Career Relaunch®

In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Luke Parker, a British Army Officer turned Google Cloud delivery executive shares his thoughts on how professional relationships can open doors and the importance of self-marketing during career transitions. I also share my reflections on the state of modern day friendships and glimpses into.my personal story of how people I’ve crossed paths with in life have had a huge influence on my career. 💡 Key Career Insights Self-marketing matters. Proactively driving visibility for yourself and what you want to be known for can open new doors. Maintaining relationships is critical, but it takes work. You never know what a connection of yours may create for you in the future. Your nontraditional background isn’t necessarily a liability. In fact, it may be the precise reason you’re able to add unique value in environments where people have more traditional backgrounds. ✅ Share Thoughts on Friendship with Joseph 👉🏼Complete friendship survey👈🏼 📚 Relevant Resources A few friendship resources I’ve compiled. I mentioned The ABCs of Networking by Thom Singer who said that if people don’t immediately respond to you, you should not take it personally. 7 Practical Ways To Add Value To Your Professional Network– my Forbes article about giving back to your network During the Mental Fuel® segment, I ended with a quote from Robert Waldinger who wrote the The Good Life: Lessons from the World’s Longest Scientific Study on Happiness. 💪🏼Listener Challenge From today’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d like to challenge you to reconnect with someone in your professional or personal network with whom you’ve lost touch. Start with someone who’s been consistently energizing, helpful, supportive, or even inspiring to you. Instead of just sending a text message or email or LinkedIn message, pick up the phone and call them, send them a voice note, record a video message, or even drop a card in the mail if you really want to change things up. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Epsiode preview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:23 Chat with Luke 00:04:14 Luke’s military career 00:13:03 Transitioning to the private sector 00:18:24 Networking & self-marketing 00:23:31 Life at Google 00:30:06 Antebellum Angels 00:32:44 Mental Fuel®: nurturing relationships 00:39:58 Listener Challenge: reconnect with someone 00:44:22 Wrap-up 👤  About Luke Parker Luke Parker is a Delivery Executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex, Air-Gapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army Officer with over 11 years of service, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers Explosive Ordnance Disposal and Search (EOD&S) teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector. Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ Top 100 influencer and the Co-Founder of Ante-Bellum Angels, a network investing in early-stage defense technology. He also holds a Master’s (Msc) in Geospatial Intelligence, and is a Chartered Engineer (CEng). Connect with Luke on LinkedIn. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Threads, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Luke: If you expect something to happen straight away, then you’re thinking in a transactional networking mindset, which is not a healthy mindset. Networking is a long game. And so the earlier you can connect with someone and the more that you can keep that engagement going, the better. [00:00:16] Joseph: Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, where my mission is to inspire you to pursue more meaningful work. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to overcome the challenges of reinventing your career so you can truly enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame and the lessons they learned along the way. To help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share his story of going from serving in the British Army to working at Google Cloud. We’ll discuss how professional relationships can open doors in your career and the importance of self-marketing during professional transitions. Afterwards, during today’s mental fuel. I’ll share my thoughts on maintaining strong relationships in your career and life. Today, I’m speaking with Luke Parker, a delivery executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex airgapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army officer with over 11 years of experience, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers, explosive ordnance disposal and search teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector. [00:01:30] Joseph: Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ top 100 influencer and the co-founder of Antebellum Angels, a network investing in early stage defense technologies. He also holds a master’s in geospatial intelligence and is a chartered engineer. Now, I first crossed paths with Luke when I heard him speak on a career change panel that followed a talk I gave at Warwick Business School, where he’s completing his executive MBA. I decided to invite him to come on to the show because I thought his comments on the panel really stood out as being very thoughtful and practical, and his perspectives of shifting from the military to the tech sector can be useful to anyone who is considering a major career pivot, but is not exactly sure how to lay the groundwork for your transition. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at careerrelaunch.net/110. Luke spoke with me from London. [00:02:23] Joseph: Hello, Luke, and welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. [00:02:27] Luke: Hey, it’s great to be here. Joseph. Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:31] Joseph: Before we get into your whole career history, I’d love to start off by just finding out what you have been focused on and what’s been keeping you busy in both your professional life and also your personal life. Just to get us started. [00:02:42] Luke: My day job. I am a delivery leader at Google Cloud and that keeps you quite busy on its own. I also am finishing off my executive MBA at Warwick Business School currently. And so my thesis has been submitted in the next 4 to 5 weeks. So every spare moment I’m not working, I’m diligently typing to hit the required word count. On top of that, I’ve got a two year old. For those parents in the listenership that have a two year old, you know that that’s a full time job in itself. But I have a fantastic wife that helps there or does most of the work. [00:03:21] Joseph: Now, I should also mention that you and I first crossed paths at Warwick Business School, and I was doing a workshop on personal branding. I heard you on a career change panel that followed my workshop, and I know that you did talk a little bit at the time about what a. I guess your official title is Delivery Executive at Google Cloud. Could you just give a glimpse into exactly what that means to somebody who maybe isn’t familiar with Google Cloud, or even what a delivery executive does. [00:03:51] Luke: At Google Cloud, a delivery executive leads multifaceted teams delivering the most complex cloud transformation programs. And so although the term has executive, you are not an executive in the formal sense, but it’s a senior delivery role that brings together multiple teams for lighthouse customers. [00:04:14] Joseph: Great. Now, you haven’t always been at Google Cloud, and I would love to just go back in time a little bit. And first of all, just get a sense of where you grew up, where you’re from, maybe a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood. And then after that, we can talk about your time in the British Army. [00:04:31] Luke: I am from Rotherham in South Yorkshire, which is in the north of England. I lived there until I was about 16, so I had a very good upbringing. South Yorkshire is, I would say, quite a deprived part of the UK. The history of the area. It used to be quite an industrialised steel and mining part of the UK, which suffered a lot through mining and steelworks shutdowns. But I think I was relatively insulated from that. I went to a great school at 16. I decided that I was going to join the Army, the British Army. [00:05:08] Joseph: And how did you come to that decision, Luke? Because that’s a big decision to move into the military versus, I suppose, continuing on in your education more formally. [00:05:18] Luke: My great grandfather was a soldier in World War II, and I had his medals and his pictures. I didn’t really ever get to talk to him about his experiences. I was too young by the time he passed away, but I was always really in awe of the pictures and the medals that he had. And I started reading about World War Two, and since then, no one in my family has been part of the armed forces. However, I think we’re a family of service. My uncle and my sister are in the police force. My mum is part of the NHS and so I think service kind of runs in our family and giving back. And I saw my kind of call to arms as joining the British Army. [00:06:10] Joseph: And I understand you would eventually go to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. How do you enlist in the Army? What’s that selection process like? [00:06:19] Luke: There’s multiple routes into the army. The first way you normally go to a recruitment office and you do an aptitude test, which gives you options for what you can consider. And I was lucky enough that my options enabled me to become an officer or to apply to become an officer directly. There’s two routes in as a director, as an officer, or as a soldier. I was presented with the offer to become a, what they call an army bursar at 16. If you pass the selection, they will pay you a small amount to complete your studies up until 18. So finish your A-levels and you go for a weekend and you have a bunch of tests, physical tests, running assault course leadership tests which involve problem solving. It’s all about teamwork and showing leadership potential at that young age. I finished that, I passed, I was given the recommendation that I should become an officer and go to Sandhurst for training when I was of age, which is either 18 or onwards, and I got to 18 so I finished my A-levels and then the Army reached out again and said, we’d actually like to offer you a scholarship and you can go to university and do a bachelor’s degree in a subject of your choice. And as long as you get a 2:1, you can proceed to Sandhurst. [00:07:45] Joseph: I know that you also spent a year doing what I understand is infantry training. Now, I’m not super familiar with how things work in the military or the army. I probably wouldn’t last more than a few hours in any sort of training myself in the military. Can you just give a glimpse into that world? And also the contrast between being out there, doing that sort of military training and then being back in the classroom and how you flipped back and forth between the two. [00:08:14] Luke: After I finished my degree, I went to Sandhurst. Sandhurst was established after the Second World War, and it’s a 44 week training course to regular officers and reserves and international personnel as well. It takes you from a civilian with just the potential leadership attributes into a British Army second lieutenant, which is a junior officer. Over that time, and I wasn’t in the infantry, but they use that as the training vehicle in that it takes someone down to the rawest form of leadership there is, which is commanding a small team of up to 3035 soldiers in arduous, strenuous situations where discipline and courage is paramount, is what I believe to be one of the best ways to train leaders who subsequently want to go and serve in all different parts of the army, but they all go through this same training. And so you are a soldier first and a leader first in that sense. [00:09:25] Joseph: And it sounds like in the military, which isn’t that dissimilar, although it’s a very different world, isn’t that dissimilar from any career path where you’ve got to make a decision about where you want to head. And as you just mentioned, there’s a lot of different options. How did you go about figuring out where to take yourself? I don’t know to what extent you had a choice, but it sounds like you do have some say in which direction to go, and I’d be curious to hear how you went through that thought process of eventually shifting toward engineering. [00:09:54] Luke: It’s split into three terms, and at the end of the first term, you give a bunch of choices that you would be interested in going into when you finish. And at the time, I was really interested in joining the Yorkshire Regiment, which is a infantry regiment, and the other choices were engineers, and I think it was artillery. And after the first term had completed and you spend, you know, multiple weeks out in a ditch, rained on, hungry, tired, you know, your feet hurt. I was like, you know, is this what I want to do? My internal monologue was, I don’t think you would be happy in this role for long. So I started looking. What else? My second choice was the Royal Engineers. I’ve always been a very hands on practical person, and the Royal Engineers have such a breadth of different specialties that you can go into, whether that’s armoured engineering. So tractors and diggers and bridge layers all the way to being airborne or commando or bomb disposal or a diver or light role. So there’s all sorts of different flavours of combat engineer. And I thought that that would give me a fantastic breadth of experience, which if I became disenfranchised with a part of the engineers, you could always reroll into a different part of engineering. So it offered a really flexible career for the long haul. [00:11:28] Joseph: How was that experience overall for you up until this point of being in the military? And I suppose what’s behind my question is trying to get an understanding of whether at this point you saw yourself remaining in the military as an engineer or like, at what point did you start to think that this was maybe just the beginning of something else? [00:11:50] Luke: When I first commissioned, I truly believed that I was going to be a career soldier. A career for an officer spans normally between 18 and 25 years or so, and I thought I was in it for the long haul, especially at the start, because you’ve come out of 44 weeks of hard graft. I don’t think you would last that 44 weeks if you were just in it for like, oh, I’m just here for a couple of years. [00:12:16] Joseph: What made you deviate from that path? And my understanding, when we last spoke before we started recording was that it’s actually probably the most common path to just stay in the Army. So I’d be curious, do you remember the moment that triggered you to then deviate from that path? [00:12:34] Luke: I think it was maybe, I would say, starting to get into, say, 6 to 8 years in. So my early career was great. I loved being at 101. I was a royal engineer search advisor. That person leads a team in trying to locate bombs and IEDs. I left there and I joined a training regiment and I led what’s called instructor troop. So this troop selects the instructors across the Corps, which is arguably one of the most important jobs, being an instructor in the Corps, because you’re bringing the next generation of soldiers through. I then was sent to do a master’s degree in geospatial intelligence, and I started to get a sense of a more technical route and the story that joined the two together. I started to notice when I was in EOD was finding bombs and IEDs as a pattern in space and time. And it’s the linkage between psychology and ground and capability. And that means that you can use analytics to determine where is more likely to be a bomb. I started to hone this skill in, and it started to get me interested in the wider world of analytics and data. That started to get me thinking about what might be out there. [00:14:03] Joseph: I think this happens sometimes, Luke, where you’re in a particular field and you start to get an inkling that there might be something else out there. Was there anything in particular that then convinced you that you need more proactively explore different paths, perhaps outside of the military? And I’m just going to float out. One of the things that you mentioned to me in our last conversation was that I know that you were doing a lot of personal writing when you were in the military, so I’d be curious to hear what role that played and also just how you made the choice to explore something outside of the military. [00:14:36] Luke: My thesis for my master’s was all about spatial patterns of measles outbreak in the UK, and how that was linked to social deprivation around the UK. And I finished that about six months before the first Covid cases hit the UK. And this led to a really interesting opportunity where I asked to be sent UK government to help with Covid response and analytics. That was a really tough 12 to 18 months as most people that lived through that can attest to. For so many reasons. But the work that I did there got me recognition. The analytical processes that I put in place led to me being put on an industry list, which is called the data IQ 100, which is the 100 most influential people in the UK for data and analytics. And that was the first year that someone in the military had been put on that list. But I would find interesting problems that I could solve with geospatial intelligence. And one of them was how we could increase our carbon sequestration across defense estates. We created this model, which showed that you could increase about 16% afforestation rates across most of the UK training estates. That was published in a University of Oxford study, which was fantastic. And it also was the start of me really starting to get recognised by people outside of the military. [00:16:13] Joseph: So it sounds like you managed to drive some visibility for yourself. Part of it was through being on the industry watch list. Part of it was people then starting to notice you. And just to kind of change gears here a little bit as you think now about your eventual shift into the corporate world, if there was 1 or 2 things that you feel you did that opened that door for you. What do you think those were? As you were making that transition? [00:16:40] Luke: I think the first one is self-marketing. My personal view is that people in the military, they do not like Self-marketing. However, I’m a huge believer that we make our own luck, and part of that is being able to get over the initial embarrassment you may feel of marketing your own achievements. Sharing what you have done and achieved. And the second part is networking. So I was very lucky in the industry watch list. I got to network with some exceptionally connected people. But maintaining those connections is hard work, and you just never know where a connection will bring you in the future. I think that that was from my point of view, the pivot to get me out of defense. I promoted to the rank of major and they kind of rules of promotion. Once you hit major, it’s unlikely that you will get a chance to be considered for the next rank, which is a lieutenant colonel for 6 to 7 years. And for me, that was a little bit too slow. I would see that as a stagnation. And so I started having a look outside and seeing what else was there. My thing was I wanted to work in technology. So I reached out to multiple people across technology that I’d met over the last few years, but also were people who had also served in the military. So finding that mutual community group that you share values with, the chances are you already share a bond with that person through the experiences that you’ve jointly had, even if you didn’t serve directly with that person. And they seem to be very amenable to helping one another out. [00:18:24] Joseph: You’ve mentioned a few things there. I’d love to pick up on this idea of networking and also maintaining connections. And one of the questions I often get from clients and audience members, Luke, is I’m reaching out to people and two questions slash concerns come up and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this. One is, what do you say when you’re reaching out to these people? And the second question is around, I’ve met this person. Nothing’s materialized. First of all, how do you reach out and then how did you manage what happened afterwards, especially if what happened afterwards was nothing? How did you think about that in the context of networking? [00:19:02] Luke: I was reluctant initially to start reaching out cold to people. What I started with was posting about things that I was interested in, and actually you find that you get engagement. So if someone likes your post and then you connect with them or they comment on your post and then you connect with them, the chances are that they’re going to accept the connection because they’ve seen what you’re interested in. So I think part of it is be happy. Whatever platform that you’re interested in writing about is start speaking about the things that interest you and everyone. And I mean everyone has something that would be interesting to talk about. Doesn’t have to be what you’re doing currently. It could be something completely different. But if there’s something that you have a passion for, that you have an opinion on, start posting about it and then connect with those people. You know, if someone doesn’t want to connect with you, whether that be LinkedIn or then I would be looking at in-person events. I’ve been told recently that I was old school, but I always carry cards with me. [00:20:06] Joseph: I do too. [00:20:07] Luke: I’ve come away from conferences with, say, like 30 cards. I’ve not done it right away, but the next day I’ll go through them and have a look and make sure that I’ve reached out. [00:20:15] Joseph: Yeah, I think I handed you a card when we first met, and I’m a big fan of business cards and taking some notes on people and then following up the next day on those notes. So that’s something that I always recommend people do. Going back to just the second part of that question is what do people don’t respond? Not even that they don’t respond. But let’s say you meet with them and nothing comes of it. You go, you meet, you have a great conversation. And oftentimes I hear from people, nothing happens after that. How do you think people should think about the idea that things don’t materialize into something concrete right away? [00:20:47] Luke: If you expect something to happen straight away, then you’re thinking in a transactional networking mindset, which is not a healthy mindset, i.e. I met this person, they should do something for me, networking is a long, long game. And so the earlier you can connect with someone and the more that you can keep that engagement going, the better. What I would say is, what’s the phrase don’t put down to malice? What can be attributed to incompetence or something like that? I’m not saying people are incompetent. What I’m saying is people are busy. You never know what’s happening in someone’s life. They may have just missed something. You may have gone to junk. You have no idea. But give it 2 or 3 rolls of the dice. You know, every now and then you send an update after 2 or 3 times if there’s nothing there. It’s clear that they don’t want to talk to you, but the first time they don’t respond. It may have been lost. It may have been a really bad day. You just don’t know. So I wouldn’t put it down to people not wanting to connect. [00:21:48] Joseph: I think that’s a great reminder, I think. Tom Singer in the ABCs of networking, he says that some people you reach out to are just not going to respond. Don’t take it personally. It’s exactly what you said. You have no idea what’s happening in their life. Just switching gears to the most recent chapter that you’re now in as you shift over to Google, I know that one of the seeds that got planted was you reached out to vets in Google, as I understand it. And that’s how you one of the ways you got your foot in the door and I’d love to hear about your transition into Google, how you made that happen. And then we can talk a little bit about some of the things you’re also working on on the side here. [00:22:22] Luke: Google has a veterans network. I think a lot of big corporations have veterans networks, and I worked out the head of the Veterans Network where I was, was a chap called Henry Chin. And I reached out to Henry and said that I was interested in Google. I would love to come down and have coffee or just have a look around. And he was really kind and invited me down, showed me around and had a really, really good chat with me and he gave me a few names. So then I followed out to those people and the next guy turned out we’d been in the same unit together, although we didn’t cross over. So I was like, hey, can I come down for lunch? So I think I visited maybe three times, three different people. What I would say is that that was a help to me. So meeting those people, understanding their roles was a real help. What it doesn’t do is it doesn’t guarantee you a route in. You still have to apply like everyone else. You still have to go through the same interviews like everyone else and hit the same standards. It allows you to dial in to the types of roles that you would like to start your pivot with. [00:23:31] Joseph: Now that you are at Google, can you fill me in on anything that has surprised you about what it took to get into Google, or even just life working at Google? [00:23:44] Luke: I love it, I love working here. I think the people are fantastic. I’m constantly amazed by the level of talent you may have covered in other podcasts about people having imposter syndrome, but when you’re dealing with people who are pushing one another because they are at the top of the bell curve for their area, you’ve got through the process back yourself. It’s given me a chance to reflect on what I’m good at. You know, I bring a new perspective. I come from a background that Google doesn’t have a huge amount of people that have that experience. And so I bring something to the team dynamic that not many people have. And I think everyone in Google that does that brings something and is valued. [00:24:31] Joseph: I would love to talk a little bit now, Luke, about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your journey. And I would love to start by, first of all, picking up on something you just mentioned, which is the idea that you’re coming from a non-traditional, more atypical background. And combining that with the earlier comment you mentioned about imposter syndrome. And I’m just curious if somebody’s listening to this and maybe they’re working in an organization and they’re a bit of an outlier and they feel like they’re surrounded by all these people who are perhaps at least they perceive them to be more skilled, talented, experienced, whatever. How would you recommend somebody deal with that? How have you dealt with that? If you’ve felt any of that. [00:25:15] Luke: The way to win in this world is to be very, very good at a few things and not worry about being good at everything. Be the known person for the thing that makes you the best. And I think too much at the moment. There’s a push to be a generalist. And we can take the MBA, for example. It’s a very general master’s degree, but what it should be used is it should be used to reinforce something that you’re already great at. And I was again, super fortunate in that I was given a full scholarship to do my MBA by a charity called Heropreneurs, which is a defense charity which supports entrepreneurial minded veterans and service leavers and, and also families. So I won this full scholarship and you have to give a pitch and talk about why you. What are you going to do with this opportunity? I used a quote in my pitch and I love this quote and I use it all the time. And the quote is, what stands in the way becomes the way. And find the thing that’s holding you back and focus on that. That is your way now. So it doesn’t have to be everything but one thing at a time. So for me, I had in my head that I was in the military, and what was going to hold me back was I didn’t know enough about business and finance and the corporate pillars that would hold me back in a civilian job. So that became the way and that helped me into Sandhurst. And it also helped me on the way out of the Army into industry. [00:27:05] Joseph: Another question I had for you, Luke, just going back to one of your earlier points was this idea of self Self-promoting without overly self-promoting. And this is a really tricky balance. I know a lot of people, including me, struggle with. Can you walk me through how you think about ensuring that you’re not bragging about yourself while also advocating for yourself? And how can you tell when you’re doing too much of it? And how can you tell when you’re doing too little of it? [00:27:33] Luke: I try and just stick to facts. I think that’s the easiest way, you know, if you have one something or if you have published something like saying that you’ve won something is not embellishing anything, or, you know, if you’ve published it, say, hey, you know, I’ve wrote this paper, I’m throwing it out there, let me think, throw stones at it. And I think having maybe an inner circle of people that you trust to give you accurate advice that will tell you if you’re going too far and that you listen to those people. [00:28:09] Joseph: That’s great advice. Just be able to have people around you who can honestly and candidly sense check you without you getting too defensive about it and being able to receive that feedback. So important. There’s a quote, I’m sure you’ve heard this quote from Jim Rohn saying that you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So try to surround yourself, as you mentioned, with the types of people who are doing the things that you want to be doing. And that’s a great place to start and also a great place to get some feedback. Speaking of feedback, if we think about our own internal feedback, as you think about your very interesting career change journey, if you could go back and have a do over with something along the way of your journey from the military into the private sector, into Google, is there anything that comes to mind, like what you might do differently now that you have the fortune of 2020 hindsight? [00:29:01] Luke: I think when I heard that I got a guaranteed job, I took my foot off the gas and I chose geography as my bachelor’s degree. During my time in the military, I decided that I wanted to become a chartered engineer, but I didn’t have an engineering background, so I had to work like super hard to overcome the fact that I didn’t. I had to use a lot more practical experience to get me through the process. And when I reflect on that, you know, in my head, because I was going to the military forever, it didn’t matter that I had a BSc in geography, but it should have been, I know it should have been civil or mechanical engineering. And I do think about that a lot. It makes me think about what I’m doing now and say, is this thing that you are thinking is guaranteed or you have a role, you have a role now. Luke, are you taking a lazy choice professionally or personally because you are in this role? And if the answer is yes, then that is the thing that’s in the way and that becomes the way. [00:30:06] Joseph: Speaking of continuing to keep pushing yourself and not getting complacent, Luke, can you wrap us up by telling me a little bit more about Antebellum Angels, which is a venture you co-founded in 2024, on top of your day job at Google? [00:30:20] Luke: So when I was on my MBA, I met another veteran called Jake, who is a co-founder of Antebellum Angels, and Jake and I had fell victim to what I call the friends, families and fools rays of a startup. So we both knew a friend who was doing a startup and they’d said, hey, we’re raising some money. You’re my friend. Do you want to invest in this company that I’m starting up? And these were separate things, but we both did it. And we had no idea what angel investing was. And unsurprisingly, the things that we put money in were didn’t go very well. So we were talking about, you know, but it’s exciting. Angel investing is exciting. So how could we increase our chances of investing in things that would go well. Well, you invest in things that you know a lot about. Jake and I both knew enough about defense technology from our time in service, and we started looking. Was there a group that invested specifically in defense technology startups in the UK? And we couldn’t find one anywhere. And so Jake and I decided to set up the UK’s first defence first angel investing group for defence technology called Antebellum Angels. Since then, we have grown to about 30 people. Most of the people are ex UK forces or civil servants that have left and have a speciality. And what we’ve created is this critical mass of 30 people who are able to technically analyze different startups in defense and determine whether they are investable for us as a group. And it’s going really well. [00:32:02] Joseph: Well, that’s very exciting. I appreciate you taking me through your career journey and telling us more about your life in the British Army. Your transition into military spatial analytics and engineering, and your current role at Google, along with the importance of proactively connecting with others along the way. If people want to learn more about you or Antebellum Angels or the work that you’re doing for Google, is there any place that people can go to learn more about you or to even connect with you? [00:32:28] Luke: Yeah, I’m more than happy to connect on LinkedIn. I think that’s the best way to get hold of me. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Jetsam Jakob Ahlbom – Crossing the Rubicon Additional audio was generated with Riffusion – riffusion.com

All sorts of setbacks can come up during your career. You narrowly miss landing your dream job. You get put on a project you don’t love. You have a horrible manager. You go through a round of budget cuts. You have a family emergency come up. You have a sudden health issue. Or you realise you’ve taken the wrong job. We all experience disappointments, stressors, or unexpected twists and turns in our career that test our resilience, patience, and fortitude. Career setbacks can’t be avoided. No matter how well you plan things out, stuff comes up, and your ability to navigate and manage those setbacks will make the difference between you getting stuck in a rut or bouncing back to find a better way forward. In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ben Kuhl, a sports and events hospitality management professional turned woodworking, shelf-making craftsman shares his thoughts on his shift from white-collar to blue-collar work, and I also share some thoughts on the hidden blessings behind career setbacks. 💡 Key Career Insights We all experience setbacks in our careers, and your ability to accept, embrace, and manage them can make the difference between getting stuck in a rut and opening a new, more promising chapter in your career. While career disappointments are inevitable, sometimes, they’re blessings in disguise that enable you to recalibrate and relaunch yourself down a more fulfilling professional path. The past roles you’ve had, even those that felt like a poor fit, can play a critical role in your career evolution. You never know how your past experiences will show up again and assist you in your future career. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of recognising and embracing career setbacks as an opportunity to shift your career in a new direction. Consider a situation in your own career you’ve found stressful, unsettling, or disappointing. Then, think about what this experience may be telling you about what’s truly important to you at this moment in your life and career. What’s one step you could take in the new year to honor that priority and move yourself in a more promising direction? 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction: Career Setbacks 00:03:12 Ben Kuhl’s Career Journey 00:37:08 Mental Fuel®: Blessings in Disguise 00:45:03 Listener Challenge: Identify Career Setback’s Upside 00:45:32 Wrap Up 👤  About Ben Kuhl Ben Kuhl initially built his career in sport management and hospitality, gaining experience in operations, events, and client service. After getting laid off from his most recent role in product management, he launched Shelf Expression, a Charlotte woodworking brand specializing in custom, high-end floating shelves and mantels. His background gives him a unique edge in blending business strategy with hands-on craftsmanship. Today, his shelves ship nationwide while maintaining a focus on quality and design. Learn more about Ben’s work on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram, and be sure to check out Ben’s Etsy store. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Threads, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:03:22] Joseph: Okay, well let’s just start off by getting a lay of the land. What’s happening in your current life right now? Like what’s been keeping you busy both personally and professionally? [00:03:33] Ben: I own my own business. Started a woodworking business back in the beginning of 2020, right before Covid. And ever since then, things have just absolutely exploded with work. So my woodworking business, I primarily focus on floating shelves and mantles. And yeah, things in 2020 just exploded and it’s just snowballed from there. So my life right now is woodworking out of my little two car garage and my family. So my wife, I have two kids, a nine year old and seven year old. So trying to figure out the balance between working from home, you know, on nights and weekends and also trying to be there for my kids is primarily what takes up most of my life at the moment. So maybe in a half hour for scrolling on Instagram before bed. But mainly those things. [00:04:17] Joseph: It’s interesting when you’re running your own business. It’s kind of a balance between running your business, making sure you’re still spending time with your kids, making sure you have time to actually rest here and there, and also just have some downtime to just mentally check out a little bit, because I know it can be all consuming to run your own business. Can I hear a little bit more about the types of woodworking that you do at Shelf Expression, which is the name of your business? [00:04:43] Ben: I started the business back, like I said, end of 2019, beginning of 2020, just making generic floating shelves to help pay for childcare, any additional unforeseen bills that came up and posted those on Etsy and they really took off. Then March of 2020 lockdown happened. Everybody was at home. They were redecorating their homes. They were trying to figure out how to bring a little bit more life into their office or their home offices. When everybody was at home in lockdown and things exploded. So right now I focus 95% on making floating shelves. It’s almost don’t really like to say that I’m a woodworker, because it’s one of the most, I wouldn’t say boring aspects of woodworking, but it’s shelf making. So I love being able to get creative and try to figure out different ways that I can keep my mind fresh on making the shelves as I go along. But yeah, 95% of my woodworking is making high end floating shelves and then also fireplace mantels, so hopefully continue to grow. [00:05:45] Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to your time now as a shelf. I’m just going to call it a shelf craftsman. [00:05:51] Ben: There you go. [00:05:52] Joseph: Perfect. Yeah, I actually have some questions about shelves for you, which we can come back to later. But exactly. I do want to go back to your time before working in this space. And you used to work as an event manager and eventually as a director of product management for Sports Hospitality Company. But before we get to that, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you and just where you grew up. And I guess specifically, what do you remember being interested in during your childhood days? [00:06:23] Ben: So I grew up in north central Ohio, right on Lake Erie, about 45 minutes west of Cleveland on a farm. So my childhood was always helping my dad out on the farm. When I was younger, as I got a little bit older it was more sports. So being involved in basketball and football and baseball, as I did through middle school and high school in the summers, waking up at five in the morning and picking sweet corn and being covered in pollen and always having that little bit of a blue collar mentality behind, you know, seeing my dad come home at 8:00 at night and being out for 14 to 16 hours drove home with me. The how important work ethic is to being successful and being a, you know, a son of a farmer really taught me that. You know, unfortunately, a lot of times, no matter how hard you work, you often aren’t as successful as you could be, especially in farming, because there are so many variables that play into being successful, like weather and markets and soil conditions, and seeing him work his tail off and being upset that it hadn’t rained in a month. Or maybe it’s rained five inches over the last two days, and knowing that your yield was going to suffer because of that really made me start to think about, you know, maybe carrying on the family farm isn’t something that I had as much interest in as I did when I was a kid. So that’s when once I started transitioning to being more involved in sports in the city I grew up in, started thinking about more about going off to college and getting a degree and getting out of north central Ohio. You know, my parents are so prevalent through my upbringing and the instilling of work your tail off and hopefully good things will happen. At least it’ll set you up to have a positive outcome for the rest of your life if you work hard. [00:08:24] Joseph: As you may recall, when we first chatted, I actually grew up in Ohio, also myself. I spent about age 2 to 6 in Hamilton, Ohio. I grew up in a very not fully rural, but it certainly wasn’t in an urban area like you mentioned. Very blue collar, very kind of ordinary. I would say life, but it does instill you with a lot of good values and good work ethic. Now you would eventually go on to Ohio University and you ended up studying sports and Fitness Administration. You did mention that there was, at least I guess, a potential consideration of continuing with the family farm business. Was that a very straightforward decision for you, or was that something you had to kind of wrestle with? I’d be curious how you ended up going into that. [00:09:09] Ben: It wasn’t necessarily something where my parents came to me and said, you know, if you want to continue on the family farm, it’s yours. I was the only male in my family tree that it kind of was implied that it would be mine if I wanted it. I would say probably around middle school I started to lose interest in continuing, and I think I’ve always had a sense of wanting to get out and see what else is out there in the world. As I transitioned to being more involved athletically, I was helping out less and less around the farm. So it wasn’t a hey, Ben, do you have any interest this in this or not? It was more of an unsaid. Okay, we understand that farming isn’t for you. So that’s kind of how the progression went. [00:09:49] Joseph: Well, let’s talk now about your time working in event management? I understand you started off as an event coordinator, eventually became an event manager. Tell us a little bit about this chapter of your career and what you were focused on. [00:10:02] Ben: Graduating from OU or Ohio University with a sports management degree. All I wanted to do was work for a professional sports franchise. So after graduating from college, moved out to Seattle to work for the Seattle SuperSonics. It was an amazing experience being on the ground floor. We were charged with basically being telemarketers, trying to call anybody who had expressed interest within the last five years in Seattle supersonic tickets, trying to get them to upgrade to a season ticket package. That part wasn’t the most. It wasn’t the best perk of the job. So also, working game nights really gave me an idea into what it could be working in event management, being on the floor when the players are coming out. Being close to the locker room, that was what really excited me, and sales was never Really a driving factor for me to want to work in sport management. Unfortunately, to get your foot in the door in sport management, you usually have to start as a some type of sales position, whether it’s inside sales or group sales. So after being there for a few years, the Sonics moved to Oklahoma City and then worked for a car sharing company, Zipcar, which I believe. I think they’re still around. [00:11:13] Ben: Yeah. As a marketing coordinator in the Seattle branch, and my main task was planning events in conjunction with the marketing manager in Seattle. And that kind of really got me into the event management mindset. Really loved starting with a blank sheet of paper, six months or even a year out and whiteboarding exactly what we wanted the event to look like, what our goals were for the event, and kind of forming the event around our goals and trying to figure out how we were going to meet those goals. So Zipcar, I would say my love for event management really started there. And then from there we decided that we wanted to do something where we felt like we were giving back to the community, and we decided that we were going to quit our jobs as a professional and move to Thailand and teach English. [00:12:01] Joseph: What year was this, Ben? [00:12:02] Ben: 2010 2011. [00:12:04] Joseph: Okay. [00:12:05] Ben: So we moved back to Pittsburgh, where my wife was from, to save up some money. I continued my job with Zipcar in the Pittsburgh market as an event manager, and we moved overseas and we taught English in Thailand for seven months in travel. Yeah, it was a very 180 on our career path. Our family and friends were telling us that it was career suicide, that, you know, people were going to look down on the gap in our resumes when we came back. But we would never change that in a million years. What happened before I left for Thailand? I helped out a friend working the masters with an event company that he works for, and I hit it off with the event manager prior to leaving. And on the way back. And this is in Charlotte now, on the way back from Thailand, I reached out to her and asked her if there was, you know, by chance, any roles that were available to come and continued my path in sport and event hospitality and event management. And there is a role that was available to me. And I came and we moved from Thailand back to Charlotte, and I started in event hospitality. [00:13:13] Joseph: I understand part of this is about selling tickets, getting people to events, but when you talk about the hospitality side of it, what exactly did that entail? [00:13:21] Ben: So a leagues and venues will have a certain percentage of tickets that they’ll sell a la carte to anybody who has access to them, and then they’ll set aside a certain amount of tickets where they will couple on site hospitality with those tickets, so that on site hospitality would be a tent or a VIP room, that the people who purchased these hospitality tickets will have access to. And we’ll go ahead and we’ll couple other exclusive offerings like player meet and greets. High end food and beverage. Backstage passes, behind the scenes tours with those hospitality packages. And those will be sold obviously as a premium above what the ticket prices were sold at and the venue or the organizing body that we were partnering with, we would get a percentage of those sales. So it was just a way for them to another revenue driver for that business. [00:14:12] Joseph: And how are you finding that experience so far? Like what was running through your head at this point in your career, having come back from Thailand, now you’re working in event management and hospitality management. Did you enjoy it? Were you finding it rewarding? Like what was your level of satisfaction? [00:14:29] Ben: This was a little bit of a foreshadowing to what I do now, but the work leading up to the events was always tough. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Long hours being away from home. Very stressful because you have people, understandably so. You have people that are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these packages. And if something doesn’t go right with that, you are the person that hears about it. You are the person who has to try to figure out how to put out the fire. So there was a lot of stress involved with it. But once you got to the event and everything was running smoothly, and you looked around and you saw all these people with the biggest smiles on their faces and having an amazing time. The finished product always made the work leading up to it worth it. I see that a lot now as a parallel to what I do now. There’s a lot of work with the shelves that I do the way a lot. You know? My hands are constantly covered in splinters and wood stain. But getting the pictures and the reviews, once my customers have them installed on their on their walls and the glowing positive things that they have to say about it makes it worthwhile to just knowing that I had a part in bringing a little bit extra something into their home. So. Same with event management. Leading up to extremely stressful, very high paced environment because we were 20, 30, 40 events a year. So you’re planning for one, you’re executing another, you’re starting the planning process and another all at the same time. But when you’re there, it was an amazing feeling, very formative, I would say. [00:15:58] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here a little bit, Ben, and talk about your shift away from that world into the world of, do I have this correct? Dental conferences and trade shows, which seems very different. Like how did you how did you make that pivot and what triggered you to make that pivot? [00:16:12] Ben: I was just ready to move on at that point. I was with the previous company for three years. I think it was the non-stop nature of the events and maybe a little bit of the high stakes nature of the customer interactions burnt me out very quickly. You go into 15, 20 events, it was something that I needed to change the pace from. I had lots of great memories those first three years. I was able to go to some amazing, amazing sport events like the Super Bowl and the Masters and the Kentucky Derby that I would never be able to go to otherwise, and It was very thankful for those first three years. I just needed something else. And you know what better place to pivot from sports than into dentistry? A lot of parallels between the two. Right. So exactly. I wanted to take my event management experience and then parlay that and continue down the event management path. And there’s just an opportunity available with a dental products manufacturer. And I saw it and applied for the job and I got it. And so when we started, they had us a celebration of the 30th year of this dental product, this machine that they produced. And I mean, anybody who’s in dentistry knows what the product is, knows the company name. They’re the forefront of dental manufacturing in the world. And I had the opportunity to come in and work with the events and marketing team to help plan the 30th anniversary of this product. [00:17:41] Joseph: Sounds like this is going well. A lot of transferable skills into this very different industry. I know that you would be there for a couple of years before you then returned back to your old former company, and you would go back as the director of product management. And I would be really interested to hear what prompted you to return to that world of sports, having stepped out of it. You mentioned before that you felt like it was time to do something different. This is an example of what we call sometimes a boomerang employee, where you leave a company or a sector and then you, you voluntarily choose to go back to it. [00:18:14] Ben: So I received a call from the president at that point in time, asking if I’d be interested in exploring any type of option of coming back. And we talked about it for a little while. My wife and I, we had my daughter at this point in time. We understood that travel would pick back up again going back to this company and the stress levels probably were going to increase as well. But I went back and I was now the director of product management, and my main roles were managing the ticket inventory across all the different events that we sold into. [00:18:47] Joseph: What do you remember about returning back to the company that you’d originally chosen to leave behind? I’m just thinking about, like the emotions of that and the psychology of going back to something you left behind. What was running through your head at the time? Do you remember? [00:19:03] Ben: There was a lot of familiar faces that were still there, which was great, but there were also a lot of people that were new. It was odd at first, but once we got right into it, it was like never leaving. So it turned out to be a great experience. [00:19:17] Joseph: Just to do a bit of a timeline check here. So you go back to this company in 2017 and while you’re working full time, you start to go through a bit of a side hustle transition. Do I have that correct? Can you take me through the evolution of your time there between, I guess, 2017 and 2020, what was happening on this side during this time? And I mentioned 2020. And so the pandemic is part of this. [00:19:42] Ben: So 2018, two years into being back and I wanted to make a few floating shelves for our TV wall, I wanted to get a bigger TV, but my wife wanted to put shelves there instead. So she won and I looked up a DIY tutorial on how to make floating shelves. Found one on YouTube just using standard dimensional lumber from Home Depot and standard household tools at this point in time. In 2018, beginning of 2019, my son was going into daycare, so my daughter was in daycare. At this point in time, son is going into daycare and it was expensive to say the least. We were really trying to figure out ways to make some money on the side. My wife is a photographer in addition to her full time job, she would go out and she would have shoots on the weekends to bring in some side cash, and I wanted to do the same. So I thought that if I posted these shelves that I made on Etsy, I could figure out if there was a way to, you know, make an extra $1,000 a month on selling these shelves. How could I do it if I could sell an extra, you know, 10 to 20 shelves a month? Just working on my little two car garage. It would drastically make a huge difference in, you know, our quality of life. We’d be able to afford daycare a little bit better. And I posted a listing on Etsy. I posted a listing on Facebook Marketplace and got my first sale. It was actually on Facebook Marketplace where I got my first sale in middle of 2019. [00:21:10] Joseph: Now, hang on just a second here, because you mentioned you decided to put up your own shelves. Now, if I needed to put up shelves, I would not have any idea where to start with that. And even if I looked it up on YouTube, I still probably wouldn’t be very good at it. Did you ever think about just buying shelves and sticking them up? Or like, what prompted you to decide that you wanted to do this by yourself and that you knew that you could do this? [00:21:30] Ben: I mean, I’ve always had an interest in woodworking. I had shop class all four years in high school. There were a few things around the house that I had made with, you know, a very rudimentary circular saw. My father in law gave me a few random drills and made a few things, and it just kind of sparked something in me that, like I mentioned with events, the finished product, looking back and saying, I can’t believe I made that is a driving factor in wanting to do this. [00:21:55] Joseph: While you get your first sale on Facebook Marketplace. And what were you thinking at this moment? Were you thinking, oh great, like, that’s kind of cool. I might make a couple more of these just for the fun of it. Or were you starting to think, you know what? Like maybe this is something that could turn into more than just a side business? [00:22:11] Ben: Not at that point, no. I think my Etsy listing went live in mid December, January and February. It was increasing a little bit and maybe at this point 15 to 20 shelves a month. And I was happy I was reaching my goal of making that extra $1,000 a month, wasn’t spending too much time in the garage, maybe a few hours in the evenings and a few hours on the weekends, and was being successful with that, and then also juggling all the responsibilities from my full time position as well. [00:22:41] Joseph: This is early 2020 and then the pandemic hits. And what happens to your full time work and what happens with the side business of making shelves? [00:22:51] Ben: We had just completed the last event prior to lockdown, which was the NBA all Star game, so it would have been mid-February. Covid was starting to really ramp up in China. I believe the hospitality passes came printed from China. So we went through and we were disinfecting every single hospitality pass because at this point in time, no one knew how severe it was. We just saw all these news stories about what’s going on in China, and we’re worried about it coming to the US. The All-Star game passed and then we had the first case in the US. Obviously, all these sports events that I was managing the ticket assets for are being canceled, or they’re being played without any fans in attendance. At the same time, everybody was at home. Everybody was trying to figure out how they were going to improve their homes, beautify their offices, and sales just absolutely exploded your sales. Yeah, going from 15 to 20 shelves at a time to a month to a hundred at a month. [00:23:57] Joseph: Wow. Okay. [00:23:58] Ben: It was very overwhelming. But I just remember being outside one day, and this was probably late March with our neighbors. And all of us are in our little circles. We drew in the cul de sac where, okay, you say in your circle, we’ll stay in ours. We can all be sociable and we can all have our community still, but we just won’t get close to each other. I just remember hearing that. Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching. [00:24:17] Joseph: Is this on Etsy? [00:24:18] Ben: Yeah, this was Etsy. Yeah. [00:24:20] Joseph: Okay. All right. [00:24:21] Ben: And it was an amazing feeling. But at the same time, it was how am I going to manage my 9 to 5 and do this. And most of my 9 to 5 was spent in the garage making these shelves, trying to figure out how I was going to fill all these orders. And March and April were spent mostly in the garage. You know, I’d work and hop on conference calls. And also keep in mind that we had two little kids at home at the same time as well, because daycare was closed down. [00:24:48] Joseph: So kids were closed, right? [00:24:49] Ben: We had a two year old and a four year old at home, managing that in my 9 to 5 and taking care of the kids, so it was pretty overwhelming. [00:25:04] Joseph: And what were you thinking at this moment, Ben? Were you thinking, I can keep going for a while like this or that? Something needs to give. How are you thinking about just your capacity? [00:25:17] Ben: I realized I couldn’t do both. I couldn’t, you know, work 9 to 5 in the office and then come home and work from 6 to 11. This is something that I think is viable. I think it’s something that if it continues at the pace that it’s going, I can make a full time gig out of this. I could leave this highly stressful work environment where you’re responsible for millions of dollars of ticket assets and become my own boss. In June, I was teetering on the edge. There was someone that I worked with, and we would go back and forth and she would tell me that, you know, now is probably the time to pull the trigger if you’re going to pull the trigger, all these events are being canceled. You’ll be able to preserve all these relationships that you have. And I was still really hesitant because, you know, I was scared. [00:26:08] Joseph: To quit your job. [00:26:09] Ben: Well, not necessarily. So in July, I was actually laid off. So, okay, I made this analogy before where I was at the door of the airplane trying to decide whether to jump or not, and I got kicked out. [00:26:22] Joseph: But you were on the verge of voluntarily resigning. [00:26:26] Ben: Potentially I was. [00:26:27] Joseph: Okay, I see. Then you get laid off in July of 2020 and the decision is made for you. [00:26:35] Ben: It was a blessing in disguise. I mean, obviously, it’s never an easy thing. Being laid off, right. There’s a little bit of an ego aspect to it, you know? But at the same time, it was such a blessing to have that done for me. [00:26:50] Joseph: Can you remember what was running through your head at that moment, when you found out that this decision had in some ways, been made for you? [00:27:00] Ben: I was angry, I didn’t understand why. If it was based on the last three months of me not performing at the level I needed to be, then I wish I would have had that someone would have that conversation with me and I probably would have changed things. But the previous 14 months, I felt like I knocked it out of the park. I think it was overwhelming at the time and trying to figure out how we were going to make this work. But once I realized that it was such a blessing in disguise that that it happened and someone made that decision for me, I started to come to grips with the fortunate situation I found myself in, because not many people get laid off and have a solid backup plan like I had already in place. [00:27:44] Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit about how things have been going for you since then with shelf expression? [00:27:50] Ben: I kept on seeing ads on Facebook for a shelf bracket that just launched, and I think they launched in 2019, and they came on the market and I emailed them and I said, hey, I saw you guys on YouTube. I noticed that you don’t have any type of authorized providers. I was wondering if we could partner in some way. And this is love to shout them out. This is hover. Solutions brackets. They make the most incredible floating shelf brackets on the market. I’m not being biased, but maybe a little bit. So I partnered with them and I started creating hardwood floating shelves that could be coupled with this floating shelf bracket. And instead of pine, I’m now making shelves out of walnut and white oak and cherry, and all of a sudden my margins are a lot better. It was a way for me to take my company that I’d make 20 shelves and make 500 or $1000 a month to a company that I could make 100 shelves and make $15,000 a month. It’s blown up since then. So working with interior designers, contractors and becoming the solution for them for their floating shelf needs is has been pretty remarkable. And everything has been self-taught on my end too, as far as my business and the non shelf floating aspect of running the business. [00:29:12] Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up, is that work that you’re doing right now, both as someone who is making the shelves, but also as someone who’s running your own business. And I would be, first of all, interested in just hearing about what’s been the most surprising thing about shifting from I’m just going to broadly label it a white collar job to a more doing stuff with your hands blue collar job. And I’m using those labels because I think they make sense to people. But how have you found that shift? I know you’re a business owner now at the same time, but just the shift from going to white collar office work to more blue collar, hands on work. [00:29:49] Ben: Yeah, it’s been for me so, so rewarding building that. And there’s a huge chunk of my responsibility is I still have that white collar responsibility. Right. It’s website design. [00:30:02] Joseph: Client management. [00:30:03] Ben: Customer relationship management, my ad social media. So I haven’t completely given that away. But being proud of a finished product and and being proud of the process has been probably the greatest reward for making the transition from a quote unquote, white collar to blue collar job. [00:30:21] Joseph: What have you learned about yourself making the transition from employee to business owner? [00:30:26] Ben: I thought I would get the most enjoyment out of being in the shop and making the shelves and seeing the finished product, which I do, but I also get a huge, huge kick out of trying to figure out how to grow my business and how to scale, and how to make it become more of a a nationwide brand that everybody is familiar with. And coming up with partnerships and different marketing angles is something that I really enjoy. [00:30:49] Joseph: If one of the components wasn’t there, it would kind of make the whole experience perhaps less complete or less rewarding. And I hear you that you’re saying like the business ownership is important, but you also like the hands on creation part of it. It really is both of those two things combined that is creating your professional life right now, which is really interesting. And you’re also borrowing and leveraging a lot of your past experiences in directly relevant ways right now. So it’s kind of interesting your trajectory here. Final question before we wrap up what you’re doing now, what is something that you wished you had known that you now know about making a radical career change. [00:31:29] Ben: Instead of turning to agencies to find the perfect solution for my ads and for my website design. I wish I would have taken the time to really learn the intricacies behind each and did it myself. Took on more of a DIY approach. I spent a lot of money and did not see the returns that I was hoping for. So now whenever I go down any of these different paths, whether it’s website design or marketing, a lot of times it’s all self-taught and that’s been the process is before you spend money on something, understand it, because a lot of times these agencies will come in and they’ll start spouting out these acronyms and these different KPIs, and if you don’t understand what they’re talking about, then you’re just as lost as anybody. And you need to at least know the ins and outs before you hand something like that off to somebody else. [00:32:18] Joseph: That’s really interesting, Ben. I’ve also found that to be the case myself as I’ve gone through, like I’ve been running my own business now for over a decade, and I did the same thing. Like I started off outsourcing quite a bit, including PR that was kind of one of the things where I outsourced to a PR agency, and these days I do most of that myself just because I feel like I’m in more control. And that’s part of the benefit and the upside of running your own business. I’d love to wrap up with what you are now focused on right now, which is both running your business and also making shelves. And I can’t let you go without asking you about shelves, because as someone who specializes in making shelves, what are a couple things that someone should look for in a high quality shelf, whether it’s a floating shelf or a freestanding shelf. [00:33:03] Ben: Yeah, aside from making sure it’s made by shelf expression, of course. No, I would say if you’re looking for something that you want to last a long time, make sure it’s made out of solid hardwood. A lot of these shelves that you can purchase through Amazon or Wayfair are probably made out of MDF or particle board, and you know it when you see it. Just like anything that you find for cheap, making sure that you have a quality bracket, I think is another thing. As far as if you’re looking for a floating shelf, Something that is handmade by family business as well. I feel like that’s something that plays a part in it, because then you know that the people who are making it are pouring every ounce of sweat into making it perfect and making sure that it’s the quality that you that you deserve. So that’s the big thing is, you know, a lot of times when you see these manufacturers that are a little bit more mass produced, reviews are a great way to dig into what the quality is, is like. And that’s something that I really take pride in, is making sure that everything that I put out, I would want hanging on my grandma’s wall. And I think finding someone who has that level of care and detail is really important. [00:34:11] Joseph: Very last question for you. Before we tell people where to find you, can you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for shelf expression? Where do you see this going, and how would you like your life and work to look in the months and years ahead, both personally and professionally? [00:34:26] Ben: My three year plan is to eventually scale out where I can get into a bigger space. My wife really wants to park her car in the garage at some point in the next three years. And hiring people, having someone come in and like I said, I love making the shelves, but I love running the business more. So if I could bring people in who have the same level or close to the same level of attention to detail as I have, that would allow me to try to figure out how I can scale this. I recently launched a designer program. I’ve been reaching out to interior designers and home contractors across the country, inviting them to join. So aside from the retail customers really trying to focus on how to build my B2B customer base as well, having those repeat customers that I can rely on as a solid base is a goal of mine over the next year. Yeah, eventually getting out of the garage and having someone lend a hand so I can focus on the bigger picture is the ultimate goal of mine. [00:35:18] Joseph: And if people want to learn more about you, or if they are looking for a good set of floating shelves, where can they go? [00:35:25] Ben: So my website is self-expression net. Instagram handle is self-expression NC. Etsy store name is self-expression. Take a look and would be happy to answer any questions anybody has. [00:35:37] Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Ben for telling us more about your life. As a former event manager and Director of Product management, your shift into woodworking, making shelves, and also your transition from employee to business owner. So best of luck with all of your work and moving into a bigger space as shelf expression continues to grow. [00:35:54] Ben: Thank you very much, Joseph. I appreciate the time. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Morning Garden – Acoustic Chill Ever So Blue – Calme Podington Bear – Lucky Stars Rannar Silnard – Siljan Podington Bear – Three Colors Podington Bear – Waves Podington Bear – Satellite Bloom

These days, there’s no shortage of distractions out there with endless amounts of content that’s just a tap away on your phone. As much as social platforms like LinkedIn are really handy for sharing and receiving professional updates, they’re also places that provide endless points of unnecessary, unproductive comparison. Not allowing external voices to sway you too much in your career is half the battle in finding work that’s right for you. In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, electrical engineer turned artist Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. In our conversation, we’ll discuss paying attention to what your body’s telling you, following your intuition, and finding space to reflect. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll discuss how I quiet career distractions. 💡 Key Career Insights Especially when you’re young, you may pride yourself on being able to hustle and power through challenging times in your career. However, your body has a way of telling you when you’re pushing yourself too much. Pay attention to these signs of burnout and overexertion before a bigger problem arises. Building a financial cushion provides you with the freedom to make a risky career move, so if you can put in the time, energy, and discipline into building this cushion, it enables you to move more confidently into the next stage of your career. Don’t be too consumed with what other people think about how your career should look. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding one way to have a quiet moment when you can be still and sort out your thoughts. I know life gets busy, and I know this isn’t easy to do, but you might be surprised by what clarity you might gain from the momentary pause. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:47 – Chat with Sangeetha 00:48:11 – Mental Fuel® 00:54:01 – Listener Challenge 00:54:40 – Wrap Up 👤  About Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. She spent nearly two decades as an electrical engineer in semiconductor chip design before deciding to make a big change. After growing up in India, she moved to the U.S. for graduate school in electrical engineering and built a solid career designing chips, managing teams, and leading projects. In 2024, she left her job to become a full-time outdoor oil painter, hiking into remote places to paint landscapes using sustainable, non-toxic materials. She also leads a women’s hiking group with over 1000 members in Southern California, helping others find confidence and connection in the outdoors. Her story is about choosing purpose over predictability—and having the courage to start again. Follow Sangeetha on Instagram and LinkedIn. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Threads, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:00:01] Joseph: Okay, Sangeetha. Well, thank you so much for getting up early over there in California to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. [00:00:10] Sangeetha: Thank you. It’s my pleasure. [00:00:11] Joseph: I would love to start by hearing a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life, so maybe we could start with that, and then we can go back in time and talk about your pivots along the way. [00:00:23] Sangeetha: As you can see in my background, that speaks volumes about what I do now. I am an artist. I’m a fine artist. That means I do these finished oil paintings. I get inspiration from the outdoors. I usually go on my outdoor expeditions as just for recreation, and I paint outdoors, and I come back to my studio and I paint them large. People want to buy them. So I, I would call it like a business, but that’s not how I intended it to be. That’s my career now, an artist who works for myself. [00:00:57] Joseph: I know you got into this a little bit. You talked about oil painting, but like how would you describe your style of art and your focus as an artist? What do you like to paint? Do you have a certain theme around your art? [00:01:09] Sangeetha: I would call myself a plein air landscape artist. So plein air. I think it’s a French word that means outside. So the style is that you go outdoors, you paint what you see. So you’re actually capturing the emotions, the exact feelings that you get from looking at a scene, not from a photo, but an actual scene. And you paint it. And I do those on my hiking trips. I go on to these remote trails and capture them, and I usually capture them small, like small canvases, and I bring them home. And the ones that really speak to me, I paint them large. And these are done using oil paints. And there’s several ways that you can do it. People use like plenty of colors. People use certain kinds of paints. Paint, but I do all non-toxic paints in my oil painting process. I use only four colors and it’s done in an impressionistic style, so if you look at it, it’s not a photorealistic. It’s not what you see in a photo or even like exactly how you see in the landscape. But it’s an impression of what I see. So you can bring the painter’s emotions onto the canvas. So it’s a different style of paint making. [00:02:25] Joseph: That’s amazing that you’re painting with just four colors, because when I see your background, this is an audio podcast. But when I look at your background and some of your paintings there, I would just assume you’re using the whole rainbow of colors out there. So that’s very interesting. [00:02:37] Sangeetha: I love challenges, so just with four colors, as you know, with color theory, you can make the infinite spectrum of colors interesting. [00:02:45] Joseph: I know that your art business is also a California green business, so it’s certified for your use of sustainable art making the non-toxic Toxic paints. Why is it that people don’t do that? Like, why don’t more artists follow the sustainable art making process? Because to me, that sounds like a great way of doing it. [00:03:06] Sangeetha: It’s just the same reason as why people wouldn’t do sustainability in any part of their life, right? Like, you know, that’s how everyone has done. So you just go with the flow and you never question it because the masters have done it with all the chemicals. And so you think, oh, that’s the only way. That’s the way I’m supposed to do. But I’ve grown up because of where I grew up and my family values. I always was drawn to doing things in a green way, eco friendly way. So when I first started painting, I was shocked by the amount of chemicals these artists were using. I took some workshops and the teacher was like mixing up all these chemicals in this and she was saying, oh, let’s leave the windows open because these fumes are. We have to let the fumes out. I’m like, this is not making any sense. I started doing some research and doing my own experimentation, and I figured you can use less toxic paints. You can use zero chemicals in your studio or outdoors. And I started trying it and I’m like, yeah, none of my paintings need those things that everyone was using that intention of wanting to do. And most people are not aware of it. They’re not thinking about that. [00:04:20] Joseph: You haven’t always been an artist. You were once an electrical engineer in the semiconductor chip industry. But before we get to that, Sangeetha, I would really love to start by hearing more about your early years and you alluded to this. Where you grew up, where did you grow up in India and what do you remember about your childhood there? [00:04:40] Sangeetha: I grew up in South India in the state of Kerala. When I say Kerala, I’m describing it would be very different from the rest of India because Kerala is very tropical, closer to the equator and it’s very green, full of coconut trees. Humid. Very green. Lush state. We get a lot of six months of rain almost because of the monsoons. It’s called God’s own country because of people feel how blessed it is for how it looks and the abundant resources. So that’s where I grew up. Until I was 18, I lived in Kerala until I moved out to do engineering. What I remember is, yeah, my childhood. I grew up in a family which is very middle class. My parents were central government employees. They worked for the Department of Telecommunications. They were focused on giving education to their two daughters. Very blessed to have been born. My family, I was like a math science nerd. I just focused on solving math problems. Like, that was like, my thing. [00:05:43] Joseph: Was that because you liked it, or was it because you loved it. [00:05:47] Sangeetha: Came very natural and obsessed with math and physics and all that. We lived in an area which was so green and beautiful, and so we always played outdoors, even though I was drawn to books. All our playing time was outdoors. We had a huge backyard with like, all the tropical fruit trees, and we had a swimming pool built by our grandparents. We would swim there every day after school, and what I remember is being attached to the books and then go outside and play. [00:06:18] Joseph: It sounds like a really lush and wonderful childhood, one that I think a lot of kids these days would love to have. Just the freedom to be out and playing and enjoying the outdoors. What made you decide to move to the United States. [00:06:31] Sangeetha: That way of living? I grew out of that. I wanted to pursue engineering, like further studies. As I got admitted into engineering school, I had to move out of my town because the college was in a different town. So that was the first move out of the hometown. And then I got a job in the city of Bangalore as a junior engineer for Texas Instruments. That was the first company that hired me. So that was the reason I had to move out of Kerala. So I was still in India. As for my first job, but I always felt that I could do something more than just living in a small town as a kid. You’re like, oh, I want to see what the world is like. I want to see where this will take me. So I had those ambitions as just to see the world, and that’s what I say. I wouldn’t say that. Oh, I wanted to be a techie and rule the world. Nothing like that, but I was. I had that itch to be traveling and seeing the world, I would say. [00:07:37] Joseph: So in this desire to explore the world, I know you would eventually move to the United States. Where did you land and what did you then dedicate your career to. During that chapter of your life. [00:07:48] Sangeetha: I worked for two years as a junior design engineer at Texas Instruments in India. And that’s when I realized I want to do more specialization in electrical engineering. So I applied for master’s degree to the universities in the US, and I got into two of them. One was UC San Diego and one is Columbia in New York. So for better weather reasons, we decided to pick San Diego. [00:08:12] Joseph: La Jolla, nice spot. [00:08:13] Sangeetha: Yeah, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. You can study in a college right next to the beach. And yeah, so that’s where I ended up. [00:08:20] Joseph: That’s so funny. I actually almost went to UC San Diego. I visited San Diego when I was a high school student. I loved it, I loved La Jolla, and just like you, I thought, how cool would it be? And I was living in Missouri at the time. So like the idea of living next to the beach and that being college like that just seemed so incredible to me. I ended up going to northwestern, which is a great school, but like the weather is just really tough. [00:08:43] Sangeetha: That is a great school. [00:08:45] Joseph: Yeah, it is also quite popular with aspiring engineers. Okay, so you’re in Southern California and then you would eventually move into an area that I know virtually nothing about, which is RF mixed signal IC design. Do I have that correct? Could you explain exactly what that is? Like radio frequency design and what you were working on? [00:09:06] Sangeetha: That was my specialization for my master’s degree too. So RF is radio frequency. It is the core of every wireless communication that we have today. So we need radio waves to carry the transmission of data from, let’s say a cell you call someone. It’s the radio waves that are carrying the information from one phone to the other, or from a cell phone tower to your phone, or from a Wi-Fi router to your device. So this specialization that I did was designing circuits that actually Communicate to another device through radio waves. I would call it like the most in-demand technology right now in semiconductors, because we are going wireless more and more. We’re getting rid of wires. So you you need more chips that do this. So this specialization is actually for designing circuits which are called RF circuits or RF mixed signal circuits. And that was my specialization. And just to explain what mixed signal is, everything in the core of your device is done in digital. Like there’s ones and zeros. But then as you come closer to the real world you have to make them analog. Yeah, I can keep going on and on about the details of it, but I would bore people. [00:10:27] Joseph: I think that gives us gives us a good high level overview. So mixed signal design and circuit design. Hugely important to modern day technology and communication. You were doing this for? Do I have it right? Like 15 years at Max Lanier. [00:10:44] Sangeetha: That’s right. [00:10:45] Joseph: How was that for you? How were you enjoying it? What do you remember about, like, your level of enjoyment of doing this kind of highly specialized technical work? [00:10:54] Sangeetha: I graduated right at recession in 2009, and it was really hard to find a job. But then I landed this job, luckily, and the company was still a startup, it had not gone IPO. It worked like a startup. I was the first woman engineer to be hired and they worked like 12 hours. 14. I don’t even remember how many hours everyone worked. It was a very overwhelming environment when I joined, I remember, but very challenging and also exciting for a new grad because you’re learning all these things. It’s all these engineers with PhDs and years of experience, and they’re inventing things, and they’re designing these complex things and being the only woman engineer the culture, it’s very different. Like when you’re in a new environment, suddenly you’re like, oh, you have to figure all this out and this tough environment. It was a mixed feeling because you had to work really hard to establish yourself and prove that, hey, I can make it here too. So it did take some time. So the initial years were harder. I remember like working really crazy hours. It really, really, like, took a toll on my health. But then there was that excitement of that’ll keep you working because you’re so into it and you have these joys of like, oh, I designed the circuit and it’s working and drag you into it. And you’re like, oh, I didn’t realize all these consequences of it. Yeah. So I would say the initial years were tough, but also exciting. [00:12:28] Joseph: You mentioned there the consequences of working in these intense environments. What do you mean by the consequences? [00:12:35] Sangeetha: Within a year I had really bad health problems, like I was diagnosed with herniated disc from sitting for long hours without moving. My spine had like compressed and it was like I had like a disc flipped. I mean, that’s like the most common way of saying it. And I was only 26 years old. I had sciatica, which is like the shooting pain on my leg that comes from this pinched nerve because the disc is touching it. I had not imagined that my health would deteriorate so quickly because of these long hours of working. So that, I would say, was the biggest thing I had not imagined would happen. And the scariest thing. So that caused me to take like some break from work, and I had to take like a six weeks or eight weeks disability leave from work and take a break. [00:13:28] Joseph: Your back is out of commission. You’re off work. Were you thinking, okay, once I get better, I’m going to get back into this. Maybe I’ll, I don’t know, work at a standing desk or I’m going to adjust my work style or my work habits. Were you thinking at that moment that this could still work out, or were you thinking, hey, this is something that I need to really reassess, that this long term is not going to be great for me. Like what was running through your head at the time? [00:13:52] Sangeetha: The goal was just to get back. I was flying. I was in my 20s and oh, I was like, oh, I have to get back to this as soon as possible and work harder. That was like the initial initial thing. I did get standing desk. I got like changes to the ergonomics were all taken care of. But I remember the whole time I was in bed, I couldn’t move. I had to be laying flat on the bed. The moment I get up, I, you know, it was so painful. But I remember at that age the thought was just to get back and get better and just go at it. But that was while I was in bed. But then once I started going back to work, I felt that something switched in me. I still remember the nagging thought that, is this really what I want to do? Is this what how I want to spend my, you know, the rest of my career? And I remember those thoughts coming, but then I’m like, this is what everybody’s doing. I’m no different. And I hear jokingly from other engineers that, oh yeah, once you’re in RF circuit design, back pain is your best friend. I’m like, really? Is that. Yeah. So that’s like a running joke in the company. And yeah, I had this unsettling thought that, oh my God, is this what I want to do? But I had no idea what else I would do. I’m stuck with this career where this is what I want to do, but the way it’s done is not right at all. [00:15:23] Joseph: You were enjoying the actual nature of electrical engineering work, but the structure of that work and the demands it put on your body and the work hours and the ways of working that wasn’t quite sitting well with you. I know when we first connected. One thing that you had written to me, which really struck me and I’m just going to read this is you wrote deep down, I’d known for years that I wanted to do something more meaningful and soulful than a desk job. I read that, and I was just thinking, what do you think was stopping you from making that move at that point in time? [00:15:58] Sangeetha: To answer that question, I’ll have to tell you, like, one of the things that the doctor prescribed was being active. After I had this injury, because I was not an active person at all, I was just a, you know, like anyone else in their 20s, just focused on work. And the prescription was to be active outside, go to a park and walk for or take breaks every 30 minutes and walk. And that was the first time I really used the outdoors as a recreational thing. And although I grew up outside, it was like a way of living. It was never. Different from life. But here, to be outdoors, you had to make an intentional effort to be outdoors. And so I started doing those, and that’s when I had like more reflections on my life, and I remember. The more and more I spent outdoors, I was getting time to think about this kind of life. And. That’s the power of nature, I believe, is that it really makes you present and really evaluate. Help you evaluate what’s truly valuable. And the constant thought was exactly what I wrote there. Is this the most soulful thing I want to do? And every time my manager say, oh, in ten years, I see you. The head of the department. And I’m telling you, I wanted to throw up when he said that it was making me sick. Like I could feel that my soul. That’s not what it wanted. Although I loved engineering and like. You explained the way it’s conducted and structured and in the corporate world, I feel it’s so wrong. It’s just like people are used as this machines to churn out efficient things, to make the next best phone or the next best TV, or I did not want to sacrifice my health for that. So that’s what I actually wrote. [00:17:49] Joseph: Did you ever think about just changing companies? Did that seem like that could be a solution or or were you feeling like something more radical needs to happen here to my career? [00:17:59] Sangeetha: If anyone knows anyone working in IT world or the industries, they’re all the same. I have a lot of friends in Silicon Valley, you know, all across the world who who work in different companies. The story is the same. I knew changing companies is not the way, and I did not know what else. I did not know any other skills, anything else. I just decided to, like, stick on and create my own way of working. Like after years, you know, you become the senior person and you have a little more command over your team and so you can set boundaries. That’s the best I realized I could do. Like, hey, I’m coming in at nine, I’m leaving at five. I’m not available after that, I don’t care. So that’s what I decided to do, not change companies. But in the place that I work, let’s see how we can make it work. [00:18:51] Joseph: How did that mitigation strategy work out for you over the years? Did that? Did that help or not? [00:18:58] Sangeetha: It worked for a while, but then you end up looking like that person who is not a team player, right? Because you will be the only person who’s setting boundaries. And when I became a manager, I was managing teams. And it does not look right for as a manager to be the person who sets the boundaries. But then I expect, you know, my team members to work these hours because there are these deadlines to be met. So it did not work. Well. [00:19:29] Joseph: How did you get yourself out of this? Because it sounds like there’s a bit of a conundrum here, which I think many people face when they are at this cusp of making a change, is I’m not happy with my current work situation. At the same time, it’s quite esteemed. I can probably think of a lot of people who would want my position. So I don’t necessarily want to just leave it behind, but at the same time, it’s wreaking havoc on my health. I can’t seem to change the system. What do you do then? [00:19:57] Sangeetha: Nothing I did was planned. I had this excel sheet I had built when I said, when can I retire? Just make the maximum money out of this. Just retire. [00:20:07] Joseph: Put your time in and. Yeah, exactly as much as you can. [00:20:10] Sangeetha: I created a spreadsheet, like where, you know, if you know how compound interest works, you can create all the equations to decide. What can you get out of this? I felt that’s the most best part of this corporate world is that you can just make the money and get out as soon as possible. So that’s how my brain started working. And then I said, when can I retire? My spreadsheet would say the age I can do it. So I said, by 40 I can be comfortable and let’s get out. So that’s what I you know, I was following my spreadsheet. But even then, like 40 is such a young age to be retiring and not doing anything. And even until the last few years, I had no idea what else I would do. So that’s when Covid hit, which, you know, transformed everyone’s life. [00:20:55] Joseph: Let’s talk about that transition because it sounds like Covid hit. And this is obviously a huge event that affected everybody. Their way of working, their way of thinking, their prioritization. And I would love to hear what impact it had on you and how you thought about your relationship with work at this point. [00:21:11] Sangeetha: It gave me like, all the freedom to work flexibly, and that was great. And then I think 2020 is when I discovered that I had all these, like, pains lying around in my house and I decided, oh, okay, let me just try doing some doodling painting in my house. And, you know, somebody, one of my friends probably left them there. I found them and I decided to play with them, and I thought, oh, this is looking nice. This is fun. And then I sent to some friends and they were like, wow, it’s beautiful. And then I got into it so much that I was painting on every book cover in my house. A hard bound book cover I found I was painting on top of it, made them like these beautiful book covers, and I ran out of books to paint on. I was painting on coasters. I was so close to painting my walls. So this I became that kid again who was obsessed with something. So that was 2020 and I didn’t think much of it. Okay, it’s something I liked. And then a couple of years past 2022 is when I was taking on this big project at work. It was like the biggest chip that I had led. I was managing teams and it was such a very stressful time and I decided to again turn to. I remember that let me just try this and see if maybe it will be a stress buster. And I was painting every day. I would come home at like 6 p.m., I would start painting at 8 p.m., I would paint into like midnight. Then I would look at my watch and I would be like, oh, I have a meeting at six in the morning or seven in the morning to go to bed. But what I remember is those hours of painting were like the most joyful. That was the start of what I remember as something that really caught my attention and drew me into it. [00:23:04] Joseph: That’s really interesting. It sounds like you had this. What started off as a side interest became a side hobby. Eventually people really liked this kind of work. And you then face, I suppose I’m kind of reading between the lines here, a bit of a decision of, well, how much time should I invest into this? It sounds like it was conflicting with your day job a little bit in terms of just the hours of the day required. And so what was running through your head about how to balance the two? [00:23:28] Sangeetha: Actually, I had no thoughts like that. I was still just thinking, hey, it’s just a way for me to decompress. Even at that time, 2022 is I seriously had this itch to leave my job. It was very clear to me I had to leave it, but the whole message I could hear from my intuition, if I may say, is just stay. You will know the path when the time is right. And I was not even thinking of painting as something I wanted to do. And I was looking at, oh, maybe a part time job, maybe a consulting job. I was still thinking of engineering as something I want to keep trying, but in a different way. Maybe a medical industry which needs some electronic, you know, design where it won’t be as demanding as semiconductor industry. All these thoughts are still going on in 2022. Do. What happened is 2024 came and again, people may not believe when I say this. I’m someone who goes with a lot of intuition and it really drives my decisions. It’s a very strong knowing. 2024. Spring and summer. That’s when I realized this is what I want to do. It was like a very clear knowing. I had been painting outdoors too, because outdoors had become like a such a strong thing in my life. After my back injury, I was painting outdoors a lot. I would carry my painting gear. It became such a strong calling for me, and it became clear in 2024 that this is what I want to do. This is fitting so well in what I had been looking for. I can be outdoors, I can paint. It’s still like a challenging, I can solve problems in painting and I wasn’t missing my engineering thing at all. By that time when I thought about it, this is the time I’m going to make the switch and my spreadsheet said, yes, you’re ready to make the switch. So I would say it was almost like an instantaneous decision. [00:25:21] Joseph: That’s interesting. The intuition piece. And I know you’ve mentioned spreadsheets here a few times. You can, I guess, do the math on like when you can retire, when you’re financially comfortable. But at the same time, part of it is just feeling like, hey, now is the right time to make the move. And it’s hard to explain in concrete terms the exact criteria that got cleared to lead you to the decision. Were there times in your career when you didn’t listen to your intuition, and how did you, I guess, shift your mindset around trusting your intuition more. [00:25:52] Sangeetha: I feel it’s actually something that my engineering career has taught me to like a lot of times as a manager or if you’re a project lead, I believe one of the strongest points of a good leader is making those decisions, which nobody else can. You have to make those decisions quick and make it very simple for people to understand. And a lot of those moments I’ve been able to use this intuitive might sound too woo woo for a lot of people, but you cannot use just logic. You have to look at the big picture and you’ll really see that, hey, okay, this is the right thing that’s zooming out and looking at things and be able to make that right decision. That’s a skill that I had developed over the years by managing teams and leading projects. So I feel like that got stronger and stronger, that skill, it’s a skill that you have to keep to sing. You have to use that part of yourself. [00:26:49] Joseph: Just to kind of shift gears here a little bit and talk about your current chapter. Now, Sangeeta, you are now a fine art entrepreneur, now self-employed. I am really curious to hear about how you thought about how to create a business around your art because it sounds like, okay, I now know I want to do this. How do I turn this into my actual professional life and my main, I guess, source of income? What was your thinking behind turning this idea into something a little bit more concrete? [00:27:25] Sangeetha: It wasn’t easy. I have no background in business. My parents are no business people. Nobody in my family has run a business. So it was really like jumping out of an airplane and building a parachute. That’s how I feel it. Like, I have no idea. No art godfathers, nothing. So I had to do some homework and I actually enrolled in an actually a coaching program for that, an art marketing coaching program, which actually really helped because I quickly realized that just painting you cannot be you’re not going to be discovered, like, you know, someone will just come and say, oh, wow, your paintings are great. Let’s, you know, make you famous, right? That’s the dream everyone has. But real world does not exist. So you actually need some marketing sales that coaches need to be in. So I did enroll in a coaching program, which actually really helped. [00:28:15] Joseph: I know that you started this officially, I suppose, at the beginning of 2025. We’re recording this in the back half of 2025. How are things going for you now as an independent artist? [00:28:26] Sangeetha: I’m always forgetting my past engineering life because this is so flexible. It gives me so much freedom to be outdoors, be creative, and just to express myself and what inspires me. I can capture it on canvas, create these beautiful things, and also seeing that people actually want to spend their money to buy them. That’s like a big validation of how much it touches you. Yeah, if you give something for free and they like it, that’s different. But someone to spend their hard earned money to buy something that you created. Did to me more than making money, that knowing is actually quite valuable. [00:29:11] Joseph: Now, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I do have to ask you a ruthlessly practical question. And it does relate to money, because I know you mentioned salary there, and I don’t know what your financial situation was when you left your full time work. But financially, how are you feeling right now with the independent artwork? And also a related question to that is you’d mentioned before, you’d kind of thought, okay, I’m going to work really hard. I guess I’m going to build up a lot of savings. Was there some sort of financial cushion that helped you feel more comfortable making this leap? How did finances enter into your decision to do this? [00:29:53] Sangeetha: One of the things when I look back, the blessing was that I had this back issue early on in my career and I could prepare myself for this from the beginning. Learning about investments and savings at a very early part of my career was very crucial in my decision making, I would say, because that really helped me to build this cushion. Now I can do this. Not like a 21 year old who’s starting an art career, which would be very hard because art, it’s not predictable. When do you get your next income? It’s not like getting a salary every two weeks or every month for that. I feel like my previous career really helped me create that. In my case, it’s been crucial in making it very, very comfortable and I can do it at my own terms. I don’t have to stress about where my next paycheck comes. [00:30:45] Joseph: It’s not something that I go into in tremendous detail on this podcast. We tend to talk about like the emotions and the dynamics of a career change, but there is this financial component to it. What you’re touching on here is quite important because if you can build that financial cushion or at least a level of savings that makes you feel comfortable taking a risk. I feel like it results in you maybe not being as desperate to, yes, sell that piece of art, or sell your service, or get that customer or whatever your industry might be. And I think that instills confidence in your clients and the people around you. [00:31:20] Sangeetha: It’ll make a big difference in the way that you do your business, because now you’re more confident, you’re not scared to take risks, and you can invest more in your business. So for me, that was very crucial. Although even though I felt ready for my next phase because of my finances, I did not know what to do. That was my problem. [00:31:40] Joseph: Well, I’d love to wrap up here, Sangeeta, with just a few of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, and I’d love to go back to some of the ideas that you shared with me in your first message that you sent to me about being on the show, and I’d love to just kind of in like a lightning round, go through four things here. The first is just the influence of people around you. And one thing you mentioned to me was this idea of not discussing your career change ambitions with every single person out there. And I know that some of the, I guess, career advice gurus out there are, they’ll say, hey, you should be sharing your plans with everybody, because the more people know about what you want to do, the more people are out there who can keep their eyes and ears open for you. And I would just be really interested to hear why you think it’s not always a good idea to share your plans with other people. [00:32:32] Sangeetha: Everyone’s decisions are driven by their own life experiences and what they had seen, and what they’re scared of, or what they’re excited about. So anytime you say your plan, they might have opinions about it and they might have different thoughts about it. I’ve noticed that the things that I’ve decided to do, they are so different from what all my friends or family would do normally, and if I had followed their opinions on if I take them to heart, or if they say that’s the better idea, I wouldn’t be where I am today. In any decision I’ve done in my life, I wouldn’t be here. What I have seen results is that go with your intuition. If your intuition is strong. But if you don’t have that skill developed yet, like you have that strong knowing, yes, you might be the person who needs help to make decisions, then this advice is not for that kind of people. But if you have like really strong knowing about what you really want to do, if you know for sure, don’t care about what other people have to say or offer, you will figure out a way. Because that drive to do things, it’ll create the path to get to where you want to be. [00:33:46] Joseph: My second question was actually related to that topic of being a little bit more focused on what you want versus what you think other people want, or what they think you should do with your career. Do you have any tips or perspectives on what somebody can do to sort of stave off that pressure they might be feeling from other people’s opinions or input on what they should do? [00:34:10] Sangeetha: So this comes from my cultural upbringing in India, which is a very, very non-independent in the sense you go with what everybody else wants. You know, you go as a society, you you go with the flow. You do it for the benefit of everybody, right? So that’s how that culture works. And a lot of cultures in the world work. And I had been trying to get out of that kind of mindset all my life, to be able to do things that actually what the individual wants is also important. You know, you need a good balance. So I had to consciously make that decision, hey, is this what really what I want to do? Or am I doing it because everybody else is doing so? That was like a conscious decisions I had to make. And I would say I’ve been successful in doing that. [00:34:58] Joseph: Is there anything that you feel can be helpful to the people who maybe, I don’t know, maybe they feel compelled to listen to what their parents once told them they should do, or what their peer group is saying they should do. Or like you mentioned earlier, like where your manager sees you being in ten years. Like, is there a way to kind of insulate yourself from the noise around you? [00:35:18] Sangeetha: Reflecting when you’re by yourself helps quite a bit. Take your space like maybe go outdoors. Give yourself space to reflect. Is this really want to do again? Goes back to like listening to yourself. That’s what I always tell my friends. Also just develop that skill more and more. Like what is it that you really want? And for that you have to get away from the noise. Like, you cannot be with like ten people in a group and just listen to their advice as you really have to go back and really listen to what you want. [00:35:53] Joseph: Last couple of questions for you. And then I want to finish up by talking about something I know that’s quite important to you. I’d love to hear your perspectives on risk taking, especially if there’s somebody out there listening to this. And and maybe they are kind of like me, just kind of risk averse. And that might be stopping them from taking a leap themselves. How do you think about risk and how to manage risk taking in one’s career? [00:36:19] Sangeetha: Risk is definitely subjective. It depends on how much you think you will fail in this, compared to how much you think you would succeed. So for me, I was like a not a risk taker at all. Again, go with what everybody does, the safe thing. But then the way that I did it was taking small risks, which are not like it’s not going to kill you or kill your career or, you know, taking those small steps and get the confidence like you can do it. Like you can make it work, or even showing to the rest of the world that, hey, you thought this was a risk, but I succeeded. Look, I did this. A lot of my friends were engineers. And now seeing that, oh, this is a risk we can take to, you know, changing things and the world is not going to end because you do it. I would say start with small things that you can get confidence in instead of. You don’t have to like jump off a plane and prove that. But get the confidence and you can do bigger things. [00:37:20] Joseph: And finally, going from engineering to art is quite a leap if you think about it. Like if I think about what could be more opposite, you’re going from kind of technical, very left brained, logical, non-risk loving worlds to a little bit more of a right brained, creative, maybe more intuitive space. And I’m just curious, like, what have you learned about yourself as you’ve gone on this career change journey? [00:37:46] Sangeetha: I do have a correction to make there. I don’t know why people think engineering is a left brained, analytical, logical. I have to tell you, it’s the most creative field ever. Because what engineers do are you’re solving problems and you have to creatively solve problems. I cannot imagine what is the logical part of it, but people think it is. It’s the most creative job that exists. To solve a problem, you need to be creative, which is exactly what I’m doing as an artist. It’s just I’m using different tools. It’s a different set of problems that I’m solving. What I am realizing is that ultimately, I’m a creative person who likes to solve problems and enjoy challenges, and I’m kind of done with solving these problems. Now I want to solve these problems and I’m enjoying these tools, so that’s the way I look at it. [00:38:39] Joseph: That’s good to know. It is interesting. It’s really useful to be able to find those unifying factors between what might, on the surface seem like a radical change. But actually what you’re saying is, hey, there’s actually a lot of common space here that may not be obvious to maybe the outsider, but actually I’m just taking my skills and my experiences and just reapplying them in a different context. And what have you learned about yourself along the way of maybe not this radical career change journey, but maybe the career evolution that you’ve gone through? [00:39:06] Sangeetha: Well, one of the interesting things I’ve learned is that I still have that childlike obsession with learning something new, and I love that even as a kid, like I was saying, I was obsessed with solving math problems. And I realized that I still have that childlike obsession and that spark to learn something new, to get really into it and just be lost in it for hours. I do that, and I love that people lose that as once you become, you know, 30s, 40s. I’m 42 and I, I’m so excited that I can still do it at this age. And I want to have it when I’m 90 or 95, however long I live, and that’s what I’m excited about. [00:39:46] Joseph: I would love to wrap up with something I know is important to you outside of art and outside of your now day job, your work, and speaking about being lost in something for hours. I know that you’re passionate about being in the outdoors, and I’d love to wrap up by just hearing a little bit more about the Women’s Outdoors group that you founded in 2019. [00:40:06] Sangeetha: Again, outdoors was again a consequence of my health problems. I’m most grateful for right now. And you know, in America, outdoors are amazing. Like you have this so much land you can explore. The wilderness is like true wilderness. You get in there and you’re just incredible. And so I had been exploring for years, and in 2019, I felt that I was at this stage in my life where I can offer that path to someone else, because I had been shown the path of the outdoors through some other people who led the way. And I felt, I want to create this for other women who have not been able to explore the outdoors. So I started this group with a friend. Then I started inviting friends. It grew slowly and I organized hikes. We organized camping trips, backpacking trips. We go for days. We just came back from a ten day backpacking trip in Lake Tahoe with 120 something miles. We did anything that you can think outdoors. We try to organize and even beginner level events and invite people, and they can be members and they can go on these trips with me and it’s all free, like a volunteer thing. I love to do because I’m very, very passionate about it, because outdoors was like a place of healing for me and a place of joy for me. And I want to offer that to more people. So that was the goal of it, and it’s still going strong. Yeah, we’re doing another event next Saturday, so. [00:41:40] Joseph: I think you’ve grown the community to over 1000 members now. So yeah, that’s really great work. If people want to learn more about you, or check out your beautiful artwork, or even learn more about this women’s outdoors group, where can they go? [00:41:53] Sangeetha: My website is my first name, Sangeeta. Com so that’s my art website and they can contact me through that. So I usually my outdoors group, I kind of keep it private because I want to send it to people who actually contact me and say, hey, I’m interested in joining so people can contact me through my website. It’s kind of a curated group where we want to really make sure they’re the right fit, and but they can contact me and I will invite them to join the group. So that’s definitely the way to do it. And I’m on Instagram. My Instagram handle is Sangeeta G artist. I do post all my art and all my next events and all of that will be there. [00:42:36] Joseph: Well, we’ll include those links in the show notes, and I would encourage people to check out your artwork and to follow you on Instagram. Thank you so much for telling us more about your former life as an electrical engineer, your transition into being an artist, the work you’re doing to bring like minded women together, to embrace the outdoors, and also just reminding us of how important it is to trust your intuition. So best of luck with all your endeavors. Sangita, and thank you so much for joining me here today. [00:43:02] Sangeetha: Thank you. I mean, it was such a pleasure. I had been telling everybody I met that this podcast is really great, and I know a lot of people who want to make this transition. And I’ve been sending it to all my friends and family who’ve been thinking, and it’s great to have one place where you can hear so many people have done it, and there are lessons and learnings and it’s such a great thing that you’re doing, so I really appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity. I love talking to you. [00:43:31] Joseph: Well, that’s great to hear. Thank you. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Bountiful Cora Zea – Faith in Aurora Hushed – Sibyl Rannar Silnard – Siljan Podington Bear – 88 Podington Bear – Leftover Fog Jakob Ahlbom – Crossing the Rubicon

Have you ever thought about changing your work setup due to a change in your life circumstances, time constraints, or just stress? At some point in your career, you may face a moment of reckoning, when you realize you can’t continue to sustain your current career, and something has to give. But how do you choose whether to hang on to honor the investments you’ve made or let go to make room for something else? On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 107, Matt Oliver, founder of Oliver Co, describes his career journey to go from designer to company founder and eventual design consultant for Native Design. We talk about how to pace yourself when making a transition, balancing your side projects with your day job, and the importance of outsourcing and delegating tasks if you want to open up new opportunities in you career. 💡 Key Career Insights When you’re starting something new, you don’t necessarily have to cut things off completely with your current employer. There may be a way forward that enables you to balance both your current work and future explorations. Relinquishing control of a project and getting out of the way can open up new possibilities. When you let go, delegate, or outsource, other experts can step in and run things more efficiently to enable more growth. Focusing your efforts on a single goal in your career has its benefits, but ironically, sometimes adding more onto your plate and diversifying your professional endeavors can enable you to gain a healthier perspective and balance in your life. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of releasing your grip on one aspect of your work to make room for another priority. My challenge to you is to decide on one thing you want more of in your career right now. Then, identify something you could spend less time on so you can make room for that. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:21 Chat with Matt 00:42:45 Mental Fuel® 00:50:02 Listener Challenge 00:50:52 Wrap Up 👤  About Matt Oliver Matt Oliver is a design strategist with a background in product design who’s had to wrestle with this question himself. Matt’s career spans both consultancy and entrepreneurship. He started out designing in-house before moving to a design consultancy, working with global brands like Zenith and TAG Heuer. He later founded Oliver Co, a sustainable accessories brand that became B Corp certified, won international awards, and partnered with Virgin Atlantic. His experience has given him a strong blend of creative thinking and commercial awareness. And today, Matt helps businesses use design as a tool for innovation and growth. Learn more about Matt Oliver and Native Design. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Threads, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Hosting.com for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Hosting.com is the web host provider I use and trust for my websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/hosting to host your website for as little as a couple of bucks a month. 📄 Episode Transcript Introduction and Guest Welcome From Boats to Watches Early Interest in Design Discovering Sustainability Launching Oliver Co Balancing a Business and a Job Going Full-Time with Oliver Co Returning to Full-Time Employment Lessons and Advice Introduction and Guest Welcome [00:03:22] Okay, Matt. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join me here on the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. [00:03:30] Matt: Great to be here. Thank you very much for having me. [00:03:32] Joseph: All right. So we’re going to talk about a lot of different things today. The steps you took to launch all of your Co, some of the challenges you’ve faced along the way, and also why you’ve recently decided to return to full time employment. But before we get to all that, could you just kick us off by telling me a little bit about what you’ve been focused on in your professional and personal life lately? [00:03:54] Matt: My current role is at a company called Native Design, so we’re a design and innovation consultancy doing physical industrial design and engineering. So the physical design of products and also digital design as well. So that’s things like user experience and user interface software development. My title is Design Strategy Manager. So really what I’m doing is I’m connecting potential clients with the different disciplines here at Native. So kind of understanding their challenges and then connecting them with the different capabilities that we have here to try and solve those challenges. So that’s what I’m doing on my on my day to day here. So a lot of outreach I guess quite similar to a business development role, a lot of outreach networking, a lot of going to events. Very interesting because I’m working across various different sectors. So one minute I could be in the life science sector. So we do a lot in genome sequencing and that kind of thing. And then the next minute I’ll be an automotive conference. So very different worlds in my personal life. Much more stable in that I’ve moved out of London, moved to a place called Guildford, which is about an hour west of London. Bought a house, got a dog, married a kid on the way, like, okay. Yeah. So that’s in November. Lots going on. Very interesting time. Early Interest in Design [00:05:19] Joseph: Sounds like you’ve got a lot going on personally. And things are going to change radically for you later this year. And so I do want to talk about your career in design, and I’d say that you’re probably a less typical guest than the ones we typically have on the show, because a lot of times we’ve got people here, Matt, who have kind of shifted out of one industry into another industry. I mean, in your case, you’ve spent, I guess, a good chunk of your career in some regard, always involved with design. Now, I know you haven’t always been at Native Design. I was hoping we could start by going all the way back in time. And first of all, just revisiting how you got interested in design in the first place at the very start of your career. And then we can move forward from there. [00:06:08] Matt: In primary school. Genuinely. Wow. There was a project, probably. I think I must have been about nine. And it was to design the front of the cereal packet. I was the kid that would always read the cereal packets in the morning. I just was fascinated by the design and what was going on with those. I guess I wouldn’t have known. I was fascinated with the design. I was just intrigued with all the characters. And so when this project came along and I loved it, and I got really involved with it, and I remember showing my parents and my dad said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. And he said, oh, our family, friends, he’s in graphic design. You should speak to him. But, you know, I was only nine and I saw the work that that he was doing. And I found I found that really interesting even at that age. And so from that point on, I kind of had it in my head. I was like, well, I’m going to be a designer. And really, I didn’t deviate at all. All the way through secondary school. I did design technology. Absolutely loved it. Yeah, all the way through to the sixth form where they’re not deciding what career wants to go into. I guess I slightly deviated in that my school was pushing me more towards the, I guess, a more academic job. So they wanted it ended up being naval architecture actually was what they suggested I did. I was doing physics and maths and they said, oh, you should be doing that. I think they were not pushing us towards design and creative industries as a school, which is a shame really, but they were quite academic focused, kind of just before we were starting to look at universities, I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. I want to go into design. I then studied product design at Loughborough, which is kind of a blend of industrial design with the more kind of engineering side, and that’s how I got into it. [00:07:53] Joseph: This might sound like a strange question, Matt, but it sounds like you were always really interested in design. Did you feel like you were good at design? Like, did you feel like you had some potential to be a good designer, or was that not really part of the thought process, or did that not feed into your decision to continue to pursue it. [00:08:13] Matt: Within my school? It’s quite a small school. I felt like I was top of the class for design. Then obviously then when you go to university, it’s a bit of a wake up call as to whether or not I am a good designer or not. There were some incredibly talented designers there, and I think I probably went into the university more confident. I think probably from the fact that I knew from a very young age I wanted to do it, and I thought I’d be more ahead than I was. And you learned what real design was, and I was good at sketching and the sort of artistic side of it. But actually what design is, you know, the more kind of problem-solving side of it. I perhaps wasn’t as strong. I guess I was always confident until I got to university, then realized, okay, I’m not quite as good as I thought I was. [00:08:59] Joseph: I think that happens to all of us. It’s sort of like you go from a big fish in a small pond, and then you realize the world is a very, very large ocean. It’s quite a humbling experience to go to college or university, and you start to see all the talent out there. So what was your first role in design and how did you get involved professionally in the world of design? I recall that your dad was a business owner. Did that have any influence on the direction you took? [00:09:26] Matt: Yes. So I didn’t go down the naval architecture route, but the reason naval architecture was on the agenda at the time when I was looking at universities was that my family are from that world. So my dad did interior fit outs of cruise ships. That was his business. Born in Southampton, very naval, part of the world, growing Grown up around ships and boats, and I thought I was going to be heading into. And even as a designer, I thought maybe I could go into exterior boat design. Not quite the extent of a naval architect, but exterior boat design. And so even at university, I was thinking that somewhere I could go. I worked at a company called Sunseeker during my placement year, and in a way, I realised then that maybe it wasn’t the world I wanted to get into and actually more kind of product design as we know it. More sort of consumer products was perhaps more suitable to where my skill sets were. And actually it was a recruiter that told me that. And that kind of led me to my first job, which was in watch design. From Boats to Watches [00:10:32] Joseph: I know you would go to Larsen Jennings, which is a well known watch brand, and I would be interested to hear how you made that pivot from focusing on, I guess, boat design at Sunseeker to then working for a watch brand, because this is something that comes up with a lot of people, is I like what I’m doing. I might be in the wrong industry. I want to switch industries. So I’d be curious how you made that pivot. [00:10:54] Matt: I guess it didn’t feel like much of a pivot in that everything we learned at university was much better suited to Lance and Jennings than the work that they were doing. The course and what I studied for four years wasn’t actually really that suited to boat design at all. It made a lot more sense. At least in Jennings, it was a lot easier. I probably had I gone into boat design, I probably would have struggled, to be honest. [00:11:17] Joseph: So you just applied directly to the company and landed the role? [00:11:21] Matt: It wasn’t directed through the recruiter. I loved watches, I loved Larson Jennings watches, but I didn’t think I could design them. I thought that was a different world altogether, and I hadn’t realized that actually, a lot of what I’d learned at university was very applicable. So all happened quite fast, actually, and got the job and they were taking a bit of a risk. They kind of saw me as an opportunity to nurture into a watch designer and actually sent me out to Hong Kong within my first two weeks of being in the company to basically learn what they were doing and then be able to apply that. [00:11:54] Joseph: That sounds really cool to me to be able to be working for a watch. I love watches myself, and I think that sounds like a dream job in many ways to me. How did that go for you? Were you thinking, okay, I’m set. I’m going to focus on watch design. This is aligned with what I studied in university. I’m heading down the correct road. Were you seeing that this was going to be the path you were going to be on for a while? At that moment in time, if you can kind of remember back to that moment. [00:12:20] Matt: When I joined them, they were still very much a startup, but an exciting startup. It was growing fast. Lots of young people in their vibrant office in London. Young founder yeah, just had this feeling that we were going to take over the world. That’s actually what we said. We’re going to take over the world one watch at a time. And I actually loved the whole machine of what we’re doing, the content social, the marketing, the operations, like, the whole thing fascinated me, and and I was exposed to all of it as well. I was connected to all those teams. And so I was doing just the design. But actually I found I was getting very interested in all the other cogs, seeing the founder, who was this young guy, I was quite inspired, probably inspired by my dad as well, thinking, well, I could be a business owner, I could do this. You know how exciting to have a group of people like this that you know, to build something and put it out there in the world. And the founder, Andy, was getting featured in GQ, and it just the whole thing was just a great buzz. I became more interested in the business, I guess I was doing design day to day, but also doing a lot of more kind of product, managing the managing factories. So actually not doing that much design towards as I got more established, the watch market was growing. It was really this was before the Apple Watch or the Apple Watch maybe had just come out. But we kind of were thinking, this isn’t going to disrupt things. This is fine. This is for a specific tech audience. But the way that it then disrupted the industry within the next two years, I realized this probably isn’t an industry with much longevity, and therefore I probably don’t want to be staying in it for too long. Discovering Sustainability [00:14:08] Joseph: So what triggered you to start to think about beginning and starting your own brand and business? I know that you started to kind of notice that this could maybe be part of your own lexicon and part of your own ethos to be a business owner, especially because your father was one. But was there a particular event or moment where you started to think, okay, no, this is something I really want to pursue. [00:14:33] Matt: So firstly, my interest in sustainability started all the way back when I was on my placement year at Sunseeker. But I saw how boats were built and the huge amount of waste. I mean, it is staggering the amount of waste that goes into it. And I think that sparks an interest in sustainability. And then I started to try and push a more sustainable agenda at last. And jenning’s in the materials that we were using, we had a lot of stock at the time, and they weren’t willing to transition to new materials just because the business wasn’t in the position to do it. So there was this kind of moment of, of a few things coming at once, this kind of passion for sustainability, these new materials that were coming on the market. The excitement that I was getting for them. So these were low impact leather alternatives made from from fruit waste. They take the fruit waste from industries like the apple industry, where they create the fruit juice and the compote, and they take the waste and they turn it into essentially a leather alternative. And I was so excited about this, and I wanted to bring it into Glass and Jennings. And initially they were like, yeah, as I said, they got lots of stock. Can’t do it. And I think seeing the young founder being inspired by that. It was kind of those combination things where I found this material. I think I can do it myself because I can see it here. I’m excited by that. [00:15:52] Matt: I’m going to do it myself. I’m going to do it. I think I can do it. I know about all the different areas. I know how to set up a website. Now I know what platform they’re using. I know how to do the marketing because I see them doing it every day. Maybe I can do this. And I also knew, because we started to get into small leather goods as a company. And so I started to understand things like the minimum order quantities that they had, and they were quite low. So I also was thinking, this won’t be too expensive to get into this. It won’t be like an upfront cost. So I also thought if I’m going to start a business, this is quite a good one because yeah, it’s not a massive investment that I have to put forward. So it could be just a side hobby actually initially, but realized I had to speak to the owner of the company to greenlight it, which I did, and actually he was very excited by it and said, no, this is going to be really beneficial for you. Probably beneficial for this company as well for you to kind of see the, you know, all the different things that go into starting a business. You should do it. I just started it very, very small to begin with. It was card holders I’d made first made 30 of them. Yeah. Sold those to family and friends and started Instagram and really just built it from there. Launching Oliver Co [00:17:02] Joseph: You’re making this shift now into entrepreneurship at this point, and you start with a few cardholders. What sort of product line were you thinking you were going to be focused on? At this point, it sounds like you didn’t pursue like watch straps. At that moment, you decided to go down card holders. How did you land on card holders, and how did that end up expanding into what we now know? As Oliver Co. [00:17:25] Matt: Couldn’t go into watch straps because that was a conflict of interest a bit too far. We had just done a project with small leather goods looking at wallets, card holders. Actually, it was more female orientated for Larsson & Jennings. I felt safe designing those because I knew what I was doing. I knew I could create the technical drawings for that myself, and I didn’t have any exposure to any other products. So the other reason was I felt like carry goods more broadly. People were always going to need to carry stuff. No matter what happens with technology, people still need to carry stuff. So I also thought there was longevity in the business. The ethos of the company, the ethos of the company was to be the forefront of material innovation, and I could see that that was a long roadmap that was always going to be. You could always make a material more sustainable, lower impact circular products, and being able to completely recycle them was still a long way into the future. And I thought, well, then, if I baked that into the ethos of the company, there’s actually lots we could do. [00:18:27] Joseph: Another question about you just starting up Oliver Co. How were you actually getting this business going? I know a lot of people who maybe listen to this show, they’ve got ideas, they’re thinking about launching a company. Maybe they want to start a product line or service. I mean, it sounds like, okay, I want to start this business, but what did you actually do to actually turn this thing into a concrete business? I’d imagine you need to find a supplier. You need to, I guess, find employees. Could you take me through some of those initial steps to make this thing real? [00:18:58] Matt: So initially, the focus was on the product to make those 30 cardholders. And actually the challenge then was getting hold of the material because it was a brand new material. The company who produced it, who were initially the very focused on obviously large orders they’ve just got going. They want to be getting in with the automotive companies and the furniture companies. So they weren’t interested in working with startups at all. And so that was that was the first challenge, is just getting hold of the material, because the minimum order quantity of it was 150m, which can make thousands of car orders. So that wouldn’t do. So I had to try and get hold of like a sample piece almost. And I just kept calling this guy. I met him at the show. I had his number. There were two materials I was using, and out of a strange coincidence, they were collaborating over a project. These two different materials. One was made from wood and the other was made of that apple material. And I just texted them on that day. He said, I’m actually heading there. I’ve got some samples in the back of the car. I’ll give them ten meters of the brown. Will that be okay? And I was like, perfect. That’s amazing. Quite lucky in that sense, but that sort of got me going. Made the products. Launched a website with the cheapest platform I could find at the time, which was a company called Big Cartel. And really, it was initially just family and friends just telling people about what I was doing, setting up the Instagram. I guess Instagram pulled in probably the majority of the initial sales. It wasn’t like they flew off the shelves. It wasn’t at all. It was probably over a few months and that’s how I initially got started. Balancing a Business and a Job [00:20:39] Joseph: We should also probably mention that financially, this is still in a kind of startup early stage phase. You were also working full time, as I understand it at the time. How did you balance those two worlds like working full time? I understand a design firm at the time and also launching your own business. [00:21:00] Matt: Yeah. Stuart Larson Jennings when I first started it and it was just morning and evenings, really. It was never crazy. I was never like, you know, working till the early hours of the morning. I would be quite structured in the way I did it. I generally get up quite early anyway, so I would normally do maybe a couple of hours in the morning before work and then in the evening just really sat in front of the TV doing the work as well. That’s really how I got started with it. I think having that prior knowledge of the different areas of the business and having them to lean on as well. Like I’d actually speak to the marketing team or the e-commerce team and say, how do I do this? Like, how do I change the coding of the website to look the way I want it to look? And they would literally on a lunchtime even just say, oh, you just need to do this thing. [00:21:44] Joseph: What were some of the bigger challenges along the way that you can recall in those earlier days? [00:21:52] Matt: The supply chain was the hardest bit. After those 30 wallets, the cardholders were made. I needed to work with a factory that had a bit more capacity. The first challenge was finding that factory and firstly, people taking you seriously because they know the size you are. There’s a lot of emailing with no response. And then I missed so many factories. Really. It was just like, oh my goodness, like someone wants to work with me. Not that. Oh, let’s test them for quality and see if there’s actually a good product. I was thinking about that, but more I was just relieved that someone wanted to work with me. And then when we started producing the product, The biggest challenge was that they’re handmade goods. The quality just wasn’t there. I wasn’t earning loads then. I was putting quite a lot of money of my own money into it, and so I found it really stressful. When production would arrive and there would be faults with 25% of the products that I had, and, you know, thinking that if I bring this up with the factory, I’m such a small they don’t need the hassle. I think. I think they’re just going to say, oh, just go away. And I was so fearful with that. I was kind of very reliant on them. But at the same time, I couldn’t accept I did have a high standard of what I thought was good. It was just a real challenge to get them to empathise with my position, try and get them to care more and fix the problems that I had. And it was a lot of back and forth. [00:23:20] Joseph: How were you finding the entrepreneurial journey as a whole when you compare it to working full time for an employer that’s paying you a steady salary. Like, what was that experience like for you? Did you like that contrast? Were you enjoying it or were you finding it more stressful than it was worth? [00:23:41] Matt: The lows felt low and stressful, but the highs were just awesome. You build this thing and then you get a small win. You know, you get featured in a magazine and you get a customer review. I couldn’t compare anything that was happening at work to that feeling of of building something and someone saying, I love this. I love what you’ve done here, and I love that. That part of having a business and having my own thing. The biggest thing I would compare with it, it was just it was my own creative outlet where I had full control. [00:24:14] Joseph: So as those two jobs are running in parallel, so you’ve got the consultancy that you’re working for. You’ve got Oliver Co that you are running. How are you thinking about where your career was heading at that moment and where did you want it to head? [00:24:30] Matt: At this point, now I’m pretty set on Oliver Co. My career. I saw the consultancy role as a really good learning curve for learning very detailed, high quality design, but I definitely saw all the lessons that I was learning there. I was thinking, how am I gonna apply this to my own business? The focus then was, how can I start to transition to this being a full time role? So within about a year of being at the consultancy, I asked my boss whether I could go down to four days a week because at this point my own business was growing. I brought in a friend of mine who was marketing digital marketing, and he introduced me to running ads through Instagram and Facebook. And that was like an overnight. Completely changed the business. It was like, like doubled revenue practically overnight. [00:25:22] Joseph: Wow. [00:25:22] Matt: Okay. And then I really kind of thought we can scale this now, like create more products, Run more ads. If the unit economics work and you’re not spending too much on the marketing. Your return on investment makes sense. Then you can turn up the dial on the ads and you’ll sell more product. That’s when I then went down to four days a week, then quite quickly went down to three days a week. Worth saying. I built a base of money, so I was lucky in that I had got money from my grandparents that I kept. I started saving money from my job. It was quite clear I wasn’t going to pay myself for a little while, so that was another part of the mindset and strategy was, I need to start saving because I’m going to probably make this jump. [00:26:02] Joseph: So before we talk about your eventual shift into what you’re now doing for Native Design, can we talk a little bit about those couple of years? I’m just looking at the timeline here. Do I have it correct that between around like 2021 to the present day is when you were kind of more fully dedicated to Oliver Co? [00:26:23] Matt: There was a period of time where I was very focused. Going Full-Time with Oliver Co [00:26:27] Joseph: How long was that for when you were, like, 100%. This is all I’m doing, Oliver. It was post consultancy. [00:26:33] Matt: Yeah. So that was a year and a half. [00:26:36] Joseph: So a year and a half. What was that year and a half like for you when you were just like 100% all in on Oliver Co? [00:26:43] Matt: Incredibly exciting. I had my own space in London, and, you know, it was just like my, again, my sort of complete outlet of everything. I wanted the brand to be in a room. It was, yeah, incredibly exciting and at the same time, a whole new level of stress, knowing that I didn’t have any income coming in. And it was almost like a clock of like, you’ve got a clock, but it’s only going to last a year. Max, you need to grow this business and get this working. And I think there was probably a bit of naivety to the scale that I needed to get to, what levers I needed to pull in order to grow the business. So there was a lot of trial and error, and probably quite frantic. I was very motivated in the office early, and the day would just melt away, and I feel like I’m doing quite enough because I guess it wasn’t growing fast enough. So as time went on, the stress levels went up more and more, and there’s literally even an app on your phone that you can see the sales each day. And if I’d had a bad day of sales, it completely affected me outside of work as well, like I was. I would be miserable to be around, so it would be what I was thinking about. I was going, I’d be checking the website, is it down, what’s going on? And yeah, I’m like, listen, my now wife. She was just beside herself with it. It was carnage. Thinking back to it, before I had the office and I didn’t have the office straight away in Bermondsey initially, I had all the stock in the flat that we were living in, and I’d be getting up early and doing all the orders so I could get down to the post office and the whole room would just go explode with tissue paper everywhere and cardboard, and it was just absolutely carnage. Like get there when the post office opens and and then rush back. And then I was just at my laptop. [00:28:30] Joseph: And was it you packing up these . . . [00:28:33] Matt: Yes! And if it was personalization, I’d be embossing it as well with their initials. And I love that about it. I love that– I probably am a generalist at heart. I love getting stuck into kind of a bit of everything. That’s what I’ve realized is that I love learning how to do the website. I love learning how to do the marketing on Instagram, and it was a really frantic time. I just learned so much. But then I guess the reality hit after about a year that I wasn’t growing it fast enough. [00:29:09] Joseph: Is this like a one-man operation at this point? Do you have employees? Do you have freelancers contractors who are helping you? Or is it literally Matt in your bedroom packing parcels on your own and literally running to the post office? [00:29:25] Matt: So I mentioned the marketing manager in the early days, getting me set up on the digital advertising, and then I brought in some freelancers to help me out here and there. But at that point, still, like 90% of it was just me doing it all. Then as the business grew, I could start hiring more freelancers. [00:29:43] Joseph: This is what I hear from entrepreneurs is, at least in the early days, when you’re doing the vast majority of the work, this thing is yours. Like, it feels almost like is your baby. And this is you are pouring your blood, sweat and tears into this thing. And I think you were about to say that things. I guess the business wasn’t growing as fast as you would have liked it to grow. I’ve always curious at what point do you decide that something needs to change? You’ve invested so much into this at this point, and you’re not seeing the traction and the growth that you want to see. How did you think through that? Like, how did you think through whether you needed to make a change not only to the business, but also your involvement with the business. [00:30:26] Matt: It was more a financial decision. I was at a stage in my life where I was about to get married. We wanted to buy a house, so it was kind of at this point where, okay, I’m now starting to pay myself, but this is actually really putting the brakes on the company, and I can’t see how on earth we’re going to grow it if I’m not reinvesting this. But I couldn’t just keep going on and on without an income. So if the business wasn’t at the size where I could keep it going. But I did take comfort in the fact that it was now at a size where I could go get a full time role. The business could self-sustain, and I could hire freelancers to keep the lights on and keep it going and keep growing it. I think I would have been really heartbroken if it was like, I need to go get a full time job and I have to, like, stop the business entirely. I think. I think I really would have struggled with that. I kind of felt like I got the best of both worlds in the way. [00:31:25] Joseph: Before we get to some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. I do have a couple more questions about this transition that you made where you shifted back into full time work, but at the same time, you were also outsourcing the work at Oliver Co. And I know those two are related, and at the same time, they’re two quite big decisions individually also. So just outsourcing versus doing the work yourself. And this is something that I actually really struggle with as somebody who runs my own business, is when to let go and when to hand the keys over to somebody else. I would be really interested to hear how were you able to just let go of stuff and to hand it over to these other people? I know that’s what companies do all the time, and that’s what managers do. And people hire people all the time. But when it’s your own business and your name is literally I’ve got one of your cardholders, right? I mean, your name is on this thing. And so I’m just curious how you let go of control. [00:32:20] Matt: It was a difficult and also very fast lesson that I had to learn in that getting my role at Native happened so fast. I expressed an interest with a recruiter. He literally got me the interview within about a week, and then within two days they gave me an offer and in my mind, I was this was going to be a lot longer process of getting finding a job, and it was going to give me time to learn how to relinquish control, understand how to set people up in the way that I want them to. I thought all these things were yeah, it was just going to happen at a slower pace, but it didn’t. The offer was there on the table, and they very kindly said, we want you to start now, but if you need to sort out your business, because they firstly amazing that they let me continue with the business. I think a lot of companies would say no, that’s going to be distracting for you. You need to stop it. They again saw it as a positive. Having my own business and they gave me the time. So initially I was on I was doing three days a week, and I said, you know, can I do that for a month? So then I had two days on Oliver Code just to start to make that transition. Then went to four and then went to full time. [00:33:37] Matt: That was over a period of two months. In that two months, I had to learn and hire the right freelancers to relinquish that control. It was stressful initially, or that’s scary. It was the one thing I felt very confident. Running all the different parts of the business, I always felt like I could quickly learn something and do it myself, but the one thing I had never learned was how to manage other people to do this work. And so there was someone that I met who was also a founder of a company, and he had also transitioned into a full time job, almost exactly the same situation as me. And he said something. He was like. When you relinquish control and get out of the way of the business, you’d probably be surprised how much it will grow. He was like, just get out of the way. Sometimes you’re your own worst enemy in a business, and if you leave someone who is specialist in marketing to do the marketing, you’ll be amazed at how good they could be and how much they could grow. And that’s kind of pretty much exactly how it went. I brought in someone to do the marketing, someone to do the graphic design and customer service, and they were all brilliant at what they did. And the business grew. They did better with me. Not in the way of it. Returning to Full-Time Employment [00:35:00] Joseph: How is your return to full time work been? Because you were working full time, then you went and did the entrepreneurship full time, and now you’re back into full time employment? I know Oliver Co is still out there, which I know is quite different than it not being out there. I’ve always been really curious what it’s like for an entrepreneur to go back and then work for somebody else. [00:35:22] Matt: It was difficult in some ways. In other ways, it wasn’t because the role itself was quite self-starting. There was no one else in my role. It was in design strategy slash business development. There was no one in the team doing it. So it was very much I had complete ownership of that. In some ways it felt like my own, my own little business within the business. I guess it would be. It would have been quite different had I gone into a role where I had a manager that was very much telling me what to do every single day. It wasn’t that. So it was a bit easier. In that year I was running my business. I was in a room majority of time completely by myself. It was lonely. There were people. There were other entrepreneurs in the same block as me. And, you know, I’d see them on lunch and we would catch up them. I had a social person. I loved being around people, so I did find it quite challenging not being around people in that year. So being in a company with 80 people, I was immediately energized by that. [00:36:19] Joseph: Well, the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up, Matt, are just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey? First of all, what has been the most surprising thing for you about simultaneously running your own business? I know you’ve relinquished some control of it, but it’s still your business while also being employed. Has there been anything in particular that’s been surprising about having those two things running simultaneously? [00:36:47] Matt: The surprising thing would be around the balance having more time for my personal life, even though it was, it was almost like it was going to become more condensed. My life with having the business and my personal life and Oliver Co and I thought, how am I going to juggle all of this? And how am I going to be optimum with Oliver Co, still drive it forward and still be good at my work. And and I’ve realized the more I have created the balance between them all and really focus on that. The more energized and focused I’ve become on each thing. And I’ve been surprised by that in a way, because I really thought I was never going to get the balance. Yeah, I thought I was going to get pulled in different directions and feel quite stressed in this position, but actually being quite strict and splitting them up and making sure I felt like I was more balanced has really helped. [00:37:38] Joseph: Do you have any sort of advice that you would give to somebody who’s maybe listening to this, and they’re thinking about launching their own business? This idea of going all in and kind of burning the boats and just focusing 100% on the business versus taking a more, I guess, measured, maybe more diversified approach to your career. Do you have any thoughts on or advice for somebody who’s kind of weighing up whether they should just jump in or whether they should kind of dabble at first and kind of dip their toe in? [00:38:10] Matt: I personally think dipping your toe in is the best way. Keeping hold of your job as long as you possibly can. Probably learning quite early to outsource what you can. I think it’s so easy to say with hindsight, but building a business where you thought through the unit economics or whatever service you’re going to provide, like is this actually going to be profitable? Because I think I didn’t give enough focus to that. And then if there is a way of going more slowly into it, you’ll start to learn the lessons and it will be nowhere near as stressful as just going all in. I wish I kept my hold on my job a little bit longer, because there was that initial financial stress quite quickly. Going all in has its merits as well, depending on the type of business, but it wouldn’t be for me. Lessons and Advice [00:38:57] Joseph: Final question before we wrap up here, what are 1 or 2 things you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve gone through all these pivots in your career and had these different formats of working. [00:39:11] Matt: Yeah, I guess the thing that I touched on before is that I’m energized by people. That was kind of one of the main things. I think the relinquishing of control, and that’s something that I’m able to do, I can still be incredibly passionate about something without being in full control of it, and I can apply that to my role. Now we’re actually expanding the team, and there’s other aspects of my role that have now involved other people where I can start again, relinquishing control, and it’s felt easier. [00:39:39] Joseph: Well, I do want to wrap up with something that I know you’re focused on right now, in addition to all of our Co, which is your work there at Native Design, can you tell me what you are currently working on doing right now at Native Design? And if anybody wants to learn more about what you do, where they can go. [00:39:58] Matt: Yes, I mentioned at the beginning we’re a design and innovation consultancy. We’ve been going 25 years, a team of 80 in central London. Yeah. Working across physical, industrial design and engineering and digital design, and working with clients of everything from start-ups all the way up to your fortune 500, designing products and digital experiences for them. It’s incredibly diversified, the work we do. We design speakers one minute, the laptops and other and the interiors of automotive medical products and always something different going on in the studio, which I find incredibly exciting. Always a different challenge to solve. It’s an exciting time now because we’re looking to grow, growing into different markets, so trying to move into climate tech. So looking at things like heat pumps, batteries, energy storage, that kind of thing. Growing more in medical technology and the life science industry as well. And everyone’s talking about it. Ai being the buzzword, but these are transforming these industries, and we are right at the forefront of how to implement this stuff. So it’s a really cool time to be in this role in it. Native. [00:41:07] Joseph: Thank you so much for telling us more about your life as a designer, Matt, as a business owner, and the balance that you have managed between full time employment and entrepreneurship. And as a proud owner myself of an Oliver Co card holder, I’ve bought plenty of your wallets and products and gifted them to friends. They’re all thrilled with them, so I definitely recommend people check out Oliver Co if people are interested in learning more about native design or even applying for a role, I hope that they’ll reach out to you and check out the company. And so I just wish you the best of luck with both Oliver Co and your work at Native Design. And thank you so much for coming on to the show. [00:41:43] Matt: No, not so. Thank you so much for having me. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Beautocracy Joseph Beg – Reflexion Hazy – Wonder WinkingFox – Background Ambient Corporate Podington Bear – Gathering Podington Bear – Trellis Podington Bear – Serenity Ciaran Delany – Two Rivers Scott Holmes Music – Autumn Leaves

What does it mean to live your best life? Is it achieving professional success? Financial freedom? Being physically fit? Having a loving family? Pursuing a clear purpose? All of the above? In episode 106 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sadaf Raza, a former investment banker turned brand marketer turned founder of Leadearly, a business school admissions consultancy. Sadaf provides unique perspectives on changing industries and shifting from full-time employment to running your own business. We discuss how to avoid the trap of doing what you feel you should do in your career so you can focus your efforts on what you want to do to honor your own values and priorities. She also shares a few helpful perspectives on how attending business school can enable your career pivot. 💡 Key Career Insights Speaking to people doing things you’re doing is an effective way to make a major transition rather than trying to do it all on your own. Taking small actions can give you much more clarity than analysis alone. You have to act in order for the path to emerge. You have to define your own measures of success so you can feel good about your own choices and live a life that makes you happy. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify the top pillars you’ve been dedicating your energies to in your life and career recently. Name them. Then, look honestly at what you’ve been prioritizing and consider whether you’ve been investing your energies into the right pillars that bring you joy. Avoid fixating on achieving the standard, societal definition of success. Dedicate your energy and resources to what makes you happy, not what you feel should make you happy. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:16 Chat with Sadaf 00:46:53 Mental Fuel 00:55:06 Listener Challenge 00:55:47 Wrap Up 👤  About Sadaf Raza Sadaf Raza is the founder of Leadearly, a leading admissions consultancy for Master’s, MBA, and Executive MBA programmes in the UK & Europe. Sadaf prides herself in being able to quickly identify and articulate an individual’s unique strengths, leveraging the industry expertise she’s gained herself through multiple career pivots to help candidates shape their business school applications. She’s worked as an Investment Banker at Bank of America, Brand Manager at Procter & Gamble, and Franchise Manager for EMEA at Johnson & Johnson, before starting her first entrepreneurial venture in retail. She has an MBA from INSEAD and is passionate about using her 20+ years of experience to help others accelerate in their careers. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:03:24] Joseph: Well, I know you’ve got a lot going on right now and there’s so much we want to cover today. I would love to start by just getting a sense of what you have been focused on professionally right now in your life, and then we can talk about anything going on for you personally in a moment. [00:03:38] Sadaf: So I’m an admissions consultant. I work with Masters, MBA and MBA applicants in the UK, Europe and beyond, and it’s just come to the end of the busiest admissions season. So it’s been full on and at the moment we’re doing lots of interviews I interview on behalf of Insead Business School, and so I really enjoy helping people prepare for their interviews, whether it’s for admission or for a job or a promotion that they’re working on. And I think as we come into the summer, there will be a lot more of that to come. So it’s been fun. I love what I do, so it doesn’t feel so much like work, but it’s been busy. [00:04:15] Joseph: I guess you’re familiar with lots of different business school programs. You work with lots of different business school applicants. Are you working with any particular type of cohort? Are these the people who want to do an MBA or an executive MBA or both? [00:04:29] Sadaf: I think because I myself am an alumni from Insead Business school, I tend to get a lot of Insead focused applicants, but most people are applying to multiple places. I also get a lot of master’s applicants for like specific subjects like economics or finance or management or marketing. So it’s a mix, and I think that makes it interesting for me also. [00:04:51] Joseph: What about personally anything keeping you especially busy recently in your your life outside of work? [00:04:57] Sadaf: I have a two boys that keep me exceptionally busy. Not in this season, but in all seasons. [00:05:04] Joseph: How old are your boys? [00:05:06] Sadaf: They are turning four this weekend and ten next month. [00:05:10] Joseph: Oh, wow. Okay. So, I guess very different types of challenges with those ages and different things that they’re doing. Well, I know that you haven’t always worked in this space as a business school admissions consultant. I do want to talk about your time working in a range of industries, including banking, marketing, and eventually talk a little bit more about lead early. I would love to go back in time a little bit. And first of all, talk about where you’re originally from. I know you’re based in the UK now. Where did you grow up, and can you tell me a little bit about that environment? [00:05:42] Sadaf: I grew up in Lahore in Pakistan, so very different environment. I’m one of four girls. I went to an all girls school. I was the first one in my family to go abroad to study. My parents didn’t know at the time that I applied, and it was just something that I really wanted to do. And then after that, all my female cousins sort of came there much more naturally. But yes, I was seeking new adventures and and opportunities, and I guess that’s what drove me. [00:06:13] Joseph: Now I have, as I mentioned to you before we started this recording, I have been to Lahore actually myself. Could you give people a glimpse into what life was like for you? What do you remember about your childhood growing up there? And can you paint a picture of just the overall environment, especially in the context of careers, what you thought you wanted to do when you grew up, what maybe you were told you should do when you grow up? What was that like for you over there? [00:06:40] Sadaf: I remember having sort of lots of long summers being bored. There was a lot of time with cousins. There was a lot of time with family. There was definitely girls versus boys. Things to do, you know, like a divide there. Yeah. It was a very happy, simple childhood. Let’s put it that way. [00:07:04] Joseph: How did you come to the decision to move to the UK? Because I would imagine that’s quite a leap to take, going from Pakistan all the way here to Europe. Do you remember how you started to think about wanting to move away from home? [00:07:20] Sadaf: It was just wanting opportunity. You know, I felt like a lot of things that you maybe saw on TV or, or you heard about was just not offered to you. Even things like sort of work experience while you were a student. I mean, nobody does that in Pakistan because you don’t have side jobs. It’s not safe. As a girl to do so. And I think that a lot of times I’d heard people say, girls can’t do this, right. So, for instance, I remember I used to debate in school like a lot of children now do. And I remember one of the semi-finals in the debating championships. I was from a girls school. We were up against the old boys school, a leading school, and one of the boys said, you know, girls can’t win from boys, you know, just 16 or 17 years old. And I remember being very pumped in my team and being like, yes, we’re going to do this. And then we ended up winning. You know, I won National Debater. I think that changed things for me. When you sort of somebody tells you you can’t do it and then you do. That was probably a year before this decision to apply to university. So I feel like, you know, when you do one small thing that you thought you couldn’t, that kind of gives you confidence to do the next thing. [00:08:35] Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit now about your time in the UK and that chapter of your career. There’s a lot to cover here. I’d love to start by talking about just your educational entry into the UK and what that transition was like for you, how that started to shape what you thought you might want to do professionally. [00:08:55] Sadaf: So when I came to London in my very first week, I thought, I’m a Londoner, I’m going to live here. This is amazing. And I signed up to every club or activity that there was at university. And then I was very focused on getting internships, because I knew that you need some experience to be able to do that. And while my degree was in computer science, the investment banks were the ones that were really hiring because you had to prove for a Pakistani student that nobody else in the country can do the job that you can do. And, you know, you’re like 17 or 18, 19. At the time, that felt like a tall ask. And so then I was kind of focused on, you know, getting all the help I could with building my CV and kind of getting help with my interview skills. And I guess this is what maybe motivates me to do what I do today, because I got a lot of help from well-meaning people along the way. And that advice paved the way for me. And and I enjoy doing that for other people. [00:09:52] Joseph: Now, you would eventually land at Bank of America as an investment banker. That is no small task to land a role like that coming out of university. Like, what do you attribute that to? Because it’s a very competitive industry. And as you mentioned, you’re coming here as a foreign student. How do you feel you were able to land a role for such a competitive role in a competitive industry? [00:10:17] Sadaf: Honestly, it was the right advice at the right time. I know I wasn’t the only one at a good university getting good grades. Everybody who was applying to these internships was I was just the person who at the time didn’t have the knowledge to pay for experts to help me, but I would speak to anybody who I thought had, you know, some advice to offer and got some very useful advice at the right time, because I think a lot of time people are willing and able, but they don’t recognize what is needed for a particular industry or a particular role. And I think that helped me then pitch myself in a very targeted way to those employers. [00:10:59] Joseph: Now, in terms of the investment banking world itself, I will say we haven’t had a tremendous number of AI bankers on the show, and I’d be interested just to get a glimpse into what that world was like for you. I know this was many years ago, but you spent three years in this industry. And I think when I think about the corporate world, I guess stereotypically AI, banking and maybe like consulting would be up there as one of the supposedly most, like cutthroat, intense competitive environments with long hours. What did you think you were getting into? And then what was the actual reality of working as an investment banker for you? [00:11:43] Sadaf: I mean, all that you hear about Workaholism is true. The culture was definitely be in before anybody else and leave after everybody else and be busy, you know, and be challenged. You want kind of explained tasks so well. It was sort of, you know, take your best attempt at doing the work and then somebody senior then you will improve it and eventually somebody will fix it and and give it forward. So it was a lot of thrown at the deep end. But at the same time it was very exciting. You know, doing the analyst training program in New York, you went and like lived in a hotel for I think it was ten weeks or something traveling and like having meetings with CEOs of companies. And you’re right there in the room with them and you’ve done some of the pitch work. So you are kind of presenting your numbers. The training was really good. I think for me, I always knew that I had a creative side, and I feel that my upbringing and the conditioning was those who could do Stem subjects did those, those who couldn’t, they would do more creative subjects. So while I was good at maths and I was good at more creative things, it was obvious I was pushed towards technical stuff because I was so lucky that I could. That’s when I realised, okay, I’m doing all this training, that’s great, but I want to do stuff that I’m very excited to do and I need that to be more creative. Structured finance was considered the most creative side of the bank, but it wasn’t quite the creativity I was looking for. And so I decided to move out of there. [00:13:14] Joseph: Now, how did you come to the decision to move into brand management? I hear you that you wanted to work in a more creative industry. Was marketing just the obvious next step for you? How did you come to that decision to move from banking into marketing? [00:13:30] Sadaf: It was not an obvious one. I didn’t know much about marketing at all, to be honest. I was confusing it with sales. You know, they were all mis matched in my brain. I didn’t know anybody who worked in marketing because then suddenly I was surrounded by everybody in finance and tech. And so that was tricky to figure out what I wanted to do. But actually, I think the admission essays for these business schools that I was applying to, because they make you write very detailed answers about specific short term, long term career strategy. And so I realized I don’t know much about this. Let me apply to something that sounds exciting. I thought Procter and Gamble was like this, you know, marketing school best in class, and I was the only one company I applied to. And I only intended to learn about brand management through the process. And then I ended up getting an offer from Insead and P&G the same weekend. But that was the whole idea of applying was to learn. And then I decided to take the plunge and do Procter and Gamble. And I was lucky enough to defer my entry to Insead, so I managed to do both, but it was a little bit of, I have an idea what I want to do, but I need to start doing it to figure it out. [00:14:43] Joseph: That’s a good weekend of news, I suppose. [00:14:46] Sadaf: Yes. [00:14:47] Joseph: And so you’ve got the option of going to business school. You have the option of going to one of the top tier consumer packaged goods companies. Was that a tricky decision for you to decide which to do first? Because I know I guess you could argue it either way, I guess. On the one hand, it’s good to get some additional experience before you get to business school, but on the other hand, I guess you could go to business school and learn the nuts and bolts of marketing before applying it. How did you think through that educational decision versus let me go further in my professional experiences? [00:15:19] Sadaf: I am the type of person who usually wants to do both, if I can. And so I realized that if I was more familiar with brand management, since I didn’t know much about it, I just had this one experience that would be more meaningful to then go to business school to use that knowledge and see where I want to go from there. And that was definitely the right decision, because when I did join Johnson and Johnson after Insead, they had a fast track leadership program and I jumped about 6 to 8 years in the marketing hierarchy because I had done the marketing and then I had come in now as a senior person. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but that worked out much better for me. And I do think before business school, most people use the business school to transition because they can’t transition without it. And so if you do have the opportunity to transition, it’s an immense learning experience to know what it is that you want to do by being in it a little bit. And so I think that was a better strategy. [00:16:19] Joseph: What was the world of brand management like for you at Procter and Gamble and J&J? Did you feel like you were able to feed that creative thirst that you had? And how was that career chapter sitting with you personally? Do you recall what that was like? [00:16:35] Sadaf: Yes, I loved it. The creativity, it felt quite natural. It was very practical. You know, you go into stores and you see your products everywhere, and I would fix it on a shelf if I saw something in boots. And it was a great learning experience. Also practically like when I did entrepreneurship later, sort of the brand marketing training was about, you know, understanding consumers, understanding your brand, understanding how to get more consumers to buy from you. And I think that was very valuable training. [00:17:09] Joseph: One other thing I think that comes up sort of, with people who make these radical industry changes is sort of a sense of, I don’t know how to put this, but a bit of tension between trying to maintain your past trajectory or to go off and make a leap, which is, I think, what you did here and pursue something that you actually genuinely feel passionate about. Was it a struggle at all for you to walk away from the banking world? And I don’t mean that as like a leading question, but given that it’s so competitive to get in, was there any part of you that felt like so many people would want this role? Maybe I should stick with this? Or was that not really an issue? [00:17:48] Sadaf: No, absolutely. People thought I was ungrateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to reject it. Like, who would do that? And to be clear, I was very grateful. I appreciated, you know, I could not have stayed in the country if I hadn’t had the job. And I learned so much. But it was when I started speaking to people, actually, I spoke to a career coach at the time. And, you know, the advice to me was, stick it out longer here. Don’t leave yet because the good part is coming. And then I realized, but when I have more experience in finance, but then I want to change, it’s going to actually be even harder because the opportunity cost is going to be even more. And I’m now going to be more of an expert in finance. So if you want to stay within the industry and pivot, maybe that more experience can be handy. But if you want to change industry, then Actually, it’s better to get out earlier because it just only gets harder the longer you stay. [00:18:48] Joseph: So you are enjoying your time at J&J. You’re loving the world of brand management and the creative outlet that it provides. I know eventually you would shift into doing some more entrepreneurial endeavors. How did that come about and how did things start for you having some entrepreneurial business on the side? [00:19:12] Sadaf: So I had two business partners on the ground in Pakistan when I started the retail venture, and it was really a conversation that came up about a business opportunity in the retail space. As somebody with an entrepreneurial flair, I just saw the opportunity in it. And then as somebody who had now done business school, I could see the potential in it. Bit. And as somebody who is a marketeer, the excitement of building a brand from scratch without anything constricting you was super exciting. And lastly, as somebody who was ambitious, then kind of determining my own fate and being able to run, which is what I wanted to do at the time, felt like more exciting than the perfectly happy career I had in Brand Manager. And so those are the reasons I decided to take that leap. [00:20:05] Joseph: Now I’m just looking at the timeline here. So if I’ve got this correct, correct me if I’m wrong here, but you’re at J&J from 2010 to 2012. Letelier, which is this venture that you mentioned that you co-founded in Pakistan that’s running from 2010 to 2016. So it seems like there was some overlap here. How did you manage that? J&j like that’s a pretty intense not intense. But like I guess it’s quite a demanding job at this company. And at the same time you’re trying to start this other business in Pakistan remotely. How did you balance that? [00:20:38] Sadaf: So I think of Natalia as my first child. [00:20:41] Joseph: Okay. [00:20:42] Sadaf: And as any parent would tell you, you have no idea what you’re getting into. And then you somehow find the time to keep this child alive and thriving while having a full time job. And you’re probably just sleepless. You’re tired, but you’re excited. You know you’re doing them both. So that’s exactly how it was so exciting. And yes, and I definitely could not have done it with two partners on the ground. But I did the business development and the marketing things that I enjoyed my forte. And yes, the business did really well. And that kind of is another encouragement that keeps you going. [00:21:18] Joseph: The other thing I was curious about is because it sounds like you were balancing both for a while and at the same time, eventually, again, if I’ve got the timeline right here, you would dedicate your time full time to working on lately. How did you come to that decision to let go of the steady, full time work and to dedicate yourself 100% to what was, I suppose, initially a side hustle, but eventually would be your full time focus? [00:21:49] Sadaf: Yes. So it was the success of Le Tellier. We were profitable from day one. Our business model was very good. And so not just in revenue, I mean profitability. We made our money back in 15 months. This was, you know, big 6000ft² retail space. We were running. And then we grew into our own label, a salon on the retail premises, online store. And it was a point where we were going to open another store in another city, which was also going to be even bigger, like 10,000ft² of space. And I thought, okay, I am ready. I need to be on the ground and I need to take this to the next level. [00:22:29] Joseph: What do you remember during those first days of going from going to an office to kind of being in it with Letelier, and I suppose doing a wide range of a lot of things all at once. What was that transition like for you? [00:22:46] Sadaf: It was very exciting. It was like, it’s like you’re obsessed with this project. You know, you’re always thinking about it. You always have ideas around it. I mean, I didn’t have children at the time, so it was easier to be, you know, all in. And there was a lot happening. But I have very happy memories of that period. [00:23:03] Joseph: So then I guess this then begs the question. So it sounds like things are going well there. You guys are growing rapidly. On paper, this looks like a pretty good transition you’re running Letelier. Things are going well. It sounds like it’s super exciting. Where does lead? Early, then? Come into the picture. How did that enter into this world of entrepreneurship for you? [00:23:27] Sadaf: Yes. So there were two things happening there. One was the retail industry, which has struggled worldwide. We had similar issues with retail, so you either had to like double down and go into production or something, or you were just paying three times more for the same retail space because the laws had changed and the economics was just not there in the same way. And then at the same time as I was thinking, do I want to kind of, you know, go into production now in Pakistan, I contemplated what was it that I was really passionate about because the retail opportunity was because my business partners were passionate about the sector, and I saw the business opportunity in it. And as I thought about my own passions, that’s where the education industry became apparent to me, because I was always the sort of person who was a lifelong learner. I really valued all the investment and learning I made and how it changed my trajectory, and I really wanted to help people kind of learn from not just my experiences, but the experiences of all the people I now had access to in my network who were doing really well. And that’s when I felt like, okay, this is a space that I would like to play in. [00:24:43] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here just a little bit. Now set off and talk about this solo venture of yours, because you guys you were working on lately with a couple of business partners. What’s different about this is you’re running this on your own, and I’d love to hear a little bit about what the early days were like for you in like 2016, when you were just trying to get this idea off the ground? Like, what do you remember? I guess I’m thinking about the good, the bad and the ugly as you’re trying to take this idea of working in the education space and turn it into something concrete. [00:25:20] Sadaf: I bootstrapped it. That was always my business style, you know, like, have the business make money and then reinvest it. And initially, it was very exciting. It was kind of like that. It’s the lean product. I’m forgetting the term, but it’s basically you kind of you’re selling the idea and you’re making the product at the same time, right? And it’s just you and your and you’re running with it. It was very exciting. I was led by creativity. And so in that period, I mean, I made a simulation from scratch. And I had like, you know, so much exciting stuff going on. So it was great, but it was also very busy because it was just one of me. And so it was nonstop. You were running before you could walk, and you were kind of doing that all over again. So it was quite tough, that bit of it. It was relentless. [00:26:04] Joseph: I’m just thinking you mentioned you’ve got a ten year old son. And so this is I guess 26. [00:26:09] Sadaf: The math that you’re doing is I love it. [00:26:11] Joseph: It’s like basic math. [00:26:12] Sadaf: Every date. [00:26:13] Joseph: Not investment banking math basic math here. But so he’s entering the picture here, I guess at the exact same time that you’re trying to get this off the ground. And I’m just curious how you managed that because you got this newborn. I think that is coinciding with you trying to get this business started. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that balance. [00:26:36] Sadaf: Let me add one more thing to the mix to make it more exciting for you, Joseph. The week I actually launched, literally, I was living in UAE at the time, so in Dubai was the week I moved back to London. [00:26:48] Joseph: Was that intentional? [00:26:50] Sadaf: So the idea was I was planning to move back to London and I wanted to test the idea out in Dubai. I kind of wanted to do a pilot, and the pilot took off, and it made sense to kind of fuel the fire where it was burning, but starting it in London because it was already had started in Dubai. And so I just kept running with that then. And I had a little baby and living in the country. Yes, it was a lot. [00:27:21] Joseph: I would also be curious to hear about the evolution of lead early. So you’re coming up, I guess, to ten years of running this thing. How has your business changed or not changed over the past few years? [00:27:37] Sadaf: Yes. So it has changed. I changed my business model, going with kind of conventional business school wisdom about scale, which is what I was doing at the time. So we were growing like 2 or 300%, but it wasn’t enough. You just had to keep reinvesting and keep growing. I realized that I wanted to do a business that was more a freedom first sort of model, and I’d love to hear your thoughts because I feel you live in the same space. [00:28:04] Joseph: Yeah, we can. [00:28:04] Sadaf: Talk about that. Like, you know, you’re building all of this to one day, eventually exit. You know, you don’t know when that day is going to be. And this period just feels like really intense and non-stop. You know, I had one child, I wanted to have another child at the time. And I was like, how am I going to fit this all in? And then Covid happened, which in some ways was a gift to me personally because I couldn’t travel to Dubai. They were very strict about the way the program was categorized. You know, you could not operate it. There was no distancing way of running it. It was kind of in the banned stuff category for a while. Parents who were sending their children to homeschool will remember that was not a pleasant experience, and nobody wanted to have more screen time for their children, you know, beyond school hours. And that took me back to the drawing board. And then I thought, okay, I still want to be in education. I still really want to help people with all that I have learned. But how do I do it in a in a meaningful way that supports a life that I have, that gives me freedom to spend time with my children, to look after my health, my family, but also help people in a significant way. And this period in their lives when they’re applying to university. And it can make the difference between them going to a second year university or a premier university. I mean, that totally changes your options. Or if you are, you know, applying for a job and you’re not getting it, getting that job means economic transformation for yourself and your family. That felt really something worth doing. And so that’s how I pivoted. And I am here in this version of lead early today. [00:29:49] Joseph: Am I correct in thinking that this is still just you at this point, running the day to day, and you are the one doing the consulting? [00:29:56] Sadaf: Yes, by design it is me who will directly work with any candidate. And I don’t plan to have like a team of staff because I want to be able to do this work directly. This is what I enjoy doing with people. And I have, of course, teams of people, agencies helping me do stuff. But the idea is on a need basis. I hire people for the role that they’re providing, but I don’t want to have scale an organization with lots of employees as a business model. And I understand, Joseph, you do something similar. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this too. [00:30:29] Joseph: There’s a really interesting topic for me because I don’t know about you, but as somebody who runs my own business and has run my own business for over a decade now, I will say that it’s quite often that I’ll get questions from other people, especially people I think, in the coaching space, because I guess technically I sit in that industry like the coaching industry, and I regularly get questions about like, are you thinking about growing your team? Have you thought about scaling this? Questions about like passive income streams, and I, like you, have resisted, I guess, the temptation or the pressure to scale or to try to scale. And at the same time, it just comes up a lot in discussion. And it’s something that does make me think about it. Like I think about like, am I doing this the right way? Should I be scaling? Like, should I be growing? Is this not big enough? Is this not fancy enough? And so it’s something that I have wrestled with over the years. But I’ve always come back to some of the things that you mentioned, which is just that I do prioritize the flexibility. I’m also a parent, and with our daughter, seven years old, I want to be able to maximize my time with her, and I feel like that’s easier to do if it’s just me, but it’s come up a lot. And yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you have thought about that, or maybe deflected any of the incoming questioning that you’ve gotten, especially because you have been in a situation where you did run a business that was scaling and was growing exponentially. So yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you’ve thought through that. [00:32:03] Sadaf: I feel like my business is still growing. I like the fact that I work with a select number of people, but I can choose who I work with. I’m still kind of pushing myself outside my comfort zone doing some new things, so I still feel it’s exciting. And so for me, I think this is a lesson in life that, you know, even when I did banking, for instance, you know, there’s well-meaning people giving you good advice about what would be better for your future. You have to kind of take that in, but then you have to remember you are the expert on yourself and the only one at that. And you have to think about, okay, what is it that will really make me happy? What is it that I’m trying to solve for or do? And does this add to that? Or is this just a good opportunity or something that somebody thinks is a good idea, but maybe it’s not for you at this point in time? And so I am much better now at asking myself the question and deciding independently and with clarity that actually, you know, this is what suits me. This is what I’m looking for more of in my life right now. It feels really good. But you have to keep remembering that because it doesn’t stop people, you know, asking you and well-meaning meaning giving you advice, and so you have to take it as a gift and then use it or or just put it on the side. [00:33:24] Joseph: I do want to talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your journey. And also, I’d love to cover a little bit around getting into business school and any tips you have for people on that. But before we do that, you mentioned something that you want to have more of in your life, which makes me think of the topic of wealth, where people are traditionally measuring wealth in terms of material possessions or money that you’ve earned or financial assets you’ve accumulated. And at the same time, I guess you’re mentioning a different type of wealth, which is more like lifestyle wealth, which is freedom and control of your time, the ability to have a flexible schedule so you can spend time with the people you want to spend time with. How has your measure of wealth evolved over the years? And I guess I’m thinking about this because in the context of you, because you started off in the investment banking industry, which is about as financially focused as an industry can get. And now you’re someone who’s focused much more on these other lifestyle aspects of wealth. And I’d love to hear a little bit about how your measures of wealth, or what you have wanted to have more of, has evolved for you over the years. [00:34:36] Sadaf: It’s a great question. So there’s two things that come to mind. One is I think there was a study done by Harvard maybe where they asked, I don’t know how many people on their deathbed, what they wish they had done differently. And nobody said earn more money or work more. And everybody said some version of spend more time with the people that matter to me. And I think as you kind of think about your future, I think it’s wise to learn from people who are already at that end of their life and looking back. And so I think that was a good lesson to have. And the second conversation was with my sister once during my crazy scaling stage where I was plugging in numbers in my business model and she asked me, you know, how’s it going? And I said, oh, I’ve made quite a conservative projection and it does not feel so exciting. And she said, oh, really? Okay. Doesn’t matter. And then the next day I went to her and I said, oh, I’m so excited. She said, what happened? I said, I just changed my projections a little bit and made them less conservative and actually, like, this is amazing, you know? [00:35:37] Sadaf: And she’s like, wow, what are you going to do with all this money, you know? And then I came up with something really simple, like I was like I would love to get lots of massages. And she said, that doesn’t cost that much money. And I realized you’re right. Why am I doing all this? It’s the things that I want to be doing. I can do that now. So it was that realization of the world conditions us into a lot of ego driven goals. And I feel like we think that that’s what we should be doing if we can, because somehow that’s the measure of success. But actually, if I think about, okay, what’s the money I have, where do I want to spend it? I will still, you know, want to get value. I still want to, you know, the things that I actually need. If I break them down, I’m like, actually, this is a way I can do everything that I want to do and more. And so that’s really what I should, you know, break it down to and then work around versus just kind of success as a kind of trajectory of just monetary growth, which is, of course, part of it. Because if you don’t have enough money, you’re going to want to make more money. But I think it’s the whole kind of work, play, love, health that has to come into at least it does for my ideal life. [00:36:50] Joseph: I feel like there’s such a default assumption that one’s salary must go up with every subsequent move, or that you must be earning more. You must be scaling. And I remember when I started my business, I actually, like, felt really uncomfortable with my salary because it was significantly lower initially, at least than my corporate salary. And I remember I was talking with my friend Hitesh and I was talking to him about this and he just said, look, are you able to do the things that you want to do? When I thought about it, I thought, you know what? Yeah. Like I’m not not doing anything because of finances. I’m still able to do the things I want to do. But I think we sometimes almost like glorify money. I’m not saying that people don’t need money, but I think that beyond a certain level, that incremental benefit is sometimes not as great as you think it is. And so. So, yeah, but money is an interesting topic to think about. I would love to finish up by just asking you a couple questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, set off of your very interesting career journey, and then finish up with a couple of business school questions for you. If you had to give yourself any advice to your younger self as it relates to navigating career pivots, what might that be? [00:38:06] Sadaf: The first thing I would say is In anything you want to do. There are experts that exists and people who are already doing it. And the more you can get closer to speaking to those people who are maybe doing the ideal thing you’re doing, or pay for advice like people like you. Joseph, I wish I had met you then to, you know, get the help to transition because I think it feels hard on your own. And I feel like all the support you can get in that process, I think, is worth it, because it’s hard, even with the support, you know, you still have to make things happen. And the second thing that I would encourage other people to do who are thinking about transitioning in any way is the action part. I think people live. We all live too much in our heads. Pros and cons and evaluating. And I think that if you take little action towards whatever thing you think, maybe I should test it out. I think investing to test is the best thing that gives you clarity, that just analysis alone will never give you so small step in the right direction and the options get clearer and the path emerges. You sort of have to just act in that direction first. [00:39:18] Joseph: And having been through this career change journey, what’s one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way? [00:39:26] Sadaf: I think I’ve learned that I can do anything I set my mind to doing. And I think I have to choose wisely because once I have decided this is what I’m going to do, then I’m going to do it. [00:39:40] Joseph: Final question here for you before I hit you with a couple lightning round questions around business school. But when you look back on your career change, is there anything that you wished you had known about changing careers that you now know. [00:39:53] Sadaf: That is going to be okay? There’s a fear of the unknown. And actually, looking back, each step was me seeking out something that was calling to me and getting me closer to the life I wanted to live. So all the kind of anxiety around should I or shouldn’t I? How would I just do it? [00:40:15] Joseph: I can’t let you go without asking you a couple questions about your area of expertise, which is around getting into business school and thinking about going to business school. I would love to hear your perspectives on how somebody can think through whether or not they should go to business school. Are there a couple of things that or a couple triggers that you feel should prompt somebody into thinking that, hey, now might be a good time to think about going to business school. [00:40:42] Sadaf: If you in your education before that point in time, you feel like maybe you didn’t go to the best school that you could have, or you feel like you could study something else that you didn’t know at the time weren’t offered at the time. I think it’s a great way of getting that kind of stamp on your CV, and for you to really explore so many wider topics and read so many inspiring people who then become your network and help you navigate life for the years beyond business school. And so I think it makes sense to make that investment in yourself. I feel like a lot of times people again measure it with success, which is typically like your job straight after business school. And of course, that’s an important aspect, but I feel so much of the benefit is for years to come. It’s the life that you lead with like minded people who are inspiring you and who are helping you problem solve whatever you are trying to do in your life, be it personal or business. And I think that’s a huge addition to your quality of life. [00:41:46] Joseph: I also know that you mentioned you only applied to Insead for business school. Coincidentally, I also when I was applying to business school, I only applied to one business school, which was the University of Michigan, where I eventually did my MBA. How should somebody think about like the number of schools to apply to? Now, you and I are extreme cases where we only apply to one. I suppose there’s another extreme where you’re applying to hundreds or whatever. I know this must vary on a case by case basis, but how do you think somebody should think about how many schools to apply to, especially in the context of somebody perhaps being a busy professional like you were when you applied to business school? [00:42:24] Sadaf: Three is a good number, 3 to 5 if you want to have some kind of backup. But I would rather focus your energy and make the best three applications that you can do and get into all three. Ideally, then hedge your bets with more, because I don’t think applying to more increases your chances. I think it’s about being very targeted, understanding the uniqueness of that business school, understanding the story that you have and what you offer, and then making that match obvious to them. And I think that takes time. And so if you’re going to try to do that with too many, you’re probably not going to do a good job. So it’s worth Are doing more effort for fewer ones and highlighting just how important they are to you and how much of a match you are for them. [00:43:12] Joseph: And any common mistakes that you see amongst applicants who are trying to get into business school that you tend to notice come up time and time again that people should consider or try to avoid. [00:43:23] Sadaf: Yes, so many, but I would say be as specific as possible. I think when people are trying to write in, you know, beautiful words and they often kind of miss the point. And it’s very important to zero in on the content. And even though you’re going to business school to open your options, you need to have done the work before, perhaps with someone to understand exactly what your career trajectory could look like, what you’re aiming for and know, kind of the company you might want to work for, the kind of work you want to do, the geography you want to be in, be very self aware of yourself. And again, the more specifics you can put in there, the more it shows that you are truly knowledgeable and will make the most of the experience. [00:44:07] Joseph: Well, speaking of getting the right help from the right person, I know this is one of your areas of expertise. Can you just finish up by telling us just a couple of the key services that you provide to prospective applicants, and where people can go to learn more about the work that you do? [00:44:23] Sadaf: Sure. So I work with candidates through the whole process, from figuring out which universities to apply to which course, understanding what is amazing in their story. A lot of times people are unaware of between all the things they’ve done, which would be most exciting for this university, and then doing the CV, the essays, the interviews, you know, choosing between offers, applying for scholarships, the whole round. And as part of that, when I find candidates who don’t have relevant work experience, for instance, and they need an internship on their CV, or they need to get to a particular type of promotion or work for their CV to be ready for their next educational journey. I help with them sort of end to end with the process. And I do that by. All my years of experience in different industries, I think that gives me a maturity to. Applications and writing about careers in a way that reflects well on the candidates after we’ve had those conversations. And my website is lead early. And so if anybody wants to get in touch, just drop us a line. [00:45:25] Joseph: Thank you so much, Sada, for first of all, talking to us about your very interesting career journey, the twists and the turns. How you made that transition from the corporate world into running lead early, and also just some of the tough questions that you’ve had to wrestle with and to get some clarity on yourself as you’ve tried to figure out what sort of business can work for you and the kind of life that you want to have. So I wish you the best with lead early, and I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who could benefit from working with someone like you. So it’s great that you’re offering this service to people out there. So thank you for all the work that you’re doing too. And thanks for coming on to the show. [00:45:58] Sadaf: Thank you Joseph. It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed chatting to you. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Button Mushrooms Trevor Kowalski – New Ambitions Podington Bear – Epiphany Alan Ellis – Myth Podington Bear – Bright White Podington Bear – Tarnish Morning Garden – Acoustic Chill Rand Aldo – Paramount Crowning

Have you ever fallen out of love with your job, even one you initially enjoyed? All of our careers go through ups and downs, and sometimes, we go on much-needed detours to clarify who we are and what we want our professional experiences to be. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 105, Sally Chamley shares her journey of professional reinvention, going from a primary school teacher to a business school program coordinator. She shares the emotional challenges of leaving a beloved teaching career behind, the dynamics the transitioning into a new sector, and developing new skills along the way. We discuss how our work environments can have a huge impact on career satisfaction and the importance of recognizing when your job no longer aligns with your true self. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share practical advice about how to figure out if your job still aligns with who you are and who you want to be. 💡 Key Career Insights When you start to dislike my weekdays or if you feel unfulfilled and disconnected from yourself, it may be a sign you’re misplaced in your career. If you’re not engaged in professional activities or behaviors you feel align with who you are, at some point, you have to ask yourself how long you can continue living that way. You may feel your skills are not transferrable when transitioning into a new sector, but you will only know if this is true by trying out new things. You may be surprised how much your past experiences help you in seemingly unrelated roles. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge For this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d challenge you to take a moment to assess your current professional situation. Find a few minutes to consider how energized you feel by your work. Consider how happy you are with who you are. Decide whether you still feel like yourself. Take stock of where things stand right now. Consider whether your responses are satisfactory to you. If they are, great, you’re in good shape. But if your responses leave you feeling like you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time in your professional journey right now, consider exploring what else is out there. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:44 Chat with Sally 00:38:57 Mental Fuel 00:45:29 Listener Challenge 00:46:27 Wrap Up 👤 About Sally Chamley Sally Chamley, originally from a Ohakune, New Zealand. After completing her Master’s degree at the Victoria University of Wellington, she spent six rewarding years as a primary school teacher. She eventually moved to London, inspired by the city’s opportunities and eager to expand her horizons. She initially continued teaching, but soon felt the pull to explore something else. Since 2024, she’s been working as a Programme Coordinator in the Finance suite at Imperial College Business School, where we first crossed paths. 👍🏻 Let Us Know If You Enjoyed This Episode Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Bluesky. 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. 📄 Episode Transcript 03:05 Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School 05:05 Sally’s Background and Teaching Journey 08:01 Challenges and Rewards of Teaching 21:00 Transition to the UK 21:57 Starting a Teaching Career in the UK 22:40 Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher 26:17 Career Struggles and Realizations 28:45 Transitioning Out of Teaching 33:25 Landing a New Role at Imperial 34:41 Lessons Learned and Advice 38:53 Mental Fuel: Recognizing Who You Are [00:02:53] Sally: Morning. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:56] Joseph: Well, let’s just start by talking about what’s happening in your world right now. What have you been focused on recently in your work and your life? Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School [00:03:05] Sally: So I’m currently working at Imperial Business School in the finance suite. I’m a program coordinator for the risk. management and financial engineering master’s program. So I have 170 students and I’m essentially the logistical expert for that master’s program. I look after those students and guide them through their degrees. I liaise with the module leaders and the teaching assistants and just make sure that all the classes are running smoothly, that students have guidance on their careers and that they’re getting their grades and their assignments all running smoothly. [00:03:40] Joseph: I guess we should say that we’re recording this toward the end of 2024 and so you’ve been in your role for a few months. How have things been going for you in terms of just your day-to-day life? How are you enjoying the role? [00:03:55] Sally: Yeah, really enjoying it. Imperial is such a great place to be working. I’m just constantly surrounded by real critical thinkers who are just developing their fields. It’s a really fast paced job with different times of the year creating different types of work and learning. We welcomed our new cohort of students in September. So that was full of first week of uni and different welcome days and team-building activities. So it’s been really special to bring on a new group of students. They’re currently in the autumn term and starting to get ready for exams. So you’re really into the workload at the moment and really busy with that. So it’s just constantly changing depending on the time of the year and what’s happening for those students. Personal Life and Travel [00:04:39] Joseph: What about you personally right now in your life that you’re devoting your energies to outside of work when you can find the time for it? [00:04:48] Sally: Well, I’m over in London and here for such a short amount of time, a couple of years. So travel is so big on the list. It’s how many countries can I hit before I have to go home? I’m off to Ireland next weekend. So really looking forward to that and just keep adding holidays. [00:05:05] Joseph: You haven’t always been a program coordinator at Imperial College Business School, Sally, and I should probably say upfront that you and I actually first crossed paths a few months ago. Because your team invited me to speak at a welcome event for your incoming students and we were chatting before I went up on stage and that’s when I first learned that before you joined Imperial, you used to be a primary school teacher. Sally’s Teaching Journey [00:05:28] Joseph: I want to hear all about that and go back to that chapter in your career. But before we talk about your time as a teacher, can you tell me a little bit about where you’re from? You mentioned home there. And also where you grew up. [00:05:40] Sally: I’m from New Zealand. I’m from a little town called Ohakune, which is in the middle of the North Island. Small town, 900 people of permanent residents there. And I wanted to be a teacher. I went to university to be a teacher. I did my undergrad and my Master’s degree to become a teacher. And then I was a teacher in Wellington for 6 years. For generally 5 and 6 year olds. [00:06:06] Joseph: It sounds like you very quickly decided you wanted to become a teacher. Childhood and Inspiration to Teach [00:06:10] Joseph: What do you remember about your childhood? And I’d be specifically interested to hear about what you used to enjoy doing as a child. Was teaching something that you I guess liked from a very early age? [00:06:22] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I had some fantastic teachers growing up and being in such a small community. They were teachers that I knew outside of school as well. You know, they were my parents’ friends. And so they just provided such great relationships and really were able to build you up, not only through your English and your maths, but also through who you were as a person and how it provides so many life skills for you. And that was so inspiring as a child, knowing that. You can help me with my spelling, but also help me learn kindness and patience. And that’s something that I wanted to be able to do when I was growing up. [00:06:58] Joseph: At what point did you feel like you officially began your journey toward becoming a teacher? Was it actually when you began your studies, or did it occur to you earlier on when you were a child that, hey, this is what I want to do professionally? I know I like what teachers do, but this is what I actually want to become. [00:07:17] Sally: Probably in high school when you taking different subjects. I always took dance and being able to start leading different groups and being the person, I guess, in charge and empowering others became something really special. And so I knew at that point I wanted to go into some sort of teaching and it wasn’t until. My last year of high school that it was okay. Actually, I want to do primary school teaching and focus on those early milestones for Children. [00:07:48] Joseph: So you mentioned you studied to become a teacher. I, if I have this right, you studied education and psychology at Victoria University of Wellington. [00:07:57] Sally: Correct. [00:07:57] Joseph: Eventually did your Master’s in teaching and learning. Juliet1>Challenges and Rewards of Teaching [00:08:01] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your time as a teacher. What year did you teach or was there a particular age group that you taught and how would you describe the makeup or the profile of the children in your class? [00:08:12] Sally: I generally taught the younger years. So I had five and six year olds. They were in their first and second year of school in New Zealand. We have such a rich culture of Māori and Pasifika. Our culture and our indigenous history is so wound up into our education. So that for me is such a huge part of teaching, teaching the Māori language and culture and the Kaupapa within the classroom. So I had amazing students. I had students from small communities that had rich family histories and just loved. Being at school, children who are five and six love everything. They love being at school. They love learning. And something that I loved about teaching was seeing those light bulb moments for students when they understand something, when they can do something by themselves. And that was what helped make you want to go to school every day. [00:09:03] Joseph: They got that age. Five to six is, is really special. As you may recall, Sally, I have a daughter named Juliet. And when you and I met, she was actually six at the time. She just recently turned seven. She’s now in year two of primary school. And I’ve volunteered at some of her school events just to help out. Like I’ve spoken in one of her classrooms before I’ve joined her field trips. And boy, do I have a huge respect for what teachers do for our kids every single day. My sister was a teacher in the Bronx for several years. As I was dropping her off this morning at school, I was thinking about what sort of questions to ask you about your life as a teacher, but before I get to mine over breakfast this morning, I asked Juliet if she had a question that she would want to ask you, and if you could indulge me for a moment. I’m just going to play this because I asked her, hey, if you could ask a teacher a question, what would it be? Because I’m about to speak to one. So I thought it might be fitting for a child who’s the same age as those kids you used to teach to ask the first question today. And then I’ll get to mine. Managing a Classroom [00:10:06] Juliet: My question is how do you stay on top of the class? And how do you get all the children to listen? [00:10:12] Joseph: And maybe we could take those one at a time. How do you stay on top of all the work that you need to do for the class? Because obviously you’re teaching and you’re managing the classroom all day. So how do you keep up with, I guess, like coursework planning and lesson planning? [00:10:29] Sally: Teaching is not for the fainthearted. It’s a big job with lots of different areas to it. You’ve got your time when you’re in with the children, between nine and three, where you’re doing teaching. You’re running assessments. You’re working one on one and building relationships. And then outside of those nine to three hours, you are doing everything else. You are planning all your lessons. You’re making resources. You’re attending staff meetings, team meetings. professional development, you’re meeting with parents, you’re creating the production, you’re working with the netball team, you have a hundred jobs as a teacher. And I guess you just have to manage your time really efficiently, understand that the different aspects of the day, you know, you fully commit to your in-classroom teaching during nine to three, and what can I get done before nine o’clock, what can I get done? After three o’clock, I would often be at school 7:30 to 5:30 to get work done. Coming in the weekends, I would bring work home with me. You’re busy, really busy, and you don’t have the break until the end of the academic year, where school finishes. You have about a week, you clear out your classroom, tie up all those loose things, and then you’ve got a couple of weeks off before you are there, two weeks before school starts getting ready to go again. [00:11:51] Joseph: Yeah, it’s a lot. Because I know you manage the students there now at Imperial who eventually want to work in primarily the banking or the finance sector. And so we always talk about the long hours that professionals like bankers work, but actually teachers are working very long hours because you’re working at school. And then after you come home from school, you got to plan for the next day at school. What about just keeping the class under control? I don’t think we talked about this, but like how many kids did you have? And how did you go about just maintaining order in the classroom day in and day out? [00:12:24] Sally: It really depends on the age group that you teach, but I would have anywhere between 23 to 30 children in a class at a time. And it would grow as the year went on, as students arrived to the school. But you put on your teaching persona, you have a very special teacher’s voice that only comes out when you’re in the classroom, you’ve got your teacher look that we all know. And I think something that comes down to it is building that relationship with the students and gaining their respect. And that’s so key to being able to get anything to happen in the classroom. You know, those students have to trust you and have to respect you to be able to want to listen. So I think that’s really important, but you do need your teacher voice and your teacher eyes as well. [00:13:10] Joseph: When I think about Juliet’s educational journey so far, as her parent observing her, I’ve seen how every single year of an educational journey is very formative, if you think about going all the way from preschool to year two, which is where she now is, and when I think about her time as a year one student, I feel like that year had an enormously awe inspiring. positive impact on her development academically, socially, physically. And I don’t know if this is just what happens at that age or her own natural development, but I suspect it was due in no small part. to the fact she had an absolutely phenomenal teacher who was actually in her first year of teaching when Juliet had her. So big shout out to Miss Hudson, whom we felt like really took the time to understand her, like her strengths, her struggles, and help her grow in a way. that aligned with who Juliet was and is. We felt like Miss Hudson really saw Juliet and made an effort to understand her and really every child in that class. And even now, Juliet still talks about Miss Hudson as being one of her favorite teachers. And you mentioned respect there, Sally. It’s not just because Juliet liked her. She did like her, but it’s also because Juliet really respected her and thought that she was effective at teaching and managing the class. And I saw this, I witnessed this firsthand when I saw her in action at the field trip, in front of class assemblies, and it just got me thinking, one of the things that really struck me about her year one teacher was that she managed to strike that balance between being liked and being respected by the children. How do you strike that balance? To what extent are those mutually exclusive? Or do they go hand-in-hand? [00:14:58] Sally: It’s so lovely to hear that your daughter’s teacher takes such the time to build that relationship because I think, you know, that’s so core to teaching philosophies is building that relationship. And you’re only going to get the best out of the student if you know them well. And they feel like you know them and they feel like you care about them. That’s the only way to get any teaching and learning done is actually by building that trust with them first. And a child knows. If you don’t like them, I think we see that in teaching when we can all think back to a teacher that we’ve had that hasn’t been particularly nice to you as a teacher that calls you out when actually it was your friend that was talking, you know, we can all think back to those kind of situations. So for the most part, I would say teachers probably love all their students, but I think you’ve got to understand that you’re also the adult in the classroom and you really need to make sure that. As the adult, you are being kind to everyone and giving everyone a chance. Misconceptions About Teaching [00:16:03] Joseph: Did you feel like there were any misconceptions out there about teaching that you either feel exist or maybe you even had yourself about what life is like as a teacher? [00:16:17] Sally: Absolutely. I think the first thing that people say to you when you say, Oh, I’m a teacher, they go, Oh, great. Easy. You babysit nine to three, and then you have so many holidays. That’s how teachers are seen. You’ve just got lots and lots of holidays. So that’s always a bit of a hard pill to swallow because you know how hard you work, and you know how hard the teaching community works, and you’re not often seen. As a professional, the skills that it takes to be a teacher is absolutely incredible. You’re building the milestones for future generations. And so that’s always quite hard to not be looked upon in that light from peers, from the government, from anyone around you. So that’s something that I think all teachers probably face. [00:17:04] Joseph: Why do you think that is, Sally? Why do you think that the professionals out there who were kind of entrusting our children with day in and day out are not perceived in the same way as the types of people that you cross paths with these days, who are more like people who go work in corporate offices, people who work on Canary Wharf. What do you attribute that discrepancy in perception to? [00:17:28] Sally: Sometimes I wonder that because everybody’s been to school. Everyone knows how school works. Everyone has been a student in school for so many years and seen how. school looked for them and just assume that it’s easy. You know, they were at school, so why can’t they be the teacher? It must be really easy to do. Sometimes I wonder that, especially when you hear from parents and they give you advice about, oh, well, we used to do it like this at school. Maybe you should do this. Have you tried this? And you’re sitting there going, actually, I’ve been to university for four years to learn how to do this. I’m constantly in professional development, learning new skills and how to teach this. Just because you did this one subject at school doesn’t mean that you have all the knowledge, you know, I’m working my best here [00:18:17] Joseph: before we talk about your transition to the UK. I did have one more question about your teaching, at least as a full time teacher, before we talk about your time as a supply teacher in the UK, you mentioned parents there. Is there anything in particular that you wished parents would understand about teachers? When they’re dropping off their kid in the morning, when they’re picking them up after school, when they’re coming to speak with you at parent teacher conferences, just anything out there that you kind of wished parents would understand a little bit better about teaching and what you’re doing with their children. [00:18:48] Sally: It’s hard because I understand where parents come from, you know, it’s their child, it’s their pride and joy. So they want absolutely the best for them. And I guess I would love for parents to know that I want that as well, that I am looking out for their child. I want the absolute best for them as well. And anything I’m doing, I’m trying to support that child. Anything that they’re struggling with, I’m doing my absolute best to support them through it. Yes, I might have 30 children in the class, but I care about every single one of them as much as the other. [00:19:20] Joseph: Just before we get to the transition, how would you describe this period of your teaching experience? So you spent about six years working full time as a teacher at Newlands Primary School. How did you find it? To what extent did you enjoy it or not? enjoy it. How would you describe your overall experience up until this point? [00:19:37] Sally: I loved it. I had a great time teaching at Newlands. I feel like I went through a couple of different stages while I was there. My first couple of years as a beginner teacher were full of learning and trial and error and spending all these years at university and finally being able to be the teacher. So it’s so exciting to have your own classroom and your own children. And then we went through the COVID years, and as with everyone in the world, the impact was absolutely huge. And the, the fallout from COVID, we were seeing such different children, you know, really different cohort with, you know, higher emotional needs, higher behavioral needs, struggling with anxiety and having to share the attention of teachers. missing out on some of those crucial years where early interventions can happen. So that felt like a very different type of teaching and period of schooling as well. And then after the fallout of COVID, it was just so different. So it feels like there were really great bits and there were harder bits, but overall, I did enjoy my teaching journey in New Zealand. [00:20:50] Joseph: So it sounds like things were going. Fine for you there. I know there were a lot of challenges with COVID and what that brought, but overall you enjoyed the nature of teaching. What triggered you to move to the UK all the way from New Zealand? [00:21:05] Sally: Moving to the UK or anywhere in the world is almost a rite of passage in New Zealand. We call it our OEL overseas experience. And because New Zealand is just so far away from everything, it’s something that so many people do. Moving to London [00:21:18] Sally: All my friends have done it, both my parents have done it. So you get your two, three year visa, you pack your bags and you move to London. It’s just something that everyone does. You, you know, live the London life and you travel That’s what we’re here for. You know, New Zealand, it’s, if I got on a plane now, it would take me 30 plus hours to get home. So, you know, our closest other country is maybe three hours to Melbourne. So being able to pop to Spain for the weekend is absolutely incredible. So, you know, the travel, learning about different cultures and history is really amazing while being over here. Starting a Teaching Career in the UK [00:21:57] Joseph: And how did things transpire for you professionally once you got to the UK? [00:22:01] Sally: So, arrived in the UK, and after a couple of months of travel, I settled in London, and there’s always teaching work. You know, we are always having teaching shortages. So, I quite quickly became a supply teacher from September last year, so the start of the academic year, and quite quickly I was getting work. I think with the first couple of weeks of school, I was working three days a week, but by week three of the academic year, I was getting five days a week and I would get a call in the morning. This is the school. This is the age group. Can you go? And you would get on the train and head anywhere. [00:22:38] Joseph: Wow. Okay. Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher [00:22:40] Joseph: And so also known as substitute teachers in some countries, what are the main differences? Would you say between being a supply teacher compared to being a full-time teacher with a dedicated classroom of kids? [00:22:52] Sally: They are huge. The difference is absolutely huge. Being a supply teacher, you get the worst out of the children. You don’t have that relationship with them. So you don’t know. what works for them, what doesn’t work for them, how far you can and can’t push. They don’t trust you. You’re a stranger that’s turned up. So you’ve got to be really on. Your behavior management has to be top tier. You’re working through a plan that possibly a teacher has left you. Sometimes there’s no plan. So. You’re on all day long. You’re making decisions all day long. [00:23:27] Joseph: Wow. That sounds so stressful. So you’re telling me sometimes you’ll just show up in the classroom and you just go for those, whatever, six, seven hours and just try to keep the place from falling apart. Okay. Wow. [00:23:39] Sally: And there would have been days that I would turn up two minutes before class started and you’re thrown into a year six classroom and they’re going here, you need to teach this. And I’ve taught five year olds for a really long time. So all of a sudden I’ve gotta relearn how to do long division before I teach it to the students . So you’re often found in those kind of situations as well, having to relearn something before you teach it. Diverse Teaching Experiences [00:24:01] Joseph: You mentioned the type of school that you worked at in New Zealand, which was. I guess a smaller, more tighter knit community where you’re seeing the same people and kids every day. What were the types of schools you were working at while you were a supply teacher? Like could you give a sampling of the range of schools in the UK or London that you were assigned to? [00:24:20] Sally: I probably taught at about 30 different schools during my time as a supply teacher. I taught at schools right down by Heathrow airport where I walked through a paddock to get to the school. I taught in schools in the middle of Soho where walking past. You wouldn’t even know that it was a school because it’s in amongst all the other businesses. I taught reception, you know, three and four, five year olds. And I taught up to year eight in schools that had, you know, the high school students attached to the schools as well. So I taught in a huge range of schools, really different demographics and backgrounds. Some schools were You had nicer, lighter, easier days and some days were hard and there were times that I would go, okay, for my own well-being, I will not go back to that school again. [00:25:12] Joseph: Wow. [00:25:13] Sally: Yeah. I think if I teach is really hard, it’s very humbling. You know, I thought I was a great teacher with great behavior management, but. You’re really challenged by being a supply teacher. [00:25:26] Joseph: You mentioned that in New Zealand, you really loved the teaching. You mentioned here, you’re facing quite a different circumstance where you’re dealing with kids you don’t know necessarily, as you mentioned, you’re getting the worst out of children. How would you describe your experience as a teacher at this stage in your career? [00:25:43] Sally: First of all, it was probably the best thing I could have ever done for my Professional development, being at so many different schools, teaching so many different types of children in so many different subjects that I’d never taught before, was fantastic for my own development in my career, but it was hard, you know, something that’s so core to my teaching philosophies is that building of relationships. And so being in a different school every single day, I wasn’t able. To build those relationships and build that trust with students and work to get the best out of them. So I found that really hard. [00:26:17] Joseph: One of the things that we sometimes talk about on this show is the impact that your job can have on you, both in terms of your physical and emotional well being. Did you find that your experience at work was affecting you outside of work in any way? [00:26:33] Sally: I began to not enjoy my Monday to Friday, I wasn’t enjoying my teaching. I felt like I was turning into a teacher that I didn’t recognize. And, you know, I wasn’t building those relationships. I wasn’t doing the things that I loved when I was teaching back home. And so the weekends became too short. Sunday nights. You know, I started to feel a bit of anxiety. Oh, I’ve got to go to school on Monday. What kind of day am, am I in for? I struggled with the behaviour management. I found it to be quite arbitrary and quite punitive and I struggled with that at my core that I, You know, I saw lots of teachers yelling at students and that didn’t sit right with me. And so I struggled with that as well. And that affected my love and my want to be in the classroom. [00:27:31] Joseph: Yeah, it’s very interesting, Sally, because sometimes I’ll hear from people in their professional lives that they’re doing work that they no longer buy into. They’re being asked to do things or carry out or execute certain actions or plans that they either don’t believe in, or they don’t agree with. And I know that that’s a part of, I guess, every job to some extent, you got to do a little bit of that. But at what point did you feel like this was getting to a place where it wasn’t just something you didn’t like, but actually something that you felt you wanted to walk away from? [00:28:05] Sally: The start of the new year? When I got to January 2024 and, you know, I’d moved over here, I’d done a couple of months of travel. I’d found a flat and life was still exciting. Whereas I got to January and it was like, oh, this is going to be me for the entire duration of while I’m living in London. I’m not enjoying it. How am I going to see out the next two years of being here when I’m not enjoying my Monday to Friday? I kept teaching for another two months, but I think that was when it really set in that I don’t know if I can keep doing this because I’m just not enjoying my life over here. Transitioning Out of Teaching [00:28:45] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your transition out of teaching then. What did you do when you realized that? What steps did you then realize you needed to take? [00:28:53] Sally: I made contact with a recruitment agency and, you know, I started to think, oh, what other things could I do? Maybe I need to update my CV and look into a different world. And so I went to this recruitment agency Australasian and just began to have a bit of a conversation with some of the coordinators there about other things could be out there for me, what skills could be transferable. And at that point, I had to put together a CV and change it from a teaching CV to a professional CV where no one cares how I teach my literacy program and, you know, starting to think, can I actually do anything else? And that’s when the confidence definitely took a dip that I only know how to do one thing. Can I actually do anything else? So that came up when I was starting to have to change over my CV. And then I was put forward for a temp role at Imperial and again, the confidence took a dip when I was practicing for my interview. Do I know how to do anything else that isn’t teaching? Why am I leaving teaching when I’ve, I’ve got work? I know what I’m doing and I can do it. And so it was quite a scary time. [00:30:09] Joseph: That confidence piece, Sally, I hear this a lot when people are making transitions because you’re going from what you Not only know, but you know, you can do reasonably well and to walk away from that and to kind of throw yourself into totally different industry. Were there any particular things you did to bolster your confidence? [00:30:29] Sally: It was changing the language that I used, you know, instead of saying that I had parent teacher interviews and I worked with parents and child psychologists and things like that. It was that I was working with stakeholders and I guess just learning what. Did transfer over and that some of those things that I am confident with within teaching happen in a professional world as well and I guess learning for myself that because I can do it here I can also replicate it in another place and be confident about that. [00:31:06] Joseph: As you began to go through this process of reworking your cv and the motions of explaining. It sounds like you actually did enjoy your time at one point teaching back in New Zealand and being a teacher was something you’d wanted to do even as a child. Putting aside the practicalities of making this pivot, was there anything else that was particularly hard about the idea of moving away from school? [00:31:36] Sally: I think transitioning from teaching brought on a process of grief that I guess I still face every now and then here, you know, teaching was something that I wanted to do, that my heart was set on, that I studied to do and I loved it. And it was almost a grieving process of falling out of love with teaching. You know, it was something that I always wanted to do and I wasn’t feeling fulfilled and passionate by it anymore. And that was quite hard to have to face and. Sometimes, even though I’m loving working where I am now, I still think back to teaching and I still miss certain parts of it and still grieve certain parts of it. So that’s been an ongoing process that I guess I wasn’t expecting. [00:32:27] Joseph: I guess grief is something that’s an important part of walking away from anything. We can find ways to power through it and carry on with our day-to-day lives, but that grief doesn’t just go away. And it sounds like you came out of a really tough period of teaching and at the same time you once did and maybe even still do have a part of you that really loved it. Especially when you think back to those earlier years. So feeling grief is understandable because it’s almost like you’re letting go of something that was once important to you and a part of not only your life, but who you were and still are today. And I think our past is something that. remains on all of our minds, even as we grow into another chapter in our careers and lives. Speaking of which, how did you eventually land your full time role there at Imperial? Landing a New Role at Imperial [00:33:25] Sally: So I was hired as a six week temp to be a program coordinator while someone else was Of doing a secondment and so I started working at Imperial and it was a big role to learn. It was using things like Excel, which I wasn’t having to use teaching. It was all of those kind of things. I was having to learn office life, the way that offices run, the way that you email, things like that were all very new to me. And so I worked there for about six weeks before. The job was possible to go permanent. And so at that point I had to reapply and re interview, and I felt better and worse about going for it then because I, you know, I’d built the confidence. I’d done this job for six weeks. Surely I can do it permanently. I’ve learned all these skills, but it was also harder in the sense that now I, if I didn’t get the job, I knew what I was missing out on. And I. Knew what I had to go back to. I had to go back to that teaching life and my wellbeing of what it was while I was teaching. So I wanted the permanent job. I was loving working at Imperial and I wanted to stay there. Lessons Learned and Advice [00:34:41] Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here, Sally, or just a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. And I know that you were. Mentioning before some aspects around being concerned about your confidence, making the transition and knowing what you know now, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself and the idea of being able to make a transition? [00:35:06] Sally: I’ve definitely learned that. First of all, I can do it and that I need to be open to those things. I think as teachers, we put ourself in a little bubble that teaching is all we can do. But when I reflect on my teaching time now, and I think about all the skills that I learned as a teacher and how I use them every single day at my time at Imperial, you know, I learned that actually. There were so many amazing things that I was able to do and that I’m only able to do in my job now because of my teaching background and actually those are the best things that I’ve been able to bring across that although I might have lacked the confidence initially by just opening my mind and saying, let’s dive in, let’s give it a try, life is so much better. I’m enjoying my life in London now, I look forward to going to work, so you don’t know unless you try and I’m so glad that I did. [00:36:01] Joseph: If you could share some advice with your younger self about your transition from New Zealand to the UK, or going from teaching to program management, what advice might you share with younger Sally? [00:36:15] Sally: Take on any opportunity that comes your way. Say yes, because you never know what could come of it. There’s So many amazing things out there that you could be doing and you’ve got to jump in with two feet. [00:36:27] Joseph: And the last question for you here. If somebody else out there is thinking about making a career transition or even making a major career change and they’re on the cusp of it, but kind of struggling to make that next move. Is there something that you wished they would know about the process of transitions that you now know? [00:36:45] Sally: Your skills that you have, you know, stepping back and looking at them and how actually they transfer into the world and to know that those skills are transferable, that you might feel like you’re pinholed into one position, but actually they can be just as useful in another role and you won’t know unless you try and if it doesn’t work, that’s fine. You gave it a go and you can go back to what you were doing. But you know, it could absolutely change your life. So why not give it a try? [00:37:14] Joseph: Thank you so much. Sally, for taking us through your time as a teacher and explaining your transition, not only geographically, but also professionally. I said this before, I’ll say it again. I think what teachers do out there is immeasurably invaluable to our children and the world. So as a parent myself, really appreciate the work that you have done for kids and also all the teachers out there, what they do for our children. So best of luck with your program management role there at Imperial. I’m sure we’ll cross paths again in the near future, and I hope you have a good year ahead. Thanks for coming onto the show. [00:37:51] Sally: Lovely. Thank you so much for having me. 🎶 Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Trinity Alps Podington Bear – Puppy Music_for_video – Sedative Podington Bear – Loam Podington Bear – Floating Podington Bear – Curious Process Podington Bear – Blue Folk_Acoustic – May

Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of curiosity. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them all out. Similarly, during the early stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. However, over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down as a result of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. Keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career. In episode 104 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Laura McIntyre, a professional opera singer turned business change consultant at Deloitte, describes her journey of going from the world of performing arts to the corporate world of management consulting. She explains why she decided to walk away from singing, how she managed her transition while making ends meet, and what steps she took to eventually land her job at one of the world’s leading professional services firms. After our chat, I’ll also share some thoughts on the importance of remaining curious in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, your career puts immense amounts of pressure on you in ways you don’t fully register until you hit an emotional or physical limit. When you cross that threshold, you owe it to yourself to recalibrate and reassess where to take your career. Transitions are inevitably messy, often resulting in rejection and setbacks that may lead you to question your original decision to leave your former career behind. Understand that transitions take time, and the ups and downs are par for the course. With enough dedication, exploration, and proactive connection-building, you can increase your chances of eventually identifying and landing a role that better aligns with your interests, skills, and lifestyle. 📚 Resources Mentioned Read this CareerShifters article featuring an interview with Laura where she describes her career journey in more detail. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I referred to Ethan Mollick’s book Co-Intelligence which radically reshaped my views on AI’s role in our work. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about dedicating a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could explore an emerging technology affecting your industry. Or learn more about a skill that someone you admire possesses. Or listen to a podcast episode about a topic that you’re curious about. What step will you take to channel your curiosity in your career? 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:18 Chat with Laura 00:44:27 Mental Fuel 00:50:54 Listener Challenge 00:51:49 Wrap Up 👤 About Laura McIntyre Laura McIntyre is a business transformation consultant at Deloitte focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Laura began her career as a professional opera singer performing in the UK, France, and other European countries. In her spare time, Laura enjoys horseback riding🏇🏼 and working out at the gym💪🏼. You can follow Laura on Instagram and LinkedIn, and check out other insights she’s collecting around career transitions for her Path Changer initiative on Instagram and YouTube. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Stubble & Co for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Stubble & Co for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Crafted for the modern urban professional, Stubble & Co combines premium British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable, and high-quality bags made from recycled materials, perfect for work and travels. Check out their full range of products at careerrelaunch.net/stubble. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Podington Bear – Stars Are Out Lama House – Sola Ventus Hushed – Sibyl Rand Aldo – Paramount Crowning Podington Bear – Trinity Alps Infraction – Nature 📄 Episode Transcript Laura: [00:00:00] Most inventions or innovation has happened because of someone being curious. We never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well. Joseph: [00:00:16] Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast focused on helping you reinvent your career. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence and courage to overcome the challenges of making changes to your career so you can do more meaningful work and enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame, and the lessons they learned along the way to help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share her story of going from an opera singer to a management consultant focused on business transformation. We’ll discuss the importance of keeping an open mind and the hidden upside of uncertain transitions afterwards. During today’s Mental Fuel®, I’ll talk about the role curiosity plays in uncovering career opportunities. Joseph: [00:01:10] Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of it. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them out. Similarly, during the earlier stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. But over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down because of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. But keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career, and we’re going to talk more about this right now. Joseph: [00:01:52] Today, I’m speaking with Laura McIntyre, a business transformation consultant focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Lora began her career as a professional opera singer, performing in the UK, France and other European countries. After realizing her health and emotional well-being were taking a hit from the relentless pressures of performing, Lora decided to take a break from singing and explore some other career paths. She is now a consultant at Deloitte, one of the world’s leading professional services firms, where she focuses on human capital consulting, digital transformation and change management. Now, I first met Lora when she reached out to me on Instagram to discuss the topic of personal branding. We later met up in London to collaborate on one of her projects focused on career change, and we’ve stayed in touch since. Joseph: [00:02:42] Coincidentally, my neighbor who lives right next door to us is actually a professional singer herself. But this conversation with Lora was really my first time getting a deeper, behind the scenes glimpse into what goes into professional opera singing. I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing how Laura managed to pull off her radical career change, going from performing in front of audiences to now working in the corporate world. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at Career Relaunch Net 104. Laura spoke with me from Kent, not too far from where I’m based myself here in the UK. Joseph: [00:03:19] Okay, Laura, welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. Great to see you again and welcome to the show. Laura: [00:03:25] Thank you so much. I’m really glad to be here and happy to see you again. Joseph: [00:03:29] I want to talk with you today, Laura, about your transition from opera singing to consulting, why you left that behind, and also your career transition. But I would love to just start and get a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now. Can you just tell me a little bit about what you’ve been devoting your energy to in your personal and professional life lately? Laura: [00:03:51] In my professional life, I’ve been devoting my time and my energy to my career as a management consultant. So just working on different projects. Really enjoying it, experiencing, working with different teams. I work predominantly across the public sector. Really finding that interesting. Lots of very challenging situations that I have an opportunity to dive into and support my clients in. It’s a really diverse kind of portfolio of the work that I do. And yeah, I’m just finding it really fun at the moment and in my free time. I’ve recently started my gym journey, so I’m becoming an avid gym goer, so I’m devoting a lot of energy and time into that. And also I’m trying to keep up with my horse-riding skills as well. Joseph: [00:04:39] Oh wow. Okay. What kind of horse-riding do you do exactly? Laura: [00:04:43] I suppose it’s called just English riding. Joseph: [00:04:47] Are you jumping over the hurdles? I don’t know the exact terminology. Laura: [00:04:51] A little bit. I’m not quite there yet, but I’m taking some lessons and doing some kind of hacking out into the English countryside as well. Joseph: [00:05:00] And on your LinkedIn profile, Laura, now, I think your jobs title says that you are a business change consultant at Deloitte, and I know that this term consultant and management consultant, it floats around out there. And it’s kind of this, to the outsider, a bit of a black box. Can you just share a snapshot of projects and clients you currently work with? Laura: [00:05:23] I mean, this is actually a really difficult question because really no one knows what a consultant does, right? I believe even the consultants themselves sometimes don’t know what we do. But to keep it neat and short, I predominantly go in to help clients with any challenges related to people as their businesses or their organizations are going through some sort of transformation. So, for example, whether that would be a technology transformation, whether that would be a people-related, culture-related transformation, whether that would be a strategic transformation, whatever it is at the heart of every transformation, there are people. And my focus predominantly within management consultancy is kind of the human capital side of things. It’s kind of a term, I suppose. Used to talk about people as a resource and kind of having that people-centered, human-centered approach to transformation. And within that, one of my key interest areas is business change. Specifically in our organization, we tend to think about professionals in a kind of a T-shaped form, expertise on kind of a high level, broad library of various skills and knowledge. But then we are encouraged to have kind of that t letter going downwards into kind of one key area that you’re perhaps really passionate about, or maybe where you’re kind of greatest talent lies in. So that’s why on my LinkedIn profile I call myself a business change kind of specialist within Deloitte. Joseph: [00:06:59] You haven’t always been a human capital consultant focused on business change and business transformation. At Deloitte, you were a professional opera singer. You performed in the UK, France and other European countries, I think for about seven years, if I have that correct. Before we get to that though, Laura, I’d love to just go back in time a little bit further. And can you just tell me a little bit about you personally? Where did you grow up and what can you remember being interested in as a kid? Laura: [00:07:32] When I was growing up, music was always very close to our family. My mum, was a choir conductor for a while and then she transitioned into working in school as a music teacher. So I ended up going to a lot of her rehearsals, and music was always quite close to my heart. My dad was also a musician, kind of more towards the jazz side of things. So he was also a composer and played in a band. So I suppose music was always running in the family. And then from a very early age, I started playing some instruments and I ended up going to sort of like an after-school club, but like an after-school where you are taught various music subjects like music, history, solfeggio, as well as playing an instrument of your choice. And at the time, the instrument of choice was a piano, predominantly because there was a piano in the house already. So that became kind of the instrument of choice. So I did that for many, many years, pretty much all the way up to when I graduated from school. Joseph: [00:08:40] You played piano? Laura: [00:08:42] Yeah, I played piano for a while, and I sang in various kind of bits and bobs choirs and  ensembles in school as well. So to be honest, a lot of my childhood and my kind of young years were spent doing music. Joseph: [00:08:59] And can you remind me, Laura, where you grew up? Laura: [00:09:02] I grew up in Lithuania. I’m a girl from the coast, so I grew up in a city called Klaipėda, and that’s a port. So we were very close to the beach and wonderful forests. It’s a very beautiful part of the country. Joseph: [00:09:19] I’m sorry I’m not that familiar with Lithuania just because I’ve never been there myself. Is music something that’s quite well embraced in the education system in Lithuania? Is it encouraged? Is it part of the typical academic curriculum there? Laura: [00:09:36] At least back in my days, it was part of the general curriculum. You would have a music lesson where you would be encouraged to learn about different sorts of music composers, a little bit of music history, kind of that whole rounded individual type of thing. So not necessarily going too deep, but it has always been encouraged. And every school has or at least used to have various opportunities for children and young adults to get involved in various music activities, bands, orchestras, choirs kind of pursue that passion. The one thing that’s really good, or at least used to be, I keep saying, used to be because I feel like I’m so far removed from it right now. So I kind of really speak into the situation with 100% certainty. But we used to have music schools that were sort of after club, but they offered quite serious music activities for children and for young adults to pursue various instruments and some of the other things that are already mentioned that I was able to learn as well. And it was quite a serious form of education, very well recognized across the country. We used to have exams, I think twice a year, so it’s quite a serious approach to it. The wonderful thing about that, is that it’s government funded and parents don’t have to spend loads and loads of money, which enabled a lot of children from less privileged families to attend as well, because the fee was very, almost like symbolic fee. The majority of the costs were covered by the government. So there’s really an encouragement from the government to pursue these types of careers. Same with the universities. There are a lot of free spots or government-funded spots for talented individuals to apply for. Joseph: [00:11:21] So it sounds like this was a pretty big part of your upbringing. At what point did you decide that, hey, I might want to do this professionally? Like, do you remember when that occurred to you that this could actually become a career for you? Laura: [00:11:35] I kind of fell into it. I did a couple of competitions in my last two years in school. There were sort of singing competitions where I competed. I won a couple of awards, and a lot of the feedback was that my voice would be really suited for classical music and that I should really give it a go, so the feedback was really positive. I kind of enjoyed doing it. I didn’t really have another thing that I was really settled on pursuing as like a very serious career. So when I was graduating from school, I thought, well, why not? Let’s give it a go. So I applied to a university audition type of thing. I did that and I got the spot and I thought, well, great, let’s give it a go. And that’s where it all started. Joseph: [00:12:26] And for somebody maybe who isn’t familiar with the different types of opera singing paths, was there a particular range and type of performance that you eventually ended up focusing on? Laura: [00:12:37] So I think in the early years they avoided trying to put you in a box because when you’re still really young, your voice continues to form up until you’re probably about 25, I think. So it continually grows together with you and it matures. But throughout your journey, you start falling into your own kind of area of you could call it vocal expertise, but yes, it’s something to do with the range, the colour of your voice, kind of where the quality of your sound really lies. And at the time I was considered to be a mezzo-soprano, which is kind of the mid-range vocal kind of performance. Joseph: [00:13:18] And what was your life like as a professional opera singer? Can you give a glimpse into the types of shows or performances that you recall being a part of? Laura: [00:13:28] I think my early career was very much mixed with studying, so I was still kind of a full-time uni student doing all the music lessons and singing classes and exams, and at the same time I applied or auditioned for a couple of roles, and then the National Opera House in Lithuania, and I got the roles. So I was often kind of working and studying at the same time. So I had, I think maybe up to 5 or 6 shows a year. It wasn’t much, but it was just the right amount as kind of a starting singer and to be honest, all the way throughout my career, studying and working kind of always went hand in hand because I think in singing you can rarely walk away from kind of singing lessons. You continually require that improvement. It’s a little bit similar, I suppose, to sports. You always stay connected to your coach. You never really stop learning, you never really stop improving. It always has been connected. So after I did my undergrad studies in Lithuania, I then applied for a kind of. It’s called like a post-grad program in London. And that’s how I arrived here in the UK. So I did a couple of years of that in the Royal Academy of Music here in London. Some of the places that I used to perform the most was Opera Holland Park. They did a lot of kind of seasonal shows, so that was one of my very frequent places that I went to. I still had contracts back home in Lithuania, so I traveled between here and there. Then I spent a year in the National Opera Studio, which created lots of opportunities for me to perform with them on different stages in Leeds, and in London as well. And then I got a contract with Scottish Opera, and I spent about nine months living and working in Glasgow, while at the same time performing in France, as I had a small contract in France as well. So we traveled lots of cities and with one of the productions it was Vichy, Versailles, and Lyon. Joseph: [00:15:39] How did things progress for you compared to maybe how you envisioned them transpiring for you? Like, if you think about the entry into the world of opera singing compared to the actual experience, was it what you expected? Was it different from what you expected? How would you describe your overall experience as an opera singer? Laura: [00:15:59] Even though the world is so broad and there seems to be space for everyone, it’s quite a competitive space. It can be competitive in a good way, and someone perhaps critiques what you do. And that’s what the whole industry is built on, is on critiquing, reading reviews and someone critiquing your performance. Someone critiquing, not necessarily with bad intentions, but maybe they want to help you out. Maybe they want you to improve. And so I think very early on, I started noticing that it’s really difficult to separate what you do from what you are. And therefore, whenever someone critiques what you do, it really affects how you feel about who you are. And that, I guess, was the more tough side of that particular career. It has many positives, but it also has a few negatives, which I think I ignored for as long as I could. And then I suppose I had to come to a realization that perhaps I’m not necessarily the right type of person to enjoy this type of career. Joseph: [00:17:05] Was there a particular moment when it dawned on you that you just had to make a change and that this was not sustainable for you? Laura: [00:17:14] So one of the things that singers will often experience is something that comes with the job is, you know, sometimes you fall sick. Things happen to your voice. It becomes way more sensitive because you’re using it as an instrument. So it’s naturally way more sensitive. And I’ve noticed that when I stopped singing, I stopped being sick, which is miraculous. But I used to get colds all the time, and I kind of struggled with acid reflux as well. And perhaps I still get some of it now, but it’s almost like I don’t notice it anymore. Or maybe I get less of it as well because I’m not using my voice in that capacity. It’s not as demanding on my voice kind of day-to-day talking. So my last year was quite a difficult one. I fell into kind of this vicious cycle of you’re sick and then therefore you’re anxious because when you’re sick, you cannot perform. If you don’t perform, you lose money because you’re not paid. If you’re not paid for a long time, you can’t cover your bills. And they can also cancel your contracts because if you’ve been sick for a long time, the show must go on. It seems unfair, but it’s also really fair. It’s a business. They can’t just wait for you forever. So you kind of get into that cycle of you’re sick and therefore you’re anxious, but then also you’re sick because you’re anxious. Laura: [00:18:35] So I found myself in this continuous loop. And I think there came a time when my voice was not doing very well. I was determined to push through, and that was one of the biggest mistakes I made because I continued pushing through and I think the anxiety really got out of hand. At one point I used to wake up, remember, in the middle of the night like 3 a.m., just to check if I still have a voice, because any moment it could be gone. And I felt really, really anxious, very, very stressed. Which obviously didn’t help my sickness either. So it only created more acid reflux, kind of more hardship and performance. And what started happening was that sometimes I started losing my voice during a performance then added the trauma of hundreds of people looking at you while you’re losing your voice. So all of these things started piling up, and I think I was really struggling to deal with it, like on a mental level. And I think at that point I decided I need to just take a break. So it wasn’t like I decided I need to change careers. I think at that point I understood that I have to step away from it, and it was a huge hit for pride because suddenly you feel like you failed. Laura: [00:19:48] You failed at your own job, you failed as a performer, you failed as a singer. And you know the constant thoughts of what are other people going to say? And often people in the industry would say, well, you know, you failed because you didn’t have a good technique or, you know, you failed because of x, y, z. So everyone has an opinion to offer. And at that point in time, I decided I’m going to take a break. I’m going to take it slow, continue taking the lessons and just use this time to recover. What happened during that period was I very quickly realized that the recovery needed to happen, not in my voice. So there was nothing wrong with my voice. There was nothing wrong with my body. There was no physical issue. The issue was a mental issue. I think over that really stressful year, I built a lot of trauma in my head, which started really inhibiting kind of my singing, and I think I faced a choice at that point. How much time and how much of my life I’m willing to invest into this healing journey, because it’s not that difficult to heal from physical trauma. It’s much more difficult. It’s not necessarily much more difficult, but it’s less predictable. Healing from kind of mental trauma or like a psychological trauma. Joseph: [00:21:18] Yeah, I think that’s what makes these sorts of transitions so unsettling because there’s not a clear start and end. What you just mentioned about your physical side. You kind of know when you’ve physically gotten better from an injury or something. But yeah, the psychological and emotional side of of making a transition or having come out of a really difficult situation is a lot less tangible. And so it’s it’s just kind of harder to wrestle with. And then that creates more anxiety. Laura: [00:21:46] Exactly. It’s really difficult. I think anxiety is one of the most difficult things to recover from because you’re so invested in your own healing journey. You know, the stakes are high. You must recover from this, and that only creates more anxiety. So it’s almost like you have to completely walk away from it in order to completely heal. Because if you keep on pushing yourself with the pressure of I must heal from this, it just doesn’t work that way. Or at least it didn’t work that way for me. So what I did, was I stepped away from it all and then found myself in a funny predicament of having cancelled all my contracts. I had no income. Joseph: [00:22:24] Well, that’d be really interesting to talk about that now, Laura, this transition of yours. So it sounds like you need to take a step back. You’re not sure if it’s going to be a permanent step away, or just kind of a momentary pause. London is not. Or the UK in general is not a cheap place to live, so obviously you had to make ends meet. What did you do? Like what kind of jobs did you apply to? And I’d also be curious what sort of roles you took on. Maybe like temporary jobs you had to take on to make ends meet. Laura: [00:22:52] So during that time, I obviously thought, you know, I have to pay my bills, I need to find a job. So I opened all the, you know, what they call the websites with all the job opportunities. And I started scrolling. It was a really discouraging time as well, because all I had in my education, kind of in my little portfolio was music studies. I barely had any other work experience. I’ve only done music, which at the time seemed really not applicable to anything else. So what I started is my application journey applying to loads and loads of different jobs. I really was aiming low and when I say low, I mean where the requirements were very basic. So not necessarily that they’re bad jobs, but where the requirements are completely basic, like washing the dishes. Joseph: [00:23:46] Oh wow. Laura: [00:23:47] The only requirement you need to have is usually the ability to work in the UK. And I don’t even think they require anything else. They usually just say as long as you can stand and you’re physically fit to stand there all day and wash the dishes, we’re good. So I applied for jobs like that, catering, waitressing, jobs. So where the kind of the level of requirements for the entry-level was pretty basic because I really saw myself as someone who doesn’t have anything else to offer regardless. And I just thought, well, that’s going to be easy to get one. I just thought anyone could get this. I think I applied to close to maybe 80 jobs over the course of about four months. I was rejected by all of them. Joseph: [00:24:31] Oh, wow. Laura: [00:24:32] Either didn’t hear back or was rejected. And I think progressively my applications were just going down. Down to like just any kind of job will do. If you pay me, I’ll work. Joseph: [00:24:44] So for 3 or 4 months here, you’re applying to whatever 80 jobs and you’re getting either no response or negative response, and oh wow. Okay. And like what was running through your head at that time? Were you thinking go back to opera? Or was that not . . . Laura: [00:24:59] Well, that wasn’t an option either, because I wasn’t in a place to actually do anything with my voice either. I was really surprised and like, puzzled because I thought, I don’t know, why doesn’t anyone want me? And I thought, well, surely I can wash the dishes. And I remember I called my mum and she said, how is it going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well. I said I kept on either hearing negative responses or not hearing back at all. So basically nothing happened. My mom said something quite profound, quite unusual to what she would normally say as well. She said, you know, this is really strange. I think it’s because life is about to offer something very different to you, and it’s preventing you from getting anything else, because there is a plan in place and there’s a job for you that’s waiting for you. And it’s not any of these jobs. So it’s basically the life itself that is preventing you from getting it. And I thought, whoa, that’s a really strange thing for my mom to say. She doesn’t normally speak like that, but I think it encouraged me. And what happened then was that maybe a couple of weeks later, I ran into someone who I knew and they sort of asked, as usual, how is this singing going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well. Laura: [00:26:29] I kind of paused everything there. And I’m actually now looking for any kind of job because I need to kind of sustain myself. And the person looked at me and he said, oh, well, I know someone who is looking for people like they have a business and they’re constantly looking for new people to join. And in my head, I thought, oh, business. I really don’t know anything about business. I’m definitely not a suitable candidate. But out of kind of politeness, I said, yes, of course, I’ll connect with them, I’ll reach out to them. And I did, and they told me about their business. They told me they have. They sent me a list of different roles that they have. I looked at all of them and I obviously thought, well, this is I can’t do any of this. I know nothing about business. I know nothing about any of these roles. The one thing I spotted was a graduate position. Joseph: [00:27:22] Is this the customer service position? Laura: [00:27:24] Yes. And I reached out back and I said, well, for a graduate position, what’s the time period for that graduate in terms of I graduated many, many years ago? Am I still, you know, could I still be a candidate? And the guy said, yes. Why not? And I said, okay, I did. And I said, does it matter where I graduated from? And they were like, no, it doesn’t matter. Oh, okay. Maybe it doesn’t matter though. And I applied and the position that I applied for was customer services because again, I thought, I don’t have much experience with any other things, but I do have experience with people. So I thought, that’s what I’m going to hang on to. And I applied and I got the job. Joseph: [00:28:14] And how did that go for you? I think you spent a few years doing that. It sounds like you went from a place where you felt like you didn’t have, I guess, the formalized qualifications to take on that role. But when you actually got into the role, what was your experience there like? Laura: [00:28:28] It was a really good experience, I think. I did not expect to enjoy it as much as I did, and that is one of the reasons why I never got back to singing. I just really enjoyed the whole corporate environment and client services was a very broad role. It offered a lot of variety, and lots of people contact. I enjoyed so much learning about business, what they do, kind of the whole corporate side of things. Really, really loved it. I think I did that for about a year, and then because it was a small organization, kind of almost like a startup, that was going through a lot of restructuring, and they kind of kept on changing their shape. So they kept moving me kind of around different roles. So I got to experience a lot. I was offered a role as an analyst, a data analyst. And I thought, well, that’s interesting, why not? And basically from starting from customer services. Associate moved my way up through data analysts, insight analyst into a consultant. Joseph: [00:29:31] And then that takes us to the consulting chapter of your career, which is what I’m hoping to talk with you about now. You climb all the way up to becoming a strategy consultant, and then eventually you would make it to Deloitte. I was looking into the acceptance rates of applicants at Deloitte, and according to the Cambridge consultant, it’s about 4%. Now, I’m not sure how precise that figure is, but it’s very well known in the corporate world that landing a job at Deloitte or any of the big four professional firms, Deloitte or Ernst and Young or PwC or KPMG, it’s really competitive to get into these places. As someone who didn’t–at least before this latest role that you just described before that–didn’t have a formalized business background, how did you approach landing a job at Deloitte? Laura: [00:30:17] Well, I’m surprised now too! I didn’t know these rates! Laura: [00:30:20] Yeah. It’s competitive. You make me surprised now too! Joseph: [00:30:23] Yeah, you made it. Laura: [00:30:25] Oh my goodness. Feeding my imposter syndrome. Joseph: [00:30:29] I work with a lot of business schools, and I know that consulting is one of the esteemed target industries that a lot of business students try to get into. There’s banking, there’s consulting. Those are two of the most attractive and also the most competitive. And so a lot of people don’t make it. And a lot of people wonder, how do you land a job at one of these big four firms or one of the big three firms? So yeah, I’m just curious how you did it. Laura: [00:30:54] I think a lot of it also has to do with being at the right place at the right time. I think we cannot discredit that. I know that things right now are really, really tough within the industry. So it really depends on the time and the place. What’s the environment like? What’s the industry like? It’s not so much to do with what you bring. Sometimes it’s also being able to ride the tide. But basically what happened in my previous job, and I’m forever grateful to them for the opportunities that they provided me with. I had so many opportunities just to learn on the job, and I think what really helped is keeping that why not attitude. Some of the roles I was quite certain at the time, this is not going to be my forever role. I don’t think this is my thing, but I used that time to kind of take as much as I can from that role, and from the responsibilities that I was given. Some of them I did not thoroughly enjoy, but I think I tried to keep an attitude of what can I learn from this and kind of put in my little library of skills. One thing that did help was during Covid. While I always say while other people were baking bread and kind of everyone found. Laura: [00:32:13] Everyone found their own thing . . . Joseph: [00:32:14] I was not one those people . . . Laura: [00:32:15] Lots of people were. Laura: [00:32:16] And I have nothing against people who bake bread. I’m just really bad baker. That’s the true reason behind it. I decided that I also needed to do something, you know, with my time, even though I was still full-time working because our organization was working kind of in the digital space. So we were not really affected by the whole kind of work from home. What I did was I decided to do a little like a diploma. It’s not a university, it’s not a college. It’s not any of those. It’s just like a certification. But it’s a full-year course with lots of assignments and it’s still quite pretty in-depth. The topic that I chose was actually Human Resources, even though I did not necessarily have a desire to become a human resources specialist. But I kept that passion for people and business because I never had that true background in business. After reading kind of the brochure of that certificate, I really enjoyed what they were outlining. They were kind of really going on that human-centered approach to how to run an organization through people. And I just loved it. And I thought, why not? So that’s the thing that I did within Covid, which I think also helped me land the job at Deloitte because I was able to offer almost a niche expertise in addition to my more general consulting skills. I think the other thing that does help is if you know someone within the organization, it can really help you almost tailor not necessarily lie or pretend, but tailor your kind of focus of your application to what really matters to the organization as well. So I was kind of blessed to have some people on the inside who told me a little bit about the organization. They recommended the organization as a good organization to work for. Joseph: [00:34:08] These are just. Joseph: [00:34:08] People in your professional circle network. Okay. Laura: [00:34:12] Yeah. So a couple of people in my network were in the organization. So that really helped because it really gave me an insight into the application process, understanding what the priorities for the business, and what can I speak into. And it really helped me to also then tailor my CV, tailor my application, and even tailor my interview approach to make sure that when I come in and I speak, they know that I understand their business, I understand their challenges, I understand their clients, I understand what they need, and I’m not coming in cold like I felt like one of their own in a way. Joseph: [00:34:53] So it sounds like you investing the energy and the time into doing your side research, your side certification, and also just really customizing and tailoring your approach. It really sounds like that helped you stand out as a candidate. Laura: [00:35:08] I suppose it sounds a bit of a cliche, you know, don’t go on an interview without having read about the organization, but I think you’d be surprised how many people don’t. It’s a surprising, shocking number as well. And I think that’s really the key. If you can go into that room and talk their language. Talk about the things that matter to them, kind of from the hiring manager all the way into kind of their current year priorities. That shows dedication. You’ve dedicated your time to research these things, that shows interest. You’ve shown interest in that organization. You can show expertise and what you know about clients, and then you can bring your own little niche expertise in something else that you do. And I think all of that together makes you quite attractive. Joseph: [00:35:56] So it sounds like things are going well for you there at Deloitte. And one of the last things I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. When you look back on your career change journey, Is there anything in particular that you wished you had known that you now know about what it takes to make a pivot successfully? Laura: [00:36:22] I’m overall really happy with my transition, so I don’t think there’s anything that I’m regretting. So it’s probably not as strong of an emotion, but I really wish I would have known sooner that I’m capable of so much more than I give credit to myself for. I think it has been a really encouraging journey throughout, and I probably owe it to a lot of people walking alongside me, who continually kept giving me opportunities and opening doors for me because they believed in me when I didn’t believe in myself. So I think, number one, surrounding yourself with those people again sounds really cliché, but it’s so important. And then second thing, just believing in yourself and giving yourself more credit, I think is important. And I think the third thing would be I hear a lot of people saying, oh, I’m really not happy in my current job. I want to change, I want to do something else. And they just sort of sit and wait until kind of the penny drops and they’re going to figure out their next big move. Sometimes your pivot is not made out of one big move. Sometimes it’s made out of lots of little steps and moves, and sometimes you’re going to fall into things and that’s okay. Give it a go. Approach everything with the attitude of why not? Let’s just give it a go. Joseph: [00:37:43] Was that a major adjustment for you, Laura? I know we didn’t really touch on this, but you go from being an opera singer in front of these. What I’m assuming is quite large audiences in this sort of performance space to then being in an office, kind of dressed up in office attire, working with clients, sometimes behind a laptop, kind of in these meeting rooms. Was that a hard adjustment to make, or did you find that you kind of just fell quite naturally into that? Laura: [00:38:08] It wasn’t too difficult, but there were some things to get used to. Like, I think in the opera world you’re way more active. There’s less kind of sitting down and your work is really split into kind of bursts of energy. So you’ll rehearse a scene, you have a little bit of time to hang around while some other people are doing other things. So like your work is more segmented and it’s really stretched across kind of the day. It’s also much later in the day, so you don’t really start as early, but sometimes you do tend to finish really, really late. So that adjustment was something to get used to. So just being able to sit again from like 8 or 9 until five, it just reminded me of school. Joseph: [00:38:54] Yeah. Laura: [00:38:54] And at first, I think I really struggled to just keep my concentration going. I had like back issues as well. When I first started sitting for long periods, I wasn’t used to it, but these are kind of the only major, I suppose, adjustments. It wasn’t dramatic. Joseph: [00:39:11] And having been through this career change, Laura, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself? Laura: [00:39:17] One thing I learned about myself is that curiosity is my superpower. Joseph: [00:39:23] Yeah, it sounds like curiosity has really served you well in your career, from just the example you gave of not being able to answer maybe a client question, and then you going back and diving deeper into that, or you just allowing yourself to say yes to some of these opportunities when you weren’t quite sure how they were going to work out. So it does sound like that’s worked very well for you. Laura: [00:39:44] It really has. And I’m always very encouraged to hear the stories from around the world that most inventions or innovations have happened because of someone being curious and kind of going against the usual and thinking, why not? Well, what if. And I think that’s a really encouraging. And I think we never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well. Joseph: [00:40:12] And one more question before we wrap up with one of your side projects. Do you still sing? Laura: [00:40:18] I still do. Not in the same capacity. I don’t do opera anymore, but I kind of sing in my free time. I sing in a kind of my local church sort of every other Sunday. So I do have some opportunities for my creative outlet. Joseph: [00:40:35] I do want to wrap up speaking of outlets with one of your side projects, can you tell me a little bit more about Path Changer, which is actually how you and I first met and something I know you’ve been working on, wherever you can somehow find the time to work on it. Laura: [00:40:50] It’s been such a busy time. I haven’t had a chance to do much on it in the last couple of months, but it is kind of something that I call my soul project. One of the things that I’m quite passionate about, having gone through this career change journey myself is helping others. Not calling myself a career expert and not a career advisor. I’m not anything in that area. However, I really wanted to create something that would allow people to get a glimpse into various perspectives related to career change. Hopefully with the view that they start seeing that things are possible. Because I think one of the most frustrating things for me to see is when someone really feels boxed in and without options, for the same reasons that I felt boxed in. For that, I don’t have the right certificate. I don’t have the right degree. I don’t have the right background to try something new, or to apply for this position, or to have a different career to the one that I had before. So I tried to create something, almost like an interview form, where I interview various experts with viewpoints or expertise related to something that might be relevant to career change. And yeah, and hoping that people can find that content interesting and then ideally also connect with those experts if they want to take that conversation further. Joseph: [00:42:17] Well, and I’ve seen some of those video clips myself and they’re very useful and very insightful. So I would encourage people to check those out. And speaking of which, if they do want to learn more about you, or if they want to check out some of the content you’ve been creating through your Path Changer initiative, where is the best place people can find you? Laura: [00:42:35] So I think currently the best place to find me would be either on LinkedIn . . . so I’m Laura McIntyre on there. Or Instagram. So if you do have Instagram, @pathchangerofficial is the handle. And that’s where I’ll be sharing all things related to career change. Joseph: [00:42:53] Okay. And we’ll be sure to include links to those profiles on our show notes. So thank you so much, Laura, for taking this time out of your busy schedule to tell us a little bit about your former life as an opera singer, your transition into the world of consulting, and also just the importance of being curious and open and how much that can really serve you in your career. So best of luck with your time there at Deloitte with Pat changer, and I also hope we can cross paths again soon. Laura: [00:43:20] Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been really a pleasure to speak to you again. Joseph: [00:43:29] So I hope you enjoyed hearing Laura’s perspectives on prioritizing your mental health, the power of your professional network, and believing in yourself. Now it’s time to wrap up with today’s mental Fuel, where I’m going to pick up on this topic of how curiosity can play an important role in your career change journey. Joseph: [00:43:50] Before we get to today’s Mental Fuel®, I wanted to thank Stubble & Co for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast crafted for the modern urban professional. Stubble & Co combines premium British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable and high-quality bags made from recycled materials perfect for work and travels. After ordering one of their crossbody slings myself, I also appreciated how they use minimal packaging and give 1% of their annual sales to approved environmental nonprofits. Check out their full range of bags and accessories at CareerRelaunch.net/Stubble. Joseph: [00:44:28] This is the part of the show called Mental Fuel®, where I finished the show with a brief personal story related to one of the topics we covered today, and wrap up with a simple challenge to help you move forward with your own career goals. So for today’s mental fuel, I wanted to pick up on something Laura mentioned about curiosity being her superpower. And when I think about curiosity in the context of career change, it’s really about embracing an open, inquisitive mindset where you’re more focused on learning, understanding, and exploring new ideas, skills, or perspectives, rather than getting too caught up with the outcome of those explorations. Joseph: [00:45:06] And while I wouldn’t say that curiosity is my superpower per se, I’ve definitely seen how allowing myself to be curious about things has opened up professional doors that would have otherwise remained closed or undiscovered. I’ll just share a couple of concrete examples, the first of which opened up a new career opportunity, and the second related to discovering interesting people. Many years ago, after I graduated from college, I was living in Hawaii doing a financial services internship at a company there, and I used to take the same bus to work every morning, hopping on at a very specific time and seeing the same bus driver every single day. I lived in Waikiki, and that bus originated its journey from the bus stop right next door to my apartment. So when I hopped on board. Sometimes I’d be the only one there with the bus driver waiting to depart. Now, I wouldn’t call myself the most gregarious or chattiest person out there, but I would consider myself fairly friendly. So I’d chat with this bus driver every morning on my way to work, mostly to learn as much as I could about life there in Hawaii. Things to see, things to say or not say, and just the way of life there on the island. This guy’s name was Yama. He was originally from Samoa, and I do remember that he was always reading the newspaper at a time when people read newspapers before setting off, so we’d sit there in the bus and chat about things in the news before he drove off. Joseph: [00:46:45] And we were chatting one day, and I was telling him about my confusion around what to do after I finished up that internship, whether I would head back to the US mainland or to stay there in Hawaii. And I wasn’t quite sure what to do next, and he mentioned something that really planted a seed in my mind that would kind of forever change the trajectory of my entire career. He asked me if I ever considered going into radio news journalism. He knew I’d liked talking about the news, said I had a decent radio voice, and just posed the question. To be honest, I hadn’t ever thought of going in that direction professionally. But a couple of weeks later, I found myself doing some informational interviewing with journalists there, one of whom eventually put me in touch with a guy running the Hawaii Bureau of National Public Radio there. And the next thing I know, I’m working there as a fill-in classical music host, volunteering and eventually getting a job there, anchoring a daily news program. And this all started with me just being open to having a conversation with someone who I never would have imagined could help me come up with an idea of where to take my career, and also just being open to learning more about journalism opportunities in general, and just to jump forward a couple of decades and give a more current example now as a podcast host, where the seeds of this work really date back to that first experience being on air there in Hawaii. Joseph: [00:48:18] This entire show has emerged from my ongoing curiosity about how people navigate career changes. Sometimes listeners ask me how I find guests I feature on this show, and while there are people who apply to be guests, the vast majority of guests you hear on this show are just people I’ve informally crossed paths with, either professionally or personally. Just being curious about their stories is typically how I find most guests for this show. Now, because I’m a public speaker and I speak a lot professionally. I do plenty of talking myself, so in one-on-one conversations I tend to do more question asking than speaking myself. I try my best when I meet people in general, to ask them about them and how they ended up where they are today. Mostly because I’m just curious about it, and you’d be surprised once you probe a bit and give people some space to share their more personal stories. They do open up, and you very quickly come to realize a lot of people out there have gone through some sort of a major career or unexpected life change. So clearly I’ve seen curiosity play a role in my own career. Laura talked about how curiosity’s played a role in hers. Joseph: [00:49:48] What about you? When was the last time you just allowed yourself to pursue a new skill simply because it intrigued you? When did you last explore a new potential career idea? By taking a course, talking with someone in that sector, or reading a book or article on the topic? Or when did you make the effort to reconnect with someone you once met in passing, whom you felt could just be a nice person to have in your life? Sometimes just allowing yourself to be open to a new idea, path, or person can plant the seeds to an entirely new chapter in your career and life. This takes me to a quote from Elizabeth Gilbert, author of eat, pray, love. Curiosity is the truth and the Way of Creative Living. Following that scavenger hunt of curiosity can lead you to amazing places. So my challenge to you is to dedicate a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could, for example, explore an emerging technology affecting your industry, or learn more about a skill that someone you admire possesses, or listen to a podcast episode about a topic you’re curious about. Joseph: [00:51:17] I’ve been doing a little bit of learning and exploration myself recently, delving deeper into the world of AI to figure out the role it might play in my own workflow, the careers of my clients, followers and audiences, and also broader society.I’ve actually just finished the book Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick, which I would highly recommend if you want to learn more about how to embrace and work with AI in your career and broader life, think about what step you’ll take to allow curiosity to play a greater role in your career. Joseph: [00:51:49] If you want to share a step you’ve recently taken to explore something new in your career; have a question you want me to address on the show; or just want to share a story of career change with others, I’d love for you to leave me a voicemail with your thoughts at careerrelaunch.net/104, where you can also find a summary of my discussion with Laura and learn more about her. Again, that’s careerrelaunch.net/104. Joseph: [00:52:13] If you’ve enjoyed today’s show, I’d really appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to hit that follow button so you can get the latest episodes of the show delivered right to your device. Thanks so much for being part of the Career Relaunch® community, and a special thanks again to Laura McIntyre for sharing her story with us today from Kent. Joseph: [00:52:34] This episode was mixed by Liam MacKenzie. Today’s music was curated by Jonathan Renaldy Poll and the career relaunch theme song was written and performed by electrocardiogram. I’m Joseph Liu. Have a great final few weeks of the year and I’ll talk to you next time.

Have you ever felt a bit out of place in your current job? Do you ever feel more like an outsider than an insider at your company? Have you ever struggled to fit in at your workplace? In episode 103 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Dorna Lakayan, an architect and designer, describes her international journey to figure out where she belongs, the challenges of penetrating new professional circles, and the emotional dynamics of running your own business I also share some thoughts on fitting into new environments during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights While your instincts can serve you well, over time, logic and reason can overwhelm that instinct as you progress in your career, which can stop you from making brave leaps that align with your true ambitions. Some days, you may wake up and feel like you’re making zero progress, but you still have to find a way to bravely put one foot in front of the other and make consistent efforts to keep moving forward both socially and professionally. You often hear stories of success, but what lies beneath the surface are often lonely, challenging days where things haven’t gone according to plan. It’s part of the journey and helps you get where you ultimately want to go. When people don’t respond in the way you want them to, it may not relate as much to you as it does to their situation or own struggles. If you’re going through a tough time in your career, trust that this shall pass and life will go on. As long as you’re enthusiastic about what you’re doing and excited about your future, opportunities will arise. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged listeners to find an anchor point that’s consistently served you well, kept you grounded, or just helped you feel more in control. Identify an activity, skillset, person, or place you can reconnect with regularly to create that sense of familiarity that serves as a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as you face those professional and personal challenges around you. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:39 Chat with Dorna Lakayan 00:44:07 Mental Fuel 00:51:08 Listener Challenge 00:51:41 Wrap Up 👤 About Dorna Lakayan, Architect Dorna Lakayan is an interior architect and furniture designer with Persian and Norwegian roots. With Studio Lakayan, she transforms houses into dream homes and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her approach focuses on inhabitants being the center piece of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy and approach center on the idea that “A good space creates space: to feel, to think, and to be you. Be sure to check out her Lakayan Loves series where she shares her favorite icons in the world of architecture & design. Follow Dorna on Instagram and LinkedIn. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on X and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Comastudio – Background Meditative Ambient Music Bio Unit – Summer Rain Lama House – Tales of the Deep Podington Bear – Ice Climb Podington Bear – Dog and Pony Show Podington Bear – Night Vision Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Chimera Joystock – Acoustic Inspiration 📄 Interview Transcript Joseph: I am looking forward to talking with you about a lot of your geographical transitions, and the ups and downs you’ve experienced along the way, your recent decision to start your own architectural firm. But I’d love to start by just first getting a snapshot of your life right now. What are you focused on both personally and also professionally at this moment? Dorna: [02:55] For me, they are not really separated from each other. Maybe being a designer, I have always lived, eat, breathed design, sort of an attitude. My life is design and it’s really intersectionally going forward together. But my focus these days mostly is, of course, establishing my life here in the new country, new city, finding new friends, new colleagues, new collaborators. I’m figuring out what’s next. Joseph: You haven’t always lived in Amsterdam. So, let’s start at the beginning and move forward from there. I’d like to actually go all the way back to your childhood when you grew up in Iran, which is where you’re from. What do you remember about your life in Iran as a child? Dorna: [03:45] I think after coming to Europe, my biggest memory of Iran relates to the sun. It was a very sunny part of the world. Especially when you are a child, maybe you are more curious. You see more, you observe more. So I remember a lot of patterns, a lot of colors. We live in a part of the world where the sun is available. So a lot of architecture and a lot of things are built around it. The shadows. The concept of actually shadowed spaces and sunny spaces or light spaces. So there’s a lot of things about the architecture. Of course, I remember, but then, I came from a family where architecture was important or art was important. So maybe that’s why most of my memories are around it as well. Or maybe I was just curious as a child to become an architect, I don’t know. Joseph: Were your parents also involved in some sort of design or architectural industry? Dorna: [04:49] My dad is a civil engineer and my mom is an artist, or used to be. It was never a profession, but she was just into art. So she would paint and make a lot of things. As a child, I was a very preserved child. I wouldn’t show so much of my emotions. To help me to show more as a child, my mom taught me that I can create things and show things with creating stuff. I had ended up sewing, knitting, and all of those little things that a child can do. Painting, and writing cards and notes, and things like that. So that was my daily routine of creating. Joseph: In most cases on this show, we would typically feature somebody who has a certain professional background and then they switch sectors and they maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in your case, you from a very early start, wanted to become an architect. At what point did you realize that and how did you know you wanted to become an architect? Dorna: [05:44] Yeah, the thing is I didn’t have the title, so I didn’t know what I wanted to become is an architect. That was the whole. But I knew that I love to create and I love to do things within spaces. For many years, I had a title for myself. I called myself the psychologist of spaces. Because I really thought, or I still believe that, that you can somebody’s feelings, emotions, habits, a lot of things about how easy your life is by having good space. And then, as a child, I called myself a psychologist of space, of course. But then, my best friend then was an architect. One evening, I saw a book in their home, which is the drawing of, or a picture of, the Frank Lloyd Wright’s waterfall house, the Fountain House. And then, when I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside was so interesting, and how the waterfall had gone under that building and all of these beautiful things. So I went to his father and said, “What should I do? What kind of profession should I have to be able to do this?” He said, “You need to be an architect.” That was the day I realized I needed to be an architect. Joseph: For those people out there like me who have never been to Iran, how would you describe the overall professional scene in the city where you grew up? Dorna: [07:23] When I left Iran, I was quite young. I was 24. So I can’t really say much about the professional scene because I worked only a few years there. But generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are the dominant jobs in the field, are quite masculine. So you don’t see so many females on the — I didn’t. I don’t know, maybe now, it has changed. All I remember was that you needed some sort of support from somebody. But then, that can also come from the fact that I was very young. So I needed mentors and people who would help me. Generally, Iran is a country full of architecture. There is a big history and a very rich history about architecture in that part of the world, so you learn a lot. But it’s not practiced that way, of course, anymore. Joseph: What ultimately led you to decide to leave Iran behind? Dorna: [08:26] I don’t think you make this decision in Iran. You kind of grow with it, which is a kind of sad part of their story because it’s, according to me, one of the best places to be. Due to the whole situation in that part in the Middle East, with all the complications it has, I think as a child, if you have the ability to grow and learn and are curious enough to leave, you are kind of encouraged to do it from a very young age. That was the same for me. I learned English when I was quite young. I started learning English at a very young age. And then, before you know it, when I felt like everything was settled and I’m now an architect and I can take care of myself and everything, it was time to be curious and leave. I cannot really say it was a decision made, but maybe it was, but it was also grown in me. It’s a very complicated thing to say. But generally speaking, comes out of curiosity to learn more and to see more. Because, obviously, I went to study. That’s how I left. The decision was not there if I was going back or not. Joseph: What year was this? Dorna: [09:36] 2010. That’s when I left the first time. Joseph: This is not a political show. But, obviously, at the time, things were probably a bit unstable sanctions in place. Dorna: [09:48] Yes. Joseph: And so, I would imagine. Dorna: [09:49] As a young person, of course, you have a future in front of you and you want to build and create, but you also know that things are not going to get better and the opportunities are not going to rise. I already see a lot of friends who are there. Imagine the inflation rate and all of these things are affecting your career, and your decisions, and all of that. So taking risks is harder. Hope, maybe; having a hopeful future is harder. In that sense, I think. Of course, I don’t regret that decision, but anyway, it’s your hometown. You have friends, and family, and memories, you speak the language. It’s a different thing. Joseph: Just to switch gears here and talk about the next chapter of your career. Where did you go and how did you decide on where to go next? Dorna: [10:43] First destination was Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. That really just happened. Because I actually had been admitted to study architecture in Oxford. That day that I was supposed to get my ticket, I couldn’t. Oxford just said, “Oh, you’re too late.” I was like, “Okay, now what?” I had a friend who knew a few people in Malaysia. He was just like, “Yeah, why not go to Malaysia and see how it is?” I’m like, “Sure, let’s do that.” And then, I went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to the school, talked to a few people, liked it there. I said, “Okay, I want to study more of architecture.” And then, I started actually interior architecture. And then, after that, I worked a little bit. I worked at the school. I worked at an American company in design. And then, while I was there, I decided that I didn’t want to stay there. It didn’t feel like a place for me to want to build my future, like to call home. That’s when I decided to move towards Europe and see what is Europe. Joseph: Now, I know you just mentioned you just got to have a friend, and then you end up moving to Kuala Lumpur. Did you have the means to just pick up and just move to a new country? It seems like a big leap to make. I guess immigration wasn’t an issue for you going into Malaysia. Dorna: [12:09] When I went to Malaysia, first of all, I was not thinking that I was immigrating. Joseph: I see. Dorna: [12:13] In my head, I was going on this street to see what was happening. And then, I ended up staying. I was not even a student at the time. I went there, and I went to school, and I liked the school, and I stayed. The whole thing. Generally speaking, I always have been told in my life that I’m a very brave person. Up until a few years ago, I kept saying, “No, what’s brave about me?” But I have started to realize, maybe I am brave or braver than I think. Joseph: Yeah. Dorna: [12:41] Now, it’s funny for me when I think about it. What was I thinking? Twenty-three-year-old, and then you just go somewhere and you are like, “Oh, this is cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God, look at these buildings.” Because being in Iran, of course, you have all of these historical sites, and old vernacular, and clay architecture, and colors, and everything. I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers, and new modern technologies. Architects from Australia, America, Europe. Everybody was in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was really a new theme of architecture. I was like this little kid who was in a candy store. It’s like, “Oh my God, look at this, and look at that, and look at this.” It was fun. Joseph: Before we talk about your next move, you mentioned that you didn’t quite see your future there. What was it about being there that led you to believe that you didn’t envision yourself being there long-term? Dorna: [13:43] I think it was mostly about the fact that — maybe this is too extreme to say it this way, but I didn’t feel safe as a citizen. Funnily, for me, I know this is not an impression for a lot of people, Iran was safer and more convenient to be at. Of course, this can come from the fact that I was an immigrant. So it’s a different level. You look different. Whatever you do, you look different. And then, of course, we all know being a woman, it’s also another minority, a little bit, in our business, which is architecture, real estate, things like that. I didn’t really see myself building what I envisioned because I think, especially at that time, I was seeing myself like I wanted to be a Frank Lloyd Wright. That’s how I started the whole journey and that was not happening there. I couldn’t see that. I still was lacking some sort of trust in my surroundings or some sort of trust in what I want to build. That was not there for me yet. That can also come from the fact that I was a junior in Malaysia. It’s like you just graduated architecture school. You are super young. Joseph: Yeah, that’s interesting. I do think that sometimes in our careers, and I consider myself quite a logical left-brained individual. But sometimes, you can just kind of feel that nothing is really going to progress where you’re at. You can just kind of feel it. You can kind of tell that there’s not really a future for you in this location, or this organization, or this sector, and you have to do something about it. Otherwise, you’ll just stagnate. Dorna: [15:27] Funnily, now, every day, I’m trying so hard to go back to that because I think the older I got, the more I saw, the more wisdom came, the more doubt in my instinct also came with it. And then, when you are young, your instincts are talking really loud and clear. You trust them and you go for it, and that’s what everybody calls “young and crazy.” But I really now hope I can become young and crazy every day in my life. That would be fantastic. Joseph: Right. So speaking about another potentially young and crazy move, you decided to move to Europe. Dorna: [16:07] Yeah. Joseph: Where did you end up going and why did you choose that destination? Dorna: [16:11] I went from Kuala Lumpur, the city of never-ending summer to Oslo, part of the world that is well known for its lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do my master’s. My destination was Europe. That I knew the way to come to Europe for me in my head was to do my master’s. The main focus was, of course, architecture and design. Joseph: This was general design. Dorna: [16:42] Yeah, general design, exactly. But, of course, within space. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I sent applications to a few universities, among which National Academy of the Arts in Oslo gave me admission. At the time, I had to choose, of course, between these universities when I got, because I got admission from a few. The question was, “Which is my destination?” I didn’t really choose it based on the geography, but based on the school. I did some research and National Academy of Arts where I was admitted to do a Master in Design at the best workshops available in Europe. Me, coming from this background in architecture where I had all the theory in my pocket, could really benefit from being somewhere where I can actually be hands-on and create with my hands, not only with my brain. That opportunity was 100% available in Oslo. I took that chance and I went there, and I can say it was one of the best experiences. Those two years at that school, I did a lot of hands-on work, and I learned a lot about construction. Joseph: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint, this was a really positive move in your life. Dorna: [18:03] One hundred percent. Joseph: How would you describe how this move felt compared to your move going from Iran to Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one of those quite modular skills being able to make an international move? Was it easier? Was it harder? How did it compare? Dorna: [18:22] Iran was different from Malaysia, and Malaysia was different from Norway. Every country has its own ups and downs, and difficulties and challenges. So I can’t really put that on scale. But definitely, it was scarier for me to this time move. One thing that was very apparent and immediately tangible was the difference in the culture. I came from a culture that was very giving, very social, and very warm and open to a culture that was quite preserved, very colder than my hometown and things like that. It was a challenge to figure out what now or how. There are these unwritten rules, I said, or social aspects that you have to learn or social codes that you have to crack. That was a challenge. Joseph: You’ve touched on this. I wouldn’t mind going a little deeper into this because I think it’s a realistic consideration when you’re moving countries. You’ve talked about being a minority, both first of all, as a female in a quite male-heavy industry, but also a minority in the sense of being a minority as an immigrant in Oslo. I was looking up some stats on this, and I was actually surprised, because I’ve been to Oslo before, and I had expected the immigration figures to be lower, but immigrants makeup about 35% of Oslo’s population, give or take. As a comparison in London, which is where I’m based, it’s around the same. It’s around 38%. I would have expected a slightly larger difference. New York City, it’s about 36%. But at the same time, regardless of whether it’s 36 % or half or 10%, you still recognize that you’re an immigrant in a country and you feel that. Dorna: [20:11] Yeah. Joseph: How much did that play into your life there? Were there any issues or challenges you faced either personally or professionally? Dorna: [20:18] I mean, 100%, there are issues and challenges. I mean, as I just said, like there’s this unwritten user manual that you need to know. Nobody gives that user manual to you at the airport. You just come in and you have to kind of crack the code yourself. It depends on how open you are to trying. That also takes a lot of courage. One aspect, of course, is the social aspect of the life in the Nordics, how you’re going to make new friends. Nordic people generally are more preserved in letting people inside their inner circles. They are also more concerned about social interactions. It’s harder to walk in Oslo and say, “Hello. Good morning,” to any stranger than it is in anywhere else in the world. Those little things, especially for me, coming from a culture where you see your neighbor and say, “Hey, have a good day!” It was a different thing. It was really challenging. I might say, at times, depressing, I was not used to this. I was not used to hiding and not saying anything and pretending that I don’t see or things like that, in social context. In a professional context, it even gets more challenging, especially after I graduated. Because at school, everybody spoke English and it was really an international community, and you could meet people. But then, I started looking for jobs. The first ad job I got was, “Maybe you should consider changing your name.” I’m like, “To do what?” Because you come out of your school and you think, “Oh, my skills matter.” But somebody is telling me, “No, your name matters.” Of course, this is on debating. Also, they are aware of the problem, and they are addressing it in different channels and media. Then I realized, “Oh, my God. I am an outsider.” Joseph: Speaking of the professional world there then, what were you doing at the time and what sort of firm were you working for in the architectural sector there after you had graduated from the National Academy? Dorna: [22:36] I studied interior architecture and furniture design in the academy. The plan was to do interior architecture, which is a less male-dominant industry. The thing is, during my studies, I was an artist assistant. I was helping an artist, Inghild Karlsen, to create sculptures and things like that. She was very artistic and, of course, I had the knowledge of construction, which together would be a really good teamwork. When I graduated, I still was working with her. I also found another part-time job. I worked as a material scientist for a small product design company called HOOS. And so, my work was to research what new materials we can create to build product and furniture with, which was a very, very fun job. But, unfortunately, I could not keep any of these two if I wanted to stay in Oslo, because I was, after all, an immigrant and coming from the Middle East, I needed a Visa. For that, there were rules and regulations. According to the rules, I needed a full-time job or a job that was about 80% within my field of studies. So, I ended up working as an interior architect in a firm that I one of the big firms in Oslo. I stayed there for a while. And then, after three years in Metropolis, I quit. I went to Radius, where I experienced a lot more fun working environment. And then, Radius ended up to Studio Lakayan, which is the small design studio I have today. Joseph: So let’s talk about that transition. It sounds like you’re working in various architectural capacities in the interior architectural space. Dorna: [24:38] Yeah. Joseph: At Metropolis, and then eventually Radius Design. What were you thinking at the time? Were you thinking you’re going to just continue to work as an employee at these companies? Or at what point did you start to think, “Hey, I might want to do my own thing”? Dorna: [24:51] Actually, I thought I will work at Radius for a long time. That was in the background when I started there. Like any other person, this corona event had a big impact on me as well. Especially, being in Oslo, in winter, darkness, fitting home, and working alone behind your computer with no social interaction, you start thinking and rethinking your life a lot. Joseph: This was 2020 to 2021, is when you were there. Dorna: [25:22] Yeah, exactly. I had a chat with my best friend and we are walking and she said, “But if you could do anything, like if you had the means to do anything you want to do, what would you do?” I said, “Oh, I wish then I would start my own studio.” And then, she’s like, “Why don’t you?” I’m like, “Well, I can,” and the whole thought began. So, it was a corona wish list, let’s say. Of course, I pursued it. I did some research. I saved money, all of the ABCs of “Let’s do this, and let’s be brave about it.” Of course, I can fail or not. Joseph: What was appealing about the idea of starting your own studio compared to working for an established firm? Dorna: [26:17] The biggest thing was the freedom of having a vision. Everybody who is in design or architecture is also aware of the fact that there are so many different signatures in design. When you work in big firms, you kind of lose that signature of your own. If you want to have that kind of vision and think in a very specific way or challenge some specific things, you need to either be very lucky or work with a very, very small team of people. That’s kind of what I decided to do, to change direction and work with the smaller team. It sounds like I’m one person, but in architecture, you are never one person. That’s the whole thing. You always have a team. But, of course, now I handpick that team. Joseph: If you can go back in time for a moment, Dorna, when you think back to those early days of making that decision to officially make the transition from employee to entrepreneur, what excited you about it, and what scared you about branching off on your own? Dorna: [27:35] There were, of course, two things. One that, “What if I can’t? What if I can’t deliver?” Because, okay, I knew I can do a project A to Z, and I knew my abilities, and everything, and the skills. But I also knew it takes a lot to deliver a good project. My colleagues at the firms I was working with were working day and nights to do that, and I was a part of that team doing it. Now, I have to be that team myself. That was the scary part. Of course, like anybody else, financial worry. I won’t have a pay check, but I still have a rental. The whole “bills to pay.” What if I cannot earn money? What would happen? That is the day you learn that either you are brave to do it or you just have to leave it. I decided to just be brave and do it. Exciting? Creating, I think. But that is always exciting for me. It doesn’t really matter what team I am in. I think that the moment you tell me that there’s a possibility that I can create, like I’m above the skies all over. Creating is what drives the whole cart. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey, you did make one more change, which is why you’re not in Oslo doing this interview and you’re actually in Amsterdam, what prompted you to make that move? Dorna: [29:15] Yes, I moved to Amsterdam. I think this decision was really about reinventing myself. Not as an architect only, but as a person. I spent a decade in Oslo, and I met fantastic people, and I built a lot of things there. And then, I also had a lot of opportunities to learn, I would say. But when I was successful a year ago there and I was looking at my future, I thought to myself, “So, is this it? Am I now happy?” If this is like where I want to be, and who I want to be, and what I want to have? I felt not. I felt I’m missing something. And then, I started actually digging in and seeing what I want to do then about it. What is it that I want? I mean, of course, one thing also was about the weather conditions in Oslo. That’s also another thing. And then, that moment was the moment that I was like, “Okay, where can I feed that part that is missing?” I needed a little bit of a bigger design theme, and a braver design scene as well in my head, more open. That kind of led into Amsterdam. Joseph: I know that sometimes moving to a new country can be a challenge. Although, you’ve now tackled that a few times successfully. Another thing that can be a challenge is working on your own. I know that you work with a team. But starting your own business on your own, having worked in already established businesses, how has that transition been for you to go from employee to business owner? Dorna: [30:56] Seriously, I’m not going to sugar-coat it. It’s not easy. Joseph: What’s the toughest thing about it? Dorna: [31:04] Some days, I feel like the toughest thing is waking up to nothing. There is no project. There is no potential project, or potential collaborator, or potential anything. But you still are so enthusiastic about doing it; that you wake up, and you hit something, and you find something, and you make a good day out of it. I think the challenge is to stay enthusiastic. That’s easier said than done, seriously. I mean, now, we talk about all of these moves that I made and we call it successful, but It’s not also easy to do that. To come from one country to another and to start over, to have no friend, have no family, have no support, have nothing to lean on, to start over, go out and be brave enough to just say, “Hey, my name is Dorna. I want to be your friend,” or “I want to work with you,” or any other sentence that comes after. Some cultures are more open. It makes it easier. Some cultures are not. It’s really challenging to do it. I cannot say that I’m successful yet or not. I have a lot of successes. There is still a long, long, long way to go. Joseph: It does take a lot of energy to start over and to rebuild, to re-acclimate yourself to a new culture, and to find new friends. How have you found the social scene there, and also what I’m going to describe as the professional social scene, where your ability to network with other people in the industry? How has that been for you there in Amsterdam? How would you describe that scene as someone from the outside? Dorna: [32:52] It is a very open scene. It’s a very welcoming scene, I would say also. People look at my portfolio or my work or people talk to me, I get a lot of great comments about my work, which is very encouraging. But at the same time, of course, one goal is to be a part of a circle, one goal is to work in that circle. To work in that circle, I still haven’t figured out. It’s developing and it’s getting better and better. I’m meeting more people. But to just go in and say hello, I have had a lot of success. They are really open to hear your story and to introduce you to the next person who might be interested in your story and things like that. So that is developing, and I think it’s just like a maze or a puzzle. You have to just be patient and put more and more pieces to your future map. It’s joyful, but it’s also, as you said, tiring. It takes a lot of energy to find where to be, where to meet these people, to send a lot of emails. Not all of them reply. Not everybody replies. To call people and say, “Hey, I have sent you an email by the way.” All of those things, it’s really like I say, more than a full-time job just to socialize. Joseph: I know what you mean. I run my own business, Dorna, as you know. Dorna: [34:25] Yeah. Joseph: I think one of the most challenging things that I sometimes struggle with is a lack of a support system. I feel very alone at times. I’m wondering, do you feel that? Where do you turn for support when you’re feeling like your motivation isn’t where you want it to be? Dorna: [34:45] I listen to your podcast. But, seriously, I think that’s what I can because I also feel alone. I feel down. There are days that I’m like, “Oh, my God, what did I do? Was it the right decision?” There are days that I doubt myself. I doubt myself as a designer. A lot of downs and downs. Because I always say, we hear a lot of stories of success. Joseph: Yeah. Dorna: [35:14] In social media, and here and there and there. Nobody tells what was it like to get there. That’s the part that is missing. It’s very difficult. There are down days, 100%; lonely days, 100%. I haven’t found really a good solution. But I mean it when I say I listen to other people who are going through the same thing or have done the same thing. Just that makes me feel like I’m not alone. People have done it. Other people know. Joseph: Absolutely. I think just feeling like it’s a normal thing to go through. Dorna: [35:53] Yeah. Joseph: Can be comforting and reassuring, in and of itself. Dorna: [35:56] One hundred percent, 100%. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about was just a couple of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. My first question relates to what you alluded to and have been talking about throughout this whole conversation, which is going from being an outsider to an insider, which is something that I think we all struggle with. Not only when you move to a different country, but also even when you just shift into a new industry or even our new employee at a new company. What have you learned about what it takes to penetrate into these inner circles? Dorna: [36:33] I think the biggest thing that I have learned, which I’m still learning, let’s say it that way because it’s hard to remember it all the time, is that nothing is personal. It’s not about me that people don’t reply their emails, or it’s not about me that today, somebody doesn’t smile or all of those things, or somebody doesn’t look at your portfolio, or somebody doesn’t take your call, or all of those things that happen every day. To stay positive is important, and I really know it’s easier said than done because I struggle some days with it myself to remember that I have to stay positive and it will get somewhere. But one has to just do it, to believe in yourself, as cliché as it is, to know that however it will end, you are investing in yourself. Even if not as a professional, as a person. This will definitely make something else out of you. This is your journey. If you trust in that, something good will come out of it. One way or another, it has happened to me. As I said, it is not all the [starry nights]. Joseph: Right. Last question, before we wrap up with what your focused on at this particular moment, and one of the projects that I find interesting. What have you learned about yourself along the way of this career journey of yours? Dorna: [38:09] Number one, as I said, I think I learned I’m braver that I think. I generally think I learned to trust the fact that this too shall pass, to trust that life goes on. As long as I am enthusiastic about what I’m doing and I am excited about my future, opportunities will pop up. But I always thought I’m a very positive person. But being a positive person and having a drive to drive this positivity is two different things. I could never think that I’m this strong, that I can drive myself regardless of anything, and just believe in the fact that something good is out there. I think I learned that I can be way, way stronger and braver than I think. I’m of proud that. It’s like Dorna is a human being, it’s better than I thought. Joseph: Well, that’s a good place to wrap this up. I would like to just finish up with something that you’re focused on right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about, first of all, the type of work that you’re doing there at Studio Lakayan? I’d be especially interested here about your YouTube series, “Lakayan Loves.” Dorna: [39:34] Loves. At the Studio Lakayan, I am very much focused in space design. That means interior architecture, practically in my field of work. It’s space planning, making a good use of the space, functionality, and then to, of course, aesthetics, and moods, and fields, materials, finishes. Sometimes, furniture design, all of those, lighting design. So whatever matters within the space that you use, it can be an office, it can be your residence, it can be a hotel, it can be a shop. It doesn’t really matter. As long as it is a space that is tangible, that is what we do or what I do. The Lakayan Loves, it’s something that I’m extremely excited about. Because, of course, I create a lot of things myself, but there’s a lot of people in this world, and there are a lot of fantastic designers and architects who are creating beautiful work. I love them, and I see them, and sometimes I just look at them, and I admire their work. I’m like, “See this beautiful thing they have created.” And then, I always felt like it’s such a pity that I can never share it with other people. I don’t like this trend on Instagram where people are just sharing other people’s work and just saying that “credit from this, credit from that.” Joseph: Right, yeah. Dorna: [41:03] I feel like there is more into it. There is this beautiful thing that we can look at and talk about. And then, I decided to create this short series where I can, very short, in less than a minute, show some of the works of my fellow colleagues and say what I admire about it. And then, help other people maybe see it as well. Maybe they already are seeing it. I’m not sure. But if not, maybe I give them that eye or those glasses. Joseph: Very cool. I’m definitely going to check that out myself. Dorna: [41:38] Yes, please do. Joseph: If anybody who’s listening to this wants to learn more about you or the work that you do, where can they go? Dorna: [41:47] Of course, lakayan.no or .com is available. You can check me out there. But I’m also on Instagram and on LinkedIn. Both are available on the website. So I would be happy to hear from people. If they are in Amsterdam, I would be happy to have coffee. Joseph: All right. Well, we’ll definitely include all those handles and links in the show notes. Wanted to thank you so much, Dorna, for telling us more about your life as an architect and your experiences of living in so many places, and also your recent decision to run your own studio. Best of luck with all your work. I would encourage people to check out your design work on Instagram, and even just your banner image on LinkedIn, which I told you when we first exchanged messages, isn’t too far off from being my dream home so I may take you up at some point on sketching out what my dream home concept could be. Dorna: [42:39] It could be. Oh, my god! That’s going to be so much fun. I would love to do that. Joseph: Me, too. One day. Dorna: [42:45] Thank you for wishing me luck. I really need luck. I’m wishing luck for everyone who’s listening because I know they are also some people probably who are starting or shifting in their careers. So, good luck, everyone.

The start of a new job or chapter in your career can be a sensitive, delicate time. It’s a moment when you’re trying to convince yourself you’ve made the right move. It’s also a moment when you’re trying to convince others you can do something, which may be very different from what you were doing before. Moving onto something new is harder than holding on to what you already have, even if what you have isn’t bringing you joy. In episode 102 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sandeep Achanta, a former fitness professional in India turned service designer in the UK describes how you can discover what ignites you, bravely leap into a new professional role, and embrace your unique career journey.  I also share some thoughts on overcoming the mental hurdle of starting over during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights While you may be in a comfortable job with relative stability, you might still feel like something is off, like you could be doing more. When this happens, you have to ask yourself when you will cross a tipping point and make the leap to do something else. The decision to change careers is separate from the transition process. The actual transition could take months or years to execute, which is just part of making a major pivot. If you’re dissatisfied with your current role, you have broadly two options. You can either find a way to tolerate and manage your situation, or you can proactively attempt to do something else. Humility is a critical component of making any career change. You may have to start over a bit, drop down to a lower rung on a corporate ladder, or report to someone who may be younger than you. During a career change, we tend to discount or dismiss away our previous experiences that don’t directly relate to a new role. Those experiences are exactly what enables you to make your unique contribution. 📚 Resources Mentioned Sandeep mentioned he began his exploration of service design with the Interaction Design Foundation. Learn more about CrossFit at the official CrossFit website. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked overcoming the emotional hurdle of starting over. My challenge to you is to identify one small, imperfect step you could take toward doing something that could allow you to feel more energized. Ideas include: Giving yourself a quiet moment to just reflect on how you’ve been emotionally feeling about your career Taking a small leap of faith. Taking stock of which skills or experiences you want to carry forward so you can more fully buy into making that leap. Remember, you don’t have to have it all mapped out right now. You just have to start somewhere. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:17 Chat with Sandeep Achanta 00:45:54 Mental Fuel 00:52:04 Listener Challenge 00:52:48 Listener Thoughts 00:54:59 Wrap Up 👤 About Sandeep Achanta Sandeep Achanta is currently a Service Designer working at the Bank of England. After spending over a decade in the fitness industry in India across various roles such as trainer, business owner, and product lead, he decided to pursue a Master’s program in Service Design at Loughborough University London. During his time at university, he worked on projects with organisations such as Mind, the mental health charity, and the Hackney Council public health team. Sandeep is passionate about designing great services that are sustainable and improve health and well-being. In his spare time, he loves playing tabletop games and reading fantasy fiction. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on X and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Kevin Shrout – d’entreprise en feu Hazy – Letting Go Lotus – The Warm and Absolute Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Podington Bear – Lucky Stars Diet 75 – 66 Halos Joystock – Write Your Story 📄 Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay, Sandeep. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Sandeep: [03:25] Thank you so much for having me on. Like I said, I’ve been a long-time fan and listener of the podcast, so it really is a pleasure and an honor to be on. Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what has been keeping you busy in your career and your life at this moment. What are you focused on right now? Sandeep: [03:45] I’ve just about landed on the other side of my career change journey. I’ve just started working as a service designer at the Bank of England. And so, what I’m really focused on is getting a sense of what it’s like to work in this field, and getting a sense of how to use a new toolkit that’s at my fingers, so to speak. Joseph: For those people, like me, who are not exactly familiar with what a service designer does, I think it’s probably a less common job title. What exactly do you do for the Bank of England? Sandeep: [04:20] A service designer helps manage the people, systems, processes, and interactions in the end-to-end delivery of a service. Basically, think of any common service that we interact with on a day-to-day basis, like a coffee shop. That’s the easiest example because you can sort of break it down from the beans to the cup of coffee in your hand and essentially, you’re thinking about all the different steps that it goes through, all the people that enable those steps, and then how all of those things fit together. A service designer basically looks at that and says, “Here are some things that we can do better to improve the experience, to be more efficient at it,” or might even potentially create a completely new service getting coffee delivered to your doorstep, for example, is a service innovation, so to speak. Joseph: How long have you been in this line of work? Sandeep: [05:12] Three months. Joseph: Three months, okay. This is really cool because we’re catching you right at the very beginning, which is nice because I can kind of hear some of your thoughts about the transition. I will come back to your time at the Bank of England, which I know is quite a new role for you. But before we do that, let’s go back in time. I know you haven’t always been a service designer for the Bank of England. Where are you from originally, and where did you grow up as a kid? Sandeep: [05:36] I moved around a lot when I was younger, but I primarily grew up in Chennai in South India. It was a fairly normal Indian upbringing. I grew up in school, expecting to become a doctor, engineer. I guess it was the only two options. There were things like lawyers and everything else further along the line, but those were the only two options. I always had a keen interest in art, and drawing, and sketching. I ended up sort of going to a career in graphic design early on. Joseph: What do you remember about life there as a child in Chennai? I guess I’m interested in both just what was on your mind at the time, if you can remember that far back, and also the types of things that you were interested in. I know you just alluded to that just now. Sandeep: [06:24] I think what I remember most about my time in Chennai is, I’ve moved around a lot when I was a kid. I remember when I was really young that my brother and I responded to the moving around in very different ways. My brother was very extroverted and he made friends very quickly. I was a little bit more introverted. It took me a little bit longer to make friends and to get used to it. Every time we moved, it was a little disrupted. But something that I found was when I was getting a little older that really helped me make friends was that I was always interested in sort of making up stories and in collaborating, for lack of a better word, on creating stories. I used to play a crude version of Dungeons and Dragons back in India. We used to play a lot of tabletop games or board games, and there would be a lot of made-up games that we’d essentially come up with. I guess, in a strange way, it does connect to some of the things I’m doing now. Joseph: Let’s go through the journey here. You mentioned you worked in graphic design, initially. And then, pretty quickly, shifted to work in the fitness industry. Do I have that right? How did that all start for you? Sandeep: [07:37] I started work in the graphic design industry. Essentially, I was working as a graphic designer for a few different companies. There was a publishing house, and there was travels and tours company. Essentially, when I joined as a designer, what I ended up doing for them was logistics. It was a very small company, a start-up. And so, everyone wore multiple hats. I found that I automatically sort of gravitated towards this other skill set that I had of organizing things and being able to effectively sort of keep track of tasks and delegate things. I found myself not enjoying the work as much because the growth was slow, as anyone in graphic design or advertising will tell you, the first eight to 10 years is essentially a grind. Unless you deeply enjoy the work, it can be difficult to have staying power. I found that it wasn’t really going anywhere. I wasn’t really learning a whole lot. I was thinking about what to do next. Around that time, I ended up joining a CrossFit-like gym that was back home in India. I really enjoyed it. I had such a great time. I liked it so much in fact that I asked him, “Hey, can I intern here?” Joseph: You were doing CrossFit yourself. You were the one doing the exercise. Sandeep: [08:56] Yeah. Joseph: Okay. Sandeep: [08:57] It was a different lifetime. Essentially, what I would do is — and it was amazing because I can’t imagine the amount of energy that I had in my early 20s. Joseph: Yeah. Sandeep: [09:06] Because I would essentially wake up at 4:00, intern there from 5 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning, shower, go to my day job, finish up at 5:00 in the evening, go back home, pass out, and repeat this for the rest of the week. After about six months of doing that, they said, “You sure are hanging out here a whole lot and you want a job.” It was a difficult transition because I had to get qualified, get my certifications under my belt. My parents weren’t particularly happy that all of the education that they invested in was amounting to their son becoming, in their words, a gym trainer, but I was really, really passionate about it and I had a knack for it as well. The few times that I did, for example, jump in and run classes, I’ve always got very positive feedback. And so, about six months later, I ended up jumping on both legs and started working as a trainer in the fitness industry. Joseph: That’s interesting because this is back in — do I have this right? 2011-ish, around that time. This is way before CrossFit became a big thing, which is I think it has become way more popular in recent years. You’re actually teaching these classes and you are a trainer at the gym. How did you enjoy that? What was that like for you? Sandeep: [10:17] I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with people, which is something that hit me. The job made me realize I really enjoyed working closely with people, helping them improve the quality of their lives, having conversations about their well-being. The most important part of it for me was really that, oftentimes, this was the first part of people’s days. It was at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., or 7 a.m. I really enjoyed that if I did everything right as a service, and I was able to give someone an excellent start to their day, my assumption was that the rest of their day went well. Usually, that was the feedback that we got as well. People were like, “Oh, I feel so great. I’m so happy when I come in and do my workout. Can I just do this all the time?” I really enjoyed having that experience. And so, I really enjoyed it. The other side of it that I really found myself enjoying as well was that I found myself very, very passionate to learn about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, and the whole nuts and bolts of it. I remember really getting very, very nerdy into it, and I remember getting about five or six certifications in the span of a couple of years, which was fairly rapid, and some of them were not easy to complete. Joseph: That’s really interesting. I’m just curious, were you always somebody who had been interested in fitness yourself? Had you been a pretty healthy guy growing up, or were you someone who was exercising a lot? Sandeep: [11:47] Funnily enough, not at all. Actually, I’ve never played sports in my life. I’ve never engaged in formal sports. But that said, and here’s something that I found out only much later, my mom tells me that when I was much. much younger, I really enjoyed climbing. I really enjoyed randomly running around the neighborhood and being physically active. I just didn’t like sports. I just didn’t like organized sports at all. And so, when they did put me in organized sports, I didn’t respond well. But before that, I always did enjoy it. Even after that, yes. Before I got into the fitness industry as well, I used to like trying random physical endeavors; like rock climbing or parkour. I could never stick to anything for very long, but I did enjoy experimenting for sure. Joseph: You would start off as a trainer. You were doing that for a while. And then, eventually, you switched over and shifted more toward doing work on the business side of the training and fitness industry. Tell me about that transition. Sandeep: [12:53] It started with the organization that I was working for. And so, the first step, as with any early career, is I essentially went from being a trainer to managing other trainers. Again, that was also a process that I really enjoyed because as I had mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed being organized. And so, as you can imagine, a lot of the trainers that we were getting were quite young. They were between 18 and 21, 22, and oftentimes, this was their first job. I really enjoyed the process of mentorship; both in terms of bringing them onboard into what being a fitness professional was like. But then, also actually onboarding them onto being a working professional; showing up on time, being professional with the clients, knowing what to say and what not to say, which is a bigger deal than you think it is, especially in an exercise environment. I really enjoyed that process. And then, from that stage, essentially, I went to managing a center. This is when I got involved in sales. This is when I got involved in marketing. This is when I got involved in ensuring that the finances of the center made sense. If I had stayed there longer, I think I would have gotten involved in the strategic side of things as well. Joseph: Were you thinking at the time that this was what you’re going to do long-term? Were you enjoying that? Did you see yourself in that industry for a while? Sandeep: [14:18] At that point, I honestly thought I would be doing it forever. How things changed. Joseph: What changed for you? When did you start thinking that you might want to shift and do something else? Sandeep: [14:28] I think towards the end of it, unfortunately, I found myself limited in terms of the impact that I could have. I remember, I kept coming back to the idea of impact and I had to really unpack it for myself and understand what I meant by that. I realized that it was important to me that services or products that I created were scalable, replicable, and widely applicable. I didn’t have the knowledge to do that. I had become such a specialist that, essentially, from that organization, I moved to another organization where I was helping create fitness products that were being delivered to a much bigger audience. We were then creating services for 100,000 to 150,000 customer base. I still found that the ways that I was contributing to that were fairly limited. I was writing workouts, creating operating procedures for the trainers, or ideating with product developers on what might be ways to create new interesting workouts. I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I could do more. I just couldn’t do it right now. Once I realized that it was almost as though the seeds of dissatisfaction were sown, and over the next couple of years, it just started becoming more and more obvious to me that I needed to move. Joseph: Yeah, this is something I think that comes up with a lot of people who both come on to this show and also listeners of this show, as you are in a fairly comfortable environment, fairly comfortable job. You have a decent amount of financial and personal “success,” and yet, you just feel like something’s a little bit off. I’m just wondering, what was the tipping point for you when this went from dissatisfaction to complete dismay where you knew that something had to change for you? Sandeep: [16:22] It actually went through several steps. I think as much as I would like to sit here and say that there was a flash of inspiration and I knew what I had to do, it actually took, I’d say, almost three years and went through several iterations. When I was working with this organization, as I thought through it a little bit, and I did work with a therapist on essentially mental health issues that I was having, because I was burnt out by the work that I was doing, I realized that the idea of autonomy and agency was quite important to me. With large organizations, as you can imagine, that’s not something that’s easily available to everyone. I think there’s autonomy and agency right at the top. And then, unless you’re at sea level, and maybe not even there, there isn’t necessarily a lot of autonomy. And so, I realized that that was important to me. That was a core value. And so, I did what was a potentially very risky move and quit my job in the midst of the pandemic to try and create my own online fitness service with the intent that this would be much more holistic. It wouldn’t be focused on losing weight or getting six-pack abs, but it would be much more living a better quality of life, integrating fitness practices, and good nutrition practices into your core values, and so on. I did that for a little while and it was successful. But then, what started happening was I realized two things. One, that I’m not a very good entrepreneur. I wasn’t very good at drawing boundaries for myself when I was working as an entrepreneur. That made it very difficult for me to have work-life balance. It was around this time that I got engaged. After enough weekends of listening to me whine about this, my fiancé, now wife, said I either have to do something about this or say you’re going to do it, continue doing it, and then deal with it. But the other side of it was also that I started doing a lot of the exercises that I had mentioned when we initially spoke that I’d come across on your YouTube channel, as well as some of the other career change exercises that I had come across. I started to be able to articulate specifically what the gap was. I started to be able to articulate why I was feeling unhappy and where I was feeling unhappy. And so, I think that realization combined with the fact that I was starting to be a very grumpy person to be around made me realize that either I had to have the courage to go ahead and change, or figure out ways of continuing to make this work. Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Sandeep, you even talk about that transition. You’ve now realized you’ve got to do something about this situation and something needs to change. How did you then decide what to do next? It sounds like you took some time to clear your head and watch some of those videos, do some of the exercises. How did you figure out where to go from there? Sandeep: [19:38] It was hard for sure. I think especially because there was a lot of negative self-talk in terms of I had put myself into a certain description, so to speak. I was Sandeep, the fitness subject matter expert, and didn’t have any other skills. I think it took me some time to come to grips with the idea of things like transferable skills, come to grips with the idea of reflecting on what prior interests might have been, and also taking a slightly more exploratory approach to the potential next steps. That kind of made me realize that, okay, I did have some transferable skills. Sure, some of there may not be skills that I may put on a resume. It would be things like people’s skills or communication because I find that often they’re overused and a little vague. But I found that, okay, I do have these skills. I do believe that I can work with people. I do believe that I’m fairly organized and can manage projects. I do believe that I’m fairly effective at communicating across a wide range of stakeholders, and also collaborating with a wide range of stakeholders because those were experiences that I had. I think that was one, realizing that, “Okay, my next step can be built off of these transferable skills.” And then, the next thing that I started looking at was, “Okay, all right, what am I interested in right now?” That took me a while to sort of encapsulate as well. I was initially interested in behavioral psychology because I still wanted to explore well-being. And so, that was something that I did consider. When I came across service design and design was when I realized that, actually, what I was looking for in terms of my desire to create scalable, and replicable services and products is an understanding of how products are created at scale and understanding of how services are created at scale, and what goes into that. That’s when I started sort of poking around product design, service design. When I started reading more about service design, I did a course on service design online by the Interaction Design Foundation. As I was doing it, for the first time in a few years, I lit up. Joseph: A-ha. Sandeep: [22:01] I felt amazed at how alive I felt. I was amazed at how natural the process of service design felt. It didn’t feel like a completely new discipline. It felt like something that I had done in some form of fashion before. Now, I just had a new toolkit to do it with. Which is when I took a bit of a risk, and I said, “Okay, I’d like to go ahead and study this,” and it worked out very, very well. Joseph: Sometimes, what happens is we get so used to the job that we’re in and we get so accustomed to the routine of it all that we kind of forget how we used to feel or how we could feel. We feel like the way that we are experiencing each day is just par for the course as good as it gets. It’s not until you actually do something that you really enjoy that you realize, while this feels like me, this feels oddly familiar. As you put it, you really light up. You mentioned that you decided to go back and study design, and you would eventually go back to university full-time. This was after being in the professional world for, I think it was it 12 years that you’d been working at this point. How did you decide where to go study this, and how did you navigate what can be kind of a jarring transition going from working full time to studying full time? Sandeep: [23:19] It was pretty nerve-wracking, to be honest, at first. I think, initially, I wasn’t very serious about it for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned, which is I thought I was too old. I thought it was too much of a financial commitment. It was too much of a time commitment to go back to university at this age. Joseph: How old were you at that time? Sandeep: [23:40] I just turned 31. Joseph: Uh-huh, okay. Sandeep: [23:42] It definitely felt significant. But what happened was, funny enough, in the midst of the pandemic, I met and started dating my now wife. And so, she was about to start a PhD in the UK. She was living in Chennai at that point in time. We decided to get married. She was like, “Well, I’m going next year. I’m not going to change those plans because we’re getting married.” I was like, “Yes, of course.” There was a decision to be made. Essentially, I could go to the UK with her, look at continuing my fitness career here, and then looking at studying service design on the side, which is something that I did briefly consider. I did consider looking at open university, or other part-time courses, or perhaps pivoting to service design within the fitness industry. I think the more that I thought about it, it came back to that feeling of feeling alive. I realized there was a potential decision where I could go back to university and it felt risky but, at the same time, it was very exciting. The prospect of having a year to really risk it all in some ways and see whether I could make it work gave me a sense of butterflies in my stomach but was also very, very exciting. I think that was when I felt as though I had to take a leap of faith. Either I could iteratively try things and hopefully things worked out, or I could take a leap of faith and then see where things went. It made me realize that perhaps I am the kind of person who actually likes taking a leap of faith if there is enough of a reward there. And so, I think that was part of the decision that made me decide to go back to university. We got married. I think within weeks of us getting married, I started my master’s program. I moved halfway across the world to do that. Yeah, it was incredibly challenging, but it was a fantastic experience. Joseph: You were at Loughborough. Was this your first time in the UK, this move with her? Sandeep: [25:48] Yes. I’d visited for very, very short trips before that, but this was the first time that I’d moved. Joseph: What do you remember about the early days of landing in the UK having come all the way here from Chennai? Sandeep: [26:00] Funnily enough, Joseph, the months leading up to the move were absolutely nerve-wracking. Because I was thinking about finding a house, trying to figure out where everything was on Google Maps, trying to figure out how I could make sure that I had food in my kitchen. Because in India, as you can imagine, labor is quite cheap. I don’t remember the last time that I had to cook for myself. Joseph: Oh, right. Okay. Sandeep: [26:25] When I moved here, it was a bit of a shock, for sure. But I think I surprised myself with how quickly I was able to adapt. Not so much in terms of the cooking that I managed that I had done before. But in terms of the culture is very different. The educational culture is very, very different. Whereas in India, it’s much more top-down. It’s much more performance-driven, grades-driven. Here, it was much more exploratory. There was a lot more open-ended teaching. I found that all of that worked very, very well for me. I really enjoyed the university experience here. I love being in London. It was fairly incredible. I was living in East London, which I know is frowned upon, but I really enjoyed living there, to be honest. It was a very colorful, diverse population, so I had a great time. Joseph: I guess when you think about being back in school, it sounds like you were really enjoying it. What was the hardest part about being back in school after all these years of having not sat in a classroom? I know, you did some certification on the side. You did some online learning. But being in the classroom is very different. What was challenging about that? Sandeep: [27:36] There were two things that I found the most challenging. One was, I’d forgotten what it was like to learn from a textbook, if that makes sense. Joseph: Yeah, it does. Sandeep: [27:49] I had been learning constantly and I’d been growing constantly, but it was always learning on the job. I think it had been several years since I had learned from a textbook. I found that a little bit challenging, and it took some time to get used to. But I think once I did, I found it very, very rewarding. To this day, it’s something that I find that I still enjoy, and I find that it’s something that I’m able to maintain as a passion. The other thing that I found really challenging was that I was much older than all of the other students. There was an average of an eight to 10-year-old age gap between me and the rest of the students because I was 33 at this point, and everyone else was between 21 and 24. There was a significant age gap. I found that, initially, it felt like it came with several disadvantages. I generally found that I didn’t have the — I don’t want to say energy in terms of physical energy, I still felt mostly physically energetic, but I didn’t have the mental energy to go chase 10 different directions at once, if that makes sense. I found that my curiosity was much more focused than spread out, which, again, was both a boon and a bane. I found that it took me a moment to realize that as a slightly older student with a little bit more work experience, I had to navigate this process a little bit differently for myself. It took me a few months to do that. I think when I was able to figure out how to make it work for me, I think that’s when I really started to make the most of it. I can give you some examples of this. I realized that, for example, most of the PhD students were closer to my age, or the professors weren’t that much older than me and were willing to have a conversation with me because I had some amount of experience. And so, I was able to converse with them and engage with them outside of the classroom environment. That was very, very useful and that’s where I really learned the most. While the classroom experience itself of the university was great, I really, really, really enjoyed understanding who these people were, what led them to design, how they are applying it in their careers today, and how they saw the role of design in the world even, so to speak. I know that sounds sort of vague and new age-y, but I genuinely mean it helped me understand the context for what I could potentially do with this new skill once I graduated. Joseph: Before we switch gears and talk about your time now as a service designer, because I am very interested to hear about how that’s been going for you, we should probably talk about how you and I first crossed paths. As I understand it, I guess a couple weeks after your arrival, came to one of my career seminars, which I assume was online at the time. In December of 2023, that’s when you actually wrote me a very kind email, which is how we first connected. It wasn’t until then that I actually realized that you had been on this career change journey. Before we talk about your time as a service designer, can you just tell me about how it felt when you graduated from your program with distinction, by the way? What was that moment like for you? Sandeep: [30:58] Graduating was a very emotional moment for several reasons. It speaks to the amount of self-doubt that I had before engaging on the whole process. Not just of university, but of the career change itself. When I initially started having feelings of doubt in the fitness industry, the thought that really stopped me is, “But you’ve spent so much time and effort in this industry, and you haven’t taken the time to acquire any other skills. You haven’t worked in the corporate world. You haven’t acquired the job titles that people usually do by this age. This is the path that you’re locked in.” I could see that path. I could see some of my colleagues would pass me. I had told myself that that was all I was going to be able to do, and there was no way for me to break out of that. Graduating with a distinction, graduating with a job, graduating with fantastic feedback from my research advisor, as well as with the organization that I worked with during my dissertation, all of that was very emotional for me because it was an indicator that my leap of faith had paid off. Yes, the certification meant a lot, but the culmination of everything that had started several years ago was very, very emotional for me. Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, for graduating with distinction, just a few months ago. I am very interested to hear how things are going for you. I know you’re only a few months into it. That can be a very broad question to just ask somebody, how are things going? I’m going to try to guide this a little bit based on what you and I discussed before we started this recording. One of the things that I remember you told me when we first connected was that you’re so focused on landing on your feet that you didn’t really think about what would happen once you landed on the other side. Could you just explain to me what you mean by that? Sandeep: [34:59] I think when I was looking up service design and what a service designer does, what a service design role involves, I don’t think I realized that I would be starting at the bottom in many ways. I don’t think that I really considered what that would mean, what would a junior service designer role look like. I didn’t consider what the emotional brunt of that would feel like after having had expertise before, after having been in a field where I had competence, where I was confident because of that competence, where I had agency because of that competence. And so, on the other side, not only am I using a new skill set that I am not very familiar with, but I’m also in an industry that I have absolutely zero experience with. There is an element of figuring out a new skill set within a new domain. What I meant by, I didn’t consider what that would feel like is that, tactically, it’s hard. Yes, there are a lot of things that need to be done. There’s a lot of upskilling that needs to be done outside of work. But emotionally, it’s very hard as well. It really is an exercise in humility because you have to be okay with the fact that there are people younger than you who have not done a career change, who are probably in more senior positions, who probably have more experience, who are more competent and more confident in their skills. I think there’s also you might be reporting to people who possibly have less overall career experience than you, or who maybe don’t have as much expertise as you did in your previous role, right? I spent 12 years in the fitness industry, which might be, say, less than somebody spent in product design or career design. But I would be reporting to them for a good reason because they have much more competence at this thing. I think all of this really is an exercise in humility. But I think along with that, it comes back to what you’d said about transferable skills, which is having a sense of confidence in skills that I previously acquired in figuring out how they translate in this new environment is not a process that I can take for granted. It’s a process that I have to consciously seek out and enable. Joseph: Has there been anything in particular that you have learned about yourself during this process of going from being an experienced professional to what can feel like you’re going to the bottom rung of a totem pole, I guess, to put it bluntly? What have you learned about yourself as you’ve been going through this exercise and humility as you put it? Sandeep: [35:54] As much as it sounds like I am in a sense whining about starting at the bottom, I’m actually not. I will say that I do enjoy it in some ways. Although, I did feel a lot of discomfort at the idea of starting again and not having competence. But I think what it made me realize is what I am actually good at and what I actually do enjoy. I’ve realized, for example, that the things that, in a situation like this in an uncomfortable situation, I enjoy doing is figuring out a way to provide value in the ways that I can. For my team, for example, I’ve started taking up the tasks that nobody else wants to do, that are not fun to do, that might be admin work, or that might be collaborating with people and setting up meetings and doing the grunt work. I find that finding ways for me to add value is something that I am happy to be open-minded and curious about and find my own way through. The other thing is that I do tend to undervalue some of the transferable skills that I have. Recently, I had a review with my line manager as it’s been about three months. Some of the feedback that she had for me was that I undersell a lot of the skills that I’ve acquired from previous experience. And so, something that she was highlighting was that by discounting that, I don’t allow myself to contribute in ways that I already can, using expertise that I already have. It got me thinking about how going through something like this, I think it’s easy to discount all the previous knowledge that you have or all the previous abilities that you have. I think it’s very important to understand the value of it when you’re going through this process so that not only does it give you a sense of confidence when you’re starting off at the bottom of the totem pole, but it also allows you to figure out a way forward that is uniquely yours. What I mean by that is, I think if I was to throw all of that out the window and start off from scratch and say, “I’m going to try and be the best service designer that I can,” that’s probably going to take me another 10 years to do that. However, if I say, “I’m going to be the best combination of whatever skills that I already have, and then combine them with the new skill set that I have,” it might pay an opportunity for me to contribute in a unique way that perhaps if I was just trying to be the best service designer that I can, I wouldn’t be able to. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I guess we can have a tendency of almost dismissing away our past experiences, which on the surface might seem very irrelevant to our current role, but actually do provide us with some unique perspective and allow us to add value in a unique way that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to. I suppose the last thing I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up, if we continue to focus on your new role and how different it has been for you and the career change journey you’ve been on, has there been anything particularly surprising about your transition going from the fitness industry into becoming a service designer with the Bank of England? Sandeep: [39:07] I think actually the most surprising things have not necessarily been with regards to the profession itself, but with regards to working in a different country because the culture is completely different in the UK than back home in India. I’m able to navigate the domain differences and the skill differences. Because often, it’s about learning a new skill set or learning information that you didn’t have before, and then understanding it and how to work within it. Culture differences between back home and here is something that I need a lot of help with often. Little things like ask my boss, “Hey, can I step out for lunch and I’ll be back in an hour and a half?” She’s like, “Yeah, you’re not chained to your desk. It’s fine. You can do that.” Or knowing that even though there is, say, hierarchy within the organization, that is completely fine for me to speak to someone who is a couple of levels up and ask them what might potentially be a stupid question. These are things that are frowned upon or I’ve not always had the opportunity to do before. There are, I would say, the most surprising thing has been learning about the cultural differences between different parts of the world. It’s something that I was sort of aware of, but experiencing it first-hand is completely different. Joseph: I’ve never been to India myself. I do work with people in India quite regularly, and there are definitely some differences I do notice in the working style. Also, just like life in general, I suppose, when you move from one country to another. I’ve been here for 14 years now, Sandeep, and I still, like on a daily basis, I still struggle with aspects of British culture, even after all this time. And so, I think you’re right in pointing out that some of these more tactical things like navigating a new industry or function or role can actually be learned, but those cultural nuances and differences can be much harder to navigate. A couple more questions for you before we wrap up. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing careers, what might that be? Sandeep: [41:12] To really be more confident in myself and my abilities. This actually goes back to one of your videos, and also the question that I asked you back in 2022 when you presented at my university, which is, “If you have any kind of work experience at all, whether it’s a couple of years, whether it’s several years, I think really have confidence in what you can do, and especially what you can do well.” Because I think knowing what you’re good at, what you like doing, and what you want to continue to do, will allow you to cleave clearly what you don’t want to do or what you’re not good at, and will also allow you to in the future stack skills on top of that and say, “This is actually who I am. I am not just Sandeep, who likes to organize, work with people, collaborate, teach; but I’m Sandeep who likes to do all of this in the context of developing services.” It’s kind of like you’re building on top of who you are, rather than starting from scratch each time. I think the reason why I would give myself that advice is because I personally needed a lot more confidence when I was starting off. Joseph: When you look back on this career pivot, what’s something you wished you had known that you now know since you are now on the other side of it? Actually, I guess you’re still going through it. Sandeep: [42:39] It’s that as long as I’m following my interests, it’s enjoyable. I think the reason why I’d say I wish I had known that is because I was trying to make sense of everything from such a rational point of view, where I was trying to make sense of all the dots and made sure that when they all connected, there was a beautiful picture at the end of it. But it’s not always that clear, is it? But all the time, it’s worked out. Whether it’s university, whether it was my dissertation, whether it was my job, whether it was the internships that I did, any time I was doing something that I was interested in, and I followed that interest, it always paid off. Yeah, I wish I had known that and I’m still working on that. Because I think it’s very easy to drift back into the mode of, “Okay, this is the right decision to make.” I wish I had known that. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sandeep, for going such a deep dive into all of your reflections that you’ve had over the years, and telling us about your life, both back in India and how you pivoted to restart your career here in the UK. I appreciate you reaching out back in December and dropped me a really kind email. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your new role there at the Bank of England, and your life as a service designer right now. I hope it continues to go well for you. Sandeep: [44:06] Thank you so much. Like I mentioned in the email, I cannot understate the impact that you’ve had in my life. You were such an incredibly important part at the beginning of this journey. I’m sure you’ve forgotten about those YouTube videos that you probably made way back when, but I’m sure there’s people like me who are still watching them and are able to actually take actionable lessons and steps away from that and do something with it. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Joseph. Joseph: Of course. Sandeep: [44:34] It really meant so much. I’m continuing to listen to the podcast, and I wish you all the best with everything. Joseph: Thank you so much. It’s been really meaningful to connect with you, and it’s not every day that I hear from people who watch my videos. It has been a while since I’ve done those years. I should probably get back to that at some point here, but I appreciate you saying that. It really does mean a lot to me, and it’s just been a real privilege to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on. Sandeep: [44:57] Thank you for the kind words.

When was the last time you took some time off from work? I often feel this pressure to keep plowing ahead in my career, to not take detours, and to not slow down. However, taking a momentary pause during a job transition is often the only real opportunity you have to slow down, recalibrate, and reconsider where you want to take your career next. HR professional Gisela Prunes Garcia shares her thoughts on the complexities of living and working in different countries, putting yourself out there before you’re ready, and managing your internal thoughts during uncertain career transitions. In episode 101 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the tension between professional achievement and periodic reflection during the Mental Fuel® segment. 💡Key Career Change Insights Returning to your home country after living elsewhere may not always fill you with the comfort you might expect from familiar surroundings and can instead leave you feeling confused about where you belong. Talking about your career when you’re working for an established, well-known company is much easier than discussing your transitions or messy periods in your professional trajectory. While uncomfortable, career transitions can be a very fertile ground to explore other interests and paths that you may have otherwise ignored or overlooked while being focused on climbing the corporate ladder. 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenge you to periodically permit yourself to slow down, even if it’s just for a day, and allow yourself to have a bit of a metaphorical palate cleanser. During these momentary pauses, ask yourself: What’s my level of satisfaction with where my career is headed right now? What action can I take to better align my work with my natural strengths and interests? Where would I like my life to be a year from now, both personally and professionally? 5 years from now? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:47 Discussion with Gisela Prunes Garcia 00:42:33 Mental Fuel 00:49:38 Listener Challenge 00:50:09 Wrap Up 👤About Gisela Prunes Garcia Gisel Prunes Garcia is a Human Resources professional from Barcelona who lived in the United States for the past 12 years. Her career in corporate started in Barcelona at Sara Lee Corporation, a Fortune 500 company in consumer goods, where she worked for a few years until she decided to move to California in 2012. She went on to explore different industries while building up a new life and career in a new culture, in a second language with no network. Her most recent experiences were with The Walt Disney Company in HR Production and Getty Images managing Creative and Editorial client groups. She specializes in finding opportunities that drive solutions to improve the employee experience and business results. Working in various industries and with highly creative folks allowed her to form unique perspectives and develop agility to analyze problems and find holistic and creative solutions. Follow Gisela on Instagram and LinkedIn. ⭐️Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. 🎵Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Ikson – Night Podington Bear – Buttom Mushrooms Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Alan Ellis – Sea Terms Cora Zea – Canon in Db Keys of Moon – Warm Memories JNGS – Lit ✍🏼Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Gisela. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Gisela: [03:53] Thank you for having me. I’m very excited. Joseph: We got a lot to talk about between your time in Spain and moving to the U.S., then eventually moving back to Spain. I was hoping we could start by just getting a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Could you just give us a quick snapshot? Gisela: [04:13] Right now, I think that I’m in one of the most convoluted times of my journey, one of those that are very gray and you are kind of lost in the mist and kind of stuck. Joseph: That’s very common for people to be at, that’s why we’re talking. What’s been confusing about this particular time? Gisela: [04:31] I’m going through a lot of change in a lot of areas of life. When more than one changes, it elevates the stress. And so, being able to manage that at this moment, it’s becoming a challenge and terrifying as well. Joseph: Just to set the scene here, could you just tell us, where are you right now and what are you up to right now, both personally and professionally? Gisela: [04:58] I’m in Spain, that’s where I’m from. I’m currently in Barcelona. I recently came here but I was in the U.S. for the past almost 13 years, but I’m originally from Spain so I just returned. I don’t know for how long, but I decided to come back here and spend more time with family recently, the last 2-3 months. Joseph: Can you describe the work that you are at least thinking about doing moving forward? I know you’re in the transition right now and still figuring it out. Gisela: [05:34] I’ve been working in corporate in my career. Since I was still living in college, I was already trying to figure out what I wanted to do when doing internships in companies. So since very, very early stage in my career, I’ve been in corporations, mostly big corporations. Right now, I’m taking a pause on everything career-wise to process this transition or the moment in life that I find myself in. I’m assessing and exploring too if I would like to become an entrepreneur and how would I do with that. Joseph: Let’s kind of go back in time a little bit. You mentioned you’re back in Spain now, and you had moved to the U.S. at the beginning of your career. I want to talk about what triggered you to move countries, but can we just start from the very beginning of your career? I know you’ve spent a lot of your career in the corporate world focused on HR. What got you interested in working in human resources at the very beginning? Gisela: [06:30] I was very compelled by the human resources work. But because in education really, I found that this is a field that it’s not very explored no matter what you studied. I felt like I really wanted to get a sense of it working and experiencing myself, what it is to working in each of the other departments. So very young, I got an internship at the time was Sara Lee, and I was based in Barcelona. Since the moment that I got into that company, and previously I already tried different fields, but experienced at this company, I loved it. I loved the combination of skill sets, working in a business, but also everything that had to do with talent management. I really loved it. I thought, “This could be my career.” Joseph: So from the start, you’re at Sara Lee, were you thinking that HR was the best fit for you? Were you pretty certain about that at the time? Did it feel right to you at the time? Gisela: [07:25] Yes, it did. I like to add different things. I was also interested in education, but I felt very comfortable in a business setting and in a business environment. I think that’s what made me stay and continue learning about it. I was doing well. I decided to explore all the different facets and areas of human resources. Joseph: Now, eventually, you made a pretty big decision to leave your home country, and eventually move to the U.S. I’d love to dive into this a little bit because I know it’s a major decision to relocate countries; as someone, myself, who’s done it. What triggered you to think about moving away from Spain and how did you choose the U.S. to be your destination? Gisela: [08:12] I wanted to expand my career and make it be international in my experience and learn about other countries. I knew that if I wanted to have like a career that’s like international, I would have to learn English and that was my pending signature. I’ve never been good at learning languages. I thought after a few years at Sara Lee, I was still in my early 20s and I felt myself very settled in Spain and there was something that I was like, “I need to explore.” I always been like this dedicated person; studying, working, having two jobs while studying, and I was already doing well. But too settled for my tastes. So I thought, “This is the moment. Let’s study English somewhere.” I just opened a map and literally decided, “Okay, where in the world I could go to learn English, that has a sunny location?” So that was my first indicator of like, it has to be like a sunny place. And then, I ended up going to San Diego. Joseph: San Diego. Gisela: [09:12] California. Joseph: Yes. good choice. How was your transition to the U.S.? What did you do when you first got there and how did you settle in? Gisela: [09:21] It was tough. At the beginning, I thought it was just going to be a vacation while I was in language school. So it’s a very different mindset than when you are actually settling to live in a new country. At the beginning, it was very fun. It was an amazing one of the best experiences that I ever had while I was in language school, 8 to 10 hours a day, really mastering. My English skills are trying because they were like pretty much non-existent. But then, things change when you are already like, “Let’s live here. Let’s try to start a career here.” Still with basic level of English, that was probably the toughest experience of my career. Especially in human resources since you need to know a lot in the employment law, the legislation. I would not finish the phone interview screenings. I was not able to because I had a lot of difficulty understanding them. Little by little, when that improved, the recruiters would tell me, “You have good experience in Europe. But here in the U.S., we require pretty like medium to high level of knowledge with employment laws; especially in California.” So learning all of that in a second language was tough. Joseph: You would eventually move into the corporate world, working in HR. You successfully secured your role. Out of curiosity, how did you overcome these barriers, the hesitation on the side of headhunters or recruiters or hiring managers when they were saying, “Okay. You got the qualifications, but you don’t have the localized experience that we’re looking for.” How did you overcome that? Gisela: [11:04] I think I cried a lot. And then, I went to HR courses that helped me. I bought a lot of books and I did a lot of self-study to the point where my whole house was full of papers. The walls of my house were full of papers, even in my bedroom, all over the place, so I could memorize some of the laws or words that for me were difficult to understand. It was a lot of that through those classes. And then, getting an internship, which at the time was unpaid. So for me, was a setback. Because in Spain, I was much better position. But it was very helpful to get that internship so I could practice, like a real experience. Then, studying aside. Joseph: So a combination of internships, and also your self-study, and scaling up. You were interning at the World Trade Center in San Diego, and then you ended up moving into the recruitment sector for a little bit of time. You would eventually land at Walt Disney Imagineering. How did you land that role? Because that’s obviously a large, well-established company. Just be curious, how did you manage to get your foot in the door with Walt Disney? Gisela: [12:20] Disney was always my first target. Since I was in the U.S., I started believing that could actually be possible for me to get a job there. I submitted close to 30 applications at Disney in the first years. Those applications never got a callback. But eventually, after I started building my experience and temping, which was a huge entrance for me in the U.S. market so I could switch from companies very quickly, learn fast, make an impact fast and every gig was better than the old one, and updating my LinkedIn. And so, after all of that, I received a call from a head-hunter who found me on LinkedIn for a potential two-month opportunity. Thanks, God that I returned that call because they even say it was Disney. It was like an email that didn’t look very appealing. But I always had that sense of curiosity that I thought, “Let me go to find out what this is.” When they said it was Disney, I couldn’t believe it. Joseph: And this was a temporary role initially. Gisela: [13:22] Yes. Joseph: What would you go on to do at Walt Disney Imagineering? I know you were there for just over a year, and then you’d eventually move on to the animation studios. Could you take us through your trajectory there at Walt Disney? Gisela: [13:34] That first call, it was for a temporary position for a very, very specific project. It was to assist the human resources department that was leading the construction of the Disneyland Resort in Shanghai. They interviewed me for that project. After that project ended, then I applied for another role at Imagineering as well in recruiting. And then, I got that role. But all of this, it was still like temporary contracts. I was like a place at Disney by a third party during the time that I was at Imagineering. Joseph: How did you then move from that temporary role into a more full-time role for Walt Disney Animation Studios, and then eventually the Walt Disney Studios? Gisela: [14:15] During that time at Disney, I was like, “I’m loving these. I’m loving this place.” I was just sinking in all the magic. I couldn’t even believe that I was still there after 1 year or like 2 years when it was only going to be two months. So I encouraged myself to, “Okay. Maybe this is possible. Maybe now, I can get a full-time job and be hired at Disney.” And so, at that time, I remember there were limited possibilities because there were not many positions open. But one of them was that I saw an opening at the Walt Disney Animation Studios. I just regularly applied through their portals, and I got an interview with Disney Animation Studios. I remember that I don’t think that I ever, in my life, prepared for anything better and more than I prepared for that interview with animation. Joseph: What do you remember about that interview? Gisela: [15:12] It was many interviews. It was so many interviews. Like one-on-one interviews, but there were also panel interviews with multiple people in the room. And so, those like more towards final stages made me like super nervous. I was like out of my mind with nervousness and anxiety. Joseph: You would eventually become a recruitment and outreach coordinator there at Walt Disney Animation Studios. Then, you became an HR specialist at the Walt Disney Studios. I know this a while back, but what did you like about your life in the corporate world there in the U.S. at the time? Gisela: [15:45] I was thriving in it. I loved all the challenges, and there are always challenges that come with working in corporate and a lot of complexities. But I found myself thriving on it, and I was always so hungry for learning. I always found something that would be fascinating for me, for my own development, and for my own learning. I was very comfortable with the environment, especially working in a creative setting. That was very inspiring for me since I do have a personality that is always also involved in like [unintelligible 16:20], and that was for myself. And so, I felt like I connected well also with that environment at that time. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to just stay at Walt Disney? And definitely, did it cross your mind to explore other companies, other opportunities? Where were you at in terms of your professional interests at the time, staying versus exploring something else? Gisela: [16:48] Especially the first years when I was at Disney, I was like, “Would I want to ever go somewhere else?” I could see how easily is to get comfortable. It was a very difficult and a struggle to not attach your personal value or identity. They, in such a big brand, in such a big name. And so, every time that I changed the position at Disney, it was a struggle. For example, leaving animation. It was like, “Am I crazy? I love this place. Why would I leave?” But on the other side, you have that other voice of prioritizing growth at a certain moment in your career and especially in my field, which is very interesting to me, personally, seeing different environments and departments and teams. It was that decision of, “Okay. I’m going to jump,” even though I always thought, “Maybe I’ll regret jumping, but I’m still going to do it.” It was that constant struggle to check in with yourself and then just do it because there is always a different learning on the other side. Joseph: I was giving a talk a few weeks ago, and somebody came up to me after my talk. It was on achieving your career goals. She works at Google and she’s been there for years, I think over a decade. She asked me, is there a problem to stay at a company for a really long time? Like, does that start to look strange from an external standpoint? But I guess, what I was thinking when I heard that question was, sometimes, I myself, feel like if I’ve been doing something for too long, just the duration of time starts to make me wonder if I should do something else. I’ve always just wondered, is that like an unnecessary pressure that we put on ourselves to constantly be pushing forward to the next challenge? Do you have any thoughts? Again, I’m going back to your time as you started to wrap up your time at Walt Disney, and we’ll eventually talk about your most recent role in the moment. Gisela: [18:47] Personal life circumstances also play a huge factor. Maybe the fact that I was a foreigner in a foreign country, without my family over there, maybe that will get me a little bit more impulse than maybe somebody who makes different decisions based on their lives in circumstances or is looking for more stability. They feel like it’s many different factors. But I agree that, sometimes, we just put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and it depends on the discipline as well. There are certain disciplines that once you secure a really good position in a certain industry where maybe those jobs are more limited, maybe it makes sense that the person tends to want to stay longer. But maybe for other disciplines, you could benefit from seeing different environments, that also is a point of decision-making for someone to be jumping around I think. Joseph: How did you make your decision to eventually leave Disney and move on to Getty Images then? Gisela: [19:46] To me, leaving Disney, I felt like Frodo dropping the ring in Mordor. It was very difficult to put down my batch of that company. But I really wanted to see a different idea within the entertainment and media industry. I was looking for a very specific type of role that was more strategic, and I was looking for different characteristics. And I thought after almost 8 years of my run in Disney, that was a good point to move forward. And then, it took me a while. I interviewed a lot, many companies. Like, the companies were interviewing me, but I was interviewing more of those companies because I had a lot of clarity in what I wanted to find. So it took a while, but eventually, Getty came along with a very interesting role and had most of what I was looking for in my next role, and I accepted the job offer with them. Joseph: Things are going pretty well for you in the United States. You move to San Diego. You land a couple of internships. You’re working at one of the most well-known companies in the world, Walt Disney. You eventually move on to Getty Images. You land the role that sounds like was the perfect fit for you regarding your next move. When did you start thinking about moving back to Spain? Gisela: [21:14] The last few years since the pandemic. The pandemic became very hard to manage when you are so many miles from your family, and there was a change of paradigm and a change of a lot of things. I feel like since the pandemic, I had in the back of my mind the possibility of spending some time in Europe, even if it was not necessarily Spain. But because I left it so young and I have grown so much, I always had that thing of like, “Should I explore? Should I take some time to recognize Europe, and even discover places that I didn’t have the chance to when I was so young?” Joseph: Was there a moment when you made your decision; “Okay. I’m going to leave Getty behind, going to leave Los Angeles behind,” which is where you were based at the time, “and I’m going to move back to Barcelona.” Do you remember the moment when you decided that? Gisela: [22:07] Yes. I think it was last year, actually. Los Angeles; I always felt so compelled by the city, so I would have those thoughts of going back on my mind, but I would not act on it because I was doing well there, I had my job, I was happy with Getty Images. Actually, I will always remember it was award season in Los Angeles. It was between the months of February and March that I actually was with the team that I was supporting creative and editorial at the Oscars. Later, a week after, I was all of a sudden in the hospital in one of those life moments where your health all of a sudden goes downhill, and then you need to reassess things, and then you need to start listening. The body puts you in a different direction all of a sudden. So that was like a breaking point for me to reassess, “Okay. What do I do now that I have a new life situation?” Joseph: If you don’t mind me asking, Gisela, what was happening with your health at the time? What was the reason for having to go to the hospital? Gisela: [23:12] I’ve been struggling for the 2-3 years with a lot of symptoms that nobody was able to pin down where those were coming from, even though they affected me a lot but I was able to manage. All of a sudden, during that time, I started experiencing stronger and stronger symptoms. Until one day to the other, I got super sick. And then, finally, they were able to diagnose that I was celiac. But I have been asymptomatic for a long, long time, which as far as I know is not as common. Usually, celiac shows some sort of symptoms even if they are not digestive. But in my case, my body showed absolutely nothing until I was like very severely Ill where my digestive system was not properly functioning. And then, you even get like this nutrition. So it was something at that time, very severe for what it could look like on the surface, like a condition that’s not familiar, right? With that condition that is like, “Oh, you stop eating gluten,” and that’s it. But sometimes, if it’s caused more damage, it’s no longer simple. So I had to really put a pause on everything at that point. Joseph: I don’t know a tremendous amount about celiac. I know some people in my life who’ve had it, and it involves gluten intolerance. But I also understand that if you don’t discover it until later in life it can actually wreak some havoc and damage on your system. I guess it’s good that you caught it. When you did, I guess as you’re lying there in the hospital, what was running through your head when you thought about your career looking forward in the United States versus perhaps exploring returning to Europe? Gisela: [24:54] First of all, there was a phase of depression and anger. Like, I even told my doctor first before I could even think of anything else, it’s like, “You are wrong. I’m not celiac. Like, I’m from Spain and I’m made of red. What are you talking about?” I was at first upset with everything, right? Especially, in a moment where you are in your career and doing well, it’s like, “Oh, no.” Joseph: And then, how did you come to terms with that? I guess I’m thinking about the stages of grieving. I guess the first couple are, first of all, denial, and then some anger that you’re talking about. How did you come to accept that maybe you did need to make a change? Gisela: [25:31] It took me a few months. I’m sure many people would relate to this, but we tend to take everything on ourselves. Like, “I can do it. I’ve been doing it for like 12 years here and alone, and I’m alive, and I’ve gone through so many things, so this is just one more. This is not going to stop me or affect me in any way, right?” So I try to act normal and overcome it on my own like I always done. But this time, it was not working. This time, the more that I was trying to push, the body was slapping me back. I’m fine one day, and then I’m more sick the other. That’s for months until I had a discussion with my supervisor. I was very transparent about what I was going through. I received great support as well. I finally assessed the situation and decided, “Okay. Maybe this is the time to take a pause, find the keys of what works for me until I recover, until I get better, and I find my new habits.” And then, I rather do it from Spain, spend more time with my family, to connect with Europe, and take this time as a creative exploration with myself. Joseph: What’s it been like for you the past couple of months now that you have been back in Spain? Gisela: [26:49] It’s been scary. I never experienced this before. It’s a constant terror that you are, all of a sudden, first of all, not attached to any big brands. So here it goes again. Now, I’m solo. My name is not attached to those brands anymore. Like, you don’t have a paycheck coming through. The list could go on and on of terrifying things that are happening right now. But I think that the worst is not having a clear direction of what you are going to hit next, which is kind of the first time that happened to me. Because I’m very analytical. I always have a plan A, B, and C. And so, right now, I can have an idea of the things that I want to explore, but that is not that specific goal that I need to hit. And so, that creates a lot of anxiety and it’s just terrifying of being in a situation where you’re trying to figure out and explore and get to enjoy this time without the anxiety hitting you over. Joseph: This is I guess, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with you, Gisela. Because I think so often on these kinds of shows, we talk with people during the before and the after of their career change journey. And so, you get a glimpse of what they were doing before, and then you kind of get the glimpse into how everything is now worked out really nicely in the end. What I think is very interesting is catching people when they’re in the middle of it and they haven’t figured it out because that’s where a lot of listeners are when they listen to this show. You’re right, you’re talking about some things that I know I’ve struggled with myself, where it’s the balance between just enjoying the downtime versus feeling pressured to uncover and identify exactly what you want to do next. I guess I’d be really interested to hear, how about the readjustment going back to Spain and being back in your home country. As you know, I’m from the United States. I live in the UK now. I’ve always wondered what it would be like if I were to then move back to the U.S. after all this time of being away. Can you give a glimpse into what that adjustment has been like for you? And then, we’ll talk about some of your professional explorations in a moment. Gisela: [28:49] I don’t know if I would be able to answer this question yet because it’s been so recently for me. While I’m trying to recover a bit of my health, I’ve been so swimming between madness of logistics and administrative things that I need to do and start a life over. It involves so much that I haven’t grasped it yet. It’s like I have not really landed. It’s the way I feel it. All of a sudden, I found myself putting things on my agenda, on my calendar, of things that I need to do one and functioning the same way that I used to. And so, I think that training my brain, it’s what I’m mostly focusing on as my only responsibility to be able to really make an impact for myself during this time. But being here, it feels very strange. It feels like it’s a different person that came here and I don’t even have a sense of belonging like I used to, which, at first, you get sad about it, but at the same time, I think that it’s beautiful because you have grown. And now, you are more connected to different cultures and places. But I agree, it’s not often spoken and there is so much that goes into it. Joseph: I know what you mean about feeling a bit out of place, even though it’s your home country. Gisela: [30:07] Yeah. Joseph: But when you’ve been away, you change a little bit and you see another way of living and another way of being. And then, going back, it can just feel a little bit surreal. I always have these weird out-of-body experiences when I go back to the United States. Where I feel like I’m this different person back in this environment that used to be very familiar to me. And now, it feels very foreign. Gisela: [30:31] Yeah, it feels like that. But I’m also noticing something interesting. I realize I catch my brain always thinking, “Oh, I live here or I live there,” right? It’s like you have to pick sides. I’m here now, and this is what I need. But then, you start realizing it’s like, “No, I’m still from LA.” LA is also like a home. It’s just that my base right now, it’s here. But LA will be my second base. And so, we try to compartmentalize everything. And also, telling my brain and training my brain new things and new concepts of my new identity and my new lifestyle. I feel like this is helping me a little bit as well. Joseph: The other thing you mentioned was this loss of an association with a big brand. I’ve been there myself, where you’re working for a well-established company, whether it’s Getty or Disney. How’s that been for you? I know you alluded to it earlier. But how do you reconcile now not being attached to those brands; and yet, it’s still a big part of your professional history? Gisela: [31;31] Realistically, and full transparency, and honestly, it would have been way easier for me and more comfortable doing this interview. For example, when I was at Disney or at the Getty, with a name attached, and then you just talked about it. And getting out of the world and saying, “This is me. And yes, it’s my experience. But right now, I’m in this stage and my life is a mess.” I find this much more tricky. Joseph: I’ve been there before myself. I feel very naked. Like I feel like I’ve got nothing to say about myself. Just because I’m not currently working for a well-known organization. I feel very exposed. It’s a strange feeling. I know you’re still figuring this out, but are you thinking that you want to work independently or that you want to return to the corporate world? Or is that still a question that you’re wrestling with right now? Gisela: [32:20] I’m still trying to figure this out, and I’m allowing myself some space to do that. I enjoyed working in the corporate world mostly. I would definitely return once I recover and I think it’s the right time. But I want to take the chance and advantage of this situation where I have schedule restrictions because I’m prioritizing right now myself and exploring what would be like being an entrepreneur. If I could work solo and bring my expertise to the world in a different way, and see if this is something that I would like to do. Luckily, here in Barcelona, and this just happened recently, I applied to one of those programs to help develop entrepreneurs. I submitted a project and it got selected. And so, right now, I’m going through this, starting this program for entrepreneurs to develop a project. I’m trying to see if this is something I would even like and explore that creative space for that purpose. Joseph: There’s a lot of upside to having this transition where you’ve got some space and some head space to think about what exactly you want to do, which is a huge benefit of a transition. Before I talk about and finish up with some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I would be curious to hear if you could pinpoint or put your finger on, what’s the most difficult part of being in between jobs when you don’t exactly know what you want to do next? Gisela: [33:53] Controlling your thoughts. Or at least, being aware of the thoughts that hit because they are driven by our fears. And gaining awareness of that and turning those thoughts around, for me, it’s the signature that honestly, I’m still failing. If I’m starting a podcast, for example, I want to talk about my podcast because I’m afraid for others to listen to me. Now, I’m adding this entrepreneurial program and you have to start doing a market analysis. I’m like, yes, but I’m terrified of going to speak to people because that seems like things are materializing and putting things to the world. It’s just there is a lot of mental load that we carry. That, to me, this is much more difficult than developing a business plan or developing anything else. It’s just switching the thoughts that we have because of our beliefs and because of society that has done a lot of damage to all of us. Joseph: I have a lot of internal chatter, I would say. Compared to the average person. Like, I lay awake at night and I think about stuff or I think about, “Could I be doing things differently?” or “Should I have approached something differently?” “Should I take on this new project or not?” You’re right. I think a lot of it is just controlling those internal voices and quieting them a little bit because it can get really noisy up there. The last thing I wanted to talk with you about — before we wrap up with what you are thinking about pursuing right now. I was speaking at an event last night. Someone came up to me afterwards and they were asking me about where I see well-being and health fitting into my professional priorities, which I thought was an interesting question. I was just wondering how do you think about that. Like, how do you think about where well-being and health and your own physical fitness? How does that fit into your overall priorities right now? Gisela: [35:43] That’s something that’s so critical to keep in mind; one’s health. Unfortunately, we don’t always put that on our priority list. But, to me, this is number 1. So anything that I do needs to work around that first priority. Not the other way around of me trying to adjust to X or Y in able to achieve Z. It’s like, no, everything now needs to — at least, for a few months, needs to support my health physically and my mental health; like both, and it’s not easy. Sad to say that sometimes, this can even be a privilege in some way, depending on one’s personal circumstances. So I’m very appreciative of the possibility of being able to do this, even if it’s just a few months. Joseph: Is there something that you wished you had discovered earlier on in your career that you have now discovered? Having gone through this transition and being in the middle of this transition. Gisela: [36:43] I got to experience first-hand that anything is possible. And sometimes, even if we have a plan, if we are open and not very close-minded to a specific plan, sometimes, we can even have surprises and life can take us into something beyond even our expectations. To me, staying curious, always alert, we can spot opportunities that if we are not open or with that mindset, we could miss very easily. I’ve seen that over and over with myself; also, in my surroundings. Joseph: Is there something in particular that you have learned about yourself as you have transitioned back home to Barcelona that you feel is important to share? Gisela: [37:33] I traded a lot of comfort for learning. So I have a full back of learnings that I still feel like some of them, honestly, I have not even finished processing yet because I’ve been on the go and also in a survival mode for like a very long time to craft my career and my journey. Like, right now, it’s a good moment to integrate those learnings. But I think that one of them is that, in my case, I experienced and I’ve seen that we are stronger than we believe we are, and that really goes a long way. Determination and persistence, all of these are clichés. But these are formulas that do work in most cases. And then, there is this conversation of, how much you need to push into something because, sometimes, it’s also a very good skill to have knowing until when we can push. Joseph: Any advice you would give to your younger self, now that you’re back in Barcelona, figuring out the next stage of your career? Gisela: [38:37] Putting more emphasis on my mental health in terms of managing anxiety. Learning about what anxiety is, and how it plays a role within each of us. As well as fear. Identify as early as I could, my fears. I wish I would have done that sooner. In general, something that we always forget as well, is to understand our emotions and really work on all that. Part of that, at the end of the day, encompasses mental health. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing right now, Gisela. Could you just tell me a little bit more about “Creative Career Thinking,” which is the personal brand that you’re thinking about expanding, and perhaps writing about a little bit more? I know it’s still in its early days. Gisela: [39:23] “Creative Career Thinking” is a brand that I started many years ago just to kind of try to separate the identity that we talked about our [voice 39:31] and work in corporate. And then, the engagements, or our [voice 39:37]like, or any activities that you do outside the corporate world. So I always enjoy giving talks and speaking in classes or conferences about career development. So, I’ve been doing sporadic activities for the last few years, and it’s still currently ongoing. Something that I have a lot of fun with. Currently, I’m finishing a book. That’s been a passion project for me about networking that speaks to the creative audience. So this has been something that I’ve been doing aside my jobs. And now, that I have this time, I’m thinking if I should continue growing this brand. Although, I’m starting to think about a separate business plan. So like I said, my life is very messy. I don’t know what string to pull, but it’s like a part of different ingredients. I’m going to find out. Maybe in a few months, we’ll talk again and I’ll tell you which string did I pull. Joseph: I think these things are all a bit of a work in progress. And until you test the waters with it, you never really know if it’s something that is going to be fruitful, if it’s something you’re going to enjoy, whether it’s something that’s going to really energize you. So I guess, yeah, all you can do is just try a whole bunch of different things and see what sticks sometimes. Gisela: [40:55] And I’m also missing the corporate world already. But I’m trying to, again, tell my brain, “Are you missing it because it’s your habit?” Like, just really take the time and quiet that voice that always goes to our comfort. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Gisela, for telling us more about your former life as an HR professional in the corporate world, your international moves, and also your return to Barcelona. I wish you the very best of luck with “Creative Career Thinking,” and figuring out the next steps in your career. And also, of course, getting better and taking care of your health along the way. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today, and hope to cross paths with you again soon. Gisela: [41:37] Thank you again. I hope so. It’s been a pleasure.

Today marks our 100th episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast!🎉. For the past seven years, we’ve shared the personal stories of people around the world who have reinvented their careers, and today, I’m thrilled to have Anne Tumlinson, CEO of ATI Advisory and founder of Daughterhood, join us again on the show. Anne was the very first guest I interviewed for this show over seven years ago before it even launched, and today, we’re going to talk about how her career and life have evolved since then. She’ll share her reflections on her journey as a founder turned CEO, the complex dynamics of growing your own organization, and the impact changes in her personal life have had on her outlook on life, career, and her own perspectives. During a special Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll summarize my top takeaways from the nearly 100 guests I’ve featured on this show, including a montage of key highlights to help you understand the dynamics, challenges, and upside of changing career paths to pursue work you find truly meaningful. 💡Key Career Change Insights Consistently showing up is half the battle when embarking on any major career endeavor. Your unique collection of gifts, talents, skills, and interests can fuel you to do work you find truly meaningful. You just have to open yourself up to fully tapping into them. Even when you’re building momentum and achieving “success,” still questioning whether you’re completely on the right track is normal. 📒Resources Mentioned In the book Great By Choice by Jim Collins, he describes the 20-mile-march concept. Past Career Relaunch® episodes mentioned: Creating Steady Progress with Anne Tumlinson– episode 3 Deciding What Matters with Bruce Daisley– episode 26 Giving Yourself Room to Explore with Audrey Lemargue– episode 9 Embracing Uncertainty with Stephen Satterfield– episode 15 Setting Realistic Expectations with Chinwe Oneaygoro– episode 59 Creating a New Image with Deepak Shukla– episode 51 Letting Go with Karen Hing– episode 52 Doing What Excites You with Alex Trochut– episode 56 Being Your Own #1 Fan with Sandeep Johal– episode 20 Taking Care of Yourself with Erika Russi– episode 77 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to decide what choice you feel you could make for your career that you can be proud of. One that you’re confident you can look back on 10 years, 20 years from now, and not regret. What matters most to you right now during this chapter of your life and career? And what step will you take to honor this? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:04:53 – Chat with Anne Tumlinson 00:48:39 – Mental Fuel® 00:59:32 – Listener Challenge 00:59:56 – Listener Thank You 01:01:59 – Wrap Up 👤About Anne Tumlinson, Founder & CEO of ATI Advisory and Daughterhood Anne Tumlinson and I have known each other for over 20 years. As one of the very first managers I had after I dropped out of medical school, she played an instrumental role in helping me navigate my first big career transition in my early 20s. She was also the very first person I ever interviewed for this show seven years ago, and she continues to possess a wealth of personal and professional insights that I and many of our listeners have found so useful. She currently advises the nation’s top public and private leaders in healthcare as the Founder and Board Chair of Daughterhood, a non-profit national community that connects family caregivers with each other for support and information. She also serves on the non-profit board for Mary’s Center, an FQHC, and the Board of Directors for Bluestone Physician Services and Harmony @ Home. Anne is a member of the National Academy of Social Insurance and was named an Influencer in Aging by Next Avenue. Anne spent her early career working in government, first in the office of Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and then at the Office of Management and Budget. She joined the private consulting firm Avalere Health in 2000, growing and leading the firm’s provider practice and developing its first business intelligence product. 💬Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. 🎵Music Credits Thanks to Reeve for producing the music for this special 100th episode and to Electrocardiogram for composing the Career Relaunch® podcast theme music. ✍️Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, hello again, Anne. I am very excited to have you back on the Career Relaunch Podcast. Welcome back to the show. Anne: [05:00] Thank you. It’s exciting to be back. Joseph: The last time we spoke was a few weeks ago actually over dinner when I was in D.C., so we did manage to catch up a little bit. Before that, the last time we recorded a conversation between the two of us was way back in 2016. I’m not sure if you remember this, but you were the very first person I interviewed for the show. Anne: [05:24] I do. Joseph: Because the podcast hadn’t even launched. It did eventually launch with your episode being one of the first. Exactly seven years ago in September 2016. Anne: [05:34] It was thrilling because you did such a good job with it, and you made that beautiful illustration. Joseph: You were featured in the trailer, yes. Anne: [05:44] That was pretty neat to see that come to life so creatively. Joseph: Probably, the show may not have happened without you. Just to go back in time. So now, this is now the 100th episode. Anne: [05:54] Wow. Joseph: Yeah. I thought it’d be very fitting to have the very first person I interviewed on the show to come back and to share your story again, just to check in on how things are going. Anne: [06:05] That’s awesome. We’ve really been on this journey together. Joseph: Definitely. This is going to be a little bit of a different chat from other episodes. Because I guess the idea here is for us to have a bit of a conversation about how things are going for you and for me, and seven years after that chat we had back in 2016. At the time, on your end, you had just launched off on your own. You had just begun developing the concept of Daughterhood. You were a solopreneur. And now, you’re a CEO overseeing a whole team at ATI Advisory. For me, I was about three years into running my own business. Beginning my shift from one-on-one coaching to more content creation and public speaking. I wasn’t a father then, I am now. Your kids were living at home. They’re in a completely different phase now. So, a lot of change for both of us. I was hoping that we could organize this chat in the past, present, and future, where you were, what you’ve experienced along the way, and what’s next for you. Maybe you should go first here. Let’s just go back in time. Can you try to mentally transport yourself back to 2016? What do you recall you were focused on at the time? Maybe we should start with the personal. What was your family life like in 2016? What was going on with you personally? And then, we’ll get to the professional in a second. Anne: [07:23] In 2016, I called myself a single mom. I was co-parenting with my ex-husband, so it wasn’t I was in it all by myself. Certainly, I was the head of the household that I live in and the sole earner with two teenage children, 16 and 13. We were looking at colleges for my oldest child. Now, she has made her way all the way through college. She has graduated, and she is fully employed. My youngest is in college. So, I’m in a really different place in parenting. And, I got married in 2018. Joseph: Do I have this right? Your separation had not happened that long before we recorded our episode in 2016? Do I have that right? Anne: [08:15] Yeah. I separated in 2011 and was divorced in 2012. If you’ve never been through anything like that, this may sound weird. If you have, it will ring true. It was a 15-year marriage. It takes a long time to reset from that and get to your new normal. I definitely wasn’t quite in it yet. I was still trying to figure out who I was in the world without a spouse. When you’re married, it’s really hard to imagine just how much your identity starts to absorb being in that partnership. I was like, “Who am I in my personal world, and who am I in my professional world?” In the middle of all that, I quit my job and started my own enterprise, so to speak, which had two parts to it. One was supporting myself through independent consulting, business-to-business. And then, the other was developing this platform. I didn’t really know what it was going to become, but I knew I wanted to start to form a relationship with family caregivers who were taking care of their parents and have an interchange of ideas across this transom. That’s them in their day-to-day experiences, and me with my expertise, and for people who are listing my expertise as in aging and health policy. Joseph: How did you get interested in this aging topic? I know we haven’t talked a lot about your own parents that much. I am curious how did this end up being your focus. Anne: [09:56] It’s so funny you asked that question. Just as a quick aside, my kids are now in their 20s. They and their friends are all in the very beginning stages of, “What do I want to do with my life?” I have a lot of 20-somethings standing in my kitchen. One of them was there last night at 11 o’clock, asking me. He’s pre-med. He’s like, “How did you end up here, in doing what you’re doing?” They’re always interested in that story. He just asked me that last night. I was always drawn to the phase of life that is the last phase of life. I can’t explain why. Even as an undergraduate, I did my work or my psychology undergraduate degree on the last phase of life and aging. And then, my very first job out of college was on Capitol Hill working as a congressional aid to Congressman John Lewis from Atlanta, Georgia, who was on the Aging Committee and then on a health subcommittee. And so, I was able to jump right into that and I loved it. I love policy because I like the challenge of all of the different systemic parts and how do you think about systems. I also really like, in reason I started Daughterhood was because I felt I was missing that — you can’t really work on a system we don’t understand how it’s affecting people on the ground, on a day-to-day basis. Joseph, you were right there with me in 2014, when I was going through all of this. Just really in the heart of the struggle, so to speak. You held my hand and walked me across the bridge into entrepreneurship. Joseph: I remember that. That was a surreal moment for me. For people who don’t know this, you were my manager actually. You’re one of my very first managers I think, in full-time employment for me. This is after I dropped out of medical school. I was trying to figure out my life. I was one of those kids “who were kind of in your kitchen,” who was trying to figure out what to do next. Anne: [12:11] Yeah. Joseph: And then, we started working together professionally when I was a coach. I had just started off in 2013, so about a year into that. You’re one of my first clients, which was weird. Anne: [12:24] I know. Joseph: Kind of flip for me to be in the role of coach for who had been one of my coaches early on. That was really rewarding and really just a special, unique relationship I think that we’ve had. Anne: [12:41] It is. It was for me as well. The second we started to talk, you’d call me I think just to let me know. I was like, “Oh. Oh, this is what I need. Could you help me?” Joseph: I remember sitting in your office when I was your direct report in Washington, D.C. I remember you telling me about your kids at the time. This one, I was in my early 20s. And so, another major change I think for you, Anne, was in 2016, both your kids were at home. Anne: [13:13] Yeah. Now, they’ve grown up. Joseph: Where are they now, and how has that change been for you? Anne: [13:19] In 2016, my oldest was just looking at colleges. And now, she’s fully graduated from college and is in her first professional role working at the National Institutes for Mental Health, doing work she really likes. That’s a small miracle really, when you think about how hard it is to find work right out of college. She actually still lives with me because she’s saving money. All good Gen Z’ers have to do I think in this day and age. And then, my son is a rising junior at Emory University. He lives there or he’s getting ready to go on foreign study. My house feels full right now because it’s the summer and he’s home. And so, even though they’re here though, my relationship with them is completely different because they’re adults. I still see them. We spend time together. But, I only get involved in their lives when they ask me to. That’s drawing all these new boundaries, trying to figure out the relationship, and how to be a parent to an adult, that has been mind-blowing. Joseph: That must be surreal. I’ve got a 5-year-old daughter, coming up on 6. So, I guess roughly maybe the age of Grace when you and I worked together in D.C. I’ve always been curious what’s it like the day after, in your case, both of your kids are off to college and your house is empty. Do you remember that day? Anne: [14:52] Yeah. I had a much tougher time when my oldest left. Because that was the moment when I was going from one phase of life to another. When my son left, I felt more prepared for it. Honestly, I enjoyed it. I got remarried in 2018. Just about the time that my son — he lived here for a couple of years after I got remarried, and then he went off to college. So, it was enjoyable for me to be able to be in my home alone with my new husband. There was a lot of relationships still to discover and enjoy, getting to know each other in that environment. That was a nice distraction from having the bittersweetness of watching your children leave you, which is what they’re supposed to do, but it is still — bittersweet is the only word I can think of to describe it. It’s an incredible privilege to watch them go out. It’s thrilling to watch them go discover themselves, and go through all of the exciting things that they get to go through as young adults out in the world but it is also heartbreaking because your relationship with them is not the same. They don’t need you as much. The intimacy is to a certain extent diminished. That beautiful intimacy that you have with a 5-year-old, where you’re in there still in that magical, that 5-year-old is still in the world of magic. Joseph: Yes. Anne: [16:36] I will say this for all of you who have youngsters is that, what helped me a lot was that I had no regrets. I had worked very hard and I devoted myself a lot to my career. I also really had done everything I wanted to do with my children. I read all the books. We went on all the trips. We had all of the movie nights and the popcorn nights. I felt, as sad as I was, there wasn’t anything that I could have done differently to have gotten any less sad. Joseph: I know. Anne: [17:17] Life is just full of these, as now that I’m 56, just full of these transitions after transition after transition after transition. Just when you think something is one way, it changes. One other fact that in these last seven years is that also my parents went from being incredibly independent to my father getting very sick and died. And now, my mom is in her 80s and living in an independent living community. My kids are transitioning. My parents are transitioning. My business was transitioning. So, not boring. Joseph: I know that there’s a lot in there to unpack. I mean, this is a career show, so I would be interested in — Anne: [17:58] Yes. Joseph: Before we talk about the evolution of everything that’s happened to you over time, can you remember in 2016 just factoring in everything you just mentioned about the difference that was happening? Your kids are getting older, you have come out of one relationship, you’re just starting your business. What were some of your biggest concerns at the time? If you can remember back to 2016. Anne: [18:21] I was just concerned about paying the bills. That’s not the only one, but I think one of my primary concerns was money, just money. I was scared. I didn’t have any visibility into whether or not the business would be there. Maybe there’d be three or four months. Anybody who’s done consulting knows how this is, or professional services of any kind. You will have this onslaught of work. If you’re on your own, you have to do it all yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there won’t be any work. Instead of just enjoying the moment of break, you’re worrying. Joseph: You’re panicked. Anne: [19:03] About where that business is. You’re either freaking out because you worry about execution risk, or you’re freaking out because you’re worrying about whether or not there’s enough business. By the way, that has not changed. Joseph: Right. I think that does happen. Anne: [19:19] I’m still there. Joseph: I still have that a lot. I’m now a decade into doing this work. I wouldn’t say it keeps me up at night, but I definitely have this productive paranoia. I don’t even know if it’s productive. Sometimes, this is unproductive paranoia about what would happen if all the clients I now work with, what if they all went away, which a version of that happened to me in 2020 with speaking engagements. And so, I think as a business owner, you never take for granted, the business that you do have coming in. One thing I know that has really changed for you since we spoke was, at the time, you were a solopreneur and you’re, as you described, thinking where the next client’s going to come from. And now, you have a team of over 20, I think. Is it like 20? Anne: [20:04] Thirty. Joseph: Thirty now. Okay. You got 30 people you’re managing, whom you’ve hired. How did you make that decision? At what point did you feel like, “I need to bring somebody on”? Anne: [20:17] I was doing a lot of work that I am actually not that good at or efficient. I felt like wasn’t great service to the client. So, they’re paying me a rate that is encompassing of all of my expertise and my time in the planet, and I’m spending hours dealing with the spreadsheet or a PowerPoint slide deck. I contemplated a couple different models, it’s not uncommon to contract some of those things out through a 1099 relationship, or a contracting relationship. But, to get the constancy and consistency in service and delivery, I wasn’t that I thought, “Oh, this has to grow by some amount.” It was more that I felt if I didn’t do that, I was always going to be in a a scarcity mindset. I don’t want to be in a scarcity mindset. I want to be in a, “We have plenty of resources. We can do this. We’ve got what we need.” And so, there’s also the serendipity of their own. Then, there’s this person who is looking for a job, and I’ve worked with her before, and I knew what she could do. I was like, “She could really help me.” Another very interesting thing happened. Because obviously, if you’re worrying about money, and then you’re hiring somebody. Joseph: You’ve got to pay these people. Anne: [21:40] Now, you got payroll. I had a mentor who was a very wealthy individual, and he’d taken an interest in the work that we were doing in my career, which was nice. He called me and he said, “I will be your safety net for a while. So, if you need some money you can come to me.” What he said was — this is the awesome thing. He goes, “I don’t want you to have any excuse not to do this.” Joseph: Wow. Anne: [22:19] By the way, P.S. I could not get a line of credit at the bank. He was going to be my bank. And so, I took it and it worked out great. And then, in 2017, I hired a second person. Then, in 2018 was a slow year. It was a tough year. I thought, “This might not work.” I think we even talked about this in 2016, and that’s normal. Joseph: I’m still solo. I do contract out with independent freelancers to help me with this show and some other things, but I don’t have any employees. One of the challenging things for me is just my bandwidth, and that is because I’m by myself. I have been resistant to bringing anybody else on board. And so, I’ve just dealt with that scarcity that you have mentioned, and just sometimes turning away stuff. Anne: [23:08] That’s okay. Joseph: But, yeah, it’s a trade-off. It’s a trade-off. Anne: [23:09] Yeah. That’s exactly right. Some businesses are meant to scale the way that I’m scaling, and some businesses are meant to be sort of the individual level. Everybody makes a big deal out of scaling, “Scaling is everything,” it’s not. It’s just not. It comes with an enormous number of headaches. I will say — and this is where I think you and I are quite different. A theme in my whole life has been, a little bit of a leaping without looking. Joseph: Just go for it, yeah. Anne: [23:44] Yeah. I get impatient with the analytic piece of things. Whereas, you have so much patience and you’ll look and consider all angles. At a certain point, I’m like, “I don’t have the patience.” I can’t play chess or checkers. I don’t have the patience for that level of anticipating every move. I just go for it. The outcome of that is that sometimes there’s wonderful rewards on their side. But also, that I end up going, “I can’t believe I did that.” Joseph: It actually worked out. Anne: [24:20] I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but here I am. Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about what you have observed, and maybe what has been on your mind lately after thinking about the evolution of your life, and also your business over the past seven years. What do you feel is going really well right now for you? And then, we’ll talk about the challenges in a second. What’s working and what’s going on for you right now? Anne: [24:46] Taking my life as a totality right now, I feel very solid. My mother, my mother-in-law are going through their last stage of life in their 80s. My children are going through a time of change. I feel I’m well-equipped, mentally and physically, to be solid. Be the solid center of their lives and my life, and it feels great. From a business perspective, what I have discovered is that I am really enjoying working on building a business. As opposed to working in the business, I very much still enjoy consulting. I enjoy the clients and the work that we’re doing in the subject matter. But also, the learning. Not just learning about business, but learning about I’m always motivated by the challenge of stepping into the role of CEO. I had to actually write down what my job was and post it on my board because I didn’t know. What does a CEO do? I had to think about, “Oh, I’m in charge of setting the strategy in the direction for the company, finding the resources people in talent, and solving the big problems.” Joseph: That’s a good list. Anne: [26:13] Those are my big three. Trusting people that you hire and not getting too into the weeds with their work and what they’re doing. And so, it’s been great. I don’t know that I’ve nailed it, but I think that it is exciting to be able to grow. It’s exciting to find out what you’re capable of. I think it’s iterative, you’re not capable until you put yourself in the position, and then you learn how to be capable. And then, you’re like, “Oh god!” Joseph: Yes. You almost have to do it. Anne: [26:44] I think a lot of people wait for the capability to come before they attempt it, but that doesn’t work that way. Joseph: Yeah. It’s very chicken or egg, isn’t it? Because you want to have the skills before you go out there if you don’t embarrass yourself. At the same time, you have to go out there and do it to develop the skill set. I remember, early on, I think I gave a TED Talk. It was in 2014, and that was one of the first talks I gave, which got me thinking about shifting from doing more one-on-one coaching to more public speaking. It wasn’t my best talk, but it got me out there and it got me starting to think about that, to experience what it’s like to do that. It is very hard to decide what’s going to be my first move in this particular space and when will I feel comfortable doing it. You’re right. I think it does need to happen just before you feel completely ready. Otherwise, you’ll never do it. Anne: [27:39] One hundred percent. There was a moment in my life very, very early on when I learned to overcome that feeling of shame or embarrassment for putting yourself out there. It was a similar formative moment in my life. Actually, to do with my dad and the advice he gave me in a social situation. It was very formative. I realized, “Oh, you can survive it. You can fall on your face in front of a lot of people and be fine.” That lodged itself in my subconscious. And so, I have been more willing than I think most people to have a more public failure, which isn’t to say that I don’t absolutely dread it. Joseph: Yeah, it’s not fun. That’s not the best time of your life. Anne: [28:32] You have to learn to tolerate it. Joseph: Yes. What have you found most challenging over the past few years? What have you struggled with? Whether it’s related to the scaling of your business or just running an independent consultancy, versus being an employee, or anything in your personal life, what’s been the toughest? Anne: [28:52] The theme that has been very challenging across personal and professional has been relationships. I don’t mean client relationships. When you scale quickly in your life, relationships change. I feel the same person. I’m the same person. But, I am seven years older, and I have grown children, and I have a parent who needs care, and I have a business that’s 30 people and growing quickly, and it has a lot of visibility out in the public space and a non-profit platform that also has visibility. And so, even within the business, just how people perceive you and what you are doing and what you say to them and you go from having these intimate, maybe this is the theme. Your children are little, and it’s very intimate. You’re in a small organization or you’re an employee with a team. It’s pretty intimate when you grow an organization. When you grow, sometimes, those bonds tend to fray. The role change. The sort of perceived elevation or distance, what it does is then, it has the potential to damage trust. Everybody has their issues, and their insecurities, and their desires, and they’re all colliding against each other in this organization now. So, the biggest challenge is, “How do I set up the infrastructure?” That human resources infrastructure, and the clarity around roles, and the clarity around expectations, and values, and mission, and that’s all quite challenging. I, in fact, hired somebody with expertise in human resources because I realized I was way out, way out over my skis. Joseph: Yeah. It’s more complicated than it can seem. Initially, you feel like, “I’ll hire these people and I’ll just work it out.” It can be complicated. Anne: [31:01] No. You just can’t even imagine all of the different things that come out. I mean, it’s just mind-blowing. Joseph: I’d also be interested in maybe talking through some of the things that you mentioned to me back in 2016, to revisit these ideas that you had at the time. I went back and, as you know, I was just in Chicago a couple of days ago. On the plane ride over there, I was listening to our old episode. One of the things that you mentioned to me was the idea that your self-worth was driven by your last full-time employer, versus your value coming from your own skills and knowledge and experiences. I was just curious how you now think about your value. Maybe this ties into what you’re just talking about, about your evolving role in your organization. How do you think about those days when you were full-time employed versus now running your own organization? Anne: [31:54] It’s still a challenge. Maybe the lesson is that you never stop questioning your value. Once the consultancy started to pick up steam and got off the ground, and there was 10 of us, or 12 of us, maybe I felt pretty secure. I was like, “I was doing a lot of consulting. I was helping people learn. I was teaching. We were coming up to speed.” Maybe there’s a break from having to question it. But then, a funny thing happened. Just I hired these amazingly talented people who are smarter than me and better at it than I am, and if the business is going to operate well, I got to get out of their way. And so, there was a period of time, and it’s still going on, where I think, “What do I have to offer this organization?” I think I may have told you when we had dinner, I have a really great friend and coach now, Gretchen Alkema, I was her grand team and she was in a foundation. And then, she left and she started her own enterprise. I brought many of the lessons and I told her about our conversations. And now, she’s out on her own doing strengths-based coaching. She’s like, “Your job now is to tell everybody where you’re going.” I was like, “Oh crap! That I have to know!” The value question is just ever-present. I think that might just be either my insecurity or maybe that’s just how we all are. We, as people, as humans, we want to be valuable. Sometimes, I jump in, and I’ll edit papers, or I’ll look at deliverables, and offer suggestions. I feel really valuable when I’m doing that. Joseph: Right. Anne: [33:50] How are we going to grow the business? I’m like, “I don’t know if I know how to do this.” I’m still questioning. Joseph: Figuring it out as you go. Anne: [33:59] Yeah. Joseph: One of the things that you mentioned to me also in 2016, was that a lot of progress is just about showing off. Anne: [34:05] Yeah. Joseph: Do you still believe that? Anne: [34:07] Yes. You know that feeling of panic? I’m sure you feel this way, too. I assume you do. Which is that the nice thing about getting a few years under your belt is that when you get into a trough from a business perspective, you can look back, you don’t have a history. Joseph: Yeah. Anne: [34:22] You can say, “Oh, look. There were five other troughs that always works out.” And that, this showing up thing and wrestling, just like I have a lot more faith now I think about this value question that if I just wrestle with it, the next thing will unfold. Then, shining your flashlight on just the next right step, it’s still scary. I could make a big mistake, make a bad decision, and it will affect a lot of people. I can only just do the best that I can. Showing up is everything. Consistency is everything. Joseph: I don’t know if you know this, but I featured a little clip from your discussion with me back in 2016. When you said that just because something is hard, it doesn’t mean you’re failing. Anne: [35:08] Yeah. Joseph: It’s less about talent and more about commitment and consistency. I think word for word, that is what you said. Because I play it a lot for people. Do you still believe that? Anne: [35:17] Oh, yeah. I get a lot of nice positive reinforcement now from the outside world. You can almost hear the tape playing in their head like, “I don’t know that I would have ever thought you could do this.” Me either! Me either. The only difference between me and the many, many phenomenal people who aren’t creating and building their own companies is that I just do it. I just do it. There is an element of taking risks. I do think that I have a tolerance for risk. It’s not about being particularly smart, or particularly talented. It’s about being willing to put yourself out there and just keep going. Joseph: Well, this ties into the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what’s next for you. It was this idea that you shared with me about how the universe tends to respond when you open yourself up to change. As you just mentioned, just going for it and doing it. I am just curious to hear what you think of that. Now, when you think about your personal life — I guess I’ll just direct you to one idea here, which is just the fact you’re now remarried, but also anything in your professional life. How do you think about this idea of opening yourself up to change and putting yourself out there for that potential change? Anne: [36:47] I just believe in this, there’s a momentum in the larger fabric of the universe. There’s momentum. That our jobs are really just to start the momentum, and that you can put things in motion. I should just say, because I do strengths-based work with [unintelligible], and my top five strengths: ideation and activation, are among my top five. So, it’s easy for me to say, having an idea putting it in motion, having an idea, putting emotion. My biggest challenge sometimes is just actually to not put an idea in motion because there’s enough things in motion right now. Joseph: I’ve got a lot of ideas. Anne: [37:31] Not going to start playing the flute again, nope. Having those strings has allowed me to observe that when you put something in motion, and you put a little bit of muscle behind it, and you commit to it, physics law here where then it picks up steam. There’s going to be things that are going to come along that are going to facilitate that. It’s really cumulative. I’m seeing things happen now in my world that I would never have ever imagined. Like big companies coming and saying, “We want to acquire you.” It’s amusing actually. Joseph: I bet, yeah. Anne: [38:15] They know getting to what’s next, that’s not what I’m interested in. But, it’s a signal that there’s this momentum. Because what I’ve been doing is just, hands down, doing the work. I think you said this to me, and I still have it on my bulletin board. Yes, you did, Joseph. You said this to me. Joseph: I’m curious what this is. Anne: [38:34] Doing the ‘20-mile march’ every day. Joseph: Oh, right. Yes. The Jim Collins concept. Anne: [38:40] Yeah. Joseph: From his “Great by Choice” book. Anne: [38:41] I wrote down in 2016, I still have; anything truly great will take at least five to 10 years to build. At some level, “This might not work” is the heart of all important projects. Joseph: Things do take time. It’s very easy to just give up when you aren’t getting the traction that you want. One of my issues is just having such high expectations of what I think is going to happen tomorrow, and it doesn’t pan out that way. And then, I get disappointed by it. And then, the problem is that you might give up on it. Anne: [39:13] Right! Joseph: Or, you’re 99 percent of the way there, and right when you’re about to turn a corner, you drop it. Anne: [39:17] I have had some disappointments. Daughterhood, which is the non-profit platform. Joseph, I did not become as famous as Oprah. Remember? Do you remember me saying, “I want to be like Oprah for caregiving?” Joseph: I remember, yes. I want to talk about Daughterhood! Yeah, I do remember that you had a certain vision for it. Anne: [39:37] It’s not so much about not doing what you’re doing, but about reframing your expectations. Joseph: Yes. I know one of the things you mentioned to me also at the time was, and I’ll just ask you the same question again today. If you were to give your advice to your younger self, one of the things you said was about suffering less. I’m wondering what your perspective is on this now. Is there any sort of advice you might share with Anne in 2016 when you were in the earlier days of starting and running your business? Anne: [40:06] You’ve got everything you need. You’re not missing anything. I think that I’ve lived a lot of my life thinking that I wasn’t smart enough or talented enough. But, my strengths, your unique constellation of gifts is enough. It’s enough to do the things that are meaningful to you, and that’s all that matters. So, it’s not about success, as it’s defined by the world. It’s more about what it is that you want to get up every morning and do. You would absolutely have everything that it takes to do what’s meaningful to you on a day-to-day basis. There’s no question. Everybody does. I think that’s what I would say. Just remind myself that you are enough. Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with what you are doing now. I know there are all sorts of things we could talk about. I’m probably most interested in what you just mentioned. At the time you had just launched Daughterhood Circles back in 2016, or you’re thinking about the idea of it, which was to provide women with these resources to care for their aging parents. How did you envision that going, and how has it gone, and what’s next for it? I know there’s a lot of questions wrapped up in that one question. Anne: [41:25] For people who don’t live in the United States listening to this podcast, we have a very broken system for supporting older adults and their families when their ability to function in their day-to-day life starts to diminish. They need support and services. There’s no front door to a system. There’s no front door to a front door. It’s just you’re really on your own. So, the idea behind that these grassroots circles formed by volunteers in every community was that they would serve as the sort of peer-to-peer coaching, and support, and connection to resources. Like, who better to tell you where you can go for things and people who’ve been through it. It turns out that trying to scale a grassroots volunteer-led organization that is highly disaggregated or disparate across the country is really, really hard. And, people still don’t know the answers to those questions. We really, really flailed for many years in trying to build this network of circles at the local level. We had a handful of really high-performing ones. We had a bunch that didn’t ever get off the ground. Eventually, we’ve pivoted. My father’s death in COVID coincided with really pushing me into a new approach, which is a virtual circle platform, and making it more topic-based. And then, we’re now getting ready to launch a whole new way of connecting our community to resources at the local level that will give them the resources they need to get going. We are moving it into a non-profit and getting the 501(c)(3) designation that will enable us to hopefully raise some money and truly scale. There are a couple of relationships that broke up between myself and some of our leaders and volunteers that were really excruciatingly painful for me. Joseph: I guess whenever you’re going through these moments of change and evolution, it’s hard to keep every relationship intact in a positive way. Just there are so many important parts. Anne: [43:39] Yeah. You fail people. You can’t meet everybody’s expectations for everything all the time. Sometimes, they’re coming from a place that you couldn’t control it even if you wanted to. Like, you could trust yourself under a pretzel and they would still — doesn’t have anything to do with you. Joseph: Yes. Anne: [43:57] But, it’s still painful. I’m really excited that I have an incredible partner now, and all of this somebody who sort of appeared at the right time to help me turn this next phase into a reality, and that’s made all the difference. Joseph: Last question then for you, Anne, because I do want to end on a positive note here because it sounds like you’ve gone through so much change, and you’ve grown your organization, your life has changed over the past seven years, both personally and professionally. At the beginning of our chat today, you mentioned that little animated trailer that I put together to launch this podcast a few years ago. In that trailer, we featured something you said at the time about how you wished you had known just how amazing it is to be in the process of doing something new. What has been the most rewarding part of your career change journey? Anne: [44:48] It’s still the creation of something that is not lived in the world before. I mentioned this at the beginning, working on the business. Probably, a little bit more of a big picture way of saying that is, getting up every morning, getting to think about what’s next. For me, it’s 100 percent about creativity. But, you have to have all of the business fundamentals there, and you have to have all the right people who know how to execute. I mean, there’s a lot of things that go into it. But, when I’m really in the zone, when I’m really feeling great, it’s when I’m thinking about, “We’re going to be a 50 percent business in a year and a half, and here are the things that we’re going to be doing, and here’s the content we’re going to put out around that, and the reports we’re going to write, and the money we’re going to raise for Daughterhood.” Just being able to not just have the idea and not just activate it, but then move it along and see it appear in the world. It’s my art. I’m not an artist. I’m a terrible artist. A terrible musician. I’m a really bad gardener. All of those things, but this is my art. And so, for me, it’s a creative process and that’s what gets me up in the morning. It makes it all worthwhile. Joseph: Thank you so much for chatting with me again today and about your journey. Anne: [46:13] Thank you for having me. Joseph: Yeah. You’ve gone from independent consultants to now, the CEO of your own advisory firm. Your life has changed so much over the past few years. I appreciate you sharing with me and everybody else what you’ve learned along the way. Thanks for joining me on this very special 100th episode of the show. Anne: [46:31] Woo-hoo! Joseph: Also, for your willingness to record that chat with me way back in 2016 that really planted the first seed to get this podcast off the ground. Anne: [46:39] Joseph, you’ve done amazing work. You’ve helped so many people along the way. So, huge congratulations to you as well. Joseph: Thank you. Anne: [46:48] I’m reflecting that actually. There’s a little bit of a container for us to have this conversation that is important. We need to do this. We need to have a way to go, “Okay.” Gosh, I didn’t realize. I got married, my dad died, my kids grew up and left the home, the business grew. All in seven years. I don’t think I fully reflected on all that. So, thank you. Joseph: Of course, of course. Anne: [47:14] I really appreciate it. Joseph: Thank you for sharing it all with me, too. Yeah, it’s just nice that we can stay in touch after all these years. How long is it? It’s 20 years now. Anne: [47:22] Well, we’ll be in touch for the rest of our lives. Joseph: I hope so, yeah. I hope so. Well, in the meantime, best of luck with your work at ATI Advisory, the future of Daughterhood, and of course, the rest of your life there in D.C. Anne: [47:34] Thanks. Joseph: Hope to talk with you again soon, Anne. Anne: [47:36] Okay.

Think for a moment about the original blueprint you once had for your career. What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you envision your life would look? And what has your actual experience been like? If you’re like most people I cross paths with, your career trajectory has been very different from what you imagined. Your ability to roll with the punches and absorb the shocks that inevitably come up along the way of any professional journey can make a huge difference to where you end up. Broadway musical star turned web engineer Carla Stickler explains how she managed to balance multiple career endeavors while pivoting into a brand new industry on episode 99 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also explain how to embrace and manage the inevitable messiness of career transitions. Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, you can just tell when you’re excelling and making the most of your strengths in your career. The more positive feedback you get from others, the more this reinforces the fact you’re on the right track. You never know when you’re going to turn a corner in your career. With enough patience and persistence, you may eventually have your big breakthrough. Think of your first job in a new sector as an opportunity to clarify exactly which aspects of this new work appeal to you and aligns best with your interests. When you’re considering opportunities that may feel like a reach, instead of just saying, “why me?” try saying, “why NOT me?” Resources Mentioned Carla mentioned a couple of resources to help people learn coding including Freecodecamp.org, the Grace Hopper bootcamp, and the Flatiron School bootcamp that episode 77 guest Erika Russi joined. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify one area in your career where your desire for the ideal set of circumstances may be resulting in procrastination and getting in the way of you starting the next chapter in your career. Are you still waiting or the perfect solution to come to you? Are you waiting until the moment when you feel completely ready to take a plunge into something new? Try and accept that pivots are imperfect and imprecise. Acknowledge that there may be no perfect time to make your move. Understand you may never have 100% clarity on exactly what you want to do next. And understand that the biggest challenge is not tackling but rather accepting the uncertainty of it all. Rather than getting stuck in a state of inaction and paralysis, just do your best to just take one action that creates some progress in the face of this uncertainty. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:00 – Chat with Carla Stickler 00:45:54 – Mental Fuel 00:52:59 – Listener Challenge 00:53:24 – Wrap Up About Carla Stickler, Broadway Star Turned Web Engineer Carla Stickler is a Web Engineer at Spotify with over a decade of performing in musicals under her belt. She is best known for her performance as Elphaba in Wicked on Broadway and has performed her own cabaret as a guest entertainer onboard Norwegian and Disney Cruise Lines. With a BFA in acting from NYU-Tisch and masters degree in theater education from NYU-Steinhardt, she was a voice teacher in New York City and made appearances as a teaching artist and guest speaker at Thespian Festivals around the country. Carla is passionate about reframing the narrative of the “starving artist” and encourages young artists to take agency over their careers by developing skills that can provide them with financial stability alongside their artistic journey. She’s also involved with Artists Who Code, a growing group of artists exploring the world of tech, where she mentors other artists as they are beginning their journey into tech. Find out more about Carla by listening to this episode of NPR’s Up First podcast (where I first heard about her), reading this HuffPost interview featuring Carla, or checking out this NPR interview she did with Scott Simon. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself for years, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Pulsars Isobel O’Connor – King of Forest Green Podington Bear – Tweedlebugs Podington Bear – Turqoise Podington Bear – Raw Umber Bio Unit – Idiophone Lama House – Oceans and Infinity Orbit – Corbyn Kites Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, Carla. It is great to have you on the show. I’m so excited to talk with you today. Carla: [03:07] Thanks so much for having me. I can’t wait to get into it. Joseph: All right. Well, let’s talk about, first of all, what has been keeping you busy at this moment, in your career and also your life. Carla: [03:18] Well, at this very moment, the thing that is keeping me the busiest is I recently started a new job. Almost, I’m like a month and a half in now at Spotify. And so, that is what has been keeping me the most busy right now. Just trying to like to learn everything, figure out the code base, and figure out what I’m doing. Joseph: You are a web engineer there, is that correct? Carla: [03:41] Yes, that’s correct. Joseph: Without getting into specifics on the projects you’re working on, can you give me a sense of exactly what a web engineer does at Spotify? Carla: [03:53] Like most people know, they have the app on their phone, that would be our mobile engineers who work on the app that you probably use daily. I work on the website of the podcast side of things. So, I work on the web being what you see on your computer when you’re using the podcast part of Spotify. I work on the front end, so I work on what you see; not the back end, not the data, not all the stuff that makes everything run. Joseph: Very interesting. Well, that front-end user experience is, obviously, really important to the success of Spotify over the years. As a user myself, I certainly appreciate the incremental improvements and changes to the app made over time. What about personally, what’s been occupying your time outside of work? Carla: [04:40] I love that Spotify has a great respect for work-life balance. So, I do take advantage of my personal time. The one thing that has been occupying all of my time, and I’m going to dive right in and get real personal. My husband and I have been doing fertility treatments now for almost two years. We are coming to a close with them very soon. That has just been kind of occupying all of the other space in my life. Joseph: I can imagine that. It’s one of those things that many people don’t talk about. But then, if you start to ask around with friends, you start to realize a lot of people are dealing with this when you have no idea that they were dealing with it on top of everything else they have going on. I know it can be a very intensive process. Carla: [05:27] Absolutely. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your former life. You haven’t always been a web engineer at Spotify. I’m going to want to talk with you at some point about how you ended up in this very different industry from what you were doing before, which is you used to be a performer on Broadway. Before we get into the details of the shows that you were in, can you just take me back to your childhood and how you came to this idea that you wanted to perform? Carla: [05:59] I grew up in a very musical family. My mother was a classical pianist, who was obsessed with Stephen Sondheim in musical theater. My grandmother was an opera singer, who had a voice studio downtown at the Fine Arts Building here in Chicago. My father was in a — there were five of them. They were called “Stuck in the ’50s,” and they sing doo-wop in my hometown. Joseph: Wow. Okay. Carla: [06:24] I just grew up in it. Just everybody in my family was in music. So, it made sense that that was kind of what I was going to do. I was in a choir at a young age. I was encouraged to pursue the things that I wanted to do artistically. I went to summer camp up at Interlochen Arts Camp up in northern Michigan in Traverse City for all my summers of high school. I ended up going there for my senior year of high school. It was kind of this thing where I was just on this path. There’s a lot of momentum around doing theater and music, just non-stop. I didn’t have a lot of other things that I did. I was very focused on music here. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were eventually going to do this professionally at the time? Was that the plan? Carla: [07:09] I went back and forth when I was younger. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do a musical theater, or if I wanted to be an opera singer. I ended up going to college, my freshman year of college at Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, to study opera. I was like, “I want to be just like my grandma. I want to sing opera.” That was kind of the plan. My freshman year ended up having a little bit of a setback. I had to have surgery on my vocal cords after finding out I had a vocal cyst. I dropped out of school after a year. I went home to Chicago. I worked in a deli for a semester and was just kind of stuck trying to figure out what I was going to do next. At that point, I decided to do just acting. So, I went to NYU and I studied just theater, and I didn’t sing for three years. At one point, I had a teacher who was like, “Why aren’t you singing?” I was a very emotional child, so I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing in my life. I think I want to be an actor. I’m very confused.” They taught me how to belt and I learned how to kind of just re-imagine what my voice could be. That for me, was I would say kind of the first time in my life I learned how to kind of pivot and how to reframe what I wanted to do, and realized that I could kind of have a little more power over who I am. So, I learned how to belt and things just kind of took off. Like, I was like, “Oh, this works. This makes sense. I’m good at this.” And then, I just kind of fell into it. Then after graduation, I got an agent and I started working immediately. Joseph: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Carla, is how does one know whether they’re pretty good at singing and maybe above average versus being like top-tier Broadway material? At what point does that become more obvious to you? Carla: [09:01] You feel it. You feel the response that you’re getting from other people. You feel the way that you feel while you’re doing it. Once I learned how to belt, which is the thing that I did in my Broadway career. I’m a Broadway belter. Once I learned how to do that, I just remember it feeling so weird, but it just felt really good. It felt right, and I was getting positive responses for my teachers, things just kind of started snowballing and falling into place. I don’t think we always get to make the decision, but I was getting all this really good feedback. So, I was like, “Oh, yes. I’m going to follow this.” And, that’s kind of what I tend to do. I’m like, I choose something, and if I’m getting positive responses, I tend to follow that path, until I don’t. Either decide I don’t want to do it anymore, or I decided I wanted something else. Joseph: So, you get an agent. What was one of the first roles you ended up landing? Carla: [09:59] The first big job I got right out of college, I ended up playing Liesel in “The Sound of Music” in Asia. I was like 19, or no, I was 20. When I graduated, 22. I was 22. I went to Hong Kong for like four months and played Liesel, the oldest daughter. The “16 Going On 17.” Joseph: Yeah, I remember. Carla: [10:22] It was so much fun. I just like had the best time. We were famous in Hong Kong. Our pictures were on billboards. Everywhere we went, everyone knew who we were. It was very, very fun. Joseph: How long were you doing that before you ended up moving on to your next role? Carla: [10:38] That was a four or five-month gig. When it ended, I didn’t work for a year after that. I had a really big kind of reality check. I had been fortunate to book that, but I still wasn’t a union actor. It was overseas, so it wasn’t a union gig. I was struggling to be seen. Even though I had an agent, it was really hard for me to get in the door. And so, the only thing that I knew how to do was take classes so I could meet people. I took a bunch of musical theater classes. I started taking dance classes all the time. I started waiting in long lines to audition first off because I wasn’t union. Every time I would get an audition for my agent, I would get a coach and I would work hard on it. Because my goal was just to get my union card so that I could audition easier. I didn’t study musical theater in college. So, that year was my education in musical theater that I really kind of crammed myself while waiting a lot of tables, bartending, and doing a lot of other things to make money so I could live in New York. Joseph: I’ve always wondered because you always hear these stories about people who eventually end up on Broadway or who are on Broadway, and they’re waiting tables, or they’re doing these other sort of blue-collar jobs. Did you have like a time limit in mind for yourself before you would maybe move on to something else? Because I would imagine it takes a little bit of time to gain some traction in this very competitive industry. Carla: [12:00] Funny that you asked that because I haven’t thought about this in a while. But, right at the end of that year, I was two seconds away from quitting. I was so over it. I hated waiting tables. Nothing was happening. I remember the guy that I was dating at that time, we had taken a trip to California and we were out at the beach. We’re like, “Maybe we should just move to the beach, and wait tables, or like open our own theater company. I don’t know.” We were about to just like leave New York. I was just so fed up with that whole year. It had been frustrating and hard. Literally, while we were on that trip, my agent called. They’re like, “Can you be in New York in two days? You have a final callback for ‘Mamma Mia’ for the national tour.” I was like, “Okay.” I had been in for the show a few times at that point. And so, I flew back. I got a terrible cold. I had probably what I thought was one of the worst auditions of my life. And then, two days later, I found out I booked it and had to go out on tour a week later. When you were kind of like, “How do you know you’re doing well?” I always take it, it’s like little science. I’m like, “Well, I guess I am supposed to do this.” So, my plans of quitting kind of got put on hold. I was like, “All right. I’m going to go on tour. See? The universe is spoken. I’m supposed to do this. I’m not supposed to quit.” So, I just kind of kept doing that. I went on tour then for about a year and a half with “Mamma Mia.” Joseph: So, you’re in “Mamma Mia,” huge show, very well-known around the world. You would eventually end up getting cast in “The Wicked” musical. How did that all transpire for you? Carla: [13:27] I’ve literally done three large shows in the entirety of my career because I was really fortunate that I got into kind of these long-running shows. I did “Mamma Mia” for about a year and a half. And then, I left to go get married the first time. I was a vacation cover for that company then for the rest of that year and a half. I would fly out to the tour and I would cover for a couple of months. At the beginning of 2010, I ended up booking “Wicked.” And so then, I went on tour with that for three years. And then, back to New York. And then, I was in New York for the rest of the time. Joseph: Just going through this one step at a time, what was your role during those first years with “Wicked”? Carla: [14:06] From 2010 through 2011, I was the understudy for Elphaba. Which means, I was in the ensemble, eight shows a week, and I was the second cover. So, in “Wicked,” Elphaba has a standby and an understudy. The standby is an off-stage cover. They’re the first person to go on. They’re on a principal contract. They will always perform the role of Elphaba if the lead role cannot go on; the lead person who plays that role. The understudy only goes on if the other two people cannot go on. You’re in the ensemble eight times a week. You understood you’ve rehearsed the role, and you have no idea when you’re going to go on for the role. I did that for two years. And then, I did the standby role for a year on the tour. And then, after I left that, I moved into the Broadway company to go back into the understudy role. I was the understudy for the entirety of the time that I was there on Broadway. I would occasionally go in as a swing contract because I would cover a bunch of other things. But, I was always understudying Elphaba. Joseph: Elphaba, for those people who are not familiar with the show — I have seen the show. She’s the lead role. Carla: [15:17] She’s the green one. Joseph: She’s the green witch and lead role in a huge, huge musical. As the understudy, what are you doing during the show? Because you’re saying you’re on standby. You are literally waiting backstage. Carla: [15:34] It would depend. If I was the standby, I would be off-stage. I would just be kind of hanging out when I was on tour. When I was the standby, I had an Etsy store and I made bracelets backstage because I had nothing else to do. I guess I was fortunate that I performed the role a lot while I was on tour. We just happened to be in places where some of the girls that I covered maybe had allergies or whatever was happening with them. So, I got to perform the role a lot while I was on tour. As an understudy though, you’re in the show eight shows a week. So, you’re in the ensemble so there’s no time to do anything else. That standby role is my favorite thing to do ever. It’s like the perfect role. Maybe you play Elphaba once or twice a week, and then you just get to do whatever you want the rest of the week. You have to be at the theater to do that. That’s the coveted get. In my opinion, that is the perfect job. Joseph: Could you give us a sense of how much of this you were doing each week? You said you’ve got, obviously, got multiple shows a week. How many shows are we talking about every single week? Carla: [16:33] Eight shows a week. Joseph: I’m assuming if you’re playing the role of Elphaba, you’re in heels, you’re wearing a wig, you’re in full dress. Does that take its toll on you after? Well, I’m just trying to imagine delivering that level of energy every single night. Whether you’re in the ensemble or if you’re actually performing the role of Elphaba. Both just require like 100 percent every night. What’s that like? Carla: [16:57] I found my ensemble role to be hard on my body because I danced a lot, and I am not actually a dancer. But, for some reason, the understudy has to dance. So, I wore like three-inch heels, and heavy, heavy wigs. My neck, chronic neck issues from wearing those heavy wigs. In the Broadway company, the stage that we danced on is not flat. It’s what you call a raked stage. It’s lower in the front of the stage and higher. It goes on a slight angle. Our stage is one of the highest raked I believe on Broadway. The one at the Gershwin in New York. So, imagine you’re wearing a three-inch heel on a raked stage. Now, it’s like you’re wearing a five-inch heel. I used to wear this very tall, flat-top wig. And so, my head, you’re constantly — your body’s rebalancing for like this crazy angle. So, your neck and all these muscles that you wouldn’t think are over-compensating. And so, I ended up with like neck injuries, and I ended up with some rib injuries from dancing with a dance partner with a very bony shoulder that got me in the side of the rib, and then a bunch of foot injuries. I have hip injuries. I literally spent all of my free time when I was in that show in New York at physical therapy, the doctor, the gym. Just like trying to make sure that my body was ready to go that night because I had so many things going on. That’s the most exhausting part of being on a Broadway show. Joseph: I was going to actually ask you, yeah, what’s the best part of being in a big Broadway hit and what’s the toughest part of it? Carla: [18:36] Yeah, that’s the toughest part. Joseph: The physicality. Carla: [18:38] Yeah. It’s the thing that the audience doesn’t see. They don’t know there’s this idea that performing on Broadway is really glamorous. Joseph: Yeah. Carla: [18:47] It is. There’s a certain aspect to it. It’s really fun. The fact that I get to go out on stage and tell the story every night, and sing these songs, and be a part of this incredible show, that’s the best part of it. When I get to meet people and they tell me how much the show meant to them, that is incredible. But, the stuff that people do not see, the constant having to take care of your body and your voice. As an understudy, I always like to say it was like I had a little Elphaba sitting on my shoulder at all times. I had no social life. I couldn’t go out late. I had to make sure I got at least eight to nine hours of sleep every night. I couldn’t drink alcohol. I couldn’t talk too much. I had to make sure that I was warmed up every single day because I also never knew when I was going to perform that role. I would find out at the last minute always because I was the understudy and not the standby. It usually meant that there was an emergency if I was going to be performing. I performed a lot, which meant there were a lot of emergencies, which meant I couldn’t live my life because I had no idea when those things were going to happen. And so, I kind of always had to be ready. That’s why I say that standby role is that coveted role because you know you’re going to get to do it at some point within the next couple of weeks. But, as the understudy, it could be six months, it could be a year before I go on. And so, it’s a lot of just having to keep up your physical body and everything so you can do that role at a moment’s notice. Joseph: Yeah. I could just imagine the uncertainty of it and just not knowing what your day is going to look like, or thinking you might go on stage and then you don’t. Carla: [20:26] It’s emotionally exhausting. Joseph: Yeah. I can imagine. At what point did you feel like this toll that the performance was having, both physical and also just the emotional, what you’re talking about not knowing when you’re going to perform? At what point did you feel like you may need to make a change? Do you remember what that moment was for you? Carla: [20:49] The first one in 2015, when I left the Broadway company full-time, I knew that I couldn’t keep doing the show eight times a week. I was just exhausted. I had a lot of medical stuff going on. And so, I went to grad school. I decided for myself that if I was going to step away from performing full-time, the respectable thing to do would be to go and get a master’s degree in Education. I got a master’s in Theater Education at NYU, and teach theater because I really like teaching theater. I like teaching voice, something I always felt very drawn to. I like helping people. Joseph: You’re teaching high school kids at that time. Carla: [21:29] I was doing both. So, I was going to Thespian Festivals in the summer, and I was teaching, working with high school students. And so, that’s kind of what inspired me. But, I knew I wanted to work with college students. I wanted to kind of work on a little bit more of an expertise level. So, I taught between 2015 and the pandemic, so 2020, I taught on two faculties in New York. I had a private voice studio that I ran. I loved doing that but I also simultaneously was still going in and out of “Wicked” during that time. I thought teaching was going to give me the freedom to have a little more ownership over my career. Teach, but then I was also still performing, occasionally, and I was getting frustrated with the business throughout all of that. It wasn’t quite what I thought it was going to be. I was an adjunct professor. I didn’t make a lot of money. I didn’t have health insurance. I just kind of kept realizing that I didn’t know. I was like, “I don’t know if I can do this forever.” I was exhausted. I felt like I was just constantly hustling. Looking into the show, performing for a couple of weeks here and there, and then maybe doing readings of new musicals, and then having a full load of students, and just being absolutely drained. And so then, in 2018, I had been at “Wicked” for a couple of weeks — the thing about going into “Wicked” is, every time I would go back, they would kind of like dangle a carrot in front of me. They’d be like, “Oh, Carla. It’s so great to have you back. We have to get you back in that standby role.” And then, the role would come up and they wouldn’t cast me in it. I just kind of was like, “I keep bending over backward to come in and help you out.” They would call me a Sunday morning and be like, “Can you come in for the matinee?” Joseph: Oh, wow. Like, that afternoon. Okay. Carla: [23:12] Yeah. I remember, one 4th of July, I was in Philadelphia with my friends. They were like, “Hey, Carla. Do you think you can be here tomorrow? We need somebody to cover for two weeks.” I was like, great. And so, I rented a car and drove back from Phil, like wherever I was in Pennsylvania to help them for two weeks. I did a lot of things like that. I thought if I gave them my show, that I was loyal to the show, they would give me the thing that I wanted, which was to move me into that standby role. Because that was the thing that I loved because I loved performing that role. I didn’t love dancing. And so, in 2018, I had this moment where I realized, “Oh, they’re never going to give me that role. They’re never going to let me play it.” I kind of just melted. I was like, “I can’t do this.” Like, I can’t teach these college students to go into a business that is just going to chew them up and spit them out. I can’t keep doing it. I was like, “I don’t know how to inspire these people to go into this business that is making me feel so terrible.” And so, I was like, “I need to do something else.” Joseph: Now, before we get to that transition, I also know that on top of all of this, do I have this right? That between 2015 and 2017, you were also working on a cruise line? Carla: [24:31] Oh, yeah. I also did. Joseph: On top of going to grad school. Can you just explain how that worked? Carla: [24:39] How that’s possible? How was I doing things at once? Joseph: Yes. Carla: [24:42] I mentioned I have ADHD, that’s how I was doing it. No. I was finishing grad school, and I was working on Norwegian Cruise Lines, doing my own show. I was a guest entertainer. The cruise went from Sunday to Sunday, from New York to the Bahamas and back. I would, on Monday, in New York. I would go to classes on Monday and Tuesday. And then, on Wednesday, I would fly to the Bahamas, meet the ship there. Cruise back with them to New York, do my two sets Saturday night, and then I would get off the ship Sunday morning, and I would go home, and I would rinse and repeat. I did that non-stop every week for about six months. And then, for another year and a half, I did about one sailing a month. Like, every week. Maybe once a month, maybe twice a month. I switched off with another girl. So, I did that kind of intermittently. Joseph: So, you’re balancing this solo show on Norwegian Cruise Lines with your grad school, while also being called in every so often to do “Wicked.” You’re flying back and forth between New York and the Bahamas. When you did decide that it was time for you to look at doing something else, what steps did you take to figure that out? Carla: [25:52] I’m like, “Oh, shiny things.” I’m like that kind of person. I see something that like grabs my attention and I will run towards it. In 2018, a friend of mine came to my birthday party. He had been a songwriter, that’s how I’d known him. He had gone to a software engineering boot camp, and was like, “I just got a job as a software engineer.” It was just like the perfect timing. The second he said it, I don’t know why I thought this. I was like, “Oh, I bet I can do that.” I went home and I just started teaching myself how to code. I was totally sucked in. I would spend hours and hours on my couch, on my computer, learning HTML and CSS and JavaScript. I was like, “This is so interesting and so different than anything I had ever done.” Joseph: How are you teaching yourself this? Was it online courses? Did you get books? Carla: [26:46] The program that I used was freecodecamp.org. I’m a big fan of their stuff. It’s really accessible. They have a lot of front end. They do also do some back end. I think they have Python. I use them mostly for JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. And then, I was also digging around a bunch of bootcamp prep programs. So, my friend had gone to the Flatiron School. So, I was looking at their bootcamp prep. I also looked at Grace Hopper’s bootcamp prep. I need a lot of different pathways into the material to understand it. So, I just found a bunch of different ways to get into this material so I could see it from a bunch of different angles and understand the concepts. So, I did that. And then, I decided to do the bootcamp in the summer of 2019, my summer break. Joseph: I’m just trying to understand. You’re going from being a performer, belting in front of huge audiences, which strikes me as quite an extroverted type of activity. And then, you’re moving into learning coding by yourself, sitting in front of a screen. They seem like such different worlds and existences to me. Was that difficult to make, the transition, or was it welcome? Carla: [28:03] You know what’s interesting? While performing is an extroverted activity, I guess or a job career, understudying a role is a very solo job. I spent a lot of solo time going over the role. I would spend time by myself in a rehearsal room walking through the show. By myself in my hotel room, singing through the show and visualizing my work. So, there is a lot of introverted kind of solo work that goes into being an understudy. Yes, you do have to be on stage with other people. So, you do have to know how to connect with other people. The thing that I knew how to do was how to work by myself. I knew how to learn things. I had learned how I learned, and that is something I do solo. And so, doing software engineering really kind of tapped into that solo work that I love. Also, I am a ceramic artist. I do pottery. Pottery is also very focused solo work. I can sit at a pottery wheel for four hours, five hours, and just throw mugs all day long. I love very focused work. And so, software engineering really tapped into that for me. I guess I do. I do sometimes crave people. But, I’ve found other ways to get that. Joseph: Yeah. I guess you’re spending a lot of time by yourself in hotel rooms and backstage and just quietly rehearsing things with yourself. So, very interesting. Can you explain how you then transitioned into your first formalized role in this world of coding and software engineering? I understand your first role that you had wasn’t exactly the perfect role for you, but it helped you transition into the industry. Carla: [29:52] I have the great fortune of starting my job search in March of 2020. We all know what was going on then, and everybody was on a hiring freeze. Nobody would hire me. Nobody would even interview me for software engineering roles. I had a couple of calls with people. What I remember one, at the end of the call, she said to me, “I’m really sorry. I hope I didn’t waste your time. I just really wanted to talk to you. You seemed like an interesting person, but I don’t really have a role for you.” I was like, “Okay.” She’s like, “But I’m so interested in you. I can’t wait to see what’s next for you. Please keep in touch.” I was like, “Great. Okay.” I was like, okay, I’m networking. I guess that’s what I’m doing. I could not find any roles. The first interview that I got was for a customer success role at a tech start-up in New York. It was fully remote. I charmed my way into the role. I had no idea what I was doing. I bombed the interview. I sent them an email like, “Listen, I can learn this. I’m good with people. If you teach me how to do it, I will be able to do it.” They gave me their job. I did it for a year. It was not the right role for me. I discovered I like people; I do not like working with customers. That is a very different kind of people. The great thing about it was it gave me and my husband the opportunity to move back to Chicago. I had a full-time job. I had health insurance. Those were the most important things to me. So, as soon as we had some stability, we moved back to Chicago. We bought a house. We got to be near our family. And then, once we settled here, I started applying for software engineering jobs and ended up at a company in Chicago. I did that for two years, and it was great. Joseph: That was G2. Carla: [31:34] Yes. Joseph: Which is they do software and service reviews. Now, before we get to your current role, I know in late 2021, you ended up kind of going back to your former life a little bit. Can you explain to me what happened after you had started your role as a software engineer at G2, about a year into your role? Carla: [31:57] I am so grateful to G2. They were so supportive when this happened. I kind of mentioned earlier how “Wicked” would ask me to do things very last minute a lot. That was kind of the thing I’m very good at. I’m very good at a last-minute pop-in, to do something that is very difficult. It was Christmas vacation of 2021. It was the day after Christmas. I was on my way to Michigan to go have a great time at a cabin with a bunch of friends. I get a call from “Wicked,” and they were like, “Hey, what are you doing? Do you want to fly to New York tomorrow and come help us out? We’re running out of Elphabas. Everybody has COVID.” At that point, I was thinking through all the girls that I knew in New York who covered the role in the past few years, and everybody had COVID or just had a baby. And so, I was like, “Well, it’s me. Okay.” I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go just because I was so excited about my new life. I was like, “No, I got to do this.” I need to kind of just for me, for myself. I was like, if I get one more chance to play this role, I think I can kind of put it to bed. I think I will be content with Broadway and not feel like I missed out on anything. Because I hadn’t, at that point, played Elphaba since 2015. Even though I’ve been covering it, and understudying it, and rehearsing it, I hadn’t performed it in a long time. So, I was like, “Oh, this might be a nice opportunity.” So, I flew in. Luckily, didn’t get COVID. I did get to perform the role two nights while I was there. It was unexpected. I was kind of just doing it for myself. And then, the moment kind of went a little viral. I had a lot of people reaching out to me and news organizations. Everybody wanted to know who this crazy software engineer was that could just play Elphaba at the drop of a dime. It was a little bit exhausting. I was ready to kind of just be a software engineer. And then, all of a sudden, it launched me into this space of a lot of people wanted to talk to me about what I had done, and feeling like I needed to be an inspiration to a lot of other people. I love that but also, I said my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for a long time. So, it was like in the middle of all of these things, and I had so much going on. It was overwhelming. Joseph: There are some times, Carla, there’s this allure to our former life. It can be very alluring and almost tempting to revert back to what used to be a very normal and kind of our day-to-day existence. And yet, you’ve now seen this other side of the world. You’ve seen this other side of an industry that you maybe thought wasn’t quite right for you. And then, you discovered this whole coding world. I can imagine that would just create all sorts of internal dialogue is what I would probably be having with myself during that time. Carla: [34:46] A lot of like, “Who am I? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing? Have I made the right choices?” The teacher in me is like, “How can I help other people?” It was overwhelming. A lot of good things came out of it, but I wasn’t quite ready for all of it. So, a lot of opportunities were missed just because I couldn’t keep track of everything. Joseph: Well, you eventually just would remain in the software and web engineering space. What triggered you to eventually decide to move to Spotify, which is a recent move you just made earlier this year? Carla: [35:18] I loved G2. I was a full-stack engineer there. It was a great first job for me. I got to learn so much about who I want to be as an engineer. I always tell people who are kind of getting into engineering, “Your first job is not going to be your forever role. Your first job is to learn about what is going to be required of you in this space.” Especially, if you’re changing careers from an entirely different field. Your first job is to learn the lingo, learn how to exist in this space, learn what your opinions are, and figure out who you are as an engineer. For me, it was great because I really discovered at that role that I love front-end work. The artist in me loves the design aspect of front end. I love making things look pretty, and I’m drawn to that aspect of engineering. And so, when this role kind of came up, a friend of mine works at Spotify and he’s like, “Hey, we have a role. You should apply for it.” I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I’m ready.” And then, I was like, “You know what? I’m never going to feel ready. I’m just going to do it.” I spent weeks just cramming so I could do well on the interviews. It just kind of one thing after another. I was like, “Oh, I am ready. I actually do know more than I thought I did. I just spent two years doing this. I know so much more about who I am, and the space, what I want. I’m much better at articulating that. I know how to answer these questions. I know what I’m doing. Why not me? Why can’t I get this job?” And so, I keep saying it feels very on-brand for me to work at Spotify, just because it’s a music company. Joseph: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Carla: [36:57] Yeah. Of course, I would work at Spotify. So, it’s really nice. It feels like a nice landing spot right now. Joseph: Yeah. Carla: [37:03] I would like to stick for a little while. Joseph: Yeah. It is an interesting intersection of the work that you’re now doing and the work that you had been doing in the past. Quite neatly packaged up. So, the last thing I want to talk about with you, Carla, before we wrap up with a very interesting and important initiative of yours that you mentioned to me before, is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. As I was researching you and your story, and reading about some of your past interviews that you’ve done, I know one of the things that you said before was that, being an understudy and an actor teaches you to be brave. This change that you have made from being a performer to someone who’s now working in the world of software web engineering takes a bit of a leap of faith. How were you able to find your courage to make that leap of faith? Carla: [37:52] The courage has come from all the times that I’ve had to change my mind or all the times that I’ve fallen and had to get back up. I just discovered through all of that, that the world doesn’t end. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? As long as I’m safe. Leaving a job, getting fired from a job, having to have that surgery on my vocal cords, anything. All those little moments of having to kind of overcome something and pivot and do something else, really reminded me when I was ready, I was like, “Oh, you know what? I can do this. Why can’t I do this?” I always used to say, “Listen, I survived a divorce. I could do anything.” Like, “I survived playing Elphaba on a moment’s notice. I flew across the country to go play her. My debut was a mess, but I did it and it was great. Like, the first time I played Elphaba.” I have all of these little stories of things that I did that I think are crazy things that I was able to do. And so, when I look at that, I’m like, “Well, if I could do that, why can’t I do this?” And so, it’s just been like a series of reminding myself that, “Well, I can do more than I think I can. If I can just kind of shut that thing out of my brain that says no.” Why not, instead. Joseph: You also did an interview with Monica Torres in 2022 for a HuffPost article. One of the things that struck me that you said in the article was that you feel like, especially around the arts, people have to commit a hundred percent to being an artist. Why do you think that people feel this pressure to contain themselves within a very specific career path? Even when that could potentially be limiting to their lives. Carla: [39:35] In particular with the arts, it really goes back to the message that we all receive when we’re young. It’s that, well, theater and music, it’s so hard. You should only do it if you can’t imagine yourself doing anything else. That is one of the most toxic things we can tell young people because it really pigeonholes them. The kids who do decide to go into the arts then believe that “I have to commit. This has to be everything. I have to give everything in my life to this thing because I made this decision.” Whereas everybody else, maybe it scared them to go in, so everybody else just didn’t even explore it because they thought there was no room for them to have the arts in their life if they wanted to be a part-time artist. So, you don’t really give kids the message that being a part-time artist or being an artist can look however you want. And so, we end up creating this idea that it has to be everything. So, we have to give it 100 percent. We have to be willing to put up with toxic behavior in the industry. We have to be willing to put up with low wages and no health insurance because that’s what it means to be an artist, that’s what it means to be an actor. I don’t want to get too much into the strikes that are going on right now. But, the WGA strike and the SAG strike. It’s all a reflection of this idea that actors and artists will work for nothing because they love it. That’s not fair because we will. Artists love it and they’re passionate about it. So, they’re willing to give up a lot for it and that’s not fair to us because then we burn out, and we don’t get paid what we’re worth, and we can’t manage all of it. Because the people with all the money aren’t respecting that we also deserve to have liveable wages and all of those things. It’s hard. There’s this feeling of if you can’t give it all, can’t do it at all, might as well quit. That’s something I’m still exploring. What does it look like? What does art look like in my life now that I’ve kind of stepped away from that full-time pursuit? How can I do art and not feel burnt out? How can I do it for me? How can I do it and still love it and enjoy it, without giving it 100 percent? Because I can’t do that anymore. Joseph: You sound like you have a lot of different facets to your professional life and lots of different interests, which is wonderful. I’m just interested to hear what you’ve learned about yourself along the way of this very interesting career change journey. Carla: [41:58] Two things. One, I’m much more resilient than I give myself credit for. Two, I’m smarter than I think. It sounds silly every time I say it. But, as a woman, as an artist, these are things that I don’t think we tell young girls enough. And so, I just always assumed I don’t think I ever thought of myself as a smart person, as like an intellectual person. And so, to have gone into engineering, I’m like, “Oh, I am smart. I can figure things out. I can write code and solve difficult problems.” That, to me, means that I’m a smart person. And so, it validates that for me, which is nice. To be 40, and finally believe that I’m a smart person. Joseph: Well, speaking of this intersection of their different interests in your career, I’d love to wrap up with something I know is really important to you. Can you tell me a little bit more about “Artists Who Code”? What exactly is that? Carla: [42:54] At the beginning of 2020, when everything shut down, a bunch of friends and a bunch of people that I knew were kind of like, “What do I do? I don’t know what to do?” You learned how to code; how do I do that?” Some other friends of mine who I met during this time had started a Slack group just because they were having the same thing. Their friends were asking them the same question because they had been performers, they had quit performing. People were like, “How do I do that? I need a job. Can I learn to code? Is that something I can do?” They started a little Slack group. And so, a friend of mine connected me with them, and I just started funneling everybody into this group. And so, over the past few years, this group has blown. We have hundreds of people in the group. They’re all artists who’ve all decided they want to learn how to code, or learn design, or get into tech somehow. And so, we spend a lot of time helping people explore bootcamps and have conversations around, “Is there a way to balance both? How could I be in tech and be an artist or a musician?” It’s a really beautiful group. I love being a part of it. I do a lot of onboarding. I introduce people to the group, and I talk to them, and I help them with their LinkedIn profiles and their resumes and stuff. It’s a nice space to kind of encourage artists to remind them also that they’re smart, that we are all capable of doing more than we all think that we can do. It’s a cool group. I’m very proud to be a part of it. Joseph: That sounds like a wonderful initiative. I know you have your hands full with a lot of different things right now. So, I just wanted to thank you again for telling us more about your former life as a Broadway musical performer, your transition into the software engineering world, and also the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. So, best of luck with your role there at Spotify, the mentorship works you’re doing, and also everything else you have going on personally right now. Carla: [44:45] Thank you so much for having me.

If you’re like most people I cross paths with out there, talking about your accomplishments or showcasing your achievements may not come that naturally to you. Communicating your successes can feel like you’re bragging or shamelessly self-promoting. Asking for what you want can feel intrusive or presumptuous. And just sharing your own accomplishments with others can feel awkward or forced. At the same time, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you run the risk of disappearing into the background. If you don’t drive visibility for your work, no one may be aware of your accomplishments. And if you don’t ask for what you want, opportunities are unlikely to just fall into your lap. In episode 98 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Claudia Bruce-Quartey, a political scientist turned key account manager shares her thoughts on why making a career change often involves a leap of faith and why you have to be the one to advocate for what you want. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the delicate balance between modesty and self-advocacy during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Change Insights Focus on the things you can control, not those you cannot. Sometimes, you just have to take a leap of faith in your career and jump. The onus is on you to make yourself seen and heard in your career. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to pick one aspect of your work that you feel deserves more support . . . and to advocate for it. Maybe it’s a project you feel deserves more visibility within your organization. Or an overdue promotion you feel is worth getting onto your manager’s radar. Or a piece of career news you’ve been keeping to yourself but want to share with your network. Whatever it is, take ownership of your career and proactively promote it. If you don’t advocate for it, you can be sure others won’t either. And you might just be surprised how people respond. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:44 Discussion with Claudia Bruce-Quartey 00:42:38 Mental Fuel 00:48:45 Listener Challenge 00:49:25 Wrap Up About Claudia Bruce-Quartey Claudia Bruce-Quartey has followed a career path that’s required self-advocacy throughout. Raised in Germany as a first-generation immigrant after her parents moved there from Ghana, Claudia eventually completed her Master’s Degree in Public Administration in France and most recently relocated to Switzerland. Originally a political scientist with no knowledge of IT, Claudia’s now a Key Account Manager for the software company Red Hat. She also passionately works with underrepresented youth and female professionals to help them confidently speak about their accomplishments and ask for what they want in their careers. With over 8 years of experience in the Swiss Tech industry, Claudia describes herself as an agent for transformation, on a mission to create equal representation and opportunities. She’s also the author of the book My Hair, My Choice, a book that encourages young children to understand that being unique and different is great. Follow Claudia on LinkedIn and Instagram. Join her newsletter to access that worksheet she mentioned during our conversation and learn more about how to cultivate confidence at work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch The Grammarly app finds and corrects spelling and grammar mistakes to make your writing more clear and concise, leveraging AI to make suggestions based on your context and preferred writing style. I use it nearly every day myself across all my desktop applications, Office documents, and mobile device. Download Grammarly for free at CareerRelaunch.net/Grammarly. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Fairground Podington Bear – Floating in Space Podington Bear – Three Colors Podington Bear – Big Blue Podington Bear – Sunbeam Podington Bear – Sidecar Bio Unit – Docking Episode’s Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Claudia. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is so great to talk to you on this show. Claudia: [03:50] Hi, Joseph. Thank you so much for having me. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s get started by first of all talking about what you have been focused on at this moment, in both your personal and professional life. What’s been keeping you busy? Claudia: [04:04] My children. First and foremost, I’m a mother. I’m a mother of two. We are about to head into the big summer break. This is what’s keeping me busy. Also, preparing everything at work in order to make the transition to holidays as smooth as possible. I am a key count manager working for a major open-source software company in Switzerland, and this is kind of my main job. Secondly, I help women advocate for themselves. That’s what I do passionately and I love doing that. So, these are the three key things that are keeping me busy. If not, it’s summertime, I love going out with my bike. Joseph: Sounds good. Let’s take those one at a time here. You said mother of two, you got summer vacation coming up. How do you balance your ongoing demands as a key account manager there at Red Hat? With idea that I’m assuming, your kids are not going to be in school most of the day. How do you balance that on a practical and personal level? Claudia: [05:02] I think the key word here is flexibility. And then, my partner, of course, helps me out a lot with regard to how we manage our schedules. The key part here is really flexibility. Being able to do remote. The pandemic has done us, actually somehow, a great favor in understanding that you can do your most effective work without having to be on-site every single time. That’s one thing. And then, setting the expectations with customers, but also at home, and setting boundaries. I think this is the most important part. Joseph: Before we go back into your past, can you also explain just a little bit about what you do as a key account manager for Red Hat? What’s your day-to-day look like? Claudia: [05:49] The easiest part to say is that I work in sales. I’m a key account manager. As a key account manager, my day-to-day job consists of helping customers through digital transformation. Every customer today needs to be at the forefront of innovation, at the forefront of their competition, and be successful. That is through tech and through IT. My job as a key account manager is that I support roughly about six accounts on this transformation with the solution to their open-source solution that provides. The easiest way to understand is that everything that happens in the background. When things run smoothly, that’s how Red Hat provides its services. When something breaks, you know where to find us. That’s the easiest way to describe it. Joseph: Well, I know that you haven’t always been a key account manager for Red Hat. You haven’t always worked in sales. In fact, you are in a very, very different sector before. I would love to hear more about your time working in political science when you started off your career. And then, we can move forward from there. Maybe the best way to start here is just to get an understanding of, how did you get interested in political science originally? Claudia: [07:02] That’s true. I never even anticipated being in sales or being in the tech industry. Everything that had to do with STEM, it was repellent to me. So, when I graduated and then started studying in 2010, for me, naturally, I gravitated towards international organizations, and then also policies. Not per se, being involved in politics. That’s a big misconception for anyone that thinks, “Okay. You’re going to political science to become a politician.” It’s not that. For me, it was really integrating international organizations, being in international relations, the United Nations or European Union, being in one of these institutions. With that being said, there were no sales involved; there was no tech involved or so I thought. That was kind of where I started off and where I really found myself. I thought that this would be my career. Joseph: Now, I was just in Washington, DC last month, Claudia. I used to live and work there many years ago.  Have you been to DC before? Claudia: [08:15] I’ve been to DC last year. Joseph: Okay. You’ve been there recently. One of the things you might notice about DC is it’s one of those places where the professional scene is kind of unique compared to other major cities. Because there are people there who certainly work in the more traditional corporate for-profit world, but you’ve got a lot of professionals there. Especially, young professionals — me, including, when I lived there, who are much more focused on the non-profit, governmental, more social policy-type, cause-based organizations. So, that’s what I would describe as a major split in the professional world. Why were you originally drawn to that world, and not initially the more corporate-like, more for-profit side of the professional world? Claudia: [09:05] Some is also part of my heritage. I’m originally from Ghana. I was born and raised in Hanover, Germany. For me, I wanted to create an impact that would either help advance our community or help advance Africa, in general. That’s why also, international relations was so important to me to be able to shape policies or shape programs that would help advance Africa as a whole. More importantly, also Ghana, and then also the Ghanaian community within Hanover. So, that is the reason why I was rather drawn towards that. Also 2010, 2012, there were lots of different programs out there, especially for young people. For me, I was a youth mentor also. Everything and anything around helping the youth out, and with regards to their professional development, with regards to their integration into society, is something I was very, very much drawn to. I wanted to professionalize that. The European Union, at that point in time, first of all, there were not a lot of people that looked like me inside of this organization. So, for me, it was really, “Okay, I can make an impact here with my voice and also with my work.” So, that’s the reason why I was naturally drawn to that. Joseph: How were those early days for you as you were looking for professional opportunities in that space? How did that transpire for you? Claudia: [10:27] Lots of these opportunities come through either connections or just sheer hard work. Because for me, I had different types of opportunities, of course. Lots of them were either very, very short-term or were entry-level positions. For example, I used I lived also in Paris during my studies. At the same time, I was working. I was working for a governmental institution over there. It was very short-lived, number one. It was faced by multiple short-lived opportunities, that’s one thing. Secondly, the pay wasn’t also the best, to be transparent. I was looking at myself and the vision that I had created about myself of what it means to be what I thought would be successful, and that was not it. To have a master’s degree and still be struggling in finding a real proper job and a long-term job. This is kind of also where I was really questioning myself whether or not this is the path that I want to take. Even though I love it, I wasn’t sure whether my love, my passion for the field would sustain me there. Joseph: That’s really interesting, Claudia. One of the things I hear from people as they are either embarking on a new career path or even just the career path they had thought they wanted to go on is sometimes, the going is a bit rough and it’s a bit bumpy. I suppose one of the decisions you have to make is, do I keep trying to make it in this industry or do I walk away and do something else? How did you think about that? How could you tell when you should keep trying and when you should call it quits? Claudia: [12:12] That’s very much a good question because I struggled with that a lot. Because I was looking, “Okay. What are the skills that I can actually apply within this industry or within the field I was working in?” So, I speak five languages. Maybe anything around languages, and could help sort of translation jobs. For example, I was one in more facilitating conferences. So, there are a lot of different areas actually within the field, which is great. The field is very rich. Again, finding these opportunities, at least for me, posts to be a challenge. As I was also growing, and graduating, life caved in. I got married. Also, I had a baby. This is what’s really the turning point for me. To get an understanding is that, “Okay. First, I’m single and I can hustle.” But, with someone else in this world where she depends completely on you, on you to make it happen, things shifted very quickly for me. To me, the turning point was in 2015, when I had been in a position that absolutely had nothing to do with what I had studied. It was an entry-level sales position. I got to the realization, “This cannot be it. There has to be a better way.” To be honest, I didn’t know what this looked like. I certainly didn’t think that it was IT. I just knew something else has to come up for me. Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition that you went through here. Things are taking a little bit longer than maybe you had expected to gain some traction in the political science world. You have gotten married. You’ve got a baby. Now, you’re feeling like the phase of life that you’re in right now might require you to reconsider your career options. Take me through the transition as you went from what was political science to then eventually a sales role. The first question I have about this is, how easy was it for you to let go of the idea of pursuing political science? Claudia: [14:14] That was very difficult. Because I chose political science after having taken a break from my studies for a year. So, when I did my A-Level degree, I went to France for a year to find myself, to find what it is that I want to do. I knew, again, nothing about STEM. I knew the law wouldn’t cut it. Because also in Ghanaian communities, either you become a lawyer, a doctor, or a banker. These are the three career paths that you’re open with. Anything else, we don’t know, so you don’t pursue it. So, I have to find something where I can still become successful, and political science was that field where I could bring so much of my abilities into it. And then, studying it, doing my bachelor’s degree, doing my master’s degree in France, and then not finding a job in which I could thrive, not finding ground in a field that I had studied and had worked in for some time was very tough. I was like, “Now, I’m out of my studies, I need to have a proper job. I need to have a contract.” It was the very basic necessities of, I have a job, I have a contract, there’s a long-term thing and I see myself progressing in that career. I didn’t see that. Then, I was like, “Okay. Will I keep doing things that are not working and dragging my entire family into it? Or, will I start opening up my eyes towards opportunities that are out there?” So, I started then, not randomly, I would say more openly applying to jobs that were outside of my field. Some had the sales component to it but definitely not the role that I’m currently in and the career I’m currently pursuing. Joseph: I know along the way, if I’ve got the timing right here, I’m just going to broadly describe them, as the stop-gap or like transitional hold-yourself-over-for-a-while jobs. Claudia: [16:16] Yes, lots of things. Joseph: Can you give me a sampling of what were some of the other jobs you took just to make ends meet, just to hold you over while you figured this out? Claudia: [16:23] Wait tables. I was a waitress. I was teaching children at some point in time. I did translation jobs along the way. I help people with some administrative work also. It’s really little petty jobs that kept me along the way, that kept me afloat. I was a tour guide for a very, very short amount of time. Joseph: In France? Claudia: [16:48] In France, right. What are the odds, right? I’m from Hanover, Germany. I am Ghanaian. I go to France and became a tour guide. It was a very, very short amount of time. Somebody couldn’t fill the role, so I hopped in. I also promoted flyers. Different kinds of brands and shops and just works outside giving out flyers and promoting flyers. The accumulation of that brought more and more frustration, very much frustration. Because it wasn’t steady. There was no strategy behind it. It was just, “Okay. What am I doing to get to the next paycheck?” To me, that wasn’t it. I just had a much bigger vision about myself and where I wanted to see my family than what I was currently doing. Joseph: How long did that period last for you? Claudia: [17:40] Right after my pregnancy, I think about a year and a half. To me, it was an eternity. Joseph: Yeah. I’ve had those phases in my career also. I have actually waited tables briefly also. I worked in a retail store for a while. It can feel like a very long time, these transitional periods. Even though we’re talking a few months to a year, it can feel like an eternity. You eventually decided to do a masters in France, as I understand it. What did pursuing an advanced degree allow you to do? Claudia: [18:15] In 2010, exactly, I was still pursuing a career in political science. I had not let go of that idea. I thought, “All right. Well, let me have an advanced degree. Let me have it in a foreign country to open up my chance to be considered for roads inside of the European Union, inside of the big NGOs.” Because this was the profile that they were looking for. Somebody that is international, versatile, has done several things and understands the system. To me, it was like, “Oh, great!” It opened up opportunities. Again, being able to work in some of the French institutions, in different cities, in Paris. At the end of the day, it all didn’t help me to really build the career that I was looking for. It helped me today, absolutely. Because I think all of the experiences that I made moving from Germany to France and then coming here to Switzerland, have absolutely helped me. Because I know today, for a fact, that it is my stop in France that helped make the transition to Switzerland very smoothly because I speak French. Joseph: So, how did you eventually make your foray into the tech industry and the sales role? What was the first breakthrough for you in that sector? Claudia: [19:37] There was a program that was being run by Cisco. Cisco, at that point in time, was looking for junior sales representatives. The way it was conveyed to me was, “Hey! Yes, this is a tech industry, but look at all the things that IT touches.” This is where I started to listen up. I was like, “Hey, it’s true.” To me, the perception of tech was you have to code; you have to be a nerd. When I was studying, the people that I saw pursuing anything in tech or engineering were nerds. When they opened up their textbooks, I understood absolutely nothing. This is not the field that I want to be in. But this program was completely different. This program was something that I was already doing but just realized was sales. In every type of industry or every type of job also that I got, and being qualified/overqualified, I was still able to sell myself somehow and sell the fact that I’m the best candidate for this position. That type of presentation skills, that type of sales skills, helped me then make the transition. Again, it was, someone saw my CV, and being headhunted. Someone saw my CV and said, “Hey. We believe you’ll be great in this industry. You would be great for this particular company.” I just gave it my all. I just gave it my all. I said, “Okay. I have nothing to lose at this point in time. I am jobless, so let me go.” Joseph: Before we started recording, Claudia, when we spoke before, you had said that navigating careers for women can be quite lonely, costly, and scary, without a support system or without some sort of a road map. What were those early days like for you in a brand-new industry in tech, in sales? Do you remember what it was like? Claudia: [21:34] In Switzerland? Joseph: Yes, in Switzerland. Claudia: [21:38] Yes in Switzerland, definitely. It was definitely a moment. The beginning was very exciting. Going through all of the interviews, and being given the prospect of joining an industry that gives you the chance to establish a career. That was what I was going for, the idea that I had. I didn’t know what I actually signed up for. I didn’t know that I was signing up for an industry that was chronically underrepresented by women, and then women that look like me. Women that were at the intersection of women, Black, mothers. So, I fell into a very, very traditional company then at that point in time. It was, yes, Cisco, but there was a partner in between. So, I worked with a partner organization. Yes, even though there were small bits of support, it was very lonely and very scary. Because I had no knowledge and no background in IT. I had no knowledge, and no background in sales, besides the academy and the sales program that I went through. It was pretty much that I was pushed into the cold water to start doing the job. Which, in the end, helped me get into the job and get the ropes of this job much faster. It is because, naturally, I’m a person that doesn’t give up easily. I can tell you that I shed lots of tears. I think six months into Switzerland, I was very much doubting whether or not this was the right decision to take, to make, and to bring my family here. Joseph: This is probably a hard question to answer but, how much of that challenge do you feel you attribute to just the fact of being in a completely new industry? How much of that do you attribute to being an underrepresented minority female in the tech industry? Claudia: [23:22] Sometimes, one or the other plays more. Because, in the beginning, again, I went in with an open mind. I didn’t go in with, “Okay. I’m a woman. I don’t see a lot of women here, so this might be it.” I was trying to understand what will this industry give me and how can I apply my knowledge, and be more knowledgeable. Because in my understanding, if you become more knowledgeable, things will get easier. That was, for me, the baseline. What can I do professionally? What can I control? The fact that I’m a woman, or I’m a Black woman, or a mother; these are things I cannot control. So, I focus on the things that I can control. When you then go up the industry, move up the ladder, and then there are still certain glass ceilings that you face, there’s where you start questioning. When you walk into every single room and you’re the first or the only. When you are being questioned on certain things that your male colleagues are not being questioned on. When you face challenges that you make clearly don’t even recognize as challenges. Here’s where you stop asking yourself, “Hey, is this normal or is this because I’m a woman?” So, yes, in the beginning, it was really the knowledge gap. Then, eventually, very quickly, I understood it is not just knowledge. It’s really very much also the fact that, surely, there are not enough women here. Joseph: I do want to come back to this topic toward the end of our conversation. Because I think it’s an important one that navigating, not only being a minority in terms of your experience, but also minority in terms of how you look, where you’re from, and being underrepresented in that way. Right now, I would be interested to hear about the evolution of your career in the face of all this challenge, you did manage to actually progress and navigate your way through the tech sales world. Can you describe what was the evolution like for you going from that first role at Cisco to what you’re now doing for Red Hat? Claudia: [25:20] I started really at the bottom. Meaning, I was a business development representative. Even though my title was account manager, my role was entitled to bring in new business. This is really business development. Meaning, cold calling, prospecting all these types of things. And then, further down the line, there was the evolution in account management after I had gained knowledge, after I had understood really how do our solutions help our customers, and how can we also help broaden the market. I started really with small and mid-sized companies, to prospect on them. And then, further down the line, I became an account manager properly for mid-sized companies. Also, completely leading the French-speaking market for the company I was then working with. Also, as a second — this is where really everything that I learned within politics science came in, was building their relationship with our external partners. That was very much important also in transitioning into that role solidifying that relationship that we had with external partners. Joseph: That’s interesting you mentioned political science. Because, obviously, one of the major challenges and I guess opportunities in any organization is to be able to navigate the politics of the organization. I know you mentioned that you could feel it playing out in your current workplace. Can you just share more details on how did that training and education in political science end up benefiting you in a completely, and seemingly, unrelated industry? Claudia: [26:57] One major factor that attributes to the success I find currently, and also the rewards that I find currently, is my ability to communicate, my ability to present in complex environments and situations, and build the bridge between how a tech solution can help the business. That’s one thing. Within political science, mostly also, you have lots of data. When you go through lots of data sets, you have to make sense. You have to make sense with the data that you have for different stakeholders. This is also something that I do day-to-day; convincing stakeholders, internally and externally. In external, the solution that we’re providing is the best one. So, I would say communication, definitely. Stakeholder relationship also, secondly. And then, reading the room. As in something I would even say, very intuitively, understanding the dynamics of the room. Understanding, “Okay. Can you bring this to the table or not? Can you have this discussion right now or not? Or do you need to convince different stakeholders individually before you come to the bigger table?” This is very much politics. Joseph: Well, before we talk about a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey, Claudia, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you a little bit more about your life in sales. For anybody who’s interested in switching into sales, and maybe this is someone who has had zero exposure to sales, has maybe had no experience in sales, what’s something that you think they should know that you wished you had known about the world of sales before making the decision to pursue that route? Claudia: [28:44] I think one thing that I encourage everyone to do is first, just give it a try. There’s a huge misconception about what sales is. We have sleazy car salesmen or women that are trying to oversell you and underdeliver. But, in essence, professional selling, there’s an art and there’s a science to it that entails lots of different elements. Such as negotiation skills, communication skills, and consulting. It is really the consultative approach that, to me, was very appealing inside this industry. If you look at the challenges that customers and companies face today in order to serve their customers better, it is through technology that we help them advance. If you have any type of transversal skill; such as being a good writer, being a good communicator, being a mathematician also, any of these transversal skills that they have. So, being very analytical, being structured. These are the types of characteristics, hard skills, and soft skills, that are being currently looked out for at companies. The most important lesson is just give it a try. Don’t limit yourself. Joseph: That’s a good point, Claudia. I don’t know if I told you this before, but many years ago, I sold life insurance for a large financial institution in Hawaii. I have to say before I went into sales — and this is coming from somebody who was going to pursue a career in medicine. I would say that I did have a sort of a negative perception of the sales industry. Like, pushing products and services onto people, trying to convince and persuade people to buy things they don’t really need. I have to say, I really had my eyes opened when I was in that sales internship. That it is a lot of times about helping people. It’s about helping people identify what can actually benefit them in their right careers. What’s one or two skills that you feel you’ve actually developed as someone in sales that you feel have been especially important to you, in both your professional life but also in your personal life? Claudia: [30:54] Being able to help people. We have the notion, or at least, I have the notion that if we help people, it has to be non-profit. You cannot help people if you are for profit. Being in a professional sales field can show me, first of all, it is your job to be able to help people. If you want to do it right, you really have to get an understanding of what is currently going on in an industry and how your solution can help them. So, very much developing that skill of understanding, that listening skill, was something that I had developed in the past. Being in this industry for so long and for the past eight years has really helped me develop that skill even further down the line. Also, just keep up with the trends of what is going on in your field.  I mean, what are the next tech trends? What is the next way? What are the next challenges that companies will be facing? These are the things that I have developed even furthermore. Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, Claudia, are just some of the key takeaways that you’ve had from your career change journey. I know that one of the things you’re passionate about is the idea that women and underrepresented minorities should advocate for themselves and to speak about their accomplishments in a way that raises their profiles within their current organization and beyond. You had shared a few takeaways from your journey with me before we started speaking. I was hoping we could go through them one at a time. You shared three with me. First, you mentioned that courage is especially important for women. Tell me more about what you mean by that. Claudia: [32:36] I believe courage is so important because, especially when you are from an underrepresented group, I mean women, minority, whatever it is. At times, speaking up for yourself and speaking about accomplishments is very difficult. In the absence of confidence, what do you have? There’s fear and there is a limiting belief. So, how do you overcome that? It is by finding courage and just making the jump. That’s why courage is so important. Because at times, you just don’t have the elements of confidence. For me, that was it. I didn’t have the elements of confidence that I could succeed in an industry, succeed in a role, succeed in a country, that I knew nothing about. So, the only thing that I was left with was my courage to just take a leap of faith, jump, and see what is going to happen. That is why I encourage everyone just find it within you to jump. Joseph: What are a couple of ways that you feel people can advocate for themselves? You had mentioned to me before we start recording that you got to advocate for your accomplishments, and you’ve got to successfully position yourself so that you can be considered for promotion, raises, and opportunities. Claudia: [33:52] Absolutely. I think one of the most important things is to write down every single week — and I’m going to make it very actionable because this is one thing I do. It’s that every single week, block your calendar for 20 minutes and write down 10 things about why you are great, of the things that you do very well. Whether it’s a presentation that you failed; whether it is a co-worker that you helped out; or whether it is a new business that you brought in. Write those things down. Because the misconception is that people see you. The wake-up call is people don’t see you. Especially, with women, we work and work and work, because we think somebody will see us. But, one thing I’ve seen is that, when we work hard in school, we get good grades. When you transmit that same mindset into the workplace, you get frustrated and burnt out because people simply don’t see you. People have their own things on their plate. So, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you’ll be passed by promotions, and salary increases. So many opportunities will just pass you by because you’re not making yourself seen, known, and heard. So, it is your job to really write down those accomplishments, set a one-to-one with your manager, and say, “Here are the three things that I’ve done. Here are the five things that I’ve done that’s helped advance the company. Do you notice, first of all? Can we maybe think about a promotion? Can we talk about a salary increase? Can we talk about my professional growth inside this organization?” Joseph: Yeah. It’s a really good tip, Claudia. As you were sharing that story, I was just thinking about — this might not seem like it’s related. Actually, I was on an airplane yesterday and there were these guys who were trying to catch a connecting flight to South Africa. We were landing in London, and our plane was delayed. They were just standing there in line, and a woman behind him actually said, “Why don’t you just ask people if they can let you through?” Because they were just standing there. They did. And then, people let them through. She was saying, “I don’t know why they didn’t ask for that earlier?” I do think it’s important to not assume that people know what you want but to actually verbalize it, articulate it, and be very specific about what you’re looking for. Claudia: [36:00] We think that people will say no. Very specifically, HBR released a study on how women negotiate. The sad truth about this is women negotiate four times less than men, and women start also with a much lesser salary than men. So, what did accumulate to is that not just are you leaving money on the table, but you’re also leaving money out of your pension, out of any dream that you can aspire to. But, simply by asking, just having the courage to ask, you can really up your salary in a very easy way. Without having to learn the ins and outs of negotiation skills, but just simply asking. Joseph: The third and final point here is that you mentioned the currency for pivoting careers is your professional network. What would you like people to know about the importance of their professional relationships? Claudia: [37:01] This is something I learned very late in my career because one that that, retrospectively, I believe would have made my transition within political science way easier would have been if I had an established network. I did not have any establishment program. Within my family or my close immediates, there was no one that was in the industry I was in, the working industry that I wanted. In IT, in the first place, also no. One thing that helped me a lot was building up a professional network. That network became really my currency with regard to opportunities; job opportunities, and professional development. So, I encourage each and everyone, especially women, to build up that network as soon as possible, if you haven’t done so. If you’re looking especially to pivot into careers, or transition into different careers, such as how we doing now. The easiest way is to reach out to someone in a career that you’re interested in, that is completely different from the one that you are in currently and to have a conversation. Ask, “Okay. What is your day-to-day? How do you become successful in this role? What does it take? You might find that it’s not as far-fetched as you think. That career transition can become much easier and much smoother than if you’re just all by yourself and trying to figure things out all by yourself. Joseph: I was hoping to wrap up by asking you a couple of final questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. Also, I want to ask you about your book. What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself now that you have successfully broken into the tech industry as someone who, at least on the surface, initially, maybe didn’t seem like you had any business being in that industry? Claudia: [38:43] I learned about myself that I have an innate value, and that value is growth. I’ll find to grow in no matter what industry. To me, in the beginning, it was just sheer frustration. Why can’t I make it? Why can’t I become successful? It’s because I had the value of growth. So, today, if I approach companies, this is the first thing that I bring onto the table. What are the possibilities in which I can grow? Because I’ll find them. If I don’t find them inside, I’ll find them outside. That’s I think the biggest lesson. The second one is very much that if I have courage and I stop limiting my beliefs, I can achieve what I want to achieve. I can also reach out to ask other people for help, and that is not a bad thing to do. I don’t have to figure it all out by myself. Joseph: You also wrote a book called, My Hair, My Choice. What’s that book about? Claudia: [39:36] The book, My Hair, My Choice, is a book I wrote for my daughter when she was around 7 years old. She had an encounter at school that wasn’t so pleasant about her hair, about the afro hair that she has. I had that experience too when I was much younger. I wanted to give my daughter an empowering narrative. Because I understand that there will be times when she has to become an ally for herself where nobody will stand up such as when she added incidents in school, and I wanted to give her something that will remind her of her beauty and her strength. So, the book, My Hair, My Choice, is that narrative that she can carry her hair any way she wants, and this is her power, her superpower.  Being different is completely normal and being different is your choice. That’s why the book, “My Hair, My Choice,” was written. Joseph: I’m definitely going to check that out. We will include a link to that book in the show notes. Where can people go, Claudia, to learn more about you, and also how they can advocate for themselves in the workplace? Claudia: [40:39] The easiest way that I hang around lot on LinkedIn. You can connect with me at “Claudia Bruce Quartey,” LinkedIn. You connect with me also on my website. I’d be happy to chat with you. Yeah, you mentioned that, in order to help you advocate for yourself, I developed a guide, a very short sweet guide that you can download in which you can write down what other things that make you remarkable, what are the things that make you great, and start advocating for yourself. Joseph: We’ll include a link to that resource also in the show notes. I just really wanted to thank you so much for your generosity in giving us some of your time today and telling us more about your life as a key account manager, how you broke into that industry, and also just the importance of advocating for yourself in the workplace. Especially, if you’re someone who is coming from an underrepresented background. Best of luck to you, Claudia, with all of your work there at Red Hat. I hope it continues to go well for you. Claudia: [41:40] Thank you so much, Joseph, for having me.

When you’re not happy with your job, deciding to make a career change may seem more straightforward. However, when things are going well, do you keep riding the wave or make the leap and try something new? In episode 97 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Aisling Drennan, a Riverdance Irish dancer turned artist shares her thoughts on shifting from an international stage to an art studio. We’ll discuss the deeply personal choice of when to walk away from an established career, the inevitable challenges of starting anything new, and the importance of championing your own work. I also share some thoughts on when you can tell the time has come to move on during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Change Insights You can’t know everything from the start. You have to figure it out along the way. It’s about giving yourself time and accepting the inevitable mistakes along the way You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion of your own work and ambition. If making a career change was easy, everyone would be doing it. You have to constantly ask yourself, is this what I want to do? If yes, you must find a way to make this work. Deciding exactly when to leave your job behind is a very personal choice. On the one hand, you could leave on a high note, knowing you may still have left to give and gain. On the other, you could leave after you feel like you’ve given everything you can, although it can result in dissatisfaction, burnout, and even resentment. Expect the early days to be tough. Starting is often the hardest phase when you’re embarking on a new career path. However, if you know you’re doing what you want to do, with enough hard work and tenacity, you’ll turn a corner. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:05 – Discussion with Aisling Drennan 00:45:54 – Mental Fuel 00:51:10 – Listener Challenge 00:51:43 – Wrap Up Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I discussed how to decide whether the time has come to pursue another path in your career. Consider whether you have: A) anything else to gain, B) more you could give, C) more you actually want to give. The choice is ultimately yours. I just encourage you to not overextend yourself too much and to walk away once you feel that deep down, the time is right to move on. About Aisling Drennan, Abstract Expressionist Painter Aisling Drennan used to be a former professional Irish dancer with Riverdance, performing internationally for almost a decade with her sketchbook and paint box in her suitcase. Originally from County Clare, Ireland, she dedicated the earlier parts of her life touring around the world, and dancing professionally. However, she eventually began a gradual, steady career transition into the world of art. She’s now a full-time, abstract expressionist painter, balancing her artistic endeavors with motherhood after the birth of her son in early 2022. Based in London, she now creates her artwork at Delta House Studios, where you can check out her paintings along with work from several other artists. Most recently Aisling Drennan’s work was selected for The Royal Cambrian Academy of Art’s annual exhibition (2023) & Gordan Ramsay’s new restaurant in the Savoy Hotel, London (2021). Drennan was an artist in residence at Cill Rialaig Artists Centre (2019), and her work has been shortlisted for the John Moore’s painting prize (2018). She was Fujitsu’s featured artist for a global media campaign (2017) and has received the Freyer Award for excellence in contemporary painting from the Royal Dublin Society of Arts (2011). Drennan has been noted by State magazine as “one to watch” Aisling will be exhibiting her art at The Other Art Fair in London, June 29 – July 2. To meet her and check out her paintings, stop by to see her there at Stand 92. Learn more about Aisling, watch her painting in action, and follow her on Instagram. https://youtu.be/RgxqltqRnuU Also, if you’ve never seen Riverdance which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary of touring, this clip gives you a little taste of the show! https://youtu.be/wybiE6Xv_z8 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 600,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch® listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Leimoti – Leave a Mark Owen Meyers – Horisont Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Sepia Scott Holmes Music – Shimmer Bio Unit – Fairground Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Good morning, Aisling. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. I’m really excited to talk with you about your time both as a dancer and also now as an artist. Aisling: [03:17] Good morning, Joseph. I am very pleased to be here chatting with you. It’s always such a pleasure when people have an interest in what I do, so thank you. Joseph: Well, let’s jump into it. Let’s talk, first of all, about what you have been focused on right now in your career and your life. What has been keeping you busy both personally and also professionally? Aisling: [03:37] I’ve just finished a new series of paintings. They were just shown last weekend because I’ve got a studio at Delta House Studios in Cyprus, London. We do open studio events twice a year. One in June, one in October, where everybody can come along, meet the maker, see where the work is made. So, it’s finishing new work for that. It’s been pretty busy. And then, I have a couple of things coming up, career-wise. I’m doing the other art fair at the end of the month. I’ve got a couple of shows lined up for the winter, and a few fun things in between. And then, personally, things are good. I have a one-year-old. It’s keeping me very busy. I suppose I’ve had a big life change of being pregnant and given birth, having a baby, coming back to work, and finding all that balance. It’s been a real roller coaster but in the best way and sort of finding my feet again. I guess you lose your identity a bit, and then you come back into it. I feel like I’ve just come back to finding my identity, getting back into painting, back into the studio, and getting everything moving again. Joseph: Two questions on a couple of things you just mentioned there. First of all, you mentioned you’re a new mother. What have you found to be the biggest challenge around balancing parenting with your work as an artist? Aisling: [04:56] I have my own business. So, if I’m not working on it, nobody else is doing it. I think it was very important to me to get back into the studio and keep things running while I was managing a newborn and everything that comes along with that so much. I think I was probably a wee bit optimistic because I came back to work when my son, Caolàn, was four months old. I thought, “It’d be fine! I’ll do it. It’s grand.” It didn’t really work out like that. I guess that’s one of the things I’ve learned that your time is no longer just your time. Your time has to be shared and prioritize with him. As we, my husband and I, have moved along, because he has his own business as well, we’ve managed to juggle. Actually, that’s a real good thing about each of us having our own business. We’re not set to somebody else’s time. It’s purely our time so we can manage things around the baby, which is quite good. That, and I think the identity thing, which I wasn’t prepared for because you step into a whole new pair of shoes being a mother and you get lost in that because you’re learning so much. And then, you come back into your work, which I love what I do. I’ve really worked hard to get to where I am. And then, you have to find it all again. You have to find yourself. It’s sort of an interesting new path. Like, I’m the same person but I’m different. I’m still finding my way around that. Joseph: It is a challenge flipping back and forth between your identity as a mother, and also your identity as a professional. And, being able to go back and forth multiple times within the same day can be quite jarring. Aisling: [06:37] Quite jarring. I think it’s all because this is like my studio, and my painting, my art practice is my — I don’t want to say my “other child,” that sounds the wrong thing. But, it’s not like I’m going to work for somebody else. This is very much mine. It’s all that more important to me. It keeps moving, and progressing, and developing. I think in the long term, that’s going to be such a good lesson for Caolàn as he grows up and he sees what me and his dad do. Because my husband’s an architect, so he has his own practice as well in his own studio. I think it’ll all be good but we’re just finding our way, which is exciting as well. I mean, look, this is the essence of life, isn’t it? You just figure it all out as you go. Joseph: Well, I want to get back into also your professional life here. I know you mentioned you’re an artist. What kind of artist are you, and what do you enjoy doing as an artist? Aisling: [07:26] I am an abstract expressionist painter. My work would be rooted in the materiality of paint. That would mean just literally getting stuck into the wonderful nuances of paint, and what you can do with it, and how you can play with it, and manipulate it. I won an Irish residency in 2019 that completely changed the direction of my work. All my work is now based on rock landscapes, extracting from those spaces. These are landscapes back in Ireland. Obviously, I’m from Ireland. You can tell from my accent. I go and sit on-site and make studies and bring them back into my studio here in London, and literally, abstract from them. It’s a very processed way of working. Because I’ve just finished this new series of work, I’m still finding my feet with discussing it, which is a weird thing. Because you think of it all visually in your head, and then you have to vocalize that when you’re talking about it, so it’s an ongoing thing. Joseph: I think art is probably one of the hardest things to describe in words to others. Just by definition, it is difficult to put into words. Aisling: [08:34] Yeah. Well, that’s why like what I mentioned at the top of the conversation, something like open studios is great. Because you get people coming into your studio, and you see their reaction straight off, or they ask you questions that you may not have considered yourself. It’s a wonderful way to interact with the work and with people and build those relationships. If you’re selling through a gallery, you don’t get that same conversation or connection, let’s say. It was wonderful with this new series of work to have people come in and sort of look at it differently from how I’m looking at it. Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to the commercial dynamics of being an artist. You mentioned gallery versus studio versus art show. I do want to get back into that toward the end of the conversation. Right now, what I’d be very interested in doing is going back in time. Because I know you haven’t always been an abstract expressionist painter. You were once a professional Irish dancer. Can you tell us a little bit about your life as a dancer? I suppose the best place to start here is to talk about where you grew up, and what are some of the things you remember about your childhood growing up in Ireland. Aisling: [09:43] Oh, gosh! I had an amazing childhood in Ireland. I grew up in rural West Coast Ireland. County Clare, North County Clare. Right on the Atlantic Ocean. Just very free, very open, very fresh childhood. Typically, I don’t know if it’s the same now, but growing up in the ’80s Ireland, everyone who went to school there would be an Irish dancing teacher that would come into the school and teach the basics. It was sort of like your physical education in a sense. Both of my parents were dancers. So, they brought my sisters and I along to Irish dancing classes. That’s where it began really. Joseph: Were they professional dancers? Aisling: [10:21] No. It’s the type of thing particularly I think, like where I’m from in Ireland. My parents are both from the west of Ireland as well. Culturally, it will be very normal that like somebody would dance, or somebody would sing, or play an instrument, or something like that. My parents had a hotel and a bar, so there was always music and dancing and something performative going on. You were just always expected to get up and do whatever you were able to do. My parents were both dancers, so there was always dancing in the bar. I just grew up with it very naturally, which is totally normal for that part of Ireland. Then, I started going to Irish dancing classes and started competing. At the time, there was absolutely no sense of being professional. A professional Irish dancer, what is that? No! And then, of course, in 1994, Riverdance arrived on the scene at the Eurovision Song Contest. It just changed the landscape, massively. I was 12 I think when Riverdance was on the Eurovision. I remember watching it with my family because it was such a big thing in Ireland, the Eurovision. “I want to do that. What is it? I want to do it. I want to know more.” Riverdance obviously went international, and they started to audition people. I auditioned when I was 16, and I got in. I left school for a year to go on tour. Joseph: For those not familiar with Riverdance, it’s this big theatrical show that features traditional Irish music and dance. It’s sort of like the quintessential Irish dance show. As I understand it and as you alluded to, it was originally this interval act at Eurovision. And then, it turned into this huge stage show production in the early ’90s. And now, it’s been seen by over something like 25 million people and is considered to be one of the most successful dance productions in the world. So, kind of a phenomenon. Could you just explain the audition process to get in there? Aisling: [12:20] Thinking about the phenomenon of it, for just anyone who’s not aware of it, I think I performed in over 400 cities in 50 countries over all the continents. And that was over so many years. Just literally touring and touring and touring. So, it was big, big, big. The audition process was, it’s something that I still think about now because I learned so much on that day. It was in Dublin. I got the train up with my mum from Limerick up to Dublin. The train broke down on the way up. Of course, I was really stressing because we were going to be late for the audition. My mom rang the dance director and said, “We’re so sorry. The train is broken down.” She said, “Don’t worry. There are other people on the same train. They’re coming, too.” There was me, and I think three or four other girls. We were all late going into the audition because of the train. We walked into this massive dance studio, lined with mirrors, and everyone is dressed in black with their number after auditioning, and we were the last ones to come in. We have to audition in front of hundreds of other girls and boys. I just remember thinking, “Oh, gosh. This is so hard!” I think two of the girls that I auditioned with were champions. One was a champion in the year above me, going back to the competitive side. And, one was the champion of my age group, if I remember correctly. They didn’t both get in. I got in. It was just something that I thought about sort of on reflection that like not everybody can always be the champion. You don’t always win everything. You just have to be your own champion, if that makes sense. It was something that I learned from that process. Because I remember feeling very intimidated going in with champion dancers. I had done quite well competitively, but I hadn’t won major titles or anything like that. I was late going into the audition. It was just like a complete, “Oh, gosh! This is the worst day of my life.” At 16, when everything is so dramatic. Joseph: Of all days, yeah. Aisling: [14:17] Yeah. So, we got in. What happened at the time was, you started doing workshops, which were, oh, my God, unbelievably hard. I remember coming out of them and just not being able to walk. My feet were full of blisters and my legs were killing me. It was just a whole different level of training from what I had had competitively like in my dancing school. And then, what they do is at the time is different now. But, at the time, they would send you out on corporate gigs. I was 16 in school, and I was being flown here and there and everywhere to go and perform at all these very fancy events. And then, sitting back down on a Monday morning, “Well, Aisling, how was your weekend?” “Grand.” I was over dancing at that Golden Globe Awards, and they’re used to just meeting all these people. It was mad, but it was great fun. Joseph: How did that work with school? Because you’re 16. I guess for a normal child who’s not performing, you’d be going to classes every day and do whatever you want on the weekend. How did that work with balancing school and being on tour with this huge company? Aisling: [15:22] I didn’t know. I grew up in a very rural, very small part of Ireland. It’s not like there were a whole lot of other distractions. Do you know what I mean? I used to go to school, and then I would come home and have a snack. I would practice my dancing, and then I would do my homework. That was kind of my day-to-day. And then, I will be competing on the weekends. So now, it was just like, “Oh, I might be doing a gig. Like flying off somewhere to do a gig.” It was just, I don’t know, it just rolled into it. And, I was the youngest of three. Joseph: You have two older sisters, right? Aisling: [15:51] Yeah. I have two older sisters. And, one of my sisters ended up in “World of Dance,” which is like another art practice. Joseph: Oh, another big one, yeah. Aisling: [15:59] For my parents, we were just always busy dancing. It was kind of just, you just do it, don’t you? Joseph: Were you thinking that this is what you were going to do after you finished secondary school? Or, what was running through your head during the early years? We’ll get to the later years in a moment. But, just the early years as a child dancing, what were you thinking? How did you think this was going to go? How did you want it to go for you? Or, did you even think about that? Aisling: [16:25] I’ve always been focused and just knew from a very early age what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to get into Riverdance, and then I wanted to go to art school, and that was it. I didn’t want to do anything else. Luckily, it’s worked out that way. Because I know a lot of people, it can take time to find what they want to do and find their place. I was just very focused and just started to put the points in place that I needed to make that happen. Joseph: Was there a reason why you wanted to be dancing as part of the show instead of just going straight to art school if that was what you had wanted to do long term? Aisling: [17:03] I knew there was a window for being a professional dancer. I knew I could go to art school at any time. Like on finishing school, I got my place at art school. I knew, “Okay I’ll just defer that for a couple of years, and I’ll go on tour.” I didn’t know how long I wanted to tour or anything. But, my God, it was just an unbelievable experience. In hindsight, it has fared so much into my art practice. Because I was traveling the world. I was getting paid for it. I was so young. I was on tour with great friends, and all the rest of it. I always had my sketchbook in my suitcase and my boxer paints. I would always go and see the museums, or the galleries, or check out shows because I wanted to educate myself. And because I was in these places, for example, in Mexico City, I went to Frida Kahlo’s house, La Casa Azul. And then, to fast forward a couple of years when I was studying arts, and that coming up in the lecture, and I was like, “Oh, God! I was there.” I saw it. I knew it. I was very privileged to have all these experiences that have fed into my art career and that educated me. It was the starting point of my education as an artist. Joseph: What was a typical month like for you as a dancer on this global tour that you were on? Aisling: [18:25] It depends on what company you’re in. Because Riverdance had like — was it two or three full-time companies? There was one company that would tour America, sort of months and end. And then, there was another company that would do Europe. And then, there would be a company doing like Australia and Asia. It depends on which company you were put into. And then, you might have like a month-long residency somewhere, or you might be moving every two weeks. Again, depending on which company you were in. Typically, it would be week by week. Before you would go out on tour, you would do all your rehearsals in Dublin, and then you would be flown out to where you go, and then there would be more rehearsals set up before the opening city, the opening night. And then, everything just goes to plan because you know everyone knows what they’re doing. Joseph: What do you remember about life as a professional dancer? Let’s talk about both the highs and the lows. Aisling: [19:16] The highs, I think, definitely, I’ll never forget the electricity of doing the final choreography to the — well, I think it was quite iconic, the music of Riverdance. The lights going up, and the audience standing up, and everyone cheering, and just feeling that electricity. It was just amazing. I used to think, “My God! I’m this girl from a very small part of Ireland, and look at me on Broadway,” or “Look at me! I’m in Tokyo,” wherever it was. Making all these people stand up, and feel happy and amazing, and bring them along this wonderful journey that was amazing. I thought that it still stays with me. Lows, I don’t know. I guess, sometimes, it was hard because you were living out of a suitcase for months and months on end. You might miss family events, or the environment sometimes was a little bit tricky. Because you know you were all together all the time. You were working, eating, and socializing. And sometimes, it was a lot. But, I think it was a really good life lesson in managing friendships and learning how to deal with people. Because we were all quite young as well and finding our fate. But, overall, it was an absolute highlight absolutely. Joseph: One of the things, Aisling, I have always wondered about, I suppose as somebody in the audience watching any show is these are you were up there every day every night after night, day after day, I’m assuming performing the same exact choreography pretty much for every show. Did that ever get repetitive? Or, this does not mean to be a leading question. I’ve always just genuinely wondered if it feels repetitive or not. Just because you’re just in the zone when you’re up there. Aisling: [21:07] Yeah. Because I’ve often wondered about Britney Spears. Does she ever get sick of singing “Hit Me, Baby, One More Time”? Joseph: Exactly. Can you really bring the same energy on day one and day 200? Aisling: [21:17] I don’t know. Oh, I just loved it. I really loved it. I mean, if I was still doing it now, I think I’d feel fairly lethargic about doing the same choreography over and over. The music was always amazing. It was with my mates. I was in my 20s. For some people, it may become a little bit repetitive, but no. I love it. I still love it. I hope I will always dance. I don’t dance so much anymore, obviously. I’m a bit past it. The last time I probably danced was at our wedding, and that was amazing. Because I had all my friends from Riverdance there, and we all got up and did Riverdance. Joseph: Oh, wow! Aisling: [21:56] Yeah. I was the entertainment at my own wedding. Joseph: It was a good wedding to go to, yeah. Aisling: [22:02] Yeah. It was amazing for all the guests, obviously. Joseph: I bet. Aisling: [22:05] I loved that I had those friends. We literally grew up on the road together, and we’re still really good friends. We’re all having kids now, and we’re living in different parts of the world but, we’re still connected. I think that’s so special. I’ll have those relationships for the rest of my life. I have them only because of Riverdance. I owe so much to Riverdance. Really, I owe so much to my parents because they took me to Irish dancing classes, and took me to competitions, which then led me to audition for Riverdance. And then, Riverdance gave me this whole opportunity, which has fed into my art career now. Everything has this linked-up effect, the one thing is fed into the other. All creatively as well, which is lovely. Joseph: It sounds like this was an amazing experience. Probably, one that was very coveted, and sought after. Many kids would probably really enjoy it in many ways. I guess if you’re going to be a dancer, then this is one of the shows to be in. At what point did you decide that you needed to or wanted to start exploring something else and maybe revisiting the idea of pursuing art? Aisling: [23:21] I wanted to go to art school and study it. My mom was an artist, so I had grown up around that context. I do clearly remember, I was on an American tour, we had a residency in Boston for a month. And then, every morning in the hotel, they would drop the newspapers at my door. I used to take the paper and I bring it down to the dressing room before the show, sitting in the theatre, doing my hair and makeup. I’d be flicking through the paper, what’s going on in the world? In their art section, there was a caption saying, “Leave the stage before the stage leaves you.” It just resounded with me straight away. It was an interview with a Prima Ballerina who was retiring. I just don’t know. Something just clicked. I loved Riverdance, and I didn’t want to lose that feeling and that respect for it. So, I wanted to leave the stage before the stage left me. I wanted to leave the stage on a high with all the love I have for it, rather than just staying there for like the lifestyle, or the money, or just because my friends were there. I wanted to leave there on a good positive note. Because I had seen people who had stayed in the show too long, and they weren’t very happy, and they were a bit negative, and things like that. I just didn’t want that for me. So, that was the point. I knew that that would be my last tour, and that tour was eight months long. I was like, “Right, I can do this.” And then, “All right. I’m going to go back to the art school, and just say I’m going to come next September.” That was it. Joseph: This is such a hard decision, right? On the one hand — I guess you could argue either way. You’re at your best and you’re at your high as a dancer or in any profession. Do you just keep going or do you leave while you’re ahead? I think that’s a real big challenge for a lot of people. Aisling: [25:08] It is. Joseph: Deciding when to leave. Aisling: [25:09] Deciding when to leave. But, sometimes, things just fall into your lap. And sometimes, something will hit you and you just have to go with your gut. Something I’ve learned more and more, the older I get, like to trust your gut and instinct on things like this. I could have stayed there just touring and touring and touring. But then, I wouldn’t have been happy and I would have sort of got the fear of it about what I was going to do next and all that. I feel quite lucky that I had the balls, essentially, to just go. I could have stayed. I was very happy there. They were happy with me. Contracts were coming in. It was all good. But, like made the decision, and just stuck with it, and went for it. Joseph: As I understand it, you went back and did an undergraduate in Fine Arts. And then, you also eventually did a master’s degree in Fine Art, but you were still touring at the time. Is that right? Again, I guess going back to my original question, how did that work out? Aisling: [26:03] I know. I had a really good relationship with Riverdance. When I said I was going to go to art school, they said, “Great!” And then, basically, they offered me work for every summer holiday, or Christmas holiday, or sporadic weeks here and there, where I will go back on tour, which was amazing for me because I was a student. I was going back on tour, making money, coming back into uni, and doing what I needed to do. It just kept me going, basically. And, when I finished my undergrad, I took a year off between doing my master’s degree. I went back on tour for a year to make money, to do my master’s degree. So, thanks to Riverdance, I have no student debt, which is really great. Joseph: It’s another benefit. I remember we were talking last time, while you’re a student, you did take up a few side jobs. If I remember it correctly. Waitressing, dog walking. Aisling: [26:58] Everything. Initially, when I left Riverdance and I started my undergrad in Galway on the west coast of Ireland as well, in Riverdance, we had this amazing lifestyle. There would be opening parties, and closing parties, and champagne, and caviar, and all the rest of it. To being a student, where it was like beans on toast and cracked wine on a Wednesday night, or something like that. It was a massive change. It was really good fun and I was up for it and all the rest of it. And then, when I came to London to do my master’s degree, I really had to hustle. Because London is very expensive. I was a student. I was on my own. I didn’t really know anyone here. I was very determined though. I had got my place at Central St. Martins, which I was so happy about because it’s an art school that I had admired. I was thinking about this recently that there was a point my master’s degree was two years. In the second year of my master’s degree, I was nannying three children. I would get up at like 5 a.m., go to their house, get them off for school, get them fed, bring them to school. Then, I would go down to my studio at Central St Martins for a couple of hours do my painting work. Then, I would go to the library, and do my thesis work. Then, I would come back, pick the kids up from school until like do their dinners, everything. Leave them at 7 p.m. Then, I would go to my waitressing job, and waitress to like 11, 12 o’clock. And then, I had to walk a dog because I was living in a house with a very good rent. But, the deal was I had to mind the dog. I was always walking — the morning walk and evening walk, and all the rest of it like so. And now, I look back and I think, “Jesus Christ! How did I do that?” It was so much. But, I think it was just sheer tenacity. I was so determined to keep this going and to make it happen. At the time, in the first house with the dog that I lived with, there was also — it sounds like a joke. There was me, the artist, there was an actress, and a comedian. We used to all rotate around this dog because the man who owned the house was a BBC Rugby commentator. So, he was always going off on rugby tours, and we would mind the dog, and it was just really funny. It was really good for me to be living with other creators. Because we were all struggling to find our way. I would miss out on an exhibition, and they would miss out on an audition, and we’d sit down and have a glass of wine, and have a moment about it with the dog and all that kind of thing. You hustle and you find your way to start off because it is hard. You can’t go in and start it off, especially in London. Joseph: I also want to talk about your time as an abstract painter. Let’s talk about your journey. Because you finish up school, you decide you want to be an artist, what were the early days like for you? And, where were you doing your art? How did the logistics of all this work out as you’re starting off as an artist? What do you do? Aisling: [29:55] I graduated in Central St. Martins in 2014. I came bouncing a lot of arts school and was, “Yay! This is great. I’ve got my master’s degree.” And then, went, “Oh, God. How am I going to make this work? Should I stay in London? Do I need to go back to Ireland? Where do I want to be?” I think in art school, it’s this amazing environment, and everyone’s on the same wavelength, and it’s just full of creativity. There’s so much going on between fine arts, and fashion, and creative writing because there are all these different departments and this buzz of creativity. And then, you come out and you go, “Great. Where do I start?” Let’s just say there isn’t a whole lot of focus on professional practice in that sense. I took some time just to gather myself a bit. I was still living in the house with the dog, so that was great. I was still nannying, so I was able to keep myself tipping over. And then, I thought, “I’m going to stay in London. I’m going to give it a go and see what happens.” I started looking for an art studio, which was just impossible. I just wasn’t able to pay for rent on my living and pay for rent on the studio. But then, one of the girls I had studied with was a waitress as well. Her boss had an old kebab shop that was no longer in use. So, he said we could have it for free. It was on Holloway Road, if we wanted it. We said, “Yeah. Let’s go for it.” And, my God! It was horrendous. It was freezing. It stank up like oil and chicken and it was dusty. But, it was a starting point. And then, this is the way it happens. Like, that was my first studio in London. It was free, starting points. And now, I got the best studio I’ve ever had and I love my studio now. Joseph: How long were you at the kebab shop? Aisling: [31:44] Maybe almost a year. I remember it had like a big glass front. People used to be walking up and down every morning, going to work. They started to get to know me. Because they’d see me in there at the wall, painting. They started waving at me. And, it would be freezing and I’d have all the layers of clothes on me and everything. But, I look back at it now and I think, “It was a starting point. I stuck it out. It was tough.” But, look now where I am. I got this amazing studio. I’ll probably stay here for quite a while. Because it’s very hard to get a studio in London. It’s a funny story now. Joseph: Let’s just think, okay, around month 11 of being in the kebab shop, I think one of the things that people struggle with when they’re embarking on a new journey is the starting few months or years can be really tough, and not exactly how you imagine things to be. How did you reconcile that? Was it running through your head? Did it bother you at all? Or, were you just feeling like, “Hey, this is just part of the journey”? Aisling: [32:42] I definitely had my moments. At that point as well, I was in my early 30s. I was just thinking, “This is tough. This is really tough.” But, at the same time, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. So, you have to start to find that balance and you have to constantly come back to, “Is this what I want to do? Yes. This is definitely what I want to do. Right. How am I going to make this work? How can I make this a bit better?” So then, I started like I did a load of service jobs so I could make more money. Then, I moved into a different studio. Then, I started to have some galleries come and visit the studio. My work started getting picked up for different shows, and competitions, and things like that. And then, you start to understand as well, you have to think about the long game. This is not just going to happen straight away. You really have to apply yourself and understand that this is a lifetime career. Like, I will still be painting in my 90s, whatever age I end up being. And, there are no quick fixes around it. As well, you need that time because you have to develop your work. Because the work I was making then is completely different to the work I’m making now. The ethos is the same, but the work is very different. Because I’ve matured, the work has matured. Joseph: What has been the most difficult or challenging part of your journey as an artist? Aisling: [34:05] I think fallibility, actually. Understanding that I will make mistakes and I will get it wrong and embracing that. Like, embracing them. When I was younger, I had a bit of a panic that was like, “I have to get this right,” and “I’m supposed to know everything.” But, you don’t know everything. You have to figure it out and you have to screw it up because that’s how you learn. Once I accepted that and understood that this was about making mistakes, getting it wrong, and it’s about time, then I was able to progress. Again, it goes back to that when I was auditioning for Riverdance, you have to be your own champion. You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion for you so you can move forward. Does that make sense? Joseph: That does make a lot of sense, yeah. Especially, as an artist, you’re going to get all sorts of subjective critique coming your way, and you’re not going to be able to please everybody as an artist. So, I guess you have to be that much more self-assured to believe in your work. Aisling: [35:07] Yeah. You really have to. And, you have to understand that like — even I, as a mother, my son is in daycare this morning. So, you have this new added expense. But, you have to spend money to make money. I’m investing in my time by putting him into daycare, which means I can progress that I will do better. It’s always changing as well. I think that’s another thing that I’ve learned as well, that I have to be really flexible. Particularly, now, as a mother. In terms of the work and my paintings’ development, I had a lecture in art school who used to always say to me, “Aisling, you need to decide where you’re going to place yourself as an artist.” I could never understand that. I could never get my head around it. But, I understand it now. Because I’m so much more confident in what I’m doing and the work. I know where to place myself, and I know which box let’s say, within the art world, I want to put myself into. But, it’s taken me years to sort of unravel that in my head. Joseph: Can we also talk about the commercial side of being an artist for a moment? Because you did mention there’s a bit of a trade-off here. Obviously, you got to invest in the nursery, and you’ve got your bills to pay. There I think there is probably, at least an external perception out there that it’s pretty hard to make it successfully in the art world. In fact, there’s this term “starving artist.” Can you explain in your own words, what has it taken for you to make it as an artist? Aisling: [36:36] When I was in arts school, so granted we’re going back a good 10 years now, there was always the hierarchy of the gallery. Whereas now, you can have so much more self-autonomy as an artist. You can have so much more control. I’m not saying that there isn’t room for everybody, of course, there is. But, with the rise in the online art markers, something like COVID as well, has reshaped how people buy and sell art. I think now, you can really just sell for you. For example, the open studios. When people come and meet me, they see the work in the studio. I sell through my website. I sell through Instagram. And then, I do like art shows. And, I do show with galleries, but I’m not exclusive with a gallery. Because for now — I’m not saying I never will. But for now, I’m quite happy to build it on my own. I find that the more confident I become in my work, the more confident I become in my website development, or whatever it is. Because there are all these other little hats. In art school, they don’t teach you professional things. It’s all this stuff that you have to learn when you come out: contracts, agreements, and tax, and all the grown-up stuff that you have to deal with. You go first, again, it’s the tenacity. I want to do this. I want to make it work. I want to be able to pay for this studio. I want to be able to pay my bills. How am I going to do that? Well, I have to get up and talk about my work and tell everyone how great it is. Because I do think it is great and I’m in this for the long game. I want to build relationships with collectors, which I am doing, which is lovely. Because they come back, and they buy again and again. They say, “Oh, Aisling, you’ve changed your palette,” or “You’re moving into a different area.” It’s wonderful to build that. I think we’re living in an age where people want that experience as well of if someone buys my work, they love to be able to say, “Oh, gosh. This girl is from Ireland and she’s been with Riverdance, and now she’s an artist.” It’s this whole story, and Riverdance has influenced her work, and I’m really happy to share that with people. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with an art fair that you’re going to be exhibiting at very soon here, is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. What have you learned about yourself as you have made this pivot from being a professional dancer to now a professional artist? Aisling: [38:56] I suppose I will go back again to the idea of tenacity. I didn’t realize, I always knew I had really good discipline, an application from being a dancer, that is just drawn into you. I’ve been able to carry that forward into my art career, which has been brilliant. I think learning that you can cross-pollinate from one creative area into another is a really wonderful thing. Learning to trust myself more, definitely. I said this earlier as well, trusting my instinct on things. Again, that’s a confidence thing as you grow. Particularly, within the arts, because it is also subjective and there isn’t one clear path with it. But, knowing that you can just follow your own timeline and that’s the best way to do it. I think there was a point where I felt like, “Oh, God. I shouldn’t be doing this because at this age.” And now, I’m kind of like, “Oh, no. Not at all. Do it all whatever way I want to do it.” I never stuck directly to the societal terms around how you should be doing things. I’ve always pretty much trusted my own gut. Even when I was 16 going, “I just want to get into Riverdance, and go to art school.” I’ve always had that attitude of, “Okay. Now, I’m just going to move to London and go to art school. And then, I’m going to make it as an artist. How am I going to do that? I don’t know. But, I’ll figure it out.” Like, an understanding you don’t know at all. You have to just wing it, and then everything happens for a reason and it will fall into place. Joseph: Anything in particular surprise you about making a pivot at the point in your life when you did? Aisling: [40:27] I think I’ve reframed a lot of thinking in my head about how to approach things. That’s been really good. I’ve been very conscious of surrounding myself with good people. Even in my studio, there are some amazing artists here. They’re also friends and they’re people that I can bounce ideas off. People that will help me grow is really good. That’s why it’s good to have good people around you. My husband is, he’s super supportive. He loves what I do. He’ll come in and critique what I’m doing. His visual training is different from mine. Like, I said earlier, he’s an architect. His viewpoint is quite different, but we’ll have really good discussions about it. All these things add up and help me move along, win-win. Joseph: If there’s somebody out there who is maybe in a job, or if they’re in a role where they’re not quite feeling like they should keep doing it, or maybe the time has come for them to move on as you were describing before, that they’re thinking about leaving the stage before the stage leaves them, but they haven’t done it yet, what would you say to that person? Aisling: [41:34] Oh, it’s so funny, Joseph. I’ve met so many people at art fairs or who come to my studio. They’ll say, “Oh, I’d love to be doing something else. I really don’t like my work, but I love the security of it.” I will just like, “Life is too short. Do it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. The world doesn’t end.” I have a friend actually, who’s been saying to me for about five years, “I don’t want to be doing what I’m doing.” I went, “Do it now. Because you don’t want to be saying this to me in another five years. Because then 10 years have gone by.” I would say, “Do it. Life is for living. You want to do what you love.” It’s going to be difficult. Of course, it’s going to be difficult because nothing is easy. If it is easy, it’s boring, right? You want to have a bit of fun with it. Go do it first, that’s what I’d say. Joseph: Now, we haven’t had a ton of artists on this show. A lot of the people who have been featured have either come from the corporate world or maybe they’re in more traditional white-collar office jobs. One of the things that you had talked to me about before we started recording was the idea that we need creativity in our lives. What did you mean by that? Aisling: [42:41] Okay. A good example of that would be the pandemic. When everything’s shut down, you weren’t able to move, to get out, to do anything. I think so many people relied on music or art that was in their house; TV, movies, all that. All those areas of creativity. Actually, that’s when my sales really went off. Because people were starting to think, “I need something to allow escapism, let’s say, in my home because I’m here so much.” I think creativity is essential to society. I think we need it. I think it’s so important, and people always need to remember that. Because without us, can you imagine life without any color? I mean, color in the broader sense. What’s the point? Joseph: I want to wrap up with something that I know you’ve got coming up right around the corner here. Can you tell me a little bit more about The Other Art Fair which is being held at King’s Cross in London from the 29th of June to the 2nd of July? Aisling: [43:50] I’m participating in The Other Art Fair. It’s a wonderful fair that’s led by artists. You meet artists on their stand. I will be on Stand Number 92, and you will see my latest body of work. If you want more information on that, you can pop over onto my website, aislingdrennan.com. If you subscribe, I send sporadic emails with any updates like that where I’m doing the art fairs or art galleries, or open studios or anything like that. Make sure you come and tell me that you heard the podcast, and let me know what you think. I’d love to meet you. Joseph: All right. Again, that’s Stand 92 at The Other Art Fair in King’s Cross. We’ll be sure to include a link in the show notes with more details about the art fair. Thank you so much, Aisling, for taking the time to tell us about your former life as a professional dancer, and now as a professional artist, and the importance of deciding where you want to place yourself and just going for it, if you’re thinking about doing something in your career. I hope the art fair this week goes well for you, and I wish you the best of luck with your art, and your business, and of course, balancing all of this with motherhood. Thanks so much for coming onto the show. Aisling: [45:02] Thank you for having me.

Making any major career pivot involves a lot of bravery, risk, and complication. You’re dealing with not only the practicalities of switching career paths but also the insecurities associated with starting over. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 96, professional ballerina turned Mooch product designer Rina Takikawa describes what triggered her to walk away from a career that was years in the making and the surprising links you can find between two seemingly unrelated careers. This sort of decision to let go of a dream you once held onto so tightly turns out to be quite a common one amongst the clients, listeners, and audiences I cross paths with in my line of work. Rina and I talk about why people make these brave leaps, what you can do to manage the pivot, and how much you end up learning about yourself when you’re forced to reconsider what truly makes you happy. During today’s Mental Fuel segment, I’ll also share a few of the insecurities I wrestled with when I started over in my own career. Key Career Takeaways Your goals can change over time. When you lose the passion you once had for your career, you owe it to yourself to try and move on. Making the decision to walk away from a lifelong dream is never easy, but if you can manage the complexities of letting go of the investment, you may just end up finding much more career fulfillment. If you look hard enough, you can find the surprising, common threads across your seemingly disparate professional endeavors. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify, name, and share one of the insecurities you’ve felt recently in your own career so you can identify it when it shows up, accept it, and not allow it to paralyze you. Remember, having doubts doesn’t mean you’ve made the wrong choice for your career. It just means you’re dealing with a common dynamic that emerges when you make any unconventional move. About Rina Takikawa, Ballerina Turned Product Designer Today, I’m speaking with Rina Takikawa, a product designer based in Los Angeles. She’s one of the founding members at Mooch, a fintech startup building a Gen Z budgeting app, where she leads design and product experience. Rina has been featured in press outlets such as Business Insider and Built In and has spoken at the University of Arizona, UX Copenhagen, Ideate Labs, and CareerFoundry among others. Before transitioning into the tech sector, Rina was a professional ballerina for the Ballet de Catalunya in Spain. Follow Rina on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and her newsletter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Rina know!  Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear- Pives And Flarinet Podington Bear – Puppy Podington Bear – Trillium Leimoti – Leave a Mark Podington Bear – Jetsam Bio Unit – Across the Valley Scott Holmes Music – Ambient Meditation Scott Holmes Music – Life In A Moment Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Rina. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Rina: [03:18] Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here today. Joseph: Me, too. Alright. Let’s get started here by, first of all, talking about what you’re up to right now. And then, we’re going to go back in time and talk about your former career. I would love to start off by just finding out what you’ve been focused on recently in both your professional and also your personal life. Rina: [03:39] I am currently a product designer at a financial technology start-up called “Mooch.” We are a budgeting app powered by Blockchain, and we focus on budgeting for Gen Zs. So, we have a big Gen Z community of over 50,000 people. In my personal life, I enjoy participating in speaking events. I’m also focused on writing a newsletter every week. I do content creation here and there as well. I’m just very passionate about overall personal branding and sharing my story. So, that’s a little bit about me. Joseph: Now, as I understand it, Rina, you are a product designer at Mooch. In layman’s terms, explain exactly what does a product designer do? Rina: [04:25] A product designer is focused on the product development of an app. On top of actually designing the actual app, I’m also focused on the partner’s experience using the app. So, I mostly focused on how can we design a seamless experience for these people. So, it’s a little bit in factoring everything about a business and a product and experience, in general. Joseph: Do you also get into user experience? So that UX versus product design, do they overlap? Are they related? Rina: [05:04] That’s basically, the partner experience that I was talking about. It’s essentially user experience. What is the experience like during onboarding, during their sign-up process? What is their experience like using an edit functionality? What does your experience look like creating something on an interface? How does the feature function? Whereas, user interface is more so visual designs. How does the layout work? What do they see on the actual app? Product design is basically a coupling UX and UI together, but also focusing on the actual product division and business goals. Joseph: I know that this is a big part of your life right now and definitely what you’re focused on at this moment. You haven’t always been a product designer in the FinTech space, and this show is all about changing careers. I understand you used to be a professional ballerina. Let’s go back in time and talk about your former life as a ballerina. And then, we can talk about how you transitioned into FinTech. I’d love to go all the way back to the beginning. How did you get interested in ballet? Rina: [06:11] I started ballet when I was 5 years old. I believe the reason why was my aunt was a former ballerina as well. And so, she persuaded my mom to put me in ballet classes. Joseph: This was in New York. Is that right? Is that where you grew up? Rina: [06:30] I grew up in New York, but I was born in Singapore. I actually started my baby ballet classes in Singapore. Joseph: Do you remember those classes? Like, do you have memories of being in? Rina: [06:41] I do! Joseph: What was that like? Did you like them? Did you think it’s different from the other activities you were involved with? Rina: [06:47] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Lots of great memories there. Very happy memories. I know my parents were quite busy when I was young, so I couldn’t go to ballet classes every week. It was more so like once in three weeks. But, I was always very, very excited for my next ballet class. I remember all the ballet kids would exchange candies after class, and I would bring a whole bag of chocolates, and I would just give them to the other kids. It was very wholesome. Joseph: I can’t remember if I talked with you about this last time, Rina. I’ve got a daughter who’s 5 and 1/2 years old. We took her to baby ballet right down the street. I would take her once a week. It was pre-pandemic. She was going at like the age of 3. We’re not doing it anymore. I guess the question that’s running in my head is, at what point does this go from being kind of like a fun thing to do as a kid to something that became more serious for you. When did that happen? Rina: [07:47 8 to 10, when I first started going to point classes, when I first got my point shoes. It was difficult, but it was a challenge that I was excited about. From there, I was kind of imagining my future already as a ballerina. And then, I moved to New York. The teachers there were also very inspiring. That is the real moment where I was like, “I want to be like my teacher.” My teacher was my biggest role model when I was like 12 years old, all the way up to 20. I remember always looking up to her, always fascinated whenever I see her dance. I’m like, “I want to be like her when I grow up.” That was when I was, “I really want to make it to this ballet world.” Joseph: What does it take to make it in the ballet world? Did that become clearer to you from the start? How do you assess whether you are one of the, I guess, few ballet students that can make it professionally in the world of ballet? Rina: [08:48] Ballet is a very, very competitive industry.  There’s a lot of females, so it’s very competitive. All I knew at that age of like when I was trying to plan out my future and kind of break down the steps in order to go professional, is I have to keep being persistent, keep training, go to competitions, get awarded, get scholarships, get exposure to international schools and companies, go to summer intensives, and get exposure from other prestigious schools so that directors can start seeing me. I never once had a summer vacation. I’ve always been training every weekend, every day, every holiday, every summer vacation, “vacation.” I would be at a summer intensive at a different school. You don’t go to college if you are pursuing to be a professional ballerina. Just because if you want to be a professional ballerina, you have to start young. Usually, people aim to sign with the company at the age of 18. Joseph: It sounds like this is the level of commitment that it takes in order to break through in that industry. I know you mentioned school before, so it sounds like your schooling was actually focused on the performing arts. Also, you went to the Frank Sinatra School of the Arts for high school. You eventually would go on to the University of Cincinnati. Is that correct? To do your BFA in ballet. Rina: [10:21] Yes. Joseph: Could you give us a glimpse into your journey as a ballerina, and how that evolved then over time? Going from high school, through doing and studying ballet at the University of Cincinnati. Rina: [10:32] I got accepted to Performing Arts High School in New York. My schedule when I was in high school was a lot of dancing. I would dance in the morning. I would go to education classes. Your regular high school, like English, Math, Science, those things. After those, I would go to rehearsals in school. And then, after rehearsals, I would go to my pre-professional intense training studio and train more there. And then, came the decision to make on whether I should be auditioning for studio companies or applying to college. That was a big, big question. Because if you’re not a prodigy, you need a plan B. Ultimately, my decision was go to school. Because, I guess, I could make my parents happy, plus also get the ballet experience that I wanted. I chose the University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. Because from what I saw, they had a good reputation of graduates going on to professional companies. It was a really good experience. I went there for two years, instead of the regular four. Just because at the age of 19, that’s when I signed my first professional contract. I decided to drop out of school. Just because being a professional ballerina was the ultimate goal, and I signed that contract which was my dream. When I signed that contract, I dropped everything and I moved to Spain alone to pursue this full-time. Joseph: Before we get to your time working as part of that company in Spain, can you give me a sense of some of the roles that you had up until this point as a ballerina? Rina: [12:23] I was “Kitri” in Don Quixote. Very, very exciting. One of my favorite ballets. In the University of Cincinnati, I had a lot of soloist roles. I was “Cupid” in their Don Quixote production as well. I was the “Silver Fairy” in Sleeping Beauty. I was one of the fairies in our Cinderella production, in collaboration with the Dayton Ballet’s artistic director. Joseph: “Winter Fairy,” is that right? Rina: [12:53] “Winter Fairy,” yes. Thank you. I was one of the fairies. I forgot which one. Another role I was part of the quarter ballet in La Bayadère. I was the first person. This is like all ballet terminologies. There’s this part of the scene in La Bayadère where every dancer has to do an arabesque to penché, and I had to do that 36 times because I was the first person. That was also one of the main highlights of my time at the conservatory. Joseph: I want to switch gears here, Rina, and talk about your time in Spain because here you are as someone who has now left college. You are 19 at this time, so a teenager still. You move to Spain all by yourself. Can you take me back to the moment when you landed in Spain, what was running through your head? First of all, being in a new country. But also, getting ready to sign this contract to join a company there. Rina: [13:52] It was very exciting. It was like a dream come true. Especially, when I got to Spain. We could also talk about the whole annoying process of getting a Visa, and getting an apartment, all in Spanish. That was a real pain. Especially, doing it alone at 19, too. It was very overwhelming, I remember. I don’t know how I did that. I don’t think I could even do it right now, to be honest. I give props to myself for that for handling that whole situation alone. I remember being very, very happy. I’m like, “Okay. This is the start of my professional journey. I’ve made it through pre-professional training. All those long hard years of working hard, and I finally made it to my goal. This was the moment that I’ve been waiting for since a very young age, and I’m here now. I can’t wait to work hard.” And so, those were the feelings that I was feeling when I first landed in Spain. Joseph: Now, I don’t know a ton about the world of ballet, Rina. I guess my only real exposure to it was, I went to Northwestern University as an undergraduate student. Between the school of communication and the school of music, there are actually a pretty sizable group of students that are focused on the performing arts. I was actually an R.A. my junior year at a Humanities dorm that was very popular among students majoring in things like dance or theatre. I got a bit of a glimpse into how hard it is to make it as a dancer. Especially, when it comes to ballet, I feel like it’s typically portrayed as extremely competitive, almost cut-throat, at least in the popular press and in Hollywood. I’m thinking about things like “Black Swan.” Let’s just talk reality here. The good, bad, and ugly of your time at that company. Maybe it’s best to, first of all, start off with the good. Because it sounds like you landed there, you’re very excited. What did you like about being a ballerina in a professional company? Rina: [15:55] I was definitely very humbled. It was hard work getting to where I got. I didn’t want to take anything for granted. I consider myself very lucky too because, as mentioned, this is very competitive. Even signing a contract to be with a ballet company, I was over cloud nine. I consider myself very lucky, very grateful for this opportunity, and very humbled that I’m even at this spot because a million girls would kill to even have this spot in the company. Those were my emotions. Joseph: What was your relationship like with the other competitive, I’m assuming, girls who are also part of your company? Rina: [16:40] The reason why I was so grateful and humbled, not of course being in the ballet company, but aside from that, it was because I was surrounded by people that were so talented. Never in a million years would I have ever thought that I would be training or dancing next to people that were training in the most prestigious schools in Europe. Like, schools that I could never get into, I was dancing next to them in a company together. That was when I would step back and I’ll be like, “Wow! I can’t believe I’m dancing with all of these talented people, almost prodigies, that we’re at the same company dancing together. What’s going on?” That’s why I felt so lucky, so grateful, so humbled. I learned a lot from them. They were very nice people. I definitely knew my place at the company. I’m not trying to be cut-throat here. All I wanted to do was learn from them. That’s part of the good news that we’re starting with, is that I was exposed to a lot of very talented people and nice, nice people. Joseph: What was the hardest thing about being part of that company? Rina: [17:53] Especially, since we’re talking about an international company here where I don’t speak the language, it was extremely hard for me to even be in this country because Spanish was the only language that people were talking in. Building upon that pressure, I ideally wanted to have more support from the leadership team, but it’s not very common unless you are a very big government-supported company that I feel like the leadership would be good. I was kind of expecting not being too supported, but it really hit me when it was my first professional year. I’m like, “Oh, it is very hard when there’s no strong base of leadership.” Joseph: I know when we were talking before this recording. You’d also mentioned that there were some toxic aspects of working in a company. Would you mind walking me through just what aspects of it felt toxic to you? Rina: [18:56] Directors, how they valued their dancers, how they treated them, in terms of just, I guess compensation, but also hours and performance opportunities, and values, and morals. Those things. That’s where we’ll get into why I am who I am today. My values and my morals, it’s deeply rooted in my experience as a ballerina. Joseph: It sounds like on the one hand being, a professional ballerina, it was incredibly exciting. You’re surrounded by incredibly talented individuals. At the same time, sounds extremely intense, long hours. Perhaps some elements of there being a toxic environment, what was your mental health like during this time? We’ll get to your physical in a moment. Rina: [19:544] It wasn’t the best, but I don’t know if I have just toxic positivity. I still remember, literally drilling this in my head like, “Don’t think like that. Don’t think like that. You’re so lucky to be here. You don’t have the privilege to even be thinking about your mental health right now.” I still remember telling myself that.  Like, “A million girls would kill to be in your spot. Why are you even thinking about mental health?” That’s because ballet is so competitive that just to be in this spot, you should be so thankful. I don’t think I even gave myself the space to even think about mental health. Even if it’s toxic, I don’t care. Joseph: You’re going to power your way. Rina: [20:43] I’m here. Yeah. This is the world. This is the reality. I can’t complain. I knew that that was what I signed up for. Joseph: Kind of comes with the territory. So, why allow yourself to complain? I know when we spoke before, you also said something that really struck a nerve with me. You’d said that as much as you had put your whole life into ballet, you didn’t know if you wanted to keep doing it. What exactly were you questioning at that time? Rina: [21:10] That was right before I pulled the trigger to make my career change actually. It was a growing pressure of I guess my mental health and my physical health. Just taking a step back to see the experience that I was having in this company, is it really worth it? At a certain point, I was like, “Okay, is this sustainable?” Because I can drill a million positive affirmations into my head, but I just had a breaking point. Even if I change companies and dance at a different company, is this also going to be my experience at that company? The weight of my experience at this company, it being my first professional experience, it just took a big toll on me and it gave me a very scared impression of what I would be going through for the rest of my career if I were to stay on this path. That’s when I really had to face reality. By facing reality, I had to be completely transparent with myself and what I wanted out of life. It was extremely hard just because I was finally at this path of being a ballerina because I signed my first professional contract and dancing in my first professional company. It’s just very ironic that I was even questioning this. But, because of everything that I was going through, I really just had to step back and see if I would be down to put myself through more of these just to climb a ladder. That’s when I remember I was just sitting in my apartment in Spain just literally crying a lot. There’s also the investment of my parents and my teachers. They put so much money into my training. They’ve put so much belief in me. They’ve seen my growth. They see my potential. Do I really want to let them down? Joseph: It’s tough. We talk about this on this show, Rina. You’ve invested so much time into one particular career path, and you almost don’t want to even allow yourself to entertain the idea of walking away from it. Was there a particular moment that you can remember when you did decide that you’re not going to pursue ballet anymore? Rina: [23:35] After my whole breakdown of me thinking about all these factors in my head in my apartment in Spain, seeing if I should pull the trigger or not, what I decided to do after that was go to Japan to get treatment. Because I was also suffering from an injury that couldn’t really be diagnosed in all the hospital visits in my time in Spain. I decided to go back to Japan just to take a little bit of a break. Because I thought maybe time was what I needed to form a decision. There were a lot of things that happened in Japan. I remember being so traumatized by ballet that I couldn’t even watch any ballet videos or listen to any classical music. Every time I saw a ballet video on my Instagram page, I had to skip it over or else I would get anxiety. It just ruined my passion for ballet as a whole. That’s when I decided, “Okay. If I can’t even be listening or watching ballet, I don’t know how I’m going to even dance in a company given my mental health towards ballet at this point.” Joseph: Now, you would eventually move back to New York. Is that correct? Rina: [24:56] Yeah. Joseph: And then, you started to think about doing some other things. Can you walk me through how you started to then pick up the pieces and move forward having now decided to walk away from ballet? Rina: [25:11] When I went back to New York, I started becoming more active in my career change exploration per se. That was when I started exploring courses, and seeing what fields are even outside of ballet. What normal person my age would be doing. I had to re-educate myself on those things and figure out, “Oh, there are internships. There are work studies.” Like, “Oh, these things exist. That’s interesting.” During that process as well, that was when I started also exploring other potential career fields. Such as there’s business, there’s marketing. I took a lot of intro classes just to get my feet wet into different types of industries and fields. During that time, it was actually the start of COVID, too. It was a very scary time. But, even though it was scary, there was also opportunities in terms of everything became virtual. It gave me chances to explore things all online in my own time. It did benefit this exploration period. Joseph: And then, which direction did you ultimately decide to go in with your continuing education? Rina: [26:25] I was debating between psychology, languages, and design. I ultimately chose design. The reason why I chose design is because I remember when I was little, I had to choose between design and ballet. I was actually very passionate in creating things since a young age. I loved scrapbooking. I love playing with clay. I loved just designing, in general. But, I loved ballet more, so I chose ballet. So, when I stumbled upon design again, I’m like, “Okay. Maybe this is my chance to actually take this seriously and learn more about design.” Like, it has some sort of psychological aspect. It has the actual creation aspect. It has this problem-solving aspect. Understanding that, I saw the potential of me actually enjoying it. That’s when I pulled the trigger, and I decided to go to school for it, and I decided to enroll in career foundaries year-long boot camp just to get a better understanding of foundation and more about what this field is like. Joseph: Last question for you about how you end up going into this current industry of yours before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. How did you end up landing your role at Mooch? Rina: [27:54] I knew that ultimately I’ve wanted to inspire other people using my career journey. That was when I was being very proactive and investing in my personal branding as well. Doing so, actually led me to a couple of opportunities starting with internships. Also, that eventually became job roles. And then, my first employer found me through LinkedIn. I think that’s because of all my content creation that I was doing since starting the boot camp. Joseph: You were blogging at the time, is that right? Rina: [28:28] I was doing a lot of content posting on LinkedIn, on my blogs on Instagram. When I was working on my first full-time job, which was a B2B SAS product, I already knew that FinTech is an industry that I’ve always wanted to work in. That was my goal. I knew I wanted to work in the B2C space as well because I do love to understand how consumers behave and think. I’ve always known that. It’s just very fascinating to me. I knew that my first full-time job was just a transition state just to get my experience going. That’s when a friend of mine actually introduced me to Mooch. From there, I became one of the founding members. I was like number four into the team. I’ve been with the team since pre-launch, and it’s been just an amazing journey. It really feels like I’m building with friends. I can’t be more grateful that I am at this company. I’m building a product that I love. I’m building it with people that I love as well. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, Rina, are just some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. You’ve gone from ballet, went through a very challenging period, eventually decided to walk away from that career, and then have now landed in a place that sounds like you’re really, really happy I know you recently spoke at UX Copenhagen in early 2023. As I understand it, you drew some parallels between ballet and product design. What are one or two ways that you see the two being somewhat similar? Rina: [30:11] These are things that I never even thought could be similar when I first started my career change, and it all started making sense when I started becoming more involved in product design. Product design and ballet are both creations where emotions are very important in the process development. For example, how do I want my audience to feel as they watch me dance, is a big driver as to how I’m presenting my movements and how I am even showcasing artistry while I dance. For example, in Swan Lake, it’s a very sad story. In Don Quixote, I’m very sassy and I want it to be a fun experience when the audience is watching this ballet. In Sleeping Beauty, it’s very happy. If I’m a fairy, it has to be very light and very like staccato, very happy light feeling. And so, the takeaway here is what’s the emotion that I want to express while I’m dancing. Same in product design, what do I want my partners to feel as they go through these screens and go through these experiences? The second thing I covered was structure, in ballet, there’s a lot of behind-the-scenes that goes on into presenting a movement. From the audience perspective, it might look like I’m just lifting my leg or I’m just dancing on my toes. But, there’s actually a lot of technical sides of how I’m actually presenting that movement. In comparison to product design, how am I structuring complicated technical logic of how this feature is supposed to work into very processable designs where people using the app will be like, “Oh, this is super easy. I just toggle this on and toggle this off.” The hierarchy ways of looking at a specific screen is very easy. It’s very easy to use. The usability is there. The experiences there. Like, we’re not supposed to make people think when they use a design. The result of that is how well do you structure those complicated logics into processable designs. Joseph: One thing we’ve also spoken about before, and something I know you have written about, is this idea that you should prioritize fulfillment in your career and life. Although I know that makes sense intuitively, I also know that fulfillment is not always an easy thing to prioritize because sometimes, it feels at odds with practicality, or societal expectations, or investment, or other constraints that you have in your life. I would be interested to hear how would you describe how you’ve attempted to prioritize fulfillment in your career in life. Rina: [32:58] It comes down to a lot of things but the first thing that I want to emphasize is values and morals when it comes to deciding what you want to do. I feel very humble to even be able to say this because I am able to prioritize fulfillment in my life, but I know that that’s not the case for everybody. So, in order to understand what fulfillment means to you, I have a very strong basis of what I want from a company and what I want my day-to-day to look like. Transparency and awareness around mental health. I would like to work with in a company that values it as much as I do and doesn’t ignore it because at the end of the day, we’re all human and I want to be in a company where they know that we’re all human. I really try to evaluate a leadership team before I say yes to what offer, or before I decide to continue or not continue with the company. That drives fulfillment for me a lot, mental health, well-being. Also, are you working towards a vision that you want to work for? For me, modernizing finances has been a goal of mine. Even if I am experiencing hardships at work or work stress, the vision is there. I know that my teammates and I are aligned on our vision together. That is how I persevere and can persevere. Going back to the whole values, vision is also a big part for me. If the team is right and if the vision is there, then I know I can do it. That plays a big role in value, and then fulfilment. Joseph: Last question for you, Rina, before we wrap up with what you’re doing now. Sometimes, if you come from a very different industry, trying to break into a new sector or job, you might actually see your background as a bit of a liability, especially if you’re competing with more traditional candidates for a specific role. Rina: [35:10] Tell me about it. Joseph: I’m just speculating that this may have come up with you. I’m just wondering if someone is struggling with this, do you have any tips on how you can see your background as a strength instead of a weakness? Rina: [35:25] This is something that I’m still struggling with. It’s definitely a big liability. At a point, it was kind of an insecurity, to be honest. Because after I changed careers, my accomplishments in ballet didn’t mean anything. It was kind of a pride to clear as well. I had to literally start from scratch. Especially getting to that first job as well because again, accomplishments in my previous industry did not matter. Those 15 years of hard work did not matter. There are workarounds, but also what I did was embrace my background and the way I did that was through personal branding. How do I make myself more valuable by utilizing my previous experience? There were no hard skills that could translate over to technology. I really had to see how I could work with my background, and that was by actually embracing my background and seeing how I can use my soft skills that I learned in ballet, translate to technology. I really tried to market myself through personal branding. The first thing not to do is to be insecure about your background, like how I was at the very start, and to think that that means nothing because it does. If I were to continue being insecure about my background when I first started career changing, I don’t think I would have given a talk at UX Copenhagen. Because ultimately, my talk at UX Copenhagen was one of the parallels between classical ballet and product design. The reason why I got to do that talk is because I start embracing my background and started trying to break down how I was able to transition into a totally separate industry from ballet. Joseph: I want to wrap up, Rina, with what you’re doing right now. Tell me a little bit more about your growth newsletter. Rina: [37:27] I recently, very recently, started writing about my growth and documenting my journey. I’m very passionate in growth in general. I’ve always had a passion for documenting things. I was documenting my personal branding and all of that, and that was how my first employer found me. Even now, even though I do have experience and I have a job and all of that, I still prioritize growth in my day-to-day. And so, I created this newsletter where I share with other people what I’m learning at work. If they are interested in product design or start-ups, I write a lot about that. Even when I have conversations, like the one we’re having right now, I write my takeaways in those newsletters. Basically, it’s a newsletter about life, growth, and everything in between. It’s been an exciting journey. Joseph: If people want to learn more about you, or if they want to sign up for your growth newsletter, where could they go? Rina: [38:30] You can search me on LinkedIn or Instagram. It’s just my first name and my last name, pretty standard. Joseph: Finally, are you still dancing? Rina: [38:39] Yes. I am dancing. I am. I dance at least once a week just to keep my technique up. It’s been a great time. I made the right decision at the end of the day because I now have my passion back. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Rina, for taking me through your life as a ballerina and the steps you took to open up a new path for yourself in product design, during the pandemic, by the way. And also, the importance of prioritizing fulfillment in your life. Best of luck with your role at Mooch, and your newsletter, and also your dancing. Thanks for joining us today. Rina: [39:21] Thank you so much, Joseph. It was such a great time.

Setting clear boundaries in your career is critical to maintaining a good work-life balance, positive professional relationships, and your own mental sanity. And setting boundaries is especially important when you’re a doctor, where you not only experience a lot of stress and pressure, but your own well-being can affect your ability to take care of the people depending on you for care. On episode 95 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ali Jawa, a practicing endocrinologist turned medical director shares his thoughts on setting boundaries, acknowledging career stagnation, and making a non-traditional move within one’s industry.  I also share some thoughts on defining your walkaway points in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways At some point, you have to make a choice about the boundaries you’re going to set between your personal and professional life. The intellectual challenge in one’s career is crucial for personal and professional growth, as it encourages continuous learning and the development of new skills and perspectives. Having your feet on two different boats moving in different directions is extremely challenging. While you can bounce back and forth for a while, at some point, you have to leap and commit to one or the other. You need to get clear with yourself about “why” you want to pursue a specific career path. You can’t keep planning forever. You have to take action to honor those things you value most in your career and life. Resources Mentioned Ali mentioned Rich Dad Poor Dad, which was a pivotal book that helped me redefine how he thought about his own career. He also mentioned Marshall Goldsmith’s description of our different identities (programmed vs. created). Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance of defining what your action threshold or tipping point will be before you take action. Think about which milestone you want to cross, what amount of time should pass, what state a relationship should reach, or how badly you’ll let your well-being suffer. What will it take, how far will you allow yourself to go before you can no longer NOT act? About Ali Jawa, Medical Director at Wilcare Ali Jawa is a doctor from Pakistan who moved to the US 27 years ago for advanced medical training in Internal Medicine, Endocrinology, & clinical research. He eventually returned to Pakistan to become a professor at a top public-sector medical university there. Over the next decade, he built his clinical practice, set up a medical center called WilCare, served as President of the Pakistan Endocrine Society, & trained several doctors to become endocrinologists like himself. Since 2015, he’s been the Medical Director of WilCare on a full-time basis. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Bio Unit – Flying Saucer Mochas – City Sun Podington Bear – Puppy AMBIENTALISM – Presence Poddington Bear- Pives And Flarinet Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay. Ali, welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Salam Alaikum. Ali: [03:08] Wa Alaikum Salam, and the pleasure is mine. Thank you for having me, Joseph. Joseph: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you tolerating my attempt at Urdu at the start here. But I got to try to use a little bit of what I learned last month in Pakistan when I visited you guys out there. The last time you and I spoke face to face was sitting at a sushi restaurant in Lahore over dinner after a workshop I hosted out there. I know you’re a very busy guy. I was wondering if you could just start us off by telling me what you’ve been focused on recently, both personally and also professionally in your life. Ali: [03:41] Lately, I have been focusing on my business. My primary business is running a medical center based in Lahore. Other than that, I enjoy interacting with my peers and friends in Entrepreneurs’ Organization. I belong to the Lahore chapter, and I actively engaged with them for the past five years. Joseph: That’s actually where you and I first met. It was nice to have you in the audience there and to be able to speak with you afterward. One of the things you just mentioned is that you’re a medical director. Your organization is called Wilcare. Can you just give me a snapshot of what Wilcare does and the patient population that you serve? Ali: [04:24] Wilcare is an outpatient medical facility. We have been in existence since 2008. It has been an amazing experience in the sense that initially started with a smaller place. As we developed our clientele and the patient population grew, we expanded. We developed a structure. We primarily deal with patients and clients referred by other businesses for medical check-ups. That is been the bread and butter of Wilcare for the past almost 15 years. Joseph: Can you also just explain briefly how health care works there in Pakistan? I heard a little bit about this from you when I was there. Can you explain the general setup private versus public and how patients typically access care there? Ali: [05:17] Patients tend to have a choice. They choose who they want to see, and that is essentially because they are self-pay. They’re paying out of their own pocket. There is a small group of people who have insurance and they have a structure in place in which they go to preferred providers, but it’s not as well-developed as in the West such as in America. It’s basically the patient chooses who they want to go and see; a specialist, a generalist, a family doctor. It’s up to them. Majority of the care is being provided by the private sector. But in all over Pakistan, the government sector exists and does provide coverage to primarily lower social economic classes. Joseph: Before we go back in time and talk about how you got to where you are today, Ali, I know that you’re also a busy family man and you are a father. Can you give me a snapshot of your family structure, kids? How that looks for you right now? Ali: [06:18] I have a big family. My children are all grown up. When you have to deal with your family life as well as your business, especially when you are a practicing doctor, at times, the family gets compromised. I do have to admit that my family life was somewhat compromised in the start of my career in Pakistan. Eventually, kind of an equilibrium and a little bit more towards the family. The tilt has been more evident. Joseph: Let’s go back in time and let’s talk about how you became a doctor in the first place. You haven’t always been the medical director at Wilcare. Can we talk about your days when you were focused solely on the clinical side of medicine? I’d like to start from the very, very beginning. When did you decide that you wanted to be a doctor? Ali: [07:08] In Pakistan, when I was growing up, the usual choices, the preferred choices were to be either a doctor or an engineer. Pretty much the decision happens based on how much marks do you get, and when you get a good grade, and they say, “Oh, you are eligible to become enrolled in a medical college. You should become a doctor or an engineer.” If not, then everything else comes afterward. Fortunately, I had good marks and my family persuaded me to become a doctor so I became a doctor. When I was still in the final year of my medical training, undergrad medical training, my friends and my family kind of nudged me to consider going to United States for post-graduation. In 1996, after I completed my med school, I went to America. I did my residency in internal medicine. Afterward, I’m in primary care doc in the VA system up there in Upstate New York. Afterward, I did my fellowship at Tulane University New Orleans, Louisiana. Afterward, almost after 10 years of being in United States, I came back to Pakistan as a professor and I joined a leading public sector University in Rohan. I started with practice, built my practice, while also setting up my medical center, which started in 2008. I juggled academic, appointment in the morning, clinic in the afternoon, as well as managing my medical center somewhere in between wherever I had time. This overlap lasted about I would say almost seven years. Joseph: Let’s go through these one at a time here. Because I know you went through a quick time-lapse of some major — both geographical and also professional changes. When you first went to the United States, did you know what kind of doctor you wanted to be? Ali: [09:05] I wanted to be a gastroenterologist. However, during my training, I tend to develop a little interest in pulmonology, that’s being a lung specialist. And then, I said, “You know what? I don’t like it either.” So, I took two years working as a primary care doc to have a feel what is actually in real life. I said either I become a rheumatologist or an endocrinologist. Since some of my family members had diabetes, I said, “I’ll become an endocrinologist.” My decision-making was not that complex. It was probably emotional in nature, I guess. Joseph: Can you explain exactly what endocrinology is? For those people who are not familiar with it. What drew you to that? I know you mentioned you knew some people who had diabetes. Was there something in particular that enabled you to choose that over the rheumatology or the pulmonology, some of those other things you were considering? Ali: [10:04] Endocrinology is primarily, in layman’s terms, is somebody who deals with hormones. But that’s an oversimplification. It is a two-year training in the United States. After you have completed three years of internal medicine residency. Most of the patients in endocrinology are pertaining to diabetes, and also thyroid and other hormonal diseases come under the ambit of endocrinology. I realized kind of during my training that I’m not a very hands-on guy. I like more intellectual work in which there is complex decision-making that requires a little bit more attention to detail. Rheumatology and endocrinology both appealed to me. There was a sense overall that the diabetes epidemic is a clear and present danger for humanity. I tended to find that to be something more relevant for me. But that was just my feeling at that time, and that’s why I pursued endocrinology. Joseph: The other thing I would love to hear about is your first years there in the United States. I know you’re focused on your medical studies there, but I’ve been to Lahore and I’ve been to Upstate New York and I’ve been to New Orleans. Those places are very different from one another. What was it like to go from Pakistan and live and learn in the United States for you during those years? Ali: [11:38] It was very challenging for several reasons. Starting from how we drive here to how we interact with patients, how do you get your children to go to school, what is the education system for them, how do you interact with your family and extended family after such a long gap. All of the things were challenges and they were welcome challenges. I believe I was ready for it. I knew because I came from here, I went from here. I was familiar with the overall situation. It took some time but I had a big support from my wife and my family. When you reach a certain level of frustration, you have a support group that helps you cope with it. That has been a great blessing for me. Joseph: The other thing I was wondering if you could talk about was this balance between being a professor at Tulane versus actually seeing patients in the clinic. Can you explain how you balance those two, and how much you enjoyed one versus the other? Ali: [12:55] Honestly, I think I enjoyed teaching more than clinical. However, clinical has its own advantages. You tend to apply what you’ve learned and you teach if you’ve been teaching to your med school students and other doctors. When you test them in real life, they kind of reaffirm as well as instigate or agitate you to perhaps do some research on them. Many of the clinical trials that are conducted in the United States, as well as in Pakistan, they were driven by the real-life scenarios, the challenges that we’re facing. In Pakistan, the research was a little different for us. Because they were so-called clinical research that was strongly anchored into the real life. We had to utilize methods in which we did not do a lot of laboratory testing, but it was worth my while. The time I spent in research in Pakistan. Joseph: You’re at Tulane University. You’re an assistant professor of medicine there. What triggered you to then return to Pakistan? Ali: [14:10] Actually, when I left, I had made my plan that I am going to return back. The psychological limit was 10 years. As soon I was close to it, I was already wrapping it up. Fortunately, there was an opportunity in which the government of Pakistan would hire you from the United States when you come back to Pakistan into a leading university. They would place you. They would pay you. They would facilitate research for you. It was a dream come true for me because that’s what kind of let me stay in academics for almost 15 years when I returned to Pakistan. Joseph: Do you remember the moment when you stepped off the airplane there in Pakistan, and what that was like for you to be back there after being away for so long? Can you take me back to that moment? Ali: [15:06] I was very happy because it was a new challenge. I knew I had the support of my family who were in Pakistan. I had the support of my wife who was also in alignment and was committed along with me to make it in Pakistan. Joseph: Before we talk about what you’re currently doing, I do want to dive a little bit deeper into your life as a doctor and as an endocrinologist. I was out to dinner with my 5-year-old daughter the other day. We were talking about the different jobs that people have in the restaurant where we were eating. She asked me, “Daddy, who has the busiest job in the world?” The very first profession that I could come up with was a doctor, which is what I actually told her. As you know, many years ago, I thought about becoming a doctor myself. One of the things that eventually convinced me not to pursue medicine was a realization that the pace and the intensity of the job was not something I was going to be able to handle. How intense was your life as an endocrinologist and what was your day-to-day life like? Ali: [16:11] It was brutal. Especially, the first three, four years after I came back to Pakistan because the challenge was that I need to demonstrate that I am fit to integrate. In the morning, from 8:00 to 2:00, I would be at the university. I would be doing clinical rounds. I would be supervising the medical doctors in the outpatient clinic, that would start somewhere like 10:30ish till 1:30. I would also be giving talks to all levels of medical students and doctors. After 2 o’clock, I would take a small break to have lunch. And then, I would start my clinic, like 3 o’clock-ish till like 7:00, 8:00. Joseph: That’s when you see your own patients between 3:00 –? Ali: [16:58] My own patients. It was a challenge in that sense that the patients at time would not follow you as you would like them to be. They have different motivations. You get frustrated that they know that this thing is not working, and they still don’t follow the advice. With time, I tend to realize that I cannot control my patients. All I can do is the best advice I can give, adjust it for them. You be keeping their socioeconomic status in mind, keeping their physical ability to take medicine in mind, keeping their support at home in mind. And if they still don’t follow, it’s up to them. This realization came after a couple of years. Because I was very much used to giving advice in the United States, and the patient would follow. Because they would — medicine will be covered by the insurance. They would have a minimum co-payment for their visit. They would keep to their appointment, but this was 180 degrees. But when I adjusted to it, I started to realize not every patient is going to be a model patient. I need to be accepting of it and not worry too much about it. That was the moment when it became a little easier. However, it was tough because patients in Pakistan demand you to be present and available even in off hours. At times, it is very inconvenient. I had to make a compromise that I had to draw a limit to when I’m going to answer their questions when even if they’re calling from home. This took some time. It was back and forth. And then, you eventually find your sweet spot. When you don’t compromise your family life and you also deliver service to your patients. Joseph: You mentioned family life there, Ali. I know you’ve got five children now. At the time, when you were working these really long days, starting off with doing rounds, 8:00 a.m., and then spending the last half of your day seeing your own patients, can you describe what your family life was like at that time? Ali: [19:12] I might have neglected and might have missed some very precious moments in an early part of my transition in the couple of years. Eventually, when things started to settle down, first, I drew a line that I will never practice on a Saturday. In America, it’s five days. In Pakistan, it was unheard of. People still practice six days a week. Second, I made a vow that I will not practice in the evening. Most people did tend to practice in the evening. Sometimes, late hours. The third thing was that I had some dedicated off hours and days, which I started to enforce in the third year after I settled in Pakistan. Eventually, I was able to carve a safe time for me and my family. It was a challenge but I did eventually find what I wanted to do. Joseph: This pace of being a doctor where you are working these long hours, seeing people who are in a lot of need, who are sick, need a lot of help, I suppose it doesn’t leave you with a tremendous amount of time to think about yourself as much. I’m curious to hear a little bit about the typical career trajectory of a doctor. In many professions and in many industries, a lot of people are thinking about, “When am I going to get promoted? Which company am I going to move to next?” In the world of physicians, in the world of doctors, how does that look in terms of your own career progression? How much do you think about it, and what does it typically look like for the average doctor? Ali: [20:56] Student academics, it is presumed that you will take the linear pathway. You will be from assistant professor to become an associate professor, then a professor. Then, you’ll become head of the department. If luck would have it, you would become dean or a principal of a medical college. That is a typical trajectory. If you’re in the private practice, you build your practice to a certain level that you’re in demand and get other people to request you to give them an early appointment. That is the other trajectory. Third is that people tend to go to administration. They tend to like to manage a system. Including managing the schedules of doctors, as well as the non-doctor support staff. Academically, I think I was already ahead of the game. So, there was not much for me to further hone but I did enjoy it. I enjoyed training other doctors to become endocrinologists like myself. That was my passion. I became an examiner. I traveled a lot to take their exams. I mentored them. I taught them. That gave me a lot of joy. As with practice, I reached the pinnacle very, very soon. That was, to be very straightforward, was very boring. Practice was somewhat not a very engaging activity for me. Joseph: Does it get repetitive to see the same type of patient? Ali: [22:31] Yes. Joseph: Because I guess most doctors are specialists. And so, I’ve always wondered what that’s like how repetitive it gets. Ali: [22:36] You’re seeing the same kind of patients: different names, different ages, different backgrounds. They pretty much have a certain level of complexity, and you tend to crave complex patients. Not the really simple ones. The really simple ones are easy breezy but there’s no intellectual challenge. That is what makes it difficult for you to keep the same enthusiasm that you would have in other challenging situation. Frankly speaking, I lost interest in practice not because it was not financially rewarding, it was not intellectually challenging for me anymore. Joseph: You’re about to talk about the administrative side of things. I know that you eventually made a pivot toward the business side of things. Can you take me through those years when you were starting to tinker with the idea of moving into the more business side of medicine? Ali: [23:37] The medical center was like if you can call it on the back burner and simmering along very nicely and quietly on a certain pace, while I was teaching and seeing patients. Something happened in 2015. The stimulus and the nudge that I got was from a younger brother, who’s also a businessman. He had attended an immersive learning activity that was a two-week workshop in Lahore in one of the leading management schools. LUMS (Lahore University of Management Sciences) is the name of it. He took it in 2013, and he was able to apply all those tools in the business. He encouraged me to attend that. I took that course in 2015. The tools, it gave me, the ability to lead my team. I was able to objectively quantify improvement in my business. That was exhilarating because it was a very different way. Being a doctor, it’s a one-man show. You are where the buck stops. You are there but you say the patient either does it or doesn’t do it. But in managing people, you need to be able to mobilize a team. The team consists of people who are very different. Some have a different aptitude. Some have different approach to work and you cannot force anything. In students, you have a certain influence. You are a senior doc. You have a gravitas, you have a certain influence. But to develop an interest in your workplace, it’s a very different approach. Once I got hooked to it, I was not turning back. Joseph: How do you balance both the clinical and the medical director work during the early years of that transition into eventually running Wilcare? Ali: [25:42] I hired a few people for the lead positions, including the administrative positions. Unfortunately, even that is somewhat true now, if they are good administrators, they don’t understand the medical or the healthcare business. If they are doctors, they are not good administrators. The challenge is there because the healthcare industry is still not as well-developed as in the United States. You have to groom them in-house. That is the conclusion I came up with. In the initial years, it was very frustrating. Because when you are relying on someone to take care of your day-to-day task and it doesn’t get done, then you have to do it. To be in the firefighting mode, it’s very frustrating. That can easily be the summary of my first seven years, up till 2015 when I tried I had to make compromises. I had to try different people try to gel in and develop a culture. After 2015, I started to discipline myself, manage myself. And then, I started to get the people to work accordingly and did not — they were asked to move on. I eventually started to make a team that was aligned with my vision. Joseph: Balancing two different worlds can be tricky. It’s something we talk about a lot on this show. You’ve got your day job, like your actual job. And then, you’ve got this other side interest that you’re nurturing and developing. At some point, it becomes very hard to balance the two. Did you experience that, and at what point did you decide that you had to make a choice to commit to one or the other? Ali: [27:45] In 2015, I was appointed as a professor in Islamabad, the capital city of Pakistan. Since I was going to be there five days a week, I cut down my clinic to one day a week in Lahore. At that time, administration was 30%, clinical 10%, and the rest 50% was academic activity in Islamabad. In 2017, I quit academics totally and I cut down my clinical to 5%, and 95% was administration. At this time, that is pretty much the similar ratio. My clinical is now a barely 5% and it’s restricted to friends and families. Rest of the time is administration, mobilization, and team building for Wilcare. Joseph: Do you feel like this was a natural evolution? Or did you have to make some choices at some point to say, “I’m going to stop seeing a certain number of patients. I’m not going to be in the classroom anymore.” I’m just curious to hear about whether this happened on its own, or did you make some intentional moves to make this happen. Ali: [28:56] I wanted to get out of my comfort zone, and I wanted to go to a different academic university out of town, out of Lahore, so I can increase my exposure and learning. I knew that if I go out of Lahore, I will have to cut down my clinical practice and that was desired. Because if you’re in Lahore, people expect you to come in and see them even if you don’t want to. Because they see you, you are here, just come and see me and it becomes a challenge. It was somewhat intentional. By not resuming clinical after leaving my government job in 2017, that was definitely intentional. Because I could not go back to my doctor’s chambers and start seeing patients again. It’s just that life is too short to not do what you want to do. Joseph: That’s interesting. I think a lot of us have different interests and many of us have also invested into a particular path in our careers. Now, becoming a doctor requires many years of education, training, experience. Was that hard for you at all to let go of seeing patients or not? Ali: [30:07] Not at all. Joseph: Not at all. Ali: [30:09] I was mentally prepared, and it was tough for my friends who referred patients to me because they trusted me. What I did was intentionally transitioned. Another colleague of mine who I referred all my patients in my absence to her so that she can build her practice. There was no excuse, “Oh, who do I get go and see?” I say, “Well, you can go and see her. She’s there.” But they would say, “Oh, she’s not you.” “Yes,” I say. “Yeah, that’s fine. But she’s as good or even better than me.” Joseph: As you think about the doctors in your sphere professionally, I’m guessing there’s probably others that you know who maybe want to make a shift out of the clinical world and do more of what you’re doing, which is more of the business administrative side of things. What do you think stops doctors from letting go of the clinical side of things? Ali: [31:04] It is the ego. When the patient comes and sees you for their ailment, you feel good in your heart. It boosts your ego. It makes you as if you have made a difference. This instant gratification holds you back. Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with what some of your interests are outside of medicine are the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. Because I know you’ve made a couple major pivots here, both geographically and also in the nature of your work. What is something that you wished you had known about branching off to do something else in your career that you now know having made this transition from clinical endocrinologist to medical director? Ali: [31:54] They always felt I knew everything, even if it’s not something to do with medicine. I heavily discounted the skill sets, the attitude, and the work ethic of people around me. This held me back because I was not appreciative enough of them, I was not grateful to them, I was not acknowledging them. So, if I had early on realized that, “You know what? I can do work maximum of two or three people. But if I have a well-honed team of people, like 10 people, I can do work of 30.” This realization came a little late, but better late than sorry, I guess. I think the biggest influence one book that made in my life was “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.” It gave me hope. This is the book by Robert Kiyosaki. It gave me hope that even if you are working, you can become a businessman eventually. If you want to, do it side by side. That was one of the practical things that I learned. Similarly, other books when I started reading non-medical books, I came across a wealth of information and knowledge that how one can shift gears, take new challenges, and develop a business while still doing or working for someone. Joseph: If you had to give advice to your younger self about what it takes to make your career in medicine evolve into what it’s become right now, what would that be? Ali: [33:47] Marshall Goldsmith had very eloquently mentioned that we have a program identity and we have a created identity. Many times, we are working on a programmer identity most of our life, that is shaped at the age of 3 to 23. I would strongly urge the younger people to dig deeper and find out what are you, what do you think you are, and why do you want to do this work. Create your own identity. Do you want to be a practicing doctor? Just go for it. You need to know why you want to do it. Because you like to treat people one-on-one. Do you want to create a system in which the patients or customers or clients they come in and get good service, and you think you can do it by being an administrator? Go for that. If you find that you want to create a culture in which the society benefits from your presence, and you are able to build a system in the community by working for the government, or by teaching, become a professor. You need to know why you want to do something. Don’t keep doing it because somebody has told you early on, “You are good at this.” Dig deeper, find out what are you good at, what makes you happy, and what do you enjoy. Joseph: Finally, what’s something you’ve learned about yourself, Ali, as you’ve made this move from the clinical side of medicine to the business side of medicine? Ali: [35:18] I need to have patience. Another thing I want to know is that I need to have a certain stock gap or some kind of a limit to procrastination. I need to take action. Because I cannot keep on planning things forever. I need to get feedback from all stakeholders around because I may not have all the right answers or I might have missed something which can either illuminate and can make the process or project a success. Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with some of your interests outside of medicine and the medical world, Ali. We had a chance to spend a bit of time together last month when I was in Lahore, both at my workshop and also afterward over dinner and I know you have a lot of different interests. Let’s just pick one here. Can you tell me a little bit more about your interest in food security, which I know is another area you’re very passionate about? Ali: [36:14] It’s simply fascinating. I came across this concept when there was a USAID grant program for people to set up a business. One of the areas they had was agriculture. When I dig deeper, I came across that almost 70% of the fruit and vegetables that are produced in Pakistan, get lost after harvesting. I thought this was a huge loss. What if there is a way to save it? When you save it and you make it useful for the people to consume it, maybe you can contribute significantly to reduce hunger in the world. This has been my passion since 2017, and I had been studying it. I had the chance to interact with a lot of people, especially the young entrepreneurs. Recently, I came across a couple of entrepreneurs who are working on projects to extract value from fruits so that they are able to reduce waste and create food that is to be consumed by the people. I feel that if courage ordinary people, students, and other business-inclined people to start looking at it that how we can save fruit, food, vegetables, and grains so that they can be useful for people in Pakistan and the world. This could really change the landscape. With climate change, the food scarcity roaming around all over the world, this could be a very good way to secure food for the world. Joseph: Very interesting, Ali. I just really appreciated you taking the time today to tell us more about your time as an endocrinologist, your shift into the business side of medicine, and also the importance of making sure you take the time to understand your motivations behind your career moves. So, best of luck with everything at Wilcare, your interest in food security and scarcity, and also with everything you’ve got going on there in Lahore.

Controlling your own professional narrative is especially important when you’re changing career paths. Proactively taking control of your own narrative helps you ensure that your unique value and aspirations come through clearly and convincingly. On episode 94 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, HR adviser turned executive coach Maura Lightfoot shares her thoughts on finding your voice in an environment where you’re an outlier and the importance of identifying the common thread across all your diverse professional experiences.  I also share some thoughts on the importance of owning your own narrative during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Working abroad gives you an opportunity to find your unique voice when you are an outlier and minority in your workplace. When you’re proud of the work you do and an organization values someone with your unique skillset and background, that’s a sign you’re working for the right employer. Working in a mission-driven world doesn’t preclude you from burnout. In fact, you may be more susceptible to burnout because you’re so passionate about your work. Find the common thread across your work. Everyone has the power to author their own story. Often, you must go through a bit of messy upheaval in your career before you eventually find your way. It’s just part of the journey. Listener Challenge My challenge to you is to take some time to identify the common thread across all the work you currently do and have done in the past. What’s been your common motivation across your roles? What’s the singular purpose that gets you out of bed each day? Try to capture it in words and see how it sits with you. Share that statement with others to see how it lands with them. Making an effort to articular this can hopefully provide you with some clarity and direction when exploring new opportunities and communicating what you bring to the table in those situations. About Maura Lightfoot, Executive Coach Maura Lightfoot knows a lot about taking control of your professional narrative. Consistent throughout Maura’s career has been her drive to empower others in their work. From human resources in the Middle East to financial services management consulting in London to nonprofit organizational culture in Washington D.C., Maura’s international experience equips her with a unique perspective that’s both grounded and global. Now an executive leadership coach, Maura works with clients around the world including North America, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Learn more about Maura’s coaching work or connect with her on LinkedIn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Bountiful Podington Bear – Many Hands Ookean – Paintings Podington Bear – Pink Gradient Podington Bear – Loll Podington Bear – Leftover Fog Bio Unit – Aerial Episode Interview Transcript Maura: [03:01] Thank you so much for having me, Joseph. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m so delighted to reconnect in this way, and really looking forward to the conversation. Joseph: Well, let’s get started by getting a glimpse into what’s happening for you at this particular moment. What are you focused on right now in your career and also your life? Maura: [03:19] I’m currently based in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. It’s wonderful because it’s rich in culture. It’s an incredibly diverse place to live, and so we’re enjoying that. As a result of that, and sort of related to that, I’ve had the benefit of working for an international non-for-profit over the past few years. Most recently, I’ve moved into executive leadership coaching. I’m now working with leaders on how and where they show up in the workplace, which is very exciting. Joseph: I also know that you are a mother of two young boys. How do you go about balancing that with starting a new coaching practice? Maura: [03:58] They are a handful, 4 and 6 years old. We do have help. I wouldn’t be able to do this without our wonderful nanny who’s been with us for a few years. One of the benefits of coaching for me, and the reason I made the transition, is to spend more time with them. Being able to spend time with them in the afternoons, and have special time together has made a big difference. Even just the last few months in our relationship, which have been great. Joseph: I’m also, as you know, a career consultant. I know that since moving into working for myself, it has definitely been helpful as a parent. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It definitely offers you some flexibility that you wouldn’t necessarily get if you were in a traditional full-time, corporate role. As I know, you and I have both been in the past. You haven’t always been an executive coach, and I do want to come back to that toward the end to explore your journey into coaching. But could we just go back and talk a little bit about some of the major transitions that you’ve had in your life? We’re going to cover some major geographical transitions, some functional and role changes that you’ve experienced. But I’d love to just go back in time and talk about really the beginning part of your career. As I understand it, you did your undergraduate studies at the University of Pennsylvania. What were you studying at the time and what were your initial career plans? Maura: [05:21] I was at Penn. I was an Anthropology, major; African studies, minor. I pursued that because I loved people. I mean to put it very simply, I loved connecting with people and understanding more about their systems and the dynamics between them, intra- and inter-system connections and dynamics. And so, I was able to pursue that in my studies. I did know at the time that I didn’t want to be an anthropologist sort of an academic professionally. So, that opened the door to what’s next. I had this incredible study abroad experience as part of my African studies minor where I was able to spend almost four months in South Africa in an immersion program. We had four homestays. We learned Xhosa through an intensive language study. I found myself in environments that were completely foreign to me and absolutely loved it. I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do after undergrad, but I knew I wanted to sort of replicate that experience in some way. Joseph: Now, you posted on LinkedIn last month, which reminded me of you and the work that you’re doing, that you said that one of your top priorities when you were graduating from Penn was to get a job overseas. Why was that so important to you? Maura: [06:40] It all started with that experience studying abroad. I can’t sort of thank the people that were involved in that enough. I grew up in South Jersey. I went to school 20 minutes from home, and very supportive family, and really wonderful environments. I wanted to experience a diverse setting, an environment that was different from that in which I grew up. I was able to do that in my undergrad studies. Wanted to do that again when I graduated. And so, I applied for programs and jobs that were in really kind of remote places. Places you wouldn’t think of necessarily. Joseph: Could you give a sampling of a few of the places you were thinking about going to? Maura: [07:25] Mexico was probably the closest place. I was looking at Peru. I was looking at Vietnam. My two job offers — actually, I only had two in the end. It came down to teaching in Ulan Bator in Mongolia and becoming an HR recruiter in Doha, Qatar. And so, that’s how I ended up in Doha. Joseph: How did you make the decision to go to Qatar over Mongolia? What was the main motivation there? If you can think back that far. I know this is a while back. Maura: [07:56] For me, it came down to the job description itself. It came down to the role that I was doing. I was looking not just for what that was going to be in the moment, but something that would put me in a position that I could sort of leverage that into something, at a later time, that was more a longer trajectory that I was interested in pursuing professionally. So, it was teaching English in Ulan Bator. Very exciting, huge geographic area. I mean there’s so much to do in Mongolia. Doha, Qatar itself, I should say is much smaller. I was moving at the time into an HR role, which I think for myself and my interest gave me kind of a bigger platform that I could then use to springboard into something else in the future. Joseph: Now, I’ve never been to Qatar myself, Maura. I know it’s been in the news a lot lately with the World Cup. I have hosted a webinar for some execs out there. But I don’t know what life is like there on the ground. Could you give me a glimpse into what daily life was like for you there, as someone in her early 20s who had just moved there from the United States? Maura: [09:04] Well, the country itself is only about 2 or 3% Qatari. Not sure exactly the latest numbers, but it’s 98 to 97%, at the time at least when I was there, foreign nationals. There are people from all over the world that go to Doha to work. I was moving into a position working for a construction management firm. We had staff from all over the Middle East, from Australia, from Malaysia, from Canada, from the United States, from the U.K., from Ireland. I mean, all over the world. For in terms of the people that were based in the office, which I was, that was a smaller percentage of staff. Because most of our employees were actually out on construction sites and project sites. So, for those who are in the office every day, I was, myself, the youngest by at least 10 years. I was the only woman who wasn’t a secretary in a secretarial position. I was the only White person. I was the only native English speaker. And, I was the newest person to arrive to the office. Everyone else had been there for at least a few months. It was an incredibly intense, intimidating environment. The people there were very kind, very nice, for the most part. But it was a lot it was a huge transition. On a personal level, I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Doha. I’d gotten the job in the U.S., and was on a plane within two weeks of my job interview. I [knew] a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, had one tenuous connection over Facebook that ended up kind of connecting me into a whole social network that I became friends with. But when I first landed, and for a few weeks, I was completely on my own. So, it was very intense. Joseph: We are, coincidentally, we didn’t plan it this way. But we’re recording this on International Women’s Day. Maura: [11:03] That’s true. Joseph: You mentioned that you were the only female in the office who was in a non-secretarial role, one of the youngest, clearly someone who was an outlier and a minority in so many ways, age, race. What was that like for you in the office on a day-to-day basis? Did you think about it? Did it manifest in any way? Did it affect you? If so, how? Maura: [11:25] It did certainly manifest. There are also cultural differences, which I came across, I mean continuously throughout my time there. I think the biggest thing that I had to figure out in that setting was, how do I find my voice? I would say find my feet, but it really became, how do I find my voice? As a woman who came from a family and a culture of strong women, that supports women, wants women to flourish and do well. Not everyone that I was with in that environment shared that sentiment. I, myself, experienced harassment, and inappropriate comments, and managers who didn’t want to support women or kind of thought women had a place that was different than the office, and told me as much. Told me that I would have a ceiling that was very low because I would have to have children someday, and that wasn’t very far off. Not only did I have to find my voice and stand up for myself, I also found that as I did that, other women both in the office and out on the project sites, came to me for support in dealing with the kind of situations that they were facing themselves. I became an advocate for them as well. To the extent where I ended up moving to the Dubai office. I actually ended up putting together an anti-harassment training, which I delivered across the region to other regional offices across the UAE, Qatar, and also Bahrain. That became a key part of the work that I created for myself in that role, and what I wanted to kind of leave behind. Joseph: Very interesting. Sometimes, I think about this, Maura. Because this is 2023, and you kind of hoped that we’ve made some progress in terms of gender equality and women being able to have the same opportunities in the workplace. Again, I’m making some broad generalizations here, but I’m assuming that they’re in a more patriarchal environment. That no matter what you do, it’s kind of hard to get ahead. Would you say that’s a fair characterization or not? Maura: [13:37] I don’t disagree. I would certainly say that women are seen very differently in patriarchal societies through the lens of those who hold on to that view because it’s not just a society as a whole. We all know people who see life in that through that lens, and women are seen differently. It manifests and kind of shows up in the way that they’re spoken to and the expectations that are put on them. Opportunities are not seen to be connected to women in the same way as they are with men. It was a very bizarre experience to have that in 2008 to 2010, not that long ago. I found myself at the age of 22, educating middle-aged men as to the art of what’s possible for women because I grew up with very strong female role models, including my mother who worked and raised four children. And, these men telling me, “Well, enjoy it while it lasts because in a not too distant future, you’re going to have to get married and have kids. And then, your career will be over,” was not my story. I found it important that they knew that, and that they understood that expectations for women don’t have to be different than they do for men certainly. Joseph: I just got back from Pakistan just last week. I was out there for a few days hosting some workshops and I did have a conversation with a woman out there who was talking to me about the gender dynamics there. Again, broadly generalizing a slightly more patriarchal society, just the challenges that still exist right now and it’s hard to navigate it. As someone myself, who is American, when I go into a different culture, sometimes I struggle with how much to voice my views on how things could be versus just the way that it’s been accepted in whatever society I’m in. I struggle with that sometimes. How did you manage that? Like balancing your opinions versus the societal norms in a very different part of the world. Maura: [15:45] I think what I did was not try to project. The big exception being a straight-up harassment case because I did deal with those. That’s, of course, inappropriate. My opinion is that that’s inappropriate in any culture and regardless of gender. But with that being the exception, I mean I tried to explain to people what my views were for myself. Rather than say, “Hey, your expectations for yourself as a woman in this culture are lower than they should be.” Or, “Your expectations for your wife are lower than they should be.” It wasn’t a judgment about others. It was just to say, “Look. This is what I expect for myself, and I know I can do it because I’ve seen other people do it.” So, trying to kind of raise that ceiling through the stories about myself and my own narrative rather than judging others. Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about your transition. I know this is just one of the many that we’re going to cover today. So, you’re working in this firm in Qatar, and you’re working in HR. What triggered you to move to London after that? Can you remember what your motivation was in making that move? Maura: [17:10] I can. I’m married to him now. Joseph: That is often the reason why people make international moves. Maura: [17:18] That was very professional and sort of personal driven by me. I ended up, as I said, I didn’t know anyone when I got there. I ended up meeting this great group of people. One of whom I started dating. He got into a Master’s Program in London and said, “Do you want to come with me?” I said, “Sure. I’ll go. I speak English,” which was a big mistake because the English language in the U.K. is very different from American English. I managed to get a Visa for myself, a work Visa, while I was still in Dubai. And then, I moved from there to the U.K. with my work Visa, but with no job. Joseph: I see. This was 2010. Is that right? Maura: [17:54] Yes. Joseph: But I guess the Visa restrictions were not quite as well restrictive at the time. Maura: [17:59] When you’re applying for a job in another country — and I think this is true in most countries. You either need your own Visa, which has a work status, or you need to be sponsored by an organization. Being able to get that U.K. work Visa in Dubai meant that I was applying for jobs in London with the Visa. So, I didn’t need the company sponsorship, which just helped to be honest. Joseph: Can you remember how it felt when you landed in London back in a predominantly English-speaking country? That is, I guess, at least for all intents and purposes, as different as it can get from a place like Dubai, or Qatar, or Doha. Maura: [18:40] I still say this: it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I thought moving to London would be easy for all the reasons that you would assume. It’s incredibly bureaucratic. I wasn’t at the time a British national. We luckily had a family connection, and so we’re able to kind of get an address. Even just getting a cell phone, which you need to apply for jobs because they need to be able to call you, was really actually very challenging. Joseph: Yeah. It is tricky. Maura: [19:12] As much as there wasn’t a language barrier, it was much more bureaucratic, which I found challenging. Joseph: So, you do land in London, you do finally manage to get a mobile phone, and a bank account and those kinds of things you need to get your life started there. Maura: [19:24] Exactly. Joseph: You move to ERM, environmental resources management, and are still working in HR. Could you explain what your trajectory was there? And then, ultimately, what triggered you to then decide to pursue your MBA? Maura: [19:40] So, the challenge in working in HR, and then moving to a different country, is that there’s an expectation when you’re working with personnel that you understand employment law, which I didn’t and still really don’t in the U.K. However, ERM had this great position open which was in the international HR team. So, in their global HR team. Where I was able to work on more strategy-related projects, and I fell into learning and development, which I loved. Always on a global scale, supporting the staff around the world. That worked out really well that I was still applying my HR skill set, and the work that I’d done previously, but on a global scale. I was able to sort of overcome the lack of local employment law issue in that way. As I kind of really got into that work more, I identified that my area of interest was, is/was, the overlap between business and culture. Obviously, I had a degree in culture anthropology. I’ve lived and worked in, at the time it was five, now, it’s almost 10 countries. I had done the HR work, kind of working with people across different cultures. On the business side, I’d worked for these international organizations. But I felt that I wanted to really bolster my business acumen to more to really round out that side of things. That’s where the MBA came in. To give me kind of a stronger business skill set, that business knowledge, if you will. Joseph: This was an MBA at the Cambridge Judge Business School, which is where you and I first crossed paths. Maura: [21:11] Yes. Joseph: It must have been early 2015, or something like that. Maura: [21:16] Yeah, that’s right. Joseph: I guess eight years ago. During that time, you made another shift, and this is oftentimes, the motivation in pursuing an MBA is to make a bit of a pivot. Now, in this case, you made a pivot into the management consulting world, which is not an easy pivot to make. It’s a very esteemed sector. Can you explain how you managed to go from working in HR and learning and development, and then landing a pretty high-profile management consulting role at Deutsche Bank in financial services? Maura: [21:50] I really wanted to round out my professional experience and expertise. I did use the MBA as a pivot opportunity, exactly as you said, and was able to find through one of the recruitment events that business schools often host. A management consulting group that was actually internal to the organization — so Deutsche Bank has an internal management consulting arm, which is a very German model. There are a number of companies that do this. They have a slightly different mindset and approach to the more externally facing management consultancies. I ended up connecting with this group that was really open to people of diverse backgrounds and experiences and saw the value in getting people’s kind of perspectives that weren’t strictly from financial services. I think that’s key to any transition, is kind of being able to find people that are attracted to diversity and attracted to maybe a different skill set and see the benefit of that in the work that they’re doing. And so, GMC group management consulting did that. I found a home there and a team that was really wonderful, and I had an incredible experience there. Joseph: How would you describe the major differences between working and consulting, versus your prior roles? Maura: [23:06] Working in consulting was a painfully steep learning curve, I have to say. I moved from talking with people around the world and developing training that I delivered over webinars to staff across different countries, to sitting in an office for 10 hours a day with no windows in front of a laptop, crunching client data. Using Excel skills that were way beyond my capabilities at the time, and was completely thrown in the deep end. Very high pressure, very high profile, hyperintense, and just completely different with a life that revolved around Excel and PowerPoint. More than kind of the people connection, which I was so used to in the past. Part of my job in the Gulf was driving around the different construction sites, or even flying out to different offices and different countries, and meeting with people and hearing about their issues. My first 10 months at Deutsche Bank, I was sitting as I said in a windowless room in front of Excel with four other consultants. That’s kind of where we were, which is when you think of consulting, that’s often what you think of. Not all of my projects were like that, but it was a complete 180. Joseph: I’m going to read between the lines here a little bit, and correct me if I’m wrong with it. It sounds like you were perhaps more in your natural element in the HR world perhaps because it was your first set of roles, and perhaps because you’d always had an interest in the human side of things. And then, you go into this role, which is very different. As you mentioned, focused around PowerPoint and Excel. How do you reconcile this situation? Where sometimes, you’re in a role where you’re learning a lot, but maybe you don’t feel like it is quite you. How did you think about how long to continue doing that? Because sometimes, what happens is people go into these roles and they do it because they want to learn something, or they want to “do their time.” Especially in consulting. How did you think about how long to stay in that world? Or was that even part of your thought process at the time? Maura: [25:22] It absolutely was. Part of my frustration with HR was people see it as really soft. Or sort of out of touch with the operations or the business side of things, which is why I wanted to kind of connect in that business and culture, those two pieces together, and therefore, I needed more of that business side. I sort of jumped in the deep end in that sense and kind of went to a place that was much, much more focused on the business than the people at least in so many ways, and I anticipated that. And so, I went into a thinking, “This is not forever.” On those really long, really painful days, I thought, “This isn’t forever, right?” I sort of thought that three years seems to be this kind of magic number that I hold in my head when I make transitions. “If I could do this for three years, that’s fine.” Sometimes, it’s two, and sometimes, it’s five. But I sort of hold three years as some type of number for me, which feels manageable and comfortable because it’s a commitment, but it’s not a life sentence. Whatever that number is for others, even if again it doesn’t work out that way. But just to kind of go into something thinking, “Okay. Well, what am I comfortable with? What can I commit to? So, that I’m fully present to what I’m doing and able to really kind of make the most of this time, but I’m not also overwhelmed by, ‘Oh my gosh! I’m stuck here.'” That’s how I looked at it. I ended up staying at Deutsche Bank for almost five years. It did work out quite well for me. Joseph: You would eventually move back to the U.S., which is where you’re now based. How did you come to that decision to move back to the U.S. after going on this incredible journey through the Gulf region, and then to Europe? What triggered you to make that move? Maura: [27:16] While I was at Deutsche Bank, we had two children, our two boys, and had outgrown our flat in London and needed to make a decision of, “Okay. We need to move out. Do we move out to a bigger place in the U.K., or do we move to the U.S.?” For family reasons, for personal reasons, we decided to move to the U.S. I struggled sometimes to say, “Is it back to the U.S. or just to the U.S.?” Because our professional lives, I made my entire professional life, at that point, had been overseas. So, we made the decision to come back here, as I said, just outside of Washington, D.C., which is a very international place which gives me a lot of solace and joy. We have neighbors and friends from all over the world, and also who have a lot of global experience which kind of eased that transition a bit. Joseph: I’ve always wondered about what it’s like to go — I know you said you’d never worked in the U.S. So it was moving to the U.S. At the same time, you’d spent your whole childhood and college years in the United States. What’s it been like for you? Because this was in 2020, right? So you’re coming up to, I guess, three years back in the U.S. Is that correct? Maura: [28:31] Yeah. We moved in late 2019. It was actually six months before COVID lockdown, which is a weird time to transition to a new place. Joseph: I’ll bet. Maura: [28:40] I found that people assumed that we were from here. I mean, we are from here. I’m from New Jersey. But people ask you, “Where are you from?” And you say, “New Jersey,” and they say, “Okay.” Then, they’ve kind of fill in the blanks and assume that that’s been your life, and they don’t understand. They don’t know that I identify as from New Jersey, and so much more than that. It was confusing coming back here and talking with my sister about Roth IRAs, and things like that that my younger sister had more experience with this than I did. Getting frustrated with utilities, and things in my neighbor saying, “What do you mean you don’t understand how it works here?” There are sort of assumptions that because I sound like I do and I look like I do, is that I understood how things work here and I have that lived experience. But, actually, I didn’t necessarily have that lived experience of working professionally in the United States. That’s been a very odd transition, and it’s very easy for us to compare life here to life elsewhere. Primarily, in the U.K. The D.C. area is a great place to be, and we’re enjoying that as well. It’s wonderful to be closer to family. That’s been wonderful. Joseph: So, you go back to the United States, and then you shift into what I’m going to describe — I’m going to put a label on this, but into more of the “mission-driven world.” Oftentimes, when I speak with people who have spent time working in the for-profit corporate world, as you had up until this point, I know that people can sometimes be drawn to more mission-driven organizations. I’m curious what your motivation was in shifting into a more mission-driven world? Then, we can talk a little bit about the realities of that world. Maura: [30:30] While I was at Deutsche Bank, there were a number of corruptions and scandals that were uncovered in the press. As I said, the management consulting group that I was part of was wonderful. The organization, as a whole, was not a place that I was always proud to say I worked when people ask. And so, that’s when I was then leaving, I wanted to find a place and land somewhere where I was really proud to say that I worked there. The D.C. area has a lot of international organizations, international [not-for]-profits. I had the benefit of looking around and saying, “Okay. Well, what are the organizations that I would be proud to work for?” And so, as you say that mission-driven component was very much important to me and a key part of what I was looking for in that next step. Joseph: What were your perceptions of working in the more mission-driven world, and then what was the reality that you experienced? Maura: [31:23] I thought it would be everyone sort of gung-ho supporting a cause that we all believed in. I ended up at the International Baccalaureate. The global component of my work up to that point was still part of the work that I was doing as the head of global employee experience. I loved the work. It very much was gung-ho. We’re all supporting this cause: creating education to make a more peaceful world. I mean, what a mission! The people that truly are passionate about it. That was a wonderful place to be. There’s the flip side to it. People that are so passionate and so mission-driven expect a lot of themselves. One thing that I learned is that there’s a lot of burnouts that happen in mission-driven organizations. Not that there isn’t elsewhere, but certainly more than I expected. I thought, “Well, I’ll be leaving behind these crazy hours at Deutsche Bank,” and that wasn’t the case. I found in the mission-driven, not-for-profit world, people are very much working their tails off and some people are really burning out. In part, because they are so passionate. I was not expecting that. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to discuss with you before we wrap up by talking about your recent shift into the corporate world are some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your interesting career journey. Something you said in your LinkedIn post was that, “Our greatest learning often happens outside our comfort zone where we’re forced to grapple with the uncomfortable, the challenging, and the uncertain.” What’s something that you learned by working in those environments where you were a complete outlier? Maura: [33:10] I would say the key thing is being really aware of yourself, who you are, what you need, and being able to advocate for yourself is critical. That’s where I think became grounded in who I was out of necessity. That’s made a huge difference then in being able to kind of make other pivots because I know where I’m centered from. I know where I’m sort of moving from at my core. Joseph: Speaking of which, what is something that you wished you had known about making major career changes and making major geographical moves that you now know? Maura: [34:09] I wish I had known that I would be able to tell a convincing story that people would actually be attracted to that. So often, I was told that there should be some kind of worry or concern, a fear of making a change, or reasons, focus on the reasons to not do it. What I found was I was always able to find opportunities where that was an advantage. I wish that I had known that that was going to be the case. To not kind of move from a place of worry, but actually to move from a place of opportunity. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know that you’ve recently made the move into the coaching world. Can you explain what that has been like for you to move from working as a full-time employee to starting your own coaching practice? Maura: [35:05] For myself, to be able to explain that, and for other people to kind of follow, those shifts is to have sort of a common thread throughout that. For me, the connection throughout all the changes I’ve made is that I am motivated by the ability to empower others in their work. That’s what gets me out of bed. What I’ve done most recently is I’ve moved from empowering others in their work from a kind of organizational level, working in employee experience at a global organization, to empowering others in their work on a one-to-one level as an executive leadership coach. What I’m finding is that the frustrations that I’ve had with organizations in the past, that change is too slow. It takes too much time for organizations to really make meaningful transitions, et cetera. That is all wiped away when you’re working one-to-one with individuals. There’s change happening you know within 45 minutes, within a single call. Let alone over six months or so. It’s been incredibly exciting, energizing, gratifying, and humbling to be witness to that change and to be part of people’s journeys as they’re figuring out where they want to show up, and how they want to show up and to support them as they grow and transform. Joseph: What have you found challenging about this specific transition? Maura: [36:31] It can be a bit lonely. I’m a very collaborative person. I love working with teams. Being a one-to-one exec leadership coach is a bit lonely. I’m starting to expand that and work with teams and do more consulting work, which is great. That’s been kind of the biggest challenge so far. Joseph: When we were prepping for this call, I remember you mentioning something about this concept of a metamorphosis related to a caterpillar going to a butterfly. You mentioned this concept of “bug soup.” Could you just remind me, what’s that all about, and how has that related to your journey, into coaching? Maura: [37:09] I started this transition back in August, September last year, which is around the same time in the northeast of the United States when Monarch butterfly caterpillars go into their chrysalis. We happened to have a caterpillar and we’re doing this with my kids as an activity. We’re doing a lot of research into what’s happening, so we can explain to them. I learned at that time that actually when a chrysalis is formed, if you were to open it up prematurely, in the middle of the metamorphosis, it’s actually a green goo that you’d find inside. What happens is the caterpillar breaks down all of its — okay, I’m not a scientist, that’s my disclaimer. It breaks down kind of all of its softer parts, into this bug soup, and then, it reconstructs into the butterfly. And then, when it’s ready, it opens and we know what happens after that. And so, I was really struck as I was going through this process of establishing my own coaching practice by also learning about this concept of bug soup. I thought, “Well, that’s what’s happening to me.” I’m in the middle of this bug soup, where I sort of feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m stepping out on my own, and I’m moving from the comfort and security of a pay check in an organization and a team to being completely on my own and building a business. I’m bug soup. I think the lesson there for me is that kind of acknowledging that it was — as I had an MBA professor said, the messy middle, that that’s okay. That’s part of the process. And, sort of trusting that I’ll come out on the other side in some form or another. Hopefully, a good one that can fly. But that was comforting for me at the time to kind of know that even animals go through, our bugs, go through this and I wasn’t so different in that sense. Joseph: Speaking of this metamorphosis, the final question for you, Maura. What’s something you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve made this shift from the corporate world into starting your independent executive coaching practice? Maura: [39:15] A key lesson for me has been, and continues to be, that I can and do every day author my own story. It’s something that I talk with my coaching clients about in terms of what’s your story and the power of stories. So often, we tell ourselves certain things, we tell ourselves stories. There’s a narrative in our heads, and that is so powerful in terms of shaping who we are and how we show up. We’re talking about career transitions. Everyone has the power to author their own story. I talked to my coaching clients about this. The power of stories that we tell ourselves, the narratives in our heads, we all have it. The stories that we create, that we narrate, both looking back in terms of what we want to glean from where we’ve come from and also looking forward, in terms of where we want to go and how we’re going to get there are instrumental in shaping us as personal, as individuals and as professionals. I think there are kind of three key things in terms of making those transitions successful. The self-awareness and reflection to actually consider what are your skills, what are the gaps, what do you desire, and what’s the rationale for that. There’s a need to understand what others need. Whether it’s an individual or a system. How can you fit into their needs? How can you kind of bring, as I sort of mentioned as an example, the human side to the consulting work? How is that going to benefit that organization, as an example? And then, the third is to be able to tell a convincing and authentic story. If you can do those three things, that’s it. That’s the magic. Everyone can do that. I truly believe it. Everyone has the ability to do this. Joseph: Well, if people are interested in learning more about what you do, or if they need some help with figuring out the human side of their own career story and crafting their own narrative, where can people go to learn more about you or the coaching work that you do? Maura: [41:21] LinkedIn. I’m Maura Connell Lightfoot. My organization is MCL Coaching and Consulting. Anyone can find me on LinkedIn, or at mclcoaching.org. Joseph: Thank you so much, Maura, for reconnecting. It’s nice to speak with you again after all these years, and telling us more about your life and the Gulf, your various InterContinental moves, how you’ve overcome the challenges along the way, and also some of your own reflections as you have continued to evolve your own career. So, best of luck with your executive coaching endeavors, authoring this chapter of your own career story and also empowering others to do the same in their professional lives. Thanks for coming on to the show. Maura: [42:02] Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s been my pleasure. I appreciate it. Maura: [03:01] Thank you so much for having me, Joseph. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m so delighted to reconnect in this way, and really looking forward to the conversation. Joseph: Well, let’s get started by getting a glimpse into what’s happening for you at this particular moment. What are you focused on right now in your career and also your life? Maura: [03:19] I’m currently based in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. It’s wonderful because it’s rich in culture. It’s an incredibly diverse place to live, and so we’re enjoying that. As a result of that, and sort of related to that, I’ve had the benefit of working for an international non-for-profit over the past few years. Most recently, I’ve moved into executive leadership coaching. I’m now working with leaders on how and where they show up in the workplace, which is very exciting. Joseph: I also know that you are a mother of two young boys. How do you go about balancing that with starting a new coaching practice? Maura: [03:58] They are a handful, 4 and 6 years old. We do have help. I wouldn’t be able to do this without our wonderful nanny who’s been with us for a few years. One of the benefits of coaching for me, and the reason I made the transition, is to spend more time with them. Being able to spend time with them in the afternoons, and have special time together has made a big difference. Even just the last few months in our relationship, which have been great. Joseph: I’m also, as you know, a career consultant. I know that since moving into working for myself, it has definitely been helpful as a parent. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It definitely offers you some flexibility that you wouldn’t necessarily get if you were in a traditional full-time, corporate role. As I know, you and I have both been in the past. You haven’t always been an executive coach, and I do want to come back to that toward the end to explore your journey into coaching. But could we just go back and talk a little bit about some of the major transitions that you’ve had in your life? We’re going to cover some major geographical transitions, some functional and role changes that you’ve experienced. But I’d love to just go back in time and talk about really the beginning part of your career. As I understand it, you did your undergraduate studies at the University of Pennsylvania. What were you studying at the time and what were your initial career plans? Maura: [05:21] I was at Penn. I was an Anthropology, major; African studies, minor. I pursued that because I loved people. I mean to put it very simply, I loved connecting with people and understanding more about their systems and the dynamics between them, intra- and inter-system connections and dynamics. And so, I was able to pursue that in my studies. I did know at the time that I didn’t want to be an anthropologist sort of an academic professionally. So, that opened the door to what’s next. I had this incredible study abroad experience as part of my African studies minor where I was able to spend almost four months in South Africa in an immersion program. We had four homestays. We learned Xhosa through an intensive language study. I found myself in environments that were completely foreign to me and absolutely loved it. I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do after undergrad, but I knew I wanted to sort of replicate that experience in some way. Joseph: Now, you posted on LinkedIn last month, which reminded me of you and the work that you’re doing, that you said that one of your top priorities when you were graduating from Penn was to get a job overseas. Why was that so important to you? Maura: [06:40] It all started with that experience studying abroad. I can’t sort of thank the people that were involved in that enough. I grew up in South Jersey. I went to school 20 minutes from home, and very supportive family, and really wonderful environments. I wanted to experience a diverse setting, an environment that was different from that in which I grew up. I was able to do that in my undergrad studies. Wanted to do that again when I graduated. And so, I applied for programs and jobs that were in really kind of remote places. Places you wouldn’t think of necessarily. Joseph: Could you give a sampling of a few of the places you were thinking about going to? Maura: [07:25] Mexico was probably the closest place. I was looking at Peru. I was looking at Vietnam. My two job offers — actually, I only had two in the end. It came down to teaching in Ulan Bator in Mongolia and becoming an HR recruiter in Doha, Qatar. And so, that’s how I ended up in Doha. Joseph: How did you make the decision to go to Qatar over Mongolia? What was the main motivation there? If you can think back that far. I know this is a while back. Maura: [07:56] For me, it came down to the job description itself. It came down to the role that I was doing. I was looking not just for what that was going to be in the moment, but something that would put me in a position that I could sort of leverage that into something, at a later time, that was more a longer trajectory that I was interested in pursuing professionally. So, it was teaching English in Ulan Bator. Very exciting, huge geographic area. I mean there’s so much to do in Mongolia. Doha, Qatar itself, I should say is much smaller. I was moving at the time into an HR role, which I think for myself and my interest gave me kind of a bigger platform that I could then use to springboard into something else in the future. Joseph: Now, I’ve never been to Qatar myself, Maura. I know it’s been in the news a lot lately with the World Cup. I have hosted a webinar for some execs out there. But I don’t know what life is like there on the ground. Could you give me a glimpse into what daily life was like for you there, as someone in her early 20s who had just moved there from the United States? Maura: [09:04] Well, the country itself is only about 2 or 3% Qatari. Not sure exactly the latest numbers, but it’s 98 to 97%, at the time at least when I was there, foreign nationals. There are people from all over the world that go to Doha to work. I was moving into a position working for a construction management firm. We had staff from all over the Middle East, from Australia, from Malaysia, from Canada, from the United States, from the U.K., from Ireland. I mean, all over the world. For in terms of the people that were based in the office, which I was, that was a smaller percentage of staff. Because most of our employees were actually out on construction sites and project sites. So, for those who are in the office every day, I was, myself, the youngest by at least 10 years. I was the only woman who wasn’t a secretary in a secretarial position. I was the only White person. I was the only native English speaker. And, I was the newest person to arrive to the office. Everyone else had been there for at least a few months. It was an incredibly intense, intimidating environment. The people there were very kind, very nice, for the most part. But it was a lot it was a huge transition. On a personal level, I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Doha. I’d gotten the job in the U.S., and was on a plane within two weeks of my job interview. I [knew] a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, had one tenuous connection over Facebook that ended up kind of connecting me into a whole social network that I became friends with. But when I first landed, and for a few weeks, I was completely on my own. So, it was very intense. Joseph: We are, coincidentally, we didn’t plan it this way. But we’re recording this on International Women’s Day. Maura: [11:03] That’s true. Joseph: You mentioned that you were the only female in the office who was in a non-secretarial role, one of the youngest, clearly someone who was an outlier and a minority in so many ways, age, race. What was that like for you in the office on a day-to-day basis? Did you think about it? Did it manifest in any way? Did it affect you? If so, how? Maura: [11:25] It did certainly manifest. There are also cultural differences, which I came across, I mean continuously throughout my time there. I think the biggest thing that I had to figure out in that setting was, how do I find my voice? I would say find my feet, but it really became, how do I find my voice? As a woman who came from a family and a culture of strong women, that supports women, wants women to flourish and do well. Not everyone that I was with in that environment shared that sentiment. I, myself, experienced harassment, and inappropriate comments, and managers who didn’t want to support women or kind of thought women had a place that was different than the office, and told me as much. Told me that I would have a ceiling that was very low because I would have to have children someday, and that wasn’t very far off. Not only did I have to find my voice and stand up for myself, I also found that as I did that, other women both in the office and out on the project sites, came to me for support in dealing with the kind of situations that they were facing themselves. I became an advocate for them as well. To the extent where I ended up moving to the Dubai office. I actually ended up putting together an anti-harassment training, which I delivered across the region to other regional offices across the UAE, Qatar, and also Bahrain. That became a key part of the work that I created for myself in that role, and what I wanted to kind of leave behind. Joseph: Very interesting. Sometimes, I think about this, Maura. Because this is 2023, and you kind of hoped that we’ve made some progress in terms of gender equality and women being able to have the same opportunities in the workplace. Again, I’m making some broad generalizations here, but I’m assuming that they’re in a more patriarchal environment. That no matter what you do, it’s kind of hard to get ahead. Would you say that’s a fair characterization or not? Maura: [13:37] I don’t disagree. I would certainly say that women are seen very differently in patriarchal societies through the lens of those who hold on to that view because it’s not just a society as a whole. We all know people who see life in that through that lens, and women are seen differently. It manifests and kind of shows up in the way that they’re spoken to and the expectations that are put on them. Opportunities are not seen to be connected to women in the same way as they are with men. It was a very bizarre experience to have that in 2008 to 2010, not that long ago. I found myself at the age of 22, educating middle-aged men as to the art of what’s possible for women because I grew up with very strong female role models, including my mother who worked and raised four children. And, these men telling me, “Well, enjoy it while it lasts because in a not too distant future, you’re going to have to get married and have kids. And then, your career will be over,” was not my story. I found it important that they knew that, and that they understood that expectations for women don’t have to be different than they do for men certainly. Joseph: I just got back from Pakistan just last week. I was out there for a few days hosting some workshops and I did have a conversation with a woman out there who was talking to me about the gender dynamics there. Again, broadly generalizing a slightly more patriarchal society, just the challenges that still exist right now and it’s hard to navigate it. As someone myself, who is American, when I go into a different culture, sometimes I struggle with how much to voice my views on how things could be versus just the way that it’s been accepted in whatever society I’m in. I struggle with that sometimes. How did you manage that? Like balancing your opinions versus the societal norms in a very different part of the world. Maura: [15:45] I think what I did was not try to project. The big exception being a straight-up harassment case because I did deal with those. That’s, of course, inappropriate. My opinion is that that’s inappropriate in any culture and regardless of gender. But with that being the exception, I mean I tried to explain to people what my views were for myself. Rather than say, “Hey, your expectations for yourself as a woman in this culture are lower than they should be.” Or, “Your expectations for your wife are lower than they should be.” It wasn’t a judgment about others. It was just to say, “Look. This is what I expect for myself, and I know I can do it because I’ve seen other people do it.” So, trying to kind of raise that ceiling through the stories about myself and my own narrative rather than judging others. Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about your transition. I know this is just one of the many that we’re going to cover today. So, you’re working in this firm in Qatar, and you’re working in HR. What triggered you to move to London after that? Can you remember what your motivation was in making that move? Maura: [17:10] I can. I’m married to him now. Joseph: That is often the reason why people make international moves. Maura: [17:18] That was very professional and sort of personal driven by me. I ended up, as I said, I didn’t know anyone when I got there. I ended up meeting this great group of people. One of whom I started dating. He got into a Master’s Program in London and said, “Do you want to come with me?” I said, “Sure. I’ll go. I speak English,” which was a big mistake because the English language in the U.K. is very different from American English. I managed to get a Visa for myself, a work Visa, while I was still in Dubai. And then, I moved from there to the U.K. with my work Visa, but with no job. Joseph: I see. This was 2010. Is that right? Maura: [17:54] Yes. Joseph: But I guess the Visa restrictions were not quite as well restrictive at the time. Maura: [17:59] When you’re applying for a job in another country — and I think this is true in most countries. You either need your own Visa, which has a work status, or you need to be sponsored by an organization. Being able to get that U.K. work Visa in Dubai meant that I was applying for jobs in London with the Visa. So, I didn’t need the company sponsorship, which just helped to be honest. Joseph: Can you remember how it felt when you landed in London back in a predominantly English-speaking country? That is, I guess, at least for all intents and purposes, as different as it can get from a place like Dubai, or Qatar, or Doha. Maura: [18:40] I still say this: it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I thought moving to London would be easy for all the reasons that you would assume. It’s incredibly bureaucratic. I wasn’t at the time a British national. We luckily had a family connection, and so we’re able to kind of get an address. Even just getting a cell phone, which you need to apply for jobs because they need to be able to call you, was really actually very challenging. Joseph: Yeah. It is tricky. Maura: [19:12] As much as there wasn’t a language barrier, it was much more bureaucratic, which I found challenging. Joseph: So, you do land in London, you do finally manage to get a mobile phone, and a bank account and those kinds of things you need to get your life started there. Maura: [19:24] Exactly. Joseph: You move to ERM, environmental resources management, and are still working in HR. Could you explain what your trajectory was there? And then, ultimately, what triggered you to then decide to pursue your MBA? Maura: [19:40] So, the challenge in working in HR, and then moving to a different country, is that there’s an expectation when you’re working with personnel that you understand employment law, which I didn’t and still really don’t in the U.K. However, ERM had this great position open which was in the international HR team. So, in their global HR team. Where I was able to work on more strategy-related projects, and I fell into learning and development, which I loved. Always on a global scale, supporting the staff around the world. That worked out really well that I was still applying my HR skill set, and the work that I’d done previously, but on a global scale. I was able to sort of overcome the lack of local employment law issue in that way. As I kind of really got into that work more, I identified that my area of interest was, is/was, the overlap between business and culture. Obviously, I had a degree in culture anthropology. I’ve lived and worked in, at the time it was five, now, it’s almost 10 countries. I had done the HR work, kind of working with people across different cultures. On the business side, I’d worked for these international organizations. But I felt that I wanted to really bolster my business acumen to more to really round out that side of things. That’s where the MBA came in. To give me kind of a stronger business skill set, that business knowledge, if you will. Joseph: This was an MBA at the Cambridge Judge Business School, which is where you and I first crossed paths. Maura: [21:11] Yes. Joseph: It must have been early 2015, or something like that. Maura: [21:16] Yeah, that’s right. Joseph: I guess eight years ago. During that time, you made another shift, and this is oftentimes, the motivation in pursuing an MBA is to make a bit of a pivot. Now, in this case, you made a pivot into the management consulting world, which is not an easy pivot to make. It’s a very esteemed sector. Can you explain how you managed to go from working in HR and learning and development, and then landing a pretty high-profile management consulting role at Deutsche Bank in financial services? Maura: [21:50] I really wanted to round out my professional experience and expertise. I did use the MBA as a pivot opportunity, exactly as you said, and was able to find through one of the recruitment events that business schools often host. A management consulting group that was actually internal to the organization — so Deutsche Bank has an internal management consulting arm, which is a very German model. There are a number of companies that do this. They have a slightly different mindset and approach to the more externally facing management consultancies. I ended up connecting with this group that was really open to people of diverse backgrounds and experiences and saw the value in getting people’s kind of perspectives that weren’t strictly from financial services. I think that’s key to any transition, is kind of being able to find people that are attracted to diversity and attracted to maybe a different skill set and see the benefit of that in the work that they’re doing. And so, GMC group management consulting did that. I found a home there and a team that was really wonderful, and I had an incredible experience there. Joseph: How would you describe the major differences between working and consulting, versus your prior roles? Maura: [23:06] Working in consulting was a painfully steep learning curve, I have to say. I moved from talking with people around the world and developing training that I delivered over webinars to staff across different countries, to sitting in an office for 10 hours a day with no windows in front of a laptop, crunching client data. Using Excel skills that were way beyond my capabilities at the time, and was completely thrown in the deep end. Very high pressure, very high profile, hyperintense, and just completely different with a life that revolved around Excel and PowerPoint. More than kind of the people connection, which I was so used to in the past. Part of my job in the Gulf was driving around the different construction sites, or even flying out to different offices and different countries, and meeting with people and hearing about their issues. My first 10 months at Deutsche Bank, I was sitting as I said in a windowless room in front of Excel with four other consultants. That’s kind of where we were, which is when you think of consulting, that’s often what you think of. Not all of my projects were like that, but it was a complete 180. Joseph: I’m going to read between the lines here a little bit, and correct me if I’m wrong with it. It sounds like you were perhaps more in your natural element in the HR world perhaps because it was your first set of roles, and perhaps because you’d always had an interest in the human side of things. And then, you go into this role, which is very different. As you mentioned, focused around PowerPoint and Excel. How do you reconcile this situation? Where sometimes, you’re in a role where you’re learning a lot, but maybe you don’t feel like it is quite you. How did you think about how long to continue doing that? Because sometimes, what happens is people go into these roles and they do it because they want to learn something, or they want to “do their time.” Especially in consulting. How did you think about how long to stay in that world? Or was that even part of your thought process at the time? Maura: [25:22] It absolutely was. Part of my frustration with HR was people see it as really soft. Or sort of out of touch with the operations or the business side of things, which is why I wanted to kind of connect in that business and culture, those two pieces together, and therefore, I needed more of that business side. I sort of jumped in the deep end in that sense and kind of went to a place that was much, much more focused on the business than the people at least in so many ways, and I anticipated that. And so, I went into a thinking, “This is not forever.” On those really long, really painful days, I thought, “This isn’t forever, right?” I sort of thought that three years seems to be this kind of magic number that I hold in my head when I make transitions. “If I could do this for three years, that’s fine.” Sometimes, it’s two, and sometimes, it’s five. But I sort of hold three years as some type of number for me, which feels manageable and comfortable because it’s a commitment, but it’s not a life sentence. Whatever that number is for others, even if again it doesn’t work out that way. But just to kind of go into something thinking, “Okay. Well, what am I comfortable with? What can I commit to? So, that I’m fully present to what I’m doing and able to really kind of make the most of this time, but I’m not also overwhelmed by, ‘Oh my gosh! I’m stuck here.'” That’s how I looked at it. I ended up staying at Deutsche Bank for almost five years. It did work out quite well for me. Joseph: You would eventually move back to the U.S., which is where you’re now based. How did you come to that decision to move back to the U.S. after going on this incredible journey through the Gulf region, and then to Europe? What triggered you to make that move? Maura: [27:16] While I was at Deutsche Bank, we had two children, our two boys, and had outgrown our flat in London and needed to make a decision of, “Okay. We need to move out. Do we move out to a bigger place in the U.K., or do we move to the U.S.?” For family reasons, for personal reasons, we decided to move to the U.S. I struggled sometimes to say, “Is it back to the U.S. or just to the U.S.?” Because our professional lives, I made my entire professional life, at that point, had been overseas. So, we made the decision to come back here, as I said, just outside of Washington, D.C., which is a very international place which gives me a lot of solace and joy. We have neighbors and friends from all over the world, and also who have a lot of global experience which kind of eased that transition a bit. Joseph: I’ve always wondered about what it’s like to go — I know you said you’d never worked in the U.S. So it was moving to the U.S. At the same time, you’d spent your whole childhood and college years in the United States. What’s it been like for you? Because this was in 2020, right? So you’re coming up to, I guess, three years back in the U.S. Is that correct? Maura: [28:31] Yeah. We moved in late 2019. It was actually six months before COVID lockdown, which is a weird time to transition to a new place. Joseph: I’ll bet. Maura: [28:40] I found that people assumed that we were from here. I mean, we are from here. I’m from New Jersey. But people ask you, “Where are you from?” And you say, “New Jersey,” and they say, “Okay.” Then, they’ve kind of fill in the blanks and assume that that’s been your life, and they don’t understand. They don’t know that I identify as from New Jersey, and so much more than that. It was confusing coming back here and talking with my sister about Roth IRAs, and things like that that my younger sister had more experience with this than I did. Getting frustrated with utilities, and things in my neighbor saying, “What do you mean you don’t understand how it works here?” There are sort of assumptions that because I sound like I do and I look like I do, is that I understood how things work here and I have that lived experience. But, actually, I didn’t necessarily have that lived experience of working professionally in the United States. That’s been a very odd transition, and it’s very easy for us to compare life here to life elsewhere. Primarily, in the U.K. The D.C. area is a great place to be, and we’re enjoying that as well. It’s wonderful to be closer to family. That’s been wonderful. Joseph: So, you go back to the United States, and then you shift into what I’m going to describe — I’m going to put a label on this, but into more of the “mission-driven world.” Oftentimes, when I speak with people who have spent time working in the for-profit corporate world, as you had up until this point, I know that people can sometimes be drawn to more mission-driven organizations. I’m curious what your motivation was in shifting into a more mission-driven world? Then, we can talk a little bit about the realities of that world. Maura: [30:30] While I was at Deutsche Bank, there were a number of corruptions and scandals that were uncovered in the press. As I said, the management consulting group that I was part of was wonderful. The organization, as a whole, was not a place that I was always proud to say I worked when people ask. And so, that’s when I was then leaving, I wanted to find a place and land somewhere where I was really proud to say that I worked there. The D.C. area has a lot of international organizations, international [not-for]-profits. I had the benefit of looking around and saying, “Okay. Well, what are the organizations that I would be proud to work for?” And so, as you say that mission-driven component was very much important to me and a key part of what I was looking for in that next step. Joseph: What were your perceptions of working in the more mission-driven world, and then what was the reality that you experienced? Maura: [31:23] I thought it would be everyone sort of gung-ho supporting a cause that we all believed in. I ended up at the International Baccalaureate. The global component of my work up to that point was still part of the work that I was doing as the head of global employee experience. I loved the work. It very much was gung-ho. We’re all supporting this cause: creating education to make a more peaceful world. I mean, what a mission! The people that truly are passionate about it. That was a wonderful place to be. There’s the flip side to it. People that are so passionate and so mission-driven expect a lot of themselves. One thing that I learned is that there’s a lot of burnouts that happen in mission-driven organizations. Not that there isn’t elsewhere, but certainly more than I expected. I thought, “Well, I’ll be leaving behind these crazy hours at Deutsche Bank,” and that wasn’t the case. I found in the mission-driven, not-for-profit world, people are very much working their tails off and some people are really burning out. In part, because they are so passionate. I was not expecting that. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to discuss with you before we wrap up by talking about your recent shift into the corporate world are some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your interesting career journey. Something you said in your LinkedIn post was that, “Our greatest learning often happens outside our comfort zone where we’re forced to grapple with the uncomfortable, the challenging, and the uncertain.” What’s something that you learned by working in those environments where you were a complete outlier? Maura: [33:10] I would say the key thing is being really aware of yourself, who you are, what you need, and being able to advocate for yourself is critical. That’s where I think became grounded in who I was out of necessity. That’s made a huge difference then in being able to kind of make other pivots because I know where I’m centered from. I know where I’m sort of moving from at my core. Joseph: Speaking of which, what is something that you wished you had known about making major career changes and making major geographical moves that you now know? Maura: [34:09] I wish I had known that I would be able to tell a convincing story that people would actually be attracted to that. So often, I was told that there should be some kind of worry or concern, a fear of making a change, or reasons, focus on the reasons to not do it. What I found was I was always able to find opportunities where that was an advantage. I wish that I had known that that was going to be the case. To not kind of move from a place of worry, but actually to move from a place of opportunity. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know that you’ve recently made the move into the coaching world. Can you explain what that has been like for you to move from working as a full-time employee to starting your own coaching practice? Maura: [35:05] For myself, to be able to explain that, and for other people to kind of follow, those shifts is to have sort of a common thread throughout that. For me, the connection throughout all the changes I’ve made is that I am motivated by the ability to empower others in their work. That’s what gets me out of bed. What I’ve done most recently is I’ve moved from empowering others in their work from a kind of organizational level, working in employee experience at a global organization, to empowering others in their work on a one-to-one level as an executive leadership coach. What I’m finding is that the frustrations that I’ve had with organizations in the past, that change is too slow. It takes too much time for organizations to really make meaningful transitions, et cetera. That is all wiped away when you’re working one-to-one with individuals. There’s change happening you know within 45 minutes, within a single call. Let alone over six months or so. It’s been incredibly exciting, energizing, gratifying, and humbling to be witness to that change and to be part of people’s journeys as they’re figuring out where they want to show up, and how they want to show up and to support them as they grow and transform. Joseph: What have you found challenging about this specific transition? Maura: [36:31] It can be a bit lonely. I’m a very collaborative person. I love working with teams. Being a one-to-one exec leadership coach is a bit lonely. I’m starting to expand that and work with teams and do more consulting work, which is great. That’s been kind of the biggest challenge so far. Joseph: When we were prepping for this call, I remember you mentioning something about this concept of a metamorphosis related to a caterpillar going to a butterfly. You mentioned this concept of “bug soup.” Could you just remind me, what’s that all about, and how has that related to your journey, into coaching? Maura: [37:09] I started this transition back in August, September last year, which is around the same time in the northeast of the United States when Monarch butterfly caterpillars go into their chrysalis. We happened to have a caterpillar and we’re doing this with my kids as an activity. We’re doing a lot of research into what’s happening, so we can explain to them. I learned at that time that actually when a chrysalis is formed, if you were to open it up prematurely, in the middle of the metamorphosis, it’s actually a green goo that you’d find inside. What happens is the caterpillar breaks down all of its — okay, I’m not a scientist, that’s my disclaimer. It breaks down kind of all of its softer parts, into this bug soup, and then, it reconstructs into the butterfly. And then, when it’s ready, it opens and we know what happens after that. And so, I was really struck as I was going through this process of establishing my own coaching practice by also learning about this concept of bug soup. I thought, “Well, that’s what’s happening to me.” I’m in the middle of this bug soup, where I sort of feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m stepping out on my own, and I’m moving from the comfort and security of a pay check in an organization and a team to being completely on my own and building a business. I’m bug soup. I think the lesson there for me is that kind of acknowledging that it was — as I had an MBA professor said, the messy middle, that that’s okay. That’s part of the process. And, sort of trusting that I’ll come out on the other side in some form or another. Hopefully, a good one that can fly. But that was comforting for me at the time to kind of know that even animals go through, our bugs, go through this and I wasn’t so different in that sense. Joseph: Speaking of this metamorphosis, the final question for you, Maura. What’s something you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve made this shift from the corporate world into starting your independent executive coaching practice? Maura: [39:15] A key lesson for me has been, and continues to be, that I can and do every day author my own story. It’s something that I talk with my coaching clients about in terms of what’s your story and the power of stories. So often, we tell ourselves certain things, we tell ourselves stories. There’s a narrative in our heads, and that is so powerful in terms of shaping who we are and how we show up. We’re talking about career transitions. Everyone has the power to author their own story. I talked to my coaching clients about this. The power of stories that we tell ourselves, the narratives in our heads, we all have it. The stories that we create, that we narrate, both looking back in terms of what we want to glean from where we’ve come from and also looking forward, in terms of where we want to go and how we’re going to get there are instrumental in shaping us as personal, as individuals and as professionals. I think there are kind of three key things in terms of making those transitions successful. The self-awareness and reflection to actually consider what are your skills, what are the gaps, what do you desire, and what’s the rationale for that. There’s a need to understand what others need. Whether it’s an individual or a system. How can you fit into their needs? How can you kind of bring, as I sort of mentioned as an example, the human side to the consulting work? How is that going to benefit that organization, as an example? And then, the third is to be able to tell a convincing and authentic story. If you can do those three things, that’s it. That’s the magic. Everyone can do that. I truly believe it. Everyone has the ability to do this. Joseph: Well, if people are interested in learning more about what you do, or if they need some help with figuring out the human side of their own career story and crafting their own narrative, where can people go to learn more about you or the coaching work that you do? Maura: [41:21] LinkedIn. I’m Maura Connell Lightfoot. My organization is MCL Coaching and Consulting. Anyone can find me on LinkedIn, or at mclcoaching.org. Joseph: Thank you so much, Maura, for reconnecting. It’s nice to speak with you again after all these years, and telling us more about your life and the Gulf, your various InterContinental moves, how you’ve overcome the challenges along the way, and also some of your own reflections as you have continued to evolve your own career. So, best of luck with your executive coaching endeavors, authoring this chapter of your own career story and also empowering others to do the same in their professional lives. Thanks for coming on to the show. Maura: [42:02] Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s been my pleasure. I appreciate it.

Moving abroad for a job can be tough emotionally and practically. Leaving familiar surroundings and loved ones can lead to homesickness and isolation. Adapting to a new work environment, language, and way of life adds to the pressure. However, it can also be a broadening and enriching experience that expands your world in unexpected ways. Stefania Tosini, a press officer turned talent acquisition specialist is going to talk about what she wrestled with when making her decision to move from Italy to Germany during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In episode 93 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the struggles I had when I moved from the US to the UK  during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Leaving one’s family behind to pursue a career can be a difficult decision to make. It can bring up a variety of emotions, ranging from fear and anxiety about leaving a loving environment to excitement for new opportunities and experiences to come. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Everyone needs support from time to time. Expectations can be a tricky thing, especially when it comes to your career decisions. Don’t assume that everyone will react to your choices in the way you hope. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about moving locations for your career. My challenge to you is to look forward instead of backward. To trust that you made the best decision you possibly could to serve what you felt was most important to you. Focus on doing everything you can to make the most of your current circumstances rather than dwelling TOO much on what you left behind. Start small and decide on one action you can take right now to more fully embrace your chosen path. About Stefania Tosini, Talent Acquisition Partner at Zalando Stefania Tosini is a polyglot with a background in international affairs and economics who recently made a big move of her own from Italy to Germany. With over 8 years of experience across multiple industries including roles in education as an English Teacher for the Japanese School of Milan, luxury fashion as a press officer for companies like Dolce & Gabbana, and now in online retail as a talent acquisition partner for Zalando, she finds her professional motivation in helping people find fulfillment and belonging in their careers. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimize, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Floating Podington Bear – Program Reverie Podington Bear – Pulsars Podington Bear – Golden Hour REW – Hylidae Podington Bear – Holding Hands Podington Bear – Stuck Dream Podington Bear – Memory Wind Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Stefania. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming today. Stefania: [03:34] Hi. Thank you so much for the invite. Joseph: Why don’t we get started by getting a snapshot of what is keeping you busy right now in both your career and life? Can you give me a glimpse into what you’ve been focused on recently? Stefania: [03:01] First of all, Joseph, thank you for having me as your guest. In my personal life, I’d say that I’m focusing on my family and friends at the moment, especially after moving abroad to Germany. I really realized that family to me is the most important source of energy for myself. To give you some context, I’m from Italy and I think it’s absolutely true what people say about Italians. I match all the stereotypes here. I speak with my hands, and I love good food, and I’m a family person. Definitely, family is one of my main focus points. Joseph: What about your career? What have you been focused on at work recently? Stefania: [04:40] From a professional point of view, I switched careers and industries a couple of times already. Now, I’m focusing on growing my expertise, in recruiting. I’m working in talented acquisition. Therefore, it’s like really learning all the time and bringing your niche expertise to certain families and sectors. It’s really about growing and keeping on learning. Joseph: Now, you are currently at a company called Zalando. For those people who are not familiar with Zalando, can you just give a very quick snapshot of exactly what Zalando is and what you guys do? Stefania: [05:23] Zalando is awesome. It’s my employer and it’s an eCommerce platform, basically serving countries in Europe. We sell sportswear, beauty products, fashion products. To me, it’s a very highly advanced tech company. The sector is retail, fashion, and tech at the moment. I am a talent acquisition partner working in recruiting and I just love my job. I love my job because I’m working with people and for people. I do believe that the most important asset of a company is human capital. Joseph: Before we go back in time, Stefania, I also know you’re a bit of a polyglot. Can you remind me which languages you speak and how you ended up picking up those languages? Stefania: [06:17] Yes, I’m a polyglot. I love studying languages. I’m Italian. Of course, I’m a native speaker in Italian. I speak pretty well Spanish and Russian as well. I’m currently studying German and Japanese, too. Japanese has a longer story behind this. I think my passion for languages started when I was young. I wanted to connect with people faster. I remember that once I was traveling with my grandpas to the UK, and I was really, really young. I think I was 6 or 7 years old. I really wanted to connect with people. I wanted to express myself, and the only way to do so was getting confident with the language. That was the moment I realized I want to study languages. I just want to speak with other cultures, understand more from other cultures, connect with them. Perhaps it’s because I come from the country of human relationships, and this turn my interest in learning languages. Joseph: That’s amazing when I heard that. As you know, I’m originally from the United States. I come here to Europe and I suddenly realize that everybody speaks at least two languages, sometimes three. In your case, four or five. How did you pick up so many languages? Stefania: [07:57] Of course, the more you travel, the more you have the chance to get in contact with other cultures, other traditions. I became curious. Curiosity was the driving factor for myself. Overall, I was really passionate about literature. I loved Spanish literature, Russian literature. I was driven by that. I was resilient. I wanted to read books in the language they were written. To me, that was like a goal. How do I get to this goal? To me, it was just like, “Yeah, let’s go into grammar. Let’s study grammar. Let’s try to speak then with the locals.” Everything that’s related to culture, traditions, it was really moving something inside my soul. Joseph: That’s incredible. I would love to dive into this a little bit more because I know, just to switch gears here, if we go back in your history, you spent some time as an English teacher at a Japanese school in Milan. Before we talk about that, can you just tell me about your childhood? What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you think your work life and your adult life was going to look when you were a kid? Stefania: [09:17] My biggest dream was actually to become an actress. I totally had a different path. Totally unexpected compared to what I’m doing now. Overall, I think my skills were related to communication and connecting with people, and I was a happy child overall. Smiling and I wanted to also make a difference in people’s lives. Perhaps also sharing the knowledge that I had, and also trying to learn from others. That’s why perhaps I ended up becoming a teacher. As a teacher, you teach, of course, but you get a lot from others, like from your students, from the people you’re working with. I think that teachers make a difference, a really big difference in your life. I must say that I was really, really lucky to have such great examples of teachers in my life. They really inspired me. They really pushed me in becoming a better person, a better student. I’m also very conscious about the fact I could study. Now, education is a big topic and still in 2023, a lot of countries don’t have access to education. I was lucky enough to have this in my life. From the moment I understood I have access to education and I have access to great education, what can I grasp from this? How can I have an impact based on all the things that I’ve been in contact with, the people that have been in contact with? That, to me, was the moment that gave me confidence in moving forward in my career and in sharing what I was learning as well. Joseph: What triggered you to start thinking about doing something else? It sounds like the teaching was going well, you’re having a positive impact on students. Was there something in particular that got you thinking, “Hey, I might want to try doing something different”? Stefania: [11:28] I wanted to be in a new environment because, again, I am a very curious person. I know that I’m energized when I do something different all the time. To me, stability is important. But, at the same time, I really need to do something new and refresh. This opportunity came unexpected, to be honest. I was conducted back then by a head hunter because they saw that I had expertise in communication, that I was speaking several languages, and they were looking for someone who knew pretty well English, and Spanish, and Russian as well. They contacted me for a position in the press office in a fashion and luxury company, Dolce Gabbana based in Milan. I thought that’s the time to make this change and accept this change. I think I had nothing to lose back then. I gave everything to my job in the school but I also knew that it was time to try something new. Joseph: You go from being in an academic environment at a Japanese school to one of the world’s most well-known fashion brands, Dolce and Gabbana. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like to work there, and what exactly were you doing as a press office specialist? Stefania: [12:57] I was thrilled. I also started questioning myself like, “Why me?” It was an amazing experience. Working in the press office meant taking care of marketers and influencers, taking care of the credits where, of course, the company was mentioned in magazines and newspapers. Of course, online reports, online news. It was really exciting and you felt like being part of this magic world of fashion and luxury. Let’s say there in Milan, it’s really relevant, the sector. I felt thrilled. It was awesome. I loved my daily routine. I love translating press reviews. You really represented the brand. Joseph: I’m just speculating, and also wondering. Is working for like a big fashion brand like that, is it as glamorous as it may seem from the outside? I guess I’m imagining a bunch of people who are super well-dressed, very fast-paced, very modern, very current, exciting dynamic environment. What were your expectations of what life would be like there and what was your life actually like there? Stefania: [14:08] Absolutely, a nice environment. I must say very competitive. What we may see in movies, such as “The Devil Wears Prada.” Joseph: That’s exactly what I was thinking about. Stefania: [14:21] It’s absolutely true. There is a lot of competition. There is a lot of props, like pressure on what you do, and how you do that, and how you look, which is great. Don’t get me wrong. If this is what you want, you find exactly what you are looking for. But for myself, I had to be true to myself. I love the job. I loved my daily tasks. I also loved my colleagues and environment per se. But it became toxic for my personality because I tend to be a very competitive person. I tend to perfectionism like I want everything to be perfect. Back then, I didn’t have the tool to stop myself from being this way. It couldn’t last that long based on how I am. Joseph: I see. It’s sort of this combination of wanting to be perfect, and also being in a very intense competitive environment. It sounds like that just was not sustainable over time? Stefania: [15:26] If you, of course, have other priorities in your life and you want to focus on different things, perhaps it wasn’t really the best path for myself. Joseph: How did you go about figuring out what you wanted to do next once you realized that, “Hey, this environment may not be where I want to remain, long term”? What did you do to gain some clarity on what your next chapter might look like? Stefania: [15:53] There wasn’t a list of things that I was thinking about. I didn’t prepare any documents, like pros and cons. Of course, most of the current, let’s say mentorship or coaching programs propose, which I think do add a lot of value. But back then, I didn’t have those tools. I was connected with some friends, so networking here really played a super important role. They told me, “You know, we’re looking for someone that is going to work in this business school in Milan. It’s a lot about employee relations and events, like connecting also students with job opportunities. Of course, in this role, it’s fundamental. You can speak English and perhaps speak also other languages. Because students are coming from all over the world. Do you want me to connect you to the head of the employee of relations and career services?” I thought, “Yes,” like immediately. I didn’t really think about that twice. I have, of course, my interview process and everything went super well. And then, I started my new job in a new industry, and of course, with a new magic team. Joseph: This is, if I’ve got my timeline correct here, you were at Dolce and Gabbana for about a year. And then, in 2017, that is when you went to the SDA Bocconi School of Management in Milan, which is where you and I actually first cross paths. When I think we last saw each other face to face, which was in 2019. You were the career development and employer relations manager for the school. Can you explain what it was like to then go from Dolce and Gabbana back into more of an academic environment? This time, at a school of management but still in Milan. What was the transition like for you? Stefania: [17:48] It was a quite smooth transition at the beginning. Also because I always say that once you change a job, what matters the most is how your team is welcoming you, how they’re going to support you. They helped me in this transition. They’ve mentored me. Bocconi was a very, very challenging environment. Perhaps there is this understanding of academic environments as more relaxed, or perhaps laid back. But, in this case, Bocconi was challenging. We had a lot of events. We were responsible for creating training programs for our MBA students and students that were coming from again all over the world, and they had high expectations. You’re asking a lot from yourself. You want to give the best. This environment put me in contact with a lot of great professionals, with a lot of ambitious people. I gave a lot to this business school. But I also think it gave me a lot as well. Joseph: It is a really great environment there I have to say, Stefania. I’ve worked with, as you know I work with a lot of different business schools, and SDA Bocconi is just one of them. I do find the students there to be warm, and very diverse, and very friendly. At the same time, very demanding and also very achievement-oriented. And so, it’s an interesting combination. Now, I remember having coffee with you across the street from Bocconi in 2019. Now, this is late 2019, which is when I was there to host an in-person workshop. And then, the pandemic happened. Can you explain to me what the pandemic meant for you in your career? First of all, what happened with the work that you were doing? And what did you start thinking about at that time? Stefania: [19:45] Back then, I wanted to be challenged more. I wanted to experience something new. On top of this, my partner and I had a distance relationship, and we were ready to move to another country. Joseph: Where was he based at the time? Stefania: [20:01] He was based in Frankfurt, and then moved to Hamburg. I was based in Milan. We were looking for jobs all around the world. I ended up in Berlin. There were many things that actually contributed to this choice. Back then, when COVID hit, I was really scared, frankly speaking. On top of that, they usually say that you should not change more than two variables at a time. Basically, I changed the industry. I changed my role. I changed country, everything all together during a pandemic. Of course, I was scared. I was not fearless. I thought, “Did I really take the right choice? Will I be successful?” Because once you join a new company in Germany, you have six months’ probation period. Something that you’re not used to. I really had a lot of questions. I was questioning myself. I was questioning my decision. I was, of course, a threat about it. Unconsciously, perhaps you start putting all those fears that other people have as well. Because you may hear from other people, “Oh, you already have a safe job in Italy. Why are you moving? This is a full-time role. It’s a permanent role. You have security. You have stability. And now, for sure, there’s going to be a crisis. We don’t know what’s going to happen.” And then, I thought, “I know no one knows what is going to happen, with or without the pandemic.” I thought that there is like a certain amount of uncertainty that I can deal with to be happy with my life. The more I’m open to that, the happier I am. I really thought, “It’s time to move on. Let’s do this.” Joseph: Did you have a job lined up in Germany before you moved, or did you make this move before you had all that sorted out? Stefania: [22:20] I actually already received an offer. This all came before the pandemic started. I was in contact back then with an amazing recruiter working in Zalando. I was really worried, and I was contacting her every day. Like, “Is it really going to happen? Will everything be okay?” Because also all the airports were closed. I didn’t know. “Am I really going to be in that country? Will I be able to start?” It was really, really stressful. On top of that, I was leaving my family. It was not really like I’m going on holiday. It’s like, I’m going there. I don’t know, can I actually go back and visit them? I have a very close relationship with my grandpas. They were like my parents, and I was really worried about, “Can I see them again?” All those things worried me but also made me grow. Joseph: This is early 2020, when you made the move to Berlin. At the start of the pandemic, lots of uncertainty, lots of airport security. I actually remember at the time, Italy was in the news a lot with lockdowns and a lot of volatility in terms of the regulations. And so, you move over to Berlin. Can you just explain, like what was the toughest thing about making that move for you? Stefania: [23:36] Leaving my family. I think that’s still heartbreaking for me because to me, family community is super important, like my friends. I was really worried about what will happen next. I was worried for their health. I was worried for whatever could happen in the future. I was worried for things that I could not control. I also had friends stating they would never do this because they loved their family so much and they would never leave their family in such conditions. But at the same time, I had just left my job and I had another contract to start soon in Germany. Perhaps, again, I was unconsciously questioning myself, “Am I a bad person? Why did I take this decision?” And then, I think everything went smoothly when I took the time to step back, really ask myself, “Why did I take this decision?” Realizing that there is “no size fits all,” and take one step at a time. We shouldn’t rush into decisions, but at the same time, we shouldn’t let certain fears block us. I survived. Joseph:  Listening to your story, Stefania, I can’t help but find myself thinking about a choice I also made, which was sort of similar to yours. Where I left the Bay Area, where my mother and father only lived a couple hours away from there in California at the time. I moved over here to the UK, which is where I’m now based. I felt very conflicted about that. It was a really hard thing for me to reconcile. Even to this day, I still sometimes find myself thinking, “Ah, I moved so far away from them.” I guess what I struggle with is completely being at peace with the decision. I’m just wondering on a day-to-day basis; how do you manage that? Or maybe another way of asking it is, how do you know when the decision is right even though it involves some major compromises? Stefania: [26:04] If you wake up in the morning smiling, then, of course, you feel like that’s the right decision for you. When you face your fears, you just like they construct what is worrying you and why. You give those answers to yourself, you are already halfway. To me, facing fear, be resilient, and try to boost your confidence, bring in your passion every day for what you do. Of course, once you hear back from your family and from your friends and they tell you, “Oh, wow. It looks like you changed a lot. It looks like you’re super happy.” Like, you’re thrilled. Your eyes are shining. Then, you have those answers. Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here. I just want to talk briefly about Zalando before we even talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way. You’ve been at Zalando now for, roughly, three years. It seems like you’ve followed quite a rapid and very fast-paced acceleration in your career there. Can you let me know just how things have evolved for you at Zalando over the past three years? Stefania: [27:14] Absolutely. Zalando is a fast-paced environment. It’s super dynamic, and this is what I love the most about it. Working in headhunting or recruiting to me is also like no two days are the same in this field. You need to constantly innovate your strategy, your approach. You have to try new ways to catch the attention of your stakeholders and of your hard-to-find candidates as well. While you do this, you always learn new things and you become the recruiter in your niche. You become the expert. You become the to-go person. This excites me. Perhaps the most important aspect to me is when I offer candidates their dream job. You’re changing their lives. There is no better feeling, and this gives you the energy to keep up with the good work. Joseph: I can’t let you go, Stefania, without also asking you a couple recruitment questions. Because you are a talent acquisition partner for a very large organization, Zalando. I am just curious. How have you seen recruitment change over the past couple of years? You mentioned constantly having to innovate. Just wondering, since you’ve been involved in recruitment first on the careers team at a global business school, and now, at a global eCommerce fashion brand. Any major evolution you’ve noticed in the nature of recruitment? Stefania: [28:45] The market has changed a lot. There is a lot of competition. Actually, candidates want more. They want more from companies, want more from employers. They want flexibility. I think now, there is more attention towards health topics, and towards how do you want to spend your life. There is more attention to those details relating to your private life. Basically, as a recruiter, you have to be an expert on different job families. You need to understand what are the job families that we’re going to hire most for in the next quarter. Joseph: Since you focus on tech recruiting, Stefania, and you’re at a tech company, do you have any tips for someone interviewing for a role in tech? Where maybe they have limited direct experience or they don’t feel like they’re the most obvious candidate for the job on paper. I know I cross paths with candidates like this who are at business schools. The tech sector is always one that a lot of people are interested in getting into. But if you don’t come from the tech sector, any advice for someone who’s attempting to make that sort of a pivot into the industry? Stefania: [30:04] First of all, apply. There are a lot of candidates, like potential candidates, that feel like they don’t have the skills to do so and they just refrain themselves from applying. If you don’t try, you’ll never know. I push a lot of candidates to get back to recruiters like asking questions. Perhaps we have a first conversation and they don’t have questions for me, or they don’t ask for feedback, ask for feedback always, all the time. That’s the first and most important thing. On top of this, I think it’s super important to connect with people in your network, with people that have the experience that you would like to gain. It’s not about networking for the sake of doing that. It’s not just because you want to sell yourself. It’s good to connect, to create connections, to understand how certain industries work, to inform yourself about it. And then, you can also grasp a feeling, “Is there something for me? Is it something that I could consider?” I get a lot of knowledge around something that you want to do, about a role that you want to take. Connect with people. Ask for connections. Ask for a quick coffee chat, and try until you make it, that’s what I would say. I must say that it took me a long time before I landed my dream job. I really left Zalando as the very last company I could apply for because that was my dream company as well. I really got a lot of rejections. But going through all those rejections and those failures, I would say, I understood what I wanted. Joseph: Speaking of reflections, Stefania. The last thing I want to talk with you about before we wrap up are just some of your reflections on your very unique and interesting career journey. I’m wondering if you had to give advice to your younger self, as it relates to changing careers or even moving countries, what might that be? Stefania: [32:08] Be open. Listen to yourself, like trying to gather reflections also from the people that you meet. The most important thing that I reflected on is that you can do things alone, you can go through everything, but there is also no need to do things alone. It’s important that you learn to be vulnerable somehow. And then, you can ask for help. I just learned that having honest conversations with yourself is a priority. I understood that I’m just an adult in the ocean of knowledge. And when you work with such ambitious professionals, and especially with people that perhaps went through difficult situations and you hear certain stories, you start understanding what really counts in life, and that we all have the tools to make it happen if you really want it. Joseph: The other thing I was hoping you could talk about relates to your move. Because I know that you mentioned, it was a challenging decision to move away from Italy to Germany, and leave some friends and family behind. Now that you are in Germany, when you look back on this leap, is there something that you wish you had known about moving locations that you now know? Stefania: [33:41] You can’t expect everyone to see things as you do. I had my own opinions on my own ideas. I tended to think, “Okay, if I think this way, then it must be the same for everyone.” I wish I knew this before. I can’t expect everyone to react as I wished. I can’t expect everyone to be good to me. At the same time, I can’t be good to everyone. I can’t force myself also to be up to the expectations of others. I wish I knew I could let go of things and people faster. Because we all have different opinions and different paths in life and you have to accept that. I think that was one of the best learnings from a personal point of view. Joseph: I was listening to you say that. I guess I also sometimes fall on the trap of letting others’ opinions maybe sway me too much, or disproportionately affect me, especially with the major decisions. Because on those big decisions you’re making in your life, you do want to get a second opinion. Whenever you’re doing anything major. Whether it’s getting surgery done on your body or making a major move, it’s useful to get those second opinions. At the same time, everybody’s coming at it from a different standpoint. Everybody’s coming at it from a different set of experiences themselves, which may have nothing to do with your actual unique situation Stefania: [35:16] Correct. It’s like the same feeling that I had, and perhaps was the same feeling that was pushing me back from taking certain decisions. It’s because we have so many different opinions. We also have a lot of noise, and sometimes it’s not just to silence it and just reflect. Joseph: Last question for you, Stefania, then I got to let you go here. Having been through this career change, what is one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way? Stefania: [35:47] That I tend to be a people pleaser. Perhaps this is something that I have in common with so many other people I met within the last three years. I learned to protect myself and set boundaries. Because when you work with a lot of people, a lot of great professionals, and you perhaps meet a lot of people outside of work as well, and you are far away from the family, you are actually looking for a community and you want to build connections. To do so, you start behaving differently than how you really are. That’s what I learned about myself, “Oh, I’m really a people pleaser.” I didn’t know that that was the level that I was crossing. It was a little bit too much. Here is another example where I needed to step back and give myself time to understand. If I could like find this peace within myself as well and not really just have to have the rush to connect because I’m in a new country, because they need to find new friends or new people to connect with, or like that could happen at work as well, really showing that you’re present, that you’re there. That you want to be in the middle of everything, and that you want to perhaps overperform as well. Really being there, being present. I learned to protect myself from many, many circumstances. Learned how to set boundaries. I think this is another super important thing to learn in life, generally speaking. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Stefania, for telling us more about your life there in Germany, and as a talent acquisition partner, your former press office role in the fashion industry, and the pivots in your life. And very importantly, how you know that you’ve made the right decisions for your career and your life, independent of what other people think. It was nice to reconnect with you. I wish you the best of luck with your role there at Zalando, and I hope things continue to go well for you there in Germany. Finally, I hope we’re also going to have a chance to meet up again at some point in the future. Stefania: [38:09] Of course, Joseph.

Pursuing hobbies and interests outside of our daily work can be incredibly beneficial for our personal and professional growth. Hobbies can help us relax and reduce stress, increase creativity and productivity, and even open up new opportunities and networks. However, it can be difficult to make time for hobbies when we are busy with work, family, and other responsibilities. Jenny Goh, a former conference event planner turned IT firm manager discusses the unique role transitional jobs play in your career and how side activities outside of work can be so useful to pursue. In episode 92 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I’ll also share my thoughts about how hobbies have influenced my own life and career during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Admitting your own limitations and weaknesses can help you to re-evaluate your priorities and goals, and open up new opportunities for you to pursue something you might be more passionate about or better suited for. Having a hobby or passion project that you look forward to outside of work can help recharge your batteries and give you the energy and perspective you need to tackle the challenges at work. There will be a day when you aren’t working in your current job anymore. Learning from the successes and failures of others, as well as listening to the advice and guidance of mentors and peers, can help us navigate the professional world and make informed decisions about our own careers. If you feel you’ve learned and given all you can in your current role, you should consider seeking new opportunities to continue your personal and professional growth. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I invited you to pursue a new hobby this year. Perhaps an interest of yours that you’ve always thought about investing more energy into but just haven’t made the time for. Allow yourself the freedom to do something you think would be fun. This means regularly dedicating time to hobbies. Could you spare an hour on the weekends? Or even just 30 minutes one evening a week? Schedule this time into your calendar like you would with any other important task. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:03 – Chat with Jenny Goh 00:40:00 – Mental Fuel 00:48:00 – Listener Challenge 00:49:33 – Wrap Up About Jenny Goh, Product & Scrum Master Jenny Goh initially thought she would become a scientist, so she spent her university days studying biology and heading down a research path. But when she was working toward her graduate degree, she realized that a career in research wasn’t what she really wanted and maybe wasn’t her natural forte. So, she started soul searching and exploring things like event planning, and eventually landed roles working in IT for companies like IBM. Now, as a Project Manager and Scrum Master at Accenture, she’s hoping to use the skills and knowledge she’s gathered over the years to hopefully help and inspire others in their careers. Her hobby of learning ballet on the side at the Singapore Ballet has had a direct impact on her perspectives when she’s at work. So I wanted to get Jenny onto the show to not only explain her career transition but also to share her thoughts on the importance of feeding your interests outside of work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Fluorescence Podington Bear – Pulsars Uniq – Art of Silence Rand Aldo – Offline Ever so Blue – Dvala Podington Bear – Gears Spinning Episode Interview Transcript Joseph:  Okay. Hello, Jenny. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Jenny: [03:09] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me here. Joseph:  I am really happy that we are finally able to do this. You and I first cross paths on Medium actually, and I know we’ve been trying to record this for quite some time. What are you up to right now in your career in your life? What’s been keeping you busy? Jenny: [03:25] I’m currently working on a government project here as a scrum master. I’m a deputy project manager helping to manage the day-to-day progress of the project. Basically, running the project for the client. Making sure it meets their timeline and expectations. I’m busy with work, and I’m also busy with moving to a new place. These two activities have taken up the main bulk of my time. Joseph:  Now, you’re based in Singapore. Can you tell me a little bit about where you live there and what your neighborhood’s like? Just so we get a sense of where you are there in Singapore. Jenny: [04:03] I think most of our listeners probably know that Singapore is small. I live in what we call a township that’s called Serangoon. It’s a rather mature and old estate, but very developed. You can just stay here you don’t need to go out of this little township and you can get everything here. If you’ve been to Singapore, it’s not like an orchard or any downtown place. But it’s just a very neighborhood place that has everything. I like it here. It’s very crowded, but I like it because it’s very convenient. I live just five minutes away from the train station. I’ve been staying here for three years now, and I’m going to move next month. Joseph:  Where are you originally from, Jenny? I know you haven’t always lived in Singapore. Jenny: [04:57] I was born in Malaysia. I was raised there. And then, I moved to Singapore when I was 19. I have since then spent 20 years here. Joseph:  Final thing before we go back in time and talk about your first role as a computer engineer. I know one of the reasons why we haven’t been able to record this for some time is that you’ve been struggling a little bit with COVID. I was wondering if you could just tell me about what impact COVID has had on your life, both health-wise and also just personally. Jenny: [05:30] I just caught COVID about a month ago. Actually, around five weeks. I was one of those people who had really serious symptoms, right? Not just asymptomatic, you can just chill out at home, right? I had high fever for three days. I’m nursing a persistent cough. It’s been five weeks. People would say that’s almost a long COVID. I think that has had a significant impact in my life because I’ve been starting to think like, “Should I maybe consider seriously this work-life balance thing?” Not that I’ve never thought about it before, but that makes me even more conscious about my life because I’m struggling to get back to my physical activities because I’m quite active. But I have to cut my exercises by half. Joseph:  Thank you so much for doing this. I know you’re not fully recovered. I appreciate you squeezing this in as you’re trying to recover. I just hope you end up getting better soon. We’re going to come back to some of the importance of physical activity to you and your life toward the end when we talk about ballet. I was wondering if we could, first of all, just go back in time. I know you haven’t always been in your current project manager role. Could you take me back in time and tell me about what you think you wanted to become when you grew up and what you ended up doing as your first role when you finished up in university? Jenny: [06:56] When I was young, I went to maybe grade 7 or 8. At the time, you know when we started having internet, I thought it was cool. I thought I wanted to be a software engineer or computer engineer, right? But in my last year in high school, I discovered genetics. I thought, “Hey! That’s actually way more interesting.” At that time, there was a boom in the biomedical industry. I was getting a lot of influence. When I was choosing what to do in university, I received two offers. One is engineering, the other one is life sciences. After a whole realm of struggle, I decided to choose life sciences. I devoted the first about eight years of my life to it. Although, I’m doing something vastly different now. I would say that genetics, to a larger extent, biology is still my favorite. Joseph:  How did you know whether you wanted to stick with biology versus going and trying something different? Jenny: [08:06] My career is slightly different. I mean, even if you study biology, you could pursue many career paths, right? You could be a high school teacher. You could be a lecturer in the college. You could also be a researcher. You could be a salesperson, what have you, right? I originally chose the academic path. I thought I would become a researcher, and maybe someday teach at a university. But the path as a researcher is not for the faint-hearted. After some years down the road, I realized that I am not super good at it. I love it, but I’m not going to excel in it. It was actually when I was halfway pursuing my doctorate and I was having this self-reflection, “Should I continue or not?” Joseph:  How did you know that you weren’t good at it, just out of curiosity? It takes a lot to admit that we’re not good at something that we’ve already invested a lot of time into. Jenny: [09:08] As a student, as a researcher, you do need to submit some papers. You need to publish your paper. In comparison to my peers, I was struggling with it. I couldn’t meet my own expectations, or the benchmark that I have, this is where my peers are at, I’m supposed to be here around the same time, right? But I know that I can’t. At that point, I knew that I wasn’t going to do very well in it. I spent a lot of time in the lab. A lot of it is animal studies, right? You’re exploring the project by yourself, and by nature, I’m a sociable person. After some time, I feel like, “Maybe I actually prefer a job that has more interactions with people. And you’re right, it takes a lot to admit that you’re not good in something but once you are able to do that, you open up more opportunities for yourself. Joseph:  I can’t remember if I told you this, Jenny, but I was also one of those students in university who studied the pre-medical sciences. One of the courses I had to take was biology, a full-year biology course. I ended up doing a fellowship at a medical school focused on pharmacology research. And so, I was spending all my days, and nights sometimes, in the lab literally pipetting different substances and materials. I spent most of my time counting cells versus actually interacting with people. Jenny: [10:48] There we go. Joseph:  Yeah. I mean, like you, I just felt like, “This is just not me.” I remember not being very good at it. I remember when we had to present our results to the faculty, I was the only person whose results didn’t turn out the way that I had hoped they would have turned out. So, how did you then go from working in that field into what you ended up doing next? Which I understand was event planning, as a bit of a transition into the next chapter in your career. Jenny: [11:20] I mustered up all the courage and I told my supervisor, “Look, I’m sorry but I just wanted to graduate with master’s degree.” And then, I was thinking then, “Now what?” I have a lot of options, but I may not have the necessary qualifications to do those jobs, to pursue those opportunities. I started thinking about what I wanted to do, what I where are my interests. I thought that technology is the second thing that I like. But at that time, IT was taking off. I didn’t have the necessary qualifications. I don’t know how to get in there. Then, I thought, maybe then I should just continue looking for jobs in life sciences but it was tough. Either you graduated with just a bachelor’s and you take up some jobs, or you have to have a doctorate degree. And then, you can go to work for pharmaceutical companies, and then you have a decent job and good opportunities. But just having a master’s degree is hanging there. I struggled to look for jobs. At that time, this event company, they were looking for someone with life sciences background to plan the program and events for life sciences. They offered me the job and I took it up because I was looking for jobs for a few months already. Joseph:  Did you feel like this is where you wanted to end up in event planning, or did you kind of feel this was a transitional role? I’m just curious because sometimes what comes up with people who are trying to make a career change is they wait for the perfect role, or I guess in your case maybe you wait for the right pharmaceutical job to come up, or the right IT job to come up. How did you come to the decision to take this event planning job, which sounds very different from what you had originally thought to do? Jenny: [13:17] It really was a transition because I live here by myself. Ever since I graduated from university, I stopped asking for help from my parents, right? I really struggle for a few months and I couldn’t get a job. I had some friends who helped me, and I have plenty of friends willing to refer me to jobs but it would be working in the laboratory again. I already knew I don’t want to go down that path. I’m not a super ambitious person, but I do wish to achieve something in my life. I know that continuing to work as a research assistant or associate in a lab is not what I want. So, I turned out their offers. There were people who helped me. Those are not jobs that I want. As I was struggling, well you need to pay the bills, right? So, I got this job, and I thought, “Why not I just take the job?” and I slowly figure out where to go from here. Joseph:  How was that being in that event planning job for you? Knowing that it wasn’t maybe ultimately what you wanted to do the rest of your life, but that it was giving you a steady pay check and something to keep yourself busy as you tried to figure out what to do next. Jenny: [14:39] That is a very different industry, I must admit. When I first started, I got a culture shock. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there were a few people who had the same background as I do. Like, they were life sciences graduates but everybody else did not have a life science graduate. That was my first job outside of the academic world. So, it was a big culture shock. I have not really been selling things before. But as an event planner, you kind of have to sell your event and I didn’t know how that worked. And then, the people there, they come from very diverse backgrounds. I actually felt that I was quite lucky because I met some really good colleagues there, and we still remain as friends today. This was about around 10 years ago. Everything felt like, “Oh, my God. This is how things work,” you know. It was a small company, very intimate. I had two events planning jobs. And then, the second one was also a medium-sized company. I learned a lot about the events planning industry. That made me realize that, yes, it truly is just a transition job because it really is not what I want to do. Joseph:  What steps then did you take to figure out what it was that you did want to do while you had this holdover events planning job? Jenny: [16:08] I did continue to apply for pharmacology jobs. Although I know that the chances may be slim, a lot of job openings that was put up, it’s either a clinical trial, kind of associate coordinator, or it’s a lab assistant, or you need to have a Ph.D. I wasn’t really interested in those. But I also thought that, “Okay. I can’t just get stuck.” I thought that I need to look for an opening to technology companies. So, I started looking through jobs trying to see where I can go. How do I get an opening and join? After some searching, I found a job. So, my ex-boss offered me a position at IBM. That’s how I ended up there. Joseph:  Just to switch gears here. Now, you have entered into the IT sector or the tech sector, and this is now I’m assuming very different from what you were doing before. Working in a lab, using your biology knowledge, eventually moving into the event space, but still, it being related to your background in the sciences. It sounds like this was a complete departure from what you were doing before. How was that transition for you moving into IBM? Jenny: [17:31] That was my first MNC job, and I was also culture shock and blown away by many things. Because I never worked in a huge company like that. And, you’re right, a technology as big as that, they tend to move really fast. I don’t know anything at all beyond what I read from the newspaper. But I really wanted to start something. I must admit that other than feeling scared, I also felt insecure. I wasn’t sure if I can keep my job. There was also the constant fear that I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t learning fast enough. And then, given that I got a job in an IT company now, how do I move from here? I have already changed my job once. Like from life sciences to events planning, and from events planning, now to IT. I was determined to make it work. Joseph:  Can you describe what it was like on a day-to-day basis for you to be in this tech job versus what you’re doing before in biology? I’m most interested in just hearing about how you knew that this was not just a repeat situation of being in a lab, where you were completely misplaced but that this was just challenging, and that it was something that you’re going to work on and continue to progress in. Jenny: [10:07] In biology — and you definitely understand it because we came from a similar background, right? A lot of things are evidence-based. But, outside of science, you don’t need to be evidence-based. If you end up in a sales job, you can say anything you want. I admit that it was tough for me because I have the tendency to ask, “Why are people doing this?” To me, the world was either black or white because science is either you can back it by facts or if the fact says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. I struggle a lot with that. The difference is that in science, it was difficult. You were always searching for an answer but you have to use some kind of evidence to prove it. You have failures every day because your results just don’t turn out the way you want, right? And then, you just keep repeating that. But on the other hand, the job that I first started, I was hired as a proposal writer in IBM. Most people are bad at writing. They wanted someone who could understand what the solution is and put it in a very layman’s manner, coming up with certain creative materials to present to the clients to help them understand better. So I was doing a lot more creative thinking work versus the science work, where you need to be very factual. Joseph:  The other question I have for you about your time at IBM, before we move into your most recent transition into Accenture, is just what life was like for you in the tech industry as a whole? Working in a very fast-moving industry, work-life balance, the intensity of the job. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like for you? Jenny: [20:57] Joining IBM provided me with a very good starting ground. Because the job there, it’s busy but it’s not as hectic as my current job. It provided me with a good starting point you know slowly learning the ropes. I was lucky. I do have to say I was always very lucky to have very great and supportive colleagues and mentors. That played an important part in my growth. After that, I transitioned into different roles at IBM, and it just got more and more hectic from there. About a year ago, I joined Accenture. This is by far, my most hectic job. We’re talking about “hectic” as in you go down, you start working, and you have time for lunch. But you don’t really have time to browse Facebook, google for Black Friday sales. Joseph:  You’re working. Jenny: [21:58] You don’t have time for that, yeah. Joseph:  Yeah, you’re focused. You are 100% on, and you do that five days a week, sometimes more. How have you coped with that pace of life at work? The intensity, the non-stop nature of it. Jenny: [22:17] I joined at a time when most of us still have to work from home. It was hectic right from the get-go. The first day I joined, I haven’t gone to my orientation, and there were people already asking me to join project meetings. I was like, “What? It’s just my first day! I don’t even know what’s happening. I don’t even know anyone.” But because I was working from home, I was still able to steal some time away to do exercise because I’m physically active. That helped a lot with the balance. And because when we work from home, we don’t need to take any public transport. That cut down on the transit time. So, I managed to sleep a little bit more. That kind of helped in the transition to my current project because now, I need to travel to the customer’s office every single day. Joseph:  I didn’t ask you this before, Jenny, but how did you go from IBM to Accenture? Is that a move that you had thought to make from tech into consulting, or how did that come about for you? Jenny: [23:20] I was already in my sixth year at IBM. Well, my last job there right I had an incredible career. I really, really liked it. IBM, at that time, made a huge move, they acquired another company. And then, their whole strategy changed a little bit. To be honest, I don’t see where I fit in in that change, I felt like I needed more aggressive growth because I felt I kind of stagnant a little bit. I was actually promoted about half a year before I joined Accenture. I was very grateful to my ex-boss, he trusted me and that was very important to me. But I envisioned that I could stay in this role for a few years. And the growth may not be what I really want. Because I started in IT a lot later than my peers, right? A lot of my peers, they are already directors. They’re doing so much better. Well, of course, that’s the saying that you don’t compare yourself with others, you compare with yourself but I still want to do well. I wanted to do something for myself. So, I didn’t want to stay in a job where I felt that I may not have the kind of growth that I wanted. I started looking out, and I had a few offers and decided to choose Accenture because I believe that it’s the next best place for me to grow. Joseph:  I do want to talk with you about this work-life balance topic and some of the activities that you’ve engaged with outside of work. But before we go to that, I did have one more question about this transition from IBM to Accenture. You mentioned that you had a few different job offers on the table. One of the topics that have been coming up recently in the context of whatever you want to call it, quiet quitting or cushioning, is to while you’re working full time, go ahead and proactively look for roles or network with recruiters, what was your philosophy on that? Jenny: [25:26] If you felt like you were not being treated correctly, and going through HR is not the route that you want to take, then I would suggest that you do need to take that either quiet quitting part, or for some people, they just quit. They don’t even quiet quit, they will quit without a job. But suppose, if it’s just a very hectic job or maybe you’re just currently stuck in a project that you don’t like, things like that. Or, maybe right now, you don’t like some of the people that you’re working with, but there are the other half of the people that you like, then don’t make the decision of quitting so easily. I was very fortunate because I had at one point, wanted to quit what I was doing. But I had a very, very good mentor. He gave me this very good advice that I gave to others right now, too. If you felt that you have learned everything you need from your current role or current company, then it’s time to go. But if you felt like you still have so much more to learn, it’s okay, just bite the bullet. As long as people are abusive to you. Just bite the bullet even if it’s difficult because you’re not going to regret it. Joseph:  One other thing I wanted to chat with you about, which I know you mentioned to me the first time we connected, was some of the activities outside of work that has helped play a role in your career change journey. Can we talk about ballet for a second here, and just explain how that has come up in your life and what role it’s played for you? Not only in your current job but also as you think about career transitions in general. Jenny: [27:16] It was my close friend who introduced ballet to me. I went for a trial class. I thought, “That was good.” And then, after that, I continued. I have since learned ballet for some three years. Sometimes, you’re so busy that I felt I cannot breathe. It was at ballet that I felt time just stopped. I could focus on myself. But more importantly, also my classmates, they come from different backgrounds. You know, women and men of all shapes and sizes. But everybody was just there to pursue one thing that they love. There was no judgment. Like, even if you can’t make a good pirouette, a good turn, no one’s going to laugh at you. Everyone is very encouraging. Having that safe space knowing that I could make mistakes and still feel happy about it, it’s encouraging. It has helped me cope with the stress at work a lot. Joseph:  When we spoke before also, Jenny, you told me about a moment when something happened at work that it came from somebody ridiculing something that you had done, and that hit you pretty hard. How did ballet then help you deal with it? Or was it ballet kind of that sanctuary for you? Jenny: [28:44] I was ridiculed pretty badly at work one day. I felt like, “Oh, my! I probably should quit this job.” I can’t work with people who are so abusive in the languages that they use. It was a Friday, I remember. I always have classes after Friday, after work. So, I went to my class. I must be honest that I was actually at the brink of crying. I thought, that was really terrible. I felt humiliated. But when I went dancing, I was just letting it all go. I was very focused on my dancing. I was reassured by my teacher that it’s okay to make mistakes. I felt that that kind of assurance, plus seeing how people put in so much effort. Even if they can’t do it, it is never discouraged. And, of course, dancing to classical music, it lifted my spirit a lot. Subsequently, when I returned home, I felt that my heart was a lot lighter. Joseph:  The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, talking a little bit more about the performing arts is to first of all talk about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. As I’m listening to you describe this story, Jenny, going from the tech industry into what sounds is an even more intense industry at times in consulting an Accenture, it’s stressful to make a career switch. It is very stressful to have an intensive job. Sometimes, what we can do is we can — or at least, I find myself doing this. I kind of debate whether or not I should invest my time that is already quite limited into a side activity that’s different from my day job, and maybe doesn’t have a direct impact on my ability to excel at my day job. What have you learned from engaging in something like ballet that is very unrelated to work? I’m just curious about what you’ve learned from that. Jenny: [31:00] Of course, there’s no direct relation because I’m doing IT. People would think that, “Why don’t you put your time into good use like learning how to write in another programming language or earn another certificate?” I’m doing that, too. But I felt like, you know, one day, we’re not going to be doing this job anymore. There will be a day when we get old, we want to retire and we want to have something when we grow old. It’s important to develop a hobby, something outside of your life because you’re not just defined by your job. You may be spending 90% of your time at work but that’s not just who you are. that’s just one part of you. I have observed so many people older than me, and I’m extremely lucky that I get to learn from them. I have some classmates of more than 60 years old in my class that’s so amazing. I felt that, even though it’s not directly related, it has been teaching me to so many other life lessons. You don’t have to always do things that can help you excel in your career in terms of technical skills. I’m a manager myself. When I talk to my younger colleagues, they want to help, they wanted some reassurance. I could always apply some of these philosophies that I learned from ballet, share these lessons, or share these things with my colleagues. I felt that that helps you rethink how you want to live your life. It’s important to have a work-life balance. You can’t just work all the time. Even developing hard skill sets. I would consider that, I mean to me, it’s part of life. Of course, there are people who see that as a hobby. But I just wanted to do something different. Joseph:  When you look back on your career change, Jenny, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Jenny: [33:14] I honestly wish that there was someone there to kind of share some tips and advice with me. I did enjoy my short time at events planning but I felt also that it was kind of like I took a detour. It’s that maybe if there was someone that I could consult, maybe I would have reached here a little bit earlier. Maybe I could avoid some pitfalls. I’m still grateful of the hard lessons that I learned, but I may not necessarily want others to repeat my mistakes. Joseph:  Final question for you before we wrap up. Having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Jenny: [34:05] Growing up, I always thought that I was somewhat overconfident, somewhat arrogant. But, when I decided to do the career switch, I realized that I do have the humility to accept that I just cannot do well in something. I found a lot of peace in accepting that I’m just not good at some things, and that’s perfectly fine because I’m good at other things. That discovery has helped me to cope with a lot of things, because some of my superiors, supervisors, managers, they are actually younger than me. I don’t feel bad at all about taking instructions from them or learning from people younger than me. I realized that I’ve developed that humility that even people a lot younger than us always have things to teach us. That’s very important to me. Joseph:  That’s good. That demonstrates how self-assured you are right now. Because a lot of times one of the reasons why we don’t accept advice from others or don’t want to have advice from people perhaps, especially those people who are younger than us, is because we’re not feeling super confident ourselves or we’re a little insecure ourselves about something. So, I think that demonstrates a real maturity on your part as you’ve gone through your journey here. What message would you want to share about performing arts in general, especially there in Singapore? Jenny: [35:41] I know you have listeners, a lot of listeners from Singapore as well, and maybe in the larger part of Asia, right? I do hope that you know whoever is listening to this would be more supportive towards performing arts. I mean being of Asian descent, our Asian parents, or even Asian parents, in general, are not that supportive of their children pursuing performing arts. Therefore, artists, they’re not paid very well and they don’t get a lot of funding. What I hope, and it’s something that I hope I can do in the near future, once I get used to all this hectic life sort of stabilize because I think I’m still trying to stabilize things, I do hope to put in more time to volunteer and help to grow the awareness in performing arts. I hope that more people would come to support the performances. Be it buying a ticket, watching a performance, or even coming to volunteer, donating. There’s a lot of help that is needed for performing arts, especially in a country like Singapore, where people value other white-collar jobs. I hope people would start understanding that you can have a very successful life and career in performing arts. Joseph:  Is there any particular performing arts entity there in Singapore you want to give a shout-out to? Jenny: [37:16] Yes, definitely. I’m attending adult ballet classes at Singapore Ballet. I’m extremely grateful to my teachers there. I hope that whoever’s listening to this can buy a ticket, support their performances. I know my teachers, they are always very encouraging. I know that they could use a bit more support. I want to thank Singapore Ballet for being part of this important journey of my growth and self-discovery. Joseph:  Alright. Well, thank you so much, Jenny, for telling me more about your transitions from biology, to IT, to then project management, and also just the importance of your non-work activities and how those things have played such a big part in your own philosophies and perspectives. It was very interesting hearing about how the performing arts had been a big part of your journey. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your role at Accenture and also your ongoing ballet classes. I also hope you make a full recovery from COVID soon. Thanks for being on the show. Jenny: [38:19] Thank you for inviting me, Joseph. I do hope that by sharing my journey, I can help a lot of people who have doubts about changing careers or who are feeling unsure of where they are at the moment. I hope to be able to provide that little confidence and maybe just a little bit of positivity in their life. What you’re doing is meaningful. I would continue to support your podcast, and also wishing you all the best. Joseph:  Thank you so much, Jenny. I appreciate it.

Our guest on Career Relaunch® podcast episode 91 is a lawyer turned workplace wellbeing consultant Tom Keya. If you’re like me, your stereotypical image of lawyers may involve fast-track professionals in slick suits working at a high-rise office in a big city, working with high-profile clients, and earning lots of money—the kind of stuff you might see on TV. Tom’s career in a law firm kind of started like this. He lived and breathed the life of a high-flying lawyer in central London, earning a high salary with big bonuses, and in many ways, he felt like he was at the top of his game. However, the pressure of being a high-performing lawyer began to whittle away at his mental and physical well-being. He lost his health, his purpose, and self-worth by ruthlessly trying to succeed in an intense industry. After eventually suffering a complete mental breakdown, he took a year-long career break and decided to stop practicing law entirely. Tom discusses his vicious and dangerous spiral that involved drugs, alcohol, and pushing his body and life to the point of total collapse. He also explains the realities of corporate life in a big city and what he did to rescue himself from what became an unhealthy downward spiral. Finally, I’ll share my perspectives on how I think about where I want my career to head in the future during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways Your job has a direct impact on your lifestyle. You must remain mindful of whether your work is taking your life in the direction you desire. Hitting rock bottom often forces you to reassess who you are and what you want for your life and career. However, paying attention early on to any signs that suggest you’re headed in the wrong direction can help you avoid a lot of unnecessary pain. Healing in the environment where you got sick is very difficult. At the same time, leaving even a bad situation behind can be quite scary. If an environment is unhealthy for you, you owe it to yourself to explore other avenues. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about  identifying what’s most important to you at work. Pinpoint three things most important for you to have in your professional life. Then, think about how you want things to look across these priorities exactly one year from now. Decide which things you want to refrain from pursuing, to simply maintain as-is, or to proactively obtain. Then, shape your efforts and actions accordingly. About Tom Keya, Workplace Wellbeing Consultant Former lawyer Tom Keya is the owner and chief executive of a corporate wellbeing consultancy and employee wellbeing technology platform Soulh Tech, and a keynote impact investing speaker at the Impact 17+1 Club. He now works with companies to monitor the health and happiness of their employees and improve employee well-being, happiness, and retention. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms.  Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): The mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. No human being can sustain that level of energy. Joseph: Okay, Tom. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is fantastic to have you on the show. Tom: [03:56] It’s great to be here. Joseph: Let’s start off. Before we dive into your career as a lawyer, and now, your focus on workplace well-being. Let’s talk a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. What is keeping you busy? Tom: [04:12] First of all, thank you so much, Joseph, for inviting me on your podcast. I’m very excited to share my experience with as many people as I can. Presently right now, I’m working on a corporate well-being platform, as well as doing business development for a lot of professional services firms out here. Fundamentally, what I do is I go to businesses and I carry out surveys of their staff. Not necessarily to teach them about stress, anxiety, or anything like that. The sort of usual stuff that people do to take a box. But rather to provide CEOs with a proper map of where their staff indexes as at a given time. And we do two types of surveys. The first one is, of course, one about the building. How people are feeling about being in the building. The second one is their mental health and how they’re feeling. Separate to that and similar side, I work at Rothberg LLC, which is a professional services firm in Dubai. They do a lot of company formations in Dubai, as well as just general advice for companies and families that are here. I do a lot of business development for them. Joseph: Very interesting. And it sounds like this well-being topic is extremely top of mind right now, especially post-pandemic or I guess, we’re currently still in the pandemic. But I know in most of the surveys I’m looking at, because I focus on career change, a lot of people are starting to look much more at emotional and physical well-being in the workplace. It sounds like you are in the right space at this moment in time. Could I also ask, Tom, just a little bit about your personal background? I know you mentioned you’re in Dubai right now. Where are you from and where do you spend your time these days? Tom: [05:49] I was raised in the UK. I’m ethnically Persian. But most of the time, I’m between the two countries. I’m in Dubai a lot longer than the UK, but I try and get to the UK at least one or two months a year just to carry on with what I’m doing in terms of mental health. And it’s very interesting you said that mental health is really in these days. I’ve been probably suffering from this for a good 15 years exactly. Joseph: We will talk about that. Tom: [06:15] And for the first five years, I’ve dedicated my life to it. So it was good to catch it right before the pandemic. And I think a lot of people these days are focused on mental health and well-being for two reasons. One, because of the pandemic and everything that arose from there. But also because working from home has now made the employers compete with the comforts of someone’s home. It’ll be interesting to both explore on this conversation. Joseph: Let’s do this, Tom. Why don’t we first of all go back and talk about your former career as a corporate lawyer. Because I know you haven’t always been professionally focused on workplace well-being. But I know that you also dealt with some issues personally as you were going through your career journey. But why don’t we first of all just start with your career history. And could you just tell me about your time as a corporate lawyer, and then we’ll move forward from there? Tom: [06:58] There are two types of lawyers in the world. There are those that want to succeed in life and enter the city and play with the big boys, let’s say. And there are those who seek justice for people. I was probably the former than the latter. My father died when I was very, very young. So financial security was very, very big on my mind. So, I entered the city. I worked at a very good city law firm for I’d say around 12 years, give or take. I worked at the highest level in the sense that I worked through extremely long hours to become a partner in that business and lead effectively a subdivision, focusing on basically, fundamentally, banks and family offices. Joseph: What kind of hours are we talking about here when you say you’re working pretty hard? Can you just describe like how many days a week? How many hours a day are we talking? Tom: [07:47] If you want to succeed as a lawyer, you have to treat it like a lifestyle. It’s sort of impossible to treat it as a job. If you want to work 9-to-5, law is definitely not the job for you. So, give or take, 5 a.m. till about 10:30 p.m. was where my hours, give or take. We worked different time zones. I certainly had to get up quite early for my middle eastern clients. And then, you work throughout the day. Pretty much non-stop. Joseph: Wow! Okay. And this is five days a week, six days a week? Tom: [08:22] Five days a week, definitely. And then, over the weekend, you’d probably spend four or five hours. Either doing business development meeting some of the clients who can only meet each other on the weekend or more likely catching up on work to make your Monday morning just a little bit gentler. Joseph: Rightly or wrongly, I guess my perception of the world of law is driven by A, my direct experience working with lawyers may be related to my business or maybe if I’m buying a house. But, probably more often than not, just kind of what I see on TV. And that may not be fair about, you know, “Law and Order,” “Suit.” Like how much do you feel — though, obviously, it’s not an accurate representation of the real world, but what were your perceptions going into law versus your direct experience as a lawyer? Tom: [09:06] Your perception when you want to enter the legal career is that you’re going to be surrounded by very, very intelligent people. You’re going to be surrounded by academics. And, you’re going to be given these big complex problems to solve, and deals to close, and cases to litigate, and all of these wonderful things that rightly like yourself you see on TV. The reality of it is markedly different in the sense that — and this is right across all law firms. I’m not particularly picking on one firm or the other. I’m specifically choosing the general market is that you’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who have a lot of personal baggage. You’re going to be dealing with a lot of people who, because their identities are surrounded by law that by being say, for example, a senior person within a team, they effectively treat it like a feudal kingdom. And also, there’s a lot of just paper pushing, you know. As a junior lawyer, you don’t do anything interesting right up until probably about three years qualified. Until then, you write the bundling papers, or filling out forms, or taking notes. Joseph: Okay. Tom: [10:10] You’ll be lucky to get a letter in and out of there. In your image that I’m going to walk in, they’re going to give me all this stuff very quickly crushed when someone says, “There’s 60 boxes in there. I need you to review every single one of them and, hopefully, find one a document that I’m looking for;” which always ends up being on the 65th box, right towards the end. And you take your tie off, you pull up your sleeves, and literally, you’re in a basement and looking through these dirty, disgusting files. Of course, that gives away my age. I think a lot of things are done electronically, but the principle is the same. Joseph: I’m trying to just imagine you in the basement, doing this as you describe “paper pushing.” What was running through your head at that moment when you started to realize that this was your reality? Did you start to think about doing something else, or did you continue to push forward? What was your MO at the time? Tom: [11:00] One of the common things lawyers face is imposter syndrome. Because you sort of think, “I’m not good enough for this job.” Certainly, when you’re reviewing those boxes, you don’t feel imposter syndrome. Joseph: I don’t think I can handle this. Tom: [11:13] I think the shock that enters the mind isn’t so much about the work you’re doing. Now, you could be very lucky and end up working for a nice person within the team. You, as a junior lawyer, could walk in, there’s super nice guys like, “Look, dude. I’m really sorry to put you through this, but 60 boxes for you to review. Trust me, we’ll go for a beer on Friday. I’ll make it up to you. But I really need you to pay very close attention.” Of course, you do need to pay close attention. Law is a very hazardous job. You miss that document; your client could lose a multi-million-pound case. You end up giving your all at a tedious task. But in my case, for example, I was quite unlucky in the sense that I ended up working with not-so-pleasant people. There was one person who was awesome that I worked with. But you’re told, probably in very demeaning ways, to do your job. You’re treated very, very harshly. And into that, that makes you reconsider whether you want to do this. Because when you speak to other trainees at other law firms, they’re like, “Oh yeah. There’s this guy. He’s so horrible. He threw a stapler at me,” you know. You’re like, “Wow! Compared to him, I’ve got it pretty good.” But if this is the best out of all my friends, do I really want to do this? But the financial security point that I mentioned earlier really requires one to sort of step in and just take it. Joseph: Now, before we talk about what impact all this had on you, mentally and physically, I did have one question that you alluded to when we first spoke, which was a dynamic that I think exists in many corporate environments, which is that unless you’re at the top of the food chain in an organization, you’re investing a lot of energy to try to get to the top. Could you describe what your experience was in, not only climbing the corporate ladder but wanting to climb the corporate ladder within a law firm? Tom: [12:52] Basically, top of the food chain is exactly the only place you’ll feel comfortable. Of course, that’s when imposter syndrome kicks in. But if you want to play it very rough, you would be doing the backstabby way of, you know, “I’m going to try and bury this guy so, in comparison, I look better.” I always do this analysis where I say, “Look, envy is when you look at someone and you want to be like them or better. Jealousy is when you look at someone and you basically say, ‘Oh my God! I want to take him down,’ because I’m never going to be as good as that person.” Most lawyers tend to be envious, not jealous. So, there isn’t that much backstabbing really going on. But what you do is you effectively backstab yourself. In the sense that you know that, “Look, if I want to get to the next stage, I won’t do it as 9-to-5. So, I need to be at 8:00 till 6:00. And you get in at 8:00, and see a whole bunch of people who’ve been there already for two hours. You know, the two hours ahead of you. You’ve come in an hour early. So you’re like, “You know what? I need to come in three hours earlier.” And it’s not so much they’re deliberately trying to take you down or anything. Nothing like that is happening. It’s just they’re saying, “Look, the mission to the top requires this much effort. And if you don’t do it, you won’t make it to the top.” And this happened with me towards some of my cohorts. In the sense that I went past a lot of people that were probably two or three years ahead of me when I first started. So the rewards are visible. As you perform better, you’re rewarded better. As you work harder, you progress faster. There is no lie in that in any, any law firm. Unless you work for a very, very small law firm where there’s only one partner. Joseph: As I’m hearing this, Tom, what I’m envisioning in my mind is a super stressful environment. And I’m also feeling this real need to achieve, and excel, and accelerate in your career. I’d like to shift gears here now and talk a little bit about the personal impact this had on you, and how you dealt with this personally. When I’m thinking about the pace of law as you’re describing it, can you explain to me, beyond the work itself, what were some of the steps that you took to just maintain that pace? Tom: [14:56] No human being can sustain that level of energy. It doesn’t really happen. The way it starts normally is for your early 20s, you can keep up. For your early 20s, generally speaking, what you do is you throw yourself into the fire and you’ve got a lot of capacity. You smash it out. And on Fridays, because you haven’t done anything all week because you’ve just been working or trying to do business development in the evenings, certainly within the British culture, the only way forward is Friday drinks. And that’s something I celebrate. I still do every now and again. It’s quite fun. Go to the pub, get a couple of drinks, then a couple more drinks, then a couple more drinks. Of course, what then happens is you wake up on Saturday feeling rough. And as you get older, that waking up on Saturday gets worse and worse and worse. And to be able to keep up at this pace, you don’t necessarily within that environment realize that you have developed a mental health problem in the form of OCDs, addictions, et cetera. You wake up one day and you’re like, “Look, I just can’t physically get out of bed. Oh, it might be too many drinks last night.” And, eventually, at some point somewhere, someone said, “Look, you know something. You know that guy down the corridor who’s keeping up with you? You know, he’s actually on drugs.” He’s either taking Ritalin or whatever, and that’s why he’s going up. We’re trying to compete organically against someone so synthetic. It starts with having one coffee. And that’s why I sort of discourage people drinking coffee because that’s how it all starts. That’s with having one coffee to eight cups a day. Then it goes from eight cups won’t do it. So then, you start entertaining other things. I’m not saying that happens to everyone. But what I’m saying is when you’re exhausted and drinking tea or coffee is not keeping you awake, you then eventually turn to drugs. And I’m talking, obviously, very serious drugs here. And it comes to a Friday where you’re just completely drained, you can’t physically lift yourself, your friends are all like, “Tom, let’s go out for a couple of drinks.” And you’re like, “I just can’t do this.” And of course, what then happens is someone gives you something and suddenly you get on it, “Let’s go have fun!” And what you’re basically doing here is you’re replacing happiness with fun. You equate fun being happiness. You’re like, “As long as I’m out on Friday until 4 a.m. in the morning, that means I’m enjoying my youth.” That’s what you basically start to think. And the next thing you know, that becomes almost habitual. It becomes a thing that, “Look, I can push it to the nth degree, but I know I’ve got something that can help me push it even further.” And that’s exactly where it goes wrong. That’s exactly when you’re like, “I’m unstoppable. I’m Immortal. I’m doing all these wonderful things.” And, actually, you don’t realize this. You’re opening yourself up to effectively hell. Drugs and alcohol are a huge part of the city. And I think anyone who doesn’t talk about this openly is doing disservice. They’re not raising awareness of what is actually going on on the ground, and that’s just the fact. Joseph: Just to get specific here, what kind of drugs are we talking about here and how long were you on these drugs for? Tom: [17:49] For two years, I was probably experimenting with different drugs before I had a complete categorical breakdown. Joseph: What? We’re talking cocaine? Are we talking — Tom: [17:58] This is a typical example. For example, you decide that you want to go away for the weekend. And the way it really works is you work, you beast it, right until Friday evening. Okay? And now, you decide to take a flight to Ibiza to party with your friends. Because as I said earlier, what you’re doing is you’re equating fun with happiness. You’re basically saying, “As long as I’m partying, I’m happy.” You’re not saying, “happiness with everything around me.” Sort of like trying to run away. Sort of like trying to escape the reality of what you’re facing. In that regard, you say great to seek this unbelievable happiness. I am going to stay awake. So you land in Ibiza, and the first thing someone does is gives you some coke. We take that. That helps you stabilize. And now, you’re going to the party where everyone’s just drinking MDMA. And what means sort of started accidentally. I went to Ibiza with a bunch of guys, and I didn’t know what was going on. And one of them gave me a bottle of water, and I drank it, and I was able to keep up for the entire two days. And then, someone said, “By the way, the water you drank was actually drugs. It was MDMA.” Joseph: Okay, Tom. So at the risk of coming across as a bit naive and sounding like I’ve lived in a bubble my whole life. As someone myself who has never used illicit drugs or been around illicit drugs, or even seen that many drugs in my life, could you give me a sense of exactly how pervasive drug usage was amongst the people around you? Tom: [19:24] Do a sample test of anyone working in the city, anyone. And out of 100 people, give or take, 80 would test positive. Joseph: Wow! Tom: [19:34] I would be surprised if it’s less. There are a lot of people I know who don’t, of course. But at any given time, 80 of the people working in the city, within service square mile or Wall Street, will be on something for sure. Because you could receive an email now at 7:30 a.m. in the morning, by 8:15, you get a Whatsapp from a client saying, “Hey, did you receive my email?” By 9:15, they expect the draft back. By 11:00, you send it to the other side. By 3:00, they send the response back. I mean how do you keep up with that place? Joseph: It’s incredibly quick, yeah. Tom: [20:14] And you sacrifice. Obviously, you don’t want to be high while you’re working. But I’ll touch on what happens when you take drugs a bit later. If you’re high while you’re working, then you’re going to be making some bad decisions. But what basically happens is you’ve partied very hard on the weekend. And now, you’re stealing the pain. Because what drugs do is they take you up, and then you come crashing down. And what you’re dealing with now at this stage is the calm down. It’s the anxiety, the depression, and everything that has come with it. Put on top of that, the stress and the pressures of the working environment. The bad boss who wants to screw you, who comes to the office drunk at lunchtime, screaming at everyone. So what you then do is you turn to your doctor for some sort of mental health medication, right? That will basically be something like Xanax. In order to calm you down so you don’t have a panic attack within your working environment. Mixing Xanax with alcohol and drugs means that you’re basically going down this spiral, or you’re going to end up making some huge mistakes or doing something wrong. But while you’re in that mindset, while you’re in that mood, all you want to do is get rid of the hard competition. You don’t think about the impact this is going to have on your decision-making skills. And come what may, on Friday, you’re still getting calls from your colleagues saying, “Let’s go for a couple of drinks. We got to have a couple of drinks, but we got to close this;” or “Tom, I’m really sorry that I screamed at you. I’ll make it up to you over a couple of drinks.” So you see? It creates its own environment. Joseph: Given the fact that it sounds like this behavior is quite normalized and quite common and acceptable in the industry, at what point did you realize that something had to change for you? Tom: [21:59] I think it all happened around five years ago. And if I genuinely told you, I can’t remember a lot of what happened five years ago during that nearly a whole year. But, basically, I think I tried to resign twice. I made like a couple of mistakes, and I tried to resign. And at the time my workplace, I was billing them you know millions a year. They were making a lot of money for me, so they didn’t really care. And I was dissuaded from resigning. And then, I think I made a pretty major mistake. I mean my cognitive ability was awful. Joseph: Related to a client? Related to a project? Tom: [22:34] It was more like an internal mistake. But in law, the biggest fear you have is not necessarily your boss nor is it the client, it’s the regulators. Because the regulators are very aggressive. And just now, they’re beginning to get a grip on the mental health pandemic that’s happening in within the legal profession, very recently now. And this should have been handled maybe 15, 20 years ago. But I’m glad they’re getting a grip of it. But as soon as someone says, “I’m going to make a complaint against you,” that’s your entire career at that person’s disposal. The biggest fear is the regulator. And I made a mistake it was a regulatory error for sure. And as soon as it landed and the firm realized, “Okay. Well, now, this could be an ‘us’ issue rather than just ‘him’ issue.” They basically wrote me a list of saying, “Look, you know, Tom, this is a serious mistake.” I resigned very shortly after that. But what happened was, in my mind, I had 12 years of my life I’d given to these guys. Made them so much money and got very little reward, if I may say, financially out of it. Career-wise, definitely right to the top; financially, not so much. And then, when I needed the most, they chewed me out and spat me up. Okay. So that was the punch I saw not coming anywhere. Because I thought to myself, “No matter what happens, these guys are going to back me.” They’re going to be like, “Tom, we’ve got you. Don’t you worry about it. You’ve made some mistakes. Let’s meet up, fix it, and then figure out what we’re going to do with you after.” Instead, it was like, “You’re on your own. Good luck.” And I had a complete nervous breakdown. Now, when we say complete nervous breakdown, a lot of people think I was a little bit stressed, I couldn’t get up, no. I couldn’t get out of bed for a month. For a full month, I was flat on the ground. So I lost 11 kilos pretty much straight away. I almost became half the man I was before. And that’s when at last, I went into therapy. And they diagnosed me with every single thing that I thought was perfectly normal. I was touching wood maybe 50 times a day thinking that’s normal. I couldn’t look at red post boxes. I thought, “Oh, that, I’m just scared about them.” OCD, like what are you scared about? Waking up in the morning with my heart racing, needing Xanax to calm it down. That’s not normal. You’re a guy in your 20s, you should not wake up at heart palpitations. You should not just be able to sleep for hours. You should not need drugs to party. You should not this and that. And suddenly, you begin to realize actually everything I’ve done, at least for the past seven years of my life, has been completely wrong. And that’s when I really woke up to it. That’s when I was like, “Okay. Well, this was a mistake. Let’s see what’s left of my life. Let me see what pieces I can pick up, and then figure out what I’m going to do next.” Joseph: So you’re describing what I often hear from people may not be to this extreme, but there is a point where you hit rock bottom in your career and your life. And it forces you to then wake up, come up for air, and figure out what you want to do next. How did you go about figuring that out? Tom: [25:31] The first thing was that I needed to close up whatever happened to my former workplace and get closure on it. So therapy was the first thing. And I say to people, “Look, sports and therapy. Sports, because your body and mind are connected. Therapy, because your body and mind are connected.” So when you go to therapy, you’re basically training your mind. You’re making it stronger. Now, some people like to do meditation, phenomenal. No one on earth is going to tell you meditation doesn’t help. Plenty of studies that proved it. Buddhists have been doing it for thousands of years with wonderful effects. In fact, a lot of stuff you learn in therapy are about mindfulness, which has been in the Buddhist culture for thousands of years. So first, it was, “Let me just lift myself physically up and be able to be active again.” Which I did through therapy. Joseph: How quickly were you able to get off of the drugs that were causing these highs and lows? Tom: [26:20] Right. So the drugs were instant. Because when I went to my psychiatrist, he turned around and said, “There is absolutely no way I’m treating you if you’re involved in any of this stuff. You can’t touch this. This is going to kill you.” I thought that it was a drug that made me make the mistakes that I did. And in my psychiatrist now, I figured out actually no. The pressures in the work environment drove me to such a corner, alongside with my own personal ambition. I’m not saying that you go into the work environment, someone says, “You have to kill yourself,” no. Your personal ambition is a big part of what drives you. Where I needed a synthetic push. I needed something synthetic to sort of drive me forward. He said, “Look, I’m going to have to put you on actual mental health medication just so I can reach into you and figure out what’s going on in there. Because right now, there’s just too many panic attacks happening.” And if anyone’s had a panic attack, it’s something that a lot of people just throw around because I just had a panic attack. In reality, a panic attack is this sort of feeling where you’re basically assuming you’re in the worst possible place imaginable. In my situation, I thought that someone’s going to come and take me away and lock me up somewhere. That was on my mind the entire time. And then, I was put on mental health medication that allowed me to sort of lift myself up again through therapy. Then the challenge was, “Now that you’re a mental health medication, we need to get you off it now.” And that’s another journey of its own. So between my mental breakdown and me being able to get back up, I’d say there was probably about six months of work that was needed. They were like, “Okay. Well, look, I’m back. What’s left of my life? What have I got around me?” And that’s when you know the old saying, the tradition was saying, “Oh, yes! I know who my best friends are now. I know who’s my family. The value of family,” et cetera. I was very lucky enough with an amazing network and a wonderful family that I was like, “Okay. Well, let’s give this another go.” Joseph: It sounds like the therapy was helpful, time was helpful. Just stepping back away from that high-pressure environment was useful. Was there anything that ultimately tipped the scales and opened your eyes to the idea of then helping set up law firms helping with business development? How did that open up for you? Tom: [28:33] The thing that comes to mind is that this was entirely avoidable. I realized, again in therapy, that I could have quit a lot earlier, work in a much better environment or created a better environment, and not had to suffer the way I suffered. It’s that that drove me. The fact that everything I’ve been through was perfectly avoidable with the right advice and the right guidance. Now, I’m not saying speaking to 22-year-old Tom, you could have persuaded him to work less. I don’t think so, and nor should you. But I think, with the right advice, you could persuade people to know the limits before they have the breakdown. To catch the signs early before things really, really, really mess up effectively. I think when I woke up after six months, I came to, fundamentally, I realized, “Look, none of this needed to happen. Okay. Well, how do I now give back? How do I make sure this doesn’t happen to anyone else?” By the way, during this period, I was that Alpha guy. I was the guy that was like, “Look, who needs therapy? You know, get a couple of drinks, we’ll be fine.” And, suddenly, I realized one, the world didn’t end by me not practicing law. It seems as all the clients are fine. Two, my friends don’t like me less by me not being part of a large city law firm. My friends still like me for me. My family is still proud of me. When you realize that you’re like, “Okay. Well then, great! I can do other things. I can do wonderful things that doesn’t necessarily need this much pressure.” Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, can you now tell me a little bit more about the work that you ended up deciding to pursue? And I suppose, I’m especially interested in understanding how you knew that you were going to be good at this, and how you knew that this was going to be the right path for you. Tom: [30:22] I’d say to anyone looking for a career transition, “You’ll never know.” So don’t look around looking for something you’re absolutely quite categorically confident in. There are ways to ease yourself into it. So for me, one of my friends was setting up a law firm. So I went to him and I said, “Look, let me do the foundational elements. Let me try and help you avoid your firm fundamentally having something wrong with it by having people who could have mental health problems.” And you know, I started handing out, really researching finding out, “Look, businesses are losing 25% of their productivity. Thanks to people who are suffering mentally.” You know you can bring in McKenzie, or PWC, BCG even to try and increase productivity by 25%. Or you can look after your staff, much more cost-effective, yes, and give you much more staff loyalty. So I started an experiment that happened with Barclay Road when I went in at the very foundational level. And I was like, “Look, I don’t want to practice law. I’ll do the business development elements. But, fundamentally, I want to be there for the staff. I’m want to talk to them about my experience. I want to make sure that the higher ambitious people so I can tell them how to use their ambition. And I would do that the help of a therapist.” On the mental health side, they’ll come in because I know a lot about mental health in the workplace, but I’m not a mental health expert. So, I brought in the experts. I brought in the psychiatrists, the psychologists, the CBT specialists. And we started working on the staff. And the result was completely remarkable. When people were suffering during COVID, Berkeley Rowe’s profitability went up by 200%, something ridiculous. And that’s because the people were trained to handle tough situations. It wasn’t a stress management course, where when you get stressed, try allocating the top priority to the lower priority. Because I was so in it, and I knew all these mistakes that one could make. I would teach them to manage clients. I would teach them to manage their colleagues. And I would teach them to say “no.” Joseph: Well, that’s a very interesting transition, Tom. And the last thing I was hoping to talk about before we wrap up with the mental health platform that you’ve recently launched, which I do want to come back to at the end. I am very curious to hear about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. And the first question I have for you is just what you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Tom: [32:46] The best thing I learned was that you can’t heal in the environment you got sick in. But that’s why I love your podcast because it’s about career change. It’s not about job change. And a lot of people I suppose think that, “Look, I hated working in this place. But if I move to that place, I’ll be better.” If you really love your work, you’ll never work again. If you really, really love your work, even in high-pressured environments, you can sort of find a way where you can find the stable route. But when you’re reaching breakdown level, that’s not a healthy environment for you. You need to get out as quickly as you possibly can. The thing I learned was it’s a scary path to go down. Humans are animals of habits. You know what to do. You’ve been trained how to do it. You’re older now, “Oh, my God! How am I going to deal with the age difference? Am I going to earn less?” Et cetera. And I would tell people, “Look, what’s the trade-off?” We know that stress causes the worst possible health problems, we know that. We know that for a fact. So do you want to have this poison in you just for the sake of money? And I promise you, you spend all that money trying to treat yourself after. So what I learned was the pursuit of happiness is much more of a fun and adventurous journey than the pursuit of wealth. The weirdest thing is, as soon as you do that, you start making more money. For sure, without a doubt. Joseph: Yeah, that’s really interesting, Tom. Because something you mentioned there about getting out of the environment that caused you to be sick. One of the questions that comes up a lot in the line of work that I do is from people who have this belief — and I suppose this is fuelled by just common wisdom that it’s much easier to find your next job when you’re currently employed than it is if you resign from your job that you don’t like, and then you’re unemployed then you try to find a job. What’s your perspective on that? And I suppose, I’m most interested in trying to get a sense of whether you felt like you could have healed if you just kept the stable full-time job while you’re trying to figure out what to do next. Tom: [34:40] Each person is different, right? I had the luxury of not having a wife and kids. So I could “almost afford” to move back into my mom’s place and figure out the next step. I think, as with anything in life, imagine you’re removing a plaster from your injured finger, right? Pull it. There is no point doing it slowly. You’re just making the thing last. And I think the best way to relaunch your career, the best way to change, is to put yourself in a very, very difficult spot. And that is quit your job. Now, you have no other option but to move. That environment has been fixed. That environment has made you want to go. No money is worth it. No one can pay me genuinely anything to go back into the environment ever again. I would say, “Do it. Instantly. Don’t wait.” Forget anxiety. Brilliant things happen when you’re stressed. Your creativity levels go up. Your thinking becomes sharper. Your mind becomes a lot more agile. And I come across a lot of young people for like, “I’ve got this full-time job. I’m working on the start-up on the side.” I say to them, “Look, you’re in your early 20s, work on the start-up. Quit it. Make that start-up your only way out. And trust me, it’ll be a success.” But if you’re trying to put one foot in and the other foot out, you’re never ever going to leap. You’re going to pivot but never leap. Joseph: What’s something that you wished people knew about climbing the corporate ladder that you now know? Tom: [36:06] I started literally at the time when throwing staplers around the office was becoming taboo, just at the beginning. I still had a couple of staplers been thrown at me. I still had a couple of folders been thrown at me. I was well within that era where they could scream at you to the top of their lung, and you just have to sit there and take it. I don’t know whether that still exists. I haven’t worked in that environment that much anymore. The simple ability to not take that, I wish I knew at the beginning that just being completely loyal is not the answer. You work at a place for four years you get everything you want out of it. Now, if that environment is no longer healthy for you, experiment with the new one. You lose nothing as a result. You literally lose nothing if you just leave. And for me, I chose stability and loyalty over happiness, and a little bit of risk. Joseph: A final question for you. You alluded to your 22-year-old Tom before, and I was curious. What you would tell him now about making a career change? Tom: [37:06] Twenty-two-year-old Tom was an unstoppable beast. He wants to conquer the world. He wants to become super rich. He wants to have a business and that. The beautiful thing about your career change is that your ambitions never really die. You don’t have to completely kill yourself and become dull and some sort of middle manager somewhere stuck. I would tell 22-year-old Tom, work for five years and set up your own business, that’s what I would say. Because I was very entrepreneurial. I’m still entrepreneurial, but I was raised within an environment where you’re told that the best possible outcome is being employed. I would say “no.” If you’re entrepreneurial, have a go at it yourself. Trust me, you’ll find amazing things once you start working for yourself. And I would tell him, “Jesus Christ! Look after your mental health.” I mean, if there was a me when I was young, and someone like me came to our office and he said, “Guys, this is how you avoid regulatory pitfalls. This is how you avoid having problems in your job.” And the answer to that simply is look after your mental health. I’m not saying organize your documents adequately. I’m not saying prioritize this and that. I’m saying, “Are you waking up with a hard competition?” Yes, I am. Not good. Okay, resign. Period. Aggressively so. Are you having only four hours of sleep, and you’re stressed when you go to bed, and you’re stressed when you’re waking up, consistently over a month? Because sometimes, just jobs are stressful. You’re going to be stressed for a month, that’s fine. But if it’s consistent, quit. Quit, straight away. You’re going to make a mistake. You’re going to do something stupid. Can you tell me that you can’t remember what happened last month in your 20s? Yeah. Okay, quit. When I go into businesses, I just tell the staff, “What’s not normal?” And the weirdest thing is seeing these eyes just open when I’m talking about very broadly my experiences, suddenly you see stars in some of these people’s eyes. Because they’re like, “Oh, my God! I do that!” “Oh my goodness! I do that.” I’ve had so many people come to me saying, “Tom, I think I’ve got OCD.” And I’m like, “What do you do?” He was like, “Well, to make sure that the email doesn’t come back from the clients, I count to seven. And, usually, it works out well because seven is a lucky number.” I’m like, “That’s not normal.” There have been times, genuinely, when I’ve done these talks and the person who wants to do the talk took me to one side and said, “I may not say these things. Because you know, at one point, I have to discipline my staff.” And I said to him, “Look, if you’re disciplining them the way I’m saying you are, then you need to change.” I see engagements from management and staff. A lot of people are understanding that being the boss doesn’t make you king, and being an employee doesn’t make you a peasant. We’re all in this together. So how can we get the best out of each other? Joseph: Well, I’d love to wrap up, Tom, with what you are also focused on right now. I understand you have recently launched a mental health platform. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about Soulh Tech? Tom: [39:49] The way Soulh Tech works, I go in and do talks for businesses about their mental health. And what we’ve done is we’ve plugged Soulh Tech in, which is a survey once a month, every Monday morning. Because, usually, people feel at their worst on a Monday morning. And after about six months, we produce this map to CEOs where we basically show them where their staff’s mental health is and has been for the past six months. And also, how the staff are interacting with the building. In an environment where people are sort of beginning to either really take on working from home, or struggle with bringing people to the office, we give them an idea of where the staff is. And it’s great because we see how people are feeling and they’ll be able to action that before it’s too late. Joseph: I am looking forward to hearing how that platform evolves. And I just wanted to thank you so much, Tom, for giving us a candid glimpse into your former life as a lawyer and how that has now evolved into your focus on well-being and the importance of pursuing happiness over everything else. So, thanks again for your time, and best of luck with your work as a well-being consultant. Tom: [40:53] Thank you, Joseph. And thank you for what you’re doing. Because I think it creates hope for a lot of people. Especially a lot of lawyers think there is no life outside of law. A podcast like yours shows everyone in every profession, there’s a wonderful life outside of what they’re doing.

When does it make sense to let go of stability to boldly pursue the unknown? In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Samantha Tovera-Agustin, an HR professional turned founder explains why she chose to move her career, family, and life from the Bay Area to the Philippines. We’ll discuss the challenging balance between work and parenthood, signs that suggest you may need a change in your career, and ways you can prevent career regret. I also share some thoughts on the importance of reconnecting with old friends during the Mental Fuel® segment. Key Career Takeaways When you work hard to get to where you are in your career, letting go of all this investment is incredibly hard. People often regret the inactions they took in their careers to do something bold and brave that honors their values. Surrendering to the unknown and allowing yourself to potentially fail enables you to open the door to new, exciting opportunities in your life and career. To be there for others, you have to make sure you’re taking care of your own health and well-being first. Societal expectations can lead us to feel like we need to be working and hustling all the time. But slowing down is not only okay but also necessary sometimes to see more clearly and reconnect with yourself. Resources Mentioned We discussed the topic of regret. The book I mentioned is The Power of Regret by Daniel Pink, which I would highly recommend! Listener Challenge I’d challenge you to reconnect with a long-lost friend from your past. f you’re like me, I find it a bit awkward to suddenly drop a note to someone you haven’t spoken to in years. I’d still challenge you to do it—just to see what happens. Even if you don’t rekindle the relationship, at the very least, you can let that person know that you’re still thinking about them. And that alone can be valuable. You never know what kind of an impact that could have on them. About Samantha Tovera-Agustin Samantha Tovera-Agustin is a seasoned HR professional specializing in talent acquisition, leadership development, and employee engagement. When the pandemic hit in 2019, she launched her own business, Masarap Box (Facebook, Instagram) that delivers a monthly box of Filipino snacks right to your door. The past three years made her realize what mattered to her. In 2021, she and her husband made a big decision to move with their two young daughters (aged five and two at the time) from California to the Philippines, where she’s originally from, to truly honor what they valued most- which was to spend more quality time with family. Now back in the Philippines, her husband has also recently launched C-Suite Jiu-Jitsu (Facebook, Instagram), a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Training Center, and Samantha’s been able to work as an HR Consultant for Canadian and US firms, helping small to mid-size businesses with HR solutions- which also honors her professional values of serving others. With more flexibility in her schedule now, she’s been able to reconnect with her family, her friends, and most importantly, herself. Samantha and I first connected in 2018, when she dropped me a note after watching my TEDx Talk, and we’ve remained in touch since. Watching her career evolve over the past few years has been really fascinating, and it’s not every day that I cross paths with people who make the decision to let go of a well-paid, stable job to make such a big international move. I was really excited to get her onto the Career Relaunch® podcast so you can hear how she came to her decision. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch® listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Ebby & Flod – Giza Hazy – Letting Go Cora Zea – Faith in Aurora Scott Buckley – Jul Podington Bear – Infant Podington Bear – Satellite Bloom Podington Bear – Beautocracy Episode Interview Transcript Teaser [first ~15s]: That made me think, “What if I had whether a business or a career that gave me the flexibility to own my own time and be more intentional being able to spend more time with my kids, with my husband, reconnect with myself.” Joseph: Now, you and I haven’t spoken in a really long time until we hopped on this call a few seconds ago. I’ve got so many questions I want to ask you about your life in the Philippines and your career trajectory since we last connected, and how you came to the decision to move back to the Philippines. I’d love to just start by getting a sense of what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Can you also just tell me where exactly you are situated there in the Philippines? Samantha: [03:34] Yes. We could start with where we are in the Philippines. We live in a small city called Baguio City. This is actually where I pretty much grew up until we moved to California when I was in high school. But there’s a lot of things that I’m focused on right now, personally, in my life and my career. Personally, our family is about to hit our one year living in Baguio. We moved from California last year. And then, my husband and I have two small children, 5 and 2. They are definitely keeping us busy right now. Our eldest started kindergarten this year. She is doing ballet and Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Joseph: What a combination. Samantha: [04:18] I know, right? It’s pretty awesome. It’s pretty awesome! It’s a pretty good balance, right? My husband and I, now that we have a lot more time, we try to be more intentional to reconnect with each other. We have time to breathe and go on dates once a week, even if it’s just a coffee date for an -hour, and unplug. We have this rule to not talk about our to-do list for about an hour and just talk about something else, shows or whatnot. For me, personally, I also got to reconnect with my childhood best friend. I’ve known her literally since birth. Our dads have been college friends and we grew up together, and now we’re doing yoga every week. Aerial Yoga, which is very like something that I probably would not know in a million years that I would do as a hobby. But it’s pretty exciting, something to look forward to every week. That’s a little bit of my personal life. Career-wise, right now, I’m helping my husband build his jiu-jitsu business, which recently opened August of this year. He’s the instructor, but I’m managing the front and back-end operations of the business, which is exciting. And then, I am working to relaunch my Filipino snack subscription box business called “Masarap Box,” one that I started in the peak of the pandemic. I temporarily had to pause that and we could probably talk about that later. Just during our move, I had to pause it for a little bit, but expecting to relaunch it next year. And then, lastly, I’m still working as an HR consultant with actually two different firms, one based in Canada and one based in the U.S. Both jobs allow me to have this flexible schedule that I have right now. It’s pretty exciting right now here! Joseph: Super exciting! You and I actually haven’t spoken in months. Samantha: [06:03] Yes. Joseph: I just got an e-mail from you a couple weeks ago just as we were preparing for this. One of the things you mentioned there and I’d like to talk about this. Before we go back in time and talk about your career evolution, you mentioned you have reconnected with one of your childhood friends. I remember getting your e-mail, and that got me thinking a lot about friendship and adult friends versus childhood friends. Any major revelations for you as you’ve reconnected with her after all these years? Samantha: [06:29] Yes, hanging out with your childhood friends and people that you grew up with in grade school and high school brings out your immature self. I’m not saying one is better than the other. You have those more profound conversations with your adult friends. Although, I still have them with my childhood friends. But I truly get to be my immature self without fear of judgment, being with the people that I grew up with because they saw everything. They saw the good, the bad, the ugly, first heartbreaks, first boyfriends. It’s a different dynamic. Am so glad that I got to reconnect with most of them living here. Joseph: I know that you haven’t always been an HR consultant. You certainly haven’t been someone who has moved from the U.S. to the Philippines until now. This is your first big move back home. Can we just go back in time? Can you just tell us a little bit about your time as a child growing up in the Philippines, and what was life like for you there? Samantha: [07:29] I actually was born in Manila, which is more south of where Baguio City is. But then, we moved to Baguio City at 2 years old. So, I grew up here. I went to school here. I developed all of my childhood friends. All of my friendships are here, with all of my childhood friends. My childhood was pretty amazing. My dad is a doctor. He is a general surgeon but is also focused on cancer surgery. He’s still semi-retired, still doing that just to keep his routine going. My mom, at that time, was working in human settlements for the government. When we moved here to Baguio, she helped manage this corporation, this clinic. My dad and other doctors ran this clinic that is focused on occupational therapy. She was pretty much managing that business for a while when I was growing up. Then in my childhood, I have an older sister and a younger brother. My parents were intentional with creating those core memories per se, creating those memories for us as kids. We would travel all over the Philippines at least three times a year together with my childhood best friend, which I do yoga with now. Our families would truly go on trips together, and that’s always the highlight every year. Like, “Where are we going to travel to next?” Our family naturally just loves traveling. I was here until high school. A little background about my dad’s family and how we came to the states is my dad’s family was already set to go to the states in the 70s. He has four siblings, my grandparents, and they were all set to go. But then, my dad was still studying medicine when he was here, and he wanted to finish up and he was going to follow. Then, of course, he fell in love with my mom. They got married and he did not want to separate from us as a family. He wanted to petition us as a family. It was a long process. I didn’t know at that time that we were petitioned as early as the early ’90s and didn’t get approved until early 2000s. Joseph: To get a Visa to move to the United States. That’s what you’re talking about. Samantha: [09:39] To get our permanent residency to the U.S. It was tough for me because as you get older, you develop your friends and you’re settled here. At that time, I was in high school, and it was a hard move for me because I was questioning like, “Why? Why do I have to go? I could just go to school here.” Of course, at that time, I felt like I was forced. In hindsight, I understand now the intention behind it and I’m happy that my parents did that. Because they wanted to give me that opportunity, right? An opportunity that probably not a lot of people had, but I had. One thing that my dad told me is that he didn’t want me or my sister or my brother to resent them for not giving us the opportunity to try to live this life outside of the Philippines, and try to kind of go for the opportunities that we have there. Again, I’m glad now. I didn’t understand at the time as a high school, 16-year-old kid, right? But, yeah, that’s how we came to America! Joseph: Where did you guys first land and where did you grow up in the United States? What do you remember about that time? Samantha: [10:45] We officially moved there in 2004, but we got to go on vacation there prior. I would say a year beforehand just to do all the touristy things. I vividly remember, I was sad at that time. I didn’t get to go to my high school graduation, our flight was booked before. At that time, it was a big deal. We landed in San Francisco. We lived with my dad’s family at Sunnyvale. We lived there for a while. I had to jump right into it right away. My family really wanted me to kind of get acclimated right away. They had me like, “Hey, go to Community College. Go to De Anza.” I kind of signed up for whatever. I was already in the middle of the semester or that quarter. Whatever was available, I kind of signed up for it just so I have classes. I remember a culture shock in some ways for me because over here in the Philippines, everything is very accessible. At least in Baguio, you could walk everywhere. You could hail a cab wherever you’re at. In California, you got to have a car. Joseph: You got to drive everywhere. Samantha: [11:50] Yeah. It will take you hours before you get to your final destination because of all the bus stops. That was one of the big adjustments for me. I definitely like having friends. I developed friendships over there as well, and people gave me rides. But it was nerve-wracking having to get my driver’s license and all of that because I never thought I needed to drive to get anywhere. It was rough moving from the Philippines to over there. At that time, my dad was also still working in the Philippines. So our family were kind of separated a little bit. It was also, with my immaturity at that time, that I was just so focused on “I don’t see my friends, I don’t have any friends here.” Eventually, I’m a naturally outgoing person and I started working. You know, working part-time and going to school and kind of just got acclimated, I would say within two years. Yeah, that’s a little bit about our move. Joseph: This is a career show, and I want to switch gears here a little bit. Can you describe how you decided to go down the path of retail management as your first chapter in your career? Samantha: [12:53] That was my first career. A lot of my experience before I became HR was in retail management. I honestly just kind of fell into it and vividly even remember getting my first seasonal part-time job at Victoria’s Secret. That was seasonal part-time. I didn’t even have interview clothes at that time. I just found out they had a group interview. I bought my interview clothes that same day and went to the interview and got it. I, again, didn’t think I was going to be in retail for a long time. I just thought it was just going to be a college job. But then, I was fortunate enough to have amazing leaders who invested in my development. I was at Victoria’s Secret waiting for them to either lay me off and tell me, “Hey, your seasonal job is over.” But then, I got a promotion within I would say less than a year to be a team leader. That’s kind of what jump-started everything and it just kind of grew with Victoria’s Secret until I became in operations, or what they call “category manager” at that time. I was in there for probably about three years. After college, again, I feel like I only knew retail. I felt the confidence to apply at Target, or actually, I got recruited at Target. But then, I went forward to apply to first be an HR manager. It was more of an HR generalist role at Target after college. But then, they put me in multiple roles for my own personal development as well. I was holding multiple management roles in operations in HR while I was at Target. As you may already know, working retail makes you work crazy hours. For so many years, I pretty much missed all the holidays. At that time, it didn’t matter to me because I didn’t have kids yet. Joseph: Let’s talk about this for a second. The life of someone working in retail. I don’t know if I told you this, Sam, but I had a brief stint in retail myself when I was living in Honolulu, Hawaii at the Ala Moana Shopping Center, which is this big outdoor mall there on the island. I was working on the women’s floor in the shoe department helping women find a pair of shoes. I was in my early 20s at the time, and I loved that job because I got to meet a lot of people and cross paths with folks when they were generally pretty relaxed and in a good mood. But at times, I felt customers could be a bit condescending at times to people like me working on a store floor, folding sweaters. You know what I’m talking about? Samantha: [15:20] Yes. Joseph: Where people think, “Oh, this is just a part-time temporary job for you,” or “You’re serving them.” Samantha: [15:26] Yes. Joseph: I guess this happens in service-based industries, too. I’m just wondering what was your experience like working in retail? Samantha: [15:35] Honestly, I probably felt that one time during Black Friday. I’m sure everyone knows how crazy Black Friday could be. I feel like that’s a really big misconception. To this day, I feel like as an HR manager and as a recruiter, when I’m doing recruiting projects, I have a little bit of a bias for retail workers because I know that they are the hard-working people that I know because they manage multiple projects during a crazy store, meeting all types of metrics while keeping the store afloat, and managing their team. I feel there’s so much more to that, and I’ve learned a lot of great leadership skills working in retail. There is still that stigma at that time, or I don’t know if it still does now, but I think that that’s a big misconception because I feel like you could get great leaders, recruiting from retail, from someone who has worked in retail management. I’m happy to advocate for them. Joseph: Definitely. A lot of times when you are working in retail, on the floor at least, you are directly interfacing with customers in a way that people back in the corporate head office may not be. You’re literally representing the brand. Samantha: [16:53] Absolutely. Joseph: A couple questions for you here. One is just trying to get a sense of how you were feeling about your career in retail, and also at what point did you feel like that schedule was no longer going to be sustainable for you in your life? Samantha: [17:09] When I didn’t have kids, I was just in that mode of I just needed to do my best and work my way up as much as possible. I was driven. I was driven to succeed. I wanted to get to the highest management level as possible at that time. Those were my priorities. I felt like it was an investment. It was an investment of like, “I’m working all of these hours right now. It will all pay off once I get the money and get the fancy position.” It took a toll on me when I had my daughter in 2017, my eldest daughter. Because with holidays like Christmas Eve, I didn’t leave the store until 4:00 in the morning, and my daughter missed Christmas Eve! I knew that long-term that I did not want my daughter or any future kids that I had to miss those holidays because that’s building that core memory for my kids. I’m not going to be able to take that back if I continued working retail. Development-wise, the company developed me as a leader, as a person. But my priorities have shifted when I had my firstborn. Joseph: It’s kind of funny because our daughters were born at the same time. My daughter was also born in 2017. Once you had your firstborn, at what point did you decide you needed to make a change? Samantha: [18:32] I started having anxiety when I have my closing shifts. I felt like I was very short-tempered, lack of sleep. At the same time, you have a toddler who doesn’t sleep through the night. I feel like I’m doing my daughter a disservice of not being the best and available mom for the very little time frame that we have together. I knew I needed to make that change, and I knew that if we were going to have more kids that it cannot move forward with that schedule. In 2018, that’s how I came across your TED talk, which inspired me to make that career change. I saw that as a sign because I didn’t know where to start. You said earlier, there’s this stigma that when you’re in retail, you kind of just settle for that and it’s hard to get out of it. I felt that way. I felt like, “What do I do next? Retail is all I know.” But then, I saw your TED talk, and that’s really what jumpstarted. Me being that motivated to start actively looking. I even messaged you and thanked you, “Hey, this is the push I needed!” Joseph: Right. That was how we first connected. Samantha: [19:37] That was when we first connected. A few months after that, I got an offer. That was when I kind of gave up. I started applying. Before I gave up, I just updated my LinkedIn profile. This company was the one who reached out to me. I got an offer from this construction and development company to be their HR business partner overseeing the Northern California Division. It’s exciting for me because like, “Oh, it’s my first 9-to-5 job, and I’ve never worked a 9-to-5 job before.” It was all exciting and new to me at that time. It was in that role for about 3 and 1/2 years until again, we made this move here in Baguio. Joseph: Okay. I want to get to that move in a moment. But before we do, you mentioned something there about applying to jobs and not getting the positive response that you had hoped to get, at least initially. This is a pretty common dynamic that comes up with people where they are in a role and they are starting to think about making a change. They start applying for other roles that they think are more promising, but they don’t end up getting the traction they want, at least initially. How did you know that you were on the right track in spite of the fact that you weren’t getting the traction that you were hoping to get at the very start? Samantha: [20:56] At that time my goal was just get out of retail. Whatever translates to getting out of retail that gives me a better schedule, I was so focused on that. As I continue to apply, I wanted to think long and hard, “Okay, what do I value?” Kind of seeing that connection of, “What am I good at?” But then, “What also aligns with the next step of my career in my professional life?” Being in retail management, I had that passion for being in the service of others. For me, the biggest reward is being able to see someone grow in their career. I know at Target at the time, whenever people ask me what my biggest accomplishments are, is being able to be a part of someone’s growth. I was able to promote team leaders into the next role, which is at the time being an assistant manager, prepped them for interviews, really being that strategic partner for team members. At the same time, also being that partner to managers. Being in retail management, you have to be that kind of that the balance of advocating for employees, but kind of advocating for the business as well. That kind of got that lightbulb moment for me. Like, “Oh, I would love to be an HR business partner and be that strategic partner for a company that also truly values their team.” That’s kind of what narrowed down my search at that time. Joseph: You identify this path. You end up moving into an HR business partner role. I’m assuming things are working pretty well for you professionally. How did things end up ultimately transpiring for you during this specific chapter in your career? Samantha: [22:40] It was definitely a great role. I learned a lot. But really what kind of made us transition again is COVID. We hear a lot about the great resignation. A lot of things happened in 2020, for us and our family on top of COVID. In 2020, we had our second child. At that time, we kept getting asked, “When are you going to buy a house now that you have two kids? Your family is getting bigger.” The interest rates at the time was at its lowest, right? It’s time to jump in. What was going on just at that time that was happening, my husband and I started becoming more stressed out at work. My husband was working for the county at that time as a — they called them “eligibility services technicians.” Basically, they are the ones reviewing and approving government assistance and aid, which got stressful in 2020 when many businesses shut down. A lot of people are following up on their aid. Backlog of calls are happening because everyone wants to get their aid as soon as possible. It was a stressful time for him. It was a stressful time for me working as an HR business partner with COVID is in its infancy at that time. There were so many unknowns. As HR, you have to keep up with all the ever-changing safety guidelines. It was honestly a recipe for burnout. I hope if you have other HR professionals listening right now, I hope I get an “Amen” from them and hope they can relate. At the time, I kept hearing HR’s getting burned out. There’s no HR for HR. Joseph: Absolutely right. Yeah, who’s helping you guys help the other people who are coming to you because they’re stressed out and trying to deal with all their different challenges? Samantha: [24:21] Yeah, that was one of the elements as well that kind of made us think hard. Again, going back to our priority with our little kids. We’re stressed out at work. Our kids are in day-care, 12 hours a day. You know, again, we felt guilty. We felt like we were being unfair to our kids at that time. Because A, they already spent time in day-care for more than 12 hours, probably, a day. By the time that we get home, we have a solid three hours to spend time with them until we have to do it all over again. And B, we would feel very wiped out after work. We felt like we were just not being the best version of ourselves. We’re not being intentional parents, being just wiped out at work by the time that we get home with the kids. We just kept feeling like we were running on autopilot. From getting your sleepy kids at six in the morning and doing all over again. By the time weekends hit, we’re either tired or we have to force ourselves to make these memories for our kids. Take them to the park, take them to whatever. But we only have those two days, right? It just felt like it wasn’t sustainable, for our family, at least. Joseph: You mentioned picking up your kids at the end of the day, where I’m guessing you didn’t have a ton of energy left after having a full workday. Samantha: [26:39] Yes. Joseph: When you think back to those days, what kind of parent did you catch yourself being during those events? Did you notice anything? Samantha: [25:21] I was probably like — I wouldn’t say an angry parent, but I would snap pretty fast and I felt bad. We were definitely screen-time parents. If we didn’t have time to deal with it, “Here’s your iPad. Here’s your phone.” I just need a minute to myself being like a headspace where I’m not thinking about work and not stressed out about what’s the next meal we would order in. We probably had food delivery almost every day because I didn’t have the energy to cook. I go for convenience. If it gets delivered. If I don’t have to go out of my way. I would put in the order before I drive home. By the time I get home, it’s delivered. Groceries are also delivered. I was that type of parent. Whatever’s convenient, I will invest in that. Good thing we were in a good financial place at that time. To me, that time is that investment. It saves me time. We invested in laundry. Not having to do our own laundry because we wanted that time back for our kids. Joseph: You’re trying to stay afloat. You’re trying to give yourself some time. Sometimes, delegating is really the only way you can do it. Around this time, you also decide that you are going to launch your own business. What motivated you to venture into the world of entrepreneurship and being a small business owner? Samantha: [27:08] I was starting to miss home. Because my husband and I usually would visit the Philippines at least every two years. And because of COVID and the restrictions, we didn’t have that capacity to do that. It was also during the time that I was still pregnant with my second and I was craving Filipino food. Even living in California, I feel like Filipino food is easily accessible. Of course, the stuff that I was craving, growing up in the Philippines, are the ones that are hard to find. That kind of made me think, “Oh, I wonder how many people else out there, even living outside of California, Filipinos out there, working professionals there, are probably feeling the same way that I’m feeling. Kind of just missing those nostalgic Filipino snacks from our childhood in the ’90s, or early 2000s. I started researching, and at that time, there were some other businesses that were doing kind of like gift box, Filipino gift boxes, as well. But it was still very new. I didn’t see a lot of businesses and I’m like, “Well, a lot of those businesses, they’re featuring their own products.” Versus for me, it’s sourcing those products from the Philippines, which ended up evolving, connecting with different business owners. I ended up also featuring some of their Filipino food products in my boxes, which was a great opportunity to connect with the Filipino-American community across the United States. That’s really how it started. It’s just my own personal kind of cravings. I was like, “Oh, what if I do this?” I kind of wanted to test it out. And by December, before our move, my husband and I were packing 60 boxes before we had to leave. Joseph: You’re doing it yourself? Samantha: [28:53] Yeah, we were doing it ourselves. It was really, truly a test run. It was just, honestly, also a distraction for me. I felt like I was losing myself in a sense that, “Hey, I don’t have any hobbies.” I pretty much just go to work, go home, be a mom. I wanted something for myself. And that’s kind of what also jumpstarted me to start this business. Joseph: Okay, so you have started Masarap Box, which is what this is called, where you’ve got Filipino snacks that you are selecting and delivering to people. What triggered you to then start to consider making another move at this point in your career? Samantha: [29:31] I just felt like, “Oh, there’s opportunity for me to be able to either run my own business or own my own time.” I didn’t know that I could be — I don’t say successful, but semi-successful or at it, to get the response that I did at that time when I launched Masarap Box. That made me think, “Oh, what if I had whether a business or a career that gave me the flexibility to own my own time and be more intentional with, again, my time. Being able to spend more time with my kids, with my husband, reconnect with myself, right?” I felt like I was myself again, and I had this “baby” that I owned, that I truly owned. That is really what jumpstarted me and my husband thinking. We kept entertaining the idea of moving to the Philippines. We’ll have easy access to food, and I feel like where I grew up is a good city in Baguio. It’s a good city to raise my kids in. Overall, that’s kind of what made us think a lot until we took action, but that’s kind of what jumpstarted that thought. Joseph: Now, on the one hand, this sounds great. You get to reconnect with family, long lost childhood friends. You get to reconnect with the culture you were once a part of. What most concerned you about making this sort of a move at this point in your life and your career? Samantha: [30:53] The biggest fear or concern that I had was letting go of all the investment that I put in myself in my career. I went for my master’s. I went to school. I felt like I worked hard, worked long nights, worked so many hours to get to where I am now with my position and my pay, right? What if I made the wrong decision, and I come here and I don’t find a job? There’s just so many unknowns at that time. I was just thinking of all the “what ifs.” Like, “What if I fail? What if this is the wrong move?” It was also letting go of my past career because I felt I’ve created this career for myself. Letting that go and starting over was definitely a big concern for me. But then, thankfully, my husband kind of led me back to the bigger picture. Then, how’s your mental health, right? Is it worth it? Is it worth it that you’re staying in this job? Yes, you’re making this great pay, but does it align with how we want to raise our family and how we want our kids — what childhood do we want them to grow up in? What do we want them to experience when they look back at their childhood, what would we want them to say? We want to be those present parents. That was really the defining moment for me. “Okay, this is definitely should be the right decision because this is for our kids as well.” Joseph: It sounds like, Sam, you’re thinking about your kids. You’re thinking about the impact your job was having on your kids. Was there a particular moment that, ultimately, tipped the scales for you guys where you said, “Okay, we’ve got to make this move back to the Philippines. This is the right moment for this sort of a transition in our lives and in our careers.”? Samantha: [32:42] We were saying, “Okay, we are going to go to jobs that we are stressed out about, paying for a home that is probably something that we couldn’t afford, or maybe we could afford, but we’re barely getting by. Or, can we use that money for this move and have a better quality of life?” That was truly when we could say, “Okay, we could do this because I’m.” I have a little bit of type A in me. Whereas, I need to see it and what we need to do and how much will that cost. It’s still good for me to kind of see something measurable, and how are we going to get there, and what the sub path looked like. So we really put that pen to paper. Once we saw the numbers and we saw everything, “Okay, we could do this.” Joseph: Well, there is a book called the “Power of Regret” that I’m reading right now by Daniel Pink. Samantha: [33:27] Oh, I love Daniel Pink! Joseph: Yeah. One of the four major regrets that people have at the end of their life or even midlife is a boldness regret where they don’t do something bold. Samantha: [33:40] That’s part of it, too. It’s like, “Okay, if I’m not going to make it now, am I going to regret it later?” Retail really helped me find of made me learn, “Yeah, fail fast.” Because in retail, you fail fast on a lot of things. I kind of apply that in my real life. I’m like, “Well, what’s going to happen if I fail? I’m not going to know until I know and I jump into it.” Joseph: Before we get to your time back in the Philippines, can you take me back to the moment when you and your husband, and your two young daughters hopped on the plane? On your way to the Philippines, as you guys took off from San Francisco, what was running through your head? Samantha: [34:18] There was a lot of anxiety and excitement. Getting dropped off at San Francisco with two restless children, while dragging our luggage and two big car seats was definitely the first hurdle. Joseph: Yes. Any trip with young children . . . Samantha: [34:36] That was definitely the first hurdle. Yes. That was the biggest hurdle for us. Did we pack enough snacks? And then, the next hurdle is when we checked in to get our tickets. Joseph: This is December 2021, right? Samantha: [34:48] Yes. Joseph: Okay, so this is about two years into the pandemic. Still lots of travel restrictions and entry requirements. Samantha: [34:55] Yes! We’ve heard stories and we witnessed it while we were checking in that there were some people that were not able to get on the plane because they didn’t take an RTPCR test 24 hours before. Because there was an easy miss if you look at that checklist on the website. Joseph: Very confusing, yeah. Samantha: [35:12] It was very confusing. At the time, there were still quarantine requirements. We had the quarantine with two small children in the hotel room before we got picked up after quarantine and we finally made it to Baguio. That was when we were able to have that big sigh of relief. Like, “Okay, we did it. We made it with two small children. Now, it’s where do we start and where do we go next?” Joseph: Was there a point where you felt like this had gone from being something unknown to the right decision for you and your family? Samantha: [35:47] Is when I hear my eldest saying, “Oh, today was a good day. I really like the Philippines. I don’t want to go back to California.” When we asked her, “Why don’t you want to go back to California?” It’s like, “Well, because Mommy and Daddy gets to spend more time with me.” That like, “Oh, my gosh!” I was bawling my eyes out! That was the defining moment for us where we knew that even as a 5-year-old, she could tell the difference of having stressed-out parents to having more present and intentional parents. That happened within less than a year, right? Kids will always tell the truth. They would never put a filter on anything, and I think that was the defining moment for me for sure. Joseph: Did you notice anything about yourself? The Sam back in the Philippines versus the Sam in the Bay Area. Just on a day-to-day basis, how you felt, anything you noticed about yourself during that first year back there? Samantha: [36:46] It was weird. I felt weird at first. Because Bay Area Sam is always on the go. Like, I would feel weird if I slow down. “What’s next?” Or we have downtime, we could check this off our list while we have time. Versus over here, I get to slow down. I get to reconnect with myself and it’s refreshing to have some time for myself as well because you need that. As a mom, as a wife, and just as a person, to reconnect with yourself and being able to kind of have something that you call your own. For me, that’s being able to spend time with friends, having yoga, or anything that I only do for myself. Not because selfishly, but it’s just helped me feel a human being again. Yes. I feel like I’m the more laid-back Sam in the Philippines versus California Sam. Joseph: I can’t help but think about myself as a parent as you’re describing these stories to me. Because I do sometimes feel guilty if I’m just taking a moment for myself to just do something for me. I don’t know why. Why do you think that is? As a parent that that’s so hard to give yourself permission to do that. Samantha: [37:57] It’s so funny because that’s what me and my husband were just talking about a few days ago. It’s hard because you missed your kids. That’s why you feel guilty. But, at the same time, I feel like for you to be able to be at your best for your kids, you have to be your best self first in however way you need to — I wouldn’t say disconnect, but channel that or cope with that. You have to have some type of way to cope with life because you are still a human being, and you need that reminder that you still need that. You have your own needs as well. However way you do that, whether it’s yoga, whether it’s working out, whether it’s taking a walk, that makes a difference and put you in a better headspace, and be available and ready for your kids. There’s always going to be that guilt. It’s because you miss your kids, right? You need time away from them, but the moment that you get time away from them, you miss them right away. It’s just going to be an ongoing challenge as a parent. Joseph: I do want to talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way during your move back to the Philippines. I am curious to hear what has been the most surprising thing about returning there. Samantha: [39:13] Living in Baguio City, even though traffic is probably worse from years ago, I feel like you could still get to where you need to go within 20 minutes. I feel like that takes back a lot of your time. You could be intentional with your time depending where you’re located. It plays a big deal. If you’re doing this two-hour commute at work, there’s so much you can do living in a smaller city, within two hours that you probably won’t have living in California. The time, how much I could do in a day. Because again, it’s such a small city and everything is still accessible. That’s what surprised me is how much time you could take back. Joseph: As you leave a city like San Francisco, which sort of I guess on the outside and even on the inside when you’re living there, feels like this city of opportunity and growth, and a lot of the tech companies are there. Well, I’ve got clients sometimes, or cross paths with people who are about to make a move away from a big city, which feels like the place to be, with a lot of opportunity to then move to a smaller city or away from the “professional scene.” Did that run through your head? And if so, what advice would you give to the Samantha who was pondering whether to move away from a city like San Francisco? Samantha: [40:34] Manage your expectations and do your research. Another thing too is, you know, how it was when I was a kid is probably not the same. There are probably some similarities, except that there are some things that you’re probably going to have to address to. Managing those expectations is very important. Really knowing what you value the most. Yes, there’s all of these things, but does that align with your values? Or how big will that impact your personal or professional values if you were to move there? As long as you know what you value the most, which in my case is being able to spend time with my kids, everything else is secondary. Joseph: Well, that’s a great segue, Sam, into the last thing I want to talk with you about before we wrap up, which is just a couple questions about the lessons you’ve learned along the way. And then, we can talk a little bit about what you’re up to right now. What’s something that you’ve learned about yourself moving away from the Philippines to work in the U.S. for many years, and now returning to the Philippines? Samantha: [41:33] One thing that I’ve learned about myself is that I needed to slow down. I just felt I was not being productive or I always felt restless. If I wasn’t doing anything, if I wasn’t keeping myself busy, slowing down helped me see things more clearly and speed up the process. One thing that I learned about myself, that I was going too fast and that’s slowing down is not a bad thing. Joseph: What is something that you now know about career transitions that you wished you had known in the past? Samantha: [42:11] The advice I would give myself is to be bold. This is probably cliché to hear, but life is short. But it truly is. The exciting part begins when you surrender to the unknown, even if it means that you might fail in some areas along the way. If you’re just kind of settling because you’re too afraid to fail, it’s better to just fail fast so you could learn faster and move forward. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing now. You mentioned this at the beginning of our conversation that your husband started some jiu-jitsu lessons. It sounds like your daughter is benefiting from this right now also alongside her ballet. Can you tell me a little bit more about C-Suite Jiu-Jitsu? What is that? Samantha: [42:50] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. C-Suite Jiu Jitsu is Brazilian jiu-jitsu lessons that we offer for kids as young as 5 through 16 years old, to adults as well. We also have women’s self-defense classes. Virtually, anyone in any size, as long as you know the right techniques, you’re able to escape from someone attacking you, whether they’re 100 pounds bigger than you. There are some ways to combat that. I feel like it’s a good life skill to have. My husband, Benjamin Agustin, is the one running it. He’s the one teaching all the classes. I am running the operations. We just started this year but been having a lot of great feedback from people and there have been a lot of great signups, which is very exciting. Joseph: In college, I very briefly took jiu-jitsu myself. Samantha: [43:41] Oh, nice! Joseph: I didn’t make it past white belt because I just didn’t have as much time in college. I was so caught up with my pre-med studies at the time. I feel like if there were one martial art I’d want our daughter to learn, it would be jiu-jitsu. Just because it’s so practical to everyday life and self-defense. Whatever happened to Masarap Box? What’s the current status of that business for you? Samantha: [44:04] There were a lot of unexpected things that I didn’t anticipate with our suppliers. And just the cost, we are trying to reassess what would be a better value for everyone. I’m sorting that through right now. I just thought it was best for us to pause shipments this year, but something’s brewing, and I am working on rebranding it for next year. So, stay tuned. Hopefully, I get to update you as soon as we get that live again. Joseph: If people want to learn more about C-Suite Jiu Jitsu, or if they want to keep up with what’s happening with Masarap Box, where can people go? Samantha: [44:41] At least for C-Suite Jiu Jitsu, we are most active on Facebook and Instagram. If you just look up our handle, @csuitejiujitsu. For Masarap Box, @shopmasarapbox, mainly on Instagram. Yes, if anyone wants to learn more about just me personally and wants to shoot me a message or have any questions about my story or about career transitions, they could also easily look up my name on LinkedIn as well. That would be Samantha Tovera Agustin. Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sam, for telling us about your life as an HR consultant and business owner. How you managed your transition from the Philippines to the U.S., then back. Also, the importance of just getting clear on your priorities and values along the way of your career journey. Best of luck with C-Suite Jui Jitsu, Masarap Box, your HR consulting work, and also your life there in the Philippines. I hope it all continues to go well for you. Samantha: [45:37] Thank you so much, Joseph. Thank you again for having me today.

When you figure out where to take your career, you shouldn’t feel like you have to chase after it right away. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 89, Kessler Bickford, a former magazine editor turned psychotherapist, discusses the challenges of deciding where you take your career when you have multiple interests and the distinction between identifying and actually pursuing your passion. We also talk about the importance of timing when making a career pivot, and during the Mental Fuel® segment, I also reveal the impact moving at different speeds in my own career had on my overall professional trajectory. Key Career Takeaways Not knowing exactly where you belong professionally is okay and totally normal. Sometimes, you just have to trust your gut to guide you. Even if you know there’s something you’re meant to do, there’s a balance between going after it and waiting until you’re fully ready to make the leap. Timing is key. You likely have more than one gift inside you. It takes some courage to decide exactly where you ultimately want to direct your energies then go for it with everything you’ve got. Just like fit matters when you’re choosing a place to live or even a pair of shoes to buy, our overall job satisfaction has a lot to do with fit. Be patient with your moves. Don’t let fear run the show. Resources Mentioned We mentioned the Sept 2022 WSJ article, The Next Pandemic: Anxiety Over Life Itself The 13 best books for managing anxiety, according to psychologists– Business Insider, Oct 2022 How to use anxiety to your advantage– BBC, Oct 2022 Kessler also mentioned the importance of working with a professional therapist when trying to tackle struggles related to anxiety or shame. Your Guide to Getting the Most From Online Therapy from Everyday Health could be a helpful way to get a lay of the land. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance identifying one initiative, project, or move in your career that you feel really eager to get done right away. Take a moment right now and reflect on what’s at stake and what might happen if you slowed down just a bit. Do you need to pursue this specific goal at this very moment? Or is it something that could wait? At least for a bit? What would that cost you? How would it benefit you? Consider how slowing down might influence your ultimate chances of success. About Kessler Bickford, Anxiety Therapist Kessler Bickford is a psychotherapist running her own private practice who specializes in treating patients struggling with anxiety using a modality called Intensive Short-term Dynamic Psychotherapy. However, she began her career working for over a decade as an editor for Chesapeake Family Life magazine. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Summer Rain Sappheiros – Embrace Guy Copeland – Agrotis Infusa Podington Bear – Celadon Alan Ellis – Sea Terms Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising Episode Interview Transcript Teaser [first ~15s]: I needed to do some unfinished work in myself. I needed to live more before I could really speak into someone else’s life. I wasn’t ready. I thought I was. But, looking back, I couldn’t have done this the way I do it now. There wasn’t a chance. Joseph: Hello, Kessler. It is good to talk with you again. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Kessler: [02:23] Thank you, Joseph. It’s really fun to do this. Joseph: First of all, before we get started, how’s everything going with you? Are you doing okay? Kessler: [02:28] Yeah. Life is good. Being a parent just supersedes everything because your happiness this like contingent on how your child is doing. Joseph: I should probably say that you and I haven’t spoken in a while. So, this is actually going to be a little bit of a catch-up for you and I also. I was wondering if we could just start by getting a sense of what’s been keeping you busy right now in both your professional life and also your personal life. Kessler: [02:57] I am a wife and I am a mother of a 10-year-old boy, as well as a psychotherapist. All that is always moving the speed of light and at the same time. It’s the balancing act. It’s settling into parenting, and then it’s settling into my professional life, and there’s a lot of sort of stop-and-start there. Joseph: I’ll bet. I am also a parent, and I can understand how it’s really hard to have any stretch of time to do anything continuously. Let’s take those one at a time. You mentioned you’re a psychotherapist. Can you just give a snapshot of what you do, what you focus on, and what your approach is? Kessler: [03:42] With your help, I found my branding. My specialty is treating anxiety. That is something I’ve studied extensively and have certification in. So many other issues connect with anxiety. While I’m helping people with anxiety, I’m also helping them with emotional issues and other things like that. Joseph: Just so we’re all kind of on the same page, when you use the term “anxiety” in a clinical sense, can you just explain in layperson’s terms what exactly do you mean by that? What are the types of people who you might typically see in your practice? Kessler: [04:20] There are four different levels of anxiety, and they’re very different. Some anxiety might not bother you. As anxiety gets higher and higher and creeps up to sort of the second third and fourth level, it becomes harder to manage and certainly creates more sort of physical disruptions in your body and disruptions in your life, and it becomes pretty serious. I’m helping people learn how to regulate anxiety that goes to a point where it’s so high, it’s affecting the cognitive ability as well as sort of creating a lot of physical symptoms, too. Joseph: We will probably get into more details into how you became a psychotherapist as we go along this conversation. I also want to touch on the family life piece of it because as you mentioned, you are a mother, and that plays into the balance between work and the rest of your life. Could you just give a snapshot of how you balance the two, and how much one affects the other? Kessler: [05:25] It’s kind of miraculous. I’m not sure sometimes how I made a day go by when I look back on the day. Because I’m in private practice, I can set my schedule. That allows me to tailor the time I need and carve that out for my son or family things, and then move my clients around that. That’s such a blessing of being in private practice or working for yourself is you have that kind of flexibility and can put family first, which is what I do. Joseph: Before we go back in time to talk about your previous profession, what’s it like having a 10-year-old son at home? Kessler: [06:08] He’s in fourth grade and he has just a ton of personality. He’s very sweet but someone once asked me how’s motherhood. I said, “You know, there’s nothing like having your own personality used against you.” Joseph: Right. Kessler: [06:26] Because he looks just like my husband, but he has my temperament. Joseph: I see. I’ve always thought it might be interesting as someone who is a psychotherapist to think about your children, their temperament, and their approach to life. It must influence your perceptions of your child and also inform your approach to parenting. Would you say that’s a fair statement? Kessler: [06:49] I think it is fair. That doesn’t mean it’s a winning approach because I’m just human, and I’m at it with my fears and projections. The tricky thing is separating yourself from your child and realizing you’re two totally different people, and how you see something and feel about something is not the way they do. This allows them to have their own experience, their own personality separate from your own. That is something that’s I think hard for so many parents. It’s just accepting your child for the personality that they have that’s different from yours. Joseph: I can completely relate to that. As you know, I’ve got a 4-, coming up on 5-year-old daughter. I do catch myself sometimes almost saying something along the lines of, “Well, when I was a kid…” This, and I just got to stop myself. I can feel myself tempted to bring it up but I stop myself. Kessler: [07:48] Yeah. Joseph: I know you haven’t always been a psychotherapist, Kessler. I’d like to kind of switch gears and go back in time now. Would you mind just telling me what you were up to before you entered the world of therapy? I understand you spent quite a bit of time as an editor. Can you tell me a little bit about that chapter of your career? And then, we’ll go forward from there. Kessler: [08:06] I was a magazine editor for 12 years. I worked for a regional magazine that covered the Chesapeake regions of Maryland and Virginia and Delaware, and it was a lifestyle magazine. Before that, you know, mama was a rolling stone here. I had a lot of different careers. I was a wrangler on a dude ranch. I was a cleaning lady for a little while. I lived in the Bahamas for a while. I just didn’t know where I belonged. I was really lost. But, I knew I didn’t want to settle. I didn’t want to go into the corporate world just to check a box or have a job I didn’t love. I knew that if I didn’t love it, I was never going to be able to pull it off. I just sort of bided my time until my purpose came to me. Joseph: There are some quite very different roles in there. So, you said wrangler on a dude ranch, and then, eventually, become a magazine editor. How did you go from the former to the latter? I’m just kind of reading between the lines here but was it to try to maybe take more practical job on paper that kind of felt a little bit more stable? Or, what was the motivation behind going into being a magazine editor? Kessler: [09:23] I think I really realized I wanted to be a writer. I just had this life philosophy that even if you know there’s something inside you that you’re meant to do, if you touch it too soon, if you touch it when it’s not time, you could ruin it. What I mean by “ruin it” is if you’re not ready and you try it, the danger is you come out with a story that you failed. And so, this thing that you knew was inside you to do becomes this horrible story of failure, when the truth is is it just wasn’t time. So, you’ve got to wait for the time to be right. I think I was always just kind of waiting for it to be revealed to me what I really wanted to do, and then wait for the right time because they’re different. They’re two different things. Joseph: Were you feeling like editorial work just wasn’t doing it for you? How did you know that that wasn’t going to be your long-term professional calling? Kessler: [10:27] When I was in my early 20, I’d say 22, 23. I got the insight that I wanted to be a therapist. I was like, “Wonderful!” The purpose finally showed up. I can go for it, right? So, I went to my pastor at the time. I asked for a meeting with him and I said, “I think my purpose has shown up.” He said, “Well, wonderful! What is it?” I said, “Well, as a therapist.” He said, “Well, I would wait.” And, I said, “What?! Wait? Why?” He said, “Well, you just want to make sure that you’re ready for it emotionally, in maturity-wise, and if you want to make sure it’s time.” While at the time I thought, “Well, the nerve of him to discourage an effervescent, excited, young woman,” I thought there’s some wisdom there. So, I thought, “Okay. Well, I’m going to put it on the back burner being a therapist, and I’m going to go into the world of writing. If the urge to become a therapist comes back, if it shows back up after a while, I’ll pay attention to it then. But, for now, I’m just going to let it kind of germinate. For 12 years I was in the magazine world and it did come back. That feeling to go back and get a degree in therapy, and go into that part of me did come back. Joseph: If you wouldn’t mind diving into this concept of jumping into something too early, I think that could be interesting to talk about. You mentioned your pastor had mentioned, “Hey, don’t do this right now.” I’ve actually have been given a similar advice myself when I was thinking about going into coaching one day. I remember a coach I spoke to, he said, “Don’t do this yet.” What do you think is behind these people’s comments to dissuade people from jumping into their path of passion too “early”? What would be the downside of that? Kessler: [12:31] I think everything in life is motive. I can’t speak to what his motive was. For me, it wasn’t a malicious motive. It was a motive of making sure that I was ready. I needed to do some unfinished work in myself. I needed to live more before I could really speak into someone else’s life. The truth is, the human brain isn’t fully formed to your 24, 25, and I was 22, 23, so I wasn’t ready. I thought I was. Looking back, I couldn’t have done this the way I do it now. There wasn’t a chance. For me, it was really good advice. It wasn’t pleasant advice. It was tough advice to hear, but he was right. Joseph: What do you think that time as a magazine editor did for you or enabled you to do that you wouldn’t have otherwise been able to pull off when you started to make that transition into psychotherapy? Kessler: [12:36] People ask me that, “Well, what’s the connection?” It’s not a loose connection, it’s a very strong connection because as a writer, you’ve got to have the ability to step out of someone else’s story. When you’re interviewing them, in order to tell their story, you’ve got to remove yourself so that you can fully hear them and fully take in their experience so that you’re able to translate it onto paper. There was so much training and listening and asking questions that lead to deeper and more information for me, and removing myself from the equation so that it can be their moment, not mine. That was really part of my training in becoming a therapist. Joseph: Can we also talk a little bit about the transition itself? We’re talking about two at least seemingly different professions. Although, I know you mentioned there’s a very strong connection in the transferable skills that you developed. Can you just give a glimpse into what it was like to be working full-time as an editor while also pursuing this new path of being trained and credentialed to become a psychotherapist? Kessler: [14:50] I was the senior editor. The managing editor who worked under me, he and I changed jobs, swap jobs. He became the head of the magazine and I was the editor underneath of him. I didn’t have all that responsibility while I was going to graduate school. I think I did that for about a year. I went to school full time. I had a tremendous gift from my mother who supported me at that time so that I could go to school full-time and finish it as quickly as possible because I was 38. Joseph: Is that considered kind of late? Kessler: [15:35] I think for me, it felt late because I felt like a late bloomer. I wanted to be able to get right back into the job market as fast as I could. A lot of people go back to school right from college into a graduate or PhD program. Joseph: Let’s shift gears here then, Kessler. Let’s talk about your entry into becoming a full-time psychotherapist. Coincidentally, it’s not uncommon for me to cross paths with people who have been working in the corporate world have realized that they would rather have a more people-focused profession, and they do start to consider things like psychotherapy or going into clinical psychology. How do you go from studying clinical psychology to then eventually working as a psychotherapist? Can you just explain what path you followed and how did you land in the practice that you landed in? Kessler: [16:27] I found a practice I wanted to work in. I did my research and I identified a local practice in my hometown where I wanted to work. I called them and I said, “You know I’m about to graduate. I’d like to come talk to you about if you have any openings.” The owner of the practice said, “Well, you’re not fully licensed yet. I just can’t take you on. Call me when you’re fully licensed.” I just didn’t leave him alone. I hounded the poor man until he gave me a job. I just chased him until he’s, “All right, enough! Anything to get you to quit calling me.” I think it’s about identifying where you want to work and then just going for it. Joseph: How do you go about finding patients? Do they come to you? Do you proactively — “market” is kind of a strong word here, but kind of promote or kind of drive visibility for your practice? How do you go about finding your clients, your patients? Kessler: [17:26] When I first got out of grad school, I worked in a group practice, and now, I’m in private practice. The marketing is very different. In a group, they provide you with your clients a lot of times. In private practice, it’s solely up to me to go do my own marketing and find my own clients. Word of mouth always has the most legs. It always is the best way to go. Joseph: How was it for you? As you were part of that group practice, can you just give a sense of what your trajectory was there? How you were feeling about that? How that evolved for you? Kessler: [19:03] It was a great place to start. It was a great place for me to get my feet wet in the industry, to be around other therapists to see how they work, to have people to talk to other therapists to talk to when I had a break. That’s what I wanted in the beginning was to have that kind of community to build my confidence in. It wasn’t long before I realized like what I really wanted to do was go into business for myself. Joseph: Was there something in particular that was kind of nagging you about being part of a group practice versus branching off on your own that was triggering you to think, “Hey, I need to go start my own practice”? Kessler: [18:50] There are lots of problems when you get a bunch of therapists together. Joseph: Okay. I can imagine, yeah. Kessler: [18:58] How many jokes can we make up with that one? Therapists have all kinds of different modalities they use, right? There are tons of different ways to do therapy. I had my own training compared to their training. Sometimes it clashes, sometimes it works. But, for me, that was a little bit of a rub that we didn’t have the same kinds of therapy we did. That becomes disagreement on how to do therapy and the best ways to do therapy. While you can learn from each other, it’s nice to be around sort of more people are doing the same kind of therapy you’re doing. Also, your schedule is not your own when you work in a group, and neither is your rate. It’s set for you. Joseph: Let’s talk about your transition then, going from part of a group practice to branching off on your own to start your own solo practice. What was that like for you? that maybe let’s start off in the early days. How did you think it was going to go and then how did it actually go? Kessler: [20:03] It makes me remember when I first found you online. I thought, “If I’m going to go out on my own, I’ve got to have something that differentiates me from the other sea of therapists out there.” I found you online. I have this memory of sneaking out of the office, going to sit in my car, and having these secret telephone conversations with you. Joseph: I have recollections of that, also. Kessler: [20:29] You helped me prepare for my exit because you helped me think through who I wanted to be in private practice. Yes, it was a business decision, but it was also very much of a philosophy I was building with your help of who I wanted to be, how I wanted to be known, and really thinking through all that. So, I really thank you, by the way, that you gave me that education before I stepped out on my own. It made it very much less impulsive and much more deliberate. Joseph: That’s great. Here, I should probably say, just full disclosure, we have worked together professionally before where I guess, as you mentioned, when you were thinking about branching off on your own. You came to me and we talked a little bit about your branding and your positioning. Can you share a little bit about what was the best thing about branching off on your own, and what was the most challenging, just in the early days? Kessler: [21:28] The scariest part was, “Oh, my God! Where am I going to get my clients from?” Because they’ve kind of been fed to me. My boss was very kind and said to me, “You can whomever you’re seeing now, the clients we’ve given you now, you’re welcome to take them with you if you’d like.” So, he was very generous in that way. But, the nature of the therapy I do is short-term work. It doesn’t take many weeks or months for patients to sort of “graduate,” if you will, from their therapy. Which means I need other clients to be right on the heels to fill the space. Yes, I could take my old clients with me but where were the new ones going to come from? That was a real nail-biter for me. Joseph: How do you go about finding the patients? It’s kind of this ironic sort of system where if you’re doing your job well, I suppose, as a psychotherapist, it’s the same thing in coaching. Your patient’s not going to be your patient for very long because they’re going to get better. Kessler: [22:30] Right, yes. Joseph: And so, you kind of need this pipeline of patients. How do you go about doing that as a therapist? Kessler: [22:35] It is feast or famine. In the five years I’ve been on my own, I still haven’t been able to crack the code of why are some months great and others are crickets. I don’t mean crickets, I mean maybe four, five, six, seven people as opposed to 20. it goes up, it goes down; it goes up, it goes down. I don’t know the rhyme or reason. I’ve spent a lot of time I think driving myself crazy trying to find the “why.” I think a lesson there has been, for me, it does come back. When it’s slow, use that time to rest. Just don’t let the fear eat you up, that it’s not going to come back. Joseph: Yeah, that is an interesting point because one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Kessler, was about your life as a psychotherapist. Many people, they’re probably coming to you at their most desperate moments I’m imagining. They’re coming to you, you’re dealing with issues related to anxieties. You’re dealing with people who are struggling a lot with something. When they see you, they’re probably really needing some serious help. How do you maintain your own psychology and your own stability through it all? You mentioned having let’s say 20 patients at any one given time, I would imagine that’s somewhat emotionally and physically draining. Is that the case as a psychotherapist, do you feel the weight of the patients you’re working with? Or, do you just find a way to kind of separate yourself from that? I’ve always been really curious to hear about that straight from an actual psychotherapist. Kessler: [24:21] That hasn’t been a struggle for me because when you have hope for a patient, when they are highly invested in themselves and have the want, the will to meet their goals, I don’t worry about them. Because they’ve already decided they’re going to walk this road and they’re going to get to what they want. I also did some crisis work when I was in grad school as part of my grad school work, and that was very different. That was very draining for me because people didn’t always have the will or the want to get better. The sympathy would just pour out of you and that was draining. That’s a very different population. I think as long as I see that a patient has the will, the want, the drive to get to their therapy goals, I’m energized by that. Joseph: Well, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned through your transitions, I also just want to ask you about what you have found to be the most surprising aspect of shifting from being part of a group practice to now being someone who’s running your own practice. Kessler: [25:44] I still have a community that I’ve created with other therapists around me, and reached out and gotten to know them and have coffee and we meet for lunch. I can still have that community without having it in my office space. Something else I found very surprising is that we’ve got more than one gift in us. it takes some courage to put your eyes on that other part of you, that other gift because sometimes, it upsets the apple cart, right? Sometimes, it can upset your life when you do that because it brings some change. I do believe we all have more than one gift inside of us. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping I could talk with you about, Kessler, before we wrap up with what you’re focused on right now in your practice is just a few questions about the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. I was hoping we could start by getting a sense of if you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to making a major career change, what might that be? Kessler: [26:54] Don’t second guess your gut about timing and have the courage to listen to it. You might hear a “no,” and that might be hard to hear. That no is designed to protect you. It’s designed to keep that change, that direction, you want to go. It’s designed to keep it sacred and it’ll come. Just listen to your gut about the timing of it all. Joseph: I think sometimes we feel pressured, as quickly as possible, move on to that thing that we feel is really going to light us up and going to energize us, but to be patient with it, I suppose, if you can be. Kessler: [27:47] Yes. Be patient with it and just question it. Joseph: When you look back on your career change, Kessler, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Kessler: [27:58] I think don’t let fear run the show. It can cause a lot of hesitation. It can cause a lot of wasted time. Just go for it. If it’s the right time, just do it. Life’s too short to hesitate, to wait. Joseph: One more question for you here. Just having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way? Kessler: [28:24] Well, I was not a good student, okay. I have a little bit of a learning disability that was never identified. I wasn’t a great reader, focusing was hard for me. I didn’t come away with the experience that I was terribly bright. When I finally found my saying in life, I realized that I might not have a terribly high IQ, but I do have a high EQ. That was just something that wasn’t really valued by my family or at the time when I was growing up. I’m 53, by society either. I think it’s got much more clout now than it did when I was younger. I got to see myself finally as smart, capable, bright, gifted, and that’s not to toot my own horn. It was just I could see myself in a different way that I’d always wanted to. Finding your thing that you’re really meant to do will bring that out for you. Joseph: That’s a great point, Kessler. Sometimes, when you’re misplaced in the wrong profession, you can kind of mistakenly believe that you’ve got some issue and you’re just not able to do the job as well as you could or there’s something wrong with you because you’re not feeling energized by it. But you could just be completely in the wrong role and just not making the most of who you are and what you’re meant to do. Kessler: [29:57] That’s right. It’s not a failure, it’s a bad fit. You’re not a failure. Joseph: Absolutely. It’s like playing the wrong sport. Kessler: [20:04] That’s right. You just got to find the right fit. that goes for relationships. It goes for careers. It goes for a pair of pants. You just have to find the right fit. Joseph: I’d love to wrap up, Kessler, with what you’re focused on right now. I know we’ve touched on this, but can you just explain a little bit more about the focus of your practice on anxiety and shame, and the kind of help that you’re really excited about providing people that you work with? Kessler: [30:39] I have been a student of the concept of shame since I was about 20 when I first heard the word. I really sort of built my life on first getting a hold of myself, to be healed of my own shame. And then, who knew that it was going to turn into what I’d be giving people for the rest of my life in turn. There’s one thing that every single person I’ve seen from the beginning of my career as a psychotherapist, that people have in common is shame, some element of shame. This has really been my focus is helping people come out of that, and being able to forgive themselves, and just break free of that cage of shame. That is always something in the works for me. Joseph: I can’t let you go without actually asking you to maybe comment on this idea. I know before we hopped on this conversation, you actually shared an article in the Wall Street Journal with me that literally just came out before we recorded this. It came out in September 2022, and it was called “The Next Pandemic: Anxiety Over Life Itself.” You can imagine there are people out there who are probably listening to this, and maybe they’re dealing with a lot of economic uncertainty because of the unreal levels of inflation that are hitting people right now. We’ve got the war in Ukraine. We’ve got a lot of economic volatility. We’ve still got the pandemic that’s still in our hands. If somebody’s listening to this and they’re either struggling with anxiety or they are struggling with shame, I am aware this is probably case by case basis, but do you have any broad suggestion on where people can start to at least make some strides in managing that anxiety or managing the kind of shame that they’re feeling? Kessler: [32:43] It’s very hard to do on your own. I don’t think we were meant to do it alone. I think these are the issues that we were meant to do in a relationship with help. If you could do it alone, you would have already remedied the situation. It’s something we’re meant to do through a relationship. Make sure that you’ve got a therapist who is trained in anxiety regulation because it is a grossly misunderstood issue. I think not only in the therapy world but also in the medical world. You really want to have someone who is well trained and how to manage that. Joseph: Speaking of which, if there is someone out there who’s listening to this and wants to learn more about the topic of shame or anxiety, or find out more about the work you do as a psychotherapist for people struggling with these issues, where can they go? Kessler: [33:37] Well, thank you for asking. My website, which is my name, KesslerBickford, B-I-C-K-F-O-R-D.com. Joseph: We will be sure to capture that in the show notes. I just wanted to thank you, Kessler, for well reconnecting with me first of all after all these years. Telling us more about your life as a psychotherapist, your transition from a very different industry into the world of psychotherapy. also just sharing some of your thoughts and insights on this topic of anxiety. Best of luck with your practice. Thank you for all the work you’re doing to assist your patients and all the people out there struggling with the challenges they’re facing right now. Kessler: [34:16] Thank you, Joseph. It’s been fun.

What happens when the initial excitement of your new job starts to wear off? Or the work you’re doing becomes misaligned with the person you want to be? In episode 88 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Melody Mack, an neurodiagnostics business owner turned project manager shares her thoughts on managing your relationship with work, letting go of a business you created, and taking an honest look at who you are. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also share a glimpse into a few of the issues I seem to have dragged around with me from job to job. Key Career Takeaways Divorcing yourself from your professional identity is extremely difficult, which is one reason why saying farewell to your job can be so difficult. When the challenges and frustrations you’re feeling in your professional life seem to follow you from job to job, the issue may have more to do with you than your employer or work itself. While professional transitions and gaps in your CV can feel uncertain and stressful, those periods of transition are a part of the journey. Slowing down and taking the time to figure things out is not only okay but also necessary to make the right career choices moving forward. If you focus too much on what other people are saying, thinking, or doing, you can lose track of yourself. It’s important to stay true to yourself in order to feel at peace in your career. Tweetables When you blame and criticize others, you are avoiding some truth about yourself. Deepak Chopra Tweet This Resources Mentioned I talked briefly about Attribution Theory, which you can read more about here. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, my challenge to you was to take an honest look at one of the persistent issues you’ve been struggling with in your career for quite some time. How much of your work struggles are a result of the specific environment you’re in at this moment? How much of them actually have to do with you—your expectations, your beliefs, your blueprint of how things should be. Take 1 action over something you can control to help you manage those things you can’t control at this moment in your career. About Our Guest Melody Mack Melody Mack left a successful career in healthcare as a provider and business owner so she could  focus on project management in a different industry. One thing she’s learned is that working hard in a job that doesn’t give you joy is simply not sustainable. I caught Melody in the middle of her transition, and in spite of facing some tough challenges along the way, she’s still hopeful for the future. I first crossed paths with Melody when she sent me a note on LinkedIn after being a long-time listener of this podcast. She mentioned feeling burned out by her last job, the challenges of walking away from a lucrative role, and the complications of transitioning into something else–all universal challenges many career changers face. I was really excited to get her onto the show so she could share in her own words what I think is a very relatable career transition journey. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Melody know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow the Career Relaunch® podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Dog And Pony Show – Podington Bear Planet – Infraction Signal To Noise – Scott Buckley Temporary Stop – Jay Varton Ethereal – Punch Deck New Ambitions – Trevor Kowalski Rand Aldo – Open Atmos TV Show 2021 – Infraction Episode Interview Transcript Teaser: I had to recognize that I brought some of my bad habits that led to burnout and resentment in my last career into my new career that is also possibly why I’m not happy yet where I’ve landed. Joseph: Let’s get started by talking a little bit about what you’re up to at this moment. Can you just give me a glimpse into what’s been keeping you busy in your personal life and also your professional life? Melody: [02:29] Actually, this is the first time in 14 years that I haven’t been on-call in some capacity. So, my greatest joy is being able to not have my phone on me. I’m spending time reading and taking long walks, and I’ve even started taking cooking classes. In my career, I am a senior project management consultant for a small group out of Denver Colorado. My current contract is with a school district. I’m having a lot of fun working with some incredible people and learning every single day. That keeps me very much on my toes. Joseph: You mentioned that you were on-call a lot in your past life. We are going to get into more detail about your history in a moment. But what sort of things would you be on-call for? Melody: [03:26] I was working in two leadership roles. One as a provider in healthcare and one as a business owner. At any point in time, either there was a fire to put out for the business, or I was actually on-call to provide services for a hospital. Joseph: The other thing I wanted to ask you about is just like personally, you said you’ve got a little bit of space for hobbies right now and to kind of have a little bit of breathing room. What are you enjoying doing in your free time right now? Melody: [03:54] Naps are great. Joseph: It never hurts, yeah. Melody: [03:59] Reading. I’ve been looking for new opportunities to learn something that I haven’t done before. A lot of it is interjected with just fun. For example, there’s an event in a couple of weeks where there’s an outdoor movie being shown, but they’ll also have goats running around. Things like that that are a little outside of the norm, but something that will just be fun. I had lost a little bit of joy in my career. And now, I’m just seeking new opportunities and having fun. Joseph: Very good to hear. Okay. Well, let’s talk about your past and let’s talk about your previous career chapters. You have not always been a senior project manager. Could you tell me a little bit about your time back in the day when you were working in neurodiagnostics? And then, we can move forward from there. Melody: [04:52] Well, I got a great opportunity 14 years ago to apply to be an interoperative neuromonitoring technologist, which is a healthcare technology position where you work in the operating room monitoring brain and spine. I got that opportunity without having a graduate degree, which was a dream for me to be in healthcare. It required a lot of calls, a lot of travel, and a lot of agility. But along the way, I got a chance to co-found a company with one of my bosses. And, that’s where that second role came in where I was working as a provider, but I also co-founded a neurodiagnostics company. It was exciting. It was something I never thought I’d get a chance to do, but it was good old-fashioned hard work. Joseph: You mentioned that you were really excited to work in healthcare when you think back to when you were a kid. Was this something you wanted to do when you grew up? Melody: [05:58] It was. I was that little girl who said, “When I grew up, I’m going to be a doctor.” I got the chance to apply for medical school, and I was most interested in alternative medicine. I applied for a program to get a Doctorate in Alternative Health. The estimated cost of the education would have been $500,000. And, that was the biggest barrier to entry for me. In hindsight, it was the right decision to not take on the debt. But it did leave me thinking I could not be in health care unless I got some sort of higher degree. Joseph: You moved into this area of neurodiagnostics, and you also co-founded a company. Can you tell me how things started off for you? What did you enjoy about that role? Melody: [06:53] Well, first and foremost, I love science. Getting the chance to integrate technology, and caring for patients was exciting. Being in the operating room behind those doors that a lot of people don’t get to see, it was a dream come true. But again, it was very demanding and a lot of hard work. I compare it a lot to what it’s like to travel on a plane. If you’re not on the first flight of the day and you get delayed, you never know when you’re going to leave or arrive. That’s how a lot of the operating room time schedules work. So, there were a lot of times when I had no idea when I would start or end my day. But everything becomes routine after a while, and a lot of the work I did was elective. I wasn’t saving lives. I wasn’t the one doing the operation. I was ancillary to the team, which was good, but it also stripped some of the meaning of being a healthcare provider for me. The business side was where I got my project management experience because there’s no way to set up a business if you don’t look at it like a project. I got the chance to try something that on paper, I probably wasn’t qualified to build or do because I didn’t have my MBA. But you could pick up on the theme that I was always worried about lacking that degree, that higher degree, to prove that I could do something. I was given a chance to do it without and it was fun, it was exciting, and it was hard. Joseph: What was the most challenging aspect of that period of your career? Melody: [08:40] Wearing multiple hats. Being in the operating room, but knowing that I needed to attend to a business matter. Also, staying focused on what was right in front of me. I had a really hard time being present and caring for the patient in front of me while I was also thinking about my business meeting that was happening shortly thereafter. The more I learned about healthcare for profit, the more out of love I fell with the industry as a whole. Joseph: We talked about this when we first spoke about this idea. I know you mentioned you were in the operating room, you get a chance to see a lot of things that the average person doesn’t get a chance to see. I think the way you put it to me at the time was the more you were able to see behind the curtain, the less passionate you were about healthcare. Can you just explain a little bit about what was happening? Melody: [09:34] I had lost my belief in what I was doing it for. Don’t get me wrong. My business was very small and we were profitable. It helped me get out of student loan debt from my undergrad, and I’m forever grateful for that. But once I saw what it would take to expand and grow the business, I realized that some of the nuances in health care and insurance building here in America were just not aligned with my values. I’m not criticizing anyone in the industry, but for me personally, it was a point where I couldn’t sell the services because I didn’t believe in the way billing worked anymore. Joseph: How long did you have that feeling before you started to think about moving to something else? Melody: [10:31] In all honesty, it was death by a thousand cuts. There were so many little things over time that were difficult: knowing the behind-the-scenes of healthcare billing, having a 24/7 job, working with other people who are 24/7 in a high-stress, high-intensity environment, and just the sheer exhaustion that comes from that. But there was a single moment in time I was thinking about it, the last 24 hours preparing for this. I was on call for trauma neurosurgery, and I lost track and I had taken a long walk. And, I was about a mile from my house when I got the call that they needed a tech immediately. So, I literally had to sprint home, jump in my car, drive across town, and set up for work, and that ended up being a 17-hour workday. Once I arrived, I found myself thinking more about when I would get to take a break, when I would get to eat, or how many hours I would get to sleep when it was over, versus what was happening right in front of me. I was having to work harder and harder to be present for my patients and my team. At the end of that 17 hours, I went to give the surgeon a summary of the case and he said, “Who are you again?” I was devastated because I thought my role in the room was important. I powered through a big long day, and it turned out that it wasn’t what I thought. I was looking for validation from the team around me and that’s something that I have been working on in my new career. But it was pretty grounding and humbling. That was the moment when I knew it was time to go. Joseph: That must be tough to hear because you’re investing your blood, sweat, and tears into something. And then, for someone to not even who you are in the room. That’d be really tough for me to stomach. Did you then think about making a change at that moment? What was running through your head after that night of pulling all those hours and well not even knowing who you are? Melody: [12:56] How am I going to get out? Joseph: What were you most afraid of when you were thinking about it? Melody: [13:03] I was most afraid of leaving the salary, which was a good salary but it required a great deal of self-sacrifice. Self-sacrifice had become my mode of operation. Most of all, I would be, on paper, walking away from a dream being in healthcare, founding a business. Let me be clear, that they were tied by my business partner was also my boss. I was very embedded in this neurodiagnostics world with my partner. The idea of untangling that was terrifying. Joseph: Did you guys have conversations about what was running through your head? This potential whisper that you were hearing about maybe doing something else, what was that like? Melody: [13:53] Joseph, I’ll be honest. I realized that for the six months prior to me finally saying it was time for me to go, I had become grumpier and grumpier at every meeting. I realized that my business partner was dreading having meetings with me because I would always bring in all this emotion and baggage because I was so burned out and so resentful at that point. When I did tell him, it was like breaking up. So, there was a great degree of guilt and awkwardness. His response to me was, “Oh, I know. You’ve been burned out for five years.” We had been working together for 11. Joseph: So, he recognized this, you recognized this. Well, you can share as many details as you want here. But what did he tell you when he found out that you were thinking about no longer carrying on as someone who was really burned out in this particular industry? Melody: [14:56] He was the same as he’s always been. He believed in me when he met me 11 years prior. But he also wanted me to stay holding up the two companies. He was considerably gracious. There was no arguing or begging me to stay. But I think it took them a few months to realize that I really was moving on. We kept in touch until — actually, very recently. I haven’t heard from him for maybe a month. We kept in touch because we had become friends over the years. Ultimately, I think that as much work as I carried for the companies, I think he also understood that maybe it was time for us just to go our separate ways. Joseph: I know you mentioned the moment that you experienced in the hospital when you realize you had to make a change. Was there a moment when you realized that as much as you wanted to continue to work, I guess with this co-founder of yours and to continue to work on this project you’d invested years into, was there a moment when you realized that that wasn’t working for you? The building of this business that you had built from scratch. Melody: [16:08] Yes. There’s a lot to it, but I’ll summarize it this way. I knew that I didn’t have the capabilities to grow the company in the way that it would take to be successful. I also had fallen out of love with that service line. The hardest part of leaving that were the people that my team there were such incredible and hardworking, and they sacrificed a lot to make it what it was. Ultimately, leaving both companies gave other people an opportunity to lead. Joseph: I have always been curious, Melody, about what it’s like because I’ve never been in this particular situation where you create the business, or the product, or the service, and you are building this thing. You are raising this like you would a baby. In some ways, it is your sort of metaphorical baby. I know this must be tough but can you put into words what it’s like to say farewell to that and to just hand it over to some other person who probably feels like some random individual who hasn’t been involved from the very start? Melody: [17:26] It was really hard. I was flying down to another city to tell my right-hand person, my right-hand team member in person, that I was leaving. I was in the airport googling how to leave a company that you co-founded, literally. I was grasping at straws. I felt better about it by creating new leadership positions for individuals who had been dedicating a lot and pouring into that, but nothing was adequate enough for me to feel good about leaving that. It still isn’t. I’ll be honest, I think about my team, I keep in touch with some, and I do still feel guilty for leaving them but they’re doing fine. Joseph: Just to paint a timeline here. We’re recording this in mid-2022. My understanding is that it was in 2021 when you started the process of trying to extricate yourself from this business. I’d love to shift gears here a little bit and talk about that exact transition. Like that period when you decided, “Hey, I’m leaving. I need to find a way out of this.” What happened between the time when you decided that and when you left? Can you walk me through those few months in your life and what was happening for you, what was running through your head, and what you were wrestling with? Melody: [19:10] Quick plug here. I found your podcast last February. That was after that moment of the 17 hours of surgery that I needed to look for that external support. So, thank you. You’ve been with me this whole time. From there, I had already built a foundation in project management. In 2017, I’d taken a Certification Course in Project Management so that I could apply it better to the business that I was already building and running. Continued with that and took a project management approach to everything in both of my businesses. To me, that was the obvious direction. But leaving a leadership position I held, two of them for 11 years, is very difficult and takes a lot of planning. I think from when I said, “I was leaving” to my last day, it was probably April to July. And then, I did some freebie consulting for the team afterward with some questions, I think until January, just little odds and ends and questions. Along the way, I drink a lot of wine. I probably talked about it to everyone that I knew. I exhausted my support system by talking about it because it was the only thing I could think about. You know what? Ultimately, when I did tell people I was moving on, it was just a collective sigh of relief. People were like, “Oh, thank goodness! Melody’s finally going to move.” Joseph: When you say “people,” like friends and family. Melody: [20:54] Yeah, my support system had been listening to my gripes, my grumpiness, and my woes for so many years. I hadn’t taken action until last year. I’m so relieved that I did. But it wasn’t the end, it was just the beginning. Joseph: During these few months when you’re trying to extract yourself, you’d also achieved your Project Management Certification, is that right? This was in late 2021. Melody: [21:28] I sat for my Project Management Professional Exam this February. So, just a few months ago. But I had been building my project hours over the years. Then, I put off taking the test because the application process in itself is pretty time-consuming. The application, I completed last year. Then, when they approve you, you have one year to take this exam. Like I said, the application alone is very daunting. Joseph: When you’re thinking, “Okay. I’ll get this certification and then I’ll be set to apply to other roles,” was that the plan? Melody: [22:10] I’ll back it up to when I finished my last day, my jobs. I started a small consulting company just to help give small businesses business operations and project management. But what I found right away is that I didn’t want to be a one-man shop and that I needed more resources, and probably more experience to be successful. So, I even got a job at a cafe because I wanted to make cappuccinos and do something that was not full of pressure. Joseph: No pun intended. Melody: [22:45] I know. It was this fantasy to go back to my first job, which was a barista. And, I got this cafe to give me a chance even though they looked at my resume and thought, “You’re insane.” But they gave me a chance and it was a full-fledged line-out-the-door café, and it was not a relaxing job. Although, the perks were delicious food and being on the other side of the register, which was important. Joseph: I mean I was just talking with somebody who was telling me that they had a friend who was saying, “Hey, at some point, I just want to slow down. I just want to have a job in a café. I just want to serve coffee and do something that doesn’t require a tremendous amount of effort outside of the work hours.” What was that like for you? I know you mentioned it was busy. But what was the experience like going from this high caliber job, but also role as a co-founder, working in hospitals, life-and-death situations to — not to diminish it but, serving coffee to people? Melody: [23:47] That’s what I wanted to do. Part of that was complex. I was immediately humbled because I hadn’t been in the restaurant industry for many years, and I had a lot to relearn. It was fun and exciting for about five minutes. And then, I realized that being customer-facing is hard. That people are either incredible or terrible. My co-workers were diverse and interesting, and hardworking. I only got to make a few cappuccinos. I mean that was what I was in it for, and it was harder than I thought. I scratched that itch. I made friends with the master baker who gave me a 30-year sourdough starter. I only lasted about a month before, honestly, my back went out. Joseph: Oh, no, okay. This was quite the change of scenery for you. Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I do want to talk also about what’s been happening for you over the past few months. Again, we’re recording this in mid-2022. You got your certification just three, or four months ago. What has this process been like for you as you have now tried to create this new chapter in your career focused on project management? How’s that gone for you? Just completely recreating your life and your professional life. Melody: I made it harder for myself by selecting to not look for roles within healthcare. I had some early opportunities from recruiters to do project management within healthcare, and it’s not what I wanted. In an attempt to reinvent my career in my life, I had said very early, “I want out of healthcare entirely.” I didn’t do myself any favors there. I’d like to say that I’m a generalist and I’ve been trying to continue important general skills like public speaking in my Toastmasters’ Club, and leadership, also in my Toastmasters’ Club, in hopes that someone would give me a chance to interview and say, “You know what? Melody can do anything. Let’s plug her into this industry.” Essentially, that’s what happened but it didn’t happen quickly. And now, that I’m in that, I’m still a little surprised and grateful that someone gave me a chance outside of my specialty area. Joseph: What did you ultimately end up doing, and what are you ultimately focused on right now? Melody: [26:28] I had a recruiter find me on LinkedIn for a project management consulting position. The job description does not match what I do and it wasn’t even close to what I interviewed for. I got placed in a contract with a public school district doing all kinds of things. But mostly, I’ve gotten the opportunity to be paired with strategic projects, which they’re not life and death like what I had been in before, but the scope of the people that they could affect is very large. I don’t know a lot about public education, and I’m learning every day. It’s nuanced, and it’s complex, and it’s political. But what I’m focusing on is taking my general skills in project management. And, just having been in such a high-stress environment and applying it to these projects, which are high stakes in a different way. To be honest, some days I leave work with more questions than answers. But that’s what I asked for when I left my other industry. Joseph: When you say questions, Melody, are you talking about questions related to the job itself, or questions related to your choice to do this job, or both? Melody: [27:57] That’s an interesting way to frame it. Maybe all of the above. I would say if you asked me a year ago if I would have thought it’d be in public education as a project manager, I would have said, “Hell, no!” But I also realized what was attracted to projects is that there’s a start and an end. I’m already finding myself wanting more, and that’s a scary place to be because I just gave up more. I gave up two massive roles to simplify my life. And so, what I really need to do is just sit still and be present, and do what I’m doing. Joseph: This is a really common I guess scenario that people either face or may be concerned about when they’re making a career change. From the people I talk to, one of the biggest hang-ups or hesitations people have about making a career change is maybe making a mistake, or maybe things not going as you hoped they would go, or maybe things not moving as quickly as you thought they’re going to move, or the work not being as interesting as you had presumed it would be. I’m not saying that any of those are necessarily what you’re talking about. But how do you wrestle with this situation where at least, initially, the blueprint you had in your head of how things could be, hasn’t exactly matched up with your experience? Melody: [29:27] I think I’m responsible for a lot of the discomfort in where I was before and where I am now. I brought some bad work habits with me into my new career, which include equating work ethic with self-sacrifice, with having difficulty setting boundaries around work. