Musonomics Podcast

With apologies to cyberpunk author William Gibson, the technology is out in the wild.  The lawsuits are filed. The licensing deals are being signed. The future of the music industry is already here.  It's just not evenly distributed. This is the third episode in Musonomics' AI series, and it's the one that looks forward — beyond the fear and hype to what's already taking shape. When content becomes infinitely abundant, what gets more valuable? And who wins? Larry sits down with Cherie Hu, founder of Water and Music, and Daniel Rowland, VP of Strategy and Partnerships at LANDR to map where things actually stand — and where they're heading. They cover why professional AI adoption is far higher than anyone publicly admits, how major labels are quietly re-centralizing by buying up indie distributors, what the "DAWification of everything" means for the line between assistive and generative tools, and why the music company of the future might look like a label, a tech company, and a data company all at once. One thread runs through all of it:  authenticity is still the industry's most fragile — and most valuable — asset.

Artificial intelligence is the force reshaping the music industry's future. And the legal battle over who gets paid, and for what, is just getting started. In 2024, the major labels sued AI music companies Suno and Udio. Music publishers sued Anthropic this year for $3 billion. The AI companies say training on copyrighted music is transformative, and protected by fair use.  Rightsholders say if you're building a business on music, you have to pay for it. The courts haven't settled it. Congress hasn't touched it. But the marketplace is already moving. Larry talks with David Israelite of the National Music Publishers Association and Judge David Strickler of the U.S. Copyright Royalty Board, both adjunct professors at NYU Steinhardt, about fair use, the shadow of litigation, why voluntary licensing deals are quietly multiplying, and whether greed, fear, or good old-fashioned bargaining theory will ultimately draw the line between innovation and compensation. In this episode: Why the fair use argument is the central legal battleground, and what the courts have said so far How settlements with Suno and Udio are reshaping the landscape before any landmark ruling arrives Why voluntary licensing deals are multiplying, and what the YouTube era teaches us about where this is headed Whether Congress will step in, and why the best-case scenario is that it doesn't What the next three to five years look like for creators, rights holders, and the AI companies caught in between

Artificial intelligence is no longer on the horizon for the music industry. It's here, and it's moving fast. But is AI the next great instrument in a long line of tools that musicians learn and master? Or is it something fundamentally different, a technology that doesn't extend what artists do, but replaces it? In the first episode of a three-part series, Larry sits down with Cherie Hu, founder of Water & Music, and Grammy Award-winning producer and AI analyst Yung Spielberg to map the current landscape: where the tools are, what's actually working, where value is concentrating, and what it all means for the next generation of artists. What you'll hear: The modern history of AI in music and why music has lagged behind other creative fields in adopting it. How Suno and Udio differ, and what Udio's shift to a closed, licensed platform means for creators. Assistive vs. generative AI tools, and why those two worlds are increasingly colliding. Where value is concentrating: platforms winning, major labels racing to deal, artists largely left out. Should a 20-year-old artist be excited or worried? The case for live music and human connection as the safest bets.  

Superfan is a strong contender for Music Industry Buzzword of 2025-26. But what does it mean, exactly?  And what does it mean for the industry?    On this episode, Larry talks with Olivia Jones from MIDIA research who is watching the space closely, and Musonomics correspondent Mariel Darling sits down with Mag Rodriguez, founder of EVEN, one of the leading platforms doing the heavy lifting to talk about the challenges and rewards of superfan engagement. 

In this episode, we take a look back at the first half of 2025. Larry sits down with Tatiana Cirisano of MIDIA research to discuss underlying industry trends across the globe, including where music meets audiences. Larry also talks with Paul Sipio of Apollo Global Management, which has invested billions in the industry over the past few years, about why music catalogue has been, and continues to be, an attractive investment on Wall Street and beyond.

It's presidential election season and music is back in the thick of it. In 2016 we spoke with Ben Sisario of the New York Times, Professor Chris Sprigman of NYU Law School and music industry lawyer Joel Schoenfeld about the historical and then current role of music in Presidential politics.  In this episode, we revisit that episode and provide a 2024 update.

In this episode, Larry and Lynn discuss a streaming fraud bust, music meets presidential politics yet again, Kendrick spikes the ball, and protect those copyrights!

We're in a song economy but not yet a songwriter economy, according to a landmark report by MiDiA Research. In this episode:  the report's co-author Tatiana Cirisano, and two new-school independent music publishers rewriting the rulebook, Evan Bogart from Seeker Music and Lylette Pizarro from Influence Media.

On this episode: Larry And Lynn on Warner Music's big restructuring. Also UMG earnings, the Labels' showdown with AI platforms, and has on-demand streaming peaked?

On this episode: Larry and Lynn dive into the DOJ vs. LiveNation, what's behind recent arena tour cancellations, and Spotify's price increase and what it means. Also: is Queen's catalogue a billion dollar property?

Spotify started offering limited audiobook listening late last year for no extra charge -- after the first price increase in the company's history went through for all US premium subscribers. What Spotify did was bundle their paid-for music subscriptions in the US with its nascent audiobook service in an attempt to lower the rates it pays to songwriters and music publishers.  Spotify says it's entitled to bundle services in this way.  In this episode, why former Spotify Global Head of Music Publishing Adam Parness sees it differently.

Larry and Lynn discuss earnings season highlights -- UMG, Live Nation, Hybe and more. They unpack Kendrick v. Drake, and will Spotify's bundling move have a major unforeseen consequence?

A live interview at NYU with David Israelite. United States Copyright Office Register Shira Perlmutter oversees a team of 500 people and advises the U.S. Congress and the executive branch on copyright policy.      By definition her office is the foremost expert on copyright in the country.  But she is the foremost expert, as a person, on copyright in the country.  If you're excited or terrified by how music policy is being made around AI -- especially deepfakes and digital likeness -- you won't want to miss this wide-ranging public conversation with Register Perlmutter and NMPA President David Israelite.  Special thanks to peermusic.  

This week: TikTok in the news: the Taylor Swift TikTok anomaly and the forced sale legislation. Also, what's up at Hipgnosis, and Spotify in the news: Its earnings and the NMPA's complaint.

This week we unpack the full year 2023 RIAA data.  Are we too dependent on subscription growth?  Larry Miller and Billboard Power 100 music lawyer Lynn Gonzalez debate.  Also:  What happened at Hipgnosis and putting the Shot Tower Capital report in context; why we love Cowboy Carter, the new Beyoncé magnum opus; and Larry gets a sneak peek at the sparkly new Brooklyn Paramount.     Musonomics Flash is supported by Luminate.    musonomics.com

Star music lawyer Lynn Gonzalez of Granderson Des Rochers joins NYU Steinhardt Music Business prof Larry Miller on this Musonomics Flash episode to dissect the IFPI Global Music Report and emerging markets growth; Suno, a startlingly impressive AI for text-based music creation and The Soul of a Machine; Bandlab blows through a new milestone and Larry explains why private equity isn't a giant vampire squid wrapped around the face of the music industry.   Musonomics Flash is supported by Luminate.  https://luminatedata.com  

For this flash edition of Musonomics, Larry Miller is Joined by music attorney Lynn Gonzalez from Granderson Des Rochers LLP. Larry and Lynn unpack some recent developments in music finance and technology, including Universal Music's latest investments and its standoff with TikTok, Tennessee's ELVIS Act, and Music Production Startup EngineEars.   Musonomics Flash is supported by Luminate.  https://luminatedata.com

On Wednesday, Luminate, the data company powering the Billboard charts, released its 2023 year end music report. Larry Miller and guest co-host Britnee Foreman from Exceleration Music pored over the whole thing. In this mini-episode they share key takeaways and surprises, and make a few predictions based on what they learned.

The public stocks of many music companies like UMG, WMG and Spotify now trade on NYSE, NASDAQ and foreign exchanges.  But wouldn't it be cool to easily invest in US and overseas labels, publishers, royalty funds, digital services, concert promoters, venue operators, creator tools and broadcasters across the entire global music sector, in a single trade?  Join MUSQ founder David Schulhof as we unpack how the first music ETF came together -- now.

AI may be the latest inflection point in the music business as were the introduction of the LP, CD, Napster, track downloads and streaming.  NYU Professors Howie Singer and Bill Rosenblatt discuss their new book Key Changes: The Ten Times Technology Transformed the Music Industry. 

Player piano rolls... electric guitars... wah wah pedals... ProTools... AutoTune... and now AI.  But is artificial intelligence the next step in creator tools or something far more threatening?  Join Living Colour guitarist and technologist Vernon Reid as we unpack how AI technology is affecting the way we create, record, license, and consume music. With Britnee Foreman from Exceleration Music.

Deep into the streaming era, vinyl outsold CD sales last year for the first time since 1987 and grew for the 16th straight year. We unpack the state of vinyl with John T. Kunz, owner of Austin's Waterloo Records; Russ Crupnick, Managing Partner of MusicWatch; John Pette, co-owner of new vinyl pressing plant OUTTA WAX; Gina Williams, Senior Director of Independent Retail and Vinyl Marketing at Warner Music Group; and Larry Jaffee, author of Record Store Day: The Most Improbable Comeback of the 21st Century.

The transition over the last decade from purchases of CDs, vinyl albums and downloads to subscription and ad-supported streaming has had an enormous impact on the music industry.  And not just on revenue, but on the multiples of revenue sophisticated investors have paid for music rights.  We discuss what our report on streaming's impact says, how we put it together and what it means.  With DiMA chief Garrett Levin.

Neighboring rights are similar to the public performance rights associated with musical compositions, but they are paid to record labels and performerming artists rather than to songwriters and publishers. Neighboring rights have great potential in the streaming age, but with each country comes a different challenge in reporting and collecting. To unpack these issues we chat with peermusic CEO Mary Megan Peer and Concord COO Vic Zaraya.

George Wein single handedly created the model for the popular music festival. In this episode, host Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt celebrates George's legacy with the Newport Jazz and Folk Festivals with a cast of Wein's friends and colleagues. Included are Newport Jazz Festival Artistic Director Christian McBride, City Winery's Michael Dorf, Newport Festivals Foundation Executive Director Jay Sweet and COO Kira Favro, Newport Board Chair Bruce Gordon, Secretary of Commerce, and former Governor of Rhode Island, Gina Raimondo and longtime friend Jerry Chazen

Jon Platt, head of the world's largest music publisher Sony Music Publishing chats with host Larry Miller in a fireside chat in front of a live virtual audience at NYU.  Jon's pedigree of signing songwriters like Jay-Z, Beyoncé, Kanye, and Drake has afforded him a well-deserved place as a shrewd creative executive and a powerful advocate for music creators.  Jon discusses his unique career path from his early days as a DJ and his development as a creative at EMI,  the competitive advantage of diversity and inclusion and the future of music publishing.

If it seems like a remarkable number of larger-than-life legacy artists have sold the rights to their catalogs lately for astonishing price tags, it's very likely the work of Merck Mercuriadis, CEO of Hipgnosis Songs Fund. Hipgnosis is disrupting the music industry by dropping big bucks on artists' songs and transforming them into an investable asset class. In this episode of Musonomics, host Larry Miller analyzes how the valuations of artists' catalogs are calculated through historical and economic factors and then speaks to Merck Mercuriadis about the present and future state of his company, and pop songwriter/producer Tricky Stewart -- along with his brother and business partner Mark Stewart -- about Tricky's sale to Hipgnosis.

The evolution of video games has been entwined with the music industry since the 1970s; dependent on related tech developments and targeting a similar consumer audience. Video games have become a significant revenue stream for music artists from e-sports, rhythm games, and titles like Grand Theft Auto. Now Fortnite, Minecraft, Twitch, and Roblox have changed the context for how music interacts with the gaming experience, and with the pandemic keeping people at home, have become a primary channel for many artists to reach their fans. In this episode of Musonomics, host Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt explores the history of music, sound and games, and speaks to Jon Vlassopulos, the Global Head of Music at gaming platform Roblox, about the platform's music events, and what's coming in the future.

Why is licensing music for a podcast like sailing in uncharted seas? In this episode of Musonomics, host Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt delves into why this format creates so much complexity for music usage even as the audience for podcasts is exploding. In conversations with music clearance expert Deborah Mannis-Gardner, music supervisor Scott Velasquez, and Premier Music founder Josh Deutsch, we explore different approaches, anchored by a review of the key terms that can make music licensing seem so opaque.

Most artists make most of their income from touring.  We want and need live music, but even as some states and venues begin to reopen, what will it take for masses of fans to return?  We unpack a groundbreaking new study from Music Canada. Music Canada's Graham Henderson, supermanager Jonathan Azu and music journalist Cherie Hu on what the future might hold for live music. 

In this episode of Musonomics, Rob Stringer talks with Larry Miller about his journey from London to the NYC punk scene to the corner office of one of the world's largest music companies; his primary focus on enabling artists and their art, the competitive edge he got from growing up with the BBC and much more.

In this episode of Musonomics: how is it possible that more people are listening to music than ever, but musicians are earning less? Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt talks to musician, indie label owner, and festival producer Miranda Mulholland and Graham Henderson, the president and CEO of Music Canada, about the "value gap" – the growing mismatch between the value that user upload services, such as YouTube, get from the music used on their services, and the revenue that is then returned to songwriters, performers, and record labels – and what is being done to address this issue, which the international recorded music organization IFPI considers the biggest threat to the future sustainability of the industry.

Stock investors looks to equity analysts for guidance on whether to buy, sell or hold stocks in individual companies.  Gabelli equity research analyst John Tinker has covered music and entertainment stocks for over twenty years.  In this wide ranging conversation we hunt for value in the stocks of Spotify, Sirius/Pandora, iHeart Media, Live Nation, Vivendi/Universal Music Group, Tencent Music, Liberty Media and more.

BTS just played SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, marking the first-ever appearance by a Korean pop group in SNL's 44 seasons.  On this episode, we examine the emergence and explosive growth of K-Pop on the American musical landscape and explore the genre's origins, current state and future with K-Pop expert Hannah Waitt.

Spotify supports music and the people who create it, and recently launched "Secret Geniuses," to recognize often-unheralded songwriters.  So why did Spotify join with Amazon and others to challenge how they pay music creators after this matter was decided in federal court over a year ago?  In this episode of Musonomics, Larry Miller talks with David Israelite, CEO of the National Music Publishers Association.

The most sweeping update of American music copyright in a generation is now law.  In this episode of Musonomics, Larry Miller talks to three people that shaped or closely followed this bill from draft to signing:  Jacqueline Charlesworth, Mitch Glazier, and Robert Levine on why the Music Modernization Act was so urgently needed, how it came to be, and what happens next.

Music is all around us, all the time – as we shop in a store, eat in a restaurant – or work off those calories in a spin class. In this episode of Musonomics, Prof. Larry Miller from the NYU Music Business Program explores the evolution and licensing issues of background and foreground music used in businesses, from the birth of Muzak in the wartime factory — and then we shift into overdrive with Soul Cycle's rawk gawd Sean Linehan on how he sculpts the playlists for each of his sold out spin classes.

For millions of us, artificial Intelligence got real when we added smart speakers to our homes. Our AI assistants are standing by, ready to play music, turn on the news, start the oven, or see who's at the front door. But as they make life easier, they're also creating new challenges for the music and entertainment industries. And then there's the matter of security...just how smart do we want our AI devices to be?   Amazon, Google, and Apple are all now competing to be the smart speaker in our homes -- and cars. As these their underlying voice assistants become more integrated in our homes, the entertainment industry must rethink how to reach these consumers. How will Alexa, Google Home or Siri go travel beyond our households and into the connected car? In this episode of Musonomics, we'll hear from industry reporter Cherie Hue and researcher Larry Rosin of Edison Research.

Digital music services continue to drive recovery of the music industry after a long period of decline, and the AM/FM music radio business is starting to feel it. Young people born after Millennials don't use radio the same as previous generations. Can commercial AM/FM radio compete with pure play digital music services? Russ Crupnick of MusicWatch and Steve Goldstein of Amplifi Media join us to discuss what's happening to radio listenership, and how radio needs to respond to the threat posed by unlimited, commercial-free music.

Rock is headed towards a demographic crisis. Fifty percent of last year's top 100 grossing acts are over 50 years old. So what will happen to the live music industry when Mick Jagger is no longer filling stadiums charging hundreds of dollars per ticket? On this episode of Musonomics, Larry Miller talks to Neil Shah from The Wall Street Journal and Cherie Hu from Forbes about the future of the live music industry and rock's demographic crisis.

In this episode of Musonomics: how China's music market is going legit. Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt talks to music executive Ed Peto who moved to China ten years ago to try and build a bridge between China and the western music industry. Now he runs Outdustry, a Beijing based music industry service company. Billy Koh, a popular judge on the TV talent shows and the founder and former CEO of the record label Ocean Butterflies, talks about how the financial crises in 2008 made China turn its eyes towards intellectual property.

In this episode of Musonomics: how does lyrics licensing work and who benefits from it? Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt talks to Daryl Ballantyne, CEO of Lyricfind, about what it was like to try and start a lyrics licensing business before the music publishers understood lyrics licensing was a thing. Songwriter Phil Galdston talks about how the changes in the music industry have affected the songwriters. And we also hear from New Yorkers about how they learn lyrics.

In the first episode of our third season of Musonomics, Larry Miller takes a look at the future of high quality music streaming services. To investigate whether or not there's enough room for a profitable niche market supporting multiple competitors in the high-resolution music market, we talk to MQA CEO Mike Jbara, 7 Digital Deputy CEO Pete Downton, and HDTracks CEO David Chesky.

In this episode of Musonomics: what does it mean to be a Music City? The term "Music City" is becoming widely used in cultural communities and has penetrated the political vernacular in many cities around the world. But just because a city has lots of live music venues, doesn't make it a Music City. There needs to be a formal strategy in place to optimize the music industry present in a city. Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt and producer Carmen Cuesta Roca speak to Shain Shapiro, Manager of the Nighttime Commission; Mirik Milan, the Night Mayor of Amsterdam; music publisher Justin Kalifowitz, the cofounder of New York is Music, which has raised awareness around the cultural and commercial impact of music on the region; and Julie Menin, Commissioner of the Mayor's Office of Media and Entertainment on what New York City is doing to support a robust music economy.

In this episode of Musonomics: why are more and more music industry insiders looking to Blockchain technology as a solution to the metadata problem? What really is the Blockchain? And why is it so important? These are just some of the questions host Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt, and co-host Carmen Cuesta Roca will unpack. The episode features PledgeMusic founder Benji Rogers, who is evangelizing a comprehensive database of music metadata on the Blockchain. Singer-songwriter Imogen Heap sheds light on the potential for accurate and intricate metadata. And Bill Rosenblatt of Giant Steps Media Technology Strategies explains that industry-wide standards are key to the metadata problem, but the complexity of the music industry and its vast number of stakeholders will make those standards difficult to achieve.

In this episode of Musonomics: why are music startups struggling to thrive, or even simply survive? Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt heeds several perspectives to understand why the space for music startups is so unforgiving, and what music startups can do to be successful. Cortney Harding discusses the recent slowdown in the music startup space. Edward Ginis and his business partner Brady Brim-DeForest, share of their success with their own startup, OpenPlay — one of the lucky ones able to spin out of a major independent label. David Pakman of Venrock explains why his firm has never invested in a digital media company. Jon Vanhala, formerly of Universal Music and now at Crossfade Partners, offers insight into who can be blamed for the fact that music startups are finding it so hard to make money. Finally, we hear from Michael Dorf, who turned away from the internet business and is now generating more profit than ever through live music experiences at his City Wineries across the country.

In this episode of Musonomics: what's driving the resurgence of vinyl. Larry Miller of NYU Steinhardt looks up the production line to see how the format is maturing, and what's holding it back from even faster growth. Josh Friedlander, the RIAA's data guy, talks about the continued growth of vinyl in the age of streaming. Billy Fields, the vinyl guy at Warner Music Group, chats with us about whether vinyl is heading for a plateau. And Eric Astor of Furnace Manufacturing takes us into the factory and through the manufacturing process from finished audio file to a pristine, pressed, perfect vinyl record.

In this episode of Musonomics, Larry Miller takes a look at how the copyright and royalty payment system is failing a new generation of songwriters. Ari Leff, a developing songwriter/producer who records as LAUV, and Nashville songwriter Brett James, who has written huge hits for Carrie Underwood, Jason Aldean, Kenny Chesney and Martina McBride, share the struggles of modern songwriters. We take a look back at how the collective licensing system was put in place — and how the Consent Decrees that govern ASCAP and BMI fail to protect the economic interests of songwriters in the modern music-consumption landscape. With ASCAP's Clara Kim, music attorney Chris Castle and The New Yorker's John Seabrook, this episode is packed with expert analysis and insight into how our antiquated music copyright system is breaking down — and how we might start to mold a better future for American songwriters.

Presidential politics is in the air! Hot on the heels of Super Tuesday we delve into the world of presidential campaign music. We take a trip back in time to look at how music has been used in American presidential campaigns from Washington to Obama and beyond, with lessons from the current election cycle and interviews with Ben Sisario of the New York Times on the impact that music can have on a presidential campaign, and entertainment lawyer Joel Schoenfeld and NYU Law School Professor Christopher Sprigman on what happens when music is used without the artist's and songwriter's permission.

It's big! But just how big is the Super Bowl Halftime Show for the artists that perform in it, and what does it cost to clear a song for use in a Super Bowl ad? Super Bowl 50 is this weekend, and on this episode of Musonomics, NYU Steinhardt Professor Larry Miller examines music's relationship to the NFL's biggest day. We'll take a look back at some classic ads to see how and why the Super Bowl became so important to advertisers, and Josh Rabinowitz of Grey Advertising sheds light on how music works in Super Bowl ads. Then it's on to the halftime show and a chat with Ed Christman of Billboard about the show's marketing power — and how a half time show performance drives the sale of records, downloads and streams.