Facilitation Stories

Todays episode explores the evolving relationship between facilitation and hosting, highlighting how both practices can create transformative spaces for individuals and communities. Peter Pula shares insights from years of cultivating community through participatory dialogue and generative journalism. The conversation delves into the distinctions between facilitation often structured and outcome driven and hosting, which embraces emergence, deep listening, and co-creation.   They talk about:  The difference between facilitation and hosting The use of time triads and deep listenting in group practice Learning from mistakes and adapting when things dont go as planned Moving from command-and-control to particpatory approaches Quote highlights "I feel like I am participating in the unfolding of human evolution and the evolution of community, and I don't know how that can do anything but make you smile." "And by naming the failure it becomes something else and it becomes… Something powerful… "  "Before it was a passion. Now it feels like an essential work." Links Todays Guest The Subsidiarist https://peterjpula.substack.com/ Citizen Studios https://citizenstudios.mn.co/about Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterpula/ Website: www.peterpula.com Cultivating Community Gatherings (free): https://www.tickettailor.com/events/peterpula/1786857 Todays host: Sam Moon: Faciliator www.linkedin.com/in/theboymoon123 Edited by:  Cassie Austin Leaderful Action To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ 📧 [email protected] 🌐 https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales _______________________________________________________________________________________________________   Transcript: Sam Moon & Peter Pula Sam: Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the Community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Sam Moon, and my guest today is Peter Pula. Peter is the founder of Axiom News, generative journalism, the Peter Borough Dialogues, and a proud member of the Generative Journalism Alliance. These days, he's mostly concerned with, in his own words, my beloved cultivating community going on six years now, and where I first met Peter during the first few weeks of COVID when I joined an online global gathering of folk exploring how we could be together apart during what was to become very uncertain times with long periods of lockdown. Peter crafted a space from which people shared experiences and stories where deep relationships began to form and has continued to do so amongst the community that first got together and others who have joined since. So honoring that my own facilitation journey has been shaped very much through Peter's commitment to life given approaches of facilitation, it is an absolute pleasure to welcome you here today, Peter, and on that note, and before we get into some juicy questions, please introduce yourself, who you are and what you get up to in your world of facilitation. Peter: Who am I? I think I will say today that I am a person who deeply cares about the wellbeing of humanity. I'm a person who's. Gravely concerned with the prevailing trends at the moment, and I believe that hosting and facilitating people in dialogue that brings to the surface. Their deepest gifts, talents, intentions, and passions in a way that encourages us to be differently together, might at one time have been a nice to have and now it's a need to have. So I'm fully committed to the practices of facilitation and hosting. With the view to, well, for me it's a calling and a critically important one. And that's why I'm glad to be here talking with you, Sam. 'cause we've travelled for a number of years. We've got a lot of, water under the bridge, a lot of experience under our belt. And, we've traveled through some of those crises together in community held in a certain way. And so I think we could say that's also what I'm up to. Sam: Thank you, Peter. You put that, in a really lovely way. And we've got some questions that we're gonna explore together, but if I can just invite you to expand a little bit more on, your experience of facilitation and hosting and how you have made a distinction between the two and how you hold those. Peter: When you look to the definition of facilitation and facilitator, there's not much there that I wouldn't say also applies to hosting. I think in a lot of practices though, there are some differences, and it might be sort of a spectrum where my idea of the practice of facilitation is that when facilitating, we are inviting people into a fairly, predetermined process and trying to bring them along to more of a predetermined outcome than you might be if you're hosting, it might be a learning outcome, for example, we want, by the end of this process for everyone to be able to say, speak French or to understand a business process or to have come to some understanding about how to better manage their relationships with their peers. And then way on the other side of the spectrum on hosting, I think there we are then trying to surface what's most alive for each person in the room. With a view to exploring and discovering almost endless possibilities. But, then ensuring that each one of the possibilities that actually wants to manifest is nurtured in a way, by the way, we dialogue and connect and decide so that they actually can come to fruition. I think there might be a little bit more wildness and willingness in hosting than there is in facilitation, I think they're arts that are closely related, they're in the same family. And I know as hosts sometimes there are moments where I absolutely must facilitate almost with an iron fist. Knowing how and when to make that call is part of the hosting art. Sometimes a super clear process is necessary. Sometimes a process set is co-created by the participants who have some skill in how to be present to one another is also necessary. So I don't think it's a, it's not an either or, it's a spectrum and there is a relationship between the two ideas. But I feel like in practice they are slightly different ideas. Sam: I really like how you describe, the wildness and willingness, that can take you into the labyrinth of hosting and discovering what's alive. Whilst also what you are saying is recognizing that facilitation process where it needs to be tighter is also about recognizing when it's important to do that around certain things, rather than being wedded to a certain way of doing something, it's about understanding when one needs to come forth, and in terms of where your, start from and where you want to go. Peter: If I could, Sam, there might be one other distinction, and it would be interesting to test this with your listeners and their experience because, I don't move in circles where we describe what we do as facilitation. So I could be completely wrong about this, but there has been some discussion in the hosting arts world around one of the suggestions that, in hosting, it's considered a very important principle that as a member of a hosting team, you also participate in dialogue, and in many facilitative sessions, it seems important that the facilitators stay observant and outside of the dialogue. So I'm just wondering if that's a distinction that holds true, or if it's not actually the case. Sam: I think it's a really good question, Peter, and I think there are different views within that, depending on the ideology that it's coming from. And I know there is that conversation that takes place around, is a facilitator neutral or not. And there's clear opinions on both sides of that, but I think in terms of the experience that we've had together and in those spaces, I would agree that the host becomes more part of that conversation and is involved in the dialogue. But it's about not influencing it. And I think for me, I probably stand on the side of that, lean more into using questions to draw things out rather than put myself forward. Peter: Right. Sam: I also find that when I put myself forward, it can deaden the air a little bit as well. Take the life out because, unless invite invited to teach, don't teach. Peter: Yes. Beautifully said. Sam: So what I wanted to kind of touch on, what is it in your world of hosting and facilitation that's making you smile at the moment? Peter: Well, you know, Sam, you mentioned in your introduction, this space we've been holding together for the last five and a half years. It's come to be known as cultivating community and for whatever reason we've been, that's every fortnightly on Fridays. For five and a half years, we've seen probably 600 different people join that space. There's a core group of, maybe 12 or 15 that come very, very regularly, and another extended group of maybe 45 or 50 that drop in, come and go, who, you know, take comfort in just knowing that the space is there. It's the group of us has started to talk about how, not only have we become a community spread across several continents that are quite committed to the community and to each other, it's, also, been spoken that it's also a practice field for how we be in community differently.  From that, I've had the delight to hear from a number of members of that community. Their lives have been changed by being part of that, to such a degree that they're also bringing these practices, into their own communities and morphing and changing them to suit their own skills and ways of doing things like improv, for example, these are adjacent practices that, work to the same principles and grow together. And that group has been in so much practice for so long. It's a blessing for me, one, to be part of the community, but two, to see the effects it's having on people's lives and in the world. And three, because we're in practice so much, I can also as a host, fully participate in it. And it is for me, a healing place to be. I feel like I am participating in the unfolding of human evolution and the evolution of community, and I don't know how that can do anything but make you smile. Sam: It's certainly, yeah, absolutely It does, it is a place that gives life and gives energy. And with that, your view, were talking about the effect that it is had on people. Tell me a bit more about that and what it was around the way in which you have been facilitating, hosting that space that you think may have enabled that or created the conditions for it to have that effect on people. Peter: Yeah, and we haven't really come up with a really smart, clever way to talk about it, but we've used the idea of time triads, and for your listeners, we can maybe just describe that quickly, like we bring people into small groups of three, every person has three minutes to respond to the question of the moment, which, you know, we've got a few ones that are pretty solid, pretty tight, but we also sense into what the question is for each small group. So these are 90 minute sessions. We usually get three to four rounds of small group time triads. In which each person has three minutes to respond to the question for that particular small group without being interrupted by the two listeners. We can go pretty deep into the practice of relational presencing and what it actually means to be present to a person who's speaking without being distracted by the need to maybe cut them off so someone else can have their turn, or because you're curious about something or because something they've said triggered you. We could go for hours talking about the method if you like. So that round of these small groups and then people come outta these small groups and they're reflected as a whole, but what's alive for them now? Not a report, but a reflection of what struck them about that, time together. It's a process by which people come into contact with their inner teacher, and find their own voice, speak it in all their strength and beauty, and then take turns witnessing another, and then another. Do the same. So the complexity of the field is like tremendous.  I think over time it's become something of an island of coherence. I guess another really important piece about the methodology is that it is something that happens at a consistent and regular time and has done so for a very long time. So it becomes a structural, stable point in people's lives, which makes it something they can count on, something that helps 'em co-regulate, makes it easy for them to invite others, gives them some sense of, stability and constancy. So, you know, those are some of the architectural pieces of that. And then there's the idea good questions or provocative questions. Like every small group, every time triad, presences a question that we have come to define as being these three things sufficiently ambiguous, deeply personal and anxiety producing. And you can ask a question like, at what crossroads do you now find yourself? To the same group a hundred times. Every time their answer will be different and it will be somewhat evolved from where they were before. And if a community continues to visit those kinds of questions together, people experience tremendous personal shifts. And find themselves in relationship enough with other people to take their next courageous steps into whatever it is they want to bring alive in the world, wherever they are. And that's the sort of effect we're seeing, like people are bringing this kind of work into their churches, into their workplaces. They're shifting the way they interact with their colleagues at work. They're even changing narrative practices. They're becoming less and less comfortable with the command and control paradigms in which most workplaces work, which denigrate and disregard a lot of what people have to bring. So when you develop that kind of like experience, coherence, relationship, assuredness, because you finally got to the root of what's important to you. You move in the world differently and that changes the world. You become a, a resonance center of your own Sam: Yes. And from sharing that space with you and being part of that space, that's something that I've witnessed and experienced myself. And often people will come out of a conversation, and will be feeling I didn't realize I was going to say that Peter: Yes, Sam: I didn't realize I was going to feel this and that, has a kinda real, sort of magical experience, which then people return to. And so the things you are talking about there in terms of the conditions that you are creating is that it's kinda regular, it's consistent using the sort of a method and approach of time triads, people come back and report on what they experienced. And it's on regular time and using the questions that have a structure are the things that create a container for that space, create an energy for those things to emerge and link into what has shaped the hosting practice in many ways. What was it that helped you get into that work? Tell me a little bit about your journey into that. How did you discover this way of working? Peter: I was thinking about that and there's a couple ways into the story and it seems like I always tell it differently, but, I started in news and in a strength-based environment and that led me to the point where I was leading an organization that had, between 12 and 17 people working for it at any given time. I started to realize being the leader of an organization was not something I was that interested in doing. In the old way of command and control, set the intention and take the hill, that didn't suit me at all. So I started to, given that we were doing strength-based journalism, we started to see the kinds of life-affirming patterns that you can actually start to sequence out through powerful questions. And the journalism was lifting up what people wanted to create in the world, telling a story about it, and then people would come to their assistance and then something would change, and that would be our next story. So I started to come into contact through that work folks like the asset-based community development movement and the appreciative inquiry movement and practice, and appreciative inquiry, of course, is an organizational strength-based organizational development model, which is fundamentally democratic. So I started to take some of what I was learning there, and then of course, appreciative inquiry, things like open space started to show up in the art of hosting community. And it struck me that this is a completely different way, this is a life affirming way you can lead an organization. Like you either trust the people you work for or you don't. And if you don't trust them, you're probably gonna command and control. If you do trust them, you can create different structures, you can facilitate different kinds of interactions that actually bring to the surface all the best that every person in the building has to bring to the purpose under which you're gathered. And that's what got me into it. So we turned what was then Axiom News into what became World Blue Democratic Workplace for seven years. Eventually we decided not to continue with that certification because we didn't feel their standards were high enough. You can run an organization in a deeply democratic way that cuts out the need for so much bureaucracy and so much control that because the people in the room who are committed to the cause, finding ways to work together in their own ways actually cuts through a lot of the nonsense that gets in the way. Like even the great Peter F. Drucker made the case that 90% of what we consider management is actually interference. Facilitating dialogue and connection and collaboration in the kinds of ways we can, and the ways that we are, can fundamentally change the way organizations work and the way people experience where they work. And that's what got me into it. So I tried these things out in organizational settings, a number of nonprofits as well that I was connected with and involved in. And then, um, COVID hit and  uh, Sam: And here we are. Peter: And here we are. Sam: Yeah, and what you are, what I'm experiencing in terms of as you're sharing that and describing that and articulating that is how deeply powerful it is, it's not this one directional or one dimensional way of working. There's a real existential kind of aspect to that and a power to that. And the words that sort that I picked up was, trust. In terms of learn your journey of that and trust in people. And going back to where you were talking about where the hosting side of things can be wild and wooly. I can imagine and from the experiences I've had myself when I've delivered in a hosting way, trust plays a key factor in that as well. In terms of any facilitation. Peter: You gotta trust yourself. You gotta trust the room. You gotta trust the people in the room as a group, and you gotta trust the process. And the moment you don't, the thing collapses and you've gotta command and control it. It's almost like a spiritual practice, trust and trusting the people and trusting the room and trusting the process. It can take some intestinal fortitude, but once you see it work, you can have faith in it. Sam: Absolutely. So that's really interesting. What I was gonna ask there is what's the courage that someone needed to move into that space of trust rather than, I remember when I first started out in facilitation donkeys ago in particular youth work, I would have a session plan and I would work on that session plan and it would be dah, dah, even if it wasn't working, it's like, no, this is the session plan. Peter: Right. Sam: Tell me a little bit about your experience of that trust and kind of the courage that's needed around that. Peter: The name Blair Singer's coming up for some reason, but I ended up being in a thing that he was facilitating years and years and years ago, and he had this concept of as ising. And so when things started to go really wonky for me in a room, I figured I'd give it a try. And it's just like, I would just say, okay, wait, we can all sense that something's not right here. Sam: So is that is in, did you say? Peter: As is. Sam: As is. Peter: I don't even know if that makes sense, but that's what he called it. Just to see things as they are. I was hosting or facilitating and it just felt like something was wonky, something was not working. So I simply said, okay, does anyone else feel like this isn't working? All the hands go up, right? Sam: Wow. Peter: I say, okay, let's go into small groups of three and find the two people in the room, you know, the least. And let's just, without judging or critiquing what anybody in your small group says, just say what you're experiencing right now. And so they did that. And then people said, well this is my experience. Another person said, that's my experience. And what was interesting you hear four or five people, you realize they're all having a very different experience. So there's not one problem. So it becomes very complexified Sam: And what happens from there? Peter: This is something else that I think has been key for me is that I would stand in front of the room and say, well, and sometimes you have their hosting team, so you sit with the hosting team, maybe while the community's in their small groups, the hosting team sits aside and says, what's a good question for us? What's the question that wants to be asked now? Or you can also go back to the room when they come back and say, all right, what's a question that we'd like to sit with now? And then people start popcorning them up and then you whittle it down and then you find out what question the room wants to be asked, Sam: Right, Ok. Peter: and then you're back on track. So I mean, in that there is some structure, right? Sam: Such a beautiful way of shaping something as a, what do I do when things don't go to plan, when all my anxieties are kicking in? How can we reconnect with the group that we are with? Peter: There's a lot of letting go of your ego in that. Like you can go, oh, I had this brilliant plan. I was up all night thinking about it, maybe even many nights. And you, gotta let it all go and say, okay, well. 'Cause people do want the thing to work. And they do want to get something out of it. So there's a lot to work with there. And it could be that the thing's gone wonky 'cause you got in the way. So get, get out of the way. Sam: And there's a freedom there, isn't there? a freedom that you're creating. You're creating an agency. Peter: and then everyone thinks you're some kind of jedi san. But the fact of the matter is you just buggered it up and got outta the way. Sam: Yeah, and there's so much reflection afterwards from that as well, in terms of the learning. Peter: There is, it's very powerful, because each person has their voice. A friend, a colleague of mine by the name of Peggy Holman, who's a brilliant facilitator and fantastic thinker on these things, she says people resent feeling processed. Sam: Right. Peter: So if you stay with your process and it's like they feel like you're putting 'em through a spiritual meat grinder, it's right and proper that they would rebel against that. I think it's right and properly they rebel against that. So hold space for the other thing to happen that trusts that they also want this to go well, they also want to get something out of this. And your job is to, okay, if, if that path is blocked, then sit in a circle and think about what the next path is. Sam: Yeah. And there's a courage and a presence to notice that. have to Peter: But I think you have to have the kahunas to give it a try once. Sam: Yeah. And be ok. Peter: And even if it doesn't work, I mean, have a debrief because you're gonna learn something from it. Sam: Yeah. And I guess, what you are, you are touching on there is that being okay to fail in the process Peter: Yes Sam: And by naming the failure it becomes something else and it becomes Peter: Something powerful. Sam: Something more powerful, 'cause then people experience that together and in collaboration. Yeah. That is really beautiful, I mean.  I guess in terms of like, one of the other questions and you know, in a way you've, you've answered it was what fluff ups have you learned from, in the practice, because this art of hosting creates more space for that I guess. Peter: I talk about the wild and the woolly of the hosting, and I think you can get, I mean, I have gotten so excited about just the process and the connection that, there have been times when I have not brought enough context at the beginning. So, I remember one event, we were like on the third morning, a guy who was actually staying at my house as a guest, said to me, I think, Peter, you need to just get in front of the room and tell us what the hell we're doing here. Sam: That's interesting. Peter: There's a bit of context and , you know, there's another, you know, just recently, like after all these years, Sam, you know how it's important to start on time. Start together is the thing, like whatever time that is, we start together and we started this thing and it was one of these digital things and people started to trickle in. So we'd started an opening circle where the dialogue guidelines had been given and then four people were in it. Then there were seven people, then there were nine people, and it just turned into a rodeo. So in order for the wild and woolly to happen, you have to remember to set the frame, and that's context and very important to begin together. So even after all these years and all the mastery available, it's still easy to miss some key points that just go wonky. Sam: I love that in terms of the reflection on that and the root to it and reflecting back on, do people know why they're here? Peter: They don't. Sam: And sometimes people don't know why they're here, but if you started in that togetherness, everybody's starting from that point, almost whether they know why they are there or not, they get to learn that together because that's where you started from. And we are coming towards sort of the end of, this lovely conversation. Peter, and I'm going to ask, from the last, podcast that went out, Olivia asked her guest, Julia Slay for a question to bring into this conversation. And her question was, how has your practice as a facilitator evolved and changed? Peter: You did send this ahead of time and I've been thinking about it and I don't know if my answer is, but this is what's come up in my contemplation of that question. I used to believe that hosting, facilitating was a better way to conduct joint human endeavor and joint activity, and I think that was fairly light. I'm feeling now that it's a necessity. So there's a valorizing in what it is to be a host facilitator. You know, in the industrial age, management and accounting we're the thing. I think in the age we're heading into, it's hosting facilitation, and  narrative arts. Hosting, arts and narrative arts that are essential to human wellbeing and thriving. So I'd say that I'm taking it far more seriously. Before it was a passion. Now it feels like an essential work. So, that's what came up for me in contemplation of Olivia's question. Sam: Peter, thank you for that really thoughtful, beautiful response. Peter: I think maybe in, part of the like, span of history we explored, and the nature of your questions. And I think also Sam, 'cause we've known each other for so long now, we have a lot of shared experience. A great deal of, uh, coherence was made for me. So I'm having a sense of coherence and wholeness, which I think is actually the point of this hosting, facilitating. The idea is to create the conditions so that people can feel this sense of wholeness so they can be assured of themselves in a world that's gone crazy. Yeah, meaning coherence, wholeness. That was my experience. Anyway. How about you? Do we have time for you to say Sam: I have enjoyed this interview. It is my first podcast, as part of the new crew, and I think coming in with, you know, the anxieties of doing something kind of new for the first time and recording for the first time. I think what I'm taking away and what meaning it's having for me is in terms of, is the fun of the conversation. Peter: You got a knack for that. Sam: And I, it's almost like studying more what I have. Being involved in, I guess this is a unique conversation because we know one another and we've, shared a practice as to someone that I would be interviewing that I wouldn't be familiar with. So I think this is quite a unique experience and involved in the conversation and the shared experience of it. So it's given a new kind of a deeper understanding and a different way to explore what it is, that happens in that space as well. So I think taking away your kind of, you know, a deeper perspective of what's been experienced. Peter: Very nice. Thank you. Sam: So that brings us on to, my final question, and that is to invite a question from you for our next guest who we don't know who it will be. Peter: So let's just go with the old classic Sam, and invite your next guest to respond to, at what crossroads do you find yourself with regards to your work in the world? Sam: Beautiful. That'll, uh, give whoever it is, something to chew and ponder over. Peter: Possibly even a good place to start. Sam: Many of our conversations is exactly where it starts. So, Peter, with that, it is been a, absolute pleasure, kind of speaking with you today. Peter: Likewise Sam, always. Sam: Thank you for joining the IAF podcast. And, uh, thank you and be well. Peter: You're welcome. Thank you, sir. Sam: So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales. If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website, facilitationstories.com, and to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use? We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas, so if there is a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about, send us an email at [email protected] We hope you join us for some more facilitation stories again soon. Until then, thank you for listening.

In today's episode, Olivia is joined by Julia Slay, founder of Facilitation 101, to explore an often-overlooked part of facilitation: how we end sessions well. With 15+ years' experience across social policy, consultancy and learning design, Julia shares her journey into facilitation and what sparked her growing fascination with powerful endings. They talk about: Why endings matter,and common mistakes at the close of sessions — rushed checkouts, lack of closure, and clunky feedback moments. How to design meaningful endings, using buffer time, reflection, grounding and action planning. The power of circularity too. Extending the ending beyond the room, with follow-ups and reconnection sessions.Plus creative closing practices, from body-based grounding to sound and movement.     Quote highlights "A strong ending creates a feeling of completeness." "Reflection without action feels unfinished."     Links Today's guest: Julia Slay, Founder, Facilitation 101 https://www.facilitation101.co.uk/courses?tag=Intensive https://myfreelancelife.substack.com/?r=b48m9&utm_campaign=pub-share-checklist https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-slay-aa02b240/    Today's host: Olivia Bellas - Coach, Faciitator, Learning Experience Designer  https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/ To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ 📧 [email protected] 🌐 https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales   Transcript Olivia Bellas Welcome to facilitation stories. How do facilitators end up in the profession? What methods and techniques can we learn together? And we discover it all in this community Podcast, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Olivia, and today I'm talking with Julia. S. Julia is the founder and director of Facilitation 1 0 1, which began in 2023 after a simple request for a two hour session, which turned into a three day intensive. This is the course that now distills everything she wishes she'd known when she first started facilitating previous to all of this. She held a range of different roles, across social policy and charities, meaning now 15 years of experience designing and leading workshops, strategy sessions, and learning programs. So everything from away days and team development to full strategy. Retreats and international events. And in my opinion, also I must follow on LinkedIn for her generous and human sharings on navigating the world of facilitation. Julia, it's great to have you. Welcome. Julia Slay Oh, lovely to be here. And that was a very kind, generous introduction as well. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Olivia Bellas Well, welcome. Welcome. So really looking forward to chatting today, and I know that we have a focus area. Mm-hmm. Which we will get into. So that focus area is looking at endings in workshops and why they're valuable, how we can do them. But for that, I wanted to kick off with, something that makes you smile. So thinking about your world of facilitation at the moment, what's making you smile? Julia Slay Mm, well, lots of things. I often feel like I have somehow landed doing a job that doesn't really feel like work. And surely that's like the dream. Well, it is for me anyway, that it's, , each day mostly. There are some small exceptions that mostly I feel really. Energized, focused, joyful with the work. But something that does always make me smile is when I'm running the training side of the work, I do the facilitation training through facilitation 1 0 1, and I'm in a room with really brilliant facilitators who often come from quite a wide range of disciplines, and they bring in their experience and I get to see and learn from them. Which is, which is kind of the. For me, one of the secret joys of running training is that you are learning all the time as well. And there was a course I ran a couple of weeks ago and someone who comes from a kind of theater background and has done a lot of work with, um, theater of the Oppressed was running an activity with the group and I just. Had a smile all over my face. She did an incredible job. And I kind of walked away thinking, yeah, I mean, I got to learn something new today that I've never seen before, and I absolutely loved it. So that, that brings me a lot of joy in my work at the moment. Olivia Bellas Hmm. Yeah, so you get the opportunity to, to have multiple smiles because of all of those, different perspectives of facilitators you are encountering. And actually, I'm quite. Intrigued by that. So you had someone from a theater background. , What other kinds of facilitators are you encountering? Julia Slay Yeah, well it's, it's getting much more diverse. Mm-hmm. I would say a year ago I was primarily working with and training people who were freelance. So, uh, self-employed, , people who often had a combination of kind of coaching, consultant facilitator roles. They had what I would call capital F facilitation. So they were kind of identifying and marketing themselves as a facilitator and much more. Now, certainly in my orbit, I am meeting people who. Talk about themselves as using facilitation skills, but they are not necessarily,, freelance and they're they're often more kind of internal. I have had people recently coming on training from the navy, from big tech companies, from um, you know, kinda team leaders and senior managers who are thinking a lot about, , the way they run their team meetings and their away days. I'm really enjoying seeing people connect with the skill and, , making connections between the work they do and facilitation skills and being able to see how. Powerful it could be when they brought it into their orbit. And I've also, I guess, I mean I do, as you said at the beginning, I do a lot of LinkedIn posts. I spend quite, quite a lot of my time on there, and I have really enjoyed. Getting more international exposure through that. Um, and, and seeing and learning from people who are applying facilitation in very, very different contexts. Um, some brilliant facilitators in, uh, New Zealand, in North America. We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about some facilitators in Mexico who you had connected with, and I'm very keen to get their names from you as well.  Quite a lot in South Africa and in India. So I'm really, I, I feel like. You know, I'm very exposed to a, not even Eurocentric, like British centric way of thinking about facilitation. And I think through LinkedIn I'm . Learning a lot more about different, , countries, different , cultures and how they approach facilitation as well. Olivia Bellas  But you made a really interesting distinction between facilitation as a skill and I think probably. There's also the facilitator as a, a job or a role as, as well. , So I think it's, it seems like people are noticing the value of those skills in particular a lot more, , which is really, really exciting. And. And so how, how did you get here? Very interested in that. Lots of different paths and journeys I know facilitators have had, , to get to where they are. . Can you say a bit about . Yours? Julia Slay Yeah. Well, I. It, it was, I think, I think I know very few people. In fact, I dunno if I know anyone who woke up one day and was like, I wanna be a facilitator. So I think like lots of people, I kind of came into it by accident and was using the skills before I really knew the word existed. But, , I came through two roots. I think one was, well, maybe three. One was I had done a lot of work in my. Twenties working in a kind of think tank and consultancy, running training and workshops. So a lot of those workshops I would never have used the term facilitation. We talked about kind of hosting round tables and running events, but really we were trying to make them much more participatory to bring in structure, to bring in, you know, interesting ideas about how to prompt thinking and dialogue. So there was the kind of training, and I did some train the trainer training at that point in my life. And then I did some coaching training and went quite deep into team coaching and quality improvement coaching. Um, and that to me, there's like a very fine line between group coaching and facilitation. You know, that's quite blurry . , So those were I guess, the two skill sets that felt very facilitation adjacent. And then, , when I left my last kind of quote unquote proper job, which was at the Greater London Authority, so the GLA kind of policy role there, I went freelance and was labeling myself as like a strategy research policy consultant. Actually what people started employing me for was facilitation. And uh, people started saying, can you facilitate this away day? Can you facilitate this strategy process? Can you facilitate this community of practice? And one day I remember changing the signature on my email and thinking, you know, I didn't even know this word existed two years ago, and now apparently I am one. So it was almost kind of. By by accident. I guess it was the main skill I was using as a consultant, and I do think a lot of people who are freelance consultants are using facilitation skills, whether or not they call themselves a facilitator, that is like a really core skillset for them. Olivia Bellas I think a really interesting point you made was that exactly, there's lots of people that are essentially doing this kind of thing already without necessarily knowing it and giving it a name. And actually you mentioned the GLA, which is where we actually met and we're working there. And similarly. Working in social policy, community engagement, doing this work around better conversations and kind of dynamics between groups, but not, not necessarily having a label. Julia Slay And, and I would say not necessarily having as much skill or structure as I would've liked. I certainly, I definitely look back now at some of the engagement events, at some of the workshops, at some of the away days, we were kind of running ourselves and think. If I knew now, then what? I know now, there's a, I mean, I would've done things very differently and I think having these skills when you are working in organizations with teams is so. Powerful. And um, and also at a board level, I mean, I did, I've sat on a couple of different charity boards and NHS as a kind of non-exec director, and I sometimes think about how formal and quite stale those meetings can be and how just some very simple. Facilitation skills that bring a bit of kind of like structure or powerful questions or moments for people to pause and reflect could really transform those spaces. I mean, it is a big, , focus of my work at the moment is trying to. Bring facilitation skills into organizations . Olivia Bellas I love that that aspect of, you know, helping people navigate essentially who, who need that skill, but might not necessarily know it yet. And actually coming onto that, then coming onto those nice techniques and sort of tips, . Let's start going into this idea of workshops and, um, facilitated spaces and how actually we end them well, because I think there's a lot,, that we can talk about in terms of how we start well, and you know, all those different activities that we can get excited about in that core middle section. And then there's that ending part. Which I know I'm guilty of, have maybe not dedicated enough time to, so that's what I'd love us to dive into a bit more now. Yeah. What's, what's kind of bubbling for you at the moment in terms of the power of endings in workshops? Julia Slay  Hmm. Well, you are right. I mean, I have become kind of mildly obsessed with this topic and have, uh, looked, you know, looked and reflected on a lot of my own endings of workshops and trainings and events. And I'm also a regular participant. I mean, one of the ways I try and. Keep my practice fresh is by being a participant in lots of other spaces where I can be facilitated by different people. So I've started, I've got a lot of kind of creativity and inspiration from some of those people as well. And I guess the reason I became so fixated on it is because I have had some really bad experiences of endings and they weren't catastrophic, but they were probably quite. Common. So, uh, let's go through Yes. Some of those, yeah, I think we identify so well. I would say that they're, they're probably things that every, I don't, I know that on, on a bad day, my workshops would run like this as well. You run late, so not. You don't actually run late, but the session que, you know, it goes on and on and squeezes your kind of ending checkout time quite tightly. Mm-hmm. So you might find yourself just with kind of three minutes to go to try and do a bunch of stuff. So I think it can feel well, I think. A bad ending for me feels quite rushed and, , not spacious, which is how I like my work to feel for people I guess relaxed in some ways. If you have an ending that isn't closed, well, it can feel like you're kind of untethered. Like we didn't close everything that we opened. Um, there isn't time to process and reflect collectively. There might be individuals might well walk away and be reflecting there themselves, but there hasn't been a kind of collective moment, which is quite important in the way I facilitate. And I'm really influenced by some of the neuroscience behind this, and in particular something called the peak end rule, which shows us that what people remember from events is the highs and the ends. And it is, it is. That, which I think has really got me thinking about how do I make sure that the endings are really powerful. So I, I am kind of. Struck by if, if part of the intention of your work is to create an impact and I think the work that I do, which is often around a kind of more structured workshops and events, then the ending does really matter. And there, I think there are several things that you can do to create a really powerful lending. And it kind of depends partly on what you're doing. The thing I all, I'm now trying much more to avoid is that kind of very rushed, three minutes at the end on Zoom, where in a panic I might say, okay, one word in the chat or one emoji and how you're feeling leaving this session. Olivia Bellas And then it's just kind of over and which has its place, right. The checkout, those checkout words are lovely, but like you say, it's about, is it about ring? How do you ringfence that time, you know? Yeah. . And how much time would you give it? I, I guess depending on,, the session. Julia Slay Um, yeah, that's a good question actually. I mean, it does, I think, well, how do you ringfence it? One of the things I've started to do, two things I've started to do, I have found quite helpful. One, is to just be much more generous in my planning around how long to leave for the, for the ending. So in a one hour session, for example, online, I might angel leave 15 minutes and, and if I, if I ended up with 10, I'd be happy. The other thing I've seen people do and I quite like doing now, is using buffer time. So in a workshop plan, deliberately planning in buffer time for either q and a extra breaks if people need them, a session to go on a bit longer or a bit more to at the end. And I don't think I've ever been left. Too much time at the end. So my assumption is always, if there's time it can be usefully spent, right? Like it's like a helpful thing. And if you can finish five minutes early, actually they're gonna be love you. Yeah. They're gonna love you. It's like having a snow day at school or something. People are like skipping out. Think I've got five minutes to make a cup of tea or hang up my laundry. Um, so. Yeah, I think I, I am more and more conscious about trying not to rush things or to do, I mean, one of the many activities I would do as part of a kind of ending section would be a checkout, and I think with the kind of one word in the chat, or share your reflection in the chat, it can be very effective if you don't have time to go around and hear people, but actually they don't have time to read it. So often what I find is people are sharing these brilliant insights and we, as the facilitators are left. With them and we can read through them and go, oh, that's lovely. That's really interesting. But they're often just pinging it in and then heading out of the room. So it feels like for me, part of the intention of a checkout is that it's collective sense making and a moment of collective connection. And if I'm doing like add something in the chat, they're not getting the benefit of that necessarily, unless they're being really diligent and staying and reading through everything. Olivia Bellas So there's a, there's a connection part,, a social part I guess, remembering who's there, how we sort of started this very kind of human aspect. I'm just thinking about. Um, the value of what meaning has been made, you know, kind of a learning transfer aspect I suppose that might more sit with training or is there a differentiation? Julia Slay Well, yeah, , I do think, I feel quite strongly, and I know other facilitators will have different views on this. I think, I feel that there is always collective learning. From almost any kind of session. And I don't, I don't think that's limited to training. I think that often we learn through hearing other people articulate things that are different to us or that validate something else, or sometimes it's naming something we hadn't that, you know, we hadn't even found the words for yet. So there is, I think. In every, we are using the word session quite loosely here, but it could be a meeting, it could be a team away day, it could be, um, a planning session could be almost anything really. But the chance to talk about both, like the process and the content feels like an opportunity to deepen learning and to. Yeah, I, I think to, to have a more kind of reflective space that mm-hmm. Is, is about learning, is about connection is about, I think about this sometimes with my quality improvement hat on, where I used to coach teams in the NHS kind of an hour a week in a GP practice, and we would always do a review at the end of the one hour meeting, which was just a very quick in five minutes. What went well about the meeting and even better if, and everyone would share their, what went well and even better if, and through that we were making these micro adjustments to how we worked as a team. And how those sessions were useful for the team. So it didn't have to be a big whole scale three month review, although you could do that. It was this kind of like slight tweaking, recalibrating, and a chance, uh, to just make things a bit a bit better. So I think I sometimes do think about it as both the process and the content. So, um, a checkout and a, and a process of reflecting can be, , both about. What did I learn today? What insights am I taking away? What reflections am I taking away? And how did I feel this session went? What might we do differently next time? And I think there is often, for me, because I'm a coach and I know you are too, I quite like to combine reflection with action.. So that there's a reflective component and then there's a kind of, what action am I taking away, or what's my next step? I also think there's a bunch of other logistical stuff that you do in an ending that's quite important. So there's stuff around kind of what's happening next, like where is, you know, what is the kind of next stage of this, if at all? , There's kind of sharing materials. Often I think we forget that participants we are with this is, I'm more in the space of if you're facilitating groups who aren't already in a team or organization. They often are like, we wanna be connected and we forget that. We need to give them the space to have that conversation and figure out what they wanna do, where they wanna take their, their connections, if at all. , You might be running an evaluation. So often when we rush out endings, the evaluation or the feedback is the first thing that gets cut. Olivia Bellas  I'd say probably some of the fluff ups I've had in terms of not ending as I would've liked to, are around this kind of feedback bit, , like it feels clunky to me. It feels like we've just sort of shifted from me and us to you, or you know, suddenly there's this kind of weird moment of like, oh, right now we are looking at the session, and what was the workshop actually? Julia Slay  Yes. Yeah. And I think that's, and I think sometimes doing feedback or evaluations can feel quite well, it's like an admin task. It's an admin, yeah. Everybody gets their phone out and they scan the QR code, or they get the piece of paper and the pen and it's a bit quiet and it does shift the energy and the mood. People might have been in this lovely, you know, reflections and connection space, and then suddenly you're like, and here's the feedback form. And I do think it's really important to do it in the session because your data quality is so much better. , It's interesting which way round would I do it? I do a little bit of the kind of process evaluation, so what went well? And I usually do that before the final checkout. I might, for example, if we've had a bit of a group agreement at the beginning, might revisit that and say a bit of kind of like, how did we do against this? Which bits do you think we really stuck to? Which bits might we have slipped a bit on? What might you change for next time? So I probably would try and do that before I then did. And what's your final checkout? So I try to leave a checkout for the very, very end, and then I might just do one final. Grounding activity, and this is where people have such different skill sets. You know, I ran a training on, I ran this first day of a trauma informed training that I'm doing with a group of psychotherapists. We ran it this week and they did a final grounding activity that was very somatic, very physical. It was a kind of body scan. That's not the kind of thing I ever really do because it's, it's not really part of my practice. But I do sometimes you might cringe at this, I do sometimes read out like a poem or I might do something more physical, like a game. Like there's a lovely game, like a hand sink clap game. Oh yes. Which is a really lovely way to like build energy and just bring a bit of like movement back in at the end. Uh, but again, you need time for these things. So you'll often be thinking someone, actually again, the theater person who was in this training I ran in November, she ran a fantastic activity at the end of one of the days, which was building a sound machine of facilitation. So it was like, oh, it was so cool, and it was like, for a minute I was like. The, is the group gonna go for this? Because she was inviting people up to kind of make a motion and a noise, and there was about five seconds where I was like, Ooh, where's this gonna go? And then someone jumped in and then they all piled in and it, yeah, the energy just went from like 50 to a hundred in the space of 60 seconds, and that was all it took really. Olivia Bellas Amazing that, this, brilliant, sound activity and the poem that you mentioned. Yeah. You know, we might put these at the start, right? Like they actually feel, like things that might be more familiar there when actually putting them at the end, or even thinking about topping and tailing, is there value in connecting that beginning and that end? Julia Slay Well, it's interesting you say that because I, I mean, I said I've become mildly obsessed with this. One of the many things I've become a bit obsessed with is the concept of circularity and or what in improv and comedy they call reintegration. So where you bring something back from the beginning at the end. Right. And I love this concept. I came across it, I did some training, last month in Berlin with chaos pilots around experience design, and they introduced this concept of circularity so that you do something at the beginning of an activity, at beginning of a workshop or an event, and then you bring it back at the end. So in the training, they had this kind of little yellow. Airplane that you wrote an intention on and something just cut kind of a couple of prompts and then at the end we came back to that. So it's just a very, it's a very simple way of doing. It doesn't have to be, uh, elaborate. On um, Tuesday when, when we ran this trauma informed training, uh, one of the facilitator, one of the trainer team got people to write down anything. They just wanted to park things that they just wanted to leave outside the space. And she gave them envelopes and paper and they put what they wanted to park in the envelope and they gave the envelope to her. And at the end of the day, she gave it all back and it was this lovely moment of like. Actually, and, and I really have done that activity before and really experienced it as a participant, as like it mentally just shut off some of the noise. It was really powerful. Olivia Bellas Oh, I love that. So you literally just put it in an envelopes and it's held by the facilitator during the duration and then it's. Given back and that's it. It's just as simple as that. Julia Slay Yeah. And someone, someone was like, I don't even know if I wanna open. I'm not gonna open it now. You know, which is, you know, fair enough. Yeah. But it's be powerful. It's the physical embodiment of, of things. Right? Like it's one thing. And I do think it's also very powerful to say out loud, uh, I want to park X. Yeah. But there is something I think even more powerful about physically writing it down, putting it aside and saying, I'm gonna come back to that at. Whatever, 5:00 PM today. And it's just, it's there and it's, you know, parked and the, and this kind of concept. I mean, that is, I think all just generally parking stuff and having a way to give people a chance to say, this is on my mind. I need to just go with that is very powerful. But this concept of circularity I really love because I think it does do. Just help you achieve. One of the key things I think I'm looking for when I run workshops or events or training, which is uh, com kind of a completeness, a kind of, and it's not to say things have to be tidy or neat, uh, they, but it's, it's the kind of anchoring effect of bringing something full circle. Olivia Bellas It's quite sort of reassuring, satisfying. Intentional as well, I'm just remembering I did one accidentally but I got that feeling as a facilitator. So I had started the session and, . Had a picture up actually of just my hand, you know, with, with kind of five digits. And it was really just to remind me that I wanted in my intro to say five quick things about me and move on. And then at the end we ended up doing that debrief that I think, you know, where you draw around your hand and each finger is a of reflection prompt. And although that was accidental, there was something that like has that sensation as well for the whole group. Participants and facilitator and I guess I, that just made me think a, another thought there is this sort of worry, fear of like ending, which might be another unraveling, you know, like how can we end well without it possibly going into a another direction. Julia Slay Yes, and I am always aware, I mean, I can. I have heard facilitators talk about that as a fear before, and I think sometimes there are, there are certain phrases or words that I would probably avoid bringing in right at the end. Like, is there anything else you wanna talk about? But I think there is something interesting because when you run the kind of process review reflection stuff, or you do a checkout that's more learning orientated, I think implicitly in the way we structure it, there's a boundary around it. So even if someone says something quite revealing or challenging in terms of process feedback, like, oh, I actually didn't think we did that very well, or, I'm feeling a bit frustrated by the way this happened. , It's like the group understands we're not necessarily going into that now. This is like insight and information, but we are not necessarily open up. So I think that there, if it's phrased and framed in the right way, it's naturally quite contained, even if stuff comes up and you think, well, that could be like a two hour conversation. Whereas, yeah, I definitely have been guilty in the past and try not to do now. Saying to the group, and it almost sometimes can slip out. You know, you, you've done your checkout and then you kind of go, oh, is there anything else? And you're like, no, no, don't do that. I think with teams who are connected to each other, uh, that can come up a little bit more. So someone will be maybe right at the end after they've done a checkout, oh, but we didn't talk about this. Or should we talk about that? And because they know they're gonna see each other again or later It can just feel slightly different. , There's also something I think about acknowledging that. When we close a session, right, and we kind of end the session, but people will still be processing and reflecting sometimes for hours, days, and weeks afterwards. So their ending might not be for two weeks time. Um, and I'm curious, I've seen some facilitators try to. Accommodate that by extending the ending and sometimes kind of sending an email a week or two afterwards saying, uh, would love to hear where your reflections landed on this. And it's almost like part accountability coach, part acknowledgement that they might have still processed quite a lot of insight post session. , Or something I've started doing in the training I run because I had an experience of it that was really positive is, you know, you do a three day training and then. Two months later, or maybe six weeks later, have just like 45 minutes online to come back together and just do a bit of a kind of recap and review. So acknowledging that there's lots of things that bubble up and learning and processing doesn't end when we shut the Zoom. And how can we think about our ending as a more extended version of that? Yeah, absolutely. The ending isn't necessarily just in that time that you've all spent together. Olivia Bellas It can carry on and if you have scope to reconnect, brilliant. , That's not always the case. , Of course, and like you had said,, that next steps piece, , it will feel like it might, need to be heavily discussed with the client and where are they coming into it, , and that kind of ending, , might need to be sort of shared a little bit with, with, with others as well. So I, I've actually got, a question and then I'm gonna ask you for one, so Uma and Sam, who were the other hosts, and I had a chat recently and we were saying, . Wouldn't it be nice to, , get some of our brilliant guests to share a question they'd like to pass on to the next guest? So I'm gonna do that and ask you that, but first I've got a question that we wanted for you. So we're gonna start, and it's actually really connected to what we're talking about right now. , So the question we were thinking about was, , what meaning. Has been made for you, if any, as a result of the conversation we've just had now? Julia Slay Interesting. Yeah, I think I, there is something I, um, mulling over about the very practical timing aspect and. How, how long is the right amount of time to spend on an ending? And that's like just hit home for me a little bit about, , how long would it take to do something really meaningful? Could you do it in three minutes actually I dunno if it's quite the word meaning, but yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can talk about the value of closing well, how we do it, but like you say, being really clear actually about it, having that dedicated time Olivia Bellas Okay. So what question would you like to ask our next guest who, we don't know who it is yet, so it's a kind of, it's a surprise for everyone. Is there something. Julia Slay I, I would love to know how their practice as a facilitator has changed as they have gone along their facilitation journey. So how has their practice evolved and changed? Olivia Bellas  Love that. You know, I mean, it's almost a question I'd love to ask every facilitator I meet because I, I can see in myself the way it's totally changed over the years. Yeah. And I am very curious about that journey for others too. . And how it could, um, be fast sometimes and slow other times, you know, that sort of rate of change is just,, different every time. Julia Slay Yeah. And how we unlearn things. I mean, I think there is some assumptions maybe that I had at the beginning of my facilitation. Career inverted comm when I first started, which I would, which have certainly changed and things I used to do that I thought were really important that now I, I hold much more lightly. Olivia Bellas So, yeah, I'm very curious to, to listen to the episode and see what they say, what gorgeous that is. A lovely point of circularity actually. They're bringing in something from before. I think that's a lovely activity to do. Oh, well thank you so much for that question and the conversation today. Thank you. I know that's helpful for a lot of people. Julia Slay Thank you. That was really lovely conversation. Olivia Bellas Thanks for listening to Facilitation Stories - brought to you by IAF England and Wales. We like to collect stories, so get in touch if you have an idea - contact info is at facilitationstories.com There, you can Subscribe, follow, like the show so you get notified of new episodes. This has been Facilitation Stories   

In today's episode, the Facilitation Stories podcast returns with a brand-new hosting team — Olivia, Sam, and Umah — who share their stories, inspirations, and hopes for the next chapter of the podcast. They talk about: Why they joined the Facilitation Stories team and what excites them about podcasting as a way to connect facilitators and share learning. How their diverse backgrounds — from healthcare and construction to creative arts, community engagement and youth work — have shaped their facilitation practice. The power of collaboration and curiosity in creating spaces for reflection, learning, and human connection and what underpins their hopes for this podcast series And, of course, an important conversation about pets, TV guilty pleasures, and favourite biscuits! 🍪 "It's about creating space where people can make sense of their own stories — and find belonging in shared spaces." "Sometimes, facilitation is about slowing down, thinking, and making time for the conversations we don't usually have."     Links Today's guests are the hosts themselves: Olivia Bellas https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliviabellas/ Sam Moon https://www.linkedin.com/in/theboymoon123/ Umah Ganeshalingam https://www.linkedin.com/in/umah/ To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter: 🎧 Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ 📧 Email us: [email protected] 🌐 IAF England & Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales     Transcript Helene Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell and for the last time I am introducing the podcast because I'm going to be passing the baton onto this wonderful new team. We have Sam Moon, Olivia Bellas, and Umah Ganeshalingam. In this episode, you're going to hear Sam, Umah and Olivia talk about their hopes for the Facilitation Stories podcast, some of the work they all do, the kinds of things they're interested in hearing about, and the conversations they're hoping to have. And it just leaves me to say thanks to everybody that I've worked with on this podcast. Pilar Orti, who started the whole thing, Nikki Wilson, we worked together for ages and it has been absolutely fantastic working with both of them and to Rena Kosh as well, who does all the graphics and stuff that go out alongside the podcast and pretty much everybody else that's been listening, all the guests we've had over the last few years, it's been fantastic. Umah Thank you, Helen, and thank you to you and the team for everything that you've done today and handing it over so nicely to us. Helene Good luck to you all. Sam We'll be standing on the shoulders of giants. Thank you Helen. So I'll kick off with the question. What brings you here, Olivia, to the new crew,  why was it important for you to be here? Olivia Podcasting as a format really works for me, so it's definitely a medium that I enjoy for work, for fun. The idea of being part of a crew, a team, building a podcast is really, really exciting to be a bit more behind the scenes. I remember I was at the IAF conference in April in Birmingham earlier this year and seeing this call out to see who's interested. And that was one reason. And then the other reason was actually I tend to collaborate a lot. This year, I haven't been really up until that point and was like, oh, what's missing? And it was that feeling that I was actually, as a facilitator, doing lots of solo work, which I think has value sometimes, but I was really missing more closer collaboration with others. Yeah. What about you, Sam? Sam I think it's curiosity, which is often very much my kind of North Star towards things and serendipity and an interest in being with others, exploring and discussing what I enjoy and the room and the space to do that with others, and also an excitement and interest in talking about, talking with and sharing conversation with other people who are in the facilitation world. And I think just the opportunity to play with those ideas and experience other people's experiences. Learn a little bit about this realm of podcasting, which I'm not massively familiar with myself. I'm here with openness to the curiosity of what is possible. Really. So Umah,  come to you. What brings you here, and why was it important for you to be involved in the IAF podcast as a as a new crew member? Umah Mine all started with a conversation with Paul, where I had joined as a IAF member and as part of the intro, he spoke to me about the IAF, the podcast and said, oh, if I'm keen, I could be involved in it. And almost the day I joined as a member, I say, yeah, I'll happily get involved with the podcast too. And then it was about finding other people to do it with us, and he mentioned it at the conference, which unfortunately I couldn't attend, but I'm hoping to attend this one. Coming up, in terms of my why at work, it's quite delivery. Whereas this for me is a place where I could slow down a bit, have the space and time to have conversations, think about why we're doing things. Is our approach the right approach? How do other people do things and do a bit more of that philosophizing really, that we don't always get to do? But the thing is, by exploring this with both of you, with our guests in the future, and also the audience who's listening in, it's just really good to get different viewpoints and build that community. I think that's quite key for me. Olivia I think it's really interesting around sometimes we well, we often get caught up in the doing and the delivery side of things, and it is about looking at what is it we do. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But yeah. What's my follow up question. Is there a kind of area of facilitation that you're particularly interested in, or is it more about sort of your discovering, you know, through your practice. Umah I've had quite a few different career changes. So I started off as a clinician and I was seeing pediatrics and adults with hearing and balance difficulties. And how you communicate is key in terms of the impact on their the diagnosis, the management of it. And it's how can we make them feel comfortable, give them that space to explore and ask the questions. So it's facilitating them through this process, right. So I initially started with patient experience journeys that kind of facilitation. How can we make the process better. And then afterwards I had a career change, went into construction and it became more about customer experience or passenger experience when I did airports. It's interesting that you asked me that, Olivia. So before it was the journey, whereas now it's the community, the group. What's the common? People have different needs and different things to attain. At the moment, lots of people are off in different directions. What is the commonality? It's changed that way for me. How about for you? What's your area of practice right now? Olivia And that's a good point right now adding that bit. I think it does change quite a lot. I've also dipped my toe into quite a few different working worlds. I've come from creative sector, arts culture, worked with artists a lot, and I've brought that into government spaces, charity spaces, public dialogue and also thinking about making teamwork more enjoyable, easier. But I bring a lot of play. So a lot of that kind of creativity, which is naturally how my brain works. But how do we use that as a way into the workplace? I mean, there's a lot of science and evidence that backs up that using playful approaches Really helps us in terms of fresh thinking. So I'd say at the moment I do use a lot of serious play in my work. I do use a lot of other kind of practices like walk and talks, visualization. So that side of things is where I'm focused right now. Umah Yeah. Sam, we've spoken a lot about, for example, our why. What is it that you're hoping that us together on the podcast is going to do? Sam That's a good question. My kind of world of work has been twenty five years or so in youth and community, sort of focused. So a lot of my facilitation is kind of through that, through that lens. And I'm earning the last year or so have gone full time freelance by myself. So I've been on a journey of figuring out what it is that I do in that new world. So I'm very much on that story of kind of discovery, but finding myself working a lot in the sort of community Subcommittee film co-production, lived experience, but also being drawn and developing work around kind of impact through means called ripple effect mapping. I'm very much pulled into different things and then began to get get interested in what makes me smile and what creates the energy. So I'm still very much in this discovery stage, but it's also interesting as a kind of work through things is having to remember to be me and follow the things that I like to do and create and facilitate in the way that I wish to facilitate and follow my own path. It's very easy to kind of be looking at all the amazing things that other people are doing and going, oh, that looks great, I should be doing that. And you forget to actually do the things that you do well. Focus on those on those things. And when I remember that and lean back into the things that are me and that I do, the world opens up and I find myself in spaces doing really exciting things and creative pieces of work, which then lead into to other things like this in terms of the opportunities the podcast brings and what we'd like to explore. I'm really interested in speaking to a whole range of different types of facilitation, and really looking at ways in which people can talk about what they're passionate about and what's important to them. But I'm also interested, because of my own passions in facilitation within the community world and other sort of sectors, like that kind of creating space where we're all able to talk about facilitation without competing with another facilitation style or another kind of way of doing things, because I think, well, I'll kind of start off, I might become precious about a certain way of doing things, and then I'll learn another way of doing things and think, well, actually, this really complements this way of doing things. And then you begin to see the gaps in everything that you do. I'm looking forward to creating a space where we can see how things complement one another, and that the enjoyment and what we get from it is shared with each other. Olivia I agree so much with what you said, like, it's really exciting to hear because I think with facilitation, as we know, it's quite unusual, mostly how people have ended up doing this type of work. I hear the kind of stories of like a, you know, just as we've shared now, really quite different. And so those roots there are fascinating, and they reveal a lot and give you permission to do the things that you just said, Sam. Well, I'll try it like this, but then I can layer it with this and I can look at something else. Yeah. Facilitation exists in so many different ways, and that's what I'm excited about diving into and getting those stories in the least expected places. And with the people that maybe we hear less from. I suppose in facilitation is doing big work, but maybe quiet work as well. So yeah, would definitely love to hear from people who probably don't even call themselves facilitators, but maybe identify with some of the things already said. Sam Umah, what comes to mind for you of what you'd like to experience and might be possible for the podcast? Umah I'm quite interested to look at the breadth and depth of the different things that we have available to us, what's worked, and understanding what are the true challenges that we face. We do lessons learned, and it's quite nice to get a chance to ask detailed questions of right. So when that was a challenge, what did you do? And then delve into that. And through that conversation you unlock her. Well, maybe we could maybe we could try this. It becomes it evolves doesn't it? So it becomes a new way of doing things. Let me reiterate my process. I've done this workshop many times. Never once has my workshop ever gone the same way. Different people, different outcomes, different ways of doing things. Even the three of us together, we haven't covered everything. So that's why we bring guests in hearing from audiences. What is their reveal? Something that I've not thought of yet. Sam To go a little bit deeper with a follow up question on that is what is it about your world of facilitation? What is it that makes you smile about it? What is it that gives you a spring in your step about facilitation? Umah One thing personally for me is the variety I get to learn about new sectors when I'm facilitating. I could be sector agnostic and really get something valuable for them when I'm in the session, it helps piece the world together for me. I like the variety, I like learning. We're all lifelong learners. I really like that. And exploring what there is. It's seeing when someone is hesitant to say, should I put this idea forward? And you can see that they're a little bit uncomfortable. So we facilitate as facilitators, and they build the confidence and courage to put their idea forward. And then I see them see their team members contribute and grow that idea. Afterwards, they might take it away. They might develop it. You know, we're bigger than the sum of our parts type thing. So for me, that's really what makes me smile. Sam How about you, Olivia? What gives you a spring in your step about facilitating or your world of facilitation? Olivia So two things jump to mind. So firstly, I guess it's that sort of very unknown space that I'm realize I'm quite drawn to. So a lot of the facilitation work that I have done, when it's kind of in the community engagement space, it's very unpredictable. It can feel kind of complicated and complex and messy sometimes, but it's work that I really enjoy because I enjoy that kind of sense making part of it. And it's it's weird because it's definitely a kind of uncomfortable maybe space, but I really love navigating it, whether it's in the moment delivering or before that. When you're designing and you're like, what? How is this even gonna work out? And then it somehow the pieces come together. I guess it's also like you were saying as well, how that unknownness is experienced and transformed with the others, with the group then, because we all get that sense, don't we? I also just love the fact of what makes me really, really smile is that I can just go for it and really try things out. A lot of the time with safety, of course, within the group, but sometimes I've come away and kind of go, wow, I'm really glad that we tried this particular route with the group today, and it felt right to do it then. Pushing those boundaries of exploration, of creativity just really suits me as a facilitator as well. Just sharing like we are right now, because I think sometimes if we're honest, this kind of work can feel a little bit lonely. And I think just being really honest when there are fluff ups as well, it's just like it's not all brilliant. Like there's things that are like, uh oh, that was really weird or uh oh, gotta do that again in a different way, you know? And so I'd love to hear more of that as well in this podcast. What went well but what hasn't. And actually, like, can we just share that because we're all going through it. So I think that will bring smiles to probably many people's faces. Yeah. Sam. Sam So what makes me smile, I think, is that I enjoy the freedom, particularly coming from full time employment and then deciding to move into freelance and self-employment and all the uncertainty that comes with that. So I think there's an aspect of that in terms of not knowing what I'm going to be doing is quite exciting as discovering what I am going to be doing. As I'm figuring that out and things come in. I do a lot of work with stories and lived experience and also story creation. And the ripple effect mapping work that I do is very much held within stories and appreciative inquiry, and the nature of that creates a lot of energy and a lot of connection, creating spaces that nurture relationship and spaces in which people are in relationship with one another is often a joy to experience and be part of. And what also makes me smile is creating space where people can make sense of their own stories by telling their stories, creating space where people can hear other people's stories or hear other people speak from where they're at to make sense of how they are feeling and make sense of what's going on for them. It's just always a privilege to be in a space that the impact of that and the power of that gives people their own agency in their own sort of citizenship. Kind of in that space as well. So I really, really enjoy that. And also I might do work, which is more around what might be termed as hosting, and that's about creating space for the collective wisdom to emerge from the room. And that's what shapes the decisions. I like creating spaces where I might not know what's going to happen and how it's going to happen, and being able to create space to work and fail, but be human in those spaces as well and be open going, okay, this isn't quite working, is it? And be able to name that within those spaces. So shared learning experience as well, that ongoing learning experience for me and listening to the tone of the group rather than listening to myself. It's really lovely being in those sorts of spaces. Olivia I've heard it a little bit, but this hosting difference, and if you could expand a little bit on that, like what? What would you say is, is there a host and a facilitator might be different things or do they overlap? Sam We can talk about what it means to me, and I'm and I'm conscious that we can get into some semantics here where where I start to define what facilitation is is, isn't. When I'm using the word hosting. For me, it's around where facilitating space for the collective wisdom of the group or the people you're with, and the energy naturally arises to be able to shape what might emerge, rather than what might be a more linear, focused thing. That sort of hosting approach, maybe within appreciative inquiry, relational relational practice. So it could be as simple as why was it important for you to be here? Or what is the crossroads you're at at this moment in time? And we speak to those questions and then take that back into the room and what is shared and what struck people then might shape the next question. And so it's a form of practice, but it's that gray space. And I caveat that with everyone will possibly have their own version of what that means for them. Olivia That's so helpful. Thank you. I could feel myself going down a rabbit hole. I don't know if we want to jump into something a bit silly. Sam But we did have a few personal trivia questions, the first of which was what do we do for fun? Umah I have a puppy. He's a Saluki from Abu Dhabi, and for me he is the definition of fun and any time spent with him, I really value it. I quite like gaming, strategic games, board games and going for walks, which he definitely enjoys too. How about you? Sam So I'm also quite. You made me smile. And we could we could quite actually easily just take over the rest of the podcast with this, with this now which is a danger. But I was going to say what I do for fun is board gaming. So for anybody who's listening to this podcast who's not a gamer, I'm not talking about monopoly. For those who may be uninitiated, early entry games might be things like Ticket to Ride or Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan. I meet up with a bunch of friends locally, and we just really enjoy playing board games together, and occasionally we'll book an Airbnb and play games for an entire weekend and enjoy that. So that's what I do for fun. Go to the gym quite a lot now, and that might not be fun for most people, but it helps. I find it really good head clearer for me just to kind of hit the gym every now and then and go for a run. Olivia, what do you do for fun? Olivia Oh my goodness. Well, just listening to you both my cat whilst we're on the pet vibe. Ziggy she is very cool. She's fun for all the family. The other thing that came to my mind though, I don't feel like I do it loads and loads. It's just moving around and traveling actually. So whether that's within my kind of closest sphere or beyond. As my kids are getting a bit bigger, I'm sort of noticing, oh, I can actually venture out a bit more for fun. It's quite funny. It's around trash TV, so I'm gonna dive into it. I don't really watch TV as a as a general rule, but our household has just got into traitors. I felt quite uncomfortable about watching people be essentially quite like, duping each other and being quite mean to each other. Right? Because, you know, they've got to play the game. So this is kind of like a game where you're tricking people or trying to. Umah There is a game, there's a game called Mafia, which is this . Olivia So so you're watching these people like lying to each other. I found series one a really hard watch. Didn't bother with series two or three because I just thought I'm not going there. And then series four is on and it's the celebrity one. And as I'm watching it this time, I've got really into like all the biases, actually that are popping up. People are just making really weird decisions based on what, you know, because no one's actually got really any evidence. And so then it's brought up this kind of now it's more like an anthropological. Umah Yeah, exactly. It's societal. Olivia Exactly. Why are they saying that? It must be this guy? Because he's the smartest guy. What have you based that on? It's starting to come up. There's a few articles that people are going. Why isn't the media actually talking about a lot of the stuff that's happening, like first impression bias? You know, there's the kind of groupthink that happens. And, you know, you can start to relate this all to the work that we do. Umah Exactly how it comes through in the workplace. Olivia Absolutely. And so, you know, there's you can go really, really deep and into analyzing traitors, the TV show and seeing the parallels just with real life. And that actually you just look at these people and you think there are aspects that we enact as well. Just wanted to mention that as a kind of, you know, yes, it's a reality TV, but it's it's fascinating. Have a read of what's online around this kind of bias, because it's actually it's actually a little bit worrying that this is all sort of happening live on UK TV, and not a lot of people are talking about it yet. Umah Because it's a microscope, isn't it, into behaviors and you look into it and then some of them might be quite not reflective, but you see an exaggerated version of it. Olivia Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Do either of you have trashy TVs? Umah I don't, I watch K-drama, but not trash TV. Sam Sorry. What's a K-drama? Umah Korean TV series. They're amazing. Sam Oh, right. I'm not familiar with that. My trash TV habit is I'm now a sucker for Deadliest Catch on Dmax, which is the reality TV. There's twenty two seasons of them, and it's about the folks who go crab fishing on the Bering Sea, and it follows a handful of boats that go out and catch crab. It's on for like two hours every morning, and I watch thirty minutes of it whilst I have my breakfast. And bit by bit, I've just started to get to know the different characters. What I find fascinating in terms of observation of people is mainly men who are on the boat, dominantly men. I'd say ninety nine percent men, but just in terms of kind of how men are with one another in that environment, toxic masculinity and fear. And in each episode, you'd see the nuances in terms of how they evolve as people. I find myself tied to that little routine each morning as I start to find out about these fishermen, you go out and catch crab. Umah I'll watch a clip after this. Recommend me a good episode to watch. Sam I couldn't do that at first. I really didn't like it because I was put off by the toxic masculinity of it. Shall we finish with the most important question of humanity, as far as I'm concerned, is what's your favourite biscuit or snack if you don't do biscuits. I've introduced mine, but also say how I use this in facilitation myself. So my favourite go to biscuit would be a hobnob. Probably a chocolate hobnob. I also use this as an icebreaker exercise by inviting people to go around the room, shake hands, introduce themselves and say, what's your favourite biscuit? And I'm always struck in when I do this thinking, oh, this is going to be a little bit trite, a bit superficial, but what happens is everybody starts telling biscuit stories. And so the reminiscence that comes out from this activity is quite something. So with that, Olivia, what's your favourite biscuit? Olivia Um, you know, just basically every biscuit on the planet. I like biscuits a lot, so I like auburn custard cream, jammy dodger. Like it's just. Yeah, I couldn't pin it down. But interestingly, as a warm up, I've experienced it. Rather I've been a participant and it was about sandwiches. And we also had to draw parallels to the sandwich that we've chosen in terms of describing our mood as well. And again, I find these ones that, you know, I still can't work out where I am with like warmers or icebreakers or whatever you call them, because there are some that don't work very well and some that work better. But I do find that anything that's like this, that's quite comforting. Sometimes it's just, you know, what was the last thing that made you smile? And that's usually going to be a positive start. The simpler the better, I think. But I'd love to come back to this because I know many people are very like, I am not doing an icebreaker. Umah Yea, different preference, isn't it? Olivia Yeah. What about you, Umah? Umah Well, favourite biscuit again, Sam. It was really good that you mentioned that people start reminiscing because straight away one came into my mind and that was the malt biscuit, the one with the cow on and when I was a kid, whenever I was poorly, my mum would give me two of those. It was a bit of a comfort, like a blanket around me, and it felt so nice. I like that icebreaker. So, Olivia, what's the headline of what listeners can look forward to? Olivia Circling back to the start of our conversation, we're interested in stories where we discover a bit more about how facilitators got to where they are. No one studied facilitation at school, did they? Like in a very formal way or pain like this pathway that's set. So understanding that and hearing more about all the different types of facilitation, that's what we can definitely look forward to that we're all committed to drawing out in the future conversations we have. Umah Sam. Sam Absolutely. People can look forward to a variety of stories, a variety of guests, and I think we're already shaping it is quite a human space creates a feeling of belonging and connection. It'd be great if we can create a sense that we're in the room with the listeners, and the listeners are in the room with us. Umah Yeah, I think that's beautiful. For me, I would just build on that, really, and say shared enjoyment, the nerding out on different methodologies like you've already touched on hosting and facilitation, the difference just really getting into some of the semantics actually, and exploring some of that. I think you said it beautifully there, Sam, as well. So thank you. And I feel that's a really nice place for us to end our first episode together as your new host. Umah Thank you for listening to Facilitation Stories, brought to you by Umah IAF, England and Wales. Umah Subscribe, follow and like so you can get notified of new episodes. If you have a story or an idea you'd love us to explore, you can reach us at Facilitation Stories. Umah This has been Facilitation Stories.

In today's episode Helene speaks to Farah Egby and Cigdem Saka-Jackson about Agile.   They talk about: Agile as a set of working practices that prioritises people over processes and tools; Farah and Cigdem's previous work and journeys into Agile facilitation; The roles and functions that the "Scrum Master" and "Kanban" play in Agile; Roles and techniques in Agile facilitation and tips on how to do it; "I think you need to care. You have to be a caring person. I definitely don't believe it is, it is a rule book and just a set of applicable guidelines. You have to care about the people you work with and the team you're working with". How Agile can be applied in different contexts including personally. "There are things that you can also apply to your own life individually, you can stop and have a moment to reflect, even if you don't do it with a formal process". Links Today's guests:  Farah Egby:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/farah-egby/  [email protected] Cigdem Saka-Jackson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%C3%A7i%C4%9Fdem-saka-jackson-7885a111/ [email protected] To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

In this episode Helene talks to Andrew Spiteri, Regional Director of the IAF Europe and Middle East Region. Andrew tells Helene about himself as a facilitator, the kind of work he does and his background with IAF. He became regional director at the start of the year and shares a bit about the work he has been involved in so far, his roles and responsibilities as director, and what he would like to see in future for the region and beyond. He tells us about the regional conference in Romania in November 2025 and about what he most loves about facilitation. You can contact Andrew at: [email protected] And Helene at [email protected] To contact the podcast team: [email protected] Transcript   H.J Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcasts brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell, and this episode is one of our quarterly chapter chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. My guest today is Andrew Spiteri, IAF endorsed facilitator, consultant and elected Regional Director for the Europe and Middle East, EME region of the IAF for 2025-26. Andrew accompanies diverse groups, associations, entities, NGOs and also faith based organizations, and also often works in international settings, helping groups in collaboratively formulating vision, strategy and action planning activities. Andrew comes from Malta, is a resident in Brussels, and is in Italy for long stretches during the year. Welcome Andrew.   A.S Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.    H.J Every time I speak to you, you're globe trotting somewhere.   A.S That's right. Yeah, that's right.    H.J So tell us a little bit about you as a facilitator, and the kind of work that you do?   A.S That's, it's always difficult because to start, because it's, it's so fascinating facilitation. And I think I was doing facilitation for many years without actually knowing it was facilitation. So I love to help groups work together, and what I really love is to give space to each and every person, because to manage to help that everyone contributes. Because I really believe everyone, even those who are apparently not well prepared, well suited or appear to be like a lot of the time. But I think everyone has a gift to gift and facing that challenge of helping take away all what, what blocks this, this, this participation, and creating climate where people can collaborate is really something I love, and so that's what I try to do in my facilitation. I work a lot with groups, associations, sometimes even with companies, but I would prefer normally NGOs or even associations, which could be very small or very big, international, with all the challenges of culture differences and cultural differences and even age differences. So, yeah, that's a bit what I'd like to do, and what I do usually.   H.J Brilliant. And I think that thing about doing facilitation, before you know, it's called facilitation, is definitely a common theme, certainly, I think, back on all the podcasts we've recorded, and I think that's one thing that comes out in nearly all of them, fascinating. Okay, and so very international. What language do you facilitate in? Mostly, is it English?    A.S   Yeah, basically it's English. Not only, I know English, Italian, Maltese, evidently. So sometimes I do it in Italian. It depends on the group. I've just come from, Vienna. I had five sessions, very intense, and basically they were all in English. I had simultaneous translation in German. Most Viennese understand very well, and even speak English quite well. So it depends on the context, on the place, on the client, let's say, on how you organize. Yeah.    H.J   Wow. Sounds like you have a very diverse practice, which must be completely fascinating.   A.S   I remember once I was, like, two years ago, I was in Poland, and so this organization, sort of, they were, they knew a lot of Italian more than English. So I had two headphones, sort of from one headphone I would speak, a headphone with a microphone, and I would speak in English, sorry, in Italian. And they would they would hear me and translate in Polish. And from the other headphone, I would hear what the other people were saying in Polish translated into Italian. So it was like good, yeah.   H.J  Wow, that's the ultimate in a simultaneous translation. Blimey. Okay, so I should add multi-talented linguist to your list of skills, by the sounds of things. So I'd like to know a bit more about you know IAF and I know you've been involved for quite a while, so when did you become a member of IAF?    A.S   So that, yeah, yeah, it will go back to what you were saying before that for many years, or for many for some time, most of us actually don't know we're doing facilitation. Probably it's because facilitation is so new and even so not known so much. So I found myself in Italy for a long time helping organize big events, but not just the logistical part, but especially the content part, not the content in the sense of Creating Content content, but in helping like the group using their content to work together. And I was continually searching for, I was sure there was some sort of thing, some organization, some shared knowledge on this. And then when, finally, in 2018 I moved to Brussels, I got to know about the IAF Belgian chapter, and I was really excited. They have, they have, and it's still ongoing, a monthly meetup in Belgium. And it's, uh, being so particular in Belgium because, especially Brussels, because it's a real international city, because of all the institutions, NATO and the EU and 10s of 1000s of people who basically speak English as a common language. So the IAF chapter does all its things in English. And I started frequenting that. And I remember I never missed a meeting. It was like so important. And then in 2019 there was the Milan Conference. And so it was set then from then onwards, I nearly immediately became a member and and prompted onwards. It's history. It's sort of, it went on now.   H.J   Once you start finding out about all these things that go on within IAF and the wider community, you sort of slowly become more and more involved. Nice. And I realize, although I'm going to ask you in a bit about your role as regional director, I'm not actually sure, are you part of a particular chapter, given that you sort of, you're a little bit of a nomad. You move around quite a lot.    A.S   Yeah, actually, I still am part of the Belgian chapter. Actually, I got elected together with others on the IAF the Belgium board, so I'm a member in absentia, because, I mean, I know they meet regularly. I don't have lots of time, but I do give them all the support needed, like all the others, actually, but I have a soft spot for Belgium, I must confess, evidently, yeah, so, so that's, that's what I do.   H.J  Great. So officially, part of IAF Belgium. And what kinds of things have you been involved with? So obviously, you've been going, you know, you started going to the meetups in Belgium, and it sounds like you went to the Milan Conference. What else have you been involved in, either as a participant or part of organizing?    A.S  So, so yeah, these official meetings. I mean, the Belgian reality is quite interesting, because the meetups are like, there are two or three different types. Like the basic is where there is someone who specialized in some methodology or something he's been doing, or she's been doing for many years, and they hold a session where they share all their knowledge. And another type of session would be where there's someone who's learning, maybe a new method, and would create a safe space, where they use us as guinea pigs, sort of and, and then at the end there's also, there's always a debrief.  And then the in both of these, it's so interesting, because you get to widen your knowledge of how to help groups with facilitation, yeah. Another point I forgot to mention, in my activities, I am finding myself staying quiet for long stretches in Italy, because most, some, most of my clients, are in Italy, actually. And the Italian chapter, I'm very much in contact with them. I know them, most of them, personally. They've just had this Friday and Saturday, their annual conference. It was a real big success. I had a work in Vienna, so I couldn't go there. But last year I went. It's always a really interesting event. So they don't hold monthly meetings. But for example, I got to know there is a group in Padova, in Padua, which meets every two months. They call it Facilitator Playground for one morning, and they do many the same as we do in Belgium. So every time I can, I go up and stay with them and support them, participate. So yeah, it's giving this back up is really essential. Because in these meetings, you find big community building between facilitators. You find a pool of learning with shared knowledge between facilitators and you and encourage each other, you get to know, maybe you get to know, people with whom you could actually work later on. But on the whole, you become friends with others, and I think that's a real big it's something. It's not nothing. It's a when we help each other, and you get to know differences, which can become a gift, because you widen your your personality, your knowledge, your approach to things, yeah.   H.J   Yeah I really love that about the IAF and just the sort of wider community as well, hanging out with other people that really love to talk about facilitation and, and all its kind of broad, you know, broad aspects, different aspects of it, and, and, yeah, you're right. You sort of, you do start to make friends and start to build up those relationships, and it's really nice. And I think, well, I guess for you, particularly, working across different countries, actually, you get to sort of have a foot in a couple of different camps, which must be nice, so true. And I really like the idea of the I think I've heard them called, like, Facilitation Labs, that kind of thing, where you talked about, with Belgium, you bring a sort of something to try out with the group. That sounds really interesting as well.   A.S   It's because we're all in different phases of our professional life. There are those who maybe are already quite expert in some some methodologies, and have had many experiences, you know? I mean, one thing which really strikes me about facilitation is that often we describe it as an art and a science. And I think with these things, we do exactly that, and we learn that. So science is quite precise, and you need to get to know precise things. And there are aspects of facilitation which are very functional, very specific. But it's also an art, and an art you cannot foresee it. You you do it only by experience. You can learn by experience because you never, you cannot say, okay, there will be 10 people, and I will do this, this and that. There are always so many variables and unforeseen things. And how do you respond to that? So experience helps, sharing experience helps as well, and training in this thing is really important,   H.J   Definitely. I think that's one of the things I love about it. You're never quite sure what's going to happen, and I know that terrifies some people. Okay, so I want to ask you now a bit more about your, the fact you are the director of the Europe and Middle East region, and I think you started, or you stepped into that role at the beginning of the year. I just wanted to know what, what that entails, what are your main responsibilities?   A.S   Okay, I'm still trying to find out. I mean, we're still in the end of March, so just the first quarter. First thing, I'm still alive, so that's quite something. I find there are two faces of this responsibility, of the service. So one aspect is like the grassroots, sort of helping all those facilitators in our region in any way possible where they need help, evidently, but help is such a big word, and it has so many different possibilities and connotations, so this would be one aspect. And the other aspect is representing all these facilitators in our region with their wide diversity, I think we're one of the, not the, but definitely one of the most diverse regions and all of IAF and so representing them on the wider world context, where we meet as a board, as a global board where we set directions for IAF globally. And in this sense, bringing this specific characteristic, which is ours as a gift to the rest of IAF, and also learning and and receiving the gift of the others and their cultures, their ways of approaching things, and sharing and and, and trying to bridge that with IAF regionally. I think it's, it's a very interesting experience. Yeah, these two aspects.    H.J   And quite challenging, probably as well. Because, I guess when I think about it, we are a very diverse region. I mean, you know, Europe and Middle East in itself is a mixture of quite a lot of different countries and cultures. So that must have a few challenges as well, I presume?   A.S   Oh, definitely, definitely yeah. For example, soon we're going to have Facilitation week now, and evidently, finding a slot during the year where that could be ideal is not, is not so simple, because we have so different, how do you say, cycles, different cultures and then the holidays and weathers and things which are which characterize then our actions and and how we organize ourselves as societies. And for example, in Europe, or if you say we're going to hold something in August, people would say, Oh, forget it. I mean, it's a non-starter, but if you do that in India, it could be probably quite good, or in other parts of the world. So when we meet as globally, like even when we meet regionally, actually, we're really challenged to live by what we preach and be good facilitators so that we find consensus and try to understand better what is the best solution by hearing each other well.   H.J   Yeah that's really interesting, sort of practicing what we preach, I suppose, and living that experience of being part of that sort of quite diverse group, and perhaps that helps us think about, you know, groups that we're actually working with, hadn't thought of it like that. So it's March, and you've only just really started the role. Is there anything particularly significant that you've been involved in so far, or is it still very much Finding your Feet?    A.S   No, definitely. One very significant and very important thing which I've been involved in is the annual face to face board meeting which the global board does. So we usually meet on Zoom. Previously, it was once a month. Now we've decided to do that once every quarter, and there are other meetings as well. So it's not that just once every quarter, for example, very soon we'll have this, we call it The Big We, where we as a global board, meet with many other people who are normally quite involved at a local level in bringing about and helping facilitation worldwide. So it's not just four times a year we meet. But usually all these meetings are on Zoom. So having a global face to face meeting is so important because, evidently, meeting face to face, it has its own characteristics. You cannot equate it to a Zoom meeting. Both are good, but they have differences. And so it's so nice to actually physically meet those people with whom you work with and get to know them. Get to know them much closer. Get to know what they like, how they go about, what are their characteristics, what they like, what are their challenges and together, maybe find out how we can dialogue and bring about, help each other in those challenges. Yeah,  it was, we've just had this three weeks ago in Lisbon for basically three days, and it was so enriching. So personally and even as a group, I would believe, from what I heard afterwards, very, very enriching.   H.J   And that's the global board, and so presumably attended by regional directors from other regions as well. Who was there?   A.S   Yeah, definitely. So we had one type of member would be the regional director. So apart from myself from Europe and Middle East, there was one from Asia, who's actually from India right now, but it's such an enormous region, and actually we dream of eventually trying to find a solution, like creating more regions out of that region, because it's like half of the world. But anyway, myself and the Asian representative, a representative from Oceania, a representative from Africa, Central and South America, and then the North America. And then, apart from these regional directors, there was the executive committee. So that would be the chair, and the Vice Chair, where the Vice Chair actually is currently, is our ex Regional Director, Tamara, most of you know her. We had a representation of the executive administration, because we're based right now in Canada as an office. And then we had some directors for specific competencies, like, for example, we have one for learning and all the certifications, one for big events and activities, one for communications and one for member experience. So, so we're, we're quite, quite a group, and but it's, it's really interesting, because you learn a lot from each other.    H.J  Yeah, and it's really, really good to kind of hear or get a bit of a flavor of what that global boards and what IAF at a global level actually looks a bit more like as well, because obviously we perhaps focus on our chapters or even our region, but we are part of that much larger organization as well. So aside from that place in the global board, we also, and I say we because I am also on the Europe and Middle East leadership team. We had a face to face get together in Istanbul in November, didn't we? And that was us creating an action plan. So I guess that's the sort of, perhaps other side, or one of the other sides of your role is leading the leadership team.   A.S  Yeah, and that's, that's very nice, because we as a region are organized with this. So normally we're organized at chapter level. So in a nation or a space, a geographical area, 5-10 members put themselves together and create a chapter, and they help each other. They do some training activities, some social activities, some learning activities, as I was saying. And normally, we meet regularly, once a month, with all the chapter leads from all the region. And it's very enriching. Some can come, sometimes some can come another time, but it's always really enriching. Now to help these persons, to help all our members, we created some years ago, a leadership team, sort of some members who have experience and who can help the regional director. So with the regional director, there is this team, and my experience before and even now, is that we really work together and try to find out solutions, try to understand what's happening where there is necessity of health, and how to promote as much as possible, even outside the the idea of of the practice of facilitation. So like two things, helping those who are already members, and helping spread the notion, the idea of facilitation.   H.J   It's a really nice group to be part of as well. For me, who tends to mostly stay in the UK, it's nice to be part of such an international group. And I'm surprised you have time to do any work.   A.S Even I    H.J   So thinking, thinking forwards about, you know, your next couple of years as regional director, what are you looking forward to, either personally or for the region?    A.S   Well, definitely for the region, I'm really passionate about trying to help as much as I can. And as much as we can, because I think here I can speak for all the team, and I think we are really helping each other in the sense we really want to do those two functions I was mentioning before. Like trying to help facilitators in all the region and growing them as well, because we know that if people join IAF, then they can help the local, the local and the global community with what they bring inside and learn and from an international experience, all the knowledge which there is to learn and take, to apply to your work, to your situation. So it's always a two way exchange. So one, really, one big thing I wish is to help as much with with the team, with the leadership team, to help as much as possible this aspect of our members. We I don't know you are going to ask this later on, but I can already say it, we're like 600 roughly, IAF members in our region, which makes us quite one of the big, big regional groupings, very varied. And we have, I don't remember well, but at least 40 different languages across our regions, and I don't know how many time zones we have. So there's a very big different culture and social situations, but with some very common trends, like, because human interactions are, in some ways, are always the necessity to help people listen to each other, to create space for the other, to appreciate differences, to work at solutions and where people can feel comfortable with them and fully represented. These are common trends which and necessities which cut across all the region and probably all across the world. So we have a lot of things to learn from each other, and even how we face them, what solutions we bring, even sharing those is already very enriching.   H.J   And that is so true, isn't it? We do think about that diversity, because it's quite obvious, I suppose, as you say, there's 40 different languages. I had no idea there were that many languages, and all the different members and different cultures and time zones, et cetera. But actually, there is so much that brings us together, and so many commonalities as well. And I guess when you get together, you meet those people, whether it's online or, you know, in real life. You sort of notice more I suppose, you start to talk about those things and what brings us together and what binds us as a community I guess.   A.S Yeah, so true.    H.J   The other thing I wanted to ask you about is your hopes, anything else in terms of your, what you'd like to see?   A.S   Yeah, so I'd love to see facilitation getting a wider spotlight on it. From a social point of view, culture point of view, I think we're very young. 30 years is just a few three decades so, but we have lots of responsibilities, because I think many social problems, many work problems in other organizations, could really benefit from our help and from the way we can contribute to better understandings between persons, to better work between persons within organizations, any type of organizations, better understand reception of gifts and sharings between each other more well, all these things, I think, could be put on spot a bigger spotlight. What is the contribution of process? How can a process help us be better? Or I would word it in this way, processes have proven to help us be better, to be more functional, to arrive at better, more solid solutions. So why don't we learn from these? Why don't we learn from Why don't we put that on a spotlight? and all that is necessary to make those processes happen, like the ground rules most people like, forget that we need to be prepared for a process. They imagine that it's a machine. You press the button and out comes the coffee. But like, so all this, my great desire, my great dream, would be that this gets more appreciated, gets more talked about. People desire it, understand it. Understand this necessity, and we grow our membership so as to give an answer to this necessity.    H.J   I hadn't really, I mean, it's, it's, we all know that facilitation is not that well understood, I suppose. So I think, yes, shining a spotlight is so important. But I hadn't really thought about the fact it's young or that 30 years, three decades, is young, I suppose, compared to lots of other occupations, that was something that hadn't really occurred to me. So it's interesting hearing you describe it as that. I wanted to ask you about something specific, and that is the regional conference I believe we have at the end of this year. I know it's still in its infancy a little bit, but could you share a little bit with us about the conference?    A.S   Yeah, definitely. I mean, the concept of a regional conference is very important for us. Conferences by chapters are so good, I think. As I was saying, just a few minutes before, the Italians have just finished theirs. It's always a big success, more than 100,120, 150 people passed by. It's something which really invigorates the community, gets people to get to know about facilitation. It puts facilitation in a spotlight in that region, in that area, in this country, in the chapter. So it's always a big thing done already in a Chapter wise. I remember I personally helped organize, together with Marie from Belgium and we were in three working on this project. And we did a very small but in, it was the first time, Forum we called it in Belgium, and I think it was so important because we kick started a process. So now talking about a regional conference, it is definitely more challenging, because we, you open up, you expect more people. But it is also more, it produces, it can give more because it can help even in this wider beyond regional confines exchange and putting a bigger spotlight on facilitation. So this year, this coming year, we've had our colleagues from Romania who have been so great. The Romanian chapter right now is doing a golden moment. They have got many, many members, increasing every, every day, basically. So and they're really enthusiastic, even though it is a big challenge, but they decided to go in for it. So they're talking about something around the first weekend of November, if I'm not wrong, the dates are being confirmed in these days, but we're definitely talking about November in Romania, and it's a it's the main topic will be about facilitation, and in a wider sense, what use it has, Why, how it can be used, and what benefits it gets to both to those who need it and also to those who are participating. So yeah, and we're really enthusiastic. There is this team. We met them recently, their young team, working with great enthusiasm. And I think it's going to be a very nice event.   H.J   Yeah, I'm quite excited about it, and I know from having spoken, we did a chapter chat with Bob Dan a little while ago, and obviously I've spoken to him a few times, and I know he just kind of exudes enthusiasm. So I'm hoping it's going to be a very exciting conference.   A.S  Yeah, I remember in a very small experience, the local one I was mentioning before, in Belgium, with Marie and Laura. It was such an invigorating experience. And we had like people who were in Consultancy or a facilitation for 20 years and even more. And then we had these young professionals, maybe working with a big accountancy firm, but doing like serving small or medium sized companies who were really keen to know about the principles of facilitation, because they really needed to put them in practice. And when you put these people together, and everyone is learning from each other, and everyone is practicing, and we did this in a small scale, in Belgium, you can imagine what happens when you do it on a regional level.   H.J   Yeah, sounds fascinating. And, you know, quite fantastic to think about all those different people coming together. And of course, we have our conference coming up next month as well, the England and Wales conference.   A.S I'm coming    H.J   Yay. I was gonna say that's exciting enough, but it sounds like actually, we have got a few people coming from outside the UK, which always makes it really exciting. So I look forward to seeing you there.   A.S   I will, and even me. I look forward to seeing you there and all the others.   H.J   Fantastic. So just one last question to wrap up this podcast. What is one thing that you most love about facilitation?    A.S   Oh, this is, I love this question, because I think it's a bit what we started off with. I love it when I see people fulfilled, because they have managed to work together well, not withstanding the challenges. Probably they would have started thinking at the beginning that they would not have achieved anything with the type of people there with, they were going to work with. And I really love it when you see the expression of their faces and the way they're speaking at the end of the facilitation, and you see that something has happened. We don't know exactly what, but yeah, there are concrete things which have come out, but something more profound in every person has happened. They've become friends, they've become but it's beyond that. They've, something happened which we are in a difficulty, actually, to formulate well, but that type of reaction, I really love it, and I think it's one of the things which really I like about facilitation.    H.J   Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that. So we are going to draw the podcast to a close. Thank you so much, Andrew, for joining me.   A.S   Helene, thanks. It's been a real pleasure.    H.J   It's been lovely to talk to you. I just wanted to quickly ask how people could get in touch with you if they want to? Do you have an email address that you could share?    A.S   The official email address is [email protected]    H.J  Brilliant. Thank you very much, and we will put that in the show notes as well. Thank you very much.   A.S   Thank you and all the best for all the listeners. And thank you as well for doing all this.   Outro   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.    N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com      H.J To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.    N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?    H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?    N.W Then send us an email at [email protected]    H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

In this episode Helene talks to Bianca Jones - Award Winning Mental Health & Anti-Racism Training Provider, MHFA England Associate and Founder & Managing Director of EDP Training, Paul Brand- Facilitator and Management Consultant, Director at Risk Solutions and IAF England and Wales board member and Cat Duncan-Rees-  Facilitator and founder of Curators of Change and also an IAF England and Wales board member.  She starts by asking Bianca to talk a bit about the work she does and what led her to develop EDP and the Race Ahead training She asks Cat and Paul about what led the IAF England and Wales Leadership Team to ask Bianca to deliver this training course online in October and about their key takeaways. Cat and Paul talk about the RA4F special thread at the IAF England and Wales conference Facilitate 2025 this year and where the idea came from?   Bianca shares some examples of specific impact or changes she's seen in a facilitator's approach after attending Race Ahead Bianca gives some more details her session at the conference and the training course she is offering the day before. All the guests then talk about why a focus around racial equality at the conference is important and why active race awareness matters in facilitation and what anti-racism might look like for facilitators. The guests also talk about their hopes for longer term initiatives in teh facilitation communicty around anti-racism. To book onto the RA4F course on 24th April 2025:  To book onto the Facilitate 2025 conference   To contact Bianca - [email protected] To contact Cat - [email protected] To contact Paul - [email protected] To contact Helene: [email protected]    To contact the conference team: [email protected] Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell, and today we're going to be talking to Bianca Jones, Cat Duncan-Rees and Paul Brand. Bianca is an award winning mental health and anti racism training provider, MHFA England associate and founder and managing director of EDP training. Paul is a facilitator and management consultant, Director at Risk Solutions and IAF England and Wales board member and Cat is also a facilitator, founder of curators of change, and also an IAF England and Wales board member. Welcome everybody. So nice to see you all. Okay, so we've got a little bit of introductory stuff out of the way. I am going to dive in with my questions, and my first one is to you, Bianca, tell us all. Tell us about the work that you do.   B.J Oh, thank you so much. So I am Bianca Jones. I run a company based in Bristol called EDP training, which stands for Empower developed people, although we deliver training all over. We are eight years old, and we started by delivering Mental Health First Aid training. I retrained with Mental Health First Aid England, and through my work, I saw that there was massive inequalities in the workplace with black and brown people or racially minoritized individuals is the language that I will use, and I wanted to do something about it. So I started pulling together the race ahead suite of courses all around race, equity and allyship, to help people really understand what they're being an ally to. And that's been since 2020. We've been delivering our race ahead suite of anti racism and allyship courses .   H.J Great, and what kind of people come to these race ahead training courses?   B.J So first of all, anybody can sign up, because we have digital options as well, and anybody who's interested in kind of racial inequality. But we started focusing at corporate organisations, so mainly businesses, but I work with so many different types of organisations, small organisations to really, really large you know, with over 500 people, we work with charities as well, nonprofits, and we have lots of different options for if it's just an individual that wants to do some training, they can access our digital self-led options. And then we also have a train the trainer, because other trainers wanted to be able to train in this course and be able to deliver it as well. So we started that in 2022 in September, I believe. So we've currently got 15 other instructors out there that are delivering the race ahead suite of courses as well, but we tried to have lots of different options to make it accessible for anyone that wants to learn about this very important and vital subject.    H.J Wow. So it's not just you. In fact, there's quite a large group of you then.   B.J Absolutely taking over, spreading the message with the mission of race equity and allyship.    H.J Fantastic. Okay, and I've met you before, along with some of the IAF leadership team, because you delivered your race ahead training course to us, didn't you? And so I'm going to turn to Kat and Paul now to just remind us, or remind me, and let everybody else know how this came about. How did the IAF leadership team come to engage Bianca and be participants in her training course?   P.B We started having a conversation about a number of things to do with racial discrimination and minoritization out of the back of our two most recent conferences. And we were looking at a whole range of stuff about, you know, how racially balanced was our actual community? How comfortable were people from different backgrounds in that community? And we had some conversations, you know, because not everybody was entirely comfortable. And people had some experiences they thought, well, that could have been a lot better. And really, we started to think about whether we should have some kind of initiative across our community of IAF England and Wales and friends, that we could invite people to join, to do some self work in this area. Think about how it affects our work as facilitators. And we thought that the first step we should take was as a leadership team, or at least parts of the leadership team actually engaged with that ourselves, and we had a contact who knew Bianca. And so about eight of us had two or half day online sessions with you, and started to think about that as the kernel of something we might spread more widely, and I think we'll talk about later in the podcast. So yeah, but very much the sense of, well, we had to start with us before we start thinking of leading something with other people.   H.J And Cat I know you were involved in a lot of the conversations that led up to this, and for you, I think it was something that was very important that we did. Wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that and how we got to where we got to?   C.D Yeah, absolutely, really important Helen. I think for me, just picking up on what Paul sort of said around the conference, I think this first really started to come to light post COVID I think it's important to say when we started to bring people together. So there's a heightened awareness anyway, coming out of that post COVID period, and the world is looking and feeling very, very different. And, you know, we did a hybrid conference in Birmingham few years ago, we went on to do another two in Birmingham. We've got conference coming up this year, but over the previous three conferences, there's been a steady kind of build up of us trying to diversify that community, invite people in to do some very different sessions to really push the boundaries in terms of what we mean by inclusion for the facilitator community. I think, as well, and maybe this is a whole other podcast in itself, that idea of neutrality and how can we as facilitators really genuinely stand for, stand alongside those who are from minoritized communities, Race being one of those minoritized communities.    So some of the feedback from conference has been quite hard to digest. We know we haven't always got it right, but as Paul said, what we really want to do is start with ourselves as a leadership team and a board in order to be able to have the knowledge and the insights that we need to confidently be able to get alongside people who are coming into our spaces. I say our spaces, actually we want it to be, you know, their space, and for them to be really much a part of it. And how can we also challenge back in the broader facilitated community, because there is a huge lack of awareness. And I think that's something that's taken me a little bit by surprise, my own lack of awareness in that, not just the lack of awareness of other people, but as I'm growing in confidence and awareness of why this is so important, it's helping me to have the confidence to be able to challenge others. And I think that's where we're at now in terms of conference, and not just conference, actually, Paul will talk a little bit more about that. It's, you know, what we're committed to as a community over the next 12 months and beyond, in terms of really pushing that and diversifying things even further, and helping people to understand why this is so important, whatever spaces they're in.    H.J And before we jump into talking a bit more about conference, actually, I just wanted to quickly ask both of you about your key takeaways from the training, because I know if I go back and think about part of the training there was a bit of an action plan at the end, and I go back and I think about all that. I think wow, there was a lot in there and for me personally, I learned so much. But I just wondered if I could ask each of you, maybe Cat first and then Paul, for a couple of your key takeaways from Bianca's training?   C.D Yeah, I think my key takeaway was, one of them was, you know, really that commitment and willingness. In terms of a training session, you know, the people who came to those online sessions in themselves, or quite a diverse group of people in terms of gender, race, age, was notable as well and experience, you know, longevity as a facilitator, and how long people have been working in this space. And I think it was just brilliant to be in a space where people could be themselves, bring their questions and challenges and their lack of insight. And I say that for myself as well, and have a really open conversation. But I think the takeaway from that overall is how sensitively and how brilliantly Bianca supported us to do that and looked after her own well being in that. Because I think there's a fear for me of getting it wrong. But actually, you know, that's why we are where we are. I think I've been driven by that fear, personally, of getting it wrong, and therefore that drives you to a place of inaction, whereas actually, you know, and the other takeaway is that it's better just to do stuff, to jump in, be alongside. Yes, we are going to get it wrong, but actually it's better that we're going in and having those conversations and doing that than not acting at all. But having that awareness that Bianca brought to us has really, really helped with that. And you know, my commitment to that is to go down the route of, you know, continuing the training personally, and hopefully doing the train the trainer.   H.J And Paul, a couple of key takeaways from you ?   P.B The one that struck me very hard in the stuff Bianca did with us. And here I'm feeding partly off a similar conversation a few years ago with another Association I'm involved in and some of this became very familiar, is I am the archetypal un-minoritized person. I'm a middle aged, white, educated male, you know, I have, I have the sort of trifecta of advantages in life, in some sense. And it always strikes me in beginning, what Bianca said about just how hard work, general life can be if you are minoritized in any way. And we're talking particularly about race in this case, just because of the constant chipping away of places and language and society and expectations and things that people don't even quite realise they're doing in terms of, I mean, microaggressions is the thing we're talking about that have become so embedded in our language, in our society. But if you're on the other side of them, it's not that any one of them, you know, lays you out flat, it's the constant wear. And starting to get people more aware of, particularly people who, like myself, are not minoritized in any way or in largely way, of the fact that that is very real and very present for people is actually a huge step, I think, in starting to educate yourself. And it's no more complicated than the idea of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. And you know, how complicated is that? And yet many of us never have to, because it's not us who's suffering it.    And I think also support what Cat was saying. I think a lot of people, whether they're dealing with race or any other minoritization, they become paralysed with the idea that, well, I don't, I don't know how to approach this, and they end up doing nothing. And I think there has to be a willingness in convening a space to talk and have this conversation that actually you're going to make a mistake at some point. In the sense that you're going to do something, and somebody of a different colour or minoritization is going to feel it, but it's better than doing nothing and so and just washing it back under the carpet of your life and saying, Well, you know, maybe I don't have to do anything about this. And so we get into this idea that, well, we need to start with us. We then need to think about the spaces we convene, and what we can do as IAF England and Wales to make those more inclusive, safer, more open to this kind of conversation. And then, of course, the third layer, which, of course, is the ultimate goal, is that the people from our community who come to our spaces to think about facilitation and development, that they go out into the world, and they are more able to not only be more sensitive to racial minoritization issues, but then also move on to in a number of different ways, actually becoming a force that acts against racial minoritization in the way they run their session. So that may be very overt, or it may be very subtle, just in terms of not letting things slide when they happen in a session. And maybe we'll talk about our ideas for that a bit later on.   H.J Thank you. I just wanted to come back to Bianca, actually, and just obviously, you get a lot of feedback I'm sure, from all of your different training sessions that you do. How do Cat and Paul's comments and key takeaways stack up against what you normally hear? Is that the kind of thing you normally hear? Obviously, these are specific, perhaps to the facilitation community, but in general, what kind of feedback do you get?   B.J The difference with this course, with the eight folks, was that you're all facilitators, you're working with groups. So the feedback was very much the confidence came out about people being able to challenge or having the language to challenge. And we go through a tool called the Four Ds, which is by a company called Pearn Kandola. So we go through, how to kind of challenge if we hear anything, and just more aware of being able to spot microaggressions. So that came through on the feedback is the confidence increase for people to actually action. So not just being passive, but actually going into action and feeling like actually they could pick up something in a group, and they could gently, maybe challenge someone to think about what they've just said, and actually noticing if somebody's being excluded or someone's being left out, and just having a little bit more awareness around the dynamics of race and racism, and how that can manifest and play out in a group. So there was more of that kind of feedback that came through from the group in October. It was nice to see, though, that I've seen a lot more action in this group, a lot more willingness and want for action.    H.J That's interesting. Why do you think that is? just putting you on the spot there   B.J  Oh, I think it were, I think facilitation in itself, the group that we had, are probably more active than some other groups. I think the willingness and what happened over the two half days as we bonded as a group as well, we kind of galvanised each other. I think that was really, really helpful. And I just think there was a general interest in this, and the willingness piece was there, higher than maybe some other groups that I've worked with.   H.J Interesting. Okay, thank you. And I really enjoyed your course. It opened up so many new things for me. So thank you.  Right to my next question. Then Paul has touched on this a bit already, and I just want to bring us now to thinking a bit more about the conference, because there is a race ahead for facilitation thread at the IAF England and Wales Conference, which is called Facilitate 2025 and that's happening in April. And so I just wanted to ask Cat and Paul, what is this special thread, and where did that idea come from? The leadership team has done this training course. We've all been or eight of us went on Bianca's course. But what about the rest of it? How does this feed into the conference?    C.D Over the last three years of conference, we have, as I've said, already pushed the boundaries in terms of diversity and inclusion, and we have very proactively welcomed people into the community and into conference from a whole range of different backgrounds who would never have potentially even identified themselves as a facilitator in the first place, let alone being part of a community of people like this. And as I said earlier, you know that some of the challenges that that's then raised, obviously, if you're inviting people into a space and you're inviting them in to deliver sessions on on topics around race or inclusion or equality or whatever, then you know you have to expect that there's going to be some learning from that. And so you know, over the last few years, there's been a lot of feedback, a lot of learning. We've gone down the route of doing the training with Bianca, and we've decided that this year we will put at the heart of the conference, and we're putting the emphasis on anti racism. That's not to say that everything that you will experience at conference will focus on anti racism, but I think what's really important to us is that as an environment, as a space, over the two days, we are challenged to make people feel really welcome, regardless of their background, but in particular, those black or brown people that are coming into the space, because that has been a challenge for people in the past. So that needs to cut across the whole conference.    But alongside that, we are hoping or aiming to have at least a quarter of the sessions. So in conference, we generally have four different tracks, four different themes. It's the same this year. But rather than have one track that focuses specifically on anti racism, we've decided that we will blend that. So whatever the track is, people have the opportunity to deliver a session that will focus more explicitly on issues of race and racism, and our aim is that we would have at least a quarter of the programme that will focus on those topics. Now, as you can imagine, this is quite a big, bold step, and while we've increased the number of sessions that people have delivered around issues of diversity and equality over the last few years, we probably haven't hit that kind of like, you know, a quarter of the programme is tackling those issues, so that's our commitment. But anything that we can, we can get included in the programme that focuses around race and anti racism would be, would be brilliant. So we're actively encouraging people to submit sessions with that as a focus. Obviously, the challenge to that, then back to us as a community, a leadership team and a conference organising team, is how we make sure those people are supported in that space as well. So that's something that we're giving some thought to as well.    But in addition to that, Bianca will be there on the programme, and will also be delivering some sessions specifically around anti racism and race awareness. So we would really encourage people to sign up to those sessions as well. Bianca is also going to be running her race awareness course. That's an additional offer to the actual conference itself, but we've booked the venue for the day before. So we really, really encouraging people from the facilitator community to book onto Bianca's course the day before. Obviously, there is a cost for that. Bianca can't deliver this stuff for free, but that is being promoted as part of the, there are other sessions as well that you could opt to do on the day or the two days before the conference, but, but Bianca's course is one of those as well.    P.B We had the conversations about, well, what can we do at conference? And that's sensible, because conferences are our biggest space that we convene with 100-120, maybe more, this year, facilitators for two whole days. So at the conference, there will be a presence of this theme, if you like, in some sessions directly with people like Bianca. There might be some sessions where someone is doing a session on personal development, and they just weave this in as one of the points. It then is also gonna be present as Cat said, we're doing a pre-conference training day with a number of courses being offered, one of which is the opportunity of the course that we did with Bianca, but in a day. But we wanna set all of that in a longer conversation, because this isn't something you know, you go to a session at conference and that's it you're done. This is a longer conversation. And just as we convene the space of conference, and we convene the space of meetups, and indeed this podcast, we want to spend some time, at least a year, probably longer, opening up a space for facilitators to join us on this journey. To quite likely offer them to do Bianca's course as well, so there's a common base. But then to carry that on in an ongoing conversation as a community about personal experience, personal successes or failures in the area, advice and that kind of thing. Because this isn't something that people, even facilitators hear about, learn something, put it into action immediately. It's a longer process of sculpting and shaping what you do now so that it works better in this area, both in terms of your awareness of what may be happening in racial minoritization in your sessions, but also what you might be able to do about it, and that's a piece of self work as well.    So what we've done is EDP 's original course is called race ahead. So we've talked with Bianca about doing some very small tweaks to that to make it very tailored for people who are facilitators, and we want to convene a number of opportunities with Bianca, for people to go through that training, but as a group of facilitators. So everybody in the cohort is facilitators, and then to join the wider conversation, not just at conference, but at other places. And that will be a rolling thing. So for some people, they might be able to, you know, do the course with Bianca in February, March, do some other reading, join a conversation. They might continue that conversation at the conference. For other people, going to a session at the conference might be their starting point. And so we're looking forward into the rest of this year and on, where we might continue to welcome people in, invite them, possibly to do the training with EDP, so there's a common language for having the conversation and then could join some kind of conversation platform, and then we'll see where we go from there. Because this is a, you know, a life journey, trying to get people to bring this into their practice, into their personal lives, into what they do with groups and communities. And that takes a bit of time. So we're going to have this initiative called RA for F, race ahead for facilitators, and we know we're going to do in the first part of the year. We're thinking about what we might do in the longer term.   H.J Great. Thank you. So it's really interesting to hear the kind of backgrounds and the hopes and the, you know, the context for all of this. Bianca then I just wanted to come into a bit more of the detail. So session at the conference and the training course before the conference. So perhaps let's talk about in the conference, what kind of thing will you be doing there?   B.J So we are still confirming the details, but as Paul said, for some people, that might be their first introduction. So we're still trying to keep this at a level so that everybody can have a common understanding because what we want to do is bring everybody to a baseline. So we will be focusing on understanding racism in all the ways that it can manifest, acknowledging it, accepting it, being able to challenge it as well. Language is something that we're going to touch on, because that's something that a lot of facilitators are nervous around, is using the correct language and not offending people. So we will be touching on what we call racial literacy as well to give people confidence to talk on this topic. Because if we haven't got the confidence to talk about it, we end up silent, and that's part of the problem. Part of racism is that silence. Microaggressions, so what they sound like, how we can challenge them, how we can pick up on them, and some strategies as a facilitator to support the person that has delivered the microaggression as well. And then allyship and a full understanding of what actually that is for facilitators, because, as was touched on, facilitators can get into spaces and groups that maybe there isn't a full representation of black and brown people. So there's that opportunity there as well to really demonstrate allyship during the group setting, but also in your brand and your practices, the way that you design your training, we will go into as well for representation and, yeah, creating safe spaces as well. So it'd be more around, what is racism? How does it manifest? What can we do about it? And also, what can you do in your practice as a facilitator as well.    H.J And that's within the conference. And what about the training course? Then before the conference, the day before the conference, we've got a whole day, and that presumably, is a much more meaty offering. And as Cat said, this is an addition to the conference, so it's at an additional cost. Can you tell us a little bit about what we might get from attending that training session?    B.J I was so excited about this one. So this is our one day race ahead course. This is the very course you folks have been on as well. And this is where we go into a little bit more detail about systemic racism, the history of racism, the context, really, of how we got to where we are today, which a lot of people, as Cat and Paul have said, are not aware of the history in England, in particular, of how we got to where we are today, or that this is still an issue, or a massive issue. So we'll look at a lot around context, a lot around terms. You've heard me say people of colour, global majority, racially minoritized, so we go into a deep dive into terms. We focus a lot more on microaggressions, just because that's the most common thing that you will hear in group settings, in organisations. And then we do a little bit of an allyship reflection of where we are as an ally individually, and where maybe our organisation, our brand is, our personal practice is in regards to allyship and how does it demonstrate it? So we do a lot of what we're doing at the conference, but more of a deeper dive, more meatier, and it's in the classroom, so we can actually have that face to face, those conversations, which is where the learning actually comes from. It's those juicy conversations. So I'm really excited and looking forward to taking a group on that journey with me.    H.J Fantastic and I should just say you don't have to go to the conference to be able to attend the training course that you are putting on the day before the conference. It is in the same venue, though, and also, I believe that the idea is that if you can't go to this training, there will be some other opportunities in the future, that I know are sort of being discussed after the conference. I don't know if you could say a bit more about that, Bianca ?   B.J We've got so much going on with this thread, and I think it's really exciting, actually, because there's nobody else in this space that is doing anything like this, and, you know, kind of putting a focus on racial equity. So I think you folks are creating a movement, and I think it's important, because facilitators have that power, positions of power. So I'm really excited. So we've got, we're hoping to be able to put on some awareness in race equality week, which is in February. So hopefully we can do that something then. We've got the day before conference, and then post conference, we're going to be hopefully putting on some more dates for people to attend as well. And then we're hoping to be able to chivvy everybody onto one platform to continue the conversation, which I already have in place with kind of learning videos on there for people to access, and also to be able to access them of the course content and models for them to kind of refresh themselves if needed, or if something happens, maybe refer back to the training. But the main thing is that there will be a discussion area where people can talk to each other, and I'm trying to sort that out at the moment exactly how that would work. But we want a space for you folks to be able to continue your community around this and support each other and share best practices, as well as share challenges as well.    H.J Brilliant. There's a whole suite, or, as you say, a whole movement of stuff going on. Okay, so just thinking then about, you know, us as facilitators, and we've talked a little bit already about facilitators in particular, working in this space, or just making sure that they have inclusive sessions and how they kind of respond to different people in groups. But how do you Bianca approach creating a safe and open environment for facilitators to explore these kind of sensitive and important topics, because I know, as Cats mentioned, sometimes we're a little bit concerned that we might say the wrong thing. I know I'm speaking for myself as well, that, you know, I might say the wrong thing. And you've talked a little bit about language, but how do we make sure that, you know, there's a safe and open environment for us to actually be able to ask those questions and talk about this stuff?   B.J Absolutely and I think that psychological safety piece is so important on this topic. The main challenge that I hear from people that are maybe a little bit reluctant is usually due to fear. Basically, they're a little bit scared of the topic, scared of what's maybe going to be asked from them in the day in the classroom. So we start by kind of letting people know what they're going to be going through, what they're going to be experiencing from the off, so that there's no fears around that. In our group agreement, we use that for, obviously keeping the group safe as well. We do a lot of pre work, so you folks would have experienced the pre training, so you have some information and knowledge before you join us in the classroom, which works really, really well to dissolve some defences, to get rid of some of the fear and to make people comfortable, as well as an introduction to myself as well. And during the classroom session, you know, we really make sure that it's a safe, open, inviting space, mutual respect for everybody in the session, and letting people know that this isn't a space for judgement. It is a space for learning. And we are all on a journey, and I do not know, you know, absolutely everything, even I can get things wrong, and that's okay, the fact is, the willingness and that we're all here. So a space of learning, rather than a space of any judgement.   H.J Nice. And I know you've mentioned that willingness before, so I guess that's a key part of that, being willing and open to sort of do that learning.  And then I suppose the important thing, which we have talked a little bit about, is about that kind of impact or future change. And I was just wondering if you could share an example of a specific impact or change that you've seen in a facilitators approach after attending race ahead?   B.J Yeah, really good question. Because, of course, we can go on the sessions, but it's about that what we're doing after. Now, I mentioned a model that we use called the Four Ds by Pearn Kandola, and this is about challenging microaggressions with four different strategies. And the feedback that I've had sometimes, you know, years later, is someone saying we had something happen, somebody accidentally, because they are often accidentally, you know, unwittingly, coming out of our mouths, and then we've offended somebody. But they were able to not only respectfully help the person to think about and reflect and reframe what they have just said, but also support the person that had just received the microaggression as well. So I get a lot of feedback that, oh, I had the confidence to deal with that. I didn't just walk away. Because, of course, I hear the other side of the coin of people and facilitators saying, Oh, something happened and I really wish that I said something, but I didn't. And it's that regret that I hear a lot as well. So I'm hearing a lot about action, a lot of confidence in people being able to actually challenge things and use the right language. And some feedback from the actual course that you folks did as somebody actually put in their review a couple of weeks later, that they've shifted from a Do No Harm mindset to actively seeking ways to reduce harm and address inequalities. And I think that's a beautiful sentence that came out of your session, that somebody shifted from that mindset as well.    H.J Oh, fantastic. That's really good to hear that there's some actual tangible, you know, things that people have said they will do, or have started to do, and that you've been able to receive that feedback as well. Okay. And Cat and Paul coming back to you then a little bit. Why is active race awareness important for facilitators?    P.B As a general thing when we talk about facilitation, and in the IAF we have the competencies and the ethics things, we talk a lot about making safe spaces and balance in a room and all the voices being heard. And I think if we are, for some reason afraid, now we would call out someone who was talking too loud or someone who's being aggressive, but if we're then afraid to call out or at least move, you know, move the room slightly, if somebody's doing something that is in some way racially biassed, or is an aggression towards someone because of their race. If we have that fear, then we're actually not doing what we claim to be able to do and want to be able to do with the room. And so it's important for facilitators, first, to be able to overcome the fear of inaction. And from what Bianca has just said, get out of that, well as long as I don't cause a problem well, you know, it'll be alright. Into actually, no, I can be confident about this. I do have language and things in my toolbox of facilitation which will enable me to respond to an imbalance in power in the room that's coming from race in the same way as I would if it was from aggression or gender discrimination, which you might feel more confident about. So it's overcoming that fear.    I think the other thing is that we also need to be slightly, you know, sort of multi tool people as facilitators, because there's a big difference between, say, you're going and doing you're doing one session with a group, and you realise there's, there's actually some significant racial minoritization going on in the group, and that's one of the, one of the dynamics that's going on in the group. There's a great difference in what can you do if you just have one session with the group, to what can you do if this is a longer term relationship where you might be involved in, you know, a deeper change, and it's almost being open to being able to act in either of those scenarios. Obviously, what you may be able to do if you're only there for the day may be more limited, but not doing nothing is still important.   H.J Thank you. And Kat?   C.D I think that the community of facilitators is very broad, because I think there's been an evolution over the years, maybe in terms of people coming into that facilitator role or community. And I think a lot of people have, or maybe continue to facilitate very much at that process end of things which can often be detached from people and humanity. You are going in, you're helping an organisation or a company, or whatever it is to you know, look at their processes, the way they do things, to be more efficient, to say whatever it is, it can be quite sort of practically focused. But I think certainly over the last few years of introducing new people to the community, what is becoming. And for my own experience of facilitation, I come to it through a much more kind of social route, social impact route. So the tools of facilitation for me are very much around, how can we bring together diverse groups of people? How can we bring together people around topics and issues that are you know, it's not just about the process itself. It's about how it's about the relationships. It's about how people interact in the space and outside of the space. And I think for me, personally, I struggle a little bit on that kind of, where are the boundaries of neutrality within that. It's much easier to be that at that process end and not to influence process, because you're not the process expert, but when it comes to the human end of it, and the social impact and the human experience that people have, and the fact that a lot of us are facilitating in spaces around environment, social issues, community, disability, it is harder, in fact, I would say, impossible, for us to go into any space like that, from from a place of neutrality.    And as the facilitator, we hold a lot of power in terms of, you know, being able to welcome in different perspectives, or even to challenge back. I think, you know, when things are not, not feeling comfortable.  And I think for me, you know, I've learned to be quite intuitive. Look less at process and and really listen and feel what's going on for me and my body, my gut, and think, actually, this doesn't feel right. And why isn't it? Why? And really search with that a bit more. And I think for some elements, and Paul's already alluded to that around maybe disability, around gender and stuff. It's easier because it's a bit more in our face, or has been, you know, over the years, that there is a greater awareness of that, whereas with the race, it's easy to walk into a room full of people who are white and not even notice the lack of brown or black people. But actually, if we have that awareness, we are in a stronger position, you know, even at that kind of process corporate level, to say, okay, is this really representative of your workforce? You know, do you not even employ people who are black and brown, you know, where are those people in the same way that you might go into an organisation, particularly around, you know, in my experience around disability, whatever, and say, Where are the people with the direct lived experience of what you're doing?   H.J Thank you. And to you Bianca, why is active race awareness so important for us as facilitators? and what does anti racism look like for us? so specifically thinking about us as facilitators.    B.J A lot of what Cat has actually touched on, I think we can't ignore the power. We can't ignore the fact that facilitators can access places and spaces and groups that maybe black and brown individuals are lacking in representation. Says that real power that role model piece as well, and I think as an ally, you can do a lot. And I think Cat just mentioned, we're really confident in things like gender inequality and more so around disability as well. But what we do know is that when it comes to race, it's the one that kind of people are feel less relatable to. It gets left out alot, it gets left behind. You know, when I consult with organisations, they often talk about all the great work that they're doing around gender inequality, and then when we talk about race, they're like, oh, it's like, they forgot that one, and people will just leave it alone, which is part of the reason why I called my suite of courses race ahead to just emphasise the putting a focus on race equity. But for facilitators, I think it's really important because of that role model piece as well, and just that influence. If you are constantly facilitating with groups that stretch, that ripple effect is quite exciting that you can have. And it might seem to people, oh, well, that's really small, but actually no, because it's all those little actions of demonstrating allyship through your own practice that will have that ripple effect out into the world, making a difference. I think it's really exciting opportunity for facilitators to be able to learn about this as well.   H.J Thank you so much. Hopefully this will inspire. I think that's our hope, that this will inspire more people, more facilitators, to want to know, you know, what they can actually do. And on that note, we've talked about the kind of the next things that are happening. There's a lot going on which we're all very pleased about, but how do people find out about it? So I'm going to ask Paul this question, how do people find out all about the conference and the stuff that's going on in the conference?    P.B We hope to be able to put up, we've put the conference stuff up that's now up on invent bright. If you look at the IAF England and Wales LinkedIn channel, you'll find information posted in there regularly. So the conference is up and running. When we get going with RA for F we will also be advertising opportunities to perhaps make your journey start with the training with EDP, whether it's online in advance or after the conference or on that day before the conference. There are multiple places you could go. Watch the IAF England and Wales LinkedIn particularly. Look at the bottom underneath this podcast. There'll be some links in there. He says confidently, if not, email me at [email protected]   H.J Bianca, how can people contact you? What's the easiest way?   B.J The easiest way and to directly come to me would be to drop me an email. It is my name, [email protected] , so that's Echo Delta Copper training.co.uk .   H.J Thank you. I'm very impressed you can remember, is it the NATO alphabet? So I never remember the names that go with the letters. Thank you    B.J The phonics   H.J Phonics. Thank you and Cat, how do we get in touch with you?   C.D Yeah, my email is Cat, [email protected]  but you can also, if you've got queries specifically around conference, email the [email protected]       H.J So just to clarify and reassure everybody, all the notes and links and everything else will be in the show notes below. So that'll be links for how you can book onto the conference, how you can book onto Bianca's session, her training session, the RA for F training session, before the conference that will be the 24th of April. And then the conference itself is the 25th and 26th of April 2025 and all that information will be available to you all. And thank you so much for joining me, everybody. It's been really fascinating hearing from all of you and reflecting actually on the training course itself and everything that I learned as well. So thank you for joining me.    Outro   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.    N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com   H.J To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.    N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?    H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?    N.W Then send us an email at [email protected]    H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.      

In this episode Nikki talks to Camilla Gordon, a  process facilitator , about representation in Lego and her new "Figiverse" project. They talk about  How Camilla uses Lego Serious Play in facilitation The lack of representation within Lego  'I had people of colour seeing these more representative Lego pieces and had really emotional reactions to it, because people have never seen themselves in these pieces' 'It has become so normalised that particular identities don't get represented in different spaces' Improving representation and access to more diverse Lego pieces 'recognizing that these forms of representation shouldn't be separated from the more traditional Lego pieces, but actually should be a core part of those packs' Camilla's new "Figiverse" project including how it started and future plans A full transcript is below.   Links: Today's guest: www.Camillagordon.co.uk www.Figiverse.co.uk To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W  Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name's Nikki Wilson, and today I'm going to be speaking to Camilla Gordon. So welcome, Camilla. To get us started would you like to tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.    C.G Sure. So I am a freelance facilitator, and I'm a process facilitator. So focused on getting groups from A to B, I am what I would call sector agnostic. So work across a range of different sectors with lots of different clients and groups from unaccompanied children, refugees and asylum seekers all the way through to corporate boards, and part of my approach in doing that work is trying to facilitate processes that are more inclusive, kind of recognizing power dynamics and hierarchies and rooms. I'm really clear that I'm not a D&I facilitator. For me, that's just the core part of how I work, rather than it being a kind of defined piece. And so, yeah, I do lots of kinds of work, lots of different places, lots of different processes.   N.W  Great. And so the focus of today's conversation is Lego. So how and why do you use Lego in your work?    C.G So I'm a Lego Serious Play facilitator, or what I usually like to say, I'm trained in Lego Serious Play. I say that because I use elements of Lego Serious Play in my work. But I'm not wedded to it in a strict way, in relationship to the process and how it works. I like to take bits and pieces of different methods and tools to make it work for the group, and so use Lego in a range of different ways within the different processes that I run from using Lego Serious Play in its most formal sense, but also using Lego as a tool to explore different parts of conversations and in different ways.   N.W  And so while you like to use some Lego, I believe you noticed there was something that you didn't like about it. So could you tell us a little bit more about that?   C.G  Yeah, definitely. I started using Lego Serious Play about seven years ago, and one of the first things I noticed was the lack of representation within Lego. I saw lots of yellow faces, I saw lots of yellow hands, but I didn't see any representation of black and brown heads and hands. I didn't see any representation of disabled people. I didn't see representation in many ways, in the Lego that I was using.    Following on from that, I spent a lot of time looking for some of those pieces, looking for ways to bring representation into my kit, because the groups that I work with were because the groups that I work with are from a huge range of different backgrounds with a huge range of different identities. And on that journey, I realised part of the reason I didn't have that in my kit to begin with was because very little of it existed in the world. I ended up on Lego resale websites, talking to Lego dealers, and while there were a few representations of black and brown heads, a lot of them were double printed with happy and angry on either side. And I was very aware of the stereotypes and tropes that come along with racial stereotypes, and I didn't want to feature that in my kit. And in the end, I had to get them custom printed, so I bought a whole load of heads with the formal colour being reddish brown or medium Nougat, which is the term the colour definition from LEGO. I had to get them custom printed.    And obviously, recognizing representation isn't just about racial representation. I also spent a lot of time looking for other identities that could be represented. And looked at things like wheelchairs. They were also very hard to source and had only been released in one kit. And they were five pounds each for the ones that I could source and they were very hard to find. Looking for other forms of representation, things such as hijabs, different elements of different religions, different elements of different identities, they were virtually impossible to find. And so it became a bit of a mission for me to try and find more pieces like that. And I came across a statistic. These numbers are not the actual numbers but it was something along the lines of 8 to 10 times the number of yellow and white heads represented to the number of black and brown heads represented. So there was a huge disparity in relation to those pieces.    Part of the reason doing this was so important to me was there is a perception that yellow is a neutral colour and that yellow represents everyone. When I get asked this question, I usually respond by asking, there is an American cartoon, The Simpsons, and they are all yellow. What ethnicity would you say the Simpsons were? Usually I get a very clear answer back, if I don't, then I ask which of the characters in The Simpsons aren't yellow? And then we find characters like the shopkeeper Apu. And then it becomes even more clear that actually that isn't a neutral colour. And time after time after time in my workshops, I had people of colour seeing these more representative Lego pieces and at times, I've had, you know, really emotional reaction to it, because people have never seen themselves in these pieces. I've had young people in wheelchairs who have never seen themselves in these pieces, and I regularly hear things along the lines of, it's me, I've never seen this before, through to young people who have taken away models of themselves and keep them on their on their shelf, because they want to keep that in sight for them, because they have never seen it. And part of the reaction when I talk to people is less about seeing themselves, but the realization that they have never seen themselves because it has become so normalised that particular identities don't get represented in different spaces.    N.W  Okay and so, I mean, obviously you were already taking some action within your own kit, but then you've now decided to actually take this forward and do something wider and bigger. How did you decide to do that and to do something more with the work that you'd already done?    C.G Well, this has been something that's been set on my mind for two years, but I was really keen that other people should have access to these sort of pieces, from the perspective of particularly Lego Serious Play facilitators, to broaden the representation within their kits. But beyond that, I use Lego mini figure pieces at the start of almost all my workshops, whether or not I'm using Lego Serious Play in order for people to be able to build representations of themselves. What has come out of that is the number of people requesting those pieces and asking where I got them from, because they want access to them. And so over a period of time, it became really clear that people did want these pieces. And so I decided that it was important for these pieces to be on offer, not just for Lego Serious Play facilitators, but for facilitators in general, and if and when individuals want them, for families, for people who are not facilitators, and for youth groups who work with a range of identities in their spaces. And it was hearing from individuals again and again that they wanted access to these pieces that was this sort of catalyst for me moving forward with this and trying to make it happen.   N.W And so how did you decide how you'd approach taking it wider, as it were? I mean, so you said that before you get custom printed figures in the designs that you want, how did you decide to kind of approach taking it wider?   C.G Well, something that has changed over the last few years is Lego has improved the range of pieces that they offer. While they don't always feature in their kits, you can order them directly.    N.W Right.   C.G And so in me being able to access more pieces, it meant there was an opportunity to pull a range of pieces together to make, to make a product, to make something that would be beneficial to groups of people recognizing that these forms of representation shouldn't be separated from the more traditional Lego pieces, but actually should be a core part of those packs. As I say, I don't think we should be adding things on, they should just be the norm. Yeah, and so that was part of how I went about it. I did a lot of research around what pieces were available, and a number of pieces are actually no longer available. I had a number, I have a number of heads, black heads that feature Vitiligo. I can no longer find those on the Lego website. I also came across a piece with a cochlear implant on the hair, I had to order those from a Lego dealer because I could no longer source them directly from Lego. And so there's been a lot of different moving parts, but for me, it was about the research piece and looking at how we could bring the different parts together into something that was accessible for people to be able to purchase, and also gave the opportunity to give kits to youth groups and organisations who potentially wouldn't be able to afford them otherwise.   N.W Okay and so what you're going to be offering is complete kits with this range of different pieces within them to people to purchase and potentially some to for people to get free if they're not able to afford them. Is that? Is that right?   C.G Yeah, so the the business is called Figiverse, and there are curated packs of different size, generally ranging from for groups of 6 to 8, for groups of 14 to 16, for groups of up to 30, that include a range of mini figures, a range of heads and hands, and also different accessories. Other products that are on the market generally offer per one mini figure, one accessory. But really for this to work as a product, you need more than that, because you want people to have the choice in how they represent themselves. And so generally the kit, so for our kit, for 14 to 16 people we have over 100 accessories in that pack so that people really can choose, and they are designed to be used by facilitators. And so they come with a set of base plates so people can present their models. And come, you know, in a carry bag, trying to think about these products from all different angles to make them as usable as possible, and a number of different use cases for facilitators to be able to to use them effectively from the get go.   N.W Okay, great. And so for listeners' benefit, we're actually speaking at the end of November in 2024 how and where have you got to so far with this project?   C.G Great question. Well, so hopefully today, I'll be launching the website, and, broadly speaking, seeing what, what the response is. Ideally we would see in the next few weeks, in the run up to Christmas, what sort of things are popular, and then doing a bigger launch for January, wanting to make sure that we're getting it right in terms of what people want, but also being really clear that these products aren't Perfect. All the elements that we would want represented aren't there, and so over time, keen to improve that range. So while right now in the product development, we have what we can get, we're actually very limited by those things. And I've tried to find ways right now to improve that. So creating flags, like pride flags, for example, to try and represent identities from a range of different perspectives and ways. So those are currently made by me using decal but hopefully moving forward, they would be more professionally developed. So at a very early stage in the whole thing, but trying to work with a good enough mentality to try and get out there.   N.W Okay, and so I was going to ask a bit about what's coming next. Well, obviously, just actually launching the website. And then you said that you've got a kind of bigger launch plans for January. Have you got any particular ideas of what you're going to do with that?   C.G Yeah, I think for me, I would like to really expand what can be offered, primarily because I want to get this into more spaces for more people to be able to access. Right now, you've got the core kits. Other options that I'm looking at are things like office parties, renting a kit, organisations are really keen to move away from alcohol based social events because they're not inclusive, and so using this is a bit of a tool for that, offering rental options. But also if people want to create their models and then keep them also offering things like guest books for weddings, where people want to build themselves as a wedding guest and keep a really wonderful part of their day for them. Also options for things like subscriptions, so facilitators can keep updating the kits that they have, and getting new accessories, and maybe going seasonal accessories. So I think there's a lot of different options that are quite exciting to think about, but again, trying to start with the basics to see, to see what happens really from here.   N.W And do you have any thoughts about how you will kind of prioritize what the next stages of development will be? Because obviously, you've said there's this whole range of options, and you're starting with that kind of good enough core where, how would you decide what to do next with each of those?    C.G Broadly, the next few weeks will dictate a lot of that, where the interest is. At the moment, I haven't gone for kits that are smaller than sort of 6 to 8 people. I've had a lot of interest from parents, from people who look after young people, and so potentially looking at an offer there, but a lot of it is dictated on capacity. At the moment, it's just me roping in a few friends when we can, and also keen to have a look at the sustainability side of things. At the moment, 20% of the kits, up to 20% of the kits are from, include pre-loved Lego pieces, and so we'd love to play around with that, but again, right now, it's seeing what happens now, what the interest level is, and then working with that to try and build products and offers that work for the audiences that we're talking to.   N.W And I guess what you're saying about pre-loved and sustainability part of the issue with that is that a lot of these things don't exist in the pre-loved market at the moment. And so you're, you've maybe got the core kits that are the more easily available pieces, and then I suppose the more that this grows, you've got more chance of being able to get pre-loved pieces. And so, I mean, you've probably hinted at this already, but what are your hopes for the project, and what help do you need to get there?   C.G I think my hopes are that one day, when I take a kit such as this into a group, there'll be no reaction to it, because people will have seen these pieces, they'll be used to seeing all of these pieces in every Lego kit, and that would be my ideal one day. That might be quite far away at this point. But also, I would love for this conversation to keep going, particularly with Lego, to see if there are opportunities to work together or to really look at the range of pieces that they have and how that can be expanded in relation to other forms of identity, particularly beyond racial identity, as I think there's a there is a huge focus on racial identity, but there are also plenty of other identities that aren't represented in lots and lots of different spaces. So having more access to pieces that represent that kind of wide range of identities is really important to me, and so I'd like to keep the conversation going. If people wanted to get involved, it'd be great to have those conversations. Get in touch, join the mailing list, but also, if you're a facilitator and you're looking for something you can bring into your workshops, do think about picking up a kit. They are great for things like introducing people, but also for opening conversations around diversity and representation. I have also used them for things such as building teams. What, how would you build your ideal team? What do each of these people need and look like? And so I think there's a range of things and as I said, representation is a core part of this product. But actually, the reason I developed the product is because it's a really, really great way to open conversations with people that aren't related to representation, and these pieces are just a part of that in the way that all of the other pieces are.   N.W Okay and so if listeners want to know more about this project or about you and your work how can they find you and find the project?   C.G So Figiverse has its own website, which is figiverse.co.uk . I'm also hoping by the time this goes out, that there will be some social media presence. We'll see about that. But you can also find me as an individual. My website's Camillagordon.co.uk , find me on LinkedIn, and would love to chat more and find out from people what they think about this as an idea.   N.W Brilliant. Well, I'm sure there'll be lots of people keen to get in touch and sort of know more about it. Sounds like a great project, and we'll put the links in the show notes as well so that they're easy to find. But thank you so much Camilla, it's been great to chat to you about this.   C.G Great thanks. Nikki. Really appreciate it and excited to be able to share a bit more and a bit further and wider about the project.    N.W Brilliant. We'll be looking forward to hearing more.    C.G Thanks   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at [email protected] .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.

  In this episode Helene talks to Jane Clift about her role as the Chair of IAF England and Wales. They talk about: How Jane got involved with the IAF and the facilitation community "the game changer for me was coming to my first IAF conference,I had never met so many people interested in facilitation" How Jane became the Chair of IAF England and Wales Highlights and challenges since becoming the Chair  The importance of the IAF and community events "I think there's been a recognition in our chapter, in our community, we can all learn from each other."  And future plans for both the IAF England and Wales chapter and Jane A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-clift/ Email: [email protected]  To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and today I'm going to be talking to Jane Clift, consultant, coach and facilitator and Chair of IAF England and Wales. Welcome Jane.   J.C Thank you very much, Helen. I'm very happy to be here.   H.J So I've got lots of questions for you, mostly about your role as chair, but before we do that, it'd be really nice to hear a little bit more about you as a facilitator and the type of work that you do.   J.C Very good opening question there. So I have facilitated in quite a wide range of contexts, and I think I was doing it before I knew it was called facilitation. So I'm currently have my own business, but I've also worked a great deal for organisations, originally in sort of technology and consulting roles. So I think I was setting up and running workshops well before I knew that there was a term called facilitator, or that facilitation was a thing. So I would say that my practice started very, very organically, very organically. It's   H.J It's funny, if I listen back to all the different podcasts we've done, we've done, I would say that that kind of thing is a real thread through all of them that people have kind of come into facilitation accidentally, organically, or discovered that it is called facilitation after they began doing it in the first place.    J.C Exactly, yeah, something that I've also, I've always really loved stationery and stationery shops, like I really, really enjoy going into rymans and places like that. So obviously, when you're working as a facilitator, you have got the best reason in the world to be stocking up on colourful stationery craft materials. So there's something about that aspect of it that I don't know,  just I've always really, really liked that idea of bringing, like, colourful stationery or objects into the workplace and having a reason to use them. And that reason is facilitation.    H.J I love it. That's a great reason. I am also a self confessed stationery nerd, so I totally, I'm totally on board with that. Is there a particular type of facilitation that you enjoy doing, or that you feel is your kind of forte? J.C So I've done a lot of facilitation around agreeing, like a strategy or a road map, or like, identifying things that are getting in the way. So one of the areas that I've actually facilitated on quite a lot is risk management, which is really an important topic if you're doing large scale programs or projects, which I've done quite a lot of in my career. So I actually really like that as a topic, whether you do that in person or online. I have done quite a lot of those workshops where you end up with a room covered in pieces of paper, covered in sticky, you know, in post its and so forth. But during lockdown, like many people, I became very adept at online facilitation, and that's probably the space that I've worked in the most over the last few years, and I, I really, really like that, and I'm amazed that it works, because you're connecting up people that can be all over the world, and you're just in this virtual space, and yet you can, you can make magic happen if you can facilitate it well, and I find that an incredible and unexpected gift that came out of lockdown. Having said that, there is nothing like the energy of being in a room with people. I also absolutely love that I had the great pleasure of being facilitated myself recently, large scale workshop, 30 of us in a room, all talking about something, and it was just so much fun. So I'm not sure I've really got a niche. I'm quite a versatile person, but I tend to be better with topics that are a little bit more creative or future oriented, or that are kind of attached to something that's happening right now. Hence the interesting risk.    H.J Ah, interesting, okay, and it's, yeah, also good hearing about that adaptability, which I think also flows through a lot of facilitators, practice or facilitation, and yeah, that whole movement online. I think it is amazing sometimes, as you say, to think how people can be connected online, but somehow, well, it's not somehow the magic happens. It's because we're brilliant facilitators.   J.C It is because we're brilliant facilitators and we can create a safe and a fun space. It's, it is incredible, and it's also something that you almost don't realise that you have a gift for until you get that feedback. Oh, that was great workshop. Oh, we made, you know, we made progress, or I felt I could speak up. During the lockdown, I volunteered as a facilitator for action for happiness, and I ran a monthly session, and each month we get to, oh, I've got to do that session again. Oh, like an hour and a half, and I go into it, and I had a co facilitator, and we'd be part way through the session, and the magic would start to happen. And you could feel, because lockdown was a very tough time for many people, and you could feel the magic of facilitation happen. You could feel people relax, open up, and at the end of the session, we'd always do this check in, and everybody without exception, every single one of those sessions we ran, people said, Oh, I feel better. All my energy levels have lifted, or I feel relaxed. And I just thought, wow.   H.J Yeah. And you get that real kind of lovely feeling in your body where you think, oh, yeah, this, this is, this is good. This is why I do this. Okay. And so you talk about, you know, your work, and then sort of almost discovering, I guess, that you are a facilitator, or that that's the thing that you can call what you do. When did you get more involved in the kind of the facilitation community and the IAF in particular. J.C So like many people who facilitate, I had been doing quite a lot of facilitation, without much formal training or orientation and without any awareness there was a facilitation community. So what kind of got me into the IAF was I, I'd been doing some team, like away day workshop, and I had, this is classic me, by the way, I kind of reinvented the wheel, not realising that there were lots of methods out there and and like ways of doing things. And after I did this workshop and probably kind of gave it far too much effort, I thought I actually need to get learn some technique here. I've got the interest, I've got the motivation, I've got the aptitude. I haven't got enough technique. So I went and did some training with ICA UK. I did, I think that their group facilitation skills course. And I think the trainer was Martin Gilbraith, who, at the time, I think, was very much a leading light in the IAF. And I joined the IAF, and then I kind of washed in and out of it a little bit. And when I started to get more involved was at one of the London meetups. That's, I think, when I started to become more actively involved. Realised it was a community. Realised that you could come gather, meet other people who facilitate and talk about facilitation. Wow, amazing, it's a thing.   H.J A big network of geeks where we get to talk about all of these tools and techniques and stuff and stationery, probably. And so you discovered, I guess then this community, what kind of drew you in more, what kept you going to, you know, maybe the London meetups or ?    J.C I really like, I like being part of communities. So even though I have my own business, I do like to collaborate with other people. I do like to be connected to other people. It's quite important for me. So there's quite a lot of community attached to coaching, which is another area I'm involved with. And I think once I identified there was community attached to facilitation, I was just interested in finding out more. And the meetups were definitely really good for that. And then the game changer for me was coming to my first IAF conference. I don't think I'd ever met, I had never met so many people interested in facilitation, all in one space. And also the diversity of practice was really, really, it was really inspirational for me. I had been toying with some more creative practices, not necessarily having the confidence to implement them. And at that conference, I saw people that were just going, you know, all in on their more creative facilitation practices. And I was like, wow. So I think it was that very first conference which really said, thought, these are my people, these are my tribes. We're all different from each other, and yet we've got this thing in common. And so it was the creative thing, a kind of curiosity about people, and I think another common thread was this desire to, desire to make an impact in the world, but in quite a practical way.   H.J It does, I recognize that feeling of finding your people and just feeling really comfortable in a space, whether that's a meetup or something bigger, like the conference, and just thinking, oh yeah, people get what I'm talking about. And, yeah, that, yeah, making a difference I think is, is part of that, isn't it? How can we spread the word a bit? How can we share our, share our inner geekery, our love with other people? Okay, so pulling you further in, then you've been chair for the last couple of years, since January 2022, I think. And so how did that happen?    J.C Well, I have to say I wanted to get more involved in the IAF, and I think I stood for the board, and I guess I didn't intend to be chair, but I'm one of those people who I think it's called situational leadership. I don't choose to be a leader unless I feel in a context I am the best person to be that leader. So so I don't have, I don't have a burning desire every day to lead, but when I'm in a situation where I think in this context, I'm the best person to lead in order for us to get a good result, that's when I get involved. So that's I think, in with that group, when I became, when I joined the board and joined the leadership team, I was, I felt I was the best person, or the one who had had the capacity and the willingness. There was plenty of other people who had the expertise to do it, but I had the capacity and the expertise and the motivation to be the chair. So that's why I became the Chair. And it's been incredible, incredibly interesting thing to have done.    H.J So that's interesting, that kind of sweet spot of having all those things come together at once, as you say, the capacity and the sort of, you know, the space and the skills to actually do that. And so thinking the responsibilities is quite a it's a big deal being the chair, especially of, you know, a group of people that are all volunteers all coming together, you know, all sort of, all having their own day jobs as well. What have been your main kind of responsibilities, I suppose, as a chair, knowing a little bit about having done the role already?   J.C So the responsibilities are quite varied. The way I've worked as the chair is, there's a lot of structuring of the leadership group so that we can work effectively. So I guess there's an administrative element to it, and there's also an aspect to it where you're trying to move things forward in what you feel is the general direction that the group is interested in, whilst being mindful of the fact that everybody is indeed volunteering their time, and that, you know, it's a volunteer organisation, with fairly sort of Slim, slim but stable financial capacity. So it's it's been, for me, about like moving us forward, taking us further away from that sort of post COVID environment, where I think many organisations, you know, they had to get back on their feet, and I think you had steered the leadership team beautifully through the incredible challenges of lockdown. And I think I've been able to pick up from where you left off, continue the great work. And I think move us into an even, you know, into a stronger position. And definitely, I feel we've fully recovered from lockdown now, and I think evolved somewhat as well in some really, like, great, sort of great directions.   And I think we've also, and I've done this quite frequently when I've been in leadership roles, is I've tried to sort of streamline. And so sometimes with all organisations, particularly ones where a lot of people are very ideasy, you can spread yourselves too thinly, you can chase hairs, you can have an inconsistent practice because you're trying to do too much because you've got so many ideas. So I think one of the responsibilities of the chair is to sort of say, yes, these are all brilliant ideas, but where, where do we feel we can really make the most difference? Where should we? Where should we focus our energies to have the greatest impact? So that's definitely one of the, one of the responsibilities of the Chair is to sort of provide that, that leadership to, but to, you know, to acknowledge all the great ideas, but just to say, right what are we actually capable of doing as a leadership team, as an organisation, given it's entirely volunteer led.   H.J And especially maybe with a group of facilitators, you know, we do tend to like ideas, don't we? We've got all sorts of, you know, things that we think should happen and could happen, and so I guess containing them then and making sure that, yeah, some are driven forward, some aren't lost, and people are still on board with with all of what's going on is definitely quite a challenge. And thinking, also back to my time as chair, it felt like that was a period of, as you say, in COVID, treading water, just making sure that things sort of carried on really but definitely your era has been much more of a moving forwards, progressing, improving things, I think. Thinking then about highlights, I suppose, things that have really stood out for you, things that have gone really well. What are those?    J.C The highlights for me, from my time as chair the sort of the red carpet event every year is our conference. It's so much fun. It is two days of learning, connecting, getting totally out of your comfort zone, talking about facilitation, meeting your community, making friends, being grateful, thanking everybody for all that they're doing. So the two conferences in the time that I've been chair, they've both been really, really wonderful events for me, and I am so grateful for being part of them, even though, as Chair, I'm actually quite second hand to the conference because it's organised by a different group. But when I'm there at the conference, I have felt this is such a celebration of facilitation, it really is. And I've also been really pleased I've brought new people to the conference and introduced people to the leadership team and so forth. So that's the red carpet events.    I've absolutely, also really loved our leadership away days. And in fact, can you just describe them different? Yes, we're calling them retreats now. I also love, yes, our leadership retreat. So they've been absolutely wonderful events as well. And I remember thinking, Oh, I'm going to be facilitating facilitators, uh oh. So I remember that was thinking that was quite the challenge. And yet, you know, I think we've, I think I've been involved now in three of the retreats, and I think they've all, they've all gone well, and I've learned a lot about facilitation from, from running those, from designing those sessions, and from also witnessing people in our leadership team facilitating sessions within the session. So they've been really wonderful as well. And I guess I do love the in person activities, like I do love being in a room or a space with other people, so any opportunity to do that has been great, and I think inspired by meetups that I went to in London, I'm now based in Sheffield, and I've also kicked off like a facilitate Sheffield group. I'm not sure I would have done that had I not had the experience of being a chair. I've just realised sometimes it's just like, shall we do this? Shall we try and get something moving? And that's been really interesting as well, that sometimes you've just got to have a go.    H.J Oh, that's interesting. That the Sheffield meetup sort of grew out of your position as Chair, if you like. It's interesting thinking about that facilitating, facilitators bits? I totally Yeah, that really makes sense to me. That whole, you know, you, it's really good to see other people and experience other people's facilitation, but at the same time, I think possibly we are the worst participants, but it is nice to kind of get together and have that, have that all sharing of how we do things as well. I think it's quite inspirational.   J.C It's really, really inspirational for me. I find the diversity of people's practice, of their life experiences, the fact that people come from different parts of the UK, and we've all converged, actually, I think it's been in Manchester or Birmingham. So we've kind of all come together. I find that very, very interesting. And everyone's paths into facilitation have been quite different. So so for me, I kind of find those sessions are very opening up, and afterwards I go away and I've learned something that's often quite significant for me and I've then carried forward with me. So I'm not going to those sessions and think I'm going to boss everyone around. It's been, they're very collaborative.   H.J Definitely. No, that's been my experience as well, that feeling of collaboration. So what's changed, you know, quite a lot, probably in your time as chair, from this period of, you know, COVID, where things weren't moving forwards very much perhaps. What are the main changes you think you've seen in the last couple of years with the IAF England and Wales leadership team and board, but maybe beyond that as well?    J.C So there's been quite a lot of changes. I think facilitation itself as a sort of professional and area of expertise is more understood, known, celebrated and in demand than it's ever been. That's quite interesting. I think in the time I've been chair, I'm, I have a tendency to want to structure things, so I probably have brought in some structure more, perhaps some more structure than there was previously. And I've, as I said, maybe done some of that streamlining activity. And I think everybody that I know in IAF England and Wales is really keen to, you know, expand our community, welcome more people in ,work on the diversity. I think that we are slowly becoming more diverse. We acknowledge that there's a lot more to do in that space, but there's a sort of appetite and a sort of momentum around that now, we're not just talking about it, we're doing something about it. So, for example, most of the leadership team have now taken part in anti racism training, which is, you know, really, really important. So I think perhaps we were a little bit more focused than we were.    The other thing that I think changed is, and I think you 100% laid the foundations for this. I think we are more tightly or better aligned with the EME region for IAF. So I've participated in our, the regional like leadership team meetings, and they've been very interesting. And I think there's been a recognition in our chapter, in our community, we can all learn from each other. And when we've had people come to the conference from other other chapters that survive other geographies that's been really, really interesting and inspirational. So we can, we can learn so much from each other. And we've also, I think also we as a chapter have been able to do a little bit of support for other chapters as well. So that's been really great, too. So I guess I'm just trying to summarise what's changed. So I think a little bit more structure and focus, and also, yes, totally recovered from COVID and the lockdown era, and I'm feeling we probably contracted a little bit during that time period, as many organisations did, I feel we're now expanding.   H.J It's really interesting that Europe and Middle East Regional link as well, because I personally really value that diversity and looking outside, you know, our chapter, and seeing what other chapters are do, are doing, and, yeah, forging those links is a really, really nice thing to be doing I think.   J.C It's a wonderful opportunity. One of the things when we hear, it's easy to look at the news and think, Oh, so many bad, bad, dark things happening in the world. What I find is when you connect with people from other geographies, other cultures, when you form those links, when you extend your community, it just makes all those bad news stories, they seem a little less important, because on a very practical, like, I don't know, day to day basis, or you kind of you're ignoring all that. You're reaching out and saying, no, there is, there are, It is worth doing this stuff. It is worth connecting. It is worth still believing that we can change things through our facilitation practice. You know, I just, I like the aspect of it. I find, actually find this, I find this idea of being part of a global community, I find it very optimistic and positive.    H.J It's almost quite, quite a skill, I think, to be able to find that optimism. Because, as you say, you know, there's a lot of doom and gloom around but I really like that way of thinking about things. Find the kind of the good stuff in, you know, all that's going on around us. Okay, and then flipping that on its head, however, with any role, with any you know group such as we are, there will have been challenges. What have been the main challenges? In a few minutes?   J.C So one of the challenges has been my own time. So I have my own business. Sometimes I'm working full time, and then I'm supporting this activity in my free time. So that's been a personal challenge for me. The other personal challenge for me is with my desire for structure and focus, I've had to really temper that, because I have had to learn, and it's been really, really good for me, that we've got to let the ideas flow. We, people need that space to let the ideas flow, to connect. We can't, I've got a tendency to go straight into right what are we all going to do? Action, action, action. And that doesn't work with this community, because that, they that's not how this community operates. So it's been, for me that's been a tremendous learning curve, and I am now much, much more respectful and aware of that need to sort of have a lot more flow before you sort of, so that's been, that's been, as I said, it's been that's been quite challenging for me. And. And then, equally, it's also challenging that with the best one in the world, we are all volunteers, and everybody's time, you know, time constrained, or they have things going on in their personal lives which may inhibit their ability to do things, even if they're highly motivated to do that. And we are trying to be smart about this now, work at how we can outsource some of the more rote activities to to, like virtual assistance, so that we can, almost, like, use our time in a more clever and a smart way. And what I'm thinking, what are the other challenges have been? Well, it's always, you know, I think this is something we all suffer from, is, and I'm the, I'm also guilty of it is, is trying to do too much.   H.J And it's, I think, that bit about us all being, you know, we're all all volunteers. We're all doing this in our own time. We're all doing it because we are invested in our community, and we want it to be better, and we want more things from it, and we want it to still be the fantastic thing it is. But actually, you know, there's only so many hours in a day, and and then finding that time to do that, and the energy, and then collaborating and coordinating, coordinating that with with a whole heap of other people all around the country is, you know, it's definitely not an easy task.   J.C It's not easy at all. And I think at one point I was trying to, sort of almost like fly solo too much, and doing too much on my own. And then this year I've been really busy. And I, it was actually, this is a kind of a sort of, you know, people make New Year's decisions. So one of my decisions for 2024 was whatever I'm trying to do in life, I want to do that in collaboration with others. So I've been a much more collaborative leader in 2024 for our chapter, and I think that's been really beneficial for the chapter. So rather than thinking, I can, I'll do all this stuff on my lonesome, I've actually asked people to come in with me, and I think that's been much more successful for the chapter and for me, and again, it's another sort of smart way of working and sort of not being that kind of lonely leader marching up the mountain on their own. It's much better if you are, if you're doing stuff in small groups or with a partner. So that's just been a personal learning for me and a decision and a change of a change, like a change of sort of operation.   H.J So it sounds like there's been quite a lot of learning, you know, over the last couple of years for you as chair and probably for all of us as the leadership team as well. Thinking then about, you know, all that hard work that goes into making this stuff happen, and the IAF leadership team and the, you know, England, Wales, and the wider community, what do you think that that we kind of bring to people, you know, what? What's, what do people get from it?   J.C I think the most important thing that we offer is community. I think, I think many people who work in the facilitation space, I don't know if it's solo entrepreneurs, you know, or small businesses, and I think creating a community that's actually really easy to connect to, you can be in our community, don't have to be a member. You know, many people aren't members. It doesn't matter. The important thing is that there's a community that you can be part of, and we offer different ways of connecting. We have our online meetups, we have in person meetups, we have our conference and then I think what I've I've seen happen which is a very beautiful thing to witness. I have seen people who I know have only met through the conference or through the community start to do collaborations together, which shows you that these relationships are really, really building and developing and supporting people professionally. So I think that community thing is, we never did anything else, that's that's, for me, is the most important thing.    But the second thing, I think, is really important, is sharing practice and acknowledging when we see good work and supporting practice. And it can be really something quite practical like, has anyone done this type of thing? Can you recommend an exercise to do this? How do you price something so, so it can be, like the very practical things, but it can also be, I mean, at the conference, quite a lot of people will showcase something that perhaps they're still working on, in terms of offering it out to clients. It's a place where you can do some experimentation. I think that's just, I feel we are very much a community of practice, and I just think that's another huge benefit to all of not just the paid up members, but everybody in our community that we can support each other to develop practice, and we can learn from each other's practices.    H.J And it feels like that community, or our community, is growing all the time, and the more it grows, the more you discover new things. And you think, Oh, I didn't realise that was a thing that's interesting. I want to know more about that. And like, it doesn't seem that there are any edges to facilitation most. It's like just a constantly changing picture, which for me is someone who's got a fairly short attention span, I think is great. Always like, Oh, I've found something new to do, to learn about. So what do you think, then, is next for IAF, England, Wales and the broader community, whether members or, you know, not members.    J.C We've done quite a lot of work on, like, quite futuristic visioning, and I think we slightly rode back from that, because it almost became something that was inhibiting our more immediate development and growth. So I quite like the fact that we've been a little bit more realistic about our capacity. And we've kind of, we're focusing on a few things we want to do really well. So one of them is this wonderful podcast that I'm on today.   H.J Of course.   J.C  We want to support all of our meetups, online and in person. We want the conference to be a great success, I think, we, we obviously want to continuing offering this. It's very hard to sometimes crystallise it, but this informal kind of community support. I think, where I think there's potential is I think we could actually promote ourselves or promote the practice of facilitation more on social media, and perhaps be more structured about that. I would really like to use the, we have the IAF Global website, which is currently being updated. I would like to see that also used as a vehicle to promote, share, practice and support the community. I feel there's quite a lot of things we can do around diversity and also connecting up with our global community. So these are some of the things I find interesting and exciting, and I feel we could do more in these spaces, we could perhaps do more to support other chapters in our region as well. So there's some of the topics, I think, Oh, that's interesting. I feel my energy rising when I think about that. So there's quite a lot of opportunities. And it's just there's, again, there's so many opportunities and ideas, and there's only so much time and so much money at the bank. So so I think lots of opportunities, but we have to take a realistic perspective on it as well.   H.J Opportunities tempered with a bit of fear, bit of can we actually do this stuff? And your time as chair is coming to an end at the end of this year, I think. So what's next for you? What are you going to do with all those spare hours?   J.C So I have really, even though it's been very challenging and time consuming and sometimes frustrating, I've absolutely loved the opportunity to be a situational or servant leader for this chapter. It's been a wonderful opportunity for me. It's reconnected me with a lot of leadership practice that I hadn't really done for a little while. So so I'm really keen to stay involved with our chapter and stay on the leadership team and support a new chair, whoever that will be in 2025. I also want to continue developing my own facilitation practice. And I think the thing that's come out of it for me, there's two things, one more opportunity to do leadership in life, and I'm pretty confident I want to replace, replace, I'm definitely going to be pursuing, probably a trusteeship with another organisation as I think that's a really nice segue from from what I've done here, but a slightly different way of doing that. So I like to be busy, and I, I like to serve. I don't want to say be too idealistic and optimistic, but there is something wonderful about feeling that you are doing some good public service, or some good service for others without it being a huge strain on yourself. It's really good to know that you are committing some personal time to some activities, which we hope are going to do good in the world.   H.J Thank you so much for talking to me today. I've just got one last question, and that is, how can we get in touch with you? So if people want to talk more to you, what, how should we get in touch with you?   J.C The easiest way to get hold of me is via LinkedIn. I've got a LinkedIn profile and I'm on LinkedIn very frequently. That's guaranteed. And you can also reach me by the email address for the chair.   H.J We'll put any contact emails and your LinkedIn link in the show notes afterwards.    J.C Brilliant.    H.J Thank you so much, Jane, and I will see you soon.    J.C Thank you very much. What a wonderful opportunity to be interviewed by you. Thank you so much Helen.    H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at [email protected] .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

In this episode Helene talks to Cath about her role as Senior Engagement Advisor and internal facilitator with the Environment Agency (EA) Cath tells Helene a bit about the EA and the type of work they do. She explains how her role as Engagement Advisor includes facilitation and also how she works an an independent internal facilitator for other projects withing the EA. Cath gives some examples of what she really enjoys about her role as a faciliator including working with the public on a climate adaptation project and working alongside external independent facilitators that the EA also use. She explains that external faciliatators are often used when more complex conversations need to be had, or where there has been a breakdown of trust and someone independent is needed. She shares some insights as to how the internal facilitators network of aroudn 200 facilitators was set up and how she balances her work as Senior Engagement Advisor and facilitator.  She tells Helene about a role play technique that really made a difference and about how asking good questions are crucial to her work as a faciliator. Cath also talks about how she keeps her faciliation skills up including attending the IAF England and Wales conferences, and local IAF meetups and EA facilitator learning days. She also shares some advice for other internal facilitators.  A full transcript is below. Today's Guest Environment Agency - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) [email protected]   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter   Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/   And to email us: [email protected]   IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team  Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and my guest today is Cath Brooks, senior engagement advisor with the Environment Agency. Welcome, Cath    C.B Hi, yeah. Hi. How are you doing? Alright?   H.J I'm good. How are you?    C.B Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm Looking forward to it.   H.J It's really good to have you on the podcast. Okay, so I have a whole load of questions to ask you, starting with the Environment Agency. I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about what the Environment Agency does and what your role is?   C.B Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I hope that it'll inspire people. I've worked at the Environment Agency for almost 20 years, and I still absolutely love it. It's a great organisation. So we're a public sector organisation, and we aim, quite simply, to protect and improve the environment. We employ about 12,000 people, and some people work nationally across England, and then some people work in area offices. We've got 14 different area offices across England, so you either work on national issues or you work on local issues in one of our area offices. And I guess to create places for people and wildlife, we work on quite a lot of topics that people are deeply concerned about, and finding ways forward can be difficult on some of the issues, people have strong opinions about the environment and how we should be managing the environment quite rightly. So Facilitation skills are really important in that context, with some of the really difficult issues that we're managing. So some of those topics are things like managing major industry, making sure they're not polluting the environment, and waste, dealing with contaminated land, making sure water quality of our rivers and we've got enough water so water resources as well, working on fisheries, conservation and ecology, and my area that I work on is management of flood risk. So those sorts of issues are really interesting, and people have strong opinions about how we should be managing those issues. So there can be quite a lot of conflict, I guess, which is why facilitation is so important.   H.J And so then, obviously that's quite a broad even under the umbrella of the environment, that's quite a broad range of different areas, and in your particular area then, in your role as senior engagement advisor, what does that actually involve? Sort of before, obviously, I guess facilitation is part of that, but I know you also do it sort of separately as well. What does your main role? What does your main role involve?   C.B Yeah, so we've got engagement advisors. Obviously, the organisation's quite technical organisation, quite science and engineering led, but we also have engagement and communications experts within the Environment Agency, and I'm one of those. So I work alongside quite technical teams, and at the moment I'm working, I've worked in lots of different parts of the organisation, but at the moment I'm working in flood risk management, supporting our teams. I work nationally, and so supporting our national teams with big projects where there's, they're difficult topics, where people have strong opinions. And my job, my main job, is engagement planning. So we're whatever the project is thinking about what are our engagement aims? Why do we want to work with our stakeholders? Why do they want to work with us, making sure we're not just thinking from the perspective of the Environment Agency, my job is to help our staff to think about the impact it's going to have on on a range of stakeholders, and plan the best methods that we can for that particular project to work out, how can we get the best from our stakeholders? How can they get the best of us? How can we find solutions that work for all of us, not just for the Environment Agency?    So we try to avoid taking what we've called in the past the 'decide, announce, defend approach'. My job is to help staff to be more, to sort of take a more 'engage, deliberate, decide', so to help have quality conversations about these difficult issues, really listen to our stakeholders, designing the right methods, really to help create that space for those quality conversations about what can be really difficult issues. And that's my job, is designing those sorts of engagement methods, if you like, and then facilitation sits really nicely alongside that.    H.J And so when you do that facilitation, I as far as I understand, you're part of an internal facilitators network. How, how did that kind of come about? When was that set up?    C.B Yeah, that's right. So when I joined the Environment Agency, back in 1996 we didn't have many people who worked in engagement roles or facilitation network. So we started really by setting up the engagement roles and setting up training for staff around comms and engagement and how to do that engagement planning like I've just talked about. And very quickly we realised actually there's another set of skills that that we need to develop as well, which is facilitation. So when you are designing methods that involve dialog, you know having facilitation skills, having skills to be able to design those interactive sessions in a way that you're making the most of that time when you've got your stakeholders in the room is really important. And it's quite a different skill, actually, than just engagement planning, being able to design a face to face or an online session where you've got people in the room making the very best of that time. So we're all really busy. Our staff are busy, our stakeholders are busy. So making the most of those opportunities, that's why we developed the facilitation skills courses.    So first of all, we started off by getting some expert engagement professionals in to help us design facilitation courses that were for in-house facilitators. And then very quickly, and within about 18 months, we realised that people were going on the training, really enjoying the training, but then struggling to apply the training in their day jobs, because, you know, you could go a couple of months and not use it. And we very quickly realised that if you're going to facilitate, and you have to do it quickly, you have to do it very often, and you need, you need to support each other. So we set the network up to give people safe space to be able to facilitate internally. So to develop people's skills and create opportunities to be able to facilitate not in your day job. So that's why the network was set up, was to, so people could put forward a facilitation request and get someone who wasn't their day job, they went and practised their skill outside their day job, which, which means you can facilitate in a more pure way which was, which has been fantastic. It's, it's worked really well.   H.J And I want to ask a little bit more about that, actually. But before I do, I just wanted to pick up on the differences between engagement and facilitation, and where you see the differences being?   C.B yeah, I do think they're quite different skills. So I think being able to do good engagement planning across a project, you think we've got big projects that might go on for years, and they're quite technical. You need to understand the, you know, the technical context of that bit of work, what the business objectives are, what the engagement objectives are, what best methods we can apply, you know, to help people to engage with us, and for that to have an impact on on the decision making, that's quite different. You could do that, and then you can realise in that process, there's usually going to have to be some kind of series of face to face events. But the person doing that engagement planning might not necessarily have this skill to be able to run that face to face content, and sometimes actually, we do need a completely independent facilitator.    So there might be a topic where we might have lost trust with some of our stakeholders, where it's not appropriate for the Environment Agency to facilitate those conversations and we do need an independent facilitator. And that is whether it's an in-house facilitator and an independent facilitator, being able to design that's more in depth, designing how to make the most of the conversation, how to create a space where people feel safe, to be able to air their concerns and feel listened to. I guess it's like engagement planning, but it's really specifically thinking about that particular conversation and what you want to get out of that conversation. So it's micro design, I guess, within a particular moment in time, and you might use that facilitator, or you might use a facilitator that then exits the process, whereas the engagement person stays throughout and they use the results of that conversation, and they kind of have to carry on, whereas a facilitator might just come in for that particular moment, then they might not be involved again. So they are quite different skills.   H.J And so what determines how you choose a particular facilitator, be it an in-house one or an external facilitator. How does that process work?    C.B Yeah, so we'd use an in-house facilitator for a process where, so quite often the engagement person needs to be, needs to participate in the conversation. And if the engagement person involved in that bit of work needs to be involved in the conversation, then they'd use an in-house facilitator to help make sure that, you know, they just come in, offer the service, create the space so that everyone in the team can participate. And often there's other people outside the team, you know, other stakeholders and things. And if the topic is not too controversial, it's all to do with positionality and trust and the way the Environment Agency is viewed. If there's good trust and good relationships between all the people, then an in-house facilitator can do that role. When I'm doing that, I upfront say, I work for the Environment Agency, but I'm not here today as someone who works in the Environment Agency, I'm here to facilitate and make sure you're heard. I'd work with all the different stakeholders before to make sure that the design was taken their, you know, that their needs into account. I wouldn't just turn up on the day, so do all the things that an independent facilitator.   Obviously, we're a public sector organisation, so it has to make the most out of me as a facilitator and engagement expert. So I try and do that as much as possible. I'd only use an independent facilitator, which obviously costs us money as an organisation. We'd only do that in a situation where we genuinely needed that independence, and lots of reasons for that, but normally it's to do with trust and transparency and making sure that, you know, there might be awkward situations where things might have gone wrong in the past, and stakeholders would feel more comfortable if someone independent is facilitating, even just for a small period of time, just to help us through that.    H.J And how many facilitators have you got as part of your network then?    C.B Yeah, I knew you were going to ask, I think there's about 200 at the moment on the facilitation network.   H.J Wow. Okay, and how do you manage that kind of balance of work in your, let's say, day job, versus facilitating for a different, a different project that you're not part of then?   C.B Yeah so for me, I mean, we all do it differently. So we're allowed 11 development days a year. And so I use those Development Days aren't just, you just, don't just go on training courses and things. I use my Development Days to do independent facilitation for other people within the environment agency. So each quarter I have a maybe do one event per quarter for someone else, if it's a chunky event, because you need to do the planning for them, you need to facilitate and then help them with the results. So I think we all do that. We view it as part of our development, and we, you know, discuss it with our line managers and carve out time to go and do it. It's completely up to each individual facilitator to decide, and we have peaks and troughs in our work. If you're working on a project that had a lot of facilitation within that project, then you might not do any facilitation for anyone else in that quarter. But yeah, generally, people use their development time.   H.J Okay. And what kind of facilitation do you particularly enjoy?    C.B My favourite thing I've done in the last 12 months was when we were at the River Severn, when we did, when I have opportunities to facilitate with members of the public who are not part of the Environment Agency. And I was really fortunate, we were sort of testing a new methodology on the River Severn about adaptation pathways, they're called, so thinking about climate change and the impact of climate change, and we did something called Community panels, where we got members of the community. So an independent facilitator designed the process and needed some sort of support facilitators, and I acted as a support facilitator, and that was really, really fun. It's just a real privilege to be able to hear from members of the public who don't know anything about what the Environment Agency does, and yeah, to help them to have conversations about the environment and flood risk management, and their ideas were absolutely brilliant and really refreshing to hear. And that was, that was great, because most of my work is either internal or with partners that know the Environment Agency well. So that was something that was different for me and really stretched me as a facilitator, bringing together people that didn't know each other. We were doing it online, and, you know, I didn't know them, and it was, yeah, it was helping them to feel relaxed very quickly and heard, that was, that was really good. It was good for me as a facilitator. Good stretch.    H.J Nice and how often, I guess, do you get to do something a little bit stretchy? Let's say that you actually learn from rather than, let's say a bit more day to day type stuff?   C.B Probably only a couple of times a year, because it did take up quite a lot of time. It was four evenings and a whole day on a Saturday. So that's quite unique. But again, very much supported by the organisation, and was viewed as part of my development. And it was, it was a brilliant part of my development. It really blew the cobwebs off in terms of my facilitation skills. Took me out of my comfort zone, and it was really good. And I guess it would be easy not to do things like that, and it would be, you know, easier just to kind of do the day job. But where's the fun in that? You know, it really, it really helped me, and I took a lot from it back to the day job, and it reminded me about the importance of making sure people are comfortable and active listening. And it was good for me to hear how people view the Environment Agency, who don't know much about what we do. And so, you know, they came up with these brilliant ideas. Like, as an engagement person, I was able to come back in and sort of talk to people about so. But realistically, yeah, time wise, probably once or twice a year.   H.J And how easy is it for you then to kind of just thinking about that there's different hats that you wear. How easy is it to be sort of, you know, independent facilitator versus engagement professional, and, you know, to kind of remember which hat you're wearing, I guess?    C.B Yeah, it can be hard. I think when you're, we get quite embedded in the projects that we're working on. So I'm working on one really big project at the moment, and, you know, you have weekly calls within the technical team, and you become part of that technical team, and that's where it becomes hard to add value I think. When you're fresh and you go into a team, that's when you know you can sort of challenge in a really constructive way. So I think we just, yeah, I just I do, I need to have reflective conversations with people on a regular basis. So my manager is brilliant for that. She's quite sharp, she's really useful for me and sort of challenging me and making sure that I am still doing the job and not sort of just blending into that technical team.Because facilitators and consultants, the benefit of using independent facilitators is that they challenge on our cultural assumptions, and we have got a lot of cultural assumptions, and we do make a lot of decisions, which means that we probably sometimes can push engagement down the track a bit further than we should. So yeah, so that's it's difficult, but yeah, using, using my manager and and also independent facilitators, that's where they can really add value. I think when we're using them on projects, it's really having really useful conversations with independent facilitators about what I'm working on, and they can give really good advice and just keep you remembering about how to challenge teams in a constructive way. But it is quite tiring. I'm not part of that team. I am there to challenge constructively, and it, yeah, can be tiring, but it's,  you do get a lot of rewards as well from it, but you're not part of that team. And that's, I guess that's a bit like what it's like as a consultant, is that you're not, you're not fully part of that team. You're there to kind of help them as a team, to work well together, but not necessarily be embedded within that team.    H.J Which definitely has its pros and cons. So thinking about then, the kind of the learning, the development, the support that you have to work as a facilitator, what kind of opportunities? I know you said you have your development days, and that you use those to do facilitation. But what else are you able to do to kind of keep your skills up and to learn more?    C.B So we get together as a network, so we have network learning days. So we've got one next Monday, so we run those about every six months where we get the whole network together face to face. We have network days more locally, like we, me and you run one in Bristol, which is really good. And the thing I love about the Bristol one that we do with the International Association of Facilitators is it's so refreshing for the Environment Agency, half the people that come are from the Environment Agency, and half the people that come are just independent facilitators doing all sorts of facilitation across all sorts of sectors, charity sectors, you know, finance sectors all around the world. You know, some of them work in Africa and all sorts of different places. And it's really exciting meeting, and really, really good for us to to be challenged and meet people that are doing facilitation in other places, and they you know that those days are brilliant, and although only a couple of hours, probably learn more in a couple of hours than you could learn, you know, in a whole day online and things and just little conversations and testimonials and, you know, different methods that people are testing out and what's gone wrong and what's worked well. That works really well.    And the two day conference that the IAF run in April. So I went to the, I went to that for the first time two years ago, and I went last year as well. And then every year I'm bringing more and more people from the Environment Agency, because that's when I learn the most in the year is just immersing yourself in two days of just learning sessions and being exposed to people that are facilitating in really different contexts. But there's so much that we can learn from each other. So yeah, and just techniques that you just wouldn't even dream of, I just techniques that I wouldn't even dream of, you know, like last time I went, there was an amazing session about using your body and not talking, but just how you can just facilitate using movement and using your body and help with conflict resolution and different difficult conversations with people just using your body. It sounds really strange, but it was really amazing. It's really interesting.   H.J I guess it's the same for for any of us that facilitate, we tend to do our particular thing, or even if you're an external independent facilitator, and even if you work across different sectors, you can get a little bit stuck in your own, you know, you have your preferred tools and techniques, and you use them again and again. And so any of those kind of days, you know, for me, definitely I learned so much and been to so many sessions where I think, oh, yeah, that's a thing, I've never thought about doing that. So it's definitely not just internal facilitators that have that, because I think the rest of us do as well.   C.B Yeah, yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah.   H.J It's really nice, the Bristol meetups you mentioned, I think that is a really nice mix of, I think it's about 50-50 split, internal and external. And I'm always amazed myself at the breadth of different types of facilitation, and the more you, you know, you talk about facilitation and what you can facilitate, you know, it's actually quite a huge array. The edges are very fuzzy, but it's really nice to see all those different methods and different conversations that we have together.    C.B Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.   H.J So thinking about the actual tools and techniques and all that kind of stuff, what's the one thing that you really, really love? I know you've talked about working with the public, what's the one methodology, perhaps, or tool that you really love using? Is there one or a few? Perhaps?   C.B So I worked on a research project called 'adapting to a changing climate flooding coast'. It's like in difficult situations where flood defence is not the answer for lots of different reasons, but there's not a straightforward, this is how we're going to manage the problem. It was a really good opportunity to take ourselves out of our comfort zones and think, what methods within, with these communities could work? Because we've not got all the answers, actually. And so we developed some more conversation based techniques. And so we did role play simulation. I think when people say role play, everybody's like, Oh, but it's a 90 minute role play simulation where everybody gets a chance to hear different perspectives. And so that was a real privilege being involved in testing that and very emotional. So things like role play simulation and those sorts of techniques that support better quality conversations. I sort of we experienced a situation where people have been working together for years and years, like the local flood Action Group and local planners, our members of staff, and people got to the point where they didn't want to go to the meetings anymore, but because it was redesigned around this role play simulation, and they all went along and took on someone else's role for 90 minutes. At the end they, it was quite emotional, and people, I think, were able to empathise and stand in the shoes of I didn't realise I was making you feel like that. And it was a building block for completely redesigning how the different stakeholders then worked together, and then they got together after the role play simulation, said, What does this mean for the way we're going to work together in the future? And it was just, it was very powerful. It wasn't very long. It's only 90 minutes, like I said, but it was just the fact that it was like a key I suppose that sort of opened up people's eyes to realise that they'd all been exhibiting behaviours that were really unhelpful if they did genuinely want to find a way forward with each other and help each other out to find solutions.    And also, everyone went to the pub afterwards, which I think also just really helped for them to see each other as human beings and to realise that it's not easy for people to just work in a professional role and take their hat off. We are all people and we, you know, we do really need to respect each other within conversations. And it was a yes, it was quite a simple technique. And in the past, I would have been one of those people as soon as you say role play simulation, I would have been one of those people that's really sceptical, but it's really changed my view on the power of standing in someone else's shoes and pretending you're that person and doing that in a safe space. So that in the last few years has probably been the technique that I think has been most powerful in helping people that are really stuck in positions and the meetings have become very adversarial and difficult, and where our staff don't want to go, the stakeholders don't want to come. You know, it's the worst situation that you sort of as a facilitator and engagement expert that you bump into more often than you'd like to. And it's trying to help people reset their relationships. And it was a really powerful technique.   H.J Wow, it's good I guess that you have such a technique that you know definitely works in a given situation. And it sounds like those perhaps conflicting, difficult conversations do come up a bit, I guess, with the very nature of the work that you do.    C.B Yeah, absolutely, yeah.    H.J And do you get to kind of play around much with different tools and techniques? Because I presume you've got quite a lot of time pressure to actually do the facilitation and do all the rest of the work that you need to do. Do you often fall back on tried and tested things?    C.B Yeah, absolutely, we absolutely do fall back on tried and tested things, especially when we're doing things in-house. I think if we were, if there was a situation like that, we would use an independent facilitator to come in and help us. Even if I was doing some of the design work, I would be working alongside an independent facilitator. Yeah, I haven't done any roleplay simulation without an independent facilitator. And I think that is really worth it, and it can make a massive difference. So yes, it's recognizing those situations, I think, where something's become unproductive and difficult, mental health wise, for everybody involved, and it is worth then the investment of we need to do something different here. So we do support those situations.Most of the time,yeah, we're just using run of the mill techniques, like we love online since covid, you know, lots of online workshops, mural boards, or, you know, whiteboards that sort of thing is our go to run of the mill. What we would use all the time, slido polls, things like that. Yeah, that's just the everyday stuff that we're doing.    Although, like having to be very wary about not making assumptions about people's sort of not everybody's comfortable with using those, those sorts of techniques, you know. So having to remember that you do need, you do need to give people space to understand how to use the mural board. And I think people, yeah, so the mural boards and concept boards, whatever you use, they're brilliant, but you do have to always remember to do a little intro. It sounds really obvious, but otherwise, I think it can be a real barrier for people. Some people just don't know how to move the bits and bobs around, and just not getting too comfortable with whatever technique you're using, I think is really helpful.    There's loads and loads of techniques, and I think one of my favourite ones that I learned at the last International Association of Facilitators is like the role play simulation is a difficult technique, like, as in, difficult to design, and you need to do loads of prep. But the really quick technique that I learned was called, 'I wonder if', and that was a really good technique, and it's just a different way of framing things so and that can be used at any moment with even within a meeting, you know, and that thinking about how you frame questions is maybe the, maybe the use of questions and how you frame questions is the most powerful tool that we've got as facilitators, in terms of, even within a session, that can make a real difference and turn a conversation around.   H.J And I guess, particularly when you know you can't necessarily redesign a whole session each time for every piece of work you do, and sometimes, if it's about, perhaps just making those small changes, by asking those powerful questions then, and they get you the results, much easier to focus on doing something like that than thinking about sort of grand redesign and using all sorts of different tools and all the rest of it, which is nice, and I think does keep us kind of interested. But actually, there's a question about, I suppose, who are we doing that for? Are we doing that for us as facilitators, because it's interesting, or are we doing it for the participants?   C.B Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I love a new technique.   H.J I was gonna just a sort of extra question, really, about that online versus in person? What's the kind of balance?    C.B Oh, yeah, like 95% online now, I would say. We've always been really careful, I think, as an organisation in when we get people together because of the carbon footprint. So, you know, ever since I joined the Environment Agency, there's, there's always, quite rightly, does this have to be face to face? Yeah, and we obviously use the trains and things like that. And, yeah, now is, since covid, I think it's, I guess, you know, we've realised the potential of online and invested in, you know, the government, just generally, I think, has invested more in sort of tools and techniques to help us as as people working for the government that to use those sorts of tools and techniques to have more effective online meetings. So the vast majority of the comms engagement work I do on projects is online workshops, rather than bringing people face to face. And that's a big change in the last five years, because when I was working on the National Flood and coastal risk management strategy four or five years ago, we did bring stakeholders together, at key points for face to face meetings. I think if we were doing that now, a lot of that would be online, so you still have, you still have meetings with people, but you know, they're virtual, which brings its opportunities and challenges. It's more inclusive for some people, because they don't have to travel. And, yeah, it's, but it's, there's something magical about having people in a room, and that's the bit you miss.    H.J Yeah, definitely. I was going to just pick up on the challenges bit. So I've asked you about what you enjoy about facilitation, and you know, nice, all the nice stuff, but what are the main challenges of being an internal facilitator?   C.B I think the main challenge is, I'm working on a project where, you know, where I'm always, whatever I'm working on, when you're working on the project, and you're part of the project team and you're the engagement advisor on it, how independent can you be? And that's a challenge. And so identifying when I need to bring in another in-house facilitator, or when I need to bring in an independent facilitator is really important, and I do, I do have to do that often on the big projects I work on. So, yeah, so that's that's a challenge, is recognizing when you need that and being able to see that far enough in advance so you know, so you can plan for that.   And the other challenge, I think, is it's easy to get really busy on your day job and on your projects and that they are it is busy, and there is a lot to do,making space for me to go and be an independent facilitator for someone else, when you're really busy making space to do that as often as I can. Otherwise, I don't keep my skills fresh, and six months can go by and I realise I haven't gone and done something. I've done lots of facilitation, but I've not done anything for someone else that's completely independent of my day job. And so that's what I have to check myself on, is making sure that I am, I am still doing that, and when I do it, it's so brilliant. And that's when, like I said earlier, that's when you get taken out of your comfort zone of facilitator, which is what sharpens us up, I think. Because facilitation is hard, it is it's exhausting, but it's brilliant as well, when you have those magic moments, when people have understood, you know, understood each other better, and you've helped, by the way, you've designed that meeting and created that space. You've helped people to move forward more in a more positive way, and that's worth it.   H.J Definitely. That's a definite similarity. I think, you know, as external facilitators, exactly the same. Well, certainly for me, you know, it's that feeling, I guess when you've you've done something right, you know it's gone well. And you know that people have come to a good place at the end, it's like, yes. Nice, big glow.    C.B Yeah, ready for my Mars bar at the end.   H.J Yeah. And so, I guess, last question really is, what advice would you give to anybody else that is working as an internal facilitator. Any words of wisdom?   C.B Yes, I would say, keep taking opportunities for training, because I think formal training has its place. And I think going and doing more formal training, it's easy to sort of just do your training initially and then never do any more formal training. I think formal training has its place as facilitators. So going and regularly doing formal training. Definitely mixing with other facilitators who are not part of your organisation. So the International Association of Facilitators provides that perfect opportunity in April. It's you know, and so if you're able to go along, even if it's just for a day, not the whole thing, I think that's really helpful. And then the last thing is, as often as you possibly can, is to facilitate outside of your day job. And I know that's difficult, it's difficult to make the time, but that is, I think, where you'll build your confidence as an independent facilitator. And getting, you know, getting feedback, I guess, is the last bit that links to that other one. So yeah, that's the things I would encourage people to do.   H.J Brilliant. Thank you. It's been brilliant to talk to you today, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and bits and pieces about all of your experience and all the stuff you love about facilitation.   C.B Thank you too.   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at [email protected] .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

 This episode is one of our quarterly "Chapter Chats" where Helene and Nikki talk to a member of the leadership team from another IAF Chapter.  Today's guest is Jan Lelie, founder of IAF Netherlands.  Outside their IAF role Jan is a facilitator with a background in experimental physics. Key topics from the conversation include:  How Facilitation and the role of Facilitators has changed over time What Jan has learned and continues to learn from other facilitators "you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other" How the IAF Netherlands Chapter was established " we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English… "                we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue." Topics and themes of past IAF Netherlands conferences The IAF Netherlands Initiative: 'diverging conversations through facilitation' "We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point?"            "a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book" Ways the IAF Netherlands brings people together  A full transcript is below. Links Today's Chapter https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/netherlands   Today's guest:  Contact Jan by email [email protected]   To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell.   N.W And I'm Nikki Wilson.   H.J And this episode is one of our quarterly chapter chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. Today, we will be talking to Jan Lelie, facilitator and founder of IAF Netherlands.    N.W So welcome Jan. So to start off with, could you tell us a little more about yourself and the work that you do Jan?   J.L Yes, of course. Well, I facilitate, and I said, I've always facilitated. I worked for six weeks as a consultant in 1984 and then decided that it was not for me, and that any situation requires all the participants to be in the same room, in the same place, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And find out actually what the problem is about. So I studied physics, experimental physics, and there I learned that the definition of the problem is part of the problem. So in most of the situations, people have a, how shall I say, the rudimentary idea of their problem, and then they start to implement a solution. And when the solution doesn't work, the solution actually becomes a problem. So you're asked to get a solution implemented which is not the solution to a problem, so it will never work. And I started out in IT, information technology and communications, and there, often IT is not a problem, it's a solution that doesn't work.   H.J  And so you have been part of the IAF for nearly 30 years, I think. How have you seen the practice of facilitation and the role of facilitators change in that time?    J.L Well, first of all, I think that everybody facilitates. It's like everybody communicates. So facilitation, in my experience, is about making connections. It's how you connect with people, how your relationship works, and from there, and everybody connects with each other, only like with communication, nobody has been trained into effective communication and in effective facilitation. So most people work from an expert position, like a consultant or a trainer or even a moderator, and facilitation, in my opinion, is a different paradigm, a different way of dealing with relationships, and the only way to progress is to to learn from each other in working as a facilitator and facilitating. So that was one of the reasons I went to an IAF conference in London in the end of the 1990s which was organized by the IAF, and because we had a computerized brainstorming solution, we wanted to show and also I already had organized a group of what we call moderators, a network of moderators. And then I learned that what I was doing was called facilitation.    H.J It's interesting. I think a lot of people have said that, that they, they didn't necessarily call it facilitation, or call themselves facilitators. They sort of discovered by accident that there was a name for it.    J.L I studied biophysics, and I used to call it catalysation. And the catalysation is what most of all biological systems rely on, catalysation. And catalysation, strangely enough, means breaking the connection. So facilitation means making, to make. And Li is a very ancient word which we can recognize in the word line. And line of Li is connection. So catalysation is breaking the connection. And in my way of facilitation, I'm always being aware of how to end the relationship, how to stop the relationship. I always facilitate with the end in mind, and that's what the catalyst does. The catalyst takes one molecule and another molecule, and tries to connect them, and then steps out of it and unchanged.    N.W And how learned over that time, and if you, if you kind of recognize that that original conference, that what you were doing was, was facilitation, what kind of other things have you picked up through being engaged with other facilitators over that time?   J.L What I do is practice makes perfect. So you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other. Nowadays, at the conference we took about a quarter of an hour after a session, during IAF conference, to reflect on the session itself. What went well? What did you do? What can you do differently? And I think that is basically how I work. So it's still, I'm still doing training and courses, and then also what we learn together. I always say I cannot teach you anything. I can only facilitate your learning. And that's how I approach facilitation. Also, I try to be a facilitator's facilitator. This might sound strange, but I will say the universe is my teacher. So the universe is very kind, and they offer you lessons. And the problem is that you, as I said, you cannot see the lesson until it appears, and then it's always in the resistance. So when you feel resistance against something, it's probably something you need to learn. And that is also what makes facilitation for most people very, I shall say, difficult or awkward, is that you have to deal with the resistance of a group or the situation, and let it be, not try to solve anything, but just like to see how it works out. If you see what I mean. Like I said, the universe doesn't have an agenda. So sometimes the lesson comes too early. Then you learn something, and you think, okay, thank you. And then sometimes the lesson comes too late. So then after two or three years, you realize, okay, this session, I happen to speak to a colleague facilitator yesterday, and she has problem in managing her team. And she said, it's difficult. And then I asked, What kind of difficulty? Is it difficulty? And then we remember suddenly a session we did, like 4, 5 years ago, what was a very simple technique by a Korean facilitator who I've invited of making bracelets of your, of what you find difficulty, and then put them on your arms and on your legs, or wherever you feel the difficulties, and then sit with them for some times, and then have a conversation with others who are also sitting with their difficulties and dealing with that. And that's where I work. You know, you get this, this method or this tool, and then you think, okay, just the opportunity will arise.    N.W Oh, excellent. I love that idea of sort of collecting things that you might use in the future, but not necessarily knowing where they will, where the need for them will emerge. I think that's probably something that a lot of us do, but not always consciously. So that, I love that example. It's great.   H.J I just want to think a bit or ask a bit more about that, the whole sort of community element, I suppose. And thinking about IAF and the IAF Netherlands and ask a little bit more about that. So you're current and past chair of IAF Netherlands, but prior to that, you were IAF Benelux. Can you tell us a little bit about how the chapter was established?    J.L Yes, in the, well in 1990s I met John and Maureen Jenkins. And Maureen had been, or was, was becoming Chair of IAF world, and they happened to work in the Netherlands, and they organized a conference in Amersfoort here in the Netherlands, and I joined the conference together with some colleagues. And during the conference, we decided that we should have a Dutch network of facilitators, and we started to create a foundation called IAF Benelux. And it was in a time when IAF didn't have any chapters, it was just IAF world, and you became part of what, in my opinion, was an American organization, and then we, well, we founded this, this, this network, and we organized events. I think the most important thing is what we did is local events,and a yearly conference and also I went to the to European conferences. But the main thing for most Dutch people is they like to work in Dutch. And that is the other thing we organized from the IAF Benelux, we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English, but as that's been established by Dutchman, and there were some Dutch speaking assessors. We use the English process to have people certified in in Dutch and here in the Netherlands, we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.   H.J Um, and that's for the Certified Professional facilitator accreditation   J.L Yes, and I think we had about 100 or so certified facilitators here in the Netherlands at some time, because we did it together with the yearly conference, we had a certification event, and also we had separate certification event. At a certain time I think we had two every year. And beside that, we organized events, like I said, I like to meet other facilitators and to work together and to explore our way of working. And John and Maureen at that time, were very, as I said, supportive of the, of it. I think Maureen is one of the best facilitators in the world. He's one of a kind. So, and that's what worked for a couple of years, six or seven, eight years. And then IAF organized itself into chapter structures, and we had to become an association. So we, we terminated the foundation and became IAF Netherlands and for again, about, I think, 7,8,9 years. But the problem I always said with associations is that you have all these things about membership, and I think that association is not the best fit for a network of facilitators, because it creates expectations about what IAF does. So people usually ask me, okay, what is IAF going to do for me? And I said, Well, nothing. I'm not your mother. You have to facilitate yourself. We're here to facilitate you. But people kind of expect us to do things for them, and I was resisted that so, but I must say, I'm an exception. So most of my fellow board members, they were very kind, and they organized things, and they made memberships at everything. And I'm not that good in organizing things, you know.   H.J I guess that's true of lots of people, though, isn't it? So some people are natural organizers, and some people just want to go and do whatever the facilitation or the, you know, take part in things. And sounds like a, it's a good job that you have that mix in the chapter.    J.L Yeah, and I also said I'm the worst chair in the world, you know, because I facilitate, I don't share anything. So, but in the end, because the problem with a board is, in my opinion, that you shouldn't have people in the board for eternity. So we made the decision that you could only be two times three years in the board, and then you have to leave the board. So gradually the board of the IAF changed, and then many of the board members became frustrated, because when you organize a conference, not many people show up. I think that is only natural with facilitation, because it's the diversity of facilitators is too wide to have a common ground. That may sound strange, but in my opinion, we don't have a common ground. We don't have anything in common except that we call ourselves facilitators, and that is not enough to have a professional association. I personally always say a facilitation is not a profession, it's a calling.   N.W And so I mean, I suppose, bearing that in mind, despite some of the challenges of finding some common ground, you have hosted 12 conferences, I think, over the past sort of 30 years, while you've been involved. So what have been some of the topics or themes that the conferences have been about and that you've brought together people around?   J.L Well, usually, I collect a small group of people, and we have a conversation about, or a facilitated meeting about what, what could be the theme of the conference. So we did a conference of, do, do the nothing, or in, in the Dao, it's called the way Wu wei. So it's, it's like do nothing, and it's very difficult for facilitators not to intervene, but sometimes it's very important not to intervene, so be there and be aware of what happens, and notice that you should let things go as they were, and only wait until you are invited to intervene. So we did a conference about that. We did a conference of sedators carries on. So I think it's in England it's a set of movies, carry on movies.   N.W Yeah, quite a different facilitation, I think in my memory, but yes.   J.L No, but it's also what we do. You know, you just carry on.   N.W yeah, too true.   J.L and also like things that like, Oh, what do you do when you don't know what to do? This is also an interesting theme. And we also did a thing on facilitating with the brain in mind. So at that time, about 10, 15 years ago, a brain facilitation was coming up. So I just invited facili, we just invited facilitators to have a meeting together, so and bring the knowledge or the experience together. And then we also did something about like serious facilitation, which is also very funny, facilitation, seriously.   H.J It sounds like there's definitely a bit of a theme just listening to you talk around facilitators needing to sort of step back a bit and not get too stuck in. And I do recognize that that kind of feeling, that sometimes you feel as a facilitator, that you need to do something.    J.L The other issue with facilitation is that you always have to work from a perspective and a meet up perspective. You have to be aware of your awareness. So you have to be aware of the metaphor which is being used. So people talk in metaphors, but you have to take the metaphor literally and not figuratively, and that is, and that is very hard to do, to see yourself in a situation and be aware of your situation and at the same time, how should I say, control your behavior or or inhibit that's also a thing which is important, that you are inhibited. In my opinion, I will say that your timing is more important than your method. So we are also always focused on to methods and techniques which are important. You know, you I know about every method and technique in the world, but at the same time, the timing is more important so you can use the wrong method and still have the right timing and get the results. Where, if you have a good methods, but your timing is wrong, then it won't work. And then people start to think, Okay, I should know this method better, but now it's not in the method its in your timing. And in my interventions, I always try ,and then when we do is also about when we're training, to be late in your intervention, a bit laid back so you can see your intervention coming, at least I can do it, and then I say, Okay, let's wait for some time and see if I'm right. You have to be aware of your assumptions. Yeah, that's it. And that's also in physics, you know, that's what I'm mean, to be, to be aware of your assumptions about what is needed and first test your assumptions before you act on it. That's, I think, how you should define your meta perspective. So whatever happens in a group, you make an assumption, okay, I think they are stuck. And then you say, okay, What sign do I have that they are stuck? Okay, well, they're quarreling, yeah, but quarreling doesn't mean they are stuck. It can also be very constructive. You know, one of the times as an example, I was a co facilitator with a facilitator, and people only in a group were disagreeing with each other, and they asked me, What should we do? I said, Well, just let the disagreement continue. Disagreement is good, and only when you're called in to, to facilitate, then you come as a facilitator. And and this is very hard to do, because you want to keep, to care for the group. Do you want to people to be constructive and to have people sometimes they have to disagree with each other. And only when you're asked to intervene, you intervene.    N.W Yes, I think there's something really interesting there about, as you said, the timing, and kind of maybe leaving it a little bit longer than you'd be tempted to, just because sometimes then something more emerges that you might not have assumed would happen. And, yeah, really interesting.    H.J Okay, thinking of time and moving on, just so we make use of the time we have. I just, I wanted to ask a little bit about the book that you co wrote, co authored. And this was, I think, one of the initiatives of your chapter, the IAF Netherlands chapter, and it was called diverging conversations through facilitation. And I think it's got 24 different case studies from different facilitators. And I just really wanted to find out a little bit more about that.   J.L It was actually a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book. So every year a book about facilitation. And so I invited a group of facilitators to brainstorm about it, and I asked them to bring one of their favorite books, one book that inspired them. And then everybody introduces themselves using their book they brought. And then we looked at the qualities of the book, and then we make a list of the qualities about the book on facilitation, and then it was, they came off. So okay, we should have concrete cases about what you do as a facilitator, where you make the difference. It should have a strict format of four pages with two pictures, but not use the actual pictures, which make them into a line drawing, because you can read line drawings easier than pictures. And also they don't age. So pictures age, and then it should have a, shall I say, the preface, and a reflection on the on the book, and, and then we made this the chapters like, Okay, what did the client say? What was your situation? what was the core question?  What did you do as a facilitator? And then away, actually, where did you make the difference as a facilitator? And then what was your result? And then a reflection on your session. And then we edited all the and then we asked people first of time in the Netherlands, we did the thing in the Netherlands, first called the book, was 'Facilitation Made Easy'. And we just invited people who came to the conference or in our networks to submit cases and asked their clients if they were okay with that their case was used. And also we checked the actual cases, and then we edited them for for, how should I say it, that they all look the same. And also, when you ask a facilitator what they do, you get a long story about the I did this and this and then I did, but that was not interesting. We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point, or the the Blue Note way, what was, what was, what you did, the counterpoint in your session? And then we sent them back to them, and what do you think about it? And then when they agreed, we put them in the book. And then, and it was very clever. I think we made, we decided to print like 2000 copies, but you could have your own cover sheet. So you could buy 50 or 100 with your own organization on the front and on the back, with and, and these were the sponsors of the book. So they paid, actually, they paid the fixed cost for making a book, publishing the book, even before we had to sell it, because they have already and they got a very low price for the 50 or 100. So our company might at work, ordered 100 and there were several other organizations, most of them organization for facilitators who bought 50 or 100 copies in the pre-sales. And I had my book published by Helling here in the Netherlands about facilitation, which is actually a meta praxis. And then it was in the Netherlands it was a huge success, and I introduced it at an IAF Europe conference. And then we decided to create the international version, and we translated the 12 international cases from the Netherlands, because a lot of us work in other countries and than in the Netherlands, and we invited facilitators from England, from Germany, from Japan, from North Africa, to add their cases. And we use the same format, and we added a glossary of terms, because then suddenly you notice that when we use the same word, we are saying different things. And we published that book, and our basic idea at that time was to make it one yearly or two yearly event and use the cases from the IAF award, let's say, as a format. We proposed it to the board, but we never heard anything about our proposal, again. One of the other things a facilitator could only buy two copies. So you bought one for yourself, and want to give away.   H.J Nice. I think I have a copy actually. So yeah.   N.W And from all of those different global case studies, are there any sort of key themes or lessons that came out of those, or any particular case studies that stood out for you?    J.L Yes, several. I think the case from Maureen Jenkins is very interesting because he worked with a congregation of nuns in Roman and international organization, which is actually very huge, but they have to change their way of working, and since it is very natural. And also, I like the case by Marlin Moran from Sweden, because in that case it is actually, it's a very short case, which actually, which is very often the case in many problem situations that people have different, how should I said, meanings of the same word. So in this case, it's about teamwork, but and the teamwork didn't work because they, the CEO, didn't think they were a team. They were working as a team, and it just happened that they had different definitions of the way of teamwork, some thinks, okay, it's a month or the weekly meeting. And also now we should pull together as a team we should share those. And Marlin noticed that and then made that as an intervention. And so this is also the cases that you start out with a certain assumption about what is the case, and then suddenly notice that there's a completely different problem or situation which is not being discussed and which should be on the forefront of the meeting. And I think this is one of the red threads, the one of ,what they have in common, that you are able to change your assumptions on what is happening while in the meeting. So of course, it's very difficult because you have prepared your script and or if you have your agenda and you want to stick to the agenda, but actually your own, I will say, you only got your agenda to know where you differ from your agenda. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. So you've got a plan. I'm very, almost very well prepared for my sessions, but most of the times, in the first quarter an hour or first half an hour, the plan goes out of the window.   H.J I really like that plan. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. I think I might, I might take that as a quote.   J.L  yeah, and you have to be able to replan your session during session, and that is why you have to. So only when you are well prepared you can improvise, because that gives you the certainty that you have thought this and and the ability to let go of your preparation when the need arises, when the situation asks you to. By the way, I learned it from a very good facilitator. She once came to my training. You did the brown    N.W and so thinking about, obviously, you've talked about the book and the conferences. What other ways do you sort of bring people together in IAF Netherlands? what other kinds of activities have you run? Or do you currently run?   J.L Well, strangely enough,we had to dissolve the association, so we are now kind of a kind of open network, which I run through meetup, and I only organize one meeting a year, and still the meetup starts to grow and grow and grow. So we go from 300 or under 300 to over 500 now. And I sometimes ask people, okay, what you want me to organize, to facilitate, and then I get no response. So I don't know, you know, let's see. I'm hoping to do something in September about facilitation.    H.J And do you have any particular you know, What do you think will happen in the future? So at the moment, it sounds like it's sort of loosely organized network of meetups. Or, as you say, you know, you put one meetup on a year. What are you hoping for the future?    J.L Well, what I've seen, what this happened, has happened in the Netherlands, is that there are several networks now, or facilitators, most of them are organized in a company and around a certain method or a certain tool, like Open space or Agile or Facilitation Academy. And in most of those, future center. And in most of those networks, people participate, who used to be in the IAF network. And I sometimes talk to them and say, why don't you come to the IAF meetings? And then say, well, we don't need an international association. So they are like local organizations for local meetings. And I think it's that's I think I see myself, like as a catalyst. And also in the IAF Meetup group, most of the participants are non Dutch speakers, but they work with consultancy agency or, yeah, or they are self employed in networks as a trainer or a consultant. They don't call themselves facilitators, and I expect that after some time, we will start doing more meetings or sessions on facilitation. But then, you know, this is just my way of organizing. So I don't organize much. I like just things. Things happen all by themselves. They don't need me to to happen and only when you when I'm asked to do something, I do something, that may seem strange, but I think that most of, actually all change processes happen by themselves through everything, even before open space, I thought everything that happens is the only thing that can happen and the people who come are always the right people. You know, I did sessions at an international IAF conference, and only one person showed up at my workshop. And, okay, let's have a one person workshop. And she's still very fond of it. Since I met her again, she's from Turkey. She still remembers that workshop that sometimes you know you your workshops are crowded to 40, 50 people. Okay, your framing creates your situation. So when you frame yourself as an association, you've got Association problems, and I can say blindly, which they are. You have to tend to take care of your members. The members expect you. You have to have a board, and your board will indefinitely expand. You have a certification events, and the certification will also proliferate. You get like a master certificate and a beginner certificate, I already predicted that this is a normal way of working. And as I said, facilitation is not a normal way of working. We are exceptional people ,work in an exceptional situation.    N.W Okay, well, I mean, I think there's a really lovely sort of emergent theme, kind of running through the conversation today, which I think it's more about, as you, you said earlier on, about the kind of ,the universe, I think, and how that shifts, and maybe that's how the future of the chapter might emerge and sort of respond. So I think we've had a really great conversation today, Jan thank you so much for your time. If listeners are in the Netherlands, where should they look? You mentioned the meetup, where can they find out more?    J.L Yeah, the IAF Netherlands meet up.    N.W Okay, so is there a website they need to look for?    J.L It's a Facilitator Meetup Netherlands facilitated by IAF Netherlands it's called.   N.W Okay   J.L  And there are now 5579 members.    N.W Brilliant. And what about if people would like to get in touch with you directly. Where's the best place to find you?    J.L Well, you can use it through the facilitator meetup by IAF Netherlands, or send me an email. [email protected]   N.W Great. Thank you so much.    H.J Thank you so much. Jan, it's been really interesting talking to you, and I'd love to chat more, but for today's podcast, thank you very much.    J.L Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, lovely to talk with you.  

  In this episode Nikki talks to Claire Pearce about Journaling and Writing. Claire is a writer and facilitator who runs journaling and writing workshops and she also has her own radio show. They talk about: Why Journaling is a powerful too that facilitators could use themselves;         "Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it" Claire's journey with journaling and how it has changed for her; How to start journaling and writing regularly;             "I think just start really small is my main bit of advice" How Journaling can be applied in facilitation work with groups;       " It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being        human" The writing activities that Claire uses in facilitation; Facilitation tools and frameworks such as the GROW model. A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest:   http://ClairePearce.uk To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and today I'm going to be talking to Claire Pearce. So welcome, Claire.   C.P Hello, Nikki, thank you for having me.   N.W No problem. So first of all, um, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?   C.P Okay, so I do lots of things, which I've, I've begun to reconcile myself with. So in terms of journaling, and writing, I run journaling and writing workshops. One workshop I do is more about just writing for fun. And I call it writing for fun, even though it's sort of morphed out of journaling, I'm using prompts and things to get people just to write freely and have a bit of fun with it, and see where their pen goes, which is great for if people are sort of blocked or just want to have a bit of fun writing, heaven forbid. And then the other leg is more sort of self help, I suppose. So I do a monthly workshops that has a theme, like in January, I always do my, what's your theme workshop? So what's your theme for the year? So we reflect back and we look forward and sort of develop a theme or get to something near a theme. So it's that kind of thing. So there's the two different kinds. But yes, they are all with the idea of getting people writing because fundamentally, whether you write,  journal or something in between, it's all good for you. At least it is for most people.    N.W And beyond that, obviously, I know you also as a facilitator. So is there anything else that you want to say about your facilitation?    C.P I guess, yeah, I do freelance research work. I really enjoy it. I love sort of learning about something completely new, kind of going, Oh, wow, this is interesting. And yeah, so I do that as well. And I do do an odd bit of coaching. And I do have my own radio show. But that is obviously a voluntary,not obviously. But it is a voluntary thing that I do, because I love it. What else Oh, and I write, I've written a few books, I'm writing a few more. And I'm just getting into copywriting. It's going to be another string to my bow, because I've realised I really enjoy it. So yes, lots of things, I'll probably be something else the next time I speak to you.   N.W I know that's that feeling Claire, don't worry. But today, we are going to be talking about journaling and writing.Both are something that facilitators might do on a personal level, also as an approach that we could use with groups. So thinking first of all about on an individual level, what is it that you feel makes journaling and writing so powerful?   C.P Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it. And that's exactly what it does. And you know, I'm trying to find a way to capture that thing. You know, when people say a problem shared is a problem halved or whatever , there's something so true about that. And whilst it's not as powerful as speaking to a person, because that is the ultimate, you know, if you're struggling with something, or even if you just want to offload doing it with another person, there is something about the energy, I think, that passes out of you to somebody else that's different than if you write it down. But writing it down is the next best thing. And you can do it 24/7, because you've always got a pen and a piece of paper to hand. So you're not having to rely on it, I suppose it is a bit about self reliance, probably a part of my own personal journey with it. But yeah, just getting stuff out so that you can see it in a different way, you get a different perspective. And yeah, it just makes you feel better. And you can, you know, see things that you wouldn't have thought if you had just kept it in your head, you know, it stops the spin cycle. It helps you get a bit of respite, if you know if something is whizzing around in your head like that tumble dryer type effect. It gives you a bit of respite from that. And like I say, you look at it, and you get some different perspective. And just the energy of writing it, getting it out of you releases something, I think.   N.W Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Listeners won't know but I'm a regular in your workshops, and really kind of learned the power of journaling over the past year and a half, two years. I think there's also something about the kinds of patterns spotting where I've probably identified things that come up again and again and again. And I have no idea that they were quite so regularly going to be coming up, you know, like, I knew that they'd been niggling away for a while. But when I look back, I think, oh, you know, how is that theme or things related to it continue to resurface, then there's a chance to kind of dig deeper into that.   C.P And also, depending on how you use journaling, and like you say, if you're the sort of person who will look back and reflect over a period of time, there's so much you can learn. You know, you can see you're likely to see themes and recurring patterns and recurring dynamics and start to see, oh, there's a one common thing here and that's me. So it's not saying everything's my fault, but it's starting to see that there's something about the way I'm reacting or creating something, you know, that is relevant. And yeah, but there's, there's so many benefits, we could spend probably hours talking about all the benefits.   N.W And so I mean, what's been your own journey with journaling? Have you always journaled or is it something that you've particularly found that has evolved over recent years?   C.P It's definitely evolved. I probably started journaling properly about, I'm gonna say 10 years ago, without overthinking it too much. But I was in therapy at the time. And my therapist recommended, it was called something like freeform writing for therapeutic something another at the Gestalt centre. I think she still runs it, actually. And I thought, Oh, she's just trying to get a course out of me. I was quite cynical, honestly, because I just thought, oh, writing is not my thing. Because my sister was always the writer and I was more sort of arty, whereas we've swapped which is really interesting over the years. So I went to this writing thing, thinking a bit, feeling a little bit. And I absolutely loved it. And I use some of what I experienced in that workshop as my inspiration for the way I run workshops, because there's a lot of pair work, and it's all about just getting stuff down and sharing it because we're all the same underneath. We've all got the same neuroses and anxieties, and, you know, hopes and dreams, you know, we're not as different as we think we are. And when you share with people, which is what I do in my workshops with the journaling, it's amazing how people connect, and it's almost like I can, I can see the relief sometimes with people where they're like, oh, it's not just me, you know, whatever it is. Sorry, back to my journey. So yeah, I did that a weekend and I just loved it. I made everybody I knew do writing with me, free writing, I suppose, essentially where you just let go into the pen and just keep going. And then I started the workshops. But yeah, so on a personal level, it was just that weekend, the stuff you know, and I always talk about stuff with a little asterisk, which is just all the pent up, unprocessed, unfelt, unacknowledged feelings, emotional responses, you know, all this stuff in me that had nowhere to go, I didn't even know it didn't have anywhere to go. But I realised during that weekend of writing, it's like oh wow there's stuff that needs to come out here. It was really dark. And there was a lot of swearing, and but it was all, you know, you could kind of just go for it. And I really got into it after that. So I'd say that was you know, I had a diary when I was a kid. But it was so dull. I kept one page of it just to remind me how dull it was. I had tea, I went to bed, went to school. It was so dull, I didn't get it. So yeah, and like you say, evolve it, you know, it has really evolved my journaling. And funnily enough, recently, I was reflecting, I haven't journaled anywhere near as much in the last year or so, but I've written a lot more. And I've sort of realised that my journaling has more evolved into writing. So I get the same, I think I get the same thing out of writing that I did out of journaling, it has definitely changed over time. Yeah.   N.W And so for any facilitators listening who haven't tried journaling before, or perhaps are doing it but aren't aware they're doing it, what would you suggest in terms of getting started, you know, just having a go?    C.P Well if they're doing it, and they're not aware they're doing it, then they don't need to do anything, I'd say. It doesn't really matter, I don't think what you call it. If you, if people haven't tried it, there's a few ways in, one of them is just to pick a, first of all, pick a time that works for you, don't try and do it, don't sort of fall into that, oh, I should be able to get up in the morning and at least do half an hour, you know, that never works. So find a time that works for you. It could be on the hoof, you know, it could be like five minutes at lunchtime if you have a lunchtime. So just a time that works for you, just pick you know, think tomorrow when is going to be a good time and pick that moment. And then just write for five minutes. Maybe just write about how the day has been so far. Just just to get started. I mean, a really good prompt is "I noticed" and Nikki, you would have heard me use that before in workshops. But it's a really interesting one because it's completely different. If you just write what did I do today, or it brings up completely different things I notice. So I noticed as a good prompt, I guess it depends what people want to get out of it. Because I'd say whilst ultimately just pick up a pen and write some stuff down. If you're wanting to journal in a way like you do, where you write over a period of time and then you review back and you're looking to learn about yourself or you know your habits, how you do things and learn about where you can make your life easier, really, I'm not going to say improved because I think we're all fine just as we are. But then that's a very different. You might want to be a bit more regular and a little bit more, I'm going to leave it for a month and then I'm going to look back and see what's there. Personally for me, the journaling I've done the most is what I call medicinal journaling, which is basically in the moment. So if you're feeling stressed or anxious or angry, anything that's a bit difficult. I mean some people find excitement difficult so let's throw that in there as well. You know that in the moment ,what's going on? Why am I feeling anxious? Sometimes we don't know. So that's when I am most likely to pick up my journal or get my phone out if I'm out and about and type, you know, just type it in and just describe it. You know, where is it in your body, how you feeling? What's going on? Just what's going on in your life because it can be so obvious sometimes, but you don't see it always. But when you start writing it down, it will pop up. And you'll go, Oh, yes, that's what this is about. So that's really helpful to know. Because then you can do something about it. So medicinal. But then, you know, I say that I started doing that after I had journaled more regularly. So maybe, maybe it's not easy to start with that? I don't know. But yeah, I think it does depend on what you want to journal for. But yeah, I think just start really small is my main bit of advice, because if I had a penny for everybody who said, I can do at least half an hour, and I can get up a bit earlier, that's not much to ask, well, but it's the same with any habit and you don't do it, you might do it for a few days, but then you'll stop. And then you'll feel bad because you've stopped and then you won't do it again. So start with a minute, you know, literally just go a minute in the morning and just go, how am I feeling today? Just name it.   N.W And I think there's definitely something powerful about getting started as well, actually finding the minute to put the pen to the page, sometimes it then becomes an hour and you hadn't realised, but you would never have intentionally carved out an hour to do it. It's just that once it starts Oh, I can't stop now, maybe that's just me, but.   C.P Yeah, no, that's absolutely what happens. But if you said, you said I'm going to do an hour, you'd be like, Oh, God, I don't want to do that. That's too much. I've got too much to do, blah, blah, blah.    N.W And so thinking more about our roles as Facilitators, and working with groups, I mean, obviously, you've you've mentioned pair work already. But often we're in a situation where we're trying to get people to talk to each other and to interact better. So with that in mind, why would you encourage Facilitators to consider bringing writing activities into a group situation?   C.P Well, I guess the most obvious place, I would think it would be a great thing would be in a sort of icebreaker context. Because I just think, you know, I've been on lots of workshops, and I've run lots of workshops. And you know, and, and so is everybody listening to this, and so have you, you know, and good ice breaking is so powerful, can change the whole session, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, when people turn up, one of my favourite exercises is what I call 'The Whine Bar', which I think you've done, which is just to have a good moan and a good whine about anything in your life, just get it all out. Because I think this is half the problem. We don't allow ourselves to be honest, even with ourselves. And I think journaling has really helped me with that actually going back to your earlier question. So really kind of just getting stuff out. So that's a nice thing to do. Because it just allows people, it's kind of going you're allowed to be human here, I think, I mean I didn't plan it. I didn't think about it before I did this exercise. But on reflection, I think that's part of it. So it's a real, you're allowed to be human, you're allowed to moan. Doesn't mean you're gonna dwell in it for the rest of the session or whatever, but you're just allowed to get it out. And then by putting people in pairs to share, and I always invite people to either share what they wrote, or just talk about how it was because not everybody wants to do that, obviously. And there's just, I think it's, there's just something magical that happens, because when people come back, and I see their faces in person as well, people have such an energy, most, you know, 99% of the time. And you can see they shared something with their fellow human being. Even I mean, I don't know, because I don't get to hear what people say to each other. But it's just that humaneness. It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being human, whether it's like, oh God, I felt like it was, like I say, so it's that whole it wasn't just me that, you know, is crazed about the election, or, you know, whatever, or that feels like I'm gonna lose my mind on a daily basis, or whatever it is. And that privacy of the pair, which again, I know, I don't need to tell this to this audience, because you'll all know about, you know, the individual, you know, if you put people in threes, they just won't share as much and somebody could still not talk. Whereas pairs, people have to say something, even if it's, I don't want to say anything. And there's something about that that's liberating. It's kind of like, Yeah, you don't have to fine. So I just, yeah, like I say, when I see those faces, when people come back, it's a beautiful thing. And, and they've just shared something more than, you know, knocking about an idea. And I don't think there's any context that is out of bounds for that, I guess, if you're dealing with people, maybe where people are struggling with mental health, for example, if you knew, if it's an explicit situation where that's being talked about or worked on, I guess you would kind of maybe approach it slightly differently. I probably still do the same kind of thing, but maybe in a slightly different way. But so I think it's really powerful for that and as we work through a workshop, you know,it just continues to do that same thing. People are seen and heard, you know, and people can go a whole year without being seen and heard and you know, immediately even if it's irrelevant to the topic, I think that's the thing as well. It's just the magic of that being seen and heard and listened to and witnessing somebody else, you know, you get to witness somebody else and realise, again, that we're all human and flawed, worried we're getting it wrong, desperate to get it right, all of that nonsense, you know, we realise that it's not just us.   N.W What is it you say about kind of starting that with some writing rather than just saying, you know, have a good whine to your partner, whatever? What is it about the writing part of it that you think particularly allows for those, that kind of opening up?   C.P Yeah, that's a good question. So I think when you write stuff down, you can just be much more honest than if you were speaking out loud. You know, if I asked you a question, and you gave me the answer, or I said to you write down what you think about, you're going to be much more, again, 99%, the time you're going to be, everyone's going to be much more honest, in what they write down on a piece of paper, because it's private, it's for them. And I always say to people, you know, write it for yourself, first decide afterwards, if you want to share any of it or not. So it is it's that honesty, it's that, you know, and I can still, I can still edit myself and journal. And I think we might have even had this conversation, but it's still possible to completely be editing yourself, but to suddenly realise I'm still editing what I think and what I'm allowed to say. And journaling does give you that freedom and just think you're gonna, you're going to be more honest. And then when you share it, you're more likely to sort of take a bit of a risk. And people are often quite surprised by what they write down, things that they haven't seen will come out. So people want to share that, they want to go Oh, God, I can't believe I wrote that. I can't believe that, I thought I dealt with that thing. But here it is. And it's, they want to share what surprised them, I think.    N.W And so you've talked about the wine bar,as a kind of opener activity. What other sort of favourite activities do you have that you use with groups?   C.P Well, as you well know, 'what does the radiator think?' is probably my favourite, which is where we use dialoguing, which is a journaling technique. It's so powerful and maybe you can say something about your experience. So let's say we've just written about, let's go to the New Year workshop, and you've just written about the year gone by and reflected on this that and the other. And then I'll invite you to sort of go pick an object, and I'm sitting here looking and there's, I'm at my friend's house, he's got lots of gold animals. That's a whole nother story. Anyway, there's a golden parrot sitting there on this lamp, you know, and I might choose, you know, you just pick an object that you kind of are drawn to. And then I'll say right now what does the parrot think about what you've just written. So now I write as if I'm the parrot having just observed me writing about what I've just written about. And it just you have to try it if you're listening, because it's just endlessly useful. And you could literally, every object in your room, every inanimate object in your room, a door, a lamp, ironing board, it doesn't matter what it is, but you'll get something different from each of those things. And a good example of that, is when people pick plants, or trees or flowers, they tend to have like a nurturing voice. So it accesses this nurturing part of them that is always there. Of course, it's always there, but they wouldn't have found that bit of them in another way. I mean, there probably are other ways to find that, but it's just a really quick and easy way. So people will be giving themselves this amazing advice that's going to help them from a plant sitting on their desk. And then they're kind of going oh yeah, I can do this for myself, you know, and it's, it's so powerful. And the perspectives that one gets, I mean, a really good example of this, and it might be a little bit personal, but it was so good that I just have to share it. So I have this whole fantasy family where and it's a really good thing to do for journaling actually where you just pick people who would be your ideal uncle or your ideal grandparents or whatever, cousin ,second cousin, I've got a whole load. And that's just a fun thing to do anyway, it's like a game I made up one Christmas I think just like fantasy family, who would they be? And then I've a few times I've used them in journaling as another dialoguing thing because obviously you don't know those people but you know if you've picked somebody you're familiar with. So Charles and Caroline from Little House on the Prairie are my fantasy parents, probably everybody's fantasy parents assuming people know who they are. So the other day I was really struggling, I've, you know, we've all got these situations where it's just there's no easy answer sometimes and you have to sort of accept there's nothing I can do about this right now. I just have to be within. So I wrote to Caroline and Charles. So what should I do, like what I didn't really say that much about the situation but what should I do? And they replied, and Caroline just went,the mother obviously, she just went go lie down dear, go upstairs and lie down for a bit. Just forget about it. And I was and I know that sounds so simple, because I've had much more complicated and fascinating dialogues with characters but it was exactly what I needed. I just needed to be told just stop, just stop. And that was the end of that conversation. I didn't need anything else. It was like, oh, yeah, and it was so, so useful. So it's just got so many potential uses from something, you know, like that to, to getting the radiator to say to you, you know, you're over worrying about this, just get a grip. Or, whatever it is, you know. And in fact, what was it the other day? Oh, it was something Yeah, it was the radiator. It was something about that the radiator was saying, you know, I'm stuck here on the wall, I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere, but you can, but you feel the same as me. And you know, something like that. It's just kind of like Oh god yeah, there's a real, it really helps to pin down that feeling. Obviously, you can relate that into whatever your session is about. You can play around with it. Let's say you're facilitating something about a strategy for a business, you know, you can ask the business what it thinks. So you could get everybody to talk about it, write about it, whatever about it, and then go right now think about the business, the product, what does the product think, and again, the stuff that can come out of that just can be amazing. So it's got no bounds, that exercise and I will never tire of talking about how fabulous it is.   N.W In fact, some listeners, if they were there, might remember the very first time I encountered that specific exercise was in an IAF conference workshop.    C.P Oh, yes.    N.W We were in the depths of lockdown.    C.P Yes, we were. N.W My lovely radiator was very kind to me and said, you know, that it could see me kind of struggling away being stuck on my own computer. And you know, all of the different things I was doing. And I mean, it sounds, it feels crazy to talk about it in this way. But I would say that it just gave that different perspective. And I think one of the things that I do more regularly, like one of the activities I would do in journaling, is more of a kind of dialoguing now, but it's even more like a conversation with myself. So I'm imagining there's somebody else there going, So why is that? You know, could you tell me a bit about that? You know, again, it sounds like talking to yourself, but   C.P It kind of is? Yeah, it kind of is really it's kind of, but it's a much more sort of constructive way to talk to yourself.   N.W Yeah and to work through things I think as well. Like it's progressive, isn't it, it helps me certainly get out of a loop. And I can imagine, as you said, in a business scenario, or you know, work scenario, you can get quite entrenched in your own role in something and actually pulling in that different perspective and going, you know, what does the customer think? What does the factory think? Whatever it is just kind of shakes that up a little bit. Okay. So then, I mean, we've talked quite a lot there about different things that a facilitator could do to introduce some writing into their workshops. Have you got any sort of thoughts or advice on how to convince clients that it's a good idea? You know, if you've got any suggestions for that?   C.P Do you mean in terms of a proposal for a workshop?    N.W Yeah, like giving an outline or getting people to buy into it once you're in, in that scenario?   C.P But well I think that I'm not sure I'm gonna cleanly answer this question. But I can tell you that if you're in the situation, and you're already there, it's kind of, I mean, again, I think the whole, you know, I've read quite a lot about sort of with mental health and writing and well being and that kind of thing. And you do have to be a bit more careful. But I think as long as you name everything, it's fine. But I did a team building workshop with some pharmaceutical sales reps who were not impressed when it was announced that I was there to do some writing journaling with them, there was lots of folded arms. And it was quite a scary looking room. But I thought, Well, I haven't got anything else so this is what we're doing. And when it just does the work for you, you know, even the first exercise I just said to them, just write about everything you've done to get here this morning. And they were literally all of them didn't stop the pen moving. And I think that's an interesting point, actually, that people who don't normally reflect or don't normally write either or tend to take to it easier, because there's nothing in their way. Whereas you'll find people who write, if you had a group of writers in the room, they'll struggle much more with it from my experience, because they're worried about how they write, they're thinking more about what they're writing and how they're writing it, versus just getting stuff out. So that's an interesting thing to think about. But I still think just sort of go for it. But yeah, they, you know, their reflections and of course, again, I put them in pairs and this was the first just the first thing I did after lockdown in person. And you know, just them getting together in person talking about, you can feel the energy in the room that they just you have to take a leap I think with it sometimes because you're not gonna get people's buy in and people aren't gonna go Oh, yes, please I'd love to do that. It's like, Just do it. And then see what happens. And yeah, there's no situation I dont think I wouldn't do it. And I realised I forgot what your question was.   N.W It was just more about convincing clients as well. Like if they give an outline, this is what we're going to be doing. How would you propose, particularly if they'd said we want everyone to talk to each other lots. And intuitively, you might assume that if say everyone's writing, they're not really interacting, but you know, we've discussed that a bit, but how?   C.P Well I guess it is that isn't it, it's like you're gonna get everybody's voice heard in the room guaranteed because you're gonna, A, like we were talking about earlier, they're going to be more honest, when they write stuff down, then when they share, they're going to probably say something slightly different, that's more connecting, not necessarily, but they might, and everybody's voice will be heard, you know, not necessarily by the whole room. But again, when I've done workshops, you know, with some very quiet people, what's brilliant is, is when you come back from a pair, I'm thinking particularly about zoom here, I guess, because I've done more of it in the last few years. And then people will speak for the other people, they'll say, oh, so and so wrote this really interesting thing about such and such, and that person would have never necessarily volunteered to have it. But that person then will share for them and, and you can see, they're quite happy for that to happen. I mean, I guess this could happen that somebody wasn't happy, but I've never seen that happen. So I think that guaranteed to get voices heard for people to open their mouths and speak words, you know, and be involved and get them involved, right from the get go to me would be, that's, that's the thing I would try and sell. But if I felt like they were going to be resistant, I probably just call it something else and not go into detail about what it was, you know, just call it something innocuous and then bust it out when you get there.   N.W And are there any sort of facilitation tools or frameworks that you think can particularly work well, with journaling and writing activities kind of built into them?   C.P Yeah, well, I think so I have done coaching and I've used journaling, slash writing with coaching and that you can you know, the GROW Model, obviously, the most straightforward of all the coaching models and people know that model, you can sort of follow that with a situation. So that's how I'm going to self coach myself, that's sort of my go to, apart from medicinal journaling I talked about earlier. So literally, with the GROW, so goal, you know, it's like, what, what's the situation you're in? What do you want to happen? write about that, then the reality bits really interesting, because you can look back at what you've written, and kind of go through and go, Well, what's actually real here? What's my assumption? What, what's my generalisation? What's my judgement I'm making, in what I've just written? And that again, you can see that much easier than if you try and just say it or think it, you know, you just can't separate it out in that way. And normally, by that point, to be honest, I know, in my experience, and I know other people's as well, you already know what you need to do before you've even got probably even sometimes to reality. So that model is quite good. And then of course, if you do carry on options, you can write about options, you can ask the radiator, or whatever it is you choose, in that moment. The problem itself, ask the problem itself, what it would do?, you know, again, using those sorts of things for the options, and then the what's next, obviously, you just have to pick that. But so I guess in a coaching way that model, but you can pretty much use it with any model, I think, to be honest, because you just instead of talking about or brainstorming or whatever, you can just insert the writing where you would put brainstorming or just getting down the facts of the situation, you know, that people are in so.   N.W Great well, thank you so much Claire . I think that's probably the sort of end of my questions, and I have to kind of curve myself otherwise, I could keep asking all day, which as you know, I'm quite prone to doing. But if anyone who's been listening would like to find out more about your work or get in touch with you, what's the best place that they can do that?   C.P ClairePearce.uk. So it's CLAIRE, and then Pearce is PEARCE .uk There's no code it is specifically just UK. I've got two names that need spelling out, which is unfortunate. I have thought about changing my name but.   N.W That would be extreme.    C.P Anyway, that's where you know, my email is and all of that stuff.   N.W  And thank you again, it's been really great to chat to you today.   C.P No problem. It's been a pleasure. And I hope some of that was useful for people and I'm very happy to answer people's questions if they want to ask me anything about it.   Outro    H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.    N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links are on our website facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.    N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?    H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.   N.W Then send us an email at [email protected]   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.

FS69 Social Presencing Theater with Rosie Cripps   In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Cripps, a facilitator and evaluator who helps build social movements and evaluate complex systems, about Social Presencing Theater. They talk about: What Social Presencing Theater is, its origins and some of the tools and techniques that sit under it; The role of the facilitator in creating psychological safety and responding in the moment without knowing the details of the issue being explored; How Rosie first experienced Social Presencing Theater and what interested her about it; "with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all." A workshop that Rosie ran with Ann Nkune at the IAF England and Wales conference using the tool "Stuck"; "Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently". How this experience led Rosie to attending a recent Social Presencing Theater course and the learning from that experience; Rosie's thoughts on how to take this forward, including a call out for collaborators; A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest: Rosie Cripps on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosie-cripps/ Today's subject Presencing Institute: https://presencinginstitute.org/ U School: https://www.u-school.org/ Arawana Hayashi Social Presencing Theater website: https://arawanahayashi.com/spt/ Social Presencing Theater The Art of Making a True Move (book), Arawana Hayashi   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: [email protected] IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (N.W), and my guest today is Rosie Cripps (R.C). So welcome Rosie.   R.C Hi, thank you for having me.   N.W So to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?   R.C Yeah. So I'm a facilitator and an evaluator. I help build inclusive community-led movements and as part of this, so I've helped teach architecture students, Appreciative Inquiry, and I've been exploring the idea of universities as anchor organisations to help communities become resilient and self-sustaining. And I evaluate kind of complex, messy systems. And I usually do that using outcome harvesting, which uses lots of facilitation. So in summary, I kind of help build social movements and evaluate complex systems.   N.W Great. And so today, we're going to be talking about Social Presencing Theater. So for listeners who don't know what it is, Please, could you tell us a little bit more about it, and how a typical session might work?   R.C Okay, so this is very different from my day to day work. First of all, Social Presencing Theater uses mindfulness, movement, and reflection, to create quite dramatic shifts in perspective. So it can be used at an individual level, or with teams, with big organisations, or in quite complex systems around social justice issues, or climate change, or something like that. It was created by Arawana Hayashi, and she's a dance teacher. But it's mainly been applied across sectors by someone called Otto Scharmer. He's an academic at MIT and he basically coded what are the principles of innovation, and he turned them into a theory called 'Theory U'. And that's all open source, because he wants as many people as possible to be tackling the complex issues of our time. But they together, Otto and Arawana, they co founded the Presencing Institute, and they use Social Presencing Theater as a means for helping people to progress past habitual thought patterns and into these principles of innovation in whatever context they're in. So I personally find Social Presencing powerful, because you can work through very kind of tricky issues where we might feel stuck or unable to move forward very quickly, sometimes taking you to a place of being more stuck. But at least you have different insight. But without having to reveal at any point, what the issue is or what the tricky situation is. And it can be also very bonding for the people who are doing it. So your group that you're working with, it's very bonding, even if you're working with a complete group of strangers.   N.W And so how might a typical session run?   R.C Yeah, a typical session. So this is tricky, because I'm new to it. And there's also lots of different methods that sit under it. Some individual based tools and techniques, and some are for very large groups. But they think the way that Otto Scharmer mainly uses it with kind of fortune 500 companies and big organisations is he uses something called 4D mapping, which was co created by I think Otto Scharmer, and Arawana. And people who also use organisational constellations, and people who use presencing more generally. And 4D mapping, basically, you map out a system using people. And then you sense together a different potential future for that system. So it allows you to see in kind of 3D what the system is currently looking like, and how it could potentially shift. And that can be really powerful. And systems mapping, because it's very malleable. I like traditionally in systems mapping, I would kind of draw out a system, and it's very fixed. Whereas in this situation, you're sensing together as a group, where are the opportunities for movement, and that can give a lot of insights into what should change.   N.W Okay. And so what would the role of the facilitator be in that environment? And how would that be different from other types of facilitation? Would you say?   R.C Yeah, I think, I think in that context, because you don't always know what the actual topic is, there's kind of two parts to it. So one is it's about making the situation safe, because I think generally, we're not used to moving as a society. We're not used to using movement and so the psychological safety is really important. And then the other aspect is you're going in blind. So you're kind of sensing the room as opposed to, in a normal situation, you can be kind of tracking the flow of the room by listening to people in their conversation them expressing what's, what's going on. Whereas in this context, it's much more about sensing what's happening in the room. And responding to that in that moment. So it's quite different actually supposed to be a lot more emotionally responsive to what they would normally be as a facilitator, I think.   N.W And, and as you've said, this is quite different to the kind of tools and techniques and facilitation work you'd normally do. So when did you first come across Social Presencing Theater? And what was it that interested you about it?   R.C So I was reflecting back recently about which of the workshops and where are the places in my life where I've had the biggest personal transformational shifts, and which have been the workshops that have made those shifts last, and they've all involved movement. And so there's two workshops I've been to in my life. The first was in my early 20s, which is kind of a week-long workshop which involved movement. And, again, involved no talking. And then I volunteered at the Never Done Before Festival, which is run by Myriam Hadnes's community, and just stumbled across a Social Presencing Theater Workshop. And in that workshop, it was online, it was only like an hour, I think.  It was people from all over the world who had never met before. And yet, even in that very short amount of time, we just did some small movements.You know, just sat at my desk, and then also some group movements just in breakout rooms, and it totally shifted my perspective. And I felt incredibly close to the people that I'd been working with, even though I'd never met them before and it was all through a computer. So it kind of made me think, Okay, I'm personally finding this stuff really powerful and interesting. But is that you know, other people's experiences. And before kind of, like throwing myself into that, I guess I really wanted to explore that further, and see if other people were getting these shifts and transformations as well. Which is why, and then I started talking to Megan Evans, he's been a kind of mentor to me, and to Ann Nkune, who I know, to a shared love of Appreciative Inquiry and time to think. So I just literally read Arawana's book, and then suggested to Ann that we run a session at the IAF Conference, which we did this year. So that's kind of how I came to it, it's not been a planned route. But I found it personally very powerful. And it's also linked in to actually, after I had children, I started dancing. And I had a complete shift really, again, in my perspective, when I just I think I lived so much in my mind, when I started dancing, I had this dance teacher who didn't teach us kind of choreographed moves, he just taught us how our body wanted to move. And I didn't know if you can actually even call it dance, it's probably just me moving around terribly, but I found it really powerful and healing, just getting out of my head and into my body. And I think that's a lot of what this is about. It's about just getting rid of those habitual thought patterns and kind of living in our minds all the time. And being in our bodies and noticing that our bodies have a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we just waste, we just waste. And the thing I found with social presencing, is we spend so much time talking especially you know, as in groups, as facilitators, we see so much talk and conversation. Whereas with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.   N.W Okay. And so you've mentioned that you ran a session at this year's IAF England and Wales conference,with Ann Nkune, and so could you tell us a little bit more about that?   R.C Yeah, so I mentioned earlier, there's, there's quite a lot of tools that sit under social presencing theater. So our IAF conference workshop focused around a method called 'stuck' and in that you take a situation where you're not moving or thriving or something's not moving forward, or maybe you're just kind of stuck in your comfort zone and you you're not really willing to step out. And you embody that situation in whatever form you want to take. You form a statue and you call that sculpture one and then you kind of sense in your body you let yourself move to a different future. that wants to emerge through you. You move to a second position, and then you call that sculpture two, and you give each sculpture a phrase. And that in itself sounds very bizarre, but is very powerful. So for instance, the other day, I had a situation where I had to report a huge amount of data to a group of people. And I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed. And so I put myself in this stuck position where I had my kind of arms up in front of my head, and was almost crouching down, and my word was overwhelmed. And then I moved into a second position, which gave me a lot of clarity. And I had another phrase, which was, they need to make sense of it. And so I in my head, I've been getting stuck over and over with trying to make sense of all these overwhelming amounts of data, when in actual fact, it kind of shift the perspective straight way for me in that I didn't need to be making sense, but I just needed to be presenting them with data. So that's just an example of where you might use stuck. So we use stuck. And then you start off working through your own stuck practices, even from sculpture one to sculpture two. And then you extend that out as a group. So in our workshop, and in most social presencing situations, we don't at any point, know what issue someone is working through. So you'll do your sculpture one to sculpture two on your own, and then you extend that out as a group without explaining what it is that you're working through. And the other people in our group will help extend out our stuck situation. So they become other players in the system. And they help enhance that feeling of stuck, and also give a different perspective on it. So So in my situation where I was stuck with feeling overwhelmed with all this data, I might have someone standing in front of me who's representing all the hundreds of interviews that I've done. And then I might have someone stood behind me, who is representing the people that I have to show all this data to. And then we would move together as a group, so they wouldn't know what this issue is about at all, but they might look at me and say, You look pained or, or I'm seeing confusion, something like that. And then we'd all move together with no idea where each other we're going to move or any sense of where we should move, we just move wherever feels right at the time. And then we'll move collectively together into a second sculpture. And then again, they'll give their perspective on the situation. So they might say, you know, you look freed or relieved or something like that. And the other people's insights can be just as valuable as your own. And I think for me, and our IAF session, that was what people found most powerful is working through something as a group, without anyone in the group knowing what it was about, except for that one individual. And even though as a group members, for example, I've done this a number of times, even in situations where I don't know what the person's going through, I can personally find it very moving as well. I think just by moving together as a group is very bonding in itself and illuminating. So we did that at the IAF conference, we did this stuck on our own and then stuck as a group. And then we use time to think, to reflect on what those processes felt like to the groups involved.   N.W Okay, and so you've mentioned, I think that this session was for you a bit of an exploration of how to use this. So what were your personal kind of takeaways from that session?   R.C I think there were a lot of takeaways, actually. I think the main thing was that it was something other people found powerful. So I went in thinking, okay, is this just me, in fact, I was there the night before in my hotel, and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? Because I'm going to a conference I've never been to before, co facilitating with someone I've never met before, on a subject that I've only read a book about. You know,I didn't know whether this is going to be something that anyone else would get anything from at all. So the main takeaway was, oh, wow, okay other people are finding this useful as well. And I think having spoken to a few people after the conference, they said, you know, it's one of the sessions where they were able to go deepest. And again, I think that's because they didn't have to talk about anything that they were kind of working through. So as a facilitator that's quite strange because you're kind of blind to all of that. But it's really nice to be able to create a space where people can work through some quite tricky personal issues. So yeah, there was that, that it was helpful. Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently. And that, you know, someone else mentioned that there's something that they've been talking to people about for months and months and months, and just couldn't see a way out of this situation that then had done that, and then could instantly see a way through. So I was like, Okay, great. I feel like it's, it's a useful tool. So that was the main thing. I also noticed that maybe it isn't for everyone, and getting the context is going to be right. And I think for Ann and I, we both kind of felt that we recognise that it was probably more powerful, like using movement is more powerful than we originally expected. And thinking about how we prepare the room for the emotions, it can trigger as well, I think is quite important. But yeah, just the overwhelming thing I took away was the kind of desire to experiment with other people more, to try it out with other people more. And so then that evening, I think went back to my hotel room and signed up to a course in Berlin to properly train in it.   N.W Great. And so you've neatly led into my next question, really, about that course, and what happened on the course? And what did you learn there?   R.C Yeah, so the course was a two day course with Arawana Hayashi herself. So that was really exciting, because she kind of founded it all. And it was with 43 other people from all over the world, actually, but mainly from Europe. I think there were four people from the UK. And we went through all the different types of techniques, which she describes in her book called Social Presencing Theater. And yeah, it was, it was just incredibly insightful. There were lots of different techniques that we tried out, some, you know, just on our own, some as a whole group of 43 people, some in small groups, all that can be used in different contexts. And again, I think by the second day all of us were just feeling like, why would you bother talking anymore? It just seems like such a waste of time, when you can kind of get so much clarity and connection with others in silence, you know, just by moving together. But it's called Social Presencing Theater, but it's not about theater, it is just about moving and embodying. There's no acting element to it. There's nothing theatrical actually about it at all. It's just a way of using, thinking with our bodies as well as our minds. Yeah. So the training was fantastic, gave me loads of ideas and met loads of connections, lots of people who were also thinking about using it in all kinds of leadership scenarios. And actually some massive issues about, you know, tackling climate change and deforestation in the Amazon and all these different frameworks, people using it for and all of them finding it ,yeah, a really interesting method of breaking just habitual thought patterns and approaches to situations and thinking about things really differently.   N.W Okay. And so I know that you, you weren't on the course very long ago. So this might be a difficult question to answer. But what are your current thoughts on how you might take it forward and put it into practice? Yeah,   R.C Yeah, so I think main thing at the moment, which is very much just a thought process, to help serve this, but Ann and I are thinking about experimenting, doing another session at London Lab, which is linked to the London IAF group. So we're thinking about doing that in maybe September or October. And I'm personally thinking about how I built it into my work with systems thinking and systems mapping. So it's part of the evaluation work I do, we do a lot of systems thinking work. And I think using it in that context is really helpful, because it's a really malleable way of looking at how we can change and shift systems, but also even the stuck practice, which is just within individuals. You know, through all my systems based work, the one thing that stands out is that unless we change people, you know, we can't change systems. And the stuck practice itself is a way of really helping people shift their perspective on their role within a system and what they can do individually to change things. So yeah, I'm thinking about how I can build into my work. And I'm also just looking for as many people as possible to collaborate with who'd like to experiment with Ann and I on this.   N.W Great. And you mentioned earlier that in your IAF session, you combined this with time to think, are there other kinds of facilitation tools and techniques that you think could work well alongside social presencing theater if you're building this out into something you would use in other contexts?   R.C Yeah, I would say on that, that Ann and I used time to think at the end of the session, and we were also thinking about it from an Appreciative Inquiry perspective, because that's what both of us use primarily in our work. Having said that, at the training, it really shifted my perspective, because I think one of the things which they tried to focus on with social presencing is, is moving out of these habitual thought patterns. So they just focus on what did you do? What did you see? What did you feel? And so I think probably, I wouldn't use time to think with it anymore, possibly, or maybe use elements of time to think that not, not use exactly the same principles. And I think that also relates back to the psychological safety element as well, you're never really conceptualising with anyone, what it is you're working through, maybe not even yourself. And I think that's actually helpful, because we get so bogged down in our thought patterns. So I think keeping it very just in the moment in your body, like touching, not overthinking anything is quite important with the process. So yeah, what tools would I use it with is possibly Appreciative Inquiry, maybe as a precursor to that. And then systems mapping and any group work where you're working through individual challenges collectively as a group, maybe it's support groups or something like that.   N.W That's great. So if listeners would like to find out more about social presencing theater, where should they look?   R.C Okay, so there's a book by Arawana Hayashi called social presencing theater. I think it's called The Art of Making a True move. There's also a website. So Arawana has a social presencing theater website, which is really interesting. And then there's also this wider context of 'Theory U'. So Otto Scharmer, and Arawana have a website called the U-school, literally the letter U hyphen school. And that gives a wider framework to the work as well, which is, they have loads of open source training as well, which is really interesting, if anyone was interested in that.   N.W Brilliant and how about if people want to get in touch with you after this? Particularly as you've got a call out there for collaborators and fellow experimenters as it were.   R.C Yeah, probably just LinkedIn is best for me.   N.W Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. That's been really interesting. And I hope to hear more about where you, where you take this forward. But thank you for sharing where you've got to today so far.   R.C Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I look forward to hopefully hearing to some people who are interested in experimenting.   Outro   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com   H.J To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about N.W Then send us an email at [email protected]   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W  Until then, thank you for listening.

