Script Your Future

IntroductionIn this episode of Script Your Future, host Sonja Pagniano interviews Natalie Novak, PharmD, a clinical pharmacist at Bryant Family Pharmacy who earned her doctorate at Mercer University in May 2024 and relocated from Georgia to Arkansas for a community pharmacy residency. Natalie shares how growing up on a 3,000-acre ranch in rural Northern Colorado shaped her work ethic and sparked an early interest in medications, leading her to pharmacy after working as a technician in a small-town chain. She explains why she chose independent pharmacy and a community residency for hands-on service development, teaching, and research—especially leveraging Arkansas’s broader pharmacist prescribing protocols. Natalie discusses NCPA Foundation support, including the Ownership Workshop Scholarship and the Neil Pruitt Senior Memorial Scholarship, how business-plan and ownership training shaped her view of entrepreneurship, and how networking through NCPA influenced her career. She highlights patient impact through naloxone access, medication packaging support, and her focus on rural pharmacy as an accessible healthcare hub, and encourages students to stay open-minded, get involved early, and pursue community practice without bias.InterviewSonja: Welcome to a new episode of Script Your Future podcast. Today we have Natalie Novak, clinical Pharmacist at Bryant Family Pharmacy. Natalie grew up on a ranch in the mountains of Northern Colorado and she earned her doctorate of pharmacy from Mercer University in Atlanta, Georgia, in May 2024, before she relocated to Arkansas to complete her residency at Bryant Family Pharmacy, which I think she recently completed. We’re very excited to hear more about that in a minute. She’s a pharmacist who is dedicated to enhancing patient care and advocating for the profession, while inspiring future pharmacists to do the same. We’re so excited to have her on the podcast. Welcome, Natalie.Natalie: Awesome. Thank you so much, Sonja. I’m excited to be here.Sonja: Awesome. Tell us what initially drew you to the residency at Bryant Pharmacy.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. I think during pharmacy school, through my involvement with NCPA, I truly developed this deep love for independent pharmacy. I was learning about all these unique and innovative things that were happening in the world of independent pharmacy, and I really wanted a good hands-on experience at what that looks like and what’s possible out there.I decided I wanted to do residency in order to get a better background with some teaching experience and research and really get an opportunity to kind of try and implement some services and really get that hands-on experience. I was drawn to specifically the state of Arkansas, one to get a little bit closer to family, but also, I was drawn to Arkansas’s wider scope of practice. So, coming from Georgia to Arkansas, we have quite a few statewide protocols here in the state of Arkansas that really opened the doors for pharmacist prescribing. I was really excited for that and the opportunity to take those and make them into projects for myself during residency year.Sonja: Pharmacist prescribing is huge. I know that’s like a big topic even this year of more and more states maybe looking to expand that or get it started. Tell us a little bit about that journey you took from your family’s ranch back in Colorado all the way to now practicing as a pharmacist in Arkansas…What was it like growing up on a ranch out there in northern Colorado? How did maybe some of those experiences shape your values and your work ethic, and what sparked that interest in pharmacy?Natalie: I got that hometown ski town experience, but also, we had a 3,000-acre family ranch about 30 minutes outside of town. I really got that experience of what it’s like to live in a rural community, which is really where my roots are. Even though I don’t consider where I live right now rural, I think, especially after you’ve grown up there…I’m still feeling very passionate about those people that live in rural communities and giving them access to care. So, grew up raising livestock and in 4-H and FFA, showing horses, developed a really strong love for leadership. Kind of translated into pharmacy school, leading our NCPA chapter as well.Really fell in love with the work ethic that it takes to raise animals out on a ranch. I mean, day in, day out, just because it’s raining outside, they still need to be fed. So I think that hard work and discipline, perseverance, are some lessons that I learned growing up in that kind of environment. The closest pharmacy to my hometown was 30 minutes away. The closest grocery store, the closest mall was two hours away. So I really grew up feeling that rural community. And so learned a lot through that journey. My journey to pharmacy school really started with animals. I fell in love with raising horses and market lambs and all that fun stuff. And yeah, in the 4-H project you learn a lot about the anatomy of a horse. And my horses were on a lot of medications, so I learned all about the medicine.Sonja: You probably learned all kinds of things about veterinary care related to that.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. And my mom would get this giant stock bottle of ranitidine and we would crush it with a pill grinder — a coffee grinder in our garage — like we were compounding before I even knew what that was. So I always was interested in some kind of science. I knew I wanted to be in a science field some way, shape or form. That’s kind of how it started. I think I realized maybe the emotional side of animals, the emotional attachment would’ve been a little hard for me. So I was like, well, maybe I could be a people doctor. Like, let’s look into medicine.So when I entered undergrad, I went to West Texas A&M University, outside of Amarillo, Texas. Went there to ride horses. But I also really enjoyed the college down there. Just kind of majored in a general major, aiming to go to some sort of professional school. I wasn’t sure exactly what that would look like. And then I was looking like, you know, if I wanted to go to med school, I need this hands-on patient care experience. None of that really appealed to me. So I ended up getting a job at a retail chain pharmacy in my college hometown as a pharmacy technician. And that really opened my eyes to what pharmacists can do. Especially, my college town was pretty rural too. So I was able to really see that small town pharmacy vibe, even though it was a chain — got to learn the ins and outs of what pharmacy looks like, what pharmacists do.And I just kind of fell in love with it and thought, you know, this is something that I could do for the rest of my life. So that’s how I found pharmacy.Sonja: Wow, that’s so cool. So it really was quite the journey from crushing pills for your horse’s medicine to getting that first job in pharmacy to really open your eyes to the profession itself.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely.Sonja: Why independent community pharmacy specifically as opposed to like a chain or hospital pharmacy? What ended up getting you to that? Is it those local rural roots you had and wanting to make sure you’re as close to community as possible? Or was there something else?Natalie: Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. When I went into pharmacy school, I really didn’t know which path I was gonna take. I went in with a very open mind, joined a lot of different organizations, really ended up resonating with NCPA and finding myself in a position of leadership within that organization at our local chapter. And from there I just kind of took that and ran with it.I think independent pharmacy, there’s so much flexibility to try new things. The pharmacy I currently work at is such a high volume — a uniquely high volume independent. We have a huge patient population, so I have the ability to kind of test and try out different things without that overhead of a corporation. And also the small town feel — I know all of my patients by name for the most part. So I think independents are just really uniquely positioned in the field to do innovative things and really test the waters and advance the profession.Sonja: Absolutely. So when you were first kind of choosing that professional school, why did you end up choosing Mercer?Natalie: So, tale as old as time. I met my husband in undergrad. He ended up getting a job out in Georgia right out of school. And so I followed him to Georgia. Was looking for pharmacy schools out there, applied to a few different schools. I ultimately chose Mercer just because I really love the smaller feel of the campus. Smaller private school — wasn’t as big as these huge campuses that I was touring. So, really loved that. And then everyone was so personable, and I felt like there were a lot of opportunities for growth for me, with rotation sites in the area. I also loved that Georgia has a really strong state association as well. The ability to get involved in lots of different great practice sites in the Atlanta area. So it was just a good fit all around for me.Sonja: I’ve definitely heard a lot of good things. I know they have a lot of opportunities for pharmacy students to kind of get their feet wet with the different aspects, not just of independent community pharmacy, but also other aspects of the profession too.Natalie: Absolutely.Sonja: So I know some people are really hooked on hospital experience for clinical. Can you talk a little bit more about why choosing a community pharmacy residency might be better than a hospital experience?Natalie: Absolutely. I think I knew from my first rotation at a hospital — in my first inpatient APPE rotation — I knew a hospital wasn’t really for me. I really loved the deeper thinking and how pharmacists were really involved in the care team from the clinical aspect. I think the environment wasn’t it for me. I loved the longitudinal relationships with our patients that we get to build in the community setting. Utmost respect for all of our hospital pharmacists. I think as far as residency goes, a lot of people don’t know that community pharmacy residencies are even possible. They don’t talk about them a lot in pharmacy school. But I say to all my students that are looking to further their education but not necessarily in a hospital setting that a community residency is a really good option…’cause I was able to get that teaching and that research experience, but also that experience in a community pharmacy setting. And there’s a wide variety of sites, you know, from chain pharmacies to independents to outpatient community pharmacies. Just a really great way to expand your knowledge and skillset, if the hospital may not be for you.Sonja: So that’s really helpful context. Thank you. So you ended up at Bryant Pharmacy? And you talked a little bit about kind of like why you really like the residency program there. Can you touch more on how you chose that specific pharmacy?Natalie: Yeah, so during my fourth year I was researching residency sites, probably early on in my fourth year. I had a few criteria I was looking for in a site. I wanted them to be an independent pharmacy — that was obvious for me. I wanted them to be a member of the local or the state CPSN chapter. So Bryant Family Pharmacy is an Arkansas CPESN pharmacy. So I love that. And then I think during the interview process, what really drew me here is the flexibility for trial and error. The owner and site coordinator of our pharmacy pretty much lets the resident take their passion project and implement it. He’ll provide the resources for it. Whatever you wanna do, let’s try it. If it fails, you know, that’s okay. Let’s assess why that failure happened and maybe try again, or pick something different, go down a different route. In my case, I was lucky that what I wanted to implement was very successful and I just took it and ran with it and explored different ways to take that appointment-based model and really expand it further.So I just really enjoyed — especially since we’re a high-volume store so there’s a lot of opportunity for the resident to get involved in all aspects of workflow. But also we’re very separated from workflow too, where I can spend time in the office developing ideas and services and things like that. The resident is only checking prescriptions on the bench one day a week, and the rest of the time is completely dedicated to service development and teaching.Sonja: That’s incredible. I love that. What an awesome experience for you and how awesome for Bryant to put that together for students, especially when you’re trying to innovate and implement all of these cool things you’re learning. That’s such a good experience to be able to actually do it.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. It’s very cool.Sonja: So you received the NCPA Pharmacist Mutual Ownership Workshop Scholarship from the Foundation back in 2023, and you were able to attend the workshop. I’m very curious — what did it mean to you to have a program like that be more accessible at that time, and what were maybe some of your expectations going into it versus what you ended up actually experiencing?Natalie: Yeah, that was such a great experience for me as a student. I was able to attend the workshop in Charlotte, pretty close to pharmacy school for me, and I just think it’s an invaluable resource for students. I was so grateful to have the opportunity to go and do that. Especially to just kind of get your feet wet in the field of ownership….’cause I feel like as a student, ownership seems like this milestone that’s almost impossible to reach. And it just seems like something that’s so far out of reach you don’t even know where to start. So I was really excited to be able to go. I was working on our business plan for our NCPA chapter at the time as well, and so I was excited to go and just gain more knowledge.Both to help with the business plan, but also to look at — okay, do I wanna be an owner in the future? Is this something I’m interested in? If it is, I’m a lifelong learner, I just wanna absorb as much information as possible. So I really had no idea what to expect going into the ownership workshop.I was nervous, of course, because you’re in this room full of people that are current owners, but also aspiring owners that have been pharmacists way longer. I mean, I hadn’t even been a pharmacist at that point. So, I think the experience itself — I was just overwhelmed with information, I think in a good way. It was so comprehensive. Just walked through all the elements of ownership and things that I mean I had never even thought about when it comes to site selection for a pharmacy or financials or any of the legal elements. There’s so much of the background that goes into it that you don’t learn in pharmacy school.Sonja: So that experience was just incredible for me. No, and I hear that a lot. It’s like the whole drinking from the fire hose analogy. So much. And that’s why some people go and they do it multiple times — ‘cause they say every time they get something different out of it, and every time they’re at a different phase of that journey towards owning a pharmacy. Do you remember some of the sessions you had? What was maybe the most valuable session from that at the time that you experienced it? Maybe a memorable speaker that you could share with our audience?Natalie: I loved Gabe Trahans’s talk — I’m not sure if I said his last name right — on the over-the-counter and the front end section of the pharmacy. That was an area I hadn’t had much experience in, but had a lot of emphasis in pharmacy school on over-the-counters. Was excited to learn more about the merchandising side of that, ‘cause I had no experience in marketing, sales, anything like that. I think marketing presentations were also really valuable. And then the legal, the law — there’s just so much that goes into it. I was mind blown at all the things you need to think about when owning a business.Sonja: So did you make any connections there that you’ve still maintained since?Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. I think most of my connections that I’ve maintained have been with other students from other NCPA chapters. So there were some students from the University of Georgia that were there. We built really great relationships with them. Other leaders in pharmacy practice like Jonathan Mark West and people like that, that kind of served as mentors to me throughout my years in pharmacy school. Got to see them at the conference or at the ownership workshop and really reinforce those relationships, and we’re still in contact today.Sonja: Excellent. That’s really great to hear. So have you applied what you learned from that workshop since then, like at Bryant Pharmacy or anywhere else in between?Natalie: Absolutely. I’m so involved in the world of clinical service development. I don’t see as much of the ownership background, but when I’m developing a service, I am looking at financials and gross profit, what that looks like. And so having that financial background — and what really makes a service sustainable and then contributes to the business as a whole — was really good context to have coming into residency.Natalie: And then one thing — I do a lot of marketing right now. I attempt to run our social media platform. I mean, a lot of developing services and getting people to come to the pharmacy is in marketing. And it was something that’s probably the one thing I didn’t expect to utilize as much during residency, but also in my career — just trying to grow things and I need people to know that these things exist in order for them to come in and make my service successful.Sonja: So that’s great feedback… ‘cause you probably are like, okay, I know there’s a gap here. I know this needs filled, but now I need to convince people to actually access it and use it and do it.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. And that was part of my research project as a resident as well — on barriers to implementation of oral contraceptive prescribing specifically. And pharmacists were telling me our patients just aren’t asking for these services. They just don’t know that we can do this. And so getting the word out there is really the biggest challenge, and it’s where I spend a lot of my time.Sonja: So you also received the Neil Pruitt Senior Memorial Scholarship. That scholarship is awarded to a student with demonstrated leadership qualities, academic achievement, and an interest in independent community pharmacy entrepreneurism. What did that financial support enable for you during pharmacy school? And where are you on your journey right now towards entrepreneurship?Natalie: I think that scholarship was incredible to receive. I received it during my fourth year, so it really — those additional dollars, not only towards schooling, but enabled me to travel to explore different residency sites and look at what other pharmacies are doing, attend annual convention, things like that. So very invaluable contribution to my career with that scholarship. As far as entrepreneurship goes, I’m still exploring the potential of entrepreneurship. Like I said, that ownership seems like a mountain that just takes forever to climb. When I think back to when I first started residency, ownership was way more out of sight than maybe it is right now.So I think where I’m at kind of on that journey is — like I said — exploration, but potentially going in as a partner. It definitely seems like a more realistic goal for me now. And I think that scholarship really helped me explore different things in order to develop that.Sonja: Yeah, I think historically when we talked about ownership, we’ve always talked about like a true startup — like you’re building it from the ground up — but like in today’s day and age, it’s actually very, very possible to find someone to partner with. To get that first pharmacy going and then from there you can build new things much more easily once you’ve got that kind of framework and someone to lean on too. In terms of all of the things that can go wrong with pharmacy ownership, I know it can be a really daunting thing to look at. Feels much more attainable. And then so how have your leadership opportunities that you had as a student translated to your current work?Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. I was highly involved as a student both in NCPA, APhA, POLA, all of the above. I think my most valuable experiences came from my involvement in leadership in NCPA… not only through the conferences and things like that, but truly networking and being involved. That really gave me the most valuable opportunities. When I was applying for residency, I either knew every program director for the program I was applying to, or I knew someone who had a close relationship with them. So that networking really — those letters of recommendation, and being able to have your program director pick up the phone and call someone who knows you personally is really critical. Any kind of job opportunity, residency, things like that. I think networking was one of my big takeaways. And then I learned a lot through leading my NCPA chapter. We actually received the chapter of the year award, I think in 2024 as well. So all of that leadership experience also translates into — we have a 50-person staff here at the pharmacy.Not all 50 people at one time, but we have 50 people that work here. And that’s a lot to manage. So you have to be a leader day in, day out. All pharmacists have to act as managers, leaders when they’re on the bench. So all of that leadership experience really translates into day-to-day and getting buy-in from my technicians for new services. And it’s just really important and really valuable experience for me.Sonja: Well, yeah, and I would say all this experience you’re getting — if you did wanna pursue ownership in the future — that’s gonna be invaluable to you because you’ll already know how to lead essentially a pharmacy that you own. ‘Cause all the pharmacists essentially have ownership in the pharmacy that you’re working. Like, getting all of your techs to get on board for a new service — that is hard work. It’s really hard. So I do wanna hear a little bit about your business plan competition experience. I know it was a team thing that you were part of. I’m wondering though, what the experience is like on an individual level as part of a team. Kind of how did you guys split things up? How did you kind of go about it?Natalie: Absolutely. So I kind of led the project. Kind of developed; we developed the ideas together and kind of modeled it based on a pharmacy that I had done some rotations with and had a good relationship with in pharmacy school. Our team really divided it up based on our strengths. I find that’s something that I excel in — identifying, you know, oh, you’re a numbers guy, okay, you’d be great for the financials. You’re interested in social media, let’s tackle the marketing side. I like to write, so maybe let me tackle the vision and mission statement and some of the writing components. So we were really able to split it up that way.It was a great experience. Learning how to put together a balance sheet — all the financials that go into it — I still feel like I have more to learn there. It was crazy, but it was really fun. Really fun teamwork experience.Sonja: So were there any key lessons that came out of developing that plan?Natalie: That’s a great question. I think it gave me a lot of insight into ownership in the future — the ownership workshop combined with the business plan competition really showed me that some things may feel a little bit more attainable for me, but also like there’s a lot that goes into this that we don’t think about on a daily basis. So that was one of my big takeaways; I have a lot to learn. I also really just enjoyed getting to work with my team on that project — it was a lot of fun — and building close relationships with the pharmacy that we modeled our plan after as well. Really catapulted me forward and I’m still in connection with those people today as well.Sonja: Yeah, I would’ve never even thought about that…how, because you’re working so much on a specific pharmacy, you would then also develop that relationship. Yeah, absolutely. A great takeaway. So how did those three experiences — the scholarship for the ownership workshop, the Neil Pruitt Senior Scholarship, and the business plan — altogether shape your understanding of ownership? And you’re in this place now where you’re working at a pharmacy, you’re in charge of developing new services. How do you feel about ownership? Like, be for real. Do you feel good about it or do you still feel kind of like, ah, I don’t know might not be for me?Natalie: For sure. I think each of those elements — the scholarship and the workshop and the business plan — played a unique role in shaping my comprehensive view of what ownership really looks like. And then add in the residency experience as well. And I got to see some behind the scenes of what that looks like, and looking at service viability and things like that. So I think all of those experiences really work together to give me a good understanding.Honestly, I think it kind of scared me a little bit in the beginning because it’s this huge lofty goal. So I think I kind of took a step back from maybe wanting to go towards ownership just because there’s so much information to learn and I was just a 24-year-old pharmacy student who felt like I didn’t have it all figured out.Sonja: You feel like the sky’s the limit. You’re like, I can do this, I’ll do it right after I graduate!Natalie: Exactly. And then you look at all the things that go into it, you’re like, whoa, okay. Hold on a second. So I think I took a step back from maybe wanting to pursue ownership. But you know, following residency and seeing the way that the owner that I work for does things, I think put things into perspective for me and made it feel a little bit more attainable. But all that knowledge is not gone. Like I still have retained so much from those experiences that hopefully I can carry forward one day.Sonja: I think you’re just gonna keep building on it. I think every year in your pharmacist practice, you’re just gonna always be thinking of new, innovative things, implementing new things, dreaming up like, well, what if someday?Natalie: Yeah, for sure. I love that part of it.Sonja: So can you share an example maybe of a patient impact situation that you’ve had that’s really energized you in your pharmacist practice?Natalie: Absolutely. I think — oh man — there’s so many. I’ve had a lot of fun the past couple years developing services that I feel like have made a big impact on our patient population. I call it almost like primary care at the pharmacy. During my residency I dispensed about 500 boxes of Naloxone. Trained on those, developed medical billing mechanisms for billing for the time of not only assessing whether the patient is a good candidate for Naloxone — which everybody is in my opinion —but anyway, is the patient a good candidate for Naloxone, and then training them on how to use the product as well. So that was really impactful for me from a public health perspective to really expand access to Naloxone. I also — I feel like this next experience really showed me how important those relationships you’re building are with your patients. I had a patient’s daughter come in to the pharmacy and her mom had just passed away. She was managing her dad’s prescriptions and was just so overwhelmed…they were doing tapers on his seizure meds and there was just so much going on.And I was able to sit down with her, come up with a plan to get that taper packaged, to get all his medicines packaged and really make things easier on them. And when I had everything said and done prepared for her, was going through it with her at the register, she teared up. Just because it meant so much for someone to take a step in, show how much we care as healthcare providers for their wellbeing and the things that we can do to help make their lives easier. That was really pivotal for me in the middle of my residency when you’re tired and there’s so much going on — just little impact stories like that where you’re like, I’m really making a difference in these people’s lives.Sonja: Absolutely. You’ve given me those chills, you know, when you get to telling a story like that. So, what’s your perspective right now on rural pharmacy? Because I live in a town probably sort of like you do where everybody calls it rural ‘cause they live in a city, and it’s like, we’re not rural…people around us are rural.Natalie: Rural, absolutely.Sonja: Yeah. So what is your perspective on that? We’ve had so many pharmacies close in these communities. As a foundation, we just launched the Rural Pharmacy Ownership Accelerator. We really want more pharmacies open in these communities. We want more people like you, for example, going back to your communities and being able to open sustainable, viable pharmacies there. I’d love to hear kind of your perspective on it and how we can support this next generation pursuing ownership.Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. I think, especially in Arkansas, we hear so much about the maternal health crisis and opioid crisis. There’s so much going on in the world that pharmacists can really play a critical role with, and really be that — my vision for my services at my pharmacy is really this all-inclusive, all-encompassing healthcare hub. Like, you go to the pharmacy first for everything. You need to get a test, get your medication, things like that. And I think that is so valuable in rural communities. Where the closest healthcare provider may be a hundred miles away. And these people need care as well. And pharmacy can really be that more accessible access point for our patients. And I think the relationships that we build that are longitudinal really build that sense of trust, and being able to be that person that they come to first.I think it’s hard to establish pharmacies in rural areas. Even just finding people to work right can be difficult. But I think finding those people that are passionate about it from those rural areas is really critical — like what you guys are doing — and encouraging them to take the path of ownership.I think we hear so many negative things lately about pharmacies closing and the challenges that we’re facing. But I think it’s also important to acknowledge the positives of what we get to do day in, day out, and the freedom of… I get to design my business the way I want it to be. And my services are unique from the pharmacy down the road. And I have control over that. So I think that’s really important for people to understand and for students to hear as well. I think there’s a lot of underrepresentation of community pharmacy in academic settings.Sonja: Absolutely. Yeah. We really need to be encouraging our students that community pharmacy is not just what you see in the retail chains. There’s so much more to it, but we don’t have that representation in academia from independent pharmacists like we should. Well, we also need them working. We need them everywhere. Your story though, it reminds me so much of our current NCPA President, Kristen Riddle, because I think they live on a ranch, and so she has also kind of done that juxtaposition of — when you’re taking care of animals and livestock, there are a lot of things going on there that really are similar to the community pharmacy world. Yeah. And then also, to your point about flexibility, I think there’s something I read in an article where she was like, I was able to be there for my kids because I owned my own pharmacy. I was able to take the time because I was the owner. Yes. I also missed out on things. And yes, it was still challenging and hard, but there is something to be said for being able to control that on your own and say, you know, these are our hours for the store, and this is what we’re doing. Or you have your kids in your store, and they get to hang out with you in a spot in the store.Natalie: Yeah, sorry to interrupt.Sonja: No, you’re good.Natalie: That’s, I think that’s one of the things I love about developing clinical services, especially at this practice site, is I had co-residents that were residents at, you know, an outpatient hospital pharmacy and also at a chain that’s big in Arkansas. They have so much red tape they have to go through to do anything. And I work right next to the owner almost every day. And I just turned to him and I’m like, “Hey, I think I wanna do this”. He says, “alright, let’s do it”. So there’s no legal, there’s no HR — it’s just the owner and I making decisions on what we feel is best. So yeah, that’s one of my favorite things about…that’s a huge perk for sure.Sonja: Thanks for mentioning that. So what’s your current message for students considering a career in independent community pharmacy, and what would you tell your younger self starting at Mercer?Natalie: That’s a great question. I’m gonna start with what I would tell my younger self. I think I did a good job as a student of getting involved. I just would tell myself to run with NCPA sooner. I wish I had been able to go to annual convention the first year I was in pharmacy school, ‘cause I just built so many meaningful connections through attending convention and just, just being a part of that organization, meeting students from other chapters and things like that. So I just would wanna get involved and hit the ground running as soon as possible.My message for current pharmacy students is really similar to that. I think academics are very important, and I feel like a lot of people say this, but I really wanna emphasize it. The academics are important. It’s really important for you to be a good pharmacist. But it’s also important to be involved. Knowing or having a secondary connection to all my residency program directors — that could happen in any role, in any job moving forward.And you just never know. Pharmacy’s a small world, everybody says, but I really had that firsthand experience of the connections that I built really having catapulted me into my career, which is really cool. So I’d also encourage students to keep an open mind because I went into school thinking maybe I wanted to go in and work in a hospital, but here we are thriving in an independent. And so I think it’s important that that open mind extends also past what the school is trying to tell you to do, what they think you should do. I didn’t listen to that. I went a completely different direction because that’s where I wanted to go. So yeah, I was very shocked at that. But you know, I’m a big proponent that we need very intelligent, very driven community pharmacists also that are willing to deliver a high level of patient care.Sonja: Yeah. And like, it’s like what you said earlier — there’s nothing wrong with pursuing another type of pharmacy, right. But I do think there’s a lot of bias that happens in higher education related to independent community pharmacy, and I think it’s because they have this idea in their head of this old school retail pharmacy situation where you’re just counting pills. And that’s just not true anymore. There are so many cool pharmacies out there doing really innovative things for patients and really thinking outside of the box in terms of how to collaborate with different providers in their community. And I’ve even seen where they’ve gotten with a wellness studio and they’re doing stuff with yoga at the pharmacy and they’re combining with mental health and just really fun, cool things. I think you’re doing a disservice to independent community pharmacy if you don’t encourage people to also look into that further on their own. I think everyone should make their own decisions.Natalie: Absolutely. No, I agree a hundred percent.Sonja: So how can people connect with you if they wanna get in touch with you?Natalie: I am on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with people on LinkedIn — Natalie Novak. And then my email address is [email protected] if anyone would like to get in touch with me.Sonja: Awesome. Thanks so much for your time today, Natalie. I love talking to you and I have a feeling we’re gonna be talking to you again in the future ‘cause I just have a feeling you’re going places.Natalie: Aw, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I really appreciate everything that the foundation has done for my career. So thanks so much.Episode SummaryOn the Script Your Future podcast, host Sonja interviews Natalie Novak, a clinical pharmacist at Bryant Family Pharmacy who grew up on a 3,000-acre ranch in Northern Colorado, earned her PharmD from Mercer University in May 2024, and moved from Georgia to Arkansas for a community pharmacy residency. Natalie explains her passion for independent pharmacy developed through NCPA, her interest in Arkansas’s broader scope of practice and pharmacist prescribing, and why community residencies provide teaching and research opportunities while building longitudinal patient relationships. She describes choosing Bryant for its high-volume setting, flexibility, and resident focus on service development, including naloxone access and an oral contraceptive prescribing barriers project. Natalie discusses NCPA ownership workshop and scholarship experiences, business plan competition lessons, leadership and networking benefits, perspectives on rural pharmacy access, and advice to students to get involved, keep an open mind, and pursue community practice despite academic bias. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionWhat happens when a kid who grew up dusting pharmacy shelves and making deliveries decides to come back—not just as a pharmacist, but as the one who’s going to transform the family business?In this episode of Script Your Future, Sonja Pagniano interviews Justin Wilson, PharmD, a current member and Chair of the NCPA Board of Trustees, past president of the Oklahoma Pharmacists Association, and a pharmacist whose family’s roots in independent pharmacy stretch back to 1977 in Midwest City, Oklahoma. Justin is also a past member of the Oklahoma State Board of Pharmacy, an adjunct clinical professor at the University of Oklahoma College of Pharmacy, and serves on the boards of Unify Rx and AlignRx. Twenty-six years ago, he was a Presidential Scholarship recipient from the NCPA Foundation—and today, he’s proof that investing in pharmacy students creates leaders who pour back into the profession for decades.This conversation is about legacy—but not the kind that gets handed to you. Justin is candid about the real growing pains of transitioning from the boss’s kid to a trusted partner, the financial surprises that almost made him question ownership entirely, and the moment a visiting pharmacist from Iowa changed the entire trajectory of his career. He shares how he earned his father Lonnie’s trust through sweat equity, navigated the delicate balance of family and business, and is now building something of his own on top of a foundation his dad laid nearly five decades ago.Whether you’re a pharmacy student thinking about joining the family business, an owner figuring out how to keep your team motivated, or someone who just needs to hear that the best years for independent pharmacy might still be ahead—this one’s for you!And if you’re a pharmacy student listening: don’t forget to submit your scholarship application by March 15th at ncpafoundation.org.InterviewSonja: Welcome back to another episode of Script Your Future. I’m so excited to introduce our guest today, Justin Wilson, current member of the NCPA Board of Trustees and a wonderful example of how families can build lasting legacies in independent community pharmacy.What makes this conversation especially meaningful is that 26 years ago, Justin was a presidential scholarship recipient from the NCPA Foundation.And speaking of scholarships—if you are a pharmacy student listening, this is your reminder to submit your application by March 15th. We’d love to support your journey, just like we supported Justin’s.Sonja: Justin, thanks so much for joining us on the pod today. How are you?Justin: I’m good. Yeah, thanks for having me.Sonja: Let’s start at the beginning. Back when your father, Lonnie, opened his first pharmacy in Midwest City, Oklahoma—I think it was 1977. Do you know what drove him to open that store? I think he eventually did open multiple retail stores in Oklahoma… What was some of his vision?Justin: You know, I’m not exactly sure what drove him to be an entrepreneur. I know he’s been a hardworking person his whole life. He’s a self-made man and came from very meager beginnings, but put his way through school and was working for an independent pharmacist in Midwest City, Oklahoma. He had a couple of physicians that approached him to see if he would want to put in a bid for this pharmacy and a clinic that they were opening. And he did, and they accepted it. And the guy he worked for wanted that bid as well. And so he fired dad on the spot. That’s like the only job he’s ever been fired from, but he never looked back. So, that was his first pharmacy.Sonja: Wow, unreal. Thinking back to that time, what were some of your earliest memories of being in the pharmacy with your father? When did you realize you wanted to… kind of… follow in those footsteps?Justin: It took a minute. I mean, I grew up in the stores, dusting shelves and stocking. I was a delivery boy at one point and then a technician… Pharmacy back then was a very good business, but I wasn’t really seeing the clinical aspect. And so… I wasn’t super interested in pharmacy just because it was almost like an expectation—when I wasn’t in school, I was supposed to be up at the store helping out. And… as a kid, you don’t always appreciate those opportunities, but I learned a lot from it. And, as I got older, I started going with my parents to the state pharmacy conventions, and I saw tons of leaders from Oklahoma that were always passionate about the profession and the issues affecting our jobs. And I saw how they would get together and work through those problems and make their profession better. And I think that kind of started to sink in on me a bit. So, I went to college… I kind of thought I’d go to med school originally, but as I got a little further along, I started learning that pharmacists could do more direct patient care and clinical type services. And it was kind of like a light bulb went off that here I had this opportunity with a few pharmacies that my father started and I could come in and maybe help develop clinical services in those sites and, you know, kind of take our pharmacies to the next level. That’s what got me to where I am today, I made that decision and did a community pharmacy residency and came back and just transformed those practices.Sonja: That’s incredible. I feel like there are so many people who have similar journeys where originally that wasn’t maybe in their plans. Or, they’re like, “No that’s what my parent does, that isn’t really what I want to do.” But then it’s like those little moments where doors open or things click and then it’s like, that’s what I want to do next.Justin: Best decision, and I know 100% I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing.Sonja: So you received the Presidential Scholarship from NCPA Foundation. How did that support help impact your path to pharmacy ownership?[4:29] Justin: Well, I definitely think any sort of financial support just makes things easier. I was in a position that I was going to go to pharmacy school and graduate regardless, but it just made things easier for us. You know as we progress through and pay for tuition and those sorts of things. You know, I think the biggest thing was just being involved with NCPA and seeing what the Foundation did at convention and seeing what all these pharmacists across the country were doing in their practices—that motivated me to want to do something different and advance our family stores. And so I think it was just kind of one of the pieces that got me to where I am today.Sonja: Excellent, yeah, I think a lot of students, when they get a scholarship from us, they’re already very involved. But it kind of helps solidify for them that they’re being recognized for all of their hard work. Because a lot of times, you’re at the top of the academic standard in terms of what we’re seeing students… who are pursuing the profession. So it is a big deal.When you joined the business as a pharmacist…I think it was like 2003 time frame…what, what were some of those initial conversations like with your father, right? It isn’t like you hadn’t already been in the pharmacy, but you were officially joining as a staff member, a pharmacist.Justin: Yeah, it was unique because I did go out of state for my residency. I went up to Iowa and spent a year up there. And so I was coming right out of that residency as the young hot shot pharmacist, I guess, and boss’s kid.It was a unique situation that my father kind of got out of the pharmacies in the mid-80s when he started his PSAO (PPOk). He shifted to more of the business side of pharmacy and still kept his stores as businesses, but they had staff pharmacists and PICs running those. And so now the boss’s kid is coming in—it was kind of a unique dynamic.As just being the number two or three pharmacist. Getting to know all of the technicians…It took a little time to get the trust of the staff, share with them the vision that I wanted for that pharmacy and work with them to change and achieve better patient care. And so it was a whole process.Sonja: What was some of that decision point that brought you to the family pharmacies?…Justin: I think my first two years of pharmacy school, I was more interested in ambulatory care because I really liked that clinical aspect. And that was going to be my, my focus. And we had a student faculty retreat and a gentleman by the name of Matt Osterhaus from Iowa came to our school. He came and spoke to our college.He started talking about his family’s business and his father had started it back in the 60s and all the different things they’re doing—from diabetes care to cardiovascular wellness… and osteoporosis screenings… and smoking cessation. [7:32] It just started checking all the boxes of what I was interested in and it made me think, hey, if they can do it up there, why couldn’t I come back into my family’s practice and convert it to do those similar things? And one of the practices is actually in a physician’s clinic. So we have doctors we could work with and those sorts of things. So it was just, everything just lined up as that’s what I should do, that’s what I need to do. So I contacted Matt immediately and actually drove up to Maquoketa, Iowa and spent a weekend in his store and then applied for his residency. And, told him I’m up front that I’m here to absorb as much stuff as I can from you guys and bring that back to Oklahoma. And that was the plan from then on.Sonja: That is so cool. I love that story-Justin: He’s still one of my biggest mentors, by the way. Matt Osterhaus is incredible.Sonja: Okay, I was going to say he’s a really good example too of leaders to follow, type of thing. So walk us through a little bit of that transition from pharmacist to an owner-operator type of a role. When did that shift happen exactly? And what surprised you the most when you took ownership?Justin: Sure, I think that’s a great question. I had to start out, like I said as just a staff pharmacist, but I knew that we wanted to get the pharmacies to elevate. I wanted to make sure that our patients were counseled on every medication and that pharmacists were out front with patients while our technicians were doing more of the things they are trained to do which is input and count, get everything ready for a pharmacist. So it was just changing our workflow and getting all those things in place.In about year two, our PIC at that location moved on to another position. And so I took over that and hired a young pharmacist who was also eager to advance patient care. And we just started really working well together and growing the business and services we provide in our practice. And it’s about that time Dad gave me the opportunity to buy in to one of the pharmacies. And then through a little bit of negotiations, I gained some sweat equity interest in my main store since I’d already doubled the business. So about 2005, I had a percentage of the pharmacies but I also had my father as a mentor to help me in that ownership role and learn about it.[10:13] The biggest surprise, though, was—it’s not like you become an owner and success happens just like that. The biggest thing for me was you have a lot more tax liability as you’re growing ownership. And so you think you’re doing pretty well, and all of a sudden, April 15th happens, and you owe $60,000... Getting through that transition was a very eye-opening experience for me. It was very frustrating. I remember having an argument with my father about—what, why do you even want to be an owner when this is what happens to you? And he just said, “Be patient. It takes some time for these things to work out from a cash flow perspective and ownership perspective.” And it was like a switch. Probably four or five years in, we’re generating our cash flow to pay our tax liabilities plus some. And then you start generating actual cash that you’ve made as an owner. And be able to save that or reinvest it in other opportunities.So it was a process, but it was a scary couple of years there as I was learning that.Sonja: So, I know you’ve also started other pharmacies on your own since that time. What’s maybe a challenge that’s unique to inheriting a pharmacy versus starting your own?[11:47] Justin: I mean, inheritance has a lot of positives, obviously. It’s already established. I know I mentioned he gave me some sweat equity at one point, but I still actually financed and bought in to the rest of the shares. And after dad passed, I actually am still paying out my mother on the trust for one of the stores. You know, so it’s something you have to be ready for. You don’t want to just be given everything. You have to make sure that you’re invested. And my father was very good about instilling that and making sure that it wasn’t just an expectation. He paid his dues I had to pay mine too… But as far as acquiring other stores, I think you have the same challenges. I mean, going into my family’s business you know… that I had been as a high school kid and young college kid I had some barriers there with staff to overcome. But that was easy once I showed them my value and what I was seeing as a vision, so we got over that hurdle pretty quick. We face the same challenges that every pharmacist faces just from PBMs and industry stuff on the inheritance side… as far as acquiring…I do think getting an established business is a much better route than trying to build it from scratch these days. It’s very hard and it’s a long process to go from zero patients to 20 patients or 50 patients, 100 patients. So, if you can find a store that already is doing, you know, $3 or $4 million in sales, then you don’t have to worry about growing that. You just have to worry about paying it off and managing it and continuing to grow the business. And that’s what we’ve done with our future acquisitions.Sonja: I’ve definitely heard that recently, especially with all of the issues with reimbursements. A lot of people say if you find one that’s already established, it is a little bit easier than doing it from scratch.Justin: Nothing’s easy, but it’s easier. Haha.Sonja: So what’s been the toughest business decision you’ve ever had to make so far?[14:07] Justin: I don’t know…I…What I like about community pharmacy is there’s a new opportunity or a new challenge every day I walk into the store. One thing that’s amazing about independent community pharmacy is we’re very nimble at changing to what’s thrown at us. We’re very good problem solvers. And so I don’t know that I’ve ever had any just really hard business decision that’s just black and white… If I do this…will go this way and if I go this way we’re doing something different…We’ve just always kind of adapted to the challenges and figured out a way around them and continue to thrive. It’s worked out pretty well.HR is probably the hardest part of any job. And I would say that pharmacy is no exception. The very first pharmacist I had to fire—that was very difficult… I was a pretty young pharmacist and it was on a new acquisition and we were making a change in the PIC. My dad was going to drive with me 2½ hours to this pharmacy and we’re going to meet with this pharmacist and let them go and put in a new graduate. Last second, as I’m basically ready to drive, Dad calls and goes, I had a meeting come up, I’m not going. He just hated firing people. He didn’t want to do it. So he sent me on my own and he was like, you’ll figure it out. And so that was a difficult day. I gave him a hard time about that for many, many years, but we made it through and it was okay. Sometimes you have to make those hard decisions.Sonja: There was a lot of that talk last summer when I was at the RBC conference. A lot of the people I talked to said one of their biggest, biggest challenges is the HR stuff. It’s the hiring, the firing people. It’s keeping people motivated. Like to your point about, “Once they saw my vision, once they understood what I was trying to accomplish they wanted to support that.” I think sometimes it’s hard for people to have a strong vision to get people excited, especially in a time when things feel so heavy & difficult. What’s maybe something you’ve done to kind of help that with your teams?Justin: I try and do quarterly meetings with all three pharmacies. So we have six or seven pharmacists that get together, we have dinner, and we go through what are the current issues affecting pharmacy today, what are things that they’re doing in their stores that are working, what are challenges that they’re having, what barriers they’re facing, and how are they getting around those barriers. Just getting everyone in the same room, bouncing ideas off of each other, I think has been good. I usually take them to a pretty nice restaurant and have a few drinks too, it doesn’t hurt. Then we try to do the same thing with staff.I’ve tried to empower my staff pharmacists at the sites I kind of grew up in and developed. I’ve encouraged them to run the staff meetings with our technicians. I’m very fortunate and I think it’s a testament to the culture that we developed, but most of my technicians have been there like 20 years or more. And that’s a wonderful thing because they’re like family, but it’s also a horrible thing because they’re like family.They sometimes can be complacent or maybe not as motivated because they’ve been there so long. And they know each other so well. So finding ways to reinvigorate them is something we constantly try and do.[18:00] Something I’ve done recently, actually, is I’ve been trying to invest in bringing pharmacists to national meetings. Like we’ve got the Multiple Locations Conference coming up in Clearwater Florida, so I’m bringing two of my staff pharmacists to that one. And had another one at the meeting in New Orleans. That’s been a way to get them out of those four walls and show them—these things that I keep telling them about, they’re actually affecting everyone. And them coming back into the stores also kind of re-energizes the rest of the staff. We’re going to spend money to send you to these things. I need you to bring back one thing to your pharmacy that’s going to either improve profitability or efficiency or patient care.Sonja: That’s a good idea. And then you get different perspectives too. You’re not relying on yourself and your perspective. You have all these different people who know and love your pharmacy as much as you do, bringing back some of that perspective too. That’s really smart.Justin: True. Here’s another challenge: I go to these meetings for a number of years and I get excited and I come back, but I’m so busy, I can’t implement. So trying to tell them about these ideas and then expect them to run with it and be successful has been a challenge for me. But them going and hearing about it and getting energized, invigorated, and then coming back—we’re starting to see better results through that process.Sonja: That’s a great idea; So if you’re listening… and you haven’t done what Justin’s done—sending some staff out to the national conferences—it’s definitely a good, good idea. Was there ever a specific moment or decision where you felt caught between honoring your father’s way of doing things and doing what you felt was right for the future of the business?Justin: Oh, you know, I was very fortunate in that my dad believed in me. He did. He always gave me the green light to do what I thought was best and supported that. That didn’t mean that we didn’t argue sometimes. Lonnie Wilson was used to being in charge his way. Sometimes staff would hear me on the phone with him and we were going back and forth with each other pretty good. And I was probably the only one that would talk back to him like that. But I learned so much from him too. So yeah, most of the time he was right. But every now and again, when I came up with the better idea or the better process, I never let him forget about it. It was a good relationship.Sonja: I definitely think it’s a really good opportunity when you have someone safe like that in business that you can be your full self with. You can tell your full opinion. You can really work through different ideas. And they can tell you if it’s BS or if you should think about something else. And they can tell you to your face. I think that’s such a big opportunity. For people who are looking to inherit their family’s pharmacy or are on that legacy track, that’s important to remember too.[21:01] Justin: I talked to a young pharmacist who went back to work for their family’s pharmacies out of Georgia. And he was contemplating, should I go on and do this other track or should I go back home? And I said, you know, that’s your decision, but there’s one thing to remember: There’s no one that’s going to care more about the success of you than your parents. And there’s no one that’s going to care more about the success of their business than you. And so it ends up being a pretty nice relationship if you can make it happen.Sonja: Absolutely. So, I love that you brought up clinical right away in the beginning of this interview, because I want to talk about that clinical versus business identity shift. Because when you train as a pharmacist, sometimes there’s a little bit of a learning curve with being a business owner, especially in the retail space, right? And all the things that come with that. Were there things that you did or took part in that helped overcome some of those challenges or learning curves? What are some of your thoughts on that?Justin: It’s totally different ballgame now than it was 20 years ago. But I really felt like, as we took better care of patients, then the business grew as well, you know and those opportunities kind of went hand in hand.Some of the first things we did in Midwest City was changed our workflow to let our technicians do the majority of the inputting and dispensing so pharmacists could just be available to patients. And that was a transition we had to do to get them out front talking to patients. Those patients started responding to it and then started telling their friends and family about it. So we started growing that.Then I’d go to my physician and say, hey, I did diabetes education up in Iowa. I see you have this patient with an A1C at 10.5. Why don’t you let me take a crack at helping her? And the doctor said, you got it. Sent some notes back and forth, got her A1C down to 6½ pretty quick. Boom—that doctor now is my biggest referral source for a number of years. And so just building on those opportunities and getting paid for those services here and there and then growing the business on the prescription side was really going well. But things are a little bit more of a challenge now. The clinical aspect has changed in my practice just because of different physicians moving in and out. But we are still doing a lot with travel health immunizations, MTM, not as much with diabetes anymore, but we are still looking for those extra dollars. But, we don’t see the same things we saw 20 plus years ago, if you filled more prescriptions, you made more money. Now it’s a little trickier. Sometimes if you fill more prescriptions, you can lose more money. So you have to look at the patients a little bit differently and really optimize that patient care. Even though we’re doing a little less clinical services today…We’re still constantly looking at how we can provide good care to the patients and continue to be profitable and keep those doors open so that we’re still part of the community. It’s just a different type of challenge I guess.Sonja: And I think the big thing in the profession is those that are able to adapt and be nimble—and do all of these different things and adjust… those are the ones that tend to survive. A lot of people who aren’t really… they don’t want to adapt or change things - they can’t change things because their patient makeup is what it is. And they maybe don’t have the staff to implement new things… you know there’s all kind of different factors. It is interesting to see the different types of entrepreneurs there are in the profession and how they attain that skillset of being more adaptable…being more nimble of kind of being more creative in a ways, is what I see it as - I see it as creativity.Justin: Sometimes you want to bang your head against the wall, but it’s also kind of fun. There’s always a new challenge, and we’ve been fortunate to continue to evolve and make things work.Sonja: Excellent. What conversations do you think families should have before a transition that maybe gets avoided or happens too late?Justin: Well, I could tell you a few things. I was in a unique position in that I never really had to work side by side with my father because he was at PPOK and I was at the stores. We talked every day and we’d do financials and that sort of thing.[24:45] But If you’re going to be in the same four walls with your family members, hopefully you guys get along pretty good. I mean…That’s step one—how well do you get along with your parents? And can you work with them on a regular basis?But then I think you need to have those conversations of…Yes, I’m your child, but I’m also a health care professional and now a partner. Sometimes you can get into a situation where the child may be treated as an employee instead of a partner. And so you have to really make sure that those relationships are clear up front and that you can kind of separate family from business. I think it’s fairly easy as long as you communicate well and do things, you know, for the betterment of your business.And then talk about future goals as well. You know, do you always want to work at this one pharmacy side by side with your dad or do you maybe want to have opportunities to maybe branch out and you go over there and maybe develop that one on your own? Towards the end of my father’s life—this is outside of pharmacy—but I had a different investment. I opened a craft brewery in Norman with two of my best friends. And I’d been talking with my dad about it quite a bit. I’d call him every night on the way home from work. And he goes, “I always thought you’d ask me to invest in that...” And I go… Well, dad, I kind of wanted to see if I could do this on my own. And he paused for a good 45 seconds. And he goes, “I can respect that.”One of my favorite stories.Sonja: I love that. That’s so touching. So obviously your father left an incredible legacy—NCPA past president, the Dargavel and Calvin J. Anthony medals, decades of association leadership. How do you honor that while also building your own identity as a leader?[28:01] Justin: Sure, I mean. Dad’s career speaks for itself. So I don’t know that I need to do anything to try and live up to that. I always tell folks, you know, we’re very different types of pharmacists. He was very business oriented and in the PSAO world, and I’m a little more, you know, boots on the ground and taking care of patients. And so we’ve been fortunate, you know, to kind of… excel in two different ways.He provided a very good example of what pharmacists can do for the profession as far as getting out and being active legislatively and being involved and making a difference. So that was instilled in me from a very young age, so I’ve been doing that since college. But it was very important for me as I started getting to leadership positions to make sure folks know that we’re two different folks. We have different skill sets. We have different values. We have different ways of doing things patient care wise. And I want to be part of leadership if the skills I bring to the table are beneficial to the organization. And so far, that’s been part of my career that I’ve been very fortunate to be in several different leadership positions in multiple organizations because of that.Sonja: I love that so much because one of the things that I really value of my board are how authentic they all are. They are their full selves. They come, they bring whatever skillsets each of them brings, they don’t try to pretend like they have some other skillset. They’re very open and honest when they don’t have something. It’s very clear who they are and what they’re bringing to the table. I love that you mentioned that. I think authenticity in this profession is so important, especially if you’re going to try to become a leader…at the NCPA level, association level, I don’t think it really matters what level it’s at. I think making sure you come authentically, bring whatever skills you bring to the table and lead that way, I think it translates really well and I think people learn a lot from it. So I love to hear that.Justin: You know, people can see when you’re disingenuous very easily. So you have to be yourself.Sonja: Especially patients, I feel like they pick up on that right away. You serve obviously on the NCPA board and AlignRx. You’re past president of OPA (Oklahoma Pharmacists Association). And the foundation actually received a lot of memorial gifts in your father’s honor. What does that service legacy mean to you? And what advice would you give someone wanting to get involved at the level that you’re at right now?Justin: Well, I definitely think you need to start locally. I was involved with our state association from the get-go. And had the opportunity to move into leadership fairly quickly. And like you said, I was President of OPhA. I also spent 10 years on our state board of pharmacy in a regulatory role. When people come and your colleagues ask you to step into these positions, I think it’s important if you can, to say yes.I’ve always taken the position—if I’m not going to do it, who else will? I know that, you know, it’s important to get out of the four walls of your pharmacy and get to the Capitol and lobby for what’s right for patients and right for pharmacy. And, you know just starting at those local levels…and as opportunities open up and doors open for you, it’s important to step through. You know, I tell a lot of pharmacists whose parents are in the profession that:[31:41] you may have doors open for you that wouldn’t have if your parents didn’t do it before you, but it’s still your job to step through and make a name for yourself. It’s what you do after you get that opportunity that’s important.Sonja: That’s really good advice. So, the NCPA Foundation has been around since 1953, but I will say in all my years of fundraising, I’ve never seen so much support in memory of someone. Your father truly left such an incredible legacy. What does it mean to your family to know that not only did your father have such an incredible legacy but it also sparked such a big investment in an organization like NCPA Foundation?Justin: Just a tremendous honor. I’m very proud of him. It was great…. When he passed, it was right during COVID. And so we didn’t get to have a proper funeral for him. And I feel like support like that… Sonja: He was truly an incredible man. I am just in awe at what an amazing life he led and how many people he touched.Justin: Yeah, he was great. Sonja: And he definitely lives on through all of you…Given everything you’ve experienced, the challenges, the changes of the profession—what gives you hope about the future? What are you excited about? What does 2026 look like for you?Justin: I’m glad you said that. [32:24] I’m actually probably more excited about the future than I have been for a long time. We’ve been hit with DIR fees and burger contracts and all these issues the last couple of years. You’re like, how are we going to make it through this? And we look up and we did. 2024 was one of the best years I’ve ever had as an individual pharmacist and 2025 has been even better. I just keep finding these opportunities and we’re just figuring out ways to navigate in the world that we’re in with the PBMs and the way they’re controlling reimbursements. But we’re figuring it out and we’re starting to see real wins.In Oklahoma specifically, we had a huge settlement with Caremark, CVS, and the state attorney general’s office, and my three pharmacies got pretty sizable checks back from CVS for the first time in my entire career. That’s a huge win. People are starting to see that there needs to be transparency, that pharmacists are valuable.COVID was a horrible situation, but independent pharmacy came up as champions in our immunization efforts. I think folks are starting to really realize how important we are to the healthcare system. And I think we’re at a true tipping point—things are going to get better and continue to improve.Sonja: I completely agree. And I think what really is that shining light is when patients know and patients start to tell each other. “Oh, hey you’re still getting prescriptions filled at CVS!? Like, why are you doing that?!”Justin: Yeah, for sure. Sonja: Like, “Did you know about PBMs? Do you know what’s going on?” A lot of people still don’t have a lot of clue, but they’re starting to pick it up. But I think we’re going to see more and more of that because of also how well organized and vocal pharmacists are. Especially independent community pharmacists.I’m very impressed with the profession and what it’s been able to accomplish the last few years, especially. But I think you’re right, it’s like… I feel like the sky’s the limit of where we’re going.Justin: I agree 100%.Sonja: So what would you say to a pharmacy student right now who’s wondering whether or not to take over their family store?[35:52] Justin: I think it’s definitely something you should consider. I really am proud of continuing the legacy of my family. And, you know, I get to go to work and there’s days that I see someone that my father took care of in 1977. And they’ve got their kid and their kids’ kids and their kids’ kids’ kids that are all still coming to my pharmacy. And I hear stories about what dad did for them. And you can’t get that in any other setting. So I just love being part of the community that way and continuing to take care of patients in Midwest City.Sonja: If you could go back to tell your 2003 self one thing as you’re officially joining the family business, what would it be?[36:38] Justin: Stick it out. Don’t be too stressed when the taxes hit you. Probably have more conversations with dad about maybe looking at additional opportunities. I think it was easy for me to get pigeonholed a little bit in the pharmacy when we were partners because he was busy with his project and I’m busy with mine. Had I maybe looked at where I can professionally grow at a slightly younger age—it was just a little bit later in my career that I did that. That would probably have been the thing I would have done slightly differently. I might have a few more pharmacies if I would have done it that way.Sonja: So where can people find you and connect with you if they want to get in touch?Justin: A couple different ways. I have an email address: [email protected]. They can get a hold of me at Valu-Med Pharmacy in Midwest City, either through the socials or just give me a call I think it’s all on our website, Valu-Med Pharmacy. And then find me at conventions. I’m always at NCPA. I’ll be at the Multiple Locations Conference. I’ll be at the legislative fly-in. I’m always happy to talk with pharmacy students. Anybody that wants to chat about the profession, I’m happy to do it.Sonja: Well, Justin, thank you so much. Thank you for being candid. Thank you for showing up as your full self. And we really appreciate all the wisdom you shared with us today.Justin: Of course. Thanks for having me.Episode SummaryJustin Wilson grew up in his father Lonnie’s pharmacies in Midwest City, Oklahoma—dusting shelves, making deliveries, and not entirely sure he wanted to follow in those footsteps. But a visit from pharmacist Matt Osterhaus during pharmacy school changed everything, showing Justin that clinical care and independent ownership could go hand in hand. He completed a community pharmacy residency in Iowa, came back to Oklahoma, and began transforming the family stores from the inside out.In this conversation, Justin gets real about the parts of pharmacy ownership nobody warns you about—the tax bills that made him question the whole endeavor, the first time he had to fire a pharmacist (solo, after his dad bailed on him last minute), and the years it took to earn the trust of staff who’d known him since he was a teenager. He talks about how his father gave him room to lead while still holding him accountable, why he financed his ownership stake rather than having it handed to him, and the 45-second pause that became one of his favorite memories with his dad.Justin also shares practical strategies for keeping pharmacy teams motivated—from quarterly pharmacist dinners to sending staff to national conferences with a simple mandate: bring back one thing that improves the business. And despite years of DIR fees, PBM challenges, and industry turbulence, he says he’s more optimistic about independent pharmacy’s future than he’s been in a long time. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionWhat does it take to transform from a pharmacy student who “didn’t know what kind of pharmacist I wanted to be” into the visionary leader of a state pharmacy association?In this conversation, Dr. Anthony Pudlo, CEO of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association, pulls back the curtain on his unconventional journey from the community pharmacy counter to the executive suite. His story isn’t about following a predetermined path—it’s about staying curious, building authentic relationships, and learning to lead with both conviction and humility.Anthony shares hard-won wisdom on navigating the complexities of association leadership: from his whirlwind first 90 days as CEO to orchestrating a complete organizational rebrand, from building diverse teams that challenge each other to knowing when to maintain your “best poker face” with legislators. But perhaps most importantly, he reminds us why philanthropy, mentorship, and simply “being a person first” are the foundations of sustainable impact in pharmacy.Whether you’re a student exploring non-clinical careers, a practitioner considering a leadership transition, or an association professional looking to revitalize your organization, Anthony’s insights on calculated risk-taking, personal branding, and the power of a dollar-a-day commitment will challenge how you think about creating meaningful change in pharmacy.This is a conversation about finding your place in the profession—and then using that position to lift others up along the way.InterviewSonja: Welcome back to the Script Your Future Podcast. This podcast is dedicated to advancing independent community pharmacy practice and developing the leaders of tomorrow. I’m your host, Sonja Pagniano. Today we have an inspiring conversation lined up with someone whose career path perfectly embodies the transition from dedicated student to influential association executive. Our guest is Dr. Anthony Pudlo, the CEO of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association, or TPA as it’s commonly referred to.Anthony has been a recipient of the 2006 NCPA Foundation Partners in Pharmacy Scholarship and 2007 graduate of Drake University. Upon graduation, he completed the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Community Pharmacy Practice Residency with Kerr Drug in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Since then, he hasn’t just built a successful career. He’s poured back into the profession, giving as a generous donor to the NCPA Foundation in the past, serving as a current generous NCPA PAC donor, and never relenting in his championing the community pharmacy profession and encouraging pharmacy students to consider a career in independent community pharmacy.In August of 2021, he started in his current role at TPA. Having personally visited the association not too long ago, I can say that Anthony has truly breathed new life into the organization, overseeing a major building renovation and a complete branding revamp as well. We’re going to dive into that incredible transformation in a little bit...In today’s episode, we want to find out what takes a pharmacy student to the helm of a major state association?And more importantly, what critical lessons can up and coming pharmacy leaders learn from Anthony’s unique journey? Anthony, welcome to the podcast!Anthony: Thanks, Sonja. It’s a pleasure to be here…Sonja: So I want to take us back to when you were a pharmacy student. What were some of those pivotal moments or experiences that took you from pharmacy school to maybe advocacy and then later association management?Anthony: Oh gosh, good question. It almost has to go back a little bit further, because even before I went to pharmacy school, I usually tell students and new graduates, I didn’t know what kind of pharmacist I wanted to be when I grew up. Actually, I didn’t even come from a pharmacy family, not even any other healthcare providers in my direct immediate family. So when I went to pharmacy school, I was a sponge. I was getting involved in just about every organization just to learn the acronyms, learn the terms, learn what pharmacy practice is really like.I was connected with a lot of upperclassmen as well and learning about what they were doing, maybe on rotations and things like that. And so I do remember a few upperclassmen, I think, saw that excitement of sorts or that curiosity in what I was looking at in the profession. And they quickly were like, hey, Anthony, you should come to a pharmacy conference, whether it was at the state level—I was going to school at Drake University—whether it was one of the association meetings at the Iowa Pharmacy Association, or I was involved with APhA and NCPA and AMCP and ASHP. I was involved. I got involved a little bit with everything, but I just didn’t know what kind of pharmacist I wanted to be.So when I think it was maybe my early foray into seeing what a mentor could do, because they’re the ones that encourage me to actually come. My first national pharmacy conference when I was in pharmacy school was the NCPA Annual Convention and started immediately learning about all the great things that pharmacists can do in their practice, especially in an independent practice where they have a little bit more flexibility and trial by error at times about how best to take care of their patients. So, you know, then I don’t want to say the rest is history because I was still trying to figure everything out.And so yeah, for me, I think every year I was just getting more involved in different aspects of what the profession could offer and learning about it. Because I think most of our listeners probably know that pharmacy is practiced so differently across our country because of some of the nuances to the state laws. And so learning about everything I could that was going on in the state of Iowa, plus as I got connected with people outside of the state, it was kind of awe. I was like awestruck by what the profession can do and got me excited to get more involved.Sonja: Well, it sounds like you’re a lifelong learner, and I have noticed that as a common theme among people who do really well in the profession, it’s this eagerness to want to learn new things and connect with more people, so that’s great.I do want to talk a little bit more about connection. So in a traditional pharmacy role, your connection is typically with patients and the community. But when you’re the CEO of an association, your connection is with members and legislators and stakeholders.So how do you adapt communication skills and relationship building skills to succeed in an environment like that if you’re used to more of like a traditional pharmacy type?Anthony: Yeah, you know, and I come, I had more immediate work in the community pharmacy space throughout school and in my early days as a practitioner. And yes, well, I think you’re right. I mean, I think the communication styles differ, but I think in the end, you have to know your audience. There’s usually a phrase that talks about like, what’s in it for me? So you have to understand when you’re talking to somebody, whether it’s a patient, let’s talk about what matters most to them at any given time when they’re receiving counseling from a pharmacist.Yes, maybe the Board of Pharmacy says you need to hit all these little check boxes, right? But you know what? 6:22 If you don’t address that immediate concern that patient has, they’re not going to listen to anything else you have to say. So you have to address that immediate concern. And I think that goes the same way when I’m sitting here talking to another pharmacist.Now in Tennessee, our association runs the gamut in terms of the practice settings that we serve. So having to understand what is the issue of a large health system pharmacist or a pharmacy technician that works at an independent pharmacy or a pharmacist that works in a home infusion center, whatever it might be, you have to understand what is their primary concern. And then you try to interpret that and help them in any way you can.And I think that’s ultimately what pharmacy school teaches us. You know, you have to understand a very complex thing like mechanisms of action, pharmacology and all of this, and the way that the medicines work, but you have to be able to interpret that, read the literature, interpret the mechanism of action, be able to actually use that information and then convey it to whoever that might be, a patient, a physician, a stakeholder, a legislator, whoever it might be. So I do think the skills in the end are the same, it’s just understanding what is in it for them? How do you make sure that their needs are being met as you communicate and understand what their concerns are?Sonja: Absolutely. There probably are a lot of those skills that are transferable, and it’s just a matter of kind of honing those for the different environments.So what’s a skill that you maybe relied on heavily as a pharmacist, right, practicing in a pharmacy that proved less useful to you when you became like an executive or worked in association management?Anthony: That’s a really great question. And I don’t know if I have the best answer to it because I do feel like there is so many things that I was doing as a pharmacist that have made me who I am. And it may not feel like it’s exactly the same thing, but it’s ultimately helping me be the best CEO in this case.Gosh, if you have to push me on this, I’m trying to really think, like, I don’t want to say like, I don’t, I’m not more empathetic because we totally are empathetic in our roles and who we talk to, right? But as a pharmacist, I feel like your empathy skills are so much higher on display.I might say it this way. I think as a pharmacist, your conversations are so real and you get very deep with people. And I don’t want to say I don’t get deep with other conversations I have with people, but when you really are helping a patient and you know that patient throughout their course of their life, their family, their kids, their ups and downs in their life and how you as a pharmacist help. I mean, you get so much more really meaningful conversations in that regard on a very personal level.And trust me, I deal with personal levels with our members. But I think in this role, at times, depending on who you’re talking to, you may have to have your best poker face and not show empathy one way or the other when you’re trying to say, our issue is this. Like if I were advocating to a legislator, we need to target exactly what our ask is and make sure that it’s clear and to the point. And you can’t get emotional. I mean, it’s hard not to, especially, I know how hard it is. Right.But like, if you start, I guess if you start getting into the politics of politics, you don’t, that’s going to really derail how you want to accomplish. Like that’s ultimately you have another goal in mind that you have to focus on. And you have to do your best to have that poker face somewhat. It almost feels like you’re not being empathetic when you’re talking to somebody. But at the same time, though, there are some great legislators that I have personal relationships with that I can be a little bit more friendly with, if you will. But at the same time, it’s still something that you have the same when you’re staying on message.Sonja: Yeah, not the same when you’re staying on message.Anthony: Right right…Sonja: So what’s a skill that you had to learn or like hone right away in association management that maybe you didn’t have yet as a pharmacist?Anthony: It might even be saying the same thing as like having the best poker face. Like I usually carry my emotions out on my sleeves here and really get connected to people.I think one thing that it maybe took me a while to agree to even want to serve in this kind of role as a CEO, and I guess maybe even my days as more of a practicing pharmacist, I was probably always just working as a staff pharmacist. I was never the owner. I was never the manager of the pharmacy. I might have been a manager of my clinic at times that I was helping oversee.But I always felt like there was somebody above me that I could turn to and confide in or help work through a situation. And I have that too.11:54 But ultimately, the decisions that are happening, the work that’s getting done, it does ultimately fall on me and how I work with my board and my leadership. But it is down to me. The buck stops here, if you will, but with a lot of great support around me. So trust me, you’re never alone. There’s a lot of people supporting you, but it feels different when you’re kind of at the top, if you will.Sonja: No, I completely empathize with that myself. I know. I’m very fortunate to have an exceptional board, and I think that’s maybe something people can take away from that is learning that a lot more responsibility falls on your shoulders, but it doesn’t feel as heavy or burdensome if you have a really good group of other leaders behind you to help move that work forward.Anthony: Exactly right. Exactly right, Sonja.Sonja: So thinking back to when you first started at TPA, what were some of the biggest immediate challenges that you faced? Were they financial, organizational, maybe changing the internal culture? And how did you prioritize those challenges in your first 90 days? So if someone were going to start as an executive somewhere at an association, what are some of those key things that you took on that they could learn from you?Anthony: There’s so many things. It’s a whirlwind, those first 90 days. At least for me, I would say, I was an, I’m not from Tennessee originally. Yes, when I worked in North Carolina, we did some minor work in the Tennessee area and I was licensed here. So, and I had familiarity with my predecessors before me. So there was some familiarity, but that doesn’t mean all the pharmacists and technicians in the state knew who Anthony was. So I really had to get out and about. And I remember my first 90 days.The team here, the staff, really had laid out kind of this tour across the state for me to meet and greet as many people and let them know who I was, what my path to association work has been, what I know about certain issues, how I can be a resource. But at the same time, I think I’ve also realized that I think like in any situation where you may be paying dues into an organization, we probably needed to revamp our communications. 14:13 If people don’t know what you do, they don’t want to get involved. They don’t care to know. So we really focused on revamping our website, revamping our email communications, revamping our social media presence and our brand to really let people see and understand what we’re doing. If you will, peel back the curtain of who TPA is, what we do on any given day to support pharmacists that are looking for an answer to a situation at any given point. So that’s maybe sometimes a challenge to it. But I think that was for me, getting out there, letting people know who I was. Yes, working with the staff at the time and accomplishing a whole lot. But then also really telling our story in the right way.Sonja: Absolutely. I feel like branding is one of those things that gets like either pushed on a back burner or forgotten about or... So I think that’s like really insightful for you as a leader to have noticed that and taken that on because that is a lot of work.So speaking about revitalization, so revitalizing an association requires really strong internal leadership. What qualities do you look for as a leader when building a team to champion your vision, especially for projects like building renovation or making changes to a brand?Anthony: Yeah, you know, one of my favorite books, I’m sure people have talked about different leadership books out there. One of my favorites that I enjoy reading and still reading every now and then is a book called The Fred Factor. It’s basically a book about, trying to remember now, why can’t I recall the author? Mark Sanborn.But it talks about how Fred is technically his mailman or postal worker and saying, hey, he went above and beyond what most people would think is an ordinary job, right? And I think any of us can probably look at our roles as just ordinary jobs.16:20 Even some pharmacists might say, I’m just an ordinary person, right? Like you and me or whatever, just take care of a whole community. And I think really helping find people that might go above and beyond what’s in their job description or realizing, hey, I’m making this decision now, but in a couple more decisions later in a couple weeks from now, this might reveal another problem.And so actually having people who can be independent thinking and kind of solution driven to figure out, hey, we’re going to have a problem somewhere down the line. How do we fix this now? Maybe bring in some efficiencies and maybe some technologies, whatever it might need to be, to make sure that that issue is solved now and doesn’t happen moving forward.We went through, for example, we went through a brand new association management system, which any association person would say that’s like something they never want to go through again. Or maybe for a pharmacist listening, if you go through an EHR or a software change, I mean, you kind of want to do it once and you never want to do it again, right? And so I do feel like I remember working through, as we were planning for that, we thought about all the what-ifs. We tried to make sure we had all the what ifs covered, but there’s always things that are exposed later on. And okay, well, let’s find the solution now. Use your root cause analysis. Where did that problem come from?And, the team, we got a great team here that was able to help us work through that. And the vendor was really great to work with to help us move that forward. But at the same time, it’s like, yeah, I think we’re good. I don’t want to ever go through that again.But having a team that can be kind of that forward thinking, think through problems before they occur. But also even, I’ll just throw this last out there too, is you want a good, diverse team. 18:20 I think many people that are probably listening, you don’t want all the same types of personalities on one team. You need a diverse group of work ethic and personality… and it meshes. And you want to make sure you have that good diverse group.And I think when I was at a point of hiring some more staff, you kind of look at that, right? Saying, okay, we have that kind of personality. I mean, this might be a really great candidate. I’m going to say like, we completely dismissed somebody that we were looking to hire. But yeah, you want a good group that meshes well, that you can trust that will have your back and that you can feel good about if you’re traveling somewhere to a conference or whatever, dealing with a legislator, whatever it might be.So at least for me, I thought that was probably the most pertinent piece when we were choosing new team members but also making the most out of the team that we had at the time.Sonja: That’s really great advice.So many young leaders feel pressured to start new programs or initiatives. I’m sure you’ve experienced some of these kind of people in your time in this profession. So from your perspective, what does true sustainable impact look like in a pharmacy association? And how can young leaders measure their success and communicate it? Even if it’s not developing a new program or an initiative, how can they show their value?Anthony: Yeah, I’ll probably reflect on that in a couple of different ways, but maybe the biggest one that comes to mind is like developing your brand, right? It’s, do you know yourself first and foremost? 20:03 Do you know what your passion projects are? I think I tell a lot of young pharmacists, like, yeah, you’re going to have to probably know everything when you have to sit down for the board exam, right, and be the expert on a little bit of everything.But as you enter into practice, people are going to respect you more when you can sit there and know your limitations. When I was more in practice, I felt like just maybe due to the nature of my patient population, I was really focused on diabetes care, immunizations, and probably depression management, mental health. And I did everything I could to know everything I could. I knew the studies. I knew what a bill for services. You have to know yourself first.And with a little bit of humility, though, you also have to know where your limits are and then where to turn to. And so not only do you know yourself, do you know what your other pharmacists in your community are good at? Maybe your own pharmacy, but even the pharmacists across the street or at the hospital. And I don’t know how many times I would have conversations with a provider or a patient that would say, Anthony, can you help me with this? I’m like, no, I’m going to know up to a point. I can help you up to a point. I can dig into more research and get you an answer, but you know what? You should just go call Sonja. She’s going to, she’ll help you right away.And at the same time, Sonja would be really great about sending people my way. And we would have a really great collegial working relationship.21:00 But yeah, you have to be the expert that you can in the topics that you choose. You can’t be an expert in everything, but at the same time, then when you start learning that those passions in your own area and your community.I’ll tell you, it’s very easy then people start realizing that. And I would say during my time in North Carolina, then all of a sudden I became, I started getting asked to do presentations on immunizations or diabetes services. And it just became more and more. And then before you know it, you’re being seen as an expert or you’re communicating with other experts in the state on that topic. And then all of a sudden you get asked to speak at a national conference. So it starts with knowing yourself though, developing that brand.And I think it’s the same way in association work too. I think I look at my colleagues across all 50 states and we all are good at different things and we all rely on each other. Some people are really good and understanding fundraising and the nonprofit foundation side of things. And I would say we all rely heavily on them to help us in those areas. Others are really good on understanding all the ins and outs on PBM issues. And their people know, and we rely heavily on each other.Or others are really good at their advocacy levels. And how do you actually get the grassroots going? So I mean, I think we all need to know each other first and what we’re good at. And then from there, help each other out at the same time.Sonja: I love that piece about, I think it goes back to connection where you’re saying like, some of it is like also knowing like who’s around you and like what their skillsets are and what their impact is. And then knowing how to connect those dots for other people. People notice that, people remember that. And then those can also be great references for you in the future too, probably. So…Anthony: Right. And that’s, I mean, that’s kind of what in our roles in the association world, we’re never supposed to know everything, right? We can’t know everything. But I know who to call. 23:44 My job is to know who are my 5 to 10 people that I can call at any given day to give me insights on this topic or that topic or this topic. I mean, those are my experts in the field and they help me understand this issue that’s being presented to the association or the legislature or whatever it is.Yes, our association might have policies and positions on things, but I still need to get in the weeds on certain things. And I’m really going to have every answer, but I need to know who to call when the time comes.Sonja: Exactly. I know a lot of this stuff is drinking from a fire hose, I feel like.Anthony: One or two of those.Sonja: So, for a student who loves a profession but isn’t sure about traditional practice, what volunteer roles or leadership experiences would you recommend they seek out now to explore like the non-clinical side of pharmacy?Anthony: Oh, sure. There’s a lot of different things. I mean, it’s sometimes it’s as simple as just reading an email and perking up to something that’s going on. Gosh, I feel like even early on, I think I just volunteer at times just to go help do introductions at a meeting, being like that moderator of a session. And I would get to meet people, right? And you’d understand how a meeting operates, right? There’s something simple like that.25:00 Or I think early on when I was a student, I was always intimidated by going and speaking to a legislator, which is still funny to know where I am now, right? It is. For those first timers, even second timers, I still get butterflies at times, depending on who I’m talking to.But I remember I had a friend that said, hey, Anthony, you know, what are the associations doing just like these free, like they’re doing screenings at the Capitol? Why don’t you come? And I was like, I pushed it aside for a year. I was like, I’ll do it next year. Okay, I finally went. And then you just, you’re a pharmacist in that sense. And I’m like, yeah, I’m taking a blood pressure. I’m doing a blood sugar screening. I’m counseling on proper medication disposal, whatever it is. And before you know it, you realize you’re talking to the Senate majority leader or whoever it might be. And you’re like, no, they are just a person that’s trying to learn just as much as anybody else is. And before you know it, you are able to get involved that way.Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a little bit of everything. I mean, I think most associations are going to have some committees that are maybe lesser, just like minor amount of work. Sometimes it’s just planning of events. We have more than enough events that we need help and volunteers to deal with things. So yeah, it just really depends. I’d say start small. Don’t just jump right into the deep end.Some of us sometimes get looped into those things. I think when I was a student, I somehow went to a meeting and I got immediately told I am now serving on the board of the association as a student because I said yes to someone. And I mean, I think I did very fine in that role, but I think I was involved in a few things, but I had no idea what I was getting myself into right away and then quickly had a lot of great mentors guiding me through the way. But yeah, start small, get your toes wet in different ways.27:09 But at the same time, I usually tell students, don’t forget to have a personality. Like still go be a human being and have fun and do other things. It’s going to make you a better well-rounded pharmacist and a more well-rounded individual to engage in the profession and the professional associations.I rely heavily on a lot of people that have a lot of expertise in planning events and other things than I ever have known to do. So yeah, you have to be a person. You have to get involved and know what’s going on in your community and your state and whatnot.Sonja: I love that advice, remember to be a person first. Yeah. Like you are important too. Or like what they say, fill your cups first or like put on your oxygen mask first kind of thing.Anthony: Yes.Sonja: So you’ve been a generous donor to the NCPA Foundation in the past and NCPA PAC currently. And so you understand personally the importance of philanthropy and supporting the profession of independent community pharmacy, for example. How does philanthropy, whether of time or money, directly support the advocacy work that TPA and other associations like NCPA are focused on? And how would you maybe explain the ROI of giving back in those ways or paying it forward?Anthony: Yeah. How do I start on this one? That’s another great question.I’ll say we are not anything without our members. TPA is nothing without our members. Anthony Pudlo is not TPA.TPA is its members just as much as NCPA and the foundation are, right?And I think in my course of my life at the same time, I think I’ve been the benefactor of a lot of people always paying it forward and giving back and recognizing that we are all on this planet, very short, right?We hope we can make a lasting impact in different ways, but how we best guide the next generation is so important. And so I’ve been very fortunate to have a lot of people that have supported me and encouraged me to do more, try different things, fail, learn from my failures, and keep moving forward.And yeah, ultimately, financially, as a pharmacist, you do pretty well. And none of this can happen without money. And I think early on, maybe I started by just saying yes to simple, some of the colleges I think do this where maybe it’s a white coat sponsor, right? You pay 50 bucks, 100 bucks, right? And I think it starts small, like, hey, I can manage that. Yes, I’m paying back my loans. I’ve got a lot of stuff going on. But somebody there at that place made an impact on me and I want to pay it forward in some way, shape or form. And then I think it became, you know what, for a dollar a day, I can support what is going on with XYZ group.And I talk about that a lot. I mean, think about how many useless things some of us probably spend money on.Sonja: Oh yeah.Anthony: A dollar a day to ensure that the profession is able to be supported and move forward. Yes, I know there’s some people who are just talking about getting involved and some people won’t give unless they’re getting involved. Great, I have avenues for that to happen, but at the same time, what, if you can’t do anything but give us a check, that works too.But in the end, I always hope as in my role, especially that we’re doing things that people can see that giving back to our organization is a meaningful endeavor for them. And the fact that they actually give a meaningful amount of money back. So in a way that, and I’ll say it in this way, is that TPA should be, or at least our foundation or a PAC, whatever it might be, is in your top three. To me, that is a meaningful group in your mind. 31:21 So how do I make sure that what we’re doing, how we’re serving the profession is in somebody’s eyes in the top three of groups that they would ever give to?So is it our scholarship fund? Is it our advocacy efforts?Is it our program for helping pharmacists in recovery?What is it that maybe strikes a chord with somebody that puts our organization into the top three in their mind?And so that’s some of the stuff that we’re always trying to tell that story and helping people see that we are making a difference, but we also need help financially to continue to make that difference.Sonja: Absolutely. And I think it is so hard right now, right? Especially for independent community pharmacy owners, but it’s still so important to make sure that the profession is also supporting itself, right? Because as much as we can pull in outside dollars, the profession itself can do so much more when everybody’s fighting together.Anthony: Yeah… We’ve been very fortunate in a short amount of time that I’ve seen here. And even I tip my cap to a lot of my predecessors along the way. You know, we’ve been very fortunate. We’ve been very successful legislatively at the state level. And there’s some very, very tangible things that I can point to people to say, we have improved the way the finances of your pharmacy, of your practice setting, whatever it might be.And yes, we might have to point and prod and show people that further, but there has been a lot of tangible ways that the things we’ve done legislatively or regulatory wise has made an impact on how pharmacists can practice and how they want to practice. So it’s like, okay, yes, this doesn’t come easy. And we could have done a whole lot more if we would add more support.So like those are the kind of things that I know it’s just it ends up coming back to what how do we convert that into saying, how meaningful was this to you? Was it a dollar a day? Was it $5 a day? Was it what was it? But hopefully we made a meaningful impact on your life on your day-to-day that will make you pull out the checkbook or the credit card or the Venmo, whatever it might be to support the organization.Sonja: Yeah. And everyone’s different, right? And how much they can give and what they’ll give for and what means the most to them. But I really like that you phrase it that way of like, are we in your top three? I think that really kind of reframes the whole thing.So when you think about something like a major building renovation or a rebranding, there’s a lot of risk involved. So what advice do you have for young leaders on calculating and taking professional risks that can lead to significant positive change?Anthony: Oh, goodness. You know, as pharmacists, I’d say for the most part, we’re all pretty risk averse, right? We try to play nicely in the sandbox. We don’t want to mess with too much. And it sometimes makes us freeze in the moment, right? You have opportunities where you could take path A or path B, and you’re almost so frozen in making your decision that you don’t know which way to go.Another great book that I’m sure some have read is Sheryl Sandberg’s book, Lean In. And I know it’s a lot of undertones about women in the workplace. And yes, it has a lot of connotations in that regard, but there’s so much in there about how there’s data to support, how in certain situations, women may not push themselves to say yes to something. And one of their pieces that I love about that is they talk about creating lean in circles, a group of mentors or a trust circle, however, whatever, you can throw some movie references in there to circle and trust. 35:32 But, you know, do you have the right people that can help you? Not necessarily always in pharmacy. Actually, sometimes it’s better to have people outside of the industry help you understand like, yeah, you are thinking through this decision in the right way. And you thought at least about some of the what if situations that might cause risk.And so I think for me, I’m going to circle back not just to my executive committee, but I work really closely. There’s in all the states, there’s our colleagues at the American Society of Association Executives, and there’s state chapters. I’m currently pretty active in the Tennessee version of that group. And so I’m interacting with the CEOs of the Bankers Association, the Nurses Association, the concrete workers. And we’re all dealing with similar situations. Not that they’re going to be able to sit there and tell me, yes, do that or do that. But they help. They really do help make sure that the thought process is going in my head, the conversations I’ve had with my leadership, I’m thinking through this the right way.And so I encourage people, like have a small group. Yes, you’re probably going to have some faculty mentors. You’re going to have some preceptor mentors or maybe some classmates that can be your mentors, but also find some people outside of your normal circles that you can ask and be very truthful about. Hey, am I thinking about this the right way? So you do not freeze and you actually make that decision in the right way.And trust me, there’s more than enough decisions we make that are wrong too. So then you go back to those mentors and say, gosh darn it, like it didn’t work out. Well, what did you learn? 37:13 And if you don’t learn something from that situation, then you’re really causing yourself more problems. But you have to understand that even if the choice that you made doesn’t work out, there’s something to learn.And I even say I have that conversation with students when they choose their career paths. They sometimes feel like they’re taking a kind of a cop out by doing any work in certain areas of the profession. Like, no, there’s things to learn in those areas. Maybe put a time frame on it and make sure you have a right plan moving forward.And so, yeah, I do think have a right group of people around you. And where to find those, hey, you know what, there’s associations that can help connect the dots and make you find people that you may are not always familiar with. So that’s usually where I tell students also, like, get involved at the local district, regional level. There’s a lot of associations that way. Then you can get more comfortable getting involved at the state level. And then before you know it, you’re very well connected in the national level too.Sonja: That’s really good advice. Making sure you have a circle too of trusted people that aren’t necessarily in the field that you’re in, but can kind of relate to you on that level and can give good advice. I love that. I think that’s really, really good for people to know about.So who are three other state executives that you’re admiring or following and what are the three states that you’re following right now?Anthony: Oh my goodness. Well, I think most states right now, if we’re following anything related to PBMs, we’re probably all following our good friend John Vinson over in Arkansas. John is, well, I know he’s had some great predecessors beforehand and great engagement and so much positive happening for the profession over there. And partially as just a neighboring state, something that I’ve always known in our southeast region, our legislators tend to only listen and follow what’s going on in our neighboring states. So I am always doing my darnedest to follow John and he’s a great mentor and friend.Another great mentor and friend, I would say, well, can I do like, can I do two possibly in this regard? There’s a lot, there’s so many good state execs, but similar paths that we’ve taken, partially because I was working at the Iowa Pharmacy Association for several years in not the CEO capacity, but kind of the VP role. There’s other state execs that were in very similar paths and have ascended into the CEO role. And so I look at the Sara Sorums of the world over at the Pharmacy Society of Wisconsin and Jenny Arnold over in Washington State. We’ve kind of followed, we’ve had similar career paths and it’s really great to see them doing what they’re doing and their associations. And it’s just amazing.And then, oh gosh, I feel like I’m going to forget people here, but there’s a whole group of great state execs. But I think one that I... there’s a couple states that I think are relatively new and how they’re having to bring people together. And I look at people like Ken Kunke in Nevada who really work diligently to really form Nevada’s association to a very meaningful organization. And there’s things he’s doing that I don’t know how I can even fathom doing some of those things when you’re building something almost from scratch. And it’s so amazing.I think, there’s people that have been doing this in associations that are well established for years and others that are fresh and learning as they go. 41:11 And it’s so cool to kind of see all of us learning from each other, empowering each other to do more.And yeah, so I’ll just say all 50 states. Can I say that? All 50 states.Sonja: Yeah, sounds right.So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. If a listener wants to find you, where is the best place to do that?Anthony: Oh, gosh, I’d like to sit here and say that I’m like really active on social media myself. I probably would say follow TPA on social media, and you’ll be able to find me that way. But I’m on LinkedIn, so easy to find me there. That’s probably the best avenue. And may not respond as quickly. Just say, look at where TPA is and you’ll figure out where Anthony is traveling around the state or the country or whatnot.Sonja: Super. Well, thanks so much again for joining us.Anthony: No, thank you so much. This is fantastic and appreciate everything you’re doing.Sonja: Thanks.Episode SummaryIn this episode of Script Your Future, host Sonja Pagniano sits down with Dr. Anthony Pudlo, CEO of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association, to explore his journey from pharmacy student to association executive. Anthony shares invaluable insights on developing leadership skills, building diverse teams, and creating sustainable impact in pharmacy associations.Anthony emphasizes the value of being a “lifelong learner,” staying curious, and remembering to “be a person first” while building a meaningful career in pharmacy leadership. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionWelcome to another episode of Script Your Future, the podcast dedicated to celebrating the next generation of pharmacy leaders and showcasing the incredible work happening in independent pharmacy across the nation. I’m your host, Sonja Pagniano, Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, and I’m thrilled to bring you inspiring conversations with pharmacy students and professionals who are shaping the future of our profession.In this episode, we sit down with Emily Fisher, a PharmD candidate at the University of South Carolina College of Pharmacy and a recipient of the prestigious NCPA Foundation Presidential Scholarship made possible through the generosity of McKesson’s annual sponsorship. Emily’s journey into pharmacy is anything but ordinary—from initially swearing off the profession despite her family’s pharmacy legacy, to discovering her passion for independent community pharmacy through hands-on experience. Her story is a testament to the power of keeping an open mind and following unexpected paths.Emily has made significant contributions to both NCPA and her local pharmacy community. As a summer intern at NCPA headquarters in Alexandria, Virginia, she worked on critical projects including revamping the NCPA Student Business Plan Competition and creating systems for board member visits to pharmacy schools nationwide. Her dedication to innovation, advocacy, and student empowerment shines through as she shares insights on everything from applying for scholarships to developing an innovative mindset in pharmacy school. Whether you’re a pharmacy student considering your career path, a practitioner looking to mentor the next generation, or simply someone passionate about the future of independent pharmacy, Emily’s wisdom and enthusiasm will inspire you to think bigger and push boundaries.InterviewSonja: Welcome to the Script Your Future Podcast. I’m Sonja Pagniano, Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, and I’m thrilled to be here with Emily Fisher. Emily is a student at the University of South Carolina College of Pharmacy, a PharmD candidate who is also a scholarship recipient of the NCPA Foundation. And she also completed an internship with NCPA that the foundation helps fund and has made significant contributions, not just at NCPA, but also within the student chapter work. So, we are very excited to have you on today, Emily, thanks so much for joining us!Emily: Thanks for having me, Sonja. I’m really excited to talk with you today.Sonja: Let’s start with your background. Do you currently work at an independent pharmacy and what drew you to the profession?Emily: So, I currently work for Prosperity Drug Company. It’s a local independent in rural South Carolina. We do traditional dispensing, long-term care, vaccines, and a few other services that really serve the community well. But it was my rotation, at the end of my P1 year, my community IPPE (Introductory Pharmacy Practice Experience) at Iva Drug that really made me fall in love with independent pharmacy.1:29: Getting to know those patients on a personal level and learning how to anticipate their needs was something that I just knew I wanted to be part of. So, here we are.Sonja: That’s terrific. So, you’re set to graduate in May of 2027, and you’re still relatively early in your pharmacy school journey, so to speak. When you decided to pursue pharmacy as a career, was that like a decision you made back in high school? Was that something you’ve known like your whole life? Where did that come from?Emily: I actually swore pharmacy off my entire childhood. I did not want to be a pharmacist. I thought it was boring. I thought you’d count by fives. My granddad, he was a pharmacist and owned a pharmacy in rural Wisconsin. And then my uncle was a pharmacist down in Alabama. But I just, I just, they always wanted me to do it and I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. So, I ended up going to school for chemical engineering and working in the pharmaceutical industry on quality, safety and assurance. So, also just so exciting work to do there, but I didn’t really enjoy my job, wasn’t very fulfilled. So, I left chemical engineering after my sister recommended I give pharmacy a chance. I started working at like a local chain and warmed up to the idea of pharmacy school. So…Sonja: Very cool. Yeah, so pharmacy like runs in your blood then!Emily: Yeah, even though I didn’t want it to.Sonja: Sometimes you can’t escape, but your journey is meant for you, you know? So you received a scholarship from the NCPA Foundation. Can you tell us what that scholarship has meant for you and how it’s helped?Emily: Yeah, the presidential scholarship from the foundation, it has been fantastic receiving that. It’s allowed me to continue pursuing my education, obviously.3:30: But I think what really matters most to me about that scholarship is the vote of confidence that it gave me because I was awarded a scholarship from the foundation that a group of independent pharmacists really saw what I wrote, saw my submission, and said, wow, we recognize you as a future leader in this profession, and we want to see you succeed.So without this scholarship, school would definitely be a little bit more difficult to get through, but it’s really just the confidence that it gives you to keep on going, knowing there’s people in your corner. And the NCPA Foundation also has plenty of other programs that I have been able to be part of that have also really benefited myself through pharmacy school. I think the first program I did was the Pharmacy Ownership and Leadership Academy down in Arkansas. Yep, in collaboration with the University of Arkansas.And that was fantastic. And then I did the pharmacy ownership workshop. And that was another fantastic program. So, it’s like, you dip your toe in and then like it just keeps going. Truly a great opportunity.Sonja: Well, I’m glad you’re able to take advantage of those opportunities and do school at the same time. I know you guys juggle a lot with everything you’re learning and doing. So being able to take advantage of programs and doing school, I think that’s tremendous. And we really recognize you guys going above and beyond. Like you said, like that’s what that presidential scholarship is all about. recognizing those students who are really taking the time outside of their studies to develop as leaders in the profession. They’re also investing, right? You’re investing so much of yourself into the profession already. And that’s why that scholarship is so important, too, for us to recognize that. It’s like the little bit that we can do. We know there’s tremendous amount of student loan debt out there, and I wish we could cover the full thing for everybody. But that is a future dream, I guess, for us.So, for students who might be listening, who might be considering applying for an NCPA Foundation scholarship, what advice would you maybe give them about the application process, ways that they can develop, right, like taking advantage of these programs, things like that, to be able to qualify for one?Emily 5:31: I mean, I would just say put yourself out there. You’re gonna-- I know that I have always felt very unqualified to apply for anything that I’ve applied to, but I did it anyway just because it’s like, if you don’t tell somebody that you want an opportunity, you’re never going to get it. The worst that they can say is “no”. And you’re probably more qualified than you think because no one else is asking either; so you might as well put your hat in the ring.Often times as students we feel like we don’t belong or we compare ourselves to another student and it cheats us out of an opportunity that we could have. So really just. Take the time to think deeply about what you want to do with your career and find the organization that lines up with that and for me it was NCPA. And that has just been really invaluable my entire career. So I would encourage every student to just go for it.Sonja: That’s great advice. Yeah. Say goodbye to that imposter syndrome. I think Jay Phipps on a previous podcast kind of mentioned that too, where he’s like, you know, if you don’t believe in yourself and you don’t advocate for yourself and you don’t show up for yourself, no one else is going to do that for you. And so, you’re right. You’re right. It takes a lot of confidence in putting yourself out there.Emily: And honestly, like, sometimes you just gotta fake it till you make it. Like, for me at least, I’ve definitely lived by that. Fake it till you make it, and then one day, like, you’re exactly where you wanted to be. So it all works out.Sonja: I love that. So… beyond the scholarship, you also did an internship with NCPA. Can you tell us about what that experience was like? What is something you learned during that experience that surprised you?Emily: Yeah, my internship over the summer was probably my most memorable and favorite experience throughout pharmacy school thus far. I’m from a small town and going to DC because I was in person in Alexandria—so going to DC was like mind blowing to me, not just the work, but like the place itself…I remember, I think it was my first or second week, I had to go to Capitol Hill and I just remember texting one of the staff members and being like, I’ve been on the metro for an hour. I am in Baltimore. Like, I don’t know where I am. So I learned a lot about myself and my lack of direction sense- and Google Maps. But I’m really good at the metro now in that area.Outside of the personal development, there was, of course, a lot of professional development. I got to meet some fantastic pharmacists and non-pharmacists on staff at NCPA. And they support the mission of NCPA and just the profession as a whole in a way that I don’t think is recognized often or students or pharmacists don’t even realize that we need, but they’re doing it. So, shout out to the NCPA staff.When it comes to kind of what I was doing day-to-day, I learned a lot about the importance of sustainability during my time with NCPA. The progr-NCPA as a whole is very robust as an organization. They are doing everything and anything to keep independent pharmacy alive and thriving. And so, I learned the importance of creating processes and making changes that would outlast my time at NCPA and also serve the membership in a way that’s meaningful and actually makes a difference. So, I believe that kind of applies for more than just the foundation and NCPA, like that applies to all of independent pharmacy.Sonja: Absolutely.Emily: Yeah, we need sustainable changes that last in our profession, especially in business for our communities. So it’s there far past the time that we are.Sonja: That’s a big part of why we’re starting to dip our toes into succession planning. Because again, it’s like, yeah, you’re doing the day-to-day stuff, but like, what if something happens to you? Like, what if something happens to your family? Who’s going to take that role on next? And do they have the resources and the operational setup, right, to be able to take it on and keep going from there? And so to your point, like doing all of that legwork on an administrative side is so crucial, like even in pharmacy. It’s like, if you’re gonna run a business, you also have to have a plan in place…if something happens to you, what happens to your business? And I just think that’s a lot of students don’t even think about, right? Because when you’re a student, like you’re just kind of focused on like right here, right now, I just, I got to get through this and then I got to get to my next thing. I got to get a job. I got to make money.But then you get to a place where you’re like, okay, but like now I need to like plan long term… And so I think those kinds of experiences, I’m really impressed that you got that out of the internship experience, right? It’s not a very long internship. It is pretty condensed. They kind of fire hose you with all this stuff.Emily: They do.Sonja: I think it’s wonderful that you got that experience out of it. And I think that will really serve you well long term. Some of your work, too with the internship focused on the student business plan competition. Can you walk us through kind of like what that project entailed? And maybe there were some other projects you worked on too that you want to talk about?Emily: Yeah. It felt like there was a new project every day. It is like a fire hose, but in the best way. The business plan competition was my most… long-term project that I worked on at NCPA and one of my most favorite. Being trusted with like that historic of a competition was really meaningful for me. But the gist of what we were doing was—I competed prior in a local business plan competition that models NCPA’s because my school, you could compete locally and then win that and then you can submit to nationals.Sonja: Oh okay- wow I didn’t realize that.Emily: Yeah, it’s a little competitive at USC. So, I did that. And it was a train wreck. I knew nothing. The first year was not good. But I learned a lot about the process of creating a business plan. And in looking at the current rubric and resources, I felt like it was a great baseline, but there was more we could provide students with when it comes to guidance.So, we did a focus group of past participants, graders, board members, just different stakeholders and got their feedback and kind of created a history of the competition because that didn’t really exist. And we refocused the competition to focus more on innovation and providing communities with what they need rather than what is expected we provide them. Because those are two very different things.Like you’re expected to fill prescriptions, give vaccines, have an OTC section, but what the community needs, they might not even know that they need it. So, we really tried to realign the rubric with that idea as well as focusing on that service-based model rather than a products-based model. Because as pharmacists, like, you’re really equipped to do so much more than you’re doing clinically. And I guess the gap is that we’re not getting paid to do those things. So of course, the business plan is at the end of the day, an academic exercise. And, you know, you can make things up and it’s like, oh, we’re gonna get paid to do this and this. And in the real world, that’s not how it is. But it’s a great way to start and get students thinking, how can we make a change and advocate for us to get paid for those services in a meaningful way? But that was a fun project and took a lot of work, but I’m excited. We’ll be releasing all of the new content in like a week or something. Look out for that.Sonja: Amazing. Thanks so much for doing all of that work on that project. I know it was very much needed and your expertise and insights, right? As someone who’s gone through it through your own local school and then like at the national level, I just think that brings tremendous amount of value to us too, like getting that perspective from people who actually live it and do it right is also really important. So thank you so much for all that work you did on that.Emily: Yeah, it was a great project. Can’t wait to see this year’s participants. The other project I did that was a favorite for sure and was a little last minute, but it was good—we had a board member, well, the past president, Jeff Harrell, he had kind of given a task to NCPA that he wanted to start board of directors visits at different colleges of pharmacy.Sonja: Oh yeah.Emily: So, the trouble with it was how do we organize this in a way that is like efficient and makes sense and every school is getting a board member. So, I got to create software and kind of figure out a way to make that matching process work and easy for students to navigate on their end too. And the most rewarding part of that was seeing it start to finish, like seeing it from here’s this like idea, we kind of know what they want, but we don’t really know what they want to like, here are some actual visits that happened in the fall, so that was really cool to see. We had Ashley Moose come to the University of South Carolina. And that was a fantastic visit. We only had probably 18 to 20 members when she came. But after she had come, we had 35 plus people come to meetings.Sonja: Okay, so it was really successful in increasing visibility.Emily: Yeah, it really showed a lot of visibility for independent pharmacy and got our student body excited. And most of those people that showed up weren’t even members of NCPA. So which I think is a good thing.Sonja: I think so too.Emily: But I know right now there’s for a lot of students, there’s this sentiment of like, I need to do a residency, I need to do 2 years of clinical residency, I need to go to the hospital. And that’s very valuable and important that we have those students and those pharmacists that pursue it. But it’s important that we also have the students that are on the front lines of their communities caring for them. And it might just be filling prescriptions, but in my brain, it’s not. You’re a pillar of your community and you’re really doing a lot. So having the board members kind of push that more in the colleges has been really great to see.Sonja: Yeah, I recently went to my independent pharmacy because my son needed a prescription. And I mean, they sent it over, right? You’re in the doctor’s office. What pharmacy do you want? And you tell them. But she called me on like a Sunday afternoon and was like, hey, I just want to make sure that you don’t need this prescription like right now because I could like run it to your house if you need it right now. And I was like; this is the difference. Like this is what frontline independent community pharmacists are and do. Like no way would a Rite Aid or a CVS or a Walgreens or even like Meijer or Kroger or whatever pharmacy, call me up on a Sunday and be like, Hey, do you need this prescription? I’ll drop it off to your house. So… I agree.And I think a lot of people, if they aren’t exposed to independent community pharmacy and they are pursuing pharmacy as a like career, they don’t understand like what’s possible either. Right? And so I think there’s so much value, like you said, to what NCPA is doing on so many fronts, so much value to making sure that all of these higher education institutions understand that there’s still value to becoming an independent community pharmacist and that we continue to lift up and support the profession in that way. So it’s really great to hear you say that.Emily: Yeah. And you know, like you don’t see one thing like I tell classmates and everyone in my class, I’m insane because I’m just so like in it for independent pharmacy. But like the CVS, the Walgreens, the Rite Aid of the worlds, they’re not going to be in a rural area for the most part. Some will, but they end up leaving rural areas first. And that is where we have such a great opportunity as students to come in and open our own independent pharmacies or backfill and create an opportunity for patients to have that care.Sonja: I completely agree. I think that’s really the sweet spot for future for independent community pharmacy is focusing on those rural areas as like the areas that we specialize and dominate in. And that’s not to say there’s not value in having an independent community pharmacy in a metro area or suburban area. It’s just the things that an independent community pharmacy can do in a rural community to support even other rural communities, right? So if you’re here and there’s like four other communities around you, like you’re serving all those communities, like these people will drive an hour to you. So… I think there’s a lot there. And that’s part of why we started the Rural Pharmacy Ownership Accelerator, because we started to see that pattern. Like we’re seeing so many independent community pharmacies in rural communities that are doing really well, honestly. Like, their business is doing well….Emily: Yeah, my boss just opened a second one in another rural area. Like, the reimbursement’s higher because there’s no one out there, and the patients are just so grateful and excited to be part of their care.Sonja: You get way more support, like, because you are so integrated into the community then. You’re not just another pharmacy. Like, you’re THE pharmacy.Emily: Yeah, truly, you are. There’s no one around. But yeah, so another thing that I want to make sure we say on this podcast, because I was so thrilled to read this, this year. So Drew Register, NCPA’s Director of Student Affairs, said that you brought an impressive blend of independent pharmacy experience, business acumen, and technical expertise. And I just think that is such high marks, okay, coming from him. That means like you really went above and beyond for NCPA with the work you did, and he really sees everything you’re bringing to the table, right?Where did you develop those skills? Like, does that just come naturally to you to be excellent like that? Especially like the business side of things. You mentioned, right, that you’ve got some of that pharmacy ownership in your blood and pharmacy. And so… I am curious to hear kind of where some of that comes from and what students can do, right, who are on their journey to pharmacy school to also develop those skills.Emily: Yeah, that’s really nice of Drew to say he’s a sweetheart. I really enjoyed working with him over the summer. When it comes to where those skills come from, I guess it’s just a mix of a lot of different opportunities I’ve kind of stumbled into when it comes to technical expertise. I mean, I was in engineering for a while, so lots of these boring math programming classes that no one wants to take that I suffered through. So that’s given me a leg up that I didn’t think that I would ever need in my career.And also my dad, he was like a systems administrator for our county and we would just talk computers every night he came home from work. So he kind of gave me that itch to learn about computers and stuff. And that’s been really helpful. As for independent pharmacy experience, I think the best experience I’ve had is just working. I started out at a Kroger and then I went to Blythewood Pharmacy, another local independent. And then I was like, oh, I’m going to try the hospital. And then I went to the hospital into compounding and then back into independent because I was like, I can’t do this, like no patient care thing.That was really enjoyable getting to work. You just see firsthand the impact you’re making and like, that helps with also the business acumen side of it, because like when you see you’re underwater on every other prescription you submit, it gives you the drive and the passion to want to make a change.So, seeing that is what got me to compete in the business plan competition originally. And that was like the first baby step and it was a train wreck. I didn’t know what I was doing. And then one of the judges was Schwanda Flowers...…From POLA [Pharmacy Ownership and Leadership Academy]. And she’s like, you need to apply to go to POLA. And you need to come learn how to do this the right way. She said it very nicely, but went to POLA, kind of dipped my toe in there. And I actually met Summer, another Student Leadership Council member who encouraged me to apply for SLC. So, then I applied for SLC and that opened the door to the ownership workshop. And things just kind of kept compounding on one another. That really helped me flex that business muscle, I guess, learning different financial components. But for the students looking for the first step, I truly do think it’s getting a job and working. John, the current owner, the owner of Prosperity Drug that I work with, when I first started, he and I would close the store at the end of the night, and it’s slow the last hour. And so we would just talk, like, I would just pester him with questions about pharmacy and school and finance and drug ordering and anything I could think of and that—that was some of the most valuable insight I’ve ever gotten into pharmacy business because he’s been doing it so long and he’s such a leader in his field. So really finding that mentor and that person is like the best thing you can do for yourself in this area.Sonja: For sure. And I think your journey is so good because it is just a natural flow of like, I went and did this and then that led me to this. And then I went to this and then that led me. But you’re open to those experiences. Like you’re willing to say, yes, I will try that. And thanks so much for telling me about this, you know? And I think that’s another thing for students to remember is to be open to those connections and experiences and say yes. Say yes, you’re all right. If it’s a train wreck, it’s fine. If it leads you to something else, you know, that’s also helpful.So, you mentioned in your reflection that innovation isn’t something we’re explicitly taught in pharmacy, but this internship equipped you with tools to become an innovator. Can you expand on that a little bit? What does innovation mean to you in the context of pharmacy?Emily: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, I guess for me, innovation within pharmacy in particular means kind of seeing beyond the way things have always been done and imagining what care could look like. And that’s a great thing to have that like foresight of what innovation should be. But ultimately, you need action behind those thoughts and those words. So, you have to have the confidence and you have to build the skill so then you can actually go implement it because words without action truly mean nothing, especially in this profession. So, seeing those gaps in care and finding an innovative way to create a system or a service or something that is serving other people and then getting paid to do it, which is a really, that’s the hard part is getting paid to do it…In school, we’re taught, you know, a lot of clinical knowledge, taught the guidelines, we’re taught basic workflow, we can work up a patient really well by the time we graduate. And that is super important. But we’re not, I don’t, at least for me, I don’t think we’re explicitly taught how to identify those unmet needs in our communities. And the first step is identifying the need, but the second step is doing something about it, right? And that internship that I did over the summer really changed that for me. It really allowed me to go from this like, oh, that sucks that this exists the way that it does to, oh, this exists in a really not great way. What can we do to fix it? So having the room and the tools to be able to see a problem and then ask for help from someone who’s an expert or who points you in the right direction to get help is just really invaluable.Sonja: Yeah, that’s tremendous. And like you said, there’s innovation, like there’s all kinds of things we can do. But is it actually something we can take action on or is it a dream?And I think that that’s where sometimes people get lost because they think it’s all dreams, but it’s not true. Like what you said, there are things you can actually do that are innovative, that you can take action on today. Like you can do it right now. It’s just a matter of seeing those opportunities and understanding how to look for them that I think sometimes… especially with how much pharmacy has been beat down for so many years, people struggle then to see the light at the end of the tunnel kind of thing of like, oh yeah, this is something I can do and this would actually work. So… I hope we have more and more pharmacists like you coming up to kind of help…Emily: Thank you. Me too.Sonja: To move the profession forward. And then, yeah, tell me a little bit more about innovation you’ve seen at Prosperity Drug or any independent pharmacy you’ve worked at that has excited you, that has kind of inspired you for something you might want to implement for your own pharmacy in the future?Emily: Yeah. One really like cool need I guess I’ve seen at Prosperity is a lot of GLP-1 usage. You know, that’s all the rage right now, I guess, if that’s how you want to say it. But a lot of people are using GLP-1s and they’re really helpful. But of course, there’s like side effects and different monitoring parameters that go with those drugs. So Prosperity started a, I guess like a GLP-1 visit, like a wellness visit that patients can come in, they can get their blood sugar, their A1C, their height, their weight, their blood pressure, just various different labs that we can do in the pharmacy and then give them a sheet that has everything on it with an explanation and also fax that over to their doctor. So, they’re not the only one that knows like my blood pressure’s in range. That’s great. But your doctor should probably also know we just checked your blood pressure. So, it’s also just creating more collaboration within the community space while, you know, making the patient more of an active participant in their healthcare. I mean, I think before I was in pharmacy school and I didn’t really know about this world very much, it was a lot easier to go up to the pharmacist and ask a question than the doctor. I don’t want to pay $80 to go talk to my doctor.Sonja: No, for sure.Emily: I can go up to the pharmacist.Sonja: Wait an hour for the doctor to come in the room to even talk to you for 5 minutes.Emily: Yep. And fill out, you know, 10 pages of paperwork that are unrelated. Yeah, I don’t want to do that. But that’s been a really cool program that we’ve started and it’s gained a little bit of traction. It’s interesting to see because the patient, it’s very new to the patients, right? Like it takes a lot of time for them to get used to the idea that I can go to the pharmacy and get labs, some labs done. Like that’s new, that’s different. So it’s been really cool. But one thing I did see at, what pharmacy was it—was out in Missouri, but we were talking about it while I was on my internship and it’s popping up a lot and that’s community health workers. Yeah, that really excites me.And they’re not gaining quite a lot of traction in South Carolina yet, but I think that they’re going to play a lot bigger of a role in our profession than the average person might think. For those that don’t really know what they’re about, I will try to explain it, but I’m not the expert.28:27: I think of them as like the quarterback of the pharmacy, like the pharmacist and the doctor designed the game plan for like medication use, follow up diagnosis. They’re making the care plan. But the community health worker is the one that’s addressing the non-medical barriers that derail that pharmacist and provider care plan. So, they’re the ones that are stepping in when it comes to like food insecurity or you know, I didn’t get a paycheck this week, or I have to drop my daughter off at school, and I always forget to use my insulin before. You know, they’re the ones that are kind of stepping in in the areas that pharmacists are equipped to deal with, but we don’t have the time because we’re doing more clinical work. So, ultimately, it’s going to lead to more well-rounded care. So, I’m really excited to see what comes of that as time goes on.Sonja: I am too. And I’m seeing more and more states start to recognize community health workers as the providers that they are. Again, like to your point of like, we also need to get paid for the services. We can’t just have community health workers giving services and not compensated.So, some of our grant work, and I know NCPA’s grant work that we’ve been getting in has been focused around that, trying to elevate that in all kinds of different states.That’s some of the work we’ve done in North Carolina is trying to get more community health workers in pharmacies, making sure that they’re compensated then also for the care that they’re given. And it’s amazing how much they can do and then how much that alleviates for the pharmacist and the pharmacy.So, to your point, I think we’ll see more of that too, I think over time, even in the long-term care space, because we want more people to be able to age in place. And you can’t really do that if you don’t have support that’s consistent. And a community health worker can provide that kind of support.Emily: Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see what comes of it. Hopefully all good things in the future.Sonja: I think so. So how do you think pharmacy students can start developing an innovative mindset even before they graduate?Emily 30:30: This is such a good question. And I think it’s really personal to each person and what they want individually. It really also depends, I guess, if you’re, if we’re looking at community pharmacy, we’ll be a little bit biased in that, and you want to have an innovative mindset, I think it really starts with getting involved and surrounding yourself with people that are going to push you to be innovative. Like don’t surround yourself with, I guess, the people that are getting comfortable. Yeah, you don’t want to be around people who are just accepting things for what they are.Oh, we got, you know, reimbursed MAC minus 10%. It’s okay. That’s how businesses go under. That’s how pharmacy doesn’t do well…31:25: So don’t be that person, like question everything continuously. And you might feel bad for doing so. But even if it’s like-- if you’re in school, and even if it’s a guideline, like I’ve been that student, like, Where’s the guideline coming from? Who’s making that decision? You know, even if it’s “the norm. It might be an old decision.Sonja: It might be an old decision that does need change.Emily: Yeah, exactly, So just, I would say be curious and question everything. And with those questions, you’re going to become really motivated to teach yourself when you don’t get the answer you want. So it sounds harsh, but it’s just honest.32:01: You know, if you want to be an innovator, you kind of you’ve got to push the boundary, whatever that looks like in the area you want to pursue.Sonja: I love that. That’s really good advice, Emily. Is there anything else you want to share to our listeners before we go?Emily 32:29: I would just say keep pushing yourself to get involved in NCPA, of course, start with your local chapter, ask about opportunities you can be part of. And anytime a door opens, just walk through it.That’s what I’ve been doing and so far so good. So, you know, just keep trying your best. But thank you for having me.Sonja: Thanks for coming on the podcast. And where can people reach out to get in touch with you if they want to follow up?Emily: Yes, you can actually go on the NCPA website under the Student Leadership Council. We all have a profile and all my contact information is on there if you need anything.Sonja: Perfect. Awesome. Thanks so much.Emily: Yeah.Episode SummaryIn this inspiring episode, Emily Fisher shares her unconventional journey from reluctantly rejecting her family’s pharmacy legacy to becoming a passionate advocate for independent community pharmacy. After finding chemical engineering unfulfilling, Emily discovered her calling through a pivotal P1 rotation that revealed the power of personal patient connections. As an NCPA Foundation Presidential Scholarship awardee, she emphasizes how the scholarship provided not just financial support but a crucial “vote of confidence” that she was recognized as a future leader—encouraging students to overcome imposter syndrome and apply for opportunities despite feeling unqualified. During her transformative summer internship at NCPA headquarters, Emily revamped the Student Business Plan Competition to focus on innovation and service-based models and developed a successful board member visit program that nearly doubled student engagement at her school. Throughout the conversation, Emily challenges the profession to value student contributions, question outdated norms, and push boundaries. She advocates for emerging innovations like community health workers and urges students to surround themselves with people who inspire change rather than accept the status quo. Her closing message is simple but powerful: get involved with NCPA, walk through every door that opens, and never stop questioning everything—because that’s how pharmacy’s next generation will drive meaningful change. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionPrior to launching Union Pharmacy, Dr. Xiaoyan Qin, PharmD, spent 15 years as a pharmacist and pharmacy manager for a national chain. Driven by a passion for patient care, but frustrated with corporate metrics that limited care, she often wondered to her husband, Dr. Jeff Gruneich, PhD, What if I could do this differently…?Complementing Xiaoyan’s detailed understanding of pharmacy finance and operations, Jeff’s background as a bioengineer, biotech entrepreneur and technology and product management at IBM, Roche, and MathWorks, rounded out a unique toolkit for pharmacy innovation. The question became more focused: What if the patient-pharmacist relationship formed the core of the business and everything else supported that mission?What followed was a leap into independent pharmacy ownership that would test their partnership, push them to innovate during a pandemic, and ultimately lead them to create SimpLED - a pharmacy will call solution that’s now available to help pharmacies across the country.In this episode, Dr. Qin and Dr. Gruneich take us through the journey from opening the first Union Pharmacy location in July 2019—just six months before COVID-19 changed everything—to now operating four successful locations in the Boston area. They share how necessity became the mother of invention when they couldn’t find an affordable will-call system that met their needs, leading them to develop SimpLED, an automation tool that’s transformed their operations and enhanced their customer’s pharmacy experience.This is a story about listening to your community, playing to your strengths as partners, and refusing to accept “that’s just how it’s done” as an answer. Whether you’re considering pharmacy ownership, struggling with operational bottlenecks, or simply looking for inspiration on how to stand out in today’s competitive landscape, Dr. Qin and Dr. Gruneich’s practical wisdom and innovative spirit offer valuable lessons for independent pharmacy owners everywhere.InterviewSonja Pagniano: Welcome to the Script Your Future podcast, as we gear up for the upcoming NCPA Convention we are excited to bring you Xiaoyan Qin, a pharmacy owner from Massachusetts with over two decades of pharmacy and pharmacy manager experience, and Jeff Gruneich, her husband and tech afficionado. Jeff brings a background in technology, marketing, product management, and sales, as their pharmacy locations grew, so did his involvement in supporting Xiaoyan’s pharmacies. Xiaoyan and Jeff - welcome to the podcast! How are you guys?Xiaoyan: Doing good.Jeff: Glad to be here. Thank you.Sonja: So tell us a little bit about where you guys are located so that people have kind of an idea of the spot in Massachusetts that you’re in.Xiaoyan: Yes, my name is Xiaoyan, I’m the owner of Union Pharmacy. I’ve been working as a pharmacist for 20 years. Currently, we have four Union Pharmacies located at the Newton Center, Newtonville, Meaden, and Belmont. So, pretty much like outside of Boston area.Sonja: Great. Xiaoyan, take us back to 2019, when you opened your first pharmacy, maybe even a bit before, because I know you were working in chains and that experience can be much different. What shaped your vision for what the pharmacy would become from your time there?Xioayan: As a pharmacist, I always want to build a very trustable relationship between pharmacists and the patient. So when I worked at big chain, I feel this mission is kind of hard to achieve. And then says [to Jeff], you know, I feel I can’t accomplish the mission I want to accomplish when I work at the big chain. What do you think? You know, do you think that we can afford to open a pharmacy? Jeff: Yeah, I mean I think so. To give a little bit of background about myself, Xiaoyan would come home, we’d talk about pharmacy since she graduated, her PharmD degree. And during that time, I was basically working for technology companies in a global sales role for IBM, as an entrepreneur in stem cells, and as in a couple of other technology companies and product and technology marketing. And we would have these conversations about how do I, I feel like I’m sort of… controlled by the corporate system to hit all these metrics, which are useful, but I think I can do better if I really prioritize the relationship that I have with a customer. And one at a time, I’m helping that patient one at a time. And you know, she’s got a background of entrepreneurship in her family. And I had kind of taken several years in entrepreneurship and she was a stable one. And you know, she’s got a background of entrepreneurship in her family. And I had kind of taken several years in entrepreneurship and she was a stable one. And it looked like the right time to sort of jump around 2018 for us to switch roles and for me to be the stable one in the sort of corporate world whilst we hopped into entrepreneurship and started the first location in actually July of 2019 was when the doors opened.Sonja: Okay, so Xiaoyan, tell me what made you confident enough then to expand from one location to several others? You guys have four locations right? So, like what had to be in place for all of that to happen?Xiaoyan: First thing you need to have… what you focus on and then your team need to all agree on the same vision is - patient, pharmacist, relationship, as I mentioned before. So you have a good team and then you need to have a good like workflow. You also need to listen to your customer what they want. So once you have all those core elements in place, and then you, then look at the market, and then where you lead to. So that’s why we, after two years on Newton Center location, we expanded to Newtonville location, which is about 15 minutes drive away from the Newton Center to take care of another side of the Newton area residence. After 2 years, that’s the Needham location we opened up. And another year is in Belmont.Sonja: I feel like that’s a lot of pharmacies in a short period of time. How did you guys go about doing that? I feel like there has to be a lot of rush and excitement in what you guys are working on for that to be happening.Xiaoyan: Yes. Yes, that’s lots of hustle. And also…Jeff: I think we have to go back in time to 2019 and what was happening in 2019.Sonja: Oh- yeah.Jeff: The first location opened in July and we basically had six months to run until COVID hit and I think the way that I got the most involved with her at that point is I was really looking at financial details every day. Are we on plan? Are we hitting what we need to? Are we - are our purchase costs in line with something that lets us operate? You know, are there other products we can offer? And from the very beginning it was listening to what your customers are asking for and trying to give them what they’re asking for. And that took us into, I’d say, the beginning of COVID. And COVID just put a lot of stress on the business. I think COVID kind of gave us the chance to innovate very quickly in a way that wouldn’t have happened if we didn’t have COVID, right?Xiaoyan: Yeah. Jeff: Like, take them back to that was happening in 2019.Xiaoyan: So I think that because, because I’m Chinese, I have a relationship with wholesale in China. I’m pretty much the first pharmacy that have a masks. So we sell some, we donate some. That’s really open up our door to all the customers.Jeff: Yeah, I think we could see, we were looking, it’s my background in biotechnology, we could see COVID was gonna overrun and overwhelm the US. And so, what do we need to do to prepare for that? And, you know, working with some friends, we literally stockpiled probably 100,000 masks. We started providing, I was looking around for, you know, 40 liter gallons or 40 liter bottles of ethanol. We were compounding ethanol.Sonja: Oh my god, haha. Xiaoyan: Hand sanitizer.Jeff: We were hustling at that point, because the community needed us. We were friends with the Mayor of Newton. And at that, basically, essentially at that point when things started to shut down, then I think it really sharpened our, you know, our senses into how do we take care of people the best.Xiaoyan: And really plugged us into this community. Jeff: So for example, another thing that we did was we listened really carefully that we needed to have a vaccine, I mean, a diagnostic test that was prior to the diagnostic test. So we reached out to a company in Cambridge to be a really early channel for them to do their CLIA-based diagnostic tests. So we had lines of people out the door trying to get tested to see if they had COVID or not, for example. 7:45 And that also showed that we’re going to listen to what is needed and where our community wants and try to give them that the best that we could.Sonja: Something that I’m hearing as a thread in this is that you guys are really good at connecting, like connecting different supplies to different issues, to the different needs of your community…connecting resources in your community to each other so that patients have access to something new and necessary, especially in a moment, you know, where it’s like a crisis. I think that’s so exceptional for independent pharmacy owners to do. And I think it’s what makes it unique, right?Xiaoyan: Yes, I think the difference between us and with big chain is we always listen to our customers and then we also, you know really plug us in into the community. 8:58 I think the pharmacy actually create a community.That’s why we, you know just do so many amazing thing is to just make sure our community is healthy and then the healthcare is accessible to all of us.Sonja: How do you two balance the partnership then between like an entrepreneurial vision and operational execution? I think it’s so difficult because entrepreneurs often tend to be visionaries. They also are very creative in how they solve problems. But there’s a lot to say for like having consistency in operations and staff like to depend on that kind of consistency. So how do you balance that? How are you guys partners in that? Tell me a little bit about that. Jeff: Yeah, I mean, I would say Xiaoyan obviously understands the pharmacy world extremely well. She is very, very fast in the store. You know, she knows all aspects of the business. She knows how to deal with patients really well. She knows how to help them with their insurance. She’s great at working with physicians and suppliers. And I think the place where I sort of compliment that is either getting deeper into the details of a complex problem that she doesn’t have the bandwidth to look at or thinking more strategically about what do things look like six months to twelve months down the road. I think that’s how they complement each other well.Xiaoyan: I think that we make a dream team. Like I’m good at something. And then like when Jeff’s good at those details, it’s not really I do that, like other computer wise, right? And then I think we make a great team and we listen to each other and then we respect each other.Jeff: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s not easy to start a location from scratch, especially in the early parts where you’re kind of wondering, you know, is this location going to turn around and we’re going to be making more than we’re spending? And so in that point of time, when you’re kind of at the bottom of your curve, you should have a financial plan. Like how long is it going to take me to get this business to turn around? What’s going to be my lowest point? Like am I capitalized properly that I know I’m not profitable yet, but on my own track to turn that around to get to profitability and be patient with that. And things aren’t going to work the way that you want. Maybe your finances aren’t quite the way that you want, or you have time demands or making work-life balance trade-offs between who’s going to take the kids to a practice.Sonja: Oh, sure. Jeff: Just sort of the ability to sort of change up roles as needed and be okay with that and a little bit forgiving of each other because the big picture is there. You just tactically, you have some issues you need to work through and it might be a little bit messy and that’s, you have to be prepared for that.Sonja: But I think that’s a big part of entrepreneurism. It is messy. It’s not just a clean, like, this is what I’m doing, this is it. I’m sure every day is probably different. So let’s talk about your will call product, SimpLED, that has generated some excitement. What problem were you trying to solve with it when you developed it?Xiaoyan: The problem is, I can’t find the bags. Haha - I don’t know… in a pharmacy, you know, imagine, I have lines of people coming for vaccines, a line of people coming for pickup. And then oftentimes, is the patient, they don’t feel the same day. Sometimes, after two days, doctor calling another prescription. So, they are in the different location, different bags. So, when people come in, I need to look in for alphabetical order to find the bag. You know, if you can’t find the bag in front of that patient, that’s bad. So, I need to find the solution is how I can consolidate all their bags in one location. And then, how quickly we can locate that bag? This is my major task, and I need to fix that will call lane, so everything goes fast, people in and out fast.Sonja: So then, you guys created SimpLED?Xiaoyan: We looked, I couldn’t find any solutions in my budget. Sonja: Okay. Xiaoyan: Jeff, I said, this is my budget, and can you find something for me? And Jeff find a bunch of companies, they all, how many times, 10 times…? Jeff: Well, not 10 times, but it definitely more expensive than….Xiaoyan: I cannot afford. Jeff: Think about what the problem is worth is how much time does it cost your technicians or how much revenue are you losing? Because you filled something too late or just think about the total cost of the problem. We couldn’t find any…Xiaoyan: So I told Jeff, my budget is $10,000. It’s a $10,000 problem. And then, he looked - he couldn’t find any solution for me. Jeff: What that means is it has to be very- so background in IBM and working for tech companies, if you want that, it needs to be a very focused solution.Sonja: Ah okay, no bells and whistles type of thing. Jeff: If there are three problems, I need to be able to find prescriptions very quickly. I need to be able to find consolidated prescriptions very quickly. I need to check my return to stop…And I don’t need integrations. I don’t need a bunch of security that’s unnecessary. I don’t need to tie into my pharmacy management system or provide redundant functions that my pharmacy management system already has. And that’s where, that’s really where SimpLED is. It’s quite…Xiaoyan: So, I told Jeff, this is my three things: find the bag quickly, day 14 quickly, and then consolidate the bag. That’s all my three things, and they gave me something $10,000, that’s my budget. Sonja: Oh my god, haha. Xiaoyan: He couldn’t find it, and then say let’s build it.Jeff: Yeah, well, let’s build it for us.Xiaoyan: Build for us. Build for me. Jeff: We have four locations, let’s meet. We basically built that out, and this past year, and what we found was, well…Xiaoyan: That saved my pharmacy.Jeff: Yeah, it helps.Xiaoyan: I tell you now, my workflows, I only need one technician, so she or his job is find the bag. And then, you know when patient come here, they do pick up really quickly. Everything is the one one bag. And then also the same technician can process the vaccine and they send it to the vaccination room, the pharmacist to give out the vaccine. That’s our workflow. They don’t interrupt anything because everything is just so efficient. It’s right there.Sonja: It sounds like it really exceeded your expectations. I mean - I feel like this is what I want and it sounds like —Xiaoyan: My patients sent me - They said this is an awesome solution, and that’s a…Jeff: I think it was our patients coming to us saying, it’s very obvious that you’re investing in taking care of us. The turnaround time is very short and I can see that the SimpLED sensor buzzing right in front of me. And so you obviously care about me. And so, and that drives our word of mouth. They tell their friends, which makes us more busy, which like, and then we’re able to use this system to basically double the capacity of our of our pickup area. So I mean, think about the pickup area, really it’s, this is the place for any pharmacy, if you’re dispensing prescriptions, this is the place where your pharmacy interfaces with your community. And as you bring more people into that line or more people are coming to see you, you need to be able to solve that break point very, very fast. And essentially you’re putting, the more prescriptions you have or the more people walk in for a vaccine, the more likely it is that that’s going to fail because some of — you’re putting your technicians in charge of your interface with your community. And so this is a perfect task for automation. Multiple lookups of alphabetical things over and over again in a structured order is perfect for automation.Xiaoyan: Yeah, and then my, the people coming for vaccine and they will say, wow, this is very, very different. And then you definitely make your pharmacy stand out. Jeff: Yeah, they transfer. They transfer.Xiaoyan: Yeah.Sonja: Oh, sure, because then that patient experience is really even better than anywhere else. Jeff: Which really gets back to the mission of the business, which is to put the patient-pharmacist relationship at the center of the business and to put systems and processes and people in place to make that, to execute that mission.Xiaoyan: And then your employees happy, your technician happy.Jeff: Much happier. Xiaoyan: And then the pharmacist never get pulled out, says, where’s another bag? So the pharmacist, yeah, pharmacist can focus on what they are doing. If they don’t never pulled away says, you know, help me find a bag.Jeff: I would say higher value tasks. They’re talking to a physician or they’re consulting a patient or they’re doing MTM or they’re doing. you know, a blister pack or something that’s more high value that requires a pharmacist training and time.Sonja: So let’s pretend I am a pharmacy tech working in your pharmacy. What does my day look like using SimpLED? Like, do I have to make sure something’s charged? Do I have to, like, make sure all of the things have their like what - What all kind of goes into that from a pharmacy staff perspective?Xiaoyan: It’s the technician, let’s say in the old time, the technician do not like to do pickup because the pickup can be lots of stress because they, oh, I can’t find a bag.Jeff: Especially when there’s a line.Xiaoyan: Yeah, especially the line and people look at you, still, you know, especially those are S, SH and you can’t find it because they’re low. Yeah, you’re bending down, don’t look at every bag. Jeff: Then you can’t find it. Phone’s ringing. Xiaoyan: And then now my technician love to do pickup. Jeff: It makes them look like a rock star. They log up to the patient and you say, what’s your name? And then they find it instantly and then they can check out. And if it gets too long, then you can bring another technician up. We have two points of sale, two point of sales in that store. And so then both of those can be operating and then another person can manage the queue. So we don’t get lines longer than two or three people.Like if it starts to get that long, people drop what they’re doing, the techs will drop what they’re doing, and they come to the front store. Really, it’s pretty simple. They’re basically linking the, after the pharmacist fills it, they’re linking the prescription to the sensor and then putting it in the bag. And if another prescription comes up, they’re adding that prescription to the same bag so the patient is consolidated. Laura (Union Pharmacy Team Member): We link prescriptions by using the scanner to scan the prescription label, and then we scan the sensor.Jeff: And then when the patient shows up, then you just call their prescription and check out. Laura: When a patient comes to pick up a prescription…We use the scanner to search for their name and data of birth. We then hit the call button and the sensor lights up in the will call area. We go find it, we unbind the prescriptions, and ring out the patient.Day 10 and day 14 return to stocks are really easy now. You can just search for all of them all at once. Each sensor lights up, and you can go and pull them from the will call bin.Jeff: …and check out. So it’s very fast.Sonja: It sounds so stress-free. Like it sounds really nice. Xiaoyan: Oh - stress free! And then just they love to do pickup now because they can, they show the technician, they’re very proud. And then the patient just says, I never see this thing anywhere. Yeah, they love it.Jeff: I think it solved another problem for us - which it can be hard to find technicians, especially in Boston who want to work at the salary that we want to pay them. And so this basically what this does is this makes them more efficient. And so we had a few of them also get their vaccine certification so they can manage the front end as well as doing some vaccines. So now we can pay them a little more and they’re happier.Xiaoyan: Yeah. Sonja: Oh, that’s awesome. So it also helps with retention.Xiaoyan: Yes. Sonja: That’s really nice. So I understand you guys have also some robotic systems that you’ve incorporated. How does those systems compare to SimpLED and how it’s made things more efficient and fun, I guess, and stress-free for your pharmacy?Xiaoyan: I think we just did the total, let’s say automation, we did the total three, 3 automation. One is the production. We introducedParata. For fast movers, it will make the drug really like a, faster production. Jeff: It automates the production so the pharmacist can focus on other things. Xiaoyan: Yes, and then we did the Liberty software because they have templates of the vaccines. So really it made the vaccine process more efficient. Jeff: I’d say for us, we did a vendor selection and they were really good at our workflow for data entry and billing of a patient for vaccines. So for our business, it made sense and Liberty’s been great for us for that. So the third one is the SimpLED. Xiaoyan: The SimpLED is definitely. It’s a transformational… will call being the front store checkout. This is just like a make our pharmacy, union pharmacy like a standout. Jeff: I’d say probably doubled our productivity in the front.Xiaoyan: Yeah. The technician is just like, empower our technician can do other stuff.Jeff: Yeah, if you find… I’d say before our technicians, they would be tired. They would not want to jump into a line. And that like, well, maybe they don’t want to answer the phone.Xiaoyan: But now is. Jeff: It changed their attitude around. I think I can help people and they’ll jump in and it and people perceive that almost immediately when they come in.Sonja: So what does independent pharmacy mean to you guys in 2025 today? I know there’s a lot of things impacting the profession. I know a lot of people are down with it, but I’d love to hear, aside from obviously putting the patient first and that patient experience, what does that mean to you to be an independently owned community pharmacy?Xiaoyan: I, as a pharmacist, I always, you know - you need to open your mind and then listen to your customer and listen to your patient. So like this year, we reach our schools, so we reach our many long-term care. So we offer service to them. So yeah, so don’t really just think about what you can do in the pharmacy. You really need to think outside the pharmacy is what you can do for your community. And once you do that and people see it and people feel it and the people will talk about you.Jeff: Yeah, I would say you have on our monthly meeting with our PICs, we have sort of in-store, how’s the front store look? How does your dispensing look? How your vaccines look? What is your long-term care or your sort of compliance packaging look like? But out of the store, are you, what activities are you working on? How are you reaching out to the local community to help them either understand what they need, or deliver on what they need. And different places are going to be different. Like we’re...We’re in a sort of, niche in the Northeast and there’s a mindset that and a density of people that’s not going to be the same everywhere. So I would encourage you to explore what that is in your local area.Xiaoyan: Yeah, we do a lot of community service. Like I will go to like some gym and we give them what’s it called blood pressure [measurements]... I give them like, you know, we check their blood pressure after they work out. It’s like all free service, you just want to be out there and then show people you care about them.Jeff: I would say another thing, I just big, big, big picture. I don’t want to say too much here, but advocacy, sort of your local state laws are really important and a lot of things are changing right now. I think a lot of states are waking up to making competition more fair for all pharmacies and be involved in that to the extent you feel comfortable. It’s important.Sonja: Xiaoyan, what advice would you give to other pharmacists, especially women who are considering ownership, but maybe they feel intimidated by taking the leap?Xiaoyan: 25:16 Many people, you know, says, follow your heart. So I don’t really follow my heart. I want to do is what you’re good at. So if you’re good at making connections, you’re good at building relationship, do that. As a pharmacy owner, business owner, you need to really open your heart and then really think of what you’re good at, right? For me, is I like to go out of my way to reach out to the people, to do the connection, to you know, make a community to do other stuff, just, you know, do what you’re good at.Sonja: That’s good advice. So you’ll both be at NCPA convention, right? Where can people find you and what should they come talk to you about?Jeff: Sure. I mean, I think the easiest place to find us to stop by our booth is 1629. We’re going to be near the residency showcase. Parata and CPA. We’re sort of in the northeast quadrant of the of the map. Come by, you can take a look at a demo. We actually have an offer there. We have a little discount if you buy at the booth, and you know, we’d love to see you there. We’d love to share, you know, Xiaoyan: our story. Jeff: Yeah, and and understand what you’re working on and see if there’s ways that this this technology might be able to help your business.Sonja: And so - Aside from people going to NCPA convention, if someone wanted to connect with you after listening to this podcast, how can they find you and connect with you after they listen?Jeff: I mean, you can just go to our website. It’s www.rxsimpled.com.Sonja: Awesome, I will make sure to put that in the show notes. Thank you guys. Xiaoyan: Or, you can Google Union Pharmacy. Jeff: Yeah, you can Google Union Pharmacy too. Xiaoyan: And then make sure to read our reviews haha - Sonja: Well, thank you both so much for meeting with me today. It was so great learning more about you and what you’ve created out there in Massachusetts and what you’re sharing now with independent pharmacy across the nation, I think is excellent. I am very excited to share your story. I feel like you guys are two people who are really good at connecting. I feel like that is something I heard a lot in today’s conversation. So thank you so much.AI Voiceover: Stick around to watch and hear a quick SimpLED overview: Episode SummaryIn this inspiring episode of Script Your Future, pharmacy owner Dr. Xiaoyan Qin and her husband Jeff Gruneich share their remarkable journey from opening their first independent pharmacy in 2019 to now operating four thriving Union Pharmacy locations in the Boston area. What started as Xiaoyan’s desire to build meaningful patient-pharmacist relationships outside the constraints of big chain pharmacy has evolved into a community-centered business model that prioritizes innovation and accessibility.The couple’s partnership exemplifies how combining clinical expertise with technological savvy can transform pharmacy operations. When COVID-19 hit just six months after opening their first location, Xiaoyan and Jeff pivoted quickly—leveraging connections to secure masks, compounding hand sanitizer, and partnering with Cambridge-based companies to provide early diagnostic testing. These efforts not only served their community during crisis but established Union Pharmacy as a trusted healthcare partner.Their most significant innovation came from a frustration familiar to any pharmacy owner: the chaotic will-call system. Unable to find an affordable solution to consolidate patient prescriptions and locate bags quickly, Xiaoyan challenged Jeff with a $10,000 budget and three specific requirements. The result was SimpLED, an automated will-call system that has transformed their front-end operations, doubling productivity and turning pickup duties from the most stressful task into one technicians actually enjoy.Throughout the conversation, Xiaoyan and Jeff emphasize the importance of listening to customers, staying connected to the community, and not being afraid to build solutions when existing options fall short. Their advice to aspiring pharmacy owners is refreshingly practical: don’t just follow your heart—focus on what you’re genuinely good at, whether that’s building relationships, solving operational problems, or serving your community in unique ways. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionWelcome to another inspiring episode of the Script Your Future Podcast! We’re joined by two remarkable guests whose story will remind you of the incredible impact pharmacists can have when they step beyond the prescription counter. Ritesh Shah, pharmacist and CEO of Legacy Pharmacy Group, has just published his autobiography “Pills to Purpose: A True Story of Love, Loss, and the Power of Service,” and he’s here alongside Dr. Joe Howe, President of Ritesh’s Charitable Pharmacy. Together, they’ve created New Jersey’s first and only charitable pharmacy—a testament to how personal tragedy can be transformed into community healing. Whether you’re a practicing pharmacist, pharmacy student, or someone interested in “doing good”, this conversation will show you what’s possible when service becomes your driving force in pharmacy. We hope you’ll be inspired by this heartwarming story.InterviewSonja Pagniano: Welcome to the Script Your Future Podcast. Today’s episode brings guests Ritesh Shah and Dr. Joe Howe. We are thrilled to have you both on the podcast today. We will be starting today with Ritesh telling us about his recently published book, Pills to Purpose: A True Story of Love, Loss, and the Power of Service. I think many pharmacists will be able to relate to your story today. What inspired you to write the book?Ritesh Shah: What inspired me to write a book is out of a personal loss, but also every day how I have seen patients struggling for their medication and meeting their ends. And I felt like it happened in a way that everything fall in one place and that that pain that I was looking for that purpose to you know, diminish that pain, and then to help the community that has made me who I am today. That’s how this book was born. And also the charitable pharmacy was born.Sonja: Excellent. Can you give us a little glimpse of what readers will discover as they read the book?Ritesh: Oh, sure. It is my autobiography. It’s a pharmacy story when a pharmacist who goes from filling prescription behind the counter and how it crosses that counter and goes frontline to help people. And the story is about I was born and raised in India and immigrating here, got married to a love of my life. Asha, who’s a pharmacist, also a St. John graduate- I always give that credit to St. John. That makes her very happy. And recently, we had a student came from St. John who volunteered there for three months at the charitable pharmacy this summer. But most importantly, it’s a story of a pharmacist. I was able to write my life true experience that happened practicing as a pharmacist in my six drugstores in Monmouth County and throughout New Jersey, actually, and how a pharmacist can do a job just by going a little bit out of box, by thinking what patient is suffering, doing Seva, right? You know, we all took oaths to serve of our patients, you know, the pharmacy emblem, what pharmacist has - why they went to pharmacy school to serve and that patient understanding their condition. Sonja, it throws me back in behind the counter right now as I speak… Nobody comes to drugstore when they’re happy. They’re grumpy. They’re not feeling good. And how do you put that peace in their mind? But especially the books talks about how I was struggling to get some of the coverage for patients and the bureaucracy and the paperwork and the insurance company not covering it.And also so much of the patients who has to decide whether they want to put those $10 for the food or whether they want to put that $10 for the medication. So I was able to capture those live stories and…My amazing life partner, how she supported me as a pharmacist and even after she retired when this charitable pharmacy was born out of my grief. So I’ll touch upon a little bit during pandemic…I have extreme honor serving under Governor Phil Murphy’s team and doing so many Covid specimen collection, working with Senator Wingopal, Senator Declan, and so many legislators, mayors, and bringing Covid testing in the state of New Jersey. And while doing all this thing, feeling good about it, that you as a pharmacist doing something.And then in October 2021, I decided to go to India to celebrate Diwali with my sister. And that meeting never happened. She contracted a virus. We lost her.And life saw something that I never wanted to see it. And my wife and I, we decided, how do we honor her? stories that I was able to write, what she has told, how we can help people who don’t have any means of getting health care or food.Sonja: Absolutely.Ritesh: So since we can and because God has made us able, we were able to put our building for this purpose and --Listen, I didn’t have to look far to get a pharmacist who can give thousands of hours without any salary. My better half, Asha, was there and, and, New Jersey’s first and only charitable pharmacy was born to help underserved. There’s no cash register at our drugstore. How we help those patients in a four disease stage conditions with mental health, diabetes, blood pressure, and heart conditions and nutritional products.And those are the things that I was able to write in the book and the challenges I went through, the sustainability about the organization.And along the way, a 4.30 A.M. phone call with Dr. Joseph Howe when he was a superintendent of schools in Freehold Borough School.Sonja: Oh, no kidding.Ritesh: Yep, that happened and that has turned in. Now, Dr. Howe serves as a president at a charitable pharmacy.And you know what? It meant to me that we had to meet that way and we did. And today, our charitable pharmacy, as we speak, we are walking towards hitting $2 million worth of medication.Sonja: No way.Ritesh: Yes. That’s where the numbers going. I’m pretty sure this Saturday, our sold out event, Pills 2 Purpose Gala that we have. We have the physical launch of the book. And I just saw the infographics a few minutes ago. We are at $9.98 million. So by Saturday, we’ll be $2 million dispensing medicine. So this is what I was able to write. I’m thankful to so many people who has made me and inspired me, especially my daughter, who told me it has to be in a book. You need to write it and you need to let.Sonja: Kids are the best.Ritesh: And this is what happened in this book. Thousands plus copies got sold on Amazon and we are now taking book at next level.So I want each and every pharmacist, every patient, every pharma, manufacturer, doctor, patient to read what pharmacists can do and the people, those who are connected with the pharmacy and the great profession of pharmacy, how they can support.7:14 I’m thankful to you, Doug Hoey, and NCPA Foundation for giving us this opportunity as well. Thank you.Sonja: Thank you so much, Ritesh. What an inspiring story. And I feel like you’re right. There is so much that pharmacists can do. It is not just the things behind the counter. It’s also the things you do that go above and beyond. And truly, your story is a testament to that. And I think pharmacists who read your book might feel really inspired by it and kind of have that hope renewed for them, especially in such a challenging time. Joe Howe, I would love to dig in a little bit with you about the charitable pharmacy work.What led you to this charitable pharmacy work? I know Ritesh touched on it a little bit… Are you a pharmacist as well? Do you have a pharmacist license?Dr. Howe: No, absolutely not. And Ritesh is kind enough to give me my academic title of doctor, but it’s in no clinical sense whatsoever…the height of the pandemic, school administrator schools are closed and part of reopening schools was getting covid testing. This was around January, February 2021 and Covid tests were just becoming available. And the issue was nobody had them. Our hospital didn’t have them. The health department didn’t have them. The state didn’t have them. And just on a whim, somebody said to me, hey, there’s this pharmacist in the next town over. He’s able to help with Covid testing. So I reached out to him very early in the morning, and I did not know at the time that he’s also a very early person. So 4:30, I emailed 4:32, and he responded.And… He said, this was in the middle of the week…And he said, I’ll be there on Sunday. We’ll do the Covid test Sunday night, leave the lab open all day. And this way you can reopen school on Monday morning. And we were very, we had heard things like this before that people were going to commit to doing this. So we halfheartedly said, okay, not thinking that this was actually going to happen. Sonja: And you hadn’t met Ritesh yet…Dr. Howe: Not only did he show up, not only did he show up, he showed up with double the amount that he said he would. He showed up himself with Asha and they did it themselves. And I didn’t know at the time he’s the CEO of this multi-state GPO, multi-millions of dollars. And here he is himself spending time on a Sunday to do this.And it just really unraveled from there that when the vaccinations came out, the same thing happened. And there was at one point in time, I was probably speaking with him four or five times a day. And so in that, probably around November, December, 2021, he had said to me, you know…I know his sister had passed away, and he had been in the school now numerous times, interacting with the population. They were lower socioeconomic status.They knew he was a pharmacist. They said, hey, my son or daughter, they have trouble getting their insulin or their inhaler, or my mother and father have trouble getting their medicine. I think something clicked in him and said, there must be a better way to do this. And so he called me late one night, it was probably around 9 or 10 o’clock at night saying, hey, this idea for a charitable pharmacy are you willing to come on my advisory board and help me get this started.And we have a joke that there’s quick and then there’s Ritesh speed. So within the next couple of weeks, we were testifying in front of the Board of Pharmacy. He already had the site secured, as he said, our form is…our wonderful pharmacist in charge, Asha, was ready to go. And so it all came together really very quickly, especially knowing how bogged down things like this can get. The pharmacy opened, and the first couple of weeks, it was kind of slow going.We had a lot of news coverage. All the major networks came to interview Ritesh, and there was a number of press articles. And then…All of a sudden, one day, a patient walks in that was just discharged from the emergency room. And I think Ritesh was the one who was there who experienced it. He could probably, he should probably be the one telling the story.But it was about a patient who had just been discharged from the emergency room. They had no place to go to get their prescription. They hadn’t eaten in days, probably. And he was able to fill the prescription. He took the next door to a restaurant, get them something to eat. Sarah Gopal has a Civic Association food pantry in the back. We were able to give him a bag of toiletries. And then just from there, people just started coming in.And now we’re over capacity, probably, as he said, $1.98 million in medication dispensed over the past three years, hundreds of patients, hundreds of patients getting refills on their prescriptions. And that’s what makes this pharmacy different from the major chain pharmacies. We’re very much an independent community pharmacy. We know all the patients walking in the door. I was there once and she was filling a prescription.And before the woman walked out the door, she said, hey, where is your husband? He needs a refill for this medication. Come back here. Let’s get him on the phone. Let’s get this done. And that’s the difference. And that’s the care they show for each individual patient. They’ve been able to sustain that despite the tremendous growth that we faced. Sonja: No and…You talking about it being like an independent pharmacy, like in describing it, it does sound like it to me. It’s like going above and beyond for patients and really listening and hearing them out, but also taking that extra step when they might not ask for help. Like they might need help and you can see that and you know that. And I think that’s really what makes that difference. That’s that service piece that Ritesh was speaking to as well. How do you guys work with independent pharmacies in your area? Do you guys do anything with them as part of the charitable pharmacy work? Like, do you refer patients back and forth or anything like that?Ritesh: Million dollar question. Let me go back when you said about, so in the Indian Bhagavad Gita in our holy book is written, when you extend your surveys before even the hand as extended for ask, I think it has bigger and better value and better monuments. You’re getting more blessings. So I think with those principles, recognizing there’s a need and seeing them in their eyes and doing this. I remember how this pharmacy has become a healthcare center in Dr. Howe House, having Senator Wingopel’s food pantry in the back. And when they come in working together, having their toothpaste, the toiletries, the can of beans, small rice, and when they’re coming for medication, we hear their conversation and they’re not doing it. Getting their bag of food is also something that goes in that pharmacy.But answering your question, there was a case for foundation has done study when pharmacy was born. My son, who’s a doctor now, and Yersha, who’s also a medical student doing residency. They have done a study. There are about there were about close to 80,000 prescriptions never reaches to the drugstore. So doctor can prescribe the medication. Hey, healthcare, you go to hospital, they have to treat you. It’s a lot, right? They go in, they got give you a prescription for metoprolol. They give you a prescription for insulin, for... Guess what, now? What happens? They don’t have money. They made so little more, they don’t get qualified for Medicaid or Medicare. And now they don’t have enough to buy their own insurance, otherwise they’ll go broke. So those kind of lives that we are touching right now at the charitable pharmacy, and those lives are so appreciative. We have so many success stories and testimonials where patients have their sugar and their hemoglobin A1C in a 15, 16, their blood sugar, morning fasting in 400s, we’re able to control that. And those kind of stuff, when those kind of patients goes to community pharmacy, retail pharmacy, those who are for profit. I come from that world, so I know how it is.And they know when they don’t have it, they direct those patients to our way. And this has became complete a mission. And sometimes there are formulary medication because we have about 500 medications. There are drugs. They’re right now not in our formulary. So we have a partnership with local pharmacies and we reach out to them. They know when they get a phone call from RSCP, we call Ritesh’s Charitable Pharmacy. They know what’s the need. So they’re very kind to the patients and they eat a lot of profit and probably barely give them at cost to cost.And it has just given them by having this kind of charitable pharmacy in Monmouth County, you know, people, how much they appreciate it, not only in Monmouth County, but in the surrounding counties, you know. So I’ll give you live incidents. We have patients from Union County. That’s where New Jersey has their Senate president. We have a partnership with them.So Union County sends twice a week their delivery person to pick up the medication for their underserved patients. So, it’s now more than a year, so local pharmacy in Union County found out, hey, there is a charitable pharmacy called Ritesh Shah. In my daytime job as a Legacy Pharmacy Group, like, you know, I have a member of pharmacy in Union County.They said, oh, that’s our Ritesh, our GPO. And then they find out the mission. And sometime patient on Saturday, Sunday, they go to their pharmacy. They’re, oh, you get the drugs, but the pharmacist…and they help them out. So I think the word is spreading and that heart is being created.It was always there, but now you’re inspiring other pharmacists to go a little bit extra you know out of it. So I think that’s what is happening, answering your question, working with a small market.Sonja: Well that’s certainly an incredible partnership and it helps the whole patient. Right? And it’s important for the pharmacies to know that you guys exist and for you to know that they exist so that you can call upon each other when you need each other and when a patient needs additional assistance, especially. I know we talk about that a lot with our disaster response work as well. It’s so important for independent pharmacies to be integrated into the local community, into these different systems. Even if you’re not doing like charitable pharmacy work yourself, there is benefit to knowing what’s possible at the charitable pharmacy for your patients and vice versa. So, Joe - were you going to say something too?Dr. Howe: Yeah, we there’s another program we started with a local independent pharmacy, Marlboro Medical Arts Pharmacy is one of the best independent pharmacies in the state. Every year, at least once or twice a year, we’re in local school districts giving flu vaccinations back to school vaccines that are required for school attendance. And we partnered with Marlboro Medical Arts Pharmacy to get those flu vaccines.So a lot of times when the kids come in, they’re also coming in with mom, dad, aunt, uncle, grandparents, whoever will take anybody. And so for people that don’t qualify for our services, because we operate under the guidelines of Ministry of Hope. If they don’t qualify for our services, then we have Marlboro medical pharmacy sitting right next to us, able to give the flu vaccine right on the spot or whatever vaccinations are needed. 19:43 So it’s really a close partnership with with them and a lot of independent pharmacies in the area.Sonja: I love this. I definitely want to see more of it happening. Like across the United States.Ritesh: Well, from your mouth to God’s ear, we’ve been getting a lot of phone calls from so many fans and leaders. So you never know, right, where the God’s calling is.Sonja: Well, Ritesh, I know you mentioned the pharmacy group, and I definitely want to tell our listeners a bit more about that because I think it’s very interesting, especially to people who are newer to the field and interested in pharmacy ownership. They might have a lot of questions about pharmacy groups and how to get involved with that.So you serve as their CEO and managing partner of the Legacy Pharmacy Group, and there’s 550 pharmacy members, and you’ve been operating these past seven years. I did my little bit of research.Ritesh: Thank you.Sonja: So what’s the key to building successful partnerships when you’re in a pharmacy group?Ritesh: So you know what my grandpa used to say, when you do things you’re right, things fall asleep through. I always told my kids, when you worship to goddess of knowledge, that’s we do, goddess of wealth always follows, right? Means your doctor, the resilient, and that good salary or good income also falls in. So putting that into it. Before even I became legacy, having… seven drugstores, six now in Monmouth County, in Holmdel, Gainsburg, Marlboro, Red Bank, Marijuana, and Red Bank area.Not only have that filled prescriptions, but I have filled, I have worked very closely with the senior centers and everything, but also… working very closely with legislators, you know, throughout those 20 years for getting better access for patients… getting better care for patients and how insurance company will deny and prior authorization process and you can only choose this pharmacy. And in my eyes, so many things that is happening wrong.So I developed my network working with local legislators and working with the PACs and doing things. So at that time, I was not no CEO of Legacy Pharmacy Group. I was just doing it by my heart working with a group of organizations. But in 2019, I got a call to join this GPO.And we had about 150 plus pharmacies. And then I had opportunity to work with Cardinal Health. I had opportunity to work with McKesson. And then…People knew me as a pharmacist in a community for 20 years working and I reached out to them with the structure and the plan how I can help community pharmacy.And for them to see that Ritesh has own pharmacies and he knows what struggles are. I think I saw a lot of love. I’m going to correct my LinkedIn page or whatever page we have 700, 720 plus pharmacies now. Sonja: Oh wow! Ok that’s huge!Ritesh: Yeah, so we work very closely with Cardinal and McKesson actually.And during even pandemic, right from day one in 2019, I took over. We walked right into the pandemic and we grew during pandemic because I was knocking on the doors of pharmacy owners because they were closed. They had no income. And then I brought this COVID specimen collection program through FEMA and through the federal.And I said, guys, I can do this. I can make that happen. Sonja, I remember my call with the health secretary that day and working with the governor, getting him hundreds of thousands plus hydroxychloroquine. I still have that picture.State trooper went to Brooklyn to VLS Pharmacy, who was also an NCPA member, to get those controversial drugs and at that time for hospital patients. But more so it, I was able to keep my community pharmacies open by getting them residual income. That law increased, that growth increased, the legacy became stronger.There was a need for having our own distribution center to help support whether private sector or public sector. And we expanded it during that time.So we have Legacy Health US, a secondary generic distribution center, which we are also…And hey, listen, I got a call from Florida. We went to Florida, got a call from Orange County, California. We went there and we started expanding, you know, and while this was all happening, but in my eyes, when you do your job as a pharmacist correctly, they follow you.Even I’m telling you this Saturday, our sold out event, you’ll see like almost 100 pharmacists will be there. They’re coming to support the cause because they know what we are doing. And I think that’s where it’s going to legacy. Because one of my member pharmacy recently who joined, he told me this, and I wear this legacy pin very proudly.Hey Ritesh, if you’re putting something out of your pocket to run the charitable pharmacy, where you’re not collecting rent, where your wife does not have salary, you volunteer and you have it. And that requires a lot of money. We know that. So we know that joining your group, you always going to do right by us and we don’t have to worry about those few $1,000. And that speaks so much.That speaks so much about…RSCP, it speaks so much about what pharmacists can do. So it makes me so proud. My entire team, you have met them and you know, Prag Patel, Dan Alaimo, Adam, John Dutch, our clinical pharmacist, Angel, they work so hard.And…And now that expanded, they understand our mission. So Legacy Pharmacy Group has became kind of three prong stool. I wrote article in Pharmacy times years back and that my 3 prong becomes Legacy, Legacy Health and RSCP with my medical ATC that I have in cannabis world.So it’s all came together and Legacy became more stronger by realizing having get featured on America’s Pharmacist Magazine for because of Charitable Pharmacy. I remember my interview and how Doug called me, Ritesh, this story needs to be told. And October 2023, that article went out. And so many phone calls I got, I got connected that, hey, how did you do it? How can I do it? Because people go through this, right? You go through pain and people find their purpose. And that’s why this book was being called Pills to Purpose pharmacy story.So for me, everything gets combined together.Sonja: No, I think that’s excellent. And I love that you’re wearing the little PBM greed button. Stop PBM greed from NCPA. I think that advocacy is so important, even if you are a nonprofit, even if you are an individual, even if you are a pharmacist, right? Making sure that you fully understand the impacts to the healthcare system, how that’s impacting healthcare access, That’s a big central part of our mission.And I think it’s so incredible all the work you’re able to do and all the people you’ve inspired through the work.Ritesh: You know what, transparency is very important. Transparency is not happening in Littlefield. I was just reading one of the article for state of New Jersey employees benefits. They’re going up by 30%. And…There’s a lot of fraud, waste, and abuse. There are so many stories where PBMs own their own pharmacies, how they get reimbursed, and how independent pharmacy gets screwed. There are pharmacy desserts has been created right now, and I am so much worried about those patients because I have that kind of horror. I remember my conversation and statistics that we have. Every third day, one pharmacy, independent pharmacy is closing. It’s crazy, very similar numbers because we can’t keep up our doors open because of this kind of reimbursement.So the fight is on.And you know what, Sonja?28:21 Patients are suffering. Corporate greed is not needed. When you ask doctors, they’re frustrated. When you ask patients, they’re frustrated. Premiums are going up. The healthcare premiums are going up. And I see quarter after quarters, they’re big PBMs… they’re a profit and they’re every quarterly billions and billions of dollars. Listen, I’m not against you. I’m not against corporates. I’m not against anything. But at what cost? That’s my question. At cost of patient? That you’re not. You’re gonna deny their insulin? After a doctor wrote a prescription after checking their entire lab report and certain drugs are not working. And now there’s someone saying - we’re just going to deny it!?My son is a second year resident doctor, radiation, and he said, Rwja. And he called me the other day saying, oh, I wrote this salve because it’s radiation… and insurance company denied it. I said, how can they do that?I’m a doctor. I wrote the prescription.I said, you know what? Welcome to my world.Do you remember every time daddy was coming back home from PBM rallies and PBM got to go? And he said, OK, now I understand what was your fight.29:40 It’s a disgrace what is happening to healthcare.I’m not against PBM, can they do their business, but they need to do business in my eyes properly in this. And listen, God knows those patients are getting discouraged and probably not buying insurance and they’re ending up at charitable pharmacy. Sonja: Right. And so we’re absolutely paying for it. We’re still paying just the people who should be paying art…the people who should be supporting… aren’t. And that’s just the sad facts right now. And I think it is challenging on so many levels and it feels almost like there’s nothing you can do. But like you, I have, I have eternal optimism.I have this eternal hope going on and I just feel like we have to keep fighting, we have to keep pushing, we have to keep educating. There’s still so many people that don’t even understand what a pharmacy benefit manager even is and does, or what an independently owned pharmacy is compared to a chain pharmacy. People have no idea. We’ve taken so much of healthcare for granted.And I think a big part of these conversations is also bringing those stories to light, letting people know about what’s really happening in our communities. And so I think there’s a lot we can do through sharing and through talking and communicating with our communities.Ritesh: Correct. I second that.Sonja: So… I do want to thank you for committing a portion of your book sales to NCPA Foundation and our mission as well. We’re excited to share with NCPA Convention attendees your book and tell people more about it. Where can listeners find your book if they want to buy it right now?Ritesh: So…A book is available on Amazon. You know, they can Google, they can search it, Pills to Purpose. You know, we have pharmacists… So if you put a word pills, P-I-L-L-S to purpose, and it will come up. It is available on Barnes and Noble and 40 other sites.And it is available in a 3 formats right now. It’s available in a paperback, hardcover, and in the e-book, all the proceeds, on this journey are going to charitable pharmacy and how I have committed, as sales goes on and everything, a portion will be going out to the NCPA Foundation. And we have other organizations that I have committed. So we need to sell those books.I need to tell all my fellow pharmacists; we have close to about 20,000 plus community pharmacists. If one pharmacist picks up one book, I guarantee you, I will say this again, I guarantee you every pharmacist out of those 13 chapters will be able to say, hey, I have done this for a patient.Well, I remember patient didn’t had money and they had to discount, so they took only two weeks supply instead of one month supply. I remember delivering this medication after 8 o’clock because my delivery boy had left and this happened. I remember checking. I remember blood pressure of this patient. There is a story on a still front page pharmacy saves patient’s life. So it’s not my story.It’s a story of a pharmacist that they can relate to themselves…33:09 And one book sold is one life sale. The $20 that you’re purchasing this book with, you know, the foundation gets about $10 to $12. And, you know, we can provide one month’s supply of two or three different kind of medication. They are life-saving medication like metformin, lisinopril, blood pressure medicine… pharmacy supplies.Sonja: Thank you, Ritesh, and thank you, Dr. Howe. Really appreciate your time today on the Script Your Future podcast.Ritesh: Thank you so much.Episode SummaryIn this inspiring episode of the Script Your Future Podcast, host Sonja welcomes Ritesh Shah, pharmacist and CEO of Legacy Pharmacy Group, and Dr. Joe Howe, President of Ritesh’s Charitable Pharmacy, to discuss Ritesh’s newly published autobiography “Pills to Purpose: A True Story of Love, Loss, and the Power of Service.” Ritesh shares how the devastating loss of his sister during a 2021 trip to India became the catalyst for creating New Jersey’s first and only charitable pharmacy, which has now dispensed nearly $2 million worth of medication to underserved patients who struggle to afford their prescriptions. Working alongside his wife Asha (also a pharmacist), Ritesh transformed his grief into a mission that operates without a cash register, serving patients with diabetes, hypertension, heart conditions, and mental health needs while also providing food pantry services.Dr. Howe recounts the remarkable story of how a 4:30 AM email during the COVID-19 pandemic led to the start of their extraordinary partnership, which began with school Covid testing and evolved into a comprehensive charitable healthcare mission. The episode explores how pharmacists can extend their impact beyond traditional prescription filling, the collaborative networks they’ve built with independent pharmacies throughout New Jersey, and Ritesh’s passionate advocacy against PBM practices that are closing independent pharmacies at an alarming rate. Ritesh demonstrates how authentic leadership rooted in community service creates sustainable business success, while his book—available on Amazon and other platforms with proceeds supporting the NCPA Foundation—encourages all pharmacists to recognize their power to transform lives through service that goes beyond the counter. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionWelcome to another compelling episode of the Script Your Future Podcast, where we explore the critical yet often overlooked world of pharmacy succession planning. Host Sonja Pagniano sits down with Donnie Calhoun, owner of Calhoun Wellness Pharmacy and valued NCPA Foundation Board of Trustees member, for an intimate conversation about the realities of pharmacy ownership, business evolution, and preparing for the future.This episode serves as the perfect complement to the foundation’s recent webinar with Jeff Harrell on community pharmacy succession planning best practices. Donnie's story illustrates both the challenges and opportunities that define independent pharmacy today.Whether you're a pharmacy student considering ownership, a current owner planning your exit strategy, or simply interested in the business side of community pharmacy, this conversation provides invaluable perspective on building, sustaining, and eventually transitioning a pharmacy practice.InterviewSonja Pagniano: Welcome to the Script Your Future Podcast hosted by the NCPA Foundation. I'm Sonja Pagniano, and today we're diving into one of the most critical yet often overlooked aspects of running a community pharmacy, succession planning. With me today is Donnie Calhoun, owner of Calhoun Wellness Pharmacy and a valued member of the NCPA Foundation Board of Trustees. Donnie brings both personal experience as a pharmacy owner and broader industry perspective from his board work. This episode will perfectly complement our upcoming webinar with NCPA Board President Jeff Harrell, where we'll explore what community pharmacies should consider when planning for the future. So, Donnie, thank you for joining us today. Let's start at the very beginning. Tell us about your journey into pharmacy ownership and how you got started… and what led you to the pharmacy you have today?Donnie Calhoun: Okay, Sonja, thanks so much for having me this morning and the opportunity to kind of share my journey. So when I graduated from pharmacy school back in 1987, I had never worked in a pharmacy. And when I first started pharmacy school, I had the fortunate ability to work for an independent pharmacy there in the hometown where I went to pharmacy school. And the entire four years I was in school, I worked there. And I guess I got my core belief in independent pharmacy, you know, from that experience. And when I graduated, unfortunately, there were no independent pharmacy jobs available. So I went to work for the next best thing, in my opinion, which was a regional chain. So back in the late 80s and early 90s, there were regional chains all across America. And in Alabama, we had two. We had Big B Drugs and we had Harco Discount Drugs.Harco Discount Drugs was formed by Mr. Jimmy Harrison, and his family.He started out with one independent pharmacy in downtown Tuscaloosa. And as the Alabama football team got great success, so did he with his with his pharmacy. And so I went to work for them and I worked for them for six years. And the first year that I worked for them, I also completed the very first APhA community pharmacy residency program.Sonja: Oh, no kidding.Donnie: Yeah, at that time it was a pilot program. And there were only six of us from all across the country that went into the residency program. So Samford University, Harco Drug, and APhA, they were the ones that were involved in the residency. So after working for Harco in various areas for six years. I managed a store. And one of the things that was unique about Harco is that the pharmacists were actually the managers of the store. So we were trained to hire people. We were trained to merchandise. We were trained to market. We helped a lot with payroll. So we just didn't go in and fill prescriptions. We actually managed the entire pharmacy.And which was a lot of fun getting ready for Christmas and Halloween and all those fun events that do in the drugstore. So I think that also helped prepare me quite a bit for for ownership. So in 1991, I had the opportunity to buy a local community pharmacy in Anniston, Alabama. One of the positions I had filled when I was on working for Harco was store manager of a Harco pharmacy in Anniston, Alabama. And I got to meet the local independent owners. We had a local countywide pharmacy association where we had quarterly meetings. And so we would get to fellowship with each other and get to know each other. And so I had made it known during some of those conversations that I was very interested in owning a pharmacy one day. And out of the blue, I got a phone call that said, hey, the first question I was asked by Mr. Gann, first question he says, “did you like living in Anniston?”Kind of an odd question you would think, but it was an important question.And I said, “I love living in Anniston when I was there”… So it's a great town, great community. And so second question was, “do you still want to own a drugstore?” And he told me later on that if I had said no, I didn't really like living in Anniston, I would have never had the opportunity to answer the second question.Because to an owner, it's really important that if someone is going to buy your pharmacy, that they're going to take care of your patients and your customers because they patients and customers become part of your family and you want someone to care about them and you want someone to care about that community that you're in.I was very fortunate to be able to go into a pharmacy that had been there since 1964.Mr. Gann opened it from scratch in 1964. I was the second owner. And… I guess over the course of the next 20 years, we opened pharmacies in different locations. We bought pharmacies in different locations.At one time, we had five retail locations, five retail pharmacies, three home medical equipment companies. We had a home infusion company. We had a warehouse, we had 67 employees, we had home office, and it really got big. And one of the, I guess one of the mistakes I would… that I would admit to that I made during the course of my journey is that I never wanted to give up being a pharmacist.And I never really wanted to give up from being that healthcare provider that took care of people. So I never wanted to get out from behind the counter. So I'd always hire people to manage the company. And over the years, in the early, late nineties, mid-nineties, there was a pharmacist shortage. Pharmacists were awful hard to keep. Because the chains were giving pharmacists BMWs to sign on with them and work for them.Sonja: Well, they're still giving bonuses and things like that. Donnie: Yeah, but I mean, you know, a BMW, come on. I mean, and you know, we heard stories that they were given $20,000 sign on bonuses and things like that. And it was very difficult for someone who just owned a couple of stores to be able to compete with that. Sonja: OkayDonnie: So we consolidated stores and sold stores. And eventually, we've ended up with just one pharmacy. In 2012, we actually quit doing retail pharmacy. We went into compounding pharmacy. We actually started compounding in 1992. We had a physician call us, an OB-GYN, who said he had a patient who had two miscarriages, and the family really desperately wanted to have a child, and he had read a study about progesterone depositories. He said, I want to know if we can make those. And I said, I don't know- I'll find out.So I became a member of PCCA and went out to Houston. I got trained. I bought the material, bought the drugs, bought the equipment. We made the depositories. And I think that little girl is about 40 something years old now. Sonja: Oh, my gosh!Donnie: So it was successful.And then later on, we found out that that patient was actually his nurse.And so that is what got us into compounding. And we still compound progesterone spots for that physician today. I mean, he sends prescriptions every day for patients because they work. The next thing that happened was these mothers who had these new babies would call us and say, can you help me, you know, with my baby. Nothing the doctor's given me is helping the diaper rash. Can you make something for a diaper rash? And so we said, yeah.So it kind of started out that everything we did in the pharmacy was based on patient need. You know, a child who won't take their medicine because it tastes bad. You know, we've made it taste better.And so that has always been our philosophy with our compounding practice, is that we're here to take care of a patient and whatever medical needs that they have that can't be met by a commercial product or can't be met in another way.So that's our job. That's what we do each and every day now. And so in 2012, we started doing that full time and kind of left the retail, let's fill a lot of prescription space to being really more, you know, you've heard of a, and I'll say this because, you know, being on the board, one of our fundraisers is a whiskey raffle.We had one last year and they're all small batches, specially crafted just for that connoisseur. Well, that's kind of what we do. Everything we do is in small batches just for one person. So we're not making big batches for the whole world. We're making it for one person.So that's what I really love about what I do today. I will also say that for the last several months, I've been working as a staff pharmacist for a small mom and pop pharmacy in a really, really small town, and it's really brought me back to the early days when I owned a store.They lost their pharmacist, and so luckily I was able to go and fill in a few days for them. So it's been fun kind of getting back to my roots. But I will say one more thing. I will say one more thing. It's very, very important.And I think every owner would probably tell you this.10:35 We're only as good as the person who stands behind us.And I have to thank my wife, Cindy, for being behind me each and every step of the way. So it's a partnership. I mean, she's my partner in the pharmacy and she's half owner. I mean, she owns half the pharmacy.Sonja: Absolutely.Donnie: And a lot of times people forget that.10:54 And I just want to make everybody aware that we don't get here by ourselves. You know, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Mr. Gann. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my wife. And the people that's helped me through the years. So I think that's important, you know, for everybody out there considering ownership, you're not going to do it by yourself. There's a lot of people out there wanting to help you.Sonja: Absolutely. And I know, I know you are one of those people. I know you're one of those people that steps up and mentors the young professionals and encourages them to follow their dreams and their passions. And it is so needed, especially in this critical time in community pharmacy where so many people are just fighting to survive. And it sounds like you have personal experience too with some of that, like some of the challenges that owners experience that you're not necessarily prepared for. No one's like teaching you a class on that.Donnie: One of the things I have judged is the student business plan competition that NCPA has. Every year, the Pruitt Schutte business plan competition that the foundation is involved with [funds].And one of the things I'd always like to throw in is the students and a lot of the students will say, we're going to be beside this busy doctor's practice and we're going to be doing all this. And I always like to throw in, well, what happens if the doctor's office moves?Have you thought about that?What happens? Because things can be going great. And then all of a sudden, the highway moves, you know, or the doctors move. I mean, and that kind of happened to me in my practice.We had a local family practice group had a office beside us in the hospital, bought all the regional offices and consolidated them into one practice at the hospital. So the doctor's office, we had there for 30 years - overnight, it went away.And so what do you do? Right?And so a lot happens, you know, and you've got to kind of be prepared, you know, for that. And you've got to have some contingency plans.At least you need to think about what would you do if the worst thing that could happen happened, you know?Sonja: So obviously, Cindy is like that person in your life that kind of keep things together. So how do you guys start having those kinds of conversations? I mean, there are all those different experiences you've had. I'm sure you've had difficult conversations with each other about like, well, what are our next steps? What do you recommend owners do in starting that conversation, you know, with their partners or with their spouse, you know, who's heavily involved in the business?Donnie: of the things we try to do, if it's going to be something from like a product or service offering, we try to make sure we get staff input because a lot of times they're going to be dealing with the fallout from it, whether somebody's unhappy with it. So, and you know, if it's something we're thinking about offering, say like delivery service, you know, maybe changing it from delivery to our own delivery service to like a DoorDash or something like that, we would want to get a customer survey.What do you guys think about that? Would you be happy with us changing and having someone else deliver instead of Mr. John, our delivery driver?But I think the hard conversations come in where you're going to, say… switch wholesalers. And you've been with a wholesaler for a long time and you've gotten to become friends with a salesperson. But from a financial standpoint, it's a great deal and you have to look at the money you're going to save versus the money you lose and you have to consider you know, all those friendships you've developed over the course of the year, and is it really worth it?And so it's always good to have somebody to bounce those things off of. Because in our line of work, and you've heard this, pharmacy is a small world. It's a small, small world.And, you know, everybody in pharmacy knows just about everybody else. You know, there are limited numbers of suppliers that you can buy your drugs from. And so I think you have to really think through it.You really have to have those discussions with, you know, not only your partners, whether it be other pharmacists who are your partners, whether it be, you know, a local business person who's your partner. You know, you have to have those conversations.I had a store one time and one of my really good friends who owns a local car dealership was a partner of mine in this pharmacy. And believe it or not, it was out of state. It was in Oregon. And he and I became partners in the pharmacy and we would go out together. But he knew nothing about pharmacy. And so the years that we were part, we were only partners for about a year.And, uh, I would have to teach him everything there was about pharmacy, but, but he challenged me on a lot of things because he came from entirely different industry. And so having someone who's not as engaged in our industry that you trust, I think that you can bounce ideas off of, um, call CPA, you can call our foundation, you know, we can get you a mentor to talk to.Someone who's maybe been there, done that, and that can give you the confidence that the decision that you made is correct or can give you alternatives to maybe a decision you've made that you can go back and change your mind.So I think those kind of things are out there. I think that's a big thing is pharmacy owners have to stay adaptable, right? There will always be changes that come up. There will always be things that you have to kind of overcome and get used to in the process. But I think it's important to remember that long term because I mean, for some people, sure, ownership is maybe a small trajectory of their life, but for other people, it can be a 40 plus year experience.And so-Sonja: Oh, absolutely. At what point in that timeline do you think it's good to think about what's gonna happen next for your pharmacy?Donnie: So I think there are a couple of key spots in your career that you you have to make decisions and you know and and it's what I would say a life altering decision you know one is deciding to go to pharmacy school two is deciding what career path you want to take whether it be um community pharmacy Hospital pharmacy or different kind of pharmacy and then you know um when you graduate you have all debt um and so it's like how am I how am I going to service that debt I need a job so a lot of times people take um and the first job that is offered to them, or they take a job that is, you know, very close to where they currently live.I try to tell students about job placement is - go somewhere where you're going to be happy. And when you make that decision you're going to spend more time at work when you're home. So make sure you're happy wherever you're at and also about where you live. If you want to live at the beach, try to find a job, you know, at the beach. But I think that, you know, once you get into the workforce, then it becomes about what kind of practice do you want? Are you the kind of person that wants a structured practice with lots of rules and you know, so it's structured so you don't have to make a decision on your own, that decisions are made, you know, for you.Are you the kind of person that wants to go out and make your own decisions and have your own practice? A pharmacist [Kirk] one time that came to work for me right out of college, and his wife was a drug rep for Pfizer. And, you know, she was making good money. Kirk worked for me. And he came to me after a couple of years and said, hey, I've got an opportunity to open a pharmacy beside a grocery store.What do you think?And I told him, I thought it was a great opportunity.And so Kirk worked that pharmacy by himself for like two years without a salary. And they lived on his wife's salary. And so they still had this lifestyle that they had in college while he worked that pharmacy, and then after a while, that pharmacy became successful enough; his wife was able to quit. He was able to hire employees. And now I think Kirk has three pharmacies and he's doing very, very well.And so, you know, you if you can live on the salary that you had in pharmacy school and have that same kind of lifestyle, then absolutely, you can probably get into it. So you can, you know, you can go in as a junior partner with someone that may be looking to retire in a few years.So those are the kind of things that are out there, you know, but it has to be that. I guess the timing has to be right. It has to be that that right opportunity that that comes along. And the way you find those opportunities is by getting involved and attending those those community meetings.Remember I said early on that, you know, we had a local uh Pharmacy Association here in the county and that I went to those meetings I met those Independents if you don't go anywhere to meet anybody then you're not going to have those opportunities that's why it's important you know excuse me to attend like the national convention the NCPA meeting attend your State Pharmacy Association meeting and you know to if you have a local pharmacy meeting you know go to it meet these guys you knowThere's an old adage in pharmacy that we're all competitors, but in reality, we're not.We're not competitors.I'm not really a competitor with the chain stores.I'm really not competitor with other independents.That's a mindset that has been put on people from the business, I guess, community.21:13 But really and truly, we're all in the business of taking care of people. And, you know, and you want people to treat you the way you want to be treated. So if you do that, you're going to become friends with those people.I mean, you know, I'm colleagues with all of the chain pharmacists in our area, with all the independents. If they need something, they know they can call me and I'm going to do everything I can to help them. My pharmacist that runs our compounding pharmacy, Julianne, she moonlights for Walmart on the weekends sometimes.I mean, you know, we're in the business of helping people.And so I think if you are looking to get into ownership, you know, try to expand your horizons and you have to meet owners somewhere. Even if you think you want to open a pharmacy from scratch, you know, and be on your own, you know, think about what your monthly resources have to be, how much you have to make a month to pay your bills. You know, maybe it's possible you can move back in with mom and dad for a little bit, you know, and live under their roof while you open a pharmacy somewhere. You know, there was a time, I will say this, and this is one of those conversations that Cindy and I had, when in 2012, we decided that we were going to get into the compounding only business that we both said that, well, we don't know how this is going to work because all we've done was just really community pharmacy with a compounding component doing compounding only.We said, well, we may lose everything we have. We may have to move back in with your mom and dad at our age. But, you know, we felt like we were compelled to do it, that it was, you know, that it was something that we should have done a long time ago. But, you know, it's, you know, scary to step out on that ledge sometimes.And and we've been in the the profession for a long time. We've been in the industry for a long time, and it's like we're first to make a huge major change.23:10 And that's another thing, like you asked me, how do you do that? How do you make a major change? And so it takes a leap of faith sometimes.And I will tell you, that was really good for us, for Cindy and I, when we decided to do compounding only. It took away a lot of the stress stressors that we had in community pharmacy, you know, and that big stressor that you have is paying that drug bill.I mean, that drug bill is due regardless. And, you know, and you're having to wait on your money to come in from the insurance companies and if they're late or if they delay or whatever, it messes up your cash flow. And so the financial component is stressful no matter which business that you're in, it doesn't really matter. But you really have to, you know, consider that I think a lot of times when you're considering making a major purchase, or you're considering, you know, going out on your own and opening up your own practice.So if you've got, you know, I like to tell students, if you've got, you know, mom and dad's got lots of money, you don't have anything to worry about just go out and open one, right? And, you know, you still have a lot to worry about if you do that.Well, you know, but…You know, but there are ways that you can do it. You know, you just, you have to be frugal, I think, in the beginning. And, but it's that way in every profession. I mean, when you just graduate, I mean, the only people I know that graduate college and go off and drive Ferraris or college football players, maybe a basketball players, but now high school players are starting to do that now, but, you know, with the NIL and everything in college football,But there are opportunities out there, but you got to go and meet people. I think that's the bottom line. You got to go out there and meet people and talk to people.Sonja: So to your point about taking a leap of faith. So obviously people going into ownership are taking a huge leap of faith. But I think so are owners who are allowing someone to take on what they've built in their business. So how do those owners who are taking a chance on someone, transitioning their pharmacy to them, how should they process that leap of faith? What does that look like? Do you have any advice for those people?Donnie: Yeah, so every situation is different. I will say that when I bought my pharmacy from Mr. Gann, Mr. Gann told me he was ready to retire, that he would work with me for 30 days, and then he was done. And he worked with me for 30 days to introduce me to customers and get me acclimated. 30 days later, I didn't see him for 10 years. I mean, he was out there. So there are some situations where you, and we'll just talk about buying the pharmacy outright. There's some situations where you buy the pharmacy outright, but then the owner's got a cavity out in there. He still wants to work one day a week…he doesn't want to step away. So he goes from being the owner to being a staff pharmacist, and he works one day a week. If it's a busy store, he goes from being the owner to maybe a part-time pharmacist, and he works two to three days a week and every other weekend. I've seen that situation before as well.And that's usually a situation where you have a young pharmacist that's worked for you for several years and and you intend on selling them the whole thing and and all of a sudden well not overnight you're not the owner anymore he's the owner and now you're the employee so you've seen that work and that's that's really a you know I would call that a father-son father-daughter type relationship where you know you trust each other and you're happy with each other and it's a family type operation not a literal sense but you know it but umBut I think that when you start thinking about bringing on a junior partner, there are a lot of different ways to do that. There are different mechanisms.27:18 Most of your pharmacy cooperatives have resources to help you figure out what's the best model for your pharmacy from the owner's standpoint.You know, we all…We all, when we reach a certain age, and I will say this, it's hard. It's very, very hard to leave something you've done for a long, long time when you care about people. You know, when your reason for being there is really not the money, and your reason for being there is the community and the people that you take care of, it's hard to step away.I think that's why pharmacists work in their profession probably longer than anybody else. I mean, you know, I don't know a whole lot of pharmacists that retire young.I mean, Jeff [Harrell] might do that. Jeff might be one of the few I know that retired. But for most of us, you know, we love what we do. And, you know, I think the hard part for us comes in when things change in the pharmacy, we've got to get a new pharmacy computer system. I don't really know if I want to learn how to do that, or you get a new robot.Oh, that's new technology. I'm not sure that I want to learn how to do that.Sonja: It's so common. I hear it all the time.Donnie: It is. I mean, you know, so technology is a huge issue because we get comfortable using what we've always used and the old adage is, well, that's how we've always done it, you know, and that doesn't always work in the way today's world works. That was one of the reasons I was excited maybe to get back into the community pharmacy and help them out a little bit to see what technology has changed in the community pharmacy and I'll be honest with you, I was surprised. One of the biggest surprises for me, this is a little off script, but was in the old days, all the prescriptions walked in the door. They were called in on the telephone. They came in on the fax machine.90% of the prescriptions today come over the computer. You know, they're all electronically prescribed. So that took a lot of the work away.You know, having to manually input everything is so much quicker now to fill a regular prescription. But, you know, I think from an owner's standpoint…You know, it's hard to find that right person and, you know, to get that person in that you trust, that you feel like you can turn over your operation to them. I've got a young lady that I hope is going to end up with our pharmacy one of these days, and we're just waiting on her to tell us she's ready. And, you know, that's the other thing.The big issue that she has and a lot of I guess kids who have been out of school 15, 10, 15 years have is their student loans. I mean, pharmacy schools have become so expensive that they graduate with mountains of debt. And so they're having to take their money and pay student loans instead of buying your pharmacy with them.Sonja: Well, and I was just talking to someone recently and they were talking about how they're getting frustrated because some of them are also taking jobs with like nonprofit hospitals so they can work in that pharmacy and qualify for public service loan forgiveness. And then it's like they have to wait like 10 years for that all to get forgiven before they'll even consider working for an independent. And I understand that frustration, but at the same time, like the issue is with the exorbitant cost that education is and not with students taking advantage of these opportunities.Donnie: You're absolutely right. And that is something that I think as a society, we're gonna have to address in the future somehow, some way. And don't get me wrong, I mean, we all love our schools, we all love our universities.We think that there's a great opportunities there for education and learning, but there has to be a way to, you know, for someone to get the education less expensively, or to have some way to have some type of loan forgiveness so that these kids can get involved, because what happens, when you spend half your career paying for your student loan, then when kids are making decisions about what they want to do with their life, then maybe they decide, well, I don't know if I want to be a pharmacist because if I'm going to work 30 years, I've got to work for 15 just to pay my education off. So that means really, I've only got 15 years in my career that, you know, I can earn a decent living.And so it is a huge, huge problem. And, you know, and I really don't know how to address it. You know, I will say, that there are a lot of innovative pharmacists across the country. One of our board members, Bill Osborne, is one of those. They have a path to ownership in his group where you forego part of your salary. So you learn to live on a little bit less initially and you take the extra part would go toward ownership.And then the longer you work, the more ownership you have until eventually you own the whole thing. So there are some ways that are very innovative that are out there. I think Jeff Harrell has the same kind of program that are out there to help these pharmacists you'll get into it.But again, I mean, it all depends upon the lifestyle that that person wants to have. I mean, you know, is it someone maybe who's single? It's a lot easier for maybe a single person that lives in an apartment maybe to manage the finances better than someone who has three kids and a mortgage and three car payments and that kind of thing.So, you know, every situation is different. You know, sometimes owners give bonuses based upon performance. So if if you are a young pharmacist, you can go in there and you take those sales numbers and double them, then, you know, part of that bonus could be ownership.So there are lots of different ways. The pharmacy wholesalers, the drug wholesalers, the pharmacy co-ops are all our national associations. If there is somebody out there wanting to get into ownership, there are people out there that want to help them. And from the owner's standpoint now, so we've talked about a little bit from the employee or the student standpoint.So from the owner's standpoint, you've worked your whole life to create something. You've got a huge patient population that you care about. And how do you just turn that over? And with consolidation that's happened in our industry, you know, you're always led to believe that your business isn't worth anything, right?So it's like, well, how do I really know what my business is worth? And do I really tell people how many prescriptions a day I'm filling? You know, are they going to take that information and use it against me?You know, am I going to share my information? And next thing I know, there's a brand new chain store across the street from me.I mean, so there's a lot of fear. Yeah, there's a real concern. I think that's one of the reasons that the NCPA digest really helps a lot. It's anonymous that pharmacists can send in their data and that you get a sense of what the average pharmacy in a certain population area is actually doing.I can't tell you how many times over the years somebody would come in and go, Hey, do I need to go get stitches in this cut? Yeah, you need to go to the emergency reg, like right now. Pharmacists all over the country have experienced that. And so, I think that as healthcare continues to evolve, there's always gonna be a place for the pharmacist And, you know, and I think that having your own practice model. Whether that be a practice model with a retail component where you're dispensing commercial products as a community pharmacy.I think that's great, but I think that when I think about independent pharmacy practice. I think about, mom and pop drugstore, but I also think about, those innovative new practices like our practice, compounding pharmacy. So we do wellness screenings, we do immunizations. We do a biometric screening program for the state of Alabama, which is a preemptive look at keeping people healthy.We do sterile and non-sterile compounding. We do pharmacy consultations with the patients all the time. So, I mean, we're like a community healthcare center all in itself. And a lot of times patients come to us and they go, well, my friend told me about this that you're doing and does it require prescription? Well, yes, ma'am, it does require prescription, but if you're a doctor, that's not interested in helping you with this, we have doctors who are. So we refer patients to doctors all the time. And so we really work well with the healthcare team in our community.And I guess at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. It's about community healthcare, and it's about being part of that community and taking care of your friends and neighbors. And there are a lot of different ways to do that from an independent practice.Sonja: Well, I really enjoyed our conversation today, Donnie. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom and experience with us.Donnie: Oh, you're welcome. I call it trial and error usually, right?Sonja: Oh, stop. Where can people find you if they connect with you?Donnie: They can reach me. My e-mail is [email protected]. Our pharmacy website is www.calhouncompounding.com. I'm accessible at either one of those places anytime, or you can actually reach me through the NCPA Foundation as well.Sonja: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us today.Donnie: All right. Thanks, Sonja. Y'all have a great day. Bye.Episode SummaryIn this insightful conversation, Donnie Calhoun shares his remarkable 37-year journey in pharmacy, from completing the first-ever APHA community pharmacy residency program to building a successful independent practice that evolved from traditional retail to specialized compounding. Starting with his unexpected entry into ownership in 1991 through community networking, Donnie candidly discusses the realities of pharmacy entrepreneurship - including the challenges of competing with chain pharmacies, the critical importance of having strong partnerships (particularly with his wife and business partner Cindy), and the strategic decision to pivot to compounding-only services in 2012. The conversation addresses pressing industry issues like the student debt crisis that prevents young pharmacists from considering ownership, explores innovative succession planning models, and emphasizes the evolving role of independent pharmacies as comprehensive community healthcare centers. Throughout, Donnie provides practical advice for aspiring owners while highlighting the emotional and financial complexities of transitioning pharmacy practices, making this episode essential listening for anyone interested in the business side of community pharmacy. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionIn this inspiring episode of Script Your Future, we interview Dr. Sabrina Russ, a dedicated participant in NCPA Foundation's Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program. With over 25 years of pharmacy experience, Dr. Russ shares her evolution from chain pharmacy work to independent consulting, and now to opening her own collaborative pharmacy practice in Columbia, South Carolina. Her story demonstrates the power of persistence, mentorship, and community support in overcoming the challenges of pharmacy ownership. From navigating skeptical bankers to finding the right contractors, Dr. Russ offers candid insights into the realities of becoming an independent pharmacy owner in today's challenging healthcare landscape.InterviewSonja Pagniano: Hi, this is Sonja Pagniano with the Script Your Future podcast. I'm so excited today to be joined by Dr. Sabrina Russ. Dr. Sabrina Russ is part of the NCPA Foundation Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program. The Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program is a free year-long application-based program supporting and encouraging independent pharmacy ownership among individuals who historically have not had equal opportunity to attain pharmacy ownership. These participants gain access to pharmacy owner mentors, webinars, and self-directed activities focused on essential business principles as they relate to pharmacy ownership. We are so excited to have you here today, Dr. Russ. Where are you calling in from?Dr. Sabrina Russ: Hi, it's a pleasure to be here. I am calling from Columbia, South Carolina.Sonja: And how is it down there right now? I know we're in the middle of July. So very hot.Dr. Russ: Yes. Thank you.Sonja: Have you always lived in that area? What initially drew you to pharmacy and being where you are now?Dr. Russ: Yeah. So actually, my dad was military. So originally from North Carolina, still have a lot of family there. I was born at the military base. There's Fort Bragg, but I've got a lot of family that still live in that Raleigh area. So being military, we traveled all over the world. But my dad got stationed at Fort Jackson, South Carolina as a drill sergeant back in the mid 80s. So I've been here in South Carolina ever since then. So this has been home for over 30 plus years.So my journey really started because just growing up as a child, I really was very fascinated about how I can keep my family healthy naturally without medication. I didn't think about the connection of medication at that time, but I always wanted to see how I can keep my family healthy. And then also learning about how I can use, how we use food as medicine. I was fascinated about that aspect of it.And so… but then didn't really think much of that part of it. Just went on and said, okay, going to pharmacy school, I was like, well, I like the science behind it, being able to help people. I know that sounds really cliche, you know, how you get into it, but you know, being out of school over 25 years, just letting pharmacists or newer pharmacists coming out know that your career will actually, it will change. It will evolve.You know, being in my own practice as a solo practitioner, as a consultant, which started like in the early 2000s, I just wanted to figure out ways that I could just work with people one-on-one, how to teach them about medication safety. And I was seeing that a lot when I worked in the chains, grocery store chain at the time when I first got out of pharmacy school. And so I felt like I really want to be able to help people and talk with them more one-on-one without feeling rushed. Because sometimes in a retail setting, I mean, it's so busy now, busier now than it was back then. But I was like, maybe I can figure out a way to work with people one-on-one.So I connected with my state pharmacy association and they connected me with another pharmacist who was doing, he had an independent pharmacy, but he was also doing consulting. OK, in addition. So he became my mentor and he took me under his wings and he was a geriatric pharmacist. So he's like, you know, I really think you should consider getting some additional certification, becoming board certified in geriatrics. So I did that. And then I just started this meeting with family and friends about medication concerns they had and it just started from there meeting more people interacting with providers and things like that who will want me to sit down and go through their medications because they just didn't have time this is like we're talking like what 2007, 2008 at this point and then I finally collaborated with the family practice office that I'm with now and about 17 years now. And so we've really had that collaboration. But yeah, so it just really evolved over time.And I even started before I even got into pharmacy school, just going back to my journey, I started in an independent pharmacy. That was like my first pharmacy job. I worked at McDonald's for a couple of years when I was in college, pre-pharmacy. And then I was like, I want to get some more experience in pharmacy. And I was hired on as a student intern in an independent community pharmacy. They no longer exist today but they had the soda fountain all of the traditional what we would think of as the old school - yeah absolutely so that's kind of where I got my, you know, introduction to the pharmacy space and in into independent community pharmacy at that time so that's a little bit about my journeySonja: Wow. Yeah. You're so right, though. I think a lot of pharmacists are currently evolving in their journey and they're all realizing that actually the scope of what you can do with your pharmacy license is… there's a lot of stuff you can get into. And depending on where your passion lies, depending on the people that are around you that you can support, it is actually really exciting. But it's a matter of following that path wherever it is leading you, right?Dr. Russ: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it was more of, it's like thinking outside the box now, even being an independent consultant pharmacist… The way that I see a lot of the younger pharmacists that are coming out, I say maybe within the past five to 10 years that are coming out and they're so innovative. So it's more open now, you know, to see more pharmacists branch into that space than when I started out, you know, in the early mid 2000s. So, which is exciting. But absolutely there, you know, your pharmacy degree is really a foundation to other things.Sonja: Yeah. Well, tell us about what led you to discovering our Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program and what made you decide to apply to it?Dr. Russ: Well, I actually started attending the McKesson NCPA Ownership Workshops. I attended three of them. And this is like, I think it was like 2017, 2018, and then the virtual online course that was in 2020. But some of the earlier ones, the first or the second one, they will always do like a questionnaire and say how they can improve. And so I was like, man, you know, you're attending those courses. It's like power packed in those three days. And it's so much information. And it can be, you know, seem a little overwhelming. That's why I went back so many times.I always recommend that, oh, you know, if you have like a mentor, maybe pharmacists who, you know, that are owners that they can come back and talk with us or have them as speakers, you know, in addition to the professionals to share their own personal journeys and things like that. And I even tried connecting either the 2017 or 2018 workshop. I tried to connect with the independent pharmacy owner and, of course, busy. They're so busy. They're all busy. But we connected briefly. And so she encouraged me, you know, along the journey and things like that. and sharing with her path. But I would always put down, can you guys do something, have those mentors or come back, those pharmacy owners come back and talk. I think that would be very beneficial.So around 2020, whenever the first cohort came about, for the ownership program. I can't remember. It was like 2021 or 2022, but I had gotten an email because I stayed on the email list. And so, so I ended up and I said, this would be really, really good. You know? And so I didn't, I think I missed the deadline or something like that. And that's why I didn't apply and then just got busy with everything else. And then I think I got another email again. And then that's when I just said, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and apply for this. So, Very glad I did.Sonja: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear more about your experience. So you're part of a select cohort. We invite up to 20 pharmacists annually to be chosen for this program. What's the experience been like so far? So you've had the in-person ownership workshop experience. How has this experience been? I know we're a little bit over halfway now. So I'd love to hear from you about that.Dr. Russ: Yeah, I think it's been great. You know, it's, I love how they split it up where you have the mentor, who is the pharmacy owner that comes and talks with us, and they're just open for like an hour, hour and a half or so, just the questions and... I love that part of it because and then the fact they're so open to share as well. You don't have to worry about because it's not a CE. You don't have to worry about, oh, I can't say this thing. You know, so I like that. I love that part of it, too. So I like the fact that these pharmacy owners are taking time out of their busy schedules to talk with us. And it says a lot. And it's very encouraging because hopefully I would like to do that as well. Once, you know, I get open and everything back because it's encouraging to see like you can make it regardless of what your obstacles are. You can make it. And then just to hear the ups and the downs of the journey. Not just focusing on the starlight, oh, I've arrived, but just being able to ask them those real questions like, “What are some of the challenges that you had to overcome?” “What sacrifices did you have to make?” “What barriers did you have to overcome to get to where you are?” So I like having that personal time with them.And then also how they pair up the actual industry professionals as well to ask us or to answer various questions and do their PowerPoint presentations, especially the one we just had. It was really good. Oh, man. But they didn't feel rushed. Like they went on and continued. In spite of a lot of the questions, they still finished their PowerPoint presentation. So they didn't shortchange us. They made sure that we got everything we needed. I was like, oh, man, I know it's going a little longer, but they might. But it was so valuable. Cause they were like, I think it was like a little under 15. We were already at time and I'm like, oh man, I didn't put it off. Like there's still 15 more things. Yeah. Sonja: They committed to it. Dr. Russ: They did. They committed and all of them have been really, really great.And I like the fact that they allow us to get their contact information. And as well as the pharmacy owners as well, because that really allows you to go ahead to reach out to someone. I think it was dealing with the one with the we talked about the insurance. pharmacies and the insurance liability insurance that topic I had to reach out to that person so it's really nice to actually say hey I'm one of the you know the members of pathways to pharmacy ownership and that I because… I know they get bombarded various professionals the pharmacy owners they get bombarded but the fact that they share the information the pharmacy owners share their cell phone numbers email addresses you know, the professionals share their, you know, emails and phone numbers. That makes a difference because, you know, you can get lost in the shuffle and I'm sure they get bombarded all the time with questions. So having that one-on-one personal connection with them is very, very vital.Sonja: Yeah, I think in one of my last podcast episodes, the person I interviewed [Jay Phipps]; he talked about how, even though pharmacy owners are all over the US, you could pick up the phone and talk to someone like in a totally different state. And they’re willing to help you with whatever it is. And I do think there's something really unique about that in the profession where everyone's ready to collaborate and help out. And I think you can't be scared either of reaching out, you know?Dr. Russ: Right. It's good to put yourself out there too. That's true. Very true. And I've still got many that I got to call and reach out to. I'm like, okay, I'm going to come back to this person. But yeah, absolutely.Sonja: Well, speaking about mentorship, who's someone that you've maybe connected with as a mentor during this that's been beneficial to your journey?Dr. Russ: You know I have I've got a few people that I've been reaching out to and I'm still reaching out and on that journey of finding I guess it's more like maybe the right fit because like I say everybody's a lot of pharmacy owners are so busy and things like that but I do have a couple of people about three different contacts currently. One person he used to own his own pharmacy but he works for another company now and then the other two individuals have their own. One is in long term care and one is an independent community pharmacy. So I do have some local resources. It's a matter of, you know, getting that time in with them and working together. But I do have that. But I am searching still searching as well for some more mentors because I'm learning that is, you know, one person doesn't have it all.Sonja: It's kind of like a village, like you're making your own village of independent pharmacy.Dr. Russ: Yeah, exactly. It is like a village. You have one that's more expertise in one area than another. So that's what I'm learning. So especially what I like about the Pathways Ownership Program is that it's really helped me to see not just learning the different areas like PCSO, different topics and stuff, but It's like, oh, I really need to key in on that more. Maybe I can find someone that can really just take me on their wings and kind of educate me more. Because it's almost like you need to have some kind of foundation. I think one of the speakers might have said that the other night. You need to know have a general knowledge of the various topics, dealing with contracting and PSAOs. And so it's almost like by the time you go and talk to them, you need to have a foundation and not just expect them to be like, can you explain this to me? Sonja: Like the foundations of like a Google search on PSAOs.Dr. Russ: Yes. Yes. To have understanding and find a pharmacy, a pharmacy owner that can help you with that before you make that contact, or whatever, whatever the case may be, but that's what I'm on. Cause even with the insurance part that we had talked about when the person came and talked about that and I was like man I feel like I need a template so I can kind of go through and understand each section of you know your insurance policy and go back through the video again you know I feel I need to study that part and make sure I understand it because nobody could you have to be able to be in a position where you're going to be making some very important decisionsAnd you don't want to be reliable, like on someone who just reviews them for legal purposes, because just because something is legal, doesn't make it the best fit either. So like to your point, you having your own good understanding of those topics is so key. And I hope that we're, we're providing that information in the program too, to kind of help at least guide you to resources.Sonja: Yeah. Yeah, that's the key. Yeah. Having those resources available is the key because and I hope so, too, that the participants and going forward that not just take this all in as a bunch of information, as a bunch of knowledge, but really use it as an assessment tool to kind of gauge where you are, where you need to improve on. And especially if you didn't have anyone that you might maybe a family member that could have took you under their wings and taught you or somebody you might have grew up working in an independent pharmacy or as a student and somebody kind of, you know, mentioned you along the way. I didn't have that. Sonja: So you're someone like that. Dr. Russ: Like this is just fresh, fresh, you know, all new for me. And it's taken so many— It's taken a lot of years because it's a lot of years of preparation. You know, you can't just show up one day, but it's so much to be learned. And so I do hope that, you know, current members of the program and going forward, that they really do use this as an assessment to kind of gauge, okay, hmm…I'm a little deficient in this area. I need to take time to really…yeah, yeah, absolutely.Sonja: That's very insightful. I'm glad you shared that. It really gives me a bit more perspective too on how we can also ask the question to the participants of like, how has this been valuable to you? And making sure that the way we pose the question gives us a good assessment of that. Because I think sometimes we're not good at asking questions. Dr. Russ: I think we're not, you're right. Yeah. Because that's… it's very important to kind of gauge where you are because we're all, we're all inundated with so much information all the time, but this program, you know, you all are giving us this information who pharmacists that are vetted, you know, professionals that are vetted. So it's like, we're trusting, you know, the information that we're getting that is a good resource for us because it's not easy… because I must say before this program and you know I also work with the consultant company as well a pharmacy broker company and if it wasn't for you know you guys and a company like this one I'm a part of. I tried it on my own pharmacy ownership and - oh my gosh - my own bank for, I mean, all the stories, it was a hot mess, a nightmare. You think, you think you're just sitting there, even though going through all those workshops, you're sitting there getting information. Oh yeah, I got it. It's not that easy. It is not that easy. No. Sonja: When you apply it to real world, like situations. Dr. Russ: When you get it, when you start walking it out, like when I tried to some years ago, try to like meet with the bank, trying to like do my own, you know, it's like my, some of the different like business plans and things like that on my own. And — eh mm— it was horrible because it makes a difference being industry specific.You know, when you work with someone who knows your industry and I'm telling you with…When I was trying to meet with bankers and things like that. And it was, you have to do so much explaining. They don't understand the industry. Sonja: They don't understand the business at all. That's why it's so vital to have banks like Live Oak Bank. Byline Bank is one. There's like at least two or three other ones that are pretty common in the industry. Dr. Russ: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have to…you bypass all that because it's very discouraging. I had one banker that laughed at me. He literally laughed at me. I can't even remember why he laughed. But he laughed at me when I showed him my business plan. And especially, and I really want to say this too, because just the general public, they're seeing what's going on in the pharmacy industry. And so, you know, they- Sonja: Oh, sure. So, yeah, if they're not- Yeah. They're probably like, why are you doing this?…Dr. Russ: Yes; And this was back when I was doing on my own, this particular bank. This is like 2017. Like, right after I would go to a McKesson ownership meeting that I was like, oh, yeah, I'm motivated again. And so, yeah, but this one particular bank, I think it was like 2017, 2018. And I think it was something to that point that-Oh, man, how do you know it's going to survive? You know, you know, things like that. So you you have you may have those obstacles that they don't know the industry. They don't know about the clinical services and how you have to diversify your services and and all of that stuff. I even had. There was a particular location I was looking at at one time. Unfortunately, it was a prior pharmacy owner. He had been around for about 30 years and he passed away. His son, who was not a pharmacist, owned it. They didn't diversify, but I remember talking to that son and the son was like, no, we're going to have to shut it down. And he said, I hope you know, he kind of laughed too. I hope you know what you're doing. Cause it's just not like it used to be. I was like, well, yeah, you know, you're hearing stuff like that. And so I was like, yeah, it, you know, you've got to do different things. You can't just depend on one revenue. You have any business. Especially in these times. And so I have reached out when they closed up, I have reached out to the landlord of that property. And that person kind of laughed and was very cynical. She was like, well, I hope you know what you're doing because that's not a good field to go into.Sonja: That's so demoralizing to hear that message over and over and in different years. Like, it sounds like it wasn't even all in the same year. It was like at different points of your journey.Dr. Russ: Different points. Yeah, it was. And so I was, but you know what you have inside of you, like that makes you different than any other pharmacy like yeah the big chains are closing down things like that; but you know what I'm learning also on this journey it's like independent pharmacists I feel like we don't get the respect that we should. And I'm trying to figure that one out. But, you know, in spite of studying pharmacy and being a pharmacist for 26 years, it's like, you know, independent pharmacy owners are resilient. Many of them. And I know, unfortunately, you do have some that close down, but it's like if they're closing down, you need to find out why. Like that particular pharmacy owner where the pharmacy owner passed with the son. What is the real reason? Because a lot of times you're right. Like it is from not adapting to the changes in the market. It's seeing a decline of certain types of patients and not doing the marketing and the effort to get the other ones in that you need to help out your business.SonjaDr. Russ: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, you have to look at that. Yeah. Yes. You have you have to look at that. And I would encourage, you know, potential pharmacy owners. That's kind of something that I've been doing now is really taking this time anywhere from like five to 15 hours a week. There there is something to be worked on or something you can be doing, like taking this time and finding out what is the market like. What is the consumer spending like? Those consumer spending habits are changing. And they change so fast now. Yes. You could be used to it for one quarter and be like, oh, yeah. And the next quarter is probably the same. But it's not like things are changing so fast. Very, very rapidly. And, you know, I do some PRN work for a chain. Now, and I heard someone, a colleague say that this particular chain, you know, they're scrambling because it's like if they don't do vaccinations, you know, they know that's where the revenue stream is coming in at. Doing outcomes MTM is where the money is coming in at. And so it's like, OK. They know. The media may not know that. They just hear, oh, this chain is shut down, whatever, whatever, and creating pharmacy deserts. But we have to look at it as opportunities. Like I say, yeah, they're creating pharmacy deserts. That's why it's independent. I'm coming in right in that same spot. And I am because people, the need is still there.Sonja: Exactly. It isn't like the need goes away. Sometimes it just moves to a different geography because now people are traveling further or to a different place. That's right. And I'm sure if they had a closer resource that they would go there instead of. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Right.Well, so you did attend the pharmacy ownership workshop a couple of times, right? That's what you said. Three. OK, so three times. So when I interviewed Joshua, it was also like he did it twice, I think. OK. So when you went to that workshop, How did that kind of prepare you for practical realities of it, of ownership? And then as part of this program, you get to go again. So this will be what, your fourth time? Yes. So what do you hope to gain from your fourth time attending RxO Ownership Workshops?Dr. Russ: Yeah, I was saying, you know, we're going those first couple of times. Well, I have to say it did give me a good. I don't even know what I want to say. Foundation is the word yet. At that point, it was just introducing me to the world of independent ownership because it was terminology I had never really heard of before that. I was like, oh, what is that? you know, financing, how that all works, marketing. It just opened up a new world that I just never knew anything about. It's almost like it was its own language that I had to learn. So even though I was a pharmacist, but pharmacy ownership has its own language.Sonja: Well, and it's not really taught in school, right? Like, did you have any kind of business classes?Dr. Russ: I did not. We had one class that dealt with pharmacy management. And because, you know, of course, as for any, I guess, students that may be watching this, that, you know, you're kind of put into that management role when you are a pharmacist. And so they talk a little bit on that. The program that I participated in at my school, I don't think, they even offered ownership because I think it was more clinical focused, you know. And that's even very common now. Like there's a lot more clinical focused and you're going to probably work at the hospital pharmacy type of thing.Sonja: Right, right. And that's it. When I came out with my bachelor's, I went back and got my PharmD. But when I got my bachelor's, it was like hospital retail, you know. Okay, yeah. It's still very common, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.Dr. Russ: So, but yeah, so I was just like, you know, it was just the exposure to it because I can't even say it was a foundation at the time, but it was the exposure to the language of pharmacy ownership. So this time around, of course, I had, well, I'm in a different position because, you know, I'll be, well, moving more towards my opening date. So You know, so I think it's a different I'm listening with a different intent, I guess, when I go this time around, because it's like, OK, I learned. I believe our ownership, the pathways is kind of like bridging that gap from when I was in the artist ownership workshop before and then kind of where I am now, if that makes sense. It's like it's bridging the gap. It's like it's putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah. Like what you're saying, because it's in like more of a condensed type of a format, it is a lot more intense. And so like to your point, if you don't have some kind of a foundation even to start.When you attend it you are gonna feel like you've missed a few things because you'll be thinking back I'm like… okay like I know they covered this but like man am I not very knowledgeable on that or like- oh yeah- this part of my business I thought I had it figured out but okay I need to like go get a consultant or some assistance or something because clearly like that part's not ready yeah but you don't know that though well I didn't know that though…I didn't know until, well, maybe it did in a subtle way. The RX Ownership Workshop prepared me for, well, maybe it did… I need some help. I'm gonna have to get a consultant because how would I else have known? So that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't make that connection, but that's true, yeah.Sonja: Yeah, so I'm excited for you to go to it again and give us feedback on it because I think you have such a unique perspective having gone a couple of times and in different iterations of your journey. It'll be really interesting to see how after our program, what that does for you too with that. So I can't wait to hear about it.Dr. Russ: Absolutely, absolutely.Sonja: So like you said, you're in the midst of getting your first pharmacy opened. That's so, so exciting. So walk us through where you're at in the process right now. And what are the major milestones that you're working toward?Dr. Russ: So right now I am way too close on my loan, my funding. And so that should be within the next few weeks. So, so then that, now that when, when that happens, I think I'm going to have a little small celebration. It's been a process because they do tell you, and again, thank God for my pharmacy broker consultant company that I'm working with because they're there to really hold my hand and and make sure I don't panic too much. Like, why is this taking too long? Why is the bank asking me all these questions? So they're really a very good, I love the company that I'm working with because they really have taken on that hand-holding approach because I need you to hold my hand through this process because I am clueless. So it's comforting to know that I'm working with someone who has so much experience in this area where they have, you know, resources available that they recommend. You can always like, you know, for example, have your own bank, but they have relationship with a few banks. And so they can kind of tailor based on your situation, who they recommend that you connect with and help you with your SBA or your business plan that SBA is going to be looking at and the bank's going to be looking at. So they have a lot of tools already that relieves a lot of time and stress. Believe me. So, so I'm just thankful for that. So, once I get open, you know, it's, it's usually takes about once your loan closes, maybe another six to eight months could be more, could be less to get open because, Gosh, you know, there's so much going on in the pharmacy space now and a lot of transition, a lot of moving parts. So hopefully it won't be too much long after that. But when you're going through like the actual loan approval process, they tell you that that process can take 60 to 90 days in itself. OK, now in an ideal situation. But in my case, I just share this. I had to find my own like contractor my own general contractor because we had somebody it's a long it's a long long story but I'm not gonna for another day but yeah so I had to find another contractor and that took about almost six months for me to find the right contractor!Sonja: Oh my God. Yeah. Does the bank have to approve the contractor that you're using?Dr. Russ: They have to approve like the contractor's contract. Okay. So it's up to it. Well, they do have certain criteria they do. They have, you know, be licensed. So they debate does have certain criteria. I think the criteria is from the SBA itself. Yeah, so there are certain criteria that they standards that they do require and everything. So but the process with the, you know, finding the right general contractor, because I had to find someone who would fit my budget, had someone I really wanted someone with the knowledge of. I mean, finding and building, you know, your own your pharmacy itself or build out because I'm doing a build out. So I'm in within a space. I have a space leased to me from the medical office. And so I have to build that space out because I had to learn what that was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I wanted someone to have that experience because it's a lot of coordination of meetings. I had to do interviews. I even came up with like a spreadsheet of questions you need to ask to help you to learn how to find the right contractor.Sonja: Oh, yeah. I mean, they recommend to do that even for your personal home. So I can only imagine that sort of business.Dr. Russ: Yeah, I didn't know that but now i know well I've personally had some crazy experiences with contractors so it's really good to do your homework it's really good to be thorough it is absolutely good questions because you just never know yeah and all those things take time and that's why i say give yourself between five to 15 hours a week to do that and I actually had to work with a someone else to kind of help me along the way, like a coordinator, I'm drawing a blank on the topic, but someone else that had to come along to help, a project manager.Sonja: I was gonna say like a project person, yeah.Dr. Russ: Yes, a project person. A good friend of mine, colleague, her husband was in the process of getting his certification, so he had to take on a project for so many hours. And thank God they were there. I mean, that was so valuable. That saved a lot of time. But that's something I'm kind of putting together some type of little newsletter or blog or something to just kind of help people along the way. This is the stuff you don't really learn about. But, and everybody's different. Like you might find a contractor or your landlord might have somebody that fits the qualifications and boom, that's it, you know? And so, but yeah, that, those are things that you have to really prepare for and everything. So it could, I mean, this process, I really started this process like October of 2024.Sonja: Okay. So we're coming up on 12 months of- Almost 12 months. And that's because-Dr. Russ: Yeah. And that's because I had to, we had a, the landlord did have someone with that they were not they didn't meet the qualifications as far as the contracting so that's kind of why because it was moving quick then you know but unfortunately that happened so i had to like well I guess I have to do this on my own so so that took a lot of extra time but I'm glad it took that time even though at first it was i was getting like stressed out i know it's so frustrating and yeah it was frustrating like I don't understand but…But I learned so much. I said, I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. Sonja: Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about the collaborative pharmacy practice you're opening. I understand you're going to be collaborating with other health care professionals.Dr. Russ: Yes. So basically in that practice, there is one medical doctor and then he has one nurse practitioner, but they're going to be working or hiring a second nurse practitioner. And then also in his office, he has a dietician in there and he has a counselor in there. And then he has someone else who helps with Medicare, having patients to be enrolled in Medicare Part D. And you'd be surprised, all those different factors, plus they have a care coordinator, a care navigator, he has that person in there. All of those individuals play a role in whole person care. Because you'd be surprised, I know the big thing now is those social determinants of health.Sonja: Oh, yes, yes. Dr. Russ: Yes, and so having each of these individuals and everybody's focusing on their specific area of specialty, so it doesn't have to pull you as a pharmacist or the providers in so many different directions. You can just refer them in-house like, hey, if someone's having problems with getting food or money for food or transportation, and all that can play a part on them getting their medications or coming to their doctor's appointments regularly. Well, we have, you know, our care coordinator here that can help you with that. You know, they're having issues with their Medicare Part D plan and it's not covering their drugs. Well, we have somebody that can help you with that. So it is so nice to have like a one stop shop.Sonja: No, that's amazing. Dr. Russ: Yeah. And convenience. And so and one good thing about this provider that he's really into like holistic care and preventative medicine. And so that's like right down my alley as a health and wellness coach. And so having, you know, the services that I'll be offering along with having a dietitian, you know, we all, you know, looking at ways we can just collaborate together, just trying to, you know, focus on preventative care, reduce those healthcare calls, help the patient understand and educate patients, things like that. So we're really, really excited.Sonja: No, that sounds so cool, like and very innovative in today's health care space. I think that's kind of where everybody's trying to go. And you're very fortunate to have all those different kinds of resources all in one spot. That's going to make a huge difference for patients.Dr. Russ: Oh, yeah, they're so excited. The providers, they're telling patients, hey, we're going to have a pharmacy, because they hear it all the time, the frustrations of what's going on in the pharmacy world. They complain to their doctors. They're not staying open. You don't know when they're open or when they're closed. I can't get my refills. I can't get my long wait times and they're rude. And, and that's because they're stressed out. Yeah. You know, it's like, so it's like, you know, preparing myself to provide like, you're going to be very, very busy. So I hope you have enough staff. You're going to be very, very busy. So yeah. So we're excited.Sonja: No, that's incredible. I'm so excited for you and for the community.Dr. Russ: Thank you. One of the things as well is my goal is to really educate the public about the role of pharmacist, because I still feel like we're the missing piece. Like we're being ignored, like, hello, we can help you with medication adherence with your patient. You know, so they're so used to the public and the community are so used to seeing pharmacists in that one role, you know, working in that dispensing role. but I, you know, want to really educate the public and let them know that we are educators. We're there to, educate those patients. You know, this is our specialty. And like I say, a lot more pharmacists are getting into health coaching, functional medicine, which is my long-term goal. but preventative care and we're there, we're there to do those and provide those services for these patients. And so, I think that the public really needs to know that we're, I believe, are still a very underutilized resource, not just for patients, but for health care providers and a health care system.Sonja: Absolutely. So where can people follow your journey and connect with you?Dr. Russ: Well, as right now, they can go to my consulting website, which is www.spspharmacy.com, or I'm on LinkedIn. you know, Sabrina Russ or Simplicity Pharmacy Services and Wellness Center Inc. That's my consulting company. That's on LinkedIn too. So you can reach out to me there. And I love for you to connect because when we launch our campaign for the health and wellness coaching got a lot of good ideas. Would love to have, you know, pharmacist colleagues be a part of that journey as well with me. But those are the places.Sonja: It's an exciting time for you. It is. A lot of moving pieces. Well, do you have one last piece of advice for anybody who might be listening?Dr. Russ: Oh, yeah, I sure do. So I just want to say that just you know, keep the journey alive, keep moving forward. When you're getting those no's, whether it be like a, you know, something from a bank saying, no, we can't fund you, you know, turn on this podcast and listen to my story. Connect, network, you know, work with and partner with a consultant, somebody that knows the path to make it easier for you. Consult with and, you know, people who can really encourage you. You got to stay motivated. Even listening to podcasts like this, you know, hearing the stories, because I'm on YouTube all the time, listen to different people I like to follow to hear their stories and not just focusing on the good time, but like people who are really transparent and you can know their journey, their struggles and how they overcame them. You know, always connect to me, you know, I'll be glad that we can connect and We can do a quick Zoom if you want to feel like you're feeling discouraged and things like that. But surround yourself around positivity and motivating people. And you will make it to that process. I guarantee it.Sonja: Well, that's very inspirational. And I hope people take the advice and surround themselves with nothing but positivity and learning from those who have overcome challenges because there is nothing more inspiring or motivating than knowing someone potentially has it worse than you do. And they got through their stuff and you will too. And with support and connection, we can make that possible.Dr. Russ: That's right.Sonja: Well, thank you, Dr. Russ. Thanks for joining us on our podcast.Dr. Russ: Thank you for having me.The Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program application is open. The deadline to apply for the program is October 31st, 2025. Visit pathwaystopharmacyownership.com to learn more.Episode SummaryDr. Sabrina Russ takes us through her remarkable journey from a military family background to becoming a geriatric-certified consultant pharmacist, and now to opening her own pharmacy within a collaborative medical practice. She discusses how attending multiple NCPA Ownership Workshops laid the foundation for her understanding of pharmacy ownership, and how the Pathways to Pharmacy Ownership Program has been instrumental in bridging the gap between learning and implementation.Key highlights include her experiences with discouraging encounters with traditional banks and landlords who questioned the viability of independent pharmacy, the importance of working with industry-specific consultants and lenders, and the value of building a "village" of mentors with different expertise. Dr. Russ emphasizes how the program's combination of pharmacy owner mentors and industry professionals has provided both practical knowledge and emotional support throughout her journey. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionIn this inspiring episode of the Script Your Future Podcast, NCPA Foundation Executive Director, Sonja Pagniano, interviews Dr. Jay Phipps, a Pharmacy Gladiator, entrepreneur, and the dynamic force behind the "Pharmacy Gladiator" brand. Dr. Jay Phipps is a Pharmacy Doctor, Founder, Entrepreneur, President, and CEO who leads Phipps Pharmacy, Inc., an independent pharmacy with 4 locations, along with a team of dedicated pharmacy professionals providing personalized, high-quality patient care. He also serves as President and CEO of PhippsCare, which focuses on pharmacy doctor-provided healthcare, and Health Insurance Solutions, specializing in medical and pharmacy plans for seniors.Dr. Phipps' remarkable journey from the tobacco farms of East Tennessee to becoming a successful pharmacy entrepreneur offers valuable insights into overcoming fear, building relationships, and finding success in community pharmacy. His extensive leadership experience includes serving as American Pharmacist Association-Academy Students of Pharmacy National President, on the APhA Board of Trustees, President of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association (TPA), and on multiple boards and committees at national, state, and local levels. He holds a Doctor of Pharmacy degree from The University of Tennessee Health Science Center, where he completed a residency in Drug Information and Pharmacotherapy, and recently earned an MBA with a major in Leadership and Strategy from Indiana University's #1 ranked online MBA program at the Kelley School of Business.As an NCPA member, Tennessee Pharmacists Association member, and NCPA Foundation donor, Jay shares his unique perspective on leadership, innovation, and what it takes to thrive in today's challenging pharmacy landscape.InterviewSonja Pagniano: Welcome to the Script Your Future Podcast. I'm Sonja Pagniano, and I'm thrilled to be here today speaking with Jay Phipps, a pharmacy owner, entrepreneur, and the force behind the Pharmacy Gladiator brand. Jay's journey from the hills of Appalachia to becoming a successful multi-pharmacy owner is truly inspiring. Jay, welcome to our show.Jay Phipps: Sonja, I'm super excited to be here. It's great to share my passion and the passion for the profession. As you've mentioned, I'm a pharmacy owner in West Tennessee and super excited about the opportunities that pharmacies have now and exciting to share my journey with you.Sonja: Excellent. So let's start at the very beginning with two things I think make your story really unique and compelling. You're a first-generation college graduate from Appalachia. Take us back to those early days. What was it like pursuing a career in pharmacy coming from that background? And what initially inspired you to choose pharmacy in the first place?Jay: I was just back in the hills of East Tennessee this past weekend for a Tennessee Pharmacist Association meeting, and it brought up a bunch of memories. And we really did grow up very humble. I would say humble would be the right word. My dad was hardworking, but my grandparents had been tenant farmers and worked on other farms. So we grew up very humble.We were tobacco farmers, so I actually worked in the fields and got my first job at twelve years old, working on a farm. And then took a second job at fourteen, working construction in addition to working on the farm… So very much of a working blue collar family, first generation college graduate.I now have a cousin that is in pharmacy school, which will be the second one to pursue postgraduate education. So that's exciting to have that. So, really just grew up with the work ethic. And I think that has helped make me successful because while I'm not always the smartest, not always the most innovative, the most creative, I do find one of my core values is that I'm relentless. And so I'm going to outwork anybody there is out there. And I think that blue collar background really, really brought that up and gave the foundation for me to be successful in what I do.Sonja: Well, I think you should give yourself some credit because I've seen the stuff you've been accomplishing back-to-back to-back. And so I think you're very smart, definitely smarter than me. So… thinking back to that time, though, when you were first going to go for a college degree, like what did your family think about that?Jay: My parents were amazingly supportive. They didn't have that opportunity. And so they really were supportive of me going and pursuing a graduate degree. We really didn't know what I was going to do. I talked about maybe doing medicine, really wasn't sure.And one of the interesting things I think about my story is because we were—I don't… poor is probably the right word, humble. I used the word humble a lot. And so I actually took a job at a factory working graveyard shift to help save money to go to college. I helped build power steering gears for automobiles at night. And I did chemistry and biology during the daytime.[00:04:03] And so saved up enough money as I went to a community college that I could go to the school that I really wanted to, which is Carson Newman University and…small liberal arts school in East Tennessee, gave me a great opportunity and really, I guess, gave me that foundation because they were a very caring organization that the university poured into us.And that gave me the opportunity, I think, to really give me the confidence to go outside of there. I got a bachelor's degree, really wasn't sure what I was going to do with myself, really still then. And my family had been supportive, but they're like, all right, now it's time to go figure this out. And actually got a job in a hospital pharmacy and as a technician and really enjoyed that.And after a long trip to watch a University of Tennessee football bowl game with a bunch of pharmacy people, I came back and I decided I was going to apply to pharmacy school. And that was, it was very interesting, last minute decision, really, a few weeks before the deadline of pharmacy school.[00:04:55] And I think something very interesting that is, that I reflect back on often is I went to meet with one of the deans at one of the colleges. And, um, like, how do I get in? Um, and, and he looked at my GPA. He looked at, you know, my, my background, my leadership. And he told me, he said, you'll, you'll never get in pharmacy school.Sonja: Nah.Jay: Yeah, it was, it was, it was very interesting. I remember like it was yesterday and I said, you mean this year? And he says, no, I don't think you'll ever get in. Your grades are average. You hadn't taken the PCAT, which was required at the time. You've got some experience, but you don't have any leadership experience, which is, I think, the key thing.I think there's always something to take away from every challenging experience. And so, and he was right. I had very little leadership experience. So I immediately left his office to go to get my transcript sent to the University of Tennessee, because I decided then I was going to go to pharmacy school. If nothing before then, once I was told I couldn't do it.Sonja: Yeah, once you're told no, you're like, okay, this is happening.Jay: It was a done deal. So got that moving forward. But I took that advice. And as soon as I got in pharmacy school, I really got involved in organizations. Ultimately become an APHASP national president. Went from no leadership experience to being in charge.Sonja: Being in charge…leading people.Jay: [00:06:22] And that really was, that really changed me. I think sometimes you can be resentful when people give you direct feedback. And that was one of those, honestly, life-altering… things, because I wouldn't be here today if it hadn't been for that interaction.That could have went either way. I could have went back in a hole and hidden, or I could go and…Sonja: How brave of you though, to even ask the question. There are a lot of people today, they don't even ask. They don't say like, do you think like this will work for me? They just think it's not going to work. And so when people take the time to ask the question, and then even when they're told no, they make it happen.That's the kind of people we need in this industry. We need the go-getters. We need the gladiators, as you call it, to kind of move things forward and keep things driving for the profession. So I think it's remarkable what all you've overcome, how much you've accomplished.And I think your story probably resonates with other people. I know even for myself, obviously not having done pharmacy school or anything, I had a similar experience where I was like, well, I worked two jobs, like through high school, like I did all this work and it didn't matter because it was like…You didn't participate in these organizations. You didn't have any kind of leadership things you were part of. Like, what do you have to show for that? And it's like, it's a legitimate question.But it's also like, how am I supposed to do that and work this much? And it's kind of like in our one conversation we had on our podcast - if you want it, you'll make the time for it. Like, you'll figure it out. And so I do think there is some of that. It's how can you overcome your obstacles and still drive things forward?Jay: Absolutely.Sonja: So over time, I know you've developed a really strong online presence. And I have to ask you about this Pharmacy Gladiator concept. I think that's such a distinctive brand name. What gave you the courage to put yourself out there like that online? And how did you come up with the concept itself?Jay: [00:08:25] Great question! So I spent a lot of time trying to think about like, what's a differentiator in pharmacies? What are we really doing? And I actually go back to Carson-Newman, and when I decided I was going to apply to pharmacy school, I met with Dr. Patsy Boyce, was one of my professors. And I said, I think I'm going to go to pharmacy school. She said, you will be good for the profession…pharmacy needs people like you.And I've always been just a little different than most pharmacists. I don't think like most pharmacists. I think much like most NCPA members, which we're not just pharmacists, we're entrepreneurs at NCPA. And that's really the differentiator, I believe, is that entrepreneurial mindset.So I've been trying to think, how do you like portray, how do you explain what we really do? And at two in the morning, I woke up and went, pharmacy gladiator, that's it!Sonja: At two in the morning?Jay: [00:09:26] At two in the morning. And I'll probably share another story later about two in the morning. Two in the morning is literally, that's my most creative time when you're sleeping in your, you know, you're not letting your busy thoughts cloud your mind and let your brain go to work.And I woke up into Pharmacy Gladiator. So literally at two in the morning, I bought pharmacygladiator.com website, pharmacygladiatorpodcast.com. Like, I mean, I was all in.Sonja: We went all in, yeah.Jay: [00:10:05] And it's really been interesting because I think we, pharmacists are out there conquering the coliseums in their communities… we're battling for patients, we're battling for access, we're battling for our profession. And I think sometimes we're seen as somewhat timid. A gladiator is the opposite of what many people think of as pharmacists. I don't believe that. I think most pharmacists are out there really fighting for their patients and their profession.[00:10:44] And so to me, it seems a little alter ego, I guess, but to me, that's really what's on the inside of most of us as pharmacists, whether you're actually in community practice or health systems or wherever you practice, I think most of us have that inner gladiator, especially in community practice. I think it really stands out on what we do.And so I've taken that, and I'll be honest, It was scary to first have a social media presence. I think I created a LinkedIn account about three years ago. So still new.Sonja: It's still pretty new. Yeah.Jay: It's still new. I had made my first video, which took me about 115 takes before; before I got it done, two years ago or so, a little over two years ago. Now I'm consistently making videos and trying to elevate and inspire other pharmacists to do great things. And they are, and I think you want to shed light on that. You really want to talk about the great things that pharmacists are doing.Sonja: Yeah.Jay: [00:11:54] And so when I started that, it came down to, when I started that social media presence… It was about, you know, there was so much negativity in the profession. We, we felt like we were, we were overwhelmed, you know, DIRs were bad, reimbursement was terrible, you know, and, and you could go to a meeting and it was all these bad things that we think about. And, and really the Gladiator brand has, has evolved somewhat over the last couple of years because; Because my biggest passion is speaking about fear and how we overcome fear.Sonja: Right. And you do talk about that a lot. Yeah.Jay: [00:12:13] Yeah. That's really, when I'm at home at night, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night, I'm researching fear. And how do we overcome fear?[00:12:28] And really gladiators, and interestingly enough, were slaves, right, to the Roman Empire. Well, I think most people are slaves to their fear. You know, what are we; What are we overwhelmed with? Do we have difficult conversations? Do we avoid, you know…how many people want to be an entrepreneur and don't take that step or write a book or change jobs, have a difficult conversation?And, so I started really trying to get that out. And during the time that I started having a social media presence, and we were in such a fearful state, in the profession that many people don't realize, but your amygdala, the part that controls your fear, keeps you from innovating. It pulls the resources from your prefrontal cortex, the front of your brain that does the innovation and long-term planning. And you can't do that while you're in a fearful state.[00:13:17] And so it really has evolved. And it's been a challenge for me to put myself out there because Some are going to like it, some are not. And you just have to be willing to lay it out there and overcome figure. Every time I get ready to shoot a video or give a talk, you have to be positive and think there's somebody out there that you're going to relate to. And you tell your story. And I've been extremely, extremely positive feedback. Been really excited about it. Still a little nervous sometimes. You start wondering about when you lay yourself out there for the world to see.[00:13:59] It's a little challenging, but this past weekend, I went to a Tennessee Pharmacist Association meeting. Three people that I really didn't know came up to me and started talking about how fear was important to them and how it was constraining them. They wanted career changes, but were afraid to. They were afraid to do it. They didn't want to leave worth at the comfort of their own current situation. And I think that's really what where that pharmacy gladiator has evolved to.And it's really worked out to be perfect for me and trying to get that out there to get people to be, to reach their potential and ultimately reach their destiny.Sonja: I think it's a really good message, especially like you said, in a time where there's so much impacting pharmacy. It's all in our news feeds. It's in the work you guys are doing every day. You see it, you see the numbers, you see what's happening to your patients. I mean, you cannot run away from it.Jay: [00:14:59] No, and interestingly enough, you know, in fear, there's, most people think fight or flight. There's actually 3 responses. There's a study out of Stanford to show that you either fight it… You run from it, but the least stressful state is to freeze and do nothing. Your heart rate's down less. You don't have as much stress. And so many people have frozen. You know, they just freeze and just sit there and let it happen to you.[00:15:31] And I think the ones that are stand up and face it head on are the ones that are going to be successful, whether you're in pharmacy or any other profession. I think you really have to, when you have a challenge, you have to be like a buffalo and walk into the storm instead of away from the storm.Sonja: Oh, but it's cold and wet.Jay: It is, exactly.Sonja: It’s uncomfortable.Sonja: Yeah. It is uncomfortable.Jay: [00:15:52] And I tell our team, at least on a weekly basis, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable if you want to grow. If you want to innovate, if you want to be a better person, And you have to be willing to be uncomfortable. And I think that's the one thing that I think a lot of times people have challenges with is they don't like to be uncomfortable. Me either. But the more you do it, the more you get used to it and the better you respond to it.Sonja: Yeah, it's like it's; like a muscle. You’ve got to grow it and practice it. Otherwise it'll get weaker and weaker and it won't work anymore.Jay: [00:16:22] I actually talk about the fear muscle all the time because I think it's really interesting you say that because it's really the exact same thing. The more that you do something that you're uncomfortable with, you do. You grow that muscle just like you go to the gym to grow a set of biceps or quads. It's the exact same process.Sonja: So how has your online presence impacted your business? You talked about people approaching you at the Tennessee Pharmacist Association meeting. Have there been other areas where it's impacted you as well?Jay: [00:16:54] Absolutely. It's really developed a lot of relationships. And I can't tell you how many times I go to a meeting and people don't remember my name, but they're like, you're the pharmacy gladiator. I was at Red Cell Connect not long ago and was talking to somebody and we couldn't carry on the conversation. Not to say it braggingly, but I bet there were 10 people in a row that were like, hey, you're the pharmacy gladiator, right? And so, it really has built that network and has gotten me out there. And then that's allowed me to honestly help other people, I think, but it's also helped me because then you make those connections, and it breaks down that barrier. Because even if you see somebody on social media, you feel like you know them.Sonja: Sure, yeah.Jay: [00:17:40] And you want to; I want to be authentic. I want, I think most people out there, the majority want to be authentic. And if you're that way, then it breaks down that barrier and people that you wouldn't speak to before you will. And so that's really given me some, I think, some great opportunities to make relationships. I'm a big relationship builder. I want to know who people are. I want to know about them. AndSonja: It's like a pre-icebreaker.Jay: It is, it is; because they're like, hey, I was, I don't remember where, about six, eight months ago at a conference and a pharmacy student came up to me and he said, that smile is real…That's how he started the conversation. And I went, yeah. And I'm like, because I guess he's seen me on social media and I usually, I've got a big smile on my face most of the time. And he said, I didn't know if you were just faking that for pictures or if you really did smile. And so it was, it's really good, but you do have that comfort. If he hadn't seen me on social media, I would have never had that opportunity to have that conversation…Sonja: …Let’s talk about numbers and growth related to your pharmacies. So how many pharmacies do you own now? And how did you make the transition from owning one to multiple?Jay: [00:18:53] Great question. Currently, I own four, all in middle and west Tennessee. I actually just recently bought a new building. So, we're going to have #5 in 2026.And I'll go back to- I'll do it in chronological order. You know, I graduated pharmacy school. I did a residency in drug information and pharmacotherapy. I'm probably the only independent pharmacy owner in the world that did a drug information residency and pharmacotherapy.Sonja: I've never heard of that.Jay: And I am pretty abnormal from other drug information pharmacists. Most of them, they're very reserved and quiet – I’m neither of those. But during my residency, I got a phone call because I got involved as a student in APHA. And somebody called me and said, hey, we're opening a pharmacy. Would you like to work for us? And I said, no, but I would consider being a partner. And why I said that, I have no idea because; my parents never wanted to own anything or owned a business. And so anyway, my residency project ended to be opening up a community pharmacy. And so, 25 years ago, this past June, we opened up my first pharmacy with two partners, two great guys. And we saw within the first year or so that we had different visions. Like I said, great people. And so, we split ways as partnership and I've been on my own since.And really it was me trying to figure out how to do that. And you know, when you open a pharmacy, I had two mortgages, student loans, you know, you go to the bank and you borrow money from the bank to pay yourself to pay your two mortgages.It's not ideal.Sonja: No, probably not.Jay: No, I would hate to hear what Mark Cuban and Mr. Wonderful would have to say about that.[00:21:11] I'll be candid… and I don't want to discourage anybody, but going from one to two was more difficult than going from two to four.Sonja: Sounds like having kids.Jay: It sounds the same. It is. Um, because you, most of us are really good at being tactical. We're good on the counter. Being good on, on the counter, being good with patience is different than managing a business and being an entrepreneur.[00:21:36] And I'll speak on that word entrepreneur. for just a second, which is that I never owned that word until I went back at 50 years old. I know I don't look like I'm 50 years old, but I am 50. I went back and got my MBA at 50 from University of Indiana. And that's the first time I owned the word entrepreneur. I never thought about it. I'm just a pharmacy owner. No, we're not just pharmacy owners. We are changing the business model. We're entrepreneurs and we're doing new things.And it's just, I think that transition and mindset is challenging for me. And as I talk to other people, I think it can be. So once I figure out how you scale that, how you manage people, and I'm such a better leader, I believe, now than I was then, because I was a really good pharmacist. I could fill prescriptions really fast. I could do all those things, but I didn't know how to manage things that were outside my control. And that really, that was the most challenging part.And then, you learn to scale those things. You get better and you put systems in place … you give people some flexibility to be themselves, but you also give them a structure in which they thrive… probably, you learn that you have to step back and let people You don't want to micromanage things. You don't want to.Sonja: Right. You want to trust your employees. You hired them to do a job.Jay: Exactly; if people aren't successful, most of the time it's my fault because I didn't give them the tools. Did I give them the training? You know, sometimes you have to do some training and up-level people.[00:23:23] And so now, we operate 4 pharmacies and then I also have an organization called Phipps Care, where pharmacists are in a clinic. in our pharmacy, providing weight loss services. We're doing test and treat, flu Strep COVID, UTIs. We're also helping manage erectile dysfunction in men. So that's another business that we have. And now I'm also an insurance agent. So I have a company called Health Insurance Solutions in which we have pharmacy technicians and nurses and pharmacists that are doing helping people select their Medicare Part D plans.[00:24:00] And so a lot of balls in the air, but to me, that's the exciting part of it. And if I hadn't learned how to scale early, I don't think we could do that now, but you have to be able to be comfortable stepping back and as you said, trusting people to reach the goals that you all set together and then step back and give them feedback though if they need it. you know, be direct about it and not just assume they know everything and help them really reach their potential.Sonja: So how do you identify those people for your businesses to kind of help move things along? Like what are some of the qualities you see in people that have really been helpful?Jay: [00:24:35] That's a podcast in itself. The number one thing I look for is problem solving. I mean, that's it, without a doubt, because if you can solve a problem, You don't have to be the smartest. You don't have to have all the ideas, but if you can problem solve, that's, that's the people I want on my team. I want people that are, are problem solvers.[00:25:03] And so we have a, we have a very systematic approach to hiring people now, standardized questions. for technicians, we have a math test to see where they're at. It's not a yes or no, we hire them, but it's, hey, we want to know where your skill set really is. Are you able to be in the compounding lab or not able to be in the compounding lab without training? And so we've become very systematic.I let technicians interview technicians.Sonja: smart, yeah.Jay: [00:25:32] So it doesn't really matter what I think. I could think you were the greatest member of, to come on our team, but if the team doesn't think that, it doesn't really matter what I think.Sonja: Right, because they're going to be around that person all the time.Jay: [00:25:43] Exactly. And I've learned, even recently, sometimes you make decisions. and you haven't, you don't follow that mindset, that structure you put in place, and it's like, it backfires. So I really have opened up trying to get the whole team involved in the hiring process.And it's hard. You know, hiring the right people, it's all about culture. You know, not everybody sits in our culture. We innovate, we're problem solvers, we're solution focused. We want to sell fast. We don't want something to drag out for a year when we can find out in a week. And it's hard to find that.[00:26:30] have to get them, you know, you have to get the right people on your bus and then put in the right seat on the bus. And then there's times you need them to put them on somebody else's bus. And that's always hard. It goes back to fear. Like, yeah, I used, I used to not let people go… Now you learn it's better for them to be on the right bus than your bus just because it's convenient or it's difficult to not let them be on your bus.Sonja: Exactly. Yeah. Again, finding comfort in uncomfortable conversations.Jay: [00:27:01] Absolutely. Which I think is really as the research I've done, and I do surveys - That's it, that avoiding conflict, including difficult conversations, for pharmacists especially, it just scares them to death. Like, we won't want to have those hard conversations. The more you do it, the better it gets. It's never easy, but it does get better. And you're right. Just trying to find the right people for the right culture. To me, that's going to be paramount to your success.Sonja: Well, of the right people. Speaking of relationship building, I noticed the NCPA sign behind you and the Tennessee Pharmacists Association. I know you're a member of both of those. So, for pharmacists listening to who might be on the fence about joining or rejoining an organization like an association, what value do you get from being part of an organization like an association?Jay: [00:28:00] that, the associations, provide, I think, a great value when you step back, when you look at what they give you. But then my greatest personal benefit is the mastermind of other like-minded professionals. And that's where the real value, you know, NCPA and TPA both do great jobs of having resources and finding out what we need…the thing that stretches across all the organizations is you get those people together and you make them build those relationships that you're never going to do when you're in your pharmacy all day long…on a regular basis, which drives my family a little crazy sometimes. I'll be going driving down the road and go, oh, independent pharmacy, and I'll walk in.Sonja: Oh, and you'll stop by and say hi.Jay: [00:28:42] I just stop by, exactly. When we're on vacation, we did the same thing. We went to Oregon recently, and we stop and visit pharmacies when we're on the coast. Actually visited one of Jeff Harrell’s stores and…and a great opportunity to go and see what people are doing. But most people don't do that. Most people are in their box.[00:29:12] And I think the associations give us an opportunity to develop those relationships and really solve problems together. really missing out on that. We don't have to be, even if you're a single store owner in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee, you don't have to be on an island. Right, you're choosing not to wave down the ship as it goes by to rescue you. can get help. And I think sometimes we don't take advantage of that. And the more that you'll look for it, the solutions are there. You just have to get out of your box to go find them.Sonja: Yeah, I think as a foundation, that's something that we see as super important is reminding people of the value of community, like the community of community pharmacy, so to speak. I think we might have regained a lot of that during COVID, but I think we also lost some of that because we were also distanced from each other. And so… I think reminding people of the value of organizations, of the value of relationship building, of what it means to bring a group of diverse different mindsets and things into a room so that you can go and talk and learn about new things that you aren't necessarily going to find out on the internet. The organic conversation, you learn so much more.Jay: I agree. I agree 100%. I think you're spot on with that stuff. I'd like to add, in my career, I've watched it evolve. When I first started 25 years ago, pharmacists across the country would share. The pharmacists that were close didn't necessarily share.Sonja: Oh, interesting.Jay: [00:30:50] What I have watched is really because of the challenges that the profession has faced, we've become unified. We have this big enemy, PBMs, to be very candid, right? It's a giant elephant in the room. And that has brought us together, I think, in a different way, which is great. Not that we had that enemy, but that way we have unified and… To me, we converse and we'll share even locally that we would probably never have done 20 years ago. But now we realize that we are stronger together, and that's really what NCPA does for us.Sonja: What's the biggest mistake that you see new pharmacy owners make?Jay: [00:31:35] pharmacists are perfectionists. One of the biggest fears we have is we want to be perfectionists. And, you know, I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. I get it.Sonja: Well, it's important when it comes to medicine.Jay: Yes, right. But it does. With other things. Yeah, it does draw in that personality of right drug, right patient, right dose, right doc. You know, I get that. But on the entrepreneurial side, you need to be able to be okay knowing it's not always going to be perfect. You're never going to have all the data. Make a decision. If it's wrong, pull the plug. At a pharmacy years ago that I left open for a long time, I kept going, it'll be better next year. It'll be better next year. And still, I should have said, all right, it's just not the right place. I made a bad decision. But you get sunk cost in it. You're like, oh, I've put all this time and money in it. I've got to keep going.Sonja: Yeah, you feel bought in and committed to your mistake.Jay: Yes, exactly right. Which really, and that fear of letting go and stepping back can be overwhelming. So I think the one thing is, I guess the number one advice I would give new pharmacy owners is one, quit thinking about it and start and do it. Take action. We think about it forever. Quit thinking about it, do it. And then be okay that not every step's gonna be right. You don't have to have everything perfect the first time. Go sell fast, figure it out, make it better and improve with every day you go into work or every week and every month. And then that'll really make you successful, I believe…than thinking you've got to have it perfectly laid out on the beginning. And then if it doesn't work out that way, you're disappointed. Well, be okay that it's going to be a better at the end than what you think it'll be. You just can't see where it's going to be exactly yet.Sonja: And it's also okay if you get to that place where you realize you failed to ask for help. Like to your point, There are thousands of pharmacy owners across the country who are willing to pick up a phone or send an e-mail or whatever and help out. So I think that's also good to remember.Jay: I do too. Yeah. You're really not on your own. And most of us, 99% of pharmacists are gonna be, if you pick up a phone and say, hey, I don't know you, but I need help with this. They're gonna say, all right, what do you need help with? And they're gonna give you everything They'll lay it out and give you all the help that you could ever need. You have to be willing to be uncomfortable enough to ask for help. Early in my career, I was not. Now I'm like, there's more that I don't know than I know, and it's okay. So why not go to somebody else that knows more than I do about a subject?Sonja: Well, Jay, this has been fantastic. Before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? Maybe something we didn't cover that you think is important for people to know?Jay: [00:34:31] I have never been more excited about the profession of pharmacy than I have now. 25 years in it and there's all this negativity that we talk about. But I'll be honest, I feel like the profession is a volcano that's got the steam, got the pressure building up in it and it's about to explode.So I really think, you know, look for the positives. There's a lot of positives out there. We're able to do things from a practice setting and In most states that we've not been able to do in the past, we're wired to look for the negatives. And that's okay, but there's much more positive out there. We just have to remain relentless.[00:35:15] I wear a wristband that says pharmacy gladiators are passionate and relentless. You got to remember what your passion is. Why are you here? What's your purpose? And then how do you pursue that purpose every day? And I think you do it by remaining relentless. And that does allow us to conquer the coliseums in our own communities.Sonja: And then one more question before we go. So thank you for being a donor of the NCPA Foundation. What do you think the foundation can do to help drive innovation and sustainability in community pharmacy?Jay: [00:35:45] I think the foundation, number one, are great listeners. Like you really are great listeners to what's going, because sometimes people in an office can have great ideas. But I think the best ideas are when you listen and then you apply your wisdom to that and you bring out the best of both worlds of what's boots on the ground and what's creative.[00:36:16] And I think the foundation brings that creativity for implementation. And so I think we just need to continue to work together, to collaborate, to make sure that pharmacists, when they have ideas, go to the foundation and talk to them, talk to you about it. and lay those ideas out, and then the foundation to continue to support those ideas so we can move the profession forward.Sonja: Well, I think you said that beautifully. And I know I'm inspired every time you talk about being passionate and being relentless. And I try to apply that to our work here at the foundation as well.So, Jay Phipps, a pharmacy gladiator himself, Jay, where can people find you online and connect with you?Jay: [00:36:53] I have a website, pharmacygladiator.com. And then you can find me on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram at Dr. Jay Phipps on all those platforms. And I'd love to connect with people there. Love to help. I enjoy working with teams and helping build and really giving keynote speeches about fear and how you overcome fear to be successful. So love for people to connect and love to make that connection, build that relationship.Sonja: Excellent. That is great feedback. Thank you so much. And thanks so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.Jay: Thank you very much. I've enjoyed it very much.Contact Information* On LinkedIn* On Instagram* X* Pharmacy GladiatorEpisode SummaryIn this episode of Script Your Future, Jay Phipps shares his extraordinary path from a first-generation college graduate working tobacco farms in Appalachia to owning four pharmacies and multiple healthcare ventures in Tennessee. He discusses the pivotal moment when a pharmacy school dean told him he'd "never get into pharmacy school," and how that rejection fueled his determination to succeed. Jay explains the evolution of his "Pharmacy Gladiator" brand, which emerged from his passion for helping pharmacists overcome fear and reach their potential. The conversation covers practical advice on scaling from one to multiple pharmacies, building strong teams, and the importance of professional associations in fostering collaboration and innovation in community pharmacy. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionIn today's challenging pharmacy landscape, many independent pharmacy owners are struggling with shrinking margins, predatory PBM contracts, and the constant pressure to do more with less. But what if there was a different way forward? What if you could turn these challenges into opportunities?Today, we're joined by Dared Price, a pharmacist and entrepreneur who has done exactly that. Based in Winfield, Kansas, Dared owns eight pharmacy locations in partnership with NCPA Foundation Board of Trustees member Bill Osborn, and he's also the co-owner of Oread Rx, a transparent PBM that's saving clients up to 60% on their pharmacy costs. Whether you're a new graduate considering ownership, a seasoned pharmacist looking to pivot, or simply someone who wants to understand how to make healthcare work better for everyone, this conversation is packed with actionable insights you can implement right away. Let’s dive in.InterviewSonja: Hi, I'm Sonja Pagniano, the Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, here with the Script Your Future podcast. I'm excited to introduce you all today to Dared Price. Dared, how are you? Where are you located? And what do you do in the pharmacy world?Dared: Sure. What don't I do in the pharmacy world? My name is Dared Price, and I'm a pharmacist, and I'm located in Winfield, Kansas. I am a pharmacy Owner, of course, and I have 8 locations in South Central Kansas, south of Wichita. And I'm also a PBM owner, of Oread Rx. So those are the two main hats I wear in pharmacy.Sonja: So, what led you to where you are today? I'm sure there's a lot of things that have happened along the way. But thinking back to when you were first starting out, what kind of inspired you on this pharmacy journey? Took you to where you are now.Dared: Sure. Yeah, I so I've had many mentors throughout my life. You know, as a young kid, I was inspired to go to pharmacy school by the local pharmacy owners in my hometown, which is Elk City, Oklahoma. So, Gina Meador and Warren Meador, who were very influential on me early on and got me interested in pharmacy. And then when I was in college, I had a mentor, his name was Harvey Ahl. He had a huge compounding pharmacy in Blanchard, Oklahoma, and was kind enough to give me a job during college…And really inspired me to go on to pharmacy school. And to do some of the other things that I did. And then, you know, after pharmacy school, Bill and Willie Osborn. Really, you know, I've actually partnered with them and went to work for a pharmacy owner, Steve Pryor, in Enid, Oklahoma as my first pharmacy job, and then partnered with the Osborns to buy my first pharmacy-pharmacies, and then, you know, just kind of snowballed from there.00:02:15 And then, you know, 5 or 6 years ago, just saw a huge need in the industry for PBM reform, obviously, like we all do. And, you know, instead of talking about it and complaining about it, and beating my head up against the wall at the legislative offices. We decided to actually do something about it. And that's when we created Oread Rx. It was a long road to create and many bumps along the way, but we're definitely in a good spot now and growing, and helping to solve a much-needed problem in the healthcare industry. So, I know that was a 30,000 foot quick assessment, but that's how I got to where I am today.Sonja: Oh, that's wonderful. And, I mean, Bill Osborn, he's on our Board of Trustees at this time for the foundation. So it is really cool to talk to someone like you who has had that mentorship experience as well with one of our own board members.Dared: Yeah, absolutely.Sonja: So you said you own 8 pharmacies. Do you outright own all of those? Are you in some kind of a partnership model with those?Dared: Sure, so we are partnered with the Osborns on those pharmacies. And so, yeah, we actually owned 9 pharmacies, but actually last weekend, I merged one of our pharmacies into another one. And consolidated those, so it went from 9 to 8, just here recently.Sonja: So, for people who are maybe not sure what kind of an ownership model is right for them, can you kind of give them a bit more insights on the partnership model, how can you even get started with something like that? Is it, like, started through networking first, and then or is there a space where they can go and find those opportunities.Dared: Yeah. I would say NCPA is a great place to find those opportunities, you know. I know all the pharmacy owners that I know. You know, love to find young pharmacists that want to be owners one day. And have them come work for them and see what it's like. And then, you know, I'd be happy to share anything that they want to know about ownership, really. I'm happy to do the same thing. I would love for the next generations of pharmacy owners to take over for us one day. But there are all kinds of different models out there, you know, I mean, there's smaller junior partnership percentages…There's 50-50 deals, there's majority partnerships. And I don't know that one is better than the other. You know, the partnership that I've always had is a 50-50 deal. And, you know, both parties have to bring. You know, 50% equity to the partnership. And I just believe at that point it's a true partnership. You know, everything that you do is together. Both parties have to bring value to the partnership, obviously. You know, I was able to start at a really young age because of that. Whereas, if I would have tried to go on my own, or tried to buy stores by myself…You know, there's no way I could have started at 26. You know, I would have been 10 years past that before I had enough money to be able to go buy a pharmacy, so it provides a way to get into the game, the pharmacy ownership game at an early age.Sonja: Sure, sure. No, for sure, and I know especially for people right out of school, like, it is a really good opportunity for them to get started…At that time, also with someone who's potentially much more seasoned, right? They know what's going on in the industry, they've been through the challenges. And they can kind of help guide them also through some of those business aspects that I know people don't really learn in school, right? It's kind of learning by doing.Dared: Yeah, that's definitely not taught in school. I mean, you don't learn to read P&Ls and know what Goodwill is, and depreciation, and all the things in business, you know, and so you have to kind of learn on the fly, really. Unless you go to get your MBA as well, which I know a lot of people do that also.00:06:20 But, you know, the first year we were in business, you know, we moved states, you know, so we moved far away from home. And I think, my first year on our P&L, it showed we lost $250,000 in our pharmacies, and so I would have ran for the hills if I didn't have, you know, a seasoned mentor to say, well, just chill out.A lot of that's depreciation and other things, so just ride it out, it'll get better, and it did, obviously. And so having a partnership that knows those types of things was invaluable for me as a young owner.Sonja: That's excellent. So when you were thinking about starting this transparent PBM. What were maybe some of the biggest challenges you faced taking on a different type of business and adding that to your business portfolio?Dared: Yeah, so gosh, that's a good question, and I really didn't start the PBM. It was already kind of started with the three owners here in Kansas. I joined on a little bit later after they'd kind of built some of the framework. But there are a ton of challenges for small PBMs that are trying to do the right thing. You know, obviously the big three control 80-85% of the market. And, you know, that's what people are used to. And, you know, there's some medical network issues, and so if you've got employers across multiple states. You need some of these bigger third-party administrators, or TPAs. To administer the medical side of the plan, right?And a lot of those are owned are the insurance companies that own the big three PBMs. And so, they're not really willing to work with smaller PBMs because, as we know. They want to push people to their own PBM so they can rip them off, basically, and make more money. And so, that's a challenge. To get in with an employer group, so really, you only have the ability to be the PBM for somebody that's self-insured. You know, so anybody that just has regular traditional insurance. You don't even have a shot, because those people are going to be steered to the big three PBM, which is wrong, which is what's wrong with our with the PBM industry.Sonja: Yeah. Absolutely. So, thinking about. A transparent PBM, like, what does the transparent part of that actually mean? When it comes to, like, the operations of it.Dared: Yeah. And I hate, and I hate those words, I hate transparent, I hate pass-through. Everybody just says it, you know? Like, it drives me insane, and yet you have to say it. But so transparent just means I'm gonna show you everything, right? But a lot of times, they will. And it'll be an 85-page contract, and they'll be transparently telling you how they're gonna rip you off.Sonja: Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah, bury people in paperwork.Dared: And so it's but nobody understands it. Yeah, exactly. Nobody understands it, nobody reads it. And they just rely, you know, on a consultant or they just trust that, you know, these big insurance companies are doing. You know, what's right, and that couldn't be further from the truth, obviously. And then pass-through, you know, is supposed to mean that you pass through all of the savings that you get onto the client. But That doesn't mean that you can't build in these special fees, or disqualify claims, or do all these other things that a lot of PBMs do, unfortunately.00:10:06 And to be honest with you, Sonja, like, we never wanted to start a PBM. We wanted to partner with the transparent pass-through PBM. And every single one that I tried to partner with was doing something that the big three are doing. And so frustrating, like, just do what, it's just, it's…That's so frustrating…Infuriating to me, and so that's when we just said, okay, let's do this ourself.00:10:33 I think our contract's 8 pages. And anybody can read it, anybody can understand it, and it's the way it's supposed to be. So that's that's how we got to where we're at.Sonja: Well, that's definitely eye-opening for me, because, like you said, we're constantly bombarded with these words, and then it is, it's like, what does that even actually mean? And you're right, if they're still hiding things, if they're still adding additional hidden fees, like.00:11:01 Is that truly helping the patient at the end of the day? Is it really, truly advancing anything for healthcare? Probably not.Dared: Yeah. Yeah, and a word that probably is better used, that we try to use, is “honest” PBM. And we act as a fiduciary on behalf of our clients. You know, and so which means You are truly looking out for their financial well-being, not your own. You know, and so a lot of the a lot of the PBMs, unfortunately, but especially the ones that take private equity money. I mean, they are beholden to the shareholders of that private equity firm. You know, that's their number one goal, is to make a profit. Which any business's goal is to make a profit. You know, I'm not saying that you can't make money. But your number one goal becomes satisfying your own stakeholders instead of doing what's right on behalf of the clients that you serve. And so, there's a way to do both, you know, there's a way to run a solid business and save a ton of money for your client, and do what's right in the industry. It's just The way the regulations are, it's so easy to turn a blind eye and do what's wrong, and you can make a. Boatload of money doing that. And unfortunately, that's what most of these PBMs have gotten caught up in. And, it's just I don't know. I'm not gonna do that. And so, that's just the way that's just the way it is.Sonja: Well, I really appreciate your work in this space, because I think there's a ton of value. And I think, honestly, a gap in business for businesses like that. Businesses that are honest, businesses that really care about people and are trying to do the right thing.Dared: Yeah. I hope so.Sonja: And I think when people hear about that, they value that, and they want to support it. You know, to me, it's a no-brainer.Dared: It's an absolute no-brainer. Yeah, most of the time, these, you know, especially, like, municipalities and school districts. And people like that, they don't understand that their health insurance plan is killing their local pharmacy. You know, like, they are assisting in putting their local pharmacy out of business by the plan that they choose. And they don't realize that if they chose a different option- Not only would they be helping support their local businesses. But they would save a ton of money themselves. You know, and so it's, it's just unbelievable to me, and.00:13:35 Once you see the numbers, like. I was just talking to a guy last night. Actually, he belongs to a school system close to Kansas City area…and, he, he went away from traditional insurance and was self-funded. And he said the past 3 months, they've spent half as much money on health insurance as they did when they were with the traditional insurer. And that's that's…Tens of thousands of dollars for a very small school district. That's huge cost savings. It's huge cost savings. Yeah, and another person I was with at lunch yesterday, who's one of our clients. None of their employees pay for health insurance in October, November, or December. They don't make anybody pay for it. Because of how much they save. Wow. Because of how much money they save, on on specifically on the PBM side. And what's funny about that is they switched to us. 3 years ago. From a transparent, pass-through PBM, right? And in year one, they saw a 60% reduction in their pharmacy spend! Without any change in coverage, without any difference in drug coverage. Just from switching to somebody that does what they're saying they're doing.Sonja: Just from switching. That's so novel!Dared: So, it's just. It's unbelievable. It's hard to sell, to be honest with you, which it should be easy to sell, right? But people just don't believe you. Like, they don’t at all.Sonja: Yeah. Well, because they're so used to the scam that is...Dared: Unbelievable. Yeah. It is a scam.Sonja: The insurance industry. It's a massive scam.Dared: It is an absolute, absolute scam. It really is.Sonja: And to me, it's devastating how used to that kind of stuff we've gotten, that we're just complacent now. But you're right, the more. The more people talk about it, the more that they see these stories of people, like, actually having these savings, the more they hear about actual patients, right, with better outcomes because of it. I think eventually it'll catch fire.Dared: Yeah. Well, a couple things, you know, like. So, I don't know if you've seen some of the lawsuits that are coming down, but, I can't remember if it's J&J, I think, is involved.Sonja: Yeah, yeah, that was that was the one that triggered a lot of this for myself, because I'm like, oh, fiduciary duty, what does that even mean?Dared: Yeah, but Yeah, yeah, they're their employees, the employees of J&J, actually sued J&J. For not doing their due diligence on their health insurance, right?Sonja: Mm-hmm.Dared: And so, that's kind of a scary thing. And the second thing is, you know, when you look at your P&L as a business. I mean, health insurance is usually number one or number two on. What is costing you to do business on the expense side, right? And so, as an employer, I mean, it's like - Definitely a top 5 thing that you should be looking at and considering, when you're evaluating your business. On how to how to save money, and not only save money, but provide a better product for your employees, you know, like.Sonja: The value of what you're spending, like, does is that actually equaling out for your people or not.Dared: It's it's all sick care, you know? Like, they want you to get sick and go to the most expensive hospitals, and be on the most expensive drugs, and because if that happens, then the insurance company makes more money in the end. You know, they can they can raise your premiums up and make more revenue off of that, so it's just a it's a broken system, and we're happy to be part of the solution, you know? Like, it's…00:17:12 There's nothing more rewarding to me. Than, you know, going and telling the story. Somebody switches to us, and then, like, the lunch meeting that I had yesterday, 3 years later, saying. You guys told us you would probably save us around 30 or 40%. You actually saved us 60%, and none of our employees pay for health insurance in October, November, December. And to me, that's, like, the most rewarding thing that I've ever done in my career. And I'm excited to continue to grow and do it for more people.Sonja: Absolutely. So what advice do you have for other pharmacy owners that are maybe really frustrated right now.Dared: Yeah. Well, I mean.Sonja: Because I feel like you've… you've kind of kept a certain level of optimism going, right? And so, like, how do you do that? How do you maintain that?Dared: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's hard sometimes. Especially when you see some of these contracts that the big three roll down to you, but. I mean, you have to pivot, right? You if you're not making money dispensing prescriptions, then how can you make money? What can you do? You know, I mean, you don't have to… you know, do what I did, and try to, like, go, you know, change the market share in your communities. Now, I highly advise that, actually, and we would be happy to partner with anybody that wants to do that.00:18:31 Because it's important to tell the story, right? It's important to make people understand. Because I know you and I talked to Nathan Reed the other day, who was the superintendent here of schools. And he came into my office very frustrated with me. Because their health insurance was going up 30 or 40% because of the cost of drugs. And so, he wanted to know, why the hell are you charging us so much for drugs? You know? And I had to quickly explain to him, no sir, actually, we make less money than we ever have, so it's not us charging you. Let's, let's, look at what your PBM is charging you for drugs. So it's important that local people know, like, the true story of what's going on. And that there are solutions. To fix that problem. You know, and so that's that's the way I went, but, you know, there are other things in pharmacy, all the wellness stuff, the -you know, the vitamin lines, the DME, the immunizations we have.We have two pharmacists that are embedded in the clinic doing annual wellness visits and chronic care management. We now employ a nurse practitioner, and we have two wellness clinics.Sonja: Oh, cool.Dared: That she runs, that focuses on. Hormone replacement therapy and true wellness. So there's, you know, there's a lot of different things that you can do besides just dispense prescriptions to impact the health of your community. And so, you know, don't give up, just shift, just pivot.Sonja: And so for some of these owners who are very overwhelmed, right, and they're just kind of, like, barely making margins…How do they start to integrate some of these new services into their pharmacy? Like, have there been steps that you've taken that you've found to be a bit…easier? Is it all dependent on your community and, like, who's in your community?Dared: Yeah, I mean A lot of times, you want to go find holes for care in your community, you know? And so… If you're if your community that struggles with DME, for example, like, if there's not a local DME provider. Maybe look at, you know, providing some of the items in DME that are profitable. Like, CPAP machines, or diabetic shoes. Or nebulizers, you know, looking at your local. What does your local community look like? And so that's one example. But I mean, it's challenging, especially for smaller stores where you just have one pharmacist, you know, and they're.Sonja: Exactly.Dared: They're overwhelmed because we're filling more prescriptions today than we ever have been, right? Making less money doing it. And so, I would say, you know, number one --and this this is the one thing I completely despise about pharmacy today.00:21:36 You have to say no sometimes. You know, you can't you can't afford to fill a prescription for a loss. You just can't do it. You won't be there for your community if you continue to do that. So, now I know you have to be careful with how you go about doing that, but..You can't. You have to find solutions to where you you can't fill prescriptions at a loss. And so, I'd say that's number one. Learning to say no, and. And when to say no. And then, you know, you're not going to leave the patient out to dry. You're going to find them a solution, whether it be a therapeutic substitution, or you know, finding them a new pharmacy, that would take their fill. But that's unfortunately a reality in the pharmacy world today. That you have to say no sometimes. And, you know, business doesn't have to be complicated.00:22:32 Do more of the things that make you money and less of the things that don't, right?And so, saying no to some of those losses. Well, you can see it pretty quickly in your dispensing data, you know, and then…Like, if you're overwhelmed. Find a couple of holes in your community of of needs in the medical field, and then go fill those needs.Sonja: So, definitely pharmacy owners need to go look at their data. If they're not looking at it regularly, go look at it right now.Dared: Absolutely. Figure out -Which, which plans pay you. And, you know, figure out which employers those are, go market to those employers too. For those patients to come to your pharmacy. Very targeted marketing, you know? Used to be 10 years ago, it didn't matter. You just marketed to the whole community. But if you've got a bad payer. A bad PBM contract, you don't want those people to come to your pharmacy, unfortunately. So find the ones that do pay well, and then go market to those businesses.Sonja: Sure, sure. No, that's smart. So, you had mentioned NCPA earlier. How long have you been involved with NCPA?Dared: Oh, ever since I was a student, Loved NCPA as a student, and. I think it's pretty sad, actually. A lot of people are involved as a student, just because it's-- you've got the organization there, and it's kind of easy, but then when you graduate. Life happens, right? And you've got all these bills to pay, and you've got all your student loans to pay back. And some of the association work just kind of falls off, right?But I would say I've I've gotten more out of my relationships with NCPA and Oklahoma Pharmacists Association and the Kansas Pharmacists Association. Than I will ever be able to pay back. And so, I would highly encourage students and young pharmacists to get involved in…in your associations and organizations. That's where… That's where you find the people that are doing things well, that's where you find - you know, the friendships and the lifelong relationships that you'll have. That's where you'll find your mentors. And so, yeah, I've been involved in KPHA and NCPA ever since I graduated back in 2008. So, and then, I've been a vice I got elected to be a vice president in 2019, for NCPA. Which I don't know if people that understand that, you…you get elected to be a vice president, and then that's kind of the bullpen of people that they pull up to be on the board when a board seat comes open every year.And so, I think I spent 3 years as a vice president, and then got pulled up to the board, so I think this is my third year as a board member of NCPA.Sonja: Very cool, and so what's your favorite program, though, that NCPA offers? I know there have been a lot of new ones that have come up.Dared: You know, we have really benefited at my pharmacy from the NCPA Fellowship. I've had Two pharmacists now go through that as… as new grads, and they did the NCPA fellowship through our company. And that was really beneficial, because, what it did was it provided us a pharmacist, right. But then it also gave them some time. To go find a project, to bring to our store, you know? And so. The one that stands out, to me is Test and Treat, you know, which hasn't become as big as we thought it would be. But every one of our stores are able to do it now because of the NCPA fellowship that we did. And so yeah, so that person was able to do that, you know, part-time as a pharmacist for our company. And so, that was that was really great. I highly recommend. The, the NCPA fellowship, for sure.Sonja: Oh, that's excellent. So I also know you're a lead luminary for CPESN Kansas. What does the luminary do? I see that word come up all the time, and I'm honestly not 100% on what it is.Dared: Yeah, yeah…so CPESN, obviously, is the Community Pharmacy Enhanced Services Network. So, it’s those pharmacies that are going above and beyond doing things beyond just dispensing prescriptions. So almost every state has a local network. CPESN USA is the umbrella and every state has a smaller network. CPESN Kansas has a local leadership basically and we have five or six luminaries in Kansas – that’s kind of the leadership for the CPESN group. We do things like we try to get contracts for our members. We have 80 or 90 members in Kansas right now. Try to work with third parties to get paid on the medical side on a lot of things. We have one program right now that’s about to roll out with a state managed care organization with the state and they’re having trouble with the health risk assessments. The state requires them to get a certain percentage of their people to do their health risk assessments every year. And they’ve always struggled to get that done. What better place to partner than pharmacy, right? All of their members coming into our stores to get their prescriptions. At that time, we can help them complete their health risk assessments. Those kinds of things CPESN does, we look for those opportunities and partnerships and try to make pharmacies money doing the enhanced services they’re already doing a lot of times.Sonja: I feel like that’s really elevating the profession, right, in the eyes of other professions out there like medical and things like that maybe didn’t maybe consider you know with all of the education you guys do and the rotations involved with that. I think there is so much value pharmacists bring to communities way beyond filling prescriptions. So I think it’s really cool what CPESN is doing in each of these states and the ways that you guys can then advocate for the profession is excellent.Dared: Absolutely. Patients see their pharmacists 35 times a year on average and see their physician 3. So we have way more access to patients and patients have way more access to us. So how can we help in that whole medical pharmacy relationship with the patients? But we have to get paid for it. Pharmacy has done things for free for way too long. So we have to figure out how to get paid for a lot of the things we haven’t been in the past.Sonja: And state need to recognize a lot of that work is being done and should be paid for. So I’m excited for that work to continue too. I’ve got one more question for you. I know you have also served on your local hospital foundation. How has serving on that maybe opened your eyes to the broader problems facing healthcare today?Dared: Especially rural hospitals. Rural hospitals are facing some of the same problems that pharmacies in general are facing. Bad contracts. Under reimbursements. Things like that. They’re fighting and scraping for every dollar as well. Unfortunately the way our country is set up right now…patients are suffering because health insurance is as much as it ever has been. Providers are going out of business left and right. You hardly see a physicians office anymore owned by local physicians anymore. It’s all part of bigger health systems now, right? I think Optum/ United Healthcare is the leading employer of physicians in the country. They’re getting extinguished or extinct just like pharmacies are. Unfortunately. So it’s been cool because we’ve found ways to work together – especially during COVID. We had great partnerships with our local health resources the hospital and local health departments as well. COVID showed us how important those local partnerships can be. Renee and I really try to stay as active as we can in the community to try and find partnerships. What’s really cool is the hospital uses our PBM also. We were able to cut their drug spend by 50-60% which helped them stay in business you know? It’s those types of things when you serve on a Foundation or any capacity for any of the nonprofits around town a lot of times you find partnerships that provide value to both the organizations and the people in the community. It’s been a great experience.Sonja: Sounds like a very valuable thing for pharmacists to look into if they’re not already involved in their community in that way. Seeing if there’s places like that where they can serve.Dared: Absolutely.Sonja: I really appreciate your time today, I feel like a learned more about you. I felt like I already knew a lot, but I learned even more. Thanks for joining us on Script Your Future.Contact InformationLinkedIn: Dared PriceEmail: [email protected] SummaryIn this episode of Script Your Future, host Sonja Pagniano sits down with Dared Price, a Kansas-based pharmacist who owns eight pharmacy locations and co-owns Oread Rx, a transparent PBM that's disrupting the traditional pharmacy benefit management industry. This episode offers hope and practical solutions for pharmacy owners facing today's challenging landscape, proving that with the right strategies and partnerships, independent pharmacies can not only survive but thrive. 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IntroductionHost Sonja Pagniano, Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, interviews guest Dr. Diana Arouchanova, PharmD, APh, Owner of Clinicare Pharmacy and APP Care Center in Northridge, California. The episode celebrates Diana's 20-year journey in pharmacy ownership, exploring how she transformed a small neighborhood pharmacy into an innovative advanced practice care center. Diana shares her patient-centered approach that goes beyond traditional dispensing, discusses her pharmacy residency program partnership with USC Alfred E. Mann School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, and reveals how community pharmacies serve as essential healthcare lifelines during and after emergencies. Her story demonstrates the evolving role of independent pharmacy in integrated healthcare delivery and offers insights on training the next generation of pharmacists.InterviewSonja: Hi, this is your host for the Script Your Future podcast, Sonja Pagniano, the Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation. I am so excited to bring today's guest, Diana Arouchanova. She is coming to us from California. Diana, how are you?Diana: Thank you. How are you?Sonja: I'm good, thanks. So, tell us a little bit about your pharmacy and where you're located.Diana: Thanks for having me, first of all. It's such a pleasure and fun to be here. And thank you for the warm introduction. So… I am… an advanced practice pharmacist. I practice in the state of California, and I own and operate Clinicare Pharmacy, an advanced practice pharmacy care center. Since actually 2005.Sonja: So, we're coming up on your 20 year anniversary in December, right?Diana: Exactly.Sonja: That's incredible. Congratulations on 20 years of pharmacy ownership this year. Can you tell us a little bit about what advanced practice means, especially for me as someone with no pharmacy background at all? …I'd love to learn more.Diana: Sure. So advanced practice pharmacy is relatively a new term, not that new, but relatively new term in the practice of pharmacy.And in California specifically, we actually have a separate licensure category right now for pharmacists with advanced training who can take certain classes and pass certain examinations, post-residency and whatnot, and actually be also licensed as advanced practice pharmacists. These are people with advanced training who actually do things outside of traditional dispensing practice. Before even advanced practice pharmacy was a thing, um, in, within our profession, um, couple of decades ago, there was something that I thought, um, was important for me to do.So, I have, introduced that in my practice when I founded Clinicare. So, I was not just seeing patients for traditional pharmacy prescriptions you know prescriptions would come in 20 years ago people would walk in that doesn't happen much anymore because everything is e-prescribed nowadays every single prescription for me was an opportunity to actually interact with the patients and see beyond that prescription, look at the patient as a whole.…I started doing that. I realized that that's the only and the best way to connect with the patients. So, I also started collecting a lot of data to see how are these interactions, my interactions with patients beyond that prescription on those prescriptions were actually affecting the patients too.It was looking at their overall health and outcomes.…Even before we started working under our many now collaborative practice agreements and before I got licensed as an advanced practice pharmacist many years ago, I was already practicing in that realm because I think that's the only way any pharmacist can actually have that really fulfilling experience. profession and practice at the top of their license is being part of that integrative team.Advanced practice pharmacy isn't just a term. I know a lot of people look at it as a fancy term, but I think that's how every pharmacist should be working and practicing, irrespective of the setting they're in.Sonja: Very very cool…I know it's becoming more common now, especially for students wanting to pursue pharmacy in that way, making sure that they're really serving the whole patient and not just dispensing medications. And some of them don't realize that you can do that through pharmacy ownership. So it's really great to hear that perspective that you've had, especially over so many years, like already doing that work. And it really just now starting to become recognized more in the profession. I think it's very exciting. And I think it really shows how important these pharmacies are for community-based health care access.I'd love to hear from you…Speaking of students, I understand you guys have a residency program. I'd love to hear how you got that started. What inspires you to continue doing it? Because I know it's a lot of extra work, right? Also, on the pharmacy owner. But I'd love to hear how you developed it and kind of what makes it keep going all these years.Diana: Great question. I actually love that part of my day-to-day and part of my…work with the students.It is a lot of work.So, it's not just a lot of work. It's a lot of learning as a preceptor, as a pharmacist.It's a lot of giving and taking. So, our residency program is affiliated with USC Mann School of Pharmacy. The partnership started in 2011. So, I have trained many, many residents already. Some years we had two that I have supported, but usually we have one resident every year. And obviously it's an ASHP accredited program.So we go through the whole, you know, the process of matching and training and rotations. And I'll go in more detail about exactly what the resident does here at Clinicare. But this was a few years after founding Clinicare where I after working with some of the students, mostly fourth-year students through their APPE rotations, I realized that we get an incredible education at school. I'm myself a USC alum. So we get really great education.But there was a component that was missing, was really the practical component where the students would come to their APPE rotations And, you know, as soon as you graduate, you're ready to practice as soon as you pass your license. I mean, you pass your boards once you're licensed. But a lot of them did not have the practical experience on mostly being alone. So you graduate your license, then what?So I thought, again, this doesn't mean everybody has to do residency, but I think everybody should do residency…unless they had really incredible working experience throughout their four years of pharmacy school and they have been exposed to a lot of practice settings, which in pharmacy, they're actually countless. It's not just patient and ambulatory care, right? So I've realized that a residency program where a resident will come in and actually practice whilst somewhat being under the supervision of an experienced and licensed pharmacist would be a really good way to train future generations of pharmacists. So I really wanted to also change that mentality that once you graduate, you're stuck in community, you're stuck in inpatient, you're it's… Even if you're stuck, which in reality you're not, you can do so much within your practice setting. I really wanted to basically open up some minds and show them that the possibilities are really endless. It wasn't difficult because, like I said, I'm an alumni of USC. I was already training students. I met with then my professors, now colleagues, now friends, and we decided to actually serve as a residency site. And the rest is history. So we had our first resident. Most of my residents, not most- I want to say all of my residents, practice in the settings where they've intended to practice, you know, even before the residency. You know, a lot of them are in academia. Many of them are in M Care settings, pharmacy ownerships...It's really across the board. What was really, really great in having the residents here on site was them really seeing everything real time. It's everything was, you know, you know, patient interactions, whether it was clinical appointments or in the outpatient pharmacy, they would really see the true patient cases, not textbook, not on the rotations. It was longitudinal. You know, a lot of times when you have APPE students on rotations, it's only six weeks blocks.It's very exciting when they start, but by the time they've connected with patients, The rotation is up and they have to move on to their next site.With residency, it's different.They get to actually manage patients. They get to connect with these people and really...manage their diseases. So that was one of the main things I wanted to do, precepting and residency. And for me personally, it's also a never-ending learning, which I absolutely love.It really keeps me on my toes. I get to sit down with my residents and discuss, you know…future of the pharmacy and just learn with them.Sonja: That is so incredible that you have really taken your passion for the profession and figured out a way to continue to make sure that the next generation kind of carries that on. And even if they don't end up in ownership, right, even if they end up in a different part of pharmacy practice, like you said, it's so versatile. And just because they're doing something else right now doesn't mean that pharmacy ownership isn't at all in their future. And now they have a better understanding of what is possible, too, within pharmacy ownership. So, I think that is so key for like a well-rounded student experience to have those opportunities. And it makes me really happy that those are available in your area.I know you mentioned your outpatient pharmacy. I'm curious. I understand it's part of the HealthMart franchise.I'm wondering for new pharmacy owners, like what what are maybe some of the benefits of being part of a franchise like the HealthMart or a Good Neighbor Pharmacy or those kinds of things? And how has that helped your pharmacy growth?Diana: So my outpatient pharmacy is how Clinicare started.It was a small neighborhood pharmacy in a small, very small location. which was me, myself, and my patients. So it's my little baby, will always be.And it's very dear to my heart. And everything really started in, I call it outpatient, but it's really a community-based pharmacy. It's really that community pharmacy that invited people that, in all honesty, were tired of not having community pharmacies, you know, In 2005, this was a year after I graduated pharmacy school, when I founded Clinicare, people were actually looking for community-based pharmacies because there were few pharmacies in our area that have closed.And, you know, bringing a new pharmacy with a young pharmacist at a time was something really fresh and important.And they were actually my best...advertisers that people would come in and go bring their neighbors, bring their families.That's exactly how it truly was and is a community-based pharmacy.So it started small. Obviously, we grew. But in the process of the growth, I think I found it was important to be part of, we started as a good neighbor pharmacy. And then a few years after that, we have switched wholesalers, which as you know, both of those entities are part of wholesalers. Healthmart is part of McKesson Corporation.So I want to talk a little more about Healthmart only because we are part of Healthmart right now.And I think for new pharmacies who are opening up, new pharmacists who are actually opening up pharmacies, it is important to join these entities only because of the resources that they provide. As pharmacists, we're very resourceful. We can find a lot of things. We can find a lot of information.And CPHA is a great resource, too.As a member, I can say that throughout the years, and NCPA also provided a lot of invaluable resources to me as a member. And some of the things that you just need to look up, they're available to you as members. So these are basically resources and you don't have to use one or the other. You can pretty much use all of them because that's what's going to help you grow. And it's networking. It's really opening up more ways to network with other pharmacists, other pharmacy owners, other pharmacy administrators. Like I said, pharmacists are such a versatile profession that you can really... You can do a lot of things with the education and the license that we have. And with these entities, you just pretty much network. Yes, they offer resources [and] training. They help you kind of navigate the very challenging health care system specifically as it applies to pharmacies these days. But to me, it was about networking, learning from others and resources.Sonja: So, thinking back to when you were first starting out like 20 years ago, what do you remember were like the most challenging aspects of starting your pharmacy?Diana: So, for me personally, I was part of a managed care health system network.That's where I went. I was an interaction within Kaiser Permanente system…for four years, I've seen pretty much everything within the closed network of Kaiser. And then as soon as I graduated, they promoted me. They put me in charge of one of their largest pharmacies. And it was fun. It was a lot of fun for about a year managing a pharmacy that had 75 employees, 2,000 scripts a day. It was chaotic fun, something that I thrive in.Um, but then I realized patient care was kind of disappearing. So it was, you know, I was too caught up in the operations, which is also, I love. So I was like, okay, how do I stay with patients, but also around operations? So the idea of Clinicare, um, you know, was born when I first started looking into opening up, uh, a private practice, it was terrifying because I had no idea what I was doing. So I went with the process. I did it all by myself. Um, and it was the process of, you know, trying to understand the laws, the regulations, the contracts.…I think for me, the contracts were the scary part because at that point you had to decide, do you join this large insurance companies? And… PBMs were just, you know, rising up during those times.Again, this was 20 years ago…Do you join them alone?Do you join them as a part of a PSAO, pharmacy services administration organization, which actually is what HealthMart is?You know, their app in the HealthMart Atlas is our PSAO. So for some, we have to do separate contracts because it made sense operation wise. For some, most we have to go through a PSAO.So, to me, I think it was the insurance world. That was the most terrifying one. But then that really becomes secondary when these people start to walk into your pharmacy, and they really need help. Because you realize that they're far more confused than you are. So, you kind of put all of that aside and you really concentrate on helping the patient first. Then those things come up. And of course, were there challenges where, you know, people needed something, but the insurance wouldn't allow? Yes, many, many.I mean, now it's far worse, to be honest with you, than it was before. But, it was really, I was able to overcome those challenges by always looking at who and why I'm coming to work every day.Sonja: Do you feel like that transfers to now, like in present time? Cause I'm sure you're still facing challenges as a pharmacy owner, as is probably like the whole nation still. But I'm wondering if that, that passion for patient care still kind of carries you through.Diana: …you know, no matter what, like I'm going to stick through this and I'm going to try to make this happen in whatever way I can for my patients. So in all honesty, yes, if it wasn't for really the community and the patients, it's very difficult to own and operate a community-based pharmacy these days.I mean, this is a subject for another podcast probably, and I can talk for hours and hours and hours about all the problems pharmacists and pharmacies are facing these days. In 2010, 2011, almost 10 years ago, I've already sensed the direction the profession was going into payment-wise, payment system-wise. So I was like, what do we do to stay in business and continue caring for our patients?And that's how the whole idea of clinical services, advanced services, and integrative practice was born. So I kind of switched gears while still maintaining and hopefully will continue to maintain for many years to come our community pharmacy. The integrative part is what really helped me overcome some of the challenges that we have today. I mean, nowadays, we still have to make a very tough decision operation wise and patient care wise. Obviously, we take care of every single patient. We find other ways for them to get the care they need. But sometimes the you know, it's not to our benefit, but as long as it benefits the patients, that's what matters.Sonja: It kind of breaks my heart a little bit, you know, that we have to make those decisions, especially as business owners in a health care setting between a patient's well-being and the operations of our business. I do wish those things were better integrated, even like on a policy level and systematic level. I think it's definitely something that needs change and needs change soon.But I I'm constantly the eternal optimist to a fault. So I will continue to see a light at the end of the tunnel.But okay, speaking about, you know, kind of the things pharmacies endure and go through, we've done disaster relief grant making since our founding in 1953. And we know there were the fires in California, not too long ago, really. And fires every year really in California are a consistent issue. I'm wondering for like emergency planning for your pharmacy, like what are some things that you've maybe done or considered and then like how do disasters like that impact your pharmacy?Diana 19:23: So as healthcare professionals, we have to be here for our patients. So, you know, it's whether there is a fire or not, we are at work, we're helping people. Disasters on a smaller scale happen almost every day. People have, you know, small problems and they come to pharmacy because, you know, they need the care. And this is the first place a lot of people come, which is why I feel that it's almost essential for community pharmacies, true community-based pharmacies to exist, right?…We were interestingly, what happened, the way we were able to help our community is during the buyers earlier this year, we had more patients needing non-traditional services than just, we had people who had to come in and get their emergency supplies because they had to leave their homes and they didn't have enough medications or they lost medications in transitions of care.But we also had a lot of people who couldn't get, it was right before schools were restarted for the second semester. So a lot of students and a lot of children needed vaccinations. You know, their pediatrician's offices were closed there or they didn’t have…couldn't order things in time because of the supply chain issues. And, you know, we are a full vaccination. We have an international travel clinic and a full vaccination site pharmacy.We actually were able to help community and kids go back to school with some of the missing vaccinations and things like that. So there is always something that we come through with. And it feels great when people come in and, you know, it's not just the medications that you're giving them or a lot of people would come in and they didn't have anything. This happens often also when there is…I remember 2020 during the pandemic, the way we operated, it was never stopping operations. It was very challenging, but at the same time, very rewarding. And there are always problems. You're helping them, but a lot of times you have to go through so many loops.Uh, they come in, they, all they know is their medication and the dose. They have no idea. They can't remember where they were getting it. So you have to try to get hold of their doctor's offices, which a lot of times, you know, they're closed. So there's so much behind the scene work that goes on, um, that you do. Um, but again, it's to help the people, to help the community.Sonja: And see, I think these are all things that if you're not there, you don't know it's happening. And so, or like if, if you don't need it, you don't know it's something right. That someone in your community help provide for you.And so it is so important.I think that we as everyday people. So like speaking of people like myself who aren't in the pharmacy industry, that we remember that community pharmacy, especially these small business pharmacies in these communities, play such an important role. And if they're not there, who are we going to be able to go to in times of crisis? Because like you said, they are the most accessible health care provider. They're the easiest to get to a lot of times. A lot of them do have these clinical services now,So, they can do a lot more aside from the usual things. And I know for when my kids enter school, vaccines are going to be so crucial. And if I can't get into a pediatrician's office because there is some kind of a tornado or something in my area, I would hope that I can go to a pharmacy.So, I think it's so incredible that over these 20 years, you’ve experienced just about every facet, I think, of what a pharmacy owner can experience. I am also curious, though, professional development wise, we don't always have time. Especially like as a leader in your field; being able to take time for professional development, maybe part of like State Pharmacy Association and things like that.[What] are some ways that you stay involved as a professional in your field? And what advice do you have for people who are maybe struggling to make time for it?Diana: So the time will always be the struggle. I am a mom. I have two kids. I'm very involved in their school. You know, I've been a homeroom mom at their school for as long as I can remember, probably a decade. I do a lot of things in the 24 hours that I have, sometimes, you know, at the expense of not sleeping. And the time is...struggle, but you can always make time if you want to. So as far as professional development, two things are very important. Staying connected in your local associations, I think, is very important. I am an active member of California Pharmacists Association (CPHA). I serve on a couple of boards within CPHA.I have been awarded the, you know, last year with the Innovators Award, and it was, you know, it's…It's you really have to make time for these things.You know, when you are really passionate about the work that you do, you can always find time and then you can always do things as a team. You can delegate within your team if you have a really good team of pharmacists and technicians who actually believe in the work that you do, who see the same thing you see. And, you know, the vision is the same. It's the common vision. It's not that difficult to actually find the time for things. So being involved is very important. Networking also is very important. And, you know, networking a lot of times helps with, you know, we're unable to do certain things…Like we offer...consultation services so for new start pharmacies um you know sometimes people think it's just filling out an application sending to California Board of Pharmacy and you know sitting and waiting right there's so much that goes with that so you know finding people who know what they're doing you know, taking advice from people who have been through this and know how to get through red tape, if there is any, being open to new ideas. A lot of times as pharmacists, we, especially nowadays, when we complain about the difficulties in the profession and the struggles, we always talk about the change, right?But that change doesn't happen when we only complain. That change really happens when we become part of that movement and we, we have to become that change. So if I don't like certain things in my home today, I make a change there. The same concept applies within a profession, right? If I don't like certain things at work, I have to really make that change.You know, I very often meet in our clinics, we have weekly meetings because it's…It's a very fast moving, integrated practice because we work with other health care professionals, medical groups, physicians. So we're constantly meeting to see how do we meet everyone's expectations because we are taking care of their patients, our patients, our mutual patients. Same within our community pharmacy. I'm very hands on. I am not the main pharmacist who dispenses the medications. But I know every single patient, every single patient today. I know who they are, but the name doesn't sound familiar. I try to go and remember something about the patient so that I know who they are. So really, this is part of professional development, too. Professional development isn't just staying up to date with your new medications and your guidelines and the standard of care. All of the all of these little things add up and you really are part of the overall professional development. These things are the things that make me stay on top of my clinical knowledge, too, because I …you just have to be very hands on.Sonja: And I like I like that you said that, too, because I think sometimes we overlook the way that we're developing in our profession because we're in the moment. We're just doing it. But we're not thinking about how that's actually growing our skill set.And I think it's so poignant that you said that, like, even just knowing every patient of your pharmacy, and if you don't know them, taking the time, making that extra effort to know them and remember them. I think that's incredible and is really, really great advice, especially for new up-and-coming pharmacy owners and even as people in the profession…I think that kind of thing can also help keep you passionate about your work and keep you positive about it. Because it is, it's about these patients. It's about the lives that you're impacting.I'm curious about…so going back to your partnership with USC Mann, I'm wondering if there are...types of rotations and learning experiences that came from that initial partnership with them that maybe you kind of helped inspire? Or if those were kind of things that you modeled off of things that were already happening or anything like that?Diana: I love this question. Actually, so when we joined USC Mann's community-based residency program, we were at the time, the only community-based pharmacy, independent pharmacy, partnered with USC, like I said, over a decade ago. In addition to going with the ASHP standards, because you have to follow the standards, students or the pharmacy residents, they have to be licensed within a few months of residency program. They have to go through the minimum requirements of the rotations and the teaching experiences. But what we brought into the program, which is still is very unique and innovative. I guess, hence my excellence in innovation award. It was the fact that we are really truly practicing at an integrated pharmacy owned by an independent pharmacist. Because a lot of times when residents are in a residency program, they're used to being in health systems. So, for a lot of the students and then residents, they don't realize that the same ambulatory care services where you see the patients after they've seen their physicians and you're managing disease states. For most, at least back then, and even sometimes now, for them, that's only possible if you're part of the healthcare systems, right? They don't really see that this can actually happen in a community pharmacy that's owned and operated by a pharmacist. So that was a very unique perspective and a unique setting that we brought to the residency program. Also, our partnerships with physicians, small and large medical groups, as well as hospitals, was something very unique that residents didn't realize.Even now, during residency interviews, they ask me, you know, the website lists all these things that you guys do as part of the residency program. So, the resident actually asked transitions of care. And the answer is yes.So - It's really cool to know that you can do these things, but it's another thing to actually come and do these things… when residents come and they see this as a community-based pharmacy, it's a private practice, but yet you're seeing patients across California and you're managing their diabetes, or people are transitioning care and they're going from hospital to skilled nursing facility or their homes, and you're the person who's managing and reconciling those medications. It's a really cool thing to have in our practice. And that's something that all of our residents are exposed to. So, we have really, I think, closed…I want to say… a lot of the gaps in a community-based residency program. Because when...And I'll be honest with you…20 years ago, to me, community-based residency was community-based pharmacy.You go, you spend a whole year at a community pharmacy, you see patients, you dispense medications, you do some, you know, maybe basic clinical services, point of care testing, hormonal contraception and whatnot. But it's so much more than that. It's really so much more than that. You can actually...And the fun part is that you see the patients from start to finish. Most of these people will hopefully graduate within a year. Their diabetes is controlled, their blood pressure is controlled, and we graduate them. So, residents become part of that. And I think that's one of the things I am proud to bring into the residency program with USC Mann.One thing that I will mention is being part of the residency isn't just about having a resident on site. A resident is not an extra staff that you're going to have who's going to help you.Yes, residents are very helpful…You know, once they're licensed, they're a licensed pharmacist. So, they're able to do a lot of things independently. But the most important thing about the residency program, which is why I think it's also challenging because it takes up a lot of my time especially in the beginning there's a lot of hand holding there's a lot of training and by the time you're done doing that the residency year is over um so that's the reality, but I think the advice I would uh give is um make sure that if you do commit to this is a huge commitment it's a financial commitment.Because you're supporting the resident and it's a double financial commitment…because it's… it's your time that you're committing too. But if you commit to such an adventure, if you will, it is important to remember that you need to train this resident to really believe in the work that you do. So, when your resident is done, they don't just say, okay, I just did it because it looks good or cool on my resume, my CV, right? I want this resident and all of my residents; I keep in touch with every single one of them. About four or five of them still work here because we've retained them. The residents really need to feel and touch, like really feel that passion that you have and just carry it with them, even if they don't stay at your pharmacy…It's very important that they know why I'm doing this. And, you know, anyone who really wants to support a residency program really needs to do it for the advancement of the profession.Sonja: I think that is so, so positive, though, too, because I think it speaks to our mission of promoting the sustainability and growth of independent community pharmacists, because I do agree with you, like even if a person that you're cultivating right along this pathway to ownership, even if they go off of it for a little bit, they should know, right, that they have the base knowledge that the network, the skillset, whatever it is they need to be able to come back when they're ready. And so, I think it's so powerful that we have mentors out there like you who are doing this important work and making sure that these young pharmacists are equipped to continue community-based health care for the entirety of their career journey. So really props to you. Congrats on your award that you received.How can our listeners reach out to you if they want to connect?Diana: I'm pretty active on Instagram. So that's the only social media I have time for. Definitely, you know, reach out through Instagram. I run the page. It's not run by a third party. It’s me behind the scenes on that account. It's a public account. They can reach out to me through email if they want. It's also listed on the Instagram account. Actually, my contact information is there too.Community pharmacist work is really irreplaceable.And sometimes when I hear like even in California, you know, I'm again, I'm very active within our legislative system. Also, it's very challenging. I constantly talk to patients. I educate them. I tell them how important it is to always be in touch with their representatives. I am in touch with them also. The work that we do is really irreplaceable. And because not having the pharmacist who can actually sometimes catch mistakes that happen in the care. Sometimes find that really, really important drug-drug interaction that everyone is busy.Sometimes we catch things that were not caught in the doctor's office. That doesn't mean that the doctor's offices don't care. They do.But everyone is extremely busy and is sort of caught up in the chaos of the healthcare system. So, having us as part of the whole patient care team is essential because this is where the dispensing happens, right?A lot of times when I'm talking to students in our clinic during their MTM rotations or during their ambulatory care rotations, you know, when they talk about pharmacists practicing as part of multidisciplinary teams, I always remind them when a patient, if you are in an end care setting and a patient comes to you, and they don't have the right medications that they are going to bring in a brown bag or their medicine box.What are you going to manage? Like what, what medications are you going to manage? If they lose their access to care, if they're unable to get their medications timely, then you are affected too. It doesn't matter that you are an advanced practice pharmacist. We have to really look at everything from a patient's perspective.Sonja: Well, Diana, thank you so much for speaking with me today. It was such a pleasure to get to know more about you and your journey and the things that you're doing at your pharmacy. Congrats again on 20 years of pharmacy ownership this year.We are so excited for you, and we hope we get to talk to you again soon. Thank you so much.Diana: Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.Contact InformationLinkedIn: Diana Arouchanova, Pharm.D., APhInstagram: ClinicarerxEpisode SummaryIn this episode of the NCPA Foundation podcast, host Sonja Pagniano celebrates Dr. Diana Arouchanova's 20-year milestone as owner of Clinicare Pharmacy. Diana shares insights from her decade-long partnership with USC Mann School of Pharmacy, where she created a unique community-based residency program that trains pharmacists in real-world, longitudinal patient management rather than textbook scenarios. The conversation covers practical advice for new pharmacy owners while also revealing how Diana’s pharmacy supported victims of the California wildfires, providing emergency medications and vaccinations when other facilities were unavailable. This episode offers essential insights for current and aspiring pharmacy owners on building sustainable practices through clinical services, community partnerships, and mentorship—all while keeping patients at the center of care. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

IntroductionHost Sonja Pagniano, Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, interviews guest Josuah Tilus, Owner of Chinook Pharmacy in Forks, Washington. The episode focuses on Josuah's journey to pharmacy ownership and the experiences that led him to ownership, right out of pharmacy school.InterviewSonja: Welcome to the Script Your Future podcast from the NCPA Foundation. I'm Sonja, the Executive Director of NCPA Foundation, and today I'm excited to be joined by Josuah Tilus. Josuah, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us today. Where are you joining us from?Josuah: Thank you so much, Sonja. I'm coming from Forks, Washington, out in the Pacific Northwest. I just came back from The Cascadia Pharmacy Group's ownership meeting, so I'm coming back supercharged, ready to get back into the action, back in Forks in my store.Sonja: Excellent. Well, I know our listeners will be eager to hear your story of becoming a pharmacy owner right out of pharmacy school. But before we dive in, could you tell us a bit about yourself and your background that initially led you to pursue pharmacy?Josuah: Yeah, so I'm originally from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, so pretty far away. Both of my parents are from Haiti, and they came to America to give my sister and I a better life. My mother's a home care nurse, and that's kind of how I got exposed to the pharmacy profession. After shadowing her for a day, I recognized that I probably don't want to be a nurse in the future. It's just a little too hands-on for me. I don't mind doing that for my immediate family, but it's a tough job.Sonja: Sure.Josuah: Not for everybody, but I was really fascinated by the medications. Seeing how does this little pill affect the body, for better or for worse, and I asked what profession does that? And she said pharmacy. That was back in fifth grade, and ever since then, it was pretty much set. I know a lot of people kind of experiment with a lot of career paths, and I did too in high school, but it was pretty clear pharmacy was the way for me.Sonja: That's very, very cool that that started so early for you.Sonja: So you're quoted in our 2024 annual report saying that your dream of pharmacy ownership began when you stepped into a pharmacy about seven years before. What was it about that experience that first sparked your interest in pharmacy ownership?Josuah: Yeah, so the pharmacy I went to was Atlantis Pharmacy in Lake Worth, Florida, in a subsidy called Atlantis. Ever since I came in, it was awesome that the owner and all the other pharmacists and even the staff knew everybody by name. It was really cool that they connected with the community and they really served them well.But I also liked the business side. The fact that if my boss, Dr. Damian Simmons, wanted to make a change, he would just talk to a couple of the techs and talk to one of the pharmacists and implement it that day.Sonja: Oh, wow.Josuah: Instead of, you know, months or years of red tape to eventually get told no. I just love the nimbleness of independent community pharmacies. Specifically, we're like the jet skis versus the big cruise ships of the big chains. We can bend, we're more nimble, and we can really serve our population better. I love the fact that I get to serve patients, but also build a great system. That duality of the business and the patient care is what I loved. So I knew that what my boss was doing is what I wanted to do.Sonja: That was a great analogy of the difference between the two. I always say that as well. I feel like independent community pharmacies can be so much more nimble. And I mean, we see that with our work with disaster relief. They're the first ones out there getting stuff running again.Sonja: So what inspired you or gave you the confidence to pursue pharmacy ownership directly out of pharmacy school?Josuah: Yeah, when I first thought about ownership and how to do that, most people were like, "Well, you want to work in a chain for 10 years, get some experience and some capital, and do all that."Sonja: Right, right.Josuah: Even thinking about it now, it was really part of what the foundation does. The foundation provides some scholarships for students to go to the ownership workshop. I did that as a first-year because I knew I wanted to be an owner and needed to find the people who do that. That's how I found NCPA and found that scholarship to go to the ownership workshop.I'm a 2020 start for pharmacy school, so we started in COVID. That workshop was actually virtual.Sonja: Oh, so also the COVID situation affected you.Josuah: Yes, that's also woven into my story. But it was the last day, and they had a Q&A session with people from the McKesson RX ownership team. I asked, "Hey, I'm a new student in pharmacy school, really want to own a pharmacy. I've been told it takes like 10 years and all that. What's your perspective?" A couple were like, "That's usually wise," but a couple of them said, "No, you can actually own earlier and there are models and junior partnerships and things to allow access earlier."05:45: They kind of inspired me to say, "Hey, if there's even a 1% chance that this can happen right out of school, I'm going to dive in for it and see if it happens. And if I don't meet the stars, I'll land on the moon. I'll get someplace great." They really catapulted me to say, "Okay, we can do this right out of school."Sonja: That's definitely unusual to go to the ownership workshop so early as a pharmacy student, but how lucky were you to do that? And during COVID when things were virtual, to have the courage to ask the question of "Is this possible? Can I do this?"Josuah: Oh yeah, praise God it's been... I didn't even really think until now - that was really a seed in my brain. I think they saw that and thought, "Hey, there's this ambitious young kid. You don't know where this will go, but if we can help him along in the journey and kind of light a spark and ignite something..." And honestly, they really did.There are some other people in NCPA like Ken Thai out in California, who's on the board of NCPA as well. He said, "Hey, I started owning a pharmacy in my second year after graduating, and my only regret was not doing it right when I got out."Sonja: Okay, so that was probably a really good mentor for you too.Josuah: Yeah, I did a rotation with him in my fourth year. I got to see the 986 Pharmacy Group as well. They're really innovative and expanding quickly. I got to do about five business plans with him, so he really helped me build a business acumen of how to look at a location, analyze the financials, and analyze whether this is a good store to buy or not, which really helped me.Sonja: Now, I know the ownership workshop was several years ago for you, but do you remember some specific aspects of it that were really helpful to you as you were going for ownership?Josuah: Honestly, I actually went twice. I went as a first-year, and then knowing that ownership was more imminent in my fourth year, I went again.I'd say for anybody thinking about it, especially students, I definitely highly recommend the ownership workshop. It not only gives you some of the skills and tools, especially if you don't have a distinct business background (I was blessed with an MBA), but even with that, there's still a lot to the business of pharmacy and buying a pharmacy - what the banks are looking for, what the lawyers are looking for, the team you need to grab and get ahold of. The workshop provides a really solid foundation for what anybody will need to own a pharmacy. That’s the main piece, and that’s awesome.And then there's the networking - getting to meet some 20-plus store owners, hearing their experience of ownership and what it's really like to own. They all say the hardest part about ownership is the ownership of ownership - that everything ends with you.Sonja: Yeah, it's all your responsibility.Josuah: So if the lights go out or there's a break-in, it's yours. You can't just clock in and clock out - it becomes kind of like a child. Their insight and perspective, as well as the perspective of the people around you, it’s the beauty of school. In school, you're not alone in your journey - there are classmates that you get to fight through school together with.In the same way, the ownership workshop creates a little class of people who are all going to fight this beast of ownership together. I'm still in contact with four or five of us who were around my table. We connect and text back and forth with questions.So between the raw teaching the education part of the ownership workshop and the networking, I'd say it's a class I've done - I've done every ownership-type education besides POLA as a student, and by far the NCPA RxOwnership workshop had the highest ROI in terms of prepping me for ownership besides my MBA.Sonja: Excellent. So speaking of NCPA and NCPA's ownership workshop, what was your experience like with the student chapters at NCPA that eventually led to you becoming the student leadership council president?Josuah: Yeah, so it's funny. NCPA was a very small chapter at my school when I first came, but I thought, "Hey, these are the independent people, so these are my people." At the end of my first year, the current president of that student chapter pulled me aside and said, "Hey, our entire e-board is P3s, all of us are going to go into P4 year, our last rotation year, and we don't have anybody else on the e-board besides you, our P1 liaison. Would you mind running for president?"I was like, "Hey, this would be awesome." I think we grew our chapter from about six people to about 30 in three months, so we grew by like 500%. Honestly, running a chapter is like a microcosm of running a business, and it taught me that I love business and management.I realize there are two kinds of work - there's the work that’s good work, but still feels like work, and when I was building a program or preparing for a speaker or preparing to speak, I would lose myself in that, so I knew I found a passion of mine through the NCPA student chapter - I love management and I love people, and what can I do to build a system to make the team more successful so… at the end of the day, it's not about me being awesome because I built this chapter - it's really about the group of six of us that got us to that point. Seeing where they all are now - a couple are in residencies, a couple are junior partners or about to buy a pharmacy - and seeing how all of them became successful through the one year that I got to work with them.I knew I was built for management, and that's how I met Carlie Traylor.Sonja: Oh, okay.Josuah: Yeah, she was the Director of Student Affairs and Strategic Initiatives at NCPA at the time. I think she moved to McKesson, but through that experience, I met her, and she showed me that what I was doing at the local level was awesome, and she could see my passion for independent community pharmacy.From there, I got invited to apply to the Student Leadership Council, which I'd still say, and I tell every student to this day, well, it got me this pharmacy, so in terms of ROI, is the highest ROI experience as a student, is really the networking I got with the 16 other students around the country, learning how to run a bigger operation…really catapulted me to solidify that I’m built for administration, leadership, and management. I wouldn’t trade those moments for the world.It also got me into conferencing. I think my final number from the four years in school was about 31 conferences.Sonja: Oh my gosh, that's so many.Josuah: And I know at least a third of those were NCPA.Sonja: Wow. So you definitely dove right into all of the different resources that are available to you, especially in terms of networking. Like you said, those connections you make are priceless, and you never know when one door is going to open up to another one.Sonja: So I have to know, though, how you managed to grow the student chapter so exponentially. Was it just that no one had ever really taken the time to ask people to join, or what was the recipe for success there?Josuah: Yeah, as you work, you find your strengths. I'd say the highest ROI for growth was our career fair. Usually, people approach career fairs with all the alphabet soup organizations.Sonja: Yeah, yeah.Josuah: And all the first-year students are like, "What is all going on?" The main thing we focused on - I usually had a bigger group, about five people instead of the usual one or two to show presence.Sonja: Okay, so you're like, it doesn't matter that this is half our people.Josuah: Yes, it's who shows up that matters. And my goal wasn't to sell our organization - it was to guide students to their future in whatever ways we could. That meant for maybe 20% of people who came to our booth, we were actually pointing them to other booths.Sonja: Okay, okay.Josuah: And that's okay because the point is not to sell us - the point is to help them find their future. Actually, more people respected that about us because they thought, "Hey, these guys just care about us."Sonja: Yeah.Josuah: "They just care about us and our future. Even if it's not with them, we had a great conversation with this little NCPA team, and community pharmacy doesn't seem that bad."From those conversations, and showing that, and having very concrete benefits - we had programs where they would know or meet an owner by the end of the year, have an experience, get connections to future employers, so a job could be in the pipeline. When we had tangible benefits that we knew the students needed (we also offered community service hours at our school; so you could get 2 hours with us serving the homeless), so with a concrete operation behind us, people saw that this wasn't just a bunch of smiling faces - there was substance behind us. We looked active and we cared about them.I've noticed even as a hiring manager now, the best way I motivate my employees is that I have a good system around them so they feel supported, and I care about them. With that, we pretty much got about a third of the first-years that year.Sonja: Yeah, you're building trust and relationships as an honestly expert relationship builder, because that method you were talking about is actually what's recommended for fundraising.Josuah: Exactly.Sonja: 17:56 Because it's not so much about raising the funds for your organization - it's about showing how much you care about the mission and the work that you're doing. Whether you're a student representing a chapter or you're an owner of a pharmacy, when you are true to those values and the work that you're doing, it's contagious. People want to be part of that. So that's truly a testament to you also just as a person having that natural gift. That's incredible.Josuah: Thank you. And it's honestly fun - it's awesome to see people grow in that way. Even now, thinking of the 30 students and where they all are now - a lot of them didn't end up in independent community pharmacy, but a lot of them have a respect for it and know we're not just retail, which is one of our main goals at NCPA. We're not the big chains - we really are the beautiful hybrid of community and patient care [with] the clinical side too.Sonja: Let's set the scene. Your pharmacy is pretty rural, right? So my understanding is it's the only pharmacy within 50 miles of your community.Josuah: Yes, the other pharmacy is about an hour and 15 minutes away.Sonja: Okay, so what drew you to establish a pharmacy there?Josuah: Yeah, finding that pharmacy was a testament to the connections through NCPA. I didn't really know about this store at all and wasn't looking for rural healthcare - I just stumbled upon it.As an NCPA SLC member, we get to be on some of the national committees to get exposure to the main operations of NCPA and kind of where they are going. The first day when committees start, they fly everybody out to DC. We meet as a group, talk about different initiatives in the committees, and then have dinner afterward.At that dinner, there were about 20 of us in the group. I was in the developing opportunities committee, honestly with the top 1% of innovators in community pharmacy all at the same table. I remember there was this really tall guy sitting across from me - didn't know him, just chatting. As the SLC president, I had told pretty much the entire board and everybody I knew, including Carlie, that I wanted to own right out of school, so if they knew anybody who is selling, let me know.That really tall guy, Jeff Harrell - I think the current NCPA board president...Sonja: Yeah, current NCPA board president.Josuah: Just looked at me out of the blue - never met him - and said, "Hey, I think I have a store for you. I'll help pay your loans. I'll give you a good salary and equity in the business if you can move 3,000 miles away."Sonja: Oh my gosh.Josuah: I was like, "Tell me more. Where is it?" And I was thinking, "Is this real?" He said, "Yeah, look up Forks, and we'll talk tomorrow." And afterwards, he talked about being an owner and the opportunities you can get. That night, we got home around 11, and from 11 to midnight… I'm looking up Forks…I'm like, "Okay, this is besides Twilight. What's the demographic like?" And I thought, "This is actually really cool." We talked about it the next day, and he explained that when you're so rural, insurance companies play nicer with you.Sonja: Good point.Josuah: Because if you say no to their plan, they essentially lose access to that region. And we serve three tribes as well - the Makah tribe, the Quileute, and the Hoh tribe.Sonja: Okay.Josuah: The tribes you need to play nice with as well. From there, I was like, "Okay, I need to see it." I'm a Florida guy, so if I'm going to move...Sonja: Right, right. You're talking Washington state versus Florida. That's so different geography-wise.Josuah: And it's funny because I'm a pretty simple guy. All I need is a church, a gym, a bed, and a desk, and I could pretty much live anywhere. But the only thing I asked was, "I just don't want Montana snow. I don't want to have to shovel snow for 20 minutes before I can get to work."Sonja: Okay.Josuah: And he said, "Well, good news, there's no snow. There's just like 130 inches of rain a year."Sonja: Right. There's so much rain.Josuah: I thought, "I think I can deal with rain."Sonja: But Florida has rain too, doesn't it? So I guess it's comparable.Josuah: Yes, it's different though. Forks is like a constant mist that doesn't end for several months. Florida's like a downpour at two o'clock for the four months of spring - that really muggy, humid…Versus here it's dry but wet, if that makes sense - just not humid. So he flew me out there during December. I made sure to visit during the more undesirable time in Forks.Sonja: That's smart. That's just like what they say about buying a house - make sure it's on a really crappy day so you can see if there are leaks or other issues they're not disclosing.Josuah: Exactly. The old owners at the time, Chuck and Pura, really showed me the beauty of Forks, the lay of the land, and the cool opportunities you can do here.The beauty of Forks is that there are only a few providers in the area, so they're all very close. I've already had dinner with a couple of PAs, so there's really strong collaboration. All the innovative practice models that they talk about - collaborative practices, - things I learned through NCPA - point of care testing, leaning into long-term care at home - all of that was ripe because the pharmacy was doing well enough just running on script filling and vaccines. So it's fertile soil for a lot of innovation.That, along with being in the Cascadia Pharmacy Group, which is a group of about 40 stores now, is incredible.Sonja: That's incredible.Josuah: 25:48 Besides the innovative practice, it's also the mentorship. I am a new grad, 25 - I bought a store at 24. There is a lot of life and experience that I don't have. Even if I could just buy a store on my own in Florida and maybe get mentorship for a couple of months from the old owner, the sheer volume of resources and support that Cascadia Pharmacy Group has is really second to none.It made it almost a no-brainer when I thought about the financial support, the opportunities I could have as a manager to launch my [clinical services], and really take care of this community in a unique way that's never been seen before. The support from Cascadia Pharmacy Group made it a no-brainer to go for this store. It's not that I didn't have opportunities in Florida - I think I had about five opportunities to buy there.Sonja: Okay.Josuah: But when I looked at this opportunity in Washington state, it was almost a no-brainer. I thought about it, prayed about it, and everything was leading in that direction. It became a "why not" at that point.Sonja: Mm-hmm. Yeah.Josuah: At that point, I'm like, "Okay, let's do it."Sonja: I think there's a lot to be said for following your intuition. I think, and this is just my personal superstition, but I feel like our bodies tell us when things are right or wrong. We get that feeling of inspiration and hope and drive, or we get that feeling of dread and fear and caution. Following that is probably pretty wise because nine times out of 10, it works out, as it has for you.Josuah: Yeah, I've noticed fear is a smokescreen. It keeps us from where we need to go, and when we lean into it, when we force ourselves to walk through that smokescreen, you realize it's not that bad, and you find the rewards on the other side. For me, it was like, "I guess we're going to move to someplace I never knew, with no connections besides the current owners but…why not dive into a challenge, make some new friends, be uncomfortable?" From there, I knew I'd grow a lot, and this community would be served better by it.Sonja: So talking about serving that community and what it means to you, what unique responsibilities do you feel now towards this place, especially as a pharmacy owner?Josuah: I remember the first day that I bought it, August 30th, and it felt like getting sat on by an elephant - the slow weight of responsibility.Sonja: Oh, no.Josuah: Yeah, the 3,300-plus lives that live in Forks directly rely on the services I'm giving, because if you have a sick kid, you don't really want to travel an hour and a half.Sonja: Right, exactly.Josuah: So what we get to do here, really be[ing] a point of access for them, is huge. But what's more poignant to me as a manager is that I have 10 to 15 staff members, and the business directly funds their lives.Sonja: Yeah.Josuah: Business decisions that we make, for better or worse, affect them. Of course, they don't have as much risk, but if I make a poor financial decision, they can be affected either directly by patient backlash or indirectly by things like less of a bonus.I was taught early that my first patient is the employee. Because I can only serve so many people...Sonja: Okay. Yeah.Josuah: But if I take care of my staff, they will take better care of the people they serve.Sonja: That is great advice.Josuah: So as a manager, I'm unusually HR-focused because I want to make sure every person feels valued and supported, that we're building them as individuals while meeting our goals as a company.The reason why people don't like chains isn't because they don't have an efficient system - they're quick with what they do. But they build their success by exploiting their staff. I feel like a great company should use the dreams and strengths of their staff and build a system to become successful because of those. So people come to work energized and enthusiastic - it's a motivation that I can't even build in them. It comes from them because they know they're not just here to fill scripts or type things, but because this is the best place for their future, and this company is sold out on helping them get there.So I spend a lot of time, and my managers spend a lot of time, making sure we're helping build our employees personally and professionally so that whether they're here for five months or 50 years, they got better as individuals because of their time here.Sonja: Well, you give me hope for the future. How do you envision your pharmacy evolving over the next five years?Josuah: In Forks, for this pharmacy, it really is a matter of when. All the advanced payment models, clinical services, point of care testing, maybe even expanding into primary care - it's all ripe here because there's a primary care issue. There aren't enough primary care providers in the area; the shortage is very poignant here. Most Forks patients are seen by doctors in Port Angeles, not here.Sonja: Okay.Josuah: So there's a gap. We're working with the hospital right now to see how we can fill this gap. Maybe we're doing point of care testing for the easy stuff to allow them to take more of those complex patients, maybe it's helping with refills, building an AmCare clinic, or just building a clinic itself.Sonja: Right.Josuah: There are a lot of avenues I can see us going into, especially with our partnership with the tribes, doing more long-term care at home. For me as an owner, I'm like, "There are so many cool things I can do."Sonja: Yeah, like a kid in a candy store. Like, where do I start?Josuah: I probably should sleep! But I know at least for the immediate future, we're going to start with flu point of care testing. It's a small town, so we don't want to take away from the hospital and urgent care business, but rather augment them.Sonja: Yeah, give them time to focus on the bigger stuff.Josuah: Exactly. We're formulating exactly what that looks like, but I think we all agree that in order to keep a bigger system from trying to come in and meet that need, we can meet that need together through various levels of partnership.Sonja: Yeah, collaborating and partnering, which you seem to be an expert at. So I know you'll for sure do great navigating those relationships.Sonja: Well, Josuah, thank you so much for joining us today. How can listeners connect with you if they're interested in learning more about your journey?Josuah: Oh, yeah. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and maybe I can send those to you, Sonja, and you can put them in the show notes.Sonja: Yeah, that'd be great.Josuah: Connect, especially if you're a student listening to the podcast and thinking, "Hey, I kind of want to do ownership too, how does that work?" feel free to send a message. If you love community pharmacy and you’re passionate about that too, feel free to connect with me. Sonja: Terrific. Thanks so much.Josuah: Yeah, thank you, Sonja. Hope you have a great rest of your day.Contact InformationLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josuah-tilus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jtilus24/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JosuahTilus/Email: [email protected]: 954-504-1069Episode SummaryThis inspiring episode of the Script Your Future Podcast with host Sonja Pagniano, Executive Director of the NCPA Foundation, showcases how networking, mentorship, preparation, and the courage to seize opportunities, can lead to success in pharmacy ownership, even at a young age. Josuah's story, at just 25 years old, demonstrates that with the right support systems and mindset, pharmacy ownership directly out of school is not just possible but can be a pathway to meaningful professional fulfillment and community impact. Josuah Tilus, owner of Chinook Pharmacy in Forks, Washington, shares his remarkable journey of becoming a pharmacy owner immediately after graduating from pharmacy school. Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe

Producer's NoteThis is our first podcast episode for the NCPA Foundation. We're aware that the audio quality has some room for improvement, and we'll be working to enhance the sound in future episodes. Thank you for your understanding as we develop this new platform for sharing pharmacy stories and insights.IntroductionHost: Sonja Pagniano, CFRE, Executive Director, NCPA FoundationGuest: Sam Smith, pharmacy student at Mercer University graduating in MayTopic: Community pharmacy passion and entrepreneurshipSam's Journey to Community PharmacySam was initially interested in hospital pharmacy. He started as a pharmacy technician at Publix Pharmacy while completing his prerequisites. During this time, he discovered the joy of working in a small team setting, building relationships with regular patients, and following up on their medications and lives. After experiencing the hospital environment, Sam realized it wasn't for him as he missed the patient relationships. He deeply values being "the most accessible healthcare provider" in the community.Networking in Independent PharmacyAs a self-described introvert, Sam benefited greatly from "forced networking" opportunities at school. A pivotal moment came when he met an independent pharmacy owner at a school reception near his white coat ceremony. He also connected with independent pharmacists on faculty and in other contexts. Sam emphasized how these small moments and connections significantly changed his career path.NCPA InvolvementSam joined NCPA during his P1 year after attending a school organization fair. He became more involved in his P2 year, focused on recruiting other students. At the time, he noticed community pharmacy was "on the downtrend" compared to industry and hospital positions, which motivated him to show others the impact community pharmacists could have. A significant eye-opening realization for Sam was that clinical services traditionally performed in hospitals or doctor's offices could be effectively translated to community settings. His leadership progression included becoming chapter president at Mercer and later applying for and joining the Student Leadership Council.Passion for Independent PharmacySam appreciates the ability of independent pharmacies to pivot quickly to meet community needs. He cited examples such as independent pharmacies' quick adaptation during COVID and their rapid implementation of expanded scope of practice in various states. He values the responsiveness of independent pharmacies and their ability to make immediate impacts on patient health.Work-Life BalanceSam acknowledges the essential support from his wife, a clinical nurse manager who works full-time while helping manage their three children. She even completed her master's degree while Sam was in pharmacy school. His keys to balancing responsibilities include meticulous scheduling and time management, setting clear priorities about when to be a dad, husband, or student, learning to say no to some opportunities, and appreciating the flexibility that independent pharmacy practice offers.NCPA Foundation SupportSam received multiple scholarships from the foundation and attended the Pharmacy Ownership and Leadership Academy (POLA), which he described as a "pivotal moment" in his pharmacy career. Before POLA, Sam knew he wanted to be an owner, but was afraid. After POLA, he gained the confidence and tools needed, saying "I knew I could be an owner."Sam also participated in the NCPA Business Plan Competition, competing before attending POLA and feeling much more confident afterward. The business plan development process, which can reach up to 60 pages, forced him to answer detailed questions about implementing new services, creating financial projections and sustainability plans, assessing community impact, and considering demographics and insurance factors. He received valuable feedback from independent community pharmacists through this experience.Future Pharmacy VisionSam dreams of creating a "health hub" pharmacy that meets specific community needs, potentially including compounding services, geriatric medication management, and home health delivery options. He envisions a central resource where patients can get healthcare questions answered, be directed to appropriate providers when needed, and receive basic care services such as COVID testing and TB tests. Sam plans to network with local healthcare providers including doctors, dentists, and veterinarians, and aims to equip his pharmacy technicians as community health workers.Challenges and OpportunitiesCurrent challenges Sam faces include waiting for the right time to enter the market, navigating a difficult environment to start a pharmacy from scratch, and ensuring financial stability. However, he sees many opportunities in his future Tennessee location: a growing community extending toward a major city, new healthcare facilities opening including dermatology practices and a hospital satellite campus, and the potential to meet needs of patients currently traveling to larger cities for care.Advice for Pharmacy StudentsSam encourages pharmacy students to network extensively, noting that "pharmacy is a small world" which should be used as an advantage since each connection leads to more connections. He recommends joining professional organizations, especially NCPA, to discover niche opportunities not covered in pharmacy school. Finally, he advises students to put in extra work to develop ownership skills, as pharmacy school typically focuses on clinical skills rather than business acumen. He suggests using resources like NCPA and POLA and finding mentors to guide the journey toward pharmacy ownership.Contact InformationLinkedIn: SamSmithRxEmail: [email protected] Get full access to NCPA Foundation Newsletter at ncpafoundation.substack.com/subscribe