Celeste Berke

In this episode of The Sales Edge Podcast, host Celeste dives deep into the challenges and misconceptions in B2B sales with special guest Mike Mulfelder, a seasoned fractional head of sales and Gap Selling advocate with over 35 years of experience. If you’ve been stuck in the same sales cycle or questioning why your pipeline forecasts are off, this episode will hit home. What You’ll Learn: Business Acumen Blind Spots: Why understanding how your customer makes money is the ultimate sales advantage and the key to building trust. Pipeline Purge & Rebuild: How Mike has taken underqualified pipelines, reduced them by up to 90%, and rebuilt them into revenue-driving machines. Stop the BANT Obsession: Why traditional qualification methods like BANT don’t work and how to shift your focus to uncovering actionable problems. Tech Won’t Save You: The pitfalls of relying on AI and technology to mask broken processes, and why fixing the fundamentals is essential for scaling. The Competitive Replacement Myth: Why trying to replace a competitor is often a trap that distracts teams from truly winnable deals. Key Moments: [00:05:00] Business Acumen 101: Mike shares the importance of understanding your buyer’s financial ecosystem and how it influences purchasing decisions. [00:10:00] The Catalyst Question: Why identifying the catalyst for change is more critical than tracking surface-level pipeline metrics. [00:19:00] Competitive Replacement Realities: The hard truths about why most competitive replacements fail and how to approach these deals more strategically. [00:29:00] Call Coaching & Accountability: How a single bad sales call can derail progress—and why leadership must prioritize coaching and honest accountability. Takeaways for Sales Leaders: Don’t confuse pipeline volume with qualified opportunities. Technology isn’t a fix-all; it amplifies your processes—good or bad. Focus on foundational strategies that align with your growth objectives, rather than flashy shortcuts that won’t move the needle. Mike’s Sales Edge: Mike’s unyielding honesty and commitment to empowering others set him apart. He shares why being straightforward, even when it’s uncomfortable, is the true mark of a sales leader who wants their team to succeed. PS: Check out Mike’s recent article on the “Magic Bean” myth in sales to dive deeper into how tech obsession is steering teams off course. This episode will challenge the way you think about sales strategy and leave you asking the tough questions about your own processes. Don’t miss it!

[00:00:00] Celeste Berke Knisely:Hello, hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge Podcast. I am joined by Caleb Rice. We had an awesome opportunity to meet in person. We're both sitting here in Colorado, but a couple of weeks ago we met in person in San Diego and he was just such a breath of fresh air and hilarious to boot one some dollars as being like one of the most engaged people in the class and I thought he'd be a great person to have a little chat with. What's changed in the industry as it relates to our buyers and sellers. Caleb, tell us a little bit about your background. Caleb Rice:Thank you so much for doing this and having me on. But also first off, thank you so much for coming out to RBI and helping our team with our training. It was a very informative and very helpful. I know for myself, but also for the rest of the team every day. We have our team chats and everyone's bringing something else up about the training [00:01:00] that they learn and what they're using to source and prospect and all the fun things. So thank, thank you for, for doing that. So yes, Caleb Rice I've been in the industry for a little over 16 years now from Oklahoma, moved out to Colorado for my first job right out of college. I started at the Broadmoor where I started in food and beverage, worked my way up into sales. And most recently I left the Broadmoor at the end of January of this year as director of national sales. The insurance and incentive markets and then joined the Rancho Bernardo in team in San Diego, working fully remote, staying here in Colorado as director of national accounts for the Mid Atlantic, Northeast and the international markets. Celeste Berke Knisely:And what we're talking about here is, how can you be in hospitality and selling a luxury property and you're not there at the [00:02:00] property? You are remote. That has been a huge change in the industry. I've been in the industry since. I won't even date myself, but let's just say 20 years, we would never allow a salesperson to work remote. And nowadays you're actually seeing this happen. Tell us what that switch from on property to remote has been like for you. Caleb Rice:Yeah, no, you know, it, it was interesting because in my mind previously being in an office setting. For a good 10 years every day of my life, literally 7 to 10 minutes south of my house. You're just in that bubble of, oh, this is, this is what's happening. This is how it is. This is what's going on. Everybody else is doing it. Nobody else is working remote. And then as I travel and go to conferences, you know, just talking to industry. friends and [00:03:00] industry colleagues, let alone planners. And I'm just finding this overwhelming growth of, Oh, I work from home. Oh, I've worked from home for years. So then I'm thinking, am I the only one that's not working from home? It's just weird, you know, and interestingly enough, once the pandemic came and went, now it's a thing of the past, people are still working from home. A lot of, a lot of trends and things that you see is like, Oh, everybody's coming back to the office. Are they really, because I'm working on some sales calls next week for New York and a whole company is fully remote and I'm like, okay, so then what, it's this New York address. Oh, we still have the building, but nobody's there. So it's just this different perception of what used to be compared to the reality of what is now. I used to think like, Oh no, home is not my productive place. Work is my productive place. Well, now with the switch, I find that I [00:04:00] get more done here at home because it's quiet. It's me and the dogs. Nobody's coming in my office 15 times within an hour. Like I can actually focus on what I'm supposed to be doing. So it is great, but it's, it's all a mindset. And it's also fun to work fun clothes and shorts and, you know, dress Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, nobody knows, but I'm wearing like green, green shorts on her. I don't even match, but nobody knows. They can't see it. In the wintertime, I'm in sweat pants or maybe PJs, but what's interesting is kind of the shift and we're seeing it on the buyer side as well as the seller side where hospitality companies have to, they have to, let me stress that, adapt. I like to say adapt or die, but it's true. Our old school laurels of how we've always done stuff like sales blitzes, riding the elevator, going to visit people, like. Times have changed. And when I worked with your team, I really opened up their eyes to this like digital shift where a [00:05:00] lot of sales and a lot of sales conversations happen on a digital channel, whether that's LinkedIn, whether that's the Facebook or instant message texting. I mean, I, I came from the time and you did too, especially at like luxury, you do like YouTube. That's taboo to text somebody. And now we are texting with buyers colleagues, whomever. All the time. So this shift, let's say in meeting our buyers where they are, you mentioned before we hit record, like part of the problem with the industry is we need more business. We need more visibility. We need more people to know who we are, but our buyers are no longer in the traditional places where they used to be. So I can't visit them with ease. How are you managing that transition from. not being able to go to a company and have a planned visit, but now having to have these conversations online and [00:06:00] still drive the outcomes. How have you managed that knowing that you were in the thick of like, we only meet in person before to now we'll meet over teams or zoom wherever you are. Yeah. Hmm. Caleb Rice:You know, and, and I think you, you made a good point just then you have to meet people where they're at. And that's on a whole multiple levels, whether it be physically, whether it be, hey, I am stressed to the hilt and I cannot meet with you until X day. Okay, that's something as well. So. seeing a need, feeling a need, hearing a need, but then also coming at it with a solution as well. And not just one, but kind of backup solutions. Okay. If this one doesn't work, what are we going to backfill it with? What, whether that's finding your clients, Hey, we're both going to the same conference. I noticed on your professional Facebook LinkedIn wall that you're going to be attending [00:07:00] XYZ conference. I myself will be attending XYZ conference. I would love to buy you a coffee. Let me know what your availability is. Here's my cell phone number, you know, and then pop it into a text message, which again is very odd to be texting a client unless a client is a friend. It just seems weird. Like we need to be on the phone. We need to be emailing. What's this texting? What are we kids? But no, it's just meeting the client where they are. You find that, Hey. I work fully remote. Okay. Well, what city are you in? I'm in Philadelphia. Perfect. Well, this particular trip, I'm going somewhere other than Philadelphia, but I've now made a note in my system and changed your address that says Philadelphia. So whenever I pull in a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania list, next time I find myself that direction, it'll populate and I can go see that client where she's at. Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, and that's like, [00:08:00] that's such a good nuance, right? For salespeople. We can assume somebody is tied to their company, wherever their company headquarters is. That's just the building that has the sign on it. I think that's a great tip for sellers is really finding out from your buyers, especially if you're, Looking at bigger ticket items like a luxury experience, right? A conference, a convention, an annual meeting, and you want to meet somebody in person because it is a big deal to them to plan an event. They're putting their personal brand on the line. They want to ensure that you can take care of them, that it. comes out successful, that you have experience in this and often those face to face, if you don't know where that person resides, you can't coincide it. And I think a lot of people, salespeople sleep on that. They have no clue where buyers are these days and you can't take it for base value that where their company is, they're located there anymore. Caleb Rice:Well, you know, and I think it's human nature that we thrive [00:09:00] on interpersonal like connections, right? And not having those face to face connections. Kind of steers us in a completely different direction. And so I also find on the same hand that a lot of planners, because they have a particular job that they are trying to successfully do, a lot of them are very analytical in the way that they do and think and everything. And some people just might not want to talk face to face or see you or have you come see them. They only want to talk over email. They only want to talk over a phone. And then they come, they have an amazing, successful program and you either never hear from them again because they've moved on or you revoke them for a future program, but you also have to somewhat read in between those digital lines of finding that comfort zone with those planners because you can be hot to try and doing what you're supposed to [00:10:00] be doing and your leadership's telling you to get out there. But you also have to be the realist of what's actually happening in your Celeste Berke Knisely:Yes, and you touched on a good point there. We often talk from a gap selling lens about like sales is really helping. It's helping someone achieve, you know, where they are right now and their desired outcome. Should they change? Should they invest with you? Like why change going through this series of like a change management process? And you hit the nail on the head of if you don't understand your buyer and especially in hospitality, which is like. A deluge of RFPs that come your way. And it's, it can be transactional, whereas like, okay, I want to respond because we all know time to respond to that RFP could make or break the decision. But if we're not getting to know our buyer and those small nuances, like you just said, how do they prefer to be communicated with, I would bet like you're 16 years of [00:11:00] experience, like you have honed that And there are so many sellers out there that are probably like, Oh, I never even thought to ask about that. But like what an awesome way to honor somebody who may be newer to planning. And it's like, dude, don't call me. Please don't call me. Don't even email me. Like my emails are overloaded. Whereas a more seasoned planner may want to like. Spend some time on the phone. They want to talk through things. But if you didn't ask that question, you wouldn't know how they want to be communicated with. Caleb Rice:You know, it kind of reminds me, remember the colored bands you would wear whenever you would go to events during or right after the pandemic of people's comfort levels of interaction. Red means stay away, go back to your room. And it's just like, no red means you should have stayed home. Yellow was moderate. Like, you know, we can give those fist bumps and those elbow tags and then greens are like, what's pandemic let's give a hug. You know, it's like [00:12:00] taking those colored bands and then just having to figure out what those color codes are from any little subtle hint you can pull from anywhere. Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, totally. And, and really reading that buyer behavior, which we talked to your team about, it is getting so competitive out there, especially in the luxury market where individuals and companies are spending a lot of money more so for the experience, right? The unique factor, the amazing food and beverage, but as a seller, You have to show up and, and have those attributes as well. And I think being a detective, picking up those key pieces of this person posted this, they like this online, they follow these people, like it helps you with those tiny little nuances as far as an amenity in the room or bringing up a conversation. And I would say. A lot of sellers miss that. How do you make sure? In the class you were like, Hey, I'm, pretty savvy on the LinkedIn, [00:13:00] right? And I was like, all right, this guy's going to be a challenge, but even you walked away with like some nuances and then how to put things in chat, GPT, like all of these different tech tools that 16 years ago, if you told us we would have been doing, we're like, what? We're not doing that. We're not, we're still typing a Caleb Rice:I, I still think back to like the golden rule, like doing others as you want to be had done to you. Like, How do I want to be communicated to? How do I want to be talked to? How do I want to be treated? Why wouldn't I want to then do the same to somebody else? And so whenever you're trying to gather all of this information as much as you can, as quick as you can, because you're right, a lot of times it's whoever's the first proposal in is the one that wins, you know, because it shows like you're right there. You're so focused. But at the end of the day, you still have to make sure and balance it out that you're not [00:14:00] talking at a client or a potential client, you're talking to them. You know, it's, it's the whole thing of like, I hear you, but am I listening to you? You know, and so whenever I'm doing these searches and trying to find as much information as I possibly can, not only on a particular person that is the individual, but also on the company as a whole, whether it be using chat, GPT or LinkedIn or Nolan, you know, I have thousands. Three great opportunities of sourcing agents right here at my fingertips and going down those rabbit trails. It's just, it's crazy how much information you can deduce just by a few little clicks because everything is on the internet, whether you want it to be or not, even home addresses. You know, I'm living in El Paso County, Colorado. I'm always like, I wonder how much that house is. Well, let's go [00:15:00] to the county assessor website and then I find a name and I'm like, oh, I know this. That's where they live. Like everything is on the internet. Anybody can find anybody, but it's just taking the time and focusing in and honing in on what your need is and getting to that Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, and it's about, you know, being a problem solver. And I love how you said like utilizing these digital assets as assists. I like to be like, it's the best unpaid assistant I have, right? When I really want to find out more information it's something I don't know because especially if you're looking at A board or an organization. They all have desired outcomes money. They're trying to raise things are trying to accomplish and the Internet can tell you a lot about that. So you can weave that in when you're having a conversation and you. Ultimately, like a skyrocket, your own credibility as a seller versus what many of us were taught early on in the sales days, which was a form of [00:16:00] bant. Like, Hey, what's your budget? I mean, we all know, you know, like I got a budget. But Caleb Rice:like. You have your list of questions that you have to cover and it's just like, let's get outside of the box, Celeste Berke Knisely:we all know budgets are broken. People often spend more than they thought because they're not educated or they just don't know. They don't even know what they're looking for. We have to help guide them. Caleb Rice:or their budget is from 2015 and they still think that the world operates from nine years ago, like it, Celeste Berke Knisely:Yes, things, things have changed. So looking at this through a lens of like a seller, what has been the biggest change over the past 16 years that you've seen as it relates to Putting yourself out there to build a network so that people talk about you when, when you're not in the room. [00:17:00] What has that shift been from when you first entered the industry till now? Caleb Rice:So whenever I first rolled into sales in my first director role for the insurance and incentive markets, you know, the, the insurance world, the financial world, it, it's been said many times, so I'm not speaking out of turn. It's a very clicky industry. And if you're not in, you're not in, and that's just how, how it goes. That's just kind of who they are. That's who they've always been. Hopefully one day that's not who they will be. But having to like find my way to navigate inside of that was probably the most difficult. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm a director of national sales. Look at this new title, mom. And then like, okay, I have all this support around me. And now what are you do? [00:18:00] I can't even get a return phone call because they don't know me. And so I had to then find ways around that. And it's simply boiled down to just showing up. I would go to conferences. I would go to events. We would be in round table discussions. Questions would be asked. I would raise my hand and give an answer because the more that you can be seen and heard, the more people remember you. Oh, it's that guy. I didn't like his answer, but it's that guy. You know what I mean? And so, regardless of what you're saying, People are seeing you. People are hearing you. And over time, nothing became something. So, you just have, you have to give it time. But, at the end of the day, be yourself. You can't, you can't force. You can't force something that's not natural. You know, a lot of salespeople are good at what they do because it just comes [00:19:00] naturally to them. Talking to strangers, naturally to them. For my two and a half year old, I don't want that to come naturally to him. Me, as a not two and a half year old who's in sales, I want that to come naturally, you know? And so, you just have to find your path and navigate down that path. But at the end of the day, you just be yourself, be yourself because it shows your genuine self of who you are and that People want to work with real, genuine people, not robot sales people that have a bullet point of lists of questions that they're just randomly spark, Oh, we're going to change up the order today. Like no, nobody wants to work with a robot. They want to work with genuine, Celeste Berke Knisely:Death to the qualification checklist that we all came up with. And, and I think that's what really drew me to you is I find myself an outlier too of, I all of a [00:20:00] sudden, you know, Not aware of everybody else that's in the room. And I'm like, I will raise my hand five times because I have a question. And I realized other people probably were thinking it too, or it sparks some conversation. And I am totally there with you as of, you know, 15, 16 years ago, you'd go to an event and you'd say like, gosh, some, everybody knows that person. And when you're just starting out, it can feel uncomfortable to put yourself out there, to build your personal brand and. And you're out there doing that, right? And it was very apparent of like how genuine and authentic you are. And as a result, people speak your name when you're not there and refer you. You got this new job because of someone you knew that you worked with. It is about creating those connections that are lasting, that aren't transactional. And that's what our sellers look for as well. Is this person trying to sell me something or are they actually trying to help me?[00:21:00] Caleb Rice:No, absolutely. Are you in it for the hard sell the soft sell? You know, at the end of the day, I'm in it for the cell. But if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. You know, you're you're busy. Planners are busy. I'm busy. We're all busy in today's world with everything that's going on that. Hey, I can take a no. But just tell me the no, you know what I mean? Don't skirt around, lead me on for months on end without, without any opportunity from the get go that it was even happening. But because you feel bad and don't want to be honest because you don't want to let me down, you now string me along ultimately to let me down. I'm a grown man. Give me your honest feedback. And there's a fly in Celeste Berke Knisely:think from, you know, having little ones in our house, we realize they will tell you the honest truth and you just take it. My [00:22:00] daughter's latest one is telling me how big my butt is and I'm like, all right, I guess that is the truth through a five year old's eyes. So it's those, we often realize adults just had the vulnerability in the mouth of a small toddler. I'm right there with you. Like it. Because we aren't attached to the outcome, it doesn't really hurt our feelings. All right, so as we get ready to close and wrap this up, I always ask guests two questions. One is, what is the myth in sales that you would like to go away, that you'd like to bust, you've heard it for 16 years, and you would like it to be done? Caleb Rice:Oh, the, okay. This is a good point. Contracting. So there are so many companies out there, and I get it. I work for a company as well that we're all trying our best to protect our asset, which is our own individual company. [00:23:00] Whenever an RFP comes through, a beautiful proposal is sent by yours truly. They come back with more buying questions. We play this tennis match back and forth, back and forth. Okay, I think we want to go to contract. Here's 13 pages of contract language that I need to be added to this, your hotel standard contract. And I'm late. 13 pages is double the size of my standard contract. It's pointless. And the majority of all of that language is already in my standard contract. So instead of just going at it from the get go of saying, Oh no, if you don't use this language, we can't move forward with you, but have a conversation. Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, why is that important to you that we use your contract like help me understand[00:24:00] Caleb Rice:Formation is already in my contract. Let's, will you just review it first? So I would say, Celeste Berke Knisely:you read it by chance? Caleb Rice:yeah, yeah. Or again, are you just going down your bullet point list of crossing Celeste Berke Knisely:Oh, I love that checklist can go both ways. We got to stop the both ways checklist from a buyer and Caleb Rice:absolutely. Site side story real fast. I had a third party. A couple of years ago, negotiating a contract for a client. I'm pushing through, I'm pushing through, I'm pushing through. They're coming back, not agreeable, not agreeable, not agreeable, not agreeable. And I don't know what made me think of this because I'm, in my mind, the third party is working on behalf of the client, even though they're getting paid by me a commission. So technically aren't they working for me anyway pushing through, [00:25:00] pushing through, pushing through. And finally, I just said, well, what does the client think about, because it was one specific clause, what does the client say about this? Well, they haven't even reviewed the contract yet, and we had been going at it for a good three weeks. And I'm like, what, what do you mean they haven't reviewed the contract yet? Oh, well, as their representative third party, we do all of it and then present them with perfectly beautifully bow tied contract that says, just put your signature on here. We've done all the hard work so you can retain us for all the future years. And so it's just like. Absolutely not. I am done talking about this until we get the client on the line. I said, let's call him. Let's get the client on the line because I'm pretty sure we're right where we need to be. And you're working now against the opportunity instead of helping [00:26:00] for the opportunity. So it's just like, at the end of the day, if you could actually get to the client, I get it. Third parties. Thank you so much for bringing us the business. We wouldn't be where we are today without third party help. So we're very appreciative of that. Thank you for the assist. Now let me talk to the client and get us across the finish line. Celeste Berke Knisely:We could go on that's a whole nother episode just in itself. All right last question is you are you're a unique individual What Is your sales edge, like what makes you unique as a seller? Caleb Rice:Well, I think I already, I think I already hit on it and it's just being genuinely me at the end of the day. It's not this used car salesman. Let you want some snake oil today. I have it in 15 different colors and fragrances at the end of the day. You get me, [00:27:00] you know, and I just happen to be a smiling goofy face of a beautiful luxury resort in sunny San Diego. So yeah, I'm unique. I'm unique to Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, totally. And, and I loved the time with the team. I will echo, I think, you know, the majority of the team really. You know, dynamic personalities. You have people that have been not the majority like everybody is that is an individual, but there are a handful that really stuck out. I can see how you all gel and then going to the property. I was like, oh, hello. This is where I want to come. It felt like I was in the middle of, like, a. Like, an oasis where I could meander and listen to the water, but also look at the golf course. And there were trees, like it, it, I felt calm. And that was very different from many experiences of when you go to a conference and you're sitting in a cold conference room and it's stark, people are talking at [00:28:00] you. So I think what you guys have there is truly special. And I'm Here cheering you on, that you're able to work remote, not have to uproot your family that you worked so hard to build over these past couple of years and you were able to find a home and doing it remotely. Like who knew that that was the thing. Caleb Rice:know it's like the best of both worlds and I get to travel to San Diego as often as I need to, let alone want to. So life is actually really good. Celeste Berke Knisely:definitely. So hospitality. This is a testament to when we start to think outside the box and we have issues with talent, that once we stop putting people in that box and we look elsewhere, you can Get to the same desired results by thinking differently and Caleb is I think you're a couple of people before you worked remote and now your whole team is partially remote or or their hybrid, which [00:29:00] again is completely unheard of in this industry, but just goes to show that when you take care of employees and you look at them holistically, it can change the culture and the working environment. Caleb Rice:I couldn't agree more. Celeste Berke Knisely:I appreciate your time. It's, it's a pleasure. I'm looking forward to hearing about, about your travels. I know it's tough kneeling people down in big cities, but this is a PSA out there. If you are an event planner or you book meetings or large gatherings or events, and someone hits you up to wine and dine you, take them up on it. Cause usually it's a great experience. You meet some amazing people along the way and those people are connected to other people just like Caleb. So appreciate your time here. And, and for those who aren't connected to Caleb and want to continue to follow your story, your advocacy for parental rights in the workplace and raising a child in today's day and age, [00:30:00] follow him on, on LinkedIn. Caleb Rice:Thanks, Celeste.

Welcome to another episode of The Sales Edge podcast, where our host, Celeste Berke, dives deep into a thought-provoking discussion with the insightful Hannah Sabetti. In this engaging episode, Hannah shares her expertise in sales enablement and breaks down the myths surrounding the industry. From her years of experience in the SaaS, healthcare, and financial space, she unveils the holistic approach she takes to enablement, offering valuable insights into supporting sales and customer success teams. With a keen focus on empathy and understanding the human side of sales, Hannah provides a unique perspective on how to navigate the challenges of today's sales landscape. So, sit back and prepare to gain valuable knowledge and inspiration from this enlightening conversation on The Sales Edge. Jump to a specific time stamp here! 00:00 Identifying gaps and enabling sales team success. 06:08 Identify gaps, investigate source, and prioritize impact. 06:58 Sellers understanding buyers' needs and gaps. 12:32 Empathetic approach to addressing feedback and struggles. 15:36 New enablement staff need time to ramp. 19:30 Different sales styles exist to meet needs. 23:20 Be succinct, try different ways, people matter.  

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Sales Edge Podcast. We are here with Candace who's in sales enablement. I'm really excited. I typically talk with either leaders or ICs. So this is my first foray into sales enablement, which has become a very hot topic on LinkedIn. Let's face it. Celeste Berke [00:00:17]: But what struck me about Candace and why I reached out is she is active on the LinkedIn platform talking about the misses in enablement, where we need to go as a collective sales community, and so we are going to dive in today. Candace, tell us a little bit about yourself and your role. Candace [00:00:40]: Yeah. So, I mean, first about me and, well, my wife and mom and lifelong enabler. And right now, where I'm focused the most is actually sales leadership enablement. So took the opportunity to work with a really great company who had awesome foresight into seeing some glaring challenges that we definitely need to solve. Celeste Berke [00:01:02]: Love that. Candace [00:01:03]: So Set the leadership level. Celeste Berke [00:01:04]: Granicus. Right? I love that nuance there. So, hopefully, the listeners and those who watch us on video from our homes will pick up on that nuance that Candace said. So sales leadership enablement. Candace, tell us about that shift and what you're seeing with most companies, where they're focusing, and where that tiny shift has come in for you. Candace [00:01:29]: Yeah. I think, historically, enablement focuses on the sales process, the sale, right, sales methodology, all things I see. Right? Which is which is great. It's important to support. But I think a key element that continually gets left out of that is how are we equipping sales leaders? And a a big portion to that and something I had shared on another podcast conversation was there's kind of a historical precedence of, you know, companies promoting top performers, right, with the idea that it's gonna translate immediately to a successful revenue or sales leader. And then we start to have challenges, and it's always why. And I think a big part of answering the why is looking at, well, how are we enabling our our leaders to lead, you know, especially our sales leaders? If we look at reasons why people leave companies, we know the data points. There's a lot of times they leave poor poor leaders. Candace [00:02:36]: And so I think for companies, there's a responsibility going forward to develop mature leaders, but just a responsibility to equip your leaders. You're investing in people and leadership. And to make that full investment, you need to make sure that they're equipped and enabled. Celeste Berke [00:02:55]: So something you said, really, it's something that our team, the ASG Gap Selling team has been perplexed about. We recently went up for a huge deal and it became glaring during the sales process that there was well, if we teach the ICs how to do that, everything is magically going to change. The pipeline will get better. Their win rate will improve. In our team, we're really focused on, it doesn't matter who comes in to train your sales team at this point. That's like the minutia. What we are seeing is a complete lack of ownership from the leadership level, enablement, sales leadership to say half of the onus is on us. So we can train a team to a methodology, to a process, but if we don't have any reinforcement and the sales leadership isn't willing to do that, like, heavy lifting every day of let me look at your opportunities, are we having pipeline meeting, 1 on 1 coaching to the skills level? Let me give you some areas of development, now practice, drills, and they turn their nose up late, and we don't wanna do that. Celeste Berke [00:04:03]: Nothing is going to stick. So how are you ensuring that you are equipping leaders to understand, like, how important it is to have their buy in? Candace [00:04:19]: It has to be we have to sell things internally just as much as we do externally. Right? And so the things that we can't forget, I think we often do, is that we think, oh, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be a behavior change. But if we're not demonstrating or providing the ROI versus, you know, cost of inaction or where the gap is to our sales, they're not bought in. They need to be sold to. They need to know what's in it for them. They need to know what they need to give up or what muscle to flex. Now to the ownership piece, this is really important. Candace [00:04:56]: There's this kind of funny back and forth of, like, who's who's coaching? Who's gonna own this? And everyone's passing the ball on the field, but nobody wants to kind of be the quarterback. Some of it's symptomatic of some external fear of not wanting to make a a bad decision, but some of it is about enablement and equipping. Some leaders have to start with some things like an operating rhythm. Like, how are you operating? You got a lot of meetings. But your time has to be spent with your team. So what's your operating rhythm between the meetings that you have and then setting up reoccurring time with your team and then team calls so that you're also even thematically, right, revisiting sales skills because coaching is a collaborative accountability. It's shared. So, you know, hate to spoil this for you. Candace [00:05:45]: It's not enablement's responsibility and sales agent's responsibility. As both. You know? And it's working together on that. We're gonna have the ownership, and we're gonna have an operating rhythm to reinforce the things that we see and partner on it rather than try to pull in each direction. That's it's something that I see over and over again. Right? It's this frenemy kind of behavior between enablement and sales. Right? And you even see some of the conversations, like, on LinkedIn that are a little bit wild in terms of either they didn't have an effective enabler or, you know, they had a sales leader who either was immature or didn't have scales and couldn't ask just didn't have the humility to ask. Celeste Berke [00:06:36]: The revenue speed model that talks about the importance of this shared responsibility across the revenue organization from it's not just skills development, that common DNA, then regardless of methodology, it has to be carried up through operation or, through the opportunity management and then through the forecast management layer. And that, yes, everybody operating from the same playbook, so to speak, so that one team isn't running off in one direction and another in another direction, but I think there is this, like, finger pointing, and I believe some of our language is like, it's not your fault. And even I think people are wondering, well, what isn't sales enablement? Where's the crossover between the IC and leadership? And if it doesn't work, is this sales enablement's fault? And I love how you said it. It's almost like a triangle, like a 3 legged stool of it's really everybody working together to figure this out, and that may look different from organization to organization based on the strength of the leaders that are in place. Candace [00:07:40]: Yeah. And how many leaders you have. Right? Maybe you have couple or maybe you have a larger leadership team. And with your leaders, you're gonna have them at different places in their leadership journey. Right? First time leaders have to get some basic frameworks in place. Right? Starting with one thing that I I think you have to start with is if you were going to step into a role where you're leading other people, you have to unpack your bias, and you have to go through that first, and you have to understand yourself and what your lens is. And listen. The first argument can't be, well, I'm not. Candace [00:08:16]: It doesn't always look like that. You know what's another fun word for bias? It's called preference. Right? And understanding how you operate and your lens because when you have a team of people, they've all come in with a different worldview, lived experience, and belief system than you. And so what you have to do when you look at that is meet them where they are, and you cannot do that. You cannot get to somebody else until you get over yourself and understand yourself first to meet somebody where they are. And so I think that's your first responsibility as a sales leader is, okay, this is the first thing I've gotta go through is at least some unconscious bias training. I've got to dig in with somebody about, you know, when do I get frustrated? When do I show up frustrated? What are gonna be some things that I'm going to react to versus respond, and how do I start to to work through that in helping, you know, assess other people's performance? Am I clear about how people are measured? Right, so that I'm not preferring certain people to other people? Right? Am I clear on how my sellers are going to be measured in the expectations, and then am I clear about how I'm going to be measured? What are they looking at qualitatively? What are they looking at quantitatively with, you know, attainment? So those are some of the first things you've got to step into as a leader and say, okay. These are the things I need to uncheck and be prepared with first, and then, you know, go from go from there. Candace [00:09:55]: Enablement from that leader perspective then is helping you get those tools in place, getting you a toolkit so you can start to step into that leadership role instead of going into it, trying to figure it out, and trying to do it the way you think you led or you performed as a seller. Celeste Berke [00:10:18]: Yeah. And so something I found interesting, I had large organization the other day who's contemplating a sales methodology and and, you know, which way do we go, a lot of misses, Horrible quota attainment. Right? Revenue declines. The pipeline's not there. Things have been in the pipeline for a couple of years years. Seller is not understanding the business problems. They're talking about product, yet there seems to be these silos. There's massive issues with forecasting, lack of adoption of the CRM. Celeste Berke [00:10:52]: And like you said, everybody starts doing their own thing. Mhmm. When you start to see that kind of people existing in silos, what is your best advice to kind of take a pause and bring everybody back together to the vision to move forward? Candace [00:11:09]: That's a really good question. One of the thing people need a vision to strive for and work to be done. And I think one of the jobs that of bringing people back together is having that vision and the CRO or whoever your sales executive is start getting in on that ground level again with communication. What's our vision here? What's in it for you? What are the expectations? And that starts to be the the verbiage and the narrative going forward, but making sure that you're connecting that vision to field level mission. Right? And field level mission is this is your role as a seller in executing on our vision and how we're going forward as a revenue organization. As a revenue organization, that means we need this and this to happen, and then it has to be repeated. Right? And then there has to be feedback loops around change management and how people are feeling and understanding that messaging. And so there's a lot more intentional communication that needs to happen to start getting that back on track. Candace [00:12:20]: And so really important after change has taken place in a revenue or for people or there's been growth and what operations and workflows worked before may not be working now. Right? Usually, what, you know, gets a company from a to b doesn't get you to c, right, when the growth is is a lot larger. You know? And you add people and things. It's just naturally gonna get a little bit more complex and layered. And so you just have to take a breath and and put clarity back into the air. I've Celeste Berke [00:12:53]: obviously talked with a lot of organizations who don't have someone in enablement, and it baffles me because I often to look as at enablement is kind of like this plays a mediator role sometimes between the 2. I see your vision. I see this. Let me help you synthesize it so that everybody feels like they've come to the table, they've been heard, and we make a plan to move forward where everybody can be in alignment. In your experience, I know you come from sales leadership. At what inflection point does the company miss out on not having someone enablement? Like, do you have any thoughts on size of the company, revenue, team, leadership when it's like, enablement here before you, you know, add more sales roles? Candace [00:13:45]: Yeah. I'm gonna say something probably really unpopular when it comes to this. I think enablement needs to be one of your more, early hires. You usually have people who are really good enablers. There's a couple people I would point to out in the community who are who are focused on who are really understanding of behaviors, behavior change, and change management. And so I think having somebody early on in an organization, also, that gives you leverage to help grow with an organization. Right? But you're gonna have to have somebody who can not only facilitate change, but is also able to spend time building and get some of those things that are needed in place as well. So you may have a little bit of a different skill set initially where their, you know, enablement of 1 is you're a therapist, you're a builder, you know, you're you're you're you're an operations leader. Candace [00:14:43]: Right? But I think getting enablement early on helps build more of a strategic partnership, also helping to get clarity. A lot of times what happens in an organization is people are saying the same things, but they're expressing them differently based on their lens and their role. Right? And so I think really good enablers can hear patterns and hear themes and go, this is what we're saying. Right? And just like you said, synthesizing, distilling that information and go, this is about you know, we're if we're in a revenue organization, we have to move a line, right, for it to be successful and to create an ecosystem for our our sales leaders to lead and for our sellers to sell. And so us trying to pull in multiple directions is really futile a lot of times when and, essentially, what is our goal to do as an organization? Drive revenue. Right? Create a customer experience that is important. What gets in the way of that is the self. Right? And The ego. Candace [00:16:01]: Not being heard. Yes. And not being heard. Right? And I think really good enablers being in can hear things, can sit and listen, observe really well, you know, behaviors and things that are happening, go, you know what? Here's what this person's saying and this person's saying. We're on a similar track. Let's and and kind of redistill that communication. Celeste Berke [00:16:28]: Some conversations I've been having with those in enablement who, in their organization, specifically, appears very reactive. We're seeing this symptom of the team having a low win rate. So I need you to now go make some training around how they can improve their win rate. Now go do that and come back. And to me, that feels like very reactive versus, like you said, everybody coming together to say, what's going on? What are the behaviors? What is causing this? What is this stemming from? Just plugging in a training doesn't mean that our team is magically going to improve their win rates. And so I'd be curious as how do we move away from enablement being, like, very reactive to having a seat at the table and being proactive for the strategic Candace [00:17:24]: vision. That's yeah. Proactive is something I think we hear a lot. I've experienced it myself. I think you experience it initially when you're going through change as an organization. You're more reactive. Right? You're focused on lagging indicators instead of getting to that place of leading. And it takes a little it's gonna take a little bit of muscle. Candace [00:17:47]: It's gonna take saying no. It's also gonna I ask really hard questions, and I'm and and so I I put a lot out there to go, are we answering this? Because one thing I think is the miss on that and why we get reactive is because we don't agree on the problem first. Right? And I think the first responsibility is we've gotta come together and go. Are we identifying the problem? Right? People are really solution focused. Right? We talk about all the time, like, in the greater sales community. Product, product, product. Right? Slap some technology on it. Right? You know, it's it's kinda like if you've ever it it's just like that's gonna be the the catchall solution. Candace [00:18:35]: Right? Instead of a Band Aid, it's like slap some technology on that baby. Right? And we're but but we're trying to say, you know, do some technology when we have people issues. Right? And the core of the people issue is, are we clear on the problem? So really good training, really good enablement, really good sellers are fixated externally on problems in other people's businesses. But internally, we've gotta exercise the same sales acumen. Are we clear and aligned on the problem? Right? Now we can execute whether there's really a need for training and whether or not this is a fix, you know, within our own ecosystem before we're requiring a change in behavior. Right? We don't we don't do that. A lot of times, we just go fix the behavior. You know? We want other people to change. Candace [00:19:29]: I don't need to change, but I need you to change. Right? We do so hard. Celeste Berke [00:19:34]: We had a team meeting on Monday, and it's funny for as much as we talk about problem centricity, we too got caught up in the, like, well, here's all the ways that we can fix it and what we can do. And Keenan kept honing us back like, okay. What problem are we trying to solve here? Like, what is the problem? Speak to me in the problem. And we're all like, oh, we just all jumped to the solution, like, trying to fix it. So I think you're spot on that Mhmm. Get really good about doing that externally, but internally, we forget that just because we make a change here, it doesn't really mean it's going to really impact what's going on. It becomes that Band Aid. Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:20:14]: And I think that's why we hear a lot of times like, well, sales training doesn't work. A methodology, like, a checklist, it doesn't work. And it's like, well, it doesn't work because maybe we didn't address the the problem that actually was at hand, but We don't understand the problem. There is an alignment on the problem inside the organization, and thus, it's just we just added more. We just clapped some some lipstick on on the pig like like the Band Aid. Where being a sales leader and then you went into enablement, like, where did you learn this? What was your inspiration? Where did you get training from that allowed you to move to where where you are today? Candace [00:20:58]: When I so the first time I was promoted to a sales leader, I was really terrible, and I was in my early twenties. And before that, I was actually a really terrible seller, and I was put on a pimp until I got some coaching. Right? But then once I got some co like, coaching, and I understood what I was doing, like, I ran with it, and then I got promoted because the one thing that's at my core is I truly love people, and it's in what I do, and that's just how I show up. But when I stepped into that leadership role, I managed to activity, and I drove my team, you know, bananas because I was like, how many dials did you make today? You know? And I was really fortunate because at the time, the the I start off in in higher education on in online. Right? Asynchronous learning, like, before it was cool, before. And, you know, the company had a the foresight then to hire a really phenomenal performance management team of just powerhouse women. And I had a performance management coach make some time with me and took me off campus to have a conversation, a real conversation, and asked for permission first. Like, do you want some feedback on how you're showing up as a leader? And at first, I was really kind of a jerk about it because I was like, I got promoted. Candace [00:22:34]: I'm here. I'm doing the thing. I'm the only, you know, I'm the only female with all these guys around. I'm doing it. And she was like, you're not doing it. I mean so she was like, but she was like, but I think you can be a really great leader. And she's like, it's not something that you have to know naturally. She's like, you gotta make a choice to learn it. Candace [00:23:02]: And that was everything for me. That literally changed a fundamental shift in I wasn't someone who knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. You know? I ended up in sales because I like to talk to people and you know? And it it's one of those things that kinda happened. But her mentorship was everything to me. I did turn things around, and then what we discovered was that I had a love for training, that I would lean in with my team. I would focus on, you know, giving them space to learn and then became more of a you know, my style of leadership is always training and an environment to learn. And then my team started doing really, really well. And it's because I had to demonstrate better behavior first. Candace [00:23:49]: And that's why I think enablement for a leader is so exponentially important because you demonstrate the behavior, and that always comes from leadership. Right? Like, you know, people just a lot of times in organizations, they see behaviors, and then they navigate them. Celeste Berke [00:24:09]: Like our kids. Candace [00:24:10]: And that's a really common You Celeste Berke [00:24:13]: see our kids. 100%. I say shit, and then my daughter's like, mommy said shit. Shit. Shit. Shit. Candace [00:24:21]: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. I can't I can't tell my son, no. You can't have that brownie, and then I go and eat the brownie because I want him to be better than me. Candace [00:24:35]: That doesn't work with any human ever. Right? Like, we just get we'll just get mad and resentful, and then we, you know, we rebel in our natural human so there's a whole lot of, you know, sociology and psychology to that. But at the end of the day, it boils down to, as a leader, what kind of behavior do you demonstrate to your team? And that's where enablement matters for a leader is how are you showing up day in and day out, how are you responding, and how are you treating each and every individual that is on your team. Celeste Berke [00:25:12]: I love that. And I love that someone took time out to help you versus going in the other direction of, like, you're not doing this. These are all the things that you're missing, and if only more people did that, you know, what what would this world look like? And I appreciate you sharing that. It's never easy when we have to peel back the layers of our similar to you, I was the first time leader, and I say, you don't know what I'm doing. You have to find your community of people who are gonna help build you up, and we're still learning every every single day. As we wind down, I always love asking guests 2 questions. 1 being, what's your sales edge? It's like, what what is your sales enablement edge? I think you've alluded to it, but I'd love to know in your in your own words, like, what's kind of that unique factor about you? Candace [00:26:06]: I would say I'm very observant. Like, I'm really keen in identifying behaviors, and I can unpack people and things really fast because I am insatiably curious. I have you know, asking hard questions and being able to I did talk a lot through this. You asked me questions, but, typically, I love to have conversations where I get to ask a lot of questions and learn about you and learn about people's stories. And so I think that me being observant and really listening to people and meeting them where they are has kind of helped me learn how to navigate business to where I'm observant, and I can pick up on things that people aren't paying attention to. Celeste Berke [00:26:47]: Well and I can tell just from this conversation, which is was all about you and your expertise as it should be, is just your level of, like, empathy, understanding, like, of human behavior, and then how do you meet people where they are in order so they feel heard, which is, we often talk a lot about of, like, don't lose your human in sales. Right? People wanna be heard, and when we go into that robotic behavior or we start doing things that we don't understand what the implications are. For example, I went a couple of years within an organization of having my 1 on 1 canceled for years every single week. Like, after a while, the story I told myself was, like, I'm not good enough. This isn't I'm not worthy of a conversation. Like, there have I learned everything I can? And I think that really shows, like, how much you truly care about people, but your willingness to also ask tough questions that may push people to grow. Because when we're really uncomfortable, hope that's typically when we accept it where growth happens. So what is one sales myth as as we close out here that if it could go away or you could bust, what would that sales myth be? Candace [00:28:15]: I would say that you have to be a certain that you have to be a top performer to be a good leader. I think that's definitely a myth. I think you have to now let's not make sure we twist something. I think you have to be able to be a good seller if you're gonna be a sales leader. Right? But I don't think you have to be a lone wolf, top performer. Right? And then that's gonna translate to success. Leaders are not born. They are learned. Candace [00:28:46]: And so I think that's really what it boils down to is that if you wanna be a good seller, it's a decision. It's a choice that you decide to make. The same applies for leadership. If you wanna be a good leader, choose to be 1 and do the work. Celeste Berke [00:29:02]: Well, on that note, that was like a a mic drop. It's been a pleasure. I hope for those who are watching this, you connect with Candace, and she puts out content, is very active on LinkedIn, sharing and in communities. And I'm sure if you are in sales enablement or are struggling in an organization and want to ask her a few questions, she will happily share her experience or how she does things. So it's truly been a pleasure having having you on, and I look forward to staying in touch. Candace [00:29:36]: Yes. Thank you, Celeste. I appreciate you inviting me into your space for the conversation, so thank you.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm joined today by Jen. And fun fact, Friday, we both come up through hospitality and hotels, and she works a lot from home in her bed. We decided we're both going to do this podcast from our beds today Casual Friday. Jen Suski [00:00:21]: And be comfortable. Maybe we have Some people wear Hawaiian. Celeste Berke [00:00:24]: Maybe we have PJ bottoms on. I don't know. We'll see. Jen, tell us Jen Suski [00:00:29]: a little bit about yourself. My name's Jen. I am director of business development for Hotel Key, which is a property management system. I come from Hilton Hotels. I have a long career in hospitality. I'm a mom of 2 amazing boys via embryo donation, and I am excited to talk to you. Celeste Berke [00:00:49]: Same. And we were chatting off air about everybody tells you as a female, don't get pregnant. From age 12 until age 18, it is basically you do not get pregnant. You do everything you can to not get pregnant. And we were chatting around how difficult it is to actually get pregnant as you let Jen Suski [00:01:11]: a boy sneeze in your direction. You'll ruin your life. As You're gonna get knocked up. Celeste Berke [00:01:16]: As you age. Yes. And so you are a fierce advocate, Kip, for talking about pregnancy. Getting pregnant is difficult. The amount of money that it costs in this country to go through the process, the emotional toll it takes on the relationship, on your work. So if if somebody wants to talk with you offline or your DMs open to chatting about those struggles, Jen Suski [00:01:42]: wide open. Wide open. It is it's a taboo con it's a taboo subject of the whole realm of infertility, and so many women are just alone. And there's not a lot of embryo donation, surrogacy, adoption. There's so much out there that needs to be talked about. And I am an open body. Celeste Berke [00:02:12]: The working female balancing that, it sounds like your journey was almost 6 years with this, of balancing that emotional load as well as working full time. Yeah. Probably one of the Jen Suski [00:02:27]: biggest reasons I left working on property for hotels is because I knew I was about to undergo hormone treatment, and I didn't know what how my body was gonna react to that. I needed more flexibility to work from home, and that's what I wanted. And to get that, I needed to leave hotels, and that was very hard. But I jumped into the tech space to be able to sell the hotels, and it was honestly the best decision I ever made. Celeste Berke [00:02:49]: So the hospitality tech space is freaking booming. And I talk with a lot of people who are in hospitality tech who are sellers who don't understand this interesting world of hotels, what RevPAR is, any of that stuff that is the driver of hotels. What I am seeing is a lack of understanding about why technology and keeping up with the advances in technology is so important for the hospitality industry. Obviously, every industry, but hospitality, they often are laggards. They lag behind slow adopters, last to adopt. What have you witnessed from being in this space and leading a team as it relates to old way versus new way? Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely correct, but it goes both ways. Celeste Berke [00:03:38]: So on the tech side, I have done a lot Jen Suski [00:03:41]: of education and training about what, like, what's a star report? What is a red book? You know what Celeste Berke [00:03:47]: I mean? Like I know. I know. Jen Suski [00:03:50]: It's like, what does the front desk have to do during their shift? Because there's this whole thing of, like, I don't understand why can't the front desk just enter a phone number for the text messaging platform. Well, they got a lot going on. They are the face of that hotel, and they don't need 1 more thing to do, and this is why. And then when you're talking to the hotel, yeah, implementing any kind of change in hotel is is very difficult because, you know, they do have so much going on. So it's kind of that if it's not broke, don't fix it. So they kinda have that blind eye to all of this new tech because they're like, it's a nice to have, not Yeah. A must have. Right? So kind of showing them that it's it's what the guests wants when you, like, you have to remind them when they go to check beast. Jen Suski [00:04:42]: Be our guest. Be our guest. It's not happening. Like, let let the technology help you keep your scores up, help, you know, improve your processes, especially with how the change that has been happening since COVID even and the lack of staffing and just the change in the overall attitude of guests checking the hotel. Celeste Berke [00:05:09]: What people don't realize about the hospitality industry is that a lot of hotels have this turn and burn. Right? Unless your extended stay or in a resort area, it's a lot of 1 to 2 night stays. There's a lot of wear and tear on the property. Imagine someone coming to your house and every single day you're changing the linen, cleaning the bathroom, like, they're in and out, in and out. Guests got really pissed off during COVID about all the amenities were taken away. What do you mean I need to take off my own bedding? I don't get service. And so the expectation of the price point that you're paying is very high. It was an industry that was decimated, myself included, massive layoffs. Celeste Berke [00:05:46]: So trying to get people to come back to an industry where they're often not treated very well by guests is difficult. And also, breaking the stigma around everything is looked at as, like, how how much is this gonna cost? What's this gonna cost per room? What is the bottom line? What is the impact? Because if if I'm not making my GOP or if I don't have this type of flow through, we have an issue versus and you and I chatted about this, turning that conversation into what does this mean for an owner, what does this mean to the bank when we are running more efficiently, We have lower turnover. We have better guest experience, which means guest satisfaction scores are going up. There's a lot of things that hotels are measured on that have, like, a really big impact to refinancing. If an owner is able to acquire more hotels, if they're able to get a loan, like the profitability, all of these things, and we're still at this place where people aren't tying together, but this is how we've always done it versus, alright, this may be a complete change to the way that we're doing business. So that was a rant there. I wanna know from a management standpoint, you come from that side, and you're now managing a team to sell into that space, how are you educating and having conversations with your team for their own growth, educating them on process and people and the buying habits. Jen Suski [00:07:26]: Yeah. It's it's interesting. I mean, like, it's again, like you said, it's education. It works on both sides of of it from the hotels and the staff. I do weekly 1 on ones for sure, and we talk about, you know, developments, where you wanna be, how can we help get you there, that type of thing. But then we also talk about, okay, so you're you're selling into these hotels and what they need the education on. So, again, they don't know what the red book is. They don't know what paper maintenance tickets are. Jen Suski [00:07:56]: I'm like, do you know that they still they still write. Do you know what carbon copy is? I have people that don't know what carbon copy means. I feel ancient. So anyway, yeah, explaining to them that process of what their hotels are doing and how we can help them. We have a maintenance app in our property management system. So if there's an issue, if the housekeeper sees that the AC, the HVAC unit is broken, they can log it and flag the maintenance person. And guess what, GM? At the end of the year, you can go and say, room 305 seems to have issues, like, every month with this this HVAC unit. Maybe we need to replace that, you know, and keeping up with the building and things like that instead of trying to, like, sort through all of these paper tickets or these audit banker's boxes that are filling up your storage closets. Celeste Berke [00:08:47]: Right. It's insane. Bit of data, you're able to make decisions around it. Like, room 305, it's happened this many times. We've dedicated this many man hours to it. It's cost us this much. And we like to say in, you know, gap selling terms, this is the gap. Right? If if it's if our desired state is to have that room occupied 91% of the time, this is how much money we're making per room, but it's costing us this much versus the cost of a new AC units. Celeste Berke [00:09:16]: This is the business case for it. But if you do not have that information and I was trying to tell somebody the other day, like, okay. There was this board, and it had 3 pegs. And engineering used you used to put the ticket up there, and you would write what was wrong, and then they would move it to pending. And when it was finished, the copy went here, and then that copy went over here. And they're just like, what? That does that still exist. Jen Suski [00:09:44]: Yes. Yes. It does still exist. They just don't understand. Then when you explain it to GM, they're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. They have so much going on in a hotel at any given day. It could be underwater or, like, the sprinkler had burst somewhere. Jen Suski [00:09:59]: You know what I mean? They need somebody to go out there tell them, hey. There is a better way to do this. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:10:04]: I had someone reach out to me, an internal champion. As we look at elevating a business conversation, we're talking about actual business problems, taking that information and synthesizing it and saying, well, what does this mean to the property overall? What is this preventing us from doing? Is my labor costs skyrocketing? What's happening to my p and l? They don't have that data, and and it's similar when you're talking to a hotel general manager. Some of these hotels, they cannot make a decision. They will never be able to sign off on anything. You're wasting your time educating. Yes. You can have them become a champion, but I think a lot of salespeople don't realize that for their ICP. They aren't the person that you really need to be talking to. Celeste Berke [00:10:44]: And and sometimes salespeople, they're, like, afraid to have that higher level conversation because they feel like I'm not a CFO. I'm not in that person's shoes. And you're like, you're the one bringing the value. Right? You're you are an expert in your area. They're an expert in their area. How do you work with your team on crossing that chasm from, hey. This person is just, like, a nice to have conversation. They'll give us a lot of day to day information, but we really need to be having conversation with this person over here. Jen Suski [00:11:13]: How do I do that? Honestly, there's no method. I have no method other than to be like, yeah. You just you need to you need to get over the fear. Honestly, just do it. If they really need help, I'm happy to join calls with them. I record every single one of my my sales calls, and I do sales calls just like I asked the team to do sales calls so that we can review them. And they can listen to any one of my calls. Otherwise, I mean, I'll pull up a Zoom or a Google Meet, and I will do the call and have them on it to listen. Jen Suski [00:11:40]: You gotta be comfortable. You gotta be confident, and they're not gonna get to that until they're just you just tell them you gotta do it. Celeste Berke [00:11:47]: And I love that. I'm seeing a real lack, and I hate to say it's because of time. I think all of us use time as an excuse. Talking like real big companies, like multibillion dollar companies where individual contributors say, I've been here 2 years. I've never had anybody record or review my phone calls because they don't have time. And the thing is a lot of our teams are product forwards. They go in and talk about the product, and we miss the mark on what's happening inside the business. A great example of this is my husband came home 2 days ago and said, oh, this guy walked into the hotel. Celeste Berke [00:12:24]: I heard him ask the front desk. Where's your general manager? And he walked over and he interrupted my conversation, And he put a brochure in my face about a cleaning solution and started talking all about it and then started talking about the pricing and that can negotiate the pricing. I said, first of all, did he even ask you if you have the it's an ice maker. An ice maker? What if you outsource your ice? What if you brought it in? What if you didn't even have it? Jen Suski [00:12:51]: What if you have no need for ice? Like, for whatever. Celeste Berke [00:12:54]: You know what Jen Suski [00:12:54]: I mean? Celeste Berke [00:12:55]: Or what Jen Suski [00:12:55]: if your hotel is fully anti ice? Celeste Berke [00:12:57]: But if you're and he said no, this still happens every day. Maybe he's never had an issue with this ice maker. Maybe it's broken every single day. You don't know because you haven't assessed the current situation to find out what's going on. We just went right into pitching our product. And I'm not sure where I was going with this, but, oh, I do know, is that all of us fall into that habit where we get a little product happy and we're excited about it because our product is the best thing, and so we start talking about it. But if we don't have leadership saying, hey. You missed this clue. Celeste Berke [00:13:25]: I missed 1 the other day. 2 of us missed it. Someone said, we grew 85% year over year over year, and I was like, oh, that's so awesome. That's so great. You know? Blah blah blah. And then my coaching on the call was, why weren't you triggered by that? Like, woah. Woah. Woah. Celeste Berke [00:13:40]: What do you mean you grew 85%? You just told me that your team didn't make quota. How How did you all grow by 85% and meet goal? Well, it turns out the founders sold 50%. That's how they grew 85%. Well, they don't want founders to be involved in the sales process. So if you take the founders out, the sales team actually used to grow 200% in order to make up for that. But because I missed that, I didn't ask that question. So I love that you're taking the time to work with the team because I hear from so many people who say, oh, my manager doesn't coach me on anything. Jen Suski [00:14:17]: Well, how do they expect you to meet your goals and get better at them? Celeste Berke [00:14:22]: Change behavior. Jen Suski [00:14:24]: Yeah. Exactly. Celeste Berke [00:14:25]: I'd love to know if any of your team members come from hospitality sales. Jen Suski [00:14:30]: They do not. This is probably Celeste Berke [00:14:31]: a good thing. You don't have to break the, like Jen Suski [00:14:35]: apparently, yeah, it's be like, I'm basically a unicorn. A lot of hotel salespeople don't don't make it in the tech space. I just learned that. Celeste Berke [00:14:43]: Because it's very Vantage. And and also it's 99 purse 9% inbound when you're in I don't what am I supposed to ask? I don't know. Don't I just talk about the hotel and the great things with you? Do not do that. Alright. What I always ask this, and thank you for talking to me about your leadership. It's it's awesome to see a female leaders in the SAS space, but also growing and mentoring a team and juggling a family. What is your sales edge? Tell tell the listeners. Jen Suski [00:15:26]: My separates me as a salesperson from all the other salespeople? I'm actually a hotel girl. Like I said, it's I'm a unicorn. I've actually been in this space. I started in housekeeping. I still and I tell this story all the time, but I still have the very first room key for the 1st holiday in I ever stayed at when I was 12 years old that I saved my allowance for to stay at because I thought only fancy people stayed in hotels, which is not, as I know now accurate, but I've always loved hotels, always. And I always sincerely want to help them achieve goals, whatever they may be with whatever I'm selling. So my 1st step whenever I moved to a new company is to talk to my friends in the hospitality space, get them to do a demo with me so that I can work that out. Like, is this something that Celeste Berke [00:16:15]: you can use? How would Jen Suski [00:16:16]: you use this? Like, that type of things. Yeah. Because yeah. I mean, like, ultimately, that's my goal. That's my dream is to help as many hotels as I can. And now that I'm not on property before, I was helping 1, the one I was working at, and now I can help so many more. So, I mean, it's really exciting. Celeste Berke [00:16:34]: And that's really interesting because I'm working with a company. Yeah. It's in a sales process, but they're just now taking a step back and having the team go out and talk to customers about the product. And I'm hearing this some from some, like, amazing BDRs and AEs. Like, the 1st step is just going out to talk to people. Talk to people who are that you would be selling into. Talk to existing customers. Like, get their voice as to what was going on because that's gonna help you to understand what the problem information is, what you help solve for, hear it from the customer voice, what was going on within the organization, and then those that came on board, how it helped them. Jen Suski [00:17:13]: And you can't get sales. Thought I was nuts. Yeah. They thought I was nuts because the very first thing I had them do was just to go out and call people and not sell to them. And they're just like, okay. I don't know what to say. I don't know Celeste Berke [00:17:25]: what to do. Don't sell. Because we have to Jen Suski [00:17:27]: Get to know them. Celeste Berke [00:17:28]: Breath, and there's so much pressure on Jen Suski [00:17:31]: what what Celeste Berke [00:17:31]: are you adding to the pipeline? What are the conversations? Are you moving it through the stage? Jen Suski [00:17:35]: And you're like, Celeste Berke [00:17:36]: I don't even know what what we're doing here. I need to reassess this because it's often shifting. I've been out Jen Suski [00:17:44]: of hotels for 5 years, so be really arrogant of me to say that I still knew what, you know, hotels needed. So it's really important for me to keep in communication with these guys to be like, okay. What's going on now? Because I don't know. I'm not there. I'm not don't have boots on the ground anymore. Celeste Berke [00:18:00]: Sure. Jen Suski [00:18:01]: So you gotta stay a part Celeste Berke [00:18:02]: of the community. And a big a big shift, obviously, after COVID with the customers. Like, things have completely changed. Priorities have changed. And if you come in talking about your product without truly understanding what is going on within that organization, not just the hotel, you know, site specific, but the ownership group or the management company or the brand at large, you're doing yourself a disservice to where you could put your foot in your mouth or potentially say something that totally isn't in alignment with where they are. So awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I love the commitment to customers and getting people to slow down, learn from the customer voice. Celeste Berke [00:18:47]: So there's a lot of sales advice that's thrown out there. I would love to hear from you a myth that you want to bust as far as something, like, we should do more of, do less of this, implement this? What would have sales Oh. Jen Suski [00:19:10]: That you have to do a 100 cold calls a day? Listen. I'm not against cold calling. It's a part of the process, but you can meet your goals with 10 cold calls a week the same way somebody can meet it with, like, a1000. It's not about picking up a list and just call call call call call. It's about, quality over quantity and recognizing not everyone likes to talk to you on the phone. Maybe they wanna chat on LinkedIn, like the aim days. And I've gotten so much business just doing that or emailing. Some people like it, some people are never gonna read your email. Jen Suski [00:19:48]: Some Some people really do like that phone call. Celeste Berke [00:19:50]: And I would say knowing your audience is very important as well. So, you know, I come from I'm a little bit older than you, but I come from the times of you would never text anybody. You would never do that. Jen Suski [00:20:08]: Oh, yeah. Celeste Berke [00:20:08]: So you have to know how to get ahold of someone. Calling a general manager really interrupts their day if they're not sitting in their office versus trying to find a way that you can connect with them either at the beginning of the day or the end of the day when it's a little bit more convenient just given they're typically running around Jen Suski [00:20:27]: No one peak check-in time is. Celeste Berke [00:20:30]: There you go. There's a good one. Don't call during peak check-in time. Alright. Well, I've so appreciated chatting with you today. Thank you so much for being open about what it's like to be a mom in that journey to becoming a mother, the silent struggles, and how you're open to sharing with other women about about just unconventional or untalked about ways that we arrive at this place called motherhood. And also your transition from property to tech, what that looks like, and then how to hold your team accountable, but are there as a support system for them as you grow this together so that they can feel comfortable and confident in order to learn. I've appreciated getting to know you. Jen Suski [00:21:17]: Yeah. Thank you for having me on here.   About the host: Celeste, a self-proclaimed “Sales Growth Strategist” is a natural collaborator and partner to executives who easily pinpoint gaps in strategy and creates road maps to implement plans and achieve targets. Passionate about creating cross-functional collaboration, team development, and delivering results across top-performing teams.  Celeste has over twenty-one (21) years of experience within the non-profit and for-profit arenas; holding both a B.S. and M.S. degree.  In her last corporate role, Celeste held the position of Regional Director of Sales and Marketing for a privately held hospitality management company overseeing 19 properties, a sales team of 50+, and $105M in annual sales. Her accolades include the Director of Sales of the Year award, 2x Manager of the Year, and being named 40 under 40 for the Triad Business Journal. Celeste also holds a certified sales designation from Marriot International and in 2023 was named one of the Top 15 LinkedIn Experts in Denver by Influence + Digest. In early 2020, Celeste branched out on her own to scale a female-owned consulting and training business. Celeste holds the designation of Certified Gap Selling Training Partner with A Sales Growth Company and the Gap Selling Methodology. Celeste resides in Colorado with her husband and daughter.  

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. It is Celeste here on The Sales Edge Podcast. I'm excited to talk with Nick Bonn. He's about to launch his own podcast. We met on LinkedIn. Thank you so much for being a guest today. Tell us a little bit about your current seat, and then we'll dive into this, sales podcast that you were launching. Nick Bontrager [00:00:20]: Thanks, Celeste. So pumped to be on. Thanks for having me on. Account executive at Drata. So we do security compliance for Startups and mid market large companies. So started my journey 5 years ago as an SDR in the multifactor authentication space and Worked my way up to AEs. Celeste Berke [00:00:37]: A lot of times when I'm talking to those who are in a sales leadership role, we forget that the majority of our team and, like, the meat of the people who are helping us get to where we need to be really start in this SDRAE space, and they're usually the ones who are not only customer facing, but they're hearing what's going on, like boots on the ground, What is changing, how the customer journey is changing, and how ticked off buyers are that most Sellers are coming from a product approach. You're in an interesting space in that multi Factor authentication ticks people off. Don't get me wrong. Salesforce, every time I log in, I gotta go to another, but it is there to help us. So I'm curious how because you're you're now about to advise some SDRs and also you've come from that seat. How do you move away from talking about products, especially for new sales reps within an org when it's like what we want to do because it's for SafeSpot and what we know. Nick Bontrager [00:01:45]: Great question. I don't know if I'm a glutton for punishment selling things that people just don't wanna talk about. Right? It's People ask, what do you do? I'm in sales. What do you sell? Multi factor authentication or security compliance. I'm a nerd like that, but There's a real need for it. SDRs do focus a lot on product. And I think, in a lot of situations, companies push product knowledge so much on their SDRs that that's what they focus on, and they're brand new in their selling careers. Right? So they don't know any better. Nick Bontrager [00:02:13]: They're going through a bunch of enablement videos. And don't get me wrong. You you should know your product. But start with the buyer and start with the pains that they have. And as an SDR, a really good way that I did that was talk to other account executives, not other SDRs that were going through the same types of training. Like, get Outside of that organization or find the SDRs that that are buyer centric and that that know those problems. That's definitely something I Think that a lot of SDRs that are getting promoted right now, they're focusing on the pains versus I can talk about this feature with you on this 32nd cold Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:02:47]: It's interesting because there's there's obviously a lot on LinkedIn right now in the SDR space. Companies who are hiring SDRs that seems to be the most open position within a company. It's really stemming from this place where economic times have changed. The big well has dried up. You can only be new and fancy for so long with people flocking to you about your product, and now you really have to build a case for change. And a lot of that is now coming down to SDRs going outbound. Not even SDRs, AEs as well, going outbound in this shift of 80, 90%. I talked to a company the other day. Celeste Berke [00:03:27]: A 100% inbound, and I'm, like, thinking to myself, your time is coming. Nick Bontrager [00:03:31]: Only a matter of time. Celeste Berke [00:03:33]: This focus on you call it pains. I like to call it problems. I have a big bruise on my shoulder right here. I don't want my husband coming up and poking that. I know I have a bruise. It's not life Threatening, so not gonna worry about it. How Like, the SDRs that you work with, how are you advising them when they do go down that technical path? How are you calling that out so that they can change that behavior and feel more comfortable talking about problems and more elevated business conversations when they're so new in their career. Nick Bontrager [00:04:10]: Yeah. I think that's a good question. And really, it in our industry, what we sell, just to I won't go too far into the weeds But basically, the main pain or problem that folks face is as they move up market, they start to have conversations with enterprise companies. And these enterprise companies are asking them, are you SOC 2 compliant? Are you ISO 27,001 compliant? What are you doing to keep my data secure? How do I trust you? That's the main thing. Right? He's building that trust. And we can talk about automation with Drata in all these different features. But at the end of the day, the SDRs that are really crushing it and doing well, they're the ones that actually understand that, okay. This is a revenue opportunity for our customers and also our buyers to unlock different markets, to move To larger deals because that's that's really the value of it. Nick Bontrager [00:05:04]: And I think our our enablement team's doing a pretty good job of pushing that Problem centric approach. And definitely seen a shift in the last couple of years have been inbound. It's been kind of the rosy Sunny days in SaaS, and now it's it's definitely harder. Money's dried up. Money's more expensive now with interest rates. And And, really, there's a a stronger shift towards outbound. So our team has started to lead with that problem messaging as opposed to the feature messaging, which is definitely The big thing on LinkedIn right now, or at least it was a couple weeks ago, was so out for 2024. Oh, so in for 2024. Nick Bontrager [00:05:41]: And so the The feature pushing is is so out. Celeste Berke [00:05:46]: So out. You're right. We're not that far into 2024. It's still still out, and I would assume with everything that's happening with email, it'll be even further out if you go that route. And it's interesting because you're in this space. So in gap selling, We when we do our training, we have a slide that's specific to what you all are facing, which is kind of just like risk analysis. So a lot of times in, like, cybersecurity, any type of compliant, you're not dealing with something that may have happened. A risk that it could happen. Celeste Berke [00:06:18]: Whereas a lot of other buyers are experiencing something in their current state. And it's similar to my dad's a physician. He has malpractice insurance. Well, what happens should you get hit with a malpractice claim. You have to play that out, and it's very rare that you would experience that. I think my dad 45 years in the business, maybe 1 malpractice his claim and his whole career with someone who that worked for him, but on his malpractice. But he buys that insurance because If you get hit with a claim and you do not have that insurance, like, the risk does not outweigh that reward or vice versa. The people that you're selling to probably don't even understand it. Celeste Berke [00:06:57]: Many of them know we have to do this, but we don't know why or, like, what it is. It's a different language. So really educating them on if this isn't happening now, This is what could happen. If it's happened, how many times does it happen, and then what are those impacts to the organization? I was on a call this morning, and this is where the team was missing. They could get the technical problems, which is where many sellers live. We all love our products. Business problems? Okay. Maybe turnover, churn, like, things that you can't fix like this. Celeste Berke [00:07:35]: The impacts is where they were having a really hard time with, and I would assume for some younger BDRs, maybe even some VP's of sales CROs. That's what we miss is what is the impact to the organization? That's where the motivation to buy or changes. It lives within those impacts. We can't clearly define those. Alright. So I went off on a tangent there. You, 5 years in now, Seen a lot of stuff. Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:08:01]: Obviously, problems over product and features. You told me prior to this You were starting a podcast. Tell us about that. Where did this arise from? What is the concept? Nick Bontrager [00:08:15]: Yeah. So it arose out of a little bit of extra time on my hands during maternity leave. Good time. I'm back this week. But, essentially, I asked myself over paternity leave. Okay. What what am I building for for myself, for my wife, for my son that is outside of, you know, Strata in the career and, and all of that. And it really came down to, okay, I've been posting on LinkedIn for a while. Nick Bontrager [00:08:40]: I enjoy the interaction. Enjoy the community. What if I go all in on that? What if I start to build this brand? And then that brought me to the question, okay, what can I actually teach on? What can I teach people? And I have been in SDR. I was in SDR for 2 years and got promoted out of that role into an account executive selling role. And so that is what I wanna help folks with is the new sellers, the young sellers, both in their SDR roles and the new AEs. I wanna help them Take their next step, but specifically those SDRs who are looking to get promoted. And so here shortly, I'll be recording the 1st episode of the Promotable SDR podcast. So it'll only feature guests that have been promoted from an SDR role up and out within the last couple of years because I wanna keep it recent. Celeste Berke [00:09:27]: This is a great niche sadly for both you and myself because what is happening or what I'm seeing in conversations with individual contributors as well as sales leadership is we don't have any training within the company. Everybody's able to do their own thing, and what we find is that reps are either leaving, they get complacent, you start seeing quota slip, Maybe there's negative surveys around culture. Yep. There's a lot of chatter online or on he's like dark webby type of communities where people are fed up with the lack of, I can't show up and throw up at my job. Like, I need tools, resources, training in order to get me to where I want to go. And if it's not being offered here, I'm gonna look elsewhere. What would you say to companies that aren't offering Any type of training methodology plan. What is their risk? Tell us about their risk. Nick Bontrager [00:10:36]: Yeah. The risk. I think you hit the nail on the head, right, is the risk is attrition. People leaving, I know that I'm not happy if I'm not growing, And I have a clear line of sight of where I'm going personally, and I think it's a massive opportunity To attract talent with a road map. I'm a very road map oriented person. When I joined Duo Security back in the day, that was my 1st SDR role, There is a well defined culture of promotion internally to the selling role to the full AE role. So much so that there were really cool traditions back when we went to these crazy things called offices, that they would hang up a jersey Of the SDR who got promoted from an SDR to an AE role, it would have the the year that they were promoted in their last name. And so every SDR that came into that, you know, selling area for SDRs would see those jerseys. Nick Bontrager [00:11:32]: And it's like, that is the kind of culture that you wanna instill Because these are folks that if you're hiring the right people, they're uber motivated to make moves in the organization, To learn the product, to learn the pains, and honestly, can be some of your best sellers. So that's why I'm really excited about the podcast, because I'm gonna get to talk to those, Exactly. Those folks. And a lot of a lot of people have moved out of those roles and are doing amazing things. Celeste Berke [00:11:58]: And and they learn a lot. So let me ask you. Mhmm. In that company, your 1st company where there was a lot of internal promotion, celebration around that Mhmm. You know, emphasis sounds like on that training and development piece. Will or skill? A new SDR comes in. Which one is going to have them on that trajectory do you believe? That's, like, obviously, self diagnosing. I mean, we don't know. Celeste Berke [00:12:29]: But, like, will or skill? Nick Bontrager [00:12:33]: Yeah. I mean, It's gonna be Will that can turn into skill, I think, is really how that would roll. Sure you have some people that come in and are I'm not personally one of those, but, like, those that are coming in extroverted, they're super comfortable talking to strangers. I wasn't that way when I was in this role, in the SDR role to start. So for me, it was Will that turned into skill eventually over rep tons of repetition and training and Call shadowing and picking the brains of the top performers around me to get to the level of where I wanted to go. So definitely, I'll I'll answer the question kinda Not one or the other, but it's will that can be the skill. Celeste Berke [00:13:13]: I trained a lot of people in my life and usually could after a while, after I got into sales leadership and had some time under my belt, I would much rather take someone that had the will than the skill. I think it's easier to teach skill. It's much harder to teach will. So I'm there with you, but I I do believe we're at this place of companies that are seeing Some of these indicators, right, churn, low win rates, or decline, and are just pumping more into the top of the funnel versus peeling back the onion layers and saying, do we have a people problem? Do we have a process problem? Do we as you mentioned, do we have a culture problem? I saw someone post today on LinkedIn. She talks a lot about, like, content and brand building, and she was saying, like, bro, Nobody cares about all the internal stuff going on with their organization. Right? You use that for Slack channels. If you are an organization where The CEO put something out, and then everybody's regurgitating it. This isn't developing people. Celeste Berke [00:14:14]: They're it's not giving them a voice or a brand, and we're seeing that, and I'm assuming a direct correlation between lower employee satisfaction, probably higher turnover, and I do believe that comes, like you said, from that road map from day 1, working with individuals 1 on 1 on this is what the opportunity looks like, This is the development plan to get here. Like, let's help cocreate this. How do we get that? And what happens is That is a very 1 on 1 personalization based on their will and their skill versus what I've been hearing from larger corporations, from individual contributors. My manager doesn't have time. I never talk to them. We don't have a 1 on 1. There's no oversight. So I I do think that we're we're in for some rough waters here. Celeste Berke [00:15:05]: So that aside. Alright. So you went from s t r a e. Tell me what if you're talking to your former self and you're putting on my Superman costume, this is the cape I'm wearing. What is your sales edge? What makes you unique? Nick Bontrager [00:15:26]: Yeah. So that's in been in development for the last 5 years. And I think one of the main things there's there's 2 main things, And they kinda they play well together, which the first is to not be overly focused on process when you're coming into Talk with a buyer. So it's really good to have a background and a process, but you're talking to a person at the end of the day. It's a relationship. It's something where You are figuring out where they're at in their journey, and then you're joining alongside them. And then that second side is being extremely focused on being buyer centric. So an example of something that I just started doing is in my follow-up emails after demos, tying those follow ups Specifically to one of the criteria that they've mentioned on the call. Nick Bontrager [00:16:15]: And I call that out when I when I send the message. Like, look. All my follow ups Or most, at least, of my follow ups are going to tie directly back to one of your buying buying criteria so that this is actually a useful Piece for you to actually read. And so being buyer centric and then people over process, but still having a process, Would say I'd say those are my my 2 edges. Celeste Berke [00:16:38]: What I hear you saying is really listening to your buyer, listening for clues that, like, those bread crumbs, something that's It's important to them, something that may be going on in their environment that would change the direction of where you wanted to go, whether that's timing, something came up, something that they told you personally, and really making sure that they feel heard is what I hear, and I love that because when when we show up with our buyers and do not attach to the outcome, and and this took me, like, 30 years to learn, maybe more. I still do it sometimes. Like, we're salespeople. We're we're salespeople. Like, those whatever they are. I I almost called them memes, but they're not. They're a little I don't know. I'm older. Celeste Berke [00:17:25]: A video on the Instagram. A reel. A reel. That's what it's called. Mhmm. Nick Bontrager [00:17:30]: There you go. We got there. Celeste Berke [00:17:33]: We tend to want to attach ourselves to the outcome. And what does this commission mean? And what does this mean to my quota? And we Constantly have to bring ourselves back. The buyer doesn't care about any of that. Right? They care about themselves. So how do we become more empathetic to what they're going through in their current state? And listen without attaching to an outcome. So it sounds like you're showing up authentically listening, detaching from an outcome, but then really rooting them back into something that they said so they can help draw that same conclusion that you did that they maybe didn't put 2 and 2 together. That Clearly has been learned from time in the seat. It's not something that the BDR who started out, you would have known. Celeste Berke [00:18:14]: You probably would have fit to your product. Nick Bontrager [00:18:16]: Oh, no. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:18:18]: Alright. So I'm I'm loving that, this buyer centricity. I we keep hearing this phrase coming out. I think Keenan, Who Wrote App Selling is working on a 2nd book eventually that really comes from the buyer's standpoint, so it'll be interesting when it comes out. They've done a huge survey. I would assume it will say people prefer a rep free environment. Nothing new that we've heard, but I'm interested to see what those statistics are as it relates to buyer centricity versus taking a seller's approach, which most of us still do from time to time. I've also heard of a couple organizations here recently that will flat out say that they use BANT as a qualification method, which Gets back to that, like, checklist. Celeste Berke [00:19:01]: Answer questions that are self serving to me so I can move you through my buying process. Also icky. Nick Bontrager [00:19:09]: Buyers are tired of that. Right? Nobody wants to be walked through a self centered checklist that is clearly, you know, just for my benefit as a seller to understand. A much better way to position that is towards wherever you wanna put it into the call. You can say things to set expectations appropriately on my side or just be completely upfront about, I just need to know this. This is this is a selfish question. You earn the right to ask those questions after you've walked through the journey, and you've attached yourself not to your own outcome, But to the buyer's outcome, and then your outcome follows that. If it doesn't, your outcome isn't gonna be that great. Celeste Berke [00:19:48]: A bell. I would be ringing it here, and that is tough to show up present and listen. And they're just also difficult if you're working in an environment where there is no methodology, You're given a checklist. Right? You don't have anybody to model that behavior after. Those companies are doing themselves a disservice because our buyers are screaming, We don't want this. Please stop. So over these past 5 years and your progression to now where you're going to be launching your own podcast, Tons of sales, let's say, advice being thrown at us. You are on LinkedIn quite often. Celeste Berke [00:20:28]: I am too. I definitely get LinkedIn fatigue. So much comes at you with, like, do this. Don't do that. Do this. Today, we're doing this. Now don't do this. Yep. Celeste Berke [00:20:37]: It's hard to know which way to navigate. What is some really poor advice you've been given over the years that you would like to say, Please stop, or we have to bust this myth. This isn't working. Nick Bontrager [00:20:51]: I wanna go to the filter thing real quick, which is, yes, LinkedIn fatigue is so real, and I've had to, like, filter through as, like, these are the people that I wanna listen to because I know I've applied what they've done and it's worked, or also I can tell, like, they've spent time in the actual roles. And that's very important to be very stringent about maintaining that LinkedIn diet Celeste Berke [00:21:13]: and what comes with the feed Nick Bontrager [00:21:14]: because otherwise Celeste Berke [00:21:15]: it's just I like that. Nick Bontrager [00:21:16]: Yeah. You gotta be careful with what you're putting in with the LinkedIn Diet. But to answer your question, so I think one of the things it's it's It's good advice, but it can be taken too far. Is the up up front contract that folks put down on calls. So it's good to have an upfront contract with with buyers when you're on a on a call with them just to let them know what's going on. But it's being delivered, and it must be This long, and it must be rigid. And I think a lot of times when folks rush through the I'm talking to a person and they just go for that contract that they engage the buyer in that track of, okay, sales call. Here we go. Nick Bontrager [00:21:57]: I'm going through this as opposed to the new way, which is Providing an agenda, but also saying, okay. This is what I assume you're coming to us because this is what buyers come to us all the time for. Injecting some of that experience with other clients into that agenda and tying it back to The actual buyer as opposed to walking them through your checklist of what you want to accomplish in the call. So it's good to have an upfront contract, but, again, People over process don't it's it's important how it's delivered. Celeste Berke [00:22:29]: For anybody listening who's, like, a VP of sales, CRO, sales leader, first time in tech, Like, would probably be like, what the heck did he just say? Upfront contract. And this is something that I've actually learned through my time. So I'm a certified gap selling training partner, which means I'm like a trainer by nature. I've been in sales marketing my whole life. Training and selling, gap selling at the same time are 2 different things or 2 different skill sets. So I'm right there with you in the CLC Making flubs, asking a self diagnosing question, taking it back. You know? Oh, I went down the rabbit hole. Ask too many probing questions because it's an ever evolving thing. Celeste Berke [00:23:09]: We're honing our sales skills. What if someone is like, I don't what do what do they mean upfront contract? My team doesn't see that. Give us an example of a poor upfront contract. Nick Bontrager [00:23:21]: Yeah. Thanks, Les, for joining the call today. Here's the agenda. You know, typically, we spend a couple minutes going through, You know, some questions that I have for you. I'll jump into the demo, give you an overview, and then we can establish next steps after that. It It it even how I said that. Right? I've said it before. Right? And it's something that reps get in a very monotone way of delivering, and it just becomes You're sitting in your seat in an airplane, and they're starting to give you the oxygen mask. Nick Bontrager [00:23:47]: It's like engage, sales call mode. Right? As opposed to Celeste, thanks for taking the call. Typically, folks join calls with me for x reason or y reason. I really wanna dig in because I think based on your company, it might be the why reasons. I have a hypothesis behind that I'd love to share with you. Adding that tweak to show, 1, you've done your research. You actually care about the buyer, and you're not just trying to, walk them through your steps. Because they have their own steps and Celeste Berke [00:24:17]: That subtle shift that you have of being seller cent completely seller centric to that subtle shift in buyer centricity. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think that analogy they used from the airplane mode is, like, spot on. How many times do we do that? We're like, I've heard this before. I'm checking out versus really including them in that conversation. I love how you said that hypothesis as well. We love to use hypothesis hypothesis. Celeste Berke [00:24:45]: We do that in a lot of Nick Bontrager [00:24:45]: my Celeste Berke [00:24:46]: notes Nick Bontrager [00:24:46]: I've nailed it. Celeste Berke [00:24:47]: Where after a call, And that's something else people people often are like, well, hurry up and get me to the demo or get me to the pricing. When When you haven't uncovered all the information, you don't even know you can help them. So, typically, for me, it's at least 2 discovery calls, sometimes 3, sometimes 4. But I'd love to put in my notes, like, what information did I not capture? What am I really curious about? What hypothesis Can I draw from the information they gave me? What could be going on within the organization? I wanna dive deeper into that. So I love how you frame that by hypothesis. Alright. So we're coming up on time. I like to keep these, like, snackable. Celeste Berke [00:25:28]: So what's what's next for you? This podcast, who would you love to have on? Listeners, tell us about that so we can get some listeners lined up for you or Some guests I have for you. Nick Bontrager [00:25:45]: So what's next? So I'm recording a couple of episodes. I wanna get 3 or 4 recorded before I actually Publish. It's out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts right now. It just has a trailer. But if you are interested, you can go follow the podcast when episodes drop and just notify get notified when they're available. I'm looking for SDRs, former SDRs who've been promoted Into AE roles, into account management roles. Maybe it was 3 or 4 years ago, and you have Hit the fast track, and you're in a VP role or some sort of sales leadership role. I wanna talk to those folks. Nick Bontrager [00:26:21]: So that's that's really who I wanna talk to. And, yeah, it should Be out here in mid to late February if I can, really line up those guests. I got the first 3 lined up, so really really pumped about it. But, yeah, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. If you're interested in being a guest, you can shoot me a Celeste Berke [00:26:39]: DM on LinkedIn. That's something that you're working on, like, passion project, really bridging the gap. No pun intended. People who are in SERC want to get promoted, maybe are lacking tools, resources, training, mentorship. I'm I'm gonna throw a zinger at you that I sound like like my dad talking. I'm gonna throw a zinger at you that I didn't prepare you for From a professional standpoint, aside from the podcast, what is something you're working on this year in your role. Nick Bontrager [00:27:14]: I'm working on a lot of things, but this is the 1st year that I'm actually gonna build out my own Sales process. So I've been using Notion for a lot of this organization of different things I'm doing on LinkedIn, podcast at Drata, and And I'm building out my own sales playbook. So coming from top reps at Drata, top reps that I've worked with in the past and putting this together and really Applying it to my role at Drata with the ultimate goal of getting to that president's club at the end of the year in January. That's something that I'm working on in my role. It's kind of a a bigger, less tactical thing, but it's gonna be Filled with, a bunch of tactical stuff. So maybe, eventually, we'll make that available in some format, but that's what I'm working on Right. Celeste Berke [00:27:57]: Lesson Westworld Nick Bontrager [00:27:59]: in the Celeste Berke [00:27:59]: field, best practices, working on Yep. Building out your own brand, what that looks like, how that applies to the sales role. So I love it. Nick Bontrager [00:28:10]: I've been promoted from SDR to AE and been a top performer as an AE, so I know that Early realm really well. But now it's just a matter of, okay, let's let's perfect the deal management. Let's perfect to getting into those larger deals and managing those cycles. And so, Yeah. Maybe a book. I'm I'm working on an SDR promotion frameworks ebook right now too. So that's also a evenings and weekends project. So there's all sorts of info on that on my LinkedIn page too Awesome. Nick Bontrager [00:28:39]: Profile. Celeste Berke [00:28:40]: Well, it's been a pleasure. I know as a as a new parent, Your 1st week back, I appreciate you sharing some insights on what it's like to switch from seller centricity to being buyer centric. Also, that there is hope for those outside of an organization that don't provide any training to have individuals such as yourself to look up to, to ask questions to, to follow along with, so we're excited for that launch. And thank you for spending your afternoon with us here. I will share all of the links to your Spotify. I'll grab that so listeners can find you and follow along in that journey as it's going to be, I'm sure, riveting, tales from the SDRC and how to get promoted. I'm sure you'll have some doozies in there as well, like, What to do and what not to do. So appreciate your insights. Celeste Berke [00:29:28]: Yeah. This is what happens when you're, like, a gen y, gen x. You're on the cusp, but we have no clue what the teens are talking about these days, but also still use some of your parents' language that most people don't know either, zinger being one of those words. Nick Bontrager [00:29:44]: I might I might add that to the, yeah, to the frameworks just like little callouts. Celeste Berke [00:29:48]: Zinger. Nick Bontrager [00:29:49]: Zinger callouts. If you see that, you you inspired it. Celeste Berke [00:29:53]: Cool. Thanks. I got a lot of other random useless knowledge throughout my years, but it's been such a pleasure. Thanks for staying with us here.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. It's Celeste on the Sales Edge Podcast. I'm joined by Peter Wheeler. We were chatting off air, and Peter said, hit that record button. We're talking about some juicy stuff as it relates to being an entrepreneur, selling your tech stack, Having mental breakdown. Peter Wheeler [00:00:17]: Oh, yeah. Mental breakdowns are part of the job. Celeste Berke [00:00:19]: Yeah. Definitely. It's typically I ask Individual's 2 questions, and we flow in and out of that. What's your sales edge? But I think out of all of my guests, you're about to drop some value. So, Peter, introduce yourself. Little bit about your background, what you're working on. Peter Wheeler [00:00:42]: Well, I can talk about what I've worked on. That might be the easiest thing because I I Based on what you and I were talking about, that's that's gonna be the more fun conversation, especially for if we're talking to salespeople and we're talking to entrepreneurial salespeople And we're talking to entrepreneurs or founders or people that aren't traditionally salespeople that need that element. I think that's gonna be a lot more fun. So I am a serial entrepreneur, for lack of a better term. My first business, I founded in 1998, drop shipping car stereo. I was Oh. In high school, I think I was old enough to drive. I think I had my license. Peter Wheeler [00:01:18]: I think I had my credit card. Celeste Berke [00:01:19]: Because I graduated 97. And I do remember driving 30 miles to get a bomb car stereo in my Honda Accord. Peter Wheeler [00:01:30]: There you go. So I can joke that I was a .comer. I really wasn't, but It was interesting having ecom, having drop shipping that that early. I seem to always be ahead of the curve, and it always Seems to bite me in the butt. Anyway, did that. Got an automotive for a very long time. Got into philately Celeste Berke [00:01:53]: I'm sorry. Peter Wheeler [00:01:53]: Which is stamp collection. Celeste Berke [00:01:55]: I Could you repeat that one more time? Peter Wheeler [00:02:00]: So being one of those jack of all trades, Master of none, but often better than a master of 1 style scenarios. In high school, I had 2 to 3 full time jobs. I had the side thing that I was doing for myself. I went and, applied for a role at a place called Regency. It was right around the corner from my high school, And it was a Philatelic auction house. So we're talking a place that would auction postage stamps to stamp collectors, like, $3,000,000 worth a year. By the time I left, we were doing 3,000,000 a quarter, which is pretty cool. And when they hired me, they didn't realize I was a high schooler until I said I can't start till 3:30. Peter Wheeler [00:02:40]: They actually they put a team under me. You wanna talk about super weird as being, like, not old enough to vote, But old enough to have that kind of responsibility. Weird world. At the same time, I was training to be a developer And doing developer work in continuing medical education and the bankers training. Celeste Berke [00:03:02]: Okay. Peter Wheeler [00:03:02]: So writing in, Flash and action script and visual basic. And thanks to Adobe 2021, I'm officially retired as a developer, so I don't even have to Think about that channel anymore other than I like doing dev rel work, but that was wild. Same time, we're talking overlap. Ended up offloading my car stereo stuff to another car stereo shop, stuck around there. It was one of those things that I pop in and I'd sell on the floor because I was bored or I needed extra Cash did that quite often, and then you were noticing my license plate wall. Celeste Berke [00:03:35]: Plus you're right next to a fireplace. It looks like you could Have that going. Peter Wheeler [00:03:39]: I am next to a fireplace. Yeah. This this whole room's built out of Legos except for the fireplace wall. Giant Everblocks that is placed called it's called Everblock, And they're in Minnesota. American made giant LEGOs to make rooms or pop up displays for trade shows and events. So love of cars, big time love of cars, was collecting them, and that was part of the reason I was working full time so much Across so many places and ended up with the hated the developer work, left that role. They actually hated the company. And then the stamp place, They shipped me out to Los Angeles, Beverly Hills specifically, the ripe old age of 18 on my summer break senior year, To do an m and a with a place called Superior Collectibles. Peter Wheeler [00:04:26]: We were expanding into sports collectibles in addition to the philately. So little old me got to live out of a hotel in Beverly Hills to do this acquisition, and it was hell on earth. So I left there as well. Was not my last m and a, but it was certainly my most unpleasant, and I walked away with a lot of great knowledge from it. Anyway, started doing, some work with the shop that I was getting my cars repaired at and purchasing from, and they're like, hey. You know the Internets? Why don't you do why don't you become our eBay salesperson? You know how to write. You know how to do graphic design. You have all this stuff from before. Peter Wheeler [00:05:05]: To Ebay sales. Okay. Cool. Came on, started doing that, walked in the park, started writing service, started doing all this kind of stuff, and eventually became the GM of the Store. Opened 2 more stores and then was legally able to drink. Yeah. Yeah. So took it from a $3,000,000 a year to, 1 repair store, 2 sales stores at 15,000,000 a year. Peter Wheeler [00:05:30]: And they shuffled In the mid 2000, and now it's just 2 repair stores. And we always knew that that's where the real money is. Sales is terrible, especially car sales. Now that's another episode. So there. That's why my dealer plate's there. We're gonna we're just going through the stack real quick. Celeste Berke [00:05:46]: No pun intended with the tech stack. Yeah. Mhmm. Peter Wheeler [00:05:50]: There we go. So I left there, went to work for BMW, kind of. It was an indirect placement for launching their after sales and lifestyle in the region that I live in Saint Louis basically building boutiques inside car dealerships and selling the wheel wax and the hats and golf bags and all those things as well as performance parts, so I got to stay in my happy category. The majority of it was teaching salespeople how to sell Trash and trinkets without busting the deal because we all know once something gets into finance, you're gonna lose it. The joke that we have in the car industry is Some people can afford the car. Most people can only afford the payment, and so you have to keep in alignment with how the payment works. That went awesome. I got to build cars. Peter Wheeler [00:06:36]: I got to be a YouTube influencer. I got checks from YouTube. We're talking 2007, 2008, And left that. Did some big work for Dolby. It's where Xcede comes from over there. Start I picked up the moniker XcedeR as as well as Bespoke Gorilla. That's where Bespoke is there, doing work for agencies that sold jobs that they didn't know how to fulfill. Picked up some really cool clients of my own, Miller Kors. Peter Wheeler [00:07:02]: I continued with BMW. I continued with MINI Cooper. For Miller, I gave birth to a beer. 2012. Invented a dinner series in for an off premise product, Which means you can only buy it at liquor stores or gas stations bringing it into restaurants. And if you if you know Blue Moon, there's literally a Blue Moon tap handle everywhere. Every restaurant has a Blue Moon Tap Handle. That's what they're famous for. Peter Wheeler [00:07:31]: And it was innovative for two reasons. Number 1, Tom Schlafly makes a joke about his business, but I was trying to start a religion in Mecca. St. Louis was the home base of this campaign, which is where AB was based, so that was the 1st uphill battle. 2nd uphill battle was dinner series. Like, these were brand new. So I did a prefix thing, 3 courses, $30. Like, it's normal now to hear that kinda And it's a beer pairing, so I did a beer pairing. Peter Wheeler [00:07:57]: The restaurant got a wild card dish. They could do whatever they want, and the big differentiator, the thing that made it work, Was I had a course where it was mandatory to use the beer as an ingredient, and the chefs loved it. And they'd come out and talk about it, and they brag about the work that they're doing. The beer at the time was called Blue Moon Farmhouse Ready. That's a mouthful. It was a mouthful of a beer. It's now called Short Straw. There's nothing more cool than being leading on a project that brings something to life. Peter Wheeler [00:08:25]: I'm a father of 2 kids now, and I'm just as proud of my beer as I am of them. Anyway, launched a platform called Eat Local because I really liked working with those restaurants, that to a large, RDS, restaurant delivery service. In that, I had a platform called Dell Assist, which was where I managed the people ops dispatch and basically the whole back office for competitors of mine around the country, Which also made m and a easy because I can understand markets, I can understand where to open. Granted, I had tons of of noncompetes, but the United States is pretty dang big. And it was also just offset payroll. So a lot of things on entrepreneurship, and you and I were talking about this before the show. It's like, how much can I offload To focus on what's important, how much can I subsidize somewhere else to make it worth it? So to provide great customer care, I needed a Huge headcount, like 48 people doing our 1st year, we did $99 in business. And, Like, how do you balance that out? Well, debt is one of them. Peter Wheeler [00:09:32]: Subsidizing with your agency is another one of them. Thankfully, I had the cash to do that. But bringing on these customers, it became a profitable entity. I got paid to have staff. How cool is that? So, anyway, ended up we ran 35 markets across 28 businesses at that time. I opened 7 more territories. 2 of them were acquisitions. How old was I I then? 30. Peter Wheeler [00:09:58]: I finally turned 30. Hospitalized myself as an entrepreneur, so this is kinda where we were getting into in our conversation. Founder led sales. I had sold a 1,000 accounts for this business. 1,000 accounts in 2 years. Brought it to 2,000,000 ARR and put myself in the hospital. Don't do that. Don't do that. Peter Wheeler [00:10:19]: I don't give advice Often, but I'm telling my story, and my advice is don't don't do something that puts that hospitalizes you. Celeste Berke [00:10:25]: When I I if I can interject here, I think, you know, it's Yeah. It's Not just the founders. It's not entrepreneurs. We see a lot of salespeople, any level in the organization, and who were burnout, who quit with nothing else lined up. Like, it there's only so much output you can have in the pressure of especially meeting numbers and growth year over year. It's a lot for individuals, especially if you're not Set up to have outlets, it's a tough lesson, especially for younger individuals who are in sales of that hustle bro culture of work, work, work, work, work. And like you said, you end up it can end up taking a serious toll on not only your mental health, but your physical health as well. Peter Wheeler [00:11:16]: Fast, easy, cheap money. Coming from the car industry and having p you know, having to go to 7 AM Saturday sales meetings where you just watch Boiler Rim or the the the Blake part of the Glengarry Glen Ross movie. It's not in the play nor the book. It's just in the movie. Anyway, yeah, it's the bro culture. That's just sales in general. It's fast money. No barrier to entry, And it's tough. Peter Wheeler [00:11:40]: It's real tough. And, well, since this is a profanity show just like mine, we'll get in the fucking biggest problem that comes from That in just a second. So engage with type 2. Celeste Berke [00:11:50]: Lived a full life by age 30. Peter Wheeler [00:11:54]: Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. We're not even talking about, like, nationally published works or any or anything like that. I'm trying to speed through this because you you've locked half an hour, and My recording's usually are an hour and a half for a 60 minute show. Anyway, we're gonna keep going. That sucker fell apart. Market influence is the term that that I got taught about this. Peter Wheeler [00:12:16]: We were what was called a last mile service, which meant we did the the tail And all the work. And I'm still a big believer in that. If you can't do end to end, then you shouldn't really be doing it at all. And with that, we had a lot of Organizations that we were a vendor for. You think like Grubhub, Yelp E24, Easycater. There were a lot of them Out there, we were in a pretty complicated and heavy space. There were a lot of players in the space, and what I went through It was pretty simple. They decided to take on end to end, and they didn't need me anymore, and they needed Their own salespeople in there and entrepreneurs especially, especially if you're self funded or trying to bootstrap or not chasing that VC money, You'll learn the lesson a big bank takes little bank. Peter Wheeler [00:13:11]: And and by that, I mean, they were able to go into territories and say, oh, these guys charge you a commission. We'll make it 0 If you go exclusively with us, there's no way to compete with that. It doesn't matter customer service. Like, you you always wanna make that argument. Like, where's the additional values? Customer service, this, this, this, this, and this. You can't be same thing you're doing now, but free. Like, that's hard. That's hard. Peter Wheeler [00:13:35]: And we ended up just getting shaved and shaved and shaved on that. Now granted the personal relationships and those kind of things and Loyalty and everything else kept momentum, but then credit card fraud kicked in. And I don't ever wanna be in another consumer, Exclusively consumer business? Because those charge backs are monster. Some somebody does a charge back on a $50 buy, let's say, about $40 worth of stuff and a $10 tip for the driver. You've already you got the 50 in. Driver gets their 10, so now you're down to 40. Let's say the restaurant has a 10 per percent commission, so you give them 36, you have $4 left over. Charge back comes in. Peter Wheeler [00:14:13]: It's a $50 penalty right off the bat. You're negative 46, and they take the full amount. So you're negative $96 on a $50 sale on a $4 Celeste Berke [00:14:21]: Right. Peter Wheeler [00:14:22]: Profit. Anyway, fiance of 5 years Celeste Berke [00:14:25]: husband deals with chargebacks on the daily, so that's a Never ending credit credit card fraud, disputes, issues, no chip and PIN. Yes. Chip and PIN. Just Peter Wheeler [00:14:39]: Some organizations are gonna get real smart and figure out a way to underwrite and ensure credit card transactions. That that would be pretty cool. Oh, also in that era. I was one of those people, and I have a PDF of the article. I can't seem to find it online anymore, but I was featured 2012 In the Saint Louis Post Dispatch, my business was one of the first ones in the region, possibly in the country, that accepted cryptocurrency for services in general. And it was it was kind of a slog because there weren't the kind of automations that they have now and, like, integrations that exist now. And I had drivers that wanna be paid exclusively in it. I really wonder where they're at Interesting. Peter Wheeler [00:15:21]: Now because when when I was getting it, it was about $3 a point. $3. And I unloaded a 125 of them, did this newspaper interview where I said I don't trust it. It's unstable. It's It's not good for a small business owner. We ran it 5 years later, it did something, but we're talking, what, $450? $375 worth of coins. I gotta settle on that forever. Anyway, hindsight, 2020, and he he met remorse. Peter Wheeler [00:15:50]: Fiance 5 years said, I'm not marrying a 10.99. I'm marrying a w two. I don't blame her. Hadn't been a w two in forever. Forgot what it tasted like, and actually, I enjoy the flavor, the older I get, especially. But with the company collapse, I started something called accomplish nothing. It's a double entendre. Like, for me, very accomplished. Peter Wheeler [00:16:10]: I have nothing to show for it, And I was a that was an accomplished nothing at the point. And so I buy these I buy these Vanity plates still aligned to the work that I'm doing at the time. Now that one has no wear and tear on it. You see the rest of these are faded or they're discolored. Anyway, So I get back into tech. It's been 20 years off ish, 2015 now, And getting to geospatial. Get hired on his place as a field marketer because that's where my joy was, experiential disrupts field, that kind of thing. And Ended up becoming the interim head of marketing there for about 2 years within my 1st 2 months. Peter Wheeler [00:16:55]: And it was a senior IC role for this startup, And they ended up getting acquired, which was kinda neat. But I had I was able to establish a name for myself that 8 product launches. 2 of them is professional services offerings and 2 of them is PLG offerings, which was really cool. And it was neat bringing that consumer Focus. It was interesting bringing to a data as a service and a software as a service platform In PLG. But one of the biggest things that that I was coming in there with was the ability as a salesperson To do marketing and to understand product. That's where I learned some of my biggest pet peeves in the space. We used to sell what was called the geospatial journey, And that was because engineering was usually fucking around with some project that was important to them. Peter Wheeler [00:17:44]: It had nothing to do with the road map. And the salesperson, of course, needed to get 100% of the contract value. So we would go into these rooms. Yeah. I was doing enablement. I was doing the trade show, but I was doing all this stuff. You go in the room, and they'd sell the journey. Yep. Peter Wheeler [00:17:59]: How many how have you had to sell the journey? You sell 80% of the product for a 100% of the price, and you make up this bullshit flow of, like, Customized to you. We flow together. Know knowing in the background that that's not happening because engineering's making whatever they want to make. I'm not attacking engineers. It just seems to be kind of a chronic thing. All the departments have some sort of chronic part problem, and that's why Product hates engineering, and marketing hates product, and sales hates marketing, and there's no alpha predator in any kind of business. But, Anyway oh, Apex Predator. It was great. Peter Wheeler [00:18:36]: Great organization. Great learning these things. Well We went to a farm company. Celeste Berke [00:18:39]: Interesting because I usually ask people and and You walked right into it. You know? What what makes them unique? What is their sales edge? And to me, it sounds like it's this unique crossroads of Understanding marketing and sales and being able to fit yourself into both of those roles, but then both See how it all can come together. And, you know, not many people are able to do that. But that 15 years, 20 years of putting in that foundation as an entrepreneur and pivoting and iterating It forced you into that. Peter Wheeler [00:19:17]: It's different when it's your money. Celeste Berke [00:19:21]: Totally. It's different. Totally. Right? I mean, I I remember being a w two employee, and some days you're like, oh, f. I don't wanna do anything today, so I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna do nothing. Peter Wheeler [00:19:31]: Well, that's one of my biggest Pet peeves with my peers in marketing is that marketing always says, well, we're not accountable to Sales. We're not accountable for conversions. Well, guess what? For the past 2 years at Okta, I was a quota carrying marketer, 10 quarters straight 10 quarters straight, a 100% attainment or better for logos and revenue on PLG and on enterprise. It's doable. We have to own it. We have to own it. This is why sales hates marketing because it's like, I filled the top of the funnel for you. Oh, great. Peter Wheeler [00:20:05]: Go. You don't understand the funnel's a meatballer. It's not actually a funnel, y'all, and there's no such Celeste Berke [00:20:10]: thing as a movement. Coming out. Peter Wheeler [00:20:14]: Oh my god. And that's why end to end is so important. And oh, yeah. Just stick your hand in it. Please, stick your hand in it. I dare you. The problem is and this gets into the abuse of the young, the abuse of the money hungry, the abuse of the people that that are aspiring. We start building these XDR teams, and it's not doing anyone any good. Peter Wheeler [00:20:40]: It's not. We we teach them these wild and wacky frameworks and not the soft skills to have the conversation properly. We don't Train them in how to sell. We train them in how to quiz. Yep. And a lot of times, it's very offensive. You had mentioned bant Bant. Well, that's an easy one. Peter Wheeler [00:21:00]: What's your title? Are you able to, like can you make this decision? Are you broke? How poor are you? Like, am I wasting my time having this conversation with you? You absolutely need what we've got. Like, the end the end, we always answer for ourselves, and we're always wrong. And then, like, are you gonna buy now? Are you gonna buy now? Are you gonna buy now? Like, Who teaches this kind of thing? And the more letters we add, the more insults we add to the question flow. And then people are like, oh, our customers are our partners. No. That's what happens when you sell them a journey. You make them your partner because they're carrying the burden. You treat your customer like a customer. Peter Wheeler [00:21:38]: With respect, you promise what you deliver, and you give them value. Period. Done. Anyway Celeste Berke [00:21:42]: Looks awesome. And it's kids. And it's interesting because I had a conversation with an individual contributor, huge I mean, I call it huge, org. 500 people on in sales, and we really dove into, hey. What's what's going on? What type of training did you receive? What's the enablement? What's the discovery look like, for you, and they were saying, I can't fill up 15 minutes of a discovery. Okay. How does discovery go for you? What questions are you asking? And there they go with the what's your title? When are you looking to hire? How many people do you have? And then they run out of questions, and then they're jumping right to the demo. We're not Tracking win rates. Celeste Berke [00:22:18]: It's it's all over the place, and it's every conversation that I'm having and yet to See companies doing it well, yet everybody's out there touting, oh, we're doing so well because it is that churn and burn. Right? I Works with another individual who's just at their wits end of all the company cares about is filling top of the funnel. They don't care about That customer journey or what happens, the conversations that we're having, it's just get him in, get him to demo, whatever. Repeat. Peter Wheeler [00:22:52]: That's that's why ABM getting back into style is interesting and neat to see. You're talking about churn and burn. We used to have something, and, I guess they still do. I just haven't been in the industry a while. The car industry, especially on sales, called working the list. Same kind of abuse. We'd hire these kids. You know, they they'd be coming from some sort of scam financial services Company. Peter Wheeler [00:23:15]: You know, they'd be some sort of MLM. And I'm not gonna name because I we don't need to deal with that kind of feedback from those organizations, but we all know who they They are. And they think they have it. They're looking at the fast money. They're looking at the great demo they can drive. They're looking at, like, this lifestyle that comes from it, not knowing how painful it is. And we'd work their list. So they'd come in, hey. Peter Wheeler [00:23:37]: You're not hitting quota. Hey. You're missing this. You're missing that. And that we're talking end to end sales. Like, when somebody shows up, They're yours. They're your up. Literally, that's what we call them, ups. Peter Wheeler [00:23:48]: It's not just the old men sitting on a bench, and they wander out when you're walking the lot, and they start Making you feel real intimidated. Every that's the obligation. That's what the role is with these kids. You know, you you threaten them. Literally threaten their their livelihood, what they're trying to pursue, the investment they've already made. So they'd bring their grandma in. My grandma would buy a car. Next week, you're not hitting quota. Peter Wheeler [00:24:11]: And they bring their best friend's cousin in. They bring all these peep they knew their list. We wouldn't train them. Wouldn't show them how to do it. Wouldn't Show them how to, we'd show them how to walk a deal, but we wouldn't show them how to, like, actually trade horses, burn gas, cross the curb, whatever Term we wanna use. And that those customers, once the person Failed out, became the book of business of the dealership, and it was phrased in such a way that it was that person's fault. So there was no animosity held towards the dealership. And that book of business didn't go to the new hires. Peter Wheeler [00:24:52]: We don't we don't ever give warm leads To new sales hires. No. Never done that. You find you find me in industry where that happens, I'll I'll get back into sales right away. Seriously. And you're laughing, but, like, when have you seen, somebody that's fresh be mentored, supervised, Get a warm lead from an existing customer on something simple like an expansion or a renewal. Like, why do we do These folks such a disservice to not teach them properly. And why do we do ourselves such a disservice? And it's greed. Peter Wheeler [00:25:26]: Okay. There we go. Celeste Berke [00:25:27]: Yeah. I mean, that also, I think, comes from this place of, you know, this is this is America, and you have to earn it. And, like, we've put in the time, and you need to Earn your stripes and, you know, get time in the seat and really, like, hear those noes and, like, it builds grit or calluses that makes you, you know, resentful, probably. Peter Wheeler [00:25:53]: Okay. So why are the people that buy computers based on how heavy they are making the decisions? How come we have folks that have never sold? Maybe they sold a fundraising round, and maybe they've sold sold themselves into a c suite role, But they've never carried a bag. Yeah. They've never sat behind a windshield. They've never racked up the hotel And airline miles and the lack of time at home, they're setting metrics based off what they're board, their investors, The street. Oh, I'm hating that term right now. The streets. Celeste Berke [00:26:30]: I also used the street in the industry that I came from, though, it's like you said, You're in it in the day to day. You're seeing what's going on. You're so in tune to what's happening and the challenges that they're having in the conversations. So this individual I talked to the other day, this Huge organization said that they have never received, in 2 years, anybody nobody has listened to a call that they've been on. They've never had any coaching on it. They have stopped recording their calls, because why does it matter? In the industry that I came from, there was such a gap between Everybody who was in a let's let's call them the c suite for lack of I was, like, junior c suite. I got to go to the meetings, but I wasn't in, like, the big meetings. Peter Wheeler [00:27:10]: Oh, see at the kids' table? Celeste Berke [00:27:11]: But I had, like, a seat at the adults' table, but then Peter Wheeler [00:27:16]: No. You said at the kids' table, but she could hear what Celeste Berke [00:27:18]: was going on at Peter Wheeler [00:27:18]: the adults' table. Celeste Berke [00:27:19]: And these people would talk about, like, well, 20 years ago when I was there, well, this is how we used to do it. News flash, and he now has done that. Right? Like, The further you are away Yeah. Peter Wheeler [00:27:30]: Just spin the number on the phone. Right? Celeste Berke [00:27:31]: The further you are away from what is happening, it's really hard to make decisions for other people We don't know. Peter Wheeler [00:27:37]: Well, it's it's a perspective problem too. One of the things that I argue when I get into marketing leadership situations is The value of anecdotal. You get into these marketers now and these organizations that lean into growth hackers and ninjas and wizards and whatever terms they wanna make up. Where it's like, okay. These are the reports. This is the net promoter score. This is my favorite spicy topic right now is how many people are coming out that they hate net promoter scores and that they're useless because they are. Nobody's listening. Peter Wheeler [00:28:08]: So Nikki Dibbon, who's a phenomenal fractional marketing leader, She's like, when I establish budget for shows trade shows. Salespeople always wanna do trade shows. It's the hottest leads. They get the FaceTime and blah blah blah, You know, Decent T and E. They marketing never stands up and says, what what was the result? They look at it and they go, okay. It cost us much. We did these many lead scans. They don't even look at how the campaign's played out. Peter Wheeler [00:28:37]: They don't look at what the conversion was. They don't look at, Like the re the actual ROI. They just go, we had this volume come in because they're worried about the funnel. Celeste Berke [00:28:45]: Yep. Peter Wheeler [00:28:46]: And she puts it to the salesperson. What did you accomplish? Was it worth it? And that was something I started taking Oh, and we were going to shows, especially with boundless. We were going to shows, like, for open source community because that was a big part of our stuff. Open source means nobody pays for it, And we were getting high conversions from there. When I did the work for Mapbox, that was a community that we supported pretty heavily. And we were able to close $1,000,000 in government business in under 6 months because we were doing the anecdotal. We were getting the feedback from the sales People were getting feedback from the audience. We were this isn't net promoter score. Peter Wheeler [00:29:27]: This isn't this isn't leading feedback. This is like honest answers. That show sucked. They picked a bad venue. The timing was off. Like, you get those real numbers. You get the stuff like the coffee was horrible. It's like, okay. Peter Wheeler [00:29:41]: That's fine. I'll I'll throw a can of Folgers Crystals into your luggage. What are what what do you need on that front? We're talking about the business case of it. But this is where, like, we're all failing. Is this siloing, this focusing on stuff that is contributory? You know, you have this anecdotal on who you're listening to, and that's just, like, you're you're not establishing metrics that are That makes sense. Yeah. And the silos unhealthy. And that's again where we get into product hates engineering. Peter Wheeler [00:30:12]: Yeah. Marketing hates product. Sales hates marketing. Celeste Berke [00:30:16]: A huge thing, a phrase that our team loves. We're always like, why does that matter? Why does that matter? And why does that matter? You know, it's just constantly, like, why does that matter? When when we're talking to individuals, and They're going down this rabbit hole of shooting the shit with people on Discovery or talking about their like, why does that matter to them? I'm surprised that companies do so well with just how poorly we are doing. And I think to your point, it's, like, awesome products that are out there. But, eventually, as tech continues, he's going to continue to evolve. We're at this intersection of rapid speed to market. Right? It's speed to market. But at some point, it's not your product. Right? There's 10 others out there like it. Celeste Berke [00:31:07]: And this churn and burn on the front end from sales, like, what is that tipping point? Peter Wheeler [00:31:15]: Okay. So then, like, going into that, what's the what's the switch that you see happening? There's low code, no code, AI, Code validation. Agent building now. Like, everybody wants to build a category. My favorite my Favorite CEO statement when I go and ask them questions about the product and what they do and how the sales motion's gonna work or PLG as a sales This motion's gonna work. We have no competitors. Celeste Berke [00:31:45]: And you're like, it yet. Or do you? Cool. Peter Wheeler [00:31:51]: Cool. If you that's fine. Now you have 2 big problems. You're creating a category. The biggest problem. And you probably purple lotion. You might have a little bit of blue, but it's mostly red, bud. Sorry. Celeste Berke [00:32:10]: This is the part that we've arrived to that I think is so awesome, is that individuals have so much to offer and are so diverse and have this, like, subject matter knowledge or like yourself, Kind of a savant of many things, like you said, jack of jack of a lot, able to work, but still working on passion projects as well, Blending that all together because bringing that to an organization carries a lot of value and weight. Peter Wheeler [00:32:38]: You took my heart. Yeah. But I I would say I'm I'm it's been more of, like, hopping from life raft to life raft than bundling sticks to build that next island. No. And that's that's something that that I hope people start changing and seeing. It's something that I hope organizations stop fearing that Remote work means pea that people are gonna have j ones and j twos and pursue overemployed. People should be pursuing Side hustles. Now don't get me wrong. Peter Wheeler [00:33:07]: I don't like the word hustle. I wanna cancel culture. I wanna cancel hustle culture. But You're not gonna have perspective if you're living in an echo chamber of your job. You're not gonna bring in we always talk about experience. People hire in competency. Have you done this job before, and did you do it well? It's a worst thing to hire somebody on. Then you have the other aspect of it is, Do I think they can do the job, and do I like them? And somewhere, it falls in between the 2, but both of those are bad. Peter Wheeler [00:33:40]: It's interesting. It's a bell curve. There we go. They're both they're both low, but there's a middle that's pretty high. One thing that I would like to warn people about is Don't convert your hobby into a job because then it becomes a job. Don't convert friends and family into employees or business partners Because from there forward, they're no longer friends and family. That's the hard part. It's hard building out that Scenario. Peter Wheeler [00:34:07]: So, oh, there we go. Let's go back 30 minutes to what we were really gonna talk about. Founder led sales, Entrepreneurship, solopreneurship, getting out there in the sink or swim. So salespeople, you wanna do something on the side? Because you have a lot of free time. You really don't. I know you don't. But you wanna do something on the side? Remember, you gotta do the work too. You don't do paperwork. Peter Wheeler [00:34:30]: Salespeople don't do paperwork. Never have. That's why we get in trouble. That's why marketing doesn't like us. Celeste Berke [00:34:34]: That's why it's not in the CRM. Peter Wheeler [00:34:36]: But then everybody else that thinks sales is disgusting and scary And hard? Well, number 1, it is all 3 of those things, but it's a lot of good things too. Don't forget when you're doing the work, you also have to be selling. Because then you get into this weird tide situation where you will starve for months. And guess what? It's harder to sell when you're starving than it is when you're working. And, like, you compare it to anything. Like, you can be single forever, And then you're dating somebody that you actually like, and now everybody's at your doorstep. It's so weird. We have a job that you're totally in love with, and now recruiters are calling you, but but it's also because you're putting out a certain energy. Peter Wheeler [00:35:17]: Those ones, it is because you're putting out a certain energy. The rest of the time, like, Just remember, if you're gonna do it all, you gotta do it all. That sucks. That's fun. That's addictive. Celeste Berke [00:35:29]: And then you layer in some kids, and you're not Sleeping, and then you're trying to exercise because you're aging, and eat healthy, and maybe take a vacation that isn't actually a vacation. It's It's just parenting in a different location, and, yeah, it's a lot of balls to juggle. Peter Wheeler [00:35:47]: So I guess you you hit on the third one that I still miss Today, self care. Self care. Because you're not any good to anybody unless you're good to yourself, Period. Celeste Berke [00:36:00]: Damn. Peter Wheeler [00:36:01]: So, yeah, how's your journey going? How how much how much fun are you having? How much misery are you having? I'm gonna turn the tables here because I can tell you all my stories, But I'm always curious. Like, you're gonna quit? Celeste Berke [00:36:11]: No. And, actually, somebody somebody asked me that a couple of weeks ago when I said, this is tough. Building your own pipeline as an entrepreneur When you're trying to educate, sales training is tough to sell because Somebody has to understand that they have a problem and that they're willing to change, and that they're willing to change to you. And as individuals, we don't like to admit we have a problem or that we need help. So as a VP of sales, a CRO, the same is the case. A lot of times, my entry is an IC and then them becoming a champion or sharing information. And a lot of the information that comes back is, I don't wanna work on that. Like, My strategy's good. Celeste Berke [00:37:00]: We're we're working out the kinks, yet we see win rates below 10%, decline in sales, discount. And one of the companies that, I'm talking to, they discount a 100% of the time. Interesting. Okay. 100% of the time at 50%. Peter Wheeler [00:37:19]: Is that the is that the pricing model? I've I have yet to really encounter an organization that has ever sold a list. Celeste Berke [00:37:26]: Well, it begs a whole another question. Right? Like, why why are we discounting? Why are salespeople doing that? Questions are they asking? Do they know what problems they're solving? I mean, the list goes on and on, And it's been very eye opening. There's absolutely no methodology, no framework, no, established Processes, no training, no enablement, and they're slinging new products in order to keep that funnel moving, and that's what they're looking at the health of the organization on. So it is definitely been frustrating. Peter Wheeler [00:37:59]: Velocity. Celeste Berke [00:38:00]: Yes. The velocity. It's definitely been Frustrating to compete with a lot of noise out there. As an entrepreneur, what I found is that aligning with sales growth, the company, while there's really only, like, 3 and a 3 employees plus some fractional talent. It has been an amazing place for continued mentorship and growth and business development. So every week, they pour into me. I feel like I'm a w two employee without being a w two employee. I get coaching and the feedback. Celeste Berke [00:38:36]: And then with The new partners who are coming on, I'm able to see their learning journey. So it's this amazing let blend of being an entrepreneur, but not Sitting here by myself all day and having team team interaction, and I would say the the first part of my entrepreneurial journey, I didn't know if I could do it because I'm pretty much an intro like, I'm an extroverted introvert. And I loved going into the office because I liked the energy from other people, And when I don't have that, sitting behind my desk all day, if I don't have calls, I'm not interacting with people, It's a tough thing to say. Let's do this again tomorrow. And like you said, you go months months without revenue because you're iterating and, like, Okay. Now I don't wanna work with individuals. I'm looking at companies. Now I'm just looking at this industry. Celeste Berke [00:39:26]: They have this problem. So you're constantly second guessing yourself and But no, I won't give up because I bet on myself. Peter Wheeler [00:39:35]: There you go. It's a good bet. Celeste Berke [00:39:37]: And I've seen The freedom, the flexibility, the upside versus Mhmm. I w two employee of why are you wearing that? Why did this person Do that. Can you contact them? Copy me on this email. Peter Wheeler [00:40:00]: You've still got all that. You've still got all that. That's not going away. But now you have the addition of people ask you where you work, you say you're self employed. Right. Celeste Berke [00:40:07]: And they're like And Peter Wheeler [00:40:08]: they look at you like you're unemployed. Celeste Berke [00:40:09]: So you're unemployed. Peter Wheeler [00:40:11]: Yep. Or, you know, my favorite is people ask you all types of favors. Can you run errands for me? You're not doing anything today. You're you're not busy. Celeste Berke [00:40:20]: I think mine is more so can I have your time? Can you help me with this? Can you help me build out my LinkedIn? That's the biggest one. Can you just give me some pointers? Do you have 30 minutes where you could just help me with this? So tell us, as we wrap up here, I'd love to know If you could sum up, like, 1 myth going into that you wanna bust, What would it be? Peter Wheeler [00:40:48]: Who? A myth. A myth. Something that people Celeste Berke [00:40:51]: believe that isn't True. Peter Wheeler [00:40:54]: That you get more closes with more prospects. Celeste Berke [00:41:00]: The old TOF. Yes. More. Mhmm. More has not more. Peter Wheeler [00:41:09]: It's more annoying. Oh, no. It is. It weren't worth you're starting to forget with Celeste Berke [00:41:17]: This is true. This is true. Peter Wheeler [00:41:19]: Without, But, yeah, the demark problems and going to spam and everything else, like, we're gonna go back to the old rules In the old ways of playing. Celeste Berke [00:41:29]: Get those beepers out. Peter Wheeler [00:41:30]: March. Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:41:32]: Meaning at the pay phone. Wonderful. See pay phones pop up again. Everything old is new again. Actually, Peter Wheeler [00:41:40]: I have I have an album online called Feral Phones, where All my travels, I take pictures of pay phones. Celeste Berke [00:41:48]: What? That's getting harder to Peter Wheeler [00:41:49]: find them. Still function. That's the rules that they have to Still funky. Have a different library Celeste Berke [00:41:53]: of a recording. That's getting harder to find, I bet. Peter Wheeler [00:41:57]: Depends where you go. It's just like you think video rental stores don't exist anymore, but they do. It's a we'll stay out of social impact. We'll stay out of that altogether, but that's a that's a whole channel I can go down as far as Celeste Berke [00:42:10]: Alright. Well Peter Wheeler [00:42:12]: money. Bye. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Celeste Berke [00:42:15]: No. It's been such a pleasure just to hear from someone, right, at this This juncture of entrepreneurship, w two head of marketing in sales understands it all and continues through all the muck and the mud and your building. Alright. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, Peter. Catch him on LinkedIn Putting out some spicy content. Not afraid to challenge others in the comment section, but we'll definitely not respond to your DM if it sucks, and we'll get moved to the other inbox. So no trolling, but Peter's up to great things and always great to see your Savantanist, I will say.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Hello. Hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge Podcast. I have a unicorn with us, A legend, Will Aiken. You made a huge announcement recently about your of this. Will Aitken [00:00:18]: The logo. My AI generated graffiti art logo. Celeste Berke [00:00:22]: Yeah. I Will Aitken [00:00:23]: don't know why I went through all the graffiti as well because I'm not street. I'm not urban, But I just like color. But you can listen to my voice. You can hear more teas and biscuits rather than spray painting graffiti on the wall outside, but It just it just felt right. I launched I launched willakin.com. Celeste Berke [00:00:38]: Tell us about your new venture. Will Aitken [00:00:41]: I got tired of For point to the mat, you know, done that. For a long time, I've I've I've felt like I could do this by myself, and I didn't because that the ever cooling, that siren sound of Safety of having a job. It's so tempting, especially, I've got a young family, got 2 young kids. I'm the breadwinner in my house. It it it it's so easy to just keep doing what you're doing and get paid for it. But I know that the value I could bring, it will be much more for myself than it would be The salary that I was taking. Right? I'm sure I loved what I was doing. I loved the job I was doing and and the work, and that's that's a position of luxury if you haven't say that, but I just I gotta do it. Will Aitken [00:01:18]: You know? I gotta take the risk. I gotta go all in. And even if I fail, which I probably won't because I won't let myself do that, I can say I did it. Right? But I've always had that nag at the back of my head, and it just happened to be the right time. So I went all in, and here we are. And, it's going pretty well so far. I won't lie. I mean, launch week, you're gonna get a bunch of support. Will Aitken [00:01:34]: Got a ton of great friends in the space who have all been super supportive. I know it's gonna probably harder from here. Yeah. It's been Overwhelmingly positive so far. Celeste Berke [00:01:43]: What's interesting and what I love listeners to take away from this is you put in the reps ahead of time to build your brand, to build your network, to give back, to build in public, to show what you were doing so that when you did take that leap and and this is, like, akin to salespeople is what I'm getting to. Akin akin. To salespeople, you can't just get in the seat and start prospecting and think, look, these are gonna go in. The shooter's mentality. No. You gotta get in the dirty reps, the practice just upfront and build before things stick. Will Aitken [00:02:22]: I I think that's that's a really good point. It's something I thought about as well. A lot of Business owners, they go out and they create this idea, and then they go and try and build a brand. What that it it took me 2 years to build this brand. And I grew quicker than most because I did some outrageous stuff and had this very little filter, which people seem to like for some reason. Mostly we don't have as quick of a come up. Right? So, like, if I was stuck my business and didn't have any followers today, I'd be I'd be dead in the water. You know? I'd already have to be looking for a new job With my tail between my legs, obviously, would have made the decision if it didn't have what I have. Will Aitken [00:02:55]: But, Celeste Berke [00:02:55]: It's tough. Someone asked me that a couple of weeks ago. It was actually Daniel Ryan. He probably know Daniel from aligned. So Will Aitken [00:03:04]: Nice. Celeste Berke [00:03:05]: He was saying, this is so hard for you to build a pipeline because I self source. I was that person for 20 years in corporate. Never thought about my personal brand. I knew everybody in the industry, but not online. And 3 years ago, having to start at 1500 connections on LinkedIn and start building public, This isn't an uphill battle, and he said, what if this doesn't work out? What are you gonna do? And I said, Daniel, there is no it has to. So I will keep going. Will Aitken [00:03:37]: Yeah. I I I think that's what you just said is pretty darn true and great for an entrepreneur. It has to. It's like a little chip in your shoulder. Got something to prove. You can't fail. You won't allow yourself to. But I can tell just from the the vibe you give Selassie. Will Aitken [00:03:52]: You know? You've got some interest to say that people would wanna listen to. You know what I mean? Celeste Berke [00:03:56]: Having female over. I know I don't look it. I'm 44 with a 4 year old. Right? Slaves. Slaves. Corporate after 20 years, and now I'm in my 2nd act, and I Will Aitken [00:04:11]: You look like Younger than I do. I'm 29 with a 4 year old. Celeste Berke [00:04:16]: You are not 29. Will Aitken [00:04:18]: That's what I mean. Yeah. I'm 29. I just I just forgot to moisturize for all those years of sales. They they're not nicer to the to the wrinkles. Celeste Berke [00:04:28]: Well and that's what's interesting is This I think as a salesperson, you also have to have a little bit of an the entrepreneurial bug because you are in a little bit of a silo in a sales role. I heard from a huge company the other day. 500 reps on the team, they get no coaching. There is no nothing. They're winging it in the wild, wild west. And if you don't have that little flame inside you that says I'm competitive, I can do this, this month sucked, Next one's gonna be better. This is what I'm building. You just go in and collect your paycheck and waiting for the day that you get axed. Will Aitken [00:05:04]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:05:04]: How do you think that entrepreneurial bug served you as a employee, like a traditional w two employee? Will Aitken [00:05:14]: It's just total accountability and ownership of everything you do. I kind of hate that word accountability because it's so synonymous with, like, toxic people who just don't recognize that they've got a ton of privilege. Like, Me go out there and be like, no excuses. I'm a posh British tool, handsome, very handsome white dude. Come on. Like, I can't go out there and be like, You're just making excuses, people. But at the same time, like, in sales that you do need a level of accountability to say, like, I don't want to rely on. I don't want to rely on marketing. Will Aitken [00:05:42]: I'm going to go get my own pipeline. I'm going to say, even though that deal wasn't my fault, I lost it. What could I have done differently so I can learn from that next time? You need that. Otherwise, you would just sit there, like, going, oh, it's not fair. I sound like one of those toxic assholes on, like, TikTok, like, the the Won't name anyone, but, like, the the car sales dudes who, like but at the same time, you do need a little bit of that because, otherwise, you will just end up in this wallowing pit of self to bear despair, which isn't a fun place to be. I've been there. I've I I I was there for many years before I got good, before I read gap sell. I remember I was in sales, and I was I was working at this company, and I had the worst territory objectively the worst territory. Will Aitken [00:06:22]: I know this because I've measured it. I took a business case to my manager. Like, look at my bad territory. And all these other reps were up for me and me, but I was so focused on what they had and what I didn't. I wasn't even focusing what I was bringing to the role anymore, which was very not enough. Wasn't looking at what I was doing to learn on the side, what I could do to make the most of my territory, what what people with similar territories was doing to still win. I was so focused on what I didn't have. I was Completely blinds to the fact that I was not focusing on what I could do. Will Aitken [00:06:49]: And then I was like, okay. Well, if I work for a different company, it'll be different. And I went into the interview process with a company, and they were like, well, we're looking for someone who's got a sales process. So I Googled sales process, and I, like, read it out on the interview. Like, yeah. I do Discovery, which I didn't do. And I and then I do a, demo call after that, and they're like, oh, that's great. Then I asked them, what resources does your team really love? They're like gap selling. Will Aitken [00:07:13]: So I knew I had 1 week between the 1st interview and the 2nd interview. I had to finish gap selling so I could keep pretending that I knew what I was doing I could get this job because the job was the problem. But luckily, in the process of doing that, I got that job. And when I got there, I got great coaching and applied a lot of the stuff that I from from reading that book in a week and then reading it again. And my manager was both trained and and and believed in gaps on methodologies and a couple of things as well. And Then everything got better, and I realized, oh my gosh. I was the problem the whole time. I just didn't you know, like, it was the product that I was selling. Celeste Berke [00:07:46]: Taylor Swift wrote about. Right? Will Aitken [00:07:48]: It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Right? But, like, it took me so long to catch that point. I just wish I had known that early because the moment It will start to make sense. It will start to becoming easier and actually a lot more fun as well. Instead of wallowing and clocking off and doing the bare minimum, I was excited to go to work. I was Excited, talked to Claude. Will Aitken [00:08:07]: I was excited to to reach out and prospect and and meet new people and keep learning. And then and then one day I asked for a promotion, and I didn't get one, so I I acted like a toddler and went and became a content marketer instead. Boo. But here I am. I got it. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:08:22]: But I Will Aitken [00:08:23]: thought I Celeste Berke [00:08:23]: did sales. Here you are. Hold on. Will Aitken [00:08:25]: Let's do it. Celeste Berke [00:08:26]: Right? Taking every and that's what I love. So I'm all about people who are real and authentic and are like, hey. This shit sucks, and it's gonna be tough. And this is what Rachel why I love Rachel May. She has been, like, the hardest female coach boss that I've ever had, And I always looked at it as, like, it's them. They're so mean. And this time around at age 44, I'm like, Oh, she sees my area of opportunity, which is why she's pushing on me so hard. It's why these conversations are so difficult, but I'm learning so much. Celeste Berke [00:09:03]: And it is that simple shift of not why why me to the why not me. I can do this because there's something inside of me. And maybe it's, like ADD or ADHD or competitive drive or we have It's Will Aitken [00:09:18]: definitely ADHD. I can see it in you. I I think that's also, like, a good thing as, like, a superpower because my dad has that. Like, if you saw me and him, he'd be like, like, what's that? What's that? You know, like, in public. Like, woah. It's a it's a bird. You know? Like, it's still, like, concept of but in a way is is like a superpower. I always find, like, people who are like that, they managed to make it work. Will Aitken [00:09:35]: And, obviously, you've been doing that for such a long time That you've made it something that you can turn into goodness. And I said the same thing about anxiety as well. Celeste Berke [00:09:43]: Oh, I love Will Aitken [00:09:44]: Even though I definitely have had, like, crippling anxiety, A certain level anxiety is a really good thing because if you don't have anxiety, just think about this. Not having anxiety is like not worrying. Right? You would have no drive. Yeah. You're always worried to move. Celeste Berke [00:09:57]: Of the, like Will Aitken [00:09:59]: If I don't do this, then it's like you need obviously, too much can become too much. That's right. Celeste Berke [00:10:03]: Oh, and the Will Aitken [00:10:03]: But it's still the amount. Celeste Berke [00:10:05]: Is not fun. It is not fun. Will Aitken [00:10:07]: No. You'd Celeste Berke [00:10:07]: be like No. Will Aitken [00:10:08]: No. No. Celeste Berke [00:10:08]: Bag, and you're like, this is death. This is what death feels like. Will Aitken [00:10:11]: Touching touching, like, ice face. Come on. Wake up. It's okay. Touch touch touch something solid. You know? Celeste Berke [00:10:17]: Laying on a cold bathroom Laura, getting as close to the earth as he can during a panic attack has been marvelous. Will Aitken [00:10:23]: In the in the shower, just sound on the floor like Celeste Berke [00:10:27]: But as is a Will Aitken [00:10:28]: describing me at a conference. 3 days. Celeste Berke [00:10:31]: Panic attacks suck. But I agree. That tiny little bit of the, like, the the buzz of anxiety keeps you going. And I'm sure your kids love it too because you're probably so much fun. Will Aitken [00:10:41]: Yeah. I I can see it in my son as well. He's he's definitely got a little bit of whatever I have. As I said, I can see it most with my father. He used to he would still is probably a big role role role role role role model for me Because he's just always going. What makes him interested? What makes him fun at a party? What makes him a great business owner? And for so long, I looked up to him. And then recently, he came over, and he was like, Will, you do realize you I almost felt guilty that I I wasn't more successful. He said, Will, you do realize you make more than me now? And I was like, Well, dad. Will Aitken [00:11:15]: Yes. Screw you, dad. No. But, like, it was like a moment, like, I was like, woah. And, like, I don't know. For so long, I felt guilty that I hadn't been more successful because all the things he did for me and the way he set me up live and stuff. And then I hearing that, I was like, oh. Yeah. Will Aitken [00:11:30]: But now what? Celeste Berke [00:11:31]: I'm staying seas with you, my dad. My dad's 78, so, like, a lot older than your father. But he's still, like, go go go go go. Works full time, runs a $10,000,000 business that he built from scratch 40 years ago. He does Ironman. He teaches spin class 2 days a week. He's a master swimmer, he's written 3 books. He's just, like Will Aitken [00:11:51]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:11:51]: Set the bar. Will Aitken [00:11:52]: He's written 3 books? What on? Celeste Berke [00:11:54]: Well, he wants me to teach him how to I do a podcast, so that's coming when he comes in 2 weeks. Pay it. Will Aitken [00:11:59]: I'll teach him how to use the script. Celeste Berke [00:12:03]: Tales my patients told me, so it'll be, like, stories over the years. Will Aitken [00:12:08]: Is he a doctor? Mhmm. Wow. Celeste Berke [00:12:09]: Yeah. Physician. And another one was He lived in Africa for 3 years, worked for the Canadian government. He's Canadian. So he has pictures and short stories that go along with that. And another one is, Like, short stories about his one of his grandchild's, like, doll, I think. I haven't read it. I'm getting it for Christmas, so we'll see. Celeste Berke [00:12:31]: But He's a great storyteller in that he's a couple of that as well. Great salesperson by default. I feel like people who are great storytellers because this what what happens in content, you tell a great story and it leads people down a path. Will Aitken [00:12:50]: I don't know. People ask me stuff about content, and there's a reason I didn't start a content business. I started a sales business. Right? And that's because, like, well, what do you do content consulting? Why do you teach companies how to make great content? I'm like because I don't know how. I just showed up online and decided that I haven't posted anything, And that worked. That doesn't mean I can tell everyone to. That that's not like a a universal way to grow. And the reason I made the concept was because I had a passion for the thing I was talking about. Will Aitken [00:13:15]: It's sales. I wouldn't have gone and done the role if Lavender was a selling to marketers company. Because I don't care about marketing. I care about sales. That's what's interesting to me. So it's fascinating. That's what keeps me, like, going, like, that's so interesting. There's a reason I will not become a a content Content person. Will Aitken [00:13:33]: I've noticed this trend in life. There's these people who became successful telling other people how to be successful, And I don't think that counts. Honestly, I'm getting a little bit closer a little bit meta here. But, like, If you can only be successful teaching other people how to be successful, then those people can only get successful by doing the same thing you did. They can only be so many success coaches out there. Alright. And in the same way, if I was a content creator teaching other people how to create great content, then it doesn't count, If you know what I mean. I don't think that counts. Will Aitken [00:14:07]: It's like I I'm trying to Celeste Berke [00:14:10]: It's like a doctor never practicing and teaching other doctors how to be a doctor, you're not in the seat. You don't have hands on the patient. You don't know what it feels like for, like, a pregnant woman's belly or, or, like, the The throat, right, the the glands that are swollen, because I just know how to teach being a doctor. Will Aitken [00:14:26]: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. If that doctor had never been a doctor, it doesn't count. Right. They don't have the credentials to teach our people to help be adopted. And this is, like, part of my impost syndrome, I suppose, as well. I haven't sold for 2 years now. Will Aitken [00:14:38]: I need to get back in that seat, make sure I'm still practicing about when I need to keep touching these things. And, yes, there is a certain element of entrepreneurship, which is gonna be sales. Right? You know this. You've closed you talk to them, you still do the discovery process. You still get You Celeste Berke [00:14:51]: still do deals. Will Aitken [00:14:52]: Yeah. And that's what that is what I need to do more, but I'm wondering even more of that. I'm gonna Cold calling, like, open to watch me f up. It's gonna be brutal. It's gonna be even more anxiety inducing than normal cold calling because I'm gonna have an audience watching me, And I'm will it I don't care if I fail because it's real and it shows that it's not just tell it's not just telling, it's showing as well and it's anyway. But both I made some cold calls the other day, and I've kind of missed this adrenaline. It's crazy because I do not enjoy cold call, and I hate it. It's horrible. Will Aitken [00:15:21]: And let's be real. Anyone who tells you That they do or is he the lion or, like, cuckoo. But but I did it, and it gave me a feeling I haven't had in so long of, like, It it feels good to have butterflies about something. It feels good to be nervous about something. That's a good thing to have. Because if you don't do that if you never have that, You're not telling yourself. The same thing happened when I did public speaking as well. That's why I love doing that as well. Will Aitken [00:15:44]: That feeling for you on stage where you Celeste Berke [00:15:45]: Oh, jeez. You're like, I'm gonna die. I feel sick. Yeah. That's good. Right? Am I talking about? I forgotten everything I've ever learned. I can't know where to Will Aitken [00:15:53]: come from. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:15:54]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Will Aitken [00:15:55]: It makes you feel alive, though. Right? Like, that's what it that like, without that feeling, then life would be kinda boring. And I realized that I haven't had that feeling in so long when I started making cold calls a couple weeks And I was like, oh, I need to do this more. Yeah. I need to do 5 4 more more things that made me feel this uneasy, sweaty, clammy hands because Celeste Berke [00:16:12]: I get it. I get it. Rachel and I Did some cold calling. She was via Zoom yesterday, and you're like, but it is it is what it is if you're not practicing. And that's something that, you know, I love. Like I was saying, people who are real and authentic, who have time in the seat. I moonlight as helping some companies with their online Branding as well as helping our sales team learn how to prospect on LinkedIn. That's what I started doing. Celeste Berke [00:16:44]: I get asked to speak about it, do workshops. But this summer, when I stepped on stage in front of 350 people, immediate was like, I'm a little kid. I don't know what I'm doing. How am I here? How am I I only have this conference of 3,000 people. So I don't think that ever goes away, but the the awesome part is People see you every day online doing the craft. So you're not just teaching about it. You're actually doing it, and you're sharing the Missus as well as the winds. And that's a huge part of, I think, people that Can resonate with others who are real in the sales seat. Celeste Berke [00:17:24]: Like, are you doing it too? And that's a huge miss from sales organizations who have VPs and CROs were so far removed from what happened from day to day. Yeah. Just close more deals. Will Aitken [00:17:37]: Yes. Because more deals, do more calls, make more calls, make more send more emails, have more discovery calls, just talk to more customers. It will all get better. Celeste Berke [00:17:43]: So I'm I'm curious Will Aitken [00:17:45]: like drowning. Celeste Berke [00:17:46]: Why you said you love sales. This is your superpower. Why launch this prospecting like that? Why is that your arena? Will Aitken [00:17:59]: Why the prospecting thing? Mhmm. I mean, honestly, I I would like to talk about all aspects of sales, but And, you know, I I told you about this before we hit record today. I don't feel comfortable. I have what I would consider original ideas when it comes to prospect. Or at least I have enough experience or enough of of listened and Heard and been taught by enough variety of people that have been able to perform a unique perspective of some kind. I believe what I have to say about prospecting And how to make a coke win, how to send an email, and the focus of all these things, and how you bring that all together in a message that actually resonates, gets people going from I'm not looking To hang on a second. This sounds interesting. I know I have something there that I can say is is mine and it's unique. Will Aitken [00:18:50]: If I was to try and go and do a discovery workshop right now, I feel like it would be too close to say that isn't mine, and I need to still find that. And I'm not sure how that happens, but What I would end up doing is just teaching cap songs to people or a crap version of it because I've only you know, I've never been taught by Kean, and I've read his book 6 times. I've had Sandler training, which has some parallels at least, but but, like, then I'm only gonna be teaching Sandler's people. Right? And at which point they could probably get it for much less from a franchise near them. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I have I call imposter syndrome or maybe a moral compass that says I cannot I'm not I shouldn't do that Until I have a good reason to do that. So for now Celeste Berke [00:19:35]: Or you're building it in stages. Will Aitken [00:19:37]: Or I'm building in stages. Yeah. I think a lot of people try to do too much as well. If I can if I can nail this 1st part and I can show that I can I can sell it and I can get demand and people want it and people care about it And people say this was amazing, then that gives me more confidence to do more of it? And that's maybe when I branch out to more things. But for now, I think I think there's a real problem out there. I mean, I I feel I feel like a lot of the like, the the the SDR, BDR model for a lot of outbound teams, a lot of account now going full cycle that no. I'm really get to that well. We get so tied up in this this vacuum chamber of LinkedIn, this echo chamber, should I call it, it's a vacuum, Well, we assume everyone knows the basics that not to write long ass emails that are full of pitchy language, talking about their solution, how innovative it is, and How it's gonna 8 times their pipeline or whatever their result. Will Aitken [00:20:30]: You know? But then you realize that's, like, A tiny fraction, like the smallest fraction of all the people out there who are actually selling. And it's like normal it's actually quite a quite a good Fraction. Generally, people who are on LinkedIn, people are probably looking for more place to learn and probably already know. And then you go into a sales team And you look at their emails, and it's like, oh, how did this happen? And it's because I believe that, like, the people at the Tom, don't realize this. Intuitively, when you start in sales and you don't get from the guidance, I told you about my experience in sales when I was making all excuses and blame my territory. I was making all these mistakes. Intuitively, you think you're meant to show up and pitch. You think you're meant to show up and be polite and say that I hope they find you well and ask are you at the start of your cold calls and Celeste Berke [00:21:16]: Right. Will Aitken [00:21:16]: And b, like weather. And make it and make your things sound good. You know? Like, That that's that's what we assume. Like, I don't know what it's a stereotypes or the way we're raised or just like what we think sales is. People just go that's their default. And you need to have someone come along sometimes and just go, no. Like, I had that, like, blindfolded for me when I actually finally got good training and and sales start becoming fun and Lots of just like a grind and just doing tons of this. Once I'd start having a process and doing things the right way and asking the right questions and knowing why People show interest in why people buy and why they don't buy. Will Aitken [00:21:51]: If you don't know any of that, then you just just have to kinda wing it and wing it often is just Awful. Celeste Berke [00:21:57]: Yeah. And I and I'm seeing that with teams too. It it stinks from the get go of everything, and I think there's this real opportunity for change right now as baby boomers I hate to say it, as baby boomers exit and New leadership comes into place. We can't continue to do what we've done. You know? The early sales training that I got when I was 27 was definitely banned, and it still freaking exists because my husband showed it Will Aitken [00:22:24]: to me Celeste Berke [00:22:25]: the other day. Here is your qualification checklist. Are the questions that you need to ask on the 1st freaking call, and I remember that from 15, 16, 17 years ago. Cringey. I believe we're still in this place of order Will Aitken [00:22:38]: We assume that people know this by now. But, yeah, you and I know it, and half the people connected on LinkedIn and you follow me on LinkedIn know it. But that's, like, 40,000 people. There's, like, a 1000000, millions of other people out there who aren't part of that, who don't know that yet, who haven't been shaking like, no. Stop asking them if they have the timeline, budget, and authority to buy. What are you doing? You know? Celeste Berke [00:23:00]: Or, like, what is your what is your role? How big is your team? Like, All the things that you can educate yourself on. Ahead of time, I had a rep at a huge company tell me the other day They don't have enough questions to ask to fill up 15 minutes of a discovery call. And I said, okay. Okay. I mean, Our discoveries are usually 2 or 3 calls. Right? I I'm so confused. What are you focusing on? And, again, very. No. Celeste Berke [00:23:27]: They don't record their sales calls. Nobody's listening to them. They're not getting any training. How do we break this? Because it is still out there, and this is why buyers will say, I prefer a rep free experience. Will Aitken [00:23:41]: Yeah. Of course, they will. Because they jump on a call of an SEO goes, Celeste, do you have the budget for this product? They're like, I I don't I I don't know how much it cost. Can you tell me? No. No. No. You get that later. Do you have the need for this? I I think so. Will Aitken [00:23:59]: What I wanna find out. Can I have a demo? Yeah. Sure. Sure. That comes later after this call and then a discovery. And do you have a timeline? Yeah. Soon, ideally, less than 2 calls from yeah. Okay. Will Aitken [00:24:11]: Alright. Cool. Alright. I don't think you're qualified, so I'm not gonna introduce you to an account executive. Course Buyers don't want that. Who would would want that? I believe that sales best practices when done wrong are bad practice. So a lot of what you teach, a lot of what Kean talks about, a lot of gaps and a lot of Selling good. Solution selling, let's just call as a branch umbrella because there's a lot of ways to sell better than that Yeah. Will Aitken [00:24:33]: Is asking questions. Right? But if you just heard ask questions is how you better go to sales, if you ask the wrong questions, then you're actually gonna be probably worse off than just giving the buyer everything they want and just showing a demo. You're asking bad questions, like, you just kinda annoy people. I believe that every sales best practice when done the wrong way is, like, the worst thing you can do. But I think about, like, Challenging your bias. That's quite when you do that the wrong way and just tell people they're wrong, you just are, like, basically being an arrogant douche. Alright. But when you do it the right way, you can actually change people's perspective and move their criteria from silly things that they they should be on. Will Aitken [00:25:09]: But When you do it the wrong way, you just seem like an asshole who who who thinks they know better than a c level executive when realistically you're just a rent sales rep who's probably not in quotes. Right? Like Celeste Berke [00:25:21]: Who ideally do you want to work with? If you could have your pick. Will Aitken [00:25:26]: What's your Celeste Berke [00:25:26]: Who is an ideal customer Company that you wanna go in there and change that behavior. Will Aitken [00:25:46]: I'd tell anyone who who has a natural solution rather than a commodity. I think there's a category of people out there who think they sell commodity, but don't realize they don't. I think I talked these people, and they're like, well, well, we don't sell this software that changes the way people do it there. Because I just sell A piece of machinery that goes in that machine that buyers look at the line item, which you're trying to get the best deal for. I'm like, that can still be something. Then you can still be a solution if you know what the problem is because everything, every solution Has a problem that and and people just don't realize it without flipping on its head. The moment I start saying this makes you faster, I'm basically saying you're doing it too slowly today, and that's the problem. And I don't think people would think about that enough. Will Aitken [00:26:36]: I I was talking to someone the other day who does outsourced developers in Colombia. They're like, well, I've got a commodity solution. There's there's so many people reaching out to people about Outsource developers. Okay. What do you do differently? And they're like, well, we we provide convenient, well educated, and affordable Developers, I'm like, okay. Slow down. You've almost said it. You you're so close. Will Aitken [00:26:59]: You're this close. Affordable. So what's the problem that solves? The fact that our staff today, expensive as heck. You hire the wrong one, even more expensive. Convenient, what's wrong does that solve? The fact that it's really hard to find good developers these days, even harder if you hire the wrong one. And all this time, every moment they're not hiring a developer For a founder who's trying to scale a star or get some funding or has just got some funding, they're they're burning money all that time. And they're like, well educated. Okay. Will Aitken [00:27:32]: So what's the problem with themselves? Like like, they're so close to it, but they're so focused on, like, what's good about it. They don't realize that there's There's there's there's what's wrong with the way that people are doing it today? And that person thought they had a commodity situation when I told them that, like, fireworks were like, oh, Celeste Berke [00:27:46]: fuck. Like, questioning my whole life right now. Will Aitken [00:27:48]: Yeah. Like like, he was, like, show shocked. I was like, because I get those emails about outsourced developers in in in Colombia. And I've never seen one that said, hey. I noticed that you're a founder. A lot of founders struggle with, like, Trying to find people like, trying to find the right people. They know it's too expensive to hire a developer, but they're worried that when they hire someone from Colombia, they're gonna be rubbish. But, again, the educated part. Will Aitken [00:28:16]: Right? So, like, that's when you start to find these problems and solutions. And in prospecting, you can only assume when you get to the discovery, the demo, and everything like that, we ask real good questions to uncover for the prospecting, you have to make a hypothesis. That's kind of what I'm trying to teach people now. Celeste Berke [00:28:29]: Love that. I'm I'm super sick excited to support you. I know that our team is a huge fan of you, not only on your online persona, but that you've arrived at this place of trying to be a change agent of bad behavior. And like you said, it's not a process. Like, if a coach teaches you how to run a 5 k and they tell you to turn your feet out and you're running with your feet out the whole time. You're not improving, but you still think you're doing the work and you're checking off the box. You're not going to get to that end result because you're probably gonna end up in pain and you're gonna hurt yourself and you're gonna I have poor form, all that stuff. So doing it poorly is probably worse than doing nothing at all, but you're taking this huge risk on yourself in order to amplify this cry for help that is out there that we have to change What we are doing because it something really bad is going to happen. Celeste Berke [00:29:29]: There's going to be a breaking point with companies where Will Aitken [00:29:34]: would argue it's already been happening for some time now. The one thing I will say that's very frustrating, in this past couple weeks, I've realized how little A lot of folks actually care about their job doing it well. How Celeste Berke [00:29:48]: A little bit louder for those in the back. Will Aitken [00:29:51]: Like, I am shocked that like, they don't I I don't know if it's checked out or burned out or what it might be, But, like, people Celeste Berke [00:30:01]: I think it's also the lack of lack of consequence is what I'm finding. Will Aitken [00:30:07]: The the consequence are here. We're seeing that. We're seeing these these these teams, these huge layoffs, these people missing targets. Celeste Berke [00:30:12]: Right. But the people who are Will Aitken [00:30:14]: okay to fail. Celeste Berke [00:30:15]: The people are getting laid off are the people who are doing the day to day. Right? There's Will Aitken [00:30:20]: Yeah. The ICs. Celeste Berke [00:30:21]: Correct. So when when we're talking, and I've Seen it a lot, especially since is team's win rate of, like, 10%, whatever, 20% on inbound, right, a close rate, decline in sales, weak pipeline. Like, all of these indicators discount 1 company discounting a 100% of the time at 50%. I'm like, why? But there's no Will Aitken [00:30:46]: There's no shame. Celeste Berke [00:30:47]: There's no repercussion. I'm like, you're going to miss your target by 5,000,000 this year. And then and you're increasing by 40% next year, like, on this trajectory. And they're just like, I'll keep going. Like It's I'm just finding it before. Will Aitken [00:31:01]: Like, there's no shame to it, and I think it's because it's become the norm. Okay. Everyone everyone's failing. Alright? It's not just me. If everyone's failing, it's alright. It's kinda like when you're in the test and you're like, oh, I got a 50, but don't worry. Celeste Berke [00:31:14]: There'll be a curve. Will Aitken [00:31:15]: Bob over there got 44, so Celeste Berke [00:31:17]: I Yeah. Will Aitken [00:31:17]: I'm not lost. Celeste Berke [00:31:18]: And they'll probably be, like, a curve. So really I got, like, a 90. Will Aitken [00:31:22]: Yeah. Yeah. It's on a curve. Everyone's failed except for, you know, the 1 person who's actually doing things right over there. And you're like, well, they're just they're just lucky. No. Come on. Be accountable. Will Aitken [00:31:34]: Be ashamed. Want to do better. Own your stuff. The things we spoke about earlier, we have to own it at every level of the way. If you're a sales rep, if you're a sales leader, if you're a company founder. You're an owner. Even if you work in marketing Celeste Berke [00:31:49]: Even if you're a Will Aitken [00:31:50]: you need to own it. Celeste Berke [00:31:51]: Or a board member. Will Aitken [00:31:54]: Own it like it's your house. You would be ashamed if your house had windows falling off and, like, it was cold inside, and your kids were shivering themselves to sleep. This is your life. This is your thing. Own it. Make it yours. Be proud of it. Celeste Berke [00:32:09]: This is where I take my yeti and I just drop There. See? 1 of my awards fell. Will Aitken [00:32:20]: More energy drinks. Celeste Berke [00:32:22]: Last question, because this has been awesome, and I know with that we've gone over is Will Aitken [00:32:28]: Quite right. Celeste Berke [00:32:29]: One sales myth You want to bust. Will Aitken [00:32:43]: I don't wanna upset you. Celeste Berke [00:32:45]: Go ahead. Will Aitken [00:32:47]: Alright. I believe that there is Because of the bad work the other sellers have done, those things we mentioned earlier, the banks, the crappy processes that Completely make buyers feel like they hate sales. People never wanna talk to them. I believe there is a now a a a duty for a lot of sales reps to to give In order to get. And I feel like this can smooth things over in a way that that shows people that you're not like those other people. And and you can ask great questions. Sure. You can be informed, and you can have a hypothesis. Will Aitken [00:33:21]: You can you can you can know the root causes and impacts of their problems. But I believe that you can show someone a product on the 1st call and not mess up your entire sales cycle. And in fact, doing so can speed up your entire sales cycle because even when you gaps out perfectly And you uncover this massive problem, this root cause, and you know the root cause is so that your solution can come in and is, like, designed to solve. And the impact is so big that they cannot possibly not change and they will need to buy. And and and the status quo cannot go on any longer, and you've done all your great work. You uncovered that. Because of the size of buying teams and the risk aversion, the fact that 10 people need to be involved in, like, every sale even when it's, like, a 5 figure deal. Right? Like, a 10 gauge deal, but, like, don't need to involve ops since, like, guy guys, it's it's $10,000. Will Aitken [00:34:12]: Like, I could personally spend $10,000. Like, what your your million you're like a $50,000,000 business why you weren't anyway, regardless, I they they go, okay. This is all great, but before I involve other people in my team, I want to see it myself. And I believe by by by just showing them a little bit of the peak behind the camona. I'm not talking about the whole thing. Yeah. But, like, if they've told you that, hey, my problem is this and this, you just go Screen share. Bang. Will Aitken [00:34:36]: Bang. Sound like it solves it? Great. Now we can have a demo, and you can feel comfortable inviting all your team. So sounds fair. Despite the fact what it says in chapter chapter, let me see. Chapter the demo. But it get Page 1, chapter 11 of gaps selling Of my copy that is not signed by Kean. It's signed by Rachel, which I would argue is better. Will Aitken [00:35:04]: I I'm okay giving a demo sooner. Celeste Berke [00:35:07]: Do you believe If Ken would have said, at times, you can at times, a a Slight peep into the products on the 1st call is warranted. What do people hear? Yes. What do people hear? Will Aitken [00:35:26]: They hear Every time. Celeste Berke [00:35:28]: I can demo on the 1st demo on the 1st call. Will Aitken [00:35:30]: Right? That's permission. Every time. Yes. And this is so very true as well because sales reps who have a process Oh, good. Sales reps who know that their processes is is gonna work most of the time, but there are times we have to go off process, those are the folks who win. The folks who know Celeste Berke [00:35:46]: Yes. Will Aitken [00:35:47]: It's not a one size fits all, and sometimes you deal with someone who's come on, who is angry, who is being treat like that, and is like, And you need to you need to sometimes mirror them where they're at a little bit to match them where they're at. And that that's that's, I think Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:36:00]: Affecting. I think the dip the differentiation is This is talking about establishing a behavior, a foundation that can then be grown from because what we've seen and and I'm sure with your clients as Well, it is you you gotta start with the crawl. Right? And you're talking about individuals who are walking and running who can Yes. In and out of that. And absolutely, I remember going through my training and seeing an a the AE that we had at the time on a on a discovery call. Say, Keenan's gonna kill me for this, and he showed something in relation to the conversation, and it was totally appropriate. But you're talking about someone who is it is this at an elevated status Yeah. With their skill set. Celeste Berke [00:36:48]: So I While I understand that myth, I'm I'm in support with the caveat of Will Aitken [00:36:56]: Yeah. There there's a book out there, and and we're gonna finish off this be the finishing note because we're way over. But I had so much fun to last, so thanks so much. Alright. Celeste Berke [00:37:03]: So, I mean, you're just, like, Will Aitken [00:37:05]: I just have so much more respect for you now, and I just know you Celeste Berke [00:37:08]: do your brain anyway. Will Aitken [00:37:09]: But I Celeste Berke [00:37:10]: Likewise. Likewise. Will Aitken [00:37:11]: I've had so much fun. But there's a book out there that I read last year because I set myself a chance to read, like, 50 sales books. I didn't hit that goal. I read, like, 26, which is still quite a lot and still Reigned supreme. But the point is I read a book, and it was about selling your way. And I think that can be that can be really good advice For those folks who are running, I do believe that when you start, you need to have that, like, those those rails to learn. You you earn that right To know when the process is broken. When you start, if you if you are to find against the people who are trying to teach you and do know what's best for you, assuming they do know what's best for you because man, just don't. Will Aitken [00:37:50]: Let's be real. By being a pain in the butt and going, I know better. Oh, no. I'm gonna sell my way. You're actually hurting yourself. But once you've earned that right passage, I think that's when you start to see, okay. I've been here before, and I know what mistake I made last time, so now I'm gonna Celeste Berke [00:38:03]: Yeah. Agree. Agree. It's time in the seat. It's like a parent when your child begins to walk and you're there with, like, the hands hovering a little bit. Right? Like, I got these guardrails up, and Then you ease into a little bit, and they start to move on on their own. Have you read have you read this? Will Aitken [00:38:23]: The Dip by Seth Godin. No. I have read a couple of Seth Godin. Celeste Berke [00:38:26]: But look how little it is. Will Aitken [00:38:28]: So small. Such a little book. Celeste Berke [00:38:30]: Oh, good. Will Aitken [00:38:31]: If I had have read a if I had just read books that size last year, I would've hit my goal. But every now and again, the one just hits you at 550 pages. Celeste Berke [00:38:37]: No. This is, like Will Aitken [00:38:38]: Dale Dale Carnegie likes to use the words from 18th century as well. Celeste Berke [00:38:42]: No. 70 Will Aitken [00:38:42]: came for Celeste Berke [00:38:43]: reading well. 5. But I think you and I have been at this time. Right? You're at this dip this point where you want to give up, and it's like, This is this is when it starts to get good. So every year, this is a good little reminder of, like, don't don't give up. This is the cliff. Like, you're Will Aitken [00:39:01]: quiet right now. Celeste Berke [00:39:01]: You're almost there. But I do love that. Selling your way. Thank you. Thank you. Will Aitken [00:39:05]: Yeah. Okay. I I think it's a good book for experienced sellers, but I do would not recommend it to a new seller because they would get totally the wrong idea. That one is sell without selling out by, Andy Paul. Celeste Berke [00:39:14]: Okay. Oh, Andy Paul. Yeah. Will Aitken [00:39:17]: Yeah. Yeah. You know. Celeste Berke [00:39:19]: So Will Aitken [00:39:19]: that was the name of the podcast guy. Celeste Berke [00:39:21]: We've reached a couple of messages. Will Aitken [00:39:24]: I read that. I found myself nodding along going, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if I had given this book to me 2 years ago, you would have screwed me big time. You know what I mean? It's a book for someone who Who has earned the right to to to to to to have autonomy, I guess. Celeste Berke [00:39:41]: I love that. Well, tell us a little one synopsis. Where can people find you? What are what are you currently offering? Will Aiken dot Will Aitken [00:39:53]: Oh, sorry. This is by yourself. Okay. Yeah. So my name is Will Aiken. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on TikTok If you're onto into that, you find me on YouTube these days making woodworking projects, nothing to do with sales. Celeste Berke [00:40:03]: I saw the desk. Will Aitken [00:40:04]: Will. I saw him. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Still here, and it's it's still 1 piece and still flat, which is better than anything else I've made out of wood. My coffee table upstairs is, like, Warped in this holes and the the wood for anyway. But it's Will Aitken. Will Aitken [00:40:18]: That's a I t k e n. It's not Atkins. If you call me Will Atkins, I will I will be personally offended. So there you go. Celeste Berke [00:40:25]: And And Will Aitken [00:40:26]: also you go to willakin.com Yes. And buy some some good merch. If you're on YouTube right now, look at this. Celeste Berke [00:40:31]: Email finds you well. Will Aitken [00:40:33]: I hope this email finds you well, plus a myriad of other silly tales T shirts. Celeste Berke [00:40:37]: Well, I loved it. Thank you so much for our time together. Individuals Can find you online, follow along with content, and also stay tuned for what you are about to do in 2024, which is give us a little peek behind the curtain, the day in the life of a founder led founder led sales. Right? And what it's like to hear those noes, be hung up on, but also share some wins and funny accolades along the the way. So thank you so much. It's been a pleasure sharing and learning about your journey. We will see you on LinkedIn. Will Aitken [00:41:09]: Thank you.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Hello. Hello. It is Celeste Berke Knisely here on The Sales Edge Podcast. Super excited to welcome the lady of LinkedIn, a female who is out there advocating for other women in sales and marketing. I'm so excited to to interview you today and hear your story, Ashley. Ashley, tell us a little bit about what's been going on in your role. Well, first of all, if you're listening, you won't be able to see her T shirt. If you watch this on YouTube, you will. Celeste Berke [00:00:27]: It says, I hope this email finds you well. That's a whole another topic that I'm sure you're diving into, but please let's stop using. I hope this email finds you well. I actually wrote back to someone the other day, like, it did not find me well. I didn't respond, but I love those, so tell me about what's going on in your world, Ashley. Ashley Coghill [00:00:47]: Yes, so I am in a unique spot right now. I've been in sales for 11, 12 years, at least tech sales, a long time, and I just recently took probably my longest time away that was not maternity leave. So I'm coming off about a month and a half of of time off and I'm starting a new role in a week ish, so Very different for me. Usually, I'm hustle hustle, so this is great, but in my downtime, I actually rejoined a roller derby league. So I've been playing roller derby is what I've been doing in the past couple of weeks besides the podcast and all of that good stuff. But Celeste Berke [00:01:24]: Yeah. So your podcast when I pinged you the other day, I was listening to your podcast with Samantha McKenna. Always such a pleasure to hear what she has to say about showing me you know me. It can go not just about sales, but dating as well Yep. And with our spouses. Like, show me, know me by listening to what I say and also those nice things that we allude to with our spouse, so I think those words resonate beyond the sales org. So roller derby, how long have you been doing that? Ashley Coghill [00:01:57]: I started skating in 2009, I believe, So pretty long time. I skated pretty competitively for a long time and then had a couple breaks, had some babies, did all of that, and then COVID actually shut roller derby down for 2 years everywhere. And then moving to Portland, which I just recently did, the biggest roller derby team in the world is located here, so it's a very large league, and I decided to transfer in while I was in this transition. So just actually made a home team, so I actually get to be on a team within the league, which is really exciting. So dang, Celeste Berke [00:02:35]: I've never seen roller derby in action. I always thought it was, like, pretty badass, especially on the women's team. I'm forgetting the movie the Ashley Coghill [00:02:43]: With it? Celeste Berke [00:02:45]: Yes. Yes. So I did see that. That's about as close to roller derby. Well, it now makes sense, the skates that you have on your LinkedIn profile. So you've been in and around the sales space, probably very similar parallels to roller derby with, like, the ups and the downs, the opponents, your competition in sales. You don't know what to expect, a lot of preparation, then it's go time. Did you fumble? Not like a football, but Ashley Coghill [00:03:10]: Fumble your body. Celeste Berke [00:03:11]: Over your skate, and you fell. Do you have bruises? You have to pick yourself back up. So as you've navigated this sales roller coaster, we'll call it, what has stood the test of time for you? Kind of your sales edge, your it factor that helps you to stand out. Ashley Coghill [00:03:29]: Yeah. So I think I have a little bit of a unique, not that unique anymore, background where I started in retail sales before I moved into tech, and working retail hours really sucks. If anybody's ever done it, that's the worst. I was selling eyeglasses. I was an optician. Moving into tech where I was able to work from home sometimes or remote or all of those things, I was so grateful for it and I think some of that, like, diverse background where you have that hunger, because I was also making crap money compared to what you can make in this world of sales. That that's kind of the edge because you're like, Well, I could be slanging glasses and making 35 k a year instead of what I'm doing now. This is so much better. Ashley Coghill [00:04:16]: I am not going to let this opportunity pass me by, but I think, truly, at the core of it is that every time I'm in a sales role, I have to feel like I'm helping people. So I have to figure out, like, what is the thing that's actually making someone's life better? When I come into a conversation believing that I'm helping someone instead of feeling like I'm selling them something or trying to trick them. It's always just a better way to feel about yourself. I think just makes everything better for everyone, so it was kind of 2 answers. Celeste Berke [00:04:48]: Yeah, I love that we talk often on our team about really detaching from the outcome, and a lot of sellers I know are so tied to what's my quota, where am I, gotta get the sale, this is what I have to close, and showing up as Riley had said on one of our interviews with this commission breath. I just did a webinar about it last week as well about this detaching from the outcome. I actually broke it down when you're in sales, showing up to station ensuring that their life or the conversation is enriched and they're able to walk away with value and you shared your expertise whether they ever do business with you or not. So it sounds like you're in that same vein, and where did that switch comm from trying to sell to I'm here to help. When when did you think you arrived at that place? Ashley Coghill [00:05:39]: I don't think I ever wanted to be a salesperson. So my negative connotation like, the negative mind thought process of what sales was when I was in retail sales. I was embarrassed that I had a quota when I was selling glasses because I was well, I'm supposed to be helping people pick out the right frame or, like, actually be able to see. Right? And it felt a little slimy to also have a quota and be, like, well, if I don't sell these glasses to this person that I'm not gonna hit my number. I had to kind of think about that as, like, what am I doing that's gonna help these people and selling them these glasses is a good thing because they're gonna be able to see, but when I actually got into tech, Someone had to teach me the idea of the funnel and I had never thought, oh, this is your goal and you go up and you have to put this much in the top. So as I'm learning Salesforce, they're teaching me about the funnel and they're telling me how I should be on calls. I was getting on the phone and I immediately was like, okay. But how am I helping these people? And so I've always done it and it was one of those things where people looked at me like, what do you mean you're going with the app? This is how I'm helping you. Ashley Coghill [00:06:47]: So it wasn't really a switch. I think it was something that I had to do in my brain to feel okay with the fact that I was a salesperson, because it took me several years to actually feel like, I wanted to be a salesperson. It was a fake it till you make it kind of thing, and then when I finally realized that actually helping people is what sales is. That's when I was able to accept that I was a salesperson and feel proud of it, instead of being like, well, I'm in sales. So I think it came from trying to somehow lie to myself that sales was a good thing, But accidentally stumbling into what we're really supposed to be about anyway, which might be a little backwards. I think some people go into sales thinking, like, we have to trick people. Yeah. And I just that never sat well with me, so I just didn't do that even if that was the expectation. Celeste Berke [00:07:38]: Yeah me me neither. It's you know interesting my background I started in nonprofit and then I got into sales because I saw all these people in sales, and I thought, well, I wanna be taken seriously. Let me get into a sales job, and then people would say, oh, you're in sales? And I would do the same, like, Well, I'm not really, right? It's so gross. And then you arrive at this place of sales doesn't have to be icky, like, we have to stop assigning this putting all salespeople in a bucket that just like your shirts. Ashley Coghill [00:08:14]: Thanks, Will Aiken. Celeste Berke [00:08:16]: Right. Shout out to Will Aiken in his merch. It is when these behaviors are forced upon people where it's not natural, and we're stepping outside of our natural abilities that, yeah, we're having to fake it and doesn't feel natural to us nor comfortable, and the prospect can probably feel that too. And it it's funny, Rachel, who's my coach in gap selling because I'm a partner. I also get my own coaching every single week and my own 1 on 1. So it's a lot of business development too. And a couple of weeks ago, she was like, would you stop with your stage presence on sales calls? And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you go into this, like I'm presenting. I'm in corporate. Celeste Berke [00:08:59]: This is what I am because of this this. And I was like, I am? And it's funny because the other day, I went, and my husband got me a gift certificate for my birthday. So I was like, I'm out. I'm gonna have some mom time. I never do this. And the ladies were, like, you're so funny, and I was just being myself. And I realized, like, that's what she's talking about on sales calls, like, stop being so buttoned up. People can see through that. Celeste Berke [00:09:26]: And I think that's what you're alluding to, this place of your showing up as your authentic self, really trying to help someone and detaching from the outcome. Ashley Coghill [00:09:34]: Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:09:35]: Awesome. Well, superpowers come in a lot of forms, and I think women carry those, especially those who have tiny little children around as well. You mentioned this remote shift, and I think there's a lot of myths of more work gets done in the office. How has that shift to remote work from a quality of life standpoint for you. Ashley Coghill [00:10:03]: Yeah. So I purposefully one of my law of attraction things That I was focused on when I started in tech was work from home. I wanted remote, so I've been doing remote work for a lot longer than some of the people who started after COVID. I was remote fully remote before that with one short stint where I attempted to work in an office right after having my daughter go. So remote was something that was really important to me, but I'm also very extroverted. And when I got my 1st remote job, they said, hey. Just want you to know, like, we're fully remote. Nobody is required to go into the office. Ashley Coghill [00:10:39]: You might be sad because you're not gonna have a lot of people to talk to if you do come into the office, which for me was a good thing because being extroverted means I get very distracted when there are people in the office to talk to. So It's better for me to be home if I want to truly get the work done. That short stint where I was actually commuting down town. I was in Chicago at the time taking the red line train 45 minute into and I had an infant, so I would have to drop her off, hop on the train, walk downtown, get to the office, and I would get there. I was never the first one in the office, because I had to drop her off. Right? Like, it's not like I could get there at 7 AM, and it was crazy because I would get there and I'd be like, alright. Let's get to work, but people weren't actually doing anything. They got there early, but they weren't doing anything, And there'd be maybe an hour where people are on the phones, you could tell that they were working, but most of the time they're hanging out in the kitchen. Ashley Coghill [00:11:34]: My male coworkers that sat on other side either side of me would go to the gym for an hour and a half at lunchtime every single day. I wouldn't do that because I'm like, I gotta get my work done so I can leave and go get my daughter because I have to get her before 5 o'clock or else I'm not even gonna Right. See her. So and then I would be looked at, like, she's leaving at 4:30 again because it was the only way I was gonna get where I needed to go. And that little brief like, I left that job purposefully to go back to a remote role because it just did not work with my lifestyle. I think that that experience was very telling for me, because I thought maybe I am missing out on something by not going into the office and I can I can clearly say that's not true, because it was horrible for my my lifestyle? It was terrible for me. I was stressing all the time, I was rushing all the time and when I was in the office, it was still, like, felt like I wasn't getting anything done. So remote work, I promise you, if you've got people that you're forcing into the office, you're not getting as much work them. Ashley Coghill [00:12:42]: It's just not it's just not a thing, and if you've got parents on your team, it's just ridiculous. It's really weird to me that having people come in at 7 a. M. And leave at 6 o'clock, but, take hours in the middle of the day to go to the gym and go have lunch and do all of these things. That's more okay than a mom who gets there Soon as she possibly can, works her butt off the whole day, leaves, and then probably logs in and does stuff again after her kids go to bed, like but the optics of that, they thought that guy was being more present versus the woman and that's very not okay. Right? Celeste Berke [00:13:21]: So Totally. Yeah. I'm I'm definitely in that camp with you. I remember doing that, right, going back at 13 weeks and then you're pumping, and you're constantly worried about that and sitting in meetings. And, yes, if if the clock is ticking, you're sitting in traffic. And are you gonna get there? Are you gonna start charged because you're not picking up the child. You're in this constant state of high alert all of the time, which isn't a great place to be in if you're also trying to have work output. So kudos to you on knowing that that's something that you need not only for yourself but also for your family and that you can be just as productive, if not in the framework that fits your life but that also shows your employer. Celeste Berke [00:14:08]: It doesn't really matter what the hours logs are. It is about the output and the productivity and giving back to the team and being part of it, and I've seen a lot of employers make make a miss on that. So, hopefully, as this launches, you've selected a new place and you announce that, and we can celebrate that that you're still going strong and working remote, into 20 24. So the last question I asked guests, so I think it's so interesting. There's so much sales advice out there on what we should do, what not to do, and then it changes when new tech comes out or, you know, an influencer drops something. What is a sales myth that you'd love to support or bust that over the years was told to you and you've thought I'm not so sure about that anymore. Ashley Coghill [00:14:58]: Yeah, That's a really good question. I think one of my biggest pet peeves, and this is maybe a sales myth, is that everyone has to start as an SDR and then be an AE and then go into leadership or whatever that looks like. I do not believe that every single person should be an see our I don't believe every single person's gonna be good at being an SDR, and I also believe that people could be really great at AEs if they're not good at SDRs. And I think it all depends on the role, the company, the product, the segment, and I think it's really annoying when influencers or whoever comes out and says, well, you have to have full cycle or you have to have SDRs or you have to have your SDRs report to marketing or, like, all of these different things that they're lumping into one spot where it's that's just not the way it works. We need to adapt to what works for our prospects, our ICP, like, what we're actually selling and to whom. If we're selling an enterprise, very true enterprise thing, an SDR is probably gonna have a very hard time jumping into that And doing a really, really good job versus if you have a super short transactional sales, taking an enterprise seller Who's a closer and popping them in there? They're gonna have a really hard time, and I think that it's a miss to pay them all all these, like, oh, well, an enterprise seller is worth so much more than a transactional seller. I don't think that's true. I think that they are just totally different skill sets, And I'm sick of everyone getting lumped into buckets and not being allowed to try different things. Ashley Coghill [00:16:29]: If you fail at being an SDR, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be a killer closer. You. If you fail at SMB, like, super quick wins, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be amazing at enterprise. I think it's It's doing us a disservice as an industry to tell somebody, well, maybe sales isn't for you because you weren't good at these SMB. It's a totally different skill set To sell transactionally than it is to do to nurture someone for over a year to get them to sell. I think People who can do both are very rare, but it's awesome. And I just think it's unfair that you like, I think that somebody who's an amazing SMB Sellers should be allowed to continue to do that and still continue their career and be really successful and make a ton of money without ever feeling Pressured to become a manager or go into enterprise sales. I just don't think that that's the way that it should be. Ashley Coghill [00:17:21]: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's what you're going for with miss, Celeste Berke [00:17:23]: but totally totally on onboard with you there. I remember my 1st sales job. I didn't have management experience. I'd never sold anything. I'd never been in the industry. I went through 7 interviews, got the job, and it set the precedent for that company that somebody doesn't have to check all those boxes in order to excel. And when we are checking the boxes as an organization versus looking at it as like a puzzle. Right? How are we fitting people together? What are we lacking in 1 and constantly massaging that, finding better success Verzuz. Celeste Berke [00:17:53]: Like you said, a lot of people posting. Lots of times, it's men. Sorry. I'm just gonna say it, but I don't see a lot of women out there posting. This is the path that you have to go. And especially now when we're trying to elevate women's voices, there are nontraditional ways in order for you to get into sales leadership. To be an AE. Doesn't mean you have to excel here or won some award or crush quota. Celeste Berke [00:18:16]: I mean, there are amazing sales leaders out there that don't have great track records in selling. And that's okay because there's so many lessons learned in the losses and the opportunities than in always having a win. So I agree. I don't think trophies matter. Just like in roller derby, you probably learn a lot from every time you fall and have a misstep where you check someone. I don't know if it's called checking. Ashley Coghill [00:18:42]: I'm sure Celeste Berke [00:18:42]: you when you're leaning your body into them, you're learning all of those nuances, but you learn a lot through the losses, not always the wins, and sometimes that is often overlooked. So thank you so much for shedding light onto that. Any final words, tell us your podcast. Where can people find it? What can they expect from it? Ashley Coghill [00:19:05]: Yep. So Ashley and Katrine's infinite revenue playlist. It is me and my cohost, Katrine Reddin. It's sponsored by Commsor. So big fan of them and Mac Reddin who also, does this for us without any expectation of ROI to produce the podcast. The whole point is elevating women in revenue, so sales, marketing, success, Anybody who's touching money, who's a woman in in business, basically, that's who we wanna talk to, and our idea is that by interviewing people like Sam McKenna and then interviewing people who maybe don't have that that huge following but have something to say. We can get those voices out there so people can hear from women who are Amazing and learn from them and it's kind of fun because we do have that little twist where everyone picks the walk up Song. So there's actual playlist. Ashley Coghill [00:19:54]: So you can find the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and then the actual playlist is also on Spotify if you wanna hear all of the women's walk up songs compiled together, which is it's a pretty good it's a pretty good playlist. Celeste Berke [00:20:07]: Yeah. Definitely. I love that. And I was thinking the other day, I have to hype myself. I'm an extrovert, so I have to, like, pop myself on when I'm, like, going on camera or delivering a webinar. This year, I did a webinar for 500 people, you get anxiety over that, so I like to play the eye of the tiger song. Nice. Ashley Coghill [00:20:27]: Like, talk to anybody speak to that one Celeste Berke [00:20:30]: yet. Yeah. That would be that would be it. Or, you know, we're we're huge into the frozen playlist as well over here with my toddler, so that doesn't as much pump me up, but see my little one get pumped up. I so appreciate your time. Definitely, people can connect with you on LinkedIn. You have a lot to say over there elevating women's voices, and I'm so excited for this next chapter and to stay in touch. Thank you so much for being our guest. Ashley Coghill [00:20:57]: Thanks for having me.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. It is Celeste back with another episode of the Sales Edge Podcast. I'm super excited to welcome Mason Cosby onto the show today. I have been following Mason, for a while and was formally introduced by I know some of the listeners are gonna be like, Riley? Was it Riley again? Riley? Yes. Riley, the unicorn of LinkedIn, and was so excited when Mason made the decision to go out on his own and really hone in on his area of expertise. So let's hear Mason's story. Mason, kick us off. Celeste Berke [00:00:38]: Tell us what you're doing. Mason Cosby [00:00:41]: Yeah. Well, first, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Celeste, I'm excited to speak directly to a sales audience because I I kinda sit at that intersection between marketing and sales. I spend a lot of time speaking to marketing and don't spend as much time getting Speak to sellers. So really the core of what I'm doing is helping companies build account based marketing programs without the $200,000 tech stack. And I'm a firm believer in the concept of the crawl, walk, run approach to ABM. The challenge that most people experience is Nobody likes crawling. Mason Cosby [00:01:13]: Everybody wants to immediately run. They see the signage of new technology. They see if you go and invest in this Tool, you'll get a 700,000,000 return on your investment. And it's like, there are a lot of situations and factors that helped Get that return on investment. It likely actually wasn't the tool this much. It was probably their strategy. But, again, tools are shiny. They promised, generally speaking, a quick fix when in reality, you need the right foundation. Mason Cosby [00:01:40]: So where I'm focused is helping Marketing and sales teams first nail the handoff between marketing and sales through what I call activation plays. And once you've got your hand off nailed down, we then can go and build a more repeatable evergreen ABM type program. So that's what I'm doing, helping out quite a few clients Build out those programs. Celeste Berke [00:02:03]: So I love how you said you're at this handoff between marketing and sales. If anybody here Seizis on LinkedIn. You're probably chuckling to yourself like, oh, the love hate relationship that marketing and sales have together and, really, who is this go between of what happens when sales turns things over to marketing. Is sales pointing the finger at marketing? Is marketing pointing the finger Sales, and you have identified this sweet spot. And so tell us a little bit about making that decision of going out on your own because a lot of people listening are also entrepreneurs, or they're in this space of how did he make that decision to leave a job, right, as a w two employee to go out on your own. Mason Cosby [00:02:47]: Yes. I mean, I I've been building scrappy ABM in a much smaller capacity for about 9 months. And I just had a couple of clients. I did decent work for those clients, and, you know, that was all I expected it to be. And then I launched a podcast called Scrappy ABM and started to talk through the ideas and the concepts. And I threw up kind of a 1 page website, which, At this moment, website is still a single page where you can book a call. And, when I made one post on LinkedIn that announced, I haven't heard of this podcast. I've got this website if you wanna book time. Mason Cosby [00:03:24]: I just expected a couple more clients to come in that I'd like potentially help. And in about a month and a half, ended up closing $300,000 in revenue. And what that showed to me is, okay, this is the right message at the right time. I really need to think True. Because even even in the concept of, like, what I had launched with Scrappy, I mean, there weren't clear packages. There wasn't clear pricing. I was just like, you can Work with me on something. So, honestly, a lot of these discovery calls were like, why did why did you book a call? Like, what are you doing here? Like, I I I have a it's a concept. Mason Cosby [00:04:03]: It's like a problem. And they're like, I know, but we need to solve the problem. And you talk about this this playbook that you've run before. Can you help us do that? And the playbooks kept coming back to, again, these concepts of activation plays. And the more I thought through, what are the core reasons that ABM fails, And what's what's the market doing, and where is there a gap in the market? I really found the gap is helping set up the right foundation, helping people do a crawl in the crawl, walk, run approach. Because, again, like, if you think about the ABM space, I don't know of another service provider that is dedicated to serving that crawl space, to building the right foundation, to helping someone take those first initial steps into actually building a sustainable program. So, again, it was really market feedback of I pitched out more of the problem as opposed to the solution Right. And said, like, this problem really hurts, and, like, here's a couple of ideas on how you can solve it. Mason Cosby [00:04:58]: And the market came through and said, I completely resonate with that and would like your help solving it. Yeah. So that's how I made the decision. Celeste Berke [00:05:05]: And I love how you're talking about problems over product. The problem came first. You didn't even know what the product was gonna be because you have this whole suite of experience and ways that you can help. And you and I talked prior as an entrepreneur, get shiny object syndrome as well. We see money dangling in front of Face, and we wanna grab it. And that takes us further away from staying honed in on. This is how I can help people, and these are the problems I solve. So We are all team problem centric approach here, product second, and it sounds like that is resonating with potential clients as well. Celeste Berke [00:05:39]: And I know having a little one, and you also have a very little one, this whole stage of We want, as parents, to get through the hard times. The sleepless nights and the crying and the colic and the teething, and, I mean, that's coming down the pipe for you. And to get to this place where our kids are grown up, they love how you are saying, I am helping teams with this foundation, this crawl approach, because everybody wants this ideal future state. But if we don't build it and we don't focus on the Skills and the Foundations. You're not gonna get there, but you're gonna spend a lot of money trying. So thank thank you so much for sharing that. And it's Funny because I am delivering a webinar later today. And we're constantly talking about what problems do you solve, what problems do you solve, and individuals don't know the problems that they solve. Celeste Berke [00:06:31]: They talk very, like, technical problem, like a broken process or tool. And when I was talking with Rachel, who's our general manager, she was saying, How are you going to teach someone how to do it? And it's that same concept that you have of this crawl approach of Someone can tell you, go crawl, go walk, go do this. But until you're saying, no. This is step 1, and this is step 2. This is how you do it. This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. You're not going to build that solid foundation. Celeste Berke [00:07:01]: So I I love that you're in this place of knowing, and I think that leads right into the the question I love to ask guesses. From a scrappy marketer. What is your sales edge? Mason Cosby [00:07:15]: We talked about this a little bit, I mean, I'm just really bullish on this problem. And it's such a foundational problem that people resonate with that, like, if you've again, essentially, like, if you've tried ABM and it didn't work and then you hear any of the content that they put out, you're like, oh, yeah. I get it. Because, essentially, all of my products directly tie into research backed proven problems that people experience, and it's all the reasons ABM fails. So there's that component. And the other component is I think I truly am a market of 1 in the sense that I don't know of any other service providers that are dedicated and so bullish On no. This is just take, like, step 1. Again, most people, when they think about ABM, they're talking about the, Like, large scale, we've built this program that delivers 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars in pipeline, and I'm like, cool. Mason Cosby [00:08:08]: How do you source the first Deal. And I'm really bullish on just making sure that we actually think through not step 100, But, like, step 1, step 2, and step 3. And I'm very comfortable and very confident saying, I can help you nail the first 3 steps, And then that's where our engagement's likely going to end. And you're gonna get graduated to a larger agency that can do more of the run and the sprint, or You're going to be self sustaining on your own because, surprise, surprise, people are actually really intelligent once they've actually gotten something rolling and they're pretty intuitive. The greatest challenge for everybody when it comes to these kinds of programs is how do we essentially break our organization intentionally? Because ABM is organizational change. So how do we intentionally break our organization and then rebuild it right? Once you've rebuilt it right, you can typically just run from there, but it's the hard part of, like, I have to break the organization for a little bit. Celeste Berke [00:09:10]: Yeah. Mason Cosby [00:09:10]: So I'm just I think that's my sales edge. It's just, like, knowing the problems that I solve, solving those problems, And kind of being a market of 1 because I don't know to be all serving this space as a dedicated business. Celeste Berke [00:09:24]: Alright. So Love that you're staying in this lane and also this whole concept about change management. Companies hate change. Individuals hate change. It is so difficult. But when we see that there's a problem and we know that there's this huge chasm, if we don't do something, are we willing to stay in the state where we are, Orr Is the Problem Big Enough That We Attack It, Even If That Means That It Causes Some Change TO Our Organization. Something else that I want to talk about is this concept of these big myths that are out there. You know, we work with a lot of companies who will say, No. Celeste Berke [00:10:03]: I don't have a problem. Like, our win rates are 10%. Okay. Well, what were they last year? They were 15. And then we dive into, Alright. How much is in the pipeline? You know? Where is this coming from? Inbound, outbound. We really start to break it down, and teams Sometimes aren't willing to look outside of the discovery, the sales process, the sales pipeline. And this is where I think your services come in because sometimes it's broken, like, way deep down before Ford even gets to the sales team from a marketing level. Celeste Berke [00:10:37]: So what is something, a challenge that you hear, or a myth that you wanna bust? Mason Cosby [00:10:41]: For starters, 10 to 15% close rates on your pipeline. There's definitely a marketing or a product problem at that point because that means your pipeline isn't The right people. So, yeah, you probably actually have a marketing or a product problem unless your sellers are just completely in that. Right. As far as an actual myth to bust, again, I I think it comes back to just this core concept of, Like, if you are trying to build a true revenue organization and a true revenue program, A lot of what we've done in the past is list a bunch of MQLs. An SDR team can then just go prospect into those MQLs that have actually no Real intent, and then we'll convert those into pipeline at 1%. But, oh, by the way, The conversion of 1% to pipeline, what's the actual pipeline conversion on those deals? It's it's abysmal. So, Again, and especially in our current environment, I think we're just both marketing and sales organizations are becoming organizations of more. Mason Cosby [00:11:48]: And, again, we all know it's quality over quantity, but in the current environment, we're continuing to swing towards quantity. So, again, I'm just in the camp of, Like, the myth to bust is identify not an MQL model and an MQL score. That is they read 30 blogs. We should give them a call. But what are the tangible actions that somebody did that would indicate to us we should reach out to them? So, for example, are you prioritizing outreach to people that have viewed numerous product pages and the pricing page and then bounced off your website. Most organizations today with a basic HubSpot instance can get that information. So, again, that shouldn't be factored into the MQL model. That should be alerted to that contact owner almost instantaneously to say, somebody has viewed these pages. Mason Cosby [00:12:39]: They are in a buying research mode Likely. We can't guarantee it. But it's way more likely that they're buying research mode on your product if they've viewed those specific pages and they bounce off the schedule a call page Then they are reading your blog content. So, again, mapping who we pass over to sales to actual tangible actions and intent as opposed to They opened up enough of our email newsletters to say we should give them a call. Celeste Berke [00:13:07]: The more is more concept He's definitely not working in sales. I think everybody's been on high alert this week with what's happening with emails and and Outbound and what we're going to do. But taking that step back to look at what is going on in my organization, And am I willing as a CMO or a CRO, VP of sales, CEO, am I willing to build this, to take the time to look at the foundations and what's going on in order to seed it for future. Mason Cosby [00:13:40]: CMO, CRO, or CEO. Celeste Berke [00:13:42]: It's this change management piece of is an individual in an organization willing to go down the path of Change in order to set that foundation for future. So what if someone doesn't? What happens in an Mason Cosby [00:13:56]: If you go straight out of You don't have the appropriate foundation. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1, you'll you'll fail, and, I mean, that's pretty Pretty standard. You try something, it fails. And from there, you can either assess, again, oh, we didn't have the appropriate foundation in place. This is where it failed. You can do Mortem. And I actually don't think that's a bad thing because at that point, you're actually fixing specific gaps that are actual known problems. Mason Cosby [00:14:22]: So that may not be a bad thing in the long run. The other thing, though, is if you fail, you may throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, oh, this doesn't work at all. So, again, you may fail. I think the other thing that's worse is you have 1 successful program and campaign that was kind of the shot in the dark that happened to work. And now you've set an expectation of something that should be able to deliver consistently when reality, it wasn't a repeatable program in the 1st place. It was a very fortuitous shot in the dark that may have happened to land a large account, and now you keep trying to hit these results that were never going to be attainable again. And, again, at that point, it's the baby is with the bathwater's not gonna get thrown out because it works. Why isn't it working again? You're just gonna continue to actually run up against a wall, try to figure it out when in reality, you should have set the right foundation. Celeste Berke [00:15:18]: Foundation is everything. And definitely wanna close this out here. You share a lot of great content about what you're doing, problems in an organization, setting that Foundation. What are those indicators? What should someone be looking at? But you're also sharing this amazing journey about being a new dad and and building in public, which is so fun to watch as an entrepreneur. If someone wants to get ahold of you, What would be some leading indicators happening within their organization that if they listen to this, the light bulb moment would be, hey. I need to reach out to Mason in order to have a chat. Mason Cosby [00:15:55]: Yeah. So there are really 2 situations that make the most sense. 1, You serve a very niche specific targeted audience, and you are saying we need to be better at engaging this audience to get them into our pipeline. We should build an account based marketing program, but we don't know where to start. That's a great fit for me. The other is you've tried ABM, and it it didn't work Because of any number of reasons, which likely comes back to wrong strategy, wrong foundation. In that context, if you are bought in philosophically on the concept of But you need help strategically and tactically on the implementation, that's where our team can help. So those are really the core 2 areas in which we'll be able to help client the most. Mason Cosby [00:16:37]: And if you wanna get in contact, there's really 2 main places to reach me. LinkedIn, very active. Mason Cosby, not Crosby. If I were Crosby, I would probably be far richer and a little bit more handsome and Have a far more successful career in the NFL. The other place to reach me is scrappyabm.com. I have a calendar booking link so you can actually book time directly with me. Celeste Berke [00:17:00]: Awesome. Awesome. And I will say if you are also, going to Google and typing, what is ABM, maybe worth a conversation with Mason as well if if if you're wondering, like, what the heck is this, and what does it entail, and what am I missing out on as things continue to change? And I love how you stated it's not about running out and buying the latest in tech and building your tech stack, but really looking at the foundation of how do you propel your business forward, Make A Change. How do you set the teams up for success? And then you really coming in as this go between of sweet spot marketing and sales and playing together nicely in the sale in Sandbox, and now is no better time to start. Well, I appreciate you spending time with us today. I have learned so much. It is a continuous process in our businesses. So while we love to work with teams kind of like MQL through close, we really focus on Discovery and and sales skills and enabling teams to look at deals, but we don't talk about what happens before that. Celeste Berke [00:17:59]: And that's such a great marriage of of where you come in. So for Everybody out there listening, I hope that you've had some great takeaways from Mason. Mason, I look forward to staying connected with you on LinkedIn and seeing what big things come out in 2024. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. Mason Cosby [00:18:15]: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. This is Celeste Burke nicely on The Sales Edge Podcast. I'm really excited for this episode as we are going to talk about a hot topic floating around the Internet and LinkedIn, which is what are we doing with outbound, so I'm excited to have that discussion today with Raul. I'm gonna have you say your last name here in a weekend because I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it justice. Appreciate you being on the show even though it's end of your day in this being. So Raul with Amplemarketlemarket, give us a synopsis of who you are, a little bit about background and also a high level overview of the AMP market. Raul Perdigao [00:00:43]: 100%. Thank you so much. So the name is Raul Perdigao, But you can say Rahul, no problem whatsoever. But funny enough, I started in banking, and I worked in banking for roughly 6 years. But then after that, I found tech, back in the day, you know, NFCs and etcetera. And then I started rolling it into tech. And eventually, I started up working with a lot of startups and services and software as a service. And right now, I have been working on scaling teams, building sales teams For, companies that have been, focusing on hypergrowth at a global scale. Raul Perdigao [00:01:17]: So working a lot with remote teams. This. Lately, I have been privileged to work with AmplemarketlMarket. AmplemarketlMarket is all in all compound solution that covers all of your efforts When it comes to outbound. So we will cover that a little bit from multichannel to how to use your emails properly. And we have been incredible success successful on managing everything top of funnel before it goes into your CRM. Celeste Berke [00:01:44]: Excellent. Well, it's interesting. We were connected through one of your counterparts who actually found me on LinkedIn because I have a podcast and I was putting out content and she found me and we'll be talking about a partnership later as this airs, but I'm curious I always ask guests what is their sales edge, and you and I were talking earlier about you having some insights into what what's happening with this dirty word outbound and your team being prepared for that many years ago. Tell us about what makes you unique? You said you came from banking and then you went into tech, so you've kind of seen it all in this evolution of how in the past couple of years tech has really skyrocketed. What is unique about you in these roles where you're helping shape that hypergrowth. Raul Perdigao [00:02:41]: Mhmm. I was I was really fortunate because I I was able to be on both sides of the barricade, to be honest. I was mentioning to you, I had an experience, Where I was managing a pipeline that was fed by inbound 100%. So I was very fortunate, and people came to me and said like, you No. Like, that's not selling. You know? Like, you're cheating because you're getting the leads from your marketing team that has a huge budget. But then it's really interesting. I the other side as well. Raul Perdigao [00:03:07]: You know, in Amplemarketlemarket, we basically we dog food a lot, so we do a lot of outbound. And a big part of our results, big, big part is effectively driven by outbound. And so we also wanna practice what we preach. And within our demos, when we go and deep dive into the technology, We really wanna make sure that we use what we have built. And our founders, they really went through The not only how to do use the right data, but one of the things that they were really focusing early on early on is how Can we make sure that the message will be delivered? Right? So that's critical here. So really, really early on, the founders were really keen on figuring out Deliverability. You know, like, what effectively makes you escape the spam room? You know, like, how can you get around that? Like, How you should be warming up your mailboxes. Without going into, a lot of tech very details into this, but, you know, like, there's a lot of of Of of points that you really need to account for when you're doing outbound for setting up not only your mailboxes, but all the way up your domains. Raul Perdigao [00:04:14]: All your authentication. A lot of people are starting outbound without doing this. So you really need to go back, sit down with your IT guy or your ops guy, and make sure, Let's double and triple check all the certifications, all the authentications, and making sure that our domain is properly set up. So a lot of times, Even before you do start doing outbound, we can help you. But, like, really, really make sure that You're doing everything on the background even before you start because otherwise, it will not work definitely. Celeste Berke [00:04:46]: So similar to so my husband's an endurance athlete. He's he's always watching the Tour the Tour de France and all of the riders from Spain and from France because he's a huge cyclist as well. A lot of people will put in the effort of, I have the right shoes, I've gone to the doctor, I've had a physical. I've looked at everything. I've had the blood drawn and had labs done, all of those things before you start excessively training. I take my electrolytes before they even step out on the track or get out on the bike. And what I hear you talking about is companies and individuals are so quick to jump on the we're going to mass message everybody, and then they create a lot of noise on social media when things go wrong or there's, you know, boundaries put in place on how much you can email. Right? What's happening to your domain? Because all of that stuff, nobody's talking about the technical side that's not as sexy or fun as all the outbound messaging. Celeste Berke [00:05:49]: So it sounds like you're saying before we run, we need to do all of the prep work on on the back end. Raul Perdigao [00:05:58]: 100%. And, you know, like, coming down to one of the things that you were mentioning, for example, Just thinking about the domains. We engage with a lot of people, and we help a lot of companies that come to us saying that We are not even able to receive emails anymore. So that's, like, a very red line position to be in, like, a very bad spot. But we have people that, you know, like, they are not Getting any type of open rates or even reply rates, obviously. But just why? Because they burned their domain. So just to start with, like, you shouldn't be doing outbound from your main domain. You know, like, make sure like, we are not doing outbound from amplemarket.com because that, we save that to Talk to our investors. Raul Perdigao [00:06:39]: We save that for our founders to use for very official communication. So we have different domains. That's like the 1st step. You know, like, you you need to think, like, if we eventually burn one of these domains, or if it eventually gets flagged Starting February, everyone is very keen on this. You should have a domain setup or a a subdomain or a new one. And within those, you need to set new mailboxes and more. And the thing is you cannot do that in February. Like, you need to do it right now because they will need 2 months to warm up. Raul Perdigao [00:07:13]: Right? So you need to warm up your email. So you're like, I will set it up. In 2 weeks, I'm doing outbound. No. So this is a this is it's really interesting that you brought that up because this is a marathon. Like, outbound is a marathon. It's not like I'll buy it. I will use it tomorrow. Raul Perdigao [00:07:28]: Right? Like, no. No. No. You'll buy it, and you'll start using in 3 months. Right? Because this is an investment. We will work side by side with you. So a lot of times people come to us and say, I want the same results in inbound. Let's shift into outbound. Raul Perdigao [00:07:42]: Well, I have bad news for you. Right? Like, I really have bad news for you, but I have also good advices. Right? Like how to set this up properly. You know, like there's some key functionalities we we have in in in Amplemarketlify Marketing. Like for example, placement tests. Like, basically, we are able to trigger tests weekly on every single mailbox that you use. And even before you use them, we will let you know, Are they landing in spam or not? Or what's the the likelihood of that happening? So you see, like, these type of very specific features leverage a lot of value behind it Because you will maintain this guardrails. Because, again, you you are the manager, but the SDR doesn't care. Raul Perdigao [00:08:24]: They will click and they will Send. They will blast. Right? So you want that, like and there are tools out there that that will alarm, That will trigger those and say, like, hey, don't use this mailbox. Like, use other or use that subdomain because that one is better than this. So these are the type of things that you need to be on top of in, like, Every other day or every single day going through what's happening in your business, and this will secure your continuously performing in outbound. But it's not transparent of that. Right? Like, people don't talk about how hard it is. Celeste Berke [00:08:56]: And who are you finding understands this within an organization that really is your champion for the let's crawl before we run. Who is that persona within an organization. Is it the IT department, or is it someone in sales who who can understand what is 3 or 4 steps down. Raul Perdigao [00:09:19]: Mhmm. That's a great question because it it really varies on the organization. You know, like, we have a lot of very well educated salesperson, working with us that did outbound before. I will say normally, you know, like, the the guardian angels sit in rev ops. Yep. So those are the ones, you know, like maintaining the tools, like, making sure that everything is up Like, everything is controlled. The reports are there. So I will say, normally, those are the ones that we really help directly. Raul Perdigao [00:09:47]: And they will set up the guardrails for The the outbound teams, you know, like the AEs to make sure that everything is is is performing as it should. But it definitely sits within management, so people that have a little bit more time in their day to go through all of these reports and understand, like, Wait a minute. Like, open rates are so bad this week. Moments. Right? So probably Someone doing outbound that only focusing on volume. Like, they will not I don't care. I will continue on click. Right? But when you have someone, like, Stepping back and say, like, why is our open rate dropping, like, drastically? Something is happening. Raul Perdigao [00:10:24]: So then you start digging. I will say normally that Either sits with management, or even with, rev ops, sales ops. They will take the time to deep dive into this, and they will okay. Like, we need help. Like, we probably should Be looking into a warm up system. Celeste Berke [00:10:38]: And then your team's helping them with those red flags to look for, how to read the reports, how to be in front of that growth before they hinder themselves. And I can see teams that are in hyper growth mode. It it is difficult to say we need to put something in place and then sit on our hands for for a little bit of time in order to do that effectively, how are you mentoring those companies through that, let's say, that bridge, right, that that gap between their current state and their desired future state. Raul Perdigao [00:11:14]: Mhmm. Definitely. So we we publicly state that we are against spray and spray. Right? So we really wanna make sure that we wanna talk to the right people at the right time with the right message and be really, really effective at at this, Making sure that the sales teams are very productive and effective on the way that they are mating all of this multichannel. Right? So that's a given. But when when companies start working with us, we we wanna make sure that they have, for example, all the check boxes when they onboarding someone. Right. So imagine that you're onboarding me. Raul Perdigao [00:11:44]: Right? Raul Pradigal. I will say it again. But the thing is, as soon as you have that name, like, by the mailbox Right there, right now, that's the first thing that you'll you'll be doing. Raul will be working in sales. Here is the mailbox. First thing that you do, warm up. Right? So you have the mailbox. It basically warm up. Raul Perdigao [00:12:03]: Even if Raul joins in Europe, we normally tend to join a month, 2 months ahead of time. I know. So if you have Raul, you have a a full month to warm him up. So when Raul joins, he will be starting to Slowly and steadily doing his outbound approaches. He will be able to ramp up his volume. He will be safe. Right? So you'll be able to allow Rahul to Scale his mailbox and use more, build a couple of Elias. So it's so interesting that with this type of procedures that you have and people nowadays, they have this. Raul Perdigao [00:12:36]: They have all of these checkboxes to onboard people, right? So think about outbound. Like, think about everything that you need to build. That's where we get in. You know, like, we really wanna make sure that people understand that and help also your salespeople to succeed at outbound. So it's in your hands as a manager. And they have all of those playbooks ready. Understand, you know, like the best performance and it's really what doesn't perform, And really teach them on the best strategies and how to social selling. You know, like, don't put your features Right up front. Raul Perdigao [00:13:11]: You know, like, think about, like, you wanna talk about some something that people want to talk about as well. Right? Engage with people in Common interest interests. And then you'll be able to understand, like, why are you selling and what are you selling and why it's so valuable for them. But that's again, that goes into strategies. Like, let's focus a little bit more on tools as well. Celeste Berke [00:13:30]: Yeah. Yeah. And there's Raul Perdigao [00:13:32]: But I will say that. Celeste Berke [00:13:32]: The weeks leading up to this conversation, right, outreach. Everybody was posting about outreach and what they were saying, which is so funny because of what Outreach does at scale and putting out a statement, basically, that was this trigger warning for everybody to talk about, Oh, outbound is dead. Your domain is going to be burned, right? Everything is going to spam. Everything lands in spam. What was happening in your organization in in response to all of that on LinkedIn? Raul Perdigao [00:14:10]: Yeah. But basically, we we we we read it, and it's definitely something, like, we keep an eye very close to To to the provider. So we really wanna make sure that not not only we comply, but we are on top of those to be prepared. Specifically for these, like, I don't think that we are not preparing anything because we were anything because we were built differently in a way that we don't believe in spray and pray. So there are a couple of features that really helps us to make sure that we go after that performance for the end user. I'm not talking about the manager. I'm talking like the person that is effectively on the forefront on doing the outbound in prospecting. So for example, making sure that we allow people to automatically choose and send from multi multiple mailboxes within one click. Raul Perdigao [00:14:52]: Right. So basically, you'll have a dropdown. You'll be able to select all my Elias and send from these, use different schedules, And make sure that it's distributed evenly, so none of them are flagged. This is one click away with AmplemarketlMarket. Right? So is something that probably a lot of tools right now are scrambling. Like, how will we do this? You know, like, manageable multiple mailboxes. We automatically manage multiple domains as well. We are able to track and connect all of them within 1 account. Raul Perdigao [00:15:20]: We really wanted to make sure that it's seamless For you to use as an end user. You don't have to worry about it. We will do the distribution. Like, we will look into this. We'll do the placement tasks. We will look into the deliverability. We'll look into the reports. You as a user focus on getting the right people, talk to them, engaging with the right content. Raul Perdigao [00:15:39]: We also have a very interesting way on on Expanding that and making sure that we connect with a lot of people. And we have a, machine learning helping us out, I will say, to make sure that every single one of them will receive a hyper personalized email, within the same sequence. So that's another trick. You know, like, a lot of people, we come to us and say like, now how can I transfer, like, these 50 sequences that I use for all my ICP? And I said, well, I can tran I can translate that into 2 sequences that will keep all the personalization that you have, And let Amplemarketlify do the rest. Let the machine work for you. Yeah. So those type of, of, of things, you know, like making sure that you don't send The same subject line. You don't send the same composition. Raul Perdigao [00:16:25]: So the the email providers, they look at the composition of the email at, itself. You know, like paragraphs, Sentiment, how long it is. So you need to vary. You need you need to really understand what they are doing, what they are looking at for you to Not go against it, but play, by the way. Celeste Berke [00:16:42]: And It's interesting you say that. So 2 years ago, the business partner and I had that I had at the time we started to get into sequencing, and he had this totally robust Excel spreadsheet that there were all of these steps. I had to learn it at what point, but I laugh now, right, because because your team's out there doing this with one click and it would it would upload the emails, but then it would randomly pick, right, a subject line, whatever the salutation was gonna be and then the the body so that it was all randomized, so it was getting past all those filters, and I laugh because just a couple of years later, here we are, one click of a of a button, and and you can do that. But you learn Exactly. From all of that, and I think some of the downfall of what we're seeing right now is we are all so used to all these fancy tools and widgets and everything to make our life easier that we often jump right to, like like we said, that happy place, that final destination, that where everything is going seamlessly, and we forget when we're inside a business or managing a large team. We have to do all of those steps, and we have to ensure that they're in place for our team to be successful. And how do you think tell us a little bit about the founders having that foresight into what they were building because it sounds like they were a little bit ahead of their time and ahead of this curve as to not get caught up in in what's all the bashing of spamming and, you know, cold outbound is dead. You all were at the forefront of creating something that was ahead of its time. Raul Perdigao [00:18:32]: Not only. 100%. So it was one of the things that brought me to work with them, obviously. Right? So It's it's really interesting, and I tell you why they are so successful is they are not salespeople. So they they learn the hard way because, Like, our CEO is a graduate, computer science from MIT, and 2 other founders are basically, they studied physics in university in Lisbon. So as you can imagine, like, a little bit of strangers to the sales world. And they figured all of this out when they were doing sales, like when they were trying to sell their e commerce platform. Right? So that's why they took it in a in a very different perspective. Raul Perdigao [00:19:08]: And think about it 4 4 years ago or 5 years ago, We lived in a world where point solutions were the game. Right? So we have this software here that it's incredible on this specific thing that it does. Let's go. Right? So even investors were going in that direction. Like, point solution is key. And 4 years ago, they look at the portfolio of companies that you need to buy to do sales. Like, and Salesforce recently released a study that it's 10. On average, a salesperson has to log in into 10 tools. Raul Perdigao [00:19:40]: Right? So for from enrichments to data quality for email and dialing, etcetera. So, basically, that was the 1st vision. Like, we will build the 1st compound solution, really compound solution where one login will have access everything that you need to do for your prospecting. You know, I said that that was the vision. And right then, effectively, they start shifting into This needs to be, like, accomplished through email as well as one of the pillars of your multichannel approach. And then they soon really look into the social what's happening in LinkedIn. It's so powerful. So they they while they were learning and testing, they are scientists, so it's really interesting. Raul Perdigao [00:20:21]: They they took that perspective Everything that they do. So it's everything about trial and error, and you should apply that to outbound as well. If it doesn't work, iterate. Know, like, don't stick around for a month. I'd already in 2 weeks if necessary. And you will find the gold nugget. You'll have the moment, and then you'll multiply it. Right? So that's science for everyone. Raul Perdigao [00:20:41]: So they apply science to sales, and it's really interesting to see that it works. Celeste Berke [00:20:46]: Yeah. I I last month, I think I interviewed a scientist turned she's now in the GTM space, and she has the same the same takeaways as you, right? It's science. It's like yes or no. This failed, now we change, now we shift. Like, we aren't waiting, it's we're moving at rapid speed, looking at it through a, you know, a scientist lens is definitely it's kind of like that a b, like yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. So that's interesting. Well, I I also love to ask guests a myth they'd like to bust, it, and I know we touched on it or danced around it a little bit, but I'd love to hear from you. What is one myth that you'd like to to bust? Raul Perdigao [00:21:31]: Yeah. Exactly. It it is it's it's very much around this, communication as well that we have been seeing. The the myth is that Outbound doesn't work. Right, Laura? Outbound is not for us. I hear this a lot. You know, like, oh, we're good with inbound. And it it's, yet again, it's really interesting for me because I I came from a company that 100% inbound. Raul Perdigao [00:21:50]: And it was one of the thing that we heavily discussed with the founders when I joined. Well, I'm leading now a team that it's Very outbound focused and very outbound driven, but that's that's something that's, you know, like, we talked a little bit about here in this call. It's definitely that that outbound doesn't work. Right? And I'm not even saying that we should focus exclusively in email, but, like, Outbound doesn't work for some because they don't know how to iterate fast. You know, like and these projects take time, and a lot of them a lot of sales leaders jump into this, like, Okay. I have 2 months to make this work. And I immediately tell them, like, probably, Amplemarketlemarket is not the tool for you because, like, I wanna make sure that when I position a project with you, we will succeed together. And for you to succeed at them at at not only enter market, but to succeed at outbounds, it will take time. Raul Perdigao [00:22:45]: Right? And I will I will guide you through all the steps. We have an incredible implementation and customer success team. But I, again, like, I believe that I lost a lot of deals like this because I'm being very open. But the people that effectively, like, take a step back and say, okay. At least I will I will hear what Raul is about to say. Normally, we see a lot of this because the projects are implemented in a proper way where they healed a lot of success throughout, right, through the right communication, to the right setup, So the right mindset of the teams, the right training put in place. So I would think that's the myth. You know, like, a lot of people come with that concept, like, no, no, no. Raul Perdigao [00:23:23]: We are product led growth. Like, we don't need outbound. Outbound doesn't work. So if anyone out there is curious to to challenge, and I will be glad to jump on that call And and show a little bit of our statistics as well to to prove them wrong. Celeste Berke [00:23:37]: And and we're very much in alignment from a gap selling lens when we go through discovery, which is basically a diagnostic. Right? We're looking at what are the problems, can we help you solve, what's the impact, what's the gap, and sales leaders will tell us this you know, I have 30 days, and and for us, that's not realistic. We have to have a realistic understanding of is your team open to change? Right? Are the behaviors going to change? And then how are we holding individuals accountable internally through enablement. Right? There's this training piece, and then enablement has to happen just like with your customers. But, realistically, that 30 to 90 day window is when we start to see an an uptick in win rates or a decline in sales cycle, but we're we're not magicians. It it takes time. Human behavior takes time, and and individuals are very resistant to change, especially sales teams, especially tenured sales individuals. Right? You have individuals on your teams who have been there 20 years. Celeste Berke [00:24:38]: Right? Tech is new. This is what we've done. And I once saw on a tech company. They're in hospitality tech. It said grow or die. Right? Really, this, like, adapt or die. And I think we're all in this situation of everybody's screaming outbound's dead, and that's just 1 narrative that's going out there. No. Celeste Berke [00:24:58]: Outbound in the wrong way might be Dead, but taking the time and having realistic expectations and setting it up from the get go, you can continue to have success. It's just those that are abusing it or or putting it in a bad light. So what what does the future hold for your team? What are some things You all are looking forward to as as you move into 2024. Raul Perdigao [00:25:24]: Mhmm. So basically, our team has been working. It's it's interesting because it goes back again to the experience of of the founder because since the beginning, they apply, language models and machine learning. What, you know, like, when AI was not sexy, and it was called machine learning? Yuck. No one wants to talk about it. You know, like, but our founders were so keen on it. Like, we can get, sentiment analysis from emails and and automatically trigger automations or workflows from replies. So, you know, like, really interesting. Raul Perdigao [00:25:53]: You were mentioning outbound takes time. Like, it doesn't. Like, we are able to to extract the the sentiment and what people are effectively trying to transpire, And we can fast track. We can shorten the time that salespeople get into their inbox. We can cut it More than half. Like right now with Amplemarketlemarket, we we have solutions that will really allow you to automatically build All of your follow ups has dropped. You only have to skim through it and send it. So it's all of our perspective into AI. Raul Perdigao [00:26:26]: So we we had definitely a heads up because we have been working with machine learning for the last 5 years. So a lot of people are now, oh, we are building. No. We are we're we're already building. So Celeste Berke [00:26:36]: We're on to the next phase. Right? Raul Perdigao [00:26:39]: It's really interesting because we were able to do that. I mean, like, when when ChatChpT came out, like, it was basically a fast track for us to connect to their API because we already had everything built And the models. So we were able really able to scale velocity, and one of the main focus is also how we look into AI, Celeste, is We don't wanna replace salespeople. We want effectively them to have superpowers for, for them to have FaceTime. People will still have FaceTime with their prospects, with their clients. Everything else, we really wanna make sure that we minimize and we maximize their output. So that's where are we focusing our efforts, Like building not only a AI copywriter that effectively understands sales emails. It's not a email. Raul Perdigao [00:27:23]: It's a sales email. And AI replier that schemes through your inbox and drafts emails for you with all the valid propositions, with everything that you basically set up for your companies to succeed. We will do it for you. So I will say time efficiency and keep an eye because Amplemarketlify market is coming up with a lot of interesting features that will maximize the performance and will minimize the time that people stay, you know, like prospecting or mining or, following up. You know, like, the where every every salesperson will say that, but that will not be an excuse anymore if you're using Apple Celeste Berke [00:27:59]: Watch. And I loved how we we chatted early on about, you being a fan of of the gap selling book and really this problem centric approach to how do I get my sales the team in order or, you know, to to get away from product and all of these great bells and whistles, but to truly understand what is going on with with your buyer because I think to your point, not everybody, you know, if their expectation isn't in line, if they're looking to do something out of the scope of what you all feel comfortable with and the results that you can deliver. Being okay to say no and to walk away from that individual because you're there to solve problems. You're not there to just sell a product in order to, you know, increase revenue. It has to be the right individuals who are in alignment. They see that future state and are willing to go on on that journey with you. So so I loved how you mentioned that in the beginning. Raul Perdigao [00:28:53]: In regarding upselling, Celeste, it has been one of the ways that we win a lot of, deals from competitors. Basically, because we understand where they are, what are the risks Of their remaining Yeah. Where they are, and what are we effectively offering in terms of performance and efficiency. So what that's the value. And if you don't conduct a proper discovery call to understand that, because yet again, there's a lot of people out there doing outbound and doing it well. We really wanna make sure and that's the interesting part about gap selling because they're already doing it. So where is effectively the uptick On onboarding a platform like Apple Market. Right? So that's that's where it's really hard to sell, and you really need to nail it down on Making sure that you understand where they are, what are the risks maintaining that same path, and what will be effectively the the additional on having a proper platform that will allow you to ramp or grow even faster. Raul Perdigao [00:29:49]: Right? And that's where gap selling really gets into the game on understanding those and how the implementation could effectively get them into the new step into their sales process. Celeste Berke [00:29:59]: Yeah. Well, I've so appreciated you sharing some insights and and debunking the myth that outbound is dead. We've learned that outbound, when done correctly, when we take a step back and we think about the direction that we wanna go, bringing on new team members. We need to set things up correctly, but, also we have to be okay to ask for help when it's out of our area of knowledge. I struggle a lot with working with champions within an organization who are trying to get their VP or CRO on board that they do need a framework. Right, everybody's doing something else and how do we bring teams together, and they'll come back and tell me, oh, the VPs said that they're gonna handle it themselves. They're they're not worried. It is what it is, they don't want to bring an outside, and I think often it's swallowing our ego and saying, This is not my area of expertise. Celeste Berke [00:30:51]: I'm the one holding the team back. If I look for fractional help or I bring on, you know, a partner such as Amplemarketlemarket, I Can Get TO Where We Need TO BE, and that's okay. And so I love how you're there to support teams in realizing that vision but also being the expert where they aren't because, let's face it, most of us are not experts in machine learning or AI. It sounds like your founder founders have the finger on the pulse there, and I'm really excited in the next couple of weeks to dive in and see what your platform can do so that I can continue to be or start to become an advocate and support your team. So I truly appreciate you extending your day as I know it's a little bit later there in the day to be on here. Your team can or individuals can, of course, follow your team on LinkedIn or reach out to you personally if they have questions. For any VP of sales or CRO who has a team who's doing outbound and just doesn't know what the future holds or they're starting to see some red flags, they can contact you. Any any parting thoughts before we end? Raul Perdigao [00:31:59]: 100%. There there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You know, like, and we we've skimmed through this news because we have been doing this approach, in the last couple of years. So we are very comfortable. And Yet again, like, not even in a in a head of sales perspective. Like, I'm really keen on engaging with people that really want to Set it up right, and I'm more than welcome to just connect with me in LinkedIn and ask a couple of questions. I'm an open book, and I love to share best practices. People understand what we are doing. Raul Perdigao [00:32:30]: They understand that the tool and the software goes along the strategy. And more than often, it eventually leads into a deal. But More than happy to bring some calm into the storm and effectively share some good practices that outbound is not that Not even close. So we just need to set everything right, and everyone will be super successful. I'm sure. Celeste Berke [00:32:51]: Great parting words. Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Look forward to continuing to get to know the team. Thanks for joining us on The Sales Edge Podcast. Raul Perdigao [00:33:00]: Thank you.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: And we are back on the Sales Edge podcast with Celeste. I'm here with doctor Robert Berke. If you didn't hear episode 1, stop right now and go listen to the previous episode where we covered all the things from Africa, Starting a business as an entrepreneur when you don't know what you're doing, the business lessons and the parallels in medicine and everyday life. PS, if you're almost 45 and you haven't gotten a colonoscopy, go get that as well. And my this is my dad, by way he was approached about a piece of technology, and I'm so excited for him to share the story because this is what many of us do. We have a piece of Technology, we think it's gonna be world changing. It can change businesses. He solves every problem that you have, and I wanna hear his story. Celeste Berke [00:00:47]: So take it away. 1999, some cowboy approached you. Dr. Robert Berke [00:00:51]: Well, it's, you know, actually, it was 2 brothers who were From Auburn, New York, which is pretty close to us here in in Western New York, had this product, then they brought and he said, we've got something for your practice, and we looked at it. Celeste Berke [00:01:04]: And what do you think at the time? Practice was what? 10, 15000 patients? Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:10]: No. But 75 100 patients. Celeste Berke [00:01:12]: 75100. That time. Okay. Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:14]: Yeah. And I looked at it, and I said, this is too clunky. I mean, it was like it is you know, it's just like, alright. It it it just made no sense. But But Celeste Berke [00:01:20]: so at the time, you had gone from Handwriting, so you're Okay, Dolores. 75, 100 patients, handwritten Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:27]: We were 2 docs and Two physician assistants, I think. And we were, we had gone from handwriting our notes to Dictating that we we went to voice activated dictation, those didn't work very well, but then we went to dictation and someone, a lady in town, Was making a fortune on us, $40,000 a year on our practice alone, typing the notes out on sticky paper, which Celeste Berke [00:01:55]: we just stick Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:56]: into their chart. Celeste Berke [00:01:57]: Cut the different Peace is and put it in the chart. Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:00]: A paper chart. We had a a person doing that full time. And What do you what Celeste Berke [00:02:04]: do you do for a living? I cut out Sticky paper. Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:09]: But anyway but the nice thing was you could read the notes. They were legible, Which was a huge step forward. Okay? Because then then the patients were transferable from, provider to provider without you having to try to decipher the Hieroglyphics like the person who had done it before. Celeste Berke [00:02:27]: The individual for their whole life story again, which as a patient, I'm really annoyed. Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:32]: Mhmm. So I I saw this conference on computers and medicine in New York City, so I went and it was mainly about the large hospital systems And what computerizing them would mean. And one of the things which was eye opening was that it would cut down on medication errors in hospitals and just in the Extra dose of medicine that would be given to a patient who didn't need it, but that the order, because it was handwritten, wouldn't get taken off by the nurse For 5 hours, therefore the patient would get 1 more dose and didn't need it, and it would cost a hospital like, Beth Israel in New York City $1,000,000 a year in excess Dosing of medicine. Not that it was dangerous though it could be, but it it was that impactful. And I'm thinking to myself, well, this is, you know, And I had a friend a few years earlier who had been at one of the experimental programs in medicine. A guy named Weed had done it in Vermont and it was a touchscreen, actually. It was kinda unique for that time, but still, it was very early stuff. Well, about 6 months later, these cowboys came back again with this program. Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:48]: We looked at it and it was really a lot better. And we said, okay, let's go. And so we purchased Celeste Berke [00:03:57]: And what was the investment at the time? Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:59]: The investment was $120,000. Celeste Berke [00:04:01]: K. So we're talking a big investment. Right? But also a completely Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:04]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That meant change Celeste Berke [00:04:06]: what your team was doing. Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:09]: Right. But that was software and hardware for everybody, meaning everybody was sitting in front of a screen and, You know, printers, the whole thing, prescription printers, you know, there was a lot of connectivity, Celeste Berke [00:04:25]: the wiring, the whole thing. 75 100 charts in your office as well. Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:29]: That's right. To to convert. Yeah. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:04:32]: We I know this team who's Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:34]: been Yes. As you were you're yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know. Well, ultimately we did the conversion and then these charts, 75100 of them had to be mothballed for, If they were a kid 20 years, if they were a person x number of years, just safety, and we can brought that data in slowly, But that was $120,000 which we had anticipated we would pay back in 4 years. Well, what we didn't understand was that we were 2 to 3 weeks behind in accounts billable because of the paper charts. Dr. Robert Berke [00:05:21]: That shrunk To 2 to 3 days. Okay? We paid the 120,000 off In 6 months. Because it shrunk our receivables down. Like, we had just Cash sitting out there Right. That sat out there for months because of the delay in billing, and suddenly it it came in. And so The thing paid for itself. And then we started to find that there were problems with the system, And we would call these people up, it'd be fixed the next day. Call it up, they'd be fixed the next day. Dr. Robert Berke [00:06:03]: And then they started asking us, look, when you find yourself, please let us know. Can you be a beta site for us because like obviously and they said you know we we load 3. Every month we start 3 practices. One goes like this, 1 goes like this, and 1 goes like this, and you guys are going like this, and we were just flying and We just kept, you know, going and going and going, and ultimately, you know, we're 20 4 years later on the same system, we're still they tried to poach some of our people because we were giving them so much information on how to run the thing That they, you know, are calling us for advice and everything else, and now everybody is using stuff that we've built in. That wasn't me. It was just all of us We had built, and this is some of what getting back to that adaptive entrepreneurism, what I instilled in my staff What I said, if you see something that isn't working for you at the clerical level or at the nursing level or at the billing level, don't sit there and keep your mouth shut. Say something And let's look at how you can help improve the system because that is the way you have this continuous improvement, a A learning, environment, and it's a learning, business. And you're constantly and and Even today, we're doing the same thing. Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:26]: Yeah. We continue to do that. And actually, there are parts of that system now that we built for them in a sense. Told them, look, You've gotta do this because of that whole story about who gets a colonoscopy, who gets a a pap smear. If you come into the office, the first screen I see Tells me what you're missing. Celeste Berke [00:07:44]: What's missing? Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:45]: Well, yes. But what's missing is also what's missing with respect Getting back to what we talked about in the last session, I think it was the last time we chatted, about the incentives That we get reimbursed for for getting people to do. It's all in there. No matter what you want, you can put in there their birthday, You know that it it it lights up that it's their birthday today or this week. I mean, you can put in whatever you want. And we just kept feeding, and we can now do that in our own system and and tailor it to whatever want, but we also keep telling them about enhancements. Anyway Celeste Berke [00:08:21]: And that is what's commonly known today as EMR, electronic medical records. So when most of us, unless unless you're in a super rural area, are going to the doctor, they're on the screen. And you've also Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:35]: But wait a minute. So then Celeste Berke [00:08:38]: Yes. Now you've been active. Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:41]: We've realized that There is a every every cloud has a silver lining, but every silver lining also has a cloud. And what we found was Patients were complaining they weren't complaining about their prescriptions being sent in or being printed off and we finally came very quickly to Them directly going to the pharmacy without any paper or anything like that, but what they were complaining about was the doctors sitting there like this all day, you know, and not making eye contact. And it's a problem with your date entry. Celeste Berke [00:09:12]: What they were saying or people like me. Right? Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:15]: You are, you can't date entry, Especially a guy like me who doesn't type very well can't enter everything they're saying so they come in next time and they say, you know, we talked about this and it wasn't in the old record because I was too busy talk because they were talking also about this and this and this and this. So this wasn't our system, but someone we knew Had dev devised a scribe system. Now people have used scribes, you know, before, and the scribes come into the room with you and sit there quietly like a mouse in the corner and are typing while you're Celeste Berke [00:09:49]: talking to him. Stenographer. Right? Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:52]: Yes. A little obtrusive, I would say. And also, you know, another person in the room And Celeste Berke [00:09:57]: now you wanna talk about the colonoscopy I need? Like, Cannot know. Dr. Robert Berke [00:10:01]: Or or I I I am talking about my wife who's in and I'm having a where, you know, and I can't you know? Yeah. So we we developed a system where the scribe isn't in the room. I wear a headset And there's a screen in the room which the patient can see, their note is being done, but also I can and the scribe's sitting at home And it's mirroring her it's an iPad that is mirroring her computer on my screen, Not my computer screen, which is sitting on my desk in the office, and I'm sitting here having a conversation with her just like I'm having one with you, face to face And everything that is being talked about is being data entry. Celeste Berke [00:10:50]: The problem for all of you who are in sales and are trying to draw Awesome correlations here. When we talk about a tech product or, like, selling whatever your widget is, it wasn't that the notes weren't getting put in. That's an annoyance, right, to the doctor and also who's ever looking at the chart. The problem that you can't just fix immediately. Right? It's this overarching became customer satisfaction. Right? The potential Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:13]: I exactly Celeste Berke [00:11:14]: lose patients because they felt like the doctor wasn't engaged with them because the doctor's too busy trying to catch every word. And if you're like my dad, who I told him 20 years ago to learn how to type, and he never did. Like, he pecks on the computer. Right? We're not we're not as as exactly efficient in getting those Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:33]: notes. But but I can tell you even today well, first of all, there there's more to this story. But Because it only costs it only the cost of that scribe is 1 and a half patients a day more, which I can Easily see because I'm not sitting there doing this or going back to my office and spending 20 minutes typing in a note that I'm trying to remember or being up half the night trying to type All the notes that I never did, which is a common complaint that doctors have who don't have, you know, don't have this kind of system, They've taken all kinds of work home. I don't take any work home. My notes are done when I leave the office. I go for a run, I go for a bike ride, that's what I do. I mean, hey, Why not? So anyway, it's 1 and a half So Celeste Berke [00:12:18]: your quality of life has improved as well. Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:21]: There there is the other issue. Quality of life, I've gained quality of life. And if you ask your sister, the doctor, she's part of a 40,000 Female doctor Facebook group. Biggest complaint? Quality of life. Go home, I'm sitting for hours dealing with stuff that I couldn't deal with the office. We figured it out. Plus, the patients love it because I'm sitting there talking to them. I'm spending time quality time with them. Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:53]: I it's like they've got a real live person with them And I've got a whiteboard. I can draw them little diagrams, or I can say to my scribe, can you go out on Google and bring me in a picture of a knee? I wanna show I wanna show the patient how this knee works and where the problem is. I mean, it's it's it's like this whole thing. Or can you bring up that, The x-ray or that x-ray report, let's talk Mhmm. It's or your last labs. Look, this cholesterol level, yeah, don't worry about it. It's this you know, it's It's it's and I can order their orders, their x rays, their referrals, their while we're talking, And it's all done. And so we've done 3 things there, made my life much More simple and my quality of life that much better, which is really important. Dr. Robert Berke [00:13:46]: We're seeing a lot of doctors screwing off because they just don't want to deal with it anymore. It's It's so cumbersome and and like Yeah. Odious, you don't even wanna do it anymore and a lot of them are just selling out, you know, And then the second thing is it's made the patient's level of satisfaction that much better. And so you and you're more efficient. There it is. Yeah. You solved Celeste Berke [00:14:11]: All of it. Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:12]: The major the major Celeste Berke [00:14:14]: is sitting at home. They have a remote life at home, so You're able to hire other people who also have better quality of life. They're sitting at home, right, with Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:24]: Exactly. Don't have to get dressed up. Don't have to die. You know, the cost Clothing, oh, yeah, it's fine. Feed the cat, do whatever, you know, it's it's I've known, but it it there are a number of layers from a business point of view To employee satisfaction, physician satisfaction, patient satisfaction, but the most important Is efficiency. And this that we're doing has really been a quantum leap in efficiency. So remember I talked about We shrunk accounts receivable to 2 to 3 to 4 days. Same day, next day. Dr. Robert Berke [00:15:05]: Same day, next day. 30 day, you know, like stuff that's out there 30 days Is the majority of our billing. I mean, that's totally incredible. And we do our own billing because again, it is another business Thing that we learned, you you can, you know, shop out your billing at 7% or whatever it is, there's some cost. Yeah, but they don't care, it's your billing, you know? My people, every penny, every this and they're still same day and they're like you know, they drive you nuts because you haven't you gotta put this in or that, but We have control of it and these are the things you learn and every people we talk, oh, I got it out and I'm unhappy because I, You know claims, you know, they they a claim gets denied which happens frequently. I we know 1 organization, they stick them in a drawer. You know? It's too little, it's $35 or whatever else I say. They got a drawer full of, Well, once you get to the 3rd or 4th drawer full of $35 or $50, you know, it's real money. Dr. Robert Berke [00:16:16]: And we go after we have the the flexibility to go after everything that we can get paid and very efficiently. Yeah. We may overdo it. You know? Maybe there's a certain point at which you just gotta walk away from it, but it it's These are and and I this whole just is life experience. You Celeste Berke [00:16:35]: know? I've never been in this place. So where I struggle I mean, a lot of my Fellow comrades on sales struggle is whenever you get into organizations, you see problems. You see impacts. You see things that are broken. You talk To reps, you talk to individuals that work in there. Right? They're dissatisfied. They don't have training. They don't have all of this stuff. Celeste Berke [00:16:57]: And for me, especially in the industry I came from. I saw it all the time where it's people have arrived at this position. But why do I continue to invest or be innovative, like, when I'm collecting a paycheck, and I think you're a perfect example of and I'd love to hear from you. You're still at a place where you've could have retired 10, 13 ish years ago, and you're still showing up, but you're still driving innovation. Like, you brought in EOS for your business. Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:28]: Right. Right. Celeste Berke [00:17:30]: Where where does that come from? Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:32]: Oh, that that was one of my partners came across it and thought that one of the things that we lacked, Even though we had all this going on was that it wasn't organized enough in the sense of structured in the way we problem solve. And EOS did, it was fairly expensive, but the training taught us a structured approach to meeting and to Setting goals, rocks as they call them, big goals and then littler goals and whatever else, year rocks, Smaller pebbles or or 3 month and who's responsible, and who takes ownership and has to report. And our meetings at every level, providers, owners, clerical, billing, nurses, they all have their own Meetings, L10s they're called, and it's only an hour and it's very structured And everybody pipes up, you know, and if there's a problem, it's listed, we choose the top 3, go through them, And everybody's got a you know, everybody queues in as to what they think and we come up with solutions. And, yeah, A growing learning organization has to continuously improve and can't just sit there Like what you're describing and collect a paycheck. As soon as you have people just sitting there collecting a paycheck and not actively looking Every time, every day seeing something that they think could be done better. I I can remember One of our people who wasn't computer literate. I mean, like, you know, a lot of our people never had you know, this was a few years ago, suddenly chiming in and saying, well, you know, I Click this thing and and suddenly I saw you could do this. Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:19:30]: But this was what was happening early on. We, you know, we had this tool, but It had all the bells and whistles which no one knew how to and someone would hit a button and, oh my god, you can do this. And recently, we were all complaining about Because we're the bottom of the funnel being family practice, and in most parts now in the United States, There are regional they're called RIOS, regional health information organizations, where you can get all the data you want on wherever you go. You know if you were to go to Denver, some small community hospital in Denver, somewhere else, a clinic, all that information comes back to your primary care doctor. Wait. Can you imagine the amount of stuff that comes in every day? And someone said, well, you know, a lot of this stuff we don't even have to do. It's the patient's in hospital, all these are the in hospital labs. You don't need to look at them. Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:23]: But we're all complaining, we have hundreds of these. And he says, well, you know, if you do this, you can collect them all and just close them. I and none of us know how to do that and this, You know, again, it's just again, people just not being afraid to touch a button here or to and find some new way to do something that everybody benefits from. Saves you 10 clicks. Saves you this. Saves you that. I mean, it's all and it's all just goes on and on. Celeste Berke [00:20:49]: You've built an organization that isn't just like the lumpen pro proletariat. Right? Who are just it's like everybody has buy in because everybody knows, Like, your mission, your vision, the problems that you're solving, basically, that you're out there to do no harm and also to do good in the Community, right, that stems from how you first started the practice as a very community focused Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:16]: Mhmm. They they it's getting hard right now it's getting very hard because of, staffing. I mean, all the bigger institutions are Starving for staff so they're offering a these huge bonuses, you know, that that we can't compete with. All we can compete with is the fact that we have a group, A core group of x number of employees who carry enough to show up every day because they enjoy being there, and they're part of An organization that cares about them and and also wants to hear from them on, you know, what they think about Improving Right. How we do our work. Celeste Berke [00:21:53]: They're not just improving Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:54]: their work. Yeah. And that's about all you can do. It's it's really hard Staffing wise, you know, everybody's complaining, but everybody's complaining everywhere about it. A, the younger staff Don't seem to have the same stick to it ness that the older timers have, you know, who just understand that you show up every day and you do your work and you You're part of something that's actually quite enjoyable. Younger ones I mean it's really every industry is complaining about Finding people who, you know, won't jump for a dollar more an hour somewhere else. Right. You know, not realizing that, Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:34]: You're gonna be asked to do more things and to maybe, you know, whatever else. And anyway. Celeste Berke [00:22:42]: Yeah. So I wanna talk briefly before we close our to close this out. I wrote an article. I actually I should send it to you. Last week when I was pacing at night, you know, it was 9, 10 o'clock at night. I hadn't written my weekly newsletter. And then I thought, like, let me channel my dad. What would he tell me? When times are tough, when so we're seeing really low quota attainment from reps out there. Celeste Berke [00:23:08]: Company is not making their numbers, right, year end projections not being great. And, also, If you're not closing deals, that's tough on your mindset. It's also difficult because sometimes you have 1 shot. Right? You have 1 call, and if you flub the call, you don't get a do over. And so my article about the advice that you give me before you go into anything. Right? A speaking engagement, a webinar, right to stand there and piss ice water. Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:41]: And I Exactly. Celeste Berke [00:23:43]: And I wanna hear about a tough if you have to look back on your life, the toughest, most Challenging moment that you've had. Tell us that story because I'm assuming you took a step back to piss ice water before. Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:59]: Well, first of all, that that came from I was playing football in college and it was my I was the 2nd stringer on the varsity team in college, and before our 1st game Thursday night, I came to practice and the coach pulled me aside. He was an old pro, you know, who I played and he pulled me aside and said, son, you're on Saturday, the guy ahead of you, Linebacker. I blew his knee out last night in practice. So you know what you have to do, we've talked about all the cues you see when things happen, But you have to when the play starts, do nothing but stand there and piss ice water. And I looked at him like, what's he talking about? And he said, stand there and take a moment to look at what's going on and you'll know exactly what to do. If you don't take that moment, You're just gonna do something and it may not be the right it may be the right thing, it may not be, and you can avoid that by just Taking it taking that one second. And that's been for my whole life, that's been, like, really important In the operating room, in the delivery room, in life in general, just nothing happens that fast. You know, it it does, but if you listen to the and I'm gonna use a sports analogy here. Dr. Robert Berke [00:25:22]: The guys talking in a game watching a pro game and they're talking about Wayne Gretzky in hockey or Tom Brady or, You know or or Michael Jordan. For them, when it starts, everything slows down for them. They see the field. They see they they just see in almost in slow motion What has to be done? Well, everybody else is just, you know, they have that ability and everybody has that ability if you take the, If you learn that one thing, which is just take a breath and then do what you have to do. So I'm sitting there one day in the delivery room and this lady and I are having a, you know, chat, she's a ski instructor and she's pushing out her 1st baby, and Yeah. We're happy and we're just talking, you know, and she pushes out this baby, beautiful baby, and then I'm waiting and she delivers her placenta along with the uterus attached to Which is not a good thing. No, that's called a, you know, a a cuvalier uterus, the uterus comes out Inside out at you. And it's really not good because it means the placenta's stuck on and you there's a lot of bad things happening. Dr. Robert Berke [00:26:35]: And I'm just sitting there and I I kind of take a moment, I say to the nurse, call down to the OR, you know, call me another doctor, I need someone to look after the baby. And then we take her down to the OR and, you know, I I I have a surgeon come in because this is requires a little procedure which I was, I mean, I've never seen this before, though I know exactly what it is. And afterwards, the nurse says to me, You are so calm, like, why why is you know, like how could you just sit there? And I'm my heart's going about 200, you know, but I'm sitting there, you know, And the woman says to me afterwards, you know, I knew there was something wrong because you stopped telling me jokes, you know, but otherwise, you know, But you have to kind of stand there and piss ice water sometimes and just do what you have to do once you see what you have to do. Anyway Celeste Berke [00:27:26]: And you did the same thing a couple of years ago with the guy at the gym whose whose heart Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:31]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I I teach spin class, And this guy I know is in spin, and he comes in, you know, he's not spinning with us, but he was swimming. He comes in, and this guy Sits on a bike and, you know, we don't care, and he spins and then he leaves. And then the class ends and everybody leaves, and I stopped for a minute to use the little bathroom because there was an old school room. And I walked down the hall and I see he's sitting on the couch but he's kinda and I figure he's joking and I walk over and I realize he's Had a cardiac arrest and I give him a thump on the chest which does nothing, it's an old fashioned kind of, And then I go scuttling down the hall in my in my bike shoes, run into the, you know, the and I say to the person at the desk, I need the AED. Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:16]: I need you to call 911, then I kick open the door to the the locker room, and I say I need some help. Who comes out but another doctor and a minister? I figured I got the guy covered either way here. We go down, you know, CPR, shock him 5 times, the guy's still alive. Again, you have to just, you know but Difficult times? Yeah. I remember the most difficult time in my life, I'm talking medically, Was as a public health officer in 1997. We had an HIV spreader in our community, And we had been looking at the case for a while, figured out who this guy was, And we figured it out because one of my folks had interviewed him in jail and about 6 months earlier and he said, I don't give an f what you You're telling me about me being HIV positive. Well, I'll go out and do whatever I want, and she had put it in her notes somewhere. And after about six Cases that we came across that young girls who were HIV positive, she came to me and said, I think it's this guy, And we had another 6 cases come in and we had to Ultimately expose him publicly because the local superior court judge said you've gotta do this. Dr. Robert Berke [00:29:41]: This guy's a danger. And there was a a I was talking to the state health department on Friday night, October 24th, 1997 at 5 o'clock in the afternoon with someone from the CDC and I'm sitting in my office and they're giving me this, Well, you know, you could, you know, just whatever. We can't help you very much on this, and it sounded Someone sawing the limb, the branch that I was on a little closer to the trunk, you know, like, I could hear the and it was a very lonely kinda weekend. You know, I remember taking Your brother John to a football game. The John Elway and the Broncos were there, and I'm sitting in this at the Bills Stadium with 80,000 people. And I knew Monday morning we were gonna have a press conference and announce this, and it was the loneliest place I've ever been in my life With 80,000 people with me knowing, like, what I knew about what we were gonna do. And Monday morning, 10 o'clock in the morning, We have a room our our our meeting room is full of, people from, you know, Erie, you know, And local news people and I kind of do the announcement that, you know, this is the guy. We had a poster of him and everything else, and We didn't know where he was, and we had, you know, we had a problem. Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:04]: I walked out and the, guy from Erie who I knew, you know, he's a stringer for the new Erie News said to me, doc, you don't know how big a story this is, and I said, yeah, you know, we're we're just doing it. Well, by 2 in the afternoon, Dan Rather's person was sitting across, or Raheema Ellis was sitting across me grilling me as to, you know, What did I know about who it was? And by that time, I did know who it was and I knew where he was. He was he had already been imprisoned in Rikers Island for something else, A drive by shooting or something crazy, you know? And so we had him, but I couldn't divulge that. But, oh, boy, that was like 2 weeks of absolute craziness. Oh, god. Was that that was just That was tough. That was tough. Celeste Berke [00:31:51]: Yeah. I remember seeing you on TV. I was a freshman in college watching for my Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:56]: I remember my my friend from Australia sending me a note saying he saw me on TV as well. I mean, it was that crazy. It was that big a story. And it went on for Celeste Berke [00:32:06]: Yes. The special victims unit. Law and Order special victims unit was episode Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:11]: And about it. Well, they and the big trucks With the the, you know, the the antennae were outside for 10 days, and suddenly they were gone because the nanny gate story broke in off Long I or off in Boston somewhere. And we were Celeste Berke [00:32:25]: Done. Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:25]: Suddenly no one was around. It was done. And and, yeah, it's like that, you know? It's like, you know, have you heard anything about Ukraine lately? No. Because it's all Gaza now. You know, if they just do this, the story moves but but those are oh, that would And the Friday night where I was my partner had called me up and said, could you come over and Chat with me. So I went and I stopped at his house, and he said, I'm thinking of leaving the practice. It's just too busy for me. You know? Like, he could've waited, you know, a day or 2. Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:57]: Like, he knew what was So this is I came home and I told my wife, and my wife said, well, what's the third thing that happened? Like, happened in threes, you know, like but anyway, we that was tough. That that was and then I was by myself Celeste Berke [00:33:10]: Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:11]: Because he left and the other guy I had hired Left pretty soon and so I was by myself. Yeah. And then then thing but things turned around and things now we have 4 offices, 100 employees, 17,000 patients have merged once with a a hospital practice. And here's this business story if you want a business story in medicine. We looked at this hospital practice. Hospitals don't run family practice very well. They they run hospitals. And so they were losing $800,000 a year Because no show rate was 30%, and they were paying all his staff and, you know, it was just not good. Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:51]: And so we went and said, we will take it over for you. You'll lose the total cost. The revenues don't matter because you're losing $800,000 a year. You will net Not lose $800,000 a year, and you'll continue to get all well, it was even better than that because it was a hospital run practice. They're a special category. Labs are part of the fee they get. Well, you know, so you order x rays, labs, they they don't get anything for it. Now we own the practice, they get all the labs And the x rays, and it's all additional charges they can do, plus we were sending all our labs to an outside lab, and we said we'll send you all our labs, Which was couple of $1,000,000 worth of laboratory business. Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:39]: So they ended up not losing $800,000, getting Our labs getting the extra reimbursement, you know, and the headache was gone. And we doubled our practice overnight, Which was a bit crazy and was a lot of work and was but in and they were using a a computer and they were using another software which was just Garbage. It was awful. And so we merged that into ours, and all those patients to ours, and it was just a A win win for everybody, and so it doubled the size of our practice. And it it was, you know, a lot of, work, but Fascinating. You know? Fascinating business deal. And I knew immediately looking at what at how what they were doing that the deal was The best for both of us, you know? Celeste Berke [00:35:32]: So as you move on into a new phase of your life, No Ironman training. You've written your stories to books out there that you've self published. Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:45]: 3. Celeste Berke [00:35:46]: 3? 3. Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:47]: Yes. I did. Poor poor lost mom. Oh. Your your niece's lost, doll in the park. Yes. I just did that. Celeste Berke [00:35:54]: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:56]: Your your daughter will get one at Christmas time. I have Okay. Okay. For her. Celeste Berke [00:36:00]: What advice do you have 2 salespeople or people like myself. Right? Mid career. Days are tough. The dip seems to sometimes keep going down. Dr. Robert Berke [00:36:11]: Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:36:13]: Before it inches up slowly. Dr. Robert Berke [00:36:17]: Well, first of all, don't try to sell people what They don't want. You've gotta look at where their where where the hurt point is. This last story, I knew what the hurt point was, and Give them a a a way to solve that because solving that for them is Probably what's stuck in their crawl. And they either are just avoiding it or, you know, just ignoring it or whatever else or they can't figure out a way Out of it. Telling them that they're gonna earn more money or this or that or whatever else. EOS, you know, they told us we were gonna improve our income by so much. The issue wasn't that for us. The issue for us was better organization, better better ways to to look at our problems and deal with them, you an organized fashion. Dr. Robert Berke [00:37:08]: Well, same thing. Sometimes, you know, telling people this is the best thing since sliced bread isn't what They need what they need is maybe to solve a problem that they're just that they don't even recognize or that they've recognized but just can't deal with. And and and it may improve things other than the bottom line, but it may improve their They're they're they're much like the little headset, you know, a lot of different things. My my my my ability to go out and ride my bike, You know, patient getting a person looking at them. I had a long conversation the other night with a doc who I was talking to about scribes. He does not use 1, But he says, yeah. You know what? You're right because I have to go back to my office and I have to do my notes, Yeah. Like, again. Celeste Berke [00:37:56]: This is a whole new business center for you. Dr. Robert Berke [00:37:59]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. Celeste Berke [00:38:02]: Add it to the list. Add it to the list. Yeah. Of course. Alright. So we're gonna stand and piss ice water. Look for the problems. Dr. Robert Berke [00:38:12]: Right. And look for the efficiencies more than because the efficiencies will then translate into financial, you know, improvement. But Don't immediately go when you're selling to what they're gonna you know, how much more they're gonna make, you know. Oh, it's just gonna you're gonna make 10% more, or you're gonna do this or do that. They hear this all the time. What you really want to do for them is give them sometimes intangibles, and sometimes Solve a problem that you see in their system that they don't fully appreciate. And Celeste Berke [00:38:52]: Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:38:52]: It's, Celeste Berke [00:38:53]: Totally. I'm I'm with you there. Alright. So if you tuned into the 1st episode, You heard about my dad's time in Africa. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to tell the listeners oh, Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:07]: One Okay. It's empty. Celeste Berke [00:39:10]: Of your most favorite memories from Africa. Like, something that we wouldn't Think of today that you got to see us. Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:20]: This is a funny story. You know? First of all, I'm fluent in pidgin English, which is what I had to use when I was there. It's the because Cameroon has 400 different languages, they all speak pidgin which is a It's a lingua franca, the pidgin in West Africa is English based, but it has a lot of words mixed in, you know, and so I'm having A party at my house for my midwives. I would bring them in and they would have a a 2 day, you know, seminar in our, you know, in our office, and then I don't have to come to my house. Celeste Berke [00:39:55]: Lived, just so people understood, like, you lived in the city, but then you would Travel Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:59]: Well, a city a city. I lived in a city of 40,000, which means 30,000 kids and 10,000 adults. Celeste Berke [00:40:07]: But you would then travel out to the bush part Dr. Robert Berke [00:40:10]: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I had 27 I had 27 health centers that were out 45 kilometers by dirt road here or there. And so once a year we would bring them in, the midwives in, because they were out there in the, you know, outpost, A cement block, nicely built buildings, but, you know, bring them in and give them some education and, you know, also just give them a chance to share a little bit with each other. And then I would have them to my house, mine, we would cook a meal for them, you know, so there were 15 or 20 of them at a time. We would, you know, my cook my my cook, John, would cook meal for them, and they would all eat before they got there because they all knew that, You know, food in my house. I wasn't gonna fill them up. It's very funny. Dr. Robert Berke [00:40:53]: But anyway and we would talk a little bit and and then I remember I was playing some music for them on this battery run Phillips record player, and I had all these records, you know, Freedom's Clearwater Revival, all these, you know, old 70 eights, you know, whatever else, Lyle piece, you know. And one of the midwives said to me, doctor, how do they gum that gum Glue, yeah, in pigeon gum. How do they gum that sound to that disc? Fascinating. Fascinating. And I'm looking at this, and I'm thinking, how do they do that? You know? It it's a a very sophisticated process, And here we are, you know, just you know? And and she's asking me how they glue that sound on, which was, like, fascinating. You know? And then I had a phone in my house and I could the phones, very, very rudimentary. If you're lucky, you could get a line out somewhere, but it was hard because there's only a couple of lines in the whole town. And I remember one of my midwives asking me, You know, about phones in Canada, and I said, I can dial 10 numbers, talk to anybody in the world, basically. Dr. Robert Berke [00:42:15]: And she looked at me, and she says, white men, you own too much. Meaning, like, you people are, like, from Mars. You know? And and that was now, of course, in Africa. Everybody's got a cell phone and everything else. This was in 1971, you know, or 72, you know? It was a long time ago, but, like, we didn't realize, You know, like, just yeah. I said, you know, those are memories. You know? I have many others, but that that is fascinating. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:42:44]: Mhmm. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. It's for those listening, you know, an unlikely we We often don't think about medicine and how that translates to sales, and there's a lot of parallels with talking to patients about their problems I'm rooting through that and trying to figure out, okay. What's the root cause and what do I what's really important that has to be addressed here? You address it all in one setting? Do you are you able to? Do you have to send them out someplace else? And we face that, but we often forget There's this human side to just life and the greater good and doing things to help other people just because we're Dr. Robert Berke [00:43:26]: Right. Right. And and it's hard and the hardest thing sometimes is leaving you leaving it all at the office, you know, And coming home and just, you know, not I mean, that's sometimes very difficult, especially when you've had a day where you've Dealt with some very difficult things in people who've had some serious issues. You know, it it's you have to learn To to just it's you can't take it with you. It's, you know, it's not your problem in a sense. You're you're there to help, but You can't it'll lead you up. You know? And it's it's hard. It's hard. Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:03]: Yeah. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:44:04]: Well, I appreciate your time. Individuals can Follow you on LinkedIn, but hopefully soon more stories coming if you launch podcast or you write another book or who knows what you're doing, consulting work, helping practices. Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:19]: Oh, I have. I've talked to you already. I have, I I'm Interest I've got stories, you know? Celeste Berke [00:44:26]: Yes. And you're a great storyteller as well, so Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:29]: I Well, I've got Stories you know, one of the books that I wrote was Tales My Patients Told Me, and it it you can't believe some of the stories people have, You know? Celeste Berke [00:44:39]: Right. But you take the time you take the time to listen. Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:43]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Celeste Berke [00:44:45]: Is awesome, which is why you're, like, the mayor of where where I go Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:49]: No. I'm not. I'm no. Not at all. Celeste Berke [00:44:51]: I mean, everybody knows you. We're when you go places, you're Well Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:55]: And I've delivered 1200 of them, so, yeah, usually that ties you into a fairly large number of them in a small town. You know? Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:45:03]: Definitely. Well, thank you all for tuning in to this edition. Appreciate you sharing your time with me, dad. Always love chatting with you because we don't live close to one another. Thank you listeners. Stay tuned for next week's episode.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Hello. Hello. We are here on the Sales Edge Podcast. This is Celeste, your host, and I am here with someone who, when you all listen to this, may think, what the heck does this have to do with sales? But I am about to dive in, and our guest today. We will draw some parallels into sales. It is none other than my father, Robert Berke. So I'm sure I will miss a couple of things, and he can fill us in here in a moment. But he is a just celebrated 41 years in business as a small business owner owner well into the 7, maybe eight figure business. Celeste Berke [00:00:43]: So he can talk to us about that. Has an MD, an MBA an MD from McGill, MPH from Harvard, an MBA from some some other place. It'll come to me. As well as a host of other accolades, including being an acupuncturist, has attempted 6 Ironman in the last 18 years, and completed 2. Whole another episode we can devote just to Ironman. But this is my dad, father of 4, still working almost full time as well as teaching spin class as well as other things. So we will get into it. Lived in Africa for 3 years, and worked for the Canadian government. Celeste Berke [00:01:24]: It goes on and on. What did I miss? Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:28]: 25 years as a county health commissioner here in the county, went through some rather interesting events there. Yeah. There's a lot a lot a lot packed in there that could be unpacked over a long period of time. One of the things, you know, when you talk about business, they don't train doctors very well in because we our training is, you know, there's a whole lot of other things going on, and I think very little time is spent, and was spent when I was going through it. None was spent talking about the year gonna go out and, run a practice which is actually a business. You think you're just going out and treating people, you know, and you get paid and that's that's not the way it works. You have staff, you have a a facility, you have supplies, you have All kinds of things. Unfortunately in the United States you have this absolutely crazy billing system with multiple payers and all their Rules and regulations. Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:26]: It's really a a very complex business. In Canada it was a lot easier, one payer, and actually, you know, that was pretty simple. But even then it was a business and so when I kind of started out I didn't have much business experience. Fortunately, I didn't have to. I went to Africa and I was working for the Canadian government as a public health officer Running a very large operation which I had no experience in and had to learn on my feet. And basically after The person I was replacing left with giving me a little hands on experience, there were a lot of stuff to learn. And what I I found was Which was just something that I found out that I was kind of an adaptive entrepreneur. I I I kinda started figuring out and seeing things that weren't working well in the business we were in which host, providing public health to a 1000000 people with a budget of a dollar per person per year. Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:25]: And you have to figure out how to use that, which is business, mode so that you got the best bang for your buck, which is business in a sense. One of the most interesting things was I was The chief of service for one of the provinces of Cameroon, the northwest province, and I would go to these meetings and listen to the other chiefs of service talking about how they weren't getting anything done because their vehicles were always broken down. And it's very interesting because we had a hodgepodge of vehicles, Some gifts from the Canadian government, some from, UNICEF. They're all different. 3 Land Rovers, 2 Volkswagen buses, Renault Jeep, but, you know, whatever. And And I immediately realized our life blood was these vehicles because we had a huge territory and a lot of our work was going out on dirt roads. 45 clicks are 45 kilometers, you know, to a health center for our staff to run an immunization clinic, whatever it was. And I realized listening to these stories and knowing what kind of brutal conditions were there were for the roads and and on these vehicles, that We had to do something different and we had 2 drivers who were mechanics and I thought, you know, we got 2 mechanics. Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:42]: Why don't we just dig a hole and rather than we had no lift, so we dug a a pit And rolled the vehicle, you know, got a little built a little kind of affair that protected the, you know, just a tin roof and I drive in over the pit And we changed our oil, rotated our tires. Never we lost 15 minutes of of we had 15 minutes of downtime in 3 years on our vehicles because vehicle maintenance. I never owned I hadn't owned a vehicle to that point, but I realized That could. It's in Montreal. Walked to work, and I didn't need a vehicle. But I realized that that was our lifeblood. And if we didn't have that, we would be like the other characters I was dealing with at those meetings who had said and complained about the fact that they didn't have anything. Anyway, and then you know you start to look and then we were running. Dr. Robert Berke [00:05:31]: My my predecessor had started small dispensaries in our health centers because people couldn't afford medication home. And the local pharmacies. It was impossible. No one could afford it. So I looked at it and said, but we've got 27 of these these maternities and delivering babies and seeing kids and 2 dispensaries. Why don't we open our own pharmacy, so to speak, and have them in every one? So we over 2 years did that and We did it on a cost plus basis so that we just earned enough per malaria medication or whatever it was To pay for us getting more. We weren't trying to run a profit. We were just trying to cover our transportation costs. Dr. Robert Berke [00:06:14]: So the price was like very affordable for people. And we were and it was so it was so affordable that actually I had one of the The missionary doctors at a local hospital who used to make their money on selling them tell me that I was ruining his business, you know, because we we were doing this and we were getting what we needed to our, you know, our residents out there at a very, very low cost. And it was a very complex business because we were Supplying pharmaceuticals. Now, my dad was a pharmacist but it didn't help me at all. I mean, this was a totally different operation. Made some mistakes, Had a guy stealing, you know, you have all kinds of things going on there. But in general, when I left, the World Health Organization copied that for a province in Nigeria and one of the guys who had been working with me was involved with them. And he had this novel idea of just low cost, Low profit margin. Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:12]: Just, you know again, just figuring it out how how to do it. So when I came Celeste Berke [00:07:18]: Well, this adaptive entrepreneurship. Right? So you're in this place. You're 23? Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:26]: No. I was, like, 25, 26, 27 maybe. Celeste Berke [00:07:29]: Yeah. 26, 27 years old, having learned Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:32]: Never run a business in my life. Never, home You know, like, I I worked summers, you know, teaching swimming at a summer camp or, you know, whatever. I I Celeste Berke [00:07:40]: never Right. Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:41]: You know? Celeste Berke [00:07:41]: But you also deal with what a lot of us deal with in sales, which product aside, right, whatever the Canadian government's intentions were, you run up against the buyer, we'll say, the individuals with Mhmm. Who live there. Right? The people of Cameroon, who this is how they've done it for however long. They've got the goiters and all of the worms in their eyes, all of these issues. Why make a change? So talk to us about because there's this whole, like, change management process or change influence. How were you able to come in and say, we wanna partner with you and make all these changes because of x y z. Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:24]: Oh well, I I I had the good fortune of having a very large staff of local folks who knew the local arrangement and we weren't, You know, we weren't doing brain surgery, we were just making sure that babies got delivered safely in our, home. We have maternities in 27 little communities, and we wanted to make sure babies got and women want to have a home delivery. That wasn't a big sell. Okay? Celeste Berke [00:08:53]: Well, I'm assuming was there a high, infant mortality rate? Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:57]: Mortality rate? Of course. Those countries have very high infant mortality rates Because of death in the 1st year of life, which is all of the story which we'll get to. But basically, there was another issue. You, when you had your your little girl, you know, went into labor and drove to the hospital and, you know, had a baby, you know, after a little while. Well, a lot of these women are walking 15 or 20 miles from outlying communities which this health center that we had served. The midwives were excellent. They were all trained and could deliver, they delivered a lot of babies, but you're having women. So we decided, you know, this is not a great idea. Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:37]: Why don't we build some rudimentary structures near the health host. Where the women could come maybe a couple of days before we ex you know, they think they're due and they would they would be very close to what they lived in, You know, in their villages and we wouldn't have babies being born on the the way in and we wouldn't have babies being born in. And so all of our health centers built the we had health committees who built these, you know, very rudimentary structures where women could come early and have a bed, And also cook and then wait and then go into the maternity, have a safe delivery, and then go home. And again, just Yeah. Figuring out what, you know, the simple things you need to do to get a better outcome in a situation where for years, it was, you know, it was what it was. We had the maternity there, they were all clean, they were all you could smell the disinfectant, I mean it was, We made sure and those, you know, it was amazing how very, very proper those places were, much different than What these women delivered in in their villages, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was They had to get there and so we figured and there was no transportation. They're walking on paths, you know, through, high grassland because we lived in a high grassland area, Savannah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:01]: But still, they're walking, you know, who knows how how far. And so that was another issue. Then of course, there's the issue of their kids. No one wants their kids to die. Convincing them to get an immunization was not difficult. Getting them to have an immunization, you know, so we had to figure out ways to to get the immunizations out to them and it was all just, You know, you're talking about what I do now and what was done there on the sell. I'm telling you, selling someone now To get a COVID vaccine is a lot more difficult than talking to one of those folks in Cameroon to get their kids vaccinated so they don't die of measles or whooping cough or polio or whatever else. They were dying of tetanus, whatever else, and I've seen it all. Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:51]: You know, rabies, all these things. Celeste Berke [00:11:54]: And, Cameron, you probably had so as sellers and and you have this yourself. We've talked about it, right, on on your buying committee. It's yourself, the, you know, the owner, the partners, sometimes the practice manager. Right leg decisions are no longer made by 1. It's usually a committee committee decision. Whereas in Cameroon, probably the influence of, I'm assuming, those vaccinations vaccinations, and changing that outcome is getting an evangelist. Right? Someone who truly understands, also speaks the language, knows the culture, who's then infiltrating these small pockets to really become this evangelist of, hey, everybody. Let's get on board to do this, and then you get another evangelist and another and another and Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:39]: home We got around that by creating health committees in each. And you're finding some locals in each community village who were interested in, you know, improving things and which meant water supplies meant latrines meant, you know, all kinds of things. And they were instrumental in putting the message out, but it was my job as the, you know, The the big kahuna, so to speak, to go, you know, walk come in there and I walked into some of those places a couple of times a year, you know, and I would visit all my health centers on a monthly basis just to meet with the health committees to try and give them Very rudimentary understanding of why these things were being done, why, you know, you You know, there is a very interesting expression in in English, which I won't get to, but you don't crap where you eat. You know? Well, there it was Yep. You've gotta deal with human waste because it contaminates the water which creates the diarrheal disease which kills your kid before they're 1 year old. And so we had a huge process of these committees digging community latrines, you know, incredible. You know, 20 feet deep, 3 feet wide, 6 feet long, covered over, dot dot, you know, the whole I mean, little Yeah. You know? These were Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:04]: Very simple. Celeste Berke [00:14:05]: We talk about it a lot in the sense of, right, there's there's a business problem. So in this sense, off the top of my head, it's like health in safety. It's like you you can't fix it immediately. Right? It's a Mhmm. Epidemic. It is the health and safety of a community, and then you have the impacts. Right. The death. Celeste Berke [00:14:21]: You have the the numbers, right, the impacts to the family, what's happening. But then you also have this root cause, which is what? Your your team was working in all of these 3 buckets. Right? But as salespeople, all we are is, like, well, if we can just come in and Fix This One Thing. It's going to fix everything else. Well, it yes. Fixing the water supply, but also then you've got, you know, the immunizations and all that, like, all come together in order to fix this big problem. Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:46]: Of course. But, you know, I see in my, In my work now, I see a lot of physicians who travel overseas to those places and Work for 3 weeks in some hospital fixing hernias or doing this or doing that. The reality is they They feel good when they come home. Okay? And they've helped 20 people, you know. When you look at the problem when I was there, and we'll get away from this Because I'm just using it as an example of how I approach things. You're looking at massive problems that have very simple solutions That require, understanding the root problem and getting at it. Sure. Fixing someone's goiter is marvelous, you know, for that 1 person. Dr. Robert Berke [00:15:40]: Fixing the water supply for a village or a community Is is is incredibly, impactful. And I can tell you that our little hospital was empty when I left of cases of whooping cough and measles and polio and everything because we Had a very simple solution, get to the people who needed what they needed and get what we and it was it was but again, it was a business solution at looking at what we needed to do to get to the root cause of what was going on and what was the real problem. The the, most obvious problems you could fix, but you would fix them 1 at a time. The root problems, you could make a huge difference in the life of that community or from a business sense in in how, the outcomes looked. And so That was a tremendous lesson for me because when I came back to the United States, I went to, you know, the school of public health for a year, but then I went into private practice Which is business and my partner and I had to run a business. We had to buy I have a facility. We bought 2 actually and ran 2 practice, had to employ staff. And, oh, there's a learning process there and The mistakes you make and the things you learn and fascinating. Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:03]: Fascinating. Celeste Berke [00:17:04]: So you went quick story. You were living in Canada, 80 acre farm, doctor by day, farmer by night and weekends, started your family, moved to the States Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:20]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:17:20]: 40 Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:21]: years ago. Quebec was trying to separate and my partner left and home. Left me with the whole practice and 2 2 offices and whatever else, it wasn't gonna happen and so we basically, At the time, if you were selling, you were selling into a buyer's market, not a seller's market, and we left with almost nothing. You know, 3 kids, 1 6 6 week old, you and your sister who are 5 4 5 or something like that. I Celeste Berke [00:17:48]: was 2. I was 2. Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:51]: 82. You were born in 79. You were 3. Celeste Berke [00:17:53]: 3. Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:54]: Almost 3. Okay. It didn't matter. You were 2 going on 15 anyway at the time, if I remember correctly. But I came here and I had a job. I I I I was to be the, health commissioner for the county. So I had a salary, but I wanted to open a a private practice. But again, had to start all over again with, you know, No way in in in we we had not much money coming here because we'd given everything away just for to cover the costs of or the mortgage or what was left and it came with, yeah, $10,000 or something like that. Dr. Robert Berke [00:18:28]: Anyway, but we didn't owe anything and I just started up. But it was 5 years working all by myself, delivering a 100 babies a year, working, you know, 7 days a week. No. It wasn't all 7 days a week. I still got out and ran, and I still had all my kids went to their games and did everything, but still It was I I was busy, but I I built a small business, took on a partner for another 5 years or 10 years, I Forget. And then he left, took on another partner, then then we were in business. Then we decided we're we're gonna expand because Celeste Berke [00:19:06]: Hold on one second. Because I always ask the guest, and, we haven't gotten into that yet. This is a different, a little bit of a different episode. It's not a not a short. This is gonna be a 2 parter. So I wanna talk about the first hushing in in this because I think it goes into what you just said. So those 1st 5 years and something I've always admired about you and you and I talk about it. Definitely a couple times a week is this concept of your mindset and where to focus and, like, how to stay in your swim lane. Celeste Berke [00:19:40]: So talk to me about, a, where you learned this practice of betting on yourself, but also this, like, edge, your sales edge of, like, having this mindset that is, for the most part, like, unshakable. Coming here and there right around Ironman time. It gets a little dicey, but Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:00]: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, there are a couple of things. One is I was very fortunate in in one sense. I started practicing medicine in Canada And that that was very unfortunate experience because I can remember, and this is one of those seminal memories I remember, I walked out in my waiting room in this office in Knowlton, Quebec. And sitting in the waiting room was were 2 women side by side chatting, you know. 1 worked at the local Clairol plant earning $7.50 an hour, house. Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:39]: And when was the wife of the CEO of Bombardier, you know, Ski Doo Snowmobile. They make airplanes. They make subway cars. They they make things that Make them very wealthy. And they owned a very, very, very, very nice place just outside of town. But they both had a little blue card in their hand, which was their ticket to get in to see me. And that was it. I had no need to as to who is paying me whatever else. Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:07]: There was a single payer source. So when I moved here, I had no concept of that. And so when I started, I would see everybody. And a lot of the docs wouldn't see the Medicaid, you know, the ones that and I remember I delivered, oh, I don't know how many babies Where we were getting paid, you know, very little to for the no one would touch them. But from my background was you That's not what you do with people. Well, the world has a funny way of coming back to to look after you because at a certain point, Suddenly the reimbursement per delivery went from $2.50 to $1600 a delivery. It was nothing that I had banked on or thought about. I was just doing what I was doing and suddenly those people who I had Given service to who knew that they were being told that they, you know, they weren't good enough to go somewhere else or whatever else, We're my patients. Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:08]: And I had built a very large, you know, practice, you know, fine, I mean, I I don't remember what I was earning, it didn't matter. We never you never missed a meal. You never went for, you know, missing for anything. And maybe our vacations house. Shorter and then we didn't go yeah. But but we anyway. Celeste Berke [00:22:27]: No. I mean, we lived modestly. Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:30]: Yes. But but That's the way it was. But basically I had built this rather large practice and I think the reputation also was we saw everybody I looked after everybody. And the moral compass, you know, drove the whole thing. And the hard work, you know, I get called at 2 the morning to go deliver a baby, and I was gonna get paid peanuts for. It didn't matter. That was my job, and that's what I did. And and the patients really appreciated it, and that was the service I was offering. Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:58]: And I did it with a smile, and it was, you know, it was just one of those things. And they're still my patients now many years later, and the kids are my patients. Celeste Berke [00:23:06]: And But you have the lesson of this, like, mindset of even when it's tough. Right? Not missing workouts. Even still, 5th 50 years later, how where does that stem from of not letting the Don't know. The outside forces infiltrate here. Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:26]: Don't know. I don't know. It just there were there were a couple of things that that drove part of it. And I I I've always liked exercise. You know, I was a college athlete and afterwards I ran and, you know, I ran 5 marathons. I skied, you know, ski marathon. I mean, I just I like the I wasn't fast. I wasn't winning in my age group. Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:48]: I just was out there doing it because it was healthy. And the other thing was I knew that if I walked into the office weighing 300 pounds smelling a cigarette smoke and tried to talk to someone about not smoking and, you know, staying healthy, it doesn't work. And so I I always knew you had to live, You know the story if you were going to do it and going to teach it and not For any other reason, but that's the example you have to set when you're in this business. That was just my mindset. Now, Am I a little bit nutso about exercise? I don't I don't think so. I just like what how I feel when I exercise every day. First of all, It's fairly stressful listening to 20 or 30 people in a day unload on you, you know, about, you know, whatever they've got. Some of them just for coming in for a physical but some with some significant issues including having to tell them they've got a serious illness or that they need some interventions or they need to change their lifestyle. Dr. Robert Berke [00:24:56]: And I've always found that having a bit of exercise Usually early in the day if you were can remember me at the year making the peanut butter sandwiches when you guys woke up and I had already run 6 miles, it was because, a, that was the only time of day when I knew I had some time, and b, it set me up for the rest of the day to be, It took a little edge off. You know? I I was I had a little endorphin buzz. I felt a little more relaxed people. I didn't get as irritable as you can get when you're tired and, you know, and sometimes I I Come home after delivering a baby at 3 in the morning and know that I was gonna be up in an hour and a half or 2 hours so I go for a run. And by 6 or 7 at night, it was a long day, but still, I sometimes have to get up that night and do it again. But There's a certain discipline in in in my life, which is getting some exercise every day. I swim today, by the way. My group, you know? You know, I I'm just saying, it's like it's Celeste Berke [00:25:58]: just 1 moment. Years old. We're still exercising on the daily. Although you're you're coming down from your latest Ironman. Yeah. Dr. Robert Berke [00:26:07]: Ironman. And then COVID about a week a month later. Yeah. That that was that was tough. Yeah. Anyway. Celeste Berke [00:26:13]: You see problems every day. In in the sales world, many people talk about their product. Right? So back in the heyday of drug reps coming in, pharmaceutical reps coming in, talking all about their products, whatnot. I mean, you've seen it, all of the product pitching. And there's a slew of sales advice out there, and we can get to all the advice because you see it as well. But I think there's a lot of parallels here. You know, there's sales advice out there that People are still practicing pitching their product and putting their agenda on you. And then there's those of us that are seeking problems. Celeste Berke [00:26:48]: Are there problems that I can solve here? And I'd love to know as a practitioner, every day you hear so many problems. How are you weeding through to figure out, a, what's most important? Is this person full of BS? And, also, how are you going to influence or help them see that they have to change Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:11]: Yeah. Before Celeste Berke [00:27:12]: some really bad stuff happens. Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:14]: Well, first of all, let's talk about the drug reps for a minute because They come in, you know, and pitch their stuff, and some of them are pitching at you a me too, and it's already 3 or 4 iterations that we've heard from other companies. Home. And I feel bad for them because it's it's a tough job. And but we've gotten to the point now they come in and they just They just bring us live and we chat about we chat about their kids and everything else because they know they don't have to you know? And they leave us some samples then go away because it's, Yeah. That whole it it almost irksome when they come in and start pitching at you, hey, hey, I just want 1 prescription out of you. Can you just try it while, you know, like, give me a break. You know, the it's the old hard sell kind of stuff. Celeste Berke [00:27:58]: Watch Watch Painkillers for anybody out there. You'll see exactly. It makes sense. Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:02]: Yeah, I know. It's it's just but anyway, talking about What I have to deal with is where you're going, where I get a patient coming in and there's a couple of one is sometimes They need a lifestyle change. Those are the hardest because you're you're looking at ingrained issues that have not gone on just for a day or home. You know, smoking. They've been smoking for 30 years. Or or they're looking at a history of if they keep smoking, it's gonna be 30 or 40 years before they give it up. At which point, they're gonna have some significant problems. None of which they have now. Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:40]: And so they can't understand why you're chatting about it except you have a dataset that's like from 1960 on of why they should stop. Then you have the other stuff which is a little bit more difficult, And that is the preventive care that you have to encourage people to get. Women, you know, mammograms, pap smears, here. And then you start talking about, ew, colonoscopies, you know, and and and to try and convince people to do those. And then, of course, now with our dear friend COVID around immunizations and the newer iterations of flu vaccine and RSV vaccine and all of this stuff, And they're onto the internet and Facebook and all the craziness out there, and you're you're having to spend all the time Trying to undo really bad information that people are getting to get them to understand why it's important for them. That's very difficult. And there are strategies that you have to use, some of which are easy. If you've got a patient who trusts you it's very easy. Dr. Robert Berke [00:29:44]: They just come in and say, hey, I I've heard about this new vaccine. Do you think I should do it? And you talk with them about it and they're fine. You know, because it's a long standing relationship. Here. But then you got people who come in and they are not gonna they don't want any part of this. And they're the toughest because you spend a lot of time with them and a lot of them you don't get to go with them. And the strategies vary from just saying, hey, you know, go ahead. Do what you wanna do. Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:10]: I'm telling you A 1000000 people died of COVID over the last year and a half in the United States. You've got some risk factors. I think you're making a big mistake, but You can't do anything about it because they saw on the Internet and da da da da. You know? And and it's impossible. And then you have the other People who you can convince with some strategies. I have one which I love to use and and I'll explain this to you. You know, we have now 33, Four possible issues with colonoscopy. First of all, colonoscopy is life saving. Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:43]: It's life saving if if if, you know, used appropriately. Celeste Berke [00:30:47]: A little p a little PSA. The age was moved up from 50 to 45. Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:52]: That's right. Because we're seeing younger and younger people with colon cancer. Celeste Berke [00:30:56]: I'm really excited because my husband turns 45 before I do, and I can't wait for him to go through that before me this coming Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:06]: year. Yes. But do you know what? It's lifesaving, and it's the only test we can do That gives you 7 years. It tells you literally you don't have to worry for 7 years. You know, we were doing PAP smears on women every year which is a waste of time, but Anyway, now it's every 3 years or 5 years depending on your HPV positive or not. But we didn't know but this is 7 years. And then we have Cologuard, you can get it in a box the mail, you poop and it's sending it's good for 3 years. Or we can give you a fit kit and you wipe a little poop on it, it's good for a year. Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:36]: People won't do it. They just don't wanna do it because it's poop, you know, and so no matter what you do, you can't convince them to do it. So I figured out a strategy. I bring a little sandwich baggy in, and I say, you wanna wear one of these on your side, you know, for the rest of your life? That's what happens if you have a colonoscopy. You have this sandwich baggy on you. Oh boy, I I have convinced a whole bunch of people. But again, you have to figure out ways To get people to go because you're trying to get people to do things that they really don't want to do even though it's in their best interest, and that's a very hard sell. Now in in in a business sense, it's important for us to do that, by the way. Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:20]: That's the other side of this which People don't realize most doctors are involved in risk sharing arrangements when If you have a a a pool of people, let's say men and women over 50, should have colonoscopies. Well, if you attain a certain percentage, the insurers have a kicker for you. I I'm talking serious kicker. You know? Like, Real money. And, the same thing with diabetics, if they get their, you can enhance your your your revenues, which are important because they pay the staff, they pay your salary, whatever else, by about, 15 to 20%. So it's really important to get that message across. Home. From a business point of view it's important, but also deep down these measures are Right. Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:12]: They're the standard Yep. You know, states public health service and national guidelines which are important for people to do. It's not they're so important that They're incentivizing us to incentivize our patients. It was so it is so lucrative for doctors to do this That we were actually giving patients Celeste Berke [00:33:36]: Gift cards. Right? Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:38]: Gift cards to happy. To go and have this done. Yeah. Why not? Right. I mean, it's we you're you're incentivizing them to do it, which for you, there's an incentive, but also it's In their best interest. Celeste Berke [00:33:50]: Right. There's no negative if if you see if you save a life from early detection from a colonoscopy, you can look at yourself in the mirror that night, versus selling someone a vehicle they don't need just to line your own pockets. Like, there's a Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:04]: Of course. Of course. But I don't know how many I mean, a lot of the insurers have gift cards as well. Even with those, it's hard to get people to go. You know? It's It's Celeste Berke [00:34:14]: Well, it's the same it's the same thing in business. You're trying to change I mean, for you, it's individuals, but you also have the team. It's trying to change a culture often that a product is going to change. You're trying to change behavior. We've always I mean, how many times did I tell you in my former career? Like, we've always done it this way. And I'm like, yeah. There's so much revenue opportunity or whatnot. It's just like, no. Celeste Berke [00:34:39]: Because change is hard as humans, and now you add in that personal factor, and it becomes like, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I don't wanna do it. It's too hard. Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:51]: Well, on another on another basis, in 1999 I had some cowboy come to me and say, you know, we've got this computer program you could use in your office, you know. And I looked at it and it was really not very good. And I saw that there was a a conference in New York City on computers and medicine. And I I knew that this was, you know, coming but I because it was all paper and we had gone from paper to We were dictating our notes and someone was, speaking of business, we went from handwriting our notes, which was just brain dead Celeste Berke [00:35:31]: because nobody can read your notes, Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:33]: yes? That's right. To dictating our notes, having someone type them, send them back on sticky sheets, we would stick them in the chart. High costing us $40,000 a year, but it was time for us, you know, so it well, I went to this Celeste Berke [00:35:48]: Well, hold on. Let's. I think this is a good seed for episode number 2. Let's talk about the transition of technology in medicine and someone trying to sell you a tech solution. And what happened because I feel like I was part of this journey as well I busted my face open and had to get stitches at your office during all this. So stay tuned if you're listening. Join us for part 2, lessons in life sales and medicine with doctor Robert Berke.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. This is Celeste on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm joined with Nichole Barker, and I'm so excited to jump in today. She just told me off air, sales managers are going to hate me, so we know she's going to be drafting some juicy bits here. She was actually requested by the whole gap selling team to come on this podcast because she is one of the longest standing gap selling supporters out there. And I love for her to share not only her journey. She was a gap sell Kenan contestant in twenty twenty and learned a lot from that, but has gone on. Celeste Berke [00:00:37]: And literally almost every time we have a webinar, she is front and center. No stranger to raising her hand to jump in. So, Nichole, tell us a little bit about your current situation, your current role, and what, this is the only time we're gonna say it, what your product is. Nichole Barker [00:00:52]: Yeah. Definitely. So Nichole Barker with a company called DMG, digital marketing group, Based out of Portland, Oregon, but I am in Cornfield Northwest Ohio. So if you have any questions about corn or soybeans, I can try to answer them. But yeah. Yeah. I was on Gap. So Keenan back in 2020 and have learned a lot. Nichole Barker [00:01:15]: Digital marketing group, I work with some small, medium, large sized businesses on on their marketing. I will come in, do some consulting work with you to figure out what is the real problem. What is the what is the thing that's stopping you from doing x, y, and z? Where is the juggle. You know, according to Gap Selling, what's the business problem? I figure that stuff out and try to do it quickly. And then, you know, I can do some consulting and you just you get me, and then I also can provide marketing services to help you reach your future status. Attribution, growth, you know, whatever that looks like. I will help with those things. So Celeste Berke [00:01:59]: Awesome. Yeah. That's Well, thank you. And we just learned that I am your elder by, I don't know, 2 months or something. Nichole Barker [00:02:05]: Yeah. Just just just a few days. Celeste Berke [00:02:08]: Do it's so interesting when you arrive at a certain age. Right? Women over the age of, let's say, 40, we won't give it away, and lens starts to change. And I know for me Yes. I have accelerated my learning. I've learned more in the past 3 or 4 years than I had in the 10 prior. And it sounds like you were telling me earlier 2020 was your biggest sales year yet and also just a huge catalyst for you to start developing your learning. So let's dive in a little bit and talk about what makes you unique as a seller. When we when we first started chatting off air, talked about being in that marketing space. Celeste Berke [00:02:48]: Right? And now moving into a seller's role. What have you learned? What is your sales edge? Share that with us. Nichole Barker [00:02:58]: Yeah. So I've learned, like you, I learned a whole lot in the last 3 years. And it's you know, marketing, I have realized, is like dog years. Anything that happens in marketing, it's 7 to 10 years ahead of the last year before, the year prior. So with that being said, I sell marketing, which is great. It's my favorite thing to do, and I think my sales edge is that I am authentically sassy. What I mean by that is when you get me, you you get me. You don't get different versions of me. Nichole Barker [00:03:37]: If you run into me in the grocery store, it's gonna be the same exact Nichole as if we were on a sales call together. I had a manager a few years ago when I first started doing cold calling. She said, Nihcole, you're looking a little limp there. It's time to put your sassy pants on. And so I've kind of brought that with me everywhere I go, and I put my sassy pants on every day. And Because of that, I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations, which if you haven't read the book, Fierce Conversations, I can't remember who the author is. Celeste Berke [00:04:13]: Okay, fierce conversations. Nichole Barker [00:04:15]: Alright. Fierce conversations. I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations with my clients, my potential clients, My client said I'm about to fire, and I think as women, we need to remember it's okay to be sassy. It's okay. Celeste Berke [00:04:32]: So Yeah. Interesting. I not sure that would be the advice I'd give my 4 year old. I'm actually trying to, like, tone down the sass, right, in that in that age group. But, yes, as we get older, we are often told, be that good girl, be poised, be professional. Right. And that's something that I've been working through a lot myself. So my mentor at ASG, our general manager, Rachel, whom you know and you've talked to and have seen over the years, will tell me that all the time. Celeste Berke [00:05:02]: The Celeste that's on stage, that's on video that's on the podcast. When you're on sales calls, she'll say you're presenting that same stage presence on your call. What the f are you doing? Just be normal. And I was like, what? I am? I feel like I'm back in that corporate role of, like, let me put my suit on. Let me act like I'm forming and using big words and the language, whereas people truly, and you and I were chatting about this, just want to view as a human. See the imperfections and that you pause during a sales call, and you're really taking time to think about before you respond versus when you get the calls and it's a straight up script that someone is reading and you know you're just a number to them. Nichole Barker [00:05:46]: Mhmm. Do. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it when you're in that sales call and when they can see the when the potential client can see that you're really thinking about, and you're really listening to what they're saying. And you come back at them with, wait a minute, But you said this a few minutes ago. What are you saying now? That doesn't make any sense. Help me figure that out because it doesn't make sense. Nichole Barker [00:06:18]: And being able to have that, like I said, that fierce conversation with the client, basically, calm them out on their bullshit Because there's so much sometimes that will happen, and you have to be able to and willing to Celeste Berke [00:06:35]: do yeah. Nichole Barker [00:06:35]: Call them out, and you have to be willing. The other piece of that is you have to be willing to walk away. If there is not that problem, Hey. It was great to talk with you. I don't think you're a good fit for me, and I am not a good fit for you. I wish you the best. If there ever comes a time where, you know, you need me or if I can, you know, refer you to one of my colleagues or, hey. I'm here for that. Nichole Barker [00:06:59]: Right? That that goes back to that authenticity, you know, that I care. I want you to succeed, but You're not a fit for me. Right. Celeste Berke [00:07:07]: And that's okay. Dating. So I went on 62 first dates in 1 year once, and every single one was this is this gonna be the one? Right? Like, trying to make it fit Yeah. And jumping right to the future state in all of this instead of telling myself it is okay if this one goes away. Like, there will be more. Right? As soon as my dad always told me, it's like the shooter's mentality. Because I was 36 years old crying. From age 34 to 36 was really tough dating and not knowing what was gonna happen and being a new new. Celeste Berke [00:07:47]: Tease, like, shooter's mentalities. It's like the next one, the next one, the next one, the next one. And I don't think that is tying yourself to the outcome. It is trying to say whatever the outcome is, like, it's kind of just a next, and it's a next. And I had that massive shift earlier this year, and I'm sure you have in your career as well, where you get so attached to the freaking outcome that it ruins it, like, ruins our life temporarily. Your relationship is ruined. Your day is ruined. You don't wanna eat or maybe you wanna overeat. Celeste Berke [00:08:22]: I can't be present. My mood has changed because you're so attached to this one didn't go in, and my husband Miles said it on the last podcast. That prospect is saying no and allowing me the opportunity to go find another. Yes. It's like, Nichole Barker [00:08:39]: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also try to I I take my deals very seriously, and I take them personal. But I also know the person on the other side of the computer or the Celeste Berke [00:08:56]: the other side of the table. Nichole Barker [00:08:56]: They're a person too, and they have things going on in their lives that might affect our deal right now. It might affect their viewpoint of me right now, and that's okay. At the end of the day, hey. Great. I wanna leave you better than before you met me, and, you know, that's just me. Again, that authenticity and being sassy and And being willing and able to say, alright. Great. Let's move forward or, okay, we just need to leave it. Celeste Berke [00:09:28]: Aw. I love that. To have arrived at that place. And interesting tell us before we jump to the next question, what has had you so because you have changed jobs since 20 twenty, you said. Mhmm. What has had you, I guess, intertwined within the gap selling methodology that you've hung on and you keep trying to find ways to implement it in your day to day. What had you doing that? Nichole Barker [00:09:54]: I think it's really the Almost the psychology of it, understanding that there is something happening on the back end. There is something that is fueling this Loss of money or loss of time, whatever it is. You know, I was telling you about a manager I had had previous who was just, But, you know, she did teach me one thing. In sales, it's all about, at the end of the day, the last thing that really matters is how are you gonna make the money, how are you gonna save them time? And with gap selling, it's figuring out where are they losing their time, How are they losing money? How much money are they losing? And then how much or how or why do they wanna be in the future and just really keeping the idea in my head all the time of where are they now, where do they wanna go, even in my personal life, where am I now, where do I wanna go? You know? And then saying, okay. Well, here's these 2 pieces. For me personally, I'm making this much. Celeste Berke [00:11:14]: Yeah. Nichole Barker [00:11:14]: I wanna be making this much. How do we get there? What's keeping me from getting there? And then putting together a plan for it and saying, alright, listen, I need more tools or I need different tools or I need to get myself focused or I need to walk away from my desk for 20 minutes every hour just to refocus and recalibrate. Celeste Berke [00:11:39]: Yeah. It's usually that state. And I posted about this the other day, a grocery store example of I hate going to the grocery store. I loathe it. It makes me very upset on the weekends. I will bitch and moan and walk around my house, which I have to tone down the swearing. I'm not like I mean, Kenan spares a lot. I'm like Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:12:00]: Obviously, I've started swearing more now that I've been in ASG. And my daughter, I've caught her multiple times this weekend. She was like, bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. I was like, oh, that's me. And we wanna talk about this place of, I can't see I'm going to restore all of these woes around it, yet I have not taken the leap to do pickup or delivery because it's, like, not that untenable yet yet. Right? I mean, I'm making everybody else's life miserable for the weekend when I talk about it, and then I don't wanna do it at the grocery start sweating. Celeste Berke [00:12:33]: Anything that goes back to when I was pregnant, I wouldn't I did do pickup when I was pregnant. I just was hanging over the groceries, the cart. Like, I I couldn't. I was so exhausted. And so that state was untenable, but I think you're you know, you've hit the nail on the head here where be constantly have to be rooted in the current state. Everybody loves to live in this future state where we all make $1,000,000 or more, and we win the lottery. Like, we're beach vacation. All that stuff is great, but what's happening in the current state, and what's this difference? What's the gap? And am I willing to make a change? Do which oftentimes is no for our buyers. Celeste Berke [00:13:12]: They aren't because they haven't been in their muck long enough in order to realize now I wanna make a change. Yeah. Alright. So so my last question here is your sales career. There's a lot of people. Right? Put put on the sassy pants, whatever advice people wanna give you. Outbound is dead. No. Celeste Berke [00:13:30]: It's not. Now it's this. Don't write an email with this. Now it's like, noise is coming at us all of the time. Nichole Barker [00:13:36]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:13:37]: What is a sales myth that you want to bust? Nichole Barker [00:13:42]: Okay. So I have 1 salesman I wanna challenge, and it correlates with the one that I wanna bust. Okay? And like I said off air, sales managers and sales leaders are probably going to, like, hate me for this, don't shoot me it works for me it may not work for everybody else. The one I want to challenge is everybody's a client. Everybody's a customer. Absolutely not. I do not want everybody as a customer, as a client. Not everybody is ready and able to do business with me. Nichole Barker [00:14:23]: I know it sounds it sounds a little cocky, but it's not because I can back it up. I'm confident in what I can do. That kind of goes along with quantity over quality. I think it's silly. I had a manager one time tell me I had to sit down for 4 hours And make 100 phone calls and that it's a numbers game and that I'm gonna be lucky, and I'm gonna get 5 appointments. I would rather spend time researching who I wanna do business with And then target those specific people because I can solve their problem. I know what I know what I think the business problem is probably going to be based on the things that I know already, the clients that I've worked with before, why would I wanna go out and call 100 people that do underwater basket weaving in Northwest Ohio. Doesn't make sense. Nichole Barker [00:15:30]: I wanna call this one specific like, for example, the HVAC industry. I know it really well. I wanna call people in that industry. I'm gonna call those businesses because I understand what their business problem is. I also understand, Because I've worked with enough of them that there are some technical issues that they have, and I know the tools they're using, and I can say, hey. You know? We need to do this and this. So to make a very long story short, not everybody is your customer, And it is kind of a numbers game, but it's not a numbers game if Celeste Berke [00:16:05]: you do it the right way. It it can be a numbers game if you're swimming in a fully stocked pond of your ICP and individuals or organizations that you don't have a business problem. If you're just going out there in wide blue ocean of, like, anybody and everybody. No. Right? This is what leads to burnout. This is why reps get, like, so pissed off. And we'll see it time and time again. I had a call with a team the other day where they're not getting we're not booking any meetings. Celeste Berke [00:16:34]: So our it's actually the CEO. Just told us we need to make more calls. And I'm like, I don't know. Like Nichole Barker [00:16:43]: Yeah. It's like the definition, Yeah. The definition of insanity. Right? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You know, if if you're just making more phone calls, will you eventually get somebody, you know, that says, oh, yeah, I need to talk to you? Sure. But if you called the right people at a time where they probably, You know, they need your help, and there is a business problem that relates to what you can solve. If you are confident In what you solve, and you you know your stuff. Instead of getting Celeste Berke [00:17:24]: you're fine. The dog pun. Yeah. Yes. What you're saying. Nichole Barker [00:17:29]: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But instead of getting those 5 meetings for a 100 phone calls, you know, you can make 20 phone calls and get 15 meetings. Celeste Berke [00:17:38]: Do Yeah. I love it. Well, Nichole, individuals can find you on LinkedIn, so I'll make sure that we well, I'll tag you, obviously. Play. It's been such a pleasure pleasure getting to know you more in-depth than just from our webinar. So I appreciate the support and you sharing bring a little bit about the day in the life of a seasoned gap seller and someone who's constantly reinventing themselves tweaking because let's face it, sales is tough. And whatever we can do to aid people so they feel confident and and they're able to put on their sassy pants. Let's do that. Celeste Berke [00:18:14]: So I truly appreciate your conversation today. And remind us one more time, the book. Fierce Nichole Barker [00:18:21]: Fierce Conversations is the book, and I'm so sorry. I came to the author. Celeste Berke [00:18:26]: And I'll link it. So we'll put Conversations. That's an awesome title. Thank you again for your time today. I appreciate it. Nichole Barker [00:18:36]: Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate it too. And if you haven't read Gap Selling, if you haven't been on the trainings, if you haven't been on the Gap in Hours or anything like that, you need to. It will change your thoughts on how to sell, and it will change your thoughts on Things that happen in your life, so read it. Celeste Berke [00:18:58]: There you have it, folks.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. It is Celeste on The Sales Edge Podcast, and today I'm joined by Ben Miles. I will have him introduce himself in a second, but I'm so excited. This is a little bit different of an episode in that we are talking with someone who is in an active of seller's seat, like, in the day to day, the thick of it all on giving some tips on what makes him successful that our sales leadership should listen up to because it's probably going to go against what some of your sellers are telling you. So, Ben, give us a little intro, and I will say Ben and I met through Gap Selling. So when I went through my training certification, Ben was our star student. He raised his hand and went through the buyer's journey exercise, which can be really difficult, but it is a great exercise for those that are in the class, to understand, well, our buyer doesn't wanna be sold to. Celeste Berke [00:00:58]: Right? There's a reason why they're buying, and it's usually a lot of layers deeper than we think. So, Ben, give us a little intro about you. Ben Miles [00:01:08]: Well, thank you, Celeste. I appreciate the warm welcome. I love that class, and I recommend it to, anybody that has the time to take it. I'm an account executive. You know, my day looks like some other account executives who are full cycle, so it it involves prospecting, whether that be email or cold call, and then, of course, running calls for prospects and, also doing a little bit of management on the client side. Celeste Berke [00:01:33]: We joked around a lot when Ben was in the class because his major purchase was a car, so we were diving into the reasons behind him purchasing a car. And what really stood out is how Ben embraced problem centric selling. So a lot of teams and if you're listening, if your team struggles with this as well, they are not alone, our product focused. We see this all the time. Let me try to sell you something. Let me put myself before you and Ben really honed in on this concept of, oh, shit. I need to know what problems I'm selling to before I get on a call. So, Ben, I always ask guests, and I want to hear it because I think this is what makes you this freaking unicorn. Celeste Berke [00:02:18]: Nobody will admit it, but they hate doing what you love. Tell us, what is your sales edge? What makes you unique as a seller? Ben Miles [00:02:29]: I love cold calling. Taking a step back for a second, as a cold caller and and anybody who's listening or watching this, that cold calls, you're in a very, very unique position. How many times a day do you actually approach someone and put them on the spot? All that Cortisol pumping through their body. It's a very interesting place psychologically to be in. You're calling someone who has no clue who you are, Probably doesn't know your company and certainly isn't expecting your call, but what I've found in cold calling and and why I feel it's my sales edge is it It leads to genuine interactions. This isn't something that somebody can type up in an email in wordsmith. It's it's real. It's live. Ben Miles [00:03:12]: It's now. And what I found throughout my career of cold calling is that you really get to the heart of the issues with prospects that are really feeling some type of pain. It allows you to uncover that in a much more efficient manner rather than sending out, you know, tens of Automated emails or even spending the time to personalize emails because at the end of the day, that's really a shot in the dark until you actually hear back from the person confirming That there's some sort of problem or broken process that you can solve. So I feel like cold calling is my my edge. Celeste Berke [00:03:46]: And where did you learn this from that that became, like a skill set or a knack that you had. Where where did that behavior come from? Ben Miles [00:03:55]: Well, I, I got into sales from a real young age. I was 17, and I was working door to door, so I was knocking. Celeste Berke [00:04:02]: Yes. Rejection central. Ben Miles [00:04:05]: That's right. Yep. We we used to joke. We would have a a little, a little stick with us, so they tried to slam the door in front of us. We but in between the door and the door frame. And in a way, it give us a little more time With cold calling, which I got into a couple years later, obviously, anyone can hang up at any time, and sometimes that's for the better. But I got into cold calling early on in my career. And, really, for the past 10 years, it's really what I've been doing in every position. Ben Miles [00:04:28]: It's been the heart of the way that I prospect. I see email as a supplemental piece, but for me, cold calling has been something that's been really important and key in my success. Celeste Berke [00:04:37]: I know we're talking offline about You actually looking at your success on cold calling and in the seat that you're in saying, hey. I I may even adjust my Cadence moving forward because I'm having such success, what would you make if if someone was listening and they didn't wanna hear it, I mean, myself included. Right? I I don't love the cold call. What would you say that adjustment would be from and that you double down on 7 days out of the week? Ben Miles [00:05:09]: Well, I I feel like when when you're typing up emails, as great as it is to be able to sit back and and really get Clear mind and and think through exactly the way that you wanna position a message, whether that be 1 to 1 in a personalized email Or a personalized message of any form, whether that even be over text message or in a cadence where it's automated. I feel like There's a lot of time committing to someone who may or may not actually respond to you, so there's there's no verification that there's any fit. When you're cold calling, you can do that efficiently, and I would argue you can do that very effectively. And you you get that person on the phone. You get that immediate feedback, and you can test your message right there. Celeste Berke [00:05:54]: I love that. Yeah. That's such an interesting way of putting it putting it. And, yes, we spend so much time on, like, here are email sequences, and this is the cadence. We're gonna drop them into this and hope we're using, like, hope. Right? Hope is our strategy when it comes to that. Mhmm. Versus, like you just said, if I'm making a cold call, I get that immediate feedback. Celeste Berke [00:06:12]: It's either a hang up. It's either, like, Heck no or you've piqued their interest enough. When you're talking with individuals, what are you finding that resonates that allows you to have someone hang on the phone. I know that's I'm asking you some of your secret sauce here, but What is something that you do that piques interest? Ben Miles [00:06:34]: Well, I I think it's acknowledging what The call is. Having been cold calling for 10 years, I've bumped my head a lot. I I've learned a lot of what to do, but I've also learned a lot about what not to do. And I think where some folks get lost, myself included, is in trying to obfuscate the call, Whether that be the call live or even a voice mail, you you you wanna be genuine, and you wanna level with that prospect. So I think what generates the interest early on is acknowledging it's Cold call. Very common for me to say, hey, Celeste, it's Ben with XYZ Company. We've never spoken before and this is a cold call. I was just Hoping to get 27 seconds of your time and see if it makes sense to discuss it beyond that point. Ben Miles [00:07:18]: And what I've found is folks appreciate that. In fact, Oftentimes, I'll I'll get thanked for the way that I approach the call because there's a lot of questions swirling in their head when they're getting a call from a number that they don't recognize, Then they hear a name that they don't recognize, and then they hear a company name that they don't recognize. It is right there fight or flight on that call. And that's a little bit about what I was talking about earlier when I said it's very unique what we do as cold callers. You're putting people in fight or flight. So my goal and what I think brings Folks is is to immediately acknowledge it's a cold call. We've not spoken before, but you wanna let them know that you're not the salesperson that's gonna sit there And keep them tied up. That's why I drop in the 27 seconds. Celeste Berke [00:08:00]: Love that too. And I will say for any of you who's listening to audio, I can see why people are like, yes. I will listen to So you have that voice for the phone as well. So I'm sure that that how it's like that radio voice, right, where you're like, yes. Tell me more. So I do I do not have that voice. So I can see how people are like, oh, yeah, Ben. I'll give you those 27 seconds. Celeste Berke [00:08:20]: Interesting. Ben Miles [00:08:21]: Yeah. Thank god I don't prospect with my face. So it it works out well. I can just cold call. Celeste Berke [00:08:26]: Well, that's interesting. In 10 years of cold calling, let's talk about the no's. So something I struggled with as a seller. I mean I think you and I joked via a message a while back when I turned 44. Right? My 44th birthday. I had a tough time up even through earlier this year of of the rejection and taking rejection personally. And I don't know what it was if it was coming on with the ASG, the gap selling team. There's so many badasses. Celeste Berke [00:08:59]: Right? Or you just get to a point in your life where you're like, the nose roll off my back. Right? I I don't let them affect me the way that they used to. I used to take every no so personally because I was so hung up on the outcome. And I'd love to know from you 10 years in, When you get a rejection, when you get a no, how did you overcome that and not let it, like, stop you in your tracks and and allow you to keep going. Ben Miles [00:09:24]: So this might seem like an interesting way of framing it, but but I I really mean it. It's taking that no and looking at the underlying yes. The underlying yes to that no is them saying, Yes. You have my permission to find someone who has a problem that you can solve. So when I get that no, as a human, of course, there's a degree of disappointment. We don't want that. Whether it's a no to my pitch, because my pitch does start off with asking if I can get 27 seconds of their time, or it's it's a no to whatever it is that that I happen to be selling for for a company. But that yes is what drives me. Ben Miles [00:10:06]: And I think reminding yourself that them saying no to you, They're saying yes to you spending your time somewhere where it's spent better and being able to actually help someone. And I think, ultimately, what keeps me going between those nos or in between yeses is being able to real reminding myself constantly, I sell to serve. That's what I really like about what I do, and companies that have good products or services that can solve problems, I wanna be a part of, And I wanna get that message out. So that's that's what keeps me going and and and keeps the wind underneath my wings between those, you know, between yeses. Celeste Berke [00:10:46]: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Super insightful. And what I loved when we first met is you had talked about or what struck me is that you have this concept of, like, I'm a lifelong learner. Right? I'm a student of learning. I love learning about sales, different methodologies, maybe methodologies that you don't like, methodologies You do so this this idea that we're never at the finish line with our learning, and I think that even the books behind you probably Resonate with that. But along the way, we've gotten a lot of bad sales advice or seeing things we don't like, or maybe we just across a point in our life where that no longer serves us. And I like to ask every guest on here what their sales myth is that they wanna bust. Celeste Berke [00:11:32]: So, Ben, What's a myth around sales that you wanna bust? Ben Miles [00:11:38]: That we that everybody has to see the light. The truth is when we're calling or emailing or in any sort of a sales interaction, As a salesperson, we're taught to be hyperaccountable, and I think that's a great thing. And that's bled into my personal life, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that we can't help everybody, Whether the person has a broken process that our solution can solve for Or they don't. It at a certain point, you have to know when to move on. So I think you can get in a cycle Of trying to make something work, that's not gonna work if if you cold call that prospect, which is why I love cold calling so much, is you really can get to the heart of the matter Pretty quickly. In fact, one of my my favorite opening lines for a company I previously sold for was to really hit on the three business problems that we solve for. And I I would just say, look. You know, these are we help, you know, so and so with Problems that that they're facing that are like this, this, or this, are any of those something that your team's facing? No. Ben Miles [00:12:45]: Great. Have a nice day. I I can't help you, but I wish you the best, and and the goal there is to not put yourself in a position where you're trying to say, well well well, maybe we can make it work. We're a salesperson. We're supposed to grease our hair back and and just make things work. That's not always the case, and I think that's a big sales myth That I I think needs to be buzzed. Celeste Berke [00:13:05]: Yeah. Definitely. And and I think you hit on something there. Right? There's that immediate no, you can't help me. No. I'm not interested at Versus when we send emails out into oblivion, and we're like, we don't know because they're not telling us, so we'll keep trying, which probably goes back to that movie with, like, Will Smith. Right? How he was, like, so great on the phone because he learned those nuances of if I don't hang up the phone or if I just press and I'm able to get in more dials. Right? Those the more times you're getting to that no, it's probably getting you to that yes quicker then sitting back and thinking about it and the strategy and what did this person say, and now they gave me a no, etcetera. Celeste Berke [00:13:43]: So you built a suit of armor around that. Well, Ben, any parting words before we leave the podcast on how, you know, really we like to look at Sales leadership often isn't in tune with what is happening in the day to day, right, in the trenches. What's What's working, what's not, what's working for some person. You know, somebody may not work for somebody else. And for all those team members who are telling their VP of sales or CRO, like, Cold calling is dead. Give us some final thoughts on why you believe cold calling is a skill that still needs to be mastered. Ben Miles [00:14:23]: I I really believe that it is the most efficient way to fill your pipeline, And I I feel like if you do it right, you can accelerate your sales cycle. You're spending your time with folks who Quite literally picked up the phone, stayed on the call, you were able to ask the most important questions, And ultimately determine if the pain or or problem that they're facing as an organization is something that your company can help with. And When I started to pitch that way, I had a number of prospects where I didn't even have to close them on the cold call and ask them for a time to meet. They asked me, and when we met for the meeting, my colleague asked, you know, you know, what made you take the call today? And it was Ben understood the challenges that we were facing because I offered up those pains on the front end of the call. So cold calling is not dead. It's a way to make things more efficient and bring in the kinds of buyers who are actually gonna buy, even if that means saying bye to some of them and hearing some noes. Celeste Berke [00:15:29]: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Again, it's it's pretty rare that people are speaking up about cold calling is not dead. Obviously, on LinkedIn, there are a lot of people who are talking about cold calling done right, and I think you've laid out some great examples of when done properly and you're armed with the problem information. And you're speaking to that, and you're, like, asking for permission, and you're telling people why you're there. Right? There's nothing worse as a human being of Not knowing what's gonna happen when you're in a situation, right, and you go into a doctor's office for a procedure. Like, this is why you feel a level of Comfort when someone walks you through, what's going to happen? And it's no different in sales. Like, people want to be disarmed and have an understanding so that they hear you out but if you just come out the gate with it usually the defenses are up. Celeste Berke [00:16:13]: So I appreciate you sharing that and please connect with Ben on LinkedIn as He shares information on cold calling or if you want some tips on the side definitely DM Ben on like, Hey, man. I need some cold calling help. Can you go over what you say one more time so it can help you or your team have success? So I appreciate you being here, and, we'll see you on LinkedIn. Ben Miles [00:16:39]: Thank you, Celeste. Thanks for having me. Celeste Berke [00:16:42]: Alright. Awesome. You did so great. Ben Miles [00:16:46]: Woo. Thank

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. It is Celeste with the sales edge pod. I'm here with April Palmer, and I'm so excited. A funny story, and then I'm gonna let April introduce herself. I have seen April on the LinkedIn. Right? The mothership of business networking and connecting. And I was so scared to reach out to her because she has such a big personality. Celeste Berke [00:00:23]: I had impostor syndrome, and I thought, What if she doesn't connect with me? Do I have anything to say? And then a turn of events, she walks up to our booth at Saster in September. And she's this tiny little peanut, and we hugged. And it was just like an awesome moment of, like, oh my gosh. We're just 2 women. Right? Like, shooting the shit. Like, not even a big deal. Get out of your own freaking head, and here she is on the podcast. So tell us a little bit about yourself, all your roles, everything that you're working on. April Palmer [00:00:52]: Okay. All the thing. Okay. First of all, like, what's hilarious about this is I've heard a couple of people say that they, like, worry about reaching out to me, and I would like everyone to just know that I'm the most, Like, there's a reason why all of my social media is called hot mess boss because I'm like I'm a I'm a Fucking disaster. Wait. Celeste Berke [00:01:14]: What was that? April Palmer [00:01:15]: Did I ask you? Yeah. I am, like, I'm a fucking disaster, and I'm so down to earth both because I'm short and also because that's my personality. And so, like, unless you're gonna send me a picture of your genitals, then which is, like, not allowed, Then connect with me because I love meeting new people, and I totally fangirled over you in return. And so it was so fun to see you. Celeste Berke [00:01:39]: And we're very similar in age, you know, both have kids. It's just you realize the stories that you make up in your head are not what's happening in real life. So, yes, thank you for being human and going with the flow. April Palmer [00:01:53]: True. We're we're so human. And I tell myself fake stories all the time. And I actually have a sticky note by my desk right here that says, are you telling yourself a true story. And I have to read that to myself on a regular basis because my anxiety lies to me a lot too, Or maybe it doesn't. It doesn't. Celeste Berke [00:02:13]: Yes. And I was so impressed when you start talking about surfing, and now you have this podcast, and you have this new idea for business. Oh, now that you're an adjunct professor as well, and you're traveling the globe, and you have kids. And I'm like, where where does she fit all of this in? So give us a brief a brief synopsis of all of your roles, what you're encompassing, and individuals you like connecting with. April Palmer [00:02:37]: Okay. So my real job, like, my real actual day job that is the bread and butter for me is I work for a company called Duckbill Group. We help companies optimize their AWS costs both through their infrastructure and by helping them to renegotiate their contracts with AWS. So you're talking 100 of 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of contracts with AWS, and we help people pay Jeff Bezos less, which is, like, everybody wants to do that. Right? It's amazing. Then I also teach Part time as an adjunct professor at VCU, we have a very small group within VCU called the da Vinci Center, and we're like the island of misfit boys, which is really super fun. So we teach product innovation. We kind of marry, like, technology and sociology ecology and sales and revenue growth and entrepreneurship. April Palmer [00:03:32]: So it's this kind of super awesome hodgepodge of ideas to help bring in the next generation of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And so, like, that's exciting. And, in fact, Our team just got an award from Fast Company as we have been recognized as some of the world changing ideas that we're putting out there in educations. We're fucking playing the game, which is so fun to be part of that team. Because I'm like the weird one where I'm like, I don't know why you keep hiring me. But I look around. Everybody else is so smart and, like, good at what they do. If you want me to sit in a room and listen to what's going on with your business and throw, like, a couple of really good zinger ideas at you and then be like, peace out. April Palmer [00:04:13]: I'm not don't make me do that thing. It's just a great idea, then I'm super good at that. What else I've got. Celeste Berke [00:04:21]: Holy fuck. April Palmer [00:04:21]: I have 3 kids, 22, 22, and almost 18, 1 blind 6 cats. Sandy vacation. Off an epic vacation. I got one. So I work remotely because I can work from anywhere. So I just take my computer, and I just back off to wherever I wanna go. Most of the time, it's a surf destination. So I just got home from 2 weeks with my parents in Portugal, and I taught my parents how to surf, which is. April Palmer [00:04:48]: Me. I did Amsterdam for 3 weeks earlier this year. I've done Costa Rica, Spain, Portugal, Canada. And I just take my take my board and whatever and just go. Celeste Berke [00:05:02]: That's awesome. And I think you touched on something, you know, looking back to the days when I was in college. There's a lot of theory. And the days that really stood out for me were either when you had to go somewhere and do something and, like, put it into practice, or someone from this, like, fictitious outside world that you didn't even know of because you're in this box for warriors came in an unleashed about the real world. And you're thinking like, what? I don't know. How is it? Like, I'm I'm sitting here with all this theory, which sounds great, But now we're talking about real life and practice. So I think that while you may feel like an outsider, this is relevant to what is happening. Like, someone who is in the trenches and working. Celeste Berke [00:05:42]: I have no clue. I have an AWS account, and I used to put things in the cloud when I, I don't know, back before. And I taught myself how to do it, but I don't understand it at all. So I can only imagine these companies, they they don't get it either. So the practical side of teaching our next generation int entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. They probably love that you have, like, the ins and outs of the real world. April Palmer [00:06:06]: Right. And I don't sugarcoat things. I mean, I know we're getting ready we're here to talk about sales, and this, I think, is across the board for me is I I read this article by Simon Sinek once, and he talked about surrounding yourself with people who will give you real feedback rather than the feedback that you want to hear. And so in my mind, I translated this to, like, be a person who gives a fuck about other people's success so much that you will tell them the real story, whether that's, like, what really happens in entrepreneurship or, like, what's actually going to happen if They don't change things in their business when I'm trying to sell them things of which is actually, like I'm not really good at selling people things. I'm just kind of, like, there and help facilitate the process for them to to get to where they need to be. But this is one of the things that I do with teaching too. Like, I taught one of the One of the myths that people say all the time is, like, do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. And that's the biggest honk of bullshit I've ever heard in my life. April Palmer [00:07:13]: Do what you love. You won't sleep because your brain won't turn off. You'll get an ulcer. You'll lose your hair, maybe your marriage and, like, all of your money and, like, most of your sanity. Right? So it has to be worth it. And I think It's the same thing when we go into sales and these sales conversations. It's like, you have to be able to say to the people on the other side of the table, Like, I'm gonna give you the real skinny and if you whether you like it or not. Right? And, like, That's it. April Palmer [00:07:48]: And you do with that information what you want. If that's buying from me, awesome. If it's not buying from me, also awesome. Most of the time, that means I'll see you again in 6 months, and I'll charge you double. But, like, fine. Celeste Berke [00:08:00]: Yeah. And I think that comes from we talked a lot about that on our team as well. Like, Totally detaching from the outcome. Going in and saying, hey. The agenda for this call is this. Whether you work with us or not, I'm here to, like, drop value, to show you, to uncover. Like, you do with that information whatever you want. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it because if I can help you, and you go work with someone else. Celeste Berke [00:08:24]: Like, I still showed up and provided value and credibility, but often in sales, we're so attached to that outcome in getting the sale that we are icky, and we don't provide any value. April Palmer [00:08:35]: Right. Trickle down economics in practice. Right? Like, Leadership says we have to and it makes sense. Right? We have to have a certain amount of money to run a business, full stop. But then that trickles down to sales quotas, and sales quotas get so ingrained in what salespeople are doing on a day to day basis that it's really, really hard to step back and say, you know what? I'm just here to do what's best for my customer and client and make sure that at the end of the day, the promises that I'm making, like, we can deliver on those promises, or I can hook them up with somebody you can. But but it's hard to be able to do that if you work for an organization that's really attached to activity metrics and hitting certain quota milestones in in specific ways. And that He is a really hard reality to face that we kind of live in today from a sales world because I believe that if you do the right things and you do them consistently for as many people as you possibly can, that, like, Goals don't really matter. You'll sell as much as you can. April Palmer [00:09:44]: Right? End of the day. And so I never look at my goal really other than to know, like, am I hitting some accelerators so I have some fun money. Maybe something. Right? But, like, it doesn't matter. If my goal is however many 1,000,000 of dollars and I do the best that I can, and I can sell half of that. That's literally the best that I can. And if I can look at myself in the mirror and be like, I did the best that I could, and I work to grow and learn and all of those things. And if I triple my quota, also, like, cool story. April Palmer [00:10:14]: That's the best that I could do. But, unfortunately, organizations don't, you know, work on April. Celeste Berke [00:10:23]: Yes. And so we talked on this. You know, I asked a question. What is your Sales Edge, and I know you have many. Like, what makes you unique? What is different? What's a different approach? How would you answer that knowing that you just gave us some some tidbits it into, like, the April way, which is show up authentically, and it kind of works itself out now or later. What would you say to that? April Palmer [00:10:44]: I think that my biggest edge is that I am probably one of the most curious people you have ever met. And so I walk into every sales call with this kind of, like, burning curiosity. And it has nothing to do with building a business case so that we can do an ROI so that we can put together a proposal that knocks the shots off. Like, that type of great. It's awesome. Right? I get it that those things are important. That's what pays my bills and buys my plane tickets, which which is really important. But, like, when I have a sales call and right now, I'm I'm all 100% inbound right now. April Palmer [00:11:29]: And so, like, it's a little bit different. But even when I was outbound, I would do the thing where I would, like, get to somebody's website. And I'd look, and I'd be like, oh, I don't know what that what they do. What does that mean? And then I would Google that, and then I would be watching videos and YouTube things and whatever and become an accidental expert on some part of their business. And it it didn't really matter if it had anything to do with what I was selling. If I could walk in and be like, Hey. I was reading this, and this happened. And then also, did you know that this company did that? And, like, all of a sudden, people realize that I'm not necessarily there to sell them. April Palmer [00:12:08]: I'm there to, like, partner with them, and I'm so curious about who they are and what they do that. I'm also then going to dig into their problems and ask why, who, what, and where, why how like, as many times as I possibly can until I actually understand what's going on at the heart of the issue. Celeste Berke [00:12:30]: Really, like, her think once you're channeling those 3 kids you had and, you know, early on when you're just like, well, why? Why? What about what about this? What about this, mama? April Palmer [00:12:41]: I'm kind of a toddler when it comes to sales. Like, I'm so I'm genuinely excited to learn more. And And then what's fun about that is when you end up going into other companies that do something similar or are somehow attached to it, then you get more and more knowledge. And that that really legitimizes you in the face of your clients as well. But I think they I I think they just feel like you care about them. Celeste Berke [00:13:11]: Yeah. That genuine curiosity. We talk a lot about that on a team. You'll hear it in our sales calls. We're, like, really curious about this, and It sounds to me like that sales edge, that genuine curiosity is what leads you versus any type of agenda or these are the questions I have to ask. It's really leading with curiosity about what is going on in a business so I can help them regardless of that outcome. And then in the process, yes, you're kind of getting that PhD as well and learning from each potential customer or everybody you have a conversation with. I love that. Celeste Berke [00:13:48]: And so April Palmer [00:13:50]: I think One of the things that because I know, like, you do so much with gap selling, and I remember reading that selling. And it just, like, I mean, I have a really honest moment with you all because this is what I do and who I am is I fucking hate business books. Like, they're the worst. They're awful. And because most of them should be called, it's common sense stupid. Right? And so, like, you you I get all of these sales books, And there's always a chapter on, like, send a follow-up email. Well, fucking. Right? Like, what year are we in? Sorry. April Palmer [00:14:24]: But one of the things that I love about gap selling is that there and, like, that stuck with me because I tend to get, like, 1 little gym out of everything. I think I got more. I got more than 1, Sheena. Sorry. But there's this like, are you really uncovering a problem? We talked about this earlier. Or are you uncovering an issue with a process? And, like, cool story that you can fix an issue with a process. Cool. Like, people will pay you for that. April Palmer [00:14:55]: It's good business. It's great. But if you can actually uncover the problem, but more than that, what caused the problem and what is the ripple effect of the problem and who all is impacted by that and what that means to them. So for me, a lot of times, if I ask question and question and question let's just talk about, like, AWS and group. I end up learning like, oh, we actually are planning to IPO in 18 months. And so it's really important for us to make sure that this contract is the appropriate contract with AWS so that we can publicize it during our IPO because it gives our investors and future stockholders' confidence that we have this partnership with AWS. That is why this is so important. Well, guess what? That is not a decision then for a VP of engineer Celeste Berke [00:15:48]: Right. April Palmer [00:15:48]: To make. Like and they don't value what we're doing. They won't pay what we want them to pay. So you've got to because we may be easy, but we're not cheap. And you know? So, like, if you don't know those things, if you haven't figured out every person who's And not, like, every every person. Right? But, like, enough people to get in and say, what's actually going on here rather than the surface level, then you're not doing it right unless you're unless you're sole goal as volume, which is fine. Like, that's that is a a legitimate business and revenue growth tactic. It's just not the way that it works for me. Celeste Berke [00:16:27]: I love us. So it's like that curiosity around, yeah, what else is going on in the business? What else? What else? What is this impact? How does that show up? Like, what are their future plans? Where are they to that. It's about asking a whole bunch of questions and realizing that that process, that sales cycle, all those conversations, Like, it may not be on your timeline. It could be a longer timeline, but when you're uncovering, could get more stakeholders involved. Right? You may have back to the drawing board. It could be a bigger problem. They have to fix something else first before they can even chat with you. So I love all of that. Celeste Berke [00:17:03]: Curious about a myth. I know you and I talked a little bit about these. We tend to put salespeople in boxes of Salespeople need to be prospecting and doing this and sending cold emails or have a certain right? Like, all of this stuff, April Palmer [00:17:21]: which Celeste Berke [00:17:21]: I was on a training earlier today, and I can just see it. Right? All the, like, followers of, you know, we're gonna do this process. No. Just freaking be yourself. But What is a sales myth that you would love to bust right here on this show? April Palmer [00:17:36]: Okay. Well, My very favorite sales myth that I love to buy, and it's, like, actually a business myth, is that you can't show up authentically, whatever that means for you. You can't say the word fuck because I do. And if y'all ever look at my LinkedIn profile, if I haven't scared you off yet, it's in my headline twice. Right? Like, It's fine. It's, like, it's professional. But I think if you show up as yourself and not who you think that your client wants you to be or who you think that your boss wants you to be. Then you're more likely to attract people who want to buy from you because they can feel your sincerity. April Palmer [00:18:16]: But here's another one, and this was, like, actually my original one because this is something that this. I would rather scrape my own nails down a chalkboard if we remember what those Mhmm. Are before whiteboards and, like, whatever. Or, like, have someone untie my belly button without anesthetic before I did this. I get I, like, sign up for newsletters all the time. I wanna see what other this is the curiosity. Right? Like, I sign up for newsletters. I read them. April Palmer [00:18:45]: I wanna know what they're teaching people. I wanna know what's happening in the sales world, in the business world. And one of the common themes that I get in my inbox all the time is how to take control of the sales call. Come on, y'all. Really? Do you think that your prospect wants you to roll up and be like, hey. I'm going to take control of this. You're going to talk about the things that I wanna talk about on the timeline that I wanna talk about them and the context that I wanna talk about them in. Like, people fucking hate that. April Palmer [00:19:16]: Do not walk into a sales call and think that you're going to take control of it. Like, you can build a framework for it. You can have goals for it. You can you can ask questions around what their goals are for all of those things. But, like, If you're showing up to take control of a sales call, all that means is that you are word vomiting at your client and they potential client. And they are tuning you out and thinking about who is a better solution for them. And guess what? Like, it's probably status quo. Like, it's it's It's way easier to just keep doing what you're doing even if it's painful than it is to have to work with somebody who shows up like a fucking asshat on a sales call. Celeste Berke [00:19:58]: And, you know, an an interesting this happened to us yesterday. We have an opportunity. They canceled, said what was what had happened, which is a death in the family. I reached out today saying, you know, had what other time because they proposed a future date. Can we nail on a date. And then they sent me back some information about what was going on with family. I was like, you know, my condolences. Obviously, that's most important. Celeste Berke [00:20:24]: I could have kept pushing it. Right? Like, We need to nail down a time. What date works for you? But I'm a human being and understand that when there's a death in the family, when something happens in a business, like, that's on their timeline. It's not on yours. Right? It yes. Business was on, but we're also human. So how do we honor that, And how do we wanna be treated? We forget that in the sales process. Like, if someone was doing that to us, like, fuck off. Celeste Berke [00:20:49]: I'm not gonna buy from you. April Palmer [00:20:50]: Oh my god. Yeah. We do it every day. I had, about a year and a half ago. Is that right? About a year and a half ago or so, I was buying a new car. And, like, I've been in the automotive industry, and And so I kind of know enough about it. Right? But, also, I'm very aware of what I'm looking for whenever I'm buying. I'm like most of your buyers. April Palmer [00:21:14]: I do hours, sometimes hundreds of hours of research on my own before I ever approach anyone to let them know that I'm looking to buy a thing. Right? Like, I'm becoming my own expert in this. And so the my number one buying criteria for a car. Number 1 was they had to offer concierge pickup and delivery with a loaner car to do my oil changes and other maintenance. Full stop. I work a lot. I travel a lot. I've got a lot of responsibilities, and the last thing I'm going to go do is go sit in a service area waiting room while somebody changes my oil. April Palmer [00:21:54]: Not gonna do it. And then I decided that I wanted a Subaru. Like, my my kids are getting ready to start driving and, like, all of it, which is hilarious because my oldest is 22, and she's had our learner's permit since 2018. And she still doesn't have her driver's license. She's never even taken the test. But so I I was like, okay. We want a Subaru. So I started calling Subaru dealerships, and I was like, hey. April Palmer [00:22:20]: So Here's the deal. I am specifically looking for 1 of these 2 models. I'd like to buy it in the next 2 weeks. My number one buying criteria. The thing that is going to make a decision for me is whether or not you offer lifetime concierge pickup and delivery of this car for service. And it was amazing, the responses that I got. Like, I called 5 dealerships and 4 of them, 4 men, who answered, and I told them. And they're like, well, we don't do that, but. April Palmer [00:22:54]: And I was like, oh, no. No. Unless you're saying but we will do it for you, and we'll put it in writing. That's my number one. But and they're like, Oh, but we can give you this much off and this and I'm like, you know what? Your $3,000 off of MSRP doesn't work for me because my time is way more valuable than that over the lifetime of this vehicle. The last 1 I called is a female owned dealership at Liza Borsch. She's amazing. And the woman I talked to said, yeah. April Palmer [00:23:25]: We can do that for you. And I said, will you put it in writing? And they said, yeah. We'll Put it we'll put it in there, and, like, you'll do it during the f and I process. We absolutely do it. And I was like, okay. And I literally drove out that night and bought a car. Full stop. And, like, y'all, we have to listen. April Palmer [00:23:43]: There's no that the those other salespeople tried to take control of the conversation, but the Fact of the matter is I knew what I wanted, and most of your clients do too. What they're really looking for you to do is help them justify it. Right? Like or add insights to something that they didn't they didn't think Celeste Berke [00:24:03]: about that there could be, like, a ripple effect to or something that's happening in the industry that you have insights over. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. But April Palmer [00:24:11]: But by the time you get in front of a buyer, They are pretty sure that they know what they want, and what they really want is for you to help them build an ROI. And you cannot build a business case. You Cannot build an ROI unless you have more information. And so, like, stop trying to close them and start trying to help them build the business case to do what they already want to do full circle. Celeste Berke [00:24:37]: I love this. And thank you so much for sharing your insights. I mean, we could We could probably talk for forever, so I know that this is just the beginning of many conversations. For individuals, we will obviously link your LinkedIn here. But tell us quickly, who are you most interested in connecting with. So if that individual is watching or they have a referral, they can pass it your way. April Palmer [00:25:02]: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So From a group perspective, we help companies that are spending $500,000 or more a month on their Amazon Web Services costs and are looking to spend less or renegotiate their contract with AWS. Oftentimes, it's in the financial insurance, hospitality industry, like, you know, kind of big companies. But more than that and, like, really, truly, I just like cool people. Like, I love I actually teach how to LinkedIn. It's a class that I teach at VCU. April Palmer [00:25:35]: And I always tell my students, I'm like, you can go find people who are your ICP. And this is, like, This is actually shitty sales advice, so, like, don't take this as sales advice. But for me, this is good life advice. Like, find cool people. Cool people know other cool people, Who also know cool people, who know somebody in the industry who's like your ICP. I I just love awesome, like, raw, baller people. And I wanna get to know them, and I wanna consume their content on LinkedIn and, like, interact with those conversations because that's what gives me life every day while I sit here in my home office with, like, my weird random heads. Can we notice this? Like, I've got a pink head. April Palmer [00:26:17]: I've got there's there's Julius Caesar with pencils sticking out of his back. I've got this little chalk There's another head. Oh, there's a camel head. Celeste Berke [00:26:25]: From your travels. From your travels. I'm sure. They're little trinkets. They're little trinkets. April Palmer [00:26:31]: Yes. But for some reason, disembodied heads are my thing. Celeste Berke [00:26:36]: Not a problem. And, you know, here we are, 2 ladies wearing our hoodies Showing you that you can show up authentically. I know. Hoodies. You can. Although it's, like, 77 degrees here right now, so I probably have to d hoodie. Showing you that you can show up as your authentic self, bust those myths, but also lead with value, and then connect with really awesome people because they know awesome people. And I'm And we chatted earlier today. Celeste Berke [00:27:01]: You gave me some amazing advice. I'm gonna connect you with someone in my network, and that's how it is done. So I truly Appreciate you spending time with me today, and everybody can hear your story. Connect with April on LinkedIn, And we will see you next time.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. This is Celeste. We are on the Sales Edge Podcast. I am with Randi. We've been chatting ahead of time, prerecording 30 minutes, and I'm blown away by the unique story. I can't wait for you to share it with our listeners here. So give us the low down on what who you are, what you're up to, and then we'll get into some questions. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:00:21]: Well, thank you for having me, Celeste. Celeste Berke [00:00:23]: And we didn't we didn't plan the the red for those of you listening on audio. We're both wearing red today. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:00:30]: Oh, great minds, think alike. So I think what I'd like to share with everyone is, You know, sales is a wonderful place to be, it's not a dirty word. And the other thing that I'd like to share is that We need to give people more chances in sales. And what I mean by that is I'm actually a clinical scientist Turned revenue growth leader. And everyone goes, science, sales? This is how I break it down. So As a scientist, I was trained, number 1, to fail. That's what running experiments do. You iterate to get the right outcome. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:01:10]: Come. Well, think about sales in your go to market motion. What are you doing? You need to know your numbers, where you need to improve and you are Constantly iterating, whether it's, you know, ACV, you're having a larger contract value or whether it's, you know, getting more inbound or whether it's, You know, conversion rates. Whatever it is, that's what we do. So I was literally trained to fail and experiment, And that's exactly what I do as as a sales sales leader. And for anyone who's thinking, okay. That's all good and well, Randy, but how did you transition? I think it's also important, like I said, giving people a chance as I already said. And I was fortunate enough that as a leader over, you know, a science life sciences group, I had a network who's like, You know, you would be really good at actually selling. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:02:01]: So I took a chance on myself, stepped down, Set my ego aside and said I need to learn, took an individual contributor role, which meant a lower title and less pay. And in that 1st year, I blew away the number that I was that I was given by two and a half times. And not only that, they asked me, okay, if you can do that on your own at a start up where no one taught you how to do what you just went out and did it. Can you teach a team? And I was like, okay, and so if I can do it, anyone can. And If you are, like, even considering, like, oh, I don't have the skills. You do have the skills. There are lots of transferable skills. And I know myself as a leader, when I'm looking at resumes, Verbal skills. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:02:46]: And I know myself as a leader, when I'm looking at resumes, I'm not just looking at the piece of paper. I'm looking at the whole person because there's things that can be taught And those are things that you bring to the table, right, whether it's transferable, your attitude. And one of the biggest things in sales is being coachable. Right? So that's one of the the things that I just like to share about myself as scientist to revenue growth leader. And now I'm just a mad scientist Obsessing over the go to market motion. Celeste Berke [00:03:14]: Right. Obsessing over that data. So I think you touched on it a little bit that that sales edge. If If this was the only clip someone heard and we were asking, hey, Randy, what do you consider your sales edge aside from scientists to where you are now. How do you sum that up? Randi-Sue Deckard [00:03:35]: Well, this is gonna be a little contrarian. A lot of people think that your edge is, What tech tools do you have? If if you don't have tech tools in your bag, how are you gonna do it? It's not about the Tech tools. And it's about you as an individual and the skills that you have. So I'm always investing in myself. Here I am, been doing this for quite a while, but guess who's taking course after course why? It's not just for the material. It's for the cohorts and the other perspectives because I am the game changer in the conversation. If I can obsess about my customer, Learn to really understand what their pain points are. Talk like them. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:04:18]: Add value. Because remember, no one cares about what you sell. Right? It's only if you're helping someone and someone wants to be seen, valued, heard in the conversation. That is that is the game changer is you. And as soon as you get that growth mindset and really focus on upskilling yourself, you will see Results, and you will go further than you thought you could. Look at me. I'm SVP of sales marketing customer success. I am living proof of this. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:04:46]: I I just started investing myself. And, honestly, when I went into sales, I had no idea. Miller Heiman, MEDDIC, I was like, I know a lot of acronyms because I've been in health care and life sciences, but I don't know those. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:05:01]: And I and you and I were chatting a little bit earlier. So anybody who's entering sales right now is in such a different place. I mean, obviously, every generation can say this, right, as time goes, but The tech tools have skyrocketed, and you and I chatted about our our when we both entered the market. But I think It's safe to say when we were both in sales and started out, it was the grassroots effort. Like, tech was in this thing. And so you really are doubling down on what do I know about my prospective buyer? What language do they speak? Where can I find them? I I mean, this was back when there were, like, pagers, and there wasn't really I mean, email was just, like, just starting to come out, right, in the, like, to thousands. So we lived through a time when all you had was yourself. Right? You didn't have all this fancy tech to hide behind this tech stack. Celeste Berke [00:06:00]: And so taking a step back for our modern day sellers, if you strip all of that away, who are you at the core? How are you pouring into yourself so that you can align with your buyer and your customer, but also find that confidence in your own voice. You and I had talked about that, like finding your voice and not being afraid afraid to stand up. You had mentioned, and something I wanna share here when we talked off air, is you have all of these people that have worked for you or work with you who say, Randy, I would do anything to be on your team. What does that stem from? Randi-Sue Deckard [00:06:37]: I think it's because I'm a life because I'm a lifelong I call it serial learner. You know, I've I've checked my ego, and I always am so excited to share And not only invest in myself, but invest in my team and helping them succeed. I don't always have the best ideas. Right? So I I just surround myself with people who really want to learn and are coachable. And because I've invested them and seen them soar, like Like I said, it's one of the things I'm most proud of is that literally, you know, I still keep in touch with, you know, you know, the team members that I've had in the past. And, you know, the fact that they say, hey. If you had an open position or if you ask me to come work for you, I would work for you again. And I think it's a testament to leadership. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:07:27]: And I consider leadership a privilege, which is which is another thing. And if you're not investing in your people, you know, What are you doing? Right? Like, I'm not a hands off leader, and I'm not saying I micromanage, But what I'm saying is I coach to the individual. What do you need to be successful? Everyone learns differently. Mhmm. And everyone needs help in a different state in a different way. But I'm also the person who has seen something in you and believes in you, And I will keep on you till you believe it in yourself. Celeste Berke [00:08:02]: Yeah. That's so awesome. And I love how you said, you know, leadership is a privilege. And I was looking at something yesterday, which I think I wrote back a a barf emoji on LinkedIn. It was a sales a sales leader who had posted this really cringey job, and all the sentences start with I. Like, I'm looking for this. If you're not willing to do this, this isn't for you because this is how I run the team, and it screamed, This is a very self I mean, who knows? A very selfish leader, and we're in a day and age when people will jump ship. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:08:39]: Mhmm. Celeste Berke [00:08:39]: And something that Keeps the team and keeps people together really as this culture. And a lot of it's done around the leadership. Yeah. Leaders have to be investing in yourself as leaders. Right? My my father's 78. He has a $10,000,000 business. He constantly is like, Cece, I read this book and I was looking at this and constant that as you said, like, just that just consumer of knowledge and information because then we have this opportunity to not hoard information. And I think part of my issue with leadership growing up is growing up through through the ranks is they always felt threatened. Celeste Berke [00:09:15]: Like, maybe someone was gonna take their job or what. Like, who cares? Right? Isn't the point that we're building people up so that they can go on, just like we were talking about parenting, and go out into this world, usurp us in in a role or, you know, go on to do great things. Like, that is growth. And when it comes from a place of that, like, servant leadership but you also have to be a little bit of that parent where you're moving people along because they don't know what they don't know. So I appreciate you sharing about pouring into yourself. You also mentioned that you're writing a book. Tell us a little bit about that new chapter, so to speak. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:09:55]: Yeah. So I I just want People, you know, my giveback is I want people to know, and it is geared more towards women just because that's My point of view that you can do anything. So I'm the queen of transition, you know, clinical scientists Mhmm. To, you know, this individual contributor. I kinda spent a little bit of area in in, you know, CX and and before I got into Into actual sales and running sales, marketing, customer success. But I want people to realize that everyone has it within them And, you know, anyone can can change at any time. And whether you've had success or failure, Your past does not define your future, and I'm I'm super excited just to share my journey and my story in the hopes That it inspires others to either, you know, take a leap of faith or just Ponder and be curious about what if and and giving them, you know, that space to think about what they want to do in their lives. Celeste Berke [00:11:07]: No. That's so wonderful. I'm I'm excited to have heard about the journey. It obviously inspires my own journey. And for Everybody out there, I think we're both in alignment. Like, everybody has a great story to tell. Everybody has that book, whether they write it or not, that is this, like running dialogue that people wanna hear. We are all inspired by others' journeys. Celeste Berke [00:11:27]: I'm definitely inspired hearing how You've gone from this, like, mad scientist, right, into your current your current role, and we were connected on LinkedIn. You were referred to me as someone I had to meet, someone I had to chat with because of this unique crossover. And it so aligns with early on in my career. I I wasn't in sales. I was in association management, event meeting management, and someone took a chance on me. I went through 7 interviews and landed a director of sales roll, and I couldn't even tell you what the industry was, any acronyms. Like, I I was flying blind, but somebody took that chance on me just like you took that chance on yourself and said, I'm gonna go for it, because I have this innate skill set, and now sharing with other people that journey and saying, hey, you can do it too. It might be tough. Celeste Berke [00:12:20]: You may fail forward, but it's your story to tell and and your journey. So I so appreciate you sharing time with us. Individuals can find you on LinkedIn. You're putting out some amazing content, and I love that we were connected by Riley. He's the master connector on LinkedIn. Randi-Sue Deckard [00:12:37]: He is. He is the e evangelist of of LinkedIn. We gotta give Riley a shout out for sure.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]: Hello. Hello. It's Celeste with Daniel on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm super excited for Daniel to introduce himself. We met at Saster and then saw each other a couple more times during that event, 1 at the lavender after party. Really impressed with Daniel and Aligned, so would love him to take an intro take a moment to introduce himself. Daniel Ryan [00:00:27]: Yeah. I'll take an introduction anytime, Celeste. So, hey, everyone. My name's Daniel. I am The founding account executive at Aligned. Before that, I mean, I've been in software sales for the last, like, almost 4 years And be in sales in general for 7. And, yeah, I really love talking all things sales sales stuff. I can't wait to share a couple of The things that I picked up or things that I have found not to Celeste Berke [00:00:54]: be true. Tell tell the listeners here, Aligned. Your your quick Synopsis of Aligned. Daniel Ryan [00:01:02]: My synopsis. Basically, if you're a salesperson as a complicated sales process, Meaning, either lots of, you know, collateral, lots of back and forth, mutual action plans, all that sort of stuff, and you find yourself, you know, Sending tons of emails, all that sort of fun stuff, and you're looking to make it a better experience for your buyer, that's what Align is for. It's to help the buyer Go internally. Make it much simpler for them to share the resources. Makes it better for you to coach them because you know who's looking at them, what they're looking at, All that fun stuff. So it's essentially a workplace for your champions and your reps to Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:01:41]: It's a great place for collaboration. And just today, I saw on LinkedIn, on the aligned page, an awesome video that you all shot about a buyer and a seller basically working together in a workspace. So if you want more information on that, go check out the aligned page as it's a very same concept. And I know for any of us who are in sales, we actually dove into this with our team the other day. We were looking at an email thread, and it was so many back and forth with a buyer just like, oh my gosh. There has to be a better way. So, Daniel, tell us You've been in the sales scope for a while. You're founding AE at Aligned. Celeste Berke [00:02:23]: What is your sales edge? What makes you unique? Daniel Ryan [00:02:27]: Yeah. I don't know if it's super unique to the whole world, but I think what I've been told repeatedly and what I'm, like, The best at is the relationship building part, which I have a pretty good knack at, you know, within 3 minutes, get someone's guard down, then we can get, you know, to the meet where, you know, where the relationship art doesn't matter as much because you're asking the tough questions or whatnot. What helps me get there so quickly Is yeah. I guess I guess my edge would be, like, the ability to get the atrocity Celeste Berke [00:02:55]: And where does that stem from? How did how did you, I guess, arrive at this place of having people at their guard Daniel Ryan [00:03:02]: Natural talent. Natural words. Celeste Berke [00:03:04]: The Aussie accent. That's what it is. Daniel Ryan [00:03:08]: That definitely helps. I've been told that a bunch of times from coworkers watching Gong calls, and they're like, there's no way I could get away with saying what you just said. So it's definitely having an accent has helped. But, I mean, on the eldest of 6, I grew up. My old man runs, like, a ministry that has a bunch of stuff on it. You know? So, like, I've been meeting with and building relationships with people literally, like, in my home for the my entire life. From when I was 6 is when he started doing that. So I think just Yeah. Daniel Ryan [00:03:42]: That's what like, that would be where where it comes from, you know, meeting people. And I think I just learned from a young age that, like, everyone's favorite Everyone's favorite topic is themselves. Being interested is being better than interesting, and that that just sort of comes pretty naturally to me. So I think that would be the That would be how Celeste Berke [00:04:00]: I got it. Interesting that you say that as I think back to being a a shy kid, kind of a I'm an introverted extrovert, but I look back and my parents entertained a lot. Right? So you were always around people, and the adults would ask kids questions. We were treated like adults. Right? We sit at to come sit at the table, the manners, the picking up all of that. And I and I think at an early age, you definitely learn how to converse with other people. And now I look at My husband has 2 kids, and I think like, oh gosh. We really didn't give them that opportunity. Celeste Berke [00:04:35]: Like, no wonder they're a little shy in front of in front of people so I can see that in the home, especially with having other siblings. Right? It's this give and take relationships, listening to what somebody says before you're responding. You know, what a cool foundation that has helped you now in the sales career. Daniel Ryan [00:04:55]: Yeah. It's really interesting you say that. So I there's a there's a local family that they have 6 girls. 3 of them watch my kids. They're babysitting. I remember talking to their mom and being like, every single one of your children, like, looks me in the eye on the conversation. Like, This is really impressive and whatever whatever. And I was telling my own mother this just on, like, a FaceTime, and she's just started laughing. Daniel Ryan [00:05:18]: And she's like, was like, what? He's like, you know every single person used to say that about you kids to heart. And I was like, I No. I didn't know that, but I guess you're right. I mean, I did look people in the eye and, you know, ask them about themselves or whatnot when I was, like, 10, which Now that I'm an adult talking to other 10 year olds, I'm like, this is weird. Like, why are you looking at me and asking how my day was? Like, 10 year old is supposed to say, You know, Paw Patrol and then Run Away. Probably not quite accurate for that show in that age. So I think and that came from all sorts of things. Like, Because my dad, you know, spoke on a stage in front of big groups of people, like, I think the 1st time I spoke to a group of a 100 people, I was 12. Daniel Ryan [00:05:59]: Yeah. Because, like, my folks would do a lot of, like, parenting courses, and so my old man's big thing is, like, you know, The proof's in the pudding. He's like, I can't stand up here and tell everyone, like, this is how you should parent if I'm not willing to show them my kids and what they're like. And so I was I think that really helped. I think for me, like, it's made it substantially easier. So And and a part of that is, again, you know, I've met tons of very, very successful people, people with big titles that have The exact same problems as me and everyone else. So I think that has really helped with my relationship building aspect is if I'm getting on a call with the CEO, Like, I know that they still get in fights with their kids and that they still have to remember to flush and wash their hands. Like, they're still a person, and it's not that big of a deal to to to chat with them. Daniel Ryan [00:06:46]: So I think that is probably what helps is that I just treat people like their people. Celeste Berke [00:06:52]: Right. We we strip away this Status that individuals have, and it's and it's tough when you get on calls with individuals who because they have more time in the seat. A lot of Sellers will tell me that. Right? I'm apprehensive. I actually was talking to my mentor, Rachel, who I know you've talked with today, and she was like, why haven't you reached out to this person? I'm like, didn't didn't you see? And she's like, come on. And so I had to flush it through. Like, wait a second. They have a problem I can solve. Celeste Berke [00:07:20]: They don't know what I know. I don't know what they know. It's like it's it's we make it more of a big deal, and I think that comes from the internal dialogue that We tell ourselves over and over again, and you're right. Starting in a young age, how do we immerse our own kids into Daniel Ryan [00:07:39]: out of us. Yeah. It's definitely it's definitely like, I think Anyone who is successful or a bigwig, you know say bigwig for those listening. I'm doing their quotations when I do. They I've found, in my experience now, they're, like, they're usually the ones that listen the most. Like, the ones that, I know everything. Don't usually make it that far. So I don't really yeah. Daniel Ryan [00:08:09]: I mean, I I I would definitely say, like, it's it's not something that you need to be afraid of. And At the end also, at the end of the day, you know, if they if they do say, you know, like, Celeste, you don't know what you're talking about, like, you're wrong. Just, you know, end the Zoom. Don't talk to everyone. Celeste Berke [00:08:27]: There's so many other fish in the sea. Right? And and we get so attached to an outcome or a perceived outcome that we maybe shoot ourselves in the foot before we start. I know I was talking with, somebody else, Blaze, who I met at Saster as well. He's with User Gems. And the other day, he told me he was talking with a CRO who I think had their arms crossed, and they looks Like, they were totally detached from the conversation, so he said he stopped on the Zoom just to check-in. Like, are are you tracking? Are you with me? And the person was appreciative of him stopping and was and he said, no. I'm I'm just trying to take it all in. Right? Like, my mind is spinning, And sometimes we take someone's title as they're not interested in what I have to say. Celeste Berke [00:09:11]: And as you That'd be interesting and be interested, and that should that should resolve itself. But here's to our young kids learning that skill as well now that we have it. And I know you mentioned the Paw Patrol. I will say we are deep, like, real deep in the Paw Patrol over here to the point where my daughter will only respond to Sky Puppy as her name, and we have to set some barriers. Like, at the dinner table, you're not sky puppy because puppies don't sit at the dinner table. So it's Daniel Ryan [00:09:45]: Just remember that no Problem is too big, and their pub's too small, Celeste. Celeste Berke [00:09:51]: That is perfect. I think we often say, like, a pub's gotta do what a pub's gotta do. Daniel Ryan [00:09:58]: And that's I have to say some of the things like, since my daughters have gone to school, some of the things that, like, they get taught is still So relevant to us today. Like, that's just reminded me. So both my kids have gone through the same, like, junior and senior kindergarten class with the same 2 teachers, and they have these, like, These sayings that they say, and they've now become like mantras in our house. And even when my kids were at school, I say it to myself. And one of them is no big deal banana peeled. And it's so like, what we're talking about is someone, like, says like, you know, if someone hangs up on you angrily from a cold call or if you have, like, a bad meeting Or if you don't close a deal or whatever, I just like you know, I'm like, what would I say to my kid if this if they had something unfortunate happen? And it's Diamond peel banana peel is a big Celeste Berke [00:10:45]: I love that. We're in the I need space. That's what she tells me, so I know that's coming from from she's in pre k, from school. Oh my god. A teacher, she needs space, but she's constantly, like, constantly telling me she needs space. Like, alright. Alright. Okay. Celeste Berke [00:11:02]: So love The Sales Edge. We go on and on about relationships. Oftentimes, when you're in sales you know, you've been in sales a while. It's not like this is your 1st rodeo. Obviously, you were recruited to be the 1st AE at Aligned. Oftentimes, we're given some, like, sales advice, but you gotta take it with a grain and salt or we hear something and it becomes this, like, myth. Is it true? Is it not? Do we believe it? Tell me. What is the sales myth you wanna bust, break, or share with us that the listeners might not know. Daniel Ryan [00:11:39]: Oh, I don't know if the listeners might not know, but one thing that I what I really bust is, like, taking all advice at face value. Like, it could even be like I've had examples of A sales leader at my own org, this is at a previous company, gave advice of, like, you should have asked more here, and you should have done more discovery diving into this. And I'm like, well, if you hit play instead of pausing, that's what I end up. So, like, Taking like, there's a there's a phrase that I learned from, again, my Celeste Berke [00:12:12]: my folks. My preschooler. Daniel Ryan [00:12:15]: No. This is from my parents, and it was well, they they sort of 2 phrases. My mom would always say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, meaning, like You know, which is a really weird saying when you try to break it down. But, basically, like, throw out the the dirty bathwater would keep the clean child or more what my dad would say is, You know, eat the meats, spit out the bones. So, like, when it comes to, you know, advice in the sales world, context And, you know, who's it coming from? Who do they sell to? Because that's a big one that I see a lot. I mean, especially on, like, the LinkedIn world, Someone will be like, this is how I close 85% of my deals. And then everyone's like, oh my gosh. This is amazing. Daniel Ryan [00:12:56]: It's like, okay. Who are they selling to? Because if I'm selling to sales leaders and I have a 90% open rate in emails, that is like, that's good. That's like, You know, if if if you have less than a 70% open rate selling to salespeople, you have a massive problem, like, on the technological side of landing and spam. Whereas if you're getting 40% open rates selling to, like, CSO and CTOs, like, that makes, like, a lot more sense because those people don't live in their email. They're not talking to our organizations. They are internal. They're using Slack. They're using Confluence. Daniel Ryan [00:13:28]: They're using, you know, all those other things. So if you're selling to, you know, x persona and someone's giving you advice based on their experience selling to y persona, you should probably ignore it, because they don't know who like, sales is, you know, sales is is Helping someone make a purchase. I don't think that, yeah, all that is fun advice on Celeste Berke [00:13:56]: And there's no there's no one way. Right? Daniel Ryan [00:14:00]: I a quick I definitely actually, what what I would love to dive in is I was having this conversation with the CRO of Amplemarket, and I, like, I think, And the more I'm in sales, the more I believe this to be true, is that, like, not everyone can sell to everyone else. Like, there are some people That like, I met this 1 guy, and he was the classic like, when my family pictures a salesperson, this is who they would think of. Like, slicked back hair, in your face, like, aggressive, could tell any story, center of attention. And I know for me personally and some of the people that I've worked for before, like, as sales leaders, they would never buy from this person. However, he's wildly successful. I know that there are other people where I go for more than relational, slightly more laid back, you know, trying to talk to them, whatever, and they need someone to take the reins and, like, Drive them to where they need to go. And, you know, there are people that he would that he could sell to that I would probably never be able to sell to Unless I change completely how I solve and vice versa. So that would be, I guess, a sales myth. Daniel Ryan [00:15:11]: That can be the one that Celeste Berke [00:15:11]: we landed on. And it's knowing that. Right? And especially as a Team as a team grows as a sales leader, I I think it's nice to have individuals who fit a puzzle piece. Like, Very early on when I was in sales, I'll use quotation marks. It was it was a lot of inbound, so it was, like, reactive sales. I started hiring people I liked because I was a brand new manager. I had no clue. No one ever taught me. Celeste Berke [00:15:34]: Hey. This is how you hire people. And then I slowly realized, woah. You need to hire people who excel in a skill set where I do not. Right? Like, how do we fit this puzzle piece together so that if you have a difficult customer or you're in a buying situation, right, you can all kind of weigh in or you can cherry pick and match up somebody on your team who best It fits that style. Obviously, as a 1 person show, you can't, but I think your culture is pretty, like, laid back. But not all cultures are like that. So, yeah, assessing your team, You can't have all of the, like, the Wolf of Wall Streets or if any of you are watching those real estate shows. Celeste Berke [00:16:13]: Right? It's like Everybody's that hustle grinder, and and and not everybody jibes with that. That's kind of a turnoff to some buyers. Daniel Ryan [00:16:23]: Yeah. I call it, like, the greasy used car salesman style. Like, that is again, it but then it depends. If you're a salesperson who's Selling used cars, you need to be probably a little bit more forward because reality is if someone's on your life, it's probably because they need a freaking car, so you need to be able to, like, you know, move the needle. Whereas if you're in, like, a consultative selling situation, you Oh, we don't need to, you know, jump down people's throats. Celeste Berke [00:16:50]: So Not at all. Yeah. And thank you so much for sharing that. I I I definitely take everything with a grain of salt. I I had a conversation earlier today about, like, holy crap. LinkedIn is just, like, full of gurus. Right? Like, everybody Slinging the sales advice, me, myself included. Some people go real deep. Celeste Berke [00:17:08]: Right? And it and you do have to pick and choose. Like, it It's all theory, and it's nice and tidbits that you can take from other people, but we internalize it of, like, I have to be like this person. Now you have to find a style that aligns with your buyers, and sometimes you have to go back. And as we were talking about before we hit record, like, Looking back in your CRM, looking at the deals that you've won, looking at the deals that you've lost, like, who were you selling into? Like, what was the difference between this role and this role? Like, Did you change your style? Did you change how you showed up? Did somebody else on your team take the reins? Like, it is so nuanced to you, yet everybody's like, how do I get the quick fix? Like, if I just implement this one thing, then everything is gonna change instead of saying, like, this is a journey that I'm on, And the way that I sell I mean, I'm 44 now. The way that I was at when I was 27 and got that 1st sales role, like, I'm wildly different. And I'm sure as you look back on your sales flubs and your wins and your opportunities, you can say the same thing about yourself. Daniel Ryan [00:18:10]: I'm wildly different from when I was a month ago, Celeste, let alone let alone a few years ago. I will say the one consistent was has been, like, The relationship thing that we talked about earlier. But, yeah, it's definitely I I would definitely say, like, don't you know, every time you read something new, some new piece of advice, Go. Yes. Like, this is it because, generally speaking, it might not be it. Celeste Berke [00:18:35]: Right. Not every opportunity to Get a franchise is going to be the one. I don't know if you get hit up with those, but it's a daily occurrence in my in my inbox. So many franchises, so few Daniel Ryan [00:18:51]: people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would just, like, As far as as far as I think people you know, like, If we go back to LinkedIn, people I have friends who are menaces on the phones, and they can They can, you know, book so many meetings so often, and they're like, yeah. It's so easy. This is my opener that I use. And, like, I just do this, and I just do that. Daniel Ryan [00:19:19]: And then people okay. I'll use that opener too. And then they'll go and try and do it, but they haven't put in the 10000 hours of reps To get to that nuanced place of, like, oh, I need to use this objection handling situation here. That's not actually a real objection. This is Or, you know what? This person isn't actually interested. Let's just, like, hang up and go next. Like and so, you know, reading a post or listening to 1 podcast and being like, I'm gonna change my wholesale around this just probably isn't isn't a good idea. Celeste Berke [00:19:48]: No. And as the pups say, a pup's gotta do what a pup's gotta do. So that is the advice to you all out there. Right? You do as we say in this household, I tell my husband all the time. I'm like, why do you, bro? Why do you? You do you? Daniel Ryan [00:20:01]: We do you. Celeste Berke [00:20:01]: Yeah. Because he he's an endurance athlete, so he's constantly talking about his workout schedule and, like, all the projects around the house. I'm like, you do you, Whatever. Like, whatever you're gonna do, and it's so applicable to sales. Right? It's it's just honing. It's putting in those dirty reps like we would at at the gym, on the snowboard. You're not gonna strap on that those boots or whatever you call them and go down the hill the 1st time and crush it. No. Celeste Berke [00:20:28]: You're gonna fall a whole of times. And year after year, you're gonna get better, and you're gonna get better, and you're gonna get better. So appreciate all of your insights and wisdom, Daniel. Check out Aligned. Definitely a cool team. The marketing is pretty legit too, and I think that your team is putting out some amazing content that's, like, real. Right? So Daniel Ryan [00:20:49]: We do our best. We try to look at, you know, what do people wanna hear rather than just look it out Celeste Berke [00:20:54]: to people. And entertaining. Yes. Daniel Ryan [00:20:57]: So Yes. Engine Celeste Berke [00:20:59]: Engine team. Yes. So check out Daniel. Connect with him because, again, he's a well connected guy. So if you connect with him, He's probably gonna pay it forward and connect to you elsewhere. So appreciate your time, Daniel. I will go ahead and end this. Thank you, listeners.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Hello. Hello. This is Celeste with Blaise. I'm on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm going to get his name right. Bevilacqua, his last name. Bevilacqua. We met at SaaSter, of all places, and I truly enjoyed my conversation with Blaise. Celeste Berke [00:00:16]: We didn't really talk about product. We started getting in deep, and I was taken aback when Blaise told me he is in a sales seat. Well, he can talk about his role, but that he comes up by being a teacher. So with that, please give us a little intro into who you are. Blaise  [00:00:35]: Yeah. Thank you, Celeste. It was awesome meeting you a couple weeks back. But, yeah, just by ways of introduction, account executive here at UserGems, but before the whole Sales world in a different life. Right after university, I was in English as a second language teacher over in Korea for 2 years. So that's That's kind of where I dip my toe in the water. And then once I moved back to the states, started the whole BDR life, and the rest is history. Celeste Berke [00:01:00]: Wow. What a story. There's, you know, a lot of parallels. I'm sure you can derive from your time being a teacher. Really, it's this process that we're taking people on where we're trying to understand my mother's an educator. Trying to understand their learning style, what's unique about them, English as a second language, and now turning that around and doing that with your buyers, educating them, but also truly listening to them and what their problems are. So, yes, I loved meeting you and the team. We had just chatted prior to the show about, holy crap, user gems is all over LinkedIn. Celeste Berke [00:01:33]: Right? A Small but mighty team. I'm loving the content that they're putting out, but really goes in-depth about real world environment and what is happening. So on the show, we like to ask individuals 2 questions. We will start with the 1st question. Please tell us, as it relates to your role and what you're doing. What is your sales Blaise  [00:01:54]: edge? Yeah. I think one thing that I've heard from Now customers is that I don't come off throughout the sales process as sales y. It's hard because it's it's like It's not a tangible metric. And I think one thing that has helped, like, shift my mind completely like, when I was in SGR, I was like, book a meeting. Get them on the book. I don't care if it's qualified. Like, I'm still gonna. Fine. Blaise  [00:02:22]: And now it's mostly, like, as Josh Braun always says, like, detach. It's way easier said than done, but I think if you truly can get into that mindset, it helps. And then it calms you down too, and it makes people feel comfortable sharing, you know, why why they're in the evaluation phase in the 1st place. Celeste Berke [00:02:43]: Sure. Oh, I love that. So I talked with Riley Blasdell in his episode, and he said it's this whole, like, stinky commission breath. Right? Most salespeople are So worried about especially today. We are recording this on the 26th. The 30th is looming. Right? People are looking at What is happening? When are things gonna close? And really detaching from that outcome so they don't come across as as you said. People can sniff that out a mile away. Celeste Berke [00:03:11]: When do you think that shift happened for you from BDR to AE to stop talking about Yahoo. Blaise  [00:03:20]: Yeah. I think my 1st boss sensed I had this, like, Significant rush of urgency. Like, okay. Come on. Like, the next step in the funnel is business validation. Let's get here. But I'm like, hey. Yeah. Blaise  [00:03:32]: Like, understanding the buyer journey, they may not be ready to take that step. And I think that took me, like, a year and a half of a very slow learner to To learn. So, yeah, it was early, thank God, within my career to, like, have this mindset change, and it's it's been helpful. Celeste Berke [00:03:49]: And kudos to that manager. I don't know if it was a mentor or manager who said, hey. I recognize this behavior. This is perhaps how it's coming across. And for you to take that. Probably that teacher student, right, part Yeah. For you to take that in and say, oh, okay. How can I change my own behavior so it is not looked at as? Blaise  [00:04:12]: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it it's helpful because For all the newer reps, it's difficult with this no new, like, remote work work style, you know, just Distributed teams. Thank god this all happened. Like, I was sitting he was sitting on a call with me Mhmm. And tapped me on the shoulder. So I I try to impart that with newer reps coming up because, it's difficult to read a room via Zoom, and That's, like, one of the most key things to do. Celeste Berke [00:04:40]: Yeah. Zoom has definitely made looking at, I guess, like, the buyer's behavior in the moment. Right? Is someone fidgeting? Are they on their phone? And you can't see, like, what their hands are doing. Right? So you don't have no clue. Are they typing notes? Are they on their phone. Are they really paying attention? Are they picking up what you're putting down, so to speak? So I would say that has definitely made it difficult for all of us, and especially if you're the person that has a discovery call or whatever you wanna call it, a sales call, and the other person isn't even on camera. And you have no clue. Like, you cannot read it at all. Blaise  [00:05:16]: Yeah. Then it just feels like it's a presentation if they're not Edge. But funny enough, I'm working a deal right now that's in the middle of the funnel, and it's with a publicly traded company. And The SVP of sales was just sitting there quiet the entire time, and it was Just was not reciprocating. And I finally and I think it's okay to do this. Like, call them out and say, hey. His name's not x, but Right. Hey, Dave. Blaise  [00:05:47]: Like, notice that you're you're pretty quiet. Like, is this any interest? Like, You know, you came to us, and I'm trying to, you know, have a conversation here. Thankfully, like, what I found out after calling him out, Which I normally wouldn't do, but it was just such an awkward, you know, first 15 minutes that he was like, no. I I really like I'm just thinking. And so being comfortable with silence is is another thing, which is, like, a great skill to learn, but I like, after 15 minutes of silence, pretty much, I'm just like, What are we what are we doing here? Do you, like Celeste Berke [00:06:20]: Right. Is this And especially when the indicators are they reached out to you, so there was some type of interest. Right? You weren't reaching out to them cold and getting that, I hate to say, like, temperature check or, like, hey. Are we tracking on the same page? And I think that is Totally okay. I know for myself a little funny story. I once was interviewing, and I was so bored during the interview. So I was in my Early twenties. I ended up getting the job, but I think I was so in I was so intent on listening that I probably had this, like, blank stare for forever on my face because I was just trying to soak in, like, a sponge what they were saying. Celeste Berke [00:06:58]: And then the next interview, which was the final interview, they took me to lunch where I was a different person. I was, like, lively, and it was more conversational. And then they told me later on, like, We thought you were gonna fall asleep during that interview. I was like, oh. But if they would have checked in with me during that, they would have seen like, no. I would I was just Really listening. And so I I think that is a skill that you have to be able to read the room and know a couple of those signals prior to making that assumption because, yeah, you could really piss somebody off. In your case, you didn't, and you went with that gut intuition. Celeste Berke [00:07:35]: So kudos to you on that. And You'll have to keep me posted if that deal goes through because we all know at this late stage of the year, Things are getting pushed to next year. Alright. So love that about The Sales Edge. Thank you so much for sharing that story, T shirt to your current role. Oftentimes, when we come up through sales, I have a lot of bad Practices focusing, like, 15 years on Bant without knowing it was Bant because nobody called it that. It was like a check the box order taking type of sale. And we don't know at times that we have bad behavior or we are, following something that maybe we shouldn't follow anymore because it's gone out the way of the window. Celeste Berke [00:08:24]: So I love to have guests talk about a sales myth that they want to either bust, exploit, or give us a new one so that others can learn from it and or take notes to enhance their own sales skills. What would that be for you? Blaise  [00:08:41]: Yeah. So I would say the the biggest myth that I would like to bust is just because the c level is excited about the project doesn't mean you have a deal. And what I mean by this, especially within, like, Medpick, like decision maker. Like, case in point right now, working a deal. The CMO is the final. It it's the budget's coming from him. He's the one that is the most excited about it because it'll benefit his team the most. However, after looping in his technical counterparts To evaluate, they're saying that there's too many fires to put out, and this is something that they're gonna table in 6 months. Blaise  [00:09:25]: The discovery that was involved really touched home on how they're behind in pipeline, where they need to be. So, like, he understands conceptually. But because there's, like, this there's other technical fires that need to be put out first before addressing his needs, this is something that's That's going to have to be stalled and then put on the back burner. So it's it's a tough thing to know that just because you have a c level Interest doesn't mean the deal is gonna come in at the time that you forecasted. It's not a matter of if, but when. But, Yeah. There there are a lot of landmines these days given the economy of, you know, buying committees getting larger and larger. So Making sure that if there's 1 bad egg in the buying committee, address their needs up front early. Blaise  [00:10:14]: Make sure that they're on your side As well. And then Celeste Berke [00:10:17]: And it and it's hard to you don't have a front row seat into what's going on inside the organization. So you can look at problems, but a problem that's impacting a CMO, like you said, from the technical side. May not be a problem to that technical team, and you have no clue what else is on their plate and what is coming up or some type some type of urgency. I had a call within the last week that's very similar. Right? They they know they're severely behind in pipeline. They've gotten a lot of funding in the past couple of years. Like, they are not tracking at all to get to where they need to be. Now our team could come in and deliver a kick butt training and align the whole sales team, but we thought, you know, we need to take a step back here because this is there's company wide issues that are going on that just working with 1 department isn't gonna solve, and it kind of sounds like you're in that place. Celeste Berke [00:11:07]: It's It's not a no. It is a there's some other things that are going on that either take precedence, have to be fixed first before your team can come in. You know, this, In most cases, tech or a solution is no longer a check the box. It's really to enhance the performance of the team. But as sellers, we always put our blinders on, and we think, like, oh, it's just about the sales team. It's just about the marketing team. We don't realize, like, how intertwined all of these teams are. So thank you so much for sharing that. Celeste Berke [00:11:38]: I think new reps often don't see take a holistic approach to what else is going on within the organization, which is a whole another topic. So thank you for sharing that. And I will say but anything else to add to that? Blaise  [00:11:55]: Yeah. I I mean, just to to wrap it up, it does make you think like an executive because you have to think at an organizational wide level on, like, And all the risks involved within your deal. So I'll I'll leave it with that. But Celeste Berke [00:12:07]: We love that. I would, you know, give a plug for the gap telling that really it we need to talk about big business problems. We can't be looking at, okay, how your feature benefits one part of the company. Like, there's So much going on within an organization, and oftentimes, it allows us to have a PhD within the organization, which means we have to go out and do our research. I talked with my brother yesterday. It was my 44th birthday, so he called me, and I said, thank you. Thank you. It was like another day in the life. Celeste Berke [00:12:38]: When you get older, you're you have to really go out of your way to celebrate, I'm realizing. But I was talking to my brother, and he's a junior partner, Ernst and Young, and he was talking A lot of technical jargon. And I looked at him like, I have no clue what you're talking about. And I realized A lot of the times, our buyers, even if it's like, this is our ICP, that can span across many industries. And if we don't take the time to do some research and really understand what is their language, what matters to them, we are doing ourself a disservice because we're just trying to push the sale along, not understanding what's going on within the organization, not thinking like a c suite. So this is why I connected with you at SaaSter because I was so blown away by first of all, you were one of the few people that really knew problems that you solve for that were tech on the technical side that were more of these big business problems and wanted to bring you on because I think a lot of people can follow and learn from you. I love the content that you and your team are putting out there. And I will say, Give Blaise a follow on LinkedIn and user gems. Celeste Berke [00:13:46]: And if you'd like to connect and talk to him about running, he also is in the big the big apple, so I can't imagine all the stops you have to opt in while you're doing your your run race or your run races your run routes, but also the content that you're putting out. We were talking about real world scenarios, what's going on within a buyer, what's going on in the process. People can really learn from your journey. So I appreciate having you on here today. Take care, and we will see you on LinkedIn. Blaise  [00:14:17]: Yeah. Celeste, thank you for everything. Awesome meeting you. And, yeah, when if you're ever in New York with the team, hit me up, and we'll we'll, Hopefully, we can we can cross paths Celeste Berke [00:14:27]: again. Thank Blaise  [00:14:29]: you.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Hello. Hello. This is Celeste. I'm here on the sales edge podcast with Alex, we met on LinkedIn. Alex Christian [00:00:10]: Yes. We did. Celeste Berke [00:00:10]: Where where you meet everybody in a business professional setting these days. And I'm so excited he agreed to come on the podcast, give a little insight into his world. We were chatting earlier, and I will let him introduce himself, but I'm just gonna preface this and say, like, it is not sexy, but it is absolutely needed. The industry that he's in and we're gonna chat about what's unique about his sales story and his sales ad. So Alex from Raleigh, not Raleigh Durham, Raleigh. Alex Christian [00:00:42]: Yes. Yes. Celeste Berke [00:00:42]: Take it away. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Alex Christian [00:00:45]: Well, hi. I am a Alex Christian. I'm an account executive, like you said, based out of Raleigh, North Carolina. I am happily married to one of the best women in the world and a dog dad to an absurdly energetic little border collie I like you you kind of mentioned, I come from a very nontraditional sales background. That's actually how we connected. So I grew up in a sales family. Both my parents were in sales, so I swore up down and sideways. I would never get into sales, you know, mom dad. That's not cool. I wanna do something exciting. grew up in Louisville, Kentucky, which is UPS's WorldHub. So everybody's parents flu for UPS. And the really cool dads were the guys who would pull out VHS tapes of their time in the gulf war. and you'd see some real life top gun videos, and the aviation bug hit me hard. So I went to school for aviation, I'm actually a corporate pilot still, but as a commercial pilot, you are just a glorified bus driver of the sky. And so I was down in Tampa, flying these little charter flights to the keys every day. And my wife was back in Raleigh, and I was miserable. I was miserable. And so I said, well, what can I do as a career that I can take what I've enjoyed and transfer those skills? And so I sat down, and I said, what I really love is I love solving complex problems, and I love connecting with people. Oh, no. That's sales. So I started looking around shopping my resume out. I had a a buddy who was in like, ERP sales, working for Oracle and NetSuite. And so I was like, alright. This sounds feasible. and it shot my resume out. I started with a local company here in in Raleigh. They're an SAP bolt on shop. So they tie into SAP and Oracle and JD Edwards, all of these really boring financial c r CMMS Suites and ERPs, you know, maintenance and financial tracking, and they help companies tackle maintenance planning and scheduling and health health and safety permitting. And so I had to learn all of that from scratch. I knew nothing about oil and gas or mining and metals, an ERP in CMS was alphabet soup to me and learned that world very quickly. a master data company was then acquired. And when you said you're stealing my words here, it is not sexy because it's It's talking about how records individual data records are stored in these systems and how do we standardize them and keep them clean. So I that's what I've been doing for the past 3 years. I'm currently in the middle of a transition. I'm actually getting back to some of my roots, which by the time this goes live, I'll have shared more about, but staying in that inventory management and scheduling space. But with my own personal spin on that. So looking forward to the the transition coming up. Celeste Berke [00:04:09]: Something that I think it's really important is highlighting, sharing stories from individuals who have, like, an unlikely, you know, background, right? This I I myself, thought when I was 27 and I was leaving the south to move to California, I need to get into sales so someone takes me seriously by the time I was thirty. That's really what I thought. And so looking at this background that you had, I was like, this is a really interesting story to tell. you know, a pilot now turned sales person, but I can see when you're in that inventory space and the timing. I mean, it all kind of correlates to what you'd assume a pilot has massive responsibility for understanding all of the widgets and the gadgets and the inventory of fuel and timing and all of that. So How did you get that first company to -- Alex Christian [00:05:01]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:05:01]: -- say, hey. This is totally how we would bring someone on board with this background. What do you think it was at the time? Alex Christian [00:05:10]: Well, I had I had bartended through college and waited tables through college. And And what I said is, look, I've got people skills. I have the soft skills. And then when you go to the the commercial flying world, aviation world, now there's this task management, crew management. How can you balance your priorities I likened it to risk management in in aviation because there's a lot of crossover there and how we analyze data analysis in the aviation field? How are you tracking your spare parts for your aircraft? Those are things that are dealt with day in and day out. So if I can understand complex systems, if I can understand how to manage my own tasks and and priorities, And if I can take these transferable soft skills that I've developed over the years, then making some phone calls sending some emails and connecting with people to solve a problem. That sounds like a one to one to me. It you have to add up a bunch of these tiny non integer parts to add to the 1, but it's a one to 1. And they saw that, and they took a chance on me. And so I started out as a BDR. They didn't just bring me in as a senior AE, of course, but That's where I learned and started, cutting my teeth as a BDR. Celeste Berke [00:06:36]: And I'm sure that anxiety of not having people's lives in your hands or at stake every single day. Was the woke was a welcome change? Alex Christian [00:06:44]: Yeah. So mostly what I had been flying down in in Tampa was cargo. And and that was that was fine by me because, yes, there is this there's a couple books that I really liked. One was called Human Factor's played by Sydney Decker. And the other one is the power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. And those are two books that I read through moving up into the the airlines. And the power of habit talks very explicitly about these human variables that we can control. And so the the mantra that I kind of took was I can control what I can control those are the variables that I have power over. I can influence the things that I can influence. And then there's this third chunk that I just have to accept. Everything else. Right? So I can control some things. I can influence other things. but there's a whole lot of stuff that's outside of your your power. And so, yeah, in in aviation, I can control my own skill set. I can talk to ATC and maybe shorten her out or change an approach. But if a gear decides to just shear off, or if, hydraulic fluid decides to just fail and spray everywhere or if you lose an engine, which has happened to me, Those are things that you just you gotta do the best with it. Compare that to sales, and now it's alright. I can control my outreach. I can control my tone. I can control my intentionality. I can influence champions, work with them, And then I gotta accept all the other variables that are outside of that. So the stakes are a little lower, but it's equally enjoyable. Celeste Berke [00:08:31]: So we talk on this podcast about the sales edge, and I think you've alluded to it a little bit where I ask individuals who are on here, guests, you know, what is your sales edge? I'm a firm believer that all of us have that kind of thing. Maybe we've arrived at some point in our career, like, hey, I'm really good at it, or this is a philosophy I stand by or this is kind of my thing or my spin. What is that for you? Alex Christian [00:08:54]: Yeah. I I like to steal methodologies from everybody and make them my own. And I think that's something a lot of people do, but I'm open about it. I I think when you are able to take what other people do well and and learn from their mistakes early on. That's that's really great. There's the classic saying that only a fool learns from his own mistakes. And a wise man learns from the of others, well, coming from this nontraditional background where, yes, that's an asset on its own, coming from a world that I I haven't built bad habits but now I'm able to learn from much smarter people co op their strategies take what works and apply that day in and day out. So it's kind of a a cop out in a way, but, you know, taking strategies from spin selling or Todd Caponeys, the transparency sale, or there's that guy Keenan. Yeah. There's an gap selling book or something like that, but taking what works for these people who have done this for 30, 40 years, finding what works and applying it on the first go round has been really helpful for me. So that's it's kind of a cop out answer. I I get it. Celeste Berke [00:10:14]: Not at all. I think it's very much in line with. We were talking prior to this about being in that, you know, the research triangle area, right, where there's these schools that are heating, like, heavily when it comes to athletics. And I think we've seen time and time again, especially as technology increases you know, this is really what everybody is doing, especially for athletes. So it's not one way, right? You have a different coach for strength and conditioning and your PT, it's taking all of this knowledge and how do you learn from other people and then kind of put your own 27. Alex Christian [00:10:50]: Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:10:51]: Yeah. I talked with someone last week who gave some great advice of he encourages his employees, his sales team, to have a board of directors. So look outside of the organization. Who are you going to for prospecting help? Who are you then? Probably women have this, like, more than men. Right? We're like, well, we go to my hair lady and then I go over Peter. I mean, they're all people who are sharing. Alex Christian [00:11:14]: I go across the street to my barber, and he will ask me all kinds of questions. I ask him about his life that I I I will be open about it. I'm happy to say I don't know, and I don't know what I don't know as well. So I'm happy to be curious and learned from other people around me. I'm not a Duke fan. I'm not a UNC fan. I make Kentucky wild cat fan. So so I won't use coach k as the analogy, but, like, what Calopari is doing in in Kentucky You're right. These coaches that all initially had, this is the way. This is our structure. This is our now you see wait a second. your system looks a lot like his system, and you might be better rivals. You know? And that's the way I wanna view it is there is no I'm I'm not dogmatic. There is no perfect way. There is no perfect methodology, but there are a lot of great methodologies, and I can I can start borrowing from each of those. So if if one day I write a book, it'll be a hodgepodge. My list of references will be half the book, I think. Celeste Berke [00:12:25]: Absolutely. And it, you know, it's interesting. We all do this naturally in life and you take little bits. I think, you know, top performers, people who are constantly challenging themselves and and reading and consuming information because you want to hone and perfect your craft, but also yourself as a person, So it sounds like that has really allowed you to embrace this world of technology, even when it that, you know, not very sexy. Right? But it's necessary. Right? This is all the back Alex Christian [00:12:55]: end. Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:12:55]: It's all the back end stuff. Nobody thinks about but it's not little robots that are doing it all. Right? People are managing these processes and looking for ways to make improvements. Exactly. -- said coming up through sales, I know you said at one point, you were tapped to be a player coach. Right? You still carried quota. You were now managing a team, often we just get thrown in there. Like, here you go. You're a sales leader. And you're like, I have arrived. And then you're like, oh my gosh. What am I doing? you're learning from others, a lot of times we're giving maybe advice. Maybe we bust a myth. You know, my mom probably still to this day would tell me that we just did this another day. She's like, you need to call your sister. You need to ask her. And I'm like, mom. I can just text her. Like, I have to constantly remind my mother. Like, I don't Alex Christian [00:13:44]: There's a quicker way. Celeste Berke [00:13:45]: I don't have to call anybody and wait for them to call me back, but she's just, like, convinced. Like, not gonna get an answer unless you call. And we're given that in sales too. Like, this is the way, this is the method. If you do this, this is gonna happen, and there were a lot of movies out there. that said, like, that hardcore pull pen style of sales is the only way. So if you had to say, hey, I, I saw a myth or I wanna bust 1, or I wanna put one out there, what would that be? Alex Christian [00:14:12]: I think I wanna get super philosophical for a second. So I even in my own life, you'll you'll wind up hearing me wax philosophically on occasion, but I think Getting to the core of sales, there is this misconception that sales is dirty, where sales is slimy, I think we all have that picture of, like, Danny Davido as the car salesman in Matilda. Hey. Let me steal your money. And and I I think honestly, growing up in a sales family, I I just thought sales was boring, but it wasn't until I started becoming a young adult, an adult myself that I'd I was like, oh, yeah. Sales is slimy. No. It's not. I think I had a little bit of shame in saying I was in sales, like, I would you see it all the time. Sellers will try and, like, hide behind these fancy titles that we've given ourselves to make ourselves sound like it's not sales. And I think, really, the the switch flipped for me after and so I grew up in a a family that it was you read the Bible and then you read how to win friends and influence people. Those were the 22 books. And the modern version of how to win friends and influence people is probably Todd Capone's transparency sale. And he he talks very openly about if you are building trust, it it comes from openness and transparency and honesty, and there's no shame in that. At the end of the day, if I'm solving a problem, then I'm doing you a service and helping you. And that is something that should be admirable, and it should be done with integrity. Right? a lot of people do make sales slimy in the same way that a lot of people would make financial reporting slimy or in the same way that there are slimy doctors and nurses, or there are bad lawyers. There are bad pilots. I've seen a lot. So, you know, I think every profession is what you make of it and who you are, your integrity, you know, who you are when nobody's watching. And fundamentally, sales is like any other profession. It should be around connecting with individuals, solving problems, and doing so ethically. So I think that's my biggest myth that I wanna bust. I am I I was one of those people who would try and say, oh, I don't wanna sell you anything. I I had to switch that real quick because, yeah, I am, but I have no shame in it anymore. So that I think that's my big one. Celeste Berke [00:16:51]: I love that. And, unfortunately, we're seeing more of a stigma around the sales profession as technology and AI and automation increases. I'm seeing it. I actually spent about 30 minutes today. Like, given some recommendations to people who had reached out to me, right, with their sales pitch and and me telling them, you know, why this is horrible, why anybody who doesn't need digging is going to realize they're not pre they're not preaching what they're putting out. Right? And it I think we are fighting this uphill battle of when we are -- putting things out at mass quantity because we're trying to make a number. We know the more touches we have with someone, right, the more opportunities We take away this personalization. We are discrediting salespeople who are out there every day grinding and hustling and doing it in an authentic manner. thank you for that. it is rampant, and I think we're gonna see a huge shift because it's it's given a bad names of companies who Alex Christian [00:17:51]: And there are still organizations out there that are doing it the right way, and they've always done it the right way. I don't know how many shout outs I'm allowed to give, but the folks over at Lavender are probably industry leaders in personalization and doing things with integrity, but you know, I I think that's I see this as a trend that more and more companies are seeing that and that it doesn't work to just be like Wendy's on Twitter and edgy and pretend to be a brand. It it comes down to each individual on as a part of your organization, how they present themselves. and how they interact. So I see it changing. Celeste Berke [00:18:30]: -- that comes from trading and modeling, finding people within the organization that are doing that well. And if you don't have that within your organization, like, take a hard look and and time to clean some house because what we're putting out there, it's really tainting salespeople and and, unfortunately, we still have to bust this myth that all sales people aren't slimy. I Alex Christian [00:18:50]: I use all the time. It starts with you and me. It's it's a Celeste Berke [00:18:54]: -- Alex Christian [00:18:54]: I'm not in sales. Celeste Berke [00:18:55]: Right? Like, I never thought I was a salesperson and, like, I'm having a conversation. I'm solving a problem. I'm looking for a problem. I'm information sharing. but when we come from a place of desperation, it's usually very stinky for Alex Christian [00:19:11]: Yes. Celeste Berke [00:19:11]: Well, I've really enjoyed having you on here. I try to keep these short and sweet under 20 minutes. We're right there so that individuals can learn from you, but also some of those book recommendations, which will shout out in the show notes as well. I'm really excited for error date because I think you will have made a transition, and I look forward to keeping up with you and seeing more of your content on LinkedIn and your funny sarcasm, but obviously a very intelligent person who -- Well, Alex Christian [00:19:40]: thank you. Thank you. Celeste Berke [00:19:41]: No. It's not only I mean, if if I was gonna be in a place and and the pilot, had a heart attack and you were on my plane, like, I want you to fly that plane. So -- Yes. Alex Christian [00:19:48]: I I think that's every man's dream is to hear, like, I mean, you you don't want harm on anybody else. Right? But every man's deep down goes, I can land this plane. I can do And and then Celeste Berke [00:20:01]: -- Movies are made of it. Alex Christian [00:20:02]: So -- it it would be not a it would be a horrifying nightmare, but a dream nonetheless. Right? Celeste Berke [00:20:09]: I've got this. No. Truly. I can fly a plane. Alex Christian [00:20:12]: Yeah. There's there's a whole Celeste Berke [00:20:13]: -- You keep up your license then? Alex Christian [00:20:15]: I do. I do. Okay. It's more of a hobby now. Yeah. it's been nice. Sometimes we'll fly out to the outer banks or but I did have one VP at one point say, you know, we could probably expense this. And then I showed him the the average gas prices versus just a a one way flight on Delta. and that that was nixed pretty quick. So and then the other thing you can check out every Wednesday, I've decided that LinkedIn is we need a little upbeat positivity. So I've started sharing hump day recommendations with movies and books and music. Yeah. Yeah. So Not just a pilot. I'm also a big nerd. Celeste Berke [00:20:53]: So this is gonna this is gonna come out on a Wednesday, so most likely you will have shared something. Alex Christian [00:20:58]: I'll have a podcast recommendation to share now. Celeste Berke [00:21:01]: I know. This has been awesome. You're also a podcaster by hobby as well. So, like, multi talented here. Alex Christian [00:21:08]: You know, I am the really boring Ryan Gosling of the world. or Justin Timberlake. Like, I sell. I kind of fly on the side. I have a side podcast with 3 buddies that I've known for a decade. And and then I, you know, pop up here. Celeste Berke [00:21:27]: -- Spirit line yet. You need an alcoholic beverage backing. You need to get that to, like, really, really, really solidify your stature or car commercial. 1 of those 2. I Alex Christian [00:21:38]: it it's time. I'm gonna start calling Carvana and White Claw and whoever answers first. You know, that'll be that'll be our sponsor. Celeste Berke [00:21:47]: Awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure. I will end this here. Thank you so much, Alex. Alex Christian [00:21:53]: It's been great. Thanks a lot.

Celeste Berke [00:00:03]: Hello. Hello. It is celeste. I am here with Daniel Palacios. Super excited to get to talk to him. Fun fact, daniel and I met through a training he attended. A new training. Well, it was a revamped training under the ASG umbrella for Gap, selling all for sales leaders. And what's really interesting, this was before I was certified partner. So I was peeping in on the class, watching Keenan, and Daniel stood out because he kept engaging in conversation, and it stuck with me many months later. And so, you know, here's someone who's selling in which, you know, most of us here in the States, we don't even think of other countries and doing deals in other countries, but here's someone who's selling into the Latin America space. And I'm so excited to introduce Daniel. I want to start off by having him share a little bit about his role and the company where he is right now. Daniel Palacios [00:00:59]: Thank you, Celeste. It's an honor being here. So, as you mentioned, my name is Daniel Palacios. I've been in sales for the last ten years. I currently work for Deal is the fastest growing startup in the history of software, basically, and I'm leading the Latin American team. We cover from Mexico to Argentina, excluding Brazil, and I've been in leadership roles for the past three years. Celeste Berke [00:01:25]: Awesome. And obviously bilingual. Do you speak more than two languages? Daniel Palacios [00:01:29]: I do. I also speak Portuguese, so it's Spanish, my first language. Then I learned the English. My dad and my mom were very keen for my brother and myself to learn English. Okay. So when I was applying to the sales manager role, I wanted to differentiate myself from other candidates, and I knew that the other candidates didn't speak Portuguese, so I started learning Portuguese, and my classes were in six in the morning, so it didn't mess with my golden hours for prospecting. Celeste Berke [00:02:00]: Oh, wow. I mean, that's totally unique, right? You saw that there was a gap. We talk a lot about how do you identify the gap? So for you advancing your career, there was a gap in gaining another language, so that's so awesome. I'm so impressed. Three languages, so that's what trilingual? Daniel Palacios [00:02:19]: Exactly. Celeste Berke [00:02:22]: Excellent. Okay, so you're based in Bogota, you work for Deal, you used to work at HubSpot. What made that transition to Deal? Daniel Palacios [00:02:30]: That transition to Deel happened to, I would say, one of the times that I wasn't in my full space. I did had a mental breakdown. I had to reach out for help. I was with my psychologist, and she gave me a lot of guidance, and mental health is not a priority for me. I used to work, I don't know, 1214, 16 hours a day, and I knew it wasn't sustainable. So one of the things that I needed is a change. HubSpot is a great company. I owe a lot of things to HubSpot. When I moved back from Canada, I was living in canada when I joined HubSpot. So I moved from Canada to Colombia, where I was born and raised, and HubSpot gave me that chance. I was nine months, basically without work when we came back. So HubSpot gave me that shot to become their first account executive. It was two of us. So I was one of the first two account executives that opened the Latin American office. And then they gave me the first shot to be the first team lead based here, the first sales manager based here. So I'm very thankful to have so, but I was in a time that it wasn't the good company for me. My dad has a saying that not every kid is for every school, and not every school is for every kid. So I had to make a change, and Deal reached out to me. I met their leadership. It was amazing. It was a different stage where the company was at, and they gave me something that I need at that point in time, which was a little bit less stress, less workload, to be able to come to my full potential again. Celeste Berke [00:04:03]: Yeah, and thank you so much for sharing. I think so many people in sales can relate to this burnout factor. I mean, I had it right around age 40 when I was in corporate. And you're trying to juggle all the things and you realize, like, this isn't sustainable, my quality of life, and you have to balance that. And I think really leaning into that, asking for help, asking for resources, just like a team would ask. So that's a whole nother topic on mental health and sales and the burnout factor. But I want to ask you today something that was really interesting and stood out to me was you're building a team, this Latin American team, and you stood out as a sales leader. And often when people kind of are rising up as a sales leader, there's something that they do or something that they stand by that sets them apart. I like to call it the sales edge. So you and I were chatting earlier about this. I'd love to know what is really unique about your process that you've had with people you've coached and or mentored. Daniel Palacios [00:05:05]: I would say my sales edge is onboarding, setting people for success. And in my opinion, you have three types of reps that you will encounter. You have a rep that's already a top performer, which is what you do with this person. I had one in the past. She was 130 plus percent rep. So how can you wow. Make in particular her the best version of herself? So she was even a better salesperson than I was. So I look in the mirror and say, how can I best support her? So I told her what type of goals you want to achieve? And this was during my time at this P club at most companies have, but HubSpot had this Founders Club. So I told her, why don't you hit for thought? She told me I didn't thought about it. You could do. So I help her design the plan and my goal or my support with her was keeping her accountable and giving them basically the math to know how much she needed to achieve and anything that was not revenue related, I will take it on my plate. Everything internal. All that bureaucracy that companies start to when they get bigger so she can focus on selling and thank God she achieved that. So that's one type of red you're going to face. The other one is a rep. That it's. 100% rep, 110% rep. How can you make that rep better? Then I also had one rep like that and I pushed him. He got to 130 and in my experience, he's one of the most consistent reps I've met when he and I work. He was 28 months in a row hitting quota. We had a monthly quota, which is in my opinion, something really impressive. So that's the second type of rep that you face. And third one is the ones that are below 100% or struggling reps. We can call it two, so let's say below 100%, like they're 90. Can you challenge them? They basically are at the number. How can you support them to either become 100% plus reps or top performers or they want to go into different roles. So you have to have that honest conversation. I always help people transition. At HubSpot, I had two reps on my team that were promoted to managers at Deal. I have had three reps that have been promoted internally. One went to onboarding. He wanted to be an onboarding manager, so I helped him be. He was my first top performer here at Deal. Then I had my second top performer. She wanted to go to account management because she wanted to sell more install based deals and have longer relationships with customers. And then my third top performer here at Deal, he moved a couple of months ago into mid market in account management because he wanted to move into a higher segment. Or I usually work in SMB. He wanted to move into mid market, so I help him. And basically my team is brand new. So I'm in a position where I onboard people, in my opinion, is one of the skills that reps that have worked with me tell me that I onboard really well people and I give them the tools to be successful. So that will be my edge, onboarding people. But I've done the other two as well, like having 100% rep moving to 130 and 130 rep moved to, I think she did like 180 or 200. It was really off the charts. So onboarding? Yes, go ahead. Celeste Berke [00:08:32]: That sounds like as a leader, you are looking at each individual, right, not what's in it for them, and then you're willing to take part in how do I help you get there? Let's make a plan. Let's personalize the plan. So for each individual, it's really a carved out niche plan versus one plan for everybody. Daniel Palacios [00:08:52]: Oh, 100%, you have to do one plan per person. I think it's cookie cutter approach. You cannot do that because every person is unique. Every person has different skills and abilities, and you have to put them in a position where they can excel. And in my opinion, it's a two by two matrix. We saw this in the trainings, skill versus will. It's a skill and behaviors. And I told Kenan the behaviors have to be a skill or will. Do they have the skill or they have the will to do it? If they don't have the will, they don't have the behaviors. It's a really complicated situation. But if they have the will and they lack the skill, it's on me as a sales leader to give that person what that person needs to be successful. Even if I don't have it. I always look around and connect with people because I know I won't know everything. Celeste Berke [00:09:46]: That's so awesome. And then being humble enough to say, hey, I may have hired someone who has a different skill set than I do. Maybe they excel in sales in a place where I don't, but I can still find them resources or plug them in so that they can keep up leveling and eventually move on. So I think that's swallowing your ego and your pride and saying, hey, I can help you, even though you might be further along the path than me. Let me tap into my resource 100%. Daniel Palacios [00:10:14]: I connect people with other people that can help them better than I can, because I know what I know and I know what I don't know and what I don't know. I usually have some people that's something I encourage my reps. Always have a board of directors. This was advice given to me. Have a board of directors for yourself so you can know who you can reach out to for specific advice. It could be how to sell complex large deals. It could be how to prospect better. It could be how to transition within. You have to have those kind of people in your network to support them, to support you. Celeste Berke [00:10:51]: Oh, I love that. A board of directors for your own self, right? Like you're your company, and you have a board of directors, people you can go to to help upskill you and move you along and just get feedback from. That's amazing. And then you also shared with me that anybody that you do coach, train, or have on your team, you ask them for a recommendation. Daniel Palacios [00:11:10]: I do ask them. I think it's more than 50 recommendations on LinkedIn that people have written over time. When I was selling, I told customers to write my recommendations. Now that I'm in leadership position, the reps that I've coached or people that have approached me to write something that I have impacted them during our time working together. Celeste Berke [00:11:35]: Yeah. So that's a note out there from Daniel to all the sales leaders. If you are not asking team members to write a recommendation from you, you are missing out on that social proof. He is proof of having over 50 recommendations on his social media, on LinkedIn that are a true testament to a sales leadership. So bravo to you. I think that's probably an untapped gold mine for many sales leaders who are sleeping on that. Daniel Palacios [00:11:59]: Yes. Celeste Berke [00:12:01]: We also talk about a sales myth, and I know you're huge on onboarding. So many companies keenan actually posted about this today, like, stop focusing solely on onboarding for your product. So I think there's a myth to be busted here of people can learn the product. And I'd love for you to say what you then do after teams come back and they've learned all they can about the product, how do you work with them and bust that myth that. Daniel Palacios [00:12:29]: It'S like product first, product first will happen? Because it's what most companies have on their onboarding. Like, they teach you their product. You have to know what you sell. It's not something you cannot go your life without knowing the product you sell. But it's not the only thing that you should learn. When I onboard people, the first thing that I have them do, it's a problem identification chart. So you're very familiar with that. I stole that from Keenan. And they do it on their own. They do it during the first couple of days, and they could get it right or wrong. It doesn't matter. It's the exercise of thinking in the shoes of your prospect. What can they experience? Because I always tell my team, when you ask a person to imagine themselves, their company, using your software, it's a heavy lift. Like, it's really heavy because you're putting them to imagine a world that is completely unknown. When you ask them of a problem, they can relate. And if you can relate, it's easier for you to connect the dots. Because if I tell you, hey, you face X, Y, and Z problem, they will say, oh, yeah, I experienced it daily, monthly, whatever. But it's very easy to relate to something that you have already lived than to imagine something that it's completely new to you. So that's the first thing that I tell my team, do a problem identification chart. They start doing it, they bring it to me. We review it together, we have a conversation. Then I told them, go back to the team. Not only my team, I currently have another sales manager in LATM. So I encourage my reps to go to the other reps as well. And then if you want to go to the US reps or the EMEA reps or APEC reps, you can do that as well. It's a matter of how much you want to see across GEOS. The problem that our prospects face, even though we sell the same product, sometimes the use case varies. So they start to build that and they realize how it becomes an easier way to speak with the prospects. Because you're speaking in their world. When you speak about your product or service, you're going to speak on your own world. It's easier because you're in control. It's rare that your prospect knows more of your product than you do. But when you're speaking about their problems, you're in your prospect world, so they're going to know more about their reality than you. And they could tell you, no, that's wrong. And people don't like being wrong, but that's how you get to learn more and more about their world and be more curious and actually really help at the end of day how they can leverage with their existing reality or product or service. Celeste Berke [00:15:16]: And how long have you been taking that problem? Like that problem identification chart and using it with your team and a problem focus? Like, when was that shift for you? Daniel Palacios [00:15:27]: I read the book. The first thing is I read the book, I think it was 2019 when it popped up. Celeste Berke [00:15:34]: Oh, wow. Daniel Palacios [00:15:35]: And I really got in love with the methodology and starting doing this not only for myself, but then when I became a manager first time, I started doing it for my team as well. So it was around 2019 when I read the book. Then I started following Keenan. I started doing a couple of courses that he published online and I asked him twice to send me a signed book. And he says, no, I have to go to the mail thing and have it shipped. It's really complicated. Celeste Berke [00:16:05]: We don't have books. I have a book here. I'm sure I could snag you one. We're going to have some at Saster so I could probably get a sign. Daniel Palacios [00:16:14]: I appreciate that. So I've been asking it will be a dream come true. Celeste Berke [00:16:18]: He's the person that okay, I'm going to write that down. Daniel Palacios [00:16:21]: It's one of the person that I admire a lot because it changed my perspective on how to do selling. Celeste Berke [00:16:30]: Yeah, and it sounds like from what you've been working on with your teams and obviously from your recommendations, that you really do take this approach of, yes, you have to learn about the product, but how do we learn about the problems that our customers are facing? And it's such a different way. Teams often feel like, oh, I never thought this in depth because typically they look at it as a transaction. So I can say you're one of those sales leader unicorns. And that's why I wanted to have you on here so you could share a little bit about what's unique in the way that you approach your team as far as the sales edge and then busting that myth that yes, it's all about product. Product is important, but if we're not speaking the language of our customer and understanding what their problems are, we're just another person selling a product. We were chatting earlier. We both have little kids. I mean, they're still kind of toddler, I think they still call them. We're both in that same boat of having little ones at home and working. But I truly appreciate you sharing your information with us today. I'm going to encourage everybody to go to your profile and check out those recommendations. I think that's something that's really unique that you're doing, and it is hard to humbly brag about yourself, but when other people are doing it, it's nice to read that and really see the impact that you're having and also send your customers there as well so they can get a feel for the team environment. It's like to work with you, not just coming from your own mouth. So I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Welcome to the sales edge. This is Celeste. We're here here with Carl. Carl Ferreira [00:00:05]: I missed it. You missed it. Pereira. Yes. nailed it. Celeste Berke [00:00:11]: Ferrera. So that's the case in point. If you do not have your voice pronunciation, which I think you do on your LinkedIn profile, put it there. Those names are tough. Names are tough, but I'm so excited to to to chat with you today. We were just chatting behind the scenes. Imagine getting a DM from Chris Walker, Mister LinkedIn himself, who basically blew LinkedIn up post COVID, with his podcast and his way of sharing content, getting a DM car all saying, come join my team. So as we talk about on this podcast, awesome sales leaders who are in the space doing amazing things with teams, and we wanna know, how did you get there? What is your sales edge? So we'd love to hear from you. What is your unique factor? Carl Ferreira [00:00:57]: That's a big question there, Celeste. Thanks for having me. what is my edge? What is my x factor? I think there's so many things you have to do well in a deal. Right? Deals are, super complex, managing lots of folks, lots of personality, lots of motivations, your own inter your own internal pressures and shortcomings, right? Am I a quota? Am I not? What is the business need? Is this a good fit customer, how good of a fit. So, you know, sales is really about being able to manage all of these things super well. Keep a calm head. And The X factor that is mine, and I believe is the X factor for companies that I consult, etcetera, is what I call deal drive. Let me define that. think my x factor is deal drive, and I would define deal drive as it's like a I don't wanna say, like, it's it's like gravity. It's like, you know that Soles, there's a force inside of a deal that moves it forward. Right? And it's not like booking the next meeting because you could book a lot of meetings and actually go nowhere in a sale. you could do a lot of demos, but you're still early stage in a deal. Right? So there's like this invisible force that actually drives towards a decision, whether it's a yes or no. Both of those are are are are positive outcomes. Okay. And I think that's my x factor. is being able to stay on course with does every sales activity actually drive the deal materially forward or closer to a decision. Because if you don't manage or leveraged deal drive trademarked. just kidding. Then you just, like, you were on sales cycles. You'll lose them. You're not sure why. They'll take too long. You'll do a whole bunch of extra activity and shit, meet new people inside the organization, and add complexity to the deal that doesn't need to exist for the sake of making a decision and getting to a decision, which is the end goal. Celeste Berke [00:03:03]: Yeah. So I I I love that term that you have Deal Drive. I think in from a a a gap selling perspective, we call it that next yes. and and most people think it's sales activity. Right? I'm gonna do this one thing. I'm gonna send this. And for you, it comes from that internal what is happening in this deal to keep moving it forward? What is that next micro, right, agreement something you have to send. They have to get it information share to keep this deal alive, so it doesn't flicker out. So where do you think you came up with the name Deal Drive? Carl Ferreira [00:03:38]: I don't know. I made it up for this podcast. Celeste Berke [00:03:42]: The trademark is coming. He's he's buying the domain. He's buying the domain right after this. Carl Ferreira [00:03:47]: paperwork's been filed. I don't know where it is. I don't even know if I wanna name it that. I've played with a lot of names related to, like, physics, you know, because again, it is this invisible force. that I think pulls or pushes a deal towards, again, a decision. But, that's I don't know where I got the name, but you're absolutely right. Like, a next activity, a next step doesn't actually mean that we got closer, materially closer to a decision. And I think a lot of frameworks and gurus out there, it they imply that even if they don't say Right? I'll I'll give you an example. A lot of sellers after discovering will just, like, say, like, cool. Well, the next step is a demo. And I always like, especially with my consulting customers. I'm always like, is that the next step, though? Like, is is that the right decision? It may be. And most of the times, it, like, is, especially in maybe, you know, a mid market, try to transactional sale. Right? You go from a discovery to demo to proposal to close. It's kind of like a 2 to 3 call sale. But I always wanna, like, who said that a demo is the right next step. It's an assumption, you know, and, like, how are we defining what is best. And I think the best sellers are thinking outside of the box saying, hey. No. Maybe like a discovery part 2 is actually a better fit for call too because that will better advance the deal. I can bring in more stakeholders to have a deeper business conversation because a lot of times I found that the buyer doesn't suggest a demo in the next step. You you get some aggressive buyers, especially the ones on LinkedIn who are like, I'm gonna see a demo on the first call. But I found that in true consultative sales where there is a considered purchase, buyers actually, they don't. They're like, Carl, you, like, what do I do next? Like, you're you've been a very compelling first call. I'm interested. I need to bring in my VP, Celeste. I need to bring in my CRO, Jim, And we need to figure out, like, and go deeper here. The answer is not a demo. It's to go deeper. And maybe we will show some of the product. During the services business, maybe we'll take a deeper dive in the second part of that call into the services a little bit more, right, of what it looks like to solve for the business challenges that we've uncovered and the gaps that we've identified, which are much wider than the buyer initially thought. And so, again, deal drive takes all those things into account and makes the best decision on the fly in the context of this opportunity. for the buyer so that they can make a decision and not just get the next piece of information, which is typically worthless. Celeste Berke [00:06:21]: Right. So it's it's all that undefined information that you uncover during that discovery that, you know, we we can't move forward. It's not in our best interest or the buyer's best interest to move forward without this information. It may come from a third party. It may come from the stats. You need an NDA. I mean, whatever it is, And I think what's really interesting, and I love to know before we move to our final or second question that we do on this podcast, I see so many people, companies, sales leaders who are still in this place of, I heard someone straight out of college, they we give them a script. You know, this is the disco, and then they're onto onto the demo, and then it goes to proposal, and then the pipeline is just all f's up because It's like nobody has eyes on any of it because they're not following this, like, intuitive process of wait a sec. I don't have this information. That person wasn't on the call. This might be needed. What about this new piece of information? How do you work with your team at Refined Labs for this, like, consultative approach to, like, a a gut instinct Carl Ferreira [00:07:27]: Yep. Celeste Berke [00:07:28]: In their sales conversations. Carl Ferreira [00:07:31]: As well, I mean, it's it's destroying assumptions. The assumptions that have to do every sale like this. And this is like the misconception. This comes from like, oh, we have a sales playbook. Yeah. I'm fine with a playbook, but, like, every sales a little bit different. You can't assume that they're all gonna be the exact same, right, even like in HubSpot. Right? It's an assumption that the deal stages are so nice and neat and linear. Oh, that's what I must the next step is the next stage in my pipeline. No. It's not. Right? That's just how your CRM is structured. That's not how a deal is structured at all. Deal's ebb and flow. They're like a dance. Right? They advance and they come back and new people are introduced and new business challenges are uncovered and priorities change because There was an off-site halfway between your deal and now where there's new information on the direction of the business. So to what I train my team is to, like, stop making dumb assumptions and ask in real time what is the right step based on the information that I have to take next. And if I don't have all the information to take that next step, then I gather it. I don't feel pressure to move to a next step because it's the thing I need to do without getting the information I need. And I always tell my team, like, what's under the table with this buyer. Get it above the table. Ask the hard questions. What happens now if we do this? What reservations what concerns. I wanna get all that stuff so I can resolve concerns and advance their actual conversation towards a decision. So I just train my team again. to answer your question in a in an extremely long winded way. Like, stop with the assumptions. And that takes a while to beat that out of your head because we've been trained for forever. Right? It's their whole careers. We carry these assumptions with us. And so it's like a really an unlearning process. that says, no. That doesn't have to be the next step. And it'll and allowing your team the liberty to screw up and make a decision on the fly in a deal that maybe isn't the right one. That's okay. I'd rather you you, like, eradicate the assumptions than make a chess move that wasn't the right one. Cool. We can revisit that coach to it. I'd rather create a flexible mindset than a rigid mindset that says, boom boom boom boom. These are the deals. This is the stage. This is has to be nothing in sales has to be anything. So Celeste Berke [00:09:55]: -- And that usually that usually stems from this, like, cloud that's hanging over all of our heads of, like, this is a sale. And if I this is my quota, and this is what the deal size is and kind of pushing that out of the way, and, like, we're in a conversation. Right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna take all the outcomes off the table. It's about, you know, establishing yourself as an expert and providing value to your buyer and asking questions that really set you apart from everybody else. Carl Ferreira [00:10:23]: Your consultants. Yeah. Exactly. Like, I want more buyers to walk away from my calls and be like, I would have paid money for that. I would have paid Carl's consulting fee. for that time. When you have that frame, your that your sales conversations totally change when you're like, what it was I worth on a discovery call? early in your career, you're worthless. Right? But as you you're just like a qualifier. Right? You're just going through your questions, right, your banter, your music, or whatever your framework is, right, your spice, your spicy, whatever your your your Celeste Berke [00:10:55]: SPIN, your who who knows what'll come next Right. Carl Ferreira [00:10:58]: But one from HubSpot is wild. You'll have to Google it. It's like 40 letters long. But as you mature and you're like, okay, now more $50. an hour. Okay. I'm worth a $100 an hour. Oh, now my the experience and the the breath of knowledge that I bring and insight I bring to calls is worth 5, $600 an hour. It doesn't matter where you are. You shouldn't feel shame, but are you moving towards being like, a a lot of people, like, throw it out there. Like, who would want comp to be a consultative seller? I'm a consultative seller. This is like, but your proxy for measuring that should be would somebody pet paid you for that time. And that really elevates, like, your frame of quality for that. And so I, again, encouraged my sellers to think in that way. Move your consulting fee in your sales process up quarter over quarter and eventually get to a point where I mean, it's masterful. People are like, dang. I wanna talk to you more and deals advance faster And there's a lot of great outcomes that that, you know Celeste Berke [00:12:00]: -- Damn. I'm sure a lot of people who will listen to this are like, oh, I need Carl. It's my leader. Right? Carl Ferreira [00:12:07]: Let's go. Hey. I'm available to fractionally tell your leaders, come hire me and select. So Celeste Berke [00:12:13]: -- Alright. So deal drive, that's where we're going. Carl Ferreira [00:12:17]: k. Celeste Berke [00:12:17]: We need to be listening to more from you on that as as you educate us all on just like consultative selling approach, but also so many myths. I mean, you log on to LinkedIn, and it's, even I, I get flooded with all these people. Like, scaling and doing well and AEs and SDRs need to do this and teams and the sales cycle and conversion. I mean, it's it's a lot of noise coming at you. and there's a lot of either misinformation or we are just changing so rapidly that things need to be challenged because we can't continue to do the way that we've done business. Insert. Whatever AI. I don't even know what the next thing is. Carl Ferreira [00:12:59]: Yep. Celeste Berke [00:12:59]: So we talk about sales myth. So I want to hear from you this concept around sales mess. What's something that you either believe to be true or don't that you implement? day to day in your world. Carl Ferreira [00:13:11]: Jeez. So many myths, Celeste. What a question. Yeah. I mean, I'll I'm gonna give you 2 myths. 1 of them is gonna be insanely brief, and then I'm gonna dive into my second myth. The first Celeste Berke [00:13:21]: myth -- And the myth isn't that Carl can't wear that shirt, because let me tell you. That's a bold that's a bold move. So all the mists out there that you can't wear bold shirts, that's out the window. Carl Ferreira [00:13:32]: watercolor, flowery polo. It's this is this is the real deal. Right? With a hat, long hair, is he homeless? We're not sure. So, yes, thank you. But first myth is that that will be brief, but then I'll go to the more important myth. So I gotta get 2 out of the way because you mentioned it. You mentioned LinkedIn and how many there are. And I think the myth related to LinkedIn is that there is one way to do stuff. And that's what is implied in a lot of these posts. right? Don't do this. Do this. It's like everything has worked at least once. Right? And so I think the myth is just like, that I have to do it this way or not. And I again, with my sales team, I try to eradicate that. Sales is chess. sales is a dance between 2 partners. Right? It's it's it's dynamic. It's collaborative. It and it can change depending on the movement or the chess moves of the other party. Right? Okay. So I'll shut up about that one. Wanted to get that one out. The the myth that I see harms at least my customers and a lot of salespeople that I chat with is the myth that staying on the theme of deal drive is that gathering information advances a deal. So an example is Vance. medic, med pick, spice, blah blah blah. Right? A lot of these are information gathering frameworks. And the assumption is that, well, if I gather these things, I'll get me closer to closing a deal. It's totally false, especially in a cons in a consultative sales, you know, motion or environment. Right? I can get here's an example, Celeste. I have budget for a lot of things. I am not committed to buying -- Yeah. Celeste Berke [00:15:14]: -- Carl Ferreira [00:15:14]: any income. Right? I have budget for a nicer car. I drive a Dodge Ram. Right? I have budget for new clothes. I wear this shirt every day. Right? And so, like, to gather that bit of information, Celeste, hey. Do you have budget for this is, like, they could very easily say, yes, or say, my budget is $50 or, yeah, we can find the budget That doesn't answer the most important. That doesn't advance the opportunity. So the myth is that gathering, are you the authority? Do you have a timeline? every buyer has these things. Every human has these things to a to a degree that has nothing so less to do with a commitment. So changing your mind away from gathering information that I plug into the CRM because my RevOps team needs me to do this for forecasting purposes. And I I got the economic buyer and I got the pricing and I got how the deal gets done and everything that you need at for medic. it doesn't advance a deal. It's information. And a sale doesn't happen with the passing of information. It happens with the exchange of commitments, mutual commitment, So, again, I push my team to think less about gathering information and more about gaining and gathering commitments budget. I have a budget. But am I committed to solving my pest control problem? Yeah. Or my revenue leakage problem or my discovery problem or my top of funnel SDRs can't book book meetings for shit problem. I have budgets for all those things. but am I committed to solving them? That's very, very different. Am I committed to investing the money that I have and my time and energy to implementing this xyznew thing to solve for this. Those are 2 very different lines of questioning and conversations. And so I wanted to debunk that myth. Your information gathering is worthless. Commitment gathering is where big deals are done and accomplished. Celeste Berke [00:17:10]: Yeah. Definitely. And I and we harp on that as well. Right? It's the budget goes out the window. Right? If if you're solving a big enough problem, if there's a big enough gap, if there's a huge impact to an organization, even for ourselves personally. I mean, you talk about the Jodge Ram. I drive 2011. 2011. Do the math here, people. Nissan Rogue. This past February. it's fully, you know, was fully paid off within the first couple of years. This past February slid down a hill into a delivery truck, like, bang the crap out of the side of my car. Carl Ferreira [00:17:41]: Dang. Celeste Berke [00:17:42]: Have I got it fixed? No. I live in a dry climate. Like -- Carl Ferreira [00:17:46]: Yep. Celeste Berke [00:17:46]: -- we're not getting any, like, rest issues here. I literally drive five miles a week or a day, five miles a day. Take my kids to school. Sometimes I pick her up. Like, I don't drive the car. I work from home. We have another car. So it is not a big enough problem for me to solve, especially in this economy, to go out and buy a new vehicle. Do I have the budget for it? Sure. Do you wanna spend it? No. So they think, you know, case and point there is as buyers ourselves when it comes to anything personal we do. We go through this whole process. because it's a change management process. Right? Do I have a problem? Am I committed to solving that problem? Do I actually want to do it? And am I willing to do it with you? But then when we get in this seller's seat, we totally forget that the buyer is going through that same thing, and we have to show them, like, this change management process. So I love that you're taking this approach with your team. I think there's so much opportunity out there for others to take a step back and, like, let's have a human side of selling. So any parting words here as we go, we like to keep this short and sweet. Carl Ferreira [00:18:51]: I know. And I've taken it, like, super long and sour. No. I appreciate you for having me. Celestus has been awesome. And, if anyone has questions or anything, like, reach out, talk about been selling, consultative selling. I think I've taken you long enough here. I super appreciate you. Celeste Berke [00:19:07]: Yeah. And I would also say, you know, definitely follow Carl, I was so impressed, but we connected. I sent you a t shirt. It's actually this one. Carl Ferreira [00:19:16]: It is that one. I've got my Celeste Berke [00:19:17]: own name. You're selling when you're selling, you're not selling. the same thing about this, like, commitment culture and this consultative selling, but I also love seeing what you're doing on LinkedIn because you're not just throwing out, like, statistics and things that can be done better. You're, like, challenging the status quo and sharing insights and challenging other people and it's always fun to see. I know you call it, like, some trolling, but from really a genuine place. So we'll have your information linked here. I hope you this sparks a few more conversations and, you know, as Refined Labs continues to grow, sounds like you're a leader. Many people will be hitting up. So I truly appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being here. We will see you in 1 year from now on a next step so. Carl Ferreira [00:20:03]: Put it on the calendar. 

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]: Here we are on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm so excited today. Hi, Celeste. Your host here with Amy Rahovchak. Amy Hrehovcik [00:00:09]: Oh, my gosh. Celeste Berke [00:00:09]: Right? Did I nail it? Amy Hrehovcik [00:00:11]: That was perfect. Celeste Berke [00:00:14]: I know we practiced out of time. No, we've actually been chatting and it's like, holy crap, holy shit. I guess I could say that there is so much more to talk about. So I'm really excited that link in led us here. I saw you randomly. This is what LinkedIn does, right? It's like the universe saying you need to connect with this individual because there's something about them that you're drawn to. Definitely. Your profile. Let's just say without a standout profile, nobody knows you exist without your sales edge. So I want to talk in the next 15 minutes about what is that? So my idea of sales is that you don't necessarily have to be like, the greatest at it. Right? Amy Hrehovcik [00:00:53]: Right. Celeste Berke [00:00:54]: I think you actually posted about this. It's freaking hard. You don't just wake up one day and say, I'm going to be in sales and I'm going to excel at it because I practice one time. No, but typically over time, what we find is someone carves out, like, a little sales edge, right? Something that makes them unique, their go to whatever it is. We're going to find out from Amy today what that means in her world. And then we will wrap it up with busting a sales myth that she either believes to be true or is ready to dispute. So, Amy, tell us a little bit. Just who are you? Why was your profile shown to me? And I immediately was like, yes, let's message this person. Amy Hrehovcik [00:01:34]: Oh, my goodness. Alessa, it's an honor to be you know, sometimes I find it's best to just not question the LinkedIn gods and just be thankful for the gift of a new friend. Celeste Berke [00:01:44]: Algorithm works in your favor. Amy Hrehovcik [00:01:45]: That's right. Universe algorithm. I guess it's all kind of merging together. But I like to describe myself. I'm a revenue human for life. I was raised by a sales leader. I sold enterprise tech for a decade. I was sea level at a startup that was acquired. So that was cool. Built out two sales enablement departments, and now I've got a boot camp called the Buyer Experience Boot Camp and quick little Plug. Open enrollment right now, we start again September twelveTH, but who's counting? And, yeah, I'm excited to be here and dive into all that is great and hard and scary and messy about the greatest profession on the planet. Celeste Berke [00:02:24]: Definitely. Yeah. Thank you for that. And you're kind of in this transition point yourself. But what I loved about what you said is that you're kind of like tapping back into knowing your true north, which is the name of my LLC randomly and where you want to. So, like, what is that? If we say, like, Amy, what's your sales? Like, what is that thing that at the end of the day, you're like, I'm great at this. This is what makes me a salesperson. What is that for you? Amy Hrehovcik [00:02:53]: Yeah. Okay. So I wrote down two things, actually, because I couldn't decide between the two of them. But I want to preface this idea with just a quick precursor that I believe that there's an art and science to everything. Right. And I think what most people get wrong about this idea, you hear it played out in the right brain, left brain dialogues or debates, like, are you creative? Are you analytical? Like, it's nonsense. There's an art and a science to everything. And just like sale, there's no such thing as a natural salesperson. Right. Which was the post I think you were talking about. There's a tremendous amount of work that goes into it in the same way that we've never met a natural lawyer or a natural doctor. Right. That doesn't exist for sales either. And I mention that because I think a key piece to developing an edge or finding the art in how I want to sell or how I did sell it requires me to first understand and master the science, the fundamentals of selling. And then once I have my head wrapped around the fundamentals right? And then you can kind of start to lean into that edge. And I will finish this thought with, like, when I was learning to sell. Celeste, I'm dating myself here, but I stopped listening to music in my car for an entire year in favor of books on CDs. Do you remember those? Celeste Berke [00:04:18]: That was a thing not too long ago, I listened to one on a five hour drive. Still a real thing if you have a CD player. Amy Hrehovcik [00:04:27]: Oh, my God. Well, there was also a Tom Tom in the car, and the Maps Quest directions were printed out, like, strewn all over the seat. Okay. But anyway, so learning the fundamentals. Now, that said, to your question about what's my edge, I think there were two that really were fundamentally different in how I approach sales versus how, let's say, a sales boss or the average sales boss would prefer to have a rep execute. And the first was that I did not worship at the altar of my sales process. Right. I understood that the value that a sales process delivers is not to the buyer, right? It's to the company. It gives them predictability on how much revenue they're going to generate at a certain time. And in fact, this idea that the sales process or excuse me, the buying process or journey, to use a trendy keyword is a linear thing is nonsense. That is not how buyers buy. And so one of the things that made me really stand out is that I aspired to understand the buyer's journey and meet them where they were at. And then the second thing, I think, that really allowed me to hyper focus on my own effectiveness was I was ruthless at qualifying which opportunities I was going to work at any given time. Like, absolutely ruthless. And so there was a very specific criteria that I needed to see, and a lot of it I really did develop for myself because I knew how I sold and what worked and what didn't. And so, yes, those are the two things that really, I think, brought an edge in my direction after, again, the grueling part of learning the science. Celeste Berke [00:06:17]: Sure. And what's really interesting about what you said is this buyer centricity of we have to put as a seller our thoughts and the way that we want the direction to go and our desired outcome kind of aside and really get to know our buyer. So I love how you said you became very buyer focused, which I'm sure meant you were a detective, right. Figuring out as much as you could about people who worked where, what were they focused on, what was a priority to them, what wasn't. And that is going to be different from customer to customer to customer. How much time did you spend researching just like, people? Amy Hrehovcik [00:06:57]: I'm laughing because I don't even think I could put a number on it. I used to say, I have a self, I can't even remember the phrase. But I've done so much reading on the psychology of purchasing, on the psychology of the buyer, on just the psychology of decision making and biases and all those things, and we're talking about 2020 years worth. But I could talk about my favorite report right now, gartner's State of Buying Report in 2023, and the top ten factors that go into vendor selection. Right? So it hasn't stopped, but I'll add one more. When I go to conferences, one of my favorite questions that I would ask of people just while milling out and about is, which session are you most excited to attend, which is a proxy of what are you most excited to learn about, which is a deeper proxy of what is the business problem that you're kind of working on right now? And so I never gave up a good opportunity or I never missed an opportunity to, to your point, set aside my own agenda, which is hard to do when you are going to get fired if you do not generate a certain amount of revenue every quarter. It is exquisitely difficult, but you got to figure out a way to do that. And then it's really pretty misleading in that when you do figure out how to do that, the size of the deals that you manifest, the referrals that come your way just because you do show up differently, you do. Spend the time to understand and uncover the most important thing to the buyer and then really root out. How can I help them achieve that impact? Celeste Berke [00:08:34]: This is all juicy tidbits and we just could keep going and going, encourage any listener right? I mean, this is someone who's sitting in front of me on the internet, who I'm just like, wow, tell me more, tell me more about that. And something that happened to me early on in my sales career was just like figuring it out, right? Throwing mud at the wall. And we both started in a time where the internet wasn't really a thing, right? It just started. So for everybody who's starting their career now, you are miles ahead of what information is available at your fingertips, right. And you have to keep sharp if you want to continue to learn about buyers and the change. We have a huge change coming with boomers. My parents are boomers, right? Like 76, 78. My dad is still working, but soon he's exiting the well, probably not, but he may be exiting the workforce, right. These great minds who are going to be leaving and now we have a whole new generation coming up, 50% of millennials in decision making roles, like the way people interact, the way people buy, it completely changed, right? And it will continue to change. And if we are not looking at research and talking with people about what's going on in their world and getting really inquisitive, we are missing the mark and staying stuck in doing things that ultimately aren't going to help us shape our career. And I will tell you, even as someone who's going to be 44 next month, the amount of learning that I've had in the last year, in the last three years is more than the ten years prior combined. Never stop learning. And I love how you said you're just feeding yourself that information so you can stay current and you can stay sharp. Now, I want to end with something that I think universally everybody in sales has been told in one point of their career a hard, you must do this. This is a widely held belief that exists out there. What is the sales myth you were once told, taught to follow that you know now that is not true. And I want to bust that myth today. Amy Hrehovcik [00:10:49]: There's so many, I don't know how you expect me to choose just one of them. I think we got a tremendous amount of group think going on and let's say tech sales in particular. It's pretty wild. The sameness. Okay, so if I had to choose just one, I would say the purpose of a question, right? When I think about how most sellers are taught to approach the sales conversation and I'll ask most people, what is the purpose of asking a question during a sales call? Right? And generally you get some kind of response back, like to gather information. I'm trying to bant them, we're trying to understand their needs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of these things are true. However, if we take a step back right, and the goal of selling really is you're trying to help someone change their behavior, trying to make a better decision and move in a different direction. So what is a precursor then to a change in behavior, especially a team of people, right? It's a change of thinking. And then you can take it a step back. What is the precursor to a change in thought? And that is and always has been a great question. And so the purpose of asking questions in sales is not self serving. It is not to gather information about your buyers. It is to help them think differently about the business problem that they're experiencing so that they can attack it in a different way and achieve the impact that you bring to the table. So that's the big one, is the whole point, the whole premise of questions during discovery. Celeste Berke [00:12:27]: I'm, like, in awe. Amy Hrehovcik [00:12:28]: Yes. Celeste Berke [00:12:29]: Tell me more. Tell me more about this. The premise of gap selling is along the same lines of typically people go in and they have this I'm going to check all these qualifications off. And it's rooted anybody who has a problem, it's rooted in this change management belief and the neuroscience behind change management of, you can say you need to go on a diet. You can say you want to change something, but if you don't agree, you have a problem. If you don't admit you have a problem, if you're unwilling to make that change, nothing's going to happen. And so it's right along those lines of, and now I'm going to go look this up even more and want to talk to you further about this. Now I'm intrigued of really the psychology behind it and right, opening up this Pandora's box that as salespeople, what is the psychology behind our buyers and us as sellers, and how do we meet that in the middle in this sweet spot? So thank you so much for sharing that. Amy Hrehovcik [00:13:26]: Of course, anybody that's interested in reading further on this particular topic, I think the great Adam Grant did a great job with his I think it's his most recent book, Think Again. Really spectacular work. And it changes the way that you start to draft questions. It changes the way that you think about the buyer journey. Right. And I don't know, it's just like a very different way to approach it. I would say the runner up was that win rate effectiveness is greater than quota achievement. Change my mind. Right. The average win rate in tech sales right now is like, 17%, which is insanely low. And it doesn't need to be that way. Celeste Berke [00:14:08]: Right. And we're not talking about, all right, that 83%. Like, what's happening to that your sales. Amy Hrehovcik [00:14:14]: Process you're so obsessed with, like, you're setting your team up to lose 83% of the time. Have fun with that. Celeste Berke [00:14:22]: That could be how you sign off on all your podcasts. Amy Hrehovcik [00:14:25]: I love that. I may feel that. Celeste Berke [00:14:26]: That's really good. Adam Grant, one more time. What is the book adam Grant. Amy Hrehovcik [00:14:30]: Think again. Celeste Berke [00:14:33]: Look at me writing that down. Think again. All of you take a note. Think again. That is an awesome recommendation. Thank you so much, Amy. We try to keep this super short because the attention span of everybody is a goldfish. So probably going to watch us on two point speed, which I love and it's my recommendation, 1.5 to 2.5 or two. You can't go about that. I don't think it's funny. Amy Hrehovcik [00:14:55]: I'll take you right in the middle. I'm a 1.75 girl. Celeste Berke [00:14:59]: I think it depends. I find myself definitely 1.5. I sound just normal. I've realized I talk so slow. So, any parting thoughts for our listeners today as you are the first to kick off this podcast, the Sales Edge. And we have a great lineup coming up of just really unique individuals in sales who have been there, done that and are doing it still. Any parting words from you? Amy Hrehovcik [00:15:23]: Yeah. One of the best things that you can do for yourself mentally is to redefine your own definition of success, right. If you were born or raised in a Western culture, we define success as based on an outcome, right? When I get married, when I win this deal, when I buy this house, then I will be happy when the challenge right with operating well, first of all, that's incorrect. The joy to be found, the happiness to be found is in the journey. However, that mindset is exponentially more problematic for us as sellers because our outcome never comes, right. You hit your month, you hit your quarter, and what do you get? A weekend to celebrate it and then it starts all over again on top of if you do not do this, then you will lose your job. And so focus very hard on changing that definition for yourself and understand that success is in the journey. Success is in the inputs that you put in, particularly the work, the practice, the effort, the going and talking to buyers after you lose a deal or win a deal to figure out why and then recreate that moving forward. That's what winning looks like in this profession. Celeste Berke [00:16:30]: I love it. And, yes, I'm all about the journey myself because I've been there. I've gotten the big bonuses and the big paychecks and flew myself first class when I got my master's at George Washington and I was like, now what? Right? It's anticlimactic. It is about the journey and the process and the people you meet along the way who can have significant impact on your life. It has been such a pleasure hearing your short snippet. I will link everything in the show notes so you get a whole slew of new followers because the content you're putting out there is awesome. And I can't wait to celebrate your sales journey as you continue to impact lives. So thanks so much for being on the show. Amy Hrehovcik [00:17:10]: It's my pleasure, Celeste. Thanks for having me. Good luck with the new journey. Woo.