This episode is one of our quarterly "Chapter Chats" where the team talks to leaders of other IAF Chapters.  In this episode Helene and Nikki chat to Sara Tremmi Proietti and Andrea Panzavolta from IAF Italy.  They talk about How the chapter began in 2013 and the successive leaders since then; Initiatives to extend the reach of the chapter in Southern Italy: The co-leadership model used for the past two leadership terms;   "Our jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives. And this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommend" (Sara on co-leading with Giacamo)   The Chapter's Annual Conference- its volunteer-led model and support provided to people who'd like to run a session; Working collaboratively with other Associations in Italy; Twinning with other IAF chapters including Romania and Syria; Plans and aspirations for the future of the Chapter;  "we would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about it" A full transcript is below.  Links  Today's guests:  Sara Tremmi Proietti: [email protected]  IAF Italy website: https://iaf-italy.org/  IAF Italy email: [email protected]   Today's subject  LinkedIn Article about Co Leadership by Andrea and Deborah: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/stepping-leadership-iaf-story-deborah-rim-moiso-fmdwf/   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter  Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/  And to email us: [email protected]  IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team  Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/   Transcript   H.J Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell (HJ) and   N.W I'm Nikki Wilson (NW)   H.J And this episode is one of our quarterly Chapter Chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation, where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations of the chapter. Today, we're joined by Andrea Panzavolta (AP) and Sara Tremmi Proietti (SP), co chairs of IAF Italy, welcome.   S.P Thank you, Helene.   A.P Thank you so much for the invitation and also for your perfect pronunciation.   H.J Thank you so welcome to you both. And to start off with, we would like to know a little bit more about both of you and about the kind of work you do. So if you could tell us a bit about yourselves, that would be great.   S.P Thank you Helene. Okay, so my name is Sara, and I live in Rome, which is in centre of Italy. I have been working in public administration for over 10 years now, and for the past three years, I've been drawn to the world of facilitation, first attending a course and then starting to work also in in this field, public administration, I focused initially on economic programming, but then I turned more on teams like innovation and process optimization. So that's how I met facilitation, because during an office reorganisation attempt, we met a lot of conflicts and resistances and difficulties with our team. And so I understood that I needed to, you know, to discover and to learn something more about people, about relation, about group working. So that's how I met it and how I am.   A.P So may I introduce myself, and first of all, thank you for the invitation and for this amazing initiative, because I also listened to the past podcast and were very, very, very well done. I'm not the actual chapter leader. I was the past chapter leader with Deborah Rim Moiso. So thank you also, Sarah, who invited me to join you. And I'm an urban planner and the facilitator, of course, our 20 years that I practise as a facilitator. I'm a founder of the formative collective, that is a project that focuses on the team of non violent communication. And of course, we use the participatory techniques, methods. And I was awarded with the Platinum Award 2020 by the International Association of Facilitator. So I'm very proud about this, in a project that I follow it by region Emilia-Romagna, that is my region in the north of Italy, and the team was about the Community of Practice on participatory policy making. So that's all for me.   H.J Thank you. Really interesting to hear how you both got into facilitation and congratulations on your award too, Andrea.   A.P Thanks so much. It's a past award.   N.W Great. So today we're going to be talking about IAF Italy, which we know had its 10 year anniversary last year. So what can you tell us about how it started and how the chapters developed over that 10 year period?   A.P Yeah, thank you for the question Nikki .The Italian chapter born in 2013 on the initiative by Giancarlo Manzone and Gerardo de Luzengerger that I imagine you know very well. And from 2019 to 2021 was coordinated by Paola Martinez. That is another IAF member, very active. And since May 2021, has been coordinated by me and Deborah Rim Moiso. And now the coordinators are Sara Tremmi Proietti and Giacomo Petitti. And the chapter started to create collaboration between facilitators, and mainly to explain what the facilitator do. At that time nobody in Italy know the term, the word facilitator. And I was scared to present me as a facilitator, because nobody, nobody could understand what I did. So this is our first mission in that time.   H.J Thank you. Really interesting. Sorry, Sara, did you have something to add?     S.P Yeah, I would like to, just to add that the professional facilitator now it's spreading a little bit more in Italy, but still, we have a lot of resistance among organisations. And there is a great concentration of facilitators in the north of the country. So we are our initiative now is also to bring facilitation to the southern regions of the country. And we are quite pleased about an initiative that came from our members, which is a small initiative, because they just decided to have a WhatsApp chat called like facilitators from the South. And the nice thing is that this initiative came from a Canadian girl, who is a member who lives now in the south of Italy, and but, and she's a member of IAF Italy, and she formed this WhatsApp chat, and we are quite proud of this, even if this is a small step, but it does mean something for us.   H.J Wow, that's so interesting. And also that kind of organic movement of yeah, people starting up their own, yeah? Well, WhatsApp chat   S.P Exactly, exactly, yeah.   H.J  And I think what's interesting actually for us is, the more we do these Chapter Chats, we hear a bit of a consistent theme, actually, in this people don't really know what facilitation is. That certainly, when we spoke to Bogdan from IAF Romania, that was one of the things he was talking about as well. So it's definitely and in the UK. So it's definitely not, uh, not something, uh, specific to where we are, which is interesting. Okay, so, um, thinking then, uh, well building a bit on what you were saying, Sara about, you know, you've got some new initiatives. Can you tell us a bit more about the chapter as it is today?   S.P Yeah, sure. So the chapter today has about 30 to 35 members, as I was saying before, with the predominance in the north of Italy. So it's like 20 to 22, members in the north, and four of them are certified facilitators. So now we still have two co-leader, a co-leadership. It's me and Giacomo Petitti. We have been holding this role for a year now, so it's midterm kind of. And what we do is we basically carried on the work, the job that was began by Andrea and Deborah, because we hold monthly meetings. So it's pretty regularly. It's like the third Monday of each month we meet. And we also provided IAF Italy with a Zoom account so that we can, we could, uh, ensure you know this regularity. And this is a place, this is a moment of the month where people can meet and discuss and also participate in building and nourishing the community and to identify together goals and activities. So we wanted to be a participated chapter, no. So since we are kind of scattered among, you know, along the country, across the country, we cannot hold, like in person events so frequently. So we have our national event, which is held in Milan every year. So we keep it, you know, online, mainly. And then we we have, like, some activities, like, you know, things that we participate in, in events with other association for the promotion of the participation, or for the promotion of facilitation as well. Like, we went to an event last September in Bologna. So we travel a little bit, me and Giacomo sometimes. And then to, you know, to keep up with members, we have this WhatsApp chat, and then we have a sort of newsletter. We can call it like monthly, where we give, we keep them updated to with the international events and initiatives that are going on into the IAF Ward and yeah and that, that's pretty much it. And then we have, you know, like a specific also, activities that we were following, but maybe Andrea will tell you more later about it.   N.W And you touched on the kind of Co-leadership model that you follow. What do you, have you found works well in making that work when you're co leading?   A.P Yes, before the 2021 the chapter had always been led by an individual, but when Gerardo asked me to became the chapter leader, I was very scared. And in that period I had less time to dedicate to the association. So I asked to Deborah Rim Moiso to help me, and she joined, and she was very happy to join this experience. And we together were inspired by experiments in Co-leadership adopted by the global ecovillage network and and we not, we're not sure, but they may have too been inspired by the Kurdish democratic and federalism practices. So this was our approach, and it's very simple. Our co-leadership started, I don't know if now work at the same, but I think it's very similar. And any leadership position is taken at the same time by two people of different genders. So we suggest different genders, both are leader together. And you know, as IAF you need to have only one reference, one the chapter leader, but I was the person who did the senior tour. But for me and Deborah, we have the same power. And for me, was very important to share the season and to share also that after the meeting with the IAF International. And was very, very useful also to define the future strategy, also to when we decided to engage more members from the south of Italy, we decided together this and we decided to to have regular meetings with us, with me and Deborah. We call the coffee time meeting, or the beer meeting, the beer time meeting. So every week, we had a short meeting of half an hour to share ideas and also to share information that we took from from different meetings that we participate. So we shared also the duties you know about, to be a chapter leader. And so was a very good experience, and we suggested this managed model to all the chapters.   H.J Nice, and for you Sara, does that, is it a model that feels nice working alongside somebody else?   S.P Yeah, very much. I really appreciated this initiative. And when Andrea proposed me to take the role and told me that Giacomo was in as well, I was really relieved. I was like, Okay, now, now I know that I can do it like this. You know, in pairs. Yeah, I think it's very interesting to be together. And also you can, you know, divide activities, such as the previous one I was talking about, when you have to travel around. And also you can, you know, share meetings where you have to, that you have to attend, but mostly you can discuss and share fears and projects for the future. And also Giacomo and I have very different backgrounds. How are you know, we live in different places, in different type of communities, our jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives and this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommend. So I'm really, really enjoying this. And also the nice thing was that at the last general conference, we kind of hosted the conference, which is organised by Gerardo every year. But also we decided to have a session together for a session. So we brought a workshop so we could test, you know, our Co-leadership in person and during work. So that's nice.   H.J So it sounds great from sort of lots of different perspectives. And yeah, interesting thinking about that diversity perspective that you both bring two sort of different mindsets or different ways of facilitating to your leadership. And I can absolutely, having been passed England and Wales chapter chair, I can absolutely relate to that being a bit scared of doing it by yourself. So if you've got somebody to work alongside with that must feel really good. So the other thing you you've just mentioned again, leading us nicely onto, my next question is about your annual conference. It would be really nice to hear a bit more about about the how that works, about your plans and past conferences as well. You tell us a bit more.   A.P Yeah, maybe I could introduce some themes related to the past conferences. And what I could say a lot of subjects. We started with 'the collaboration era' was the title of the first Italian conference. Was the first conference to make know better the professional facilitator, and to start also the collaboration with different professional you know. At the time, each facilitator was very jealous about his work ,his profession, because it was, was something very precious, so we decided to start collaboration to share experience methods and what what we know. In our conference, everyone bring his or her experience and the share methods could offer a free workshop so you have to share something of your professional experience also. And another theme that I loved, it was "where the donkey falls". So when you are a facilitator, you do everything very well, but when you start to converge to the, to take the decision, here come the problems. So how we could take good decision, how we could go in the conversing way and respect our participants or the group's members. And after that was very good for me, the covid free editions conference, because we shared all we learned in these months of pandemic situation also about the online. But were moment to share those feelings as professional, as individual, as a member of a family, and what does. Also the last conference we organised were about the facilitate in a few words, so no verbal facilitation. How to use the body, arms? You know, we are Italian. We could was very, very well para verbal. But you never stop to study. You have to improve your skills. So we decide to face this team. And the last in the in 2024 the team was neutrality in facilitation. I mean, it's possible to be really neutral as a facilitator in a group, how you can do to be natural, what methods, what you have to do before the groups works before the workshop or after, to be more neutral. And at the end, one of the most nice for me experience of the conference was the agile and facilitation conference that was there during the European Middle East, original conference of the IAF, so was a very, was an international conference. We mainly, not mainly, all the conference has been organised in Italian language. This was the only conference can I organise in English. Always in Milan was dedicated to Agile. So to work with an agile methods, and also to go in deep in the Agile methods that it's not only for person that work with computer and engineers but it's also good for design thinking, the facilitator. And I don't know if Sara wants to add something more about this experience?   S.P Yes, thank you  Andrea, it was very exhaustive. Yeah, what I would like to add is more like a personal, maybe, point of view for in a way, because I, as I said before, I met facilitation three years ago. So I just attended a couple of conferences the last two. So the first one was, yeah, the one like facilitating in a few words, and that, for me, was really amazing, because I just met facilitation and I had no idea, like not no idea, but I was very young in facilitation. So experiencing facilitation through the body and through paraverbal was very enriching for me, because I could learn a lot and experiment on myself a lot. And the second one, and the very nice thing for me was that I was asked by Andrea, I think by Andrea, or by Delfino, I don't remember, to to facilitate the open space technology that we always have during the conference. And it was the first time for me, and that was absolutely amazing experience. And in general, the great thing about the conference is that it brings together very different people, and you get to know that, other words, you know, exist in facilitation. And this is something that being new. It's always you know, something to discover. So it's very interesting. And another thing that I would like to add is that in the this year, last conference, which was held in March, the one about neutrality, was organised in a slightly different way, because there was like a preparation path conference. And people were, are kind of supported and not tutored, but supported in their planning and designing of the workshops that they wanted to to offer. And these, and they were like, they were like feedback, attentions, so that people could improve and take care of, you know, details supported by by a team of, you know, facilitators, and these ensured great quality of of workshops during the conference. It was really, really, really high quality. And I believe that it helped also young facilitators to, you know, to offer workshops with less anxiety. I don't know how to say that, you know, so, yeah, that was really, really nice. I think   A.P If I put up just a very practical thing that is not obvious, the conference is all organised by volunteers, and this is a choice, because the fee is very low, so it's about 180 or 150 euros. It depends about the year. So we want to be very open also to person that are not facilitator, are curious about facilitators or facilitation methods and stories, and that's all.   H.J Sounds kind of similar to the conference that we put on in England and Wales, actually there's, yeah, definite similarities. Nice. Thank you.   N.W Brilliant. And so I suppose building again on that kind of peer led nature of the work the chapter often builds collaborations and partnerships, both within Italy and beyond. So if we just start off with Italy, could you share some examples of some recent and current collaborations that you're involved with?   A.P Yeah, thank you, Nikki for the question. Yes. When I became chapter leader, together with Deborah, we decide to enforce relation with National Association, because we understood that we have to grow, and to grow we have to enforce the relation to know more association that are interested in the same subjects. So mainly we did intervention to explain what I effectively do and what are the core competencies, support, facilitator, and, you know, just to present ourselves and to explain what a facilitator is. We invite all the members of different association to share information and objectives, to find common ground. So we work, in particular with IP two, that is an association in Italy that work on public participation. And if the members are more academic, are more are not professional facilitator, but like to work in the field of facilitator and the public democratic choices. So they are very engaged about what IAF is. And also, we decide to start collaboration with Association like Facilit Ambiente, that is an association, a private association that is offered by the Chamber of Commerce of Milan Monza Brianza Lodi. And it's a sort of service offered for preventing environmental conflicts through facilitation. So they trust in facilitation. They want to support and promote the facilitations approaches and also IAF approaches and the core competencies. So also we work with the open gulf consultation, that is the national consultation, that aim to engage citizens, normal citizens, in the decision related to the government. And there is a national platform, online platform, and you can vote, you know, like this deal, but it's a national platform. So very, very hard to participate because you need, you need to use a lot of personal data to vote before, but for us, was a must. As an international association, as a national association of facilitation, we have to speak also with the Italian government about these, these subjects.   H.J Thank you. Sara, was there anything to add from you?   S.P Yeah, just that this, we are with the associate association that Andrea mentioned, the Association for Public Participation. We are now reviewing the Participation Charter, which was elaborated, created 10 years ago. So after 10 years, this charter has been reviewed. And the Charter is a document promoted by IAF Italy, and this AIP through association with other associations that establishes principles and objectives and guidelines for promoting public participation in decision making processes and the process of reviewing this charter just ended. So we will present this work at the Festival of the Participation, which would be held soon in Italy. So we are quite, quite proud of this. And yes, in general, we try to connect with the associate Association in order to spread facilitation, and also to promote the recognition of the facilitator, facilitator profession in Italy, because this profession is not yet recognised here.   H.J Amazing, Wow. Sounds like you've got lots and lots of Yeah, lots of work that you're doing, and perhaps lots more to do, just thinking about collaborations, but more specifically about the twinning that you've been doing with other chapters. I wanted to ask you a bit more about that. So we spoke to Bogdan, as I said before, from IAF Romania in a previous Chapter Chat and we know that you've twinned with IAF Romania, and you have started, I think, to twin with IAF Syria. And I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about that.   S.P Yeah, yeah. We, Giacomo and I, decided to carry on this, this initiative that was started by Andrea and Deborah with the Romania when but we did with this training with Syria. And it was a very, very enriching experience for us, because it could help us expand our horizon, you know, also beyond, beyond the Western culture. And so we had a series of virtual workshop, online workshop with with Syrian, in order to share knowledge, resources and best practices between our chapters. We had four meetings about the first one was like, like, the role of facilitation in post disaster recovery. And this was really interesting, because we exchange different stories, and we could see how different it was to, for example, recover after natural disaster. Like it was like in Italy, because we have, we had a few earthquakes in the last few years that and then we had to rebuild, you know, buildings and communities. Whereas in Syria, they had to rebuild after war, and then also after earthquakes. So we could share this experience, and we would see the differences and the great job that they did, and that we also tried to do here in Italy. And also it was very nice because each, each each meeting, the other meetings, were about the conflict management and cultural diversity. So it was, it was very nice to because there are, there might be great differences, you know, in culture, especially when you, when you compare Italy to Syria. So it really makes you think and reflect even out of the session. You know, you have to think about cultural diversity at the basis of the relation. I don't know how to explain it better. And it was nice because we had the chance to co facilitate. So it was an Italian and a Syrian facilitator. And so it was really enriching and but what I saw and what I really liked is that, because I did facilitate one of these meetings, and it was the openness and the human connection that we could find and share when doing something that we really liked. So it was something that went beyond cultural diversity and went beyond the barrier, also the language barrier that you can meet when you go facilitate. You know, maybe Andrea wants to tell us a few more about the Romanian experience.   A.P But, yeah, sure. Just something to add about the idea, the idea, when we decide, with Deborah to propose this twinning during a meeting of the European chapter, we decide to propose a twinning that was composed about three, four meetings, thematic meetings. And of course, that will not take more than two years twinning, because, from our idea, also the Chapter must be in charge for two years. And every two years we want to change chapter leaders and as well, co chapter leaders. And so the twinning at this time about the Romania was amazing because was the first twinning so we decided together, also with bogdan and his and their colleagues, we decided also to share how it's different the professional facilitator in Romania and Italy. So starting from, what are your clients? What are your fees? And something very, very practical, but also if you work more in the private or public sector and what you did, what are your institution? So the line was to enrich each other with methods, but also take inspiration how to work in a different way with different clients that together are not you don't know. And so was very fun also to understand that we are in the same boat, so everything is the same in your nation. So a very good experience that I suggest to each chapter to start.   H.J Thank you. So then thinking about, actually, I just wanted to pick up on one thing you were talking about there, the language, which obviously we as native English speakers have as the kind of luxury, if you like that, when things are in a shared language, they are often in English, which is quite easy for us. How does that, How hard or easy is that to for example, work with Romania, work with Syria and have to use for both of you to be using a language that isn't your own.   S.P Well, actually, I mean, I do really like languages so and I think it's fun to when you meet someone who is not a native English speaker, to find your own vocabulary, like you build up your own vocabulary, which maybe it's not even English, it's not Italian, it's not Syrian, it's not Romanian, but somehow you understand each other, and that's fun. But I have to say that sometimes it can be a barrier, because, like maybe not all the, not all our members felt confident to facilitate in English. So, yeah, so you really need to encourage them that you will find a way to build up your vocab, vocabulary. And also, I think that during the sessions, there is this, at least for me, like, kind of worried that I may not understand well what people are saying, and maybe I my facilitation could be, you know, so and so. And so, you really need to trust yourself, I think, a little bit more, but also, and that's why I really like facilitation, you can always rely on your co facilitator, so if you or make a joke about it, so if you are two, if it's two, you know facilitators not speaking English as a native language, I think it's a lot easier to to manage that.   A.P If I could share, I remember my first online meeting with the monthly meeting with the European Middle East, and I was so scared about the language, because I never studied English, so I learned by myself. So I was so scared or what, what I could say with these facilitators, so professional facilitator. And there was, I met Andrew Spiteri, you know, in a breakout room, and he was so polite, so friendly, that I was very relaxed. And after that meeting, I said myself, everything will be okay. Don't, don't, don't be scared. Don't worry about the English. And you can also use para verbal and don't speak.   H.J Yeah,that's always a fall back, isn't it? Wow, yes, I've delivered training in a different language. Anyway, moving on. So yeah, looking ahead, what's happening in the near future in IAF Italy and yeah, how would you like to see things develop over the next few years?   S.P Okay, so looking ahead, so our focus, I think, remain on strengthening the culture of participation and participation in general. For sure, public participation is, you know, something that is important for us. And also, yeah, having this thing that I mentioned before that having the professional facilitator formally recognised. So something, yeah, it's like to we would like, yeah, this profession to be seen and understood and recognised at a, you know, an institutional level. This is the general, you know, the frame. So in the near future, of course, there is the next general conference. I know it's we are a year ahead, but it takes a lot of work. And of course, the conference is organised by Gerardo, but it's in collaboration with the Chapter. So we are working on improving the model, the new method that we experimented last year. And so we want to see where it goes if we keep working on that. So with this preparation path, and try to trying to scout a little bit new facilitators and see if they want to put themselves to the test, you know. So that it can be the annual conference, can be a place where people, even less experienced facilitators, can can try it, can grow, can know facilitation better and know themselves better as facilitators. This is Yeah, in the near future. In the long term, I think we would like to, the Chapter to transform into a proper, real, like community, where facilitators can share, can support each other, can network and also create work opportunities together. We what we would like is that people feel free to ask each other for help, for support, if they are short of ideas or about a session or a method or something like that. Then we want people to rely on each other, and we want to facilitate this trust building process, I don't know. And also, we would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about it. So we would like to be Yeah, like a subject, someone people facilitators and organisation can rely on and can go and ask for help or information.     H.J Great. Anything else from you Andrea? Any other thoughts on the future?   A.P Of course, you know, I'm not now the chapter leader, but I absolutely have some ideas. And Sara had said something very important for me, so support the facilitator and to give them visibility. Organise moment to present facilitator to clients, to to factories, to person that don't know facilitator, and have to know and have to use facilitator because it's better. And when you try facilitator, you ask to yourself, why I didn't do it before. So I want to that IAF Italy support also the professional part of the individual facilitator and for me, it's very important, because in Italy, we need to grow with numbers. And I mean, also in Europe, but in our case, we have to make grow the knowledge of facilitators.   S.P I would just like to add that, I mean, my personal dream is also, of course, since I work in public administration, to bring facilitation in public administration, you know. So this is something that I try to do, you know, very, very small things in my everyday life, at work, but this is, it's more a personal dream this, but I would like to mention that as well, because I think we really need that. We do have, I think that facilitation is kind of entering institutions at a small, at the municipal level, so, you know, town hall level. But in the bigger institution which I belong to, I don't see that much, and I think we really, really, really need that. And also I think that for the for the chapter, something that we should try to, should invest on is young facilitators, of course, and this is also a campaign that IAF global is carrying on. We know that some of our members did join initiatives that have been carried on at the global level. And we are very happy about that. And I also, I would like to maybe this is also a personal, a personal dream. But I really like the share and learn idea, you know, the series that we have at the global level. And I would like that to have that maybe at a chapter level, maybe Italian, maybe even in a more structured way, maybe easier. So something that not felt like kind of overwhelming by people, but that can be, you know, a way to to exchange between peers,   N.W Great, well, lots of big plans and you've got a big work agenda ahead of you, but it sounds like some, some great ambitions there, and really interesting different things that you're getting involved in. So just before we wrap up then, where should we go if we want to find out more about you and the IAF Italy Chapter?   S.P We have a website, and then we also you can reach us, reach us at our email. So the website is, of course, www.Iaf-italy.org , and the email [email protected] so you can always write to us, we always answer and see, check our emails. And you can also write to me. My email is [email protected] and yeah, this is, this is our contact.   H.J Thank you so much. So I think it just leaves us to say thank you for joining us today, Sara and Andrea. It has been really fascinating talking to you and hearing all about IAF Italy, past, present and future. And hopefully we'll get a chance to speak to you again soon.   S.P Thank you. Thank you Helene and Nikki for the invitation. It was my first experience, and I'm really happy about it.   A.P Thank you so much for the invitation.   H.J  So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast for IAF, England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website, facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.   N.W Send us an email at [email protected]   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

In this episode Nikki talks to Suzannah Lansdell about Public Dialogue.  Suzannah is a  freelance facilitator who also advises organisations on how to do public and stakeholder dialogue, particularly in the science and technology sector for Sciencewise.   They talk about Public Dialogue as a process bringing together members of the public with specialists and policy makers to discuss complex and controversial topics and gather public insights on the issues without necessarily coming to firm recommendations; "this is this is not a Focus Group. It's not kind of top of mind views. It's digging behind that"  How members of the public are engaged to take part; The role of a facilitator in Public Dialogue and how it's different from other types of facilitation; Some recent topics for Public Dialogue including Embryo Research, Future Flight and the role of Data; The experience of participants and how this differs from other consultative processes;  "one of the key things about Public Dialogue as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply."  How information is shared with participants, including striking a balance on the level of detail and the importance of including a diverse range of specialist perspectives; Evaluation in Public Dialogue and the focus on monitoring longer term impacts from the process; Suzannah's hopes and expectations for the future of Public Dialogue, becoming more embedded in policy making and democratic processes. A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest: Suzannah Lansdell on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/suzannah-lansdell-ab23a78 Today's subject  Sciencewise: https://sciencewise.org.uk/  Involve Resources: https://involve.org.uk/resources/knowledge-base/resources  Involve Methods: https://involve.org.uk/resources/methods   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter:  Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/  And to email us: [email protected]  IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales   The Facilitation Stories Team:  Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/    Transcript N.W Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (NW) and today I'm going to be talking to Suzannah Lansdell (SL) about public dialogue. So welcome, Suzannah.    S.L Thanks, Nikki, lovely to be here.    N.W Okay, so to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.   S.L So I'm a freelance facilitator, I've been doing that for about 15 years or so. I started, and so how I got into it just as a bit of context, as it sort of helps a bit with the public dialogue is, I started working for an environment charity back in the 90s. And I was doing a lot of work then with businesses, convincing them that there were commercial implications around environment sustainability issues. But one part of that the charity had was also about consensus building, about how do you get different organisations to approach environment sustainability issues, that at that time in the 90s, were very kind of adversarial in a more kind of consensus based approach. And absolutely core to that was facilitation, as a way to, to break through that more adversarial approach. So then I started working a lot on that and I kind of cut my teeth on some of the big issues of the day, things like nuclear waste, oil disposal, oil infrastructure disposal, biotechnology. So some really kind of big issues where people were on opposing sides and a facilitative approach helped people to kind of have more constructive conversations and find a way through. So that's kind of where I cut my teeth. And then moving on, what I'm much more doing now is that I advise and I support organisations on how they do public and stakeholder dialogue, and particularly around public dialogue work for an organisation called Science wise, that looks at public dialogue around science and technology. But I also do some kind of keeping my oar in on the practice in terms of facilitating citizens assemblies, and other kind of processes involved with the public. And then a little spattering of training in facilitation and a little bit of kind of charity away days, but most of my work at the moment is around the kind of public dialogue in science and technology.   N.W Okay, great. And that was a very neat segue into today's topic, which is about public dialogue. So for listeners that aren't familiar with this term, what do we mean by public dialogue?   S.L I suppose in its simplest terms, it's a process where you've got members of the public coming together with specialists and policymakers and other stakeholders to deliberate and have conversations about usually kind of complex or controversial topics. And they do that over several hours, so this is not a focus group, it's not kind of Top of Mind views. It's digging behind that. So you give people a lot of time to think about the issues and to have conversations with those specialists, but also fellow participants. So probably people are maybe deliberating over 10 hours or a couple of weekends. It can be online, it can be face to face, it can be a bit of a mix of both. The key purpose is to get those insights from the public to feed into kind of a decision whether that be a policy or whether that be a strategy. And some people might have heard of the term of mini Publics, so it sort of fits within that frame of mini Publics. And we could talk a bit more about who's the public in this. The key difference that I see with public dialogue is that unlike, for example, citizens  juries or citizens assemblies, we don't usually ask people to come up with or vote on recommendations or come up with specific recommendations. It's much more that they're kind of invited to explore that issue and then there are insights that come from that, but it's not taking it to that kind of final this is what this group of people think and vote on.   N.W And so who would normally be the sort of Commissioner of the public dialogue who would bring those groups together?    S.L It would be a decision maker. So it'd be somebody that has some traction over that issue. It might be that they own the policy or that they own the strategy the public dialogue is feeding into. So that could be a government department, it could be a Research Council, it could be a regulator. So usually at that sort of level.   N.W And you touched on this a moment ago, but mini publics as it were, who normally would get involved in these, and how would they get involved?   S.L Yeah, so I think what's really important to know with public dialogue, or indeed any of those mini publics is that these are not public participants that choose to sign up, because they've seen it in their local paper or something, they are kind of randomly recruited to take part in this process. So what you're trying to do is to get a reflective group of the population to be part of these processes, and they're paid to attend. So you're getting over that slight bias that you might have, if you have a local meeting, for example, where just those people with the time and the inclination, and already with an interest in the topic turn up. So you're recruiting them kind of randomly, and that might be that they are approached on the street and it might be that they are approached through some kind of invitation. So usually, for example, on citizens assemblies, they're approached through a sortition approach, which is, you randomly receive an invitation through the post. Most public dialogues, it's recruited sort of on the street. And then you're looking for a kind of demographic, as I say, that kind of reflects the population, whether that be gender, whether that be where people are from, it might be things like whether the urban and rural split, it might be to do with the age profile, so that you've sort of got a little mini public in the room that you're having that conversation within.   N.W Have you got any examples of recent topics that you've seen covered in a public dialogue, just to bring that to life, I suppose.   S.L Well certainly. So the science wise work that I work on, it's, I mean, as you might expect, it's kind of around science and tech innovation, sorts of topics. So some of the recent ones have been things like embryo research, and where that goes in the future. Future flight technologies. So there's a whole new area of kind of innovation around future flight and what does the public think about where that might go? BioMed adaptation has been another one. Lots around kind of data, what do people think about data that is held on them or data that might be used? Where are the boundaries around that? And through things like genome editing in farmed animals, so a real range across that sort of science and tech space.    N.W So obviously, we've talked about the commissioners and the public involved in this, but this is facilitation stories. So what would you say the role of facilitators is in a public dialogue? And how, in your experience, is that different from other types of facilitation?   S.L So I suppose, obviously, there's the core basics of facilitation, that are the same, but I suppose, for me, the real the things that really stands out are that, absolutely, as with lots of other facilitation, your view on a topic has to really stand down you can't be seen to influence the process in one way or another. And when some of those topics they're very kind of emotive. Another thing is that because you've got a group of the public there, so I suppose those two things, you're likely to be part of a bigger team. So the number of participants involved in a public dialogue might be, it might be 30, but it may well be closer to sort of 100. So there's a team of facilitators, you've got a group on your table, say if you're just a table facilitator of seven or eight participants, and they're public participants who, it's not like if you were, say, working in with an organisation where you might have a bit of insight as to who's going to pop up on your table, you might have people there who are really not confident in speaking or, or who might have literacy challenges, or who might have English as a second language. So you've got to sort of adapt to that group of participants that you have, and work with them to build their confidence to express their views about the sorts of issues that are under consideration. And then I think this notion that you're part of a team of facilitators, you're all doing the sort of similar process on separate tables, and that is part of a bigger jigsaw piece. So you sort of got to manage how your group is responding to those questions and that plan that you've got, and knowing that you need to kind of get to an output for that specific section, because it fits together into the whole jigsaw piece of the whole process. So I think that that's an interesting dynamic. It's not like you're there and you're kind of controlling the whole space. Of course, I'm talking there about a table facilitator and then there's the kind of facilitator who's kind of orchestrating the whole piece as well. I mean it's fascinating working with the public, that's the bit that I just find so interesting is giving people the opportunity to have their voice heard in these issues and people love it. But as a facilitator kind of getting to the point where people are comfortable to do that is interesting.    N.W Yeah, I mean, I haven't mentioned as we've been talking, but I have facilitated in these environments. And I think one of the things that I always find so fascinating is that you can have a whole load of different groups essentially following the same framework and process and they will come out with completely different things, or they will respond to the materials in completely different ways. And you've got such a close comparison, because they're all in the room together with half an hour, or whatever it is, and I just find that fascinating, or I've done some where I've done the same process two nights in a row with different groups. And literally, it's nothing to do with how I facilitated it because I was the same person. But yeah, so interesting to see how different groups respond to the material.   S.L And sorry, I was just going to say. And also giving people the opportunity, because of course, you've got a mini public there. They, the participants themselves are meeting people that are from all sorts of different walks of life, and seeing how they reflect also on other people's contribution and how that adjusts their views. And again, that, for me, is one of the key things about public dialogue, as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply.   N.W Yeah, absolutely. And again, I mean, we've touched on this a little bit, but obviously, this can often be about quite complex subject matter, you've given some examples at the beginning, and the participants will have varying degrees of prior knowledge. So obviously, giving them some information is one of the key things in this, what have you seen works particularly well, in how you present that information to people and perhaps not so well?    S.L So yeah, absolutely, you kind of have to give people enough information that they can deliberate on it, but not so much and that for me is the real critical point is that it's boiling it down into what is the appropriate level of detail, participants don't need to have a PhD in the topic. And they very quickly, participants really quickly kind of get to grips with what the topic is. So for me, the really crucial things is that you have to have specialists from a diversity of perspectives. So that participants can kind of reach into the corners of the issues and what the different kind of takes are on that. And I know most of the time it is done through some form of kind of presentation. But it's really important to pick your specialists well, that they can talk in an accessible way or brief them well to do that, and make sure that you know what it is that they're saying, that you get to look at their slides beforehand and make sure that it is accessible. It's not kind of reams and reams of really detailed stuff. But other ways in which the worst sorts of information imparting are where you have a really long, dense presentation. So that's designed out. You tend to give it in small bite sized, probably no more than 10 minute type of talks, you layer up the sort of information that you're giving to people so that they've got these sort of bite sized chunks, and they're hearing from different perspectives. But as well as hearing from different perspectives, you sometimes in public dialogues, you can also interview people before the dialogue and put that into provocation, kind of cards or animations or sort of pictorial scenarios so that people can access the information in different sorts of ways. What's really crucial is that they hear from different perspectives, they get a chance to sort of question and interrogate that, and it's not in a kind of overly complex way. So that's the real skill of who's designing the whole process, is making sure that we're hearing the right sort of information enough for participants to get to grips with it, but not so much that they're just listening to reams and reams of presentations, because that's not the point. The point is not to kind of come out with an educated public. The point is, is that we want to hear what participants kind of deliberations and insights on having known enough about the topic.   N.W yeah, and I suppose almost that instinctive reaction or whatever it is that they have picked out from a presentation that's most important for them is a valuable insight in the first place is that, actually what is it that they're taking away from all of the information they've been given?    S.L Yep. What's really nice is if you have the opportunity and the processes, which because they're run over a number of sessions you can often do this, is to ask participants also what might be missing or what they might have to revisit. And, again, if you've got a specialist sort of in the room, whether that's a virtual or real room, using them as a kind of resource to be able to pull on as well is really important.   N.W Yeah, I think that we perhaps haven't made that clear that quite often those experts will give a presentation but then they are still available to chip in, to answer questions, to clarify bits. So that's really interesting, too. Yeah. And again, so while it's not unique to public dialogue, I think something that a lot of the processes involve is a really kind of structured evaluation. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? And how it sort of fits in the overall process?   S.L Yeah, yeah and certainly for science wise public dialogue. So just actually, to really quickly scale back. So science wise supports government departments, research councils to do public dialogue and kind of mentor supports those organisations, but also provides some co-funding. So there's always an independent evaluation that sits alongside that public dialogue. And that both I think, quite uniquely, for this evaluation, it sits at the beginning, and it can give sort of formative input throughout the process as it's being designed. But also it produces a kind of summative evaluation at the end. So what is it that participants have felt? What is it that specialists have felt? So gathering all of that data like you might do, usually in a kind of evaluation. So it's more than just observing the sessions, doing a participant survey and reporting on that. And the other thing that I think is kind of really important is, again, certainly for science wise dialogues is that there's a sort of interim report when the dialogue report comes out. But then we go back or the evaluator goes back six months later, and says, right, what was the impact of this public dialogue? And that, to me, is really, really crucial so that you know where has it influenced? You said at the beginning, that this was going to be something that inputted into this policy, or that inputted into this strategy. Six months on what has happened? Have those impacts happened? Have other things happened that have been as a result of that public dialogue process?    N.W And I suppose with that in mind, have you got any examples of where you've seen really specific big changes that have come out of those that you can sort of share? So obviously, a lot of them are still in progress.   S.L Yeah, sure. Well, I suppose the one that quite often is, is quoted and this is going back a little way. I mean if you look at the science wise website, there's always the evaluation reports are up there as well. And they, certainly the more recent ones, kind of capture those impacts. So it might be that it's led to a whole raft of new social science research. But one of the ones particularly that's quoted is around something called mitochondrial transfer, and this was quite a controversial area of research. A public dialogue was held which helped inform. Then the recommendations of what was the human fertilisation embryology authority, the HFEA , who regulates all of that, and that then fed into changing the law on what was allowed in terms of this mitochondrial transfer. Whilst they would have done other stakeholder work, they would have listened to what experts thought about this, actually hearing about what the public thought, whether this was the right way to go, what were the sorts of limits? What were the red lines? What sort of conditions should be in place? Formed a really kind of core plank of then what that recommendation and ultimately, the kind of law change signifies. So it can have some big impacts and what I see a lot with public dialogue, and we'll kind of think about this into the future is, lots of government agencies, or any key decision making authority is really familiar with thinking about how they involve their kind of traditional stakeholders. But thinking about how they really hear from what the public thinks is a more tricky area for them to grapple with. So public dialogue provides one route in which they can really understand, what do the public think about this having had a bit more time to think about it. What drives their concerns or their hopes or their aspirations around this particular topic? And that, for me, is always the missing pieces, like, how are we hearing the public voice in this new development? Because it's not a given that that will always happen.    N.W And so, I suppose building on that then, are there particular trends or developments that you're seeing happening currently or on the horizon for public dialogue? Where do you think it could go?   S.L So I mean, I hope, and I think that there will be a move towards this. Rather than this being something that is a sort of almost optional add on, or specifically for some topics that are quite high profile, or kind of think that they might be controversial, but actually, it becomes a much more embedded part of both policy and strategy. So that rather than 'Oh, crikey, we need to think about doing a public dialogue', but it's something that's just automatically built into the policy strategy development process for those topics. So it's not saying that it should be used in every circumstance, but that it's much more kind of part of the normal suite of tools that policy makers will be thinking about, that there's that check. Oh, hang on a minute, how are we thinking about public voice? Do we need to do a public dialogue? Do we need to do some other kinds of, you know , how are we going to get that public insight into the development of our policies? Doing public dialogue is about making better decisions by getting public insight into that process. I think the other thing that I would just say is that I think increasingly, whilst the approach is about making better decisions, better policies, I think it will become more clearly linked with sort of a democratic process that ultimately, certainly, if we're talking about science and tech, whether we're talking about climate change with, for example, citizens assemblies, on climate change,that these are things that are affecting people, participant people day to day. If there's a new science or tech development, it's helping us and a lot of that research is funded by the public. So where's the sort of right, almost for the public to have a more considered, say, in the development of those areas?   N.W And I think what you say there is interesting as well, because obviously a lot of this is technical information. But in the main, there are ways that people find it does relate to their day to day life in some way. And I think that's another quite important tool potentially, is making it feel like something that people have a grounding in their daily life,even if they don't know all of the technical details, isn't it? So they can deliberate with their own perspective on that?.   S.L Absolutely, I mean, those examples I gave before, they're about the food that we eat, or about the impact of climate on our infrastructure. They're about what we think is right, or how far science should go. If we're looking at AI, or we're looking at these exciting, but also fast developments that are happening in science and tech, there has to be, and this is why I talk about quite often with the people thinking about commissioning, it's got to align with social values. If it's really out of step with that, I think we saw that a lot with GM in the early 2000s, then people start getting really concerned about it. So what's right? What's wrong? Or how should it go? Where are the sorts of red lines? What are the sorts of conditions under which this technology should develop? could develop? shouldn't develop? Understanding that for a policymaker, or for strategies is kind of gold dust really.   N.W Excellent, well, I mean, it's all so fascinating, we could probably talk all day about it, but    S.L Just scratched the surface .   N.W Exactly. And with that in mind, if listeners want to find out more about public dialogue, what would you say the best places to look?   S.L So I would say there's two. Obviously, I've talked quite a lot about science wise, and sciencewise.org.uk is the website,there's a lot there about public dialogue, but also lots of reports from previous public dialogues. And then the other place that I always kind of point people towards is the involve website. So if you just Google involve, and particularly, I think it's involve.org.uk .Particularly their methods and Resource Bank section. So the methods obviously covers lots of methods, but their resource section there is super useful and that will also touch on things which we haven't delved into as much here, sort of citizens assemblies, citizens juries and other sorts of, kind of public participation processes.   N.W Right. And we can put those links in the show notes as well. And, and if listeners would like to find out more specifically about your work or get in touch with you, what would you suggest?   S.L Look me up on LinkedIn as a start. Okay, that's probably the easiest, easiest place really.   N.W Well, we'll put that in the show notes too. So thank you so much, Suzannah, for your time and your contribution today. It's been really interesting to chat to you.    S.L Thank you, Nikki.    N.W Thank you again. Have a lovely day. Bye.   Outro   So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast, IAF England and Wales.   If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website, facilitationstories.com.  And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?    We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about send us an email at [email protected]   We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories. Until then, thank you for listening  

In this episode Helene talks to Paul Brand, Director of Risk Solutions and part of the IAF England and Wales Leadership Team, Board member and conference team member. They talk about  The IAF England and Wales facilitators and friends Facilitate 2024 Conference (April 26th & 27th 2024) and what it is all about. Who is on the organising team and what Paul's role has been What is different from last year's conference What kinds of sessions we can expect What he is looking forward to A bit about the participants some of whom are coming from outsde the UK How the IAF England and Wales conferences have grown over the years and what makes them successful "it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that." "what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference".  A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest was Dr Paul Brand https://www.linkedin.com/in/drpaulbrand/ [email protected]  https://risksol.co.uk/  Today's subject The Facilitate 2024 Conference https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/facilitate2024-growingtogether-tickets-733547288687?aff=oddtdtcreator  To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales  The Facilitation Stories Team Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/  Transcript Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell and today I'm talking to Paul Brand,a management consultant whose work focuses on public policy. He often works on long term engagements across entire sectors for multi organisation communities, and uses facilitation extensively in his work. He's also an IAF England Wales board member, certified professional facilitator and a member of the conference planning team. Welcome, Paul. Good morning. It is morning. It is morning. Good. It is morning. It is morning. So my first question is just to ask you, really to tell us a little bit more about you as a facilitator and your involvement in the IAF. So I came into facilitation like a lot of people, not quite realizing I was doing it, doing a lot of public policy consulting things, and needing somebody who would lead groups of people through discussions. And then that became a better understanding of what facilitation as a profession was all about. And that grew and grew over the years. I did a long piece of work in the about 2011 2012, working with a very senior IAF board member. We did a lot of events together, and during that time I understood what the IAF was about and realized I needed to actually make my facilitation skills part of my professional development formally. So I did the IAF certified professional facilitator thing in 2012, which was quite a developmental experience in itself, and I keep that up to this day. And then over the last four or five years, I've become more and more involved in the workings of IAF, in England and Wales particularly, and have also had the privilege of attending a couple of the european conferences in Paris and Milan, finding out how our colleagues across the channel do it. So it's been an arc of development. Yeah, an arc of development slowly, slowly coming further and further in. And obviously we're here today to talk about the about conference. So let's start off with the kind of, the basic stuff. So IAF England and Wales conference in April, I guess. What do we need to know? The dates, where it is, what is it all about? So it is Friday and Saturday, the 26th and 27 April. And for quite a few years now, we've done this Friday Saturday mix seems to balance that. Some of the people, depending on their work and professional lives, some of them can, you know, share those two days, rather than it being two days out mid week or two days at a weekend. It is in Birmingham it is at a venue called the Priory rooms, which is quite close to the middle of Birmingham. It's very easy to get to, and it's two full days, the Friday and the Saturday. It is quite broadly based. We had about 70 people last year. As of yesterday, we've got 100 people coming this year, and we're going to have to cap it at 120 for venue reasons, which is a really nice, really nice set of challenges to have. That is. That is. So there are a few more tickets. We are recording this a little bit before the conference, obviously, but there are, at the moment, a few tickets left. It's about 20 whole two day tickets left. We have to stop it at 120 because just moving that many people around the venue, because of the safe of it, becomes a limit on that. You can book single day tickets. So even after full tickets closed, there might be some one day tickets left. There's about ten or 15 people coming on one day or the other, but most people are there for the two days. Fantastic. And so obviously, a lot of work goes into organizing the conference. I know that we worked quite closely together doing the hybrid conference of years ago. Tell us a little bit about the organizing team. Who's on it? What do they do? How have you kind of made things work from behind the scenes? So the conference team is all volunteers. Obviously, everything in this group is. It is so two thirds people who are also on the England and Wales leadership group. So they have wider interest in the if group and some people who just do the conference. The core of it, of course, is the people who put the program together, which is a team of three or four people. And so this year, with this sort of numbers, we're running four parallel tracks during most of those two days. And there are four very, very broad sort of types of session. They're all interactive sessions. There's no big lectures at this conference, but there's a thread which is learning facilitation tools, techniques, skills, that kind of thing. There's a thread which are sessions which are about growing and personal development and reflection. There's a thread which is about work and business, professional development, everything from how to run a business, because quite a lot of people are freelancers in this thing, as opposed to working in house. And what the differences are there, even down to, you know, how do we think about charging for our time, depending on the context? And then we've got a fourth thread this year, which is actually on the whole area of diversity, inclusivity, lived experience, and what do we need to learn as facilitators in this generation about how we handle those issues, even if that's not the topic of the discussion. You might be doing a session on something very engineering or very management based, but how are you managing diversity, inclusion and dealing with people's lived experience in different areas? So there's quite a variety of stuff. There's four parallel tracks. There's no big lectures. There's some opening and closing sessions and any sense of how many. You probably do know this, I expect it's written down somewhere. But how many different sessions are there altogether? 30 ish, because we're running, apart from the opening and closing each day, we're running four tracks all the time from, like, from when we set off on the Friday morning until Saturday afternoon. And there's a closing plenary, so there's about 30 dishes to take from the buffet and you can go to about a quarter of those. If you. If you went to a session in every slot, you could go to about a quarter of that number. But then there'll be other ways of accessing some of that material and talking to other people and stuff. So it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that. That sounds like there's so much to choose from and that's the important thing, isn't it? You're not sort of channeled in a particular direction. You can choose what you want to suit you. I would say what's quite interesting, because I was at a session this morning talking with some of the session leaders. We've got quite a few people who are not only coming for the conference for the first time, but they're jumping in the deep end and are doing a session and this is their first contact with IAF. So that's quite exciting and quite brave of them. It is. I was going to ask, actually, how many people doing sort of offering sessions have not done it before? Because some people do offer sessions sort of fairly regularly at the IAF conferences. We counted it up last year and we reckoned it split about a third. A third? A third. A third of the people were, you know, connected into IAF. They were probably members, they were involved in something, that kind of thing. There was about a third who we might count as IAF friends. They. This wasn't their first IAF event experience. They. Maybe they come to meetups or they'd been to a previous conference or they knew somebody. And about a third of the people last year, they had just heard of this conference, they just heard of IAF and they came along, and that was their first baptism of fire, if you like. So I don't know if the balance is the same yesterday, but there's certainly, there's that breadth coming that's really nice and really good that there's sort of some, I guess, old hands, if you like, that are sort of really familiar with. Very politely put, helen, very experienced facilitators who are coming back to share their wisdom again and some new faces. My really strong memory last year was a young woman who came from another country. We'll talk about that in a minute. She contacted us very hesitant, said, I'm not from the UK. I studied in the UK. I want to come over and see my university friends. I want to come to the conference. What do you think about me doing a session? Would it be okay? I'm not that experienced as a facilitator, and I'm really new to IAF, so we encouraged her to come over and go for it. She was really quite frightened when she turned up on the day. She was brilliant. It was a lovely session. It was really, really good, because one of the things that happens is everybody coming to this conference in the past, they realize that they've been on the other side of this. So there's a willingness to explore new ground with someone who's been trying to facilitate something and encourage them and go along with their process and their game or whatever it is. So it becomes a very positive place even to try something completely new, even if you're very nervous. And I'm sure that will happen again this year. We'll have someone doing that. And I know I've always felt, when I've gone to the conferences before, really felt that actually, that it's quite, the phrase is a little bit overused, safe space to actually explore and experiment and have a go. And it's a really supportive community, isn't it? So, you know, nobody's going to turn around and go, oh, no, I didn't like that. You know, there may be some reflective comments and all the rest of it, but it's all very, very supportive. So, yeah, if you are jumping in for the first time, and that's an intentional sort of cultural feel of the conference that I think we've tried to maintain certainly since, I mean, the first one I went to was 2019, and that feeling was already there, you know, and when you've got people who are everything from, you know, the kind of work I do in the public sector with being industry clients, but we've got people who are deeply involved in social. Social interaction, you know, social issues of mental health, all those kind of areas, or they're working with people in deprivation. You've got people working in the private sector, and there's an openness to say this is interesting. It's not the kind of work I do, but I really found what you did there really thoughtful, and maybe I can translate that back into my world. That's one of the things I love most about these two days. And I guess that's facilitation in general, isn't it, though? It's such a broad array of different, you know, there's so many different ways to look at it, different takes on it. So it's really nice that there's that appetite to kind of bring that huge range together in one place. Nice. Okay. And are you able to. I know you're doing a session, aren't you? I was just going to say, could you maybe give us one or two, a flavor of one or two of the sessions you think are coming up? Tell us about your session, maybe from the four tracks. I know there are people coming and teaching particular skills. I think we've got someone doing some of the ICA facilitation technique stuff and demonstrating some of that. There are people. There's one. One. Someone's going to do something on the thinking organization, which I'm pretty sure is based on the work of Nancy Klein. Go Google, Nancy Klein thinking organization. We're going to do one myself and one of my fellow resolutions, Helen and Amelia Wakeford, who's also in the IAF group, we have found as a little trio that a lot of what we're doing now could be put under the very, very broad umbrella of systems thinking. It's thinking about how different parts of an organization fit together to do something, getting people out of siloed organizations in local government or central government or charity, whatever. And it's a big focus in the public sector now, particularly from the chief scientific advisors. So we're going to do a session that looks at the breadth of what falls under that umbrella of system thinking, everything from rich pictures right the way through to people who actually put numbers and money and things into them. We'll have a little go and we'll probably go into the area of what if the system is complex, or we'll talk about wicked problems and stuff like that. How far can you go with this, especially? Maybe you've got limited time and energy and money and actually start to deal with the complexity in systems rather than simplifying it out and then ignoring it and then wondering why it doesn't work. Well, it's because you took all the complexity out of it. So that'll be a fun hands on session, and it's something we do a lot of. Brilliant. I think I quite like the look of your session, actually. The program is coming out for the conference very, very soon. It's being formed up now, so very soon it'll be on social media and everybody will be able to see what's going on. Great. Okay. What specifically are you looking forward to? I think you sort of mentioned a couple of minutes ago that, you know, that the whole sort of diversity of different, you know, seeing lots of different people doing different types of facilitation. But what else are you looking forward to from the conference? Probably don't say it being over and you not having to organize it anymore. No, that's not really a big thing. Everybody's tired on the Saturday night. Yes. Content side. I like the fact that over the weekend I can go to something intentionally that I think I know nothing about what they're going to do. It's going to be completely alien. Let's go and see. Let's go and play. Let's go and explore that. And whenever I do that, something completely different to what I do, I always come away with maybe two or three bullets. And I'm thinking, that's really interesting. I can use that in what I do. The second thing, and I'm going to give you three. Good to have threes. Second thing is I love watching other people do it. I know people at the conference, but then you go and watch them do a session, and there's always something to learn about it could be the style they do it, the way they talk about it. It could be the method. It could be this way. I love watching other people facilitate because we don't always get to do that. You know, so often you have to do your stuff and do your way, and watching anybody doing it the way they do it gives you some interesting things to learn. And then the last thing is, because of the nature of the conference that we've talked about, I'm just really enthused over two days to watch people eating and drinking, if you like. I don't mean the food, I mean the content of the process, the energy we put into organizing it. There is a lot of energy in putting the content together. But what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference. We will never know all the things, but I've really enjoyed over the three or four I've been involved in, watching the people go in, eat effectively, eat and drink the context of the experience, and then go away full and enthused. And then you watch the communications in the weeks afterwards on social media, on LinkedIn or whatever, you're in contact with them and how the buzz carries on. And, you know, last year we had 70 people. This year we've got 100. We haven't even announced the program yet. That is word of mouth. A lot of it is people who came last year or the year before and have said they're coming and have told somebody else, and now they're coming, too, which I think is brilliant. And that says quite a lot about us as a community. I think about how we kind of interact with each other and how we talk about all this stuff. And I do remember thinking about that, your sort of third thing you're looking forward to last year, certainly feeling that energy, and you're right, that buzz afterwards. And it is a very energizing and, you know, slightly exhausting as well. But there's always two sides of the same thing, but that sort of real energy, feeling very energized. And then, as you say, yeah, just talking about it for ages afterwards and meeting some amazing people, it's a really great space to do that. Okay. And thinking about the people then that are coming. I think this year we've also got quite a few people, or some people at least, who are coming from outside the UK, quite a long way outside the UK as well. We're, of course, immensely privileged in running a conference in English as our home language. And never forget that english people, how privileged you are about to have that in that. That means other people, if they've got English as a second language, can come and join in, which is more challenging. I would be really challenged this week at the conference in Italy because that's going to be in Italian. So we often had people, I remember people coming from Holland last year with Belgium and one of the others. This has been very interesting. There's someone coming from, if Italy, Tanzania, South Africa, Hong Kong. And we might have somebody coming from one of the Middle east chapters. We're not quite sure. These are people who've got to get visas to come to the UK. They can't just jump on a plane and come. Those are the four or five. I know about. There might be others because I haven't seen the full ticketing list. And these are people who want to come and get some of what we've been talking about before and take it home. So I talked to people last year from one or two other countries. One of their objectives of coming was to say, we've heard about the way this conference runs. We'd like to come and experience it and then maybe take a bit of that back and do that where we are. And one country particularly, I don't think it had a conference for some years, and this year in May, they're doing one day as a start, but they're going to do that. Another, they don't know they're doing conferences in their country, and they've taken bits of what we've done and said, oh, yeah, we could do a bit like that as well, mold it to their own culture and their own local needs. So that's a real privilege to have people coming in for those reasons. That's amazing and really good that those people and other people presumably see it, see this conference and see, you know, what's been happening over the last few years when we've been doing conferences as something that is, I don't know, maybe inspirational, maybe, you know, it's something that other people can take something from, as you say, which is really exciting. So it's not just the day or two days. It's got legs. It's, you know, reaching out a lot further. I went whatever year it was, I went to the european IAF conference, all the european chapters in Milan. And so because it was a european conference, they did it in English, not in Italian. Normally they do it in Italian, and it had a very similar feel in some ways. They were obviously tapping into some of the same things that we're seeing as valuable in terms of their choice of venue and the way they ran it and stuff. This very, very open approach to conference for facilitation, I think has some real payoffs, real benefits. And so I think this is about maybe the 7th or so England and Wales conference that we have put on, because I remember quite a few years ago there being sort of large meetups that have slowly, over the years, morphed into actual big conferences like this. And I know there have also been several IAF european conferences as you just sort of talked about. Obviously, they've grown. They've become, you know, it sounds like they've become definitely more of a, you know, people know about them a lot more. You know, what do you attribute this success to. Why do you think the, if England and Wales conferences are successful, have become successful, hopefully continue to be successful? There's probably a few things. One is it's easier to do this if you've got a single common language and a big pool you can draw on. So that's easy. There's been a series of leaders in IAF, England and Wales since way before my time, who have started to foster this idea of the conference. It's only one of the things IAF does, does the podcast and meetups, and this kind of thing being something that the local chapter in the country sees not as a gathering just for the members. It's not a club meeting. It's part of the expression of the IAF aim of promoting the power of facilitation and promoting professional development for facilitators. And so it's become very intentionally IAF England and Wales, and friends, and the friends are as important as the members in this, in terms of their contribution to the event. So it's a community, it's based around the IAF England and Wales chapter, but it's got a large open tent at the sides. The comparison I did, someone said a little, it's like going to a music festival. Go to Glastonbury, there's the people who are in the tent. If you go to the big tents of Glastonbury, there's always another 4000 people just around the tent, and they're enjoying the concert and taking part in it as well. And they're just as much a part of it, even though theyre not, or not yet perhaps members in that sense. But weve got people deeply involved in the conference programme who are not IAF members, but theyre deeply committed to the if England and Wales and friends community. And thats been an intentional principle, at least back to 2017, 1819, somewhere around there. And so its done from an attitude of generosity and giving, you know, as the eye of England and Wales, not as a, a club, and you must be a member. And all this kind of thing, which we love people becoming members, we love people using the professional development in IAF. I do it all, but it's a possession then to give, not to hold it all tight. So makes it a little bit messier, a little bit untidy, and I think all the better for it. But if we avoided all the messiness and untidiness, we'd never do anything. We'd have an association that was, you know, constantly trying to work out where its next ten members came from. And I think that always. It does feel like that's always been. Ever since I've been part of IAF, certainly the England and Wales chapter, there's always been quite an inclusive way of doing things. So all the meetups, you know, invite other people, you know, it's never been an only member's sort of way of doing things. And I think it's really nice because also, facilitation is huge, isn't it? It's got, as you say, where's the tent stop? That concept reflects the nature of the job we do in facilitation as well. And, you know, some of those people, if you think of it like an onion, people come in, some people come into the edge of it and come to a conference and they go away. We never see them again, or they come to a meetup. And some people get much closer in. Some people are very embedded in the if England and Wales and friends community, and some of those people become members. We also get people who become members of IAF and come to the community through that door. And one thing I always say to people about membership is come to receive and to learn, but come to give. If you look at the IAF competencies and principles, quite a few, quite a bit of it is about what you're giving to the profession of facilitation and encouraging other people, particularly, obviously, as you go on and perhaps gain more experience. And you never have a bigger shovel, as they say, when you start giving to a thing like this, you always get back more than you shuffled in. Definitely. No, it sounds really exciting. I'm really looking forward to coming, and I'm really looking forward to meeting some people I know and chatting about stuff that, you know, we know about. And also, I think, more importantly, meeting people that I don't know, hearing new stuff, hearing about new ways of doing things. I think it's great that there's, you know, there's four different tracks and four different options. I am going to struggle to decide what to put on my buffet plate because I always do. But, yeah, really looking forward to it. Thank you so much, Paul, for talking to me today. Any last plugs? Anything else we need to know about the conference before, before we wrap up? I think the big question we're having at the moment in the conference group is, what on earth do we do if more than 120 people want to come next year, what would we do? But that's a problem. For further down the line, the program is pretty much done. We're now getting into the stage of there's a list of small things that need to be done, like what do we need to print and all that kind of thing. But it's just been wonderful to see the people booking in and the variety of people. It's one of my most enjoyable weekends of the year. Yay. I'm really excited. Well, I look forward to seeing you there. Thank you so much. Thank you, Helen. Good to talk to.  

In epsode Bogdan tells us about himself as a facilitator and trainer, what it means to be a playful facilitator and his journey into facilitation.  He tells Nikki and Helene about how IAF Romania and how it all began, from joining IAF in 2018 to getting intouch with other facilitatrors in Romania. With the start of the pandemic 2 years later and everyone had more time he found out what was needed to start a chapter, and started IAF Romania with Bogdan as the Chair.  Since 2020 the chaoter has grown to 27 members, with more facilitators wanting to be a part of the community. The growth has happened in terms of quality of events as well as numbers.  Facilitation is not well known in Romania and not well known in organisations.  Bogdan talks about engaging new people to the world of facilitation, organising events and enabling people to make connections and talks in more detail about some of the events they have hosted for example Open Space in HR.  They also have a group mentoring programme and how that works. They have two types of approaches - one for the community and one for the IAF Romania members. Most events are co-facilitated so there is a lot of learning.  Some examples of the events are: Training about having impact in online facilitation - Nelson from Portugal. Pop up sharing around a particular topic. Facilitators Studio - where someone can bring a new design to try out. Facilitator Lab - helping two facilitators to create something together. An example of this is AI and facilitation.  The core members of 10/12 come up with the ideas for all the events and build the ideas together. They plan to have their first in person event - a facilitation festival in the autumn.  Bogdan talks about collaborations with other IAF Chapters and explains how these have worked: Twin Chapters with IAF Italy Facilitation Lightening Talks, some of which were with IAF Ireland and IAF Italy He talks extensively about the collaboration with IAF Japan and the 9 or 10 meetings that were needed to set this up and the cultural learning points.  Helene asks Bogdan to talk about his role in IAF Europe and Middle East as part of the share and learn team and the benefits of bringing together different cultures and facilitation experience.  Bogdan talks about what next for IAF Romania - elections, continued focus on mentoring, sending chapters from the Power of Facilitation book out in their newsletter which they have translated into Romanian.  Bogdan lastly talks about his hope for the future and the facilitation festival.  To contact Bogdan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bogdangrigore82/ IAF Romania: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/romania https://www.linkedin.com/company/iaf-romania-international-association-of-facilitators-romanian-chapter/?originalSubdomain=ro  The Power of Facilition:  https://facpower.org/2021/06/01/what-is-the-power-of-facilitation-and-why-is-it-important/  Lightening Talks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOrr9Sj17U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tluzc03l4sM Celebrating Diversity with IAF Japan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctxQou8F9w Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Find Nikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/  Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/   Email: [email protected]  

In this episode Helene talks to Deborah Deborah Rim Moiso from SessionLab about their recent survey and report. Deborah shares her experience as a freelance facilitator and discusses her mentoring program with IAF and her passion for facilitating multistakeholder projects on nature conservation, climate change, and youth training. She talks about how in 2022, the first global survey of facilitators was conducted by Session Lab, gathering data on who facilitators are, where they are, and their age. It was initiated by Session Lab to address the lack of data on facilitators, despite reports existing for other professions like UX design. This survey looks at Facilitation trends and insights from a global survey.  Facilitators were surveyed globally, with 1000 responses from diverse regions, including Japan. The report was well-received, with new questions added to better understand learning pathways to facilitation, and feedback from contributors and experts. Deborah talks about the role of expert commentators and how they condensed the data and provided insights, asking questions and challenging assumptions to open discussions and conversations. Deborah describes some of the key findings from the report including Facilitation industry trends and AI adoption. One standout reflection from the report is the generosity of the facilitation community in providing answers, despite the lengthy survey process. Deborah discusses some of the other insights from the report including: Online vs in-person sessions Facilitators delivering shorter sessions Representation, professionalisation and diversity The facilitation industry and accreditation programs The importance of including younger perspectives in the facilitation profession To contact Deborah: email [email protected] To read the 2024 State of Facilitation Report: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/?utm_source=IAF-Podcast&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=sof To help SessionLab promote the project: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/promo-kit/ If you have any questions about the report or the data behind it, or want to contribute to the next edition, get in touch with us at [email protected]. Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/   Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories  Email: [email protected] 

In this episode Helene talks to Jamie Colston - father, facilitator, poet and systemic constellations practitioner about his work using Systemic Constellations, both Family Constellations and in organisations.  He talks about how he got into the work in the first place, the training he has done and the practise he does and some of what he has coming up next. He shares some examples of how he uses it and in terms of facilitation he suggests it is most akin to Open Space Technology.  You can find Jamie here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiecolston/  Jamie Colston https://www.jamiecolston.com/  Centre for Systemic Constellations - https://www.thecsc.net/ The Whole Partnership - https://www.wholepartnership.com/      

Today we're introducing a new quarterly feature "Chapter Chat". As many listeners know, the England and Wales chapter is just one of the many IAF volunteer-led chapters globally, all working within 6 regions across 65 countries. While all chapters are united under the IAF vision and operate in accordance to the IAF Code of Ethics they are all run in a slightly different way, and reflect the context they're working within. So alongside our episodes capturing individual facilitators' stories, each quarter we're going to chat to people leading other chapters, about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. To kick us off, we have a special episode reflecting on a year of facilitation in the EME region, where Helene and Nikki talk to Tamara Zivadinovic Regional Director of the Europe and Middle East Region of the IAF. Tamara talks about her own facilitation practise, how she got involved in IAF and her her journey to becoming Regional Director.  She explains to Helene and Nikki what are your main responsibilities are as regional Director and what has been happening in the Region over the last year. She talks about celebrating the many IAF volunteers and about her proudest moments as Regional Director. Tamara shares what is coming up in 2024, her hopes for the region and finishes up with an ask for the members of the region. You can contact Tamara on: [email protected] or find her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamara-zivadinovic-4975384/ 

In this episode Helene talks to Christine Bell about a session they co-facilitated for Facilitation Week. They share some of the group's thoughts on what authentic facilitation is as well as some of their own emerging questions on how to balance being authentic but remaining in control and whether authenticity can be learned or taught. They also reflect on their first experience of planning and facilitating together and how liberating it was to deliver a session with no required outputs and without using some of the "usual" facilitation tools. A full transcript is below. Links: Contact Christine by email: [email protected] Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/   Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories  Email: [email protected] Nikki Wilson (NW) Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. In today's episode, Helene Jewell speaks to Christine Bell.    Helene Jewell (HJ) So in today's podcast, I am going to be chatting to Christine Bell, Director of Centre for facilitation. Welcome, Christine.    Christine Bell (CB) Hi, Helene, nice to be with you again.    HJ And it wasn't actually that long ago that I saw Christine, because we did a session together for Facilitation Week all about Authentic Facilitation. And that's what we're going to be talking about in today's podcast. But before I lead into asking Christine, lots of questions about that and doing a bit of reflecting, I just want to ask Christine to tell us a little bit about her facilitation practice. So what kind of work do you do, Christine.    CB I mainly work with researchers and innovators and looking at different ways of doing things, different approaches, trying to get them to collaborate with each other and kind of break down some of the barriers and get to know each other so that they can start to find out interesting connections between different bits of research and then mash it together to come up with something new and interesting, that breaks through some of the challenges that we're facing, environmentally, socially, etc.    HJ Right. Okay. And we have never actually worked together, but I think it's fair to say we know each other through the IAF, or through the larger facilitation community. Yeah, yeah, we've probably, we've probably met quite a few times on the different online forums. And then at the conference, I think the Conference this year was first time we actually met in person. And then and then we met in Bristol, because I was working in Bristol.    HJ So yeah, so our paths have crossed a few times and then feed somehow, you have this great idea about doing a session in Facilitation Week, and you thought "Ah yes I'll ask Helene"    Well, first of all, let's start with Facilitation Week, what is Facilitation Week?   CB  Facilitation Week is a week of different activities designed for the facilitation community so that we can learn and develop from each other and explore different aspects of facilitation. And, and I was very conscious that my time is really quite limited, like, you know, with my time because of all the elderly care issues that are going on for me. So I give very little back to the community. So it felt like it would be quite a small thing for me to do and quite manageable to just offer to run a short session within Facilitation Week. So that was, that was the starting point. And then I learned because I also did that for the facilitation in person event in May. And I learned then because I got involved with another facilitator to run a session there, , actually, if you're going to do it, why not use it as a learning opportunity for myself to actually work with a peer that I don't usually work with, and just learn from that person kind of share best practice together, because then it's actually a developmental experience for me, and not just me doing a free bit of facilitation. And a free bit of, you know, I can facilitate and design facilitation all day long, and that's my job, but to actually to do it with a peer that I don't usually work with just makes that more, it's more fun. And it's more developmental as well. So, yeah, so you came into my mind, because I thought, oh, yeah, I'd like to work with Helene. I think it would be fun.    HJ It was so nice, it was like "yes, of course", like, and I think it's true that Facilitation Week is that there's loads of different sessions, and they're hosted by loads of different people all over the world. So in a way, there's that opportunity to explore and connect, and it's fairly low risk. It's a really nice way to sort of get to know people.   And yes, I remember your session that was for the May conference, I think,and so  I was quite quite pleased. I thought, well, this is a nice opportunity, because we've connected a bit online. We've been to those meetups and the conference together. And yeah, I thought, Well, this sounds like a good idea. And I know originally, you kind of thought about two different things. I can't remember.    CB Yeah, I can't remember what the other one was. But you jumped on the authenticity and when, because I went "I'm vaguely thinking this authenticity". And I think that was because I just finished my last piece of work for the summer, which had been avert a hybrid conference, and someone had commented about my style and approach and how different and distinctive it was to other online facilitator that they'd worked with. And I think I was reflecting on that and recognising actually, that is, one of my strengths is that I can be in the virtual environment, and I feel natural in that environment.    HJ So yeah, I remember you sending an email and thinking about these two different options. And the authenticity stuff really jumped out at me, I think, partly because a lot of the time when we talk about doing sessions, for you know, things like Facilitation Week, I think it's really easy to jump to sort of tools and techniques and sharing that kind of stuff. But I was really intrigued by this, because I thought it's something quite different. But also, I wasn't quite sure where it might go. And I'm quite, I'm always quite keen to try and explore things and see sort of what what could be. So I think when you suggested that, I thought, "Great, that's a good starting point. Let's, let's jump in there and and have a little go and see where it goes". And it's probably fair to say that that was, that was the way our planning worked a little bit.   CB Yeah, it was, I think it was, it was a little chaotic. And then I think I had, I had a quiet period, it was just before the beginning of August. And so I started, I intellectualised about it, which is how I often go. So I did some research. And I started like pulling out all this stuff on authenticity. And it wasn't really, it kind of just made it feel quite sterile. And I thought that's not really it. That's not what I'm talking about here. Then my kind of as happens in the whole of this year, my mum went into hospital again. So I was back into a crisis period. So I didn't have much time to think about it. And so then when you got back from your holiday, we were kind of scrambling around going "right, what is it we're trying to do?" And that's when I came up with the title.    HJ It was, "Am I? Can I?  Should I?, which I think actually intrigued people in itself. So I think that was great that it was such a sort of organic. That's nice. Yeah, but it just Yeah, did it just appear? Or did you spend a long time thinking?    CB No, no, I think it just I went for a bit of a walk. And I just, and it kind of came to me. And it was because this, the way of these things is you often have to come up with your title for the marketing before you've really thought what the session is going to be about. So I didn't want to kind of make it too prescriptive that we would then have to fit into. And I think as I was thinking about it was those dialogues, those kinds of things about what am I actually authentic? You know, is that what I'm coming across here? When people say to me about how I come across as a facilitator and how relaxed they feel with me, is that about authenticity? And then the kind of what is it I do to become authentic? So that's the kind of learning piece? And is it something that you intuitively do? Or is it something that you can actually learn to do? And then the "should" bit was because I think mainly because I was going through that crisis with my mum, as you know, and, you know, there are times when I've had to just put the face on. And you know, internally, I'm crying. And actually, I've got to kind of be out there being positive and engaged Whilst this is going on in the background. And I'm worrying about it. And so, you know, in some ways, is that true authenticity, if we're having to put a bit of a mask over to our feelings? But actually, should I really be truly authentic with a big group do 60 people need to know all my emote stuff that's going on? They just like me to get on with my job and facilitate.    H Yeah, and it's so intersting, because I know, when we were talking about, you know, what do we what is this session gonna be like, what do we need to put in there, we did have a lot of conversations about that kind of stuff. And I know for from my side, it has been suggested by a couple of people that, you know, like you perhaps I'm quite, I don't know, quite energetic, perhaps quite personable in my facilitation style, quite, maybe quite relaxed, but that sometimes I need to maybe dial down my energetic-ness, that kind of outward enthusiasm for a session, let's say, because that doesn't fit with the session, because the tone of the session needs to be different. And so for me, that was one of the questions that I know, I brought into our discussions about, well, when is it good to dial up or dial down your natural self? And when do we need to be a certain way? Um, so yeah, thinking about your example there, you know, you've got stuff going on. That's actually, you know, it's really affecting the way you do things and to have to put on that that face. How does that feel and how does that work? And I think we ended up having these really fascinating conversations between ourselves before we actually even got into the session.   And I almost think that it's the kind of conversation that's almost quite hard to put into a session, because it is very organic in a way that it can go, there's so many different elements to it, it can kind of go left or right or all over the place. You know, there's lots of different bits. And so, in a way, I think the way that we we did the session, it was quite open, and we sort of went with the flow, it felt quite right.    CB And some of that was kind of by default, wasn't it? Because originally, I was saying, "I could use this new, you know, I'm learning over the summer, I want to learn how to use this new tool. And maybe we could use that" and, and then because all of this stuff happened with my mum, I didn't have the headspace to deal with that. And actually, then we started talking about it, you and I, and we had so many conversations planning it we would  just go off into kind of like, oh, this is a really, I knew then that the session was going to work because we just the pair of us could sustain an hour's conversation on authenticity, really, really easily. And so I think that's at that point, we went, why are we worrying about capturing this, we don't need any output. This is facilitation, we, it's a group of random strangers, we don't have to make any decisions, we don't have to come to any conclusions. We don't have to produce a bit of output for a client and so all the stuff that we usually do, we just stripped it right back, because we realised that we had a joyous time just talking about this. And so we worked on the assumption that our participants would come to this as facilitators, and would engage with it. And by stripping away all of the usual periphery stuff, we just made it feel quite natural, and therefore authentic.    And that's kind of a couple of them said something in their feedback about how we had made it right from the beginning, a really relaxed session so they could bring their authentic selves. And the conversations very quickly got to a quite a deep, authentic level with random strangers. And they were all going crazy at the end sending each other, you know, putting in the chat or the chat, I was going through the chat. And it's like, yeah, this is my email. This is my, who cares about data protection, here's my email, contact me, here's my LinkedIn details. And in a way, yeah, that that's not always usual in an online session.    HJ Yeah. And I think it's at that point about, they're not needing to be a particular output, I think is really important. But I think the other thing about working with somebody you haven't commonly worked with, there's that trust building, I guess, relationship building piece. And I feel like we inadvertently did a lot of that behind the scenes, which meant that perhaps, as a co facilitation team, that it worked really well on the day and that we were able to, to hold those conversations without having to worry too much about some of the logistics and all that kind of stuff, which I think sometimes you can worry about, I think it felt like we didn't have to worry too much. It felt like we had quite a strong team, I suppose.    CB Yeah. structure as well didn't we so I mean it was like, you know, I'm gonna do this bit, you're gonna do this bit,  you're gonna organise the breakout groups in the background, and you're doing that bit and I was doing the breakout rooms. And it's like, so we kind of made sure that we knew we didn't, it didn't feel like we crossed, we kind of crossed over each other. It felt like we were holding this together.    HJ Yeah. So I don't, of course, don't want to give anybody the idea that we we didn't plan the session. I promise. We did we used session lab. We did have a nice plan. I think it was more about the way that we put that together. But going back to the session then and how many people did we actually have because one of the things that I was really pleased about and not surprised necessarily but but really pleased that it was actually quite a global audience was an audience, a global load of participants. But how many?    CB  think we had about 14 in the end. So we restricted registration, because that was partly me just feeling like "I can't I've got too much going on" and the complexity of having a really big group when you want to have a plenary discussion, because we decided we wouldn't do everything as a feedback thing. We would have a lot of stuff in the groups and then our last session would be a plenary. And to have a really massive plenary, just I felt would have been more difficult for people to be themselves and to share stuff, so we had a much smaller group, so I limited the Zoom registration to I think 30, something like that. And yeah, and then we had about an you know, the usual attrition of people not turning up and someone turned up, I think 12 hours later, you know, the usual thing you someone didn't read the time zones. But we yeah, we did., we had people from Europe. And so we have someone from Greece, someone from Austria, and then we had a really nice clutch of people from India,    HJ It was really nice to see that truly sort of lots of people that, that I'd never seen before I didn't have a particular connection were very new to me. And a few sort of faces that I know as well. But it was a really nice group of people. And so reflecting back then, on what we actually did, I remember one of the things that you suggested we do right at the start of the session was to put people in trios, I think, and send them straight into breakout rooms. And that felt like people were able to have these conversations straight straight away before we launched into the session. So I really enjoyed that. And then we came back. And what did we do after that? I'm trying to remember what our first bit was.    CB I think we started very much about what is authenticity? What does it mean? What does authenticity mean? So we kind of almost used that structure. So we started off with the kind of me Yeah, am I authentic? And so what do I do that shows that authenticity? And what does that mean to me? And then we moved on more about into the can I be more authentic? So what can I consciously do? Because I think you talked about that. And particularly, what can I consciously do  I remember, we were talking about the headsets. And like, you know, the first time you have to wear, well, the first time I had to wear a headset, because I had a very large group that I was facilitating, and the acoustics were bad. So I did that "I don't need a headset, I can and it's like, no, you can't be heard. It's not fair. And people who've got hearing difficulties that you kind of do this, it's not great for your voice. So just put the headset on and get on with it". And I spent the whole session feeling a bit like Madonna or Kylie or a pop star with this kind of thing. It was one of those ones that had the kind of headphones thing. And it felt like I kept referring to it. And it got in the way of me being authentic. And we were just talking about yo know, how do you consciously manage in those situations where you're there is some kind of restraint or you're feeling you're not in your normal comfort zone, you've had to move out of that for some reason? And how do you consciously bring yourself back to that authentic self? So that was that was a really interesting conversation? Well, we think they were didn't we, Helen, because we didn't actually join, though, consciously decided to send people off into breakout groups, and not do that kind of, I'm going to be really nosy and drop into the breakout groups, because we felt that was going to affect the authenticity of the breakouts. And it serves no real purpose.    HJ Yeah. Really interesting having that conversation in our planning about, you know, the benefit of that and how or the risk or how that might work. And I know the feedback at the end suggested that people really appreciated having that time in breakout. So it was, the time was about them having those good conversations, rather than there being too much weight on having to share it or they're having to be an output particularly it was about them having those good conversations. And it really felt like that went down well, but yeah, we weren't, we weren't able to go in or we could have done but we decided not to go into the breakout groups and be nosy. But then we did do some plenary at the end, didn't we?    CB Yeah, that's right.  Because we realised in our plan, like we looked at the session law, I remember looking at the session level going and we do that there's just not enough. It's like actually, we need more time to have a plenary with a whole group at the end. And so we just shifted things, we didn't have mini plenary and then big plenary, we just went bang straight from breakout groups into a large plenary, which wasn't that large because the size of the group. And I think that was really good because we had a good 20 minutes or so for the final plenary, though that was when we really got a sense of the growth that had gone on in the conversations and that's when we heard conversations that have gone on.   HJ And I was trying to remember what those conversations were what were some of the key highlights because I know you did a survey at the end as well so we asked people to to say what their highlights were and what they got from the session but what do you recall as being the key things that people said back from their conversations?    CB I've got a few things that were written in the because we used the chat quite a lot we encourage people to put stuff in the chat so I've got things like"Being authentic means letting your guard down or showing more about what's going on inside your head and gut and this can help others know it's okay to be vulnerable, doubtful, not know they're there with you not being this polished person, but someone who's real.  And someone else has put something about authenticity means "being on yourself natural and focused, yet actually being in control". So there was, I think we're all aware that there was that kind of, you can't be completely natural like "Actually I'm feeling really tired today, so let's just sack this off and go make a cup of tea, because you've got a job to do. So you're focused on the actual task, but it's about being as natural and relaxed as you can. And then there was a lovely quote from one of our participants from India of "authenticity is about, you've got the head stuff going on, which is your process. You've got your heart stuff going on, which is your being there and feeling for the group and wanting to the group to succeed. And then he was sharing about the hands Yeah, yeah. And it's like, and we all kind of went, Yeah, that's kind of it. Because in the virtual situation, like we're both on screen, in a way that isn't just our heads, we've consciously adapted our virtual environment. So it shows my hands are part of my facilitation, virtually, they add movement, and direction and things and, and when you're in the physical space, you're using your body in that way, as well. So it's, you're not this stiff person who's you know, those kind of guidance about how to present where they say, you should always hold your hands behind your back or in front of your body? And it's like, no, that's not gonna happen.    HJ And I really, I think that phrasing of how, you know, using our hands together with mind and hearts, or how I can't quite remember how he phrased it, but it when he said it, it really landed with people, I think he really kind of hit the nail on the head, and that idea, that you whatever's going on in your head, whatever you're thinking, and that feeling that and then the how you present yourself, I guess, how you you move around, and what your body does, and all that kind of stuff, that those three things happen together to be that authentic you and I, it really struck a chord, I think with with us and with most of the people there and found that really, really insightful. And it also made me think about it was something that somebody else said on the back of that think about, about us understanding what as facilitators, or as people, in fact, make us fearful or excited or pleased or worried or what, what situations we find ourselves in that make us feel like that, and about how we react? And then so how do we react to fear? How do we react to stress? And what do we do about it, then how do we change the way we are in those different situations? And I think that sort of led to this whole different train of thought, for me anyway, away from this just thinking about how I present as a person based on who I am. But actually, all those different situations. Yeah, lots of lots of different stuff to sort of think about.   CB And then we got into that very useful conversation about the, you know, other times when I cannot or should not be truly authentic. And we had a couple of comments about, you know, or maybe there's occasions that so one of the quotes here is there's occasions when being authentic, might not be helpful, for example, when working in different or across cultural contexts. And someone was saying, Yeah, I find that that's very true. When I'm facilitating workshops with government officials and the disadvantaged communities. And so there's kind of like that realisation that there is that moderation sometimes that you have to do have the authentic part of you.  HJ Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's so interesting that that piece about like, how do we actively or how much should we actively change who we are and what we do for the needs of it needs, the participants needs the client needs of the situation we're in and thinking about that alongside the, yeah, who we naturally are and how we respond. And anyway, there's just lots of lots and lots of really lovely stuff to think about think.  OK so then thinking about what we learned, what were your sort of key learning points.   CB I think, in terms of process that keep it simple thing, it was really important, the fact that we just, we had an hour and a half, we didn't use any tools, we didn't use Jamboard, we didn't use a whiteboard, we didn't use mural, we didn't use Menti. We didn't use any of the tools that we might usually use. We just used conversation and the chat and that was it and, and it worked.    It was quite liberating, I think, to have just that and that for this particular workshop, because we didn't need to bring it to a conclusion or produce output. It was enough just to say, we've had the conversation. That's it.    And I think sometimes I'm probably as guilty as anyone else of overcomplex, you know, making things more complex because you think the client is paying for you, but sometimes maybe simple is exactly what's needed. So I think that was yeah, that was a really good learning insight for me about the process. What about for you Helene?   HJ I really like you're putting people into breakout groups straightaway, actually, because I think it's something I haven't done before. I always start with a hello, welcome, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually, I think it's because it feels a bit of a risk. But actually, I think it's a really nice thing to do. So I really love that in terms of the process. And similarly, having a giving people a lot of space. And I think it feels like a bit of a luxury because as facilitators, as you say, normally you have to come out there's an output isn't there, there's a requirement to get to a certain point. And I think that, yeah, luxury of time to just explore and chat around a few simple questions. I think I really enjoyed that as well. Yeah. And also your, your survey, you did a survey at the end. And I thought you were going to you had a zoom poll. And it was a whole new learning thing for me that there was Zoom, zoom survey. So despite the fact we weren't actually doing a session, which was about learning tools, I learned a couple of things anyway, what about the authenticity, then what did you learn was there any learning for you around authenticity, or anything that you think you might take away, do differently?   CB I don't think it is doing anything differently, I think, continuing to be conscious about it. And I think as someone who is very senior, as the facilitator, I've got the responsibility to bring on newer facilitators, younger facilitators, less experienced facilitators. So I think for me, it's just trying to figure out, I know that I come across authentically, and the feedback from this workshop confirmed that, and the workshop that I was running in July also kind of highlighted actually, this is a distinctive thing that I do compared to other people's experiences of facilitators, but I'm not quite sure how I do it. So actually spending a bit of time just thinking about that as the skill set and thinking, Well, how do I get other facilitators that are working with me, who bring this trait in When it's something I can't I don't quite know how I do it?      And I think some of it's just the experience, I think some of it is the way I started on my facilitation when I was quite Junior in an organisation and I was having to kind of find a way of expressing my power as a facilitator, but without that status and power that I had, because of age, that I came at it in quite a relaxed way. And so how do I communicate that with to others? How do I teach others to be that authentic self in themselves? And I think so yeah, that's, I don't think I've come away going, right. And that's how I'm going to do it. But it's given me time and space, especially talking to you in the preparation. And during the actual session itself. It's just given me time and space to kind of think about, yeah, this is this is a trait. And it's actually probably one of the most important traits, that seems because if if participants feel we're being authentic, they trust in the process, they trust in us, they buy into it, they engage. And so the rest of it becomes a lot easier.    HJ Yeah. And I think it's really so I think a couple of things that stood out for me, just then, as you were talking, there's the seniority thing I think, the more you are used to facilitating and the more you have practised and you feel comfortable, I guess in knowing what you're doing, perhaps the less you are worried about how you are as well, you can think your focus is is very different. When you haven't done a lot of facilitation, there's so much to worry about. Whereas I think the more experienced you are perhaps you don't have to worry so much about whether you've got I don't know pink, post it or blue post it so you know all that stuff that when you first start out, you spend a lot of time really and really stressing about some things, I think and so perhaps  that then gives you the space to be more authentic because you're not worrying about things that actually you know, they're quite important but but the later as you carry on in your career, I think they'd become less important perhaps and that Yeah, the other   The thing was this idea of can you teach authenticity? And I think something you said earlier about teaching people to walk or put your hands in a certain way and that kind of thing.  I always find that way of talking about being, as a facilitator, quite, quite interesting, because actually, I'm not sure you can you can't, you know, one size doesn't fit all. You shouldn't, or put your hands in a certain way, because that means this or sit down stand up. I think it's all very dependent on the situation, isn't it? So? Think that's quite a question. Can you teach somebody to be more authentic? I'm sure there are people that do I'm sure you can. But how you go about that I think's really fascinating.    And yeah, I think that you started off saying that you had you had perhaps come to this from a slightly more academic point of view. And it has made me think a bit, there's just loads and loads of literature out there to really explore this stuff. Because there is like a thread, isn't it? You pull up a thread, and you realise there's more and more and more, and the more we have these conversations, the more you realise there's so much depth to it. So such an interesting topic.    CB Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's what I came away with is like, actually, it's a fascinating subject. And let's have more conversations about it. Because it was, you know, really enjoyable to have a conversation on I think everyone who came, kind of, the feedback was just like, if this was really interesting, and really enjoyed these conversations. Yeah, hope we continue these conversations, it was really useful talking to the others. I learned a lot. You know, these are just all the things that people were just saying it's like, and someone said, I'd love to hear other facilitators, stories about these edgy situations, you know, the edge of when the authenticity is under attack, or when it when you feel you're having to make a shift in yourself to dial it down, like you said, or in my situation to mask some of the emotional turmoil that's going on? And it's like, where are those edgy stories will be quite fascinating about, yeah, facilitators on the edge of, of authenticity, and things like that.    HJ That sounds like a great blog, Christine, challenge for you.   CB I think one last thought that's popped into my head actually is the sort of cultural dimension of it, by which I mean, you know that how authenticity differs depending on where you're from, and I don't know what language you speak and your culture. So that that's an element that I think I'd love to explore further as well. So but you can only do so much in an hour and a half., so next time, authenticity part two.   Brilliant. Thank you so much, Christine, for joining me today. It's been really great to reflect on the session and to relive some of the you know, how we put it together the conversations that happened in the session and to think about kind of what next as well. How do we reach you if we want to get hold of you?    CB You simply contact [email protected]    HJ Fantastic, thanks and see you soon.   CB Bye.   PO And that's the end of today's episode of facilitation stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email [email protected] Or you can get all the other links from our website facilitationstories.com. There this has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.  

In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Carnall about Philosophical Inquiry.   It's a way of engaging in a conversation explorating into philosophical questions.   Rosie has used Philosophical Inquiry in a range of situations, from Art Galleries, to pubs, to workplaces. Nikki and Rosie talk about how to choose stimuli for discussions and learning from a specific example of when Rosie ran the same session back to back, online and in person for a hybrid team.  The full transcript is below.  Links: Rosie's website: www.rosiecarnall.co.uk Nikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/   Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories  Email: [email protected] NW Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and my guest today is Rosie Carnall. So welcome, Rosie. So to start off with, could you tell the listeners a little more about you and what you do?   RC   Thanks, Nikki. So my name is Rosie Carnall, and I'm a Freelance Creative Facilitator.  My background's in mediation and conflict resolution and from that, I learned quite a lot about facilitation and developed that as an interest, and I've also worked in things like Project management. And then, more recently, in my work, I've been able to focus more on facilitation, and in particular, using both creative methods of facilitation to get people thinking and talking, but also facilitating creative sessions. So I typically work with creative writing and the creative field but I'm also really interested in art -based work. So quite a broad range of interests, but at the core of it all, is facilitating interesting and engaged conversations.   NW   Fantastic. And we're going to dig in a little bit more about that, in this episode. So you and I met at the IMF conference, and I discovered that you include philosophy for communities in your practice. So I had a really positive experience as a participant in the past, and I was really keen to, to find out a bit more about how you use it. So for listeners that aren't familiar with P4C, could you tell us a bit more about it?    RC   Yeah, that's great that you had a positive experience. I'd love to hear more about that another time. So Philosophy for Communities is a method of holding a Philosophical Inquiry. And Philosophical Inquiry is kind of what it sounds like, it's a way of engaging in a conversation that takes forward questioning and exploration into philosophical questions. And philosophical questions are all around us in life. And P4C,  Philosophy for Communities is a way of, it's a method to enable people who aren't academic philosophers who don't wouldn't consider themselves to be philosophical necessarily, to discover big questions, and discuss them together.  NW   Okay. And so, when did you first encounter P4C and what appealed to you about it?  RC   The first ever time I encountered P4C was when my son took part in it in a P4C inquiry as part of a youth group. And I was just a parent on the edge kind of thing. I wasn't participating. And they, they had in any P4C inquiry, you would have a stimulus, so that's the starting point for whatever the discussion is going to be. But the stimulus always has quite a lot of different ways to go. And the stimulus on this occasion was a children's story, Michael Morpurgo story. And it was the one about the Christmas Truce, the story where in the First World War, there was a truce called on Christmas Day, and the English and German soldiers played football together. And then the young people, including my son, read the story. And then they asked questions, and then they discuss the questions they came up with. And then they went on to create a Christmas play, to put on arising from their discussion.   And the thing that really struck me was how they engaged in such depth with what the story meant. So when they put on the play, they weren't rehearsing lines, they were conveying meaning. And it just felt such a rich form of learning that I thought, well, I really need to find out more about this.   So and that, that brings up the the idea that P4C also stands for Philosophy for Children, and it's used in a lot of schools in Britain.  It's an international movement. It's a way of teaching thinking skills and critical thinking. And it's also a way of engaging children in kind of social learning, and how to disagree agreeably. And Philosophy for Communities is the exact same thing. It's just with adults in community rather than children.   NW   Yeah, excellent. I mean, I, as I said, I encountered it as an adult first of all, but hearing that it had been, you know, the stem of it was from, from kind of school based learning, I just thought I wish that we'd done this at school, it would have been so valuable, I think to, to kind of build those skills, as you said that that whole idea of being able to discuss and sit alongside other people and kind of draw out that meaning. And so how did you I mean, obviously, you you learned about it as an observer, how did you first come to try facilitating it in practice?   RC   Well, Ijust, I was already doing facilitation. And I was interested in using it at that time, I was working as manager of a team and a national organisation and I started trying using a bit in that kind of team context. And I also used it in community, I'm a Quaker, as it happens, and so at our Quaker meeting, we offered a couple of P4C inquiries, and I was lucky that I had a friend who's very skilled and knowledgeable about P4C, and the thing that happens straight away, in that classic learning journey is that soon as you start trying to actually do something, you learn so much more about what you don't know about doing it,  You know, it looks so easy, "Well, I'm going to give that a go", and really quickly I was like I need to do some training in this if I want to get really good at this, or even, you know, even as a starting point.   I began to understand and for example, in facilitating a group to come up with questions, I just needed to do a much more deep dive into like, "What is a question? And how do we get to good questions?" So I did some training with an organisation locally, who, who mainly trained teachers in Philosophy for Children, but I came along and said, "Well, I actually don't work in a school I'm going to, I'm going to use it with adults, mainly. So that was how I did the training.  NW   Excellent. And so since then, obviously, you trialled it in practice, and then kind of did this bit of training. But where have you used it since then? Are there any contexts where you feel it particularly works well?  RC   Yeah, so I've used it, I've used it a lot with Quakers, for interest and for kind of, not teaching so much as learning. So getting a group together and inquiring into a shared question, it means that people are sharing their knowledge and their ideas and their thinking, and that fits really well in that context. So that kind of community learning together. And I've used it in pubs. So I set up and run a Philosophy in Pubs group in Sheffield, that's been going, coming up for five years, in fact, and that's just an open access group, anyone who's interested can come along, and each month, it's a monthly group, and I bring a different stimulus, and we'll see where that goes. And during the pandemic, I moved that online. so I've used it online as well as in real life, so to speak.  And I've used it as part of a more creative focus or cultural focus, as part of the Sheffield Year of Reading, which was a whole year the library set up, of getting people into reading and thinking. And for that we used different excerpts from books or a poem.   I've used it as, I do creative writing, and Creative Writing facilitation. So I use it as a way into creative writing, but also as a way of people engaging with each other's writing to critique. So something I call creative critique. So we use people's passages of writing as the stimulus for the inquiry, and it means they get a sense of whether what they're writing is actually landing with the listener.   And I now also offer P4C sessions in a local art gallery and a few art galleries and I call that "Philosophy in the Gallery", and so then in that case, it's again, it's an open access session where people would come and we look at an artwork together, and then evolve our thinking arising from looking at the art, so not so much a focus on learning about art, art history, or even the kind of painterly strokes, but what does it mean to us? So always it's about what does it mean to us? And then I've also done some work with organisations. So then right back to the beginning, in a way of working with a team and using it as a way of bringing a team or colleagues together to think about questions and issues together.   NW   So kind of building on that, where do you look for the stimuli that you would use in these sessions?,  RC   Ah that's an interesting question. I look for them everywhere. So in the Art Gallery, my job is easy, because I go into the Art Gallery, and then I can have a look and choose one. For the sessions in the pub, I try and have a really varied range. So, in fact, I did a session on Tuesday this week and our stimulus was an excerpt from a book called Bright New World, which is about climate change, and what we know about how to manage and mitigate climate change. It's a very positive book. And there was a section about trave and I just thought, "Oh, that's interesting. It's got lots of different thinking in it". and then the group came up with their question they wanted to ask. And I use poems, I use short videos, I used a Hey Duggee episode, which is a children's cartoon, and they had I use it there is in fact, I Hey Duggee on philosophy, but I use the one on collecting, and so thinking about what does it mean that humans collect things. And I might also use something from a philosophy book, but I'm not an academic philosopher. So I don't tend to get you know, I'm interested in people's own philosophising, rather than, you know, I'm not bringing that into the room, we're finding out where that comes from. And with the teams or an organisation or community group who have a particular theme they want to explore, then I will be thinking about "how can I, what can I find that would open up questions on that theme without being didactic?" So it definitely needs to be something that's open ended and isn't arriving with a moral opinion into the room. Although, if there is you know, maybe it's hard to get totally away from morality, but people need to have the sense that they can disagree as well as agree.  NW   Yeah. And that there's presumably that there's sufficient scope within that stimulus to go in lots of different directions and kind of take it their own way.  RC   Yes, exactly. And that is a very common experience. And, you know, in fact, what's quite common, is that I think  "Oh, that's really interesting". And whatever it is, that's interested me, in the passage I choose, or the artwork I choose, it turns out, you know, no one else finds that interesting, you know, that people will come up with these really different questions, and not what I was expecting at all. And that's one of the glorious things about the process.  NW   But I suppose with that in mind, though, are there situations where you'd hesitate to use this kind of technique?  RC   I think it's a tricky question, isn't it? Because in one way, I want to say "no, it can be used everywhere. You know, it's such a rich possibility. And it's so open", and with my background, in mediation and conflict resolution, you know, it's one of the reasons why I got interested in Philosophy for Communities. But I think, as a mediator, I became a bit frustrated with the idea that people thought, "oh, you know, we need a mediator". And they typically thought that a lot further on into a conflict, when they may be, you know, if you're going to have a mediator get one early, but also that there's, there's a desire within the idea of having a mediator for a solution and an answer and someone an expert to come in. And so what I'm really interested in as well, maybe if we could all talk to each other more and disagree agreeably, and be able to accept that someone has a different opinion than us, and that's okay, it's just interesting rather than threatening, then that might, it's kind of the groundwork of conflict resolution in a way.   So it's almost like the antithesis of social media where people get into these terrible conflicts because they're, they're just getting reactive and up against each other, where P4C or Philosophical Inquiry is about staying alongside each other without having to agree. And so perhaps that means that I'm a little bit more willing to take risks. Because I think, I think a lot of people are really alarmed by the idea of conflict or alarmed by the idea that people you know, people might get upset.  I don't want to upset anyone, but neither do I want to quash emotion, because emotion is part of our human experience. And emotion is part of how we know what we think about something. You know, that's a really clear route, if you hear some information, and it invokes a strong emotional response in you, then, you know, that's telling you something about what you think about that information. For me, that's part of the rich potential for Philosophical Inquiry.  That said, in terms of my responsibility, as a facilitator, I would always want to be sure that I could create a safe space, or a brave space or an appropriate space for sharing within any community. So I would want to do a dynamic risk assessment of you know, you know, what's appropriate, and thinking back, I suppose, partly to my mediation, training or thinking about power imbalance. And if, if power imbalance can't be managed within the group, then it's not going to have the ethos that I would want. So I would be looking to manage that process but so far, no one's asked me to do a Philosophical Inquiry in a situation where I've said, "No, that's not going to work".   And in fact, family Christmas a couple of years ago, we were just sitting talking, and then we kind of got into a question and really, I was facilitating an inquiry, you know, it was just an area of interest for the five of us, you know, that's possibly quite a bold move, to introduce it completely socially. I mean, there wasn't such a structured thing there.   And I always say that in in terms of this practice, that I feel like I've really developed my own thinking, you know, we talk about teaching children thinking skills, but I definitely feel that my own thinking has improved, and that it's doing P4C has made me better at arguing with my husband. I don't know whether he appreciates that or not, but I feel very strongly that, you know, it's I'm, I'm able to think more clearly and to understand more about how I'm feeling and you know, what is the actual question I want to discuss?  NW   Right and so, with all of those different directions that you've taken it, including into the domestic environment, this might be a difficult question to ask, but where would you like to go next with it?  RC   And well, I'm really excited about my work with Art Galleries and Museums, and opening those spaces out to more people. And particularly with Art Galleries, I have this strong aspect to my practice, where it's really important to me that you don't need to know anything about art to experience art, and so the Philosophical Inquiry, I think, can really help. I know, it does help people to, to open that up to like, "Oh, my ideas and thoughts are the same and different as other people's, and that that's an equal process. And we're just going to look at the art, and then respond to it." So that's a really exciting area of interest for me. And in getting people, it can be quite social in that way, in that way, can help with reducing loneliness and isolation. As a social, I always say, "Do you like meeting new people, but you don't really do small talk? You know, P4C is for you".   So I'm interested in that community based work, and particularly with Art Galleries and Museums, and I'm also really interested in the workplace, and teams and colleagues, and bringing people together to think together about what underpins their work. So I think often in the workplace, you can be so focused on action, and practical steps and getting things done, that it can be really helpful to take that step back and think about, well, "why am I doing this? What you know, what is it that brings us together? What are our shared interests and concerns and opening up those bigger questions about the ethos and value of the area of work?" And thinking that through in the background, I think that's very interesting how that works.  NW   Okay. So I mean, obviously, quite different contexts there,  I suppose showing that kind of breadth of where P4C can apply and equally have value, and so I suppose thinking or drawing that right back to a very specific example, when we had our initial call about this podcast, you were just about to run the same P4C inquiry twice with a morning online and an afternoon in person. So I'm kind of curious as to how that went.  RC   Yeah, that was a great day it was, was for a national organisation who are now of course, much more dispersed than they were before. So that change into a lot of people working from home and coming back to the office, and how does that workplace community function in those ways. And so that was the reason why we had an online session, as well as an in person session, and using the same stimulus and the same session plan, but of course, getting different thinking.   So that, in fact, the stimulus or use that was a short film, about how trees communicate. So there's this thing the Wood Wide Web, that trees, you might  see trees as individual trees, but in fact, they communicate through their roots and through the soil system, and they can create complex communication. So we had that as a stimulus on each occasion, and then looked at what the concepts were that were coming up, and how that related to the idea of a community of colleagues, and particularly colleagues who now don't necessarily see each other so often.  It was a great day, that some of what I noticed about it was the difference between online and in person. And in particular, I've got an interest in the fact that in online sessions, especially in a group, is quite difficult to laugh, and to have humour. Because just purely because of, if someone's speaking, someone else can't be speaking, you know, you get that kind of disjunct between and timelag, you know, whereas in the room, it's much more easy to have that kind of humour and laughter happening. Not that people online, didn't make jokes or enjoy, but there's something different in that in how that works.   And it was interesting as well, because when we were looking at what concepts people drew out, that's the kind of starting point they watch the stimulus together, and then think about what are the important concepts here., and there were a lot of commonalities between the morning and the afternoon, but there were differences as well.   And so then that led to different questions being asked, and a slightly different focus to the sessions, at the same time as having, you know, a lot of common interest as well.  NW   It sounds fascinating to have that that opportunity, really, to actually get that real close comparison of the two, the two sessions so close together. So thinking back then, what was your key learning that came out of that that session?  RC   I think what was was really interesting about having two sessions together, was in future, I would want to bring them back together more.  So that it was able it's a very effective process for being able to pull out some learning that's de-personalised. So because you're taking this philosophical approach. And it's asking big questions about the nature of, of life and thinking and attitudes and values, then it does actually really effectively bring out ideas and thinking rather than comments and opinions.   And that felt really helpful to me that for in a work, colleagues situation. And often what you're wanting to find out is that thinking that's behind someone's opinion. So that was really useful and in the future, I would want to develop a clearer way to bring that back round together and to share it between the two groups. I was able to do it, but it was, you know, as you learn that process, It's having some shared learning that's coming out of it together. And I suppose ideally, would be to, in some way, bring everyone together at the end.  NW   Okay, so lots of big thinking to take away then Rosie and no small challenge of kind of working out how to draw all those things together when people are so dispersed, as you said, I think that's, that can be quite a challenge when you know, some people are in the room, and some aren't as well on that whole hybrid way of working.  RC   Yeah. And I think as well, because of the, there's a stage and an inquiry process where groups come up with questions, and those questions often and then you choose one question to focus, a conversation, the kind of dialogue part of the inquiry. And often, you know, if you've got four or five, six questions, they can sometimes they're all really great questions, and in fact, what you really want to do is take them away and create a curriculum. So that there's something about that the questions that come up can be a really important part of what the learning is, and offering them back in to future team meetings or discussion groups or, you know, staff conference or an intranet piece, I think that there's something about the questions that come up can be, this can be really mind for a lot of interest.  NW   Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. It's been really interesting to hear a bit more about it as I said, I had this one idea of what it was going to be like from my perspective, but so many different avenues that you've taken it ,so I'm sure we could talkl all afternoon or evening about it. But then, thank you so much again.   And so if listeners are interested to find out more about you or to connect him with you house, what's the best way for them to do that?  RC   So I have a website, www.rosiecarnall.co.uk . That's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me or to find out a bit more.  NW   Excellent. Well, thank you, Rosie. It's been great to talk to you bye for now.  RC   Thank you very much. Thank you. And that's the end of today's episode of Facilitation Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email [email protected] Or you can get all the other links from our website facilitationstories.com. This has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.  

After over 100 episodes spanning 4 years, Pilar Orti is stepping down from her role as co-host on the Facilitation Stories podcast. In this special episode, Pilar joins regular co-hosts Helene Jewell and Nikki Wilson to reflect on her time on the show and what comes next.   How It All Began   The idea for Facilitation Stories emerged organically at an in-person meetup hosted by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators (IAF) back in 2019. Pilar had given a talk on using podcasting to build community and connection in remote teams. Afterwards, some attendees suggested starting a podcast for the chapter. Pilar agreed to help get it off the ground.   Along with Martin Gilbraith's support, Pilar worked with Helene and another co-host to produce the first 4 episodes and establish a regular cadence. After some early experimentation, they settled into releasing 1 episode per month. The organic, unstructured nature of those early days established the podcast's informal, conversational tone that continues today.   Why Listeners Connect   A big part of the podcast's appeal is its sense of community. As Pilar says, it feels like "listening to your friends." Most facilitation podcasts focus on tips, tutorials, and sales pitches. Facilitation Stories stands out for spotlighting members of the IAF England and Wales community sharing stories and learning from real life experiences.   The hosts' genuine enthusiasm, warmth, and enjoyment comes across in every episode. According to Pilar, her favorite episodes are the unscripted conversations between two or more co-hosts. The rapport and natural interactions make listeners feel like they're right there in the room.   Evolution of Facilitation During the Pandemic   Pilar, Helene, and Nikki reflected on how facilitation has changed over the past few years, accelerated by the pandemic. Virtual facilitation has become more ubiquitous and accepted. More organizations recognize the need for facilitators to help guide productive online meetings and events. Hybrid events also present new challenges facilitators must adapt to.   On a skills level, facilitators have had to expand their digital literacy and learn to facilitate exclusively through a screen. Soft skills like reading the virtual room, fostering connections, and keeping energy levels up become even more crucial.   Co-facilitation partnerships have also blossomed as the complexity and demand increases. Facilitators increasingly team up with those outside the profession who bring complementary expertise.   Key Takeaways   A few key themes emerge from Pilar's time on Facilitation Stories:   Start simple - When launching a new podcast, focus on consistent execution over production value. Get the first 10 episodes done to build momentum.   Rotate roles - Swap hosting and production duties between team members. It keeps things dynamic while building everyone's skills.   Personality matters - Let your authentic style and personality come through. This attracts the right listeners who connect with the content.   Find your niche - Targeting a specific community makes it easier to grow an engaged audience, as demonstrated by the show's IAF focus.   Value enjoyment - Do it because you find joy in the process and camaraderie. Passion shines through and makes it worthwhile.   What Comes Next   While sad to say goodbye to Facilitation Stories, Pilar is embarking on an exciting new chapter. She shared some of the creative pursuits and professional projects she'll be focusing on:   Developing an audio course on asynchronous communication   Exploring the comics medium and using visual storytelling   Continuing fiction writing and other literary projects   Building her podcasting expertise through new shows and helping others level up their podcasts   Authoring books on topics like co-hosting or using Trello for podcast production   After years of client work, training, and teaching, Pilar is ready to put more energy into generating original content and productions. She remains as passionate as ever about podcasting and plans to start new shows in addition to advising others.   When asked if she had any parting wisdom, Pilar expressed full confidence that Helene and Nikki will continue taking the podcast to new heights. She may no longer be there, but the strong community built on Facilitation Stories will carry on  

Welcome to Facilitation Stories, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF.  In today's episode Pilar Orti talks about running circles (spaces for dialogue) with Jindi Mann, founder and facilitator of Leader Brother Son and coach and organizational consultant at The Selfish Leader. Jindy recently ran the Men at Work survey as part of his work with Leader Brother Son, where he works with groups of men. The work has the potential of benefiting mental health and diversity. The Men at Work survey in particular, was a way for them to gather some insights into the male experience at work. In particular, it highlighed what men find hardest to talk about at work and what can help them show up more fully at work. To explain the roots of his work, Jindy talks about his early life, growing up in a British Indian family, his two business degrees and masculine cultures in the business world. He came to realize that he had an opportunity to work with this, as he was seeing the same thing repeatedly: the idea of taking up this role of "man" without interrogating what that means. Alongside some other coaches, Jindy started offering free online groups two and a half years ago. They'll be starting their 10th group in early August.  There is a short application process for joining the groups. Intersted participants first make  an enquiry on the company's website, and this is followed by a short conversation to align expectations and understand the principles behind the sessions. There are typically, eight to twelve people in each group and at least two facilitators in each session. As the work comes from a personal space for Jindy, he often feels the tension between leading or guiding the group and just allowing the space to be what it is. Jindy and the other facilitators are not the ones who have the answers, they are not defining what a man should be or what Masculinity is, but they are holding the space by contributing and holding the principles and the shape of the conversation, rather than telling it where to go. Throughout this work, Jindy still feels that tension of when to take some sort of action as a facilitator or when to contribute or when to say anything. He uses the coaching acronym WAIT – why am I talking?  Jindy has started to refer to himself more explicitly as a "facilitator" when starting doing this work with men, but he has used facilitation in different ways in his consulting career.  As to how the work with the circles and his co-facilitation have evolved, Jendy shares that when the groups started they introduced specific topics for discussion, but soon they started to invite the group to say what it wanted to explore. He shares some of the theories and practises that have influenced him including the idea from Wilfred Bion of that there are thoughts present in the group, but they haven't yet found a thinker. It can sound almost mystical, but the unconscious is always present, is always active in a group. And collectively things can emerge in a group. (For more on this read any of Jung or Freud's work and Experiences in Groups by Wilfred Bion.)  Jiindy has trained as a facilitator with Way of Council and in the conversation he shares his experience there and its overlap with psychodynamic theory.  Jindy talks about his co-facilitators Aaron, Mark and Russell and how they met, and how they all bring something slightly different and have different influences. But that they have an important chemistry between them. The team are not taking their work into organisations. The work here will be different as the dynamics in organisations will be different than in an open group. People there will have assumptions about each other, and there will already be a sense of status and hierarchy.  Jindy shares the pros and cons of doing these groups in person and online and about AI in coaching and wraps up with a couple of broad reflections: firstly, the conversation about men and masculinity is growing. Secondly, there is an increasing need for great dialogue and for great facilitated spaces for all of the things we're facing as a society. If you want to find out more about Jindy's work, you can go to Leaderbrotherson.com. And also you can also check out his other organization called The Selfish Leader.  He is on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jindymann/ Men at Work Survey https://www.leaderbrotherson.com/resource/men-at-work-2023-survey Leader Brother Son https://www.leaderbrotherson.com/about You can connect with Pilar Orti on LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/pilarorti/ Listen to our podcasts:  https://www.facilitationstories.com/   And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories 

In today's episode, Nikki talks to Perle Laouenan-Catchpole, an Amsterdam-based facilitator and experienced designer. Perle shares the origins of Perle's award-winning, open-source workshop that aids individuals in identifying their personal climate action. Perle discusses the importance of open source in facilitation work and the impact it has on personal growth, relationship-building and work perception. She firmly believes in the need for collaborative and shared resources in addressing pressing issues like climate change. T he discussion also touches on different platforms for sharing open-source material and how they can be leveraged by other facilitators.  Links: Website https://helloperle.com/ Perle's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/perlelc/ Session Lab Template https://www.sessionlab.com/templates/find-your-climate-sweet-spot/ Nikki's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Here's the transcript of the conversation: NIKKI Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and my guest today is Perle Laouenan-Catchpole. Welcome Perle. For listeners that don't know you, could you start by telling us a little bit more about you and your work? PERLE Yeah, absolutely. So, I am Perle. I'm a workshop facilitator, moderator, experienced designer and aspiring spoken word artist. It's something I have been pushing myself out of my comfort zone to do for a while now. And I'm based in Amsterdam. I was actually born and bred in Cornwall, so you'll notice a very British accent on me, and I've been living in Amsterdam for the past twelve years and have the great joy of co-parenting a five year old daughter. And yeah, that's about me. NIKKI Excellent. And so the inspiration for this episode came from a post you made on LinkedIn saying that you'd won a thing for a workshop you've designed. So, first of all, could you tell us a little bit more about what you won, and how that came about? PERLE Yeah, absolutely. Well, to give you a little bit more context about my work, so I went freelance in January and I was working as a full time facilitator before that. And over the past couple of years I really recognized that my skill as a facilitator is facilitating large groups online and that opportunity doesn't come along very often. So I started seeking out communities that could use my skills and landed on a community called Work on Climate, which is a 20,000 strong community of individuals trying to find climate work in climate or transition their roles into climate work.  And I facilitated a workshop for them using Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson's Ven diagram. That basically similar to Ikigai, which is the Japanese concept for finding purpose, helps you identify your personal climate action. So that workshop, 200 and something people turned up for it and it was incredible.  And the workshop design, I then submitted to a contest hosted by Session Lab, which is a facilitators platform, and then won in one of the categories. And I was just really happy to see that workshop then become an open source template for other people to use. So that's how I ended up writing a post on LinkedIn saying I want a thing. NIKKI Well, first of all, congratulations Perle, that's great news and you just touched on it there. But one of the things that had really caught my eye about that post was that you said that you'd made it into an open source template. So I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about how open source features in your facilitation work. PERLE Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say I kind of categorise it in two ways, because as a facilitator and experienced designer, I rely hugely on open source materials. I'm constantly seeking new ways of doing things, new concepts, new exercises. So I'm leaning on other people's open source material all the time - and then that then encourages me and it inspires me to do the same. And I actually believe that facilitation is an abundant skill set.  We need more Facilitators in the world. We need it in our organizations, in our teams. And I fundamentally believe that if we can support one another to grow those tools, that mindset, that approach in our work, then the world is better for it. And yeah, I just believe there's enough work for all of us. So why keep my skills, my knowledge, my understanding of how to facilitate to myself, if we can kind of trigger other people to do more with their work too, especially when it comes to climate? NIKKI Excellent. You've talked a little bit about kind of drawing from other people's work as a key tool for yourself. But how did you first start working in a way where you were sharing more of this information? And how do you go about that?  PERLE Yeah, I feel like that it kind of reinforces some of my key values as just a human being, where I aspire to be and try to be open and kind and authentic anyway. And then I have had the pleasure to work for many organisations and companies that do the same. So they either are open to partnering with lots of different partners to achieve their goals or providing services that increase access to global needs such as health care and education. So in a way, my value system makes me seek out organisations or types of work that allow me to be an open source minded person, I guess. NIKKI So thinking a bit more about what impact opening up and sharing your own work has had on you, could you tell us a little bit more about that? How has it affected how your work is perceived or the relationships you build, those kind of things? PERLE So I truly believe that if you're open with your work and your approach to work and you are authentic in that process, then you attract the same types of people and opportunities back. And I also have a fundamental belief that we are able to grow with each other. I'm not somebody who works very well individually. I really work better when someone else is able to spark my energy, grow my energy, add to my ideas, add to my body of work. And I know that I am valuable for other people in that way. So if we kind of can approach facilitation with that kind of mindset, then we only make it better for people receiving that facilitation.  So yeah, it's just a belief system, I guess. And I'm feeling the benefits of it because I meet incredible people, I work with incredible people and I do a job I love. NIKKI And so, I mean, personally, I'm really a convert to the benefits of open. Now, I was before this conversation, but you've even convinced me more. But I think when I first started to become more aware of this way of working, it felt a bit counterintuitive. And you've said that you yourself have more recently gone freelance. And I think there was a sort of mindset around, if I give too much away, how will I justify charging for the things that I do want to? And also always being aware of things like risk of copyright and ownership. And for any listeners that are kind of grappling with some of those ideas, even if they've heard about the benefits from you, what would you say to them to kind of reassure them or convince them to give it a try? PERLE Yeah, I actually want to just first acknowledge that it's a very real feeling, right? Because it took me a second to press that button and submit my template to be open source, because in the end, well, anyway, that is a free workshop that I'm offering so a couple of hundred people could join it without any monetary benefit to me. So I was already making that choice for it to be open source. And yeah, it's a workshop that I could have monetized. But I also believe there's different types of level of my work that I can monetize and there's other types of work that I can open out to people to learn myself, learn what works, what doesn't, and test new concepts, test new ideas. And so I use often my free workshops or my open workshops as testing grounds. And that enables me to get stronger as a facilitator, hone my skills. So I won't provide all workshops open source or all templates open source, because in the end, I need to also grow my paid work, my clients, I also want to be able to provide my clients with tailored solutions that work for them. And some of it can work for other organisations, and I will share the bits that could.  So in a way, it's not one or the other, it's about the gradient and just giving parts of you or parts of your thinking or your work out into the world so that you can spread a certain message or spread a certain need that the world needs. NIKKI Okay, and you mentioned that the workshop that you won this award for was shared on Sessionlab. So is that the main place that you might open out workshops and designs, or are there other places that you also share content? PERLE Yeah, Session Lab is the first. Honestly, there are a few different platforms that I'm looking at to expand my work. One of my main clients, Limelights, that I work for quite a lot as a freelance facilitator, they have a couple of Miro templates that are available really around Sprint methodology, but also using Kotter's Eight Steps for Change in sustainability teams. So in a way, there's many different avenues that work can be shared. And as facilitators, we should be looking for these platforms to put our ways of working out there. NIKKI And so if anyone is listening and they're interested in finding out more about open source and how it could apply to their facilitation, what would you recommend as kind of sources of information/first steps? PERLE Yeah, well, I feel like there's obvious spaces to look for. So in Miro, Mural, there's so much abundance of resources that are available for facilitators. And then, of course, Session Lab is my daily go to. It's a gold mine of resources. The library is free, it's open, it can be used by anyone And then actually Chat GPT, it's becoming my sparring partner and it's the place where I often put in the big questions like, where are the places that I could look for putting open source material there? What type of material should I be putting out into the world? So it's an aspiring partner that allows you to think with you to increase your accessibility to different resources that you may never have heard about before. NIKKI Okay. And for all those places that you mentioned, is it possible for other facilitators to share their work on those places as well? Just to confirm, apart from Chat GPT obviously. PERLE Yeah, of course. Yeah, Miro, for sure. And actually, it triggers me, Nikki, to talk about Slack because there are so many Slack communities, Leapers, which is a freelance network, and then Freelancers Get  Done. And that actually is a Slack community that has a facilitation bench and facilitation skills channel. And those channels are really great sources of ideas, but also just going, hey, I have 100 people in this workshop, two days, any inspiration of how I could get them from A to B or working on this challenge? And there are so many incredible kind of minds within minutes jumping on your challenge and helping you to come up with ideas. NIKKI Okay, there's so many different suggestions there Perle, so hopefully everyone's got a notebook, but we'll include them In the show notes as well. And so we had a quick sort of message exchange on LinkedIn after your post and you said that you felt that open source was where it's at, particularly around climate. And what is it specifically around climate that you think makes this a particularly important approach? PERLE The urgency, fundamentally the urgency. We need fundamental change and action and we need it fast. And the more we do things, do things together, open out... I got the workshop idea based on Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson's open Source Ven diagram that she created that helps people find their climate action. Based on that work, I am able to create a workshop on it. And based on that, 200 people joined. And that's how movements start, that's how movements spread, start, and fundamentally, when it comes to climate, we know that we have to keep acting and keep acting fast.  So, yeah, fundamentally, open source is exactly where we should be, the kind of mindset we should be approaching with climate. And there's amazing case studies and examples of open source climate actions that are happening out there in the world and it's inspiring to see how many people are motivated to put their time and effort and their skills to solving world problems. NIKKI No, definitely with that in mind and all that we've talked about. I know myself that you're always working on things because I see them popping up, as I said, particularly through LinkedIn. But have you got anything in the pipeline that you're working on or that you want other listeners to know about that you know others are working on? Is there anything we should be looking out for? PERLE Yeah, so I'm working on quite a few open workshops with the Work on Climate community. So they're popping up every month or two and you can basically just follow me on LinkedIn and you will see the work. I feel like we've got summer approaching, things are a little bit quiet, so, yeah, I'm really focusing on testing concepts and doing that with communities like Work on Climate. NIKKI Great, well, I think it sounds like you're going to be keeping yourself busy in the slowdown over summer. So if any of the listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? PERLE For sure, LinkedIn, my name will be spelled out for you in the show notes. I'm sure it's not an easy one. And then I also have a website that you can drop me a line on which is https://helloperle.com/ And yeah, I'm very much looking forward to hearing from you. NIKKI Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Perle. It's been really good to talk to you this afternoon, and I hope you can keep spreading and sharing the open message and that some of the other facilitators listening kind of had their interest sparked in learning a bit more about this. Because I think totally agree with what you've said about kind of spreading the word, spreading the resources. It's so important. Thank you. PERLE Thank you, Nikki.  

In this episode, Pilar talks to fellow podcast team members Helene and Nikki, along with Penny Walker and Shanaka Dias about a global, hybrid process they facilitated together, running over 4 days with multiple languages and timezones. They reflect on planning in advance, adapting in the moment and working well as a team. The full transcript is below. All of the team can be found on LinkedIn: Penny Walker:            https://www.linkedin.com/in/pennywalker/ Shanaka Dias             https://www.linkedin.com/in/shanaka-dias-8765b51/ Helene Jewell             https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson                https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Pilar Orti                      https://www.linkedin.com/in/pilarorti/   And you can find all of the links to IAF England and Wales on the Facilitation Stories website: https://www.facilitationstories.com/ SPEAKERS PO – Pilar Orti HJ – Helene Jewell NW – Nikki Wilson PW- Penny Walker SD – Shanaka Dias   PO  00:03 Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of facilitators also known as IAF. My name is Pilar Orti and I have the absolute pleasure of recording today with not one guest, not two, not three, but four. So first of all, let me introduce fellow co-hosts of the show Helene Jewell, hello, Helene.   HJ  00:26 Hello, nice to see you.   PO  00:30 Nikki Wilson. Hello, Nikki.   NW Hello.   PO  00:33 And I then like to welcome back to the show Penny Walker who first appeared in episode two of this show. So welcome back, Penny.   PW  00:40 Thanks very much. It's lovely to be here.   PO  00:43 And finally, first time guest and someone I've never chatted to before Shanaka Dias, welcome to the show.   SD  00:50 Thank you. Thank you for having me.   PO  00:52 So to have some proper introductions, I've asked each guest to prepare just two lines to introduce themselves. So we're going to say the same order in which I introduced you so that you'll know when it's coming. So Helene Jewell, we'd like to introduce yourself.   HJ  01:06 Hello,I'm Helene. I'm a freelance facilitator based in Bristol, and I work cross sector with all kinds of clients and Yeah, mostly team organisational development and strategy stuff.   PO  01:18 Excellent. Thanks, Helen and Nikki Wilson.   NW  01:21 Hello, I'm Nikki, I'm based in Essex and I run a social purpose business focusing on facilitation, research and strategic support. And as a facilitator, I particularly enjoy working on Deliberative Public Eengagement projects and Action Learning.   PO  01:39 Thank you. Thanks, Nikki and Penny Walker.   PW  01:42 Thanks, Pilar. I'm Penny. I'm an independent facilitator based in North London, and my specialism, I suppose is working with clients to have more effective conversations about tricky things. Maybe because they're complicated or there's conflict, or there's multiple parties. And those conversations are mainly about sustainable development topics. It might be climate change, it might be biodiversity loss. It might be I don't know social enterprises coming together. So those kinds of conversations. Yeah.   PO  02:14 Thanks, Penny, and Shanaka Dias.   02:17 Hello, I'm Shanaka. I'm based in London. I'm a freelancer. I work in the social sector with charities and foundations. And I guess my specialism is bringing people together to firstly have difficult conversations and to look at ways to come together around measure mission and vision and strategy.   PO  02:40 Thank you Shanaka. Thank you very much. Right. So the reason we have you all together for this very special episode, and we're really testing the platform as well, is that you all facilitated a trilingual hybrid session back in January 2023. Is that correct?   PW That's right. PO Yeah. So I'm going to be discovering what you did along with the listener and what your challenges were. So let's start with how did this collaboration start? And maybe Penny, you can kick us off?   PW 03:12 Thanks. Yes. So I'm trained to use a particular process called the Organisational Mapping Tool, which is something that is promoted by the Ford Foundation, a philanthropic funder based in the US, and one of the grantee organisations needed to use this tool as part of the grant conditions, and because I'm on the list, they came to me and they said, could you run this for us? And they said it's a little bit complicated, because we're going to it's going to be hybrid, and we know this, and I was not very comfortable with that. And I said, "Well, that is you know, it's going to cost you more, we're going to need a bigger team. And you know", they said y"es, that's fine, we're comfortable with hybrid£. And they said, "Oh, and by the way, we also need to do it in three languages. So and by the way, we would like to have other meetings going on, kind of with the people who are in the room together over the time", so I knew that I needed a big team. Nikki has worked with me before using this particular process once so I thought that she would be my first kind of "go to" person and I know that Helene had a great time helping out make the IAF England and Wales conference hybrid a couple of years ago, so I thought, I wonder if Helene will be up for being on the team. And then I asked I asked them who else they knew who they thought might be up for it and Nikki recommended Shanaka so that was how we came to be working together.   PO  04:42 Nice. Oh, I love that because of the you some of you have worked together there was a new elements into the into the four so I love it. Excellent. Nice and who were their participants then? If one of you feels like giving us just an overview of who they Were where they were located. And just a little bit of the logistics around the event. Helene.   HJ  05:05 So the participants were the staff from this organisation. And they were based in several different countries. And I can't completely remember which countries they were based in, but we had probably, Penny may tell me, I'm wrong, half of them in the room, and another half in different countries over Zoom. And so yeah, it was bringing their different different staff members from within the organisation together.   PO  05:34 And the people who were online, were they in their other countries together and online or individually online,   NW  05:41 I think it was quite a mixture, mostly on their own. Some of them were in the same country, but not sitting in a location together.   PO  05:50 Okay, so at least you had that and Penny can you do remember the countries of the participants?   PW  05:59 So we had some, we were working across multiple time zones, which was another kind of design challenge. So we had some people in Sub Saharan Africa, we had some in South America. I'm not sure if the people who were in kind of Asia Pacific managed to join us. And the other interesting thing about it was that we had some people who started online, and then were able to join us in the room, and vice versa. So there was someone who tested positive for COVID, partway through who went from being in the room to online. So that changed, so we needed to have really good understanding of who our participants were. And each morning, we would sit down with our key kind of client liaison and find out who was going to be in the room and who was going to be online, and what languages they were comfortable speaking in so that we could think about how we might do breakout groups, I can see Helene is rubbing her eyes, even just at the memory of it.   HJ 06:58 It's funny, because on the one hand, I sort of I remember, you know, I loved the challenge of being kind of quite, you know, think on our feet and all the rest of it. On the other hand, when I recall some of the elements, I think so "how did we do that?"   PO  07:11 Wow. So over four days. So that's interesting. Before we go into maybe how you prepared for it? Does that mean that during the four days? Did that look like you ,were you meeting before each session together? How are you checking in with the client who wants to have a bash?  Penny go for it.   PW  07:32 So we, it was over four days, but each day, we only worked on this particular event for half of the day. So the people who were in the room had other side meetings when they weren't in session. And that helped us overcome some of the timezone difficulties. And the other thing about it that people will be interested to hear is that three of our team were in the room, so Helene and Shanaka, and me were with the client and Nikki actually did all her work online. So our check-ins were over Zoom, so that we could make sure that that Nikki was there. And it also meant that Nikki was able to give us a really good insight as to what the online experience was like, because try as you might if you're in the room, that's that's the thing that pulls you. And it's very easy to neglect or not have a proper understanding of what the online experience is like.   NW 08:30 Yeah, I think sort of adding to that. The fact that I was purely online, and there was no temptation to even be in the room, I was in a completely different location made that a very pure experience as well. I think if we'd ended up swapping on and offline, it would have been, that would have been a bit more blurred. But it was very clear to me that I was experiencing it just as someone who was joining from anywhere else in the world apart from obviously, that English is my first language, so I didn't have that added layer, but I think that that really made it very focused on this is what the online experience is like.   PO  09:07 Yeah. And did you have interpreters as well? Is that right?   PW  09:11 Yeah. So the client tries to be, it's part of their push to be very inclusive and to make sure that they have for the work they're doing in country that it's with people who are from that country rather than, you know, white, Northern World kind of people parachuted in. So they they have quite a lot of experience of working in English, French and Spanish. And so they already had, not in-house, but they had interpreters who they have worked with a lot in the past and they taught us about Zoom's interpretation channel, which I don't think any of us had used before, so that was quite exciting. And they also were very comfortable using a translation software called Deepl, which I had not come across before, but does seem to be a kind of a really good bit of automatic translation software. So they were quite used as an organisation to at least trying to make that work. And that was something that I definitely felt I learned from the experience.   PO  10:24 Wow very heavy tech. Helene, were you going to say something?   HJ  10:27 No, I was just saying I had used the interpretation, software on Zoom before, but never, not with three different languages going on. And most certainly not with hybrid. So I think that the challenge was the sort of the added, you know, added bonus of not just one logistical challenge, which is working in three languages, but obviously, the hybrid element and making those two things work together.   PO  10:51 So you had everything interpretation, timezones, online versus in person and, and going and people turning up switching, I've never come across that, like people switching between the two mediums. So let's talk a bit about how you prepared for it. Shanaka, I'm going to go to you. Because for me, it feels like you were the one that was coming into, these three people already knew each other, so how did the group preparation look like? And also, from your point of view, what are some of the things you remember from the beginning of the process?   SD  11:26 I'm thinking back to it. So um, we had a quiet, a really structured plan. So Penny put together a really structured plan. But at the same time, we sort of knew we would have to be adaptable to that. So we tried as much as we could to look at the languages that people spoke, put them into groups, we tried to think about how we could mix up the group so that the same people speaking the same languages weren't only speaking to each other all the time. So we also tried to look at who was multilingual and mix up those groups, that had varying levels of success. And we also wanted to try and make sure that it wasn't just the people online speaking to each other, that they would be able to speak to people in the room as well. And that had varying levels of success as well. So we a lot of planning went into it. But then we had to adapt on the fly as things turned up, because there were a lot of moving parts. And I think the one thing that really stood out was just how well we managed to work together around that. And part of that was down to, I think, having clear roles. So we really defined what we were doing. We swapped out Helene and I swapped on the day because we were both in the room. So on each day, we would swap out what we're doing, and have a turn at it, but at the same time, even though we had clearly defined roles, we were flexible enough to help each other when different things started to happen. And that worked really, really well. The client, were really surprised that this was the first time that we were working together we were we got some great compliments off the back of that.   PO  13:09 Nice. Anything else to add about that preparation?   PW  13:13 Well, I think I, I wasn't really sure how to bring us together as a team and how to how to prepare for it. And I think I fell back on just trusting that if we got to know each other a little bit, that would be a really helpful platform. So our first kind of planning meetings when when we first kind of talked about it. Think I invested a bit of time in getting people just to say, kind of talk about their work and what they were interested in and what they were comfortable doing and not comfortable doing. And out of that emerged a little bit of what would be appropriate roles. And I think the team, let me know that if we did it, not that we necessarily would want to because it was very challenging. But if we did something like this, again, that the lead facilitator role in the room could be shared out a bit more than we did. I think I held on to that because I was anxious about, the thing that maybe hasn't come across so much in this conversation yet is how prescriptive the process was that we needed to go through using this Organisational Mapping Tool, which was a survey a whole staff survey of maybe, actually when you count them up individually, over 80 questions, and we needed to present the data and then get the group to kind of come to consensus around what the group score was based on the data and to have conversations about it. And there were glitches with the, with the form that was provided. So actually, some of the questions didn't properly record the data that people that, the responses that people put in Shanaka spent a lot of time between sessions combing through that manually and and brought a lot to that, and then so there was a lot of prescription in the process. And I kind of felt that I needed to make sure that we got through that, perhaps at the expense of the more interesting, creative, flexible kind of conversations that you might want to have when you bring all your staff together for for that amount of time. So I definitely felt some tensions. And it came. One of the things I thought about was the different kinds of compromises that we might need to make as a team. You know, we know we've got a compromise to make here. Are we going to favour this or that in the design and so on?   PO  15:33 Helene did did want to add something go for it, Helene?   HJ  15:36 Yeah, no, it was just the in that planning phase. So because Penny and Nikki had use this tool before, and were familiar with it, I think that was that was a really kind of interesting, but helpful dynamic, that they could bring their experience of having used it before. And I think that obviously informed the plan. But in that process, and in that, sort of uncovering the prescriptiveness as Penny's just said, I realised, one of the things I realised was that Shanaka in particular, is very good detail and I myself find very not a detailed person. So that I think then informed how we sort of played to our strengths when it actually came to working together because of the glitches and as Penny said, in the form, and the various things sort of to do with that detail of getting the data weren't quite as we wanted, Shanaka was able to sort of jump in and help. And then actually, as we, we did move on our feet throughout the process, it was that detailed kind of what I call Excel spreadsheet, nightmare stuff, I really didn't want to run away from that, but I realised he was really good at so that helped, you know, helped us work together to find and focus on a bit that we knew we were, you know, we could add to more   PO  16:49 Thank you, Shanaka is there something you wanted to add?   SD  16:54 Yes, actually, I was, I was gonna say, we, the overall feeling for me is we each held our space really well. So I was comfortable that Nikki was holding the space for the online group, so that I could let that go. And I could focus on the some of the detail and fixes that were needed. I was comfortable that Penny was holding the space in terms of the whole thing and giving us the space to work on some of the issues that we were having. And I was comfortable that Helene would be looking after the sort of people elements of it, and sort of providing that creative boost and the energy that was really, really needed. So that gave me the headspace to focus on dealing with some of the issues that we were having. And that was a very comfortable space to be in, even though all these things are happening at the same time.   PO  17:46 Thank you, Nikki talking about the preparation, maybe that you had to do to be online? Do you feel there was anything that was different or similar? How was that how was preparing to be the person who was holding the online cohort?   NW  18:05 Well, it was, it's very interesting, because I don't consider myself a techy person in particular at all. So having that as my kind of responsibility was quite interesting. So yeah, so that was quite interesting, I think particularly thinking about the multilingual aspects, the fact that they were going to be the interpreters who were joining online as well, and that they were sort of part of my cohort. But they were also supporting people in the room occasionally, was quite interesting. I think, as a person, I really like to plan everything. And so the kind of weekend before I was there, trying to arrange, you know, who would be in what breakout and how I could, and I had all these spreadsheets and lists and things. Of course, when it got into the room that went completely out of the window. And I had a notebook and a pen, and I was scribbling names down going, "well, this person's here today and that person isn't" and so I think, yeah, it was, it was probably quite a big lesson in thinking, well, you know, in many ways it does is not a use a good use of time to really spend lots of time preparing for those kinds of things. But I knew that for my own peace of mind, I needed to feel like I've done as much as I could to prepare for it. And then if I needed to wing it in the room, that was fine, because there was nothing more I could have done. So I think there was that aspect to it.   I suppose just thinking about how we made sure that there felt like there was a level of equal space for online and in the room people and I think that's that's an ongoing challenge with an event like this, because there is no way that those experiences are the same. And I had some people who were joining at sort of 4am in the morning, and for some of them, it was the middle of the night, you know, their energies were different at different times a day and I couldn't really have anticipated that but I think we was just trying to be as conscious as possible that there were these kinds of two parallel experiences and that we were going to need to learn as we went as to how that worked.   PO  20:11 Nice. Thank you. And just touching on that, I think, yeah, let's touch on that, on the, the experience of the people in the room and the online. So let's focus on the hybrid aspect. What were some of the things that you, you planned? And the ones that one were they what are some of the things that you did in order to, to keep it as one whole, like a feeling of sense of whole?   PW  20:37 Well, I think it'd be lovely to hear from everybody on this, because I think we'll have different perspectives. But there was one thing that we did, that was I think it's fair to say that I was quite uptight at the beginning of the process, and by the time we got to maybe the beginning of day three, I felt able to kind of make jokes I'd be, I'd be a bit more relaxed. But we did a kind of an icebreaker, where we knew we couldn't get everyone because a very large group, we knew we couldn't get everyone to speak. But I asked some questions that were a bit like the kind of "the sun shines on" kind of process. So I asked "who is currently the, or who has been the furthest north in the world?". And we got a story from people who thought they probably had been the furthest north, and then who's been the furthest south, and we got stories from people who thought they'd been further south, and then "who's, who's nearest the equator now?". And that was a way of making sure that we brought in at least, there was an opportunity for some of the people online who I knew would be geographically,we weren't very near the Equator in the UK, so there was that question and that worked quite well to, to bring in the people who were online, because we knew just by geography, that, that would be an opportunity for them to say something. We also asked about, who's got who thinks they've got the most unusual pet? And someone, actually, who was, who was joining online from their garden, picked up a tortoise and showed it to the camera. And we've got some other great kind of pet related stories. And then I also, at a different time, asked people to tell us about a local delicacy, that's a food that's special to your, to your kind of country or culture that you think other people won't have eaten. And we did get quite a good variety of, of stories. And I think that was the question that got the most engagement from people online. And also probably challenged the interpreters, poor things. But, but let's hear from some of the others ,   PO  22:36 That's great, for it, Helene.   HJ  22:38 Yeah, so from a technical point of view, rather than a process point of view, necessarily. I know, one thing that we got good feedback on was the fact we had a participant cam, which was, so they weren't unused to having hybrid meetings, , but the way that I think they commonly did them was just, you know, they had one camera, and it was kind of less, you couldn't see the room necessarily couldn't see individuals speaking and we had a tablet that Shanaka, I took turns in sort of running around the room, if you like, taking the camera, the tablet camera up to a participant, so you could speak directly into it. And apparently, that was really appreciated. So although it was a bit of, room space wasn't as easy as it might have been, there were a few things to kind of, logistical challenges of moving around it, let's say, but actually, I'm pleased that we managed to sort of do that quite often, you know, all the time to sort of help people to kind of actually, you know, show when they were speaking each time.   PO  23:39 And it's so nice when you have such a low tech process, like with an iPad, but that actually people see like you, you really are as a person making a genuine effort to include everyone. It's not just that you've got the best tech in the world, and you can do it. So anything else about what you did as a group, but also what you did personally maybe would be interesting. Nikki, Shanaka, if there is something so what else?   SD  24:04 I think just one additional thing that popped into my mind is we had to think about the translators as well. And we did get feedback, at one point that people were, they were finding it a bit difficult to translate at the speed that they were talking to. So we had regular reminders, once we had that feedback to get people to slow down, and I think we had a picture of a tortoise on the wall that we drew as a reminder for people to slow down as well. So we had to take that into consideration too.   PO  24:36 Wow, that dynamic you're trying to create all this energy and all this cohesion, but you've got to slow it down. That is like a real effort to keep the momentum while the speed can't go. Yeah, anything else   NW  24:51 As a team as well, that that kind of very set space where we reflect it together online as a team really It was beneficial that we, you know, we, we invested quite a bit of time in kind of a debrief for kind of how did it go? What can we do tomorrow kind of thing. So I didn't ever feel like through the team in the room although I was aware they were doing things that I was not party to, we were still always checking in so that we sort of had that grounding together each day. And that I felt like we'd had actually walked through what to expect rather than just being sent a plan by email that the others had all discussed, I think there was that important aspect of feeling like a hybrid team as much as creating a hybrid event for the participants as well, from my perspective, at least that that really was important to me, because I could easily have felt like I was just there to press buttons, really. So it's really important.   PO  25:52 Wow, from an inclusivity point of view, there's so many dimensions like you had okay, how do you feel as a team that you're all still together? How participants with the timezone aspect with the translators? Any anything about how you worked with the client, either anything you want to bring up either before, during, after Penny?   PW  26:13 Yeah, so the client had used the venue a lot before and was very confident that it would be fine. But I felt that I couldn't just rely on that. So I actually went to visit the venue, even though it was, it was a long way to go I took a whole day to go and visit the venue. But I think I might have even built that into my costing. So I think I knew when I did the costing, that would be important. And fortunately, it was quite close to where Helene's based, so Helene was able to come along as well. So actually two of the team had been to visit the venue and we had a much better idea of its limitations. The room was very dark, for example. So that meant it was even more important that we make an effort with the participant cam so that people online could get some sense of who was there rather than everyone being in shadow. The venue also did have in theory, Wi Fi everywhere, but we we stumbled when we tried to set up a hybrid breakout group in one particular area of the venue where it just wasn't up to it. So that was that was a bit tricky.   PO  27:25 And think about the client who are working through Yes.   PW  27:29 Oh, sorry. Yes, that's that was the thing. So what that? Sorry, I forgot what your question was. So all of that was around, that meant that Helene, and I got to meet a couple of people from the client team, they were extremely responsive, and really, that lovely mixture that you sometimes get with a client of being really competent and capable, but also quite laid back and flexible. So I think that really helped us and we met with them, they came to help us set up a couple of hours before the first session. So we were doing things together, we were swapping out bits of equipment that belonged to the client organisation or that we had brought with us. And we also included them in different debriefs. And I think that worked. I think that worked really well. And there was a, there was a point at which which we might come on to a little bit later, where the group kind of told us that they didn't like the process. And I think that was that was a really useful thing for us to have already built a sense of trust with the with the kind of client team that actually we personally, I sometimes feel anxious that I you know, am I performing well enough for the client? Am I you know, am I giving good service? and that sometimes is an anxiety for me, which makes, which can lead to me being inflexible. But I think we've built up enough of a good relationship, that actually flexibility at that point didn't feel like an admission of failure, like, oh, I should have planned this better. It just felt like a really natural thing to do in response to the group.   PO  29:04 Yeah, well, we will pick up on on that. Helene, anything else to add about working with a client?   HJ  29:10 Yeah, I was just thinking about the fact that we went to visit the venue beforehand. And how we also looked at just because I think I had tech focus as my role, partly, one of the things we did was find out what equipment they commonly use, because they work internationally, having hybrid meetings is not something that is they're not used to. So I think, us finding out what they used and trying to work with it rather than coming along and saying, "No, we're not going to use that, we've got this special way of doing it, we're going to do it our way". For me that felt quite important, that we built on what they had already, and tried to adapt it and add to it rather than just kind of you know, come in with our own system because I think then that helped make the setup a bit more a bit easier.   PO  29:58 Thank you. So we will already started to hear and listeners, they're all nodding at each other I have to tell you, it's like everyone's like," yeah". So, you've already started to, to mention some of the things that didn't quite work as well, maybe or, or that that could have worked better that you found out, you needed to adjust. So Shanaka, I'm gonna go back to you when you were talking about one of the challenges was about mixing people who were more comfortable with one language than another. You mentioned this earlier, that one of the ways in which you prepared to bring everyone together was by mixing people with different first languages and that, but you said it didn't go as well as? Or that there were some problems or I don't know how you phrased it. Can you tell us a little bit about that, how that looked like, and what were the issues that came up?   SD  30:48 Oh, I was more on the one of the responding party for this so there might be more detail coming from Nikki or Helen. Oh, great.   PO  30:56 So you were an observer?   SD  30:58 But yeah, yes, I think it was more. In particular, the one that comes to mind was when the Internet wasn't working properly. And we had a mixed group. And we'd planned how who would be in the groups, so we could swap them out. And we knew that we were quite careful to make sure that people could speak the right languages, and that people would feel supported both online and offline. But because the Internet didn't work, our groups weren't working. So they sort of came and ran to us and say, "This isn't working, we need to do something, can we like, join another group?", which then threw our plans out of who was in what group. So then we were just having to respond to all of that. And we were able to, it was a bit touch and go. But yeah, the client had an idea of what they wanted to do, and to get around it. And we just supported them through that. But yeah, our original plan didn't work. So we just adapted around it. And then we needed to keep track of who was where. So a lot of moving parts. But the client seemed happy afterwards. So they were okay with it. We were just a little bit stressed and had a few more wrinkles   PO  32:07 Oh the internet. And how about, yes, Nikki, we're going to say something.   NW  32:12 There was this sort of this kind of mindset shift that we needed to do of kind of the ideal world of what a perfect hybrid would look like, and the reality of what was achievable, that what was practical and didn't involve so much kind of complication that it took away from the process, I think I was very conscious that there was one group that were online, who more or less work together throughout the same process. But that was partly because there are a number of people who only spoke French, so we couldn't swap them in and out. And although we could bring other people in, they needed to all be together all the time, because of the way that the translation interpretation worked. And the fact that they were all online, so we couldn't do this kind of hybrid with the room. So I think in the ideal world, we would have swapped them around. In reality, I'm not sure it really took away from the experience. And it was very clear that we planned differently, but that, you know, practical barriers were in the way. So I think even that ethos of kind of, we're gonna try our best to make this mixed and, you know, interactive, but at least if everybody has a discussion that they can participate in, and that we try our best to kind of bring people together in the plenary sessions to kind of interact, then, you know, it was that, as I say, it was that balance between pragmatism and the ideal world, really, that we needed to keep revisiting all the way through,   HJ  33:41 I was thinking about the groups and the way, we had to kind of really keep an eye on the groups. And we did try and set up some mixed hybrid online and in person groups. And then we had, as I said, the different language groups, and we tried to mix them up at a fair bit. But in doing that, also, we, the bit that wasn't apparent to anybody online is that this venue had a number of different buildings. It wasn't just, it wasn't a hotel, let's say we've got, you know, shiny breakout rooms, it was spread over a little bit of a, an area. So Shanika, and I between us did spend a fair amount of time walking between buildings to check in the groups as well. So there was an added dimension of us having to actually, you know, physically go between different places and also work out which corners and which buildings have the right, the best Wi Fi. So there was there was another added level, if you like, running around trying to sort that out.   PO  34:39 Yeah, go for it Penny.   PW  34:41 So I'm just thinking, I can't believe we've got this far into the conversation and not mentioned the fact that we had a Miro board it was a place where we displayed the data, so the results the kind of responses to each question. And it was also the place where we expected groups to take, to write their kind of notes about, you know, that whatever discussion they'd had about the, the area of the survey that they'd been allocated. And it was also the place where we took notes in plenary of the conversations. And I'm not sure if we would make a different decision about how, I think we definitely needed a virtual space of some kind for written material. Some people found it, they were very unfamiliar with it, very unconfident using it. And there were also some particular aspects of Miro to do with whether you can pin things down, how movable things are on the board, whether things get lost. And also, if you type too much before clicking, somehow your text gets, there was one session where we had to basically remember afterwards, what had happened in the session for the plenary notes, because because we hadn't realised that Miro has a character limit, and everything had been written, but it somehow wasn't there.   HJ  36:02 So yeah, so fess up, it was me who was typing merrily, So Shanaka, and I took it in turns to live type, plenary conversation. So there was, you know, great, groups were feeding back. Penny was facilitating Shanaka andI took it in turns to type up the notes. And so I was merrily typing in Miro, and then eventually realised that it wasn't, I was typing, but nothing was on the Miro board, because it does have this character limit. So we were really quickly able to recall what we needed to and put it in a Google Doc. And actually, I think it is a lesson that just choose something simple when you're doing something like that, like a Google Doc or whatever, to, you know, type all the stuff you need to and then we can put it back into the Miro board later, it would have been much less stressful. But that's yeah, lesson learned.   PO  36:50 Listeners, they're all throwing their hands to their heads and nodding and smiling, and you can just feel the pain looking at them, Nikki?   NW  36:59 Well, actually, I'm honestly not because I didn't know anything about that. So you've never told me that, which is really interesting. I had no idea it was all fixed by the morning. But we did it at the very end piece. We might be jumping ahead here. But we asked for a longer form bit of writing. And in the end, I think a number of them defaulted to doing a Google Doc or something and just sending it to us. And you know, at the end of the day, they were able to read out some of the things that they'd said, and we didn't actually need all of the detail on the Miro board then and there. And we were able to capture it in a different way. So again, there's that is always that balance, isn't it between something that if it worked perfectly would be the ideal tool. And then there's the practical aspects of people needing to use it other people with that kind of tech when they haven't got great internet access, when they're not all as familiar with technology. And but yes, I can't believe that there was that issue that I had no idea about? Because you obviously were fixing it, probably late into the night when I was tucked up in my bed. But yeah,   SD  38:08 I would say um, once again, that was that was in a way, that was a lovely moment as well, because I remember the stress of us realising the notes, were not there. A significant portion of notes were not there. And Penny, you just came in and held the space and said, Okay, let's prove, and let's look at what we can do. We've all worked, you know, we can start taking notes from what we remember. And then together, we sort of all brought it together. But it really helps having that calm space to do that, rather than everybody getting worried. So it worked quite well in the end. But it was a stressful moment.   PO  38:41 Yeah, for you. It's great when you can say how much you learned from it, and how well it was handled? Yes, plenty.   PW  38:50 So So I've experienced a funny sort of split personality at those sorts of moments, because I think about how terrible I would feel if if, if that were me, and and if I were about to get kind of told off for having made such a terrible mistake. And so I kind of feel that anxiety. And at the same time, I'm thinking like some other great facilitators who I've worked with where I've been part of the team and they've been the lead facilitator, you know, what would they have done at this moment, that would have been the perfect thing for me to be on the receiving end of and try to channel that. So being able to say, look, you know, nobody died. We can, we can only do what we can do, let's see what we remember, you know, we're all doing a fantastic job. And I felt it was really important to keep reminding myself and and the team I kind of felt that slight sense of team leader responsibility to remind us all of how great we were doing as it went along because different different ones of us had different moments. Whether it was beforehand, you know, Nikki's described worrying about what the grouping was going to be Like, or whether it was kind of partway through, you know, we can, we can do a better job if we're all just realising that we're already doing a great job, and that it's all fine. And that the whatever solution we come up with, you know, will be a good solution   PO Thanks, Nikki   NW  40:16 And I think this, this, again, might not be the right moment for this. But I think that, then what Penny said just had a particular resonance for me around this kind of team energy that actually having four of us in the team, that clearly this was a very intense process, it was quite tiring, even though I was sort of, I was really buzzing at the end, which is this, again, this weird kind of mix. But that we probably all had dips and peaks of energy at different times. And we were able to adapt to that and kind of carry each other through, you know, like somebody's having a difficult moment with something. And we were probably, even though we weren't all together, we were aware that someone was having to focus on fixing something or whatever, the rest of us could just go, alright, we'll deal with everything else. And it was sort of one of those things where probably we hadn't really engineered it, it just happened. And it was just really fortunate that as a group, we were able to work well in that way. Because we probably all have a slightly different energy about us, things that we bring to a space that the others don't. And so there was just this kind of really fortunate gelling of the team, which allowed us to kind of maintain a fairly consistent energy outwardly whilst having dips and peaks individually. So yeah.   PO  41:40 That's a really nice point. So before we, before we start to wrap up and just ask you, I'm going to just ask you individually for some reflections, don't we'll just go around the four of you. But I did want to come back. Just just to touch on. Penny, you mentioned that at some point, the participants or the group said that they were not liking the process. Is that right? So what happened?   PW  42:04 Well, there were two aspects of the process that people didn't like. One was how kind of laborious and time consuming going through the survey was. And I would say that they were right. It is boring and time consuming. And it's kind of a mandatory part of the process. And in a way, my strategy at that point was to was to be on their side and say, yeah, it is that but it's a funding requirement. So you know, let's, let's just make the let's make the best of it. The second bit was the bit where it got interesting from a participant conversation point of view was when they had been through the whole survey, and they had an opportunity to prioritise three aspects of all of the things that the survey covered it to look at it in more detail. And I proposed, I think, I think my proposal was that on day four, we would spend our time doing that deep dive using a kind of, I think I suggested a carrousel process. Or maybe we weren't divided into six groups to start with, do a kind of bit of a brainstorm on what good looks like for each of the three priorities. In fact, in the end, the group rebelled even more and had four priorities even though the process prescribes three. And that they would then I can't even remember what I proposed, it was either that they would do it as a carousel, or that they would just have to pick one. And just deep dive on that. And they said, "Actually, we don't want to do that we we want to give an opportunity for everybody talk about the thing that they're most interested in". And I think because we had talked about it quite exhaustively as a team, because I was conscious that there wasn't actually a single perfect bit of process. We talked about, shall we do it this way? Shall we do it that way? Shall we carousel it? Shall we do it in three groups? Do people get to choose their groups? How important is it that all of the three priorities get kind of equal number of people talking about them? Because we had, because I changed my mind quite a lot and talked through some different options with the team. I felt like I was like, I had a kind of unwritten mandate from the rest of the team to basically say, okay, yeah, we there isn't a perfect process here. You know, I can see what the downsides are of your suggestion, which was that they divide into small groups and each group work on the one it's most interested in to start with, and then choose other ones and basically have an opportunity to work through up to four priorities. In the time that we had, I felt able to say, "  Okay, well, I can see that there are some downsides to this. And as long as you're happy to accept those potential downsides to accept those risks, then absolutely, you know, do it the way you want." And we had a bit of conversation back and forth with the people in the room. I'm trying to remember whether anyone online actually got involved with that conversation. It's in my memory, it's very much an it was very much an in the room conversation. But I don't know whether anyone online got involved. Do you remember,   NW  45:23 I don't think particularly because it was quite fast moving and dynamic. Obviously, we hadn't planned that, the conversation to go that way. And it was sort of bouncing around the room. And I suppose on reflection, perhaps kind of advocating more for having a small discussion with the online group might have at least felt like they'd contributed, even though I don't think anybody objected to the way it went, if you see what I mean. I don't think anybody online did but at the same time, it was probably two or three people in the room actually, that proposde something kind of adapted it a bit together, and everyone went, "Okay, that sounds reasonable". And, you know, we needed to make fairly rapid decision because we only had whatever it was an hour or so left of the day to kind of put people in groups and have this discussion. It's important to note that this whole process is framed as a starting point, it's actually about opening up the discussion helping people to identify priorities, but it's never meant to kind of be conclusive. And that actually, we were just giving them space to" start teasing out some of the issues within those priorities. But  making that clear, as well. And saying, Whatever you do now, is something that you can take away and build on," we were able to let go of the kind of output of that discussion a little bit more and just go, you know, the value is the fact that this is an opportunity that you don't often have to all come together to discuss these things. And then what happens is your choosing really, so was that really, that helped, again, as well as the fact that Penny had some clear sort of options and parameters that we had considered to then say, you know, we can adapt to this, because we want the out output for you to be as valuable as it could be, you know, we're not hung up on what that looks like, necessarily. So   PW  47:15 I think the other thing about the client organisation, and the group that we were working with, is that compared to most groups, they were quite process literate. I think they probably used quite a lot of participatory conversations of different kinds in their actual work as an organisation. So there were people who had the language and you know, had quite clear rationale for the views that they were expressing about the process that they should use.   PO  47:47 Yeah, I suppose that's, I suppose that's quite unusual as well. Yeah. In such a big group as well. Great. Well, what a nice, I think this is a perfect place to to wrap up. So I'm going to just ask you for some quick reflections. Shanaka, we'll start with you. It could be something that you learned that you enjoy that you want to share with listeners, I'm just going to leave it open. So Shanaka some final words from you. Thank you,   SD  48:12 I've taken a lot of what we've done then actually into other facilitation work. So a lot of learnings and that is very much about letting go of the process. Sometimes even though you can prepare, you can let go of the process and trust the participants to be able to do something, as well as bringing in a bit of humour and icebreakers just to create that bonding. That has worked really well. So yeah, I've taken that into further jobs. And it was just such a lovely team to work with. And that balance of energy, as Nikki said, us holding the space and getting us through the ups and downs just worked amazingly. So it was a great experience. Helene   HJ  48:53 Yeah, I think like Shanaka that allowing for the process to go a little bit sideways. And and that sort of management of that, definitely, I've learnt from that. And I've actually had a client recently that I've, I've really been able to sort of take a step back with and let the participants say that actually, they don't want this. They want it to work a different way. And sort of reflecting on this experience thinking yeah, actually, that that's okay to do that. And I think the other thing is, is this sort of team dynamic as well, and Penny's kind of what I call gentle leadership, you know, we felt very much like a strong team. And I don't often, you know, I'll often facilitate with one other facilitator, but not a team like this and it was just such a rewarding and really positive experience.   NW  49:38 Having done the process twice as well, that was a really interesting reflection, that the previous time that Penny and I had worked through this process, it was all online with it, even though that one in theory was much simpler. I felt that this one was had a much more kind of dynamic energy about it. And I really enjoyed the second one a lot more I think, partly because we felt a bit more able to let go of some of the process. And so there was that comfort in kind of knowing where we were trying to get to, but thinking actually, you know, we can be a bit more flexible with it, it's a kind of constant reminder, really, there's only so much planning you can do. And that, whilst that might give me comfort to feel I've done it. And you know that I do need to do that to feel like when I do need to be flexible, it's fine. You know, like, actually, this is just what's happening in the moment. It's a really a constant personal learning to keep applying that there's a bit that's planning. And there's a bit that just goes, I've planned for the fact that I would know I will need to adapt to this. And I don't know what's going to happen. And actually, that's part of the fun. Having a team alongside you to adapt with makes all the difference, though, because dealing with all of the challenges coming at you on your own is a completely different kettle of fish, I think for me to, to use an unusual phrase, but yeah.   PO  51:00 Great, and Penny.   PW  51:03 Well, so I think my closing reflections are a bit of a, an advert for getting involved in the IAF, whether you're a member or not, because actually, it's not just knowing somebody or having somebody kind of recommended to join part of a team, the fact that that Helene and I had kind of seen each other in action, if you like, at if events and experimented together at events, the fact that Nikki and I had worked together on teams that other people had brought together, there's nothing like feeling Yes, I've worked with that person, you know, albeit not in a client context. I've worked with them, I know that they're, you know, that they can bring something to a team. So anyone out there who's thinking, I don't know how I would bring together a team of additional people to do a piece of work, actually, you know, get involved, whether it's online or in person at some of those events. And, and that way, you know, you'll just have a much broader pool of people who when you need to bring together a team, you can think actually, yeah, I know. I know who I want to ask for this.   PO  52:07 Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for that. It is a great resource. So remember, listeners, that Facilitation stories is brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of facilitators, also known as IAF. Well, thank you very, very much listeners for staying with us. Thank you so much to our guests, Helene Jewell, Nikki Wilson, Shanaka Dias and Penny Walker. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.   And that's the end of today's episode of Facilitation Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email podcast at IAF-EnglandWales.org Or you can get all the other links from our website Facilitation Stories.com. This has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.

In this episode of Facilitation Stories Pilar is joined by Sue Bird, who is a European public affairs specialist and facilitator. Sue ran a session on facilitating for government at the recent IAF conference. She talks about how pleased she was to be able to attend the IAF England and Wales conference in Birmingham recently, and how it was great to be able to meet fellow facilitators and understand how they're running their business, how they do facilitation. She talks about how she does both European Public Affairs consultancy work AND facilitation.  Sue reflects on a session she attended at IAF England and Wales about structuring your facilitation business. She set up her own business a year ago, following her 30 years work for the European Commission in a number of different policy areas, and in funding programme management. She wanted to set up a business that would play on these strengths and use the training she has received in the Art of Hosting and Participatory Leadership with the European Commission. She used this in her job to help in team building process, strategy development and other areas while employed with the Commission. She still helps them out in this way still as an "Active Senior".   On the topic of how well embedded facilitation is into the European Commission, Sue mentions that the tools they use at the European Commission are well known tools, such as the World Café. She thinks that facilitation is about marrying passion and profession.  Sue talks about the very generous training offers in the European Commission and how she was attracted to facilitated meetings and realised that this was something she really wanted to get trained in. The Commission trained people to a good enough point to try them out as internal facilitators. Her facilitation work was in addition to her ordinary 40 hour week.  Sue describes the different types of work that she is able to offer now and how facilitation links into the public affairs she gets involved in. Pilar asks how facilitation in government might be different to other sectors.  Sue explains that there are political processes that affect these different organisations and that being involved in politics is a very human experience. She talks about how uncertainty can arise and how there is often pressure on public officials. She also talks about when there are changes in the working environment and how reorganisation of services can happen every now and then. When change is in the air, there is quite a bit of uncertainty and, as in all large organisations, people's opportunity to influence what they do is limited.   All of this will affect how people show up to facilitated sessions and how a facilitator needs to manage this. Pilar asks whether when working with people in government, people might not be able to be as open. Sue says that there would probably be a minimum amount of openness but that it will be up to the procurer of the service to set the scene. The facilitator will need to build up a trusting relationship with the client. On the subject of working as a facilitator in an institution with people of different nationalities, Sue mentions the possible challenge of language. She will be soon facilitating a session in French, and although she is fluent, this will be harder work. International organizations tend to create a culture of their own, and there's a certain understanding that broadly facilitators need to accept that and work with it. Sue shares a little about her role with the IAF Belgum chapter and their 24 members. They have two different types of meeting each month. The focus of one of them is on sharing tools that educate, while the other is called a "Facilitators Studio", where people can experiment. One recent topic has been different decision-making tools. To connect with Sue Bird  on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-bird-037311129/ You can connect with Pilar Orti on Twitter https://twitter.com/PilarOrti Listen to our podcasts:  https://www.facilitationstories.com/   And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories   

In today's episode Nikki talks to Ann Nkune about her rediscovery of Appreciative Inquiry.  Ann is a facilitator working with charities, social enterprises and the public sector helping people to increase their impact and be sustainable. Her work over the last 10 years has been parent friendly start up and career development programmes for women operate in the environmental and social impact sector.  Ann describes a Linked In post that she recently wrote about Appreciative Inquiry (AI) where she was able to connect with other AI enthusiasts to talk to about it, help her work through the complexities and challenges and think about what more she could do when facilitating. And how she had fallen back in love with it having not used it for a while.   Ann talks about the premise of AI and how most theories of change are about identifying a problem or risk. Whereas AI says that change is much more likely to happen when people understand where their strengths and the strengths of an organisation are, and can have a level of enthusiasm and optimism that change is possible. So AI increases the positive energy that comes from a group even when there are tricky things so they can see their way through the difficulties.   She describes some examples of AI and the process which starts with a topic and going through 4 stages; DISCOVEREY (proud/pivotal moments and skills and qualities), DREAM (allows people to step back and see the big picture and how she encourages people to be creative) - Ann shares an example of creating playdough toilets! DESIGN (what is the reality and what are the options) and DELIVERY (commitment to action and major projects that are required to get to the dream stage).   Ann tells Nikki how she had rediscovered AI in lockdown when doing goal setting online. She remembered how she first started to use it several decades ago and how she was initially quite cynical about it, but that AI gave the people she was working with a new perspective.   She shares her observations and different uses; for individual discussion e.g. mums of young children as a way of capturing their strengths, bringing together people in teams to build relationships in new ways. She describes how energising it is in a group and to be visionary even if they don't think they are.   Nikki asks how her thinking about it has evolved....Ann says she has a recognition that where situations are complex and there is anxiety or conflict that there needs to be a pre-briefing, something that happens pre-process so that people have an opportunity to vent and get things off their chest, and process so they can decide what is crucial to bring in and what can be left out, and to understand what is going to happen in the process.   She also describes how she discovered Time to Think by Nancy Klein and the thinking environment and how this requires a particular type of listening and questioning. Operating the AI process using thinking environment principles really improves it. She also considers conflict and Non Violent Communication as a potentially something to use before AI. She is also a fan of mindfulness as a way of preparing for these conversations.   Nikki asks about the preparation and getting to know the context when using AI . Ann says she doesn't do this as much as she used to when she felt she needed lots of facts. But now she needs to know that people are in the right frame of mind to do the process. She prepares well but doesn't get too bogged down in the details.   Ann shares some examples of using AI – individual work with women who have taken the leap from prevaricating to putting something in place and taking practical steps (using AI and the Lean Canvas). In terms of organisations she has done quite a few team building sessions, building relationships between board members and staff, allowing them to work more effectively.   To connect with Ann Nkune on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ann-nkune-6a08b211/?originalSubdomain=uk or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/bloomsburybeginnings/?hl=en and her webasite is: https://bloomsburybeginnings.org/  You can connect with Nikki Wilson on Twitter @NiksClicks  Listen to our podcasts:  https://www.facilitationstories.com/   And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories       

In this episode Pilar talks to Paul Kelly and Caroline Jessop about co-facilitation.  Caroline is a facilitator based just outside Winchester. She describes herself as a creative facilitator and enjoys the things that leave people upbeat and energised.   Paul is the founder of Pandek Group which is a Facilitation, Training and Coaching business based in the South West specialising in bridging the disconnect within organisations. He uses Lego Serious Play as one of his facilitation tools.   Paul and Caroline have recently worked together on an away day that focused on the disconnect within teams in a professional organisation. They had already had a conversation about wanting to do some work together when this piece of work came up.   Caroline describes herself as a born collaborator and how she and Paul have similar expertise but different styles. She felt this piece of work was quite serendipitous and had space in her diary to explore the "gritty" brief.   It was also a learning opportunity for them each to experience someone else working and their different techniques. Challenging, questioning, evaluating and rationalising, and reflecting on their own practise.  An example of this was in writing the plan and the level of detail, the order of the process.   Paul's way of thinking about co-facilitation is that:  You can get someone to support you and for example get materials ready. Or they can act as a backup if there is illness or emergency.   You can have co-facilitation when you are taking turns to deliver even though there may be one person leading on contracting, delivery and design.  Joint facilitation – includes everything that is co-facilitation but the design is done together too.  Collaboration facilitation - All of the above including the contracting and even sourcing the work in the first place.   You need to have an open and honest conversation about whose brand you are going under in the first place.   Paul and Caroline's collaboration followed the following stages  Meeting with the client to pitch together – this was quite organic, and they both asked questions to get a broader understanding of the brief than they might have done on their own.   Putting together a headline plan – Caroline was keen to use a particular methodology that she included. This was followed by some tweaks and discussions with the client.   Paul then took the lead on making it come to life and they used SessionLab to add structure to the plan.  They were able to ask each other probing questions to check the plan.   Prior to this piece of work, they were both on the IAF England and Wales conference planning team together and Paul also worked as part of a team of facilitators when Caroline brought in several facilitators for a piece of work.  Caroline has co-created sessions with a number of people and says this broadens your perspective, and the diversity of experience teaches you things you didn't know that you didn't know.   Creating the outline for them was okay but the client needed more detail and several iterations of the plan. It helped that two people were listening and gave clarity and confidence in what they were proposing.   Caroline and Paul were on WhatsApp, behind the scenes during the meeting with their client and this created a good flow of conversation between them. Being listened to by multiple people by the client is always a good thing.   They did the budget conversation live online with the client and they were able to use Whatsapp to do this. They had had a previous conversation about budgets and knew the suggested rate in advance.   Throughout this project, Caroline and Paul learned that:  You need a growth mindset if you are going to work in front of a peer and take the feedback. This is a good challenge to have.   Balance of clarity over how you would do it and the benefit of doing it that way needs to be as ideal as it can be for the client and this can be tough to hear that someone else may do this differently.   Because of the complexity of the piece of work it was important for them to have had a chance to recharge and share what they did and to discuss when it got really tricky.   Here's some advice for someone who is going to co-facilitate or work with another facilitator for the first time:  Do it – you are learning as you are doing.  Listen with positivity – there are different ways of doing things it's your opportunity to share as well as experience them.  Jump in and try it.  Be mindful of what the client is asking for.   Connect with Paul Kelly: [email protected] -  https://pandek.org/   Connect with Caroline Jessop: [email protected] - https://clearmeetings.co.uk/  And you can connect with your host, Pilar Orti on Twitter. https://twitter.com/PilarOrti   

In today's episode, Helene talks to Catherine Wilks about her experience of running a session at last year's conference. They talk about The Shoopery, working on instinct and play, adapting the plan as you go along, the power of letting go and the plans for the April 2023 conference.  Catherine was introduced to the IAF and the idea that she may actually be a facilitator by Cat Duncan Rees (IAF England and Wales Treasurer). She set up the Shoopery with Pip and Alfie. Having met at a Mental Health organisation and used mental health services themselves, they realised that there was the need for something to happen in between waiting for appointments. They developed lots of different ideas and workshops and realised they were good at helping people let go.  Enter "the Shoop". Everybody's Shoop can be different – which Catherine describes as positive, upbeat, out of your comfort zone experiences. When people experience their shoop, they say that at the point of letting go they are comfortable with being themselves. People don't just want to cope with life, but live. Through their sessions, Catherine and her colleagues help bring things out that may have been squashed for a while and this helps people know that they matter. "If you know that you matter, that changes everything in life." At last year's conference, everybody ended up talking about lemons. Catherine explains what the lemons were about, the "toy of the conference", and she talks about wanting to make surprising things happen.  Their session at the conference had 3 times more people attending than expected and so they ended up running it outside. The aim was to try out lots of different things and to get to the point when people start to bond and trust each other and learn to work as a group. Throughout the session, they had conversations about what letting go feels like, what gets in the way and what helps. The aim was to do something that you didn't think you would do through little Shoop nudges.  Catherine has learnt that actually she is a facilitator and that the conference is a really wonderful space to test things out. She felt everyone was really supportive and she now feels part of the community. She has volunteered to help organise this year's conference which is at a Quaker House in Birmingham this April 2023. Tickets are already selling and lots of people are talking about it – the forms are also out now for submitting their session ideas. Catherine will be doing another session at this year's conference about awakening instinct. She is excited about the conference themes around professional development and peer support and talks about how facilitation is such a diverse field that there are those who don't call themselves facilitators, but are using facilitation in their work.  Find out more about Catherine at https://www.theshoopery.com/ and on Twitter  And connect with Helene via Twitter too.  Find out more about the IAFEW conference in April and get tickets here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/facilitate-2023-celebrating-and-sharing-the-diversity-of-facilitation-tickets-493851401837 And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories or https://www.facilitationstories.com/ 

In this episode Nikki talks to Lucy Hawthorne who for the past year has been experimenting with bringing playfulness to conversations about climate. Lucy is a facilitator by trade and an environmental campaigner by background and has been exploring the link between playfulness and climate action for around five years. In the latter stages of her campaigning work, Lucy was at her most successful, including involvement in the ban on fracking in the UK, but was also at her most jaded. She was becoming adept at political maneuvering but not really shifting people's hearts and minds, and began to think about how to engage people more deeply in this important subject.  As she moved into facilitation she began to look for the antidote to the lack of deep engagement and realised that people were being scared into action, but crushed into apathy. Maybe plan was the antidote.  Lucy has spent a lot of time thinking about what play means and how it is both a set of tools and a mindset.  The project hasn't developed in quite the way Lucy expected but the end point is roughly where she was expecting. Initially Lucy thought this might be like a research mission looking at different elements of play and climate, systematically interviewing people and writing up findings, and at the end of the year, she'd have a pseudo evidence-base on the benefits of play in climate action.  But being playful and iterative about the process, Lucy has found other ways forward, asking the same questions but being less methodical about recording the evidence and dived quicker into action, prototyping and testing the concepts and principles out with people. Lucy uses Lego a lot in this work as it has a low barrier for entry.  It's familiar for people and Lucy describes it as the "trojan horse", getting people in as they think it's fun and whacky but then having conversations that are fun but also serious and at times quite profound. She is also interested in play more generally, and talks about techniques such as improv, drama and art as different mechanisms of playfulness. Lucy is particularly interested in how to get people involved in a conversation that they generally avoid, or avoid having as deeply as they could do. Lucy tries to use tools that make it easy to get started. Nikki asks Lucy what prompted her to put the ideas into action.  Lucy feels this isn't really a choice: climate action is urgent and theory isn't very useful, there's a need to give things a go and iterate to see what works.  It's also about Lucy embodying in her practice as a facilitator, the things she's talking to other people about.  For Lucy, playfulness is about curiosity, experimentation and going with the flow which is counter to her experience as a campaigner.  She's pushed herself to give things a go, to run events and have conversttions with people that previously would have terrified her- and counting that as playfulness. They move on to talk about how Lucy has used a prototyping approach.  Her first event posed the question "How playful is the climate movement?", and this helped set up different avenues of enquiry for Lucy, both on how people relate with climate change but also how they relate with play as adults.  She's found a network of people who've helped to "chew the process through".  She then started iterating workshops, online and in person, using Lego Serious Play for different audiences, and looking at different aspects such as emotions and blockers to action  She's also done in-house company events and lectures, talking about principles around play and how it might relate to climate action. Nikki asks about the challenges and opportunities of using a physical medium such as Lego both on- and off-line.  Lucy has found the kinds of conversations people have had have been different.  Face to face conversations have generally catalysed a sense of connection, but because online is slightly more independent, people have noted a high level of quiet reflection.  Lucy also notes that with the online work has allowed the reach of the work to be much wider, involving participants globally. Lucy talks about some of the logistical challenges, using second hand lego as far as possible and finding ways to incentivise people to return it.  It's also a challenge to work on in 2023 as she's keen to make this accessible to people whether or not they have Lego at home, wherever they are in the world.  Lucy has enjoyed the online sessions but also feels there's nothing like being in a room with a table full of toys. It's been a rich year of learning for Lucy, mainly that there is "just something about play" and the word "play" that is different to parallel words.  Lucy's convinced that if she changed the wording it wouldn't be as effective.  She's found it seems to appeal more to women and this is something she wants to unpick further.  She's also found these freeing, playful techniques are most effective when talking about the difficult emotions associated with climate change, and "moments of stuckness". From this learning she now understands her mission to be how to make it safe, light and fun to talk about climate change, so that people can engage more deeply, honestly and creatively with the subject. Lucy and Nikki do a live demonstration of some mini Lego Serious Play exercises building on the metaphors that are the basis for Lego Serious Play. Lucy is curious to continue exploring her role in how to support people to make faster progress and move into more radical action. Lucy is ready to launch Climate Play as an organisation in its own right and will now be diving deeply into this work, particularly helping businesses to solve climate blockers and how to partner with other people working to the same ends and help them increase the impact of their work.  There will be a full series of events, more in-house workshops and exploring the broader principles of what it means to have a playful mindset.  Links: To find out more about the Climate Play project: https://www.climateplay.org/ To attend future events:  https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/o/lucy-hawthorne-founderfacilitator-climate-play-29888274577 LinkedIn for Lucy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucyhawthorne Nikki on Twitter: @NiksClicks

We wrap up the year talking to three hosts of our Meetups to find out what's been going on in their regions: what common themes have emerged throughout the year and their plans for 2023.  Join our Meetups in person, or online (you can join any region when you join online!).  https://www.meetup.com/iaf-facilitators-and-friends/ 01.41mins Helene Jewell tells Pilar Orti what's been going on in the South West facilitators meetups. 12.38mins Megan Evans, co-host of the Wales/Cardiff meetup with Tanya Nash tells Nikki Wilson about what they've been up to. 15.46mins Adrian Ashton tells us all about what him and other facilitators have been up to in the "We are Northern" meetup - it involves plenty of zoom selfies that you can follow through #IAFMeetup. Connect with our guests on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-evans-consultant/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanya-nash-7576b837/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrianashton/ And follow Facilitation Stories on Twitter @fac_stories  Nikki Wilson is @NiksClicks on Twitter Pilar Orti is... @PilarOrti 

Today we have a treat for you: Nikki Wilson interviews two guests who use photography as part of their facilitation practice. Gianpietro Pucciariello and Chris Chinnock. Our first guest is Gianpietro Pucciariello, who returns to the show after appearing in episode 15. Gianpietro's working life in the UK is divided into two: he's a start up founder and a sole trader that covers many roles.  He supports mission-drive individuals and communities to building social environmental impact communities and ecosystems.  For this he uses creativity and innovation practices, coaching focus conversations and collective learning experiences.  His last project is called From Lens to Self, through where he connects learning from different areas in his life. He's developed for others a 3hours outdoor walking self-development journey, using photography for self-exploration. Participants can use their cameras or phones to take photographs to visualise their problems, using metaphors to connect to the problem, and help the problem surface.  At the end of the workshop, individuals create a plan of action to take their learnings forward. In essence, photography here is a tool for self-discovery and research, in the present, within our present environment. This idea has its origins right back in Gianpietro's childhood and adolescent. As an introverted child, he liked to observe in silence, and he used to spend a lot of time in the photography shop of his aunt and uncle. The passion for photography increased later on in life and it became a way of self-expression, especially during the time that his father's neurological disease was worsening.  Around 2013, Gianpietro joined a photo journalist course about telling stories through photography, and this turned out to be one of the best decisions of his life. Rediscovering photography led to him leaving a job he wasn't happy in, and led him to become a facilitator and nurturer of others.  Now he's using photography as an organic processing for self-reflection and understanding the world around us. We need to be present in the moment, in a similar way to facilitation.  He's now looking at blending different practices, for example from the art of hosting,  open space technology, embodiment and clean language.    Gianpietro has been running these workshops and has had good feedback, so he knows that the process works for other people as well as himself. The workshop will run in the weekends as the weather is getting colder, but he's looking to have longer events in the spring, a kind of "Lens to Self Plus". He's also looking into building a community around this practice, with follow up exercises; as well as a few interactive email-based course about creative leadership, mindfulness and problem solving, all starting using photography.  There's a lot to think about when you are in charge of a group, walking around a London area taking photographers, so Gianpietro has a list of things he does to make sure people are, and feel, safe under his care. The fact that the workshops take place in a group helps participants form their ideas through talking to others.  To make sure Gianpietro keeps his instructions clear and precise, he makes sure when he communicates each task to the participants, he only uses five words to do so.  You can find out more about From Lens to Self here: https://gianpy.carrd.co/  https://www.eventbrite.com/o/gianpietro-pucciariello-50327260933 ———— 27.06mins Nikki's second guest on the show is Chris Chinnock, the Founder of the social enterprise Our Creative Connection, which uses photography as a tool for social change. Chris spent about five years exploring asset-based community development, travelling around the UK delivering training and attending events talking about the ways in which organisation and communities interact. His professional career has always had a thread of community development and creativity running through it.  Alongside that, he's also been interested in photography and has worked as a freelance photographer. During the pandemic he was thinking about, in essence, what he wanted to do with his life and re-evaluating the time he was spending outside vs inside the home. He's now able to draw on a range of things that inspire him and which he thinks are important. The role of photography in community development, or a community context was one of the first thoughts around Our Creative Connection.  "Photo voice" is a methodology applied mainly in academic research to get feedback in a visual time. Chris is now offering "photo voice" to explore how images and creating photographs can invite new conversations, without needing to start with words, or only use words. He's also been taking portraits in people involved in an organisation celebrate its 10th anniversary, gathering their stories. He's now opening the first dark room photography and printing workshop.  What he's taken from his previous roles as facilitator: the mindset of how you plan for workshops, when you're creating the space for people to develop; he's also been heavily influenced by Peter Block's work around the impact they have on people depending on how they show up.  Chris uses photography also to explain what he does, giving him a different starting point, a more open one. And of course, there's not a right or wrong way to use photography in this way. Images are useful to start conversations. For example, Photo Voice is not a photography project, it's more about "voice" than "photo", it's about finding your own story. Using an image to start a conversation also allows you to talk about subjects that are difficult to talk about.  One of Chris' future projects is going to involve embedding photography into the curriculum to help with learning outcomes. He's also interested in how organisations can use images to communicate better and using art to shine a light on different subjects.  You can find out more about Chris' work here: https://www.ourcreativeconnection.org/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-chinnock/ And this episode's host, Nikki Wilson, can be found on LinkedIn too: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Happy Facilitation Week everyone!  We are releasing this bonus episode to celebrate all things facilitation.  In this episode, which we've borrowed from the 21st Century Work Life podcast, Pilar talks to Simon Wilson about how he incorporates asynchronous communication into his facilitation processes - and the challenges this brings.  You can see the full show notes over at https://www.virtualnotdistant.com/podcasts/asynchronous-collaboration-facilitation To get in touch with the team behind Facilitation Stories, head over to https://facilitationstories.com/ or you can follow the podcast through @Fac_Stories on Twitter. 

