Not to Forgive, but to Understand

The plight of the Rohingya remains under-addressed in public discourse, even as the genocide case brought by The Gambia against Myanmar continues before the International Court of Justice.In this interview, we speak with Mahi Ramakrishnan, an investigative journalist, filmmaker, and founder of Beyond Borders Malaysia, about refugees in Malaysia, the legal and political barriers they face, and her use of film, advocacy, and the Festival on Wheels to build public understanding and community connection.00:00 Opening / Content Note02:29 Introduction03:12 Rohingya Refugees in Kuala Lumpur04:44 From Investigative Journalism to Beyond Borders Malaysia11:32 Documenting Rohingya Stories and Malaysia’s Response15:20 Refugees, Race, Religion, and Malaysian Law20:48 Refugee Communities in Malaysia26:02 Patriarchy, Toxic Masculinity, and Community Education28:29 Child Marriage, Trafficking, and Exploitation34:35 The Origins of the Refugee Festival38:48 Migrant Workers, Refugees, and Legal Protection40:51 Community Support for Refugee Advocacy42:51 From Refugee Fest to Festival on Wheels46:21 How Festival on Wheels Builds Local Connection48:30 Future Goals for Refugee Rights in Malaysia53:36 An Image That Stays with Her55:08 Documentary Scenes and the Violence Refugees Face57:14 Closing Remarks

There are genocides that are neglected and underreported, and Sudan is often sidelined while other conflicts dominate global attention. In this episode, we speak with Christopher Tounsel, historian of modern Sudan and author of “Bounds of Blackness: African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity”. We examine how African Americans have engaged with Sudan across the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, focusing on race, religion, media, and foreign policy, and how these have shaped responses to conflict in Sudan and South Sudan. The conversation also addresses current dynamics, including the war in Sudan, the role of external actors, and how solidarity is formed, limited, and applied across different contexts of violence. Find Tounsel's book, "Bounds of Blackness African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity" below:https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501775628/bounds-of-blackness/00:00 — Introduction and Overview02:22 — Obama, Darfur, and the Limits of Global Solidarity05:23 — What Would a “Black” Foreign Policy Look Like?08:29 — South Sudan and the Meaning of Independence11:42 — Misconceptions About African Politics and Lived Frustrations16:09 — Black Solidarity, Zionism, and Divided Alignments21:36 — Identity, Race, and the Boundaries of Solidarity25:54 — Black Lives Matter and the Contradictions of Solidarity30:40 — Spivak, Othering, and Who Gets to Speak36:54 — Black Media and the Mobilization of Sudan42:22 — Media Figures, BLM, and Shaping Conflict Narratives46:59 — Media Framing and the Inequality of Attention53:25 — Why Some Genocides Receive More Attention Than Others01:03:17 — Media, Academia, and the Political Economy of Genocide Attention01:11:05 — Social Media, Power, and U.S.–UAE Influence in Sudan01:11:05 — Book Recommendations

Despite the announcement of a ceasefire, conditions in Gaza remain unstable and violence continues to affect civilian life and medical care. Saira Hussain discusses her most recent medical mission to Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, Gaza. Drawing on her experience working in a severely constrained healthcare system, she reflects on the conditions inside the hospital, the practical limits of medical care under blockade, and the ethical decisions clinicians face when equipment, medication, and evacuation options are restricted.The conversation also addresses the psychological strain experienced by humanitarian medical teams, the challenges of speaking publicly about what they witness, and the broader questions this raises for humanitarian institutions, medical ethics, and international accountability.Courtesy footage provided by Saira Hussain.Watch our previous interview with Saira here: https://youtu.be/Qd0nS28iG3M00:00:00 Introduction00:05:21 Third Mission to Gaza: What Changed00:10:07 How Repeated Missions Shape a Doctor00:13:53 What Gazans Say vs Outside Narratives00:16:48 Shared Grief Among Medical Teams00:19:12 Patients vs Doctors: Emotional Differences00:23:02 Short-Term vs Long-Term Medical Staff00:24:26 Why It’s Impossible to Disconnect00:25:27 Humanitarian Heroism00:32:31 Medical Evacuations from Gaza00:32:50 Hidden Trauma Among Medical Workers00:36:02 Collective Anger Inside the Hospital00:37:37 Neutrality and Ethics in War Medicine00:42:07 Anger as a Catalyst for Advocacy00:44:12 Survivor’s Guilt After Returning Home00:46:44 A Shared Language of Humanitarian Grief00:48:59 Risks of Speaking Out About Gaza00:52:08 The Burden of Witnessing Trauma00:54:55 Rethinking Humanitarian Institutions00:58:51 Health of Doctors Working in Gaza01:00:44 Returning to Gaza: Future Goals

We spoke with Catherine Filloux, an award-winning French Algerian American playwright and librettist whose work has engaged human rights, war, and mass atrocity for more than three decades. Her plays and operas have been produced internationally, including in New York, Bosnia, and Cambodia, and she has written extensively about genocide, post-conflict memory, and the moral responsibilities of law and witness.In this conversation, we focus on her play Lemkin’s House, a surreal and deeply human exploration of Raphael Lemkin in the afterlife. We discuss the invention and political life of the word genocide, the tension between law and realpolitik, the burden of “never again,” and how theater can illuminate memory, survivor’s guilt, and moral responsibility without reducing them to simple messages.Catherine reflects on staging genocide for a broad public, on the role of women in conflict narratives, and on how art can function not as instruction, but as a prism through which audiences confront complexity for themselves.00:00 — Opening and Introduction02:22 — Catherine Filloux’s Background and What Drew Her to Writing About Genocide07:15 — How Do You Portray Lemkin’s Complexity for a Broad Public Audience?17:31 — How Does the Play Expose the Legal and Political Controversies Surrounding the Word “Genocide”?23:36 — How Does Lemkin’s House Weave Law, “Never Again,” and the Tension Between Memory and Forgetting?29:21 — Is Lemkin a Hero or a Political Instrument? Humanizing Law, Power, and Realpolitik36:40 — Why Include Dark Humor, Like the Termites Scene, in a Play About Genocide?39:28 — When Suffering Competes: What Does the Play Suggest About Comparative Victimhood?42:21 — How Do You End a Play Set in the Afterlife of Raphael Lemkin?

In this episode, we speak with Omer Bartov about academic silence, Gaza, and the costs of speaking publicly about ongoing mass violence. Bartov reflects on the pressures shaping scholarly speech in the United States, the uneven application of legal and moral frameworks, and what the world’s response to Gaza reveals about whose lives are recognized and protected. He also addresses the personal and professional consequences of speaking out, the limits of academic caution, and the need for structural reform within the academy. These themes are explored further in his forthcoming book, Israel: What Went Wrong?, with link to purchase included in the description below:https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/477841/israel-what-went-wrong-by-bartov-omer/97819117176900:00 Introduction and Biography01:58 Academic Silence on Gaza: Moral Stakes and Scholarly Responsibility12:41 The Personal and Professional Costs of Speaking Out18:06 Pressure, Self-Censorship, and Navigating Institutional Warnings22:38 Silence, Intimidation, and Comparative Academic Climates Across Countries28:36 Gatekeeping, Disciplinary Policing, and the Questioning of Scholarly Authority33:09 Has the Academy Failed a Moral Test or Revealed Structural Limits?39:41 Academic Freedom, Donor Dependency, and the Capitalist University Model47:47 The Future of Holocaust and Genocide Studies in U.S. Higher Education51:02 Past Silence, Present Clarity, and the Ethics of Scholarly Reckoning56:35 Hierarchies of Grievability and the Limits of “Never Again”58:48 Advice to Early-Career Academics Facing Ethical and Professional Risk

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we are joined by Daria Mattingly, a historian whose work focuses on perpetrator studies and the social and cultural history of the Soviet Union, with particular emphasis on Ukraine. The conversation centers on the Holodomor, examining how famine policies were enforced at the village level by rank-and-file actors and perpetrators rather than solely by state elites.Drawing on archival research, memoirs, literature, and oral history, Daria discusses how ordinary people became involved in famine enforcement, the role of youth and women among perpetrators, the use of euphemistic language to obscure violence, and the moral pressures produced by hunger and scarcity. The episode also explores how these perpetrators have been remembered, silenced, or contested in cultural memory within Ukraine and across the diaspora, based on her dissertation “‘Idle, Drunk and Good-for-Nothing’: The Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the 1932–1933 Famine in Ukraine and Their Representation in Cultural Memory” and her forthcoming book Stalin’s Activists.00:00 – Introduction & Guest Background02:35 – Studying Rank-and-File Perpetrators of the Holodomor08:45 – Famine Policies and Legal Enforcement18:34 – Beyond Top Leaders: Grassroots Perpetration26:10 – Youth, Cadres, and Rank-and-File Violence30:11 – Euphemisms, Obedience, and Moral Justifications35:10 – Women Perpetrators and Gendered Representation40:47 – Empathy, Hunger, and Moral Collapse46:05 – Literature, Memoir, and Cultural Evidence49:41 – Memory, Diaspora, and Competing Narratives

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we are joined by Saira Hussain, an anesthetist who has worked in Gaza at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis through humanitarian deployments with Medical Aid for Palestinians and IDEALS.This conversation explores what it means to deliver critical care inside a collapsing health system. Drawing on firsthand experience, Saira discusses blockade conditions, mass-casualty medicine, famine and forced starvation, and the daily ethical and clinical decisions faced by medical professionals working under extreme constraint. The discussion also looks beyond the present moment, asking what rebuilding medical education, infrastructure, and professional capacity might entail in post-conflict settings.This interview was recorded in September 2025, during a period of enforced starvation in Gaza. It remains acutely relevant today, as United Nations reporting indicates that over 400 Palestinians have been killed since the October ceasefire, underscoring the ongoing humanitarian and medical crisis.00:00:00Introduction00:02:37Collapse of Gaza’s Health System00:07:01Why a Doctor Goes to Gaza00:19:36Practicing Medicine Below Standards00:26:00Patient Testimony Under Siege00:28:45Mass Graves Near Medical Facilities00:30:49Blockade, Aid Restrictions, Hospital Failure00:39:43Patterns of War-Related Injuries00:40:14Famine and Enforced Starvation00:44:04What Global Reporting Misses00:46:30Rebuilding Gaza’s Medical Community00:49:30Personal Cost of Medical Witnessing00:50:59Medical Ethics After Atrocity00:53:55Unprecedented Weapons and Trauma00:58:12Aid Sites and Civilian Death01:01:58One Image for the World

In this episode, we speak with David Chandler, historian of Cambodia, biographer of Pol Pot, and leading researcher on the S-21 Prison under the Khmer Rouge, who provided expert testimony at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia in 2009 and 2012. He is joined by Peg LeVine, a medical anthropologist, psychologist, sculptor, and clinician whose work addresses mass killing and torture, and who served as an expert witness at the ECCC in 2016 following her book Love and Dread in Cambodia: Weddings, Births, and Ritual Harm under the Khmer Rouge; both scholars are affiliated with Monash University. Together, they examine the aftermath of genocide and crimes against humanity, the concept of “genocidal priming,” the limits and possibilities of prevention, and how atrocity is narrated from Cambodia to Gaza, Afghanistan, and beyond.We extend our sincere thanks to Tibor Hegedis (videographer, photographer) and Maki LeVine (photographer, art therapist). Their generosity, care, and expertise were integral to the production of this conversation.00:00:00 – Opening00:01:50 – Setting the Context: Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge, and Historical Responsibility00:08:43 – The Problem of Defining Genocide When Victims and Perpetrators Overlap00:12:53 – Genocidal Priming: Identifying Early Warning Signs of Mass Violence00:17:00 – Genocide Prevention in Protracted and Unfinished Conflicts00:20:03 – Beyond Binary Narratives: Complexity, Complicity, and Moral Discomfort00:26:06 – Researching Pol Pot Before the Internet and Modern Archives00:28:47 – Conducting Ethnographic Research Under Post-Genocide Conditions00:35:48 – Challenging Master Narratives and Methodological Assumptions00:42:57 – The Emotional and Psychological Cost of Studying Genocide00:48:29 – Ritualcide: What Happens When Social Rituals Are Destroyed00:52:10 – Would You Choose This Work Again? Reflections on Scholarly Commitment00:54:45 – What Genocide Studies Programs Still Fail to Address00:59:44 – Framing, Retelling History, and the Limits of Narrative Models01:03:15 – The Political Power and Misuse of the Word “Genocide”01:08:54 – Can Scholars Study Genocide From Within a Violent Society?01:13:40 – What Comes Next After Genocide Studies Acknowledges Its Limits?

In this episode, we speak with Amy Fagin, the author and project lead of Beyond Genocide; members of the Beyond Genocide Arts Award Advisory Council—Bjorn Krondorfer, Alexis Herr, and Sabah Carrim—as well as Linda Paganelli, the 2024–2025 award recipient. The conversation examines the Beyond Genocide arts award and exhibition, focusing on artistic responsibility, ethical representation, jury perspectives, and how art engages audiences with histories of mass violence beyond the exhibition space.Find out more at: https://beyondgenocide.net/Chapters00:00 – Opening00:01:57 – Questions the Works Should Raise00:03:51 – Original Vision for the Competition00:07:06 – Hopes for the Competition’s Future00:09:28 – Art’s Contribution to Understanding Violence00:11:03 – Where Artists Enter the Subject00:13:30 – Observed Impact After One Year00:15:43 – Value of Engaging Without Winning00:17:21 – Effect of Historical Distance00:19:18 – Artistic and Ethical Review Criteria00:21:12 – Influence of International Perspectives00:22:36 – Why Choose Beyond Genocide Framework00:24:31 – Desired Audience Experience and Engagement00:29:07 – Audience Engagement Beyond the Competition

In this episode, we’re joined by Alexandra Birch, violinist, historian, and author of Hitler’s Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe.Birch’s research examines how music and sound functioned as tools of power, identity, and violence under totalitarian regimes. Drawing on survivor testimony and archival materials, her work exposes how sound, whether through forced singing, orchestral performance, or ambient noise, became intertwined with the machinery of genocide.In this conversation, we explore:* The concept of musical sadism and its codification in the Nazi camp system* The symbolic and functional use of music in shaping identity and “otherness”* Wagnerian myth, cultural delusion, and the final days of the Third Reich* The lingering echoes of sound violence in memory and trauma* The redemptive potential of recovering silenced music and voicesTo purchase "Hitler’s Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe" follow the link below: https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/9781487549206#:~:text=This%20book%20demonstrates%20the%20integral,formation%20in%20the%20Third%20Reich.00:00 – Opening01:41 – Introduction02:09 – Kurt Franz and the Orchestration of Musical Sadism07:01 – Musical Sadism or Sound Abatement11:55 – Music, Otherness, and the Making of the Subaltern17:31 – Valhalla Burns: Wagner and the Myth of the Nazi Endgame22:04 – Listening Before Killing: The Psychology of Perpetrator Soundtracks27:23 – Songs vs. Symphonies: Edward Westermann on Lyrics, Meaning, and Violence32:22 – Singing the Reich: Music Education and Indoctrination37:15 – Total Sound Violence: The Concept of Gesamtgewalttätigklang42:20 – The Motif of Redemption: Remembering Silenced Voices48:35 – AI and Holocaust Memory: Ethics, Education, and Reconstruction

In this conversation, Mehnaz Afridi—Professor of Religion and Philosophy and Director of the Holocaust, Genocide, and Interfaith Education Center at Manhattan University—discusses her groundbreaking work “Shoah Through Muslim Eyes”, the overlooked stories of Muslims in the Holocaust, the challenges of teaching about Zionism and antisemitism, and the urgent need for interfaith dialogue in today’s polarized world.00:00:00 – Opening00:01:32 – Introduction00:02:10 – Why a Muslim Scholar Wrote on the Holocaust00:05:45 – Reactions to Holocaust Testimonies at the Omaha Conference00:10:50 – Forgotten Stories: Muslims Who Died in the Holocaust00:16:46 – Gen Z, Zionism, and Making Sense of History00:24:07 – Islam, Antisemitism in Egypt, and Shared Lessons00:29:31 – Teaching the Shoah: Risks, Backlash, and Empathy00:35:01 – Islamophobia After 9/11 and Efforts to Humanize Communities00:36:48 – Practical Steps to Build Tolerance and Understanding

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we speak with Bruce Robbins—Columbia University professor and author of Atrocity: A Literary History. Drawing on his recent book, we explore how literature grapples with the representation of mass violence, and examine his work through the lens of genocide studies.We explore questions about prolepsis and historical inevitability, the role of ethnocentrism in genocide narratives, and the shifting nature of violence through thinkers like Nietzsche, Foucault, and Pinker. Robbins also reflects on the personal and institutional consequences of his public teaching, including his support for student activism.The episode features audience questions from Chigbo Arthur Anyaduba, Associate Professor at the University of Winnipeg.00:00:00 – Opening00:01:42 – How the Term “Genocide” Became Common00:06:55 – Literature Review on Atrocity and Violence00:13:57 – Avoiding Simplified Good vs. Evil Narratives00:18:29 – Writing About Atrocity Without Exaggeration00:19:42 – Ethnocentrism’s Role in Atrocity00:26:03 – Nietzsche, Sadism, and Humanization in Violence00:27:09 – Plunder in War: Historical and Modern Examples00:36:47 – Marx and Foucault on Changing Forms of Violence00:38:05 – Why “Violence” Is Often Missing in Genocide Studies00:41:01 – Are Modern Societies Less Violent?00:43:27 – How Publishing Influences Atrocity Narratives00:48:46 – Audience Q1: Does Foreshadowing Misrepresent Violence?00:50:32 – Audience Q2: Addressing Eurocentrism in the Book00:52:51 – Gaza Encampment, Teaching Risk, and Institutional Pushback

DescriptionIn this episode, we speak with Ava Homa—award-winning author of Daughters of Smoke and Fire and Echoes from the Other Land—about Kurdish identity, structural violence, and the cycles of oppression in Iran. Homa discusses the intersection of literature and activism, the emotional and political risks of storytelling, and the global forces that shape—and often distort—struggles for justice. With questions from hosts and a special contribution by Kurdish poet Sarwa Azeez, the conversation moves from personal to geopolitical, examining how resistance, complicity, and survival co-exist in authoritarian contexts.Chapter Timestamps & Titles00:00 - Opening and Introduction  01:49 - The Emotional Core of "Daughters of Smoke and Fire*" 03:09 - Moral Ambiguity and Structural Violence  05:44 - Beauty as Power, Punishment, and Survival  09:28 - Fiction, Nonfiction, and Political Mythologies  11:42 - Regime Repetition and Global Complicity  15:43 - Kurdish Abandonment and Western Hypocrisy  19:05 - Civil Society and the Future of Iran  22:10 - Nationalism, Trauma, and Regime Control  24:33 - Western Narratives of Unity After Violence  28:32 - Personal Risk in Telling the Story  30:24 - Responding to War from Within the Oppressed  33:40 - On Calls for Regime Change  35:59 - Advice to U.S. Minority Communities  38:46 - Kurdish Identity and the Broader Iranian Struggle  

In this episode, we speak with Roni Mikel Arieli, a cultural historian and Teaching and Research Fellow at the Rabb Center for Holocaust Studies, Ben Gurion University of the Negev. Mikel Arieli specializes in modern Jewish history, African studies, Holocaust and genocide studies, and memory studies. We dive into her work on Jewish detainees exiled to Mauritius during World War II—a story of colonial entanglement, survival, and remembrance.Her book Remembering the Holocaust in a Racial State: Holocaust Memory in South Africa from Apartheid to Democracy (1948–1994) (De Gruyter, 2022) expands on themes of memory and power. You can read her recent articles on deportation, digital Holocaust memory, and anti-fascism in South Africa, down below!📖 Selected works:“The Jewish Question in the British Colonial Imagination” – Jewish Social Studies (2023): https://muse.jhu.edu/article/873285“What We Talk About When We Talk About Digital Holocaust Memory” – The Communication Review (2023): https://doi.org/10.1080/10714421.2023.2177489“The Great Trek Towards Nazism” – South African Historical Journal (2022): https://doi.org/10.1080/02582473.2021.2009014Book: Remembering the Holocaust in a Racial State (2022): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110715545VIDEO TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 | Intro – Interview with Dr. Roni Mikel Arieli00:01:51 | Why were 1,581 Jewish detainees sent to Mauritius in 1940?00:31:48 | How did detainees respond to Shertok calling Beau Bassin a “British Dachau”?00:41:23 | What sources and testimonies informed your research?00:48:05 | How did Genevieve Pitot’s and Nathacha Appanah’s works relate to yours?00:57:33 | How have family, friends, and scholars responded to your research?01:06:34 | Were there any surprising moments during your research?

🎙️ In this episode, we sit down with Zachariah Mampilly—Marxe Endowed Chair of International Affairs at CUNY and co-founder of the Program on African Social Research—to unpack the deep historical and geopolitical roots of the ongoing conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo.We explore how the 1994 Rwandan genocide and subsequent regional wars laid the foundation for instability in the DRC, the rise and resurgence of the M23 rebel group, and the roles of Rwanda and Uganda in the region. Mampilly also reflects on the failures of international peacekeeping, the power of Congolese civil society movements like LUCHA, and what the future may hold for governance and security in the Great Lakes region.🕒 Chapters included in the video📌 Scroll down for chapter markers to navigate key topics and questions.00:00 – Opening01:29 – Guest Introduction: Dr. Zachariah Mampilly01:54 – How the Rwandan Genocide Set the Stage for DRC Conflict03:39 – The First Congo War and the Rise of M2305:21 – M23’s Origins, Evolution, and Ethnonationalism09:53 – M23: Rwandan Proxy or Independent Actor?13:20 – Comparing M23’s Current Resurgence to 2012–201318:24 – Rethinking UN Peacekeeping in the DRC22:12 – Civil Society Responses: The Rise and Role of LUCHA28:01 – Uganda’s Overlooked Role in the Conflict33:38 – Resource Trafficking and Economic Interests37:08 – What Lies Ahead for the DRC?40:34 – Civil Society’s Role in Regional Peace43:57 – Under-Discussed Issues in the DRC Conflict📢 Subscribe to stay updated on upcoming interviews on politics and memory in global conflict zones.

In this episode, we are joined by Yair Wallach, Chair of the Centre for Jewish Studies at SOAS, University of London, to discuss the January 2025 ceasefire agreement between Israel and Gaza officials.The conversation examines the immediate and ongoing impacts of the ceasefire, including humanitarian aid access, the temporary pause in hostilities, and the challenges of maintaining peace amid Israeli military operations in Jenin. Yair Wallach also explores the political dynamics shaping the ceasefire’s future, as well as the broader implications for the region.This episode provides critical insight into one of the most pressing developments in the Middle East today.Let us know your thoughts in the comments, and don’t forget to subscribe for future episodes.#MiddleEast #GazaCeasefire #Israel #Palestine #Politics #CurrentEvents #genocideingaza00:00 - Opening01:18 - Introduction02:01 - War Goals: Were They Achieved by Hamas and Israel?07:51 - Who Won the War: A Genuine Victory or a Pyrrhic One?10:49 - Operation Iron Wall: Ongoing Conflict in Jenin Despite Ceasefire15:59 - The May 2024 Agreement: Why Did It Fail, and What Changed?17:56 - The Ceasefire: A Hiatus or a Genuine Step Forward?26:44 - Palestinian Islamic Jihad: Role and Goals Compared to Hamas27:47 - Hamas as a Political and Military Entity: Prospects for Long-Term Peace30:38 - The Olmert-Kidwa Peace Plan: A Feasible Blueprint for Peace?36:44 - Steve Witkoff’s Inspection Team: Diplomacy or Political Provocation?39:52 - US Diplomacy and Power in Israel44:43 - Sanctions Lifted: Impact of Trump’s Decision on Violence51:07 - How Will History Remember the Gaza Conflict?54:56 - Genocide vs. Ethnic Cleansing59:29 - Ethos and Credibility: Who Should Write About the Middle East?

In this interview, historian and sociologist Uğur Ümit Üngör discusses the controversy and complication over the use of the “g-word” (genocide), as well as the damage done to humanity because some genocides are deemed “more equal” than others. Drawing on his expertise in genocide and mass atrocity in the Middle East, he discusses how these issues intersect with the ongoing conflicts in Israel and Palestine. Chapter Timestamps00:00 - Opening01:17 - Introduction01:40 - Challenges of the Term "Genocide"10:01 - Debates Over the Usage and Implications of "Genocide"17:01 - Academic Perspectives: Are Scholars Addressing Genocide Effectively?20:29 - "Screaming, Silence, and Mass Violence in Israel/Palestine"23:56 - Conflict Hotspots in and around the Middle East29:36 - How Genocide is Viewed on the Global Stage36:34 - Insights from The Antelope’s Strategy by Jean Hatzfeld38:21 - Taking Action: Concrete Steps to Prevent Genocide43:07 - Social Media’s Role in Activism and Genocide Prevention47:41 - Why People Prefer to use "Genocide" Over “War Crimes” or “Crimes Against Humanity”51:26 - Exploring the Roots of Violence and Conflict54:29 - "Genocide Studies Sound Meant to Be Politically Expedient or Emotionally Safe"

Join us for an insightful conversation with Arie M. Dubnov, Jewish-Israeli historian and associate professor at George Washington University. Dubnov discusses the complexities of genocide studies, the role of oral histories in the Holocaust, and its influence on understanding genocide. He also touches on academic freedom, populist media challenges, and his work "Agnotology in Palestine/Israel".

Join us for an insightful conversation with Omar Yousef Shehabi, an acting assistant professor at NYU School of Law and a JSD candidate at Yale Law School. With a wealth of experience working as a legal officer for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and other international organizations, Omar provides a unique perspective on the complexities and challenges faced by Palestinian refugees.

Join us for an enriching conversation with Zukiswa Wanner, acclaimed writer and activist, as she shares insights from Johannesburg, South Africa. In this interview, Zukiswa reflects on her literary achievements, activism, and firsthand experiences in Palestine. Tune in for an inspiring conversation!

Join us in conversation with Alex Hinton, Director of the Center for the Study of Genocide and Human Rights, Distinguished Professor of Anthropology, and UNESCO Chair in Genocide Prevention at Rutgers University. In this interview, we delve into the role of The Engaged Scholar and the pedagogical merits of Genocide Studies. Tune in for valuable insights into these critical issues.

Join us as we're privileged to host Dirk Moses, the Anne N. Bernard Spitzer Professor of Political Science at City University of New York and author of 'The Problems of Genocide: Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression.' Tune in as we examine the critical questions of genocide research, including reflections on the recent situation in Israel and Gaza.

In this episode, Jermaine McCalpin joins us for an in-depth conversation on the overlooked 1972 genocide in Burundi. We discuss the historical and political conditions that led to the violence, the colonial construction of ethnic identities, and why Burundi remains absent from most global genocide narratives. Drawing from his fieldwork and oral history projects, McCalpin reflects on the challenges of memory, reconciliation, and international recognition, and shares insights from leading student research trips to the region.00:00 | Introduction & Biography01:52 | Overview of the 1972 Burundi Genocide05:52 | Specific Causes and Political Context in Burundi09:24 | Pre-Colonial Social Divisions and Belgian Reinforcement13:58 | Why the Burundian Genocide Is Marginalized16:35 | Fieldwork and Student Research Trips to Burundi18:33 | Student Reflections and Key Moments from the Field20:37 | Teaching Genocide: Preparing Students for Difficult Topics22:52 | Testimonies and Survivor Stories25:16 | The Reconciliation Process in Burundi29:47 | International Actors and Forced Reconciliation Models35:18 | Role of the International Community37:09 | Post-Genocide Ethnic Dynamics in Burundi Today39:37 | Public Perception of Instability and Violence41:53 | Intergenerational Legacies of Genocide47:22 | Ethnic Identity and Storytelling in Burundi48:13 | Education and Genocide Memory51:11 | Global Support for Burundi’s Healing and Recognition

Join us for a powerful conversation with Thierry Cruvellier, Editor-in-Chief of JusticeInfo.net and author of Court of Remorse and The Master of Confessions, as he reflects on his decades-long journey reporting on international tribunals and transitional justice. In this episode, we delve into the politics behind the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR), the ethical challenges of documenting mass atrocities, and what justice means in the aftermath of genocide. 📚 Learn more about Thierry's work at justiceinfo.net 🔔 Subscribe for more conversations on justice, memory, and accountability#GenocideStudies #InternationalLaw #Rwanda #ThierryCruvellier #JusticeInfo #ICTR #TransitionalJustice #HumanRights #Podcast #NotToForgiveButToUnderstandChapter Timestamps:00:00:00 Introduction00:01:51 What Drew You to the Khmer Rouge and Rwanda Trials?00:08:16 On Arendt’s Absences: Navigating Bias in Trial Reporting00:12:21 Génocidaire, Real Justice, and the Reckoning with Sexual Violence in the ICTR00:18:25 Reflections with Hindsight: The Complexities of the Rwandan Genocide00:23:43 What was the most difficult part of collecting material for your books?00:28:23 Examples of the imperfections and mediocrity of the trial system00:31:31 How do the shortcomings of the ICTR compare with those of the gacaca trials?00:39:20 What important local factors were overlooked by the international tribunal?00:45:00 Where does Rwanda stand today on reconciliation, and why did this matter to you during your research?01:00:16 The 1991 Rwandan military report and what it reveals about the planning of the genocide01:07:03 What reflections or advice would you offer that haven’t appeared in your books?

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we speak with Kjell Anderson, jurist, social scientist, and expert on mass violence, about the complexities of victim-perpetrators through the case of Dominic Ongwen. We explore the intersection of international law, transitional justice, and the challenges of categorizing perpetrators who were victims themselves. From the use of neuroscience in Ongwen’s trial to the broader implications for legal justice, this conversation critically examines the limitations of binary thinking in international criminal law.🔔 Subscribe for more discussions on genocide studies, justice, and human rights.#DominicOngwen #InternationalJustice #VictimPerpetrators #GenocideStudies #HumanRights #TransitionalJustice #NotToForgiveButToUnderstand #Podcast00:00:00 – Introduction00:01:43 – Who is Dominic Ongwen, and why has scholarly interest in him surged in recent years?00:05:22 – How does Ongwen’s case compare to Primo Levi’s ‘Grey Zone’ concept of victim-perpetrators?00:10:35 – Why is embracing complexity in scholarship crucial, especially in legal and historical analysis?00:15:33 – How does the binary nature of trials impact cases involving victim-perpetrators?00:20:27 – How was neuroscience evidence used in Ongwen’s trial, and was it handled effectively?00:27:51 – Why is the legal system often perceived as pure, despite its inherent chaos?00:35:24 – How did Ongwen’s beliefs in magic influence his actions, and why do Western tribunals overlook such factors?00:46:08 – Does international transitional justice reflect colonial dominance, or are we in a post-colonial era?00:48:22 – What makes your research unique, and what gaps did your book address?00:52:03 – What major insights did you gain from studying Ongwen’s case?00:54:00 – Was the ICC’s judgment on Ongwen fair, and what are its implications for future cases?00:58:01 – What common misconceptions exist about child soldiers?01:01:43 – Given the limitations of legal institutions, are international trials truly just, or are they often predetermined?

Leyla Ferman: A Decade After the Yazidi GenocideIn this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we speak with Leyla Ferman, Co-Founder of the Yazidi Justice Committee and Director of Women for Justice, about the ongoing fight for justice a decade after the Yazidi genocide. We discuss the legal battles and the resilience of survivors. Featuring selected artworks by Falah Kaboo, as highlighted in Sarwa Azeez’s article Beyond Mourning: Art as Healing a Decade After the Yazidi Genocide.Special thanks to Sarwa Azeez, Falah Kaboo, and Genocide Studies and Prevention: An International Journal for allowing us to share their work.🔔 Subscribe for more discussions on genocide studies, justice, and human rights.#YazidiGenocide #JusticeForYazidis #HumanRights #GenocideStudies #SurvivorStories #NotToForgiveButToUnderstand #Podcast00:00:00 | Opening00:01:30 | Introduction00:01:59 | Why have the Yazidis been targeted by ISIS?00:03:32 | Historical persecution of the Yazidis00:06:21 | Why does ISIS consider the Yazidis ‘Kuffar’? Misconceptions about Tawûsî Melek00:09:57 | Saddam Hussein’s involvement in Yazidi persecution00:13:10 | The connection between the Kurds and the Yazidis00:16:40 | How ISIS misinterpreted the Quran for their own benefit & legal ramifications00:20:58 | The treatment of Yazidi women by ISIS & legal actions against perpetrators00:24:30 | How has universal jurisdiction been exercised in favor of the Yazidi community against some of the ISIS perpetrators?00:27:17 | Why is a genocide declaration not the end of the fight for justice?00:29:57 | Skepticism about 'Never Again'—is genocide prevention effective?00:36:58 | What does genocide prevention look like in practice?00:42:54 | The Yazidi Female Survivors Law & its effectiveness00:45:45 | U.S. troop withdrawal and its impact on Yazidi security00:47:32 | The role of bystanders in genocide and mass atrocities00:53:41 | Survivor experiences—insights from working with Yazidi survivors00:56:18 | Why do some survivors choose silence over testimony?00:58:42 | What leads a survivor to change their decision to speak out?01:02:43 | The universality of human suffering and genocide01:04:32 | The linguistic connection between the name ‘Ferman’ and the Yazidi term for genocide

In this episode, we sit down with Craig Etcheson to explore his experiences conducting groundbreaking research on the Khmer Rouge and his role in the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia (ECCC). We delve into the continued activities of the Khmer Rouge, the challenges of balancing justice and negotiation, and how narratives surrounding the Cambodian Genocide have evolved over time. Craig shares insights on genocide's legal constitution, the unique challenges faced by post-conflict societies, and parallels between international tribunals. He also offers advice for scholars and reflects on the human capacity for extraordinary evil.00:00:00 Opening and Introduction00:01:42 Insights from Research on the Khmer Rouge00:04:03 Ongoing Activities of the Khmer Rouge Post-197900:06:57 Balancing Justice and Diplomacy in Negotiations00:09:15 Reflecting on Choices: What Could Have Been Done Differently?00:13:34 Evolving Narratives: How Research Shaped Our Understanding00:15:44 Defining Genocide: The Case of Cambodia00:18:21 The Naming of Genocide00:19:55 Finding Workarounds: Challenges in Addressing Genocide00:22:05 Lessons for Post-Conflict Societies from Cambodia00:24:27 Historical Precedents in Transitional Justice00:27:04 Comparing the ECCC and Sierra Leone’s Special Court00:28:37 The Future of International Tribunals: What’s Next?00:31:45 Career Advice for Aspiring Scholars and Practitioners00:33:40 Exploring Creative Writing00:38:04 What Are We Still Missing in Understanding Genocide?00:43:13 The Impact of "Othering" on Personal and Professional Work00:45:44 Key Advice for Researchers in Genocide Studies00:47:58 Grappling with the Concept of Extraordinary Evil

In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, Sabah Carrim speaks with Ben Mauk and Nyrola Elimä about their investigation published in The New York Times. The article, titled “The Long Road from Xinjiang” in print and “He Made a Daring Escape From China. Then His Real Troubles Began” online, explores the journey of Hasan Imam, a Uyghur refugee fleeing repression in Xinjiang. The discussion delves into Hasan's story and the broader implications of China's transnational oppression. Ben and Nyrola share insights from their years-long investigation, highlighting the extreme challenges Uyghurs face both within China and beyond its borders.

In this interview, musicologist Morag Grant, specializing in the intersections of music, violence, and human rights, discusses the ways music has been used in contexts such as mass violence, torture, and genocide. She examines its role in shaping group identity and facilitating acts of violence, as well as its presence in both historical and contemporary detention practices. This conversation provides valuable insights into the complex relationship between music and social behaviors.

In this episode, we sit down with Jeanine Ntihirageza, an expert in linguistics, refugee studies, and human rights in Africa. Jeanine shares insights from her recent work, “Education and Epistemicide in Africa: Towards an Ubuntu-Based Comprehensive Model of Education.” She explores the concept of epistemicide and its implications for educational practices in post-conflict contexts, challenging us to reconsider how education can serve as a tool for healing and empowerment. Join us for a compelling discussion that reimagines the role of education in addressing historical injustices and fostering resilience in communities.

In this episode of 'Not to Forgive, but to Understand,' we sit down with Micki Pistorius, psychologist, author, and profiler. She initiated the Investigative Psychology Unit in the South African Police Service in 1994 and profiled more than 30 serial killers. Her autobiography Catch me a Killer has been turned into a television series. Follow her onhttps://mickipistorius.co.za/https://www.patreon.com/MickiPistoriushttps://www.youtube.com/@MickiPistoriusProfilerOnRecordYou can watch Micki's interview with Sabah titled on "Genocide and Serial Killings: Are there similarities?" on her Patreon link here:https://www.patreon.com/posts/genocide-and-are-109684512?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_fan&utm_content=web_shareJoin us for a thought-provoking conversation that challenges our conventional understanding of perpetrators.

In this episode of 'Not to Forgive, but to Understand,' we sit down with Edward B. Westermann, Regents Professor of History at Texas A&M University-San Antonio and a renowned scholar on the Holocaust and military history. Westermann discusses the insights from his latest book, 'Drunk on Genocide: Alcohol and Mass Murder in Nazi Germany,' and explores the critical role alcohol played in facilitating Nazi atrocities. He delves into the performative masculinity and bonding rituals among perpetrators, drawing parallels to modern contexts of violence. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that challenges conventional understandings of genocide and human behavior.

In this episode we sit down with Chigbo Arthur Anyaduba, a scholar specializing in African and African/Black Diaspora literatures and the cultural representations of genocides. Arthur discusses his recent work, 'Memory/Remedy: Against the Soothsayer’s Practice,' and provides a thought-provoking critique of using memory as a solution for past atrocities. He challenges the notion that remembering alone can prevent future violence and emphasizes the need for addressing the underlying structures that perpetuate conflict. Join us for an in-depth conversation that rethinks traditional approaches to transitional justice.

In this episode, we welcome Henry C. Theriault, Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs at Worcester State University. Theriault delves into his research on genocide denial, prevention, and reparations, discussing his work with the Armenian Genocide Reparations Study Group. Join us as we explore the complexities of post-genocide relations, mass violence against women and girls, and the quest for justice and accountability in the aftermath of atrocities.

Don't miss our captivating interview with Ben Meiches, a distinguished scholar in global politics and international law. Delving into his groundbreaking article published in the Journal of Genocide Research, Ben unpacks the fascinating relationship between neuroscience, mental harm, and international law. Tune in to explore the innovative approaches shaping contemporary discourse on genocide.

Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Juli Berwald, an acclaimed ocean scientist, and author, along with her father Dr. David Berwald, mother Gail, and nephew Max Stein. Together, they share a poignant family journey rooted in the Holocaust, as depicted in a collection of letters discovered after the passing of Juli's grandmother. Dive into this moving exploration of history, resilience, and the power of familial connection.

Join us as we're privileged to host Amy Frake, Associate Director of Education at Holocaust Museum Houston. Amy shares insights into the museum's impactful Education Department, which brings Holocaust education directly to schools. Gain valuable perspectives on the impact of historical education and the role of museums in fostering understanding and empathy, as Amy delves into her experiences and expertise in this critical field.

Join us for an insightful discussion with Robert Tally, professor of English at Texas State University. Tally is the author of numerous books, including Kurt Vonnegut and the American Novel: A Postmodern Iconography. In this episode, we delve into the moral dilemmas, thematic depths, and the presence of Adolf Eichmann in Kurt Vonnegut's prolific work, Mother Night (1961).

Join us for an insightful interview with Christian Gudehus, a faculty member at Ruhr Universität Bochum and former editor-in-chief of Genocide Studies and Prevention. Christian is also the co-founder of HARM, a journal of hostility, aggression, repression, and malice. In this episode, we delve into the complexities of good writing and the challenges faced by writers in the field. Tune in to learn more about changing how we cite and write.