Property Management Growth with DoorGrow

Recently, one of our clients, Derek Morton, shared an incredible story from a networking event where he transformed his booth into a blackjack table to illustrate that property owners shouldn't "gamble" with their rentals. When a prospect tried to pressure Derek into matching a competitor's price by a mere half-percent, Derek firmly refused, explaining that he refuses to build a portfolio around owners willing to jump ship over such tiny margins.12 In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the vital importance of being selective about who you serve and why taking on "bad" owners creates a "cycle of suck" that destroys profitability and personal happiness.  Jason and Sarah explore the foundational mistake of targeting everyone, explaining that identifying exactly who you want to serve is the first step in building a business. They apply the "Pumpkin Plan" principle of clearing rot from a business to prevent bad clients from spreading negativity throughout an entire operation.345 The discussion also highlights how poor client filtering leads to a "cycle of suck" featuring bad properties, bad tenants, and bad reviews, which ultimately traps owners in a "race to the bottom" on price. By being picky, business owners can significantly lower operational costs and achieve elite profit margins, sometimes reaching 60% to 90%. Finally, the hosts introduce a three-day initiative designed to help entrepreneurs diagnose why their growth has stalled and how to pivot toward attracting "good" clients rather than just "any" clients. You'll Learn [01:08] - The Blackjack Table Lesson: A story about a client using a blackjack-themed booth to teach owners not to "gamble" with rentals and why he refuses price-shoppers. [05:50] - The Pumpkin Plan & The Cycle of Suck: Applying Mike Michalowicz's "Pumpkin Plan" to clear out "rot" and avoid the downward spiral of bad properties and tenants. [07:46] - Maximizing Profit Margins through Selectivity: How being picky lowers operational costs and enables elite profit margins between 50% and 90%.4 08:30 - Diagnosing Stagnant Growth: Introducing a new three-day team-led initiative to help stalled businesses identify why they are stuck and create a fix. [11:34] - Avoiding the "Property Management" Product Trap: Why selling "property management" is the wrong approach and the importance of a unique offer for your target audience. Quotables "If we took on every owner and if we took on the wrong owners, we would no longer be happy, and we would no longer love what we do. And this would become a real pain in the ass." "If you target everyone, you are guaranteed to be miserable in your own business." "You can only have a ridiculously good margin in your business if you're picky about your clients." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) Alright, five, four, three, two, Alright.   What was that? Something broke. Five, four, three, two, one. Hans goes, smash. All right, Hans, out of here. We have a dog in, two dogs in here. All right, we're going to try that over again. Five, four, three, two, one. All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. This is Sarah Hull, the COO of DoorGrow, co-owner. And we're the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential.   property management entrepreneurs on the planet. We're the best on the planet. So for over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to build the industry, transform it. There's a dog walking around on my feet right now. Change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management.   entrepreneurs when now let's get into the show. is awesome. I love when she brings the dogs in right before the show. He's like running into stuff like cables are falling down. I don't even know what I I'm gonna have to find what he did and try to fix it. I don't even know. Good times. All right. So what are we chatting about today? Sarah? I was going to share some good news that one of our clients   was messaging back and forth with me on the weekend. Derek Morton, he's out in Utah and he was at an event over this weekend and it was a really cool event. I wish I could have been there, but he, like everybody gets their booth, right? You get your booth and you have your setup and everybody hopefully comes over and you get some leads. That's not how Derek does things.   at all. So Derek gets a booth and turns it into, I think it was Blackjack. And there, I mean, he had the the dice and the table set up and he got a, ⁓ a, a card dealer and he had the chips, but the chips were like customized with his brand name. And the whole thing looks amazing. It was, it was really awesome.   And the theme was, don't gamble with your rentals. Right? So obviously... Very cute, very clever. Yeah. One of the way more interesting booths at an event. Yeah. Come play blackjack. Now, it's not gambling. That's not legal, but they did have blackjack, so you can come play hand, but it wasn't gambling. And there was a lot of interest at the booth. There was a lot of excitement at the booth, which is great.   And there was a property owner that was at their booth, Derek was there, and the guy was saying, yeah, you know, I've got five units and I work with this other property manager now. Derek said, yeah, that's great. It's awesome. Like, how are things going? And he's like, yeah, things are going well. Like, I like the property manager. That's great. And I guess he was expecting to be sold too, because then he was kind of like, and so, you know, what would you do for me then? And Derek said, well,   Like, you know, this is kind of what we do. This is what we offer. And the guy was like, all right, well, how much do you charge? And he, you know, was telling him, hey, you know, we've got some plans you can kind of choose from. And the guy said, well, you know, my current property manager, they charge, I think it was like 7%, whatever it was, who knows. Let's call it 10 % because that's really common in the industry. So, all right, well, my property manager charges 10%. And essentially it was, you know, what are you going to do for me? And.   Derek goes, yeah, this is where we sit. And the guy goes, you're not going to try to beat it. He's like, no, no, we're not. He goes, let me ask you something. If you're at 10 % right now, if we charged, if we did like 9 and 1 percent, would you switch over to us? And the guy said, yeah, yeah, I would do that. I switch over. And he goes, for 9 and 1 half percent, yeah, I'll switch over. Yeah. And Derek said, yeah, and that's exactly the type of owner that we don't take on.   Okay. The guy was flabbergasted, not expecting that at all. He said, well, you know, listen, with all due respect, you know, I just met you. We're having a conversation. You're at my booth. You know, you're playing some blackjack. That's great. If you're ready and willing to dump the property manager that you work with over half of a percentage, which ends up being like five bucks in a 20 minute conversation, then where is that going to lead me?   So pretty much anyone that undercuts that price, you're just going to jump ship. didn't even try to do anything and you're already ready to jump ship over half of a percent. He said, yeah, we don't take on owners like that. That's not when we build our portfolio around. And that was such a cool message for me to get. I love that. ⁓ And I was really excited that that's just Derek.   A lot of people would be like, well, you we don't really do that. Derek is like, yeah, that's exactly the type of owner that we don't take on. He's so, he's not like, doesn't, yeah, he doesn't, he pull punches at all, which is great. That's why we like him. But really, he said to me, you know, one of the things that we've done really well, and they're a sizable company. And he said, but we, we're happy. We love what we do.   And really that's a testament to the owners that we work with. And if we took on every owner, and if we took on the wrong owners, we would no longer be happy and we would no longer love what we do. And this would become a real pain in the ass. And that's just not what I'm looking for. Because I love what we do. And part of that is being able to say no to the people who aren't a fit. Yeah, I love it. I mean, before you start a business, the very first thing you need to figure out is who do I actually want to work   Who do I want to serve? That's the foundation of the business and a lot of times people are like everyone. And if you target everyone you are guaranteed to be miserable in your own business. That means you're not going to filter out anyone. You're going to just let everybody in. Really good book on the subject is The Pumpkin Plan by Mike McCallewitz and he talks about this principle. He's been on my podcast twice. Our podcast now.   So, but he's been on here twice. And he's also spoken at our DoorGrowth live conference and sharing this principle is basically, you know, if you allow everything to be in your business, then your business is gonna be full of rot and rot spreads. It compares it to a pumpkin patch. You have to clear out the moldy crows pumpkins or the rot spreads. And ⁓ Derek, you know, he's smart because...   