We Chat Divorce Podcast

In this episode of We Chat Divorce, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan sit down with Chicago family law attorney Jessica Marshall for a candid conversation about what really protects you during divorce — and where people often put themselves at risk without realizing it. Jessica shares an attorney’s perspective on why clients sometimes leave good lawyers, how poor communication can derail trust, and why financial preparation can completely change the attorney-client relationship. Together, Karen, Catherine, and Jessica explore what happens when clients walk into divorce without understanding their documents, assets, compensation, or long-term financial consequences — and why attorneys are not always the right professionals to explain the full financial picture. The conversation also dives into the growing use of AI in divorce. Jessica explains the risks of relying on AI-generated legal documents, inaccurate case law, unsupported conclusions, and AI-driven “diagnoses” around narcissism or coercive control. While AI can be a useful tool for education and question-building, this episode makes one thing clear: it should never replace professional legal or financial guidance. You’ll also hear an honest discussion about attorney hopping, when switching lawyers may make sense, when it may raise red flags, and why the duration of the case, the number of attorneys, and the reason for the switch all matter. This episode is a powerful reminder that divorce cannot be navigated passively. The more financially clear, organized, and prepared you are, the better equipped you are to communicate with your attorney, understand your options, and make informed decisions about your future. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why hiring an attorney does not automatically mean you are fully protected How communication issues between attorneys and clients create confusion and mistrust Why financial clarity helps your attorney advocate more effectively The difference between legal advice and financial analysis in divorce The dangers of relying on AI-generated legal documents or strategy Why AI can be a helpful tool for questions, but not a substitute for professional guidance What attorneys may consider when a client has changed lawyers multiple times How preparation helps you move from emotional reaction to informed decision-making Guest: Jessica Marshall is a family law attorney based in Chicago, Illinois, known for her strong advocacy, courtroom confidence, and commitment to protecting clients and their children through complex divorce and family law matters. Connect with Jessica:Website: IllinoisLawForYou.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is inherited money really "yours" in a divorce? Not necessarily — and the details of how that money was handled can make or break your case. In this episode of We Chat Divorce, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan tackle one of the most misunderstood topics in later-in-life divorce: inheritance. Sparked by a recent Business Insider article on how baby boomer divorce is "rerouting inheritance" and reshaping retirement, Karen and Catherine break down why common assumptions — "it came from my parents, so it's mine" — often don't hold up once documentation, commingling, and state law enter the picture. They cover: Why inherited property isn't automatically protected, and how commingling and transmutation can change everything The three categories of documents you need: source documents (wills, trusts, probate records), path documents (account statements, deeds, business records), and forward-looking documents (tax returns, beneficiary designations, prenups/postnups) Why "spreadsheets are not source documents" — and what actually holds up in a settlement The unique financial stakes of gray divorce, where inheritance and retirement often overlap and there's less time to rebuild The emotional side of inheritance disputes — caregiving, expectation, and adult children's role (or lack thereof) in a parent's divorce How one inherited asset can ripple through an entire settlement: affecting home division, equalization payments, cash flow, support, and taxes Why estate planning — beneficiary designations, retirement accounts, life insurance, powers of attorney — needs review after divorce, especially when generational wealth is involved Karen and Catherine's bottom line: inheritance in divorce isn't just about where the money came from — it's about documentation, title, use, tax consequences, and long-term stability. Before you agree to divide or waive anything tied to an inheritance, get the full financial picture first. Referenced in this episode: Business Insider, "Baby Boomer Divorce Boom Reshaping Retirement Savings, Inheritance for Millennials" By Emily Stewart — https://www.businessinsider.com/baby-boomer-divorce-boom-reshaping-retirement-savings-inheritance-millennials-2026-6 This conversation is for educational purposes only and is not legal, financial, or tax advice. Every state handles divorce and inheritance differently. Please consult your attorney, financial advisor, or other divorce professional before making decisions. Learn more at MyDivorceSolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is what you’re experiencing actually gaslighting? In this episode of We Chat Divorce, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan sit down with narcissistic abuse expert Tracy Malone — author of Divorcing Your Narcissist — to answer that question with real examples, practical tools, and language you can use right now. Tracy explains what gaslighting actually looks like in practice — not just the definition, but the tactics, the phrases, and the specific ways it shows up in high-conflict divorce. She walks through DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender), explains why gaslighting targets your greatest strengths, and shares why the pattern intensifies the moment you file. Catherine also shares from her own experience — including how she kept a detailed journal for years before her divorce, and how that documentation became her anchor when her reality was being contested. IN THIS EPISODE: What gaslighting actually is — and why the word alone isn’t enough DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender (and why Tracy calls it “the love language of a narcissist”) Why gaslighting targets your greatest strengths (and Tracy’s Home Depot story) How gaslighting escalates when you file for divorce — including with the children, attorneys, and judges Financial gaslighting: “There is no money” and other phrases that keep victims stuck The story of a woman married 29 years who discovered mid-divorce they were multi-millionaires Why documentation is your most powerful tool — and how Catherine used a journal before her own divorce How to use financial statements to counter financial gaslighting without accusation The recovery work after gaslighting: guilt, shame, self-doubt, and rebuilding Why financial clarity and emotional independence go hand in hand FREE COMPANION RESOURCE Download “Is This Gaslighting? — A Reality-Check Guide” Signs checklist DARVO explainer Incident log & financial tracker Phrases to protect yourself Next steps checklist ➡️ MyDivorceSolution.com/gaslighting-guide 📝 READ THE COMPANION BLOG POST Gaslighting in Divorce: How to Recognize It, Document It, and Protect Yourself ➡️ MyDivorceSolution.com/blog 🔗 ABOUT TRACY MALONE Tracy Malone is a narcissistic abuse recovery coach, educator, and bestselling author. Website: narcissistabusesupport.com 🔗 ABOUT MY DIVORCE SOLUTION Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan help individuals gain financial clarity before, during, and after divorce — so decisions are made on verified facts, not contested narratives. Website: MyDivorceSolution.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After 200 episodes and a decade of helping thousands of individuals navigate one of life’s most difficult transitions, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan step back from the typical divorce topic to explore the deeper patterns they have witnessed over the last 10 years. The biggest realization? Divorce was never only about divorce. It has always been about clarity. Too often, the financial disconnect in a marriage begins long before anyone contacts an attorney or files paperwork. It starts when one person manages the finances, assumptions replace conversations, and financial transparency slowly disappears. In this special 200th episode, Karen and Catherine share the most important lessons they have learned from working with more than 5,000 clients across all 50 states. They discuss why financial preparation should be a lifelong practice—not a divorce task—and why trusting your spouse should never mean losing your own understanding of your financial life. They also reveal the costly mistakes they see repeatedly in divorce: relying on spreadsheets instead of verification, assuming an attorney will create financial clarity, entering mediation without complete information, and making life-changing decisions before understanding their long-term impact. Whether your marriage is thriving, struggling, or already ending, this conversation is a powerful reminder that financial knowledge creates confidence, options, and better decisions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When people think about divorce, they often assume they can just "choose" an uncontested process. But what most people don't realize is that uncontested divorce requires more than goodwill — it requires preparation, financial transparency, and a clear understanding of your legal rights. Without that foundation, the most well-intentioned divorces can quickly become expensive, adversarial, and emotionally devastating. In this episode of We Chat Divorce, hosts Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan are joined by Renee Turner, family and matrimonial attorney and founder of Thoughtful Lawyering in New York. Renee draws on more than 13 years of legal experience to walk listeners through what uncontested and contested divorce actually mean — not just in theory, but in practice. From financial disclosure requirements and New York's maintenance cap to prenuptial agreements and co-parenting dynamics, this conversation covers the legal landscape that every divorcing person needs to understand. Catherine brings in the financial preparation angle, explaining how the MDS Financial Portrait gives clients the verified financial clarity they need to confidently enter — or switch out of — an uncontested process. Together with Renee, Karen and Catherine reinforce one of the most empowering messages in divorce: you are the employer. Your legal and financial professionals work for you. In This Episode The legal definition of uncontested vs. contested divorce in New York Why the court system's scheduling creates delays — and how the uncontested process avoids them What a marital settlement agreement is and when it's negotiated New York's maintenance cap and how lifestyle analysis can change the final number Financial disclosure in uncontested divorce: what is required, what can be waived, and what you're risking by waiving it The myth of "I know what we have" — why most clients discover gaps once the process starts How to switch from uncontested to contested (and back) — and when it makes sense Why you should never sign any document without fully understanding it How the uncontested process protects children from courtroom involvement What it means to be the employer of your attorney — and why asking questions is your right Key Takeaways Uncontested divorce requires agreement on all major issues: property, custody, support, and maintenance — without a judge deciding for you. You can always switch from uncontested to contested if you feel your rights are not protected. Don't let fear of "starting over" trap you. Financial preparation — verified, document-supported clarity about what you have — is what makes uncontested divorce truly safe and successful. New York's maintenance cap is not the final word. Lifestyle analysis and standard of living can support amounts above the cap. Never waive financial disclosure without knowing exactly what you're giving up — and having documentation to support that decision. You are the employer of every professional you hire during your divorce. Question everything. Ask for clarity. Take the time you need. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A divorce settlement agreement may be the most important document you'll sign during your divorce—and one of the least understood. In this episode of We Chat Divorce, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan unpack what a Divorce Settlement Agreement (also known as a Marital Settlement Agreement or MSA) actually covers, why so many costly mistakes happen at this stage, and how to protect yourself before signing anything final. While mediation and negotiations may produce broad settlement terms, the formal agreement is where those terms become legally enforceable. Unfortunately, many people discover after the fact that critical financial details were never fully addressed. Missing assets, vague language, overlooked tax consequences, retirement account errors, and unrealistic real estate provisions can create expensive problems long after the divorce is finalized. Karen and Catherine explain why understanding the financial implications behind every provision matters just as much as understanding the legal language. They share real-world examples of agreements that appeared fair in the moment but later created confusion, conflict, and unintended financial consequences. If you're approaching mediation, reviewing a settlement proposal, or preparing to sign a Marital Settlement Agreement, this episode will help you understand what questions to ask before making one of the most important financial decisions of your life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If divorce is something you've been thinking about — even quietly, even just as a possibility — this episode is for you. Karen and Catherine sit down with Cindy Stibbard, certified relationship and divorce coach and creator of the Relationship Audit, to explore what it looks like to approach one of life's hardest decisions with intention, preparation, and clarity rather than fear or reaction. Too many people wait until they're in crisis before they start gathering information. But there's a better path. Cindy shares how her research-backed Relationship Audit helps individuals get an honest, data-driven picture of where their relationship stands across 12 core areas — from values alignment and emotional safety to finances, intimacy, and trust. When paired with the MDS Financial Portrait, people have both the emotional and financial picture they need to make a truly informed decision: whether that means investing in their marriage, pursuing a post-nuptial agreement, or moving toward divorce with a clear and intentional plan. The conversation also covers why how you begin the divorce process determines so much of what follows — from legal cost to co-parenting outcomes — and why getting the right experts involved early (financial first, hen legal) changes everything. Whether you're still deciding or already preparing, this episode gives you the tools and perspective to move forward thoughtfully. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Divorce mediation, settlement conferences, and court-mandated hearings are among the most searched — and most misunderstood — steps in the divorce process. People want to know what to bring, what happens in the room, and what it means if things don’t settle. But there’s a critical piece most people miss: mediation is not the place to discover you don’t have the documents, don’t understand the numbers, or don’t know whether the proposed settlement actually works for your future. In this episode of Divorce Explored, Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan break down what these meetings actually are, what the mediator’s role really is (and isn’t), and why financial preparation before mediation can change the entire trajectory of your divorce. They also pull back the curtain on the pressure tactics that often show up at the end of mediation — the threat of trial, high retainer demands, and even attorney withdrawal — and explain why the only real protection against that pressure is walking in financially prepared. In This Episode The difference between voluntary mediation, attorney-recommended mediation, and court-mandated settlement conferences What the mediator, judge, and conference officer can and cannot do with your financial information Why “exchanged” doesn’t mean “verified” — and why that gap is where costly mistakes happen A real spreadsheet this week that was $400,000 off — and what that means in mediation The pressure tactics that appear at the end of mediation and how to be ready for them Why fear and exhaustion are not settlement strategies How the MDS Financial Portrait changes the quality of the conversation before you walk in Key Takeaways Mediation is not magic. It does not create financial clarity — it reveals where clarity is missing. The mediator’s job is to get you to a settlement, not to verify your numbers or find what’s missing. The better question going in is not “Can we agree?” It’s “Do we understand what we’re agreeing to?” Fear is not a settlement strategy. Exhaustion is not a settlement strategy. If you’re calling for help two days before mediation, reschedule. Want to go deeper? Read the companion blog post: What to Bring to Divorce Mediation — and Why Financial Preparation Changes Everything Download this episode’s free companion resource: The Mediation Readiness Checklist — six things to know before you walk into that room. Visit mydivorcesolution.com to learn how the MDS Financial Portrait helps clients prepare for mediation, settlement conferences, and the financial decisions that shape their future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when silence becomes survival? In this deeply personal and powerful episode of My Divorce Solution’s We Chat Divorce, co-founders Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan sit down with licensed psychotherapist, relationship expert, and author Colette Jane Fehr for a conversation about emotional suppression, financial vulnerability, and the hidden cost of staying quiet in marriage and divorce. Colette shares her own divorce story — from a marriage that looked “perfect” on the outside to navigating emotional disconnection, postpartum anxiety, financial uncertainty, and fear-driven decision-making during divorce. Together, they unpack how silence often shows up as avoidance, people-pleasing, emotional suppression, and fear of conflict — especially for women navigating major financial and life decisions. This episode explores why so many people stay quiet about money, avoid difficult conversations, and enter divorce negotiations without fully understanding their financial reality. The discussion also highlights the emotional patterns that keep people from advocating for themselves — and how financial clarity can become one of the most empowering tools in divorce preparation. You’ll hear honest conversations about: Emotional safety and communication in marriage Fear of asking financial questions The connection between silence and financial vulnerability Why financial clarity changes negotiation outcomes The danger of making decisions from survival mode Reclaiming your voice during divorce Building emotional and financial independence after divorce How unresolved patterns from childhood impact adult relationships Why preparation matters before legal negotiations begin Colette also discusses her new book, The Cost of Quiet, which explores how self-silencing impacts relationships, emotional health, and personal empowerment — and how learning to communicate directly and vulnerably can change the trajectory of your life. Throughout the episode, Karen and Catherine reinforce a core message of MDS: Divorce is a legal process — but financial in impact. This conversation is for anyone: Considering divorce Feeling financially overwhelmed Afraid to ask questions Struggling to advocate for themselves Trying to decide whether to stay or leave Wanting to prepare before making major legal or financial decisions If you’ve been living in silence, this episode is a reminder: You are allowed to ask questions. You are allowed to gather information. You are allowed to reclaim your voice — at your own pace. Learn More About Colette Jane Fehr Colette Jane Fehr Official Website The Cost of Quiet About My Divorce Solution My Divorce Solution helps individuals and families prepare financially for divorce through expert analysis, verified financial data, and strategic preparation before negotiations begin. Their signature process, the Divorce Financial Portrait™, provides clarity around assets, liabilities, income, expenses, and settlement scenarios so clients can make informed, confident decisions during divorce. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Summary Alimony is not a formula. It’s not a calculator output. It’s not what your friend got. In this episode, Karen and Catherine explain what actually goes into evaluating spousal support — and why financial clarity before negotiation is the difference between a settlement that holds up and one that falls apart in six months. The Right First Question Most people ask: “What number should I expect?” The better question is: what financial information needs to be in place before this conversation can responsibly happen at all? Support is not a number. It’s a relationship between two households after divorce. Until you understand both households, any number is a guess wearing a lab coat. What Really Drives Alimony Spousal support analysis depends on more than a W-2. Key factors include: • Length of the marriage and marital lifestyle • Full income picture: bonuses, commissions, K-1s, distributions, equity comp, passive income • Post-divorce expenses for each household • Assets — which produce cash flow vs. which just sit there • Debts each spouse is taking on • Earning capacity and time out of the workforce Property division and support are the same conversation, not separate rooms. What someone keeps — and what it costs to keep it — directly affects what support has to look like. Why Calculators Only Get You Partway There Online spousal support calculators are a starting point — not a strategy. They don’t verify documents, review bank statements, or account for variable income. They don’t know whether bonuses repeat, whether income is partially held inside a business, or whether the lifestyle being used as a baseline was funded with debt. Calculators are only as good as the data going in. In divorce, the data going in is almost never complete on day one. How Long Does Alimony Last? Duration depends on state law, marriage length, type of support, and more — your attorney is the right guide there. But the more useful financial question is: what happens when it ends? Scenario modeling shows both households month by month, year by year, so cliffs and gaps surface before the settlement is signed — not six months after. The Documents That Matter Most • 3 years of personal tax returns (with all schedules and K-1s) • 12 months of bank and credit card statements • Paystubs and bonus history for both spouses • Business tax returns, P&Ls, and distribution records (if applicable) • Current statements for every account: retirement, investment, loans, equity comp Without these, you’re negotiating from memory. With them, you can start asking the right questions. In This Episode • Why the support number is the tip of the iceberg • How business income hides inside W-2s and distributions • Why AI tools and calculators are education, not analysis • How scenario modeling changes negotiation from fear to information • A practical document checklist to start gathering this week My Divorce Solution has helped 5,000+ clients across all 50 states gain financial clarity during divorce through the MDS Financial Portrait™ and the We Chat Divorce podcast. www.mydivorce-solution.com This episode is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of We Chat Divorce dives into a critical but often misunderstood reality of high-conflict divorce: truth alone is not enough—how you organize and present information is what ultimately matters. Karen Chellew and Catherine Shanahan are joined by family court strategist Courtney Gil Martin, who shares her firsthand experience navigating nearly a decade of post-divorce litigation. Together, they unpack why so many individuals feel frustrated in court despite having “proof,” and how disorganized documentation, emotional overwhelm, and lack of strategy can weaken even valid claims. The conversation reframes documentation as more than just saving emails or journaling experiences—it’s about building a structured, usable system that supports your case, your attorney, and ultimately the court. Courtney emphasizes the importance of creating a centralized “case hub,” where timelines, evidence, and financial records are organized in a way that allows for quick access, clear narratives, and strategic use. This approach not only strengthens credibility but can also reduce legal costs by making it easier for professionals to advocate effectively on your behalf. Karen and Catherine connect this concept directly to the financial side of divorce, highlighting a key distinction: not all information leads to a meaningful outcome. Emotional events, past behaviors, or even perceived injustices may feel important, but without a clear purpose or legal relevance, they can create distraction rather than impact. Instead, they encourage listeners to focus on what data actually supports their goals—whether that’s custody, financial settlement, or long-term stability—and to approach documentation with intention, not reaction. Ultimately, this episode reinforces a powerful message: confidence in divorce comes from clarity, not emotion. When you are grounded in facts—organized, accessible, and aligned with a defined outcome—you shift the power dynamic. You’re no longer reacting to the situation; you’re leading it. And in a system where time is limited and decisions carry lasting consequences, that level of preparation can make all the difference in protecting your future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices