didn’t know. Nobody told me. The domestic violence shelter didn’t tell me. It’s almost like they want women to start from scratch. Every single woman who goes through this, rather than using that collective experience, which is what is in Living Free. This is the stuff every woman needs to know before they even meet the guy. Before they’re even in a relationship. This is stuff that you need to know, period. It’s gonna keep you safe in any relationship that you have, but especially, if you’re dealing with an emotionally or psychologically abusive husband. When my husband is ignoring me: you need space to see who he really is Mary: Anyone could go through this workshop. I don’t care if you’re in a relationship or not, it’s almost like a pre-course to, equip yourself, have your tools, and all the things you need because you need to know who you’re dealing with. Anne: Yeah. It gives you enough space to actually see who he is. So many women think the answer is to ask about pornography. Before I got married, I asked, and he said he didn’t use it. But if he’s lying, talking won’t protect you. Watch what he does: the “my husband is ignoring me” pattern, disappearing acts, mood flips. Those behaviors tell the truth, and knowing what they indicate helps keep you safe. Mary: Yes. Anne: Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. I appreciate you so much. Mary: My pleasure. It’s so great talking with you, Anne. Thanks for having me.

Co-parenting with a narcissist seems impossible. I know I’ve been there. If your husband or ex is narcissistic, here are 7 ways your he might try to undermine you and your kids, along with 7 ways to overcome it. To find out how bad it is, see which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he uses. Take our free emotional abuse quiz. The 7 Ways A Narcissist Will Undermine Co-Parenting Gaslighting: Narcissistic men are good at making you doubt yourself. They might say you’re overreacting when you’re not. They may say your helicopter parenting when you’re not. Be on the lookout for how he tries to undermine your self confidence. Using The Kids To Hurt You: A narcissistic ex may manipulate the kids to hurt you. Or they may want to go into chaos, and so they undermine the children’s medical care, extra curricular activities, or school work. Playing the victim: Narcissistic men might twist things to make themselves look like the victim. They may exaggerate situations to get sympathy from others and make you seem like the bad one. Undermining your authority: They might try to take control by making decisions without asking you. Or tell your children that you’re not smart or not a good parent. Using money as leverage: A narcissistic ex could use money to control you by withholding child support or making unfair demands. Seeking revenge: Narcissistic men may hold grudges and act out of spite. Lack of empathy: A narcissistic husband or ex won’t understand or care about your feelings. This will make co-parenting with a narcissistic parent really hard. How Do Stay Sane When CO-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent Co-parenting with a narcissistic parent requires a strategic and mindful approach. Here are seven ways to make the process more tolerable: 1. Know Communication Won’t Help When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Since communication is just another way for the narcissist to manipulate us, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’ve learned that we can’t count on communication to resolve anything. It helps when you know that communication won’t do anything to stop him from causing chaos. Instead, use effective boundaries that don’t need to be “communicated”, like the ones we teach in The Living Free Workshop. 2. Learn About Strategic Boundaries To learn how to set boundaries strategically, consider enrolling in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. “I’d been to so many therapists. They just kept telling me to “set boundaries”. What a joke. It never worked. But then I enrolled in The Living Free Workshop at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and holy cow do these ladies know what they’re doing. I could tell immediately they’d been through it. And figured out safety from these dudes. Thanks so much BTR!!!” 3. Use a Parenting App when co-parenting with a narcissist Parenting apps can help, because everything is documented. There are calendars and info banks to use to limit communication as much as possible. 4. How Do You Co Parent with a Narcissist When He Undermines Everything? Prioritize Self-Care Taking care of your own physical and emotional well-being is crucial when co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, and seek support from friends, family, or an online support group for women. 5. Focus on Your Children’s Well-being Keep your focus on what’s best for your children. Avoid hurting your children by promoting their narcissistic dad’s behavior as “love”. Instead, say, “I’m so sorry. I felt that way too. He hurt me too. I’m sorry he doesn’t seem capable enough to love someone as lovable as you.” 6. Develop a Support Network Surround yourself with a supportive network of friends, family, and professionals who understand your situation and can offer guidance and encouragement. If you need support, here’s our daily group session schedule. 7. When Co-Parenting With A Narcissistic parent, Stay Informed Educate yourself about narcissistic behavior and its impact on co-parenting. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear other women’s stories and how they coped. transcript: 7 Ways To Make Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Tolerable Anne: Tammy Guns is here today. She’s going to share her story. She started her career in auditing and accounting for two big four public accounting firms. Then she served in leadership roles in large scale healthcare organizations before her career as a certified divorce financial analyst. Her expertise extends beyond the advisory realm as a trusted expert witness in courtrooms, offering invaluable insights, utilizing forensic accounting. She has also served on two boards of directors and completed Deloitte’s certification program for women board readiness. We will talk about co-parenting with a narcissist. Welcome, Tammy. Tammy: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today. Anne: You mentioned that your personal story is part of what interested you in becoming a certified divorce financial analyst. So can we start there? Tammy: Yes, well, you can only connect the dots backwards. And when I look back to my dating of him. There were so many signs that showed he was a narcissist, but I was so young. My wonderful father was incredibly involved in our lives. I’m one of four children. When I met my ex husband, I did not believe a man could not be a good husband and a good father, because I had such an amazing example of one. I was right out of college when I met him. I was just captured. He’s good looking, charismatic. He’s super intelligent. He was a football player in college. I’m like, of course, he’ll be a good dad, of course he’ll be a good husband, because that’s what I had as an example, and I was looking for all the wrong things. “I Couldn’t Have Known”: What I Wish I Knew Before co-parenting with a narcissistic parent Tammy: Today, I’d have a phone conversation with him and realize absolutely what a narcissist he is. And co-parenting with a narcissist can feel impossible. Anne: Well, we don’t know. It’s not our fault. I think even if you learned about narcissism, until the mask comes off, you still wouldn’t know that they were a narcissist. We don’t even have the context for it. You might see the red flags. But because of your context, you think, oh, he’s tired or stressed out. So to say, people saw red flags and then ignored them. I would say people saw the red flags, and the context they had for them was not that context. Anne: Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? It’s like, would you do anything different? When you knew what you knew then. And the answer is always I couldn’t do anything different. Tammy: Correct, I couldn’t. So I was married for about 17 years when my then husband came home and basically said to me, “I’m done being married to you. I know how much you love the children, so you can have them.” It was pretty traumatic to have the rug pulled out from underneath me. So I ended up going on the journey of a divorce, certainly not understanding anything that was going to happen. In today’s environment, it’s more of a 50/50 situation. But, I went from being a stay at home mom to going back into the workforce, as well as having the children a hundred percent by myself. I do have four college degrees, so I was in the workforce for a while, but at the time I was a stay at home mother. He Didn’t Want To Be Responsible For The Children, But He Still Wanted Control Anne: Wow, that is very unique. I don’t hear that every day, where you got them 100 percent of the time. So many women, at least who listen to this podcast or who are co-parenting with a narcissist, are fighting these narcissists or abusers in court for years. So that is like a miracle. Was that happening with many people back then? Tammy: Even back then, dads had the kiddos every other weekend, probably one night during the week for dinner, like a Wednesday night. What happened in my particular situation is that my ex went through a midlife crisis. He started dating a 25 year old girl who reported directly to him at work. His midlife crisis was, not only do I not want to be married, I also don’t want the responsibility of caring for children. He wanted to travel the world with her, do all sorts of fun things, and of course children get in the way. At the time, I was incredibly scared. How will I take care of these children full time, as well as work full time? But as you said, Anne, in hindsight, it was the greatest blessing that could ever happen. That way I did have the children by myself as far as not co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. I spent 10 years in court with him, but it wasn’t over the time with the children. It was a matter of him actually paying me. Our ink was not even dry on our divorce decree, and he was already not paying me spousal support, not paying me child support, et cetera, et cetera. Hindsight: Unrecognized Signs of Narcissism Tammy: So I was unfortunately wrapped up in the court system for a very long period of time. Until my youngest child went off to college, but I never had to fight him for time. Like I said, I feel fortunate. Anne: How did you know that he was a narcissist? Tammy: He told me, on our wedding night, I will not fail. I do not fail at anything. And so I believed our marriage was for the rest of our lives. I didn’t think he would want to be divorced, because that would be a “failure”. Of course, everything’s crystal clear in hindsight. But certainly not when that’s happening. I looked up a lot about narcissists. He meets the Mayo Clinic definition of a narcissist, like every point. He lacks empathy. I know that many times people throw the word narcissist around loosely. And that could be just somebody who’s self-absorbed, but he actually meets the Mayo Clinic definition. He didn’t physically abuse. However, emotional abuse has lasting scars. Anne: And talking about emotional and psychological abuse, which the court doesn’t recognize. And so there’s no way to protect your kids through the courts, because of the current climate of not recognizing it. And so that’s why we have a workshop that teaches women how to strategically face co-parenting with a narcissistic ex. So let’s talk about court and the problems that happened in court regarding the payment. Even though you had children a hundred percent of the time. And my guess is you had a ton of proof. What You Need to Know About Family Court When co-parenting With a Narcissistic Ex Tammy: First of all, depending on what state you are in, you may or may not have a dedicated family court system. Now, why is that important? In my particular case, there was no dedicated family court. So therefore, you would have judges just rolling off the criminal bench. And now they’re like, Oh, hello, I’m in the courtroom. And now let’s talk about family law. My ex was a chief financial officer, a very good looking man, very articulate. Who would be able to go into court and look the part and talk the part. And he was able to twist all sorts of things so that the judge would actually have some compassion for him, and why he was not paying his child support payments or behind, in paying his spousal support payments. And in the judge’s eyes, you can imagine, right? They’re just coming off the criminal court system, where there are many very dark things that happen. So then when you’re just looking at someone, Oh, you’re behind on your child support payments, and here’s the reason for it: they have a level of compassion that they should not have. And the courts are very clunky. He wasn’t paying. So now I’m financially feeling that impact of not having that income. And now you’ve got increased expenses, because now your attorney says, I need another $5,000. I need another $10, 000. And they want their payment right away, or they’re not going to work for you. So now your expenses are increasing at a time your revenue or your income is decreasing. Playing keep away with court dates Tammy: And it’s not like you’re going to get an answer in five minutes. You might file something with the courts, and they might not hear it for months. And then just as it’s coming up, and he did this to me a lot, and actually because I had the children a hundred percent of the time, I moved states for my career. And even though the children and I lived in Colorado. I always had to catch a plane to go back to where he was domiciled, to go to court. It’s so frustrating. I had paid for my plane ticket. I had my attorney completely prepped for the hearing, so you paid all that attorney preparation time. I’m paying for the hotel room, and I’d get a call at 10:00 o’clock at night from my attorney. Oh, by the way, they’re continuing the hearing. A narcissistic parent will do that on purpose. A narcissist is going to do that in order to mess with you. If they really had a good reason to continue in the hearing, they would have done it before I ever got on that plane. So that was just another tactic to interfere with my life. This would just go on and on. One of my hearings took over two years for them to consider child support. So people should understand. It’s not like, yay, I get my day in court. No, even when you have your day in court, the ruling, I’ve been on cases that I’ve testified, and the ruling doesn’t come until a year later. No Matter What Your Attorney Or The Law Says, A Narcissistic Co Parent Doesn’t Play By The Rules Anne: It seems to always benefit the abuser and never the victim, just in general. If you want a rule, which there are no rules, right? Because it can go any way, but the likelihood of it benefiting the abuser is much higher than the likelihood of it benefiting the victim. Tammy: Absolutely. Anne: That’s the scary part. And I think the other issue is enforcement, because no matter what the ruling says, when you’re co-parenting with a narcissistic parent, enforcing it will be another part of the problem. Tammy: I’m on the case right now, where one party should pay my fees, as well as my client’s attorney fees. Now, there’s even a ruling that says that has to happen. I still haven’t received my payment. So I know exactly what you’re saying happens. The cases that end up in court and end up in court for years, always one of the parties is a narcissist. Because no one else wants to spend that kind of energy, time, and resources. In fact, my attorney would always say it’s cheaper for him to pay you than to pay his attorney and get the ruling, because the rulings would go in my favor, but it’s a year and a half later or two years later. So in the meantime, I’m struggling. So it is absolutely an abuse tactic. And I said to my attorney, I don’t think you understand. Playing “Their Game:” Co-Parenting With a Narcissistic Parent Tammy: This is not a matter of it’s less expensive for him to pay me outright. This is a game. I promise you that when you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, this is a game. Anne: It’s a power play, and they like it. They’re the opposite of normal people, who think that chaos and spending money to hurt people is not enjoyable. There’ve been times where he comes into court so happy. And that always surprises me. It shouldn’t, but it’s really interesting to me. The victim is so overwhelmed. Not necessarily disheveled, because women can show up well put together. So that’s not what I’m saying, but she’s clearly not enjoying this. And he is enjoying it. What are your thoughts about why these types of abusers enjoy it? Especially after your own personal experience? Tammy: Having experienced it myself, I promise you the abuser walks in almost like a saunter. It’s interesting to see it. I’ve seen the narcissist put their arm around the back of the chair of their attorney, and they sit back and are absolutely at ease. And of course, this guy says he has no money, but here’s evidence he actually does. Yeah, it’s a game, and it’s a way to still exert control. Because in a relationship when you’re still together, whether dating or married. There’s a level of control that happens. And I remember my attorney said to me the day we actually officially divorced, “I’m worried about you.” getting a warning from my attorney Tammy: And I said, “Why would you be worried about me? He’s never hit me. He’s never done anything physical to me.” He said, “I’m telling you right now, he no longer has control over you, and he will seek it in some manner.” And that’s what he did. So instead of being able to abuse me emotionally in our home every day, the only way to exert control and abuse over me was through the court system. And he used it. It truly is a weaponization of the court system. Anne: Yeah, it’s legal abuse that the legal system is willingly and actively participating in. Now, does that mean I think they are knowingly doing that? No, I don’t think the judges are like, I know he’s abusive, and that’s fine. But they are making the abuse worse for the victims, and it’s unfortunate they’re not aware of that. They become extensions of the abuse in some way. Tammy: They do. And these judges have many cases on their docket. People have their “right” to their day in court. So when you file a petition, when you file motions, you have a right to that. Yes, the abusers know that. A lot of times I’ve seen cases where people are behind in paying their child support payments. All of a sudden, the day before court, like I’ve seen cases where people are behind over $100,000 in paying child support. And then the day before court to compel them to pay, they might pay like $30, 000. And so then you’re like, Oh, okay, well they made an effort. So it absolutely is a system where the narcissist can continue to abuse victims who are co-parenting. Caught Between A Rock And A Hard Place: Pressure To Settle When co-parenting with A Narcissist In Court Anne: Can we talk about what I would like to deem as unethical pressure? A victim’s attorney will put on her to settle, which might be in her best interest, rather than spending another $150, 000 going to court in attorney fees. This happened with me, and I am still upset about it. We didn’t even present anything to the court. Like a motion or even a defense or anything. And my attorney said, “That will cost you $150, 000 in attorney fees. So why don’t we just shut this down now and only pay $40, 000 in attorney fees? In the process, I got zero things that I wanted, like literally zero. So the only thing I paid the attorney fees for was to basically wrap up the case. So I didn’t have something in court happening. I knew I had all the proof on my side, but it was too expensive for me to do it. And the attorneys knew it. Lose, because even if I won, I was still out $150, 000 that I did not have. So can you talk about that rock and a hard place that victims are in, and how their attorneys end up traumatizing women in this process? Tammy: You’re absolutely correct. This is the dilemma that happens. The fact that an attorney will sit down with their client and say, “Listen, we’re going to go to court and we’re going to lose on things.” Winning in court of appeals but losing anyway Tammy: We’ll go to court, and we’ll win on things that you thought there’s no way we’ll win. It’s hard to tell what could happen in a case with a with a narcissist. Certainly you have prior case history, but the courts are always evolving. And so it’s never a hundred percent sure. That’s why in my particular situation, we even went to the court of appeals, because the lower court judge who had rolled off the criminal bench didn’t understand family law, and actually made an error in the ruling. And so that was an additional expense. Now I’m fortunate, this is not the case most of the time. My attorney firm believed so strongly that the judge had made a mistake. They said, “We’re going to fund most of this.” Cause it was tens of thousands of dollars, and they wanted it because it was prestigious, and for their law firm to go before the court of appeals and actually win. And we did win in the court of appeals. But again, now you’re talking about another year. Had, I had to make that decision myself and foot the entire bill. There’s no way. I would have had to live with the judges error in the ruling. But even though the attorney firm I worked with was willing to do that, it was remanded to the lower court. And let me tell you, it can really annoy the judge that now you appealed them and you have to continue to be in front of that judge. They can retaliate against you in their rulings. And so even though I won in the court of appeals, in reality, I did not. Why Is The Law So Unpredictable When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist? Anne: Can you talk about why the law is so unpredictable? Tammy: Back when I divorced, there weren’t a lot of statutes, and that was back when whoever had the bigger, better hired gun would win in the court system. Now, I will say the courts have improved on some level in that there are far more statutes that they follow. So it is better, but it’s still not where it needs to be. Case law can affect things. Back when I got divorced, if you got divorced with the exact same case facts in a different county or in front of a different judge, you could get an entirely different ruling. It’s just that it’s a very old, archaic system that has a lot of things that need improvement. Because, like I said, the landscape is they really want 50/50 parenting. Anne: Yeah, in Utah, we just passed Om’s’s law, which is similar to Caden’s law. Are you aware of that law? Tammy: I don’t think I am. Anne: Where are you? Tammy: I’m in Colorado. Anne: So you guys passed it too. Tammy: Okay. Anne: It made reunification therapy illegal. And the reason why is because abusers and narcissistic co parents are using it. I mean, it’s just an abuser tactic. So, now they’ve just renamed it a different name, and they still do it. There’s no way to stop them, because now it has a different name, and they’re still court ordering it. Even though it’s against the law, and also against the law in Colorado. Passing Laws to protect children Anne: We try to run it here about emotional and psychological abuse. Because at least two cases were here, and you had one recently, someone who was never physically abusive, ever, then murdered people. Yours was with the dentist who murdered his wife. It is called Caden’s Law in Colorado, and it was passed in 2023. It protects children from abuse in custody cases. And this would be at play with the money situation if he gets less custody. Because then he would need to pay more, and I feel like there’s two things happening with abusers. There’s just the control, they like the control. But the second part is that they want the most custody to pay the least amount of child support. And so the kids get to their house, and thtey neglect them at their home. They don’t think, “Wait, I’m going to have to actually do something with these children.” Tammy: Absolutely. Anne: They just want to have the most amount of parent time possible, because all they see is the paycheck to their ex. And a narcissist would rather make their kids miserable at their house, neglecting them, than pay their ex any child support. Tammy: Absolutely, because the child support formula, at least in Colorado, is based on the income of mom, income of dad, who pays the health insurance, because that ends up getting split. And so if one person pays it, that’s factored into the child support calculation. And then obviously time with mom and with dad. Time Is Money When Co-Parenting With a Narcissist Tammy: Yes, more time if it’s a 50/50 split. Child support ends up being pretty low actually here in the state of Colorado. Whereas, if mom has predominantly far more time, the child support calculation certainly increases considerably. And when the children are with dad, homework isn’t done. Or they get dropped off at school late, you know, things like that. Anne: We don’t recommend trying to get a parenting coordinator or custody evaluator when co-parenting with a narcissist, because that’s another avenue for him to abuse her. So if he messages her, and she won’t do what he wants, because the parenting plan says no, right? You’re supposed to pick up on Wednesdays, and he’s like, no, I want to pick up on Thursdays. Then he can go through the parenting coordinator, and the parenting coordinator will make her do it. That’s why we’re like, don’t even use a parenting coordinator. We do not recommend it at all. So one of the things that I’ve often either asked women that I talked to, or I’ve thought myself, is, “If you were a billionaire, would you want to remain married to this person?” Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says, “No, I wouldn’t. Because I want to continue being a stay at home mom.” Or “Because I want to continue to homeschool.” I’m not a homeschooler, but other women have wanted to do that. Their life is drastically changing in a way they can’t control. And so finances are such an important piece of that puzzle. Financial Strangulation: What You Need To Know And How To Be Strategic Tammy: Absolutely, it’s incredibly frustrating, because what can happen in a divorce with a narcissist is what’s called financial strangulation. And the other side can do that, especially if you have a working spouse, and then the other is a stay at home spouse. And so they’ll cut off bank accounts or credit cards. So it can cut off people’s access to cash or the ability to leave the situation. Here I have four college degrees, but at the time I divorced, I was a stay at home mom because we supported his career to advance. And it helped him. It didn’t help me personally. And then I had to raise my children a hundred percent, but also get back into the workforce. And it’s very scary. Anne: I recently saw two cases where the ex was extremely wealthy. When I say extreme, I mean extreme. The women ended up with hardly anything, because he shut down bank accounts or moved money around, spent a lot of money, or ended up scaring her so badly that she did not get what she was entitled to. And the lawyers in her case were like, do you want to spend four more or five more years? I think there’s a disconnect between what you’re legally entitled to, like this is the law. And then actually spending the money to get it, and there’s no way around that. That’s what our Living Free strategies are about in our workshop that teaches women. This is strategically how to deal with them. Dealing with financial control Anne: And it might mean that you leave a bunch of money that you’re entitled to on the table. So that he doesn’t abuse you anymore. Tammy: Exactly what you’re saying. If one person has control over the credit cards, has control over bank accounts, take out a credit card right now in your name only. You can use the household income. So you can get a higher credit limit. Financial strangulation is a real thing. Because to have an attorney represent you, you have to pay the attorney, and to pay your bills, you have to have financial resources. Like you’re saying. Women say, “I don’t even qualify for rent. No one will rent to me because I don’t have a credit score history.” Some landlords want the full lump sum right away, and people don’t have financial resources to do that. It’s rare that people have financial resources, because like you’re saying, most people are just getting by. Anne: In a defense case, like if you’re charged with a crime, you at least get the public defender, but there is no version of a public defender in divorce. Tammy: What’s supposed to happen is that once a petition for dissolution has been filed, everything has to be status quo. So you’re not allowed to change beneficiaries. You’re not allowed to drop people from health insurance policies. You’re not allowed to do all these things. But abusers will do that. And do you have the ability to say they were wrong? Yeah, but it requires financial resources to pay the attorney to get in front of the judge. co-parenting with A Narcissist: what to do when he Isn’t Following The Law And You Can’t Afford A Fight Anne: And think that’s the main problem that I see repeatedly with attorneys is they’ll tell the victims, well, this is the law. He can’t do that. I think the court isn’t recognizing that he IS doing it. I remember my attorney saying, “Once this is signed” and I’m just laughing now. “You don’t need to worry, because this is what the parenting plan says.” And I was like, “The second I sign it and he signs it, the case is over. But I can literally scrunch it up and throw it in the garbage can because he’s not going to follow it.” Tammy: Correct, a narcissistic parent, doesn’t follow it. Even when I went through my divorce, he tried to have a good appearance in front of the kids. He would say, “I’m going to pick up the kids at five o’clock for dinner.” So I would make plans to go out with girlfriends, or maybe go on a date, and lo and behold, it’s eight o’clock and he still hasn’t picked them up. He might keep them overnight on a Friday night and he would say, ” They’re sick.” And I’m like, “It’s Saturday.” He goes, “I don’t know who their pediatrician is. I don’t know who to call.” So, back to the beginning of our conversation. I was fortunate that I had the kids a hundred percent of the time. Because had they been with their dad, they would have missed a lot of things. He didn’t know who their pediatrician was. He purposely creates exhaustion Tammy: And it actually would have been for me personally, not even the children. I know I would have gone through him not picking up the kids when he said he was or not dropping them off. In fact, when I moved states for a job, he had the children that day. And he knew I had to get on the road at a decent hour. Our exchange time was 5 o’clock, because I had many hours to go before I could get to a hotel. He didn’t bring the kids back that night until 11 o’clock, and I had to get on the road that late. What are you going to do? How litigate that in court? You know, that was just another way to exhaust me, which is terrible, right? He purposely kept the kids until 11 o’clock that night. I was exhausted. So, I know that I was fortunate that I got my children 100 percent of the time. Because I would have had that day in and day out, that type of abusive situation of not following the parenting plan at all. Anne: So it’s hard to be like the parenting plan will help, or in my own personal case, my attorney would say, “Did you see the draft, was it okay?” And I was like, “I’ll just sign anything. I don’t even care what it says, because it does not matter.” Tammy: Because you know who that person is. There’s got to be more education within the court system. Why Having A Strategy For Co-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent Is So Important Tammy: I remember going to a therapist who specialized in narcissists right after I divorced, because I was quite broken emotionally. I remember the therapist saying to me, “You know, that tool belt you have to interact with other people? You need to take that off and set it aside, because it doesn’t apply with a narcissist.” I remember almost having this sigh of relief hearing those words, to know that there was someone who absolutely understood what I was going through. Because you can’t explain, like other people, even my girlfriends, who I love dearly, they would say, “Why does he do that? Why can’t the court see what he is doing?” And I would say, “Here’s the thing, you’re trying to use that tool belt of normal conflict management or normal personal interaction, but that tool belt does not apply with a narcissist. You have to take that off and throw it away because we are talking about an entire new set of circumstances. And they don’t play by the rules. It’s all playing to win. It’s a game.” And it’s sad. I actually believe, this is in hindsight, that my ex husband saw my goodness, and he saw my light, and he wanted what I have. He wanted my view of the world. And so because he couldn’t have it, he was going to make sure I was just beat down to the ground. He uses legal abuse Tammy: Unfortunately, it took until my daughter turned 18 before I finally could have a life where I could live without him in it. In the court system, you’re tied to them until they’re 18 years old. And so he could use the courts to abuse me up until that time. Just like you’re saying, they view the courts as an extension of a way to abuse you. At the time, I looked at it as, I’m doing this on behalf of my children. My children have a right to this money. I took him to court to get him to pay, but he always took me to court to reduce my child support. A narcissistic parent is going to lie. And a lot of them are quite successful individuals. My ex was a chief financial officer, because they can use their charisma to move up the corporate ladder to be business owners. I had one case where, “Oh, I make $80, 000 a year.” And I told the judge, “No, he makes $480, 000 a year.” The judge absolutely took my report in its entirety. During COVID, where people got those PPP loans, that was a huge abuse in the court system. Because these business owners, maybe their revenue had gone down. But now their employee expenses were zero, because the government through the PPP loan paid for that, but they still got to deduct those expenses. The court system is a gauntlet of pain Tammy: So these narcissists ran to court, and told the judge, stop my child support. Look, my business is in the red. In reality, it wasn’t. Their revenue was down, but their expenses were zero. You have to be careful of these people who run to the court seeking relief from their child support payments. In reality, they were doing just fine financially because of these loans. And I know the shortcomings of the court system. Anne: The court system is this gauntlet of pain. Tammy: If you’re going into a court system and thinking it’s going to solve your problems, it’s not. Are there glimmers of hope and are there things that can happen? Yes, you’ve got this legal system, but then you’ve got the emotional situation you’re going through And certainly there’s a financial situation. You have to have a multi-pronged approach to resolve it. And that’s why, the beauty of you offering a course to women to help heal them and give them tools in other avenues to deal with this narcissist. Even recently, I saw my ex husband, because my oldest daughter, my middle child, just got married. You’ll continue to see them at birthdays, graduations, weddings. The Court System Is Not Going To Solve Your Problems with A Narcissistic parent: Build A Support System Tammy: The tools that you offer in order to be able to deal with them, they’re invaluable going forward. You can get to the other side, but you need an incredible support system. You cannot do this alone. I would always say to my girlfriends, I swear I’d be six feet under if it weren’t for them. Because they were the ones that saw my beauty. They were the ones who saw my strength. They were the ones that were my greatest cheerleaders, who said, “Get up, dust yourself off. You can do this another day.” So I really believe having an effective support in place was key for me to be able to get to the other side of this. I could never get to the other side alone. Anne: Going through the court in some way or another, you’ll have to have a legal document that you sign to be divorced. Tammy: Correct. Anne: There’s no way around it. Now, the way I got my kids completely free of my ex, we didn’t go to court, but he signed a legal document. So, I’m not saying that will work for everyone, there’s no guarantees. But, there’s no way around the legal ramifications and some type of legal process. And, you can do a DIY. You can have a BTR coach help you. You can hire an attorney. There are multiple avenues to do this, but you have to do it. There’s No Way Around It: You Need A Good Team and A Good Strategy Anne: And so, no matter how terrible it is, or miserable or hopeless, having the right team a trauma informed divorce coach like we have here. We mostly deal with things like strategy and emotions. How to keep yourself centered, thought strategies that you can use so that you can actually function. I think the hopeful part is that this is one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. You can get through it, you will survive co-parenting with a narcissist. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and our team will be there for you. No matter what the outcome is, you will survive and your kids will be okay. I think that’s what I’m trying to land on. For all of us who have been through it, and we’re looking back. We know that will happen, but it’s very hard to feel that when you’re going through it. Tammy: It is. There’s no other way, especially when you have children, because the courts require you to have the parenting plans and whatnot. But there is light at that other side, but you must walk through this process. And that’s why, just as you stated, it’s important that professionals are in place. Who will help you on several fronts to navigate this environment, legally, as well as personally, emotionally, spiritually, all of that. The more of a support system you can have in place, the better chance of your success. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Tammy, for spending time to talk with us today. I appreciate you. Tammy: I have enjoyed my time with you. Thank you so much for having me on your show.

If you’re considering marriage infidelity counseling, you’re not alone. Most women in crisis start here, Googling late at night, hoping a professional can finally make sense of what’s happening in their marriage. Counseling can help in the right situation, but there are some realities women wish they had known before scheduling that first session. 5 Things to Know Before Starting Marriage Infidelity Counseling Here are five things every woman should understand before going: 1. Counseling Follows the Story You Bring Into the Room Most marriage infidelity counseling isn’t designed to identify emotional or psychological abuse. Counselors are trained to help with communication, reconnection, and repairing trust, not spotting betrayal trauma in relationships, coercion, or chronic deception.So if you walk in unsure of what’s happening, the therapist often follows your frame, even if something much more serious is going on under the surface. 2. Couple Counseling Can Accidentally Reward His Manipulation Women often tell me they felt worse after marriage infidelity counseling, not because the therapist was unkind, but because the process unintentionally gave their husband new ways to twist the narrative. Men who are actively lying, hiding, or manipulating can look reflective, apologetic, and “committed to change,” while the woman who has been mistreated looks exhausted, overwhelmed, or reactive. The result? He’s praised. She’s pathologized. 3. Marriage Infidelity Counseling Can’t Fix a Pattern It Can’t See Many counselors assume both people tell the truth. They rely on transparency, good faith, and mutual honesty, qualities your husband may not bring to the table. If the root issue is chronic lying, coercion, or secret-keeping, no amount of worksheets, empathy-building exercises, or compromise strategies will solve the real problem. 4. You May Leave With More Confusion Instead of Answers Thousands of women have come to BTR after months or years of marriage infidelity counseling, saying the same thing: “It didn’t get better. I was just blamed more.” When a therapist can’t name the deception, the blame shifts onto the woman, her “communication style,” her “triggers,” her “expectations.”They might recommend other treatment programs, like addiction recovery or codependents anonymous. You end up working harder, while he becomes more skilled at hiding the truth. 5. You Deserve Clarity Before marriage infidelity Counseling—Not After If you’re already exhausted, confused, or walking on eggshells, you don’t need more pressure. You need tools, language, and a framework to understand what you’re actually facing—before deciding whether marriage infidelity counseling is the right path.That clarity protects you. It also prevents you from spending months (or years) trying to repair something you didn’t break. A simple place to start is The After Infidelity Free Email Course, a private way to explore the patterns so you can walk into any counseling environment fully informed.Or, if you want deeper guidance at your own pace, the Living Free Workshop gives you the tools I wish someone had handed me the first time I stepped into a marriage infidelity counseling office. Transcript: The Risk From Marriage Infidelity Counseling No One Shares Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Sarita. She went to marriage infidelity counseling, and was unaware of the risks. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Here’s what Sarita said. Sarita: “I wish that I had found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast before I tried therapy and spent thousands of dollars. Your podcast, is what I needed.” Sarita: We were young. We started dating when I was 19. As a young girl, it looked like he just had some anger problems. When he would get really angry, he would walk around the school and actually punch the walls. When Pastoral marital Counseling Misses The Hidden Patterns Sarita: My very first step actually was trying to do counseling with our pastor. This was probably about a year and a half into our marriage. I really noticed him drift from God. That’s what it seemed like at the time. Because prior to that, he was this alleged devoted Christian. He would wake up early in the morning and do his devotions and pray. And I started to actually get worried about him, thinking, “Oh no, like, is he depressed? Is he struggling in his faith?” I wanted to come alongside him as the wife. “What can I do for you? How can I love you, support you, pray for you, and make your life easier?” And I didn’t realize what was happening back then. We started doing marriage infidelity counseling with our pastor, and that was the worst idea on the planet. I did not know that, obviously. Anne: Because that’s the most common thing people suggest when someone’s having “relationship problems.” People will suggest couple therapy. So can you talk about how that went? Sarita: I never really felt heard. I felt like our pastor made a lot of excuses for him. What we did in counseling was watch this video series by Paul Tripp. I remember feeling frustrated after each session, just not feeling like we were getting anywhere. I felt like there was a lot of downplaying, a lot of blaming me, and a lot of, “Oh, he’s just really struggling in his faith. He’s really broken, and he needs your support. He needs your love. He needs your help.” Why Marriage Infidelity Counseling Often Leaves Women More Confused Sarita: The responsibility was all on me, not on him. There were many excuses for him. We both actually decided marriage infidelity counseling was not working. And we decided to stop going. We actually found a church an hour away, so we decided to check it out, and we loved it. That church was going to save our marriage. And so we actually moved an hour away to be part of this church. Anne: How did that go? Sarita: Not good. It ended up being years and years of spiritual abuse symptoms from this church, a lot of gaslighting, pounding passages into my head, about how you’re going to help save your husband. Just pray for him and love him through your actions, and stop constantly trying to say things to him. Peter 3, verse 1, “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.” Anne: Wow, that’s quite the interpretation of that. Why in the world would God tell anybody not to fear something frightening? God doesn’t want us to submit to evil. The interpretation of that doesn’t even make sense. The Burden Placed On Wives In Spiritual Communities Sarita: Exactly, so that is the passage that was drilled into my head for years and years. Win him without a word. Just basically be as perfect as you humanly can. As a wife make sure you are upkeeping the house, taking care of the children, removing every possible stressor at home for him, so that he doesn’t explode on you. I remember friends telling me, Sarita, it’s actually absurd to me to think about how much time you spend cleaning and cooking, because your house is always spotless. And we had four kids in four years. I was always pregnant or always nursing. He pretty much always came home to a warm home-cooked meal. I took care of everything for him. I took care of finances and scheduled marriage infidelity counseling. Throughout this time, he actually almost killed me. He went to jail for that. I came to the elders and my mentor, and I told them, look, this is where I’m at. So I am feeling a lot of bitterness. My husband has no empathy. I do not feel an ounce of empathy anymore for him. And I need help, because I want to forgive him. I want to care about what’s going on with him, but I just don’t anymore. I don’t want to stay in this place. Can you please help me? And then one week after, our elders came to our house with papers in their hands, and gave us papers of church discipline. The church disciplined him for emotional abuse, harshness with his wife, not stepping up as a husband. The church disciplined me for unforgiveness and bitterness toward him. Anne: Wow. Sarita: And so that was a really big slap in the face. i cried myself to sleep desperate for help Anne: Yeah. Sarita: Because it was like, I came to you desperate for help, seeking marriage infidelity counseling, and telling you I don’t want to stay in this place. Instead, you slapped me with church discipline. Anne: Did you know of any pornography use and infidelity at the time? Sarita: Oh yeah, he was very cold, extremely cold. I remember feeling like he hated me. I remember begging him in tears almost every night to just come to bed with me. Telling him like, “I love you, I want to spend time with you,” And I remember him essentially telling me to “F” off. And I would cry myself to sleep. This went on for years. And he watched pornography or played video games. I actually remember having to hide finances from him. If I didn’t hide that money, it would be completely gone. He woke me up many times in the middle of the night. There was a lot of sexual coercion. And I remember telling him, no, I’m not ready for another baby right now. The way I actually conceived our fourth child was marital rape. I obviously would never take back that baby ever. Every pregnancy of mine, I was on bedrest, in mass amounts of pain. He did not care. My body was his, and he essentially owned it. He was going to make sure he got what he needed. I remember many times asking him “Hey, honey. Are you doing okay? Like how is the pornography use going? Is there anything I can do as your wife to support you?” I am willing to basically be your object. If you would stop betraying me. Why Marriage Infidelity Counseling Misses Emotional and Sexual Coercion Sarita: I actually was always available. “We can do this, I’m here. I’m not going to tell you no.” I used to try to initiate a lot, and he would turn me down nearly every single time, and it was crushing. Anne: Did the church encourage this idea that you needed to be available for sex all the time? Sarita: It was very much within the teachings of our church. As the wife, you should be available to your husband, unless you are sick, or unless you have a valid reason. Anne: I don’t want to is not a valid enough reason, apparently. Sarita: Yes, exactly. And the only times that I ever actually turned him down were when I was pregnant and in tons of pain. Because I knew if he doesn’t do it here, he will go somewhere else. Anne: You probably didn’t recognize at the time, that going to marriage infidelity counseling was a form of resistance. You were trying to get him to be kind to you. You were trying to stop his behavior from hurting you. And this is what they told you would make the situation better. But my guess is you didn’t recognize it as a form of resistance at the time. Sarita: Yeah, no I didn’t. It was just me doing my Biblical duty as a wife. When we conceived our fourth child, I remember coming forward to the elders, and they did sit down with us and say, “No means no.” Like you cannot rape your wife. It was like a slap on the wrist. There was no comfort or reprieve. It was just, he got you pregnant, now you gotta deal with it. Why Exposure, Church Discipline, And Marital Infidelity Counseling Doesn’t Make Him Safe Sarita: That is when his behaviors actually escalated. He had been hiding behind this mask for so many years. Especially with this church community and with our friends and family. That he was this Christian man with these values and morals. And he loved his wife and took care of his family. And I think when people started to see through it, he finally felt peace to be who he was. He started a lot of drinking, hanging out with very questionable people. And he stopped going to church. going on dating sites, hookup sites, and granted, it could have started before. Anne: So the second the church situation wasn’t helping him exploit you anymore, he was done with it. Sarita: Pretty much, yep, if they were going to expose him, he just didn’t come anymore. Anne: I want to stress that, because so many women are like, if someone would discipline him, then we might get help. And then maybe our marriage could be good. But often when that happens, when he’s exposed through marriage infidelity counseling, things don’t get better, they actually get worse. My guess is, you never would have guessed back then that discipline would have made it worse. Sarita: I thought the church, the congregation, would step up. I was sitting in church alone with my four children, everyone looking at me, everyone avoided me like the plague. Anne: It’s so awful. I’m so sorry. So for our listeners who are thinking like, “Oh, if I could get a diagnosis or if I could get someone to explain to him how bad this is,” he already knows what he’s doing. He knows what’s going on. Nobody tells a woman that. When Marriage Infidelity Counseling Professionals Know the Truth but Don’t Tell the Victim Anne: They all say you just need couple therapy or marriage infidelity counseling, and you need to get him help and be understanding with him. Sarita: And they don’t realize how damaging couple therapy actually is. Especially for the victim, but even for him, because it enables him. And when you said you don’t need a diagnosis, I had begged him to go see a psychiatrist, and he finally did. And they actually interviewed me too. They wanted to know what my take on things was. And the psychiatrist at the time was heavily leaning toward antisocial personality disorder. So sociopathy, he went to probably two or three visits with that doctor. And I think by the time he realized what they were coming to, that was when he said, “I’m not going back.” I remember the psychiatrist telling me, I think this is what we are dealing with. And what’s wild is that I met my mentor from back then. I told her that and she said, oh yeah, that’s not a surprise to me at all. Me and the pastors used to always say that he was absolutely a sociopath. Anne: What! Sarita: And I just remember thinking like you guys knew years ago when we were in marriage infidelity counseling and you didn’t tell me. Anne: And also, you didn’t say, hey, how can we support you, to get to safety? Did anyone ever ask you that? Sarita: Nope. Anne: Yeah, that’s That is super, super alarming. Sarita: She ended up blaming me. I asked her. I said, why didn’t you guys tell me that? And she said, I don’t think you would have listened. Anne: She never gave you the opportunity to listen. People don’t understand what it is like to be an abuse victim Sarita: Right, you never gave me the chance, and it doesn’t matter whether I would have listened in marriage infidelity counseling, or not. It was your responsibility to say something. You don’t get to decide what you think I’m gonna hear. Anne: As an advocate, I observe women continually trying to get to safety through marriage infidelity counselint, and sometimes they don’t feel like what I’m telling them is the safest option. At the time, they might say something like, “He’s not really abusive,” And I believe it’s because that feels too unsafe, because the things they’re describing are definitely abuse. That’s why many people disagree with our stance here at BTR that betrayal is abuse. But I still say it anyway, despite the fact that they don’t think it’s abuse or think I’m being too harsh because this guy is a good guy or something. I don’t think people understand what it’s like to be an abuse victim trying to get to safety and not getting the right information from anybody. Sarita: Exactly, that’s exactly what I do now. Like, when I’m talking with other women about their situation, whether they’re currently in it, or they just came out of it, I will say that to them, you do realize that is abuse. And some of them will say, no, they’ll explain why he acted that way. And I’m always like, No. I can guarantee you that if we really look at this deeper, this has been going on for a long time. And so I think it’s a lot more helpful to just come out and say no, that is abuse. What you said, I have a lot of people too that disagree with me. They’ll think, or they’ll say, it feels like you just call everything abuse. I finally found out about everything Anne: Yeah, I have people say that to me too. Sarita: Yeah, and not quite. Once you understand it and once you see it, you cannot unsee it. You see it everywhere you go, in your family, in your friendships even, in your work, in acquaintances. Anne: Yeah, it’s true. You cannot unsee it. Sarita: Everything became much more exposed, I found out about the hookup sites. And I ended up having surgery when our newborn was six weeks old. And he actually left me with our four children. During the entire time, he was out getting wasted, doing who knows what. By the end of that month was when I came to find out about everything, and that is when I decided to leave. Before I finally left for good, he actually did go through a very short term addiction treatment, but he left early. He didn’t even graduate. Anne: What type of addiction? Sarita: Alcoholism, it took a matter of about a month before the mask started to fall off. I remember standing on my front porch, praying and getting this impression from God, where he essentially said to me, “I can save him, whether you are married to him or not. I’ve got this from here. You go and be free.” And I felt this physical release, oh my goodness, I can breathe. Because for years I had been told to save my husband. I filed for divorce, and I felt a lot of grief. And I was heartbroken and destroyed. And then I decided I regretted it. So I was like, I’m going to save my marriage. Seeing the Same Abusive Pattern in a Second Marriage Sarita: It was this whole thing where he was actually supposed to break it off with his then girlfriend. And I was supposed to break it off with my then boyfriend, and I kept up my end of the deal. I initially left him in April, and by December he officially served me with papers. And then we divorced the following year. Anne: So Sarita will now share what happened with her second marriage. So why don’t you just start at the beginning? Sarita: I actually met him when I was 16 years old. He was in this friend group that my ex used to hang out with a lot. It was interesting, because back then I wasn’t attracted to him. On top of that, he was seven years older than me. As an adult now looking back, that’s weird. That he was comfortable hanging out with 16 and 17 year olds. Granted, nothing inappropriate ever happened between us back then. When we were friends, I would talk to him about this relationship here and there. It was not often. There were a few times that he had given me advice. So his cousin died in a car accident. It was a really sad situation. But I went to the funeral and saw him like, good to see you, whatever, you know. Through the years, we very loosely kept in contact. At one point in time, he came to a church event with me and my first husband. During that meeting, he showed me this list he carried around with him, of what he wants in a woman. And it was this bullet pointed list of brunette, she’s gotta have all these character traits, body traits, like eye color. Anne: Was it mostly physical? Doing everything possible to save this marriage: marriage infidelity counseling Sarita: Yes, mostly physical. He did have some, she has to love the Lord, ’cause he did claim to be a believer. So there was stuff like that sprinkled in there, but it was really, this is my perfect woman, essentially. Anne: Physically. Sarita: Yeah, and I remember thinking back then, that’s weird. Like, so you’re not even willing to consider another woman outside of that. Anne: But also not like, has a good sense of humor. Did it have anything about her personality? Sarita: I don’t remember. His big points on there were like the physical traits. And then, like I said, she has to love the Lord. But it was almost like she has to love the Lord was like this added bonus, but he is looking for this woman that fits this perfect mold. I actually remember seeing his first wife on Facebook, and I used to comment on those posts like, “Oh my gosh, congratulations. I’m so happy for you. She’s beautiful.” It was like friend to friend. I’m like, wow, I watched your journey with your first wife. So anyway, when my husband at the time, went through a treatment program. What do you know? His recovery coach was yep, my second ex. So I’m desperately trying to do everything I possibly can even with marriage infidelity counseling to save this marriage. I am so committed to this marriage and this man. I remember telling my future second husband, “Hey, please take care of him, please love on him, check in on him.” I actually worked at that treatment facility. He was in the men’s building, and then I was in the women’s building. And he was like, “Yeah, absolutely I will.” Dealing with separation at the same time Sarita: He was going through a separation with his wife. During both of our first marriages, we’re dealing with separation simultaneously. And that was something that bonded us. My first marriage ended. Years later, I saw him in the parking lot, and I ran up to him. I gave him a hug. I was like, “I haven’t seen you in years. It’s so good to see you.” And at this time, we’re both single, and so I’m like, “We really should catch up sometime. It’s been so long.” We went bowling, we went out to eat, and we just had a fun time. We played basketball. He was actually intentional about saying, “I am not interested, you’re a friend.” ‘Cause when we would go out to eat and stuff together as friends, people would be like, “Oh my gosh, you guys are such a cute couple.” And I’m not kidding you, he would literally gag and be like, “Oh, no. I would never date her. She’s just a friend.” Anne: Were you interested in him? Or were you like, this is great. I like being his friend. Was there a part of you that was like, well, if he wanted more, then I would want more too? Sarita: I was actually seeing someone else during that summer. I liked just being friends. Anne: Now you had seen his list of what I want in a woman. Did you fit some of that “criteria” at all? Or were you thinking in your mind well, of course that’s rude. But I can see why he’s not interested. ‘Cause I’ve seen his list and I’m not what he’s looking for. Did that enter your mind at all? He was obsessed with my friend Sarita: No, I really didn’t fit his list, other than he wanted a girl that was short and I had long black hair. I’m Asian Indian and have a slightly darker complexion. I’m not super dark, but tan. There were a couple of girls he was very interested in during the summer. One of them was a friend of mine. She had been like family to me for many years. He was just obsessed with her. He would be like, can you please talk to her and see if she’ll go out with me, or just let me take her on a date? And I would always be like, no, I’m not doing that for you. Because if she already told you no, it’s a no. ‘Cause she was a bartender, and he would drink or whatever and try to talk to her. And I remember thinking back then, dude, take a hint. He did this with her and another girl. I remember telling him you have to stop and give it a rest. And he was like, “I just wish they would give me a chance. I just wanna take them on a date, just one date.” And I’m like, “But the answer was no. So just move on.” Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was maybe using you to get to her. Sarita: Very possible. Anne: Because these guys are so transactional, they’re not doing it just for “fun.” They have a goal in mind and they’re trying to accomplish that goal. He asks to move into my house Sarita: Exactly. I was dating other people and enjoying single life. He had his son during the last month of summer for a couple weeks. We got our kids together once, and we took them to the fair. His son got sick at one point, and he reached out to me and asked, “What do I do?” I’m thinking he’s a single dad. He is trying so hard. He just needs a woman to show him that this is what you do when your kid’s sick. So at the end of summer, he called me out of nowhere and he goes, “When I was on the way home from dropping off my son, my car broke down.” So his car’s stuck in a shop 12 hours away. He takes a plane back home, and he calls me and goes. “Can I stay with you while my car is getting worked on?” Because he actually lived with his parents. This is a 33-year-old man. And he lived a half hour from town, a half hour from where he worked. And so he goes, “Would you be okay with me staying in the living room? I’ll sleep on the floor. I don’t know how I’ll get to work every day, because my car’s stuck in the shop. I don’t have money to fix it right now, and I can’t get a ride to and from work every day.” There was that little voice that was like, “I don’t know how I feel about this. This is kind of a big ask.” I’m a single mom, and I’m thinking “I’m just not really sure if I’m comfortable with this.” I realize he’s using me Sarita: I ended up ignoring that small voice, and I was like, “I guess if it’s only for a few weeks, I don’t have a bedroom, I don’t have anything. You can sleep on the living room floor.” And he was like, “That’s totally fine.” And because we both worked at the same place, he expected me to take him to work every day. It was a perfect setup. He was just using me. I did not work every day. I was actually technically on call. So there were many mornings when I was waking my kids up at 6, 6:30 in the morning, getting them ready so that we could take him to work. It was a huge sacrifice for me to do this. He knew that and never expressed gratitude for it. He was like, thanks. That was it. He never offered to help pay bills. He never offered, can I give you 300 bucks to help cover the extra utilities? Like nothing. Anne: Or even gas ’cause you’re driving him. Sarita: Nope, he was very much like, I’m just using you and I’m not giving you anything in return. And so by the end of that month, I’m like, “Okay, what’s going on here?” And he was like, “I’ve just been trying so hard to save up money to get my car fixed so that I can get it back.” Anne: Maybe he lied about the car and it wasn’t even in the shop. Maybe he had to give it to his ex or something. Where is his money going? Sarita: Maybe. And so with that, of course I’m feeling guilt, he’s just trying to get outta this bind, and then I’m gonna be like, yeah, so can you help pay rent? Anne: But he doesn’t have any other expenses. Sarita: No, none. I’m sitting here thinking, how do you not have anything? Because you’ve been living with your parents for several years. Now you work two or three jobs. Where is all your money going? This isn’t adding up at all. It never did add up. He was supposed to move across the country to live by his son. I remember asking him, “I just don’t understand. I mean, you divorced almost three years. How do you not have the money to move?” Anne: What were his excuses? Sarita: He is essentially saying, “I’m the hero here of my son’s story, because I just don’t want him to grow up with all this pain and trauma. I wanted my son here with me, and I could have kept him here. I have spent a lot of time praying about this, and I knew that if my son grew up here, he would grow up with parents who fought all the time, even separated. And it wasn’t gonna be healthy for him.” Anne: If it’s used for manipulation, that’s the definition of taking God’s name in vain. He’s saying he prayed about it and God told him to do this, when that wasn’t the case. I realized I needed to leave Sarita: Yes, yes that’s exactly it. After we married, I told him, “You didn’t feel peace from God. You felt relief, because then you didn’t have to be a father.” I said, “I would be homeless before I go without my kids.” I finally knew that I needed to leave and that something needed to change when I was actually able to talk with his ex-wife on the phone a few times. I don’t think she could name it abuse. She would just name it as a bad fight. He grabbed her and threw her down to the floor. And another time, he held her up against the wall with his hand on her throat. And told her he was gonna pummel her face into the wall, things like that. This is a lot more serious than what I thought. I didn’t even realize how bad this was. I remember bringing this up to him, and he of course was like, that never happened. And I don’t know why she even said that. He would admit to some of it, he wouldn’t admit to all of it. That’s when I was like, wow, this is serious. At that time, we actually were headed for divorce. He filed, and were almost done with our divorce. Then we ended up getting back together. About two months later, I ended up pregnant. He was enraged. He told me it was my fault and apparently purposely got myself pregnant, accusation after accusation. Then he was like, “Is it even mine?” He stormed around the house and pouted, and the silent treatment for two days. I remember him saying to me, “So are you and the kids gonna find somewhere to live then?” He physically grabbed and shoved me Sarita: I knew I had to go when he physically grabbed me and shoved me. I obviously will not say that. He’s like, “I just moved you.” And I’m like, “No, no, no.” The force and aggression behind that was a lot. I looked into his eyes when he did it. And I knew in that moment, he wants to kill me right now. I saw this look in his eye of I just wanna hurt you. We moved the next morning with help from some of our church members and friends. They actually watched him and the way he was talking to me. And one of them later on ended up saying “I could see the abuse clear as day, just from how he was talking to you when we were moving. We could tell you were afraid of him. It was obvious. I felt so filled with fear. There were multiple occasions that he would show up at the house. And he’d be like, “I’m sorry, I need to grab something from the garage quick,” or “I just need to do this.” And there was one time when I came home from work and there were flowers on my table. I had this eerie feeling of oh my gosh, he was in my home. And like he’s trying to do this supposedly sweet thing for me. But I am terrified. After we separated, I was just looking for all the abuse resources out there. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I remember feeling very seen. There was an episode where another woman who married a couple of times. I thought, wow, this is not just me. I held a lot of shame around the fact that I didn’t learn the first time. He made sure he looked good on paper Sarita: I felt discredited for a long time. is the common denominator, she must be the problem. And that’s of course what many people think. They have no idea. When I found your podcast, I just remember listening to that episode and being like, holy crap. Finally, someone else gets it. I loved that episode, and it was comforting to know you are not the only one. So if you’re listening to this and have been in an abusive marriage, or an abusive relationship, I would say look at your own story. You’ll see a lot more clearly. You won’t have as much cognitive dissonance where his actions show you the complete opposite. He was on this whole, “I’m changing, I promise.” And he purchased this $5,000 course for men who try to change. He was making sure that it looked really good on paper. So he knows that one of my dreams one day is to have a huge ranch and have all these horses. So he’s like, “Honey, like I’m gonna work so hard so that you can have this dream.” He was just giving me this elaborate, “You deserve this. I wanna provide this for you, give this to you.” Sarita: Listening to your podcast, I was heavily on abuse. I totally knew. You’re not actually changing. But I remember in the moment I was like, he is love bombing me. He was future faking me. This is all fake. I was able to see clearly. I totally knew. You are doing this so that you can tell everyone else, “I tried, look at all along the things I did. I spent thousands of dollars and I put in so much work going to therapy.” I started to put up a lot of clear boundaries with him. How Education About Abuse Succeeded Where Marriage Infidelity Counseling Failed Sarita: He ended up signing away his rights during divorce. Because he kept pushing the whole, “Well, it’s not mine.” He already had it in his mind that I was this whore. Anne: Well, or he is just lying and saying that to blame you as a tactic, that’s probably more what it was. Sarita: I battled with. I don’t want all these people thinking I was messing around. But simultaneously, I also knew he’s probably already telling people that anyway. So like at this point, I might as well agree with him that this isn’t his baby and just move on. And my lawyer even said that because he could easily ask the judge for a paternity test, and the judge would grant it to him. So he’s not even putting in the effort or fight to make sure this is his child. Which my lawyer was like, “This tells me that he knows that it is. He just doesn’t want it to be.” And I knew that too. You could put a little skin in the game of trying to get the paternity test. To ensure this is your kid, because he did the same thing with his last child. He put in no effort whatsoever. Anne: But also, that benefited you. You don’t want them to put in the effort of marriage infidelity counseling. Sarita: And I knew he wouldn’t. He didn’t take responsibility for his first son, so why would he take responsibility now? And my lawyer was like, look, I’ve worked with countless abuse victims. And he was like, if he doesn’t think he’s the father, let’s just let him think that. Anne: Right, yeah, exactly. Agreeing he’s not the father Sarita: He reached out again to my lawyer and was like, “Are you sure she’s not willing to do a paternity test?” And my lawyer said, “No, she’s not willing.” So he said, ” Well, that’s really unfortunate, but I guess, I’m just gonna have to assume that I’m not the father.” And so my lawyer said to him, “Okay, we will agree with you that you are not the father of this child.” So then he signed the non-parentage statement. Anne: Oh, wow. Sarita: Yeah, he’s a ghost. The biggest thing with abuse and the hardest thing about it after my first marriage is that I wish I had found your podcast. I don’t think I would’ve found myself in another abusive marriage, because I think I would’ve seen it much more clearly. Anne: Well, thank you Sarita, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your bravery and sharing your strength with other women. Sarita: Yeah, Thank you so much. I appreciated it.

Learning how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship may seem confusing and overwhelming. Setting Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Establish Greater Safety Have you ever tried to set boundaries expecting more safety and security, only to feel more exposed to harm than ever? That’s because traditional boundary-setting models simply don’t work in abuse scenarios. Before I share what does work, here are a few resources: To find out if your husband is emotionally abusive (and if you even need to set boundaries), Learn how to set boundaries, click here take my free emotional abuse test. If you discover that he is emotionally abusive, and you want to go more in depth into how to set boundaries, my Living Free Workshop uses visuals to teach women how to set boundaries through easy to follow steps. Okay, so here’s what you need to know to set boundaries if your husband is emotionally abusive. Effective Boundaries are: Not communicated to the emotional abuser with words Courageous actions that evolve to fit YOUR emotional safety needs Essential to emotional and psychological safety Setting Effective Boundaries Does Not Include: If-then statements given to the abuser verbally or in writing Stating your values or what you need Telling him if he does it again, you’ll do something in response How To Set Boundaries in My Emotionally Abusive Relationship? Establishing effective safety boundaries is new territory for many women who find Betrayal Trauma Recovery. If you’re wondering how to set boundaries, begin this process, ask yourself these questions: What actions can I take today to begin creating more emotional & psychological safety for myself? How will I learn effective strategies to keep expanding my emotional & psychological safety? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you step-by-step how to set boundaries effectively and maintain boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship. Where will I seek support as I begin the process of establishing safety boundaries? We recommend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Elsa, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, shares how she learned how to set boundaries with her emotionally abusive husband. Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With An Emotionally Abusive Husband Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Elsa and talk about how to set boundaries. Welcome Elsa. Elsa: Thank you. Anne: She’s been a podcast listener for a long time. It’s always an honor to have podcast listeners on. So thank you so much for supporting the podcast by listening to it. Let’s start with your story. Tell me about the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Elsa: When I first met him, two days in, he told me something that wasn’t the truth. But I thought, “Wow, how vulnerable. He told me he cheated on a past partner.” One partner, one time.It’s grooming. I had no idea what grooming was, it was a way to get me to trust him. I thought, “He was up front and told me this information. It’s all there is. All the skeletons are out of the closet.” And they weren’t. Anne: If your husband is grooming, he makes you think, “No one who is a liar would tell me this . He must be telling the truth.” He tells a part of the truth that is the tip of the iceberg. If he told the truth, he’d say, “I look at pornography and masturbate every day. I’ve cheated on every partner. And I have every intention of cheating because I don’t want to be with one person.” But he doesn’t. He says just a tiny bit and then claims, “Now everything’s out on the table.” When He Gives You The Impression You Don’t Need To Learn How To Set Boundaries Elsa: It creates a false sense of safety, yeah. Anne: Exactly, then you are left wondering what to do when your husband betrays your trust.  Exactly, and it’s actually super scary because if it was before you were engaged, it’s really alarming that they think in these sick, twisted ways, like, “Oh, if I lie to her and she trusts me, that’s the kind of woman I wanna marry rather than a healthy person thinking, ” I would like a healthy relationship where we trust each other.” And you had no concrete reasons to learn how to set boundaries. Elsa: It was mind blowing that it was that planned and calculated. Before we married, I noticed some things regarding his behavior. There was an instance when he omitted some information. And I didn’t consider it abuse. I addressed it with him. He agreed and said I was right. I thought, that’s it. That’s solved. I felt like he heard me, and we moved on. After we married, I noticed he was more contemptuous when I brought things to him. And that’s when I started to have some questions and feel quite out of sorts because it felt like such a change from when we were dating. Anne: What was the nature of the information that he withheld? Elsa: We hadn’t dated that long, and I had a trip planned with a couple of my girlfriends to go to Europe. I’d be away for a couple of months. He said, would you want to be exclusive? It was like a big yes for me. But I felt like communication was difficult during the trip. I felt like he was hard to pin down. The Camping Trip Incident He said he was going to go camping one weekend. I had this gut feeling that he may go camping with somebody he worked with. Who was quite a bit younger than him. And I asked him if he did, and at first he said he went with just my dog because he was taking care of my dog. And then he said, “Oh, I went with some coworkers.” I found out the truth about six months later. That he had gone on a one-on-one camping trip with a 21 year old when he was in his mid thirties. So that’s obviously a red flag. But at the time, I was already pretty invested. And he denied anything happened. At first he understood, but after a few days of listening to my concerns about him withholding that information, he pressured me to “get over it.” And I worked through it. Anne: Yeah, under those circumstances, I would have been hard to figure out you needed to learn how to set boundaries. Did you ever find out later that there was something that happened between them? Elsa: Exactly. Looking back now and the knowledge I have, I think he was grooming that co-worker. So I think it probably confused her quite a bit, if I was to put myself in her shoes. He told me she shot him down and said no. Anne: Totally, so had he been able to, he would have. Trickle Disclosure & Manipulation Elsa: Yes, and he said that. Six months later. Anne: And then when they decide to tell you, it’s calculated to hurt you. When they feel like you’re maybe having a great day or something’s going well for you. They calculate it to hurt you. So can you tell me when he told you this? Elsa: He did do that to keep me kind of destabilized. This particular instance was before we got engaged. I think he was afraid I would leave him. So he told me he lied. And told me, “Now we have everything out in the open. Now you know everything.” It was a lie. I didn’t know how to set boundaries. How To Set Boundaries: Grooming Anne: What types of reasons did you give in the beginning for this behavior that seemed kind of off? How To Set Boundaries In Counseling Elsa: Before I met him, he’d been in the city with a lot of college students, young women, and he was in that kind of party atmosphere. So we were newly married and we moved to a different college town and his behavior towards me changed. I thought, “It’s probably me.” Plus, my husband says I was the problem too. And I wondered if I should go to therapy. And he said, “Yeah, I think you should.” So he really let me believe I needed therapy and I needed to do my own work. When You Blame Yourself So I started counseling, and he did come to some early counseling sessions with me. And we found out there was an addiction. Anne: Did you find the therapy helpful? Did the therapist talk about how how to set boundaries with your husband? Elsa: No. I was pregnant, feeling anxious in the pregnancy, and I wasn’t able to put my finger on what was going on. I worried about the impact on my unborn child. So the goal was to reduce my anxiety. Anne: Did you get diagnosed with anxiety at that time? Elsa: No, we used it for insurance purposes, but I’ve never had a diagnosis of anything. Anne: That’s good. So many women get diagnosed with something during this time because instead of their therapist saying, “This is your internal warning system telling you something’s wrong. You are reacting in a totally normal way. Let’s figure out why your warning system is going off.” Instead of saying that, the therapist is like, “You’re just another crazy woman who’s having too much anxiety and you’re hysterical for no reason.” Elsa: That’s the only message I was getting. Anne: So the therapist doesn’t help you figure out what’s going on. She doesn’t help you figure out that you’re abused or how to set boundaries. How did you discover his use? Was your husband on his phone all the time? Discovering Addiction Elsa: Turns out my gut is sensitive. So I kept bringing my concerns to him over and over. “Something doesn’t feel right. Something has changed.” Then one day I thought to ask him, “Do you look at inappropriate media?. And he said, “Yes, I do. So that I don’t bleep other women.” How To Set Boundaries: He Goes To SAA He shocked me. It’s a moment etched in my memory. I was shocked he never offered that information. That conversation never came up. Anne: Also, his opinion, his viewpoint, was that if he did not look at it, he did not have the integrity, ability, or adult skill of not having sex with someone who wasn’t his wife. That was his reasoning. “I’m looking at this awful stuff for you. because if I didn’t, I would be out having sex with other women. And you don’t want me to do that, do you?” Elsa: It was progress in his mind. Anne: That must have been devastating. I’m so sorry. When does the word addict come into play? Elsa: He told me he was a sex addict and I kind of laughed. I didn’t think it was a real thing. Then he said he was going to go to sex addicts anonymous. Much like when he confessed about the story about the 21 year old girl, I think he could sense that I would have him leave the house. And so he found SAA, and said, “I’m going to go.” And he went. At that point, I thought that was our only issue. I didn’t realize I needed to learn how to set boundaries. Trying Therapy But later, I found out it was much bigger than looking at exploitative material. I needed to protect myself by reading and learning how to set boundaries. Anne:  Oh yeah, for sure. This is a systemic issue and it breaks my heart when he lies. If he says he is an addict and he is gonna get help for addiction, the help for wives of addicts centers around sort of leaving him alone and staying on your side of the street and working on your “codependency” or your problems. If he’s abusive, you need someone to help you get off the street all together because none of it is you. Elsa: Yes, that’s what I was seeking from professionals. I didn’t get that. Once I knew he had an addiction, I started reading. And that was what was recommended. I didn’t feel safe around his counselor, who was not certified sex addiction therapist. But I was trying all these different things. Anne: Even if the person was a certified sexual addiction therapist, the likelihood of them identifying the abuse is next to zero, because they don’t see it as an abuse issue. They’re not certified abuse specialists. They’re certified sexual addiction therapists. So they’ll identify anything he does as an extension of the addiction. So they’ll say, “He’s in addict mode. He’s not in recovery.” Rather than, “He’s abusive.” Which is a totally different thing for a woman to hear. Separation & Escalation Elsa: For sure. Yeah. They didn’t tell me that. So he didn’t want to leave the comfort of the home. We had a loft in our garage. He’d go sleep out there. And I took a trip to California to visit a friend, to have some space. I had my daughter with me. And when I came back, he picked us up at the airport. He barely acknowledged me. There was a lot of feeling of contempt. And I was like, I want him out of the home. So I told him, and he raged and tore things apart in the house. And I did call the police. They came. He left after that for two months. He still had access to my daughter, he’d still come and get her, but we had no interaction. Anne: So you’re starting to learn how to use boundaries to separate yourself from his harm at this point. Elsa: Totally. So fast forward a couple months. He’s still coming to get my daughter, but I try to have little to no contact with him in that exchange. Then we’re at church on Easter and I walk by where my daughter is in the playroom, and he’s standing at the doorway of the playroom. It was so pleasant to talk with him. And he was so kind, he says he’s sorry. So from there, we started communication again. How To Set Boundaries: False Hope Of Reconciliation And we start to move forward and repair our relationship. And he eventually moved in after about a month. We were together for another six months, and it got worse. It got much worse. H e cut off all communication I had with his counselor. She would allow me to call her, still no knowledge of how to set boundaries. He didn’t allow me to talk to her. He wouldn’t talk to anybody in the church with me. And he wouldn’t let me be around if he was talking to his sister. She was a bit older than him, and was a support to me. So I was basically completely isolated and the abuse escalated. So he was going on a trip to see his family. And I just knew. So I said, “When you leave this time, you’re not coming back in the home.” When he first left, all I could think about was, how do I keep my daughter close to him? How do I make this work for him? Final Decision To Divorce My whole way of thinking was what would he want? And then I started to think about what I wanted and what brings me peace. And that led me to make some choices for myself and my daughter. I didn’t tell him that I changed my plan to move back to Canada, where I’m a citizen. I was authorized to work in the United States. He thought I would continue to pursue my green card, and he could help me so that I could remain in the United States. He believed he still had a certain amount of control over me, but I took action, which is how to set boundaries. When he found out, he was obviously upset, but it protects me. I’m not a citizen in the US and I don’t have any support. Anne: And protected you from prolonged legal abuse in terms of the divorce. But maybe not in terms of custody, because I have a feeling that you’re going to bring up custody. Because this guy sounds like a coercive controller. It’s strange, because they do things that seem stupid, because it’s hurting them. But it’s also hurting you. Finding Support Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Anne: It also seems smart. Women in this situation are usually like, how can you be so smart and so stupid simultaneously? Elsa: It’s a question that’s crossed my mind, yeah. Elsa: I lived, in the northern states near the Canadian border. I just couldn’t find anything in the city for support. I mentioned he started SAA. They did have a group. Then I found a COSA group of about four or five women in that area. I just didn’t find that I got much from it. So I started looking for podcasts. And I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Being so isolated, it was my main support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast helped me connect the dots. I did read some books, but I would say the podcasts from Betrayal Trauma Recovery were the main thing that kept me rooted in reality. Where I was like, “Yes, this matches.” When You Can’t Find the Right Support To Set Boundaries Because like you said, in certain parts of COSA helped kind of. But then listening to the podcast and the different people you would have on was the main thing that rooted me in reality of what I was experiencing. It was like a big, yes, this fits with what I’m experiencing. And that’s what helped me in a lot of my decision making. His counselor didn’t know about the podcast. But it threatened him that I was learning what I was learning. His counselor even said to him at one point, “She’s reading these books. She’s reading these books.” Like it threatened him cause then I was no longer trapped in the chaos. Anne:  When you found the BTR podcast was it? Kind of revelatory? Like, was it something totally new that you hadn’t thought of or heard before? Or was it something that you did know inside, but you just didn’t know you knew it? Elsa: I’d say the latter, for sure. How To Set Boundaries: Realizing The Extent Of Abuse I work in healthcare, I have some knowledge of like, mental health. So, as I started to listen to it, I’m like, Yes, this makes sense as to what I already know. Like I I knew about attachment and addiction . it was like I knew it was ill treatment but I didn’t think it was as calculated as it was. BTR episodes started to put pieces together. Anne: When women find the podcast, they’re like, “Yes!” Like they knew it. But they didn’t have words for it or couldn’t bring it to the surface. And they’re also like, “What!? How did I not know?” That’s how I felt. I was like, how am I a college graduate with a master’s degree who doesn’t want to be abused? And not realize I’m being abused? This is crazy. It’s both like, “I knew it.” And then like, “How did I not know it?” at the exact same time? And it’s such a strange place to be, where at least I felt so stupid that I didn’t see it. But then also not stupid at all because I’d never been educated about it. And all the abuse checklists are like, does he control your transportation? And you’re like, no, does he trap you in a room? No. I mean, maybe he might trap you in a room. I’m not saying he wouldn’t. I’m just saying the classic abuse checklists didn’t seem to fit my situation. It was just confusing. The Role Of Feelings In Identifying Abuse Elsa: The idea of secret keeping his “power over” resonated with me. I’m like, yeah. Because at first I thought he didn’t realize it was painful for me. Or he didn’t realize the depth of the impact of his actions. But then I circled around to the fact that I didn’t matter to him. Anne: He uses your feelings against you to control you. Elsa: Yeah, and that. Anne: Rather than listening or caring about your feelings. So the only reason he pays attention to your feelings is to manipulate you, control the situation and the narrative. And that’s where women, well meaning, awesome, caring women, don’t know what they’re dealing with. So of course, they’re going to share their feelings with their husband. Because they think in sharing their feelings, they can resolve the issue. They want to know if their abusive husband is changing. But with an abuser sharing your feelings, it is literally offering them a list of how to manipulate you better. That’s why it’s so important to know what you’re looking at. Boundaries & Responses Elsa: For sure, yeah. Trust your gut. How do you feel around him? That was a big one for me. I never felt calm, I always felt like something wasn’t right. During our divorce, the lawyers said, “Let’s subpoena his bank records.” So I’m like, “Okay, sure.” And his bank records showed he was at a college bar every night. Then, he started to really just harass me a lot through the parenting app. We had created this parenting plan when we lived in, in the U.S. Which was a part of how to set boundaries. And when the borders finally opened and we moved , we had no idea of the impact it would have on my daughter. She was barely two at the time. I worked full time, and she was in daycare full time. It was a rigorous schedule for her. Two nights a week, she’d have to be away from home for 12 hours. We’d have to meet him at this neutral location. It’s dark. It’s raining. The roads are bad. How To Set Boundaries: Using the Parenting App For Documentation As much feedback as I gave him: that this was so hard on her. Can we please figure out a different way for him to get that one and a half hour visit by extending his weekend visits or something, he just wouldn’t budge. And he could see the difficulty for her in terms of her sleep schedule. Anne: And for you. Elsa: Exactly. He knew, and he didn’t care if it was hard on me. And she was just a byproduct of that. So that went on for about six months. And then I just said, “Enough.” I learned how to set boundaries from BTR, from you and your podcast and your group sessions. I said, “You can take me to court, but I’m decreasing this to one night a week on her weeknights.” And he was a lot of a lot of talk, but then no action. Because if you get down to the truth of everything, of what he actually wants. It’s not that extra one and a half hours. It was more like you said, it was impacting our lives. We had no free time, we’re exhausted all the time. He thought it was fun to make us miserable.  A lot of crazy making in that he’ll say, “You never give me any time, da da da.” At first I was over explaining and deflecting, and now I don’t do any of that. The parenting app has been so great because it’s all there. It’s all documented. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free & Message Strategies It’s valid to look back and go, this is all the times I offered.  He knows he doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away. He doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away. Anne: I love that you’re using The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies. That is awesome. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you how to think about the abuser, so that you can respond to them in a way that protects you. And learn how to set boundaries. Where he can’t actually cross them. Elsa: I love that. Anne:  It is hard ’cause the way other therapists teach boundaries, women are like, “But he keeps crossing my boundaries.” And that’s because the way the therapists teach it is not helpful to victims of abuse. Because it’s possible to set boundaries where he actually can’t cross them. How To Set Boundaries: Do Not Believe Your Abuser And women who take the Living Free Workshop learn, in your case, you were like, okay, he’s threatening to take me to court, he wants me to be terrified of losing my daughter. He’s threatening me so I’ll do what he wants. So I’m just gonna say, “Sounds good. This is my attorney’s phone number. Let me know how it goes.” I mean, some will take you to court, but the majority of them think the threats in and of themselves will work, and they don’t actually wanna spend the time and money and energy to take you to court because in reality, their actions rarely match their words. In that way, women can be delivered because the strategy is not believing them. The Importance of Boundaries Elsa: Exactly. What you said about the boundaries, I think of that all the time. I share it with other people, because I learned it from you and the podcast. And The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because many people think it’s a lot of words to describe your boundary. I love that it’s an action, an action you take.I advocate for myself and my daughter. I have the documentation to support decisions. So I’ve protected myself that way. Anne:  Yeah, that’s the only thing that will actually protect you. Like in the beginning, you’re trying to figure out, is this abuse? What’s going on? If you’re using the Living Free strategies, you don’t have to ask him, “Hey, are you abusive?” Or tell him, “this is abuse.” You don’t have to bring it up. You can just observe. And you can see that he’s abusive. If you see that he’s abusive, you need to get to safety. But you don’t need to say anything about it. And if you tell them your boundary, it’s a big giant flag that says, “Hey, this is how to abuse me.” So once you know they’re an abuser, you never want to tell them. Elsa: I learned that from you too. I had to go through some of the documentation recently. And I think it was over 30 counts of him accusing me of being a parental alienator and narcissist. And I don’t comment. There’s no point, but yeah, he heavily projects on me that I’m mentally unstable. I learned from you To Focus On How I Feel Setting boundaries has protected my peace because otherwise, he’s always diminishing me or invalidating me. Or make snide remarks about, or attack, your character. Before I just believed him when he said he loved me and he wouldn’t do it again. But now, he can’t do it to me. I’ve even watched my own daughter tell him no, like on a video call. Like she says, “No I don’t like that book.” And there he goes again, telling her “Of course you like it. You just don’t know that you do yet.” It’s constant harassment to her. So now that I know how to set boundaries because I learned that from The Living Free Workshop, I don’t have to experience that anymore because I protect myself from him. Anne: I’m so glad the strategies worked for you. I’ve heard that from so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to talk with us today. Elsa: Yeah, thank you so much for everything.

 Many women ask, “What if my husband says he doesn’t love me??” It will surprise you to know that it’s actually a lie. Here’s what you need to know. Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? To see if you can recognize the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What to Do When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Anne: Today we’re gonna cover what happens when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Denise. This happened to her. Here’s a preview of what she said. “I felt like he hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him , “When did your heart turn against me?” So then he tells me…” You’ll find out what he tells her later on in the story. If this has happened to you, where your husband has told you he doesn’t love you anymore. Here are two things to consider. Number one, get educated about emotional and psychological abuse because there’s a chance that this is part of your story, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You’ll hear about how Denise’s husband used two psychological abuse tactics: mirroring and countering. So as you listen, see if you can identify when that happens. And number, two is to observe their actions. And I’ll talk more about that in today’s interview. So welcome, Denise. When your Husband Says He doesn’t Love you Denise: Yeah, I met my ex online. I was in my 40s and had never been married. I always said I didn’t want to get married until I met the one. Like, the one, and I made sure, because I didn’t want a bad marriage. Um, turns out that I apparently didn’t know what that looked like. So Yeah, he’d been, married before, was a widower, he took care of his late wife, and, seemed to be financially responsible. The first date was great. But then on the next date, we went for a hike, and I was asking him questions, and he couldn’t answer simple questions, like, what’s your favorite movie? Maybe He’s Just Not Ready Denise: The third date was just awkward, something feels off. And I told him I wouldn’t date him. I didn’t think he was ready for a relationship, like maybe he needed to heal some more. Anne: How long after his wife’s death did you start? Denise: Like three and a half months So I told him I wouldn’t date him. But we were hanging out as friends and we would argue all the time. People would say, “what are you arguing about?” Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know what we were arguing about. It was really confusing to me because I’m not a really argumentative person, but for some reason I was drawn to him. His Sudden Heart Change: Maybe He Does Love Me Denise: And then all of a sudden, literally one day, he changed and there was no more arguing. It was almost like this happy wife, happy life thing. I thought okay, he hadn’t dated in a long time, that was a fluke. That’s what I thought. That was a fluke. He’s realized he was just being an idiot and now he’s ready to step up and be himself and be respectful. Anne: Wow! That was a sudden heart change. Denise: Yes, exactly. And then after that, we got along really well. I had so much fun. Looking back now, I can see things that I didn’t notice at the time, but at the time, everything seemed great. I just kept telling people like how blessed I was. This was amazing. His friends were all telling me how wonderful he was and random people we would meet would tell me like, “you are lucky, he is a good man.” My family loved him. I mean, it was like everybody. No one thought there would be a time where I’d have to figure out what to do if he said he didn’t love me anymore. No one ever thought something like that would ever happen. Anne: Did he have kids from his first marriage? Denise: He did. They were preteen, and early teen. His Sudden Heart Change: Confusion Denise: There were a couple of little other flukes that happened while we were dating or after we were engaged and I thought they were flukes, one of them happened when my niece was graduating from college and I wanted to go to her graduation. We were engaged at the time and he had never been to that area of the United States. So, he’s like, “why don’t you plan the trip then, since you’ve been there before and we can do our family vacation and go to your niece’s graduation at the same time.” I’m like, Oh, that would be wonderful. Like I’d been there. He hadn’t. So, we asked the kids if they wanted to do anything like specific in that area. They didn’t want to look anything up. So I was like, I guess I’m planning it. And he was like, “I trust you.” So, we go on this trip and he starts getting angry at me for not having planned it better and I was like, really confused. That’s what a lot of this whole thing was, a lot of confusion. Like, you asked me to plan it, if you wanted to do it a certain way, you should have stepped in and planned it yourself or said you wanted something else. I mean, it’s common sense. I saw on that trip what he was just, angry, bitter, and yelling at me. Pre-Wedding Tensions Denise: That was, before the wedding and I thought it was a one off. Anne: like a fluke. Denise: Mm hmm. And then, there was one more that I see now as major. I thought it was him being under a lot of stress. It was right before the wedding. He said he wanted our bank accounts to be merged, which is what I wanted. I wanted 100 percent commitment, all in, everything shared. I wanted to be a stay at home mom. That was my goal. He was totally up for that. So, right before the wedding, he starts getting angry that he’s paying more for the wedding than I am. And I was like, weird, cause we’re merging everything. He wasn’t arguing that he didn’t want something at the wedding. He was saying he wanted me to pay for it. Anne: Are you okay if we pause right here? Denise: totally Mirroring Explained Anne: This is how mirroring works. He’s not gonna tell you how he feels until you tell him how you feel, so he can just mirror back to you your own interests and your own opinions. So he’s gonna find out what your favorite movie genre is, and then he’s gonna say, me too. He’s gonna wait until he knows how you feel about politics. And then he’s going to mirror your opinions back to you. And then later he’ll have a “change of heart”  when really he didn’t have those opinions in the first place. So in terms of choosing a good husband, if you’re thinking about dating or getting to know someone, try asking them questions like this before you tell them how you feel and see how they respond. Denise: That actually makes complete sense. I hadn’t thought of it in that way but now that you say that, I was thinking back, like, after I told him what my favorite movie was, then he said that he liked that one too. Most everything, it seemed like it was a fluke that he liked the same things I did, it was like, oh my , we’re like exactly the same. This is crazy. I’m like, yeah, this is crazy. I never, imagined that we would like this many things the same. Countering Explained Anne: So when you talked about this period of time where you were just friends and he was arguing with you quite a bit. My guess is that he was countering. Countering is an abuse tactic where they counter basically, everything you say. It’s very similar to like a 15 year old. My son counters right now from time to time, cause he’s 15 and I’m like legit every single thing I’m saying you’re disagreeing with. And he’s like, “no, I’m not.” I’m like, there you go again. This is happening right now. It’s a really immature way of trying to overpower somebody else. He was countering maybe, to determine how confident you were in your opinions. And when he realized you’re very confident in your opinions, he also realized he wasn’t gonna be able to groom you that way. And then, he made an abrupt heart change to acting kind and egalitarian. That’s where you saw that shift when he realized you weren’t looking for the strong, like take charge type. She’s looking more for a partner. It sounds like it was either arguing or everything was perfect. Denise: Yeah, that is how it felt and that’s the way it was. It was extreme. Better Communication Won’t Make His Heart Change Anne: They use communication in this way to manipulate. That’s why learning to communicate better doesn’t solve an abuse problem, and that’s why the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free strategies are so important. Using those strategies will help you see what their true intent is and what they’re actually doing. So he was using those tactics on you, and you didn’t realize it because, why would you? We’re not educated on what to do if he says doesn’t love us. Did you know about any porn use? Denise: That was really important for me to talk to him about before the wedding. He said he had a box of Playboys in the basement. And he was like, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that, I just need to destroy those.” So he told me he burned all of them and I tried really hard not to push him, because I wanted anything like that to come from him. He wasn’t Catholic. I didn’t ask him to become Catholic. I just told him going to church was really important to me and going together was really important to me. So we went to both churches. His Sudden Heart Change: Post-Wedding Denise: But then, I noticed on the honeymoon that he was doing things on purpose to hurt me. Like there were things before that hurt me, you know, I didn’t like that, or we need to work on this. He would like, abruptly turn away from me in bed, just like a rejection. And I told him I didn’t like it and he just kept doing it. I was like, okay, this is meant to hurt me, which was very shocking to me because I thought I married my knight in shining armor, the countering got so bad while we were… I don’t even like to say intimate because it wasn’t reality, like within weeks of the wedding, he was screaming at me, telling me that I was selfish and that I didn’t care about him. I’m like, what is happening here? Screaming isn’t one of the types of physical intimacy, haha. I am super confused. I mean, you know, you’ve been through it, all the torture, the angst. Anne: So when he starts doing this on the honeymoon during intimate times, and I agree with you, calling it intimacy is like a joke because it wasn’t intimate at all, and you recognize this is on purpose. What did you think was the cause of this sudden heart? Denise: I just thought he needed healing, you know, he had a rough childhood. He was married. She was ill for a long time. He said she was depressed all the time and then she passed away. Raising his kids on his own, like he couldn’t handle stuff. Financial Control And Isolation after he says he Doesn’t Love You Denise: At this point I had lost my job. We had spent all of my money on groceries. My bank accounts were empty. I had absolutely nothing. He wouldn’t put me on the accounts. He kept saying he was going to like, “Oh, I forgot. Oh, we should have done that.” So, I had no income, no job, and no money in the bank. I’m destitute. At this point, I had already had one miscarriage, and I took another pregnancy test. It was negative, but he thought it was positive and he thought I was pregnant. He was like, “yeah, I think you should leave.” Anne: And you’ve been single, so you’re used to being independent. You’re used to to paying your own bills. And then to be in this vulnerable position of realizing that your husband doesn’t love you for the first time must have felt like a trap. Denise: yeah. Different Paths and No Mercy When He says he Doesn’t Love You anymore Anne: that is shocking. Denise: But I thought we were on the same path going the same direction and there were these like little jolts off of the path, but that he really wanted to be on that path and he would come back and we would keep moving in the same direction. Four months after the wedding, things had gotten so bad. He was screaming at me all the time. I kind of laugh, but it’s not funny at all. I mean, I look back and I’m just like, what the heck? It was just insane. He kept bringing up that trip we had taken, blaming me because we didn’t do things that were kid friendly and, literally, I was begging him, like, I’m trying to be the best mom and wife that I can be please give me some mercy. For, not knowing what the kids would enjoy, like I’m doing the best I can, yeah, I’m going to fail. I’m not perfect. Don’t you think I deserve a little bit of mercy? And in front of one of his kids, he said, “you don’t deserve mercy.” It’s just like, there’s nowhere to go, nowhere to go with that. Facing The Truth When Your Husband has stopped loving you Anne: So, at this point, when you see that your husband says he’s had a drastic heart change, what did you do? Denise: I finally started telling people what was going on. And I have a few friends who told me about the cycle of abuse. I didn’t have any bruises or anything, I was confused, and knew this wasn’t healthy. So, I looked it up and I was like, this is exactly what’s happening, but It’s not just like I’m dating and he’s abusive to me. There was a wedding. And of course, like most women do, oh, but this is the way he was. Is he going to get back to this point? So, when I was shown the truth, I started searching for a therapist and trying to do everything I could to to heal it. Seeking Help and Therapy When He Doesn’t Love You anymore Denise: During the time that we were together, we saw four different therapists. Three of them sided with him, even after he was either abusive to me in front of them or he told them he was abusive to me. They still sided with him. At one point he is sitting face to face, my hands in his hands and he’s telling me how much he loves me and he’s so sorry and one therapist was like, “don’t you hear him? Can’t you hear him?” I was just like, I don’t even know if he means it right now, but in five minutes he’s not going to, that’s the problem. And she didn’t get it. Anne: This is crazy pants! Were you surprised at how unhelpful therapy was? Because couples therapy is kind of like everybody’s solution. And many therapists don’t consider the possibility that your husband doesn’t love you or he is abusive if he’s coming to couples therapy with you. Denise: Yes. One of the questions I asked before we chose this therapist was, “Can you spot narcissism?” Anne: Did she say yes? Denise: Of course, of course, they all say yes. And after that, she wouldn’t even answer my calls. I think she was probably so confused by the whole thing. Anne: It’s really hard when you go to someone for help, and you have to educate them about what’s happening rather than the other way around. First Attempt to Leave Denise: Then about a month later, I left him the first time. I called someone to tell them I was leaving and that I was worried about his kids. This person told me, “we all knew it wasn’t going to work out…He was completely fake the whole time you were dating.” I was like, why didn’t anybody tell me this? They said it was “because they were afraid that, he wouldn’t let them have a relationship with the kids.” But this person hadn’t been really nice to me. So I was like, Oh, do I trust this person or not? I have no idea. Are they playing me? I must’ve been looking up betrayal trauma, and I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and I ended up listening quite a bit. I was able to use all the tools from the betrayal podcast and from the group, because I was in the group a total of a year and a half. Going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions was so enlightening. I could not have done this without BTR.ORG. Unfortunately, after that, he was like, “there’s this retreat thing. A Catholic retreat for people on the verge of the decision to divorce, to try to heal the relationship.” And they say in there, “if there’s abuse, this doesn’t work.” So he set it up. We went to that and he said, “I want this, I want to be with you, blah, blah, blah,” and of course, he acted like everything was great and we’re all healed. That was right when all the COVID lockdowns were just starting and I was like, I should be with him to figure this out. Temporary Reconciliation Denise: So, I moved back. and it was actually decent, for quite a while. And then eight months later, it started going downhill really fast. So I was trying to get to another therapist and on the same day that we’re meeting with a therapist, he tells me he has a meeting with a divorce lawyer. Just like why are we meeting with a therapist if you’re meeting with a divorce lawyer, and then he told one of his kids he was divorcing me. I felt like this guy hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him, when did you stop loving me? Because I still didn’t understand that it was all fake beforehand. My Heart Change: The Breaking Point Denise: So then, he tells me that it was at our reception. Anne: Your wedding reception?! Denise: Yes…I know, right?! Anne: What in the world?! Denise: …He overheard this friend saying, “she’s got herself a sugar daddy.” And that was it, according to him, which is just a lie anyway. Like, you don’t turn against your spouse because somebody makes a joke! Anne: yeah. Denise: Even if you don’t like the joke. Anne: No. Denise: Yeah. I was just in shock, and I was like, well, the timeline makes sense. The Real Timeline of “He doesn’t love me anymore” Unveiled Anne: The true timeline was the second he married you, he was like, now I don’t have to wear the mask anymore. Denise: Yeah. Anne: “She’s stuck with me.” So that’s the real timeline. After the reception, he didn’t feel like he had to treat you well anymore. Not that he overheard somebody tell a joke. Denise: Yeah. I think honestly, he was telling people negative things about me before the wedding. There were people who weren’t going to go to our wedding, because they didn’t like that he was marrying a Catholic. It didn’t cross my mind that he would be complaining about me to his friends. So, a lot of his friends didn’t want to come to the wedding. If he says he doesn’t love you, it could be Manipulation Anne: Um, through all the interviews I’ve done, I see a lot of patterns. One I see frequently is goldfish brain. They only care about the thing they want in the moment, like right then, like what is right in front of them. And so they’ll say something to get that thing. And then literally two hours later, they’ll want something else, hence the heart change. So, they’ll say the opposite thing to get the other thing, and it’s so confusing. So, to have him throw you under the bus at his own wedding, thinking that’s going to benefit him somehow, while also grooming you long term…this is a sure sign that he never loved you. There’s these two simultaneous things that seem contradictory, but they have a goal in mind and they play the long game to get what they want. They’re able to groom you until they get what they want. It just shows how unsafe the situation is for you, psychologically and emotionally. Denise: Yeah, it’s just some crazy stuff so, I ended up leaving again. Financial Abuse Exposed Denise: We ended up going to counseling and while we were in front of this counselor he tells me that “he took all of the money out of the account so that I couldn’t have anything.” I had a new job at this point and I was making a decent amount of money. But he says that in front of the counselor. This is financial abuse. Anne: Absolutely, yeah! Therapist’s Denial Denise: I mean, he said it right in front of the counselor. So months later, when I was trying to get the counselor to write something for me the counselor said, “well, I can’t lie and say he was abusive.” Anne: WHAT?!! Denise: I was like, I’m not asking you to lie. He was abusive right in front of you. He told me in front of you that he took all the money out of the joint account so that I wouldn’t get any. Didn’t you take notes? He never responded. Anne: He wouldn’t even admit your husband doesn’t love you?! Denise: Guess not. Anne: Sorry. This is the woman who’s always telling people therapists don’t get it and I’m like, what? Denise: And then you’re shocked. Yeah. Yeah. Anne: It’s still shocking. When it’s clear…I’m thinking that he’s financially abusive in my head and I’m not saying that out loud. But then, to hear that a therapist just completely doesn’t acknowledge that it’s abuse, is so crazy. Denise: Yeah, I was in like crazy land. Separation and Counseling When He says he Doesn’t Love You Denise: So we’re apart and I’m in my own apartment. I think I just knew myself well enough, that I had to keep trying until I got to a point where I was absolutely sure this was never going to work. So we were apart for like 10 months. I told him I wasn’t going to move back into that other house it’s like, I’m not moving back in there. These are the things I need. While we’re apart, I’m going to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions that are super helpful and really eye opening, but I didn’t quite get it. Then, we ended up getting this house, everything fell into place. I told him, do you really want this? Because if this happens again, I’m leaving and it’s for good. There’s not going to be any more back and forth. He said, “This is it. And of course, oh, yeah, of course. I’m so sorry and all this stuff.” He doesn’t love me anymore: False Promises and Conversion Denise: He decided to become Catholic, so he started learning about the faith and going to church. And he’s like, will you be my sponsor? I’m like, no, if you’re doing this, you’re doing it on your own, cause I knew if I helped in any way he would accuse me of forcing him. So I was like, if you want to become Catholic, that’s your own thing. I never asked you to do it. I’m not pushing you. So he went through the whole process and became Catholic and things got, you know, “better and better.” Denise: And, um, yeah, within nine months, I moved out again. My heart Change: Realization and Education Anne: That point, you’d been going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions. You’d been more educated about abuse from hearing other women’s stories on this betrayal podcast. So at this point, was it a little bit, I don’t want to say easier cause it’s never easy. And I don’t want to say that it ever is easy. There seems to be some kind of point where it clicks that he never loved you, he’s abusive, and I need to make some changes. At least there was for me where I just knew I wasn’t going to do it anymore. And up until that point, I don’t know if I could have anything else. You know, I was doing the very best I could. Denise: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was abuse. My friends knew it was abuse. Understanding Abuse Cycles When He says he doesn’t love you Denise: I thought the abuse was happening more often and getting worse over time. We were weaning out of this abusive pattern is what I thought. And so I was like, all right, we’ll just deal with it when we’re in this abusive pattern. Observing and Setting Boundaries Denise: He started seeing a counselor he liked, and things got better. I saw the changes, but I didn’t feel as confident about it as I did before. Before I would argue. When I went back, I was like, I’m not arguing anymore. I’m just going to state what I need and want. That’s it. Then, when I went back the second time, I understood to observe. And then I knew it was time to get out of there. It wasn’t safe. Confrontation with the Priest Denise: He was going to see the priest. And I said, I wanted to go too. So, we went, and literally he was screaming at me the whole time. The priest stood in front of him and tried to talk about integrity. He looked frustrated and finally asked my ex, “Do you even want to be married?” And my ex with this shocked look on his face was like, “Yes. Like, how could you ask that?” Anne: Like, he’s saying, “your husband doesn’t love you. It seems like he hates your guts.” Denise: Right. My ex said he felt trapped. And I was like, then leave! And he wouldn’t leave, I’m like, what is happening? Denise: Yeah. It’s so like ridiculous. Then the priest looked at me and asked, “Do you want to be married?” But I knew if I said no, that would start a ball rolling that I wasn’t ready for. Preparing To Leave Denise: So, I said, I’m not quite sure and, then I got my papers together, got them out of the house, did everything that I could. One of the kids went out with his family, and I thought, “I need to wait until he comes back.” I wanted him to return to school and get comfortable before I left. So, I waited another four or five days, which felt so hard. During that time, I kept telling him, “You’re going down this road, and you need to remember what I said.” If I leave, it’s going to be for good. Is that what you really want? Because that’s the direction you’re choosing. I could have left at any time, but I was praying like, I want the time that’s the best for me, that’s going to be best for the kids. If there is such a thing, that’s when I want to leave. The Decision to Leave When Your Husband is incapable of loving you Denise: And all of a sudden one morning it was like, today. I’m like, all right, today. I’m leaving today. Anne: You bring up a good point, because so many women share, and I was this way, too. It just didn’t feel right to leave and I honor that. And then, at the same time, it’s abuse. There’s no part where you’re going to feel like this is great. It’s just always going to feel terrible. And then, you just realize that he’s never been capable of loving anybody. Denise: Yeah. And it’s never the wrong time to leave either. It’s not like you have to stay until, you know, you can leave whenever. I didn’t think God wanted me in an abusive relationship, and you need this one more little bit of abuse and then you’re good to go or anything like that. You know, I just felt like, all right, I’m good to go. Like I’m ready and it’s time. So, that’s when I left. Biblical Insight When your Husband chooses not to love you Denise: I wanted to see what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse. So I found these verses and I want to read you. I don’t hear anybody talking about. And to me, it has spoken volumes. Anne: Yes, please. Denise: It’s Second Timothy, chapter three, verses one through nine in the revised standard Catholic edition. “In the last days, there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers.” I don’t even know what this word is, “profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form religion, but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.” I found that and like, a light came down from heaven. It seems to describe narcissism. Anne: Perfectly. Denise: Yeah, perfectly. I don’t know why nobody else is quoting that. And then it says, leave them. Like, don’t be around these people. Anne: I love that scripture. I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted it on the betrayal podcast, but I’m familiar with it for that same reason. Scriptures say all over the place, separate yourself from wickedness repeatedly, over and over. When he can’t love, it’s wickedness. It’s shocking that no one calls these guys wicked. Here’s why. Denise: Yeah. It explains a lot of what evil looks like, and it looks exactly like narcissism. Really intelligent, but at the same time, this four year old tantrum. Anne: Yes. Facing Evil When Your Husband Hates you Denise: Yeah, I would describe my experience as being toe to toe with evil. It’s not For the weak hearted. Anne: No. Women who come and share their story, like you have seen evil, looked evil in the face and had to figure out what to do. When he has never loved us, we felt tricked, but we still tried to do the right thing. It’s so much more difficult than anyone can imagine. Personal Growth Through Adversity When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Denise: Like at the time, and for a long time afterward, I would not have said this, but I actually am at the point where I look back and I’m like, I like who I am so much better after having gone through this evil situation. If I had to choose between who I was before and who I am now, I would pick who I am now. To become this person, I had to go through this situation, but I would do it all over again. It was hard, but it helped me grow and change for the better. And I think that’s a testament to God, his whole goal is for us to have good, and can bring good out of any horrendous situation. Anne: I get it especially when women are new and they’re not safe yet. The idea that an experience can make someone a better person sounds unfair. It feels like saying, “If you were the person you should be, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” This puts the blame on the person, which isn’t right. Or alternatively, women who are thinking they have to suffer through this, thinking they don’t deserve safety and that God is like using their suffering to make them a better person. God doesn’t want you to suffer because your husband doesn’t love you. He knows you’re not a bad person, and you didn’t deserve this to make you better. You’re a wonderful person now, he loves you just the way you are. And through this awful experience, we do learn interesting things that I’m grateful for. I am grateful that I am the person I am now. Because of what I went through, I have a heart change that values my safety. Practical Lessons Learned When he can’t love Denise: I learned a few practical things. Now, I can see similar situations that I didn’t notice before. I noticed that some people in my life made me feel unsafe, so I decided to cut them out. Now I feel better and more at peace. Before, I didn’t understand that. After I left the last time, I thought I would finally feel relief, but I didn’t. That’s when I saw that a few other people treated me the same way, or in a very similar way. And, it was painful to cut them out, but after I cut them out, I felt the relief. Anne: And that’s why we’re here. Getting to safety is such an individual journey for everyone. The only thing any of us can do on this path is continue to listen to our internal warning system (see our educational infographics about betrayal on Instagram) that is telling us if we’re safe or not, and continue to evolve our boundaries until we feel that relief. It’s our own version of a heart change for the better. And I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. And then you still don’t feel relief and then you try again and it still isn’t quite working and then you try again like, just as an example, that, Catholic retreat you went to for couples on the verge of divorce. Resisting and Evolving: A heart Change When he doesn’t love you Anne: Did you know that was you resisting this abuse? That was you recognizing that he never loved you, and evolving, having your own heart change.At the time, you thought, “Maybe this couple’s retreat will help me find safety.” And then you learn from experience that it didn’t. So, then you evolved and said, “Okay, now I know I can’t go to therapy with him at all, because he hasn’t had a heart change that made me feel safe.” We grow and change over time. Now, you might say, “I feel relief and safe.” For me, I felt relief when I used the Living Free strategies and gained full custody of my kids. After my divorce, someone hurt me for eight years. I kept wondering, “How can I find real safety?” Then, I found a way to take control and create a safe life for myself and my kids. Support and Solidarity When he says he Doesn’t Love You Anne: I’m so glad that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was helpful to you. Denise: Yeah, it was a lifesaver. I went to groups. For a while I went once a day, and then, the second time I joined, it was a few times a week. The coaches were always amazing and so kind, but also firm and direct. Hearing from the other women really helped me, because you’re in this bubble, kind of, in your relationship. I don’t want to really call it a relationship, in your situation, like you’re the only one experiencing it, so you don’t see all the nuances. I really think evil is not creative. It feels like the same thing keeps happening again and again. That’s why so many stories seem so similar. I remember someone saying she thought she lost something. She searched and searched for it for a long time. Suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s what the hiding was about!” It made me remember, “That happened to me, and I didn’t even know it was abuse.” Learning the right words for these things has helped me so much. I am Catholic, and I’m going through the annulment process right now. Thanks to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I learned terms like “mirroring” and “future faking.” With this knowledge, I feel confident and clear as I write my annulment letter. It was helpful to wrap my mind around the truth of this situation, that my husband doesn’t love me. The Truth Will Set You Free: Your Heart Change When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Anne: I’m so glad it was helpful. My whole goal in life is to help women see the truth, like your husband doesn’t love you or whatever the truth is. Whether it’s painful or not. The Living Free Workshop strategies are a way to observe from a safe distance, so that women see the truth, and have their own heart change for their safety. I’m so glad that you’re safe it’s such a brave thing to share your story and it will help a lot of women. So thank you. Denise: And thank you for everything you do. You’re very courageous. I tell so many women about Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

When a woman finds out her husband has been lying, one question she usually asks is, “Is my husband addicted to…” Here’s what you really need to know. Before reading on, did you know that the real issue may be emotional abuse? To test this theory, if your husband uses p***graphy, take this free emotional abuse quiz. See if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse. When My Husband SaYS HE’S Addicted… Many times, husbands who lie about affairs or watching inappropriate media claim that they have an addiction and they need your help to heal. The truth is that what’s happening in your marriage may not have anything to do an addiction at all. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women see how addiction labels can hide or excuse away emotional and psychological abuse. Here’s how to tell if your husband’s behavior is less about addiction and more about control and manipulation. THE TRUTH About “Addiction” in Marriage Addiction and lying are separate issues. If he’s… Hiding money Denying conversations or gaslighting you when you ask questions Using phrases like “You’re too sensitive” or “You blow things out of proportion” to dismiss your concerns If your husband says he lies because he’s an addict, ask yourself this question—is he taking responsibility for the pain he’s causing? Or does he make excuses, to shift blame and manipulate you into feeling like he’s the victim? These actions aren’t the slips of an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control.If your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to only focus on how they affect you. This shift will change everything. Addiction & Emotional Abuse One common lie many women hear is that an addiction to inappropriate material use is just a private or personal matter. But here’s the reality: Exploitation: The creation of these materials often involves exploitation and abuse of women and underage girls. Watching it creates demand for more harm. Coercion In Marriage: If your husband refuses to be honest about his use of these materials or acting out, he’s denying you the opportunity to make informed decisions about your own safety, which is coercion. It Breaks Marital Trust: Withholding the truth, managing secret habits, or blaming you for his choices destroys intimacy and trust. How to Protect Yourself From an “Addicted” Husband If your husband’s actions have harmed you, the best step is to learn how to protect yourself from further harm. Here’s where to start: Learn about what it means when your husband says he’s an addict by listening to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Get the RIGHT support. Check out the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session schedule to connect with other women who know exactly what you’re going through. Learn safety strategies. Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine the truth about your husband’s character and learn strategies to protect yourself. Why Your Husband’s Addiction is Likely Abusive To You Abusive online content is accepted, encouraged, and normalized in our society. While its effects are denied, minimized, and even justified. When men choose to use exploitative content, they exploit and abuse women – many of whom are underage. Violence against women is common in this type of material. Men literally have a response to the video proof of women and children brutalized and raped. How could that not be abusive? But What If It’s So-Called “Ethical”? Many so-called addicts will rally against the truth that this content is abusive. They claim that “ethical p****graphy” empowers women. However, this fallacy is both dangerous and offensive. “Ethical” is the ultimate oxymoron. There is no healthy way to view something created through coercive, exploitative tactics. Viewing This Type of Content Leads to Spouse Abuse When men consume this type of material, they are, by default, abusing their wife because: They’re engaging in a secret life—manipulation, lies, and withholding the truth are forms of emotional abuse. If he’s not honest about his use of this content, it’s coercion, because she can’t make an informed decision. Users of this material often pressure their wife to engage in dangerous, dehumanizing, and painful acts. This is coercion, a form of abuse. Users often resort to psychologically abusive behaviors, including gaslighting, blame-shifting, and abusive defensiveness. When His Addiction Has Taught Him How To Abuse Women As men consume this type of abuse, they’re being conditioned to coerce and abuse women and underage girls. We understand the depth of horror and pain women experience when betrayed. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group offers victims a safe place to process trauma, share hard feelings, and ask questions. Attend a session today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUSQmWdjAdU Transcript: Is My Husband Addicted to…? Anne: It’s just me today. If you just found out about your husband’s lies. And you’re wondering is my husband addicted to whatever he just lied about? Here’s what you need to know. If you caught your husband lying. And then your husband said, I’m addicted to … And he claims he’s struggling with addiction. The truth might not be about addiction. Often the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse. So here’s what you need to know about addiction in marriage. Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies. But if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to focus only on how they affect you, and this shift will change everything. Because if your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, this is about more than just his “personal struggle.” Lies aren’t addiction. Lies are emotional and psychological abuse. So, if your husband is lying and his excuse is that he’s an addict, ask yourself this question. Is he taking responsibility for the pain he causes? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you to feel sorry for him? Because addiction doesn’t justify lying about his whereabouts. Or that he plays the victim, so you feel sorry for him. He’s actually harming you. It doesn’t justify hiding money, denying conversations, or gaslighting when you ask questions. It doesn’t justify psychological abuse in telling you that you’re too sensitive or blowing something out of proportion, when what he’s done is serious. Is my husband addicted: Tactics of Control Anne: These actions aren’t slips from an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control. You may ask, is my husband addicted? So let’s talk specifically about addiction and why exploitative material is an abuse issue. It’s not so much that I think talking about it as an abuse issue is fun, because everything about abuse is miserable. But educating women about this type of abuse is my absolute favorite thing to do. I have a master’s degree in education. I’m an abuse educator. And because I talk about abuse all day long, I’ve developed a dark sense of humor. So I appreciate your patience. When it comes to abuse, it’s not a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation. It’s what doesn’t kill you, really harms you, and limits your ability to function and feel joy for a long time. It’s miserable to learn why it is abusive from experience. And extremely difficult to learn how to protect yourself from this type of abuse. Most people don’t give victims of this type of abuse, the correct information. So that’s my intent today. I don’t want any woman to experience this type of abuse, not know what it is, and not know how to protect yourself. That’s why I’m doing this episode today. So exploitative materials use is a form of abuse. And there are multiple reasons why it’s abuse. I’m going to work from the outside in as we go over these reasons. Reason number one: The Reality of Exploitative Media Anne: So reason number one: it fuels trafficking, and most exploitative media is video evidence of a victim’s coercion or assault. The industry says women are happy being abused. In fact, they’ve “consented” to it. But they are coerced. The money is the coercion. There is no woman wants to be filmed being violently attacked. Because that’s what most of it is today. I’m a feminist. There are some feminists who say this somehow empowers women, and I absolutely disagree. Women have contracted diseases. The toxic “work” environment breaks them emotionally. Anyone who insists that it empowers women is not operating from a trauma-informed perspective. On the type of psychological grooming, emotional manipulation, and verbal manipulation that women encounter in the industry. Is my husband addicted? There’s a general naivety among the mass consumers of exploitative media about how things work. Talking with the amazing people at the national center on exploitation. I’ve learned over the years. Statistics show if you watched 30 minutes of it. You are guaranteed to see someone who is there against their will. So even if somebody thinks they’re watching “ethical or free trade material.” There are a ton of euphemisms out there. That’s not true. Women entrapped in this type of slavery are considered products. Producers use and sell their bodies as products. So if somebody views it, they’re getting pleasure from someone else’s abuse. There’s no healthy way to do that. Reason Number two: Personal Experience with exploitative Material Anne: Is my husband addicted? The second reason why it is an abuse issue is that my husband’s use is abusive to me. Use is directly tied to loss of intimacy, reduced empathy, and addictive behaviors. The effect of it on his brain, emotions, and empathy is a net negative. My husband’s use didn’t, and no man’s use makes him more compassionate, more kind, or more capable of connecting with other people. Especially, not me as his wife. The use of exploitative material is an act outside of marriage. Most men don’t just use. They also lie, deceive, manipulate and gaslight their wives to hide their use. So their wife doesn’t know how much they’re using. It takes time to use it. It takes 15 minutes, a half hour, an hour, two hours. However long it takes them to masturbate. That is how long it takes. So this is time they are taking away from their job, childcare, housework, and reducing their wife’s mental load. I mean, they’re spending time thinking about how can I get privacy to use? They’re not thinking, how can I help my wife? What are the kids doing today? How can I help with carpool? In fact, he thinks it’s my wife’s job to do all the childcare, housework and everything. So if she asks me questions about what I’m doing, or expects anything from me, like how dare she! It’s my right to have time to view these videos of women abused and masturbate. There’s some good research you can find at The National Center on Exploitation about how use escalates over time. Is my husband addicted: Reason number three: It Destroys Relationships Anne: So it takes more intense material for a man to get an erection, and for him to actually masturbate. So over time, he’s having to watch more of it, or watch more hardcore to do it. So what I believe should be between two people as an act of love and connection. For a user is spouting out sperm in front of a computer. There’s no need to pay attention to the other person’s feelings. It’s all take. There’s absolutely no give. Is my husband addicted? And that’s the third reason why it is an abuse issue. It destroys sharing in marriage, and turns it into something that you experience alone. So it destroys the relationship. It’s not just abuse, because the people in the it are abused. And he’s not just abusive to us when he’s using it, because he has no empathy and care for us. He uses all his mental energy to figure out how to lie to us. So he can be all by himself, using it. It’s also abusing the relationship, because it destroys the relationship. So that’s the third reason why it’s an abuse issue. He misuses or abuses the relationship. A marriage relationship is intended as a caring, loving, equally respectful relationship. Where people are relating out of care. But a user doesn’t operate from that perspective. Transactional Relationships Anne: Is my husband addicted? He operates as if it’s a transactionship. So, for example, he just needs to say the right words to get the result he wants. So if he says, oh, you look so beautiful today. I love you so much. You’re amazing. That makes it much easier for him to follow up with. I’m so grateful that you’re so supportive of my job. I’m so sorry. I have to work late tonight. I’m going to be in the office. I’m going to lock the doors. So the kids don’t bother me, but just know that I care about you and I’m doing all this for our family. And then goes in his office, locks the door and he’s not actually working. He’s just using in there. He’s abusing the relationship. Because he sees it as a series of transactions and uses deceit to make those transactions. I think that using exploitative material is a form of adultery. This is how infidelity destroys the relationship. The solution to this abuse of the relationship isn’t to say, If we watch it together, then it’s not abusing the relationship because we’re doing it together. No, doing something unhealthy together is not going to make the relationship healthy. Character vs. Addiction Anne: Is my husband addicted? The CSAT therapist would like to call this addiction rather than abuse. And I disagree, it’s abuse. It should be called abuse. I think if they try to treat it, they should be treating abuse. And the only thing that any addiction recovery professional should say to a victim of this type of abuse is you’re a victim of abuse. Focus on protecting yourself. That’s it. Whether it’s addictive or not. This is a choice your husband is making day in and day out about what he thinks about, about how he spends his time. And if he’s been doing this for years, This is who he has become. The lying, the deception, the manipulation, all of this has become his character. And that’s what people mean when they say he’s abusive. Abuse is a character problem. It’s important to know that abuse is a character problem, because a lot of emotional and psychological abuse will feel good to the victim. That type of manipulation is going to cause us as victims to feel loved. and cared for. Even though it’s manipulation. This is sometimes called grooming or hoovering. So if our husband has this type of abusive character, The only reason he chooses to do things that feel good for us is to achieve a goal. And his goal is often to either hide the truth or exploit us somehow. So it’s dangerous, no matter what, it’s dangerous, if he’s manipulating through manipulative kindness, it’s just more obvious if he’s manipulating through threats, verbal abuse, or overt forms of emotional and psychological abuse. and verbal abuse. Is my husband addicted: The Role of Addiction Professionals Anne: The addiction, industrial complex does not want to correctly identify this. Is my husband addicted? They won’t say he has an abusive character. They’re going to say it’s an addiction and the addiction is a disease and the logical outcome of thinking that our husband has a disease. is for us as victims to have compassion for our abuser. When the thing we need to do is protect ourselves. It’s not like he’s a cancer patient. And he has no choice. He does have choices. Men who use this material are not helpless. The bigger question is can they think about women as people. Can they accept that women are human and that we are equal to them. That we were not created for their use or for them to exploit. But that our feelings matter just as much as theirs. If he wants to have it and we don’t want to have it. Those are equal. Because we are equal. And so all things being equal. He’s an adult. He has choices. If we can put time, effort, and thought into how to have a better marriage. So can he. If we can figure this out, he can figure this out. He knows how to act appropriately, because he is kind in public. He knows how to be kind. And he chooses to be kind as a manipulation tactic. He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. For so long, I was in this addiction recovery space with my ex-husband. I was not seeing him as abusive. I was viewing everything he did through that lens of addiction. Classic abusive behaviors Anne: And that’s exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to help you SEE what is actually happening. The way that I talk about abuse, is very mainstream. If you went to a domestic violence shelter and explained the manipulation, lies, deception, and disrespect that you’re experiencing. Is my husband addicted? Those domestic abuse experts at the domestic violence shelter would confirm that you’re experiencing abuse. I haven’t invented this out of nowhere. These are very typical classic abusive behaviors. It’s just that the addiction industrial complex doesn’t want you to know that. And so they don’t bring that up. And I think the main reason is that they know if it’s abuse, a woman should just focus on protecting herself. If a addiction professional is an abuse expert. They know that he’s only going to treatment as a way to continue manipulating and exploiting his wife. That he doesn’t need treatment, to be honest at any time. He could say, hey, it was a choice and I chose to use because it was way easier than trying to have a relationship. And I just want to ejaculate. All I care about is the orgasm and it’s way easier with it. It doesn’t expect anything. Instead in addiction treatment. He’ll come up with all these excuses and reasons. For why he’s compelled. And you end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for him to string you along and continue to exploit you and manipulate you. Because the addiction treatment industry doesn’t give victims of this type of abuse in any way to protect ourselves. Indications of change Anne: And they know that if she realizes this, he’ll have no reason to go anymore. And then they’ll lose a client. And then won’t get paid as much. Is my husband addicted? If he hasn’t found the treatment program all by himself, scheduled his own appointments, and done everything without you as a victim mentioning anything to him. Meaning, if you’re the one that found the therapist, if you schedule the appointments, if you’re managing his treatment in any way.That is one of the biggest indications. That he does not intend to change. Because if he did intend to change, he would have done all of that on his own. If you’re capable of doing it, he’s capable of doing it. Sex addiction professionals know this. They always want the wife to be involved in the addict’s treatment. They don’t tell you that it’s the biggest indication that he’s not going to change. Because if the wife’s not involved, they don’t get paid. So the whole thing is just a big racket. If you’ve been listening at this point, you’re probably thinking, is there no hope for my marriage? And I understand. Because I felt the same way. I don’t know of any woman who hasn’t tried to go to intensive couple therapy or get their husband addiction therapy. It’s totally okay to be like, I’m going to try addiction therapy or maybe like an abuse cessation program. That’s what I did. And most of the women who come to BTR have tried that. In fact, you maybe have already tried going to therapy or a marriage intensive. And you’re thinking you just need to find the right therapist or the right program. Is my husband addicted: Seeking Help and Therapy Anne: Is my husband addicted? Here’s a thought. If you’re thinking that you just haven’t found the right program yet for your husband. The Living Free Workshop is a lot less expensive than years and years of couple therapy or addiction treatment. The Living Free Workshop is extremely affordable. So just go with me here for just a second. What if you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop first, before you try the next therapist or the next program or even the next, like, abuse ceasation coach. The total runtime for the living free workshop is only two hours and 20 minutes. And the workbook is incredible, but you don’t even have to do the workbook. You can just watch the videos. The longest video is six minutes and the shortest one is only 28 seconds. The average video is about three minutes long. I’ve made them all really short. So that you could process the information. The idea is just watch the whole thing. Again, the runtime is only two hours and 20 minutes. Then as you find the next therapist or program for your husband. At least you’ll be educated about this type of abuse and how to protect yourself. And if your husband has an abusive character. And if a couple therapy isn’t going to work, you’ll be able to recognize that very quickly. So that knowledge will save you tons of money and tons of time. And if he doesn’t have an abusive character, and therapy will help. You’ll see that clearly too. Does He have an abusive character? Anne: Is my husband addicted? The Living Free Workshop just gives you the skills to be able to see what is happening. Because I don’t want any woman in the world to be abused, ever. And if it is abuse, it’s imperative that you have the information you need to protect yourself. So those are the three reasons why exploitative material is abusive. Number one, because it fuels trafficking. Number two, because it’s abusive to spouses and number three, because it’s abusive to the relationship. I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to over the years, thousands. Who told me that once they got this information. Once they understood from The Living Free Workshop how to determine if he really had an abusive character. Once they knew the emotional safety strategies, how everything changed in their life for the better. They were finally able to get some traction and protect themselves. And that’s my hope for you too. To learn more, click this link.

Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Step 1: Recognizing What Caused The Emotional Wounds Understanding emotional abuse is the first step to getting help and staying safe. Before you go to any helping professional, it’s important to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women identify exactly what is causing the emotional wounds. Once you know what the true cause is, you’ll be ready to find the right support to heal. Step 2: Getting Safe Help For Healing Emotional Wounds in Relationships If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds: Has the professional or therapist given equal weight to his abusive narrative, his lies and the truth? Does the support person think that you played a role in causing the abuse? If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds. Transcript: Healing Emotional Wounds After Trauma Anne: Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help. Healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional. As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start? Esther: Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture. Seeking Help & Initial Steps Esther: And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county. I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my husband to please go to abuser counseling. Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this. I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, going to therapy, and going to an abuser program. He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me. Anne: Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that? Esther: His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object. Understanding The Depth Of Abuse Esther: I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really? There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here? I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing. Anne: Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse? Esther: Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help. Healing Emotional Wounds While Experiencing Post-Separation Chaos Esther: I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help. He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge. And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful. Anne: I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on? Seeking Validation & Understanding Anne: They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm. Esther: That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book. Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children. He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert. Attending The Retreat To Heal From Relationship Wounds Esther: I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me. So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much. I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar. Healing Emotional Wounds And Regaining My Personality Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys. And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this. Anne: The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that. Esther: You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home. He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey. Uncomfortable Moments At The Retreat Esther: Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions? And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy. There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool. First Date & Red Flags Esther: Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel. After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting. I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with? Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop. Healing Emotional Wounds In Relationships: When The Help Makes It Worse Esther: He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left. He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation. It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships? Anne: All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that? Esther: I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief. When Professionals Prey On Women Esther: I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back. Anne: Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship. Esther: Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor. You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating. I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no. Futility Of Confronting The Abuser Anne: Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community. We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage. I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way. Healing Emotional Wounds By Using our Workshop Strategies Anne: So The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR. My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth. Esther: That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. My husband was gaslighting. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people. Anne: Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them. Abusers Like To Fight Esther: That’s true. They like to fight. Anne: And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor. Esther: Absolutely. Anne: Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today.

It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know. If you relate to this, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith. Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct: abuse adult sexual abuse harassment rape sexual assault sexualized verbal comments or visuals unwanted touches and advances use of sexualized materials including pornography stalking sexual abuse of youth or those without mental capacity to consent misuse of the pastoral/ministerial position Failing to protect a victim of abuse Can include criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities. Understanding How Clergy Misconduct Happens As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is not an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is never the victim’s fault. When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy. This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy. Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse. Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today and find the community you deserve. Transcript: The Truth About Clergy Misconduct Anne: Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave. Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page. Anne: Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it? Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it. Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy. That’s the segment that we’re going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It’s a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they’re paid or unpaid. The Scope Of Clergy Misconduct Pastor Dave: Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities. So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there. Anne: So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny? Pastor Dave: Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior. Anne: Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing. Pastor Dave: Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don’t believe it’s an affair. Here’s why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there’s an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That’s why it’s asymmetrical. So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent. Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power. Therapists & Clergy: Positions Of Power Pastor Dave: So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct. Anne: Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals. Pastor Dave: Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions. They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders. It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry. Predators In Religious Authority Anne: Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it’s just volunteer, when they’re not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he’s a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling. So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation? Pastor Dave: You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal. Anne: I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct? Pastor Dave: A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind! Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal. Anne: I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now. Gender Balance On Church Committees Anne: I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right. Pastor Dave: Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions. Anne: I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith. Pastor Dave: When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume. https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct. Anne: Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character. Pastor Dave: This is the heart of our conversation right now. Safe Practices For Congregants Pastor Dave: This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies. Anne: So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about. Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise. Anne: One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse. Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that. Pastor Dave: That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself. Anne: We’re on the same page, yay! The Role Of Clergy In Counseling Pastor Dave: We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you. Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness. Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior? They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation? Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord. Pastors & Congregants, Power Dynamics Pastor Dave: If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy. Anne: That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession. Pastor Dave: Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion. Anne: Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it. Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun. Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe. Other Things To Prevent Clergy Misconduct Pastor Dave: A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship. And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people. Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator. Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel. General Clergy Misconduct Pastor Dave: That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general. Anne: Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit. So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help. Pastor Dave: I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either. If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area. Anne: Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue. Understanding Emotional & Psychological Abuse Anne: This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Pastor Dave: And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area. Anne: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct. If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct. So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves. Advice For Victims Of Clergy Misconduct Pastor Dave: And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it? I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you. Anne: And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions? Support For Wives Anne: In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario? Pastor Dave: If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office. Anne: Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting. Pastor Dave: It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you. Anne: Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time. Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne.

You might think you already know the answer to this question: “What does God say about divorce?” But here’s the thing, the Bible has told righteous people throughout all of time to separate themselves from wickedness. The word we use today for “wickedness” is abuse. So the first step to knowing what God may want you to do about your marriage is to discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Click here to take my free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What Did God Say About Divorce? Anne: I have a member of our community. On today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Kayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. Kayla is a woman of faith. Part of her story is sharing when she realized she didn’t need to listen to what her pastor said. Or people at her church, so that she could develop her own relationship with God. And find out for herself what God says about divorce and marriage. If you’re not a woman of faith, if you’re agnostic or atheist, her story will still relate to you. I don’t know why modern Christianity has taken this stance that the “other people” are dangerous. But refuse to see that maybe someone living in your own home is dangerous. The scriptures are clear about God’s stance on divorce and marriage. 4 Scriptures That teach what God Really Says About Divorce Here are four that might help: Proverbs 22:3 “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” So that means that we should separate ourselves from dangerous people. II Corinthians 6: 17 “Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing that I will receive you.” They’re talking about somebody who lies to you, somebody who is exploiting women. Matthew 10:16 “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” That’s talking about strategy, and you can learn more about what strategies we recommend. By enrolling in the Living Free Workshop. Get more information about that by clicking on this link. John 16: 13 “The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.” Obviously, God wants us to be safe and loves us, and that clergy or anyone else interprets scriptures to oppress us and tell us what God says about divorce and marriage,That’s spiritual abuse. And Kayla’s gonna share her story. The Holy Spirit warns and guides us. He helps us recognize danger and make decisions to protect ourselves. Kayla’s Early Relationship Anne: So welcome, Kayla. Kayla: I’m glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning when you first met, did you recognize his abusive behaviors? Kayla: Well, no, from the start he carried himself as a complete gentleman. We worked together at a Fortune 500 company. When we met, he kept boundaries. That made me believe he had values. He appeared to have everything I wanted, handsome, courteous, church going and a family man. We had a lot of the same interests, new restaurants, bowling and cruising. His family loved me. My family loved him. He put me on a pedestal. And of course. I loved it. So I painted this picture of him, like this church going person with character. I couldn’t see him for who he was. You know, his behavior was subtle, like of financial, understanding or miscommunication. And I just kind of attributed to his upbringing. We had kids pretty quickly. So three to four years into our marriage, I wasn’t feeling the connection anymore and I was trying to improve our relationship. I thought that God was clear on divorce and marriage. I tried having deep conversations with him, but he often fell asleep or said we can talk later. But later never came. And he had this tendency to not follow through, and he was having this trouble not only at home, but also at work. Work & Home Challenges Kayla: He was an IT person, and when he wasn’t going to his customer’s desk to help them, he would fall asleep. When he did his work, he made mistakes when he had to write-up. The write up of what he did, he forgot to do it. Many times it went missing. He didn’t follow through. So he was getting to the point where they were putting him on probation. Because he was sleeping on the job because he wasn’t doing his job. And the same things I was seeing at home, not following through, falling asleep in the middle of a conversation. So it’s what led me to say maybe you need to get in a professional evaluation. Anne: Okay, so you’re thinking, let’s see if something’s wrong. Just hearing this part, I wonder if he wasn’t paying attention, because he was doing stuff late at night. Where he wasn’t getting a lot of sleep and distracted with the double life he had going on. That’s my prediction, so we’ll talk about it a little later. Okay, so he gets diagnosed? Kayla: He was diagnosed with ADD. He got on a DD medicine, and that seemed to help him at work. I didn’t get the benefits. Even though he claimed to be taking a second pill when he got home. I didn’t see the benefits of the follow through, the discipline, the focus at all. I thought his forgetfulness, his lack of follow through, his emotional distance were all symptoms he couldn’t fully control and I just felt I needed to be patient and supportive. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Efforts to Improve Kayla: Like I set times, let’s talk every night at nine o’clock. Let’s talk about our feelings, let’s talk about our relationship, our finances. But most of those conversations, I was left feeling empty and unimportant. And yes, we sought counseling. We went to yearly marriage conferences with our church. We went to a pastor for advice and support. I was trying to hard to honor what God wanted in my marriage and to save us from divorce. So I suggested and we attend couples therapy to help our relationship. I met with the therapist. He met with the therapist, and we met once a month. We paid over $7,000 for 13 weeks Christian transformation sessions. And besides, we were the president of the marriage ministry, helping others with their marriage. I did a lot of personal reflection and improvement. I took the time when he came home, that first 30 minutes, to let him be to himself. Here’s What God Says About Divorce And I remember coming home from the marriage conference, learning that our bodies were not ours. And we should meet our spouse’s needs. Whenever they asked, I tried it. And without the emotional connection, I felt hollowed, used. I just couldn’t do that. Anne: Right. Kayla: I read books, books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, How to Have a Healthy Marriage. Our marriage vows before God made it harder, I think, for me to see the truth. Because I was deeply rooted in the idea that my marriage covenant was sacred and unbreakable. So it kept me focused on holding the relationship together at all costs. So I stayed with prayer, effort, and patience, while my ex-husband didn’t seek to improve. And I just kept praying and putting the effort in. Thinking I knew what God thought about divorce and marriage, and that I had to make it work. Realization Of Deeper Issues Kayla: I don’t know anyone who has put more effort into trying to hold their marriage together. I just did a lot to try to hold our marriage together. Anne: When did you start realizing that all of this concerted effort was not working . Kayla: Wow, so we attended this 13 weeks of extensive Christian transformation marriage sessions. It required that we work on a different aspect of our marriage every night. So we met in the weekly sessions. We had sessions directly with the Christian coaches, and we did something at night. Anne: Was there abuse education as part of this intensive? Kayla: No, it was all about seeking God, praying for your spouse, building your spouse up, looking at things differently. It was all saying that God hated divorce, and I had to save my marrriage. Anne: So there was no abuse education whatsoever. Kayla: Not at all. So we were talking every night. He started to come to bed, which you were alluding to. Many nights he did not come to bed. He stayed up all night long. And so things started feeling better. So much so that I believed we had reached a good place. But then things started happening again. I started feeling disconnected, and I went to him for some tweaks. Instead of trying to understand what I was feeling, what I was thinking. He started deflecting and minimizing, and started talking about how he didn’t feel loved. And I put my feelings aside, and I asked him. Send me an email to explain why you don’t feel love and what it would look like for you to feel love. Confronting The Truth Kayla: He emailed me a letter. In this letter, he wrote things like, I would like you to serve me a plate of food and bring it to me. After intimacy, I want you to get me a cold drink. I want you to dress provocatively for our nights out. I was just floored, he wanted me to do his chores. That was his responsibility in the house, like taking out the trash, pulling the cans to the street. And that letter, I realized I didn’t know this man I was married to. And I realized it had to do with his wants and removing his responsibilities in the house, more than me showing love to him. Anne: Right. Kayla: And that’s when I realized something is desperately wrong. And then I went back to our therapist, and I said, I want to ask him about watching exploitative material. Because early on in our marriage, it had come up. I caught I caught him looking at it, and he said, oh, if you don’t want me to look at it, I won’t look at it anymore. I believed him, but didn’t believe him. So what I mean by that is, every now and then I would check his computer. I would check his phone, nothing. Nothing was there at all. But in that therapy session, when I asked the question, he looked down, his face looked flooded with shame, almost in tears. And he admitted he was addicted and had been since he was a teenager. He rationalized it in his mind that it was okay, because he wasn’t touching a woman in the flesh. It was at that moment that I realized that all the work I had been doing didn’t matter. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? He Admits He’s An Addict Kayla: All the work that my therapist had done to build our relationship only worked in a healthy relationship. And I realized we didn’t have one. For 24 years he had been watching exploitative material. And later to find out so much more than that, but he said he had been watching it all day long. Anne: And all night long. Kayla: All night long. Anne: Was my prediction accurate? That’s why he was so tired and distracted? Kayla: Your prediction is 100% correct. He was up late at night. And one of my complaints was, why don’t you come to bed? And he would say, I’m not sleepy, and when I do come to bed too early, I can’t fall asleep. I just lay in bed. Anne: Says the man who’s falling asleep all the time. Kayla: Yes. Anne: Mm-hmm, yeah, so when he tells you he’s been using, it’s not the whole truth at this point. Is he identified as an addict? Kayla: He identified himself as a addict. But really, it was that moment, that moment when I realized the extent of his betrayal, just to paint the picture for you. I never thought he could deceive me, especially not in that way. So everything about us changed, and I realized I needed to rely on God. So my prayer just became God, uproot what’s in me, what’s in my husband, what’s in my marriage that’s not of you, I still was not considering divorce. God, give my husband what he needs to be disciplined, focused, and changed. And if he’s not going to put the work in, do not let me move forward until you’ve made it clear that he’s changed and repentance of the heart. Never Thinking It Could Be More Kayla: I was so up in the head from the fact that he had deceived me. I had to rely on God. But even then, I would’ve never thought it could be more. Because we did almost everything together. He didn’t hang out. We went to work. He came home, he went to church, he came home. But he was manipulating things, so his phone, he was going in incognito mode. On the computer, he was going into private browsing. When he went to the store, he went to a sex massage parlor. Or when we were on vacation finding a street prostitute. I just had no idea that any of this was going on. SAI asked him to go into a recovery program. He started SA, but he was only going once a week to say he was going. He wasn’t doing any of the work. I then joined Infidelity Survivors Anonymous. I spoke privately to someone in the group, and she recommended I receive a full disclosure and a polygraph test. Because he might be doing more than pornography. And that’s what prompted me to eventually ask him if he had cheated with anyone during our marriage, under the certainty that he would have to take a polygraph test. That’s when things started becoming a little bit clearer. Because my ex was so covert, I kept saying, my ex just has a DD. My ex would never do that to me. You know, he loves me. He’s trying, I was still making excuses for him in my head. I was thinking about forgiveness and mercy, and that’s what God wanted in my marriage, not divorce. Anne: I wouldn’t say you’re making excuses per se. I think you’re still resisting the abuse. Emotional & Financial Abuse Anne: Safety is always a top priority for women. You’ve been trying to get to safety this whole time. You’re trying to get to emotional safety, you’re trying to get to psychological safety. You’re doing this through getting his ADD diagnosis through counseling. These are forms of resistance to abuse. You are really safety focused this entire time. So it’s not that you’re in denial, it’s that you’re trying to get to safety with the information you have at the moment. So you can let yourself off the hook you only knew what you knew at that time. God wants us to be safe in our marriage, even if that means divorce. Kayla: Right, at that moment I thought he only had an addiction. And I would’ve put my hands on the Bible that he never touched another woman. So when we had a therapy session. I asked him the question knowing that he was gonna have to take a polygraph test, and he said, yes, my brain left my body. Like I felt the abuse instantly. It was like, what just happened? How could he have been pretending to be this man of God, this deacon at church? This church school teacher, all this time, telling me how much he loved me and was trying to do better. It made everything that I was thinking. That he was gaslighting me or deflecting and minimizing, and he was telling me that. Oh no, that’s not what’s happening. Oh, you are misinterpreting that. It made everything true for me. He had not only been emotionally abusing me, but also financially abusing me. Because he was going to these massage parlors and with street prostitutes. I remember going to my therapist and saying to her, he’s deflecting, he has cognitive distortion. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Therapist’s Perspective Kayla: He’s selfish. At this point, she agrees with everything. And I said, when I look this up, it says this is all abuse. She’s like, it is. And I was shocked, like, why didn’t you tell me this? She said, well, I was treating him for these things in the hopes that I can help him get to the place where he can set goals. And work the goals, and be the person you were trying to get him to be. Anne: Wow, wow. Kayla: Yeah. Anne: That is so insane, to be like I knew he was abusive. I had a therapist say the same thing to me. And I was like, it would be better if you said I didn’t know. Than to say I knew and didn’t tell you, because I thought I could change an abuser who is also lying to me. It’s like wild, that was really, really crazy. Kayla: It was crazy, because I was doing anything and everything. And it had got to the point where I said to her, when I walk into my house, I feel bad energy. I’m not happy at home. Like I feel like running, I feel trapped. Now I’m finding out like there’s a clear reason why I felt that way, because of what was really going on. And like you said, I was seeking safety. And I didn’t even realize I was seeking safety. I didn’t realize how much confusion I was under. I didn’t realize the person who said they would love me and take care of me for life was the one hurting me the most. God says “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” This was advice for marriage and divorce. Seeking Clarity & Space Anne: And deceiving you on purpose, and that is so, so painful. When we can finally wrap our heads around it. But it’s so difficult to perceive of that. It’s like mind bending. God says, “He will lead you to all truth.” about divorce and marriage. Kayla: Yeah, so I had to decide what to do now. And it took me a minute, my brain was still confused. I was still going back. No, he would never do that. Oh no, he’s a nice guy. Oh, no, he cried at our wedding. So, I just needed him to leave my space, to get clarity. What is really going on? I asked him to leave the home. To give me that space, to do the research. To listen to podcasts, to do my reading to understand who he was and what he had been doing all along. So I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. And you talked about betrayal trauma, and basically that’s what I was going through, right? And that’s when I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts. It was like an aha moment. Like listening to women tell their stories, and like, oh my goodness, that’s me. Oh my goodness, yeah. I felt that way. It just confirmed everything that I was thinking, feeling, and understanding. Why other people couldn’t see it, right? Because he was Mr. Nice guy. Everyone loved him. He walked on water. And even though I’m telling people what he’s doing, what he did, they couldn’t see that. They couldn’t hear me and how I felt alone. Even with my friends, but listening to BTR, it was like, okay, I’m not alone. I’m not crazy. Realizing The Extent Of Abuse Kayla: There’s a reason why people don’t understand it. It’s all part of the facade. It’s all part of the abuse, the intentional intentional abuse. To keep the two separate, to make sure they think I’m the perfect person, because I will need them to support me at some point. So the help I got by listening to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And knowing that I wasn’t alone, and everything I was feeling was real. But even with all that, I still said I would stay in this relationship, if I can see that he repented. And I just continued to pray to God, and eventually I got the clarity that he was not going to change. God was telling me what to do about divorce and marriage. This is who he is. That person I was trying to return to who I thought I was marrying, didn’t exist. He’s this person here, I need to admit that this is who he is. And all these years, I’ve just been under emotional, financial, and intiamate abuse, and that was hard to swallow. But once I got there. Once I got that peace from God, that this is what’s going on. That’s when I finally am able to say I want a divorce. I think the biggest thing is why it took me 24 years to realize I was being abused, right? As much as I knew something was wrong, as much as I was stressed out. I felt like I was carrying the weight of the family financially. As much as I knew I was carrying that weight, I just thought it was what a wife should do. Stand by her man. What God Says About Divorce And Marriage When Experiencing Covert Abuse? Kayla: I didn’t know about covert, passive aggressive behaviors, and that’s what he was doing. I didn’t realize I had these thousand little cuts, and he was giving me these little bandaids to prevent the bleed out. Because everything he did, he did it under the pretense of, it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m so sorry. I love you. It hurts me when you don’t smile. We had a cycle of highs and lows that ironically strengthened the emotional ties I had to him. And I clung to moments of kindness or affection, believing that was an indication of change in his behavior. I think also because of the good guy persona, right? I also wondered what was wrong with me. It appeared I had this good man, who went to work, went to church, and loved me. He just struggled with connection and consistency. But that’s because of the ADD. He wasn’t intending to hurt me. As this loving, supportive wife, it’s my job to support, help him, even if I’m drowning. perception, leadingAlso just doubting myself, like everyone on the outside saw him as this perfect man. He had a reputation, and everyone loved him. That he was kind, charming, funny, and I didn’t see that complete person in my home. I allowed the confusion to trump how I felt by how others viewed him. And it caused me to question my own perception, leading to just more confusion and self-doubt. But I think one of the bigger things was my faith. We were the presidents of the marriage ministry, and we were consistent churchgoers. I wanted to be a good example to God of not getting divorced and staying in my marriage. Faith & Personal Growth Kayla: And we were conditioned to prioritize forgiveness, patience, and harmony over our own wellbeing, which made it difficult to recognize that abuse. It’s not two people trying to make a relationship work, but when you go to people and they say to you, just pray harder. What’s your part in this? And you constantly keep saying, well, I need to do this because I made a commitment before God. Understanding what God says about divorce and marriage is confusing. All those things makes it hard to see the abuse for what it is. Because no one brings up the word abuse because it’s not physical. And also it’s a lot of little things over time that I didn’t realize. You know, this may sound really crazy. I am closer to God. Than I’ve ever been right now because I realized the difference. I was committed to the church, to the religion, but I needed to build my own relationship with God, hear God for myself. And not hear other people’s interpretation of what he was saying to me. You know, I was listening to the preachers, when they say, divorce is not an option. The Bible doesn’t say divorce is not an option. I needed to get in God’s face and to understand what he was saying to me. And not what other people thought it should be. My mom passed away from Covid in April of 2020, and I was crushed. I fell on my face and I couldn’t get back up for it felt like years. Like losing her left a void. When I fell on my face in my marriage, it was different. I got back up so much faster, but the damage felt so much worse. God’s Protection & Strength Kayla: Why? because I realized through the grief that God is my comforter, that he’s my strength, and that he’s my everything and that I need to rely on him. Not anyone else. And even though I lost friends, I lost my church. I had God to help me through this process, the healing process. So I look at it differently, meaning that I have my own personal relationship with God not depending on other people interpretations. Anne: A lot of women describe that time of being faithful, but feeling like God cared about the marriage. Or God cared about your husband, but he didn’t care about me, kind of a feeling. And then, realizing that God loves you and he really cares. He wants you to be safe. It’s such a different place to have that relationship just with God caring about how you feel. Than thinking that God doesn’t care about you unless you check off all these boxes. Kayla: 100%, I did go through that feeling , I felt it when I lost my mom. Like, how could you do this God? With this situation, I felt it again, God, what did I do to deserve this? Right? And I had to realize He didn’t want me to feel like that, but on the other side of it, I said, you know what, God gave me two beautiful children from this. God loved me. God protected me while my ex was out there sleeping with prostitutes. He protected me. God gave me the strength to be able to walk away from that marriage and even more. So he allowed me to align with him. God was telling me it was okay divorce and leave my marriage. God says to Trust Intuition In Divorce And Marriage Kayla: And as much as my ex did to me and the pain he caused me, he is in a worse situation than I’m in. I have found peace in God. I know that I’m loved by God. And I know that I’m a better person, even though I went through that. I’m a stronger person now. I’m more determined now. I understand where my strength comes from. I understand where my peace comes from. The intuition that was happening throughout our marriage that I was getting constantly. Anne: Mm-hmm. Kayla: Not having all the pieces together. I understand it now. I understand that was God talking to me the whole time and I didn’t put all the pieces together. But now moving forward, I learned to trust my intuition more. Because I know that God’s talking to me and telling me my safety is important in divorce and marriage. And I know that God loves me and I know that God is going to give me all that I lost in those years with my ex. Through the pain with my ex and the finances with my ex, that he’s going give all that back to me.I know that everyone that listens to your podcast may not worship God, but I want everyone to trust your intuition. Trust what you’re seeing moreso than what you are hearing. I listened to the words and I didn’t really watch the actions. Watch how do you feel, because no matter what their intention is how do you feel, what’s the impact to you? Because you’re important, and if you’re getting the impact, the intention doesn’t even matter. Research & Confirmation Kayla: Do the research. It was the research that made things a lot clearer for me when I was in this place of going back and forth. Not my acts, not mine, not mine, and made it clear. And the confirmations would just come. I would read something in the book and then I would see him do it. I was always taught what happens in your home, in your marriage. You don’t talk about, but if you are seeking help and you find someone to help you make sense of things. I would advise you to have that conversation. Because when I finally did she had so many answers for me. She had been through something similar. She understood the abuse, and it was the only place that I really got the clarity of what this abuse looked like, so trust your intuition. Anne: I love that through this process, women discover how smart, wise, and how capable they are. And realize that they were resisting the whole time and they were doing what they were supposed to do. You went for help to multiple, multiple places. That’s what someone smart does. And you got the wrong information. And once you got the right information, you were able to make good decisions for yourself fairly quickly, and you would’ve made those decisions earlier if you had the information at that time. But the good news is you did the right thing the entire time. You are so brave and capable and have an amazing life ahead of you, Kayla: Sometimes people stay together for their children. Reflections On Children & Conversations Kayla: He was hurting me, it was hurting my children in my home. My daughter was affected, to the point where she has a hard time vocalizing how she feels. She felt something was wrong all along, but didn’t know what it was. She learned to stuff her feelings because of that. Sometimes when we think we are doing a justice by not having certain conversations with our children, we’re doing them an injustice. and I believe that. Me finding out about my ex not only saved me, it saved my daughter and helped her to know that she needed to, learn to use her voice. It saved my son who did not understand the dangers of it. It’s a conversation that I can freely have with other people in my family, which is usually a taboo conversation. The conversation is always, this is what boys do. So it’s very important to have these conversations, I believe, especially when someone in your family has this addiction. To have this conversation with others, children and so on. Anne: Yeah. That’s so important. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to share so that other women could benefit from your experience with what God says about divorce and marriage. Kayla: Thank you. I appreciate you for having me.

Has your husband (or his therapist) weaponized codependency language to harm you? Here’s why codependents anonymous might not be right for you. Is Codependents Anonymous the Answer for Betrayed Wives? When a husband lies and cheats, many women are told: “You’re codependent. You should go to Codependents Anonymous.”But here’s the truth: men often pick up “codependency” language from sexual addiction therapists or marriage counselors, but it’s actually a form of victim blaming. When a professional slaps the “codependent” label on a wife who’s been betrayed, it shifts responsibility for his lying or cheating onto her. Suddenly, she’s told her “neediness” or “lack of boundaries” is part of the problem. How Your Husband May Use Codependents Anonymous Against You Men who abuse and betray find blaming their wife’s codependency useful because if you’re “codependent,” then you share the blame. And you end up working on yourself while he keeps lying. Women already blame themselves enough. Adding a “codependency” label just deepens the confusion, leaving victims focused on self-improvement instead of safety. That’s how the cycle of emotional abuse keeps going. A Better Path ForwardIf you’ve been lied to or betrayed, you don’t need to be labeled. You need support, safety, and clarity. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily and offer women the safe space. Transcript: My Husband Weaponized Codependency To Hide The Truth Anne: I’m welcoming Melinda on today’s episode, who is like all of us are. She is the wife of a sex addict. The reason why I wanted her to come on today is that she commented on one of the articles on btr. org. Every single podcast that we do is transcribed and turned into an article and put on Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s website, btr.org. We love people’s comments here. So if you haven’t joined the conversation, I welcome you to do that. Just comment below. And that’s how I met Melinda. So welcome, Melinda. Melinda: Hi there. Thanks for having me. Anne: So let’s start with your story, Melinda. How did your husband weaponize codependency language? Melinda: My husband revealed he had been having an affair. And later revealed he had been seeing a sex masseuse and also abusing pornography. We entered into a process of trying to figure out what was going on. I understood it was not my fault, and that it was something that I felt we could overcome together. He struggled a lot with all of it, and ultimately showed that he couldn’t meet me where I needed to be met, so that I can recover from the betrayal. But for a period of time, he entered 12 step, and he also actually, I should say, has been trained as a counselor. Therapy & Codependency Melinda: And when we entered therapy after the revelations of his betrayal, something kept coming up that was baffling to me. Our therapist reinforced it, that somehow there was something in our dynamic that I was responsible for. That’s why he did what he did and was acting out in the way he was. I was trying to wrap my head around it because I’m a person who takes a lot of responsibility for our own behavior and actions. But I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. I have also done a lot of work professionally, understanding trauma. So I was already under a trauma orientation, thinking I’m traumatized. Why am I not getting understood here? Why does it keep coming back to something in my psychological makeup that’s creating this dynamic of his acting out behavior? Anne: Essentially, it was trying to get you to take some form of accountability for the situation. Melinda: Yes, and later I kind of understood where this is coming from when I started learning more about 12 step and codependency and what that means. How therapists and some in the 12 step field think about codependency. I realized that a lot of that thinking was damaging to me. And neglected that his acting out was really, I’ve heard you use the term abuse, and I don’t know if I want to use that term, but it was definitely abusive. And a lot of his behavior, aside from the sexual acting out, was passive aggressive covert abuse, Codependency as an Excuse Anne: Emotional abuse in the form of lies and manipulation. Melinda: Yeah, and a charming and playful facade. A lot of it was gaslighty as well. What I realized is that codependency was a great excuse for him to not take responsibility. We had problems prior to this throughout our relationship. The problems in my view was that he did not take accountability for behavior and responsibilities. When the word codependency or the concept of codependency came into our relationship. It just became another tool to gaslight me and deflect. It was confusing for a while, because I want to take accountability. But he used it to not actually address the harm he caused. Anne: There’s that, and then it goes further than that. Because he’s not just using it to avoid accountability for the harm he’s caused. He’s also using it to try and pin it on you. That’s why I call that abuse, because he actively attempts to harm you. Melinda: Yes, yes Anne: I mean, he doesn’t see it that way. He just thinks he’s trying to get away with it, but that is the end result. The end result is that he’s harming you even further by lying about your part. Melinda: Yeah, I became a scapegoat for many, many things, and this just allowed even more scapegoating. You know, his decisions to cheat and all the other stuff were part of that scapegoating. I didn’t understand why this was happening. I was reading a lot of books on how to help your partner heal, and what does reconciliation look like? And I was bringing them to him, and he kept coming up with, why don’t you focus on yourself? Focus on Self vs. Relationship Melinda: And I’m thinking, I’m focusing on what I need to allow you back into my life. And anytime I said, you know, your defensiveness is hurting me. I don’t trust you, you’re not doing trustworthy things. He said, well, stop focusing on me and focus on yourself. It didn’t make sense until I started looking at what codependency tells people. It tells them to focus on themselves, not on others. Which sounds great, but in the hands of an abusive and exploitative person, it can go awry. Anne: Well, and also it’s what they want you to do. They would like you to stop confronting them about their abusive behaviors. So because that’s what they want, they want you to “work on yourself,” which to them means leave me alone. Melinda: And a lot of this is about thinking that you’re controlling. And my orientation, philosophical and spiritual frame. I have a Christian background. But I have more alignment with Buddhist mindfulness practices, as well as I’ve become more of a feminist. I think about feminist psychology much more. I look at it in that frame, and I see a lot of women being held responsible for men’s behavior in the culture. And I think that was just a natural extension of the woman is making me do this. He even intimated that the affair partner was the aggressor in this situation. And that somehow she was this temptress. Anne: What could I do? She kissed me. I couldn’t do anything about it, right? Melinda: So I’m always aware of the gender dynamic, and our therapists played along with it. Therapist’s Role in Abuse Melinda: She was a new therapist. So that was like the double trauma of facing the reality of his infidelity and all that. And then a therapist reflecting it back on me in our supposedly safe setting. Anne: It sounds like the therapist became an extension of the abuse. So let’s go back to where you’re being supportive of his recovery. Did you ever attend 12 step or COSA, which is co sex addicts? Did you ever attend either of those groups? Melinda: I did. What struck me was that I felt in COSA, I had to align with codependency. One of the few times I went for instance, there was one woman agonizing over her partner. Who was holed up in the basement with the computer looking at pornography. He wouldn’t leave the house, and I hear her describe the story. Instead of saying how angry and indignant about how wrong that was. And how inappropriate that was, she went back to, well, I’m going to focus on myself, take care of myself. Challenges in Confronting Abuse Melinda: And I thought, are you allowing abuse in your home because it’s easier? Because you don’t know how to set the boundary or even draw a line? I just felt like she just caved in to feeling like she’s beholden to the situation and must allow it to continue. Anne: I think that happens a lot. Women don’t know what to do, and confronting it seems so difficult. Also the consequences of confronting it seem so difficult. Like, I can’t do that. And so, I’ll focus on myself, which becomes a way for them to do something. I feel a lot of compassion in this stage for victims, because it’s difficult to know what to do. Living with an abuser or divorcing an abuser. Both choices are not good. The best choice is if you could have him not be abusive anymore, which you have no control over. So it’s a way that victims try to empower themselves sometimes. And I think that all of us go through a stage like that. We can hold a space of compassion for ourselves when we were in that stage and others in that stage, as they work through exactly what they need to feel safe, because it takes time. Melinda: Yeah, absolutely, I certainly had to accept where he was in his path. And that it was not in alignment with where I wanted to be. So that definitely took time. Empowerment and Boundaries Melinda: Just really allowing myself to feel how terrible the codependency situation was. And that allowed me to move forward. Realizing that I wasn’t the kind of person who was gonna say, well I’m gonna focus on making myself happy. And let him have his life in our home in our relationship. That wasn’t gonna work for me. I could not abide a relationship with a person taking advantage of the situation to gain advantage of my compassion, my understanding. And really not supporting me and being a fair partner. And so that’s why I bring up about gender, and are women being encouraged to look the other way and take responsibility for men’s bad behavior. Just the message that we have to even help take care of them. And I think that can easily become exploited. Anne: Absolutely. Therapy-Induced Trauma Anne: With this concept of codependency in your experience with therapists, how did codependency cause therapy induced trauma? Let’s talk about that for a bit. Melinda: Yeah, we had worked with mostly traditional therapists, marriage and family therapists. Anne: Many sex addiction therapists claim to know about betrayal trauma, but they don’t actually practice it. They just do codependency and call it betrayal trauma. And that is dangerous. Sex addiction therapists don’t seem to understand it. The best people seem to be abuse experts from what we’ve experienced. Melinda: A therapist we’d been with for a long time left me with a lot of trauma. I have a lot of hesitation to even find a new therapist. Codependency is a framework that’s part of a lot of therapy training. It’s a dance, that you have a relationship dance, and you each have a part in all your stuff and his stuff. Our therapists fail to recognize, like you said, abuse and trauma. So they fail to understand what abuse looks like, what covert abuse looks like, and what emotional abuse looks like. That abusers can come into an office and look like the calmest, sweetest, most cooperative people. While you’re the partner tearing her hair out and looking like a crazy woman in the office. Then you look like the one who’s unhinged and angry. And our therapist did say, if it wasn’t for your dynamic, he wouldn’t have cheated. And I later realized, no, it has nothing to do with me. I had to realize that it was part of his retaliation for me, even having expectations of cooperation and accountability in our relationship. Neutrality in Therapy Melinda: And instead of being cooperative and accountable. He thought, well, she’s no good. She’s giving me a hard time. Women on Pornhub are better for me. Anne: Right, which is what abusers want. They would like to manipulate and, I won’t say, beat down physically, but to the point where they get what they want. That’s the point of the abuse. I mean, I had to retrain my brain with affirmations for emotional abuse victims. And for a therapist not to notice it, it’s also interesting in the progressive communities, for example. And I tend to live in that world, in an effort to be politically correct. They end up throwing victims under the bus unknowingly. So you’d think they would understand abuse, but I have found neither side understands it. conservatives and liberals, neither one of those groups truly understands abuse. Melinda: Yes, I don’t think therapists actually understand trauma and how to be trauma informed around betrayal. Our therapist was trained to be even handed, you don’t take sides. Anne: Neutrality only serves the perpetrator, because neutrality is there are two sides to the story, and both stories are of equal truth. And it serves the perpetrator, because if they can say, I did this, but she did this. We have this toxic dance. It’s a toxic relationship, rather than saying, I’m the abuser. Some go as far as to say, I didn’t do anything wrong, and she’s the abuser. So many victims are accused of abuse themselves, which is also super scary. Melinda: Yes. Victim Blaming in Therapy Melinda: And in fact, in our therapy sessions and even my conversations with my spouse, I said, you know, he betrayed me. I said this to our therapist. He betrayed me. And she said, well, I think you’ve both betrayed each other. And I thought, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I did not. And I’ve only had loyalty and allegiance to our marriage and family life together. So that was just red meat for him to feed his victimhood, Anne: I’m guessing the abuse got worse. Melinda: It just continued the pattern of blaming me, being covertly abusive, gaslighting and love bombing. Then he’d wonder why I withdrew. And blowing up at me for withdrawal. And just kept continuing. As I saw this pattern over and over again, I’m holding my boundary. I’m saying clearly what I need, what I expect. He couldn’t get past that in my boundary. He tried love bombing. I love you, I love you, I love you. He tried all kinds of things. He wanted me to let go of what I knew in my heart was needed for us to have a healthy relationship. For me to let go of expectations of him and by declaring his undying love and grandiose gestures, and I wasn’t going to accept it. I knew in my heart that I needed something authentic. Love Bombing & Manipulation Anne: Like one woman, she said, okay, I’m going to file for divorce. She filed, he came back and said, I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything. And she said, okay, these are the things you need to do. And he didn’t do those things, but he would say the right things, right? So you can clearly see when their actions are not matching their words. That’s manipulation, grooming, love bombing and not recovery. Melinda: And of course, when I said here love bombing, he said, How do you judge me? You’re judging me. And so I thought, I’m not going to get anywhere, because I’m trying to call out and name the things that are not right in this situation. That are not working with the desire to see things work, not to punish. And that was another accusation that I constantly faced. That I was trying to punish, control and avoid my own problems by naming what was happening. Anne: Well, the weird thing is that one of your own problems is that you were being abused. So you clearly stated one of your own problems. Melinda: Women use their voice. and speak up. A lot of our rage and anger in these situations is that we’re tired of being exploited, abused or taken advantage of. We’re written off, we’re told we’re crazy or want to control everything. I think we have to recognize male entitlement in many situations. Empowerment Through Boundaries Melinda: I think that gets missed when we’re just thinking about, well, women are punishing because she can’t look at her own stuff. Or she’s controlling the situations because of her own trauma. And I think so many women are pretty self-reflective and pretty thoughtful. Women have been working on their own sort of self healing for many, many years. Let’s celebrate that and acknowledge that women have evolved a lot of good self care, and empowerment. Abusive men need to have a lot more work around how to come along with us. I do think the codependency models kind of holding women responsible for their partner’s alcoholism, that’s just from another time. And I think. women are doing their own healing. They’ve been doing it for a long time. I think we need to work on abusive men and their entitlement. Anne: I love feminist theory. I’m a happy, unabashed and unapologetic feminist. And I think radical feminism is the only way to beat this. By saying my opinions are just as important as yours. What I want in a marriage is just as important, and if you want someone who will be quiet and look the other way. This marriage will not work for me. And I, as a woman, have the right to say that, and I have the right to set boundaries around it. It’s okay with me if that’s not what you want. Mirroring with lies Anne: And if it’s not, then have a nice life. So when I first married. I am opposed, and I know that many listeners aren’t. So I do not want to offend anyone right now. I oppose guns and motorcycles. When I dated my ex-husband, I said to him, if you like guns and motorcycles, that is super cool for you, right? Like, I am so happy for you. That’s great. I will not date you. So you just do your thing, shine on, and live your life. And he told me, I don’t ride motorcycles. And I don’t like guns. I’m not a gun person. And I was like, cool. Well, I found out later that was a complete lie and manipulation. So I tried to be upfront, I was very obvious about it, what I wanted. And he thought he could gaslight me. Rather than saying, oh, you know what? I love guns and motorcycles. We’re probably not a good fit. Do you know what I mean? So same thing with a pornography. I don’t want someone who will cheat and look at pornography, lie and manipulate me. So if that’s who you are, then shine on. You live your life just far away from me. And I think women are becoming empowered to the point where they can start saying that. The hard thing is when the man looks like that person, when he manipulates you. Dating After Abuse Anne: And now I’m not dating, but if I go on a date I would actually probably keep my opinions to myself, because I don’t want him to know what I think, I just want to know what he thinks. So I’d maybe say, How do you feel about guns? Without telling him what I thought, so that I could hear what he thought, just without knowing what I thought. Does that make sense? So that I can’t be manipulated. So I think my dating strategy will be much more cautious and take it a lot slower, and also not put everything out there while I get to know the person. Because I don’t want them to use it against me or to use it to manipulate me. I’m afraid someone will groom me again. Let’s put it that way. Melinda: Yeah, I think men in this world have to understand what we’ve been through and why we may come off as guarded or protective, or suspicious. Despite our best intentions to be trusting and open hearted, there’s a lot that some of us have been through that makes that very difficult. Anne: Well, and I think we’ve learned to look for what a trustworthy person looks like. It takes time. You cannot determine that from a five minute conversation or a 10 minute conversation. You can’t determine it from a one two hour date. It takes time, years and experience to figure out whether someone is trustworthy. So taking our time is important. Not being manipulated anymore Anne: And had we done that before, we might not have even hit the nail on the head. Because we might not have known what we were looking for, but we know better now, which is awesome. Melinda: That’s a great point. I think that’s where I’ve arrived to know clearly what I’m about. And when I see something disconnected, or when I meet someone disconnected from that, it’s incompatible. I can see it more clearly, and that helps, I think. That you just know yourself better and recognize somebody else that might be unhealthy for you. To your point of having the boundaries and being willing to say, you know, this isn’t for me. This relationship isn’t for me, because, you know, you’re doing you, and it’s not working for me. That I know not all women can do that. I know so many women trapped in these situations, for whatever reason. And leaving is, may feel worse than staying if they held their boundary. But for me, I found that as I struggled, we have two children. So leaving took a while, but eventually I found the logistical possibilities to make it happen, to have him leave. That’s when things really changed. He couldn’t hide and manipulate me anymore because he wasn’t around. I could stand more firmly, and then he had to reckon with himself. And so, he reckons with himself now. I’m still not sure if that’ll bring us back together. Anne: Well, thank you so much Melinda for coming on today’s podcast. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I loved the word weaponizing. So I want everybody to consider in what ways certain therapy language hurts abuse victims.

Husband future faking is when a husband uses promises about the future (trips, counseling, moving, budgets, a baby, “I’ll change”) to control what you do today, delaying consequences, buying time, and keeping access, without producing consistent, verifiable change. Future faking = promises now, no follow-through later. It spikes after discovery (you catch lies, porn, affairs, money issues). Real change is quiet, boring, measurable for months, not speeches. Protect your safety and watch behavior. 10 Signs Your Husband Is Future Faking Vague timelines: “Soon,” “after things calm down,” no date ever sticks. You do the labor: You plan/pay while he “tries.” Brief performance, then slide. Story keeps shifting: New reasons each week why the plan moved. No transparency: Secret devices, hidden accounts, locked phone habits. Grand gestures after discovery: Big promise wave right after you find evidence. Love-bomb sandwich: Promise → short effort → quiet backslide → new promise. Pressure to trust, not verify: You’re “negative” if you ask for proof. Budget “tomorrow,” spending “today”: Money talks don’t match transactions. Therapy as theater: He “goes to therapy,” but honesty and access never change. Your gut stays tense: Your body doesn’t feel safer despite the speeches. Future Faking vs. Real Change (side-by-side) Future Faking (Control) Real Change (Safety) Big speeches, airy timelines He does the thing. You carry logistics & cost He does it and pays for it. Secret phones/finances Full access (devices, locations, budget) Mood swings around scrutiny The thing he said would be done is done. Short “streaks,” then relapse Months of consistency, verified To see if it’s real, you don’t need to chase updates. The thing he spoke about will come to fruition without you checking up on it. Why Husbands Future Fake Delay consequences: Pause separation, legal steps, or financial boundaries. Maintain access: Home, money, sex, reputation, kids. Manage your emotions: Replace your alarm with hope—then run the same play again. How to Know If He’s Future Faking Document behavior, not speeches Create a promise log (date → promise → deadline → outcome → notes). Screenshot texts, calendar invites, bank statements. Patterns beat arguments. Move from talk to tests In your mind, move to thinking about observable checkpoints (e.g., “By [date], I’ll check to see if I have access to the bank account.”) (Notice: no threats, no explanations. You protect your peace and watch behavior.) Examples of Husband Future Faking “We’ll start counseling next month.” “I’ll quit porn; you have to trust me.” “I’ll fix the money stuff.” FAQs About Husband Future Faking Is husband future faking a form of emotional abuse?Yes. It manipulates your decisions today with promises that rarely materialize, keeping you in harm’s way emotionally. How long should I wait for “real change”?Look for months of quiet, consistent, verifiable behavior, without you bringing it up again. Should I confront him about future faking?Debate often feeds the cycle. Document, set boundaries, and observe from a safe distance. Next steps (support that centers your safety) Living Free Workshop: step-by-step effective boundaries (thought, action, communication) with practical examples. BTR Group Sessions: live, daily online groups to support you. Free Emotional Abuse Quiz on btr.org to name what’s happening and get tailored resources. Transcript: Is Your Husband Future Faking? Here’s How To Tell Anne: So, I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mackenzie. Welcome. Mackenzie: So I happened to be at a conference, and there was a wonderful speaker there, and she introduced him. She talked a little bit about his story and sort of a larger context. And she’s a wonderful speaker and writer. She really sold him. So when I met him in person a month later. I had such a favorable impression. Anne: This happens with people who maybe get set up or people who attend the same congregation or workplace. Where his reputation sort of precedes him. It’s coming from other people, there’s kind of an automatic trust, because other people have vouched for him ahead of you meeting him. Mackenzie: Absolutely, yeah, when you have multiple solid professionals, people in the public eye. Who have these favorable relationships. There was a counselor, and they were a strong supporter, even financially with some of his work. So there was just a legitimacy. Early Red Flags of Husband Future Faking Mackenzie: Is my husband a jerk? And now with the benefit of hindsight, and more than a decade later, I can see that he carefully crafted this image. At least at the time I met him, he had done a pretty good job of it. He had obtained some prestigious fellowships. You know, you’re like, how did I not see it? But the truth is, how did they not see it? I was new in that space with important people surrounding him, and he really exploited that. I felt a little awestruck that he and I would have a conversation. Our relationship developed because he reached out and asked me to be part of these different groups. I think he added me on social media, and sent me a message. He started to ask me to do things, and I think that’s really important, because it was a low time in my life. And feeling like I could make a difference for a cause greater than myself was appealing. I was at the tail end of being part of a religious group, and I was looking for a place to belong. You hear a story of suffering, pain, and injustice. Regardless of the origin of the story, there’s a tenancy toward wanting to help. He wanted to use my speaking and writing skills for his organization. Kind of an informal, volunteer sort of thing. We would have different touch points, whether it was like a meeting, action or activity. He was definitely orchestrating the crossing of paths. How Husband Future Faking Lures You In (Moving In, Promises, and Red Flags) Mackenzie: I was taking the LSAT. I had ambitions of being a lawyer. I think he felt that between my skills with writing, speaking, and then studying the law, I would be really helpful. Whether it was can you write this grant proposal for me? When you’re a good writer, it’s apparently an in demand skill that not great people want to access for themselves. It was a perfect storm. I had no idea what I was getting involved with, none. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that a person who presented like this could use other people around them to cover up. I was really, really conflicted when he showed interest. Anne: Talk more about the conflict you experienced. Mackenzie: He claimed he and his ex spouse had attorneys working on their case. We are separated, it’s nearly done. I was so naive. He began to ask me, do you want to live with me in this fancy high rise apartment downtown? He didn’t live there, and he never ended up living there. Because he was future faking. Anne: Also, there’s probably some manipulation in terms of flattery. This person everybody else says is amazing, thinks I’m worth his attention. And this is how good they are at manipulation. Mackenzie: Yeah, it’s true. I wasn’t in need of anything from him. But I was lonely. I moved in with him. I had never had intercourse before. And I had my own career. Around the time I was like, it’s just not working. It’s just toxic. Too much conflict. I found out I was expecting my child. And I was raised in an environment where a two parent family is everything. Discovering the Truth: When Husband Future Faking Turns Into Betrayal Makenzie: I was trying my hardest to make that work for what I believed was the right thing for my child. I even remember like a physical change in myself, the night I found out I was expecting. It was like I couldn’t fully stand up for myself anymore with him. I had to change myself so that he would respond more favorably. So that the environment for our child and me would be safer. I know now that’s not good. At the time, I thought I would work hard to help better our lives. When I knew something was really, really wrong, though. In the middle of my pregnancy, he was asleep and it was late. He locked his phone down. I’ve never met another person who locked down their devices to this degree. Who took them everywhere, bathroom, anywhere. I somehow got in his phone, and I found a conversation with a stranger, aggressively soliciting for it. And I was like in shock. I mean, I’m pregnant, and I’m terrified. I’m like, I need to get tested for STDs. You know, a range of thoughts. I was like shaking, and then I went and woke him up and confronted him. Probably the dumbest thing I could have done. And he just kind of sat there for a long time, and then he told me a story. He was trying to entrap the police, by reverse stinging their stings. The next day I had work, and after work I stayed somewhere else. I was like, I need to think. And then within a few days, I joined affair therapy groups and stuff. If your husband is acting like a jerk and you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. After the Promises: Therapy, Financial Abuse, and Husband Future Faking Mackenzie: Abuse wasn’t part of the conversation. It was a lot of just focusing on what you can do for yourself in your own situation. That’s the irony, I’m stuck in this dude’s mess. In the distraction of therapy groups, . And, I end up like, you know, moving back with him. Anne: You don’t know what you don’t know. Mackenzie: No, you don’t! Exactly! And when you’re raised in that church environment, you’re taught to trust people. I’m not looking for something I don’t know exists. Anne: Yeah, a church setting, they’re not like, this is wickedness. Mackenzie: Right. Anne: Avoid these people in your own home. They’re more like, there’s these bad people outside that are like, far away from us. Mackenzie: Right, the others. Anne: Yeah, exactly, rather than your own husband, or partner. Mackenzie: Yeah. Anne: The person close to you, is he a jerk or an evil person? Mackenzie: Exactly, he’s the person you’re supposed to trust and rely on. So at the end of the year that our child was born. My partner had a car accident and sustained a traumatic brain injury. This accident changed everything we were doing. And any negative that was going on before was amplified. And then there were quite a few new issues. He had extensive amounts of therapies: Neuropsychologists, physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy. This became part of our life for several years, both in a hospital, in an outpatient setting, and then even in our home. We had therapists coming through the home. So through this, we did couples counseling. We actually got referred to what was supposedly one of the top couples counselors in this whole health system. Why Couples Counseling Often Misses Husband Future Faking and Covert Abuse Mackenzie: I like cleared an entire day of work. I was no longer going to work on Wednesdays, because we were going to go to couples counseling. And it was a huge deal. I had to like find childcare and all this stuff. Our case completely perplexed them. And after a few months, he told me he was “too sick” to go to counseling. And I put too sick in quote marks because he was not too sick to go to the Apple store. Yes, after his accident, he never went back to work. Not only did he not financially contribute in any meaningful way. He began to drain our finances to an extreme amount using various Apps and games. I mean, like hundreds and thousands of dollars were going missing. It was insane. Was it something like gambling? I’ll never truly know everything. He even used cryptocurrency. Then a couple of years later, just before we split, we did couples therapy again. I was so ambivalent by that point. I remember the therapist repeating seems like you don’t know you could go either way. And I was so numbed out by that point because of the amount of discoveries I’d found. Just outrageous behavior, betrayals, and frightening stuff. I tried to talk about a lot of it in counseling. But, in the counseling sphere, I don’t think abuse was brought up, and I had several counselors. The Final Straw: When Husband Future Faking Escalates to Criminal or Dangerous Behavior Mackenzie: The most disturbing discovery I made was that he had conversations with teenagers on Snapchat, in texts. And I’m finding this out piecemeal, by having a computer left up. He was very, very shrewd and secretive, extremely secretive. I found he was sending pictures of our child, using our child as part of grooming someone else. I was outraged. And that was the point, enough things had happened. I decided I am not going to confront him about this. Anne: Ah, using the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies. Mackenzie: Absolutely, so it took me a little over a year. I did some big career moves, I prepared in secret. I wanted to sustain myself and my child. We weren’t married, but in our state, there is this common law factor. Due to so much interaction with the medical system. He had encouraged me to begin to refer to him as my husband. It was calculated. The last couple’s counselor, the last time I talked with her, I called her and I was so apologetic. I’m like, I’m so sorry. I know I did not cancel with 24 hours notice, we’re not going to be able to have our couples counseling session today because I’m trying to see if there’s a tracker on my car. Anne: Yeah, that is crazy that you went to multiple therapists and none of them identified it as abuse. Mackenzie: I know, I could go on and on about post separation abuse and legal problems. I learned later, thanks to the IRS, about actual criminal activity. He was caught red handed through Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah, he was sentenced to decades in prison. Breaking Free from Husband Future Faking: Legal Protection and Safety Planning Mackenzie: I got a protective order when I left. I spent beyond my life savings on legal fees to protect myself and my child. Because I realized, this person was so destructive. I mean, I haven’t even mentioned there’s assault. There’s so many things, but this person was just hell bent on destruction and doing what they wanted to do. And I needed to protect myself and my child. That’s why I filed for divorce from someone I wasn’t married to, because I wanted a legal end to any connection with this person. Because they’re terrifying, like, absolutely terrifying. Like, when I left, he stalked me, actually showed up at my workplace looking for me. And he’s still a victim. I hadn’t heard from him in a long time, but a few months ago, he sent a letter to my dad’s house. He was pretty much an atheist when we were together, but now it looks like he’s found God. Anne: Let’s just add spiritual abuse to it. Mackenzie:Yeah, never in my wildest dreams would I expect someone who’s publicly advocating for others and putting themselves in the super public role. Would actually commit behind the scenes crimes with other people’s children. This goes way beyond just being a jerk. When you put it all together, and I spent years in a caregiving role for this person. I funded their life. Whatever money he was getting. He did not put in the family pot, but whatever I earned, he needed access to it. Anne: Wow, did the advocates who propped him up and supported him become aware that he was a criminal and in prison? Life After Husband Future Faking: Rebuilding Trust and Recognizing Manipulation Mackenzie: Yes, most of those people, to my knowledge, do not support him now. He borrowed quite a sum of money to bail himself out of jail. And that money didn’t go back to that person. I think it shows you the mind of someone like this, someone with an antisocial personality. The mind of someone who is rational, but with no conscience. There is no boundary, they will not limit themselves to any sort of moral behavior. Periodically, he’d tell me I was his moral compass. And I didn’t really understand what he meant by that. But I think I get it a little more now. He had no real moral direction. Anne: To use a good cause as a shield for your own bad behavior is really alarming. Mackenzie: It is, it makes me suspicious of people who are extremely vocal, especially men. It makes me wonder, because I’ve seen the underside of that. I trust a lot less than I did before. Anne: Umhmm, yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. Thank you so much. You’ve been through so much, and I’m happy to hear that you are safe. Mackenzie: Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it.

Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse. 6 Examples of Covert Emotional Abuse Covert Emotional Abuse Is A Lack Of Consideration Neglect Is Covert Emotional Abuse Secret Pornography Use Is Covert Emotional Abuse Lying Is Covert Emotional Abuse Covert Emotional Abuse Looks Nice and Kind If It’s Covert Emotional Abuse, There Will Be No Resolution Covert Emotional Abuse Is Dangerous Because It’s Invisible Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse. Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often under reacting to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing. Covert Abusers Lie – And Put Victims In Serious Danger Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion. Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact. When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal. Covert Abusers Normalize Abuse By Harming Victims Quietly One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers. Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage. Covert Abusers Hide Behind The “Sex Addict” Label Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners. While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), all men who use pornography are abusers. When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers can change, but it’s probably not through CSAT therapists. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life. But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing. Transcript: What Is Covert Emotional Abuse? Anne: Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody. We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira. Nadira: Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds. But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs. Nadira’s Early Relationship and Red Flags Anne: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar. Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning? Nadira: What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern. My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization. He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong. Honeymoon Incident: First Example of Abuse Nadira: On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again. Anne: Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go? Nadira: I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me? That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete. Emotional Neglect: Second Example of covert emotional Abuse Nadira: He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home. I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant. And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme. Anne: That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect? Discovering exploitative material: Third Example of Abuse Nadira: Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it. Anne: And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you. Nadira: Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it. I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me. Lying and Deception: Fourth Example of Abuse Anne: Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help? Nadira: Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops. He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this. So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona. The Smiling Abuser: Fifth Example of covert emotional Abuse Anne: Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse, even something like what is featurism. It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser? Nadira: Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction. So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person. Addiction Therapy and Its Failures: Sixth Example of Abuse Nadira: So I filed for divorce. Anne: Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about how to deal with their addict husband and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution. They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you. Nadira: It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous. Anne: For women wondering if their husband is addicted to this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse? Recognizing Abuse Through the Podcast Nadira: Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life. This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is. He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused. And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years. Covert emotional Abuse Impacts on Children Nadira: Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend. Anne: That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you. Nadira: They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members. Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile. He spent all our money Nadira: I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband. The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children. If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous. So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe. The Need for Safety & Protection Nadira: And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place. Anne: Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter. We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period. And that’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Anne: In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem. Faith and Misguided Counsel for covert emotional abuse Anne: After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation? Nadira: My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together. And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places. I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago. The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever. The Broader Impact of exploitative Material Nadira: The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children. And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too. Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well. Nadira: Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly. Addiction treatment promises & Hopes Nadira: Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened. I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right? Anne: Me too. No woman wants a divorce. Nadira: But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop. We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail. Covert emotional abuse: Empathy For Addiction Nadira: With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect. Anne: Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative. And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame. But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse. The Addiction Model doesn’t Protect victims Nadira: It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser. Anne: And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts. And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not. Nadira: Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me. Therapists & Clergy Failures Nadira: He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this. That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right? Anne: Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast. Nadira: So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective. One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betraya Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way. exploitative Material as a covert emotional Abuse Issue Nadira: Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated. Anne: Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma. And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse. Finding the Right Path to Recovery Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path. So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights.

Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation. Here’s What To Do If You Wonder, Is My Husband Hiding Money? 1. Recognize The Signs Of Financial Deception Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you. 2. Do Your homework and keep good receords If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on. 3. Don’t Talk To Your Husband About Your Suspicions Until… If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself. To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation. 4. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Understand That Lying About Money Is A Form Of Control It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you. We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY. Transcript: Is My Husband Hiding Money? Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud. She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria. Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me. Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story? Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom. Meeting Her Ex-Husband Victoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church. My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife. Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?” Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. I didn’t see any of the signs husband is controlling. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it. Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that. Red Flags & Controlling Behavior Escalates Victoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately. I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me. But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream. Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Marriage & Extreme Control Victoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere. My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us. We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him. Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help. Victoria Ellen: Absolutely. Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe. Challenges With The Justice System Anne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior? Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child. And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it. He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it. Custody Battle & Court Struggles Victoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children. They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser. I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear. Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else. The Need For Justices To Be Educated Victoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old. Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud. Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it. Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults. Abuse By The Justice System Anne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming. Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent. Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system. Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?” Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was. Is My ex-Husband Hiding something? Finding Aliases & Gathering Evidence Victoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa. Anne: Wow. Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true. I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own. My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Courtroom Strategies Victoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.” I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was. I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker. You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable. He’s Indicted On Federal Charges Victoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money. Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds. And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd. And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him. The Trial Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation. Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds. Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges. The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes. Is My Ex-Husband Hiding Money? Sentencing Victoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it. Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded? Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable. You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison. Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved. Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it. Differences Between Court Systems Victoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely. Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody. There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts? Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white. And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos. Is He Hiding Money? Fighting for the truth to be told Victoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes. And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level. Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?” That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent? Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy. Advocating for Justice Reform Together Anne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing. Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail. Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care. Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight. Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.