Overtired

Brett records an episode without Christina and Jeff and chats with Melissa Davis (The Mac Mommy) about her start as a mommy blogger and longtime Mac podcaster, her tech-support work, and the strange lack of closure when online friends disappear. They trade mental-health and chronic-illness updates, Adderall vs. Vyvanse, difficulty finding curious doctors, and being labeled “worried well.” Don’t worry, they nerd out on mechanical keyboards, Karabiner, and remapping keys. GrAPPtitudes include Bartender 6 Pro, Sortio for AI tagging, Sketch Party TV, and Karabiner. Sponsor OneSkin improves your skincare routine with science-backed skin care products. With over 10,000 five-star reviews and validation from clinical studies, OneSkin has made a name for itself in the skincare industry. If you’re interested in trying OneSkin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code OVERTIRED at oneskin.co/OVERTIRED. Chapters 00:00 Meet Melissa Davis 00:56 Early Podcast Days 02:20 Tech Support Seniors 05:52 Digital Legacy Work 06:50 Sponsor: OneSkin 08:14 Mental Health Check In 08:34 Insomnia And Focus 13:19 Doing Time Tracker 16:04 Suspenders And Stenosis 20:18 Mobility And Home Hacks 22:10 Melissa Health Update 23:25 ADHD Meds And Mutations 25:25 Curious Doctors Matter 27:59 Vyvanse Vs Adderall 30:26 Tracking Mood With Data 32:27 Cane And Somatic Therapy 36:09 Somatics For EDS 36:50 Yoga Modifications 38:19 Polycystic Liver Shock 39:20 Fatphobia In Healthcare 40:56 Pole Dancing Reality Check 41:55 Mechanical Keyboard ASMR 45:56 Nail Art And Picking 49:09 Keyboard Layout Rabbit Hole 01:00:59 Shortcuts And Muscle Memory 01:03:12 GrAPPtitude App Picks 01:14:07 Karabiner Power Tips 01:17:30 Wrap Up And Thanks Show Links hEDS Doing Timing Royal Kludge Keyboard Gamakey Silent Linear Switches EPOMAKER Switch Benefit Section EPOMAKER AegisSil Keycaps Set SketchParty TV Karabiner Sortio Bartender Pro Day One Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Nails and Keys with Melissa Davis (The Mac Mommy) [00:00:00] Meet Melissa Davis Brett: Hey, this is Brett Terpstra. I am without my usual cohorts, Christina and Jeff. Um, so I, I wanted to, you know, get a, get an episode out for all of you listeners, and I reached out to Melissa Davis, known as The Mac Mommy. Um, I don’t, I, I don’t know if they’re still known as The Mac Mommy, but in m- in my lifetime they have been. Um, Melissa, why don’t you introduce yourself, let people know, like, M-Ma- long time, like Mac personality, podcaster. Tell us where you came from. Melissa: Where did I come from? Outer space. Uh, I came from being a mom. I, I, I will admit, this is hard to admit, But I will admit I started out as a mommy blogger. That’s, like, kind of a bad word nowadays. Brett: back, back, yeah, this is way Back when Melissa: [00:01:00] Yeah. Early Podcast Days Melissa: so we’re talking, like… Well, my oldest is gonna be 20, Brett. My oldest is gonna be 20 this summer. End of, end of June he’ll be 20 years old. So that’s about how long I’ve been doing podcasting. I mean, I started, I started, like, when… Well, you know what? I started listening to Adam Christianson’s The MacCast Brett: But you know what? I started Sure. Like one of the very first podcasts, Yeah. Melissa: still, I still listen to him on the Mac Geek Gab. Like, his voice is just so soothing to me. I used to… Like, that was the f- Back when I had, I had, I remember I had, like, an old G4, uh, Quicksilver Mac, and in the stinky little back room of our old house. And I used to, I used to download the podcasts, burn them on a CD, put them in my Walkman, ’cause I didn’t have an iPod yet at the time. I wasn’t that… I was never really that cutting edge. And I’d burn them on a CD, I’d put the CD in my Walkman, and then I would sit and nurse, I would nurse my baby. I, [00:02:00] and I would have to tuck the, uh, the headphones, you know, I’d have the ear- the, the wired, kinda like I have now, uh, and tuck it behind my back, like, behind my shoulder, because otherwise he’d, like, yank on the cord. And I would just listen to podcasts while I nursed. And I… And then, uh, then I met Victor Cajiao, and I started just kind of being, like, a serial podcaster, showing up here and there, and then it just kinda grew from there. Tech Support Seniors Melissa: Um, and I do… So I do tech support. I’m an IT tech s- tech support person. I… People call me their computer guru. I mostly work with, uh, the senior population, our, our vintage people, which I, I’m slowly becoming one of them. We’re all, we’re all gonna go that way. Brett: I feel like anyone who does Mac tech support deals with probably an, a, a population that skews older. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s actually, it’s actually more– I will say it’s actually more difficult to work with somebody younger. Like, especially people my age or people [00:03:00] that are like, say, in their sixties I consider pretty young, 70 even. Uh, yeah, so but it’s, you know, the people are so, so interesting. You can learn so much. I love working with this population because they’re like encyclopedias, and the stories they tell you and the things you learn, it’s pretty amazing. And I could just, I could just spend– I have actually spent all day with some of them. Some of us just have really great chemistry and, you know, it’s… They– I, I’m also– I have ADHD, that’s no secret. And I think when you get older, um, not– it doesn’t affect everybody, but I do see a lot of what could be either they, they have ADHD or it’s like a– Brett: they have Melissa: of creeps in and it’s just a natural process of aging, cognitive decline. So, yep. Brett: have a lot of patience. Sure. S- some of my, some of my most interesting relationships over the last 10 years have been with, uh, Mac users in their late 70s, [00:04:00] 80s. And, uh, like they’ve been– They’re very– Like, they’re definitely… The people that I’ve known have been technically capable and very interested in learning. That’s why they follow me. That’s how I meet them, right? They’re like, they read my blog, which is just all nerd stuff. And, and so they’re, they’re technically competent, and they’re doing things that I can only aspire to be doing in my 70s and 80s. Um, I had a guy who was writing his memoirs at, in between like mountain bike rides. And so here’s the thing, though, is when you, when you know someone online and they’re in their 80s and you stop hearing from them for a Melissa: Yes. Yes. Brett: you have to assume that they have passed on. and that is sad, and you never really get any closure because you don’t know their friends or family. You [00:05:00] never get like a notice, an obituary. You don’t, you don’t know where these people go, um, and you don’t know how to check in on them once your normal channels of communication are severed. Melissa: Yeah, we’re at that age where we probably start reading the obituaries. Like, I haven’t heard from so-and-so in a while. Let me check the obits." Brett: I had, I had– Before NVUltra went on for, what’s it, like five years now, uh, without a release, um, I had a project called BitWriter with David Halter. And Melissa: remember you mentioning that, yeah. Yeah, and you wondered. Mm-hmm. Brett: he stopped responding. Melissa: you find out any at all? Any, Any, concrete… Brett: Nothing. I have put feelers out everywhere I can think of. I have no idea what happened to him. Melissa: went Richard Simmons, huh? Brett: yeah. Yeah. With less Melissa: No contact. No contact. Aw. Digital Legacy Work Melissa: I, I’m lucky that, uh, in my line of [00:06:00] work, I do typically hear from the family if they’ve passed on, because I form kind of a bond with a lot of people. I, I typically don’t lose clients unless they die, so… Brett: and you have some, like, in real life connections to Melissa: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do, I do both. I do… I have some clients where I’ve never met them in person, I’ve only ever done remote. Uh, and then, but most of my clients are, are local, the majority of them. But I, I still s- see them remotely too, so yeah. I’ve, I’ve actually been hired by some people, um, mostly I’ve had two male clients who they got a terminal illness, they knew they were terminal, and they followed me online and they pretty much hired me to take care of their surviving spouse. So that, that was… that’s a difficult thing, but I’m just honored that they chose me to, to help them out with that. So I’ve kind of been a bit of a digital undertaker in that regard. Sponsor: OneSkin Christina: I want to take a moment to share something that has significantly improved my skincare routine, OneSkin. [00:07:00] So we all have those days when our skin doesn’t feel its best, and I’ve certainly been in that boat, especially recovering from surgery. And I was tired of navigating through endless products that promised results, but often fell short. And that’s when I discovered OneSkin. It was founded by scientists dedicated to longevity, and this brand stands out for its commitment to real science over marketing hype. They tackle the fundamental question of how to actually slow down skin aging rather than just masking it. And their groundbreaking ingredient is, uh, ZeroS01, and it’s a proprietary peptide designed to help deactivate the damaged cells that contribute to aging skin. Since incorporating OneSkin into my routine, I’ve actually been noticing some improvements. My skin feels smoother. It looks more vibrant. Um, it’s definitely more moisturized, and so this is benefiting from its focus on supporting collagen and strengthening the skin barrier. With over 10,000 five-star reviews and validation from clinical studies, OneSkin has made a name for itself in the skincare industry. If [00:08:00] you’re interested in trying OneSkin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code OVERTIRED at oneskin.co/overtired. That’s 15% off at oneskin.co/overtired using the code OVERTIRED. Thank you for supporting our show by checking them out Mental Health Check In Brett: Um, so do you wanna do a mental health Melissa: Sure. Brett: I, I know, I know you’ve listened to the show before. I know you know how this works. Melissa: how this works. Brett: Would you like to start? Melissa: I think I would like to hear you start, and then I’ll, I’ll add on Brett: that sounds good. Insomnia And Focus Brett: Um, so sleep continues to be a major issue for me. Um, I actually for four days in a row last week, I got eight hours of sleep a night, which was insane. I felt so good. Um- The first night… So I take [00:09:00] Lamictal for bipolar, and if I miss my evening dose, I crash and I sleep in the next morning, and I sleep soundly. Like, it’s the best sleep I can get. And then I wake up and all of a sudden the withdrawal kicks in, and then I’m shaky and dizzy for half an hour after I take the dose. Um, but that’s after, like, a solid night of sleep, and it never works two nights in a row. And, like, I’ve tried, like, maybe if I take Lamictal in the mornings instead of the evenings, maybe I’ll sleep through the night. It doesn’t work after that first missed dose. Um, but then I just, without making any changes in my lifestyle, started sleeping, and I thought finally after, like, two years of insomnia, I had turned a corner, because I can’t remember the last time I got eight hours of sleep for more than two nights in a [00:10:00] row. And then it ended, and then I was up. I’ve been up since 2:30 today. Melissa: I wondered, yep. Brett: I mean, I went to bed at 8:00, so that’s still nine, 10, 11, 12, 11, Melissa: I actually dozed off on the couch around 8:30. Like, if only I could just be in my bed right now, just be, like, transported. Yeah. Oh. Brett: Oh, I, I wish. If I could go back to bed… Like, sometimes I’ll, I’ll lay back down around 7:00 or 8:00 and get, like, another half hour of sleep, but it’s really that, like, uninterrupted block of deep sleep that I need, not… I take naps during the day, and I can usually fall asleep for half an hour, um, given that I’m usually functioning on five hours of sleep anyway. But anyway, um, I– That, that’s just kind of par for the course for me, so, like, any, any of our listeners know that that’s gonna be the first thing I report. Melissa: are you, [00:11:00] like, kinda competing? Like, are you trying to get eight hours because that’s what’s prescribed? Have you ever thought about Brett: be- actually, what works eight and a half, like I’ve, I’ve… Back when I had the option to sleep more than five hours, like, I did a lot of kind of experimentation and Melissa: know where your sweet spot is. Brett: Well, it… See, the sweet pot- spot changes as you age, though, and you need less sleep as you get older. So, so I can’t say for sure that eight and a half hours is still my sweet spot. Um, and I think honestly, if I can sleep seven hours, I feel pretty good, and I consider seven hours a good night’s sleep. Melissa: Yeah, ’cause mine’s like between four and six. Brett: really? Yeah. See, Melissa: feel Brett: I don’t function well. Oh, I don’t function well on anything less than seven hours. Melissa: I just have a love-hate relationship with sleep. I just don’t– I just hate to sleep. I just would rather be doing other things. Life is [00:12:00] just too interesting. Brett: I get that. I– get that. I– as someone who’s bipolar and has had like manic episodes where I’m up for five days straight, like I, I love not sleeping. Um, w- when, when I have the mania to give me energy and back it up. It’s when I’m just dragging all day and feel like a zombie. The thing– The, the plus side to it is the more tired I am, up to a certain point, the better I can focus. Like my brain slows down and it’s really easy for me to get into hyperfocus. And like most mornings I’m up at, you know, 2:30, 3:00 and I just start coding. And I can not only hyperfocus, but I can switch focus between three or four different projects like simultaneously. I hit compile on one, I move on to the next one, and I can rotate [00:13:00] through them and like keep track of all of it. And then right around 10:00 AM, my ability to do that ends and suddenly I like flip to a project and I cannot for the life of me remember what I was doing, which is why I’ve spent my life building note-taking apps and, and time tracking tools. Melissa: Yep, same thing. Doing Time Tracker Brett: dude, h- d- I don’t… You might not be familiar with my project Doing. Melissa: N-no, but I– you alluded to something. that’s not what you’re working on with Dan though, is it? Brett: No, no, that’s gonna be Melissa: Dan on that too. I, I, don’t know what it is yet, but yeah, I’m, I’m Brett: Oh, it’s… Yeah, it’s gonna be cool. Melissa: that’s so exciting. Brett: no, Doing is a command line tool where you can type things like, “Doing now podcasting with Melissa,” and it starts a timer for like what I’m doing now, and then I can ask it if I leave and come back, I can say, “What was I doing?” And it’ll tell me, [00:14:00] “You’re podcasting with Melissa.” Obviously, that’s a weird example ’cause I’m not gonna leave in the middle of this. But then it can give you like totals, time, tag-based time totals, uh, for your week and everything. It can show you like what you finished yesterday. Um, it’s not so much a task tracking app as it is a tool for keeping track of what you’re doing in the moment. Um, for, for people like me who switch between four projects at once, it’s really handy. And some guy, some fucking guy Melissa: Some fucking guy. Brett: it, rewrote it in Rust, and it is really good. it is really good. Uh, he like, I- Oh yeah, I use Melissa: Okay, ’cause Brett: This is, this is separate. this is this is a little more ‘ intentional than Timing. Um, I use both. They kind of work together, and Doing can actually import Timing’s JSON exports. So you can turn your, you can turn [00:15:00] all your Timing data into command line, uh, readable Doing files. Um, but anyway, this guy rewrote it in Rust with my permission, and he gave me full credit on the page. And I think I’m switching ’cause Doing is written in Ruby, and Ruby is slow, and Rust is fast. And like my Doing file where it stores all of my current projects, like my Doing items, gets so big that it can take Doing like up to five seconds to respond when I ask it, “What was I doing today?” Which is five seconds is a long time on the command line. Um, and his Melissa: pretty instantaneous. Brett: his version is like 100 milliseconds. Boom. But anyway, Melissa: It’s almost like you built your own little AI thing. Like, what was I doing? What Brett: kinda, kinda, yeah. Melissa: you doing, Dave? Brett: This is, this [00:16:00] was built long before AI was a common thing, but the other thing that’s contributing to my mental health Suspenders And Stenosis Brett: is suspenders. Melissa: Ah, yes. Brett: So I have I have gained 100 pounds, um, not, n-not of my own choice, but like I had rapid weight gain and I recently got a stenosis diagnosis, which I hate the Melissa: telling you, I’m telling you, we’re like 23 and me here. I’ve got that too. Brett: apparently during one of my, like when I gained 50 pounds in like six weeks, my body was looking for places to store all the new fat and decided my spine might be a good place for that. Um, so I have fat in my spine and I have degrading discs. This is separate from my love of suspenders, so I’ll get back to [00:17:00] that. I, um, Melissa: Wait till you get it in your eyeballs. Brett: Oh, for real? Melissa: Yeah, you can have… I have, um, what’s it called? Cholesterol. Yeah, if you look at your eyes really close, if you see like a white kind of w- ridge around your irises, that’s cholesterol. Brett: Oh, wow. Yeah, I hope, I hope that hasn’t happened yet, but who knows? Um, Melissa: Brings out Brett: I– So I have all this, I have all this extra weight and I had a lot of trouble with belts. A, belts hurt ’cause they dig into my, my gut, and they don’t really work. I, every, every time I stood up, my butt crack showed and I had to like wiggle my pants up. And then I I tried a pair of suspenders and it was like a l- a switch had been flipped. All of a sudden my pants just stayed up without any constriction around my waist, just like they just stayed with me wherever I went. And now I can, [00:18:00] I can tuck my shirts in and it actually looks kinda cool when you got the suspenders look going on. Which means, so like for a long time I only wore one brand of shirt, um, and because they, it was, it fit my belly and it was long enough and like it wasn’t, wasn’t baggy around the top and didn’t hang off my belly like a muumuu. Melissa: Mm-hmm, Brett: And like, so I, I, I only wore this brand of shirt and I own like 15 of them, and I would just cycle through Melissa: dresses, they’re just your Walmart $10 cotton tank dress. Love it. Brett: Yeah. But now that I can tuck my shirts in and feel okay about it, I can buy those extra large nerd shirts, ones with funny slogans and stuff on them. And normally those would hang straight down off my belly, and I hate the way that looks. But now I can tuck those in, which means I can get back to wearing funny, [00:19:00] ironic T-shirts, and it, it’s like opening up a whole new world of possibilities Melissa: That is a bonus for mental health. Brett: every day now I put on my suspenders and it makes me happy. Um, Melissa: wonderful. It’s almost like a, like a mobility aid. Brett: Kinda, yeah. Melissa: yeah. Brett: of, I– So I, I have a monopod, um, like a tripod that folds up into a walking stick, and it’s nice and light and it is an adjustable height ’cause it’s designed to be used as a camera tripod. Um, and I’ve started walking with it Melissa: yeah. kinda like you’re Brett: I c- yeah. Yeah. Like one of my fat friends has s- literal like ski poles. They’re like half height ski poles and they walk with them and it helps them a ton, and I Melissa: Yeah, hikers use those. Brett: try that out. But a walking stick [00:20:00] really does help with my stenosis, but I can still, even with a stick, I can only walk for about five minutes, which is about .3, Melissa: Yeah. Brett: 3, .3 miles. Um, and then I have to stop and sit, and it’s been a real pain, literally. Mobility And Home Hacks Melissa: And is standing difficult, too? Brett: standing is worse than walking. Melissa: thing, yeah. Standing’s worse. Brett: Yeah. Like if I am in the kitchen and I’m at the stove cooking, before the onions start to brown, I have to sit Melissa: Yeah. Yep. Brett: Uh, so we now have a stool in our kitchen, Melissa: Do you have one in the shower? Brett: yes. Well, our shower, our shower has a nice, like the back of the tub is a seat. Melissa: Oh, okay. Yeah. Brett: I don’t know if this house was designed by old people or not, but, um, but it’s certainly everything is relatively [00:21:00] accessible in that way. Um, but the stool in the kitchen means I can cook dinner. Emptying the dishwasher is the worst for me. That just like bending over, picking stuff up, and then just moving back and forth, like the five feet across our kitchen. My– I, it takes me three stops, three rests to get a dishwasher emptied. Um, and then I’m kind of ruined after that. I hate it. And I hate that I Melissa: stress mat? Brett: What’s that? Oh, you mean Melissa: mat to stand on? Gotta get, gotta Brett: think that would help? Melissa: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have Brett: used to have one Melissa: and one in front of the kitchen, and I don’t even, I don’t even, do the cooking. Brett: Ha. I used to, I used to have one of those in front of the stove when I w- when I didn’t have pain, but just because I was really getting into cooking and I was spending a lot of time, and I was starting to feel it in my knees. Um, yeah, maybe I should do Melissa: I think it’s a fatigue [00:22:00] mat, I think they call it. Brett: Yeah. Melissa: Yeah, Brett: That sounds Melissa: plus they look cool if you get little designs on them and stuff. Yeah. Oh, we could spend the day talking about just mobility aids and ergonomics and all that kind of stuff. Melissa Health Update Brett: Well, it’s your turn. Talk about whatever you like. Melissa: Yeah, you give me some ideas to talk about. Um, yeah, I struggle with a lot of the same things that you do. Um, I’m always like kinda comparing notes every time you post something. I’m like, "Oh No, ‘Cause you talked about Have you … You haven’t started the injections yet, have you? Brett: No, and they just delayed those. I don’t get them until like June 20th or something. Melissa: nervous about those for you, because I’ve had those and I’ve decided to just swear off them, so I’ll just kinda give you just a heads-up. I mean, it does raise your blood sugar, so that’s not great, and, um, it can give you the roid rage, kinda make you angry, so that’s something to watch out for, and more weight gain, so …But it’s like one of those things where you just have to kinda try [00:23:00] it and see if it works, because if it does work, then you could be more mobile and then maybe drop a few pounds and get some of that weight off of your spine. But if it doesn’t work, just know that that can happen, Brett: my doctor did not mention any of those side effects, so good to Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s the chronic life, so that’s, that’s what, that’s what, uh, affects my mental health, so I’m, I’m really good at faking it. I am actually … I will say I’m actually feeling a little bit more even. ADHD Meds And Mutations Melissa: I’m on, uh … I love when you talk about different prescriptions and stuff. Uh, I just mentioned, so I’m taking Adderall. That is, ugh, it’s a mixed bag. Um, I wanted to ask you about Vyvanse, cause that’s the next thing for me, but it’s, like, super expensive, so I’m trying to make Adderall work as best I can, but I’m, I’m in the process of playing with the dosage. But I think she told me, like, the highest was 30. The thing is, uh, I’ve had genetic testing done, and [00:24:00] I have this condit- not a condition, but it’s a I’m a mutant. It’s a genetic mutation called, it’s, it’s just initials. It’s MTHFR, lovingly known as Brett: you process your, your, chemicals twice as … fast. I have Melissa: Yes, faster processing in the liver. So that’s when she told me, ’cause she started, uh, me out on methylphenidate, and I was like, “Well, what about Adderall?” Because it, I see it work for my kids, you know? The kids are chip off the old block, right? And so I’ve had them tested too, and all three of us are positive for that. It’s lovelin- lovingly known as the motherfucker gene mutation. Um, yeah, so, and it is. It’s, it’s quite a bitch, um, ’cause it causes a whole bunch of other problems. And of course, we’ve talked about Ehlers-Danlos, so I have, uh, hypermobile Eh- Ehlers-Danlos. I’m having a hard time … I’m just having a hard time with that in general, mental health wise, because there’s just not enough awareness about it, enough people, and doctors, doctors and nurses. And you know, I’ll, I’ll say I wanna, I would love to be able to get [00:25:00] to a point where I can just say, “I have H-E-D-S,” or heads or what- however they’re gonna pronounce it, and, like, somebody know what that is when I go in for an appointment. But I still have to explain it, you know? And then that, that cuts into my time. ‘Cause they only … When you’re, when you’re our age, they only give you, like, 15 minutes, if that. When you’re much older, ’cause I’ve had to take, I’ve had to take family members to the doctor, they get a whole lot more time. But, uh, you know, it’s like, "Oh, you’re, you’re too young to be this sick. You’re too young to be this old," Brett: Right. Yeah. Curious Doctors Matter Brett: Um, I did– I found that doctor for me that knew exactly what all those acronyms meant, knew exactly, like, not only did they know what POTS was, they knew like seven different kinds of POTS and what tests to use to narrow it down. And then she got called up to National Guard Melissa: Oh, I wondered, I wondered, what happened to that doctor, ’cause it sounded so Brett: I waited. I was on a, I was on– I w- I had an appointment scheduled that was gonna be six months from the time she [00:26:00] left. Um, and I had it scheduled, and it was on July 7th. And then I got a letter in the mail saying that her Guard duty had been extended, and now I can’t see her again until September. And, like, I’ve, I’ve tried seeing other doctors that work with her, but none of them have the knowledge she has, and it was such a relief Melissa: Is this the curious one? Okay. I always think about you whenever I’m either looking for a provider or in the, in the midst of, of getting, you know, shuffled around to a new provider. I’m like, “I hope they’re curious,” ’cause that made– that meant so much to me when you explained about how a doctor needs to be curious. I’m like, “That’s what I need.” I need somebody… Or even just my therapist. I have a new, a new therapist that I see, and she’s really curious, and I really, really like that about her. That’s something that helps with mental health, is when somebody’s curious, ’cause I’m Brett: it goes h- it goes hand in hand with credulousness. Like, [00:27:00] first they have to be willing to believe you, and like, especially when it comes to invisible issues like EDS. Like, you have to be willing to believe a person and then be curious enough to look for answers. Like, the first step is believing, and the second step is curiosity. Melissa: Yes. I’ve already had my patient record marked as… Have you ever heard this one? Worried well. Brett: No. Melissa: I looked it up. It’s basically hypochondriac. Brett: Yeah, that’s what I was gonna guess. That Melissa: Yep. I actually– I was proud of myself because I actually did confront the doctor about it and I said, “What does this mean?” I said, “I, I looked it up and it kinda concerns me ’cause it makes me look like a hypochondriac.” And she said, "Oh, no, no, that’s just a, a code that we use when we don’t have something else to assign to it so that insurance will pay." Bullshit. Brett: Yeah, right? I feel like that’s exactly the kind of [00:28:00] thing insurance doesn’t pay. Melissa: Mm-hmm. so Vyvanse Vs Adderall Brett: what do you wanna know about Vyvanse? Melissa: Um, a- and I know it’s different for everybody, but I just kinda wondered what your take was on it. Um, how– can you compare it to Adderall at all for me, Brett: Yeah. Melissa: no comparison? Brett: it’s basically a non-abusable, I would call it lower lying version of, of Adderall. Like, it’s in the same family of stimulant as Adderall, but it can’t– It isn’t processed or it’s… I don’t remember how the mechanics of it work, but you can’t snort it basically. Like, it doesn’t, it doesn’t do anything Melissa: Which I wouldn’t wanna do anyway ’cause there’s nothing up here. Brett: Sure. Sure. And then, yeah, I’m not suggesting that was gonna be a problem for you. Um, but it’s also, like, it’s way, um, for me anyway, it’s way calmer. [00:29:00] Um, and there are people that say it doesn’t do anything at all. Um, especially a lot of people, a lot of people say the generic version doesn’t do anything, um, and that the name brand version does, but I haven’t found that to be true. Like the generic, which you’re correct, still costs like 200 bucks a month, um, for the generic. Um, but it is– It’s not my favorite. Melissa: I wondered why– what made you stop taking it. Did it just not work for you? Brett: No, I still take Vyvanse. Um, yeah. Um, I used to take, um, Focalin, which I loved. Melissa: That really worked for my kiddo, yep. Brett: but it also triggered my mania, Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett: so I was always walking this line of like, do I wanna be super productive and manic with like weeks of depression in between, [00:30:00] or do I just wanna be somewhat productive and stable? Um, which is why I’ve stuck with Vyvanse, and my doctor loves it enough for me that she won’t, she won’t prescribe anything else for me at this point. Like, I’ve asked about switching. I’ve asked about moving back to Adderall and things like that, but, Melissa: It seems like you’re, like you’re kinda on an evening out. Brett: Yeah, I haven’t had a manic episode for a couple years now. Tracking Mood With Data Melissa: Do you track it? Do you– Like, have you ever seen those– I keep seeing these ads for it ’cause, you know, the algorithm feeds us the stuff for wearables that are, um, called– I think it’s called Visible, so it makes your symptoms more visible instead of invisible. Like, do you track it? Do you Have you nerded out on your own data? Brett: like my mania and depression? Melissa: Yeah, like do you track it and look at graphs or anything like that to Brett: See, I’ve never had to use an external tool because I can just look at GitHub contribution graphs, and I can look at [00:31:00] my RSS feed, and I can see exactly, like for a period of like eight years, I can pinpoint exactly where my manic episodes were, um, because that data is historically preserved out there on the internet for all to see. Um, it’s, yeah, it’s– Well, and that’s, like I built tools that gathered that, those various sources of data. Um, and then there was a, a tool called, um, I forget. Melissa: cool, though? Hmm. We’ll think Brett: But it could pull, it could pull in all that data. Um, Bell Beth Cooper, Hello Code, I can’t remember the name of the app. Melissa: Yeah, it’ll come to you eventually. Brett: sure. Uh, but it could pull in like your GitHub, uh, commits along with like what the weather was at the time, how many songs you listened to that Melissa: Oh, day one sorta does that, yeah. Brett: Does it now? Melissa: A little bit, yeah, your locations, [00:32:00] um, if you turn on some of those things. Like not– I don’t think it does the music and things like that, but Brett: I haven’t used it for a while. I haven’t used it for a Melissa: I was gonna switch to the journal app. I was actually really… I held off on upgrading to Tahoe for the longest time, but that one kept nagging at me ’cause I thought, oh, you know, maybe. I mean, as much as I love Day One, I, I thought about, I thought about actually switching over, but no. I tried it. I’m, I’m gonna stick with Day One. Brett: Cool. All right. Cane And Somatic Therapy Brett: Um, so did you have, did you have more to add to your Melissa: Oh, I was gonna, I was gonna add on to what you were talking about with the suspenders. I did start… I think you probably… Well, yeah, you commented on it. Um, I started using a cane, and that I have mixed feelings about that. Um, I should have brought it in here so I could show you. I’ll show you later, ’cause, uh, anyway, it’s, it’s purple. I did get a pimp cane. That’s what my husband calls it. I thought, damn it, if I’m gonna use, like, a cane, then it’s gonna be [00:33:00] purple, and I’m gonna like looking at it, as much as I hate to use it, so. So I’ve been trying to use it. I… What you were talking about with, uh, with finding a curious doctor, I do have new physical therapist, um, so I’m really happy about that. Same kind of thing where she’s super booked. I think that’s just how it is. Like, the really good ones, they’re good, and, you know, it shows because it’s, it’s hard to get in to see them. So yeah. So I’m, I’m looking forward to that. We’re gonna be doing… Have you heard of somatic therapy? Brett: Yeah. Melissa: Yeah. So ha- have you tried it? Do, do you like it? Okay. That’s, that’s what I’m embarking on. Brett: I actually have a friend who teaches classes in it. Melissa: Oh, Al probably knows about that. Brett: y- yeah, Melissa: Yeah, I’ll, I’ll Brett: and it is, it is amazing how hard just doing things, doing motions you’re used to, but doing them very slowly and intentionally. It is like you– Just like, Just like, doing y- like a clamshell where you drop your knee, you’re [00:34:00] on your back and you drop your knee down to the side and bring it back up. Like that motion, most of us, even infirmed people can do that okay. You try to take… You try to do that and take like five breaths in each direction, and you’ll start shaking. It’s very Melissa: Ah, uh-huh. Yep. Brett: Yeah, but it’s good. Like it’s g- it really retrains your muscles. It really, it strengthens, retrains, and helps with, uh, finer motor control. Melissa: Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I, I’m, I’m a little bit on the skeptical end of it, so that’s why I’m, I’m glad that, that you, you vouch for it too. It’s like I know that it works, but I just… I guess I wanna understand the science of it a little bit more. Like, for example, I’ve tried, uh, acupuncture, and I just didn’t feel like it did, did anything for me. I think you have to be, like, a believer, and I just Brett: think so. Melissa: I, I, I even did that on purpose knowing that I kinda felt like it wasn’t gonna work. I was like, well, what if I just go into this? ‘Cause, [00:35:00] ’cause I talk to people and they’re like, "Well, you have to believe in it." I’m like, but what if I don’t? I just don’t, you know? I’m, I see it Brett: it’s not medicine if you have to believe in it. Melissa: Yeah. I mean, I see it work for other people. I know there’s, you know, such a thing as placebos and things like that, and I don’t know, it’s, it’s woo-woo and I, I, I like woo-woo stuff. I, it just, it didn’t do anything for me, so… It’s not to say that it doesn’t work for other people, but it just did not work for me, and I, I kind of, I, maybe I just, uh, did that on purpose when I, I try- probably just tripped myself up going into it thinking, well, I just don’t believe it, so if it works, then there must be science behind it. And then, then, I’ll believe. But it didn’t work out, so. So the, I’m a little bit on the fence about the somatic thing, but the, the, the gal that I’m working with is just so, she has EDS herself, and like, like what you were saying, like, she, she knows all about it and she could even, you know, tell me the, the type that she has, and I was like, I met, I met, actually last week I met two zebras in one week. [00:36:00] You, you’re familiar with the, the zebra mascot? If you, uh, the saying goes, if you hear hooves, think horses. But we’re not horses, are we? Yeah, so Yeah, so that’s, that’s our, our Somatics For EDS Melissa: EDS Brett: somatic– somatics you don’t have to believe in for them to work. Melissa: Okay, that is Brett: it’s an actual physical therapy method that trains the finer muscles, um, that surround your larger muscles and, and strengthens those, and it– Yeah, it’s for real. It’s, yeah, it’s not like a… It’s soma- I think, Melissa: w- totally Brett: ’cause I I had the same reaction when someone said somatics, ’cause I think, “Oh, that’s some holistic idea of the body, um, of soma,” and it’s… No, it’s, it’s got legit physical therapy behind it. Melissa: And, Yoga Modifications Melissa: you used to do a lot of yoga too, so that probably makes Brett: I still do. Melissa: Yeah? That’s [00:37:00] wonderful. Brett: it’s gotten really hard. Um, I can’t, I can’t– So I get dizzy Melissa: Yeah. Brett: going from sitting to standing, um, and my back gives out if I am in, like, horse or warrior two for more than a couple minutes. Um, and I can’t do cobras because I have a belly like a nine-month pregnancy. Um, so I have to do, like, prenatal yoga, um, which is actually a thing. Melissa: that’s a good idea. I’m glad you brought that up. I should look Brett: a- and I do chair yoga, um, where I I take the class that everyone else takes, but I modify it to work with… Like, there, there are defined moves that you do with a chair instead of. Instead of doing down dog, you do, like, a 90-degree down dog holding the back of a chair. Um, and you put, like, a knee on the chair to do warrior two, so you’re actually [00:38:00] resting. And Um, and you can do it fully seated too and get at least the arm exercises out of it. So I’ve been trying to maintain, maintain flexibility and some endurance. I’m not doing yoga the way I used to do it, but I am still Melissa: I’ve seen some of your poses. It’s pretty impressive. Brett: Yeah, back in the day. Melissa: W- when you could be upside down. Polycystic Liver Shock Melissa: I should look into that because I, you know, although I’m done having babies, like far done having babies, I have… You probably know about this too, I have polycystic liver disease, which is a really rare type of liver disease, and it’s not fatty liver. Oh my God, I have to keep telling doctors that. That’s the other thing. It’s like, it is not fatty liver. It is not. It- they’re cysts. It’s a totally different thing. I’m basically full of bubbles. So I… But it feels like that’s why I went in to get it. I didn’t actually get that checked. I found it accidentally when I went in for an heart, for a heart CT. That’s when they found it, and for a, a breast MRI, so [00:39:00] both those, those types of scans caught it. The other parts were fine, so my heart’s fine, so that’s a relief. But yeah, so this was a bit of a shock. And so I don’t know exactly what it means moving forward, um, but my entire liver is, like, engulfed in cysts, so. Right? But my blood work is, is fantastic right now, so I’m just gonna keep Brett: That’s good. Melissa: hoping it stays that way. Brett: That’s something. Fatphobia In Healthcare Brett: Um, I I have heard for a long time about, um, doctors being fatphobic and, and always assuming that, um, always assuming that your health i-issue is because you’re fat and not even looking for underlying issues, which has been an interesting experience for me because that really never happened to me. Melissa: Mm. Brett: Um, at least not once I switched to Gundersen from, like, a local clinic. Then I realized that it’s not just being fat that gets you [00:40:00] stigmatized, it’s being a fat woman. Melissa: Mm, I was gonna say try having a uterus and being Brett: yeah. Yeah. Um, like I talked to one of my best friends, April, who he’s, has been on Melissa: by, women doctors. Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s what April tells me. She tells me all these horror stories. Even after finding care she trusted, she still has to deal with people saying, “Well, if you just lost some weight.” Like, she’s been fat her whole life. She’s in better shape than most skinny people Melissa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brett: I mean, she does sit-ups with 50-pound plates and does, like, five, 10 miles at a time on her, like, on her bike and, like, she’s in great shape and still has to walk with the ski poles, and she’s getting her second knee replaced this week. And, like, it, it’s just infuriating to hear the way that doctors dismiss Melissa: You know what the problem is, Brett? Brett: goes through [00:41:00] when Pole Dancing Reality Check Melissa: Not enough doctors have watched fat pole dancers. That is the problem right there. They need more education. Brett: Um, yeah. There’s, there are a couple of, um, queer burlesque shows Melissa: shows, yes. Brett: in my area that almost always include a plus-size pole dance, and it is amazing to Melissa: Oh, it’s mesmerizing. It should be an Olympic sport. Remind me to send you the, the link to, unless you’ve already seen it, have you seen the Deadpool pole dancer? Brett: No, I don’t think Melissa: you are in for a treat. We might just have to put that in the show notes, but I don’t know, I don’t know if your listeners are that, are into that It’s fully clothed, but it’s, there’s even blue Crocs involved. Brett: So this is nobody that you’re seeing on the Melissa: I wondered, yep. I wondered, yeah. Aw, he looks so soft. Mm. Mechanical Keyboard ASMR Brett: So you’ve [00:42:00] gotten really into mechanical keyboards. Melissa: have, I have. In fact, uh, I was gonna, I was gonna see how this might sound, but I, I brought my little box of key caps to show you so that I could say, welcome to my ASMR channel. Brett: That would… is is that a thing? I bet there are ASMR, like, key switch testing. Melissa: yeah, yeah. I’ve run across a couple of videos where, you know, they’ll have a hashtag ASMR in there, and that’s, that’s what it is. Do you experience ASMR yourself? Brett: No. Melissa: No? So when you listen to those videos you don’t get like the s- the tickling of the spine and stuff? Brett: No. Melissa: I do. It actually, it goes, it… I forget. I always forget what the acronym stands for, but it, you know, has something to do with the meridian. So if you can i- imagine your brain like split in half, and I feel it right on this side. It goes, it goes like the, down the back of my head, behind my ear, and down into my shoulder. It [00:43:00] is the funkiest feeling, and I love it. I love it so much. Even when we were talking about animals in the, in the beginning and I even had a cat that would come and just like kind of lick my ear and, oh, I just, I love that. Most people cannot stand that sound. They have the opposite condition where they can’t handle somebody chewing gum. My grandfather had that. Um, some, some kinda, it ends in a tonia. Misatonia or something like that, um, where… I don’t know. Do you have any of those like sound sensory issues? I have a lot of Brett: really don’t. I’m very, I’m very, like, sound Like, I like loud, heavy music. Like, that does something for my psyche. Um, but general sounds, they neither bo-bother me nor stimulate me. Melissa: imagine what that’s like. I just can’t. I’m So bothered, and my kids too, and you know, ugh, God, Brett: So El Melissa: has been problematic. Brett: El is, El is, definitely sensitive to sound, um, in a way that Like, even my [00:44:00] mechanical keyboards can’t be, can’t be on the same floor of the house as Elle. We pretty much live in silence, and that’s fine for me most of the time because, like, it just doesn’t affect me either way. So, like, keeping things quiet is easy, and I focus well in silence. And then when Elle’s gone, I blast my music, and w- when I’m in the car, I blast my music, and then the rest of the time I live in the quiet place. Melissa: Mm-hmm. In The Quiet Place. Brett: Yeah. Melissa: Yeah, we have- something a little similar, but m- my husband and I have, uh… We have our his and hers kind of setup here in, in the, in our den, in our inner study. So he’s got his side and I’ve got my side. So we’re together, and he does a lot of grading papers, and he’s really good about putting his, his earbuds in and just tuning the whole world out. He’s… It’s fascinating to watch that man just [00:45:00] execute. I mean, I just am so envious of people who can just execute. But the, the, the, yeah, the sensory, it’s all about the sensory stuff for me when it comes to keyboards. I actually thought about… I don’t know how popular it would be, but I also thought about making a podcast, a video podcast, that would highlight the intersection of nail art and mechanical keyboards. Because I’ll tell you, that’s actually what… I’ve always loved mechanical keyboards, but yeah, the, the one that I had, someone had given me a, a Matias, and oh, it’s, it’s so loud, but it’s like high-pitched. It’s kinda sharp. And it was even kind of annoying to me after a while. And then it does not, it’s not a mechanical keyboard in that you can’t pull the switches out, so you’re kinda stuck with what you got. Like, you might be able to change the key caps if you could find them, but couldn’t change the switches. And something happened to the S key, and I was like, “All right, it’s over,” so. But I can’t get rid of them either, so one of these days I wanna have like a display of, of keyboards. [00:46:00] Nail Art And Picking Melissa: But what got me, what got me into saying, “Okay, I’m finally, I’m just gonna invest in a keyboard because it’s ergonomically important to me,” is I have… And I can’t pronounce it, so I’m not even gonna try, but there’s a condition, and it’s a self-diagnosed thing. But I, I am a picker. I pick my skin a lot. Um, I think it’s called derma something Anyway, so I wasn’t gonna try to pronounce it. But, uh, I’ve always had that condition since I was a kid. I didn’t even know it was a thing. I just thought everybody get, uh, picks. But then during the pande- during the pandemic, it got super bad. Like, I had, I had, um, some panic attacks and, you know, as a lot of probab- people probably did. But it got so bad to the point where I had picked my fingers and they were bleeding and they were throbbing and they were hurting. And I said to one of my kids, I said to my youngest, I said, “Can you just, like, if I, if I’m picking, can you just let me know?” And then I regretted doing that because then he took it on as this, like, full-time job, you know? And it kinda [00:47:00] gave him anxiety, and I thought, “Oh, okay, that, that was a bad thing to do.” So I s- I let him off the hook. I said, “No, you don’t have to tell me anymore.” Um, because, yeah, ev- even if I went to, like, just kinda, like, clean under my nail or something. So it was actually causing a real problem for the family that I was just picking so much. And it’s not just my fingers, it’s, like, other parts of my body. So I thought to myself, “Well, what can I do about this?” And so I started putting fake nail tips on. And I hate to be all, like… I don’t know, I’m not, I try not to be, like, a very vain person, but I really started kinda falling into the nail art side of things, and I, I just recently learned how to do gel and work with, um, uh, what’s it called? Uh, not resin. So I… Oh, that’s another ASMR thing. Do you like to watch resin pours? Brett: I do, actually, yes. Melissa: that’s… Okay, so if you like resin pours, if you like to watch the viscosity and the way the, the chemicals, like, form together and when they, when they mix colors in and stuff, [00:48:00] that’s what it’s like with nail art but on more of, like, a macro level because it’s, you know, you’re working with small stuff. Like, just, just recently I learned how to do… So I’m showing Brett this on, on camera, but I recently learned how to do the kind of nail polish that you take a magnet and you run the magnet along it, and it makes this, like, a cat’s eye. Brett: Yeah, that’s cool. Melissa: I love it. So, so that, so combining nail art then, and I thought, “Well, now I’ve got these long nails,” but all of my keyboards have been these flat, really low-profile keyboards. And, you know, I just, I started to dread it. So then I was kinda caught between a crossroads. Like, either I leave nails off and I can type really, really fast and have high accuracy with no nails, but then as soon as, as soon as I get, like, a little snag or something, then I start picking and then it’s just, it’s all over then. Or I try to find a way to work with these nails. So that’s what I started thinking, “Well, maybe if I had higher keys.” And so then I just, yeah, rabbit hole. [00:49:00] Went down the rabbit hole, and I’ve, I’ve just kinda been there ever since. And, uh, it really, I think, uh… Let’s see. How long ago did this start? It’s only been about maybe like six months or something like that, so. Keyboard Layout Rabbit Hole Melissa: But in that time so I’ve started, um, building a collection of switches. So I’ve been really interested in both the key caps and the switches. Um, I’ve got my baseboards. I like my Royal Kludge the best. This is… I’m gonna show Brett my Royal Kludge. So, so this is what it’s looking like right now. Brett: Yeah. Melissa: It is very purpley. Um, I did post some pictures. I can… I don’t know if you do pictures in show notes, but I could take some pictures for you It’s got a knob. It’s got, um… Let me see if I can do it real Brett: Do you use the knob. I have a couple keyboards with knobs and even a joystick, and I never actually use them Melissa: Good question. Um, I, I use it, I try to use it for volume at [00:50:00] times, and that’s probably what I use it for the most. But this one does have a… Let’s see if I can get this into focus here, backwards and upside down. It’s gonna be upside down, but you see how you can put, you can put your logo Brett: Oh, yeah. Nice. Melissa: got my The Mac Mommy little logo on there. Otherwise, it gives you the time in military format, so that’s kind of handy to have. Um, but yeah, it’s… To be honest, I, I love the, I love this Royal Kludge because it’s nice and heavy, and I love the form factor. It’s got a number pad, um, because I’m, because I am a grown-ass adult and I need a number pad. Um, but it’s nice and heavy. It doesn’t, it doesn’t move around my desk a lot. I kind of have to type, like, kind of crooked, ’cause that’s just the way my neck goes to the wrong way and stuff like that. So I like being able to fit it on my desk. I have a, I had a larger one made by Red, uh, what is it? Redragon. This is the one that I started [00:51:00] out with. Gonna make lots of noise here. But as you can see, this one is way bigger. And it was, as much as I liked it, I mean, I fell in love with it, but what was happening was my accuracy was, like, really thrown off because I fe- I kept feeling like it just needs to be, like, a couple centimeters to the right or a couple centimeters to the left. It just wasn’t centered very well. So this one, my husband gets all the hand-me-downs, so that one went over onto his desk. Uh, and then I also have a baby keyboard here, and this is another Redragon. This is my little mini one. Brett: that’s, that’s the kind of keyboard I mostly use, like a 70% keyboard. Melissa: Yeah, I think this one’s even 60. Um… Brett: My– The one I’m using right now is, uh, 60. There’s no, there’s no function row, there’s no arrow, there’s no keypad or, like, arrow pad. Um, Melissa: No [00:52:00] arrows? How do you live without arrows? Oh, do you, you mapped your keys to something Brett: so it looks like this, Melissa: nice. I love the Brett: that the, the space bar is split in two. Yeah, my, my, my partner says it looks like, uh, gay ’80s. It’s all pink and blue and purple. Um, but the, the space bar is split, and the right half of mine functions as something called a mod key, and when I hold that down, then my I, J, K, and L keys become arrow keys. Melissa: Oh, wow. Brett: once you get used to it, you never have to take your hand off the home row. Melissa: Oh my God, that must be amazing. Brett: It– Yeah, once you get used to it, it, it’s so… Like, g- moving to a keyboard that doesn’t have that is kind of tortuous. On my MacBook Pro, I have remapped it using Karabiner so that Melissa: [00:53:00] That’s what I’m using. Brett: if I hold, the semicolon down with my pinky, then H-I-J-K-L become, Melissa: Oh, nice. Brett: become arrow keys, so I still don’t have to move my hand all the way down and to the right. Like, that’s such a inefficient movement that then I have to, like… Because I don’t have great feeling in my fingers, so finding, on a low-profile keyboard, finding the, the homing buttons again Melissa: Oh, do you use the humming buttons? See, that’s the thing, I was never taught that. I mean, I took like a ty- I took like a typewriting class back in high school, and I just didn’t like it. I, I just taught myself. I just… I’m an autodidact that way, so I just taught myself. Brett: my dad, back in 1984, we had a typing program on our PCjr, and I Melissa: It wasn’t Mavis Beacon, was it? Brett: remember. I don’t remember. All I know is, like, It taught you touch typing, and it would give you [00:54:00] these lessons, and you would basically just mirror what was on screen. And at the age of seven, I was typing at about 68 words per minute on an, on an old IBM PCjr keyboard. Um, got a lot faster through high school and everything. But yeah, I was, I was, from day one, I was raised to be a touch typist, and, and I took all the classes they had in school. Melissa: But you still touch Brett: labs. Yeah. Melissa: Uh-huh, yeah. So you don’t do the home rows. Brett: No, that is touch Melissa: Oh, touch typing, so you do feel… for the bumps. Brett: Yeah, I feel for the bumps, and then I just, like, my f- my key, my fingers never really leave the Melissa: Oh, yeah. See, I wish I could do Brett: centered home row. Yeah. It’s, it, it’s good. Um, Melissa: And you’re using the split, so my gosh. Brett: What– You get used to that too. Um, like, [00:55:00] I can’t do it with the split far apart. I’ve seen people use, like, splits, like, way out to the sides, and I can’t, my, my brain doesn’t do that. Like, my hands have to be within, like, six inches of each other. Melissa: I always thought, it would be so cool to have something where you could have it, like, raised up like this, right? And use your hands sideways. Brett: Yeah. Well, that’s I mean, that’s essentially, I have, on the bottom of this keyboard, I have these risers. Melissa: Oh, uh-huh. Oh, Brett: So it sits, right now I have it at about a 45-degree tent, tent, tent. Um, but it can go up to more like an 80-degree tent, where you’re actually Melissa: Wow. Brett: uh, almost like you’re clapping, you’re typing. Um, I don’t Melissa: of that. I have a, a, handshake mouse. Brett: Vertical mouse. Melissa: You like… Is that what you have for a mouse too? Brett: no, I, I love Melissa: Trackballs. Oh, trackpads. Oh, okay. Brett: Apple’s Magic Trackpad changed my life. I’ve never used– I’ve never gone back to a [00:56:00] mouse since the first Magic Trackpad came out. Melissa: So you’re all about the gestures then? Brett: yeah, Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Brett: Bet- bet- better touch tool for the win. Melissa: You know what it is for me, is because of the type of work that I do, and this is very much true for both of us, you do these things because of the type of work that you do. The type of work that I do, I’m in everybody’s homes, so I have to ty- I have to be able to type and use their mouse and, I mean, it’s actually a very dirty job. So I keep hand wipes with me everywhere. Um, that, that was why during the pandemic I was like, “I am not coming to your house and I am not touching the stuff that you just picked your nose and…” Yeah, mm-mm. But, so, so i- it’s been kind of keeping me almost like a purist in a way as far as keyboards have gone all these years. I, I finally just kind of let go and embraced this recently, th- which is why I’m so excited and why I’m just kind of nerding out on it, because when, when I worked [00:57:00] in, like, I’ll call it the industry, um, I got my f- my start in prepress. So I worked in prepress, I was a typesetter, and we had… That’s what I kind of miss. We had the old clunky beige keyboards, and I had my muscle memory such that I think my o- my Option key would have, like, the indentation of my nail on it. You know? ‘Cause I had, just like you have, keys that are programmed. I could… I was a Quark queen. I don’t know if you’re familiar with QuarkXPress? Brett: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was a graphic designer. I I know Quark. Melissa: Yeah, I loved it. I was… And, and I used it back in the OS 9 days, OS 7 really, is when I started out. Uh, I did not like the OS X vers- OS 10 version of Quark. Did not like it at all. Brett: No, but that’s Melissa: it was slow. Brett: Adobe came out with, what was, what was Adobe’s… InDesign. Yeah. By the time I had started, by the time I had started my own ad agency, we were all InDesign. Melissa: Oh, [00:58:00] nice. Okay. I mean, it was a Brett: and none of the, none of the print shops expected Quark files Melissa: Yeah. Oh, it was so expensive. I remember I had to buy it when I was in college, and I remember it cost, like, $800. I’m probably still paying for that, damn it, in interest. Yeah, so that, that’s how I got my start originally, and that’s how I was doing… I, I went to… So I have, I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts. I went to college in order to be a designer. I wanted to be a designer designer, and that’s what I, what I thought I was good at and thought that I liked doing, ’cause, you know, “Oh, you’re a girl. Go to art school. You like to draw.” You know? I’m always bitter about that because I really wish that I would’ve been able to go… I mean, this was, you know… I’m, I’m 51, so this was back in the day where girls, girls don’t do computers and girls don’t do coding. G- girls don’t do computer science. They didn’t even call it computer science. They didn’t even call it graphic design back then. It was commercial art. Um, so I studied that and, you know, I liked it ’cause I thought, “Well, this is what I could, I could take my art and make [00:59:00] a living into it.” And then fast-forward, um, I just started to fall in love with the technical troubleshooting side of things. So as, as good as I was at the technical typesetting and the technical, like, putting prepress things together, you know, um, uh, key sheets and s- you know, things like that. Do you remember, was there, uh, did you ever use a program called Quick Keys? That was one of the ones Brett: familiar. Melissa: you could map your own keys to things. So w- when I was in prepress and doing typesetting, I used that program and I, I mapped all my keys, and I had all these quick keys and stuff so I could go really, really fast, you know? So when they wanted something done fast, they gave it to me, and I could just fly through documents with this. But then as people learned that I was good at this kind of stuff and troubleshooting, they’re like, “Oh, hey, Roger needs, you know, has a problem. Can you go help him?” So I’d go over to his cubicle, I sit down, and he’s got nothing. You know, he’s got [01:00:00] no quick keys, no nothing, and you just kinda get lost because your muscle memory just adapts to it. And I couldn’t help people the way… And, and that was what it was about for me. I really liked more helping people and troubleshooting and the technology side of things than the actual design process. So I kind of went to the other side with it. And so I just kind of, like, vowed that, okay, I’m not gonna do any kind of, like, customization on my own workstation because then I’ll, my, my muscle memory will map to it, and then when I go to sit down to help somebody else, I won’t… You know, I’ll be so much in my own world that I won’t be able to help them. And so I just kind of, like, remained a, a purist for the longest time. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t make too many keyboard shortcuts. You know, a few here and there, but I tried not to make too many ’cause I just didn’t wanna be lost when I sat down at someone else’s machine. And so then, you know, fast-forward to today and now I’m like, “You know what? Screw it.” I think I, I know enough about, about people’s different setups and stuff that I can kind of float between the two. I’ve gotta take care of me now, so [01:01:00] it’s more, more of a self-care thing. Shortcuts And Muscle Memory Brett: my s- my, my– The story that comes to mind about using other people’s computers when you’re used to using your own shortcuts is for 20-some years, I have always remapped my Caps Lock key to be an Escape key. And this is, this is before I ever… Do you know what a hyper key is? Like now, now I have a hyper key, but if I tap it, um, my Caps Lock, it’s still an Escape key. And I was working for Engadget, and I had been brought in to, I don’t even remember. I was fixing something on a server And it required me to SSH in and use Vim to edit a file while the new– The company they had just bought, I was in their offices and they handed me a computer and they’re like: "Can you do this? We’ll watch." And [01:02:00] so I don’t know if you use Vim, but you have to use the escape key all the time in Vim. Um, like there, Vim has three modes and you switch back to normal mode by hitting, uh, the escape key. Melissa: Already sounds Brett: so I’m y- I’m just super used to w- hitting it with my pinky to the left, and I’m using someone else’s computer and it’s not remapped. So while they’re watching over my shoulder, I’m like, I’m hitting caps lock, typing the wrong things, uh, having to like backspace, and then I just keep doing it ’cause it’s such muscle memory for Melissa: you can’t fight Brett: eventually… It was a Mac and I eventually remembered I can just go into system settings, into keyboard settings, and I can remap the modifier key. And I like, I pulled myself out of the fire at that point. But yeah, it was Melissa: To, do that on a client’s machine, and I always have to make a note of it to remind myself to put it back because I, ’cause I, I’ve done that before. I’ve screwed somebody over ’cause, [01:03:00] “I can’t use my computer. What did you do?” Yeah, yeah. They ca- like, some people, they just really like their mouse cursor to go really, really slow, and I’m like, "We’re on a, I’m on the clock here, man. I gotta speed this up." Can’t get anything done. Yikes. GrAPPtitude App Picks Brett: should we uh, should we wrap up with a, uh, GrAPPtitude, Melissa: yeah. Brett: So I, I have two picks and I’m gonna… They’ll be short. The first one is by the time this episode comes out, Bartender 6 Pro will be officially released. Melissa: love Bartender. Brett: yeah. Well, and they went through a bit of a rough patch when the company got acquired and they had like beacon software in it and, um, they explained all of that and they made amends and they took the beacon software out and, uh, became a very transparent company. So there’s no reason not to use Bartender anymore because it really is the best of all of the [01:04:00] menu bar managers. And one of the nice things that 6 Pro adds is a notch. It’s called the top shel- top shelf, and when you hover over the notch on, like, your MacBook Pro, or it can actually add one for you on a non-notch computer, uh, you hover over the notch and it opens up a shelf that shows you, like, the weather and your now playing, uh, like, music info, and then it has a file shelf you can drag files to as Melissa: Ooh. Brett: like, move around your computer and then drag them out of to a new location, and a clipboard manager. And it kind of, it kind of doubles the utility of Bartender. Plus they made groups, uh, like… So Bartender’s always been good about creating a second Melissa: Mm-hmm. Brett: bar, right? Um, but n- but as of 6, they added groupings, so you can have icons in your menu bar that open up smaller [01:05:00] Melissa: I have, a little, I have a little unicorn emoji. Brett: Nice. I have, I have four or five groups, and I keep my menu bar very trim. It all fits on the right side of my MacBook Pro’s notch, even though I run well over 30 utilities. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s a, that’s a top pick. Then there’s this new app called Sort, Sortio or Sort IO. Um, there have been a bunch of these, um, AI file sorting apps that have come out. Like, it’s a– There’s been a glut of, of, of apps in the… It’s become a really crowded space, these apps that can, like, purport to, uh, read your files, determine what kind of file they are, and then sort them into subfolders for you. Um, kind of like Hazel, but without creating all the rules. They’re never– They don’t work with the way I file my stuff. [01:06:00] Like, I have a very project-based filing system, and I use something called Tag Filer that I wrote decade ago that I can just add tags, descriptive tags to my files, and then Hazel picks up on those tags and sorts it into a shallow folder hierarchy for me. So I’ve never had a use for these AI file moving apps. But when I mentioned this system to the developer of Sortio, we’re gonna go with Sortio for now, he took me seriously. I had mentioned it to every developer that had come to me with one of these apps asking me to write about it, and, and I’ll, I’ll give him a link, whatever. Um, but this guy was like, "I took you seriously and I just shipped a file tagger, or a ta- a Tag Filer compatible AI. And what it does is you give it, like, a source folder. So I give it the folder where, where Tagfiler had [01:07:00] always filed things, and all of those… drag what? Melissa: Can you drag the source folder into the place, or do you have to type up the whole thing? Brett: No, you, you you just use, like, a file open dialogue, um, and then it will build a corpus. It’ll read all the existing files and all of their existing tags and develop a corpus of, like, files that match this description get this kind of tag. And if it has this in its file name or this in its content, or it’s located at this location, like, it determines, like, a hieristic of– a heuristic of what, what constitutes a tag. Melissa: like high-res better. Brett: can, then you can apply that to untagged files, and it’ll give you a list of like, “Here’s what we think this file should be tagged and here’s why.” It’ll give you a description. “This is why we determined this.” And then you can check on or off. You can say, “This is correct, this isn’t,” and it learns from your decisions, [01:08:00] and then you just hit a button and it applies the tags. Instead of filing it in places where you don’t have full control, you control what tags it gets, and then my, my Tagfiler script files it for me. Um, and this is, it’s not perfect yet, and I– well, I’ve only been using it like this for a day, so I don’t know how much better it will get. Melissa: well, it sounds like you’ve been using it for a lot longer. Brett: well, I’ve been using my Tagfiler system forever, but, like, but this new, this new, uh, AI system I’m describing, I literally just, like, fired up this morning. Um, but yeah, Melissa: doing something like that in C- in Claude, except that gives me a great idea, ’cause I just have … Right now I have folders that are just called File These, and one is File These Images, File These PDFs, File These Pages, you know, well, file, file these whatever type of file it is. ‘Cause those are the main types of files that I work with. [01:09:00] And I thought about writing something using Claude to … I started the process, but then I got pulled away to something else, ’cause ADHD. Uh, and I started sta- telling it, like I want it to go through all of those folders and take out … It’s the medical records, of course, that I save. Like, ’cause I, I download and I keep copies of all my medical records in case I have to move to some other place. I mean, MyChart is really great. Do you use MyChart? You’re familiar with that? It’s really great, but what happens if, you know, the system d- if, they decide to go somewhere else? ‘Cause I’ve already had my medical records lost. So anyways, so I have all those, but the way that you’re describing tags … Because right now I use folders that I consider categories, but maybe tags would be a better way to do it. I could just leave them in these big bucket folders, Brett: here’s my old pitch. Here’s my old pitch. A file can exist in one folder, or, or you can maybe alias it into multiple folders, but that’s a pain in the [01:10:00] butt, as you’ve been using a Mac long enough to know that’s not an ideal Melissa: It’s not, not good. Brett: tags, you can have as many tags as you want on one file, and then using Spotlight and searching for tags instead of for folders, you can find all the files that are related in one way, and then the subsection or cross-section of files related in another way, and you can combine tag searches. You can say, “Only show me PDFs that were from this year that match this topic,” like this Melissa: Yeah, like when was my last mammogram, or when was my last …Yeah. This would be amazing for medical files. Brett: Yeah. Melissa: Okay, Brett: I highly recommend tags. Anyway, okay, your turn. Melissa: My turn. So since y- since you did two, I added on another one, ’cause you reminded me about it. Um, but the first one I’ll talk about is Sketch Party TV. And you said you’ve, you’ve played this. Have you, have you played it with your friends? It is so much fun. It’s like Pictionary. [01:11:00] And then have you customized … You can customize the word lists. Have you done any of that, or do you just use the built-in words? Brett: I did know you could do that, but I haven’t done it, no. Melissa: Oh, yeah. So you can make up your own word lists and put them in there. It’s really great for… It’s, it’s all ages seem to like it. I mean, my, my, my stepfather is, like, 80 years old, and he at first was like, “No, I don’t wanna play. I don’t wanna play.” And then we kinda like made him, and then he started to really enjoy it, so you definitely have to give it a try. But it’s basically like Pictionary. You pass around an iPad. Um, you… There’s an app that’s on your Apple TV and an app that’s on the iPad, and it has, you know, teams. I, I wanna say you can have four teams maybe. We’ve only ever done it with two ’cause we haven’t had enough people. But you can create your teams. You can color code it, and then, uh, you pick from either a pre-populated list of words or you can make your own list of words. And so the kids that come over really like that because one time, um, you know, for New Year’s [01:12:00] Eve they said, “Well, let’s make a list that’s all about foods,” ’cause there is a New Year’s Eve list. But let’s make a list that’s all the types of foods that we would eat at a, at a party. And I made it a little bit easier. But, uh, oh, my God, some of the laughs that we’ve had and, you know, you’re… It’s, it’s a family-friendly game, but the ones, of course, I mean, we’re twisted, so that’s… It’s okay. But some of, like, the really what would be considered very inappropriate in someone else’s family has gotten, you know, the biggest rise out of things that people have drawn, and I’ll just let everybody use their imagination. Yeah. And that’s what it’s all about is using your imagination. So I, I pass around styluses and, and an iPad, and we just have a great time with it. Brett: so drawing on an iPad, is not It’s not ideal, uh, for me anyway. Um, and in the times we’ve played it in a party setting, it is what it is. Like, you, you kinda, you– it becomes almost a handicap, the, the quality of the drawing. Um, and if everyone’s at the same disadvantage, it’s fine. [01:13:00] However, we played it with my brother, who is a professional artist and, like, has been drawing since he was very small and is very Melissa: yeah, we suck. Brett: yeah, while we’re all doing these, like, scribbles and, like, arrows and, like, “Err,” like Pictionary style, and then he sits down and, like, draws out a forest with a deer and it was infuriating. Melissa: The, the, the trick is to use the damn colors. The Brett: Yeah, for Melissa: thing with, um… Have you ever played Cranium? I love Cranium, and, and that, um, I, I leveled it up by bringing Play-Doh to the, to the game with that. Instead of just having the purple clay that they use, I actually played it with Play-Doh one time. ‘Cause one time, one time the, uh, the word that I had to sculpt out of the clay was remote control. So all I did was just grab a piece of black clay and took one little piece of red and just made the power button on it, and like, [01:14:00] you know, easy to guess, you know? Stuff like that, so yeah, I really dig that. So that’s a good one. I definitely recommend that. That’s a… It would be a good gift app to share too. Brett: sure. Karabiner Power Tips Melissa: And then the next one we can both talk about is Karabiner, ’cause you mentioned it, and that’s what’s enabling me to, since we’re talking about keyboards and stuff, that’s what’s been enabling me to, um, take what are typically always PC keyboards and map them to a Mac. And, um, so yeah, I’ve been having a lot of fun with that. I did wanna ask you one thing that I, I did get stuck with that I haven’t figured out how to do yet, and I wanted to know what your take would be on it. Uh, so Karabiner lets you make, uh, simple remappings and complex remappings and macros and all of that kinda stuff, and hyperkeys, like you mentioned, which I haven’t used yet, but I, it sounds like I really need to learn that. Uh, but for example, I really… I have one key down the center here that I use for my calculator. And like for the emoji key, you know, you map the globe key. The, the globe key is [01:15:00] the emoji key. I mapped it to a different key. When I press that one, I can open and close the emoji picker, but the calculator just stays open. So like a cave person, I have to go and press Command + W. But I would really like one key. Can I make a Brett: emo- the emoji picker is designed to be transient. Like, it, it, by default it comes and when you pick an emoji it goes. Uh, but Calculator is actually an app. So it would be possible, yes, with a combination of something like BetterTouchTool and Karabiner to actually create an app toggle. Melissa: A toggle. Brett: Maestro Keyboard Maestro does it well too. Um, and then you would just map A key to a Keyboard Maestro. Um, BetterTouchTool is probably actually more intuitive, um, than using Karabiner to do it. Um, or be- or just do the whole thing in Keyboard Maestro and just assign, like make it into a [01:16:00] hotkey and trigger a script that if the app is running, it quits it. If the app isn’t running, it launches it. Like that’s, that’s your basic, uh, system event scripting with AppleScript, Melissa: Oh, Brett: uh, Claude can definitely write for you. Um, in fact, um, I have had– Well, I use Cursor, and I have had Cursor write me some complex modifications for Karabiner, uh, which are just JSON files that you can then import. Um, so I’ll just tell it, like I had it do one I wanted when I press A and S simultaneously within like 50 milliseconds of each other, then my D and F become… That becomes a Command key, and D and F become Tab and Shift+Tab. So from the home row with just my four fingers on the home row, I can put down my pinky and my ring finger and then use my index finger and middle finger to switch apps, Melissa: Oh, wow. Brett: [01:17:00] which is just one more, one more way I don’t have to move off the home row. Melissa: Nice. Oh, that sounds amazing. That’s like music to my ears Brett: Yeah, no, Karabiner is, Karabiner is endless fun, and it is really easy to put yourself in a position where you can’t use other people’s Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, that’s why I wanted to kind of be careful with it. I haven’t done a whole lot with it ’cause I feel like it could be dangerous. Next thing you know, everybody’ll have Karabiner on their computers, but yep. So that’s, those are my GrAPPtitudes. Very grateful Brett: All right. Wrap Up And Thanks Brett: Well, thank you for joining me today, helping me get an episode out when no one else could make it. Melissa: I love it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been a little bit of a dream come true. I’ve always wanted to be on your show. You’ve been on mine, and now I’ve been on yours. Brett: this has been great fun. Um, so as we always say, get some sleep. [01:18:00]

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Chapters 00:00 Gang Back Together 01:23 Mental Health Corner 01:39 Back Pain Diagnosis 07:09 Dental Insurance Racket 12:34 Post Surge Recovery 19:24 Surgery And Withdrawal 24:36 Sponsor One Skin 26:23 Terminal Widget Reveal 31:24 Widgets And Visualizations 34:51 Release Plans And Review 36:56 Universal Bundle Pricing 37:38 AI Boosts Mark II Sales 39:20 Leaving Oracle Behind 40:03 Ninety Hour Workweeks 41:55 NV Ultra Vaporware Woes 43:17 Missing Collaborators Online 45:09 Dan Peterson Secret App 46:23 The Pit TV Complaints 50:49 ER Nostalgia and Cast 54:01 Season Two and Other Shows 58:33 Gratitude App Picks 01:00:09 AI Tools and Claude Code 01:04:35 Bookshelves and Audiobooks 01:07:10 Wrap Up and Sleep Show Links TerminalWidget Marked 3 Bezel BookShelves Claude app Join the Conversation Merch! Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Transcript Projects and Pitt-falls Gang Back Together Christina: [00:00:00] What’s that? Do you see a podcast update in your feed? Well that’s because you’re back on, on Overtired and, uh, and I’m Christina Warren and I’m joined by, uh, Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra. What do you know? The whole gang is back together. Overtired, everybody what Jeff: Hi everybody. Brett: I need a, we need a party sound. We need a Christina: we do. We need a soundboard. We need a soundboard and we need a, a way to be like what Gangs all here. Some sort of a like a either a a we need a horn. That’s what we need. We need one of those. Those horns they play at at at football games. Jeff: would like that very much. Brett: or that like B. Christina: exactly. Jeff: yeah, Brett: That would really wake people up. Christina: It really would. And, and especially, um, all of us. ’cause I we’re recording this earlier than we ever do. Brett’s been up for a really long time and, uh, I think Jeff is probably like raring to go, but I’m like, I, well now Jeff: raring to go, but I’m warming [00:01:00] up. Christina: Yeah, I, I, I’ve been up since like five 30, so I’m okay too, but yeah. Brett: I wrote an entire shortcuts in shortcut intense interface for my new app this morning, and it’s actually working. I’ve never written for shortcuts before. Christina: Well, Ooh, we will, yeah, you gotta talk to us more about that ’cause I wanna hear more about that. Mental Health Corner Christina: Um, but first I think we should probably do, um, because it’s been a while since we’ve all been together, we should probably do a little bit of a mental health corner. Brett: yeah, Who wants to kick that off? Okay, fine. I will. Jeff: health. Mental health. Silence. Back Pain Diagnosis Brett: I, uh, I, I, my sleep has gotten a little worse than it was before when I told you it was bad. Um, I’m, now, I’m back down to like five hours a night and I just wake up at like 2:00 AM. And like I go to bed by eight or nine and I get up at [00:02:00] 2:00 AM every morning and I just cannot, for the life of me fall back asleep. And for like the first hour I’m up, I’m not even really awake. Um, I’m just kind of sitting on the couch staring at my computer and not be, not able to do anything After about an hour. Um. I, I, I’ll get some coffee, I’ll take my meds and like then it’s kind of like most people’s, like maybe 10:00 AM 11:00 AM um, by, by like 3:00 AM but it’s still wearing me down. Um, I got, so I’ve had back pain, um, for a while now. Uh, I can’t stand up for more than about five minutes and I can’t walk for more than three to five minutes, which has really put a dent in my, um, ability to exercise. And, um, so I finally got, I got an MRI [00:03:00] done, and they. Diagnose me with stenosis, which I think is kind of a, a broad term, but like a couple of the discs in my lower back have collapsed and, um, they, they, they think I can be treated with, uh, with shots and not surgery. Um, so I’m hoping, I’m hoping to get that figured out because, okay, so right now, uh, we, we always go on walks in the wildlife refuge, um, like the wetlands refuge near us, and I love it. We, we see so much cool stuff there and I hadn’t really been able to, but what I found was this little, it’s like. Folded up, it’s like two feet tall, uh, camp chair and it, it’s like a camp stool. And so I carry that with us while we walk and then like every three minutes I’ll like have to set it up on [00:04:00] the side of the trail sit. And if I sit for two minutes, the pain goes away, I can then walk again immediately. Um, but like after, after three to five minutes, like my back freezes up and I, like, I literally, I can’t move anymore. Um, so this little, uh, take carrying a chair and doing it in three minutes stints, um, has at least allowed me to get out and get some green time. But that’s kinda where I’m at. Jeff: What does this little chair look like? Uh Brett: It’s blue Jeff: huh. Brett: and it has four legs and it’s can canvas. Jeff: is it like an adorable little camp chair that you’re supposed to be able to like Brett: I think it’s a toddler’s ch camp chair. Jeff: Excellent. This is the detail I Brett: like, it’s smaller than my butt. Like I’m perching on it, but it’s enough to like get my back, uh, into feeling. Okay. And it’s not too heavy to like carry[00:05:00] Jeff: Show art, but the art, the art is you perching. Just to be really clear. Brett: Yes. My, my 280 pounds pound perched on a two foot camp stool, it’ll be great. Jeff: Wow. Well, I’m glad there’s something like some kind of thing Brett: Yeah, no, it’s actually really good. It’s really good to get the stenosis diagnosis and ’cause for a long time I just assumed because I gained weight, my, my back wouldn’t work anymore, which was depressing. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I’ve been this heavy before and I have not had this pain. And even after my first like 50 pound sudden weight gain, I didn’t have back pain. So it didn’t make sense that my body just couldn’t handle it, uh, like something else had to be going on. So it was actually much like any diagnosis, I think, um, other than, you know, terminal illness, but for like A [00:06:00] DHD or stenosis or any like mental health condition, it’s a relief to get a diagnosis and find out you weren’t crazy, you weren’t making things up. So yeah, I’m, I’m grateful. Christina: No, I completely like, can, can relate to that. ’cause when I, like with my back, well my cervical spine, um, it was kind of a similar thing. Obviously mine was more acute and it was a different scenario because I got, um, like the, you know, diagnosis relatively quickly, although it still felt like it took longer than, than I wanted it to, to, to get my MRIs and whatnot. Um, but it was similar to you. It was like kind of a relief to be like, oh, okay, so you have like a major problem. This isn’t just you being a wimp and, Brett: Yeah, exactly. Christina: exhilarating pain. Right. Like excruciating pain. Right. And, and just even having that, even knowing, okay, I don’t love that I have to go through [00:07:00] this whole thing. Um, I’m, I’m still like relieved to have a diagnosis and a plan forward. Dental Insurance Racket Brett: Oh, and also I, so I’m on state. Healthcare, and that includes, um, Delta Dental, but it’s this weird version of Delta Dental that nobody in my town accepts. Um, so I have to, I have to drive 45 minutes to get dental care and even then they can’t, he can’t do root canals or anything. And I needed two root canals and that would’ve involved driving two and a half hours or three hours and then going back to the 45 minute away place. And so what I did was I took the extra money I had saved outside of my, like, nest egg savings, but like my working savings. And I paid for a year of actual Delta Dental, um, and started going to a place [00:08:00] just really close to me and, um. It turns out that the best dental health insurance is still shit like it. I don’t know how much dental work you guys get done, but it is, Christina: it’s, it is crappy. Brett: it’s a, it’s, it’s a racket. And I actually watched a YouTube video on why dental insurance is a scam. And it like interviewed Dennis who actually take these like Delta Dental and the Medicaid dentists. Um, and it is truly a scam. And what I found, and this is much the same experience, uh, Christina talked about with her, um, MRII think it was that you did a cash pay. Um, I talked to the dentist and I said, do you have a cash paid discount? And he’s like, oh yeah. And basically. I can just pay cash and do everything for about 60% of the normal cost, and that is better than what [00:09:00] Delta does for me in most cases. Plus, I need so much work that my $2,000 cap with Delta is gone. Christina: Well, I was, I was gonna say like, so when I joined Microsoft, Microsoft used to have really good. Dental insurance, um, respectively speaking as, as good as it can be. But there were still, you know, caps on how much work would be done. But I found like a good person to go to. ’cause I had an incident, um, about a year after I moved to Seattle, maybe less than that, where um, I had to have an emergency root canal and like that sucked. Um, like I went into a normal dentist. She was like, this is what you need. And then I had to like, take an Uber, like over to a guy and see him like that day at like 5:00 PM and I’m like, you know, all like drugged up and, and getting the root canal. And that was not great. And I needed a lot of, of, of work done. Um, and so we split it over like she was a really good dentist and so we split it over. We were like, I was coming close to. The, the end of the calendar year. So she was like, okay, we’re gonna do all of this work and then we will start the next year [00:10:00] when things go forward. And like she knew how to play the system and was like a really good dentist. Well then Micro, then I went to GitHub. GitHub used, um, you know, uh, Delta Dental. And, and that can vary based on plan. Microsoft is apparently on them too. Google also had them on a slightly different plan, and it’s like you never know what you’re getting. And yeah, to your point, because if you need a lot of work done, if you have anything specialized, if you’re, you’re lucky if you get the right plan and you can see a provider in your area, great. But if you don’t, to your point, it is often, this is just fucked up. Like, especially if you’re having to pay out of pocket for it anyway. If it’s part of your employer, you know, benefits, maybe it’s a little different, but it’s like even then it can still wind up being less expensive to just pay the cash stuff than whatever your deductibles are, which have a cap anyway. And, and, and, and, and then, yeah, the, the, the way that the, the Medicaid or, or even insurance pricing works, stuff that they might charge you a very nominal fee for, for like a cleaning or whatever is, or a cavity fill [00:11:00] is gonna be, you know, they’re gonna bill insurance like three or four times that Brett: Right, exactly. So I pay, I pay like 800 bucks for a year of Delta, and that gives me basically $2,000 to work with, plus whatever price they can negotiate. Um, but like you said, like they, they bill three times. Um, so like what still comes out of my like $2,000 pot, um, is higher than I would’ve paid with Christina: If you just paid cash, if you just had an $800 budget, or if you got like, yeah, that’s the thing. Okay. This is an AI app that somebody should build. And I’m saying this hoping that maybe something the audience will, or maybe one of us could vibe code it, because this seems like this would be a relatively easy calculator to do with like certain providers if they, if they, you know, list their things where you could like run the costs and be like, okay, this is, I’m gonna put in this number. This is what my, you know, provider’s fees are. This is what my [00:12:00] insurance thing is. Um, Brett: what my cash pay Christina: this is what my cash pay is. Is it cheaper for me to spend $800 a year on Delta Dental or to just pay cash directly with my, my dentist? Brett: Yeah. Have you as I’ve, as I’ve said to people who have pitched ideas to me in the past, you’re talking about a spreadsheet? Christina: Yes. It is a spreadsheet to be completely out. Yes. But I can now use cloud code to, to to, to, you know, figure out the formula for me is the real thing. Brett: Yeah. There you go. All right. Who’s up? Post Surge Recovery Jeff: Dr. To, um, I can talk, uh, uh, I’m, I mean, I’m doing really well. Uh, I we’re a couple months past, or, you know, a couple months past the operation Metro surge stuff here in January and February, in a little bit of December, but really January. And that was, I’d never kind of experienced like a, a full [00:13:00] taxing of every single person and kind of person I knew and which was amazing. Um, and, uh, and it took a minute when things settled here, um, to, for everybody to kind of figure out what. How to just even enter into the world every day because everything had been driven by what was happening on a almost hourly to hourly basis for, for some time. And, um, and so I kind of moved through that, that period, which was like quite a sort of come down, uh, of adrenaline and, and amygdala sparking. Um, and, and have kind of smoothed a little bit. And, um, and I’m just doing well. I’m having a nice, a nice goal of it right now. Christina: Good. Great to hear. Brett: I, I guess that everything’s relative. Right? Jeff: Yeah. Everything’s relative. Yeah. Yeah. But I think I would call this a nice go of it, uh, even outside the context of comparing [00:14:00] to, to Operation Metro Surge. Brett: that’s, that’s, I, I’m happy for you. That’s awesome. Jeff: I think actually the last time I was on the podcast was with you, Christina, in January right after we had had a raid in our alley, which was even before the surge Christina: You before the big surge, even before Jeff: of an early start. Christina: I was gonna say even before, like I, I, I don’t even know if, if, if the, the, the murder had happened. Um, Jeff: not at all. In fact, we only had 100 extra ice agents here at the time and within a couple of weeks there’d be a woman in front of my house, uh, being pulled out of her car ’cause she was following ice agents and throwing me her phone as she gets tossed into a, into a fucking ice truck. And like it was just, everything happened so fast and so slowly all at the same time. And, and obviously there’s still all sorts of stuff going on, but it is indisputably not what it was in January and February. Brett: I was gonna ask you about that. ’cause like the total number of deportations is only slightly [00:15:00] lower right now than it was during the surge. Um, and they, they removed, they added like, what, 3000 agents and they removed like 800 of them. So, Jeff: they’ve removed way more than Brett: Hey, have they Jeff: oh, yeah. We’re down to, I haven’t, I don’t wanna say the numbers because I haven’t looked at them. We’re, we’re back down to like the high hundreds and we, our baseline is like 1 25. Brett: Okay. Jeff: Yeah. You can tell. Um, it’s, yeah, you can tell. And I, and I’ve been down to the WPO Federal building a a few times, um, which is where ICE was kind of headquartered and there’s just the level of activity there is very low. Um, they had some new vehicles come in at one point about a month ago, but mostly those are replacing rentals that they were using. So it wasn’t like people took it as kind of an indication that they were, you know, staffing up or suiting up again. But it was really just kind of replacing their, their really weird, like sort of duct tape together invasion. Um, it’s kinda like in Iraq when they decided they were gonna [00:16:00] actually armor the Humvees, it was kind of like a little bit of a switch of, of vehicles. Um. Yeah, it’s much different. And like, you know, all the people either in my life or in my community that were in hiding or not, I mean, for the most part, not in hiding anymore vulnerable folks and undocumented folks. And, um, so it’s like, it’s qualitatively and nervous, systemly different Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff: for everybody and still sucks. And there’s still a risk and a threat and, and a horror. And a terror. Brett: Yeah, down here in southern Minnesota, I have not gotten a call to do a food delivery or a grocery delivery for, yeah, a couple months. Um, so yeah, I guess it really has calmed down across the state. Jeff: Yeah. Thank God. I mean, who knows what they’re up to that isn’t as visible, but thank God Brett: exactly. Jeff: over. So yeah, I, I mean it’s, and I actually just had my, my brother’s been in town and every time someone kind of comes to visit, they wanna like. You know, kind of hear or take in what the thing was and you start describing it again, and [00:17:00] now it just, I mean, it felt like a dream at the time. It just felt like, how could this be real? But you were just so in it, like every single person, like you said, Brett, like people were doing grocery deliveries or people were, you know, cooking food for the people that were kind of on the front lines, or you were following ice, or you were dispatching people to follow ice, whatever. It was like every. Single person I could think of as doing something. And uh, and, and so when you try to describe it now, when you look around, especially in my neighborhood where they were all over, um, it it, it seems like, was this, was this real, um, like, was it even real because like, I don’t know, like the end here. ’cause this could go on forever, but I don’t know if any of you saw the footage that went around of a high school called Roosevelt High School, where, uh, where Bovino showed up and there was all this crazy shit and the, the footage of this, um, went around the country and like it was, you know, reposted by freaking everybody that was my son’s school in my neighborhood. And, and so like, it was just this constant thing of like, bovino at my son’s school, binos at my gas station. Like, it was just [00:18:00] utterly insane. And now, and, and every street felt almost, you could feel ice on the streets. Like you would see ghost cars where they had taken people or whatever. You could like, feel ’em on the streets. And so you walk around, you walk around the same streets now, and it’s just birds and kids playing and you’re just like, did that, was that real? Brett: There, there was a tow truck driver that was interviewed who had taken it upon himself to tow those ghost cars for free back to their origin. Um, and just like leave them for people. Jeff: at least, or he would take them in and not charge if you came in for them. And it’s, and that’s just it. Everybody, everybody. It was incredible. It was incredible. Christina: It’s crazy. Jeff: Yeah. All Christina: I hope, I genuinely hope that they’ve lost interest and, and have moved on to other things. Brett: Like Seattle. Christina: yeah. Well, I mean, Seattle is obviously a very different situation and, and that had a, a longstanding, I think, impact. Um, and, and I, I, I. I’ve said this, I said this at the time, people who made that really bad were the [00:19:00] activists who came in outside the so-called activists and putting that in quotation marks who came in, who didn’t even live in the city and agitated things and made things way worse than, than they, than it should have been. Um, but yeah, but I hope that it’s like Seattle, that it just kind of falls like the, the government doesn’t come back and, and continue this, you know, reign of terror. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Surgery And Withdrawal Christina: Um, well, I’ll, I’ll be quick. So I, I had surgery since I guess the last time I was on, Jeff: Sure did. Christina: that went well. Um, the surgery itself, I’m still in some pain, um, in my shoulder after the surgery, uh, which was not like you were fi fixing my cervical spine. But, um, they, uh, I guess however it worked, like I, I think as muscular, um, I, I’ve been going to to to PT for the last few weeks. Um, but I still having some, some shoulder pain. That’s, that’s getting better. Um, the hardest thing was actually some of the medication stuff. So [00:20:00] I, uh, gabapentin, um, I know it’s a lifesaver for a lot of people. I don’t have a good reaction to it. Like I’m one of those people. Like, it, it a, it makes me feel kind of loopy. I don’t like it. B it’s very difficult for me to sleep on it. Um, which, which is a problem and, you know, but, but the big thing is it just kind of makes me like, feel like I’m not kind of in my own head. Like I feel like, don’t know, like, um, altered on it. I, I would say. And so I went off they gabapentin and no one told me, and I am gonna put this as a PSA out there. ’cause I know a lot of people take it. Do not go off of that cold Turkey. Jeff: mm. Christina: They didn’t tell me that. Um, which someone should have, but no one told me that. And it can actually cause seizures if you do other things. But in my case, the real thing was that I had withdrawal. That was some of the worst withdrawal I’ve ever had. In my life ever. And, um, it like awful, like awful, awful, awful to the point that to go off the Gabapentin and they had me on like a, a decent dosage. It [00:21:00] took me a month because I had to keep going basically down like one pill like every week to step down. And, but I mean, I was getting, you know, like, like hot and cold sweats, you know, like feeling like my teeth were gnashing, you know, like nauseous, just like awful, awful stuff. So it took me, you know, a month to go off of that. I had to extend my medical leave in part because of the medication withdrawal stuff, because I was like, I can’t go back to work if I’m gonna be like, still dealing with, with medication bullshit. Um, so, um, that was actually, you know, in some ways like more, uh, of an issue than like recovering from the surgery itself, which was major. Like I, I tried to kind of downplay like what it was, but it was, it was major surgery and um. Um, I’m glad that it’s over. So, you know, onwards and upwards. I’m, I’ve been back at work for a couple weeks. Um, still kind of settling in on that, but, uh, but yeah. Brett: That [00:22:00] withdrawal sounds terrible. Usually you have to do opiates to get that kind of fun. Christina: Yeah, well that was the thing. I saw somebody on, I read it, which of course is anecdotal. I don’t usually look for this stuff, but sometimes you just wanna feel like, okay, is it, is it common for me to have this withdrawal or not? And somebody, and one of the subreddits was like, this was worse than coming off of heroin and I in a jail cell, and I should know because I’ve done that. And I was like, okay, I, I’m not going to equate it at that level, you know, for, for me. But it was definitely like that bad. It was, let me put it this way, it was bad enough that at first I thought. It was the opiate withdrawal because I, they gave me some, some oxy, um, um, contin. Um, and then the doctor was like, no, that’s not a high enough dosage. This is, you know, um, it, it, it probably was gabapentin and, and it, it. What pissed me off is that one of the physician’s assistants or whatever, when I’m telling like my doctor about this, I’m like, okay, if I need another nerve drug, then we need to find something [00:23:00] else. I can go on select so I can go on, you know, something else. But, but I, I clearly can’t stay on this. A, they kind of gaslit me because I’m a woman and obviously my pain and my symptoms can’t be real. So that’s like number one. And that’s just a fact. I don’t care if you’re a male or female doctor, they don’t take you seriously. I’ve complained about that before. Um, b like she had the nerves to say, she was like, well, you know, if the withdrawal is that bad, then why don’t you just stay on the medic medication? It’s not that it, it, it, it’s fine. I’m like, no, it’s not fine. It makes me feel altered. You’re telling me that it’s for nerve pain, that my nerve pain should be fixed if my nerve pain isn’t fixed and if I need something for nerve stuff, then that’s one thing and we could maybe look at an alternative, something that doesn’t make me feel loopy and lets me sleep. But if your suggestion is, oh, to avoid the bad withdrawal, just stay on the drug. I’m sorry, what the fuck are we doing? Um, and, and then the doctor’s like, well, you know, we get this all the time. We never see side effects. And then I looked it up, you know, in the actual drug literature and no, there are side effects exactly like the ones I experienced. So I was like, I recognize that. [00:24:00] I always am usually that like one percentile person who gets like the weird side effect. Like, that’s who I am. I get that. But Brett: crazy. I’ve, I’ve gone off of gabapentin. It sucks. I You’re not crazy at all. Christina: yeah. But, but it just, it just was frustrating to me that like the, the suggestions like, we’ll just stay on it. It’s like, no, like that’s, that’s, that’s not actually gonna be a thing anyway, but onward and upward. Jeff: Yeah. Wow. I’m glad you’re through that. Like Christina: Yeah, me too. Me too. Okay. Sponsor One Skin Christina: Well, I know we have some other topics we wanna get to, but before we do that, um, let’s take a moment to talk about our sponsor of today’s episode One Skin. So, um, you know, I, I’ve gone through a number of different things with my skincare routine over the years. Some have been more effective than other. Um, you know, um, my skin kind of goes back and forth between being too oily and too dry. I’m kind of in a dry [00:25:00] phase right now, and, um, there are tons of products out there that, that promise results. And then you, you get them in the, and they’re, they don’t necessarily work. So, uh, I wanna talk to you about One Skin, which was founded by scientists, and it’s dedicated to longevity. And, um, the, the brand is actually committed to being real science over marketing hype. And so, uh. What they wind up. Uh, what, how, how this works is that they use OSO uh, zero one, which is a proprietary peptide, which is designed to help deactivate the damaged cells that contribute to aging skin. And, um, I’ve been using one skin, um, for a little bit, and I, I’m, I’m liking it. I like how it makes my face feel. Um, I like, um, the fact that, uh, it’s. You know, what the peptides are supposed to do is help basically, uh, support collagen, uh, uh, of production and, and, and strengthening the skin barrier. Um, I’m not alone. There are over 10,005 star reviews and there’s validation from clinical studies and, and it’s making a name for itself in the skincare industry.[00:26:00] So if you are interested in trying one skin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code Overtired at one skin.co/ Overtired. That’s 15% off at one skin. Do co slash Overtired and use that code Overtired. So thank you one skin for supporting our show and check them out. Brett: Awesome. Terminal Widget Reveal Brett: Do you guys, can I tell you about terminal widget? Jeff: Terminal widget. Yes. Set it up. Terminal widget. Brett Terpstra. What’s Brett: so I, I, I wanted, I had scripts running in the background and I wanted a quick way to check them and I thought it should be easy to put. Script output into a, like a widget on the desktop. And I could not find anything that actually worked. Like Shellfish has a widget, but it, it takes minutes to update and it’s flaky and, and the other apps out there [00:27:00] did not work for me. So I thought I would build my own. So I think I started it a month ago. Um, I built a, just something for, you can run a terminal command and update a progress bar or an image or, uh, like sparkline text or just straight up text output from your. Terminal, all kinds of charts and everything, and, and it updates instantly on your desktop, uh, with like a 0.5 to one second delay, uh, which I wasn’t able to find anywhere else. I had to like, use JSON payloads and like basically a cloud kit watcher, um, cloud kit because I did also port it to iOS. And, um, so I can run one command in my terminal or from a script in the background and have my iPhone and my desktop update with progress. Um, I am working [00:28:00] on a watch version of it that is not, I, I have it working in the app, but I wanna make it so it works as a complication. Um, that’s gonna take a little more doing, uh, but this morning and yesterday I spent working on. The Apple script and shortcuts interfaces for it. And I hate designing Apple Script dictionaries, uh, because there’s no, like, there’s no standard for like terminology and there’s no like golden way to do it. And I always end up messing it up even when I do have a plan. This time I think I actually succeeded in building out a dictionary that makes semantic sense and is somewhat. Predictable if you’ve ever written Apples script before, but I also added all of the widgets can be controlled from shortcuts. You just drag in like a chart widget into your shortcut and pass in like a value or like a, a chart of values. It can [00:29:00] do matrices and sign waves and, and line grass and bar charts, and it’s pretty nuts. You can check it out. It’s not available yet, but all of the documentation and all of the screenshots are at Terminal widget app. Um, and I am, I’m pretty impressed with myself and Christina: yeah. Brett: that’s what I’ve been working on while waiting for Mark III to make it through app store reviews so I can finally publish that. I, my latest rejection first, I got rejected, like a couple legitimate. Uh, concerns, but then I had a CLI that I wrote that was embedded in the app bundle and there was an option to create a sim link in your, in your terminal to use the CLI. And this was just a convenience method for like, you give it command line flags and it converts it into URL handlers and they rejected me for Christina: [00:30:00] I was gonna say, I was gonna say, they don’t let you do that. Like what I’ve seen with other apps do is usually there’s like a, um, in the app store is that usually you have to download a helper to install the CL. Brett: right. So what I did, uh, to get past the rejection was completely rip out the binary from the bundle. Uh, if you go to the install cli CLI tool menu item, it simply takes you to a webpage where there’s a, a notarized signed PKG file, or you can install from Homebrew, but it’s completely separate from the app store. And the last rejection said that I was requiring users to download an external app in order to use the app. Which is ridiculous on its face. Like it’s, it’s a convenience method. In no way do you need to download it. Um, there’s no requirement. In fact, it’s almost buried that you would even want it. Um, [00:31:00] and so I argued with the reviewer for a couple days ’cause they were replying like once a day. Um, and then they told me I had to go through a re uh, the appeal process. So I submitted an appeal at four 50 this morning. We’ll see how long that takes now. But in the meantime, terminal Widget is keeping me sane. I’m having a lot of fun with that. Widgets And Visualizations Jeff: I have some terminal widget questions. I’m looking at the site right now. Um, so talk to me about, um, talk to us about your, your initial use case, like was, which you’ve kind of described already, which is you just wanted to be able to check on these scripts Brett: Yeah. I just wanted a progress Jeff: But then Brett Terpstra kicks in ’cause like I just wanted a progress bar and now I’m looking at all the flags and everything else that you could have. You know, I’m curious like of all of the options that are in there, I want you to just share something that might not be intuitive or might not guess you can do. And then I’m curious of like if you have something you’re like, and what I [00:32:00] really want it to be able to do is. Brett: So you can pass it up to a hundred numbers, like a, a list of space or canvas, separated numbers that you can output from whatever script you’re developing. And you can have it, uh, output a sine wave or a um, uh, a waveform. I like the waveform visualization for it. And so you can get like pretty cool visualizations out of. Tabular data basically. And I also just added, um, tabular, like you can, you can give it a CSV file and it’ll generate a table for you. And it really only works well on like the large widget size. Um, but on both, on both iOS and Mac, uh, the tables look pretty good. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. I, I have a, I have a nerdy, uh, well, but less nerdy question. [00:33:00] Um, on the Terminal WIT app website, um, you have like a, a video of a, like, you know, showing off like, um, you know, your, your, your terminal app open and, um, the, the text being typed out. What did you use to create that? Did you use a remotion or did you use something else to generate that Brett: I scripted that, um, I, I wrote if there’s a helper Christina: charm or something? Brett: No, Christina: Okay. Brett: I, it’s a helper. It’s a helper script that it, it clears the screen and then it takes a table of commands and it types the command out with like a jitter delay. So it looks somewhat natural, like typing. And then it actually runs the command in the background. And then once the command’s finished, it clears the screen and does the same thing with the next one. Um, so I can just feed it like a, a, uh, a file with all the commands. I wanna run one per line. Um, and it just types them out and executes them. Jeff: That’s awesome. Christina: Cool. Brett: I know, [00:34:00] like I looked into like using like as, as as cinema. Um, and it just to get that kind of really. Smooth, rapid typing out of it, uh, without, you know, all the backspace and everything. I, it was, I found it difficult to program it to, to code it. And by the time I had it figured out, I figured I should just write my own script for it. Christina: Yeah. There’s, um, there, there’s a, a. Service called Remotion, which can do some of that sort of graphical work, which is what I thought you might’ve used at first. Um, charm has a thing called VHS, which is basically like a CLI home home recorder, which is pretty cool. Um, and I’ve used that before, but yeah, I was just kind of curious, um, what you did, but yeah, you just built your own. That’s awesome. Very cool. Release Plans And Review Christina: Um, now for your, your, when do you think like, because I, I noticed that you have like for for blog book and for terminal widget, you have like coming soon. Is that like, ’cause [00:35:00] you’re still kind of like working on stuff or, um, are you going through review hell with those as well? Brett: I haven’t even tried getting either of those reviewed. Um, blog book I is approved for test flight, um, and anyone who wants in on that can just contact me. It is getting the slowest development out of all my projects right now just because it is, it’s a more niche app that I don’t think is gonna make a ton of money. But, um, mark III is where most of my effort is going. Then I’m working on porting mark three’s, uh, store kit stuff into NV Ultra, and then I can focus on trying to usher terminal widget through app review. Um, I have a feeling that’s going to go very poorly and I may end up just releasing outside the app store, but because it has an iOS Christina: I was gonna say with the iOS component is the hard part. Brett: I kind of have to, so we’ll see what happens. Christina: Yeah. [00:36:00] ’cause I was gonna say, ’cause like, I mean I guess what you could do is if you did something for the iOS F would make it different though. Like if it’s just, ’cause I’m sure it has, it’s working out. It’s pretty much just remote instance that’s showing Brett: No, no, it’s got, it’s a, Christina: you, you built in your own terminal emulator into it. Brett: no, there’s no, no, no, no, no, no. There’s no terminal in this app at all. Like, you use it from whatever terminal or from shortcuts. Um, so it’s all native widgets on both. Christina: right. I was just saying in terms of the app store thing, like, I guess like if since there’s not a native terminal on, on iOS, it’s, I’m assuming that it’s, it’s a remote widget is what I was trying to get at. Brett: Essentially, yes. But if you write a shortcut on iOS that updates the widget, it updates both iOS and Mac os. So it is usable entirely. You could just buy it for iOS and, and it would be a functional app. Christina: okay. Okay. Universal Bundle Pricing Brett: But I do intend, I hope [00:37:00] to sell it as one universal bundle. So you pay like 9 99 and you get the iOS, the Mac, and the watch app without having to buy for every platform separately. Um, I just don’t see it being like such a valuable app that it’s worth making people go through that rigamarole. Christina: right. No, I was just trying to think. Brett: and everyone I’ve shown it to so far has been excited about it and the most common response I get is I will buy this as soon as I figure out what I would use it for. I’m like, yeah, okay. Jeff: Okay, fine. Awesome. AI Boosts Mark II Sales Jeff: And can you talk about how, because the whole world now works in markdown marked, has gotten a bump because I think that’s an amazing story. Brett: Well, yeah, it was. was a few months ago now, maybe six months. Um, my sales just started increasing and I was looking everywhere through all my traffic and all my logs [00:38:00] to figure out where this, where these people were coming from. Um, and it was eventually pointed out to me that if you ask any agent, any AI agent what you should use to view markdown, um, they would point you to Mark two. And it was now, for the last four months, five months, it’s been doing five times the sales year over year. What it was doing, Jeff: How close is it to the highest it ever was? Brett: um, the highest it ever was was actually when it was only 2 99. And Gruber wrote about it. Uh, back in this is like 2000. This was over a decade ago. And, um, back when, like one tweet from Gruber meant like success and that I made that year, I made almost a hundred thousand dollars on it.[00:39:00] Um, this is nowhere near that. This is doing like Jeff: But it’s a highly unexpected bump, right? Like in a delightful, delightful bump. Brett: yeah. It’s doing, it’s doing without even releasing Mark iii, I’m making about half of my former salary off of it. Jeff: Nice. I’m happy for you. Leaving Oracle Behind Brett: Also, uh, one year, um, in two days I’ll be one year out of Oracle and I quite happy about it. Jeff: that’s great. I was wondering about that, Brett: I don’t miss my corporate job. I miss, I miss some aspects, health insurance, paychecks, things like that. But Jeff: that aren’t at all about the content of the job, right? Brett: Well, like that stuff has never mattered all that much to me if I’m happy doing the work. And I really wasn’t happy doing the work. Christina: Well, that’s, that’s the thing. I’m glad that you’re, I’m glad things have been going well. I’m glad that, that the, the agents have, uh, been telling everybody about Mark two. Hopefully they will also tell them [00:40:00] about Mark three. Um. Ninety Hour Workweeks Brett: My, my dentist was doing was doing small talk with me, and he knows I’m a app developer and he asked me, so how many hours a week do you work? And I happen to know the answer because I had just read my timing app report for last week and I said, 90. And he said, oh wow. How much do you make? And he’s like, if you don’t mind me asking. So I told him and uh, it saying it out loud, it’s basically like 20 bucks an hour I get paid. And like, it’s not nothing, but once these apps are out and I can sit back and just make some passive income off of it, I will, I’ll be much Jeff: So it’s 90 because you’re, you’re developing multiple things right now and, and you love it. Brett: I’m pretty much, I’m pretty much on my machine all day except for like an hour for [00:41:00] like getting out, exercising, getting on my recumbent bicycle and an hour for eating. Um, Jeff: Is it time for you to get a trike? I’m serious. Brett: I don’t, I don’t know, I, I actually want to try just getting back on a regular bicycle. Jeff: Hmm. Brett: Um, but I, yeah, like a recumbent tricycle, that’d be pretty awesome. Jeff: dad uses him. He actually just converted one to an to an E-bike. Plus it’s hot now ’cause of DTF St. Louis. Christina: right. Jeff: Awesome. Uh, is that it for your app development because wow, that’s like, uh, quite a, quite a deal. You got anything else in the cooker? Brett: Well, like we talked about blog book. Right? Jeff: Yep. Brett: Okay. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I got. Jeff: Nice. Brett: that’s my big ones. NV Ultra Vaporware Woes Brett: NV Ultra is, um, literally only waiting on me to [00:42:00] get Mark three out and then NV Ultra will be out. And it is well passed a time when it would’ve been a smash hit. Um, when, when Nv, when NVL first started dying before, uh, before something like obsidian really Christina: I was gonna say, if sitting is unfortunately Brett: yeah, they obsidian and five or six other apps have really eaten up market share for, uh, NV Ultra. But it would be nice just to get it published. I have been talking about a replacement for NV for over a decade, and Jeff: Am I gonna get sued if I say this is not your fault. Brett: It’s, it’s not my fault, like none of them have been my fault. Like they’ve all fallen through on me. Um, but I think people don’t believe me anymore when I say it’s coming. In fact, it, in fact, if you ask an AI agent, they will tell you that MB Ultra is vaporware.[00:43:00] Christina: Well, Jeff: a lot ai. Christina: I mean, look at this point, even though yeah, it’s been in beta and you’ve had other things going on. I mean, like it, you know, again, it wasn’t your fault, but, but, but you know, we’ve all been in those situations where you’re like, it’s coming, it’s coming. Or this thing is like, at a certain point you’re like, okay. Like Brett: Yeah. Missing Collaborators Online Brett: Well that there was Bit Writer Christina: TechMate too. Brett: Bit Writer was one that preceded NV Ultra and I was working on that with David Halter, who was a co contributor on VT and. He disappeared. I don’t know if he died or what, but about years ago he just stopped replying to emails, disappeared off of Slack, disappeared from the internet. Just I, and I don’t ha I don’t know his next of kin. I don’t have anyone I can like ask, Hey, whatever happened to David. So if you’re out there, if you’re listening, I’d love to hear from you just to know you’re alive. Just to, just to [00:44:00] check in. Um, I’ve actually had a few people disappear over the last couple months that ha it’s been disconcert when, when you’re used to hearing from someone at least, you know, once a week even. But some of these people were like every day, um, I. Jeff: from them, meaning seeing them somewhere or corresponding or. Brett: Uh, online. These are, these are people I only know online. So like seeing them on Macedon or Facebook or getting emails or text messages from them. Um, a couple of them were in their eighties or nineties, and so it’s not, Jeff: That might be your problem. Brett: it, it’s not out of the realm of the possibility that they have passed on. Um, but some of them were younger than me and one of them has come back after two weeks of messaging, like every other day, like, Hey, are you okay? Haven’t heard from you. Um, finally they’re like, oh, yeah, I’m here. [00:45:00] And offered no explanation for where they’d been or why they went silent, but I didn’t pry either. So. Dan Peterson Secret App Jeff: What is your project with Dan Peterson? That’s on our, our list. Brett: I don’t know if I’m allowed to say a lot about it, but I’ve been working. Dan Peterson is one, the original designer of one password and worked with them for like 20 years before he struck out on his own. And we’ve teamed up, we’re working on a couple things, but one is a a, an IO iOS app that he has put in. I, I don’t even know how many hours into the design of it, like 3D modeling, spline rendering, and um, and then we ported it into an iOS interface. And it is gorgeous. It, it will it when, when it gets to market, which we’re hoping to have it in [00:46:00] testate in time for Max stock in July. Um, it’ll be the best looking app I’ve ever been a part of. It’s gonna be so cool. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: Busy time. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: It’s Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: What else do we got? I mean, Brett, you showed up with a big list. The Pit TV Complaints Christina: I was gonna, is anybody watching anything? Uh, good on TV or rewatching anything? Jeff: I have a serious complaint to put into the world, so I’ve avoided the pit for a long time. Uh, just ’cause I’m, I don’t, I’m not a huge like yeah, Brett: drama. Jeff: it is great. Except are there two separate writing teams for the stars and staff and the people that come in as patients? Because the writing for the people that come in patients is. Awful. They acting sometimes too. Sometimes there’s some people that sell it. I’m only through season one, uh, but I was like, I have been yelling at the tv, uh, about this [00:47:00] for some time. Um, besides also yelling at the TV for the point at which, um, our young friend with a w as a last name Whitaker, who, uh, gets blood all over his face and then they don’t actually immediately clean it up. Um, uh, so I yell at the screen and I like the show, but I yell. I haven’t had a TV show that I’m like, oh, for fuck’s sake now. I mean, I can handle that in The Walking Dead. I can handle that in that kind of movie. But in the ER thing I’m like, come on, you can’t get a writer to handle the patients. I don’t understand. You’ve got an incredible cast, like an incredible cast. Brett: It’s actually all ad-libbed. Jeff: all ad-libs, like the clown. There’s a clown, I won’t give it up, but there’s a, there’s a clown that has been through a mass event and he’s in the, uh, he’s in the ER with his clown makeup on still, and some blood going down his face and at some point he looks around and he goes, what a circus. I just think they, I think, I don’t understand. This confuses me very much [00:48:00] in TV shows when you’re like, okay, you’ve got a great writing team, but clearly you have a separate writing team that is doing just this little job that is actually quite important. So that’s my complaint about the pit. Otherwise, I like it quite a bit. I’m very excited to start season two, probably this weekend. Christina: it’s a good season. It’s a good season. So, yeah, ’cause, because, because I, I, I, um, it, it ended last week and I’m, I’m a big fan of the pit. I will say this, the pit fandom is insane and not in a good way. Like these are people who don’t understand how to watch television shows and don’t understand. Like how television shows work, and, and then also become very entitled about like, how, like their vision of the characters and things should be on a level. Like the last time I’ve seen it, it it’s the same, it’s similar with heated rivalry, but it’s somehow worse because this isn’t like a genre show like that. It’s like low quality for like, you know, middle aged like white women, um, in the suburbs. Um, who, who just like to see two, two hockey players. [00:49:00] You know? Fuck. Um, like, like the pit is actually like, I’m not gonna call it Prestige TV because it’s not er level, but it’s a very good show and it’s extremely well acted. And I think the writing, um, I, I think make a good point about the, uh, the patients not getting as good of storylines as the doctors. But, um, Jeff: no. I don’t need storylines. I Christina: no, I I mean the Jeff: words they Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s, that, that, that that’s what I mean, like, like that, that, that, that I, I, I hear, I hear your Jeff: Because where there’s a patient storyline, those are almost exclusively great. Christina: Yeah, it, so you’re more talking about like, like, like the kind of the background characters, like, kind of like the, the, the one-offs. Yeah, I think, I think that’s fair. Well, a lot of the writing staff and like executive producers are doctors or people who have like, you know, worked, um, extensively in healthcare. And so I, I, I wonder if like, that’s kind of part of it, um, where Brett: they’re really good at writing the doctor’s parts. They’re not so good at Jeff: so good. Oh my God, so Christina: so good at doing the doctor’s parts and, and the procedures. Like they wanna be medically [00:50:00] accurate and like they really, they really are committed to that. There are, um, there are a couple of, I’m trying to think, um, the, the Whitaker thing, I think that was just, I enjoyed that myself. Like the fact that he’s always getting blood Jeff: Oh, I loved the bit, I just couldn’t believe that. I couldn’t believe that through quite, you know, a couple of different bits after that. The blood’s still on his face. I’m like, there has to be a protocol to get blood off your face. Christina: No, there definitely has to be, but I mean, part also one of the running gags first season two. And, and sorry for spoilers, for anyone who hasn’t watched the pit Jeff: Wait, I’m gonna close my ears. Okay. Go ahead. Wave when you’re done. Christina: Rob Robbie can’t pee. And, uh, this wasn’t a real spoiler, but like, but one of the things is like, you know, Robbie’s never able to like, go to the bathroom. Like he can never find a way to pee. So Jeff: I’m back. Brett: you’re safe now. Jeff: I’m back. Christina: you, you’re safe. And I didn’t spoil anything. I was ER Nostalgia and Cast Jeff: The other thing I’ll say about the pit that surprised I did not watch ER and not ’cause out of bad attitude. Uh, it was just a point in my life when I wasn’t watching a lot of tv. Um, I also didn’t realize until I was [00:51:00] like five episodes in that Noah Wiley was a big character in er. I think that’s really cool. Um, Christina: Okay. Okay. I, I understand you weren’t watching TV then, but how did you not realize that Noah Wiley was Jeff: I didn’t know Noah Wiley’s name. Like I, this is just not, I don’t hold names of people. I, you know, I also, on the albums, I love that. I don’t remember song, I don’t know song titles half the time. Um, so I don’t mind You can, you can be very disappointed and express it. And I will accept it. I will receive it. Christina: No, I’m just shocked Jeff: to be better. Christina: because I, I mean, ’cause because I was like 10 years old when ER came out and like, I don’t know, like they were like, that was the number one show on television Jeff: Totally. And I mean, Clooney, come on. I know Clooney. Christina: course Clooney, but, but like, but it was Clooney. It was, but but like the, the, the, the, the original, it was Clooney, it was uh, uh, Sherry Stringfeld, it was um, um, uh, Eric Lesal. It was Juliana Margolis, it was Noah Wiley, and it was Anthony Edwards. So like, Jeff: Oh, my favorite Timber Christina: and I was gonna say ironically going into when er came out, like the, the name was Anthony [00:52:00] Edwards, like, he was like number one on the call sheet, right? Like Clooney I think was like four. Um, and, and then, and then Clooney because he’s a good guy, like blew the fuck up and then still did them a solid and did like a full freaking five years on that show, Jeff: Yeah, which is awesome. Christina: he did not, David, David Caruso, it like David Caruso, who famously like had one, you know, big season of NYPD Blue fucks off to go do a movie career. The movie career implodes, there’s a clause in his contract because A, b, C was so furious about how the way he quit NYPD Blue, that they were like, okay, well you can’t do any television for x number of years. And then his movie career dies and then he has to like come like hat in hand to like CSI Miami. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Well I love the pit and this thing that surprised me is the thing I always stayed away from is like I can handle gore in almost every context except real life. And so like I can do all the gore of the Walking Dead. I can do all the gore of Game of Thrones or something, but like, I was like, I don’t know if I want, [00:53:00] yeah. Gore. I love it. I mean, I love it. ’cause I’m fascinated. I’m just fascinated. I’m like, oh, that’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, right. Like you just snip the fingertip off. That’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, Christina: no, Jeff: the first Christina: they show some of the stuff, Jeff: yeah, the first half. I did this every time I covered my face whenever it was like that. And then all of a sudden I could handle it. And I was like, this is fascinating. This is totally Christina: What episode are you, are you up to? How many do you Jeff: I actually, I only have 15 left. I have the last episode left. Um, and unfortunately, like we’ve had, like my brother’s, not unfortunately, my brother’s been, we had stuff every night until late for like three or four days. And I’m so ready to watch that thing. And now, now my wife’s going outta town, so I’m not sure we’ll even see it for another week. It’s making me crazy. Brett: are you watching it together? And you have to wait for her. Jeff: Yeah. Well, and we, and, and sometimes it’s easy for us to find a show together and sometimes there’s just a long dry spell. And so it’s also just like nice. It’s just nice to have a show together always. Um, and so it’s the combination of like, that’s just nice to do and I’m right at the end and I’m just ready to Christina: And you just wanna do that together? [00:54:00] Yeah, no, it makes sense. Season Two and Other Shows Christina: Um, I, I’m, I’m curious to see what you’ll think of season two. Um, I, I, um, it’s, it’s different in some ways. It doesn’t have like the, the, I’m not spoiling anything, but like, it doesn’t have like a big like, catalyzing event, like, like season one does. Um, but I still think it’s, it’s really good TV and, uh, yeah, definitely one of my favorite shows, um, hacks is Back for its final season. That’s definitely one of my favorite Brett: That Jeff: I never Brett: good. I, I finished season one. Um, I think there’s three seasons or is there more? Christina: This, it is now in its fifth season. Yeah. Brett: Okay. Yeah. I, I finished season one and then kind of forgot about it, and then I just saw some trailers for the new season and thought, oh, I should get back into this. It looks, it looks like it, it, it looks like it did well, um, Christina: No, I mean, shrinking. Yeah. Brett: I was gonna say, the new season of shrinking is really good too. Christina: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um, well, well, uh, bill Lawrence is, is, uh, who created that and he created Scrubs and Spin City and [00:55:00] some other things. Like he’s, he’s really, really, um, good. He also did Rooster, which is now on HBO Max. Um, but, oh, the Scrubs Revival. Speaking of, of new shows, I don’t know if it’s gonna get like renewed because it hasn’t been renewed yet. And so I’m a little bit concerned that it hasn’t been renewed yet, and I only did nine episodes for the first season. But the, the Scrubs reboot, revival, whatever you wanna call it, and I say this is somebody who was a huge scrub fan. I, I don’t consider the, the final season to be scrubs like that. It is not part of Canon to me. Like, I feel like that, that, that wasn’t it, but I thought they actually did an amazing job, um, with the, with the reboot. Like I actually. And, and it was hard for them too because John c McGinley is on Rooster and, um, uh, Judy Reyes is on, um, uh, high Potential. And, um, so, you know, the only like, you know, main characters from the original that they have back in every single episode [00:56:00] are, um, uh, Elliot, JD and Turk. Um, but, uh, and then, and then you see, you know, kind of like, like Carla just isn’t in the office sometimes, but she has some guest appearances. Um, but they actually managed to, to do this, they managed to do like a next generation type of story, but still focused on like the main characters you love, but still kind of bring in like new younger doctors in like a way that I’m genuinely really impressed with how they did it. And, and like it kept the heart and kind of the, the feel of the original, like I, it, it was, I was very, very impressed that they were able to recapture. What made that show so good, um, for, its, I guess they’re calling it its 10th season, but, um, I, I really hope that it comes back because that’s a really good show. Brett: Speaking of reboots, um, they’re rebooting, um, Malcolm in the middle, Jeff: I Christina: Yes, they did. [00:57:00] Yeah. They did a four episode thing. Brett: but what I saw an, I saw Hot ones versus with, um, uh, Frankie Muni and whatever. How Christina: Yeah. Brian Cranston. Who, Brian Cranston. Who, who was, who was the, the father of, of, of Mel King on the pit. Brett: Oh, there you go. Jeff: is so cool. I love her so much. Brett: but anyway, they’re talking about why Dewey wouldn’t come back and basically he was like, I haven’t acted since I was nine. He’s like, he is busy. He is got a life Christina: He’s in grad school, like he went to Harvard and stuff like, like, he’s like, uh, I, which I, I love. And I’m like, okay. You know, I mean, I would’ve loved to see Joey too, but I don’t blame him for being like, no. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: neither, neither did the other actors, I don’t think. I think, uh, it, it wasn’t necessary to Christina: no, I was gonna say he wasn’t because Brett: the Yeah, Christina: mean, look, they were able to do Fuller House without the Olson [00:58:00] twins who were a much bigger part of that show Jeff: Fuller Christina: ever was. And, and I, I, I’m not even like defending Fuller house. Like it was, it was fine. It was whatever. But like, even that, you were like, there were enough characters where you’re like, okay, so, so Michelle isn’t here. And that would’ve been weird, to be honest. I don’t think that, like I know that everybody would’ve loved having the cameo, but it’s like, how in the hell are you gonna have the Olson twins, like as adults, even in a cameo on Fuller House without just completely taking you out of the whole thing. You know what I mean? Brett: Yeah. Christina: Like, it just, it just wouldn’t be possible. But Gratitude App Picks Brett: we try to fit in a gude before Jeff: Should we grab, Christina: yeah. Let’s do a gratitude. Brett: Um, I can kick it off. I got one I’m excited about. Um, found this app called Bezel. Um, I needed to do iOS screenshots and I needed to do iOS recordings, and I played around with using Screen flow and screen Studio and Camtasia, and I didn’t like [00:59:00] any of the ways that they recorded iOS movies. And then I found Bezel and I mean, c So screen recording built into iOS, in my opinion, is better than any of the like screen casting apps can do. Um, but bezel, if you, if you hard co hardwire your phone to your computer and turn on screen, mirroring it can record. Perfect. Um. iOS recordings, and it’s really good at just taking screenshots with a single key key command. You get a screenshot with a bezel like the outline of the phone and a desktop background behind it. So I can just hit command S as I like, move through my phone, uh, and then my right hand on my phone, my left hand on my keyboard, and I can get a dozen iOS screenshots in five minutes, and they’re ready to go, like ready to [01:00:00] publish. It’s really nice. Jeff: That’s really awesome. I’m gonna try that. Christina: Same, same. Do you have one Brett, or do you want me to, or uh, Jeff do or do you want me to go. AI Tools and Claude Code Jeff: Uh, I’m happy to go. Um, so this is, this is, uh, an easy one in a way, but I, I wanna be specific about what’s been so useful. So I’ve been using cloud code and vs code forever. I mean for the last, I’d say two or three months. ’cause I’ve got really, really deep into using cloud code actually for qualitative work. Um, but also a totally bananas project I built that has both a. Physical component and a heavy duty code component, which I’ll talk about sometime. Um, but, um, I, and I’ve used the desktop app for cowork and for like just the standard chat and I’ve loved that, but I never used it for cloud code until this latest update, which added like a really amazing interface for cloud code. Um, which is kind of my gratitude is that tab of the desktop app, which like, when you open it up, it gives you like just an awesome little like, work summary of like comedy sessions [01:01:00] you’ve had, how many total tokens you’ve used, like overall the last 30 days, the last seven days, what your peak hour is your longest streak. It has the like GitHub, like little chart that fills in. Um, and, uh, and, and that’s like been really cool to see. Um, and you can also see your usage of various models. It’s just a nice little thing that pops up. And then when you’re actually working, it’s really amazing because you can pull up these sidebars that have like diffs or like a preview or you can just get a terminal open in there. Um, and I have. I have loved that. I still like feel more at home in the VS. Code. Version, um, and using it there. But I’ve really loved it. And I’ve also just like, I’ve gone really, really deep into cloud code and like agent teams and all this stuff on, on work that I was already doing a lot. But then also just being able to like manifest things that I’ve had in my brain for a long time that are now just like everyday tools. Um, so that’s been really, really exciting. I think like my little, [01:02:00] my journey with AI has been well documented on Overtired, but like, this is the first time that I’ve been in a situation where I’m, I’m doing more than like, ideating and I’m like landing things all the time, which is I’m noticing from like my colleagues, not always easy ’cause you can just get lost in the cycle of ideating. And, and I am someone who traditionally does not land things easily unless there’s like, now is the time that if I don’t land this, it has professional consequences. Like, and then I land something and I, I’m very proud of it, whatever. But I have just been like, I want. To execute this vision. And sometimes it’s 40 hours of working with Claude Code to make the thing work. Like my crazy project I’m not talking about right now, just ’cause it would take too long. Um, but o other times I’m done in an hour or whatever and it’s really changed my life and also like makes my fear of AI super specific. Um, and, and that is its own. Its own piece of doing this. Like, ’cause the AI conversation is often so kind of unsatisfying. ’cause it [01:03:00] doesn’t come with any experience of ai, but you don’t need experience to have good reason to be afraid of it. But like, using it and being excited about it and then feeling weird about being excited about it and then being like, fuck it, this is amazing. Um, but also the deeper I get into it’s like really like nuanced functionality. It’s like, oh yeah, we’re done. Just, it’s, everything’s done. Everything’s different. Everything’s, it’s, yeah. Like, fuck. But, um, but anyway, I’ve been, it’s been helping me to bring some things to life that, um, I’ve, I’ve always, I mean, years I’ve been thinking about them, so that’s been great. Christina: N Yeah, no, I, I, I share your concerns about ai. I think very, very similarly, and I, I obviously work on this stuff, and so I have very like, complicated feelings about like, getting excited by it being, finding a lot of use cases and also being like, yeah, we, this is changing things in a way that there are consequences for that. You know, I don’t know if, if society is prepared for, like, it’s certainly great for the, you know, um, huge Frontier Labs and, [01:04:00] and, and major companies that are raising billions and billions of dollars. But what about like, the rest of us? Um, and, and it, you know, what does it do to various things, but yeah, no, the, the clo the CLO app is, is good. And, um, um, uh, a good call out on their, um, on their code tab. Jeff: Yeah. They just developed that thing so quickly, uh, with Claude code, I Christina: of course. Jeff: it, like it’s developing so quickly and it’s, and it is always like serious value add, Christina: Yeah, which is kind of part of their moat, right? Like they’re trying to, they want as many people to, you know, pay them a hundred or $200 a month as possible. Um, okay. Bookshelves and Audiobooks Christina: Uh, so my, uh, my, my pick is bookshelves, which is, um, uh, app that I, I might’ve found it on, on, on Reddit. And I don’t even like the Mac app subreddit ’cause it’s full of a lot of ai lop and look, this is probably largely generated by ai. I don’t really care. It’s, it’s a good app. So Collibra, which we’ve talked about before, you know, is an e reading app. I do too. But like, it, it, it, it doesn’t have best [01:05:00] interface, you know, and it, it’s kind of unwieldy. Um, so bookshelves, um, there’s a free version for 10 books, um, but there’s a, um, it’s only 4 99. It’s a onetime purchase. It’s available in the app store. It’s available on iOS and on, um, Mac os. It will work as a, you know, um, uh, uh, OPDS, um, uh, server, or what else? So you can, you know, like use it with a calibra type of front end thing if you wanna access your library. That way it doesn’t support Alires Library, but I think you can import books from that way. Um, you can, um, email books directly from your library to your Kindle or your Cobo or, or pocketbook. Um, it, it, you know, supports EPUB and PDF and Moby and, you know, all the Amazon formats and, and the comic book stuff for native reading. I really like it. It’s, it’s, um. One of those apps that, like I’m, ’cause sometimes I’m just like, the, the Books app on, uh, is convenient because it will keep everything synced, but it sucks for [01:06:00] anything else. And oftentimes you have things that are in formats that might not be that, or you wanna store lots of books or search through various things. So if you’re looking for a, a modern e, um, book reader app, or even just like a, a decent epub app on iOS, um, because there are not a lot of them, um, I, I would, uh, I would highly recommend, uh, bookshelves. Brett: Nice. Um, I, I should also mention there’s an app called Book Reader and it is designed for audio books. And so I’ve been finding. There are, there’s some literature of the anarchist variety that you’ll never find in any of the bookstores. Um, but you can buy it through independent presses. And if you get the audiobook version, they usually send you like a folder of MP three files and I didn’t know what to do with them. And book reader, uh, works on Mac OS and iOS and you can just drag a folder of MP three files and it’ll generate a book [01:07:00] with chapters for you that you can then listen to in the app. And that’s been handy. Jeff: That’s cool. Christina: That’s great. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: All Wrap Up and Sleep Brett: right, well, hey, get some sleep. Christina: Yeah. Get some sleep everybody. Great show. Great. Great. Uh, catching up with all of you. Jeff: Yeah, great to see you all get some sleep.

Jeff and Christina are out of pocket this week, so Erin Dawson heroically steps in to keep the show afloat during trying times. Life, religion, dating, blogging… an everything bagel of a show. Sponsor Copilot Money can help you take control of your finances. Get a fresh start with your money for 2026 with 2 months free when you visit try.copilot.money/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Erin 00:04 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:44 Siri Mishap and Water Troubles 05:20 Mental Health and Daily Struggles 11:00 Physical Health and Exercise Challenges 18:45 Productivity Tools and Sponsor Message 21:57 Sponsor Break: Copilot Money 23:59 On Aging 24:53 Vision and Aging 26:55 Intelligent Design and Evolution Debate 28:58 Blogging and Social Media Verification 29:13 The Cost of Verification 30:18 Embracing the Content Game 33:12 Exploring Blogging Platforms 48:10 The Decline of Blogging 50:54 Navigating Employment and Content Creation 55:54 The Art of Dating and Bits 58:30 Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts Show Links Gestimer In Your Face Ghost Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Erin [00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Introduction Brett: Hey, welcome to Overtired. It’s me, Brett Terpstra. Um, Christina and Jeff are both out this week, but I have Erin Dawson here to fill the void. Hi, Erin. How you doing? Erin: Hi Brett. I’m well. How are you? Brett: I’m, I’m, I’m okay. So before, like, for people that haven’t tuned in with an episode with you before, give your, give yourself a brief introduction. Erin: Hey folks, my name is Erin. I, uh, make art under the name Genital Shame. I’m based in Los Angeles, California, and I used to work with Brett Terpstra. Siri Mishap and Water Troubles Erin: I’m doing, I’m doing, uh, you know, that broadcast voice, but I’ve started to. When I’m using CarPlay, I’ve started to speak to Siri in my own Siri kind of as a bit, but I really enjoy doing it.[00:01:00] Hey Siri, play REM. Oh shit. It just, I shouldn’t have done that. I’m so sorry. That activated mine. Um, oh no. And now my home pods are doing it. Can you hear that? Brett: I can Erin: I literally have to turn that off now. I really apologize. Ready? Brett: we’ll wait. Erin: Anyways, that’s, this is a shit show. Okay. I’m turning it off. Uh, that’s who I am. I’m someone who activates, um, the, the dingus. Brett: activates digital assistance. That’s amazing. Um, so update on me. I got water back after four and a half days with no running water. Um, but now I’m showering and washing dishes like a pro. Erin: Oh my God, I’m so that, that truly sounds horrific. Brett: It was, you don’t realize exactly how much of your life [00:02:00] revolves around just running water. Um, it’s true of like anything, when your power goes out, when your internet goes out, when your water goes out. We’ve had all of those things happen frequently over the last year. Um, and you, you realize exactly like how handicapped you are without these kind of. The modern conveniences we take for granted? Erin: Did your pipes break? Brett: No, uh, they did freeze. Uh, the solution to the water problem was heat lamps on the well pump. On the on the pipe, the underground pipe that goes from the well pump into the house is about a foot underground, and that’s where the freeze happened. So we had heat lamps on the ground for two days while we were waiting for a plumber to show up. We just decided to try heating things up and after two days it finally creaked [00:03:00] into life, and then we ran a bunch of water and got it all cleared out. And then you Erin: have a TLC show. Now you’re Brett: you know, Erin: solving Pioneer Living. Uh, Brett: You know what happened because of that, to flush the toilet while that was happening, we were melting snow on the stove and on the fireplace and dumping it into the toilet. But when I first started, I didn’t know you could just dump like a gallon and a half of water into the bowl and it would flush. So I was filling the tank up, which takes about twice as much water. And because I was doing that, I was putting a bunch of silt from the snow. Into the tank. So the little, the rim holes around the inside of the rim of the toilet where the water swirls in those filled up with silt. So once we got running water again, the toilet wouldn’t flush all the way. And I had to go in with a coat hanger and try to clean out all of those holes in the toilet. And I got it [00:04:00] clean and it flushed all the way twice and now it’s. Stuck again because I’m just pushing shit in with the coat hanger. And the silt Erin: by shit you mean you mean silt. Brett: silt? Yes. The, the, the silt is still there and as the water runs it just fills the holes again. And I don’t yet know how to fix that, so that’s gonna be a thing. That’s what I’m doing after this. ’cause, uh, the toilet. It sounds like it flushes all the way, but then you leave and the next person comes in and says, oh my God, why didn’t you flush? Because you know there’s floaters in the toilet. Erin: I. Just watched a Todd Salons movie and, and there is a scene in which, um, a character is, is being sort of abused by her family and the abusive family says, we’re laughing with you, not at you. And she [00:05:00] says, but I’m not laughing. You know, and I apologize. I don’t mean to laugh, but that, that sounds truly horrific. Brett: Yeah, that, Erin: I mean, the shower alone, I, I don’t know about you. I use showers to process, Brett: sure. Erin: you know, showers and walks. That’s where I do it most. Mental Health and Daily Struggles Erin: And like I, yeah, I need it to, this is a very 2019 way to frame mental health, which we can pivot to. Um, but I use it to regulate. Do you remember when we used to say, I feel unregulated? We don’t say that anymore. Brett: I do remember. That was a while ago. Erin: Yeah, it’s 2019 to me, but it maybe had a shelf life beyond that. I don’t know. Brett: Yeah. Erin: but yeah, I use showers to regulate. So even if you’re kind of like me, I, my heart goes out to you that that is really not just inconvenient, but like bad for your mental health. Brett: Your quote reminded me [00:06:00] of an and or quote that’s been going around where it, it’s so, uh, I can’t remember who, but someone says, uh, if you’re doing nothing wrong, what do you have to fear? And the response is, I fear your definition of wrong. Erin: Mm. Brett: I’m like, yeah, nope, that, uh, that’s very apropos to the current situation in Minnesota. Um, but yeah, let’s do mental health. Tell me about your mental health. Erin: Yeah. Uh, I’ve seen better days have been the star of many plays. Do you remember that song, Brett? Brett: No, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Erin: All right, cool. Um, I don’t believe in resolutions because I, I went to college, but, but I do believe in the power of January as a moment of. [00:07:00] Intentional reflection and yeah, goal setting, which can be different than resolutions. And for this January, January, 2026, I put a lot of pressure on myself to sort of remake my physical life, which I hoped would have knock on effects for my mental life. So what’s that mean for me? Every year for the last three or four years, I have done dry January dj, and in the past, the keto diet has worked well for me. So I thought in January that I would, with, with these powers combined, I would become, you know, a superhuman. I’m like 20, 26. I’m getting really, I’m gonna get really hot. And I’m going to [00:08:00] be very critical about the role that alcohol plays in my life. And what had happened was, without getting too much into it, I had a bad first week and it kind of snowballed, reverse snowballs. How does a snowball, what is it? I don’t know. It just got a lot of your, your, your toilet silt in it. Yeah. And, um, and I had no release valves for dopamine. Um, because on keto you’re not eating bread. You are not having sugar. I wasn’t having any alcohol. Um, also, and, and I’ll, I’ll shut up about this in a second. I have a foot injury. A right foot injury, something called turf toe, not TERF, but TURF. [00:09:00] Um, it’s basically what happens if you kind of stove your big toe. There’s a in the ball of your foot that’s like a repetitive stress injury. I’m not a p uh, podiatrist, but that’s, that’s my beat. Very basic understanding. And so what does all this mean? That mean this means that it was like a perfect storm of like. I can’t exercise and I exercise is really, plays a really huge role in my mental health. I am in two different basketball leagues, you know, uh, I take a lot of walks. I’m a runner. Couldn’t do any of that. And I couldn’t have Alfredo and I couldn’t have fornet. And so no wonder. And in hindsight with therapy, I’m like, yeah, no wonder I, I just didn’t have any release valves, um, for joy. So in the third week I’m like, fuck [00:10:00] it, I am gonna have fries and I’m going to have a tiki drink. And I don’t regret doing that, but I fear. That, and I think, I think you have this too, Brett, the like, puritan guilt, complex guilt for just like not organizing a particular corner of your fridge correctly, just like that level will give me, be like, oh man, I, I really do suck. Huh. Um, so that scales, you know, that feeling and that complex scales and so it’s easy for me to be like, man, I have no integrity. Huh? I really just. When I got tough, I just, uh, which is also an unhealthy way to think about things, but, um, but I’m, I’m kind of over it now. Uh, but uh, I was pretty disappointed in myself for a while there. I still kind of am. That’s how I’m doing. Brett: Wow, that sounds, that sounds pretty rough. [00:11:00] Physical Health and Exercise Challenges Brett: I, uh, I don’t, I, so I haven’t had a drink in as long as I can remember. Um, because I have a very short memory. It’s only been a matter of months, but, um, I do, I don’t miss drinking. I miss having that release. Um, and I, my only substitute has been CBD. Which is, you know, doesn’t do jack shit. Uh, it’s like a mental game for me. Um, have a, I I I’ve switched to drinking CBDT ’cause it’s way cheaper than like CBD carbonated beverages. Um, so for like 50 cents I can have a mug of five milligrams of CBD and pretend I feel okay. Um, that’s. It’s alright. Um, I do, so my release has been consuming [00:12:00] these outshine coconut bars, which. I find a perfect blend of fatty and salty and sweet and, um, they, as of like two weeks ago, outshine has discontinued them, which had an outsized effect on my mental health. Erin: Yeah. Brett: I bought the last three boxes that were at the grocery store, and those lasted a little bit, and then I was down to two bars and I decided, I, I I would ration them. And night after night, I just looked at those bars, but I wouldn’t, ’cause if I ate one of them, that would mean I only had one left. So it’s easier for me to have two left. So I had two sitting in the fridge, and then yesterday l went to a different grocery store and I said, just on the off chance would you check. And she came home with seven [00:13:00] boxes, six to a box. So yeah, I, I got, I hugged her. They were not expecting it. I like jumped up, just effusively, Erin: What do you, I have never had even this affinity for like my favorite meal. What do you like about these bars? Brett: Oh my God. They just like, I don’t know my, they like dopamine rush, pupil, dilate. Um, Erin: D filled? Brett: no, they’re just sugar. It’s sugar and coconut. Sugar and coconut. Dairy free. Gluten-free. Like it’s a, it’s a sugary snack and. Uh, so I’ve been like my, I don’t know what happened. Uh, it somewhat coincided with my last weight gain, but not exactly. But now I can’t stand up for more than about five minutes. [00:14:00] Um, just like if I empty the dishwasher, the, the act of bending over a few times, I have to sit down and I have to recover for 10 minutes. My back just freezes up and I’ve gone through physical therapy and I have, I like push myself every time it happens. I like, without injuring myself, I try to push it and try to strengthen and nothing helps, like nothing changes at all. That combined with my dizziness, which is still a thing, means the only exercise I’m getting is like half an hour a day on a recumbent bicycle, um, which gives me leg exercise and a little bit of cardio and not much else, and it doesn’t seem to strengthen my back at all, and it doesn’t seem to help me sleep and I keep doing it because I have that guilt thing. If I don’t do anything then. I’m a piece of shit. Um, but [00:15:00] man, I, yeah, the coconut bars are like the only, the only way out. Erin: The Brett: all I’ve got. I’m working, I’m working on finding something new because seven boxes will last a while, but not forever. It’s still a finite amount. Um, Erin: of spring, maybe you Brett: yeah, no way. I eat, I eat a couple a day. Erin: Oh, okay. Brett: a once a week treat for me. Um, so, so I, I’m trying to like ration and I’m trying to find an alternative that is more healthy, not less healthy. Um, we’ll see. I’ll keep you posted. Erin: The guilt thing. I’m gonna, I’m gonna be thinking about the, uh, digital device dingus thing later, there are people for whom, you know, but wait back to the, the treats and living a treat based [00:16:00] lifestyle, which I’m really trying not to do. I’m really trying not to Brett: reinforcement. Erin: I think I, this is the second time I’m, I’m bringing up therapy, but I think I, I brought up that I live a treat based lifestyle up to my therapist and she didn’t, doesn’t love that paradigm of thinking. Um, but it’s kind of all I know. And for me, you know, given this month the treat that I have had before breaking. And now I’m in this habit, and now I’ve, I’m in a trap. I have taken two using, having heavy whipping cream in my coffee each morning. Um, and it’s like adding ice cream to coffee. And so I make my coffee and I have my heavy weapon cream, and I get my little frother that [00:17:00] looks like a vibrator. A very small vibrator, and I do vibrate heavy whipping cream with my coffee in a deli container. And that, unfortunately, I, I’ve tried going back to black coffee, which is my norm. Can’t do it now. I, I really, I’m trapped and unfortunately that is the height, that is the best part of my day. Brett: Do, do Erin: coffee. Brett: I have a suggestion? Um, have you ever tried barista blend oat milk? Erin: I don’t do oat milk. I’ll just say it. Brett: Okay. Erin: Yeah. Brett: It’s all I do. I, I like for me, whatever milk I’m used to is the milk. That’s good. Um, and like I got used to soy milk and everything else tasted crappy. And I got used to almond milk and then I finally like switched to oat milk, got used to that. And [00:18:00] now every other milk tastes terrible. But once Erin: Yeah. Brett: I switched to oat milk, I no longer could like make a good, um, like latte. And I like, it didn’t, uh, it didn’t foam at all. But then I found Barista Blend from C Calisa Farms, and it’s like a full fat oat Erin: Oh Brett: for as much fat as you can get out of oats. And it, it, it fros. You can put it in a steamer and get a nice big frothy latte out of it. Um, but just a suggestion. I can’t do the heavy cream, or I probably would just by lactose intolerance and Erin: Yeah. Brett: lactose allergy. Productivity Tools and Sponsor Message Erin: We talked about, I’m gonna try to combine two topics right now. We talked about Gude and you also suggested before we started recording that I stop you at a half hour [00:19:00] for the A read. We’re not quite there, but as soon as you said that, I pulled down on my. Menu bar, a little app called Just Timer. Brett: I love that app. Erin: Do you Brett: yes. Erin: I, I have, I do have not upgraded to the sequel. Just Timer two, I think it’s Brett: I haven’t tried that. Erin: I think I, I think I tr I did a trial Brett: It’s just such a good idea. Erin: it’s great. And so. have about nine minutes before you’re requested, but I, I just wanted to, I guess, shout out Jess Heimer because it rules. Brett: Yeah. No, it’s such, it’s so for anyone who hasn’t used it, it’s just a way to like, it’s almost like pulling a cord. To set a timer, and it’s just this simple, like you reach up to your menu bar and you just pull down and you pull down the amount you want and you let go and you’ve got a [00:20:00] timer running and it’ll remind you in that amount of time Erin: The main use case I had for that when we worked for the Borg together on the Borg team, was using text expander to, you know, if we had a meeting at three o’clock, I would pull it down for 2 55 and type. MTNG, and that would create a, a string that just says meeting in five exclamation mark. Um, it’s just, it’s just a great time saver and, and keeps you honest and yeah, it’s a great app. Brett: I, uh, I’ve written a lot of command line utilities, so I can like, just on the command line, I can just type, remind me five minutes and then a string, whatever to do, and it runs in the background and it uses like terminal notifier, whatever’s handy at the time to like pop up a reminder. But I kind of gave that up. So now I use just timer. And have you seen in your face. Erin: I don’t know in your [00:21:00] face. Brett: In your face ties into your calendar. You tell it to go off, say five minutes or one minute, or on the time, and anytime an event happens, it blocks out your screen. Pops up a little dialogue telling you what you’re supposed to be doing at that minute and you have to like say, join call or dismiss. And, um, ’cause I, I miss notifications all the time. And when we were working for the board, I would just completely miss meetings because I’d get into coding. I wouldn’t notice the little. Things in the corner, I’d be focused on code and I’d look up two hours later and be like, oh God, I gotta text someone. Sorry I missed the meeting. So in your face stops me from working and like, takes over the screen. Erin: That Brett: So those are, that was our gratitude. I’m gonna do a, a quick sponsor read. Sponsor Break: Copilot Money Brett: This episode is brought to you by [00:22:00] copilot money. Copi copilot money is not just another finance app. It’s your personal finance partner designed to help you feel clear, calm, and in control of your money. Whether it’s tracking your spending, saving for specific goals, or simply getting a handle on your investments. Copilot money has you covered as we enter the New year. Clarity and control over our finances have never been more important with the recent shutdown of mint and rising financial stress for many. Consumers are looking for a modern, trustworthy tool to help navigate their financial journeys. 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Download copilot money on your devices or visit, try. Do copilot domo slash Overtired today to claim your two free months and embrace a more organized, stress-free approach to your finances. Try that’s, try copilot money slash Overtired. On Aging Brett: Ugh. [00:24:00] people are, people aren’t gonna know how many edits I put in that. had a rough time with that one. Erin: Reading’s hard. Brett: I’m, I’m, I’m working on my two big displays. I have two, like 27 inch high def displays, but I, I’m used, I’ve been working on my couch on my laptop for months now. Um. Like Mark II was written entirely on my couch, not, not at this fancy desk I have. Um, and on this desk everything is about three feet away from my face, and I don’t have the resolution set to deal with the fact that my eyes are slowly turning to shit, so I can barely read what’s on my screen anymore. I have to like squint and lean in, and. Vision and Aging Brett: It is so weird that I, I’m told this is just a normal thing that happens at my age, but when I try [00:25:00] to read small print on something, I can’t see it. But if I lift my glasses up and remove my glasses, everything within a foot of my face is clear as day, and that never used to be the case. But now I can see way better without my glasses than with my glasses at very close range. Which means when I wear contacts I really can’t see either. They gave me a, a special kind of contact that the eyes are interchangeable. I have different prescriptions in each eye, but it doesn’t matter which. So the contacts are kinda like universal. I don’t know how it works, but they’re supposed to give you pretty good distance and pretty good closeup while not being especially good at either. And they’re okay. Um, I can’t really, I have to squint to read street signs and I have to squint to read medication bottles and I just spend a lot more time in glasses. Now. Erin: This is one of those [00:26:00] moments where I cannot relate, but I am here Brett: Do you have 2020 vision? Erin: I believe I do. Brett: Wow. Must be nice. Erin: It is nice and I’m gonna own that. Yes, I’m privileged. Ocularly, get off my back about it. Brett: I, I wasn’t giving a shit. I’m, I’m happy for you. I had 2020 vision up until I was about Erin: 2020. Brett: 10. Erin: Oh Brett: I got glasses when I was 10. I. Erin: mm. I bet you Brett: I guess no, I did not have 2020 vision. ’cause I remember at the age of 10 when I got glasses and realized that from a distance, trees had leaves, um, I was like, oh my God, I’ve been missing out on Erin: God is real, bro. Intelligent Design and Evolution Debate Erin: You know, Christians usually, I don’t know about you, but sometimes I, I grew up [00:27:00] with this idea that like. Intelligence, intelligent design is a thing because take something as incredibly complex as the human eye. Tell me that there wasn’t a designer for that, but also like if you’re over 30, like take something as complex as like the human back. it’s not that they’re not that they’re saying that eyes don’t have quality issued degradation over time. It’s a different argument, but it’s just like also like not everything’s that intelligent. I mean, Brett: but the other part that I grew up with was that our, we aged and our eyes went bad, and our back went bad because of sin. It was all like a result of the original sin, and according to like Young Earth creationists, like every generations of humans that get farther away from Adam and Eve. Get [00:28:00] are, are in worse health. They’re, they’re genetically deteriorating, uh, Erin: they’re genetically sinful. Brett: Yeah. And it, it is. I don’t know. It took a long time to unlearn a lot of that stuff, but my dad brings Erin: evil. Brett: it’s called the watchmaker argument. Um, and my dad brings it up anytime we start talking about evolution, which I generally avoid these days, but he brings up the idea of the, the eye, the human eye. Erin: They love the human eye. Brett: I explain to him the, the process of like light sensing cells on amoebas. Erin: Our skin Brett: how, and how they developed into maybe a light sensing cell with a water sack, and then that developed into over time a retina. And like it’s not designed. Um, dad, it, Erin: Oh dad. Brett: yeah. Erin: Anyways. Blogging and Social Media Verification Erin: Can I talk to you about [00:29:00] blogging? Brett: Could you please? Erin: Well, here’s, let me set the table so I not to brag. Became Instagram verified recently. Why? Brett: Must be nice. The Cost of Verification Erin: Yeah, Brett: More privilege. Erin: the first, the eyes are now $13 a month. I don’t know, I don’t know how the bank’s, you know, letting me spend all this, but, um, I did it because, as I said at the top, when the REM may have been drowning me out, I don’t know. Um, I make music under the name Genital Shame and. Over time, as my account has grown on that particular platform, I have had other people alert. I’ve had followers alert me that there’s a new genital shame that just popped up in their feed asking for, Hey, my account was just hacked. [00:30:00] Like, can you help? You know? And I just thought that like for $13 a month, you know Brett: That’s how they get you. Erin: That’s fine. Yeah, get me. I’ve, they already, they already got me. Um, unfortunately, Brett: Zuckerberg that cloned your account. Erin: I got sucked. Embracing the Content Game Erin: So I, so now that I’m verified, I’m, I’m kind of leaning into playing the stupid content game, which is this, which is how, here’s how I think about it. I believe in my art. I believe in what general shame is and I want the maximum amount of people to experience it. The maximum amount of people are in the primary world, which is to say the digital world and the folks with who would resonate with general shame the most are on a platform called Instagram. So it makes sense [00:31:00] for me to play the game, which is like get the. Aforementioned eyeballs on my stuff. ’cause again, I believe in it. So I’ll do whatever it takes. Inc. Like we live in the world of Caesar. We own to Caesar. What a Caesar, in this case, Zuckerberg is Caesar, whatever. So one of my January projects, you know the, the Capital G. Capital M, good month that I was supposed to have was to block out some ugh content. To record some videos, right? Some reels of me playing Bach, of me playing, um, my favorite carcass riff or whatever. And so I found myself writing little essays about each of these things. You know, for the Bach one, there’s, I started writing about how, you know, I don’t believe in God anymore really, but [00:32:00] if I was to cite one thing that gets me. Close to it, it would be Bach like. I’m not predictable like it is. It resonates with me so fundamentally and so deeply that like that is the one thing. And I ended up writing way more than can probably fit within an Instagram comment. And then I got bit by the bug, which is like, do I, should I? Extend this to a platform that is more appropriate for long form writing. So then I’m like, okay, Erin, be realistic about starting projects that you don’t finish or won’t be consistent with. So for me, I’m defining that as one blog per month seems reasonable enough. I don’t know, but I really, I’m a writer. When we were part of the [00:33:00] Borg, you know, we were writers partially, and I found that writing alongside these stupid reels was really satisfying. Exploring Blogging Platforms Erin: So then I’m like, okay, what in 2026, what levers do I have to pull? For this type of platform. We got Ghost, we got Tumblr kind of making it a comeback. We’ve got Substack, which has shitty politics. Um, I could do something on my GitHub pages or something if I wanted to, but I. Don’t know. I don’t know how to make this decision. This is, I, I’m just bringing this up as a topic. I don’t have anything further than that. I think you may have mentioned a platform that you like, but I just thought it might be interesting to talk about. Probably Brett: No, there are, there are a lot of options. I personally. Have gone the way of static site [00:34:00] generators like GitHub pages would be, um, and will probably never go back to anything that’s based on a database or requires an online subscription. Um, I just pay a few bucks a month for a shared host and our sync, my blog to it, um, which is a super nerdy way to blog. Um, but ultimately you get. A, a folder full of markdown files that you can do anything you want with, and you can turn it into a book. You could turn it into a searchable database in obsidian. Um, you could load it up in NB ultra and have full text, rapid search, and all these things that you can’t really do with something like WordPress or Ghost. Um, WordPress is still the heavyweight. as much as it’s kind of a beast and I don’t enjoy using it, um, but ghost, [00:35:00] I just, so I’ll tell you why I bring this up in a second. But, um, ghost seems like maybe the best intermediate option. Um, I, I don’t like blogger. I don’t like Google. Um, I don’t have a lot of faith in Tumblr. be, uh, to have longevity. That’s the other thing about a static site is. I am in full control, and if I want to sunset it at any point, I just cancel the domain. But as long as I have a web server, I have a website, and I’m not dependent on any service that, you know, showed up and failed to make a profit and then terminated, as we’ve seen multiple platforms do, um, or, or turn into like a heavily paywall system that is geared like medium. Substack where [00:36:00] ultimately it’s supposed to be a moneymaking endeavor for the writers and like I use my blog as a marketing tool, but I don’t expect a lot of people to pay to read my blog. That said, I am pay walling some content these days, um, just to get people to pitch in a few bucks a month because. I never got into Patreon or anything, but I’m building this tool. This is a side note. Um, I showed you the icon for it the other day, but I didn’t show you the tool. Um, it’s called blog book. And right now it works perfectly with WordPress, but I, this morning I’ve been working on adding Micro blog, which is another good option. Um, and it might, micro blog might actually be kind of, no, it’s not, it’s got like a 300 character limit for most posts. But, um, anyway, uh, [00:37:00] micro Blog and Ghost. I’m adding so that if you’ve had a blog for a couple years and you want some kind of hard copy. This app will pull in all of those posts, let you Filch them by author or by tag or category or a date range, and it’ll generate a markdown book for you. And you can load that up in Mark three, and you can create an eub that you could go sell if you Erin: Oh wow. Brett: Um, you could turn it into like a PDF for distribution or just for your own archiving. Um. I may add more platforms to it over time. Medium killed their API. Um, so I can’t, as much as I would love to have it work for Medium, I think it would be really useful for medium authors. Um, medium made that impossible, but, um, but yeah, I actually, I built that app in about a week and I’m gonna sell [00:38:00] it on the app store as kind of a companion to Mark three. Um, as like a one-time purchase, not a subscription. Um, but yeah, I, I love blogging and I love blogs. I’ve been blogging for 30 years and I, I don’t know what I would do for expression, ’cause I’m not, I, I, I use Mastodon and that’s about it for social media. Um, I still have, uh, uh. Instagram account and I log on and I, I love seeing your, your older reels where you would just like, just fuck around with a cord or a simple progression and the face you would make when you messed up. I love that. Erin: I’ve never messed up. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Brett: I would watch just to see you make that like grossed out face. Like, what the fuck sound was that? Um, um, [00:39:00] but. Yeah, I, social media is so ephemeral though. It’s, there’s no guarantee of your post being anything other than AI fodder and like, I left x, I left Twitter. Erin: Everything app. Brett: Yes. Um, completely deleted myself there. Um, deleted myself on threads. I still have a Facebook account. Um, Facebook and Blue Sky are actually surprisingly my political activity accounts. Um, Facebook is where I complain about billionaire. Um, about Zuckerberg’s and the what not. Um, and it’s where I share with my activist friends in the area, like it’s mostly for local people. And then Blue Sky is where I get like all my anarchists. News and all of the news right now from like the [00:40:00] front in Minneapolis, the people that are out there doing direct action and, and uh, mutual aid and seeing things live as they happen. And I never appreciated blue sky until the federal occupation of Minnesota and then suddenly it became my primary news source. Um, so Erin: pretty good for that. There’s a, there’s a journalist I follow there. I think she’s pretty, like the, the, the trans beat is her beat. Erin Reed. Um, she’s really great. Um, but you’re, you’re all, all that to say, I think blue sky functions really well. Yeah. As like a, a new, like, I canceled, I canceled my New York Times subscription, um, because god damn, Brett: Yeah. Erin: just their opinion section alone is just trash. Also, yesterday, um, you know, the time of this recording was, there was a protest in March yesterday, which very cool. I also. Canceled. The, [00:41:00] another, another dimension of that day was about, you know, anti consumption, not spending anything, not buying anything, and canceling subscriptions if you can. And yesterday I did cancel my prime subscription, which was hard to do. But, you know, I did, I and I, I was thinking about this a couple months ago before moving, but I was like, you know, I’m gonna move. I’m only human. Like the two day shipping thing is going to come in handy for real. Like ordering things to the new apartment knowing that it’ll get there. You know, I’m glad I did that. That’s cool. But like, now’s the time where I’m a little more settled and I can do that. And so I did that yesterday. Um, but anyways, blue sky’s cool for political stuff. Brett: I. I have been trying to cut Amazon out. I removed Alexa from my life entirely. Um, I had it, Alexa is a good [00:42:00] cheap solution for like whole home automation. Um, so, but I replaced that with home pods and, um, I only buy from Amazon if I absolutely can’t find something somewhere else. Um, because these days, because of competition with Amazon, almost every vendor will offer free shipping. Not always two day shipping ’cause they don’t have the infrastructure for that. Um, but, uh, but I’ll get free shipping and I’ll get comparable prices. And Prime doesn’t really save me anything anymore, and I never use Prime video and I’m Erin: terrible streamer. It’s a terrible streamer. Brett: I’m on the verge of canceling that as well, and once I do that, I will be mostly free of Amazon. Erin: That rocks do. I think that’s really cool. I, I was thinking about this the other day too, that like canceling Amazon [00:43:00] has knock-on effects that I think are really positive as well. For example, you know, I’m lucky to live in a city where, you know, I have within walking distance to me a lot of options. So if I needed packing tape or I needed. I don’t know, some pilot G twos or whatever, like instead of for let’s say, let’s say it’s a project specific thing, like I need a certain type of pen or whatever. Instead of being like, I will order these, do the two two day shipping and put off that project for when I have that tool. Instead, which shifts the nature of the project. Like on a project level, you’re thinking about differently already. And so instead, by not having the affordance to do that, I can get out of my house. That’s a good get sun. That’s another capital G. Good. See human beings interact with human beings, you [00:44:00] know, and then also do the project the same day and not give money. To AWS, which is the backend for a bunch of evil shit. Like, it just like, you know, it stacks. Brett: Yeah. Erin: So, I don’t know. Brett: Yeah. I don’t have options Erin: It’s a lot. It’s a privilege at see above, like I’m very ocularly privileged. Brett: Yeah, no, I, I mean, there are, there are some good. Stores in my little town. Um, we are, we are fortunate to have a community that will support some more esoteric type of stores. And I don’t shop at Target and I don’t shop at Walmart, so, um. I have to depend on the limited selection in small town stores, and a lot of times I can make due with what I can find locally. Um, but I do have to [00:45:00] order. Online a lot, which is why it’s been a slow process to wean off of Amazon. But Amazon is shit now too. Like you, it seems like you have selection, but you really don’t. It’s just a bunch of vendors selling the same knockoff thing and, uh, you don’t save any money if you’re buying like an original version of a product that Amazon didn’t already like bastardize and undersell, um, or undercut the seller on. Um, and it’s so much low quality and they tell you every time you buy Prime tells you you’ve saved $5 with Prime, but if you went to the actual vendor website, you would’ve saved that $5 anyway. Um, it’s shit. Amazon is shit, but yeah. So anyway, about, about, yeah. Erin: Um, uh, go ahead. Brett: I was gonna ask that we, we kind of trailed off on the blog discussion, but I just wanted to say [00:46:00] like, if you have questions about any platform or you do wanna do like a static site, I’m more than happy to help. Erin: Thanks Brett. I think I was gonna, I might take you up on that I, another direction I was going to go with this is like, I could also see someone saying like, systems order thinking. Like, what is your goal? Like, who is this for? And that’s also where I have some internal resistance because I’m on the precipice of being a douchey content creator or something in which this fits in. being cute about it, but like this fits into an ecosystem of like maybe a new career pivot for me. ’cause we’re not part, part of the Borg. So like I’ve started teaching guitar, like I went to school for music. I used to teach guitar a lot, classical and jazz guitar, and I haven’t done it for like 15 years. I just started doing that again and I can’t believe. [00:47:00] A couple things. How good I am at it. I’m a natural, like I, it sucks to be good at something, but you know, it, it doesn’t pay at all. So it’s like, um, so a couple things like do I want to start teaching again and do I want a blog to sort of be part of a funnel into a Patreon? And do I want the Patreon and. All these questions, you know, start forming around this. Like, well, I just want a blog. It’s like, why, why do I wanna blog? And I, I don’t think I have to have the answers to those questions right now. I don’t. But it seems like the choices you make, the very, like the zero width choice you make for a tool like this is really important. So that’s, that’s the other kind of. I’m having [00:48:00] internally about it, who cares? Like all the stakes. Ultimately, who, who gives a shit? Like, there are no stakes here. But I, I do think about it as a sort of like, you know, The Decline of Blogging Brett: I, I will say that everything about my career is due to blogging. Like since, since like the year 2000, um, every job I’ve gotten has been because people found me via my blog. Um, and when I have like applied for a job, they’ve used my, they’ve been like, oh, we went and read your blog and we think you’re a great candidate. Erin: But don’t you think the excuse my use of this term, the meta around blogging has changed? Or do you think it’s like that stalwart Brett: it, it, it really has like tremendously. Um, Erin: like just to be crude about it. Okay. Brett: Yeah. So like in, uh, maybe. [00:49:00] 2015, I was doing about a hundred thousand page views a week. Um, right now I’m down to more like, I think last time I checked I was doing like 8,000 page views a week. And if I look at the charts, it’s just been a steady downward trend. Um, people are not you, pe so, okay. That said, I still get about 30,000. Hits a week from RSS, which means there’s, for a nerd, for a tech site, for a tech blog. Like there’s still an audience that uses the ancient technology, RSS, um, and I get a lot of traffic from that. But in general, like social media has eaten my lunch as far as blogging. But that said, like, the only reason anyone knows who I am, and I’m not saying I’m famous, but like I, I Erin: I’ve been to Max. [00:50:00] You you have an aura? Yeah. Brett: and uh, it’s all because of 30 years of blogging. And I think, honestly think it takes like 10 years just to build up a name. So it’s not like a, oh, I’m gonna start a blog for my shop and everything’s gonna take off, Erin: Yeah, I think, I think if you, for, for the employment alone, it might, it might be worth it, I think. I think that’s huge. Like, you know, the Borg or Pre Borg, a OL where, you know, like if, if, if they were like, oh my God, yeah, you’re Brett Terpstra from Brett TURPs. Uh, like that’s worth it even if you’re getting zero clicks and they found, you know, Brett: What do you Nell from the movie Nell? Um, did you Did what? Oh. Did you give up on finding, uh, gainful employment? Navigating Employment and Content Creation Erin: no. But I give I [00:51:00] gainful employment. Um, no, but I’m taking it a little sleazy and I’m taking it a little easy. Um, unfortunately, it is a truth universally acknowledged. My version of every gainful employment that I’ve, that I’ve enjoyed is through blogging. My version of that is any. Job at that level that I’ve enjoyed has started with a dm. It’s never started with a, a shot in the dark application through Workday. Like it’s just, and I’m convinced that that’s true for everyone. Like I suspect that’s maybe the dark truth that. The it, it’s not what you are or what you can do, it’s who you know, unfortunately is an organizing principle for anything in life basically. And [00:52:00] being under someone’s employee is probably no different. So on one hand, the Puritan. Really creeps up on me here. On one hand, I’m like, oh, I’m not really spending a lot of time crafting my portfolio. I’m not really spending a lot of time crafting my resume and tailoring it to this position. I should really be doing that. I, the economy is be, my bank accounts are really behooving me to do that. But on the other hand, I’m balancing it with that truth, which is. waiting for the dm. I’m sending dms. I can play that game if I want, and I’m kind of trying to, but only to get the guilt monkey off my back, not because I have good. It’s a good faith bid for the universe, for some HR hiring manager, whatever, to be like, okay, I’m gonna Filch by this. I’m Filch by this. This is a cool candidate. It won. I’m convinced it won’t [00:53:00] happen like that. I could be wrong, and maybe that’s the case for you too, but like it’s more of a personal connection off of CRMs, know? Brett: I, uh, I stopped panicking. My, my app income is sufficient right now to survive, and I’m working to make it more than just survival. And like over the, over the course of a few months, I sent out prob, probably 150 resumes, like shots, shots in the dark. But I had, I had referrals, multiple referrals from. AWS Google, apple, like meta, like I had people at all of these places and I still, I could barely get a response. Um, I would apply for jobs I was wholly qualified for. I would, Erin: Probably overqualified Brett: I would craft the resume. I would take my time, and I wrote a different resume for each, at least [00:54:00] for the big ones. And, yeah. Yeah, I did it all. I had a whole, I had a whole workflow, an automated workflow where I could just write like in markdown and then hit a button. It would generate like a nice PDF that I could Erin: God damn right. Yeah. Brett: Um, and none of it, it didn’t do any good. And eventually I just stopped wanting it. Um, I would much rather just make my own way at this point. I couldn’t. I can’t wrap my head around being in a corporate environment anymore. I just don’t, I don’t wanna play that game. I want the money, I want the steady paycheck, but I just, I can’t play the game. Erin: Is the game to you doing the like, um, dom sub theater of like, I must respect my manager. My manager knows the way, even if they’re wrong, I ch raise my, you know, objections lest I Brett: know me, you know, I objected all the time. [00:55:00] I, I was full of objections and I, I don’t like, I don’t like the, I don’t like sitting in meetings. I don’t like pretending to care about someone else’s project. Erin: That’s it. That feels wrong to you, I feel like. Is that right? Yeah. Brett: Yeah. Erin: Yeah. I’m happy to do that for Brett: I’m not an employee. I can’t. Erin: Yeah. I don’t identify as an employee. I heard someone say, I think around. Last year’s pride as a bit, um, that we need to add con a content creator, stripe and color to the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A flag. And when I said that, I repeated that as I just said to you, to someone, and they didn’t laugh. I was like, oh no. Why have I surrounded myself with your life? Go away from me anyways. The Art of Dating and Bits Erin: I was on a date the other day. Brett: Yeah. Erin: And, um, Brett: Must be nice.[00:56:00] Erin: date privilege. Yeah. Being single. Mm. Love it. And, um, you know, I’m very sensitive to people who don’t do bits. Uh, I have an allergy to like selfer people. And, and this woman who was in like so attractive, like so attractive did a power move where she was like, we, we met at a coffee shop. And she was like, whatcha gonna get? I was like, oh, I’m gonna get a nice espresso. And when she went to order and I thought we were gonna do Dutch or whatever, she ordered her thing and then she was like, and a nice espresso as well. And I was like, oh, hot, cute. You harvested me for information and then used that as a power thing anyways, so that it was going well. But then we started talking and I was like, oh, she’s not really picking, I’m giving her, it’s like some like B [00:57:00] plus material and she’s not really responding at all. And we were talking about, I find it helpful on dates to acknowledge that we’re on a date and that we met on a dating app. So one way that I did this on this date was to say like, I saw someone with this word in their profile. What do you think it means? And the word was, or the phrase was, the desire was that they like to be corded, which I. I, I didn’t, I got into a sort of like debate with my other friend about what that means, what that means when someone puts that and they’re pan like, is that gendered, is that like a power thing? Is that like a noble abl thing? Like what is that? So we started talking about what it means to be courted on a date and she said something like, you know, a part of it too is probably that they like to be whined and dined. And I was like, in 69. She gave me nothing. I was like, [00:58:00] oh no, I forget why I brought this up. Um, Brett: I forgot too. Um, I like, I like that you associated corded with noble abl just. Erin: uh, Brett: As like a matter of course there, um, maybe they wanna gesture. Erin: oh, I think I brought it up because. I said that content creators deserve Brett: Mm, right, right, right. The bits we’re talking about Erin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts Brett: All right. Well, you gotta get going. I know we have like eight minutes. Erin: ooh, Brett: So we should give you some time to prep for whatever it is you’re cutting us short for. I’m not kidding. I’m just kidding. It’s like fif. We’re 58 minutes in. This is good. This was a good episode. Thank you so much for coming. Erin: I just did it ’cause I wanted to catch up with you to be Brett: Yeah. I feel like this was good. This was good for that. Erin: Yeah. Brett: Yeah. Erin: Thanks Brett. Brett: Well, good luck with everything. [00:59:00] been fun. Erin: Say the line. Brett: Get some sleep. Erin: Get some sleep. Brett, I.

Join Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra as they navigate the freezing Minnesotan cold without running water, delve into the intersection of tech and political turmoil, and explore the latest in AI agents and multi-agent workflows. Dive into a whirlwind of emotions, tech tips, and political ranting, all while contemplating the ethics of open source funding and AI coding. From brutal weather updates to philosophical debates on modern fascism, this episode pulls no punches. Sponsor Copilot Money can help you take control of your finances. Get a fresh start with your money for 2026 with 2 months free when you visit try.copilot.money/overtired. Show Links Crimethinc: Being “Peaceful” and “Law-Abiding” Will Not Stop Authoritarianism Gas Town Apex OpenCode Backdrop Cindori Sensei Moltbot Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Host Updates 00:21 Brett’s Water Crisis 02:27 Political Climate and Media Suppression 06:32 Police Violence and Public Response 18:31 Social Media and Surveillance 22:15 Sponsor Break: Copilot Money 26:20 Tech Talk: Gas Town and AI Agents 31:58 Crypto Controversies 37:09 Ethics in Journalism and Personal Dilemmas 39:45 The Future of Open Source and Cryptocurrency 45:03 Apex 1.0? 48:25 Challenges and Innovations in Markdown Processing 01:02:16 AI in Coding and Personal Assistants 01:06:36 GrAPPtitude 01:14:40 Conclusion and Upcoming Plans Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript AI Agents and Political Chaos Introduction and Host Updates Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome back. You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. Joined as always by Brett Terpstra. Jeff Severns. Guntzel could not be with us this week, um, but uh, but Brett and I are here. So Brett, how are you? How’s the cold? Brett: The cold. Brett’s Water Crisis Brett: So I’m going on day four without running water. Um, I drove to my parents last night to shower and we’re, we’re driving loads of dishes to friends’ house to wash them. We have big buckets of melted snow in our bathtub that we use to flush the Toyland. Um, and we have like big jugs with a spout on them for drinking water. So we’re surviving, but it is highly inconvenient. Um, and we don’t know yet if it’s a frozen pipe. Or if we have [00:01:00] a bad pump on our, well, uh, hopefully we’ll find that out today. But no guarantees because all the plumbers are very busy right now with negative 30 degree weather. They tend to get a lot of calls, lots of stuff happens. Um, so yeah, but I’m, I’m staying warm. I got a fireplace, I got my heat’s working Christina: I mean, that’s the important thing. Brett: and that went out, that went out twice, in, twice already. This winter, our heat has gone out, um, which I’m thankful. We, we finally, we added glycol to our, so our heat pumps water through, like, it’s not radiators, it’s like baseboard heat, but it, it uses water and. Um, and though we were getting like frozen spots, not burst pipes, just enough that the water wouldn’t go through fast enough to heat anything. So we added glycol to that [00:02:00] system to bring the freeze point down to like zero degrees. So it’s not perfect, but we also hardwired the pump so that it always circulates water, um, even when the heat’s not running. So hopefully it’ll never freeze again. That’s the goal. Um, and if we replace the well pump, that should be good for another 20 years. So hopefully after this things will be smoother. Political Climate and Media Suppression Brett: Um, yeah, but that, that’s all in addition to, you know, my state being occupied by federal agents and even in my small town, we’ve got people being like, abducted. Things are escalating quickly at this point, and a lot of it doesn’t get talked about on mainstream media. Um, but yeah, things, I don’t know, man. I think we’re making progress because, um, apparently Binos [00:03:00] getting retired Christina: I was going to say, I, I, I, I heard, I heard that, and I don’t know if that’s good or if that’s bad. Um, I can’t, I can’t tell. Brett: it’s, it’s like, it’s like if Trump died, we wouldn’t know if that was good or bad because JD Vance as president, like maybe things get way worse. Who knows? Uh, none of these, none of these actual figureheads are the solution. Removing them isn’t the solution to removing the kinda maga philosophy behind it. But yeah, and that’s also Jeff is, you know, highly involved and I, I won’t, I won’t talk about that for him. I hope we can get him monsoon to talk about that. Christina: No, me, me, me too. Because I’ve, I’ve been thinking about, about him and about you and about your whole area, your communities, you know, from several thousand miles away. Like all, all we, all we see is either what people post online, which of course now is being suppressed. [00:04:00] Uh, thanks a lot. You know, like, like the, oh, TikTok was gonna be so terrible. Chi the, the Chinese are gonna take over our, uh, our algorithms. Right? No, Larry Ellison is, is actually going to completely, you know, fuck up the algorithms, um, and, and suppress anything. I, yeah. Yeah. They’re, they’re Brett: is TikTok? Well, ’cause Victor was telling me that, they were seeing videos. Uh, you would see one frame of the video and then it would black out. And it all seemed to be videos that were negative towards the administration and we weren’t sure. Is this a glitch? Is this coincidence? Christina: well, they claim it’s a glitch, but I don’t believe it. Brett: Yeah, it seems, it seems Christina: I, I mean, I mean, I mean, the thing is like, maybe it is, maybe it is a glitch and we’re overreacting. I don’t know. Um, all I know is that they’ve given us absolutely zero reason to trust them, and so I don’t, and so, um, uh, apparently the, the state of California, this is, [00:05:00] so we are recording this on Tuesday morning. Apparently the state of California has said that they are going to look into whether things are being, you know, suppressed or not, and if that’s violating California law, um, because now that, that, that TikTok is, is controlled by an American entity, um, even if it is, you know, owned by like a, you know, uh, evil, uh, billionaire, you know, uh, crony sto fuck you, Larry Ellison. Um, uh, I guess that means we won’t be getting an Oracle sponsorship. Sorry. Um, uh, Brett: take it anyway. Christina: I, I know you wouldn’t, I know you wouldn’t. That’s why I felt safe saying that. Um, but, uh, but even if, if, if that were the case, like I, you know, but apparently like now that it is like a, you know, kind of, you know, state based like US thing, like California could step in and potentially make things difficult for them. I mean, I think that’s probably a lot of bluster on Newsom’s part. I don’t think that he could really, honestly achieve any sort of change if they are doing things to the algorithm. Brett: Yeah. Uh, [00:06:00] if, if laws even matter anymore, it would be something that got tied up in court for a long time Christina: Right. Which effectively wouldn’t matter. Right. And, and then that opens up a lot of other interesting, um, things about like, okay, well, you know, should we, like what, what is the role? Like even for algorithmically determined things of the government to even step in or whatever, right now, obviously does, I think, become like more of a speech issue if it’s government speech that’s being suppressed, but regardless, it, it is just, it’s bad. So I’ve been, I’ve been thinking about you, I’ve been thinking about Jeff. Police Violence and Public Response Christina: Um, you know, we all saw what happened over the weekend and, and, you know, people be, people are being murdered in the streets and I mean that, that, that’s what’s happening. And, Brett: white people no less, Christina: Right. Well, I mean, that’s the thing, right? Like, is that like, but, but, but they keep moving the bar. They, they keep moving the goalpost, right? So first it’s a white woman and, oh, she, she was, she was running over. The, the officer [00:07:00] or the ice guy, and it’s like, no, she wasn’t, but, but, but that, that’s immediately where they go and, and she’s, you know, radical whatever and, and, and a terrorist and this and that. Okay. Then you have a literal veterans affair nurse, right? Like somebody who literally, like, you know, has, has worked with, with, with combat veterans and has done those things. Who, um, is stepping in to help someone who’s being pepper sprayed, you know, is, is just observing. And because he happens to have, um, a, a, a, a gun on him legally, which he’s allowed to do, um, they immediately used that as cover to execute him. But if he hadn’t had the gun, they would’ve, they would’ve come up with something else. Oh, we thought he had a gun, and they, you know what I mean? So like, they, they got lucky with that one because they removed the method, the, the, the weapon and then shot him 10 times. You know, they literally executed him in the street. But if he hadn’t had a gun, they still would’ve executed. Brett: Yeah, no, for sure. Um, it’s really frustrating that [00:08:00] they took the gun away. So he was disarmed and, and immobilized and then they shot him. Um, like so that’s just a straight up execution. And then to bring, like, to say that it, he, because he had a gun, he was dangerous, is such a, an affront to America has spent so long fighting against gun control and saying that we had the right to carry fucking assault rifles in the Christina: Kyle Rittenhouse. Kyle Rittenhouse was literally acquitted. Right? Brett: Yeah. And he killed people. Christina: and, and he killed people. He was literally walking around little fucking stogey, you know, little blubbering little bitch, like, you know, crying, you know, he’s like carrying around like Rambo a gun and literally snipe shooting people. That’s okay. Brett: They defended Christina: if you have a. They defended him. Of course they did. Right? Of course they did. Oh, well he has the right to carry and this and that, and Oh, you should be able to be armed in [00:09:00] these places. Oh, no, but, but if you’re, um, somebody that we don’t like Brett: Yeah, Christina: and you have a concealed carry permit, and I don’t even know if he was really concealed. Right. Because I think that if you have it on your holster, I don’t even think that counts as concealed to Brett: was supposedly in Christina: I, I, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t. Brett: like it Christina: Which I don’t think counts as concealed. I think. Brett: No. Christina: Right, right. So, so, so, so, so that, that, that wouldn’t be concealed. Be because you have someone in, in that situation, then all of a sudden, oh, no. Now, now the, the key, the goalpost, okay, well, it’s fine if it’s, you know, uh, police we don’t like, or, or other people. And, and, and if you’re going after protesters, then you can shoot and kill whoever you want, um, because you’ve perceived a threat and you can take actions into your, to your own hands. Um, but now if you are even a white person, um, even, you know, someone who’s, who’s worked in Veterans Affairs, whatever, if, if you have, uh, even if you’re like a, a, a, you know, a, a gun owner and, and have permits, um, now [00:10:00] if we don’t like you and you are anywhere in the vicinity of anybody associated with law enforcement, now they have the right to shoot you dead. Like that’s, that’s, that’s the argument, which is insanity. Brett: so I’m, I’m just gonna point out that as the third right came to power, they disarmed the Jews and they disarmed the anarchists and the socialists and they armed the rest of the population and it became, um, gun control for people they didn’t like. Um, and this is, it’s just straight up the same playbook. There’s no, there’s no differentiation anymore. Christina: No, it, it, it actively makes me angry that, um, I, I could be, because, ’cause what can we do? And, and what they’re counting on is the fact that we’re all tired and we’re all kind of, you know, like just, [00:11:00] you know, from, from what happened, you know, six years ago and, and, and what happened, you know, five years ago. Um, and, and, and various things. I think a lot of people are, are just. It kind of like Brett: Sure. Christina: done with, with, with being able to, to, to, right. But now the actual fascism is here, right? Like, like we, we, we saw a, a, you know, a whiff of this on, on, on January 6th, but now it’s actual fascism and they control every branch of government. Brett: Yeah. Christina: And, um, and, and, and I, and I don’t know what we’re supposed to do, right? Like, I mean it, because I mean, you know, uh, Philadelphia is, is, is begging for, for, for them to come. And I think that would be an interesting kind of standoff. Seattle is this, this is what a friend of mine said was like, you know, you know Philadelphia, Filch Philadelphia is begging them to come. Seattle is like scared. Um, that, that they’re going to come, um, because honestly, like we’re a bunch of little bitch babies and, um, [00:12:00] people think they’re like, oh, you know the WTO. I’m like, yeah, that was, that was 27 years ago. Um, uh, I, I don’t think that Seattle has the juice to hold that sort of line again. Um, but I also don’t wanna find out, right? Like, but, but, but this is, this is the attack thing. It’s like, okay, why are they in Minnesota? Right? They’re what, like 130,000, um, Brett: exactly Christina: um, immigrants in, in Minnesota. There are, there are however many million in Texas, however many million in Florida. We know exactly why, right? This isn’t about. Anything more than Brett: in any way. Christina: and opt. Right, right. It has nothing, it has nothing to do with, with, with immigration anyway. I mean, even, even the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal who a, you know, ran an op-ed basically saying get out of Minnesota. They also, they also had like a, you know, a news story, which was not from the opinion board, which like broke down the, the, the footage showing, you know, that like the, the video footage doesn’t match the administration’s claims, but they also ran a story. Um, that [00:13:00] basically did the math, I guess, on like the number of, of criminals, um, or people with criminal records who have been deported. And at this point, like in, you know, and, and when things started out, like, I guess when the raid started out, the, the majority of the people that they were kind of going after were people who had criminal records. Now, whether they were really violent, the worst, the worst, I mean that’s, I’m, I’m not gonna get into that, but you could at least say like, they, they could at least say, oh, well these were people who had criminal records, whatever. Now some, some huge percentage, I think it’s close to 80% don’t have anything. And many of the people that do the, the criminal like thing that they would hold would be, you know, some sort of visa violation. Right. So it’s, it’s, it’s Brett: they deported a five-year-old kid after using him as bait to try to get the rest of his family. Christina: as bait. Brett: Yeah. And like it’s, it’s pretty deplorable. But I will say I am proud of Minnesota. Um, they have not backed [00:14:00] down. They have stood up in the face of increasing increasingly escalated attacks, and they have shown up in force thousands of people out in the streets. Like Conti, like last night they had a, um, well, yeah, I mean, it’s been ongoing, but, uh, what’s his name? Preddy Alex. Um, at the place where he was shot, they had a, like continuing kind of memorial protest, I guess, and there’s footage of like a thousand, a thousand mins surrounding about 50, um, ICE agents and. Like basically corralling them to the point where they were all backed into a corner and weren’t moving. And I don’t know what happened after that. Um, but thus far it hasn’t been violent on the part of protesters. It’s been very violent on the part of ice. I [00:15:00] personally, I don’t know where I stand on, like, I feel like the Democrats are urging pacifism because it affects their hold on power. And I don’t necessarily think that peace when they’re murdering us in the street. I don’t know if peace is the right response, but I don’t know. I’m not openly declaring that I support violence at this point, but. At the same time, do I not? I’m not sure. Like I keep going back and forth on is it time for a war or do we try to vote our way out of this? Christina: I mean, well, and the scary thing about voting our way out of this is will we even be able to have free elections, right? Be because they’re using any sort of anything, even the most benign sort of legal [00:16:00] protest, even if violence isn’t involved in all of a sudden, talks of the Insurrection Act come Brett: yeah. And Trump, Trump offered to pull out of Minnesota if Minnesota will turn over its voter database to the federal government. Like that’s just blatant, like that’s obviously the end goal is suppression. Christina: Right, right. And, and so to your point, I don’t know. Right. And I’m, I’m never somebody who would wanna advocate outwardly for violence, but I, I, I, I, I don’t know. I mean, they’re killing citizens in the streets. They’re assassinating people in cold blood. They’re executing people, right. That’s what they’re doing. They’re literally executing people in the streets and then covering it up in real time. Brett: if the argument is, if we are violent, it will cause them to kill us. They’re already killing Christina: already doing it. Right. So at, at this point, I mean, like, you know, I mean, like, w to your point, wars have been started for, for, for less, or for the exact same things. Brett: [00:17:00] Yeah. Christina: So, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, I know that that’s a depressing way to probably do mental health corner and whatnot, but this is what’s happening in our world right now and in and in your community, and it’s, it’s terrifying. Brett: I’m going to link in the show notes an article from Crime Think that was written by, uh, people in Germany who have studied, um, both historical fascism and the current rise of the A FD, which will soon be the most powerful party in Germany, um, which is straight up a Nazi party. Um, and it, they offered, like their hope right now lies in America stopping fascism. Christina: Yeah. Brett: Like if we can, if we can stop fascism, then they believe the rest of Europe can stop fascism. Um, but like they, it, it’s a good article. It kind of, it kind of broaches the same questions I do about like, is it [00:18:00] time for violence? And they offer, like, we don’t, we’re not advocating for a civil war, but like Civil wars might. If you, if you, if you broach them as revolutions, it’s kind of, they’re kind of the same thing in cases like this. So anyway, I’ll, I’ll link that for anyone who wants to read kinda what’s going on in my head. I’m making a note to dig that up. I, uh, I love Crime Fake Oh and Blue Sky. Social Media and Surveillance Brett: Um, so I have not, up until very recently been an avid Blue Sky user. Um, I think I have like, I think I have maybe like 200 followers there and I follow like 50 people. But I’ve been expanding that and I am getting a ton of my news from Blue Sky and like to get stories from people on the ground, like news as it happens, unfiltered and Blue Sky has been [00:19:00] really good for that. Um, I, it’s. There’s not like an algorithm. I just get my stuff and like Macedon, I have a much larger following and I follow a lot more people, but it’s very tech, Christina: It’s very tech and, Brett: there for. Christina: well, and, and MAs on, um, understandably too is also European, um, in a lot of regards. And so it’s just, it’s not. Gonna have the same amount of, of people who are gonna be able to, at least for instances like this, like be on the ground and doing real-time stuff. It’s not, it doesn’t have like the more normy stuff. So, no, that makes sense. Um, no, that’s great. I think, yeah, blue Sky’s been been really good for, for these sorts of real-time events because again, they don’t have an algorithm. Like you can have one, like for a personalized kind of like for you feed or whatever, but in terms of what you see, you know, you see it naturally. You’re not seeing it being adjusted by anything, which can be good and bad. I, I think is good because nothing’s suppressing things and you see things in real time. It can be bad because sometimes you miss things, but I think on the whole, it’s better. [00:20:00] The only thing I will say, just to anyone listening and, and just to spread onto, you know, people in your communities too, from what I’ve observed from others, like, it does seem like the, the government and other sorts of, you know, uh, uh, the, you know, bodies like that are finally starting to pay more attention to blue sky in terms of monitoring things. And so that’s not to say don’t. You know, use it at all. But the same way, you don’t make threats on Twitter if you don’t want the Feds to show up at your house. Don’t make threats on Blue Sky, because it’s not just a little microcosm where, you know, no one will see it. People are, it, it’s still small, but it’s, it’s getting bigger to the point that like when people look at like where some of the, the, the fire hose, you know, things observable things are there, there seem to be more and more of them located in the Washington DC area, which could just be because data centers are there, who knows? But I’ve also just seen anecdotally, like people who have had, like other instances, it’s like, don’t, don’t think [00:21:00] that like, oh, okay, well, you know, no one’s monitoring this. Um, of course people are so just don’t be dumb, don’t, don’t say things that could potentially get you in trouble. Um. Brett: a political candidate in Florida. Um, had the cops show up at her house and read her one of her Facebook posts. I mean, this was local. This was local cops, but still, yeah, you Christina: right. Well, yeah, that’s the thing, right? No, totally. And, and my, my only point with that is we’ve known that they do that for Facebook and for, for, you know, Twitter and, and, uh, you know, Instagram and things like that, but they, but Blue Sky, like, I don’t know if it’s on background checks yet, but it, uh, like for, uh, for jobs and things like that, I, I, I don’t know if that’s happening, but it definitely is at that point where, um, I know that people are starting to monitor those things. So just, you know, uh, not even saying for you per se, but just for anybody out there, like, it’s awesome and I’m so glad that like, that’s where people can get information out, but don’t be like [00:22:00] lulled into this false sense of security. Like, oh, well they’re not gonna monitor this. They’re not Brett: Nobody’s watching me here. Christina: It is like, no, they are, they are. Um, so especially as it becomes, you know, more prominent. So I’m, I’m glad that that’s. That’s an option there too. Um, okay. Sponsor Break: Copilot Money Christina: This is like the worst possible segue ever, but should we go ahead and segue to our, our, our sponsor break? Brett: Let’s do it. Let’s, let’s talk about capitalism. Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by copilot money. Copilot money is not just another finance app. It’s your personal finance partner designed to help you feel clear, calm, and in control of your money. Whether it’s tracking your spending, saving for specific goals, or simply getting the handle on your investments. Copilot money has you covered as we enter the new year. Clarity and control over our finances has never been more important with the recent shutdown of Mint and rising financial stress, for many consumers are looking for a modern, trustworthy tool to help navigate their financial journeys. That’s where copilot money comes in. 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Download copilot money on your devices or visit. Try copilot money slash [00:24:00] overti today to claim you’re two months free and embrace a more organized, stress-free approach to your finances. Try copilot.money/ Overtired. Brett: Awesome that I appreciate this segue. ’cause we, we, we could, we could be talking about other things. Um, like it’s, it feels so weird, like when I go on social media and I just want to post that like my water’s out. It feels out of place right now because there’s everything that’s going on feels so much more important than, Christina: Right. Brett: than anything else. Um, but there’s still a place for living our lives, um, Christina: there are a absolutely. I mean, and, and, and in a certain extent, like not to, I mean, maybe this is a little bit of a cope, but it’s like, if all we do is focus on the things that we can’t control at the expense of everything else, it’s like then they win. You know? Like, which, which isn’t, which, which isn’t even to [00:25:00] say, like, don’t talk about what’s happening. Don’t try to help, don’t try to speak out and, and, um, and do what we can do, but also. Like as individuals, there’s very little we can control about things. And being completely, you know, subsumed by that is, is not necessarily good either. Um, so yeah, there’s, there, there are other things going on and it’s important for us to get out of our heads. It’s important, especially for you, you know, being in the region, I think to be able to, to focus on other things and, and hopefully your water will be back soon. ’cause that sucks like that. I’ve been, I’ve been worried about you. I’m glad that you have heat. I’m glad you have internet. I’m glad you have power, but you know, the pipes being frozen and all that stuff is like, not Brett: it, the, the internet has also been down for up to six hours at a time. I don’t know why. There’s like an amplifier down on our street. Um, and that has sucked because I, out here, I live in a, I’m not gonna call it rural. Uh, we’re like five minutes from town, [00:26:00] but, um, we, we don’t. We have shitty internet. Like I pay for a gigabit and I get 500 megabits and it’s, and it’s up and down all the time and I hate it. But anyway. Tech Talk: Gas Town and AI Agents Brett: Let’s talk about, uh, let’s talk about Gas Town. What can you tell me about Gastown? Christina: Okay. So we’ve talked a lot about like AI agents and, um, kind of like, uh, coding, um, loops and, and things like that. And so Gastown, uh, which is available, um, at, I, it is not Gas Town. Let me find the URL, um, one second. It’s, it’s at a gas town. No, it’s not. Lemme find it. Um. Right. So this is a thing that, that Steve Yy, uh, has created, and [00:27:00] it is a multi-agent workspace manager. And so the idea is basically that you can be running like a lot of instances of, um, of, of Claude Code or, um, I guess you could use Codex. You could use, uh, uh, uh, co-pilot, um, SDK or CLI agent and whatnot. Um, and basically what it’s designed to do is to basically let you coordinate like multiple coding agents at one time so they can all be working on different tasks, but then instead of having, um, like the context get lost when agents restart, it creates like a, a persistent, um, like. Work state, which it uses with, with git on the backend, which is supposed to basically enable more multi-agent workflows. So, um, basically the idea would be like, you get, have multiple agents working at once, kind of talking to one another, handing things off, you know, each doing their own task and then coordinating the work with what the other ones are doing. But then you have like a persistent, um, uh, I guess kind of like, you know, layer in the backend so that if an agent has to restart or whatever, it’s not gonna lose the, [00:28:00] the context, um, that that’s happening. And you don’t have to manually, um, worry about things like, okay, you know, I’ve lost certain things in memory and, and I’ve, you know, don’t know how I’m, I’m managing all these things together. Um, there, there’s another project, uh, called Ralph, which is kind of based on this, this concept of like, what of Ralph Wickham was, you know, coding or, or was doing kind of a loop. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s kind of a similar idea. Um, there’s also. Brett: my nose wouldn’t bleed so much if I just kept my finger out of there. Christina: Exactly, exactly. My cat’s breath smells like cat food. Um, and um, and so. Like there are ideas of like Ralph Loops and Gastown. And so these are a couple of like projects, um, that have really started to, uh, take over. So like, uh, Ralph is more of an autonomous AI agent loop that basically like it runs like over and over and over again until, uh, a task is done. Um, and, and a lot of people use, use Gastown and, [00:29:00] and, and Ralph together. Um, but yeah, no Ga gastown is is pretty cool. Um, we’ll we’re gonna talk about it more ’cause it’s my pick of the week. We’ll talk about Molt bot previously known as Claude Bot, which is, uses some, some similar ideas. But it’s really been interesting to see like how, like the, the multi-agent workflow, and by multi-agent, I mean like, people are running like 20 or 30 of them, you know, at a time. So it’s more than that, um, is really starting to become a thing that people can, uh, can do. Um, Brett: gets expensive though. Christina: I was, I was just about to say that’s the one thing, right? Most people who are using things like Gastown. Are using them with the Claude, um, code Max plans, which is $200 a month. And those plans do give you more value than like, what the, what it would be if you spent $200 in API credits, uh, but $200 a month. Like that’s not an expensive, that’s, you know, that, that’s, that, that, like, you know what I mean? Like, like that, that, that, that, that, that’s a lot of money to spend on these sorts of things. Um, but people [00:30:00] are getting good results out of it. It’s pretty cool. Um. There have been some open models, which of course, most people don’t have equipment that would be fast enough for them to, to run, uh, to be able to kind of do what they would want, um, reliably. But the, the AgTech stuff coming to some of the open models is better. And so if these things can continue, of course now we’re in a ram crisis and storage crisis and everything else, so who knows when the hardware will get good enough again, and we can, when we as consumers can even reasonably get things ourselves. But, but in, in theory, you know, if, if these sorts of things continue, I could see like a, a world where like, you know, some of the WAN models and some of the other things, uh, potentially, um, or Quinn models rather, um, could, uh. Be things that you could conceivably, like be running on your own equipment to run these sorts of nonstop ag agentic loops. But yeah, right now, like it’s really freaking cool and I’ve played around with it because I’m fortunate enough to have access to a lot of tokens. [00:31:00] Um, but yeah, I can get expensive real, real fast. Uh, but, but it’s still, it’s still pretty awesome. Brett: I do appreciate that. So, guest Town, the name is a reference to Mad Max and in the kind of, uh, vernacular that they built for things like background agents and I, uh, there’s a whole bunch, there are different levels of, of the interface that they kind of extrapolated on the gas town kind of metaphor for. Uh, I, it was, it, it, there were some interesting naming conventions and then they totally went in other directions with some of the names. It, they didn’t keep the theme very well, but, but still, uh, I appreciate Ralph Wig and Mad Max. That’s. It’s at the very least, it’s interesting. Christina: No, it definitely is. It definitely is. Crypto Controversies Christina: I will say that there’s been like a little bit [00:32:00] of a kerfuffle, uh, involved in both of those, uh, developers because, um, they’re both now promoting shit coins and, uh, and so that’s sort of an interesting thing. Um, basically there’s like this, this, this crypto company called bags that I guess apparently like if people want to, they will create crypto coins for popular open source projects, and then they will designate someone to, I guess get the, the gas fees, um, in, um, uh, a Solana parlance, uh, no pun intended, with the gas town, um, where basically like that’s, you know, like the, the, the fees that you spend to have the transaction work off of the blockchain, right? Like, especially if there’s. A lot of times that it would take, like, you pay a certain percentage of something and like those fees could be designated to an individual. And, um, in this case, like both of these guys were reached out to when basically they were like, Hey, this coin exists. You’ve got all this money just kind of sitting in a crypto wallet waiting for you. [00:33:00] Take the money, get, get the, the transaction fees, so to speak. And, uh, I mean, I think that, that, that’s, if you wanna take that money right, it’s, it’s there for you. I’m not gonna certainly judge anyone for that. What I will judge you for is if you then promote your shit coin to your community and basically kind of encourage everyone. To kind of buy into it. Maybe you put in the caveat, oh, this isn’t financial advice. Oh, this is all just for whatever. But, but you’re trying to do that and then you go one step beyond, which I think is actually pretty dumb, which is to be like, okay, well, ’cause like, here’s the thing, I’m not gonna judge anyone. If someone who’s like, Hey, here’s a wallet that we’re gonna give you, and it has real cash in it, and you can do whatever you want with it, and these are the transaction fees, so to speak, like, you know, the gas fees, whatever, you know what you do. You, even if you wanna let your audience know that you’ve done that, and maybe you’re promoting that, maybe some people will buy into it, like, people are adults. Fine. Where, where I do like side eye a little bit is if you are, then for whatever reason [00:34:00] going to be like, oh, I’m gonna take my fees and I’m gonna reinvest it in the coin. Like, okay, you are literally sitting on top of the pyramid, like you could not be in a better position and now you’re, but right. And now you’re literally like paying into the pyramid scheme. It’s like, this is not going to work well for you. These are rug bulls. Um, and so like the, the, the, the gas town coin like dropped like massively. The Ralph coin like dropped massively, like after the, the, the Ralph creator, I think he took out like 300 K or something and people, or, you know, sold like 300 K worth of coins. And people were like, oh, he’s pulling a rug pull. And I’m like, well, A, what did you expect? But B it’s like, this is why don’t, like, if someone’s gonna give you free money from something that’s, you know, kind of scammy, like, I’m not saying don’t take the money. I am saying maybe be smart enough to not to reinvest it into the scam. Brett: Yeah. Christina: Like, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s the only thing I will mention on that. ’cause I don’t think that that takes [00:35:00] anything away from either of those projects or it says that you shouldn’t use or play around with it either of those ideas at all. But that is just a thing that’s happened in the last couple of weeks too, where it’s like, oh, and now there’s like crypto, you know, the crypto people are trying to get kind of involved with these projects and, um, I, I think that that’s, uh, okay. You know, um, like I said, I’m, I’m not gonna judge anybody for taking free money that, that somebody is gonna offer them. I will judge you if you’re gonna try to then, you know, try to like, promote that to your audience and try to be like, oh, this is a great way where we, where you can help me and we can all get rich. It’s like, no, there are, if you really wanna support creators, like there are things like GitHub sponsors and there are like other methods that you can, you can do that, that don’t involve making financial risks on shit coins. Brett: I wish anything I made could be popular enough that I could do something that’s stupid. Yeah. Like [00:36:00] I, I, I, I’m not gonna pull a rug pull on anyone, but the chances that I’ll ever make $300,000 on anything I’m working on, it’s pretty slim. Christina: Yeah, but at the same time, like if you, if you did, if you were in that position, like, I don’t know, I mean, I guess that’d be a thing that you would have to kind of figure out, um, yourself would be like, okay, I have access to this amount of money. Am I going to try to, you know, go all in and, and maybe go full grift to get even more? Some, something tells me that like your own personal ethics would probably preclude you from that. Brett: I, um, I have spent, what, um, how old am I? 47. I, I’ve been, since I started blogging in like 1999, 2000, um, I have always adhered to a very strict code and like turning down sponsors. I didn’t agree with [00:37:00] not doing anything that would be shady. Not taking, not, not taking money from anyone I was writing about. Ethics in Journalism and Personal Dilemmas Brett: Like, it’s been, it’s a pain in the ass to try to be truly ethical, but I feel like I’ve done it for 30 some years and, and I don’t know, I wouldn’t change it. I’m not rich. I’ll never be rich. But yeah, I think ethics are important, especially if you’re in any kind of journalism. Christina: Yeah, if you’re in any sort of journalism. I think so, and I think like how people wanna define those things, I think it’s up to them. And, and like I said, like I’m not gonna even necessarily like, like judge people like for, because I, I don’t know personally like what my situation would be like. Like if somebody was like, Christina, here’s a wallet that has the equivalent of $300,000 in it and it’s just sitting here and we’re not even asking you to do anything with this. I would probably take the money. I’m not gonna lie, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t [00:38:00] know if I would promote it or anything and I maybe I would feel compelled to disclose, Hey, Brett: That is Christina: wallet belongs to me. Brett: money though. Christina: I, I, right. I, I, I might, I might be, I might feel compelled to com to, to disclose, Hey, someone created this coin in this thing. They created the foam grow coin and they are giving me, you know, the, the, the gas fees and I have accepted Brett: could be, I’d feel like you could do it if you were transparent enough about it. Christina: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think where I draw the line is when you then go from like, because again, it’s fine if you wanna take it. It’s then when you are a. Reinvesting the free money into the coin, which I think is just idiotic. Like, I think that’s just actually dumb. Um, like I just, I just do like, that just seems like you are literally, like I said, you’re at the top of the pyramid and you’re literally like volunteering to get into the bottom again. Um, and, or, or b like if you do that and then you try to rationalize in some way, oh, well, you know, I think [00:39:00] that this could be a great thing for everybody to, you know, I get rich, you know, you could get rich, we could all get money out of this because this is the future of, you know, creator economy or whatever. It’s like, no, it’s not. This is gambling. Um, and, and, and, and you could make the argument to me, and I’d probably be persuaded to be like, this isn’t that different from poly market or any of the other sorts of things. But you know what? I don’t do those things either. And I wouldn’t promote those things to any audience that I had either. Um, but if somebody wanted to give me free money. I probably wouldn’t turn it down. I’m not gonna pretend that my ethics are, are that strong. Uh, I just don’t know if I would, if I would, uh, go on the other end and be like, okay, to the Moom, everyone let, let’s all go in on the crypto stuff. It’s like, okay, The Future of Open Source and Cryptocurrency Brett: So is this the future of open source is, ’cause I mean like open source has survived for decades as like a concept and it’s never been terribly profitable. But a [00:40:00] lot of large companies have invested in open source, and I guess at this point, like most of the big open source projects are either run by a corporation or by a foundation. Um, that are independently financed, but for a project like Gastown, like is it the future? Is this, is this something people are gonna start doing to like, kind of make open source profitable? Christina: I mean, maybe, I don’t know. I think the problem though is that it’s not necessarily predictable, right? And, and not to say that like normal donations or, or support methods are predictable, but at least that could be a thing where you’re like, they’re not, but, but, but it’s not volatile to the extent where you’re like, okay, I’m basing, you know, like my income based on how well this shit coin that someone else controls the supply of someone else, you know, uh, uh, created someone else, you know, burned, so to speak, somebody else’s is going to be, uh, [00:41:00] controlling and, and has other things and could be responsible for, you know, big seismic like market movements like that I think is very different, um, than anything else. And so, I don’t know. I mean, I, I think that they, what I do expect that we’ll see more of is more and more popular projects, things that go viral, especially around ai. Probably being approached or people like proactively creating coins around those things. And there have been some, um, developers who’ve already, you know, stood up oddly and been like, if you see anybody trying to create a coin around this, it is not associated with me. I won’t be associated with any of it. I won’t do it. Right. Uh, and I think that becomes a problem where you’re like, okay, if these things do become popular, then that becomes like another risk if you don’t wanna be involved in it. If you’re involved with a, with a popular project, right? Like the, like the, like the creator of MPM Isaac, like, I think there’s like an MPM coin now, and that, that he’s, you know, like involved in and it’s like, you know, again, he didn’t create it, but he is happy to promote it. He’s happy to take the money. I’m like, look, I’m happy for [00:42:00] Isaac to get money from NPMI am at the same time, you know, bun, which is basically like, you know, the, you know, replacement for, for Node and NPM in a lot of ways, they sold to Anthropic for. I guarantee you a fuck load more money than whatever Isaac is gonna make off of some MPM shitcoin. So, so like, it, it’s all a lottery and it’s not sustainable. But I also feel like for a lot of open source projects, and this isn’t like me saying that the people shouldn’t get paid for the work, quite the contrary. But I think if you go into it with the expectation of I’m going to be able to make a sustainable living off of something, like when you start a project, I think that that is not necessarily going to set you up for, I think that those expectations are misaligned with what reality might be, which again, isn’t to say that you shouldn’t get paid for your work, it’s just that the reason that we give back and the reason we contribute open source is to try to be part of like the, the greater good and to make things more available to everyone. Not to be [00:43:00] like, oh, I can, you know, quit my job. Like, that would be wonderful. I, I wish that more and more people could do that. And I give to a lot of, um, open source projects on, on a monthly basis or on an annual basis. Um, Brett: I, I give basically all the money that’s given to me for my open source projects I distribute among other open source projects. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a wash for me, but yeah, I am, I, I pay, you know, five, 10 bucks a month to 20 different projects and yeah. Christina: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s important, but, but I, I don’t know. I, I, I hope that it’s not the future. I’m not mad, I think like if that’s a way where people can make, you know, a, a, an income. But I do, I guess worry the sense that like, if, if, if, I don’t want that to be, the reason why somebody would start an open source project is because they’re like, oh, I, I can get rich on a crypto thing. Right? Like, ’cause that that’s the exact wrong Brett: that’s not open source. That’s not the open source philosophy. Christina: no, [00:44:00] it’s not. And, and so, I mean, but I think, I think if it already exists, I mean, I don’t know. I, I also feel like no one should feel obligated. This should go without saying that. If you see a project that you like that is involved in one of those coins. Do you have a zero obligation to be, uh, supportive of that in any way? And in fact, it is probably in your financial best interest to not be involved. Um, it, it is your life, your money, your, you do whatever you want, gamble, however you want. But, uh, I, I, I, I do, I guess I, I bristle a little bit. Like if people try to portray it like, oh, well this is how you can support me by like buying into this thing. I’m like, okay, that’s alright. Like, I, I, if you wanna, again, like I said, if you wanna play poly market with this, fine, but don’t, don’t try to wrap that around like, oh, well this is how you can give back. It’s like, no, you can give back in other ways. Like you can do direct donations, you can do other stuff. Like I would, I would much rather encourage people to be like, rather than putting a hundred dollars in Ralph Coin, [00:45:00] give a hundred dollars to the Ralph Guy directly. Apex 1.0? Brett: So, speaking of unprofitable open source, I have Apex almost to 1.0. Um, it officially handles, I think, all of the syntax that I had hoped it would handle. Um, it does like crazy things, uh, that it’s all built on common mark, GFM, uh, like cmar, GFM, GitHub’s project. Um, so it, it does all of that. Plus it handles stuff from like M mark with like indices. Indices, and it incorporates, uh. Uh, oh, I forget the name of it. Like two different ways of creating indices. It handles all kinds of bibliography syntax, like every known bibliography syntax. Um, I just added, you can, you can create insert tags with plus, plus, uh, the same way you would create a deletion with, uh, til detail. Um, and [00:46:00] I’ve added a full plugin structure, and the plugins now can be project local. So you can have global plugins. And then if you have specific settings, so like I have a, I, my blogs are all based on cramdown and like the bunch documentation is based on cramdown, but then like the mark documentation. And most of my writing is based on multi markdown and they have different. Like the, for example, the IDs that go on headers in multi markdown. If it’s, if it has a space in multi markdown, it gets compressed to no space in common Mark or GFM, it gets a dash instead of a space, which means if I have cross links, cross references in my document, if I don’t have the right header syntax, the cross reference will break. So now I can put a, a config into like my bunch documentation that tells Apex to use, [00:47:00] um, the dash syntax. And in my Mark documentation, I can tell it to use the multi markdown syntax. And then I can just run Apex with no command line arguments and everything works. And I don’t know, I, I haven’t gotten adoption for it. Like the one place I thought it could be really useful was DEVONthink, Christina: Mm-hmm. Brett: which has always been based on multi markdown, which. Um, is I love multi markdown and I love Fletcher and, um, it’s just, it’s missing a lot of what I would consider modern syntax. Christina: Right. Brett: so I, I offered it to Devin think, and it turned out they were working on their own project along the same lines at the same time. Um, but I’m hoping to find some, some apps that will incorporate it and maybe get it some traction. It’s solid, it’s fast, it’s not as fast as common Mark, but it does twice as much. Um, like the [00:48:00] benchmarks, it a complex document renders in common mark in about. Uh, 27 milliseconds, and in Apex it’s more like 46 milliseconds. But in the grand scheme of things, I could render my whole blog 10 times faster than I can with cramm down or Panoc and yeah, and, and I can use all the syntax I want. Challenges and Innovations in Markdown Processing Brett: Did I tell you about, did I tell you about, uh, Panoc Divs? The div extension, um, like you can in with the panoc D extension, you can put colon, colon, colon instead of like back, take, back, take backtick. So normally, like back ticks would create a code block with colons, it creates a div, and you can apply, you can apply inline attribute lists after the colons to make, to give it a class and an ID and any other attributes you wanna apply to it. I extended that so that you can do colon, [00:49:00] colon, colon, and then type a tag name. So if you type colon, colon, colon aside and then applied an attribute list to it, it would create an aside tag with those attributes. Um, the, the only pan deck extension that I wish I could support that I don’t yet is grid tables. Have you ever seen grid tables? Christina: I have not. Brett: There, it’s, it’s kind of like multi markdown table syntax, except you use like plus signs for joints and uh, pipes and dashes, and you actually draw out the table like old ASCI diagrams Christina: Okay. Brett: and that would render that into a valid HTML table. But that supporting that has just been, uh, tables. Tables are the thing. I’ve pulled the most hair out over. Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I, they feel like tables are hard. I also feel like in a lot of circumstances, I mean obviously people use tables and whatnot, but like, [00:50:00] only thing I would say to you, like, you know, apex is, is so cool and I hope that other projects adopt it. Um, and, uh, potentially with the POC support as far as you’ve gotten with it, maybe, you know, projects that support some of POC stuff could, could, you know, uh, jump into it. But I will say it does feel like. Once you go into like the Panoc universe, like that almost feels like a separate thing from the markdown Flavors like that almost feels like its own like ecosystem. You know what I mean? Brett: Well, yeah, and I haven’t tried to adopt everything Panoc does because you can als, you can also use panoc. You can pipe from Apex into Panoc or vice versa. So I’m not gonna try to like one for one replicate panoc, Christina: No, no. Totally Brett: do all of panoc export options because Panoc can take HTML in and then output PDFs and Doc X and everything. So you can just pipe output from Apex into Panoc to create your PDF or whatever Christina: And like, and, and like to, [00:51:00] and like to me, like that seems ideal, right? But I feel like maybe like adopting some of the other things, especially like, like their grid, you know, table, things like that. Like that would be cool. But like, that feels like that’s a, potentially has the, has the potential, maybe slow down rendering and do other stuff which you don’t want. And then b it’s like, okay, now are we complicated to the point that like, this is, this is now not becoming like one markdown processor to rule them all, but you Brett: Yeah, the whole point, the whole point is to be able to just run Apex and not worry about what cex you’re using. Um, but grid tables are the kind of thing that are so intentional that you’re not gonna accidentally use them. Like the, the, the, the impetus for Apex was all these support requests I get from people that are like the tilde syntax for underline or delete doesn’t work in Mark. And it, it does if you choose the right processor. But then you have to know, yeah, you have to [00:52:00] know what processor supports what syntax and that takes research and time and bringing stuff in from, say, obsidian into mart. You would just kind of expect things to work. And that’s, that’s why I built Apex and Christina: right? Brett: you are correct that grid tables are the kind of thing, no one’s going to use grid tables if they haven’t specifically researched what Christina: I right. Brett: they’re gonna work with. Christina: And they’re going to have a way that has their file marked so that it is designated as poc and then whatever, you know, flags for whatever POC features it supports, um, does. Now I know that the whole point of APEX is you don’t have to worry about this, but, but I am assuming, based on kind of what you said, like if I pass like arguments like in like a, you know, in a config file or something like where I was like, these documents or, or, or this URL or these things are, you know, in this process or in this in another, then it can, it can just automatically apply those rules without having to infer based on the, on the syntax, right. Brett: right. It has [00:53:00] modes for cram down and common mark and GFM and discount, and you can like tell it what mode you’re writing in and it will limit the feature set to just what that processor would handle. Um, and then all of the flags, all of the features have neg negotiable flags on them. So if you wanted to say. Skip, uh, relax table rendering. You could turn that off on the command line or in a config file. Um, so yeah, everything, everything, you can make it behave like any particular processor. Uh, but I focus mostly on the unified mode, which again, like you don’t have to think about which processor you are using. Christina: Are you seeing, I guess like in, in circumstances like, ’cause I, in, in my, like, my experience, like, I would never think to, like, I would probably like, like to, I would probably do like what you do, which is like, I’m [00:54:00] going to use one syntax or, or one, you know, processor for one type of files and maybe another and another. Um, but I, I don’t think that like, I would ever have a, and maybe I’m misunderstanding this, but I don’t think I would ever have an instance where I would be like mixing the two together in the same file. Brett: See, that’s my, so that’s, that’s what’s changing for me is I’m switching my blog over to use Apex instead of Cramdown, which means I can now incorporate syntax that wasn’t available before. So moving forward, I am mixing, um, things from common mark, things from cram down, things from multi markdown. Um, and, and like, so once you know you have the option Christina: right. Then you might do that Brett: you have all the syntax available, you start doing it. And historically you won’t have, but like once you get used to it, then you can. Christina: Okay. So here’s the next existential question for you. At what point then does it go from being, you know, like [00:55:00] a, a, a rendering engine, kind of like an omni rendering engine to being a syntax and a flavor in and of itself? Brett: That is that, yeah, no, that’s a, that’s a very valid question and one that I have to keep asking myself, um, because I never, okay, so what to, to encapsulate what you’re saying, if you got used to writing for Apex and you were mixing your syntax, all of a sudden you have a document that can’t render in anything except Apex, which does eventually make it its own. Yeah, no, it is, it’s always, it’s a concern the whole time. Christina: well, and I, I wouldn’t even necessarily, I mean, like, and I think it could be two things, right? I mean, like, you could have it live in two worlds where, like on the one hand it could be like the rendering engine to end all rendering engines and it can render, you know, files and any of them, and you can specify like whatever, like in, in, in like a tunnel or something. Like, you know, these files are, [00:56:00] are this format, these are these, and you know, maybe have some sort of, you know, um, something, even like a header files or whatever to be like, this is what this rendering engine is. Um, you know, with, with your projects to have it, uh, do that. Um. Or have it infer, you know, based on, on, on, um, the, the logic that you’re importing. But it could also be one of those things where you’re like, okay, I just have created like, you know, the omni syntax. And that’s a thing that maybe, maybe you get people to try to encourage or try, try to adopt, right? Like, it’s like, okay, you can always just use common mark. You can always just use GFM, you can always just use multi markdown, but we support these other things too, from these other, um, systems and you can intermix and match them. Um, because, because I, I do feel like at a certain point, like at least the way you’re running it yourself, you have your own syntax. Like, like, you know. Brett: yeah. No, you have perfectly encapsulated the, the major [00:57:00] design concern. And I think you’re correct. It can exist, it can be both things at once. Um, but I have like, nobody needs another markdown syntax. Like there are so many flavors right now. Okay. There may be a dozen. It’s not like an infinite number, but, but there’s enough that the confusion is real. Um, and we don’t need yet another markdown flavor, but we do need a universal processor that. Makes the differentiations less, but yeah, no, it’s, I need, I need to nail down that philosophy, uh, and really like, put it into writing and say, this is the design goal of this project, uh, which I have like hinted at, but I’m a scattered thinker and like, part of, part of the design philosophy is if someone says, Hey, [00:58:00] could you make this work? I just wanted a project where I could say, yeah, I’m gonna make that work. I, I, I’m gonna add this somewhat esoteric syntax and it’s just gonna work and it’s not gonna affect anything else. And you don’t have to use it, but if you do, there it is. So it’s kind of, it was designed to bloat to a circuit certain extent. Um, but yeah, I need to, I need to actually write a page That’s just the philosophy and really, really, uh, put, put all my thoughts together on that. Christina: Yeah, no, ’cause I was just kind of thinking, I was like, ’cause it’s so cool. Um, but the way that I would’ve envisioned using it, like I, I still like, it’s cool that you can mix all those things in together. I still feel like I probably wouldn’t because I’m not you. And so then I would just have like this additional dependency that it’s like, okay, if something happens to Apex one day and that’s the only thing that can render my documents, then like, you know what I mean? And, and, and if it’s not getting updated [00:59:00] anymore or whatever, then I’m kind of like SOL, um, Brett: Maku. Do you remember Maku? Christina: vaguely. Brett: It’s, the project is kind of dead and a lot of its syntax has been incorporated into various other processors. But if you built your whole blog on Maku, you have to, you have to be able to run like a 7-year-old binary, um, and, and it’ll never be updated, and eventually you’re gonna run into trouble. The nice thing about Unix based stuff is it’s. Has a, you can stop developing it and it’ll work for a decade, um, until, like, there’s a major shift in processors, but like, just the shift to arm. Like if, if Maku was only ever compiled for, uh, for, uh, Intel and it wasn’t open source, you would, it would be gone. You wouldn’t be able to run it anymore. So yeah, these things can happen. Christina: [01:00:00] Well, and I just even think about like, you know, the fact that like, you know, like some of the early processors, like I remember like back, I mean this is a million years ago, but having to use like certain, like pearl, you know, based things, you know, but depending on like whatever your backend system was, then you moved to PHP, they maybe you move, moved to, you know, Ruby, if you’re using like Jekyll and maybe you move to something else. And I was like, okay, you know, what will the thing be in the future? Yeah. If, if I, if it’s open source and there’s a way that, you know, you can write a new, a new processor for that, but it does create like, dependencies on top of dependencies, which is why I, I kind of feel like I like having like the omni processor. I don’t know if, like, for me, I’m like, okay, I, I would probably be personally leery about intermingling all my different syntaxes together. Brett: to that end though, that is why I wanted it in C um, because C will probably never die. C can be compiled on just about any platform. And it can be used with, like, if you have, if you have a Jekyll blog and you wanna [01:01:00] incorporate a C program into a gem, it’s no problem. Uh, you can incorporate it into just about any. Language you wanna use it with? Um, so like C was important. I like, I’m most comfortable writing in Ruby, but to do something like this in Ruby would A, be really slow and b, have, like Ruby is changing so fast right now, like stuff that worked in 2.7, no longer works, stuff that works in 4.0 doesn’t work in 3.3. So like, Ruby is moving quickly and all of my Christina: And breaking. Brett: constant updates. Yeah. Like, uh, there’s a, there’s a method in Ruby called Exist that you can use on a file object. And so it’s like file exists question mark and it tests if a file exists. But it used to be exists with an S-E-X-I-S-T-S and Ruby. 3.0 broke that. [01:02:00] So you have to use exist singular. And all of my scripts that use exist, plural, Christina: Oh my Brett: had to be rewritten. Yeah, yeah. No, Ruby, Ruby is not a, it’s not a stable platform for this kind of thing. AI in Coding and Personal Assistants Christina: that seems like that’s a great use case for ai. Um, uh, I’m not even gonna lie. Like, even more than just like a, a, a Reg X sort of thing, like that would be the sort of thing where I would be like, I would feed that into like, uh, to Claude and I’d be like, hi, please find all the instances of this function and update it to this and, Brett: That’s what with With the Christina: then run tests. Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Christina: run tests and make sure that it, that it doesn’t break. Brett: that is what I love AI for right now is tests. Like I can say, here’s this new feature I wrote, write test for it, and it writes all the fixtures, it writes all the unit tests, it writes all the implementation tests, and I can just. Run the test and know that it works. Um, and that’s the kind tests take a fair [01:03:00] amount of thinking to make something that tests, that validly tests the feature and is, is going to break if something actually breaks but isn’t going to break. Do you know what I’m, I’m not saying this very well, but like, test, test, take thinking and AI is really good at writing tests. AI is really good at analyzing what does this feature do and what are the edge cases for it and how can I test it? And I love AI for that. But yeah, when I get bug reports on gems that I wrote like five years ago in Ruby, I don’t fix them by hand anymore. I feed the pro i, I bring the whole project into like in my case cursor. And uh, generally I’ll use, um, Claude or sometimes Chet GPT Codex now. But, um, uh, I’ll just have it read the whole project and it be like, here’s the bug. And [01:04:00] I don’t even tell it what files, I don’t even give it like particular context. I just give it the whole project and it usually can solve the bug in about a minute. So I, I’m, I, I’m a proponent of AI coding. I guess I was a, I was hesitant. I was a, I was a naysayer for a long time, but I wouldn’t go back. Now I worry like if, if something, if something crashes and the market no longer will bear AI development, I would hate to see all these tools go away. ’cause I do not wanna go back to the dark ages of coding. Christina: Yeah. I, that, that, that, I mean, I, yeah, for lots of reasons I don’t want that to happen. Um, I’m obviously financially vested in, in that, uh, I, I think all of us are, whether we want to be or not. Like, like it’s, it’s like, it’s like if you have any sort of retirement account, like it is, Brett: It is. It is. The bulk of it is the bulk of the stock index right now. Christina: but, [01:05:00] but even, even putting that aside Yeah. To your point, like I wouldn’t wanna have to give those things up. And so I, I would hope that, that if, yeah, if, if it becomes too much that. The tools don’t just go away. Maybe they have to evolve, maybe they have to like change a little bit. But I mean, that, that, that is I think why it’s important to have people who are doing open things and um, uh, like, uh, I don’t know if you’ve played with Open Code or not, um, but it’s, it’s like a, um, so it’s basically like a cloud code, but um, it’s open source and you can bring your copilot subscription, you can bring your Codex subscription, uh, you can bring your CLO X uh, subscription. But Claude is Anthros been real, um, uh, shitty about that, where they’re like, oh no, you can only use your Claude credits on Claude Code, uh, for your subscription price, which like, whatever. Fair enough. Um, but, but like you could actually log in with your Copilot Pro or Pro Plus or enterprise subscription and. Use those credits in open code, if that’s what you wanna do, if you don’t wanna use the co-pilot, CLI or the SDK, uh, [01:06:00] but you can also use it with Codex and, and, and, um, other stuff. And I like things like that. Like, I like that, that people are creating like these open tools and kind of giving people choice. And in terms of how the agents work, um, again, like there’s no guarantee, like if this bubble burst, it’s not like the people who are doing this, you know, for free or who are being, you know, sustained by a startup are necessarily gonna still be able to, to be around, but at least it’s not locked behind, you know, some proprietary doors, you know, like the models might be. But if you can bring other models with it and if you have these, these other agent things, and at least that’s my hope. So. All right. GrAPPtitude Christina: Well, I know we’re running out of time. Do you wanna do, um, uh, gude. Brett: Yeah, we can, mine’s gonna be super quick. Um, I am this week going to mention Backdrop, which is a Mac app that makes, that does animated wallpapers. And they have a really nice library of just short, they’re video loops and [01:07:00] it, uh, it works on your desktop and on your lock screen. And I use like some cyberpunk ones that are like city nights scapes with just like a light rain effect across them. And I, I, I enjoy it. I get a kick out of it. Um, now that I have enough processing power and memory to, uh, to justify running video in the background, but. Christina: Right. Right. No, I love that. Um, I don’t think I have, I don’t think I’ve used backdrop, but I think that looks awesome. ’cause that’s been one of the things people have wanted to try to kind of create is like, okay, how do I create the live, you know, lock screens, how to create the live wallpapers? ’cause like that’s a feature that I guess they introduced maybe two versions of Mac West ago and, um, are, are pretty cool. But yeah, you do need some processing power. You don’t necessarily wanna, I don’t even know if they, I think they did run on Intel machines, but you don’t really wanna run on an Intel machine. Um, but they, they can be cool, but like, it’s, you know, they, they’ve made the process, like it used to be fairly easy to like, make your own screensavers and like Apple is, you know, deprecated. I think a lot of those libraries and things Brett: There [01:08:00] used to be so many cool screensavers. Christina: I had, um, I had the, the, um, aquarium one. Brett: Yeah. Christina: For years. And I love that one. I’ve even bought it and like it got to a certain point, like that guy was like, I can’t update this anymore. And I was like, that sucks. ’cause I loved the aquarium one so much. Uh, I had that one for like 20 years. Um, I even had that one on Windows, I think, and, and like, it, it, it was great. But I’m glad to see that they’ve done that. And I, I, I guess you pronounced the company’s name. Ri, it’s C-I-N-D-O-R-I. But they have a couple of apps. Um, one that I’ve used is a sensei, which is kind of like, um, uh, I stat. Um, and it’s, it’s like a, a, a system monitor app. And, um, I, I bought that on a Black Friday sale. Um. A while back, if you have I, stat Plus, I’m not gonna say that you need to get it, because they’re, they’re pretty super, uh, superfluous. But it is a, a pretty cool, like, you know, [01:09:00] um, advanced, like, kind of like, you know, status bar, like, you know, app, but it also includes some things like, I think it has, has like an uninstaller and some other types of tools in it. So, um, I’ve never, I haven’t used Backdrop, but I have used Sensei and, and I can give that a, a plus one, so that’s cool. Um, Brett: used to be a. A screensaver that could run shell scripts and apple scripts and put the output on your screen. And Christina: oh, yes, Brett: you could have different scripts run, like when it starts and when it ends and yeah, that’s what I ran for like 15 years. Christina: What was that called? Because I can’t remember, but Yeah. ’cause yeah, ’cause I think, I, I think on, on Windows there was a similar thing. It was called like rain meter or something, and then there was like, I don’t remember what it was called on MA West, but yeah, I think that went away. Like. That went away a long time ago. Um, but, uh, like, like probably a decade ago. Brett: Yeah. I wanna say like 2015 was Christina: yeah, I was gonna say that. That, that, that’s what I [01:10:00] remember too. I was like, oh yeah, ’cause that stuff was cool. ’cause I think I probably learned about it from you. And I had like certain things that it was like, oh yeah, okay, so this’ll run and it’ll, it’ll put the output on the screen and then I can see these things. And like, that was, that was super slick. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s cool to see, um, animated, uh, live wallpapers that people can create themselves. Like that’s pretty fun. Um, okay, my pick is, uh, we we’re talking about kind of, you know, agents and whatnot. There’s a project, it was known as Claude Bot. And, and so if you’ve been on like Twitter threads, uh, ma on I think a little bit, you might have seen it, it is now known as Mt bot, M-O-L-T-B-O-T. Uh, because, uh, anthropic didn’t like the name Claude, even though it was spelled with a wd. Um, and it is basically like a personal AI assistant. Um, people are like buying Mac Minis for this thing. You don’t need to have your own Mac mini. You can use it on a BPS, you can use it on a raspberry pie, but it is probably better to give it a dedicated machine or container. Um, or VPS or whatever, [01:11:00] rather than to run it like, you know, alongside all of your other stuff. But basically the idea is that it’s kind of like a personal assistant. So you can create like, um, like a a, a WhatsApp or a Telegram or like an iMessage account with it. And basically you can text it, um, your assistant thanks to be like, do your research on X for me. And it will then run, spin up, you know, uh, uh, an instance of of of Claude or, or, or Codex or whatever model you’re choosing, logging in with, with your credentials, and do that task for you and then text you back a link that’s like, okay, here’s all your research. Right? You could also tell us to do things like, okay, go through my inbox and, you know, Filch all these messages and then give me a summary of these things, or clean out my accounts or do this right? So you can, you can really kind of have it do tasks for you. Uh, you can have it do coding things too, but it’s, it’s pretty cool. Um, Federico, um, uh, wrote about it on Mac stories, but a lot of people have written about it. Um, uh, uh, uh. The, the, the [01:12:00] developer, um, is, is pretty, um, active. He’s actually in, in incredibly active. Um, he has actually gone on record as to be like, I am not going to do any sort of, you know, crypto thing. And so if you see anybody with a coin in my name, it is not me. Um, but no, but, but, but, uh, malt Bot is is really cool if you have like a, an older Mac line around, like, it doesn’t have to be the latest or anything. ’cause all it’s basically doing is acting as like a message gateway to basically be like a way to, Brett: Would it work? Would it work on like a 2012 Mac mini, Christina: Oh yeah. It’ll, Brett: those laying around. Christina: yes, it’ll work on that. It’ll work on a raspberry pie, right? Like it’ll work on a, it’ll work on a $5 a month VPS. Um, but yeah, no, it’ll work great on, on, on a Mac mini. And, and that would actually be cool ’cause then you could use iMessage, you know, to, to communicate with it. Um, but you could use Telegram, you can use WhatsApp, and, um, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty cool. So I, uh, that’s, um, that’s. That’s my, um, my pick. The only thing I [01:13:00] will say is that like, it, it runs best kind of using like Claude Opus 4.5 that is the most expensive Claude. So, you know, you can spend a lot of money on that if, if you’re using API keys or if you don’t have like subscriptions you can log in with, with accounts from, you know, various services. But, um, people are building all kinds of extensions for it so that you can do all kinds of things. Like you can control your Sonos, you can, uh, you know, uh, transcribe things. You can use it with obsidian. You can, uh, generate images with nano banana like you can do. All kinds of, uh, you know, you, you can like do searches across the web and then like extract those results and like have them sense you. Like there’s, you can control your lights. Like people are building a ton of stuff, um, for that and, and building, um, you know, kind of their own things too. And so, um, anyway, big fan. Um, and it’s kind of taken over the world. People are like joking where they’re like, oh, there’s gonna be a run on Mac Minis because of Claude Bot. And it’s like, okay, there’s, there’s not, but also I would not say, do not buy a Mac mini for Claude Bot. I do think, [01:14:00] uh, the M four Mac mini, I still, especially with the Ram crisis, I still feel like for $500, which is what you can usually get them for, um, especially if you use the, the, the student pricing that they don’t ever check anything on, um, I feel like it’s, that’s the best deal in tech. But, you know, there are plenty of things to, to do on that. Like, you, you don’t have to, you definitely don’t need to, to, to spin that if you just wanna to, um, play around with them multiple. So that’s, that’s my pick of the week. Brett: Awesome. I, uh, I have a couple Mac minis and a raspberry pie laying around. I might have to give this, uh, a Christina: Yeah, I give it a shot. Yeah, I give it a shot. ’cause it, I, I, I think, I think you, I think this is exactly the sort of shit that you’d be really into. Brett: Yeah. Conclusion and Upcoming Plans Brett: Alright, well that was a wide ranging episode. Christina: It was, Brett: Um, yeah. Well, thank you. Have a good, have a good rest of your week. I’ll let you know if I get water back. Christina: Yeah, let me, uh, let me know. And, uh, yeah, I’m gonna be gone for a couple of weeks ’cause I’m having surgery, [01:15:00] um, in six days. Um, but, uh, but I’ll talk to you, um, when I’m back and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let you, I’ll let you know. I’ll, I’ll see if I can like, maybe record a message or something if I’m not on the next episode, just to like, let everybody know like I survived. Brett: Yeah. We’d wanna know. We’d wanna Christina: yeah. If, if I didn’t survive, I’m sure that like, there will be ways that people find out. But, but yeah. Brett: All right. Well, good luck with your surgery and get some sleep. Christina: Get some sleep.

Christina and Jeff kick off the new year of Overtired sans Brett. They delve into Christina’s impending cervical spine surgery, ICE raids, and neighborhood signal groups. How do you keep mental health in check when Homeland Security is in your alley? Tune in for a wild start to 2026. Sponsor Copilot Money can help you take control of your finances. Get a fresh start with your money for 2026 with 26% off when you visit try.copilot.money/overtired and use code OVERTIRED. Chapters 00:00 New Year Kickoff 00:41 Personal Updates and Health Challenges 01:49 Surgery Details and Insurance Woes 04:45 Exploring Surgery Options and Recovery 12:44 Journaling and Mental Health 15:40 The Artist’s Way and Creative Practices 24:31 Unexpected Alley Incident 38:10 Family Activism and Signal Setup 38:52 Unexpected End of Year Incident 39:35 Speculations and Concerns 40:13 Dealing with Law Enforcement 45:35 Reflections on Responsibility 54:43 Gratitude for Signal 59:31 Tech Talk: Synology and Backup Solutions 01:03:08 Mac Updater Alternatives 01:10:03 Conclusion and Well Wishes Show Links Journaling – The Artist’s Way Signal Synology Updatest Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Transcript Promise Not to Whine [00:00:00] New Year Kickoff Christina: Well, happy New Year. You are listening to Overtired and I am Christina Warren, and I’m joined as always by Jeff Severance Zel and, uh, Brett Terpstra couldn’t be, uh, here with us in this, uh, happy early 2026 episode, but I’m, I’m super excited to be able to kick off the, uh, the first pot of the year with you, Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I am good. Happy New Year to you. Christina: Likewise, likewise. Um, oh, here, here, here’s to 2026 being significantly better than 20, 25. So Jeff: So far, not so good, but I’m, I’m really, I’m really excited about 2026. I’m Christina: I was gonna say, like, like globally, globally, so far not great, but, but, Jeff: in here. Good in here. Personal Updates and Health Challenges Christina: So, um, so how are, uh, uh, how, how, how is the, I guess a, I guess we can kind of a drill into like a, a brief kind of mental health or, or just personal update thing if we want. Um, how, um. How are things for you so far? Um, I guess the end of the year. How are things with the kids? Um, the [00:01:00] wife, everything. Jeff: the, how the year ended is, and that gets us back to almost a political level. I will save for a topic ’cause boy do I have a story. Um, but, uh, generally speaking, doing really well. Like we traveled, saw my dad and stepmom in Iowa. Saw my in-laws in Indiana, had a really nice, just like generally had a really nice time off. Um, and despite the fact that I’m under a super stressful deadline over the next few days, I feel good. How about you? You got a lot going on. Christina: I, I do, I do. So I guess just kind of a, a, an, an update on, um, the, uh, the Christina, you know, cervical spine, um, saga since we last spoke a couple of weeks ago. Um, I guess maybe two weeks ago now. Um, uh, it was maybe a week ago. Um, uh, it was two weeks ago, I think. Sorry, it was, it was right before Christmas. Surgery Details and Insurance Woes Christina: Um, I was still awaiting, um, hearing back about when I would be scheduled for, uh, surgery and I’m getting, um, uh, artificial disc replacement in, um, I guess [00:02:00] between like C six, C seven of my cervical spine. And I do finally have a surgery date. Yay. Um, the bad, yeah, the bad news is it’s not until February 2nd, so I’ve gotta wait, you know, a month, which sucks. Um, I would have been able to get in, you know, uh, three weeks ago at this point. Um, had I been able to like, I guess like book immediately, but without insurance, like approval, um, I didn’t really want to do that. Um, I think, I think people, uh, can understand why, like, you know, when the doctor’s like, well, we can book you now, but you’ll just need to sign some forms that say you’ll be responsible for the bill if insurance doesn’t pay. Jeff: Oh fine. Get Where’s my pen? Christina: right, right. And I’m like, yeah, this is, you’re gonna keep me overnight just for, you know, observation to make sure like nothing bleeds or, or, or whatever’s a problem. Um, ’cause they’re gonna go through like the, the, the front of my, of my neck to, to be able to reach, you know, um, things that way and, and, and so, [00:03:00] you know, and be under, you know, anesthesia, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not like a huge critical procedure, but it’s still neurosurgery. Jeff: is through the front of your neck. Christina: and, and, and, and, and, and again, and it’s a neurosurgeon and it’s like, you know, they’re gonna, you know, take some stuff out and try to make sure that like, you know, very, like they’re gonna be, you know, um, screwing up against my trachea and stuff. And like, yeah. I mean, like, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not minor. It’s not like I can just go in in an afternoon and be like, oh, I’m, I’m, I can just like walk out. Jeff: Right. Christina: Um, um, although apparently I will feel better, uh, as soon as it happens, but yeah, I mean, this is probably gonna be a six figure, you know, operation, I’m assuming so. No, I, I, I’m sorry. In, in this climate, uh, I don’t feel comfortable. Just, I need my name to be like, oh, yeah, I’ll, I’ll be responsible for that, and then be responsible for trying to track everyone down to, to pay. So that’s the frustrating thing is that, and now of course, you know, you, you get the beginning of the year, a bunch of people have been waiting, you know, to get, you know, things scheduled, I’m sure, and [00:04:00] whatnot. So I’m grateful that I’m scheduled at all. Um, I’m also grateful that right now I’m not insignificant pain, which is a really good thing because if this had been the pain level that I was in for the first few weeks, then like, I wouldn’t, I, you know, I mean, I would wait. I mean, if, if, if you have to wait, you have to wait. But, um, I, I, I might have like pressed upon them like. Is there any way we can move this up? Um, but I’m not in that position, which is good. The only thing is just that the numbness, um, on both arms. But, but, but primarily, yeah. No, I mean, that’s not gone away and, and it’s, and it’s not going to is the thing, right? Like there are a lot of people and like, and I, I’ve started now that I’ve got, got it like actually like done and like scheduled and you know, I’m going through all like the, you know, um, checklist stuff before you, you go in and whatnot. And I have like my, you know, pre-up appointments and all that stuff scheduled. Exploring Surgery Options and Recovery Christina: Um, I am starting to, to look more into, I guess like, you know, I guess recovery videos that people have put up on YouTube and, and reading a few things on Reddit. Although I’m doing my best to, to stay off the internet with [00:05:00] this stuff as much as possible. Um, just because for me it’s, it’s not beneficial, right? Like, it, it’s, it’s one thing if you know, um, you, uh, you don’t like. If, if you can separate and not kind of go down rabbit holes and like freak yourself out or whatever, sure. Maybe it can be good information, but for me, like I, I know my own kind of, you know, limits in terms of, of how much is good for me. And so I’ve, I’ve tried to keep that in moderation, but I have watched a few, you know, videos of people, you know, kind of talking about their experiences. And then of course then that gets used sent with like videos of like doctors who of course, for their own reasons, like are trying to promote like, oh, well you should do the, the, the fusion versus the, the, the disc replacement and, or you should do this versus that. And I’m like, okay. I actually watched one interesting talk that, that some guy gave it a medical conference and neurologist gave it a medical conference and it was a neurosurgeon, I guess is, is the proper term. But that I think kind of really distinctly a, it was very similar to. Exactly what my surgeon said to me, [00:06:00] um, when he was kind of explaining the differences in the procedures. Um, and, and b but kind of went into, I guess like the, the difference in terms of outcomes and, um, and it made me feel better about like that if I’m a good candidate for this procedure, that, that this is, um, the right thing to, to do and probably will be better for me long term. Um, because the, the results are, are better and, but not by a small portion, not like by like a, a gargantuan portion. But they are, they are, there is like a sizable difference between outcomes in terms of whether like the average person who needs a revision, um. For, you know, cervical spine versus getting, you know, disc replacement versus, um, uh, fusion. Fusion has been around a lot longer, and so insurance companies are a lot more likely to approve that. But in Europe, they’ve been doing the, the disc replacement stuff for 25, 30 years. Um, and so there is a lot of data on it, but it’s been a much more recent thing in the United States because insurance companies didn’t really start to do it until about five or 10 years ago. And so, and so, you know, some people will, [00:07:00] like some doctors who very clearly have an agenda on, on YouTube and like, that’s fine, like your practices, your practice and you’re comfortable with what you’re comfortable with. But they’ll be like, oh, we don’t have enough data on, you know, the types of, um, you know, discs that we’re putting in people’s, you know, necks and, and how, how long they, you know, last and, and there might be some differences in terms of if you’re doing like a multi-step, meaning you’re doing like multiple discs at once. Or if, you know, depending on like what, what, what part of the spine you’re in. And like, I, I think at this point for, for artificial disc replacement in the US they’ll do it two steps. So they can do two at once, but they won’t typically do three, although they will do three in Europe. And so there are people who will go to Europe and get the three Jeff: They’re so liberal in Europe. We’ll do three. Christina: Well, I mean, I think it’s a difference in, in that case, just a matter of like, if they’ve been doing the surgeries there longer, you know, then, then they, you know, and, and, and you know, and, and this is not uncommon in, in various forms of, of medicine, you know, where like you have different, you know, procedures and different exploratory things in different fields, in different areas.[00:08:00] So anyway, so then I get kind of trapped into those rabbit holes. But the interesting, the night, the, the, I guess comforting thing is that like, you know, I’ve been reading, you know, around reading, but watching people who were doing vlogs, like after their surgery and like there was this guy who. I was a few years younger than me, but he, you know, posted some updates. I, I guess he got his in July and he kind of did like, you know, updates, you know, kind of like, you know, this was me right after surgery. This was me, you know, three weeks later. This was me however many months later. And that was really great to see. Um, and, and his, his scar actually healed really nicely, which was encouraging. So, um, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m hopeful. I mean, the one thing that’s interesting that, like almost the universal thing that people say, of course you have a few people who say, this didn’t help or, or, you know, this, this was bad or whatever. And, and obviously like that’s always terrible to see that, but you know, you’d have to kind of like go by law of averages. But the, one of the central kind of things is a lot of people being like, I should have done this earlier. And, and so I’m feeling good about that because that is, I, I, I, I don’t know what this says about me, [00:09:00] but like there’s was never a moment in my mind where I’ve been like, oh, I’m not gonna get the surgery as soon as I can get the surgery. That’s never even been part of my like, thought process. And, and, and, and, and it’s funny because I think that like, that is actually odd compared to almost everybody else. Um, the general public, I guess, who goes into these sorts of things. Um, or at least the people who are vocal on the internet, right? So, so maybe like, maybe there are a lot more people like me who just don’t go to forums and comment on stuff and are just like, yeah, I’m gonna get the surgery because that’s what the doctor says. There’s the right thing to do, and that’s what makes sense to me and I wanna, you know, not be in pain and I wanna be able to feel my arm and all that stuff. Um, but there are a lot of people who, I don’t know why, um, I mean, I guess the idea of surgery is, is really scary. And, and like, I can, I can understand that obviously, but to the point where they’re like, okay, well no, I’m gonna try physical therapy and I’m gonna do everything I can to avoid surgical intervention. And I’m, I’m like, no. Like, like [00:10:00] freaking cut me up, doc. Right? Like, like, like, get me in, get me in. Like, let’s get better, right? Like, I, I’m not, I’m not here to like fuck around with like, ’cause right now, because the immediate pain is not there, I could be okay. Right? Like, I Jeff: Sure. Christina: try steroids, I could try pt, I could try to do other types of therapies and be like, well, maybe that will move the nerve around. Or maybe it can get the disc like UN you know, bolt, whatever the case may be. And maybe I won’t need surgery. Um, or I could let this go on longer and continue to be weakness, you know, and, and, and in, you know, it’s not like I’m not in, I’m, I’m not in active pain, but it’s not, not painful at certain times. Not worrying about is this just going to become like a permanent way that I feel, which would be. Awful. Um, and, you know, and, and, and like, it’s not the most debil debilitating thing, like I said. Um, if, if I was in a position where I, I couldn’t get surgery, obviously I could be okay right now, but you never know. Also, like, when is it going to, to swap again? Right? [00:11:00] Like, and, and, and, and for me, I’m also, I’m like, I, I don’t wanna have to like, live in fear of doing something, you know, to my arm or my neck or, or whatever, and, you know, making things worse. So, Jeff: right. Oh, I’m glad you’re doing it. Christina: yeah, me too. So anyway, that was a long-winded update, but Wow. Jeff: Yeah, that’s intense. So I’m really glad the pain is not what it was ’cause Holy shit. Christina: Yeah, the pain was, was really, really bad. And I, like, I look back now and it’s, you know, I, I guess ’cause it’s been a couple of weeks since it’s been really debilitating and it is, and again, I don’t know like that this is me or this is like just somebody else, but I, or this is me or this is the comment with other people. Sorry. Um, is that. Like when I’m not in pain anymore. It is such, so much like, I mean, depression is like this too. It’s so much like a vacuum. It’s like when you’re in it, that’s all you can see. But when you’re out of it, like it’s so easy to forget what it was like Jeff: Yeah, yeah, totally. Completely. Christina: totally completely right. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. I can even imagine being in the [00:12:00] situation you’re describing, knowing I have a surgery coming up and being like, well, do I want to? Which, like, to your point now, you make that call and you’re worrying forever. Am I gonna wake up? And this thing’s there. Next time it happens, I gotta wait another God knows how long before the surgery, when I’ll know it’s time. Like, you know it’s time now. Get in there. Christina: No, totally, totally. And and that’s the thing. And I think sometimes it can be. Like I said, like when you’re not in the thick of, of it, whether it’s like, you know, feeling depressed or feeling overwhelmed or, or stressed or, or in physical pain or whatever, like it’s easy for to forget like what that can be like. And so I have to just kind of like remind myself like, no, this was really fucking bad. And yeah, you got through it and now you’re on the other side of it. And so you’re like, oh, okay, well, you know, I, I, I could, you know, do whatever, but you’re like, don’t, don’t forget what that was like. Right. Journaling and Mental Health Christina: Um, sometimes I think like, and, and I, and I’m bad at remembering to do this, but new thing for the new year, I guess is why, um, it is important I think to like write things down, right. Like however we’re feeling, whether it’s, you know, good, bad, whatever. [00:13:00] Sometimes, like for me, like it is Jeff: Just like journal you mean, right? Christina: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Be, because it can be useful just to like look back and like, if you’re in a darker spot to remember, hey, there were times when I felt this way. Right. Might not bring, bring me back to that place. But it’s a good reminder. But also I think almost just, it’s importantly, it’s, it’s, it’s the inverse where it’s like you need to remember when you’re in a good place. What it can be like to be in a worse place. Um, because, you know, I think that’s why sometimes people make decisions they make about what medicines they’re going to take or not take or what therapies they’re going to continue or not continue. And, um, and it’s, and it’s really easy to get into that, you know, cycle of, okay, well I’m fine now, um, because you’re removed enough from what it felt like to be bad, you know? And, and then, and, and, and also I think sometimes like, uh, and this is why I wish that I’ve been journaling more over the last few years. You can really get yourself into a deep depression and not realize it. Jeff: Yes, yes. Yeah. And I feel like journaling too, just like helps you internalize some of the flags and [00:14:00] warning signs, even if you’re never looking back, like, ’cause you’re gonna process them a little bit. Christina: yeah, yeah. Jeff: can’t, I, I’ve journaled over the years for stints of time. I can’t go back into them. I almost like, I almost like bounce off the page when I try. Um, but I really have come to believe that just the act of doing it is the thing. Christina: agree. Jeff: Yeah, Christina: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I, I usually don’t re reread my old stuff either, and I haven’t journaled regularly in a really, really long time, and I actually would like to get back into that again. I think it would be better for my overall health, but similar to you, it’s one of those things I wouldn’t necessarily revisit, Jeff: But now, you know, you have a document, you have a reason to go back into it. Christina: right. Well, but, but also, I mean, I think to your point, just the act of doing it, um, you know, and this is case, we’re both writers. I think this is the, the case for a lot of, of people who, who write like it, it is one of those things that like, that’s what will almost like cement it in my mind. You know what I mean? Like, as, as, as mattering [00:15:00] like, like even if it’s something innocuous, even if I don’t remember the small details of just that, that the fact that like, I’ve done it, like, like to your point, helps you kind of process things and kind of, you know, act more as kind of a therapeutic place. Jeff: Yeah, I don’t, when I’m writing like that, or just in general, I don’t feel like I’m writing from my brain or feel like I’m writing on my brain. Christina: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: It’s like I am actually putting the information in, not drawing it out weirdly. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I know, I, I, I, I love that actually, I’ve never thought of it before. Writing on my brain. I love that. That’s really, that, I think that’s really profound. Jeff: Yeah. So there’s, um, there’s a kind of journaling that I wish I, I, well, I don’t beat myself up at all to be clear about this ’cause that I’m too old to do that anymore. The Artist’s Way and Creative Practices Jeff: Um, but there’s this book I read back in. Oh God, 2019 99 called The Artist’s Way by this woman Julie Cameron. And I don’t remember much about this book except for, and I probably have talked about it on this podcast [00:16:00] years ago at this point, but she has this practice, she calls morning Pages. And the idea is you sit down first thing in the morning, you fill three pages, you don’t think about what you’re writing or why you just keep the pen moving. And, and I, what I have found, that’s the only kind of real regular journaling I’ve ever done. It’s a great, great hack for me. ’cause it, it, I can do that. And I fill, I’ll fill a, you know, big notebook and I have a box full of them from over the years. ’cause again, I’m old. Um, but what is, I have never, I don’t think there’s been a single day that I’ve done those morning pages when I haven’t been a little surprised and something hasn’t emerged that. I’m like, I’ll think to myself, well shit, if I hadn’t have done this, where would that have stayed and lived and, and lodged itself. Right. Like, um, so anyway, I I’m glad you are bringing this up ’cause it’s reminding me of that and New Year is a great time to be thinking about that. Christina: Totally, totally. No, I love that. And I, yeah, I, I found the book The Artist’s Way, a Spiritual Path to Higher [00:17:00] Creativity. Jeff: Yes, Christina: and it’s like this yellow gold book, but like, apparently, and then like they, they, they, they, they sell Morning pages Journal, a Jeff: they do, of course. I Christina: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Jeff: it probably took her two decades to realize she should be cashing in on that, but she did. Christina: No, honestly, so the book, it looks like it was published the first one in 92, Jeff: Yeah. Christina: then they were selling the companion volume to the Artist’s Way as December 29th, 1997. Um, so, so like Jeff: that you’re doing this history. This is delightful. Christina: I, well, I just looked at Amazon is just kind of filling this out for me, so I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, so at least it is possible that, that the, the book pages might have been even earlier than that, but like, good for her on like, recognizing there’s also a Artist’s Way workbook, um, now that was like a decade later, like 2006. Jeff: Yeah, that’s what I, maybe that’s what I’m thinking of. That came much later. Christina: Yeah, yeah. But, but it does seem like she got into that, like a David Allen kind of, you know, like, you know, whatever steps of highly, you know what I mean? Like, like all that kind of like stuff, [00:18:00] which Jeff: You’re letting the publisher have those meetings with you. Christina: Which honestly look good for you if you’re selling that many and whatnot. And, and if you come up with this journaling way, yes, sell the freaking paper. You should be selling PDF copies so that people can have it on their iPads now, like, you know, Jeff: Yeah. Christina: or, or, or on the remarkable tablets or whatever. Jeff: she had another thing actually I haven’t thought about in a long time. It wasn’t as useful to me long term. It helped me in the moment I. In the moment I was in, she called ’em artist dates and the idea was like, ’cause as you said in the title, it’s all about creativity. She was like, you, you take yourself out, go to a, whatever it is, a museum, a art supply shop, something like that. But with intention, like, I am going out to do this thing on my own alone because I know that it has some connection to what feels good to me about art and creativity and expression, whatever it was. That seems like a silly thing. Like it’s basically her saying, go to a museum. There was something about calling it an artist date. I think I was in a relationship too at the time where I was like not, it was not easy for me to [00:19:00] just go do something on my own. It was just a weird dynamic a little bit. So anyway, that was another good thing that came out of it. I mean, I, you don’t really have to work hard to tell me to go do something on my own, but at that time in my life you did. Yeah, she was great. That’s awesome. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. No, that is funny. Yeah. So yeah, so apparently that book was published in, in 1992 and, um, you know, uh, was immediately like, well, the first printing was about 9,000 copies. In 1992, the book was published by Jeremy Tarcher. Now part of Pink Wing Group revised and millions of copies have since been sold millions. Jeff: it was total like guru status by the Christina: Oh yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. You know, and, and in a, yeah, she, she was, uh, she’s a, she was born in 1948, and so, uh, she’s still alive. She’s still kicking it. Um, Jeff: yeah. I think she made some new book that was like kind of a take on it, but it was a different, I don’t remember. Anyway. You’re the Christina: Yeah, no, no. Her, her list of like, of like books that she’s published is, she’s the, the most recent one. So she’s still doing the, the, the [00:20:00] writer’s way thing, living the, the artist’s way. An intuitive path to greater creativity. So I guess they did a 2024 version Write for Life, a toolkit for Writers Seeking wisdom, A spiritual Path to Creative Connection. Six week artist program. Jeff: it’s kind of like David Allen, where it’s like, wouldn’t it be nice to have created something when you were, whatever, reasonably younger, like 20, 30 years ago, that not only that you can ride for a long time, but you probably don’t feel bad about riding it for a long time. Right? Like, ’cause you can create things or have a band or something like that, that like your only choice is to ride that thing, but it gets pretty ugly. I see you Vince Neil. Um, but yeah, anyway, must be Christina: No, it ha it has to be nice, right? ’cause it’s like, okay, well no, and, and then it has all these little spinoff things, so it’s not like you have to feel like, I mean, although th this actually, this would, this would be an interesting idea for like a, a, a novel or a screenplay or something, which would be to be like, okay, you know, and people have have done like riffs on these things before on, on, you know, shows or whatever. But, so this would be an interesting story, I think to kind of focus on where it’s like you have somebody who is like, just famous for like, this, this one thing that they did, [00:21:00] and now their whole life has to revolve around it. But what if it was like, something that they didn’t like actually, like, believe in? Jeff: yes, Christina: what if you have the guru? What if you have the guru who’s like, actually is like, actually I don’t really, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m David Allen, but I, but I can’t actually get anything done. I have to have like a whole, you know, cadre of assistance to actually organize my, my, my, my calendar and my life. For me, you know, I don’t Jeff: Carol and Pluribus, I don’t know if you’re watching Pluribus, but that Yes. Her, her whole like book series. Clearly she was at a point where she’s like, yes, I should still ride this, but I cannot. That’s all right. Things changed for her. Um, okay. I have to tell you about something insane that happened to me at the end of 25. Christina: Okay. Alright. Before, before we do that, let me let Ru first, um, let’s, uh, let’s, let’s go ahead and, and get our, our sponsor read Jeff: Oh, way to remember the sponsor. We remember you sponsor. Christina: We, we, we do. So, um, I, I, I, before we hear about what happened to you at the end of 2025, let’s, uh, let’s go ahead and talk, uh, forward a little bit about 2026. So, are you [00:22:00] ready to take control of your finances? Well meet copilot money, the personal finance app that makes your money feel clear and calm with the beautiful design and smart automation. Copilot money brings all your spending, saving and investment accounts into one place available on iOS, Mac, iPad, and now on the web. And so, as we are entering 2026, it is time for a fresh start. And, you know, with Mint, uh, shutting down last year and rising financial uncertainty, consumers are seeking clarity and control. And this is where copilot money comes in. So, copilot money. Basically helps you track your budgets, your savings goals, and your net worth seamlessly. And with a new web launch, you can enjoy a sending experience on any device. 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That’s try dot copilot money slash Overtired and use that coupon Overtired and you will, as I said, save 26% off your first year. So try copilot money slash Overtired. Use the coupon code Overtired. Thank you very much. Copilot money. Jeff: Bam. Can you hear my Synology? Christina: No, Jeff: Oh, that’s funny. ’cause I, I get this. Hum. I recently com I, I’ll visit this in GrAPPtitude. I, [00:24:00] uh, I completely clean, installed my Synology after like six years. ’cause when I did. Build it. Initially, I actually didn’t really understand how to use it, and I, and I made some mistakes that because of all the stuff I put on, it was hard to sort of, I was treating it like it was gonna be an external drive and I could just kind of work with, you know, which was a huge mistake. Um, but anyway, I, it’s working so hard. It’s working so hard and it’s on my desk, which it normally wouldn’t be. So I hear this humming. Didn’t know if you heard it. Christina: I, I did not, I did not, which is a good thing. So, okay, so, all right. Uh, let, let’s, let’s go back. So what, what, yeah, I’m ready. I need to hear what happened to you at the end of 2025. All right. Unexpected Alley Incident Jeff: All right, so, um, my boys are out. They’re almost never out, but they’re both out with friends, different places. My wife and I we’re home and we were eating dinner and I got an alert from my back door ring camera, and. That almost never happens. It’s only exists to, to notify me of like alley shoppers. We’re in, in the city. We have an alley behind us and, and we get a fair amount of pretty [00:25:00] harmless alley shopping. Like it’s, is the car unlocked? If it is, you got some change. If not, I’m moving on. Um, but I like to know when they’re there. Christina: yeah, Jeff: We’ve had some bikes stolen and some people go into our garage and stuff like that. It’s very rare that it goes off less than I actually thought it would. Um, and so it goes off and it goes off at around 7:00 PM very unusual. And, uh, and so I, I, I pull it up and I look and, and I, all I can see is there’s two cars parked in the alley. I have this weird view where, um, it’s kind of a fence and then our garage. So I can see between those two things to the alley basically. So there’s two cars. That’s weird actually. And when I see some of people’s like videos about folks breaking into their cars, there’s often two that come. And so I was like, oh, okay, well it’s, I should just like go out and look. So we go and we kind of look at our, at our back window to see if we can see anything. And we’re just like, yeah, it’s weird. They’re not only parked but the headlights are off. And like, I’m gonna go out and check it out. She’s like, well first, why don’t you look at the video it recorded, which I wasn’t thinking of at all. So I pull up the video, it recorded, and I see these [00:26:00] cars park, but it’s like three or four of them come through the two that I can see park. And all of a sudden there are probably seven or eight figures running down the alley from these cars. Okay? And I’m like, well, that’s crazy. And so I walk out there and I go up to the first car and it’s got Texas plates. And around here where we have a little bit of an ice invasion, Texas plates are reported a lot. I look at the next car and it’s got no plates at all. And I look at the car after that and it’s got vanity plates, specifically chosen one with a Z. Um, and, and I’m like, oh my God. It’s the thing like ice is in my alley. And, uh, and so I come back in, I I’m like, you tell my wife, like, should probably get your coat on. I think it’s the thing is what I said. And, and we go out and sure enough, like at the end of our alley where there is a family and, and they are, um, US citizens, they’re Mexican immigrants, um, that’s where I see all these officers sort of, or these agents sort of coalescing and um, I’m gonna leave some aspects of this out. They were [00:27:00] actually, they were serving, uh, uh, narcotics warrant that ended up being totally misguided. Nothing happened of it. Um, but it was super scary. But I kind of don’t wanna say more than that because I wanna be really clear that as everyone should know about policing, a search warrant is not an indictment. Um, and oftentimes search warrants are so searching and, and, and often come up with. With nothing. Right? And, and maybe even were targeted at the wrong person. And there’s didn’t even have the name of my neighbor on it. It’s this whole thing. But the point is, it was a little different from what we’ve been hearing because there was a different agency there serving a warrant. It was the airport, airport, police department, ’cause of a package. So there was that piece, there was actually a signed warrant. ’cause everyone’s trained to say, show me the warrant. Show me the warrant. So everyone, you know, my wife and I were the first ones there. Um, and then another neighbor rolled up, and then I’ll get to the rest in a second. Um, so it, it’s shocking that it’s happening in our alley. Christina: in our alley, right? Jeff: just like, Christina: you, yeah. Jeff: what? What the Christina: I, I mean, how [00:28:00] I would feel to a certain extent would be like, I’d be like, am I in Amer in an episode of the Americans? Like, like, you know, Jeff: is, did they have to write it this way? Just ’cause how else are you gonna bring it to the people? You know? It’s, you gotta bring it to the characters. Um, so anyway, we go down there and, and there’s one, so all of the, everyone decides the airport PD guy who has no mask and is kind of like presenting like a pretty normal cop basically. And he is got a badge and a name and a number. But walking in and out of the house, all around us are these guys who are in full battle fatigues. They’ve got masks on, they’ve got ars. Um, they are, they are a weird mix of people. There’s a woman in there who’s like looking like, literally like she was cast for a movie to be, uh, an, an ice person. In this case they were Homeland Security Investigations, HSI. But it’s all intertwined at this point. Um, and then there was a guy that must have been like eight feet. That was crazy. There was a single guy that was wearing a, like a straight up like helmet, uh, for, as if he were going into battle. [00:29:00] Nobody else is wearing a helmet. Um. And none of them were talking. They were just passing through. And, um, and so we tried to engage one of them, talked to them for a little bit, do the thing you do. Hey, why don’t you take that mask off? You know, I don’t wanna get docked. I was like, uh, Christina: around. Jeff: it was like, I both understand why you don’t wanna get docked. I also feel like you’ve got the power here, brother. Um, and which was the conversation we had, um, I was like, you have a mask on. You also have your finger on the trigger of a gun. And he’s like, well, that’s not, it’s not on the trigger. This is how we hold guns, dude. I was like, I understand that, but your finger is itching at the trigger of a gun. And so he put his hands on top of the butt of the gun. ’cause it was kind of, you know, mounted the way it is. Is that better? I was like, no, you’ve still got all the power. Take the mask off. Like, at least. Um, and uh, what, what was really interesting, and I I have this sort of like wrap up that occurred to me later that kind of blew my mind is, you know, in our neighborhood, um, because ice activity has been going on all around our neighborhood, like in. Neighborhoods [00:30:00] surrounding our neighborhood or a little further out, but all within a, I could get in the car and rush out there distance. Basically we have these, we have these neighborhood signal groups. The first one that popped up was actually around my son’s school, which is very close to here and has a lot of East African and Hispanic, um, immigrants and, and, um, and so that we knew that was like, you know, people were scared there. Some kids weren’t coming to school. And so, um, some neighbors organized in such a way that they could a, have a signal, uh, communication channel. But also part of that was planning at the beginning of the day and that release time for enough people to sort of be paired up in areas around the school, but not so close that it freaks the kids out. That like if something happened, there could be sort of a rapid response. So we had that signal group. There’s a broader signal group that probably covers like a four block area, and then there’s a wider one that’s our wider neighborhood basically. And that one’s like a rapid response signal group. So these have been going. Pretty, like consistently [00:31:00] ever since it was announced that we were getting ICE and Homeland Security folks here. Um, so the network was all in place. And, and so I’m out there initially and I see all the cars. I’m like, holy shit. Wife and I go to the end of the block. We start talking to first the airport PD guy who’s there, and then the the one HSI guy who comes out. Then another neighbor, another neighbor. I go back to take pictures of the plates because folks around here are keeping a registry that you can get through the signal group of all of the makes and models of cars that we know have been at these, um, kind of ICE activities or homeland security activities, and then their license plates. And so there’s like a running log, which has happened in other cities too. So I was taking pictures of all the cars. Um, but I was pretty like, I mean, I’ve been through some shit and. Having it in your alley is very different from going halfway across the world as like an activist or something. Um, and having it ha neighbors are people we know and care about. And so knowing that, not knowing what’s happening for them, which I don’t mean to bury that lead [00:32:00] ’cause I’m kind of getting to that part, but I also want to just respect their privacy. Um, so like the thing I should have mentioned at the top is like, we know these folks and it was fucking terrifying to be standing there arguing with these HSI guys knowing that at some point, or just assuming at some point these people we know are gonna be dragged outta the house in front of us. And then it was just like this constant question of what the fuck will we do? Then? It did not happen to be really clear, uh, ahead of time. So I’m taking pictures of these cars, I’m like, oh shit. I’m supposed to notify like the signal group, but I’ve got, I’ve got all the presence I need to take pictures of cars. I’ve got the presence I need to engage these guys, which my wife was doing plenty good job of, so I could just like walk away and do the license plate thing. But when I pulled up my phone. To open signal. I opened Slack three times, like I could not, I got an S into my search, my app search, and like kept clicking the wrong thing. I was shaking. It was also freezing out and so like I’m shaking and so [00:33:00] thank God it occurred to me. I have one friend I know on this signal group that I, I know would answer the phone, so I called her. I called her and I was like, I need to be quick. Here are like the fundamental details. Can you please notify? The signal group and the rapid response people. So that was great. She did initially, the first group that showed up, which was just incredible, were like all of our neighbors, we all know this family. Like it’s not, they are just neighbors. It’s not like it’s a special offset group or something. Like they’re neighbors. So all of the neighbors show up. We have a really tight block. Um, that was incredible because it’s not like it’s a neighbor of activists. It’s what’s been incredible about this stuff from the beginning, which is like how easy it seems to be for people to pop outta their house and be like, Uhuh. Like it seems like, it seems like a lot of people are not feeling inhibited about that, which I think is really cool. And I totally respect the people that feel inhibited, right? Like, ’cause it’s just, it’s a whole thing to go out there. So we had this great group of neighbors and they were all, we had a public school teacher who was just killing it with this one HSI guy. It was so, [00:34:00] so good to watch and it felt really powerful and I think she was doing a really good job of trying to sort of like. Knock some things into this guy’s head knowing that like, you know, you’re in a dynamic that kind of you, there’s not a lot of room for things to change. Right. But given that she, it was really just inspiring watching her do her thing and then the like rapid response community showed up, which is like a mix of, you know, folks who are kind of just dedicated neighbors and then people who are sort of what you might call the usual suspects, right? Like the people you would expect, especially in South Minneapolis to show up at a thing like this. And I don’t know if you’ve heard about the thing people do with whistles around these things. Christina: Yeah. Well, I, I, all I’ve heard is that, and I ha, so all I know is I think sometimes people have whistles and kind of like, like, like blow them, almost like to alert people like that, that like, like the, like the, the, the, that like ice is there. Jeff: Yes, exactly. And that yes, that’s exactly it. And that’s been going on here and, [00:35:00] and everybody’s getting whistle. You know, sometimes when you get a good, it’s, I’m not calling it a bit, ’cause I’ll tell you in a minute why it was effective, um, in ways that I hadn’t anticipated. But, uh, you know, it’s like a, it’s, I can do this, I can get a whistle, I’m gonna get a whistle, right? Like, that’s something I can do. Like, it’s something that really caught on and there’s all these whistles being passed around and people on the neighborhood group being like, got a bag of whistles if you wanna come by. So I, ima imagine at this point that when these HSI or ICE people roll up to a thing before they get out, they’re like T minus 15 minutes to whistles, right? Like, this is how long we have before everyone shows up. And, and so pretty soon it’s whistles everywhere. I had a neighbor who kept putting off her, um. Car alarm just to make more crazy noise. We had another neighbor next to this neighbor who is a very conservative like Trump guy who, when he doesn’t like the noise that’s happening in the neighborhood sets off fireworks. And for some reason he was like, I’m gonna do the thing I do, even though there’s all these guys with guns and I’m gonna set off fireworks. But in that case, ’cause he is pissed off at all of us, like it was so [00:36:00] fucking chaotic for a minute. Um, but it was, it was an incredible thing to see how quickly people can deploy basically. Um, ’cause we aren’t like Chicago where like we’ve had a lot of activity here, but it’s been pretty quiet activity. Like, it’s like what happened here? It’s like you and your neighbors know about it and maybe 20 people showed up from your neighborhood rapid response. But like, they’re not the kinds of stories that. They’re not landing on rooftops, they’re not showing up with a hundred cars and calling people away. They’re hauling one person at a time away. And you hear about it here and there, but it’s been very quiet, unlike Chicago. Um, and so to have it given that, especially to have it show up just in your alley was like really, really insane. Um, so anyway, so it all, fortunately the, the police HSI, everybody left with nothing. They did not carry our neighbors away. They did not have any, any result of this warrant that we could tell. But of course, we’re not gonna know. Another [00:37:00] theme of this is how, how hard it is for good information to be resilient in a moment like this, right? That’s a whole other theme. And that, that’s one that gets me kinda riled up when people start after the fact or during the fact really kind of shouting out almost things that are wrong. Like the, the call that went out. For people to come. Said there were six cars in my alley with Texas plates, but I was very clear, there are six cars in my alley. One of them has Texas plates, right? So it’s like, that kind of stuff is a little spooky, but here’s what happened. So at the end it was all over. Our neighbors were able to pop out, wave at everybody, thank everybody. They had been handcuffed this family, um, in their living room while HSI figured out if they were citizens. And, um, what had what the whistles meant in this case was that they knew people were all over around the house. And that was, I’m sure, a level of comfort to know that like something’s happening out there. And then we learned later that there was an immigrant family down the block in the [00:38:00] other direction, across kind of a thoroughfare that we’re on the intersection of who heard the whistles and knew like, let’s stay in the house. There’s a lot going on out there. I dunno what it is, but now I hear whistles. Let’s stay in the house. And, um, and so it was quite a, quite a thing. Family Activism and Signal Setup Jeff: And what I kind of realized afterwards. Was we started this year. My family, my in-laws, my in-laws especially, were very, they’re, they’re, they’re very, um, active. They do kind of activist work, but it’s very like, um, service oriented. But they’ll go to an anti-war protest. They’ll go, you know, they’ll do the thing. They’re, they’re lovely people. And my father-in-law, especially at the beginning of the year, I was like, I don’t know what’s coming. Um, I hear that it’s good for everyone to have signal if we wanna be able to communicate to each other. So I wanna learn how to use signal. And so I helped him, my mother-in-law set it up. I created kind of a family group for Signal and everyone was setting up signal, right? Like at that point, not knowing what was gonna come. It wasn’t even January 20th yet. Unexpected End of Year Incident Jeff: And I wrapped up my year activating a signal network for rapid response because I [00:39:00] had masked people in my alley with guns refusing to identify themselves driving cars from out of state. That is insane. And I was like, that looks pretty tight. Season wrap up. Like, what the fuck? Because I kind of had gotten to the point, I guess prior to when ICE got here in, in the first place, I’d gotten to the point where I’m like, I don’t even really think about Signal anymore. Um, but then they came here and it, and it popped up. So that’s what, that’s what happened in my alley. Um, at the end of the year. Christina: And, and, and, and, and, and I mean, and, and, and you said, you said your neighbors are okay. Speculations and Concerns Christina: I mean, do, do you know anything more about like, like what, what happened or like what the, what the situation was? Jeff: I don’t know anymore. And that’s where I’m like a little cautious because since it was like a warrant for something, it was a narcotics warrant, right? Like, I, I have no idea what happened there. I don’t know. I can, I can only speculate. Um, but I know that the, the [00:40:00] name on that warrant was not someone that lives there. Um, so I can tell you that ’cause I saw the warrant. Um, and, and that’s the most I really feel comfortable saying. Christina: Fair enough. Yeah. I, I, I, I, yeah. I’m not, I’m not trying to like, Jeff: No, I get it. I get it. That’s me actually. Dealing with Law Enforcement Jeff: I’ve been wrestling with like, how much, even on the, I kind of like was asking people to be cautious, even on the signal, because they were sharing details about the warrant. I was like, Hey, details in a warrant. Do not share those, because that sticks to people. And like the details in the warrant were just like, no, we’re not gonna do this. Even when the guy read me the warrant, I was like, are you serious about that? He’s like, oh man, for sure. Okay, sounds good. Let’s, we’ll talk in an hour when you’re all done and you don’t have anything. Like I, I’ve been down this road before. I was a reporter for a long time, like I watched The Wire. Um, Christina: exactly. I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say the, the sort of reporting I did, like, yeah, I watched the Wire. Um, so would be Jeff: I said that to the guy. I didn’t say I watched the, yeah, I didn’t say I watched The Wire to the guy, but I was like, he [00:41:00] kept gaslighting us and I was like, come on man. Like you and I we’re smart people, you and I, and that was me being generous. But like, we’re smart people. You and I like, we know this thing you’re saying. It’s like, it’s totally not the case. Like when I asked him. The airport PD guy. What’s up with the cars with Texas plates and no plates and vanity plates? I don’t know, I don’t coordinate with those guys. I was like, okay, that’s weird. ’cause like here you are and they’re walking all around you. Surely you coordinated with them enough to get them here. It was just like, what the fuck? Just so much gaslighting that I won’t even get into, but it was just nonstop. But I was so proud watching my neighbors when the rapid responsible showed up. It was a, there’s always like some people in those situations where I, I, I get pretty activated around lack of discipline and I understand how that happens. But having been in like really super high stakes situations where people could, and who this was one, right? Like I don’t, I don’t react well internally to people who I feel like are working out something that’s theirs. Um, [00:42:00] and at the same time, how do we know how to process this, right? Like, I don’t, we, it was something incredible to watch Mask men and one masked woman walking up and down my alley, bumping past me with guns, with masks, with no idea, with no badges, refusing to pro produce any saying, why does it matter anyhow, saying how much threat they’re under, seeing how they get followed, like just, it was, it was an incredible thing. I had my reaction, but my reaction was based on wiring, based on really intense, unusual experiences. Um, other people, this is new to them. This kind of thing is new to me too, but, so anyway, I, I just like, I saved that. I didn’t even tell you guys when it happened. I’m like, I’ll just tell them on the podcast. ’cause Christina: yeah, no, I mean, that’s, that’s wild. I mean, like, and it’s just, it’s just, well, and, and it’s, I don’t know, it’s so dystopic, right? Like, it’s such a, like a, a terrible like thing to like have to like witness part of, right? Because like, look, yeah, there are going to be circumstances when maybe like, you know, Homeland Security or somebody else, like really actually does need to be involved and, you know, [00:43:00] um, you know, at your neighbor’s house. And like, that’s unfortunate, right? But like, there, there are real circumstances where that could be a case. Like I, I, I, I, I mentioned the, the Americans earlier, that was like, based Jeff: I need to watch that. Christina: It’s a great show. But, but the, the, the, uh, a former CIA agent was one of the, the, the, the creators. But the, um, the idea came to like, uh, one of the showrunners basically, he read an article, I think in the New Yorker or something about a, a family that like seemed like, just like the perfect, like normal family next door. And like the kids came home from school one day and the parents had been picked up because it turns out that they had been Russian spies living in the United States for like 20 years. And like, they were like actual Russian spies. And, and then that kind of like went into, okay, well, well, well, what happens then? Like, what happens to that family and, and what happens to get to that point? Like, what happens? Like if your neighbors are those things, right? And so there are those like very much like stranger than fiction. Like, like things, right? But in most cases, that’s not the circumstance. And, and certainly the way that like all this has been handled and the way that they’re doing all of this treat things for, [00:44:00] you know, like whatever the warrants were for whatever the situations are where they’re like, okay, now we’re gonna bring all these other groups in. We’re not going to have any due process at all, and we’re not going to, to bother with any sort of thing of humanity at all and then freak everybody else out, like is just, you know, then, and then it puts you like, as, as the neighbor, like in this position where you’re like, okay, well how do we get the word out? How do we help, how do we, you know, make sure that if’s something, is that if this is something that you know, isn’t what we, what we think that it is or whatever, that we can make sure that they’re not going to be. ’cause we see all the reports all the time. I mean, US citizens are getting arrested for, Jeff: Yeah, totally. Christina: the wrong way, Jeff: Oh yeah, we had a, we had a woman here probably, I think she was like in her sixties, and she walked out of her house ’cause there was something happening across the street. And in moments she was in the car, she was gone. Her husband didn’t know where she was. She was released later that day. Like we’ve had a lot of stories like that. And so that was stressful too, going in, right? Like when my partner and I went, went up to talk to this guy, I, I left down the alley to take pictures, but I [00:45:00] was like looking over my shoulder constantly. ’cause she and I have talked about how, like, can you imagine if one of us was taken and we didn’t know? And I was like, oh, we are in a situation right now where no way can I say, there’s no chance one of us will be taken. Like, no way. And you know, the longer you’re there, the more you push it a little bit, you know, not push it like physically or something, but just like push it a little more people out front. Someone kicked an ice car in, in an HSI car and got like pepper sprayed or whatever. Um, Christina: and it’s, and it’s like, don’t do that. Like, don’t like, Jeff: Well, it’s funny because, it’s funny because that per I, this is, I, I know there are people listening who will think I’m such an asshole for this, but I, to I, I feel zero apologetic for it. Reflections on Responsibility Jeff: So I am, I’m not like a huge fan, like kick the car when there’s a family that we don’t know how they’re doing and these people are around, like, don’t escalate in that way with these people. Don’t set off fireworks behind the guys that have their fingers resting near triggers. Like you Christina: That’s what I’m saying. That, that, yeah. Jeff: yeah, you just don’t do that. Uh, but here’s the part that makes me sound like an asshole and, and I don’t mind at all. [00:46:00] Um, they were, they were the only person that was pepper sprayed. And, and it was this, you know, certain people that come from outside the neighborhood. It was this very dramatic thing, whatever they pepper spray, you know, whatever. And I was like, what, what happened? They kicked the car. I was like, eh, I’m going in like, I mean like, yeah, you got pepper spray because you kicked the car. I assume you were in for that. Like you signed just like the guy with the mask who’s worried about being docked. He signed up for this dude. Christina: I was gonna say, you, you, you, you signed up for this, you, you, you, you’ve signed up because you saw Christina O’s you know, like ridiculous, like, you know, like, come, come join Ice, you know, like, like, you know, freaking social media, you know, posts or whatever, like there ads you’re doing like, yeah. Like you, you know exactly what you’re doing, so fuck off. I don’t, yeah, I have zero. Jeff: I I said you signed up for this. I did not sign up for this. I said you signed up for all of it, dude. Like you Christina: Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, honestly, well, well look, you know, it’s the same thing like the military, frankly, like, you know, like in the, in, in the seventies and stuff, and we saw, you know, more of it then, like, I’m not saying that it was like the, the right or like nice or like humane thing to spit in the, in their faces. [00:47:00] Right. But like. Especially after the draft was gone. Like, you sign up for that shit, Jeff: It’s a tough man. I, I had that, I, that experience throughout the Iraq war where. I knew. I mean, there’s the economic draft. There’s all right, there’s all these reasons people end up in war. But at the end of the day, when I am walking around a city I love, and other Americans are there in armor and Humvees and they have destroyed a city, I feel like this is what you signed up for. It’s not what you signed up for, but it is literally what you signed. Same with police. It’s a little bit Christina: that’s Jeff: I totally respect the trauma. I respect that you’re in situations where Christina: that’s real. No. Jeff: your values. Like I Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and that, that is real. And, and to your point, there might be like, like economic scenarios, drafts and other scenarios where like you’re like, well, I had a choice, but I didn’t have a choice. Okay, but you knew that this was a trade off. Like you knew that this was a thing that comes with, with, with the territory. If it comes with adulation, but it comes with the bad stuff too. Right. Jeff: And if you’re killing people, I don’t feel super bad about saying that. I feel super bad for you for having to live with that [00:48:00] fact. But like I don’t feel bad for saying, Hey man, Christina: well, I mean, like, and, and it’s a Jeff: have said no. Christina: and it’s a completely different like thing. I’m not even trying to categorize it the same way. ’cause it’s, it’s not. But like, just, just like in, in my life, you know, people oftentimes will like, yell at me about stuff that they don’t like, about, like the companies like that I work for. And you know, what I, I’m, I’m part of my job is to kind of be a public face for, for those things. And that means that I get yelled at and that’s okay. And like that, that I, I quite literally knew that I signed up for that. Does that mean that I always appreciate it? That is, does that mean that I don’t get annoyed sometimes? Does that mean that I like being like tarred and feathered with like mistakes or decisions that like, I had nothing to do with Absolutely not right. But like, that’s quite literally part of my job. So, you know, it, it, it is. So I can’t like turn around and be like, oh, well, you know, you can’t, you know, like. You know, say, say this to me, or whatever. Right. Um, but, and, and again, I realize it’s a completely different scale of things. I’m not in any way trying to equate the, the, the, the two [00:49:00] scenarios, Jeff: No, but it’s, I mean, it is, yeah, Christina: but all of us, but all of us, we have jobs and we do things and like in a case like this, like if you work for those agencies, right. Especially right now, and like I recognize and I can be sympathetic that you may not have signed up. Under these circumstances. Having said that, I will say that if you signed up in the last eight years, you knew that these were things that were going in a certain direction, right? Um, I, I, I, I, I will, I will further say that like I, I’m not gonna say that like every single person is involved, but I will say like in the last eight years, you’ve, you’ve seen which way the wind was going and, and, and, and, and that’s okay. You can make that decision and, and like, I’m not gonna judge you or your character as a person for that decision. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m not. ’cause we all have to make decisions about where we work. Having said that, that just also means like what we’ve been saying, you’re gonna have to deal with some shit. You’re gonna deal with people recording your face. You’re gonna have to deal with people being angry with you. You’re gonna have to deal with, to your point, people kicking the cop car. And if that’s all that happens and like, and, and, and, and it’s not gonna lead to another escalation point, that’s fine. I, I’m with you. I’m like, okay, whatever. I will [00:50:00] say though, like I do sometimes get like annoyed with that. ’cause I’m like, okay, this didn’t help anything. And you potentially put somebody who, you know, could have been in harm’s way, Jeff: I mean, if you have enough people to turn a car over, I’m all for it. But I No, I agree. I feel like, and, and with the stuff around making a choice or sign up for it, to me it’s like anything in life you’re saying yes until you say no. And, and so it, when I was standing there, we were all standing there trying to understand this person or help him understand us or even his own position as we see it. He’s saying yes every second. He is not saying yo no. In that moment. Right. Like, so that’s the other piece is like, I, I don’t mean like what’s wrong with you even for signing up. I do in this case, but like when I think about the military stuff, like I have families in the military, family who are police. Like I understand what it means to say I didn’t sign up for this. I get it like on some level, right? But there’s a point at which you always have the option of saying no, and, and there’s a point at which things get to a certain place. And that is where it becomes really [00:51:00] important to either say no or say I have signed up for this. You just signed up for it. Like Christina: no, I, well, I was Jeff: waking up this morning and putting that Kevlar vest on, you signed up again. Christina: No. A, a, a. Absolutely. And that’s the thing, right? That that’s why like, I feel like, yeah, don’t use that excuse. Well, I, I didn’t sign up for this. No, but you did. And that means you have to eat the shit right now, right? Like, it means that this is the shit sandwich and you have to eat it. And that doesn’t mean that, like I’m saying, that you have to like, aate yourself or you have to like flagellate yourself. Sorry that you have to wrong. Not Jeff: way. I think you shouldn’t do any of those things in this Christina: right? It doesn’t mean you need, you need to self Jeff: to work. Christina: does doesn’t mean that you need to, you know, um, like, uh, I’m not, I’m not even asking you like, quit your job, right? Because that’s. That’s really complicated and, and not, like, I I, I’m not gonna, I’m not, a lot of people are go, well, I would just quit my job in a second. Well, I’m glad that like, you have the means to be able to just do that. Like, you’re very lucky that you have the ability to just walk away and that you, that you are, are, are comfortable with the consequences of that. Like that’s, and I mean that genuinely, right? Like, I think that that is, [00:52:00] but I also think that that’s such an easy thing to say, oh, well I would never be in this position. Well, you might not be. And there are a lot of positions that like, I can say I would never be in. But I can also say there have been positions where like, you know, you’re at a job and you’re doing things and you’re like, I don’t love this. And you have to get that point where like, we each have our own lines. This is either I’m, I’m, I’m done and I’m going to, and I have enough of a safety net, or I have enough other things going on, or I, I feel, you know, secure enough, or I just can’t go on any further, whatever the case may be, that I can walk away. That’s, that’s great if you can do that. But if you’re not, if you’re not in a place where you can do that, then yeah, you have to deal with like the fallout, which can mean people being mean to you. People like, you know, filming your face, people calling you a piece of shit, people, you know, spitting at you, people like turning your car over or kicking it or whatever. Right. People yelling at you and being like, you know, work criminal, like, that’s just gonna be part of it, right? Like, that’s just, that’s just part of it. And then that needs to go into your overall, you know, like calculation of is this a place that I wanna continue [00:53:00] to work? Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Christina: I wanna continue to do? Jeff: I feel like, um, if I could have established ground rules, having had this experience with this one guy in particular who is with Homeland Security invest, I would’ve said, all right, here’s, here’s the deal. We’re gonna, we’re gonna have a conversation, but I’m gonna promise not to assume you’re rotten to the court. If you can promise me you won’t wine. Christina: Yeah, exactly. That, that, that, that, that, that, that’s the biggest thing, right? Yeah. ’cause because I feel like Jeff: I’m asking. A lot less of you than I’m offering. Christina: Absolutely. I will treat you with, you know, have a respectful conversation and I will not make these like worst case assumptions. But you have to not bitch about it. Yeah, exactly. Well, and, and, and, and, well, I didn’t, I didn’t wanna do this. Okay. But you’re here and, and, and, and you, and you are doing this. So it’s great that you didn’t want to, but it’s great that you feel bad about this. No one cares like that. That doesn’t matter to Jeff: ’cause here you are. Christina: You’re No, that doesn’t matter To the family that’s here. That doesn’t matter to anything else. I’m just following orders. Okay. Well, you know what? A lot of people said that, and like Jeff: it’s a problem. I know, exactly. One guy was like, we don’t send people to concentration camps. I was like, well, there is [00:54:00] a continuum. Christina: do we do, do I mean, but, but, but come on. I mean, some of those detention centers. Jeff: And some of those things are kinda like concentration camps. I, I, you know. Christina: I kind of, Jeff: Yeah. I could actually couldn’t believe he said that. He said that to my, to my wife. I was like, wow, you just said that. Holy shit. Yeah. So you’re thinking about that, Christina: you are right, right. So, so, so you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re gonna compare, like okay, because have you been to those facilities? Because I’m not saying that they are, I’m not saying that it’s the same as what the camps were, but, um, you know, uh, you also couldn’t pull off with what the camps are. I would hope in the United States of America, although who fucking Jeff: But you can send ’em somewhere else where they Christina: can send them somewhere else. I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you can send ’em to El Salvador Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. We’ve figured out, uh, we’ve figured out all kinds of ways over the years. Oh. Um. Gratitude for Signal Jeff: The most hilarious, uh, uh, transition ever is the one we’re about to make, which is into GrAPPtitude. I guess I’m grateful for Signal. Um, Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I actually, it’s, it’s funny, I, I get annoyed with them a little bit, um, as a [00:55:00] company, but I did just pay for, ’cause they just introduced like their, their, their backups schemes or whatever for, for iOS where like you can pay for cloud backup so that, um, if you’re restoring a new phone. You don’t have to do the, the current thing you have to do now where you have to like have the two phones next to one another, like removing phones and like it transfer alls your messages over. And, and it does that because it doesn’t wanna use iCloud, which I totally get and I respect. Now, apparently they have their own like backup kind of like system so you can, you know, do that and also see things with cloud. And so it’s like, it’s like two or $3 a month, it’s like $36 a year. So I went Jeff: That’s good. I didn’t know that was a thing. Christina: Yeah, it’s a thing as of like last month. Um, so it’s, it’s a new thing. Um, and, and I’m happy to do it. The only thing I get annoyed at with Signal, and this is just such a petty, but like me thing, is like, they go on and on about how, oh, well we’re a nonprofit and we’re this, and we’re that. And I’m like, okay, you are, but you pay, you know, relatively high salaries, which is great. I’m not saying that you Jeff: Yeah, Christina: Um, and, and, and you have like the large s from like several, like, you [00:56:00] know, like. Deck of billionaires. And so, you know, uh, you know, people who have like more than $10 billion or whatever, whatever, whatever the term is, you know, who, who who’ve given you, you know, grants and whatnot. And, and then you, you know, when you then like cry poverty to me, like your Wikipedia, like, I have the same problem that I have with Wikipedia, which is like, I can look at your, you know, um, your annual budget things. I see how much your, your, your stuff makes, I see what your revenue, what, what your stuff is. And I’m not saying that you don’t deserve it, but I am saying don’t cry poor to me, right? Like, there are actual nonprofits and you know this far better than, than I do, but like, who really do struggle for every grant Jeff: Oh my God. Yeah, for Christina: right? And then, then you, Jeff: But their appeal uses the same language. Christina: likers, right? And, and, and then you have Wikipedia, you know, pulling up the, the, the big, you know, half page banner things like, oh, you know, I need this. The only thing annoys me is the signal. I’m like, okay, well I have now paid you, I now pay you $36 a year. Please don’t put up the donate thing. Because, because, because I’m, I’m, I’m, I, I have, [00:57:00] uh, I promise you that like the, the, the, you know, um, you know, 600 megabytes or or six gigabytes, whoever knows how much it is, the very small amount of cloud storage that I’m using, you know, and, and you give me a certain amount, I, I promise you that you are still making money off of this, which is why you’re charging it that way. Right? So, like, don’t, Jeff: yeah. Christina: like, can, can you just cut out the, the, the, the e begging, like popups when I’ve already paid you, Jeff: The the full half page, I just wanna learn about the Corn Palace, dude. Christina: Right, exactly. I’m like, I’m, I’m, I’m like, I’m like, okay, stop Wikipedia. ’cause A, I’m never gonna give you a dime. Um, I, I, you, you, you are rich enough and you don’t need my money. And I, I’m not, I’m not going to, but, but, but b, like. I would much rather give it to like groups that like, can actually use my money. And that’s, that’s not to take, that’s not to say other can’t donate or whatever. It’s just like Jeff: Yeah. Christina: plenty of big corporate donors are already, they are good. They’re, they’re fine. Like, I promise you Wikipedia is completely fine. Um, uh, but, uh, and, and Signal is completely fine, but I’m happy to continue to, I will give them money, right? ’cause I’ll pay [00:58:00] for a service. I’m just like, please don’t, please don’t pull this. Like, oh, well, we’re just like a poor, underfunded startup. I’m like, but you’re not. But you’re Jeff: being used by such a ma. I mean, the number of people in these groups that I see joining Signal is unreal. I mean, it’s just like, it’s a constant flood every day here on the groups I’m in, like, okay, you guys are doing a pretty good right now, and I, especially if you can now charge service fee, Christina: I mean, if you can, I mean, I mean obviously, you know, they’re, they’re hard Costco up every time they have people join, you know? Um, so, so, so like, but, but like, but Jeff: But it’s like they’re becoming, it’s like they’re not omnipotent obviously at this point, but like you do, it’s like, okay, you’re on your way to being one of those services that so many people use that we can’t do without it anymore. Christina: Well, not only that, but like, you know, and, and this is why they’ve gotten, like, however, you know, many, you know, uh, millions, um, you know, from, um, like the WhatsApp guy and some other people, it’s like, you know, this is, it’s, it’s a, it’s a really good tax write off for Jeff: Yeah, yeah, Christina: wealthy. And in a way that also helps them [00:59:00] protect their own conversation logs. Jeff: yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Christina: I don’t know, man. Like if, if, if, if I were somebody trying to hide things from the SEC or someone else, or, or, or, you know, my, my, my, my, one of my, my wives or whatever, like, I would be very much, or I don’t know, Pete, Pete, hedge man. Like if I’m, if I, I’m like, if I’m, you know, the, the, the Secretary of Defense, I don’t know. There were like a whole lot of situations where I’d be like, yeah, I don’t know, maybe I should throw these guys, you know, a few bills. Jeff: Yeah. Right, right. Christina: I Jeff: Well, I’ll make signal. I guess I’ll just make, I’ll say it briefly. I was going to get into something boring. Tech Talk: Synology and Backup Solutions Jeff: I do have a feeling that talking about Synology now officially makes me like an old person. I think that’s where Synology has probably gotten, I don’t know. Christina: No. I mean, I think, I think, I think Synology is great. Yeah. Talk, talk about your Synology. Jeff: well, just that it, I mean, I’m, one of the things that I’m doing with it now that’s, uh, amazing. I’ve been trying to kind of, um, think about risk with our business for a while and, and especially thinking about it in terms of like our digital world and, and to be able to [01:00:00] completely back up our Google workspace, um, every night in a way that can keep as many snapshots as I want, um, knowing that it’s very unlikely that that data will ever be at risk and it’s also entirely possible. Um, and, and so getting to know kind of some of. I had not really worked with much of the functionality. I may have pretty much fucking pirated shit. Um, and, and, and had all of my, you know, digital like archive there and hadn’t done a lot of the smart stuff you can do with it. Um, and so anyway, I’m just starting to do that, but I, some of the backup stuff that’s there, I was like, oh, I should have been using this a long time ago. And I just appreciate, it’s a really easy to use system and it’s really like well done, well managed. Um, I, I’ve been really happy so I don’t have a lot of important stuff to say about it. Um, certainly not as important as, as how Signal has been in my life, but I have wanted to, um, redo this for a long time. It just took having a couple of real big external drives to dump my data off of my [01:01:00] Synology onto so I can reset it, which is its own terrifying and slow process. But Christina: it is, it is. But yeah, Synology is great and, and I, I’ve been using it for a long time and, and you know, yeah. Can you get a less expensive like system that is probably like, a little bit, like less hamstrung about what type of ram you use or what sort of types drives you use and whatnot. Yes, you can. Um, but the, the software is good. Um. Jeff: There’s not a lot of fussing. There’s not a lot of Christina: There’s not, which is the, which is the thing, right? Because if you don’t mind fussing, some people don’t, some people like to kind of do that. I don’t know. For a thing like this, like for, for like what I use this Synology for, I really do want it to be as appliance like as possible. Like I really don’t wanna futz around. Like sometimes it’s fun to do that, but like, for like data storage and like for rate arrays and whatnot, like, I really kind of don’t. Right? Um, Jeff: I don’t wanna wonder if I got it wrong Christina: yeah. Jeff: what would happen, you Christina: Well, no, totally right. And, and, and, and like, look, it, it is, you know, the, the thing then how do you back up your syn analog is its own complicated, uh, [01:02:00] thing. Um, but um, yeah, you know, you, from there you can kind of pick and choose, okay, what are the most important things to back up, right? Like, a lot of times, like Jeff: And that’s what’s what I’ve been able to do in redoing it, was have that kind of care. Right. So it’s, ’cause before it was like, I just dropped everything in there and that was like not a good situation. Christina: Right. Yeah. ’cause like, ’cause like for me, like, yeah, I would, I would miss like if my, my, my Plex stuff went away, but like, that’s not gonna be the thing that I need to be paying, you know, hundreds of dollars a month to like, ensure that I’m backing up in a cloud someplace. But it’s like, no, you know? But if I have like a, a, a few hundred gigabytes, uh, or, or maybe, you know, a terabyte or two of, of stuff that I wanna like, have, you know, and, you know, as, as offsite like in, in, you know, re glacier or whatever, some other kind of, you know, cloud like that, that, that’s, that’s a different scenario. So, you know, but just, just, just picking and choosing, you know, what you want. But yeah, it is great to just be able to have all of your stuff, you know, backed up and, Jeff: It’s also the reason I, it was my entryway into tail scale, which I’m grateful for ’cause Oh my God. Um, Christina: Yeah, tail skills. The [01:03:00] best tail skills the best. Jeff: All right. What about you? Christina: What about you? Alright, so my pick is update. So we’ve talked a, a number of times about, um, I, I, I’ll, I’ll put a link of it in the doc, it’s update app. Mac Updater Alternatives Christina: Um, so basically Mac Updater, which was an app that, that Brett and I both love and I think you liked it to was, um, as of January 1st, 2026, it is no longer getting any updates. Um, he did release kind of a standalone 3.5 version that will not, you know, he will not be kind of doing the manual things that he did anymore for apps, I guess, that have, you know, things like the Mac App store or, you know, in, um, like, uh, the, um, sparkle or some other things. Like it will still show those updates for now. But he’s not caching updates on his servers. He’s not doing the manual checks. Like there were a lot of things that, that Mac Updater did that made it expensive to run. And because he didn’t wanna sell, you know, sell it as a kind of a, a, a subscription service, um, that, um, like was, was kind of a, um. A problem [01:04:00] and, uh, not a problem. Sorry. Finding a way to make money was a problem for him. And so he basically, you know, version 3.5 is now kind of available to everyone. He did say that he basically, you know, like would be entertaining ideas of like licensing or selling, you know, the, the, the stuff to, to anyone. But I don’t think anybody really bit who, you know, would’ve been doing that in like a, um, a good way. So that, that’s unfortunate. Um, and so like, I, I think Brett did inquire about like how much it would cost to potentially, like, how much he was looking for. It was far more money than like, I was like, yeah, there, there’s no way. Um, like I, I wouldn’t be able to, uh, I don’t even think I would get a loan for the amount of money that, that it would’ve been. And, and even then like, okay, what’s the business plan and what’s not? And it’s like the only business plan that I see, unless you are somebody like an MDM, like a company like Jam or like some sort of other, like, you know, big enterprise management company. Um, I, I think the only way that you could make money on it. Would be to, you know, [01:05:00] charge more. And, and, and if you’re gonna charge like a, a, a yearly, you know, or, or monthly fee or whatever, obviously people are gonna be annoyed. But I would’ve been happy to continue to pay. I would’ve paid $50 a year without, without question to have Mac data or work. I would’ve very happily done it. And I, and I think that a lot of people would have, but I also respect and, and understand his decision. Okay. The problem with this is this now leaves updater apps in a bit of a lurch. Okay? So how do I update, you know, my applications? And there are a few things that have been out there that have, that have kind of, you know, um, popped up. The one that I found that is the most promising so far is called Update. I think it used to be called something else, but it is at U-P-D-A-T-E-S-T, uh, app. And it’s basically, um, how it builds itself. It’s still in beta right now, so you can try it out, um, uh, you know, either, uh, for, for, for trial or you can, you know, um, buy it. I went ahead and bought it, um, after I, I, I did the trial for, um, a bit of time and, um, it basically works with Homebrew, [01:06:00] the Mac App store, sparkle Electron, and GitHub releases. And so, um, it’s, it’s one interface. It doesn’t get everything that, um. The other, uh, like the Mac updater got, but it gets a lot of stuff. Um, it it, this used to be called Cly, which was kind of basically like a brew updated based thing. But what I like about this is a few things. One is in some cases it’s kind of like a visual home brew way. Like if you’ve, if you’ve installed apps with Home Brew, you can see that and you can use the Home brew updating engine to go ahead and, and update that way. The second thing is, um, if you want to move applications from how you’ve installed them into being. Managed and, and, and run by Homebrew. You can do that, which is great ’cause that way you can then just update things from the command line if you want to. Um, you, you can move things that way too. Um, if you have the, the, the, the Homebrew, M-A-S-C-L-I, um, extension installed, it can also handle your, your Mac app store updates and show you that. And then of course, it, it, it does things, you know, coming from, from Sparkle and whatnot. [01:07:00] Um, and, um, he, uh, so, so this is, it’s still in beta. Um, they’re pretty upfront about that. Um, but, but they’re, they’re offering the pay licenses because it’s gonna, you know, support, ongoing development. Um, you can get it at a, at a lower price. And then, you know, the feedback influences what they’re building next. And so, um, this guy’s been really active on Reddit. Um, there’ve been a lot of, um, updates that are, uh, or a lot of frequent updates just in the last couple of weeks that I’ve used it. It is, um, it’s priced really well. It’s $10, um, one time purchase, no subscriptions, no renewals. Again, I don’t know how long that’s gonna last, but Jeff: say, yeah. Christina: The, the good thing here is he’s not maintaining his own servers like the other guy was. So he’s basically just going based on off of sources that other things are doing. And so it’s a little bit of less of a heavy lift. But I also, I, you know, I, I love this sort of thing. I’m also kind of like, okay, you know, software has ongoing development costs, especially now, but the, the, it’s $10 for, for three Max at once. It, it’s, it’s $20 for, for 10 Max at once. I bought the, the [01:08:00] household license just because I was like, I’ll just, I’ll drop ’em 20 bucks. Um, and even though I only have three Max, um, but you know, that way I, I can, you know, help support that a little bit more. Um, but yeah, but there’s a, but there’s a free trial. Um, I, I like it. Um, and, and he also has a 30 day money back guarantee, so, um, I, um, I don’t know who this guy is. I, I’ve never met him. Um, but um, I am, I’m happy with update and, um, it will never be as good as, you know, the, uh, my beloved, you know, Mac updater, which I was like. Such a huge fan of, but Jeff: So good. But man, I, I have in the course of you describing this app, I’m now have it open on the free trial and slick Christina: It is very slick. It is very slick. Um, I, I, I like it a lot. I also like how you can just kind of view like the, the, like your, your home brew stuff too. There’s another app called a Cork app, which is you can compile yourself for free, or it’s, um, um, maybe it’s called Coly, but it’s, [01:09:00] uh, for, for Mac os basically like a, like a home brew. Um, manager is Cork Mac Do app. Is, is, is the, is the URL and that does some similar things too, where you can update or even migrate applications. From not being installed by Homebrew to being maintained by, like, managed by Homebrew. So you can do updates that way. Um, but that’s basically just kind of a gooey for, for, for, for home brew, for anybody who’s interested in that. And, and it’s, and it’s pretty inexpensive as, as well. Um, but it, it, it’s like, it’s like 25 pounds or whatever. So, um, this is, uh, update is cheaper than that, but it does some of the, some of the same things. Um, and so, um, I, uh, anyway, um, like I said, the, the guy is, the guy is pretty active on, um, on Reddit. Um, and, uh, and he’s, uh, you know, it’s, it’s a pretty privacy respecting app. You can actually install it using Homebrew. Um, but uh, yeah, it’s, it’s pretty cool. Jeff: That’s awesome. Cool. I’m glad to know. [01:10:00] Alright, well by golly we did another one. Christina: We did another one. All right. Conclusion and Well Wishes Christina: Well, happy, uh, happy 2026. Um, hope that the year goes, goes better for, for, for all of us out there. And, uh, you know, um, that’s, that’s, that’s with your neighbors. I hope everything, you know, works out with that situation as, as well as it can, you know. Jeff: Me too. Good God. Yeah. All right. Well get some sleep world. Christina: Yes. Get some sleep.

Brett and Christina host an OG episode. Christina talks about her upcoming spinal surgery and navigating insurance hassles. Brett talks about his sleep issues, project progress, and coding routines. They dive into the complexities of USB-C cables, from volts to data rates. And TV’s just ‘okay’ now, except for some softcore gay porn. Kagi search saves the day. Happy holidays — and get some sleep. Sponsor Copilot Money can help you take control of your finances. Get a fresh start with your money for 2026 with 26% off when you visit try.copilot.money/overtired and use code OVERTIRED. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Show Links CaberQu BLE cable tester Umami Analytics Plausible Analytics Kagi The Comfortable Problem of Mid TV – The New York Times Fallout Heated Rivalry (TV Series 2025– ) – IMDb Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Greetings 00:40 Christina’s Health Update 05:05 Brett’s Sleep and Work Routine 12:19 USB-C Cable Confusion 22:03 Sponsor Break: Shopify 24:26 Sponsor Break: Copilot Money 26:57 Exploring Rocket Money and Web Interfaces 27:21 Discovering Umami Analytics 28:06 Nostalgia for Mint and Fever 28:44 The Decline of RSS and Google Reader 31:45 Switching to Kagi Search Engine 32:33 The Rise of AI-Generated Content 40:46 TV Shows: Is TV Just Okay Now? 47:24 The Cultural Phenomenon of Heated Rivalry 52:50 Wrapping Up and Holiday Wishes Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Universal Serial Bitching Introduction and Greetings [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, you’re listening to Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra, and it’s just me and Christina Warren this morning. How you doing, Christina? Christina: Doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Yeah. This is the, this is the OG Overtired configuration. Brett: right back to basics. Um, Christina: We do miss you Jeff, though. Ho, ho, ho. Hope that Jeff is having a great holiday with his family. Brett: we’ll have to have some, uh, gratuitous Wiki K hole that you go down just to, to commemorate the olden days. Um, so yeah, let’s, uh, let’s, let’s do a quick check-in. Christina’s Health Update Brett: Um, I’m curious about your health and all of the wildness that’s going on with your spine and whatnot. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, same. I wanna hear about you too. Um, so, uh, Christina’s cervical spine update, as it were. Um, I am [00:01:00] still waiting to, as we’re recording this, which is like. Uh, three days before Christmas, uh, I’m still waiting to hear from the, uh, hospital to see if I can, when I can get scheduled. Um, insurance has sort of been a pain in the ass, so when I talked to them last week, they were like, we sent them some paperwork. We’re still waiting for some things back then. I called the insurance company and the, the, uh, like my insurance is like, has like an intermediary service that is supposed to contact the insurance company on your behalf and that person, but like, I can’t contact them directly. And then that person was like, oh, you don’t need pre-authorization. Go ahead and schedule the surgery. And I’m like, this doesn’t feel right. Um, so, but, but we, we went ahead and we called back the, you know, the, the surgeon, um, his office and they were very nice and we were like. They say that we can get on the books. So I don’t know when that will be. I’m hoping that it will be, you know, like the first week of January, um, or, or, or thereabouts. Um, but I don’t know. Um, [00:02:00] so I am still kind of in this like limbo stage where I don’t know exactly when I’m gonna have the surgery, except hopefully soon. And, um, and, and for anyone who hasn’t caught up, I, uh, I have a bulging disc on C seven on my cervical spine, and I’m going to get a, um, artificial disc replacement. Um, so they’re gonna take out the, you know, bulging bone and all that and put in, uh, some synthetic piece and then hopefully that will immediately relieve the, the pain that has been primarily through the left side of, uh, my arm and my shoulder, um, uh, down through my fingers. But it’s been on my right side a little bit too. So hopefully when that is done, it’ll be a relatively short recovery. Um, I’ll have an early scar and um, I will be, you know, not. Uh, the pain right now, like the levels aren’t terrible, but I’m pretty numb, uh, on my, my, my left arm, my, my right arm, um, uh, or right fingers I guess too, but, but really it’s, it’s, uh, the, the, the left side [00:03:00] that’s the worst. And traveling. Um, I’m, I’m in Atlanta with my family right now and, you know, kind of doing other things is just not, it’s not great. So, um, hopefully I’ll be getting surgery sooner rather than later. But obviously all that stuff does impact your mental health too, when you’re in pain and, and you, you know, are freaked out too about, you know, like, even though like they do, you know, it, it’s not an uncommon surgery and, and it, and it should be fine, but you know, there’s always these things in the back of your mind. You’re like, okay, well what if something goes wrong or whatever. So I’m just, I’m looking forward to, um, you know, light at the end of the tunnel, but um, still kind of in a holding pattern with that. So Brett: Wow. So that scar’s, that scar’s gonna be on your throat. Christina: Yeah, Brett: Wow. Christina: yeah. Like probably like. No, not really. I’m, I mean, I’m hoping that it’ll be, uh, like no, it really won’t be at all. Brett: I, I, I would like to have it. I can understand why you wouldn’t. Christina: yeah, I mean, you know, I will obviously, you know, uh, hopefully it’ll be like low enough to be [00:04:00] primarily covered by shirts or other things, although, who knows? ’cause I do like to wear like, lower cut things sometimes. I don’t know. It, it’ll hopefully, you Brett: I heard chokers are coming back. Christina: Yeah, I don’t, unfortunately. I think it’s gonna be too, uh, low for that. Brett: Okay. Christina: uh, like, it, it’s gonna be, I think like it might hit against my laryn is, is what they say. That’s the other thing too. I might have, you know, some hoarseness after, won’t we permanent? Um, you know, knock on wood. Um, Brett: go on Etsy, you can get, um, they’re for BDSM, they’re like neck, uh, they hold your chin up. They’re like posture enhancers. Uh, but they sell them within leather with like corset straps. ’cause they’re like A-B-D-S-M accessory. That would work. Christina: No, no. Not even once. Uh, not even once. I mean, look, a good group of people who wanna do that, uh, I I will not be wearing a collar of any sort of that sort of thing. Uh, I, I, I don’t, I don’t really wanna, wanna be part [00:05:00] of, uh, one of that, those types of, you know, uh, Harlequin romance novels. , Brett’s Sleep and Work Routine Brett: All right, well, I will go ahead and check in. Um, I, I’m sleeping really well for like two days at a time, and then I’ll have. A string of like five or six hours of sleep, which isn’t nothing. Um, but it’s not quite enough for me to not feel tired all the time. And two nights of sleep is not enough for me to catch up on sleep. And, um, so I’m kind of, this has been going on for like a year though, so it’s, I’m just kind of, I’m used to it and I’ve learned to operate pretty well on six or seven hours of sleep, even though historically like I need eight and a half. Um, but I’m doing okay and I get up about four every morning and I start coding and I usually code from like four to noon, so an eight [00:06:00] hour workday, uh, with a breakfast somewhere in there. And, um, I’ve made really good progress. Marked is, as far as I can tell, ready to go wide with the beta. Um. I think I’ve solved every bug that’s been reported so far. I only have about a hundred testers right now, um, but I’m gonna open it up, uh, try to get maybe a thousand testers for a couple weeks and then go for a live release. The biggest thing that I’m running into is problems with getting the, like free trial and the purchase mechanisms working, which is the exact same thing that’s holding up NV Ultra right now. Um, so if I can figure it out for Mark, I can port it to NV Ultra. I can have two apps out there making money, hopefully never have to get a job again. Um, I’m teamed up right now with Dan Peterson, formerly of One Password. Um, and we’re [00:07:00] working on some iOS apps and. And, uh, apex. My, my, all my Universal markdown processor is, it’s coming along really well. I’ve, I’ve put it out there. Um, I’ve talked to John Gruber a little bit about it. He’s gonna give it more of a workout and get back to me. Um, but I think, I think it’s getting to a point where I would be comfortable integrating it into Mark and even talking to some other, uh, apps about using it as their default processor, um, and kind of alleviating some of the issues people run into with, uh, differences in syntax. Um, I. I, I, I talked to Devon, think, uh, Eric from Devon think about using it. ’cause they use multi markdown right now, uh, which has a lot of cool features, but is not [00:08:00] really in sync with what most of the web is using these days. Um, so I talked to them about it and they’re like, oh, we had the exact same idea and we’re almost done with our own universal processor. Um, and theirs is gonna output like RTF and things that I don’t need apex to do. ’cause you can just pipe apex into panoc and do everything you need. So anyway, I’m, I’m tired. I’m, I’m in good spirits. I. I’m dealing fine with winter. My, I’m alone on Christmas, which is gonna be weird. Um, my family’s outta town. Elle is house sitting I’ll, I’ll go visit Elle, but most of the day I’m gonna be like by myself on Christmas and I don’t drink anymore. And I, I don’t, I don’t know how that’s gonna go yet. Um, initially I thought, oh, that’s fine. I like being alone. But then, [00:09:00] then the idea of like, not having anyone to talk to you on Christmas day started to feel a little depressing. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, um, hopefully, um, when, when will, uh, when will I’ll be back from, from house sitting. How long is, uh, are, are they going to be Brett: I think. I think the people, the, the house owners come back Thursday or Friday. Christina: Okay. Brett: Then we’re gonna take off and go up to Minneapolis to hang out with her family for a weekend. So, I don’t know. It’ll, it’s gonna be fine. It’s gonna be fine. We’re gonna like cook on Christmas Eve and, and have leftovers on Christmas day. It’ll be fine. Christina: Yeah, yeah. Well, but, but it, but, but that is weird. Like, I’m sure like to be, you know, not, not, not, not with like your usual crew, but, um, [00:10:00] especially without the alcohol there. But that’s probably a good thing too. Brett: Yeah, I guess. Um, I will have all the cats. I’ll be fine. I have to take care of the dog too. Christina: Have, have you heard any updates, like, um, I guess, um, about when you were, you know, you were in the hospital a few times over the last year with, with various things. Did you ever get any definitive update on what that was? Brett: On which one? I have so many symptoms. Which one are we talking about? Christina: Well, I guess I, I guess when you, you know, you’ve had to be like hospitalized or Brett: The pancreatitis. Christina: had the pancreatitis. Brett: the, the fact that it hasn’t happened again since I stopped drinking, um, really does indicate that it was entirely alcohol that was causing the problem. Um, so yeah, I’m just, I’m never gonna drink again. That’s fine. It’s, it’s all fine. Um, I did, I did get approved to get back on Medicaid. Um, so [00:11:00] yeah, I haven’t gotten the paperwork in the mail yet. Uh, but my old card should just start working and I’ll be able to, my, my new doctor wants a whole bunch more tests, including an MRI of my pituitary gland. Um. Like testosterone tests and stuff that I guess is more specific to what she thinks might be going on with me. Um, but now I can, I can actually get those tests That would’ve been just a huge out-of-pocket expense over the last couple months. So I’m excited. I’m excited to be back on Medicaid. I wish everyone could have Medicaid. Christina: Yeah, that would be really nice. That would be really nice if, if, if we had systems like that available, um, for everyone. Um, but. Instead, you know, if they’re, like, if you have really great health, I mean, you, you pointed those out. Like you have really great health insurance if you [00:12:00] can prove that you, you know, make absolutely no money. Um, but, but that opens up so many other, you know, issues that most people aren’t lucky enough to be able Brett: right. Yeah, totally. Christina: right. Brett: All right, well do you, okay, first topic. USB-C Cable Confusion Brett: How much do you know about USBC cables and the various specs? Christina: Uh, Brett: you know a shit ton. Christina: I do, unfortunately, I know a lot. Brett: So I, I had been operating under the assumption that there were basically, you had like data USBC cables, you had, uh, thunderbolt USBC cables and you had like, power only USPC cables. It turns out there’s like 18 different varieties of different, uh, like vol, uh, voltage, uh, amperage, uh, levels, like total wattage basically. And, um, and transfer speeds. And, [00:13:00] um, and there’s like maximum links for different types of cable. And it, it, I started to understand why like. One device would charge with one cable and another device would not charge with the same cable, even though they all have the same connector. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is, this is why, um, some of us have been really like eye rolly at the EU for their pronouncements about certain things, because simply mandating a connector type doesn’t actually solve the problem. Brett: No, it actually confuses it a little bit Christina: I think Yeah, I was going to say exactly. I think in some cases it makes it worse. Right? And, and then you have different, like, and, and then getting SB four into it, uh, uh, versus like, like, like, like various Thunderbolt versions. Like that adds complications too, because technically SB four and Thunderbolt four should basically be the same, but they’re not really, there are a couple of things that Thunderbolt might have that [00:14:00] USB four doesn’t necessarily have to have, although for all intents and purposes they might be the same. And then of course, thunderbolts five is its own thing too. So like I bought off of Kickstarter, I got like this, you know, like a cable charger, basically like, like a connector thing. It was like $120. For this, this, this thing that basically you can plug a cable into and you can see its voltage and um, or not voltage, I guess it’s uh, you know, amperage or whatever. And you can see like, it, it, it’s transfer speed and you can basically like check that on like a little display, which is useful, but the fact that like, you have to buy that sometimes. So like figure out, well, okay, well which cable is this? Right? And then, uh, to your point about lengths, right? So like, okay, so you want something that’s going to be fast charging but also high speed data transfer. Alright, well that means that you, the cable’s gonna have to be stiff. It’s not gonna be able to be something that’s really bendable. Um, which of course is what most people are going to want. So like you can get a fast charge, like a 240 wat or a hundred and, you know, 20 wat or, or [00:15:00] whatever, um, like a USB 2.0 transfer speed cable. But if you want one that’s, uh, going to be, you know, fast charging and. Fast data transfer, then like that’s a different type. And they have like limited lengths, which again, can also be associated with like Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt. You know, cables are much more expensive. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the, but their, their lengths are limited. Um, yeah. Uh, it’s very confusing. Brett: Did you know that in rare circumstances there are even devices that will only charge with an A to C cable. Christina: Yes, Brett: That’s so insane. Christina: yeah, no, I’ve run into that myself and then that’s a weird thing and I don’t even know how that should work. ’cause it’s, it’s, it’s a bizarre thing. You’re like, okay, well I thought this was just like a, you know, maybe like a dumb end, but it’s like, no, there’s like, you know, basically a microchip Brett: Like a two pin to two pin. Christina: at this point. Brett: Like two pen to two pen, no pd like you would think that would work with C to C, [00:16:00] but somehow it has to be A to c. I am getting one of those cable testers. I asked for one for Christmas so I could figure out this pile of cables I have and like my Sonos Ace headphones are very particular about which cables and what, um, charging hub I hooked them up to Christina: Right. Oh, yeah, hubs. I was gonna say, hubs introduce a whole other complication into this too, because depending on what hub you’re using, if you’re using a USB hub, it may or may not have certain things versus a Thunderbolt hub versus something else, versus just like, um, you know, a power brick. Like, yeah. Brett: Yeah. It’s fun stuff you. Christina: Yeah. No, it’s annoying. And, um, like, and what, what’s frustrating about this is like some of the cables that they’re better, like you can look at the, you know, the bottoms of them and you can see like they will have like the USB like four, or they might have 3.2, or they might have, you know, like the thunderbolt, you know, um, uh, icon [00:17:00] with, with, with its version. So you can figure out is this 20 gigabits, is this 40, is this 80? Um, but um. That’s not a guaranteed thing, and that also doesn’t guarantee authenticity of stuff, right? So a lot of the cables, you know, you buy off the internet can be, you know, and they might be, or even at stores, right? Like you’re, you’re not buying something from, even if you get things from Belkin or whoever, like, those things can have issues too. Um, although they at least tend to have better warranties. I bought a Balkan, um. Uh, like a, a, a PD cable, like a two 40 cable that I think it was like, you know, uh, 10 feet longer something. It was supposed to have some sort of long warranty and, and because the, the, you know, um, faster transfer ones, um, are, even though it was braided, you know, it stiff and it, it broke, like there was, uh, the, like the, you know, the connect with the part of the, the, the cable near the, the end, um, did that thing that typically apple cables do, where like, it, it sort of [00:18:00] fraying and you started like seeing the exposed wires and then like, you start to like, feel like, you know, like an electric charge, like Brett: A little tingle. Christina: you’re Yeah. And you’re like, okay, this isn’t good. Um, and so I at least had my Amazon receipt, so I was able to like. Get them to mail me a new one relatively easily. And like Anchor has an okay warranty too. But it’s one of those things you’re like, okay, when did I buy this? I was like, I didn’t even buy this a year ago, and this thing already crapped out. Um, versus, you know, you can get some really nice braided cables that are flexible, but they’re just gonna be 2.0 speeds. Um, and, and then if you buy, you know, you just buy like some random cable, you know, like at the airport or whatever. You’re like, all right, well, I don’t even know Brett: Great. Christina: anything about this. Uh, yeah, Brett: I have heard good things. I’ve heard good things about the company. Cable Matters. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. They make good stuff. They make good stuff. But again, at least the cables matters, cables that I have have been primarily stiffer cables because they tend to be like the, the higher transfer [00:19:00] speeds. So, um, like I have a cable, cable matters Thunderbolt cable, and I have like a USB four cable, I think. Um, but like, these are cables that like. I don’t, I mean, I, I have one that I, I kind of travel with, but I don’t, um, either keeping it as little cable matters, uh, uh, plastic, um. Like, so they come in like these, these case, uh, not these cases. Uh, they come in like these, uh, almost like Ziploc bag type of things. Um, which is a great way to ship cables honestly, you know, rather than using a box and, and like I, and I might toss one of those in a suitcase or a backpack, um, rather than having like the cable just out there loose. But I do that primarily because again, like they’re stiff and they’re not the sorts of things that I necessarily want, like in the bottom of my bag, you know, potentially getting broken and, and, and, and twisted and all of that. Um, they are overpriced for what they are and they are definitely not like, they’re not a high transfer cable, but if you can find ’em on sale, the beats, cables, the, the, the, the, the, the branded Beats cables, I actually like them better [00:20:00] than the apple cables that are the same thing, because they are, they’re longer, uh, by, you know, um, a, a few inches than, um, the, the Apple ones. But they’re still braided and they’re nice. And I was able to get, I dunno, this was a, this was not even Black Friday, but this was. Um, you know, sometime in like early November, I think, um, or maybe it was like late October. It might’ve been a Prime Day thing, I don’t know, but they were like eight or $9 a piece, and so I bought like five or six of them. Um, and they are, you know, uh, uh, PD and like, like, like fast charging peoples, they might not be 240, but I think they’re, they’re, they were like a hundred and you know, like 20 watts or whatever. But, um, you know, not high transfer speeds, but if you’re wanting to just quickly charge something and have it, you know, be a, a decent length and be like flexible. Those I don’t, those I don’t hate. Um, anchor makes pretty good cables. You green seems to be the company that’s sponsoring everyone now for various things. [00:21:00] But, um, I don’t know. I’ve started using MagSafe more and more, uh, like wireless charging when I can for some things, at least for phones, Brett: yeah. I actually have some U green wireless charging solutions that are really good. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I just got one of their, uh, their 10,000 million pair battery fast charging battery things because now the MagSafe, uh, can be like up to, you know, 30 watts or whatever, or 25 watts or, or, or, or whatever it is. Like it’s, um, a lot more, um, usable than, you know, when it was like 10 or, or, or even 15. You’re like, okay, this, this is actually not going to be like the, the slowest, you know, charging thing known to man. But of course, obviously it’s like you can use it with your phone and with your AirPods, but the rest of the things out there don’t, don’t all support shi too, so, Brett: Right. Christina: yeah. Brett: All right. So, um, I want to talk about TV a little bit. Christina: Yeah. I think before we do that though, we should probably Brett: oh, we should, we [00:22:00] have two sponsors to fit in Jesus. I should get on that. Sponsor Break: Shopify Brett: Um, let’s start with, uh, let’s start with Shopify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Have you been dreaming of owning your own business? In addition to having something to sell, you’ll need a website, a payment system, a logo, a way to advertise to new customers, et cetera, et cetera. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that’s where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and 10% of all e-commerce in the us From household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands. Just getting started, get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify helps you build beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography.[00:23:00] Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world-class expertise and everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. If you’re ready to sell, you’re ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [email protected] slash Overtired. Go to shopify.com/ Overtired. That is shopify.com/ Overtired. Thanks Shopify. Christina: Thank you Shopify. Brett: It’ll be, it’ll be just tight as hell by the time people hear it. But that was rough. I, that, that, that, that read, you just heard I [00:24:00] edited like six places. ’cause I kept, I, I don’t know. I’m tired. I’ve been up since, I’ve been up since two today. Christina: Yeah. Shit, man. That’s, yeah, you again, like you’ve been having like sleep issues. It’s, it’s, Brett: Maybe, maybe I shouldn’t be doing sponsor reads. Christina: No, no, no, no, no. Uh, no. We definitely wanna talk about tv. Do you wanna do, do we wanna do our second, um, uh, uh, ad break Brett: let’s do a block. Let’s make it a Christina: Let’s do it. Block. Alright, fantastic. Sponsor Break: Copilot Money Christina: Alright, well, since we are about to go into 2026, this is a great time to, uh, think about your finances. So are you ready to take control of your finances? Well meet copilot money. This is the personal finance app that makes your money feel clear and calm with a beautiful design. Smart automation copilot money brings all of your spending, saving and investment accounts into one place. It’s available on iOS, Mac, iPad, and now on the web, which is really great, uh, because I know, uh, for me anyway, that’s one of my one kind of things [00:25:00] about some of these like tools like this is that there’s not a web app. I’m really bothered by it. This is, you know, it’s a frustration that like the Apple card, for a long time, you know, you couldn’t really access things on, on the web. Even now it’s still kind of messy, like being able to handle things on the web. But as we enter 2026, it is time for a fresh start. And so with the, uh, mint shutdown and rising financial uncertainty, consumers are seeking clarity and control. And this is where copilot money comes in. So copilot money can help you track your budgets, your savings goals, and your net worth seamlessly. Plus, with the the new, um, web launch, you can enjoy a sudden experience on any device, which is really good. And guess what? For a limited time, you can get 26% off your first year when you sign up through the web app. New Year’s only don’t miss out on the chance to start the new year with confidence. There are features like automatic subscription tracking, so you’ll never miss upcoming charges again. Copilot money’s privacy first approach ensures that your data is secure and their team is dedicated to helping you stress less [00:26:00] about money. So whether you’re a finance pro or just starting out, copilot money is there to help you make better decisions. Visit, try dot copilot money slash Overtired and use the code Overtired to sign up for your one month free trial and embrace financial clarity. That’s try.copilot.money/ Overtired. Use the coupon Overtired. And again, that is 26% off for your first year. So thank you copilot money for, uh, sponsoring this week’s, uh, uh, episode. Oh, one other note about copilot money. They were, um, an apple, uh, design award finalist. So it’s a really well designed app and, um, we love to see, um, apps like this available on, on the web as well as iOS and, and MAC os. Brett: I have started using it very much because of the web version, and it is, it is really good. Christina: yeah, yeah. No, yeah. For, yeah, for me, that is like a, an actual like. Concrete requirement. Exploring Rocket Money and Web Interfaces Christina: Any money Brett: Like I’ve, I’ve [00:27:00] paid, I have about eight months left. I paid for a year of, of Rocket Money or whatever it’s called now. Um, and I’ve always loved that app, but yeah, it does not have a web interface. And once I started trying copilot out, I realized how much I really did want a web interface for that stuff, you know? What else have you seen? Discovering Umami Analytics Brett: Umami the analytics platform. Christina: Yes. Brett: It is so good. And it’s, it’s open source and you can self-host. And it is like, I, I’ve been using Fathom Analytics for a long time and I like Fathom, but Umami is, it has like all of the, uh, advanced stuff you would get with Google Analytics, but with like way more privacy focus and you’re not giving information to Google for one. Um, and the interface is beautiful. I love that. It’s so good. Christina: Yeah. Um, umami is really good. I think, uh, there’s another one, I’m [00:28:00] trying to think of what it was called. There are a number of these various, um, analytics, uh, hosted things, but no, umami is definitely a really good one. Nostalgia for Mint and Fever Christina: And I like, um, it reminds me, um, it was, what was it? It was Mint. It was Mint, Sean Edmond’s Mint. Which Brett: I was just gonna ask you if you remembered that. Christina: yeah, which was, which was one of the, uh, plausible analytics. It’s another one too. Um, which is also like, um, they, they have a hosted version, but you can also self-host. Um, and then that’s also a, a, a, another, uh, good one. But yeah. Um, was like my, my all time favorites, uh, you know, app. I, I, I loved that. Brett: Um, what was his RSS one? Uh, fever? Fever. Christina: was, was the best fever, was the best. The Decline of RSS and Google Reader Christina: And it was funny, like I, I think I’ve talked about this before, I was more insulated and like less upset than some people by the, the Google reader death because I had a, a, I’d been using Fever for so long, and then obviously, you know, stuff being updated and doesn’t really work [00:29:00] super well with like, the latest versions of PHP and things like that. But, you know, a lot of people were really, understandably and, and still more than a decade on, you know, very upset by the death of, um, Google reader. But I think because I, I had paid for and used, you know, my own, um, self-hosted fever installation, and then there were apps that people used for, you know, APIs and whatnot to build, you know, Macs or iOS apps or, or whatever. Like, I, I was obviously upset about Google Reader being shut down, but I was like, okay, you know, I, I can just, you know, move on to something else. And, um, and I’ve used, uh, feeder, um, not, not, not feeder, um, Brett: Reader Christina: is. No, no. Maybe, uh, it’s, uh, not Feed Demon. Um, that was like the OG one. Um, it’ll come to me, um, because I, I, yes. Thank you. Feed Ben. Thank you, thank you. One of the ones that’s still around, uh, from like the, of the, you know, various Google reader alternatives, like many of them. You know, closed up shop.[00:30:00] Brett: Yeah. Christina: if they kind of realized, you know, by Google reader, like this is the, unfortunately a niche market. Um, now that didn’t help the fact that like, you know, when people, when web browsers Safari, I think started at first and then Firefox did, and then, you know, uh, Chrome was, was fairly early too. Like when all the web browsers took away like RSS buttons to make it easy to subscribe to feeds or to auto discover feeds, and you had to like install like a, an extension or whatever to do that. Like, that all helped with the, the demise of RSS in a lot of ways. And of course, people moving everything into closed platforms and, and social networks and stuff that, you Brett: In, in the tech world though. So I have, my blog gets about 20,000 visits a week, but it gets 30,000 RSS downloads, like, uh, like daily, 30,000 readers are, are, are pulling my site. Um, so RSS is far from dead in the tech world. Christina: Right. Well, [00:31:00] well, I think, I think in a certain demographic, right? I think if you were to ask like a new, like college grads, I don’t think that any of them are using RSS at least not actively, right? Like, I mean, you might have a few, but like it’s, it’s just not gonna be like a thing where they’re gonna be, act like they might be using some apps that do similar types of things and might even pull in feed sources maybe. But it, it’s, it’s just not like a, like when, when I was graduating from college or in college, like everybody had, you know, RSS clients and that was just kind of a, a known thing. Brett: Yeah. So speaking of traffic, um, I don’t, did I mention that I got delisted on Bing and Christina: You did, Brett: I am, I’m back Christina: figure that out? You’re back now. Okay. Brett: I’m back now. Switching to Kagi Search Engine Brett: And, um, I have switched to using Kaji, um, as my primary search engine and they replicate all of duck duck go’s bang searches. Christina: Yes. Brett: So I Christina: one of the things I love about them. [00:32:00] Yes. Brett: I was pleased to see there’s a Bang Turp search on Kaji. Um, I actually use Christina: or is it kgi? Because I think I’ve always called it kgi. Yeah, it’s KA, it’s K, it’s KAGI. For anybody who’s who’s, uh, I don’t know how to, how, how, if it’s kgi, kgi, um, uh, you know, Kaji, whatever, Brett: It’ll be in the show notes. What the fuck ever, we’ll just call it KGI. Um, and yeah, so like I was super happy ’cause I used the Bang Turp to search my own site. I just got used to doing that. The Rise of AI-Generated Content Brett: Um, and, but it is like you can, the reason I switched to said web, uh, search engine is um, because you can report sites that are just AI slop and they will verify those reports and remove or flag slop sites in your search results. ’cause I was getting sick, even with DuckDuckGo, like five out [00:33:00] of 10 results were always, I’d get in, I’d get there, I’d get one, maybe two paragraphs into, uh, an article and realize, oh, someone just typed in my search term into chat GPT and then Christina: Oh yeah. Brett: automated it. Christina: Oh, I was gonna say there, there it is. Automated at this point. And, and like, to be clear, like a lot of search results, even before like the rise of like genre of AI were a variant of this, where you would see like people like buying older domain names that expired. Well, yeah, but even before that happened mean that, that obviously when, when, when the Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra and then they, they changed your name. Um, I Brett: know, like Jason Turra or Christina: Or something like that. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was weird. Um, I mean, you know, um, does that site, did, did have they given up the ghost on that? I’m curious. Um, yeah. Wow. Okay. They are still, well, no, they haven’t published anything since November 30th. So something has happened where they, uh, are [00:34:00] they, they’re definitely cutting down on, on various things. Um, oh no. Paul Terpstra. Oh my God. Paul Terpstra. You are still, Brett: Yeah. Christina: you were like the one author there that I see on this website. Um, now what was, what was messed up about, about this? Um, although no. Okay. Their homepage, the last one they say is like, OCT is like, uh, November, um, uh, 30th. But if you click on the, the Paul trips to handle, then like you see, um, December 22nd, uh, which is, which is today as we’re recording this, Brett: Wow, I didn’t even realize. Christina: Yeah. So, alright. So that is still, somehow that grift is still going on. But yeah, I mean, even before the rise of those things, you would see, you know, sites that would either buy up dead domains and then like, have like very similar looking content, but slightly different maybe, you know, like, uh, you know, injected with a bunch of, you know. Links or whatever, or you would see people who would, you know, do very clearly SEO written and, and probably, you know, [00:35:00] like, again, pre generative ai, but, you know, assisted slop content. But yeah, now it’s, it’s just, it’s crazy. Like, and it doesn’t help that, like the AI summaries, which can be useful, but, um, and they’re getting better, which is good only because they’re so prominent. Like, I’m not a fan of them. But if you’re not using an alternative search engine, like, you know, you see these AI summaries and like if they’re bad and sometimes they are then. Brett: Often Christina: You know, well, they’re, they’ve gotten better, uh, is the only thing I would say. I, I still wouldn’t rely on them, but I’ve, I’ve noticed a, like, I’ve noticed a, a genuine, like uptick in like, improvements and in like, how awful they are probably in like the last six weeks, which is damning with faint praise. I’m not at all saying it’s good. I am simply saying, it’s like, I’m primarily thinking for like, people who are like, like less tech savvy relatives who are going to just go to, you know, bing.com or, or google.com and then see those sorts of things. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, we’re not gonna be able to convince them to go to a, a, a third [00:36:00] party search engine. Um, although, you know, some people, like, I think my mom was using Duck to Go for a while as like her default on her iPhone, um, which I was, I was like proud of her about, but I was also kind of like, uh, that’s got its own issues. But no, I, I like ka a lot. Um, I, I’ve Brett: Well, and it’s so keyboard driven, like DuckDuckGo has good keyboard shortcuts. KAGY slash Kaji has even better keyboard shortcuts. Like you can navigate and control everything with, uh, like Gmail style, single key keyboard shortcuts, which I really like. Christina: Yeah. Yeah, I like that too. And then they, they, of course, they make like a, a web kit, um, like a browser, um, that, that has, they’ve back ported, um, you know, a lot of chrome extensions too. I personally don’t see the point in that. Um, I, I think that if you’re going to be like that committed to, like, using like the, you know, the web extension format and like using like more popular extensions, you might as well [00:37:00] just use a Chrome fork if you don’t wanna use Chrome, which is fine, but like, you could use a browser like Helium, which, which we talked about last show, which has, um, the, the, the hash bangs kind of integrated in, or you could use, you know, if you wanted to use, um, um, you know, the, the, the, the Brett: o is Orion, is Orion the one you’re talking about that? Yeah. Christina: that, that, yeah, that, that, that, that, that, that’s Katy’s thing. And that was actually originally how I heard about them was because it was like, oh, this is interesting. Um, you know, this is a kind of an interesting, you know, kind of alternative browser. And then it turned out that that was just kind of a, in some ways, kind of a front to promote the, the search engine, which is the real, you know, thing. Um, which is fine, right? I mean, that, that was Google’s model. Um, Brett: Well, and we should mention for anyone who hasn’t tried it, it is a paid service. Um, and you are getting search results with no ads and, and spam, uh, ai, slot protection and all of the benefits you would expect from a paid service. So [00:38:00] I think, like for me, five bucks a month gets me, I think 300 searches, which is. Plenty for me, like, I guess I, I’m still waiting to see, I’ve never counted how many searches I do a month, Christina: Yeah, Brett: you know, like three searches a day, uh, would come out to like 90 searches a month and I have 300 available, so I think I’ll be fine. Christina: yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, basically being able to get to do 10 a day, which in most cases is fine. What I’ve done is I’m on, like, they have a, a, a family plan, um, and they don’t care. They even, I think in their documentation, or at least they did, they do not care if you are like actually in a family with the people that you are on or not. So if you, you know, find some folks that you wanna kind of sync up with, you can like, you know, be on a family plan together and you can save money, um, on, uh, whatever their, uh, um, their pricing [00:39:00] stuff is. So, um, so me, me and Justin Williams are, uh, in a, uh, Brett: Justin Williams, I haven’t heard that name in forever. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. We went to C Oasis together. We went both nights in Los Angeles, um, in August. Yeah. Um, or September rather. Um, yeah, so, okay, so this is how this works. They have, their starter plan is, is $5 a month, which includes, and they do have an AI assistant too. So it was funny, they had the AI slot protection, but they also have like an AI assistant that you can use and like an AI summarizer and whatnot. Um, that’s $5 a month. And then there’s the professional plan, which is, so that’s for 300 searches a month for the standard AI for starter $5 a month. The professional plan is unlimited searches and standard ai, that’s $10 a month. And then the ultimate is, um. Uh, everything in professional plus you get like premium model access, which, okay, but the family plan, um, is, is the, so you can do one of two things. You have a duo [00:40:00] plan, which is two professional accounts for a couple, which is $14 a month plus sales tax. So it’s, uh, you know, average of $7 per person, which I think is what Justin and I are on. And then there’s a family plan with up to six family members. And again, they don’t care if you are actually in a family or not, and that’s $20 a month. So the real thing to do if you’re wanting to like, you know, save on this is like find five friends, Brett: Yeah. Christina: get on the $20 a month, you know, family plan thing. Spread the, spread the cost, and that way you can get the, you know, professional plan for, for, for less. But to your Brett: All right. Christina: most people, it’s probably $300, 300 searches a month is probably plenty. And if you search a lot like we do, I, I think it is worth paying for. Brett: yeah, yeah. All right. TV Shows: Is TV Just Okay Now? Christina: anyway, but we wanted to talk about tv, so let’s Brett: Well do, we’re, we’re at 50 minutes already, so I think we need to choose whether we do TV or gratitude. What Christina: do you have a [00:41:00] gude, like a good one? Brett: I, I, no, I have a, I have a throwaway one. Christina: Okay. Brett: I, it was one of those, like, I looked at my doc and I was like, oh, I don’t think I’ve talked about that even though I probably have, um, yeah, let’s just talk about tv. So I, I have been noting, and my question in the show notes was, is TV just okay now? Because I’ve been watching, I watched Stranger Things, pluribus Down, cemetery Road, platonic, and all of it was, it was entertaining, but it wasn’t like, must watch tv. None of it was like, none of it was as good as like Modern Family. Modern Family was fucking good. Tv, like family friendly and just like I’ve, I’ve been through that series so many times and it’s always fun and it’s always better than like pluribus. I like the, I like the concept kind of, it’s not. not all that, um, engaging, I guess.[00:42:00] Christina: I like it. But, Brett: Yeah. I don’t hate it like I do, I do like it, but it’s not like, I don’t, I don’t count the days until the next episode comes out and I miss, I miss things being really good. So you had a couple responses to that though. Christina: Well, I mean, I tend to agree with you. So first of all, there, I put in the, in the show notes, um, there’s a link to a thing that, uh, that James and Pozak wrote for the, the New York Times, uh, God a year and a half ago now called, um, the Comfortable Problem of Mid tv. And he said it, it, it’s got a great cast, it looks cinematic, it’s, um, fine and is everywhere. And kind of talking about like, you know, we went from like the era of like peak TV to now being, um. You know what, what he’s dubbed like mid tv and I think that there’s, there’s some truth to that. Um, and, and, and he even says at the beginning, let me say up front, this is not an essay about how bad TV is today, just the opposite. There’s, um, little truly bad high profile television made anymore, um, is it’s more talking about, um, like [00:43:00] what we have instead Today is something less awful, but in a way more sad, the willingness to retreat, to settle to trade, the ambitious for the defendable. And I think that there’s some truth to that. Um, I think that we see this movies now too, and with movies it’s actually much more of a problem. Like there’s some really high highs. Um, but because the movie industry is in such a bad place, um, it, it’s that much more notable when like, you don’t have like a big strong slate of, of things. And so, you know, it, it, it’s more of a problem. TV for, for better or worse, has become the dominant entertainment form. And yeah, I think that it, it, it’s fine. Uh, but there are very few things that I’m like, oh, wow, yeah, that, that’s like, you know, the wire. Um, not that anything is, but you know what I mean? But is, but even like, you know, pluribus, which I really like. I actually think that’s, um, my, my favorite show of, of, um, 2025, um, at least new show. Um, well, maybe the studio. The studio. I might have, I, I, I might put, Brett: That was pretty Christina: above that. But, but, but, but [00:44:00] like, it’s one of those things where I’m like, okay, you know, um, it’s not breaking bad, right? Like, if we’re gonna be comparing Vince Gilligan shows, and maybe that’s unfair, but, you know, it just, but, but still, like, you know, you’re gonna be compared to your last hit. And, and, and, and that is what it is. Um, I will say though, like, I haven’t watched Stranger Things in years, and I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think I can force myself to like, care about that again, but I’ve heard kind of mixed Brett: That’s where L is too, L doesn’t care. And, and then there’s the whole like two cast members being Zionists kind of turned a whole bunch of people off and Christina: Well, and well, David Harbor, David Harbor’s whole Lily Allen thing. Are you, are you, are you familiar with this floor at all? Brett: No. Christina: Okay. You know who Lily Allen is? Brett: Yes. Christina: Okay. So she and David Harbor were married and, um, she wrote an album called, uh, uh, west End Girl that, that came out, uh, like in November, which is actually a really good album, [00:45:00] which is like White Girl Lemonade, where she just basically reads him to filth for being an absolute piece of shit. Like, apparently like, you know, they were together, they were married or whatever. She goes off to London to perform in a play and he’s like. Oh, we’re gonna be away for months. I, I wanna sleep with other people. And so they kind of like, she kind of accepts getting into an open relationship with him, even though she didn’t really want to be, which look that her, that’s her bad, whatever. But then he proceeds to like, do things that was not what they’d agreed upon on, upon the parameters of their, of their relationship. And then she’s just like brutally honest about the entire thing. And so as you’re listening to this album, you’re just learning more and more about like, David Harbor’s like sex life and, um, and stuff. And, and like, it’s just on blast. It’s incredible. Um, but, uh, yeah, so there’s, there’s some of that stuff. There’s, I, I don’t know, like I don’t, I don’t really follow the rest of the cast stuff except that, uh, the girl who plays, um, 11 like. Frequently want to smack because just the most annoying [00:46:00] celebrity in on the planet. But like, putting that aside, um, I just, I stopped caring. It took them too long between seasons and the, and, and, and the budget for that show was also so insane. I’m like, you, you cost more than strain than thinking of Thrones. Game of Thrones is, was even at its worst, was a better show than Stranger Things. So like it, yeah. But but that goes to your point. Like, it’s like, it’s okay. Brett: Yeah. Yeah, Christina: Um, I will say the new season of Fallout just, um, premiered and so far I I’m still really enjoying that. Um, Brett: yet to see it. Christina: you should, you should definitely watch the Brett: What is it on? Christina: uh, Amazon Brett: Okay. Christina: and, uh, and it’s, and it’s really, really good. Um. And this year they are doing the episodic, um, not episodic, the weekly drop, right. Rather than the binge thing. So the first season, uh, they dropped it all at once and um, and I was a little bit worried. I was like, fuck, does that mean they don’t [00:47:00] believe in this? What are they going to do? Wound up being like Amazon’s biggest hit after their Lord of the Rings, um, you know, thing. And so it was immediately kind of picked up for a second season and it was picked up for a third season before the second season even, uh, premiered. Um, and uh, and that might be the final one. Um, they’re saying, but, but, but, but who knows? But, but so far anyway, like they’ve only, there’s only been one episode, but it’s, it’s been good so far. The Cultural Phenomenon of Heated Rivalry Christina: Um, but, but what I was gonna talk to you about is the gay hockey show. Brett: Which is. Christina: It’s called Heated rivalry. It’s on HBO Max. It was originally just supposed to be on, uh, a Canadian streamer called Crave. And um, then at the, like, the, the like 11th hour, HBO Max picked it up and was like, okay, we’ll play this in, um, some of our territories and other things. And I wanna be very clear, this is not high art at all. This is like, no way. Like this actually in some ways it, it personifies [00:48:00] the TV is just okay now thing, but in other ways it’s actually a little bit more interesting just because the cultural phenomenon that has happened around it in like the last, like, like it hasn’t even been out a month and it’s only six episodes, although they are also going to be getting a second season. Um, it’s sort of wild how, like I went from, I’d seen a trailer for it and I was like, okay, whatever. And like it came out, I think like right after Thanksgiving. Then like within like two or three weeks, like literally I wasn’t following anything around it, but my Instagram, my TikTok, Twitter, everything that I was seeing was just all about the discourse around the show. And it’s like a bunch of us all seem to have to have discovered it. Like one weekend where we were like, okay, we’re gonna actually sit down and watch the gay hockey show. Um, and this is exactly what it is. It is a gay hockey show. So it is based on, there was a series of books that this, uh, female, uh, writer Rachel Reed wrote, um, uh, about like, uh, I think like they were like eBooks, types of thing. Um, uh, I think although there, there is now I [00:49:00] think like a, a hard cover release because they’ve been so popular and they’re just, it’s just ero, it’s just smut, right? It’s basically fanfic dressed up in something else. And the idea was like, okay, you have like these, you know, male like hockey players who are closeted and kind of have like this, this romance that, that starts from like 2008, um, through like, I dunno, like, like 2017 or 2018. And there are a number of different. Books or stories in the universe. But the one that people liked the most was the, the second book, which is called Heed Rivalry. You don’t really need to know any about that. The big thing about the show is that it is essentially like soft core gay porn. Um, but yet it’s like weirdly compelling in a way. Like, it, it is very, like, there’s, there’s some sweet aspects to it. Like you were before the, the show, you were saying, oh, it’s kinda like Heart Stopper could not be further from Heart Stopper. ’cause Heart Stopper is very sweet and twee and kind of like loving and like whatnot. This is like. You know, like guys in their twenties with amazing asses, [00:50:00] you know, like doing things to one another kind of an in secret. And, and the, the thing is, there’s not a whole lot of plot. Like the plot is the porn. Because, because the whole thing is, is that like they don’t spend, they don’t have a time to spend a lot of time together because they’re, they’re closeted and their rivals. Oh, that’s the whole conceit. It’s like they’re these two great hockey players and they, they, they, um, you know, um, play for opposing teams and they’re like, each other’s biggest rivals, but like, they’re, they’re fucking, um, and uh, it, it’s, uh, again, it’s not high art at all, but Brett: the target audience for this? Christina: And here’s the interesting thing. So the books are almost entirely read by women, um, and which, which makes sense. There’s, there’s a lot of like, you know, like, male, male, like, um, like the history of slash fiction goes back to like, like Fanfic in general, like goes back to like women writing, like Spock and, and, uh, um, what’s the space together? Kirk Together. Yeah. Um, and so the books are almost entirely, uh, consumed by, by women and probably straight women, although probably some queer women too. Um, but the [00:51:00] show seems to be a mix of gay men, straight women, all, although I’ve seen a lot of lesbians. As well. Um, yeah, yeah, because again, like the discourse is just kind of ridiculous and, and the memes are fun. Um, the guy who created it, he’s gay or created the, the, the television adaptation. He’s gay and, uh, I think he’s done a, a, a pretty good job with it. The, the leads are the thing that’s like incredible, like the, especially the guy who plays the, the Russian character, Ilya, uh, that actor is really, really good and he’s Texan, and yet he does like a great Russian accent and, um. And, and he’s very attractive. And like I, I, I can see like why a lot of people are into it, but it’s funny ’cause like New York Magazine, like they weren’t even covering the show, which, why would you, it was like some Canadian kind of, you know, you know, thing that barely gets picked by HBO. Then it takes off and now like they’re covering it. The, the last time I remember New York Magazine covering a show like this, like Vociferously was Gossip Girl, like 18 years ago. Um, [00:52:00] and it kind of reminds me of that, where like everybody woke up one day when they’re like, oh, this is like a cultural moment now. So again, not good television, probably not gonna necessarily be for everyone, but, but it’s a moment. And like, I kept seeing edits, I kept seeing Mo, I kept seeing edits on TikTok and stuff and I was like, okay, do I have to watch the gay hockey show? All right, I have to watch the gay hockey show so that it’s, we might be at the point where like TV is just okay, but at least there are some good like moments about, whereas the culture, we can all like agree. Okay, we’re all gonna be talking about this one thing. Brett: That sounds like what I’ll be doing on Christmas Day. Christina: Oh my God. Actually that would be a great thing to watch on Christmas. And I think that the final episode is gonna come out like the day after Christmas, so there you go. Brett: Done Deal. Cool. Wrapping Up and Holiday Wishes Brett: All right, well thanks for, we’re recording this the same morning. The show’s supposed to come out, so I gotta do some editing, but uh, but [00:53:00] thanks for showing up while you’re in Atlanta and yeah, this has been a classic, a fun classic Overtired. Christina: absolutely. Well, um, get some sleep, uh, take care of yourself. Um, happy holidays. Um, uh, hope that a, a Christmas isn’t too weird for you. And, um, and happy New Year. Brett: you too. Get some sleep.

