In Demand: How to Grow Your SaaS and Stay In Demand

Growth does not always slow down because something obvious breaks. Sometimes it stalls because small issues quietly build up across different functions.  In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down what a growth stall actually is, why it happens, and how to diagnose it. They walk through real examples from DemandMaven clients, including how poor team structure, technical debt, lack of analytics, and founder bottlenecks can silently cap growth.  Overcoming a stall often requires stopping, refocusing the business, and making hard organizational changes. If your company feels stuck despite continued effort, this episode will help you understand where to look and what to change. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Subscribe to The Work by DemandMaven on Substack Joel Gascoigne - Navigating a Multi-Year Decline to New All-Time-Highs In Demand Episode 50: Why Operations Is Your Overlooked Growth Lever Chapters (00:02:30) - What is a growth stall?(00:04:50) - The three most common stall points: 1M, 3 to 5M, and 10M ARR.(00:10:15) - Getting to $10M requires pulling all the growth levers: activation, retention, monetization, and operations.(00:14:30) - Why growth stalls are almost always caused by multiple issues at once and often the solutions might be outside of marketing.(00:16:30) - Why a founder leading product can contribute to a growth stall in the 3 to 5M ARR range.(00:20:40) - How technical debt creates analytics debt, blocks better decision making, and slows growth.(00:27:00) - Why operations and team structure are often hidden contributors to growth stalls.(00:32:15) - Why a 5M ARR company is stuck due to founder bottlenecks.(00:39:00) - Why founders struggle to see the real problem and how bias affects decisions.(00:42:00) - The Buffer turnaround story and the power of pausing everything to refocus.(00:47:00) - Why small teams still need structure, process, operational discipline, and change management.

Product consciousness shapes how your customers experience, interpret, and talk about your product. And if you are not accounting for it, you may be making product decisions based on incomplete or misleading feedback. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down the four levels of product consciousness and why not all customer feedback should be treated equally. Asia explains how different types of users perceive friction, why some blame themselves instead of the product, and how relying on the wrong feedback can create a false sense of confidence. They walk through how to identify each type of customer, how to balance feedback across groups, and why observation often matters more than what customers say. The conversation also covers how to structure better UX research, when to incentivize interviews, and how to build a reliable feedback loop that actually improves product decisions. If you feel like something is off with your product but you’re only hearing “it’s great” from customers, this episode will help you understand why and what to do about it. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links: DemandMaven Subscribe to The Work by DemandMaven on Substack The Four Levels of Product Consciousness Chapters (00:00:30) - Why “everything is easy” can be a dangerous and misleading signal.(00:01:35) - The first level: unaware users who blame themselves instead of the product, and why UX interviews are critical because of this.(00:06:00) - The second level: friction aware. Aware users who feel issues but cannot put it into words and tell you exactly what the problem is.(00:08:10) - The third level: friction vocal users who can clearly diagnose problems.(00:11:15) - The fourth level: most aware users who have strong feelings about what needs to change for the product to work best for them.(00:14:00) - Why over-listening to one group creates biased product decisions and why it's helpful to talk to people in each category.(00:17:30) - How to structure research to get a balanced mix of user perspectives.(00:21:30) - When to validate feedback at scale instead of taking opinions literally.(00:24:50) - Incentives, feedback loops, and building a panel of high-value users.(00:29:00) - Why observation beats opinion when evaluating product experience.

Most SaaS companies do not stall because they run out of acquisition channels. They stall because their organization cannot scale what is already working. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down why so many companies get stuck in the 3 to 5 million ARR range. Asia shares patterns she is seeing across companies, from flat team structures and lack of ownership to analytics debt and poor product decision-making. They unpack why growth can plateau even with experienced teams, how CEOs accidentally become bottlenecks, and why the transition from founder to CEO is critical at this stage.  If your company is stuck despite strong effort and investment, this episode will help you diagnose whether the real problem is not your growth tactics, but how your business is structured to support them. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Chapters (00:00:30) - The 3 to 5 million ARR plateau and why companies tend to get stuck at this stage.(00:02:30) - Flat org structures and why too many direct reports create bottlenecks.(00:04:58) - Analytics debt and how lack of data infrastructure limits growth teams.(00:12:00) - Why lack of internal leadership prevents teams from scaling effectively.(00:16:10) - The founder to CEO transition and shifting from execution to direction.(00:19:30) - Why being a CEO isn't about telling people what to do.(00:22:00) - Why the role of controller is a key role for companies in the 3 to 5 million ARR range.(00:25:25) - Role confusion and how unclear ownership creates friction across teams.(00:36:00) - Product missteps that can keep businesses stuck under 5 million ARR like building the wrong features without validation or market context.

Growth leaders often focus on tactics, channels, and experiments. But at a certain point, the real unlock is not another marketing playbook. It is leadership. In this episode of In Demand, Asia reflects on her first year working as a fractional CMO and the shift she is experiencing in her role. After spending months identifying growth levers and investing in long term bets like SEO and brand, she realized the next phase is more about leadership and building a center of excellence.  Asia and Kim explore the role of storytelling, brand, and the difference between deciding positioning versus operationalizing it.  If you are a founder, marketing leader, or executive figuring out how to move from doing the work to developing the people doing the work, this episode will give you a thoughtful look at what that transition actually feels like. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Radical Candor by Kim Scott A child psychologist’s guide to working with difficult adults | Dr. Becky Kennedy on Lenny’s Podcast Chapters (00:01:00) - Asia reflects on her first year as a fractional CMO and learning the growth levers of the business.(00:09:00) - What it means to build a marketing “center of excellence.”(00:14:00) - Teaching teams how to recognize quality in messaging and content.(00:15:40) - The difference between defining positioning and then operationalizing it across the company.(00:21:00) - Why marketing, sales, and product all need to reinforce the same story.(00:28:00) - Why the brand is becoming more of a focus for Asia in the CMO role.(00:32:10) - Self-awareness, leadership growth, and knowing when to push or step back.(00:39:30) - Lessons from working in toxic environments and separating identity from work.

In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim unpack how they think about and using AI today, and what founders and operators should think about when using AI in their day-to-day work. They explore when AI meaningfully speeds up analysis and deliverables, why human interpretation still matters for strategy, and the common mistake of outsourcing thinking to an LLM too early. If you are experimenting with AI in product, marketing, or operations and trying to figure out where it actually adds value, this episode offers a grounded framework for thinking about it. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Ahrefs video: “I Outsourced Our Digital Marketing to AI”  Lenny Bot Delphi AI Granola Synthetic Users Chapters (00:02:30) - What Kim has been finding exciting with AI today and why understanding its strengths matters.(00:07:15) - Practical use cases: deliverable creation and analyzing large datasets.(00:12:00) - Why AI-assisted workflows outperform fully outsourced thinking and how LLMs can get things wrong.(00:18:30) - Why LLMs struggle with nuance, emotion, and deeper strategic interpretation of research interviews.(00:26:15) - How companies can build an internal brain by aggregating sales calls, interviews, and support data.(00:32:30) - Why AI raises the floor for many skills but still rewards real expertise.(00:40:30) - Wildest AI tools and experiments: LennyBot, synthetic users, and Granola.

If you are past $1 million ARR and still treating marketing as your primary growth lever, you may be burning resources without realizing it. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down why marketing is not always your best growth lever, especially for PLG SaaS companies that have already crossed the early survival stage. Asia introduces the shift from “boiler room founder” to “captain’s deck CEO,” explains the seven growth levers inside a SaaS business, and walks through why over-investing in marketing often leads to diminishing returns. If you have ever felt like pouring more money into marketing should be working, but isn’t moving the needle the way you expect, this episode will help you diagnose what to look at instead. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven In Demand 36: Why is hiring for marketing so hard  Dr. Sherry Walling Chapters (00:00:30) - Why marketing is critical under $1 million ARR but often loses leverage after that threshold.(00:13:00) - The way the role of CEO changes as you go past $1 million ARR, and how strategy and a shift away from marketing might be key.(00:18:40) - Once you go past $1M, you can start looking beyond acquisition at the other growth levers: acquisition, activation, retention, monetization, expansion, operations, and people.(00:24:45) - How to identify which lever is actually on fire and deserves attention.(00:27:00) - Financial and personal indicators that it is time to step out of the boiler room, and the self-awareness challenges that come up in this stage.(00:39:00) - Why over-investing in marketing does not work once channels stabilize.(00:40:15) - The three structural limits of marketing: slow market movement, TAM/SAM/SOM constraints, and diminishing returns.(00:45:00) - Product is still the center of the universe in PLG SaaS, and every lever connects back to it.

In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down what value decline is, how it silently erodes net revenue retention, and why many SaaS companies are unknowingly creating long-term churn.  They explore the forces that drive declining value, including market shifts, competitive moves, and self-imposed product constraints. If your NRR is stuck below 80 percent, or if growth feels harder than it should, this episode will help you diagnose whether value decline is the hidden culprit. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Continuous Discovery Habits by Teresa Torres In Demand episode pricing Chapters (00:00:30) - What value decline is and how it shows up in NRR and long-term retention.(00:04:00) - Market forces change the value your product or service creates.(00:06:30) - Signs that you're in value decline vs. value status quo.(00:09:20) - Mapping jobs to be done to uncover missed opportunities for value expansion.(00:16:10) - The three root causes of preventable value decline inside SaaS companies.(00:26:30) - Why good processes are key for avoiding value decline.(00:32:00) - Why customers will likely only tell you about quality of life improvements and bugs, but not real value generators.(00:38:00) - Sprint discovery versus continuous discovery and how to structure validation.

Activation is the most overlooked growth lever in SaaS, especially for PLG-focused companies. While founders obsess over acquisition, pricing, and retention, they often overlook low-hanging fruit with activation.  In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down what activation actually is, why most teams misunderstand it, and how to improve it using a clear, repeatable process. Asia shares why pop-ups and walkthroughs are not a strategy, why survivor bias is distorting your view of product performance, and how as few as three to five UX interviews can unlock growth. If you have a free trial, self-serve motion, or product-led growth model, this episode walks through a practical framework to improve activation. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven https://www.userinterviews.com/ Respondent.io Amplitude Mixpanel Chapters (00:01:00) - Why activation is often an overlooked growth lever in PLG SaaS.(00:04:05) - What activation actually means and how it connects acquisition and retention.(00:11:00) - Why pop-ups, overlays, and onboarding walkthroughs aren't working as well anymore.(00:14:00) - What good trial-to-paid benchmarks look like and why most bootstrappers leave money on the table.(00:19:45) - The process of improving activation, starting with step one, UX interviews with qualified strangers.(00:28:05) - What to pay attention to when doing UX interviews.(00:30:55) - The three levers to improve UX: cognitive overload, uncertainty, and limited attention.(00:36:50) - What steps to take after making initial improvements.(00:42:00) - How to think about later-stage activation.(00:52:45) - Activation starting from your homepage.

Welcome back to In Demand! Since it's the the first episode of 2026, Asia and Kim reflect on the past year at DemandMaven, what shifted after a difficult 2024, and why 2025 felt more aligned, more balanced, and more intentional. They talk about letting go of pressure to scale, refining research processes, leaning into partnerships, and rethinking goals. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Makeswift Asia's interview on the User Testing podcast Chapters (00:03:00) - DemandMaven turns eight, and Asia dives into a year in review, starting with the wins.(00:06:20) - The shift from chasing revenue highs to building a balanced and aligned business.(00:07:45) - Streamlining DemandMaven's research processes.(00:15:30) - Figuring out a sustainable content engine and centering marketing around the podcast.(00:21:00) - Speaking engagements, Spark Together, and rediscovering the joy of conferences.(00:26:45) - Expanding into pricing, activation, hiring, and more flexible “full stack growth” work.(00:31:00) - Challenges from 2025, starting with consistent new client acquisition.(00:38:00) - Why it can be a struggle to get case studies, even after driving great results.(00:42:00) - Letting go of rigid goal setting and redefining success.(00:45:00) - Looking ahead to 2026: working with design-forward companies, product work, and experimentation.(01:01:00) - Personal plans in travel and language learning for 2026

Copying competitors can feel like the fastest path to growth, but more often than not, it backfires. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down why copying other SaaS companies rarely works and what to do instead. They explore the difference between copying and inspiration, why context determines whether a strategy will succeed, and how to translate what you admire in another business into something that actually works for your own stage, market, and buyer. If you’ve ever looked at a competitor or admired brand and thought “we should do that too,” this episode will help you think more strategically. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Switchyards Atlanta Chapters (00:01:00) - Copying competitors (and why it's not always a good idea).(00:02:30) - Why copying website design, branding elements, or campaign strategy is usually harmless.(00:07:35) - How to take inspiration vs. just copying.(00:10:00) - Where copying almost always fails: copying big strategic bets without context.(00:17:00) - Case study: Why so many SaaS founders tried to copy Intercom and why it didn't work for most people.(00:24:20) - What's the best way to take inspiration, keep track of it, but translate it into your own context.(00:26:00) - Another example: Why copying Notion’s community and ambassador model failed for a founder.(00:29:30) - The marathon analogy and how to adapt inspiration to your own stage of growth.

Research is one of the most valuable tools for unlocking growth in SaaS, but too often, research projects fail to create impact. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim explore why research projects fail from the consultant’s side and the client’s side. They unpack the most common failure modes, like treating research as an end in itself, failing to get buy-in, or conducting great studies that never translate into action.  If you’ve ever wondered how to make your customer research matter, or how to keep it from collecting dust, this episode will help you turn insights into progress.Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Spark Together Conference AnswerThePublic Bob Moesta Chapters (00:02:40) - The difference between delivery failure and impact failure.(00:04:00) - Clients do not hire research for the sake of research, they hire it to achieve outcomes.(00:10:00) - Why project success often depends on who hires you within a company and their level of influence.(00:18:20) - The consultant’s job as educator and guide, not just researcher.(00:22:40) - How to get buy-in for research work and why buy-in must extend beyond your main project contact.(00:26:10) - How to involve clients in interviews without biasing results.(00:32:45) - Why watching recordings isn't enough and how live debriefs after calls are where the magic happens.(00:39:30) - The client perspective and building internal research and insights habits.(00:49:00) - Known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns and why good research reveals both.(00:53:00) - Thinking like a journalist to gather insights without resources.(00:55:00) - When should you do research? Anytime you face a high-impact decision.

Pricing is one of the most powerful yet least understood growth levers in SaaS. Most founders either ignore it for years or treat it like a guessing game. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim share their guide to pricing for busy founders. They cover the three phases of pricing, how to tell if it’s time to revisit your pricing, and how to run data-driven pricing experiments without wasting months or hiring a six-figure consultant. If you’ve ever felt unsure about what to charge, how to test new prices, or when to hire expert help, this episode breaks it all down step by step. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven The Motivation Code Assessment  Irrational Labs Guide to Willingness to Pay Street Pricing by Marcos Rivera Pace Pricing Chapters (00:00:35) - Catching up on hobbies, motivation, and the “Motivation Code” assessment(00:13:50) - The Busy Founder’s Guide to Pricing(00:15:20) - The three phases of pricing maturity(00:18:30) - When and how to move from guessing to testing(00:21:40) - Pricing that drives net revenue retention and expansion(00:25:00) - Real examples: Intercom and Zendesk pricing overhauls(00:28:00) - Why pricing can be a hidden growth bottleneck(00:31:00) - Signs your pricing is broken and how to identify them(00:34:50) - The process for pricing research once you identify that pricing could be a problem(00:37:30) - Step 1: Pricing interviews and qualitative insights(00:39:00) - Step 2: Willingness-to-pay surveys and Van Westendorp questions(00:48:25) - Step 3: Product analytics and finding signal in usage data(00:53:00) - Turning insights into pricing hypotheses and running pricing experiments the right way(00:57:30) - DIY vs. hiring a pricing consultant(01:08:15) - Who should own pricing internally and how often to revisit it(01:17:10) - Closing thoughts: pricing as the easiest lever most founders ignore

Early-stage founders often claim they’ve reached product market fit, but when you look closer, it’s usually built on vibes, not data. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim unpack what real product market fit looks like, how to measure it quantitatively, and why most early-stage SaaS companies are too quick to assume they’ve found it.  If you’ve ever wondered how to know when you’ve actually hit product market fit, or if you might be fooling yourself, this episode gives you the frameworks and numbers to tell the difference. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Previous In Demand Episodes that discuss NRR: episode 46 and episode 37 Superhuman Product Market Fit Survey ProfitWell Chart Mogul Chapters (00:02:20) - What is product market fit, and how was it historically measured?(00:07:00) - The product market fit survey and its limitations.(00:11:30) - Gross customer retention (GCR) as an underrated metric for measuring product market fit.(00:16:00) - Net Revenue Retention (NRR) as a deeper sign of product-market alignment.(00:20:10) - How GCR and NRR tell different parts of the story.(00:26:05) - Secondary indicators: churn rate, close rate, and trial-to-paid conversions.(00:28:05) - Why cohorting/segmenting reveals where PMF actually exists.(00:34:50) - You might have PMF for one segment but not another.(00:36:45) - The cautionary tale of assuming PMF too soon and how DemandMaven sets expectations with new clients.(00:44:30) - The reality check: if you’ve never charged customers, you don’t have PMF.

Most SaaS founders think about growth through the lenses of acquisition, activation, retention, or pricing. But few think about operations and how the way you work internally either unlocks or limits growth. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim dig into why operations is one of the most overlooked growth levers for bootstrapped SaaS companies. They explore how internal systems, structure, and decision-making shape your ability to execute on every other lever, from marketing to retention. If you’ve ever felt like your company’s growth has stalled for reasons you can’t quite name, this episode will help you see how your internal operations might be the missing piece. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven The Bootstrap Founder (Arvid Kahl) EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System) Chapters (00:00:50) - The top four growth levers that slow SaaS companies down and why Asia adds a fifth: operations.(00:06:00) - Operations is about how you deliver value, and how you structure your business to deliver value.(00:07:15) - Every company “does operations,” but intentional founders use it as a strength.(00:10:30) - How weak internal ops make it harder to pull other growth levers like acquisition and activation.(00:15:20) - A case study: how restructuring a marketing team’s meetings helped a company 2× its ARR.(00:23:15) - If you don't think about operations, it will eventually create chaos in your business.(00:27:00) - Why bootstrapped companies tend to be too slow in hiring key strategic leaders and how chasing the dream of only having a couple of employees holds founders back.(00:32:40) - Four areas to audit if ops might be holding you back: team, resources, processes, and decision-making.(00:38:00) - Why decision-making style is part of operations and how executive coaches can help with improving operations.

When it comes to growth channels, things are as straightforward as they seem. Attribution is as complex as ever, and if you move too fast, you risk wasting money on strategies that “don’t work”, not because they can’t, but because you’re too early. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim dig into how to understand which channels work (or don't). They unpack false positives and false negatives, the pitfalls of premature ad testing, and why channels should be evaluated as part of a larger system, not in isolation. If you’ve ever wondered whether a channel failed because of timing or execution, this episode will help you separate signal from noise. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Chapters (00:01:00) - How false positives and false negatives can mislead your marketing strategy.(00:03:30) - Why it's possible to be too early into a marketing channel and how channels stack.(00:07:30) - How to do attribution by channel correctly.(00:10:15) - Customer interviews give a more complex picture of attribution.(00:13:00) - How to uncover your customer journey using interviews and jobs-to-be-done.(00:16:30) - When ads look like they’re working, but conversions tell another story.(00:26:00) - The product’s role in growth: if your PLG SaaS product can’t close, your ads can’t save you.(00:32:50) - How to tell if your company is too early for a channel or program.(00:35:30) - When it can be too early to go to a sales-led strategy.

When you’ve built a successful service or consulting company, the idea that building your own SaaS product can sound very attractive: scalable revenue, recurring customers, and product-led growth. But the reality is often far more complex. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim explore why non-SaaS companies struggle when attempting to spin off software products. They cover what makes SaaS such a different business model, the hidden costs and pitfalls of under-committing, and what it really takes to make a spin-off succeed. If you’ve ever wondered whether your company should build its own SaaS product, or you’re already in the middle of one, this episode will help you avoid the most common mistakes and wasted investment. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Moz SearchPilot Chapters (00:01:00) - Why non-SaaS companies get drawn to the “siren song” of SaaS(00:03:00) - How building internal tools triggers the idea of selling a software product.(00:09:45) - Why SaaS is hard and why spinning off a SaaS product often doesn't work out.(00:14:30) - Why parent-company reputation doesn't transfer to a SaaS spin-off as often as you'd think.(00:18:30) - What are the most common pitfalls to avoid if you're thinking about creating a SaaS spin-off product?(00:23:15) - Most SaaS spin-offs require $200K–$800K of investment before they start making money.(00:28:30) - Understanding go-to-market for a SaaS product and the mistakes that parent companies often make.(00:41:30) - The problems that come up with the parent company isn't fully committed to the new product.(00:44:20) - What made Moz and SearchPilot successful when others failed.(00:47:45) - Final advice: hire experienced contributors and treat the spin-off like a true startup.

When you’re in the early go-to-market stage, every dollar counts, but founders can feel pressure to move fast and start considering hiring a big agency before they're ready. In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim unpack the trade-offs of hiring an agency too early. They explore what signals actually show you’re ready, how to avoid wasting precious cash, and alternative paths like freelancers or contractors. If you’ve ever wondered whether now is the right time to pull the trigger on agency help, this episode is for you.  Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Chapters (00:00:57) - The risks of hiring an agency too early and why you might just be setting cash on fire.(00:04:35) - Key indicators of being ready to bring in an agency: customer volume, software category maturity, and retention.(00:07:25) - Why the best agencies are cautious about early-stage clients.(00:09:30) - Retention as a core indicator: if you’re losing half your customers after 3 months, pause.(00:14:30) - Why most companies don’t truly know product-market fit until at least 12 months.(00:17:05) - Why early-stage founders tend to think they need help from an agency or consulting firm.(00:18:20) - Lessons from Superhuman: taking time to refine before a big splash.(00:20:40) - Why remaining flexible in execution matters and where bringing on contractors or freelancers makes sense.(00:27:30) - The more cost-effective ways to test aquisition strategies.(00:31:10) - DemandMaven’s role in helping founders de-risk early go-to-market strategy.(00:34:54) - Final checklist: what to validate before spending on agency help.

Most SaaS founders pay attention to churn, but beneath the surface of a good or bad churn number, many important details are missed.   In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down the real story behind churn. What the numbers do and don't tell you and how to dig deeper to uncover the patterns driving customer retention (or loss).  From understanding net revenue retention to running effective churn interviews, this is the ultimate primer on diagnosing and solving churn for your SaaS. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven ProfitWell ChurnKey ChartMogul Chapters (00:01:30) - Why a 5% churn rate may not be as healthy as you think.(00:03:55) - How do you measure churn? And getting detailed with qualified vs. unqualified churn and why you need to measure both.(00:06:05) - How to set up onboarding to keep track of qualified vs. unqualified churn.(00:07:30) - Understanding cohort-based churn and net revenue retention (NRR).(00:09:19) - How to interpret NRR and what benchmarks really mean.(00:13:35) - Why getting into segmented NRR is valuable.(00:16:30) - Churn is nuanced. If you are looking at a monthly churn number, you could be missing the bigger picture.(00:17:00) - If you collect cancellation reasons, you may miss the real reasons your customers are churning.(00:21:15) - How to conduct effective churn interviews (with participants who will actually attend) and the churn matrix: qualified/unqualified vs. activated/inactivated.(00:26:45) - What churn interviews can reveal: product confusion, missing features, poor product marketing.(00:27:30) - Product management issues that can come up in churn interviews.(00:31:15) - How to pre-select who to interview to give yourself the best chance of finding meaningful insights.(00:35:00) - Why churned customers are more talkative than trial users.(00:37:05) - What good churn research uncovers: acquisition, pricing, activation, product gaps.

In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim take a deep dive into one of the most overlooked revenue levers in SaaS: activation.  They walk through their activation playbook, breaking down how to define activation for your product and sharing tactical strategies for improving onboarding experiences.  Whether you're PLG or sales-assisted, this episode offers clear steps to uncover where users get stuck and how to fix it. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven UserInterviews.com  Respondent.io  Product-Led Onboarding by Ramli John Samuel Hulick  UserOnboard  Reforge Chapters (00:00:55) - Why most founders overlook activation, and why that’s a huge mistake.(00:02:25) - What activation actually means and how to define it for your SaaS.(00:03:30) - Trial-to-paid is not the only way to think about activation, and may be missing a big part of the story.(00:06:15) - How to discover activation metrics using a new user retention report.(00:12:30) - Why session recordings fall short and what to use instead.(00:14:35) - The power of UX interviews and how to run them properly.(00:23:00) - What to watch for in interviews: pauses, furrowed brows, and “it was easy” lies.(00:25:55) - Looking for friction and where people get stuck.(00:27:30) - How to map your onboarding flow and prioritize product fixes once you've done UX interviews.(00:30:30) - Why valuable activation work can fail in organizations where there isn't a clear decision maker (avoiding the problems of compromise land)(00:33:45) - How does activation change in product led vs. sales led organizations?(00:38:15) - Onboarding for high complexity products.(00:43:45) - Book and other recommendations for mastering activation.(00:51:30) - A final reminder about survivor bias. Remember that just because your customers made it, does not mean that your onboarding activation is perfect.

One of the biggest pain points for first-time founders is a lack of structure within their business. One of the most popular frameworks for quickly creating structure is the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), but does it really live up to the hype? In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim do a deep dive into EOS. They break down its key components, where it works (and where it doesn’t), and why most founders should treat it more like a toolbox than a strict rulebook. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven EOS Worldwide  Traction by Gino Wickman  - the book introducing EOS Chapters (00:00:25) - Rediscovering campaign anxiety.(00:06:00) - EOS overview: what it is and why a client recently reached out asking about it.(00:11:00) - “Right person, right seat” explained.(00:15:45) - Issues tracking.(00:20:00) - Where EOS can fall apart for small teams.(00:29:30) - The parts of EOS that Asia likes and uses.(00:32:00) - Rocks vs. OKRs: what’s the difference and when does it matter?(00:39:15) - SOPs vs. “The Way”: document your processes, whatever you call them.(00:42:15) - When are core values useful and when are they just performative?(00:52:00) - Picking and choosing from EOS: take what works, leave the rest.

Most SaaS companies know customer research matters, but too often, it becomes a one-off project or gets pushed down the list.  In this episode of In Demand, Asia and Kim break down how to make customer research a core part of your growth process. They share how their own approach to research sprints has evolved, what mistakes they made early on, and what they do now to consistently uncover insights that drive real decisions. You’ll also learn how to structure a fast, effective sprint, when to run different types of interviews (from churn to win-loss), and how to turn interviews into strategy and not just documentation. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven Bob Moesta User Interviews Respondent.io  Wynter Chapters (00:01:00) - What Asia and Kim have changed about their original research interviews.(00:04:09) - How offering small incentives improved response rates and interview quality.(00:06:30) - Why letting clients watch live calls builds buy-in and alignment.(00:11:30) - Debriefing after every interview to map the four forces and pull insights from interviews.(00:15:15) - Going beyond the Jobs To Be Done research interview format to do UX interviews, churn interviews, and more.(00:18:55) - When does it make sense to use tools like userinterviews.com for interview candidates instead of going directly to your customers?(00:24:45) - Why gathering qualitative information is so important, especially for bootstrapped founders.(00:25:30) - What you can learn from churn interviews that you're missing with only a cancellation survey.(00:29:30) - Why win–loss and competitive intelligence interviews are underused growth tools.(00:34:10) - Budget-friendly recruiting tools to help you get started.

Asia just hit her 90th day as fractional CMO with a new company, and in this episode of the In Demand Podcast, she shares everything she's taking away from those first three months. This episode is a behind-the-scenes look at how a marketing leader gets up to speed, creates clarity, and shapes outcomes. Asia and Kim cover everything from digging through legacy docs to building team structure and launching new systems.  Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Links:  DemandMaven OfferingTree Chapters (00:01:40) - What Asia focused on first: people, processes, tools, data.(00:07:30) - Identifying mission-critical gaps.(00:10:00) - Once you identify the gaps, you can start to find new opportunities.(00:12:55) - The first two artifacts that Asia created: CMO's Mandate, and a marketing strategy for the rest of the year.(00:17:15) - Month two: hiring new talent, refining workstreams, aligning on OKRs.(00:19:55) - Forecasting vs. budgeting vs. planning.(00:26:45) - Translating CAC and trial goals into action.(00:32:05) - Month three: getting executors executing .(00:35:00) - Relationship-building with product and sales.(00:36:30) - What comes next: aligning the ships, creating momentum, and scaling what works.

Welcome back to In Demand!  In this episode, Asia and Kim take on three topics founders don’t talk about enough: how to listen for insight during customer research, what it really looks like to run a fast-moving (but focused) marketing team, and the difference between great managers and great leaders. Whether you're hiring your first team, navigating leadership, or trying to pull messaging clarity from customer interviews, this one will hit home. Got a question you’d like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here.   Links: DemandMaven Bob Moesta (Jobs to Be Done) Examples of great leaders: Steve McLeod - founder of Feature Upvote  Josh Ho – founder of Referral Rock Rand Fishkin – CEO of SparkToro The Captain Class by Sam Walker Chapters (00:01:00) - The difference in how Asia listens during customer research interviews.(00:06:30) - Your prospects might be comparing you to solutions you aren't aware of.(00:08:27) - Once you start noticing a pattern, look at the behaviors that the pattern is leading to.(00:10:45) - What’s a value theme, and how can you use them to attract better-fitting customers?(00:15:50) - How Asia turns research insights into actual team priorities.(00:20:30) - What it really looks like to operate as a fractional CMO.(00:24:20) - Inside a product marketing launch: managing briefs, ownership, and execution.(00:31:55) - Leadership vs. management: what’s the difference, and what are the traits of good managers vs. the traits of good leaders?(00:42:00) - What makes someone a visionary, and how does that fit into leadership and management?(00:46:00) - Personal examples: Asia’s mom as a bank manager, Kim’s thoughts on captains and coaches.

What happens when the market wants one thing, but you want to build something else? In this episode of the In Demand Podcast, Asia and Kim unpack the emotional tension founders face when their product attracts a different kind of customer than they originally set out to serve.  From internal conflict to organizational confusion, they explore how this misalignment can quietly stall growth and what it takes to move forward with clarity. Got a question you'd like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here.   Links:  DemandMaven Dr. Sherry Walling The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together by Sherry and Rob Walling   Chapters (00:03:00) - When your product grows in a direction you didn’t intend.(00:05:40) - The founder-product conflict: There is a new segment of the market that is growing and more important, but you’re not as excited to serve them.(00:11:30) - When you are serving multiple segments, you eventually face a choice on which segment you will focus your product.(00:14:40) - How this tension has shown up in the history of DemandMaven and how they've adapted to it.(00:15:11) - Start by mapping your options and the trade-offs of each. But if you want to move forward, you've got to make peace with the trade-offs.(00:19:00) - You can commit to one path and still pivot later. Decisions are not permanent.(00:21:40) - Not choosing a clear direction is what kills momentum. Committing to one path, even if it's not the best path, will almost certainly be better than thrashing between options.(00:24:25) - What keeps founders stuck: emotional attachment, ego, identity, fear, and discomfort.(00:28:05) - The conflict has to be resolved. Staying stuck drains time, energy, and growth.(00:31:00) - Resource: Dr. Sherry Walling’s work on founder emotional health.

When does it make sense to bring on a Fractional CMO, and what should you expect from one? In this episode, Asia and Kim dig into the ins and outs of Fractional CMOs: what they do, when to hire one, how they’re different from heads of marketing or full-time CMOs, and the biggest risks and rewards founders should know. Asia also reflects on her current work as a Fractional CMO and shares how she approaches structure, team-building, and strategy without getting stuck in the weeds. Got a question you'd like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here. Chapters (00:02:05) - Fractional vs. full-time: what’s the difference and when does each make sense?(00:03:30) - A CMO’s core responsibilities: budget, strategy, and team.(00:05:30) - You don’t need a team in place already to hire a CMO, but you do need budget and runway.(00:07:00) - Heads of marketing often get hired like CMOs, but they’re not the same.(00:11:45) - A head of marketing thinks in channels, whereas a CMO thinks in markets, products, and investment strategy.(00:13:45) - Product marketing, demand gen, hiring, retention, and outsourcing are important parts of a CMO's responsibilities.(00:16:15) - Attribution and analytics, even if it's messy, is something that a CMO should take ownership of.(00:21:30) - You might need a CMO if you’re making investments that aren’t paying off and no one’s connecting the dots.(00:23:15) - Trial periods are worthwhile when you're hiring for a CMO role since hiring the wrong person in a c-level role is costly.(00:26:50) - There are different types of CMOs, some are more visionary and others are more operational.(00:33:15) - The biggest thing to monitor with a fractional role is if marketing falls behind because there isn't a full-time leader.(00:36:00) - Less time can lead to more focus. A great fractional CMO will have a high level of clarity about priorities.

Growth isn’t just marketing. And if you’re stuck and growth isn’t happening, you’ll need to look beyond marketing and acquisition.  In this episode of the In Demand Podcast, Asia and Kim break down what it means to troubleshoot growth. They explain how growth work goes beyond campaigns and into retention, expansion, pricing, onboarding, and more. Plus, they dive into how product marketing overlaps and differs from growth and why founders often under-invest in the real levers that move growth. Got a question you'd like Asia to unpack on the podcast? Record a voicemail here.  Chapters (00:01:44) - Growth marketing vs. head of growth: very different roles.(00:04:47) - A head of growth looks across the whole business, not just marketing.(00:05:40) - An early mistake founders often make is to focus only on marketing and acquisition when they are trying to solve growth problems.(00:08:07) - The moment Asia realized marketing wasn’t enough and how that led her into growth.(00:12:40) - Troubleshooting growth means identifying why growth is slow or stuck.(00:15:00) - Step by step on troubleshooting growth and benchmarks that matter.(00:22:45) - Troubleshooting = identifying root causes and giving you a clear plan to fix them.(00:30:30) - Product marketing overlaps with growth, but it's not the same job.(00:35:56) - Recap of what differences exist between a product marketer, a VP of growth, and a marketer.