For this episode, Pilar is joined by John Monks to talk about how to have a conversation with a client about whether your event or workshop should be in person or online. John is a facilitator, and partner of Curve. He coaches CEOs, and has digested his practice of many years into the book Closer Apart: How to Design and Facilitate Brilliant Workshops Online, which he's co-written with Lizzie Shupak.  https://www.closerapartbook.com/ John's always been passionate about helping people connect with each other in order to collaborate and solve problems, and this drives much of his work.  Through facilitation and training facilitators, he looks for "where the edges are" and new ways of helping people to collaborate. Using technology is part of looking at new ways of working.  John started as a consultant - freelancing and in a large firm, where there were many opportunities to develop his skills in how to run meetings and help people collaborate. In parallel, he trained as an exec coach, helping people to come up with new solutions.  His pivotal moment in his career was attending a course at the THNK School of Creative Leadership – www.thnk.org  The whole syllabus was delivered through workshops and coaching. It's the first time he realised that facilitation could be at the heart of a process and that there were ways in which you could become better at it. Following this, he trained as a team coach - helping individuals develop together as a team can be very powerful.  John founded Curve with Lizzie Shupak in 2017, to train people to facilitate - he found the right partner for the right need in marketing and advertising agencies, another sector John worked in.  Much of the coaching through Curve for the beginning was done online (e.g. via Skype) as they were working with global clients and teams. At the same time, they were observing the disruption and fatigue that having to travel across the world to attend workshops  caused individuals.  To investigate how to do this differently, they created the Remote Workshop in 2018, to help individuals and organisations save carbon and save money. Surely everyone would be ready to jump on it? Well, no. Nobody wanted it.  But by 2020, everybody wanted it. It was great to be able to show people what was possible in the online space.   The evolution of people's comfort with technology has changed a lot since 2019, and even those who said they were "tech dinosaurs" became very adaptable online. This has allowed John to try new things. He's also more aware that there is an expectation of having high production values when you are speaking online. And, he's curious to see what facilitation in true virtual reality will look like… Back to the present, now 2022, when in person workshops have come back. John finds that how much clients want to stay online varies  - due to company culture, individual preferences and the experience they've had online with workshops.  He's found that many people have kept their workshops online. John refers to the Fast Company article "This strategy can impact an entire organization" which highlights that Virtual training sessions seem to be more effective than in person workshops. https://www.fastcompany.com/90740874/this-strategy-can-impact-an-entire-organization-fast  John reckons this is to do with the attention you get when the workshop is online (and we're talking about well-designed courses), people feel more present. There could also be something around the flexibility of attending an online course, as there's no travel involved. (These are John's guesses, based on his experience - but do let us know if you have any other thoughts/facts about why this might be happening, and if this is your experience.) Why do we run workshops? John puts his answer in four buckets: We run workshops to (1) learn and to (2) create/build something new, and the online space gives us the benefit of accessing people from different locations. It's also easier to access digital tools to help with idea creation etc if you are behind a computer, than if you are in a room together. John believes human beings can be just as creative in the online space, if not more, because we can access more diversity.  John reckons that the reason why we hear so much that people are more creative when they are co-located points to the third bucket, which is to (3) build teams (building trust and connection). But John knows this can also be done online - "everything you can do in person, you can do online". The assumption that there are some things you can only do in person comes from limiting beliefs that haven't been challenged, or because these are not things that have been experienced directly. But John is not discounting the joy that comes from being physically together with others. Which brings him to bucket (4) building human connections, which is easier to do in the colocated (physically together) space, which removes much of the friction.   We need to be specific about why we want to choose one medium over another - it's not all about being more "creative", it could be about feeling physically closer to each other, and using all (or most of!) our five senses together.  22.10mins  When looking at team-away days, John's final question of the brief with a client is "What's the one thing you want to achieve through this workshop?" If the answer is "team cohesion", then John suggests they do the work together online first, then get together physically and focus the sessions on trust building, empathy, etc. (He covers this in the book too!) With all the options available to clients now, John finds about 50% of people will prefer to run workshops online - even those where team members are in the same geographical location, as some now have different schedules - practically, it's becoming more difficult to get people together in the same physical space, at the same time. John suggests that training is done online, for co-creation, he suggests 1) online 2) in same physical space 3) hybrid.  John does most facilitation in real-time and uses asynchronous processes when there is benefit to having some work done ahead of the event. Now, why did John write a book?  During lockdown, his company was inundated with requests, as there are many professions where bringing people to create together is at the core of their work. The only way to help everyone who needed help was to write a book. Their main challenge was to make the book feel as much as a workshop as possible.  The team managed to come up with a format to the book which encourages people to go through the material, reflect and put it into action, as well as giving them supporting materials. John realises that his way of writing this book had nothing to do with all the writing methods he was coming across. He worked with a fantastic coach, who helped him and Lizzie to map out the journey of the reader. Then John locked himself away in a hotel room and wrote for a weekend. He did this three times.  There is now an online course available called Facilitating Workshops Online. It's a self-paced course for Facilitators, and anyone who needs to facilitate a workshop every now and then. We have a heavy discount for listeners! Please use the code facilitationstories with this link: https://curvecreative.thinkific.com/courses/facilitating-workshops-online  If you have any insights to share about running your own workshops, do get in touch with John through his website: https://www.curve.cc/ (and if you want to know what the .cc stands for, make sure you have a listen!)  You can find John on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmonkscurve/ And Pilar would love to connect with you on Twitter @PilarOrti You can follow the podcast through @Fac_Stories on Twitter. 

In this episode Nikki talks to Tanya Nash. Tanya is the Founder of Future Clarity.  She is a facilitator, coach, trainer and researcher and works with people in the sustainability field or organisations looking to make sustainability one of their core organising principles.     Tanya  is also one of the hosts of the IAF Wales and Cardiff meetup. Her and Nikki reflect on a discussion that took place at one of these meetups, focusing on the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs).   The 17 SDGs form part of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development - a commitment made by the United Nations in 2015 to Peace and Prosperity for People and Planet.  Tanya highlights in particular the 16th - focusing on peace, justice and strong institutions - and the 17th - recognising that none of the goals can be achieved without working in partnership. They are a common set of goals that all countries which have committed to them can work towards and measure themselves against.   Tanya explains the significance of the SDGs in Wales where Sustainable Development is the central organising principle at the core of the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act for Welsh Public Bodies  It's the only Act in the World that legislates for the SDGs and they inform 7 Wellbeing Goals for Wales.   Nikki wants to know how the SDGs feature in Tanya's work. A few years ago she was seconded to work for the Welsh Government coordinating the Voluntary National Review of Progress Towards the SDGs. Through this she worked cross sector and got to understand more about the work happening in Wales. Now in her own work Tanya focuses on supporting people and organisations to make a difference towards the SDGs.     Common opportunities to contribute include decarbonisation and climate change and efforts to make positive impact on poverty, gender issues, discrimination and inequality.   Nikki and Tanya think back to some of the ideas that came up in the Meetup discussion about ways facilitators could include the SDGs in their work.  Suggestions included using the goals in how we describe ourselves, mentioning them on our websites or considering how they connect with our personal values.  We have an opportunity to raise awareness of the SDGs, promote what they are and what they are trying to achieve.   The Inner Development Goals (IDGs) is a newer framework, developed in recognition that it's not just institutional and structural goals that we need, but that within organisations people need a framework of transformative skills to work towards the SDGs. The IDGs include 5 Dimensions seen to be important in allowing us to work together towards the SDGs. These are: Being, Thinking, Relating, Collaborating, and Acting. The Framework allows individuals and organisations to consider what they need to do to maximise their contribution towards the SDGs.   Tanya is hearing a lot of conversations within facilitation and coaching spaces about how practitioners are integrating the IDGs in their theories of change and also using them to reflect on their own work and the areas they need to grow and develop.  Tanya is also seeing them come up at organisational level in terms of values and ways of working.   Tanya is building the IDGs into programmes she's developing and as a conversation starter with clients around the human side of the SDGs. She's also reflecting on them herself and how they relate to her business planning.   The episode ends with a discussion on how the IAF could link the SDGs more strongly to its work.  Tanya feels they could be used as a framework to consider behaviours as an association; or mapping work being done at an organisational level towards the SDGs and IDGs and showing a public commitment to them, as is happening in other professions.   Actions could include thinking about the IDGs and their role in building facilitators' skills to have an impact on the goals, as well as considering who the IAF is collaborating with, and how this could build a movement to support the SDGs.  Finally,as an international network the IAF could think about the potential positive and negative difference it could make towards the SDGs. If this episode left you wanting to find out more you can look up the Sustainable Development Goals and Inner Development Goals following these links: SDGs IDGs To discover the IAF meetups (and join us!) head over to https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/ Connect with Tanya through LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanya-nash-7576b837/ And today's host Nikki : https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ And let us know what you think over at facilitationstories.com

In today's episode, Pilar talks to Myriam Hadnes, facilitator and host of the Workshops Work podcast and founder of the Never Done Before festival.  Myriam first realised she was a facilitator after she read Priay Parker's "The Art of Gathering". Her perception of facilitation has broadened since then: she now thinks more of having the mindset of a facilitator as she's doing less and less pure facilitation, and more training and nurturing of facilitators. Maybe it's more a question of identity and how you do what you do eg in a conversation, being present, listening, making sure the other person is heard etc. Myriam has created a home for facilitators. The Never Done Before festival grew out of a feeling that there was nothing new in the events that Myriam attended. In 2020, Myriam set up the festival, online, with the only "rule" that those leading sessions had to do something they hadn't done before. She invited previous podcast guests to run sessions.The festival went on for 24 hours and everything that could go wrong, went wrong! However, there's a beauty about creating a space for a group into a session that might fail, because it's never done before. It creates a strong sense of connection.  (And there was even some impromptu singing at some point, sparked by some things going wrong…) There was even an "afterglow", later in the year when some of the facilitators repeated their sessions. A participant suggested an "advent calendar" type event to follow up the festival. Everyone who had run a workshop could run the session again under the label "Done only once before". The ongoing experience of meeting every day brought people even closer together. Two years on, the community is becoming stronger and doesn't need Myriam to curate and do everything for them, but provide the ecosystem and "give permission". They have just run The Testival, a testing festival, 100% co-created by the community.  For the next Never Been Done Before festival, it will be the community that organises the event, which feels strange to Myriam. She's going through similar stages to giving birth and bringing up children, and it's an emotional process. To hold a space safe enough for everyone to take risks and show unpolished work to other facilitators is Myriam's main role now. They're now in the process of thinking about who else can join in, at the same time as protecting the community. Inclusivity (eg global) while being exclusive (eg it's a paid community) is a difficult balance to strike. One of the ways in which they're addressing this is through adjusting the price to purchasing power, so the price varies depending on where you are in the world.  21.30minsThe community also has a mentorship programme. They have adapted the Hero's Journey as a development programme for new facilitators, and it ends with mentees running a session in the festival. The next intake is in September 2022. They have two homes online: one for asynchronous communication, and they also have a community garden on Welo https://www.welo.space/. This space is open all the time, for people to hop in, meet others, and even run their own sessions.  Creating the habit for people to use this space has been interesting. First they called it a co-working space, but very few people would drop in. It finally kicked off when they started to schedule sessions there, and rename it to and design it as a "community garden". 28.00minsMyriam realised that the facilitator community shares everything, except their fees. She also noticed that many struggle to price their services. She hosted a mastermind session for the NDB community and realised how good it felt to have an open conversation about money. Someone suggested carrying out a survey - mainly whether there was a difference between what people charged online vs in person.  The results: at the beginning of the pandemic, many clients expected online events to be cheaper than in person, or even free - now this has changed, and the rates are more or less the same (sometimes online is more expensive). Geographically, the rates in the US are higher than everywhere else.  Now that the world has woken up to the power of facilitation, and understands the value of a well facilitated workshops, the overall rates seem to have gone up. Value is a much better parameter to cost around than hours.  Myriam believes you can actually go deeper when you run sessions in the online world, because breakout rooms are truly private spaces, rather than the group work done in person, where many groups still share the same physical space in practice. As facilitators, we need a mindset shift: clients don't want a "workshop", they want specific outputs. (And will these be achieved with one workshop?)  Myriam hosts a show called "Workshops Work", and she's now past the 170 episodes. https://workshops.work/podcast/ If you would like to guest on Myriam's show, she is now looking for "the edges", what is a different angle on workshops? What have workshop leaders learned from their career before running workshops, that they bring to the work?Myriam holds a chemistry call with potential guests, where she assesses whether she and the person "click", and whether there is enough "flesh" - the moment Myriam gets curious and the questions start coming to her, that's where the chemistry call ends, and the recording date is set. (And if you want to find out more about Myriam as a podcaster, check out this conversation in Adventures in Podcasting: https://www.adventuresinpodcasting.com/ep-21-adventures-with-myriam-hadnes/ )   The next Never Been Done Before festival will run on 18 Nov 2022. https://neverdonebefore.org/

In this episode Nikki talks to Helene about the recent "Re-Facilitation Conference". This was a hybrid conference with around half of the participants meeting in person and half Zooming in.  The conference had three streams - one fully in person, one fully virtual and one designed to be hybrid, joined by people in the room and those joining virtually. They start by talking about the evolving team including a core group of Hilary Topp, Camilla Gordon, Cat Duncan-Rees, Adrian Ashton, Paul Kelly and Paul Brand who helped with the tech,  and some who helped at various points including Caroline Jessop, Nicola Morris, Gary Austin,   Lee Button and Megan Evans.  They then talk about the planning process and the fact that a combination of uncertainty due to COVID and a curiosity about trying it out, led to a decision around the end of 2021 that this would be a hybrid conference.  One of the first things they thought about was the theme "Refacilitation" .  The conference then evolved from there with facilitators invited to populate the outline timetable with sessions. Nikki then asks about what assumptions were used as a basis for the planning.  There were a lot of unknowns but there was an underlying assumption that there would be a mix of in person and online and in reality the split worked out quite even.  The team also assumed that the facilitation community would support and trust them.   Nikki asks Helene about her hopes and fears before it started.  Key hopes were that the tech worked, that people enjoyed it, that the team didn't get lost in organising the event at the expense of the content and that it would be a learning opportunity.  The biggest fear was that the tech wouldn't work but also that there may not be enough people to do all of the things that needed to be done. They then talk about conundrums and how they were addressed.  Alongside numbers and the tech a few extra things came up, which included that Ukrainian facilitators were offered places free of charge but it wasn't possible to offer a translator.  Also creating a balance of content on the timetable, particularly given the three streams.  The main way to resolve these was through a lot of getting together and exchanging ideas.  The people resources and many months of planning time were important.   Helene then talks about her experience of the conference which was quite hectic.  A key challenge was not being able to get into the room until the morning of the event.  Paul Brand took the lead on the tech set up and meanwhile Cat set up the alternative room.  She reflects that the event felt a bit of whirlwind. Nikki asks what Helene learned from the process.  She says that with the time available and creativity, you don't need to have an expensive tech company and a DIY route can work. The number of people needed is a key learning point as there are so many different roles to fill.  Also, Helene acknowledges that sometimes it's worth just going for it and taking a risk.  Finally she reflects on the strength leadership team and the generosity and supportiveness of the facilitation community. Feedback has been largely positive aside from a couple of very specific points such as whether to spotlight speakers on Zoom (the jury's out), and that some music for the people on Zoom while there were organising activities in the room.  The shared WhatsApp group and Miro Board were positively received. Nikki reflects that the dedicated three stream approach made it feel balanced and that there was an even attention paid to each part of the audience.  It was useful that two of the leadership team joined online and were able to provide reminders if the thinking was too much from an in person point of view.  The only downside of the three streams was that participants couldn't go to everything!  Some of the "in person" participants deliberately joined online sessions to have the hybrid experience. Nikki then asks about future plans and if hybrid is the way forward.  Helene reflects there will definitely be another conference but there hasn't been a conversation as to whether it will be a hybrid.  It may depend on the times we're in and the confidence and preferences of the community but with the added consideration of the resource intensity, although there is now a "blueprint". Helene's closing thought is that leaving plenty of time to plan is the key learning. Links All of the detailed information on the IAF England and Wales chapter is at https://facilitationstories.com/ Follow the chapter on Twitter @IAFEnglandWales and connect with Helene and Nikki @HeleneJewell and  @NiksClicks

In today's episode Pilar talks to facilitator Paul Kelly.  He's going to be running two sessions at the IAFEW Re-Facilitation conference on 13th-14th May 2022 in Birmingham and online. His first session will be on "Collaborative Consensus"and the second will be a facilitated discussion around neurodiversity. (A note to readers on the website: we have some gremlins playing around with our text here. Apologies while we sort it out, and oh the irony given the topic of this episode...) Paul first talks about how he got into facilitation and then about his interest in Neurodiversity.  "Neurodivergent" is used to describe a variety of conditions and Paul emphasises that having conversations with people, allows sessions to be more inclusive. Paul shares some of the ways that people might engage differently from the starting point is that we all have different ways to interact with the world.  When facilitating, sometimes simple things can make a difference.  This can include thinking about how to reduce anxiety for example by sending a photograph of yourself or the venue in advance so people know what to expect.   With slides using off-white slides and using straightforward fonts and thinking "less is more".  Asking one question at a time is important and thinking about sensory overload including what you're wearing, both clothing and fragrance. Sometimes it's about talking to someone about the adaptations they use to allow them to work the way they want to work.  Paul always asks in advance if there is anything that can be done in to make a session more accessible and allows more than one way of working. Paul talks about the approach to his session at the conference and the link between neurodiversity and social dynamics.  Paul describes that some people see it as their superpower, for others they may term it as an inhibitor, for example being in distracting environments or experiencing challenges with social cues.  When it comes to employment, employers need to understand the value of having people who think differently in an organisation. Pilar asks Paul how facilitators can address the topic with direct clients.  This can depend on the relationship but Paul suggests not assuming a client will understand neurodivergence.  In which case starting with open questions and saying it's OK not to know and to ask about the right terminology.  He also talks about having conversations with clients but respecting confidentiality.  Paul suggests offering an advance conversation with participants but then also observing the room and any adjustments once working with a group.   Paul closes with a reminder that it's not possible to get everything 100% right for everyone but it's about being willing to listen, adjust and sometimes to risk getting it wrong. Links:   If you'd like to attend the conference on 13th and 14th May you can register here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/re-facilitation-conference-2022-registration-254755770367 Details of the programme are here:  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17tMXIu791vi_NvVQsQg1td6o1jK3wM9kaND700q3C_4/edit#slide=id.ga00cda129b_9_431 You can find out more about Paul Kelly through his website https://pandek.org/  And on Twitter he is @PANDEK_Group Connect with Pilar on Twitter: @PilarOrti

In this episode of Facilitation Stores, host Helene Jewell is joined by guest Lisa Morgans Lisa is a vet, researcher and facilitator. She is Head of Livestock at Innovation for Agriculture – an independent knowledge exchange charity based in England that works to bridge the science-practice gap and support farmers as they transition to a more sustainable, resilient and productive farming system. Lisa has a PhD in participatory action research and before that worked as a veterinary surgeon in a mixed veterinary practice in Cornwall. Lisa talks about the variety in her role, from project management to facilitating knowledge exchange activities and translating policy into information for farmers. Also, part of her role is training vets in facilitation skills as they are such good skills to have. Over this episode Helene and Lisa discuss the methods used in Lisa's workshops, which follow the principles of participatory action research and farmer led innovation. They discuss the similarities between Lisa and Helene's sessions, which although Lisa's can often take place in the farm itself often have the same type of activities and approaches.  Lisa's methods are often quite visual, and she uses different methods to engage farmers, like the use of ping pong balls for ranking. Lisa talks about the change in communication skills training for vets, and the use of different methods to inspire their clients to change. Vets are looking at different ways in which they can use their skills, and so can see the benefit of facilitation to help with that. Helene asks Lisa how the facilitation community can help the veterinary community. Lisa talks about working with both the professional bodies in the sector, as well as individual vet practices to understand their needs, and how facilitation can help. Helene and Lisa talked about the need in the veterinary sector for accreditation and professional bodies, and how that is different with the IAF who are encouraging more people to promote themselves as facilitators, to raise the profile and understanding of the role. Lisa shared the challenge of moving to online with the projects that she was supporting at the start of the pandemic, as often they were focused on bringing whole farm teams together with other teams from across the country, or even other countries. However, Lisa was surprised at how quickly the farming community adapted to online tools. More recently, engagement has been more difficult as some people had become comfortable with online and so have struggled to come back to face-to-face sessions. Helene reflected on the same challenges, and how this has led to the IAF England & Wales conference in May 2022 being all about hybrid facilitation. Lisa wraps up by talking about the opportunity for facilitation in the farming community, especially as farmers are coming together to work at a landscape scale to make changes, they want to learn from each other and there aren't enough independent facilitators working in the industry. So if you're interested, you can work in a fast paced environment with lots of policy changes and an engaged group. Links: You can contact Lisa on Twitter  @LisaMorgansVet and Innovation for Agriculture on their website https://www.i4agri.org/ or via Twitter @innovationforag

In this episode Pilar welcomes two guests. First she talks to Adrian Ashton.  They start talking about Adrian's relationship with facilitation and how over time he's become more involved with the IAF and hosts the North of England meetup.  He talks about some of the highlights of running the group.  They've experimented a lot with location, themes, topics and guests.  Adrian highlights the variety of people that join the meetups but that it's always a safe and relaxed space to reflect together.   Topics have ranged from dating to cows to spreadsheets to props. Adrian sometimes gathers notes on the themes discussed and shares them on social media.    This amplifies and captures the learning for themselves and facilitators of the future. They go on to talk about Adrian's awards.  One with current pride of place is "non employee of the week" from a Facebook community "Being Freelance Friends".   Next Pilar and Adrian talk about the IAF Conference taking place in Birmingham, UK on 13th and 14th May.   The Leadership Team recognised how important the conference is to facilitators and that many have been wanting to reconnect and spend time together physically.  They also realised the facilitator profession has changed significantly in recent years and that hybrid is likely to become the norm so they decided to do the conference as a hybrid.  Most of the sessions will be structured to be delivered in some model of hybrid to give people a chance to decide which methods to add to their "toolbox". They're still putting the programme together and are open to proposals for running sessions. While some will be hybrid, some will be all in person/ all online and some audio only as this might be something facilitators need to work with in future, if people can't get online. Adrian makes a parting offer to facilitators to have a conversation to share stories and ideas as he recognises how valuable that has been for him in the past. Next Pilar talks to Ana Neves about "Social Now", a conference taking place in Lisbon.   Ana is a Management Consultant and Founder of KnowMan and the host and author of KMOL. Social Now is in its 9th edition, taking place on 19th and 20th May 2022. The conference came about after Ana attended a conference in Paris about using social tools inside enterprises.  After talking to another attendee Ana realised there was a need to run an event to help people understand the tools and how they can be a part of the way organisations work.  The format is based on a fictitious global company that experiences the "pains'' of real companies .  During the conference both vendors and consultants "advise" the fictitious company.  Vendors do a live demo following strict rules including no slides and no sales pitches. Participants have flags that they can raise if they feel vendors are going into sales mode - two flags and they have to go off stage.  Pilar observes how this brings real accountability to the audience.   She next asks how the conference has evolved and how peer learning is facilitated. Ana reflects that as a consultant she focuses on making it a really good learning experience for participants.  This starts with sitting at round tables, with lots of natural light.  Ana feels much of the learning happens between speakers and during breaks so they take long coffee and lunch breaks, have good food and go out for dinner together at the end of day one.   They also have a live "peer assist" where Ana poses as one of the employees in the fictitious company and asks peers to share their experiences and ideas for a project her character is starting.  After this there is a table exercise to collect a list of dos and don'ts for the fictitious company which the participants can take back to their own companies. Pilar reflects that the fictitious company means there are no consequences of testing creative ideas and Ana acknowledges that the participants have fed back they have felt liberated as they were able to say things that they couldn't have done in a different format. Links: You can find Adrian by searching online - he's on most social media channels. You can book for the IAFEnglandWales conference here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/re-facilitation-conference-2022-registration-254755770367 You can find Ana on Twitter @ananeves  and Social Now @SocialNowEvent and you can book for Social Now here: https://socialnow.org/agenda/   

In this episode Pilar talks to Penny Pullan, Director of "Making Projects Work" and author of "Virtual Leadership: Practical Strategies for Success with Remote or Hybrid Work and Teams", just out in its second edition, and in 2021,  "Making Workshops Work: Creative Collaboration for Our Time". Penny explains that Making Workshops Work was originally contracted and due to be published in 2016 but then the pandemic hit and she focused on writing the book to help people, not necessarily certified professional facilitators, who needed to collaborate. Penny talks about seeing her role as a catalyst for collaboration, making it easy for groups to do the best work they can do. They move on to talking about when Penny first called herself a facilitator.  Penny explains that it began when she was running a session for a group where a Senior person said in front of everyone, they were going to leave at lunchtime if the session didn't improve. Penny opted to give the group a break and admitted to this senior person that she felt out of her depth.  They gave her some hints and tips that worked and Penny realised that there is such a thing as facilitation. Penny recalls that what changed in that workshop was that whereas she had always been in a position of giving her perspective as an expert, in facilitation the focus is always about the group and that's where the spotlight is.  The experience of that first workshop was helpful as she realised the importance of learning facilitation skills.  They move on to talk about why Penny wrote "Making Workshops Work". Penny explains that while she's written other books, she realised that a book for those that come to her facilitation skills courses would be useful.   Next they talk about how Penny got into virtual and hybrid facilitation.   It began when Penny was working as a Global Programme Manager. The kick off meeting in her first programme was due to be in New York but then 9/11 happened, planes were grounded and the kick off moved to virtual.  Penny had just been training in facilitation meaning that she could focus on how to apply the principles of facilitation virtually. Penny ended up writing guidelines on virtual facilitation in the company and then leaving to set up her own company including helping people work in virtual and hybrid ways. Pilar asks about the principles Penny focuses on most that can be applied in person, virtual and hybrid.  Penny feels many of the principles are the same, what differs is thinking about the environment and technology.  In any session, you need a clear purpose, shared understanding of the goals, a time plan, knowing the roles of the people taking part.  In person but more so in virtual is knowing "how are we going to work together today?" and working out what's right for that session. In hybrid the key challenge is that it's not a level playing field and as a facilitator it's thinking about how to adjust to that. Pilar asks how Penny decided what to include in the book.  Penny says that as she has worked with so many people over the years they helped her to understand the things that other people find tricky and the things they find most useful.  She's recognised the things that develop confidence as well as competence. They talk about real rather than fake confidence. Penny says she didn't put facilitation in the title of her book as the people she works with are people who need to run workshops but don't have training in facilitation.  For them, building competence builds confidence. Pilar pulls out from the book a list of things great groups have.  Penny explains she did some work with Dale Hunter's company Zenergy in New Zealand.  The list is in Dale Hunter's book "Handling Groups in Action" (UK title).  In it they bring out 16 qualities and Penny realised they are the things that great groups have.  It starts with simple things like Purpose, Culture, Safety and Trust but then moves on to things that are present when a group is really working well. Pilar reflects on how the list is very specific and helps to think about how she can help and role model the behaviours.  Penny highlights this is something that Hunter focuses on particularly in her book. Pilar asks Penny to share a favourite activity.  Penny picks out using an affirmation. She asks everyone to take a sticky note for each person and share a great thing about that person.  It can sound cheesy but it can help people feel really encouraged and this helps them to build confidence. They finish by talking about Penny's journey.  She now has the title "Master Facilitator" and is studying a Masters in Theological Studies.  Pilar asks what the title means to Penny and why she's doing the MA.  Master Facilitator came from when Penny put in for her CPF renewal she needed to resubmit it and the Master Facilitator option had opened up and she decided to go for it. The Masters degree is because Penny has been doing some training with her Church and she wanted to really understand some of the subject matter.  She's studying ethics at the moment and her next assignment is on comparing the ethics of COVID responses in the UK and New Zealand.  Penny is also learning Greek of 2000 years ago so she can read the Bible in its original language, and is about to start an anthropology module.  She is sure that some of the thinking particularly around ethics, will feed back into her facilitation.  Penny will be sharing some of her thinking. To connect with Penny: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pennypullan Website: https://makingprojectswork.co.uk/ Her book is "Making Project Work Creative Collaboration for Our Time".

Just saying hello, we'll be back with a proper episode soon. Let us know you're listening!  We're @fac_stories on Twitter Check out facilitationstories.com

In this episode, Pilar talks to Anish Hindocha, who has recently taken the IAF Endorsed Facilitator assessment process. They talk about Anish's experience through the process and then move on to talk about the challenges of being truly inclusive.  (You can check out an earlier conversation they had, in episode 08 of Facilitation Stories. https://facilitationstories.com/fs08-what-happens-at-our-meetups-and-first-steps-in-facilitation ) Anish is a change consultant with a passion for culture transformation. He started using facilitation through his work as  a business analyst, bringing teams together. He progressed to bringing different people together, with different opinions and helping them to solve problems together. At the same time, he created a Meetup for Spanish speakers wanting to practice English and viceversa, which also brought in another level of facilitation. Anish started looking at the IAF's endorsed route when he became freelance. He realised that a lot of the proposals he was putting out to clients had more to do with facilitation than anything else. Around that time he came across the IAF, which he considers the "gold standard" of facilitation. The Endorsed facilitation process (https://www.iaf-world.org/site/pages/become-iaf-endorsed%E2%84%A2-facilitator ) consists of a written submission and a multiple choice exam. The questions are mainly based around the core 6 competencies of the IAF. The written submission is less rigorous than the CPF (check out more about this in our last episode where Helene describes her experience https://facilitationstories.com/fs39-growing-as-a-facilitator-through-the-cpf-certification-process), and you have to describe a recent experience, guided by their questions. Anish shares one of the sessions he talked about, with its objectives, how he designed the session, the tools he used (SessionLabs), an icebreaker, the ground rules he had, consideration of different types of participants, listed his open questions (like, how would you like to be me during the session? How will we keep our attention going during the session) etc. The work then goes to an assessor who creates a feedback report - something Anish wasn't expecting and he really appreciated, turning the assessment process into a learning experience. Finally, Anish feels that the accreditation also brings credibility to the freelance facilitator. In the second part of the conversation, Pilar reflects on a session led during Facilitation Week by Helene and Hilary. Usually, you know the kind of behaviour to to expect in the IAFEW meet-ups https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/ , and in this occasion, a person turned up who had a very different presence to that expected. Pilar noticed that she felt threatened by this unexpected presence, although it helped that it was online, rather than in person. This led to some curiosity to understand what was going on, until she noticed that the person was as engaged as everyone else, in a slightly different way to what she would expect, but in line. How would this have played out in a face to face environment, and how aware is the person of the impact they might have on others? Both Pilar and Anish would love to hear from listeners who've had similar experiences where their values have been challenged.  You can connect with Anish Hindocha through his website https://www.jigsawconsulting.co.uk/  or on LinkedIn. Twitter: Anish: @hindocha_anish Pilar: @PilarOrti Facilitation Stories: @Fac_Stories Thank you for listening. You can find out all about us and how to contact us over at https://facilitationstories.com/  

In this episode, Pilar interviews Helene Jewell CPF about her experience of going through the CPF Certification Process as someone already experienced in facilitation. Helene has been working for 7/8 years as a freelancer, with a background in international development and Speech and Language Therapy where she started doing training and working with groups. Pilar asks Helene what she did to develop and continue learning before becoming certified.  Helene talks about the ICA UK training courses and other training courses she has been on, networking with other facilitators, IAF meet ups and conferences (Helene is the Chair of the IAF England and Wales board), structured learning and finding out from others and watching other facilitators. Helene talks about a growing awareness of what CPF is, that initially cost put her off and that being around others who have done it have nudged her forwards. She was encouraged by Simon Wilson, and Trevor Durnford (who mentored her through the IAF mentoring scheme). She also talks about her growing confidence that she would be able to do it and initially being scared she wouldn't pass. Pilar asks what Helene's commitment to the process was. Helene explains how she didn't have an accreditation as quite a generalist facilitator - while this wasn't something clients had ever asked about, she felt more and more like she needed to "get on with it". Helene explains the online certification process. She went through it in July 2021. The process included pre-work before the assessment day, forms to fill in and detailed reflections on past pieces of work. The process helped Helene to think about things she could've done better, and about tackling things that had gone wrong and how she dealt with it. She also talks about having to focus on the IAF competencies and what they all mean and working through them to understand them better. Pilar asks about the other aspects of the assessment Helene talks about the dedicated assessor acting as a client doing an interview and then the practical assessment and the further interviews on the day. There were participants who were CPFs from all around the world which was one of the benefits of it being online. A few months on, has anything changed? Helene talks about sharing the fact she is a CPF with people, the feeling of responsibility of doing a good job, the recertification in 4 years and monitoring herself against the formal framework. She has recently done some work with Lee Button CPF and they both gave each other feedback with this in mind. To wrap up, Helene talks about co-facilitation and doing more co-facilitation and collaborating with other facilitators in the last 18 months being online, and how this is important for developing facilitation practise.  Pilar suggests that in future Facilitation Stories could do an episode on co-facilitation - what do you think, dear listener/reader? You can find Helene at helene@jewellfacilitation OR jewellfacilitation.com Contact Facilitation stories on Twitter: @Fac_stories or visit our website: Facilitationstories.com You can find Pilar on twitter @PilarOrti

Today's host is Nikki Wilson, talking to guest David Bishop, bilingual trainer and facilitator, based in France. David's adventures in facilitation started about 10 years ago, when he was training managers on presentation and negotiation skills. His own practice took him towards being a meeting host, and a facilitator (though he wasn't aware of that term at the time). He's been with IAF for 3 years, which he joined because he wanted to support the great work they were doing. Celeste Brito (who guested in episode 15 of this show) asked David to become part of the IAF Europe and Middle East. David's been running the Facilitation Insight series, which takes place the first Thursday every month, 1700 UK time, where facilitators share their experience on different aspects of facilitation and the business side of being a facilitator. An opportunity for facilitators to learn and share. He's also organising "The Business of Facilitation" for IAF members, set up after members asked for support on the business side of facilitation through an IAF survey. It's divided into 3 parts: 1) The Business Basics series, including contracts, websites, pricing your services 2) The Book Club, pick a book, a chapter, share what you liked and what you learned.   3) Skills Exchange, where people lend a hand to others on an aspect of facilitation. Find out more here: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/events/webinars A new chapter is born! Meanwhile, David has created the IAF Ireland chapter. On the day of this recording, Celeste contacted David to confirm that the chapter is now official! (Congratulations to all!!!) While there were meet-ups being held under the banner of Ireland, there wasn't an official chapter, so David and other members have created it. Looking into the future, the chapter will be a place for IAF members to share, test, develop their skills (sometimes through leading the sessions), discuss the IAF core competencies… as this is what many members want from the chapter. And if future clients would like to meet facilitators, this will be the ideal place to do this. Remember, there is no pressure to join the IAF, even if you're attending the meet-ups. So, what's next? The IAF Ireland chapter members also want to look into is how can the chapter play an international role within IAF Global.   So check out what they're up to. There's already quite a few meetings planned and you can check out the schedule here: https://www.meetup.com/IAF-Ireland-facilitators-and-friends/  You can get in touch with David on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/davidbishopfacilitation  Some of the IAF Global events he was talking about can be found here: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/events/webinars Find out everything about the IAF Ireland chapter here, as the page gets built: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/ireland  And if you want to get in touch with our host Nikki, she is @NiksClicks on Twitter. 

In this episode, Pilar talks to three of the co-authors of the book The Power of Facilitation, which was released this summer of 2021. Our conversation today is a little bit different, as it's an edited recording of the meetup that took place on 7 July 2021, a panel discussion with the authors, with contributions from the other attendees. The three panelists you'll hear from are Martin Gilbraith, who co-authored The Power of Partnership Between Facilitation and Communication with Michael Ambjorn ,  Héctor Villarreal Lozoya who wrote The Power Of Facilitation For Team Development and Chitra Chandrashekar, who contributed with an illustrated summary to some of the chapters. And if you want to download the book, you can find it over at the book's website https://facpower.org/ Asking questions were Mike, Susannah, David Bishop, Jane Mitchell and Penny Pullan, who has recently published a book herself: Making Workshops Work, Creative Collaboration for Our Time. I hope she'll be able to join us soon here on the podcast to talk about her book - indeed, remember that one of the perks of being an IAFEW member is that you can promote your book if you have one, or a special event. Just make sure it gets to us with plenty of time by emailing [email protected] or using the contact form over at facilitationstories.com Pilar kicks off with a question about how the book came about. Hector talks about the fact that it was Kimberly Bain who was the "force of nature" behind the book and that she asked Hector to participate. The group that started was not the same group that ended up writing the book. Martin recalls being stood next to Kimberley at the Ottawa conference in 2018 talking about the book, and how he invited himself to add something he had been working on with Michael Ambjorn about the power of facilitation for communicators. Chitra talks about being introduced in 2018 to the IAF new Delhi circle and discovered that Kimberly was looking for people to illustrate the book and put in an application to do so. Pilar quotes the introduction to the book which is a complication of 10 chapter authors, 4 visual practitioners across 5 continents and 8 time zones. Hector talks about one of the first meetings being about the structure of the book as there needed to be a connection between the chapters. They started with the usual suspects – eg strategic planning and expanded from there. The group looked at who was an expert in what for example several ToP (Technologies of Participation) practitioners, some authors working on big transformation projects and it played to people's strengths. Martin describes that from the beginning the intention was to have a diversity of authors, chapters and visuals. All continents except Africa are represented, and realised that there is a gap or an opportunity for volume 2 in that there is nothing about digital or online facilitation in the book! Pilar quotes from the book "the team has sought to model a facilitative approach the project throughout" and asks what else comes to mind in how you modelled this approach? Hector mentions how hard it is to facilitate facilitators, and that Kimberly kept everyone together. Martin describes how Kimberly was the driving force and how she took a facilitative approach, also the risks of facilitators all trying to be facilitative! He also talks about it being an experience of online facilitation, and the meetings were check ins and social with collaboration online in Basecamp and describes putting the book together as a "Basecamp memory". Chitra talks about being a witness to a whole part of the process and how she felt she was one of the youngest and least experienced and it was great to learn and observe. Penny Pullan talks about having written books as solo projects as writing books with others and how editing a book with 27 contributors was much more fun. She asks what the process was like? Martin talks about there being 2,3 or 4 phases starting with the submission of an abstract. They agreed that Kimberly would write the introductory and concluding chapter and shared first drafts and gave feedback, then a second draft for feedback followed by several iterations. He talks about not realising how much there was to do and how the process slowed down as people got busy and then picked up again, with final relief when it was finished. Hector says they all had access to each others' work but were each in charge of reviewing specific chapters, and everyone got feedback from the editor and at least 2 colleagues. And that as English was not the first language for many people this feedback was fundamental. They were also able to challenge ideas to make sure they were robust. Mike asks about the design and layout and whether this was done by the team. Chitra then talks about the development of the layout and the joint design and an open and inclusive environment. Martin added what a joy it was to discover the additional skills within the team on things like typesetting. Pilar asks about content: Martin talks about the idea for his chapter coming from a conversation with Michael when they were both chairs of the IAF and IABC and how they had started to discuss the interface between communication and facilitation and opportunities to collaborate and learn from each other. So the power of facilitation, communication and partnership which was something they had already been exploring, became the idea for the chapter. He describes how they went about it by interviewing people and the discovery of people who described themselves as hybrid professionals (communicators and facilitators). Martin talks more about what communication professionals do and how this was discussed at an IABC conference he attended and how each profession can add to each other and how he sees the two skill sets as being intertwined. Pilar asks is anyone wanted to add to what Martin has said. Michael says that whatever profession we are in, for example communicators have a lot of facilitator skills and go and talk to people. And a lot of facilitators who are good communicators. Pilar asks Chitra how she approached the visuals and how she captured this in one page: She describes how at first there was a conversation about the 4 visual practitioners aligning themselves on style and what does the book need in terms of stylisation. They were told that it was going to be black and white, and given the dimensions of the book. Everyone wanted the approach to be not as an illustrator but as a graphic facilitator. They were given the time to read it, interpret it and present it as a visual doodle/sketch. Then they shared a first draft with the authors before creating a second draft. Martin and Michael's chapter is all about exchanging stories and the key idea of personifying what communication is and what facilitation is through representative avatars. She shared my learnings in the first draft and Martin loved the idea of the personas and trusted her first impressions. Trust and cross communication is important. Pilar asks how the process was was working with two authors of a chapter and Chitra giving her own interpretation, compared to working as a visual facilitator Chitra responds by saying with a live event you don't have the possibility to go back and erase something that has already been captured but it can be edited afterwards by digitalising it. But in the room there is a great sense of trust, and the need to make sure they use the right language and be mindful of that. But even in a live session there is a chance to have interaction with the facilitator. For this work they had the luxury of time, to allow words to sink in, unlike a live session which is spontaneous. Pilar's next question for Chirtra is when do you decide to use a graphic and when do you use words? She says this is something they do intuitively and explains a bit about where she might use words compared to visuals. Jane asks Martin about his comparison of a communicator facilitating and a facilitator communicating whether they applied the communicators brain in understanding the impact of the book and what you need people to do as a result of reading it? Martin responds by saying that a lot of words didn't make it into the book, and some were added to the appendices. Michael introduced OASIS (communications planning tool) to clarify purpose of the book and what we they wanted people to be inspired to do. The goal was to promote, inspire and enthuse people about facilitation.   Pilar asks Hector how it was working with someone outing his stuff into a different format (working with Chitra) Hector talks about seeing how your own words are interpreted and how every person makes sense of the message in different ways, and has a mental image of the whole chapter. And that 10 different graphic facilitators may do this in different ways. Each chapter has a different style but all with valid interpretations. Martin says that it was an enjoyable process and recalls conversations looking over the drafts and how it was very collaborative and co-creative, and awars that Chitra was able to provide something that he wouldn't be able to provide on his own so he didn't want to interfere too much. He hasn't been involved in a written process like this but has worked with visual practitioners in live sessions and has always marvelled at their extraordinary skill. Pilar looks at some of the other chapters Hector's is about the power of facilitation for team development and asks for a brief summary The subject was recommended by Kimberley and Hector does a lot of team development type work. It took him a long time to get started and find a central idea, which was that facilitation can become part of team work for a group. Sometimes people are not aware that they can evolve as a group to become a team and facilitators accelerate the process of becoming a team.  He describes this in a bit more detail. Pilar asks if anyone else has any comments about the aspiration of showing a group or a team what they can achieve? David talks about the objective of not needing you anymore and that the power of facilitation is getting people into the attitude of facilitation being where the real power lies. Pilar asks about the power of getting people to do things themselves and how this might look. David talks about facilitation being contagious and that it looks easy and how our responsibility as facilitators is sometimes to say this works and give someone the desire to go and learn. Martin talks about Trevor Durnford and Malin Moren's Facilitating change and Transformation chapter when they talk about building capacity in large organisations and how the power of facilitation is much more powerful when it is more broadly dispersed and building capacity for others to facilitators which is the motivation for the book. Pilar says that many groups might be being facilitated but not aware what the person in front of them doing is facilitation. And that there is something around naming what we are doing as facilitators. Martin responds by saying that the vast majority of facilitation is done by people who don't call themselves facilitators and that often they don't realise that it is facilitation. He doesn't want to suggest that everyone becomes professional facilitators or rely on professional facilitators. But the profession can help people understand what it is they are doing and provides a language and a framework. David says that facilitation is a mysterious thing and full of secrets. He recollects a conversation with a magician who said that magicians are not keeping secrets for ourselves but for spectators. Facilitation is the opposite - it is full of secrets that we have to give away and have a duty to give them away. Hector talks about a challenge in that more people are using facilitation in that one technique or framework is used for everything and that there is a richness to facilitation that you need to adapt.  Many people use conversation structures but is not only the process but also the people.   Pilar has another question for Hector – in his chapter he describes how the facilitator becomes a repository of trust and she asks how do you go about earning that trust? Can we hold the trust? Hector says that the relationships in the groups can be stressed and without much trust. He suggests that we are in a position of power and the group gives you authority, then you have to earn it. You are allowing them to trust one another through you and through the process. By holding with the space – we are making a space for people to trust one another. Pilar asks for any further questions: Suzannah asks about version 2 and what topics they'd really like to cover? Martin – online virtual facilitation, something to do with social inclusion and social change (there is a special interest group in both of these things). Chitra –Something around being upfront when collaborating and the working out loud culture and something around how creative collaboration can work across domains and learning to work to each others' strengths. Also understanding about the relationship between visual and a process facilitator works. Hector – change management and facilitating in change management or in political change. Suzannah follows on from Hector's comment about working in the political space and says how she'd want to go into parliament and move around all the chairs! Chitra sums up by saying - The power is within the group.          

We have two guests joining our host Nikki Wilson in this episode: Steve Yorkstone, talking about IAF Scotland and Ewen Le Borgne, who talks about process literacy with Liberating Structures. Steve Yorkstone, tells us about how he got involved with the IAF and how he's ended up running the IAF Scotland chapter.  Since he's taken the baton, Steve has set up a website for the chapter, where people can sign up to the mailing list and receive updates about what's going on.  https://www.iaf-scotland.org/ Steve and some of the other members of the chapter are coming up with many ideas about how to develop the chapter.Steve works in a university, facilitating as part of his job in process improvement, and so he's keen to hear from people who use facilitation in all sorts of ways. A retreat in the Scottish Highlands (or a castle in Spain!) for people to take the time to focus on what facilitation is and how to learn from each other, is one of Steve's ideas. Meanwhile, he's hoping to bring people together in Edinburgh.  Of course, you don't have to be based in Scotland to get involved with the chapter!  LINKS:  Twitter @IafScotland Or email: [email protected]  https://www.iaf-scotland.org/ https://www.meetup.com/Scotland-facilitators-and-friends/ Starting at 05.39, Nikki introduces someone who got in touch with the podcast team: Ewen Le Borgne (by the way, we love hearing from you [email protected]) While facilitation constitutes a lot of his work, Ewen doesn't consider himself a facilitator. He has a Knowledge Management and Communication background, helping people think about how they can use their information and combine it with others.  As this involves a lot of collaboration, behaviour change and relationships, facilitation plays a part.   Ewen first experienced Liberating Structures as part of a Community of Practice called Knowledge Management for Development, but his first proper experience was a few years later.  Working at a research centre for Agricultural Issues in Developing Countries he and a colleague arranged an Agricultural Process Knowledge Share Fair; They invited one of the pioneers of Liberating Structures to co-design and facilitate the event which allowed him to go in at the deep end with Liberating Structures.  It has since become an increasing part of his work.   Ewen goes on to explain what Liberating Structures are.  The terms and language can be confusing but people usually experience them first as a toolbox of facilitation formats. Some have been developed by the co-creators of Liberating Structures. Others are borrowed from other sources but have been broken down across 5 micro design elements present in all Liberating Structures. More than this, he sees them as a pattern library; for helping groups collaborate and allow them to do something magical together.  They've been developed from complexity theory and they're particularly apt for complex environments.   Nikki asks how Ewen's use of Liberating Structures has evolved and become more of a part of his work.  This has been quite gradual. In the "Share Fair" Ewen interested in how Fisher Qua had been able to use the Liberating Structures in different combinations to create results.. As he began to use them, he moved more into thinking about the language and logic and the lenses within them, such as looking at things in a dynamic way, or recognising that whatever you are doing that's not adding value needs to be removed to make way for things that do add value.     He realised that Liberating Structures is about getting deep, fast and as they're easy to use - they don't need a lot of facilitation experience.  Liberating Structures is an open source movement so one can make a business out of it as long as the creators are credited.   He never used purely Liberating Structures but began planting them into his process design and then he got an opportunity to be a trainer on an Immersion Workshop which took his involvement to another level.     Nikki asks Ewen about his observations in the Immersion Workshop of others experiencing Liberating Structures for the first time.  It confirmed for him that others could see the depth and complexity quickly.   He also observed that despite seeming "harmless" in fact you are confronting the group with deep questions that are sometimes uncomfortable.   He began to see the impact of some of the design choices.  For example the high pace of Liberating Structures is to encourage "quick draft", agile thinking.  If the structure hasn't given enough the first time, then it's repeated rather than extending the time as repetition is seen as another form of change.   He noticed that when workshop participants began to consider their own contexts they could see lots of applications, including in personal life.      Nikki asks how using Liberating Structures has changed the way Ewen views the facilitator's role. He sees them as a way of giving a role to everyone.  While he sees the value of a central facilitator in complex environments, the long game is not to have an external facilitator, but to allow people to find solutions for themselves.     He works a lot around "process literacy", giving people some tools to be able to harness the power of the process and connect their energy to that of others.  He considers Liberating Structures to be "process literacy in a box" allowing everyone to be part of the solution and also be a facilitator.  If a whole group is familiar with Liberating Structures he sees that they can create their own collaboration processes without the need for an external facilitator.       He then describes the opportunity to "string", "nest" and "merge" Liberating Structures  which means that while the repertoire is quite small, the possibilities are endless.    Ewen has been exploring some of the lesser used Liberating Structures and would like to contribute more to the global LS community on Slack. He'd like to use Liberating Structures in France, his home country where he hasn't worked very much.  He sees there's potential as the national culture is not collaborative and he feels that Liberating Structures is a natural repertoire to encourage it, particularly as one of the creators is French.   He's also working with established partners on Immersion Workshops, and they've decided they will begin to offer both a standardised workshop and some more creative immersion experiences. He's also thinking about how to use the "Critical Uncertainties" structure to look at his consultancy business.     Nikki asks for Ewen's suggestions on how listeners can get a taster.  Ewen suggests https://www.liberatingstructures.com as a good starting point, and he knows that there is an established community in the UK that listeners could contact and give them a try.  He suggests reading and trying structures, starting with something like 1-2-4-All or Troika Consulting.  As with a lot of facilitation it's about giving it a try with a playful, curious and open mind.  You can also use the LS community on Slack. http://bit.ly/lscommunityslack (Let them know you heard about it here!) And of course, you can get in touch with Ewen through: https://processchange.wordpress.com/ https://agilefacil.wordpress.com/   You can find Nikki on Twitter: @NiksClicks Get in touch with us: [email protected] Twitter @Fac_Stories www.facilitationstories.com

In this episode Helene talks to Alex Williams Lead Trainer and Facilitator for nature-based learning at Muddy Feet.   All Alex and her team's facilitation is outside, taking groups of all ages out to urban and rural wild spaces encouraging nature connection.    Helene asks why Alex chooses to work outdoors.  This is largely as the focus of the work is linking people to their environment.  It started when Alex did Voluntary Service Overseas (VSO) in the Philippines .  There all planning and group work was outdoors.  She then returned to do environmental projects in Manchester.  This involved taking communities out to look at, and engage with their environment and think about how they could improve it.   Helene recalls training before her own VSO, much of which was about using the natural environment, rather than using things that were inaccessible to people.   Alex still uses all natural resources such as sticks, leaves and pebbles, although this can depend on the environment as sustainability is also important.   They go on to talk about the benefits of facilitating outdoors.  Alex explains the Mental Health benefits -being outside for 20 mins reduces cortisol, which reduces anxiety and enables people to connect in a more relaxing way.  She finds that as it's not a set up environment, they get more from people as they're ready to engage and conversation flows.   Helene then asks about the types of facilitation that Alex does.  Alex explains that much of it is around nature connection - enabling people to connect effectively with their local environment, and to stop and notice what's around them.   They also tackle other issues for example working with children who are disengaged with school to help them to re-engage with education.  They are also about to do a project with Home Start Volunteers to use nature to strengthen adult/ child relationships.  They also deliver training in Forest School and outdoor learning including training teachers to take a facilitator role outdoors when delivering the curriculum.   Alex then explains how they record outputs using a lot of observations, writing notes and having reflective time after each session.  They also use natural art, for example using natural resources to make a representation which they can photograph and annotate after.   She also adapts traditional indoor tools such as the "Jelly Baby tree" using representations of the Jelly Babies that people physically put in a tree to show and explain where they are at the beginning and end of sessions.   She explains that practicalities drive the choice of methods for example using laminated paper and wipedown whiteboards.   They then go on to discuss how to adapt for the weather: This includes preparing participants, dressing appropriately, and having a back up plan for shelter.  They also do dynamic risk assessment and have a weather policy, to consider what conditions are safe to take groups out.   Helene asks about accessibility.  Like indoor facilitation, this is about knowing the needs of the participants and how to address them.  They take time to identify suitable sites including those that are wheelchair accessible and do a recce beforehand with known issues in mind to consider if the site is truly accessible.   In terms of where Alex and her team work, this is a mixture of public and private spaces.  For private sites Alex advises seeking permission from the landowner and if working in parks and planning to use natural resources she suggests contacting the Council or responsible body to let them know you'll be there and any possible environmental impact.   Helene then asks about the impact of the pandemic.  In early lockdown, they were prevented from working with groups but have been busy between lockdowns.  As people have become more aware of outdoor space and things they can do this has led to more interest in Muddy Feet's work.   They have still needed to work within guidelines including reduced numbers and social distancing. Most difficult has been taking extra water out to allow for handwashing.  They have also needed to ensure bubbles aren't mixing with the public and have needed to rethink how they provide food which is an important part of what they do.   Helene goes on to ask if anybody can facilitate outdoors and what are Alex's top tips.  She says that anyone can, but to learn to adapt and build confidence, she suggests going to a workshop or working with people who are experienced to see how it's done.  This might include how to put up a shelter outdoors, make yourself heard, give boundaries, adapt risk assessment processes, and safely use natural resources.  There are skills to learn but don't be afraid - start with small steps and smaller groups.   Helene asks about a recommended activity and Alex describes the "journey stick" which she often uses when people first go out to help them get familiar with the space and as an icebreaker.   Lots of their activities are similarly open-ended to allow participants to take activities to where they want to.   She finishes by reflecting that coming out from the pandemic some people are nervous to go out and that being outdoors can be a supportive way to take part in a session without a lot of pressure, so this makes it more relaxed. Get in touch with Alex:   Twitter:  @feetmuddy   Website:  www.muddyfeettraining.co.uk   And Helene:    Twitter: @helenejewell

In today's episode, Pilar and Helene both join a conversation with Vinay Kumar.  Vinay is Chair of IAF Global, based in Bangalore, India. He is a Certified Professional Facilitator, Coach, Organisational Development Consultant, Founder of C2C and host of podcast "Shiny Happy People". They start by discussing how in 2006 Vinay began calling himself a Facilitator and became interested in the IAF.  They talk about what changed in his practice as a result of starting to call himself a Facilitator.  He explains how he began to learn and design more for the human dynamics of facilitation, creating a safe environment and then using methods that enable equity for everyone to participate.  He also believes he became a better observer. They then explore the impact of hierarchy and what Vinay puts in place to allow everyone to be involved.  Vinay talks about how he adapts the tools to the context, for example being very explicit that senior stakeholders speak last in brainstorming and reinforcing this through actions.  They talk about the role of the expert.  Vinay notes that there are 3 kinds of expert in a facilitation: process, content and context and that when working with clients he explains that he is the process and context expert.  They then move on to explore how, as a "global nomad", Vinay adapts his approach according to cultural nuances.  He notes that from a human dynamic perspective, there are lots of similarities, even if certain adjustments are needed.  In the case of hierarchy this can be stronger in some places than others but it's rarely intentionally negative.  Vinay also shares a story which reminded him that humour doesn't always translate. Helene asks Vinay what he feels Facilitators working globally need to have front of mind.  Vinay advises never to portray oneself as a cultural expert in any culture and going into each environment from a space of learning, directly asking for feedback from the group on any cultural mistakes.  Vinay explains that he's often the only English-speaking person in a room and how he finds himself more at ease asking participants to write post-its in any language they're comfortable with, meaning that he can't understand what they've written and doesn't get pulled into being the content expert and is purely the process expert. Pilar then shares a similar experience working in Spain. The conversation moves to talking about the Facilitator community in India. Vinay says there's an increasing understanding of what pure facilitation is, which he believes is behind the IAF India chapter being the largest in Asia, and growing.  He observes there's a huge learning mindset, increase in CPFs and an increased client understanding of the difference between process and content experts but that the market is still maturing and Facilitators are still educating the market. Next, they talk about how, given the size and spread of the IAF community in India, they can all connect.   There is a single chapter but with City Hubs, smaller communities of 30-40 people, supported with 2 WhatsApp groups.  The active community meets through a blend of national and local events and meetups which continued almost weekly online throughout 2020. Pilar asks Vinay if he's observed other areas of the world where an interest in Facilitation is really growing.  Vinay feels that it's happening everywhere including new chapters and special interest groups.  The pandemic has meant that people have wanted community connections and broken up the concept of country chapters meaning that the "international" in IAF has never been truer. Vinay then talks about his love of being part of the IAF and its Board.  He highlights the giving nature of the community and its international nature meaning that he can connect with people wherever he is working in the world. Helene asks Vinay about the variations he notices across different chapters.  One thing he finds surprising is that in some areas volunteers pick up the mantle and run with it whereas in others, people are less keen to organise things.  He notes that if people don't put in the energy they don't get as much out of it.  He also describes how in parts of India and Malaysia small charges have been introduced to events in order that people recognise the value and the "energy contribution". Pilar next goes on to ask if there's anything Vinay is experimenting with or thinking of trying in his Facilitation.  Vinay explains that pre pandemic he was beginning to experiment more with movement based facilitation within a room,  but since moving online he's now beginning to try not using slides and breakouts but trying drawing, standing up and using different backgrounds.  He also tells the story of how he accidentally discovered "facilitation by absence" which he's now beginning to use virtually. Helene poses the issue of digital poverty and how Facilitators working globally have been working around it. Vinay suggests that Facilitators need to be particularly sensitive to bandwidths and digital "savviness".  He recounts an example where he ideated with another Facilitator in India around using WhatsApp in parallel to Zoom, knowing that the audience was more confident with that platform.  He has also heard anecdotally of Facilitators working in an audio-based format using WhatsApp for sharing. Vinay wraps up by thanking all IAF Members, encouraging non-members to join and giving a call to action to keep promoting the power of Facilitation worldwide. Connect with Vinay, Helene and Pilar on Twitter: @vincekumar @HeleneJewell @PilarOrti

This is a short, bonus episode to let you know about how we've changed the organisation of our Meetups over at Meetup.com. See below for more details.  Join us here: https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/ Next set of meetups: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 Midlands facilitators monthly online coffee meet-up https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/events/jswzjsyccjblb/ Wednesday, June 9, 2021 South West facilitators monthly coffee meetup https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/events/lcgzjsyccjbmb/ Tuesday, June 15, 2021 UK & Ireland facilitators virtual coffee meetup https://www.meetup.com/IAF-facilitators-and-friends/events/sthkjsyccjbtb/ Friday, June 25, 2021 Ireland facilitators networking & learning meetup (from our friend group Ireland Facilitators and Friends) https://www.meetup.com/IAF-Ireland-facilitators-and-friends/events/278401212/ ----- We are glad to be able to share with you a change that will make finding and attending the various Meetups much simpler. What's happening? All Meetups will be merging into the 'London and SE' Meetup group. The 'London and SE' group will be renamed 'IAF England and Wales' to reflect the broader reach.   The transition will start with renaming the group early in May and be complete by the end of May. Why it's happening Since Meetups went virtual only, many new connections have been made meaning that geography has been less important. We have also listened to feedback about how attendees actually find which Meetups they want to attend.   So whether you are visiting somewhere for the day, or want to share interests at a virtual gathering, everything will now be under one roof. How it will affect them This move will put all Meetups in one place meaning that finding a group to attend will be easier than ever, and with fewer notifications and groups to manage. We could all do with a little less admin! Do get in touch with us, our email address is [email protected] or you can find us on twitter @fac_stories  @viclovesto @PilarOrti