Lawyers Who Learn

What happens when a test you take over a bottle of wine on a Thursday night ends up rewriting your entire career? For Kyle Robisch, founding partner of Latitude Legal's Tampa office, discovering that his number one strength was "Woo" — the drive to win others over and forge genuine connections — hit like a revelation. He was a Big Law litigator spending his days in conflict and argument, and here was hard evidence pointing him somewhere entirely different. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Kyle to unpack what the CliftonStrengths assessment revealed about his true superpower — and how that self-knowledge eventually powered a leap from senior associate to legal talent entrepreneur. Kyle explains why seeing three people-focused traits at the top of his results felt jarring for someone whose job was to argue and fight. That jarring feeling became an inflection point. The heaviness he felt in litigation wasn't weakness — it was misalignment. David shares his own results and together they explore what it means to stop performing someone else's version of success and start living inside your zone of genius. He also reflects on Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and its core lesson: give freely, build genuinely, and good things follow. It's a philosophy he now lives daily at Latitude, where his job is the connection — helping high-caliber lawyers find flexible, fulfilling ways to practice. The takeaway is simple but hard-won: find the work that doesn't just use your skills, but gives you energy.

Sam Davidoff spent twenty years mastering the art of litigation at one of Washington D.C.'s most elite firms — but the kid who taught himself to program at 15 never fully let go of his first love. When he finally told his wife, she'd seen it coming long before he had, and that was all he needed. That conversation became the catalyst for Align, a digital binder platform built to move trial lawyers off paper and onto their iPads. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, traces Sam's unlikely path from St. John's College, where he spent four years wrestling with Plato and Aristotle around a seminar table, to Yale Law, to a partnership at Williams & Connolly, to first-time founder. That unconventional philosophical education gave him something most lawyers never develop: the habit of stopping to examine how he works, not just what he's working on. Sam opens up about the brutal realities of legal tech sales, how convincing a partner isn't enough, how institutional inertia can bury even an obvious product, and why building a startup feels exactly like a home renovation that costs twice what you budgeted. He also shares the practice that keeps his small team sharp: every other Friday is a mandatory no-product professional development day, where learning anything — watercolor painting included — is fair game. For lawyers and entrepreneurs alike, Sam's story is a reminder that "someday" has an expiration date, and that the examined life doesn't just make for good philosophy — it makes for better decisions.

Barry Seidel was at the peak of his success—running a thriving personal injury practice while building a lucrative per diem business, which was featured on the cover of the New York Law Journal. Then, at 43 years old, he had a heart attack—one his doctors called a "no-risk-factor" event, apparently triggered by anger and stress. What followed was a complete reimagining of how he approached law and life. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Barry's transformation from an angry, stressed attorney to someone who has embraced the ongoing process of learning to manage the emotional aspects of law practice and life. After a year away from practice, Barry pivoted from personal injury law to probate and estate administration, continuing to practice for another 25 years while developing new skills for handling stress. Barry's journey includes starting his own practice straight out of law school. His recent book, "Evolutions of a Law Practice, How I Opened My Own Practice Right Out of Law School….and lived to tell about it" captures his non-traditional path through multiple career evolutions. In this episode, Barry discusses how staying curious and adaptable can transform adversity into opportunity. Now at 69 and transforming his practice to semi-retirement mode, he's focused on writing, speaking, and helping others navigate legal practice challenges—proof that even the most difficult moments can become the foundation for a life without regrets.

Most lawyers chase growth through more clients and more cases. Michelle Itkowitz built her practice by doing the opposite. After her first five years as a lawyer, Michelle realized that saying yes to everything was burnout waiting to happen. She narrowed her focus to landlord-tenant law in New York City, committed to mastering the niche, and built a boutique practice rooted in intentional selectivity. Today, she fields hundreds of inquiries each year and accepts only about 20 cases, guided by three non-negotiables: she must add real value, the client must be able to pay her rate, and the relationship must work. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Michelle transformed deep subject-matter expertise into authority and impact. For decades, she has read the appellate decisions in her field, taught extensively, and created content that sharpens her thinking. Her podcast, Learn to Live Better: A Housing Law Podcast, serves New York’s vanishing middle class, people who fall between legal aid and high-end representation. In each episode, she distills complex cases into practical takeaways, then makes something clear: the show is not a funnel, and listeners shouldn’t call her for representation. Drawing on Essentialism and legal project management principles, Michelle front-loads every engagement with a detailed written analysis outlining options, costs, timelines, and likelihood of success. The result is clarity, aligned expectations, and virtually no unhappy clients. Her story is a reminder that real growth in law isn’t about expansion, it’s about refinement.

Patrick McCormick didn’t start his career as a renowned international tax expert; he built that reputation by systematically teaching every complex concept he encountered. From nearly dropping out of law school after a grueling first year to authoring a treatise for Thomson Reuters, Patrick discovered that the fastest way to master a niche is to explain it to others. Today, he manages a high-level book of business at a multinational firm, proving that visibility is the byproduct of continuous, public learning. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Patrick to explore the "market what you learn" strategy that transformed his practice. They discuss Patrick’s journey from a suburban New Jersey boutique to Ramon Law, a firm spanning 12 countries, and how he uses speaking engagements at Lawline and other providers to stay ahead of seismic shifts in tax law. Patrick reveals the "small but significant" changes in the latest tax legislation and why he still reads hundred-page bills from cover to cover to maintain his edge. The conversation highlights why specialization, particularly in underserved areas like international and state-and-local tax, is the key to long-term security in an evolving legal market. Patrick offers a roadmap for attorneys looking to transition from "backroom work" to industry leadership through publishing and mentorship. As the legal landscape becomes more complex, Patrick’s story serves as a masterclass in turning specialized knowledge into a scalable professional brand.

Pralika Jain has built her career on bold pivots—from Bollywood media and entertainment in India to health tech, Twitter during Elon Musk’s acquisition, and now leading legal at an AI data company in New York. But her real transformation isn’t about industries. It’s about mindset. After years of watching lawyers chase perfection, Pralika embraced a different philosophy: stop taking yourself so seriously, stay curious, and build as you go. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Pralika to explore her journey from Georgetown LLM student learning to code to becoming the first Head of Legal at Hex, an AI analytics data platform. She shares what it was like to be the sole lawyer at a 160-person  SaaS startup, how she navigated the chaos of Twitter’s acquisition, and why sitting quietly in product meetings as a “fly on the wall” made her a better business partner. Pralika explains how she uses AI tools like Claude and Slack integrations to build internal playbooks, triage legal requests, and operate as a one-person legal team without burning out. Throughout the conversation, she challenges the legal profession’s obsession with perfection. Working hard isn’t enough. Growth requires agility, experimentation, and the courage to show up authentically—even if you don’t fit the traditional mold. For lawyers navigating AI disruption, in-house pressure, or career pivots, Pralika offers a powerful reminder: you don’t need to know everything to lead. You just need to stay curious, stay flexible, and keep building

After 18 years in corporate finance law, Heather Moulder had built exactly what success was supposed to look like — partner at Greenberg Traurig, thriving book of business, career on track. Then a breast cancer diagnosis at 38 forced her to stop and ask a question most high-achieving lawyers never let themselves ask: Is this actually the life I want? In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Heather to unpack a journey that started long before the diagnosis — the burnout four years into her career, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing, and the feeling of succeeding at something that was slowly draining her. Her return to the firm after treatment looked like a comeback. It was actually the beginning of something else. She spent years quietly reevaluating her values, training as a coach, and building a practice on the side before finally making the leap. She initially avoided working with lawyers — then found herself almost exclusively coaching them. Today, she works with attorneys on both mindset and business development, grounded in the belief that you simply cannot separate the two. Heather's story is a powerful reminder that burnout isn't weakness — it's often the clearest signal pointing toward the work you were always meant to do.

Jennifer Gillman built her recruiting career by doing something most recruiters avoid: telling lawyers not to leave. When partners complained about being underpaid, she dug into the numbers—sometimes discovering they could dramatically increase compensation elsewhere, and other times realizing they were already better off staying put. Same frustration. Completely different reality. That instinct to prioritize long-term happiness over short-term commission checks eventually reshaped her entire business. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Jennifer, founder of Gillman Strategic Group and author of The Happy Rainmaker, to explore her evolution from management-side employment attorney to trusted advisor for high-performing rainmakers. After 12 years in practice—and barely seeing her young child awake during the week—Jennifer made a bold pivot into recruiting. What started as a search for flexibility became a mission: helping lawyers avoid moves that create more stress, more friction, and less control. Now working with partners who can choose almost any firm, Jennifer focuses on one question: will this move actually improve your life? Through her Six Pillars framework, she challenges the assumption that more revenue equals more fulfillment. Instead, she argues that the happiest rainmakers build business intentionally, set boundaries confidently, and design careers that are both profitable and sustainable.

Lucie Allen's journey through legal education started with an accidental entry into IP protection during the dot-com boom and evolved into a leading growth strategy at one of the industry's most recognizable names. As Chief Growth Officer at BARBRI, she's helping transform a company known primarily for bar prep into something much bigger, a lifelong legal learning platform where bar prep no longer represents the majority of revenue. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how BARBRI is building what Lucie calls a "lifelong legal learning continuum" through strategic acquisitions like West Academic, Quimbee, Skillburst, and Stratford. The conversation reveals how the company is reimagining legal education from LSAT preparation through late-career professional development, operating in both mandatory CLE markets in the US and the UK's professional development landscape where continuing education isn't required. Lucie shares insights on navigating the AI revolution in education, including BARBRI's decision to hire its first Head of AI, a role dedicated largely to external innovation and improving how clients experience their products. She discusses the challenge of operating in "Horizon Two"—that experimental space between maintaining daily operations and pursuing an uncertain but necessary future. With refreshing honesty, she talks about the unique pressures women face in professional growth, from proving yourself in male-dominated sales environments to managing career ambition alongside motherhood, and even navigating menopause. The episode touches on everything from early sales training with video feedback to cold plunging in a garden tub, from Microsoft AI partnerships to Simon Sinek's infinite game philosophy. Lucie offers a candid look at the opportunities, challenges, and strategic thinking required to stay relevant when technology is reshaping everything.

Sarah Dray took a sick day from her Tel Aviv law firm to complete a freelance translation project, not because she was ill, but because that single job would pay more than her entire week's salary as a junior attorney. That pivotal moment crystallized a truth she'd been avoiding: the practical career path she'd followed since age 18 was leading somewhere she no longer wanted to go. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Sarah's journey from studying law in Hebrew, to building a thriving translation business that now handles high-stakes legal and financial documents for publicly traded companies. After immigrating to Israel for what was supposed to be a gap year, Sarah navigated law school while ultra-Orthodox and married at 19, juggling cultural expectations with an independent streak inherited from her Moroccan immigrant parents. Sarah's entrepreneurial evolution didn't stop with translations. During COVID, she co-founded a seven-figure e-commerce business selling VR headsets on Amazon, a venture born from scrolling TikTok while trapped at home. Her translation business has weathered AI disruption by pivoting from routine litigation work to complex financial documents that still require human expertise and formatting precision. Now, as she considers her next chapter, Sarah's contemplating a new mission: helping women entrepreneurs make the leap from zero to one, drawing from her own unconventional path of building multiple businesses while navigating motherhood during wartime in Israel.

Brendan Horgan learned a counterintuitive lesson as a young Navy judge advocate: the most effective arguments aren't delivered with fire and brimstone. Standing before decorated military officers as a third-year JAG, he discovered that matter-of-fact credibility beats theatrical passion every time, a principle that now guides his employment law practice at Hofheimer in Richmond, Virginia. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Brendan's evolution from University of Connecticut Law graduate who "just jumped in" to active duty JAG service, through five years prosecuting and defending courts martial, to building a thriving private practice while serving as a Navy Reserve judge advocate. After graduating in 2012 into a challenging legal market, Brendan took a recruiter's pitch and found himself in Newport, Rhode Island, preparing for a career he'd never considered—one that would give him courtroom experience most attorneys never achieve. Brendan's litigation philosophy rests on two principles: assume mistakes before malice, and find the hidden leverage point in every case that goes beyond the legal arguments. By giving people the benefit of the doubt and avoiding aggressive posturing from the start, he achieves faster settlements in employment disputes. His JAG experience,prosecuting service members with clean records while rotating between prosecutor, defense counsel, and advisor, taught him a crucial lesson: clients' problems are his to solve, not to carry on his shoulders. Beyond the courtroom, Brendan candidly discusses the "starfish method" of balancing work, family, and public service while coaching his kids' sports teams and maintaining his reserve commitment. His message: even with three children and a demanding practice, there's always room to serve—you just have to intentionally choose which areas get your focus at any given time.

Dan Warburton helps law firm owners increase profits by doing something counterintuitive: billing less while their teams bill more. His path here wasn't linear. After struggling to fit in throughout his youth, Dan spent years bouncing between ventures—earning a design degree, DJing across Europe, then literally knocking on 4,000 doors as "Super Dan the Handyman." When he scaled too fast with Team Super, a nine-person crew, the business collapsed under £100,000 in tax debt after his team couldn't deliver the work they'd promised In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how that failure became Dan's breakthrough. He pivoted to a 24-hour drainage business he could run from ski lifts across Europe, which led curious entrepreneurs to ask how he'd achieved that freedom. The answer lay in eight years of leadership training at Landmark Education. There, Dan traced his struggles back to a childhood moment when he was reprimanded for biting his brother's ear. He'd invented a story that he wasn't good enough, and recognizing this as invention rather than truth changed everything. Dan's framework centers on something law schools never teach: listening. Through weekly one-on-ones, he guides attorneys to build teams where people feel genuinely valued rather than driven. His clients learn to replace "how will I fit this in?" with "who can do this?"—a shift that helped one firm achieve a 392% revenue increase. Now Dan's pursuing the acquisition of a 65-person London law firm to implement everything he's taught, with plans to build a portfolio of practices. His journey proves that escaping the expert trap starts with confronting the stories you've been telling yourself since childhood.

Joe Green has spent the last several years building one of the most ambitious AI and innovation programs in BigLaw — not by chasing the hottest tools, but by asking harder questions about how law firms actually create value and what has to change for that to evolve. He knows the real transformation won't come from product launches or conference buzz. It'll happen when firms feel actual business pressure: fewer billable hours because work takes less time, or clients demanding new ways to buy legal services. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores both Joe's innovation work at Gunderson Dettmer and the winding path that got him there. After seven years as a transactional associate — first at Simpson Thacher and then at Gunderson Dettmer — Joe was a skilled deal lawyer who struggled to feel genuinely energized by the work. The demands of managing complex, fast-moving transactions occupied every corner of his mental bandwidth, leaving little room to envision what else he might want to do. Getting to a place where he could think clearly about what came next took years of deliberate effort. Writing changed everything. Joe discovered that co-authoring law review articles — something most practicing BigLaw lawyers never do — opened unexpected doors, eventually leading him to Practical Law at Thomson Reuters and then back to Gunderson in a completely reimagined role. Now he teaches startup/VC law at Penn Law, reads neuroscience books on his train commute, and thinks deeply about how AI will reshape legal training. His advice works for both innovation and careers: experiment with what interests you, stay ready to pivot, and trust that meaningful change rarely follows a straight line.

Lauren Hakala knew her path would be different the moment she heard a colleague gush about an incoming deal. They were having wine after work, and while the woman talked excitedly about her next deal, Lauren realized something crucial: she'd never felt that way about her own work, so it was time to find a different path. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Lauren transformed six years of corporate law experience at Cleary Gottlieb into a career helping law firm leaders manage their talent programs. As Senior Director of Global Learning at Reed Smith, she leads a 15-person team supporting lawyers across 30+ offices worldwide, designing programs on legal skills, business development, financial acumen, and leadership skills. Her journey included a pivotal stop at Practical Law during its US launch, where she worked alongside future legal innovators before Paul, Weiss took a chance on her, hiring her to make a pivot into professional development for its global transactional groups. Lauren introduces her "near pizza" concept: the difference between waiting in line with friends for the perfect slice versus pressing a button for delivery. Both get you pizza, but only one creates a meaningful experience. As GenAI makes legal work more efficient, she challenges the profession to preserve the friction that gives learning meaning—the stories, emotions, and human connections that build trust and that no algorithm can replace. Her approach uses technology to handle the basics so people can focus on what truly matters. Beyond her current role, Lauren spent over two years managing week-long Harvard Law Executive Training programs at her previous firm, learning strategy and financial literacy alongside lawyers. She's also accidentally met every New York City mayor since Giuliani, including her Park Slope neighbor Bill de Blasio.

Jason Levin wrote an entire book challenging a simple truth: we say "keep in touch" but really mean goodbye, so what if lawyers actually executed on those three words? For 15 years, he's trained new partners and practice groups on business development rooted in social science: the strength of weak ties, six degrees of separation, and the power of dormant connections. His message is simple but transformative—your casual relationships matter more than you think, and most attorneys ignore them completely. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Jason built his career teaching the one skill law schools never cover. His path started as a high school file clerk at a New Jersey law firm, because he was the babysitter for one of the firm’s partners.  She once told him, “If you can get my kids to bed on time, you can certainly handle our practice group’s files.” It was that early experience which solidified his interest in building relationships. Jason went on to an MBA at Georgetown University, spent five years in France following a Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship, led sales teams at Home - Vault selling to law firms, and eventually launched his own practice of training business development to attorneys, accountants, and executive search firms. The conversation reveals an unexpected vulnerability when Jason shares his ADHD diagnosis from three years ago. The kid who couldn't understand social cues in elementary school, who would blurt out comments five minutes too late, systematically taught himself active listening and relationship skills through social science research. By senior year of high school, he was voted most talkative. His philosophy of "let them say no" rejects the double rejection we create in our minds, showing how intentionality transforms networking from obligation into authentic connection.

For years working in Big Law business development at firms like Pillsbury, Sherman & Sterling (now A&O Shearman), and McDermott Will & Emery, Megan Senese thought attorneys had it all figured out. Then she left to co-found Stage, and lawyers started opening up about their real challenges: the same struggles with impossible demands and professional uncertainty she'd experienced herself. That realization didn't just change her perspective; it became the foundation for an entirely new approach to helping legal professionals grow their practices. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Megan built a business around what Big Law couldn't provide: dedicated, personalized support for individual attorneys. Stage offers fractional marketing and business development tailored to what actually works for each person, whether that's leaning into conferences for an energy regulatory lawyer or creating content strategies for someone who thrives behind the scenes rather than at networking events. Megan shares actionable frameworks that work. She applies Dr. Becky Kennedy's parenting concept of "the most generous interpretation" to transform how attorneys handle unanswered emails and perceived rejection. She draws on Dan Pink's insight that moving people beats selling them every time. Her cold outreach to the CMO of LinkedIn got an immediate yes. Her pitch to David landed this conversation. The approach is straightforward: pause long enough to understand what someone actually needs, then show them why connecting serves their interests. The conversation reveals Megan's own transformation from someone who would've never imagined entrepreneurship to co-founder of a thriving firm. When her partner put "IDEA - don't be nervous" on her Friday calendar more than three years ago, it launched a journey of redefining success on their own terms, proving that sustainable growth comes from doing work you genuinely love with people you genuinely want to help.

Tony Gerdes taught his students something unforgettable: "I can't steer a parked car." The metaphor captures his entire philosophy about professional development. You need to give him something to work with, show a willingness to try, and then he can help steer you toward growth. As Director of Professional Development at Groom Law Group, Tony brings this mindset to approximately 100 attorneys in Washington, DC, combining his theater background with a unique career journey through accounting and legal software training. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Tony's diverse background shapes his approach to attorney development. After leaving classroom teaching when he realized he was "doing the same lessons over and over," Tony discovered that being a good teacher requires being a continual learner. He applies this principle at Groom by establishing clear expectations through written documents, providing timely feedback that actually drives improvement, and workshopping associate writing samples each month. Tony's journey includes an unexpected lesson from early in his career: be careful of people claiming 30 years of experience. They might just be repeating the same year 30 times. This insight fuels his commitment to constant evolution, whether developing new workshops or balancing AI adoption with client preferences and responsible implementation. The conversation reveals Tony's philosophy that life isn't about reaching point B. It's about enjoying the dance itself, a perspective shaped by rejection from a professional theater audition that ultimately led him to direct and star in independent films while building a fulfilling career helping lawyers grow.

What happens when someone who loved reading for pleasure but actively avoided leadership books finally cracks one open — and realizes she'd been doing everything wrong? For Michele Richman, that moment didn't just change how she led. It set off a chain reaction that's now reshaping how legal professionals grow, connect, and lead. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with his sister Michele Richman, Chief People Officer at Lawline, certified coach, triathlete, and soon-to-be published author, for a candid conversation about the mentors, mindset shifts, and pivotal moments behind her rise as one of the legal industry's most compelling voices on leadership development. Michele traces her journey from resisting self-improvement books, because engaging with them meant confronting feelings of inadequacy she'd buried for years, to being transformed first by a leadership coach named Mark Green, then by Dale Carnegie and Brene Brown’s teachings, The final shift came during a pandemic-era group coaching session led by Frame of Mind Coach Kim Ades that cracked her open and changed her focus to the power of her thoughts and beliefs, as well as her vulnerability, for achieving her goals. She earned her coaching certification, built Lawline's Emerging Leaders program, and watched it generate over twelve internal promotions. From there, she took it external, speaking at legal conferences and launching a leadership empowerment program for the professionals who train and develop talent inside law firms. Her upcoming book, The Stories We Almost Don't Tell, captures the belief driving all of it: the stories we're most reluctant to share are often the most important ones to tell and the ones that help others the most.

Steven Harber's path to legal tech started in an unexpected place: selling Japanese robots to automotive factories in 1985. Fresh out of Bucknell with an East Asian studies degree and zero job prospects, he stumbled into a role that taught him the power of eliminating waste from processes. That lesson from Toyota's manufacturing philosophy would later become the foundation for three successful legal technology companies. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Harber's journey from New York Law School graduate to serial legal tech entrepreneur. After practicing law for barely a year, Harber raised his hand when his small firm needed someone with sales experience to commercialize their early document scanning technology. That decision launched a 30-year career, though not without self-doubt about whether he was pivoting because he wasn't good enough at law. Harber's philosophy challenges the Silicon Valley playbook. He calls himself a conservative entrepreneur who built profitable services businesses solving real problems rather than chasing unicorn status. But the journey was far from smooth.Navigating through the Lehman bankruptcy and dealing with challenging owners made for some very long days Today, as Executive Chairman of Cimplifi, Harber is pushing the industry toward fixed-fee AI review. His core belief, drawn from The Old Man and the Sea: you don't have to go out too far to succeed.

Matthew Galando never intended to build a 23-year career at one law firm. As a college student interning at K&L Gates, he quickly realized that while practicing law wasn’t his path, the legal industry itself was. What began as a legal administrative assistant role evolved into leading professional development for a global team of 13—shaping lawyers’ growth from a perspective grounded in strategy, talent, and organizational leadership. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Matt's unexpected journey shaped his leadership philosophy at K&L Gates. His approach centers on compassionate leadership, a concept that might seem counterintuitive in the legal world, but one Matt believes is essential because "the hardest lawyer is still a human being at the end of the day." Matt's transformation evolved by overcoming his default response of "no" after learning more about growth mindset. Now he approaches requests with "what if" thinking, opening possibilities while maintaining thoughtful boundaries. His work spans leadership development programming at every level, from high-potential managers to lateral partners, always emphasizing strategic relationship-building and fundamental skills enhanced by humanity. Drawing from his lifelong music career as a trumpet player who sits first chair in musicals and ensembles, Matt applies performance lessons to professional development: teamwork, adaptability, and the pursuit of polish – knowing that precision matters most when the spotlight is on. Whether he's reading Adam Grant or Kim Scott, his message remains consistent–lead with compassion, default to possibility, and remember that caring for your team comes first.

At 40, Chris Keefer had everything lawyers are supposed to want: partner track, jury trial wins, Indiana Supreme Court experience. He also had something else—a growing certainty that litigation was slowly crushing him. When the celebration after his biggest courtroom victory felt hollow, he knew something had to change. So he made a decision that seemed crazy to everyone around him: sell the house, move his family of five to Oregon, and spend 18 months earning a master's degree in sports product management. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Chris discovered that law school never taught him the one thing he needed most—how to be an entrepreneur. His journey from the University of Oregon back to legal practice wasn't a straight line. It included living apart from his wife Garetta and three young kids for a year, sitting face-to-face with her in a WeWork fishbowl managing a fledgling solo practice, and experiencing panic attacks while their savings dwindled. The turning point came from a couple unexpected sources: a coffee meeting with a colleague trying to understand the types of services Chris was providing, and then a book called Toothfish that taught him to stop competing in crowded markets and create his own. Those insights led Chris to "preventive law"—a framework for helping businesses peek around corners before legal problems materialize. But his real breakthrough was realizing that entrepreneurs who need legal help most can't afford traditional hourly rates. His solution became The Legal Wellness Kit, an Amazon #1 new release and bestseller that delivers hundreds of hours of practical guidance for the cost of a brief phone call with a big firm attorney. Today, as Associate General Counsel at Pacific Seafood and principal of Keefer Strategy, Chris continues building his practice while eyeing his next chapter: more writing, more teaching, and paying forward the knowledge he wished he'd had at the start. His story reveals that mid-career reinvention requires more than courage—it demands partnership, resilience, and the willingness to get comfortable being uncomfortable even when everything feels uncertain.    

Stacey had it all—managing $300-500 million brands as a marketing and advertising executive, traveling the world, leading teams. Then in her mid-thirties, she walked away from that successful career to attend law school full-time. Her colleagues thought she was crazy. For Stacey, law school felt like a vacation compared to her 80-90 hour work weeks. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Stacey's journey from brand management executive to founder of Kalamaras Law Office and later as creator of Trademarkabilities, a practical trademark training academy that has served over 200 attorneys. After working with trademark lawyers in her corporate role, Stacey realized she agreed more with the attorneys than her marketing colleagues, a revelation that sparked her midlife career pivot. Stacey's path wasn't linear. She started her first firm in 2009 after being laid off during the recession, moved in-house, then returned to Big Law again before finally restarting her firm intentionally in 2018 when her mother needed more care. The turning point came when her practical, business-focused teaching style on Lawline attracted thousands of lawyers, and clients started reaching out saying, "My attorney told me I had to watch your course." Her philosophy centers on one powerful truth: "No one is coming to save you." Whether you work for yourself or someone else, you must be your own cheerleader and self-promoter. Stacey reflects that losing two jobs in three years might have broken her at 29, but by her 40s, the business experience she gained earlier in life helped her rebuild her legal career with confidence—and with a strong sense of how to serve clients and their brands.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Steve Gluckman, a pioneer in legal e-learning who recently sold his company SkillBurst Interactive to Barbri. Though not a lawyer himself, Steve has spent over two decades developing innovative training solutions for law firms. Steve shares his entrepreneurial journey from his early days at PwC to founding SkillBurst in 2013, which created customizable, interactive e-learning modules for law firms. He discusses the challenges of timing in business innovation, explaining how his first attempt at legal e-learning was too early for market adoption, but years later the industry was ready, leading to SkillBurst's success. The conversation explores the post-acquisition emotional journey many entrepreneurs face, with Steve candidly discussing the unexpected emptiness he felt after selling his company. He reflects on how much of his identity was wrapped up in being a CEO and the process of figuring out "what's next" while already working on a new stealth-mode venture. Throughout the episode, Steve offers valuable insights into building a successful business in the legal tech space, including his approach to product development, the importance of securing buy-in before building, and how making products "sticky" through customization led to impressive client retention rates. The discussion wraps up with thoughts on leadership and work-life balance, with both hosts sharing their perspectives on building businesses that create personal freedom.  

Amy Woods failed her very first IOLTA audit. Fresh out of school with a master's in accounting, she thought she had everything in order for her lawyer client, until an auditor named Bruno sat her down and explained she was looking at trust accounts like an accountant when the bar wanted something entirely different. That moment of failure became the foundation for a 20-year specialization in an area where 99% of law firms aren't in full compliance. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Amy transformed repeated failures into expertise, building IOLTA Consulting to help attorneys navigate trust account regulations that weren't taught in law school. Working across multiple states, Amy has never walked into a single law firm doing everything correctly—not one. From real estate wire fraud to simple recording errors that snowball into thousand-dollar problems, she's seen how easily well-intentioned attorneys can face suspension or worse for mistakes they didn't know they were making. Amy's vision extends beyond compliance fixes. She's building a team to provide coast-to-coast support while she travels to speak and educate, turning a niche accounting service into a scalable business model with monthly subscriptions and strategic growth plans. The conversation takes a vulnerable turn when Amy shares why she recently shifted her two youngest children from homeschooling to traditional school—her husband's epilepsy diagnosis and the need to prepare financially for an uncertain future. Her story demonstrates how personal challenges can sharpen professional focus, transforming specialized knowledge into both security and service for an underserved legal community.

Kenton Brice sits at the center of what he calls "a massive Venn diagram"—law libraries, legal technology, higher education, and the practicing bar—and from that unique vantage point, he sees something most people miss: law schools have zero incentive to change. With three powerful forces keeping the status quo locked in place (U.S. News rankings, ABA accreditation, and unlimited student loans), traditional legal education persists even as the profession transforms around it. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Kenton's vision for reimagining legal education at the University of Oklahoma College of Law, where he directs the law library and runs the Digital Initiative—a 12-year experiment in building technology competencies outside the required curriculum. Through Tuesday and Thursday lunch-and-learns, conference trips, and hands-on workshops, Kenton prepares students for a profession where managed service organizations are disrupting traditional firm structures and AI is forcing a complete rethinking of legal service delivery. The conversation moves from practical questions about preserving legal materials in a digital age to provocative ideas about trashing the bar exam entirely. His blueprint for building a law school from scratch prioritizes design-oriented curiosity over doctrinal mastery, AI-infused hybrid learning over traditional lectures, and two years of intensive study over three years of diminishing returns. But Kenton's real passion emerges in his vision for the "holistic lawyer." Beyond competencies and technology, he wants lawyers who see themselves as protectors of democracy, not just service providers. When 78% of people can't access the civil justice system and a single mother facing eviction can't find representation, Kenton asks the fundamental question: can we make money and serve people at the same time? His answer, drawn from his men's reading group discussions of Man's Search for Meaning and his weekend woodworking projects, is an emphatic yes—if we're willing to reimagine the profession entirely.

When Jennifer Rakstad's firm surveyed their associates, the feedback was clear: traditional training wasn't having the impact they wanted. As Senior Manager of Learning and Development at White & Case, Jennifer worked hand in hand with a committee of partners to lead the creation of Momentum—a three-day immersive program that's already reached 350 lawyers. What makes it different: every session is designed and taught by the firm's own partners and senior associates, for a true “lawyer-led” experience. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Jennifer's path from litigation to professional development. After applying to 200 judges for clerkships with over a dozen interviews and receiving zero offers, Jennifer regrouped with a targeted approach that landed her a federal clerkship in Puerto Rico. Seven years into litigation practice at Mayer Brown, a colleague noticed her passion for firm initiatives and recruiting work, asking if she'd consider pivoting entirely. That conversation led to her becoming one of the first ICF-certified coaches in a law firm. The Momentum program represents a major investment, taking associates offsite for three days with full partner faculty involvement. The program creates cohort experiences where associates learn from partners who've been in the trenches, with plans to have participants eventually teach each other. Jennifer also shares how a fractured ankle during a family trip to Japan transformed her perspective on accessibility challenges. Despite doctors suggesting she fly home, she completed two more weeks in Japan on crutches, followed by two months in a wheelchair. That experience reinforced the empathy that drives her work developing lawyers.

Sarah Ennor spent years as a securities lawyer at major banks, excelling at sophisticated legal work but challenged by corporate politics and what she sometimes thought was lack of motivation and discipline. In 2015, she left corporate law, traveled to Sri Lanka for a 10-day silent meditation retreat, worked and lived on a New Zealand winery, and returned to launch her own legal practice. But running a solo practice without corporate infrastructure proved unexpectedly overwhelming, until a stranger at a cocktail party asked if she had ADHD. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Sarah's journey from that eye-opening conversation to formal diagnosis, and ultimately to becoming a sought-after speaker who makes ADHD "human and profitable" for law firms and their attorneys, and corporations. Sarah reveals why lawyers are drawn to the profession's constant urgency and novel problems (the very dopamine hits that ADHD brains crave) while also explaining why law firms often punish the behaviors that come with the condition. When she finally tried medication, the fog lifted and she realized she'd been working ten times harder than necessary. She now helps firms move beyond surface-level awareness to create genuinely supportive environments through curiosity and outcome-focused thinking. This conversation goes beyond the "ADHD as superpower" narrative to honestly address the disability many face and the transformative power of self-compassion over discipline. These insights resonate deeply even for those still navigating their own undiagnosed experiences.

Yeve Chitiga immigrated to the United States at sixteen with clear goals shaped by hope and determination: college, law school, becoming an attorney. She followed that path, working in banking in London and later as a corporate lawyer at a top firm, reaching milestones that surpassed her wildest dreams. Along the way, a quieter inner question began to surface about meaning, contribution, and alignment. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Yeve’s journey from financial services attorney to career transition coach for high-achieving professionals in demanding environments. Raised in Zimbabwe, Yeve grew up in a culture rooted in connection where there are no strangers, only extended family. That deep belief in belonging now shapes the heart of her coaching work. Rather than one dramatic turning point, Yeve’s story is marked by a series of moments that invited reflection and realignment across different chapters of her life. Each asked the same essential question: What kind of impact do I want to make? Over time, the answer softened and clarified—meaningful, human-scale impact through one-on-one connection. Motherhood deepened this shift, reshaping success into presence, listening, and moments like when her little one says, “Mommy, I love that you just listened to me.” Then a career shift allowed her to fully embrace pivoting from law to coaching. The conversation weaves through boundaries, faith, cultural expectations, and Yeve’s vision for an intimate retreat at Victoria Falls, one of the world’s most awe-inspiring natural wonders. With its rising mist, roaming wildlife, and expansive sunsets, Victoria Falls becomes both a setting and an invitation: to slow down, reconnect, and rediscover parts of ourselves often lost in the pace of everyday life.

Noah Waisberg left Weil Gotshal without a company, without a plan, and without knowing if the technology would work. For two and a half years, the AI kept failing. There was zero revenue, a newborn at home, and mounting financial stress. Then his co-founder finally cracked it. They bootstrapped to 100 employees before raising $50 million, then pulled off one of the most creative exits in legal tech by selling while keeping 30 people and launching a new company as a spin-out. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Noah's philosophy that you become your best self through challenge, not comfort. As a junior associate at Weil, Noah watched lawyers bill hundreds of dollars an hour for repetitive contract review work they hated and weren't particularly good at. He saw an opportunity for disruption even before legal tech was a defined category. Noah shares the brutal reality of those early years: meeting four computer science PhDs at a Starbucks, choosing his co-founder, then watching month after month as their AI simply didn't work. His candor about going from a well-paying BigLaw job to financial stress with a newborn offers a rare glimpse into what bootstrapping actually costs. The conversation reveals how Noah became an expert at selling efficiency technology to hourly billing lawyers, navigating the paradox that making lawyers faster doesn't automatically reduce client bills. Whether discussing his children's book on AI, his Wall Street Journal bestselling book, or his creative deal structure, Noah proves that challenging yourself and being willing to face years of uncertainty can lead to outcomes you never imagined.  

Miriam Benor convinced her firm to let her create a role that didn't exist: Director of Attorney Coaching at Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP, where she coaches attorneys on anything they want to discuss, personal or professional. After finding her calling as a law school career counselor following seven years as a litigator, she moved over to Pillsbury to do training and development. After innovating numerous firm programs in that role, she pitched her dream job to the firm, and they said yes. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Miriam's unique coaching philosophy that challenges conventional wisdom. When clients struggle with difficult situations, she offers a powerful reframe: instead of only exploring how to overcome obstacles, she asks whether it's worth changing yourself to fit the environment or changing the environment to fit yourself. Her approach combines active listening with direct advice, using metaphors that help people see their challenges from new perspectives and analytical skills that uncover the true root of problems. Miriam has become her firm's canary in the coal mine, spotting trends before they become crises, from pandemic burnout to creating forums after George Floyd's murder to now addressing generational shifts with Gen Z. She presents internally on topics like resilience, feedback, and confidence, sharing how the term "imposter syndrome" has now permeated the zeitgeist - with only a small percentage of attorneys having familiarity with the concept eight years ago to nearly universal awareness today. Beyond coaching, Miriam plays violin with the Los Angeles Lawyers Philharmonic orchestra, performing annually at Disney Hall. Her message resonates: pursuing what makes you happy and fulfilled creates more authentic success than forcing yourself into someone else's definition of achievement.

Virginia Driver spent 36 years as a patent attorney in a profession she entered through a loophole, hired only because no men had applied. Today, she's building AttainIP, an AI-powered platform that could transform how patents get filed, saving attorneys 50% of their time while making the process accessible to entrepreneurs who previously couldn't afford it. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Virginia's journey from being one of eight girls in a 120-person engineering program to becoming the second female patent partner in London. Her path began when a headmistress insisted engineering was "a huge mistake" and urged her to study medicine instead. Her mother's response? "You do what you want to do." Virginia's career took an unexpected turn last December when a former colleague showed her what new reasoning models could accomplish. Within months, she went from part-time consultancy to startup founder, building software that reveals AI's reasoning process—the missing piece that makes other patent tools hard to verify. Her platform uses OpenAI's O3 model to guide users through patent applications while showing exactly how the AI thinks through each task. The conversation reveals how Virginia navigated a male-dominated profession without formal law school, studying at night while raising three children, including a baby during her qualifying exams. Her philosophy, borrowed from Lizzo, captures her approach perfectly: "Get out of your own way." She's learned that lawyers excel at imagining barriers to their own ideas—and that people often don't block you if you just keep moving forward. Now she's applying that same mindset to an industry facing its biggest technological shift, proving that career reinvention doesn't have an age limit.

Nichole Velasquez has never tasted coffee, not since that childhood moment when her sister convinced her to try it and she spit it out all over the kitchen floor. Yet as Fellows Program Director at LCLD, she energizes hundreds of mid-career and senior attorneys through intensive professional development that focuses on something law schools never taught: emotional intelligence. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Nichole recently stepped into running a program that brings 400 high-performing attorneys together for three-day sessions across the country. What she's learned surprises most people: firms don't send their top talent primarily for substantive legal training. They send them for the relationships that form through interactive, table-based learning experiences. Nichole's newest skill is a two-day certification in the EQ-i 2.0 assessment, allowing her to administer emotional intelligence evaluations and coach attorneys on their results. She connects every leadership topic—active listening, difficult conversations, managing up—back to emotional intelligence, showing how this trainable skill underpins everything else. Her managing partner mentor exemplifies this perfectly: despite running an entire firm, he makes every conversation feel like you're the only person who matters in that moment. The conversation turns personal when Nichole shares her experience as a Mexican American growing up in Maryland, where teachers consistently mispronounced her phonetic last name. When she shares this story with audiences, hands go up across the room—that first-day-of-school identity moment resonates deeply. Drawing on Mel Robbins' "Let Them Theory," Nichole teaches a framework for letting others' actions be theirs while controlling your own response. It's about connection over control, presence over perfection.

Jennifer Nelson Flynn never expected to become a TikTok creator. As a fractional general counsel at Dorf Nelson with inhouse counsel and chief privacy officer experience spanning from Arizona Beverage Company to Prestige Consumer Healthcare Inc. and Zevia PBC, she initially joined the platform anonymously just to learn about skincare and her long COVID symptoms from other users. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman discovers how Flynn's curiosity transformed into something much bigger. Her daughter showed her TikTok's educational side, and Flynn dove deep into Korean beauty products, researching ingredients and testing routines. When the results showed up on her skin, she decided to pay it forward. Now Flynn runs two TikTok accounts under Glow Legally Blonde. One teaches skincare routines involving toners, serums, and the skin flooding technique she learned from Korean beauty influencers. The other helps people navigate dysautonomia and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTs), sharing practical tips about hydration, compression socks and managing symptoms the medical community is still learning about. Flynn goes live for an hour at a time, talking directly to her audience without scripts or heavy editing. She records shorts right in the TikTok app and posts consistently to build her following organically. The most surprising benefit? Her confidence as a lawyer has soared. Speaking live to audiences honed her communication skills even more, enabling her to speak clearly and concisely with clients and focus her naturally fast-moving thoughts. Her advice to lawyers hesitant about social media is simple: your unique perspective matters, the learning curve is manageable, and the algorithm rewards consistency over perfection - but if you are speaking about your own legal practice, don’t forget to abide by the rules of professional responsibility and lawyers’ advertising!  

Visibility is not a personality trait. It’s a career skill—and one most lawyers are never taught. Paula T. Edgar, CEO of PGE Consulting Group LLC, helps lawyers and other professionals build influence, credibility, and opportunity through intentional visibility. Often attending more than 18 conferences a year, Paula is strategic about every room she enters, every relationship she builds, and how she positions herself in professional spaces. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Paula at the NALP Professional Development Institute in Washington, DC. Paula shares how early lessons from her Barbadian grandmother and her Jamaican mother, growing up in Brooklyn, shaped her belief that how you show u p matters. She also reflects on how the loss of her mother on September 11, 2001 revealed skills she did not yet recognize: finding information, navigating complexity, and communicating clearly during moments of crisis. After graduating from law school and practicing labor and employment law, Paula realized her real passion was teaching the concrete, often-overlooked skills that differentiate lawyers beyond technical expertise. She challenges the outdated belief that doing good work quietly is enough and explains why visibility, relationship-building, and strategic presence are essential to long-term success. Paula never delivers the same presentation twice, often conducting stakeholder interviews and pre-surveys to customize every training. She shares practical insights on building an intentional network, creating memorable professional experiences, and showing up authentically without performative personal branding.

A year ago, Bjarne Tellmann walked away from three decades as a lawyer, including 17 years as General Counsel at companies like Haleon and Pearson. Today, he's a Senior Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics, running FjordStream Advisors, finishing his second book on AI's impact on law, sitting on boards, and advising large companies. He didn't retire to do less, he retired to do only what gives him energy. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores what triggered Bjarne's shift: recognizing when work that once gave him energy started taking it away. Instead of pushing through, he rebuilt his professional life around teaching, writing, and advising on legal disruption. Drawing on Clayton Christensen's innovation theory, Bjarne explains why dominant law firms face their Kodak moment, not from weakness, but from the very success of legacy models that blind them to change. Law firms charging by the billable hour may discover what Kodak and Nokia learned too late: by the time you realize the game has changed, it's already over. The conversation moves between disruption theory and creative practice. Bjarne reveals how he uses ChatGPT for brainstorming and editing while preserving his voice, why he obsesses over the first minute of every presentation, and how he transformed an 82-page law review article into a podcast using Google's NotebookLM. His reading list spans The Rational Optimist to How Will You Measure Your Life, showing how curiosity across domains fuels innovation. For lawyers contemplating personal, professional, or organizational transitions, Bjarne offers this: focus on the "why" of change before the "what" and "how." Transformation is an emotional journey, not just a rational decision.

Kellam T. Parks never planned to become an entrepreneur. After walking away from practicing law at 26 to wait tables while his mother battled cancer, he discovered something profound: life offers infinite choices, and you're never truly trapped. Today, that philosophy drives how he runs his 14-attorney, 37-person firm with his co-owner and coaches other lawyers through his coaching business, The MOTIVATED Lawyer. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman dives deep into Parks' strategic approach to building a future-ready practice. As a cybersecurity and family law attorney in Virginia Beach, Parks breaks down the biggest threats facing law firms today, from phishing attacks that exploit human error to sophisticated infiltrations where hackers monitor systems for months before striking wire fraud schemes. He explains why enterprise-level security like Cisco Meraki firewalls and multifactor authentication aren't optional luxuries but ethical obligations for protecting client data. The conversation shifts to AI implementation strategy, where Parks shares his firm's transformation journey. They are exploring moving family law from hourly billing to tiered flat fees because AI fundamentally changes the efficiency equation. Parks reveals his entire tech stack, from Lexis AI and StrongSuit AI (formerly Callidus AI) to using Perplexity's Comet browser for research and information gathering. Working with coach Stephanie Everett and implementing a modified EOS system transformed his practice from haphazard success to strategically planned growth. Drawing from Stoic philosophy and books like The Obstacle Is The Way, Buy Back Your Time, and Deep Work, Parks explains how living in the present while planning strategically allows him to run multiple businesses, launch his coaching platform, teach CLE courses, and still maintain work-life balance with seven and a half hours of sleep nightly.

Alexander Almazan almost walked away from practicing law entirely. After bouncing between three firms in five years, the first-generation Cuban-American attorney was exhausted by the billable hour grind and ready to accept a money management position at Credit Suisse in Connecticut. The only thing that stopped him: raising his young family far from Miami meant depriving his children of something his immigrant parents had sacrificed everything to give him. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Almazan to explore how he transformed his frustration with traditional law firm models into a thriving 29-person Florida based law firm now leading the charge on AI integration. His father's journey, arriving in Virginia at age 13 through Operation Peter Pan, separated from family for five years as communism seized Cuba, instilled a work ethic that wouldn't let him settle for pushing paper at firms where success meant hitting arbitrary billing targets. His approach to adoption is refreshingly practical: hire an assistant first, then an office manager, and build systems that free lawyers to practice actual law. He's candid about the billable hour's inevitable death, admitting he's scared but believes fear signals necessary change. The conversation reveals concrete strategies for small firms navigating this transformation, from using AI to turn dense articles into podcasts to training attorneys through short videos rather than hour-long sessions, proving that the right tools can make average attorneys good and good attorneys great.

JJ Powell answered his Eton College scholarship exam at 12, earned degrees from Oxford and Harvard, passed multiple US bar exams, and just completed his doctorate on AI and M&A, all while building a 150-lawyer global firm, producing Tony Award-winning Broadway shows, and maintaining homes in three countries. Yet his most transformative month came not in a courtroom or theater, but in rehab, where burnout forced him to reconsider what success actually means. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how JJ’s radically reimagined legal practice through Powell Continental Group. Instead of traditional offices, his firm operates through nearly 100 exclusive members clubs worldwide, transforming every client meeting into a networking opportunity. Clients become members with access to the firm's clubs and a secure digital vault containing every legal document they've ever signed, accessible at 3 AM when needed. Powell’s journey reveals the power of following unconventional instincts. His client events break the corporate mold, like hosting medieval-themed gatherings in the Mexican jungle that attract major luxury brands. Meanwhile, pro bono work fighting corporate injustice keeps the practice grounded. Now he's launching the legal industry's first members-only retreat in Sicily, in the actual villa where The Godfather was filmed, where clients can vacation while attending lectures and building connections. The conversation turns candid as he discusses struggles with OCD at Oxford that extended his undergraduate degree by a year, and how recent time in rehab became unexpectedly productive both personally and professionally. His advice: don't fight the AI revolution, hire passionate young lawyers hungry to learn, and create your own traditions rather than following society's repetitive annual rituals. High achievement and personal challenges coexist—the key is knowing when to raise your hand and ask for help.

Jon Krop made a decision that would terrify most lawyers: he quit his tech job at 30 and spent seven months in silent meditation at a teacher's center in Arizona. Living in a yurt, no phone, no talking, no reading—just meditation and twice-weekly check-ins with his teacher. What he discovered didn't just transform his relationship with ADHD and anxiety; it set him on an unexpected path toward helping legal professionals cultivate wellbeing. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Jon's journey from Harvard Law student managing ADHD through medication and meditation to becoming CEO of Flourish Legal Wellbeing. Jon candidly discusses how his seven-month retreat rewired his brain so significantly that his medication stopped working the same way—and why he recently got a prescription again anyway, challenging simplistic narratives about wellness cures. When Jon returned from retreat, he went back to working at a law firm while teaching his first mindfulness workshop that same weekend. He spent a year and a half doing both before his wellbeing work grew enough to become full-time. Today, Flourish has evolved from Jon's solo practice into a team of lawyer-turned-experts delivering everything from nutrition counseling to financial wellness across major law firms, with 75% of programming delivered virtually. The conversation reveals Jon's ongoing practice of two months of silent retreat annually, his thoughts on why silence brings immediate relief rather than torture, and how humor becomes essential when discussing serious mental health topics. For legal professionals drowning in stress or curious about meditation beyond the hype, Jon offers a refreshingly honest perspective on what contemplative practice actually demands—and delivers.

As Director of Client Intelligence at Sidley Austin, Rachel Shields Williams transforms messy relationship data into strategic intelligence, tracking how former general counsels become clients, then expert witnesses, then something else entirely.  In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Rachel evolved from a marketing coordinator to President-Elect of the Legal Marketing Association. Her path began with a family business running golf courses and led through ten years in marketing before discovering her calling at the intersection of data, storytelling, and change management. Rachel reveals why law firms desperately need storytellers and change agents as AI transforms the industry. Her role tracking Fortune 100 clients goes beyond traditional CRM, mapping former general counsels, competing law firms, and relationship evolution across systems to build 360-degree intelligence dashboards. She explains why lawyers should embrace firm technology, and why holding emotional space for change matters more than racing toward efficiency. From her year-long executive program in change management to her Lego-building meditation practice, Rachel demonstrates how humanist skills become professional advantages in an increasingly technical world.

Julie Remer spent years as a practicing attorney secretly struggling with ADHD she didn't know she had. Then her five-year-old daughter's diagnosis sparked a revelation: those challenges she'd been white-knuckling through her entire legal career were actually neurological differences shared by 25% of law students today. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Julie's evolution from an attorney hiding her struggles to founder of Amicus Coaching, where she helps neurodivergent lawyers transform perceived weaknesses into strategic advantages. Julie reveals the perfect storm that brings lawyers to her door: billing struggles, communication breakdowns, and executive function challenges that intensify as attorneys advance from associate to partner. She shares her airport medication mishap, losing her scarf, boarding pass, and Starbucks in one chaotic trip, which perfectly illustrates life without treatment. The conversation tackles critical questions: When is ADHD medication necessary versus optional? How do you distinguish between modern distraction and genuine neurodivergence? Why do high-achieving lawyers hit walls after years of successful coping? Julie offers practical frameworks including the power of morning routines over reactive email checking, why billing struggles signal deeper issues, and how understanding dopamine processing explains impulse control challenges. She demonstrates how neurodivergent traits like hyper-focus and creative thinking become superpowers in the right legal practice areas.

Amy Goodson could memorize entire speeches as a child and loved performing on stage—skills that seemed destined for communication work. She was also a dancer and loved exercise as a teen. This love for exercise led to an interest in nutrition, personally and professionally. From a communications degree to a double masters in exercise and sports nutrition, Amy’s 20-year career path has been all about marrying the two together to provide science-backed, practical information to the public. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman speaks with Amy, a registered dietitian who now runs three distinct businesses while traveling six trips in a single month. Amy works with major law firms like Haynes and Boone, where she discovered something surprising: highly successful attorneys often approach nutrition the same way they tackle everything else—by overthinking it. Her solution cuts through the noise with ruthlessly practical strategies that busy professionals can actually implement. Amy's framework centers on a counterintuitive truth: consistent small habits outperform dramatic overhauls every time. She calls it the "compound effect"—the same principle that builds successful legal careers builds sustainable wellness. Rather than advocating extreme protocols like intermittent fasting for active professionals, Amy focuses on stabilizing blood sugar through strategic carbohydrate-protein pairings that maintain focus during marathon court sessions. From her 4:30 AM workout routine to her creature-of-habit approach to meals, Amy embodies the discipline she teaches. Her media training—refined through fifteen separate trainings—translates complex nutritional science into sound bites that stick. This conversation offers attorneys a blueprint for sustaining peak performance without sacrificing the energy that makes them effective advocates.

Jonathan Schutrum's intellectual transformation began during COVID lockdown on nightly walks with his dog through Buffalo's winter streets. While the world shut down, the insurance defense attorney discovered philosophy podcasts that fundamentally changed how he approached legal practice. What started as curiosity evolved into a deliberate framework: treating mental fitness with the same rigor as physical training. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, explores how Schutrum applies ancient wisdom to modern insurance defense work at Dickie, McCamey & Chilcote. From Marcus Aurelius's Meditations to German philosopher Martin Heidegger's phenomenology, he views diverse intellectual pursuits as essential cross-training for the legal mind. His logic is compelling—lawyers already possess the analytical skills philosophy demands, so strengthening those muscles outside the courtroom makes you sharper inside it. Schutrum's approach extends beyond philosophy into deliberate cognitive expansion. When a Germany trip sparked intensive language learning, he discovered it offered the same mental benefits—taking him outside daily worries while exercising different parts of his mind. His visit to the unchanged Nuremberg trial courtroom, with its original 1945 leather chairs and wood paneling, reinforced how thinking across centuries and disciplines enhances legal perspective. He even applies this principle to his work soundtrack, comparing Richard Wagner's complex orchestrations—where multiple sections play different themes that converge into one melody—to managing the simultaneous elements of complex cases. As a Lawline faculty member teaching medical malpractice and strategic depositions, Schutrum embodies his core philosophy: teaching reinforces learning. His framework of "habit stacking"—layering new learning onto existing routines like podcast listening during dog walks—offers attorneys a practical path to compounding professional growth through intentional mental cross-training.  

Karen Munoz spent nearly a decade at a personal injury firm, rising from receptionist to managing partner while handling wrongful death cases and winning multi-million dollar verdicts. But beneath the external success, she was slowly losing herself. Then yoga, recovery, and a master's degree in counseling psychology changed everything. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Karen to explore her transformation from personal injury attorney to trauma-informed wellness coach. As a first-generation Mexican-American who graduated from UIC School of Law in 2008, Karen never felt she fit the traditional lawyer mold. While classmates competed ruthlessly, she focused on genuinely helping clients through their darkest moments—sitting with them without notebooks or computers, offering full presence in a profession built on multitasking. Karen's parallel path began when she walked into her first yoga class as a young attorney and discovered a practice that would save her life. By 2010, she was writing about mindfulness for the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin and teaching yoga to lawyers through the Lawyer's Assistance Program—long before wellness became mainstream in legal circles. In 2021, five years into recovery, she formalized this work by founding Roaring Grace Mindful Wellness. Now pursuing her master's in counseling psychology while also teaching CLE courses on Lawline, Karen bridges ancient wisdom and modern legal challenges. She explains how trauma lives in the body, shares Viktor Frankl's concentration camp-born philosophy on finding meaning, and delivers a powerful message to struggling attorneys: you're not alone, and the light you're searching for already exists within you.

Colin Lachance's journey began at age 10, when a fateful summer camp experience introduced him to law as society's "cheat code." That early exposure launched a decades-long career from telecom regulatory law to becoming an entrepreneur determined to prevent lawyers from being left behind by AI. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Colin's unconventional path to founding LawQi, a platform on a mission to upskill 100,000 attorneys on AI fundamentals before it's too late. After managing the Canadian Legal Information Institute, Canada's most-used legal research resource, Colin recognized an urgent problem: attorneys have a shrinking window to understand how AI works at its core before being relegated to using narrow tools without comprehension. His solution? An interactive sandbox called LawQi, where lawyers learn by doing, guided by an AI assistant trained on the course materials. Colin's contrarian approach challenges traditional legal education. Forgoing CLE accreditation, he charges bar associations as little as $1 per member annually, reflecting his mission-driven focus on impact over revenue. The conversation reveals Colin's unconventional entrepreneurial philosophy—intentionally building a business with a limited lifespan, capping growth at 10 employees, and measuring success by transformation rather than typical venture metrics. His goal is to reach 100,000 lawyers by 2030, building trust to navigate whatever comes next in an unpredictable AI landscape. Colin's journey serves as a wake-up call for legal professionals witnessing AI's rapid integration across research and practice management tools, as demonstrated in Jack Newton's pivotal Clio keynote that left 2,500 lawyers uncomfortably silent about their future. His story urges attorneys to proactively upskill before the window of opportunity closes.

Clarissa Dominguez couldn’t shake the feeling that traditional therapy was keeping her stuck. Despite years of Western treatment for borderline personality disorder—and pouring most of her 401(k) into healing a chronic illness—she kept cycling through the same emotional patterns. So she did something most lawyers would never risk: She walked away from her BigLaw career for an entire year to study neuroscience coaching and rebuild herself from the inside out. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman speaks with Clarissa — now Professional Development Manager at BakerHostetler — about transforming personal crisis into professional expertise. She designs neuroscience-based leadership programs for Baker’s groundbreaking Business Development Coaching Program, a year-long coaching experience focused on growth, performance, and purpose. Clarissa also partners with The Honor Foundation, coaching transitioning special operations leaders as they move from mission-driven service to purpose-driven civilian life. After co-presenting at PDC with Harvard Law Professor Scott Westfahl on The Awakened Brain and purpose-driven leadership, Clarissa now brings flow-state science, nervous system regulation, and spiritual anchoring into BigLaw’s achievement-obsessed culture. Clarissa’s work addresses what she calls the integration crisis in legal practice: Lawyers climb the ladder of billable hours and business development while ignoring the emotional incidents accumulating along the way. This disconnect between intellectual achievement and emotional wellbeing produces high-functioning attorneys who don’t know who they are anymore. Her stance is bold: Lawyers need spiritual grounding—reflection, stillness, prayer, community—not just training and productivity hacks. Especially now, as AI begins reshaping the profession and the value of being human becomes the competitive edge. This conversation offers practical neuroscience-backed tools for legal professionals who feel stuck in chronic stress, achievement addiction, or the exhausting pursuit of external validation.

Michael Grupp started his legal career at Freshfields and Hogan Lovells before founding Bryter, a workflow automation platform he calls "Lego for lawyers." Over the years he has raised $90 million, leads 100 employees across three continents, and teaches at Goethe University. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Grupp's journey from Big Law associate to legal tech entrepreneur navigating the chaos of AI transformation. Based in Frankfurt, Germany, Grupp has built a company that turns repetitive legal processes into automated enterprise apps without requiring lawyers to write code. His approach to legal tech and the ups and downs of legal tech life is humour, and endurance sports. “Don’t take yourself too seriously”, he advocates, and proposes to do sports that get you to your limits. “Laughing and triathlons will keep you on the ground.” His contrarian views extend to legal education, where he teaches in Germany's eight-year training system that prepares lawyers to be judges—a career 95% won't pursue. With AI automating research and drafting, Grupp advocates radical reform: less memorization, more focus on project management, client relationships, and business skills law schools ignore. He shifts between two views of AI's impact: either lawyers drastically underestimate the irreplaceable human work they do, or the industry faces real contraction as 20-30% of billable work disappears. The conversation reveals lessons from "The Culture Code," which transformed how Grupp builds teams, and his Ironman training, which taught him that consistency beats talent—just showing up is most of the battle.

Marc W. Halpert encountered the same paralyzing problem across professions: all struggling to talk about themselves despite extraordinary credentials. The pattern was universal—high achievers frozen by fear, worried about sounding "too out there," dragging themselves through the mud instead of showcasing their value. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Marc, a serial entrepreneur turned LinkedIn branding strategist who helps attorneys break free from the psycho-cultural programming that keeps them invisible. Marc's philosophy cuts against conventional wisdom: you're not bragging when you share your expertise—you're serving your future clients by helping them understand why you do what you do. His "know, feel, believe, do" framework transforms LinkedIn from a digital resume into a strategic platform for authentic professional visibility. The conversation reveals why legal professionals particularly struggle with self-promotion, how Marc teaches without slides to promote authentic expertise, and his counterintuitive advice on consistency of original content—post when you have something important to say, not according to arbitrary schedules. From his two published books to teaching at major law firms, Marc demonstrates how authentic visibility creates opportunity without the aggressive selling lawyers fear. For professionals stuck between imposter syndrome and the fear of appearing salesy, this episode offers strategies to finally let your value bubble up.

Fifteen years ago, Richart Ruddie survived on rice and frozen shrimp while working six months without pay, taking out negative equity from ATMs just to get by. Today, after selling his bootstrapped reputation management company for more than competitors who raised $70 million, he's building Captain Compliance—a data privacy software company protecting businesses from costly compliance violations that could mean generational wealth. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, explores Ruddie's unconventional path from valet parking luxury cars to serial legal tech entrepreneur. After a mentor advised him to intern anywhere during the 2008 financial crisis—even for free—Ruddie spent six months earning nothing while learning digital marketing at a hedge fund's startup. That SEO expertise became the foundation for Profile Defenders, which he launched in March 2011 and grew to $90,000 monthly revenue by December of that year, all while maintaining obsessive client service that included taking 3 AM calls to bury damaging content before morning meetings. Ruddie's approach defied Silicon Valley convention at every turn. He bootstrapped while competitors raised massive funding, prioritized profit over revenue growth, and let efficiency become his competitive advantage—ultimately outperforming venture-backed rivals and achieving a more successful exit despite far less capital. Now with Captain Compliance, Ruddie tackles an even bigger opportunity as privacy laws proliferate beyond California and GDPR. The stakes are higher—he's raising venture capital for the first time while managing two young children—but the market potential is staggering, with competitors selling for nearly $2 billion. His journey proves that grit, efficiency, and customer obsession can beat big budgets every time.

Johnna Story has spent three decades at Finnegan—a remarkably rare tenure in today's legal landscape. But her longevity isn't just about staying; it's about evolving a profession that barely existed when she started. As Director of Professional Development and Wellbeing, Johnna has watched attorney development transform from an afterthought into a strategic imperative. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Johnna built her 1,700+ day meditation streak using the free Insight Timer app and why she's convinced that wellbeing isn't dessert—it's the main course. Starting as an HR assistant in 1995 at a firm of 120 attorneys where professional development "wasn't really a thing," Johnna grew alongside an emerging profession that truly coalesced in the early 2000s. Today, she supports 350 attorneys at Finnegan, helping them develop the self-discipline, responsiveness, and authenticity that technology can't replicate. Johnna's approach addresses the billing hour paradox directly: taking time for wellbeing means time away from billable work. Her solution involves meeting attorneys where they are—whether through 10-minute tips on the firm's landing page, secondary trauma support for pro bono lawyers, or monthly programming with benefits providers like Cigna and Prudential. She's learned that impacting even one person counts as a win. The conversation turns vulnerable as Johnna discusses losing her mother in September 2025, revealing how complicated grief intersects with workplace authenticity. Her philosophy of "selective vulnerability" offers a framework for bringing your whole self to work while maintaining boundaries—admitting you don't know everything, being willing to learn, and recovering from mistakes. These human skills matter more than ever as AI creates knowledge gaps while demanding different competencies from emerging attorneys.