he probably at some point had some of that in his business, was like, this isn't worth it, this isn't the type of people I wanna deal with, they're not treating my team and my staff appropriately or kind. some people that's not the business they wanna run, if you're one of our clients, that's what we coach you, is get really clear on who you wanna serve and filter out everybody else. Because if you take on bad clients, it gets you into the cycle of suck that we teach, which means.   you then have bad properties, which leads to having bad tenants, which means then you have bad reviews, and then you attract more bad clients. And then you end up in this weird race to the bottom with everybody else trying to compete on price. And that's the worst place to be competing. And so you can be unique in the marketplace by being the best, being picky about the clients you take on, and your operational costs are going to be a lot lower. So...   Derek has much lower operational costs than most property management companies because he doesn't take on the really difficult owners. He makes sure that the owners are willing to put the work in and the money into the properties to make sure they're taken care of well, to make sure tenants are taken care of well. And that makes it a lot easier for them to do their job as a property manager. And so it doesn't matter if he could have like,   200 more doors if you would be making half the margins or even the same margins. I had a client with 600 doors that was on one of these podcast episodes. When he first came to me, he had 600 doors and was making zero dollars. And so if you have bad doors, bad owners, you have to have a lot more staff and then it's really easy to lose all your money and not be very profitable. And we've gotten some of our clients up to 50 % profit margin. Sarah had 60 to 90 % profit margin.   in her business. You can only have ridiculously good margin in your business if you're picky about your clients. You have to get rid of bad clients and bad properties. Yeah. Or just say no to them in the first place. Right. Yeah. So if you're wondering, I think this actually worked out way better. I did not plan this, but the, what are we calling it? The growth blueprint. that what we're calling it? We're calling it the PM.   growth audit, I believe. No, we're not calling it a audit. Well, I know that. I thought it was a blueprint. Nope, we're not calling it a blueprint. We're calling it the PM growth leak audit. It's not when we're not going to call it an audit. Well, that's what I have programmed all of our tools to talk about it as. Then we get to reprogram that because... Because blueprints are overdone. Nobody wants a blueprint anymore.   So people want to pay maybe for an audit. So I don't know. But whatever you want to call it, challenge, audit, blueprint. But it's to help you find the leaks in your business related to growth. All right. So where I was going with that, whatever we decide to call this thing is stay tuned, I guess. OK. TBD. But ⁓ that's going to be something that we end up launching very soon, where you'll work one-on-one with   someone from our team and they will take you through. It'll be a three day thing. Dogs trying to jump up on my lap. All right, why not? Come here, Hans. Come here. Come here. Okay. All right. He's all the way up here. All right. Okay. For those of you who are watching the video, this is Hans.   Hi, where are you going? This is awkward because I'm sitting on a ball. Whatever we call this, you'll get to work with someone on our team for three days to help you figure out why growth has been stagnant or not moving as fast as you want it to be. Because a lot of people are totally stuck and they're just stalled out and stuck at the same point and they might fluctuate.   gain a little, lose a little, gain a little, lose a little. And there's a lot of people that are also, they want more growth and it's just not happening exactly the way that they would like it to happen. They're getting some growth, but they're not getting the amount of growth that they are really hoping for or looking for. And we have identified a few patterns. So we've decided, hey, let's help people figure out why their growth is just...   stalled. Maybe the growth stalled. I don't know. We'll call it something. ⁓ stay tuned for that because I think probably by the time this airs that will be live. That will be launched. So if you're wondering why growth might be stalled or stuck in your business and how you can grow more and get more clients and the good clients, not just any clients, but the good clients because that's what's important.   then reach out to us because by the time you hear this episode, unless you're watching it live, if you're watching it live, we can't help you quite yet, but stay tuned for like a week. Give us like a week. And if everyone else, when you're watching the replay, when it launches, then if that is you, reach out to our team and we will walk you through it. And you'll walk away with a plan and you'll know exactly what's going wrong and what to do to fix it. Okay.   I'm being tongue mauled by this dog. Okay, Huns. All right, you're going down. No, Captain, you can't come up. Okay, fine. Come here. Hi. Where's the other one? the other one. Okay. Okay. He looks so sad to I don't know what else to say about this. All right, so next time we will not bring the dogs in here.   This is not effective. Not effective. All right. So but possibly entertaining. So if you liked if you liked seeing the dogs just like comment on this dogs and then see he'll have to do more of it. I don't know. You let me know. You'd be the judge. Yeah. All right. Well with that I think the message today then is you've got to figure out how to be unique in your market because   If you're the same as everybody else, they might as well just go with the cheapest company. that is, you know, nobody also, it's important to realize nobody also wakes up in the morning and goes, I want to buy property management today. Property management is the wrong product. And this is one of the things in this challenge audit, whatever we're going to call it thing is that we will help reveal to you, we'll help you expose and we'll help you make sure that you have a really good offer.   you have a really good understanding of your target audience because without those things really dialed in from the beginning, you're going to have a less healthy business. And so a lot of people have a blind spot around all of this and they just go out there and try and get clients, try and grow their business. And they wonder why it's so hard, but it's because you're selling the wrong thing and you've started the wrong business. And so, and this stuff is very easy to clean up and we can help you with that. Cool. All right. So.   If, my gosh, dogs are just bumping into me. If you have felt stuck or stagnant and you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com for free training on how to get unlimited free leads. Text the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also, you can join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks,   ideas and to learn about our offer subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe and if you found this a little bit helpful don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'd really appreciate it until next time remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone so let's grow together bye everyone   I can't this.   I don't know. We're stuck on the podcast forever.   How about the red end phone call button?

Today, Jason and Sarah Hull attended a high-level mastermind in Boise, Idaho, where they were surrounded by top entrepreneurs, learning firsthand how proximity to the right people can completely shift your mindset and business trajectory.  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason Hull and Sarah Hull discuss the power of in-person masterminds, why one insight from the right room can change everything, and how stepping out of your environment is essential for real transformation and business growth. You'll Learn [00:01] Introduction and Purpose of the Episode [03:10] Inside the Boise Mastermind Experience [06:00] Why the Right Room Changes Everything [10:20] The Power of In-Person Transformation [20:30] The Problem With Growing Behind a Screen [32:20] Thinking Bigger and Expanding Vision [44:10] Invitation to Join the DoorGrow Mastermind Quotables "You don't need that much, you need one thing from the right person, and that is really enough to pay for the whole year of the program, which is incredible." " "Transformation comes by getting you in person and changing the business owner." "If you don't change your environment, that's the challenge is you if you if you're always in your office, you're always behind a screen, you're always on your phone, whatever, that environment is the environment you're already in, you have to change the environment in order to change the person." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:01) Five, four, three, two, one. All right, we are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses.   We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. Okay, so in today's episode, we are gonna be chatting about what, Sarah? We just went to...   weird place to go, but we voluntarily went to Boise, Idaho. What? Boise is a cool place. Boise is a cool place. It's but chilly temperature wise. Okay. Affirmative. It's better than... I'm not going to start ripping on places. This is not a good precedent to set. All of your places, if you're listening, are awesome, including... I think Boise is super cool. It's a beautiful area. Beautiful area.   Okay, Sarah is not a fan of Boise apparently, but I like Boise. So my two favorite places that I was thinking of living were Boise and Austin, and we ended up in Boise. We did not end up in Boise. mean, we ended up in Austin. That's what I meant. We ended up in Austin. All right, can we move forward? so we went to an event in Boise. Russell Brunson. Cool, Russell Brunson's headquarters is in Boise.   So we went there and we are part of his inner circle, which is a $50,000 a year mastermind. And we're always trying to learn from the best. think he is probably the most savvy internet marketer on the face of the earth right now, or at least one of the top. And he's quite brilliant. And he's just a really good human and he attracts really, really cool entrepreneur, entrepreneurial people, like the people that he curates.   So the people in the mastermind make it way cooler. Like as one of the ladies said when we were there, she's like, I thought Russell's cool, but you're all cooler. yeah. She said, I joined for Russell. I She said, I only joined for Russell, but you know what? You guys are like so awesome. Like you guys make this way better than I even thought. And she said, don't tell Russell I said that. But I'm kind of here for you guys now. Yeah. All right.   Cool, so, and we got to hang out and they split us up into rooms and they put kind of a, I don't know, like a leader or a coach over each room. And we had Annie Grace who had been in a previous mastermind with me with Alex Sharpen. And she wrote a really awesome book called This Naked Mind, built this empire helping people get free from the addiction of alcohol and doing something very different than what's typically done that's been very, very effective.   And she's been very close to Russell and learned a lot of really cool stuff and she scaled her business very large. And so it was great to have her leading the room. So first we had this badass, Annie Grace leading the room. And then in our room, we also had Myron Golden, which if any of you have ever followed any of his stuff, like this guy helps people, tenets their businesses just by helping them shift their money mindset, help them shift their thing about fees and stuff. He doesn't target property management business owners.   We haven't even paid money to Myron yet, but we got to hang out in the room with him and he does some extremely high ticket coaching. And so it was really cool to have him in the room, give feedback. And we also, who else do we have in the room? Dr. Benjamin Hardy. Awesome guy, right? Yeah. So Ben Hardy. So if you ever heard of the book 10 X is easier than two X or who not how, or all these, he's written a lot of books.   Science of scaling his latest one really awesome time as a tool He was in the room giving hanging out with us as well. We were hanging out with Richmond din he is and runs an eight figure coaching bit or business to helping people with tiny challenges and like there's just there was so many there's another guy that has a VA company I think he said he told me he's doing 50 million a year. So we were hanging out in the room with cool people   and we got to present and share and then we got to get feedback from others, which was really awesome. So it was just really cool. So what do we want to tell them about this? So one of the things that we have known for a really long time is being in rooms like that is just so powerful and it's really it's invaluable. Yeah. Because one little thing that you can take away, just one, you don't need a list, you don't need, you know, notebooks.   You don't need all this. Oh, I know what to do and I've got 15 things That I'm gonna do this week and then after that I've got the next 98 on my list like that's probably too much You don't need that much you need one thing from the right person and that is really enough to pay for the whole year of Program which is incredible. Yeah   It's connected us with such amazing incredible growth minded very outward focused People who are looking to change the world and have an impact and do amazing things. They're not you know, just in it because They want to be they're not just in it because they go, you know, I guess I can make some money Yeah, like they're they're looking to really have an impact and make it   tremendous change in this world and being connected with people like that at events like this is so incredible and every single time that we go to one of these events I never know what we're going to get out of it before we go. I just know that it's going to be amazing. So I don't go into it   Looking for a specific thing. I don't go into it thinking okay I need to figure out how to do this or I need this answer or I need to do this thing or talk to this person or get this you know answer to this question or you know this Strategy that I'm looking for I never go into it with anything most of the events that we've gone to We go into it Sometimes not even feeling like we need anything Yeah, lot of times we just go   And we go, I don't really think I need anything. think we're pretty solid. Let's just be in the room. And even when you go into it with that mindset, man, you still get stuck. You still, you still, go, man, I didn't even know that I needed that. And I'm so glad that we were there. I'm so glad that we got it. And sometimes it's just being around people who think the same way that you do or think even bigger.   than you do because if you think, hey, you know, I've made it, right? Like we all have that moment in life where we go, I'm like, made it, I'm good, I make this much, I can take care of my family, I can, you know, do the things that I want and have the things that I want and, you know, have this lifestyle that maybe is even better than you had ever imagined. And sometimes we go, okay, I've arrived, I'm here, I've made it. And then you get into a room like that and you go, wow, there's so much more.   There's so much more that I can do and there's so much more that I can give and there's so much more that I can be. Yes. Amazing. So good. Yeah. So I've been in a lot of different masterminds. and I together have been in several and yeah, being around the right people is what it takes to level up. Your business is the sum of the five entrepreneurs or   business owners that you spend the most time with basically. And you need to be in the right room. And so we've decided, know, we recently, one of our mentors, Aaron Stokes, was, he founded ShopFix Academy, he coaches auto repair shops. He was very generous and we worked with him and he taught us a lot of stuff. He recently passed and he crashed his plane, which was really sad. I really had a hard time kind of.   coming to grips with that and being in Boise was helpful for that. I got to share with everybody some of the stuff with our group that I had learned from Aaron, which was awesome because Aaron's stuff was really great. I shared about the importance of believing in people and hope and how that actually affects your clients more than your tactics and how I rarely end a coaching call without telling the person, hey, I believe in you, you can do this. And that's from Aaron.   And so I shared a little bit of some of the things Aaron taught and it was awesome because it was nice to see the caliber of people that we were in the room with resonate with it and see Myron Golden thanking me for sharing that and other people that, you know, just saying, hey, this is true. This is awesome stuff. We have decided to shift our own mastermind to being more in-person. Why? So.   The challenge is most property managers are stuck trying to grow from behind a screen. They're watching webinars, they're sitting on Zoom calls, they're collecting PDFs maybe that they'll never read, and they're wondering why nothing ever changes. Have you ever been there? I've been there. Things didn't really start to happen for me until I started getting in the room. Now, there's a lot of stuff you can learn and things that can happen digitally, but what we found is that when people are in person, something shifts.   Transformation is what's needed to grow the business. As Erin would say, if you change the owner of the business, you change the shop. Fix the owner, fix the shop. So if we fix the property management business owner, if we can trans, and that's been our mission statement, our mission statement at DoorGrow is to transform property management business owners and their businesses. But we know that   Transformation comes by getting you in person and changing the business owner. We just don't see it happen digitally. just, it doesn't work as well. So we started onboarding all of our clients in person and that's been huge. It's been huge in so many ways, getting deep into their business, identifying a ton of problems that they would hide behind a screen and not share, getting real about them, getting transparent. And so there's just been big shifts with that. Now we're shifting to our   activities and our events being in person. And so if you don't change your environment, that's the challenge is you if you if you're always in your office, you're always behind a screen, you're always on your phone, whatever, that environment is the environment you're already in, you have to change the environment in order to change the person. And so the people around you, they aren't moving fast enough, they don't think big enough. And nobody's holding you to the standard that you know you're capable of. And so the door grow mastermind that we've   curated and created has amazing people. And so we want these people to be around each other, rubbing shoulders, getting to know each other, creating friendships, finding mentors, finding heroes, people they look up to. I've had people that I looked up to like Aaron and they changed our business. And so this mastermind, it's about getting serious. It's about coming out, spending time here in Austin with us, getting multiple times a year.   working on your business. So we just created an announcement for our spring intensive, where we're gonna go deep into our clients' businesses. If you wanna be part of this, if you wanna sample this, you wanna experience some of this, then reach out to us. You're welcome to come hang out with us. We'd love for you to get a taste, but you show up, you get in the room with other owners that are actually doing the work and you leave with a plan, momentum, relationships.   that are going to change you. They're going to change how your business goes. And all of the cool stuff we've had, it's all there still. Like the weekly calls on the online community, our new DoorGrow Hub app, which is amazing. All the trainings inside of DoorGrow Academy, that's all there, but that's really exists to keep you executing between your trips to Austin, where we grow and help you figure out how to grow your business. And those things are support system, which is nice, but it's not the main event.   And so that's the big shift that we're doing in the mastermind.   people walk out of that room different. And people walk out of that room with connections and friendships that will just last. And it's because you're surrounding yourself with your people. When you find your people, there is something that you can just feel it. You can feel the energy in the room. There's something that ignites inside of you. I was sitting in that room, and this is not our first Russell event, but I was sitting in that room and I was going, man, these are my people.   This is like, this is where we need to be. Yeah. And talking to Benjamin Hardy and going, yeah, you're right. I have no idea why I'm thinking 10 million. You're right. 10 million is a stupid number. That's, that's like child's play. You're right. I should be going for a hundred million. I have no idea why I wasn't going for a hundred million, but now there's like a clear path and a clear, reason to do it. And   I would not have been thinking 100 million is a reasonable number for us if I didn't end up in that room with Benjamin Hardy. Yeah, let's go. Let's do it. Right. OK. I mean, the impact that we get that we can have by doing that will be awesome. And, you know, that was a big block for me. I realize I'm like, I don't care enough about the money.   but I care about impact and that gets me excited and money is your ability to create impact. That's how you have reach. So let me know if, listen to this and let us know, are you stuck in this cycle? Are you exhausted, overwhelmed, stuck as the bottleneck in your own business? Do you feel like you can't keep up? You no longer love or even like the business that you built.   Maybe you're spending too much time doing admin work, playing catch up while your competitors are signing the clients you should have. Have you promised your family next year will be different? Maybe we'll have that vacation, but nothing changes. Do you start projects with great intentions but struggle to follow through without accountability? Are you tired of trying to figure everything out alone, which as I say is the slowest path to growth? While your competitors seem to have all the support and figure it out, well, you're not alone.   That's what most property managers, they're saying things like, I want to grow, but I'm the bottleneck. Everything depends on me. I need to either sell the business or move on or make this sustainable. Finally, I want to add more doors, but I'm overwhelmed. They don't know where to start. If I don't solve this, I'll stay stuck and growth will stall or worse. I'll start losing doors and clients. And maybe you experienced that. So this is stuff that we tackle in our mastermind. So we'll help you get the business going. We'll help you get the business cleaned up. So   I want you to step into your future real quick and then we'll wrap up. Just imagine this picture yourself. You're walking into a room in Austin, Texas, full of other property management business owners. These aren't tire kickers or people collecting info. These are operators who got on a plane because they're serious about building something real. These aren't people going to a property management conference just to go to the bar and check out from their life, right? At the hotel.   These people got on a plane because they're serious. And you sit down at a table with owners, they manage maybe 50, 200, 500 plus doors, maybe someone a thousand, right? Someone shares how they added 30 doors last month, maybe using our Realtor intro engine, another owner walks you through how they restructured their pricing and add another 25K in their monthly revenue. A third pulls you aside at the evening mixer and says, I was exactly where you were eight months ago. Here's what changed everything for me. You can't.   get that on a Zoom call. You can't get that in a Facebook group. You can't get that through a video or training. That kind of moment changes everything. Michael Poon, he had that experience before he added 40 units in July. Last year, Ken Harmon had it when he went from zero to 105 doors in six months by putting in just one or two hours a day. This is what happens when you stop trying to figure everything out alone and you step into a room that makes it harder to play small like Sarah was talking about.   So now picture this, you're back at home, three days after our spring intensive, you're executing your 90 day plan with total clarity, your accountability partner texts you, hey, I just hit my goal for the week, how are you doing? You made that friend or that connection, and you realize you're not just building a business, you're building relationships that are gonna last for years, and these have to be built in person. So remember that feeling, because that future starts right now today when you decide.   to stop just watching from behind a screen and you come spend time with us and show up in person. All right, so if this is interesting, reach out to us. can check us out at doorgrow.com. Anything else you want to add? All right. It's coming up in May. It's coming up in May. coming up in May. So by the time this episode airs, unless you're watching it live, it...   But don't fret, we've got another one coming up in October. So this year we're doing two plus our DoorGor Live. So it'll be May in October plus DoorGor Live in October. Then next year we're gonna start vacating through. And we onboard new clients every month in person. You'll come hang out with us. right, so, all right, if you've ever felt stuck or stagnant, you wanna take your business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgor.com for free training on how to get unlimited leads for free. Text the word leads.   to 512-648-4608. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, ideas, and to learn about our offers and how we can help you, subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on wherever you found this.   We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

Today, Jason sat down with Caleb Christopher to break down how creative finance is actually being used in today's real estate market, especially for property managers looking to grow beyond traditional deals. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull and Caleb Christopher discuss strategies like subject-to deals, the due on sale clause, wraparound mortgages, and other creative transaction structures, along with how property managers can use these tools to acquire more doors, help investors expand their portfolios, and even build their own. You'll Learn [00:09] Introduction to Creative Finance in Real Estate [01:01] Caleb Christopher's Entrepreneurial Journey [04:39] Understanding Subject To Deals [10:10] Opportunities for Property Management Business Owners [11:45] Navigating Legal Counsel in Creative Finance [14:17] Understanding Wraparound Mortgages [19:45] Creative Financing Structures [22:27] The Role of Creative Transaction Consulting [27:06] Building Relationships in Property Management Quotables "If you have a business and you don't know what to do with those opportunities, other people do, and you can get paid a referral fee." "The due on sale clause is always going to be a stone hanging over your head. You can't get rid of it." "Your low-interest mortgage is an asset I'm willing to buy." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:01) Five, four, three, two, one. All right, welcome everybody. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness,   change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right, so in today's episode, I'm hanging out here with Caleb Christopher. Welcome, Caleb. And we're gonna be chatting about creative finance and what it really looks like in today's real estate market. And Caleb's gonna share practical insights from his time in the industry, breaking down strategies like Sub 2, Subject 2 Deals.   Caleb Christopher (00:46) All right, thank you.   Jason Hull (01:01) the due on sale clause, wrap around mortgages and other creative transaction structures to give a helpful real world perspective for anyone looking to get started in creative finance. for property managers, know creative finance is how you help your investors get into more units and they all want to manage more units. So cool. Welcome Caleb.   Caleb Christopher (01:24) Thank you. I live creative finance, so ask in any direction.   Jason Hull (01:26) So, yeah, it's your   thing. Yeah, yeah, you live it. It's your middle name, right? Yeah. So Caleb was showing me he has paint on his arm from right, like, I don't know where he, yeah, he's been doing some stuff. He's like legit into the work. He's got rental properties. So he's down in the, in the paint. So Caleb, give us a little bit of background on yourself.   Caleb Christopher (01:32) Yeah.   Yeah. I've got rental properties.   Jason Hull (01:51) at kind of your, how did you get into doing what you're doing now? What's sort of your entrepreneurial journey for the entrepreneurs listening?   Caleb Christopher (01:58) Yeah, so entrepreneurship has gone way back for me. What, I'm 38 now? I'm almost 39. 39 feels a lot closer to 40 than 38, by the way. ⁓ As an entrepreneur, I'm like, wait, that's like one of those. Anyway, so.   Jason Hull (02:06) Yeah, yeah.   It's a milestone, yeah.   I'm a decade older than you. was born in 77. So I'm feeling even older now. Keep going.   Caleb Christopher (02:18) Okay.   You look fantastic.   So entrepreneurship in fifth grade, I found these mechanical pencils that would come apart in the middle and they were different colors. And I bought them in bulk at Costco and resold them to my classmates in whatever color combinations they want. Mates started making money. I was like, this is kind of cool. And I like customizing stuff. So that was cool. And then a bunch of little stuff like that. And it ended up where I ran a paintball field out of my parents' house in the woods. I liked working. like work as my hobby.   Jason Hull (02:23) Thank   Yeah. Okay.   Yes.   Caleb Christopher (02:48) but also paintball. I've got a 12 year old, we're building a paintball course in my, at my house now, cause he's just starting to get into it. So, but I did that and I bought rental gear and I funded my paintball journeys by having other people rent from me. And so that was that. And then I got into IT and cybersecurity consulting. So entrepreneurship has been a thing where I'm just always adding value, always had a second job, some, some other gig where I like to help do creative problem solving.   Jason Hull (02:48) Yeah, fun.   Yeah, good time.   Nice.   Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (03:15) And then I discovered real estate when I couldn't sell my house. The one I'm in right now was right next door to family, which was great, but I couldn't sell the one I was in. And so I had to rent it out and I became an accidental landlord and refinanced the property. And then I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and I was like, thank God I have a rental property. And that was the beginning of the real estate journey.   Jason Hull (03:27) Yeah.   Right, right. And everybody, you have to read Rich Dad Poor Dad. I think it's a requirement. And then you want to get out of the rat race and yeah, yeah. We would play.   Caleb Christopher (03:41) Yeah.   Yeah. Start building wealth. Just   treat, treat houses like a retirement account. Slow building. Even if you don't do anything else, if you get a few rentals, you're in a pretty good shape.   Jason Hull (03:56) Yeah. Have you seen Robert Kiyosaki's game, the board game? Yeah, probably. Maybe it does all the math for you. ⁓ yeah. We did it the hard way and I would just make my wife do the math. I'm like, go ahead, Sarah. You do this. She's like, she likes it. She thinks that part's fun. Yeah. Right. That's why she's the COO and not me.   Caleb Christopher (03:59) Yeah. It's easier to play online than it is the board game.   It does. Then you don't have all the little cards handing back and forth. So yeah, I highly recommend just running a private game on a computer.   Okay, what a blessing.   Jason Hull (04:25) All right, so cool. Well, let's get into this. Let's get in this topic. So tell us about the first thing mentioned in the intro was like the subject two deals, like this strategy.   Caleb Christopher (04:39) Yes, so sub 2 is when you take a property subject to something else. It could be a federal IRS lien. It could be the person's mortgage. It's always, by the way, everybody does sub 2 deals and they just haven't thought of it this way. When a utility company comes to dig up a chunk of your yard and you can't say something about it, that's because you bought it subject to easements, rights of way, etc. So...   Jason Hull (04:52) Okay.   Yeah, easements.   Caleb Christopher (05:04) There are external things that can act upon you or your property because you bought the property subject to them. What we do in subject to deals is we add the loan to the list of things taken subject to. So if the mortgage company notices that you sold a house to me without paying off the mortgage, right? The deed transfers to me and I'm making your payments now. That's a sub two. ⁓ if they notice and if they care, they can accelerate that loan because of the due on sale clause. So kind of two birds with one stone with this description. It exists in every.   Jason Hull (05:24) Yeah.   Yeah, doesn't that void most loans or?   Caleb Christopher (05:34) loan I've ever seen. Maybe not in a seller finance loan if you explicitly exclude it. It's not required, but a due on sale is a good protection for a lender to have because if you transfer and if they care, they can accelerate. It doesn't require them to. They can.   Jason Hull (05:36) Right.   but they can and   some terms in loans I believe also if you if it switches ownership, they it says it maybe negates the terms of the agreement or.   Caleb Christopher (05:59) Nope, it doesn't cancel anything else. it's, and a lot of people are like, is sub two illegal? No, it's not illegal. Here's when it is illegal. If I'm borrowing with the intent to hand it to somebody else, the deed, it was never my intention to occupy the property or to satisfy the requirements. And I'm misrepresenting or providing materially false information. That's fraud and that's illegal. However,   Jason Hull (06:04) Thank   Okay.   Okay.   Caleb Christopher (06:24) If I buy the house and I move into it as my primary residence or whatever the occupancy requirements are, and then I decide later on to sell it subject to the mortgage, I can do that. And that's a violation, a civil violation of the mortgage contract, which says if you transfer without paying us off or without our permission, we can accelerate the loan. But it's a defined default and a defined remedy.   Jason Hull (06:42) I see.   So I had a client and what he was doing is he was helping facilitate deals and his way of kind of getting around stuff was he would set up a trust. He would place the business, the current owner of the property as, you know, as one of the members of that trust. So they still had that person in place. They would just decrease their ownership stake through the trust, right? So.   Caleb Christopher (07:07) Still technically a violation of the due on sale clause. Some people think Garn St. Germain Act protects an investor like all trust acquisitions from a due on sale, which is not true. By the way, a little more background. I'm very technical. read laws and rules and court cases. so if anybody's got a, I'm giving you a real technical answer here, not an attorney though. The Garn St. Germain Act protects family transfers, but not an investor purchase, even if you leave the seller as a partial owner. Technically it's still a violation.   Jason Hull (07:16) Yeah. Yeah.   I love it.   Mm-hmm.   Got it.   Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (07:36) but it's less likely they'll notice.   Jason Hull (07:38) I see the sub two guys, Pace Morby or whatever his name is. And I just see a lot of people saying, this is illegal or you can't do this. And people come after him all the time. And I don't know. I don't know what. I'm not as technical maybe as you. So I don't know. What's your take on that?   Caleb Christopher (07:54) It's absolutely not illegal. It's illegal to misrepresent something at any time, but there's no duty or compunction in the contract for me to notify you as my lender that I've transferred the property. Even if there was, that would just be another violation of the mortgage contract and not something criminal.   Jason Hull (08:05) Got it.   Got it, okay, right. You're not going to jail over it, but okay. So if you're doing the subject two or if like some of the property management business owners listening are wanting to maybe take over the ownership of some of the rental properties that they're.   Caleb Christopher (08:23) Yeah, dude.   Can I say that is, think, the number one opportunity for a property management company owner is you can either do acquisitions for yourself by taking over tired landlords' properties. My goodness. Hey, are you tired of this property? I'll take the deed. I'll pay you X cash and I'll just take over the payments. Huge opportunity. Also playing middleman, if you know sub 2 investors. If you've got tired landlords, you have an opportunity.   Jason Hull (08:30) Yes.   Hmm.   Caleb Christopher (08:51) You can be the buyer or you can be the middleman who finds the buyers who are willing to take those over. And if it's older debt with a lower interest rate, I'm telling you, I will pay more for that property than I will for to get a new, the same property with a new loan.   Jason Hull (08:56) Right.   Yes, yeah. So, I mean, really, the smartest thing a property management business owner can do is build up their own portfolio, right. And rather than just helping everybody else build up theirs. And we've got a client and he I think he has like he has two, three hundred doors in his business. He owns all of them. He basically just uses his property management business as a honeypot. People come to him, say, hey, I need management. And then he he said, well, let's take a look at your property situation.   And then he's like, yeah, well, if you sell this, you're going to have all these taxes and all these issues. And man, if only there was a way you could still get paid on this, but avoid that. And then he convinces them to do seller financing without telling him it's seller financing, sort of. Right. And so then he like just takes over the ownership and he keeps paying them to pay them off. And so he's got this really sizable portfolio. And during the, when the   Caleb Christopher (09:37) Hmm.   Jason Hull (09:56) If the market shifts a certain way, he's taking on millions of dollars in assets pretty easily, you know, having these conversations. And so, yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity for property management business owners to be paying attention to this. Is there anything else you would want to say about subject two that maybe they should be aware of or?   Caleb Christopher (10:10) Yes.   I mean, there's plenty of discussions to be had when you get down into the details. Knowing what it is is the first stage. I would just remind back on this last point, if you have a business and you don't know what to do with those opportunities, other people do and you can get paid a referral fee. So don't sit on the fact that you've got tired landlords. Send out a survey and like, if somebody came to you with an offer today, would you sell?   Jason Hull (10:17) .   Right. Yeah. And the thing is, as a property manager, they have this, they have several advantages, but one, they know the market, they know which properties would cashflow the best, they know what they could rent for. They're connected to real world reality, unlike a lot of real estate agents in the market when it comes to rentals. And they have a large portfolio of owners. So if one owner is like, want to sell, they've got a whole bunch of others. They could say, Hey, do you want this? So they could do that middleman thing that you were talking about.   Okay. Love it. think it's, it's just smart. And, it sounds like the biggest challenge would be the, the sound like the, sounds like the most difficult piece of this would be, how do I get really solid legal counsel for making sure that this is done or structured the right way? Or we keep the loan intact.   Caleb Christopher (11:06) That's it. We're done with the episode. That's the main point.   Excellent.   Yeah. So one thing, the due on sale clause is always going to be a stone hanging over your head. You can't get rid of it. And if you can't take that heat, you got to stay out of the kitchen, basically. That said, I have resolved due on sale on consumer loans, not DSCR. I've resolved due on sale with consumer slash investment property loans for the individual buyer borrower. But where was I going with that?   Jason Hull (11:30) Yeah.   How did you solve   this? Is this like a trade secret or can you share with the audience?   Caleb Christopher (11:48) Nah,   so the broad strokes are pretty obvious. It's the details that kill you. it's basically, if I bought your house subject to, and they accelerate the loan, then I'm going to try to call them and negotiate them away off the cliff, right? Like, hey, I'm making the payments. What's really the problem? Can I assume this? What options do we have? If they're inflexible, the bigger banks, then I'm going to have to go with technical compliance, which is I'm going to deed the property back to you.   Jason Hull (11:54) Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (12:15) And then we just get into this whole thing like, yeah, but what if I deed it to you and you don't sign the next document back to me to let me continue like a master lease where I keep all the profits or whatever we want to call it. Ideally, we just restructure the transaction with paperwork that's either less visible or completely acceptable to the lender.   Jason Hull (12:31) Got it. So this is just a conversation with the lender, basically, hey, this is what's happening. How do we make this work? So everybody's happy.   Caleb Christopher (12:37) and the bigger banks will not tell you how   to make it work. They'll just require you to show evidence that ID to the property back to you. But that's only one part of the puzzle, because we still need to restructure the transaction internally.   Jason Hull (12:44) I see. Okay.   Right. So then it's between you and the homeowner. Yeah. Got it. And there's just making a a deal where they're making your there's money being exchanged, even though the legal technical ownership hasn't really shifted.   Caleb Christopher (13:04) Right. There's a paperwork dance around any obstacle. Now you asked about legal counsel. Lawyers are good at saying no. I'm not going to discourage. Here's my law degree right here. I don't have one. So yes, I'm never going to discourage somebody from getting an attorney involved. My concern is a lot of times they don't have the direct experience on these types of deals. And when they see risk, they say no. ⁓   Jason Hull (13:10) Right. That's their default. Right. It looks just like mine.   Yeah.   Yeah.   That's the safest   thing for them to do.   Caleb Christopher (13:30) That's right. And when I go to an attorney, I'm like, I'm not, I'm paying you to tell me how not tell me no.   Jason Hull (13:37) Right. The pre-frame with attorneys is everything. I say the similar thing. You don't go to the attorney and say, hey, how can I get out of this horrible contract with this franchise I'm in, for example? It's this is what I want to do. What's the best way to do this? I'm going to do it. Yeah. So you give them the right pre-frame.   Caleb Christopher (13:49) Figure out how. Well, you can't because there's this risk.   And I'm like, yeah, there is risk. I need to accept a few risks here because let's be outcomes oriented. And if you can coach an attorney to be outcomes oriented before you start spending a bunch of money on them, then great. That said, I've had a hard enough time finding that in every state. that's why entrepreneurial, I started Creative TC, which is transaction consulting, because I've been there and I've done that with dozens of deals per month for the last four years next.   Jason Hull (13:59) Yes.   Yes.   Caleb Christopher (14:17) in a couple of weeks here. we've touched literally thousands of these deals. We've seen them up, down, left, right, sideways and back.   Jason Hull (14:18) Got it.   Yeah, so the short answer is call Caleb. Yeah, okay, cool. So the next thing is like, we talked about the do on sale clause a bit. I don't know if there's anything else to mention on that. And then we can go into wraparound mortgages.   Caleb Christopher (14:27) Yeah.   Yeah, I love it.   Jason Hull (14:40) I'm not familiar with wraparound mortgages.   Caleb Christopher (14:42) Okay, it's like you ever go to Chipotle and they make that big fat burrito? What if they put a second tortilla around it?   Jason Hull (14:47) yeah.   then it's way less likely to break open.   Caleb Christopher (14:53) Very good. Very good. I think there's a lot of good analogies here with wraparound mortgages. So mortgage is a contract that says, by the way, a lot of people get this backwards, a mortgage, you give the bank a mortgage, they gave you a loan. It's not the other way around. So when you give the bank a mortgage, you're saying, hey, in exchange for this $500,000, you can foreclose if I don't pay it. That's the mortgage. It gives them the right to foreclose. We want to do that to be ethical.   If I bought your house subject to the existing mortgage, ideally we would do something called a mirror wrap. Now, if you had equity and you wanted to finance me a larger dollar amount than what you owe, can change that. But a mirror wrap says, hey, here's the existing loan. We're putting another one around it. That way you can foreclose on me for non-payment, just like the bank can foreclose on you. So if I don't make your payments, you can still pay your payments so that your loan is in good standing and they can't foreclose on you. But   Jason Hull (15:33) Thank   Caleb Christopher (15:47) when I'm not making payments, you can foreclose on me. So a mortgage basically just says, you have the right to foreclose on somebody for violating the terms of the mortgage.   Jason Hull (15:58) Yeah, okay, clever.   Caleb Christopher (15:59) as opposed   to a naked sub 2. Like if I just took the deed and said, I'll make your payments. Cool, but yeah, yeah. It's like, but wouldn't you like the ability to foreclose if I don't? That's a wraparound mortgage.   Jason Hull (16:04) Yeah, cool. If I really trust you, but trust the verify, right? So.   Right, yeah, like worst case scenario,   it's like, you know, just like getting into a relationship pre-nup, post-nup, like making sure there's, like if things go bad, which nobody plans on, it's not gonna be as bad. Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (16:25) Right. It's a stop   loss, right? It will cost you money to foreclose on me, but your credit's on the line, so you can still protect it to some degree.   Jason Hull (16:34) Okay, yeah, cool. I like it. And I would imagine the owners like this too. Everybody likes this. This makes everybody feel safer.   Caleb Christopher (16:42) Yes, so that's one aspect is it's the safe legal ethical way to do it. The other piece is that you can use if I've got a 4 % interest mortgage. Actually, I've got one that's a 3.625 a sub 2 in Colorado. If I sold this to a new buyer right now on seller finance, I would give them a wraparound mortgage. But what would I be doing? Would I pass that 3.625 to them?   Jason Hull (16:46) huh.   Mm-hmm.   Well, no, you get a cut, right? Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (17:07) I would rather mark it up to 8 %   or seven or so, whatever's practical today. So I can keep the difference. can arbitrage the interest rate. So wraparound mortgages work not only for the ability to foreclose on a non-payer, but you can also increase either the total amount financed or the rate or both. And so wraparound mortgages can be used to transfer as a profit mechanism as well. And when you own the house that I sold you, I don't have to fix your toilet. You just have to pay me every month.   Jason Hull (17:36) Right, so in the case of the audience here, like property management business owner, they don't want to, like they could take over the property themselves, but they could also facilitate the deal and for the new owner, it's a higher percentage and they're just keeping the difference.   Caleb Christopher (17:41) Mm-hmm.   Sometimes you've got a tenant who has lived in a property for five years and they're a great tenant. You like, you want to help them out, but they can't seem to get a loan. It's like, all right, well, I'll let you make payments on this one. I don't like rent to own. Not the same because that's up your, you're conveying interest to them monthly. It's a convoluted mess. I would rather do a straight seller finance like this, where we do a wraparound mortgage and I'll bump the rate and you're going to pay me a premium, but you're going to get ownership.   Jason Hull (18:04) Yes.   Yeah, got it. Okay. Yeah, that's a healthier, safer way.   Caleb Christopher (18:20) And now I don't have to replace light   bulbs or fix toilets or repair the roof or whatever else goes on the plate.   Jason Hull (18:27) Unless you're the manager and you get paid to do that.   Caleb Christopher (18:30) What? It moves out of property management at that point if it becomes a seller finance. Yeah, they're the owner now.   Jason Hull (18:33) because somebody's buying it. They're not renting.   Got it. Yeah. OK, cool. Yeah, I like this idea, the wraparound mortgage. OK. Are there other types of wraparound mortgages? Is that the main thing?   Caleb Christopher (18:45) Now they're specific to your situation like what's best for you and what state you're in etc. I just had a conversation with somebody who used up all their available cash to get rent properties. Right, so they got three or four rentals, but they've got no cash left and they've got good interest rates and I said you could sell those on wraps and increase your cash flow every month and get a down payment from somebody and she was like what?   Jason Hull (18:48) Yeah.   ⁓   Caleb Christopher (19:12) I said, you want capital to do the next deal, right? Yeah. Okay.   Jason Hull (19:12) yeah. Right, so yeah, because that low interest rate is an advantage. So it's kind of sellable.   Caleb Christopher (19:20) It is and you can make a monthly bump.   Yes, it is your low interest loan. By the way, I just say this to people. Your low interest mortgage is an asset I'm willing to buy. The same house is worth more money to me with a low interest rate than I'll buy sub two. Then it is just on the market on average.   Jason Hull (19:29) No.   Okay.   Yeah, that's clever. Yeah, okay. Got it. Very cool. All right, so other creative structures.   any others.   Caleb Christopher (19:46) Yeah, so contract for deed or land contract, it's a seller, it's a type of seller finance. If I'm the seller, I like it because I hold legal title. And if I hold legal title, you can't place additional liens. Yeah, so I don't want you placing solar liens without my permission or water softener liens or a HELOC on top of whatever current balance is. So if I, if I sell to you on a wraparound mortgage, you have the full deed, legal title and everything.   Jason Hull (19:53) Okay.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (20:15) and you can place additional liens. You can use this property as security for other loans. I really don't want that complication in case I do have to foreclose and maybe take the property back if I bid what's owed. I don't want it coming back to me with an extra three liens or $40,000 worth of debt. So contract for deed is pretty ideal because I hold legal title, you get equitable title. And it's same seller finance term, same wraparound concept like markup interest rate and monthly payments and stuff.   Jason Hull (20:41) Got it, okay, very cool. These are fun little vehicles. There's like these magic little tool sets that you've got in your toolbox. Any others?   Caleb Christopher (20:48) I I like the master lease concept where it's like a sub 2, right? I'll make sure all your bills get paid, but I keep everything that comes back on top. I take it off your plate. I agree formally to cover any expenses related to the property, et cetera, but we're going to do it like a master lease with an option to purchase.   Jason Hull (20:59) Okay.   Thank   Caleb Christopher (21:10) If you're scared of due on sale, or if you've got a DSCR loan that will not tolerate a contract for deed or a trust acquisition or a full on sub two, we can do this custom master lease, which replicates all the parts and pieces effectively without violating that due on sale clause.   Jason Hull (21:28) Okay. And I know property managers sometimes are talking about things like, know, they want to get their investors into more property, right? So they're talking about things like maybe doing a 1031 exchange to get into a bigger property maybe, or doing cash out refinance to pull equity out to get into a next unit or next property. You know, these type of vehicles. But these additional tools you...   Caleb Christopher (21:35) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (21:54) chat about today I think are very fascinating. I don't think a lot of them I haven't heard them talk about.   Caleb Christopher (21:58) Yeah,   mean, awareness is the big thing, right? You need to be aware that you can do some of these things, and then you find the person who can help structure it specifically for your scenario. But I see a lot of people who are like, I'm going to do a creative deal. And it's like, on what, though?   Jason Hull (22:12) Yeah.   Got it. Okay. So, I don't know if there's anything else we're missing or that you wanted to cover, but I think then the next question would be how, where do you fit into this? Cause you have a business that facilitates this or helps with this.   Caleb Christopher (22:27) Yeah. So I started Creative TC four years ago and this creative transaction consulting so that we could help make these deals safe, legal and ethical. You can imagine that it's pretty easy to do somebody dirty, whether you mean to or not, with these arrangements when somebody's credits on the line, they're convoluted. And so you need a guiding light. You need somebody to hold your hand, maybe be a lighthouse so you don't crash on the rocks. That's what Creative TC is. And so we consult on these deals nationwide to help people do them safely.   Jason Hull (22:35) Okay.   yeah.   Okay.   Caleb Christopher (22:56) And then I started Creative Title this last year to fill a void in the state of Colorado where a bunch of companies were pulling out of creative deals.   Jason Hull (23:04) Yeah, got it. So yeah, I get it. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of times it's not even the, it's, everybody has good intentions, maybe from the very beginning. But when, as soon as something gets weird or sticky or confusing or challenging, then somebody's like, feels like somebody else is being unethical or do them dirty or whatever, or we don't have a, we don't have an exit path or we don't have a clear delineation of, you know, that makes everybody feel comfortable where we can split ways or part ways. so.   Caleb Christopher (23:12) Yeah.   Money's on the line.   Jason Hull (23:32) Yeah, having something structured right from the beginning, they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care, right? And a lot of times I, when talking with my clients, because, know, in property management, have lease contracts, lease agreements, have the agreements or contracts they have with the owners for taking over the management of the property. And I, what I usually say to them is those are nice, but those usually only matter if you use them incorrectly. They only matter when you're at war.   Caleb Christopher (23:35) yeah. Yep. 100%.   Yes. ⁓   Jason Hull (24:03) It only matter when you're there.   So, but if you proactively review the agreements with them and go through it with them and help them understand it, it's then an onboarding tool and it helps set the frame of the relationship and it helps everybody understand. And because it doesn't matter what's written in agreement until you're at war. But before then, what matters is what they think is written in that agreement. And so making sure that you go over things with them to make sure they understand this is paramount. And that like makes like,   Caleb Christopher (24:13) Yes.   I need, I need this as   a sound clip for my team because this is how I train my team as well. I just need it from somebody else because it sounds better coming from not me. ⁓ it's expectations management is absolutely essential, especially in creative finance deals where I'm making your payments, your credits on the line. If I don't make your payments, it hurts your credit score and can cause a foreclosure. The buyer and seller need to have that conversation. And sometimes it requires a third party to help facilitate. Hey, here's what happens.   Jason Hull (24:32) in a relationship.   Right, so you can use that.   Yeah.   Caleb Christopher (24:59) Here's how to manage those expectations. Let's look at this. We're not just signing disclosures just because they're legally required or suggested, but we want to have a meaningful conversation and talk through the stuff so that everybody's on the same page because if the due on sale clause comes knocking, we need to be on the same team.   Jason Hull (25:14) Yeah, yeah. So my wife and I got married in Mexico because that's we wanted to get married there. And usually what people will do is they'll just do it legally in the US, but they'll do it symbolically in Mexico. And Sarah's like, no, let's let's do both there. Let's do it. And they make you list out your assets. It's almost like they're like proactively making everyone have a prenup, right? Now we already had a prenup. And then our lawyer was like, you also need to have a postnup. So we did that. And it's just like we know, like if   Caleb Christopher (25:34) Okay.   Jason Hull (25:42) for some reason there was a problem, like things went south, then it's not gonna be all out war, right? It's clear, you own this, I own this, this is how it works, this is how we part ways, here's how we split the business. And so everything, and this is what smart business owners do with their business when they get into business partnerships. And so without that,   And I think with your team, for example, the analogy that everybody understands is divorce, because 50 % of relationships in the US probably end that way. Everybody's been like maybe their parents or they've seen a family member or they've seen somebody go through this. And that's the epitome of not having a really solid planned out strategy from the beginning, because nobody was planning on this happening. But, know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure if you have that dialed in, they're not spending.   Caleb Christopher (26:10) Hmm.   Jason Hull (26:26) $20,000 in legal fees where only the attorneys are winning and you know, and then you're losing a bunch of stuff and this was yours and they didn't contribute to this, but now you have to give them half and all this kind of stuff. so, yeah, and so you help them kind of make both parties and everybody involved feel comfortable and then you get paid a consulting fee for doing handling this. Cool, very cool.   Cool, so I would imagine there might be some property managers listening to this. Any final words you'd like to say to them and how can they get in touch with you if they would like to help you facilitate some of stuff they're working on?   Caleb Christopher (27:06) I think the value of a property manager or a realtor is very much in who they know that's vetted. Okay. A realtor, it's like, I know a foundation guy. I know a roof guy. I know a flooring guy, right? That's what I'm paying you for. Not just your commission to take photos and have some conversations. I want to know who knows who you know, you can validate. The same thing is true for property managers. I got a repair guy, very consistent. I've got three different plumbers. If it's this type, I know this guy's got the best rates. That's what I want you to know.   when you're my property manager, that's what I'm paying you for. The same thing is true now with Creative Finance. It's like, hey, I know a guy that's an expert that has 255 star reviews at what they do. They only do this thing and they do it really well. So if you want to buy or sell Creative Finance, let me call Caleb. I'm that guy.   Jason Hull (27:53) Yeah, mean, a lot of the best property management business owners are viewed by their clients as an investment expert or advisor. And the best investment people or advisors have a whole toolset of people in their back pocket, whether it's trust attorneys or somebody like Caleb, right? They have all these different resources, maybe lenders, you know.   They have all these different resources available to facilitate deals. And that's how some property managers are able to help their clients get into more property and have more deals to manage. Or like we talked about at the outset, even better, how to get more ownership stake over all the properties that you're managing and build up your own portfolio and your own wealth.   Caleb Christopher (28:37) Yeah, because I should be able to call my property manager and say, who's good at DSCRE finances in your area? Who do you like? I don't know. Okay. Maybe be a little more helpful.   Jason Hull (28:44) Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, got it. All right. Awesome. Well, Caleb, I appreciate you coming here on the door grow show. How can people get in touch with you?   Caleb Christopher (28:57) right. The easiest way, because I own multiple companies, calebchristopher.io. That's got links to Creative TC for the consulting, Dosgard to fix due on sale, and Creative Title Company in Colorado and Tennessee.   Jason Hull (29:09) Perfect, awesome. Hey, thanks for being on the DoorGrow show. All right, for those watching this, if you're listening, if you've ever felt stuck or stagnant and you wanna take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com for free training on how to get unlimited free leads. Text the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners by going to doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, ideas,   Caleb Christopher (29:12) It's been a pleasure.   Jason Hull (29:37) to learn about our offers at DoorGrow. Subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on whatever channel you found this on. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.