The Overtired trio reunites for the first time in ages, diving into a whirlwind of health updates, hilarious anecdotes, and the latest tech obsessions. Christina shares a dramatic spinal saga while Brett and Jeff discuss everything from winning reddit contests to creating a universal markdown processor. Tune in for updates on Mark 3, the magical world of Scrivener, and why Brett’s back on Bing. Don’t miss the banter or the tech tips, and as always, get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe feel a little overtired yourself. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast 01:09 Christina’s Health Journey 10:53 Brett’s Insurance Woes 15:38 Jeff’s Mental Health Update 24:07 Sponsor Spot: Shopify 24:18 Sponsor: Shopify 26:23 Jeff Tweedy 27:43 Jeff’s Concert Marathon 32:16 Christina Wins Big 36:58 Monitor Setup Challenges 37:13 Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles 38:33 Review Plans and Honest Assessments 38:59 Current Display Setup 41:30 Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences 42:51 MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons 50:58 Markdown Processor: Apex 01:07:58 Scrivener and Writing Tools 01:11:55 Helium Browser and Privacy Features 01:13:56 Bing Delisting Incident Show Links Danny Brown’s 10 in the New York Times (gift link) Indigo Stack Scrivener Helium Bangs Apex Apex Syntax Join the Marked 3 Beta LG 32 Inch UltraFine™evo 6K Nano IPS Black Monitor with Thunderbolt™ 5 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Brett + 2 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast Jeff: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. The three of us are all together for the first time since the Carter administration. Um, it is great to see you both here. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel if I didn’t say that already. Um, and I’m here with Christina Warren and I’m here with Brett Terpstra and hello to both of you. Brett: Hi. Jeff: Great to see you both. Brett: Yeah, it’s good to see you too. I feel like I was really deadpan in the pre-show. I’ll try to liven it up for you. I was a horrible audience. You were cracking jokes and I was just Jeff: that’s true. Christina, before you came on, man, I was hot. I was on fire and Brett was, all Brett was doing was chewing and dropping Popsicle parts. Brett: Yep. I ate, I ate part of a coconut outshine Popsicle off of a concrete floor, but Jeff: It is true, and I didn’t even see him check it [00:01:00] for cat hair, Brett: I did though. Jeff: but I believe he did because he’s a, he’s a very Brett: I just vacuumed in Jeff: He’s a very good American Brett: All right. Christina’s Health Journey Brett: Well, um, I, Christina has a lot of health stuff to share and I wanna save time for that. So let’s kick off the mental health corner. Um, let’s let Christina go first, because if it takes the whole show, it takes the whole show. Go for it. Christina: Uh, I, I will not take this hold show, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, my mental health is okay-ish. Um, I would say the okay-ish part is, is because of things that are happening with my physical health and then some of the medications that I’ve had to be on, um, uh, to deal with it. Uh, prednisone. Fucking sucks, man. Never nev n never take it if you can avoid it. Um, but why Christina, why are you on prednisone or why were you on prednisone for five days? Um, uh, and I’m not anymore to be clear, but that certainly did not help my mental health. Um, at the beginning of November, I woke up and I thought that I’d [00:02:00] slept on my shoulder wrong. And, um, uh, and, and just some, some background. I, I don’t know if this is pertinent to how my injury took place or not, but, but it, I’m sure that it didn’t help. Um, I have scoliosis and in the top and the bottom of my spine, so I have it at the top of my, like, neck area and my lower back. And so my back is like a crooked s um, this will be relevant in a, in a second, but, but I, I thought that I had slept on my back bunny, and I was like, okay, well, all right, it hurts a lot, but fine. Um, and then it, a, a couple of days passed and it didn’t get any better, and then like a week passed and I was at the point where I was like, I almost feel like I need to go to the. Emergency room, I’m in pain. That is that significant. Um, and, you know, didn’t get any better. So I took some of grant’s, Gabapentin, and I took, um, some, some, uh, a few other things and I was able to get in with like a, a, a sports and spine guy. Um, and um, [00:03:00] he looked at me and he was like, yeah, I think that you have like a, a, a bolting disc, also known as a herniated disc. Go to physical therapy. See me later. We’ll, we’ll deal with it. Um. Basically like my whole left side was, was, was really sore and, and I had a lot of pain and then I had numbness in my, my fingers and um, and, and that was a problem the next day, which was actually my birthday. The numbness had at this point spread to my right side and also my lower extremities. And so at this point I called the doctor and he was like, yeah, you should go to the er. And so I went to the ER and, and they weren’t able to do anything for me other than give me, you know, like, um, you know, I was hoping they might give me like, some sort of steroid injection or something. They wouldn’t do anything other than, um, basically, um, they gave me like another type of maybe, maybe pain pill or whatever. Um, but that allowed the doctor to go ahead and. Write, uh, write up an MRI took forever for me to get an MRI, I actually had to get it in Atlanta. [00:04:00] Fun fact, uh, sometimes it is cheaper to just pay and not go through insurance and get an MR MRI and, um, a, um, uh, an x-ray, um, I was able to do it for $450 Jeff: Whoa. Really? Christina: Yeah, $400 for the MR mri. $50 for the x-ray. Jeff: Wow. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: how I, they, I had an MRI, they charged me like $1,200 and then they failed to bill insurance ’cause I was between insurance. Christina: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was, and and honestly that was gonna be the situation that I was in, not between insurance stuff, but they weren’t even gonna bill insurance. And insurance only approved certain facilities and to get into those facilities is almost impossible. Um, and so, no, there are a lot of like get an MR, I now get a, you know, mammogram, get ghetto, whatever places. And because America’s healthcare system is a HealthScape, you can bypass insurance and they will charge you way less than whatever they bill insurance for. So I, I don’t know if it’s part of the country, you know, like Seattle I think might [00:05:00] probably would’ve been more expensive. But yeah, I was able to find this place like a mile from like, not even a mile from where my parents lived, um, that did the x-rays and the MRI for $450 total. Brett: I, I hate, I hate that. That’s true, but Christina: Me too. Me too. No, no. It pisses me off. Honestly, it makes me angry because like, I’m glad that I was able to do that and get it, you know, uh, uh, expedited. Then I go into the spine, um, guy earlier this week and he looks at it and he’s like, yep, you’ve got a massive bulging disc on, on C seven, which is the, the part of your lower cervical or cervical spine, which is your neck. Um, and it’s where it connects to your ver bray. It’s like, you know, there are a few things you can do. You can do, you know, injections, you can do surgery. He is like, I’m gonna recommend you to a neurosurgeon. And I go to the neurosurgeon yesterday and he was showing me or not, uh, yeah, yesterday he was showing me the, the, the, the scans and, and showing like you up close and it’s, yeah, it’s pretty massive. Like where, where, where the disc is like it is. You could see it just from one view, like, just from like [00:06:00] looking at it like, kind of like outside, like you could actually like see like it was visible, but then when you zoomed in it’s like, oh shit, this, this thing is like massive and it’s pressing on these nerves that then go into my, my hands and other areas. But it’s pressing on both sides. It’s primarily on my left side, but it’s pressing on on my right side too, which is not good. So, um, he basically was like, okay. He was like, you know, this could go away. He was like, the pain isn’t really what I’m wanting to, to treat here. It’s, it’s the, the weakness because my, my left arm is incredibly weak. Like when they do like the, the test where like they, they push back on you to see like, okay, like how, how much can you, what, like, I am, I’m almost immediately like, I can’t hold anything back. Right? Like I’m, I’m, I’m like a toddler in terms of my strength. So, and, and then I’m freaked out because I don’t have a lot of feeling in my hands and, and that’s terrifying. Um, I’m also. Jeff: so terrifying, Christina: I’m, I’m also like in extreme pain because of, of, of where this sits. Like I can’t sleep well. Like [00:07:00] the whole thing sucks. Like the MRI, which was was like the most painful, like 25 minutes, like of my existence. ’cause I was laying flat on my back. I’m not allowed to move and I’m just like, I’m in just incredible pain with that part of, of, of, of my, my side. Like, it, it was. It was terrible. Um, but, uh, but he was like, yeah. Um, these are the sorts of surgical options we have. Um, he’s gonna, um, do basically what what he wants to do is basically do a thing where he would put in a, um, an artificial or, or synthetic disc. So they’re gonna remove the disc, put in a synthetic one. They’ll go in through the, the front of my throat to access the, my, my, my, my spine. Um, put that there and, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll be overnight in the hospital. Um, and then it’ll be a few weeks of recovery and the, the, the pain should go away immediately. Um, but it, it could be up to two years before I get full, you know, feeling back in my arm. So anyway, Jeff: years, Jesus. And Christina: I mean, and hopefully less than that, but, but it could be [00:08:00] up to that. Jeff: there’s no part of this at this point. That’s a mystery to you, right? Christina: The mystery is, I don’t know how this happened. Jeff: You don’t know how it happened, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: So tell, tell us about the ghastly surgery. The, the throat thing really threw me like, I can’t imagine that Christina: yeah, yeah. So, well, ’cause the thing is, is that usually if what they just do, like spinal fusion, they’ll go in at the back of your neck, um, and then they’ll remove the, the, um, the, the, the, the disc. And then they’ll fuse your, your, your two bones together. Basically. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fuse this part of the vertebrae, but because they’re going to be replacing the, the disc, they need more room. So that’s why they have to go in through the, through, through basically your throat so that they can have more room to work. Jeff: Good lord. No thank you. Brett: Ugh. Wow. Jeff: Okay. Brett: I am really sorry that is happening. That is, that is, that dwarfs my health concerns. That is just constant pain [00:09:00] and, and it would be really scary. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not great. It’s not great, but I’m, I’m, I’m doing what I can and, uh, like I have, you know, a small amount of, of Oxycodine and I have like a, a, a, you know, some other pain medication and I’m taking the gabapentin and like, that’s helpful. The bad part is like your body, like every 12, 15 hours, like whatever, like the, the, the cycle is like, you feel it leave your system and like if you’re asleep, you wake up, right? Like, it’s one of those things, like, you immediately feel it, like when it leaves your system. And I’ve never had to do anything for pain management before. And they have me on a very, they have me like on the smallest amount of like, oxycodone you can be on. Um, and I’m using it sparingly because I don’t wanna, you know, be reliant on, on it or whatever. But it, it, but it is one of those things where I’m like, yeah, like sometimes you need fucking opiates because, you know, the pain is like so constant. And the thing is like, what sucks is that it’s not always the same type of pain. Like sometimes it’s throbbing, sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s like whatever. It sucks. But the hardest thing [00:10:00] is like, and. This does impact my mental health. Like it’s hard to sleep. Like, and I’m a side sleeper. I’m a side sleeper, and I’m gonna have to become a back sleeper. So, you know. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s not great. It’s not great, but, you know, that, that, that, that, that’s me. The, the good news is, and I’m very, very gratified, like I have a good surgeon. Um, I’m gonna be able to get in to get this done relatively quickly. He had an appointment for next week. I don’t think that insurance would’ve even been able to approve things fast enough for, for, for that regard. And I have, um, commitments that I can’t make then. And I, and that would also mean that I wouldn’t be able to go visit my family for Christmas. So hopefully I’ll do it right after Christmas. I’m just gonna wait, you know, for, for insurance to, to do its thing, knock on wood, and then schedule, um, from there. But yeah, Jeff: Woof. Christina: so that’s me. Um, uh, who wants to go next? Jeff or, uh, Jeff or Brett? Jeff: It’s like, that’s me. Hot potato throwing it. Brett: I’ll, I’ll go. Brett’s Insurance Woes Brett: I can continue on the insurance topic. Um, I was, for a few months [00:11:00] after getting laid off, I was on Minsu, which is Minnesota’s Medicaid, um, v version of Medicaid. And so basically I paid nothing and I had better insurance than I usually have with, uh, you know, a full deductible and premiums and everything. And it was fantastic. I was getting all the care I needed for all of the health stuff I’m going through. Um, I, they, a, a new doctor I found, ordered the 15 tests and I passed out ’cause it was so much blood and. And it, I was getting, but I was getting all these tests run. I was getting results, we were discovering things. And then my unemployment checks, the income from unemployment went like $300 over the cap for Medicaid. So [00:12:00] all of a sudden, overnight I was cut from Medicaid and I had to do an early sign up, and now I’m on courts and it sucks bad. Like they’re not covering my meds. Last month cost me $600. I was also paying. In addition to that, a $300 premium plus every doctor’s visit is 50 bucks out of pocket. So this will hopefully only last until January, and then it’ll flip over and I will be able to demonstrate basically no income, um, until like Mark makes enough money that it gets reported. Um, and even, uh, until then, like I literally am making under the, the poverty limit. So, um, I hope to be back on Medicaid shortly. I have one more month. I’ll have to pay my $600 to refill. I [00:13:00] cashed out my 401k. Um, like things were, everything was up high enough that I had made, I. I had made tens of thousands of dollars just on the investments and the 401k, but I also have a lot of concerns about the market volatility around Nvidia and the AI bubble in general. Um, so taking my money out of the market just felt okay to me. I paid the 10%, uh, penalty Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: and ultimately I, I came out with enough cash that I can invest on my own and be able to cover the next six months. Uh, if I don’t have any other income, which I hope to, I hope to not spend my nest egg. Um, but I did, I did a lot of thinking and calculating and I think I made the right choices. But anyway, [00:14:00] that will help if I have to pay for medical stuff that will help. Um. And then I’ve had insomnia, bad on and off. Right now I’m coming off of two days of good sleep. You’re catching me on a good day. Um, but Jeff: Still wouldn’t laugh at my jokes. Brett: before that it was, well, that’s the thing is like before that, it was four nights where I slept two to four hours per night, and by the end of it, I could barely walk. And so two nights of sleep after a stint like that, like, I’m just super, I’m deadpan, I’m dazed. Um, I could lay down and fall asleep at any time. Um, I, so, so keep me awake. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Mental health is good. Like I’m in pretty high spirits considering all this, like financial stuff and everything. Like my mood has been pretty stable. I’ve been getting a lot of coding done. I’ll tell you about projects in [00:15:00] a minute, but, um, but that’s, that’s me. I’m done. Jeff: Awesome. I’m enjoying watching your cat roll around, but clearly cannot decide to lay down at this point. Brett: No, nobody is very persnickety. Jeff: I literally have to put my. Well, you say put a cat down like you used to. When you put a kid down for a nap, you say you wanna put ’em down. Right? That’s where it’s coming from. I now have a chair next to my desk, ’cause I have one cat that walks around Yowling at about 11:00 AM while I’m working. And I have to like, put ’em down for a nap. It’s pathetic. It’s pathetic that I do that. Let’s just be clear. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: soulmate though. Jeff’s Mental Health Update Jeff: Um, I’m doing good. I’m, I’m, I’ve been feeling kind of light lately in a nice way. I’ve had ups and downs, but even with the ups and downs, there’s like a, except for one day last week was, there’s just been feeling kind of good in general, which is remarkable in a way. ’cause it’s just like stressful time. There’s some stressful business stuff, like, [00:16:00] a lot of stuff like that. But I’m feeling good and, and just like, uh, yeah, just light. I don’t know, it’s weird. Like, I’ve just been noticing that I feel kind of light and, uh. And not, not manic, not high light. Brett: Yeah. No, that’s Jeff: uh, and that’s, that’s lovely. So yeah. And so I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I fucking, it’s cold. Which sucks ’cause it just means for everybody that’s heard about my workshop over the years, that I can’t really go out there and have it be pleasant Brett: It’s, it’s been Minnesota thus far. Has had, we’ve had like one, one Sub-Zero day. Jeff: whatever. It’s fucking cold. Christina: Yeah. What one? Brett? Brett. It’s December 6th as we’re recording this one Sub-Zero day. That’s insane. Brett: Is it Jeff: Granted, granted I’ve been dressing warm, so I’m ready to go out the door for ice related things. Meaning, meaning government, ice, Brett: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Jeff: So I like wear my long underwear during [00:17:00] the day. ’cause actually like recently. So at my son’s school, which is like six blocks from here, um, has a lot of Somali immigrants in it. And, and uh, and there was a, at one point there was ice activity in the other direction, um, uh, uh, near me. And so neighbors put out a call here around so that at dismissal time people would pair up at all the intersections surrounding the school. And, um, and like a quick signal group popped up, whatever. It was so amazing because like we all just popped out there. And by the time I got out, uh, everyone was already like, posted up and I was like, I’m a, in these situations, I am a wanderer. You want me roaming? I don’t want to pair up with somebody I don’t like, I just, I grabbed a camera with a Zoom on it and like, I was like, I’m in roam. Um, it’s what I was as an activist, what I was as a reporter, like it’s just my nature. Um, but like. Everybody was out and like, and they were just like, they were ready man. And then we got like the all clear and you could just see people in the [00:18:00] neighborhood just like standing down and going home. But because of the true threat and the ongoing arrests here, now that the Minneapolis stuff has started, like I do, I was like wearing long underwear just, and I have a little bag by the door ready to like pop out if something comes up and I can be helpful. Um, and uh, and I guess what I’m saying is I should use that to go into the garage as well if I’m already prepared. Brett: Right. Jeff: But here’s, okay, so here’s a mental health thing actually. So I, one of the, I’ve gone through a few years of just sort of a little bit of paralysis around being able to just, I don’t know what, like do anything that is kind of project related that takes some thinking, whatever it is, like I’m talking about around the house or things that have kind of broken over the years, whatever. So I’ve had this snowblower and it’s a really good snowblower. It’s got headlights. And, uh, and I used to love snow blowing the entire block. Like it just made me feel good, made me feel useful. Um, and sorry I cough. I left it outside for a [00:19:00] year for a, like a winter and a spring and water got into the gas tank. It rusted out in there. I knew I couldn’t start it or I’d ruin the whole damn engine. So I left it for two years and I felt bad about myself. But this year, just like probably a month before the first big snowfall, I fucking replaced a gas tank and a carburetor on a machine. And I have never done anything like that in my life. And so then we got the snowfall and I, and I snow blowed this whole block Brett: Nice. Jeff: great. ’cause now they all owe me. Brett: I, uh, I have a, uh, so I have a little electric powered, uh, snowblower that can handle like two inches of snow. Um, and, and on big snowfalls, if you get out there every hour and keep up with it, it, it works. But, but I, my back right now, I can’t stand for, I can’t stand still for 10 minutes and I can’t move for more than like five minutes. And so I’m, I’m very disabled and El has good days and bad days, uh, thus [00:20:00] far. L’s been out there with a shovel, um, really being the hero. But we have a next door neighbor with a big gas powered snowblower. And so we went over, brought them gifts, and, um, asked if they would take care of our driveway on days we couldn’t, uh, for like, you know, we’d pay ’em 25 bucks to do the driveway. And, uh, and they were, he was still reluctant to accept money. Um. But, but we both agreed it was better to like make it a, a transaction. Jeff: Oh my God. You don’t want to get into weird Minnesota neighbor relational. Brett: right. You don’t want the you owe me thing. Um, so, so we have that set up. But in the process we made really good friends with our neighbor. Like we sat down in their living room for I think 45 minutes and just like talked about health and politics and it was, it was really fun. They’re, they’re retired. They’re in their [00:21:00] seventies and like act, he always looks super grumpy. I always thought he was a mean old man. He’s actually, he laughs more easily than most people I’ve ever met. Um, he’s actually, when people say, oh, he is actually a teddy bear, this guy really is, he’s just jovial. Uh, he just has resting angry old man face. Jeff: Or like my, I have public mis throat face, like when I’m out and about, especially when I’m shopping, I know that my face is, I’m gonna fucking kill you if you look me in the eye Brett: I used Jeff: is not my general disposition. Brett: people used to tell me that about myself, but I feel like I, I carry myself differently these days than I did when I was younger. Jeff: You know what I learned? Do you, have you both watched Veep, Christina: Yes, Jeff: you know, Richard sp split, right? Um, and, and he always kind of has this sweet like half smile and he is kind of looking up and I, I figured out at one point I was in an airport, which is where my kill everybody face especially comes up. Just to be clear. TSA, it’s just a feeling inside. I [00:22:00] have no desire to act to this out. I realized that if I make the Richard Plet face, which I can try to make for you now, which is something like if I just make the Richard Plet face, my whole disposition Brett: yeah. Yeah. Jeff: uh, and I even feel a little better. And so I just wanna recommend that to people. Look up Richard Spt, look at his face. Christina: Hey, future President Bridges split. Jeff: future President Richard Splat, also excellent in the Detroiters. Um, that’s all, uh, that’s all I wanted to say about that. Brett: I have found that like when I’m texting with someone, if I start to get frustrated, you know, you know that point where you’re still adding smiley emoticons even though you’re actually not, you’re actually getting pissed off, but you don’t wanna sound super bitchy about it, so you’re adding smile. I have found that when I add a smiley emoji in those circumstances, if I actually smile before I send it, it like my [00:23:00] mood will adjust to match, to match the tone I’m trying to convey, and it lessens my frustration with the other person. Jeff: a little joy wrist rocket. Christina: Yeah. Hey, I mean, no, but hey, but, but that, that, that, that, that’s interesting. I mean, they’re, they, they’ve done studies that like show that, right? That like show like, you know, I mean, like, some of this is all like bullshit to a certain extent, but there is something to be said for like, you know, like the power of like positive thinking and like, you know, if you go into things with like, different types of attitudes or even like, even if you like, go into job interviews or other situations, like you act confident or you smile, or you act happy or whatever. Even if you’re not like it, the, the, the, the euphoria, you know, that those sorts of uh, um, endorphin reactions or whatever can be real. So that’s interesting. Brett: Yeah, I found, I found going into job interviews with my usual sarcastic and bitter, um, kind of mindset, Jeff: I already hate this job. Brett: it doesn’t play well. It doesn’t play well. So what are your weaknesses? Fuck off. Um,[00:24:00] Christina: right. Well, well, well, I hate people. Jeff: Yeah. Dealing with motherfuckers like you, that’s one weakness. Sponsor Spot: Shopify Brett: let’s, uh, let’s do a sponsor spot and then I want to hear about Christina winning a contest. Christina: yes. Jeff: very Brett: wanna, you wanna take it away? Sponsor: Shopify Jeff: I will, um, our sponsor this week is Shopify. Um, have you ever, have you just been dreaming of owning your own business? Is that why you can’t sleep? In addition to having something to sell, you need a website. And I’ll tell you what, that’s been true for a long time. You need a payment system, you need a logo, you need a way to advertise new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that is where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use [00:25:00] templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand’s style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. If you’re ready to sell, you are ready to Shopify. Turn your Big Business Idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [email protected] slash Overtired. Go to shopify.com/ Overtired. What was that? Say it with me. shopify.com/ Overtired [00:26:00] cha. Uh, Brett: the, uh, the group, the group input on the last URL, I feel like we can charge extra for that. That was Jeff: Yeah. Cha-ching Brett: they got the chorus, they got the Overtired Christina: You did. You got the Overtired Jeff: They didn’t think to ask for it, but that’s our brand. Christina: shopify.com/ Overtired. Jeff Tweedy Jeff: What was, uh, I was watching a Stephen Colbert interview with Jeff Tweedy, who just put out a triple album and, uh, it was a very thoughtful, sweet interview. And then Stephen Colbert said, you know, you’re not supposed to do this. And Jeff Tweety said, it’s all part of my career long effort to leave the public wanting less. Christina: Ha, Jeff: That was a great bit. Christina: that’s a fantastic bit. A side note, there are a couple of really good NPR, um, uh, tiny desks that have come out in the last couple of month, uh, couple of weeks. Um, uh, one is shockingly, I, I’ll, I’ll just be a a, a fucking boomer about it. The Googo dolls. Theirs was [00:27:00] great. It’s fantastic. They did a great job. It already has like millions of views, like it wrecked up like over a million views, I think like in like, like less than 24 hours. They did a great job, but, uh, but Brandy Carlisle, uh, did one, um, the other day and hers is really, really good too. So, um, so yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Anyway, you said, you saying Jeff pd maybe, I don’t know how I got from Wilco to like, you know, there, Jeff: Yeah. Well, they’ve done some good, he’s done his own good Christina: he has, he has done his own. Good, good. That’s honestly, that’s probably what I was thinking of, but Jeff: It’s my favorite Jeff besides me because Bezos, he’s not in the, he’s not in the game. Christina: No. No, he’s not. No. Um, he, he’s, he’s not on the Christmas card list at all. Jeff: Oh man. Jeff’s Concert Marathon Jeff: Can I just tell you guys that I did something, um, I did something crazy a couple weeks ago and I went to three shows in one week, like I was 20 fucking two, Brett: Good grief. Jeff: and. It was a blast. So, okay, so the background of this is my oldest son [00:28:00] loves hip hop, and when we drive him to college and back, or when I do, it’s often just me. Um, he, he goes deep and he, it’s a lot of like, kind of indie hip hop and a lot. It’s just an interesting, he listens to interesting shit, but he will go deep and he’ll just like, give me a tour through someone’s discography or through all their features somewhere, whatever it is. And like, it’s the kind of input that I love, which is just like, I don’t, even if it’s not my genre, like if you’re passionate and you can just weave me through the interrelationship and the history and whatever it is I’m in. So as a result of that, made me a huge fan of Danny Brown and made me a huge fan of the sky, Billy Woods. And so what happened was I went to a hip hop show at the seventh Street entry, uh, which is attached to First Avenue. It’s a little club, very small, lovely little place, the only place my band could sell out. Um, and I watched a hip hop show there on a Monday night, Tuesday night. I went to the Uptown Theater, which Brett is now a actually an operating [00:29:00] theater for shows. Uh, and I, and I saw Danny Brown, but I also saw two hyper pop bands, a genre I was not previously aware of, including one, which was amazing, called Fem Tenal. And I was in line to get into that show behind furries, behind trans Kids. Like it was this, I was the weirdest, like I did not belong. Underscores played, and, and this will mean something to somebody out there, but not, didn’t mean anything to me until that night. And, uh. I felt like such, there were times, not during Danny Brown, Danny Brown’s my age all good. But like there were times where I was in the crowd ’cause I’m tall. Anybody that doesn’t know I’m very tall and I’m wearing like a not very comfortable or safe guy seeming outfit, a black hoodie, a black stocking cap. Like I basically looked like I’m possibly a shooter and, and I’m like standing among all these young people loving it, but feeling a little like, should I go to the back? Even like I was leaving that show [00:30:00] and the only people my age were people’s parents that were waiting to pick them up on the way out. So anyway, that was night two. Danny Brown was awesome. And then two nights later I went to see, this is way more my speed, a band called the Dazzling Kilman who were a band that. Came out in the nineties, St. Louis and a noisy Matthew Rock. Wikipedia claims they invented math rock. It’s a really stupid claim, uh, but it’s a lovely, interesting band and it’s a friend of mine named Nick Sakes, who’s who fronted that band and was in all these great bands back when I was in bands called Colos Mite and Sick Bay, and all this is great shit. So they played a reunion show. In this tiny punk rock club here called Cloudland, just a lovely little punk rock club. And, um, and, and that was like rounded out my week. So like, I was definitely, uh, a tourist the early part of the week, mostly at the Danny Brown Show. But then I like got to come home to my noisy punk rock [00:31:00] on, uh, on Thursday night. And I, I fucking did three shows and it hurt so bad. Like even by the first of three bands on the second night. I was like, I don’t think I can make it. And I do. I already pregame shows with ibuprofen. Just to be really clear, I microdose glucose tabs at shows like, like I am, I am a full on old man doing these things. But, um, I did get some cred with my kids for being at a hyper pop show all by myself. And, Christina: Hell yeah. A a Jeff: friends seemed impressed. Christina: no, as a as, as as they should be. I’m impressed. And like, and I, I, I typically like, I definitely go to like more of like, I go, I go to shows more frequently and, and I’m, I’m even like, I’m, I’m gonna be real with you. I’m like, yeah, three in one week. Jeff: That’s a lot. Christina: That’s a lot. That’s a lot. Jeff: man. Did I feel good when I walked home from that last show though? I was like, I fucking did it. I did not believe I wasn’t gonna bail on at least two of those shows, if not all three. Anyway, just wanted to say Brett: I [00:32:00] do like one show a year, but Jeff: that’s how I’ve been for years this year. I think I’ve seen eight shows. Brett: damn. Jeff: Yeah, it’s Brett: Alright, so you’ve been teasing us about this, this contest you won. Jeff: Yeah, please, Christina. Sorry to push that off. Christina: No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s completely okay. That, that, that, that’s great. Uh, no. Christina Wins Big Christina: So, um, I won two six K monitors. Brett: Damn. Jeff: is that what those boxes are behind you? Christina: Yeah, yeah. This is what the boxes are behind me, so I haven’t been able to get them up because this happened. I got them literally right in the midst of all this stuff with my back. Um, but I do have an Ergotron poll now that is here, and, and Grant has said that he will, will get them up. But yeah, so I won 2 32 inch six K monitors from a Reddit contest. Brett: How, how, how, Jeff: How does this happen? How do I find a Reddit contest? Christina: Yeah. So I got lucky. So I have, I, I have a clearly, well, well, um, there was a little, there was a little bit of like, other step to it than that, but like, uh, so how it worked was basically, um, LG is basically just put out [00:33:00] two, they put out a new 32 inch six K monitor. I’ll have it linked in, in, in the show notes. Um, so we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but like one of my big, like. Pet peeve, like things that I can’t get past. It’s like I need like a retina screen. Like I need like the, the perfect pixel doubling thing for that the Mac Os deals with, because I’ve used a 5K screen, either through an iMac or um, an lg, um, ultra fine or, um, a, uh, studio display. For like 11 years. And, and I, and I’ve been using retina displays on laptops even longer than that. And so if I use like a regular 4K display, like it just, it, it doesn’t work for me. Um, you can use apps like, um, like better control and other things to kind of emulate, like what would be like if you doubled the resolution, then it, it down, you know, um, of samples that, so that. It looks better than, than if it’s just like the, the, the 4K stuff where in the, the user interface things are too big and whatnot. And to be clear, this is a Macco West problem. If [00:34:00] you are using Windows or Linux or any other operating system that does fractional scaling, um, correctly, then this is not a problem. But Macco West does not do fractional scaling direct, uh, correctly. Um, weirdly iOS can, like, they can do three X resolution and other things. Um, but, but, but Macs does not. And that’s weird because some of the native resolutions on some of the MacBook errors are not even perfectly pixeled doubled, meaning Apple is already having to do a certain amount of like resolution changes to, to fit into their own, created by their, their own hubris, like way of insisting on, on only having like, like two x pixel doubling 18 years ago, we could have had independent, uh, resolutions, uh, um, for, for UI elements and, and, and window bars. But anyway, I, I’m, I’m digressing anyway. I was looking at trying to get either a second, uh, studio display, which I don’t wanna do because Apple’s reportedly going to be putting out a new one. Um, and they’re expensive or getting, um, there are now a number of different six K [00:35:00] displays that are not $6,000 that are on the market. So, um, uh, uh, Asus has one, um, there is one from like a, a Chinese company called like, or Q Con that, um, looks like a, a complete copy of this, of the pro display XDR. It has a different panel, but it’s, it’s six K and they, they’ve copied the whole design and it’s aluminum and it’s glossy and it looks great, but I’d have to like get it from like. A weird distributor, and if I have any issues with it, I don’t really wanna have to send it back to China and whatnot. And then LG has one that they just put out. And so I’ve been researching these on, on Mac rumors and on some other forums. And, um, I, uh, I, somebody in one of the Mac Roomers forums like posted that there was like a contest that LG was running in a few different subreddits where they were like, tell us why you should get one of, like, we’re gonna be giving away like either one or two monitors, and I guess they did this in a few subreddits. Tell us why this would be good for your workflow. And, um, I guess I, I guess I’m one of the people who kind of read the [00:36:00] assignment because it, okay, I’ll just be honest with this, with, with you guys on this podcast, uh, because I, I don’t think anyone from LG will hear this and my answers were accurate anyway. But anyway, this was not the sort of contest where it was like we will randomly select a winner. This was the moderators and lg, were going to read the responses and choose the winner. Jeff: Got it. Christina: So if you spend a little bit of time and thoughtfully write out a response, maybe you stand a better chance of winning the contest. Jeff: yeah, yeah. Put the work in like it was 2002. Christina: Right. Anyway, I still was shocked when I like woke up like on like Halloween and they were like, congratulations, you’ve won two monitors. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? Jeff: That’s amazing. Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff: Nice work. I know I’ve, you know, I’ve been staring at those boxes behind you this whole time, just being like, those look like some sweet monitors. Christina: yeah, yeah. Monitor Setup Challenges Christina: I mean, and, uh, [00:37:00] uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, and I, I’m very much, so my, my, my only issue is, okay, how am I gonna get these on my desk? So I’m gonna have to do something with my iMac and I’m probably gonna have to get rid of my, my my, my 5K, um, uh, uh, studio display, at least in the short term. Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles Christina: Um, but what I did do is I, um, I ordered from, um, Ergotron, ’cause I already have. Um, two of their, um, LX mounts, um, or, or, or, or arms. Um, and only one of them is being used right now. And then I have a different arm that I use for the, um, um, iMac. Um, they sell like a, if you call ’em directly, you can get them to send you a tall pole so that you can put the two arms on top of them. And that way I think I can like, have them so that I can have like one pole and then like have one on one side, one Jeff: I have a tall pole. Christina: and, and yeah, that’s what she said. Um, Jeff: as soon as I said it, I was like, for fuck’s sake. But Christina: um, but, uh, but, but yeah, but so that way I think I, I can, I, in theory, I can stack the market and have ’em side by side. I don’t know. Um, I got that. I, I had to call Tron and, and order that from them. [00:38:00] Um, it was only a hundred dollars for, for the poll and then $50 for a handling fee. Jeff: It’s not easy to ship a tall pole. Brett: That’s what she said. Christina: that is what she said. Uh, that is exactly what she said. But yeah, so I, I, the, the, the unfortunate thing is that, um, I, um, I, I had to, uh, get a, like all these, they, they came in literally right before Thanksgiving, and then I’ve had, like, all my back stuff has Jeff: Yeah, no Christina: debilitating, but I’m looking forward to, um, getting them set up and used. And, uh, yeah. Review Plans and Honest Assessments Christina: And then full review will be coming to, uh, to, I have to post a review on Reddit, but then I will also be doing a more in depth review, uh, on this podcast if anybody’s interested in, in other places too, to like, let let you know, like if it’s worth your money or not. Um, ’cause there, like I said, there are, there are a few other options out there. So it’s not one of those things where like, you know, um, like, thank you very much for the free monitor, um, monitors. But, but I, I will, I will give like the, the, you know, an honest assessment or Current Display Setup Brett: So [00:39:00] do you currently have a two display setup? Christina: No. Um, well, yes, and kind of, so I have my, my, I have my 5K studio display, and then I have like my iMac that I use as a two to display setup. But then otherwise, what I’ve had to do, and this is actually part of why I’m looking forward to this, is I have a 4K 27 inch monitor, but it’s garbage. And it, it’s one of those things where I don’t wanna use it with my Mac. And so I wind up only using it with my, with my Windows machine, with my framework desktop, um, with my Windows or Linux machine. And, and because that, even though I, it supports Thunderbolt, the Apple display is pain in the ass to use with those things. It doesn’t have the KVM built in. Like, it doesn’t like it, it just, it’s not good for that situation. So yeah, this will be of this size. I mean, again, like I, I, I’m 2 32 inch monitors. I don’t know how I’m gonna deal with that on my Jeff: I Brett: yeah. So right now I’m looking at 2 32 inch like UHD monitors, Christina: Yeah,[00:40:00] Brett: I will say that on days when my neck hurts, it sucks. It’s a, it’s too wide a range to, to like pan back and forth quickly. Like I’ll throw my back out, like trying to keep track of stuff. Um, but I have found that like if I keep the second display, just like maybe social media apps is the way I usually set it up. And then I only work on one. I tried buying an extra wide curve display, hated it. Jeff: Uh, I’ve always wanted to try one, but Christina: I don’t like them. Jeff: Yeah. Christina: Well, for me, well for me it’s two things. One, it’s the, I don’t love the whole like, you know, thing or whatever, but the big thing honestly there, if you could give me, ’cause people are like, oh, you can get a really big 5K, 2K display. I’m like, that’s not a 5K display. That is 2 27 inch, 1440 P displays. One, you know, ultra wide, which is great. Good for you. That’s not retina. And I’m a sicko Who [00:41:00] needs the, the pixel doubling? Like I wish that my eyes could not use that, but, but, but, Jeff: that needs the pixel. Like was that the headline of your Reddit, uh, Christina: no, no. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. But, but maybe it should be. Hi, I’m a sicko who only, um, fucks with, with, with, with, with, with, with retina displays. Ask me anything. Um, but no, but that’s a good point. Brett: I think 5K Psycho is the Christina: 5K Sicko is the po is the po title. I like that. I like that. No, what I’m thinking about doing and that’s great to know, Brett. Um, this kind of reaffirms my thing. Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences Christina: So what’s nice about these monitors is that they come with like, built in like, um, Thunderbolt 5K VM. So, which is nice. So you could conceivably have multiple, you know, computers, uh, connected, you know, to to, to one monitor, which I really like. Um, I mean like, ’cause like look, I, I’ve bitched and moaned about the studio display, um, primarily for the price, but at the same time, if mine broke tomorrow and if I didn’t have any way to replace it, I’ve, I’ve also gone on record saying I would buy a new one immediately. As mad as I am about a [00:42:00] lot of different things with that, that the built-in webcam is garbage. The, you know, the, the fact that there’s not a power button is garbage. The fact that you can’t use it with multiple inputs, it’s garbage. But it’s a really good display and it’s what I’m used to. Um, it’s really not any better than my LG Ultra fine from 2016. But you know what? Whatever it is, what it is. Um. I, I am a 5K sicko, but being able to, um, connect my, my personal machine and my work machine at the same time to one, and then have my Windows slash Linux computer connected to another, I think that’s gonna be the scenario where I’m in. So I’m not gonna necessarily be in a place where I’m like, okay, I need to try to look at both of them across 2 32 inch displays. ’cause I think that that, like, that would be awesome. But I feel like that’s too much. Brett: I would love a decent like Thunderbolt KVM setup that could actually swap like my hubs back and Christina: Yes. MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons Brett: Um, so, ’cause I, I have a studio and I have my, uh, Infor MacBook Pro [00:43:00] and I actually work mostly on the MacBook Pro. Um, but if I could easily dock it and switch everything on my desk over to it, I would, I would work in my office more often. ’cause honestly, the M four MacBook Pro is, it’s a better machine than the original studio was. Um, and I haven’t upgraded my studio to the latest, but, um, I imagine the new one is top notch. Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah. Brett: my, my other one, a couple years old now is already long in the tooth. Christina: No, I mean, they’re still good. I mean, it’s funny, I saw that some YouTube video the other day where they were like, the best value MacBook you can get is basically a 4-year-old M1 max. And I was like, I don’t know about that guys. Like, I, I kind of disagree a little bit. Um, but the M1 max, which is I think is what is in the studio, is still a really, really good ship. But to your point, like they’ve made those, um. You know, the, the, the new ones are still so good. Like, I have an M three max as my personal laptop, and [00:44:00] that’s kind of like the dog chip in the, in the m um, series lineup. So I kind of am regretful for spending six grand on that one, but it is what it is, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not upgrading. Um, I mean, maybe, maybe in, in next year if, if the M five Pro, uh, or M five max or whatever is, is really exceptional, maybe I’ll look at, okay, how much will you give me to, to trade it in? But even then, I, I, but I feel like I’m at that point where I’m like, it gets to a point where like it’s diminishing returns. Um, but, uh, just in terms of my own budget. But, um, yeah, the, the new just info like pro or or max, whatever, Brett: I have, I have an M four MacBook Pro sitting around that I keep forgetting to sell. Uh, it’s the one that I, it only had a 256 gigabyte hard drive, Jeff: what happened to me when I bought my M1, Brett: and I, and I regretted that enough that I just ordered another one. But, uh, for various reasons, I couldn’t just return the one I didn’t Jeff: ’cause it was.[00:45:00] Brett: so now I, now I have to sell it and I should sell it while it’s still a top of the line machine Christina: Sell it before, sell, sell, sell, sell it before next month, um, or, or February or whenever they sell it before then the, the pros come out. ’cause right now the M five base is out, but the pros are not. So I think feel like you could still get most of your value for it, especially since it has very few battery cycles. Be sure to put the battery cycles on your Facebook marketplace or eBay thing or whatever. Um, I bought my, uh, she won’t listen to this so she won’t know, but, um, they, there was a, a killer Cyber Monday deal, uh, for Best Buy where they had like a, the, the, the, so it’s several years old, but it was the, the M two MacBook Air, but the one that they upgraded to 16 gigs of Ram when Apple was like, oh, we have to have Apple Intelligence and everything, because they actually thought that they were actually gonna ship Apple Intelligence. So they like went back and they, like, they, they, you know, retconned like made the base model MacBook Air, like 16 [00:46:00] gigs. Um, and, uh, anyway, it was, it was $600, um, Jeff: still crazy. Christina: which, which like even for like a, a, a 2-year-old machine or whatever, I was like, yeah, she, my sister, I think she’s on like, like a 2014 or older than that. Like, like MacBook Air. She doesn’t even know where the MagSafe is. I don’t think she even knows where the laptop is. So she’s basically doing everything like on her phone and I’m like, okay, you need a laptop of some type, but at this point. I do feel strongly that like the, the, the $600 or, or, or actually I think it was $650, it was actually less, it is actually more expensive than what the, the, the Cyber Monday sale was, um, the M1, Walmart, MacBook Air. I’m like, absolutely not like that is at this point, do not buy that. Right? Like, I, especially with eight gigs of ram, I’m, I’m like, it’s been, it’s five years old. It’s a, it was a great machine and it was great value for a long time. $200. Cool, right? Like, if you could get something like use and, and, and, and if you could replace the battery or, you know, [00:47:00] for, for, you know, not, not too much money or whatever. Like, I, I, I could see like an argument to be made like value, right? But there’d be no way in hell that I would ever spend or tell anybody else to spend $650 on that new, but $600 for an M two with Jeff: Now we’re talking. Christina: which has the redesign brand new. I’m like, okay. Spend $150 more and you could have got the M four, um, uh, MacBook Air, obviously all around Better Machine. But for my sister, she doesn’t need that, Jeff: What do we have to do to put your sister in this M two MacBook Christina: that, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly it. So I, I, I was, well, also, it was one of those things I was like, I think that she would rather me spend the money on toys for my nephew for Santa Claus than, than, uh, giving her like a, a processor upgrade. Um, Jeff: Claus isn’t real. Brett: Oh shit. Jeff: Gotcha. Every year I spoil it for somebody. This year it was Christina and Brett. Sorry guys. Brett: right. Well, can I tell you guys Jeff: Yeah. [00:48:00] Brett Software. Brett: two quick projects before we do Jeff: Hold on. You don’t have to be quick ’cause you could call it Brett: We’re already at 45 minutes and I want Jeff: What I’m saying, skip GrAPPtitude. This is it? Brett: okay. Christina: us about Mark. Tell us about your projects. Brett: So, so Mark three is, there’s a public, um, test flight beta link. Uh, if you go to marked app.com, not marked two app.com, uh, marked app.com. Uh, you, there’s a link in the, in the, at the top for Christina: Join beta. Mm-hmm. Brett: Um, and that is public and you can join it and you can send me feedback directly through email because, um, uh, uh, the feedback reporter sucks for test flight and you can’t attach files. And half the time they come through as anonymous feedback and I can’t even follow up on ’em. So email me. But, um, I’ll be announcing that on my blog soon-ish. Um, right now there’s like [00:49:00] maybe a couple dozen, um, testers and I, it’s nice and small and I’m solving the biggest bugs right away. Um, so that’s been, that’s been big. Like Mark, even since we last talked has added. Do you remember Jeff when Merlin was on and he wanted to. He wanted to be able to manage his styles, um, and disable built-in styles. There’s now a whole table based style manager where you Jeff: saw that. Brett: you can, you can reorder, including built-in styles. You can reorder, enable, disable, edit, duplicate. Um, it’s like a full, full fledged, um, style manager. And I just built a whole web app that is a style generator that gives you, um, automatic like rhythm calculations for your CSS and you can, you can control everything through like, uh, like UI fields instead of having to [00:50:00] write CSS. Uh, but you can also o open up a very, I’ve spent a lot of time on the code mirror CSS editor in the web app. Uh, so, and it’s got live preview as you edit in the code mirror field. Um, so that’s pretty cool. And that’s built into marts. So if you go to style, um, generate style, it’ll load up a, a style generator for you. Anyway, there’s, there’s a ton. I’m not gonna go into all the details, but, uh, anyone listening who uses markdown for anything, especially if you want ability to export to like Word and epub and advanced PDF export, um, join the beta. Let me know what you think. Uh, help me squash bugs. But the other thing, every time I push a beta for review before the new bug reports come in, I’ve been putting time into a tool. Markdown Processor: Apex Brett: I’m calling [00:51:00] Apex and um, I haven’t publicly announced this one yet, but I probably will by the time this podcast comes out. Jeff: I mean, doesn’t this count? Brett: It, it does. I’m saying like this, this might be a, you hear you heard it here first kind of thing, um, but if you go to github.com/tt sc slash apex, um, I built a, uh, pure C markdown processor that combines syntax from cram down GitHub flavored markdown, multi markdown maku, um, common mark. And basically you can write syntax from any of those processors, including all of their special features, um, and in one document, and then use Apex in its unified mode, and it’ll just figure out what. All of your syntax is supposed to do. Um, so you can take, you can port documents from one platform to another [00:52:00] without worrying about how they’re gonna render. Um, if I can get any kind of adoption with Apex, it could solve a lot of problems. Um, I built it because I want to make it the default processor in marked ’cause right now, you, you have to choose, you know, cram Christina: Which one? Brett: mark and, and choosing one means you lose something in order to gain something. Um, so I wanted to build a universal one that brought together everything. And I added cool features from some extensions of other languages, such as if you have two lists in a row, normally in markdown, it’s gonna concatenate those into one list. Now you can put a carrot on a line between the two lists and it’ll break it into two lists. I also added support for a. An extension to cram down that lets you put double uh, carrots inside a table cell and [00:53:00] create a row band. So like a cell that, that expands it, you rows but doesn’t expand the rest of the row. Um, so you can do cell spans and row spans and it has a relaxed table version where you don’t have to have an alignment row, which is, uh, sometimes we just wanna make quickly table. You make two lines. You put some pipes in. This will, if there’s no alignment row, it will generate a table with just a table body and table data cells in no header. It also allows footers, you can add a footer to a table by using equals in the separator line. Um, it, it’s, Jeff: This is very civilized, Brett: it is. Christina: is amazing, Brett: So where Common Mark is extremely strict about things, um, apex is extremely permissive. Jeff: also itty bitty things like talk about the call out boxes from like Brett: oh yeah, it, it can handle call out syntax from Obsidian and Bear and Xcode Playgrounds. [00:54:00] Um, and it incorporates all of Mark’s syntax for like file includes and even renders like auto scroll pauses that work in marked and some other teleprompter situations. Um, it uses file ude syntax from multi markdown, like, which is just like a curly brace and, uh, marked, which is, uh, left like a double left, uh, angle bracket and then different. Brackets to surround a file name and it handles IA writer file inclusion where you just type a forward slash and then the name of a file and it automatically detects if that file is an image or source code or markdown text, and it will import it accordingly. And if it’s a CSV file, it’ll generate a table from it automatically. It’s, it’s kind of nuts. I, it’s kind of nuts. I could not have done this [00:55:00] without copilot. I, I am very thankful for copilot because my C skills are not, would not on their own, have been up to this task. I know enough to bug debug, but yeah, a lot of these features I got a big hand from copilot on. Jeff: This is also Brett. This is some serious Brett Terpstra. TURPs Hard Christina: Yeah, it is. I was gonna say, this is like Jeff: and also that’s right. Also, if your grandma ever wrote you a note and it, and though you couldn’t really read it, it really well, that renders perfectly Christina: Amazing. No, I was gonna say this is like, okay, so Apex is like the perfect name ’cause this is the apex of Brett. Jeff: Yes. Apex of Brett. Christina: That’s also that, that’s, that’s not an alternate episode title Apex of Brett. Because genuinely No, Brett, like I am, I am so stunned and impressed. I mean, you all, you always impressed me like you are the most impressive like developer that I, that I’ve ever known. But you, this is incredible. And, and this, I, I love this [00:56:00] because as you said, like common Mark is incredibly strict. This is incredibly permissive. But this is great. ’cause there are those scenarios where you might have like, I wanna use one feature from one thing or one from another, or I wanna combine things in various ways, or I don’t wanna have to think about it, you know? Brett: I aals, I forgot to mention I aals inline attribute list, which is a crammed down feature that lets you put curly brackets after like a paragraph and then a colon and then say, dot call out inside the curly brackets. And then when it renders the markdown, it creates that paragraph and adds class equals call out to the paragraph. Um, and in, in Cramon you can apply these to everything from list items to list to block quotes. Like you can do ’em for spans. You could like have one after, uh, link syntax and just apply, say dot external to a link. So the IAL syntax can add IDs classes and uh, arbitrary [00:57:00] attributes to any element in your markdown when it renders to HTML. And, uh, and Apex has first class support for I aals. Was really, that was, that Christina: that was really hard, Brett: I wrote it because I wanted, I wanted multi markdown, uh, for my prose writing, but I really missed the als. Christina: Yes. Okay. Because see, I run into this sort of thing too, right? Because like, this is a problem like that. I mean, it’s a very niche problem, um, that, that, you know, people who listen to this podcast probably are more familiar with than other types of people. But like, when you have to choose your markdown processor, which as you said, like Brett, like that can be a problem. Like, like with, with using Mark or anything else, you’re like, what am I giving up? What do I have? And, and like for me, because I started using mul, you know, markdown, um, uh, largely because of you, um, I think I was using it, I knew about it before you, but largely because of, of, of you, like multi markdown has always been like kind of my, or was historically my flavor of choice. It has since shifted to being [00:58:00] GitHub, labor bird markdown. But that’s just because the industry has taken that on, right? But there were, you know, certain things like in like, you know, multi markdown that work a certain way. And then yeah, there are things in crammed down. There are things in these other things in like, this is just, this is awesome. This Brett: It is, the whole thing is built on top of C mark, GFM, which is GitHub’s port of common mark with the GitHub flavored markdown Christina: Right. Brett: Um, and I built, like, I kept that as a sub-module, totally clean, and built all of this as extensions on top of Cmar, GFM, which, you know, so it has full compatibility with GitHub and with Common Merck by out, like outta the box. And then everything else is built on top of that. So it, uh, it covers, it covers all the bases. You’ll love it Christina: I’m so excited. No, this is awesome. And I Brett: blazing fast. It can render, I have a complex document that, that uses all of its features and it can render it in [00:59:00] 0.006 seconds. Christina: that’s awesome. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: That’s so cool. No, this is great. And yeah, I, and I think that honestly, like this is the sort of thing like if, yeah, if you can eventually get this to like be like the engine that powers like mark three, like, that’ll be really slick, right? Because then like, yeah, okay, I can take one document and then just, you know, kind of, you know, wi with, with the, you know, ha have, have the compatibility mode where you’re like, okay, the unified mode or whatever you’re calling it, be like, okay, it’ll render all of it. Like maybe having, you know, a a, a caveat on there that’s like, okay, you might run into some breaking things if there’s some things that conflict or whatever. So like, keep that, you know in mind. But the, the less people have to think about what, like Brett: well, yeah, Christina: marked an inch and Brett: wanna open, you wanna open documents that, that are written for GitHub. You wanna open documents that you created in obsidian. You wanna open your bear documents like every, every source you have has slightly different syntax. So one. [01:00:00] One processor to rule them all kind of makes sense. Christina: It totally does. And I think, I mean, you know, and I, I don’t know like how useful this would be for a lot of people, but like I’m, I am imagining a scenario, like you’re talking about this, like, if you have a website and like you’re wanting to, you know, render things and, and not having to have, you know, the, the different c files for each processor, right. And then have a different, like, you know, um, you know, send, you know, thing at the top to basically, I guess like define it, right? Like to basically just have that kind of bundled in, like with, with your blog editor or, or whatever. Like you can be like, all right, whatever, whatever. Now I can know whatever markdown file I’m throwing in here, it’s gonna render the way that it’s intended to. Brett: I’m thinking about writing a Jekyll extension to make it a default renderer for Jekyll as well, because it can handle pretty much like, I have to see how it handles liquid syntax in com in compatibility with Jekyll. But anyway, yeah. Christina: No, but that, but that, that, but that could be cool too. ’cause [01:01:00] to your point, like if you have that, like if it’s Jekyll or some other, you know, you know, um, a blog engine or whatever with whether it’s, you know, static site thing or WordPress or whatever, like, then you could just be like, okay, I could take this thing from obsidian, or I could take this thing from something else and, and drop it in and have it render and know that it’s gonna render the right way. And I don’t have to worry, do I have a plugin installed? Am I formatting this the right way? Like, whatever the case may be, or if, if this takes off, right? Like for, for LLMs, if they’re, you know, coming up with stuff, you know, to go in whatever, you know, JavaScript framework, you know, you want, like not having to worry about, okay, get another thing to, to, to bundle on top of something. Brett: I get so many support requests these days from people who copy pasted chat, GPTs, markdown, output, and chat. GPD honestly doesn’t really understand markdown. Um, and, but they get this, they, they didn’t write it. They just assume it will work, and they have no idea what processor it needs. So they don’t even know what choice to [01:02:00] make because they weren’t really part of generating the syntax to begin Christina: Oh yeah, that’s a great point. Yeah. Which, which, yeah, it’s a problem, right? Because it then it’s gonna be with whatever chat GBT saw, and in most cases it is probably gonna be GitHub flavored markdown. ’cause that’s what most of things are. But it might be older, right? It depends on what it is. It may, it’s crammed down. Maybe it’s, you know, something else may, Brett: Maybe it’s bar ruku Christina: yeah, maybe it’s, maybe it’s something that made up, Brett: Che GPT. Yeah. Sometimes makes up, uh, its own syntax. And people will be like, why doesn’t this work? And I’ll be like, I have never seen this Christina: this does not actually exist, Brett: I don’t think this is. Christina: This, this is not a valid markdown Brett: if you can show me where this does work, I can help you figure out how to make it work in Marked, but I don’t think it works anywhere. Christina: No, it probably doesn’t. ’cause what’s happening is that it’s, you know, it’s generating things based on what it thinks the rules are, but it’s not being given anything. Although now this makes me think this would be a cool thing, like to use with Claude skills or something where you could maybe point Claude skills to this [01:03:00] library and basically be like, render, you know, markdown that I’m requesting you and render using this library. Right. So then you, then, then, then you could know like definitively, like on a, on a, you know, reproducible basis that it’s going to, to do that. But like, like, use this processor. But that way you don’t have to have like separate rules and everything set up for each, for Brett: it has a, it has a full CAPI. And can, and the build system will generate Xcode frameworks for you. Um, so this could be easily incorporated into, you know, your favorite, uh, app. You could ask them to like, oh, can we switch from Carbon Meck to Apex? And then I can use all my syntax in your app. Yeah, Christina: No, I think that would be sick. Brett: I’m pretty excited about it. I, I hope it, I hope it takes off. We’ll see. Christina: great. Yeah. When, when, when you’re, once you have a blog post and stuff on this, um, you should submit this to Hacker News, [01:04:00] or, or let me know and I’ll, I’ll submit it to Brett: I’m gonna, I’m gonna send a copy to Gruber and see what he thinks he Gruber is very, um, particular about what markdown flavors he will endorse, and I’ve never quite figured out. Where the line is for him. Like he, he, he loves GitHub flavor markdown. He hates multi markdown. Um, and like there’s reasoning behind it isn’t always, um, consistent. And, and so I, he may, he may hate Apex, he may think it’s worth mentioning on his huge social platforms. We’ll find out anyway. Anyway. All right. Do you guys wanna fit in a quick aptitude or are we skipping it? Christina: If we wanna, if we can go real fast, we can do rapid lightning round, I think that’d Brett: Yeah, rapid lightning round. I’ll kick it off. I found this app a while ago [01:05:00] called Indigo, and it is a bare metal map app for Mac where like for serving virtual websites and you load it up, you create a stack, which is like Nginx or Apache, and then PHP, um, and you can add MySQL or post post Postgres and like you build like whatever stack you need for an app and then you add a virtual website to it and then it just serves it up on your machine. And you can go to your, your local virtual website, I, uh, URL and see your directory served. And like, this is what I used to do with M and virtual host X, neither of which are working for me very well anymore. Uh, VIR virtual host is unsupported at this point, and map is kind of. It just doesn’t work for me anymore. Christina: And, and, and it’s been kind of an abandoned wear state, like [01:06:00] where they continue to charge money for it for years. And I haven’t looked into it since the Apple silicon transition, but they didn’t handle it. But even before that transition, I kind of, and I paid for it for years, and I was like, I’m not paying for, and I was like, I’m not paying for upgrades anymore. Like you’re not actually actively developing stuff, and I’m new to. Brett: oh, go ahead. Sorry. Christina: I was gonna say, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve tried other solutions, like there was local, there are a few other things, but none that do what you’re talking about where you could just, you know, point it at a local URL and have it served Brett: Yeah. Um, and Indigo, you can run for free. It will constantly remind you about upgrading, but I have not paid for it yet. Um, I’m waiting to see how active development remains. Uh, if. If, because it kind of, it started strong and then it kind of plateaued. And I’m not, I’m not a hundred percent sure it’s gonna last yet. Uh, it’s the best solution I have for now. And if it looks like development will continue, I will gladly pay for it. Christina: Totally, totally. Yeah. That was gonna be my [01:07:00] question for you. ’cause I looked at this, uh, I, sorry, I know we’re supposed to go short, but, ’cause I, but I, but I was looking at this when, when, um, I was reading the notes in advance and I was like, is development still active? Because I’ll use it for free, but before I drop down 80 bucks a year or whatever it is they want, I wanna actually know that this is being actively worked on. Brett: Yeah. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll update, I’ll update you in a few months and see if they, uh, if they’re updating, but, all right. That’s it. Jeff: Awesome. I’ll do my lightning round. It’s the same thing I always do, which is come up with something that I, I used, uh, five years ago, but I’m using again. So I was doing a writing project for work. It was really complex. I was making a bunch of tabs in, in Google Docs, which by the way, generally I love the feature, but what it’s not as scripter, and it was such a complex thing I was trying to work on, and it was like this client that has. Like a ridiculous amount of like, frameworks, language, and uh, and I needed to be able to move it around, whatever. And I’m like, this happens to me every couple years. I’m like, this sucks. I’m having such a hard time. Scrivener and Writing Tools Jeff: I was like, oh, fucking Scrivener. So I opened up [01:08:00] Scrivener. I have no idea what’s changed in Scrivener ’cause I use it the same way every time. Um, but God bless Scrivener. And I think what I’m gonna do this time, one of my new favorite things to use AI for is to take a change log when I haven’t used something in like two years. Throw the change, log in and being like, give me five things I need to try with very blatant steps. So maybe I need to do Scrivener. But anyway, it remains, there’s nothing, there’s nothing else. I mean, I know there’s people that will say, you could do this, this, this, but for me there’s nothing else. And, uh, and also works with the new marked in extra special ways as I imagine, uh, much like my grandma’s handwriting. Brett: Yeah, Christina: And, Brett: Mark’s. Mark Scrivener integration is completely rewritten. All native can handle all kinds of new, uh, document formats, uh, in a way that you don’t have to think about. You just drag your Scribner file on and it should just render. But Christina: Amazing. Brett: I would love it if people would test that out Jeff: I’ll test it out today actually, ’cause I’m using it. Christina: Amazing. Yeah, no, I think [01:09:00] I, I think, um, I think, um, what, what was I gonna say? Uh, yeah, Scribner is, is great. Um, I, I have bitched about this before. I think last time we talked about this, I wish that the way that they handled, like cloud kind of stuff, Jeff: Oh my God, Christina: was better, but, but like, Jeff: collaborate a little Christina: yeah. Like, or, or just have like a built in like way of, you know, the, like the, the, the, the way that it works right now, it’s not ideal, but, but like, it is such a good app and, and I am like very happy with, with, with what they’ve done. And I, I just looked back like, I bought 3.0, I think as soon as 3.0 came out, that was in 2018. Like, Jeff: Yeah, Christina: I, I almost feel bad that that was, it was like May 21st, 2018 was the last time I bought it. And I think before that I bought it in. Like 2014, um, or, or, or 2013. So I, anyway, they, they provide updates for probably too long. Um, but, but Scribner’s awesome. Jeff: yeah, Brett: I don’t know how to [01:10:00] pronounce the developer’s name, but I think it’s ioa IOA. Christina: yeah, Jeff: you have them on? Uh, Systematic, I remember that was how I learned about Scrivener. Christina: yeah. Literature and, yeah, literature and, and Latte is the company name, but I don’t know how to, how you pronounce them. The, the, the developer’s name, but No, but they’re, um, but they’re, they’re, they’re great people. And, um, Brett: Yeah. Very cool. And they’ve given me Scribner for free for years now, so I could work on marked integration, Christina: Amazing. Amazing. Well, and like, honestly, they do great stuff. Uh, one thing just real quickly, I, I know we’re supposed to be super fast, but this was annoying. Um, uh, uh, uh, Kirkham, uh, mle, um, who, uh, I think a, a number of us know who, uh, who writes for the Scribner blog. Um, and he was like, he’s been a long time, like, like Mac, um, uh, writer, I think he wrote, wrote for like Mac Tips and, and Mac World and places like that, Brett: tidbits, I Christina: tidbits he had. Yeah. Um, a great guy. Um, he, uh, this sucks. Uh, they had to like have a whole thing on their blog vault. Why do I see AI prompts in my Scrivener projects on Mac? There’s no AI [01:11:00] with Scrivener at all, but, but. Brett: tools. Christina: Correct, correct. And so, and, but, but understandably, many people of the core Scribner audience are gonna be very, very sensitive to seeing any AI shit. And so simply by having these, because if you’re using a, if you build a native app, Mac app the right way, and you use like, you know, native like the text fields, then like the, the, the bullshit AI writing stuff that is, look, if it were useful, I wouldn’t even be mad at it, but it’s not useful. So that’s where I get pissed off. Like, honestly, that’s where my consternation comes in. But, uh, but um, someone in a group chat that I’m in was like, imagine having to like do a blog post to like, explain why your operating system is doing this and not your app. Jeff: yeah. Christina: Like, that’s, that’s, that’s, that, that’s, that’s gross. Anyway. Um. Uh, but, but they’re, they’re, they’re great people. Um, and I will be quick this time. I promise I’ve made us go long. But, uh, my pick is, uh, is Helium. Helium Browser and Privacy Features Christina: We’ve talked a bunch about, uh, alternative web browsers. And Helium [01:12:00] computer is, uh, where you can get this, it is in, um, beta right now for, for for Mac. Um, and I, and I think they’re gonna be coming to other platforms, but it’s basically kind of a privacy focused. Um, a chrome fork and, um, or, or chromium browser is not really a fork. Um, and the whole thing, like it has built-in, like you block origin, it has, uh, ka e as the default, uh, search engine. But, um, like so there’s no adware, no bloat, no noise. It’s, it’s fully open source. Um, the people who make this are the same people who make Cobalt tools, which are like the web-based tools for converting anything like, like from any format to any format that is not actually just a total FF eg front end. Like the way that they do the YouTube video conversion doesn’t actually use YY 2D LP. Um, it, it’s actually pretty, pretty cool, but I think I’ve mentioned cobalt tools on, uh, on over tire before. Uh, yeah, no, but helium, uh, computer, I really like it. The thing I really like about it is that it has, um, the, this, this bangs feature where, uh, which is something that, that, uh, Kagy can do. [01:13:00] But, um, I think that arc let you do this too, where you can basically do like, you know, um, bang, you know, like, um, uh, K or bang kagy to search kagy bang gh to search GitHub bang W Brett: duck, duck. Go. Christina: Yeah, basically it has all those things, but it has support for, for more of them too. So you can choose which ones you wanna install, but like, that’s built in by default, which I think is really nice. Um, and anyway, I, I, I like it. Like we, we’ve, we’ve talked about, um, alternative browsers here quite a bit in the past. Um, it is available, no auto updates yet for Windows, and there’s an app image for Linux, but it’s. The primary way that this is, I think, being actively developed is on, um, Mac Os, but it’s, it’s, um, it’s based on, on Google chromium, but then they’re adding in like other stuff to it. But anyway, um, for people who are looking at wanting to check out a, a, you know, a Chrome compatible alternative browser, um, Brett: that doesn’t support bra politics. Sure. Christina: Right, exactly. Exactly. Bing Delisting Incident Brett: Um, side note, um, I we’re, I know we’re [01:14:00] so far over, but, um, I, uh, a month ago got delisted from Bing, um, like my website just, there were zero results from Brett turre.com, which also meant that I didn’t show up on Duck dot go anymore ’cause that’s where they source their results from. And um, and I had no idea why this has happened. And, um, they still had the bang turp. Uh, like I have my own bang Jeff: That’s right. Brett: dot go. Um, and that, that still worked, but my website was no longer there. Um, so I started doing all the debugging. I found, uh, six or seven other bloggers that had had the same thing happen, and some of them got an explanation, most of them didn’t. I finally got a response from Bing Webmaster Tools and they said they were going to review it and it would take a couple weeks. It took a couple weeks, and then they sent me an email that said, oh, you’re good. [01:15:00] And all of a sudden I was back and they explained nothing. I have no idea why I was suddenly delisted and summarily restored, Jeff: Wow, Brett: um, but the nightmare is over. I’m back now. Jeff: Welcome back, Brett. Brett: Thank you. Christina: back. Brett: Thanks everybody. Jeff: You should also get some sleep. Christina: Yes. Get some sleep. Brett: Get some Jeff: to talk to you all. Christina: Yeah, likewise, likewise. See you guys all later. Bye. Jeff: Bye.

Jeff and Brett are joined by Merlin Mann, who brings his usual blend of humor and chaos, including witty takes on knife-brandishing, app issues, and nostalgic TV shows. They discuss everything from kids growing up to intense medical appointments. The trio dives into language usage pet peeves and the weird world of higher education, touching on family, technology, and just how much they can all survive. Entertaining and, as always overtired. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Show Links Max Richter Four Seasons Anne Sophie-Mutter Vivaldi Summer Tilt table test Another State of Mind Merlin’s Wisdom Project Kiss on Tom Snyder Guitar Moves series Iggy Pop on Tom Snyder Merlin’s An Epicenter of Wordsmithing (Usage I Dislike) Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome 00:30 Technical Difficulties and Knife Jokes 01:54 Music and TV Show Discussions 06:48 Health Issues and Personal Stories 21:51 Disability and Aging Reflections 30:18 Ian Mackaye and Punk Stories 32:42 Ian McKay’s Hilarious SUV Game 33:31 Cross Country Team Shenanigans 34:30 Discussing Music Preferences 38:26 Shopify Sponsorship Segment 41:03 College Life Challenges 53:20 The Wisdom Project and Life Advice 01:06:18 Guitar Moves with Matt Sweeney 01:08:06 Ace Frehley and KISS Trivia 01:09:03 Tom Snyder Interviews and Iggy Pop 01:09:32 Wendy O. Williams and Milwaukee Riot 01:11:20 Taskmaster and Playlists 01:20:03 Grammar and Usage Pet Peeves 01:30:47 Derry Girls and TV Recommendations 01:36:21 Concluding Thoughts and Sign-Off Join the Conversation Merch! Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Chekov’s Roast Introduction and Guest Welcome Jeff: [00:00:00] is the Overtired podcast. I am Jeff Severance. Gunzel. Uh, we have Brett Terpstra. Christina is not here this week, and we have a very special guest who’s brandishing a knife? Merlin Mann. Welcome Merlin Mann. Merlin: Brandish. Hi guys. Thanks for having me. Jeff: You’re welcome. Merlin: Nice to be here. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Merlin: Oh, sorry. Should I be funnier? Should I be funnier? Oh, I’m sorry. Jeff: Dance monkey? Merlin: Let’s see. Technical Difficulties and Knife Jokes Merlin: It’s, uh, 22 minutes after D Oh, last 50 minutes trying to get connected to your cockamamie series of apps. And now I’m the weird guy playing with a knife. F am I Jeff: Fucking weirdo. Merlin: Oh, hey. Hey guys. Thanks. I, I, I’m gonna figure out what, what I, what I’ve done to Christine someday. I’m not sure I wanna know at this point, but I don’t know why I Brett: miss your last one too? Merlin: I think I’ve talked to Christine twice in the last Brett: We, we call you, we call you when Christina can’t make it. ’cause you, Merlin: make sure you call her Christina. I, I You called her Christine earlier. [00:01:00] No, I, I, I, I misspoke. Brett: you’re, you’re, you’re like the perfect fill for Christina. You, you both can opine about, just about any topic. Merlin: Mm-hmm. Brett: Elaborate. Merlin: I just, I wanna be Jeff: or elaborate? Brett: Yes. Merlin: I want to be supportive to whatever it is that you guys want to do. ’cause you both seem a little bit, now the, the listener cannot see, they’ve, oh, by the way, we’re, I, I can see you guys and myself on video, which I did not know at 10 0 6 this morning. Um, I wanna be supportive ’cause you guys both look like you’re physically and emotionally falling apart. Since I got on this call with your cockamamie app, did you know there’s a separate cockamamie app, uh, you could also use instead of Chrome or Vivaldi? Then it wouldn’t let me, it said there all because I got the sparkle update on that and that had an error. So I went back to Vivaldi. Steven, I know you’ll listen and you’re gonna hear me bitching about the goddamn app. Hey guys. Music and TV Show Discussions Jeff: Have you ever listened to the, to the Max Richter, uh, recomposed of the Four Seasons? Merlin: Yeah, it’s [00:02:00] really pretty. I do, I do. I like it a lot. I think it’s, I think it’s really pretty and I like the way that it, like hints at elements that you’ll like, even if you aren’t, don’t know if, if you don’t think you’re familiar with the Four Seasons or you might be a little familiar with the Four Seasons, like you’ve heard it having brunch when you used to have money, that kind of thing. Uh, the way that it just kind of weaves in and out. I think it’s really pretty. I think he’s a very interesting person. Jeff: is very interesting. Merlin: were watching, uh, the Leftovers, which is a big rewatch for my wife and me in a first time for my lackadaisical team. And every time that gorgeous theme comes on, he, he doesn’t even look up from his phone. He goes, get another theme. Jeff: that’s a Merlin: Because as of yesterday, my child is 18 years of age. Brett: my, so. Jeff: as Wait, what? As of yesterday, my son is 17. Merlin: 10, Jeff: no, as of Saturday, as of yesterday, my brother is 55. Merlin: I do that, I do that. Brett: my partner’s dad has been dead for Jeff: we cheese. Brett: Um, Merlin: No shit. As [00:03:00] of October, uh, as of, wait a minute, as of two days from now on, my father will have been dead for 51 years. So that’s a feather in your cap. Brett: You guys have, you, you guys have paternal death day anniversaries near each other. I should Merlin: Title Brett: Um, Jeff: Paternal death days. Brett: um, Merlin: Death Day is the worst. Tom Cruise movie. Brett: I’m a big, I’m a big fan of audio design in, um, TV shows and when it’s done well, it’s amazing. And the, the thing that’s. That really got me going right now is the, like intro song for interview with the vampire. The, the song is so discordant. It makes you feel like vomiting. Jeff: huh? Brett: crazy. Merlin: It’s so what? Brett: So discordant, it makes you feel like vomiting. It’s just this five seconds of like, like every instrument in the orchestra [00:04:00] being tuned simultaneously. Merlin: Ooh. Brett: Yeah. It’s wild. Merlin: Do you think it’s effective? Is it, is it Brett: sets the stage. Merlin: I filled that with Christopher, uh, Nolan. Brett: Yeah. Merlin: Like he’s, he said, or, you know, like the Johnny Greenwood soundtrack and that, uh, Winick Oil movie, the PSH movie. Um, Johnny, uh, uh, no Country for Old Oil cans. Uh, there will be Blood. There will be Blood. It’s got that, that could be John Green Johnny Greenwood soundtrack. You think it’s effective though? It, Brett: Oh my God. Merlin: yeah. I, it’s, um, I remember this is a phenomenon. I remember first noticing, and I, every time I say this, I feel like I, I sound like I’m trying to be fancy and I’m not, but like, I, I like everybody, you know, I grew up watching tv. I watched, I loved Law and Order in the nineties. I would watch it all day on a and e while I was making web pages, but after I watched The Wire. After I had like, uh, shotgunned a lot of the wire, it became more and more difficult to go back to regular procedurals with the same frame of mind. Now if you’re folding [00:05:00] laundry or you’re in a hotel room or whatever, you can always get back in that frame of mind. But for me, that’s like task Master and Survivor right now where I watch so much Task Master that Survivor, where the challenges have been getting less important over time and it’s really more about the drama. But you know how it is. Do you know what I’m talking about though? You get into something and then other stuff starts to feel like kind of a pale Jeff: Well, Deadwood and other westerns with a couple of exceptions. Merlin: deadwood’s pretty spec, especially those first three episodes. Jeff: oh Brett: see Wayward? Jeff: No, Merlin: No. Is it good? Brett: It’s so good. That was, that one made all other shows pale for me for the three days it took us to binge Merlin: Netflix? I feel like it’s been, oh wait, is it with, uh, is it with Tony Colette? No. Who’s in Brett: May. It’s May. What’s her name from the handsome podcast? What’s their name? Um, Merlin: Oh, Mae Martin. Brett: Yeah. Merlin: Who was also on taskmaster. She, they, God, my, so I, I think I knew of Mae Martin when they were less commonly known as they, and now [00:06:00] my wife keeps correcting me. Yes. Uh, I could not get with that. I could not get with the dialogue. There’s a lot of, as you know, Bob, but my wife loved it. Brett: I loved it. Merlin: Well, as you know, we’re in a relationship and this is the house that we’re going to be Jeff: What about complimentary shows? Right now my wife and I are watching Slow Horses and the Diplomat at the same time, Merlin: Oh man. That Hal is a stinker. What are we gonna do with Hal Brett? Do you watch a lot of tv? Brett: do, Merlin: Yeah. Um, Hal’s a Stinker. I love that show. Did you know the Jeff: are you watching the current season because you meet Todd. Todd, Merlin: is that, is that the, the, the. Jeff: the first man Merlin: I love, I love Todd. And when he bleeds on the oysters, it really Jeff: Amazing. Brett, you Merlin: Anyway. Health Issues and Personal Stories Merlin: Hey everybody, it’s Overtired and Christina, ie. Is not here. Brett: should we do a, should we do a quick check-in? We don’t have to spend a whole episode on it. It tends to bleed over either [00:07:00] way. Merlin: made a Hitler mustache outta my Jeff: that. Don’t do it. Merlin: Isn’t that kind of funny? This is my last territorial demand. Jeff: did that for a minute. Merlin: Ann Ecstasy, Dayton land. Brett: to that end, I will just say I’ve been up since 2:00 AM I Jeff: is what your head sounds like. Brett: I have added time tracking and plugin architecture to my NA project and set up Merlin: Not applicable project. Brett: next action project, um, and, and have also spun up a server to handle payment processing for Mark three all in the last 48 hours Merlin: Mark three super recent? Is it super recent Brett: not out yet. Merlin: I, okay, Jeff: It’s Brett: coming In the next couple weeks, the beta will be out, Merlin: well ask me why. I know. I’ll tell you why. Because I wanted to go do something with Mark and I couldn’t figure it out and I was trying to change something [00:08:00] and um, and then I was searching around and then I did a search and I searched on marked, and then I saw Mark three and I went there and I kept clicking on stuff and it didn’t go Brett: I know, I I, put that, Jeff: did that same thing. Brett: I Merlin: Also, you still can’t hide style sheets. You don’t wanna see Brett: I put that website up. You, you just remove them. It’s in preferences. Merlin: Amblin Brett: oh, you can’t, you can’t remove the default Merlin: Oh, are those style sheets? Did I get that wrong? Brett: They’re styles. Um, Merlin: What if I wanted my numbered ones to go to the ones that I want instead of having to use the extra medic key? Brett: um, Jeff: Mm, feedback. Brett: I will, I will take that under Merlin: I am Brett. I don’t sleep. Meet mo. Meet mo. Brett: I put that website up, um, as a placeholder while Merlin: They gobble it up fast, don’t they? Brett: and I, I, uh, I put, I put no index on it and it still got picked up by all the search engines. Merlin: Oh, that’s such a bummer. Oh, that sucks. Brett: I either I can just take it down, but it’s [00:09:00] so Merlin: No, it looks pretty. I’m looking forward to it. Sign me up, man. I’m ready. Jeff: I’m excited. Merlin: Is set up. Okay. Am I okay to use set up? Brett: Oh yeah. Merlin: I’m gonna say this in a way that I, I normally don’t, ’cause I actually really usually don’t care. You’re, you’re a grown man. You can decide what programs you want to be in. Am I, I’m not harming developers, but you. Am I harming? Am Jeff: great, Brett has a great, take on this. I asked him early on. Brett: half my income comes from set and it’s sustained repeatable income that like I didn’t have to put out of subscription based Merlin: Is it based on seats? Is it based on number of installations? Brett: It’s based on usage. Jeff: It’s based on how long it’s Brett: every, every time you, every time you open the app, the developer gets a little bit. Um, and then for apps like say default folder X that are always running, um, it, it, it has different, um, calculations Merlin: to feel bad about using Brett: No, no, Jeff: I just opened, I just opened, marked. Did you get a [00:10:00] little cha-ching sound in there? Merlin: got, he has a bespoke separate stream deck that just lets him know when he needs Six Sense. It’s called, it’s called the Spotify plugin. Brett: See the new stream deck software? Jeff: No, sir. Merlin: Stream deck software where you can’t quit it with, you can’t get it out of the forward facing app without quitting the whole fucking app, that app. Jeff: Ooh. Merlin: Okay. No, I Brett: they just released an 800 megabyte update that adds a whole bunch of stuff, including a virtual stream deck. And, um, you can now apply single double and Long press taps to every button on your Merlin: Really? Oh my Jeff: like, no matter how old your stream deck, Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Hmm, Merlin: on 7 0 3. Checking for updates. All right, well I’m gonna check that out. Thank you, Brett. I’m gonna write that down. You have my Brett: for my check-in. Merlin: Goodnight everybody. Da. Brett: Thank Jeff: Your check-in has been up since two and, uh, getting shit done Brett: Oh, I should mention, um, I found a new [00:11:00] doctor that is a specialist in POTS and EDS and dismia and, Jeff: in Winona, Brett: yeah. Um, lives in lacrosse. Practices in lacrosse, but comes to Winona, like on Thursdays and Jeff: Lacrosse is Wisconsin Merlin: post organizational tit syndrome. Brett: Yes. Um, the. Jeff: they used to call it that. Brett: Lacrosse is known as the drunkest city in the u in the us but, uh, pots is post postural ortho something, tachycardia syndrome but um, Jeff: Is it like a purely POTS doctor? Brett: um, her specialty, she’s, she’s an np Merlin: it on the sign. Purely Brett: and her specialty is pots above all else, but she is very well versed in all autonomic function disorders. Um, so she ordered like [00:12:00] 15 vials of blood, Merlin: What? That’s a lot of blood. Brett: I have never had a problem having blood drawn before. I have no fear Jeff: But 15 vials was a Brett: don’t Merlin: When I was in the hospital, I don’t think I ever Brett: I passed out. It’s the first time I’ve ever Merlin: From not enough Brett: out from blood. Merlin: So like that’s like more than giving Jeff: I think they call Brett: I don’t, I don’t know if that’s true and I don’t know if I might have just had some kind of vagus nerve reaction to you Merlin: I gotta learn more Brett: 10. I passed out after 10 vials, and Merlin: Oh no, Brett. Well that must have made it easier to get the rest. Brett: well they said, I, when I came to and I was like cracking jokes with the, with the people there. They’re like, oh, we can just, you know, take the 10 vials we have and spread them out across 15. I’m like, what? Merlin: just basic science. Why did he do it with three? Brett: but they also had me do Merlin: You sure you went to regular science doctor school? Jeff: a what? A what Table test. Brett: A tilt [00:13:00] table test. They like, they lay you on a table, they for like 10 minutes and they take your blood pressure every minute and then the table tilts up to 70 degrees and you have to stand there for 15 minutes at 70 degrees while they take your blood Jeff: Wait, stand. Stand on the table. You’re standing on the table. Brett: the table tilts. Merlin: Okay, so, so, so my hand, my hand, is, that’s 90. And so then it goes like this. So you’re at a slight. Okay. And so is it, is it sort of like how some people pass out because they stood up too fast? It’s a way to Brett: That’s what, that’s what pots. Is. Pots. Pots is Merlin: Oh, so it’s not your, it’s not your all, it’s not your fucked up brain. It’s your body. Oh shit, I didn’t Brett: And cause I started passing out, I would stand up and I would just pass out. Um, and that’s pots. So the tilt table was supposed to help determine what kind of pots I have. I passed, I, I, the tilt table test revealed nothing. [00:14:00] So the fact is I do pass out. The fact is, every time I stand up, I get dizzy and have to sit back down. But the tilt table said I, I was normal. So now we have to figure out what all that means. I have another appointment with my doctor in a week. Jeff: Tilt table test. It looks, I mean, it literally looks like Frankenstein, Brett: Yeah, Merlin: it, is it, but Jeff: that Frankenstein’s the Merlin: in a fairly short period of time, you realized that you would get like, what do they call it? Syncope. Like you would get dizzy and then sometimes pa you would, would you actually pass like loose consciousness? Brett: I have passed out five times. I’ve gone to full unconsciousness, but, Merlin: You know who hates that? Is the people who are in the room with you when that Brett: Yeah, they Jeff: like your, like your male person. Merlin: Yeah. Or your female Jeff: no, is, this is a good story. Brett: I went to the door. My, the, the male person rang the doorbell and I went to the door to answer it, and I opened the door and she hands me the packages and I faint. [00:15:00] she, she’s, she’s about a foot shorter than me, but she Merlin: Just seeing Lucille on Arrested Development, he just keep passing out. Brett: she, she shoulders me into the Merlin: no, Brett: and lowers me with her shoulder. And then I woke up on the floor. But she had prevented me from like, crashing my head or anything. Um, it was, Um, it was, some fast, right, Merlin: that’s so cool. Jeff: crazy. Brett: heroes of the US Mail Service. Um, but yeah, like I was passing out all the time kind of, and then. I got way better at recognizing when it was going to happen. So I would just immediately sit back down or take a knee, Merlin: Be because of, because of how you felt or because of conditions. Brett: Um, I it, you know, I’m sure you’ve gotten lightheaded when you Merlin: Oh, no, no, no. I, no, I’m, I’m just, I mean, like, ’cause I’ve, I’ve wondered about stuff like this too, where like, you know, one thing I, this is not a joke. Like, I’m 50 something, I’m [00:16:00] 58, I’ll be 59 next month. And like, I really, I do worry about like, my eyesight’s not as good and I worry about falling down, tripping on things. And I don’t wanna be like a kook about it or make my family put me in. They’ll never put me in a home. They’ll just drive me to the emergency room, cut the tags outta my clothes, probably. But it’s your problem now. Hong Kong off to college. But, um, but, but no, I, I, I worry about that stuff too. So I guess I just mean like, ’cause like the thing is when you go out, it happens so fast. You do, you get tunnel vision first. Yeah, Okay. Brett: it, but Merlin: I hate that feeling. I hate that feeling Brett: I go from like woozy to tunnel vision to passed out in about six seconds. Merlin: Well, the way I would put that is I go, you what’s happened to me? I ha that has happened to me a few times. Mostly when I’ve had way too much weed. Um, but you go from, everything’s fine to, this is weird to a woman is screaming in your face that, should I call 9 1 1 is the way that it feels, which is, it feels like the same way, that it’s not very fair to blame me for snoring. If I’m asleep and I don’t know I’m doing it. I didn’t [00:17:00] know I was gonna pass out. Brett: I never pass out for more than a few seconds. But when I come to you, I’ve had entire dreams, like in those few seconds, like, I don’t know if my brain like backfills subconscious thoughts or what, but I’ll come to, and I’ll feel like I just had a good dream and it, well, I’ll be like, how long was I out? Was that like half an hour? And be like, no, you literally just fell out and then woke up. Jeff: wow. When I Merlin: how, I wonder if that’s what it’s like to die. Wouldn’t it be amazing if it was that easy? It’d Jeff: When I was 18, I stood up too fast. I passed out and I woke up in a ball saying the name Michael Jackson. Brett: Huh? How much, how, how, how, how many drugs were involved with Jeff: Zero Jo. I didn’t, I I’ve, I’ve Merlin: He was very popular. Brett, he was on the radio all the time, always on the radio. Jeff: Always on the radio. Yeah. Oh, Michael Jackson. Totally. And then I had MTV, he was on that. Merlin: Oh yeah. He was, and he actually, he at one point apologized to Darrel Hall for the extent to which he lifted [00:18:00] parts of what became Billy Jean Jeff: But he was only on MTV, uh, as part of a package deal with Rocket by Quincy Jones. Merlin: Rocket Jeff: weren’t putting black artists on. And so the record label was like, you’re putting rocket on, Merlin: But then Darryl Hall said, I forgive you. We all do it. But think, think about that Billie Jean. Think about how much it sounds like, um, Jeff: Oh Merlin: I can’t go for that. No, can Jeff: true. That’s true. I assume there’s a mashup Merlin: I’m sorry, Brett. That must, that sounds stressful. That’s, that’s really stressful. Brett: Yeah. It’s been a rough year and a half now. Jeff: Is it, is it like basically stabilized or is it you, have you learned just to be careful? Brett: I, I’ve learned to be careful. I’ve learned like the treatment, the drug they treat pots with is Vyvanse, which I already take, so that worked out well. Merlin: I wish it did anything. Brett: the other, Merlin: I had one an hour ago. I’m still apparently Brett: the other treatment is to drink two to three liters of water with five grams of salt a day. [00:19:00] Um, so I Jeff: much is five grams of salt, Brett: It’s, it weighs about five grams. Um, Jeff: That doesn’t help me. Brett: uh, you know, those liquid IVs, those little packets of Jeff: oh, yeah, yeah. Brett: those are 500 milligrams. Jeff: Got it. Okay. Thank you. That’s all I Merlin: this is the beauty of metric is ’cause they all, they’re all kind of the same Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: so Merlin: the weights, and the volumes. It makes a lot more sense. Jeff: I’m into it. I’m just not gonna learn it. Sorry, go Brett: element spelled LMNT, and that is one gram of salt per little packet. So I really, I just drink five of those a day. Jeff: okay. Got it. Merlin: Oh, I see, I see, I Jeff: makes sense. And that helps. Brett: Yeah, Merlin: The additional salt, Brett: yeah. It, it, so I don’t understand what this means. Merlin: controlled for a typical blood pre. I see. I don’t know a ton about this, but I’ve got high, I’ve got high Brett: the thing is the salt doesn’t change my blood pressure. If anything, [00:20:00] my blood pressure has gone down significantly since I started doing the salt. Um, but what it does supposedly is increase your blood volume. And I don’t know what that means or how it works, but by increasing your blood volume, it means your legs have to work less to pump blood to your brain when you stand up. So. You’re basically just keeping your, it’s not blood Merlin: Or if it’s making more of it or make no, yeah, no, it’s, it’s really confusing. ’cause like if you, if you stop to think about everybody, you, we use these words all the time, but if you were to like pop quiz somebody on the subway and go, well, like, tell me about the difference between heart rate and blood pressure and all these things. It’s, you get a little confused. But blood volume, it’s, that’s, I mean, volume is what it says on the tin. It’s either getting more, it’s either more of it or it’s more like, sort of dense. You’re topping it off, you’re topping off your leg tank. Brett: I guess Yeah. But it works. It helps. Jeff: Hmm. Merlin: Uh, I’m sorry [00:21:00] man. Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: You don’t need one more thing. Nobody needs one more Jeff: Nobody needs one more thing. Brett: But it, so insomnia is apparently a symptom of justia too. Merlin: yeah, no, I mean, you, you, you having insomnia, you having sleeping problems. That’s odd. You should get a podcast. Jeff: You should, Brett: All right. Jeff: man. Wow. It’s fucking crazy. Weren’t you scooting down the stairs on your butt for a while? ’cause you were afraid of passing Brett: Yeah. Well, I had to crawl Merlin: What can a man just Scoot Scoot down the stairs on his butt? ’cause it’s fun. Why do we need a reason for everything? Brett: I had to crawl from the couch to my bed on multiple occasions because I couldn’t stand up for even five seconds. Merlin: Oh my gosh. Oh, that is, that must have felt in the moment. So, panicky, scary. Brett: Panicky. Scary. Disability and Aging Reflections Brett: And also, like, I don’t like the feeling of being disabled. And what I’ve been dealing with for the last year and a half is [00:22:00] coming to accept that I am now disabled, um, between like multiple bouts of extremely rapid weight gain and my back going out Merlin: Oh my gosh, Brett: pots and. And all of the things that have kind of, uh, floor, uh, like knocked me out of everyday life. Um, and I, in my head I’m like, I’ll, I’ll just, I’ll get healthy again and everything will be fine. And I’m coming to realize Merlin: that’s a young man’s conjecture really. It really, no, no. I mean it’s, it’s super duper is, and it’s why it kind of bums me out that, that we look at disabled, that word as a binary and it’s, it bums me out. And not in the typical like boo don’t be ableist way, but in honestly practical way of like, well, sometimes you know what, even a little kid isn’t feeling as good today as another day, and some kids are better at climbing a rope and some kids can hold their pee and some kids can’t. And like [00:23:00] through your entire life you encounter all this stuff. And if there’s anything that fucks us up, in my opinion. This is not a criticism of people who are young or of the concept of youth because I did the same thing. But you don’t understand that youth is the anomaly. Youth is the temporary condition you have. Absolutely. You have absolutely no way of knowing. So if, so, I’m sorry. Let me take a step back and I, I promise I’m trying to be supportive here, Brett. This, I’m not trying to like hijack your topic, but it’s frustrating to me when people act like, uh, we could call it aging. You know what I would call it, I would call it still being alive. Jeff: Uhhuh. Merlin: Still being alive. I mean, it, it is anomalous in the sense that most people who’ve lived are dead. But that’s why you fucking people should be really happy to be alive and seek out things that make you feel better about life rather than things that make you feel, ugh. Fucking people. With that said, um, the. The anomaly is the youth part. And you would have no way to know that ’cause you’ve never been anything but young. And so Brett, if I could say like, I used to [00:24:00] talk, I used to say like, I always used to feel more like Spider-Man or Wolverine, where I had this healing factor where like, I could drink coffee at 11 and be up at 5:00 AM or you know, whatever. I could always bounce back. My bounce backs were really, really quick. And, um, because that’s what it is to be young. Really that’s not any special trick. I mean, that’s like, think it’s, it is a superpower to be able to reach things on a shelf. And you’re like, well, yeah, well that person’s six four. That’s why they can do that. That’s what’s called what’s called being taller. That’s what height is. In that case though, what you can’t realize and won’t realize, and don’t worry, you’re, you’re gonna learn all this later, people, you don’t need to listen to me and you auten listen to me. Later on, you will learn. Youth is the anomaly. And people like me and Brett and probably to some extent Jeff, go like, oh, I just need to get back to how it was. I just need to get back to this homeostatic state where I heal, where I heal, like I’m a 19-year-old man. And like, I don’t think that’s wholesome, but I do think it’s normal and I think it’s a bummer that it’s normal because the reason that it’s normal is ’cause that’s how we talk to each other. And Dan Benjamin used to like have a lot of fun with talking about how old I am. And I’m like, well, you know, I wish my dad had gotten [00:25:00] older. I would’ve really liked that. I would love to see my dad be old and have so I could make fun of him. But he didn’t. He died when he was 45. And that really sucks. And we, I think we ought to be light in, in how we treat this stuff. Because first of all, any, everybody’s got a quote disability. What a dumb fucking word. I mean, you know, I, I use, you know why I use the ramp at our library? I use the ramp at our library ’cause I’m lazy. I use the ramp at our library because I’m on a scooter. I’ve only ever, I think, used the ramp at our library because of infirmity, maybe once or twice ’cause of my gout or some old man disease. But you know, like where I’ve got, like had my knee hurt or something. But the, the ramp helps everybody. The ramp harms no one. And to look at as a conveyance or an affordance for people who had this sin or bad taste to age and not be young and perfect anymore is very silly. And I know, I, I realize how this sounds. I realize the, the, the, the, the dozens of theoretically pairs of deaf ears, this will fall upon. [00:26:00] But that’s why Brett, I think that’s what don’t you feel, find yourself feeling sort of like chastened and you’re like, my wife is still like this ’cause she’s an athlete. And I’m like, honey, we’re all getting like, it’s okay. For things to slow down. It’s okay for things to break and remember, the grade that you get is not like how good your corpse was, but how you handled it while the corpse was still anate and like we make, I think we need to lift people up in that, trying to keep their corpse alive. Business. I lift you up. I do it, Brad. I don’t, I don’t care. I don’t fucking care. That’s a lot to, that’s a lot to you. You’re hit getting hit on all angles. Brett: side story. Uh, right before I logged into our, um, problematic app here, i, I, I have a special email folder that. me, um, emails that I need to reply to, and then once I reply to them, they disappear. And there was an email in there and I read it before I realized somehow an email had surfaced from 2014. And it [00:27:00] was my kind of breakup email with Dan Benjamin when I left Five by Five. Merlin: Oh, wow. Brett: it was, it was quite a jolt to like be back in that kind of, Merlin: Isn’t it? It’s so weird to get parachuted, but, but, also, it’s also the other thing with old meme emails. ’cause I run into this looking for old photos or old emails all the time where I’ll be like, oh, like there’s so little context to, to like what you’re like, you’ve gotta like kind of go back and up and down and forward and look through the history. ’cause you’ll, that isn’t that part of what’s jarring is you’re like, whoa, you wanna almost say, oh that escalated quickly. But like, you’re like, no, I, I actually escalated a normal amount over time and I just didn’t have the context. Nah, you should have warned me. I was gonna see this again. Also, also Brett, uh, fight, fight, flight, freeze, you know, um, there are people like John Cusso, whom, whom I love, who insists it’s always been fight, flight, freeze in his life. And he is always heard that and I’m like, what the fuck are you talking about? I never heard freeze until like five years ago. I never, I always heard fight or flight. It’s a fight or flight. That’s, that’s all I ever heard. Brett: I first [00:28:00] heard freeze maybe, maybe five Jeff: yeah. Yeah. Body, Merlin: My boy Bessel body keeps the score. And, but like if you’re, and I, I, gosh, I, I, I, I’m on, this is not a bit, this is not a bit about, you know, trigger warnings or content warnings, but, you know, if you had something physically traumatic happen to you that involved being held down or not being allowed to leave someplace, if you’ve ever been like, you know, uh, my, my roommate locked me in a locker at military school one time as a haha joke, and there’s no amount of time when you’re locked into a children’s small clothing locker that it’s fun for the person on the inside. It isn’t like you, gosh, I, I, it’s like, I wonder if in some lizard brain way, that is also part of it is like, I don’t want to be frozen here. Like, I, I have to, I have to get, I have to get to bed or get to the bathroom. You know? And that’s the other thing with crawling around in a situation like you’re describing is like, you might have urgency to go to the bathroom or you might be disoriented or whatever, but you gotta get there. And like, now these two things are at war. And like, the last thing [00:29:00] I want to do is be frozen under a priest again. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Merlin: I took it a different direction at the end. Jeff: But the freeze is so huge because by not knowing about it and not being common, you, you miss a whole Merlin: And if you’ve got a DD, does it not make sense how much freeze shit makes total sense in A DHD? Not the people who’ve heard of A DHD, but the people who have a DHD. And doesn’t that seem oddly close to procrastination in Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Merlin: What’s your problem, Jeff? Jeff: I dunno. Merlin: guys are, you guys are falling apart. You gotta get off these apps. These apps. are killing you. You gotta get a normal fucking app. Can Christina get you hooked up with some kind of like, uh, some kind of like enterprise app? Brett: probably Merlin: I don’t remember who she works for, but like I can, can you get onto some kind of like, uh, like, I don’t know, a spec special team mojo for the enterprise? Jeff: Hmm. Take the vowels out [00:30:00] and you’ve got an app. Brett: she works for the company that made the place, you’re getting her show notes right now. Merlin: Oh, I thought she worked at Microsoft. Didn’t she work at Microsoft? Brett: She left. Merlin: Microsoft. Jeff: Hmm. Okay. Merlin: Why am why am I talking like this? Y’all, y’all can’t see me? I’m talking my mouth. Oh, she got a better deal. I, I’d leave for a better deal. Ian Mackaye and Punk Stories Jeff: I gotta tell you guys something. This has nothing to do with anything except for Merlin: You forgot. You forgot to hit record. Brett: Oh shoot. Jeff: this is super random, but I, I want to, I wanna put it in here. So, my son, who’s just turned 17, was doing a, an English class. You had to do an analysis of song lyrics, and he chose Smallpox Champion by Fugazi off the Great album in on the kill taker. And, and he needed to just fact check that Gee Pto, who, who sings the song, had written the lyrics. So he writes to Discord records and, and asks if he could get a question to Mr. Mackay. Two hours later, Ian Mackay writes him back on his school email account to be like, oh, yeah, that was, that was, gee, that wrote [00:31:00] that. That was Gee, that wrote that. Yours, Ian? Brett: Nice. Merlin: Someday I’m gonna hear a story about this guy that makes you think he’s a real piece of shit. Every, every single thing I’ve ever heard about this guy is, he sounds like he is a busy grownup, but he’s pretty fun. How cool. Your was your kid freaking out? Yeah. But you were freaking Jeff: he was like, what the Merlin: Do you know who that is? Jeff: and I was like, you know, when I was a kid, people would write him with just issues they had or, or worries, and he would write them back. He would always write them back. And if it was two months late, he would apologize and say he was on tour. I have, I have a few friends that have these letters from him. He would just write back and so it’s a lot easier with email, but fuck sake, he didn’t have to respond. Right. Merlin: that’s so Brett: photos of Ian Mackay and um, Henry Rollins at the Jeff: At the, at the Haagen-Dazs. Yeah. Merlin: it’s in, you know what? I can tell you exactly what it’s in, it’s in that, Brett: Get in the van. Merlin: no, no. The, uh, the, the, the, oh God damnit, uh, 81 82, the, the band whose, uh, [00:32:00] tour went really bad, different state of mind, uh, movie’s Jeff: another state of mind. Merlin: Another State of Mind by the band is not my favorite band. Jeff: What is the band? Merlin: You know, the band. But Jeff: the cover Merlin: everything fell apart. The everybody like flew the, their parents flew them home from the tour. And Mike, Mike, what’s his name? Mike What’s his name, is like the only guy still, I think they go to Haagen Doss and it’s Henry Rollins. And if memory serve, it’s Henry Rollins and, and McKay in Hagen Dos, I might, this might be a fantasy or fan fiction. I’m pretty sure it’s them at Ho and Dos where Amika worked and I think can, yeah. Jeff: So here’s a way that Ian McKay ruined me. I had to interview him for Punk Planet and, and he was, um, it was really fun to interview him, but like he was kind of all over the place. Ian McKay’s Hilarious SUV Game Jeff: And I realized that those interviews with him are really edited and he was great, but he was fucking all over the place, which I loved. But at one point he did the most UN Ian McKay thing and it has ruined me forever. ’cause I can’t not do this when I’m driving. He is like, Hey, you know what’s funny? I wish I had a recording of this because I don’t know how the fuck it came up. He’s like, you look at an SUV, we do this [00:33:00] on tour. He is like, you see an escapade? Yeah. The word anal, anal escapade. You see an explorer, anal explorer, he see an avalanche anal avalanche. And I Merlin: pretty, it’s pretty funny. That is Jeff: happening right now? And so, for the rest of my life, that’s what I do. And now you will too. Merlin: I will too. I, I add prescription to a lot of things. Um, yeah. Try adding prescription to any, uh, especially plural. Noun. Jeff: Oh, that’s Merlin: Ooh, prescription Escalade. That must have been Jeff: prescription Escalade. Yeah. Yeah. Cross Country Team Shenanigans Merlin: Here’s my kid. Yesterday, it was also senior day. He’s the captain of the cross country team, and Jeff: my kids are cross country runners. What a sweet. We just hosted the Merlin: Oh my god, these kids are so fun. These kids. It’s like, well, you’ll see from the photo it is a lot like the bad news. Bears, uh, meets rain, man. It’s, it’s a Jeff: We had a Merlin: it’s a very Jeff: team over for, for dinner. It was like 70 of ’em, and one of them was shotgunning. A LaCroix. Just like the most cross country thing ever. Merlin: like with the pen. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:34:00] did the whole thing. Merlin: Ooh, LaCroix, by the way, the flattest of the busy waters. Jeff: The flattest. All right, I’m looking at this, this image. Oh, sweet. Merlin: Look, they made, they made these, they might be giant style masks. Um, isn’t that cute? You, Brett: I was in track in high school, but they made us Jeff: Go, Billy, Brett: country team and I one i 100% did not sign up to run cross country. I don’t understand how Merlin: you gotta go up hills a little bit in those. Jeff: now and again, Merlin: Oh man. Oh, here’s them singing ’em. Happy birthday. Okay. Discussing Music Preferences Merlin: Anyway, um, Hey everybody, you know what? You get through all this stuff. You get, you get through it or you die, Jeff: social distortion. Merlin: social D Jeff: band I do not like, Merlin: I don’t care for them. It is not my thing, not my thing, but I get it. There’s a lot of those early eighties bands where I get why people love them. People like Brett, but like they Brett: kind of always wanted to, like social distortion, Merlin: Yeah, Brett: there. Merlin: yeah. There’s, it’s, you Brett: to mix social distortion up with bad religion. Jeff: Performative plaid pants.[00:35:00] Merlin: I like Jeff: distortion, Merlin: Triple P, I like, um, uh, yeah. To me that’s a lot of that, uh, well, I’m not gonna say ’cause ’cause Brett will get mad. A lot of that Brett: Why Jeff: bad religion. Merlin: because you like that sc bullshit. Jeff: Oh, man. You, you guys have all toured, Merlin: You gonna miss my, Hey, you missed my English beat beginning. Brett: I, I like, I like the specials. I’m not like a big Merlin: I like English Brett: general. Merlin: Oh, I know, I know. Well, and and what’s the one with the guy who died? Uh, that used to be, is that the one that used to be Operation Ivy? No, Jeff: the one with the guy who died? We’re 50 and Merlin: the one with the guy who died. The one with the guy who died. Oh, that guy. The singing guy. Uh, rancid. Rancid. No, what are Jeff: uh, do it again. Uh, y’all get close. Brett: no one, from Rancid has died. Are you talking about the Mighty, mighty Boss tones? That voice you just did. Merlin: no, they do. Uh, it’s spin. No, Brett: Oh, Merlin: just kidding. I’m just no, I’m just sitting on [00:36:00] weird nineties music. Jeff: It’s been seven Merlin: Now the addition that Chris, the addition that the wonderful comedian Chris Fleming has made to that is he adds a very slight. Constant y sound to the beginning and, and try, try doing that song, but do it with just a little bit of a Jeff: What song? Merlin: yin, Jeff: been Seven Merlin: because no, no yin one week since you look at Jeff: Oh, this one? Merlin: do YY spin, um, uh, but anyway, you should check that out. You should check out that, that, uh, show hip parade. And, uh, and the emo one is, is really, really good. And also, you know what, that guy, he also makes, um, a playlist for, uh, the trash theory guy also on, on YouTube. Highly recommended. I like it when people make playlists of their stuff. That makes me Brett: So Jeff, in your head, in your head, was that Prince or was it Ena Jeff: I was going, Merlin: oh, it spin. Jeff: spend seven Brett: Right, right. Jeff: I was doing Sade. I was doing Sade. I know what Prince wrote it, but [00:37:00] I Merlin: Oh, that’s good. Brett: He did a really good Jeff: Uh, yeah, he did. He was good at what he Merlin: I just heard his, uh, somebody on the internet just posted, I’d never heard, have you heard him do a short but lovely version of a Case of You by Joni Mitchell from the same show where he premiered Purple Rain 83. It’s really pretty. It’s really really pretty. I love, uh, if like Power Pop, uh, Jason Faulkner, formerly of Jellyfish and other things, and, uh, Brendan Benson, he, um, Jeff: Jesus Christ. I haven’t Merlin: yeah. Oh, come on, spilt Milk. That’s a great album. Uh, but anyhow, he, uh, he does a wonderful power pop version of, uh, both sides now by Joni Mitchell that Jeff will specifically find for show notes Jeff: Mm. Fuck. Well, hold Merlin: I, I don’t, I don’t know how to, I don’t know how to log into your app. Jeff: was jellyfish one of the bands with the guy had a funny hat? Merlin: Yep. And he was in before Spilt Milk. That’s spilt milk is my, is my jam. And the drummer stood up Jeff: And the drummer stood up like low, Merlin: like low sh Lowe’s playing. I’ve [00:38:00] been shushed at so many Lowe shows. Um, Jeff: I walked out of the only Merlin: Sh Jeff: I went to, and I love that band. Merlin: I, there’s no way to be any quieter. Why are you sitting on, why are you sitting on the floor? This is not romper room. It’s a rock show. Stand up. Jeff: Those sticks are mallets. Quiet. Merlin: It is the, Brett: Low was Merlin: yeah, I, I, love them. I love that curtain meets the stage. It’s a great band, but Jesus Christ, people stand up. Jeff: Yep. Shopify Sponsorship Segment Merlin: This episode of Overtired is brought to you by Shopify. Lemme ask you a question. Have you ever, uh, been dreaming about owning your own business? One that you can call your own because in addition to having something to sell, well, you’re getting another stuff. You’re gonna need a website, a payment system, probably need a logo, maybe a way to advertise the new customers. Um, I’m just here to tell you, it can be so overwhelming and confusing, but that’s what we’re here to talk about today, Shopify. Uh, if you wanna learn more about Shopify right now, you can go to shopify.com/ Overtired, but you probably already know them. And even if you don’t know them, I can pretty much promise you that you’re using them. Um, I use Shopify all the time, and sometimes [00:39:00] I don’t know it, you know, bet on them and myself. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all get this, this is crazy. 10% of all e-commerce in the us. From household names like Mattel and Jim Shark, which is definitely a company to brands. Just getting started,. so you get started with your own design studio. Hundreds of radio to use templates that Shopify helps you. They build a beautiful online store to match your brand stock. Because here’s the thing, during that business, ’cause you want our business, as I like to say, like Seth Bullock says, you know, I’m in this hardware business. If you’re in your hardware business, business down, you know you, you gotta pay the rent elsewhere, engine every morning. And the thing is, you’re there to sell stuff. You’re not there to be good at this other stuff. If you’re good at this other stuff, you’d have a different job. And if you, if you lived here, you’d already be home. So what do you do? You accelerate your content creation. ’cause Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and they can even enhance your product photography. Because remember, if you’re a photographer, you’d already be a photographer. You can get the word out. Uh, like let’s look. You have your own very own, uh, marketing team all behind. You [00:40:00] can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or scrolling. That’s yet Shopify is your commerce expert with world-class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. So if you’re ready to sell, you’re ready for Shopify. Turn those dreams into Jeff: Cha, Merlin: and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. So here’s what I want you to do right now. This is called the call to action. Jeff: listen Merlin: This is a call to all my past actions. Here’s what I want you to do right now. You sign up one, do you get into one? Do do you know how little that’s hardly any money at all? Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [email protected] slash Overtired. I’m gonna say that again. Please listen carefully. You can find this on your, uh, on your home, home computer set. You go to shopify.com/ Overtired, say at thrice, and it’s almost like praying shopify.com/ Jeff: Overtired. Merlin: There’s nothing worse in this world than an American Jeff: on, hold Merlin: than an American man in his second [00:41:00] year of college, Jeff: Oh, Merlin: a woman major in Synology. College Life Challenges Merlin: What was your question, Brett? Jeff: on. My son, my son and his is in his second year of college and, and he just had me order green body paint ’cause he’s gonna be, let’s say his name is Merlin: Is he a psych? He’s not a Synology major, is he? Oh, Jeff: computer science, but let’s say his name is Jimmy. I said, what are you doing this for? He is like, ’cause I’m gonna be green Jimmy for Halloween. I said, that’s pretty fucking funny. That’s pretty fucking funny. Merlin: What’s screen Jimmy? Jeff: Nothing. It’s just him but green. Merlin: Oh, Jeff: We’re pretending his name is Merlin: See, I used to do that and it was never fun. I, I used to do like a minimal effort, Halloween costumes. One time I came as everybody I went to high school with, and all I did was wear a Guns N Roses shirt and make fig Its, and I, it wasn’t funny. It Jeff: I can beat you. I did Robert De Niro one year, and all I did was put a little black dot where Merlin: Oh, that’s sweet. You could also be, uh, yeah, a beauty mark. Um, I’m fine. Um, we’re just about done here, right? Look, how don’t these kids look little? Did you see that Billy got a shirt? Did you see Billy got a shirt with his name on the back? Did you see that? [00:42:00] Uh, second year of college. Okay. One thing at a time, you guys. Jeff: Okay. Merlin: getting really confusing. Just kidding. I’m just kidding. Um, second year of college. Oh no, you survived the first year. You’re not dead. Now you’re smart and you know stuff and there’s somebody who’s younger than you and you’re closer. Not again, I sound like I’m anti youth and I am not. I really enjoy being young and I enjoy aspects of young people quite a lot. Um, but it’s an anomaly. I want you to know that. But second year of college, oh man. There’d be dragons because it’s not just me. I think, I think it’s a lot of people. Brett: as seniors then? Like does something mellow them out by the time they’re in their Merlin: Well, you know, one part of expertise, this, this, this is gonna sound very head up your As ’cause it kind of is. But you know, there’s things we know. There’s the no knowns and the unknowns and all that Donald Rumsfeld Jeff: Yeah. Go to the war with the army you have? Yeah. Merlin: but the same, same guy. But the, uh, but in that case, like you don’t know what you don’t know when you’re, uh, in your first year, or at least I didn’t, I didn’t know what I didn’t [00:43:00] know. And it’s just, it’s really easy to get. It’s the thing that Dreyfus and the Dreyfus model of skill acquisition, it’s called being an advanced beginner, which is the kind of person, like if you’ve got two Zen mind beginner’s mind and all you can do is follow exact recipes, you’re probably less likely to fuck up in a lot of ways. You’re not gonna go off the beaten track. The real dangers with the advanced beginner, which is somebody who thinks they know stuff about stuff and where they don’t really have any broader domain knowledge, it’s just they haven’t failed enough. Somebody, somebody like Marco Armand, like Marco Orman, somebody who hasn’t failed enough in life to really understand how hard it can be. I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. But that, that’s, I mean, uh, le less dangerous than a senior. I don’t know about that, but I think you do learn more stuff about stuff and. Brett: No, that Merlin: you just gotta put miles, you gotta put miles on the tires before you really know, you know? Brett: I would say so. I. When I, I, I, I’ve been writing music since I was [00:44:00] very small. Um, got my first Casio keyboard when I was like Jeff: SK one, was it an SK one? Brett: I don’t remember. Merlin: That’s, that’s a, that’s a sampling one. I had a, I had an SK Jeff: Hello? Hello? Merlin: I also had an MT 40. Brett: but then in high school I took music theory and up until I took music theory, I was very creative and I was making like, just some crazy stuff that I went back to and listened two years later. And I was like, wow, where did that even come from? But then I got a little music theory in me and it kind of ruined me. Um, not Merlin: we overthinking it or feeling incompetent? Brett: Well, I just felt like I had this basic set of rules. Like I, I was not advanced in music theory. Like I had year one. Like four, four part harmony like rules in my head and, and it made me stop. Every time I would write something, I would [00:45:00] second guess what I was doing and Merlin: Just even thinking about like something like a chord inversion, you don’t really need to worry about that. If you play long enough an inversion, you won’t even know I didn’t, I would do chord inversions without knowing that’s what it was. It’s just, if you call it that and you make, and you say like, oh, well, you got the wrong number of sharps on your staff, or all that stuff. It’s almost like somebody who, like, they want you to learn all of the quote unquote rules of advanced Dungeons and Dragons before you ever learn how to tell a story. And it’s like, well, we need all these tables and dice throws and stuff, because that’s how we looks at all those rules are important, but ultimately it’s a game and it should be fun. You know what I mean? And like, I had the same, I mean, I, I failed music theory when I was a senior. ’cause I was, I was very oppositional. But I, I agree. Also agree with you. It’s like that phrase, a little learning is a dangerous thing. We’ve learned just UN just enough to start overthinking. Brett: Yeah, exactly. Which is when? When you say second year of college, that’s what I think of. But I was a freshman my second year of college. ’cause I Merlin: year in a [00:46:00] person’s life. Oh, Brett: Yeah. Merlin: where, where Jeff: translate. I didn’t go to college. I’m trying to translate what a second year is, or if you can even translate or if Merlin: no. It translates to a, it translates to a million things. I mean, I think of the workplaces, this is off the dome, but think of the workplaces you’ve been in that have like self-appointed experts, like somebody who knows how this place runs. That’s not the office manager. Or, or for, I mean, there’s all kinds of places where like you’ll, you’ll run into people who espouse, I’m gonna put this carefully, espouse a confidence in their skills that may not be based entirely in good reasons or reality, but they, they do like, have the, the confidence. Uh, I I don’t think it’s, I don’t think it’s specifically a college thing, it’s just, it becomes, now we’re on a different topic. But the thing with colleges, and the thing that sucks is that in the United States, at least in my lifetime, college has become so synonymous. With, um, cutting the cord. I don’t know. Becoming an, becoming an adult, right? In a way that becoming a [00:47:00] teenager maybe kind of was a big deal, you know, in the fifties or sixties. All I’m trying to say is like, it sucks to me that, okay, so when you go out on your own re regardless of how independent you’ve been, regardless of how caring of an environment you’ve come up in the bottom line is somehow the rent has to get paid. The clothes have to get washed, gas has to get in the car. Uh, another thing you learn in college, good low stakes environment to learn this in is, you know, sometimes you’re just gonna have to decide what you’re not gonna read or do. This week, there’s not enough time to do everything. Well, guess what? This sucks so much. And I’m not saying this to like look point down, but like another youth thing, but like, guess what that’s fucking life is, there’s all kinds of stuff. And like how do you become good about that? How do you become smart about that? With that becoming emotional about that? How do you learn the difference, for example, between, um, we can’t afford that and that’s not in the budget. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Merlin: That’s a distinction lost on a lot of people. And so, you know, uh, there’s all these kinds of things where you’re like, well, yeah, that makes sense now. Fucking a I am [00:48:00] in my forties or fifties. Like of course that makes sense, where you’re like, yeah, but you earned that through so much difficulty in your life. And the part that bums me out is I wish there was something besides even, let’s exclude the hassle, stress and cost of going to college in any way. Let’s just leave that off. Let’s act like that’s all taken care of. Well, the laundry has to get done. The gas has to get in the car. The books you, if you have two. How can I put this? If you have five pounds of work and a two pound bag, there is not a single person who’s gonna help you with that. And, and if you haven’t figured out you’ve got five pounds of work that needs to, however you’d like to think of that, I you could just think of it as time. You could. Maybe it’s easier to think of it as time. If you have three one hour tasks and one hour left, something’s gonna have to happen. You could choose to shave a little off all of those. You could completely skip two of them. I can’t tell you. And right now you can’t tell you because you haven’t done it enough. Uh, this is why I think it’s good for kids to fail in low sticks environments. I think it’s good for adults to fail in low sticks environments. I think it’s good for [00:49:00] everybody to fail in low sticks environments. Jeff: be able to know when it’s a low stakes environment. I feel like that’s its own Merlin: Everything. If you’re me, everything feels like a high stakes environment. Yeah, exactly. But I know that this is just something, again, in that document, which I’m always happy if you would wanna link to it. Uh, the wisdom, the thing it is like is that, you know, you. You, you ought to let yourself and others fail in a low stakes environment because, and this is, this is the money shot. Success need not always be costly or deadly. And we get so used to fail failure, fail as like a zero again. Zero or one kind of binary as like you succeeded or you didn’t. What do you mean you succeeded? Or you didn’t? You succeeded so much every day and you haven’t even fucking realized it. ’cause you didn’t realize that whether or not you went to college, you eventually mostly learned how to do laundry. You mostly learned how to get gas in the tank. You mostly learned how to deal with a roommate. We all have had to deal with roommates. It’s just that, you know, college, all this pressure, you could drop into that and like, Hey, guess what? Welcome to adult world. See you Thanksgiving. Like, have [00:50:00] fun. Go be kids. Just go figure this stuff out. And the way that we treat and. Teach and counsel kids. This has come up so often in so many of my shows lately. It drives me bananas the way that we, we add so much unnecessary pressure and emotional valence to so many things in our life. And then wonder why people get upset about it. And like you go like, oh, oh kid. Well I hope your grades were perfect for 12 years. ’cause now you’re putting your mother and I in the poor house so that you can go off to, you know, whatever college and and like. But it’s entirely possible that one reason college didn’t work out in the first year. Sure. Could be academics or whatever you wanna call it, school work. It could mean maybe it’s the first time you’re out from under your parents’ fucking thumb and you finally get to do your own thing. And it could be something as anodyne as you stay up later than you should too often and you get a cold sore and then you’re not getting your work done. You didn’t realize it soon enough. You had five pounds of work to put into a two pound bag. There’s so many points of failure in that first year of college for [00:51:00] everybody. Um, and I just wish there was a way to ease into that more easily and to not feel like if I don’t succeed, if I don’t, I will never succeed at my four to 14 years of college if I don’t succeed in my first term of college. So if I don’t succeed hugely in my first. Try at college. My, my life is over. I mean, I might as well just like make or get made into sandwiches. Like what used do I have to the world? I’ve disappointed everyone. I suck. I can kind of do my laundry. And that’s partly because you asked somebody to do all of these new things at the same time. There’s no other point in your life except maybe what joining the Marines, I don’t think there’s that many other points in your life when you’re asked to do so much impossibly different. To get good at so many impossibly different. Yeah, exactly. At the same time. ’cause each has a stake. It isn’t just that like, well if you forgot, you know, your mom can throw your jeans in the dryer because she knows that trick. Like whatever it is. And then that, that day, that morning, that dark night of the soul will come where you’re like, we’ve all had that. Where you’re like, oh [00:52:00] no, the walls are closing in around me. ’cause I thought I was spinning all of these plates. Okay. But actually things are worse than I thought and now I have to man manage. I don’t even know how many points of failure at the same time. And I think, yeah, go ahead. No, that’s it. Jeff: Learning through my, my son in his first year of college, he’s in his second now, uh, just so you have all these big things, so you have to learn at once, but then I get a call because he is at the Walmart, and he is like, I don’t know which of these laundry soaps to buy. You know, it seems like some of them are a bad idea for me. And you’re like, oh my God, you’re mad. You’re Merlin: You should see me with Instacart telling them what toilet paper to get. I, I, it’s not even that I care that much, but like you’ve asked and now I’m like, that is so overwhelming. And that’s also time, that’s time. That’s, that’s, that’s cycles picking classes. I mean, isn’t that kind of another one? All this stuff we think of as ancillary and like water under the Jeff: stay in a class. Right? Like and what Merlin: Yeah. To to to draw, add, drop stuff. [00:53:00] Yeah. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. Um, I just, um, I’m talking about myself today and that’s gonna have to be okay. Um, I do the show. Thank you. Thank you. I’m gonna get my hiller mustache back. Um, I. Do a show with John Siracusa and, uh, we were talking about on a recent episode that I really enjoyed. The Wisdom Project and Life Advice Merlin: We were talking about like, him trying to advise, especially his son who is gonna be going into computer stuff, like trying to advise him like, Hey, look, you know, I’ve been in a lot of workplaces and like I know how there’s warning signs and red flags, and we’ve all, I’m sure I imagine had those of like red flags, you know, where, where, you know, for example, when they bring you in for the interview, everybody in the office looks kind of like Stockholm Syndrome. Like, Hey, how’s it going? Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: Get back in the closet, Patty Hearst type situation. But like, the thing I said to him is like, because I don’t, I, as much as I love the Wisdom Project, which I can be misconstrued, the Wisdom Project is not me trying to give you help and except insofar as I hope you’ll find [00:54:00] it useful, but it’s not designed to be a self-help book from somebody who’s smart. It’s designed to be a catalog of pain from somebody who has not been good at it. And every single one of those things in that document came from somebody’s pain. Often my own, very much, often somebody else’s pain call somebody what you, what call someone what they wanna be called and don’t be a dick about. It didn’t cause me any pain. I caused a lot of other people pain because they didn’t meet my id, my idea of what they should be called. And I had to learn that and that was hard. Um, so whilst I’m not single-mindedly interested in giving advice to anybody, especially my kid, my kid’s fine. Doesn’t need my help. But what I was saying in the Syracuse is if there’s anything I really do wish I, not that I could have been advised, but I wish I could have gotten, I wish I’d had bio available to me, is the idea that you can survive a lot more than you think. Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: And the thing I said to John is you have to be careful how you apply that. ’cause on the one hand, if that were advice to his son, it sounds like you might be [00:55:00] saying, oh, you got this great job at a start. You barely got this really good job, quote unquote, good job at a startup, gimme a break, whatever you, but you got this job where you’ve basically agreed to go in and have your entire life turned upside down for the prospect of a seam of gold and gotta produce that color just like Ellsworth. But I may have fucked my life up flat on hammered shit, but I stand before you today. A man beholden to no cock sucker, Jeff: no human Merlin: human cock sucker or the God anyway. Jeff: No. Human cocksucker is the genius, the human. Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. He just leaves in the Jeff: It’s a theology. Merlin: Keep your own tally. Um, but, um, the, it sounds like you might be saying in that horrible, horrible way that so much advice came to me. I bet you get this, Brett. I just, I just, I really bet you got this, and I bet you get this, that kind of like caustic. Midwestern, maybe Northern Midwestern, but that certain kind of caustic, you know, I dunno if you guys have been following on rectus the whole thing with compulsory [00:56:00] naked swimming in public school, but where we normalize these incredibly insane things and make them codified policy. And then to, to, for a long old John Siracusa quote, we’ve always cut the ends off the roast. Why do we cut the ends off the roast? Because we’ve always cut the ends off the roast in passing. Do you guys know that story? Jeff: Pat, cutting the ends off the Merlin: Yeah. There’s an old, there’s an old, old story that illustrates that I learned about from Syracuse. And when I say that over and over, I like people to make, make sure people that aren’t just Syracuse fans. Now, um, whenever we make a roast, you, before you put it in, you’re learning how to cook, right? Your, your mom or grandma. Let’s just, let’s just keep it matri Petra matri linear. Your mom goes, oh, we’re gonna teach you how to make a roast. You get the, get the, the, the pot out. You cut the ends off, you put it in, you see sand, it’s like, oh, why don’t we cut the ends off the roast? Um, um, I, my, my mom, it’s just, it’s part of, part of the preparation. Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: Now follow me. And at that point you’re going like, well that’s crazy. ’cause you can tell already the, the, the uh, chekhov’s, uh, chekhov’s roast at this point is obviously in evidence. So [00:57:00] you’re going, haha, that’s the clue, right? I’ve watched law and order, but, but hang on. ’cause then you go like, so you play the story out and eventually you get all the way back to, well, when my family came here from Poland, we only had one pot and it was very, very small. And even though we didn’t have a lot of food to make something like a roast, when we could afford it fit into there, we had to cut the ends off to Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Merlin: just sit with that for a second. I know it’s not that profound, but boy does it. Doesn’t that ever come up in life? Why ‘ Jeff: cause I’ve never cut the ends off a roast, Merlin: Why do, why do we cut the, we cut the ends off the roast because we’ve always cut the ends off the roast. Well, is it because it didn’t fit the pan? No, it fits the pan fine. What does that have to do with it? It’s true. You got the, you, you, you’re so successful now. You have so much roast and so much pan. You have so much going on. You could put, you could put roast in pans all day. You never even had to find out why. You used to have to cut the ends off the roast, but it became received wisdom and you kept passing it along. And that’s the same kind of Midwestern. Horse shit advice that used to get passed along to me [00:58:00] with this feeling of, you’re gonna do this or you’re gonna go to hell, you’re gonna do this, or you’re going to gravely disappoint grandma, you’re going to do this. Or like comes like fraught with all of this, I accidentally quoted one of my all time favorite back to work titles and I thought I was making up a new expectational debt. You arrive in the world, you, first of all, you got original sin that’s on you that before you, you were born with original sin. Brett, that’s you. I’m looking at you original sin. You probably never ran into this anyway. Jeff: Brett definitely ran into this. Merlin: But what could be greater than original sin in terms of you fucked up, you never asked to be born, but you were born, but you’re part of the species that killed Jesus. So you begin with, with, red on your, on your, on your ledger, and we’re gonna leverage that, things like that for the rest of, for as long as we can control you. And finally, last thing from the doc there. Be careful of people who try to motivate you with fear, [00:59:00] because a lot of the people who try to motivate you with fear, that’s all that they’ve got. And they know it. It’s just you haven’t figured it out yet. You have not yet figured out that all they have is motivating you by fear. Brett: Sure. Well, and in a lot of cases it’s all they’ve known. Merlin: That’s all they’ve known. They’ve always cut the ends off the roast. Brett: Right. Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: It’s just, it’s um, it’s weird and it’s, it’s weirder than weird right now because my kid, my kid does well in school and I mean, nobody in our house gets mail anymore except my kid. It’s, it’s just so weird to me to like be, I was so unattractive to colleges. I was attracted to the Marines, uh, because of my PS or, uh, asvab. I did it. I did extraordinarily well on the asvab, not very well Armed Services, vocational aptitude Jeff: Ah, got it. Okay. Merlin: the Marines were coming out to h the house in government cars to like pick me up and take me in to like, watch movies and drink coffee. Like please join the Marines. And I was really thinking about it for a [01:00:00] while ’cause I didn’t have anything else, but, um, very desirable. But right now it’s, it’s crazier than ever, ever, ever. It’s been crazy for so long. And Jeff, you must get this to some extent, like where you’re like, oh my goodness, it is really quite awfully expensive to go to college. And even let’s, again, let’s even assume it’s paid for, which it ain’t. Um, I mean, I, I’m not, I’m certainly not that alarmed AI guy, but at the same time, like, I don’t know if I wanna undertake a. Maybe not Cs. I don’t know if I would do like a computer programming major right now. Uh, there’s a lot of stuff I don’t know if I Jeff: looking at bailing on that Merlin: for 40. For what? For 40, 50, 60. 80, 80 grand a year. Talk about debt. Jeff: kid too and he is recognized that quickly. He is like, I love programming. That doesn’t mean I need to be a CS kid. Merlin: Sorry, last thing. And then we’ll do whatever you want. Um, the, you’d be surprised what you can survive because you bounce. And the thing is, if you’re me, [01:01:00] uh, I can’t speak for you. Uh, bt but like, I thought everything was a catastrophe. I thought everything that went wrong. I thought every eviction, I thought every, I thought every empty tank of gas. I thought every late bill I could feel in my bones. I can say this to you guys. I now know because of trauma. I, I could feel it in my bones. Excuse me, shivers right now to think about the sense. Um, the sense is that I associate with that. I can feel like you ever been panicked and your, your arms and hands get cold and it feels like the blood’s leaving your body. That I, I now know that’s one of my panic responses is that it feels like I could, right here in this particular, I can feel blood. It feels like blood is leaving my body because I’ve been through that so many times and I’ve been more than happy to rehearse, rehearse and rere, rehearse and do dress re I got a title coming Be Ready, the dress rehearsals of my trauma. Jeff: Oh, I don’t know if that beats Chekhov’s roast Merlin: pretty good. We always cut the ends off. We always cut the ends off checkoff. [01:02:00] Um, but not sulu. Oddly enough, the, um, but’s not funny. The, the, the, the, uh, the, it was the advice part talking about John’s kid with Alex and the advice that we give. ’cause it kind of sounds like you’re saying, Hey, I’m gonna be Midwestern dad. Now. You’d be amazed what you can survive, you know? My father beat the shit out of me for no reason, and I turned out great. I beat the shit outta you for no reason, and you’ll turn out great eventually. As long as you accept my beatings in the spirit that they were Jeff: Well, and and you’ll be surprised that you can survive is different from saying you’ll be fine. Merlin: It is, but the final part, just, just, yes. I would love to talk more about that. That just the part I was saying that Syracuse is, this is a, the kind of fine distinction that gets lost on someplace like the internet is like if you is, let’s say his son were to be fortunate enough to get a job at a startup somewhere. Yeah. Sounds great. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Merlin: Um, and then they [01:03:00] find that it is a toxic environment and all those red flags were true, you know? Um. The mean dad voice would seem to be saying, you’d be surprised what you can survive. Stick with it. I never want, and this is the other thing I said to Syracuse, like, what if your kid’s gay? What if your kid’s an actor? What if you’re constantly telegraphing to your kid? What, even with your best advice about their specific situation, if it comes couched in a judgment about their deeper decision making, you’re a piece of shit and they should hate you because you were not supportive of them. And now you’re trying to say, I told, not saying Syracuse does this, but you’re trying, which he does, but you’re trying to say, I told you so to your kid now. ’cause you’re like, well you didn’t try hard enough not to be gay or to not be an actor. Like you didn’t, whatever it was, you did these, but now I’ve still got lots of great advice for you because I love you and you give all this advice. It sounds like you’re saying you’d be surprised what you can survive as an, as a, um, kinda a patois of, you’d be surprised what you can put up with because of what I’ve put up with. But what it also means is you’d be amazed what you can survive. [01:04:00] What if you bounced from this job, but what if you went into it with a different state of mind than this pervation, um, mentality, or this like Merlin’s blood is leaving his shoulders feeling. What if you saw it as simply not, not to be Pollyanna, not to be positive, but to avoid being catastrophic about it and to avoid making it always the worst? So yeah, you could say that if you’re a piece of shit, you could say you’d be survive surprised what? You can survive as a way of saying, well, like the way you survived my beatings for now. But it can also mean you’d be survive surprised what you can survive if you’re true to the little voice in yourself that tells you where the good version of you lives, and that’s the direction that you need to be moving. Now, which dad do you wanna be? Which anybody do you want to be? Do you wanna be the one who’s constantly reminding them of the mistakes they made to disappoint you? Or do you wanna be the kind of person who lifts them up to say whatever the fuck you’re becoming could not make me any happier? And I wanna put all of my wood behind that arrow. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [01:05:00] Yeah. How old were you when your dad died? Merlin: Seven, almost eight. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Halloween, Ron. Halloween. Woo, spooky. Jeff: Wow. Yeah. Merlin: Um, yeah, so, I don’t know, man, but it’s, it’s, so, actually it’s funny because the more I think about, I hate to call it advice, but that’s what it ends up being. But that document’s been so good for me, writing that, thinking about that, forcing myself to edit and change and then rethink about those and are there ones I wanna take out and all that kind of stuff. ’cause it, that, that’s what got me reconnected with the idea of how much pain I’ve caused, or how much pain has been, in some ways unintentionally, often been caused to me by doing what seems like the right thing, or to quote the movie Rules of the Game. The terrible thing in life is that everyone, everyone has their reasons. Everybody’s got a reason that they’re, how they are. They, everybody’s doing the best they can every day and more is the pity. Fred, are you doing okay? Jeff: he’s shaking his tic-Tacs. Merlin: TicTacs.[01:06:00] Brett: I, I am, Merlin: Let’s get down to Tic-Tacs. Brett: I, uh, Jeff: Oh, ouch. Brett: we should, if we’re, are we going to do a Gude this week? Do you guys feel like it? Jeff: Aptitude. Merlin: got nowhere to be, I gotta pick up some medicine and then I’ve got to record with Syracuse tonight. Jeff: on, hold on. Guitar. Guitar Moves with Matt Sweeney Jeff: You were talking about guitar. Have either of you watched the YouTube series by Matt Sweeney called Guitar Moves? Holy shit. Do you know who Matt Sweeney is? Merlin: I know that name. was he in Sunset Jeff: Chavez, you remember that Band Merlin: Oh, Chavez. Jeff: But he’s, but since then, he’s a session guy who’s done everything from Cat Stevens to Iggy Pop, to Bonnie Prince Billy, um, uh, I mean it’s just, he’s unbelievable. He is a total sweetheart. He’s a super fan in, in the best way. And he does Merlin: Oh, I like that. He likes the music that he likes. I. Jeff: He like, is it 15 minute? Roughly 15, 20 minute edited videos with guitar players where he talks, he has his guitar and they have their guitar and they show him things he’s done. Like James Williamson from The [01:07:00] Stooges, he’s done Ace Freely, which is a really great one, a really like sweet one. Um, Merlin: I played the trout. He Jeff: did, he did Josh Ey Hammi Hammi. Merlin: I love that guy. Jeff: he’s great and it, Merlin: Oh my God. I love the way he plays guitar. Jeff: you would both love it. And given that Ace Freely just died, I wanna really recommend that. So here’s the thing. I don’t care for Kiss. I fucking love the man Ace freely. I don’t even know. Not the guitar playing. Even Merlin: Did you ever see him interviewed on the Tom Snyder Jeff: was just gonna say, I was just Merlin: I play the Trout. Jeff: If you go watch the Tom Snyder interview a Kiss, all Merlin: Chris and Space Ace. Um, Peter, Peter and Space A are over here in one world completely high on shake Jeff: going Merlin: He Jeff: that taste freely in every interview, in that, in that era. and Merlin: Actually women are very attracted to us. Yeah, I play the trout Jeff: Gene Watch you Highly recommended it. I’ll put a link to the Thomas Slander show, but that caused me to watch a whole bunch of interviews with these f freely. And he doesn’t Merlin: I don’t know what, I don’t know what he’s is. Is he, is he as wacky as he [01:08:00] seemed? Jeff: he, he doesn’t Merlin: Because he drank, he drank a lot, right? It was mainly Jeff: a lot. Oh, real, real big problem. Yeah. Anyway, watch Ace Frehley and KISS Trivia Merlin: I like New York Groove. I think that’s, I think that’s one of the best tracks on all of the Kiss Solo albums, Jeff: So I went and listened to the first KISS album, which I’ve never listened to all the way through because I decided I love Ace Fraley. And then I was like, no, I don’t need kiss, I guess. But I, I appreciate it. I appreciate the Merlin: that the one with No, that’s not Strutter. Jeff: New York Ballsiness Merlin: Which one’s? The first one? What’s on there? Is it, um, black Diamond? Jeff: Uh, black Diamonds on it. Merlin: Yeah. Oh, is it dressed to Jeff: Which I only Merlin: Not dressed. Is it, is it dressed to kill? Did I get that to write? Right. And I remember it’s black and Jeff: here for Kiss trivia. That’s the point. But I fucking love Ace Merlin: You can Jeff: as a person, even though he is clearly a very difficult person. Merlin: Hey, well the joke is ’cause Tom, Tom Snyder mispronounces the instrument that Gene Jeff: Yeah, he says, uh, Merlin: So you play the Jeff: Yeah. Here you play the bass. Merlin: And then a and a space, a and I don’t remember this ’cause this was a running joke in Bacon Ray for five years. And then occasionally Mike Coleman would just say over the [01:09:00] microphone. Yeah, I play the trout. He, Tom Snyder Interviews and Iggy Pop Jeff: Also recommend any Tom Snyder interview, but especially his last show, which Merlin: he’s wonderful. Jeff: But his interviews with the PLAs Asthmatics with Iggy Pop. Iggy Pop with that one really changed me in certain ways. But Iggy Pop says, Iggy, you’re bleeding. You just played. Why are you bleeding? ’cause I’m on your show, Tom. Merlin: Oh, Jeff: Wendy Williams. Great. Tom Merlin: Detroit. Rock City, they call it. Wow. Wow. That was there, there was a commonality. Huh? Wendy O. Williams and Milwaukee Riot Merlin: Where’s Wendy? Where’s uh, Matics? Where’s Wendy Williams? Are they from New Jeff: she’s from Milwaukee, I think. The PLAs asthmatics I think, Merlin: Uh, Jeff: they had just played in Milwaukee when she did the interview. I’m looking, yeah, there was a riot in Milwaukee at their show, I think is the point. Hold on, I’m looking it up. Merlin: She, I just, I remember she had, uh, she had electrical tape over her Jeff: Yeah. Electrical tape over her nipples. Yep, Merlin: nipples. Brett. Brett say nipples. Brett say nipples funny. [01:10:00] Nipples Nipples Brett: that Merlin: Nipples. Brett: very German Merlin: Did you know this? Here’s a life Jeff: I nipples Merlin: nipples I’ve on seen my nip mine nipples. Mine. Mine nipples. Um, before you name any animal, you should yell it, uh, out of the back, the, you should name it off. You should yell the name of your prospective animal name off the back of the, the porch of your trailer and see how it sounds and how you feel about it. I would feel good about yelling nipples. You should not name your animal anything you wouldn’t want to yell. Jeff: Uh, that’s Merlin: Same for your kid. This is why you shouldn’t name your kid ris. Jeff: Oh, that’s a problem. Okay, so she was born in Webster, New York. And, um, let’s see, uh, famous for partial nudity, exploding equipment, firing a shotgun and chainsawing guitar. She was like, Gibby Hanes before Gibby Hanes, um, Merlin: Yep. And but also you got, you got the Detroit connection with Iggy. ’cause the Stooges are from Detroit. And then of course, kiss, um, had, had, uh, had, uh, on the album, uh, [01:11:00] destroyer, I believe, Jeff: Uh, just to real quick, before we’re done with Merlin: Detroit Rock City. Jeff: to, she traveled to Florida and Europe, landing various jobs as a lifeguard, a stripper, and a macrobiotic cook. She’s the best. She’s the best. Merlin: Your time starts now. Jeff: She’s the best. Anyway, Taskmaster and Playlists Merlin: Do you guys watch Task Master? You don’t, do you? Brett: No. Jeff: a couple episodes ’cause of you, you, you sent me a Merlin: Yeah. It takes, it, it takes some getting Jeff: I, no, I need to, I need to get Merlin: No, no, no, no. I have a really good starter list on, uh, YouTube that I, I, I update. No, no. Here’s the thing. I’m fucking great at playlists. It’s, it’s my, it’s my oils. I love playlists, but I, I mention it Jeff: Wait, what does that mean? Merlin: Oh, like how you paint. Jeff: Oh, yeah. Merlin: But I, um, I update them also. Like I have a very good, one of very good live performances that I keep updated. And my, the one that I baby the most right now is my taskmaster starter list, which is six or seven episodes where if you don’t know where to begin with taskmaster, pick any of these. And as with all my playlists, feel free to skip [01:12:00] around. Like, I won’t be mad. Like if you go to the one that’s like, just thousands of songs that are in the order, they were on the album. You don’t have to listen to all of those. If you don’t like Huskerdoo, you can skip around, but you probably should like huskerdoo. I will never forget you. I will, I will never forget. I I will, Jeff: Okay, Merlin: I will. I I will never, I will never, I will never forget you. Jeff: No, thank you. It is a Merlin: I will never, I will never. I will never. I will never. I will. Never forget you. I Jeff: You know, Bob Merlin: You think you’ve made it to the top? If people know your name, you’re still the same. Yeah. He used to, he used to write, I heard he used to write stories for, Jeff: Great. Live performances. Just please go check Iggy Pop doing the song. Five Foot one on Tom Snyder. Can I please read the first lines of five foot one? I’m only five foot one. I got a pain in my neck. I’m looking up in the city. What the hell? What the heck? Merlin: That’s pretty Jeff: mean, god damn. Bob Dylan. Brett: Can, can, can you guys drop some links for say this taskmaster playlist and this, this interview [01:13:00] and, ’cause I’m losing track. Jeff: I’ll Merlin: No, no. I, I, I would love to do that. Can I also ask a favor? And in band favor? Um, in-band favor. Can you guys, no, it’s okay. Your people can hear it. I don’t care. Um, can you, could also, could you please send me just the raw, shout it out so I can, yeah. Jeff: Are you putting it into your, um, jato? Merlin: My dingus. Mudding Jeff: Are you using transcripts, like Merlin: Jato. You say what? What, what, Jeff, what’s Jao What that means is that another one of your apps? Is that like Spur or Fluk or one of your other notetaking Jeff: song where he says, Jato? Merlin: Oh, I see. I, I know who you’re talking about. Uh uh Wait a minute. Hang on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s from, uh, is the actor Happy? Is that from, he has the actor Happy. I saw him in Hayes Valley and he was fucking great, Jeff: You, you saw him? Merlin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, I think, wait, I saw Lamb Chop around that same time. I don’t think I saw them together, but I saw Lamb Chop at, uh, great American. Was that until [01:14:00] started, you know, what’s that song is that is the Aer Hector, happy Brett. This is all gonna be in notes. Brett: you. Merlin: Vic Chestnut. Vic Vic, Vic Chestnut, and then he played, he had, he had all those kind of physical problems and he played guitar. Jeff: He was in a wheelchair, right? Merlin: He was super in a wheelchair. Jeff: was he a paraplegic? I forget the, Merlin: Don’t know he was Jeff: paralyzed, I think below the waist, Merlin: Well, I think he had, he had some kind of a movement situation, Jeff: Okay. Merlin: is my new dance move that it is not Jeff: Uh, my diagnosis is you have a Merlin: You have a movement situation. Jeff: have a movement Merlin: We need to get you on the negative 70 degrees to the table til you’re facing forward. Animals would be raised UN slaughtered, Jeff: guitar Merlin: In danger of having a mine Cheff gap? Jeff: mineshaft Merlin: I watched House of Dynamite. It made me think a lot. Don’t watch House of Dynamite. It’s not good. I have others TV shows that I’d be happy to suggest. I, I’m currently suffering through a blight of, uh, B plus tv.[01:15:00] Jeff: B plus tv. Merlin: Too much, B plus tv. Yeah, there’s a lot of good stuff out there though. Um, and I got a lot of music. Very excited about music and apps. Apps. You people love Jeff: fucking love music? Brett: I have, um, I have stopped listening to audio books momentarily, and I just fall asleep listening, not watching Bob’s burgers Merlin: Oh, we walked out of my kid’s tr my kid has a terrible cold. Like, oh, my kid has a terrible cold. My kid had his captain on the cross country had Billy’s birthday, 18th birthday yesterday, and Billy’s senior day where they say, I sent you guys photos of when you say goodbye to the seniors on the team. He had all of that happen yesterday. We were walking back to the car to go home and you know how this is in life. You, you can’t unhear this, but we’re just walking to the car. And my 17-year-old son goes, oh my God. And for some reason, the way he said that sounded so much like Bob Belcher. It was [01:16:00] so funny to hear it like a high school student go, oh, you know how he does. You seen the, have you seen like, oh my God, compilations. Jeff: No. Merlin: Compilations of just Bob Belcher saying, oh my God, Jeff: Oh, I’m, Merlin: if you like Bob’s burgers, you know how funny that is. Are we, Are we, doing this? Brett: Um, Merlin: Things haven’t been so great with Tony Brett: h John Benjamin is a Merlin: John Benjamin has a van also, which o has, uh, Nathan Fielder on it. Brett: love that show. Merlin: That show’s so fucking weird. You know, that’s Comedy Central, right? Brett: I don’t, I don’t remember Merlin: I think so. They, they take some weird little swings like Key and Peele. How did Key and Peele ever get made? Me, neither. Jeff: Oh my God. How did Key appeal ever get made? Merlin: Oh. my, I got to be there two weeks ago. I, I, Alex has so much less expo, my friend Alex, that I do a podcast with has so much less exposure to what I consider classic media than I do, but also has no recollection of having seen anything. And really, it, it’s like having a beloved family member who, like, say for example, likes the Marx Brothers or thinks they like the [01:17:00] Marx Brothers, but doesn’t remember anything they’ve done. Or Chris Fleming for that matter or the Jeff: will I be able to play piano? Brett: have the com. The Jeff: We Merlin: I couldn’t before. Jeff: if we had eggs. No, Merlin: can leave in a minute. Brett: DHD and, and complex trauma has destroyed my memory. Like, and I can remember that I like something if someone says, Hey, have you seen? I can be like, yeah, I love that movie, but I don’t remember the movie. Merlin: I, oh, Brett: the time. Merlin: it makes conversations so awkward. Especially if you’re talking to somebody who still has their faculties and still likes to play that funny game of do I did the, sorry, how can I phrase this? You’re somebody who still has their faculties, still has their memories, still has their importantly saliently confidence about their memories and constantly makes announcement about how they remember everything, about everything. Well, sometimes what I’m telling you, the story, it’s not about a fact. It’s not a, sometimes it’s about a vibe and, and example of this from a couple years ago that has come up more than once. [01:18:00] Hey, mad, you’re not gonna believe who I saw at the coffee place. Jeff: Two. Merlin: Uh, I saw Melissa from preschool. Melissa? Yeah. You know, the one with the daughter who did long list of things? That is all shit that happened. Oh, you mean Alyssa? Jeff: Yeah. Yep. Merlin: Because now you’ve made the story fun, but the shame on me for trying to bond. Jeff: Thank you for that bow. Merlin: Uh, uh Are you, are you watching the Murdochs? Jeff: No, Merlin: Oh, Jeff: uh, hold on, hold on. I, I, I said it wrong a minute ago. We could have, if we had eggs, we could have bacon and eggs. If we had bacon. That’s it. That’s the Marx Brothers thing I love. Merlin: um, I, I like to cite the one from, uh, duck Soup. When, uh, the one about who says to Margaret Dumont that you, you better, you better make, get a move on. I heard they’re gonna tear you down and put up an office, bu in our apartment building where you’re standing. [01:19:00] Um, you can leave in a minute if that’s too soon. No, you could leave, you could leave in a huff if that’s too soon, you can leave in a minute and a half. Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: You haven’t stopped talking since I came in here. Have, were you vaccinated with a phonograph needle? 1933. Boom, boom, boom. Jeff: that’s amazing. My dad still uses the one when he has a surgery where I’ll be able to play piano when I get out. Uh, yeah, sure. Oh Merlin: I couldn’t before Jeff: always wanted to play piano Good Merlin: Uhhuh. Uhhuh, I think, I think the one I heard was doctor Dr. Uh, Dr. Will I be able to play violin after Jeff: that’s what it is. Yeah. He does piano. He fucked it up. I’ll Merlin: it’s okay. ’cause I understand the point of the joke, and this is why you’re doing the thing. And this is why I say, say somebody, somebody, somebody that I love maybe might tell a story and go, yeah, I saw Alyssa. And I go, oh, that’s awesome. And we talked for a while. And then two minutes later, the person who is just a, an anonymous character, a Chekhov’s wife, uh, goes, I met Melissa. And then I would [01:20:00] go, I knew what you meant. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Grammar and Usage Pet Peeves Merlin: And I’m gonna tell you something that I tell all my kids, by which I mean everybody in my life, I will only, I will almost never correct you about anything. And if I’m confused, I might ask a question. But I would love it if we all got out of the correcting business. ’cause I don’t think it Brett: on that. I’ve, Merlin: hard. No, it’s hard not to. It’s the Brett: been a well actually guy Merlin: Well some, ’cause sometimes it’s important Brett: but I see it in other people Merlin: if you’ve created a confusion. Brett: necessary? Yeah. Merlin: Well, Like if I started talking Brett: if I’m gonna, press a point, it’s because I feel that understanding it is important, that the clarity is important to understanding it. And like in those moments I can, I can justify saying, do you mean this or do you mean that? And, but people can take that the [01:21:00] wrong way. They can take that as a criticism Merlin: I, I, I will, I will. Very rarely. I think I could be wrong. I could be very wrong, and frankly I don’t care. But I, I really feel in my bones that I am not a correcting guy. I’m also not an, I told you so guy. I’ve really worked on that. It does not help anybody. I’m not a correcting guy. If I have questions, if I was confused about what you said, like I, I think I have a pretty good idea what you’re saying, what you’re describing though. And I think what, what I’m, what we’re describing though is like if I started going off, like I don’t know much about sports, but if I went off on the Jag about the San Antonio Spurs and started talking about this one player that I’m very interested, that plays there, and I talked about this for five minutes, not really knowing what I’m talking about. And then at some point somebody realizes, is there any chance that you were actually talking about the um, Oklahoma City Thunder? And I would go, oh, that might be it. That is a totally coro, I think you Jeff: interesting. ’cause what I was just thinking, I do a ton of interviewing for my work now and when I was a journalist, and I don’t tend to correct people when I have a feeling what they’re saying is wrong. I will, after the interview [01:22:00] look at it and think, I wonder if they meant this, and then write Merlin: But that’s, that’s one. ’cause language is a virus. Ooh. Like it’s Jeff: an energy killer too, right? Like Merlin: Oh, it, it Jeff: injected something into the conversation that ruins the flow and the trust as well. Merlin: I, I, I totally agree. But then there are, so like, I mean, over here on this other end, though, of course, just ’cause on how I am, there are the usage things that I think, but right up against. That’s not what you think it means. Like, I, I know when you say, I just, I don’t like when people say things, dumb things, pretentiously or pretentious things in a dumb way. And this is a f I’m Jeff: the proverbial ex. Merlin: could be, could be. Jeff: That’s an example. Merlin: Well, I’ll give you some examples. And this is what, uh, these are dumb guy problems because if you’re a dumb guy, uh, you have learned ways to mask being a dumb guy by saying things that you’ve decided sounds smart. And you’ve heard people say something a bunch of times and you know, I I, I’m not saying this is a catastrophe that’s gonna end civilization. We’ve got plenty of [01:23:00] other candidates for that. But like wars do mean things. And one of the ways the communication, and it isn’t that it can never change, I understand that when I say out of pocket, that means somebody who’s unavailable when anybody under my age says out of pocket, it means they were acting all crazy. And like I know that. And when I talk to somebody, I can know that now out of pocket used to mean they they can’t be contacted. Brett: with you. Yeah, Jeff: Yep. Merlin: Well, and now I know that. And so I, how do I avoid that? Well, I cut the fucking Gordian knot by not saying out of pocket to people who I think might take it in a different way. Then there’s the other dumb guy stuff. Gotta pull this up. Um, well, you know, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Donald Trump is tearing down, uh, part of the White House, which begs the question, Jeff: Ah, can we do, can we do radio reporting stuff now? Merlin: well, let’s do, we could just do a classic. Well, I think what you mean is it probably, I think what you mean is it raises the question, Jeff: Yeah. Merlin: it does raise that question, but it doesn’t beg that question because not a, that’s not a specific [01:24:00] logical fallacy that you’re trying to identify. Jeff: you’d be forgiven for asking, Merlin: Oh, I could not overstate this more. I heard someone say three times yesterday, and each time I’m muttered increasingly less under my breath. Actually, you super could overstate it and you just did. It cannot, it cannot be overstated how much rain is gonna fall in Jamaica. And I would say, well, if you’re saying that, uh, whatever, 20 to 30 inches, which is a fuck ton of rain, I mean, you don’t need to, you don’t need to jazz that up. 30 inches of rain in a day Jeff: they started saying and they started saying three feet today, I think when I Merlin: Uh, they said three feet. I heard that yesterday as well. But, but no, no, no, no. But, but just, just, just the idea of like, I cannot over, well, you can overstate it. Just don’t overstate the fact of it. What you’re over, the part that you’re overstating is the ential part, which is how strongly you feel about making a big deal about it. I’m gonna pull up my usage. Jeff: Well, you do that. I’m gonna tell you one of my proudest moments as a father. So my kids have had to hear me [01:25:00] rant forever about when a, a radio journalist says, but some disagree. And, and my son, who works for his student newspaper, wrote on their April Fool’s Day, uh, story. This long story. It was hilarious. And the last fucking words were, but some disagree. it was beautiful. And I thought that is the funniest thing. He was, he did. It was satire. He was doing it for me. It was a little, it was an Merlin: that’s so, that is, man. Do you realize how lucky you are to have that? Isn’t that sweet? You’re gonna appreciate Jeff: Oh my God, I appreciate it. Now my, I felt like a hug. All right. Where’s your usage guide? Merlin: Well, I’m screwing up our whole, uh, our app intents. Brett: Yeah, we’re gonna skip, we’re gonna skip the, we’re gonna skip that. We’re gonna, we’re gonna Merlin: I have such, I have such a good one for you. Maybe in the after show. I, I, I, I have, I have a game changer that involves my action button and drafts. Jeff: you might as well say it, Merlin: Maybe I should do my Jeff: but do your usage then. Let’s do it. I Merlin: No. No. Now see, like the problem is yeah, you play the [01:26:00] trout. Uh, what’s better? Should I send it to you? In the cockamamie app or in the text messages Thread cockamamie app. Better. Brett: to a text. I Merlin: Okay. I think that’s you guys. Uh, this is on GitHub. This is a gist called usage. I dislike, sorry. This is called usage. I dislike, uh, AKA, an epicenter of wordsmithing for the enterprise. Don’t. Here, Here, I’m just gonna do these rapid Jeff: Okay. Merlin: Don’t say this if you really may mean this. ’cause you can say signage. Signage has a meaning, but don’t say signage if you just mean a sign. Don’t say enterprise. If you mean big company. Not everybody’s an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur. Some people just own a company. Like artisanal really just kinda means fancy epicenter guys. Wordsmith learnings. Price point. Oh, you mean the price? Oh, you know the price point. Well tell me, tell me in two sentences how a price point is different than a price in a way that is salient to how anybody would use that term. Learnings. Gimme Jeff: Okay, hold on. You have words. Discount [01:27:00] convergence. What is a discount conversion? What do you mean when you say that? Merlin: because you take a part of speech and adapt it to be a different part of speech in a way that weakens rather than strengthens the usefulness of the word. Is there anything you’ve ever experienced? I know that was a big ask, but as one of the ho hopefuls as uh, the, who could, somebody who could oust the person who pens any of this stuff. I just wanted to detail you on some of the ways that creatives are working on that spend. It’s a big ask. Jeff: For anybody not looking at the list, which is probably most of you right now, Marilyn is Merlin: If it sounded like you had NPR on, that’s because you did. Jeff: Yeah, exactly. It is a random sentence generator for a Merlin: Hi, I’m 25. I’m 25 and used to have a blog. Now I write for something. I guess. Well, that hopeful has been ousted and that’s why we penned this and why I’m detailing all the creatives on the Jeff: rush to the hospital. Mm-hmm. Merlin: Yeah. Unlike those times, Jeff: When we amble, Merlin: double down. Double down has got double down, has got to end. Jeff: It’s gotta Merlin: And then not penultimate, like, do you [01:28:00] understand? Penultimate is such a good dumb guy word because they think it means even more ultimate. Jeff: Even more. Yeah. It’s a great one. Merlin: Okay. And then here, and, and I’m, this is not addressed to anybody. I’m just gonna put this out there. If you’re ever wondering in usage, in grammar, here’s a really good trick. You know, sometimes it’s difficult to know once you use the objective or subjective term of different pronouns or um, verbs. And so you might say something like, um, Jeff and I. Uh, went to the Dairy Queen and you say, oh, I, is it Jeff and I or Jeff and me? Well, here’s the Brett: take out Jeff: Mm-hmm. Merlin: And so yeah, go, walk me through that, Brett. How does that work? How, how does that sound when you, when you do that, if you’re, if you, in your mind, you’re thinking, am I getting this right? So how do you do it? Brett: yeah, so if you’re, if it was Jeff and I, Jeff and I went to the ice cream shop, you would just take out Jeff and say, I went to the ice cream shop. Merlin: Does it make sense If it’s just one of those Brett: you wouldn’t say me. Went to the ice cream shop. It gets a little weird with certain conjugations. Um. Especially with [01:29:00] she and I are in love. You wouldn’t say I are in love, but you also wouldn’t say, me are in love. So like in that case it’s I, But, Merlin: But, but, but like, here’s the thing is when you’re a little kid, you think that, and I is, sounds fancier. So you would say, oh, ’cause like things like the king and I, so you would say like, um, you might say something if you were using it when you should be using the objective, you are using a subjective, so you would say something like, uh, they went to the Dairy Queen with Jeff and I, did I get that right? No, I didn’t because it would be Jeff and me because they went with me. Okay. I’m Jeff: I, I do this almost every day. The same way you hold your fingers up to see which one is Merlin: left and right. Oh, oh. All the time. Jeff: kind of trick. Merlin: Um, so here’s the thing. Uh. Avoid. ’cause people tend to prefer, if they wanna sound smart, they wanna sound not like a dumb guy because you sound like a dumb guy who drinks from a jug. If you always use the objective form and you say, um, me want food Jeff: Mm-hmm.[01:30:00] Merlin: GenOn 30 rock me want. So you say, I want food, you know, like a civilized person. Me want food. But like, if you wanna sound fancy, you always go to the subjective form. So you say I, you know, so, um, you know, uh, vacationed with wi uh, withnell and I, but you know, there’s almost never a need to say myself unless you are a rural Irish poet. You don’t need to refer to yourself as myself. I, that’s a classic Jeff: I says to myself, says I, Merlin: I said, I said, oh my God. I got tied up with my own shoe laces tied to the radiator. Were you just doing grandpa from dairy, girls Jeff: was doing column from, Yeah. Merlin: yeah, uncle from dairy girls. Jeff: Yeah. best. Merlin: he says to me, says. Jeff: my wife and I say that nonstop. Merlin: He just got tied to a radio with his own shoelaces. It’s just not as nice. Derry Girls and TV Recommendations Merlin: Um, Brett, this is a very, very, very funny comedy on Netflix called Dairy Girls. And it’s Oh, okay. Um, Jeff: Watched it twice. Merlin: the episode with the tests and the dog peeing and the [01:31:00] Jesus crying. It’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever Jeff: Ever fucking put on Merlin: Just the, the just all, all the scenes that, uh, I can’t, you guys can’t see me, but I’m, when, when there’s a scene where she thinks Peter thinks Peter the priest thinks she’s special and she’s trying to explain that to the Mother Superior and like, just that entire scene. And did you ever notice that? Um, what’s her head? Uh, who’s the girl? Who’s the girl I like? Um, who’s the funny one? Mar Mar Jeff: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is this the one that’s also in Bridger, Merlin: she’s, she’s, always, no, no. Oh, I love her too. RoCE Royce. But what’s her name? She’s always eating something. The weird girl is always eating. She’s always putting something in her mouth and she like, Hmm. Good point. Um. Myself. That’s so funny. Call him. And, you know, you know who’s in that, you know, who plays grandpa in that? Jeff: Hmm. Merlin: Uh, just a little guy named Sir Baron Sway. Jeff: Who is Merlin: Uh, Jeff: Let me pull up call sheet, which Merlin: hanging the hang of the, uh, uh, head of the Kings Guard, uh, in the early parts of Game of Thrones. And remember, remember, he won’t go all in for Gioffre who [01:32:00] sucks and starts, he gets him fired, and then he goes and he rescues Denarius from the Scorpion Robot. Remember when the kid throws the scorpion robot and he goes and puts a dagger through it? Jeff: yeah. I didn’t realize that was grandpa. Crazy. Merlin: that actor. And I’ve just watched several things with a guy named, uh, a guy called, as they say, as John. John, uh, s says, Rory Coler. Rory. But the rural ju, the guy who plays twins on our flag means death. Oh, oh, sorry. Fucking TRO Bridge. Jeff: Trobridge. Merlin: TR Bridge, fucking TRO Bridge. Jeff: That’s, uh, Brett, that’s the diplomat, which you must watch. Trobridge is unbelievable. Merlin: Trevor is fucking great. That guy. Rory K. Rory k. He also Jeff: nickel. Merlin: have you Hmm? Have you seen, this is UN releasable. I love this, but don’t release this. Have you seen, Have you seen, you could tell I’m getting really into it. ’cause I’m starting to do, y’all can’t see this, but I’m starting to do [01:33:00] my Steven Sondheim hand gestures. Jeff: Yeah. It’s like a solar Merlin: When Steven, when Steven Sondheim is instructing someone on how to sing, he does a lot of this kind of stuff. Brett: Mm. Merlin: It’s got that guy and he, who’s also does a lot of good Shakespeare stuff and he’s in a fantastic movie. I wanna recommend, uh, called Men Starring the Great Jesse Buckley. Jeff: Oh Merlin: And it’s by that director I like. Jeff: Wow. That’s great. Merlin: don’t say myself if you can work around it now, see some of these last thing, some of these are just, I would avoid these if you can. And the same way that I would avoid. If I wanna say to my, the person who lives in my house, who’s a young person, I don’t like, somehow I can’t, I’m trying to get it past that. But if I say I wanna say to Billy, I wanna say, uh, let’s see. Uh, um, oh, um, if you don’t see me on fine, my if, because I’m in the tunnel, you know, I would just say I’m in the [01:34:00] tunnel. I wouldn’t say, if you don’t see me out, find my, it’s ’cause I’m out of pocket. ’cause it sounds like I’m personally conducting a riot. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, Merlin: So I would just avoid that usage because if there’s a, if there’s, and this is why we like words people, especially word people, is that if is a more specific word, that if it, it has the, the meaning that you want and the feel that you want, you know, like, like the kind of thing where like Sue Sue Perkins calls, you know, calls Alex Horn like a human shit stand or something. Like there’s certain kinds that have so much power to it. Jeff: yeah. Merlin: You know, gone missing really? Has the person gone missing? Did they turn up missing? Is that, is that a sentence that you’re proud of? This person has gone, where did they go? They went missing. You could just say the person Jeff: I, what I love about this is we’ve tipped over into fucking grandpa mode and here and another one, God damnit. Merlin: Yeah. Well, you like to interview people. You, you like to interview people. You ever sit down with somebody or catch [01:35:00] up with them? And when you do sit down or catch up with them, do they Jeff: of ’em, I share the learnings. Merlin: and leavings, because you should clean up the leavings before the next people get the Jeff: end trails. Merlin: And, and so you say, Brett: are indefatigable. Jeff: Oh, Merlin: oh, I don’t think we say that anymore. We do not say that anymore. Jeff: I love that word. Invariable. Commensurate. Brett: I’m gonna ask for an exception. I, I’m fading. I can’t, I can’t go on. Do you guys wanna just go on without me? Merlin: No, no. We should stop. Jeff: that’s, that’s a But we’re not gonna leave you behind. Don’t never leave a man Merlin: But, but if you’re in a place you’ve never been before that would nobody’s been. That’s, that’s unchartered Jeff: He’s Merlin: territory. Because if there’s no chart for it, it’s uncharted. Jeff: Oh my God. Merlin: Gilligan’s Island Brett: side, side, side, side note, did you Jeff: It’s all side notes, Brett: did you know that it’s not chomping at the bit, Merlin: it’s champing at the bit? Brett: chomping at Jeff: champing at the Merlin: It’s absolutely Brett: lifetime not Merlin: I don’t correct people ’cause I know what they meant. But it is [01:36:00] technically champing Jeff: What’s it mean? Championing. Merlin: because a champ is the thing is not the thing that a horse is biting on. It’s, isn’t that called champing? Brett: I, Jeff: they were biting Merlin: Chomping. Chomping is what teens do to popcorn. And Jeff: bit was the champ. Merlin: what? It’s a problem with Brett: I learned that this was a thing, I understood why, but I have already forgotten why. All I came away with Concluding Thoughts and Sign-Off Merlin: Let’s wrap this up and get Brett outta here. We’re, we’re not gonna release this anyway, right? Are we? Brett: Uh, Jeff: We’re gonna release it at half speed, That was so fun. Thanks Merlin. Merlin: Oh, thank you. Wait, is that’s the, that’s the show, right? Brett: you. That’s the That is, I’m gonna, I’m gonna hit stop. Merlin: Bye. Jeff: What we’ve gotta say, get some sleep or, uh, what do you wanna do here? Hmm? Brett: Hey, you we doing here? Merlin: Hey, sleep. Jeff: Hmm. hey, hey.

On this episode of Overtired, Christina Warren, Jeff Severns Guntzel, and Jay Miller dive into tech talk, nonprofit initiatives, and some unexpected baseball chat. Jeff raves about his foray into Linux, while Jay updates us on Black Python Devs and their efforts to support developers in Latin America. Christina brings her Mac app gratitude like a pro, and baseball makes its way into the conversation more than once. Expect laughs, tech tips, and a lot of goodwill.

After a two-month hiatus, Brett Terpstra and Christina Warren return with guest Erin Dawson for a lively episode. They kick things off by catching up on mental health, summer highlights, and adventures in sobriety. Topics range from the Mac OS X Tahoe update, the enduring love for code editors like VS Code and Cursor, to an elaborate rant about Quip's decline. This episode features a special 'Fuck, Marry, Kill' edition of grAPPtitude!

Join Brett Terpstra and Christina Warren as they navigate through a Jeff-less episode filled with jet ski jealousy, nostalgic TV, and movie marathons. Delve into the highs of coding joy, the lows of tech troubles, and the steady rhythm of maintaining mental health. Plus, stick around for a dive into Mac shortcut tools and musings on the ever-evolving Apple ecosystem.

In this episode of Overtired, Brett and Jeff go it on their own as Christina is out for the week. The duo kicks things off with a mental health check-in, then dives into Brett’s carpal tunnel surgery saga, the joys and pains of recovery, and the unexpected logistics of same-day surgery in small-town Minnesota. They swap stories about recent punk and metal shows, reflect on the enduring power of live music, and discuss the emotional aftermath of a shocking political event in Minnesota. The conversation weaves through tech, music nostalgia, and app recommendations. Sponsor The latest 360-degree camera from Insta360, the Insta360 X5, launched April 22nd and shoots full 360-degree videos in incredible 8K30 resolution. To bag a free 114cm invisible selfie stick worth US$24.99 with your Insta360 X5 standard package purchase, head to store.insta360.com and use the promo code overtired. Chapters 00:00 – Intro & Banter 00:38 – Mental Health Check-in 01:52 – Carpal Tunnel Surgery 09:51 – Napalm Death and The Melvins 16:53 – Political Events in Minnesota 28:35 – Sponsor Break: Insta360 57:35 – App Recommendations 71:08 – Show Wrap-up Show Links Napalm Death The Melvins soma-zone Ammonite Mac File Finding Gems Brett’s Web Excursions The Complete Collection of MTV’s Headbangers Ball Bullet Boys – Hang on St. Christopher Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Not As Nerdy As I Thought [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, you’re listening to Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with just, just severance gun. So Christina Warren, due to scheduling conflicts, cannot be with us this week. Um, so you are in for a Brett and Jeff nerdy episode. Um, not that Christina can’t get nerdy like she totally can and does, but something we get, we get weirdly like not productivity nerdy when it’s just the two of us. I don’t know. Jeff: Yeah. Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Mental Health Check-in Brett: So, um, we can kick it off with our, our usual mental health coroner. Mine is pretty short and sweet. Um, mentally I am. Finding myself just extremely happy with not having a job. Um, not enjoying the, like the health insurance loop, uh, [00:01:00] hurdles and not having like predictable regular income as, but not, I’m not, not enjoying it so much so that I don’t appreciate having all this time to just focus on like my commercial projects and all of this coding, and I’m finding it super rejuvenating to just like wake up in the morning and start coding and take regular breaks to do whatever the fuck I want. And then. Ultimately, like the, the next version of Marked is the biggest leap marked has ever made in functionality. And I’m super proud of what I’m about to release, and I think it’s gonna be profitable, but also like extremely useful. And that’s all just really good for my mental health. Carpal Tunnel Surgery Brett: I did have, um, carpal tunnel surgery. Jeff: Ooh, look at that. He just raised his fist in [00:02:00] the land of hypocrisy. Uh, Brett: It, I did the total like black power fist too, but yeah, I have a Jeff: you’re white, which makes it a problematic white power fist, but whatever. At least it’s got a gash in it. Brett: Yes. So they did just one small incision. They stuck a camera into my palm through that incision and snipped, uh, not, not, uh, ligament across the middle of my palm. And um, that led to a couple days of super achy hand and they gave me no painkillers. So I’ve just been working with Tylenol and Ibuprofen for a couple days, but today doing pretty good. I got the bandage off this morning. And, um, I will say as far as mental health goes, pain is, um, very detrimental to my mental health. [00:03:00] Uh, I, I am very sensitive to pain. Like I have tattoos, I have brands. I’ve, I’ve been through a lot of things where I intentionally like subjected myself to pain, but mostly because pain, because I’m so sensitive to pain. I also get like a major endorphin rush off of pain. And so like I kind of just seek it out. But there are a couple types of pain, like low lying aches and tooth pain that I get zero pleasure from. Jeff: Tooth pain is brutal. Brett: I hate it so much. I hate it. I hate it so much. Um, but yeah, so that’s my mental Jeff: Was the surgery like a outta nowhere thing or did you have it planned Brett: Um, so I’ve had numbness in my fingers, uh, especially on my right hand, but moving into both hands for like five years now. And I had had wrist pain a long [00:04:00] time ago and had been diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome and had, uh, completely revamped my working setup to be more ergonomic and changed all of my habits in the pain. Jeff: keyboards? Brett: Yeah. And the pain, the pain went away. Um, and then a while later, the numbness started and I didn’t associate that with carpal tunnel. And I finally got into, uh, neurology at Gunderson Health and they did some testing and they did, it’s called an EMG, where they hook up like electrodes and they shock your hand and it bounces all over the place. And they determined that, yes, I have bilateral carpal tunnel causing numbness in my two first two fingers, in my thumb on both hands. And so they said, when would you like the surgery? And I was like, well, anytime I’m, I got nothing going on. And they’re like, how about tomorrow? [00:05:00] Um, Jeff: Wow. Gunderson Health has some openings. Brett: right in Winona too, like Gunderson Health is mostly doctors that work out of the slightly larger lacrosse, Wisconsin, and they travel to Winona usually once a week. So if you want an appointment in Winona, and the, the clinic is literally a three minute drive from my house, so I prefer to just do it in Winona. But if you wanted in Winona, you gotta wait until a doctor is there for once a week and happens to be available. And in this case, the surgeon was there the next day and had an opening and it, it, I was in there at like seven in the morning Jeff: Wow. Brett: I was there until, like, the surgery takes five minutes, but, Jeff: minutes. Brett: but I, but I did the prep, which involved like a bizarre amount of mouthwash and nose iodine. Jeff: I mean, obviously, or maybe that’s just the Gunderson way Brett: What, [00:06:00] like they’re like, this Jeff: you want your surgery tomorrow. All right, here’s your mouthwash. Be ready. Brett: this has been proven to reduce infection. If you like, use all this mouthwash, clean your nose for like two minutes straight with iodine swabs and wash your hands from fingertip to elbow for three minutes per side. Um, Jeff: like Robert f Kennedy’s America. Brett: yeah. But anyway, but so like I did the prep and then I waited for like two hours and then they give me, it was partial and like I don’t, partial anesthetic, I think it’s called. They don’t put you completely under. So I remember the whole thing. I remember them putting a blue tent over my head and pulling my arm out and I remember being about to Jeff: thing sounds like you’re describing a dream about a carpal tunnel surgery Brett: I remember being Jeff: tent and then the mouth, the mouthwash was still leaking from my mouth and my nose.[00:07:00] Brett: it was a little dreamy. I remember being about to ask if I could watch the surgery and they, they pulled the te, the blue tent back and they’re like, okay, we’re done. But I didn’t feel anything. Like the anesthetic apparently worked really well. Like I was conscious, but I didn’t know they had even touched my hand. Jeff: That’s bizarre. Brett: Yeah. So anyway. Jeff: My God. That’s cool. I’ve always wondered about doing that surgery. I got the, I got the C ct, I got the carton, and, uh, and it’s very uncomfortable. And, uh, but I Brett: you have pain or numbness or both? Jeff: I have a little bit of numbness. I have definite pain. I, the problem is I hate mouthwash. That’s, that’s what’s kept me from doing the surgery all this time. Brett: you’re killing Jeff: you’re, you’re more brave than me, Brett. Brett: So I get the other hand done in a month, Jeff: [00:08:00] Oh, wow. Brett: I can’t submerge this hand in water for four weeks. So really by the time I’m able to take a shower without a bag over my hand, I’ll have to do the other hand and I’ll still be taking a shower with a bag over my hand. Jeff: Wow. Ugh. Well, I’m, I’m glad. I hope it helps. It’s awesome. I mean, it seems like it does help. Usually I have people I Brett: Yeah. I already, so like I. The, my fingers were numb to the point where I couldn’t button a shirt and I couldn’t, like zipping up my fly. They’re numb on my right hand and I zip a fly with a right hand and I could not feel the tab on the, on the fly. Jeff: but fuck it. You work from home Brett: sweatpants. That’s the answer. Um, but like, so I was zipping myself up with my left hand and. All these things that like you just take for [00:09:00] granted. Like my over the, my, uh, bone conducting headphones have buttons right behind the ear for turning them on and off and fast forward play pauses, et cetera. But you’re supposed to be able to feel them with your thumb and order to tell what button you’re hitting. And I couldn’t tell if I was hit a hitting a button, let alone what button. And now, and wait, hold on. It was supposed to take up to a year for me to get feeling back after this surgery. And even two days later, I can feel my zipper already. Jeff: Oh, that’s so good. Because you know what, if I can’t feel my zipper, I don’t even feel like I’m alive. I’m holding onto it right now. You know what, my, my son and I went and saw, uh, napalm Death in the Melvins at First Avenue and um, uh, it was about a two or three weeks ago now. Napalm Death and The Melvins Jeff: Um, napalm Death, I mean, they were both the Melvins and Napalm Death were both phenomenal. Um, but, uh, napalm death, their singer, [00:10:00] who’s, I mean, if you, if if you haven’t seen this guy in action recently or at all, you should people just Google like their recent shows ’cause he’s a trip. Um, and he is, and he is fantastic. And he is an incredible, just like, Brett: He’s gotta be 50, 55 Jeff: He’s gotta be older than that. But I don’t know. I don’t know. But anyway, um, he came out and he had these super skinny jeans on with like suspenders. He’s, he’s really skinny. He wasn’t always really skinny, but he was really skinny. Um, and, uh, and his fly was down a little bit. Like the kind of way that if your pants are weird, it just won’t go all the way up. Right? And, Brett: are pretty much all the time. Jeff: There’s a point at which the crowd just couldn’t stand it anymore. And, and they were yelling at him between songs. The S Fly is Down, which may not even have been something that translates to British, uh, English that well. And, uh, and he couldn’t make it out. And he just kept, he kept saying like, I can tell that what you are saying to me is important. I cannot understand what you’re saying. It seems that this is important to a lot of people. then he finally figured it out and he is like, oh, my zip. [00:11:00] Yeah. Brett: Oh, that’s Jeff: also just the fact that if you know nothing about Napalm Death, but the name, the fact that the singer is utterly delightful is, and, and just incredibly charming is not something that even I totally expected. Um, Brett: Napalm Death was one of my first metal albums after Cannibal Corpse Jeff: Who I’m also going to see at First Avenue. Brett: Nice, I can’t believe these guys are still around. But, um, the thing, I, I enjoyed it. It was okay. I was in middle school. I ended up liking Metallica better after I found, uh, and Justice for All. Um, but. Then, uh, alternative tentacles put out, uh, I can’t remember the name of the album, but it was all covers of Dead Kennedy’s songs and Napal death did Nazi punk’s fuck Jeff: Yep, yep, Brett: it re, it renewed my interest in Napal death, and, and I got back into them after that. [00:12:00] But Jeff: What a great band. It was a phenomenal show. I’m not a Napalm death person. I’ve barely listened to them in my life. I was there for the Melvins for sure. Um, and, uh, and they, man, did they win me over. Oh Brett: Should I, should I give the Melvins another chance? Like I never, Jeff: she give the Melvins a daily chance. Brett: yeah. Jeff: I mean, it’s a, it is a phenomenal band. There’s still no one that sounds like them. Um, and, and they’re, I mean, actually one of my topics, so let’s, let’s put a little like, as they say, pin in this. ’cause uh, my first topic is related to that show and a bunch of shows I’ve been seeing, and it is about age and all these things. Um, so we’ll talk about it. But, um, I mean, I’m a, yeah, I’m a huge fan and have been forever. Um, didn’t think I needed to see them again until I saw they were coming. And it was the best show over theirs I’ve ever seen. Um, it was unbelievable. Anyway, uh, I’m, you know, my, my, uh, my corner in my corner, uh, it’s kind of a similar like, uh, medical theme. I, you know, I, I go like months not tending to the things [00:13:00] that are just like barking out at me that need attention from a doctor or a specialist or something. And I kind of just beat myself up because I can’t figure out why I’m not just making the call. ’cause it’s pretty easy to make those appointments to stay and age. Um, you don’t have to call people. And, uh. I finally just kinda like had the right shift and made all this, I do this every year, made all the calls made about six appointments, you know, and so I’m going through like a three week period where I’m, well, some of them I don’t have till October, but, and it’s been awesome. It’s like a awesome, uh, it’s awesome to know I’m tending to myself, um, and, uh, and always like some new discovery where it’s like, oh, I’ve been suffering that for 10 years, but I decided to finally ask somebody about it and look, they have an answer, wouldn’t you know? Uh, well that was in Minnesota. Wouldn’t, you know, down here at Gunderson Health, we’ve got a solution for you. Uh, um, yeah, so that’s just been, [00:14:00] it’s been nice. It’s a relief every time I go into these. Places and, and have something tended to. So it’s really great. It’s a, it’s dispiriting how, how there are things that feel urgent that you can’t schedule before October for, um, apparently not at Gunderson Health, Brett: No. Uh. Jeff: in my system. Brett: In, in general, Gunderson schedules me a couple months out, but not until October. I Jeff: Oh yeah, no, and that was just like an endocrinologist. It’s not even like a big, you know, it’s like just, it’s a video visit. I mean, it is like, it’s, it’s just crazy. Um, but as a transition out of this, because we’ve said Gunderson so many times, which anybody not from Minnesota or Wisconsin or maybe Iowa, definitely Iowa, uh, doesn’t understand how it almost causes a Midwestern or a Minnesota person to like, release hormones or something. It’s like, it’s that, it’s, it’s that much Brett: that, or Mayo that Gunderson or Mayo both have, [00:15:00] both have, uh, endorphin reactions. Jeff: doesn’t get the Saudi prince’s, Mayo does, but that’s fine. That’s fine. That’s why Gunderson can schedule you same day for a heart surgery. Um, I heard there was some wildfires up, up this way and, uh, there’s an airplane going over my house right now. I don’t know if you can hear it. It’s extremely loud. Um. There was a, there were wildfires here, an amazing Minnesota moment on Minnesota Public Radio where there’s a sheriff, it’s up north. Everything you picture about Fargo and the way that they talked in that movie, it’s like little exaggerated, but not always much. Um, depending on who you’re talking to. And the further up north you get, the more likely you do. It’s true. You get that. Um, and uh, the sheriff was talking about having to go in and evacuate a couple people who didn’t wanna leave. And he is like, and there was one old guy over by the lake there, and uh, he told me the only way he’s leaving his house is toes up. It was, it was made my, like, my heart just so warm and it made me feel like this is my home. Brett: So like are [00:16:00] there wildfires in Minnesota or are Jeff: They’ve calmed down now, but there were some, um, up north in Minnesota and then there were definitely the ones in Canada, which made our, did you get the smoke all the way down in Winona? Brett: Our, our air quality, like a week ago we had like four days of poor air quality and then it was okay for two days and then right back to poor air quality. And I am, I cannot sleep without my CPAP right now. And I am short of breath all day and yeah, it’s killing me Jeff: Yeah. That’s brutal. Um, well, okay, so you put political murder on the show, uh, uh, on the list and, and I’ll wait ’cause we’ll come out of it with my, um, my punk rock shows topic ’cause that’ll be a nice thing to come out of. Brett: a as a, as a palate cleanser. Jeff: ’cause a palate cleanser from political from assassination. Brett: Yeah. I just, Political Events in Minnesota Jeff: We’re in Minnesota is the context. Everyone heard about Minnesota this past week. Brett: everyone heard about it. It was national [00:17:00] news, but, um, it was shocking to me. The whole thing is just fucked up. Like, I get assassination attempts, but the, like, the deliberateness of like impersonating a police officer going in and murdering, hitting multiple houses and having like a whole hit list of, of democratic representatives and governors that, that you wanna hit is, I wouldn’t, if this is ha if this had happened to Republicans, I I would not be gleeful about it. Like it is, it is not, I will admit, like there’s part of me that thinks that if Trump had been assassinated a long time ago, things might have been moving more slowly towards fascism than they are. Um, but I don’t, [00:18:00] I, I don’t think political assassination is an answer because I. New heads just pop up. Like if, if your goal is productivity in this space, um, Jeff: And this, this at some point was a productivity PO podcast, Brett: if your, if your goal is productivity, you’re not accomplishing anything by killing figureheads. Um, and it’s at that point it’s just murder that affects like real people. You’re not accomplishing political goals in the way you think you might be. And yeah, it was. And, and so, and then I guess the thing that I wanted to talk about was kind of the fact that like Waltz came out and said, don’t go to the no Kingsburg test, Jeff: as people were driving out to Brett: yeah. Jeff: was the state patrol first Brett: because the, at that point, the killer had not been caught still at large, and everyone felt [00:19:00] unsafe, especially in. Kind of the liberal sphere and, um, what, 80,000 people still showed up. Jeff: Across Minnesota 80,000. Yeah. There were like 25,000 in St. Paul. Um, and it was really just great vibes there. And, um, yeah. Yeah, I I, I feel like the state patrol kind of had no choice but to say, don’t go. It would be good negligent to not do it, but I didn’t, I didn’t get the sense anyone was, you know, it was great. Brett: Yeah. So I, and I bring this up because you were, you were much closer to all this than I was. I was watching it from afar. I was just kind of curious about your take and how you felt about it. Jeff: I, it’s really stunning and awful and, and, um, it’s, it’s just crazy when it’s your local legislature. Like it’s, it’s very, it’s not what you. Expect Melissa Hartman was great. Um, I don’t know much about John Hoffman. Um, doesn’t [00:20:00] matter that they were great, they shouldn’t have died. Uh, but it’s, it’s just, it was, yeah. And the, the, it was a little fascinating as those things tend to be, um, just this strange and bold way in which he did this, the difficulty in kind of tracing, he had a weird life. He’s sort of a intense dude, but trying to trace anybody’s life to political assassination is, doesn’t, you can’t find that road that easily. Right? Like, that’s the, that’s so strange to me. And he, and he went to two other, um, lawmaker’s homes between the two that, um, he shot up, which is something came out yesterday and it was fucking chilling. Like, one of those, one of those people were just, they were on vacation, uh, but he was knocking at their door for a long time. Like, I just can’t imagine. Yeah. My brain always goes to the like. Just to the human thing that we can murder. Like I’ve met a fair amount of murderers in my life just from work I did in death row. And um, it’s [00:21:00] really, I, because of that, I experience these types of things. I don’t know differently from a lot of people, but differently for most people. I know I’d see him when he was cuffed and being arrested and, or even in the security footage where he was kind of brilliantly hiding with a cowboy hat. Like, you wouldn’t think that would be a good idea, but then it was kind of like, well actually no, I’m not. That doesn’t seem like probably the guy. Um, but just knowing. I just looking at someone who’s killed in the last 24 hours and, and trying to, what are you even looking for? What are you, what can you even see? What do they feel like? It’s not like people who do that don’t feel anything afterwards, right? Like, he’s feeling something. I don’t know what he might be feeling. Numb or cold. He might be feeling a little confused about how he got there. He might be proud. I, I have no idea. But I get, I get pretty consumed by just the fact that as humans we can make this decision. And there’s been this really, I don’t know if you, you saw, [00:22:00] um, the interviews with his, he, he had a home in the, uh, you know, outstate. But then he had, um, he rented a room in north Minneapolis, um, with a couple of guys and, ’cause he would sometimes be in the city, it was apparently the story. And, um, one of the guys in that house was like his, his buddy since fourth grade. And he got, he was interviewed. Really as the day that it, you know, the news came out, he was interviewed and ’cause he got a text from the guy who was like, Hey, I’ve made some decisions. They were hard decisions. Uh, you know, I just want you to know I love you. Um, I may be dead soon. Um, and, and, and, you know, you had nothing to do with this or whatever. It almost was like, seemed like a very intentional sort of trying to help him be exonerated too, so that, ’cause this guy was so close to him. And, um, but he’s, you know, he is reading this text and he is just heaving crying. Um, you know, this is his friend who’s done this thing. And, and it was such a human moment and it, it humanized this guy that did this horrible, horrible [00:23:00] stuff too. And, and that guy was interviewed like every day for three days. And that was actually to me like. Kind of the most fascinating thread because it was, you were then seeing this. ’cause his family, we didn’t see his family. We don’t know any of his family. His wife, he has kids, they homeschooled them, but we don’t know, we never saw them, didn’t hear their names, nothing like that. But this guy just kept coming out for the reporters, um, on his, on his stoop and just sort of musing. Um, you know, and just, it all just unfolded. His processing unfolded in real time in, in these three or four interviews, and it was really intense to Brett: This is. This is, so this brings me to my big, uh, self searching question is, uh, with Luigi Mangione, I, I felt nothing for the victim, Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brett: um, or the victim’s family or any of the, the humans that [00:24:00] would be affected by this action. I saw it as a more, uh, political statement and one that I hoped would lead to revolution. And like I had a very different reaction to it. And I think, I think I’m searching right now to figure out why, uh, it’s on its face. It’s very hypocritical, and I’m searching for why I feel different about this. Like I said, like even if it had been, uh. A, a Democrat killing Republicans, like I would not have supported it. Like, I just, I don’t, I don’t see that being, just from a practicality standpoint, I don’t see it being useful. And from a human cost standpoint, I see it as terrible. Um, but I felt differently Jeff: Well, treading very carefully here. He the two. People who were shot and certainly their [00:25:00] spouses as well, which is, and, and they had to euthanize one of the dogs. And all this stuff is like, these were people that have a long history documented of helping people. Um, and so that, like, that could be one reason, right? Like, it’s just like, um, and I’m not, I’m not arguing for, um, lack of feeling towards the United Health guy who’s, by the way, name I can’t call up right now, which says its own as its own thing, right? Um, but you know, for me at least, like, it’s, it’s profoundly different. That doesn’t mean that I feel nothing for the victims in either case, but again, I end up weirdly thinking first about the people who, who did the thing. I mean, like, I, this is gonna sound kind of, I don’t this, I don’t want this to sound shallow, but like, if you’ve ever read Crime and Punishment. Sevki, which is an incredible sort of document of someone unraveling after committing a murder, a very strange murder that you can’t understand. But that he, it’s almost like this one. It’s [00:26:00] like I get the symbolism of what this guy did, um, over the weekend. Um, but I, I just can’t understand how he landed there, um, in any sort of, I don’t know why. Like with the Luigi Mangi thing, you kind of, you get, it’s very clear how he landed there on that person, on that, you know, it’s very easy to, for me and for you it sounds like, you know, easy to take in, but, um, but that is, yeah, I just get carried away honestly by the, I end up, it’s not even empathy exactly, but it’s just, that’s the victim is like that thing. It’s easy to instantly feel all the difficult feels about the victims and that was definitely the case here. Um, but anyway, and then the lighter, the, if I’m just being flip. Um, it occurred to me that Luigi, Luigi Magni was gorgeous, and this guy looked like every other middle-aged man walking through Brett: haven’t seen, I haven’t seen this guy. I don’t, I Jeff: You, you would recognize him as everybody’s [00:27:00] uncle in the western suburbs Brett: the Minnesota, every Jeff: Uh, everybody’s white uncle. I should be clear. Um, anyway, no, it’s really, it’s, it’s awful. It’s awful. My God. It’s just, it’s, it’s striking and what’s so, I mean, it’s striking. That was a stupid thing, but like the fact that he visited two others and just the weird chance of him, them encountering him when they did, not knowing how much further he could have gone. ’cause it was late, you know, it was like two or three in the morning. It’s like, eh, Brett: I will say it was nice to finally have people in authorities saying, don’t talk to cops. Jeff: Oh, that was so strange. Yeah. I don’t know if, I don’t know how much of this was, was in the national news, but what Brett’s referring to that was so striking was because this was a guy who showed up alone, impersonating a police officer. The thing that Minnesotans were told, and especially those in Brooklyn Park, which is a nearby suburb, um, actually it was more Plymouth, which where I lived in my last year of high school. It was like a [00:28:00] very unremarkable, um, suburb. Um, and, uh, everybody was told, if it’s a single officer that comes to your door, call 9 1 1. They’re, you know, everyone’s in pairs right now. And that was like a super interesting. That puts people, I mean, can you imagine being in that situation? Um, ’cause you can imagine, uh, there’s a scenario where they are out as partners, but suddenly they’re separated and want us to go to a door, whatever. Like it’s just, and if I’m the per, I mean, it’s just Jesus Christ. Like if it’s not two, it’s the killer. Like, fuck. Um, that was really, really incredible. Brett: I think it’s important for people to know that you can demand a warrant before you let any, before you even open the door for a cop, you can demand a warrant and you don’t have to talk to cops. And I think if people weren’t so trusting of police, maybe impersonating a police police officer wouldn’t be such an effective way Jeff: Yeah, but at the [00:29:00] same time, like just taking it as a a without this isn’t a rebuttal to what you’re saying at all. But at the same time, what was so striking about this is a, a cop shows up with sirens on at three in the morning, knocking on the door saying there’s been a shooting in the neighborhood. You’re opening the door. Yeah. Brett: I didn’t know Jeff: You’re opening the door like a, you know, and you’re a, you’re a state legisl, you’re a lawmaker. Right. Like you’re, you’re opening the door and, and that was. Brett: insidiously crafty. Jeff: He had a really freaky rubber mask on. Have you seen that Brett: No, I haven’t Jeff: ring camera photo. He, he was wearing like the rubber mask of a bald white man, and, but he had a big flashlight, so if he’s shining the flashlight, you can’t Brett: Uhhuh. Jeff: it right away, you know? Um, but yeah, it was a really just craven. Horrible, Brett: premeditated. Jeff: yeah, it was really awful. Brett: Wow. All right, so bring us back to some punk rock death metal. Jeff: Yeah. So, um, I have had such an interesting experience [00:30:00] over the last couple months ’cause I’ve been going to shows for the first time in a really long time. Um, and they’re exclusively the performances of men in this case who are. 10 to 15 years older than me, I’m 50. Um, and so it started with, I went to see, um, with Danny Gl Glamour, hi, Danny Glamour. I went to see Mike Watt, um, and his, and a group he’s in right now called MSSV, which was incredible. And it was at a small club here that Brett knows called The Turf Club. And so I could just stand right next to the stage and, and just, you know, I could hear, you know, I could, I could hear the guitar player click his pedals, you know, like you’re that close, which is just an incredible way to see music and kind of the only way mostly I’ve ever seen music since my, you know, since my arena days ended at about 17. Um. So we saw that show also, Greg Norton of Huskerdoo played with Charlie Parr, amazing blues guitarist from Minnesota in the, in the, [00:31:00] um, in the band. Before that, he had Greg Norton, another example. Then I went and saw Napalm Death and, and the Melvins. And um, and again, you got, you know, probably ranges are like late fifties to mid sixties there with all of those folks. And then, uh, we drove down to Des Moines, my boys and I, to see acid bath and high on fire. Um, Brett: either of those Jeff: yeah, I didn’t know acid bath, although now that I do, it’s bizarre. I didn’t, they were a band in the early nineties, kind of sounded like some of the, some of the early, like sub pop and SST and later SST and early, uh, sub pop, I, I guess later SST, they’re still around, but, um, but like, uh, maybe like, uh, early nineties. Sub pop, um, SST and Sub Pop. Anyway, they, um, they were a band that was from New Orleans, and they were, they’re, they’re considered what the kids call now, like sludge metal, but they have so many names for the metal now, these kids, um, and, and, uh, and, and they’re from New Orleans. And they, they put out two [00:32:00] records. And the reason they broke up was because their bass player died in a tragic car accident with his parents, actually. And so they broke up and, and now they’re back together after all these years. And my son came upon them and just really fell in love with the band and, and was like, if you heard these guys, he played, I’m like, what? I would’ve loved this. How did I miss this? Like 92, 94, I think with their two albums. Anyhow, so they’re, they’re doing this thing and that was amazing just because like, they have a, they have a following of fans who never thought it’s kinda like when Lint reunited never thought they would possibly see this band again. And this band was fucking vital. All these, and I saw High On Fire, which is. The guitarist and, and singer of sleep, the band sleep. Also just like an awesome, I don’t know if it’s sludge, metal, doom metal, I’m not sure. Um, but all of these people were, were older than me by 10 years, uh, I’d say on average. And they were so vital and so, so just completely present and, and mind blowing. And it was as good as any show I saw in the nineties when everyone was [00:33:00] 25, you know, and 30 and, and uh, and it kind of messed my head up a little bit ’cause like I, you know, I was in bands for shit Dale Kroger borrowed my drum set. Um, it was the Melvin’s drummer, uh, like I was in bands in those days. It was in the same label as the Melvins. Like I think of my rock days as over, they are over. And I’m not in a band. I haven’t been in a band since like 2007 or 2008. Um, and I just think of myself as like retired or something. ’cause like, I have no business playing loud punk rock music or something. But then here, here they all were and they were just. So fucking good. Brett: I saw, I saw Iggy Pop shortly after his 50th birthday Jeff: yeah. Which at this point, he was a child Brett: Yeah, come, yeah, that was, it was a while ago, but, um, but he was climbing Marshall Stacks and, and he, he cut his chest till it bled with his microphone [00:34:00] and like, was just all over the stage. And like, I had never seen, like I am old enough and grew up sheltered enough that this was the first time I had seen Iggy Pop. Live in any capacity. And I’ve seen videos. I, you know, I grew up in an an era of VHS bootlegs and like I had seen Iggy Pop, but I had never seen him live until he was 50 years old. And I swear it could have been, it could have been him from like the David Bowie era, like Iggy Pop. It was, yeah, it Jeff: well it’s because he is alive and an artist and that is sort of outside of time and he has been since he was, you know, 20 in The Stooges. He’s born in 1947. By the way, for anybody that doesn’t know Iggy Pop, like it’s a long time ago, he is still playing. I was just watching a TikTok of him yesterday, still playing shirtless at like [00:35:00] 400 years old. He is like a biblical character at this point. I saw him at First Avenue and, and he really, I mean, he is someone that changed me, um, just understanding Brett: Did, when did you see my first stab? Jeff: some at First Avenue on his American Caesar tour, which would’ve been somewhere around 94 or five, I think. Brett: I saw more like 2000, I don’t know, mid early two thousands. Um, Jeff: Yeah, Brett: it wasn’t the same show, Jeff: well he, he jumped off the stage and landed on me and I was holding him up by his chest and his head was, his forehead was pressed against mine and he had his microphone and he was screaming in those giant, if you haven’t seen it, he popped everyone probably has the beautiful giant eyes were just like in my eyes. And I think something happened to me that day. I think something passed into me. I can’t know what person I would’ve been without that, that moment, that cosmic moment. Brett: you know, who else is a really great performer, no matter how old they get is [00:36:00] Nick Cave. Jeff: Oh, unbelievable. Brett: Not, not your like punk rock jump off the stage kind of guy. But last time I saw him, he was. Over 50, maybe 60. I don’t know how old he is now, but I saw him a few years back and like, he was like, it was, it was at a smaller venue in Minneapolis. I can’t remember what the theater was, but like, it was a theater with like opera house seating. And like, he took his mic and he walked across the backs of the, the seats rows out into like eight rows deep in the audience. And like sang, um, I can’t remember the name of the new album, but he sang the title track like directly to a young woman in the crowd. And people are just like clawing at his legs. Like he’s not, he’s not huge. Most people I Jeff: skinny man. Brett: No, I mean like popularity Jeff: Oh, [00:37:00] popularity. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: I think most, most, most Americans ha haven’t heard of Nick Cave. Um, or at least haven’t heard Nick Cave. But for Jeff: be very confusing to you if you were watching him play. You would wonder how is it possible that I’ve never heard this man’s beautiful songs? Brett: for like his crowd, for his fans, it is a fanatical appreciation even for me, like I just. Like Nick Cave is like a God to me. Um, he, he, he commands, he’s like a tree. Jeff: yeah, Brett: the best, that’s the best metaphor I can come up with for Nick Cave. He’s like a tree that like protects you and, and weathers the storm. And he’s also like seven feet tall. At least it Jeff: he was short. Is he tall? He presents as very tall. Sorry, everybody. I Brett: tall. Jeff: and short.[00:38:00] Brett: He’s big. He’s hulking. Jeff: He’s um, he is one of those performers. Iggy Pop is one of those two that like you, it just pulls you out of yourself. Just when he walks on stage, it’s something you just, he’s so captivating and almost Brett: Yeah. No matter how self-conscious you are going into the show, you will forget about it and you will just be there to see Nick Cave or Iggy Pop or any of these vi vital characters. Jeff: from the Melvins Brett: Yeah. Any of these Jeff: Wearing a giant moo with eyeballs on it. Brett: draw you out of your own shit and into their show. Yeah. Jeff: And that’s, that’s been incredible for me too, is like, I, I stopped going to shows. I mean, I’ve gone to a few every, you know, maybe I don’t know what I’ve, I’ll go a year with no shows. I’ll go a year with two shows and now I’m just buying up tickets. Just bought, bought tickets to the acid bath show in Minneapolis. ’cause they have this amazing. Metal band I love called Wind Hand, which is the rare metal [00:39:00] band with a woman singer. Um, and I bought tickets to go see the Jesus SLIs. And by the way, most of my music listening is like folk and jazz. But if I’m gonna go to a concert, I want it to be so visceral, um, because that is the experience. You can’t, you can’t recreate. Brett: seeking. Jeff: Yes, exactly. And I got to be on the edge of mosh pits at all these shows, which was really delightful. Brett: But not in mosh pits. Jeff: Well, I got pulled in once and I could not get back out. You know, once you’re in, everyone thinks you want to be in, so you try to get out and they push you back in. I’m like, no, no, no, I’m not. I’m gonna die in Brett: belong here. Jeff: I don’t belong here. Look at me. Look at me. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: But I love that, I love the, the physicality of that too. Just getting banged into and, you know, whatever. I think that’s, it’s awesome. I thought those days were done for sure. ’cause I didn’t think my body could handle it. My body handled it great. Brett: That’s awesome. That’s Jeff: People like having a big guy in the, you know, along the edge of the pit that they can bang into. [00:40:00] Anyway, so that’s been really delightful. And I’m, and I’m just now I’m just all about going to, going to shows. great. Brett: We should do a sponsor break. Jeff: Oh yeah. Brett: Oh yeah. Jeff: Yeah. We should, I’m gonna stall Brett: this week, despite all of our health concerns, scheduling issues, we showed up anyway because I. Sponsor Break: Insta360 Jeff: because today’s episode is sponsored by Insta 360, a leader in 360 degree action camera technology. You don’t wanna be a follower. Field, you gotta be a leader. So their latest 360 degree camera, it’s crazy that that kind of thing exists. Do you remember, like, when they first came out, they were, they must have been like the, the price of an F 16. Brett: Sure. Yeah. Jeff: looked like, so, I mean they looked like the Google cars, Brett: And, and the only people who seemed to have them were the reviewers that they sent free ones to. Jeff: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s good. Yeah, that’s true. So their latest 360 [00:41:00] degree camera, it’s called the Insta 360 X five, launched April 22nd. It shoots full 360 degree videos and incredible eight K three oh resolution. That is such good resolution. I don’t know what it means. Brett: second, 30 frames per second. Jeff: So, see, we gotta fix that in the script. I’ll tell you what, not that I’m reading from a script, I’m talking from my heart here. Let’s be clear. Uh, so eight K resolution, 30 frames per second. That’s good stuff. And since it films in all directions at once, which is bizarre and terrifying, you don’t even need to aim the camera obviously. You just hit record. You live in the moment and you choose any angle you want in the edit. With Insta three Sixty’s mobile app, it’s easy, smooth, packed with AI tools, what isn’t these days. Uh, for a faster workflow, you can even get these impossible drone like third person shots. Using the invisible selfie stick that Christina Warren has told us is pretty cool. It [00:42:00] disappears from the final video. Which is super weird and cool and probably some crazy ass algorithm and cheers to whatever team had to work on that over there. Insta 360. Um, so from immersive POVs to unique third person shots, X five is every camera you’ll need in one. It’s an efficient triple AI chip, which means seriously smooth performance, plus huge sensors and a dedicated low light shooting mode. They deliver unmatched detail and quality day and night. The X five also features Insta three sixty’s toughest ever lenses, which are completely replaceable. So you can risk the shot with confidence. So to bag a free 114 centimeter, that’s really funny. Do I have to talk? Hold on. I’m gonna open up, um, I’m gonna do another sponsor. Brett: that in Inches Jeff: I’m gonna open up, uh, what is my, um, what is my launcher called right now? Brett: Oh, quick, uh, what do you use? Launch Bar Alfred Jeff: Starts with an R. Brett: [00:43:00] Raycast. Jeff: Ray casts. Okay. 115 centimeter. That’s 40. Everybody listen to me now. That’s 44.8 8 1 8 8 9 7 6 3 8 inches. Okay? That is a serious selfie stick. It’s worth 24 99. By that I mean $24 and 99 cents. I don’t have to convert that, do I with your Insta 360 x five standard package per purchase. Brett: what is that? In Euros. Jeff: um, please hold h how, how tolerant of a sponsor is this, Brett? Brett: Oh, we’re gonna, I think they love us. I think we’re good. Jeff: Okay, great. I don’t know how much it is in euros. Isn’t it usually fairly close? I, let’s just say it’s fairly close. We’re America though. We don’t need to worry about really anything internally or externally. Okay. So to bag of free 114 centimeter invisible selfie stick worth 24 99 with your Insta 360 X five standard package purchase. Head to store dot insta. 360. The numbers three six [00:44:00] zero.com. So that’s store dot insta three six zero.com and use the promo code Overtired. It’s available for the first 30 standard package purchases only. Hurry up 360 camera. Buy-in people. For more information, please be sure to check out the links in our show notes. Brett: Well done, I think. I think they’re gonna love that. Read. Who wouldn’t love that read? Jeff: I mean, look, do you want, do you want me to bring myself to this read or not? That’s the question. Brett: I did. I did specifically ask you to do this read, so Jeff: Yeah. Brett: I was, that’s what I was looking for was the Jeff treatment. Jeff: Yeah, I think I killed it. Brett: think you did. Jeff: I think I deserve one of these. 1 1 4 CM Invisible selfie sticks worth 24 99. Brett: It doesn’t do much good without the camera. Jeff: Yeah, that’s true. And I just remembered they’re a sponsor, so they are giving us money either way. Brett: They are, they’re giving [00:45:00] us money, but not enough to afford one of their cameras. Jeff: Right. And if this, and if this were early two thousands podcasting, we’d have one of these cameras in our pocket right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not saying Insta 360, that you ought to do that, but I’m not saying we wouldn’t make good use of it. Brett: Yeah. Yeah. They have my address. They asked for my address. They Jeff: Lemme ask for your address. Yeah, yeah. Selfie stick shows up. You just went, your sound just went away. Unless you’re just, um, stretching your lips. Everybody. I can’t hear Brett right now, but we’re not gonna edit this out. I’m gonna describe Brett. Okay. Brett’s got some clear frame frame glasses on right now. He seems a little frustrated. He’s, uh. He’s got headphones with like kind of blue ear things. He’s got a nice blurred background. He’s kinda got a YouTuber background. Oh, he just [00:46:00] left. Listen, I’m glad we’re here together right now because frankly I’ve been waiting for a chance to get you alone for some time. I want to talk about Insta 360. Okay, fine. We’re gonna have to edit this. This is getting a little ridiculous. I feel very self-conscious, but you look great. I think you look great. I think, uh, it looks like you’re having a nice time. I hope you’re having a nice time. Um, you know, call me sometime. Uh, you can text me too. I’m not good at texting if you call. Brett: Hey. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brett: my God. I don’t know what’s up. Jeff: Well, Brett: I’m back. This is gonna take some editing. Huh? Jeff: you’re gonna enjoy, you’re gonna enjoy the Brett: A good were were you a good DJ While I was Jeff: I wasn’t that good. No, but I did play everybody. Do you know about the five second? It’s actually a two second Napalm death song. Brett: Um, this sounds familiar, but my brain is skipping to wiener. Wiener schnitzel by the [00:47:00] descendants. Jeff: Oh, it’s different. Listen, here it is. Ready? It’s called You Suffer. That’s it. Brett: Wow. That Jeff: then, and then I did my impression of the weaker then. So you wanna hear that? Brett: Sure. Jeff: Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4. Talk just a minute about Vibe coding. But yeah, edit it how you want. Please edit all that shit out that I did. ’cause I was just entertaining myself. Brett: see now, like this was gonna be a hit it and forget it. Kinda. Jeff: was, especially with that sponsor read I did. We were looking at no edits. Brett: Yeah, it was gonna be amazing. And we’re supposed to have this out same day, and now I’m worried. But anyway, Jeff: Well, Brett, I know I happen to know that for Gude, you have like a really big thing and I had just a question for you that may or may not be fruitful. Um, before we do Brett: I, I am curious what you have on your mind. Jeff: and at some point I, when we have, when we have time, again, [00:48:00] I, I wanna, I wanna talk to you on this podcast about questions that come up for me as I create several of my dream apps just for my local use using Bolt new all, just almost all text reference stuff. Literally all of them, basically Brett Terpstra apps that don’t exist can’t be scaled. But it, it’s so interesting because it’s like, it’s the closest I am not a developer, but being able to work through. We’ve talked about this already and, and end up with a, a little app I can use that I’ve always wanted something like this is fucking incredible. But it raises all these questions that I want to ask you anyway. But I’m actually curious because you have marked coming out and you’ve been working hard and you’ve been able to work in your own, completely in your own environment ’cause you’re not working for a major corporation. What does your, how does your sort of development, uh, environment differ now from [00:49:00] say, when you were building marked or last working unmarked and, and were a free, a free man? Brett: So, so like cutting out like the oracle years. And so I guess the biggest difference is now that I have cursor Jeff: Hmm. Brett: and I don’t rely on cursor for most of my coding, but when I hit a wall and Google isn’t giving me the answers I need. Cursor often can, and it means that instead of spending a day pulling my hair out, trying to get one little thing to work, I can have cursor write me a couple new classes, add some methods, and then I can work those in and I can figure out how, how things should have worked. Um, cursor is often wrong. Um, right now I’m trying [00:50:00] to debug an issue where the first time you try to open a markdown file in Mark, if you drag it onto the icon or you use the open recent menu the very first time, nothing happens. Like the app doesn’t activate no, no delegate methods are called. It just nothing happens. Um, but the second time, everything is fine and the first time works. If it’s a Scrivener file. Not a Doc X file or any of the other formats that can open other than markdown, Jeff: Yeah. Brett: but if it’s a Scrivener file, it works. So I’ve been going back and forth with Cursor, and Cursor has been infinitely infuriating, just trying the same things over and over. And I’ll be like, no, we already tried this. This doesn’t work. This is why. And it’s like, oh yeah, sorry for my mistake. Let’s try this and it’ll be the same fucking thing Jeff: Yeah, yeah, Brett: And like, it’s not a solution. [00:51:00] But in general, my current rate of productivity owes a lot to, um, ai, specifically to like Claude sonnet, uh, models. And, and that has, that has changed the game a lot. Jeff: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And the Cloud sonnet models also Power Bolt. And are just fantastic. Brett: Yeah, I’m considering trying some different models to see if this particular bug can be answered. But did I tell you Mark can export perfectly, uh, like a hundred percent valid, a hundred percent accessible UB files now, Jeff: Amazing. You did not tell me that that was not in the last, uh, episode’s update. Brett: which means because Mark can open Doc x Scrivener and markdown, uh, and can handle lean pub and GitBook formats, you [00:52:00] can write, uh, an entire book in whatever editor you choose, and Mark can serve as your final eub conversion with styling and footnotes and document structure and table of contents and all of that. Jeff: That’s amazing. Brett: it’s so good. Jeff: You know, it’s funny talking about your struggles with Cursor and how it, you know, continually thinks it got. Something right this time and it didn’t Brett: It always, it always starts it with, oh, I see the Jeff: Yeah. Oh, I see the problem. Yeah, exactly. Which is a little bit like what a life of therapy is like, or like, oh, I see the problem, what I meant to do was this. No, that’s not it. Oh, I see. The problem. Uh, it’s funny because like, as someone who, who has like no skills in this area and for, and really depended on stack overflow for really basic stuff like trying to write a bash of script, right? Um, the hair pulling of that is not eliminated, right? Like, although it, it, it puts you into a, a place in my opinion, where it’s hair pulling plus critical [00:53:00] thinking. And so you’re actually needed a little bit more than, than I’m, I feel like I’m needed more in the process than I did when I was, you know, wrestling with Stack overflow answers. And I think that’s something that’s, that’s missed or not intuitive by people, um, is that there’s still a a, an incredible amount of critical thinking that has to happen in order to figure out, yeah. Brett: there are all these times I’ll ask it to do something and I will watch the diffs that it creates as it edits my code and I’ll be like, wait, so here’s, here’s what I just saw you do, and that is absolutely not what I want. And it’ll be like, oh my gosh, I apologize for the aggressive edit. Let me try again with a more focused edit. Jeff: I’ve, I’ve had an experience and there’s a term that I first heard from. Merlin, and I’m not sure if it was Merlin’s term, but the idea of a cursed thread where sometimes you’re so deep into a thread that you [00:54:00] just, there’s no hope. You’re not gonna extract yourself from it. And I’ve had experiences with bolts, so the like, fundamentally what I’m ever doing is just looking, I’m creating things that help me navigate text basically. Right. But I also usually want to be able to pull from and write to some markdown file or a CSV or something like that. Right. So my, well, the first thing that I, that I built, I needed it once. I was running it locally. I wanted it, I was running the browser. I wanted it to be able to write to this file that it was reading from. And it’s like, I’m sorry, browsers cannot write to to file. Which is like in a certain sense true. Right? But I could not get it to realize the thing that it must certainly know, which is we can do this buddy. Right. It took creating a whole nother app. For it to, for it to be like, oh, you know what I can do, I can create like a little node server here and whatever, but the other one would not get there. And so then I went back to that one. I’m like, you know what you could do? And so that kind of stuff, you just get into a cursed thread where you’re like, we’re never gonna get out of this. Also like a lifetime of therapy [00:55:00] sometimes. Brett: I mean, ultimately they’re very stupid, Jeff: Yeah. But it is fun and amazing and that’s cool that it’s, I like hearing you talk about it from your perspective as like an experienced developer. It’s not like you’re taking anyone’s job. Brett: right? Yeah. Jeff: Awesome. Well that’s cool. I’m very excited to talk about Mark that length once we’ve had a chance to see it and I can play with it and stuff. Um, so Brett: I am considering doing a beta, like the changes are so extensive. It feels like before I release the new version, I should do a beta. Jeff: what’s a co-host gotta do to get on a beta list? Brett: I’m thinking about just making it a public test flight beta, Jeff: Yeah. Brett: um, that I can just get a bunch of people testing all of the new features. I can run it for just like two weeks. Um, and Jeff: Have you done it as a public test flight beta before? Brett: I have done it as a. Public beta before, way [00:56:00] back in like Mark 2.2 era, which was like six years ago. Um, and I did it outside of test flight. Um, I like the idea of doing it through test flight just because it so easy to expire everyone’s beta with the click of a button and then just go on to sell it as a paid app. Um, ’cause otherwise I have to hard code in dates and ex expiration functions and kill switches and it’s a pain in the butt. But test flight I hope will make it easy. So I will post on Brett turf.com when that, if, if, and when that is available. And I will send you a special text message. Jeff? Jeff: Yes, yes, yes. That’s why I’ve been doing this for the last two and a half years. I’ve been waiting for this moment. I get nothing, Brett: And you’ll be able to turn your Microsoft [00:57:00] Word files into EPUBs, Jeff: which the whole Microsoft thing and this new mark is extremely exciting. Not because I would on my own care at all, but because I have to work with Brett: Nobody, nobody chooses to work in Word, but the fact is, so many of us have to, and if I can provide tools that make that more bearable, Jeff: Amazing. Brett: I’m all in. Jeff: Amazing. Yeah. Alright, so we’re gonna do GrAPPtitude. Brett has like a, Brett has a whole universe, uh, he wants to introduce into GrAPPtitude here. And so I’m just gonna like, say, take it away, Brett. App Recommendations Brett: Okay. So I’ve talked about at least one of these apps from this developer before. Uh, but there is a developer called Soma Zone, SOMA dash Zone, and they, they have four primary apps. Um. Actually in all of this rebooting, I closed my browser, but they are [00:58:00] go to file and ammonite and backup loop and launch control. And the main pick I had today was Ammonite, which is a uh, tag base. So I do a lot of file tagging. Anyone who’s known me for the last 10 years knows that I love tagging files and my, like most of my file organization is built around tags and there are only two apps that I know of that create like a good navigable tag cloud of all of your file tags. And that is leap and. Uh, Amite and Amite is kind of my current choice because it also works really well with Devon Think, which is another favorite of mine. Jeff: Hmm. No. Is it a coincidence that they’re both these seashell [00:59:00] things as Brett: what Leap and Amite? Jeff: No. Amite and Devon think. Brett: Oh, that could, that honestly don’t know if that’s a coincidence, but it may have originally been developed as a specifically Devon think companion. Um, it also works really well with obsidian. Um, but the, the general idea is it gives you a tag cloud with like your most commonly used tags, a little bit larger, and you can kind of drill down and you can set date ranges and, uh, a couple other parameters and just display files based on their tags. And, uh, it allows for nested tags, so. Um, they originally allowed for, you could type publisher, left angle bracket O’Reilly, and it would create a publisher tag and then a SubT tag of O’Reilly. [01:00:00] And that was great. But the way I’ve always tagged SubT tags is with colons. And in a recent blog post, which I’ll link in the show notes, show notes about my Mac file, finding gems, um, I mentioned it would be so great if I could change the separator from the left angle bracket or Yeah. Right angle brackets, I’m sorry. Right, right angle bracket to a colon. And, uh, about three weeks later, the developer emailed me and he is like, that’s a great idea. So as of as of yesterday, um, Amite now allows configurable separators between, um, tags, uh, like nested tags in. So you can create, it’s one long tag, but you include separators in it, and that creates a hierarchy of tags. But so amite aside, uh, [01:01:00] find any file, not find any file. Got to file is like a fantastically fast way to navigate files that you kind of already know the name of. And you just wanna like, rapidly search through huge stacks of files to find a file all from like a little popup quicksilver type of interface. Backup loop is hands down, the best way to work with time machine backups. If you’ve ever used the time machine interface through Finder, you know, it’s. A bear, like it takes forever to load. And then you have to like be like, Nope, I had to go back one revision. And then you wait another five minutes. And to backup loop gives you like all the revisions all at once, lets you navigate in, uh, like, uh, kind of, uh, hierarchical finder way of, uh, seeing all your files. It [01:02:00] is, it is, it’s, it’s tits. Do people still say tits? It’s Jeff: Someone just used that word in conversation with me yesterday, and not in that context, but let’s just say that today and yesterday. People still say it. Brett: And then finally, um, launch control is, so what’s the lingen? If you’ve ever used Lingen, uh, you know that it got a little weird with like version three and. It’s good. It’s a good app. It’s worth some money, but Launch Control gives you finite control over launch D jobs, which are kind of Max equivalent Toron, um, but way more powerful than Kron. And if you wanna run tasks at intervals at on events, uh, with any kind of arguments, [01:03:00] uh, standard out, standard, standard air, standard out output, like all of these configurable options, launch Control gives you a EY for managing all of it. And I swear by it, Jeff: Awesome. Brett: all of this is from Soone. So if you’re not familiar with the developer, you should check them out. Jeff: Awesome. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Cool. Um, mine is kind of a funny thing ’cause I, you know, Brett, you’ve done this feature on your website forever called web excursions, and as I understand it, it is generated, is it still generated through your Pinboard account or are you, are you fully Brett: through a, um, link LinkedIn. I switched from Pinboard to LinkedIn. Uh, but it uses the same script just with the LinkedIn API. Jeff: So it’s now we call ’em woke web excursions now. Brett: Sure. Jeff: [01:04:00] Okay. Um, and, and when you’ve bookmarked something, you write a little something. When you get so many, you’ve got a fucking whole pipeline where all of a sudden there’s web excursions. And, and what I have loved about these since way before I knew you, is they are a great sort of like, look at what Brett’s brain is drawn to and also just like an amazing, uh, there are so many things that I’ve learned about so many apps and whatever else because of your web excursions. The recent ones have been fantastic, but I’m gonna talk about something that’s not an app at all that I didn’t know existed, which is the complete collection of MTV Head Bangers Ball, um, which you, you linked to and, and from what I could tell looking at it, it is, what that means is it is the videos played in the order they were played over the years. I think, um, it does not involve Ricky Rackman, the host, um, at all, who was a really important part of my life. But it’s amazing because I just, just went in and scrolled again, which is delightful. You start in the very early days, you’ve got balls to the wall. The great, not the, let’s just say it’s a ballad by the band, except [01:05:00] you’ve got Wasps song, I Don’t Need No Doctor, right? Amazing Rock of Ages by Def Leppard, right? And you can, you can follow it all the way to the nineties, where now all of a sudden you’ve got like outshine by Sound Garden. An ill-advised inclusive, including uh, uh, uh, even flow by Pearl Jam. I think that was when everybody was trying to figure out what the hell do we do with this moment where Pearl Jam has overtaken hair metal while still having hair. Um, and uh, and it’s amazing. It’s amazing to look through all these videos. Oh my god. I watched probably most of the broadcast of Headbangers Ball on MTV, which if you don’t know, was the late night heavy metal, uh, video show on maybe Friday, Saturdays. I can’t remember. There was like 120 minutes for the cool kids, for like your older siblings that was like the, you know, all the really cool college rock. And then for the dip shits like me who were trying to grow my mullet into a beautiful, just straight up, you know, the hair’s all the same length. You had head bangers, ball, Brett: [01:06:00] Yeah. Jeff: loved it. Brett: what I discovered in going through that was, uh. I rediscovered a love of typo negative Jeff: Oh, nice. Brett: I never, I never remembered black number one being on head banger’s ball. Um, but like that era of Typo negative was typo Negative was a weird band, man. They came out of, what was their, it was Crow Magnus, I think Jeff: think Brett: before, before they were typo negative. And they went from like, kind of thrash punk to like eventually like Vampire goth metal and, and Peter Steele, tragic death and all that. And sure, like some of their lyrics were straight up like neo-Nazi, which was weird. ’cause Peel, peel, Peter Steele was Jewish and like, he took a [01:07:00] lot of offense when people started calling him a Nazi. And I can’t defend. Their lyrical content for some of their work, but as a band, as a sound typo negative was like they led nothing sounded like typo negative when Typo negative sounded like typo negative. Jeff: actually don’t think I’ve ever heard. I mean, I know who they are, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard them. Brett: Um, yeah. I will send you a few, a few specific tracks to listen to, to give you a feel for. They did an album or is that a plane? You have a Jeff: Yeah. Sorry. I have an airport nearby everybody, Brett: they didn’t, um, origin of the Feces that they wanted to make it, it purported to be a live album, but it was actually a studio album that they added a bunch of crowd noise into and like they added people booing and like it sounded, if you listen to the album, it sounded like a [01:08:00] really shitty. show in a small bar. Like it was, it, like I listened to it and I was like, oh man, these guys had a really rough night in like Bumfuck, Iowa and Jeff: Hey, I’m from Iowa. There’s no such fucking town. You’re thinking of Wisconsin Brett: Sure, sure, sure. Um, but like, but it was all, it was all engineered to be that way and like it was all, it was mostly like the first album came out as typo negative, and Peter Steele immediately decided he didn’t like it and he wanted to redo it, and they basically put out the same album again. But rerecorded with like, uh, with like a, with like a new shtick and uh, like they were, they’re kind of a fascinating band, but like he’s got, he’s, he’s this, the lead singer, Peter Steele [01:09:00] plays bass and he was seen in multiple videos playing a double base, like a standup base as an electric base, like holding it. ’cause he’s seven feet tall and he’s just like playing and he’s got this deep voice that just appealed to your typical vampire, obsessed, gothic girl. So like all the girls loved Typo negative. Not all the girls a very specific type of girl loved typo negative. But yeah, I found them fascinating and, and scary. Like in the way that the first time, like when you’re a kid and you first hear heavy metal and it’s scary, but also like, yes, this is it. Like, like typo negative had that effect on me. Jeff: Yes. I love it. That’s awesome. Um, well, while we’re recommending from Head Banger’s Ball, [01:10:00] um, I just wanna say, and I, I’ve already put a link in the, in the show note, um, show notes, but this, there was this kind of, kind of hair metal band that kind of, it was a hair metal band called The Bullet Boys. Um, and, uh, I went to see him at the Mirage Club here, that’s now a bakery, but it’s a good hair metal club here. Um, and, uh, they did a cover of Tom White’s. Hang on. St. Christopher, stay with me. Should not be good. Really, really good. And I just wanna, I just wanna put that out there. Um, and then the last thing I want to ask about here is a copy edit question, head bangers Ball, no apostrophe when in, in my thinking, there should be an apostrophe, but I don’t know if it should be before or after the s We’ll let the listeners, Brett: That’s a really good question. There should be an apostrophe. I would assume it’s after the S. Jeff: I think after the Yes, that’s absolutely my vote. And yet there’s none at all. And I don’t know what the history is probably got, maybe if I do my oral history of Headbangers Ball, which [01:11:00] probably has already been done, but is my dream, uh, I could, I could do that. Um, that sounds, sounds good. I’ll work on that between now and the next episode. Show Wrap-up Brett: All right. Well, thanks Jeff. Jeff: Yeah, it was a pleasure talking to you. Brett: That didn’t get nearly as nerdy as I thought it Jeff: well, we ran out of time because I ended up talking to myself for a Brett: Well, and yeah, I just, I disappeared. I left you on your own. I’m sorry about Jeff: No, that’s fine. I’ve got, I’ll leave some of my nerd questions and, and I will ask you to leave in just minimal, uh, content of me speaking alone to the listeners. Um, thank you. Just minimal. Brett: All right. I love you. Get some Jeff: Uh, love you back. Get a sleep, brother.

In this OG episode of Overtired, Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra navigate through sleep habits, medication discussions, and mental health struggles. They reminisce about theatrical experiences with Magic Mike, the allure of cooking shows, and gardening adventures. Brett's journey into movie recommendation tools and Christina's nostalgia over MTV highlight a fun and chaotic discussion. Plus, they reflect on the legacy of computing pioneer Bill Atkinson. Tune in for a blend of tech tips, personal anecdotes, and community app brainstorming.

In this episode, Brett reunites with Christina and Jeff after a few weeks' break. Jeff talks about boundless curiosity and Christina shares her excitement over Taylor Swift reclaiming her masters. Brett details his tiring job search post-Oracle and explores new avenues as an independent developer while updating the team on the latest features of his app 'Marked'. The conversation covers 'cheesy' movies, health insurance options, and sports fandoms. You know, the conversations of three ADHD podcasters.

Jeff Guntzel and Christina Warren, along with guest Bryan Guffey, dive deep into a capella groups, vibe coding, and AI tools. Mental health journeys and new therapies, plus tech tips, including the use of granola and the Limitless pendant for recording conversations. This is what happens when Brett's not around.

In a hilariously ADHD (or just friendly chat) episode of Overtired, Christina wants everyone to know she’s definitely not an anarchist, while Brett and Jeff dive deep into the world of tech and political activism. Amid laughs and nostalgia, they discuss everything from the pitfalls of memory at work, lock boxes for protests, and the anarchist vs. black bloc debate, all while petting cats and reflecting on TV shows that keep them sane. Tune in for tech tips on carabiner and Kali Linux, and find out why Jeff treasures his time in the car with his sons. It’s chaotic, heartfelt, and genuinely overtired. Sponsor Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired! Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Reunion 00:30 Memory Lapses and Work Challenges 01:56 Utility Guy Story 03:42 Flipper Zero and Productivity Tools 04:57 ADHD Conversations and Podcast Dynamics 07:32 Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Turn 30:29 Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba 32:14 Mental Health Corner: Jeff’s Turn 37:45 News Consumption and Mental Health 43:20 Finding Meaningful Ways to Help 46:53 Personal Protest Experiences 47:04 Transition from Journalism 49:37 Protest Dynamics and Personal Involvement 53:27 Debate on Protest Tactics 01:00:51 Reflections on Anarchism and Activism 01:08:05 TV Shows and Entertainment 01:17:50 grAPPtitude Show Links Ultimate List of Lorem Ipsum Generators Text Blaze Child Jeff interviews Noam Chomsky in the WTO protest era Kali Linux Karabiner Elements Dia Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Undiagnosed Dialog Introduction and Reunion [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Christina: Well, hello again. You’re listening to Overtired and the three of us are back. I’m Christina Warren and I’m joined. Yay. By all three of us, uh, or by my other two co-hosts, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns. Guntzel. Hey guys. [00:00:17] Jeff: Hello. [00:00:18] Brett: episodes in a row have we had? Three of us. Is it just two? [00:00:22] Christina: I think this is [00:00:22] Brett: like a bunch, [00:00:24] Christina: I think this is just two. [00:00:26] Jeff: Not enough [00:00:27] Brett: have such, I have such a short memory. Memory Lapses and Work Challenges [00:00:30] Brett: Like as far as I’m concerned, we’ve never missed an episode with all three of us. Like I, I don’t wanna talk too much about work, but that’s bitten me at work. The fact that I don’t remember, like last week, [00:00:43] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I have to, like, I, I, I tend to have a good memory, but sometimes I’ll forget certain things. And so in that regard, I have to like, um. Like write things down, like keep like a running list of like, these are things you need to do, these are things you [00:01:00] have done. Like these are things you didn’t get to do. [00:01:02] Christina: Whatever. [00:01:03] Brett: This is not my gratitude pick, but I’ve started making liberal use of timing the app. Um, ’cause it tracks like what document I have open for how long. And I can, like, I can just, I can drag a whole bunch of different, uh, stuff like, uh, documents, websites, et cetera, into one task. Um, because I am currently in a position where I have to report my, my workday to people and, um, so I can, I can easily scrap together, uh, a daily report and then I, it pops up and asked me what I was doing when I was away from my computer so I can write like, surprise visit from the utilities company that took half an hour. [00:01:55] Brett: Um. Utility Guy Story [00:01:56] Brett: Dude showed up at my house, just pulled into the [00:02:00] driveway and started banging on shit. And I walked out and I was like, Hey, what’s up? And he said that the meter reader had reported tight wires. [00:02:15] Jeff: That sounds like an amazing code in like the Cold War. Cold War, the meter reader has recorded tight wires. Got it. I’ll meet you at the place [00:02:25] Brett: So he was, he was pulling on shit, banging shit. And, [00:02:30] Jeff: to loosen the wires. [00:02:31] Brett: and ultimately he said, and I quote, I’m not gonna fuck with it. Um, [00:02:37] Jeff: just, you just bang on it for a. [00:02:40] Brett: well, he was like seeing like, are these wires tight? Um, and like I, my, my, uh, power comes in. I have like a rooftop, not an antenna, but like a post. That it’s all overhead, uh, power that comes in from the [00:03:00] cables on the street into the top of my house and down in, and that mast, I guess we would call it, um, has started to lean. [00:03:08] Brett: It’s at about a 15 degree angle and it is not currently pulling up any roofing tiles. Um, but he said, you should probably keep an eye on that. And I said, oh, it’s been in that angle since I moved in, so I never gave it a second thought. But yeah, that’s not a great sign. [00:03:29] Jeff: That’s not a great sign. [00:03:30] Christina: No, not at all. Not at all. I just shared this thing in our chat. Um, ma made me think of this not so much about, you know, like the, uh, utility guy, like banging on your door and just being like random and like, I’m just checking stuff out and you’re like, what the fuck? Flipper Zero and Productivity Tools [00:03:42] Christina: Um, but, but in terms of keeping track of time and like busy things, there’s, uh, so you guys are familiar with Flipper Zero, right? [00:03:49] Jeff: Well, what’s funny yes. Is you, you sent this, I looked at it, I’m like, it looks like a flipper. And then saw that it was a flipper device. [00:03:54] Christina: Yeah, so, so, so, so the flip, [00:03:56] Brett: this before. [00:03:57] Christina: So the Flipper Zero people just launched like [00:04:00] two days ago, like this new thing called, um, a busy bar. And, and it’s a little expensive, um, but it’s, you know, fully open and hackable and whatnot, so that’s pretty cool. Um, but it’s basically, it’s, it’s like, um, it’s, they’re calling it like a, a productivity multi-tool with like an LED pixel display. [00:04:18] Christina: And so it can integrate with software both on the desktop where that you write for it. And it includes like an offline API and stuff, JavaScript and Python, so that you can, it can be like an on air sign, um, and, and do shit like that. So like, if you’re recording a podcast, you could have it like outside your office and it would show like, Hey, I’m like. [00:04:33] Christina: Recording, but you can also have like, has like a button on it that you can like press and start and pause to have like a, a pdo, you know, type of thing. But it can also, I guess, probably work with other types of tools where you’re customizing things so you could like, you know, show like how much time you have left of a task or whatever. [00:04:50] Christina: I don’t necessarily know if this would be useful for you, Brett, but I saw this the other day [00:04:54] Brett: it’s a fun toy. [00:04:55] Christina: it’s a fun toy. Yeah. ADHD Conversations and Podcast Dynamics [00:04:57] Brett: For, for the listeners, I [00:05:00] will, um, acknowledge that our topic list this week has zero items on it. We all showed up [00:05:07] Jeff: I don’t think people need to know that it’s not it. [00:05:09] Brett: I, I feel like, I feel like it’s, I feel like it’s fair warning that this is gonna be just an a DHD conversation with zero limitations, zero guidance. We’re just gonna, we’re, we’re gone with the flow. [00:05:23] Jeff: I’m gonna argue with calling in an A DHD conversation ’cause I think it’s just gonna be a chat between friends. [00:05:28] Christina: Yeah, I think so. [00:05:30] Jeff: We don’t have to, we don’t have to diagnose [00:05:32] Brett: it’s like [00:05:33] Christina: I was [00:05:33] Brett: it’s not a gay wedding, it’s just a wedding. [00:05:36] Christina: well, exactly, exactly, because like every conversation with like the three of us, it’s gonna be an a DH ADHD conversation. You should just know that going in. So this is just a convo amongst friends. Like, I don’t feel like we need to, again, like to, to, to Jeff’s point, we don’t need to diagnose this. [00:05:49] Christina: We don’t need to like pathologize it like just a fucking convo. Um. [00:05:54] Jeff: podcast. It will be bullshitting. Welcome to [00:05:56] Brett: So here’s, here’s what makes an A DHD [00:06:00] conversation to me is my partner is autistic and is all about deep dives. Um, they like to, if a topic comes up that they’re interested in, they wanna drill down on it and they want to, like, they could talk about the same thing for the length of the party, like all the way through. [00:06:22] Brett: And for me as an A DHD person, I’m much more surface level. Like I wanna, like a topic reminds me of another topic, reminds me of a personal experience, reminds me of something I wanted to tell somebody. And like I just kind of skim along the surface. And it’s not to say I don’t enjoy like depth to things, but my mode of conversation is much more skimming and I guarantee you. [00:06:52] Brett: That unless Christina goes down a K hole for some reason, which could happen, um, UN unless that [00:07:00] happens, we’re just gonna jump around. It’s gonna be a bunch of topics and to me that’s an A DHD conversation versus maybe a normal or autistic conversation. [00:07:11] Jeff: It’s, it’s such a limited spectrum of options. Like I, I am just gonna say that I am gonna sit in my, I like to talk about a lot of things and whether I have a diagnosis or not, that’s just me talking about a lot of things. But it’s fine. It’s fine, it’s fine. Let’s do it. [00:07:27] Christina: have interest. It’s fine. Um, [00:07:29] Jeff: call this, let’s have it. [00:07:30] Christina: yep. All right. Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Turn [00:07:32] Christina: Let’s start with, uh, with, with Mental Health Corner. Who wants to go first? [00:07:35] Jeff: Hmm. Rock, paper, scissors. [00:07:38] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:07:38] Brett: I can kick it off. [00:07:39] Christina: All right. Kick us off Brett. [00:07:40] Brett: Overall life is really hard right now. Um, I have found solace in, um, so I’ve been writing a, uh, Lauren Ipsum generator that is easily, um, adapted [00:08:00] to different styles. [00:08:02] Brett: Like there used to be like a bacon lipson generator and a hip sum, uh, like a hipster lips sum generator. [00:08:10] Jeff: someone that made one outta Metallica lyrics. [00:08:13] Brett: can do that. I just made a 19 84 1 this morning. Um, it’s super [00:08:19] Jeff: outta transcripts of this podcast. [00:08:21] Christina: Oh my [00:08:21] Brett: you go. [00:08:22] Christina: I was gonna say, I was like, I was, I was like, I’m gonna make a tailor of some gen. I’m sure. I’m sure someone already has, but Yeah, I should, yeah. [00:08:28] Brett: Yeah, like I, I’ve been using chat GPT, I’m, I’m just like, give me 100 plural nouns related to this topic and then like pacing them into the configuration files. And it’s a, it’s a pretty damn good Lauren MSO generator. I’m publishing it as a gem, um, um, that can be used as a library, but also comes with a binary and I’m incorporating it into my MD Lipsom project that outputs [00:09:00] markdown Laura sso. [00:09:01] Brett: Um, but I have found solace in that. That’s like, I wake up at between two and four in the morning and I code on that and it’s like the only comfortable part of my day while I’m coding that I can forget about. Um, I can forget about the last email from my manager, and it is, it’s all I have right now. [00:09:32] Jeff: That’s awesome. You caused me to look up, uh, a list of Lauren Ipsum, uh, generators, and I’d like to just, I’d like to just share a few, if that, if that’s, uh, okay. We’ve got the, um, Obama Ipsum, which, which fills out a paragraph as that is the true genius of America, A faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles. [00:09:52] Jeff: Okay, that’s one. We’ve got a, uh, busi as in Gary Busi, [00:09:56] Christina: in Gary. [00:09:57] Jeff: uh, which is [00:10:00] Busi Ipso. Ah, met. Have you urinated, have you drained your bladder? Are you free? Because if you haven’t, it will only come out later. I’m giving you some information that your bodily fluids may penetrate your clothing fibers without warning. [00:10:10] Jeff: That’s that [00:10:10] Brett: that’s very thematic. [00:10:13] Jeff: Let’s, uh, let’s pick, let’s just pick one more please. Hold on, please. Hold on. Um, let’s see. We got Sagan, uh, we got Heisenberg. Um, we’ve got, uh, tuna journo. Okay. Anyway, you get it. It’s a lot of fun. Uh, I’ll put this list in the, [00:10:30] Brett: So, yeah, and I made this, I made this tool that I’m making, you can add user dictionaries to it. So anything that you can compile, you have to each, there, there are a bunch of text files and each one is a part of speech. You get your articles, you get your, uh, verbs, your plural verbs, your singular verbs, et cetera. [00:10:55] Brett: And, um, and you just, you fill in all of those [00:11:00] files and you’ve created a dictionary that then you can call by its directory name and. This is outside of the GEM Configuration directory, so it’s completely static for the user [00:11:14] Jeff: Can I. [00:11:15] Brett: anyone who makes a good, a good one. I’ll add to the default repo [00:11:21] Jeff: So the question is what makes, uh, an app cross the line into being a Brett turp app? And the answer is, it starts with the sentence I made it so you can add your own blank. [00:11:33] Brett: that is, that is a principle I learned from TechMate up until I switched to Mac and started using TechMate. I had never. Really experienced the idea of extensibility. I had used Home Seer and I had developed like visual basic scripts for home automation, and that was, that was technically a extensibility, but this idea that you could [00:12:00] actually change the way an app functions and add your own features to an app blew me away. [00:12:06] Brett: Um, like a ogar became my hero because like his whole focus was extensibility. It was the giving power to his, admittedly very technical user base. But [00:12:21] Christina: Right. [00:12:22] Brett: I just got a review on set about basically how it was too complicated to configure, marked and set up. Set only allows a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Um, so it, it was a thumbs down. [00:12:40] Brett: Um, and he, dude, in this review, he listed at least four bugs that I wish he had reported through the bug tracker, but they were admittedly real bugs, so I’m not mad at him. [00:12:56] Christina: Well, no, I mean, and honestly, I’m sorry. We can’t [00:13:00] expect users to go through official bug reporting channels. Like, unless you make it super fucking easy. Like where people know, like as part of onboarding where a bug [00:13:08] Brett: when you’re on Set App or the Mac App store, it just, it isn’t easy [00:13:13] Christina: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. And, and frankly, like book reporting is a hard problem to solve and like you, and you [00:13:19] Brett: If you go to [00:13:20] Christina: you can. [00:13:21] Brett: if you go to the help menu and Mark, there’s a submit a, uh, submit an issue item that will take you directly to the ticket site. But yeah, that’s not obvious to your average end user, so yeah, I get it. The most common review I get on Set App is, um, when I create a new file, it’s just a blank page and I can’t type into it, even though the Descript is very clearly, clearly this is a previewer, not an editor, [00:13:56] Christina: Right, right. Well, but the [00:13:58] Brett: in the title [00:14:00] of [00:14:00] Christina: no, and, and, and I, and, and you’re not wrong, but you know, people don’t read. It might have to be one of those things that, like, even as a popup, like if you’re getting enough of that, even on the setup version where you can say, you know, note [00:14:13] Brett: Yeah, there’s a whole splash intro screen. There’s a, there’s like a whole first time you launch it, it explains all of this. These people are clearly just canceling out of the splash intro screen. And then trying to do what they, for some reason, assume it should do because they saw the word markdown in it and just plus it’s set up. [00:14:37] Brett: You didn’t pay for this shit, like, not directly. Anyway. [00:14:42] Christina: Yeah. I mean, never underestimate how entitled people are about stuff, right? Because in their mind they’re like, well, I pay for setup and everything I get on this should be valuable, otherwise I’m gonna cancel my, you know what I mean? Like, [00:14:53] Brett: I don’t, I don’t hate that idea. I, I think setup should be a curated set of [00:15:00] apps that should work and do what they say. You just should read what they say they do. If, and this, this last review that I’m talking about, he clearly knew what Mark did. And like I said, I’m not mad at him. He, [00:15:16] Christina: No, he reported a bunch of bugs, which are good. Yeah. [00:15:18] Brett: Um, and it’s useful information. Uh, it does bum me out to get negative reviews in general, but yeah, as far as negative reviews go, this one was legit. [00:15:30] Christina: Are you able to, um, uh, respond and at least be like, thank, thank you for the, you know, the, the, the, the bug reports. Um, I’d like to. [00:15:39] Brett: I always wait a day before I respond to a negative review just so I can like, absorb and like what I’m telling you right now is what I should reply with. Um, when I first got the review, my response was, yeah, it’s a complicated app. Of course it’s complex to set [00:16:00] up. [00:16:00] Jeff: Is this a good time to talk about your text expander expansion for, for responding to people who complain about the app? [00:16:06] Brett: Yeah, I feel like this, we have no topics. This whole thing could be one weird long mental health corner. I [00:16:13] Jeff: the story. Tell the story of that. I don’t know if that’s been talked about in a long time [00:16:16] Brett: Wait, which one? [00:16:17] Jeff: you used to have a text expander snippet when you had to respond to somebody writing you and being mean about the app that I think you typed like fuck right off and then it expanded to a very like, diplomatic response. [00:16:29] Jeff: I’m not sure [00:16:30] Brett: Yeah. I don’t have that one anymore. I’ve lost it, but yeah, uh, I can, I had it so that I could type my instantaneous reaction and it would expand to you. Thank you for your feedback, [00:16:45] Jeff: it’s a really, I mean that’s like a kind of a powerful move. [00:16:49] Christina: Honestly, I was gonna say, like, I was gonna say like, so I, I can’t use Text Expander, um, at, at work, but I, I could probably use like the, the built-in, um, macros [00:17:00] thing, or I could find another, you know, macro tool to, to, to use. Um, we just can’t use other people cloud stuff. Um, on, on a [00:17:08] Jeff: can use a Mac. [00:17:09] Christina: Yes, yes. Can use a Mac, but it’s just third party. [00:17:13] Brett: a Chrome pc, [00:17:14] Jeff: Well, Chromebook. [00:17:15] Christina: no. They, they, I mean, I, I mean they, they would like that I’m sure, but no, I, I was able to get a a, an M four, um, pro with 48 gigs of ram, um, only, um, 16 inch only, um, five 12 SSD, so that’s, you know, uh, [00:17:32] Brett: My work computer is a 256 gigabyte Intel 12 inch MacBook Pro. Yeah. [00:17:40] Jeff: Wow. Yeah. [00:17:43] Christina: Um, yeah, [00:17:45] Brett: Christina, you were saying you couldn’t use text [00:17:48] Christina: Yeah, I couldn’t use, but I could use something similar and No, but that, that could be like a useful thing where like sometimes you see stuff and you’re like, okay, I’m just gonna type in like my default reaction and it’ll, you know, expand to something nicer. [00:18:00] Like, um, and, and that would be useful in, in certain like, actually plenty of non-work scenarios too. [00:18:07] Christina: Like, I, I, I like that idea of being like, okay, go fuck yourself, can become I’m here. Your feedback and you know, I’ll take this [00:18:15] Brett: I, uh, I mentioned this last episode, um, but I shadowed this person who currently administers the AI and data science blog and no longer, I now administer the AI and data science blog, and they had a Confluence page with all of their response snippets, [00:18:41] Christina: yes, [00:18:41] Brett: and it takes, like, it takes that page, I’m not kidding, 20 to 30 seconds to load. [00:18:49] Brett: So you have to go to your bookmark. You wait 20 to 30 seconds, and then you manually copy the response out of the page, add it to [00:19:00] Wrike, which also takes 20 to 30 [00:19:02] Jeff: But gives you the time you need to breathe and settle down. [00:19:07] Christina: Yeah. Cc? [00:19:09] Brett: and then you paste it, and then you edit it. But with I, I copied that entire page into text. Expender [00:19:15] Christina: Yep. [00:19:16] Brett: added a bunch of fill-ins so that I could modify, like, based on the context of the reply. And I feel like this is exactly what text expander and text plays were made for is customer service replies, [00:19:32] Christina: Oh, no, totally. [00:19:34] Brett: what I’m doing. [00:19:35] Christina: No. No, totally. I mean, and I think that’s why like text expander, like pivoted, like to the enterprise market and, and some of those other, you know, things have too because, and, and consumers always get pissed off about that ’cause they’re like, what do I have to pay for a subscription and why do I have to do this and that? [00:19:48] Christina: And you’re like, I, I mean, I get it. Um, and, and there are, um, like there’s, um, who, who makes it text? Uh, it’s not text place. It’s, uh, [00:19:56] Brett: Um, type ator. [00:19:57] Christina: type in inter Yeah. Type it, which, um, if [00:20:00] I were going to use one, probably would be the one that I would be able to use at work. Like I, because I could make that work locally. [00:20:05] Brett: no, there’s no cloud. [00:20:07] Christina: Right. And so, and, and I have a license for it and it’s a great app. Um, also it’s lower resources, which sometimes matters like, it doesn’t matter like on my stuff, but it is lower resources. But like text expander. Yeah, you’re exactly right. Like for a customer service scenario where you have like a kind of a internal shared set of snippets that people can edit or just like take definition of an add to, like, you can imagine that if you’re in a call center or something, you have to have a tool like that, you know, in your responses. [00:20:38] Christina: Well, who am I kidding? Is all about to be AI soon, but like, assuming you still have a call center staffed by, you know, pseudo humans. Like this is totally, whether you’re doing email responses or chat or tickets or whatever, like if you know that you have, you know, the, the top like, like 30 or 50 most, you know, common things like having [00:21:00] like that library of stuff that you can just auto insert, you know, with a few keys has to be very useful. [00:21:07] Brett: I would like to take this opportunity to say that Text Blaze is a very good product and is very low resource. Um, I. Like, it doesn’t even show up on my activity monitor. It’s way down at the bottom and it has a few, I’ve like, it can’t expand after Whitespace the way text expander can, which has taken a lot of getting used to and it can’t run scripts, which is why I have been developing so many different APIs, like the Markdown Lipsom, API, because if I wanna, if I wanna alarm Ipso snippet, that’s truly dynamic. [00:21:48] Brett: I need, it can, it can pull from a web API, but it can’t run a script locally. So I just build web [00:21:56] Christina: So you, so you just, okay, so you’re, so basically [00:21:58] Brett: which is not accessible to [00:22:00] every user. [00:22:01] Christina: not at all. Not at all. Because most, most, most users are gonna be like, well, where am I hosting this? Or where is this being done? Or Do I have these API keys in my environment? Yeah. Um, but like, yeah. ’cause at that point, yeah. Um, is, is that like a design decision? [00:22:13] Christina: Do you know, from their like perspective or? [00:22:17] Brett: I think it’s just a shortcoming. Maybe they’ll get to it eventually. Um, I, the, the expand after spaces thing, I think is just a shortsighted, [00:22:29] Christina: Yeah. [00:22:29] Brett: um, [00:22:30] Christina: That seems like a [00:22:31] Brett: design. I think it seems like a design decision, but I think it was shortsighted, whatever it [00:22:37] Jeff: Is there anything about it that you would say it does, that text expander doesn’t, that you like? [00:22:45] Brett: Um, I had an answer to this question previously, but like when I, so Text Expander sponsored my blog for like a decade and, and I would [00:23:00] never use anything other than text Expander because they were so supportive of my work. Um, but then like Greg was. Greg left, retired, left the company, and when they reevaluated all their sponsorships, I didn’t make the cut and I don’t think they’re doing many sponsorships [00:23:21] Christina: No, no, I, no, I, I, I think, yeah. ’cause yeah, they used to, you know, sponsor like my podcast back in the day and things like that too. Like, and it, [00:23:28] Brett: then I started, yeah, I started exploring like other topics and a former employee of Text Expander was now working for Text Blaze and he got me in with a free, like enterprise level account. And at that time I felt it was important to let my readers know why I was even trying out text Blaze after a decade of evangelizing text expander. [00:23:58] Brett: And I had all the [00:24:00] reasons, but I’ve forgotten them. [00:24:03] Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think the resource thing is probably a good one. Like, again, like it’s not, it’s not a problem for a lot of people. I think the fact that, um, yeah, I mean, similar to me, like, like I use, well, so, and actually, you know what I could use ’cause we, ’cause people have it set up. What I could use at work and what I should use at work is, uh, Alfred, um, just, just set up Alfred, um, stuff for, for text expansion. [00:24:26] Christina: Right? [00:24:26] Brett: Yeah, well, launch Bar has [00:24:28] Christina: launch part does too. Yeah. Launch [00:24:30] Brett: or snippets anyway. [00:24:31] Christina: Exactly. And, and, and, um, uh, like Alfred’s allowed, um, Raycast is allowed, albeit not with the AI stuff. Um, [00:24:40] Brett: about keyboard Maestro, which can expand based on regular expressions. [00:24:44] Christina: Oh yeah. All that stuff is allowed. The, the, the only thing. [00:24:46] Jeff: keyboard. [00:24:47] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. The only, the only thing that is, is kind of like band at work is like if it’s, you know, relying on kind of like a, a, a third party cloud. [00:24:54] Christina: And even then, like, it’s not as if they, so the way I have mine configured it so that I is, is [00:25:00] that I have an exception because I’m a package managed user, which means that I use home brew. So I don’t have to like, go through this process of getting apps approved or not approved, like whether they’re allowed to run in your system or not. [00:25:11] Christina: And it, and it’s not that heavyweight of a process in comparison to how it could be, like, they actually do it pretty well, but they take security seriously. And like, I don’t wanna ever have anything that would be work related, stored in any cloud that is not like the corporate cloud that we use. Right. [00:25:27] Christina: Like, so, so like obsidian is allowed to be used, but you can’t use it. Um, like you can’t sync with your mobile device unless you have like a a, a [00:25:37] Brett: What about like, [00:25:38] Christina: device. [00:25:39] Brett: oh, you could use Google Drive to [00:25:41] Christina: Yes, yes. But it would have to be corporate drive. [00:25:44] Brett: Yeah, [00:25:45] Christina: Which, which the problem with that is, is that corporate drive then, like, I, I couldn’t use it on any other computer, but I could use it like, just on [00:25:52] Brett: what’s the point then? [00:25:54] Christina: Right. [00:25:54] Christina: Right, exactly. So, well, I mean, the point would be, I guess that if, if, if I needed to set up a new computer or if I used [00:26:00] multiple machines, right. So, which, which, which I don’t. So, but, but again, that, this kind of goes back to like, what’s the point? So like, you know, but, but at GitHub we didn’t have the same level of restrictions. [00:26:11] Christina: Um, because I mean, I think they would’ve liked to, they’re just the IT team’s not that big and, you know, they’re not gonna have the resources to, to be able to put that stuff in place. Um, but yeah, but I used, I used Ator, frankly, more for the resource usage stuff than kind of anything. Because if I had a lot of stuff running, like I did note that, you know, and I, I pay for tax expander. [00:26:33] Christina: I still do out of kind of loyalty. But, you know, it, it, it can, it, it can, um. Be kind of a resource hog where it’s like type data. Not having that wasn’t an issue. And then I, and then with the add additional thing, I’m like, okay, I know that I’m never going to have this, you know, um, I’m not syncing across multiple machines and I, I don’t need a cloud aspect. [00:26:57] Brett: you know, so, okay [00:27:00] vs. Code is a resource hog, but what shocked me last time my computer froze up. Um, and this is a computer with 128 gigabytes of Ram and it froze. And I got the, the force quit dialogue that listed all of the apps that were Resource hogs, Flo Todo, which I used to run like a Facebook SSBA single slate browser. [00:27:28] Brett: Um, so I just have a single Facebook app that is sandbox from everything else, and it was taking up 128 gigabytes of Ram. [00:27:39] Christina: So, so clearly has a bug. Yeah. [00:27:41] Brett: It has a leak, and it was ob, it was paging out, and it, it locked up my system. So negative for Flo Tado. [00:27:51] Jeff: That’s crazy. [00:27:52] Christina: Yeah. That is sense. I’ve, when that happens, I always, when we’re talking about like bug reports and like I try to be like the good [00:28:00] user who’s like, okay, if I notice that that this has happened, like yeah, there’s clearly a memory leak or there’s some sort of other thing going on if this is happening. And I usually try to report it and sometimes it gets responses and sometimes it doesn’t. [00:28:11] Christina: But Yeah, [00:28:12] Brett: I will, I will report it to Flo Tado, even though I’m not sure that app is actively, uh, in development right now, [00:28:21] Christina: Yeah, that’s always the hard thing about stuff like that. Yeah. Um, and um, yeah, um, SSBs are actually the hard thing at Google because obviously we can create progressive web apps. But we can’t, at least for work resources, um, for, for non-work resources, you can use whatever browser you want. And some people who do testing, which I don’t, can do testing on other browsers. [00:28:43] Christina: Right. If like that’s what their job is. But like, work stuff can only be used in Chrome, like period [00:28:50] Brett: Are you allowed to add extensions to Chrome? [00:28:53] Christina: Yes, yes. Now there are some that are going to be like, that are like unilaterally banned that they like, you know, full [00:29:00] on like block, but that’s few and far between. And then they do have like a curated Chrome store. [00:29:07] Christina: Stuff that maybe they’ve altered. Right? So there might be like, like versions, like people maintain forks. Sometimes it’s part of their job. Sometimes it’s just people wanting to do it because they’re, you know, committed to it, who will maintain a fork of a popular Chrome extension internally only. Right. [00:29:22] Christina: So that it doesn’t exfiltrate anything. Yeah, no, I mean, the, it, it’s weird ’cause like I, I go through this process of being both frustrated sometimes by the, the, the barriers that are set up, even though I understand why they are, and also being insanely impressed at like how much infra, like is internally built up. [00:29:42] Christina: Like, the fact that like so much, so many internal tools exist, or, or, you know, whether they’re recreations of things that exist elsewhere or not, is, I’ve never seen anything like it, like in, at least in terms of competence, like Microsoft. For has like internal versions of a lot of stuff, but [00:30:00] most of it is very similar to the, the stuff that they sell externally. [00:30:04] Christina: Um, and, and GitHub, um, obviously develops GitHub on GitHub but uses a lot of third party tools. Google like, does a tremendous amount of stuff all internally and sometimes they, there are like external versions and sometimes there’s not, and you’re just like, oh shit. Like, a lot of people way smarter than me work at this place and maintain [00:30:26] Brett: that’s so much cooler than working at Oracle. Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba [00:30:29] Brett: This episode is sponsored by one of our favorite developers, RBA makers of powerful audio software for the Mac. They’ve been developing audio focus apps for the Mac for over 20 years, going all the way back to OS. So Harold, Chris, Harold corrected me. [00:30:49] Brett: I always say iOS apparently, and this time I’m going to get it right, going all the way back to OS 10.2, which is Jaguar, since [00:31:00] it’s been a while. Their latest versions make it a snap to get started with. No need to restart your Mac. I personally love Sound Source and loop back and use them all the time. [00:31:10] Brett: Sound Source puts per app audio controls, including the ability to apply effects right in your menu bar and Loop Back is an amazing tool for routing audio signals and working with and multiple audio devices. And I would be remiss not to praise Audio Hijack the all purpose tool for recording and routing audio on [00:31:32] Jeff: All praise. All praise. Audio hijack. [00:31:36] Brett: It can do just about anything with application audio or microphone input and has a ton of automation possibilities. Learn more about all of Rogue Amiga [email protected] slash Overtired. That’s mac audio.com/ Overtired. Listeners of Overtired can save 20% off any [00:32:00] purchase through the end of May with the coupon code Overtired. [00:32:04] Brett: Just go to mac audio.com/ Overtired and use the coupon code Overtired. [00:32:11] Jeff: Yes, you should. [00:32:12] Christina: Hell yeah. Mental Health Corner: Jeff’s Turn [00:32:14] Brett: Fucking A. All right, so we’re half an hour in and we’re still on what is technically my mental health corner. So how are you guys doing? [00:32:25] Christina: Jeff, go ahead. [00:32:26] Jeff: abdicating your mental health corner? Is that what we call it? Abdicating? Um, I’m doing good. It’s, you know, it’s sunny and warm. It, it makes everything go away for a minute. Um, but there isn’t too much to go away. Uh, yeah, I’m doing, I’m doing well. I’m, I had a really nice, I feel like I always report this when it happens, but I had a nice trip. [00:32:46] Jeff: It took my youngest son to spend a couple days alone with his older brother at college. Uh, it got to and stay in his dorm ’cause there was an empty bed there and stuff. And so it was really, it was really cool to be able to do that. And he went to some classes and [00:33:00] they went and saw a movie and hung out and who knows what else. [00:33:03] Jeff: I mean, I actually don’t think there was much else, but it’s not my business anyhow. Um, so it was really sweet. Uh, and, and just nice to have that time. My, you know, it’s like an 11 hour drive to where my son goes to college and I’ve found that those are just the best. Times with my kids because you’re not, it’s nothing’s forced. [00:33:24] Jeff: You’re not asking them to answer a question at the end of the day that, you know, they just don’t wanna talk about school. Whatever it is. It’s like you can just sit there. I always let them DJ the whole 11 hours, like, and you can just kind of sit there and like let things come up. And I find that to be an amazing way to just be with either of them. [00:33:42] Jeff: So that’s always just like, I just feel really good after that and kind of carry that with me. Um, other thing I, I just realized this is so dumb, but. I don’t read ever. Like, I mean I don’t read books ever. I love to read books, but I just cannot, I can’t read ’em when I’m laying down in bed ’cause I fall asleep right [00:34:00] away. [00:34:00] Jeff: And I had a book club, we had this book club for a while. I’ve probably talked about. That was kind of amazing ’cause the whole premise was to read the books that like you kind of were interested in that you feel like if it was 1940, uh, you would’ve read it in high school. But, um. But you don’t have any reason to read it. [00:34:16] Jeff: It’s how we read, like War and Peace. It’s how I read Donkey Hte, all these books, Moby, Dick, whatever. Um, and uh, and it was an amazing thing, but it just kind of fell apart for reasons that groups fall apart. Um, but this morning I woke up and I’m like, obviously been reading so much news and everything, all the obvious stuff that we’re all going through and, and how much space it takes up in our head. [00:34:36] Jeff: And I read, I don’t, nobody has to read, uh, Donte, but I highly recommend reading the prologue because it’s fucking amazing. Um, and so I just read the prologue ’cause I get a kick out of it. And then like the very beginning of the setup of Donte, which is also hilarious. Um, and it was not only delightful to read and laugh at something that definitely had nothing to do with this moment. [00:34:58] Jeff: I mean, you can make stretches and [00:35:00] metaphors or whatever, but, um, but what happened was then I, you know, I stopped reading and I started my day. I took my kid to work like whatever. But like, I. My head was filled with the book, like my head was not filled with the tariffs and everything else. And that was like the first time for a long time. [00:35:16] Jeff: Like I just had like echoes of impressions from just this very short bit I read this morning and I was like, huh, this, I think I just may have discovered an important, uh, durability tool for me, um, uh, in this, in this day. So that was kind of, that was really nice. Felt really good. Felt like an unburdening. [00:35:35] Jeff: Yeah. ’cause I can’t, I was like, ah, I’m not gonna even look at the news for a couple days, which I think is a good thing to do. I don’t think there’s any reason not to look at the news for a couple days. You’re not a bad advocate, you’re not a bad carer about the rights of people in the world. You’re not a bad anything. [00:35:49] Jeff: It’s just something you need to do. And I often can’t do it. Not in a, I’m not an obsessive news reader, but like I do, well I guess, I mean, like the way I read news is [00:36:00] I do open the New York Times app a few times a day and I tell. My dingus to tell me the news. Even sometimes, even though sometimes it means she tells me about the history of the juice. [00:36:09] Christina: right. [00:36:10] Jeff: I do ask her to tell me the news a few days, uh, a few times a day, but I’m not like crazy obsessive about it. But man, it’s a constant flow. It’s like constant, constantly flowing through my, my bloodstream. So anyway, that was, uh, it was a funny revelation to have, but it’s also just a very, like, nowadays revelation to have. [00:36:28] Jeff: And so again, I will say, read the prologue, Don Kte, if you love novels, like at all, if you love reading fiction, like you have never read a prologue and you won’t believe that this was written in like the fucking 16 hundreds or whatever is the 17 hours. I forget. So that was, that was nice. That, and the sun today has got me feeling pretty good. [00:36:49] Christina: I love [00:36:49] Brett: Jeff, do, do you get, uh, do you subscribe to Means tv? [00:36:54] Jeff: I don’t know what that is. [00:36:55] Brett: It’s a, we’ll call it an anti-capitalist network. [00:36:59] Jeff: Okay. [00:36:59] Brett: [00:37:00] Um, they just added some anarchist content, but it’s mostly socialist content. Um, and they have a means daily news. That is, if you wanna get, like, news that includes, like, successes in labor movements, you know, instead of just like what the tariffs are gonna do to the economy. [00:37:25] Brett: Um, it’s a, it’s a fun place to get news. [00:37:27] Jeff: you’re one of these guys that likes good news. See, I’m not even, I’m not attracted, I’m not even attracted to good news. I can’t even say [00:37:35] Christina: I’m, I’m, I’m exactly like you Jeff. Like, it, it, it, it doesn’t like, I don’t actually like, in some ways, like, it’s cool if it’s there, but like, I don’t want to curate that way personally. News Consumption and Mental Health [00:37:45] Christina: Like, I like my, my news addiction and it’s gotten a lot better and I’ve had to do it because it’s been, and sorry if I took over your mental health corner, um, uh, is that like, for my own mental health, I have to, like, I’ve had to disconnect and [00:38:00] disengage with news and, um, even though I haven’t been a reporter, uh, as my full-time job for a long time now, like, it, it took years and years. [00:38:10] Christina: Like it, I, I’ve, I’ve said this on the p before, like it was, um, it was January 6th. That was like the moment that kind of broke me because it was, I realized one of the first big, like. Massive, like mass casualty, kind of like real time, like scenario, well, not mass casualty, but like, you know what I mean? [00:38:28] Christina: Like, like one of those like, like felt at the time, like world changing [00:38:32] Jeff: There were things that died that day. [00:38:34] Christina: Right, right. Exactly. [00:38:36] Jeff: and a lot of things died. [00:38:37] Christina: right. And, and I had to process it like not a reporter, which was really fucked for me because I, it, it, it, you know, I had become so desensitized to having to process that sort of stuff in, in real time. [00:38:53] Christina: And you think about it as, okay, what are the stories that we’re assigning? What angles are we doing? How are we getting the news [00:39:00] out? What are the important facts? What is real, what is not, what is gossip? Like you, you just, you handle the, the trauma frankly, of it all in a different way. And, and I had to like process it like a regular person and, and that really fucked me. [00:39:13] Christina: But it was also kind of a good reminder for me to be like, okay, since this is not the sort of stuff that you’d live with day in and day out anymore. You don’t have to be part of this all the time. And I know that for you it’s different because sometimes you have to be connected to stuff for your job and you [00:39:29] Jeff: I don’t anymore. [00:39:31] Christina: right? [00:39:31] Christina: Well, but, but, but you have, but you know what I mean, but like, even some of your research, right? There might be things you’re like, okay, I need to be plugged in on this. And so I have to be aware. And, um, and, and certainly from my job now, like I need to be plugged in with like AI announcements and stuff. [00:39:44] Christina: And like, that can obviously go into lots of complicated, you know, like different ways to process things. But it’s not the same as like the world is ending, you know what I mean? Or, or, or, or democracies and shambles and like the terrible stuff [00:40:00] that’s happening around us. And so for my own, like mental health, I fully agree with you. [00:40:05] Christina: Like, it doesn’t make you a bad person, doesn’t make you anything. If you’re like, you know what? I don’t wanna fucking look at this right [00:40:11] Jeff: Because you’re not helping anybody by reading the news. There are things you can do out of having read the news that you can do to help people. It actually doesn’t help anybody that you’re reading the news, [00:40:18] Christina: Well, and the thing is, is I think that there’s a difference, right? Like there’s a difference between being like obstinate and willfully, like, uh, refusing to acknowledge what’s happening around you and refusing to do it and actively engaging in it, right? Like, like, like, like I feel like it’s a problem if you just, you know, put your fingers in your ears and you’re like, I don’t see it. [00:40:41] Christina: I don’t know it, it’s not happening, [00:40:43] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:43] Christina: right? Like, I feel like that can actually be problematic. And, and, and if people need to do that for short term periods, you know, you do. You. But I feel like long term that is actually a problem. People don’t acknowledge the reality around them and, and, and the suffering and, and the bad things. [00:40:57] Christina: Like I feel like that’s a problem. But there’s a difference [00:41:00] between being like, I know how bad things are and I need to actively read every New York Times, or Wall Street Journal, or Bloomberg or whatever, headline, right? Like [00:41:08] Brett: there’s the, it’s possible to be aware of all the bad things that are happening without dwelling on it in an obsessive way. [00:41:18] Christina: Totally, totally. And, and like this is one of the reasons why, like, I’m not really posting about politics or anything else anymore on social media. And, and I think some people think that it’s because like, you know, it’s directives from bosses or whatever. No, that’s not at, although I’m sure that they would prefer that I not speak about political things. [00:41:35] Christina: Right. And fair enough. But like, that’s not what it is. It’s that it’s frankly that at this stage of the things that are happening, like I’ve had kind of a, a come to Jesus moment with myself where I’m like, my opinion doesn’t matter and I’m not helping anybody by like, I know what I mean. Like in some cases it does, I look back at like my, my past actions and I don’t regret them or anything, but I’m like, okay, [00:42:00] what were you accomplishing? [00:42:01] Christina: And, and, and at a certain point it does sometimes feel like, and people again, like other people can. Process and, and can comment and can do whatever they want, however they wanna do it. And I won’t judge that. Like I, I really do my best not to judge that. But like for me, it’s just kind of a thing where I’m like, okay, like what am I accomplishing by commenting and continuing to reify how bad this shit is? [00:42:23] Christina: Like, is this making me feel any better? Is this doing anything for me? And if it is great, right? For some people, like that could be a way of getting through some of the trauma and getting through some of the stuff would just be to talk about how bad it is. And I respect that. I just feel like, you know, we, we’ve gone through a really difficult last eight years and now things are just the point where I’m like, I don’t have it in me to do it anymore. [00:42:50] Christina: I just don’t. [00:42:52] Jeff: yeah. Yeah. I feel, I think a lot about like, um, seasons in life too. Like our lives have seasons, like they [00:43:00] have long seasons, but then there are little short seasons and like, I often think, I can’t help but think back to like a season of my life where I was willing to get like shot or blown up and almost did for my convictions and in order to care about a thing, an issue, a people, whatever. [00:43:15] Jeff: And I think that that was great. And I’m, I’m proud of myself for having, I’m proud of younger me for having done that. Finding Meaningful Ways to Help [00:43:20] Jeff: But like what I’ve settled into as an old man in this moment, and I learned this from the George Floyd uprising or, or sort of encoded it into my brain is like, I am very comfortable knowing that. [00:43:35] Jeff: I will see an opportunity at some point for a way I can help and I will help. And, and it may be, it may take me longer than other people. It may take me longer than some people think it should. But there is no too long because at some point you come into the game and the people that came in the first wave have burned out. [00:43:53] Jeff: And you do need a second wave. You do need new people. You always need people. And, and if I, I mean, if I waited [00:44:00] until I was 72 to do something meaningful again, um, will have, it will be meaningful that I’ve done it. And, and like one of the things I, I still think back to a lot, um, is like, so during the uprisings, like the first night. [00:44:16] Jeff: When everyone was outside the police precinct, the one that ultimately burned down and was, was abandoned. Um, I went out there ’cause I felt like I had to, and it was fucking scary. Like everything was off balance. Like, um, you know, everybody was, everybody on both sides was. Behaving in a way, and this isn’t a judgment, this is just what happens to humans when something is that elevated. [00:44:40] Jeff: Because what happened was so incredibly fucked. Um, everybody was just, it was, you know, it’s one of those things like any protest, and especially once the National Guard was here, the idea you, you, you look and see is a million protesters and a and a hundred, you know, national Guard. But actually what’s happening here, even if it’s basically [00:45:00] under control, is, is the line between chaos and, and great harm And whatever state you’re looking at now is just one person’s decision. [00:45:08] Jeff: And that decision could be, I threw a bottle and instead of hitting a, an officer’s. Or a National guards person’s helmet, it hit their face. And that national guards person then reacted as however they were always gonna react when they got their face hit right with a, with a bottle or whatever, like it was, that it’s that fine of a line. [00:45:25] Jeff: It’s true for things going well too, right? Like, it’s true for things that inspire movements, whatever. It’s often one person’s decision. It’s, it’s in the context of a movement and, and all these things, but it’s often one person makes one little decision. You may never know what that person was, who that person was, or what that decision was. [00:45:42] Jeff: Anyway, I, in all of that and that chaos, and it was scary. And, and you know, you’d have the windows open and you’d smell the smoke and hear the, you know, non-lethal rounds that, you know, would take people’s eyes out but wouldn’t kill them. Um, I got a call from a friend who was working as a medic [00:46:00] at the protests every night, and she knew I had a workshop. [00:46:04] Jeff: And she said, Hey, do you have respirators? And I was like, do I? And, and so what she did is on her way down to meet up with the medics before that night’s stuff really ramped up. She came over and like it was James Bond movie with the guy that has all the special weapons. I had laid out every kind of respirator on a picnic table. [00:46:21] Jeff: And she came by and was able to go, this one, this one, this one. And then she brought it down and they were tear gassing the shit out of people at this point. She brought it down and, and a handful of medics had had these respirators and were able to help because someone knew to ask me. I knew that that was an opportunity in a way I could help. [00:46:37] Jeff: And it felt really meaningful. And I think that in these times it can be so easy to beat yourself up ’cause you’re not doing this or that or to judge actions, whatever it is. But like. The only way movements or change happens is everyone kind of finds their place. Personal Protest Experiences [00:46:53] Jeff: And we’ve talked about this a million times. [00:46:55] Jeff: For me, the place was never holding a sign. I was at protest, but I could never hold a sign. I just [00:47:00] couldn’t do it. I could be a body there. I can’t hold a sign. I’m too much like, well, that just doesn’t say everything. Transition from Journalism [00:47:04] Jeff: I mean, well, you know, I, I just don’t know, not to mention copy editing signs, but, um, but like, the last thing I’ll say about this, ’cause it was something you, you triggered for me, Christina, when you were talking about ha like either having to, or also being able to process something not as a journalist, I still, there’s such a crystal clear point at which I knew I was not a journalist anymore. [00:47:27] Jeff: And it’s true ’cause I haven’t been one since then, but it was awesome. So I had been laid off from public radio and public radio is like so funny ’cause it’s so clearly like liberal and left leaning. But it, it works so hard to just, even in how voices are to just seem very reasonable, whatever else. And I always like, I both appreciate that and it drives me fucking crazy. [00:47:47] Jeff: Um. Yeah, it mostly drives me crazy. But, um, but anyway, there was a march commemorating the, the murder of Philando Castile here who [00:47:57] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:47:57] Jeff: by a police officer. Um, [00:48:00] and this march was destined to make its way down a entrance ramp to highway 94 and, and to shut it down. And I was there. This was still the point at which when I attended protests, I put a long skinny notebook in my back pocket just ’cause I don’t know why, like, partly I just, that helped me. [00:48:15] Jeff: ’cause I would take, I would just take, write things down for myself ’cause it’s how I’ve always been. But also sometimes I knew I was going to see other journalists. I saw what the hell. Um, but this time I just had one because I, I wanted to be able to document ’cause those are great. No, those are great notebooks to put in your hand and document. [00:48:30] Jeff: And, uh, and I’m walking and, and it becomes clear. People are starting to go down to 94 and I’m not really a, like lead the way and shut down the freeway guy, but I totally will go and watch but stand in the middle and recognize that I’m both a witness and a participant in that sense. And so. The whole march starts, like veering down the, the entrance ramp and, and at the, at, just at like the sort of pivot point where it’s very clear who’s going down and who’s not. [00:48:56] Jeff: I run into two journalists I know, and one of them had, had never met me. [00:49:00] And, and the one goes, Hey Jeff. And then he says the other one, Hey, this is Jeff ler. You know, he used to work for NPR and all these say whatever the guy’s like, oh, I’ve always wanted to meet you. And they go, what are you doing here? [00:49:09] Jeff: And I was like, just checking it out. And I said, and I just kind of proceeded down to 94 and participated in the shutdown of the freeway. And, uh, and that felt amazing. I was just like, nah, just checking it out. And, uh, but, but I’m also walking down here as you can see, and I have no press pass. So I was like, all right, I’m not a journalist anymore. [00:49:27] Jeff: And that’s awesome. Not that I couldn’t still be a journalist, I wanna be really clear about that. But like, that was just like a, I think I wanna be on the other side of this now. [00:49:35] Christina: Which honestly is kind of freeing in a sense. Protest Dynamics and Personal Involvement [00:49:37] Christina: Like, I don’t know, like what the, what the, um, like rules and requirements were for the places you worked, but that was always a really hard thing for me. Like I remember. Um, uh, covering like some of the, um, like the protests like, uh, you know, in, in, in 2015 and stuff. [00:49:52] Christina: And like, I had to be really careful. Like, you know, I had like, I, I would cover them and, but I had to be removed in a [00:50:00] certain sense. Right. And obviously you can’t be, like, I would be, you know, shouting along with folks and like, if I needed to make an argument, I could that like, well I need to fit in so that, you know, people don’t like look at you weird or whatever, you know, and you’re documenting things in like a, you know, reasonable way. [00:50:14] Christina: And, you know, you go and you like have like the lawyer’s numbers, like written on your like arm and stuff, you know, in case you get arrested and, and, and, and all that. Um. Which never happened, but you know, there, you never know what it’s going to be like. And, but like there did always feel like there had to be like this separation to a certain sense. [00:50:33] Christina: Like even though I frequently what would happen is I would go just to go myself and then I would find out that I was the only reporter from my publication there. And then I’d be like, well, fuck, well now I can’t just be here for me now I have to be like less involved. You know what I mean? Like, I am no longer [00:50:49] Jeff: Seeing the news value. Just so you know, I’m here now and I can report back. [00:50:53] Christina: Right. [00:50:53] Christina: Well, well, right. And, and so, so it would be almost, the inverse would be like, I went at first like to maybe be involved and like, oh, I’m separate from this. This isn’t like my main [00:51:00] beat. This is me as a, as a, you know, citizen. And then it becomes, okay, now I have to shift him to being an observer. Right. And, um, and so I imagine like, I don’t know, like what the lines were for you, that there has to be something like, even though it’s weirder to not have the press badge and whatnot, there’s also something freeing about being like, well, no, I can participate however I see fit, and I don’t have to like, hold up, like those lines of like journalistic, like, you know, integrity or ambiguity or, or whatever, you know? [00:51:27] Jeff: Yeah, it’s true. I mean, I always, and, and even when I was a journalist, the thing I think I always considered myself secretly was a participant observer in research terms. ’cause like I knew that whether I was there as a reporter or not, if I’m a body in the crowd, I’m a body in the crowd. And, and that felt meaningful, uh, to me. [00:51:44] Jeff: But [00:51:46] Brett: The, uh, the best article I read in the last week was about how to make lock boxes. Are you familiar with lock [00:51:53] Jeff: yes, I grew up in the nineties. [00:51:54] Brett: Yeah. Um, like. Tools to [00:52:00] lock yourself to objects or to other people to impede anything from the downing of a tree to traffic on a busy street. And this article fascinated me because it talked about how to like build it with carabiners so you could quick release if you needed to run, but no cop could get their arm in how to add multiple midline bolts so that the cops wouldn’t know which ones to cut to get you out of it. [00:52:33] Brett: How to reinforce it with fucking Kevlar. It was, it was funny. It was funny, but also it felt, it felt pertinent because I also can’t carry signs. I just, I won’t do it because it feels like going to protest in general feels somewhat futile to me. Like the average protest doesn’t make [00:53:00] any difference at all. [00:53:01] Brett: A well-behaved stay within the fenced area, protest doesn’t make a difference. Um, but a protest that is, um, obtrusive, can make a difference, uh, can make a statement. And to me, like the idea of lock boxes of really like fucking shit up that I can get into. Debate on Protest Tactics [00:53:27] Jeff: I would just, I’ll, I’ll say one thing about protests. I never feel particularly great at like very kind of mainstream feeling protests, but if they don’t happen, then the slide goes faster. Like it’s important that they happen. But I’m with you. Like I don’t, I’m rarely at a protest and really inspired, but, but I am inspired by the fact that this is still a community that’s, [00:53:50] Brett: I wanna be a part, I want to be a part of the crew that enables the protest to be fully what it can be. I wanna be [00:54:00] the person that stops traffic. I want to be the person that distracts the cops. I wanna be the person that makes it possible for that protest peacefully to be all it can be. Um, being the protester doesn’t appeal to me. [00:54:17] Brett: I used to carry a lot of signs in my early twenties, late teens, um, and it, it, it grew on me that it was futile. Like we weren’t making a difference. But the black block, as much as protestors often fear, uh, what the black block does. Often provides cover and ability to your protest. [00:54:47] Christina: Yeah. [00:54:47] Jeff: Don’t get me started on black block. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll just have a fight. [00:54:51] Brett: No, it’s okay. [00:54:53] Jeff: I think that it’s. It’s literally masquerading as something more meaningful than regular protests. [00:55:00] Like I have watched so many black, black people, I’ve known them. There are people in my life I care about who are black block. [00:55:04] Jeff: I know people that have been, there are people in my life who are prosecuted by other people in my life for being black block, and I support them a thousand percent. Uh, you know, like someone’s indicted, like I know what side I’m on. Um, I have experienced black block in my life and in my long life as an activist, as spoiled kids who are looking for a fix of some sort. [00:55:27] Jeff: And easy cover, easy cover for provocateurs. Like [00:55:30] Christina: I, yes, no, I, I fully agree with [00:55:32] Brett: but I would say that the primary complaint about the black block is that they cause property damage. [00:55:39] Jeff: Oh yeah. That’s not a complaint of mine. [00:55:41] Brett: yeah, [00:55:42] Jeff: I mean, it’s, it’s like, it’s, I think that [00:55:44] Brett: is not people. [00:55:45] Jeff: it’s true. I will say, actually I’m gonna retake, I’m take my thing back. I have seen the property damage and looked at it and gone. You actually didn’t help. You only heard at this [00:55:54] Christina: Yeah, I was, I was [00:55:55] Jeff: broke a window of that small business over here, which happened a ton here. [00:55:59] Jeff: Like [00:55:59] Christina: I [00:56:00] was. I was [00:56:00] Jeff: That probably felt good, but it didn’t help anything. And if anything it ratchets up. I, this is what I don’t like doing things like that while masked to me. I’m not gonna say it’s like cowardice ’cause I [00:56:10] Christina: I am [00:56:11] Jeff: a whole philosophy. Yeah. I’m just saying like, uh, before I get to that, right, like to me, and this is what I found, find powerful about nonviolent action, and I might very specifically say nonviolent action because people think of nonviolence as, as passivity, is that when you hide and when you then do things hidden, it creates a sort of tension and a ramping up and a sort of calculus in a, in a crowd that I have only ever seen lead to near disaster for everybody. [00:56:42] Jeff: Whereas when you are locking yourself up to a tree or whatever else and you have no mask on and you are saying, this is a risk I’ve decided to take and I’m doing it. Masks are a tricky thing now because of surveillance and AI and everything, but like, I, I do not, I, it’s like property damage. Yeah. If I’m not like, oh my God, my heart [00:57:00] hurts because this capitalist entity got its window broken or something. [00:57:04] Jeff: But I don’t, I’ve only experienced it be as a threat to myself as an activist doing serious work. It’s only way I’ve ever experienced it is that now, now everything is ratcheted up a little bit, and now we’re in the land of you do that just a little differently than maybe would’ve happened and all of a sudden they’re shooting or there’s [00:57:22] Christina: I, well, this is what I was gonna say. [00:57:24] Jeff: for everybody when you do that. [00:57:26] Christina: I was gonna say, ’cause that’s what ha that, that, that’s my problem with it. Like I, I’m not a fan of property damage and it’s not because I care so much about the property. Um, although I think you make a great point about, yeah, there are small businesses and individuals and people like, who have their cars messed up, who like, might not have the type of insurance and stuff, you know what I mean? [00:57:43] Christina: Like, there are like people who didn’t do anything and you’re fucking up their stuff because okay, great. It made you feel better, but what did it do? But, but my, my biggest thing is exactly what you said, that second part, which is that I think leads to two things. One, I think it embodies people sometimes. [00:57:58] Christina: And I, and I agree with this [00:58:00] also with, with like sometimes the black box type thing. Is that, um, is that it? Um, black blocks, whatever, um, is that it like, uh, can enable and encourage, um, this comes with poverty, damage to people who aren’t involved and aren’t part of the whole thing to just take part in the melee. [00:58:18] Christina: And, and then the movement gets tainted by that, right? Like you see that a lot with looting, like people who loot stuff are usually not like the people who were part of the protest, but the people who came around and were like, well, we might as well, you know, like, if, if this stuff is here for free for all and then everyone gets tagged by it. [00:58:35] Christina: And then the secondary thing is that, yeah, this now creates an environment where law enforcement can go in and can and can take action because they, they can make a claim that things were at risk or that things were getting dangerous to, to a certain degree. And it can go into a much more, um, like [00:58:52] Brett: is pacifying law enforcement your goal though? [00:58:55] Christina: Well, I, I think that I don’t really care about pacifying law enforcement. I’m saying I don’t [00:59:00] want people to get shot. I, I don’t want people to get shot and killed. And if you are going there and you’re going with the understanding that, yeah, I’m gonna be willing to get shot and killed for my protest, all power to you. [00:59:12] Christina: But I don’t think that’s how most people are doing things. And, and I don’t think, and I, I think a lot of times some of your most vocal people are the, to your point, like what you said earlier, Jeff, are the fucking like spoiled like kids who don’t have any experience, who have places to go back to who don’t really, aren’t even there for the convictions. [00:59:30] Christina: They’re just there for like the surface stuff. It’s like the, it’s the fucking Occupy Wall Street bullshit. It’s, it’s the fucking like, like Chaz and, and chop bullshit. And it doesn’t accomplish anything. Like we had a lot of people who genuinely died, like in, in Chap and cha, uh, chop and Chaz and fuck law enforcement. [00:59:48] Christina: I’m not here for any of that. But like, when you create a kind of an environment that people try to portray as being like this, you know, like. Like great [01:00:00] kind of idyllic, uh, community environment. And it wasn’t that. And then three people got shot and died, like, fuck off. Like, you know, like it wasn’t a, a good environment. [01:00:09] Christina: Like it wasn’t some sort of like utopia sort of thing. It was, it was a bunch of people who might’ve had some good intentions and I supported them. Like we, we gave water and we were like in support of what they were trying to do. And then it just morphed into this thing that wasn’t, and I don’t think it was helpful. [01:00:25] Christina: And I think that it, you know, hurt a lot of things more ultimately than it helped. Um, I’m fully in favor of people if they wanna, you know, fight the system that way. And they wanna do it if they feel like violence is the only way to get it across. Maybe sometimes it is, but I don’t have to participate in that. [01:00:41] Christina: And, and I don’t necessarily think that always, um, furthers what the goals are. But I’m also, I wanna be very clear and I don’t have any problems with people who are this. Reflections on Anarchism and Activism [01:00:51] Christina: I’m not an anarchist and I have absolutely no desire to be an anarchist. That is not my bag. If that’s how people wanna, wanna associate and do things all power to [01:01:00] you, you have that right? [01:01:01] Christina: That is not my, my position or like my affinity. So [01:01:08] Jeff: This is [01:01:08] Brett: So Christina, how are you? [01:01:10] Jeff: wait, I just wanna point out what people can’t see is that through all the, all this conversation, Brett is leaned back, you know, pretty, pretty well in his chair, probably as far as it goes. And he has a, a beautiful, beautiful, furry cat, uh, up to his neck and he’s just slowly stroking the cat’s neck. [01:01:27] Jeff: And the nat the cat is so happy and it, you don’t even look like a mobster. You look like a, you know, something far nicer. Um, [01:01:33] Christina: little bit like a mobster. [01:01:34] Jeff: that’s a, that’s a layer in this conversation right now that nobody [01:01:38] Brett: I’m a very nice anarchist. [01:01:40] Christina: No. And I, and, [01:01:41] Jeff: of very nice [01:01:42] Christina: And again, like I, I wanna be very clear, like I respect like that, that, that is like the stuff that you follow and like, support, like I really do. Um, that’s just not my position. But like I don’t have any problem with people who do that. It’s just not like how I choose to, you know, express my, my beliefs. [01:01:56] Christina: But I have no problem with people who do do that. And I feel like we need people like [01:02:00] that who are out there. I’m just not one of them. Like, [01:02:02] Brett: You said [01:02:02] Jeff: don’t conflate. Don’t conflate anarchists with black block [01:02:05] Christina: oh, I’m not. I’m [01:02:06] Jeff: not you. I’m talking to Brett, like I feel like I have a lot of lovely anarchists in my life and some of them [01:02:12] Brett: Yeah. Well that’s [01:02:13] Jeff: black block, but they do. It’s not fair to anarchism [01:02:15] Brett: the people with the lock boxes, the people without the mask, those are often anarchists. [01:02:21] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, [01:02:22] Brett: not saying like you have to be black block [01:02:25] Jeff: yeah, totally. I know you’re not, yeah, yeah. What does the cat [01:02:28] Christina: No. And, and, and to be clear, like I feel like people, like if you’re willing to put your own face and your own like, like name and stuff on top of it, like that is brave as fucking hell. And I think that’s amazing, right? Like if you’re willing to actually take the consequences to it, like that to me is incredible. [01:02:43] Christina: Um, [01:02:44] Jeff: what’s tricky now is like there are, I understand and I can hear someone saying as they’re listening or like banging their head against their, uh, I don’t know what, if you’re listening to this on your phone that like there are anew, there are reasons for people to wear masks and so it’s not mask wearing [01:03:00] that I think either of us is coming down on. [01:03:01] Jeff: It’s the sort of like, I am specifically, I’ll be honest, thinking of a kind of mostly young white activist who is masking up and breaking shit as kind of what I have in mind. And I also recognize that I am probably over overly narrow in how I describe it. Partly because I have a bo, I have a. Bodily response to it. [01:03:21] Jeff: Having watched that stuff draw people who have come to a protest without, um, without being prepared to get hurt, having watched people in that position get drawn into the risk of being hurt, including children in strollers. Um, because of what if I’m being really cruel and ungracious because of what feels like daddy issues, not anarchism. [01:03:42] Jeff: I mean, the black guys, [01:03:43] Brett: that’s [01:03:44] Jeff: I just, I look at like, oh yeah, that’s a daddy issue right there. That’s not anti-capitalist [01:03:49] Christina: Right, right, right. And [01:03:51] Jeff: dads can. [01:03:53] Christina: No, and, and totally like people, there are very valid reasons to have masks and stuff, but I feel like sometimes it, I, but [01:04:00] I will still say even then, like it’s one of those things where I’m like, I really respect, like, um, like there was this, uh, uh, employee protest, um, at, uh, at Microsoft, uh, last week, like on the fricking 50th anniversary, which is ballsy. [01:04:12] Christina: And look, I wouldn’t have done it and I don’t think it accomplished anything, but I respect the hell out of the people who did that, did that under their own faces and under their own names. And, and I’m like, you know what I mean? Well, I mean, look, if you’re going to, you know, interrupt like a, a major event or whatever, and, and you’re doing it for those reasons and you’re gonna do it for the things you claim, like, I’m sorry, I think you do need to do that with your own face and with your own name. [01:04:35] Christina: I think that if you do it, otherwise, I, I think it’s fucking cowardly. Um, uh, because it’s not like anybody was at risk for getting. You know, shot or anything like that wasn’t a risk there. Um, if you, but if you, like, if you’re gonna do that stuff and you know that you’re gonna get fired, and of course you’re gonna get fired, like, that’s really brave. [01:04:52] Christina: But do that under your name and your face. I think, again, I wouldn’t have done that and I don’t think it accomplished anything, but I really respect the people who did it, did it [01:05:00] like openly, you know what I mean? Like, that’s, that’s bravery. That’s bravery that I certainly don’t have. Um, I mean, I, I, I don’t know. [01:05:08] Christina: I guess if it was something I had strong enough convictions about, maybe right? But like, I would never pretend that like I have it in me, like I’m too risk averse to do a lot of that type of stuff. Um, but I respect people who, we do need people who will do that. You know, we do. [01:05:26] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. We need all types for sure. Brett and Christina, just because Brett brought up the nineties, uh, and, and the sort of direct action days, the, like the, really the beginning of the lockbox era in our generation, I have put a link to young child Jeffy interviewing Noam Chomsky in the, in the WTO protest era. [01:05:48] Christina: Oh wow. [01:05:49] Jeff: in the, a link in the show notes. I, I think I was, was, what is it, like 99 or [01:05:55] Christina: Yeah, that that was the [01:05:56] Brett: I was, I saw Noam Chomsky at the U of M in 99.[01:06:00] [01:06:00] Jeff: Did you? Yeah. I got to go to his office and interview him. [01:06:03] Brett: Oh, wow. [01:06:04] Jeff: It was awesome. And I, and there’s even a great scene at the end when he pulls down a couple of photos of his children and grandchildren that, that I really, that I [01:06:13] Brett: All right. [01:06:13] Jeff: So, and he says the word Pokemon, which was a goal of mine because I talked to a friend who was his literary agent. [01:06:19] Jeff: I’m like, look, I’m interviewing him. Chomsky One, I’m terrified. Two, gimme something, uh, that I can ask him about that isn’t gonna be an every other Noam Chomsky interview. Which of, as you remember, was like one a day if you were counting. And he is like, he’s fascinated with Pokemon and the, and the naming of it and the linguistics of it. [01:06:36] Jeff: I was like, got it. Thanks. So I did get him to say Pokemon at one [01:06:39] Christina: Which is freaking awesome. Awesome. Honestly, like I would be so proud of myself. I’d be like, I got him [01:06:43] Jeff: I was, I wasn’t even like, by the end, I wasn’t even like, I interviewed Noam Cho. I’m like, I got Noam Chomsky to say Pokemon. [01:06:50] Christina: which [01:06:50] Brett: was the same year I met Jello. B Alpha, [01:06:53] Jeff: Awesome. Oh man. My son just discovered Jello opera and, and just listened to one of [01:06:58] Brett: like spoken word. Yeah. Okay. [01:06:59] Jeff: well, [01:07:00] no, first Dead Kennedy’s [01:07:01] Brett: Yeah. [01:07:01] Jeff: and then, um, ’cause he is in a punk rock band. And then, uh, I was like, have you heard his spoken word? He is like, well, yeah, I was just wondering. I don’t really like poems. [01:07:08] Jeff: I was like, oh brother, these are not poems. You’re gonna love it. [01:07:12] Brett: I don’t remember what I said to Joe Biafra. I just remember like, this was at Little Tijuana’s before it was like a, [01:07:20] Jeff: Everybody, everybody in, in the nineties, if you, uh, if you had just left a punk rock show and you needed food, it didn’t matter if you were high or not high straight edge or not, you were going to little tiwan as, and you were in love with one of [01:07:33] Brett: For dollar pitchers of beer. I dated most of those waitresses, um, [01:07:39] Jeff: Oh [01:07:39] Brett: but I don’t remember what I said to him, but his reply was, don’t be an asshole. And I wore that as a badge of honor for so long. [01:07:49] Jeff: J Pi Alfred, who’s almost definitely an asshole, but I love him to death. Awesome. Christina, we we, uh, we gotta roll around [01:07:58] Christina: Yeah. No, and I [01:08:00] already, I already kind of talked about mine, I guess. I [01:08:01] Jeff: Yeah, you did. You [01:08:02] Christina: Um, yeah, I mean, so, uh, yeah, no, we’re good. TV Shows and Entertainment [01:08:05] Christina: Um, I, how one of the ways like talking about like disconnecting from like the news and stuff is like, I’ve been watching a lot more TV and um, ’cause it TV has been good. Uh, the last, uh, little bit like we had. [01:08:18] Christina: We had severance, um, which, which obviously ended was great. We had White Lotus, which I very much enjoyed. I don’t think it landed the ending. Um, [01:08:26] Jeff: still so fun [01:08:27] Christina: it was still so fun. Exactly. And, and, uh, and the drama now around that season that, that Jason Isaacs just being like a shit stir and just like giving these interviews where he’s just making it worse and you know that he knows it. [01:08:39] Christina: ’cause he’s like, I read everything about this. And I’m like, wow, man. Who would’ve thought that? Like, the guy that plays the dad, like, like the, like the doped up dad also, he’s British and he did such a great southern accent, like, [01:08:50] Jeff: Andy’s Daddy Malfoy, [01:08:52] Christina: yeah, yeah. [01:08:53] Jeff: took me halfway through the [01:08:55] Christina: Oh my God. [01:08:55] Jeff: I know this fucking face? [01:08:57] Christina: Yes, yes, you’re right. Daddy Malfoy. But like, he did such [01:09:00] a fucking good job, like playing like the Rich Southern guy. [01:09:04] Christina: And I know that, I know the rich Southern guy incredibly well. And like, he fucking like, nailed it, like, like the acts and everything, but then he’s just being such a shitster, so I’m like, I’m, I’m here for it. Um, the, uh, the last of us, uh, season two, uh, premieres, um, this week, I’m looking forward to that Hacks just came back. [01:09:24] Christina: Um, that’s one of my favorite shows. I don’t know if either of you have watched that, but [01:09:27] Jeff: No. [01:09:28] Christina: so, it’s a, it’s a, I think you both would really like it. It’s on, it’s on HBO Max whatever. Um, it’s, uh, stars, uh, gene Smart and um, uh, Hannah Eve. And it is, um, uh, created and written by um, two of the people who were heavily involved with Broad City. [01:09:47] Christina: Um, and um, and it’s, uh, but, but it’s um, and I love Broad City. Like I’m a broad city like all the way. ’cause it was my. You know, I wasn’t single, but like every other aspect help really did relate a lot to [01:10:00] my life at that time. It is a much better show. Um, it is, um, it, it’s, and it has a broader appeal, so it’s about this, um, woman who is a, a Las Vegas like standup comedian, like she’s in this universe. [01:10:13] Christina: Uh, I guess she maybe would be kind of like an Elaine Stitch type, although I guess younger, but like very famous, well known. Um, has like a, a show like on, on the strip, uh, at one of the biggest Dinos, um, is also a QVC person and they’re wanting to kind of. Kick her out. Um, and there’s this, uh, gen Z um, uh, bisexual writer from Los Angeles who got in trouble because of some stuff that she tweeted and they share an agent. [01:10:40] Christina: And the agent is like, you have to like write, she should write jokes for you. And they have kind of a, you know, love hate relationship with one another. And, um, and it’s going into its fourth season and, and the show has shifted a lot since then, but it’s, it’s a comedy and it’s, you know, one Emmy’s for being a comedy, but even though it’s like a half hour, like there’s a lot of heart [01:11:00] to it. [01:11:00] Christina: And it’s one of those things where it’s almost like, it’s like a comedy that it’s kind of a drama underneath and in some ways, but the acting is so good and it’s very funny. And, um, and season four already is really good. So watching that. Um, and uh, yeah, and like I said, I’m looking forward to the last of us, uh, season two, like very here for that. [01:11:22] Christina: Um. [01:11:23] Jeff: So here for it. I’m re I’m almost done rewatching season [01:11:26] Christina: same, same. I’m trying to like remind myself and I’ve played the game, so like I know the whole [01:11:30] Jeff: I have not, my kids have, but I, and I’ve not played, uh, the second game, so I don’t know anything about what’s about to happen, which is very exciting. Although I kind of bet it’s amazing to have played the game and then watch the [01:11:41] Christina: Yeah, no, the adaptation is so good. Like, I, I think I said this last year, I was more impressed by the fallout adaptation because they had so much less to work with. Like they had to capture the vibes of the game, and they did perfectly, like speaking of White Lotus and Walton Goggins, like, he was great on Fallout, but like, and I, I loved [01:12:00] Fallout for that reason. [01:12:00] Christina: But the last of us is like taking what, in my opinion, is like one of like the best like video games like ever and turning that into tv. And then in some ways, like there were some episodes in the first season that like transcended the source material, which you never see with adaptations. And very rarely do. [01:12:21] Christina: Right. Like the Godfather would be one of them. Right. But like, it, it’s, it’s [01:12:24] Jeff: Definitely better than the book. [01:12:26] Christina: well, I mean, I think the book is good, but like the, the movie is like other level and then like the, the sequel is like, you know, other level. Right. But like, you know, it, it’s rare that you have things that transcend the source material and like, it definitely did. [01:12:39] Christina: So, um, [01:12:40] Jeff: My godson is a kid in the next season of Fallout [01:12:44] Christina: oh, that’s awesome. [01:12:45] Jeff: it’s just, he’s in some scenes here and there, but he got to be in one scene that was just him and an actor that is not yet, uh, known to be in this season, and he didn’t know who it was gonna be, but the actor takes off his helmet and reveals himself in this scene. [01:12:59] Jeff: And, and I just [01:13:00] say it, it was like, holy fuck. Yeah. It was amazing. [01:13:03] Christina: That’s so [01:13:04] Jeff: He showed me all these scenes of getting his makeup set up and like all this amazing stuff. It was so cool. He is just like, uh, he’s about 10, you know? He is like a little [01:13:12] Christina: Nice. Well that’s, that’s fantastic for him. [01:13:15] Jeff: Shit, Danny Glamour. Did I get the age of my godson wrong? [01:13:18] Jeff: It’s Danny Glamour’s son. I, I take it, I [01:13:21] Brett: Friend of the show, Danny Gl, we haven’t heard from for [01:13:25] Jeff: He is gonna be in my house. He listens to every episode. He, he like basically live tweets, but on messaging to me when he is [01:13:32] Christina: Nice. Nice. I love that. Um, uh, the other of, and I just will mention it real quickly. Neither of you have seen it, but I will recommend it, um, that the pit just ended its first season. [01:13:45] Jeff: Looks good. [01:13:45] Christina: It’s really good. So a lot of people have made comparisons to er, which is completely fair because it is from, it stars, no. [01:13:52] Christina: Wiley as an ER doctor. Um, and, and, and, um, and, but this time they’re not in Chicago. They’re in, they’re in Pittsburgh. Um, hence like the [01:14:00] name is kind of a double entendre. ’cause like, they, they call the pit, like where like the, the ER is, and then it’s with two T’s because Pittsburgh, um, and the, the, uh, executive producer is John Wells, who was. [01:14:11] Christina: One of the main people behind ER and also the West Wing and the creator was a long time writer on er. Um, but the shows other than both being in emergency rooms, like they’re different, right? Like there are obviously it’s 30 years, you know, after er, so a lot has changed in emergency medicine and stuff, but it’s, it’s a really good show. [01:14:31] Christina: And the concert I think is really clever. And this is how they were able to, to have it to be a relatively low budget, like probably four and a half million an episode or so, which in these days is fairly low budget, is that they basically do an hour from each shift. So like, it starts at like 8:00 PM and then like, uh, or like 7:00 AM or something, and then like ends like. [01:14:54] Christina: Like midnight or whatever. So it’s like 15 hours of, [01:15:00] um, a whole shift in the er. So [01:15:02] Jeff: Oh, [01:15:02] Christina: what, so what’s cool about that is that you see like some of the same patients, like from episode to episode, because that’s one of the underlying things is that, that are 40 million, you know, people that health insurance and who use the ER as their primary doctor. [01:15:17] Christina: And so you have people who are like waiting all day and then you have like big, you know, events happen and like other stuff and like, you know, doctors kind of come in and off shifts, although most of them are throughout the whole time. It’s, it’s really good. It’s really well done. The acting is incredible. [01:15:30] Christina: Like the acting is so good and the writing is really good. And, um, and it’s already been renewed for a second season. They’ve already committed. They’re like, we’re going to. Um, do this once a year. It’s kind of like traditional tv. So like they’re already starting to write the next season and it’s gonna be back in January and like that. [01:15:48] Christina: I also appreciate, ’cause a, it’s like 15 episodes is almost like a network TV length series, right? Like it’s certainly better than what you, what we get in streaming for the most part and b, for them to be [01:16:00] like, no, this can be something you can count on, you know, to come back every year versus having to wait like however many years it’s been since the last of us, or, or whatever, you know? [01:16:09] Jeff: yeah. That’s all I should probably get to that. By the way, my godson is 13, I mean 12, sorry. 12. 12. But, but was a rockstar long before [01:16:18] Brett: Did you just text? [01:16:19] Jeff: fallout. Yes, I did. Yeah. [01:16:21] Christina: well, you know what, in fairness, in fairness to you, like if he’s 12, he’s probably pa, he’s probably playing 10. [01:16:26] Jeff: Hmm. Yeah, that’s right. That’s what I meant. [01:16:29] Brett: Yeah. Yeah, [01:16:30] Jeff: I was like, these are Hollywood rules. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Hollywood rules. Uh, last TV recommendation. Well, one, my wife and I are watching Season Two of Bad Sisters, which is just an awesome [01:16:41] Brett: That’s so good. [01:16:42] Jeff: So good. But we also are just finishing up. We got it took us forever to get to it, but season three of Sex Lives of College Girls, which by the way, when it’s up when my kids pass, I feel a little whatever, but, but I love, it’s a, Mindy Kaling is behind that show, but I love how afterschool special that show [01:16:58] Christina: Oh, totally. Totally. [01:16:59] Jeff: [01:17:00] so awesome. [01:17:01] Christina: No, totally. Although I will say like, after Renee rap left, like I knew it wasn’t getting renewed. I was like, your star is, I was like, your star is gone. Like, [01:17:09] Jeff: her so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, it’s a fun, [01:17:13] Christina: It’s a fun [01:17:14] Jeff: It’s stupid as [01:17:15] Christina: So dumb. But it’s, I [01:17:16] Jeff: it’s, but that’s what makes it like an afterschool special, but with sex, like it’s so awesome. Anyway. Also, Timothy Chala Me’s sister is, could not be more, more different than Timothy Chalamet and is fucking amazing. [01:17:31] Jeff: Better than Bob Dylan. [01:17:33] Brett: We’re an hour and 15 in, do you guys still wanna do a [01:17:37] Jeff: Yeah, [01:17:38] Christina: Yeah, [01:17:38] Jeff: got time. [01:17:40] Brett: All right, [01:17:41] Jeff: We’re just hanging out, having a conversation. Brett, having a, we’re just having a regular non diagnose. Uh [01:17:48] Christina: a conversational [01:17:49] Brett: Yeah. grAPPtitude [01:17:50] Brett: Alright, I will kick off. Um, uh, gratitude Mine is a well-known app among, I think our listeners and [01:18:00] you guys, uh, carabiner. Um, it is a, an app that at as close to system level as you can get, um, on Mac Os, will, uh, change the way your keys behave. And I have for a long time only use carabiner to create my hyper key, which is when you hold down caps lock and it functions as shift control, alt or option and command all as one key. [01:18:34] Brett: And I’ve done a lot of stuff with that. What I recently got into, like going a little crazy with it and my favorite current keyboard assignment is I can hold down, um, [01:18:50] Jeff: we fucking go [01:18:51] Brett: my, I can hold down semicolon with my right pinky, which is right where it is on the home row. [01:18:58] Jeff: while doing a [01:19:00] Kegel. [01:19:01] Brett: Then HIJK become, I’m sorry, H-I-J-I-K-L-I tried it with HJKL for a while, so I’m confused. [01:19:11] Brett: But, but JIKL become arrow keys for me. So I just hold my pinky down and then use my three remaining fingers to move my cursor around. And with carabiner, that still functions with like command and options. So I can do or, and shift, so I can do selections and everything with, uh, with just my right hand, never leaving the home. [01:19:39] Brett: So CERs my pick. [01:19:42] Jeff: I’d like to, I’d like to claim, claim a little bit of my time back. Uh, I don’t know. Is that what they [01:19:48] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’d like, I’d like to, I’d like to reclaim my time. [01:19:50] Jeff: I’d like to, I’d like to give a joke I made there a little more space, um, and contextualize it, which is that for anybody that doesn’t already know, and I’m sure all you know, Brett has some of the [01:20:00] craziest fucking keyboard shortcuts ever and can somehow remember them despite claiming or, or not being able to remember last week. [01:20:08] Jeff: He and I just suggested that one element of your, um, your keyboard shortcut is that you have to be doing kegels while you, while you press these buttons. And I wanna point out that men should also do cables. I, I is what I understand, which [01:20:21] Brett: Exercising the PC muscle can give you way stronger orgasms. [01:20:25] Jeff: oh, thank you sponsor. That was not even why I was told it was good. It’s an, it’s incontinence as you get older, that is actually the thing. But, um. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out, get that joke back in there, make a little space for it [01:20:38] Brett: Well done. [01:20:39] Jeff: yeah. Brett, I’m sure most of the listeners have Overtired know about carabiner because of you as of like 13, 14 years ago. [01:20:46] Brett: Yeah, [01:20:46] Jeff: ’cause you have been pitching that one hard for so long. You’re the reason I had a hyper key, [01:20:50] Brett: Back so, so it’s currently carabiner elements, but. Like back when I started using it 13, 14 years ago, it was carabiner. [01:21:00] Um, so carabiner elements is actually my pick for the week, but I’m done [01:21:07] Christina: Nice. [01:21:08] Jeff: All right, Christina. [01:21:09] Christina: So mine and I, okay, I feel bad saying this because, um. Regular people can’t use it right now, although they are starting to issue out invites, which is how I got it. But No, but, but, but I mentioned it just because I, I think they’re gonna start rolling it out more. Um, uh, actively. So Arc, the browser company, uh, the company behind arc, they have a, a new AI focused browser that they are calling Dia DIA and it is WebKit based. [01:21:37] Christina: Um, which is interesting. Um, rather than, I’m not really sure why WebKit ’cause I don’t really think that there is an advantage to WebKit at all. Um Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna use it, I would just use Blink. Like if you’re gonna use, like, in my opinion, I, I don’t, there’s not, there’s conclusively not an [01:22:00] improvement in battery life in WebKit versus Chromium. [01:22:02] Christina: There’s. Way less of an extension stuff, whatever, regardless. Um, I mean, I don’t have a problem with WebKit, I just don’t necessarily see the point, but, but this is, but it’s still an interesting browser, um, that basically is like AI centric. So like you kind of have like, um, uh, an always open kind of like, uh, window view where you can, you know, ask stuff with like chat GBT or other AI assistance and whatnot, and, and then also ask it about different things that you’re doing and researching. [01:22:30] Christina: And so it, it’s a cool idea. Uh, dia browser.com is, is where they have, uh, information about it. Um, I’ll see if I can get, uh, an invite for, for YouTube, but it’s, um, it’s, uh, it’s, there are a lot of really interesting, um, we’ve talked about this a lot over the last couple of years, like people taking on different rifts of, of the, the web browser. [01:22:50] Christina: And, um, I, I am a little bit. Concerned about what this means for arc. I have a feeling that it means that ARC is essentially [01:23:00] just in maintenance mode. I’ve been getting that impression too, which, which sucks because I really like arc, um, a lot. [01:23:06] Jeff: cool. Very [01:23:07] Christina: But, um, maybe, I think, I think that Dia they’re trying to basically be a little bit more broad because the only problem with ARC is that once you really get into it, like I think it’s awesome, but the learning curve and like the time that you have to spend with it is significant. [01:23:21] Christina: Like for me, even I will say that like I had to spend a lot of time with Arc to really have it click for me. And I don’t think that most people are willing to go through that time and I don’t blame them. Um, DIA just in the little bit of time I’ve, I’ve been using it I guess since like Monday, um, on my personal devices and it’s, it’s pretty cool. [01:23:37] Christina: It is Apple silicon only right now. I hope that they will bring it to um, uh, uh, you know, Intel Max. ’cause there are still lots of them out there. Um, and I would like to use it on my iMac, but, um, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s kind of a cool concept and there’s some really neat ideas and stuff that they’re doing. So Zoia is my pick. [01:23:54] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. My, I, because I’m not a [01:24:00] Linux guy, this Linux pick I’m about to make, I will not go on and on about. Um, but I have, so I moved into an operations director role at my organization and we’re like member owned, cooperative with like seven member owners and just one employee who’s not a member. [01:24:16] Jeff: So it’s a small group, but, um, but like we’ve just never, in the history of kind of leadership in the organization, there’s never been a point where like there’s a lot of thought about security or, or how we might be at risk or how our use of, or, you know, the company’s email might or something goes wrong, how that could impact us, you know, various things. [01:24:38] Jeff: I’ve played with Kelly Linux, which is where I’m getting with this for over the years, like many times, um, just ’cause I find the toolbox insane. And for anybody that doesn’t know, it’s like it’s a distro of, of, of Linux that is just preloaded with every like, you know, quote unquote ethical and not ethical hacker tool. [01:24:55] Jeff: You can imagine. I mean, it’s definitely like you, it’s definitely like getting into a tank and [01:25:00] being like, well, this one lets me drive, but that one really fucks people up. Um, but, uh, but I’ve been doing this, I’ve been doing something that, like, I remember I went to a journalism, like a computer journalist nerd conference years ago, and there was a New York Times journalist there, and she did a, she did a whole session called Docs [01:25:18] Christina: Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that. [01:25:19] Jeff: was like, yeah, go see all the different ways you’re out there, you are exposed, whatever it is. And so I mostly do what they call, you know, like open source intelligence, uh, is what I’m playing with with Kelly Linux, where it’s just like simple things that there have been services for. [01:25:35] Jeff: Like type in a username and see. Um, you know, how many accounts exist out there. And honestly, I really recommend people doing that for themselves. ’cause it’s like, if you’re our age and you’ve been on the internet this long, you’re like, oh, fuck that one too. And then there’s a whole, like the, the CLI for have I been pod uh, is amazing. [01:25:53] Jeff: And you can use all the functions on the website, but you can use, I can like write a script with all of our members on it [01:26:00] and check it and you can of course check passwords, all that stuff. Um, and so I’ve basically been working on like learning all the various tools for open source intelligence and then writing a script that just checks every once in a while for all of our members and, and my family members and some friends. [01:26:15] Jeff: Uh, and then allows me to sort of like send them information so it can be like, Hey, just so you know, this is where you exist, this is whatever. Um, and it’s great. It’s a step up from what I did a long time ago, which was part of actually the Docs Yourself thing, which is I set up a. A Google, uh, alert for pretty much everybody in my family, every colleague, every whatever else, so that if someone shows up on the internet in a way that they didn’t mean to you, see it right away. [01:26:39] Jeff: But anyway, I, I love, I mean, I’m not a Linux guy at all, like, uh, but I really love, um, getting into an immersive world like that. And Cali Linux is just like, if you’re interested in a little bit, definitely takes some, like having a tutorial by your side. But like, it’s pretty, it’s pretty enlightening and amazing to just dip in [01:27:00] even just the open source intelligence tools and, and get a sense of what you can know about yourself online. [01:27:05] Jeff: But what can be known about you? It’s pretty powerful and like humbling. [01:27:10] Christina: No, I totally agree. I totally agree. And I, I think Cali is an awesome distribution. Um, it’s one of those that you can, like, if you wanna try it out, like you can run it in a BM or you can put it on a USB thumb drive and like [01:27:19] Jeff: I have mine on a raspberry pie and [01:27:21] Christina: I was gonna say, [01:27:22] Jeff: scale. [01:27:23] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say, um, raspberry pie is great for another thing I would say. [01:27:27] Christina: Um, and I don’t have any, you know, listeners, this will apply to, uh, ’cause we know our listenership, but if you, because it, it can be so useful for the scenarios that you described, Jeff. I often use it, um, within, um, WSL, the Windows subsystem for Linux because they actually have a version that they’ve, uh, you know, uh, like a distro so to speak, that you can install for WSL. [01:27:48] Christina: They’ve even, like, we’re one of the first ones to become part of like the modern WSL infra. And so they even have like a whole way where you can even launch like the gooey apps from within Windows. So if you want, but one, and what’s nice about [01:28:00] that, and, and I I think especially think about like cis admin types or people who might be doing these things, is that like, okay, you have a Windows machine, you run, run, run some of these tools. [01:28:08] Christina: You can also have it integrate with some of like maybe your, your Windows files and other stuff to pipe through without having to do like the normal, you know, VM type of thing or, or, or, or SSH thing. So, um. So, yeah, just throwing that out there. ’cause um, I, I used to sometimes communicate with that team, um, when I would talk with the WSL folks and, and Callie was always like, in my opinion, like one of like the best, like WSL Distros, um, uh, like more, you know, specific ones other than like, you know, like the, a bunch who were fedora or, or whatever. [01:28:39] Christina: So. [01:28:40] Jeff: Yeah, well it’s great too because most of the tools, what’s nice is the whole menu’s there. It’s like going to a Denny’s, but you can go have a hamburger at home, like you can go onto your Mac and get into home brew and, and install most of these tools. But like it’s a nice place to just be immersed in it and be like, what’s this do? [01:28:55] Jeff: What’s this [01:28:56] Christina: well, that’s the thing. That’s, that’s why I think it’s so great to have it, like on a raspberry pie or on a thumb drive [01:29:00] or like a WSL like instance because yeah, to your point, you can have this installed basically in any Linux TRO or on Mac os. Um, but like, you don’t have to worry about that. [01:29:10] Christina: It’s all one place and, uh, and, and it, and that makes it really cool. [01:29:14] Jeff: Yeah. Awesome. [01:29:17] Brett: All right, well it’s two o’clock here and I haven’t had lunch and I have to pee so bad, so it has been so good talking to you guys. Thank you. But I think we should call it [01:29:29] Jeff: Get some pee. [01:29:30] Brett: get some, get some pee. I. [01:29:31] Christina: Get some pee.

Hosts Brett Terpstra, Christina Warren, and Jeff Severns Guntzel welcome special guest Corey O'Brien, author of 'Two Truths and a Lie,' who shares his existential journey of writing and promoting his first novel, a rich noir cyberpunk entry. From the gritty soul of cyberpunk to the calming practice of metal welding, this episode is a rollercoaster of conversations, insights, and creative tools. Overtired style.

Brett, Christina, and Jeff are joined by beloved guest Merlin Mann for a rollercoaster of emotions and tech tips. From Merlin’s humorous takes on invulnerability and the quirks of managing medications to deep dives into browser tab control and the joys of music discovery, there’s never a dull moment. Brett struggles with an Oracle reorg, Christina reminisces about heart-wrenching childhood books, and Jeff finds solace in the comforting arms of Primus auditions. With discussions on the necessity of vulnerability amidst chaos and practical tech gratitudes, this episode balances heartfelt advice with side-splitting banter. Get ready to laugh, ponder, and maybe shed a tear as you navigate the complexities of life, tech, and emotions with the gang (and Merlin). Sponsor Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired! Show Links Elvis by Albert Goldman Akro-Mils Storage Bin Annie Hall Primus Interstellar Drum Derby Nick Cave Blog Nick Cave Interview with Stephen Colbert Adolescence King Gizzard & The Wizard Lizard Bridge to Terabithia Bridge to Terabithia (movie) Day of the Doctor Eve power strip I’m gonna live ’til I die Superkey tabToWindow iOS Control Center Raising Arizona Taskmaster The Actor’s Studio Stars Chronicling MacWhisper Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Merlin 06:44 Mental Health Corner 09:38 Sleep and Medication Challenges 29:21 Sponsor: Incogni 31:35 Work and Personal Struggles 42:09 Navigating Corporate Challenges 42:56 Exploring New Opportunities 44:04 The Impact of Frequent Management Changes 46:18 Mental and Emotional Health 47:40 Finding Joy in Small Things 51:35 Nick Cave’s Blog and Grief 01:08:16 The Power of Vulnerability 01:14:28 Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba 01:17:10 Bridge to Christina 01:27:05 The Emotional Struggle of Engagement 01:27:36 Questioning the Value of Awareness 01:28:18 The Futility of Constant Sadness 01:28:42 Philosophical Reflections on Life and Action 01:29:34 The Dangers of Over-Engagement 01:30:35 The Importance of a Balanced Approach 01:31:47 Transition to GrAPPtitude 01:34:01 Tech Tips and Recommendations 01:47:35 The Value of Control Center Customization 01:59:31 Final Thoughts and Gratitude Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript You’re Not Invulnerable [00:00:00] Introduction and Welcoming Merlin [00:00:00] [00:00:06] Brett: Oh my God, this is Overtired. Welcome, everybody. Welcome. Um, I am here. I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Jeff Severns Guntzel and Christina Warren and [00:00:17] Christina: And [00:00:17] Brett: guest Merlin Mann. One of our favorites. Merlin. How’s it going? [00:00:21] Merlin: It is going great and you’re one of my favorites. I love doing this show. He [00:00:25] Jeff: Oh [00:00:25] Christina: Yay. [00:00:26] Merlin: Christina. Rarely Danes to show up when I’m here, which feels important to me. [00:00:30] Brett: Um, [00:00:31] Merlin: We used to be friends. I remember that. [00:00:33] Brett: two weeks ago we told everybody that we were gonna have an author that I was very excited about on, uh, last week. And then within about an hour before the show started, Jeff said he had food poisoning and couldn’t do it. [00:00:50] Merlin: Oh [00:00:51] Brett: And then right before the show started, Christina said, I have like a, a stomach virus. [00:00:58] Brett: And [00:01:00] so I show up, I show up and [00:01:01] Merlin: sit down? Christina? My friend, my friend, my friend, uh, from college, from Alabama would always say, I gotta go sit down. [00:01:10] Christina: Yeah. I had to sit down for a while. It was, it was, it was. It was. It was. It was real. Not fun. It was [00:01:14] Merlin: What a great phrase. [00:01:15] Brett: So I show up and Corey shows up and I’m like, we can do this recording. Just you and me? No, it’s, his name is Corey O’Brien. [00:01:25] Merlin: Corey O’Brien. [00:01:26] Brett: He is, he’s an author. He’s a, he’s a, he’s now a cyberpunk author. He is a sci-fi author. But, um, he opted, he said he wanted to do Overtired in its true form with all three of us. So we rescheduled. [00:01:42] Brett: That’s still up and coming, but this week we have Merlin, which is as good, if not better. [00:01:51] Merlin: Uhhuh. You, you, are you, you’re John Ming. Me a little bit. [00:01:55] Jeff: you Motting? Me? You know Cory Drow? Whenever I hear that name, I feel like 25 years [00:02:00] younger. [00:02:00] Merlin: I know, I do. I do too. Oh, he was, God Bo was such a, had such a big influence on me, and they basically, Corey, Corey and Andy Bayo are the people I personally feel the most gratitude for, for like promoting my website when it came out. If it wasn’t for Corey, I don’t know. He’s an interesting character. That guy. [00:02:20] Merlin: He’s got, he’s got strong opinions. [00:02:22] Jeff: He does have strong opinions. [00:02:24] Christina: He’s still quite in new terms. I mean, I hear every, and, and it’s weird though because, uh, I wonder if he’s annoyed if he’s as annoyed by am I am by how many people use in ification the wrong way. Like it’s just become shorthand for people don’t like something. [00:02:36] Merlin: Mm-hmm. [00:02:37] Jeff: he coin? Did he coin? Everything’s computer. Sorry. I really love that. [00:02:43] Merlin: still say Wfi a lot. [00:02:45] Jeff: Wafi. [00:02:45] Christina: good. [00:02:46] Merlin: Yeah. I still say that a lot. I think that was from his Magic Kingdom book. [00:02:50] Jeff: Oh yeah. Loved some Disneyland. [00:02:52] Merlin: Was it? Down, down in Mountain, the Magic Kingdom. [00:02:54] Jeff: Yeah. [00:02:54] Christina: That was good. [00:02:55] Merlin: Well, I’m not an author. I’m the furthest thing from an author, but, um, I’m happy to be here [00:03:00] to, to fill time and I just wanna hear how y’all are doing Well. Did I try, I [00:03:07] Brett: I, I enjoyed, I enjoyed reading you writing about not writing, [00:03:11] Christina: Yes, [00:03:12] Jeff: Hmm. [00:03:13] Merlin: work. [00:03:14] Jeff: It’s still writing. [00:03:16] Merlin: Yeah. I, someday I wanna do a full, a full series of something, either written thing or probably a podcast thing about the things in life. We don’t get to choose top of the list. You don’t get to choose your trauma. If we could all pick our traumas, we’d have cooler traumas, sexual fetishes. [00:03:30] Merlin: If we get to pick our own sexual [00:03:31] Jeff: traumas. [00:03:32] Merlin: we don’t have much cooler traumas and much cooler sexual fetishes. These are not things we get to choose. We, we find ourselves having them in dealing with [00:03:39] Jeff: trying to think of what a, like, I’m trying to think of a cool trauma. I would want. What, what would you choose? [00:03:43] Merlin: Oh, geez. I mean, I don’t, I I, would we be stealing valor to even talk about that? [00:03:48] Christina: Mm. No, I mean, well, um, I think it depends on the trauma [00:03:53] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [00:03:55] Jeff: Yeah. I did just open a giant trap door and ask everybody to [00:03:58] Christina: I know, I, I, I know what valor [00:04:00] I would [00:04:00] Merlin: should check [00:04:00] Jeff: without first dropping a dime down to hear how deep it was. [00:04:04] Merlin: Oh, that I see. The water’s cold and deep. [00:04:06] Christina: Yeah. I think I know what I would steal. [00:04:09] Merlin: Um, hey, Christina, if you could pick your trauma and it would be cooler than whatever you’re working with now, what trauma do you suppose you would consider picking? [00:04:17] Christina: Yeah. So I would like want some sort of like, like a parentage, things like, I don’t know who my real parents are. Like I have some sort of weird adoption kind of backstory or something like that. Like that would be [00:04:28] Jeff: Because why? What, what, what would it, so what makes you say [00:04:31] Merlin: If you’re actually raised by, raised by cap barez or something, [00:04:34] Christina: Yeah. I just think it would be more interesting. [00:04:35] Christina: Like, I just like, I just think it would be more interesting And you would [00:04:38] Merlin: parents suck. [00:04:39] Christina: right, well, yeah, well, and my mine kind of don’t, so like that would kind of be like a like, like, like, right. Exactly. So like, it’s nice, but it’s also kinda like, eh, so would, there would be like a part of it, be like, oh, I can like bitch about how bad my mom is because I never really knew my real mom because I was abandoned, because I have all these issues of not being good enough and like, [00:04:56] Jeff: and you know what? [00:04:57] Christina: do? [00:04:57] Christina: I do. I live up to this like ideal that I was adopted into [00:05:00] and all that. That would be [00:05:01] Jeff: and if that life was a song, you would go, son. She said, have I got a little story for you who you thought was your daddy? [00:05:12] Merlin: wait. Is that, am I getting that right? [00:05:15] Jeff: It’s [00:05:15] Merlin: I’m either throat singing or doing Eddie Veder [00:05:23] Jeff: We got that out of our system. [00:05:24] Merlin: with a surprise. [00:05:29] Jeff: Oh my God. I [00:05:29] Brett: So. [00:05:31] Jeff: I gotta, I wanna keep going. I wanna keep going. [00:05:34] Brett: With, oh, don’t make me edit. Um, [00:05:40] Merlin: wanna make work for you. I’ve recently started editing a podcast and like I, I, I, I treasure how little work I put into it. People edit too much. Just edit. [00:05:50] Brett: well, I agree with that. I, uh, we, we don’t, we used to, I used to edit more, um, and be more, um, [00:06:00] anal about ums and ahs and misspeaks and, and I just, that’s natural. It’s like [00:06:08] Merlin: you cut all of that [00:06:09] Brett: don’t tune into us for a tight, [00:06:11] Merlin: maybe it’s not a podcast that you want. If you don’t like that, maybe that’s not, you know, maybe what you want is NPR. [00:06:17] Brett: Right. [00:06:18] Jeff: Oh, you know, when I worked for, um, American Public Media, I worked with an amazing reporter and producer, and I sat in a booth with her while she grabbed the tea sound from another part of an interview and inserted it into the word that a person had spoken. And that [00:06:33] Brett: I don’t want to do [00:06:34] Jeff: that is all the way down the road. [00:06:35] Jeff: Yeah. [00:06:36] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:37] Brett: So we’ve kind of already touched on a place that we know, we all know we’re going. Mental Health Corner [00:06:44] Brett: Um, but that’s the, uh, the mental health corner. We can make this, we can make [00:06:49] Merlin: Have a song for it or [00:06:50] Brett: last time I was here, we have talked about, we have talked about, I. I’ve always wanted like martini hour music for this, um, like a real [00:07:00] 1950s shrink office kind of thing. [00:07:02] Merlin: like a maybe, like, you know, uh, yeah, like I’m, I’m thinking like a, like a, like a, you know, Jo kinda like, [00:07:09] Brett: So historically when we do this with Merlin, it ends up being two hours out of a two hour and 15 minute podcast. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna do our best to like, have other topics, but we don’t have to because that’s part of the reason we bring Melin [00:07:25] Merlin: people, some people would say that you’re passive aggressive. I wouldn’t say that. [00:07:29] Christina: Some people would say. [00:07:30] Merlin: Wouldn’t say, if it pleases you to be like that, I, of course, I’ll just do, do whatever you want, man. Wow. Wow. We learned so much guessing on a podcast in a web browser. [00:07:41] Brett: so Merlin, how’s your mental health? [00:07:43] Merlin: Good. How about you guys? [00:07:46] Jeff: Pass the talking stick. [00:07:48] Merlin: Um, good, good, good, good. I, uh, I’m always, um, uh, not always I’m, I, I’m trying to make a distinction that might seem, [00:08:00] uh, sort of, it’s early here. It might seem like, like sort of an unnecessary distinction, but, uh, I, I, I, I do like to distinguish between what I call mental health and what I would call emotional health. [00:08:09] Merlin: I’m saying that like I’m some kind of like a revolutionary therapist that just invented that distinction. It’s just that in the day to day of people talking about this, the phrase I hear a lot is mental health. And I don’t know why I. I, I like, I, I think I do know why I like the distinction. I think emotional health and mental health are worth thinking about and looking at separately. [00:08:34] Merlin: And like, just in terms of my own confession about that, it’s like, I have to admit when I hear mental health, I think of things like further on down the spectrum of like the sort of chemical issues that some of us have to some extent or another, all the way down to the chemical issues that some of my dear friends have that make their life nearly unlivable. [00:08:51] Merlin: I think of those kinds of things, emotional health, boy, that that’s, that’s the key for me. How am I managing stuff in [00:09:00] life and how am I managing, or how am I experiencing to, to use a word, word, I don’t like to use that way, but how am I experiencing my emotions and how, what effect is that having, because as tight as your mental health might be, if you’re not managing your emotional health well, and, and I’m, I’m not even saying that’s kinda like pushing a rope. [00:09:18] Merlin: Like it’s hard, like how do you, you know, decide to feel a certain way, but, uh, it’s, it’s all pretty okay. Considering as always, I’m working on sleep as always. I’m, I’m trying to work on like, you know, just a, a lot of stuff. I don’t want it to be two hours long if you don’t go into any aspect, I could do an hour on any aspect of it, but let’s just say I’m fine. Sleep and Medication Challenges [00:09:38] Brett: Well, since this is Overtired, tell me how sleep’s going. [00:09:41] Merlin: Good. Um, we were talking before about, um, [00:09:45] Brett: I. [00:09:46] Merlin: um, me medicine things and, uh, pharmaceutical things, and in summary, probably something I’ve said each time I’ve been on is I, I always find it so challenging to balance all these different things. My mom as ever, is going through kind of a health [00:10:00] thing right now, and she’s always kind of my poster child for this, where like, once you’re on Coumadin, once you’re on blood thinners, everything gets complicated and there’s no more easy fixes for anything because everything ends up being slightly connected, related [00:10:14] Brett: Mm-hmm. [00:10:14] Merlin: uh, consequential to other parts of your physical health. [00:10:19] Merlin: So, so for me, uh, that’s always been a balance. I was telling Brett that, uh, I have high blood pressure and so they took me off. So I used to be on real A DHD drugs and then eventually my rinku, my love put me on a Vyvanse, which is fine. Then after the blood pressure stuff, guess what? Abundance of caution. [00:10:43] Merlin: We need to make sure I can’t, I can’t responsibly hand you anything that has anything with good salts in it if it could cause you to have a stroke or a heart attack. So then I’ve just been on pilot medicine, which is useless, uh, Modafinil, like the stuff they give people with work shift disorder [00:10:59] Brett: [00:11:00] Narcolepsy. Yeah. [00:11:00] Jeff: Trucker speed. [00:11:01] Merlin: It’s not, I wish it was trucker speed. It’s, no, it’s really just what they give it all. What it does is it helps you not fall asleep without giving you precisely any like, super amount of energy. Plus, it makes me, I want to point out a distinction within a distinction, uh, as drunk and white have told us, feeling nauseous and feeling nauseated are different things. [00:11:27] Christina: Correct. [00:11:28] Merlin: Okay? I just want you to remember that. ’cause I’m like that. And this is what I live for, these distinctions. ’cause life matters, but also being nauseated is not the same thing as throwing up, being nauseated is feeling like you have to throw up. These things make me throw up almost every day that I take them. [00:11:43] Merlin: And I’ve gotten used to it and it’s not a big deal, but they, they really don’t agree with me. Uh, anyway, um, last week I got back on Vyvanse and the nice thing about that is, and Vyvanse is a, as these things go up pretty benign, A-D-H-D-I could look it up. It’s like there’s basically two [00:12:00] kinds of [00:12:01] Brett: Yeah, it’s, [00:12:02] Merlin: speed. [00:12:02] Merlin: There’s, [00:12:03] Brett: the one, it’s, [00:12:05] Christina: but it, but it, it has, uh, it, the way that [00:12:07] Merlin: is it, I don’t think it. [00:12:08] Christina: is [00:12:09] Brett: Vyvanse is in the same class as Adderall, but it’s, uh, it’s got like one molecule removed [00:12:14] Christina: Yeah. It has. Yeah. It, yeah, it has one, one different removal. It, but it, but it’s the same core thing. It’s the same as, as, uh, d arine or, or dexo, whatever, you know, which is like the oldest type type, type of amphetamine, but they have one less molecule, and the way that it, it absorbs in your body is this different, and it has to have like water. [00:12:30] Christina: Like you can’t just like the way it’s supposed to be designed, you can’t just snort it. You can’t snort it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s part of why it was designed. And the other reason was frankly for, um, uh, patent extension. Um, and, and the patent, the patent expired like two [00:12:43] Merlin: The delivery mechanism, you know, for your nex VM or whatever. Anyhow, uh, and that, that has been, I think, a boon, uh, in a quarter of a dozen ways where, uh, for one, uh, it doesn’t really do that much for me, but the [00:13:00] prospect of saying like, okay, I’m gonna get up. And I, and again, the balance, right? I, I can’t take it. [00:13:04] Merlin: I shorten to take it at 11:00 AM because for whatever reason it has effects on me. I’m grinding, I’m kind of grinding my teeth at like nine o’clock or [00:13:12] Brett: Yeah. As a, as a 16 hour half life. [00:13:16] Christina: Yep. [00:13:16] Merlin: So I, what I do is if I get up to urinate, I take it early, but this is gonna sound weird, but like, I used to really look forward to taking Adderall, um, because it had a huge impact on my ability to feel like I’m running my life. [00:13:30] Merlin: It had side effects too, but that helps. So it ends up being this omnibus project with saying, well, if I want to feel the way I’d like to feel tomorrow, follow me. ’cause this is really, really dopey third grade kind of stuff. If I wanna feel the way I, I. De minimus level of functioning Tomorrow, I’ll, I’ll take a Vyvanse. [00:13:51] Merlin: So when are you gonna take a Vyvanse? I need to take a Vyvanse pretty goddamn early. Like what, like 10 or 11? Nah, earlier, like I could take it as early as four and like [00:14:00] I can still sleep. But I’m looking forward to that because then I’m thinking when I wake up, I’m already, I’ve got one in the chamber and I’m like, okay, let’s do this. [00:14:09] Merlin: I don’t know, it’s, you know, we sometimes, especially with children, I feel like we try to create, and this is way too big for this topic, but we try to create all these, uh, systems of, of fear and guilt and, and shame and all the things that make a kid do the right thing because they don’t wanna feel shame. [00:14:27] Merlin: Um, and like as you get older, you can realize, well, I also have ways to motivate myself. It requires a certain amount of bifurcated self in some ways. The same way that the, the, the one in the morning me is different from the 5:00 AM me and that kind of stuff. But long story short, it, I think I now I have more incentive to try something I wanted to do anyway, which is getting to bed a, a little earlier and BA little more around the same regular time. And that helps me, [00:14:55] Brett: Yeah, I, so I take Vyvanse for very much the same [00:15:00] reasons you are currently on Vyvanse. Um, what was the one we used to take? Both of us were on it. [00:15:08] Merlin: speedy one or we were, we’ve both been on, am I allowed to talk about [00:15:12] Brett: No, there was another A DHD Med. [00:15:16] Merlin: oh, um, see, there was Adderall and wasn’t Concerta. It was, um, I was, I was on Ritalin for a time in the early days. [00:15:24] Brett: it’s another one. [00:15:25] Merlin: Is it a prescription one? [00:15:26] Brett: Yeah, it’s in the same category as Ritalin. I forget now. But anyway, like they, they said that was too bad for my blood pressure. And um, so they put me on Vyvanse and then they lowered my Vyvanse dose when I started having insomnia again. Um, and that didn’t actually help my insomnia, but because like I was functioning on the lower dose, they kept me on the lower dose. [00:15:51] Christina: on the lower one. Yeah. [00:15:52] Merlin: Yeah. [00:15:53] Brett: I have a whole, I have a half a bottle left of the higher dose, and every once in a while, if I know [00:16:00] it’s gonna be a rough day, [00:16:01] Merlin: Oh, I was the same way. I had, I [00:16:02] Brett: I’ll take the [00:16:03] Merlin: I had three that I found in a bag for travel. Um, and I’ve been off it for, just so we’re clear here, we’re talking about two years, two years of, if I sometimes don’t seem as sharp, it’s because I’m 58. And also because like, I’m just, just, you know, I’m just drinking coffee and trying to say something smart. [00:16:22] Merlin: And it’s not, it’s, it’s not always, uh, nobody cares, but it’s not always, you know, so easy. Um, but uh. It’s such, it’s all such a balance. And ultimately, again, we’re the project manager for those things. And, you know, you don’t want to, uh, you don’t wanna burn too bright and too fast. And it’s, I don’t know, it’s, I I’m not, I don’t have anything smart to say about it. [00:16:45] Merlin: Uh, I I, I keep thinking of a book that I read that I’m not recommending this book, not at least, because it’s very, it’s outta print, difficult to find and full of, um, falsehoods, but it is a good read. And that is Albert Goldman’s biography of Elvis Presley. [00:16:59] Jeff: Oh [00:16:59] Christina: Okay.[00:17:00] [00:17:00] Merlin: Okay. And Albert Goldman was this, I mean, one doesn’t say fabulous, but, but he was not above enhancing details of accounts that happened. [00:17:11] Christina: Which, which means his books must be really fun. [00:17:14] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah. And the Elvis one is great. It starts out brilliantly. I finally found, I’ve been telling my kid about it before he could talk, and finally I found a used copy and bought it and it was like, I gotta read the first chapter of this. ’cause the first chapter is so great. It’s Elvis circa 76, 77, getting ready to go on stage at one of his wackadoo shows where he does, you know, I wish I was, that’s trilogy at the end and all that. [00:17:38] Merlin: Uh, and it’s, you know, it’s not nice to say, but for the young people, it’s fat Elvis. This is like in the time before he died, and the Descript of the drug regimen that he had before he would go on stage really just to get his day going. And you’ve probably all heard this, I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s a controlling metaphor for me in some ways. [00:17:56] Merlin: Elvis gets strapped into his corset. He has received [00:18:00] barbiturates, he has res, he received uppers, he has received downers, he’s received vitamin shots of many different kind. He gets double air quotes there. He gets vitamin shots of all different kinds. He gets, I think, laxatives and um, and stop pooping pills. [00:18:15] Merlin: He got like seventies and odium title, [00:18:17] Jeff: cover your bases. [00:18:19] Merlin: cover all your bases, including home, if you know what I mean. But I think about that sometimes where like, and, and forgive my saying, Brett, I wonder if this is something. Folks who’ve been through what you’ve been through over the years, go through where you’re like, oh, I gotta have this to do that. [00:18:35] Merlin: And then I have gotta have this to this to fit. It’s like, uh, chemical Tetris where you’re like, and then I’ve gotta get this to there, but if I have too much of that, but I gotta bring that down and if I have this kind of alcohol instead of that kind of alcohol, maybe I’ll feel better. And like you do all these weird combinations of things. [00:18:48] Merlin: All this basically like personal witch doctoring, um, to, to try and get yourself to something that feels like homeostasis plus, you know? And, uh, that’s how I feel [00:19:00] sometimes, even when I’m just like, oh God, I gotta get up and take the goddamn thing that makes me throw up. And then I can’t really drink coffee. [00:19:06] Merlin: ’cause then I’ll just throw up the coffee and I’m sorry this is gross, but I just wanna give you the picture of what you all probably go through in your own way, which is like trying to find the balance, the combination, the um, the, the internal sort of integrity of a system that helps you be close enough to who you wanna be sometimes are better than ours. [00:19:27] Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:19:29] Brett: yeah. Well, and for me, I like, I don’t use illicit drugs anymore. Um, but as far as like the combination I’m on. No fewer than seven prescription medications. Um, and I do drink alcohol and I do mushrooms. And, um, one slight change in any part of that system can lead to, uh, [00:20:00] things collapsing. And it is, um, it, yeah, it’s a juggling [00:20:05] Merlin: sometimes, if I could say at least for myself, I speak for myself, you don’t know how long that collapse is gonna be for. Like sometimes you’re just like, you had an up cwc and it’s gonna be one of those days. Um, I mean I do, I do stuff like, this is, I’m so weird. I, when I make, I make a monthly set of pill packs. [00:20:20] Merlin: When I get my, uh, my drugs every month, I use these little wasteful plastic bags and I do all my pills for like a month so that I can have this. And this is, this is so, I don’t know something. But I finally have gotten to where, when I take the drug bump, I record that I took them and date ’em. And then I do a strange thing, which is kind of related to a thing I do with leftovers, which is I write the day of the week on the bag so that when I throw it away, if I have this panicky feeling later, did I, did I take these twice? [00:20:51] Merlin: Did I take the, I like, I’m probably the only person in the world that has this, but I get panicky. I’m like, I can’t have this much Gabapentin, I can’t have double the amount of [00:21:00] gabapentin. That’s not wholesome. [00:21:01] Jeff: Mm-hmm. [00:21:01] Merlin: You know, I we’re not double the propanolol. That’s fine. I could [00:21:05] Brett: Have you ever accidentally doubled your Vyvanse? That is a horrible [00:21:10] Merlin: I don’t, I mean, I, I certainly have doubled something in the past accidentally. Um, [00:21:17] Brett: I did it once, once in recent me [00:21:20] Merlin: dosed, like you got dosed. Like, you’re like, well, I’m just gonna have to ride this thing out. Like, go where it takes me. [00:21:26] Brett: yeah. My partner has taken to, uh, fill, you know, there’s like pill containers with the day of the [00:21:33] Christina: days. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. [00:21:34] Brett: and, and l fills those in for me every week because I tend to fall behind. And then I just get into, I, I know what I need to take, I’ll just take it. [00:21:44] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:21:45] Brett: I generally do a good job of recording it in my apps, but I do have that same panic thing where like, I’m not sure I took it and maybe I, maybe I did take it and [00:21:55] Merlin: Well then start thinking, did I take three? Like if you’re like me, and let’s get to the, from the [00:22:00] emotional to the mental. I don’t know which one this is, but sometimes it’ll just be like, did I just space this and, and do something? And I feel like, um, like the way Maria Bamford so wonderfully talks about having OCD and that, that feeling of like, I’m gonna push somebody onto the subway tracks. [00:22:13] Merlin: I’m probably a sex criminal. Those ideas that go around your head, I sometimes think I, then I panic and I’m like, well, how many have I had? And like, it sounds so weird, but like it’s, you know, anyways, bags [00:22:25] Jeff: So, wait, I have a system question at what, how much overlap is there between the end of the bags and the, and the filling of the next month? Or do you do it right as they run out? You just have a system, you start it. [00:22:38] Merlin: Well, these are, these are things I take at night that are mostly sleep related. Um, so there’s not that usual running right up against it of, with say, Adderall, where it’s like you, you’re there at like 9:01 AM because like, that’s when you’re allowed to have it and you, you feel like you’re, you know, you’re on probation or something. [00:22:58] Merlin: Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:00] No, th those, those work out okay. [00:23:01] Christina: like the individual’s date on each bag? [00:23:04] Merlin: no, no, no. They’re all identical and I just, uh, I just drop ’em in. Take a big drink. All good. [00:23:10] Christina: the, the reason I ask is because I, ’cause I’ve done this thing where like I’ll just space where I’m like. Um, did I just take my pills and, and I, I won’t, I’m like, did I, did I, did I just do that or not? And then I’ll have to go back and like count and then I’ll have to [00:23:24] Merlin: Oh, no, no, no. That’s madness. [00:23:26] Jeff: in the bottle. [00:23:27] Christina: agree. I agree with you. I agree with you. What I’m saying though is that my fear would be that if I put them in the backs, I could still have that moment where I’d be like, did I just take that? Did, did I just [00:23:36] Merlin: that’s why I write the day of the week on it. [00:23:38] Christina: Okay. Well, well, that’s why I was asking. So you, you put [00:23:40] Merlin: I mean, I mean after, no, after I’ve taken it there. So mine are all identical. Okay. This is how dumb I am and how dumb I encourage everyone to be. I’m gonna say two things and then I’m [00:23:48] Jeff: How dumb are you? [00:23:49] Merlin: I’m so dumb. Are you ready for this? Dumb Donald? I need one of those, one of those Gene Rayburn stick microphones. [00:23:57] Merlin: Um, dumb. Donald was [00:24:00] so dumb. Um, I make these whatever, 28 or whatever these, and I stick ’em in a little Aiken Mills, you know, Equa Mills bin, whatever that [00:24:08] Jeff: Oh, yeah. It’s a wonderful [00:24:10] Merlin: are great companies. Yeah, great containers. And, um, but no, so I’ve started because, and you know, I won’t need to, hopefully I won’t need it is hoped I won’t need to do this for the rest of my life. [00:24:19] Merlin: But after I take these, uh, I should write SAT on this and that sounds dumb. But then I’ll know, like as a double backup and until I get, if, once I get better at that, I won’t do that as much anymore. When I put leftovers in the refrigerator in a little bag, I write the day of the week that I put the leftover. [00:24:36] Merlin: See, you’re all nodding. The listener will not know this. These people are nodding. Nobody in my house is [00:24:41] Brett: Pyrex lids that have a dial where you set it to the day of the week, you put it in the fridge. [00:24:47] Christina: oh, look at you, Mr. Fancy. [00:24:49] Jeff: Yeah. [00:24:50] Merlin: Yeah. Unfortunately, our refrigerator is, uh, is a museum, um, where food is fri where garbage is cooled [00:24:58] Christina: Yes. I was gonna say my, my, [00:25:00] my, my, my, my mine is a thing where like I, my, my, my refrigerator is like great aspirations, both of things that I will cook for myself [00:25:06] Merlin: Sing it, sister. Who’s gonna eat that? Who’s gonna, it’s got carib in it. What, what aspirational food. You’ve gotta be kidding me. It’s like, it’s like buying, it’s like buying like a okas and keeping them in the attic or something. Like, whatcha doing? No, I, no, I love my family, but, uh, I do, I do like to have some, some sense of ease and certainty. [00:25:26] Merlin: You know, a lot of a DHD as, you know, I, as I get older and I spend more time with this, my realizations about it become more and more obvious, which I think is a gift. And, um, you know, one of those things is that when you’re an anxious person, you’re always seeking new information or different information, or saliently updated information. [00:25:45] Merlin: I feel like I’m just speaking generically here. I can’t get anywhere near being in the moment if I’m, if there’s a loose end out there that’s on my mind, and so I keep seeking information. One, keep [00:26:00] seeking information about that loose end, and at least you can feel like the classic Ed Sullivan plate spinning, you could go. [00:26:06] Merlin: Well, I just, I did everything I could to get the, keep these six plates in motion. The plate that was wobbling, I spun that. Now maybe I get five minutes to watch YouTube and not feel like a crazy person. And that is, that is a tough, that’s an anti-pattern in this, I think, if I could say in the sense that it feels like it’s helping, uh, but it’s not necessarily helping. [00:26:28] Merlin: And sometimes I try to learn to incline myself more toward. Certain, like I said, like I’ve said, I, I’ve got this series of things I’d like to say to myself pretty often, like, I’ve got this list I maintain of like, good things to say to yourself to catch yourself and like not go spinning down one sort of hole or an or another. [00:26:49] Merlin: But I think that’s been a tough, I don’t know if, I don’t know if y’all agree, I’d be curious to hear what you think, but do you ever find yourself like becoming aware that the seeking of new and [00:27:00] updated and complete information can become a very unwholesome distraction from just sitting in, in the moment [00:27:05] Christina: Oh yeah. it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a constant struggle that I have, right. Which is like, what am I missing out on? By wanting to be up to date on everything and to like, know as much as possible. Like, am I actually, am I actually understanding a lot of things or am I just like, is [00:27:21] Merlin: like the class, you can’t get outta your inbox [00:27:23] Christina: Right. Well that’s [00:27:23] Merlin: there’s always something in there [00:27:25] Christina: something else there that’s gonna distract you and take you something else. And it’s like, how, how, how, how do I do it? And I, and I, and for what, what, what’s hard for me is that when I was younger, it really did feel easier to be on top of it all. And, and I don’t know if it’s [00:27:38] Merlin: Because you could, you could change gears quicker. [00:27:39] Christina: right. [00:27:40] Christina: Well, and it’s not even, I think it was less that I felt like I just had like more of an ability to just like, maybe, maybe change gears. Maybe that is accurate. But, but I felt like it was more of a, like I, I, I could, um, get more accomplished. Uh, and now I don’t know if it’s an age thing, if, if it’s slower or if it’s just that, [00:27:57] Brett: Or if the world’s sped up. [00:27:59] Christina: or if [00:28:00] I’m trying to just, if, if I’ve, I’ve keep enhancing like the number of things, like I keep adding other things. [00:28:07] Christina: Like it used to be like, this would be one area that I would like try to keep up on, like [00:28:10] Merlin: Well, to, to my analogy, you’ve, you’ve unintentionally added another plate [00:28:14] Christina: right? [00:28:15] Merlin: to spin, [00:28:16] Christina: Yeah. [00:28:17] Jeff: my version of that is, um, it’s kind of like, uh, doing a clean install on your computer, which I used to do, sort of, um, very, um, just out of nowhere I suddenly needed to do a clean install of my computer. And I have this tendency when I’ve gathered a lot of information or have a sense that something’s not quite right, um, to wipe the slate clean and have to build it up from the start. [00:28:39] Jeff: I have a, a much better system for that. Now, putting the computer thing aside, ’cause I, I did realize that that was a, a red flag if I’m doing that, if just some general state, but now what I’ll do is if I have like a drafts file and I’ve just like been, it’s kind an omnibus file and I’ve been keeping all this information as I build the information and I, and I realize I no longer have a hold of it, I just open up a [00:29:00] second window and I start building it, um, from scratch with the messier version next to it. [00:29:05] Jeff: Um, and then [00:29:07] Merlin: takes so many years to get to where you can be comfortable doing that. It really, it really does. [00:29:12] Jeff: yeah, yeah, [00:29:14] Brett: I am, uh, I’m gonna throw in, I’m gonna throw in a sponsor read right here, if that’s all right with everybody. [00:29:20] Christina: Do it. 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[00:30:14] Brett: I’ve been using incog for, uh. Uh, at least a year now, maybe longer. And my, uh, my spam phone calls, my spam emails, everything has been reduced. Um, searching for myself on the internet no longer reveals my, like, home address, things like that. Um, I have, according to Incog, been taken off of about 200 lists at this point. [00:30:39] Brett: Um, so I’m, I’m a big fan. You can get an individual account for yourself or with Incog Me’s Family and Friends Plan, you can extend the same robust protection to up to four additional members. This means your entire family or close circle can benefit from Incog vigilant data removal and monitoring service, providing peace of mind for everyone.[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Brett: Take control of your digital privacy now. Visit incog.com/ Overtired and secure your data today. Sign up and enjoy a 30 day money back guarantee. Protect your privacy with incog and experience peace of mind, knowing your personal information is safe. [00:31:17] Brett: Take your personal data back with incog. Use code Overtired at the link in the show notes or visit incog.com/ Overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. That’s I-N-C-O-G-N i.com/ Overtired. Back to you. Work and Personal Struggles [00:31:35] Christina: Um, all right, Brett, do you, do you wanna, do you wanna talk next, like about some, like your, uh, mental health corner stuff? [00:31:42] Brett: Yeah. Well, my, my mental health is heavily, um, centers around a recent reorg at Oracle. Um, and because I wanna, I, I don’t want to talk too much about that. I will make that my mental health corner. Um, [00:32:00] I, uh, a little over a week ago, my manager said, Hey, you got a sec. And I, we zoomed and he informed me that I was no longer on his team. [00:32:13] Brett: I was on the team of someone I had never met with a bunch of people I had never met, doing things that I was not hired to do. And, um, looking around, it happened to. At our entire division, like everyone under our VP and like three SVPs, were all just shuffled, kind of randomly, um, into areas that we weren’t trained for and weren’t familiar with. [00:32:43] Brett: And everyone, and then you, like, you’re trying to get trained on something, so you ask who to talk to and nobody knows anymore because the person who did that job isn’t doing that job anymore and I can’t get access to the things I need to because I’m not [00:33:00] on the right, I’m not in the right department anymore, and it is a cluster fuck. [00:33:06] Brett: And I, I have some personal, uh, personality issues with my team, um, that I am working through, but every time I like talk myself down and say like, you gotta not read into that. You gotta give ’em the benefit of the doubt. Then I talk to them again and it just gets reignited. And so much like passive aggressive behavior and power struggles and it has not been fun. [00:33:33] Brett: It has really warmed me down and I’ve been in like a state of kind of panic about what do I do without this job because it just doesn’t seem tenable. Um. Last, the last couple days. And because I took an increased dose of Vyvanse, one of those days, I found myself way more able to, uh, navigate this new and terrifying world. [00:33:58] Brett: Um, and I’m [00:34:00] going to talk to my doctor about, maybe let’s go back up, because that was really helpful. Um, but I, I’ve been losing sleep. I’ve been, uh, in a state of panic and l has been out of town, so they can’t help me like regulate all. I’m, I’m a very emotional person and stuff like this makes me very, um, I just cycled through like anger and despair and panic and, um, with even occasional euphoria when something seems like it’s gonna work out. [00:34:33] Brett: And then, and it’s been exhausting [00:34:37] Jeff: Yeah, [00:34:37] Brett: also. Stupid. Why, [00:34:39] Jeff: chaotic. [00:34:40] Brett: why would you, this all happened because one person left to go to Amazon [00:34:48] Jeff: That’s a hell of a, that’s a hell [00:34:49] Christina: so, so, so they just [00:34:50] Merlin: it, makes it sound like a, not a very durable, not a very durable team, [00:34:54] Jeff: not a very durable system. [00:34:55] Brett: well let’s, uh, instead of replacing this one guy at the top, let’s [00:35:00] just shuffle everybody underneath them across the organization. [00:35:05] Christina: Was it a power struggle was were like people wanting to get like control of some other things. Like, so the headcount would be like, oh, I want this. I mean, [00:35:12] Brett: I’m not privy to the T around all of that partly ’cause I just don’t, I don’t care. Um, I, I care about my job and where I land, but it’s at some point, one of my managers made me an M four, which at Oracle comes with a whole host of responsibilities. They gave it to me because they wanted me to have, uh, room to, to expand my salary. [00:35:39] Brett: Um, and I was at like the, the cap for an M three. Um, but they, they never made a big deal out of that because I never got the raise A and, and b it was kind of a symbolic thing. Uh, but now my new manager’s like, oh, you’re an M four and I haven’t seen, I don’t see in your work record that [00:36:00] you’ve been meeting everything on this, uh, what do they call it? [00:36:05] Brett: That she sent me this, like PDF that had a chart of like expectations for the different levels. And, and she doesn’t see that I have fulfilled my requirements to be an M four, so she’s gonna expect more out of me. And I’m like, you know, I haven’t seen a raise in three years. So if we, if we can talk about a raise, I’ll talk about being an M four, but [00:36:31] Christina: right. So, so, so, so, so they gave you the promo because you were at the, the, the top of the cap on the other thing. And presumably you would get better bonuses, um, and, and, and other stuff there and, and better stock compensation there. That’s usually how it works. But they didn’t give you, uh, a salary bump. [00:36:46] Christina: They just gave you the new title. [00:36:48] Brett: Yeah. [00:36:48] Christina: That’s fucked man. [00:36:50] Brett: Yeah. Um, and I, so like the thing that keeps me sane is thinking about going India again and just being [00:37:00] my own boss and working on things I love and doing things I care about. And, um, I kind of failed at that last time around. I did, I ended up with a lot of debt and, um, things got rough and it was, I was really grateful to get the corporate gig, uh, at that point. [00:37:21] Brett: And like I have this rose tinted view of what it’s like to be an indie dev, but also I know I’m not good at like, the business side of things and I don’t I what I want. So, okay. I’m sorry. This is getting longer than I planned for it to. But, um, in going through the training for some of my new job roles, I had to shadow the people who previously had those roles and watching them work and the sheer level of incompetence and inefficiency was killing me, [00:38:00] um, in the first [00:38:01] Merlin: and that was presented, that was presented as something you should model. They could, they could, they could be the pros from Dover and come in and say, Hey, you know, I used to be like you. I had this job. I learned all kinds of things. But when they would like, demonstrate those skills, they were not impressive. [00:38:16] Brett: They were terrible. Like I couldn’t believe one of these people had been doing it for like four years and within two hours of being given access to their tools, I had cut the hours down to about 10% of what they were spending on it. Um, and like, but what I [00:38:34] Merlin: like, it’s like the guy, it’s like the guy in Idiocracy who’s gotta take the specs to the engineers. I know that that’s a cliche, but isn’t there an element of that sometimes where you’re like, wait a minute, how, how much of your job was this one thing that I could do? [00:38:47] Brett: Yeah. So what I realized though is that’s the job I want, is to go in and tell people how to do their jobs better and then leave. Yeah, I wanna leave them [00:39:00] to do the work, but me, I’ll just make their work suck less. And I just want to be an efficiency expert consultant that goes, especially in publishing, um, workflows that goes in, uh, gives you, you know, 20% savings or on hours or company expenses and then moves on to the next company and gets paid bank to do it. [00:39:24] Brett: Um, like that’s, if I could carve out a dream job right now, I think that’s what I would do. And thinking about that keeps me sane. [00:39:34] Jeff: I, the M three and the M four are both guns. Um, and [00:39:39] Brett: Also Max, [00:39:40] Christina: I was gonna say, I know them as Max because I’m not a [00:39:42] Jeff: Right, right, right. And, and [00:39:44] Christina: my mind goes. [00:39:45] Jeff: Just to, [00:39:46] Christina: Or BMWs. [00:39:46] Jeff: I don’t know. [00:39:47] Merlin: Uh, I’m packing an M four Ultra, if you know what I mean. [00:39:49] Jeff: Yes and to introduce Levi Di that may, may be disapproved of, ’cause it’s a comedian that I’m not supposed to quote, but this bit’s so good. [00:39:58] Merlin: Lucy K. Lucy. [00:39:59] Christina: Yeah. [00:39:59] Jeff: [00:40:00] Allen. Woody Allen even, you know, even worse. Well, and actually I think this bit, okay, so the bit was, he was, he was classified four p by the draft board, which means in the case of war, he is most likely to be taken hostage. [00:40:13] Christina: Yep. [00:40:13] Jeff: And so all these things are going through my head, even though I, even as I break my heart breaks for you, Brett, because I know, I know your core and I, I remember working with you when you came onto the project I was working on and, and how beautiful it was to just like articulate a, a problem to you and then you go away and you come back with such a, like, somehow sensitive solution, which is how a lot of your, how a lot of your tools are, they’re just very sensitive and, and, and humane. [00:40:39] Jeff: Um, and, and it, it’s always killed me. Since you went to Oracle though, I very much understand why you’re there. Um, that, that part of you can’t possibly be recognized, um, or valued if it was recognized or understood somehow. Right. [00:40:53] Brett: so a team. A team, an article that I don’t work on and didn’t at the time, um, [00:41:00] they heard through. The grapevine that I was good at, like markdown and scripting [00:41:07] Jeff: this. Yeah. This is a good example of something different. [00:41:10] Brett: and they came to me and they asked me to automate the process of converting Confluence documentation to, uh, GitHub flavored markdown. [00:41:20] Brett: And I loved that project. I, [00:41:23] Jeff: hired you. [00:41:23] Brett: I spent, I spent maybe 20 hours on that project. They said I saved them over a thousand hours of, of time they would’ve spent on this. Um, and then they shared that solution with other docs teams. So that number went up exponentially. But when my review came around, I didn’t get to list that because it was technically unauthorized time at my job that I, that I spent doing something that was very beneficial to the company, but that I was, it wasn’t part of my job Descript, um, which kinda killed me, [00:42:00] but [00:42:01] Christina: Is there, and that, and that’s such a, that’s such bullshit. I remember when you told me it is just such a terrible like. Navigating Corporate Challenges [00:42:09] Christina: Way the system works, um, in, in these corporate, you know, things about what you’re rewarded for and what you’re not. Um, are there any other teams like I think that the consulting I, I think, I think is great and I’m glad that’s kind of keeping you sane. [00:42:21] Christina: ’cause I think that’s a thing to think about because I think maybe if you found like a right partner or somebody to work with on that, like that could be like a real opportunity, um, for you to frankly even like work at, or, you know, Oracle as a potential, as a potential client. You know, there are like a lot of avenues, places you could, but before you get to that point, I mean, they keep reorging you and, and making changes to you. [00:42:42] Christina: And that’s so shitty, especially when you’re being told, oh, you’re not meeting these expectations. Expectations, but you might not even have been told what they are. And two, when you’re not being compensated, um, uh, in a way that that makes you want to, you know, follow whatever they’re, they’re setting out. Exploring New Opportunities [00:42:56] Christina: I’ve, I’ve definitely been there, but I do wonder, like, [00:43:00] you know, you’ve, you’ve met these other teams and you know, some people who’ve done stuff, like, are there any other places that you might be able to go that, that [00:43:07] Brett: Maybe I, I should ask around the, my first year when I actually had managers that I liked and that seemed to care about my success, um, they would keep an eye on other teams and let me know, like, so and so, like, does this and has heard of you and would love to work with you. So if you ever want to switch teams, contact this team. [00:43:31] Brett: Um, so I went through all of those contacts that I had been given my first year. Every one of them was no longer at Oracle. Um, the, the turnover rate is there’s, there’s a quick the churn rate on Oracle and Oracle positions. So I would be starting from scratch looking. So it’s possible. And honestly, it’s gonna be my first avenue. [00:43:55] Brett: I’m not just gonna quit my job and try to be a freelancer again, but,[00:44:00] [00:44:00] Jeff: Woo. [00:44:02] Merlin: I ask, lemme ask a question if I may. The Impact of Frequent Management Changes [00:44:04] Merlin: Um, uh, I’m listening, I’m processing this somewhat phonetically, it’s a little bit outta my depth, but you described how you had a person you work with or for who gave you more responsibility, made you this M four. Is that right? And then so they, they, they, they’ve worked with Brett, they know Brett and in some ways that M four promotion, it would be nice if it had money associated with it, but it was, it was kind of a way of that person saying like, uh, like I trust you and I think you’re great at stuff. [00:44:34] Merlin: And like, we’re, this is the only way you’re gonna move up is like, give you kind of like, I give you [00:44:38] Brett: Yeah, exactly. [00:44:39] Merlin: went and you were an M four for somebody else. And it sounds like they didn’t know you as well probably, and had a specific idea about what an M four does that might be detached from who Brad is. [00:44:51] Christina: Yep. [00:44:52] Merlin: That’s a, that’s worth strikes me as being something worth noting, right? Is that, you know, I mean [00:45:00] there’s so much, uh, economy of scale that people try to derive out of doing things the same way and, you know, company stuff and like, I, I, that all makes sense. I understand that there’s a reason we mow our lawn and rows instead of just spinning the lawnmower around. [00:45:13] Merlin: But, but is that part of the frustration? I wonder, I’m projecting here, but that you go and you’re the same Brett, same title, but different expectations based on what that person needs out of an M four. [00:45:25] Brett: This is my ninth manager in four years. [00:45:29] Jeff: Wow. Wow. [00:45:30] Brett: Yeah. Um, and every time it’s what you describe every time. [00:45:35] Merlin: Somebody, somebody, two levels above that should think that’s weird. [00:45:38] Brett: Yeah. Well, but that’s true for everyone. Everyone I know. [00:45:42] Merlin: should go. How many of these have we [00:45:44] Christina: I mean, I mean, I, I mean I, I, I had 12 managers in five years at Microsoft, so [00:45:47] Merlin: Oh, well, [00:45:48] Jeff: managers [00:45:49] Brett: that two levels above, they’re also switching around. It’s, it’s, it’s a mess. But [00:45:56] Jeff: Wow. [00:45:56] Merlin: oh. [00:45:56] Brett: anyway. [00:45:57] Jeff: Sorry, Brett. [00:45:58] Brett: That’s okay. Jeff,[00:46:00] [00:46:00] Jeff: Nah, don’t say that. That’s the Midwestern thing. That’s okay. It’s very much not. Okay. But, but I love you. Um. That’s, oh God. Um, how am I, uh, I gotta follow that opening act. Um, I’m good. I’m good. Mental and Emotional Health [00:46:18] Jeff: Uh, I really liked the distinction between mental health and, and emotional health. Health. I feel like, um, I feel like mental health is, uh, depending on the context, has a little shame attached to it, but also can just be kind of a wall that I hit when I’m thinking about it. [00:46:32] Jeff: But emotional health feels more fluid and inviting a little bit, um, and, and more dynamic, uh, and, and feels like it has fewer sort of rules. Um, when you enter into conversation. I know that like mental health conversations can kind of turn into war stories pretty quickly, um, and, and not, not get at the stuff that’s here, right? [00:46:52] Jeff: Um, I don’t mean in this podcast, I just mean in general. I think it’s a, a little bit more of an invitation. Um, okay. So I’m good. I, [00:47:00] I am. My, my life, um, is, is in sort of two parts. I am constantly reading and I’m not gonna talk about news, but I’m constantly reading and taking in news. I never wanna talk about it. [00:47:10] Jeff: Um, in part because we are in this moment where language has been both weaponized and neutralized, right? Like, when I try to put words in conversation or if I feel like I’m wanna write. You know, 10 words about the thing. I got nothing. Nothing. And that’s never been the case for me. That’s how I like writing even a few words, is how I bridge to whatever is like burning in me. [00:47:31] Jeff: Um, and that kind of is, ends up being a little bit of a release, uh, or a sort of a meaningful thing. Um, and so. That’s been hard. Finding Joy in Small Things [00:47:40] Jeff: Um, but the, the other part of me is just totally immersed in the things that either give me joy or give people I care about joy, that are fun to talk about, that are discoveries. [00:47:49] Jeff: I’m always a little like that, but I’ve found that I, it’s not even like I’m hiding in that. It’s like it’s become, it’s become something that is even brighter to me. Um, [00:48:00] and uh, and that’s been really. Um, and, and it’s a really, like, trite example of that is something that I would not expect to come outta my mouth, which is the band named Primus, um, which is not a band. Exactly, exactly. Not a band I like. Um, I, I liked one album in its time, uh, for a minute, but I’ve never had an emotional response to that band. I appreciate anybody who is sort of that narrow and yet experimenting inside of such a narrow box. I, I really appreciate that. I don’t relate. Um, but I super appreciate it. [00:48:35] Jeff: But they recently lost their drummer and not death, but left and they decided they needed a new drummer. And, and so they put out a call on the internet. 6,100 people posted videos, uh, of themselves in order, including the drummer of my son’s band who, uh, posted a video that I think was just him banging the snare drum. [00:48:53] Jeff: Um, which is really awesome. But they, they narrowed it down to like 10 people and they made these little like, [00:49:00] um, 30 minute mini docs of each audition. And it starts with Fred Armisen doing, uh, playing as a fake drumming YouTuber, um, always. And then they go into bringing these drummers in. It is really earnest and really sweet and the people who come in have a love for Primus that I can’t relate to. [00:49:18] Jeff: But I super appreciate ’cause it is a passion and I really love people’s passions, especially now. Um, curiosity and passion, maybe the two greatest things, like a lack of it. Two of the saddest things. And, and it’s amazing ’cause they do the same thing every time. So every Friday one of these drop, every Friday I watch severance and I watch the new episode of the Primus intergalactic drum derby is what they call it. [00:49:41] Jeff: And, and it’s everything from like these seasoned grizzled drummers to this. Like the last one was this 27-year-old kid. And then these two guys, the guitar player and the bass player and, and they’re just figuring it out together. They do a little free jam, then they ask the guy what song they wanna play. [00:49:56] Jeff: The guy plays the songs, drum parts. That never spoke to me. But it’s [00:50:00] amazing to watch people who have been working on ’em from, you know, weeks come in and do it. There’s just chitchat. There’s like behind the scenes interviews and most of all, like if you’ve been in a band like. It is amazing to me, the older I get, I don’t care who the band is. [00:50:14] Jeff: If I see that you’ve somehow managed to find a long arc, a way to a long arc, and you still seem like you’ve got your head together and you’re happy, which I can’t truly judge. But these two guys, Les Claypool, and I can’t remember the guitar players, they’ve just been through it together. And here they are in this like, it’s such a small group, it’s a trio, right? [00:50:32] Jeff: So it’s like the two of them and then a new ingredient every week. And, and seeing how they talk about it, and especially this last, last episode, which I really recommend. This was this 27-year-old who was so sweet full of energy by far their favorite drummer so far. And, and it was amazing to watch the two, uh, grizzled guys, not only playing out, but then talking about how they couldn’t look at him without smiling. [00:50:57] Jeff: Like they just, they found him so delightful in such an [00:51:00] infusion of sort of light. And so watching that happen every week, and it’s always basically the same songs in the same format, but it’s just as a musician I guess, and as a drummer especially, really lovely. And then I go really dark and watch Severance. [00:51:12] Jeff: Um, but that has been really nice, um, and has just like been one of those examples of like just kind of helping me connect with like and brightness, um, even as I, and it helps me to take in all the darkness. [00:51:28] Jeff: Um, and then the last thing, which i, I, I won’t, I just recommend people go to, is I just binged a blog for the first time in like 20 years. Nick Cave’s Blog and Grief [00:51:35] Jeff: It was Nick Cave’s blog. Um, Nick Cave, who I’ve loved forever, um, has a blog where he answers reader’s letters and questions. Um, and he does so with such an incredible depth and, and, and grace and humor. And one of them is a, is, I’ll put a link in the show notes, is a letter from some children in a school in like Corsica, uh, who asked him, uh, about his grief and the, the death of his [00:52:00] two boys. [00:52:00] Jeff: And then ask him, you know, you’re weird, you’re dark. We we like that, but are you ever happy? And then he responds and it’s just, it’s been beautiful and it’s been so long since I opened. It was a food poisoning actually. I opened that blog laying in bed and ended up reading like, you know, a whole, like, I don’t, maybe 15 posts. [00:52:18] Brett: Did you watch the documentary that came out maybe two years ago? [00:52:22] Jeff: I haven’t yet ’cause I, I can’t, um, this is the one that’s in the immediate wake of him losing, uh, his second son or his, I can’t do it. Um, and I, [00:52:31] Brett: it’s intense. It’s really good though. [00:52:33] Jeff: so this is a great way he touches on it. The kids ask him about the grief and hearing him process in a few paragraphs like that is really something that’s been amazing to take in. [00:52:42] Jeff: So I’m also, uh, uh, as apparently he did like a 30 minute interview with Stephen Colbert that I’ve not watched. [00:52:47] Merlin: Oh yeah, I saw that come up. It looked, you [00:52:49] Jeff: Sounds like it’s a pretty incredible thing, [00:52:51] Brett: I haven’t seen that. [00:52:52] Jeff: yet anyway, so just kind of like letting that stuff in or finding that stuff has been just a huge support. [00:52:59] Merlin: [00:53:00] absolutely. [00:53:02] Jeff: Fucking Nick Cave too. [00:53:03] Jeff: Really. I mean, my God. [00:53:04] Brett: Yeah. [00:53:05] Merlin: I just, saw him I, I don’t wanna derail it, but I just would like to say I totally agree and, um, I, I’m trying to do something along similar lines, I think both for myself and hopefully for other people. But, and I mean, I would go into that if you ever wanted to, but I, I agree with you. There’s, there’s, um, so QED we were talking earlier about, at least to this, A DHD adult brain that sometimes seeking out some kind of a certainty, like, why do we check our inbox when we check our inbox? [00:53:38] Merlin: ’cause it could be a bomb in there. And I can’t go back to what I’m trying to do in as long as I think there’s something out there that could get me somewhere. I mean, that’s what it, what are you anxious about? Nothing and everything. That’s what anxiety is. If I was worried about something specific, it would be fear and it would be manageable. [00:53:55] Merlin: But, um, I think. There’s, [00:54:00] I don’t know. See, I, I’m really, I’m not, I don’t mean to be critical. It’s a really, really, really hard time for almost everybody. Some people more than others. And I would, but I sometimes, I don’t know, I, I always wanna kind of check my privilege on this. I’ll never, I don’t, I, I don’t ever want to seem like I’m making light of something that’s very, very serious. [00:54:20] Merlin: But there’s also a fact that I’ve gotta keep in mind, which is, um, you’ll always find something worse and you’ll always find something more terrible, and you’ll always find something to remind you that you aren’t up to date on the stuff that you should be worried about. There are certain publications, including one I to which I subscribe based in, uh, New York City. [00:54:41] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:54:42] Merlin: They’re located in Times Square, if that helps at all. Um, that, that I feel like has really gone into the business of keeping you off balance, making you feel like a lack of balance is what’s the only thing out there. The only way to keep your head above water is to constantly be reminded of a thing that you [00:55:00] should be more worried about, and then on top of it all to subtly give you the impression that they’re the only people who can pull you out of the infra information morass that has you so sad and confused and whatever. [00:55:10] Merlin: It’s a living. And so, just to be clear, I I’m not trying, I, I really, I, there’s a lot of things I just won’t, don’t say in public because you can’t control how people are going to, how it’s gonna land with people. And you never want to be horrible with people, but you know. There’s not as much durability or longevity or substance to a bad time as it feels like, not at least because it’s constantly turning into another bad time in one way or another. [00:55:41] Merlin: You, you can’t beat that. Like you can’t just because things are extra super bad right now. The lesson to draw from that is, I mean, just to get it outta the way is not that you should, you know, distract yourself and bear your head in the sand and all that stuff. Lemme come back to that later if we have time. [00:55:58] Merlin: But, [00:56:00] but there is this sense that like, you’re not a serious adult if you’re not always just a very sad tomato. And if you’re not always finding some way, and like part of my beef with this is that people are not succeeding at finding a way to get their own head above what’s happening because it’s all horrible. [00:56:17] Merlin: But then we also kind of encourage each other and we egg each other on to be sad sacks. And like every, every social media network I, I join, that seems like a world of possibility for a few weeks, eventually reversed to the mean. And it just all comes back to like obvious jokes about the orange man, which I can’t do anything about. [00:56:34] Merlin: I can’t do anything about the orange man. I can’t do anything about the jokes. I can’t do anything about the deliberately horrible way. And I mean, that’s just one aspect of a, of a terrible world. But, you know, the, the word durability, there’s these words that come up and I probably sound like Tom Peters or something. [00:56:50] Merlin: Durability, longevity, integrity. These term, these, these terms that are very meaningful for me because I. I mean, I feel like I’m, it’s not so much that I’m [00:57:00] trying to purely distract myself by listening to music from the 18th century or by watching a four part TV show about how terrible the, the world is. [00:57:10] Merlin: What’s that? [00:57:10] Jeff: Vivaldi’s, heavy metal. [00:57:13] Merlin: Actually, I’m in an app right now called Vivaldi. Uh, so I don’t know. I, I don’t have, this is not anything I process to the point where I can say anything intelligent about, but I, but I will say this is the, like, you don’t make it better when you keep cutting yourself or whatever, when you keep just pushing everything to, to make yourself feel constantly on the edge of completely like coming apart at the seams, because it feels like the only rational thing to do. [00:57:44] Merlin: And maybe it is. I take a different point of view, which is like, what are the things that are durable, not just in terms of being like the thoughts of Great man and stuff like that. Adolescence. This TV show on Netflix is an unbeliev. Unbelievably [00:57:59] Jeff: Is what I hear.[00:58:00] [00:58:00] Merlin: It’s an unbelievably durable thing. And like, and the thing I said to someone I co-host a podcast with where we’ll be talking about this, is to use an old phrase that I first heard associated with Greek trauma. [00:58:14] Merlin: You know, in ancient times it’s cathartic, which is it enables you to sort of identify and feel. These feelings that are often just kind of in ate and bothering you and just a little bit of a mosquito bite sort of feeling. But part of it could be maybe you’re doing opera, you’re doing grand, you’re doing all these different kinds of theater and, and media that by the, or maybe watching slasher movies for that matter, or like, or Jesus watching the Pit, or like, poor Noah Wi Is, which I, I don’t care for, but like Noah Wiley, like wandering around in plastic, being traumatized and you are like, oh, I can finally feel something. But like, it’s, it’s just that I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I, I don’t know. See, I feel really bad even saying anything. I should come back to this topic when I have something more confident to say about it. It makes me very, very sad that [00:59:00] people, so many people in their own understandable, private, understandable ways have developed. Fun. Fact. Does anybody know what the original title of Annie Hall was? [00:59:13] Jeff: No, God damnit. I did know though. [00:59:16] Merlin: The original title of Annie Hall is anhedonia, which is a term for the inability to experience joy. [00:59:22] Brett: Mm-hmm. [00:59:22] Jeff: Wow. [00:59:23] Merlin: And I feel like there is a kind of chronic anhedonia that’s happening now that doesn’t even feel treatable. It feels counter-revolutionary. It feels, um, it’s difficult to describe, but I, uh, I, as somebody who accidentally got a background in the liberal arts, I cannot stop myself from noticing the durable ways that our world is still connected, the durable, long live ways that our world is still. [00:59:48] Merlin: Connected that it’s related, that it’s, that it’s grable and that there are instances of art all around us that give us the opportunity to feel real feelings instead of the one that just happened to [01:00:00] arrive in the post this morning. And it’s not, I’m not trying to fix anything, but like, and it’s sometimes it’s just like, fucking, you guys gotta watch this King gizzard in the Lizard Wizard [01:00:09] Jeff: King is [01:00:10] Merlin: I know I talk about it a lot, but [01:00:12] Jeff: just watched their Minneapolis performance. It was unbelievable. [01:00:15] Merlin: they, they put stuff up pretty few, but they do this, this one, uh, song on KX exp. They do this song song and there’s iron lung. And I happen to think it’s one of the, probably my favorite live rock performance of all time. If you, again, let’s just privilege, if you’ve played in a band, watch this and realize how much harder this is than it looks, and yet they make it look so easy. [01:00:35] Merlin: Like, well, okay, but like, don’t I need to get back to seeing what the New York Times says? I need to be slightly differently worried about this afternoon. And I’m not, I’m not trying to be glib and I’m not trying to say, you know, feelings are real, pain is real. The all these things are real, real, real, real. [01:00:50] Merlin: But like you still guys, you still have agency. You are allowed to look beyond. The terror that’s in front of your eyes and barely in focus for a minute [01:01:00] before it gets replaced by something else. You’re allowed to notice other things in the world. You’re, you’re, you’re allowed to derive and then share a feeling of humanity in art that has outlived the worst things in people of all time. [01:01:14] Merlin: And we can’t just throw that baby out with the bath because of how it’s going right now. [01:01:19] Jeff: you can’t throw babies out. You shouldn’t do that. [01:01:21] Merlin: Well. [01:01:23] Brett: I would like to offer a suggestion that nobody will take and we don’t have to talk about, but I have switched. I have switched from reading the Times and the Post and all of those to reading anarchist publications because anarchists don’t take that partisan view, uh, where everything the Republicans have done is bad and the, and the Democrats are weak and they’re not keeping up. [01:01:48] Brett: Like they take more of an overhead, like all politics are [01:01:53] Christina: Right. I was gonna say, but isn’t there, isn’t there a thing? Just all of this should be burned to the ground, [01:01:58] Brett: not necessarily, [01:02:00] uh, that there, the, the idea is that a better world is possible and yes, maybe, maybe things have to burn to a certain extent before that better world is possible. But that’s not a requirement. Like they focus on humanity and, and beauty and art and, um, and see the inherent violence of government as the problem and not, not that one party is in power It feels like a governance problem because we’re so used to seeing the, the, that, that pretty a spray painted on things. It’s not really, it’s secondarily or tertiary, a governance problem, but it’s ultimately a power problem, which really does connect for me. [01:02:44] Brett: Yeah, and I’ve, I find, I find a lot of comfort in reading from that perspective, um, and not getting my news like this up to the minute, oh my God, this executive order just came through and now these people are all fucked. And like, uh, yes, that’s happening. And yes, it sucks [01:03:00] and I don’t need to be riveted by that progression. [01:03:04] Brett: But anyway, [01:03:05] Jeff: Can I be a, can I be a bridge to Christina? Uh, out of this, there’s just a couple things. My very great bridge, a bridge to Christina. [01:03:14] Merlin: Christina Tara, I think her [01:03:15] Christina: oh, okay. That, I mean, I’m sorry. That book fucked me up so much as a child. All of [01:03:20] Jeff: What, [01:03:20] Merlin: I didn’t it my kid, but I [01:03:22] Jeff: what book? [01:03:22] Christina: the Bri British Teia, [01:03:24] Jeff: Oh, got it. Okay. Got it. Is there a [01:03:26] Christina: most No, no. God no. No, it, it, it’s the, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s actually an incredible chil I’ll talk about it my next thing, but go, go on. [01:03:35] Jeff: Well, okay, two, two things. One, my favorite, an anarchist I ever knew. Uh, we were, we were in the laundromat together in Chicago, and we were waiting for my laundry, I think, to dry, and there was a laundry folding table with a sign that said, do not sit. And, and I, and we’re talking casually, and I got up and I sat on the table and he goes, dude, get off the table. [01:03:52] Jeff: I was like, why? He’s like, if we could follow each other’s rules, we wouldn’t need police. [01:03:58] Brett: exactly. [01:03:58] Merlin: I, I, I, I’m gonna [01:04:00] quote, I’m gonna quote myself. Something I said pulled totally out of my ass on our Monday recording with Roderick and I, and I said it, and I’m, that’s not pretty smart, but I keep thinking about it. It’s not laws that keep its, uh, safe. It’s people observing laws that keeps [01:04:14] Jeff: Yeah. [01:04:15] Brett: Yeah. [01:04:16] Merlin: And I was like, whoa, that’s [01:04:17] Brett: then you, then you have the whole idea of anarchist calisthenics, which is the idea of, of if there are no cars in the street, it’s still technically illegal to walk across the middle of the street. But by doing so, you prepare yourself for a time in the future when there may be an unjust law that you do need to break. [01:04:38] Brett: So you like, you practice these anarchist calisthenics, but you pick and choose what, what laws actually benefit people, what laws actually keep people safe, and those are the laws worth following. And then laws that are ridiculous or unjust. You, you build up the [01:05:00] willpower to [01:05:00] Jeff: Red. [01:05:01] Brett: break. [01:05:02] Jeff: Holy shit. So you just created entirely new meaning for something that I’ve always kind of laughed about, which is I was in Germany and, and it was late at night and, and I was standing with some people at a crosswalk, but the, but the light was red [01:05:15] Brett: This is [01:05:15] Jeff: there were no cars. And I crossed the street and the Germans at that stoplight were like, Hey, what the fuck? [01:05:21] Brett: Yeah. [01:05:25] Jeff: Germans, of all people, [01:05:26] Brett: Well, so the term, the term anarchist calisthenics came from an article about exactly that, where people were queued up at a stoplight when there was, there were no cars coming, and there was this like mob mentality of like, it is against rules to break this particular law. And, and this one guy started like just testing the waters and got a lot of flack from the people around him. [01:05:50] Brett: I don’t remember what country it was in, but that’s exactly where the term came from. [01:05:55] Jeff: The very last thing is just, uh, tying up Merlin’s thing, I think. And then Christina, I [01:06:00] promised I’m done. Um, in terms of range of emotion, I think this both speaks to what you were talking about just now, but also the emotional health thing. I was doing a profile many years ago of a forensic anthropologist. [01:06:10] Jeff: He actually kinda like pioneered the techniques for, for digging up mass graves. Um, and, and I spent three days in his house and, and talking to him about his craft. Um, and, and, and he, um, he had a picture on his wall and it was, um, it was in Guatemala and they were, they were ex zooming, uh, uh, uh, a mass grave. [01:06:30] Jeff: You couldn’t see that. You could see the pit, um, taken from his perspective, but kind of left the pit out. And then, you know, people who had relatives may be in there. Uh, all the generations were sitting around on lawn chairs and, and some were staring, you know, just blankly some, someone was eating ice cream. [01:06:45] Jeff: A little girl was laughing. Um, and I asked him, I said, what, tell me about this. What is this? ’cause I just, I guess what I expect when I’m looking at this is just, just strictly horror and trauma or, or the waiting for it, right? And he said the thing that is most remarkable [01:07:00] about being in these situations is that when you are somewhere where something so horrible is, is literally being exhumed. [01:07:07] Jeff: E every single human emotion is accept, is accessible, every single human emotion. And, and I, I just like, it’s, it’s haunted me ever since. Kind of a beautiful haunting. But Merlin, when you were talking, it just kind of came to mind. It’s, we can let that in. I, I want Christina to talk, but I [01:07:24] Merlin: I have a lot Oh yeah, go [01:07:25] Christina: no go. No, go on, go on, go [01:07:26] Merlin: No, no, no, no. It’s not necessary. No, no, no. Go on. [01:07:30] Merlin: gosh, we’re not letting the smart Christina. fine. [01:07:34] Merlin: I just met a girl named Christina. That’s not really true. I met her long ago on a show. [01:07:42] Jeff: On a shoe. In a [01:07:44] Merlin: a shoe say it’s soft and it’s almost like praying. Um, but ah, fuck. I don’t know. Here’s the thing. I get this, I, I, I get this. I understand. I’m trying to say I understand that I get things less ’cause [01:08:00] it sounds condescending, but I understand why people are how they are. I understand. I think to an extent how I am, I’m just gonna say this and I’m gonna run away. [01:08:07] Merlin: I’m just gonna light it and run away. ’cause I do not have any evidence for this. I don’t have a persuasive theory. I could not debate this with John Craig Syracuse to any effective level. The Power of Vulnerability [01:08:16] Merlin: But I’ve, in my, in my adult life, I’ve never felt the necessity of vulnerability as much as I do right now. Every, every fiber of most of us, of our bodies, our, our, our mind, our emotions, our mental state is, is telling us to toughen up and is telling us to never lose an argument and is telling us to, like I. Okay, so at that point, lemme just trail off there and say, isn’t it wild how terrible everyone can be to each other no matter what. We know how much people on our, at least on my side of the aisle, love to go after each other. And that’s just, that’s just the way that we do it. That’s why we couldn’t get things done for 30 years. [01:08:57] Merlin: And then we finally got together on some things, and then [01:09:00] we decided that that was a bad strategy, and now we reject it all. Everybody, people are trying so hard to become invulnerable, emotionally, physically, psychically, religious, like however you look at it, uh, vulnerable. And it’s making people real stupid and, and real shortsighted. [01:09:24] Merlin: And I, this is why I’m lighting it and running away. Just call it privilege. Call it what you want. I’ve never felt the need for vulnerability more in my life because I have found at much personal cost, the vulnerability is where growth is. Vulnerability is where you are. Invulnerability is trying to create a world of things around you that aren’t you. [01:09:45] Merlin: You’re like the Soviet Union invading the, you know, the Latvian, Baltic countries to create these satellite countries. And like, we’ll never lose another drop of blood on, on, you know, Soviet soil. And that’s you. That’s all of us. When we try to create [01:10:00] these rings of info and listen, man, I don’t even know where to begin. [01:10:04] Merlin: Like if you’re, if you’re in a terrible relationship with somebody that’s abusing you, like I, I’m not trying to steal valor from any of the, like the real stuff, but you know what, there’s always been real stuff. There will always be real stuff. There will always be terrible, terrible, terrible people and things that you can do nothing about. [01:10:18] Merlin: So where are you in all of that at length? How long are you prepared to be the equivalent of like an NPC in your own little game where like you have just become yet another person who’s running through cross lights when people say it’s okay to cross that, that is, we we’re really, really just feeling things when we’re told to feel it. [01:10:37] Merlin: And then the only, because part of it is the only kind of comedy, the only ways that we get a lot of community, especially online, which is life. What’s the quickest way to bond with somebody? Dentist office, jury, dude. What’s the quickest way to bond? Find something you both hate. [01:10:53] Jeff: Mm-hmm. [01:10:54] Merlin: the room you’re in. [01:10:55] Merlin: Maybe it’s that, that, that, that nasty receptionist. But like you’d be amazed how many people from any side [01:11:00] of the aisle, people in pink and blue or red and blue or green and red or whatever, can bond over something that they both hate. Because that the clarity of something that we hate is a strong word. [01:11:10] Merlin: The clar, how the clarity that we feel about something that we consider an intolerable situation. That’s an opportunity that where people too, people on a bus can, can talk about the same. That’s sometimes it feels like that’s all we’ve got now. Is the thing that we can both hate for a little while. And I’m just saying, I’m finding a lot of, if not power, I’m finding more of myself and vulnerability than I’m finding myself in this world of people that are basically like, like parking lot Ballards, just trying to keep anything from, from getting through their perimeter. [01:11:41] Merlin: And they’re, they’re, they’re so unhappy and the trajectory for their future emotions is not promising right now. And they’re uninterested, not disinterested, they’re uninterested in it because keeping up the Ballards that make that vulnerability feel real are so important. But you’re [01:12:00] not in vulnerable. [01:12:01] Merlin: You’re not even that strong. You’re just, you’re just puffing yourself up and, and trying to feel like nothing affects you. And man, I don’t see, again, I’m lighting it and running away, but there’s a lot of stuff if you chose to, there’s a lot of stuff that you can find near the end of your nose that we’re remind you that every single one of us is a human being that’s only here for a little while. [01:12:23] Merlin: That we only have so much to offer, but we have so much to gain. We have so much to learn. We have so much to share. We have so much to pass on to each other in our humanity. I wouldn’t normally bust a gut like this, except I think there’s probably somebody who needs to hear [01:12:34] Merlin: that. And if you have the courage, uh, of. [01:12:38] Merlin: Being your own self or the courage of your convictions or however you look at it. You don’t have to tell a single person in the world, but learn to get a little bit more vulnerable. Maybe that means don’t be afraid to cry while you’re watching Doctor Who like, I don’t know, maybe that means, but you know, what that could mean is like there’s some kind of a tent pole piece of bullshit in your life that you think is keeping the roof up, that’s actually making [01:13:00] your room very crowded with all the different columns, with certainty and and sureness, and you’ve got it all figured out and you’re so fucking mad and everything has to be about everything, and that’s not gonna work for 20 years. [01:13:14] Merlin: When are you gonna start becoming a human being again? What will it take for you to feel like you have permission to be a human being again, and to feel vulnerability? Because that’s what you are. If you’re a human being, you are step zero for now. You’re alive. You’re gonna be dead a lot longer than you’re ever, we’ve ever been alive. [01:13:32] Merlin: I don’t know, man. I just, I, and I’m trying to avoid getting into examples that would make people roll their eyes, but there’s a lot of stuff at hand. You have everything you need to become a human being today, and it can save you a whole lot of overhead and it will not protect you from anything. But I defy a lot of people to tell me what they are successfully protecting themselves from. [01:13:55] Merlin: Right now, I don’t think it’s working. [01:13:57] Jeff: Mm. [01:14:00] Runs away. [01:14:01] Christina: Yeah. [01:14:02] Jeff: great. That’s. [01:14:05] Merlin: Watch. [01:14:06] Brett: on that [01:14:07] Jeff: there’s another opening act you gotta follow. I just, I just had to follow, uh, [01:14:11] Jeff: job. I’ll, I’ll bridge this for you. If it’s cool, I’ll do the other add read, and then you can start with kind of a clean slate. Um, [01:14:20] Merlin: we could just keep this bit up where Christina never gets to Honestly, honestly, we’re fine. I’m [01:14:25] Merlin: Lemme stop you there, Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba [01:14:28] Brett: so this episode is also sponsored by one of our favorite developers, RO MEbA, makers of [01:14:34] Merlin: boo. [01:14:35] Brett: audio software for the Mac. [01:14:39] Merlin: What a dumb company. [01:14:41] Brett: Oh. They specifically said in the aery that we’re not allowed to raspberry them. Um, no, but seriously, we love rogue Ameba, rogue amoeba. [01:14:51] Merlin: down. [01:14:53] Brett: They’ve been developing audio focus apps for the Mac for over 20 years, going all the way back to iOS [01:15:00] 10.2, which is Jaguar. If you’ve forgotten, [01:15:02] Jeff: Jaguar. [01:15:03] Brett: their latest versions make it a snap to get started with. [01:15:06] Brett: No need to even restart your Mac. I personally love Sound Source and Loop Back, and I use them all the time. Sound Source puts per app audio controls, including the ability to apply effects right into your menu bar and Loop Back is an amazing app for routing audio signals and working with multiple audio devices. [01:15:25] Brett: And I would be remiss of course to not praise Audio Hijack, uh, which everyone in the podcasting community is familiar with the all purpose tool for recording and routing audio on your Mac. It can do just about anything with application, audio or microphone input, and it has a ton of automation possibilities. [01:15:43] Brett: Learn more about all of rogue Amoeba [email protected] slash Overtired. That’s mac audio.com/ Overtired. Uh, listeners of Overtired can save 20% off any purchase through the end of May with the coupon code [01:16:00] Overtired. Just go to mac audio.com/ Overtired and use the coupon Overtired. And now Christina, over to you. [01:16:08] Merlin: Can I, can I, hang on, hang on. Can I talk about why I was being silly there? [01:16:12] Christina: of course. [01:16:13] Brett: Yes, of course. [01:16:16] Merlin: It’s one of my favorite companies, and it’s one of my favorite companies, not simply because they make so many applications that I use every day, much like stuff you make Brett stuff that I use for my work, but like, they super care about their users in a way that is, that really shows. [01:16:32] Merlin: Um, like I, you know, again, QED, I don’t like to make things negative, but Apple over time in the interest of purportedly of security, has made it a lot more frustrating to do very powerful things with your Mac and RBA has been every [01:16:45] Christina: neutered it. Let’s just say it, let’s just call it what [01:16:47] Merlin: sure try. They’ve sure at least, I don’t dunno if they cut ’em off, but they’ve definitely hidden them beneath some sort of, uh, general burka. [01:16:53] Merlin: But Rova is there every step of the way trying to make things as easy as possible and dependable as possible for their users. [01:17:00] And they get my officio official Okie Doe except for Paul. I don’t like Paul personally. Go Birds. Bridge to Christina [01:17:10] Christina: Oh They’re great people. They’re great people. Um, okay. I don’t have that much to really, I guess kind of like add to, to the discourse. Certainly not anything like important, but when we’re talking about vulnerability, when we’re talking about other things and, and I guess, uh, ways of like getting in with your emotions. [01:17:28] Christina: I’m so sorry. This is such a weird segue to go back to, I’m gonna go back to, to Merlin’s, like Bridget Teia joke. That book fucked me up so much as a kid, but it is like an incredible book. Um, the movie will fuck you up too, but uh, none of you have ever read it. [01:17:44] Jeff: No, I’ve never heard of it. [01:17:45] Christina: Okay. [01:17:46] Merlin: I heard the movie’s not as good. [01:17:47] Christina: I mean, the movie is actually good, but, but like, it’s, it, it’s hard. [01:17:50] Christina: So it, it’s a children’s book ish. I guess it’s what we used to be able to call, I, I call like, like young adult, but like now, like has a different connotation, but like middle readers, right? Like, I [01:18:00] think I read it in elementary school, but you could definitely. It’s well written it like one, like whatever the, whatever the, the equivalent of the Pulitzer is for like children’s literature, like Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:18:11] Christina: Like it, it won that. And, uh, it, it, the, the author, she was like in her forties and it was, I guess kind of like, she’d been like a missionary. And then she wrote, uh, started writing like later in life, uh, publishing and, and like every single book she released was like incredibly well received, um, uh, critically and, and commercially. [01:18:29] Christina: And her books have also been subject to book bands, which is ridiculous. But, um, the, the, the story, uh, I is about like the, these two, you know, kids who like 11 years old, like a boy and a girl and like takes place in like the seventies in, uh, like West Virginia or something, or, or, or, um, near the DC area. Um, so, so maybe regular Virginia and, uh, and kind of growing up together and what, and they kind of, kind of create this, this world together they call Teia, where, you know, they’re just kind of playing and, but it’s this [01:19:00] coming of age story and I won’t like. I’ll get emotionally even saying, let’s just put it this way. There is like the, the ending, like it is one of the most tragic things like you will ever read. And the fact that like say children’s book, holy Shit, it fucks you up, but like, in a really good way. And then that, the backstory is, is that, that she wrote it basically, um, it was in some ways based on like a real thing that happened to her actual son. [01:19:24] Christina: And so it was like her way of like dealing with her grief to, to, to write about it. But it’s just, it’s, it’s a, it’s an incredible book. And it’s like one of those things like, um, I think about it sometimes, like when we think about like, I don’t know, it’s, it’s just, um, about feeling things like vulnerability. [01:19:39] Christina: Like that is actually like weirdly for reading like a children’s book. But she wrote like, I guess higher level step [01:19:45] Merlin: But it’s okay. You’ve got permission, [01:19:47] Christina: Oh no, totally. But, but I’m saying no, but, [01:19:48] Merlin: No, no, no, no. But I’m saying it’s different from like what you’re allowed to have a surprisingly strong feeling about in adulthood. Normally. That’s why I say Doctor Who, if I watch Day of the Doctor, my favorite episode of Doctor Who I’m, I’m gonna cry, [01:20:00] cry three different times. [01:20:00] Merlin: It’s, this is known, but Right. Isn’t that part of it though, is it’ll catch you kind of off guard sometimes. Like a real feeling will hit you from a place you didn’t expect. [01:20:09] Christina: right. No, but I was just kind of thinking that. Right. But like, and, but, um, she’s a, she’s still alive. She’s 92. Catherine Peterson. Um, good for her. Um, yeah, and no, she, she won, um. I guess like the new barrier or whatever, like for, for Brite Rabia and for for Jacob Pap I loved, and then she won the National Book award twice as well. [01:20:28] Christina: And then she got like, I mean, she basically got like every book you could like, like every award. Like you, you could kind of get like in her like through throughout the seventies. And she didn’t write that mini books, but like the ones she did write were all like, fucking bangers that will break your heart emotionally and just be like, fuck you up. [01:20:45] Christina: But, but, but Bridgette, the, which was published in 77, so like, it is, it became a movie and the movie is pretty good. But the movie is, the funny thing about the movie is that, uh, Walden or whoever, like distributed it, they wanted [01:21:00] to kind of sell up the fantasy aspect of, of the whole thing. And there’s not really one. [01:21:04] Christina: And so imagine a bunch of parents taking their kids to see a book that they think is kind of gonna be like Narnia and having a very different kind of ending, [01:21:16] Merlin: Right. [01:21:16] Christina: like a sort of ending that like, you [01:21:18] Merlin: You think it’s Lord to the Rings, but it’s actually Old Yeller. [01:21:20] Christina: uh, it’s, it is actually my girl. Uh, it is, is, yeah. That, that, that, that’s the spoiler I’ll give. So like, but yeah, it’s, it’s actually like, like my girl. [01:21:29] Christina: So, but like, like holy shit. So, um, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. You’re like, oh, this is gonna be this great family fun film. And then you’re like, um, I, I’ve just had my, my like heart ripped outta my stomach. Anyway, that’s, that, that, that, that’s neither here nor there. But, uh. Yeah, [01:21:49] Jeff: that seems like it’s in both places. [01:21:52] Christina: Anyway, that was just a weird [01:21:53] Merlin: but [01:21:53] Merlin: you, we were talking about [01:21:55] Christina: yeah, exactly. [01:21:55] Christina: And, and I was gonna say that, and it made me think that it was kind of the, one of those funny things. ’cause I was like, [01:22:00] God, like that. That’s the sort of like shit that like, holy wow, you know? Anyway, [01:22:06] Merlin: My lizard died, um, uh, a little bit ago. And um, this is just wildly apropos nothing except of everything. Um, but, um, he died. I buried him, blah, blah, blah. Ah, thanks. But the point is that, you know, I’ve got those, uh, I got, I got a smart home. You know, and like one of the things that’s, that we have done to take care of him is we have an eve power strip that’s got like, it’s really nice. [01:22:34] Merlin: It’s got 1, 2, 3, you can, like, they’re programmable and, and like, and they give you data on like how much wattage was used. And Eve makes great stuff and I, I love that power strip. I buried the lizard, which is not a euphemism. Um, and I thought, oh, you know, that’s, that’s a nice, that’s a really nice, uh, power strip. [01:22:53] Merlin: I grabbed one day for his vivarium, I should get that back. And I went and I unplugged his power strip. [01:22:59] Jeff: Hmm [01:22:59] Merlin: [01:23:00] the power strip it does his UV light, does his heat lamp and does the rock that he liked to lay on. And for some reason unplugging that power strip made me cry really? Somewhat, um, somewhat uncontrollably, which I didn’t mind. [01:23:15] Merlin: Like I, I like when emotions come out because I’m okay with being vulnerable, like, all cos but it that, that’s the reason I mention that here is like you don’t know where it’s gonna come from. Yeah, okay. Whatever I got, I’ve got a lizard. People think that’s weird. He’s spiky. Syracuse doesn’t like him. He died. [01:23:32] Merlin: That was sad. There was a whole lot of sad. There was just a, a big bummer. The way that we found him was, you know, bad and, um, but it was unplugging in addition to those not. Like, you know, [01:23:43] Brett: Not, not [01:23:44] Merlin: but in addition, in addition to those taking, unplugging a power strip from the wall, hit some part of my brain. And I have to tell you, it’s a part of my brain. [01:23:54] Merlin: This is why I, I have no tolerance for most people as human beings. The part of my, I have no problem at all understanding that there’s [01:24:00] a part of my brain, let’s just call it, I don’t know, the, uh, the creative crucible or the, the, the, the humanity engine. But there’s some part of my brain that where humor and and sadness are very close to each other. [01:24:12] Merlin: What’s, what’s humor humor’s about? Surprise. So it’s kind of a similar feeling to a good joke you didn’t expect or catching yourself doing something that’s funny, by the way, because of how you are and you laugh to yourself and go, God, I’m so funny. I’m such a dingling. It’s just that, that one, I wasn’t laughing with myself. [01:24:30] Merlin: I was crying with myself. It’s so ironic that me unplugging this smart thing that I’m gonna go and reset and reuse for different things. That that’s what had me feeling this strong emotion. And, uh, can I just say, I’ll just, uh, cover myself with glory here? I don’t think that’s the kind of feeling we encourage ourselves to feel when we’re trying to approach invulnerability. [01:24:53] Jeff: Mm-hmm. [01:24:53] Merlin: fact, I think most of us would say that’s the kind of bullshit that we need to get out of our life so we can be strong, like Bolt, [01:25:00] just tossing it out there. But, but that, that’s a Buddhist gif. When you get a little moment that makes you a little sad. ’cause you thought about a book, Christina, I, I would argue there’s a good chance you’re still alive. [01:25:10] Christina: it’s true, it’s true. [01:25:11] Jeff: Hmm. [01:25:12] Christina: That’s a good point. And I, and I think you make a good point too. Like there are those things where like you, you know, yeah. Like we, we put on the, the strong face, we put on the, you know, the, the, the gr and bear it thing. And then you are, um, and, and you, and you maybe even, you think you, you’ve dealt with like a, a thing and then you’re faced with a decision, which seems completely innocuous. [01:25:30] Christina: You know, you’re unplugging a power cable and then you’re realizing, why am I doing it? [01:25:34] Merlin: Decide like you’re driving by a dead person’s favorite restaurant for the first time, like whatever. You know, there’s those kinds of things where you’re like, ah, I thought I’d taken care of everything, but I still have feelings. [01:25:45] Christina: Yep. Which is good because to your point, we, we, we need that otherwise, like we lose our humanity. And I think that’s so important when there’s so many genuinely terrible things happening to like, remind ourselves. Because for me, it’s important for me to do it because. I am, I’m glad that, [01:26:00] like Brett finds comfort in reading anarchist, like stuff that would not provide me any comfort at all. [01:26:06] Christina: So I wouldn’t bother with it. It would just make me angry. And, and, but, but, but if it provides you comfort or makes you, gives you good things, like I, I, I want people to do like what’s best for them. For me though, like, I am having a really hard time ’cause I’m still in this phase with anything news related where I’m just kind of in a, I don’t wanna look at it. [01:26:24] Christina: I don’t wanna engage with it. I can’t deal with it. Like I don’t have [01:26:27] Merlin: so stupid. Everything is, I called it dumb 19, 19 35. It’s like dumb 1935 all over America [01:26:34] Christina: Yeah, no, [01:26:35] Merlin: as, it’s as concerning as 1935, just even dumber. [01:26:38] Christina: agreed. Agreed. And, and, but, but where I, I’m at, and I, and I’m, and in some cases it’s a good thing because I am like protecting myself and I’m like, you know, getting myself to a certain thing, but I’m trying to be careful ’cause like, I don’t wanna become so like nihilistic that I just don’t, you know, that I’m just at a point where I’m like, fuck it, burn it all. [01:26:56] Christina: I don’t give a shit. We’re gonna be dead anyway. What does it matter? [01:27:00] Like, I don’t wanna become that far removed, but at the same time, I can’t actually find myself to care. The Emotional Struggle of Engagement [01:27:05] Christina: Like, I can’t engage because I care too much. It’s one of those things like, you know, I, I think it’s important for us to be able to remind ourselves that there are things we can feel emotion about that like, feel not controllable, but, but feel like, I don’t know, tangible in a way. [01:27:20] Christina: Whereas everything else, it’s like I have all these feelings, but there’s literally nothing I can do about any of them. And I don’t wanna. Like, it doesn’t do me any good to, to, to, you know, keep up with what’s happening or, or no, not keep up, engage doesn’t Questioning the Value of Awareness [01:27:36] Merlin: Well, and like how much did you benefit from learning? There’s three more terrible things today, or a way I put it that’s is a little blunt by design. Um, when you find out about the next horrible thing or the next five horrible things, what will you do differently this morning? [01:27:49] Christina: Right, right. And, and, [01:27:51] Merlin: I think is a question we don’t ask ourselves often enough. [01:27:53] Merlin: We don’t need to be asking that question all the time. There’s nothing we need to be doing all the time except breathing and shitting. But like, [01:28:00] don’t we need to occasionally say, I mean, like for me, ’cause it’s this whole stack for me of like, I think about, you know, cog like, uh, sort of, uh, awareness, like attention leads to, uh, leads to cognition. [01:28:12] Merlin: You know, you get thinking, thinking leads to decisions, decisions lead to action, and that the music goes around and around. The Futility of Constant Sadness [01:28:18] Merlin: I just don’t understand how like, shoveling more of that horror into my face a deliberately very aggressive, uh, let’s just say there’s, there’s a lot to be gained for anybody who like, wants to feel sad right now that the, if you’re in that business of keeping people a little bit sad, this is a good, this is a, a boom economy in c certain ways. [01:28:39] Merlin: Um, but. Uh, I don’t know. Philosophical Reflections on Life and Action [01:28:42] Merlin: I, uh, I, I think we, uh, you know, Kiir Kegar talks about this feeling of wanting to be consumed, you know, by, by, by our, by our angst or by our, our grief for boy or whatever it is, but like, probably grossly misquoting at this point. But like, the idea that like, you’re gonna keep living till you die.[01:29:00] [01:29:00] Merlin: That’s basically the stakes. And it’s like, you’re not, you’re not gonna live any better by convincing yourself that there’s new things you can do. Nothing about that. And if you can that, that, that, that’s good. May maybe, and if it’s fun, that’s good. I’m not trying to say any given thing. What I am trying to say is, drinking salt water will kill you. [01:29:19] Merlin: So if you think you’re quenching your thirst with salt water, I think the guy in the black freighter says, you know, in a watchman says, you know, you can drink salt water for like a short period of time and survive, but you don’t wanna be doing that forever. Look how it turned out with him. No spoilers. The Dangers of Over-Engagement [01:29:34] Merlin: But, but what I, what I am saying is, uh, sometimes, you know, as smart and as invulnerable as we want to be, we do sometimes very much work at cross purposes with ourselves, with the things we claim that are important or the things that we claim we’re focusing on, or all those different kinds of, like tent pole things that I feel very strongly about. [01:29:53] Merlin: And I don’t know, I feel, uh, a spirit spiritual kinship with you here, uh, Christina. ’cause I, I, [01:30:00] I, I, I think I feel a similar way. I feel the, the sort of, the, the guilt of like, why haven’t I done more? But hey, you know, this is what y’all wanted. [01:30:09] Christina: Yep. No, there’s a certain point where [01:30:10] Merlin: This is what y’all claim you wanted. You beat us. You beat us. So, [01:30:14] Christina: you, you, you beat us, you beat you, you beat, you beat us real good. Uh, on, on every level. And now this is what it is. And I, I, I, I, you know, I’m not, I’m not, not at that point, like, and I, but, but like, where I worry, and I, and I don’t think it’s, I think it’s okay for to have lasted as long as it lasted and for it to last longer, but like, I don’t want it to get to the point where I’m just like, so completely like, tapped out that like, you know what I mean? The Importance of a Balanced Approach [01:30:35] Christina: Like right now, I can’t, I, I can’t engage and I can’t, I can’t pretend to like, uh, you know, be, get upset and get like, overly invested in any of it because I just, I [01:30:45] Merlin: And then what happened? What happens? The cautionary tale, and then I, we should probably talk about something else, but the cautionary tale then becomes like, okay, so you’ve gotten really good, you’ve gotten a hair trigger about always being able to like, detect and, and uh, and internalize and potentially [01:31:00] integrate the shittiness of the world you’ve gotten. [01:31:01] Merlin: So one has gotten so efficient at doing that. And when does that stop? When and, and, and put differently, put more saliently. When do you realize that’s just one of your strategies? And as I like to say, and my things I say to myself, one of those things is remember your toolbox. Remember you’ve got a toolbox. [01:31:20] Merlin: Like that can be one of the things in your toolbox, but you don’t want that to be your whole white panel van for life is just. Just constantly on the edge of, of just diarrhea, diarrheaing yourself with this inability to do anything, and then just getting so efficient at sucking it all in. And it’s like, where, where are you in all of that? [01:31:42] Merlin: If one could ask, you know, [01:31:44] Merlin: I don’t know. I’m talking about some having, Transition to GrAPPtitude [01:31:47] Brett: Do you guys wanna, do you wanna move on to a GrAPPtitude [01:31:50] Christina: Yeah, [01:31:51] Jeff: Yeah. But I, I recommend everybody go listen to, uh, Sammy Davis Jr’s. I’m Gonna Live Until I Die, which is off of the Sammy Davis Jr. Album. The Wham of [01:32:00] Sam. [01:32:02] Brett: will, will you add that to the show note as [01:32:04] Jeff: just ki. [01:32:05] Brett: recommendation? [01:32:07] Christina: Um, also, also, also, before, before we do that, I, [01:32:09] Merlin: I kind like my Sammy Davis. I’m sorry. I’m gonna have do the screenshot of this, because this is a pretty good Sammy kind like, hi man, what’s happening? Ka [01:32:18] Christina: um, uh, Merlin, um, what Elvis book, uh, did, did you get, did you get his Elvis book or his last 24 hours of Elvis? From, from uh, uh, [01:32:27] Merlin: Oh, uh, it’s, it’s Albert Goldman, circa 80 ish. I think it’s called [01:32:33] Christina: wrote two. Okay. Yeah. ’cause he wrote two. One was [01:32:35] Merlin: just the one called Elvis, [01:32:36] Christina: Okay, got it. Great. ’cause I’m, I’m gonna like buy [01:32:38] Merlin: I think, I mean, I’m not sure it’s, it’s somewhere in the house. I’m not [01:32:41] Christina: well, no, no, no, no, no. One was the last 24 hours of Elvis or whatever, and then he wrote like, I [01:32:45] Merlin: I, you know, [01:32:46] Christina: and then, then this was one just called Elvis. [01:32:48] Merlin: I’m a zen master. I’m a zen master buddy. I say get ’em both if you can Find them, get ’em. Get ’em both. [01:32:55] Christina: For like $7, I’m gonna do it. [01:32:56] Merlin: Stocking stuffer. Can I just say [01:32:58] Christina: I, I mean, [01:33:00] look, I [01:33:00] Merlin: whichever one you like least give to a loved one and now that’s theirs. [01:33:04] Christina: And you’re like, [01:33:04] Merlin: They’ll take care of it. [01:33:05] Christina: please read my trash Pul fiction from, from 40 years ago. Um, uh, even though it’s not fiction from what you say it might be. Um, [01:33:15] Merlin: Uh, you know, it should be true. Oh, there’s a lot in there. I know. It’s not just the one chapter. It’s also how he had hole in the wall so he could watch the ladies wrestle in their underpants. He had a, he had a heavily mistreated chimp that would throw poop at people. It was very poorly socialized. Also, whatcha even doing with a chimp? [01:33:29] Merlin: Like step zero, you know? [01:33:31] Jeff: I mean, I’d [01:33:32] Merlin: it’s kind of crazy way I masturbate on that. [01:33:33] Jeff: it’s Spider Monkey. If I had to make a choice, [01:33:36] Merlin: yeah. Spider Monkey. I remember Richard Pryor bit about that. Anyway, Elvis was a, was a model citizen. [01:33:42] Christina: no, he was, he was, and, and, uh, and, and, and [01:33:44] Jeff: said. [01:33:45] Merlin: quoting Lilo and Stitch. Elvis Presley was a model citizen. I love that movie [01:33:52] Christina: I do too. That movie’s, God, that movie’s really good. Uh, but yeah, we should do gratitudes. [01:33:58] Brett: Okay. Who wants to go first? [01:34:00] I’ll start. [01:34:01] Merlin: Yeah. Tech Tips and Recommendations [01:34:01] Brett: I’ll start since I had mine, mine premeditated and the rest of, you’re probably figuring it out on the [01:34:05] Christina: No, I’ve got mine figured [01:34:06] Jeff: got mine. [01:34:07] Christina: go. [01:34:08] Brett: Um, um, I think Jeff has actually mentioned this one before, but I wanted to talk about super key. [01:34:14] Jeff: Oh. [01:34:15] Brett: Um, a cool little utility. Um, it has the ability to make a hyper key, which is when your, your caps lock becomes control shift, alternate and command. [01:34:27] Brett: But I still use carabiner for that. I find it more seamless to use something closer to hardware level. But what super key does for me is I can press on my keyboard, it’s hyper key and semicolon, so it’s my two pinkies. I hit that combination and a little search bar pops up and I can type and it can find any button, any text, anything on the screen that has letters. [01:34:55] Brett: And I just type the first few letters of the button I wanna click, and then I hit [01:35:00] return and it clicks that button. [01:35:02] Merlin: Is it? Is it, is it, you’re flipping on access, not accessibility, but you’re flipping on screen recording [01:35:06] Brett: both [01:35:06] Merlin: that enables it. [01:35:08] Brett: and screen recording and it can find, there’s another one called Whoosh that only does menu items, um, and, [01:35:17] Merlin: there’s a lot of those that are like command shift, question mark on steroids kind [01:35:22] Brett: Well, I, I also love Paltro, which it gives you like command shift p [01:35:28] Merlin: I think that’s on set. I, [01:35:29] Brett: yeah, it is. Um, and, and Paltro is great for quickly accessing menu items for which I haven’t bothered to memorize keyboard shortcuts. [01:35:40] Brett: Uh, but super key means that I can access buttons that don’t even have keyboard shortcuts as if, almost as if they had keyboard shortcuts. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. That’s my pick. [01:35:52] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Um, so I’ll go next. Um, uh, this is, this is a weird one, uh, because I’ve [01:36:00] never had, like, I’ve never, I don’t think I’ve ever picked a Chrome extension as my, my, uh, gude, but I’m going to, uh, so with the new job, I am using, uh, you know, the Chrome web browser, uh, for the majority of what I do, um, I, I still use, you know, some native apps sometimes, but like, I, I, uh, because of of, of software policy stuff, I can’t use an app like Mindstream for mail. [01:36:22] Christina: I have to use Gmail and pwa. I have to use, you know, other things. Um, and uh, uh, obviously we are completely, uh, all in on, you know, Google Docs and, and all of that stuff. Um, and so as a result I have, and, and I’ve, you know, always had a kind of a struggle with like, you know, how are you managing all of your different windows, um, uh, you know, Chrome tabs. [01:36:42] Christina: Um, but now it’s like that. But like times 1000, because I probably have a hundred, you know, or not a hundred, but I probably have 10 different windows with, you know, 40 or 50 different tabs at, at any given time. And the frustrating thing can be, uh, is that if you have too many tabs in like a window, then when to the [01:37:00] point, like you can’t see all the tabs and you can’t, like, you know, scroll through the next thing. [01:37:03] Christina: And obviously you can use keyboard shortcuts to see what’s there, but it can, sometimes you’re just like, I just wanna pull this freaking. Um, you know, tab out of this window and put it in its own thing and kind of start over from, from this point, or just have this one be front most because maybe I’m having a video call here or something else, or, or it’s a document or something else. [01:37:21] Christina: And, you know, usually you could just kind of, um, you know, grab the, the bar and drag it and whatnot, but I’m like, I needed it keyboard shortcut for this. And so I found this, uh, extension, which is in the Chrome, um, uh, you know, uh, store. Uh, but it’s also on GitHub called tab to Window. And basically you can set up a hot key. [01:37:40] Christina: Um, in my case I’m using option, but, uh, you, you, you could, you, you know, set it to be whatever you want, where I basically press option X on the tab that I’m in and it will immediately open it into, um, a, a new window, uh, basically. And you can also set it to go to a different display if that’s what you want with a different shortcut. [01:37:57] Christina: You can also make it, uh, open as a popup so that [01:37:59] Merlin: [01:38:00] It’s window management, but for a browser, [01:38:02] Christina: It is, that’s exactly what it is. Is, and, and you can even [01:38:04] Merlin: Like Moom or something [01:38:05] Christina: precisely, and you can even set it up like if what you want to, not to resize or to resize, to basically, you know, be exactly like a, like a, you know, a keyboard based Windows manager, but for your browser windows. [01:38:17] Christina: And for me, this has just been incredibly useful because I have so many of them all the time that I’m very frequently needing to pop one out or move it to some oth other thing. Uh, and, uh, I don’t wanna have to, you know, fuck with my mouse, um, or my track pad. And so just being able to use, you know, keyword shortcuts is, is great. [01:38:36] Brett: Nice. That’s super cool. [01:38:38] Merlin: Yeah. I like [01:38:39] Jeff: awesome. [01:38:40] Merlin: I always feel like I should spend more time with things like, um. Keyboard maestro and oh my God, I can’t believe I’m saying these words. This is such an indictment. ’cause for years, the whole reason I wouldn’t learn keyboard, my, I wouldn’t open keyboard maestro is I got the big blinking, attractive nuisance light. [01:38:58] Merlin: Like, don’t make this into your next [01:39:00] quicksilver, where all you do is think about it all day long. Like, you know, I gotta be careful with those kinds of things. With that said, there are times where like, I mean like you, like y’all know how to do stuff in the terminal. Like I just open prompt and like hit it like a chimp. [01:39:12] Merlin: I don’t know what I’m doing, but like, but you know, but then there are certain kinds of things where I’m like, oh, like in drafts or like, you know, I’ll, I’ll just, like, there’s a little dumb thing I want to fix or I want to keyboard command that works the same between like, it’s just so fast and easy with keyboard, maestro and better touch tool. [01:39:27] Merlin: Thank you. Thank you, Brett. You’re the one who turned me onto that one. Um, I mean, you can make chords and you can like, you can basically like basically play color my world by Chicago to make something happen on your iPad. [01:39:37] Christina: Yes. [01:39:39] Brett: You actually [01:39:40] Merlin: That’s major [01:39:40] Brett: do that. ’cause they have key, they have MIDI triggers [01:39:44] Merlin: Ah, [01:39:45] Brett: they have MIDI triggers in [01:39:46] Merlin: Like Willy won, like Willy Wonka. I could finally use that Arturia I’ve never used. [01:39:52] Merlin: I thought I fixed something and I don’t know what happened. At a point, drafts very intelligently stopped working with text expander and there was a [01:40:00] fix, I feel like I learned about from Dr. Durang. And then one day it went away on iOS and I don’t know, ’cause S-D-A-T-E-I, you know, short date, I’m just constantly typing that for an ISO date. [01:40:11] Merlin: But like it’s, I, there are times where I’m like, and because I, I’ve been working on trying to figure out what I broke and I’m so embarrassed to ask anybody what it is. ’cause I had done it. I brought all my text expander into I thought keyboard maestro, but maybe I didn’t. And how did that work on iOS and am I drunk? [01:40:26] Merlin: Like, you know. But, uh, the, what was the point of that? I’m sorry. I we’re still working on my sleep. [01:40:34] Christina: you were saying you think that you should get more into like some of these tools. [01:40:38] Merlin: sometimes like I want to go, I need to go in and find out what I did before and I start poking around and then it’s like I start going, Ooh, I didn’t realize there, Ooh, you can have a window. Go do a thing based on when this kind of thing happens. And it’s kind of like me trying to get into stuff with HomeKit and some combination of chat CPT and shortcuts and home where I try to get stuff like turn off the turn off once I plug in my [01:41:00] scooter, turn it off after this long and that kind of stuff. [01:41:02] Merlin: And like, you just, I, it’s an attractive nuisance. It’s not bad, but like, this is the, the canonical 43 folders, Merlin, you’ve got to watch your ass or this is what you do now. [01:41:13] Christina: Right? [01:41:14] Merlin: know what I mean? Like, those apps are so exciting, but like each time I look at ’em to fix something, I notice something else and I go, Hmm. [01:41:20] Christina: And I, and then, then I’m like, and then, then my A DH ADHD kicks in and I’m like hyper focusing on it. And then I look up and I’m like, it’s been six [01:41:26] Merlin: I know. Oh, I know, I know. I’ve been tagging every three. Hey, hey, can I give you a hot tip while we’re at it? Uh, really, really dumb. No-brainer. Hot tip. Uh, this is a phrase I’ve used for years. And, uh, well, there’s actually kind of two tips. One tip, as I talked about on my new web blog or blog is that you should, uh, put things where you look for it, not where you think it should go. [01:41:44] Merlin: And the same goes for [01:41:46] Jeff: Yes. [01:41:46] Merlin: Bar. It goes for launch bar, it goes for, it goes for keyboard metric, it goes for all these, all these different, um, kinds of things. So one of the hot tips was to start noticing stuff, uh, that, that, that, that could be in a better location. [01:41:59] Merlin: And the other [01:42:00] one, I created a list in the reminders app called Mosquito. [01:42:06] Jeff: hmm [01:42:06] Merlin: And that the reason is I is a term I used to use and I wrote about this on my stupid goddamn web blog, my old web blog, um, I call Mosquito task, which is like stuff that’s not, this is a very GTD adjacent idea of like, you’ve got projects and you’ve got tasks, and then you know you, ’cause you’ve got context. [01:42:22] Merlin: Why don’t we work that? So maybe one of those contexts is stuff that I do when I’ve got the house to myself. On a Thursday, like where does that go? Long story short. Anyways, think about that. That’s what’s one and a half tips so far. Think about, uh, the mosquito task in your life. Just like, um, uh, uh, pick a place to put on my pencils. [01:42:41] Merlin: Like whatever. Just dumb stuff. A lot of it’s little fixes. I created a reminders list called Mosquito [01:42:47] Merlin: the point is, if you create a list in reminders with whatever the hell you call your stack of stuff, for me it’s mosquito list. I’ve heard Cusa refer to his, whatever it is he does, he won’t talk about it [01:43:00] as his cue. It’s so nice to be able to be wandering around the house, see a nail that needs to be pounded in or removed and say, Hey, dingus. [01:43:09] Merlin: Um, so of course I still have to think about this. Hey, Dingus, uh, add, fix the nail to my mosquito list. [01:43:15] Christina: Mm-hmm. [01:43:16] Merlin: And because of the regressions in, in Siri, I dunno if you all have heard the latest a TP all the way through, but oh my god, it’s, it really is kind of mindboggling that these assistants aren’t as good as they were in 2015. [01:43:32] Christina: I’m, [01:43:33] Jeff: incredible. [01:43:34] Merlin: Just heard it. You just heard me like, [01:43:36] Christina: Like it’s, it’s awful. [01:43:38] Merlin: Hey Siri, remind me to call Christina when I arrive at the house in two hours. [01:43:46] Brett: Clunk, crickets. [01:43:50] Merlin: are you here? You’re here, aren’t you? Oh, no, lemme guess you’re gonna create a custom playlist for me. ’cause I wanted to see if you were turned on. Oh, I have to. Oh, oh, hang on, hang on. [01:44:00] Oh, I thought our system didn’t work anymore, but then I had to empty the bucket on the D made a fire, so I touched the AirPod and now, now it’s playing Turn on again by Genesis everywhere. [01:44:10] Merlin: And I [01:44:10] Jeff: I, I asked it. I asked it to tell me the news, and it read a Wikipedia article about the Jews. [01:44:16] Merlin: Hey Siri, what month is it? [01:44:18] Christina: Exactly that. That’s the best one. You it well, can’t tell you. [01:44:21] Merlin: 22nd, 2025. March [01:44:24] Jeff: oh, [01:44:24] Christina: Oh, they [01:44:25] Merlin: That’s not the Whoa, [01:44:26] Christina: They, they, they saw, they, they saw the grouper article about what month [01:44:29] Merlin: Gruber, this is to inform you that actually it’s great at knowing what month it is. If you have a parser that can run on the sound in the air, it could automatically parse that using a script of your own design and that would be able to send that, push that as a push notification. [01:44:43] Merlin: It would be able to push that right to your device. [01:44:46] Jeff: duh. [01:44:47] Merlin: duh. I thought you liked Pearl. Ooh, I’m not angry. [01:44:53] Brett: speaking of all these apps that we all in our, in our little world, they’re all like easy [01:45:00] mentions. Um, part of the thing I found most frustrating about shadowing one person at work [01:45:07] Merlin: I can’t imagine [01:45:08] Jeff: Was that you were shadowing one person [01:45:10] Merlin: yes, but like somebody who doesn’t know how to do shit, you know how to do it. Must drive [01:45:13] Brett: yeah, well, so one of the things, part of their job was to reply with these kind of canned replies to different situations. And [01:45:24] Jeff: Okay. [01:45:24] Brett: had, they have multiple confluence pages, and I don’t know if you guys have used Confluence, but it is very slow and loading different pages takes forever. And to reply to an email, they would open their browser, go to Confluence, navigate to the page, find that section of the page, copy it, go back to their email program and paste it. [01:45:53] Brett: And basically it amounted to maybe seven snippets that, that could be [01:46:00] like with like text expander [01:46:01] Merlin: It would be, it’ll be like having a new key cut every time you needed to get in your house. [01:46:05] Christina: right. [01:46:06] Brett: It was so painful. It was so painful. She’s like, now I’ll show you a trick. So this, this, [01:46:15] Christina: I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll show you a trick. I got bookmarks. I got a bookmark for all these things to make it [01:46:21] Merlin: And then I’m clicking, I’m clicking, I’m copying, I’m clicking, I’m pasting. Watch what’s I’m gonna show you a quick way to do this. I’m finding my menu, I’m clicking. [01:46:31] Brett: it was, it was infuriating. I, I didn’t even, I, I had, at that point, we were an hour in and I had shut up. [01:46:39] Christina: no, [01:46:39] Brett: wasn’t gonna te teach her about text expander. [01:46:42] Christina: No, you’re not. No, no, no. You’re not. [01:46:43] Brett: this is just my job now. Anyway. It doesn’t [01:46:46] Christina: Well, right. And, and you’re also like, I’m not gonna get into how like, uh, tech Expander works or even using the built in expansion, you know, on like, uh, you know, on a Mac or, or, or, or on Windows or whatever. I’m not, not gonna bother with it because you are not gonna use it. [01:46:58] Christina: So, or, or even the [01:47:00] features that like, might be built into like Gmail or whatever app you’re using, like, or Outlook or whatever. I’m assuming you can set up things like that. [01:47:06] Merlin: People who still don’t know capital A and like Capital and capital O, people who are still just walking around like typing, you know, it’s crazy making. [01:47:17] Christina: Yeah. No. At a certain point you’re like, okay, I got it. I’m, if this is where our candid things go, I will script this myself, but I’m not gonna bother telling you anything ’cause you’re not gonna use it anyway, [01:47:26] Brett: Right. Exactly. All right. Who’s left? [01:47:30] Christina: Jeff. [01:47:31] Jeff: Christina. [01:47:32] Christina: No, I did. I [01:47:32] Jeff: No. You went with the tabs. With the tabs. Merlin The Value of Control Center Customization [01:47:35] Merlin: Control center on [01:47:38] Merlin: iOS, control center on IOS. Um, because now there’s stuff that you can do. Um, you’ve always been able to, I don’t know, you know, I don’t care how long it’s been, how it is, I’m just gonna say words. It’s so neat that you can drag stuff [01:47:57] Merlin: around, put things where you want, [01:47:59] Merlin: any [01:48:00] [01:48:00] Christina: are multiple sections now. [01:48:01] Brett: Yep, [01:48:02] Merlin: Well let’s, let’s start with just, this is kind of cool, right? First of all, anything with a camera icon always goes in the upper right, as we know from Nevin Meen, that’s the only place, anything where a camera goes, but you put it wherever you want. But, you know, I started thinking more and more like, uh, well, and I’m just gonna walk ’cause I’m a dumb guy from the Midwest. [01:48:19] Merlin: I’m just gonna walk you through some dumb guy stuff. One is, hey, you know, I don’t need a lot of the stuff that’s here, which doesn’t matter except in so far as I’m not treating this like a, sorry to use one of my phrases. An active working area like this, to me, this is an area where things are happening. [01:48:34] Merlin: We don’t put garbage in an active working area. So on some level now, I started thinking about, oh gosh, there’s probably stuff I don’t need in here. Maybe stuff again, stuff that I keep. Anybody ever done this? Keep stuff in your doc. Keep stuff in your menu. You ever have stuff around? ’cause it’s just always been there. [01:48:50] Merlin: You maybe even don’t know what it is. Not you guys, but some people have done that and that becomes a little bit, you get a little dumb when you stop noticing things like that. So it started out as simple as, [01:49:00] huh, move these around, remove some of these. And then I started adding a few, I changed the size of certain [01:49:06] Christina: Mm-hmm. [01:49:08] Merlin: but then just ’cause this works for me, you know, I use things for my stuff. [01:49:14] Merlin: Um, I added a new item to add something in things easy add, add adds a new, um, in inbox entry, I got another one that’s just a shortcut. That does nothing but take whatever audio is playing and runs it through my AirPods Max. It does one thing. That’s it. Uh, stuff like, you know, low battery, all that kind of stuff. [01:49:35] Merlin: Here’s a huge one, and this is kind of when it all changed, is that this is a button [01:49:40] Jeff: Merlin is holding his phone to [01:49:42] Merlin: for creating a new item in the app, Daum, D-A-Y-T-U-M. And as it happens, date him by the guy. Who’s the guy? [01:49:50] Jeff: Danny [01:49:50] Brett: I don’t, I don’t remember. [01:49:52] Merlin: Dailey. [01:49:53] Jeff: Duck Datu. [01:49:53] Merlin: Donald Duck.[01:50:00] [01:50:00] Brett: I’ll look it up. You continue talking. [01:50:03] Merlin: Don’t boss me. What was I talking about? Anyways, datum. And so the datum, uh, it’s, it’s a thing for tracking things and there’s items, items have, cat can have categories. They can have attributes. You know, it’s really, really cool. And I use it for when I take medicine, when I take an edible, like whatever. It just goes into their, why does that matter? [01:50:24] Merlin: I don’t know. It is not worth explaining to you if you don’t already get it. But let’s just say I can export that as a CSV or A-J-S-O-N and integrate it with all of my Apple Health data and do things in chat GPT that you find really annoying. It’s the best. So add something to date ’em. It’s right there. [01:50:41] Merlin: So, so, so what does that mean? That means my phone is in, its, nothing’s happening position. Nothing. I pull down from the top and now one click, two click. Done. [01:50:53] Jeff: yeah. [01:50:53] Merlin: I didn’t unlock the phone overtly. I only got four spots in the dock. That right there. Stop [01:51:00] right there. That is magic. Go in and look at stuff. You, you, this could be, you know how it’s already kind of neat, that spotlight on iOS is a little like, you know, launch Borrower spotlight on a Mac, but like, this would take it even further. [01:51:11] Merlin: Now, to whomever said that before, I think Christina, the sections, you know, you can now add a button at least on the beta. Sorry, this will probably be in the, in the public soon. But you can add like an ambient music button. That’ll just play a playlist of ambient music. You know what those Hollywood fat cats don’t tell you, you can make that link to any playlist you have. [01:51:30] Jeff: Oh, nice. [01:51:32] Merlin: a single button that you associate with, in my case, my getting pumped. I have three getting pumped up playlists, my favorite of which is the studio version of Born Slippy Knucks and a live version from Belgium of Born Slippy. I can put that right here and click it. That’s right there and I’m, I’m almost done. [01:51:50] Merlin: But the other page stuff, fantastic. So I’ve got a section now lemme just point out though, I don’t know how, how many folks know this When you do that poll, I can’t see this because I’m doing it [01:52:00] backwards. You can go do a long ass poll that will take you to your lower sections. I’m now, you saw what I did? [01:52:07] Merlin: One poll. I’m in the fourth. I’m in the fourth [01:52:09] Brett: Oh, wow. [01:52:10] Christina: and it has like [01:52:11] Jeff: ah. [01:52:11] Brett: this. [01:52:12] Merlin: So if I put, look at my home stuff, right? This is stuff at my house. This is stuff at my O Office. [01:52:21] Jeff: has done a long [01:52:22] Merlin: Long pull down that. Right? So take everything about the, the main thing I wanted to tell you is, hey guys, check out control center. It’s really cool. And notice stuff you can put on that first page, but now you can make your own pages. [01:52:34] Merlin: I know you know that. I know you read nine to five Mac, but what did you do last week to actually operationalize that? Did you take a half a goddamn minute to think about a way you can make that better? Yeah, I know you know it. That in seven bucks will get you a cup of coffee. What the fuck are you doing to make your phone work better? [01:52:52] Merlin: Put stuff in control center. Use it in long drag. [01:52:55] Jeff: sure is two. Two. Nickels will make a dime. [01:52:58] Merlin: Ah, frog add wings. Wouldn’t bump [01:53:00] possess a hopping. [01:53:00] Jeff: hey, [01:53:01] Merlin: You got chairs, you gotta dinette set. You got no chairs, you got dick. I asked my wife, she got more sense. I dunno. It’s got yodas [01:53:06] Jeff: we add eggs, we can have bacon and eggs if we add bacon. [01:53:10] Merlin: And when there was no, when, when there was no pork, we ate foul. When there was, when there was no foul. [01:53:16] Brett: Case and Nicholas Felton. [01:53:18] Merlin: When Nick, that’s the one when there was no foul. [01:53:21] Merlin: We ate sand, we ate sand, we ate sand. You know it’s a very quotable movie. Is Ra [01:53:27] Jeff: is that from Raven, Arizona? You know that I just played my [01:53:29] Merlin: It was a rocky place from a seed could [01:53:31] Jeff: my seed could not find purchase [01:53:34] Merlin: I’m, I’m, she got you on a pretty short leash, don’t she? If you don’t breastfeed for Relax, turn to the Rock. [01:53:45] Jeff: Barren place full of rocks or my seed could not find purchase. [01:53:49] Brett: right. [01:53:49] Merlin: Yate Sand. And, and here’s the thing though. You know what else in terms of these little beauties nobody cares about? I love my comfort food on the YouTube. Shut up. I like, I like my comfort. I find between seasons of Task [01:54:00] Master. ’cause that’s my main thing. Y’all should watch out. [01:54:02] Jeff: you [01:54:02] Jeff: for [01:54:02] Merlin: Taskmaster New Zealand. [01:54:04] Merlin: Oh, did we, we talk, did we, did you watch New Zealand at all? You watch straight one. Oh my God. Um, sometimes you’ll just find the best fucking stuff somebody. I don’t, I never wanna say these things. Somebody created an account [01:54:19] Jeff: Woo. [01:54:19] Merlin: and it’s uploaded a fuck ton of old VHS recorded copies of inside the actor studio from the late nineties and early [01:54:27] Christina: Holy shit. That was my favorite show. I [01:54:30] Merlin: I know, I know. [01:54:31] Christina: I loved Bravo [01:54:32] Merlin: you’d be, you’d be surprised. Yeah, you’d be, so it used to be a and e it was on like, and, and it was, but it’s so funny. And then of course, will Ferrell did a funny character, but only because we all loved the way that guy was. His little like surprises, you know? Would you, were you aware that when you were three years old, you had a scab that was saved by your aunt? [01:54:48] Merlin: Here’s that scab. [01:54:49] Christina: he. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I just, I, I just had a realization, and someone else has probably come up with this before, but, but this is the first time this has occurred to me, and I don’t think I’ve heard this hot ones, is [01:55:00] the modern day, um, inside the actor studio. [01:55:02] Brett: Oh [01:55:02] Jeff: Ooh. [01:55:03] Brett: Yeah, [01:55:03] Merlin: Ah, I like that. That is good. I, the one I wanted to commend you guys to and it [01:55:08] Brett: that’s actually a really good way to explain hot ones [01:55:11] Christina: Oh my God. Yes. It’s inside the actor studio with hot wings [01:55:17] Merlin: Yeah. Instead of, instead of the Proust questionnaire, you got the Apollo sauce. You know what I mean? [01:55:21] Christina: right. But it’s the same type of thing. Like he does, he does the [01:55:24] Merlin: I love, I love women, but I deny them my essence. know, I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and in purify all of our precious bodily fluids. [01:55:39] Jeff: Hmm. Dark [01:55:40] Brett: Are we, did we just go Dr. Strange Love. [01:55:45] Merlin: I can look. [01:55:50] Brett: All right. Jeff, what’s your pick? I, [01:55:51] Jeff: one. Is that my, oh, sorry. My mic. My control center matches the arc of my thumb, [01:55:57] Merlin: Yeah. [01:55:58] Jeff: Um, [01:55:59] Merlin: I do [01:56:00] that all the time. I’ve started making pages that I just, again, put things not where you think they go, look, I’ve [01:56:05] Jeff: yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:56:06] Merlin: doing stuff ’cause that’s where my thumb wants to fall. I’m. [01:56:09] Jeff: my son thinks I’m fucking crazy, so what the fuck is this? I was like, just go to college. Mine is, it’s funny you brought up datum ’cause mine is the second time I’ve done this, but it’s chronicling, which I started now a year and a half ago. And, and I had tried datum, which I also really like. [01:56:27] Jeff: Um, and, and for some reason chronicling stuck. That stuff doesn’t stick [01:56:31] Merlin: that. I like the woman who makes that is so [01:56:33] Jeff: Yeah, Rebecca Owen, and she’s, she’s, it’s just a single developer. She does a very nice job. She does, uh, it’s a very sort of slow, steady pace of small, meaningful updates. Um, and, and is really just sort of like, just, just, it’s a wonderful, it’s just a very like, you know, humane loving app. [01:56:50] Jeff: And um, and it allows you, similar to data and you create categories. You create, you know, specific things. You can go in and log when it was, you can, you log the time and then you can make a little note. And the way I’ve [01:57:00] ended up using it most, um, mostly is actually not how I started using it. So I have a, a category that has like live music in IT series or movies, finished some reading. [01:57:10] Jeff: I didn’t do like a read a book, it’s just I did some reading and then I write what it was. And I have this list that again, I can export as a CSV and the live music, I can go back and just see the shows that somehow I go to live shows again for the first time in forever, even though it hurts my body very badly. [01:57:24] Jeff: Um, and then I have, you know, I have like these really meaningful journals for me, which is like when I call my dad, which isn’t often as I should call your mother, I make a little note of like just three things we talked about and then I can kind of see that [01:57:38] Merlin: I cannot endorse this highly enough. [01:57:40] Jeff: and then when I [01:57:40] Merlin: is what I call a journal calendar, like anywhere that you can capture something that happened. This is the beauty of the calendar. A calendar tells you you’ve committed to doing something in the future and you’ve already done something in the past. [01:57:51] Merlin: That’s two benefits of a calendar. Anything that helps you capture that for whatever works for your brain, just start doing it now. It’s not an old [01:58:00] person thing, but it sure doesn’t hurt as you get older. [01:58:02] Jeff: It’s great and I’ve always been terrible about doing that in my calendar. And this is the first time that I’ve steadily, so I have one that’s for travel and I just say a word about day one, a word about day two and I can go back and remember that. And then, you know, of course I can export it and, and with the TV and series stuff it’s, or the series and movie stuff, it’s super fun ’cause I put that in the chat GBT and just look for like patterns. [01:58:21] Jeff: I can just say like, you know, how many cinematographers show up more than once in this list or whatever. So I love that app. Really, really love it. I’ve ended up using it, not how I thought I would and this is not the kind of thing that I usually hang onto for this long. [01:58:33] Jeff: So Rebecca Owen, thank you for your really cool work. [01:58:37] Brett: Yeah. Rebecca’s done a couple of giveaways now on my blog, and she is a delight to work with. Um, makes great apps. [01:58:45] Jeff: That’s [01:58:45] Merlin: you, Rebecca. Thank you, rugamba. Thank you. Anybody who’s out there making things for people in a humane [01:58:50] Brett: Mm-hmm. [01:58:51] Jeff: yes. Beautiful. [01:58:53] Brett: Um, I, I, I’ll save it for another week, but, um, I started using MacWhisper [01:59:00] to [01:59:00] Jeff: finally added. Yeah, sorry. [01:59:03] Brett: it can, it can record Zoom meetings [01:59:05] Merlin: been doing this week. [01:59:07] Brett: and then it has AI built in. So I can record the Zoom meeting, and then at the end of the Zoom meeting I can have it remind me what the key points were [01:59:16] Jeff: And it just added speaker recognition if you’re doing [01:59:18] Merlin: It kind of works. It’s getting [01:59:20] Jeff: and it kind of works. [01:59:21] Brett: it, it, it works. [01:59:22] Brett: Okay. [01:59:22] Merlin: The dream, the dream of transcribing all of the episodes and sticking in the dingus, [01:59:27] Christina: We’re almost there. [01:59:29] Brett: yeah. [01:59:29] Jeff: So close. [01:59:30] Brett: All right. Final Thoughts and Gratitude [01:59:31] Brett: Well thanks everybody. We did [01:59:33] Jeff: Yeah, this was a [01:59:34] Brett: two hours. Two hours. That’s a, that’s a pretty standard Merlin episode for [01:59:38] Jeff: never moved. [01:59:38] Christina: the people and thank you Berlin so much for, for spending all your time with us ’cause we love [01:59:42] Merlin: Oh my gosh. Thank, thank you guys for having me. You’re, you’re so sweet to, to put up with me. It’s really nice to be here. [01:59:47] Jeff: Great to have you here. [01:59:49] Brett: All right, well everyone get some sleep. [01:59:51] Christina: some sleep [02:00:00]

Brett and Christina dive into a sleepless whirlwind of tech chatter and media binges in this wildly overtired episode. Brett recounts his struggles with insomnia, trazodone, and Gabapentin while lamenting the lack of manic productivity. The pair highlight a futuristic cyberpunk novel and tease an exciting author interview. Together, they traverse the realms of new Macs, Framework desktops, and nostalgic gaming. Rogue Amoeba’s audio software gets a fanfare, and gratitude overflows for essential apps like Audio Hijack and AlDente Pro. Expect deep dives, late-night coding, and lots of tech talk. Sponsors Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired! Show Links LOST Severance Yellowjackets Marked 2 Apple reveals M3 Ultra, taking Apple silicon to a new extreme Apple unveils new Mac Studio, the most powerful Mac ever, featuring M4 Max and new M3 Ultra New Framework announced All8Bit G11 Pro AlDente Pro Audio Hijack Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Updates 01:13 Exciting Book Interview Announcement 03:57 Mental Health Corner: Sleep Struggles 10:37 Media Consumption and Mental Health 27:44 Sponsor: Incogni 31:03 Tech Updates: Mark and Envy Ultra 41:11 Exploring Setapp’s Developer-Centric Approach 42:12 Subscription Models and Lifetime Licenses 46:27 New Mac Announcements and Benchmarks 54:54 Framework’s New Desktop and Laptop Innovations 01:00:17 Retro Gaming and Emulation Challenges 01:06:17 Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba 01:16:12 Battery Management with Al Dente Pro 01:22:17 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript LOST and Found Introduction and Podcast Updates [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. I am joined, as always, by Brett Terpstra. Jeff Severns Guntzel is not with us this week, although we will have him back soon. Brett, what’s going on? We are, we are two weeks in a row. Our podcast is Acting Like a Normal Podcast. [00:00:20] Christina: How are you? [00:00:21] Brett: Right, like, and we have sponsors lined up for the foreseeable future, by which I mean like a month, but like this could be, this could be for some period of time, a regular podcast, um, which, you know, we’ve. How long have we been doing this? [00:00:41] Christina: Like, like 11 or 12 years. [00:00:44] Brett: Yeah. With, with some extended breaks in there, but, but every once in a while we get into a groove. [00:00:52] Christina: Hey, look, we were in a, we were on a groove for like two years. We were like on a really good place. We were like in a really good place, but no, we’re, we’re in a groove. Um, [00:01:00] and, uh, and it’s awesome that we have sponsors and we hope we can be more consistent. Um, I don’t know. [00:01:06] Christina: It’s, it’s good for me to have like routine. So, um, I’m, I’m, I’m glad to be back and recording with you. Exciting Book Interview Announcement [00:01:13] Brett: I’m really excited next week. So I, here’s the story and, and I won’t tell the whole story next week because I’ll tell it this week, but I am on these lists for like Penguin and random house, and they send me galley copies of books as if. I’m like a bookstore or a book reviewer or something. And I don’t know how I got on these lists, but yeah, I’ll take free books. [00:01:40] Brett: I’ll take free, like pre press books. That’s cool. Um, and I got this one called two truths and a lie, and it’s a cyberpunk. Like Gibson ask, not like modern cyberpunk. It’s like Gibson, like Mona Lisa overdrive era, [00:02:00] Gibson style, cyberpunk. And, um, and it’s all, it plays with the idea of like memory and data as currency. [00:02:09] Brett: And, um, it’s like a queer love story at its heart. And I, I loved it. I loved it. And the agent that sent me the book, um, got, got us an interview with the author. So next week we’ll get to talk to them. And I don’t know if you guys, like you guys got copies, but you’re under no pressure to read them. Cause I’ve read the whole thing twice. [00:02:34] Brett: So like I can lead the interview, but if you have, like, if you’ve read any of it. Then, then you can chime in on, on plot points and whatnot. [00:02:44] Christina: Um, so as of this, as of the, the time that, um, uh, we are recording this, I’ve read about half of it and I really actually enjoyed it. So I will, I will have read the whole thing, uh, by next week. Um, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I, look, I, [00:03:00] I, um, I sometimes get sent things randomly, um, I, I used to be on lists, but I haven’t been in a while, and I don’t know how you got on the list, but I’m, like, jealous of, of you for it, um, but one of those things, like, A, if someone’s going to go out of the way, if we’re going to have an author on, I really do try to do the homework and do the assignment, um, first of all, but, but, but B, like, I was actually, like, when you first told us about it, I was like, huh, this actually sounds like something that, and I’m not a huge fiction reader, but I was like, of the fiction, this is the sort of thing that I would, yeah. [00:03:32] Christina: Read anyway, and so, um, I, I’ve, I’ve really, I’ve really liked it, so, I’m excited to talk to the author about it, [00:03:40] Brett: it’s good. It’s gritty. The, it was, I think it’s set in LA. It’s underwater. It’s, it’s sinking into the ocean. It’s fun. [00:03:50] Christina: for sure. [00:03:50] Brett: It’s dark and, and scary and gritty and fun. Um, all right. Mental Health Corner: Sleep Struggles [00:03:57] Brett: So mental health corner. [00:04:00] Um, I, I think it’s perfectly apropos to mention that I am once again getting super shitty sleep, and I don’t know why I’m up to 200 milligrams of trazodone in addition to 1500 milligrams of uh, Gabapentin, and it still only keeps me down for about five or six hours. [00:04:25] Brett: And that’s some heavy sedation that I’m just like waking up from. [00:04:30] Christina: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s intense, and then, so, how, how are things going with, like, the Mania stuff? [00:04:38] Brett: Uh, so here, okay. So the, the trick with trazodone is trazodone has antidepressant properties. Meaning if I were actually manic trazodone would have made me sleep less, but trazodone made me sleep a little bit more. Um, I can’t go any higher for fear [00:05:00] of triggering a manic episode, but my psychiatrist is pretty convinced that whatever is going on now is your more classic insomnia and not mania. [00:05:12] Brett: So I, I tend to agree. Like I’m not. Well, I am getting up and coding in the early hours of the morning. It’s mostly just because I can’t sleep. Um, and I need something to do with myself and I, I don’t have other outlets, so I code, but it’s not like manic coding. I’m not, I’m not putting out huge new projects every week. [00:05:39] Brett: I’m just, uh, [00:05:40] Christina: You’re just tired. [00:05:42] Brett: Yeah. [00:05:43] Christina: So how do you feel about that? Like, like, like, like, I know that this mental health corner and not a Christina question hour, but I, I’m, I’m going to like ask questions. So how does that make you feel? Because I know that that’s always been something that you’ve, you’ve been able to get like the productivity that you’ve gotten out of your mania has in [00:06:00] some ways, I think been like, uh, um, [00:06:04] Brett: Essential to my career. Yes, [00:06:06] Christina: Well, I was going to say an asset in some ways, but also something like you’ve just come to kind of like learn to like deal with your, your, your life around stuff like that and like, and figure out how to handle it. So when you have the insomnia, which is not accompanied by mania, which is my life, to be honest with you, a lot of the times, not, not lately, but, but historically. How, how, how does, how do you handle that from a mental health perspective? How do you handle that from like a, do I feel, you know, like I’m doing in a perspective, like how, how does that work for you? [00:06:33] Brett: that is a really good question. Um, I, I don’t, I, I don’t like not sleeping either way. Um, when I’m manic and I’m producing like crazy new things that I it. Hadn’t even thought of two days before and then I have an idea and it just spills out and I bring it to, to like fruition like that’s a great feeling even on zero hours of sleep, [00:07:00] but consistently getting like four to six hours of sleep every night for a period of time just wears me down and slows down like I can’t concentrate. [00:07:14] Brett: And if I do hyper focus, it’s not like manic hyper focus, it’s, it’s like slow, slow hyper focus. And, and I don’t, I don’t, I don’t care for it. I don’t cotton to it at all. Um, I, I would rather, I would rather deal with three to five days of mania and, and boost my productivity than this like extended drag that I’m going through right now. [00:07:46] Christina: no. I mean, I think that makes sense. And that, that’s kind of why I asked because, um, and certainly, and, and, and I, I hope that this is, uh, Interpreted the way that it’s intended because I, I don’t mean that I’m, I’m envious of the, the, the mania or, or [00:08:00] the, or the bipolar. Cause I’m definitely not. Um, but, but I have always been slightly envious of like when before now, like that when you’ve had like insomnia, like you’ve actually been able to be like hyperproductive, whereas my insomnia, like is not, um, sometimes I can. [00:08:16] Christina: I mean, okay. I can use that to read a lot. Um, and I guess I can get some productivity out of that sort of, it depends on what I’m reading, but a lot of times I’m not reading anything of necessarily a value, right? And sometimes it’s not even that sometimes it’s just like, you’re literally, at least for me, I’m literally just like laying there or worse. [00:08:36] Christina: I’m just like dicking around on the internet and I’m not able to do on my phone. I’m not able to do really get anything of value done. And it sucks. [00:08:44] Brett: here’s the more existential question behind all of this. Um, when you say of value, do you mean of value as far as your career and kind of a capitalist mentality goes? [00:08:58] Christina: Um, yes and [00:09:00] no. So yeah, that is definitely part of it. But then there’s also a thing where I’m like, I’m not even necessarily reading like, like what I would call quality literature. Like, you know what I mean? Like, or, or quality anything like I’m going down rabbit holes [00:09:13] Brett: of like filling time really [00:09:15] Christina: I’m, I’m going to rabbit holes of internet bullshit that might make for a good anecdote on a podcast episode at some point, because someone needs to know the history of something bizarre and people like, how the hell do you know this? [00:09:26] Christina: And this is how I know this. It does happen quite a lot and people always ask like, how do you know all this shit? Well, the real answer is that, you know, I have a really good memory, but the, the, the, the real answer is, you know, if I have four hours to kill in a night and I’m just, and I’m not able to sleep, I’m reading stupid shit on the internet or watching stupid videos. [00:09:46] Christina: And so, And like it to me, I’m like, okay, well, why don’t you watch good television shows? Why don’t you read good like literature? Right. Or, or, or whatever. Um, to say nothing of like doing things for the capitalistic [00:10:00] pursuit, but like, even like in an artistic pursuit, like I, I can’t defend it, you know, but, but, but, but, but part of it is because like, I’m in like this, like. Sometimes, you know, you just can’t sleep and maybe I can like, find my way to like, you know, play games or do something else and, and, and have fun, but sometimes like you’re in this kind of like a few way state where I’m like, I’m not awake and alert enough to do anything that or to focus on anything that would be. [00:10:24] Christina: Like, good. Um, but I’m, I’m, you know, too, you know, I’m too tired to do that but I’m not tired enough to sleep so I’m just [00:10:32] Brett: yeah, so you consume trash yeah, I [00:10:36] Christina: So, yeah. Media Consumption and Mental Health [00:10:37] Brett: like I don’t I don’t watch TV in the wee hours of the morning, but When I’m up at three by like seven at night, I’m a vegetable and like I’ll turn on the TV and I just watched all of 30 rock, um, beginning to end in the course of like two weeks. And yeah, it’s funny. It’s, [00:11:00] it’s witty. [00:11:00] Brett: It’s, It’s essentially garbage. Like it’s all in all, it’s a pretty vapid show. [00:11:09] Christina: Yeah, I mean [00:11:10] Brett: I love it. I’m not, I’m not dissing it. Like it was, it was fun. And as soon as it was over, I missed it. And like every night I’m like, Oh, I miss 30 rock. Cause that, it takes me, it takes me about a week to get over finishing a show. [00:11:26] Brett: Just like finishing a book. Um, takes me a week to like, let go of. That kind of comfort zone I had hit with whatever media I was consuming. Um, but I’ve started lost and this is still mental health corner, but I’ve started, like I found lost infinitely frustrating and very disappointing the first time I saw it. [00:11:51] Christina: Yeah. Now, [00:11:51] Brett: I haven’t. [00:11:53] Christina: did, did you watch it? Was that like 20 years ago? [00:11:55] Brett: When it was on, [00:11:56] Christina: Okay. Okay. [00:11:57] Brett: And, and I haven’t watched [00:12:00] it since then. Um, so now I’m going at it with like, fresh eyes, and I assume I’m still gonna be disappointed. I am, I am prepared for that. [00:12:11] Christina: Yeah. [00:12:12] Brett: I do remember it being a really fun ride up until then. [00:12:16] Christina: well, uh, and, and, and, and I know this is still a mental health corner, but like this is, this is sort of interesting. So show that I’ve been watching, um, a lot that, that came back a few weeks ago. Is, and I don’t know, I can’t remember if we’ve talked about it or not, is uh, is Yellow Jackets. [00:12:30] Christina: Um, [00:12:31] Brett: yeah, we have talked about it. I haven’t seen it though. [00:12:34] Christina: Okay, so it’s back, um, on Paramount and like the, the first five episodes have aired, so like half the season has aired. And some people are pretty meh on it, and some people like it. I like this season so far more than I liked season two, but, But I, I’ve had to go into this show, especially like there was, because of the writer’s strike and the actor’s strike, there was like, it’s basically been two years since it’s been on. [00:12:57] Christina: And so, like, a lot of fans have had a [00:13:00] lot of time, uh, to think about the show, and it’s very clear in my opinion. That the fans have put a lot more thought into the show than the writers have and I don’t mean that as a slight against the writers, but the writers made the disservice, I think, of telling everybody, well, it’s kind of like Lost, but, but unlike Lost, we have a whole five year game plan. [00:13:21] Christina: We have everything figured out. And as soon as they said that the first season, I was like, you’re fucking liars. fucking liars because that’s exactly what Lost said. That is, that is exactly what Damon Lindelof said and J. J. Abrams. They’re like, we had the whole thing planned out. They did not have it planned out, reader. [00:13:36] Christina: They did not. And so, uh, I, uh, I, I already was a little bit hesitant on that. And then the decisions they’re making on Yellowjacket, some of them I think are, are good. Some of them are, are questionable. But, but it’s, it’s having kind of those Lost vibes to the point where I’m like, okay, this could go either way. [00:13:54] Christina: But, and I really wanted to get a fourth season, but I already feel like the, the, the feedback from [00:14:00] some of the normies on Reddit, um, not the lesbians on Twitter, um, to very different demographics. The lesbians on Twitter are having the time of their lives. The normies on Reddit are not. Um, but like, and, and, and, and the, the, the people in Tik Tok have never watched television before and don’t understand, um, you know, the, the whole point of an antihero, I digress, but like, but like, but it’s definitely getting into that lost vein where you’re like, okay, the right is really good. [00:14:24] Christina: But I’m, I’m having almost like lost PTSD because I’m like, yeah, it’s really good until it’s not. Game of Thrones was kind of like that too, right? Like, like Game of Thrones was, was I think in some ways even more disappointing than Lost because like it was going so well for so long and then we were just like, what the fuck, you guys? [00:14:40] Brett: Right. Um, my side project, I watched the first couple episodes of lost and then thought, what happened to these actors? Um, and I started like, I am D being and obviously, eventually, and Lily went on to like, be the wasp in Ant Man and the Wasp. [00:15:00] Um, uh, Sawyer went on to He has an, I think it’s on HBO, [00:15:06] Christina: Mm hmm. [00:15:07] Brett: uh, something called, well, he did colony [00:15:10] Christina: Yeah. [00:15:10] Brett: And Hurley is now in an HBO show called the bookie. [00:15:17] Christina: Yeah. Um, Jack has had some legal problems, like, well, they’ve all had [00:15:21] Brett: Really? [00:15:22] Christina: I, I don’t think anything was proven, but he has not in May 2012, his lo this is from Wikipedia, so I’m just reading from Wikipedia here. His Lost co star Dominic Monaghan tweeted about Fox, he beats women, not isolated incidents, often. [00:15:36] Brett: Jesus Christ. Okay. [00:15:38] Christina: Uh, so, [00:15:39] Brett: going to taint my viewing of this show. [00:15:42] Christina: I mean, and who knows, he was never charged with anything, and, and, uh, but he has not done anything since, uh, well, he was in six episodes of a thing called Caught, but like, basically, this is why he hasn’t done [00:15:55] Brett: caught to my list because caught looked, caught looked interesting and I had never [00:16:00] heard of it when I was. It’s filtering through these IMDB [00:16:02] Christina: I’ve never heard of a side. This is Australian. Um, [00:16:06] Brett: is a woman beater, I don’t feel a need to follow his [00:16:09] Christina: I mean, I don’t know if he’s a woman beater or not. I know that these are allegations, so I, these are allegations, so, so, you’d never, like, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, [00:16:21] Brett: will quote unquote do my own research, [00:16:24] Christina: yeah, do, yeah, but, but I was gonna say, [00:16:25] Brett: does taint things. [00:16:26] Christina: well, I mean, look, that whole cast, if you were, I don’t, if you probably don’t remember this, um, but, because you didn’t care about things like this, but I did, like, when it was airing, because they filmed on Hawaii. [00:16:37] Christina: And all those actors got fucking shit faced all the time and got popped for DUIs. And like, like there was like one season, like, like four of them got arrested. Like Michelle Rodriguez, I got like, I think she had to actually do jail time, like in Los Angeles for like a day. And then they like released her because they were like, I think that she was too popular, frankly, um, in, in like the, the, the, the county jail in LA, they were like, [00:17:00] this isn’t going to work. [00:17:01] Christina: But, um, but honestly, the, that’s the one from Lost who’s had like the, Most successful career has been, uh, Michelle Rodriguez, right? Like it was without a doubt. [00:17:11] Brett: she was even on it. She’s not there at the beginning. [00:17:13] Christina: she’s not. She comes in in season two and she’s not in it the whole time. Um, and I would say, um, um, uh, what’s his face? Um, uh, uh, he’s, uh, he’s Nigerian. [00:17:23] Christina: Um, I believe, um, uh, uh, well, he’s English, but, but I think like, but his name is, is, is, is Nigerian. Um, he was, uh, uh, Mr. Echo. Um, he’s [00:17:34] Brett: don’t. Yeah. I haven’t gotten that far. I don’t remember this. [00:17:37] Christina: Yeah, he was in a lot of, yeah, because there were multiple members, uh, from the, the, the series Oz who were actors on it. And, and those, and those people have. All gone on to like continue to work, but, but, uh, but yeah, but that’s, that’s a fun thing for your, where are they now? [00:17:53] Brett: While we’re on a slight media diversion [00:17:56] Christina: Yes. [00:17:58] Brett: are you watching Severance? [00:17:59] Christina: [00:18:00] Yes. [00:18:01] Brett: Do you think that they have figured out where they’re going? [00:18:09] Christina: Yes. I, I, I feel [00:18:11] Brett: need, I need them to [00:18:12] Christina: I, I, I, I actually, I, okay, I know this seems weird. I feel like I trust Ben Stiller. [00:18:19] Brett: That’s not weird. Ben Stiller’s actually kind of weirdly a genius. [00:18:25] Christina: Yeah, no, he, he, he really is like, he’s, he’s a good [00:18:28] Brett: I mean, I say weirdly because we’re talking about Zoolander [00:18:32] Christina: Right, but we are, but, but also like, I think he, he hits like kind of highbrow, lowbrow, but also like he did like, he directed Reality Bites, which, No one remembers, right, um, that he was the one who directed that. The Ben Stiller Show was fantastic. Cable Guy was a weird movie. And it was probably not the right movie to come out of that time because that was when Jim Carrey was peak Jim Carrey and then you release this really weird, black, dark comedy that is not at all what you expect from a Jim [00:19:00] Carrey movie in 1997 and it, and it doesn’t do super well, but it’s an interesting film, right? [00:19:04] Christina: Like, uh, Zoolander is Ridiculous like other things ridiculous, but then you have like Tropic Thunder, which is one of the best movies [00:19:12] Brett: yeah. I just watched Tropic Thunder a couple weeks ago. It [00:19:15] Christina: one of the best movies of of of of the 20 of the 21st century. I will fucking say it genuinely I think Tropic Thunder is one. I think Robert Downey jr’s performance. [00:19:24] Christina: I think Tom Cruise’s performance Like I think the whole thing like works so he’s a weirdo he’s funny, but he’s also like very like smart and cerebral and So, I don’t know, I, I, weirdly, I, I feel like I trust, I trust, um, Ben [00:19:40] Brett: No, I really want to believe that. Um, Like, it keeps, they’re asking a lot of questions still, the way Lost was, like, Lost was just constantly asking questions, and then occasionally answering one, um, and I feel like Severance is asking a lot of questions, like, [00:20:00] fucking goats, right? Like, Or is this ever going to make sense? [00:20:04] Brett: Are we going to, is this going to be a polar bear situation? Um, like, are we gonna, are we going to get some kind of satisfaction on the goats? Um, like just things like that worry me, but like the fact that they, they do have like a great set of writers. Um. And while every episode tends to be directed by someone different, um, they do seem to be following a script, uh, you know, to some extent. [00:20:36] Christina: Well, I, I, well, here’s, here’s what’s interesting, um, and, uh, uh, ah, fuck it, I’ll use this as part of my mental health corner because I’ve been self, um, medicating with, like, media. Um, so, on Fridays, Separants and Yellow Jackets come out, and, and, like, I enjoy them both, but, like, Yellow Jackets, The first season I would have put in the closer to like prestige TV category and I would have [00:21:00] been like this is a show that like is kind of a bonkers premise. [00:21:03] Christina: And so the premise for anybody who is unfamiliar is that in 1996, like a, uh, like a high school girls soccer team is on their way to from New Jersey is on their way to the national competition in Seattle and they’re playing crashes. In the middle of the Canadian wilderness, and they have to deal with it. [00:21:21] Christina: And it’s kind of like a female Lord of the flies. And then at the same time, 25 years later in 2021, um, which now it’s 2025, but like that timeline has progressed much more slowly. So we don’t really know what year it is and in the future, but 25 years later. Some of the, the survivors are like living their lives and are trying to, to deal with things when, when people come back and are like reminding us, it’s like, this is what you did and any, and then more, more things to reveal and kind of like a, a, a dual timeline perspective. [00:21:50] Christina: And the first season I thought was. Just, and I still stand by, I thought it was like incredible television, like incredibly, incredibly well done. And, and I would put it like in the, the [00:22:00] prestige, light prestige category, right? Like, not the highs of like the mid 2010s TV, but like certainly really, really good. [00:22:07] Christina: Like, like not succession, but like a step above what else was on. And it was nominated for a number of Emmys and, and whatnot. Season 2 comes out. And I felt like they listened to Reddit too much and made some alterations and I didn’t really like some of the changes they made. I didn’t hate it. I, I, I, at all. [00:22:24] Christina: Um, but, um, you know, I think that there were, there were definitely signs at that point that I was like, you did not plan out the things that you’d planned out. Like, it was very clear to me that they, you know, ret, they, they, they retconned certain things. Like, they hadn’t thought about stuff as much as, as other shows maybe, you know, do. [00:22:41] Christina: And then season three, you know, coming back after like kind of a two year hiatus. Um, the, the, I still enjoy the show, but at this point it’s much more camp for me. Um, well, at least the, the, the modern timeline is that the, um, the, the, what’s happening to like the girls, like in the woods, like I still, I feel like that at this point, I feel like it’s two different shows, [00:23:00] but anyway, my point on this is, is that severance to me feels like, you know, white Lotus succession, like prior, like, like, like high end, like good prestige television. [00:23:10] Christina: Like [00:23:10] Brett: Or even like Breaking [00:23:11] Christina: Breaking Bad, well, completely, right? Breaking Bad, Mad Men, like, like, like, you know, The Sopranos, like, you know, when you think of, like, high quality television, like, Severance, I think, is gonna win every single Emmy this year, like, it is not even gonna be close, it’s gonna showgun the whole fucking thing. [00:23:25] Christina: Oh, yeah, it’s been crazy, right? The, the cinematography, like, every aspect of the show, like, it is, this is, this is the new succession in terms of, like, just, everybody else needs to just go home, because what are you even doing, right? And it’s not that there aren’t other good shows, it’s just, like, Nothing else is going to even compete with this. [00:23:41] Christina: Right. So, um, whereas like yellow jackets, it’s like fallen to me to be more like, I really love it, but it’s like, it’s like my trash, like a little bit like, like, like, like kind of fun. And it’s not trash. It’s just not that, that level. Right. Whereas I think at least right now, and [00:24:00] it could falter, but I feel like, you know, season two severs has really stepped things up. [00:24:05] Christina: And as long as they don’t, um, Like, I don’t know. I think that if they keep it to, I think that if they have like a set idea of, of what they’re going to do and they stick to it and they don’t try to overextend the arc of the show. That’s my only fear, right? Is that Apple or somebody is going to be like, Oh, let’s do more seasons of this. [00:24:28] Christina: And it’s like, no, you got it. You got to end things up. Right? Like, I know this is like the [00:24:33] Brett: it’s a show that has much like, like Breaking Bad or, or any of these, [00:24:39] Christina: succession. Yeah. Like it has an [00:24:41] Brett: like, yeah, they have, uh, they have an arc and, and the arc ends. And if you try, if you try to extend it beyond that, then you’re in no man’s territory and you end up with, uh, Um, and yeah, I really I want to see it come. I wanted to be satisfied. [00:24:59] Brett: I want [00:25:00] whatever happens. I don’t know, season three, four or five if it makes it that long. Um, or if or if the arc takes that [00:25:08] Christina: Yeah, but if it takes that [00:25:09] Brett: I just wanted to be satisfied. [00:25:11] Christina: no and and that’s what I’m hoping I’m hoping that like the people making it will do like Because and honestly, I think that’s what Breaking Bad did really well, like they had an arc, um, and, and I think that that was when Succession did amazingly, like they had four seasons, and you know that HBO wanted that, you know that they wanted that to go longer, um, because it won every award, and it was, you know, a huge water cooler kind of show, everybody was talking about it, it was really good, uh, and they were like, no, this, this is how this ends, and it, and it ended Perfectly. [00:25:41] Christina: Um, and, and that’s so satisfying. So I would rather have less, like, if you’re not going to be able to do it right, like with the show, like severance, right? Like, um, and, and it’s interesting because, uh, we talked about this, um, uh, over the weekend, like the, like the, the, the New York times like did like this big, you know, kind of profile of like the, the, the bell [00:26:00] labs buildings, you know, that they like based, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, the looks on and whatnot. [00:26:05] Christina: And like, it’s. You know, it’s definitely like, it’s the most streamed show I think of, of this, um, this year right now, like it’s, it’s a huge hit. So I hope that, I hope that they have it more under control than, I mean, look, Lost, in fairness to them, they had to do 22 episodes. And, and, and, and ABC was just like pushing the mystery and it was kind of like, um, You know, it was, it was unfortunate because it was originally compared to Twin Peaks, uh, which is the original, like, Burn, you know, F. [00:26:37] Christina: A. S. T. and Burnout mystery show. And Twin Peaks had the same problem, from what I recall. I was much too young when it originally aired, but like, it was this Genuinely like global fucking phenomenon and only lasted two seasons because David Lynch didn’t really have maybe it all figured out I think he did like he eventually got it right when they had the movie and then really I think where it crystallized was the, [00:27:00] the, um, Twin Peaks Return the Showtime series, which I thought was like a really Great, like come back in a way. [00:27:07] Christina: Cause I was like, okay, you, you tied everything up and you actually did like make this whole thing work, but most people don’t have, you know, 25 years to, to, to, to, to get through that. Right. So, so, you know, anyway. [00:27:25] Brett: All right. Well, that’s my mental health. Is that your mental [00:27:28] Christina: Yeah. Honestly, honestly, I think that’s also my mental health. Cause I’ve been, I don’t really have anything to add since the last time we talked. Um, except, uh, yeah, I’ve been like self caring with, with, with media. So, um, there we go. [00:27:40] Brett: Yeah. I, I feel like that’s, that me too. Um, do Sponsor: Incogni [00:27:44] Christina: actually, on that note, I was going to say, um, since we mentioned we have sponsors, can we go ahead and do our first, uh, sponsor [00:27:49] Brett: I was just going to ask you if you would like to do the incogni read. [00:27:53] Christina: Absolutely. This episode is sponsored by Incogni, a cutting edge service designed to safeguard your personal [00:28:00] data. So did you know that data brokers collect and sell your sensitive personal information? Because they do. That’s one of the reasons why you get phone calls and, and, you know, from, from, uh, random numbers and, and requests from people who know things that they shouldn’t. [00:28:14] Christina: And so this leads to unwanted spam, identity theft, and a loss of control over what’s shared online. And From people search sites to targeted scams, the risks are real and they’re affecting lives every single day. Here’s the good news. Incogni automates the removal of your personal information from these data brokers. [00:28:33] Christina: With just a few simple steps, you can create an account, allow Incogni to act on your behalf, and you receive progress updates while they work their magic. And so Incogni automatically contacts data brokers on your behalf to request the removal of your personal data. [00:28:48] Christina: And this seamless process ensures that your information is continuously monitored and it stays off the market. And so this significantly reduces your Uh, spam scams and identity [00:29:00] theft. I’ve been using, I know Brett has been using incognito for a couple of years. Uh, I’ve been using it for a few weeks and I have to say as someone who’s gone through the process of manually. [00:29:10] Christina: Trying to submit, um, you know, these, these claims to data brokers. This is way easier. And I’ve been impressed with like how much stuff they found and how much they’ve been able to clear out. And like, this is very good. Uh, and I know Brett mentioned, uh, last time that like you’ve received fewer spam calls. [00:29:28] Christina: I have too. Um, and, and I, and I don’t, you know, I don’t know if that’s because, uh, I’ve been, you know, like Verizon or somebody has some sort of list or what, but like. I don’t know how to end up like long term data to say it’s incognito, but it’s definitely decreased, which is really good because that’s one of the main things that happens. [00:29:46] Christina: It gets your phone number and I’ve had the same phone number for over 20 years. And so. You know, it’s associated with me. And so, you know, uh, the, the, the fewer like random calls, like you had, you owe something to the IRS or you, [00:30:00] you know, have like this outstanding car loan or, or whatever you get the better, because those things can really prey on people. [00:30:06] Christina: Um, you can get an individual account for yourself with incognito family and friends plan. You can even extend that same robust protection to up to four additional members. So that means that your entire family or closed circle can benefit from incognito vigilant data removal and monitoring services. [00:30:21] Christina: and provide everyone peace of mind and take control of your digital privacy. Now visit incognito. com slash overtired and secure your data today. You can sign up and enjoy a 30 day money back guarantee, protect your privacy with incognito and experience peace of mind. Knowing your personal information is safe. [00:30:42] Christina: Take your personal data back with incogni use the code overtired at the link in the show notes or visit incogni. com slash overtired and get 60 percent off the annual plan. That is I N C O G N I. com slash overtired [00:31:00] incogni. com slash overtired. Thank you. Tech Updates: Mark and Envy Ultra [00:31:03] Brett: Very well done. Nice job. Um, I’m going to save our second, um, our second sponsor for closer to our gratitude segment because it’s going to tie in really well there. Um, so. Real quick, this doesn’t have to be a big segment. I, I put out a new version of Mark this week, which is the first time in it’s, it’s been at least a year since I’ve released an update. [00:31:33] Brett: And I finally, I put out a version that can now, so one of the big requests was incorporating mermaid, uh, mermaid. js, which lets you write diagrams in Markdown [00:31:48] Christina: and, and that’s been supported by, by, uh, the official GitHub flavored Markdown on GitHub for, I think, two years now. Yeah. [00:31:54] Brett: yeah. So, so instead of just adding mermaid, I decided to [00:32:00] add, um, the capability to. Add your own javascripts from a CDN from a local file or from just embedded raw text in, uh, an entry field. And so, and then you can add hooks that will update whatever library you add. It can update it every time the page refreshes because Mark doesn’t do a page. [00:32:28] Brett: Full page refresh. Uh, when it detects a change in the file, it only updates the part of the page, a part of the display that was actually modified. Um, so this, this allows you to add something like mermaid and then have it automatically update every time you make a change to the file. Um, and it’s going to open the door to solving dozen support requests in one fell swoop. [00:32:55] Brett: And then the other request that I. Just, I don’t [00:33:00] know why this is such a big deal now, but there’s this. I think it’s from Common Mark, this syntax where you put two equal signs on either side of a block of text and it highlights it. Um, and it works in bear. It works. I think it works in obsidian. Um, it, it just became this like accepted standard. [00:33:23] Brett: And suddenly I was getting all of these customer complaints that like, I just wasted 14 because all I needed to do is display my highlight. And, and I’m like, this isn’t part of markdown. Uh, like this isn’t, this isn’t part of any official spec. So cut me some slack, but I went ahead and I just figured out, I added support for equals equals marks and. [00:33:53] Brett: Tilde tilde, um, deletion and single tilde [00:34:00] underscores the single tilde underscores you can enable separately because those conflict with multi markdown subscript. [00:34:08] Christina: right. That’s what I was recall. That’s what I was remembering. Cause I remember like multi Markdown, like does yeah. Subscript differently. [00:34:14] Brett: yeah, so, so you have the option to override multi markdown handling of tildes, um, [00:34:22] Christina: This is why this is, well, that’s awesome. I was going to say, so. Like, I know that like, cause like, cause it’s common Mark, even are people even actively still like adding to that spec or, or was this one of those things that just a lot of people, I looked, it looks like the last time they updated anything on the spec was 2024, but, um, or, or, but, or, or what you, or, or, or what you are seeing is that like, yeah, somebody somewhere added some sort of. [00:34:51] Christina: Common thing, um, whether it was part of a spec or not and becomes adopted and then because it’s not part of any of the official forks, like it’s hard for, you [00:35:00] know, people like yourself, if you are supporting a flavor of something to be like, okay, well, I don’t even know that I’m supposed to do this. [00:35:07] Brett: the beauty of marked is. Okay, so it’s a huge glaring hole and benefit at the same time that mark can work with whatever processor you want it to, um, it has. Multi Markdown and GitHub Flavor Markdown built in, but you can extend that to work with Common Mark. I’ve written custom processors that handle all of Bear’s syntax. [00:35:37] Brett: Um, uh, Obsidian callout formatting. Like you can make it work with all of that if you’re willing to kind of get into the. nitty gritty a little bit. Um, and I don’t, I, I don’t know where all of these people who want the equals equals highlighting necessarily are coming [00:36:00] from, or if they’re even coming from like the same place. [00:36:04] Brett: I do know, like I’ve been really into Devon think lately and you can highlight texts in Devon think using. Critic markup syntax for highlights, which is curly bracket or equals equals and then equals equals curly bracket. Um, and that will give you like a markdown annotation, which is, it’s perfect. It’s great. [00:36:28] Brett: I love it. Um, but it’s. It’s different. Like everyone seems to have a different implementation. I wish critic markup had gotten more widely used personally, [00:36:41] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say it’s hard because like, I mean, and this is, I mean, I guess this was the initial idea behind, you know, Common Mark, which, which I think was, was kind of hurt by its, uh, initial, uh, name, um, and, uh, and, and, and that whole thing, um, which we don’t need to [00:37:00] relitigate, um, which was a bad move, but like, it, it, it is one of those things where like, You know, you had this, this syntax, which was, it was just incredibly popular and, and like so successful because of its simplicity, because it was literally designed for one thing. [00:37:13] Christina: And then as everybody has started to expand into areas, like if we’re being honest, like highlighting is not really a thing that you should necessarily be wanting from. A tool called Markdown. Right. But like, that doesn’t mean you couldn’t have a different thing that uses a similar spec that could do that. [00:37:29] Christina: Right. But like, as everybody’s extended this stuff, it makes it really hard for people like you who are trying to adhere to a spec. And, and, and yeah, you can bring your own processor. But even in that case, like you would need to know, like, for something like highlighting or something, which is different, you would need to like, have a way of rendering that. [00:37:44] Christina: Um, beyond just like whatever, you know, processor they’re, they’re, they’re using so that you can display it, you know, correctly in the app. Like you, you need to still be aware of like, okay, well, what, what, what things are out there and is there something else [00:38:00] I need to support? But that’s awesome that you, that you brought it. [00:38:02] Christina: Um, and, uh. And the bring your own JavaScript, uh, thing, um, seems really cool too. [00:38:09] Brett: It, it, it should prove useful. Um, I don’t think. I don’t think the vast majority of Mark users will need it, but man, if I lose my job, I’m switching Mark to subscription. Um, and I’ll lose a lot of customers. Um, I have, I have customers that I’ve had for 15 years now, um, that have never paid a dime after their initial purchase back when Mark costs like 4 [00:38:36] Christina: Right. No, totally. [00:38:37] Brett: I still support them and I’ll lose a bunch of them if I switch to subscription, but I think there’s. [00:38:43] Brett: It still makes a couple grand a month, um, in sales. And I think if I could turn that into more recurring revenue, I could, I [00:38:52] Christina: I, I, I, I think if you could do like a three or four dollar a month subscription, you know? Um, as well as an annual plan that might be like a [00:39:00] discounted thing, like, I, I [00:39:01] Brett: Three dollars, 3 a month. If I, if I got 20 percent of my current user base to switch to 3 a month, I could, I could actually probably quit my job. I [00:39:14] Christina: I feel like, [00:39:15] Brett: cut back, but I could survive. [00:39:17] Christina: right, but, but, but I feel like, well, and not only that, but you might even be able to like dedicate like more resources towards upkeep, right? Like if you were able to do it that way, like if that became like [00:39:27] Brett: Well, and that like with envy ultra, we’re definitely going subscription. Um, like that’s been built in from [00:39:35] Christina: From the beginning. Yes. [00:39:36] Brett: and that’s part of what’s holding up release right now is getting fucking store kit version one to function properly, um, [00:39:45] Christina: are going to go in the app store. [00:39:47] Brett: Yeah, our, our initial release will be app store and then hopefully soon followed by a direct, uh, probably. [00:39:57] Brett: Well, so set up is [00:40:00] working on a store where they can sell individual licenses that don’t require a set up subscription. Uh, so they’re looking at kind of taking a piece of the pie from paddle, uh, from, uh, spring, whatever. What’s it? Something spring? [00:40:20] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Something spring. Yeah. I, I, I know what you’re talking about. Um, uh, yeah. I guess it. [00:40:26] Brett: All these, yeah, all these, like, [00:40:28] Christina: Koji’s dead. Uh, uh, it’s, it’s [00:40:31] Brett: Koji something else now. [00:40:33] Christina: um, yeah. Um, but that, that, that is now that domain is now, uh, um, search engine, but it was, or it was cakey, [00:40:40] Brett: Okay, that’s what I was [00:40:41] Christina: but, yeah, but yeah, now, now it’s a search engine. [00:40:43] Christina: They just bought the domain, but yeah, that’s dead. Digital river got, um, uh, shut down spring. I know what you’re talking about, but like paddle is obviously one of the big ones for, um, uh, and then what’s the other one other than paddle? Um, [00:40:59] Brett: I, [00:41:00] I’m blanking on [00:41:01] Christina: I am too because I can, [00:41:02] Brett: one that’s been around longer than paddle. [00:41:04] Christina: Yeah. I was going to say, cause it’s one that I have like a ton of, uh, um, stuff with. Um, so yeah. [00:41:11] Brett: Yeah. Exploring Setapp’s Developer-Centric Approach [00:41:11] Brett: So set up is looking to take a piece of that pie. Um, and honestly, if they, they’ve been like, they’ve had zoom calls with every developer on set up to talk about what they would want to see from that kind of store. And they’re taking all of that feedback and trying to make something that is actually good for developers, uh, which is pretty exciting. [00:41:37] Brett: Um, not that paddle is bad. I, I have, I have enjoyed using paddle and I like purchasing through paddle. Like it’s very seamless. It works great. Um, all of my licenses are easy to retrieve. Um, I enjoy paddle, but if. If set up can do the same thing and I also want to sell through set up, [00:42:00] then it becomes my one stop shop and that’s where I’m going to, that’s where I’m going to publish software. [00:42:06] Christina: And it was fast spring. It was fast spring. We [00:42:08] Brett: fast spring. Yeah, that’s that, that was, that was the one. Subscription Models and Lifetime Licenses [00:42:12] Brett: Um, so anyway, like I definitely with, uh, NB ultra subscription for sure. We’re looking at, you know, basically. 36 a year, um, for a full license. And then, uh, uh, an unlock price that is equivalent to maybe three to five years worth of free updates. Um, and we’re going to call it a lifetime license, but. [00:42:41] Brett: You know, after five years, we might release a whole, like major upgrade that requires payment. Well, you know, the way software used to work. [00:42:51] Christina: Yeah, exactly. The way, the way it used to be. Um, and, and gumroad, gumroad was the one I was trying to [00:42:55] Brett: Yes. Yes. Okay. Gumroad is not as old as paddle,[00:43:00] [00:43:00] Christina: I was going to say gumroad is no, is newer than paddle, but it’s been, I I’ve used that one more in recent years and I use at least as an end user, I have more [00:43:07] Brett: what I like about Gumroad is they make it really easy to do pay what you want or pay what you can kind of pricing. Um, and I like when I go to buy a piece of software that the developer has said, this is. 3, but they give me an empty field and, and I can say, no, this is where five bucks, this is where six bucks, [00:43:30] Christina: and I’ve definitely done that. [00:43:32] Brett: Yeah. Me too. Like I almost always up upsell myself on those because I can afford it. And, and I know what it’s like to put out a truly useful piece of software that gets undervalued and, or undervalues their own. [00:43:50] Christina: Mm hmm. Totally. [00:43:52] Brett: I’ll help [00:43:52] Christina: Yeah. No, I, I, no, I, I vibe with that too. So yeah, I’m glad that Setapp is, is getting into that, um, space because I think, [00:44:00] A, that’s a great opportunity for them. I think the subscription stuff is great, but There are times when you’re like, no, actually I would like to be able to just buy this, you know, like outright. [00:44:08] Christina: And maybe you’re in instances where, um, a subscription doesn’t work. Like if you’re on a corporate laptop or something, maybe they don’t, you know, they, maybe they have requirements about how licenses work. You know what I mean? They’re, they’re just all kinds of options there. And, um, it does make sense too, since they’ve have the setup app store, uh, in the EU. [00:44:25] Christina: Um, I don’t know what the status of that is now, but I know that they were working on having their own app store, um, for iOS and in the EU. And so, you know, if they’re already having to invest in that kind of infrastructure, you might as well expand it. [00:44:40] Brett: Oh, like a sideloaded app [00:44:42] Christina: Yeah, yeah, I know that that’s, I know they were, I don’t know [00:44:46] Brett: right now, [00:44:46] Christina: them or not, but I [00:44:47] Brett: they [00:44:47] Christina: I know they were looking at it. [00:44:49] Brett: they, if you have a setup subscription and an app on setup has an iOS companion, [00:44:56] Christina: correct. No, what I’m talking about. Yes, no, yes, that [00:45:00] that’s not what I’m talking about. Um, and I don’t know what the status of this is, but I know that last year when, um, the EU announced that like Apple would have to accept third party app stores that set up was like, we will make a third party app store in the EU that will have. [00:45:14] Christina: You know, um, apps that you might not be able to get otherwise, or apps that people might want to sell through an alternative way, similar to, to what the, the, the Delta guys have done, um, with, uh, with their, um, app store for, for, for, for the Delta emulator. Um, although that is available officially in the app store as well, but, but there are other apps that, that aren’t, and so. [00:45:34] Christina: If I, what I’m assuming, and I have no, you know, knowledge around this, but I would assume that if they were going to take on the undertaking of being like, okay, we have to have this much money that’s required by the DMA to have this, you know, um, uh, you know, uh, marketplace, if we have to go through all this process of building out our infrastructure to do individual sales and to do this stuff for the EU, we might as well make some tweaks and make, uh, you know, a paddle gumroad, [00:46:00] you know, uh, you know, um, uh, you know, Whatever. [00:46:04] Christina: Um, exactly. So, so you can sell individual licenses, um, to, um, outside of mobile, you know, cause if you’re already building it out, you might as well, um, get, get some bank for your buck if you’re doing all of that, [00:46:17] Brett: Right. [00:46:17] Christina: I don’t know. Um, okay. Uh, uh, do you want to, can we talk about some new computers? [00:46:24] Brett: Yes, let’s. [00:46:26] Christina: Okay. New Mac Announcements and Benchmarks [00:46:27] Christina: So the new Macs, uh, we’ve got some new Mac updates, um, this week. [00:46:30] Christina: We also got, um, uh, framework announced a bunch of stuff, uh, week before last, but let’s talk about the Macs first. So you, you have a, uh, an M4 Mac pro now, right? [00:46:40] Brett: I have an M4 MacBook Pro, and I still have an M1 Studio, and I’ve been waiting for the studio update, and I, I, are there benchmarks out between the M3 Ultra and the M4 Max [00:46:59] Christina: [00:47:00] Um, there are no, no, because the, the, uh, the, so, um, they announced the new Macs, um, a new Mac book air and, um, uh, the new Mac studio, uh, were both announced, uh, this week and they will be available starting on the 12th. So reviews will probably. Be out on Monday or Tuesday is my guess. And so we’ll start to see benchmarks then, but no, they don’t. [00:47:22] Christina: Other than like some synthetic stuff that Apple put in the press releases, we don’t have any comparisons between the M4 Max and the M3 Ultra. [00:47:30] Brett: the M3 Ultra is priced higher than the M4 Max, [00:47:35] Christina: Yes. [00:47:36] Brett: so I have [00:47:37] Christina: Right. So, so from what I, what I understand is, is how they describe the process. It’s better [00:47:45] Brett: Okay. [00:47:46] Christina: is, is how they’re sharing it. So, so how, how, how they’re describing it, I think, is that they’re saying that the M3 ultra is two M3 maxes stuck together. And so that will have like higher throughput. That’s how you can get 512 gigabytes of, of, um, unified [00:48:00] memory. [00:48:00] Christina: And do some other things. Um, it, it’s still on the older three nanometer process, but it’s still in three nanometer process. And the way that it was described, I think to people like Jason Snell and John Gruber, and I hope that I’m not misrepresenting this, but from the impression that I got based on, on their write ups was that what Apple basically said was that they kind of work on some of these chips in parallel. [00:48:22] Christina: Um, you know, I guess like processes. And so one team’s working on one thing, one’s working on another. So the M4 Max for most people is probably. Enough, but the M three ULTRA is going to be even beyond that because it’s basically I know, I [00:48:41] Brett: from a branding [00:48:42] Christina: And, and why [00:48:43] Brett: should be slower than [00:48:44] Christina: about it. [00:48:44] Christina: ’cause it’s not like it. I agree with you. I agree with you. But what I, what I, but, but, but if, but if you have, if the way that it’s working is that, okay, the, the two ultras are, are two of the max chips. Attach [00:49:00] like in their, in their, their chiplet kind of thing, similar to what, how AMD does their Zen processor. That’s basically what they’re doing is attaching two of them together. [00:49:07] Christina: If that’s what they’re doing, then yeah, no matter what, you know, unless you made like Titanic, um, improvements. From M3 to M4, which, which you didn’t, you know, then, then two is still going to be better than one. Um, but, um, so, so for instance, the comparison, uh, on the Mac studio, uh, page is, and some of this could just be down to binning. [00:49:31] Christina: It could be down how to inspect the chips, obviously. Um, and, and there’s some, uh, I guess, uh, thought, uh, that maybe the M4 ultra will be. What they’ll use for the Mac Pro, maybe that’ll be the one thing that will get people to stupidly buy a Mac, Apple Silicon Mac Pro, which zero people in the universe need. [00:49:51] Christina: But the, um, the, the, the, the comparison is that the Apple M4 Max chip. We’ll have 14 core CPU, 10 performance cores [00:50:00] for efficiency, and then a 32 core GPU. And I think that can be extended beyond that, but whereas where the M3 Ultra starts, it’s a 28 core CPU with 20 performance and 8 efficiency. So it’s twice the number of cores and then a 60 core GPU. [00:50:14] Christina: So, and then, and then the neural, the neural engine is double as well. And then the big thing is the memory bandwidth goes from 4 to 10 gigabytes. Uh, per second memory bandwidth to 819. So you’re, you’re literally are talking even if you know, it’s, it’s almost exactly. And so you can configure these all the way up to, um, uh, you know, uh, 32 core, um, 80 core GPU, um, uh, for, for the ultra versus 16 core, 40 core GPU on the max. [00:50:41] Christina: So it’s, it’s double. Um, but, um, you know, it, it also costs. Twice as much. So, uh, I agree with you though, from a brainy perspective, it’s nuts. It’s like, [00:50:53] Brett: So. [00:50:54] Christina: no one’s going to know. But, but, uh, I’m looking forward to the benchmarks because these look like these will be good machines. [00:50:59] Brett: Yeah, [00:51:00] I, I can get 800, uh, trade in for my M1 studio. Um, and even with that, I can’t justify, in addition to my M four MacBook Pro, I can’t justify buying another $4,000 machine right now. So my thing is, if, if we get NV Ultra out. And it makes some decent money for me, then I’ll buy a, a new studio, but for right now, for right now, the combination of an M one studio and an M four MacBook pro, I have, I have everything I need. [00:51:38] Brett: I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t even be looking, but I priced it [00:51:41] Christina: I was gonna say I think you’re perfect. No. Yeah, and I was looking too because in my mind I was like, so I have like my my 2020 iMac which has 128 gigs of RAM and it’s like was a you know, an i9 and and you know a big Graphics card and it still performs really well, but and I’m [00:52:00] not like Needing to even upgrade it, but, you know, it is still an Intel machine and like Apple’s going to cut support for it. [00:52:06] Christina: Maybe even this year, right? Like I, I don’t know when, and so then I’m going to be stuck in this position where I’m like, okay, well, do I, you know, spend a couple hundred dollars and try to turn it into a second studio display, um, by getting like a, a board from AliExpress and like opening up the back of it and, and attempting to Frankenstein the whole thing so I can try to save the. [00:52:27] Christina: The display and, and, and reuse that. Cause Apple’s only going to give me like, they’re not going to give me any money for this computer. Um, certainly not what it’s worth. Do I stick, do we keep it around, you know, as like a, a Linux kind of machine or something like, like, what, what do I do with this? But I was looking, I was like, okay, well, if I wanted to get a desktop and I don’t really need one right now, I have an M three max and then I have an M four pro for work, but if I wanted a desktop, I’m like, okay, well, you know. [00:52:53] Christina: How much do I want to spend? Because, uh, the, the ultra is probably more processing power than I need, [00:53:00] but at the same time, I don’t really want to spend, like, I priced out, it’d be like, you know, 3, 500 to get an M4 Max studio the way I would want it versus like a couple hundred more to get the, the base level ultra, which would have. [00:53:14] Christina: Not 128 gigs of RAM, but I have 96, but it would be up there. But I’d be basically looking at spending about four grand on the machine that I would want to configure the way I would want it before tax. And then I have to figure out a fricking display. So, you know, which, um, which, which means that I’m, it’s. [00:53:32] Christina: Which makes me just miss the 27 inch iMac, but I’m, I’m, I’m looking, I don’t really need anything right now. I’m, I’m waiting for, for the benchmarks just to see. From me and what’s interesting is that my use case with this and it’s, and it, it’s interesting to me that Apple still hasn’t leaned into this because this is obviously the core market for this product. [00:53:49] Christina: Is like local a, um, LLM stuff like, like that’s, that’s where you get the benefit from this much memory. Like that, the only people who are going to benefit from 512 gigabytes of [00:54:00] unified memory are people who are doing local LLMs. This is not a thing for, for, you know, even like, cause honestly, if you’re. [00:54:07] Christina: Having better integrated, like graphics things, like still for a lot of visual effects houses, maybe Pixar and people like that could use some of these things, but, but everybody else, but I think they’re using like a custom version of Linux for most of, for render man, most of those people are gonna be better off with just like. [00:54:22] Christina: You know, customized GPUs and workstations. So I feel like the main market for this would be like local LLM development. And that would certainly be what I would be interested in playing with him on, right. It would be doing that. So I, it’s weird to me that they, they haven’t at least so far, like leaned into that in, in their outreach for their marketing. [00:54:43] Christina: Cause I’m like, This is what this is like. This is competing in essence with like the, the, um, the thing that a and b showed off at CES, um, and, and some other stuff. Framework’s New Desktop and Laptop Innovations [00:54:54] Christina: Um, and speaking of that, um, framework, uh, which, uh, disclosure, I, I did invest. [00:55:00] In their, uh, community funding round. So I, I, I, you know, I’m in a very minority investor, uh, but like, I, I don’t know anything, you know, beforehand or whatnot, they had an event two weeks ago where they announced some updates to the framework 13 for, for 2025. [00:55:17] Christina: Um, they also showed off, um, it’s coming soon. This framework 12 laptop, which is like a two in one that is. It’s apparently going to be very price, um, uh, like price very well and designed, uh, I think probably for like schools and fleets is it’s what it looks like the kind of the goal is, and I’m looking forward to that because that’d be a great machine to recommend to people who, you know, don’t have MacBook Air money, but. [00:55:41] Christina: Um, need, you know, something reliable and, and repairable, but the big thing that they announced and I did preorder one, um, was this thing called the framework desktop and it’s, it’s kind of a mini PC, um, but it is, um, based on, uh, a new, uh, system on a chip from AMD called, uh, the [00:56:00] codename is the Strix Halo. [00:56:01] Christina: And that is actually a laptop chip, but what they are doing is they are combining it. They’re putting it in a desktop housing. So it’ll have more, uh, cooling and, and, and more dedicated power and hopefully get more performance out of it. And, um, the, the. So it has a built in GPU, built in, you know, um, uh, CPU, um, integrated memory, um, uh, networking. [00:56:25] Christina: The downside of this means that whereas with most framework prop products, you know, you can upgrade everything. They worked with AMD on this and they were like, can we upgrade the RAM? Can we make the RAM upgradable? And, and they just weren’t able to make it work. AMD did actually investigate it and, and they’re open to that potentially, I guess, maybe, maybe for future revisions, but the way that the whole thing was designed, they were not able to, You would only get some of the benefits of, of the memory if it was actually integrated and soldered in. [00:56:50] Christina: So that, that sucks from that perspective, but I feel like that’s an even trade off that that’s just a design of the chip and they decided to go forward with it anyway. You can still put in some add [00:57:00] in cards that doesn’t have full PCI, like that doesn’t have a bunch of PCI express lanes, but you can, you know, put in two M. [00:57:05] Christina: 2 SSDs of your own. Um, unlike what you can do, you know, on a Mac studio or a Mac mini. Um, and, and they, um, they said the integrated graphics is probably about equal to like a 40, 60 mobile processor. So it can do decent enough, you know, graphics. But the real thing is that these chips have been, um. Really, I think, uh, set for, for doing like local LLM type of work, machine learning and, and whatnot. [00:57:32] Christina: And so, um, but here, here’s where it gets interesting. This is the pricing. So the completely maxed out model with, um, uh, so it has three gigahertz base clock. Um, and, and so this is 16 core 32 threat, uh, threads has integrated graphics. It has 128 gigs of, of, um, memory for 2, 000. [00:57:54] Brett: Wow. [00:57:55] Christina: So, um, I pre ordered one. I am sure that the, that [00:58:00] the Mac studio will trounce it, but I’m very, I would equally convinced that I bet that if you, they’ve, they’ve designed these things. [00:58:11] Christina: So you could conceivably have like a rack of them working together. So I bet if you had two of those, I don’t know if, if, if two of them together would be trounced. You see what I’m saying? So, um, I dunno, I, I pre ordered one. Um, it’ll be out like Q3, um, uh, So, so, you know, summer, I guess, um, we’ll see, but, um, you know, like I’m, I’m sure the Apple Silicon is significantly ahead of where AMD is, but that’s another thing I think for folks, at least if you’re looking for LLM sort of stuff. [00:58:41] Christina: Um, the, the, the framework desktop and other companies are also going to be, um, apparently making mini PCs based also based off of this, uh, AMD chip set. And, and I think that’s, that’s interesting for, for local work. So, cause for me, 2, 000, like I was, I, I, I did the pre order, you only had to put like a hundred dollars down. [00:58:59] Christina: I was like. [00:59:00] That’s cool. I’ll bring my own storage. And, you know, I got like the type of fan I wanted and, and you can customize some, some cute stuff like for, for the, the way they’ve made like kind of the, the, the mini case, like only four and a half liters. So it’s bigger than a Mac mini or a Mac studio, but it’s, it’s still pretty tiny. [00:59:15] Christina: Like that’s the, the, that, that, that’s fine for, for a local machine. And then of course, like the following week, the Mac studios are announced and I’m like, damn, well, that would be a really good local LLM machine, but, but, but, but. 128 gigs of RAM, which is going to matter a lot more. Um, at least for me and for my purposes, if I’m running Olama anyway, I kind of don’t care as much about the operating system. [00:59:37] Christina: Um, I mean, like, obviously I love Mac OS, but if, if what I’m doing is doing local model stuff and it kind of doesn’t matter, then, you know, I feel like even if the, the cores on Apple are going to be better, that RAM is what you really want. And, you know, 120 gigs of RAM for, for two grand. I’m like, okay, well, that, that might be [01:00:00] the, the [01:00:00] Brett: Yeah. Well, I look forward to your review when you get the actual machine. We’ll do a follow up [01:00:07] Christina: We’ll do a follow up. Um, speaking of follow up, and I know we’ve been going for a while. We probably need to go to Graphitude, but I did want to hear an update. Cause you got your, your 8 bit, um, [01:00:14] Brett: I [01:00:14] Christina: hand machine. How, how is that? Retro Gaming and Emulation Challenges [01:00:17] Brett: I forgot how hard, like, Super Nintendo games are. Um, [01:00:24] Christina: And they’re, and they’re better than Nintendo games. [01:00:26] Brett: right. But still, like, even like just Super Mario Brothers, like. I’m so much I’m I’m so used to way more responsive machines. Um, and. It’s a, it’s a little frustrating, but like playing, there’s some cool variations of Tetris on it that are fun. [01:00:48] Brett: Um, I got into a motocross game. There’s thousands of games on this. It was, we’re talking about the all eight bit. Um, I can’t remember what they call it, [01:01:00] but it’s like a game station. Um, it’s an emulator that has at least 15 different consoles. Built in from like Commodore 64 [01:01:12] Christina: Somebody took retro through, through like, [01:01:15] Brett: through PlayStation. [01:01:16] Brett: Yeah. And, and like, it’s missing some key, like I really wanted super Mario cart for Nintendo 64 and that’s not on there. And I don’t know why that’s not on there. [01:01:31] Christina: Yeah. Uh, and it’s weird ’cause like all these games, obviously, like this is not like a, a legal thing. If you, if, if you can bring your own ROMs, I can get you the, the rom for that. [01:01:43] Brett: Yeah. I need, it has USB ports. I imagine. I can hack it a little [01:01:48] Christina: Oh, I’m sure you can. I’m sure I’m, I’m sure, I’m sure that it’s just running retro arch under the hood. I, I have, I don’t know that definitively, but I would be shocked if it were not literally just somebody packaging, you know, a cheap, you know, um, uh, you [01:02:00] know, R-M-S-O-C with, um, a retro arch and, and a bunch of Ros they downloaded off the internet right. [01:02:05] Christina: So I, I, I have, I have ROMs, um, [01:02:08] Brett: it was like a hundred bucks, so [01:02:10] Christina: but absolutely [01:02:11] Brett: it’s, it’s nothing fancy. [01:02:13] Christina: no, no. Well, but, but, but I’m saying there was a lot of, there are a lot of these types of devices out there. And so I, I can, I can help you with that. Um, at least getting stuff. Um, yeah, but, uh, yeah, cause it’s interesting. Nintendo 64 games have been really hard to emulate well, because. [01:02:30] Christina: Of how custom that processor was and it took people a really long time to do it when some of the, and then there was kind of this conundrum because there was this big Nintendo hack a few years ago at a bunch of the internals and schematics and stuff of the 64 were part of that hack. But the thing is, is that if you’re going to do like a clean room or burst engineering thing, then you can’t look at that stuff. [01:02:49] Christina: And it’s unclear if some of the people who worked on some of these cores for some of these different things did look at that or not. I think some might have, but I think a lot of them probably kept to their principles and were like. No, we’re [01:03:00] doing a clean room reverse engineering, but it was a really big breakthrough. [01:03:03] Christina: We were talking about the, the Mr. FPGA thing last week. And to be clear, that is not what your system is. Your system is just straight up emulating, but they made a big breakthrough, the Mr. Project last year, and then analog, um, followed around the same time where they were able to reprogram. The Nintendo 64 schematics and there are still a few things with shaders and some stuff that they had to make some modifications to, but that was like a massive breakthrough because that that has been one of the hardest systems to emulate, um, and because it was so custom and because it was powerful enough at the time. [01:03:39] Christina: Um, and so, uh, like I remember, you know, in like a Raspberry Pi three or something. You know, uh, barely being able to play like, um, you know, Donkey, Diddy Kong Racing and like Mario Kart 64, like on, on those types of consoles. Now that was like eight years ago. It’s improved a lot since then, but, [01:04:00] but emulating, um, the N64 has been a challenge. [01:04:04] Christina: So, um, it’s cool that we’re now at that point where like they can even just throw those games on, you know, these, these hundred dollar, you know, boxes. [01:04:13] Brett: What’s wild is my memory of how Good Nintendo 64 graphics look of just being wowed and amazed at, Oh my God, look at, look at this technology. It’s amazing. And now I see it and I’m like, holy shit. This is, this looks like Atari to me now. [01:04:34] Christina: Right. Well, part of that is because you’re looking at it on a, on an LCD. [01:04:39] Brett: Okay, [01:04:40] Christina: No, for real, for real. If you look at it on a CRT, it looks much better because they, that was, yes, yes, [01:04:47] Brett: Because it was designed for [01:04:48] Christina: It was designed for that. It was designed for that, and they did things with certain comb filters and whatnot to really make things look smoother and to make it look less blocky and less pixelated. [01:04:57] Christina: And you don’t get that when you have an LCD. If [01:05:00] anything, it sometimes makes it worse because they can higher res the pixels, which you would think would be a good thing. Oh, I can play this in 4K. I’m like, no, you don’t want to see this in 4K because it was designed to be viewed in, in, you know, um, you know, 480, um, you know, really 320, whatever. [01:05:15] Christina: Um, and, uh, you know, have kind of, you know, filters over it to, to give the sense of motion and all of that. And if that’s up but leveled, all you see are, are the blocks. PlayStation games are even worse because those didn’t even look that good other than rendered scenes. PlayStation games did not look that good to begin with, but play, but Nintendo 64 stuff did, but yeah, it’s, I had the exact same like realization when I, when I played. [01:05:40] Christina: Um, like on a, on a, you know, um, LCD for the first time. And I was like, Oh, okay. But, but, and I don’t, I don’t know if you’re, I don’t know if your system will let you do this or not. If it is based on RetroArch, then, then you can, but there are people who’ve created shader packs and other types of things to improve. [01:05:58] Christina: The, the looks [01:06:00] of, um, of how that stuff works on, um, on LCDs. So, um, I was going to say, that’s the thing you can do next time. You’re you’re up really late with insomnia. Just, just go down the Nintendo 64 emulation rabbit hole. Cause I don’t know if you can tell Brett, but I’ve been through that a few times myself. Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba [01:06:17] Brett: It sounds like it. All right. Well, I’m going to do sponsor number two, which they might complain about being so late in the episode, but they’re going to get their money’s worth out of this because. It’s going to be, you’ll see, you’ll see, it’s going to be worth it. It’s going to be amazing. Uh, this episode is sponsored by Rogue Amoeba makers of powerful audio software for the Mac. [01:06:43] Brett: Christina and I are both big fans of Rogue Amoeba. They have been developing audio focused app for the Mac for over 20 years, going all the way back to OS 10. 2, which is Jaguar. In case, you know, you’ve [01:06:56] Christina: Yep. The first, well, it was the first good one. Let’s be clear on [01:07:00] that. It was the first good OS 10. [01:07:02] Brett: And, uh, Rogamiba’s latest versions, make it a snap to get started with no need to even restart your Mac, which was a thing for a little bit because their software ties in at a low enough level to your audio system that when system integrity protection became a thing, uh, there, there were some workarounds, but these days. [01:07:28] Brett: Rogamiba’s apps don’t even require a restart of your machine. I personally love SoundSource and Loopback, and I use them all the time. SoundSource puts per audio app controls, uh, audio controls, including the ability to apply effects, right in your menu bar. And Loopback is an amazing app for routing signals and working with multiple audio devices. [01:07:51] Brett: And I would be remiss, of course, not to praise audio hijack, uh, the all purpose tool for recording and routing audio on your Mac. Uh, it [01:08:00] can do just about anything with application, audio, or microphone input, and it has a ton of automation possibilities. We’ll be talking a bit more about it in a second. [01:08:09] Brett: You can learn more about all of Rogue Amoeba’s software at macaudio. com slash overtired. That’s Mac audio. com slash overtired. Listeners of overtired can save 20 percent off any purchase through the end of May with the coupon overtired. Just go to Mac audio. com slash overtired and use the coupon overtired, which brings us to craft attitude. [01:08:38] Christina: Yes. Yes. And we figured like this’d be a great time. And like, genuinely, this is a pick of mine because I wanted to talk about this, this feature, which, which came out, um, a couple of weeks ago. Um, anyway, um, but speaking of, uh, my, my, my gratitude this week is actually audio hijack, uh, which is a fantastic, fantastic application that, [01:09:00] uh, I’ve been using God, I think basically as long as I’ve been like full timing, uh, A Mac, which is, which is 18 or 19 years at this point. [01:09:08] Christina: So, um, you know, it, it’s, uh, I, I, uh, we, we use a different recording process for overtired at this point. Um, but if I’m doing, you need to do backup recordings or if I’m doing recordings with other people, or especially when you need to bring in lots of different audio sources, like audio, audio hijack is just an amazing tool. [01:09:27] Christina: Um, along with like loop loopback and sound source, as you mentioned, but one of the things that’s great about it. As you can record from any source and, um, uh, you know, you can build in these, these, these blocks to kind of automate these processes. So I can be like, okay, I have my zoom audio coming in here and I have, you know, maybe audio from, um, like if, if I’m wanting to play back, uh, you know, with, for a soundboard or something, I can have that come in here and I can also separate the channels if I’m talking to multiple people and I can have them routed to these devices, but. [01:09:57] Christina: Um, one of the other things that they introduced, [01:10:00] and they, they first rolled this out, uh, in beta back in like, I think like 2023, it’s like a year and a half ago, um, is a, a, ability to transcribe the audio that you’re recording, and it does this live, and the way, the way it does this is it uses Whisper, which is, um, opening eyes, open source, and, and actually open source, um, a local, Model for doing transcriptions or for doing a voice to text rather. [01:10:25] Christina: Um, and, and you and I have talked about whisper, um, a bunch of the past, cause it’s fantastic. It works really, really well in a bunch of different languages. And so they’ve got that built into, um, a block. So while you’re recording your podcast or your radio interview or whatever the case may be, you can have this transcribed block. [01:10:44] Christina: Plugged into audio hijack. And while you’re recording, it’s also going through the process of transcribing and doing that in real time and creating that nicely for you. So by the time you’re done, that’s one less thing you’ve got to run your audio through, right? Like you could [01:11:00] conceivably record your audio and then just feed it into, you know, a prog, a program like Mac whisper, or use like a command line, um, you know, whisper CPP or whatever, uh, to, to. [01:11:10] Christina: Transcribe, but like the fact that you can do it in real time, um, while you’re recording, I think is just. Freaking awesome. And, and it’s just such a, such a cool feature. [01:11:22] Brett: Yeah. It’s super cool. I, I love audio hijack. I love any app that, that brings like node based editing where you can like drag blocks around on a workspace and like. Connect different outputs to different inputs and like, see it all visually. That was kind of the breakthrough thing for me with, uh, audio hijack and like all of systematic, my older podcasts that is now in retirement, but all of that was recorded with audio hijack. [01:11:57] Brett: Um, bringing in like I could split [01:12:00] my Skype conversations into two different tracks. So to make for easy editing and, and EQing, uh, go ahead [01:12:11] Christina: No, I was going to [01:12:11] Brett: you’re doing an interview, when you’re doing an interview podcast and you never can predict what the other person is going to have for a microphone, having separate tracks is crucial. [01:12:23] Christina: no, it is crucial. And that’s the thing, right? Is that, is that we know we, we used, you know, programs like back when Skype was, um, Uh, thing and, and RIP Skype, Microsoft announced that they are killing Skype in May. Um, pour one out. Like I use that, like that, that sound will be in my head for forever. And like, and, um, and I used to use e cams, um, uh, you know, call recorder, uh, primarily for that, cause it was so easy, but for anything that was more complicated, especially I had multiple. [01:12:50] Christina: People on like the, the, the thing you would use would be like audio hijack. And to my mind, there’s still nothing like audio hijack. Like even when, um, like when I was [01:13:00] doing rocket, like, uh, we had a few kind of bonus episodes and like one of actually our final bonus episode that we did for the show, Simone and I watched the movie her together, and I would not have been able to do that without audio hijack because I was able to bring in the audio from the movie. [01:13:14] Christina: So we were both watching like at the same time. And I was able to bring in the audio from the movie and have that at a lower level and then record our audio tracks separately from zoom so that, and then adjust the levels independently. And then when I was able to edit, when I edited it in a Descript, actually, which was, was great for, for that purpose, I was, I just didn’t have Descript run on the, the, her, um, part, because I was like, I’m not, I’m not having to transcribe that part of it. [01:13:38] Christina: I had to transcribe our other things. I was able to, you know, adjust the timeline and then, you know, um, lower, um, in, in, um, My editing things, you know, make the volume lower, but this was all stuff like I couldn’t have done. Without something like audio hijack. Like I, it just, it would not have been possible. [01:13:55] Christina: Like it really is, you know, your software ultimate, you know, like, [01:14:00] uh, what’s, what’s the term, I guess, like recording deck or mixer or whatever. Right. Like obviously having a, um, um, a separate, like, um, hardware mixer is great too. But, and it works with that, but like, this is a way that you can do so many things. [01:14:14] Christina: And, um, I, uh, I like you, like, I think the way that they visually lay out how the bricks work, like the blocks look like, that just helps my mind, like, feel like, Oh, okay, now I know what’s going on. And I think it’s brilliant, but yeah, so, so, so my, my, my pick is, is audio hijack. Um, and, uh, and I. But I’m a huge fan of all, all of their products and have been a Brogan Viva fan, like for like, they’re one of the original to me, like Mac ass Mac, you know, companies. [01:14:43] Brett: Yep, for sure. And, and I, my secondary pick for today would be loopback. Um, it has a more limited audience. Uh, but if you have say, like I have these complete audio [01:15:00] interfaces that I use that have six different outputs or six different inputs and four different outputs and. Um, with loopback, I can control, I can say, take the input from one and two and route it through my, my Bluetooth output, and then pass that through two outputs, four and six, and, and I can do, I can make like crazy, uh, echo. [01:15:31] Brett: I have, I have all kinds of my echo and my, um, HomePods. Like route through my complete audio and yeah, loopback, loopback makes these really complex scenarios workable, but go ahead. You’re going to [01:15:50] Christina: Uh, I was just gonna say, it’s especially good for anybody if like you’re using OBS a lot. [01:15:55] Brett: Oh, sure. [01:15:55] Christina: if you’re streaming, if you’re using OBS, something like Loopback, Sound Source too, but Loopback especially, it’d [01:16:00] be really, really useful if you’re, you know, dealing with like, I have my streaming machine and I have my broadcast machine, like. [01:16:08] Brett: But my actual pick for today, and I may have mentioned this before. Battery Management with Al Dente Pro [01:16:12] Brett: I have a terrible memory, but al dente pro. [01:16:16] Christina: it’s great. I don’t think we’ve mentioned it before, but I’ve used it. It’s great. [01:16:20] Brett: So what it does is for your laptop, for your Mac laptop, it can set in its most basic form, it can set a cap on how much charge your battery will accept. So that if your laptop is usually plugged in, you can set, say a 70 percent cap so that it’ll never charge to a hundred percent, which is. Bad for the battery to leave it plugged in at a [01:16:51] Christina: charged at 100%. [01:16:52] Brett: period. [01:16:53] Brett: So like my MacBook pro is always at 70%. And then when it unplugs, it [01:17:00] drains, and then it charges back up to 70%. I have the option to cap it up or. Top it off like you can hit top it off and it’ll charge it to 100 so you can go out. You know, you’re going on a trip, you’re going to the coffee house, whatever. [01:17:14] Brett: You can top it up before you go, but then the next time you charge, it’ll only go to 70%. It can discharge even while your MacBook is plugged in. So then you can have, uh, like weekly calibrations where it’ll. Discharge to 15 percent recharge to 100 percent and then discharge to your preferred level. Um, and it can display your actual battery, uh, [01:17:46] Christina: Capacity. Yeah. Yes. [01:17:48] Brett: Yeah, it can display your capacity so I can show you like your degradation of life over time, but it can also there’s a hardware reading. Of what your battery is [01:18:00] actually charged to that is not the same as what the typical battery output in the menu bar will tell you [01:18:08] Christina: Right. [01:18:10] Brett: and it’s. It’s interesting, but also very useful to know what the actual battery charges. [01:18:17] Christina: No, it really is. Yeah. I like [01:18:19] Brett: and it’s on set up. If you’re a setup subscriber, this is a no brainer. If you have a laptop, it’s useless on a desktop machine, but if you have a laptop, highly recommended [01:18:31] Christina: Yeah. No, I’m a big fan. Um, so, um, and, and I think that it’s, it’s a, it’s like 25 I think for a lifetime license or, um, uh, like they do have like a subscription, but if the subscription, you might as well just get set up in my opinion, um, and get a bunch of other apps too. But, um, it’s a great app. I started using it. [01:18:49] Christina: I think I heard about it and then it came to set up and, um, Like, uh, just, I guess for, for background, why people would want this. If you do have your laptop charged, plugged in a [01:19:00] lot, the, the battery health goes down significantly and, and you can wear down the batteries and, and battery replacements, although Apple will do them, you know, it’s a weird thing, like under Apple care, the. [01:19:12] Christina: The, they won’t do it if it’s under 80%, even if you pay them. Um, and, and, and it can be really difficult to, to, to even go in and be like, I want a battery replacement. They’re like, my battery is only doing 85%. They’ll be like, oh, well, we think it’s fine. I’m like, no, but I know that this, you know, the way the battery degregate. [01:19:28] Christina: Degradation works is that it’s, it’s incremental. Like it’s faster rather. Um, I can’t think of the right term. So like, once you get to that point where you’re like in the eighties, like, especially if you’re like in the low eighties exponential, thank you. It will. Super, super, you know, um, degrade much, much faster and, um, and like, but the thing is, is I don’t know how many people are going to go through like the, the cycle themselves of, okay, discharging to 15 percent then charging up and whatnot. [01:19:59] Christina: Like I used to [01:20:00] try to do those calibration things with things like coconut battery and whatnot. But what’s great is, is with Al dente is that it will stop the charging. Apple has some of this built into macOS now, and it’s pretty good. Like in terms of being able to be like, okay, we won’t charge all the way and we’ll do like smarter charging, but it’s not as robust as this. [01:20:18] Christina: And, and this also works. Um, you know, I think it works with Apple, uh, with Intel max too. Um, I’m not sure, but it, yeah. So, so it’ll work with, with older machines too, which is really good. Um, and it’s interesting. Windows machines have had some features like this for a while, where with certain types of, uh, like utilities, you could kind of, or with, with certain BIOS, um, uh, features, it’s a popular BIOS feature. [01:20:43] Christina: You can be like, I’m going to manually have this set to only charge to 8%. What I like about this better in some regards, it’s like you said, that top up feature, because there are times where like. I have, I, I similarly for my personal machine, like I have it set to charge to 80 percent just like, uh, like [01:21:00] you have yours is having to have mine to 80, but because it’s a 14 inch, you know, if I’m going out, depending on what I’m doing, I don’t want to be in that scenario where I only have 80 percent power so I can just like top it up. [01:21:12] Christina: And, and then, you know, I’m, I feel confident that my, my battery is going to last a really long time. And so you’re not losing out on anything in that regard, your battery staying healthy or longer, it’ll do the automatic. Like I just love to have the set calibration thing every week. Cause I’m like, okay, you know, I spent a lot of money on this laptop. [01:21:30] Christina: I don’t want to have to deal with. You know, getting the battery replaced. And I don’t want to deal with a scenario where I’m like three years and I’m like, this laptop is a great, but his battery sucks and Apple makes it really difficult to repair or replace. So [01:21:41] Brett: El Tente even controls your, the light on the plug. So like when it’s, when it’s, um, discharging while you’re plugged in it, like it flashes orange and then when it hits your cap, which for me is 70%, it [01:22:00] turns green to show it’s fully charged, even though it’s not. I like that. [01:22:04] Christina: I like that too. And I don’t know how they’ve been able to like do all the low level stuff they’ve done. Cause I know that Apple really probably doesn’t want people doing some of that stuff, but, but they’ve done a great job with it. So like, I’m, I’m a, I’m a big fan. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [01:22:17] Brett: Alright, well, thank you, Incogni, thank you, um, Rogamiba for keeping us on the air, it’s been a pleasure, you good with, you good with wrapping up here, [01:22:32] Christina: Yeah. I’m great with, with, with wrapping up here. This is fantastic. [01:22:36] Brett: Alright, get some sleep. [01:22:37] Christina: Get some sleep.

Brett and Christina return from a break (sans Jeff for a couple weeks) with an episode that’s part health saga, part tech chatter, and part retro gaming geek-out. Christina boasts a new gig at Google DeepMind, while Brett recounts his personal health battle featuring an unexpected guest: shingles. They commiserate over the state of big tech job markets and share their takes on ReadWise and the latest AR glasses. Sponsor Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. Show Links Google Deepmind VITURE glasses Analogue Mister Pi Mister FPGA Retro SuperStation kindaVim Readwise Reader Shortcutie Supercharge (now on Setapp) Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Catching Up 00:12 Christina’s New Job at Google DeepMind 01:42 Job Market Challenges 05:02 Mental Health Check-In 05:11 Health Updates and Shingles Experience 13:07 Reflections on Disabilities and Empathy 19:32 Social Media and Digital Presence 25:32 Sponsor: Incogni 27:38 Brett’s New New M4 MacBook Pro 29:03 Exploring Viture XR Glasses 29:44 Comparing Viture XR to Oculus and Vision Pro 33:24 Retro Gaming Consoles and Emulators 41:47 Gratitude and App Recommendations 46:45 Readwise and Productivity Tools 53:13 Closing Remarks and Sponsor Shoutouts Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript 426 [00:00:00] Introduction and Catching Up [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome back after a little break. This is Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren. Christina, how’s it going? [00:00:11] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. Christina’s New Job at Google DeepMind [00:00:12] Christina: Uh, I am no longer unemployed since we last talked. I, I have, I went on a cruise and uh, and then I started a new job. [00:00:21] Brett: I, I’d be willing to bet that there are a lot of people in our audience who are dealing with the frustration of how hard it is to find a job right now. So everyone’s jealous of you just hopping around between jobs like a, like a, like people used to in tech [00:00:39] Christina: No, I [00:00:40] Brett: jobs got so hard to get. [00:00:42] Christina: No, look, I, I, I don’t in any way, like I’m, I’m, I’m incredibly, incredibly grateful. Um, so, uh, I, I, my new job is I, I’m working in, uh, developer relations, um, at Google DeepMind. So that, that was, uh, that was the job that I took and I’m, I’m, um, I’m really excited. Um, I’m, it’s been a couple of weeks, uh, since I [00:01:00] started, there’s a ton to learn, um, uh, a ton of new processes to, but, but there’s a ton to learn in both ways, both about the company and how they work compared to, you know, what I’ve been doing the last. Three years at GitHub and then culturally kind of, you know, like five years before that at Microsoft. Um, and then, um, there’s a, just a ton to, to get caught up on, on, on all the, the, the Gemini and, and, um, AI studio and, and, and Jim of the open model stuff. So there’s just been, uh, it’s been, um, a lot, but, um, I’m incredibly, incredibly grateful that I have a job and that, that I was, you know, um, I guess like able to do, like you said, kind of like the traditional job movement kind of thing. [00:01:41] Christina: So Job Market Challenges [00:01:42] Brett: Did you know that while unemployment is still pretty low, um, and it was like record low a couple years ago, but it doesn’t [00:01:52] Christina: that was a lie. [00:01:54] Brett: but job hiring, job hiring is actually at [00:02:00] like great depression rates right now. Like it is, there’s a job freeze out there and I know I felt it like I’m ready to, I’m ready to look around, but the more I look around and the more I do like initial interviews, the more I realized, like, I just don’t have a lot of options right now. [00:02:17] Brett: And, um, I’m grateful that I have a certain amount of stability with my job right now. We’ll see how long that lasts. [00:02:24] Christina: Yeah. I mean, the only thing that I’ve kind of like come to terms with over the last like few years is it’s like the only certainty is that there is none, right? Like the days of stability, um, I think in, in, in big tech, like regardless of like where you are, like is gone, which is. Um, because that was obviously like [00:02:44] Brett: Oh, it used to be, yeah, [00:02:45] Christina: used [00:02:46] Brett: I can barely remember that, but it used to be like, if you can get a job in tech, you’re set. [00:02:51] Christina: Totally. Totally. And, and I was one of those people where I was just like, Oh man, like, uh, I felt like I kind of missed the wave a little bit because like I, I went from an industry that did [00:03:00] not have job stability and then like I had like a good five years or so, you know, and, and, uh, you know, and there was some, and then like it, it hit and it’s like, there is not anymore. [00:03:09] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but yeah, no, your, your point about like the hiring levels being low are, um, or non existent are so true. And then the other thing too is like, When a few years ago, when the, the, uh, Biden administration was like, Oh, we have record low unemployment. Even then I was like, you’re full of shit because you only count unemployment, not underemployment. [00:03:31] Christina: And there are so many things there that don’t get like reported. So if you have any job at all, or if you’ve worked anytime in like the last, like whatever the, the, the, you know, the, the way is that they’ve like rated it, then you’re counted as an employee. But that means that there are people who’ve been laid off, but now we’re driving occasionally for Uber. [00:03:48] Christina: Or are, you know, doing like an occasional freelance thing, like is counting, you know, [00:03:53] Brett: who have given up on finding employment. They’re no longer [00:03:57] Christina: huge, they’re no longer counting because they’re not paying into the, they’re [00:04:00] not getting unemployment benefits that my pain into the system. And so we just celebrated, Oh yeah, it’s, it’s so great. No, it’s not. [00:04:05] Christina: And it hasn’t been, and it’s really terrible and like not to get too ahead of things or whatever, but like, it does make me feel sort of conflicted because like my current employment and like the things that I’m interested in focusing on the future for lots of reasons, like AI. Are actively also being used to go potentially like reduce employment across industries. [00:04:30] Christina: So like, I, I don’t not feel weird about that. I, I, I’m fully aware of, of the dichotomy and, and, uh, like, uh, you know, hypocrisy and what I’m, I’m fully aware of it, but I’m also, I’m just going to fucking be honest. We live in a system and we live in a society, you know, as, as the saying goes, and I, I’m not going to opt out of, you know what I mean? [00:04:56] Christina: Like I’m going to be selfish. So like as, as much as that sucks to [00:05:00] say, [00:05:01] Brett: Yeah. All right. Mental Health Check-In [00:05:02] Brett: Should we do a mental health check in? [00:05:04] Christina: yeah, yeah. Let’s start with you because, um, I want to hear how you’ve been doing, especially with your health stuff and everything else. [00:05:11] Brett: yeah. Yeah. Health Updates and Shingles Experience [00:05:11] Brett: I’ve actually been doing really well So I I got my diagnoses we talked about that and I started doing some simple interventions for some of my health problems like the passing out I just I drink three liters of water a day with five grams of salt in it And that on its own, simple over the counter remedy, I, I no longer get dizzy when I stand up. [00:05:42] Brett: Um, I don’t pass out at all. Uh, most of my life is because of that returning to some, some, it’s a new normal, but it’s a normal, and I’m able to like drive and get myself around and. Uh, We go up and down my [00:06:00] stairs so I can get down to my office easily. And, um, so that’s all been really good. I got shingles last week. [00:06:07] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. You sold us that. And like, that’s insane. How, okay. First of all, like you had chicken pox as a kid, right? [00:06:13] Brett: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t shing chickenpox does not immunize you from shingles. Chickenpox doesn’t even technically immunize you from chickenpox. Uh, there’s a certain, there’s a certain, they don’t know exactly how many years it gives you immunity for. But it’s certainly not a lifetime. And the virus that causes chickenpox stays with you your entire life. [00:06:34] Brett: It never goes away. It just waits for an opportune time and then it can surface as shingles. Um, and, and you shouldn’t be able to get shingles again within like they, they say minimum of a year. Um, and you have to wait a year before you can get the shingles antivirus vaccine. Yes. [00:06:53] Christina: whatever. Yeah. I was, okay. That’s what I, okay. So, but like, but you’re so young, like that’s cause like, I was just thinking, I mean, [00:07:00] I guess [00:07:00] Brett: Oh, my, my ex wife Aditi got shingles when she was, must’ve been about 32, 33. Um, and yeah, it’s, it can happen at any point, um, in your adult life. Even with or without chicken pox, like when I was a kid, we still had chicken pox parties. I don’t know if you were around for that, [00:07:24] Christina: No, no, I was, [00:07:25] Brett: in the neighborhood would get chicken pox and all the parents would get all the, and get everyone fucking chicken pox and, and supposedly immunize them for, you know, their life. [00:07:36] Brett: But it might prevent childhood chicken pox from happening again. But since it only happens once, why force it on anyone? They don’t do that anymore. Nobody does chicken pox parties [00:07:48] Christina: No, no, no, no. So I was like, right at the era when like there was the vaccine, but I still got it because this girl in kindergarten, Brandy, her dad brought her in. [00:08:00] And I remember this because I knew, I knew like there was something wrong. And like, she was kind of sitting like, she was sitting near me and she was like using my crown. [00:08:07] Christina: And I was like, Brandy’s sick and I’m going to get sick. And I think like the dad was like, brought her in, like, didn’t know, I think she might have chicken pox or something. And, and I don’t know, I don’t know if he said that. Uh, I just remember knowing that she was, yeah. Not well, and that she was using my crayon and I was like, I’m going to get sick. [00:08:23] Christina: And yep. Like, like that is how I got chicken box. Like that is, I know it, that is how I got chicken box. I woke up like on a Saturday and I had like something on my face and I still have a little scar on, it was like the first one, like on my chin and I was like picking at it and I was like, why do I have a pimple? [00:08:36] Christina: And my mom was like, Oh shit. Um. And, and I might’ve given it to the next door neighbors, but, but this was like, it was that weird time because the vaccine had just come out. Um, but because I got it like naturally, you know, it was like too late. [00:08:53] Brett: Um, yeah, well, so this happened after I had 10 days of insomnia over the course of 10 [00:09:00] days, I got like a total of 15 hours of sleep, maybe 18 hours of sleep over 10 days, um, which comes out to, you know. Less than two hours a night. Um, and it was my body and my immune system was just wrecked from not sleeping. [00:09:15] Brett: And, um, finally my doctor put me on trazodone, which helped for a couple of nights and as soon as I started sleeping again, then I got shingles. Um, and at first, like, so I’ve started also as part of my, uh, mass cell activation syndrome, I get, uh, histamine reactions and apparently All kinds of foods are high in histamines. [00:09:40] Brett: And I had really didn’t know what histamines were until this started happening, but like any food that you leave in the fridge for three days starts to build histamines, but things like aged meat, take things like pepperoni, things like, um, tofu and soy sauce, all are high in histamines. [00:10:00] And if I hit a certain threshold of histamines in a day, I get like horrible skin burning. [00:10:07] Brett: And, uh, I guess that’s the primary, the primary way it manifests for me is with this intense prickly skin burning that I get. Um, and so at first when I got shingles, I thought I was having some kind of histamine reaction that was showing up as like pox on my skin. Um, and, I believed that for a good 12 hours, but my histamine reactions really only lasts for about half an hour and then they fade and this kept going. [00:10:37] Brett: And I was like, Oh, this must be a really bad histamine reaction. So then I started Googling, started doing a little web searching. Why is this happening to me? And the first thing that came up was shingles. And I was like, Oh yeah, I’ve heard of this. So I went to the doctor and they’re like, yep, you have shingles. [00:10:54] Brett: And, uh, they put me on Valtrex and. [00:11:00] They prescribed gabapentin for my pain, but I was already taking 1800 milligrams of gabapentin. So that basically I was already covered at night anyways. So I got through it. It lasted about, um, five, six days and then I was fully recovered. I feel fine now. Yeah. So that’s my health, mental health wise. [00:11:29] Brett: I’m also doing pretty well. Um, I had to cut, right. I had to cut back my Vivense a little bit. My doctor, while we’re trying to figure out my whole sleep thing, wanted to like reduce my stimulant intake a bit, which is fine. It didn’t, it hasn’t really affected my like daytime concentration levels going down like 10 milligrams. [00:11:55] Brett: And. Uh, my focus has been pretty good. I’ve been getting my work [00:12:00] done. I’ve been, um, still a little slow getting back into doing the dishes and walking the dog after the shingles. But like, I’m starting to pick back up on that. And I would say overall, um, if I can keep my sleep up, I’m doing all right. [00:12:19] Christina: Good, good. Well, I’m really glad to hear about that because I’ve been worried about you for both the health and the mental health stuff. So, um, [00:12:28] Brett: Yeah. It’s, it’s been a, it’s been a ride, but I think, uh, I think things are leveling out for me. [00:12:34] Christina: good. I’m really glad. And, and I hope that like keep the other stuff like an in check, like I’m glad, like you’re not passing out anymore or anything, but like, I hope that like this new normal can still be more temporary and that, you know, you can get to a point where you’re feeling like you were like before, you were having [00:12:50] Brett: Yeah, I feel like that’s possible now for a while there. It seemed like, like I was screwed and my life would never be the same again, but it seems like, yeah, I [00:13:00] might get back to, uh, to feeling more like a whole person again. [00:13:05] Christina: That would be really good. That Reflections on Disabilities and Empathy [00:13:07] Brett: Not that being disabled makes you a non whole person. I don’t [00:13:11] Christina: No, I know. Well, that’s not that. That’s not. [00:13:13] Brett: have, like, I got really down about my perceived disabilities and it made me really aware of like, what. Disabled people go through and the kind of, um, internal and external, uh, discrimination they do face. [00:13:32] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:13:33] Brett: and I, I’ve always been careful about that, but now I’m like truly aware of it and, and trying to catch myself from being ableist when I can help it. [00:13:44] Christina: Yeah. But I mean, like, I, I think though, the, just saying like, cause obviously you’re not saying the people who, but, but, but I think there’s like important things to differentiate between two, right? Like there, there are like, when you have a temporary thing and this isn’t in any way to discount or, or, or like, like make a qualification about, [00:14:00] uh, people who, who live with disabilities or whatever, but like when it’s temporary, I think that we can feel and like perceive like. [00:14:08] Christina: You know what I mean? Like if it is a loss and it does suck versus like, and how you cope with it is different than if something is permanent, right? Like if something is permanent, whether you, whether you’re born with it or you acquire it, like you can, you can come up with solutions and like you can come up with like ways to, to, you know. Exactly. And, and even just like mentally like deal with, with, with it, right. Or it will figure out like, okay, I can still thrive regardless of this. Right. But when it’s like a temporary thing or you don’t know if it’s going to be temporary or longer, like it’s, it’s much more frustrating. Like I gained a lot of empathy when I, um, uh, was hit by the car and I broke my wrist and I, but, but when I was still in traction before I got the cast on and I couldn’t type and I had to like use my left hand for everything. [00:14:51] Christina: And I was like, what am I going to do? Right. Like, I, I can’t like. You know, uh, and this is before, uh, voice to speech stuff was as good as it is now. [00:15:00] Now, we are at a place I think where I would have been able to even do some coding type of stuff, you know, with my voice, which just was not even really a thing seven years ago, which is, which is wild to think about, but it wasn’t. [00:15:11] Christina: Um, but, um, Like, but just that, that brief kind of period and kind of realize, and I was like, wow, I’ve taken so many things for granted, but B, it did make me think when I was looking at solutions, I was like, okay, if I had to live like this all the time, I would be able to figure out a one handed keyboard. [00:15:26] Christina: I would be able to, you know, figure out like other stuff, but when it’s like a thing and you’re like, okay, this is maybe like a, like a, a six week thing. It’s different, you know, and, and, and it’s, and it’s a different challenge and it doesn’t, yeah, you know, like, again, like you like not trying to be like ableist in any way, but just acknowledging, like, it sucks when things, especially related to your, your physical body change and you can’t do what you used to do. [00:15:56] Brett: So how are you? [00:15:58] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. Um, [00:16:00] I’m mental health is okay. Um, you know, going through a lot of changes and just kind of like dealing with all of that stuff. Um, but I’m just, um, which in some ways like being overwhelmed can be a good like way to press down anything else that’s going on. So, you know, it’s just like, just overrun your senses. [00:16:19] Christina: So yeah, I’m, I’m doing pretty good. Like [00:16:21] Brett: What else could be going on? I don’t know what you could be talking [00:16:24] Christina: yeah, exactly. I I’m honestly, I’m doing everything I can to like, not focus. And I know this comes from a place of privilege. I get it. I’m not discounting that, but I also have to protect my own mental health. And for my own mental health, I’m like not, I’m actively trying to not engage as much as I possibly can. [00:16:41] Christina: Cause I just can’t do it. [00:16:43] Brett: Yeah, I’m the same. And we can we can talk about that separately, but go on with your mental health. [00:16:49] Christina: no, that, but that is kind of part of it, right? So I’m just, you know, trying to stay, you know, focused on other things and just, and yeah, avoidism, you know, sometimes it’s a necessary thing. Like I’m all about [00:17:00] confronting stuff and facing it, but if there’s nothing that we can really do, [00:17:03] Brett: Exactly. Like why, why lose sleep when you can’t make a difference? Like do what you can figure out where you can fit in. But paying attention to every little news story right now and getting. You know, online upset about every little thing that happens is going to kill you because it’s not going to stop and it’s not going to let up and you’re asking for a life of torment. [00:17:33] Christina: totally, totally. [00:17:36] Brett: Yeah, I was, um, are you done with your mental health [00:17:41] Christina: I’m done with my mental health. Yeah. [00:17:42] Brett: This isn’t on our list to talk about, but I was going through. My, I, I added basically like my entire data hoarding life to Devin think, [00:17:54] Christina: Uh [00:17:54] Brett: and it was surfacing some things that I had forgotten about. And I [00:18:00] found the, when Tua shut down, I made everyone books of everything they’d written for Tua. [00:18:07] Brett: Um, I think I have yours somewhere, but I really only kept track of my own and I was reading through it and man, I was actually a pretty good writer. I don’t know what happened to me since then, but [00:18:20] Christina: You’re a great writer. I think, [00:18:21] Brett: I don’t remember writing any of those words. [00:18:25] Christina: If you have mine, I would love it. Like, if you’re ever able to come across it, I would, [00:18:28] Brett: Yeah, I’ll see what I can dig [00:18:29] Christina: That would, that would be fantastic. But, because I would just love to go and see, like, early Christina writing. It’s always so funny because writing is one of those things that, like, You really do. [00:18:39] Christina: It is a muscle and it is one of those things that, that you can, um, uh, you get better at it the more you do it, but you can also get like rustier, like if you don’t do it all the time or if it changes. And I noticed that even with myself, right? Like I don’t write the way that I used to and I can get it. I can get it back. [00:18:55] Christina: I feel like, but it’s not like if I, if I was to go back into the thing where they’re like, [00:19:00] you need to write this number of posts a day or this number of things a day, I could do that. But like, it would take me. At least like, you know, a few weeks, you know, [00:19:10] Brett: a few weeks a month. Yeah, [00:19:11] Christina: yeah, a month, a month, a month to like ramp up again. [00:19:14] Christina: Um, [00:19:16] Brett: that muscle every day and getting back into it. [00:19:18] Christina: well, this is why, like, honestly, maybe this is a thing I need to like, um, make myself do like for my own mental health is I used to like journal or at least write for myself like every day. And I haven’t done that in years. And I feel like that would be. Social Media and Digital Presence [00:19:32] Christina: Uh, a good thing for a long time, like, like Twitter and social media and things like that, even though it wasn’t long form, was at least still a way to like, write, um, and, and express and kind of exercise that a little bit, but all of that is such a cesspool and hard to, you know. [00:19:48] Christina: Navigate like, where do I post and where are my people and all that that I’m just like, and yeah, I, I am still on Twitter or X or whatever. Um, and, and that is largely for work reasons and no, I’m not going to apologize for it [00:20:00] and I’m not going to defend it. It is what it is. Like we all have things that we have to do. [00:20:03] Christina: And if people are unhappy with me for that, I respect that. Um, I’ve tried to be on some of the other platforms too, but it, it just sucks because everything is, you know, dispersed and, and [00:20:13] Brett: I held out on Twitter for quite a while. I just deleted my account last week, um, because I had checked it a couple times over a few month period and I was not getting any DMS. Like the reason I was hanging onto it was mostly because I used to get like, um, Mark tech support questions, uh, via DM there. [00:20:35] Brett: Um, and sometimes like press inquiries and sponsorship inquiries and things like that via DM and that was not happening and. Um, I wasn’t active there anymore. [00:20:47] Christina: Right. I mean, at that point, there’s [00:20:49] Brett: of wanted [00:20:49] Christina: there. [00:20:50] Brett: the only reason I would have kept my account there is so that no one else could take my handle and, and make fake [00:21:00] statements on my behalf. [00:21:01] Brett: I don’t know that I’m a target for that kind of thing. I don’t think I’m popular enough for that to be a concern. Um, so I just. I just, I couldn’t, I couldn’t in good conscience maintain any presence on the platform anymore. And no judgment, like, I [00:21:19] Christina: No, no, no, and, and, and, no, no, no, no, and, and, and, and I don’t feel judged that way, and I, and I respect that. Like I said, like, I feel like if that’s people’s, like, thing, like, that is, I completely respect that, and I wouldn’t tell anybody, like, oh, well, that’s. You know, uh, uh, you’re, you know, invalid for, for thinking that, or, or your morality is, should be focused on more important things. [00:21:38] Christina: Like, that’s not at all what I think I’m like, you, that’s how you feel. And if you’re not getting anything out of it, you shouldn’t be someplace like even putting the morality stuff aside. And, and I don’t think we should, but even putting that aside, if you’re not getting anything out of someplace, like you don’t need to be there, right? [00:21:51] Christina: Like if, if people aren’t, if your people aren’t there and if it’s not [00:21:54] Brett: If you’re not getting anything out of someplace and it’s actively toxic. [00:21:58] Christina: Right, right. Then, then, [00:22:00] then, like, then, then, fuck it. Right? Um, and, and I certainly don’t get out of it what I, I once did. Right? But there are reasons that I have to be there. And so, that is, that is fine. Um, for, for me. But it sucks though, just because it’s like, again, like, all the platforms suck in their own ways. [00:22:16] Christina: And you know, you know, we have to kind of, and if you have people who are everywhere, then it’s like, you have to replicate things everywhere. Like even just when I announced like that I was changing jobs, I had to like do it like on six different places where before, like I could just like pen a tweet, you know, and be like, okay, everyone knows. [00:22:33] Christina: Um, it is what it is, but [00:22:37] Brett: I keep forgetting about LinkedIn and all of this and like, as much as I don’t want to think LinkedIn matters for, for my, for my circle and my tech job and all of that, like, I, I log into LinkedIn and I’ll always have like 40 to 50 messages waiting for me because I haven’t checked it for like a month. [00:22:58] Christina: And that’s how I feel. I’m terrible with [00:23:00] LinkedIn. Like, and I know it’s important and I know it should be like more active there. I just, I can’t. [00:23:05] Brett: Of course, out of those 50 messages, like five of them will just be LinkedIn trying to sell me on LinkedIn premium. [00:23:12] Christina: Yeah. And, and I, I, I, I, I pay for LinkedIn premium. Well, okay. So Microsoft gives people, gives employees a 75 percent discount. So it’s like 20 a month. Now, as an alumni, I apparently. They have an alumni program where you can still get the discount on LinkedIn and some other things. And for the first year, the alumni program is free. [00:23:35] Christina: So great. So it means that I still get access to the employee discounts, at least like for the software and, um, a couple of other things. And then I think it’s like a hundred dollars a year or whatever. And, and, um, and I don’t, I don’t know if I’ll renew. Well, it depends if I’m still using LinkedIn premium because there. [00:23:51] Christina: The benefits of LinkedIn premium is you can send a message to anybody. And there are a couple of other things too that are, you know, can be useful, especially if you’re ever asked to like post [00:24:00] content or whatever. But like, um, I would never pay personally, I would never pay 60 a month for it. Um, Oh, you also get LinkedIn learning, LinkedIn learning, which is valuable. [00:24:08] Christina: So that’s like lynda. com, but like a lot of. You know, the library, I think most, most public libraries have deals with LinkedIn learning, um, pro tip, if, if you’re wanting to like get really good training courses and whatnot, check with your local library and see if they have a LinkedIn learning subscription, they probably do in which case. [00:24:24] Christina: You know, you get access to a ton of stuff because, because LinkedIn learning is actually a really great resource, but like I would personally not pay 60 a month, but 20 is, you know, different. And I was not able to expense it before if I’m actively using things in the new role, I might be able to, I don’t know. [00:24:45] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but regardless, 20 is. Is, is a much different, um, uh, like calculation, so, you know, like that, that’s, that, that’s fine. [00:25:00] But, um, uh, Yeah. So I don’t get those, but I get like a lot of, and I’m sure you get this too, because you work at a big tech company. Like you get lots of people connecting with you because they want, and I completely understand, but they, they, they want jobs or they want advice on how to get a job or other stuff. [00:25:14] Christina: And I’m like, I, I don’t know how to help you, especially if you’re [00:25:17] Brett: Yeah, [00:25:17] Christina: country where we’ve never met. Like, I, I, I don’t know how to help you, you know? [00:25:21] Brett: I do. No. All right. I want to tell you about my new AR glasses, but first I am going to. Take a sponsor break. Um, Sponsor: Incogni [00:25:32] Brett: this episode is sponsored by Incogni, a cutting edge service designed to safeguard your personal data. Did you know that data brokers collect and sell your sensitive personal information? This leads to unwanted spam, identity theft, and a loss of control over what’s shared online. [00:25:50] Brett: From people search sites to targeted scams, the risks are real and they’re affecting lives every day. But there’s good news. 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You can extend the same robust protection to up to four additional family members. This means that your entire family or your close circle can benefit from incognis [00:27:00] vigilant data removal and monitoring service, providing peace of mind for everyone. [00:27:05] Brett: Take control of your digital privacy. Now visit incognito. com slash overtired. That’s I N C O G N I and secure your data today. Sign up and enjoy a 30 day money back guarantee. Protect your privacy with incognito and experience peace of mind. [00:27:23] Brett: Knowing your personal information is safe. Take your personal data back with incognito. Use the code overtired at the link in the show notes or visit incognito. com slash overtired and get 60 percent off an annual plan. Brett’s New New M4 MacBook Pro [00:27:38] Brett: So, um, so I’ve been working on, I got my new, new. M4 MacBook Pro, this time with two terabytes of storage instead of the mistaken 256 gigabytes of storage that I had gotten, um, and two terabit, two terabytes is the right amount for me.[00:28:00] [00:28:00] Brett: Um, like I immediately filled up about a terabyte of it and now I have a terabyte of like room to breathe. Um, so I’m, I’m pretty good with that. I. It is so fast. I got the M4 Max Pro Pro it’s the pro and it it’s 10 cores and 48 gigs of RAM. And it is so nice to work on that. I actually have been neglecting my M1 studio. [00:28:30] Brett: Um, And that has meant on my, on my studio, I have two 32 inch monitors, um, that. I was really used to, and at first working on a laptop, even a 16 inch laptop screen seemed very confining. Um, but I got really good at using spaces, which and full screen apps, which I [00:29:00] had never. Appreciated before. Exploring Viture XR Glasses [00:29:03] Brett: And then I just yesterday got a pair of Vicher. [00:29:09] Brett: It looks like virtue, V I T U R E, it’s Vicher. Um. They’re not even AR, they’re VR glasses, but, um, they [00:29:21] Christina: think they call them XR or something. [00:29:23] Brett: what does that even mean? [00:29:25] Christina: I don’t know. Like, uh, yeah. Yeah. I can’t remember what the XR stands for yet. I think [00:29:31] Brett: Yeah, I think you’re correct though. And, they look like, like a pair of Ray Bans. And, um, like I own, um, Uh, what’s the metal one? Oculus. Comparing Viture XR to Oculus and Vision Pro [00:29:44] Brett: I, I own an Oculus and it’s okay, but it is ungainly and it can’t connect to your, your Mac. Um, like you can’t use it as an external display in your Mac. So that’s what intrigued me about the Vire, vier [00:30:00] Vitor, um, glasses is, they’re like 400 bucks and um, and you can set up multiple desktops. [00:30:11] Brett: In the glasses for your Mac book and they connect over a USB C port. And so sitting at my Mac book, I can see through the bottom of the glasses. I can see my keyboard and my track pad if I need to. And then I have, right now I have it set up to have three desktops. Um, and I can pan left and right to see all three desktops, um, at once. [00:30:36] Brett: And. I am pretty impressed. I think it’s a little jittery compared to like the Oculus and I’m certain compared to like, uh, the vision pro, uh, for 400 bucks, it does the trick [00:30:50] Christina: Yeah, I mean, like, like, let’s put this in perspective. Yeah, I think like the price for the because I’m looking at their website right now. It’s it’s 4. 59. But the limited time [00:31:00] offer is 50 off. And I bet that limited time offer has been the limited time offer for a while. [00:31:04] Christina: Um, [00:31:05] Brett: be, uh, [00:31:06] Christina: correct, right? So you’re talking about like 410 before, you know, tax or whatever. And, um, they’re claiming, um, you know, uh, 135 inch, 120 Hertz, full HD display. Um, and, uh, you know, so that’s obviously going to be lower resolution than the vision pro, but the vision pro is starts at 3, 500, but. But you know, like that’s only going to give you like, I think like the smallest amount of storage. [00:31:34] Christina: So if you want anything decent, you’re starting at like, I think like 3, 700 and then you’ve got to add in, you know, getting the right strap because the straps that come in the box are garbage. You’ve got to get the Falcon strap and you’ve got to get like some other things and you probably want to, you know what I mean? [00:31:49] Christina: By the time you get tax involved, you’re spending over 4, 000 period. End of story. Unless you live in a tax free state. So like. [00:31:56] Brett: it’s 10 times as [00:31:58] Christina: It’s ten times as much and, and, [00:32:00] and, you know, oh, and there are no apps. So, you know, your experience is, is pretty limited. Whereas this, um, uh, now, is there an app that you use with it? [00:32:10] Christina: Like, is that what controls? Okay. [00:32:12] Brett: It has, it has this app called space Walker, um, and it pops up and. Asked for screen recording permissions, and then it gives you a menu of like one display that is basically just a mirror of your desktop display or, you know, any up to like six stack displays. Um, and the only one I’ve tried so far is the three horizontal. [00:32:37] Brett: Configuration, um, and that, cause that’s pretty much the way I usually set up my desktop, like in IRL to, [00:32:46] Christina: Right. Yeah. [00:32:48] Brett: so yeah, it’s, it’s working [00:32:52] Christina: yeah, I’m like looking at it because I’m actually kind of interested. There would be some [00:32:56] Brett: great for watching movies on your iPhone [00:32:58] Christina: Well, that’s what I. [00:32:59] Brett: it when [00:33:00] I travel. [00:33:00] Christina: Well, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, if I was thinking for movies, it could be really good. And I was also thinking like, um, I’m looking at the website, like they have like it showing it with the steam deck and the steam deck. [00:33:09] Christina: I feel like that would be a really perfect like way of, of getting, you know, I [00:33:15] Brett: Yeah. And, and with a switch, it’s supposed to be really good with a switch too. [00:33:20] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Um, I have to say, like, sorry, go on. Retro Gaming Consoles and Emulators [00:33:24] Brett: no, you don’t, I’m sorry, I’m changing the topic cause I just found this, um, Uh, this product, I think the company was called all eight bit. Have you seen this? Uh, it’s like a little HDMI box. That’s like four inches by one inch. And it has like every classic emulator, every time, every classic, uh, console emulator dating back to probably Atari. [00:33:51] Christina: Oh yeah. I’m seeing this now. [00:33:52] Brett: And it comes with like every game and it’s like, I think it was like 200 bucks and you’re basically buying [00:34:00] like 10 different classic console systems and hundreds of games. And I’m not a big like gamer, but I do have nostalgia for like old NES, a super SNES games and even some like Nintendo 64 is included in there. [00:34:20] Brett: And playing like Mario cart would be a blast. So I went ahead and I bought that. I haven’t gotten it yet, but I bought it. [00:34:27] Christina: No, I’m interested to see what it is. I mean, I have a, I have a feeling like I need to like look at the, the, the specs of a feeling like, um, I, I know like there, there are a lot of these, these, um, types of boxes out there, but this, this one’s cool, like in terms of it coming with, um, the controllers and, and obviously, and, and, and the cores, which is what the systems are known as being, um, you know, installed. [00:34:47] Christina: And then, um, but, uh, I’ve been using this thing, so there’s, are you familiar with, um, uh, The, uh, the Mr. FPGA program, um, um, um, I guess like a project. [00:34:59] Brett: No, [00:34:59] Christina: [00:35:00] So, so, so Mr., uh, or known as like Mr. FPGA, it’s basically an open source project that like will recreate, um, classic gaming consoles, but it will do it on an FPGA based hardware rather than emulation. [00:35:12] Christina: So, um, are you familiar with FPGAs? [00:35:15] Brett: I am not. I was going to ask you to explain that to [00:35:18] Christina: Okay, so an FPGA, I think that stands for, I think it is Field Programmable, uh, Graphics Array, I think that’s what it is. Let me check that FPGA wiki. Um, [00:35:30] Brett: golf association. [00:35:32] Christina: I was correct. Uh, no, it’s not graphics. It’s Field Programmable, um, Gate Array. But basically, this is like a, a type of, um, circuit that can be, like, programmed to, Exactly emulate or not even emulate, but I guess like basically be like the same, like run the same instruction set. [00:35:47] Christina: It says another type of hardware. So like how people started using these things or how I first found out about these things, uh, probably like, like 10 or 11 years ago was that people would, would program these, these boards to basically, um, [00:36:00] uh, perfectly, um, uh, like emulator or playback the byte code of like older, um, uh, like, uh, Computing systems, you know, like Commodores or Amigas or even like early Macs and and they were able to to do that. [00:36:12] Christina: And so that’s made them really, really good for video game consoles, especially older consoles like like the Nintendo Super Nintendo, you know, um, Um, you know, PlayStation, um, even the Nintendo 64, if you can basically get a board that’s powerful enough and has like enough memory and whatnot, you can program it. [00:36:30] Christina: And then what that will do is that means that you can play the ROMs or in some cases, like at the actual physical hardware, byte for byte, the exact same way as a regular system would. So you can basically like, it’s this board of, it has the right software on it, you can, you know, use the other stuff with it. [00:36:45] Christina: And it’s not emulation in the same way. It’s like, it’s hardware emulation, but like that. The software will play and we’ll output that the same way as other things did. And so there’s a company called analog, a N a L O G U E. Um, [00:37:00] and their sister company is eight bit dough, eight bit dough, which, um, makes like, um, uh, both a new and, um, uh, new controllers as well as like Bluetooth, um, uh, accessories to connect more modern controllers to. [00:37:13] Christina: Older consoles, but, um, and vice versa, but, um, they basically have like a, a professional, uh, like, I guess, closed source version to a certain extent of Mr. FPGA, which is a project. Sorry to go back. So Mr. FPGA is an open source project basically designed to like figure out, okay, you can build your own FP with your. [00:37:32] Christina: The proper FPGA board you can build and the right software you can build your own like mini console system that can play, you know, ROMs back the best way possible and you can output it both to analog or digital depending on what, you know, For as you get in, what set up you do. Um, and it’s pretty cool. [00:37:47] Christina: Analog makes like a more professional version of this usually aimed at like. One specific console and with analog is actually designed to work with the original hardware. So if you have like the, the, um, analog super [00:38:00] Nintendo, um, uh, system, then like you can use the real cartridges the same with their [00:38:05] Brett: Oh, wow. [00:38:05] Christina: one. [00:38:06] Christina: Um, and I have there. I have their Super Nintendo and I have the Nintendo 64, um, pre ordered and they came out with the Analog Pocket, um, a few years ago, which will play back Game Boy and Game Boy Color games. Um, and I think Game Boy Advanced as well. Um, and, uh, so, um, but, um, there’s this other company, but the Mr. [00:38:27] Christina: FPGA program is really, really cool. Uh, but the problem is, is that the boards to, um, build those systems have become really expensive in the last few years. And so, like, it used to be a couple hundred dollars to be able to, to get in on one of these systems. And now you could spend like 400. And like, at that point, most people are going to be like you. [00:38:46] Christina: They’re just going to buy, like, the regular emulated box. You know, that you can get that has a bunch of ROMs, right? Because they don’t fucking care enough about like the, the bite for bite stuff, but it is still really cool for people who like to tinker, right? You want that. And so there is this [00:39:00] guy, um, it goes by tacky Udon, um, on social media. [00:39:03] Christina: And, um, he started a company called retro remake and he was basically able, he created a project called Mr. Pie. We’ll have all of this in the show notes. Um, and it is not a raspberry pie, even though like the name, he’s taken it from that, but he has taken kind of a raspberry pie approach where, um, and, and, and unfortunately his boards are not in stock very often. [00:39:23] Christina: Um, and they kind of go in waves, but he has like a, um, you know, sold, um, last year, like he was able to get like. Um, a Mr. FPGA completely compatible board with some improvements even in my opinion, about how the design was done, where you could get a completely completed system for like 180 bucks. So I did like, you’d have to bring your own ROMs, but it would be assembled and it would have with the analog and the, um, you know, uh, digital output and, you know, there like other things involved, really cool stuff. [00:39:51] Christina: Um, he started a project, um, uh, that, that he launched, I guess, like. End of January or in February called the [00:40:00] superstation one and I’m going to send you this link in our chat, right? Now, um, so that you can see it. And this is really, um, cool. Um, it is, um, like he’s calling it. He’s basically, this is his take on, um, the, the analog consoles. [00:40:21] Christina: So he’s calling it the retro, um, uh, the superstation one, and, and he’s calling it the world’s first affordable FPGA gaming console, a recreation of the best console, the nineties open source from day one. So all this is very different from the, um. Existing things. So he’s made it look like a PlayStation. [00:40:36] Christina: Um, specifically PS one and actually the redesigned PS one, but it will work with any of the other systems and cores and then he’s also going to have a doc that he’ll have available, um, that will play CDs. So you could even use like. You know, like your old like discs or burned or roms or whatever. But, um, [00:40:58] Brett: bucks. That’s nuts. [00:40:59] Christina: yeah, [00:41:00] this guy is incredible. [00:41:01] Christina: The stuff that he’s been able to put out. And like, I have to say, I got my, my Mr. Pie, um, last year and, uh, it was great. Um, like I bought it kind of on a whim and I was just like, like. Anyway, he he’s like one of the few reasons kind of like worth using Twitter because like he’s he’s active on Twitter and stuff. [00:41:18] Christina: But like, um, yeah, um, so this could be a rabbit hole for you. I think you’re going to love the system you get and I want to hear a review on it. But, um, if you find yourself liking it and want something like. Maybe it goes to the next level, like maybe, maybe consider getting one of the, like the, the, um, retro station, the superstation one rather. [00:41:37] Brett: Yeah. That looks super cool. Really slick. Nice. All right. Well, that was a. A diversion from anything we had planned to talk about. All right. Gratitude and App Recommendations [00:41:47] Brett: So, uh, let’s do a gratitude. Um, do you want to kick off, [00:41:53] Christina: Yes. So, um, this one, and I don’t think we’ve mentioned it before. Um, I actually bought it when it first came out, but now it is [00:42:00] available on set apps. So Sandra Sorjas, who we’ve talked about before, because he’s just like, uh, epically like prolific with his GitHub profile and releasing, um, open source apps and free apps. [00:42:10] Christina: And he makes a lot of like Mac apps too. He has two things that are, that he’s released recently that are cool. Um, the first is one called shortcutty, which is a Mac app that is basically like a, uh, a shortcuts app for, for, for Mac. So like you can do a, um, it’s, it’s similar to actions, which is his iOS app for, for, um, iPad and iPhone that will like give you more functionality for the shorts cause app. [00:42:33] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but, but shorty, uh, or short cutty rather short cutie, uh, I guess it’s probably the way it would be announced, which is cute. Um, it’s like 8, um, uh, to get it from, from Gumroad. It’s not in the app store, um, but it’s a, it’s a Mac app and it’ll like basically include pre done actions where you can like, you know, um, get selected text or clear notifications or, you know, um, open, um, uh, uh, an app. [00:42:58] Christina: You know, um, [00:43:00] in something else where you can like pass across like a URL or, or create a new instance or whatever, you know, you can hide all windows, quit all apps. Like a lot of these things you’ve been able to, you can do in other utilities, but this is all just with shortcuts, which is pretty cool. So, but, but short cutie is not the one I’m talking about. [00:43:15] Christina: The one we’re gonna talk about is a supercharge, which is also a Mac app. It is also paid. I bought it. Um, Uh, I guess when it came out, but it is now available on set up and it’s a menu bar app that will basically just, uh, be able to do quick actions to just do a ton of different things. Some of them are similar to some of the things in short cutie, but a lot of them are, um, you know, like, you know, you can like show the markup tools by default, you know, in your screenshot preview, you know, you can, um, uh, you know, Copy, you know, the, the message link, you know, from, from within mail, you know, um, toggling, you know, night shift or, or true tone mode, toggling the low power mode, um, stuff like that. [00:43:55] Christina: And [00:43:55] Brett: close and minimize, close and minimize and hide and quit apps [00:44:00] directly from mission control? Which is, you know, for someone who’s just getting into spaces more, [00:44:05] Christina: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, this is a pretty great app. Um, and, uh, it came out, I think last fall. Um, but, uh, as of, uh, end of January, I think it’s now part of set up. So, um, uh, uh, supercharge. Um, it’s a, it’s, I, like I said, like I’ve been, um, uh, I bought it, uh, when it came out. Um, and, um, I’ve been like, yeah. [00:44:30] Christina: Really, uh, I’ve been really happy with it. I, but also I just think that Sindris work is really, really good. So, that is, uh, that is my craftitude. [00:44:38] Brett: that’s awesome. I, um, I linked this app, uh, in a web excursions a while back, uh, before set up, I think, uh, before it was on set up. I mean, not before set up itself, but, um, At the time when I looked at it. It, it was very impressive in its scope, but pretty much everything it did. I already had like my own [00:45:00] hacky ways of doing, um, and I didn’t see a need to replace all of them, but it looks to me like it has expanded since then, and I’m seeing a lot of features on here that I could actually make good use of. [00:45:13] Brett: So nice pick. Thanks for, thanks for bringing it back up for me. [00:45:17] Christina: Yeah, no problem. No problem. [00:45:19] Brett: Since you kind of did too, I’m going to kind of do too, too. Um, so I, quick mention, there’s this app called kind of him. Have you seen kind of him? [00:45:31] Christina: No, I haven’t. [00:45:33] Brett: It’s, it’s a little utility that can bring VIM keyboard shortcuts to any app on your computer. Um, so. [00:45:43] Brett: For me, I trick, you can trigger it multiple ways. I have it. So I hit J and K at the same time and it, my screen dims, except for the foreground window, and then all of your VIM movement keys work. And so like in finder, if I want to, if I’m at the bottom [00:46:00] of a list of files and I want to jump to the top, like there’s no keyboard shortcut and finders to do that, but if I hit JK and then hit GG. [00:46:10] Brett: Which is top of page for Vim, it jumps to the first selection in the list. And then I can use J and K to go up and down and then to exit Vim mode. I just hit I or A and, and in like a text editor, if like in text edit, for example, I can hit JK. Navigate around when I hit a, it will append or I will insert, um, just like it would in them, but in text edit and it’s very cool. [00:46:40] Brett: It’s like, I think two or three bucks a month to subscribe to it. Readwise and Productivity Tools [00:46:45] Brett: And I, and I love it, but my actual pit for today is read wise, um, which is a service that it’s 10 bucks a month, I think. And. Um, it’s basically [00:47:00] you load in like RSS feeds, you forward emails to it, [00:47:06] Christina: It’s a read it later app, but for everything, like, like, like it’s your, it’s like Instapaper and Pocket and RSS and like your [00:47:14] Brett: and EPUB reader and, [00:47:16] Christina: like, like, it’s like, it’s like, it’s everything. It’s really [00:47:19] Brett: and you can, while you’re browsing the web, you can have the ReadWise extension. So on any web page you’re looking at, you can turn on the extension and then use. Your cursor to highlight passages in the web page and then view that page and it’s highlights in read wise. Um, well, their app is called reader. [00:47:40] Brett: It’s the read wise reader, but that’s the read wise service. And then readers, the interface for the service and, um, 10 a month seems steep to me at first, cause I was also just getting into Devon think and was kind of trying to use it as my read it later app. Um, but read wise, the, [00:48:00] the reading tools and read wise are just so handy. [00:48:04] Brett: And I find that. Uh, highlighting passages helps me retain it. And then it has built in reviews for your, your highlights. So at the end of a day, it can send you like your top five or 10 highlights and you can review them and then you can even turn them into flashcards that’ll come up. At intermittent periods, um, to like, if there’s a piece of information that you really want to retain, you can turn it into a flashcard that’s either fill in the blank or Q and a, and I’ve just started using this feature and it’s really helping me like when I read something and I’m like. [00:48:40] Brett: It would be really good to remember that next time I’m in a debate on this topic, I’ll like turn it into a flashcard and like start building up actual knowledge for myself, which is hard as an ADHD person to retain all of that information. I know Christina, you’re fantastic at it. I am not. Um, so this is [00:49:00] really helping me [00:49:00] Christina: No, well, it helped. Well, look, the thing is I have to like work at it. Like it helps me to like, like I’ve been doing Duolingos for the last 114 days. And, uh, and I haven’t missed yet. I’ve been, I haven’t had to like, you know, use their, their, their thing where they’re, yeah, I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t had to use like a repair thing. [00:49:17] Christina: Um, but, um, I did have to like use, uh, gyms or whatever, because I got kicked out of the diamond league. Cause I didn’t like actually use it enough to get enough points one week. And I was like, I don’t want to lose my status. Um, but, but no, but like, but like, but trying to learn French has kind of taught me, like, Yeah, I’m really good at retaining information, but trying to go through your language, especially, it’s like one of those things I’m like, no, you need repetition, you need like to be reminded, and like, that’s really great, like when you can have that can be like, okay, this can become like, you know, Anki, like, like flashcards or whatever to like, get that kind of wrote kind of stuff. [00:49:52] Christina: Yeah. [00:49:53] Brett: And for anyone who goes down a similar path to mine, where they’re into Dev and Think, [00:50:00] but also love ReadWise, um, I do have a script, you can find it on my blog, that will import every day your ReadWise highlights, and it’ll download the Markdown version of the article you highlighted. It’ll highlight Your highlights in the markdown file in Dev and think, and append all of the links to your highlights, your notes, and your tags in the annotations on the file. [00:50:25] Brett: So I get the best of both worlds and I can search and, and collect all of my. Uh, important articles in Dev and think, but without having to think about it, I just use read wise. I highlight my text, I tag, I add notes, and then it just shows up in Dev and think for me. So that’s not my pick, but read wise is my pick. [00:50:47] Christina: Yeah, no, Readwise is awesome. I’ve been using it since it was like in beta, beta the first time. So I think I’m, I’m, I’m like on legacy pricing, which is not that much cheaper. I think it was like the equivalent of 8 a month instead of 10. Um, but I’m charged annually, so it is what it is. [00:51:00] But, um, I, I, I, I agree with you. [00:51:02] Christina: Like I, when I first heard about the idea, I think I, I think it was in Mac stories. I think Mac stories wrote about it, um, early on, uh, about reader. I think Readwise was out first, but they’d wrote about like the, the reader. Option or like the thing that was going to be created. I was like, okay, this actually sounds like everything I’ve wanted from like an all in one kind of reading service. [00:51:24] Christina: Because my problem has always been like, I, um, you know, I used like Instapaper for years. I might even still pay for it. I, God, I really need to use rocket money or whatever to go through all of my recurring subscriptions on stuff. But, um, I, you know, I would have to have like multiple. Tools to try to do everything like a pin board and I have you know Instapaper and I have my ebook thing and I have all this other stuff and I’m like, you know And you have RSS I’m like, can I just have it like Everywhere, right? [00:51:53] Christina: Like one, like one thing, which, yeah, [00:51:57] Brett: Yep. I have all my, all my RSS feeds are in [00:52:00] their, uh, news. Email newsletters that I, that I actually want to keep track of. I redirect, uh, I have Mailmate redirect them to my Readwise email account. I dump EPUBs in there that I want to easily mark up and, and memorize. Um, pretty much only like nonfiction stuff. [00:52:23] Brett: I’m not like reading. Fiction books in and read wise, but for like the book on Devon think, uh, from take control books. I put into read wise and use that to highlight. Cause I want to do a talk on Devon. Think it max suck this year. So like stuff that I wanted to like, make sure I remembered about Devon. [00:52:44] Brett: Think as I read it, I highlighted it and now they flashcards for me. So I’m memorizing Devon. Think via read wise. It’s fun. I like it. All right. Well, uh, it was good to see you. [00:53:00] It’s, I don’t remember how long it’s been, but [00:53:02] Christina: been like a month. [00:53:03] Brett: a month, a month. [00:53:04] Christina: it’s been like six weeks. Oh my god. It’s been six weeks because it was, yeah. Or, or, five weeks. Anyway, regardless, it’s been a while. Closing Remarks and Sponsor Shoutouts [00:53:13] Brett: uh, um, barring major catastrophe, we will be on for. Weeks in a row. Now we have sponsors rolling back in for this quarter. Um, and we will be financially obligated to keep the show going. Um, so thanks to all of our listeners for your support, go click on sponsors, buy stuff. It makes us look good. Um, [00:53:38] Christina: Uh, click around. Uh, yeah. Uh, please. No, [00:53:42] Brett: but seriously, incognito is awesome. Like [00:53:44] Christina: is awesome. I was gonna say, I, [00:53:46] Brett: from incognito, like 137 new services contacted. And [00:53:50] Christina: well no, I, I, I, I, I’ll disclose even though like Brett did like the ad read, like they did give me like a, a, a, I guess, you know, account to like try it out with. And I, and I’ve [00:54:00] usually pretty good at being able to find some of this stuff and like send out things to have things removed. Like I’d actually have mine pretty locked down. [00:54:07] Christina: Um, at least through the major, major data brokers. However, like this got found things that I definitely didn’t want out there. Like phone numbers, like my phone number is my main thing. Like emails, unfortunately, I can’t do anything about that. Right. Address. I don’t love, but like, it is what it is, but like my phone number, I really don’t want that. [00:54:23] Christina: Out there and, um, and yeah, I found a bunch of things and I was like, okay, this is really useful. And I, having gone through personally, like how much time to try to scrub things from systems before. Like, and the thing is you can get it from one, you know, at one point and then it might show up again, like a year later. [00:54:41] Christina: So it’s [00:54:42] Brett: well, and [00:54:43] Christina: to do it for you. [00:54:45] Brett: we’re not getting paid for this part, but I will say that since I started using it, my volume of spam phone calls has gone to zero. Like I get some stuff from like Amazon business, uh, trying to sell [00:55:00] me on like seller accounts and stuff that I just have to, you know, block, uh, because Amazon has my data and they’re not letting go of it. [00:55:09] Brett: But, um, but like random spam calls, I just, I don’t get it all anymore. And it’s very nice. All right. Well, good talking to you. [00:55:19] Christina: Good talking to you too, Brett. Um, hope we can continue feeling better and, uh, get some sleep. [00:55:23] Brett: Get some sleep.

In a hilariously overtired episode, the trio - Brett Terpshire, Christina Warren, and freshly 50 Jeff Severns Guntzel - shares personal updates and tech tidbits. Jeff reflects on turning 50 and throws an TV-themed party filled with nostalgia and sentimentality. Christina bids farewell to GitHub, navigating the emotions of her final day on MLK Day 2025. Brett, struggling with health issues, excitedly delves into the intricacies of DevonThink and shares his disdain for buses. Together, they discuss old tech software, film reviews, and geek out on imaginary Linux sponsorships. It's heartfelt, chaotic, and genuinely overtired.

Brett and Christina return from their hiatus with a chaotic blend of health updates, travel tales, and tech talk. Brett opens up about his struggles with Dysautonomia and the labyrinth of healthcare, while Christina shares her whirlwind travel experiences from Salt Lake City to Rome. They dive into the marvels of AI, revealing how even rabbis can now build apps with ChatGPT. Brett extols a scheduling app that ensures he never misses a meeting, despite his notorious forgetfulness. Plus, the nightmare of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich wreaking havoc on a brand-new MacBook keyboard. Expect tech-savvy insights, a bit of health drama, and a lot of catching up.

Brett's back from death's door with dizziness and newfound medical theories, while Jeff scores a major mental health milestone by conquering his driveway chaos. They dive deep into VPNs, Tor, and Signal for all you privacy freaks, and Jeff finally finds love in Obsidian without burning out. It's part health scare, part tech geek-out, with a side of weighted vests and shooting skeet in Wisconsin.

Jeff and Christina kick off the Overtired Podcast with a hearty dose of election angst, send their well wishes to Brett struggling with health issues, and dive deep into coping strategies for the shitshow that is US politics. They throw shade at the DNC, reminisce about the nightmare of 2016, and fantasize about burning it all down. In a lighter twist, we get the lowdown on a revolutionary terminal emulator, Mitchell Hashimoto's Ghostty. Oh, and Tim Walz playing Crazy Taxi? Priceless. All this while navigating the wild west of social media insanity. Buckle up!

Brett, Jeff, and the fabulous Jay Miller dive into hilarious and chaotic tales of surviving corporate reorgs, handling ADHD, and wrestling with DevRel magic. From API designing demands to repeated layoffs, they share hearty laughs and personal struggles. Jeff finds mental solace in his organized workshop, crafting metal art while Brett recounts school rebellions. The trio also discuss AI tools, secret SkunkWorks projects, and quirky app designs. Expect tech talk tangents, live coding passion, and a touch of corporate drama – all with a dose of irreverent humor! Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t . It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra, and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password.com/overtired. Highlights https://overtiredpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Highlight-Reel-of-Give-Yourself-a-Five.mp4 Chapters 00:00 Welcome and Introductions 00:32 Merlin Episodes and Podcasting Dreams 01:50 Mental Health Corner: Jay’s Work Challenges 14:40 Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Health Journey 20:55 Jeff’s Workshop and Mental Health 28:15 Sponsor Break: 1Password 32:13 Work and Developer Relations at Oracle 35:07 Crafting Personalized Outreach with AI 35:37 Effective Blogger Engagement Strategies 36:32 Building Genuine Connections in Tech 37:30 Innovative Projects and Their Impact 39:50 Challenges of Corporate Metrics 43:01 The Value of Unquantifiable Work in DevRel 45:13 Exploring Useful Apps and Tools 54:03 The Future of Link Management 01:03:39 Encouraging Open Source Development 01:04:17 Live Coding and Teaching Insights Show Links https://kjaymiller.com What I learned from a boring contribution Surviving the Whirlwind. A Ramble after (yet another) round of Layoffs Jeff’s Mastodon posts about his lathe Dinner in the shop! Polishing century-old handles! Extracted the spindle assembly! I’m going to be brave! Front and Center Zellij Zellij bananas roadmap LinkWarden HistoryHound Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Give Yourself a Five [00:00:00] Welcome and Introductions [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to Overtired. Yes, that’s two weeks in a row consecutively. Um, this is Brett Terpstra. I am here with Jeff Severns Guntzel. Christina is out, but in her stead, we have the fabulous Jay Miller. Uh, you can find him at kjaymiller. com. How’s it going, Jay? [00:00:19] Jeff: It’s good. It’s good. Glad to be back. [00:00:22] Jay: Hi, Jay. [00:00:24] Brett: So, [00:00:25] Jay: I feel like this is four in a row. [00:00:27] Brett: is it really? [00:00:28] Jay: I think so. [00:00:29] Jeff: There’s been a lot. I’ve been excited. I’ve been listening. [00:00:32] Merlin Episodes and Podcasting Dreams [00:00:32] Brett: Thanks to, thanks to Jeff and his fill in Merlin episodes, I [00:00:36] Jay: Yeah, you get who you can. [00:00:38] Jeff: The Merlin sodes have been, have been good. [00:00:42] Jay: That was a, that was a blast talking to Merlin. It was really, really lovely. [00:00:45] Brett: Merlin told us that he would come on anytime, uh, if we could stand him. Um, so yeah, we, there will be more Merlin episodes. Look [00:00:57] Jay: The funny thing about talking to Merlin [00:01:00] one on one is that I’ve been listening. I mean, probably like all of us, maybe listening to Merlin’s podcasts for like 12 years. Um, and there aren’t many other podcasts that I listen to regularly. I would say I listened to one of his podcasts every week. I don’t usually listen to all of them. [00:01:14] Jay: And I used to have this dream that I was on some podcast I loved or another, and I just really, really messed it up. And it was just, I’d wake up feeling like such a failure. And the first time Merlin got on, I was like, Oh, this is that dream where I’m like talking to someone that I’ve only really known through podcasts. [00:01:32] Jay: And it’s got to work. Anyway, it was really nice. It was delightful. [00:01:35] Brett: Someone, someone said, uh, I like it when you have Merlin on because unlike his other podcasts, he hasn’t gotten comfortable enough to just descend into grievances. [00:01:49] Jay: That’s funny. [00:01:50] Mental Health Corner: Jay’s Work Challenges [00:01:50] Brett: All right, should we, uh, should we kick it off with the Mental Health Corner, our longest running, um, uh, segment? [00:01:58] Jay: Yes, [00:01:59] Jeff: Yeah.[00:02:00] [00:02:00] Brett: Uh, Jay, would you like to go first? [00:02:02] Jeff: I always feel like when I lead it, it’s the worst. I’m always super long and I guess me muting things as, [00:02:11] Jay: the guest. [00:02:12] Jeff: okay, that’s fine. I’ll own it. So, yeah, work has been interesting, uh, as I put in a blog post recently, I have survived yet another layoff, um, that’s the, [00:02:26] Brett: missed that. [00:02:27] Jeff: yeah, that’s the second one at this company, and I’ve only been here since February, which is great, um, the third re org, which is, you know, company’s gonna company, I [00:02:39] Brett: In how long? [00:02:40] Jeff: since February. [00:02:41] Brett: Since February. Third reorg since February. That’s even worse than mine. [00:02:45] Jeff: our entire original department is gone. Our company has no more marketing department. [00:02:51] Brett: Yeah, that does sound like Oracle. [00:02:54] Jeff: they’re like, we just don’t need this anymore. Um, but what’s funny is I was, [00:03:00] I, I’m not a movie person, so I don’t have like a great reference other than like Suicide Squad. I, I kind of got called into this Suicide Squad of a team that was like, hey, You have a special set of skills and we’re going to do a thing and we’re not going to let half the company know what we’re doing except for we’re only going to give them snippets of what’s happening behind the scenes. [00:03:29] Jeff: Um, and you’re responsible for giving those snippets because that’s your superpower here. Um, so do you want to be loved by this team of like 10 people and hated by the other 180 people on in the company? because you’re just not doing the things that we normally do. [00:03:45] Jay: 10 people are. Yeah. [00:03:49] Jeff: very senior staff level engineers, architects, like this is, this is all good. [00:03:54] Jeff: And that’s why I feel like the, the analogy is breaking down a little bit, but I got, I got [00:04:00] asked to be on a special team at work. The team is doing some like not so top secret, secret stuff, but what’s interesting about it is my role on the team is part. API designer, part like project manager, part developer advocate. [00:04:24] Jeff: So there’s, there’s a lot going on, but it very much reemphasized some of the things that I’ve been working on in a recent blog post, um, or series of blog posts, which are like, what are the valuable skills that engineering. teams or development teams actually need that aren’t coding because I’ve seen a lot of code. [00:04:52] Jeff: I’ve seen a lot of production level code. They’re not hiring people for their coding skills. That’s obvious. Um, code is bad. [00:05:00] Um, and no matter how big or small the company is, the code just gets bad over time. Um, bad decisions are made for good reasons. Bad decisions are made for bad reasons. The code sucks, so there has to be something else. [00:05:13] Jeff: And I’m, I’m slowly learning just from people who have worked at companies like Google, who’ve been architects for Google, architects for Microsoft, Shopify, like some of these bigger companies that have seen a lot of success and are doing things differently. Just like picking their brain and really learning a lot, but also having them see The value in good production, like I have to do a weekly demo to the rest of the company of what we’ve been working on every single week. [00:05:47] Jeff: And often it’s like, Hey, here’s some infrastructure stuff that Jay’s never had to touch before. And then also here’s Jay giving the demo of how to use this. And the resounding response [00:06:00] is like, Jay, your demos are the thing that everyone looks forward to now on the call because all the other ones are like watching bread turn into toast out in the sun. [00:06:14] Jeff: It’s, it’s just, it’s grueling. So it’s, it’s great to, to be loved and to be like wanted by a team of people who are very, very experienced and often have to re explain things to me because I have no clue what they’re talking about, but then also. Because of this shakeup at work, there’s kind of been this rift in that our current team is under new management. [00:06:40] Jeff: That new management wants me to stick around because kind of the hope is if this team is successful, then it becomes a new department, and then the people who are there just kind of stay there. So old company wants me, or old team wants me around, new team wants me around. A third team that is like Hey, you probably should actually be over here anyway, because that’s what makes [00:07:00] like logical sense. [00:07:01] Jeff: We also want you around. And everyone is throwing out like, do you want money? Do you want management? Do you like what do you want? So it’s, you know, safe to say like, aside from feeling kind of overworked and a little stressed out, which is just I feel like a normal thing. I I’m feeling very much wanted and having, having a little bit of survivorship bias, having, you know, these conversations where people are like, you know, what can we do to keep you happy with, you know, the team that you’re on and with the projects that you’re on. [00:07:40] Jeff: And that’s been really, really blinding of the fact that I just lost. Another half of my existing team and some of the people I worked closest with due to these, this last layoff round. So it’s like, Hey, rose colored glasses, going to put those on [00:08:00] and ignore like the atomic bomb that just went off in our company that mostly impacted my areas. [00:08:08] Jeff: But also, Hey, this sunset’s looking really nice right now. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of where I’m at. [00:08:16] Brett: So when I first started at Oracle, they wanted me and, and they gave me a good salary and they gave me a bonus my first year and a raise. And then we went through multiple reorgs and I feel completely unwanted now. Um, I got no raise this year. I got no bonus. I got nothing. Um, and that feels like punishment. [00:08:40] Brett: Uh, you know, when, you know, inflation is going up and your, your salary isn’t going up, um, that’s basically a pay cut. I’m really jealous that you feel that you literally are that wanted. Um, I wish, I wish. [00:08:56] Jeff: I think the downside to that though is none of these like only one of them [00:09:00] was like, maybe it comes with a pay increase. And that’s just because to level out, again, you’ve got like, like staff level architects from Google coming in making that kind of money, we kind of have to balance things. But everyone else like, Everyone else is like, hey, we just laid off a bunch of people because we’ve got to save money. [00:09:20] Jeff: So I’m, I’m also kind of in the camp of like, I feel like as much as they want to promise me more money come time for like, hey, let’s do a review and let’s talk about compensation. That’s going to get left out somehow. [00:09:32] Brett: Yeah, yeah, and that sucks, um, all this saving money when your stock is doing fine shit. Yeah. [00:09:40] Jay: oh yeah, there’s this spectrum that’s starting to sort of emerge in my mind and I want you to help me fill it out. So there’s what you’re talking about, which is you survived the layoff. You have a blog post about this too, which I’ll put in the, um, in the show notes, or I put in there. Uh, you survived the layoff and you feel wanted, right? [00:09:58] Jay: On the other end is you’ve been [00:10:00] laid off and you feel totally unwanted. Another one is you’re Brett and you’re there, you’ve survived layoffs, but you also feel unwanted. What is the one between Brett and you, Jay? Like, is it just, I feel wanted and. But I may die any day? [00:10:15] Jeff: My team is designated for future layoffs. That’s, that’s like the space in between where things are great. Everybody’s gelling and there hasn’t been a layoff in six months. So, You’re, you’re like, hey, this is good while everybody braces for impact. I talked about this in that blog post of that like being a military veteran and being someone who’s been diagnosed with PTSD like I can, I can honestly say that dealing with layoffs at Elastic, followed by layoffs at Microsoft, followed by two rounds of layoffs at Ivan, like, and, and they don’t, they don’t want to call them layoffs, they want to call them restructuring, but like restructuring comes with like, if [00:11:00] more than three people got laid off at the same time from different departments and I feel like it could be justified as a layoff, um, you know, for the same reason, When those things happen, there’s no good way to do it. [00:11:14] Jeff: And that’s the problem is that like, in Microsoft’s case, hey, we’re gonna lay off 10, 000 people while also announcing that we’ve had record sales, you know, record revenue generated. [00:11:27] Brett: The, the in between is that, um, that 1950s, 60s, uh, mentality that no longer exists where you get a good job, you do your job, you, you do everything that’s asked of you, and every year, um. You get an incremental raise and a Christmas bonus and, um, and you’re not worried about layoffs because you’re doing your job. [00:11:53] Brett: You’re good at your job. And now, like, the reason they gave me for not getting a bonus was I only [00:12:00] scored, um, uh, Uh, there’s like five, it’s like a one to five rating in your review, and a three means adequately performs all duties. And when I started, they told me just always get a three and you’ll get what you need. [00:12:16] Brett: And like, if you put a five down for anything, then like management gets like uneasy that you’re looking for a promotion or whatever. And the reason they gave me for not [00:12:26] Jay: I don’t know about this guy. [00:12:28] Brett: The reason they gave me for not getting a bonus was I only had a three on my review and I like, it’s a self review too. [00:12:36] Brett: So I just gave myself threes and everything. Cause [00:12:38] Jay: And it’s a self review. That is capitalism, right? Like [00:12:42] Jeff: you’ve denied yourself a raise. [00:12:44] Jay: Yeah, [00:12:45] Brett: a, it’s a self review that your manager can argue with if he feels that you overranked yourself and rarely will they, uh, up your score for you. [00:12:54] Jeff: It’s weird in that like Microsoft was the same way except for basically we were told hey don’t [00:13:00] screw over like it was a peer review, so the ruling was you never screw over one of your [00:13:06] Brett: Sure. Why would [00:13:07] Jeff: put in the good stuff, you never put in any bad stuff, so there’s no growth whatsoever, there’s no like personal development, but then also at the same time, They’re like, hey, we know that you’re lying. [00:13:20] Jeff: So therefore we’re going to just throw out this. And it’s like, it’s not even lying. It’s just like, if, if I’m having to basically re interview for my job every six months. give you all the good stuff and turn all the bad stuff into more good stuff, then like I truly am not developing as a human being and our company has a bunch of robots and then that’s when I get bored and I bounce. [00:13:44] Brett: Well, it’s, it’s bullshit. Like you should, your manager should do your rating and they should be on your side. And, um, this whole, this whole system, you’re right, it does not inspire personal growth. Um, [00:14:00] I will say like not getting any compensation, uh, it feels like they thought that would inspire me to work harder, but it, it absolutely does not. [00:14:12] Jeff: Yeah, it will make me work harder on everything other than my job. [00:14:18] Brett: Yeah, exactly. It makes me work harder at looking for a new job. [00:14:22] Jay: Or it makes you dig into a passion project or something, right? Like, it’s just like, okay, fine. I’m going to go where I, I already know how to feel, uh, satisfied and valuable, but you’re just not the framework in which I could do that. [00:14:34] Brett: All right. So Jay, does that sum up your mental health corner? [00:14:38] Jeff: Yeah, no, that’s it for me. [00:14:40] Brett: All right. [00:14:40] Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Health Journey [00:14:40] Brett: Mine is actually not work related. I do actually want to talk about what’s happening at my job in brief later on. But the weird thing for me right now is I feel like I have Both ADHD and bipolar, like under control. Like I’ve got, I’ve got [00:15:00] focus. [00:15:00] Brett: I’ve got like, uh, when I’m sleeping anyway, like I’ve got, uh, just like steady mood, um, motivation and like, it’s weird. It’s weird to be like both bipolar stable and ADHD attentive at the same time. Um, I have had. Sleep issues ongoing, like this has been going on for months and I’ve talked about it, um, and I tried, I started having lightheadedness, uh, like persistent, not just when I stood up, just like constant lightheadedness that was on the verge of like euphoria, um, like it felt really good, but also made it unsafe to drive, so I figured I should do something about it. [00:15:48] Brett: Um, so we tried the, the only reason they could come up with was it must be caused by the gabapentin. So I tried to get off the gabapentin, which gabapentin [00:16:00] also acts as an anti anxiety medication. And I went cold turkey off it and had the worst day of anxiety I have ever had. I was absolutely certain I was going to lose my job. [00:16:11] Brett: I was absolutely certain that everybody hated me. It was a real rough day. Um, so, so I kind of went back on the gabapentin and tapered myself off and tried this drug called DayVigo, which is supposed to help with sleep, but as has been my experience with every other sleep medication, I got no sleep. Um, it did nothing. [00:16:36] Brett: So I’m currently back on the gabapentin. I am not anxious, and today I am not lightheaded, and I am not convinced that the gabapentin is a problem, which means I have to go in for like pulmonary and brain scans, um, to try to explain the lightheadedness if it comes back. Because, uh, yeah. So I’m, I’m, I’m filling out [00:17:00] forms to try functional medicine. [00:17:01] Brett: Are you guys familiar with those? [00:17:04] Jay: I don’t know. Explain. [00:17:05] Brett: It’s like a cross between western medicine and a more holistic, um, kind of, uh, what’s the word? When they give you a bunch of supplements and recommend electromagnetic therapy. [00:17:22] Jeff: I was meds, crush them up, dip like acupuncture needles in them and then like, Do that or [00:17:31] Brett: so, yeah, I, I don’t know yet, um, I wasn’t impressed with the, like, consultation phone call I had, but I’ve got, like, GI issues, I’ve got bipolar and ADHD, and I’ve got, um, sleep issues, and I have specialists for each one of these, but none of the specialists agree with the other specialists, and in my mind, all this shit has to be connected. [00:17:55] Brett: In some way, there has to be some underlying problem and functional medicine seems to [00:18:00] be the only option I have without going to like fucking acupuncture and stuff. Um, with no, no offense to acupuncturists. I just don’t think it’s going to solve like [00:18:11] Jeff: I love acupuncture. I’m not using it for those [00:18:15] Brett: yeah, exactly, exactly, but like, um, what, wellness, the wellness industry, I guess, is like, I don’t have a lot of faith in, um, I think it’s a, uh, mostly a rip off, but functional medicine seems like my only hope for finding, um, connections? [00:18:35] Brett: And, like, you start with, like, urine samples, saliva sample, fecal sample, and it takes, like, five weeks to analyze all this, and then they come back with, like, a recommendation, I guess, so, I’m gonna give it a shot, we’ll see. Um, last thing in my mental health corner is Uh, health insurance. I, uh, one of my therapists, multiple [00:19:00] therapists, um, does not submit to insurance, so I have to make claims myself using her super bills. [00:19:08] Brett: And, um, I, I submitted like 20 bills for the year and I got back 20 separate 25 checks for, to cover, they’re supposed to cover 90 percent of like a 280 bill, which they reduced to 20, 250. And then instead of giving me 90 percent of that, they paid me 10 percent of that, which means now I have to like resubmit all these claims. [00:19:38] Brett: And when you’re resubmitting, they require faxes. So I have to fax in Receipts, which obviously I do online because there’s no fax machines in the world anymore. [00:19:50] Jay: my god, no, there’s not. [00:19:52] Brett: and so, like, [00:19:53] Jay: There’s only super spammy fax services online. [00:19:57] Brett: And then for, yeah, [00:20:00] I found one that’s free, or like for 2. 90 I could send a 20 page fax. Um, [00:20:06] Jay: was it? [00:20:07] Brett: no, I can’t remember, it’s called like FreeFax. com or something. Um, but they also, my last 10 I submitted, they sent back 10 separate envelopes, each one containing a single piece of paper that said, Hey, for how to network claims, contact our partner. [00:20:25] Brett: Uh, this, and they’ll help you like get your bill reduced or whatever. And I’m like, that’s, you have fully reimbursed me for this provider in the past and something is wrong now. So I spend an hour on the phone with customer service and it [00:20:43] Jay: The upside [00:20:44] Brett: and more faxes. [00:20:46] Jay: the upside is that somewhere there’s an envelope licker who has dodged all the layoffs. [00:20:53] Brett: right. That’s all, that’s all I got. [00:20:55] Jeff’s Workshop and Mental Health [00:20:55] Brett: Jeff, how are you doing? [00:20:57] Jay: doing pretty good. Um, yeah, I’m [00:21:00] doing good. Uh, I know I’ve, I think I’ve talked about my lathe and my mental health check in, or maybe just my workshop. Um, but I, a new sort of like, Cause I mean, the background is that a really severe manic episode, unlike anything I’d ever had or have had since in October of 21 led me to fill my garage and my driveway with things from, uh, from auctions of closing steel factories. [00:21:23] Jay: It’s quite a thing. Um, and it took me probably, I mean, it took me until about four months ago to get out from under it, which I obviously wasn’t doing that. Constantly, but when I could, when I could stomach going into my garage and kind of facing sort of the shame and frustration of this self of mine that, that existed for one month, that is of course still me, but like was a little screwed up by brain chemistry and the wrong medication. [00:21:47] Jay: Um, it took me a long time to get out from under it. Finally, I have a workshop that is just like, it’s exactly what it should be. It’s a lovely place. Everything’s organized. Any tool I want is within reach. All my drawers are labeled. And, um, and I have this lathe. [00:22:00] I, I have this, it is amazing. I have this lathe, this hundred year old lathe I’ve been unmasked on about it a lot. [00:22:05] Jay: And, um, and I have a machining teacher, a mentor who I learned how to use metal lathes and, and bridgeport mills to machine metal. Five, six, seven years ago. Um, he’s a lovely person. He’s unlike anybody I would have ever imagined a meeting that would teach and mentor and machining. And I finally felt confident having him over, um, because my shop was just a nice place to be. [00:22:28] Jay: And I, and I wanted his guidance and I wanted him to help me problem solve and all of this stuff. And so it was the first time I had invited somebody into my workshop. Cause I’ve normally just kind of like. People would be over and they’d be like, let’s go look at your workshop. And I have to be like, no, not now for years. [00:22:41] Jay: And it was just horrible. Um, cause I knew that it was just like, it was like, why is he ashamed of his workshop? And, uh, so I had my, my, uh, teacher over. I served Nepalese, uh, food at the work table, um, on a big old piece of cardboard. where he drew how he had recently [00:23:00] created, uh, built an elevator, like a freight elevator using the mag drill I gave him that I got at an auction. [00:23:07] Jay: A mag drill is like when you see people breaking into safes in the movies with a giant magnet. That’s what a mag drill is. Uh, he drew a whole, like he drew a whole picture of another thing. And then we just like, we spent like three hours Um, investigating how a thing was put together a hundred years ago so that we could take it apart. [00:23:24] Jay: And, and the, there is something in that, that is such a calming, um, experience for me to be staring slowly at a thing and going, how do you want to come apart? Like, I see, I see maybe there’s some threads under there. I see there’s like a Woodruff key. I’m just going to use jargon. And, and, and just, and doing that with someone else, um, and then ultimately succeeding in, and then really appreciating what you find underneath, or, or when you realize how it is that they, they devised this, this, you know, this thing and having just [00:24:00] like really like unmitigated joy, like goofy childish joy. [00:24:03] Jay: Um, he’s a great match for that. And, and so it was awesome. And he’s also happens to be right now building a seven foot beer can that, uh, for a brewery that actually tips and pours beer and then tips back. So he also is just like a lot of fun. Um, so anyway, [00:24:19] Brett: an Axeman trip for sure. [00:24:21] Jay: exactly. Um, so that was like, that was a huge milestone for me and so directly related to mental health. [00:24:27] Jay: Um, and, and so it’s just amazing. [00:24:31] Brett: am totally like that with code, especially with writing regular expressions. Like I just find the world around me calms down, especially when I’m like looking through someone else’s really good code to figure out how they did it. Um, and, and you, there’s just all these, like, delights along the way and you learn, like, all new, all new functions and, and API calls and, yeah, it’s, it’s really nice. [00:24:56] Brett: I had a metals teacher in high school [00:25:00] who was, he told me, um, I have to give you an A. I think you’re dumber than a box of rocks. Quote. Dumber than a box of rocks, but I have to give you an A because you, you did everything. Um, I kind of was, I, I, I, I screwed off a lot in his class. Um, [00:25:19] Jay: cuz it’s shop. [00:25:20] Brett: Yeah, it’s shop. [00:25:21] Brett: And like, we were, we were like chasing each other around with like metal files and pouring molten lead down [00:25:27] Jay: it’s shop. [00:25:29] Brett: I got the back of my tennis shoe burned off by like molten metal. [00:25:34] Jay: It’s really a science class about evolution. [00:25:37] Jeff: So wait, wait, wait a minute. Hold on. So your, your shop teacher said that you, you, you gave yourself a three and was still able to promote you into the next grade. [00:25:48] Brett: And then in, in college, I took a metals class and again, it, in the review at the end, he told me I was an asshole, but he had to give [00:26:00] me an A and I’m like, [00:26:01] Jeff: this time, I guess. [00:26:03] Brett: yeah, [00:26:03] Jay: only ever got told I [00:26:04] Brett: this time I was a smartass. I made some cool, I made, I made a, so they brought in a nude model and had her pose and we had to draw one part of her body and then sculpt it in metal. [00:26:19] Brett: And I chose [00:26:20] Jay: the knuckle. [00:26:21] Brett: I chose her hand, which she was leaning against a table, and no one can see this because this is an audio podcast, but she had like her wrist [00:26:30] Jay: bit like Brett has rigor mortis. [00:26:32] Brett: yeah, she had her wrist bent, and it was resting on the table, so I sculpted from the elbow down, and I flipped it upside down to make a little table out of her hand, and did the whole thing in like quarter inch steel, Um, and welding that again was a very calming process. [00:26:51] Brett: It took hours and I just zoned in. I was on a lot of heroin, but I just, I zoned in and it was awesome. [00:26:59] Jay: So [00:27:00] here’s my question for your shop teacher. Is he listening? Is he, is he listening to the podcast? Um, I assume it was a he. Uh, what, when you have come up in the world of welders and, and machinists, somehow to act like being an asshole. It’s, it’s like, outside the norm, or even not required, or like, an obstacle, like, this is why it took me so long to get into this kind of stuff, is I didn’t wanna, you know, I didn’t wanna be in a community of assholes. [00:27:29] Brett: Well, so I feel like what happens for me is, Um, especially in high school shop class, I’m, I’m, I’m not being elitist, I’m just, I think I was smarter than most of the class, which meant [00:27:45] Jay: You’re still smarter [00:27:46] Brett: was, I was more likely to make, uh, snide remarks, um, more likely to point out contradictions while the teacher was talking. [00:27:57] Brett: Um, and like, just [00:28:00] that kind of trap that, you know, What do they call them, uh, gifted and talented kids fall into? You have so much potential. If only you would apply yourself. Yeah. [00:28:09] Jay: You really lack empathy, yep. [00:28:12] Brett: Um, yeah, yeah. But thanks, Jeff. [00:28:15] Sponsor Break: 1Password [00:28:15] Brett: Um, let’s take a quick sponsor break. We have one of our favorite sponsors this week, 1Password, once again, talking about part of their product that none of us actually use. [00:28:29] Brett: So when they tell us to make this [00:28:30] Jay: Wait, what a rousing start to the ad read. Can that just be our policy from now on when we’re reading an ad for something? Now we’re going to read you something today we’re really grateful to hear. We have never touched this. [00:28:41] Brett: it’s, yeah, but like I said, like one password is just, it’s awesome. [00:28:46] Jay: I’m implementing 1Password across my organization right now. We love it for everything we know [00:28:51] Brett: Yes. Yes. So that’s our, that’s our rousing, um, promotion of the sponsor. But I’m going to talk about, [00:29:00] uh, extended access management. Uh, so imagine your company’s security like the quad of a college campus. There are nice brick paths between the buildings. Those are the company owned devices, IT approved apps, and managed employee identities. [00:29:15] Brett: And then there are the paths that people actually use, the shortcuts worn through the grass that are actual straightest line from point A to B. There are unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps, and non employee identities such as contractors. Most security tools only work on those happy brick paths, but a lot of security problems take place on the shortcuts. [00:29:38] Brett: 1Password Extended Access Management is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, apps, and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional [00:30:00] IAM and MDM can’t. [00:30:01] Brett: It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entrout and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password. com slash overtired. That’s 1password with the number one dot com slash overtired. Thanks 1password. We’ll continue to talk about, you know, using like end user stuff because we all love it for that. [00:30:32] Jeff: I mean, I’ve been a mobile device manager before and I’ve had to do IAM things and yeah, this was, this was like, job right out of the military. Like, [00:30:42] Brett: then you can actually speak to this. I should have let you do the ad [00:30:46] Jeff: I’ve never used the 1Password bit, but I’ve definitely used some of the other tools that they talk about. And yes, I will say that there was always the like, Hey, why is this app banned? And it’s like, because it’s not on [00:31:00] the one, like, the one of, 20 apps that we allow you to use. And then we see them pull out another phone and go, but here I have this work contract here on my personal phone and I need to get it off of my personal phone and this is the only app that I have. [00:31:14] Jeff: And it’s like, congratulations, you’ve snitched on yourself. Good job. Um, give me that. Um, now we need to wipe both phones. But [00:31:24] Brett: so I, I am the, I am the person on the, uh, the, uh, the path that, that is not the brick road. Um, like, I got so fed up with using my work. Authorized laptop because of the limited number of apps I could use and the way that they forced me to work. So I set up a whole little like VPN tunnel on a mini in my basement to make my My Mac studio appear like it was a work authorized app, but without any of the control. [00:31:59] Jay: give myself a [00:32:00] three. [00:32:02] Jeff: Brett spends a whole lot of time every day in this one app. That’s [00:32:09] Brett: Yeah. Um, but it, you know, we do what we have to. [00:32:13] Work and Developer Relations at Oracle [00:32:13] Brett: Um, so I, real quick, I want to say that. Um, so my job is, I, I work in developer relations, but for the last three years, I have basically written content for developers, how to articles, and, um, demos for different technologies, and right now they have me producing two minute videos for two minute videos. [00:32:38] Brett: So, to promote AI solutions at Oracle, and like Jay was talking about earlier, I’m doing demos on technologies I’ve never used, so I have to work with, you know, the creators of the project to figure out what the hell they’re talking about, and then try to like compress all the impressive bits of it into two minutes. [00:32:57] Brett: And that’s okay, I enjoy the [00:33:00] production, I like that part of my job, [00:33:01] Jeff: part. [00:33:02] Brett: but it doesn’t feel like it. Uh, Relationships, um, Developer Relations, so I came up with this scheme. If you will, to build a, an aggregator that finds us everybody on the web, like indie bloggers that have good search engine ranking that are writing about us or about similar technologies on our competitors and doing things like writing how tos and writing overviews and Um, and, and aggregating all of them and then putting together a team that actually develops, like, reaches out and develops relationships with these developers to, um, hopefully get them to write about our technologies. [00:33:50] Brett: Um, maybe do side by side how tos, like, here’s how you do it on S3, here’s how you do it on Oracle Object Storage. And like, actually [00:34:00] get that content, because right now, all the content we write goes into the Oracle ecosystem. So if you’re not following Oracle already, if you’re just Googling, you’re not really finding these specific solutions. [00:34:13] Brett: So, This, I, I made a mind map for this proposal and I sent it, they asked for a doc, a Word file or a PowerPoint, and I said, no, I’m going to send you a mind map. And every time I do that, people are like, oh my God, this is so cool. I love seeing it like this. I get, you know, at least three [00:34:33] Jay: love mind maps! [00:34:35] Brett: Even if they don’t like making them, they like reading them. [00:34:38] Brett: Like it’s a great way to present information. [00:34:41] Jeff: Oracle has their own AI. I mean, this is an amazing tool right, at [00:34:46] Brett: they have, they have the tools you need to build an LLM, um, they don’t have like their own language model or anything, um, but they do a lot of, [00:34:58] Jeff: I would take a template [00:35:00] of what they want and take your mind map and just feed it in and go, here. like [00:35:07] Crafting Personalized Outreach with AI [00:35:07] Brett: what I want to do is all these, for every AI solution we promote, we have to write a one pager. I want to be able to feed this one pager into a tool that generates the search to find people talking about specifically. The technology in that one pager so I can reach out and then I want ai to summarize what that person is already written so that I can approach them with at least a cursory knowledge of what they’ve already done. [00:35:35] Brett: Because that’s how you contact a blogger. [00:35:37] Effective Blogger Engagement Strategies [00:35:37] Brett: You say hey, I read this article you wrote. I really like point A and point B that you made. I wonder if you’ve heard of This thing that I produce that you might also be interested in. Like, those are the emails, when I get them, those are the ones I pay attention to. [00:35:53] Brett: Um, the ones that are not just like, Hello, Brett Terpstra, we noticed you’re interested in this broad technology. [00:36:00] Would you like to try our product? [00:36:02] Jeff: not just that but like also the Like, if Brett comes to me and says, hey, your last blog post was super dope, like, that means something. If someone I’ve never met before says, hey, good blog post, how would you like to write for us now? Like, no, that’s [00:36:22] Brett: Or, or even worse, how would you like a sponsored article from us on your blog? [00:36:27] Jeff: yeah, like, [00:36:28] Brett: cause you showed up in our [00:36:29] Jay: You’re offering that to me?! [00:36:32] Building Genuine Connections in Tech [00:36:32] Jeff: like, I tell people the, the best recruiting tactic that worked on me was Microsoft, in which my boss was. Sponsored me on GitHub for two years. Like, replied to like, tweets that I was doing, replied to some talks that I had given. Like, had a genuine interest in, wow, Jay’s content’s actually pretty cool. [00:36:56] Jeff: Like, there’s, there’s an investment in this. So that when they reached out and they [00:37:00] said, hey, My team is hiring and I think you would be a good candidate for this. It wasn’t just like, hello stranger I’ve never met before. How would you like a brand new opportunity? It was like, oh no, I actually have some rapport with this person. [00:37:15] Jeff: Like, I know that they are heavily invested in not just their team’s success, but my personal success in the fact that they’ve been paying me for two years already. Like, [00:37:28] Brett: Um, [00:37:28] Jeff: and a wrong way to do this. [00:37:30] Innovative Projects and Their Impact [00:37:30] Brett: my most successful project at Oracle, the one that has been the most beneficial to the company is one I did because someone else at Oracle had been following me for years and they knew what I could do, um, and they asked me to come. work for their team and write tools that would convert their entire Confluence wiki into a GitHub. [00:37:53] Brett: Well, in this case, a Oracle has some GitHub clone, uh, but basically into Markdown [00:38:00] files that they could turn into a repository of information. And I built this and their writing team was spending two hours per page to convert these and then clean them up. And I made it into you could do an entire hundred pages in 30 seconds. [00:38:22] Brett: And like I took care of all the requests and saved them, according to their estimate, thousands of hours. However, I did not include this in my self review because technically I was doing it in my off hours and it wasn’t authorized by my manager. So I figured maybe I shouldn’t mention that I had put, you know, hours into this project and saved the company thousands of man hours, man and woman hours. [00:38:49] Brett: and non binary. Um, but, uh, I, I got a letter of commendation from them. I, I requested like, if I saved you this much time, [00:39:00] write me a glowing letter of commendation. And I sent that to my manager. This is like two days after I found out I wasn’t getting a bonus. And I’m like, fuck you here. This is, this is what I’ve done for the company. [00:39:12] Jeff: And also, I will go work for that team [00:39:15] Brett: I asked them, can I just switch to your team? They’re like, we have zero headcount. We have to lay someone off this month anyway. [00:39:21] Jeff: oh no, the, the interesting part of that though is we just had this conversation yesterday as I had to give this demo to our team, and they were like, wait a minute, y’all have done all this work, where’s the JIRA tickets for this? Where’s the GitHub repo? And we’re like, they’re all private. And the team was like, what, how dare we not be able to see what this super secret squirrel team is doing. [00:39:47] Jeff: All the time, and put in our comments, [00:39:50] Challenges of Corporate Metrics [00:39:50] Brett: I hate JIRA so much that I find ways around actually using JIRA. So when managers go to look at [00:40:00] JIRA ticket count as a metric of success, I look horrible. I have like two tickets completed for the whole year. [00:40:07] Jeff: well, and the thing that we came, we came to finally was like, we’re doing all this work, it’s all listed as private, but here’s the thing. These five super important things that make our company the company that it is, and how it operates, and how it ultimately makes money, were all done as SkunkWorks projects. [00:40:28] Jeff: And people’s off time just because they were tired of the way that it was working and they made it better. And then it got adopted into, Hey, this is really great. We should use this for everything now. And to me, it’s like, wait a minute. What we’ve learned is that yes, we can be open and transparent about things. [00:40:47] Jeff: Doesn’t mean that everything needs to be open source made available to the public on day one. Sometimes, especially when you’re working in a company, it’s better to be like, let me get my idea out there and [00:41:00] done. And then when it’s at a place where I can present it to the company, Then I’ll present it, then we’ll take all the criticisms, then we’ll take all the feedback and apply it as needed, but if you’re coming out the gate on day one with just like, Well, you chose Fish as your terminal editor, I don’t know why you did that, you should be using T Shell, because Reasons. [00:41:21] Jeff: And you’re just like, nevermind, now I want to quit and go find a new job. [00:41:26] Brett: Yeah, [00:41:28] Jeff: But also, you shouldn’t have given yourself a three on that, Brett. That’s, that’s totally five work. [00:41:33] Brett: Well, dude, the, the, the ratings are like, how is your leadership? I’m not a manager, I don’t, [00:41:40] Jeff: leader. [00:41:41] Brett: I, I don’t want to be a leader. I want to, I want to do shit behind the scenes and make shit better for everybody. Um, and, [00:41:48] Jeff: being a leader. [00:41:49] Jay: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:41:52] Jeff: That’s the definition of a leader, Brett. [00:41:54] Brett: Like, and I edited maybe 20, 20 long articles and I did a great [00:42:00] job of editing, but my name doesn’t go on those articles. Like I’m invisible at this company. [00:42:06] Jeff: I have another blog post that I am actually working on in that whole series that is exactly what you’re saying. Like we, talking with a bunch of architects has taught me one thing. Commit count, line, like code line count, all of those things are very, very horrible metrics. And what are better metrics are, how many things did you help push across the finish line? [00:42:30] Jeff: Not, not like, oh, I’m the one that wrote the code, but like, I was the person that said, Hey, you should run this through a linter, or, hey, you have a typo there, or this is off messaging, or whatever, or even, Oh, you’re stuck on this here. Here’s an example of some code that I wrote in my spare time that explains how to solve that problem, and like, all of those things are not easily quantifiable. [00:42:58] Jeff: And that’s the [00:43:00] problem with companies. [00:43:01] The Value of Unquantifiable Work in DevRel [00:43:01] Jeff: And again, we’re both in DevRel. DevRel has this horrible, like, challenge in that everything that we do that brings value is not quantifiable. Everything that we do that [00:43:13] Brett: all DevRel is unquantifiable. [00:43:16] Jeff: Like every, and like both, you know, people who give talks at DevRelCon will argue this, but everything, all the challenges of like, we need to figure out how to turn blog posts into quantifiable metrics and conference talks into quantifiable metrics. [00:43:31] Jeff: I was asked to keynote at a conference next year that hasn’t been announced yet, so I won’t, I won’t do that, but I’ll be keynoting at some conference next year. And as I had to justify travel, eventually I was like, okay, look, I’m an influencer in this community. I can go there and, like, regardless, I’m going to go there because they asked me to keynote. [00:43:53] Jeff: I’ve blown them off a couple of years in a row because of other work things getting in the way. I’m going this year. The [00:44:00] options are I can take vacation, I can go on my own because they’re going to pay me to go, and I can be super excited to talk about my company and all the cool things that we’re doing, or, [00:44:12] Brett: Right. [00:44:13] Jeff: or, you can pay for me to go. [00:44:16] Jeff: And then I’ll be really, really excited and I’ll want to give demos and I’ll try to go to meetups and stuff and I’ll like extend my time there and have a really good time that benefits the company or you’ll continue to piss me off and I’ll just go and then I’ll let people know that I’m looking for work in which then I will have five offers. [00:44:34] Jeff: So it’s your choice. Like [00:44:36] Brett: but when you’re making this argument, you can’t say it’s going to result in this many new customers because that’s not trackable. Like you, new customers don’t get. There’s no, there’s no, uh, signup thing that says, how did you hear about us? And they put down Jay Miller and you [00:44:56] Jeff: that one time, that one place. [00:44:58] Brett: All right. [00:44:59] Brett: We should get, we should [00:45:00] get to our, uh, gratitude. Before we run out of time here, Jeff, you’ve been kind of rail railroaded out of this conversation. You’ve been quiet. Would you like to go first? [00:45:09] Jay: Oh, I don’t feel railroaded. I’m a listener. Yeah, sure. [00:45:13] Exploring Useful Apps and Tools [00:45:13] Jay: My app is, so you know, there are all these apps that we all have that have been there for so long and they are just working and then maybe you forget that your computer behaves this way because a certain person made a certain app hazel, right? [00:45:28] Jeff: a new update. [00:45:28] Jay: So, oh [00:45:30] Brett: quick, quick note [00:45:31] Jay: yeah, please. [00:45:32] Brett: I wish Hazel, when it came up with the buy a new version dialogue, it should tell you, you currently have this many Hazel rules running on this many [00:45:43] Jay: Yeah, yeah, [00:45:44] Brett: Because I forget how much Hazel is doing for me in the back, sorry Jeff, go ahead. [00:45:49] Jay: No, it’s a great, it’s a great, it’s the ultimate example, right? Like, um, so the app is front and center, John Siracusa’s app, um, from 2020 and front and center [00:46:00] just restores a classic Mac OS feature. I think Siracusa used, uh, the classic OS from like age nine to 26 before OS 10 kicked in. And what it does is so simple. [00:46:12] Jay: When I click on a window of an application, All of the windows that are on my desktop open, uh, appear. I use this mostly for Finder. You can actually just an exclude list. So if you don’t want it to happen to other apps, that’s fine. If you shift click on an app, it won’t bring them all forward, but it is something that for me, I found I wanted all the time. [00:46:33] Jay: I especially want it with Finder windows because I spray those things like indiscriminately onto my four monitors or whatever. Um, and so it’s just a lovely, elegant app. It’s constantly updated. You wouldn’t think. There’s a lot of attention that needs to be paid, but like, if you look at, I mean, it’s not surprising given it’s Siracusa, but like, if you look at the change log, there’s just these little incremental meaningful changes that happen over time, as recently as two weeks ago, even though it’s a 2020 [00:47:00] app, app that does a very simple thing. [00:47:02] Jay: So highly recommend. [00:47:03] Brett: Can you, can you reverse it so that it only brings forward all windows if you hold down [00:47:09] Jay: Yep, you can have a classic mode or a modern mode. If you have it on modern mode, then shift click gives the classic functionality. If you have it on classic mode, shift click gets, gets the modern. [00:47:19] Brett: I could see that being useful. In general, I’ve gotten really used to the current macOS behavior, and I often only want the window I click on to come forward. But, in the cases where I, the Finder is a good example, like you said, um, to bring forward all windows, [00:47:35] Jeff: I’ve been playing with the tiling manager and the reason why it is not my Grapptitude is because my brain hasn’t wrapped around it yet. [00:47:44] Brett: right? [00:47:44] Jeff: I’m still like, why, why is this one window so [00:47:47] Jay: Wait, like a, a specific timing manager or? [00:47:50] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, called Aerospace. Um, more, I, I’ve been on this quest to make the terminal my friend again. Um, [00:48:00] and it’s, it’s weird because this isn’t a terminal focused application, but it’s one that a lot of. [00:48:07] Jeff: Terminal First content creators have all kind of endorsed. So I was like, ah, we’ll, we’ll try it out. And, and it is definitely a brain thing. But like, Brett, when you said, can it reverse it? I thought you were like, can I reverse front and center? So like, back and off to the corner. Like, like, like, if I click shift, if I shift click it, that it like moves into the smallest window possible. [00:48:33] Jeff: Like, [00:48:36] Jay: Awesome. [00:48:37] Brett: well, speaking of terminal, Jay, what you got? I [00:48:39] Jay: their [00:48:40] Jeff: mine is because I’ve been trying to go back to the terminal lifestyle for no, no particular reason other than I want to challenge my brain to do something different. And I’ve always been a big fan of terminal things, but I am using a Um, multiplexer called Zellige, or Zellige, I’m not sure [00:49:00] how the J is pronounced at the end of that, um, [00:49:04] Brett: Y. I think it’s Zelia. Okay. [00:49:07] Jeff: Zillia, there we go, um, it’s ultimately an alternative to something like a TMUX, um, It is pretty much feature has like feature parity with tmux. [00:49:19] Jeff: The big difference that I see with it is that a lot of, a lot of tmux commands either have to be aliased out of like the leader or you didn’t have to like play configuration hell with them all. This, this, uh, starts at that spot. It, like, while it supports the TMUX, like, leader and then going into another thing, you can also just do the natural thing. [00:49:47] Jeff: So, panes, tabs, windows, sessions, all those are relatively quickly accessed with just control and then a logical letter. Other than session, which is O, and I don’t know why [00:50:00] session is O, but whatever. Well, [00:50:02] Brett: I term, I term Command Shift O is Switch Session. Maybe they were just [00:50:06] Jeff: Okay, so maybe it’s [00:50:07] Brett: But I don’t know. I also don’t know why it’s like that in I terms. So, [00:50:11] Jeff: The thing that I like most about Zelig that kind of made stuff start to click for me was this idea of a floating window for excess things. So where I’ll In TMUX, if you try to go to like list your sessions, it pretty much takes over the entire screen, and then you have to go do stuff and find things and move things around, and then like everything goes away. [00:50:36] Jeff: Um, with Zealage, it’s like this little tiny window in the center of your terminal window. that just like pops up really quick. Oh, do what I got to do, click it, it goes away, and everybody’s happy. And I can still see the context in which where I am. The nice thing about that is you can also have floating panes. [00:50:53] Jeff: So, hey, I have a static site generator that’s built in Python called Render Engine. I use it [00:51:00] to maintain my own personal website. And it has, uh, It’s a file watcher and like auto reload functionality. So now I just always have a local version of my website always running and it’s just running in this little hidden floating window. [00:51:16] Jeff: So I can just like write a blog post, save the blog post, go to a terminal or go to an internet browser and like preview that article and if I make any changes to it, you know, give it like two seconds and then I can see those changes live as they’re happening. Which is usually it’s like. As I’m writing, I have Marked open, so I’m looking at it, but then I haven’t gotten to the point where I have all of my CSS, you know, custom piped into Marked yet, so then it’s like, what does this look like? [00:51:48] Jeff: Okay, cool, go over here and do it. But it also works when I’m trying to, like, edit the CSS layout, or change terminal stuff, and I don’t have to think about if it’s running or not, because it’s just always running, and if something, [00:52:00] Get squirrely with it. I’m just like, boom. Uh, was it control PW then to pop up that little window, write, you know, terminal stuff, relo, relaunch the server and then hit control PW again, and then it just pop pops off back into the background and like, I’m happy. [00:52:19] Jeff: Um, and this, this has been great ’cause for the first time now I actually have like SSH windows and stuff that I have running. that I’m connected to that are just like, oh, off in the background. Oh, I need to do that thing really quick. Pop it up and go. But my brain couldn’t get Tmux. Zillage seems to be working for me. [00:52:34] Jeff: So hooray. [00:52:35] Brett: my brain has finally gotten TMUX. Um, I’m definitely going to check this out, but like I use anytime I SSH into a machine, I immediately open TMUX. Usually I have it as part of like the profile. Uh, this is an SSH session, open TMUX and I, I have run into plenty of issues. Um, [00:52:58] Jeff: suggestion I would [00:53:00] make if you’re going to try it, switch to the compact UI. or the compact interface, because the default interface is kind of chunky. So you’re losing real estate if you’re not doing the compact one. [00:53:14] Brett: cool. All right. I will, uh, check. Yeah. Jeff. [00:53:18] Jay: roadmap visualization is bananas, and I’m not sure if that’s just something that already exists as a way you do roadmap visualizations, or [00:53:27] Brett: never seen this [00:53:28] Jay: it is bananas. I put a link in the show notes. I was [00:53:32] Brett: like a, it’s like a pie chart, mind map, concept [00:53:35] Jay: It’s a little hard to take in, but it’s like, A for effort. [00:53:38] Jeff: It looks like that thing that Brett was talking about where you take your bipolar medication and then crush it up and dip it into it. [00:53:48] Brett: I don’t know what the purple versus the tan means. [00:53:52] Jay: No, it’s a little bit of a mindfuck, but I also, it’s just like, okay, alright, you mean it though. [00:53:58] Jeff: Hey, if it works for them, [00:54:00] right? [00:54:00] Brett: Yeah. [00:54:01] Jay: Awesome. [00:54:02] Brett: Um, all right. [00:54:03] The Future of Link Management [00:54:03] Brett: Mine is, uh, Link Warden. Um, I’ve been seeking out slowly a pinboard, uh, replacement. Uh, pinboard hasn’t seen an update in years. [00:54:16] Jay: you’re going to do it. [00:54:19] Brett: yeah, well, so I was thinking about doing it and I pitched the idea on Mastodon and a few people replied with, wait, somebody’s already done this. [00:54:27] Jay: I said yes. Fuck whoever’s done it. It’s not good. [00:54:32] Brett: Like all [00:54:33] Jeff: Brett more work, but I would also sign up for whatever Brett’s version of this is. [00:54:37] Brett: I, all I really want is like the exact functionality of Pinboard, but with a way better interface on the web, but like a replicated API, which is already a replication of the delicious API. Um, and Yeah, like to just bring that forward, add maybe a few new functions, [00:55:00] uh, but like Pinboard is a very overall, very simple database app. [00:55:06] Brett: Um, but one of the alternatives that was presented to me is called LinkWarden and it is a beautiful open source version of a link manager that also handles. Um, archiving and PDF duplication of websites. You can also easily submit a link to the Wayback Machine and it has a decent API. It’s poorly documented. [00:55:36] Brett: Um, so I have a couple of GitHub issues in right now. Um, but it was easy to export all of my pinboard links, 8, 000 of them, um, and import them into LinkWarden. I’m currently having a little bit of issue with. importing tags, uh, which they replied to my issue as, well, that’s odd. Um, [00:56:00] but I haven’t gotten any resolution on that yet. [00:56:04] Brett: And using it without tags is pointless to me. Um, so I’m hoping they resolve that. The people I’ve talked to that are already using it have had no problem with tags. So this is something unique to me, but it’s beautiful. It works well on iOS. You can add shortcuts to Safari, it has plugins for Chrome and Firefox, and, um, it looks great on mobile, and it, it offers like screenshots of every link, you can view, uh, you can sort your links in any way you want to, you can organize by tags, or you can create folders, which, um, Um, I, I was using link bundles on Pinboard, um, which make a little more sense to me, but I think I could replicate that functionality in LinkWarden. [00:56:53] Brett: Um, but yeah, if you’re looking for a Pinboard replacement because Pinboard hasn’t seen an update and the [00:57:00] creator of Pinboard has been going slowly mad on social media and I don’t have a lot of faith in the future of Pinboard. Um, BigFan, LittleFaith, and LookingAround. So LinkWarden is my top pick. [00:57:16] Brett: LinkDing is another one, but LinkWarden looks better. [00:57:19] Jeff: I, I’m really tempted to, so this is like the, the combination of tools enabling this. So I could see self hosting this on a Raspberry Pi [00:57:31] Brett: Ha ha. [00:57:31] Jeff: activated by like, um, I keep wanting to say Tailwind, but Tailscale. [00:57:37] Brett: Yeah, yeah. [00:57:37] Jeff: And then I, then like, then I’m happy because all of my links are saved for me and I don’t They’re all mine, I’m not sharing them with the world, I really have no desire to share what I watch or what I look at on the internet with the world outside of like what I do from like a micro blogging standpoint. [00:57:54] Brett: that’s the thing. Is I, like, my web excursions are all driven by Pinboard. I just [00:58:00] save. Uh, links to Pinboard and they turn into blog posts for me, um, so there are some that I want public. [00:58:08] Jeff: Is there not a world where this can just be stored in plain text? Because I’m, I’m, I’m really trying to figure out the like, all right, look, I understand that AI is the devil, or the the angel that is here to either save or damn us. And I’m like, I do look at a bunch of links. And I often am just like, I don’t know what I know anymore. [00:58:30] Jeff: And I don’t know where I went. So I’m just gonna look for it again to save myself the energy. And If I had something that I was like, give me everything that I need to look at regarding this. [00:58:41] Brett: you seen HistoryHound? [00:58:43] Jeff: History. It sounds familiar, [00:58:46] Brett: I think it, I think it was C Command, but, um, HistoryHound will track your web history and you can then search everywhere you’ve been by just typing any words that appeared on the page [00:59:00] and it will find people. Links you’ve already visited. It is, it’s pretty cool. I don’t personally use it. [00:59:05] Brett: I, I, uh, like a more curated approach to saving my web history. [00:59:11] Jeff: yeah, I think, I think that was that. I, I have used HistoryHound in the past and I, I think I just, I think I didn’t use it, which is the problem. Uh, like I used it, but I didn’t use it. And that’s, that’s where I like the idea of a pinboard because with pinboard, it was like, I just clicked a button. And then when I went to need it, it was like there. [00:59:37] Jeff: And I, I think that the future of that is kind of like. I have some collection of these things and now I, I just say, hey, you know, local LLM, here’s all of this content, quick search it, and then you tell me what I should be [00:59:57] Brett: That’s kind of a brilliant idea.[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Jay: on now, Brett, let’s really quick talk about how you’re going to build this app, because Cause here, the problem with, I know we don’t, [01:00:07] Jeff: two enablers, [01:00:07] Jay: know we don’t normally, we don’t normally argue in Grapptitude about apps, but here, here is the primary problem. Use the word twice in describing this app. You said beautiful. [01:00:16] Jay: It can’t be beautiful. I hate it when it’s beautiful because I feel like I’m in a browser on a webpage and what I love about Pinboard, even more than I liked Delicious, is how plain and simple it is. And it’s not like Craigslist, like it’s not that bad, right? But it’s like. The only, my only complaint about it is when I have private links, cause I like to have my links generally private. [01:00:36] Jay: They’re grayed out in a way that I find aesthetically very unpleasing, but here’s the thing. I know that you would make beautiful without making it beautiful. Uh, if that makes any sense and [01:00:47] Jeff: I would just take raw, like, give me raw JSON. Like, I don’t care. Like, I want it to [01:00:51] Jay: yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And, and, and I would, I would love the incremental changes you would come up with over the [01:01:00] years to this service, because I think they would all be thoughtful and lovely. [01:01:04] Brett: I really like, I really like the AI idea where [01:01:08] Jay: Oh, I do shit like [01:01:09] Brett: stores the text of everything you bookmark and then you can just ask like a, a small, a, a small language model. Um, you can just ask it, hey, tell me more about this thing that I bookmarked 20 tabs. Remind me, like, where I was in this research. [01:01:29] Jeff: this is where, like, the, the combination and, like, if, Brett, if, if no one’s going to give you a five, let me give you a five here. Like, you have [01:01:40] Jay: Are you giving him a five to the future? [01:01:42] Jeff: you have so many projects that can be combined in this, with like, doing, I see like, yeah, I see like doing in SearchLink, just working together with some easy bookmarking system. [01:01:56] Brett: with gather and maybe curly cute. [01:02:00] Like someone, [01:02:00] Jay: Jay. Well [01:02:01] Brett: me, someone sent me, [01:02:03] Jay: Way to speak his language. I like, I feel like Jay just definitely like manipulated you. I mean, I think Jay meant it, but I also think Jay knew it was like. [01:02:11] Jeff: percent of the code already exists. You’ve [01:02:14] Brett: someone, someone sent me a keyboard maestro macro today that combines, um, search link and gather. So with keyboard maestro, you can just type in a couple of keywords and get back plain text version of the result, which, yeah, I think that’s kind of brilliant. [01:02:32] Jay: that’s amazing. All right, well, Brett, I look forward to checking in next week on how this is going, because you have an opportunity here to save the world, and that doesn’t happen much, and the world needs saving. [01:02:42] Brett: All right, all right, [01:02:44] Jay: All right, great to talk to you, Jay. [01:02:46] Jeff: Absolutely. Um, but I guess my one shout out here is everyone be, be kind to yourself and each other. I think we’ve got like, what, a week or [01:03:00] a week and a half before half the world loses or half of America loses their mind. Um, [01:03:06] Brett: well, yeah, yeah, [01:03:07] Jeff: oh, I’m sorry, they’ve already, [01:03:08] Jay: technically 48%. [01:03:10] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:11] Jay: The undecided voters are going to be [01:03:13] Jeff: Yeah, but ultimately, like, I, I have my opinions, and I will say, we have survived the last eight years with and without whoever your favorite person running is. Let’s not kill each other because of a decision. I think we’re going to survive another four years and then maybe we’ll survive another four years after that. [01:03:39] Encouraging Open Source Development [01:03:39] Jeff: Um, but also like, hey, if you’re wanting to get into open source development, you know, reach out to me. I have opinions. I’m Last time I was here, I think we talked about Black Python devs a little bit. Brett, we have almost 900 people in that Discord now. Like, it’s, it’s so wild. We’ve, we’ve, you know, [01:04:00] been able to sponsor events all over the world. [01:04:02] Brett: so cool, [01:04:03] Jeff: fantastic. But if it’s taught me anything, it’s taught me that Again, people don’t hire people because they write good code, they hire them because they’re actually helpful. And give yourself more fives. Come on, let’s, [01:04:16] Jay: Jay, hold on. [01:04:17] Live Coding and Teaching Insights [01:04:17] Jay: I know, I know that we’re technically wrapping up, but I wonder if you could talk about your sort of live coding and live sort of teaching, because I’ve really loved skimming through those and it’s, and you’re just, you’re wonderful at [01:04:28] Jeff: have to still be doing it, um, [01:04:30] Jay: talk about, I mean, you’ve done it, right? Like I. [01:04:33] Jeff: I’ve been doing some live streams with some friends who are trying to get into programming, and I’m a firm believer that like, if you read a book and you just try to follow the book, it’s not going to teach you anything other than how to do what the book is doing. [01:04:45] Jeff: Try to build some stuff. Go out there, build stuff. You’re smarter than you think you are. Sometimes it’s helpful to have a person there that has maybe done this before and walked you through it. But I’ve been working with a few friends and, [01:05:00] um, helping them to just build stuff that they want to build. And it, a lot of it is more of like, here, I’ll show you where you can find this information and I’ll show you what it looks like in this language. [01:05:13] Jeff: But ultimately have fun with it and just. Just, just do stuff, and don’t be afraid not to do those things, and if you want to see more of that stuff, go to my YouTube channel, um, youtube. com slash K. J. Miller, K. J. A. Y. [01:05:27] Jay: you’re a great, you’re a great teacher. You’re great. I think you’re just, you’re great at that. I don’t think it’s cool that you tell people at the end, I’m giving you an A, even though you’re an asshole, cause you did the work. But otherwise I think you’re a fantastic teacher. No, truly it is. The spirit of it is wonderful and it’s almost good ASMR. [01:05:43] Jay: Uh, I really recommend it. [01:05:44] Jeff: I appreciate that. I, I am, I’m not so great to look at, but just like, you know, put me off in the background and just do, do some other stuff. You’ll be [01:05:52] Jay: awesome. Well, we’ve loved looking at you. [01:05:56] Brett: for sure, all right, you guys get some sleep. [01:05:59] Jay: Oh, [01:05:59] Jeff: some [01:06:00] sleep.

This is the second part of a two-part conversation with Merlin Mann. Join Jeff Severns Gunzel and Merlin Mann on a whimsical journey through AI antics, creative teamwork, and nostalgic rabbit holes. Get insights on ChatGPT’s quirks, AI integration in daily tasks, and practical wisdom from the Wisdom Project. Expect pop culture musings, heartfelt chats on personal growth, and humorous tales—from DIY hacks. Dive in for tech talk, life lessons, and a pinch of philosophical reflection. Sponsor Blogging is making a comeback and Pika is a great way to get a blog online fast. Visit pika.page/overtired now to give yourself a chance to experience the personal internet as it was meant to be. Enter coupon code OVERTIRED20 to get 20% off your first year of Pika Pro. Show Links Part 1 of this conversation: S-Tier Face (Merlin Mann Part 1) The Spotify playlist for episode 418 The GitHub repo for the episode, containing a chatGPT-generated episode glossary and other fun stuff The work of Merlin Mann: Merlin’s website Merlin’s Wisdom Project (Referred to repeatedly as “The Document”) Do by Friday (Podcast with Alex Cox. Hi Alex!) Roderick on the Line (Podcast with John Roderick) Reconcilable Differences (Podcast with John Siracusa) Odds + Ends: Overtired #402: Emotional Sweep with Merlin Mann is Part 0 of this conversation Developmental Evaluation Kai Scissors Grand Royal (magazine) The XY Problem Apps: MacWhisper Descript TableFlip Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Beauty of the Lonely Boys (Merlin Mann Part 2) [00:00:00] Jeff: Hey everybody. This is Jeff Severns Gunzel. This is the Over Tired podcast. This is the second part of a two part conversation with Merlin Mann. Welcome back Merlin. [00:00:11] Merlin: Thank you for having me, Jeff [00:00:12] Jeff: so the Overtired, anybody who listens has noticed there are large gaps between episodes. [00:00:17] Jeff: And in those off weeks, I was thinking I wanted to pick up on a conversation I’d had with Merlin we had started to have when you were on the on the podcast earlier this year about ChatGPT and it was to me a very interesting conversation as opposed to a very stale conversation and I think you and I are sort of kindred spirits and how we use this thing and so originally the idea was hey you guys mind if I just do like a one on one with Merlin about this so we did it. We did a first try at that. And it ended up being such a delightful, um, uh, opportunity to talk about a million things that weren’t ChatGPT that here we [00:00:53] Merlin: Jeff, we got to talk about music and I was very, I was so, well, first of all, I was pleased because I don’t know where anybody sees anything [00:01:00] anymore, but, um, and you know, I was really hoping people would listen to it, but I didn’t want to be like too like meh, go listen to me talk, ramble for a long time. [00:01:08] Merlin: But the people who did discover it and listen to it, uh, a few of them have contacted me and you to say that they enjoyed it. And I just wanted to say to our friends, uh, who especially enjoyed the music, thank you for enjoying that and for saying so. The music, the music talk, because we talked a fair amount about music. [00:01:23] Jeff: Yeah, it was lovely to hear people kind of being excited about that. It was [00:01:27] Merlin: This is my version of World War II, with all respect. Like, I don’t have anybody to talk to about what it’s like, you know, to be in the trenches. Well, you know, the trenches of 1994 [00:01:37] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. That’s all you got. 1994. [00:01:40] Merlin: didn’t watch my friends die face down in the mud so that you could say shit about polvo. [00:01:45] Jeff: There was a great, there’s a great Minneapolis band called More Ram. And this was in the 90s. And it was the singer of this band Hammerhead is a great band on Amphetamine Reptile local band here. But he had a song called She’s My Vietnam.[00:02:00] [00:02:01] Merlin: Um, Trump told Howard Stern one time that venereal disease was his Vietnam. [00:02:05] Jeff: Oh, shucks. Yeah, no. Yeah. [00:02:08] Merlin: guess the Bonespurs didn’t bother him enough for but [00:02:11] Jeff: Oh, oh, [00:02:13] Merlin: Hey everybody, you’re listening to Overtired. It’s an alternate week episode where Jeff talks to Merlin Mann, which is a thing we’re gonna do from now on. [00:02:18] Jeff: sounds great. Sounds great. Um, [00:02:20] Merlin: neck of the woods? Good afternoon. Hello. Woo! [00:02:24] A Collaborator, Not a Crutch [00:02:24] Jeff: Um, I will tell you, I have, I have kind of an idea for how to get into this conversation so that we’re, we’re not just talking about ChatGPT, but I really, really want Um, and so, you know, I think it’s really important to have that conversation because I think that the, kind of the overarching themes of like curiosity of, of like, do we love this because, because of how we are? [00:02:44] Jeff: Is it, what’s the difference between collaborating with this thing and just leaning into it or leaning on it? Jesus, I didn’t mean to go all Cheryl, you know, Sarah on you. [00:02:51] Merlin: Oh, I know what you mean. These are these are great. These are great. Are these things just out of curiosity? You’re Um, wonderfully dogged about wanting to discuss this, which is great for me, but [00:03:00] these are things that, it sounds like these are things that you’re, you’re thinking about a lot. Is that true? [00:03:03] Jeff: I think about it all the time, in part because, um, you know, I, so I’m, in my, in my work, I’m, I’m part of a member owned research and evaluation cooperative, and there are seven of us, and I do work a lot differently than, and everyone would agree, than everybody else that does this work, um, in our, in our organization. [00:03:23] Jeff: And part of it is that a lot of what I do is, is building and is, is kind of creative in nature. So it’s the kind of stuff where it’s like, when you’re planning it, it’s the hardest shit to project plan, because it’s kind of like, I was going to build a deck this summer, I didn’t. But when I was going to build it, somebody said, you know how to build a deck? [00:03:41] Jeff: And I said, I will when I’m done. [00:03:44] Merlin: Right. Can I, can I ask, can I ask an early, early question just for my, um, so you guys, your group, your team of people works together. If you can say within, you know, privacy reasons, like what, um, what is the deliverable or what is the [00:04:00] product that people come to you to get? What is the thing that you, Produced for your clients. [00:04:05] Jeff: Yeah. Okay. So we do something that’s called developmental evaluation. And the idea is like, rather than really dull, stupid, uh, done by Rand and other defense contractors, uh, program evaluation, um, we do this kind of evaluation where it’s like, you’re an organization, you’re often a small organization, but we’ve worked with some really large ones. [00:04:25] Jeff: You’re trying to do a thing. And instead of So instead of being evaluators that are off at a distance, sort of looking at what you’re doing and then feeding back some report at the very end of the, of the [00:04:33] Merlin: Like the classic Arthur, whatever it used to be, Arthur Anderson, DeLay, Touche, those kinds of, McKinsey. [00:04:38] Jeff: Yeah. So we are like, we are kind of a critical friend working alongside these people, but we’re really focused on the stuff that they think they are, are doing well, or that the stuff that they have promised a funder they will do. [00:04:52] Jeff: And we try to work between them and the funder. I’ll get to the deliverable in a second. [00:04:56] Merlin: No, no, this is fast, because my wife works with, um, does a lot of [00:05:00] stuff with, uh, grants, where she has to like, you know, there’s all kinds of, um, Uh, not World Health Organization, what’s the big one that gives grants? I’m sorry I’m spacing out, but she has to like, yeah, there’s a lot of that putting stuff together where there’ll be like some kind of a mandate that’s stated or implied and you’ve got to show progress on these kinds of things and then there’s metrics and [00:05:19] Jeff: Yes. [00:05:20] Merlin: evaluations of the, of the scholars, [00:05:22] Jeff: this stuff, right? And so like, what we’re always trying to do is if we can get between the funder and the organization and say to the funder and the organization, all right, you’ve promised these things, like, this is what you’ve told them you’re going to do to release the money. [00:05:35] Jeff: But in reality, there are going to be moments where you’re like, fuck, why did we tell them we were going to do this? Because now that we’re in it, what really is working is this thing over here. We’re there to kind of like [00:05:45] Merlin: where you commit, commit too early to [00:05:47] Jeff: Yeah, you commit too early in part because you’re just trying to get that money, right? [00:05:51] Jeff: Like, and, and so we’re there to kind of help between the funder and them to go to the funder and be like, hey, just so you know, we’ve interviewed like all these people that are kind of like the people these folks are trying [00:06:00] to like, help or the systems they’re trying to impact. We’re actually seeing that while they thought they were they were heading here, they’re heading over here. [00:06:06] Jeff: And we actually think that’s like something you should really be supportive of. [00:06:09] Merlin: And maybe you couldn’t even be in contact with those people until that first part happened. It’s like, it takes the doing of that thing to discover that what they need is food vouchers. Not, uh, tote bags or whatever. [00:06:20] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And honestly, like, if I’m being really, really frank, like, for me, the what, what I like to do in supporting people who are doing the work is to like, be a firewall from the people who like, let’s face it, most funders, most people giving grant money, they’re only at the table, because they have money. [00:06:37] Jeff: They are at the table, because they have money. And you are the one doing all the work to Uh, suffering through all of this stuff, experiencing the pain of failure or of having kind of like aimed wrong, um, [00:06:49] Merlin: some of it also could be in various ways managing expectations with different stakeholders. [00:06:53] Jeff: Yes. Now, on the most, like, if we’re just looking at my work, and so I should say [00:07:00] deliverables are not like there’s a final deliverable. It’s like all along the way we’re doing, we’re like facilitating meaning making sessions with the, whether it’s with the funder or with the organization to kind of be like, this is what we’re learning as we observe your work and talk to the people that are, you know, your work is meant to help. [00:07:14] Jeff: And, and, but let’s, but we’re not experts. So let’s like make some meaning together, figure out kind of like how to do this, the, The way that like, [00:07:22] Merlin: Wow. For the, for the right kind of groups, that must be great. Like I have this cascade I think about in my life a lot, which is, you know, when I tend to think about new information or things in my life, and this is admittedly very oversimplified, but I tend to think about this cascade or this array of like, When new information comes into my life, like, how will this, how can this help me to think differently? [00:07:43] Merlin: How can this help me to decide differently? How can this help me to do differently? And then, of course, like you’re implying here, on this meta level, and then is my ladder against the right wall? Like, how do, what are the checks that are in place for all those things? And, I’ve found that kind of stuff very challenging with, in this case, as you [00:08:00] said, the middle people between these organizations, and it’s sometimes tough to be the person who breaks the news about. [00:08:07] Merlin: I’m going to speak a little bit in douche speech because it might be useful to our listeners. What if you just, how do you, how will you discover? that you’re not aligned on something you just assumed everybody was aligned on. [00:08:19] Jeff: Yes. [00:08:20] Merlin: And boy, it’s tough to be the one, especially if there’s representatives from both sides, like North and South Korea on either side of the blue line, where you’ve got to like break it to both of them that, you know, the bad news is that neither of you have your eye on the right ball right now. [00:08:32] Jeff: Yeah. [00:08:33] Merlin: And that, that’s, that’s, that’s gotta be tough. So it’s more like you’re integrated into the process of what they’re doing. It’s not like you just give them some brick of a report and come back five years later. [00:08:41] Jeff: Right. Exactly. And, and there’s a, there is sort of a accepted premise at the start, which is not always something that the client remembers, that we are, we are focused with them on the emergent. And so we aren’t ever going to just stay in the gray zone, but we are going to definitely recognize that things emerge and those things should have a chance [00:09:00] to guide the work you’re doing. [00:09:01] Merlin: God willing. [00:09:02] Jeff: Yeah, God willing. So and [00:09:04] Merlin: not so obvious when you say it, but in [00:09:06] Jeff: I know, I know. [00:09:07] Merlin: it’s, people are so resistant to that for all, all understandable reasons. [00:09:11] Jeff: Yeah, so resistant. And then like, so if I’m being super concrete, oh my god, Merlin. Is my computer about to go again? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on. I’m back. Jesus. [00:09:22] Merlin: Hey everybody, just so you know, Jeff won’t say it because he’s a gentleman, but earlier on, uh, we’d recorded a bit, and then Jeff said, Computer. I think the technical term is it shot the bed. And so we started over. So [00:09:33] Jeff: it. Yeah, [00:09:34] Merlin: you didn’t miss much [00:09:35] Jeff: That’s right. Um, okay, so here’s like, I’ll just give you the most concrete thing, [00:09:39] Merlin: because it could crash at any time. We should wrap this up. [00:09:41] Jeff’s Jobby Job [00:09:41] Jeff: This is, yeah, exactly. This is a little outside of what I just described. So, one of my projects right now is there’s an amazing organization here that is called, it’s called Foster Advocates, and it is in Minnesota, and they are made up of mostly ex Fosters, and they have done amazing work at getting legislation passed, all this stuff. [00:09:59] Jeff: They went [00:10:00] around to all 87 counties in Minnesota and the tribal nations and held sessions where they talked and recorded conversations with fosters about like what rights they expect they should have, what rights they know they have and, and where they wonder what the hell rights do we have at all? [00:10:16] Jeff: And they, they hired us and I’m sitting with 85 hours of audio and I go through with qualitative analysis [00:10:23] Merlin: Okay. [00:10:25] Jeff: for patterns. I look for the things that are the nuances that might be missing. We do the meaning making [00:10:30] Merlin: Is it some, some of that, I’m guessing some of that is, um, probably Sort of concretely quantifiable and others are not like I just read this recent report about how Richard Stallman’s not a very good guy And they use this entire process of like this is the number of times that he said this particular objectionable thing Like you were like, but it’s also you also there’s right you’ve got to quantify Nobody nobody likes the tote bags or like 90 percent of people but like but That’s complicated because it also depends, what questions did you ask? [00:10:59] Merlin: Did [00:11:00] you always ask in the same way? And then there’s the fuzzier, like, as young people would say, the vibe kind of thing, like, that you probably got to report on too, which is like, this part of the company, everybody’s happy that this thing works, they don’t even notice it runs so regular, but then there’s these other things. [00:11:13] Merlin: There’s this kind of deep, there’s a shared disc, inchoate disquiet about the future of leadership here that we only discovered after we’d done this for a month. [00:11:23] Jeff: Totally. And then inside of the issues, like the, the organization, which is like preparing this kind of bill of rights package for the state of Minnesota, the organization would be like, okay, so we know that one, one, one theme is like, when you age out of foster care, your credit, how are you going to have credit? [00:11:37] Jeff: Because everything you need to do to succeed, you need to get an apartment, maybe you want, you know, whatever you want to do. And so we already know that Credit is an issue, but like, what comes up in the conversations is how many people’s like, parents, their biological parents kept using their name and social security number throughout the years that that child was in foster care. [00:11:54] Jeff: So their credit is shot because of that. So [00:11:56] Merlin: Oh dear. Oh dear. [00:11:57] Jeff: that like, [00:11:58] Merlin: They treated it like a burner phone. [00:11:59] Jeff: [00:12:00] up. Yeah, and it can kind of rise up into this. So you can add that nuance to the issues. Anyway, that’s, that’s one version [00:12:06] Merlin: And so, and so, I think it sounded like you were about to talk about how this works with your work, in ways others don’t do it? [00:12:13] Jeff: Well, yeah, so I mean, I would just, I guess that the theme for me, and this is if we’re getting back to ChatGPT, is that like, I use it for a lot of things, and most people in my field just assume that it’s dangerous, that you would be leaning on it [00:12:28] Merlin: Dangerous and unreliable. [00:12:30] Jeff: unreliable, when in reality, like anything, it has everything to do with what, how you approach it, right? [00:12:36] Jeff: But I will say, it also has a lot to do with your inherent sense of curiosity. And that is something that I think you’ve brought up. I remember listening, there was a reconciled Global Differences some time ago when John kind of interrogated you on your understanding of, of ChatGPT and AI. That was a delightful episode. [00:12:54] Merlin: like, like so many of those conversations, it’s, it’s the implication that I’m not even allowed to ride on a bus unless I [00:13:00] understand diesel engines. [00:13:01] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. [00:13:03] Merlin: Why don’t, why don’t you, why I would, I would simply learn everything about everything. [00:13:07] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:13:09] Merlin: but no, no, really, really seriously, though, all I really want is like a chunk of code that will let me use CSS to hide this author on this one page. [00:13:16] Merlin: And so, so John, John, I, John, of course, if you ask John, whom I love. He would never even give you a straight answer. But what I could gather from that would be, well, just simply start at the beginning and learn everything [00:13:29] Jeff: Right, right, right. [00:13:31] Merlin: Because if I know about it, and this is the thing, John’s a type, and he doesn’t want to admit this, he doesn’t know this, I’ve met John’s type before, and again, I want to stipulate that I love him. [00:13:38] Merlin: He is a type where he is not aware a certain cataract that he has. This is true for almost all of this, but you notice it with John because he’s so lucid. John only talks about the things that he wants to talk about. And John only gets excited about the things he wants to get excited about. And he has this tick that even a lot of, or especially a lot of nerds have, which is my [00:14:00] deep and complete knowledge about something is what it is. [00:14:04] Merlin: And your falling short of that is a problem. And the, but conversely, or inconversely, if that’s a word, your deep interest, I remember I heard a, I heard a friend of mine who I really respect a lot, white guy from Oakland, Podcast host who, um, who really loves hip hop, especially like Bay Area hip hop. He knows everything about all of those things, but if you start talking about comic books, he goes into like a mode. [00:14:32] Jeff: Hmm. [00:14:33] Merlin: he like, he goes like, oh yeah, you and your funny stories, or whatever, and it’s like, well, I don’t expect you to love comic books, but I do expect you to have the presence of mind and the class to realize that everybody’s different about that stuff. And it’s a bummer that you’re gonna miss the opportunity to learn about something. [00:14:51] Merlin: Why does everybody else like this thing that I hate? Well, that’s an opportunity you’ve now lost, because you’ve been an asshole. But also, be careful because, like, [00:15:00] you are very close to becoming, uh, all I have is a hammer guy. [00:15:03] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:15:04] Merlin: And so, like, if you are in curious about those things, or you wanna change it to the conversations, like you studied for the wrong blue book essay, and now you you wanna say, well, yeah, but I do know a lot about I didn’t read The Ambassadors, but I know everything about Moby Dick. [00:15:17] Merlin: Can I take a different test? Well, that’s lame. Like, that’s, so it’s not a Siracusa thing, but you, it’s very related to this problem. I’m probably cutting you off, but like, that’s the problem here is, I don’t, I mean, yes, it would be nice to know how everything works, it would be nice to know everything. It is peculiar to me how under the microscope, even the most anodyne benign use of this stuff is, because it, it, it’s sort of like saying, well, like, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m looking at weird, you know. [00:15:49] Merlin: Uh, porn from Thailand, but like, it’s for my work, and you’re like, ooh, you shouldn’t even look at that at all. It’s like, well no, like, there isn’t, I’m sorry I’m going on, but [00:16:00] like, and I don’t mean to get emotional about it, but it is a little frustrating sometimes when people who do all kinds of insane shit every fucking day with all sorts of tools, including computers, things that are unreliable, things that are stupid, but those are all normalized and they’re used to that. [00:16:14] Merlin: They’re used to, we’re used to going to West Portal near our house, and the cellular is just not available for this one, two block area. I don’t get mad every time, like I’m used to that. Do you ever get frustrated with Google results? Sure, but you keep using Google. Well, then, can, is there any analogy to be found there? [00:16:32] Merlin: Is there any analogy to be found, and I’m going to go check on this even if somebody else told me it’s right? Or is it possible there are some things where it really doesn’t matter that much whether it’s right, and you go into it knowing that? [00:16:44] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:16:45] Merlin: That is a very frustrating prospect to people who think they know a lot about things. [00:16:49] Jeff: There’s also the, the sort of thing about going, you know, to the very root, learning everything from, from sort of the bottom up, um, is, is a huge trap [00:17:00] for me because it’s a [00:17:00] Merlin: It’s also deeply privileged. It’s a hugely privileged thing, and people don’t realize how privileged [00:17:04] Jeff: Yeah, sure. Yeah. And, and for me, it’s a temptation that can become an obsession that will never see itself through. And so I have that temptation and have to stop myself off. When John, when John Siracusa talks about how to learn Unix, I [00:17:21] Merlin: do! That’s the other thing is he won’t tell you! I’ll say to John, well, how do you pronounce your name? And he refuses to do it. He says, I did it in episode 35. Okay. Why are we talking about this? Or, or, but no, it’s not just him, but that is, like, a pretty common thing. It’s, it’s almost like there’s a library of code, and we’ve already covered that, so, like, why would we program around that? [00:17:40] Merlin: Tch! [00:17:41] Jeff: right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, so as much as I would love to learn Unix in that way, in the end of the day, what I really started needing to do was just figure out which command did this thing. And, and it’s super cool for me to go thumb through the what is the Unix [00:17:56] Merlin: CD, CD, LS, PWD, like, [00:17:59] Jeff: Yeah, [00:17:59] Merlin: [00:18:00] I don’t get started. [00:18:01] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. Um, okay. So I, here’s, that was all kind of a riff on, on curiosity. And the reason I, I even started using that word was like, one of the reasons I actually don’t try to talk about ChatGPT with too many people is because what I find right away, and this may be unfair, but, and I may be too quick to judge this, what I find right away is there is not, there is not the base curiosity needed. [00:18:25] Jeff: Um, So that we can actually have an interesting conversation. We’re just going to be talking. We’re just going to be rehashing the shit that I can, I can listen to on, on NPR. I can, you know, like whatever, like whatever the most sort of base, [00:18:36] Merlin: What it, and like, and just, I mean, there is sort of a little bit of a step zero to this, which is like, it certainly doesn’t seem very cool. Like, it, it, it isn’t like, I don’t know, like, Pickleball. I, I don’t know that much about Pickleball, but everybody talks about Pickleball. People, people really like it, and like, eventually they, people might see the attraction of that. [00:18:55] Merlin: Or whatever. It’s just that the way, whether or not you like, I, people like me kind of don’t [00:19:00] always love the way this, these questions are posed, but there’s that step zero of like, ugh. You know, I mean, again, it’s like asking people, like, nobody, nobody smokes their first cigarette thinking they’re going to die of emphysema, you know, but so, but there’s this part of you that’s like, well, why would he [00:19:16] Jeff: that’d be a super dark turn. Why, why do you want to try it? Well, here’s the thing. [00:19:20] Merlin: Well, you’ll die, but like, that’s not how life works. That’s not how human habits work. And that’s why I love the, I think, It’s easy enough for somebody to just turn this off at this point and go, God, curiosity about how math works. Well, no, but like, Jeff, I think you’re talking about at least a couple kinds of curiosity. [00:19:38] Merlin: The kind that may be obvious and is worth being obvious is that, hey, I’m kind of curious, there’s this new thing, and like, what does it do? There’s the other kind of curiosity, which is like, I may not understand I may not be so close to the metal that I understand how, like, transistors or fabs or whatever. [00:19:56] Merlin: I may not understand how the metal makes computer go, but I [00:20:00] am deeply curious about how it arrived at this particular way of looking at the question that I asked. And there is almost inevitably something for me to learn from that. And that’s it for today. I, if you, if anybody out there wants to go like, well, yeah, I mean, that’s the same thing as like looking at tea leaves or, you know, uh, slaughtering a chicken to see what the future’s going to be. [00:20:18] Merlin: You can put value and purpose into anything, but I do believe that I am, I’m learning a lot about something. And a lot of times I’m not sure what it is that I’m learning about, but I’m definitely learning something. And the results continue to be extremely interesting. And that just makes me more curious. [00:20:37] Merlin: And to your previous point, it’s, I really honestly don’t mean this. So, you know, it’s, in the critical way that it often sounds, but like, it’s not for everybody. [00:20:45] Jeff: Right. [00:20:46] Merlin: And [00:20:47] Jeff: Right. Like that’s part of the curiosity problem. It’s like, you should, part of being curious is to assume immediately, [00:20:52] Merlin: like imagine somebody’s like, Oh my gosh, my phone’s out of power and I can’t charge it and I got to go on this long flight. And you’re like, well, here’s a copy of the Power Broker and you’re like, [00:21:00] Oh, thanks. So there’s like a 1200 page book, like really, uh, but really I just want to charge my phone. [00:21:05] Merlin: And you’re like, yeah, but this is a really good book and you should read it. And like, and, but you know, it’s a silly analogy, but you know what I’m saying? Like it’s, I actually. Ended up accidentally saying a lot of things I liked about this on the latest Dubai Friday, so forgive me if I repeat a little bit of this, but like, the way I look at it in some ways is that people, even people who are like using or are aware of LLMs, or in particular for me, ChatGPT, it’s, I think they treat it a little bit like a vending machine, where it’s like, Or, like, imagine a vending machine at an airport where you can buy a tooth, or like at a hotel where you can buy a toothbrush. [00:21:43] Merlin: Like, or, or, there’s another vending machine where you can go and buy chips. Well, like, I don’t need to buy anything right now, so I don’t need any vending machines. Well, of course, there will be the day you realize you forgot your toothbrush, and you’ll pay 7 for a vending machine toothbrush, because you really want to brush your teeth. [00:21:56] Merlin: That’s how life works. I don’t think it’s wholesome, [00:22:00] and this might be a straw man, if so, forgive me. I don’t think it’s wholesome to look at this as a vending machine. In, in, in one way it’s, I’ll explain in a minute, it’s useful to look at it as a vending machine. But if you think you’re going to walk up to this thing, hit a button and get a Coke. [00:22:13] Merlin: You’re going to be disappointed, because that’s not really what this is for. In some versions of this, it’s not even very good at arithmetic. Oh my god, look how dumb this thing is, it’s a computer and it can’t do arithmetic. Well yeah, but we know enough to know that that’s not, I mean, okay, alright, alright, I’m fine. [00:22:27] Merlin: But then on the other hand, that vending machine analogy works because there are people who act as though they’re asking a Coke machine whether they should get divorced. [00:22:35] Jeff: Right. [00:22:36] Merlin: we know Coke machines are good at is giving you a Coke. So if you want a Coke, that’s a good time to use a Coke machine. If you don’t drink Coke Or don’t have a credit card or a change, as we used to say, then you’re probably not going to interact with the machine. [00:22:49] Merlin: But when you do, if you think about it, it’d be pretty weird to go to the machine, start hitting buttons, and ask it if I can get divorced. If I should get divorced and what I would say is, [00:23:00] well, okay, first of all, you didn’t even put any money in the machine, so you can’t even get a Coke. But is that really a good use of a Coke machine? And I think it’s cynical to do the equivalent of saying, I asked this thing if I could get, if I should get divorced and all it did was give me a Coke or it gave me like a Fanta when I’d ask for a divorce. And it’s like, that’s how it feels to me sometimes when, when people try to impugn this entire sector. [00:23:28] Merlin: And I’m going to be the director of this huge growing piece of our future technology with this whole like, well, I didn’t have a use for it today and I’m pretty sure I don’t trust it and everything that comes out of it is bad and it stole everybody’s art. And like, it’s, then we’re getting into something that I call the phenomenon of everything is everything. [00:23:45] Merlin: Well, can we just talk about like one part of that? Maybe let’s start with the part of, I need to disabuse you of the idea that this is a Coke machine. And if it is a Coke machine, don’t ask it for relationship advice. And I feel like that’s, [00:24:00] to me, that’s a good way to understand it. What if you understood this more as like, talking to a friend who doesn’t know everything? [00:24:06] Merlin: Do you not talk to people if they’re sometimes incorrect? Do you not talk to people? [00:24:10] Sponsor: Pika [00:24:10] Let us break for a sponsor read. 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Microsoft So that’s Pika. page, that’s P I K A by the way, Pika. page slash Overtired. It’s loads simpler than WordPress, Newshook, and way less expensive than Squarespace. In fact, your first 50 blog posts are free. [00:26:33] Boy, I barely get to 50 every time I start a blog. I have a graveyard of blogs. This is an awesome deal. And Pika is made by a team of six real people who care and who actually answer your questions when you email them. That’s pika. page, p i k a. page, slash Overtired, pika. page, slash Overtired. And use Overtired 20 for 20 percent off your first year of the [00:27:00] pro plan. [00:27:00] Thank you, Pika, for sponsoring Overtired. Very grateful. It’s a great service. And now back to my conversation with Merlin Mann. [00:27:09] Because of How We Are [00:27:09] Jeff: You said something. This was also I mean that I revisited that Reconcilable Differences, because it was such an interesting, it was kind of where I initially thought I really want to have Merlin on Overtired, which was the first time earlier this year. Um, but you said something there, and you said, I can immediately see the usefulness of this thing because of how I am. [00:27:27] Jeff: And, and I’m wondering if you can kind of give me an example of, of something that is just a perfect example of what the usefulness is for you, and I know there’s lots of different ways, but and and how it is useful because [00:27:40] Merlin: because of how I am. [00:27:42] Jeff: does that mean? [00:27:43] Merlin: Um, I think, is it cool to talk about this? [00:27:48] Jeff: Yeah, please. [00:27:49] Merlin: I can give you one. I mean, I’ll avoid all the prologue stuff, but like, I’ve been at ChatGPT for, I don’t know, I think over a year now. I’ve done some image generation stuff, but [00:28:00] ChatGPT is the one I’ve sort of imprinted on in the Conrad Lorenz sense, like this is my daddy. [00:28:04] Merlin: Like this is the one I feel like I mostly understand. It just doesn’t make sense to me to run around and try 60 of these. You know, learning one, let me learn this one hammer before I buy more hammers or even try more hammers. Here’s one of the first ways is. A term I might be abusing or misusing, but is that I, for whatever reason, there’s a thing you can learn. [00:28:28] Merlin: A consultant can come out and you’re gonna teach all the executives about lateral thinking. Or what some people, I think, erroneously call thinking outside the box. But, you know, There are, there’s, there, if you think of the world as, as these, these series of different kinds of grids or, uh, graphs or spreadsheets, you know, with two different kinds of things on it, like, I, without even being able to help myself have a kind of emotional synesthesia, where I very easily, easily slip into at least thinking about things that are related to the thing in a way that others don’t.[00:29:00] [00:29:00] Merlin: Which on the one hand is what occasionally makes me funny. Honestly, part of being funny is being able to relate to unrelated things. Okay, so, like, I go into this thinking, like, I hear somebody speak in a certain cadence, and it makes me think of a line from The Simpsons. Or something a little bit more Like, really closer to the liberal arts in terms of like, well, that process that you just described sounds a lot like one of Hegel’s tripartite charts. [00:29:27] Merlin: And like, not, not necessarily, not, not to brag or like say like, oh, listen to me, I read a book, but more a way of saying like, when you become widely read and learned at least about a handful of topics, you kind of can’t help but keep relating them to each other. So I just want to stipulate that that’s one thing that’s weird about me in a way that I think is unusual. [00:29:45] Merlin: I’m a mess. Talking to me is a nightmare. But like, I can’t help but think laterally because that’s just how I think. I think maybe if you wanted to put that more negatively, one of my challenges, apart [00:30:00] from problems with authority in life, is that I am, I’m not good at thinking laterally. Unilaterally. [00:30:06] Jeff: Hmm. [00:30:07] Merlin: And that doesn’t mean I can’t stay on topic because I sure can, but I find it, I feel like it really just grinds it into the ground to when you’re sitting around with people and you go like, okay, well we’ve done, we’ve done one, and we’ve done two, and we’ve done three. [00:30:18] Merlin: What do we think comes next? Everybody goes, well, I think that’s gonna be four. All right. And then after four, and you’re, I’m like. Oh my God, you guys are killing me. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that could be the Dave Brubeck song, 5, that could, like, there’s all these different things where I’m like, my brain is going in a million directions about what 5 means, Jackson 5, my list of 5, like, I can’t stop doing that. [00:30:38] Merlin: So here’s an example. One of the early things Well, honestly, was realizing that this is a good fit for people who think that way. I don’t, I’m not going to say that it’s a bad fit for people who don’t think that way. I watch so much TV in general, but I also, I’m always thinking, for example, oh, it’s that [00:31:00] guy from the thing. [00:31:01] Merlin: Except from that thing, not the thing, that would be Wilford Brimley. But like, uh, but, but like, for example, last night, I, I gotta make my wife watch the worst shit. We were watching, I was watching the 25th anniversary, uh, performance of, uh, Les Mis. And they do this wonderful thing where all of the, like, you know, available original cast comes out there, you know? And like the guy who plays the, what’s it called, like the innkeeper, the Sacha Baron Cohen character in the movie. La la la la, master of the house, da ba da ba da ba da ba da la there’s a free for all. He’s played by this actor in 1985. He’s played by this actor who I love from lots of British TV shows. [00:31:43] Merlin: Uh, uh, especially Shakespearean stuff. He’s in the Hall of Crown. Uh, the Henry the Fourth, uh, and Fifth, uh, thing. And I was just saying to my wife, like, that guy, I love that guy. He’s one of those guys. He’s one of those guys like Jared Harris or like the guy who plays Filch in Harry Potter. That guy’s [00:32:00] in everything. [00:32:00] Merlin: So what do I do? I let go and I let God. I’m accepting the fact that I’m weird and I think like this and I go in one of my early things that continues to be something I do a lot. And I’m not going to read this. I’ll just. because I’ve done this so many times, uh, make me a markdown table of everybody who’s been in at least one episode of Doctor Who, at least one episode of Game of Thrones, um, Uh, Doctor Who, Game of Thrones, um, what was the other one? [00:32:30] Merlin: Uh, oh, oh, oh, and then like Hot Fuzz, I threw in a few, or Shakespeare, blah, blah. I’ve done this a million different ways. But even if you do that with three things, if you do that with Harry Potter and, um, and Game of Thrones, you’re gonna say, oh, it’s the guy who played Filch, it’s the guy who’s Walder Frey. [00:32:47] Merlin: He’s been in all those things. It gives you a table of here’s like seven people. And then I say, Oh, that’s a pretty good table. It’s got, you know, you can, if you’re a nerd, you know, all this stuff there’s as everybody knows, there’s only 11 actors on the entire [00:33:00] island. But, but, but you know what I’m saying? [00:33:01] Merlin: And then, but then I say, that’s really cool. Okay. Now new columns for name of role. And it just knows to do that. One time I asked it this kind of question where I said, actors who’ve been inductor, actors who’ve been inductor, who Hot fuzz and some Shakespeare production, Henry the V or whatever. And then I did this thing where I said in the columns, I said, roll in a Harry Potter movie. [00:33:29] Merlin: I didn’t have to tell it. In the, quote, question or prompt, it just knew what to do, and it just added that column. [00:33:37] Jeff: Yes. [00:33:37] Merlin: Now, why is that great? Well, great, that’s great because that’s the way my mind works, and I think it’s kind of cool to see that, um, God, what is that guy’s name? David Bradley. David Bradley, he’s in, God, he’s in everything. [00:33:47] Merlin: And he’s the guy who mumbles in Hot Fuzz, the guy who has the guns. [00:33:51] Jeff: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:33:52] Merlin: Have you seen season four of Game of Thrones? [00:33:55] Jeff: Yep. [00:33:56] Merlin: So you know Wal you know Wal you know Walder [00:33:58] Jeff: Yes, of course, yeah. [00:33:59] Merlin: Okay.[00:34:00] [00:34:00] Jeff: Amazing. That’s [00:34:02] Merlin: know his granddaughter’s name. [00:34:04] Jeff: right. [00:34:06] Merlin: Waldeen, [00:34:09] Jeff: Oh my god. It’s been a long time. [00:34:12] Merlin: but, uh, so on the one hand, okay. Would I ever do that on my own? [00:34:17] Merlin: Would I ever really like sit down and go to IMDB? And remember, everything has to be perfect. So I have to find this exactly right. So by hand, I’m going to go in, I’m going to go make a spreadsheet, right? If I did this by myself, you can see where this is going. It would be kind of silly for me to do that. [00:34:33] Merlin: Number one way that this is good for the way that I am, this is already how I think. And And I run into challenges with how I could take what I think or what I’m curious about and turn it into something without a grave amount of extra work. Okay. So first, I know it can do that. And second of all, it will do that. [00:34:51] Merlin: And what it comes up with may not be perfect. Sometimes it’s not even right. But that’s one way, that’s a starter, okay, [00:35:00] is like, you may be a person who does not think this way. You may not be a person who makes a lot of spreadsheets. I have spreadsheets about every flashlight I’ve ever owned. I have spreadsheets about every Uh, two factor authentication, Dingus I own, with pictures and serial numbers and links to documentation. [00:35:19] Merlin: I have a PDF of the manual for every item I own on iCloud. These are, that’s all weird, and that’s okay. But if one asks the question, who is this nonsense for? Oh brother, is this nonsense ever for me? Or I can just say, make a block, I need a block. Uh, that’s, uh, 50mm wide with a circle through the middle that tapers on the end and has a chamfer of this fillet on the, on the edges, and it’ll create me a 3MJ, like a 3D object like that. [00:35:46] Merlin: Yeah, that’s how my mind works. I would rather do that for a simple device than have to learn CAD. Yeah, but do you really understand FDM printing if you haven’t learned CAD? I’ll never find out! Like, I’m willing to learn CAD when I need to, but if [00:36:00] there’s this thing that can do that thing for me, and it’s the same thing that’ll tell me what David Bradley’s in, and plus then, I’m getting way ahead now, with the addition of memory, which is not working so great on the current model, but like all those different kinds of things, uploading images, all those things like that, and that’s what leads me to just a slight sadness that it’s not something somebody else could find as interesting as I have, but if we keep doing The bar seems to keep coming back to these two things, which is like, is there anything bad or nefarious in any conceivable way with what this thing is? [00:36:31] Merlin: Wow. Sounds like pretty much every technology, doesn’t it? Is there something bad or nefarious and like, could this actually be something useful but limited even if it’s not always quote right? And the answer to both of those questions is a no brainer for me. Like, go show me the thing that’s always exactly right. [00:36:46] Merlin: That’s always exactly right and up to date. That’s always exactly right and up to date and contextual. You know what that takes? It takes your fucking brain going in and deciding what you think about whether that’s the correct answer. [00:36:57] Jeff: Yeah. [00:36:58] Merlin: And it’s just that in the case of this, [00:37:00] because it’s not thinking in a conventional sense, it’s not computing in a conventional sense, you’re going to get some really weird stuff. [00:37:07] Merlin: And then when you say to it, well, did you forget that David Bradley was this and that, it’ll go, I’m sorry, I’ve made a mistake, blah, blah, blah. I asked it recently, last week, I can tell you specifically, I asked it what year the building that my mother lives in was built. For hurricane reasons. And it very confidently gave me a year, I asked for the citation for that. [00:37:28] Merlin: Asking ChatGPT for a citation is funny, because in some ways it really can’t know what the citation is. Like, it’ll make up a citation, because the same way that the human mind will come up with a reason why it does everything. But it doesn’t. I, and I just kept pushing it and pursuing it and said, no, that was incorrect. [00:37:44] Merlin: I shouldn’t have told you that. It was like a French, it was like a waiter that had dropped a roll and felt really bad about it and just didn’t want to talk about it. And I kept pushing it and pushing it. And I was like, no, no, no. I want to like figure out, it’s not, I’m not mad. LLM. I’m just curious how you arrived at that. [00:37:57] Merlin: And it told me how it thinks, [00:38:00] this is the thing. It told me how it thinks. Thinks it made a mistake about something where it has no way of knowing that it made a mistake. So it came up with a reason why it thought it was 1998 or 1973. It came up with a reason why it got that wrong. You don’t saying like all the way through. [00:38:16] Merlin: I find all of that endlessly fascinating and it doesn’t make me trust it less. It makes me. As aware as ever that this is not where to go for facts a lot of the time. And if it is where to go for facts, I mean, if it makes me that table dude, like, can’t I just go in and fix the stuff that I know isn’t right? [00:38:37] Merlin: Or where it came up with a synonym for something? It still saved me, like, it saves me three hours of work on every task, every day. [00:38:46] Jeff: if you’re the type of person, which you and I both are, who is going to take the time to make that incredibly tedious [00:38:52] Merlin: fact check all my tweets, [00:38:54] Jeff: yes, this thing is going to get you. I mean, I just, the other day, I, you know, I’ve been sitting on a pile of my [00:39:00] tickets from First Avenue shows, uh, from the nineties, I was sitting on that pile forever. [00:39:04] Jeff: I love to look at it. And I’ve always wanted. A spreadsheet of everything. And so I was like, ah, I’ll try this. I took pictures of five at a time and I put them in the chat GPT. And I said, I want, I want a spreadsheet. I want a CSV and I want you to put everything. I want the door time, the, the show time. I want the price. [00:39:21] Jeff: I want, I want the opening band, all the opening, whatever, everything. Right. Like everything I want [00:39:25] Merlin: And I think also importantly, maybe not First Avenue, because you’re all at the same place in the same city. For me, it’s also the venue. Where I’m like, I can’t remember if this was at the Cuban Club in Ybor City, or, you know what I mean? [00:39:35] Jeff: Yeah. And if it’s the early show, say it’s the early show. If it’s the late show, say it’s the late show. And it created this, this CSV that I will say when I looked at it, um, I, I have, for whatever reason, I have a deep compulsion to be able to hold a lot of things at once in a way that I can look at them all. [00:39:54] Jeff: And that makes me feel very calm. And, and when I looked at what was [00:40:00] essentially a timeline of a really important decade of my life, And this thing gave that to me. Um, it was, it’s exactly why I use this tool. There’s a million other reasons. I use it for really [00:40:11] Merlin: Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s difficult, but isn’t, I mean, we’re both, I think, struggling a little bit to describe what the thing of that is. I can answer the question of why I think it’s good for me, because of how I. How I am, if you like, or how I think, but, but like what you’re describing there, like, just creating a table that I would fill in later. [00:40:29] Merlin: Well, thank God for Brett’s table flip, which is a great app. But you know what I mean? Like, even just [00:40:33] Jeff: That’s not Brett. Christian Tietz, the guy who created the archive. [00:40:37] Merlin: oh, oh, wait a minute. Oh, wait, is he the Zytel, [00:40:42] Jeff: Yeah, Zettelkasten guy, which, Zettelkasten, not unrelated to this conversation, but very unrelated in a lot of [00:40:48] Merlin: put a pin [00:40:48] Jeff: We’re not, we’re not gonna, it’s, [00:40:50] Merlin: Sorry, sorry, I regret the error. But like, even just the mechanics of I mean, it sounds easy, but you go to IMDB and look up David Bradley, you can see everything he’s in. Well, that’s one, [00:41:00] that’s one angle of that. That’s one row or column of that. But how would I even know what I don’t know about? [00:41:08] Jeff: Mm [00:41:08] Merlin: And that’s where, and if it fills in a table, if it creates the basis of a table with 25 lines in it, I can always change all of that later. I can also ask it to do better. And it often does. But, you know, and then it’s frustrating because sometimes I might, one of my original use cases was making playlists for YouTube and Spotify back, back in the day when the store first started and you can have different, you know, um, I seem to have kind of gotten away from that a little bit. [00:41:33] Merlin: I don’t exactly understand why, but like, it’s even just creating the, you know, the And the frame for what it is that I’m exploring helps me think about it better. [00:41:43] Jeff: Yeah. [00:41:44] Merlin: And singing, and here’s another example. When I said, God damn it, oh, you know what it is? Here’s a recent one. As of a week or two ago, a kid and I went to see Megalopolis and I said, I want to see, [00:41:55] Jeff: my boys to see that this weekend. [00:41:57] Merlin: my God, [00:42:00] get back to the club. [00:42:01] Merlin: Um, [00:42:03] Jeff: Okay, anyway. [00:42:04] Merlin: you know, you can stop time. [00:42:05] Jeff: Ha! Yeah! No, yeah, right. Woo! [00:42:11] Merlin: A lot of ideas. A lot of ideas in that. Um, but, uh, but. I find, and again this, I’m trying to be big hearted and open and honest and kind to everyone in the way that I say this, but I, I don’t mean this in a mean way, but maybe this is not interesting to other people. [00:42:26] Merlin: Maybe people want a Coke machine that produces just the Coke that they want, this is exactly the temperature that they want, and the more, but the more time I spend with this, the more I realize that it is a collaboration, that there’s ways that, you know, we I could be better at asking for, asking what I want, like I, cause we’re all in the same way that we have these occasionally somewhat long term dysfunctional relationships cause we don’t know how to ask for what we want or to ask people what they want, we don’t know how to talk to people about stuff and so we satisfy through life with all this like sort of getting by. [00:42:57] Merlin: Well, with this, I get a much more. [00:43:00] Active in a direct way, however this thing is made, whatever computer it’s running on, there are things to learn from this. [00:43:06] Jeff: Yeah. [00:43:06] Merlin: And the thing is, if I tell it, hey, you know, you did a bad job at that, do this instead, this is what I wanted. Not to be mean, but just, again, collaboration, which is like, I see how, now I think I see how you got there, but what I really want is more of this. [00:43:20] Merlin: And then with this latest model, as I was saying to Alex, it’s more and more I’m getting away from this XY problem of going in and asking for something deeply technical instead of just saying, go make this for me. And it does. And I don’t know. I don’t know how you don’t find that exciting. I’m somebody who first started multitrack recording with two cassettes. [00:43:41] Merlin: and a pause button. I used to try and make mixes that way. Like, I, I had a four track, uh, our college had one, and then I have, like, I’m forever using, like, spit and bailing wire and rubber, rubber bands and Maxell tapes to try and produce a world that makes sense. And [00:44:00] anything that helps these parts It’s like, it’s part, can we, is there no way to look at this as another tool in the box? [00:44:22] Merlin: The title of the episode comes from this, The Greatest Screwdriver in the World, is the idea that like, no matter how good your screwdriver is, you can’t use it for everything. Even if you have a, uh, like a, uh, a Vera, like really good screwdriver with, that’s, it’s still not, it’s not even good for every screw, dude. [00:44:37] Merlin: It’s, if it’s a flathead and you’ve got a Phillips head, well, that’s not what that’s for. And that doesn’t mean the screw failed you. [00:44:45] Jeff: you, you said something a little bit ago, or you kind of got towards something that I, that has been really meaningful to me. And if I were to use it, if I were in a classroom and I was using ChatGPT to teach something, what I would teach is essentially the experience for [00:45:00] me of Being forced to slow down and be specific. [00:45:05] Jeff: And like you said about what you want, right? And in human relationships, the funny thing is, it’s bad at, it’s bad at interpreting what you say you don’t want. It’s, it’s really only good at interpreting what you say you do want, which I think is a very funny, very human dynamic. But like, [00:45:18] Merlin: And that’s something, that’s something we tolerate or sometimes enjoy, I guess, that kind of chunking and heuristics and all the sorts of things are the kinds of things that make, make our day to day human life with each other. Like. Like bearable in the same way that like you say to somebody how you doing and they go into a 14 minute speech about their how their mudroom is getting relined and it’s taking forever and you’re like, well, I just said that to be polite. [00:45:41] Merlin: I didn’t really want to know about your mudroom, but we tolerate that. We have such a low tolerance for how wrong this, these things are all the time. And it’s like, I don’t know if that’s the best way to look at it. I mean, is a, I mean, a Xerox machine is wrong in some ways because all it’s doing is making in the back in the day, and we have black and white image. [00:45:58] Merlin: It’s not the book that’s just a black [00:46:00] and white image of the book. I don’t mean to get all semiotic, but like it’s not actually that complicated. We interact with stuff all day long, every day our entire life. That is far less reliable at ChatGPT, it’s just that they’re less reliable at things we’ve learned how to tolerate and not be scared of. [00:46:15] Jeff: yes, yes. I’m wondering, you, I don’t know if you want to talk about this or not, but I know [00:46:21] Merlin: I want to talk about your repo, all this stuff you’ve got in here. My [00:46:24] Jeff: you see that? I took, yeah, okay, so I’ll explain. I [00:46:27] Merlin: But, you know, I just, I don’t want to [00:46:29] Jeff: Yeah, we’ll get to [00:46:30] Merlin: a way that we don’t get to talk about all your very good stuff you’ve put in here. [00:46:33] Jeff: Um, I, oh man, what was I saying? What was I [00:46:37] Merlin: Um, ChatGPTs and the right tool for the job or tolerance, tolerance for people and tolerance for incorrectness. Yeah. [00:46:46] Jeff: I’ll tell you what, I will, I will actually, this will come back to me, I’m sure, but like, this thing about slowing down and being, So I’m going to talk a little bit about what I have found, I mean, I’ve found this literally, it’s almost like we talked about practices last [00:47:00] time. It can be almost like a practice because my nature is to want to gather up so much, so fast, because I want to see the connections in the world. [00:47:09] Jeff: I want to see through some other window. I mean, I think there’s a lot of reasons that this connects to how I grew up and my kind of interior life as I was [00:47:17] Merlin: Yes, [00:47:18] Jeff: sort of, sort of [00:47:19] Merlin: Expansive, and Expansive, this is the beauty of the Lonely Boys title, is that expansive inner world, that like, we always wanna like impose upon our children, of like, you should be bored more, it’s like, no, god, what a piece of shit you are to say stuff like that, but like the expansive interior world of like, this is the book I’ve got, and I’m gonna read it and read it and read it, and like, I’m, you know, just like the funny drawings that you make, and all those little things that are just part of, An expansive interior world where you haven’t learned to be ashamed of, of how little you know in life and what excites you in life. [00:47:53] Merlin: And everybody’s supposed to become so ashamed about all those things and so confident about all these other things and like [00:48:00] put on this big show and it’s like, well, no, I’m always going to be, I’m always going to be a Lasky Child at heart. [00:48:04] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Wondering, wondering, wondering, right? Like, imagining what these connections might [00:48:11] Merlin: Too much time, not enough money. No, it’s too much time, not enough money, a life in Florida. There’s a [00:48:21] Jeff: Oh, that’s good. I like that. I like that a lot. Um, yeah. Anyway, I found that really, and initially I experienced that in trying to do code stuff, but then when I just wanted information, when I wanted to make those goofy tables, I, I eventually got kind of quick at it, but like, I actually loved having to stop because this is the thing. [00:48:38] Jeff: It’s almost a manic energy to me wanting to [00:48:40] Merlin: I know, I know, it’s weird that I feel like I know exactly what you mean, which is like, think about the scene when Luke is doing the trench run, [00:48:49] Jeff: Yes. [00:48:49] Merlin: right when, right when Obi Wan tells him to like, use the force, and right, you know, it’s before he turns off the, the targeting thing, but there’s that moment where he has this like, little, you know, Human caesura, where [00:49:00] he’s kind of like, okay, this is the way I’m going to do this. [00:49:05] Merlin: And, you know, the way, and I’m not saying like, oh, I got to talk myself off. No, but that’s, sometimes we find a moment of grace like that where you go, oh, wait a minute. I can totally do this. And I just need I need to, my head in the game, I need to focus on this, I need to do the thing, but being weird about it is not helping. [00:49:23] Merlin: You know, a two meter target, that’s a very small target. Isn’t that kind of what you’re describing? Then when I sit down, I’m like, I’m so used to this, like, ah, you’re a coke machine. [00:49:31] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:32] Merlin: the factorial of blah is, and like, you’re stupid. And instead just go like, oh, I see. But if I ask for it this way, and with different models, you learn different things. [00:49:43] Merlin: But you’re right though, you, it’s a slower, more deliberative, purpose, on purpose kind of thinking. [00:49:50] Jeff: Which is not something I think it takes. This is getting back to the, like, does somebody have the curiosity to have the conversation? That is the thing that is miles away when you [00:50:00] start most conversations about ChatGPT. And it’s the first thing I’m thinking about. It’s the thing I’m trying. I’m waiting for the point where in this conversation, I can say this part. [00:50:09] Jeff: So we get past all of your incuriosity. And I can say, think about this part, right, that they’re actually, you know, there was a point at which I fed it. Talks I had given about storytelling or story gathering, I fed it old bios I had written, I fed it interviews with me on podcasts, and I said, tell me about this guy. [00:50:27] Jeff: And, and what it gave, what it gave me back was all the stuff that I am. I am too something to tell myself I am. It was right. I was like, that is me. Goddammit. I would never say it out loud, but you have just described me to me in a way that actually amazingly gives me a little permission to sort of like hold that and be proud [00:50:47] Merlin: I mean, was it doing it? If you can say, like, how was it trying? Was it trying to describe the person who said all that? It was [00:50:54] Jeff: Yes. So it was a [00:50:55] Merlin: qualities or like tendencies or [00:50:57] Jeff: me qualities about this person. Tell me what [00:51:00] this person’s priorities are. Tell me what kind of, you know, life is important to this person. Um, and, and there was, everything was like right on. I’m like, yes, no, that is how I would describe myself, but have always been a little too something to do it. [00:51:13] Jeff: Like, that voice is in you going, oh, shut the fuck up. Um, yeah. And, and so here was this thing, and this would sound so absurd to so many people here, was this thing that in reflecting back to me, myself at my fucking request, by the way, uh, , like I actually, [00:51:30] Merlin: for this. I said I wanted this. [00:51:32] Jeff: I felt things, I was able to actually like unlock a sort of relationship with myself that wasn’t there. [00:51:37] Jeff: I don’t wanna over blow this, but like, but it was, this is the kinda shit that like if you get, if you get past the, in curiosity and. [00:51:45] Merlin: But I mean, think about Eliza, which is a story everybody knows, which, [00:51:48] Jeff: I [00:51:51] Merlin: but the, um, but the, the, the, the thing where the guy at Berkeley, I think, came up with the program, it’s the famous, God, I’m sorry, I’m telling the story like Siracusa, but like [00:51:59] Jeff: know it.[00:52:00] [00:52:00] Merlin: oh, E L I Z A, Google it, um, and this guy had come up with a program that appears to be, it’s very basic, like, you know, Command line program where he says, Hey, hi, I’m Eliza. [00:52:09] Merlin: Like, how are you? And you talk to it and it’s a very elementary program. So a lot of what it does is mirroring and asking questions. And it says, well, how do you feel about that? And the story, and this is, I don’t know, this could be one of those twice told tales was like the guy showed it to his admin and like, she was like, could you please leave the room? [00:52:29] Merlin: I just want to do this for two hours. People would get so involved in Eliza. And at no point did somebody think that was a real person, quote [00:52:37] Jeff: yeah, yeah, [00:52:38] Merlin: doesn’t change the fact, like, why do, why are people so resistant to realize how much of themselves they bring to their work and what they do? [00:52:46] Merlin: Because if you did that, you would go, well, of course this is interesting. And I know this is a machine. Like, I was a child, I could throw a ball against a wall for two hours and be pretty happy. I mean, I didn’t think the wall was a person, but I was more amused than I would have been doing nothing. And [00:53:00] in that instance, because you are talking about yourself, but you’re realizing things. [00:53:03] Merlin: It’s. It’s a continuum of an exchange, even if it’s with a computer. Do you know what I mean? And it’s like, it’s like, we’ve known about that for 40, 50 years, that that’s a thing. And like, if you set somebody down in front of Eliza today, the exact same thing would happen. [00:53:19] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a yes. That’s a [00:53:24] Merlin: I see what you mean though. It does, it makes you, you’re getting at something emotional here. Like, it may just be a computer, but like, maybe you’re realizing something about yourself as you’re doing it. And I don’t. I think that’s unwholesome. [00:53:37] Jeff: No, yeah, exactly. It’s not unwholesome. I like that. I mean, and even to you, I mean, you had mentioned this repo. So I, I created a repo for the last episode where I wanted to just take the transcript and fuck around in ChatGPT and put what’s in there. It’s what came out of it in there. So the show notes are there too. [00:53:50] Jeff: That was human made, but like with the help of ChatGPT. But one of the things I did, and it took a lot of collaboration. It wasn’t just an easy thing was to, I wanted [00:54:00] a glossary of terms, uh, because what struck me about that conversation, which is the kind of conversation I love to have. And if I kind of tick off my, the closest people in my life, they’re almost all people with whom I can bounce around in that way. [00:54:14] Jeff: And, and that is a feeling of joy and wonder for me that I don’t always find with humans, right? Like, and, and so when I made that glossary of God knows [00:54:22] Merlin: I have so many things I can’t say about what you’re saying right now. I, there’s, it would be very difficult for me to agree with you more. To, to borrow, to borrow, again, to borrow a phrase from my brother, my brother and me. It’s just so, so difficult sometimes to find someone who’ll play with you in the space. [00:54:38] Jeff: yes, [00:54:38] Merlin: You know? [00:54:39] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, instantly if the person is not, or is that person, right? Like, it’s like, Oh, I got to figure out how to [00:54:46] Merlin: You’ll know pretty darn quickly. [00:54:48] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I said Bon Jovi way too soon in this conversation. [00:54:52] Merlin: Or like, I tend to think of it in terms of layers or levels, where it’s like, and my frustration, as I’ve said, is that I do feel like I sometimes, I’m [00:55:00] not trying to build myself up or puff myself up or anybody else down, [00:55:04] Jeff: ChatGPT do that for you. [00:55:05] Merlin: I’ll let Jeff GPT do that for me. [00:55:07] Merlin: There’s a lot of people out there who are very resistant to going any more than two levels into anything. It’s, and I’m not even talking about like weird like, you know, um, inception type stuff. I’m talking more like, well, here’s my, here’s my raw, hot take on this, here’s a yeah, but turns out about that. [00:55:23] Merlin: And it’s like, the thing is like, we haven’t even gotten to the third or fourth layer where we figured out this is actually not what this thing is about at [00:55:30] Jeff: Yes. [00:55:31] Merlin: there’s so little interest in pursuing that, and because people like that fast thinking. And at this point we should probably mention Daniel Kahneman, but I mean, I think that is related. [00:55:41] Merlin: The, the thinking fast and slow idea of like, there are these in behavioral economics, there are these things where like if, if I ask you, if you were a person like me and you, uh, and I ask you what 2N2 is, you can’t help but think four. You can’t, it’s like don’t think of an elephant type stuff. Whereas if I ask you to do longer [00:56:00] division with numbers that ends in, you know, sevens and nines, it gets harder, and you have to do a different kind of slower thinking. [00:56:06] Jeff: So I’m curious with you. [00:56:07] Jeff: Okay, so when I think of when I looked at that glossary when it was done, and if you look at the glossary, if anybody looks at this, I’ll put a link in the show notes. The descriptions are not something I have fully edited, [00:56:17] Merlin: Oh my gosh. Oh my God. Okay, so, sorry, sorry, sorry. So, so just to be clear, ’cause I’m stupid, you got from DS script or Mac Whisperer or something. You got a transcript of the show, it knows who’s who, what kind of prompt. So what I’m looking at here is a, uh, at least 260 line, uh uh, sorry, row. Markdown table with term category and definition. [00:56:42] Merlin: Can I ask, am I jumping ahead to ask roughly what you asked to get this? [00:56:45] Jeff: Yeah, sure. I mean, I’ll try to retrace my steps. I sort of played between models, the new, like, whatever, oh, one [00:56:51] Merlin: Like, how, how did you let it know? Like what should, how would you like Glossary would include? So it’s just anything novel. [00:56:57] Jeff: so actually, I started in kind of a [00:57:00] funny way, which was to sort of test it, and that was something I’ve been doing with some interview transcripts in my work, was I fed the new model, our transcript, and said, I want to see a markdown checklist of all the things you think might have been mistranscribed, right? [00:57:16] Merlin: I love this. I [00:57:17] Jeff: And that, that became that was the beginning of the glossary because and they were coming up with stuff like Karras is not with a C, it’s with a K. And it comes from Kurt Vonnegut and like all that, [00:57:27] Merlin: I, I I, I’ve done that thing where like, this is a big thing people talked about for a while. Ask it to be this or ask it to be that. Ask it to do this. I, I’ve asked it to be the, the most knowledgeable person in the world about home, home technologies, like smart home technology and, um, show me the, the show in the thing that I just wrote is the thing that I just made. [00:57:46] Merlin: Um, show me the things that are the biggest problem. Show me the things that are most likely to be untrue. Fact check my work, act like you’re the smartest person in the world. Find the, here’s another way to put it, find the weakest part of my argument. [00:57:58] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:57:58] Merlin: And it’s pretty good at [00:58:00] that. [00:58:00] Jeff: Mm [00:58:00] Merlin: When you ask it to be somebody smart, [00:58:02] Jeff: Well, and what blew my mind, I intentionally did, so initially when I tried to do this, I gave it like my bio and yours and like, here are the two guys that are talking, now go through this and whatever, right? And it actually wasn’t that effective. It got kind of confused. When I said nothing, it pulled that new model, pulled sort of context so well, and caught things that it should never have caught. [00:58:22] Jeff: Like, it shouldn’t have known how to spell Sebedo, like necessarily, because [00:58:26] Merlin: you must’ve, you must’ve really put it, you must’ve put a hurting on some tokens here. Likes. Seriously. Like [00:58:34] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. [00:58:35] Merlin: I mean, there’s so many I’m see, I see so many tokens in what it came up with here. [00:58:40] Jeff: so here’s so okay, so if I’m if I’m walking through the process, that was the beginning of the process. And actually, in the repo, there’s a there’s one file that’s just amusing corrections that it that it felt like it was seeing it. So that’s, that’s where I started like, okay, well, that’s really interesting. [00:58:56] Jeff: So actually, actually, I mean, [00:58:58] Merlin: I like to cut up your [00:59:00] jib. [00:59:00] Jeff: I’d like to cut up your chip. It’s [00:59:02] Merlin: Um, so, so actually Vampire title is an album, not an ep. Um, [00:59:06] Jeff: That’s the other one. It’s like such a, such a dude half the time. [00:59:10] Merlin: oh, I know. It’s, it’s a character from U Nice. Today I call Carl Van Hoot. So actually, um, [00:59:18] Jeff: So okay, so actually here was the me here was the me It was the manual step. I, I like, I never ask it to fix things in a transcript and feed me the transcript back. I say, give me a markdown checklist, and then I go through. So I actually manually changed based on that checklist. Then I fed it in again. [00:59:34] Jeff: What do you see that might be wrong? And then I felt like I was ready to say, I want a glossary of terms. And it took a little bit of like, no, no, when I say terms. I don’t want these things. I want these types of things. And then it was like, but then it was pretty easy. It was like, I want a column that’s sort of a description. [00:59:51] Jeff: I want you to group it. I want to give a little category so you can group it. And the kinds of shit that it was filling in was really unbelievable to me. [01:00:00] Um, and so, yeah, that was the back and forth really. There was a lot of just massaging, like, yeah, you basically got it. And then I edited three or four of the entries. [01:00:08] Jeff: And it’s not that there’s not more that should be, but those are the ones that [01:00:11] Merlin: Huey Lewis sports [01:00:13] Jeff: Yeah, [01:00:14] Merlin: Huey Lewis and the News sports. [01:00:16] Jeff: actually, uh, I think it also corrected, you had said, [01:00:21] Merlin: Tripanning. Didn’t like my tripanning. [01:00:23] Jeff: oh yeah, that’s drilling into the head, uh, there was a point at which you, you, um, were talking about David Bowie introducing Adrienne Ballou, and you [01:00:32] Merlin: Actually, he’s from [01:00:33] Jeff: from, and it was like, actually, Adrienne Ballou was from, it’s just amazing, [01:00:38] Merlin: that’s so great. How much did it cost you to hire everyone on Mastodon? [01:00:43] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [01:00:44] Merlin: I can only have one of two opinions about everything. Either I don’t care about what you’re saying, or I think it’s wrong. [01:00:51] Jeff: But Merlin, here’s the crazy thing. Like, when I was done with that and I looked at it, it was similar when I looked at the list of like, I don’t know, 36 [01:01:00] songs or something. I think there might be a few more, but the ones that I identified through ChatGPT were 36. Um, I, I looked at that and I said, that’s all in me. [01:01:10] Jeff: Like that, that was a, that was the transcript of just the 90 [01:01:14] Merlin: By the way, it would be one thing to see, like, your EKG or something expressed as a line and go, Well, that’s my heart. And in this you’re like, Oh my gosh, this has all been in me the whole time, it’s just now I’m seeing it in a table. [01:01:25] Jeff: Yes. And that’s [01:01:26] Merlin: I know what all these things mean. Isn’t that weird? [01:01:28] Jeff: Yes. And that and the fact that you and I were bouncing on that. It’s like there is another person and there are there’s other people that for some fucking reason, some of it you can you can guess certain movies, we’re all going to talk about Big Lebowski, right? Like, that’s not a surprise. [01:01:41] Jeff: But like, the sort of the sort of like, multiverse kind of multiverse [01:01:47] Merlin: not wrong, Walter, you’re just an asshole. [01:01:49] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I, when I say, um, that it feels almost warm to see my [01:01:57] Merlin: the fact, okay, but like here’s the thing about what you’re saying right [01:02:00] here. So let me find the one I was looking at a minute ago in your, this, this playlist, the glossary. Okay, so it did a pretty good job of finding 266 That’s individual monads of thing that we talked about in this show. Turned it into a table, said what kind of category it was, and it even defined it. [01:02:18] Merlin: Let me go look down here. Oh, geez. Boy, well, that’s a shame. Look at line 43. [01:02:24] Jeff: Wait, I’m not in it. What’s [01:02:25] Merlin: Oh, it’s okay. It’s just a bummer. It says, Buy Thomas Harris, instead of [01:02:30] Jeff: mean, [01:02:32] Merlin: Thomas Harris is the, I mean, I know this. Like, I, like, unlike ChatGPT, I know this. Thomas Harris, you know, wrote the Hannibal Lecter novels. But, what a shame. [01:02:42] Merlin: And it’s even in the wrong order. It’s between Buzz Osborne and Carl Hyasson. What a shame. [01:02:50] Jeff: it was good to leave some of that. I should say, I made it add [01:02:54] Merlin: But it knows what Columbia House is! This is fucking insane that it can do this! [01:02:59] Jeff: Oh, it’s completely [01:03:00] insane. Yeah. And that’s, so that’s it. Like, and I look at that and if somebody said, would you like to listen to 90 minute conversation in which all these things are mentioned? I’m like, you know what, maybe [01:03:09] Merlin: Well, when you put it that way, it sounds bad. [01:03:13] Jeff: Amazing. So, yeah, that’s a, that’s just a way of, I like that a lot. [01:03:18] Jeff: I mean, I’m whole, so okay, do you remember the Beastie Boys magazine Grand Royal? [01:03:22] Merlin: Mm hmm. I, I posted, I just, I just found a copy in, [01:03:28] Jeff: you posted about Grand Royal. [01:03:29] Merlin: yeah, it’s the one with, um, Scratch Perry on the cover. It looks like a Wheaties box. [01:03:34] Jeff: Yep, I [01:03:35] Merlin: it’s the, it’s the one where, um, Rad Rock goes to the Guitar Tech, Institute of Technology with the Mullet Wick. [01:03:42] Jeff: So okay, so that’s a great example. I have the I have three of the episode. I think the first three [01:03:47] Merlin: Mine’s still got the decal for a shirt in it, and I’m thinking about making a [01:03:51] Jeff: doesn’t. Mine doesn’t. One of them has a record in it. Um, [01:03:54] Merlin: it came with the FlexiDisc in one of them, I [01:03:56] Jeff: a [01:03:57] Merlin: Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, Grand Royal, great. Spike Jonze, Spike Jonze [01:04:00] and Beastie Boys, Manor Magazine. [01:04:01] Jeff: this was a magazine that it’s no surprise you and I both hold dear, because it is exactly the kind of collection of the world that is all over the map, is so dense, and somehow Despite all that, it might really, really overwhelm a lot of people. [01:04:19] Jeff: But when I hold these, I’m holding all three now, I grabbed them last night, actually. When I hold all three of these, I feel like I’m holding a whole world. And if I wanted to just go into somebody’s world, it’s, it’s like a novel, practically, right? But it’s also a doorways to a thousand other worlds. And as much as I am always on the watch, in me, for my gathering instinct. [01:04:44] Jeff: Um, my gathering instinct is also a core piece of who I am, and my whole life has been figuring out how to harness it in a way that it doesn’t, it doesn’t sort [01:04:54] Merlin: I like that you’re saying gathering, the word we probably want to use is learning, but that would [01:05:00] put people off. So I like the way that you say gathering, but it’s like, I can’t learn enough new things. It’s just, I will never get sick of learning a new thing. [01:05:09] Jeff: Yes, and this, and this thing gives you an opportunity, just all by yourself, unless you choose to post about it, which I love to do, um, to just explore your world in the most fucked up ways. And sometimes, look, people say, well, but it’s wrong. Sometimes it’s wrong in really delightful ways that [01:05:25] Merlin: and sometimes, I [01:05:26] Jeff: weird [01:05:26] Merlin: is a This would actually be a useful podcast episode if we ever made one of those, but I think it could be argued that the errors are some of the most interesting things, or at least some of the most instructive things. At the very least, how do you not see an error and go like, wow, I wonder if that’s an error I could have helped with? [01:05:44] Jeff: Yeah, definitely. Or, or it’s the kind of thing, I had a friend, there was this amazing, he’s still around, Hiro Tanaka. He was a, he’s a Japanese guy who came to Minneapolis in the, in the early 90s, went to a Babes in Toyland show, met Lori, the drummer, she fell in love with him and had him stay, [01:06:00] fell in love, like, what a great human. [01:06:02] Jeff: And he went on tour with them. And for the next 10 years of his life, he was almost always on tour with an American indie rock band. And, and he went on tour with My band, he would just get in a van with people and he was always learning English with a notebook in his hand. And fun fact, my brother owns a bar in Brooklyn and the bathroom walls are papered with the pages of his book. [01:06:23] Merlin: That’s so cool. [01:06:24] Jeff: and, and you now imagine Merlin, he’s learning [01:06:27] Merlin: Boy, that must feel like a really insane place to urinate. [01:06:30] Jeff: he’s learning in English [01:06:32] Merlin: Oh my [01:06:32] Jeff: band vans in band vans So one day he comes to visit me. I remember he was on tour with with the Selby [01:06:40] Merlin: in the bottle. [01:06:40] Jeff: Yeah, he was on he was on tour with the Selby Tigers It’s a great band from Minneapolis and I was living in Chicago and they were staying overnight and I was in this kind of shitty neighborhood in Chicago and he and I were sitting outside in front of my house talking and in the like brown, weedy grass stuff, a mushroom was coming up and he looks at it and he goes, Oh, [01:07:00] ghetto mushroom. [01:07:03] Merlin: Oh my [01:07:04] Jeff: And that is exactly the kind of shit that can happen in ChatGPT where it’s like, that is a delightful mistake. [01:07:10] Merlin: Oh, I totally agree. An example, uh, I, I used before, there was one where, okay, and this, this goes back to, I’ll make this quick, but, um, okay, so you know what, actually, this is also, if I may say, a good example of your, one of your original questions, which is what is it that makes this so well suited for you, or you so well suited for it? [01:07:28] Merlin: And I had mentioned lateral thinking. So how did this start? It started off, this is just how my stupid fucking brain works. I think it started off as I wanted, I’ve got these, it starts out so boring, but it gets so good. I’ve got, um, what are called Nanoleaf lights. Most people, if you’ve ever seen those hexagons in douchey YouTube videos, but they do all kinds of lights. [01:07:46] Merlin: And, but the connectors for these things are garbage. Like so many of those kinds of like where you get the little belt with the connectors and you can cut them to fit and like light strips. And my light strips would always pull out. of the dingus that connects them to the electric. Long story [01:08:00] short, I basically just gone in and said like, what are some of my options for dealing with this? [01:08:04] Merlin: And I’m like, well, you could do this or blah, blah, blah. And I said, Hmm, I said, act like you’re somebody who’s very knowledgeable about HomeKit things, about home automation, and You’re somebody who does DIY stuff and isn’t allowed to avoid the warranty a little bit, something like that. Boom! It drops all this great stuff, all this crazy stuff, which is not dangerous, but one of the things was you can just hot glue it. [01:08:29] Merlin: And I’m like, fuck, of course, I can just hot glue it, that’s really easy. But then I said, okay, well now, give me a Caravaggio painting. And in the style of, of this, give me a Caravaggio painting of, of people. I said, no, first I said, now, now give it, now explain what you just said to me, but do it in a hundred words and in the voice of a 1930s hobo who refers to himself in the third person as Cletus. [01:08:52] Merlin: And it’s, and it actually did that. And it goes, Oh, Cletus got a hot tip for you. Got to be real here. You got to get that glue nice and hot. But old Cletus knows that. And I [01:09:00] was like, now make a Caravaggio painting of people. Cletus, Demonstrating this to other hobos, who are, and one of the hobos, at least one of the other hobos is eating beans out of a can. [01:09:08] Merlin: You’re with me so far. Who the fuck [01:09:09] Jeff: I [01:09:09] Merlin: this way? Raises his hand, and you, but you know, it was hilarious, it was fucking great, it did like a pretty passable fake Caravaggio, but what’s great is there was a big pile of beans on the floor, and a can next to it that said Nanoleaf. And, like, if that doesn’t make you happy, I guess that’s okay, but I was like, I mean, like, the dumbest part that I could say from all this, well, that just teaches me a little more about, like, how to ask for things. [01:09:34] Merlin: Cause I asked for beans, and it gave me beans, and it gave me a can, the can said Nanoleaf on it, because that’s what Cletus was showing people how to do with a hot glue gun. I’ll send you [01:09:42] Jeff: Yes, yes. Oh, that’s [01:09:44] Merlin: like that, okay, now that’s a pretty good example of almost all of those things. And, and, and like so many of my examples, it’ll be useless because people will go, that’s silly, I’m a normal person, why would I ever do bullshit like that? [01:09:54] Merlin: Why do you, why did you play with anything when you were a kid? Why did you ever imagine that you’re somebody whom [01:10:00] you’re not? Why did you ever imagine a world that doesn’t currently exist? I mean, I mean, I’m gonna get all bummed out. Fucking Bobby Kennedy on your ass, but Jesus Christ, like, is there nothing that you can see in that beyond the dangers that other people have told you about? [01:10:13] Merlin: I [01:10:13] Jeff: right, right. Exactly. Yeah. What about, so that’s a great example of a practical use. The other day I, I, I, [01:10:20] Merlin: know if it’s practical [01:10:22] Jeff: That’s it. No, it is. It’s [01:10:23] Merlin: definitely lateral. [01:10:24] Jeff: practical. And then becomes Cletus, which [01:10:26] Merlin: I get to show off the fact that I enjoy Caravaggio. [01:10:30] Jeff: I, um, so I restore old tools, uh, large and, and [01:10:35] Merlin: You’re an old tool. [01:10:37] Jeff: I’m an old tool. Um, and, [01:10:39] Merlin: You know, like one of those YouTubers? [01:10:41] Jeff: yeah, like one of those [01:10:42] Merlin: Like you’ll turn a cheese board into like a modern thing or make a pinball [01:10:46] Jeff: No, no, it’s, it’s more like, it’s the [01:10:48] Merlin: Restoring like an old hammer or [01:10:50] Jeff: see a picture of a terribly rusty power tool, uh, from the forties, [01:10:54] Merlin: love it. [01:10:55] Jeff: You know, and then you, so I, over the summer, I experimented, we talked just a little bit about this. [01:10:59] Jeff: I [01:11:00] experimented with rust removal, just all these different ways of rust removal. And I realized [01:11:04] Merlin: Now you’re speaking my love [01:11:06] Jeff: was holding all this shit in my head. And so I went to ChatGPT and I, and I said, help me create a decision tree for rust removal strategies because I realized I was, I was coming, sometimes I was, I was kind of jumping a little too [01:11:20] Merlin: But notice what you did. I’m sorry to interrupt, but you didn’t, you didn’t say, How do I use this remover? Or like, Find the ba ba ba ba Coke machine. Right? [01:11:30] Jeff: Yeah, [01:11:31] Merlin: I want to show me the work. [01:11:32] Jeff: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and that’s interesting, too, because it is weird to jump like yesterday I was working I have this like one ton hundred year old lathe metal machining lathe that I’m rebuilding. [01:11:43] Merlin: So you can do woodturning? [01:11:45] Jeff: This is metal turning, which is even more insane. [01:11:49] Merlin: I’m gonna make one of those vases out of colored pencils. [01:11:51] Jeff: Oh, yeah. Oh, I saw you posted that. I love [01:11:53] Merlin: such an upsetting [01:11:55] Jeff: love them. I love them so much. [01:11:57] Merlin: put a root on this thing and now it’s turning. [01:12:00] Anyways, you’ve [01:12:00] Jeff: So I’m in there. I when I’m in that world in my workshop, like I, I’m not particularly drawn to my phone or my computers, because I’ve got like grease from the Coolidge administration on my hands, right? But like, actually, [01:12:14] Merlin: It’s like it’s just a way to disappear from the world. [01:12:16] Jeff: It’s a way to disappear from the world, but actually I’ve started more and more going to it to say, okay, I’ve got gear oil. [01:12:22] Jeff: Uh, what, what should not have gear oil on it? Right? Like, it’s just like shit like that, where if I was going to the forums, I would have to go through a bunch of like, why the fuck are you even looking at gear oil? Right? Like, do you even have gloves? [01:12:33] Merlin: would be an automated post that says, have you checked the FAQs? But no, absolutely, because if you treat, again, if you treat it like a Coke machine, you might be, and this is a concept I learned from John Siracusa, please put it in notes, the XY problem, where what you really, you really want Y. [01:12:48] Merlin: But you ask people for X. So like, you ask for some really complicated technical explanation for how to do something because you’re smarter than the average bear, when the real answer is just unplug it and plug it back in. Like, what is it that you [01:13:00] really want? I mean, there’s that famous story about like, you know, why do you buy a drill? [01:13:06] Merlin: You buy a drill because it puts a screw in the wall. Why do you want a screw in the wall? So I can hang up a painting. Why do you want to hang up a painting? Because looking at a painting makes me happy. So in some ways you bought a drill because you want to be happy, you just don’t know it yet. [01:13:18] Jeff: Yes. [01:13:19] Merlin: like, if you, if you think that that is an overly circuitous and not useful way to think about life, you’re probably fairly unhappy a lot of the time. [01:13:27] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [01:13:28] Merlin: Right and that’s that’s isn’t that kind of what you’re doing here though? It’s like hey You know I got this Leatherman that can do all these different things and sometimes I can even use the Leatherman for the wrong thing and sometimes That’s kind of cool. [01:13:39] Jeff: Yep. Sometimes it’s kinda cool. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Um. [01:13:45] Merlin: How are we on time? [01:13:47] Jeff: We’re good. Well, we’re at 113 for this round. I [01:13:50] Merlin: Oh, we should we should probably bounce pretty soon, right? [01:13:52] Jeff: an hour 13. Yeah, we should bounce. I have a final topic for you. Which, which sort of comes sort of [01:14:00] related to what I was saying about feeding all of my kind of life information and asking it [01:14:03] Merlin: Oh, I would love to talk about this. [01:14:06] Jeff: So, [01:14:06] Merlin: my god Well, the the memory stuff is so great, but I filled my people, people, can we assume people know what we’re talking about? [01:14:13] Jeff: well, I don’t know. Oh, the Wisdom Project. This is where [01:14:16] Merlin: So, no, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, I’d love to talk about that too, always, but, no, but like, there was an introduction to something a few months ago that’s been really a game changer for me, that could be more of a game changer, with fewer constraints, but there’s a thing called memory, where you go in and say something as simple as, my name is Merlin, I live in San Francisco, and what that means is, from now on, in future threads, it’ll remember what you told it about yourself. [01:14:39] Merlin: You know, you can probably imagine all the ways this is useful. A second one might be, I really prefer Markdown. So when you give me stuff, give it to me as Markdown. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But like, I I, I put in all the information about my family, where they were born, all that kind of stuff. And then, and it was working great. [01:14:57] Merlin: And again, remember this works across threads. [01:14:59] Jeff: [01:15:00] Yeah. [01:15:00] Merlin: So this is really powerful. But then, you know what I started doing, entering all kinds of, I started taking photos of things like, you know, the information panel on my Synology or my AeroGarden. Upload that. Remember this is an AeroGarden called BigGarden. This is an AeroGarden called OldGarden. [01:15:14] Merlin: Now remember that on this day I changed the water and added plant food. Remember, remember, remember all this stuff. And I was. It was fucking incredible. I would put my entire life into this thing if I could, but after a week or so, it said meh, your memory’s full. So I had to start deleting stuff. But what you’re describing, once you start dipping a toe into that, you think shit’s integrated now, just you wait until it actually knows what your life is like. [01:15:39] Jeff: Yeah, it’s funny. I have not ever used that memory function. I mean, I [01:15:43] Merlin: Have you ever seen updating memory, where it goes, like, you say something, maybe, for example, with your tickets, I would bet you Dimes the Donuts that it says updating memory because it’s remembering that you were at that replacement show or whatever. [01:15:55] Jeff: So it’s, so you’re saying this memory function, which somehow I don’t, I’m not even aware of is something that[01:16:00] [01:16:00] Merlin: Do you have it open right now? [01:16:01] Jeff: Yeah, I have ChatGPT [01:16:02] Merlin: Okay, uh, you have the app on your Mac? [01:16:04] Jeff: Ah, yes, I [01:16:05] Merlin: Okay, command, comma, and go down to personalization. [01:16:10] Jeff: Mm hmm. Is this like what you did for Joe Walsh? Oh, that was in the, that was in the part of the recording that got, but we’re just [01:16:17] Merlin: the last year of Rocky Mountain away. Um, if you look under manage memory, you’ll see all the things that it remembers about you. [01:16:23] Jeff: Oh shit. [01:16:25] Merlin: So my first one is, uh, [01:16:28] Jeff: It’s using Hover as their domain registrar. Okay. You can let that [01:16:31] Merlin: about my mom. Merlin is feeling kind of tired today. And remember, Merlin prefers shorter responses. Here’s where Madeline was born. Merlin’s son, Billy, is a little reluctant and doesn’t like technology. That’s because I stuck the phone in Billy’s face with advanced voice mode on. And I said, Oh, don’t worry about Billy. [01:16:48] Merlin: He’s just a little reluctant. It doesn’t like technology. Well, it remembered that. imagine this filled with, Oh, here’s my two synologies. Here’s what the serial number is. Imagine that, you know, that, that, that, that folder I’ve got on [01:17:00] iCloud with hundreds or dozens of manuals. How far away are we from me just dropping that or not even needing to drop that in? [01:17:08] Merlin: Like, you know what I’m saying? Like, but this, having it remember all of these different things is ridiculously, I haven’t remembered my. Again, think about my garden, or think about my 3D printer, or you could think about your automobile. If you’re an automobile person. When did I buy this automobile, how many miles are on it, when’s the last time I was checking it? [01:17:25] Merlin: Like, this is the dream. It’s like, in the same way that I have this dream for this bike log idea for Apple products, I also have this dream over here of like, I just want to like, start talking and have it remember and integrate things, have it be my outboard brain, and if all that information about your, not even your quote, your life, but like, have you ever wanted to make a timeline? [01:17:45] Merlin: I’ve always wanted to make a Full Timeline of my life in Excel. Where I lived, for how long, who my housemates were, like, when did that person leave and get replaced by this one? Like, I don’t know why, that’s just something I’ve [01:17:56] Jeff: I have, I have a spreadsheet. I’ve lived in 38 places[01:18:00] [01:18:00] Merlin: when I was in college, I would move four times a year in [01:18:02] Jeff: Every, every single place I lived, who I lived with, if it was my mom, she had a friend [01:18:06] Merlin: And don’t you want to kind of see that? Now, [01:18:08] Jeff: Oh, [01:18:08] Merlin: system where that all just gets remembered, and it says, oh, this is kind of like that thing Richard said one time. And you’re like, [01:18:13] Jeff: Oh, you were in Chicago at this point, [01:18:15] Merlin: Right, but that, that memory part, and it sounds like you were not expressly aware of it. And by the way, this will don’t, so use this in 4. [01:18:22] Merlin: 0. Not in the new one. The new one does not do well with [01:18:26] Jeff: add things myself, [01:18:28] Merlin: hell yeah. Here, try this. Just open a new 4. 0, right? Like an old one. Um, and just say, remember that my favorite fruit is apples, or whatever. You can also add them manually in those lines, but that’s the easiest way. It’s just as you’re going. [01:18:44] Merlin: Or like, remember I changed the water in this thing today. [01:18:47] Jeff: Okay. Okay. Got it. Yeah. [01:18:50] Merlin: And now, now, now, why is that useful? Well, that. That’s it. So I, when I was doing that dumb demos of the worst, and I say, I go up to Madeline and I’m like, uh, can I introduce you to my wife, Madeline? And she [01:19:00] goes, oh, hi Madeline. Nice to meet you. And she’s like, what are you doing? Can you go? And I said, I said, uh, where was Madeline born? And she goes, Madeline was born in Providence, Rhode Island. And it’s like, she’s like, get that away from, get [01:19:10] Jeff: Wow. [01:19:10] Merlin: from me. [01:19:12] Jeff: Okay. Hold on. Let me just, there’s, there’s three bits in my memory that are cracking me up and I want to, I want to bring them out. So I had at one point asked it to make me a playlist based on whoever was the centerfold of Circus Magazine, uh, between a certain date and a certain date, [01:19:27] Merlin: Oh my, that’s already [01:19:29] Jeff: So. So this says, it is interested in creating playlists based on specific themes in historical context, such as magazine centerfolds for a [01:19:37] Merlin: Oh no, [01:19:38] Jeff: Almost, almost, almost. [01:19:40] Merlin: tweet. [01:19:41] Jeff: And then I’ve got is using vinegar and salt to derust tools and then soaking them in baking soda and water, drying, wire brushing and applying WD 40. [01:19:48] Jeff: And then I’ve got has traveled to Iraq on multiple occasions, [01:19:51] Merlin: Oh, that is so funny. This is all memory stuff. Oh my god. Let me look at mine. Merlin has an X1C printer. Merlin’s [01:20:00] tomatoes in his AeroGarden are a few inches tall. What it doesn’t say right here is that it remembers when you said that. Merlin has a special edition, The Hardest Job in the World pencil, which is a collaboration between Palomino Blackwing and CBS’s John Dickerson. Thanks, buddy! Merlin uses the app Drafts for macOS and iOS. Merlin is interested in trying different It’s so When you read it this way, it does sound kind of insane. [01:20:27] Jeff: It does. I mean, and there’s also [01:20:28] Merlin: It remembers which Milwaukee drill I have. [01:20:31] Jeff: it’s great. That’s great. Then there’s kind of stuff that seemed that’s very sort of passing, like is customizing their zprofile to include specific manpager setting that uses BAT [01:20:41] Merlin: Merlin is researching Ray Davies wife. [01:20:44] Jeff: What if the entire podcast was just just taking turns reading this [01:20:47] Merlin: It would be called a show with John Siracusa. [01:20:50] Jeff: Oh, [01:20:51] Merlin: Anyway, let me tell you the joke in four bullets. [01:20:57] Jeff: okay, let me before we are done. [01:20:59] Merlin: Merlin set up the [01:21:00] birdhouse yesterday. I wanted to see [01:21:04] Jeff: is yesterday? [01:21:06] Merlin: well, it knows, but I wanted to find out, like, I, I have another, see, these are all such disparate little scraps of paper. I have a calendar called journal. A calendar called journal where I just write down when something happened. So I changed my medication on this day, I installed the new X on this day, and if it’s stuff where like, you know, sometimes it’s stuff where it goes either under journal or environment are my two calendars. [01:21:26] Merlin: And one is like, hey, it’s been six months, change the filters in the um, in the air dingus. But why do I need that in 60 different places? And do I really want Apple to be the arbiter of all that? Couldn’t there be some kind of standardized XML style, JSON style thing where like, all my stuff just goes into a thing and then it just all learns from me? [01:21:44] Merlin: It doesn’t seem like that much to ask. They have a universal [01:21:46] Jeff: system? Do you have a oh, system, system. Do you have a system for archiving your chats, or even just like a [01:21:53] Merlin: No, it’s a huge, it’s a huge amount of my memory. [01:21:56] Jeff: thing for [01:21:57] Merlin: I get a periodic, like, when I’m downloading. And [01:22:00] some open source materials. And it’ll say like, and Downey will say like, you have 116 gigs left. I’m like, [01:22:06] Jeff: Yeah. [01:22:07] Merlin: So I go and I go to Daisy disk or I sort by, you know, whatever. And I go and I go, and it’s always my directory, my tilde slash application support slash, Wait, sorry, slash library, slash application, slash, like, MESSAGES. [01:22:21] Merlin: Whoa. Cause I keep the attachments too! I need [01:22:24] Jeff: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. You need it for [01:22:25] Merlin: No, I should, I should do that. If I lost it, it would be fine. But it’s just a weird PAC GRAD compulsion I have. [01:22:32] Jeff: I’ve started doing this thing where if it’s something I want to remember, actually, the last thing I ask in the thread is summarize succinctly in a bulleted list, what I have asked of you in this thing. And I have a notes file where it’s just like the, the link to that chat. And then that [01:22:47] Merlin: You’re kidding me! I, I sometimes will also do it to, sometimes I, occasionally I’ve done this to cheat, but more often just cause it’s, it’s like we’ll go through a whole long thing and I’ll be like, uh, give me a 100 word prompt for how I would ask [01:23:00] for this. Again, or something. Like, like when it’s being a dick about like, I can’t make you a Caravaggio painting, or like, I can’t make a David Hockney painting, or whatever, and you’re like, describe the work of David Hockney. [01:23:10] Merlin: There’s David Hockney, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I just copy and paste that, take out the first part of the sentence, and drop it in, and it’ll give me what I want. [01:23:16] Jeff: yes, yes. Right, right. [01:23:19] Merlin: by obscurity, or lessons by sessions, or something. I don’t know. Who needs a name? Sorry. [01:23:26] Jeff: Um, [01:23:26] Merlin: you know, though! Now you know about memory! [01:23:28] Merlin: But like I say, I don’t know if you understood what I said, but I don’t think it’s working with oh one preview. So try it with 4.0 4.0 and all the other ones and you’ll be fine. [01:23:37] Jeff: Okay, sounds good. [01:23:38] Merlin: ’cause like you can’t, you also can’t upload images to oh [01:23:40] Jeff: No, it’s just driving me [01:23:42] Merlin: it won’t make you 3D prints. It’s got a weird knowledge [01:23:45] Jeff: I, I promise, this is the last thing I’ll say, and then I want to ask you about the Wisdom Project, very specific question, I want to, um, but I am, so I’m going to the UN archives in November, I’m spending like a week there, because [01:23:58] Merlin: As in the United Nations. [01:23:59] Jeff: I [01:24:00] have this project I’ve been doing for 10 years on and off where I’m, [01:24:03] Merlin: You should read the power broker on the plane. He had a big role in, [01:24:06] Jeff: give it a shot [01:24:07] Merlin: wouldn’t really even have West Side story if it, if it wasn’t for Robert Moses. [01:24:10] Jeff: oh my God, I just, sorry, this is [01:24:12] Merlin: Talk about, no, that’s lateral. That’s lateral. Realizing the West Side Story is a movie about Robert [01:24:17] Jeff: And, and I’m going to continue this, uh, and you’ll see why in a second. So I went, hold on, now you got, so you fucking got me trapped in a net. Uh, I grabbed, I grabbed a, uh, issue of Punk Planet, uh, that we did, um, in 2005 about podcasting called The End of Radio and, um, and I opened it up. [01:24:35] Jeff: This is, I’m going from the power broker [01:24:36] Merlin: yeah, yeah. [01:24:37] Jeff: Uh, I wrote sort of the main feature line, then we had a bunch of interviews. Who does the interview with something called Neighborhood Public Radio? Fucking Roman Mars. Just like 2005 in a, in a feature package about what the fuck is this new thing that we [01:24:51] Merlin: Was he living in, oh, was he in Oakland at the time? I didn’t, I don’t think of him as a punk rock guy. [01:24:56] Jeff: he was in Chicago and he wrote with, he wrote for Punk Planet here and [01:24:59] Merlin: [01:25:00] You’re kidding me. [01:25:00] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And, but [01:25:02] Merlin: you listened to that podcast yet? [01:25:03] Jeff: Oh my God. I can’t. You know what my problem is Merlin? Is that I’ve been wanting to read The Power Broker forever and I cannot [01:25:09] Merlin: There’s only one chapter in the book where you should stop and read the chapter, and it’s a late episode. Well, there are people that I know who would disagree. [01:25:16] Jeff: Yeah. [01:25:17] Merlin: But there’s, there’s one called R. M. late in the book where it’s worth, because it’s the most, they, they both say, and other people agree, it’s the pivotal chapter in the book. [01:25:25] Merlin: It’s like in the 30s. It’s a very late chapter. That’s so cool! I have a photo of me with Roman Mars. [01:25:30] Jeff: That’s [01:25:31] Merlin: I met him at, I was a, oh my god, I’m not even gonna say it because people will look it up. I was a guest on Political Gab Fest once and it went [01:25:39] Jeff: I know you were. I [01:25:40] Merlin: I did some, but I wasn’t, it’s not my, it’s not [01:25:41] Jeff: was the, it was the, was it, it wasn’t a conundrum show. [01:25:44] Merlin: No, it was a live show [01:25:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:25:47] Merlin: friend asked me to be on and I met them and I didn’t do very well. Here’s a picture of me and Roman Mars, I’ll send you that. [01:25:54] Jeff: Sounds good. Um, [01:25:55] Merlin: We both, it’s so funny, my kid has identified a type. This really, really came to the [01:26:00] fore when my kid and I went to see The Flophouse a few months ago live. [01:26:03] Merlin: And there’s a line for question askers to, like, come up and, you know, ask a question. And Billy’s, like, just, because we, we got really good tickets. We got in the front row and, um, we were, like, right by Dan. It was exciting. And, um, in the shadow of Dan. But Billy looks at the line of people waiting to ask a question to the Flophouse podcast people and he goes, every one of those people looks like one of your friends. And I said, I said, that’s what they all look like. I said, Billy, I bet every one of those people has a podcast. Hey. Because we, we are, we are a type. [01:26:36] Jeff: Oh yeah, completely. [01:26:37] Merlin: I just send you my stuff, text me, so I can talk to you like a person. Anyways, um, before we get to the wisdom document, you’re going to the UN. [01:26:46] Jeff: I’m going, thank you. I have been working on a project on and off, uh, which is basically telling the story of a single day in Gaza in 1956 after the Israelis had invaded and occupied it in order to clear out [01:27:00] the fedayeen that were living among the, it’s a very familiar, Story. Um, but for reasons I won’t get into here at this point, uh, I am focused on this specific day. [01:27:09] Jeff: I’m looking for a specific list of the dead, and I have identified sort of a chain of possession, um, and have identified kind of the 25 boxes that might have this at the UN Archives, right? Um, but I also [01:27:23] Merlin: this is exciting. [01:27:24] Jeff: But I also had found, um, reference to these documents that are like verbatim minutes that are really relevant to what I was trying to do among the Secretary General and a few other people in 1956. [01:27:35] Jeff: And so when the archives sent them to me, I opened them up, and the words, the words [01:27:40] Merlin: Who’s the Secretary General in 56? Is that Dag Hammershulge? [01:27:44] Jeff: yeah, [01:27:45] Merlin: was the guy forever, right? [01:27:46] Jeff: oh, yeah, Forever, good guy, uh, I mean, I, you know, I never met him. Uh, but, so, okay, so, the, the, this very important, like, previously strictly confidential verbatim meeting notes from 1956 I think are very important to what I’m [01:28:00] doing, but the, the text is so fuzzy that I can’t read it. [01:28:03] Jeff: I write back, I’m like, is there any chance you have some better, no, that’s all we have, and I couldn’t do it. But I put it in, I tried to OCR [01:28:09] Merlin: this like that Dell commercial with the [01:28:12] Jeff: So I took, I don’t know what that is, but I took a [01:28:14] Merlin: Was it able to figure it out for you? [01:28:16] Jeff: took a screenshot, I put it into ChatGPT, I said transcribe this for me, and it was perfect because I could then go back and kind of [01:28:23] Merlin: Isn’t that awesome and upsetting at the same time? [01:28:26] Jeff: And so now this invisible [01:28:28] Merlin: It’s better than you, Jeff. It’s better than [01:28:30] Jeff: Or better than me, it’s way better than me. I mean, that’s [01:28:32] Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s just something you live with, yeah. [01:28:34] Jeff: to me all the [01:28:35] Merlin: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. [01:28:36] The Wisdom Project [01:28:36] Jeff: All right, Wisdom Project. So give me the, just for the listeners, describe the Wisdom Project as briefly as you want. [01:28:45] Merlin: Well, with some projects, uh, um, the way I remember it, and this may not be right, I’m so glad the train’s back, it started out as a challenge on Dubai Friday, which was to use, um, what’s that app? Alex’s Gay Bones for Obsidian. It might have started with that, to use the Obsidian app, and it’s a text based app, [01:29:00] and it’s really cool. [01:29:00] Merlin: But anyway, I, and, and, and. I don’t know. And I’m going, I’m going something with Alex and me. Um, I really, I’m very into the buildings and Alex is obsessed with the scaffolding. Sometimes I’m not sure what Alex makes with all of their tools, but I’m very into the what you can make with it stuff. That’s my, I really love, I mean I like the stuff too, but I was like, Oh actually this kind of dovetails with an idea I’ve had for a while, which is like, to start writing down, The point is, the Wisdom Project is to write down, uh, stuff it took me too long to learn in life that I would consider good advice that is just hard one and the part that gets missed in this is it’s not me necessarily haranguing strangers about how to act, it’s more of like, here’s stuff it took me too long to realize, sometimes very painfully, um, and it’s, uh, you know, just a bunch of those, like 500 some bullets, um, And then, you know, part of the reason it continues to be successful for me is that I’ve never tried to do anything with it. [01:29:57] Merlin: I, I’ve only ever just added a new bullet [01:30:00] and the occasional horizontal rule for visual interest. But, uh, you know, I’ll sometimes tweak previous things. I’ll add more bullets to the beginning. I’ll work on, but like I deliberately have avoided turning it into anything because I love that it’s, it’s just a, now it’s a repo. [01:30:15] Merlin: For the longest time, the problem is with a repo you can turn off comments, you can’t turn off comments on a, on a gist, so I had to make it a repo. Actually, you may not be aware, the bowling balls were actually invented in Shut up, shut [01:30:26] Jeff: Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:30:27] Merlin: So anyway, and that’s what I do, and so, um, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s done as it is, the whole idea was just to like, have that be a thing, and, um, that’s the wisdom, I’m very proud of it. [01:30:35] Merlin: Um, because I can like, you know, it’s like St. Crispin’s Day, which is around this time of year. I can strip my sleeve and show my scars and say that I was there that fought upon St. Crispin’s Day. These are all the things that were, these are a lot of the things that were difficult for me. It’s a fun writing exercise. [01:30:49] Merlin: I love to write. I love to write in this style and um, I like wordplay and so it’s one of those things where you could, it could be just a bathroom book. It could be, it’s pretty deep in a lot of [01:31:00] ways if you actually read it though. [01:31:01] Jeff: Well, and that’s, okay. So that gets me to my question about it. So I’ve, I’ve listened to you on your podcast for a very, very long time. And, and I know that this kind of warmth and, and, and wisdom and thoughtfulness is something that arises in all of those podcasts. I have observed, maybe with the exception of Back to Work, that, and I hope it’s okay for me to say this. [01:31:22] Jeff: I have observed that there, there are times in some of those other podcasts, less so with Alex I would say, where when you get into the mode that is represented by the Wisdom Project, you can kind of ricochet off of it quickly. Um, no one is interested in this, I don’t, you know, that kind of thing, right? [01:31:37] Jeff: Which is all fine, [01:31:38] Merlin: It’s a it’s a lot to ask of [01:31:39] Jeff: you’re in these, [01:31:40] Merlin: It really is It’s a lot to ask people to even like even consider like looking at it And also it’s just like this is this is such a thing where a guy gets old and then has a vanity press book A memoir or something and it’s like but the thing is I I don’t know. [01:31:55] Merlin: I I yeah, I do bounce off it pretty fast I’m not embarrassed of it. I’m deeply proud of [01:32:00] it It’s just I can’t find people who are as into that stuff as I [01:32:02] Jeff: no, I think you’re [01:32:03] Merlin: but it won’t stop me [01:32:04] Jeff: the sense it’s context. So here’s, here’s what I, I loved so much when this came out was that this is a part of you I love when you go into this in any podcast, I’m always that [01:32:15] Merlin: You mean like when I’m when I’m when I’m nice and I’m sincere and I’m [01:32:18] Jeff: no, I love it all, [01:32:19] Merlin: how I actually am in life? [01:32:21] Jeff: No, I love it all. [01:32:22] Jeff: Um, but the point [01:32:23] Merlin: sound, fart sound. [01:32:24] Jeff: Not knowing you, I, when I read that, I thought, this is interesting. Something, something worked for Merlin that Merlin felt like he could not only do this thing, but call it the Wisdom Project and, and, and live with it and live around it, talk about it, reference it all the time, which I think is really amazing. [01:32:43] Jeff: And I’m curious, and I hope I’m not being presumptuous, but when I use the example of having ChatGPT say back to me things that I kind of wasn’t allowing myself to do. to like acknowledge out loud. I’m wondering if there was something in you that had to [01:33:00] change or that at some moment where you’re like, I can do this. [01:33:02] Jeff: And here it is. And I’m going to say it. I’m going to say Wisdom Project all the time, right? Like or the document, which is how you refer to it sometimes. But was there something? Was there some [01:33:11] Merlin: a really good question. Yeah. I think it’s a I think it’s a It’s a great question for at least for me. It’s a great question that I could talk about quite a lot because There’s a, hmm, this is too big to talk about, but I think this might actually be a line in the document. Start acting like your life matters. [01:33:32] Merlin: Do you notice how I like, I really like snuck it in, like in the middle of something else? If I made that first, nobody would keep reading. [01:33:38] Jeff: right, right, right. [01:33:39] Merlin: The first, the first one is, uh, sometimes an email is just a way to say I love you. Because you can read that in several ways and most people will not fully understand because they, Have no time to think about these things. [01:33:50] Merlin: Sometimes an email is just a way to say I love you. Okay, cool. Thanks. What’s the next one? Okay, but like, did you ever really think about that? Like when you get annoyed in an email? Did you ever really think that maybe that’s somebody saying I love you, [01:34:00] just in a way you hadn’t expected? Oh, okay, whatever. [01:34:03] Merlin: Yeah, but like, did you really think about it? Because did you ever, did you ever think about how sometimes you write emails to people because you love them? And maybe there’s a different way you could choose. There’s so many ways you can look at, and to me anyway, the reason I found all these things so absorbing, it’s not my wisdom, it’s what the world had to fucking show me. [01:34:18] Merlin: I just made it into words that are readable for people who can fucking read. It’s, in some ways, it’s kind of like the culmination of anything like A Life’s Work that I’ve ever had, um, in, in a weird way, and it’s, it’s so close to who I would like to be that it gets difficult sometimes. [01:34:37] Jeff: Yeah. [01:34:38] Merlin: because it is very vulnerable, and it’s not, it’s not all just fart jokes. [01:34:41] Merlin: I mean, there’s some jokes in there. For people who can actually fucking read, you’ll see a couple references to I Think You Should Leave that most people wouldn’t notice. There’s several little things like that. You can use too small a [01:34:51] Jeff: No, I can’t drive! [01:34:53] Merlin: can’t drive! [01:34:55] Jeff: Not everybody can do everything! Sorry, sorry, [01:34:57] Merlin: you’ve got the mud pie, and then you use too small a slice.[01:35:00] [01:35:00] Jeff: sorry, go ahead. [01:35:01] Merlin: But, just, don’t, don’t touch the receipt! Um, no, but like, um, it takes, This is, boy, this is, Jeff, this is the most important moment in the entire history of podcasting for me, because it all comes together in this one thing. This is the chicken problem. This is the wisdom document. This is so many of these different fucking things where It can be very, the things, the things that make you who you think you are, the things that you treasure, all these different things, very difficult to talk about with people. [01:35:34] Merlin: It’s the ultimate kind of vulnerability in some ways. And but it also takes a lot of, um, you have to believe that your life is worth living on some level. I’m not, I don’t mean that as a pep talk or as a, like, cheerleading or anything. But like, you also, but like, and then the ultimate temerity is to say that the things that I think are worth writing down and the things I write down are worth editing. [01:35:56] Merlin: The things that I think are worth editing are worth collecting. [01:36:00] The things that I think are worth collecting are worth going back to and improving. The things that are worth improving are worth sharing. There’s this cascade of apparent self involvement that is instead the thing that I would wish upon every person, which is that you care very intensely about the things that matter a lot to you. [01:36:16] Merlin: And then you spend less time feeling distracted. By the things that you really know in your heart are not the good things in life and this, this, that could be that essay better that I read. That could be, there’s all kinds of different ways you can look at this, at least from my POV and the way that it’s received is something I’m touchy about because it’s a lot to say to somebody to like, oh yeah, that guy who just couldn’t be bothered to update his blog anymore is writing self-help again. [01:36:42] Merlin: It’s like, well, don’t. But I don’t mean it that way. The first bullet in the list is the true one that mustn’t be missed. I hope you read it as a fun, breezy thing that makes me sound like a confident person who’s read a lot of Kurt Vonnegut. I hope you enjoy that. I really super do. And there are some things in there where like, but like, the, what it took me to put those words [01:37:00] together in that order took so much more work. [01:37:03] Merlin: Personal effort, and it wasn’t personal effort this month, it wasn’t even that much personal effort last year, it was personal effort when I was 11 and couldn’t figure out why girls weren’t nicer to me. Like, I could place almost every single one of these things, from the most trivial, like, kind of like put your keys in a bowl shit, life hack stuff. [01:37:29] Merlin: All the way down to my favorite one, which is about what it means when you have a kid and the kid changes. That’s my favorite one on the list, which I will look for right now. But it’s um, I feel very vulnerable about it. I don’t, touchy’s the wrong word for it, but I, I do love it a lot. What I don’t apologize for is that the project exists and I love doing it, and that it will never be done. [01:37:50] Merlin: The whole point of this is that this be an ongoing thing. I mean if I only ever, if I never add another one, I mean, God, go, go get it. You can go make it in EPUB. It’s easy enough. Um, But, it [01:38:00] means a lot to me and I don’t really have a way to talk about that stuff because it’s not on brand for my usual stuff. [01:38:06] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Oh, it’s beautiful. I love it. And I, [01:38:09] Merlin: Do you? Well, what, what, what are the other ones you like? [01:38:13] Jeff: Oh my god, what are the ones I like? I’d have to pull it up. I’ve read them aloud to my wife at [01:38:17] Merlin: I think, I think it’s useful and there’s a thing I’ve always done when I’m editing. Or I don’t know, is there a better word than that when I’m rewriting, another way to put it, if you don’t like the word editing? Um, which is like I, I, [01:38:27] Jeff: word for me. [01:38:28] Merlin: Well, like when I record songs, I always listen all the way through, from the beginning to the end. [01:38:31] Merlin: Sometimes I’ll stop and go back, but I always end up going back to the beginning. Like, if, and this is why it really helps to like the things that you write. If you don’t like the things you write, you’re probably not going to become a very good writer, but you’ll get to walk around and go like, oh, of course, I never look at my own stuff. [01:38:44] Merlin: Well, wow, it must suck. I laugh at my own jokes all the time, that’s how I know they’re good. Can I read you my favorite one? [01:38:49] Jeff: Yep, [01:38:50] Merlin: Your kids are not little versions of you. They’re little versions of themselves. So don’t be sad or alarmed whenever they are becoming something different from you. Because they will become [01:39:00] lots of things that are different from you, and that’s arguably the whole point. [01:39:04] Merlin: It is inarguably a thing that you need to cheerfully celebrate and support. [01:39:08] Jeff: Oh, it’s [01:39:09] Merlin: Now, why did I say that? Because I grew up, everybody grew up, I think, implicitly believing that a little, every kid is a little version of their parents. Oh, that’s, that’s real deep, man. Yeah, but did you really fucking think about it? [01:39:22] Merlin: Did you ever think about how much shit you’ve had to carry around your entire life? Maybe not because of your parents, certainly because of your parents, but maybe just because of other people who had these expectations that you’re a little version of your parents. You have the same values with them. [01:39:33] Merlin: You have the same concerns, the same anxieties, the same aspirations. You’re a little version of your parents and you’re doing it wrong. What if you accepted from the beginning that a baby’s just a cute pre adult and it’s your job to get the fuck out of the way and help them become the person that they are? [01:39:51] Merlin: That they are, or the person that they need to become, or sometimes, admittedly, the person they need to not be anymore, and you need to help when you can, but you need to stay out of [01:40:00] the way, and one way of staying out of the way is to stop looking at them as little versions of you. Because do you want, are you a little version of your dad? [01:40:07] Merlin: Are you a little version of your mom? How do you feel about that? [01:40:09] Jeff: Yeah. [01:40:10] Merlin: It’s very inhumane, and like, I love that one though, because that’s one of the ones where like, there’s so many levels to that for me. Cause, no matter what the situation, kids are full of surprises. Some kids are full of more surprises than others. [01:40:23] Jeff: But [01:40:23] Merlin: And that’s the greatest thing in the world to me, I wouldn’t trade a single piece of it. And getting to the point where I could type that, rewrite it, and get it to where it’s my favorite one in here, represents a lot of progression from where I was in Cincinnati in say 1975. [01:40:36] Jeff: Yeah. [01:40:37] Merlin: It means a lot to me, Jeff. It honestly does. [01:40:39] Merlin: I have nowhere to discuss it, but it means a lot to me. [01:40:41] Jeff: Yeah, I know. That’s great. I love it. I’m scanning through it now and it’s just like, yeah, it’s, and I did wonder, I mean, how much time or how much it took to order it, [01:40:50] Merlin: That’s the beauty. Well, I very, sometimes I’ll change them because you can’t have two that are too close together. There’s some business, as we say in programming, some business logic to how I would want to turn this into something more [01:41:00] automatable. But if there’s anything that’s made this successful, it’s the fact that I have not been distracted by saying, I wonder if I should put this in Describener or, [01:41:08] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:41:10] Merlin: or, or SQLite or whatever. [01:41:12] Merlin: It’s like, if somebody else wants to build something that’ll turn this into like an EPUB, I mean, I’ve done, You can go look at the source code. If you go into the repo, you can find where I’ve had automation stuff inside of VS Code to generate EPUBs. But my near term goal is to have this generate an EPUB every time there’s an update so people could always get, but I don’t know how to do that and I don’t want to learn how to do that. [01:41:34] Merlin: I could learn to do that, but maybe this needs to go in the document, Jeff, is like the document exists because I stopped trying to do other shit with it. Which gets to you another point of wisdom, which is like, [01:41:44] Jeff: God, that’s its own. Yeah. [01:41:46] Merlin: do better. People tend to screw up their next thing because they’re not paying careful attention to their current thing. [01:41:52] Merlin: Yeah. Ask me how I know that, like how I’ve learned that 60 different ways and I still follow [01:42:00] shiny objects when I get to the difficult part of a project, unless I catch myself and I go, remember you wrote that thing down? You know how to do this once your party’s been seated. Always order a large pepperoni pizza for the table. [01:42:11] Jeff: John Roderick. [01:42:12] Merlin: Roderick. Sometimes [01:42:15] Jeff: piece of wisdom. Very practical. [01:42:17] Merlin: have a good run. I like this one. Throw out all shitty scissors. Bring [01:42:21] Jeff: Oh, I was just going to read that one to you. [01:42:23] Merlin: Well, what do you do? Well, right here, you might have heard this during this. This is a Japanese company called Kai, K A I. And they make, I learned about this from Marco, they’re the deadliest, sharpest scissors in the world, and you will, you will personally mangle every, you will destroy, with extreme prejudice, every other pair of scissors you’ve got. [01:42:41] Merlin: You only need one good pair. Um, let’s see, bring in your neighbor’s trash cans. Talk to your pets and remind them that they’re not so bad, considering. Close the door behind you. Except, always hold the door. Say, I thank you, and mean it. Try to fix more things than you break, and calm your mind. Everybody’s doing, people hate this one, everybody’s [01:43:00] doing the best they can each day, even though what they can do is rarely enough. [01:43:03] Jeff: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Well, it’s a great project, [01:43:07] Merlin: Thank you, man, and thank you, thank you for having me on your program. [01:43:09] Jeff: Thank you for doing this, Merlin. It’s been really fantastic. Goodbye, everybody. Get some sleep. [01:43:14] Let us break for a sponsor read. There are probably a hundred different ways to blog, and Pika is a fast, affordable, and elegant way to create your own place on the web. But why did the team build it when there are so many other options? Well, in the words of one of the creators, Barry Hess, Static site generators are too fiddly. [01:43:35] Cool platforms like micro. blog can be hard to grok. And building out a site template for platforms like Hugo just wasn’t of interest. So they built Pika to solve their own problem and made it something they could offer to the public as another option for easily creating your space on the web. So, if you want to start a blog quickly and easily, you have to check out Pika. [01:43:57] And I can say, I tested it, I think I said this the [01:44:00] last time we had Pika on as a sponsor. Thank you, Pika. 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Join Christina, Brett, and Jeff as they embark on a chaotic journey exploring everything from Marjorie Taylor Greene’s concerning weather tweets to Asheville’s artsy past drowning in climate disaster. Dive into debates over Joker 2, Deadpool’s wacky showdown with Wolverine, and ponder corporate charity tactics. Christina’s Waymo love affair, Jeff’s garage guru tales, and despair over old-school Marvel flicks. Add a sprinkle of WordPress scandal, a walkthrough of the PropEdit plist wizardry, plus some cheeky banter about sleep, weather, and world takeover plans. What an epic ride! Sponsor Blogging is making a comeback and Pika is a great way to get a blog online fast. Visit pika.page/overtired now to give yourself a chance to experience the personal internet as it was meant to be. Enter coupon code OVERTIRED20 to get 20% off your first year of Pika Pro. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Greetings 00:44 Weather and Asheville Crisis Discussion 07:06 Mental Health Check-In 26:14 Sponsor: Pika 28:57 On Dick Drawings 30:39 Blogging and Personal Writing Reflections 34:20 Cybertruck and Twitter Musings 36:03 Waymo: The Future of Self-Driving Cars 39:02 The Challenges of Human Drivers 42:23 The Debate on Electric Vehicles 45:34 WordPress Drama Unfolds 52:14 The Impact of Open Source Contributions 58:58 grAPPtitude Show Links S-Tier Face (Overtired 418) Playlist Hit Charade: Lou Pearlman The Boy Band Con – YouTube Original Dirty Pop: Netflix US officials want to know why Islamists love Toyotas The WordPress/WP Engine Explained Cybertruck PRNDL Name Mangler You Need a Budget PropEdit Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript ISIS Pickup Lines [00:00:00] Introduction and Greetings [00:00:00] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. That’s right. We’re back with another episode. I’m Christina Warren joined as always by Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severins Gunzel. How’s it going guys? [00:00:15] Brett: Really good. [00:00:16] Jeff: Good. [00:00:16] Brett: It’s like Sunday. Hey Jeff, thanks that last episode with Merlin, that was great. [00:00:21] Christina: That was [00:00:21] Jeff: You’re very, very welcome. It was very fun. We, we, I made a Spotify playlist because so many songs were either mentioned or sung and it was a total of 36 songs. [00:00:31] Brett: Oh, put, give, put that in the show notes. [00:00:34] Jeff: I will. I will. Um, yeah. All right. I’m excited to be with you. [00:00:41] Brett: Yeah, we’re all excited. [00:00:43] Jeff: Let’s do this. [00:00:44] Weather and Asheville Crisis Discussion [00:00:44] Jeff: a beautiful, I know, who wants to talk about the weather when you’re not even gonna listen to this the day we recorded it, but it is a beautiful, beautiful day out, and I have not experienced a beautiful, beautiful day, by my standards, in some time. [00:00:57] Brett: It’s like 65 degrees here, [00:01:00] what do you got? [00:01:00] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, same, same up here, up north, up north on the Mississippi. [00:01:04] Brett: Meanwhile, holy shit, have you guys seen videos out of like Asheville? [00:01:08] Christina: I about to say, I was like, of whether it’s awful and like there’s, it sucks. Um, I, I know some people there are kind of in that area and, um, you know, I know that they’re doing their best to get. Uh, aid to the region and all that, but Jesus Christ, like it is just really, really bad. [00:01:30] Brett: I sent multiple hundreds of dollars to a mutual aid fund, uh, that was going directly to people on the ground. [00:01:38] Christina: Yeah, I, I did too. Um, I used, um, what was it? Samaritan’s Purse because I’ve, I’ve heard from people on the ground that they are actually going out there and getting stuff directly to people. Um, so it’s, it’s hard to vet those organizations, but, but it was important for me to find one that’s like, if you can anyway, that’s, you know, 5013C because then you could do employer matching. [00:02:00] So, so [00:02:00] Brett: Oh yeah, I should, I should do that. I should, cause I bet you Oracle has a, [00:02:05] Christina: I’m sure they [00:02:06] Brett: something, cause they have like a whole search engine for like things you can donate to that they’ll match. [00:02:10] Christina: Exactly. It’s probably Benevity. That’s what most of the corporations use, but [00:02:14] Brett: I will, I will double up. I will gladly donate it again. [00:02:18] Christina: Yeah, that’s what I did. I, I, well, yeah, all, all you usually have to do is like find your receipt and they’ll match. Um, I actually donated weirdly. I usually go directly through the site, but in this case, like I went through the portal because I gave them 500 bucks and I was like, you know what? [00:02:33] Take it out of my paycheck because it’ll also count for me. Cause like, this is our giving month, like October. And I [00:02:37] Brett: Oh yeah. [00:02:38] Christina: I was like, perfect timing, but this way it’ll, you know, whatever. And then, um, you know, so basically I was able to give them a thousand dollars, which is great. My favorite is when, and, and this is just a pro tip for anybody out there who’s ever wanting to donate to stuff. [00:02:52] If you’re a corporation, which if you work at a large place, um, There’s a, if it, at least in the United States, there’s a good [00:03:00] chance that for tax reasons, if nothing else, that they will do, you know, um, employee matches. So check into that, but obviously the size of the company that you work at, you know, not guaranteed. [00:03:10] But if you work at a place with an employee match during some giving months, which are usually like October, November, um, sometimes even December, um, some organizations will also have their own matches that will be put up by. other, you know, like benefactor, other people or whatnot. And you can like basically, essentially get a triple match out of that. [00:03:32] So like the Internet Archive and the EFF, both of them have in the past had, um, match periods where they’re like, Hey, if you donate, you know, 500 to us, we’ll We’ll get a thousand. The way that that works is that you can’t do the quadruple match where, you know, the thousand would become two, but you can have like your 500 become 500 from your employer. [00:03:55] And then also get the 500 from, you know, whoever is doing the matches. So it can go [00:04:00] 1500. So those are just pro tip out there. Be on the lookout for things like that. Cause That way you can really benefit, like, multiply the amount of money going to, um, organizations you care about. [00:04:12] Brett: This year when I was in Asheville, I, we, we started before we left, we started immediately making plans for our next trip [00:04:21] Christina: Oh, that’s right. Cause you guys were just there. [00:04:23] Brett: Yeah. Just in March or don’t know. May, I think. Um, yeah, I’m like, we’re not gonna build a C Asheville again like that for a decade. Um, it’s gonna take the arts district just completely washed away. [00:04:40] And, I mean, death count, Is horrible and seeing that much, uh, beautiful, artistic, um, like communal property just washed away is. It’s kind of devastating. [00:04:57] Christina: It’s completely devastating. And it, and it’s, [00:05:00] I don’t know, like a lot of people like to discount climate change and you know what I mean? I’m sorry. I’m like, you see things like this that happen. You’re like, yeah. Like, okay, some of this might be inevitable regardless of what we were doing to our planet, but not. [00:05:15] Yeah. Not this much, right? Like it had gone from, you know, like they’d, you know, knew a storm was coming and then it changed like so fast into, into hitting them. And then just because of where it’s located and, and how high up it is, just devastating. Just absolutely awful. [00:05:31] Brett: I have a friend who’s worried about their son, um, because after the news hit about this, he started going on about weaponized weather. [00:05:43] Jeff: Oh boy. [00:05:44] Christina: Oh, [00:05:44] Brett: was like, yeah, I’d be worried [00:05:45] Jeff: Marjorie Taylor Greene just tweeted, they can’t control the weather. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:50] Christina: Jesus. Fuck off, [00:05:51] Brett: you serious? Like for real? [00:05:53] Jeff: Yeah. [00:05:54] Brett: I thought that was a joke. Oh my [00:05:56] Christina: know if it was or not. And [00:05:58] Jeff: I thought it was serious. [00:06:00] I’ll go look it up. So, it’s true. [00:06:03] Christina: she was not joking, be very [00:06:04] Jeff: Either way, it’s true. Either way, said it. [00:06:07] Christina: yeah, to be clear, I’m sure that she was not joking, I’m saying, like, I wasn’t sure if you were joking, not, I was like, I was like, I bet he’s serious, because that does seem like the sort of insane shit she would say, [00:06:18] Jeff: Yes. [00:06:19] Brett: Is she relevant anymore? [00:06:22] Christina: I mean, she’s still a congresswoman, but, after [00:06:25] Brett: hear about her at the rate I used to. I it’s election season, all the news is diverted. [00:06:31] Christina: exactly. Like she’s definitely going to win her seat. Lauren Boebert might lose hers. Um, and, uh, you know, she’s the other crazy who got in the, the cunt fight. Um, like, like, like, like, like my turn of phrase there. [00:06:45] Jeff: Sounds [00:06:45] Brett: don’t get it. [00:06:46] Christina: Uh, because, because, um, one of them called the other one a cunt. Um, on, on, on, on the, um, on the floor of Congress. [00:06:56] Brett: This what we’ve become. [00:06:58] Christina: It really is. So yeah.[00:07:00] [00:07:01] Brett: Uh, I bet C SPAN had a blast with that. All right. [00:07:06] Mental Health Check-In [00:07:06] Brett: So, mental health check in. Um, how you guys doing? Jeff, you want to tell us how you’re doing? [00:07:12] Jeff: Um, sure. I, uh, I’m doing good. I had I spent all morning in my Workshop, which I don’t always get to do. And, um, and, uh, and I’ve been perpetually cleaning it out for years. Um, sometimes I feel like all I do is go in and move things around and don’t actually get to do projects, but, um, it’s clean enough now that I can kind of go in and I was, I started a daunting project, which is, um, sort of refurbishing a one ton, hundred year old lathe for machining metal that can’t even be moved an inch without an engine lift. [00:07:50] Christina: Jesus. [00:07:51] Jeff: and, uh, it’s a terrifying tool in the first place. And so taking it apart, in little pieces and cleaning up those pieces and putting them [00:08:00] back is a little nerve wracking to like, what will this whole thing be when it’s done? Because it is, you know, I mean, like, for people that don’t, like, here’s a way of kind of really, and I’m getting to the mental health part, but like, a lathe, a metal lathe is like a tank because it’s, it’s made to carve metal, right? [00:08:16] Like, essentially. And, and so you don’t want like, um, screws that aren’t quite right. Screwed in right when you’re carving metal. Um, but I think I trust myself. Uh, anyway, so there was a point once years ago when my wife walked into the garage workshop when I was in there and she was like, you know, there’s no other time that you are this landed. [00:08:40] And, and it is true. I like, I feel so completely landed when I am surrounded by especially old tools and, uh, and, and have an amazing local community radio station on. And I have like a two car, like a two garage door garage in my old South Minneapolis home that [00:09:00] actually faces towards the house and away from the alley. [00:09:02] So I have this like kind of compound and I can just open up these two garage doors and I have [00:09:07] Brett: How do you, [00:09:08] Jeff: Workshop in there. And it’s like, it’s unbelievable. It’s like, [00:09:11] Brett: do you get a car into that garage? [00:09:14] Jeff: we don’t put cars in the garage. Cause there’s a, there’s a one ton, a hundred year old lathe in there. Um, the thing is like, the thing is this garage is so funny. [00:09:23] Like, um, I am totally doing the Tim Allen total like thing of taking over a garage. But like. You can’t actually get a car in there, right? And so it just works out in my favor. [00:09:36] Brett: There you go. [00:09:38] Jeff: But anyway, it’s, uh, I truly, I mean, it’s like there is a, it’s better than any of my medications. I just, it’s so calming. [00:09:47] Brett: I like this term, landed. Um, [00:09:49] Jeff: I liked that term too. [00:09:52] Brett: tell me more. [00:09:53] Jeff: Um, sorry, turning [00:09:56] Brett: walked away. [00:09:56] Jeff: It’s just, you know what, I’m going to go back to workshop. [00:10:00] Um, landed like, um, just, uh, light, um, on my feet behind my eyes. Uh, and, and just, I mean, for me internally, I can’t really say exactly how it projects out and what made her say that other than what I understand about the internal feeling is like totally at peace, just like totally, totally at peace. [00:10:22] Um, and, and that’s whether I’m building something or just You know, schlubbing around. [00:10:29] Brett: Nice. Alright. [00:10:30] Jeff: yeah, it’s wonderful. And so anyway, and this is the time of year when it’s really great, because we’re just leaving the part of the year when it’s too hot to go out there and be in a garage. It’s like 90 degrees or something, and it’s insulated, so it just holds the heat usually. [00:10:43] Um, so yeah, it’s beautiful. [00:10:46] Brett: Awesome. Hey, Christina. How are you? [00:10:50] Christina: I’m pretty good. Um, I, uh, not too much to kind of update. I’ve been under the gun with some work stuff. So I’m trying to [00:11:00] kind of get a bunch of things done that way, GitHub universes in a few weeks. And so kind of coming under the gun with that. So I’m a little stressed about trying to get all my work things done, but other than that, uh, pretty good, pretty good. [00:11:11] I went to San Francisco for like a day and a, for like two days this week, um, for OpenAI’s dev day. That was pretty fun. Um, And, uh, yeah, just, oh, I saw Megalopolis, uh, which was terrible as, uh, as it’s been rumored, um, but I still think probably better, at least more fun to watch than Joker 2, not real sure, um, [00:11:34] Jeff: I’m bummed about both of these being apparently not great. [00:11:37] Christina: I mean, same, but, but, I mean, Joker 2, I think we, look, what, did, it did not need a sequel, and the fact that it got one, and, and then the fact that, like, apparently it’s a courtroom drama, mostly, which is [00:11:51] Jeff: a musical. [00:11:52] Christina: and a musical, but then the musical, it’s like, It’s like the American songbook. [00:11:56] Like, it could not be more [00:12:00] poorly aligned for its target audience and target demographic, which is, I mean, I kind of appreciate the troll in that. But anyway, I mention these things because these movies make me happy and that does help my mental health. [00:12:13] Jeff: Nice. [00:12:14] Brett: haven’t seen a good movie in a while. I feel, no, I feel like I loved the last movie I saw, but my memory is such that I don’t remember what the last movie I saw was. [00:12:25] Jeff: I had a good run, like a month ago, I watched I think five different, like, noirs from the 40s and 50s, and [00:12:31] Christina: Oh, hell yeah. I [00:12:32] Jeff: so awesome. [00:12:35] Brett: Oh, it’s like, there’s something like twinkling in my memory that I found on I don’t remember. I did, I did enjoy the Deadpool Wolverine movie. [00:12:48] Christina: did two actually. That was one that I was, um, I was not expecting to enjoy that the way that I did. Um, it was very, very funny. It was, um, the [00:13:00] music, uh, the needle drops were great. Um, it was overly indulgent, but it worked. And then what I, [00:13:05] Brett: Totally. [00:13:06] Christina: well, what I really appreciated about it and, and like, cause I, I’ve seen like all the Deadpool films now, but I didn’t realize until I watched that movie that I also, because I guess it was the 2000s and this was probably my heaviest, you know, movie going experience, especially going in the theater, because I would literally go every week, um, and sometimes multiple times a week, um, sometimes multiple times a day, um, but, um, I, I think I’ve seen basically it. [00:13:33] Every one of the Fox, you know, like, um, uh, Marvel films, um, for, for better or worse. And in most cases, let’s be very clear, it was for worse because the Fox Marvel films were not good, right? So for, for people who don’t know, those were the, the X Men series. Fox had the rights to, to those, and they had the rights to, uh, Daredevil and, uh, whatever the fucking [00:13:54] Brett: Green Lantern? Was that, was Green Lantern? Yeah.[00:14:00] [00:14:01] Christina: Ryan met and cheated on their respective partners together, and now they’re married. [00:14:06] Hey, look, you know what? No shade, because honestly that one worked out. [00:14:10] Jeff: That’s showbiz! [00:14:11] Christina: mean, look, Daredevil is where Jennifer Garner and Matt Ben Affleck met and cheated on their respective partners, or at least she cheated on hers. I don’t know if he was with anybody. And then whatever the Daredevil sequel was, which I, Elektra. [00:14:25] I don’t It was bad. Um, and, uh, not to mention, um, you know, obviously like Logan being kind of like the highlight and, um, uh, both attempts at, uh, at the Fantastic Four films, like those were all Fox. And so, um, but what was kind of great about, um, uh, Deadpool, um, uh, versus Wolverine is that in many ways, you know, it was kind of a continuation of kind of the, the Deadpool kind of trope, whatnot, but it was also like a love letter, to those Fox films, [00:14:54] Brett: Totally. [00:14:55] Christina: which I really appreciated. [00:14:57] Like the, this isn’t a spoiler for anything, but like the, the final sequence, [00:15:00] like during the credits, they like show a lot of the behind the scenes footage basically from like the year 2000, like onward of, you know, the cast and crew from those films, which is fucking crazy because you see like the mini DV fucking video that they’re using, you know, to capture the behind the scenes stuff. [00:15:16] And like, everybody looks so young and like, you know, it’s just. I don’t know. I, I, I very much appreciated that because nobody, including myself, as I just like went on a rant, gives the Fox films any love because you shouldn’t. Almost all of them are terrible. Um, but, um, it also, cause the Fox studio doesn’t exist the way that it did. [00:15:35] They now all have to be kind of Marvel fied and, or, you know, Disney fied and all that. And I thought it was really, uh, it was very nice and, and kind of classy, you know, to kind of give all those, those films, um, both in the story and then in the, you know, Post credit stuff. A wrap up. thought it was nice. [00:15:53] Brett: So, someone sent me, and it might have been one of you two, I’ve forgotten, but there was, uh, there [00:16:00] is an animator for Bob’s Burgers that is now a producer of Bob’s Burgers, but still does, like, um, fan, fan art. Uh, like animations of like the characters from Bob’s Burgers, and, and he did one that was the youngest girl, whose name I’m blanking on, um, in a, Louise. [00:16:24] Louise in a paper plate Deadpool mask doing the Backstreet Boys dance almost its entirety just like the movie. [00:16:34] Christina: It was NSYNC. It was NSYNC, [00:16:35] Brett: NSYNC, I’m so sorry. How could I ever confuse Backstreet Boys and with 98 Degrees? Like it just, how do you, [00:16:44] Christina: Well, here’s the thing. You actually [00:16:47] Degrees for either of them, but Backstreet and NSYNC absolutely make sense to confuse because literally NSYNC was created to be the backup band for Backstreet I’m not joking. They like, they like, yeah, so, so it’s the [00:17:00] same exact management team, same exact thing. [00:17:02] You start at them and then they lied to Backstreet Boys, like didn’t even let them know that they were working on this other group too. And, and then all of a sudden Backstreet Boys are burnt out and can’t do this Disney special and NSYNC are like, yeah, we’ll do it. And they become like very famous. [00:17:18] Jeff: Yes. I love [00:17:21] Christina: there, there are two great documentaries if anybody wants to get into this stuff. One is called The Boy Band Con, which I, I, I’m sorry to give him credit for this because he’s my least, well, no, that’s not true. He’s my probably third least favorite, but he’s definitely not in the top tier of favorites, but like, um, Lance Bass produced it and he actually did a good job. [00:17:37] And it’s a documentary about Lou Pearlman who, um, died, but, but he was a famous, um, purveyor of Ponzi schemes and other stuff. And it really kind of goes into. The machine and how hard all of them worked and how much, how little money they made until they, they sued him. Um, and that’s on YouTube. It was a YouTube original. [00:17:56] And then Netflix put out a three part series [00:18:00] also about Lou Perlman, which is also pretty good. And then there is a great book called The Boy Band Con, um, about Lou Perlman, um, that came out like 15 years ago. So anyway, [00:18:13] Brett: drop those in the show [00:18:14] Christina: I will. [00:18:15] Brett: cause I’ll never read those. I don’t have the attention span to care, [00:18:19] Christina: no, but it was super fascinating because the guy that created both of those bands, like, he was, until Bernie Madoff, he was the purveyor of, like, the largest Ponzi scheme history. [00:18:30] Brett: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s interesting. I, uh, I just have a backlog of nonfiction that. [00:18:35] Christina: Oh yeah, no, and I’m not saying should read it, I’m saying that this is like an actually, it’s like a notable weird kind of thing because you wouldn’t think, oh yeah, the boy band guy, You know, who, there was also some questions about, um, his, uh, sexual interest in the boys, which was not great, and some of the things that he, maybe, things there, but the, the thing that he actually went to jail for, and died in jail for, was the [00:19:00] Ponzi scheme, which was, uh, yeah, [00:19:03] Jeff: Wow. [00:19:04] Brett: I’m currently listening to an audiobook about a gay hornless unicorn and a gay wizard who’s in love with the prince who’s engaged to the chief knight and it is the bitchiest novel I’ve ever read. Red. [00:19:28] Jeff: I assume is Lord of the Rings fanfiction? Hehehe. [00:19:34] Brett: No, I really, I enjoyed, I enjoyed a book from this author and I thought, Oh, I’ll try another one. And it turned out to be just like, I picked him because he was like a queer sci fi fantasy guy. Um, and there’s not a lot of that out there. And this one just turned out to be like queer to the max. Like almost every character, there’s one, there one bisexual [00:20:00] character. [00:20:00] Christina: Well, know, I [00:20:01] Brett: Fluidly sexual character. Everyone else is just straight up [00:20:05] Christina: else is just like, sort of gay. I love that. Uh, and quick correction, the book was called The Hit Charade. BoybandCon is the documentary, but Hit Charade. Yeah, I got it in the show notes. [00:20:15] Jeff: was the unicorn born without a [00:20:17] Brett: No, it was, I haven’t, like he lost it at some point and he’s working to get it back. That’s like a subplot. [00:20:23] Jeff: okay. Okay. [00:20:24] Brett: Um, so anyway, my mental health, um, things are, things are overall pretty good. So like for almost six months, I was waking up every day at like three, 2. 30, 3 a. m. and just unable to fall back asleep. But I would go to bed early enough that that would be six to seven hours of sleep. [00:20:44] And I kind of just was existing on that. And, uh, I had a couple of. Like, runs of bad nights, but I never felt manic, not in the way that I’ve come to know mania. And, [00:21:00] um, I was just being pretty productive and waking up early and, and it lasted way long. Like my manic episodes are like three to five days long, and this was six months long. [00:21:12] And it finally crashed. Um, I, I was like, I don’t know if this is mania or not until it ended and I hit the depression and I was like, Oh, that was mania. And I’m just praying that the depression doesn’t last as long as the mania. Because I’m used to like five days of mania, then two weeks of depression and then a period of stability. [00:21:35] Um, so if I have six months of mania and then I have like two years of depression, shit’s going to go bad for me. Um, but maybe the depression will be as like, hypo as the mania was. Um, but anyway, I got passed over for even a token bonus at work. Um, and, and that feels honestly like [00:22:00] So, you should get rewarded for, for doing a good job, but you should also get a token reward for existing at the company for a year. [00:22:11] Um, and that, and you should get at least a cost of living raise. And I haven’t gotten a raise in three years, and my last bonus was piddly, but it was a token bonus. Getting nothing feels like punishment. [00:22:28] Christina: hmm. [00:22:28] Brett: It feels like they’re telling you you did a bad job. And I asked why I wasn’t getting a bonus, and they said it was because I had only been meets all expectations on my review. [00:22:42] And to [00:22:42] Jeff: Were you like, what about the point where my manager disappeared for four months? that, is that a dark, is that a dark period in reporting? [00:22:52] Brett: Oh, it was, so I got, I was annoyed. I started shopping around, um, but after a few days of [00:23:00] being just like, fuck this, I’m bummed out. I came up with like a really good idea, um, for, to like turn my job into something I actually enjoy and also get visibility. And so I wrote, I wrote a little script, almost. An app for, uh, the Docs team at work that converted their Confluence, uh, like their compendium of Confluence documentation into, uh, like GitHub ready Markdown, and they were spending, they were spending two hours per page to do this, um, and plus like JIRA ticketing and Wrike ticketing and everything. [00:23:46] And it was taking forever. And they were looking at six months. Uh, to do this current project and I wrote them a script and they’re done. Like they’re done. And, and this [00:24:00] didn’t show up on my review. Like I did this kind of after hours on kind of off hours. I did it for another team with no permission from my manager. [00:24:09] I didn’t mention it on my review. [00:24:11] Christina: shit, you should have, you still should [00:24:12] Brett: Uh, well, so I got a letter of commendation from the team that I’m going to present to my manager and definitely include in my quarterly review and, um, yeah, I, cause I, I saved the company thousands of hours. Like when you look at this total project, [00:24:30] Christina: No, save them thousands of hours, thousands of, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, you know, hundreds thousands if you really want to, you know, calculate it that way. Um, yeah, I’ve, and I say this as somebody who’s bad at, at doing my own reviews. Um, so I, but yet I can see the flaws. Um, that I make, uh, with others and encourage them otherwise. [00:24:52] Yeah, something like that, whether you got permission or not, if you’ve made that sort of impact, like that’s what review things are for. It’s for bragging about [00:25:00] yourself. Nobody will ever, [00:25:01] Brett: Well, so I [00:25:02] Christina: no manager is ever going to look at anything, no matter what they tell you. They’re never going to be like, Oh, well, you didn’t mention these things, but I know you did them. [00:25:10] And so I’m going to you [00:25:12] Brett: well, and that like my first, my first manager at Oracle told me that like, it was status quo to just rate yourself three out of five across the board and then let your manager like, uh, promote you. And that worked when I had managers that were good at promoting me. But my current team leader, we don’t even have a manager anymore, but my team leader, um, is not interested in that. [00:25:45] Um, I, I will not say anything else about him. He’s a good guy. He’s a stand up guy. Um, anyway, that’s, that’s, that’s my mental health update. We got to take a quick sponsor break. We got to squeeze this in before the [00:26:00] 30 minute mark, cause we got a note last time that 38 minutes in [00:26:06] Jeff: See, you don’t, I don’t think you should say that. I if you’re responding to [00:26:09] Brett: it. But I said it. [00:26:11] I said it. And we’re, we’re, we’re following, we’re following direction. [00:26:14] Sponsor: Pika [00:26:14] Brett: So anyway, blogging is making a comeback and Pika is a great way to get a blog online fast. Jeff can attest to this. 20 seconds from sign up to blog post. [00:26:25] Jeff: Yeah, wait, just, it was actually, it was amazing. I was like, all right, let me try this thing out before we go on. And I didn’t even mean, it wasn’t a test to see how quickly I could post, but literally within 20 seconds I had a post published. It was awesome. [00:26:38] Brett: There you go. So visit pika.page/overti. That’s pka.page/overti to get blogging. Not only is PIKA a great way to start blogging, but it’s also a great way to build a personal [email protected]. You can customize your homepage and easily add pages to your. [00:27:00] The beautiful editor is great for writing your pages as well as your blog posts. [00:27:05] And you don’t need a master’s degree to work with PICA’s simple theme and customization [00:27:10] Jeff: Wait, that’s true, because I don’t even have a high school diploma. [00:27:13] Brett: ha ha ha ha! With a PICA Pro plan, you can add an unlimited number of pages and blog posts to your site. And overtired listeners. Visit PICA. com. Pika. page slash Overtired to sign up, and if you decide to become a Pro member, enter the code Overtired20 to get 20 percent off your first year of Pika Pro. [00:27:38] Yes, 20 percent off, Pika Pro’s already reasonable price, and you get unlimited pages, blog posts, guestbook entries, and the ability to add your custom domain for a truly personal website on the internet. And this is miles more affordable than Squarespace. Oh, and you have to see this guestbook feature. [00:27:57] Guestbooks are a throwback to the, a throwback to [00:28:00] the aughts, or maybe even the 90s. Back then, people would connect by signing the guestbooks on each other’s websites. Christina remembers this. [00:28:08] Christina: Yes. [00:28:10] Brett: With Pika, not only can people write in your guestbook, but they can also draw you a picture. How cool is that? [00:28:17] I’ve looked into some of the drawings on Pika’s own guestbook and there is an impressive amount of artwork people can make with this little tool. Also surprising, uh, surprisingly few dicks. [00:28:30] Jeff: Oh, man. Okay. Oh, wait. [00:28:34] Brett: Visit PICA. PAGE. OVERTIRED, again that’s P I K A, to give yourself a chance to experience the personal internet as it was meant to be. Again, P I K A. PAGE. OVERTIRED, and remember to enter the coupon OVERTIRED20 to get 20 percent off your first year of PICA Pro. [00:28:56] Christina: Fantastic. [00:28:57] On Dick Drawings [00:28:57] Brett: us Jeff, what want to interrupt? [00:28:59] Did it have to do [00:29:00] with [00:29:00] Jeff: about blogging, and one is a penis item. Um, at the State Fair two years ago, they had the Ford F 150 Lightning, the electric F 150. And my wife, [00:29:13] Brett: better than the Cybertruck even. [00:29:17] Jeff: So my son, uh, my youngest has an amazing thing he does to Cybertrucks now. And it’s, it’s a little, it’s like, I’m a little bit like, should I let him do this? Cause he’s going to get his ass kicked. Maybe. I don’t know. Is that if he’s, if he’s on the sidewalk and a Cybertruck goes by, he just extends his arm with the thumbs down and goes, Boo! Uh, and I, I think that’s amazing. Anyway, they have like a, an app on the, like, you know, stupid computer screen in the F 150 Lightning where you can draw. And there were two boys in there that we were waiting for them to leave so we could check out the inside of this truck. Sure enough, we got in there. [00:29:53] Dickenballs, uh, it’s just like, you couldn’t, I mean, granted, it’s also an F 150. So maybe it came, maybe it just came [00:30:00] with that. Maybe that was just like the sample art, like, [00:30:03] Brett: Built in truck nuts. Digital [00:30:05] Jeff: built in truck nuts. Do you know that my dad thought he invented truck nuts? He, he did actually, without knowing about the fleshy ones, he came up with this idea of hanging giant, like nuts, like, like, uh, nuts and bolts nuts. [00:30:19] And, and he was so disappointed. Um, he also invented something that ended up being a SkyMall, uh, uh, product called, um, Crocker, which is a combination of soccer and croquet. And see, he would have never seen that. So he [00:30:32] Brett: and that’s how your family got all their money, right? [00:30:35] Jeff: how my family got all that public school teacher money. [00:30:38] Um, Yeah. Okay. [00:30:39] Blogging and Personal Writing Reflections [00:30:39] Jeff: So anyway, here’s the thing about blogging. I, that I, I recently, um, resurrected like my ghost account just because that’s what I’m trying and Pika, maybe I’ll move to Pika. We’ll see. But like I had, I’ve started blogs over the years. I’m like, Oh, I just want to blog. I want a place to write again. [00:30:56] And I’m, I’m divorced from the desire for any kind of audience. I [00:31:00] just want to write at this point. Um, but what I, what I realized is my need for blogging Now is I want to be able to point to something where I’ve written something longer. Specifically, I want to, um, I want to use, I want to just kind of like publish excerpts of things I wrote over the years and publish that I thought were fun parts of a story, but I actually don’t want to publish an entire story. [00:31:22] So as an example, I put up, I did this, cover story on the Hold Steady for City Pages, the alt weekly here in like 2007 when they were like a huge band. And I had, I had known those guys forever. We came up in the same scene and, and so it was easy to just kind of talk them into letting me follow them around for an evening or afternoon. [00:31:41] And the opening scene of the article is like the side stage before they go on at this pretty big theater. Um, and it was the first time that it was the biggest show they had ever played in Minneapolis. And a few of them were from. Here and from this scene and stuff and the crowd, like their crowds are so excited. [00:31:58] Um, and, [00:32:00] and so I had never been side stage where there’s a band that’s about to go on and the crowd is so, so anticipating it. And the curtain is down and the band maybe peeks around to kind of check out what the crowd looks like. And the whole opening scene is just me standing there. I mean, it’s like, I’m describing what they’re doing. [00:32:19] Like their, their singer hasn’t showed up, then he shows up in an elevator. Like there’s all this just little stuff. The, the security guy comes over to yell at the guitar player. Cause he has a drink and ends up bumping and spilling the drink on And like, there’s just like all these little moments and it’s not a long intro, but I loved rereading it. [00:32:35] And I was like, well, this is really fun. And it’s like a peak of something. And actually the way that ended was, I was so. Um, kind of committed to my observational role that I was like on their heels as they actually walked on stage to the point where I realized I was visible and looked like a member of the band and like quickly turned around, but I got that feeling of what it’s like to walk on to a screaming giant crowd and it [00:33:00] was very disappointing to turn around anyway. [00:33:04] So that was like a. A blog need I have all of a sudden is like, I want to be able to post on Mastodon to my 14 followers, which I think is up to 89, um, that I have this thing and, uh, and on threads. Cause I do threads. I like threads. I can’t, I wish I had a thing that felt like [00:33:19] Brett: I used to like and then it got real, it got real weird. My feed got real [00:33:24] Jeff: I should say I like it enough. [00:33:25] Um, I will never be as happy as I was on Twitter when Twitter was a place to be happy. Um, is, you know, uh, I, I just, it’s, I, I long for it the way I long for Tumblr at its height. Like how that felt. Oh God, it felt so good. I met so many People through Twitter that I should have never been able to meet or develop a relationship with. [00:33:48] And I got an, I got a byline in the New York times because I, I connected with like a, a New York times reporter on Twitter that was reporting on the same thing I was reporting on it at [00:34:00] American Public Media. And he’s like, Hey, do you want to write something? And it was just like, Twitter was insane. Um, anyway, we all know this, this is an old story, but I, I like this idea of having a place where I’m not trying to direct people to the blog, but I can post to something that I’ve written and, and say, Hey, this was fun. [00:34:16] Go, go look at it if you want. [00:34:18] Brett: Nice. [00:34:19] Jeff: Anyway. [00:34:20] Cybertruck and Twitter Musings [00:34:20] Brett: I, uh, speaking of Twitter and the Cybertruck, um, we, all, we’re all aware of the many shortcomings of the Cybertruck, but I learned something this week that just blew me away. Blew my mind. Um, you can shift gears on the Cybertruck using the digital, like, touchscreen, which is weird enough, uh, to not have a [00:34:43] Jeff: Super weird. Super [00:34:45] Brett: Do you want to know where the alternative Prindle is? [00:34:49] Jeff: In the back. [00:34:51] Brett: Above your head on the ceiling. [00:34:53] Jeff: Oh my [00:34:54] Brett: Like you have to, and it’s not even visible until you tap it. So to shift gears, you have to look [00:35:00] up, tap the ceiling, and then slide your finger over this. Two and a half foot long fucking Prindle in the sky and like under maybe if it were an entirely self driving vehicle and you were reclining, but if it’s self driving, why do you need to shift? [00:35:20] Christina: Right. [00:35:20] Jeff: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. [00:35:23] Christina: No, you [00:35:24] Brett: it’s like Elon, It’s like Elon said, I want to disrupt automotive manufacturing, but without any thought as to what would actually be an improvement or useful in any way. just want to be different. different means making things shittier, so be it. [00:35:42] Christina: I’m seeing so many more of them all over Seattle, which is not surprising because we have so many Teslas, but it’s also disappointing because I’m like, they’re so ugly. And yeah, it’s your point. It’s like, if it were all self driving, if that was really the goal, fine, but then why shift? [00:35:57] Speaking of self driving, um, I took [00:36:00] a bunch of Waymo’s when I was in San Francisco, [00:36:03] Waymo: The Future of Self-Driving Cars [00:36:03] Jeff: That’s, [00:36:04] Christina: this week. Holy shit. It’s the greatest. Waymo so fucking good. Uh, Merlin. Merlin commented on this, uh, on, uh, uh, uh, Mastodon, um, uh, a few weeks ago. And we were both, uh, Merlin and Manon, we were both, like, uh, commiserating about how much we love it. [00:36:20] But yeah, if you’re not familiar, I mean, Waymo is, is Google self driving car taxi service thing they’ve been working on for a long time. And it’s in Los Angeles or parts of Los Angeles and, um, Phoenix and San Francisco. And it’ll be coming to, um, Austin and Atlanta and some other areas. And it’s really fucking good. [00:36:39] It’s [00:36:39] Brett: like an AI voice that makes annoying conversation with you while you Oh, what, what am I even paying for at that [00:36:46] Christina: Uh, you are paying for a car. Yeah, exactly. You were for a car that is clean, where you don’t have anybody talking to you, that takes you where you want to be, where you can control your music. Like you can select like what iHeart radio stations you want to listen [00:37:00] to. So I was [00:37:00] Brett: get to listen to annoying techno? [00:37:03] Christina: no, I mean, if you, I mean, could, if you wanted to, I was listening to Taylor Swift, um, radio from iHeart. [00:37:09] Um, and, uh, yeah, you know, and it, you can control the temperature. Like it’s. It’s freaking great. And then it is weird cause you see like the steering wheel like turn, right? Like you see this stuff happen, um, on, on the car, but like, it’s, it’s, it’s fantastic. [00:37:25] Brett: What, what over, what override features does it have? If something goes wrong, what can the passenger do? Get out? Okay. [00:37:33] Christina: Yeah, I mean, no, I mean, yeah, literally there is no like break, like there is no way to take control and, and that’s by design. So you’re, yeah, there’s [00:37:42] Brett: did see a video of an officer trying to give a citation to a Waymo vehicle. And like, they’re, apparently they automatically call into like the control center. So someone’s talking to the cop over the speaker. [00:37:57] Christina: Yes. [00:37:58] Brett: Haha. [00:37:59] Christina: I guess. [00:38:00] Okay. That is actually true. I forgot about that. So there is the override is that. Yeah. They’re not spying on you, they say. They’re not like listening to what you’re doing in the car, but they can monitor what’s happening if there’s a problem, right? So like I, I, I had one thing, like it was dropping me off at a location and I did the thing that I always do in a car, which is like I unbuckled my seatbelt, even though we were technically still moving. [00:38:22] Car did not like this at all. It was very upset. And so it kept like coming up on screens like, Oh, if you know, if you do this more, you know, we might have to call in and check in on you or whatever. So like, I assumed that if there were some sort of. Problem. Like you could in the app or on the touchscreen, like you could reach out for help and then someone [00:38:38] Brett: unbuckle your seatbelt. Yeah, [00:38:43] Christina: like you can be connected with like a human person who I think can remotely control the cars potentially, or at least like in, in the, the cop example, you know, talk to someone, although that has to be freaky for the cop where they’re like talking to the car, you[00:39:00] [00:39:00] Brett: a little thrown off. [00:39:01] Christina: I’m sure, I’m sure. [00:39:02] The Challenges of Human Drivers [00:39:02] Christina: I mean, and, and there have been, you know, instances where they’ve, they’ve run, you know, certain lights and, and they’ve done other things, but like the, the studies have shown, and, and this isn’t bullshit, like this is actually true. Like they are significantly safer than regular cars, certainly significantly safer than regular taxis or Ubers. [00:39:19] Um, the, the downside with these things is that it’s like, you know, uh, how much, Like the, the training set that they can get, you know, for, for the LIDAR for where they go, like they don’t have a lot of highway experience. And so like, you can’t take them to the airport and things like that. So they’re, they’re limited areas. [00:39:35] And, and that’ll be, I think the, the challenge, that’s why I’m curious about what they’ll do in Atlanta. Cause Atlanta, like you get on the interstate. Um, so I don’t know if it’s going to be limited to like a certain area or what, or if they’ll just be doing more testing, but the, the real, you know, Problem with a lot of these things has not actually been like the, the AI, which can get pretty good, especially if it has good visibility into things. [00:39:56] It’s that human drivers are fucking terrible [00:40:00] and trying to account for how to drive to, while still following the rules, but while not, you know, Um, succumbing to getting hit by a human driver who’s a fucking asshole and is, you know, got his hand down his pants while he’s like looking, you know, at his phone and, you know, his other hand is up his nose. [00:40:20] You know what I mean? Like that sort of shit, which happens. Yeah. I mean, I finger whatever. Um, you know, got the whole thing going on. Like that’s like, You know, like the instance is where, um, there was the Tesla driver who, like, got in the crash because, like, they were genuinely going hands free and doing stupid shit. [00:40:39] And then the car crashed and they’re like, oh, I thought that the autopilot was supposed to do it for me. And it’s like, fuck off, dude. Like, I don’t want to defend Tesla in any way, but you actually were, Not using things as designed, but even regular human drivers. I mean, I don’t drive. So to be clear, um, I’m, but I, but I’m smart about it. [00:40:56] I know that I’m not a good driver, so I don’t do it, but like human drivers are fucking [00:41:00] terrible. So that’s the problem with training these systems is it’s like, how do you have these, you know, self driving cars that can follow the rules of the road, but also won’t get fucked when a human driver being a piece of shit? [00:41:15] Brett: I have also relatively recently realized that I’m not a good driver. Um, I used to think maybe I’ve gotten more daft in my older age. Um, [00:41:26] Christina: aware. [00:41:27] Brett: yeah, and that’s entirely possible. I just like, I miss shit. I’ll like, I like merge when there’s a car in my blind spot and like have to swerve back over and I’m just, I’m not, I’m not alert. [00:41:41] I’m not, um, I don’t predict other people well. Um, I take stupid chances and if I could be given a self driving car, it would do the world a favor. Um, yeah, if I, if I were taken. [00:42:00] Out from behind the wheel. But living in as small a town as I do, it’s not really, um, [00:42:09] Christina: Right. Okay. [00:42:10] Brett: I’m too, I’m too car dependent at, I am looking at getting an ev and if I could get one with at least like assisted, like lane assist even, um, I would be in better [00:42:21] Jeff: Recommendation. This my recommendation. [00:42:23] The Debate on Electric Vehicles [00:42:23] Jeff: Do not buy anything EV or electric, we have a hybrid, until after we know how this election shakes out, because here’s the thing, you’ve seen all the movies, you’ve seen The Last of Us, you’ve seen everything where like, all the roads look like the video for Everybody Hurts, where the cars are everywhere, it’s all gonna be these electric cars, and here’s the thing, this got me thinking the other day, What is the truck that ISIS uses? [00:42:44] Because those motherfuckers know, they’ve selected, right? And they use the Toyota Hilux, I think you call it. I’ll put a link in the show notes, cause there was a great, there was a great moment a couple of years ago where the U. S. was trying to figure out how ISIS was getting so many of these Toyotas. But I like,[00:43:00] [00:43:00] Brett: because, like, what is the, what is the solid, dependable pager that Hezbollah uses? Like, you gotta, [00:43:08] Jeff: we’re gonna be past that, if everything falls apart, we’re not gonna have, we’re not gonna have, like, Israeli level, uh, you know, infiltration, they’re not gonna be in the supply chain, cause everything’s gonna be fucked. [00:43:20] Brett: Fair enough. What, [00:43:25] Jeff: Uh, anyway, [00:43:25] Brett: like we, we gotta get a show title out of that right there. Like, the, the truck, the truck that ISIS, ISIS trucks? I [00:43:35] Christina: truck, the ISIS [00:43:36] Jeff: what’s the ISIS truck? [00:43:37] Christina: I mean, honestly, that’s, that’s not a bad, that’s not a bad point. It is funny. It’s just like a Toyota, right? Like that’s, that’s, that’s a, that’s such a blow to everybody else. Who’s like, Oh yeah, we make, we make, we make our Hummers [00:43:49] Jeff: F 150, it’s not Ranger, [00:43:51] Christina: Right, well, I was gonna say, we’ll, we’ll range over, like, who even fucking owns them anymore, right? [00:43:54] Like, they’ve had so many owners, um, the law’s [00:43:57] Jeff: always Toyotas overseas. It’s the Land [00:44:00] Cruiser. It’s like, they’re just, they’re incredible trucks. We, I don’t want to get into that, but they’re incredible trucks. [00:44:05] Christina: Fucking Ford, man, like, honestly, like, how the fuck, like, how, how do you exist as Ford when, like, Toyota makes better trucks than you? Like, what the fuck? Like, genuinely, like, [00:44:14] Jeff: they tried to integrate the dick and balls feature, but [00:44:17] Christina: They did, but it didn’t work. No, but I’m with, I’m with you, Brett. Like, I, um, and Merlin and I talked about this on, on Macedon as well, but, like, So I would love to own a self driving car. [00:44:29] I would love that. Or there have been talks, this is one of the things I think that Cruz wanted to do, and who knows if we’ll get there, but like the fact that I can, at least in large swaths of San Francisco, take a robo taxi is promising. Um, but like, it would be cool if you had kind of like a zip car sort of thing where like you share ownership with number of people. [00:44:49] So, you know, cause, you know, or, or even you buy the car, but like. It could be when you’re not using it, it could be used, you know, for, for taxi purposes or [00:45:00] whatever. Like, you know, um, maybe you don’t buy the car, but like you lease the car. I don’t, I don’t know if I would want to necessarily, unless I’m getting paid for it, I don’t know if I would want to volunteer something that I’m owning and that I’m, is a depreciating asset, uh, being used by others. [00:45:14] But if it is significantly less money, And I have, you know, guaranteed hours I can use it or something else. Like that’s actually, I, I like that concept a lot of kind of like a, a zip car, you know, kind of thing, but, but, but matched with like a self driving EV, like that would be, that’d be cool. But yeah. [00:45:33] Jeff: Yeah. [00:45:34] WordPress Drama Unfolds [00:45:34] Brett: Do you want to talk about WP Engine before we hit Grapptitude? [00:45:39] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, we, we should talk about the, the WordPress drama. Um, Because, uh, you’re mentioning blogging, Jeff, and like normally I would say to a lot of people I’d be like, Oh, well, you know, this is a great case for WordPress or whatever. Speaking of that, there’s a lot of drama happening in the WordPress community, even more than usual.[00:46:00] [00:46:00] So the background, and this is not going to be completely exhaustive, I’ll find a link that probably gives the latest updates just because there’s too much of it. So please don’t at me for missing nuances. I’m, I’m trying to be fair here. Uh, so two weeks ago at WordCamp US, which is like the, the biggest, you know, like WordPress community event, uh, Matt Mullenweg, who is the CEO, um, and founder of Automatic, which is like the largest kind of like official WordPress company that the people behind WordPress. [00:46:25] com and Jetpack and WooCommerce and all that stuff, um, He’s also the co founder and the BDFL, uh, benevolent dictator for life of the WordPress project. Uh, he gave his closing speech at, at WordCamp US and he spent it basically calling out, um, kind of like vultures in the open source ecosystem, people who are, Takers and who are not giving back to the community. [00:46:54] And the, the main, um, uh, target of his, of his, uh, uh, comments was, [00:47:00] uh, the managed WordPress host, uh, WP Engine. And WP Engine was acquired by a private equity, uh, firm, um, Silverlake, um, in like 2018 for hundreds of millions of dollars. And apparently they, uh, make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. But according to, to Matt, based on whatever the, the notions of however you define contributions back to core, they donate only like 40 hours a week back to the open source project. [00:47:25] So, you know, they’re making hundreds of millions of dollars. They’re only, you know, they’re donating very little back. And so he kind of went scorched earth a little bit, calling them out, basically encouraging people to potentially like move away from them. Um, And, uh, according to Mullenlug, he said that he’d been having conversations for months with WP Engine trying to get some sort of trademark licensing deal because I guess how they use the WordPress trademark on their website is potentially violating terms. [00:47:54] I’m not a lawyer. I can’t speak to that. And so he was wanting to, you know, work out some sort of, A deal where either they [00:48:00] contribute time towards core, um, in the terms of like, you know, employee hours or, um, uh, a certain amount of their revenue, um, gross, um, to, to, um, uh, WordPress. And, um, he, so he calls them out, he gets kind of spicy in, in, in his words about it and then WP Engine is not happy. [00:48:20] And so they send a cease and desist, which, you only made things worse. And so the cease and desist was basically like, don’t, you know, keep, keep my wife’s name out of your mouth and don’t talk about this stuff. And, and, uh, and so, um, Mullenweg’s response was then to block access to WordPress. org, which he personally owns and controls all WP Engine sites. [00:48:44] And what that effectively means is that those sites can’t get updates to plugins or themes or security patches from the WordPress. org servers. So, after some backlash because regular people, you know, regular clients and agencies and people who manage [00:49:00] sites for WP Engine are impacted by this. There was some, you know, um, backtrack on that. [00:49:05] So they’re like, okay, well, you can have access for like four more days so that you can build your own infrastructure to do this. Host, you know, a copy of the, the plugin, um, uh, directory and theme directory and serve updates. Um, so he did, he did that. Um, that’s actually kind of shitty because this is like a built in mechanism into WordPress. [00:49:22] And in my opinion, it’s actually kind of a security issue because WordPress, it would be like if, if Debian said Ubuntu can’t access Apt. It’s basically like kind of how I think about it. Right. And, and I’m not saying that the WP engine shouldn’t be contributing back more because they. Absolutely should be, but I also feel like if this is a built in part of the ecosystem and this is how people get updates and how they get things, cutting people off, um, especially when you don’t make it easy in core to come up with a replacement is kind of a, you know, Not a great move, at least for your end users, putting aside [00:50:00] whatever the, the, um, uh, you know, merits are from the, um, uh, host itself. [00:50:05] Okay. So he then continues to talk about this publicly and, uh, you know, Twitter spaces and on a couple of podcasts and YouTube channels and other things. And then WP Engine files a lawsuit against him personally, as well as Automatic and other things. And in the lawsuit, they start revealing some of their communications, which may. [00:50:26] It looked like Matt was potentially trying to extort them for, for money, basically saying if you don’t give me this amount of money, then I’m going to go public with all this stuff. Um, again, I don’t, look, I’m not a lawyer, I don’t think there are a lot of merits in this lawsuit, but it certainly, all it does is escalate things. [00:50:42] The, now the net effect is that there are a few plugins that WP Engine maintains like, um, Advanced Custom Fields, which is a very, very popular plugin that has been banned from the, um, WordPress, uh, plugin repository. So nobody can get updates from it, which sucks because again, built in [00:51:00] updates have been a feature for like 15 years now. [00:51:02] 13 years. I’m not sure how long. It’s been a long time that you’ve been able to do automatic updates through the WordPress backend. And so individual users or individual site owners will have to figure out, you know, going through to, you know, download updates to, um, and, and the thing is, it’s not just WP Engine customers who use this plugin, like millions of people use this plugin because Custom fields is not built into WordPress core. [00:51:25] Maybe it fucking should be. Anyway, um, so that’s been blocked. And then, um, uh, Mullenweg gave his employees at Automattic, basically said, Either you’re aligned with me or not. And if you’re aligned with me, game on. And if not, or if you have any other reason that you just want to bounce, I’ll give you 30, 000 or six months of salary, whatever’s higher. [00:51:49] And like 160 people left the company. So like 8. 2 percent of the company left. And then there’s all kinds of blocks happening on, on Twitter and other things. [00:52:00] I don’t know. It’s sad. I feel like I feel like there are really valid reasons. I feel like there are no heroes here. And the only real losers are like the end users. [00:52:12] Yeah. Because I don’t know. [00:52:14] The Impact of Open Source Contributions [00:52:14] Christina: I feel like we should be having a conversation about how much companies give back to open source, especially companies that profit tremendously off of it. And in WordPress, it’s, it’s, it’s web hosts who usually are frankly, pretty, you know, like parasitic. But [00:52:30] Brett: sure. Well, you come from a company that has a great track record these days with open source. Oracle is one of the largest contributors to the Linux open source. [00:52:42] Christina: hmm. [00:52:43] Brett: And yeah, that is, if you’re going to sell open source software, uh, for the millions and millions and billions of dollars that the U S economy, like tech, big tech does, you [00:53:00] absolutely, it, it’s not free to you. [00:53:03] It shouldn’t be free to you. [00:53:05] Christina: Agreed. Agreed. The hard thing is, is that like the license terms, you know, you can’t really require that anybody give that. Um, and so the, the, the mechanism that, that, that Matt is arguing is that they’re violating the, the WordPress trademark. And, and I don’t know, you know, there may be some validity to that or not. [00:53:23] I don’t know. It’s, you know, that lawyers can figure that out. I don’t know. The disappointing thing to me is just how this whole thing has escalated because it’s end users who frankly don’t care about, you know, Billion dollar companies fighting with one another. They want their software to work and then now their software doesn’t work or their plugins that they install, they don’t even know that a new version is out and they can’t do anything about it without going through, you know, jumping through a bunch of hoops. [00:53:49] And [00:53:49] Brett: well, when you are the default, like website framework for what percentage, like 60 percent of the [00:53:58] Christina: 40%, but yeah, [00:53:59] Brett: [00:54:00] 40%, 40 percent of the entire web runs on your software and they installed it because it was free and because it was actively maintained and they didn’t do anything wrong by choosing it. And when, what amounts to personal, like an ego dispute. [00:54:20] If you boil it down, uh, like the drama behind it is affecting 40 percent of the web in ways that they did not make, they did not choose to put their money behind a certain horse. Um, they chose free software that was actively maintained and was making money on its own merit and not through their money and then to have the rug kind of pulled out from under you. [00:54:48] Like, that’s, you, Matt, well, Matt, Matt Mullenweg has a certain amount of responsibility. to keep the web running at this [00:55:00] point with a 40 percent share of, uh, of the framework it runs on. That would be like AWS having like a petty dispute and just like cutting off services. [00:55:13] Christina: which, which I mean, well, the irony there is that like AWS like has been like licenses have changed because of their refusal to give back to open source. But yeah, like [00:55:22] Brett: Oh, really? [00:55:23] Christina: oh, yeah, yeah, [00:55:23] Brett: Oh, I didn’t know about [00:55:24] Christina: yeah, the whole reason Elastic’s license changed, um, and I think Mongo’s and some other ones did too, is because basically AWS would just make a hosted version of their service, would contribute nothing back. [00:55:35] Or they would make changes which would be beneficial to them, but they would because it was hosted. The way the GPL works is that technically if it’s a service, then you don’t have to give the contributions back. And, oh, it’s, it’s beyond shitty. Yeah, no, no. Amazon’s open source track record, um, it’s gotten better, but it’s not great. [00:55:51] Um, although even Elastic has made some changes with some of their, their sourcing in, in the years since then. But yeah, I mean, you know, so, but. Like I [00:56:00] said, it would be kind of like, to me, the biggest thing was, I’m like, look, if you want to kick, if you want to, you know, go after them for the trademark stuff, if you want to publicly, you know, shame on the companies, I don’t have a problem with that. [00:56:11] Um, I, some of the community people I think are like overly invested in, in WP Engine, which feels weird to me. I’m like, they’re not going to fuck you, bro. Um, I mean, unless you’re their, your employer, in which case, cool. But like, otherwise they’re, they’re a host just like anybody else. Um, but like If you want to, if you want to do that stuff, that’s fine. [00:56:31] But I feel like cutting off access to the update servers when you don’t offer an easy mechanism for other people to things, kicking popular plugins that are very important out from, um, you know, getting updates like this is all stuff again. And again, like you’ve designed your system in a way that you actively have been hostile to people who’ve been like, well, what if we didn’t have this reliance on this wordpress. [00:56:54] org system? Um, um, And so that, that’s where I have a problem with it. And then I [00:57:00] think that just kind of the, the knee jerk, like, anti response to anybody in the community who expresses concerns, like, I don’t think it’s a good look. And so, like I said, I don’t think there are any winners here at all. I don’t think there are any heroes. [00:57:13] I think that the losers are the community. But the real fear I have is like, and I’ve never really thought this before, it’s, it’s like, Are we going to have some kind of schism, right? Because I don’t really think that you can have a viable WordPress fork. Like, I don’t think that can really happen. Um, I think that the money that would be required would be so much that people are like, Oh, well, what if WP Engine just forked WordPress? [00:57:35] And I’m like, well, they could, but the whole, The point of the dispute is that they are not giving money back. So are, if you think that their response to this is going to be to invest hundreds of millions of dollars potentially into building a, and maintaining a fork, I’m sorry, but I think you’re, you’re wrong. [00:57:54] I don’t think that they will do that. Right. So. Potentially you have people moving on to [00:58:00] other things or less secure things. You know, Ghost came out of members of the WordPress community who didn’t like its decision for various reasons, but it’s not code based at all. Um, and so I, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but it’s, it’s, uh, certainly, um, it’s like not ending. [00:58:18] And I keep hoping that like, You know, cooler heads will prevail and that it will not be as bad, you know, as this is, but I just, I don’t know. Even though I’m not like an active WordPress user, I mean, I use it for some things. It’s too important for this to be [00:58:36] Brett: Yeah. [00:58:37] Jeff: Yeah. [00:58:38] Christina: like, to crash and burn. I don’t know. [00:58:40] Jeff: Definitely. [00:58:42] Brett: I, uh, I, not that I wasn’t paying attention to what you were saying, but in the back of my head, I figured out our episode title. [00:58:49] Christina: Fantastic, Helis. [00:58:50] Brett: You ready? ISIS pickup lines. [00:58:55] Jeff: wow. [00:58:55] Christina: good. That’s really, really good. [00:58:57] Brett: Thank you very much. [00:58:58] grAPPtitude [00:58:58] Brett: All right, you guys ready for some [00:59:00] Grapptitude? [00:59:00] Christina: Yeah. [00:59:02] Jeff: Yeah. [00:59:03] Brett: Um, Jeff, you have your sound. I’ll go first. Um, I, we’ve talked about this app before, but I recently gave it a run for the first time in a few years, and it is NameMangler, uh, from ManyTricks Software, and Um, I, for a while I’ve just been using Forklift’s internal renaming tool which allows like Regex replacement and is satisfactory for most of what I do. [00:59:33] But NameMangler allows you to batch rename files by dragging together, multiple actions. And you can even do custom scripts inside of it to handle like edge case renaming. And if you have a bunch of, well, and the metadata stuff where you can pull in, like, if you’re renaming a bunch of photos, you can pull in dates and locations and [01:00:00] dimensions and use any parts of those for, The final filename, which could allow you to come up with much more descriptive names than image underscore zero zero zero nine two. [01:00:12] And instantly turn your folder of files into something, far more readable and usable. I’m using it right now to rename batches of files for my blog and I, I’m pretty blown away. It is, uh. And it’s really pretty. [01:00:28] Christina: It’s so [01:00:29] Brett: app. [01:00:29] Jeff: pretty. [01:00:30] Christina: Really pretty. Um, and just a note for anybody out there, um, it is available in the Mac App Store, or you can buy it from them directly and they’ll get more money. If, like me, you bought it many years ago, um, whenever the 3. 0 version was released from the Mac App Store, if you want to cross grade to the, um, non 3. [01:00:48] Um, uh, App Store version. All you do is, um, launch it at least once from the App Store. Then, um, download the, um, [01:01:00] application. Do not move it to your applications folder yet, but, but move it to another folder, install it, launch it. And then you’re good to go. It’ll then give you like a temporary license, um, that’ll only work on that machine. [01:01:11] So if you, you know, move to another machine or, or reinstall or whatever, you’ll have to redo this step. Uh, and then you can uninstall the, uh, Mac App Store version and move the other one to your [01:01:21] Brett: Oh, I should do that with Marked. Like, Marked has a, you can get a free crossgrade from the MAS version to the Direct version from within Marked. You just go to, like, Help, Crossgrade, and it’ll, it’ll generate you a license as a Mac App Store user. Um, but then you have to, like, download and enter the license. [01:01:40] And it would be really cool if people, if I could just be like, just download the, Just tell me the direct version because the Mac App Store version, the only difference is sandboxing. [01:01:50] Christina: exactly. [01:01:51] Brett: and when you’re dealing with like a markdown file that can include images from anywhere on the disk or one that can run custom processors, um, that have [01:02:00] to be like executable by the system, a sandboxing is just unworkable. [01:02:04] So I cross grade people all the time. [01:02:06] Christina: yeah, yeah, um, and I’m pretty sure, like, I can probably find after we get off, I’m sure people have written, um, ways that they’ve, um, you know, automated this, because I assume all it does is that it’s looking for the ID, you know, um, on, on the system, you know, wherever it would be, and then it’s just, you know, basically checking, does this exist? [01:02:25] Yes or no? If yes, then unlock, right? Like, I’m [01:02:28] Brett: Oh yeah, like the receipt, uh, App Store file. Yeah. [01:02:32] Christina: And then once you’ve done that, like you can delete it and it doesn’t matter. Um, but yeah, so, uh, but yeah, Namingler, I haven’t used that in a long time. Um, but when I have used it, I just looked at it again. I was like, Oh, that’s really pretty. [01:02:43] And, um, God, we’ve been giving them a lot of love lately because, uh, the new, uh, Moom, um, uh, is really too. [01:02:50] Brett: many tricks makes good [01:02:51] Christina: They make very good stuff. [01:02:53] Jeff: Sure do. Yeah. Mine is not a maybe. I put it down as a maybe, uh, in our show, in our [01:03:00] notes. But, uh, I am, there’s this, um, it’s a, it’s a web app, but it’s also just kind of like an approach to personal finance called You Need a Budget or YNAB. They’ve been around forever. We’ve used them in our house forever. [01:03:14] Um, Back when they even used to have an app you could download. Now it’s just a web app. Um, and I have been, I just decided to, we just kind of blew up our budget and rebuilt it in, in YNAB, like using the YNAB principles as much as possible. Let me tell you their entire podcast dedicated to this, their YouTube series dedicated to this, so I won’t get into the, into the weeds, but I will just say that as kind of budgeting software, and I used Mint way back in the [01:03:41] Christina: I say, and the Mint, it was down. [01:03:44] Jeff: yep. [01:03:44] Um, it is so elegant. It is so well thought out. It is so constantly developed and updated. And if you are just kind of looking for something like some kind of way to wrangle and have like a single view of all of your, your world, [01:04:00] your credit cards, your bank accounts, your saving accounts, even if that’s all you want. [01:04:04] It’s great for that. And then it has this whole like kind of framework for budgeting that we’ve been using for a long time. That’s durable enough that like, if you fall off of it, you can, you can get back up, um, and, and get going and it doesn’t all just kind of like implode. So anyway, they just do beautiful work. [01:04:21] Um, and I, I really recommend taking a peek at it. [01:04:24] Brett: What kind of, what kind of automation does it have? [01:04:28] Jeff: Meaning, I mean, like, I don’t know if you mean like, does it import your accounts and shit, yeah, very, very solid importing of all, every account I’ve ever tried to put into it. Um, and, and if ever anything breaks, it’s because on the bank side, they did something Um, I’ve, I mean, it just like, it’s unbelievable how reliable, um, it is and how good communicators they are, if there is any little issue. [01:04:55] Um, so yeah, it’s been. It’s been great. Yeah. It’s if you just wanted to go in [01:05:00] there, pull everything in and look at it, it’s kind of like, [01:05:02] Brett: But like, can you like, can you categorize transactions? So future, future Yeah. [01:05:08] Jeff: That’s the point of it. You put in your recurring transactions, you can categorize transactions, you can add targets. So you’re, you know, every paycheck to like send money here or whatever. Um, it’s great. And like rocket money, like I still think rocket money is over there running my imports. [01:05:24] Uh, just, it’s so nice to just have a thing where you just import everything and you can just look at it at once. [01:05:30] Christina: Yeah, I was ask it [01:05:31] Jeff: can be nice. [01:05:32] Christina: because, because Rocket Money is great for like the recurring stuff like you forget about. I didn’t know if any of those services have something like that built in, which would be cool. Like, [01:05:39] Jeff: not to the extent, not at all to the extent Rocket Money does. You can kind of use it off to the side, uh, which is what I did when I just kind of did my Rocket Money run a couple of years ago. [01:05:48] Brett: Oh, I Rocket [01:05:49] Jeff: It’s amazing. [01:05:50] Brett: use Rocket Money every [01:05:51] Jeff: I need to actually go back to it cause I’m got some weird shit. Why do I have two one passwords? [01:05:56] Oh, I I have two set up. I have two set up [01:05:58] Brett: my, all, all [01:06:00] I’ve forgotten about, [01:06:01] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [01:06:03] Christina: No, that’s awesome. I’m thank, I’m glad. Thank you for mentioning that because I’ve had this, like, in my mind I’m like, um, ’cause I don’t really use anything right now other than like a spreadsheet for certain stuff or, you know, just me, you know, eyeballing accounts and, I have, I should have a much better system. [01:06:18] Um, so, um, I, I, but I’ve heard great things about, um, um, wine a so. [01:06:24] Brett: for years I’ve heard great things. [01:06:26] Jeff: really, it’s really great. Also just great exporting. That’s which is for me, any software I’m deep into, I better be able to export a CSV or whatever else nice and clean. And, and obviously it’s not rare with financial stuff, [01:06:38] Christina: Well, no, but more well, it is and it’s not, right? Because, I mean, famously, the fucking Apple credit card, it was like six months before you could export transactions from the fucking card. Which is [01:06:50] Jeff: Yeah, [01:06:50] Christina: Insane. It is insane. I’m like, still now, like the fact that like, you know, you have to use your fucking iPhone to like get your transactions. [01:06:57] There’s not like a web view. Maybe there finally is a web view, but [01:07:00] I’m like, what are you doing? Like it is, I mean, it’s fine. I, I basically only use that credit card for Apple purchases, which, you know, is, you know, You know, I still, it’s still spent thousands of dollars a year on it, but it’s not like a daily card or anything. [01:07:13] And part of the reason for that is that like, you know, American Express, Chase, you know, Citi, all of them give you really good tools to export and integrate into those systems really well. Even if you’re not using, even if you’re, you know, like me and you’re just using your Excel thing, like at least I can export all my transactions and like Apple card, you would think. [01:07:33] No. [01:07:33] Brett: would think. [01:07:34] Jeff: but we gave you widgets on your lock screen. [01:07:36] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [01:07:39] Brett: Every time I see the abbreviation YNAB, I think of the Merlin podcast, You Look Nice Today. [01:07:47] Christina: That’s [01:07:48] Jeff: Oh man, [01:07:48] Brett: and I don’t, I think it’s just the Y and then letters. I [01:07:55] Christina: think I feel like, I think I get like it in NIMBY confused, even though like they’re that the [01:08:00] letters are completely different. Yeah, [01:08:03] Brett: see an acronym, I just assume NIMBY. Ahaha I just assume, ah Neighborhood watch something. [01:08:13] Christina: in my [01:08:13] Brett: Um, [01:08:14] Christina: Or maybe I know. Here’s what I get confused with. YIMBY. That’s what it is. Yeah. Cause yes, in my backyard, which is like the, um, the, [01:08:21] Jeff: in my backyard. [01:08:22] Christina: the alternative thing, which is like, yes, we need to build, which I actually agree with. But yeah, [01:08:27] Brett: I am NIMBY on a lot of stuff. [01:08:28] Christina: same. [01:08:29] Brett: You can have my backyard. All right, Christina, looks like you have a fun [01:08:32] Christina: I do. So this was one that I actually discovered yesterday and I was really excited to discover it because I was like, I probably would have had another pick, but I discovered this one and I was really excited about it. So it is a app. It’s a new app. It came out like a month ago. It’s called Prop Edit. It is in the Mac app store. [01:08:48] It’s 8. And it is a editor for plist and JSON files. So basically it’s like a, an Apple property list, um, um, editor. Um, and it’s, and, uh, this is, uh, how [01:09:00] the developer describes it. PropEdit is a viewer and editor for Apple propriety, uh, property lists. [01:09:09] It’s aimed at both software developers and end users who want easy access to the standard file types. So you can, you know, change any entry in the files, um, you know, property names, entry types, values can be edited freely. They can be removed, added, and sorted. And it handles, you know, nested depth. So basically this is a sandboxed and, they call it a simplified version of PrefEdit or PrefEdit app. And, and both of those have been around, like, like PrefEdit has been around since 2000 and PrefEdit app, I think, uh, you know, came out in 2011 and those are some of the oldest, you know, apps for working with property lists on macOS. [01:09:47] Um, and. Uh, but there have been, you know, issues, I guess, they’ve made some changes so that you can get this in the App Store essentially. Um, so like PropEdit does not support direct work with the macOS preferences [01:10:00] system since they no longer allow that in the App Store. So instead it uses the JSON format, um, uh, next to plist. [01:10:06] But uh, I, like I said, it was 8. I don’t have to edit like my plist often, but sometimes I need to look at something and I’m curious how it works. I’d actually, I think I even had a trial of, um, uh, PrefEdit before, and it, it’s fine, but I’ll be honest, it was a little more complicated than what I probably needed. [01:10:28] Um, and so I, I, I bought this and it’s, it’s a really nice app. So if you fall into the category, they, they said of, you know, developers are enthusiasts and you occasionally need to, you know, mess with, with plist files, you know, hell yeah. [01:10:43] Brett: So just for, for anyone listening who is a Mac user and doesn’t know why they would need to edit a plist file, all preferences for all apps on your Mac are stored in plist format. All of Your system [01:11:00] preferences from like your dark mode to your accent color to more esoteric stuff is all stored in plist format. [01:11:10] So if you want to explore any of those settings at more of a system level, you need to be able to read and write plist formats. Um, and plist comes in both binary and text, and an app like PropEdit can read both binary and text [01:11:27] Jeff: amazing. [01:11:29] Brett: um, I am curious, uh, you said it can’t edit default preferences, but I assume it can still edit app preference [01:11:37] Christina: right, right, so what it says is that it, um, uh, it can open and write the XML based stuff. Um, so that’s why they’re using JSON because the, um, macOS like changed things in 2012 for sandbox apps. So you can still open that stuff, it’s just it has to use the JSON. Um, rather than, than I guess, like, [01:12:00] the direct way. [01:12:02] Brett: Cool. [01:12:03] Jeff: I’ve, I’ve wanted something like this forever. Yeah. Yeah. [01:12:06] Christina: because it’s useful for sometimes, like, when you are moving from, like, one system to another, and you don’t necessarily want to just move, like, the plist over. Automatically, because you’re like, maybe I do want to make a modification, but you’re like, okay, but what, what were my settings? Like, it’s just an easy way of viewing it, you know, if nothing else, even if it’s just as a viewer, right? [01:12:25] Sometimes that’s all you need, but it’s also useful to be like, okay, well, now that I see it, how can I edit it? And there are some things like, obviously there are ways that many times, you know, you can change the settings, you know, end user or a command line, but if you can also just change, you know, like it in the file itself, even better. [01:12:42] Jeff: Yeah, it’s awesome. [01:12:44] Brett: All right. Good show, guys. [01:12:47] Jeff: Good show. Good show. [01:12:48] Brett: We had, we had talk of ISIS, [01:12:52] Christina: Mm hmm. [01:12:52] Brett: self driving cars. [01:12:55] Jeff: ISIS driving [01:12:57] Brett: like, [01:12:57] Christina: we got it all. [01:12:59] Brett: what a show, [01:13:00] [01:13:00] Jeff: What a show! What a show! [01:13:02] Christina: Brett’s plan for, uh, taking back, uh, you know, the bonus. Um, [01:13:10] Brett: My plans for next year, um, yeah. All right. Well, you guys enjoy the weather. Have a a great rest of your weekend. [01:13:20] Christina: you too. Get some sleep, guys. [01:13:22] Jeff: Yeah, get some sleep.

This is the first of two episodes. The idea was for Merlin and Jeff to discuss how they were using chatGPT in ways that are maybe novel. The thing is, the pre-show banter became in-show banter that barely touched the intended topic, which is awesome because now, thanks to the transcript of this episode, we have fodder for chatGPT experimentation between episodes.

On this episode of Overtired, Brett, Christina, and Jeff dive into the nuances of recording at offbeat hours, battle through heavy metal noise and prescription pill bottle museums, and share laugh-worthy tales of mental health mishaps and medication struggles. Copilot's magic, ChatGPT's native Mac app, and a Sinatra of everyday cheat sheets make the tech cut, while Jeff chases elusive cinematic experiences with Repo Man, Ridgemont High, and classic noir flicks. You don't got the butts to miss this episode.

Christina, Jeff, and Brett dive into a rollercoaster episode packed with wild travel tales, parenting epiphanies, and tech geekery. Christina shares her whirlwind trip to San Francisco, while Jeff reminisces about meth-centric band auditions. Brett navigates an Accidental Vyvanse Overdose and a transition to VS Code, with plenty of geek love for GitHub extensions and markdown editors. They debate light themes, licensing chaos, and the quirks of macro automation tools.

A Brett and Jeff episode! The co-hosts discuss Jeff's recovery from COVID, including musings on mask-wearing fatigue. Jeff opens up about the emotional experience of dropping his son off at college, while both share their struggles with being increasingly moved to tears by everyday events (like TV commercials). The duo also dives into their longtime fondness for apps like Noteplan and DevonThink, Brett's rewrite of his tool Planter, and the newfound allure of VS Code over Sublime.

It’s Brett’s 46th birthday bash, and he’s celebrating in style with Jeff and Christina. Expect gifts like Cooks Illustrated and flood detectors, riveting overflowing toilet tales, and sampling fun with Koala. Dive into comedy insights with an ‘Elf’ story featuring James Caan, and honor Bob Newhart’s 1961 Grammy win. Plus, a TUAW domain kerfuffle and Macstock marvels. Laugh, learn, and maybe even fix your toilet seat! Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t touch. It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s available now to companies with Okta, and coming later this year to Google Workspace and Microsoft Entra. Check it out at 1Password.com/product/XAM. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Birthday Celebrations 00:43 Gifts and Subscriptions 02:37 Home Improvement and Plumbing Stories 03:53 The Best Toilet Seat Ever 05:52 Plumbing Mishaps and Family History 11:10 Birthday Party Plans 13:40 CrowdStrike Incident 19:09 Sponsor: 1Password 21:20 Sponsor bonus content 27:33 Reviving TUAW: A Controversial Story 33:59 AI Articles and Identity Theft 35:08 The Resurrection of Old Content 35:48 Reflecting on Past Work 37:40 The Sale of Content Rights 44:50 Macstock Reunion 50:09 GrAPPtitude: App Recommendations 01:04:38 Remembering Bob Newhart Show Links Best toilet seat ever Major Windows BSOD issue hits banks, airlines, and TV broadcasters – The Verge A Beloved Tech Blog Is Now Publishing AI Articles Under the Names of Its Old Human Staff (404media.co) Early Apple tech bloggers are shocked to find their name and work have been AI-zombified – The Verge Apple blog TUAW returns as an AI content farm (engadget.com) Screen Studio Kaleidoscope Welcome Kaleidoscope 5 Koala Sampler Jammin’ on the One Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Jammin’ on the One [00:00:00] Introduction and Birthday Celebrations [00:00:00] [00:00:03] Brett: Hey, happy birthday. It’s my birthday. It’s Overtired. Um, we’re all here this week. It’s Jeff Severance Gunsel, Christina Warren, and myself, Brett Terpstra. Uh, how are you guys? [00:00:16] Christina: Not too bad. Go on, go on, Jeff. Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say pretty birth I was gonna say happy birthday. I was like, not as good as you, birthday boy, but you know, [00:00:24] Brett: I’m 46 today [00:00:26] Jeff: Forty six. [00:00:28] Brett: I’m not lying about my age like some people do. Um, [00:00:33] Christina: It might be, it might be your birthday, but I’ll still tell you to fuck off. I can lie about my age as long as I want. [00:00:37] Brett: I wasn’t singling you out. I just said some people. [00:00:41] Jeff: Some people. [00:00:43] Christina: Some [00:00:43] Gifts and Subscriptions [00:00:43] Brett: Um, yeah, I, uh, I’ve had a really good birthday. Elle, Elle knows how much I love getting gifts and I’m too old for most people to give me so they take it upon themselves to shower me. With gifts every year. [00:01:00] Um, and this year they got me a bunch of cool stuff, including a subscription to Cooks Illustrated and, uh, the book Vegetables Illustrated from Cooks Illustrated, which I’m very excited. [00:01:11] Jeff: Print subscription? What a beautiful is this still beautiful? It’s been a long time. I don’t know if it got eaten by okay, [00:01:17] Brett: I was picking them up at the co-op and just like, well actually, uh, one of the, one of the families that EL was house sitting for had them laying out. And I had forgotten how much I loved that magazine. Even like, even as a pescatarian who can’t eat half the recipes in there, they’re still so beautifully illustrated and beautifully written. [00:01:39] Brett: And it’s just, it’s a fun read. It’s food, it’s food porn. [00:01:43] Jeff: in an era yeah, but with line art. But in a in an era of like, um, the horrible, awful, terrible, evil, fascist food blog, where it’s like, let me just push all this shit away to get to a very simple recipe. [00:01:59] Brett: [00:02:00] huh. [00:02:00] Jeff: How amazing that all of the extra verbiage in Cook’s Illustrated is just towards you learning. [00:02:07] Jeff: Uh, I think it’s amazing. It was like in the day, maybe it sounds like it’s the same, it was like McSweeney’s level design attention, but like even beyond that somehow. Yeah. That’s awesome. [00:02:18] Brett: That’s exciting. Um, yeah, she also got me the book, um, Hip Hop is History by Questlove, [00:02:26] Jeff: Oh, nice. [00:02:27] Brett: cause they heard a, an interview and they’re like, Oh, this is all Brett. This is great. So they got me the book. So anyway, it’s been a great birthday. [00:02:37] Home Improvement and Plumbing Stories [00:02:37] Brett: My parents got me a flood sensor, which at first blush is ridiculous because we live high on a hill. [00:02:45] Brett: Uh, on a bluff or like on next to a bluff, but like, there’s no chance of our house flooding, but I have done things like missing, poorly install a bidet and not [00:03:00] realize that I’m flooding the basement [00:03:02] Jeff: Yeah, those are great for the basements. [00:03:04] Brett: Yeah. So, so having some, some, uh, moisture sensors around the house could be. Could be truly valuable. [00:03:13] Brett: My dad got it for me because he had recently discovered that a 30 year old toilet had begun slowly leaking into the foundation. [00:03:23] Jeff: Oh man. [00:03:24] Brett: so he’s like, everybody gets flood detectors now. [00:03:28] Jeff: That’s amazing. I bet it wasn’t the toilets fault though. [00:03:32] Brett: Well, [00:03:32] Jeff: just like a seal or something? Cause the amazing thing about toilets is they can go forever. There’s such simple machines. [00:03:37] Brett: just solid pieces of porcelain. Yeah. It would have been like a seal or something. Um, [00:03:44] Jeff: Fascinating content. Hey [00:03:46] Brett: Yeah, yeah, subscribe, subscribe for more home improvement. Um, [00:03:50] Christina: Okay. Speaking of [00:03:51] Jeff: about it all day. [00:03:53] The Best Toilet Seat Ever [00:03:53] Christina: of toilets, someone showed me, no, no, genuinely, somebody showed me the best toilet seat I’ve ever seen the other day. [00:04:00] Um, it’s, it’s, it’s from like this, this, um, LA based artist who’s pretty awesome. And she, she basically took a bunch of old smartphones and made like a toilet seat out of them. [00:04:10] Christina: Um, let me, let me find the link that I, that I can give you guys. Um, it’s really good. It’s the only problem is, and the only reason I’m not going to have it is that it’s. Is 1, 250. So, um, you know, that, that, that, that unfortunately, um, prices me out just a little bit. Yeah. The woman’s name is, uh, is Bailey, um, Hikawa and her stuff is incredible here. [00:04:31] Christina: I’m putting this link in our chat here [00:04:35] Jeff: Do you ever have to tighten your toilet seat? [00:04:37] Brett: oh yeah, [00:04:37] Jeff: Man. [00:04:38] Brett: when you sit down and it wiggles off [00:04:40] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find that to be probably the most disgusting of toilet related maintenance because you have to get your hands around there and get your hand under there on the nut. Uh, just very terrible and preventable. I’m sure, [00:04:55] Brett: we have one of those like bolt on bidets and in order to [00:05:00] properly clean our toilet, you have to fully remove the toilet seat and the bidet. So about once a week I do that and I’ve gotten really good at it, but I’ve also stripped out the screws by using a drill on the plastic screw. [00:05:13] Jeff: oh no, you should have called [00:05:15] Brett: the chances of ever tightening it enough that that little slip doesn’t happen when you sit down, that’s going to require [00:05:22] Jeff: Wait, let’s make this the whole podcast. I have a couple of questions. Are those screws embedded or can you replace them? Cause they, [00:05:27] Brett: Oh, they’re totally replaceable. [00:05:28] Jeff: Okay, okay. Good to know. [00:05:30] Brett: I have replaced them multiple times. I even tried replacing them with metal screws once, but that was, uh, [00:05:35] Jeff: But you only really think about it when you’re on the shitter. Yeah, that’s a problem because you can’t do anything from there. Maybe Amazon. [00:05:41] Brett: How much, how long do you think we could talk about toilets? Because [00:05:44] Jeff: I’ll tell you what. [00:05:46] Brett: haven’t even gotten into the talking toilets with the built in bidets. I, [00:05:52] Plumbing Mishaps and Family History [00:05:52] Jeff: One, my entire line of, of Gunsels, uh, in America, up until my dad [00:06:00] became a teacher, was plumbers. Gunsel Plumbing and Heating ruled the North Side. Uh, and, and so that’s one thing. Two, the reason my name is Jeff and not John, is because is because my dad was worried that coming from a plumbing fact, uh, family, I would be ridiculed for having a name that is also what you call a bathroom. So I can talk about this all day, uh, but we should probably stop for the sake of our, our, [00:06:25] Brett: No, I’m, I’m digging this. It’s my birthday and I want to talk about toilets. I actually worked as a, [00:06:31] Jeff: what you wish for. [00:06:32] Brett: I worked as an apprentice plumber in, uh, in college and have installed my fair share of toilets. I enjoy everything from the wax ring up. Um, that’s, that’s actually [00:06:45] Jeff: The wax ring is fascinating. For people that don’t know, the seal that keeps your toilet from doing what Brett’s dad’s toilet did, for the most part, is a fucking wax ring to this day. [00:06:57] Brett: And it’s soft. It’s, it’s a soft wax ring. [00:07:00] Um, but yeah, and clearing out, um, toilets that people flush tampons down out in on campus. That was fun. [00:07:11] Jeff: I am the family’s plunger. [00:07:13] Brett: Hairballs were, I never, I never got used to hairballs. Yeah, I own my own snake. I can do all that stuff. [00:07:21] Jeff: I remember a friend of the show, Danny Glamour, telling me about his time working in a nursing home and how he at least once had to go into a bathroom and break up a poop with a screwdriver to make something work. Christina, how are you with all this? I don’t know. I have a feeling you’re either like, yeah, I’ll just listen. [00:07:40] Jeff: Or you’re like fucking stop. [00:07:42] Christina: No, I mean, I’ll [00:07:42] Brett: For all we know, she also worked as a plumber. [00:07:45] Jeff: know. [00:07:46] Christina: no. Uh, no. I’m the one who calls the plumber. Please, like, I’m the one who, like, does something dumb that requires the plumber to be called because, you know, yeah, you’re flushing the tampons down the toilet or whatever. Uh, no, I have [00:08:00] no opinions on any of this, but it’s interesting. [00:08:03] Brett: Can I tell you? Oh, go ahead. [00:08:04] Jeff: we’re both just ready to keep going. [00:08:06] Brett: We got stories, man. [00:08:07] Jeff: Uh, you go, I’ll go, and then maybe we can, [00:08:10] Brett: So my, the most recent time I had to call a plumber was our, our kitchen sink and the dishwasher weren’t draining. Um, and I had snaked down, my snake goes 50 feet and I had not been able to clear the issue. Uh, but I found, you know, the access valve in the downspout of the sink. [00:08:31] Brett: I’m, I’m, I’m fucking up technical terms here, [00:08:33] Jeff: Yeah, but your hand gestures are getting us there. [00:08:35] Brett: If I unscrewed it, it would drain. So there was something, I could not figure out why that worked, but like it was, it was baffling, so we brought in a plumber and he snakes like a hundred feet in, he can’t find anything wrong. Like he gets all the way to the wall in the basement, nothing clogging it, no problem. [00:08:56] Brett: The problem ends up being this little valve. It’s like a, [00:09:00] uh, I can’t remember what they call it. It’s just this tiny little part. It costs 15 to replace, but it costs us 200 in time for him to realize that the problem was right at the, at the faucet. Um, I couldn’t figure it out. I’ll, I’ll give him, I’m, yeah, they shouldn’t have charged me. [00:09:21] Brett: That’s the thing. If he, if he did all that and then realized that he missed an obvious thing he should have checked first, I shouldn’t have been charged 200. [00:09:29] Jeff: Ah, this is the this is the forever problem. Yeah. I don’t feel like we’ve ever had a contractor where it doesn’t end with, like, Uh, wait a minute, hold on. Ha ha ha ha ha! [00:09:39] Christina: you for what now? [00:09:40] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [00:09:41] Christina: that you messed up first? Yeah. Which, uh Which I think, which uh, we’re recording this on, on, on CrowdStrike day, so I think that’s something that even people not dealing with plumbing can relate to. [00:09:54] Jeff: Yes. Yes. [00:09:55] Brett: we move on to [00:09:56] Jeff: Uh, after this one piece, um, so my grandfather, [00:10:00] my grandfather was the final plumber in the line, and I used to be at their home when he would get home from work. Man, they had an amazing little like Dodge white van that said Gunsel Plumbing and Heating. I’d kill for that van. Um, but I do have a giant framed Gunsel Plumbing and Heating poster from the 30s that is really awesome. [00:10:16] Jeff: But anyway, he would come home and he would go down to the basement and he would wash his hands for so long. long and I would sit there and talk to him and it was just like he’d go to the laundry, uh, to the laundry sink and just soap and fucking go and soap and go that like lava soap that like [00:10:32] Brett: Oh, I was going to ask if it was the orange stuff. [00:10:34] Jeff: I don’t think that was around yet because that’s sort of in the 80s like uh early or mid 80s and um but then today to this day I am always happy when I my hands have become dirty enough like I was out working on this like, ancient tool and my hands were just filled with grease. [00:10:51] Jeff: I don’t wear gloves. And I, and I am so thrilled when I have to come in and I just have to scrub and scrub and scrub and scrub because it just like, it feels like, feels like [00:11:00] Gramps. Uh, [00:11:01] Brett: your kids sit and talk to you while you do [00:11:02] Jeff: no, nobody talks to me while I do it. Nobody. Zero people. All right. That’s all I had to get out. [00:11:10] Birthday Party Plans [00:11:10] Brett: Oh, I was going to tell you guys about my birthday party before we move [00:11:14] Christina: Yeah, please [00:11:14] Jeff: Well, please, we asked before and that was what triggered us ending the pre show and starting the [00:11:20] Brett: I always hope that someone will throw me a cool birthday party. And I had, um, put together rough plans back in 2020 something, um, for, for my birthday. 42nd birthday party, which would have been four years ago. Yeah. So like 2020 and I was going to have a big hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy theme party. [00:11:44] Brett: And I was, I had plans for like a plaster. Head, like second head. So it could be, what’s it, Zaphod. Um, that all fell through thanks COVID and thanks Obama. And, um, and so I haven’t had a birthday party since [00:12:00] then. So this year I took it upon myself and I got, I sent out a Facebook invite to like 50 people, including Jeff, who doesn’t check Facebook. [00:12:10] Christina: Right. Because who, who, who, because who checks Facebook genuinely? [00:12:14] Brett: I do. Um, [00:12:15] Jeff: But you gotta, but text me, then I feel like I’m really invited. [00:12:18] Brett: Sure, sure. It’s just, I had a lot, I had a lot of moving parts. Um, but I put together a party at, uh, it’s called Suncrest Garden Pizza Farm. And it’s like big outdoor, they have a big barn with a wood fire, uh, wood Yeah, wood fire oven and they make pizzas to order and they do a vegan gluten free pizza and with your choice of toppings and then you eat outdoor. [00:12:44] Brett: There’s some picnic tables but most people bring a blanket and just like sit around and there’s live music. Huge craft beer selection and yeah so I organized my own birthday party and I’m pretty excited. I got like 20 people coming that’s not bad.[00:13:00] [00:13:01] Christina: pretty great, [00:13:01] Jeff: That’s awesome, man. That sounds amazing. I’ve always wanted to go to one of those. And I wish I was going to yours. I really do. And I’m looking up on Facebook now, the invite, just so I can at least enjoy it and acknowledge it. I really truly did not see it. And I’m sorry about that. [00:13:18] Brett: Yeah, I, I did, I did manually invite a few people. I assumed you wouldn’t be able to make it. So you’re lower on my list of people to like force invites upon, [00:13:29] Jeff: Yeah, but I agreed to a hour plus call with you today. [00:13:35] Christina: It’s true. [00:13:36] Brett: without, without travel time. [00:13:38] Jeff: But without travel time, that’s right. [00:13:39] Brett: yeah. All right. [00:13:40] CrowdStrike Incident [00:13:40] Brett: We should talk about CrowdStrike, um, that I don’t know how pressing it will be on Monday when this comes out, but for today, [00:13:48] Christina: for today, [00:13:50] Brett: It’s a hell of a thing to have happen on your birthday, [00:13:53] Christina: I mean, I’m, I’m glad that you’re not a Windows admin and, um, [00:13:57] Brett: right? Oh [00:13:57] Christina: genuinely that’d be the worst. No. So for [00:14:00] anybody who is not aware, um, three days ago, as you were listening to this, like the world woke up and everything was broken because CrowdStrike issued a driver update to tens of thousands of machines that Blue screen of death, everything. [00:14:16] Brett: planes, planes weren’t taking off. Online banking wasn’t working. Health providers were failing. Yeah, [00:14:23] Jeff: Oh, I couldn’t deposit checks at my bank today. [00:14:26] Christina: Oh yeah, no, ATMs are down. Like a friend of mine, um, is an ER doc at like one of the biggest hospitals in, in Washington. And, and like, uh, he sent me, you know, info. He was like, yeah, they just told us to bring our own laptops in today. And then he sent me like, like a, like the part of an email that like showed all the systems that are down. [00:14:44] Christina: I was like, holy shit. Now most of the main systems, I think like the really, really like important ones are back up already, but [00:14:51] Brett: they said. They said most, most users that could just reboot [00:14:57] Christina: Yes, [00:14:57] Brett: would come up fine. The [00:15:00] problem was automated systems that can’t be cycled in that way. [00:15:05] Christina: Right, yeah, so this is the funny thing, like the best solution to this is literally to restart it between 3 and 15 times. [00:15:15] Brett: you tried turning it off and turning it back on 15 [00:15:18] Christina: And yet that is actually one of the solutions, yeah, so I mean, people are working on some automated ways for this to work, but honestly, like, bad day for CrowdStrike, although, you know what, these are fucking McAfee people, so I don’t know why we expected more from them. [00:15:31] Jeff: Yeah, [00:15:32] Christina: Genuinely. [00:15:33] Brett: I like how ground news in their summary of this story. Uh, the third point was Crouch, CrowdStrike shares are down. And their competitor’s shares are up. Well, no shit. [00:15:47] Christina: Yeah. I mean, as they freaking should be. Um, cause they, this is a company that, uh, like has lobbied the hell out of various governments to basically mandate that anybody who does any sort of, you know, [00:16:00] government or, or, uh, public issued thing, they’re like, Oh no, you have to, um, use, um, us. There’s, there’s no way you’ll be protected and secure without us. [00:16:09] Christina: Please let us have control over all of your systems. And, um, And people, I guess, believe them. And, uh, yeah. This is a [00:16:19] Brett: many people do you think are getting fired? [00:16:21] Christina: I mean, a lot, I hope. Because if a lot aren’t, then what is this for, right? Like, honestly, like, I’m not usually, like, a big proponent of fire, you know, people who make fuckups. But in a case like this, like, literally your job is to You know what I mean? [00:16:34] Christina: Like, like, literally your job is, is you, you are saying to people, trust us for all of your security updates and for your antivirus and ransomware and whatnot, and trust us to protect your systems. And then you push out an update that is either not tested well, or something went wrong, and it breaks, like, half the free world. [00:16:51] Christina: Yeah, a lot of people [00:16:52] Brett: I was gonna say, so you got, you got like, you got a coder, and then you have hopefully like a peer review, and then you have [00:17:00] quality control, and there should have been at least two levels of testing on a, an update with this ram, with these ramifications, if not more. But, so that’s, that’s three, that’s three people slash teams that shouldn’t have a job. [00:17:17] Christina: right. Yeah. I mean, and their bosses, whatever their, whatever their process is, because this had to be a breakdown in process, right? Like, obviously they have processes to, to test, um, but clearly they’re not good enough. It was interesting. Um, I, I was able to find some proof that like, obviously people are, are understandably like taking digs at Windows right now. [00:17:37] Christina: The truth is this could have happened with any platform that CrowdStrike supports. It didn’t, but it could have. And in fact, I found evidence that in April and May, there were massive, like, kernel panics that happened on both Debian and Red Hat because of CrowdStrike. But I guess, you know, they just don’t have the same, um, like, [00:17:56] Brett: really, maybe it’s not a matter of people getting fired. Maybe it’s a [00:18:00] matter of CrowdStrike going bankrupt. [00:18:02] Christina: I mean, yeah, maybe. The CEO, his initial response, he didn’t even apologize. He was just like, Oh, we had an issue. Blah, blah, blah. And he didn’t even bother to say sorry. MoFo, read the room. Like, airports and hospitals and 911 systems are down. [00:18:19] Jeff: 911 systems, you know, when you fucking apologize is when hospitals and 911 [00:18:23] Christina: Exactly. Exactly. [00:18:25] Jeff: definitely a time to apologize no matter what your lawyer says. [00:18:28] Christina: Right, exactly. And then, exactly. Fuck your lawyer. Oh, we can’t show, you know, responsibility. You are responsible, motherfucker. You are responsible, like, literally. And also, again, you’re the people who have lobbied, you know, like, governments and institutions and been like, oh, you have to use us if you want to be safe and secure, right? [00:18:44] Christina: So if you’re telling people you’re good enough to be in those spaces, well then, fuck you. Buck stops with you, asshole. Um, he finally like released a slightly better statement, slightly, where he did put in an apology, but like, it’s still so minor and it’s still so like, [00:19:00] trying to just be like, Oh, this wasn’t a security incident. [00:19:03] Christina: Fuck off. Like, I don’t think people care about the nuances [00:19:07] Jeff: it is now. [00:19:08] Christina: Yeah. [00:19:09] Sponsor: 1Password [00:19:09] Brett: You, you would not believe how well I can segue this from here to our sponsor for today and then into our next topic. Man, I, my brain’s working on like, it’s like 40 chests [00:19:22] Jeff: what that is right now? That’s birthday [00:19:24] Christina: I was going to say, this is birthday brain. Hell yeah. [00:19:26] Brett: yes. So, speaking of safety and security, our sponsor today is 1Password, which we are huge fans of, and we will admit at the top that none of us have used it for IAM and MDM, so we can’t personally vouch for this aspect of 1Password. [00:19:46] Brett: But given my absolute faith in 1Password, I guarantee you it’s a great solution. So, listen up. Imagine your company’s security like the quad of a college campus. There are nice brick paths in between the [00:20:00] buildings. Those are the company owned devices, IT approved apps, and managed employee identities. And then there are the paths that people actually use, the shortcuts worn through the grass that are the actual straightest line from point A to point B. [00:20:13] Brett: Those are unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps, and non employee identities like contractors. Most security tools only work on those happy brick paths, but a lot of security problems take place on the shortcuts. 1Password Extended Access Management is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, apps, and identities under your control. [00:20:37] Brett: It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t touch. It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s available now to companies with Okta, and coming later this year to Google [00:21:00] Workspace and Microsoft Office. [00:21:01] Brett: Entra? Entra? Christina? [00:21:04] Christina: Intra. It used to be Azure AD. It used to be Active Directory, but yeah, [00:21:08] Brett: There you go. Check it out at 1password. com slash product slash xam. That’s 1password. com slash product slash xam. [00:21:20] Sponsor bonus content [00:21:20] Brett: And then just to tag onto this, uh, there was a big hullabaloo around 1Password becoming an Electron app. But honestly, I haven’t even noticed. Uh, it’s been, it’s, the system integration is still so tight. [00:21:36] Brett: I just, I don’t care. It’s an Electron app done right. [00:21:40] Christina: Yeah, I fully agree. [00:21:42] Jeff: and if that read didn’t touch you, I just hear, I mean, I, one password is such, maybe as much an important part of my life as one or two of Brett’s creations, um, in terms of just how much I access it and use it every single day. And I have [00:22:00] never, ever had a problem. They only get. Better, they added the SSH business not long ago. [00:22:05] Jeff: I mean, maybe a year ago now, but like, they just. It’s incredible. And I don’t even know, like, I don’t even know what life is without it, even though there are other options. And also I’m in the process of doing some like business operations stuff for our company and, and realize that a number of our employees may or may not, don’t listen hackers, be using 1Password as directed. [00:22:27] Jeff: And so I’m also in the midst of like, writing sort of like a memo that’s like, here’s why you have to do it. Here’s how you use it. And here’s, um, and here’s, You know, here’s what will happen to you if you don’t. And just like having to kind of look into the features and, and the way this thing works today in order to write that. [00:22:44] Jeff: So I can help people get set up. That’s like, this fucking thing is amazing. It’s amazing. Thank you. 1Password. Also, I finally stopped about three years ago, uh, uh, using the same password for everything. It was one thing that 1Password was telling me not to do forever, but I was like, I can’t listen, [00:23:00] but now I do. [00:23:00] Jeff: So fuck you hackers. [00:23:01] Brett: every time you open it up into like an edit window, it’ll tell you, a watch tower will tell you if the site. Uh, had experienced a breach and B, it will tell you if 2FA is available and you haven’t set it up and it will tell you if, uh, passkeys are available and you haven’t set it up, um, which is super handy when you have, as most people on the internet these days do, you know, a hundred, some different logins for a hundred different sites, uh, and you want to use a different password on everyone. [00:23:34] Brett: You want everything to be as secure as possible. Yeah. And. And, uh, to the best of my knowledge, 1Password is one of the few password apps that have never experienced, uh, a major breach. Um, uh, uh, unlike LastPass, for example. [00:23:53] Christina: Yeah, yeah. I, I’ve been, like, I don’t know what my passwords are and I haven’t for, I guess, going on, going on 18 years [00:24:00] because I, [00:24:00] Brett: couldn’t possibly, yeah. [00:24:01] Christina: because I’ve been using one password, I guess, since probably 2007, so I guess 17 years. And I, I don’t know my passwords. I don’t know them. And, uh, and [00:24:08] Brett: all my passwords are random 20 character strings. There’s no way I could know my password. [00:24:14] Christina: Uh, and, and, and I will just give a little bit of love to the, like, the passkey, um, support. Like, I, I know that there are, are some things that are, you know, just because passkeys, there’s some stuff that isn’t figured out, like, exporting and whatnot. But, like, if you use passkeys on multiple devices, that, especially if they’re not all Apple devices, 1Password, in my opinion, is the best solution because it does, it’ll sync everywhere. [00:24:35] Christina: So a passkey that I have, you know, on like, uh, uh, you know, will work on Linux or on Windows or on my Mac or my iPhone or on whatever, which is really, really great. So, [00:24:46] Jeff: Yeah. Christina loves it on Arch Linux. Big. Big fan. She built, she built that from the ground. I mean, I have to, [00:24:52] Christina: I, I, yeah, yeah, I, I, I did. And because I’m going to tell everybody, you know, that I use Arch. But no, they, I, they do actually have a Linux client. [00:24:58] Christina: So, good [00:25:00] stuff. [00:25:00] Jeff: because this is almost as fun as toilets. Um, I just, a couple of things I want to add. One is that one thing I’ve started using more and more is in one password. You can send somebody a password, login information, and you can choose that it only goes that person. You can say it can only be used once. You can say it can be used for seven days. [00:25:15] Jeff: I use that all the time. And that became like, The importance of that became really incredible when I found an onboarding document in our, in our files that had, it was like a Google doc with all of our key passwords in it, despite the fact that we have one password. The other thing I want to say is that there is nothing more fun. [00:25:29] Jeff: Literally you could pass time doing this. If you were ever just kind of like bored, you were waiting at the doctor’s office. Just start generate, generating three word passwords. I’m going to do a few right now in one password. Okay. Here’s one, Kate. Pasty, Punt. That’s fun. Okay, here’s another one. Here’s another one. [00:25:44] Jeff: Imply, Soften, Eclat, Perplex, Kohlrabi, Posit. I mean, come on, this is a great time. [00:25:51] Brett: So, yeah, the space is a valid character in passwords. And once I realized that, uh, it increased my [00:26:00] usage of random three or four word, just random combinations of words, which on their own, uh, it becomes, uh, Not as unguessable as a 20 character random string with symbols, but, uh, but kind of on par. So like, um, Weasel, Monkey, Buttstuff can be a great password. [00:26:25] Jeff: Totally. Yeah. And by the way, everybody, when you make your O’s, zeros, it’s not helping you. [00:26:30] Brett: Yeah, right. [00:26:31] Jeff: but that’s, that’s another story [00:26:33] Brett: When you do, when you use leet speak, that’s, uh, that’s in most dictionaries. [00:26:37] Jeff: when you [00:26:37] Christina: Yeah, it is at this [00:26:38] Jeff: not helping you. [00:26:40] Christina: Unfortunately, we’ve all used, you know, whatever, like, the password, like, with one on the end. Like, we’ve all done that enough times that everybody knows. And the elite speak is unfortunately now in the dictionaries because, yeah, we’ve, enough breaches have happened and, uh, everyone knows our, uh, our [00:27:00] tells. [00:27:00] Jeff: But yeah, we reviewed one of those annual reports of most commonly used passwords once on this podcast. That is a really good time as well. It’s, it’s also humbling. [00:27:09] Christina: it really is humbling. You’re like, yeah, and this is why I don’t want to know what any of them are. Like, genuinely, like, I don’t [00:27:13] Jeff: Yeah, you do not want to know what any of them are. Cause you know what doesn’t come up? Zero, A, two, asterisk, four, three, A, B, capital C. Never comes up in the top used passwords. [00:27:24] Christina: No. No. And it’s great, too. Sorry, go on. [00:27:28] Brett: no, I was about to change topics, but you got more to say? Go for [00:27:31] Christina: No, I’m done. I’m done. [00:27:33] Reviving TUAW: A Controversial Story [00:27:33] Brett: So one of the people affected by the CrowdStrike problem, uh, was Tim Stevens, who could not board a flight and got stuck. And you may remember Tim Stevens as the editor of Engadget. Which, for years now, has hosted the archives of a little blog called the Unofficial Apple Web Blog. [00:27:58] Brett: Um, which was, [00:28:00] which was dead. You go to tua. com and it would redirect you to mGadget. But, Um, Yahoo, which now owns the 2R domain, or owned, past tense, sold it to a holding company which pulled some shenanigans. You want to tell us about [00:28:19] Jeff: This story, I’m just going to spoil it. The story is insane. And also I want to come back to your pronunciation of Yahoo later. [00:28:25] Christina: Yahoo! [00:28:28] Jeff: Yahoo! [00:28:30] Brett: I’m sorry, I just can’t do the inflection right. [00:28:32] Christina: Well, no, I think, I think we all just watched the, the ads so many times. Yahoo! [00:28:38] Jeff: Yahoo! [00:28:38] Christina: yeah. Um, anyway, yeah. Okay, so, this goes back about, um, two weeks now, as, as you’ll hear this. I was sick, actually. And I think this is important to know, because I, I, I, I’m very proud of myself for accomplishing what I accomplished while I had the stomach flu. [00:28:54] Christina: And John Gruber sent me a link to tuaw. com and it [00:29:00] had my byline on it. And I was like, laughing. I was like, okay, what is this? And then it turned out, I looked at it and I was like, why is this site still alive? Because as Brett mentioned, the site had been dead for close to 10 years. Well, it had been dead for, for close to close to 10, because it shut down in 2015. [00:29:17] Christina: And, um, It was just redirecting to engadget. com, not even redirecting to the article links, just a full on redirect. And I was like, okay, why is this here? And then I look at this face and I see this face that is not mine, but I see, you know, byline Christina Warren, and I’m seeing articles written. And I was, at first I’d assumed that maybe somebody had bought the domain and they were like trying to backfill some of the past articles. [00:29:39] Christina: I was like, okay, what is this? And then I looked a little closer and I realized, no, the site is back and they’re publishing new articles. Um, which, you know, look, that’s a thing. If Yahoo, the current owners of the AOL brands, Apollo Global, whatever, if they want to sell, uh, you know, an old domain because they think they can make a few dollars off of it, fine. [00:29:59] Christina: If someone wants to try to [00:30:00] revive the brand, fine. But what was odd to me is that My name looked like I was still publishing new articles in July 2024. I’m like, okay, what is this? Right. And so I look further into it and I look at the about page and all of the author names are historical old school authors of TUAW. [00:30:19] Christina: And so Brett’s name is there. Uh, uh, Victor’s name is there. Mike Rose’s name is there. Like everybody that we used to work with back in the day is there, but the photos are. AI generated. No, no. I mean, and this honestly pissed me off. I was like, could you at least have made me hotter? Like, genuinely, like that, that was like the biggest insult and injury. [00:30:39] Christina: So what they did, um, according to their own about page, they said that they acquired the domain only and not the content, but that they quote, meticulously rewrote the content using archive. [00:30:54] Jeff: Meticulously rewrote. [00:30:55] Christina: yeah, yeah, they said that they meticulously rewrote the content, um, [00:31:00] using stuff that was on archive. [00:31:01] Christina: org and, um, uh, to, to, to match, uh, current standards, which, okay. Um, and, and then they were publishing these things that way. So I, of course, immediately am mad and I’m sick, right? So I, [00:31:15] Jeff: Oh my god, I would have been sick if I weren’t sick [00:31:18] Christina: totally, totally. [00:31:19] Jeff: mean, that is awful. [00:31:20] Christina: I mean, cause, cause here’s the thing, like, we’ve seen this happen before. The hairpin is, is one recent example where like domains expire and somebody buys it and then they go through the archives to try to recreate the backlinks and, and sometimes the, you know, they’re somewhat adjusted, but whatnot, and, and we see that sort of thing before. [00:31:36] Christina: Um, it’s happened for years. It’s gross, but it’s a thing. What I, what I did not expect genuinely was for someone to try to revive a site and then start publishing new content. under the names of the people who used to work there. And then what got even worse is I realized that the articles that were like the past backlinks were not the same. [00:31:56] Christina: The slugs were the same. The articles had slightly, [00:32:00] sometimes the same headlines, sometimes slightly different, um, different authors attached. And then the content had been rewritten because what they did is they just, used AI to rewrite the content they found on archive. org, thinking I guess that somehow that would get them around the plagiarism issues, the copyright infringement issues, which it doesn’t. [00:32:17] Christina: Um, so I was big mad. And so I posted about it on Twitter and on threads and at Mastodon, and then I sent a strongly worded email to the email address that was on this site saying, take my name down. I’m immediately, or else I will contact, you know, I will get lawyers involved. You know, I’m, I’m a public figure. [00:32:36] Christina: This is going to harm, you know, my professional prospects. I don’t want any association with you. This is not my work. Fuck off. I didn’t use the fuck off part, but I was just like, take it, take it down immediately. And I didn’t expect anything. I didn’t expect them to respond, um, because I was like, I don’t know where they’re based, you know, I don’t know what my legal options are. [00:32:53] Christina: I was like, I will, in my mind, I was like, okay, I will contact a lawyer and send a cease and desist, but whatever. Um, [00:33:00] and then much to my surprise and delight, the tech press saw my posts and Engadget, 404 Media, uh, Jason Snell at Six Colors, uh, The Verge, and then later on, uh, people like Ars Technica and other places wrote about it too, all wrote about this. [00:33:18] Christina: And um, Ernie Smith from TDM was able to find out who is behind this shady company. And it’s this guy who um, he also did something similar to iLounge, although it seems like he might have officially bought that from the old iLounge owner. But like, they’ve done this before where like, you know, just buys like old kind of dead brands and, and then starts pumping out what looks like plagiarized content. [00:33:42] Christina: Um, You know, full of probably, you know, who even knows if they have affiliate links, but you know, just, I don’t know what their business model is, but he’s just been doing this stuff. [00:33:53] Brett: is what’s the fucking point? [00:33:55] Christina: Yeah, exactly. have no idea. I don’t, I don’t get it. [00:33:59] AI Articles and Identity Theft [00:33:59] Brett: [00:34:00] the end game of [00:34:01] Christina: I don’t either, because this is such a weird, like many years old strategy, you know, of trying to do something like Google doesn’t rank these things well anymore. [00:34:08] Christina: So I don’t even understand why this is here. Um, [00:34:11] Brett: if most of it was done with AI, like it’s still a lot of effort to put into what end, like, and like you said, this, like, I didn’t want these AI regurgitated articles coming up in Google searches for my name, [00:34:26] Christina: right. I mean, that, that was my primary concern, right? Was, I was like, I don’t want people, because for better or worse, like you’re the same way, Brett, like people associate us with TUAW and I don’t want people seeing things coming up and thinking, Oh, Christina’s writing for this site again, or Christina wrote this, right? [00:34:40] Christina: I’m like, absolutely not. So fortunately, um, after the first, um, Press came out, they started to change the names. Like first my byline was changed from Christina to Christina Warren to Christina, which I thought was funny. And then it was changed to Mary Brown and then they started to change everyone else’s bylines. [00:34:57] Christina: Now the past links that they’ve recreated, [00:35:00] like I don’t think there’s a whole lot we can do about that, but at least they don’t have our names associated with it. So that at least started within like The first six hours. [00:35:08] The Resurrection of Old Content [00:35:08] Christina: But then, and then more people wrote about it and it became kind of a second day story, which, which I didn’t expect. [00:35:14] Christina: Um, but um, like I said, what’s funny though is that because people figure out who this guy was, he then started to try to delete himself off the internet, which was really funny. Like, he started to try to, like, he started to try to hide, like, like, taking away articles that he’d clearly, like, self written about himself to make him seem like he was, like, this big shot. [00:35:34] Christina: Um, and, and, you know, removing his name from some other pages. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, you, you think you can hide, now you’re just making this more interesting. Now we just really want to track down. Who you are, motherfucker. But yeah, what a, [00:35:46] Jeff: yeah. Now it’s a game. [00:35:48] Reflecting on Past Work [00:35:48] Christina: yeah, but, but what a, what a weird thing to like find a site you wrote for in college, you know, like resuscitated from the dead with a photo that’s not yours, but your byline.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Jeff: Yeah, for Ichi, when was your last actual byline for I [00:36:04] Christina: Uh, for me, it was 2009. Brett, you worked there a lot longer. Cause I know you, you went on to work at AOL proper. [00:36:09] Brett: Right, that’s the thing is I kind of, I slowed down my blogging onto uh, when I started working for, as you call it, AOL Proper. [00:36:18] Jeff: like that, it’s like L. A. proper. [00:36:20] Brett: so I don’t remember what the last article I wrote was, but it would be prior to 2009 probably. [00:36:29] Christina: No, I think you were probably after that. I think you were after that. Yeah, but [00:36:32] Brett: wrote a couple here and there. Um, sometimes just to test new integrations I was building into Blogsmith. [00:36:40] Christina: yeah, because I don’t, I, I, I think, I think you started working for them like after I left, but I could be wrong. But regardless, it’s been a very long time for both of us. And so it was a weird thing to see it. And then like, again, this is a site that’s been dead for 10 years. So, you know, um, uh, Steve Sandy, I saw a comment that he made on Apple Insider that [00:37:00] showed that like, I guess Yahoo had approached him two weeks before all this was discovered, offering like him to buy the domain because he’d started like a, a similar site to Chua after the fact. [00:37:12] Christina: Um, but, but he’s retired and, and, and super into Jesus now. So he was not interested, but, um, [00:37:19] Brett: I feel like he always was, he just knew enough to keep his mouth shut. In polite company. [00:37:24] Christina: right, right. Well now that seems like [00:37:26] Jeff: What’s that, what’s that skill like? I don’t have that muscle. [00:37:29] Christina: But, uh, but, but he, he was not interested. And so, you know, it seems like, I guess they were looking at their assets. We’re like, Oh, well, maybe we can sell this cause it’s a four letter domain name and we can get value out of it. I don’t know. [00:37:40] The Sale of Content Rights [00:37:40] Christina: I just, what, what, what annoys me? [00:37:42] Christina: Like, I’m annoyed with a few things. Like, obviously my, my main annoyance is with like the, you know, grifter assholes who did this and tried to steal our identities. Um, but I’m also pissed off at like Yahoo, Apollo Global, whatever for selling this stuff. Just so haphazardly because it’s like it’s like[00:38:00] [00:38:00] Brett: could not, it couldn’t have been that profitable. [00:38:02] Christina: what I’m saying like the 15 grand you got No, that’s what I’m saying because they couldn’t right it turned out Mike Schramm looked back through his or instead of Brad Linder, Brad Linder looked back through his contract and found like and I went back and Found mine too like we owned The rights to our content, um, uh, AOL, Weblogs, Inc., [00:38:20] Christina: whatever, had a perpetual license to, a non exclusive perpetual license to, you know, uh, republish it, but we owned our content, so they couldn’t sell the content. But like, yeah, it had to be like between five and 15 grand. I’m sure it was a cheap sale. You’re Apollo Global. What are you getting out of this? [00:38:38] Christina: Like, somebody felt, somebody felt like, Oh, we’re, we’re doing super well here, guys. Yeah. Well, I hope that the bad publicity You know, shamed you of that, like, notion, but yeah, very frustrating, but very funny. I, I, I changed my avatar at Work Slack to the AI avatar, and then someone said, you should do that on all of your [00:39:00] socials, and I did that for a few days. [00:39:01] Christina: Um, and, uh, I have a blue check because, um, Elon gave me one, and because of that, like, I had to wait a few more days before I could change it back to my normal face again, which was pretty funny. So [00:39:13] Brett: changed, they changed my, they gave most people full name changes. That’s it. [00:39:17] Christina: they only made yours, like, the, the first [00:39:19] Brett: I’m, I’m Paul Terpstra now, [00:39:22] Christina: Yeah, [00:39:23] Brett: is how I, which is how I almost introduced myself at MacStack when I [00:39:27] Christina: you should have. You should have. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I think if you wanted to, you could probably send an email and be like, you need to make this even more distinctive. I don’t want any Terpstra association, you know, with this, with this site. But [00:39:40] Brett: Yeah, no, I probably should. And they probably, I mean, given how fast they changed all those [00:39:45] Christina: yeah, no, I think they would. I think they would because I think, [00:39:48] Jeff: There’s a potential, [00:39:49] Christina: know. [00:39:50] Jeff: there’s a potential upside that hadn’t occurred to me until just now, because I only saw downside, which is that all of us have posts online. Probably that we’re just like, maybe it’s just like, I have some blog [00:40:00] posts, like from my journalism days where I’m like, Oh, stupid. I was just on, I had a quota and I wrote this thing and I really embarrassed that’s even there. [00:40:07] Jeff: If it gets flooded with fake stuff, then it can be like, I don’t know, is that real or fake? And then nobody can judge you. If I, when I meet people and describe my work or something, and then I imagine them going and Googling me and finding some city pages, which was like a village voice media, all. Alt, you know, weekly thing, post from like 2007. [00:40:26] Jeff: I’m like, Oh God, anything I said is a lie. Anyway, I’m sorry that happened. What a mess. [00:40:33] Christina: Yeah. [00:40:33] Jeff: future. [00:40:34] Christina: I mean, look, thank you, John Gruber for like finding this. He, he was trying to find out why something wasn’t working on his system and he did a search result and it came up in Google. So apparently, you know, because I guess if the, the, the, the domain, because of the number of backlinks I’m, I’m assuming, um, and I guess this is why they did buy the site and why they recreated the backlinks. [00:40:53] Christina: They were able to still rank in Google News. Now that to me is a fundamental Google problem. Like you should look at a site like this. This should [00:41:00] never be allowed to be indexed and be part of. You know, your stuff and to be serving stuff, um, but it was already getting served there. And so he was surprised. [00:41:07] Christina: And at first, like I said, like, I didn’t even know what I was looking at at first. And then I looked closer and I was like, wait a minute, they’re publishing new content. Okay. Absolutely not. Like, [00:41:16] Brett: well, so my first thought was they, they bought it all and like recreated it and then just didn’t bother to, because like you said, the slugs didn’t change and the slugs contained the date, uh, which, which always disagreed with the published date. In the article itself, and I thought that was just laziness, but then I started reading my so called posts and did not, A, half the time, I didn’t remember writing about half the topics I was, had a byline on, and the ones that I did, the ones that I did remember, I’m like, that doesn’t sound like me. [00:41:51] Brett: I, I would have, I would have written that more tongue in cheek. I, I know myself better than that. [00:41:56] Christina: know, and you did, it was funny because, uh, The Verge did a, did a [00:42:00] comparison between like the same post with the, with different, with the same link, like from an art, one from archive and one, the rewritten one to show like what the differences were. And, um, uh, Jason from 404 Media, um, who, who was great, who I talked to at length about, um, uh, for the story and who was very kind and quoted me a lot. [00:42:17] Christina: Um, he, um, did the same thing. Like, I was on the phone with him talking to him about it. And we were both going through things together and like finding like the differences in how the rewrites had happened. And then there were certain things that we would just like cut off. Like it’s like the archive didn’t grab the full thing of the page. [00:42:33] Christina: And so it would just like sentences would like just cut off mid sentence in certain posts, just the laziest implementation. [00:42:39] Brett: Yeah, if you, if you read that 404 article, you would think Christina was the only writer at 2A. [00:42:46] Christina: Well, I’m sorry, but I, I, but also, never, [00:42:50] Brett: he, uh, he asked me for a comment and I just wrote back, this is terrible. I hope we can find some recourse. That was like, at which I think he did quote, [00:42:59] Christina: did quote, he [00:43:00] quoted you in SRAM and I was just, I was willing to get on the phone because here’s the thing about me, I will never, um, like, take, you know, like, lose the opportunity to, you know, take a bad situation and turn it into good publicity. Like, you know what I mean? Like, [00:43:15] Jeff: Can we just say 404 Media, it is, it feels like a death wish to name your, your organization this, and I’m referring to all the times I go to my old stories and get a 404 error. Uh, it’s a little bit of a, you know, you don’t want that to be a self fulfilling prophecy. [00:43:32] Brett: Right. [00:43:32] Christina: Uh, they’re a great site, though. Uh, they’re, they’re, um, a, um, a, um, like, um, author owned site, kind of like Defector. It’s a bunch of people who used [00:43:39] Brett: They’re, they’re new, right? [00:43:40] Christina: yeah, used to be the motherboard team, and they’ve started it. They’re really, really good. Um, I, I pay for them. They do really great work. Um, they’re gonna be at XOXO, and so I’m looking forward to seeing them, um, there. [00:43:51] Christina: But yeah, they’re, they’re really good people. So, [00:43:54] Jeff: I feel like used to be advised has to be asterisks like the good ones. [00:43:57] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, no, but this is, this is, [00:44:00] this is, this is, this is, uh, uh, Jason Peebler and, and, and Joseph Cox and, um, [00:44:04] Jeff: Yeah, the good ones. So [00:44:06] Christina: uh, um, Sam Cole, um, and, um, Emmanuel Myberg. So yeah, really good people, uh, basically like the tech version of Defector. So, uh, happy, happy for them. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, it was very weird, very weird thing that happened to us last week, Brett. [00:44:23] Christina: Like, it was nice though. It Well, it was weird, too, because, like, we got, I got an email, I, I saw, like, Mike Schramm’s email about the 404 request before I even saw Jason’s email in my inbox. And I was like, you know, it was funny because we got, like, this, this kind of group email from people, you know, some people you have, I haven’t talked to in, like, 15 [00:44:40] Brett: Right. It [00:44:41] Christina: was kind of nice. It was. It was, it was, it was really, in a really terrible way, but it was also, like, glad everybody’s doing well, you know? [00:44:48] Jeff: Yeah, nice way to check in. [00:44:50] Macstock Reunion [00:44:50] Brett: of reunions, uh, last weekend was Macstock, um, [00:44:55] Christina: Tell us about that. [00:44:56] Brett: was not heavily attended, [00:45:00] um, but the people that were there were so great to connect with. Um, I actually had a really good connection with Dave Hamilton from our network, Backbeat Media. Um, I have a little Queerclick. Um, of like two gay guys and, uh, various other just like trans and queer people. [00:45:23] Brett: And I don’t, it wasn’t ever intentionally a queer click. Um, it just kind of, you know, you attract a certain type of person and you become. Um, but that’s super fun. And then like all the podcasters, uh, that I like were there and I gave a talk and right before my talk, like I had peppered some dad jokes into my talk as I am want to do, um, and right before my talk, Elle text me a real bad one. [00:45:55] Brett: So I decided to open with it before I said anything I said, [00:46:00] and I got full crowd participation on this. I said, knock, knock. [00:46:04] Christina: Who’s there? [00:46:06] Brett: Yoda Lady. [00:46:07] Christina: Yoda lady who? That’s funny. [00:46:10] Brett: and it, like, everyone did it. And then I just paused. And then there was great laughter. I was, I was amazed how well it went over. Um, my other ones were, uh, Where Do Bad Rainbows Go? [00:46:25] Brett: To Prism. It’s a, it’s a light, no, it’s a light sentence, but it gives them time to reflect. Um, and This Morning I Tried To Catch Fog, But I Missed. [00:46:37] Jeff: Oh man, [00:46:39] Brett: And then, you know, just a slight pause and then you just move on with your talk. It works well. It’s my, it’s my formula. [00:46:46] Christina: It’s your, it’s your dad, it’s your dad joke formula. [00:46:48] Brett: yeah, I have a dad joke formula. My first year, I actually had a slide that just said, um, pause for laughter after one of those jokes. [00:46:58] Brett: And then I just like moved on to the [00:47:00] next slide. Um, I, I, I do, I do funny presentations. I’m pretty good at funny. I also think like I covered a lot of stuff. My, my focus was smart mailboxes. Which, as usual, like the first year I did something kind of out there was I just did a deep dive on Spotlight. And I couldn’t believe the number of people who A, hadn’t used Spotlight, or B, didn’t realize like how powerful it was. [00:47:26] Brett: And this is five operating systems ago. And then I did one on tagging and nobody Nobody had, this is right after Finder tags, like after they Sherlocked OpenMeta. Um, I guess, is it Sherlocking if it was free software? Um, [00:47:46] Christina: absolutely. [00:47:47] Brett: yeah, so, so I did tagging and nobody, nobody had been using tagging. Um, and I still get people at MaxSoc coming up to me asking me questions about tags because they started using them after [00:48:00] my talk. [00:48:01] Brett: Um, yeah, it’s, it’s a blast. I, I love MaxSac. Like I said, I think there were a total of 150 people dead this [00:48:08] Christina: I mean, I still [00:48:08] Brett: but every Every one of them was super cool. We had so much fun. Um, the power went out in the hotel when we were all hanging out at the bar. Um, so it’s pitch black and I’m just walking around gently touching people’s butts so they think they’re being pickpocketed. Good times. It was just good times. [00:48:29] Christina: That’s cool. That’s awesome. I love that. [00:48:36] Brett: Yeah, [00:48:36] Jeff: the mall, [00:48:37] Brett: one of these years I’ll get, I’ll get one or both of you to come. Um, it’s not, it’s not a prestigious event like Christina is used to going [00:48:47] Christina: Oh, come on. It’s not a matter of that. It’s really more of a time of, like, finding, like, making sure I can, like, make the, like, [00:48:52] Brett: Yeah, it’s a longer trip for you than it is for us. Um, which I understand. Uh, and I brought Erin there [00:49:00] last year, two years ago. Um, my coworker Erin and she gave a talk and I felt bad for bringing her. Um, [00:49:10] Jeff: she should have been on the stage, like the show you and I saw two weeks ago. [00:49:15] Brett: right, oh my God. But the audience at MaxDocSkews, um, Like 70 year old white guy, um, which is not the demographic for a young trans woman to give a talk on, uh, logic. [00:49:31] Jeff: the demographic for your [00:49:33] Christina: What is her band? Isn’t her band called Genital Shame? [00:49:36] Jeff: Genital Shame. Yeah, did you talk Brett and I went to see Genital Shame. [00:49:40] Brett: I think we talked about it a bit last time, but yeah, it was outstanding. I, yeah, I’m a huge genital shame fan now, which is a weird sentence to say without context. Which I feel is the point of the band name, just to make it, uh, not [00:50:00] blatantly offensive, but awkward. It’s an awkward, it’s an awkward thing to [00:50:04] Jeff: Yeah, totally. It’s great. [00:50:06] Brett: Yeah. All right. [00:50:09] GrAPPtitude: App Recommendations [00:50:09] Brett: Um, should we get to GrAPPtitude? [00:50:11] Jeff: wa. [00:50:12] Christina: let’s do it. [00:50:13] Brett: Um, I’ll kick it off cause I have a, I have a new one. I learned about this app from Mike Schmitz at MacStack. [00:50:20] Christina: Nice. [00:50:22] Brett: I have not used it extensively yet, but I’ve used it enough that dropping the 80 for an individual license was kind of a no brainer. So it’s called ScreenStudio. [00:50:34] Brett: I’m sorry. I don’t have notifications turned off. Um, I had, it’s called, it’s from Dave Hamilton. Um, and I can only read the preview of it and I don’t know where it goes, but, um, so ScreenStudio is kind of like ScreenFlow automated. So all this stuff, so ScreenFlow is a screen recording app that can do, uh, full screen recordings and then you can [00:51:00] add callouts and focus windows and all that fun stuff to make it a fun, watchable video. [00:51:07] Brett: But, ScreenStudio can automate the whole idea of like focusing where you’re clicking, panning to it, making your mouse cursor bigger, and you can just kind of record your screen and it will automate the process of creating a truly informative screen recording out of it. And 100 percent worth 80 bucks. I mean, I think ScreenFlow costs 99 [00:51:37] Jeff: about every year, practically. [00:51:39] Christina: Yeah. I mean, I mean, that’s basically how it works. Yeah. I’ve, um, I haven’t bought ScreenStudio yet, but I have a lot of friends who have, and it’s, um, uh, people have talked about how great it is. So yeah, it, it, [00:51:48] Brett: much, it’s much bandied about. [00:51:50] Jeff: Much bandied about. I’m going to try this. That’s really awesome. [00:51:54] Christina: cause it really helps you do. [00:51:55] Brett: trial. You can give it a shot. [00:51:57] Christina: Yeah. Cause I think the thing that’s really nice about it is like, it makes it really [00:52:00] easy to do like the kind of the, the zooming effects and, and things like that, like to make it look really slick and, and the editing from what I understand is a lot faster. So a lot of my, a lot of my colleagues are really like it. [00:52:10] Brett: you don’t get all the multi track, uh, kind of power of Screen Studio or ScreenFlow. I love editing in ScreenFlow. Um, I will load in, if I just need to do cuts and fades on something rather than dealing with like DaVinci Resolve or. or Final Cut. I’ll just load it in ScreenFlow and do my quick edits and I have all the shortcuts set up on my, um, between my Stream Deck and my Shuttle Express. [00:52:42] Brett: I can flip through editing in seconds. Um, but, You do have decent editing and faster editing in ScreenStudio. And like you said, like, to add, uh, to make your cursor bigger in ScreenFlow, it’s a matter of selecting the [00:53:00] clip, um, and it doesn’t, if you’ve split the clip at any point, now you have to join clips, and then you add a callout, and then you set the settings for the cursor, blow it up to the size you want, add builds, add inouts, and by the time you’re done, it looks great, but you just spent. [00:53:17] Brett: Uh, three, four minutes blowing up your mouse [00:53:20] Jeff: It sounds like, okay, so let’s, let’s imagine a sort of flow chart here. So in a way it’s like you start with CleanShot to meet your initial screen, you know, screencast needs, right? Then maybe it’s, it’s the ScreenStudio, which is somewhere between ScreenShot And ScreenFlow. So you can, I can imagine the use for all of them [00:53:39] Brett: When you say screen, do you mean clean shot? [00:53:41] Jeff: CleanShot. Did I say ScreenShot? [00:53:42] Brett: You said screenshot, [00:53:44] Christina: But I understood what you were saying as, I understood what you were [00:53:46] Jeff: CleanShot, everybody. Yeah, that’s all I got. [00:53:51] Brett: clean shot to screen studio. Yeah. We could make one of those, which OS is best for you [00:53:56] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [00:53:57] Christina: No, I mean, I think that, I think that’s exactly right. And I think for a lot of [00:54:00] people, like, I think like, again, like if you’re making a course, if you’re doing something where what is, what’s being published, you know, you need to really have like the power, like you said, the multi tracks and stuff, like something like ScreenFlow or Camtasia or frankly, even DaVinci Resolve or, or, you know, Final Cut or whatever is going to be better for you. [00:54:15] Christina: But, um, yeah. But, um, based on what my colleagues have said, like, ScreenStudio is really, really good. And I think it’s also nice, like, you can set, like, what the background of your stuff looks like. And I think just, like, it’s just, it’s, it’s been, you know, defined in a much more modern way. Which I [00:54:31] Brett: Yeah. And you can, you can save, you can save presets for doing like backgrounds on, uh, isolated windows or even like iPhone recordings and yeah. Um, Yeah, it [00:54:45] Jeff: I tell you a cautionary auto zoom story? [00:54:48] Brett: yes. [00:54:49] Jeff: So I was meeting with a client once and she was at her desk and they had, uh, they had one of those situations where you had like a camera that would auto zoom to you or whatever. And it was like a little [00:55:00] bit above her head, probably like eight or 10 inches. [00:55:03] Jeff: And it kept zooming in tight on her cleavage. And then zooming back. And I was, I had to turn off the video. I had to turn off the video. Cause I was like, I’m not going to say anything, but your cleavage has given off face vibes to your camera. I don’t know what, I don’t know what that means even, but you should know, but I’m not going to tell you. [00:55:21] Jeff: Uh, it was the most awkward, and it happened like five times in like 15 minutes. It just kept going. Anyway. [00:55:29] Brett: believe the correct sound effect is Awooga. [00:55:34] Jeff: Anyway. [00:55:35] Brett: Alright, who’s next? [00:55:37] Christina: Um, I’ll go. Um, so my pick is, uh, Kaleidoscope 5 and, uh, cause that just came out this week. And, uh, Kaleidoscope we’ve talked about before, um, is, uh, it’s a longtime Mac app, a diff app, a diff tool, uh, that has, uh, changed, um, ownership hands a number of times, but the current owners who bought it, I think probably two years ago have done a really, really good job, [00:56:00] I think, with like, uh, Like, like they not only did completely rewrite the app and, and kind of bring back like all the good things that with it, but they’ve improved it so much. [00:56:10] Brett: many of these apps change hands and then wither. And Kaleidoscope is, in the two years, I think they’ve been through two major version [00:56:19] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. They, they did move to a subscription model, but they’ve been adding things to it all the time, which I think is really great. And so Kaleidoscope 5 came out. Um, one of the main new features, which I really like is that they’ve integrated Git. They’d started doing that in, in the last month. [00:56:32] Christina: Releases, uh, with, with, with a, in and the for, uh, branch, but now it’s actually like built into kaleidoscope. So you can basically just like add in what gi repos you want and basically like as, as your, you know, as you can compare files that are in your, like your working directory. So you can compare like, okay, what are, you know, um, I, how can I compare the different, um, things between my working copy and this one, which I think is a really nice visual way of, of looking at stuff, um, and, and really, really good. [00:56:59] Christina: [00:57:00] Um, they’ve also had, um, you know, uh. Like they have like a change set feature, which is, which is like, um, connected, um, to, to the Git stuff. And so you can kind of like view your change set and your file history of things. Um, and they even have that like as, you know, integrated in with the other apps they integrate with, but yeah, they have integration with Xcode and with VS code and, and JetBrains and, and things like that. [00:57:24] Christina: And [00:57:24] Brett: they, they do all that integration with a service. I mean, like, so they’ve always had some kind of Xcode and even like Safari debugger and integration, but what they added was a service where you can just select a hash for a commit and load up, um, Kaleidoscope, you know, with a right click services or assign a keyboard shortcut to it. [00:57:47] Brett: And so any app that can display a hash for Any commit, uh, you can load that commit automatically in, uh, Kaleidoscope. And like you said, there’s like a full [00:58:00] repo browser, basically. You can, like, compare between branches, compare bet compare between commits. Um, it is, so I use Tower for most of my, uh, graphical Git management. [00:58:14] Brett: And And it does a decent job of branch comparisons, but it also integrates with Kaleidoscope. So I do most of that in Kaleidoscope. I do all of my Git merge conflicts in Kaleidoscope. It’s brilliant for that. But yeah, I love [00:58:31] Jeff: I love Kaleidoscope. [00:58:33] Christina: yeah, really good app. So yeah, version five just came out and I’m, I’m really happy, um, uh, for them. Like, like, again, like most, like Brett said, most apps, when they change hands, like it’s kind of a death spiral. And that certainly was the case with Kaleidoscope, which has changed hands a number of times. [00:58:47] Christina: Like it, you know, it had been like kind of this brilliant diff app. And like, I still like had it, but I was like, [00:58:52] Brett: Yeah, we were all still promoting it, but we’re like, eh, we don’t know its future. [00:58:56] Christina: Exactly. It’s like, this hasn’t been touched in a long time. We don’t know what’s going on. And like, they came [00:59:00] in and they, they did the really, really hard work of reviving it and making it better. And, um, um, so yeah, just huge, uh, huge fan. [00:59:11] Brett: Nice. What you got, Jeff? [00:59:13] Jeff: So I had a, we had someone over for dinner the other night. I’d never met him, him and his wife, and he’s a, he’s a singer and kind of a sound artist. And, um, he was telling me about a project he was working on. It’s really amazing, which is like, he was explaining how like robins, the birds, robins have like a vocabulary and, and they have their own kind of vocabulary that is different from other robins. [00:59:34] Jeff: And, and up to like, I think 30 or 40 individual sort of Let’s say words. And, and he was describing, he’s been recording them with a shotgun mic and, and sampling them. And he pulls up his phone to show me the, the, um, the samples. And it’s just this nice little, you know, soundboard, like nine buttons. And, and he’s, he’s pushing them, showing them, he set it to like half speed, whatever, and it was the most elegant. [00:59:58] Jeff: thing. And I was like, what app is this? [01:00:00] And it was this app called Koala, which is like a sampling app, like just super elegant, super low, like super quick, like, uh, learning curve. And so incredibly fun. And you can just start sampling your voice if you want. And, and this, so this. It gets me to a quiz. I have an 80s quiz for you because this happened to him and I, uh, we, we connected on something really special. [01:00:25] Jeff: I don’t, but here’s the thing. Did you ever watch, let’s call it the Huxtable show, [01:00:29] Christina: Yeah, [01:00:30] Jeff: Cosby show. Okay. So do you happen to remember the episode where the family visits Stevie Wonder in the studio? [01:00:37] Christina: Yeah, one of the best episodes ever. Yeah. [01:00:39] Jeff: Yeah, so basically there’s this moment, it’s iconic in my life and among my friend group and my bands. [01:00:46] Jeff: We’re all the same age and we all watched this episode when it aired in 1984, um, where Theo Huxtable, Stevie Wonder calls him over, Stevie Wonder invites him into the studio so he can show him all the cool shit he does. And it’s an amazing episode, it’s like as good as like a Mr. [01:01:00] Rogers episode basically because you actually learn and I actually learned I’d never heard of a sampler. [01:01:04] Jeff: And so he says to Theo Huxtable. Say something like, what would you say at a party? And Theo goes, jammin on the one. And then it’s instantly a sample, and Stevie Wonder’s on his keyboard going, jammin on the one, jammin on the one, right? Okay, so put that aside. I have never heard that in the wild in my life. [01:01:20] Jeff: So this guy has his sampler app in front of me, and I ask what it is, and he’s like, oh, let me show you how it works. He hits the thing, and we basically both go jammin on the one. And it was the most amazing thing. And what was just really super cool about it was that like for him, um, that was also his first time seeing into a studio and his first time seeing a sampler. [01:01:39] Jeff: And he’s someone who does sample stuff all the time now. So I just want to like shout out to the Huxtable show. Um, for just like creating that opportunity and, and actually I can only imagine that there are many, many people out there for whom this was also like a, uh, just like a sort of portal opening moment. [01:01:57] Jeff: So anyway, Koala is the, is the app. It’s [01:02:00] super awesome. Um, I’m working on pulling samples that I want to put into it now. Uh, and, and I, I love it so much. I already sampled some Mike Watt, uh, bass thumps with his voice, um, especially his song, Big Train. And that was thrilling. [01:02:16] Brett: Nice. [01:02:17] Jeff: So yeah, that’s what I got. [01:02:18] Brett: Cool. I should, I should play with this. I used to be, I used to own like hardware samplers. Um, I had so much fun, like walking around with a field recorder. I [01:02:28] Christina: Oh yeah, I bet. [01:02:30] Brett: music, Nits, Nitsareb kind of stuff. And like recording like grocery carts, smashing together and turning, turning it into a crash cymbal. [01:02:39] Jeff: And you can thousand percent do that here, right? Like it’s just anywhere you are, you just hit the button. It samples from your, from your mic. It’s fricking awesome. [01:02:46] Christina: That’s so [01:02:46] Brett: Love it. I’ll be playing with that. It’s been a long time. [01:02:50] Jeff: Jamming on the one. [01:02:52] Christina: Jammin on [01:02:52] Brett: Jamming on the one. Is that the episode title? [01:02:55] Jeff: the episode title it’s season two episode. I’ll put the link in right now. [01:03:00] Um, [01:03:00] Brett: I was talking about our episode, [01:03:01] Christina: the one. Yeah, I think [01:03:03] Brett: on right [01:03:03] Jeff: episode jamming on the one. Yeah, please. [01:03:05] Christina: on the one. Yeah, I [01:03:06] Brett: Unless it’s about toilets. [01:03:08] Christina: Is that her birthday brain? But I think Jammin on the One. [01:03:12] Jeff: Yeah, [01:03:12] Brett: I like it. [01:03:13] Jeff: I like [01:03:13] Brett: And people will listen all the way through [01:03:16] Jeff: And I’m putting that’s right, [01:03:18] Brett: one hour mark to [01:03:19] Jeff: come from? I’m gonna put the episode clip, the Stevie Wonder [01:03:23] Christina: Yes, please [01:03:24] Jeff: show notes now. [01:03:25] Christina: No, that, that episode is so funny. Uh, like, I think because, because they ran and rerun so much. So I was not really cognizant, like, when it first aired, but it was in, you know, syndication for so long. Like, that’s such a good episode of TV. And [01:03:37] Jeff: Oh, it’s amazing. [01:03:39] Christina: just, like, the, the, the kids, like, the, the, the kid actors, like, genuinely glee that you can see of them being with Stevie, you know, [01:03:46] Jeff: Yeah, like the actors themselves, [01:03:48] Christina: like Lisa Bonet and Malcolm Schmall Warner, like, you can tell they are just, like, besides themselves, because, I mean, which, who wouldn’t be, right? [01:03:56] Christina: But, yeah. [01:03:57] Jeff: Yep. Completely. Yeah. Totally amazing. I [01:04:00] loved that show so, so very much. [01:04:03] Christina: Yeah, it was a great show. It’s very disappointing that we have to, like, view it in a different context. Um, and, and I’ve, I’ve long been, like, a Lisa Bonet, like, wha So, I’ve, like, since probably 2005 or something, like, had, like, complicated feelings about the Cosby show even before all of his other stuff was more known. [01:04:21] Christina: Just because I was like, just because I was like, it was fucked up what you did to, like, the best character on the show, like, you, you guys did Denise Dirty, fuck off. But like, the show itself, like, I, I can separate those things, um, and, uh, yeah. Very, very good TV. And like, that’s just, that’s one of those great sitcom episodes. [01:04:38] Remembering Bob Newhart [01:04:38] Christina: Um, speaking of good sitcoms, and actually from people who are not problematic, um, Bob Newhart died, um, [01:04:45] Jeff: I know. Hi, Bob. I pulled up some Bob Newhart on YouTube [01:04:50] Brett: how, how many years did he make it without becoming problematic? [01:04:53] Jeff: I mean, 94. Yeah. [01:04:56] Brett: that’s a good [01:04:57] Jeff: And my brother, Daryl is my other brother, Daryl. [01:04:59] Brett: [01:05:00] And even had like a recurring and adorable part on the Big Bang [01:05:05] Christina: Yeah, [01:05:05] Jeff: Oh, I never saw him on that. I only see that show in the hotels. [01:05:08] Christina: And, and he was in Elf. And like, like, it’s funny, like, that’s [01:05:11] Jeff: Oh yeah. No. Incredible in [01:05:13] Christina: so good at Elf. Well, I mean, it was funny. Go [01:05:16] Jeff: Go ahead. No, no, you, you. [01:05:17] Christina: No, I was saying, I was having, I was explaining him to some, um, somebody yesterday who I was like, no, you know, if you saw him, you would know who he was. I’m like, I’m not saying that he invented deadpan humor, but I’m not not saying it either. [01:05:28] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. So, uh, can I just share, can we go out on an elf story? Um, so, uh, as my, as my wife said when she posted, uh, about this, like, there are two kinds of people in the world, those who think elf is hilarious and those who don’t. Um, and so she had just read an article and the article was like about the filming of the movie and of course James Caan’s in it. [01:05:53] Jeff: God, what an amazing person and what a bizarre place for him to be, but also [01:05:57] Christina: so good in it too. [01:05:58] Jeff: And, and the [01:06:00] bit was that, I don’t know who was, I don’t know if he was telling the story or Will Ferrell or someone else, but apparently in the, in the shooting of that movie, at some point he said to Will Ferrell, I just don’t think you’re funny. [01:06:09] Jeff: Like, I don’t get you. And, and like the end of it is great because apparently like while he was shooting it, he just could not figure out why this is funny, but saw the movie and realized this is incredible. And I think that the fact that that’s how he felt about Will Ferrell in that movie must contribute to how amazing he is as that father in [01:06:28] Christina: Absolutely. No, without a doubt, without a doubt. Um, also, fun fact about Bob Newhart, he won the Grammy in 1961 for Best New Artist and Best Album of the Year. [01:06:40] Jeff: Hell yeah. Go get him, Bobby. [01:06:43] Brett: he had an album. [01:06:44] Christina: we had a number of comedy albums, right? Like, so it was for a [01:06:46] Brett: Oh, sure, sure. Okay. [01:06:48] Christina: he also won, like, Best Comedy Performance Spoken, but like, that’s how crazy, like, that’s, that’s nuts to think about. Like, the Album of the Year in 1961 was not, like, Uh, a rock record or, you know, like jazz or anything else. [01:06:59] Christina: [01:07:00] It was fucking Bob Newhart. The button down mind of Bob Newhart, one album of the year, which is amazing. Yeah, no, they were very [01:07:08] Brett: that up. I’ve never heard his, his, I’ve never heard his recorded [01:07:12] Christina: I [01:07:12] Jeff: So, Deadpan [01:07:14] Brett: him from TV and that’s about it. [01:07:17] Jeff: and Elf. [01:07:17] Christina: And Elf. Elf. Elf. We love Elf. [01:07:20] Jeff: Well, I’m not going to get any sleep now because all I’m going to think about is Bob Newhart. I might have to watch a few, a few episodes tonight. [01:07:25] Christina: Yeah. [01:07:27] Brett: All right. I love you guys. [01:07:28] Jeff: Hey, love you back. Happy birthday, brother. Get some birthday sleep. [01:07:31] Christina: Get some sleep.

After a brief hiatus, Brett and Christina are back, juggling life’s chaos from sciatica distress and political uproar to mouthwatering taco discoveries and tech marvels. They dissect mental health struggles, modern politics, and the power of local action. Brett spills on his heartwarming mushroom taco experience and flaunts his shiny new iPhone 15 and Sonos Ace headphones, while Christina geeks out over iTerm2’s latest update. With witty banter and unfiltered thoughts, they tackle the iTerm2 AI drama, share their love for the open-source Home Assistant, and more. Plug in your earbuds for a rollercoaster of emotions, tech talk, and foodie fantasies. Sponsor Incognito mode doesn’t stop your network provider from seeing where you visit, but ExpressVPN does. Visit expressvpn.com/overtired to get an extra 3 months free. Highlights https://overtiredpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Highlight-Reel-of-Politics-Money-and-Tacos.mp4 Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Jeff’s Absence 00:46 Discussing Back Pain and Sciatica 01:52 Political Anxiety and Mental Health 07:13 Conference Experiences and AI 19:10 Financial Talk and 401k Loans 27:06 ExpressVPN Sponsorship 31:32 Reviewing Sonos Ace Headphones 38:29 New iPhone 15 and Switching Carriers 40:34 Exploring iPhone Camera Features 41:32 The Evolution of iPhones 43:31 Bluetooth and Headphone Technology 45:42 Bone Conductor Headphones 53:53 A Memorable Trip to Minneapolis 01:00:09 The Future of iThoughts 01:10:26 Grapptitude: iTerm2 and Home Assistant Show Links 401K loans Sonos Ace headphones iPhone 15 Genital Shame iThoughts iTerm 3.5.x Warp AI Brett and Christina on the iTerm thanks screen Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Politics, Money, and Tacos [00:00:00] Introduction and Jeff’s Absence [00:00:00] [00:00:03] Brett: Welcome back to Overtired, couple weeks off, uh, it’s gonna be a little sporadic through the summer, but, uh, I’m Bret Terpstra, I am here with Christina Warren, Jeff is out this week, right before we recorded, he tweaked his back and now he is laying down and does not want to podcast laying down, uh, I guess, I get that. [00:00:26] Brett: Um, Christina, how are you? [00:00:29] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. I’m, I’m very, I, I feel for Jeff. Cause like, I know like back pain is like one of the worst things ever. So, um, and, and you know that, um, very well too. So, um, I, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m fine, but I’m, I am, uh, worried about our comrade. [00:00:46] Discussing Back Pain and Sciatica [00:00:46] Brett: Have you ever had sciatica? [00:00:49] Christina: yes, I have, but usually what I get, um, cause I have, I have scoliosis, so my back pain is usually different, but I have had sciatica before. Not often though. [00:00:58] Brett: Yeah, I have [00:01:00] minor scoliosis. I always hated those checks in gym class. But, um, yes, sciatica wrecked me for like two weeks the first time I had it. Um, and I thought it was just lower back pain, but it’s actually in my, in your like upper thigh. Um, and the solution was massage. I went to like a sports therapist who massaged And it took 15 minutes and she basically fixed my sciatica with like a deep tissue massage. [00:01:33] Brett: But that’s, that’s, that’s irrelevant because that’s probably not what Jeff did in his paddle boat, uh, over the weekend. Um, happy 4th of July. I guess, happy treason day. [00:01:47] Christina: God, I don’t even know, man. Like I, I’m so, okay. [00:01:52] Political Anxiety and Mental Health [00:01:52] Christina: So we’re not even getting into the mental health corner yet, and this isn’t even really a mental health corner thing, but it’s kind of a, [00:02:00] except it kind of is. So I feel kind of like an asshole for saying this, but at the same time, this is genuinely like a protective thing that I need to do, like for my mental health and for other things. [00:02:12] Christina: But I, I can’t be bothered to be upset or care or get too like mad about this election that Biden is absolutely going to lose. Like, I’m, I’m so, I’m, I’m, I’m so upset by the prospect of another four years of Trump, don’t get me wrong, but like, I just don’t have the energy to either, to, to be engaged, outraged, or like, even like, I don’t even want to think about it. [00:02:40] Christina: You know what I mean? Right. [00:02:41] Brett: Yeah, I do. I know exactly what you mean. Um, like I have already lost hope and project 2025 is scary as shit. Um, and I can’t spend all day thinking about it. Um, what I have done is focus more [00:03:00] on local, um, politics and grassroots efforts, um, that really have nothing to do with. The presidential election, because like you said, it’s almost a lock. [00:03:12] Brett: Um, I, I, I will not go so far as to make a prediction, but in my, in my opinion, it is, it’s a lock for Trump and, and we are fucked and the Supreme Court is just, you know, Decision after decision that are, it’s the most activist court in history and I just can’t spend all day thinking about this. I limit myself to like 20 minutes of like news slash outrage a day and then I just move on. [00:03:43] Brett: Focus on things I can actually control and change and not lose hope. Because there’s no hope out there right now. It’s fucking, it’s fucked up. [00:03:55] Christina: No, that, that, that’s totally, I’m, I’m, I’m in a very similar thing because, [00:04:00] yeah, it’s, it’s so upsetting to think about, um, on so many levels. And it’s not that I’m wanting to be like, head in the sand, I don’t care. It’s, it’s almost kind of the inverse. It’s like, no, I care so much, but I know there’s nothing that I can do. [00:04:12] Christina: And, That’s exactly what it is. That’s exactly what it is. And, and honestly, it’s one of those things where I, you know, um, it, I don’t know if this is, if this is how people become apathetic, maybe it is. I, it feels different. It feels like usually people don’t go through the sorts of trauma that we as a society collectively have gone through since 2016, right? [00:04:32] Christina: With, you know, first Trump thing and then pandemic and everything else. But, um, because we were just so polarized because things are so bad because it’s just. Thing on top of thing on top of thing, the Supreme Court. You know, you think about like, when you think about like the ultimate like bad decisions, I mean, obviously, you know, people can be understandably upset about Ruth Bader Ginsburg and saying she should have left before she did, which maybe is true. [00:04:57] Christina: But at the same time, even if she had like [00:05:00] left with plenty of time, I, I don’t, I’m not convinced that, that Obama ever would have been able to get. The, um, you know, confirmation at the time, right? Like, I think that we were just kind of fucked because they weren’t playing hardball enough. Like, everybody just assumed, okay, well, 2016’s a lock, so we don’t have to push and, and have these Supreme Court appointments when they needed to really have them, you know, in, in 2016 when there was plenty of time, right? [00:05:24] Christina: When you would still potentially have a fucked court, but it wouldn’t be to the level that it is now. And it’s just like, that more than. Even like the election and other things are the things that are going to have these, you know, like carry on ramifications that are so upsetting. Exactly. Right. Because that’s the real thing. [00:05:41] Christina: Like, like the, the, the Supreme court stuff that, you know, like the, you know, the stuff that they, you know, keep rolling back. Um, and not even just on women’s rights, but on, on so many other levels, like it’s so disturbing and it’s so upsetting on so many, you know, issues that it’s like, that’s the thing that, you know, Yeah, we’ll have 30 plus [00:06:00] that, that we can’t unravel, right? [00:06:01] Christina: That even if we had a good candidate to run right now, which we don’t, um, like what’s going to happen, right? Because the, the, unfortunately the age of the justices that you need to get out, um, are, it doesn’t align, right? [00:06:16] Brett: I mean, there’s the option to expand the Supreme Court, [00:06:20] Christina: yeah, but not [00:06:21] Brett: its own lasting repercussions, [00:06:23] Christina: totally, but, but, but that’s not going to happen when we, when there’s, unless you have a super majority. in both houses. You won’t ever get that pass. And even then, that’s not even a guarantee, because there’s, that’s a risk, right? Like, so, okay, we, we, we expand the court for three more seats. [00:06:38] Christina: Great. Um, what does that mean, like, when powers shift again? Like, there’s, there’s very valid reasons why, why that sort of thing has not happened before. And it’s, I don’t know. Yeah. Um, yeah, but yeah, [00:06:55] Brett: absolutely a mental health corner. We have begun the mental health [00:06:59] Christina: We’ve begun the mental [00:07:00] health corner. Yeah. So that’s, I’ll just kind of start and kind of finish. [00:07:02] Christina: Like I I’m, I’m doing okay. Um, I had some stressful stuff, um, uh, last week, um, uh, work related, um, that I was able to get through, but it was, it was, it was a lot. [00:07:13] Conference Experiences and AI [00:07:13] Christina: I went to a conference in San Francisco. It was a really good event, but the lead up to the event, there was just a lot of stuff that was involved with it that came in, um, pretty hot, even hotter than usual. [00:07:22] Christina: And as, as. Um, much as like, ADHD is a superpower for, um, like tight deadlines, um, there are some things that, like, there just aren’t enough man, man hours for, and that, you know, can just be too much, but, but things, things went well, but, um, I was, uh, it was like the, the event ended on, um, Thursday, like the day of the debate, and I was, I was in a bar, I was in the hotel bar, like, all day. [00:07:49] Christina: While the debate was happening and like they, they had it on one of the TVs, but not even all of them and just watching, just even silence, like with, you know, without even any captions or [00:08:00] anything on, I was just like, filled with dread and I was like, okay, you know what? Executive decision. I’m not fucking with this. [00:08:06] Christina: I’m not opening Twitter. I’m not engaging. I caught up the next day and it was exactly as bad as I, I anticipated it would be. But I’m very glad I didn’t watch it in real time. Go on. [00:08:16] Brett: I’m just going to interject this. Um, in a poll, only 65 percent of respondents thought that Trump won the debate. I don’t understand how anyone doesn’t think Trump won the debate. [00:08:30] Christina: No, this is a Nixon Kennedy situation, right? [00:08:34] Brett: fact checking aside, but [00:08:36] Christina: Right, but, but who cared? Well, that was, that was the interesting thing from the polls, right? Was that I think anybody with eyes knew that, that, uh, you know, or, or any, so any level of cognition, um, greater than Joe Biden’s, which would, you know, I’m sorry that’s, but I had to, it’s right there. [00:08:53] Christina: But like anybody with like, uh, you know, just like a monochrome of any sort of cognition or, or any ability, I think knew he [00:09:00] won, but. Like the, the big thing is like that it didn’t, at least from what the initial polls I saw was, it was like, it didn’t change anybody’s opinions. Right. Like undecideds were still undecided. [00:09:11] Christina: And, and it’s so partisan at this point. Right. But, but the problem is, is that it’s, you know, and this is why there’s so many calls from inside the house being like, we got to replace them. And it’s like, it’s too late guys. Like that, that, that ship sailed. And a lot of people were trying to call for that months ago when they were, you know, pilloried and, and, and really attacked, um, by the establishment, by the way. [00:09:32] Christina: Some of the same people who are now like, man, we got to fix this. It’s like, yeah, kind of fucked. Um, but like, the, the, the worry is, is that people just aren’t going to show up to vote because, [00:09:44] Brett: because who gives a fuck anymore? [00:09:46] Christina: right. And also, what is it like? [00:09:50] Brett: That said, that said, I will absolutely show up to vote, and I will vote blue all the way down the ticket. Um, like, that’s [00:10:00] just, I think, I honestly think a majority in Congress would be More effective than like it, like they could stop Trump from causing some damage, although project 2025, basically. Gives all power to the executive branch and Congress can’t really stop basically populating all of government with, um, sycophants. [00:10:31] Brett: Yeah. It’s going to be a mess. Sorry. I didn’t mean to derail your, [00:10:35] Christina: No, it’s okay. [00:10:36] Brett: conferences have you been to this year? [00:10:38] Christina: A bunch, but this was just this, yeah, but this was just like a, a last minute kind of ask. And, um, but it was good. It was, it was, it was an AI conference. Um, the AI Engineer World’s Fair, it was kind of a crappy name, but actually a really good event. And, um, uh, I think it was a good mix of people, um, who, you know, varying levels of, of how much [00:11:00] they have awareness about, you know, what’s happening with generative AI and, and, you know, All those things. [00:11:04] Christina: Um, you know, some people are really actively involved. Some people, you know, are more, you know, peripheral. Some people kind of in between. Um, I, despite not having any sort of like CS, you know, like a traditional CS background and certainly not in, into the level of stuff that, you know, like the really good AI people are, are there for, like, I can’t do the low level shit, but I’ve been getting more and more into, you know, various APIs and, and playing with various models and stuff over the last, you know, couple of years. [00:11:33] Christina: And, [00:11:33] Brett: Has there been any good, has there been any good hackathon around, Generative AI. I haven’t seen news about one. [00:11:44] Christina: That I don’t know. Um, but that’s a good question. I bet there probably have been some, but I don’t know. But yeah, cause that would be a [00:11:50] Brett: could be pretty cool to see. Um, we at Oracle are, my team is doing a huge push on this AI hub [00:12:00] where we’re interfacing with all of the other teams at Oracle that are working with AI and they’re Well, like Oracle has its own, like, kind of LLM and, and generative AI service that obviously is inferior because it’s Oracle. [00:12:16] Brett: Um, but the teams that are making use of it are doing some really cool shit. Like, um, there’s one that uses drones to examine, um, construction projects. And reports failures. Uh, um, what are they called? Uh, potential failures. Like it can analyze, like say a beam is rusting, like it can pick that up and it can process the data and give you a full report on like, how many years will this last? [00:12:52] Brett: What is the extent of the damage? And it all, it uses AI. To process all of the images from the drone and it’s [00:13:00] cool and there’s there’s yeah I’ve done I’ve done five or six myself now and every time I’m like man, this is actually a Reason I give people a lot of shit about generative AI for the average person Who’s sending me emails written by AI that drive me nuts. [00:13:23] Brett: Um, I don’t know, people, people don’t give the second prompt to like make this sound, make this sound less like AI. Um, but when it comes to like industry and practical uses, it, it blows my mind and I would love to see a hackathon around it. [00:13:45] Christina: Yeah. I think that like when I was doing some kind of cursory searches while you were saying that, I think like some individual companies have been kind of doing things, but I don’t know of any like big ones, like more broader, like kind of community things. But, [00:14:00] um, [00:14:01] Brett: I should push for an Oracle. Hackathon, that could be really good on my, my yearly review. [00:14:08] Christina: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s how you get a promotion or like a raise or whatever. That’s how you show value. Try to get that off the ground and then, you know, write that up in your, in your, [00:14:17] Brett: Oracle doesn’t give raises anymore. I’m, I’m convin I won’t know what compensation I get until September, but I guarantee you there will be no raise. Which means, basically, our Pay is decreasing because it’s not keeping up with costs of living and [00:14:37] Christina: Right. [00:14:38] Brett: so they’re basically paying us less every year by not giving us even, like, a 5 percent raise. [00:14:46] Brett: They give me, like, a bonus that amounts to, like, 1%. of my yearly salary and it, it means nothing. It literally means nothing. Um, no, what’s [00:15:00] going to save me is my first year at Oracle. My bonus was, uh, 100, 000 [00:15:10] Christina: RSUs. [00:15:10] Brett: RSUs. And they vest yearly. So this year I’ll get a quarter of that. And Oracle stock is great right now. Um, and you know, I’ll take it. [00:15:22] Christina: Mm hmm. [00:15:23] Brett: That’s a good bonus. That’s like a four year bonus they gave me. [00:15:27] Christina: No, I mean, that’s amazing. No, when I joined Microsoft, um, my sign on amount of stock was, was actually really insulting in retrospect, but I didn’t know that and I didn’t know what to ask for and, and all of that. But because when I joined the company, the stock was like 65 at the time or something. [00:15:45] Christina: By the time, like the initial, I think it was a four year period or whatever, by the time it all vested, like, because it was one of those things where like, you know, annually, That the stock at that point had like 4X’d, so it wound up being like the total value that [00:16:00] I got out of it, you know, wound up being still not enough, but, um, but, but, but a lot better, you know, and, and I had, [00:16:08] Brett: Not as insulting as it was initially. [00:16:10] Christina: Exactly. And I’ve had a couple of special stock awards, um, that, you know, things they try to give you for retention and, and stuff like that in, in addition to like whatever, you know, I get as part of like my yearly compensation. Um, and one year, um, when they issued it, the, the stock was like 256 or something like that. [00:16:29] Christina: Which at the time was kind of like a high. And so I was like, okay, well, I don’t know if this is going to be like a thing that pays off or not. And at some point, like there were certain best periods where like, I, I would like be underwater, you know, with, with that amount. [00:16:39] Christina: But now, because the stock is like 460 or something like that, like even that, like the, the hard thing is going to be, and this is why I think like a lot of people like calling like for like, they really like employees especially, but like, I think a lot of people like they want the stock to split because it’s like getting close. [00:16:55] Christina: Yeah. Like as we’re recording this, [00:16:56] Brett: 460 a share? [00:16:58] Christina: 468. [00:17:00] Yeah. 468. Yeah. And when I got in, [00:17:03] Brett: need a new job. [00:17:04] Christina: yeah, when I, well, I wish that we could split because if they split the stock, it would still [00:17:09] Brett: that mean? What does that mean? [00:17:11] Christina: okay, so a stock split basically means that they will, um, uh, divide the number of available shares, um, in, in half. And so if you owned, so basically, um, to, to have a bigger offering so that you could have bring more people into it. [00:17:26] Christina: But what it also essentially does is that if you bought in, so like, let’s say like you bought in at 65, um, And now it is 468. If the stocks split and, and it became 234 a share, um, your number of, of outstanding shares would be doubled, but your cost average, if you, if you bought in like at 65 or whatever, would still potentially have more room for a run up. [00:17:54] Christina: See what I’m saying? [00:17:55] Brett: I, I don’t because I’m really bad at this kind of thing. I’m gonna [00:18:00] take your word for it. [00:18:01] Christina: Okay, so the idea would just be your total number of shares would double, so your value would be the same. But at that point, you have [00:18:08] Brett: Gotcha. Okay. [00:18:09] Christina: another run up, right? So whereas, you know, so, so, okay, so usually what happens, like, like Nvidia split a few weeks ago and, um, and, and so Nvidia had been, uh, and they’re one of the most valuable companies in the world right now, but like their stock had gone super, super high and it split a few weeks ago. [00:18:26] Christina: So what that does is that A allows. people who would otherwise not be able to buy in because it was too high to get in. But B, it means that there’s another opportunity, like if there’s another run up, right? So if it’s 127 right now, but let’s say it has like another rally and it goes to like 175 by the end of the year, then that means that people who, you know, owned it earlier could potentially like double their, their returns or not double, but like have, have, have higher returns. [00:18:56] Christina: Because they’re, they’re, the number of shares would be higher. [00:18:59] Brett: That, [00:19:00] okay. You’re making sense to me. I get this. I get this. I get this one concept. Um, this is now a money corner. [00:19:10] Financial Talk and 401k Loans [00:19:10] Brett: Um, so I just this week, um, took out a loan against my 401k. And I did a bunch of research before I did this, but I was able to take out enough money to pay off all my outstanding loans. Um, and at, uh, about 10%, Uh, interest rate, but on a 401k loan, you pay the interest to yourself because it’s your money. [00:19:41] Brett: Um, and so that sounds great to me. You’re not earning interest on all of the money you’ve withdrawn. But when I did, when I did my own number crunching to see like what I was going to lose in interest versus what I was [00:20:00] going to. Gain in the, in the total based on the extra interest I was paying in. Um, it, it just, it made good sense to me. [00:20:10] Brett: So I paid off all my other loans and came out with enough money for home improvement projects. Um, and now, and now my only loan is paid back to myself. So do you know, what do you know about 401k loans? I’m just kind of putting it out there. [00:20:28] Christina: I don’t know a lot about them except that I know that there are sometimes like penalties that can be involved. Um, like, like you can take them off for certain purposes and you can get them back for certain things. Like, so I know that there are ways that you can do it that could be more beneficial. I think usually, because I think usually the problem is like, like, because the interest rate, like the 10 percent or whatever, like that’s not that much, like that’s better than a credit card. [00:20:51] Christina: That’s, that’s probably going to be about the same. [00:20:53] Brett: was better than, it was, it was, uh, point, point three better [00:21:00] than my, my lowest interest rate. So it is my lowest interest rate loan. And you’re right. If you wanted to take out I think it’s 50 percent of your, of the value of your 401k. Then there are penalties unless it meets certain criteria. Um, it has, it’s like, I think it’s called a hardship loan and you have to provide paperwork that there is like you lost your job, whatever. [00:21:26] Brett: Um, but for the amount I took out, there are no tax penalties. There are no. Additional deductions made. Uh, so I took out basically the smallest amount you can take out without penalties. Which honestly, like I didn’t start building a, I had, when I left AOL, I had like, I think 30k in my retirement fund and I rolled it over and then over the [00:22:00] course of seven years as an in, as an unsuccessful indie developer, um, I basically withdrew most of it with penalties and paid all the tax penalties on it and by the end I had like in it, which I rolled over into, um, Oracle. [00:22:20] Brett: And since then I have been putting in like 15 percent of my paycheck and 6 percent of that is matched and add in my RSU value. And I actually. It’s not a great retirement fund. Like, honestly, and I’ve said this before, but I could afford a pretty nice car to live in at this point. Um, except I think San Francisco outlawed living in cars. [00:22:49] Brett: Um, but where I live, you could still live in a car and that’s my retirement plan. Me, me and Al living in, I don’t know, like, uh, it would probably [00:23:00] be a Nissan, like a higher end Nissan, nothing fancy, nothing fancy. Anyway, anyway, [00:23:08] Christina: I mean, look, you at least have a house. Like that’s the, that’s the real thing. Like you have like, at least like, you [00:23:14] Brett: L has a [00:23:15] Christina: well, L has a house, but you know, but like one of you has a house, [00:23:18] Brett: right? Right. Yeah. Even though, even though I basically pay the mortgage on it, my name is not on it at this point. Maybe I should change that. Maybe I would be more comfortable. Like right now I invest all the money for home improvement projects comes from me. But, if we broke up, there’s no legal reason she would have to, [00:23:44] Christina: Right. I [00:23:45] Brett: like, we have, we have agreements, about, like, if, if worse comes to worse, uh, uh, upon the sale of this house, you will be compensated for the investments you made in it. [00:23:56] Brett: But it’s not illegally binding. [00:24:00] Like, I trust El. I love El to death. Um, but I have no, like, legally binding, um, stake in, in this property. [00:24:09] Christina: mean, maybe that, maybe that should change, right? And it’s not because, like you said, like you don’t, there’s lack of trust or lack of love with them or anything, right? But it might make you feel more comfortable about how you go about things and, and also feel like, you know, like makes the investment feel maybe even like more real. [00:24:27] Christina: You know what I mean? [00:24:28] Brett: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Like, I get a little queasy dropping ten grand on new windows. Um, Like watching my, like, I have, I have my own savings and I like to keep it at a certain point. Like I feel like it gives me a sense of like wellbeing and comfort to have at X number of dollars in my savings account. [00:24:51] Brett: And in this case, in my Apple savings account, because holy shit, that is the best return rate out there right now. Um, but, [00:25:00] uh, anytime that gets, uh, like you take 10 grand out of it, And feel less mentally okay. Okay. It’s a mental health corner again. Money is mental health. Like, this is all mental health. Um, uh, comfort and, uh, stability and all of these things are heavily related to money, which is heavily related to privilege, obviously. [00:25:27] Brett: But, um, yeah, money is mental health. [00:25:32] Christina: I, yes, [00:25:33] Brett: And, and I have been broke. I have been destitute. I’ve been homeless. Like, I understand the psychological ramifications of not knowing if you can afford groceries. Um, and that is a place I never want to be again. Um, I want to hedge my bets all the time. I want a job at GitHub, but, um, I, [00:26:00] I don’t trust that I, I don’t trust that my job at Oracle will last forever. [00:26:06] Brett: But anyway, yep, this is still mental health. I feel like, I feel like I’ve done my mental health corner. [00:26:12] Christina: this is a weird one, but I feel like we both were able to get like our mental health corner like out of the way. It was kind of like a good like joint one. Like that was, that was, that was kind of weird. Like we’ve been doing this podcast for so long that we were able to do. Kind of a, a back and forth, like kind of, kind of shared like mental health corner, all about like politics and money. [00:26:31] Christina: The, the two things that everybody wants to think about, but that genuinely are mental health, right? They genuinely are. These are things that, at least for me, those are definitely two things that [00:26:39] Brett: The highest, the highest source of conflict in couples, politics and money. [00:26:45] Christina: totally. Totally. [00:26:47] Brett: Um, are we a couple? We’re kind of a couple. We’re a podcast. We’re like podcast couple. [00:26:53] Christina: totally. You’re, you’re, you’re definitely like my, my, my pod spouse for sure. [00:26:56] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So do you want [00:27:00] to do a quick sponsor break and then move on? [00:27:03] Christina: Yeah. Let’s do that. All right. [00:27:06] ExpressVPN Sponsorship [00:27:06] Christina: This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. All right, going online without ExpressVPN is like leaving your laptop unattended at the coffee shop while you run to the bathroom. Most of the time, in fact, almost all the time, you’re probably going to be fine. But what if one day you come out of the bathroom and your laptop is gone? [00:27:24] Christina: Side note, this happened to me once, although not at a coffee shop. It was, I left my laptop. At my office and I came back in the next day and it was gone and it was a pretty terrible feeling. So even though 99 percent of the time you’re going to be fine, ExpressVPN is a great thing to add to your arsenal, uh, when you’re going online because everybody does need a VPN of some sort. [00:27:47] Christina: When I’m at a hotel, for instance, having a VPN is a really good thing to have in your arsenal, whether you’re using it because you want to protect yourself. Um, if you’re, on weird wifi networks, say you’re in an airport or you’re at a hotel, or maybe you’re on some sort [00:28:00] of like, you know, like conference wifi, that’s a little bit sketch and you’re like, Hey, um, I know that most of the websites that I visit are encrypted, and that’s great. [00:28:07] Christina: So I’m not really worried about sending my passwords across, you know, in plain text. But I don’t know if I really like the fact that somebody is going to be logging everything that I’m doing while I’m on this network. A VPN, especially if you’re using a service like ExpressVPN where they don’t log, is really good because You’re not going to, A, have your information sold by data brokers, but B, um, you don’t need to worry about kind of people spying on what sort of activities or what sort of traffic is taking place on your network, because they’re not able to see it. [00:28:37] Christina: So, I think that ExpressVPN is a great VPN. I’ve used it for a really long time. One, um, it is very secure, so it would take a A hacker with a supercomputer over a billion years to get past ExpressVPN’s encryption. So it is encrypted in addition to, various other, uh, provisions they have placed. [00:28:55] Christina: Um, the other thing is that it’s really, really easy to use. You can get it, [00:29:00] um, up and running with just a click of a button to get protected. But the thing that I really appreciate about it is that it works. on all sorts of devices. So phones, laptops, tablets, you can even get it running on like a fire TV sticks and things like that. [00:29:14] Christina: So this is one of those services where a lot of times, some VPN services work better than others on multiple types of devices. ExpressVPN works everywhere. Really big fan of that. Um, I actually was at a hotel a few weeks ago that was being weird. Um, about the fact that I was running a BitTorrent daemon in the background and it didn’t want me to connect on their network. [00:29:35] Christina: So basically I had to stop the daemon, connect to the network, connect to ExpressVPN, and then I was able to load, you know, my protocol again and the the hotel Wi Fi couldn’t tell me what to do with it. With my information because it couldn’t see it, which is pretty great. So big fan of using VPNs for lots of reasons, including getting around onerous hotel wifi restrictions. [00:29:58] Christina: Secure your online data [00:30:00] today by visiting expressvpn. com slash Overtired. That’s E X P R E S S VPN. com slash Overtired. And you can get an extra three months free. That is expressvpn. com slash Overtired. [00:30:16] A Little More About VPNs [00:30:16] Brett: Nice job, Christina. So, side note, like, they made this, the notes for the read were all about online security, which Like, as you cleverly worked into the read, is not the primary use of VPNs anymore. Like, so much of the web is encrypted [00:30:41] Christina: All of it is. [00:30:43] Brett: and VPN, if you’re worried about your passwords, don’t. Like, just, it’s, most, I think all browsers will warn you now before entering a password on a non SSL encrypted site.[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Brett: Like, every, every browser has something in place, whether it’s a little lock bar or an actual pop up that says, Hey, [00:31:07] Christina: Yeah. No. [00:31:07] Brett: want to think twice about this. [00:31:09] Christina: Exactly. They’re like, are you really, really sure? Are you positive? And people who, cause there’s still a contingent of people who are like, very much, I will never encrypt my, my website. And this is just a scam from the certificate authorities. And it’s like, no, there, there’s nothing wrong with SSL, but that isn’t the only reason why you use a VPN because [00:31:25] Brett: Right, exactly. Exactly. And, and I, I like what, I like where you took that read. I appreciate that. [00:31:32] Reviewing Sonos Ace Headphones [00:31:32] Brett: Let’s talk about the Sonos Ace headphones. [00:31:36] Christina: Yeah. Because we both got them. [00:31:38] Brett: Our, our friend of the show, Brian Guffey got us a great deal on, on some Sonos Ace headphones, and I jumped on it because I am always looking for comfortable over the ear headphones. My ear canals just do not work for. I have bought multiple [00:32:00] iterations of, uh, AirPods that sound okay, but don’t fit my ears. [00:32:07] Brett: Or like, the one in my right ear always falls out no matter what cup size I choose for it. Um, so over the years, like, the only way to go for me. And Like, these headphones we’re using for these Sonys we use for the podcast, they’re comfy. I can wear them for, uh, two hours about before my ears start hurting. [00:32:29] Brett: I wanted a really good pair for, uh, watching TV, watching movies, and music listening. And so I jumped on this deal, and honestly, at the price you and I paid, they are fantastic headphones. [00:32:45] Christina: there, there are no brainers. They’re, they’re fantastic. Where it gets hard is that the MSRP is 450, which granted, it, it’s not that difficult for people to, you know, find certain sales or get discount codes if you, a lot of corporations [00:33:00] even will have some sort of, you know, like, like Sonos, you know, discount, um, uh, like, like, I know that, that. [00:33:06] Christina: Microsoft sends it by extension, GitHub does. But 450 is a lot of money for a pair of headphones. Um, and so at that price point you’re going up against, uh, Bose, Sony, and Apple, uh, the the Apple, um, the AirPods Max are 550. Um, I, you know, I don’t recommend anybody buy those right now because, unless the, the sale is really good because the, um, the rumors are that a new version with, with the USB C will be coming out. [00:33:34] Christina: Apparently they’re not going to be making many other changes, but, but that will be coming out. But the thing is, is that if you already have AirPods Max, I don’t, even if you were very deeply embedded in the Sonos ecosystem, I don’t think that you need to buy these headphones. If you are somebody who is looking for a pair, like you, like, like you are Brett, of like good over ear, um, you know, noise canceling headphones. [00:33:58] Christina: They are very, very comfortable. [00:34:00] They [00:34:00] Brett: The noise canceling, the noise canceling is insanely good. [00:34:04] Christina: It’s very good. It’s very, very good. Um, I used them last week on a plane and so I was able to give them like a real test. Like I actually left my AirPods at home and I just took the Sonos with me, which I thought was like a really good travel test to kind of compare, like, okay, how do these compare against these things that I’ve, I’ve worn? [00:34:20] Christina: Um, and, um, and really, really well, like the, I would say that the noise canceling is, is right up there, um, against, you know, uh, you know, Sony and Bose, who are kind of like the leader in that and then the transparency mode, um, where you can kind of hear background things coming in to, it’s pretty good, it’s not as good as on the AirPods Max, but it’s, it’s, or, or even the AirPods Pro 2, but it’s really, really solid, um, but the big thing for me is like, I, I don’t know what your experience has been like. [00:34:51] Christina: Incredibly comfortable. Like [00:34:53] Brett: Incredibly comfortable. And the, like, I don’t, I don’t have like the Sony or the AirPods [00:35:00] max to compare to, but the audio quality is the best I have in, and I own eight pairs of over the ear headphones of in various price ranges. Um, and the Sonos Ace. Trumps them all. Uh, they, it, it’s a, it’s a really good pair of headphones. [00:35:24] Brett: Like you said, like it’s a competitive market and I’m sure it depends. Like, like I said at the beginning, at the price you and [00:35:34] Christina: at the price that we got them at, it’s, it’s a no brainer. It’s amazing. It’s, it’s harder at MSRP. And the only reason I say that is that I feel like if you already have things in the Sonos ecosystem, because right now how I think that a lot of people envisioned how these would work would be that you would be able to wirelessly tune into any of your, your Sonos. [00:35:56] Christina: Speaker zones that are happening throughout your house. And if [00:36:00] that were the case at this price point at 450, that would be, I think, for a lot of people, like a kind of a no brainer, right? Because like, okay, I could, I could tune into, you know, this room where this thing is happening, or maybe this room where I have my turntable connected or something else. [00:36:13] Christina: Um, but that’s not the case. How it works right now is that they only work with. The Sonos ARC soundbar, although it apparently is going to be coming to some of the less expensive soundbars later this year. Um, and so anything that’s connected to that soundbar, so anything that’s connected to your TV, your video game consoles, you know, if you have, if you had a turntable connected to that or whatever, like that would all work, um, over, over Bluetooth and not over wireless, but that’s the only one that has the, the audio switching feature with right now. [00:36:42] Christina: Um, and so for, for the Sonos aspect of it, like. It’s hard for me to kind of say it. I guess it depends on how deeply embedded into the ecosystem you are. But I think that the real thing is that it’s like, if you’re, if you’re in that market for like a premium pair of noise [00:37:00] canceling headphones for travel and you take the Sonos part out of it, I think they’re really good. [00:37:05] Christina: But as you said, it is a competitive space. Um, I, I think Apple, if you’re in the Apple ecosystem, there are some things about AirPods that are just. better just because of the things they do with the H1 chip. I don’t think that the headphones are better overall. In fact, I’m annoyed by many aspects of things with AirPods Max, but the things that it does really well, like, you know, seamlessly switching between devices and, and some of the, the other stuff. [00:37:29] Christina: is just, no one matches that. So if you have a lot of things in the Apple ecosystem, and you already have AirPods Max, I don’t think you need to look at these. But for most people who aren’t in that class, I definitely think they’re worth looking into, especially if you can get them on sale. But I will say the hard thing is the Sony’s, I haven’t used the Lea’s Bose, although they’re apparently incredible, but like the Sony’s XM5s are very frequently on sale. [00:37:53] Christina: And so it’s hard to Kind of pit the two against one another, just MSRP. [00:38:00] Having said that, yeah, I mean, for a first round of headphones, I think they’ve done a really, really good job. And certainly, if you can get like a good deal on them, they’re really, really good. [00:38:09] Brett: So I can tie this into a secondary topic, but it fascinates me that headphones are not. A quote unquote mature tech where, uh, where like new iterations are actually significantly better. [00:38:29] New iPhone 15 and Switching Carriers [00:38:29] Brett: Um, if you look at iPhones, like, okay, so I just yesterday, Got an iPhone 15 Max Pro, and that was an upgrade from the iPhone 12 that I used for years, and I just never saw a reason to upgrade. [00:38:49] Brett: Uh, the cameras got better over time, uh, some features got better over time, but not enough to be like, I’m gonna trash this iPhone 12 that I already [00:39:00] have paid off and it’s been a trusty companion. Um, finally. Uh, I don’t even, like the buttons got less responsive, uh, battery life wore down, uh, so I finally upgraded to an iPhone 15 and switched my cell service from Verizon to Visible and now I pay a total. [00:39:27] Brett: Of 250 a year for using Verizon Towers. And yeah, it’s insanely cheap. And, and I pay 40 a month as part of a loan for this new iPhone. But I was paying 120 a month to Verizon after paying off my phone. And like that, the cost differences. I, I’m getting a whole year for what I would pay Verizon in two months. [00:39:56] Brett: Um, so anyway, like, I hope [00:40:00] someday again, Mint will sponsor this show. Uh, but basically any of those little, I don’t know what they’re called, baby bells. Um, That, that use, you know, T Mobile or Verizon towers and give you the same coverage, uh, for a fraction of the price. But anyway, the point of this is the iPhone 15, uh, is impressive. [00:40:28] Brett: I love that I can shoot any photo and it takes depth information. [00:40:34] Exploring iPhone Camera Features [00:40:34] Brett: In every, I mean, you can turn this off, but in every photo and you can turn any regular photo into a portrait and like, and fuzz the background, uh, or change the focus of any portrait mode. Like that’s cool. That’s, that’s not worth a thousand dollars, but it’s cool. [00:40:58] Brett: I, I dig, I dig that. I [00:41:00] dig. There are a few. The camera is very cool. [00:41:04] Christina: Yeah. The camera’s really good. And, and the, the Apple, the Apple intelligence stuff, um, is [00:41:10] Brett: Oh, I haven’t used that at [00:41:11] Christina: well, they don’t, it’s not available for anybody yet, [00:41:13] Brett: Is it in the Oh, it’s not in the beta? [00:41:15] Christina: No. But when it does come out, they’ve said that like basically the lowest level of phones that will be able to support it will be like the 15 and, and uh, like the 15 pro. [00:41:26] Christina: So, um, so you’ll actually be able to, to use that stuff. [00:41:32] The Evolution of iPhones [00:41:32] Brett: People on Macedon were razzing me about not waiting for the announcement. Um, but honestly, like I am always two or three, even four years behind, like I used to always have to have the new phone. I would be at this store the day it came out and I always had to have the latest thing. And I got on like the Verizon edge plan. [00:41:56] Brett: So I could always trade in my phone at any time. [00:42:00] And I just. I don’t, I think iPhones became mature tech and [00:42:06] Christina: agree with that. [00:42:07] Brett: the benefits, the improvements were incremental enough. I mean, Apple, all companies right now in the mobile phone industry are struggling to give people a reason to discard their old phone. [00:42:24] Brett: They’re no longer as discardable as they used to be. Uh, we’ve hit like, uh, A point where an iPhone 12 is still good in 2024. It’s a great phone. [00:42:38] Christina: It is a great phone. I, I still have an iPhone 12 that I use, um, uh, sometimes as like a continuity camera thing, like that, that I, that I just use, you know, as, as a webcam instead of using something else. Um, and, and it’s great for that, but yeah, you’re right. Like we’ve kind of reached that point where like phones are for a lot of people, even enthusiasts good enough. [00:42:56] Christina: Like I still buy one every year. I think the only year I didn’t [00:43:00] get a new phone in. 15 years or so it was, was the iPhone, um, 13. And that was because it was going to take them a long time to get it to me in the color I wanted. And by the time that happened, I was like, I don’t actually want the phone because there aren’t any real changes and, and I, I don’t need it. [00:43:16] Christina: Um, uh, and, and honestly, I could probably wait longer than that with other things, but I’m part of like, like you, I was either part of like the Verizon, like, like edge upgrade program, or I do like the Apple, you know, early upgrade thing and whatnot, but yeah, you’re not wrong. It’s pretty mature tech. [00:43:31] Bluetooth and Headphone Technology [00:43:31] Christina: And the thing is, headphones, a lot of it is mature, but what’s gotten better, especially if you haven’t been in the game for a long time, is that the noise cancelling has significantly improved, even in the last five or six years. [00:43:44] Christina: Like, it’s really, really good now. Um, there are still, you know, issues around Bluetooth, but like, they’re, they’re still able to do things, you know, with [00:43:54] Brett: But is that, is that a Bluetooth problem or is it a headphone hardware problem? [00:44:00] Like [00:44:00] Christina: both, but, but it is a Bluetooth [00:44:01] Brett: just seems a little buggy. [00:44:03] Christina: Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, it’s both, right? Like it’s, it’s a Bluetooth problem insofar as, um, the, the Bluetooth standard remains buggy and a problem and, and, you know, an issue when you’re trying to do certain things. And so the solution is either to fortify the standard and make Bluetooth better for everybody, uh, which, you know, is complicated and takes a long time or to do things like what Apple did, which is basically just creating their own custom chips to offload some of the things that the Bluetooth, you know, can’t do. [00:44:32] Christina: Um, Or, you know, like, and I think Sonos, um, people were expecting them to use like, why just have like, like Wi Fi, like wireless headphones? Like why, why can’t I just connect them, you know, to my existing speaker sets? The issue with that is actually a power one. Um, the, the processor power, uh, Um, I think it was the CEO of Sonos, but I’m not sure it was. [00:44:54] Christina: Someone high up said to the Verge, you know the basically the, the power that, um, even [00:45:00] in the latest headphones that are put out, like the, you know, the chips that are in them are not as powerful as what they’ve got on their speakers. And, um, Not to mention, you know, the, the fact that you still have to struggle with, okay, well, like, how do we balance, you know, like good battery life and battery sizes with making sure that these things are going to be lightweight on your head and like, won’t, you know, be too heavy and, and make that whole part of it bad. [00:45:19] Christina: It’s like, there are a lot of things you have to balance. Um, but, um, And you, there, there are like ebbs and flows where there are some years where it’s like, yeah, there really haven’t been any, there have not been any improvements. And then you have eras where you’re like, Oh, actually things have improved a whole lot. [00:45:36] Christina: So, um, yeah, but I’m, but I’m, but, but I totally understand what you’re saying. Sorry, go on. [00:45:42] Bone Conductor Headphones [00:45:42] Brett: no, the other solution I have for, um, my ear canals not working for earbuds is bone conductor headphones. [00:45:50] Christina: Yeah. How, yeah. How do you like this? [00:45:51] Brett: Oh my God. They’re. Amazing. Like it doesn’t have the richness of sound that a good, like a high [00:46:00] quality over the ear headphone has, but for like watching TV, watching movies, um, so Elle, my big, like, even my 32 inch TV is overwhelming, um, for, uh, over stimulating for them. [00:46:18] Brett: And I generally, we watch, if we’re watching together, we watch on an iPad. Um, it’s a small enough screen that it doesn’t, of course, they’re usually knitting. Anyway, and they just look up when, when there’s no vocals, but there’s audio that clearly indicates something’s happening visually. That’s when they look up to keep track. [00:46:42] Brett: Um, it always impresses me how they can do both at once, but when, when I’m watching alone, I usually need to keep it quiet. Um, and so I have a pair of Bluetooth bone conductor headphones that connect to my TV [00:47:00] and. I can’t believe, like, I’ll ask Elle, can you hear what’s happening right now? Because they feel like they’re like open back headphones. [00:47:12] Brett: And it’s, it fascinates me that I can have volume up and Elle can’t hear a thing. Like, it’s just conducting through my jaw and sounding really good. Um, I take them on walks. I have them connected to multiple devices, but the reason I bring it up is because Interestingly, they connect to every device they’ve ever connected to. [00:47:35] Brett: When I turn them on, I hear connected, connected, connected, and like it’s connecting to all these devices and whatever device is playing, they switch to. Um, it gets, it’s buggy as hell, because I’ll be watching TV and it’ll say, Disconnected. But the TV, like the sound doesn’t stop, so it disconnected from some [00:48:00] other device, and it’s, it’s disconcerting, like it works, but honestly, Bluetooth is just weird to me. [00:48:09] Brett: Uh, it seems, it honestly seems like we could have, like we could do better. I [00:48:15] Christina: Yeah, we could, I think the problem is, is it’s like, how do you make a standard? Right. Cause that’s, cause the thing is like, Bluetooth sucks, but. At the same time, like, it’s backward compatible with a lot of things, like, even if things, like, you know, like, multipoint, you know, only work for certain versions and, like, they’ve got to support, you know, a whole range of, of devices, you know, from, like, you know, old video game consoles to cars that people own. [00:48:37] Christina: You know, we’ll not be able to in many cases ever update anything with Bluetooth in, you know, to, you know, older phones, to all kinds of other devices. Like it’s, it’s a hard thing to make a standard like Bluetooth, um, that’s been around for as many years as it has and improve it. Um, but I agree with you. [00:48:54] Christina: We could have something better. [00:48:55] Brett: mean, USB, USB finally is good. [00:49:00] Like, by, USB C is a great protocol. It’s a great physical adapter. [00:49:05] Christina: Yeah. But it’s also really confusing. It’s, it’s finally good, but it’s also like, what, what, what version of US, what USB C cable do you need? Right? Like there’s like, that’s still kind of a cluster. [00:49:16] Brett: Yeah. I, the iPhone 15 has a USB C charger, um, which means that all of my little charging stations around the house, which are all lightning, um, all, all USB A to lightning setups. Now I need, um, Either USB A to USB C cables, or I need to replace the hubs with USB C hubs. So that’s going to take a little getting used to, but honestly, I mean, it’s the same when we went from 32 pin connectors, like everyone complained cause they had to replace all their, all their, um, adapters and everything. [00:49:56] Christina: this is much easier because we already have a bunch of USB C things, right? Like, at this [00:50:00] point, like, I, I even, like, when I got my iPhone 15, um, Pro Max or whatever, um, in September, I also bought, even though I didn’t need them, because I literally just bought them. Bought a second pair because I lost one pair, um, left them in a hotel and they were taken, which fine, my bad on that. [00:50:18] Christina: But I’d lost a pair of Airpods, um, Pro 2s, which are really, really good. And I had to buy a replacement pair because I needed them. And I was like, I can’t go This long without them. I didn’t know that they were going to come out with the USB C version. Um, like a month and a half later. And so I was able to rationalize buying them for myself by, uh, giving them to, uh, my colleague and friend who I was on a trip with. [00:50:43] Christina: And I was like, Erin doesn’t have AirPods and she needs AirPods. And, and, and I also, they were like 50 off, um, uh, through Amazon. Um, like the first, Week that they were like out, but one of the [00:50:56] Brett: very generous of you. [00:50:57] Christina: yes, but my, my, my [00:51:00] real selfish aspect of that was a, I do genuinely like to just like gift people things, you know, and, and so giving Aaron the, the, um, AirPods was great, but the bigger thing I was like, this will make the transition that much easier for me because now the only lightning thing that I use with any regularity. [00:51:18] Christina: Other than my, you know, um, Apple mouse and, and uh, Magic, you know, keyboard and Magic trackpad, or whatever, which, you know, I, I, I don’t, um, travel with those, so that’s not a big deal, will be my AirPods Max. That will be the only lightning thing that I really have. Everything else will be USB C. So I was, you know, uh, You know, incrementally I’d already kind of upgraded and switched a lot of things over. [00:51:39] Christina: So you’ll probably find that too. Um, I know for my parents, my mom has the iPhone 15 Pro Max, but my dad has an iPhone 14 plus. And so they are split. And so each of their cars I have, you know, kind of set things up. A, I’ve tried to get them more into using wireless charging since they both can. And [00:52:00] B, so I bought a number of, uh, the Belkin MagSafe 2, Um, uh, uh, pads, because they’re cheaper than, um, the, um, uh, Apple ones, but they are the exact same. [00:52:11] Christina: They’re the same, you know, charging speed or whatever. Um, and then, um, making sure that each of their cars, like, has, like, a lightning and a USB C. But then, you know, I try to switch my mom over to kind of, like, teachers, like, okay, this is, you know, it’s going to be a little bit annoying, but Two of your, you know, two pairs of your AirPods use one, you know, way to charge. [00:52:30] Christina: One, one of them uses another, but it’s the same as your phone. It’s going to be a few years until everybody’s switched over, but it’ll be nice. Like in, in a couple of years, everything will switch over. [00:52:41] Brett: there are cables that have, they’re USB C cables, but attached to the end is a little dongle, you can slip over it to make it lightning. Um, which, so basically you have one cable that can do both, and that’s, cause L’s on an iPhone [00:53:00] 13, uh, which is still lightning. So yeah, we have this, I have this little, um, charging station that like, I snaked a cable under our couch and brought it out to this just little, um, hub so that we don’t have cables running across, across the floor and we can charge all our devices from the couch. [00:53:19] Brett: Um, and having, now we have to have both USB C and, Lightning cables in what is a very small hub. Uh, but it is doable, but I like this idea of a cable that one cable that can do both cause we rarely need to charge at the same time. Okay. So we’re at an hour approximately. How much do you have a, an extra 20 minutes? [00:53:45] Christina: I do. [00:53:46] Brett: Okay, because I have two more topics I want to hit before we get to Graptitude. [00:53:51] Christina: got it. [00:53:53] A Memorable Trip to Minneapolis [00:53:53] Brett: first of all, and I should have mentioned this earlier, I saw Jeff this last weekend and together we [00:54:00] went to Palmers, uh, in Minneapolis and saw Erin Dawson, friend of the show, previous guest, co worker of mine, we saw her Black Metal Band play and I I had heard some of her solo recordings before, and I had told her, this is good, it’s just, it’s not my, it’s not my thing. [00:54:23] Brett: But when I saw, her band is called Genital Shame, and when I saw them play, I was blown away. It was so good, and she is a Fucking goddess of like metal guitar and it was, I was ecstatic. I, I loved it so much. It was so good. Um, and I, I bought a t shirt. I have a genital shame, shame t shirt. I will be supporting and her, her, her band, cause she’s, she is genital shame and she plays with A backing band. [00:54:57] Brett: Um, and the backing band [00:55:00] is actually another band in their own right, I think in Milwaukee. Um, but I got to meet all of them and they were super cool, uh, the drummer especially was obviously ADHD as well. 90 percent of drummers seem to be. Um, and like we, we clicked and we had so much fun and it was such a great night. [00:55:24] Brett: It was such a great trip. And on that trip, I went to this place called Awamni. And if you’re in Minneapolis for any reason, get a reservation and go to Awamni. It’s not expensive. Um, it’s, uh, uh, it’s native. Uh, Cuisine. So, it’s run by Native peoples, like First Nation peoples, and, um, and they only serve, they only use ingredients that are native to the area. [00:55:55] Brett: So, there’s no beef, there’s no wheat. Uh, it’s basically a [00:56:00] gluten free menu. Um, the meat they serve is like bison and duck. Uh, and, uh, Elk maybe? Um, I don’t eat meat, so I just had a mushroom taco on a corn tortilla that blew my fucking mind. Like, I cr I was crying at the table. I had a corn, uh, taco, and a mushroom taco, and it, like I, and a, a stout beer, and I got out of there for like a total of 40, and I’m sitting at the table, I went by myself, I couldn’t find anyone to have dinner with, so I went by myself, I’m alone at a table, tearing up, because I am so blown away, it was so, like, I was thinking lately, um, about happiness, about am I happy, and I feel like everyone does this, but Pretty regularly, but I was like, when am I happiest? [00:56:59] Brett: And [00:57:00] it’s always around food. I think, I think I might be a foodie because like this, this meal was just pure joy for me. And I swear, I, I have no hesitation saying anyone living or visiting Minneapolis really needs to go to a Omni. It’s so good. [00:57:22] Christina: Okay. Well, I, I, I put that on the list if I ever, um, go to Minneapolis. Um, but that’s really, really great to know. And also, um, uh, I’m glad that you were able to see Erin’s band and, uh, or Erin, you know, and her backing band, um, and, and see her, her rock so hard. Um, I sent, Sent, we were talking about, about drums I sent you, um, in our group chat, um, uh, videos. [00:57:46] Christina: But I, I hope both you and Jeff could watch, so we can talk about them in future, uh, episodes. For whatever reason, the YouTube algorithm served me this thing, which was mega death, uh, drummer playing. Uh, I’ve never heard Mr. [00:58:00] Brightside playing that for the same time. And, and, um, and, and is this guy, Dirk? He’s, he’s young, right? [00:58:06] Christina: So he like, he’s like one of the, the current mega death drummers. He’s not like going way back and whatnot, but he’s very, very good. And he somehow never heard Mr. Brightside. I don’t know how, but never heard that. He [00:58:17] Brett: great song. Great [00:58:19] Christina: amazing song, right? And it’s weird because he’s like, he’s like, I think he might even be younger than me. [00:58:23] Christina: I don’t even know. So like, I don’t know how he missed Mr. Brightside. The song, but he did, he missed it. Um, he’d also never heard, um, um, uh, Paramore, um, uh, Misery Business. And, um, they did a follow up with, with, with him on that, but, uh, this, I guess this drum, you know, online service or whatever, like they have a really good YouTube channel and I don’t know anything about drumming and whatnot, but the, basically how, what they do is they, they play. [00:58:47] Christina: People like a song they’ve never heard for the first time, but the song, the version that he hears doesn’t have the drum parts in it. All of that has been silenced. So he has to come up on the spot, like, okay, how would I play the drums in this? So he’s writing out, as [00:59:00] he’s listening to the song, he’s writing out like the song structure. [00:59:02] Christina: And then he can take as much time as he wants. And he’s a pro. So he usually like a real pro, like he, you know, we’ll usually just like jump in like after he’s heard it once and like, you know, put in the drums as, as. He kind of wrote out and then we’ll listen to the final version and it was really, really interesting to see like what he did, um, on, on both of those songs. [00:59:23] Christina: Um, and, uh, like just as somebody who is not a musician in that way, um, has never played the drums and wouldn’t be able to do that, like, but just watching, like his whole process, freaking Awesome. Like, incredibly cool. Like, incredibly cool. Like, I have to give, like, this, this Dromeo company or whatever, like, kudos. [00:59:42] Christina: Like, they figured out a really good genres of content for people and they probably do a good job pushing people to using, you know, their, their services or whatever it is that they’re, you know, trying to, trying to, like, shill for. But, um, uh, really cool concept. So, um, I think, I think that you’ll, um, [01:00:00] You’ll like that. [01:00:01] Brett: I’m looking forward to that. Uh, what was, oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about was, so I’m giving a talk at Backstock. [01:00:09] The Future of iThoughts [01:00:09] Brett: Uh, sign up using code ttscoff if you haven’t gotten tickets yet. Um, I’m I wrote my, as I always do, I wrote my whole presentation in a mind map, um, which is just, it’s how I think, it’s how I organize, and I wrote it in iThoughts, which is now discontinued, and that’s very sad, but I think it’ll work for a few years. [01:00:33] Brett: One of the features it has is Presentation Mode, and you can select nodes, in the map and add a slide for that node. And you can like, you can create, um, basically, builds, like one step at a time, like selecting each node off of a parent and like creating a slide for it. And [01:01:00] then when you go into presentation mode, you go full screen, you dim all non focused. [01:01:06] Brett: Um, Nodes, and then it like pans around the map and like zooms in on whatever you saved as a slide. And, It is, it’s way cooler than what I would have built in like Keynote. Um, with the right, uh, style for your map, which I have heavily customized, it is just amazing presentation software. Um, if, if you think in mind maps and you just want to go straight from mind map to presentation, uh, I thought can export into, um, PowerPoint format. [01:01:45] Brett: But it, it kind of sucks at it, um, it doesn’t make anything beautiful or usable out of it. Um, but this presentation mode, uh, slides focusing on specific nodes, so good, [01:02:00] and no other MindMap software that I know of can do this. And I sent an email to Craig yesterday, um, asking if he had considered handing off the code base to anyone else. [01:02:19] Brett: And I volunteered. To, [01:02:22] Christina: take it [01:02:23] Brett: to keep, to take. Yeah. Um, uh, Luke from Hook, mark asked me if I wanted to take over, uh, hook, hook mark, um, as he wanted to retire, and I gave that a lot of thought and decided it wasn’t. Uh, it’s a great app and I use it all the time, but I didn’t want to be responsible for the customer support on something that most people find very confusing. [01:02:54] Brett: Um, so, so I, I kind of passed on that, but I [01:03:00] thoughts. Dude, if you, if I could be like, I’m Brett Terpstra, I develop Marked, Envy Ultra, and iThoughts. If that came, if all of those came to fruition, I would, I would, I would, I would be a developer to contend with. But anywho, that was, that was a long spiel about iThoughts. [01:03:20] Brett: I’m sorry. Um, [01:03:22] Christina: No, I think that’s great. And I mean, honestly, like, if there’s a way, like, I don’t know how much it would cost for you to like, take it on. Like, I don’t know what, you know, like both to, you know, take it onward and also like, what would the cost would be, you know, to, you know, maintain it and all that stuff. [01:03:38] Christina: But that, that, that could be really cool. [01:03:43] Brett: I don’t, I don’t know what his current income off it is. It’s probably not selling a lot direct, but like transferring it to a subscription model, you would lose customers. [01:03:58] Christina: But I mean, [01:03:59] Brett: would [01:04:00] also get recurring income. And I, I offered him like percentage of future income, uh, uh, versus like buying the code base off him. [01:04:11] Brett: Um, I don’t have the liquid cash to buy what I think it’s worth. Anyhow, we’ll see what he says. I have no idea. Um, it would be, it would be cool. It would be fun. Do you remember tags? The app? [01:04:24] Christina: I do remember tags. I loved tags, as I recall. [01:04:28] Brett: I did inherit that app. Uh, at the time it was right when, um, Apple basically, uh, Sherlocked Open Meta [01:04:39] Christina: Yeah. [01:04:40] Brett: and, and made Finder Tags a thing. [01:04:44] Brett: And the developers of Tags wanted Tags to work with, uh, Apple’s implementation of K, KM user tags, whatever, which was an easy fix. Like, [01:05:00] they gave me the codebase, like, for free, and, um, I was supposed to keep it alive, but at the same time there was an OS upgrade that broke all of the Quartz graphic, uh, uh, API that they were using. Not like rewriting it from, from using open meta tags to finder tags. That’s like a 15 minute job. No problem. Rewriting all of the GUI that, that got real sticky for me. And it kind of, the app died in my hands. Like I watched like a heart slowly beating to death in my hands and I felt pretty bad about that. [01:05:50] Brett: Um, yeah, back to mental health corner, back to things I feel guilty and sad about. [01:05:58] Christina: Well, I mean, you did your best. I mean, that’s the thing is, [01:06:00] is that it’s, you know, you, okay. One thing was an easy fix, right? Okay. To get it, get it compatible with this new tagging system that, you know, was, was also kind of obsoleting aspects of the app. But then the other thing is that if there’s this, you know, significant OS update, that’s going to require a bunch of other things going on. [01:06:17] Christina: And like, sometimes that’s That’s not what you signed up for, right? Like, you’re like, okay, I can inherit this and do this one thing and I can have the best intentions. But, you know, you didn’t sign up to do a full app rewrite and [01:06:30] Brett: didn’t. I really didn’t. Um, it would be cool to try to revive it, but I, I really just want to get Envy Ultra out the door, and I had a Zoom with Fletcher yesterday, and we actually, the thing that’s been holding us up has been, uh, some store kit issues. Um, there have been like, Minor bugs that we fixed in, well, Fletcher has fixed in the [01:07:00] app itself. [01:07:01] Brett: But the biggest thing was we just, we couldn’t get it to work, uh, with the subscription model on the app store. Uh, and we’re still on StorKit V1 because we want to be compatible back to pre OS 13. Operating systems. Um, that’s important to Fletcher, less important to me. Uh, but I mean, Fletcher runs old enough hardware that up until like last week when he finally got a new MacBook, like he, he couldn’t even test on the latest version of Xcode, um, cause his machines were so outdated. [01:07:38] Brett: So it’s important to him to support older operating systems because I think he projects. His unwillingness to upgrade his hardware onto the general Mac community. Whereas like I get the analytics and [01:07:53] Christina: you’re able to see X number of people are already [01:07:56] Brett: OS 12, OS 12 is 1%. [01:08:00] Of my user base for Mark. Like it just isn’t like, it’s not worth supporting. [01:08:05] Brett: Um, and, and so I don’t, I support two operating systems in the rear view mirror, um, and then anything before that, sorry, no longer compatible. I provide older versions for them, [01:08:18] Christina: No, totally. Which, which, which is great. And, but, but it, but it’s hard and it’s, it’s great to do that. Like when you have an existing product that says, Hey, I’ll, I’ll provide an older version, not gonna get buck ’cause it’s not gonna get the latest updates, but you can still use this version of Mark back to whatever. [01:08:32] Christina: It’s harder when, I guess when you have a net new thing coming out and you’re, you’re looking at, okay, well how far back do we wanna go versus, you know, what do we not wanna do? Like, I, I like, you know, um. A number of apps, I mean, not, not, not, not a ton of them have made this decision, but an increasing number of apps are even making the decision, like, we’re not going to compile for Intel, right? [01:08:54] Christina: Like, even if we’re not using anything that would Make the, even if there’s nothing [01:09:00] about this app that [01:09:01] Brett: that’s, that would be ARM specific. [01:09:03] Christina: right, right. We’re just not going to bother with it because the latest, you know, APIs and other things, it’s not worth it. And it’s just, you know, an additional maintenance challenge. Right. And so I could see like, if I were building like a brand new app today, um, depending on who my target audience was, I might just be like, fuck it. [01:09:20] Christina: I’m not bothering with Intel. Um, I think for an app like, um, Um, uh, you know, Envy Ultra, I don’t think that’s, uh, something you can do, right? Because a lot of, a lot of your core base are going to be people who are going to still have older machines. Um, but how far back you want to go also, you know, is, is, is an open question. [01:09:41] Brett: I mean, we, we started NB Ultra so many years ago that it’s still in Objective C. So trying to incorporate, uh, new Swift libraries into it takes, it takes some extra work. Um, it is, um, It, the code [01:10:00] base is already outdated is what I’m saying. Um, so we have, we have, we have plans for a rewrite for a V2, um, but we are selling on subscription, which means we don’t have to go through the whole rigmarole of releasing a new version and demanding upgrade pricing and everything. [01:10:18] Brett: Um, yeah, so anyhow, anyhow, anyhow. Okay. That was a fun, I am talking so much. [01:10:26] Grapptitude: iTerm2 and Home Assistant [01:10:26] Brett: Let’s do Graptitude and let, let’s you start. [01:10:29] Christina: Sure. Okay. So, my Graptitude this week is iTerm2, um, which is, uh, an app I’m sure we’ve mentioned on previous Graptitudes, but this is one that, despite the fact that this has been my, you know, uh, basically default, like, terminal emulator for, I don’t even know how long, right? Like, I, I don’t even know. I have it in my dock on all of my machines. [01:10:51] Christina: It is one of the very first things I install on any new Mac. There’s nothing wrong with Terminal. app at all, but like iTerm2 is just fucking better. [01:10:59] Brett: and [01:11:00] Warp. Warp is a good app, but it’s really just trying to keep up with iTerm. [01:11:06] Christina: Yeah. [01:11:07] Brett: And iTerm is free. [01:11:10] Christina: iTerm is free in every sense of the word, right? Like it’s actually, um, Like, completely open source, like, I think, like, uh, GPL, like, V3, I think, even, like, and it’s [01:11:21] Brett: vibrant, with a vibrant community around it. [01:11:25] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is actually kind of one of the reasons that I, that I wanted to, to, uh, bring it up. So, um, about a month ago, um, uh, I turned to introduce like a pretty big update, um, that had been in the works for, like, Some of the features have been in the works for years, but basically version 3. 5 came out and the one of the, I guess, kind of main, like, kind of like headline features was the fact that as an option, there was a new AI feature that was not enabled by default. [01:11:52] Christina: That if you wanted to go into your settings, you could add in, um, an open AI key, yeah, an open AI API key. And you could [01:12:00] basically, um, use, um, uh, Basically, like, kind of have kind of like a way to chat with your terminals. So, to bring in some features that are very similar, um, to some of the things that, um, you can do with, with Warp [01:12:12] Christina: so, so like there’s, there’s a fig which basically had like, you know, kind of like a, you know, generative AI kind of terminal, you know, Uh, you know, um, uh, command line thing. [01:12:21] Christina: There, there’s warp there. Like a lot of these tools that are adding these things in, um, so that, uh, the GitHub CLI, um, uh, has a, has a co pilot component. Um, it, it built into that now, um, that started out as a different extension. So you can basically use natural language in your terminal and, and get really good things back. [01:12:38] Christina: And this is a useful, uh, like case for, uh, for generative AI because like, Terminal man pages are really, really great with this. Like, like, I don’t have to think about like what, how, what’s the process of writing an FFmpeg script to do this or to do something else or use ImageMagick. Like, there are a lot of services that are really great just to be able to talk to your, um, [01:13:00] terminal about that. [01:13:00] Christina: And, um, so iTerm2 introduced this feature. I thought they did it in a pretty great way. It was certainly not installed by default and, and, you know, nothing was, was at risk. Um, Some very vocal members of the community, who I don’t even know how much these people actually used the application, to be honest, looking at some of the things, lost their shit. [01:13:22] Christina: Like, when, like, I, I, I get it. Maybe you don’t like AI stuff. Fine. That’s, that, that’s fine. Keep in mind, this is free software in every sense of the word. It is both open source and it is actually free as in gratis. That, you know, the, the, this guy who’s built this app that so many of us rely on, like. [01:13:36] Christina: Doesn’t, like, make direct money off of, um, you know, basically, you know, gets support contracts, or, you know, it’s from people like Brett and myself who are, uh, now donating, um, to, uh, to the cause. But people lost their fucking shit and were really gross and were saying, like, really negative things about the dev. [01:13:56] Christina: And, and it was ridiculous. And, and he was like, look, These [01:14:00] issues have been here, like I’ve been working on some of these features for like over two years, like this isn’t, wasn’t hidden from anybody, like You know, people were going to these ridiculous like links to the agreements. Oh, you’re in the inshittification of everything I’m like, you don’t even fucking know what the word means Like I get that everybody wants to say that everything’s been inshittified and I’m like, this is not an example of that, right? [01:14:19] Christina: Like Cory Dockrow would not agree with that. It’s really not. Um, [01:14:23] Brett: Or, or, uh, what’s his name with the Rot Economy? Uh, Edzeetron. Like, this does not apply. None of this applies. [01:14:30] Christina: not, not even remotely. Um, so what, what the developer did because of the backlash came forward and was like, fine, I’ll rip the feature out. I will release it as a separate plugin that you can install and enable. And once you have it installed and you put in your open AI, you know, API key, um, then you can, you know, put in kind of your prompt and, and you can, you know, choose your model and, and that’s fine. [01:14:53] Christina: Um, I actually think the feature is pretty cool. And it’s, it’s one of those things where you can write in natural language, but you can also kind [01:15:00] of have a preview of like what things would look like if you wanted your terminal to do it, um, you know, for you, which obviously most people aren’t going to trust, but it’s, you know, it’ll show you what needs to happen and, and you can talk in like natural language through a chat menu, like with, with your terminal, which I think is pretty fucking cool. [01:15:19] Christina: Um, but even, even without the AI stuff, um, I just, uh, what, what that whole drama kind of, um, highlighted for me, I was like, Oh, I get a tremendous amount of value from this app and I don’t pay for it. So I do now. I’m, I’m one of his GitHub sponsors. Um, and so I’m, I’m in the, the credits, um, of the app when you go to, you know, the about page. [01:15:45] Christina: Um, and, uh, [01:15:46] Brett: You can see both Christina and my name and a small screenshot of the, of the about page. I, I can’t believe there are only enough sponsors that can fit on an about[01:16:00] [01:16:00] Christina: I agree. [01:16:01] Brett: Like so many, so many more people. Yeah. So many more people should be paying for this. Um, have you seen what Warp did with AI? I’m going to drop a link. [01:16:11] Brett: Um, it like, It’s, it’s very similar, but it’s literally on the command line. It will recognize whether you’re typing a command or you’re typing in natural language. And you can just at the command line, ask it. You know, I want to see a Git log sorted in this way with these, um, these fields, and it will write the prompt for you, or yeah, it’ll write the command for you. [01:16:40] Brett: And it’s, I think it’s really well done, but I do appreciate, um, the kind of chat dialogue version that, that iTerm has, where you can kind of, and you can, if it gives you a command, like you said, you have the option to insert it directly into your terminal. Or you have the option to edit [01:17:00] it in place, and yeah. [01:17:02] Brett: Anyhow, good choice, good pick. [01:17:06] Christina: hmm It’s a great app and honestly like I’m giving a 10 a month like kind of recurring donation right now But and and I don’t know how long I’ll continue to do that But like I figure I do at least for a while because I’ve gotten tons of value of this app, you know for free over However long I’ve been using it [01:17:24] Brett: 10 bucks for about a year now. So I’ve, I’ve, I’ve donated over a hundred dollars to this term. I mean, it’s where I live. [01:17:34] Christina: Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say, I increasingly do, and like, this is, like, I know that there’s some terminal apps, like Alacrity is apparently like a little bit faster at certain things, and Kiting and other things, and like, that’s great, but like, iTerm2 is like a fucking great Mac app, and it is, like, I think like, is the gold standard that everybody else holds themselves to. [01:17:51] Brett: well, everyone, like I said, everyone’s just trying to catch up. It’s like I term the, every version that comes out [01:18:00] new features that everyone else is eventually going to try to copy. [01:18:04] Christina: Totally, totally. They have it first. And I mean, um, I will say, um, I feel like this is okay to share, um, because it’s been several years. Well, it’s been a number of years, probably five years now since this has been the case. But, you know, Windows Terminal, which is one of my favorite apps on Windows, um, for a lot of reasons. [01:18:22] Christina: I love the people who work on that and it’s open source and it’s one of my favorite projects from people at Microsoft. But I talked to that team when Windows Terminal launched and like they told me very clearly their kind of bellwether of like what they want to, you know, achieve was iTerm2. [01:18:37] Christina: And that to me, like that’s how, that’s why I knew I was like, okay, this is why this is like, these are cool ass people. And like, why this is a project to pay attention to, because if that’s what they’re looking at, you know, it’s going to get as inspiration. Like to me, that’s That’s the right way to do it, right? [01:18:53] Christina: Like, you know, like maybe have more, be like, okay, the people who are going to be building this thing are, are people who will [01:19:00] understand why, you know, a well designed terminal is important. So yeah. Um, [01:19:05] Brett: I’m sure you’ve noticed this. Have you seen that you can focus the output of any command just by clicking it with the mouse? [01:19:13] Christina: Yes. [01:19:14] Brett: Like it used to be, you could hit command, shift A and select the full output output of the last command. Now you can scroll through your unlimited history, click any output, and it will focus it and, and like dim everything else and you can copy and re and reproduce commands and edit previous commands. [01:19:35] Brett: It’s so good. Anyhow, yes, I term, I term two, which is on version 3. [01:19:41] Christina: Yes, exactly. [01:19:43] Brett: I term two 3. 5. Um, my pick is, and I’ve been a home assistant. Like I want to talk about home assistant. Um, I’ve been using Indigo for Years, a decade, um, to work with all of my [01:20:00] Insteon and ZigBee and Z Wave devices. Um, and, and I, I like Insta, uh, I like Indigo. [01:20:07] Brett: Um, the web interface and the Python interface are pretty fantastic, but. I wanted to integrate better with things like Hue, um, and, and all of the other more Apple focused devices I have around my house that Indigo can’t. Uh, like my Govee lighting, um, which is You know, you can use it with Alexa, but there’s no way you’re going to get it to work with the Home app. [01:20:37] Brett: Um, so I’ve been meaning to install Home Assistant. I, I was going to do it on Raspberry Pi that I still haven’t even unpacked. And then I noticed that there was a Synology package. For Home Assistant Core. And so I installed that and the setup was so good. Uh, it detected all of the devices on my [01:21:00] network and I could just click it. [01:21:02] Brett: Uh, added a few options for each kind of device, assign it to a room. It’s Apple TV setup was fantastic. And [01:21:10] Christina: Home Assistant’s [01:21:11] Brett: can control, control my Apple TV through home control. Um, I’m very impressed with it as a free project. Again, I feel like we’re on an open source kick today, but Home Assistant, I don’t know if it’s full OSS, uh, but it is, it is free and it’s, it’s pretty fucking good. [01:21:33] Christina: And they’ve got a really, really, really vibrant community. Um, they have like, almost 70, 000 stars on GitHub, and they’re very active, um, with a lot of, with lots of people. Um, uh, we, um, they’re, they’re part of our maintainer program, and they’ve been, you know, part of, um, some of the, you know, various events and things that we’ve had. [01:21:51] Christina: So I’ve been able to interact with some members of their core team over the years, and they’re really, really great. Like, I, I think that just what, what Home [01:22:00] Assistant is doing, you know, um, is fantastic because it’s making it easy for all of these different things to work together. Um, like, these standards that we claim, you know, that for the better, for more than a decade at this point, like we’ve been promised like, oh, this stuff will make sense. [01:22:16] Christina: And, and they’re now like matter has been supposed to be the savior, you know, for the last few years. But like the matter support is, is garbage and, and getting things to work across different things is kind of annoying. And like, yeah, there’ve been things like Homebridge and other stuff, which is, which is great. [01:22:32] Christina: But no, but like Home Assistant is [01:22:33] Brett: Great, great, but flaky [01:22:35] Christina: but very flaky, to be [01:22:37] Brett: And I had such high hopes for Matter, and they’re not panning out, and yeah. [01:22:42] Christina: Totally. Uh, but I don’t even fuck with it. Like for my limited, um, smart home stuff in it, I don’t have a ton of it, but the stuff that I do have, I’ve been using similar to you, like Home Assistant running on a Synology package. Um, but then also just knowing that like, you can like run them on basically any type of [01:23:00] device that’s out there. [01:23:01] Christina: Um, and, and the community is really, really good. [01:23:05] Brett: All right. That was a fun Graptitude. [01:23:08] Christina: it was. [01:23:09] Brett: I wonder what Jeff would have picked. Um, anyhow, we’re at, we’re at almost an hour thirty, minus edits. Um, Christina, it’s been a lot of fun. [01:23:22] Christina: It’s been a great time, Brett. Get some sleep. [01:23:24] Brett: Get some sleep.

Overtired Goes Overtime with Sports, PTSD, and Coffee Controversies In this episode of Overtired, Brett and Christina are joined by guest Jay Miller for an impromptu sports-centric discussion that spans the globe from baseball to European soccer. Along the way, they dive into the logistics of crazy travel schedules, the trials of corporate events, and the importance of happy birthday attention. They also discuss the latest in Mac tools, including Launch Control, Ecamm Live, and the rising star, Mise. All this while periodically engaging in sidebar rants about loud tech conferences and the struggles of navigating evolving relationships during Father's Day. Grab your AeroPress, sit back, and enjoy the tangents.

Geeky Giggles, Merch Madness, and Taco Tech Tips: The Overtired Trio Brace yourself for some uproarious fun as Brett Terpstra, Christina Warren, and Jeff Severins Gunsel hit a two-week reunion record! Dive into the madness with Brett unveiling the show’s new must-have merch—’Get Some Sleep’ totes and, wait for it, ‘Overtired’ thongs. The trio delves into a rollercoaster of mental health updates: Brett reminisces about manic creativity, Jeff raves about mid-day naps, and Christina juggles workshop anxiety with WWDC excitement. In the mix, Brett questions Christina on her bizarre hotel misadventures, and they hash out the chaos of project management, with throwbacks to ‘The Mythical Man Month,’ NVAlt, and nvUltra. Christina drops some tech love for Carbon Copy Cloner 7 and open-source stand-ins for Bartender, now cloaked in corporate mystery. Don’t miss their foodie detour into the hilarious Taco Fancy GitHub project and snag some savvy coding tips along the way. Your ultimate guide to tech, tacos, thongs, and more! Sponsor Incognito mode doesn’t stop your network provider from seeing where you visit, but ExpressVPN does. Visit expressvpn.com/overtired to get an extra 3 months free. Chapters 0:00 Bad At Being Good At Computers 00:03 Welcome and Introductions 00:25 Merchandise Announcement 02:55 Mental Health Corner 06:34 WWDC Plans and Reflections 09:10 Workshop Preparation Stress 12:40 ADHD and Deadline Management 21:31 PSA and Upcoming Events 23:42 Keyboard Talk 33:29 Sponsor: ExpressVPN 35:23 Hotel Woes and Travel Reflections 35:52 The Fascination with Hidden Information 36:36 A Rough Hotel Experience 39:05 The Mythical Man-Month Discussion 40:47 Software Development Challenges 45:58 The Second System Effect 47:30 Managing Software Projects 56:34 Gratitude Picks: Software Tools and Apps 01:11:52 Farewell and Final Thoughts Highlights https://overtiredpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Highlight-Reel-of-Bad-At-Being-Good-At-Computers.mp4 Show Links Overtired Merch! Get Some Sleep Jeff Tote Overtired Pillow The Mythical Man-Month The Innovator’s Dilemma The Archive TableFlip Erin’s show Mythical Man Month Second-System Effect Lily58 Via Project Tower](https://www.git-tower.com/mac) Carbon Copy Cloner 7 Ice (Bartender replacement) Taco Fancy Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Bad At Being Good At Computers [00:00:00] [00:00:03] Welcome and Introductions [00:00:03] Brett: Hey, it’s Overtired. You’re here. It’s like two weeks in a row for us. That’s, that’s a, that’s a record as of recently. I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severins Gunsel. Welcome to the show, guys. [00:00:19] Jeff: Thank you! It’s really great to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:00:22] Brett: Yeah, yeah, welcome. Welcome. [00:00:25] Merchandise Announcement [00:00:25] Brett: Um, so right off the bat, I want to mention because I’ve forgotten for the last two episodes that we now have merch. And Uh, it’s sel it’s sold through Sellfy and the easiest way to get there is to go to bit. ly slash ot merch. Um, that’s a special short URL I made just for you. [00:00:50] Brett: Uh, there will be a link in the show notes. Uh, you can get a A Get Some Sleep Jeff tote, you can get an overtired pillow, [00:01:00] you can buy all the t shirts, there’s a, there’s a university, an overtired university logo, um, it, it, take a look, it’s fun, it’s fun stuff, you can get any of the designs, which there are only a few right now, and I made them, uh, Kind of all on one day. [00:01:17] Brett: Uh, so I need to, I need to revisit, come up with some better designs, but like the straight up logo, [00:01:24] Jeff: It’s fun. [00:01:25] Brett: um, all of the, all of the, uh, weird, weird patterns I’ve made, you can get them on t shirts. Um, Baseball shirts, hoodies, tank tops, pillows, coffee mugs, uh, tote bags. [00:01:41] Jeff: There’s a thong, but the print is so small that you can’t quite read it, but [00:01:45] Brett: There’s a thong. I didn’t even realize there was a thong. I, I should probably remove that because none of our designs would fit on a thong. [00:01:52] Jeff: yeah, no, I thought the font was way [00:01:54] Brett: Also, I wouldn’t want to see that. [00:01:56] Christina: Yeah, I wouldn’t either, although [00:01:58] Jeff: would not get some [00:02:00] sleep. [00:02:00] Christina: so no, somebody did want to send me, I don’t remember what this was now, because it was gross. It was creepy. Somebody sent me something that was printed on a thong from one of these sites for, for some random thing. And so I, I received it in the mail and I was like, This is underwear I’m never gonna wear. [00:02:14] Christina: I, I, I know, like, I, I, I know the intention behind this or whatever it was. It was that you thought this was funny and you thought that, like, I’d be the type of person who would, like, not be offended by it. And I wasn’t offended by it, to be clear, but I was still, like, I’m still not putting this on my body. [00:02:29] Christina: I’m still not putting this, you know, up my ass. Like, this is not happening. [00:02:33] Brett: How many times have I said [00:02:35] Jeff: Yeah, [00:02:36] Christina: I mean, I was gonna [00:02:37] Jeff: how I judge all objects. [00:02:39] Christina: Right. [00:02:39] Brett: I put this up my [00:02:40] Jeff: put that up my ass. [00:02:43] Christina: This episode is sponsored today. Bye. [00:02:45] Brett: the Tesla truck. I would not put that up my ass. [00:02:48] Jeff: We both went for Tesla right away. How did we get so [00:02:50] Christina: That’s so funny. That’s hysterical. [00:02:54] Brett: Um. [00:02:55] Mental Health Corner [00:02:55] Brett: Yeah, so, uh, quick, uh, mental health check [00:03:00] in, um, I guess I always kick it off these days. Um, mine’s pretty short, I, I miss Manic Episodes, I have been stable for, Jesus, like a year now, and And I kind of missed the rush of like creativity and productivity I get with a manic episode. But that being said, I’ve created some stuff in the last year that is pretty, um, creative. [00:03:32] Brett: And I, I think I write better code when I’m stable and well, it’s weird because when I’m manic, I’ll like find a new design pattern for like, for, for code and I will be like, all right, I’m going to learn this new pattern by writing an entire app using it and, and I’ll just do it and like, I learned stuff really fast that way, but when I’m stable, I work with patterns I know well. [00:03:59] Brett: [00:04:00] And. And I write solid code that’s easily maintainable and, uh, probably better. I think I mostly miss the general, uh, feeling like I’m always on cocaine. Feeling that I get from a manic episode, but I consider changing my meds to like back to like Focalin, which always triggered manic episodes for me. Um, but I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t know how to explain that to my psychiatrist. [00:04:32] Brett: I would, I would like to be less stable, [00:04:34] Christina: Hi, I would like to be high, please. I would like, I would like, I would like to, I would like to trigger manic episode. I don’t think there’s a way you can, you can, like, stay, No, I, I don’t think there’s way you can be honest and say like, what you want there without him, like very understandably being like, absolutely not. [00:04:51] Christina: Um, yeah, [00:04:52] Brett: Yeah. I [00:04:53] Jeff: I mean, you could do the Sunday morning coming down version, where you also get the medications you need to shut it off, which don’t [00:05:00] exist. [00:05:00] Brett: Um, yeah. So anyway, that’s my mental health check in. Otherwise I’m good. [00:05:05] Jeff: Nice. Uh, I can go. I don’t, I also have, I’m not, yeah, I’m not even sure what, what. To say, I’ve actually, I’ve just been kind of, things have been moving so fast that I, when I stopped to think about what I’d say, I was like, I don’t even know. I’m doing fine making it, but it’s like a lot happening. So probably I’m lacking a little bit of spaciousness. [00:05:26] Jeff: Although I have to say, I have to say, I, I have, I have returned to something that I stopped for a long time, which is very short. Naps in the middle of the day. So just before recording, I’ve been working all morning and in meetings and stuff, and it was just like, Oh God. And so I went down with like 20 minutes left before we started recording. [00:05:45] Jeff: And for 15 minutes, I I’m capable of just like falling almost immediately into a sleep and like just getting the chemicals released and getting calm. And so if I do 15 or 20 minutes and I get up, it is. Such an improvement in my, [00:06:00] um, mental state. And so maybe that’s my check in is I did one of those before coming in here and I think I am a totally different presence because of it. [00:06:07] Brett: I slept, I slept 20 minutes. I got up five minutes before I logged into Riverside. I do that. I, I, I think I’ve always done that [00:06:16] Jeff: Yeah. I used to, I did it. [00:06:17] Brett: when I’m manic and I just can’t sleep. [00:06:19] Jeff: I it’s only in the last year that I stopped doing it. I’ve done it forever. Um, so it’s just nice to return to that and be like, Oh, I love that. Uh, so yeah, that’s me, I guess. [00:06:29] Brett: very refreshing. How you doing Christina? [00:06:34] WWDC Plans and Reflections [00:06:34] Christina: I’m doing good. Um, I’m gonna be going to ww DC next week. Um, well, okay. I’m not, like, apple did not give me a, a ticket. Um, they, they will not allow me. Um, I’m, yeah. At the spaceship. Um, I, uh, I guess I’m not, um, on their influencer list anymore. Uh, no. I, I, I wouldn’t expect to be. It’s fine. Um, but, um. A lot of other people are going to be in town, and so I’m going to be just uh, staying with them, a friend, [00:07:00] and then just kind of hanging out, um, and seeing people. [00:07:02] Christina: And so I’m really excited about that, because this is like one of the times of years where we get to see all of our people, whether you’re [00:07:08] Brett: that’s what we used to do it with 2L. We used to go and we, we didn’t have, we, we couldn’t get in. We, do you remember the keynote before they started way before, like the days of streaming and we would send. A bug, like inside and we would sit outside with a pair of headphones and like, and like live blog the keynote [00:07:32] Christina: Yep. [00:07:32] Brett: and it was, and the wifi was shit. [00:07:35] Brett: So [00:07:35] Christina: The Wi Fi was [00:07:36] Brett: dropping out. [00:07:37] Christina: God, I remember, I remember at one event that I was at one year, I think it was the iPhone 4 event. I don’t remember what it was, but I remember Steve Jobs screaming at everyone to turn off their Wi Fi because it was messing up with the demos. And I, I did not turn my Wi Fi [00:07:52] Jeff: We don’t work for you, motherfucker. [00:07:54] Christina: no, that’s how I was. [00:07:55] Christina: I was like, I was like, thank you for inviting me, Apple, and thanks for making this a [00:08:00] thing. I am absolutely not turning my Wi Fi off under no circumstances. I was like, I’m live blogging because that’s the only reason I’m able to be here, is because I think it was at Mashable at the time, but I’ll never forget that I’m like yelling at everybody to like turn their Wi Fi off, and I was like, yeah, I get it. [00:08:14] Christina: Um, No. [00:08:16] Jeff: Yeah. [00:08:17] Brett: Moscone just did not have the capacity for that, for an, for an event of that caliber, uh, with that many nerds, everyone with a laptop. Everyone, you know, trying to like manically blog about what was happening. [00:08:35] Christina: in fairness to Moscone, I mean, like, literally, Twitter didn’t have the capacity. Like, Twitter used to go down during WWDC things. Like, Twitter would go down, like, reliably. Um, to the point that, like, we would always have, like, a post prepared. And so, uh, it was one of those things where I was just like, I was like, yeah, no, I, I, I understand. [00:08:55] Christina: This is not going to be a thing that, uh, um, you [00:09:00] Anyway, um, memories. But yeah, so I’ll be at DubDub, which will be really fun. But, um, I won’t be at DubDub, but I’ll, but I’ll, but I’ll be in the area. So that’s, that’s kind of my, my heads up. [00:09:10] Workshop Preparation Stress [00:09:10] Christina: Um, I, I, with, I was informed, I will also, this is the only thing that’s a little annoying. [00:09:15] Christina: So I’ll be in San Jose for like a week and that’ll be great. And then I’ll be back home for like a week and then I have to go back to San Francisco for like a week. Um, because I thought, I thought, I thought that I was going for, well, it’s just. I thought I was going to be going in for like one or two days, um, for, for an event. [00:09:36] Christina: And then it turned out to be a much bigger thing. Um, the, the, the, the team that asked me, like it, it winds up being a much, much bigger thing than it was. And so I also have to come up with potentially three hours. I’m hoping that it’s only 90 minutes, but it’s potentially three hours of workshop content for something that’ll be happening in two and a half weeks. [00:09:57] Christina: So wish me luck on that. [00:09:59] Jeff: [00:10:00] Wow, yeah, good luck. [00:10:01] Brett: Oracle always asks me if I want to do workshops, but no, I. I have avoided it thus far. I bet you’re better at it than I am. [00:10:12] Christina: I’m not, I mean, I don’t, I don’t mind doing them. The thing here is I’m like, I don’t know if I have enough content. Like when they first told me, they’re like, Oh, well you can break it to power where you want. And I was like, yeah, I’m going to have to, cause I don’t have a three hour workshop in me. Like I’m not a teacher, you know what I mean? [00:10:24] Christina: Like, that’s, that’s a lot. And honestly, that’s, that’s a lot even for the audience, right? Like, I don’t know anybody who really wants to be in there for that long. Like. I certainly don’t. So I’m splitting this up with some, uh, with a guy and we have some other content, but no, but this has just been a thing where I’m like, I’m like, how much content do I have? [00:10:40] Christina: Right. And then you always have to think about like, okay, well how much is this is going to be like set up on the, you know, the getting started aspect and the troubleshooting and the other aspect, you know? So there’s. There’s stuff you have to build into that too. That’s always the hard thing about these events. [00:10:53] Christina: Like it’s one thing if you can kind of set the expectation that everybody is going to come and they’re going to have like a GitHub account that is not [00:11:00] brand new. When it is, that can cause problems. And then I have to escalate things and I can, but you know, that is an issue. And then, you know, having to get coupons for things to work and then just making sure like, okay, but then how much content do we really have? [00:11:12] Christina: And, and are the demos all going to work? And I don’t know, I’m stressing out about that a little bit, to be honest. So my mental health corner. I’m excited about, uh, seeing people next week and hanging out. And I’m also a little bit stressed about the thing that I have coming up on the 25th because, um, you know, it’s just, again, stuff that was sort of dropped in my, my lap and I’m like, I’m going to be able to be good and it’s going to be good and I’m happy to do it. [00:11:37] Christina: Um, it’s just, uh, it’s just more than, um, I was expecting and, and frankly, what I was like initially told, and that’s not my team’s fault at all. Like they’re amazing. This kind of caught everybody off guard. Um, but those are the things that happen sometimes and these are the only areas just to, I guess, take it back to Mental Health Corner for a little bit and kind of our show, like I, I think a lot about the fact that. [00:12:00] Okay, how do I frame this? I, I think I oftentimes think about my ADHD and my depression and like my other, you know, like, uh, uh, neurodivergent, uh, features. And, and I think about like the negative impact that it has had on my life. Uh, and, and there are definitely, Many, many negative aspects and I, and I wouldn’t, um, ever say like, Oh, it’s my secret weapon or this or that. [00:12:25] Christina: Cause like, fuck you. If I had the ability to just be completely normal, like have my brain work as it’s supposed to, I would take that in a second. Right. Maybe I wouldn’t be as creative. Maybe I would lose some other je stuff. Who’s to say, but I would absolutely prefer to not be ADHD. [00:12:40] ADHD and Deadline Management [00:12:40] Christina: Having said that, the only way that I think that I can cope with things like finding out that something that you thought was going to be a 15 minute talk and maybe some booth duties turning into something that might be three hours long about, you know, uh, topics that you have, how well versed I am in them, I’ll, I’ll be ready in, in two [00:13:00] weeks, but like, we’re not there yet is I think like, Being ADHD. [00:13:04] Christina: Like, I, I think that is definitely a, an area where I can 100 percent say that if I was somebody who did not have my brain, I’d be way more stressed about this. But this is kind of, if anything, like the time when like, to your point about manic episodes brought, like, I certainly, I’ve never had a manic episode and I don’t know what that would be like, but there is like a certain high that I can get when like, okay, it’s crunch time. [00:13:24] Christina: Like, I have like deadline, you know, high, you know what I mean? When you’re like, okay, we have to make this work. It’s everybody, everything’s coming together really hot and we got to [00:13:32] Brett: ADHD time to shine. [00:13:35] Christina: Totally, totally. And it is. And so that’s, that’s kind of a, it’s a good reminder in some cases. We’re like, yeah, this is a debilitating thing and it’s not great. [00:13:44] Christina: A lot of the times, um, Um, and we make it work and we have to make things work around ourselves and find ways to do things, but there are times, like you said, like the ADHD time to shine and, you know, deadlines were like that, you know, journalism in general was like that, but also things like finding out, [00:14:00] okay, you know, Can you just pull a three hour workshop out of your ass? Yes. Yes, I can. You know? [00:14:08] Brett: My, uh, my performance review is next week. And when I was going through the like goal system where you have to like input your goals and everything, um, I realized that all of my accomplishments for the last quarter were assignments that were given to me with like a two hour, They’re like, Hey, we need you to fix this. [00:14:31] Brett: Hey, here’s, uh, here’s 10 minutes of shitty video. Can you turn this into a polished two minute, uh, presentation, like with exciting video and, and that, yeah, that’s my time to shine. I’ve got two hours and I’ve got a bunch of just crap to work with and I have to make it. I had to make it pretty and make it fun and make it exciting. [00:14:53] Brett: And yeah, um, you give me a, I had to write a four part [00:15:00] series on the command line interface for OCI. And I worked on it for like two months because there was no deadline. They’re just like, we think this would be a cool article. And I just kept like, kind of plugging away at it. But if someone had been like, we need this tomorrow, shit, I’d have been done. [00:15:18] Brett: Yeah. [00:15:18] Christina: Well, no, it’s funny. I have to tell people that all the time. And like, and in terms of like, how to work with me. And in some cases I feel bad because You know, um, I, I can’t be more responsible and adult and, and have better time management and whatnot. But I, I am always pretty strict with people. [00:15:35] Christina: I’m like, no, you need to give me a hard deadline. Like we need to, or we need to schedule time to do stuff. And it can’t be soft because if it’s soft, I will push. I know I can, and I will. I will never have anything done two weeks in advance ever. That’s just not, um, how, uh, my, my brain works, at least not, not at this stage of my life. [00:15:51] Christina: Before, like before I became ADHD, and I’ve talked about this before, I really do feel like there was like a. Genuine, something happened where my brain [00:16:00] swaps. I was actually usually fairly proactive, but even then I wasn’t one of those things where I was like done way in advance. But now like I’ve gotten pretty good to the point where it’s like, no, it’s going to be right up to the deadline. [00:16:11] Christina: So if you give me any opportunity to push, like if you make it open ended, it’s not going to get done is actually the real thing that’s going to happen. It’s not going to get done. So I have to be pretty direct with people for my own expectations and for theirs to be like, okay, even if we need to move it. [00:16:27] Christina: Pass this, like you have to give me an actual deadline, um, and it has to be like consequences. It can’t be one of those things like, oh, it’d be great if I had it on Thursday. Okay, well, then that could be Friday, right? Like that’s how I read that, right? When I say it would be really great if I could have this Thursday, I’m going, cool, so I can get this to you on Friday and it won’t be a problem. [00:16:45] Christina: But if you’re like, no, I need to have this Tuesday or else, okay, you’re, you’re going to get it probably a minute before the due date, but like, that’s when you’ll get it. [00:16:53] Brett: Yeah, I have always, I pre, up until this year, I have always said arbitrary deadlines. Like if [00:17:00] someone gives me a hard deadline and I know it’s bullshit, [00:17:02] Christina: Mm hmm, [00:17:03] Brett: I know that they’re like in the, like the whole startup mentality is all about, like, we need this in two weeks, but there’s no, there’s no damage to the company. [00:17:13] Brett: There’s no. They just made up a deadline to apply pressure and my brain rebels against that. But in the last year, I’ve gotten better about setting my own deadlines and adding a sense of urgency to it. And I usually set my personal deadline two days before whatever deadline I’m given. Um, and, and that never used to work for me. [00:17:38] Brett: That never used to work. I [00:17:40] Christina: was going to say, did you do anything different to change that? Cause I do struggle with that. Like I can set my own deadline too, but, but it’s much, it’s usually much more realistic. Like it’s, it’s almost never early. [00:17:50] Brett: I gamified it to some extent, like if I get this done two days early, I get to do X, you know, for the next two days. [00:18:00] Um, because, and I won’t turn the project in until it’s actually due. Um, and I’ll take that time to fuck off and do whatever I want. Um, so there’s kind of a reward, I gamify it, but other than that, no, I just suddenly [00:18:14] Christina: You [00:18:14] Brett: Was able to like, was able to like, accept my own arbitrary deadlines. [00:18:20] Christina: No, that’s good. Yeah. I, I usually, I wish I could, I wish I could set my own arbitrary deadlines like earlier than they need to be. Cause in what really happens is that like, although you know what I have, I think I’ve gotten better with that. Um, in terms of waking up for certain things, like I’ve gotten much better at least on, um, timelines. [00:18:36] Christina: Like I’m. I’m never, I’m rarely early. Um, and, and if I am early is usually, um, uh, because of, of luck. But I, I have gotten better about becoming more on time, at least for some things. And again, it’s one of those things, if I know I can be late to something, I will be. But if you tell me, and this is why I always tell people, I’m like, no, if you have a hard deadline on something, like you need to let me know, because if I’m just open to be like, Oh, we have this hour [00:19:00] long window, But I’m thinking like, it’s, you know, we can go 15 minutes afterwards if that’s, you know, what happens, then like, I’m going to come in kind of my normal time. [00:19:08] Christina: But if you’ve got other things going on, I know I should respect your time more, but I don’t, I wish that I did, but I don’t. So like, I need to like be told, but if I know like, okay. But I’ve gotten better, like uh, Microsoft Build stuff was actually a good experience because I was on, other than the first day for rehearsals where I was five or six minutes late and that was not even my fault, like all the other days I was there, if not exactly on time, like five minutes early and I was like, shit, like you actually left your house exactly when you needed to leave your house, uh, which almost never happens. [00:19:39] Christina: So I don’t know. [00:19:40] Brett: I am, I am like, it’s super important to me to be on time for things to the extent that for like the hour before I have to leave, all I think about is I have to leave by this time if I want to get there five minutes early and I am, I am crazy punctual for an [00:20:00] ADHD person. Um, like it’s just. I don’t know why it’s so important to me, but a chiropractor appointment, uh, uh, uh, coffee with a friend, like whatever it is, like I’m always five minutes early. [00:20:16] Brett: I get the table, you know, I check in, whatever. And I’m, I’m just my whole life. I’ve been bizarrely punctual. [00:20:24] Christina: That’s, that’s great. I, I’ve always been like, now my sister, we call it Kelly time and we know that she runs at a completely different time zone and like, and hers is probably a little bit ADHD, but mostly it’s narcissism. And, um, and so we, we know that like her thing is just like you, she will tell you a certain time and you need to expect about an hour and a half to two hours beyond that. [00:20:45] Christina: So you even have to give her a different time. Um, because she will, And, and I don’t know if she does the thing where, like, I don’t know if she, like, cogently knows, like, what the actual time is, and then gives herself that buffer, like, I don’t know if she, she reverse engineers it, or not. I, I [00:21:00] tend to think not, but like, we, we have learned, like, Especially if, like, if we’re meeting someplace at a restaurant, she’s usually okay, although not always. [00:21:09] Christina: Um, but, like, if she’s coming over to my parents house or something, like, we know we have to give, like, a different expectation of, of when timing is. Um, with me, I’m never that late because it, it will be, like, an hour and a half or two hours. Like, it’s, it’s not a, you know, five or, or a 15 minute thing, but I’m usually habitually about five minutes late, um, to things, you know? [00:21:28] Brett: Um, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. [00:21:31] PSA and Upcoming Events [00:21:31] Brett: So, um, I would like to make a PSA. Before we move on, um, [00:21:37] Jeff: Okay. [00:21:38] Brett: of the show, Aaron Dawson has, has a band called Genital Shame and, [00:21:45] Christina: great name. [00:21:46] Brett: and they will be playing at, um, it’s called A Queer Ritual, Palmers Pride Party 2024. It is Saturday, June 29th in Minneapolis. I don’t know if there are other [00:22:00] shows related to this, but in Minneapolis on June 29th at 4 p. [00:22:04] Brett: m. at Palmers. Bar patio if you’re in the area. Um, I will be at that show. Jeff might even be at that show. Um, and if not Jeff, then some metalhead friend I can find. This will be all experimental metal and industrial and they’re like eight bands on the ticket, um, including one called. Abscheid, that is a sub genre less metal ensemble that creates sounds to connect your head to your gut, which out of all of these descriptions is one of my favorites. [00:22:43] Brett: Genital Shame is also good. But, um, there’s one that’s a five piece extreme metal band. And I don’t, I assume that’s two guitars and a separate vocalist, but I have no idea what all the, what the five pieces are. That’s a [00:23:00] lot. That’s a lot of pieces for a metal band. [00:23:03] Christina: is, but I love this. And also like General Shame is such a great name. I wish that if I wasn’t in genuinely, I mean, that’s like, if I, if I’d known, like, if I wasn’t going to be like, uh, in San Francisco, literally right then, um, I, I would have loved to have like, come to Minneapolis for, for, and seen this, that would have been cool. [00:23:21] Brett: We would have welcomed you to Minneapolis some other time then. [00:23:24] Christina: Some other time. [00:23:27] Brett: And it will be an outdoor show for the most part, a little bit indoors, but yeah, I’m excited to go. I’m going to spend the night in Minneapolis, see how many people I can see in a 24 hour period. [00:23:41] Christina: I love it. I love it. [00:23:42] Keyboard Talk [00:23:42] Christina: Um, when you said you were going to do a PSA, I thought that you were going to talk to, uh, give us a PSA about like why, um, you shouldn’t buy 58 key keyboards. Um, Uh, which, [00:23:53] Brett: That could be our, that can be our next topic. [00:23:55] Christina: I was gonna say, maybe it should be, cause, cause, uh, cause we were talking a little bit about some of your, your, um, your [00:24:00] keyboard, um, uh, entrees, uh, last episode. [00:24:05] Brett: so I finished putting together a lily58 keyboard and as I put it together I realized things like the single quote and double quote key don’t fit on the main layout and so you have to create a layer with, you know, like a key to trigger the layer and then uh, You have to have a, you have to have shift assigned on that layer so you can get both single quote and double quote out of it, unless you want to assign those to separate keys, but then you have to learn the, you have to like learn the muscle memory for the separate keys. [00:24:42] Brett: And it is, I, the, the keyboard I’m using, the controllers I have use a variant of like QMK, uh, key, key mapping. And, uh, it’s, yeah, it’s through, uh, I’m using an app called [00:25:00] Vial, V I A L, [00:25:02] Christina: Yeah. So, so, so, uh, I know the girl who makes Via, which is what Vial is based on. [00:25:06] Brett: Yeah, that’s cool. It is very, it’s very complex compared to like the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard Agent which is much easier to configure and now has, you know, eight layers just like this does. We’re gonna see, I’m gonna see what I can do. They make, they make, um, Uh, what do you call it? Um, shit. They make keys, key switches and keycaps that give you a curve upwards. [00:25:42] Brett: on the keyboard and there’s a word for this and I can’t remember but I’m considering because right now I just have a flat ortholinear layout and it would be cool if it was a little bit more ergonomic for my fingers. Um, I don’t know if [00:26:00] this is going to become my new keyboard. Using it makes me Always wish I was using my ultimate hacking keyboard, uh, which now is almost complete with cool key caps, but, um, yeah. [00:26:14] Brett: So anyway, key mapping a 58 key keyboard is, is weird. [00:26:21] Jeff: How many keys are on a normal keyboard if you have a number pad? [00:26:26] Brett: A hundred and four, [00:26:29] Jeff: Jesus Christ. [00:26:30] Christina: Yeah. And then I usually use like a 75 key, uh, layout. Um, or a 65. And so the 75 key is, is like what the, the standard would be like on your, um, MacBook keyboard, or if you got like a, um, apple, um, normal, uh, wireless keyboard. It doesn’t have the NU Pad or the um. Uh, like the, um, Home and PageUp and PageDown keys. [00:26:53] Christina: Um, so like that’s, that’s a, that’s a pretty common layout. Uh, 58, and 60 is, is, and 65 [00:27:00] percent are, are common too. Those usually lack, lack the function row. Um, and you can, like, remap those. But 58, I’m looking at what this literally 58 is now. That’s a weird one, yeah. Cause even so, If you had 60, like you can do more there, although like 65 would be better, but like that’s just that those seven key differences, that is interesting how you then have to go into like a different layer philosophy and figure out like, okay, how’s my muscle memory going to work and how I [00:27:26] Brett: Yeah. Right. [00:27:27] Christina: like that, that, that [00:27:28] Brett: then you can have layers trigger other layers with key combinations. And it’s cool because you can make, like, you can build a hyper key. [00:27:38] Christina: Yes. [00:27:39] Brett: no additional software. You can say, if I tap this key, do this. If I hold this key and hit another key, do this. If I tap this key twice, then like permanently switch [00:27:50] Jeff: Wait, you can do that how? Just with this keyboard and its firmware? [00:27:53] Brett: Yeah, exactly. [00:27:56] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Which is really cool. Um, you should check out Viya, um, [00:28:00] uh, which is a web version, uh, that, that might have a better interface for you, Brett. Use Viya. app. Um, uh, we’ll do it that way. I also put the link in the, in the show notes. Um, but like, um, if, if you’re having, if you’re not liking some of the stuff with, with Viya, um, uh, check out Viya. [00:28:16] Christina: It might be better. Cause it’s all, all of these are just basically different front ends for QMK. Um, but, but, but, but I, I think that, um, um, Viya or Via, um, that, um, my friend, um, Olivia, uh, does [00:28:30] Brett: Cool. Yeah. I will check that [00:28:32] Jeff: You should, you know, I bet there’s a way to do this, maybe it would require scripting or more than this allows you to do, but where if you, um, just palm down on the whole right half of the keyboard so that, like, it’s just looking for enough of the keys to be hit That it’s actually a, you know, like a, uh, it performs an action or like, I was gonna say fisting, putting your fist down on it. [00:28:58] Jeff: That’d be fun. [00:29:00] You should try that. [00:29:01] Brett: I’m not sure how to, uh, from a technical perspective, I’m not sure how it would [00:29:05] Jeff: I already have it laid out in my brain, but I just don’t know if the software can catch up with my brain. You said I was bad at computers earlier. I want to revise that. I’m bad at computers for somebody who’s good at computers. [00:29:19] Brett: I didn’t mean it. I [00:29:20] Jeff: no, no, but I actually was thinking about that. And I’m like, no, I am like under pressure. [00:29:25] Jeff: I’m bad at computers where I’m just like, I have to do a thing. And I was like, and just in my own systems, like I have all of these pieces. I’m like good at computers, but I’m bad at being good at computers. That’s how I actually like this. I’m not, this isn’t defensive. I was like, no, you really helped me get somewhere. [00:29:42] Jeff: Uh, anyway. [00:29:44] Brett: I’m titling this show, Bad at Being Good at Computers. [00:29:49] Jeff: I like that. And so one of the reasons I’m always silent in these keyboard conversations is I feel fucking so left out because I can’t fucking type without looking at the keyboard. [00:30:00] And I don’t even, and even when I’m looking, obviously, that means I’m not using all my fingers. And I want that to [00:30:05] Brett: don’t want my keyboard [00:30:06] Jeff: I want that to be different. I want to know, I want to know a second language, which I don’t, I know a little bit, I know enough Arabic to not get beat up in a five minute span. Um, and, and I know what [00:30:17] Christina: That’s way more than me. [00:30:19] Jeff: Uh, but I am talking about limited and, and I love other languages and then I wish I could type. [00:30:25] Jeff: And if I could just change anything about myself, those are the [00:30:27] Brett: What, so there, there are [00:30:29] Jeff: Little shorter. [00:30:30] Brett: touch typing tutors. Why, why have [00:30:33] Jeff: know there are No, we go through this all the time because there’s a fucking million things to do in my life every day. And so I can stop and learn how to type, or I can do one of the million other things [00:30:44] Christina: Other things that you need to do. What was interesting to me, I, I kind of, so I took like a typing class when I was like in fifth grade or something. Um, and it was dumb. It was, it was a waste of time. Like my mom like paid money for me to go to like some community college thing and like take a typing [00:31:00] class because in her mind, like you still needed to like, that’s how you needed to learn to type. [00:31:04] Christina: And, and, um, you know, yeah, I learned the homeroom, homeroom and all that stuff, but frankly it was just Mavis Beacon, but with like an instructor, it was stupid. But, but like, How I really learned to touch type, frankly, was just, I don’t even know. Like, I, I think I’m, I’m surprised that you don’t touch type genuinely because of all the, uh, how, um, how well you write and how much you write. [00:31:24] Christina: Because for me, it was just like kind of an, I mean, like, and, and I don’t mean this like in, in, in a derogatory way [00:31:29] Jeff: No, no, I don’t take it that way. [00:31:31] Christina: cause there’s nothing to be embarrassed about. Like, I also wish I could learn other languages and you know, more Arabic and Japanese than I ever will. And I’m envious of that, but like, it’s weird. [00:31:39] Christina: Cause for whatever reason, like. I, I didn’t really pay attention that much in that, in that typing class when I was like in fourth or fifth grade, but I naturally just like figured out how to type correctly and to touch type, just because I guess I was just on the internet all the time. Um, I was just never not, um, you know, connected and I was just like, [00:32:00] okay, well, this is, you know. [00:32:01] Christina: How I, how it, how I do this now. Right. Like it got to the point where I was like, I, you know, you start out, you’re looking at it and then it just became, it wasn’t even like I tried, I don’t even think to, to not look down at it. That being said, I did try to switch to a different keyboard layout once. And that I, you know. [00:32:17] Christina: No, right? Like that, which is why I think like looking at that lovely 58 Brett, like that’s a really interesting looking keyboard, but there are enough like, um, things that are not there where I would be like, I w I would really have to, to your point, Jeff, like I would have to like switch. I would have to like take time out of my day and be like, okay, I need to practice on this and like put time into this. [00:32:39] Christina: I don’t think it’s something that I could just, you know, pick up overnight. Um, and there might be better things to do, but I am a little surprised that like you didn’t just through osmosis get. Touch [00:32:48] Jeff: Yeah. It’s weird because the one thing I discovered a few years ago is the thing I can do is if I am typing, and then I just look up and keep [00:33:00] typing, it’s like there’s a little bit of lag. It’s kind of like my wife killed a centipede this morning and not killed, she actually removed it, dropped it in the driveway, but the legs that were left were still moving. [00:33:11] Jeff: It’s like, so if I look up, it’s a little bit of that, like I can still, I’m hitting the right one. Keys for just a minute, and then it’s like, my brain just goes, Oh fuck, we’re not looking! And it’s over. It’s very strange. [00:33:23] Brett: It’s like training wheels. Like, [00:33:26] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:33:29] Sponsor: ExpressVPN [00:33:29] Brett: Um, can I tell you about ExpressVPN? [00:33:32] Christina: Please [00:33:32] Jeff: yeah, please do. [00:33:34] Brett: So I know that none of our listeners watch porn. Um, but just in case [00:33:40] Jeff: listen to it. [00:33:41] Brett: sure. [00:33:41] Christina: might. [00:33:42] Brett: But just in case you have any friends that do, help me pass along this important PSA. Incognito mode does not make you incognito. 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I use ExpressVPN when I travel because I don’t want hotel, airport, coffee house, Wi Fi admins to know where I’m visiting, even when it’s innocent. Uh, they don’t need that info. But especially when I’m alone in a [00:35:00] hotel room, if you know what I mean. [00:35:02] Brett: Protect your online privacy today by visiting expressvpn. com slash overtired. That’s E X P R E S S V P N. com slash overtired. And you can get an extra three months free by visiting expressvpn. com slash overtired. [00:35:23] Hotel Woes and Travel Reflections [00:35:23] Jeff: I was just in a hotel. I just traveled for work for the first time since before the pandemic. And, uh, we’ve traveled a lot since then, but not for work and not alone. And, um, hotels, I’m so over them when I’m alone. I find it all I can do is really feel a little lonely and fall asleep. Um, and maybe watch a movie with The Rock in it if it’s on, because that’s usually what’s on in the hotels. [00:35:46] Jeff: If that’s on, then I’ll watch the movie. Um, but, uh, just a free association. [00:35:52] The Fascination with Hidden Information [00:35:52] Jeff: I found that even being away from hotels that long, my ability to, one, fail the book until the last minute, and two, no matter how good [00:36:00] Perfectly decent, the place looks, to find a room that has bloodstains in it is really fucking remarkable and I even started with my family just for shits and giggles, I bring a little like UV light so we can look at the floor of the hotel, which like some, some of my family refuses, but my youngest is like, yeah, oh fuck, right? [00:36:18] Jeff: Like, uh, cause I love it. I love, I love invisible information. I just love the idea that there’s information around us all the time, like radio waves, like whatever. So I love to be able to reveal the stuff that’s not seen, right? Like, [00:36:32] Brett: that’s disturbing. [00:36:35] Jeff: but anyway, I, it was amazing. [00:36:36] A Rough Hotel Experience [00:36:36] Jeff: So this place, it’s basically, it was a halfway house. Like I, I, I walk in and there’s a dude. Coming out of the elevator with like a BMX and he’s like BMX bike is like neck tattoos the whole thing when I’m waiting for the for the guy at the counter there’s just like a this doesn’t sound like much but there’s just like a loose it was a loose cigarette on the floor at the counter I’m like you know what that’s nothing it’s nothing to see a cigarette but I can tell what [00:37:00] this place is now because there’s a cigarette on the floor because when do you ever see a whole cigarette on the floor anywhere anymore and And then I went down to like breakfast the next morning, literally every person in there was, I would say mid fifties, super like tattooed and weathered, right? [00:37:18] Jeff: Like I have spent a lot of time outside. I’ve been drunk, passed out in the sun a thousand times in my life. I’ve been through it. I literally was looking around and this is not meant pejoratively. I was like, this looks like a fucking halfway house. Like, how do I, and here’s the thing. I always end up by the freeway and I always end up in a situation where in order to walk to where I’m going, I have to walk under the freeway. [00:37:39] Jeff: And that’s its own thing. You just know, if you’re walking under a freeway, you’re in the wrong part. Like, and I used to love that. I used to be like, yeah, fuck it. You know, I was on tour. I lived in a van, whatever. I used to sort of like, not like exactly take pride, but just be like, yeah, this is the kind of place I go. [00:37:54] Jeff: I actually like being in nice hotels. I love it. I just can’t make it happen for myself. [00:37:59] Christina: [00:38:00] Right. I was gonna say our, I was gonna say our hotel experiences are so different. Um, but I’m not like, like at all, like I don’t have those experiences at all. But at the same time, I’m a little, I’m not envious because I, I’m going to be real. I prefer the nicer hotels, but there is some sort of like good people watching shit. [00:38:16] Christina: You know what I [00:38:17] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I do. I do appreciate that. And again, I don’t mind. I’ve been in some very nice hotel rooms. I am very comfortable in a nice hotel room in first class on a plane. We can get it with points. I am super comfortable. But for whatever reason, if I’m taking care of myself, it just it’s a little peek into what I would have been like without a wife. [00:38:35] Jeff: I think it’s just like, I told her the other day, I’m like, if you were to pass, Tomorrow. I think it’d be about six months before I had like a, um, the shell of a pontoon in the backyard. So I could just be making some kind of fucked up boat and a monkey. Like, I just feel like that’s, that’s like, I’m just, you know, I need, I need someone. [00:38:58] Jeff: Anyway, that was a major [00:39:00] diversion. Sorry. [00:39:02] Brett: So, did you want to talk about this mythical man month? [00:39:05] The Mythical Man-Month Discussion [00:39:05] Jeff: Well, yeah, I wanted to ask you, I wanted to bring something up by way of the book, the 1975 software engineering book of essays and, and, and essays about how to kind of manage and not manage, um, software development and other development projects by [00:39:22] Christina: It’s a great book. [00:39:23] Jeff: Frederick P. Brooks, Jr. Also known as Fred Brooks. Uh, I appreciate that he put that much as he goes by Fred Brooks, but man, on the book, it’s Frederick P. [00:39:32] Jeff: Brooks, Jr. Um, [00:39:34] Christina: this is peak wasp stuff, right? Like [00:39:36] Jeff: Yeah, [00:39:36] Christina: the, the waspiest of like wasp time. This is like the 70s. [00:39:40] Jeff: Yeah, it’s 1975 and like, there’s fucking, it’s like a prehistoric bears drawing on the car. Anyway, it’s called Mythical Man Month, let’s be honest. It probably used to be called Mythical White Man Month. Forget that, it’s just man, right? Like, there’s like a lot of things about this. [00:39:57] Jeff: I read it, I read it, [00:40:00] um, I think two months ago when I was on vacation, it’s like, it’s a fast read. Um, and I was partly interested in it because I had just done the closest thing to sort of, uh, it wasn’t software designed at all, but I had to do, you know, like a complex sort of, it involved a lot of coding and involved a lot of custom, you know, database creation and all of this stuff for a project. [00:40:22] Jeff: And I, and it was the kind of thing where it’s like, I roughly knew how I wanted to end, but I, I didn’t know how to get there. And so in other words, it was a creative act. It’s the kind of thing that people who code all the time go through. Right. And then the creative act, you can’t actually reliably set out the steps because you don’t know what they are. [00:40:39] Jeff: Right. Like, so I was planning to build a deck this summer. It’s not happening. And someone asked me like, you know how to build the deck? And I was like, I will when I’m done. [00:40:47] Software Development Challenges [00:40:47] Jeff: Um, and so anyway, um, it would, because kind of a project management hell on our team, because nobody on my team. knew how to do this stuff or knew what I was doing or had my skill set, even my [00:41:00] like edge skill set that I was, you know, able to utilize chat GPT to like really multiply. [00:41:06] Jeff: Right. Um, and so nobody knew how to think about what I was doing. I didn’t have a partner to talk with and say, this is what I’m doing. What the fuck am I doing wrong? Or like, how should we think about how to plan this? And I, and I kept thinking it was just causing a lot, it was taking longer than it should, whatever, but like the end product was really good. [00:41:23] Jeff: Like I, it’s the first time in a long time that I’ve had a big idea and then executed it in a actually very reasonable points. Like I landed it. Like I was, I don’t land planes. That’s like, I’m like fucking Al Qaeda. Like I don’t, I don’t land planes. Right. Like, um, and, and so this thing [00:41:40] Brett: Too soon. [00:41:41] Jeff: This thing worked so fucking well, and it just, it happened, but I was left with a terrible feeling, because I had just frustrated everybody on my team, and especially our project manager, who came from the corporate world and never dealt with software or anything, right? [00:41:58] Jeff: And it’s great, but like, just didn’t, you know, [00:42:00] didn’t have the frame for it. And I, and so when it was all done, it was like, I was really proud of it. Our client was like, we’ve never had anything like this, a big client. And they’re just like, nobody’s ever, they used to fucking hire Rand. And they’re like, nobody’s ever created something quite like this for us. [00:42:13] Jeff: Not that it was the quality of what a defense contractor would give them. But, um, so anyway, like, I was like, why do I just feel shitty? Why do I just feel bad now that it’s done? And it’s like, I’m pretty sure. And it was hard to say it at the time because people were just bummed out by how the process went. [00:42:28] Jeff: But I was like, I’m pretty sure that our framework was all wrong. And, and that, that is a huge piece of this problem. So reading this book was amazing. Cause it’s a lot about managing. I think there’s a quote in here. That’s like, um, how does a software project, uh, get to be one year late one day at a time? [00:42:46] Jeff: It’s like really great. But the reason I’m talking about all of this, have either of you like either read or had this book in your hands? [00:42:54] Christina: Yes, I have. I have it because I’m a huge fan of it actually. [00:42:57] Jeff: did you how did it come to you? [00:42:59] Christina: [00:43:00] I read something about it. Probably, I probably read somebody commenting on, um, it’s philosophy ones, probably, um, on, on a forum or a message board or something. And the idea immediately resonated with me. And this was before I even went into software development. [00:43:13] Christina: So this was like when I was a journalist and the idea was like really resonant with me. And I’d heard like that one and like the innovators dilemma, uh, by Clayton Christensen were often. Mentioned and are often mentioned as like important and kind of like seminal, like software books. And, uh, the Innovator’s Dilemma is great because, uh, it’s from a guy, he died a couple of years ago, but he, um, uh, wrote a bunch of papers, kind of like his, his, Principle, his theories on disruption, like not all of them have necessarily worked out exactly, but like he kind of came up with like the notion of for, you know, market leaders, if they want to, um, uh, prevent being disrupted, they have to disrupt themselves because of how a lot of times like bottom up disruption happens and whatnot. [00:43:55] Christina: It’s a really interesting book, but um, The Mythical Man was one of those [00:44:00] like kind of like Always on those lists of like important, you know, books to read about software development and other things. And, and it really made a lot of sense to me when I was covering software, um, uh, before even doing it at it, where it makes even more sense. [00:44:12] Christina: It was like a good understanding of how like projects can run off course. [00:44:19] Jeff: hmm. Mm [00:44:20] Christina: know, so like, you know, because, because like one of the, one of the challenges when you write about software, if you’re not a developer, is that you don’t know all the intricacies and the things that go into how a project is managed and how something is done. [00:44:32] Christina: And so what can seem like a small thing to you, like, well, how, how, how much of a problem could this be and whatnot, um, becomes, um, Um, and so when like, you know, you hear kind of the idea that it’s like hiring, you know, at a certain point, hiring more bodies doesn’t give you more productivity. And like, that’s been proven, like that instinctually makes sense. [00:44:51] Christina: And if you’ve worked on large teams, whether you’re making software or not, like, you know, that that’s how it works. Like there are some things where just throwing people at the problem can, um, you know, make [00:45:00] you know, speed things up. Construction is one of those areas, um, although even that has its, has its upper limits, right? [00:45:05] Christina: Like at a certain point, you know, just because you have a, you know, a, a, a million people working on a task doesn’t mean that it’s going to necessarily come together anymore. Um, but yeah, I, I came across the book, um, I, I probably just through, um, you know, hearing people talk about it. And then when I read it, I was like, Oh no, this, Is really smart and really changed kind of like how I both understood Like how people build things and also how things get off track and then also in some ways thinking about my own things like okay you know, you can understand the impetus for for feature creep and for a 2. [00:45:36] Christina: 0 version and you can see like, oh no, this is You know, this is why oftentimes those things go off the rails. Like somebody creates something that’s really perfect and it’s just, you know, Oh, well, the next version, I’m just going to do a small refactor. And I’m just going to add a couple more features. And then the next thing, you know, that becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. [00:45:54] Christina: And it’s, you know, takes six years for it to come out, you [00:45:58] The Second System Effect [00:45:58] Jeff: Which is, which [00:46:00] is a perfect segue, because like, the thing that I had in my mind coming in was this idea that, I think he names this in the book, I think it’s his bit, is the second system effect. And the way he puts it is he’s like, and I’m just gonna do, when I say he, just put like the bracket, sick bracket in your brain when I say it, because it’s easier than me translating in real time, you know, it’s like, uh, it’s. [00:46:21] Jeff: Talking about, um, like the first, the first work is frill after frill and embellishment after embellishment occurs to you, right? And it’s going to be used the next time, right? So then when you get your first piece done, or maybe like you ship your beta or whatever, like the next version, the temptation is to throw everything in because now you’ve like, you finally got the space to make it what you want. [00:46:41] Jeff: And then any number of fucking things happen, right? Like as you just And, and I’ve found, I’ve found this applicable in my work. Um, in the way we think about our projects and the way we think about deliverables for clients and the way we run our business, like I see it happening. It’s, it’s definitely, I see like the temptation towards it [00:47:00] in so many contexts, but it made me think of you, Brett, because one of the things that’s like such a marker of how you, how you are as a developer, um, it’s like, you are so amazing at being like, I made this thing. [00:47:13] Jeff: And then. A month later, six months later, four years later, you’re like, I just made this thing better with like 16 things. Oh, and by the way, the next day I made this other thing. And you do this for like a few days and then you stop. Right. And it’s not exactly like, you know, I made version one, I made version two. [00:47:30] Managing Software Projects [00:47:30] Jeff: It’s very different, but I’m super curious how like hearing and thinking about this idea of the second system effect, like where that resonates in your world and philosophy and approach, or if it does. [00:47:42] Brett: Well, yeah, so like Mark has been out for over a decade now. Um, and Mark one was out for about, I wanna say three years, uh, before Mark two came out. [00:48:00] And then seven plus years later, it’s still Mark two, it’s Mark 2.5, point 22, I think. Um, and. Like I got into this groove where instead of trying to make a 3. 0, um, that had all of these ideas, I just focused on one feature at a time. [00:48:24] Brett: And some of those features would take six months and some of them would go six months and then I would Discard them. I would, I would shuffle them off into a branch in the Git repo and say someday if I’m still able to merge this a year later, you know, I’ll, I’ll tackle this again, but like it became like one feature at a time. [00:48:47] Brett: And I think that is kind of the benefit of the more modern software development cycle, where things are subscription based and you’re not, you’re, you’re not trying to hit a goal of like a, [00:49:00] a major release every year and then charging upgrade prices instead. You’re just continually developing. Yeah. And you’re, you’re improving and you’re, you’re adding features without the need to make. [00:49:14] Brett: Okay. This is going to be 2. 0. Here’s all the things we want to add. Um, when I am in that kind of more archaic, uh, development mode, I’m very careful. I use like Trello boards or like Kanban, Kanban boards. Um, and like a list, like this is 2. 0, this is 2. 1, this is 2. 2, this is 3. 0. And like every feature that comes up, especially if it’s on a team where I’m collaborating. [00:49:45] Brett: Like, we all, we all decide together. This is, This is not a feature that needs to be 2. 0. We’re going to shuffle it off to three and then deal it, deal with that when we get there. Um, and then [00:50:00] like when we’re on 1. 0 and we’re planning 2. 0 features, we plan point releases like this. These are easy gets, these are easy, uh, Easy tasks, this will be 2. [00:50:10] Brett: 0. Um, this one’s going to take a couple months of development. That’s a 2. 1. Um, and try to organize those up front and yeah, every once in a while you, you get stuck on a feature that you really want. For your next release, and it takes way longer than you think. It takes a year and then your whole release schedule is, is messed up. [00:50:34] Brett: And I don’t necessarily have a where on that other than saying, if a feature takes me three months and I think it’s important for the next release, I’ll, I’ll cancel that feature. Um, I’ll shuffle it off to 3. 0. [00:50:47] Jeff: it’s, is it easy for you to stop to just say, I’m done here? Uh, or yeah, that’s [00:50:51] Brett: Yeah, well, that’s what I love about Git is I never have to like completely give up on anything. Like most of my projects [00:51:00] have 12 to 15 branches in the feature branch that are things that I’m playing with, that I was working on, that I decided not to merge. But I, like, I have bookmarks, basically. I can always load it up and be like, here are the 12 to 15 unfinished ideas that I had that they didn’t disappear. [00:51:23] Brett: I didn’t permanently give up on them. Like all the code is still there for them. Um, I just decided not to integrate it at this time. And usually I have another feature that I’m interested in working on and it’s easy to be like, all right, this is too frustrating. I’m, I’m going to switch to something because this one looks like fun right now. [00:51:47] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. [00:51:50] Christina: No, I mean, that has to be such a challenge too, like, cause there are certain, like, do you, do you run into the problem, like, like, like talking about like Envy Ultra, like that’s been, and I know that part of that like has been like in [00:52:00] stasis for a lot of reasons, but like, do you think that that’s like a, is that been like a process of like feature creep? [00:52:04] Christina: Is that just a lot of things? Because. [00:52:08] Brett: no, We’ve been very good about like, we, we have that Kanban board I was talking about, um, and, and we have it, we’re on feature freeze for 1. 0 right now. Um, any, any feature requests that come in are shuffled off to the two, maybe a 1. 2 release. Um, but 1. 0 is on feature freeze and no, we’re just waiting for Fletcher to work out a couple of bugs [00:52:34] Jeff: want to point out that at the beginning of this answer, Brett, um, put his hand under his glasses and rubbed his eyes for a minute, just to give that, that visual, you ever thought what, what would happen, Brett? I’m not trying, I don’t want this to be a painful question. Um, but I was thinking about it the other day, cause I was like, sometimes I just download NvAlt for the fuck of it, cause it just brings back good memories. [00:52:55] Jeff: Cause I, as a journalist, especially, I relied on it so much. Um, do you ever think [00:53:00] like, fuck it, I’m waiting too long. I’m going to spend two long nights. I’m going to update NvAlt just to make it basically functional and here it goes. And then I’m going to blow up the whole relationship. [00:53:10] Brett: The thought has crossed my mind. Like the whole point of Envy Ultra was because I was putting so much time into Envy Alt and not getting paid for it. Like, Envy Alt has like 500, 000 users, [00:53:24] Jeff: Still. And how about now? Do you have any idea? Like [00:53:26] Brett: I don’t. I don’t have any metrics on that. I just know like total downloads on the last release were hundreds of thousands of people. [00:53:34] Brett: Um, it is a high, a very popular fork of notational velocity. Um, and it’s, it’s dying. Like it’s, I would, I would bet nobody will be able to run it by the next OS release. Um, and the code is archaic enough that updating it is kind of. It’s a rewrite, and [00:54:00] honestly, I don’t know if you guys have seen the archive, but Christian Tietz did a great job of completely [00:54:06] Jeff: use the archive sometimes. Yeah. [00:54:08] Brett: yeah, completely replicating NVL, and there’s no point in, and FS Notes is actually really good too, and that’s a far more modern code base, and that one’s, that one’s free. [00:54:20] Jeff: somebody were literally, and I use NvAltra just to be clear, but if somebody were really looking for like, I want exactly the feel of NvAlt, but not NvAlt, the archive by Christian Tietz is totally that thing. Cause I, I go back and forth. It’s nice thing about having a markdown folder of notes, right? [00:54:35] Jeff: You can just be like, now I’m using this notes app. He did an amazing job with that. [00:54:40] Brett: Yeah, he did. [00:54:41] Jeff: Table flip too. That was at him. I [00:54:44] Brett: I think, [00:54:45] Jeff: think that was him. I love table flip. [00:54:47] Brett: TableFlip, [00:54:47] Jeff: is this Graptitude? [00:54:50] Brett: TableFlip hasn’t gotten an update for a long [00:54:52] Jeff: I still use it. I use it all the time. [00:54:54] Brett: it’s so [00:54:55] Jeff: I use it all the [00:54:56] Brett: for, for anyone who’s never heard of it, uh, TableFlip, uh, if [00:55:00] you’ve ever made a multi markdown table with all of the colons and pipes and, and all of the columns and pipes, and all the columns and pipes Trying to deal with that formatting without, there’s a good Sublime Text plugin for editing tables and various, uh, markups. [00:55:16] Jeff: fine. It’s nothing like using table flip. [00:55:18] Brett: yeah, TableFlip gives you a very spreadsheet like graphical interface for Moving, moving rows and columns and cells around, and then you can load it on any Markdown document that contains tables. You can open it in TableFlip, and any changes you make in TableFlip are reflected in your Markdown document, and vice versa. [00:55:40] Brett: It’s a, it’s [00:55:42] Jeff: It’s very Brett Terpstra. [00:55:43] Brett: yeah, it really, it feels like something I should have written, but it’s really, [00:55:48] Jeff: like very, it’s very Christian Tietz’s design aesthetic, but it’s like functionally very Brett Terpstra. The way I use, let’s just call this Graftitude, but I do have my own. Um, the way I use TableFlip [00:56:00] is like, you know how in MindMap, sometimes you need to open up a MindMap and think in a MindMap. [00:56:03] Jeff: You just know sometimes like the thing I’m trying to figure out, I need to think in a MindMap. I do like to think in, in spreadsheets, but I don’t like to think in Excel and I don’t like to think in Airtable and I don’t like to think in Google drive. I love to think in TableFlip. Like, I just find it very elegant, very easy, uh, very just sort of like, straight from brain to thing, um, beautiful. Nice job, Christian Tietz. You got yourself a bonus graftitude. [00:56:31] Brett: Bonus caps. Should we, should we. [00:56:34] Gratitude Picks: Software Tools and Apps [00:56:34] Brett: We’re almost at an hour, we should probably do Gravtitude, [00:56:37] Jeff: it. Let’s do it. [00:56:38] Christina: yeah, I have, I have things. [00:56:40] Brett: Okay, you want Sarcrasino? [00:56:42] Christina: Yeah, I will. Okay, so the first one I want to, I have two actually. The first I wanted to talk about is Carbon Copy Cloner 7, uh, which I missed. I didn’t realize that 7, um, uh, came out a couple weeks ago. Um, this is the, the app that I have used. I, I used to either use this or SuperDuper, but I’ve been using Carbon Copy Cloner [00:57:00] as kind of my backup app, um, for Mac OS. [00:57:03] Christina: For, uh, at least a decade at this point. And, um, uh, Carbon Copy Cloner 6 came out, I think about two years ago. Um, I’d have to look and see, um, when, when the update was, but, um, this is, um, uh, the interface is the same as Carbon Copy, uh, Cloner 6. Um, and if, uh, one of the nice things about how they’ve done the upgrade, the upgrade, I think is 25 bucks for, um, for existing, um, uh, owners. [00:57:28] Christina: And I think it’s like 50 now for, for new, um, um, uh, licenses. One of the nice things about how I like the um, the way that the new version trial works out is you can try the new version, but if you don’t want to buy it, if you don’t want to keep it, you can just immediately go back to, to version six. Um, it, it won’t mess anything up, um, for you that way. [00:57:49] Christina: Uh, but one of the things that this has added is it’s added a feature, um, that I haven’t used cause I don’t know how useful it would be for me, but it has like a, a, iOS devices [00:58:00] on your Mac. And, um, it, it also, um, you know, has now, um, uh, more, uh, more snapshot, uh, abilities in terms of, uh, for, for, for local snapshot management. [00:58:11] Christina: Um, and so, um, I don’t like Time Machine and I’ve, I’ve had problems with Time Machine over the years and also Time Machine just isn’t always, like, doesn’t fit my, my mental model well. Like, I feel like if I’m doing network backups, I use Synology’s stuff for that. Like I, I, I don’t You know, Time Machine is just, also if you enable it, then like if the local things are turned on, then those can take up tons of hard drive space, and, and macOS is not good with caching, period. [00:58:38] Christina: So that is really not a good thing. They’re [00:58:41] Brett: I’m a SuperDuper guy. Um, have been for years. Why, why would I switch to Carbon Copy Cloner? [00:58:48] Christina: If I can be completely candid, it’s because it’s more updated. It’s, it’s, they, they are much better about updating things and like working around weird stuff that happens and with like the file [00:58:57] Brett: do they do AFPS [00:59:00] snapshots? [00:59:00] Christina: Oh yeah, yeah, [00:59:02] Brett: is one of the things I love about newer versions of SuperDuper. is snapshots. Um, like I use a combination of SuperDuper, Backblaze, um, uh, Time Machine and Synology Drive. Um, and between those four, I can use, unless, every once in a while, I’ll accidentally delete. It happened one time, I downloaded our, um, podcast episode Didn’t download it. [00:59:34] Brett: We were recording with like, uh, Audio Hijack, I think I was using and I accidentally deleted. The files permanently. And it was too soon for any of my backup systems to have picked it up and, and backed it up. And I, if I felt very impotent, having four different backups running and still having lost an hour worth of audio.[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Brett: Um, but in general, I never lose anything that is more than half an hour old. I definitely have versions and backups of. [01:00:10] Christina: Yeah, I’m not that good. But like I, I, I typically use, I don’t use Time machine, but I, I typically use the other things. I would say this, if Super Duper works for you, there’s no reason for you to use something else. But I know that Super Duper has been, uh, slower to update to the latest Maca West versions and that they had some, some, um, more difficulties. [01:00:28] Christina: Both, both of these companies, ’cause both of the developers I think, you know, are friendly with one another and work together. Like they, there were some changes to how file system handling worked. Um. For me, it really just came down to like when I, cause I, I’ve used them both. It just came down to when I was looking at which one to invest in, it was like, whenever I made the decision, however long ago it was, um, uh, Carbon Copy Cloner seemed to have a little bit more robust and a little more frequent, um, dev cycle, but you know, but, but if it works for you, it works for you, but yeah, um, but it does do all the, the, um, you know, [01:01:00] APFS snapshot stuff and it not, it does it for, for, for backup versioning as well. [01:01:04] Christina: Um, and, um, Uh, I don’t know. I, I, I like it. It’s just one of those things that I, I have, you know, license to that I keep, like when I had to use, um, when I had to do that ridiculous backup of my mom’s computer, um, a few months ago, like carbon copy cloner was the thing that came in clutch for that. Um, but the second app I wanna talk about, this is a bigger thing when we talk kind of about like, you know, like the importance of Indy software and keeping things up. [01:01:29] Christina: An app that I’ve used for a really long time as bartender, I know we’ve, it’s probably been a gratitude pick that we’ve done before. Bartender, which is a, an app to man, uh, to manage the, the macOS menu bar, which can become unwieldy and which if you’ve got like a, a newer MacBook with a notch on it, especially if you’ve got a smaller size one, like frankly, there are instances where the built in management system, you will literally run out of room. [01:01:52] Christina: And so, uh, why Apple doesn’t have a built in way of hiding and accessing menu bars? I don’t know, but they don’t. Um, so I, you [01:02:00] know, menu bar is a thing that I’ve used for years. It was sold. And this was not disclosed to anyone. Uh, it was sold to some Chinese company, nothing wrong with that. But, um, the only reason it came through was because it [01:02:13] Jeff: my best friends are Chinese [01:02:14] Christina: Well, I mean, I don’t know. [01:02:15] Christina: I’m just I’m just saying like I’m not I’m not I’m not saying that just the fact [01:02:18] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, [01:02:19] Christina: company on its own is a bad thing. The sketchy part is that no one knew but the Certificate had changed in Mac updater. And so somebody reached out and realized oh This has a new owner and they put like a weird help document on their website Which did not explain why you would need to run certain commands to basically reauthorize Um, uh, the, the, the system and update that for the, for the new, um, you know, um, uh, security certificate. [01:02:47] Christina: Um, and until somebody on Reddit basically, they, they acknowledged, Oh yeah, this has been sold. We’ve, we’ve owned this for a couple of months now. After kind of the uproar, uh, the original developer of, um, uh, Bartender released a [01:03:00] statement on his website and the main website that said, Hey, I sold this a few months ago because support burden was too much. [01:03:05] Christina: And I wanted to go on and do other things with my life. Hey, great, no problem, but like all that felt like a little bit too little too late for me, and I don’t know anything about this new company. They’re not being forthcoming at all about, um, you know, what, what kind of their plans are. I think that, you know, they want to add some widgets. [01:03:23] Christina: into the, the system, um, it looks like the, the company that bought it, they buy primarily iOS apps and, um, you know, uh, probably turn them into subscription products. So who knows what’s going to happen with Bartender? I know people, I think they’re being ridiculous about like some of the security concerns. [01:03:40] Christina: They’re like, oh, well, you know, the accessibility concerns this happens has always been a, Question for me and blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, fuck off. Like, I genuinely think you’re overthinking this. So many good apps have to enable weird settings, um, to work. Having said that, I do fully understand people feeling weirded out by the app now. [01:03:59] Christina: [01:04:00] And so, um, there’s an app called, there are a couple of apps, uh, there’s, that are open source, um, and available. One is called Hidden, um, and it’s in the Mac App Store. Um, it’s also on GitHub, but that hasn’t been updated in years. So the one that I’ve been playing with is called Ice. It’s open source. Um, it’s, it’s on GitHub. [01:04:17] Christina: Um, although, uh, people should definitely sponsor the developer if you get value out of it. And it’s not as good as menu bar was in terms of like every little feature that it had, there were still some things on its roadmap, like dragging and dropping, you know, the interface to rearrange individual items and searching menu bar items. [01:04:36] Christina: And, and some, um, other stuff, um, and displaying hidden items in a separate bar. Um, those are all on the roadmap, but it has the basic stuff, um, there and it has a pretty good, um, uh, user interface and the, and the development is active. So, um, uh, ICE is, uh, is one of my gratitude picks for people who might be, uh, looking for a bartender alternative now that, you know, we don’t really know [01:05:00] whether we can or can’t trust these new [01:05:02] Brett: Yeah, so do you, do you know, I’m using the set app version of Bartender. Um, has that been, has that been updated with the new, [01:05:12] Christina: As far as I can tell, no. As far as I can tell, they’ve updated, like, who the, the maker is in the app, but it has not updated the app version itself, and let me look at it. Um, so, like, if you’re running the setup version, I think you’re actually fine, but who knows when they might, You know, push that out. And even so, like, I, I also trust that, like, the setup folks are gonna, you know, do the, the vetting that they need to do and whatnot. [01:05:35] Christina: Like, I’m not concerned from a security perspective. I really don’t think anybody else should be either. Although people are, you know, pulling up a little snitch to show, oh, it’s phoning home, it’s doing this and that. I’m like, okay, genuinely, you need to chill because basically everything you use, you know, calls back to something. [01:05:52] Christina: I, I, but I don’t think [01:05:53] Jeff: get little stitches. [01:05:54] Christina: Right. But like, you know, I’m just saying like, that’s good. That’s good. [01:06:00] Um, but I think that the, I think that the version on Setapp, yeah, let me see. Um, yeah, the version here is still from, um, uh, December, which was, um, before it was sold. So they’ve updated [01:06:12] Brett: I’ve got a little time, but I, Ice looks really good. I’m going to check that [01:06:16] Jeff: Yeah, it does. Mine is simple. This is probably the only time either, either of us have, have, uh, suggested a GitHub repo that hasn’t been updated in seven years, but I’m going to do exactly that. Um, and it’s a project actually from, from many years ago called Taco Fancy. And it’s a, it’s a GitHub repo that a bunch of journalists started by this journalist, Dan Sinker at the time we used to run Punk Planet Magazine. [01:06:42] Jeff: And, um, and he was working for this kind of interesting, um, Journalism, sort of organization called Source at the time. And, and a whole bunch of journalists from like major media organizations, other people that were doing like hacker journalism or like, you know, nerd teams that at the Washington Post or NPR or whatever [01:07:00] at that time, like they had a real like energy together. [01:07:02] Jeff: And so when someone came up with a stupid project, it just went crazy with people who were incredibly competent. And this one was like, I want. taco recipes. I’m tired of what I, what I normally have. And so it’s a GitHub repo where everyone could just upload not only like full taco recipes, but like how to make your favorite condiments for tacos, mixins, seasonings, shells, and my favorite, uh, a whole section just called like tacos. [01:07:26] Jeff: Um, and at the time, what was really fun, there’s a lot of stuff that either was in development by just people out in the world, like somebody made an API for it, which is awesome. Somebody was working on a Twitter bot that would just like do random. Taco recipes. Someone had a taco randomizer up. It’s hosted on Heroku. [01:07:43] Jeff: It’s not there anymore. Um, but I, so I both suggest it as an amazing taco cookbook. If you go to like the full index link inside of the repo. Um, but also it’s just like a, a, a reminder of how fun, um, Like collaborative repos can be. Um, and, and this [01:08:00] was just a great little spirited thing that I still, sometimes I went to it recently, which is why I’m bringing it up to, uh, to, to make something. [01:08:07] Jeff: So for instance, uh, in the like tacos category, there’s something called a sad Mexican grilled cheese. So it’s also very funny at times. So anyway, I recommend it. It’s a good time. And it’s actually, it was made in part, uh, it was. It, it, there’s a whole piece of like, if you’re new to GitHub, here’s how to learn GitHub through Taco Fancy. [01:08:26] Jeff: So just kinda like served a lot of, yeah. Served a lot of cool functions while also just being an awesome little cookbook. [01:08:33] Brett: That’s very cool. I know you’ve shown this to me [01:08:35] Jeff: I, you know what, the last time I was on systematic, which I think was the last systematic episode, it was my pick one of my picks. [01:08:44] Brett: All right. Um, I’m going this week with Tower, which I’m sure I’ve mentioned before, but it is, it has been, uh, a powerhouse for me lately. Um, they’ve actually asked me to do like, uh, they have a [01:09:00] series of developers using Tower profiles that I’m gonna do an interview for, but, um, like things like, So you can look at your, it’s for Git, for anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, it’s a, it’s a GUI for Git. [01:09:17] Brett: Um, [01:09:17] Jeff: I’m gooey. Forget [01:09:19] Brett: and there’s a, there’s a lot of stuff I just do on the command line. Your, your typical, like what I’m committing, uh, add and commit, I just do on the command line. But if you want to do a complex merge fix, if you want to do a fix up or a squash on your commits, uh, why wouldn’t you use. a graphical interface. [01:09:42] Brett: Like, why would you sit there and figure out hash, hashes for which, which commit to go back to, which commits to squash? Uh, like, it’s so much easier when you have a graphical interface and you can just select, you can select two commits, hold down option, [01:10:00] drag them onto another one, and then turn them into fix ups for that commit, which is, like, being able to do that was why I mentioned it, because that, That blew me away. [01:10:08] Brett: They also have a command Z, um, which can undo almost any Git operation, which is like, if, if you make an errant, uh, you, you commit and you push, and then you want to redo the commit, um, after you’ve pushed, like these are not, these are complex Git command line tasks to accomplish and, you know, And, uh, and Tower literally added Command Z, which lets you do just about anything in the reflog you can undo, which is awesome. [01:10:49] Brett: So, uh, if you use Git, if you do any development, I know there are authors that use Git for writing, which is really cool. Um, [01:11:00] so limited, limited application. I feel like a lot of our audience will know what I’m talking about. Um, Tower is. I mean, you’ve got, you got GitKraken, you got, um, some semi graphical interfaces that work in, in the command line. [01:11:17] Brett: You have options, but Tower [01:11:19] Jeff: got VS. Codes. Nice little functionality, but nothing like [01:11:22] Christina: is actually great, um, [01:11:23] Jeff: I [01:11:24] Christina: lot of [01:11:24] Jeff: it. [01:11:25] Brett: Agreed. And, uh, Git Sav Git I think it’s Git Savvy in Sublime Text is, uh, really good, but yeah, again, not nothing compared to Tower. Tower is sweet. [01:11:37] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. [01:11:38] Brett: And Tower has GitHub integrations, as of, like, last year, so you can do, like, pull request management. And commenting and everything right inside of Tower, which is slick. [01:11:51] Christina: It’s very good [01:11:52] Farewell and Final Thoughts [01:11:52] Brett: All right, uh, we did not get to talk about the Kat Katizen, Katzen Coffee Bar. [01:11:58] Jeff: yeah, we’ll talk about it. It’s [01:12:00] evergreen. [01:12:00] Brett: we’ll save that. And, uh, yeah, thanks you guys. [01:12:05] Jeff: All right, [01:12:06] Brett: I will see, I will see at least one of you next week. I don’t remember. [01:12:11] Christina: going to be me. It’s going to be me. And, uh, have a great, uh, coming up week, Jeff, with the family and everything. [01:12:17] Jeff: thank you. Thank you. All right everybody, get some sleep. [01:12:21] Brett: get some sleep.

In this episode of Overtired, hosts Jeff, Brett, and Christina discuss a variety of topics ranging from outdoor experiences with mosquitoes and birds to in-depth health conversations involving weight loss drugs and mental health updates. They also delve into issues with Spotify, the challenges of managing subscriptions and permissions, and explore new technologies and apps, such as Kino and Fish Shell. The episode wraps up with a discussion on entertainment preferences and grAPPtitude shoutouts.

Vacations and day jobs, AI search and web traffic, laptops and browser wars.

Our hosts talk about hating the city you live in, which muppets would be the best cellmates, anarchy, and Taylor Swift.

Jeff is on Spring Break, so Christina and Brett keep the show going with a heavily tech-oriented episode. From security back doors to complaining about Apple software, it's all the tech talk you could want.

Erin Dawson, fresh off her latest tour, joins the gang to tell tales from the road. Plus the much-anticipated picks of the week!

The gang waxes nostalgic about classic viral sites, discusses the best RSS readers, and gets back into the Mental Health Corner after a couple weeks off.

A somewhat manic episode that covers everything (BUT the Mental Health Corner, which is a 404 again). Kicking it off with an in memoriam app pick, opining about Microsoft Word and Excel, and the Grammy talk you knew was coming.

Bryan Guffey returns to talk coffee, religion, and mental health, possibly all at once. Maybe.

Merlin Mann joins the show to talk mental health, generative AI, and be an all around fun guy.

Yeah, it's another 2-hour episode. Jay Miller is back to talk retail therapy, keyboards, and Tetris. We threw in the usual grAPPtitude picks, so don't miss 'em!

Alex Cox joins the crew to talk about mental health, Raspberry Pi, the New York Times, and some awesome Grapptitude picks for the week.

Taylor Swift is Time's Person of the Year, mostly thanks to our tireless promotion at Overtired. Brett's having dark thoughts and the gang helps him clarify a few things.

Brett and Jeff hold the fort down, with mental health checkins and some very, very nerdy talk of clean installs, Brett's projects, and their favorite apps.

The crew is back together again, talking about internalized homophobia and the Grammys, but in different segments. That was a weird sentence. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to write show descriptions.

Jay Miller joins Brett and Christina to talk about life in Developer Relations, a little bit of Taylor Swift, and some intriguing app discussions.