Lawyers Who Learn

Angeli Raven Fitch failed the California bar exam five times before finally passing on her sixth attempt—collapsing on a sidewalk in tears when she saw the results. That resilience now fuels a career spanning criminal defense, AI ethics education, competitive storytelling, and caregiving for her mother with advanced dementia. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Angeli to trace the thread running through her many careers—attorney, faculty member, voice actor, children's book author—and finds it comes down to one thing: authentic self-expression. That instinct shows up in her legal work, where as co-founder of the Three Strikes Justice Center she's helped free clients serving life sentences for nonviolent offenses, once putting a vulnerable client on the stand against expert advice and watching the judge visibly soften. It shows up again on stage, where she's won storytelling competitions drawing on an acting background that taught her to live inside a story rather than recite it. Fitch also teaches Lawline courses on AI ethics, warning that lawyers who ignore confidentiality and competence rules are courting real risk. Just as striking is her reflection on caring for her mother, who no longer recognizes her: rather than grieve the parent she lost, Fitch has learned to join her mother's world, finding unexpected joy there. This conversation offers a model for embracing failure as fuel, treating storytelling as a skill, and approaching AI's ethical demands with curiosity rather than fear.

Hector Valle spent 11 years trying nearly 150 jury trials as a Dallas, Texas gang unit prosecutor, piecing together complex evidence and reluctant witnesses into stories that jurors could understand and trust. He had no idea those same skills would one day make him one of Texas's leading voices on college athletes' rights and a go-to communications strategist at the crossroads of law, public opinion, and sports. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Hector to trace a career that refuses to stay in one lane: from the DA's office to the General Land Office under George P. Bush, from launching his own podcast to teaching strategic communications at Southern Methodist University to testifying before the Texas Legislature on NIL legislation and advising athletes and stakeholders before most attorneys and casual fans knew what NIL stood for. Hector's years prosecuting gangs, where witnesses didn't want to testify and cases had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, became the North Star for his later work helping state agencies communicate and exhibit transparency to the taxpayer during active litigation. While many attorneys respond with "no comment," Hector built a philosophy and methodology around educating and winning in the court of public opinion while achieving favorable results for clients. Now a Lawline faculty member with five-star ratings across more than 2,000 course completions, Hector also challenges attorneys to stop wrapping their identity around their job title, which frees them to pivot their career to other industries and advocacy that can be even more fulfilling. This conversation is essential for any lawyer questioning whether their skills translate beyond their current role, or ready to build a brand that outlasts any single position.

Kyle Shanon earned the nickname "Bitcoin Kid" in his first semester of law school, when he peppered professors with questions no one could answer: Can cryptocurrency go in a will? Is it a security? Years later, he's built a thriving niche answering exactly those questions for real clients. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, talks with Kyle about the unlikely path that took him from a directionless 3L—who put off the bar exam to chase other options—to an estate planning attorney at Crow Estate Planning and Probate, now deeply entrenched in the cryptocurrency and digital asset space. Kyle traces his fascination with Bitcoin to childhood in Tennessee, watching his father return from Iraq with foreign currency that turned out to be worthless—an early lesson in how fragile money can be. That instinct now shapes how he helps clients protect digital wealth, from securing crypto wallets to avoiding cautionary tales like the man who tossed a hard drive holding thousands of Bitcoin into a landfill. Kyle also unpacks where Bitcoin fits in a world eyeing digital currencies, translating complex financial ideas into plain-English estate planning guidance. His Lawline course, "Estate Planning and Probate for the Digital Age," has drawn over 1,000 attorneys and a 4.9-star rating. As digital assets go mainstream, Kyle's conversation offers a roadmap for attorneys who want to stay ahead of a fast-changing practice area—and proof that understanding the technology isn't optional anymore.

When Tracy Sanders Rucker began researching workplace appearance discrimination after her own hair loss experience, she uncovered a space where employment law, personal identity, and corporate culture collided. What started as personal curiosity became a book, then a brand, then a thriving CLE teaching platform — with a speaking calendar now booked through year's end, from Yale to major national law firms. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Tracy, a Syracuse Law graduate specializing in employment law and workforce development, to trace her decade-long journey from first-time author in 2016 to full-time legal educator and consultant. After stepping back from immigration practice during a turbulent political climate, Tracy settled into her South Carolina lake house and turned 10 years of quiet brand-building into a full-time teaching career. Tracy breaks down the post-DEI workplace through her employee handbook course, explaining why smart employers are now focusing on voluntary inclusion and risk management rather than checkbox compliance. She also shares the story behind her hair straightener MDL course — and how one honest student review pushed her to expand the topic beyond a single demographic into the broader world of carcinogens in beauty products. Throughout the conversation, Tracy reflects on how The Four Agreements, The Let Them Theory, and The Prophet shaped her core belief: character matters more than comfort. Her story is a reminder that the best time to build something meaningful is long before you think you need it.

Chip Cannon graduated from Tulane with a history and German degree, no burning desire to practice law, and a scholarship to study in West Berlin — where he'd find himself in a bar with friends the very night the wall fell. It took four years abroad, a near-expired LSAT, and a year and a half of temping to finally land at a small energy regulatory firm. He never looked back. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman speaks with Chip Cannon, partner at Hogan Lovells and adjunct professor at George Washington University Law School, about a 30-year career that has tracked almost perfectly with the transformation of the American power sector — from regulated monopoly to competitive markets, and now to the AI-driven data center boom. Cannon brings rare clarity to one of the most urgent infrastructure challenges of our time. A data center can take six months to build but six years to get powered — and regulatory complexity across 50 states makes that gap hard to close. He describes a site in northern Louisiana nearly the size of Manhattan, currently nothing but land and worker camps, that will require three new gas-fired plants just to operate. Beyond the energy world, Cannon shares a personal lesson from a toxic workplace that forced him to examine not just what others had done wrong, but what he owed himself — including self-forgiveness. His message to law students: careers are not linear, scrappiness has real value, and the path forward rarely looks the way you planned.

Christine Hummel walked into law school with one goal: become the compassionate estate planning attorney who helps families through their darkest moments — just like the attorneys who helped her mother after her father died suddenly when Christine was a child. What followed was anything but the plan. A cross-country move, no law license in a new state, and a single emergency phone call from a loyal colleague became the unlikely foundation of a 24-year consulting business she never saw coming. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Christine Hummel, founder of Hummel Consultation Services, to trace the winding road from grieving daughter to accidental entrepreneur — and how a niche she stumbled into became a career that may be helping far more people than estate planning ever could have. Christine shares how she launched her Medicare Secondary Payer compliance practice with almost no contacts and no clients — and how teaching became her secret weapon for growth. She unpacks why she insisted on delivering entire five-hour CLEs solo: one clear, authoritative voice in a notoriously gray-area field keeps attorneys from leaving more confused than when they arrived. It also turned out to be brilliant marketing. With over 15 courses and 5,000 completions on Lawline, Christine's teaching has become her most powerful business development tool — converting curious attorneys into consulting clients one CLE at a time.

What if the reason you became a lawyer had nothing to do with money, prestige, or even a specific practice area — but with preparing for a geopolitical event that hasn't happened yet? That's Jeonghoon Ha's story. A former foreign policy scholar, he pursued law with one goal in mind: being ready to contribute to Korean reunification when the moment comes. That unusual origin shaped everything — including how he ended up as one of the clearest legal voices on blockchain, stablecoins, and digital asset regulation. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Jeonghoon, a solo practitioner and Lawline faculty member specializing in Web3 and digital asset law. Together they unpack why stablecoins exist, what the GENIUS Act actually does, and why the U.S. pivot away from a central bank digital currency may be a calculated move in the global currency war — all in language that doesn't require a finance degree to follow. But the conversation goes well beyond the law. Jeonghoon talks about leaving Big Law to build his own practice, how preparing CLE courses forced him to become a sharper thinker, and what surprised him about teaching on Lawline — including client referrals he never anticipated. He rounds it out with the book that shaped his twenties and the rap song he keeps returning to. A wide-ranging conversation about curiosity, preparation, and building a career around something you genuinely believe in.

Jonathan Cohen became a mental fitness expert the hard way. As a Bronx DA in the Special Victims Unit, he prosecuted trauma cases while training for ultramarathons and studying what separates elite performers from everyone else. When those worlds collided, he built something most attorneys have never been offered: a practical system for managing the mind under pressure. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Jonathan to trace that journey—from Bronx prosecutor to Director of Sales at PNY Technologies—and the mental fitness practice he built along the way. Jonathan now teaches the Lawline CLE course Mental Fitness for Lawyers, which has earned 1,000 completions and a 4.9 out of 5 rating. At the heart of his approach is one deceptively simple formula: Event + Response = Outcome. Lawyers default to reactive, undisciplined responses—and Jonathan argues the fix isn't therapy or yoga, but practical tools: intentional breathing, chasing perfect days, and treating recovery as something you actively build, not passively wait for. His most honest moment? Failing a sub-three-hour marathon twice and realizing the person he became in pursuit of that goal mattered more than the finish line. That mindset shift, he believes, is exactly what the legal profession needs right now.

Most lawyers practice law. Gigio Koshy Ninan (‘Gio’) built a machine around it. State and Federal cases in three states, a thriving firm co-run with his wife, five Lawline courses with over 4,000 completions — and a brand strategy most law firms pay consultants to figure out. He just lived it. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, digs into how a kid from the Bronx — who almost became a high school history teacher — turned teaching into his sharpest competitive weapon. Gio breaks down how he uses AI tools like NotebookLM to craft courses people actually finish, why prompting well is now a core legal skill, and where AI will genuinely disrupt law practice — and where it simply won't touch it for decades. His take on the fractional GC world is particularly sharp: disruption isn't coming, it's already here. But immigration law? Litigation? Still human territory for the foreseeable future. Then there's his "R&R of lawyering" framework — reputation and relationships — the unglamorous system behind every major opportunity that's come his way, from Rutgers commencement speeches to federal court keynotes to clients who find him without a single cold call. The lesson he keeps coming back to: in a world where clients don't know who to trust, the lawyers who teach, show up, and build in public are the ones who win.

Carrie H. Cohen has seen the American justice system from nearly every angle — as a civil rights attorney, a state and federal prosecutor, and now as a white collar defense partner at Morrison Foerster. That rare journey gives her a perspective few attorneys can match: she knows what it looks like to build a criminal case, tear one apart, and guide clients through the most serious moments of their careers. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Carrie for a candid conversation about current trends in federal law enforcement and new priorities including the increasing role of State Attorneys General in all areas of enforcement. From a renewed focus on narcotics trafficking to the  dismissal of charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, Carrie cuts through the noise with clarity that only comes from having lived it. Carrie takes listeners inside the Sheldon Silver prosecution — and the surprising detail that cracked the case open. She explains why political corruption cases are so hard to win, what it really means to guide someone through a potential criminal charge, and how empathy turns out to be one of the most important skills a defense attorney can have. Carrie also teaches a seminar on public corruption at University of Pennsylvania Law School, and shares how today's headlines have transformed her classroom. Her belief in democratic institutions — tested but intact — makes this a grounding conversation for any professional trying to make sense of a complicated moment in American law.

What happens when a lawyer gets penalized — not for using AI, but for failing to catch someone else's AI-generated error? That's one of the counterintuitive lessons at the heart of John Koss's thinking: in the age of generative AI, ethical competence means understanding the tools even if you never touch them. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with John Koss, Head of Innovation and AI at Mintz, to explore what responsible AI adoption actually looks like inside a 600-attorney firm. John also teaches at Suffolk Law School and created the Lawline course Human Judgment Required, now one of the platform's most-completed ethics programs. John unpacks why AI hallucinates legal citations — and why switching to a paid tool doesn't solve it. He also raises a warning most firms overlook: feeding client information into a public-facing AI can waive attorney-client privilege, a principle already tested in federal court. And before firms rush to buy the next platform, he argues the real work is unglamorous — cleaning up and organizing the firm's own data so any AI tool can actually do its job. His own path mirrors that tension between speed and substance. A product liability litigator turned e-discovery pioneer, he earned an MBA from Kellogg while working full-time — not for the credential, but because the job was pulling him toward building something. His message to lawyers feeling overwhelmed: know how the tools work, know how to use them, and the noise gets quieter.

Stephanie Everett built her career by doing the one thing most lawyers avoid: asking the hard questions. After joining Lawyerist to launch Lawyerist Lab, navigating a leadership transition, and merging with Affinity Consulting, she's now Chief Growth Officer of a company helping small and mid-size law firms build healthier, more profitable businesses. Her secret weapon? Refusing to accept "I need to hire more people" as a real answer. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Stephanie to unpack what it actually takes to grow a law firm in a world being reshaped by AI. They cover her entrepreneurial journey from Atlanta-based consultant to co-owner of a coaching program David says he'd model his own after, and what she learned about building businesses that serve their owners rather than consume them. The episode also dives into AI integration, from Lawyerist's weekly AI workshops for Lab members to Affinity's new Claude implementation packages. Stephanie's take is nuanced: pre-built tools are a starting point, but a lawyer's real edge lies in customizing them with the provisions, templates, and judgment they've spent years developing. For attorneys feeling stuck, behind on AI, or just plain overwhelmed, this conversation delivers a grounded roadmap for what comes next.

Scott Sholder didn't plan on becoming one of the lawyers at the center of one of the most consequential legal battles of the AI era. The entertainment litigator and partner at Cowan, DeBaets, Abrahams & Sheppard LLP — a boutique firm with a long history in film, television, theater, music, visual arts, and publishing — found his copyright expertise suddenly in high demand the moment generative AI began reshaping the creative economy. Now co-counsel on class action suits against Anthropic and OpenAI, Scott is helping define where human authorship ends and machine output begins. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Scott to unpack the fast-moving legal landscape where copyright law and generative AI collide. Scott breaks down why raw AI output belongs to no one even if a prompt might earn copyright protection. He explains the crucial distinction between input and output claims, what thin copyright actually means, and why effort alone doesn't make AI-generated work protectable. In the midst of a litigation landscape  with over 100 lawsuits filed against AI companies and settlements pending, Scott offers a practitioner's view of a legal doctrine under genuine stress. But the conversation doesn't stop at doctrine. Scott shares how a journalism major who once dreamed of music transactional work ended up in litigation — and why staying visible in a competitive field has everything to do with being unapologetically yourself. His lifelong taekwondo practice and intentional approach to stress reveal a lawyer who builds discipline into every part of his life. For any legal professional navigating the collision of creativity and technology, this episode is required listening.

In March 2020, David Lat checked into NYU Langone struggling to breathe. Seventeen days later—having been intubated and fighting for his life—he walked out with a clarity he hadn't expected: life is short, and he wanted to return to doing work that he loved. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with David Lat—Harvard undergrad, Yale Law grad, former federal prosecutor, founder of Above the Law, and now the writer and publisher behind Original Jurisdiction—for a wide-ranging conversation about legal journalism, AI's disruption of the profession, and the future of the legal industry. David shares how that near-death experience became the catalyst for launching Original Jurisdiction, a subscription newsletter and podcast that lets him do exactly what he loves: write. He reflects on why he walked away from Above the Law and why running a deliberate one-person operation feels like freedom, not limitation. The conversation digs into the legal profession's most pressing challenges—from unauthorized practice of law and AI dismantling Big Law's training pipeline to whether the billable hour can survive what's coming. David also opens up about sharing his COVID ordeal publicly—how those social media posts kept him connected during lonely hospital nights and reminded the profession this was no joke. His book recommendations, including Status Anxiety and On Liberty, reveal the intellectual curiosity behind one of legal media's most distinctive voices. This is a conversation about choosing meaning over prestige, and finding the courage to build a career that is entirely, unapologetically your own.

Ahmad Alokush has spent his career at the intersection of technology and regulated industries, building AI systems for Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays, and some of the world's largest law firms. But his most important insight has nothing to do with code. It's a philosophical warning rooted in Plato: stop treating AI like a human. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Ahmad to unpack two of his most popular Lawline courses, AI in the Courtroom and Decoding Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, and the Law, and the conversation gets surprisingly candid and practical. Ahmad explains why generative AI doesn't actually think. It guesses. That distinction matters enormously in a legal setting, as one judge discovered when he ran the same damages analysis three times in open court and got three different answers. Ahmad also breaks down prompt engineering, the underrated skill that separates lawyers who use AI effectively from those who get burned by it, and why a single well-built prompt can be worth more than any off-the-shelf legal tech subscription. The episode also tackles the rapidly shifting crypto legal landscape, the Genius Act, the U.S. Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, and an SEC that is finally committing to telling you the rules before penalizing you for breaking them. For any attorney trying to make sense of where crypto regulation is actually heading, this conversation cuts through the noise. If you've ever wondered whether you can really trust AI in your practice, this episode will change how you think about it.

What if watching your parents' destructive courtroom battle as a nine-year-old could become the catalyst for transforming how thousands of families end their marriages? For Elizabeth (Liz) Vaz, that painful childhood memory didn't just shape her. It gave her an unshakeable professional mission decades later. At 55, she still remembers every detail of how ugly it got, and how no one was looking out for the kids. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Liz Vaz, Collaborative divorce attorney and Lawline faculty member, to explore how she turned personal trauma into a pioneering legal practice and why collaborative divorce may be the most underutilized tool in family law today. Elizabeth's model keeps families out of the courtroom entirely. Each spouse retains their own Collaboratively trained attorney, but instead of battling before a judge, the couple works alongside a financial neutral and a mental health professional to craft their own agreement. The result is roughly a third of the cost of traditional litigation, with decisions made by the family, not a stranger in a robe who doesn't know them. She also dismantles the biggest myth surrounding Collaborative divorce: that it only works when couples already agree. Parties can be deeply at odds. The only requirement is a willingness to sit at the table. It's a reframe that opens the door far wider than most attorneys or clients realize. For Liz, this was never just a career choice. Sometimes your deepest wound points you straight toward your life's work.

Joni Watke has spent decades championing LGBTQ+ rights. She's a social justice advocate to her core. So when she took an implicit bias test and discovered she had a measurable preference for white people, she was mortified — and spent days trying to convince herself the results were wrong. Then she realized that if she couldn't say it out loud, she was part of the problem. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman talks with Joni Watke, Nebraska family law attorney and founder of Academy LGBTQ, about what it actually means to show up for marginalized clients — in the courtroom and in the classroom. Joni didn't set out to become an LGBTQ+ advocate. She fell into family law through her uncle's practice, and it wasn't until a DOMA ballot vote in 2000 — when she realized the opposition wasn't a fringe minority — that something shifted. That awakening led to 30 years representing same-sex couples and transgender clients through an increasingly hostile legal landscape. She walks through why a birth certificate alone doesn't protect parental rights, why hospital visitation documents belong in every same-sex estate plan, and why transgender clients in certain states now face jail time simply for using a public restroom — part of more than 500 anti-LGBTQ+ bills pending across the country. Her training work through Academy LGBTQ meets all of this with science rather than politics. But what ties her practice and her teaching together is a willingness to keep discovering what she doesn't know, and do something about it.

Most business owners sign an LOI for a flashy, headline purchase price and expect to receive that full amount at closing. What they actually receive is often much less and the difference was hiding in plain sight the entire time. James Greifzu has spent his career helping ensure that gap never catches his clients off guard, and in this episode he pulls back the curtain on the soft skills, strategic timing, and financial math that separate successful dealmakers from disappointed ones. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with James Greifzu, a partner at Wiggin and Dana LLP who advises private equity groups, family offices, and closely held businesses on complex M&A transactions. A former New York big law attorney who lives by “early to bed and early to rise”, James brings a distinctive discipline to both his schedule and his deals. James introduces a framework every business owner should understand before signing anything: the difference between "generally wealthy" and "specifically wealthy" people and why the latter consistently leave money on the table by refusing to take advice. He unpacks the real math behind headline purchase prices and the actual net closing payment to the seller, why getting an M&A attorney involved before the LOI is signed may be your highest-ROI decision, and why being decent at Excel is the easiest way to stand out as a lawyer. James closes with two ideas that stick: what Brave New World taught him about building a great deal team, and why pushing your chair back and walking away from your desk might be the most productive move you make all day.

What happens when a lawyer stops hiding the best parts of himself and starts treating his own life with the same strategic intentionality he'd bring to representing Beyoncé? For Khasim Lockhart, that mindset shift didn't just change his outlook, it unlocked a career that most attorneys wouldn't believe was possible. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Khasim Lockhart, Entertainment &IP / Legal Ethics attorney at Frankfurt Kurnit Klein & Selz, Adjunct Professor at Fordham Law, and recording artist, all at once. Raised in Dominica before moving to Queens at age seven, Khasim built his identity around mentorship from an early age, launching a college prep program for high school athletes and eventually interning at Beyoncé's Parkwood Entertainment during law school. That experience gave him a framework he still uses today: manage your life the way you'd manage a global icon's career with intention, strategy, and no apologies. Khasim walks through the daily practices that keep him grounded across three demanding roles, morning self-assessments modeled after hedge fund meetings, weekly calendar planning that blocks studio time alongside court deadlines, and a teaching philosophy rooted in vulnerability and empathy. His course at Fordham, focused on peer mentoring and leadership, grew directly from a handshake after a first-year contracts class, a reminder that small, intentional moments compound into defining opportunities. What makes this conversation stand out is Khasim's honest reckoning with what it costs to suppress your creative identity in pursuit of professional credibility — and what becomes possible when you stop. For any lawyer feeling like they're leaving the best parts of themselves on the shelf, this episode is a blueprint for building something more whole.

Before you speak, you are seen. Before your expertise is evaluated, your presence is assessed. At the highest levels of the legal profession, that assessment is not casual. It’s decisive. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Estelle Winsett, a former litigator and AmLaw 200 Director of Professional Development who now works at the intersection of style, strategy, and leadership for women in law. Estelle spent 20 years inside law firms. She saw a pattern no one was willing to name: the one thing women lawyers were quietly struggling with was something almost no one in the industry was addressing. How to dress with purpose and confidence in an increasingly informal, high-stakes profession. Brilliant women were doing exceptional work, yet being experienced in ways that diluted their authority. Not because of what they delivered. Because of how they were perceived delivering it. There is no formal dress code in law. But there is a standard. Unspoken, constantly evaluated, and quietly consequential. And as the profession has gotten more casual, the challenge has gotten harder, not easier. Business casual removed the old guardrails without replacing them, and the women navigating client-facing roles and firm leadership are the ones absorbing that uncertainty every morning. In a profession where women partners are already scrutinized more than their peers, visual strategy is not a nice-to-have. It is a professional discipline as critical as business development or client management. Estelle introduces her signature three-month transformation process, built on a precise methodology: body architecture, color strategy, and aesthetic clarity before any purchasing decisions are made. She unpacks her Rule of Three framework and delivers a truth most overlook: fit carries more authority than price. The conversation also draws on Gay Hendricks' The Big Leap, exploring the difference between a zone of excellence and a zone of genius, and the courage it takes to leave what is successful in pursuit of what is true. At the partner level, competence is assumed. What separates you is how that competence is experienced. And that experience begins the moment you are seen. For any woman attorney who has wondered whether how she shows up visually is helping or holding her back: this conversation will make the answer unmistakable.

What do you do when you're a lawyer making great money but feel completely miserable? Scott Solkoff walked away from a prestigious securities litigation firm, complete with a corner office overlooking Tampa Bay, and spent his two-week vacation at his father's small community law firm. But what he found was far from defeat. His father was one of the founding fathers of elder law itself. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Scott Solkoff, elder law attorney, Lawline faculty member, and founder of Elder Law College, to trace a career shaped by serendipity, personal crisis, and a calling to help families navigate life's hardest moments. Scott unpacks the distinction between estate planning and elder law: while estate planning focuses on what happens after death, elder law focuses on quality of life before it. From protecting assets against long-term care costs to planning for incapacity, Scott explains why most families wait too long and what's at stake when they do. The conversation takes unexpected turns: a teenage venture selling microwave radiation inspections, a midlife crisis that sparked Elder Law College, a heart attack at 43, and a phone call that arrived at exactly the right moment. Scott reflects on the adult learning curve and how the phrase engraved on his father's tombstone, "do well by doing good," became his professional north star.

What happens when a test you take over a bottle of wine on a Thursday night ends up rewriting your entire career? For Kyle Robisch, founding partner of Latitude Legal's Tampa office, discovering that his number one strength was "Woo" — the drive to win others over and forge genuine connections — hit like a revelation. He was a Big Law litigator spending his days in conflict and argument, and here was hard evidence pointing him somewhere entirely different. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Kyle to unpack what the CliftonStrengths assessment revealed about his true superpower — and how that self-knowledge eventually powered a leap from senior associate to legal talent entrepreneur. Kyle explains why seeing three people-focused traits at the top of his results felt jarring for someone whose job was to argue and fight. That jarring feeling became an inflection point. The heaviness he felt in litigation wasn't weakness — it was misalignment. David shares his own results and together they explore what it means to stop performing someone else's version of success and start living inside your zone of genius. He also reflects on Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and its core lesson: give freely, build genuinely, and good things follow. It's a philosophy he now lives daily at Latitude, where his job is the connection — helping high-caliber lawyers find flexible, fulfilling ways to practice. The takeaway is simple but hard-won: find the work that doesn't just use your skills, but gives you energy.

Sam Davidoff spent twenty years mastering the art of litigation at one of Washington D.C.'s most elite firms — but the kid who taught himself to program at 15 never fully let go of his first love. When he finally told his wife, she'd seen it coming long before he had, and that was all he needed. That conversation became the catalyst for Align, a digital binder platform built to move trial lawyers off paper and onto their iPads. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, traces Sam's unlikely path from St. John's College, where he spent four years wrestling with Plato and Aristotle around a seminar table, to Yale Law, to a partnership at Williams & Connolly, to first-time founder. That unconventional philosophical education gave him something most lawyers never develop: the habit of stopping to examine how he works, not just what he's working on. Sam opens up about the brutal realities of legal tech sales, how convincing a partner isn't enough, how institutional inertia can bury even an obvious product, and why building a startup feels exactly like a home renovation that costs twice what you budgeted. He also shares the practice that keeps his small team sharp: every other Friday is a mandatory no-product professional development day, where learning anything — watercolor painting included — is fair game. For lawyers and entrepreneurs alike, Sam's story is a reminder that "someday" has an expiration date, and that the examined life doesn't just make for good philosophy — it makes for better decisions.

Barry Seidel was at the peak of his success—running a thriving personal injury practice while building a lucrative per diem business, which was featured on the cover of the New York Law Journal. Then, at 43 years old, he had a heart attack—one his doctors called a "no-risk-factor" event, apparently triggered by anger and stress. What followed was a complete reimagining of how he approached law and life. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Barry's transformation from an angry, stressed attorney to someone who has embraced the ongoing process of learning to manage the emotional aspects of law practice and life. After a year away from practice, Barry pivoted from personal injury law to probate and estate administration, continuing to practice for another 25 years while developing new skills for handling stress. Barry's journey includes starting his own practice straight out of law school. His recent book, "Evolutions of a Law Practice, How I Opened My Own Practice Right Out of Law School….and lived to tell about it" captures his non-traditional path through multiple career evolutions. In this episode, Barry discusses how staying curious and adaptable can transform adversity into opportunity. Now at 69 and transforming his practice to semi-retirement mode, he's focused on writing, speaking, and helping others navigate legal practice challenges—proof that even the most difficult moments can become the foundation for a life without regrets.

Most lawyers chase growth through more clients and more cases. Michelle Itkowitz built her practice by doing the opposite. After her first five years as a lawyer, Michelle realized that saying yes to everything was burnout waiting to happen. She narrowed her focus to landlord-tenant law in New York City, committed to mastering the niche, and built a boutique practice rooted in intentional selectivity. Today, she fields hundreds of inquiries each year and accepts only about 20 cases, guided by three non-negotiables: she must add real value, the client must be able to pay her rate, and the relationship must work. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Michelle transformed deep subject-matter expertise into authority and impact. For decades, she has read the appellate decisions in her field, taught extensively, and created content that sharpens her thinking. Her podcast, Learn to Live Better: A Housing Law Podcast, serves New York’s vanishing middle class, people who fall between legal aid and high-end representation. In each episode, she distills complex cases into practical takeaways, then makes something clear: the show is not a funnel, and listeners shouldn’t call her for representation. Drawing on Essentialism and legal project management principles, Michelle front-loads every engagement with a detailed written analysis outlining options, costs, timelines, and likelihood of success. The result is clarity, aligned expectations, and virtually no unhappy clients. Her story is a reminder that real growth in law isn’t about expansion, it’s about refinement.

Patrick McCormick didn’t start his career as a renowned international tax expert; he built that reputation by systematically teaching every complex concept he encountered. From nearly dropping out of law school after a grueling first year to authoring a treatise for Thomson Reuters, Patrick discovered that the fastest way to master a niche is to explain it to others. Today, he manages a high-level book of business at a multinational firm, proving that visibility is the byproduct of continuous, public learning. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Patrick to explore the "market what you learn" strategy that transformed his practice. They discuss Patrick’s journey from a suburban New Jersey boutique to Ramon Law, a firm spanning 12 countries, and how he uses speaking engagements at Lawline and other providers to stay ahead of seismic shifts in tax law. Patrick reveals the "small but significant" changes in the latest tax legislation and why he still reads hundred-page bills from cover to cover to maintain his edge. The conversation highlights why specialization, particularly in underserved areas like international and state-and-local tax, is the key to long-term security in an evolving legal market. Patrick offers a roadmap for attorneys looking to transition from "backroom work" to industry leadership through publishing and mentorship. As the legal landscape becomes more complex, Patrick’s story serves as a masterclass in turning specialized knowledge into a scalable professional brand.

Pralika Jain has built her career on bold pivots—from Bollywood media and entertainment in India to health tech, Twitter during Elon Musk’s acquisition, and now leading legal at an AI data company in New York. But her real transformation isn’t about industries. It’s about mindset. After years of watching lawyers chase perfection, Pralika embraced a different philosophy: stop taking yourself so seriously, stay curious, and build as you go. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Pralika to explore her journey from Georgetown LLM student learning to code to becoming the first Head of Legal at Hex, an AI analytics data platform. She shares what it was like to be the sole lawyer at a 160-person  SaaS startup, how she navigated the chaos of Twitter’s acquisition, and why sitting quietly in product meetings as a “fly on the wall” made her a better business partner. Pralika explains how she uses AI tools like Claude and Slack integrations to build internal playbooks, triage legal requests, and operate as a one-person legal team without burning out. Throughout the conversation, she challenges the legal profession’s obsession with perfection. Working hard isn’t enough. Growth requires agility, experimentation, and the courage to show up authentically—even if you don’t fit the traditional mold. For lawyers navigating AI disruption, in-house pressure, or career pivots, Pralika offers a powerful reminder: you don’t need to know everything to lead. You just need to stay curious, stay flexible, and keep building

After 18 years in corporate finance law, Heather Moulder had built exactly what success was supposed to look like — partner at Greenberg Traurig, thriving book of business, career on track. Then a breast cancer diagnosis at 38 forced her to stop and ask a question most high-achieving lawyers never let themselves ask: Is this actually the life I want? In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Heather to unpack a journey that started long before the diagnosis — the burnout four years into her career, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing, and the feeling of succeeding at something that was slowly draining her. Her return to the firm after treatment looked like a comeback. It was actually the beginning of something else. She spent years quietly reevaluating her values, training as a coach, and building a practice on the side before finally making the leap. She initially avoided working with lawyers — then found herself almost exclusively coaching them. Today, she works with attorneys on both mindset and business development, grounded in the belief that you simply cannot separate the two. Heather's story is a powerful reminder that burnout isn't weakness — it's often the clearest signal pointing toward the work you were always meant to do.

Jennifer Gillman built her recruiting career by doing something most recruiters avoid: telling lawyers not to leave. When partners complained about being underpaid, she dug into the numbers—sometimes discovering they could dramatically increase compensation elsewhere, and other times realizing they were already better off staying put. Same frustration. Completely different reality. That instinct to prioritize long-term happiness over short-term commission checks eventually reshaped her entire business. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Jennifer, founder of Gillman Strategic Group and author of The Happy Rainmaker, to explore her evolution from management-side employment attorney to trusted advisor for high-performing rainmakers. After 12 years in practice—and barely seeing her young child awake during the week—Jennifer made a bold pivot into recruiting. What started as a search for flexibility became a mission: helping lawyers avoid moves that create more stress, more friction, and less control. Now working with partners who can choose almost any firm, Jennifer focuses on one question: will this move actually improve your life? Through her Six Pillars framework, she challenges the assumption that more revenue equals more fulfillment. Instead, she argues that the happiest rainmakers build business intentionally, set boundaries confidently, and design careers that are both profitable and sustainable.

Lucie Allen's journey through legal education started with an accidental entry into IP protection during the dot-com boom and evolved into a leading growth strategy at one of the industry's most recognizable names. As Chief Growth Officer at BARBRI, she's helping transform a company known primarily for bar prep into something much bigger, a lifelong legal learning platform where bar prep no longer represents the majority of revenue. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how BARBRI is building what Lucie calls a "lifelong legal learning continuum" through strategic acquisitions like West Academic, Quimbee, Skillburst, and Stratford. The conversation reveals how the company is reimagining legal education from LSAT preparation through late-career professional development, operating in both mandatory CLE markets in the US and the UK's professional development landscape where continuing education isn't required. Lucie shares insights on navigating the AI revolution in education, including BARBRI's decision to hire its first Head of AI, a role dedicated largely to external innovation and improving how clients experience their products. She discusses the challenge of operating in "Horizon Two"—that experimental space between maintaining daily operations and pursuing an uncertain but necessary future. With refreshing honesty, she talks about the unique pressures women face in professional growth, from proving yourself in male-dominated sales environments to managing career ambition alongside motherhood, and even navigating menopause. The episode touches on everything from early sales training with video feedback to cold plunging in a garden tub, from Microsoft AI partnerships to Simon Sinek's infinite game philosophy. Lucie offers a candid look at the opportunities, challenges, and strategic thinking required to stay relevant when technology is reshaping everything.

Sarah Dray took a sick day from her Tel Aviv law firm to complete a freelance translation project, not because she was ill, but because that single job would pay more than her entire week's salary as a junior attorney. That pivotal moment crystallized a truth she'd been avoiding: the practical career path she'd followed since age 18 was leading somewhere she no longer wanted to go. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Sarah's journey from studying law in Hebrew, to building a thriving translation business that now handles high-stakes legal and financial documents for publicly traded companies. After immigrating to Israel for what was supposed to be a gap year, Sarah navigated law school while ultra-Orthodox and married at 19, juggling cultural expectations with an independent streak inherited from her Moroccan immigrant parents. Sarah's entrepreneurial evolution didn't stop with translations. During COVID, she co-founded a seven-figure e-commerce business selling VR headsets on Amazon, a venture born from scrolling TikTok while trapped at home. Her translation business has weathered AI disruption by pivoting from routine litigation work to complex financial documents that still require human expertise and formatting precision. Now, as she considers her next chapter, Sarah's contemplating a new mission: helping women entrepreneurs make the leap from zero to one, drawing from her own unconventional path of building multiple businesses while navigating motherhood during wartime in Israel.

Brendan Horgan learned a counterintuitive lesson as a young Navy judge advocate: the most effective arguments aren't delivered with fire and brimstone. Standing before decorated military officers as a third-year JAG, he discovered that matter-of-fact credibility beats theatrical passion every time, a principle that now guides his employment law practice at Hofheimer in Richmond, Virginia. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Brendan's evolution from University of Connecticut Law graduate who "just jumped in" to active duty JAG service, through five years prosecuting and defending courts martial, to building a thriving private practice while serving as a Navy Reserve judge advocate. After graduating in 2012 into a challenging legal market, Brendan took a recruiter's pitch and found himself in Newport, Rhode Island, preparing for a career he'd never considered—one that would give him courtroom experience most attorneys never achieve. Brendan's litigation philosophy rests on two principles: assume mistakes before malice, and find the hidden leverage point in every case that goes beyond the legal arguments. By giving people the benefit of the doubt and avoiding aggressive posturing from the start, he achieves faster settlements in employment disputes. His JAG experience,prosecuting service members with clean records while rotating between prosecutor, defense counsel, and advisor, taught him a crucial lesson: clients' problems are his to solve, not to carry on his shoulders. Beyond the courtroom, Brendan candidly discusses the "starfish method" of balancing work, family, and public service while coaching his kids' sports teams and maintaining his reserve commitment. His message: even with three children and a demanding practice, there's always room to serve—you just have to intentionally choose which areas get your focus at any given time.

Dan Warburton helps law firm owners increase profits by doing something counterintuitive: billing less while their teams bill more. His path here wasn't linear. After struggling to fit in throughout his youth, Dan spent years bouncing between ventures—earning a design degree, DJing across Europe, then literally knocking on 4,000 doors as "Super Dan the Handyman." When he scaled too fast with Team Super, a nine-person crew, the business collapsed under £100,000 in tax debt after his team couldn't deliver the work they'd promised In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how that failure became Dan's breakthrough. He pivoted to a 24-hour drainage business he could run from ski lifts across Europe, which led curious entrepreneurs to ask how he'd achieved that freedom. The answer lay in eight years of leadership training at Landmark Education. There, Dan traced his struggles back to a childhood moment when he was reprimanded for biting his brother's ear. He'd invented a story that he wasn't good enough, and recognizing this as invention rather than truth changed everything. Dan's framework centers on something law schools never teach: listening. Through weekly one-on-ones, he guides attorneys to build teams where people feel genuinely valued rather than driven. His clients learn to replace "how will I fit this in?" with "who can do this?"—a shift that helped one firm achieve a 392% revenue increase. Now Dan's pursuing the acquisition of a 65-person London law firm to implement everything he's taught, with plans to build a portfolio of practices. His journey proves that escaping the expert trap starts with confronting the stories you've been telling yourself since childhood.

Joe Green has spent the last several years building one of the most ambitious AI and innovation programs in BigLaw — not by chasing the hottest tools, but by asking harder questions about how law firms actually create value and what has to change for that to evolve. He knows the real transformation won't come from product launches or conference buzz. It'll happen when firms feel actual business pressure: fewer billable hours because work takes less time, or clients demanding new ways to buy legal services. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores both Joe's innovation work at Gunderson Dettmer and the winding path that got him there. After seven years as a transactional associate — first at Simpson Thacher and then at Gunderson Dettmer — Joe was a skilled deal lawyer who struggled to feel genuinely energized by the work. The demands of managing complex, fast-moving transactions occupied every corner of his mental bandwidth, leaving little room to envision what else he might want to do. Getting to a place where he could think clearly about what came next took years of deliberate effort. Writing changed everything. Joe discovered that co-authoring law review articles — something most practicing BigLaw lawyers never do — opened unexpected doors, eventually leading him to Practical Law at Thomson Reuters and then back to Gunderson in a completely reimagined role. Now he teaches startup/VC law at Penn Law, reads neuroscience books on his train commute, and thinks deeply about how AI will reshape legal training. His advice works for both innovation and careers: experiment with what interests you, stay ready to pivot, and trust that meaningful change rarely follows a straight line.

Lauren Hakala knew her path would be different the moment she heard a colleague gush about an incoming deal. They were having wine after work, and while the woman talked excitedly about her next deal, Lauren realized something crucial: she'd never felt that way about her own work, so it was time to find a different path. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Lauren transformed six years of corporate law experience at Cleary Gottlieb into a career helping law firm leaders manage their talent programs. As Senior Director of Global Learning at Reed Smith, she leads a 15-person team supporting lawyers across 30+ offices worldwide, designing programs on legal skills, business development, financial acumen, and leadership skills. Her journey included a pivotal stop at Practical Law during its US launch, where she worked alongside future legal innovators before Paul, Weiss took a chance on her, hiring her to make a pivot into professional development for its global transactional groups. Lauren introduces her "near pizza" concept: the difference between waiting in line with friends for the perfect slice versus pressing a button for delivery. Both get you pizza, but only one creates a meaningful experience. As GenAI makes legal work more efficient, she challenges the profession to preserve the friction that gives learning meaning—the stories, emotions, and human connections that build trust and that no algorithm can replace. Her approach uses technology to handle the basics so people can focus on what truly matters. Beyond her current role, Lauren spent over two years managing week-long Harvard Law Executive Training programs at her previous firm, learning strategy and financial literacy alongside lawyers. She's also accidentally met every New York City mayor since Giuliani, including her Park Slope neighbor Bill de Blasio.

Jason Levin wrote an entire book challenging a simple truth: we say "keep in touch" but really mean goodbye, so what if lawyers actually executed on those three words? For 15 years, he's trained new partners and practice groups on business development rooted in social science: the strength of weak ties, six degrees of separation, and the power of dormant connections. His message is simple but transformative—your casual relationships matter more than you think, and most attorneys ignore them completely. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Jason built his career teaching the one skill law schools never cover. His path started as a high school file clerk at a New Jersey law firm, because he was the babysitter for one of the firm’s partners.  She once told him, “If you can get my kids to bed on time, you can certainly handle our practice group’s files.” It was that early experience which solidified his interest in building relationships. Jason went on to an MBA at Georgetown University, spent five years in France following a Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship, led sales teams at Home - Vault selling to law firms, and eventually launched his own practice of training business development to attorneys, accountants, and executive search firms. The conversation reveals an unexpected vulnerability when Jason shares his ADHD diagnosis from three years ago. The kid who couldn't understand social cues in elementary school, who would blurt out comments five minutes too late, systematically taught himself active listening and relationship skills through social science research. By senior year of high school, he was voted most talkative. His philosophy of "let them say no" rejects the double rejection we create in our minds, showing how intentionality transforms networking from obligation into authentic connection.

For years working in Big Law business development at firms like Pillsbury, Sherman & Sterling (now A&O Shearman), and McDermott Will & Emery, Megan Senese thought attorneys had it all figured out. Then she left to co-found Stage, and lawyers started opening up about their real challenges: the same struggles with impossible demands and professional uncertainty she'd experienced herself. That realization didn't just change her perspective; it became the foundation for an entirely new approach to helping legal professionals grow their practices. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Megan built a business around what Big Law couldn't provide: dedicated, personalized support for individual attorneys. Stage offers fractional marketing and business development tailored to what actually works for each person, whether that's leaning into conferences for an energy regulatory lawyer or creating content strategies for someone who thrives behind the scenes rather than at networking events. Megan shares actionable frameworks that work. She applies Dr. Becky Kennedy's parenting concept of "the most generous interpretation" to transform how attorneys handle unanswered emails and perceived rejection. She draws on Dan Pink's insight that moving people beats selling them every time. Her cold outreach to the CMO of LinkedIn got an immediate yes. Her pitch to David landed this conversation. The approach is straightforward: pause long enough to understand what someone actually needs, then show them why connecting serves their interests. The conversation reveals Megan's own transformation from someone who would've never imagined entrepreneurship to co-founder of a thriving firm. When her partner put "IDEA - don't be nervous" on her Friday calendar more than three years ago, it launched a journey of redefining success on their own terms, proving that sustainable growth comes from doing work you genuinely love with people you genuinely want to help.

Tony Gerdes taught his students something unforgettable: "I can't steer a parked car." The metaphor captures his entire philosophy about professional development. You need to give him something to work with, show a willingness to try, and then he can help steer you toward growth. As Director of Professional Development at Groom Law Group, Tony brings this mindset to approximately 100 attorneys in Washington, DC, combining his theater background with a unique career journey through accounting and legal software training. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Tony's diverse background shapes his approach to attorney development. After leaving classroom teaching when he realized he was "doing the same lessons over and over," Tony discovered that being a good teacher requires being a continual learner. He applies this principle at Groom by establishing clear expectations through written documents, providing timely feedback that actually drives improvement, and workshopping associate writing samples each month. Tony's journey includes an unexpected lesson from early in his career: be careful of people claiming 30 years of experience. They might just be repeating the same year 30 times. This insight fuels his commitment to constant evolution, whether developing new workshops or balancing AI adoption with client preferences and responsible implementation. The conversation reveals Tony's philosophy that life isn't about reaching point B. It's about enjoying the dance itself, a perspective shaped by rejection from a professional theater audition that ultimately led him to direct and star in independent films while building a fulfilling career helping lawyers grow.

What happens when someone who loved reading for pleasure but actively avoided leadership books finally cracks one open — and realizes she'd been doing everything wrong? For Michele Richman, that moment didn't just change how she led. It set off a chain reaction that's now reshaping how legal professionals grow, connect, and lead. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with his sister Michele Richman, Chief People Officer at Lawline, certified coach, triathlete, and soon-to-be published author, for a candid conversation about the mentors, mindset shifts, and pivotal moments behind her rise as one of the legal industry's most compelling voices on leadership development. Michele traces her journey from resisting self-improvement books, because engaging with them meant confronting feelings of inadequacy she'd buried for years, to being transformed first by a leadership coach named Mark Green, then by Dale Carnegie and Brene Brown’s teachings, The final shift came during a pandemic-era group coaching session led by Frame of Mind Coach Kim Ades that cracked her open and changed her focus to the power of her thoughts and beliefs, as well as her vulnerability, for achieving her goals. She earned her coaching certification, built Lawline's Emerging Leaders program, and watched it generate over twelve internal promotions. From there, she took it external, speaking at legal conferences and launching a leadership empowerment program for the professionals who train and develop talent inside law firms. Her upcoming book, The Stories We Almost Don't Tell, captures the belief driving all of it: the stories we're most reluctant to share are often the most important ones to tell and the ones that help others the most.

Steven Harber's path to legal tech started in an unexpected place: selling Japanese robots to automotive factories in 1985. Fresh out of Bucknell with an East Asian studies degree and zero job prospects, he stumbled into a role that taught him the power of eliminating waste from processes. That lesson from Toyota's manufacturing philosophy would later become the foundation for three successful legal technology companies. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Harber's journey from New York Law School graduate to serial legal tech entrepreneur. After practicing law for barely a year, Harber raised his hand when his small firm needed someone with sales experience to commercialize their early document scanning technology. That decision launched a 30-year career, though not without self-doubt about whether he was pivoting because he wasn't good enough at law. Harber's philosophy challenges the Silicon Valley playbook. He calls himself a conservative entrepreneur who built profitable services businesses solving real problems rather than chasing unicorn status. But the journey was far from smooth.Navigating through the Lehman bankruptcy and dealing with challenging owners made for some very long days Today, as Executive Chairman of Cimplifi, Harber is pushing the industry toward fixed-fee AI review. His core belief, drawn from The Old Man and the Sea: you don't have to go out too far to succeed.

Matthew Galando never intended to build a 23-year career at one law firm. As a college student interning at K&L Gates, he quickly realized that while practicing law wasn’t his path, the legal industry itself was. What began as a legal administrative assistant role evolved into leading professional development for a global team of 13—shaping lawyers’ growth from a perspective grounded in strategy, talent, and organizational leadership. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Matt's unexpected journey shaped his leadership philosophy at K&L Gates. His approach centers on compassionate leadership, a concept that might seem counterintuitive in the legal world, but one Matt believes is essential because "the hardest lawyer is still a human being at the end of the day." Matt's transformation evolved by overcoming his default response of "no" after learning more about growth mindset. Now he approaches requests with "what if" thinking, opening possibilities while maintaining thoughtful boundaries. His work spans leadership development programming at every level, from high-potential managers to lateral partners, always emphasizing strategic relationship-building and fundamental skills enhanced by humanity. Drawing from his lifelong music career as a trumpet player who sits first chair in musicals and ensembles, Matt applies performance lessons to professional development: teamwork, adaptability, and the pursuit of polish – knowing that precision matters most when the spotlight is on. Whether he's reading Adam Grant or Kim Scott, his message remains consistent–lead with compassion, default to possibility, and remember that caring for your team comes first.

At 40, Chris Keefer had everything lawyers are supposed to want: partner track, jury trial wins, Indiana Supreme Court experience. He also had something else—a growing certainty that litigation was slowly crushing him. When the celebration after his biggest courtroom victory felt hollow, he knew something had to change. So he made a decision that seemed crazy to everyone around him: sell the house, move his family of five to Oregon, and spend 18 months earning a master's degree in sports product management. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Chris discovered that law school never taught him the one thing he needed most—how to be an entrepreneur. His journey from the University of Oregon back to legal practice wasn't a straight line. It included living apart from his wife Garetta and three young kids for a year, sitting face-to-face with her in a WeWork fishbowl managing a fledgling solo practice, and experiencing panic attacks while their savings dwindled. The turning point came from a couple unexpected sources: a coffee meeting with a colleague trying to understand the types of services Chris was providing, and then a book called Toothfish that taught him to stop competing in crowded markets and create his own. Those insights led Chris to "preventive law"—a framework for helping businesses peek around corners before legal problems materialize. But his real breakthrough was realizing that entrepreneurs who need legal help most can't afford traditional hourly rates. His solution became The Legal Wellness Kit, an Amazon #1 new release and bestseller that delivers hundreds of hours of practical guidance for the cost of a brief phone call with a big firm attorney. Today, as Associate General Counsel at Pacific Seafood and principal of Keefer Strategy, Chris continues building his practice while eyeing his next chapter: more writing, more teaching, and paying forward the knowledge he wished he'd had at the start. His story reveals that mid-career reinvention requires more than courage—it demands partnership, resilience, and the willingness to get comfortable being uncomfortable even when everything feels uncertain.    

Stacey had it all—managing $300-500 million brands as a marketing and advertising executive, traveling the world, leading teams. Then in her mid-thirties, she walked away from that successful career to attend law school full-time. Her colleagues thought she was crazy. For Stacey, law school felt like a vacation compared to her 80-90 hour work weeks. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Stacey's journey from brand management executive to founder of Kalamaras Law Office and later as creator of Trademarkabilities, a practical trademark training academy that has served over 200 attorneys. After working with trademark lawyers in her corporate role, Stacey realized she agreed more with the attorneys than her marketing colleagues, a revelation that sparked her midlife career pivot. Stacey's path wasn't linear. She started her first firm in 2009 after being laid off during the recession, moved in-house, then returned to Big Law again before finally restarting her firm intentionally in 2018 when her mother needed more care. The turning point came when her practical, business-focused teaching style on Lawline attracted thousands of lawyers, and clients started reaching out saying, "My attorney told me I had to watch your course." Her philosophy centers on one powerful truth: "No one is coming to save you." Whether you work for yourself or someone else, you must be your own cheerleader and self-promoter. Stacey reflects that losing two jobs in three years might have broken her at 29, but by her 40s, the business experience she gained earlier in life helped her rebuild her legal career with confidence—and with a strong sense of how to serve clients and their brands.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Steve Gluckman, a pioneer in legal e-learning who recently sold his company SkillBurst Interactive to Barbri. Though not a lawyer himself, Steve has spent over two decades developing innovative training solutions for law firms. Steve shares his entrepreneurial journey from his early days at PwC to founding SkillBurst in 2013, which created customizable, interactive e-learning modules for law firms. He discusses the challenges of timing in business innovation, explaining how his first attempt at legal e-learning was too early for market adoption, but years later the industry was ready, leading to SkillBurst's success. The conversation explores the post-acquisition emotional journey many entrepreneurs face, with Steve candidly discussing the unexpected emptiness he felt after selling his company. He reflects on how much of his identity was wrapped up in being a CEO and the process of figuring out "what's next" while already working on a new stealth-mode venture. Throughout the episode, Steve offers valuable insights into building a successful business in the legal tech space, including his approach to product development, the importance of securing buy-in before building, and how making products "sticky" through customization led to impressive client retention rates. The discussion wraps up with thoughts on leadership and work-life balance, with both hosts sharing their perspectives on building businesses that create personal freedom.  

Amy Woods failed her very first IOLTA audit. Fresh out of school with a master's in accounting, she thought she had everything in order for her lawyer client, until an auditor named Bruno sat her down and explained she was looking at trust accounts like an accountant when the bar wanted something entirely different. That moment of failure became the foundation for a 20-year specialization in an area where 99% of law firms aren't in full compliance. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Amy transformed repeated failures into expertise, building IOLTA Consulting to help attorneys navigate trust account regulations that weren't taught in law school. Working across multiple states, Amy has never walked into a single law firm doing everything correctly—not one. From real estate wire fraud to simple recording errors that snowball into thousand-dollar problems, she's seen how easily well-intentioned attorneys can face suspension or worse for mistakes they didn't know they were making. Amy's vision extends beyond compliance fixes. She's building a team to provide coast-to-coast support while she travels to speak and educate, turning a niche accounting service into a scalable business model with monthly subscriptions and strategic growth plans. The conversation takes a vulnerable turn when Amy shares why she recently shifted her two youngest children from homeschooling to traditional school—her husband's epilepsy diagnosis and the need to prepare financially for an uncertain future. Her story demonstrates how personal challenges can sharpen professional focus, transforming specialized knowledge into both security and service for an underserved legal community.

Kenton Brice sits at the center of what he calls "a massive Venn diagram"—law libraries, legal technology, higher education, and the practicing bar—and from that unique vantage point, he sees something most people miss: law schools have zero incentive to change. With three powerful forces keeping the status quo locked in place (U.S. News rankings, ABA accreditation, and unlimited student loans), traditional legal education persists even as the profession transforms around it. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Kenton's vision for reimagining legal education at the University of Oklahoma College of Law, where he directs the law library and runs the Digital Initiative—a 12-year experiment in building technology competencies outside the required curriculum. Through Tuesday and Thursday lunch-and-learns, conference trips, and hands-on workshops, Kenton prepares students for a profession where managed service organizations are disrupting traditional firm structures and AI is forcing a complete rethinking of legal service delivery. The conversation moves from practical questions about preserving legal materials in a digital age to provocative ideas about trashing the bar exam entirely. His blueprint for building a law school from scratch prioritizes design-oriented curiosity over doctrinal mastery, AI-infused hybrid learning over traditional lectures, and two years of intensive study over three years of diminishing returns. But Kenton's real passion emerges in his vision for the "holistic lawyer." Beyond competencies and technology, he wants lawyers who see themselves as protectors of democracy, not just service providers. When 78% of people can't access the civil justice system and a single mother facing eviction can't find representation, Kenton asks the fundamental question: can we make money and serve people at the same time? His answer, drawn from his men's reading group discussions of Man's Search for Meaning and his weekend woodworking projects, is an emphatic yes—if we're willing to reimagine the profession entirely.

When Jennifer Rakstad's firm surveyed their associates, the feedback was clear: traditional training wasn't having the impact they wanted. As Senior Manager of Learning and Development at White & Case, Jennifer worked hand in hand with a committee of partners to lead the creation of Momentum—a three-day immersive program that's already reached 350 lawyers. What makes it different: every session is designed and taught by the firm's own partners and senior associates, for a true “lawyer-led” experience. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Jennifer's path from litigation to professional development. After applying to 200 judges for clerkships with over a dozen interviews and receiving zero offers, Jennifer regrouped with a targeted approach that landed her a federal clerkship in Puerto Rico. Seven years into litigation practice at Mayer Brown, a colleague noticed her passion for firm initiatives and recruiting work, asking if she'd consider pivoting entirely. That conversation led to her becoming one of the first ICF-certified coaches in a law firm. The Momentum program represents a major investment, taking associates offsite for three days with full partner faculty involvement. The program creates cohort experiences where associates learn from partners who've been in the trenches, with plans to have participants eventually teach each other. Jennifer also shares how a fractured ankle during a family trip to Japan transformed her perspective on accessibility challenges. Despite doctors suggesting she fly home, she completed two more weeks in Japan on crutches, followed by two months in a wheelchair. That experience reinforced the empathy that drives her work developing lawyers.

Sarah Ennor spent years as a securities lawyer at major banks, excelling at sophisticated legal work but challenged by corporate politics and what she sometimes thought was lack of motivation and discipline. In 2015, she left corporate law, traveled to Sri Lanka for a 10-day silent meditation retreat, worked and lived on a New Zealand winery, and returned to launch her own legal practice. But running a solo practice without corporate infrastructure proved unexpectedly overwhelming, until a stranger at a cocktail party asked if she had ADHD. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Sarah's journey from that eye-opening conversation to formal diagnosis, and ultimately to becoming a sought-after speaker who makes ADHD "human and profitable" for law firms and their attorneys, and corporations. Sarah reveals why lawyers are drawn to the profession's constant urgency and novel problems (the very dopamine hits that ADHD brains crave) while also explaining why law firms often punish the behaviors that come with the condition. When she finally tried medication, the fog lifted and she realized she'd been working ten times harder than necessary. She now helps firms move beyond surface-level awareness to create genuinely supportive environments through curiosity and outcome-focused thinking. This conversation goes beyond the "ADHD as superpower" narrative to honestly address the disability many face and the transformative power of self-compassion over discipline. These insights resonate deeply even for those still navigating their own undiagnosed experiences.

Yeve Chitiga immigrated to the United States at sixteen with clear goals shaped by hope and determination: college, law school, becoming an attorney. She followed that path, working in banking in London and later as a corporate lawyer at a top firm, reaching milestones that surpassed her wildest dreams. Along the way, a quieter inner question began to surface about meaning, contribution, and alignment. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Yeve’s journey from financial services attorney to career transition coach for high-achieving professionals in demanding environments. Raised in Zimbabwe, Yeve grew up in a culture rooted in connection where there are no strangers, only extended family. That deep belief in belonging now shapes the heart of her coaching work. Rather than one dramatic turning point, Yeve’s story is marked by a series of moments that invited reflection and realignment across different chapters of her life. Each asked the same essential question: What kind of impact do I want to make? Over time, the answer softened and clarified—meaningful, human-scale impact through one-on-one connection. Motherhood deepened this shift, reshaping success into presence, listening, and moments like when her little one says, “Mommy, I love that you just listened to me.” Then a career shift allowed her to fully embrace pivoting from law to coaching. The conversation weaves through boundaries, faith, cultural expectations, and Yeve’s vision for an intimate retreat at Victoria Falls, one of the world’s most awe-inspiring natural wonders. With its rising mist, roaming wildlife, and expansive sunsets, Victoria Falls becomes both a setting and an invitation: to slow down, reconnect, and rediscover parts of ourselves often lost in the pace of everyday life.

Noah Waisberg left Weil Gotshal without a company, without a plan, and without knowing if the technology would work. For two and a half years, the AI kept failing. There was zero revenue, a newborn at home, and mounting financial stress. Then his co-founder finally cracked it. They bootstrapped to 100 employees before raising $50 million, then pulled off one of the most creative exits in legal tech by selling while keeping 30 people and launching a new company as a spin-out. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Noah's philosophy that you become your best self through challenge, not comfort. As a junior associate at Weil, Noah watched lawyers bill hundreds of dollars an hour for repetitive contract review work they hated and weren't particularly good at. He saw an opportunity for disruption even before legal tech was a defined category. Noah shares the brutal reality of those early years: meeting four computer science PhDs at a Starbucks, choosing his co-founder, then watching month after month as their AI simply didn't work. His candor about going from a well-paying BigLaw job to financial stress with a newborn offers a rare glimpse into what bootstrapping actually costs. The conversation reveals how Noah became an expert at selling efficiency technology to hourly billing lawyers, navigating the paradox that making lawyers faster doesn't automatically reduce client bills. Whether discussing his children's book on AI, his Wall Street Journal bestselling book, or his creative deal structure, Noah proves that challenging yourself and being willing to face years of uncertainty can lead to outcomes you never imagined.