Grey Matters with Leah and Angela

Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly.What we explore in this episodeKid watching as a gray spaceStella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves.Shame and the reading warsHow urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for.Context, capitalism, and guru cultureA candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds.Teachers have more power than they thinkLeah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source.A season goodbye from AngelaAngela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public.Referenced in this episodeEpisode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watchingEpisode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observationEpisode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fullyKelly Cartwright's active view of readingSonia Nieto, educator and authorOlivia Wall, podcast mentorGrey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

In this solo episode, Leah Mermelstein builds on insights from Stella Villalba (Episode 9) and Angela Stockman (Episode 10) to explore a question that feels simple but is profoundly complex:What does it actually look like to learn from people who think differently than we do?Leah dives into the “how” of meaningful dialogue, offering practical, human-centered strategies for educators and leaders alike, including:Suspending judgment as a deliberate, actionable protocolEmbracing humility and courage in professional conversationsMoving from parallel talk to mutual influenceCreating classrooms and workplaces where both teachers and students expect to be changed through dialogueFor questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackNext Up:Episode 12 — Leah and Angela return together to continue exploring the gray spaces of learning and dialogue.Research and References:Dr. Katy Anthes’ Forward Framework: strategies for turning polarization into productive disagreementResearch from More in Common on reducing division and fostering understandingAdditional podcast about this topic by the amazing Olivia WahlLeah's Substack article

If you're following us here on Grey Matters, then you're likely a teacher who watches learners closely. You pay attention, and you lean in to listen. You've likely built your whole practice around that quality of attention. But when did you last turn it on yourself?In this episode, Angela reflects on a day of writing and making alongside educators in Dublin, Ohio and what it surfaced about the habitats we come from, the constraints we're living inside of right now, and the identity capital we're building whether we've chosen our circumstances or not. She explores naturalist writing as a tool for self-knowledge, the difference between accepting difficult circumstances and elevating them, and what happened when she brought AI into her graduate classroom this semester in ways that made her a closer reader of her students' work and a more present teacher, too. This one is for those of you who are doing a lot and feeling the weight of it all. The educators who are still curious, still growing, still trying to stay true to something — even inside of conditions you likely wouldn't have chosen.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

What if slowing down wasn't a luxury — but the very thing that lets you go deeper, faster?In this episode, Leah and Angela sit down with Stella Villalba, educator, writer, and PhD student whose work lives at the intersection of language, literacy, culture, and equity. Stella traces a through-line from her earliest years teaching in Asunción, Paraguay, where she first encountered the concept of kid watching, through her deep engagement with the Reggio Emilia philosophy of listening — and into a forthcoming book that asks what conferring might look like if we actually followed the child instead of the teaching agenda we carried in with us.Hear stories about what children reveal when we sit in silence long enough to let them answer, explore the tension between mandated scripted curriculum and genuine teacher agency, and consider what it would mean to treat a child's storytelling — across cultures, languages, and modes — as real evidence of what they know and can do.Whether you're a teacher trying to hold your professional convictions inside a scripted curriculum, a coach wondering how listening and observing became skills we forgot to teach, or an educator searching for community with people who think differently and push your thinking — this episode will challenge you to ask whose composing counts, whose story gets followed, and what becomes possible when we stop treating children like empty buckets waiting to be filled.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackShow Notes and References:Kidwatching: Documenting Children's Literacy Development by Yetta Goodman and Gretchen Owocki

What does it actually mean to dignify learning — for the learner and for the teacher, too? In this episode, Angela and Leah return to questions that stayed with them in the week's following their conversation Melinda in episode 5.They dig into the tensions between the tools we use, the values we share, and the necessary work of dignifying learners and learning by helping them lean into frustration. They reflect on what instruments like DIBELS can and cannot tell us, and explore how curiosity — rather than compliance — might be the antidote to so much that ails us and a key to preventing burnout.This is a conversation about seeing learners fully, sitting with productive complexity, and finding the small, sustainable practices that dignify so much of what can often feel like failure--when it shouldn't.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackShow Notes and References: Dibels: https://dibels.uoregon.edu/Pedagogical Documentation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O5WsJIF3vY0cSeowxSQSsD8nwF8_OOPYPKtesolBTAk/edit?usp=drive_link

What if documentation wasn't about compliance, but instead, an act of dignity? In this episode, Angela reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and follows Leah's thread on dignity into new territory. She considers what we make visible as teachers and learners, what we allow to disappear, and what it would mean to tell more complete stories about learners and teachers.Here, she shares real stories that unfolded in professional learning spaces over the last few weeks, sharing new reflections on pedagogical documentation, multimodal assessment, and the weight of a testing culture that was never designed to hold the complexity of what students actually know and can do. Whether you're an educator buried in data you can't use, trying to build assessment systems that honor who students are, or asking hard questions about whose stories get told — and whose don't — this episode will challenge you to redefine what it means to assess learners and learning.Contact: [email protected] to get in touch with Angela:WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah:FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackShow Notes and References:Hanif AbdurraqibJody Shipka, Toward a Composition Made Whole (University of Pittsburgh Press)RAND Corporation — Teacher Well-Being and Intentions to Leave: Findings from the 2023 State of the American Teacher SurveyCouncil of the Great City Schools — Student Testing in America's Great City Schools: An Inventory and Preliminary Analysis (2015)

What if keeping student dignity front and center could actually guide your daily decisions in teaching and learning? In this episode, Leah reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and dives deep into how dignity, both for students and teachers, shapes classrooms, mentorship, and leadership.Hear real stories from classrooms, explore phonics instruction, student engagement, and teacher support, and discover how dialogue and collaboration can restore dignity in the gray spaces where learning and growth truly happen.Whether you’re leading a classroom, mentoring teachers, or just curious about navigating the tough questions in education, this episode will spark reflection and practical ideas to honor every learner, and yourself, in the process.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] learn more about Leah and Angela’s work https://www.leahmermelstein.com/Ways to get in touch with LeahFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Angelahttps://www.angelastockman.com/[email protected]://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/https://substack.com/@angelastockmanhttps://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockmanAn Article on the difference between speech to print and print to speech approacheshttps://www.aetonline.org/images/MEMBER_CENTER_Section/Journal_Docs/2023/44-2/Fall2023_03_ASpeech-to-PrintLinguisticPhonicsApproach-Fein.pdfRod’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/rodjnaquin/p/why-epistemology-matters-in-education?r=4uwjft&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webLeah’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/leahmermelstein/p/when-research-stands-too-tall-a-story?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

What if the most powerful learning happens not in perfectly planned lessons, but in the spaces between when teachers and students wrestle with paradox, wrestle with uncertainty, and navigate the grey areas of curriculum, instruction, and real classroom life?In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah and Angela are joined by literacy educator Melinda Karshner to explore the paradoxes that live at the heart of teaching and learning.Drawing on Melinda’s experiences as a classroom teacher, literacy coach, and parent of a dyslexic daughter, the conversation unpacks what happens when educators stop seeking a single “right” answer and instead embrace the tensions that shape meaningful instruction.From small group interventions to curricular decisions, mentorship, and leadership, this episode traces how honoring the gray spaces leads to stronger teacher-student relationships, deeper engagement, and more thoughtful instructional choices.Rather than framing debates as “leveled readers”, “decodable texts”  or “authentic texts,” “research or judgement,” or “fidelity or flexibility,” this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: How can we balance evidence, context, and student needs?If you’ve ever felt uncertain about the “best practice,” worried about fidelity versus responsiveness, or inspired by the idea of dignifying both students and teachers, this episode is for you.🎧 Note: This conversation builds on the themes of our earlier episodes but stands on its own as a deep dive into teaching paradoxes and mentorship.For questions and thoughts about the podcast: [email protected] from Melinda Karshner:https://substack.com/@mrsk04https://www.teach-eduventuring.com/Other connected resources: The Mentoree Program that Angela spoke about https://thementoree.com/who-we-are/·  Excellent teacher research: https://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=research_conference_2003#:~:text=E16%20Expert%20teachers%20enhance%20surface,in%20terms%20of%20surface%20learning

Grey Matters podcast explores the complexities of teaching and literacy, emphasizing the importance of intentional and discriminating teaching, navigating paradoxes in education, and embracing multiple truths. This conversation delves into the impact of competing tensions on teacher burnout, the role of honesty in professional development, and the blowups and tensions in literacy education. Our podcast encourages embracing paradoxical thinking, accepting reality rather than suffering as a result of our expectations, and building belonging through connection and collaboration.Listen in as we offer final takeaways on all we've learned from Rod Naquin and how his thinking has changed our practices and enriched our perspectives. If you haven't had the chance to listen to our first episode with Rod and our individual reflections after, catch up with us on Apple or Spotify, and while you're there, be sure to subscribe.You can learn more about Leah on her website, and you'll find Angela right here.

This week Angela reflects on living with coincident opposites in her own context as a professional learning facilitator. This is the concept Rod Naquin introduced in Episode 1 of Grey Matters and the same one that Leah carried into her work and reflected on in episode 2.In this episode, Angela mines a common tension her own work--one that tempts her to soften the pain points participants reveal in her sessions by offering them practical solutions and tangible tools. Quickly. While this approach often yields five star reviews, it also leaves her grappling with issues of authenticity, integrity, and meaningful impact.If this resonates, perhaps you're wondering, too: How might our commitment to carrying the full weight of heavy things ultimately lighten their load? And what does this mean in our AI augmented world?Listen in as Angela offers her take on the power of coincident opposites and how it's informing the way she speaks with administrators and teachers about using AI to improve literacy outcomes.Learn more about Angela on her website, and catch up with Leah here.Or drop us a line at [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you.

In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah reflects on a powerful idea from our first guest, high school ELA teacher Rod Naquin: coincident opposites , the idea that seemingly contradictory ideas can coexist, side by side, in teaching and learning.Drawing on a story Rod shared about Rumi, Leah explores what shifts when we stop flattening complexity into binaries and instead name the tensions that live at the heart of literacy work.From social media debates, to school partnerships, to tutoring sessions and keynote preparation, this episode traces how honoring the grey leads to stronger relationships, clearer planning, and more confident teaching.Rather than choosing sides — phonics or meaning, fast or slow, structure or choice — this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: What problem is each approach trying to solve?If you’ve ever felt exhausted by certainty, uneasy with extremes, or relieved by the words “it depends,” this episode is for you.🎧 Note: This episode builds directly on our conversation with Rod Naquin in Episode 1. We recommend listening to that one first.Stay with us in the grey.To learn more about Leah’s work: ⁠https://www.leahmermelstein.com/⁠To learn more about Angela’s work: ⁠https://www.angelastockman.com/⁠To comment on this episode:⁠[email protected]⁠The Religion of Love Revisited:⁠https://mail.google.com/mail/u/2/?ogbl#search/naquin.rod%40gmail.com/KtbxLzGLkRrkzqxpXHqrmkqgFVTtFfxVZg?projector=1&messagePartId=0.1⁠

For our inaugural episode, we're diving deep into Rod J. Naquin's November 2025 Substack post, The Science of Dialogue: Why teaching requires managing paradox. If you've ever felt like you're constantly juggling contradictory demands in your classroom—structure versus flexibility, covering content versus going deep, challenging students versus supporting them—this conversation is for you.Rod makes a compelling case that these tensions aren't problems to solve, but paradoxes to manage. We'll explore why the search for "best practices" might be missing the point entirely, what it really means to develop teacher judgment, and how leaders can support educators in holding complexity instead of demanding simple solutions.What if the reason teaching feels impossible is that we've been trying to solve problems that can't—and shouldn't—be solved?Show Notes:Keep up with Rod on SubstackRead Parsing the Practice of Teaching by Mary KennedyRod also recommends The Religion of Love Revisited by Chittick and Toward a Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing by Wendy K. Smith and Marianne W. Lewis