Melody or Witchcraft

Two quick little blips that add to the conversation. In the first, we muse together some more about dream stuff. In the second, Kelli reveals a very special and unique element within her new book, Accidental Devotions. The book’s launch date is May 12, 2026. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Kelli Russell Agodon‘s next book Accidental Devotions will be published by Copper Canyon Press in May 2026. Her previous collection, Dialogues with Rising Tides, was a finalist for the Washington State Book Awards. Kelli is the cofounder of Two Sylvias Press and teaches in Pacific Lutheran University’s MFA program, the Rainier Writing Workshop. She is also the cohost of the poetry series Poems You Need with Melissa Studdard.If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.Best Witchcraft is GeometryTo the magician’s mind –His ordinary acts are featsTo thinking of mankind.Fact Check:I called the religious fervor that dominated Dickinson’s era the “Second Great Revival” – it’s more commonly referred to as the “Second Great Awakening.” Here’s one place to find out more. And here’s Wikipedia’s version.A fuller version and citation for a quote I referenced: “How do most people live without any thoughts. There are so many people in the world (you must have noticed them in the street) How do they live. How do they get strength to put on their clothes in the morning.” (L342A, August 1870; T.W. Higginson quoting Emily Dickinson in letter to his wife)Kelli and I were both a bit off on the “I’m out with ‘lamps’…” quote. It’s “I’m out with lanterns looking for myself.” That line comes from a letter Dickinson wrote during the time the family was moving back to the Homestead from the house they lived in when she was 9-25 years old. The house sat not far from the Main Street Homestead on North Pleasant Street, Amherst. (It no longer exists.) She was not pleased about the move at the time. She also would not get in a carriage but walked while their belongings were being transferred. Here’s more of the context the quote comes from—she’s likening it to a funeral procession and being her rye self in the process: “I cannot tell you how we moved. I had rather not remember. I believe my ‘effects’ were brought in a bandbox, and the ‘deathless me,’ on foot, not many moments after. I took at the time a memorandum of my several senses, and also of my hat and coat, and my best shoes - but it was lost in the melee, and I am out with lanterns, looking for myself.” (Letter 182, January 20, 1856 to Elizabeth Holland)I comment that Adrienne Rich “was talking about” Emily & Susan possibly being romantically involved back in the 70s. (Or, more specifically, she talks about how ignoring that possibility has stunted our interpretations of ED’s genius.) Rich’s article from 1975, “Vesuvius at Home: The Power of Emily Dickinson,” can be found here. In the article, Rich talks about many important aspects of how Dickinson was—and in some respects still is—portrayed and the damage it does. Here is a bit from early in the article:Virtually all criticism of this poet’s work suffers from the literary and historical silence and secrecy surrounding intense woman to woman relationships—a central element in Dickinson’s life and art; and by the assumption that she was asexual or heterosexually “sublimated.”... [L]esbian/feminist criticism has the power to illuminate the work of any woman artist, beyond proving her a “practicing lesbian” or not. Such a criticism will ask questions hitherto passed over; will not search obsessively for heterosexual romance as the key to a woman artist’s life and work; will ask how she came to be for herself and how she identified with and was able to use women’s culture, a women’s tradition; and what the presence of other women meant in her life.Books referenced:The Gorgeous Nothings by Marta L. Werner and Jen Bervin. Here is a page with the book/stats on the book. Here’s a lovely page with a bit more about it and nice representation of some of the scans.The Envelope Poems is the small, abbreviated version of Dickinson’s poems on scraps.Other Dickinson poems referenced:Forever – is composed of – NowsThe Poets light but Lamps—“Forever might be short” that Kelli mentioned as her opening quote is from this one:To love thee Year by Year —May less appearThan sacrifice, and cease —However, dear,Forever might be short, I thought to show —And so I pieced it, with a flower, now.People mentioned:Thomas Wentworth HigginsonElizabeth BishopWalt Whitman(Sylvia) PlathRick BarotEdna St. Vincent Millay(Rainer Maria) RilkeSusan Huntington Gilbert DickinsonMartha “Marty” SilanoKelli talks about correspondences of writers that we have and notes the “Bishop to Lowell” letters. Go to the link to learn about the book Words in Air: The Complete Correspondence between Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Lowell.Terrance Hayes The link will take you to a Britannica article about him which I picked because you can see him wearing two watches in the picture.Linda Bierds (University of Washington)(Jack) KerouacLangston HughesJane HirshfieldPlaces & other references:Sylvia Beach Hotel’s Emily Dickinson Room that Kelli mentions staying in when writing her earlier book, seems to have been a victim of progress. There are still seven author-themed rooms in the newly branded “Hotel Sylvia” – Maya Angelou and Agatha Christie among them, but things look a bit more standardized. And poor Em doesn’t seem to have made the cut at all.Some background on the Anything that Moves magazine.The Burren is an area in County Clare, in the west of Ireland known for its unusual landscape of dissolving and porous limestone.Maria Popova’s article about Emily & Sue’s letters can be found here. (Small note: in it, Popova mentions Susan and Austin marrying in the “fall,” however, they were married July 1st (1856)). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Dr. Victoria Kennefick is a writer, poet, editor and teacher who lives in Tralee, Co. Kerry (Ireland). She completed a PhD in Irish and American Literature at University College Cork and was a Fulbright Scholar at Emory University. Her debut collection, Eat or We Both Starve (Carcanet Press, 2021), won the Seamus Heaney First Collection Poetry Prize and the Dalkey Book Festival Emerging Writer of the Year Award. It was shortlisted for the T.S. Eliot Prize, the Costa Poetry Book Award, Derek Walcott Prize for Poetry and the Butler Literary Prize. Her second collection, Egg/Shell (Carcanet Press, 2024) was a Poetry Book Society Choice for Spring 2024 and won the Farmgate Café National Poetry Prize 2025. She was the 2025 Arts Council of Ireland/Trinity College Dublin Writer Fellow.If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.Another quick note: The formatting of Dana Levin’s poem from Episode 7 was incorrect and now has been corrected. I cannot live with You – It would be Life – And Life is over there – Behind the ShelfThe Sexton keeps the Key to – Putting upOur Life – His Porcelain – Like a Cup –Discarded of the Housewife – Quaint – or Broke – A newer Sevres pleases – Old Ones crack –I could not die – with You – For One must waitTo shut the Other’s Gaze down – You – could not –And I – could I stand byAnd see You – freeze – Without my Right of Frost – Death’s privilege?Nor could I rise – with You – Because Your FaceWould put out Jesus’ – That New GraceGlow plain – and foreignOn my homesick Eye – Except that You than HeShone closer by –They’d judge Us – How – For You – served Heaven – You know,Or sought to – I could not –Because You saturated Sight – And I had no more EyesFor sordid excellenceAs ParadiseAnd were You lost, I would be – Though My NameRang loudestOn the Heavenly fame –And were You – saved – And I – condemned to beWhere You were not – That self – were Hell to Me –So We must meet apart – You there – I – here – With just the Door ajarThat Oceans are – and Prayer – And that White Sustenance – Despair –Valentine Poem for my ValentineVictoria KennefickSurely by now, you must be familiarwith my heart’s alarming habits – how itexpands beyond the parameters of its rusty cage.How lumps of its slick muscle push throughthe bars in such an unsightly manner – all shinyand hot. I am ashamed of its size and hungeryet still try to offer you its bloody chambers.At times, I quickly shove it in your pocket or satchelwhen you’re not looking. Others, I sneak itinto your tin cigarette box, or lob it into the bootof your car as you drive away from me back to the city(What am I to do?). Sometimes, I even manageto balance it on the tiny freckle tuckedinto the palm of your hand. I’ve secreted itinto envelopes, Friday night dinners, and maybe eveninto poems where it thumps clumsily behindtangible descriptions trying to mask its ooze and bulk.I have tried to hide the lumbering oaf that is my heart, like this –thinking you would find it and see how careless I am with it.How free. Oh! What a grift – because here I must come clean.I have wanted to tell you how desiccated it was.How it had been shrunk to the size of a screw top –dry and crumbling – I never, ever wanted to use it again.Do you understand? I thought I was dead and my pulsethe sound of pebbles caving in on my chest like a grave.I didn’t think it would be painful letting it grow againto the size of the whole world, that it would become a planetlike this, that it would be where you live.People & concepts mentioned:The Master LettersVictoria’s mention of Walt Whitman “shouting at the traffic”perhaps came from here: “Beat! beat! drums!--blow! bugles! blow! / Over the traffic of cities--over the rumble of wheels in the streets…” (from “Beat! Beat! Drums!”)I make reference to the idea that Emily’s brother Austin “wanted to be planting trees.” From emilydickinsonmuseum.org: “Emily Dickinson came from a family of nature lovers. Her mother, Emily Norcross, was an avid gardener who passed on her skills to her daughters, Emily and Lavinia. The poet’s brother Austin shared her extensive knowledge of and delight in the natural world. While a student at Amherst College, Austin’s life-long interest in landscape design was sparked by the lectures of Edward Hitchcock about the careful landscaping of European cities and towns. As Treasurer of Amherst College (1873-1895), Austin Dickinson took particular pleasure in landscaping of the College grounds, cultivating at the same time a close relationship with prominent landscape architects Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert Vaux. He later led the effort to drain and beautify the town common, and spearheaded the drive to form a new style of park-like cemetery in Amherst after the fashion of Mt. Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge.”Victoria mentions Seamus Heaney’s first book, Death of a Naturalist, and the iconic Heaney poem “Digging”The “reverend” Victoria refers to would be Charles Wadsworth, whom Dickinson met in her one venture outside the state of Massachusetts in 1855 where he was preaching in Philadelphia. She apparently fell quite hard for him and there’s some evidence (an unannounced visit to the Homestead etc.) that the feeling was mutual. However, he was already married. Some believe Wadsworth may be the “master” of the Master Letters.(W.B.) Yeats(William) Wordsworth“Learning Cert” refers to the final exams required of secondary school students in Ireland.(Patrick) KavanaughSylvia PlathOther Dickinson poems mentioned:“Faith” is a fine inventionFor Gentlemen who see!But Microscopes are prudentIn an Emergency!Recorded February 12, 2026.Thank you for taking the time to repost, review, comment, and share!New workshop opportunity: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Dana Levin is the author of five books poetry. Her latest is Now Do You Know Where You Are (Copper Canyon), a 2022 New York Times Notable Book and NPR “Book We Love.” Levin teaches for the Bennington Writing Seminars, the MFA program at Bennington College, and serves as Distinguished Writer in Residence at Maryville University in St. Louis. Her first book of prose, House of Feels, comes out from Graywolf Press in 2027.If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.I felt a Funeral, in my Brain,And Mourners to and froKept treading - treading - till it seemedThat Sense was breaking through -And when they all were seated,A Service, like a Drum -Kept beating - beating - till I thoughtMy mind was going numb -And then I heard them lift a BoxAnd creak across my SoulWith those same Boots of Lead, again,Then Space - began to toll,As all the Heavens were a Bell,And Being, but an Ear,And I, and Silence, some strange Race,Wrecked, solitary, here -And then a Plank in Reason, broke,And I dropped down, and down -And hit a World, at every plunge,And Finished knowing - then -Among the wild number of musical versions of “I felt a Funeral in my Brain” is my favorite and one done in collaboration with the museum: Andrew Bird’s song/music video for “I felt a Funeral in my Brain” (ft. Phoebe Bridgers)Happily, you can watch the full video (!) of the brilliant talk for the Emily Dickinson Museum that Dana did with Ayelet Amitay (“The Interior and the Other,” about the intersection of poetry and psychotheraphy) that Dana references in our conversation.People and concepts mentioned in the interview:American Gothic fictionEdgar Allan PoeMabel Loomis ToddJesse Kavadlo, Rock of Pages.Paradise Lost, John MiltonBrian Teare & Albion BooksKatie Peterson’s review of Dana’s book Sky BurialMary GaitskillFact Check:The insane asylum that Dana mentioned was in Northampton – a few miles away from Amherst. Here is a little bit about it.A more complete version of a quote I mention: “Pardon my sanity, Mrs. Holland, in a world insane, and love me if you will, for I had rather be loved than to be called a king in earth, or a lord in Heaven.” Letter 185 to Elizabeth Holland, from August 1856(?)Another quote mentioned was “God keep me from what they call households.” Here’s the fuller context-- “My kitchen I think I called it, God forbid that it was, or shall be my own – God keep me from what they call households, except that bright one of ‘faith’!” Letter 36 to Abiah Root, May 1850.Recorded February 4, 2026.Thank you for taking the time to like, repost, review, and comment on the show! oxAn upcoming workshop: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Season Two is almost here! I’m in LOVE with what these esteemed guests had to say and I hope you will be, too. The trailer above should give you a nice teaser as to what kind of craziness and beauty to anticipate. In this world? Who’s going to turn down LOVE?How do you feel about the big corporations? The soon-to-be trillionaires that push around power? Oh yeah? Hmm. Me too. This kind of programming is its antithesis. Support creative work. Listen and subscribe! Thank you! April 20: “poetry as an endurance technology” My talk with Dana includes conversation about psychological states of being, our society’s allowance (or not) for the range of them, chosen solitude, marrying the Muse...Dana Levin is the author of five books poetry. Her latest is Now Do You Know Where You Are (Copper Canyon), a 2022 New York Times Notable Book and NPR “Book We Love.” Levin teaches for the Bennington Writing Seminars, the MFA program at Bennington College, and serves as Distinguished Writer in Residence at Maryville University in St. Louis. Her first book of prose, House of Feels, comes out from Graywolf Press in 2027.April 27: “the sensitive heart” Victoria goes deep into how to navigate the world as mostly nervous system, what poetry can hold safe for us, and the joys and pitfalls of new love…Dr. Victoria Kennefick is a writer, poet, editor and teacher who lives in Tralee, Co. Kerry (Ireland). She completed a PhD in Irish and American Literature at University College Cork and was a Fulbright Scholar at Emory University. Her debut collection, Eat or We Both Starve (Carcanet Press, 2021), won the Seamus Heaney First Collection Poetry Prize and the Dalkey Book Festival Emerging Writer of the Year Award. It was shortlisted for the T.S. Eliot Prize, the Costa Poetry Book Award, Derek Walcott Prize for Poetry and the Butler Literary Prize. Her second collection, Egg/Shell (Carcanet Press, 2024) was a Poetry Book Society Choice for Spring 2024 and won the Farmgate Café National Poetry Prize 2025. She was the 2025 Arts Council of Ireland/Trinity College Dublin Writer Fellow.May 4: “led by the dead” Kelli and I kick up our heels to chat about loved ones on the other side, Emily and Susan, the encroachment of technology in our everyday, refusing to check a box...Kelli Russell Agodon‘s next book Accidental Devotions will be published by Copper Canyon Press in May 2026. Her previous collection, Dialogues with Rising Tides, was a finalist for the Washington State Book Awards. Kelli is the cofounder of Two Sylvias Press and teaches in Pacific Lutheran University’s MFA program, the Rainier Writing Workshop. She is also the cohost of the poetry series Poems You Need with Melissa Studdard.May 11: “filling in the gaps” Matt shares amazing stories about what came out of his collaborative art installment at the Dickinson Museum, the strangeness of wanting to know another, and how we build stories and lives from small but significant artifacts…Matt Donovan is the author most recently of We Are Not Where We Are (Bull City Press, 2025) which was co-authored with Jenny George, and The Dug-Up Gun Museum (BOA 2022). He is the recipient of a Whiting Award, a Rome Prize in Literature, a Pushcart Prize, and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. Donovan serves as the director of the Boutelle-Day Poetry Center at Smith College.May 18: “a velocity in the language” Camille gets into the moment she went from rolling her eyes at the idea of Dickinson to being a lifelong devotee, scientific language and paths not taken, what happens when reading the past is problematic... Camille T. Dungy is the author of America, A Love Story, Soil: The Story of a Black Mother’s Garden, and five other books of poetry and prose. She has edited three anthologies, including Black Nature: Four Centuries of African American Nature Poetry. Dungy is currently a University Distinguished Professor at Colorado State University.May 25: “keeping it wild” Gaby has lots to say about bees and trains and trains and bees, Emily as the perfect figure for the (changing) moment in time she lived in, why stages aren’t that cool, who we need to read right now that can teach us not to look away…Gabrielle Calvocoressi’s new collection of poetry, The New Economy, was a finalist for the 2025 National Book Award in Poetry. Other collections include The Last Time I Saw Amelia Earhart, Apocalyptic Swing, and Rocket Fantastic, which is the winner of the Audre Lorde Award for Lesbian Poetry. They serve on the Board of Chancellors of the Academy of American Poets and live in Old East Durham, NC, where joy, compassion, and social justice are at the center of their personal and poetic practice.If you have been enjoying the podcast, you can support the work I do here in a variety of ways. Rate the podcast on whatever platform you listen on. Comment! Like! Share! If you are reading on Substack, take a quick second to hit that like heart, or if you have more time, comment and restack. The void is big and I am small. Let me know you are out there. You can also consider joining up as a paid subscriber. The monthly payment is the cost of a coffee & a croissant and will get you access to extras like the upcoming workshops on May 3 & June 7, and ensure that I can keep things rolling in this independent endeavor. Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

GroundwaterTacey M. AtsittyIt was the Christmas my sister’s hamsters went missing from their cage. Santa had just brought Kisses and Fatso only two nights prior. The cage was knocked over, but we didn’t put two and two together until her cat Mushy came out of hiding a few hours later. I mean, we weren’t for sure, but we suspected. And my sister just cried. Though we were young, we were no strangers to death. It didn’t help that we were so close to it all the time. Just over the small wall to the east of our house sat a funeral home: Chapel of Memories. The deluge of trucks and cars coming and going from next door and even in front of our house became so common place we hardly noticed it anymore. Someone—we learned—was always grieving. I once snuck past the funeral doors during someone’s family gathering for their dearly departed. I wanted to walk the room with empty coffins. I knew exactly where to go because I had been there a few weeks prior, at my dad’s side, picking out the coffin for my uncle. I was a planner, and I wanted to pick out my own. I sauntered past the high-end ones, not because they were too expensive, but because they simply weren’t me. And they were outdated. At one point, I remember hearing several women howling in the next room over. I knew their grief. Waves stirred and swelled within me. Part of me wanted to join them, but— there it was: a human-sized cedar box with a lacquer so clear it could’ve been hard candy. The coffin had Native designs burned into its sides, but the workmanship on it was just ok. I ran my fingers along the burnt edges, the tips picking up ash— though that coffin most appealed to me because it was lined with Pendleton wool fabric, I decided against it because it was too flashy. So, I went with the plainest of plain wooden boxes. In that one, I knew I’d be lying closest to the earth and all her water.In this clip, I mention another house other than the Homestead that Dickinson lived in where her room overlooked the graveyard. Though she was born in the Homestead on Main Street that her grandfather built, from the age of 9 to 24, Emily lived in a home on North Pleasant Street in Amherst that no longer exists. In 1855, her father having purchased the Homestead back into the family and made renovations to it reflecting the style of the times as well as the message that the Dickinsons were again a family of significant standing in the community, they moved back. Emily was none pleased at the time with this move, but it would coincide with the start, in earnest, of her writing years.Thank you so much for coming along for season one of Melody or Witchcraft! Hey! You made it not only to the last episode of season one, here you are at the final bonus bit! You make it worthwhile! And I wouldn’t steer you wrong—these poets are the best. I’d love your help to keep things going. Why not upgrade to a paid subscription? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

This is the final episode in Season One. I’ll be back with Season Two on Monday, April 20th. Please consider becoming a paid subscriber of the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com). That’s where you’ll find complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.Dr. Tacey M. Atsitty de Gonzales, Diné (Navajo), is Tsénahabiłnii (Sleep Rock People) and born for Ta’neeszahnii (Tangle People).Atsitty is a recipient of the Wisconsin Brittingham Prize for Poetry and other prizes. Her work has appeared or is forthcoming in POETRY; EPOCH; Kenyon Review Online; Prairie Schooner; Leavings, and other publications. Her first book is Rain Scald (University of New Mexico Press, 2018), and her second book is (At) Wrist (University of Wisconsin Press, 2023).She has a PhD in Creative Writing from Florida State University and is Assistant Professor of Creative Writing at Beloit College in Wisconsin, where she lives with her husband.This is my letter to the world,That never wrote to me,--The simple news that Nature told,With tender majesty.Her message is committedTo hands I cannot see;For love of her, sweet countrymen,Judge tenderly of me!After Emily Dickinson’s ‘Letter to the World’Tacey M. AttsityThis is my letter to the earthWho never wrote me back—Perhaps except to say: Mirth,I meant to give you backonce more & give you more than birth.You left me hollow inside, here:a cave mined of worth—more than a sinceregesture or gemstone glimmeringfrom the darkness above— I meantto be shimmeringduring your ascent—Fact check:Tacey mentions Emily’s father at Amherst College – Edward Dickinson was the treasurer of that college for nearly four decades. His father before him (Samuel Fowler Dickinson) was instrumental in founding the school and his son, Austin, Emily’s brother, took over the treasurer position follwing his father. Edward’s main profession, however, was as a lawyer (as was Austin’s).Regarding Emily or women in general attending lectures at Amherst College in the 19th century, emilydickinsonmuseum.org says, “(Amherst) Academy students were permitted to attend lectures at Amherst College, and while there is no definitive evidence that Emily Dickinson did so, it seems likely.”Concepts mentioned:caesuraDickinson going to Boston when she was ill/for eye issues – During the years 1864 & 1865, she spends a great deal of time at a boarding house where her Norcross cousins lived in the Boston area while being treated for an eye ailment that caused her to suffer pain and light sensitivity.The “scandal” that Tacey refers to in connection to Emily’s brother was a long-term affair Austin Dickinson had with the much younger Mabel Loomis Todd. Their relationship was an open secret and their meeting place was often the Homestead, where Emily and her sister, Lavinia, lived. Loomis Todd became one of Dickinson’s main editors after her death.Poetry slam – is a competitive form of poetry where someone performs on stage for up to three minutes, without props, notes, or music. Five judges sellected from the audience rate each poet Olympic-style on a scale from 1-10. The high and low scores are thrown out and the remaining three added.Quatrains – stanzas of four linesTacey’s poem “Groundwater” can be read here. (To hear me read this poem combined with a slightly extended conversation about it compared to the edited version within the full episode, go to the the separate post called “Bonus Bit: ‘Groundwater’ by Tacey M. Atsitty.”)The Diné (Navajo) creation story of the Twins / Monster Slayer. This link will take you to a subtitled video of part I of the story – when the twins are born. From there, you can find the continuing story if you’re interested (the same person has posted parts II, III, etc.) Here is a post with the story written in English, though the background on the site makes it extremely difficult to read. Maybe you can copy and paste the words to a document. I’ve avoided many sites because they refer to the story as a “myth,” which Tacey explained she doesn’t like.Writers & Works Mentioned (hopefully in order):The TranscendentalistsThe Romantic poetsShelly’s “Ozmandias” (Percy Bysshe Shelley)Lucy TapahonsoLaura ToheEsther BelinNia FranciscoJim BarnesJames WrightAlice FultonSrikanth ReddyBrigit Pegeen Kelly’s poem “Song.” The podcast I mentioned recently listening to the poem on was Breaking Form in October 2025 with James Allen Hall and Aaron Smith, who do a masterful job of discussing the poems’ themes.Layli Long SoldierNatalie DiazGeorge HerbertGerard Manley HopkinsRecorded January 2026. If you have enjoyed this first season of Melody or Witchcraft, please consider becoming a paid subscriber. There are multiple subsequent seasons in the works—I’m excited for it all. I’m also in for hours of editing in my one-woman production. Thank you for considering supporting this work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Two wee stories from Dr. Mossberg to complement our interview. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.Dr. Barbara Mossberg has led an Emily Dickinson-infused life for 77 years, writing poetry since age 6 in the now-burned Altadena, California foothills, and publishing poetry and criticism since age 12; her first book was Emily Dickinson: When a Writer Is a Daughter, 1982, named by Choice Outstanding Academic Book of the Year. In 1986 she co-founded the Emily Dickinson International Society when she was serving in a federal appointment as U.S. Scholar in Residence for USIA (U.S. State Department), American Studies Specialist. As a dramatist and actor, she has written “Flying with Emily Dickinson,” about her career of lecturing on Dickinson in over 25 countries as a Fulbrighter and cultural diplomat. California laureate/Poet in Residence for Pacific Grove (CA), and author of two recent books of memoir poetry, one organized around Emily Dickinson, she is Professor of Practice in Environmental Humanities, Clark Honors College, University of Oregon.A little Madness in the SpringIs wholesome even for the King,But God be with the Clown –Who ponders this tremendous scene –This whole Experiment of Green –As if it were his own!Natural History Does Not Include My Plans to Fly (revised title: “Don’t Have Bones”)Barbara MossbergI don’t know what I expected,In this Museum of Natural HistoryWhich turns out to be death.Once it flew.A city block of bones--Mementos:Mortal antiques,Stuffed buffalo,Mangy remnants--More, and more.Continent to continent, onCanoes, sailboats, rafts,Room after room,Always to meet the same doom, the roarOf the eyes of the hunter, silence of skins.Death’s clutter—I could drown in baskets, bins,Thousands of yearsHere as brown triangles,Some poor lady’s time.Oh, her time!In stifling caves on the cliffs,On the ice, confining plains.Silenced remains.No. None of this was real.Not I.I deny a history of skeletons.I don’t have bones.No spine that saysIf you live, you die.Get me out of here.There are artifacts--but I own a private evolution.“Natural History”Does not tell my story,My skin new and fresh.This is my time now, my baskets, my happiness,The gloryOf my mysterious flesh.Dr. Mossberg’s book is Clown Cantos: Everything is Alive in its Own Way, SingingWriters/people/works mentioned:Dante’s Divine ComedyIan Chillag’s Radiotopia podcast “Everything is Alive”Dolly Parton’s “Everything is Beautiful in Its Own Way”Ralph Waldo Emerson (Emerson was a guest on more than one occasion at the Evergreen’s — Emily’s brother’s home next door to hers.)Toni Morrison’s The Bluest EyeRalph Ellison’s The Invisible Man(Ernest) HemingwayGertrude SteinPablo NerudaRumiDickinson poems mentioned:I dwell in PossibilityI’m Nobody! Who are you?I’ll tell you how the Sun roseTo be alive is PowerRecorded in December 2025.(Apologies for the occasional imbalances in volume levels in this episode. I was unable to completely resolve these glitches in the recording, but have made changes since to prevent them in future episodes.) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes.Katie Farris’s recent poems & translations appear in Granta, Poetry, and The New York Times. Her book, Standing in the Forest of Being Alive (Alice James, 2023) was shortlisted for the 2023 TS Eliot Prize.The Brain — is wider than the Sky —For — put them side by side —The one the other will containWith ease — and You — beside —The Brain is deeper than the sea —For — hold them — Blue to Blue —The one the other will absorb —As Sponges — Buckets — do —The Brain is just the weight of God —For — Heft them — Pound for Pound —And they will differ — if they do —As Syllable from Sound —Finishing Emily Dickinson, First Deacon in William Blake’s Church of the Marriage of Heaven and Hell, in the Oncologist’s Waiting RoomKatie FarrisOh, Emily, goodbye!We met in February and parted in July—I meetyour sweet velocity in every thing that flies—in moteand star and sphere—in bird and phosphorus of God!Oblique, you preached obliquity—your body, steeple for the Church of Mystery— your bell rings on, beyond.Concepts mentioned in the interview with Katie:“The Houghton” is the Houghton Library at Harvard which houses many original Dickinson materials – both poetic and from the Homestead“The ‘Daisy’ part of Dickinson” – Dickinson sometimes wrote about herself in a way that show her as small or submissive. For example, she references herself in her Master Letters as “Daisy” and, for example, says of Daisy “who bends her smaller life to his.” The Master Letters are three likely unsent letters of intense ardor to an unknown “Master.”“those two photographs (of Dickinson) and that’s it” – Besides the one authenticated photograph that everyone will have seen – a 16-year-old Emily, a second photograph surfaced some years back. You can see both and read about them here.Ballad meterArs poetica“‘undashed’ versions of the poems” – The first books published of Dickinson’s work were edited to exclude her unique punctuation. Those versions sometimes still surface.Other Dickinson poems mentioned:A narrow Fellow in the GrassThe Popular Heart is a Cannon first—It came at last but prompter Death (which includes the line “And his metallic Peace—”)People mentioned:Cristanne Miller (who edited the newest complete works of Dickinson’s that Katie read in full. Miller’s book is titled, Emily Dickinson’s Poems As She Preserved Them.)Annie DillardEdgar Allan PoeSylvia PlathWilliam Blake and his book, The Marriage of Heaven and HellBrenda Shaughnessy and her book, The Octopus GardenGertrude SteinAni DiFranco and her song “Fuel”Hélène Cixous, Three Steps on the Ladder of WritingClarice LispectorFanny BurneyRecorded in November 2025. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Jennifer Franklin is a poet, professor, and editor whose lastest book is If Some God Shakes Your House (Four Way Books, 2023). Her work has been commissioned by the Metropolitan Museum of Art and her awards include a Pushcart Prize, a NYFA/City Artist Corp grant, and residencies from the T.S. Eliot Foundation and Café Royal Cultural Foundation. Her publications include The Paris Review, The Nation, poets.org, and “Poetry in Motion” from Poetry Society of America. She leads manuscript revision workshops and teaches in Manhattanville’s MFA Program.I’m ceded – I’ve stopped being Theirs –The name They dropped upon my faceWith water, in the country churchIs finished using, now,And They can put it with my Dolls,My childhood, and the string of spools,I’ve finished threading – too –Baptized, before, without the choice,But this time, consciously, Of Grace –Unto supremest name –Called to my Full – The Crescent dropped –Existence’s whole Arc, filled up,With one – small Diadem.My second Rank – too small the first –Crowned – Crowing – on my Father’s breast –A half unconscious Queen –But this time – Adequate – Erect,With Will to choose, or to reject,And I choose, just a Crown –As AntigoneJennifer FranklinI’m all done being nice.It hasn’t gotten me anywhere.Since I was young, I gaveeverything away—milkmoney, homework, adoration.Everyone wanted to make meinto a small version of herself—teaching me weaving, writing,wiles. All I wanted was love—picked a bouquet of dandelionsand handed it to my mother.When she turned her mouthinto a little o and called the tightyellow suns weeds, my bodybecame a weight I wantedto let go. I thought of allthe lessons I memorizedto keep me still, the colorsI couldn’t wear becausethey clashed with my red hair,all the rules of modestyso men would not look at mewith hunger. The only thingI owned was a jar I was given,like Pandora, as a girl. Before Iunlatched the lid, I had already losteverything—faith, health,my child. I refused to watchwhat flew out. But somethinghard as lapis, real as want,wrenched my wrist right backso hope remained, writhingalone at the bottom of the jarlike dirty water after deadtulips are discarded—yellow stamens droppingpollen to the floor. Silent,it watched me for years.Months at a time, I forgotit was there. But when it’strapped like that, it growsso large, nothing can quell it.No one thanks me for whatI have done. But I don’t needpraise anymore. I turnedweeds into flowers.Concepts mentioned:Keat’s Negative CapabilityThe persona poemEpistolary poemsOther Dickinson poems mentioned:“The Soul selects her own Society –”The Master Letters“After great pain, a formal feeling comes –”“’Hope’ is the thing with feathers”“They shut me up in Prose –”Characters mentioned:AntigonePandoraPersephonePeople mentioned in the interview:Alice Quinn (Columbia U)Richard Howard (Columbia U)Arnold Weinstein (Brown U)OvidDu FuThe RomanticsLucie Brock-BroidoJane HirshfieldLouise Glück(T.S.) Eliot(William) BlakeMichael HarperRita Dove and her book, Mother LoveLucille CliftonLaurie Sheck – The Book of PersephoneJames JoyceProustViriginia WoolfWilliam FaulknerLucia JoyceSylvia PlathBooks mentioned:Anne of Green GablesJane EyreWuthering HeightsRecorded October 2025.Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images and regular notices of new episodes. melodyorwitchcraft.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

This is eight minutes of Jennifer and I casually chatting after the end of the official interview. We talk about another poem, a couple books, the trials and tribulations of Dickinson’s posthumous publication etc. No notes on this one, but feel free to comment with your questions. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Nuala O’Connor lives in Galway, Ireland. Her fifth poetry collection Menagerie (Arlen House) was published in 2025. Her novel Miss Emily, about Emily Dickinson’s friendship with an Irish maid, was published in 2015 by Penguin USA and Sandstone in the UK. She’s currently writing a memoir about late-diagnosed autism. She is a member of Aosdána.“Hope” is the thing with feathers -That perches in the soul -And sings the tune without the words -And never stops - at all -And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -And sore must be the storm -That could abash the little BirdThat kept so many warm -I’ve heard it in the chillest land -And on the strangest Sea -Yet - never - in Extremity,It asked a crumb - of me.Miss Emily Dickinson’s Coconut CakeNuala O’ConnorShe blends Virgin Island coconutwith butter and sugar; sieves flour – two cups –beats eggs with the milk of an Amherst cow,adds cream of tartar to make everything bloom.In her white wrapper she stands at the window,lowers a basket of cake to the children below.‘Love’s oven is warm’, Miss Dickinson says,watching them eat from her spinster’s room.Other Dickinson poems mentioned:A Bird, came down the WalkI felt a Funeral, in my Brain,A Narrow fellow in the Grass (the “snake poem”) The quote I mention by Dickinson that shows how unhappy she was at this poem being changed when it was published (without her permission) is: “Lest you meet my Snake and suppose that I deceive it was robbed of me - defeated too of the third line by the punctuation. The third and the fourth were one - I had told you that I did not print.” (from Letter 316, early 1866, to Thomas Wentworth Higginson)Other Dickinson references mentioned:Dickinson’s “terror since September” we mention comes from Letter 261, 25 April 1862 to T. W. Higginson: “…I had a terror-since September-I could tell to none-and so I sing, as the Boy does by the Burying Ground-because I am afraid-…”Nuala references Dickinson saying to her niece Martha (Dickinson Bianchi), with a pantomimed turn of a key, “freedom.” From the book Emily Dickinson Face to Face, Martha writes, “She would stand, looking down, one hand raised, thumb and forefinger closed on an imaginary key, and say, with a quick turn of her wrist, ‘It’s just a turn—and freedom, Matty!’” (p. 58)Here’s an essay by Nuala called “The Hope Cure” –sharing its name with what will be the upcoming full memoir mentioned in the interview.People mentioned in the interview with Nuala:Emily Brontë and her poem “No Coward Soul is Mine” that Dickinson requested read at her funeral.“Higginson” is Thomas Wentworth Higginson, Union commander, radical abolishionist, Dickinson’s long-time correspondent, and one of her posthumous editors.Writers mentioned (influences of Nuala’s):Maria EdgeworthEdith NesbitNoel StreatfeildWalter Macken“The Brontës” refer to sisters Charlotte, Emily, & AnneJane AustenKate ChopinHélène Cixous (Nuala quotes from “The Laugh of the Medusa”)Anne EnrightMary MorrissyEilís Ní DhuibhnePaula MeehanSharon OldsI don’t think I’ve ever come across a food blog that quoted poetry before! Emily’s coconut cake recipe can be found here (the site includes a scan of the recipe written in Emily’s hand.)Emily’s recipe for gingerbread can be found here.Here’s a video demonstration of one version of Emily’s black cake recipe.Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images and regular notices of new episodes. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Tina Cane is the founder and director of Writers in the Schools, Rhode Island and served as Poet Laureate of Rhode Island 2016-2024. Her books include Dear Elena: Letters for Elena Ferrante, Body of Work, and Year of the Murder Hornet. She’s also published two verse novels for young people, Alma Presses Play and Are You Nobody, Too? and is co-host with Joey Sweeney of the forthcoming podcast Stay Free.It feels a shame to be AliveWhen Men so brave are deadOne envies the Distinguished DustPermitted such a HeadThe Stone that tells defending WhomThis Spartan put awayWhat little of Him we possessedIn Pawn for LibertyThe price is great Sublimely paidDo we deserve a ThingThat lives like Dollars must be piledBefore we may obtain?Are we that wait sufficient worthThat such Enormous PearlAs life dissolved be for UsIn Battle’s horrid Bowl?It may be a Renown to liveI think the Man who dieThose unsustained SaviorsPresent Divinity-Emily DickinsonExcerpts from Are You Nobody, Too?Tina Cane(Tina's poems were added as images to maintain formatting. Please go to kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com to see these and all images in these notes.)Fact Check:The excerpt from Are you Nobody, Too? titled “People/Purses,” is introduced with the beginning of a Dickinson poem Savior! I’ve no one else to tell - / And so I trouble thee. / I am the one forget thee so – Dost thou remember me? that Tina notes as #295 before she reads. This is the poem’s number in the collected works published by Ralph Franklin. In the Thomas Johnson edition of her collected works, it’s #217. You may see poem numbers noted as J-something or Fr-something; this system is what is being referred to. The Dickinson poems that you find online at the major sites such as the Academy of American Poets and the Poetry Foundation normally note the Franklin numbers. You can read the complete J217/Fr295 here.Other Dickinson poems mentioned:To the stanch DustWe safe commit thee –Tongue if it hath,Inviolate to thee –Silence – denote –And Sanctity – enforce thee –Passenger – of Infinity –Watch Tina’s co-presentation at the 2025 Tell It Slant Festival, Emily Dickinson Museum, Amherst, Massachusetts. (“Open My Carefully: Emily Dickinson’s Legacy of Correspondence”)Concepts mentioned:caesuraEpistolary poemsPeople named in the interview with Tina:Frazar Stearns (although this article is dated, it gives in-depth context for the circumstances around and impact of Stearns’ death)(Alfred, Lord) TennysonAimee NezhukumatathilElena FerranteMargaret AtwoodSheila Maldonado reading her poem Tina quoted from, “Temporary Statement”Robert LowellInterview recorded October 2025.Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your comments. For regular notifications of Melody or Witchcraft episodes, join the Ask the Poet Substack at kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

Guests for Season One: Tina Cane, Nuala O’Connor, Jennifer Franklin, Katie Farris, Barbara Mossberg, & Tacey M. Atsitty. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

One of the poetry techniques that I’ve come to love – to look for, to lean on is repetition. Repetition comes in many forms and has many uses. Sometimes it’s about emphasis, sometimes it’s about a foggy, dreamy wistfulness or melancholy tone. Sometimes it takes the form of an incantation, a recitation that wants to call something into being, or it can be about music and rhythm—like the chorus of your favorite song, how it can become familiar so quickly, something that stays with you. I could go on.My mantel, always and whether I like it or not, has to do with finding parallels between poetry and the rest of life. So, naturally, while working on Melody or Witchcraft, I discovered not just that certain things—namely themes guests came around to during our conversations—repeated, but how fruitful that repetition was in helping me understand what we were doing and in contributing to the enjoyment of what we were up to.The conversations of Season One touch on topics you might anticipate a poetry podcast to touch on, like epistolary (letter) poetry, the trials of publishing, favorite mentors, and that perennial subject: the speaker of the poem. It also touches on topics you won’t have expected: the history of breast cancer surgery, wildlife in Indonesia, adoption, and Navajo creation stories.And through all those tributaries of dialogue and more, there are the most beautiful overlaps in subject matter, the repetitions. For example, one of the biggest to emerge is the importance of bringing the voices of women forward who did not have the opportunity to be heard in their lifetimes. I couldn’t have planned a more satisfying focal point to return to.Our starting point, Emily Dickinson, is intriguing for the ways in which she also wasn’t heard, and indeed for the ways she was—some of them interpreted far off-base from what her letters and other documents show to be the case. The second trailer for the show that I share with you here is on offer to give you another taste of the podcast before it debuts in just two weeks. Mondays beginning February 9th you’ll be able to find the full podcast episodes here and at other podcast platforms like Spotify and Apple.Check out @melodyorwitchcraft on Instagram as well as our webpage melodyorwitchcraft.com for more photos and info, and of course make sure you’re subscribed here at the Substack to get all the updates.Kelli Russell Agodon’s poem “Hunger” is below. The way repetition operates in this poem is a kind of two steps forward, one step back momentum in order to story the poem forward. A stutter, and yet, a momentum. Kelli will be a guest on the second season of the Melody or Witchcraft Podcast (which will be released over April & May).HungerKelli Russell AgodonIf we never have enough love, we have more than most.We have lost dogs in our neighborhood and wild coyotes,and sometimes we can’t tell them apart. Sometimeswe don’t want to. Once I brought home a coyote and toldmy lover we had a new pet. Until it ate our chickens.Until it ate our chickens, our ducks, and our cat. Sometimeswe make mistakes and call them coincidences. We hold openthe door then wonder how the stranger ended up in our home.There is a woman on our block who thinks she is feeding bunnies,but they are large rats without tails. Remember the farmer’s wife?Remember the carving knife? We are all trying to changewhat we fear into something beautiful. But even rats need to eat.Even rats and coyotes and the bones on the trail could be the boneson our plates. I ordered Cornish hen. I ordered duck. Sometimeslove hurts. Sometimes the lost dog doesn’t want to be found.(Academy of American Poets, 2017)Prompt: Write the word “Sometimes” at the beginning of three different lines. Write the word “Remember” at the beginning of two more. Next, choose one abstract concept (love, anger, grief, compassion…) and two-three concrete nouns of things in your average or not-so-average day (coffee, traffic, books, rain…). Make this collection of abstract and the concrete words the core of what you talk (ostensibly) about—plan to use each of them at least three times in your draft. Using the first things that come to mind (no overthinking!) complete each of the Sometimes and Remember lines. Try out your new lines peppered with lines you write using your abstract/concrete word bank. Mix, match, and adjust as needed!Create and celebrate creative work—these are paths to resistance and redirecting energy into the world that we want. Thank you for your support! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe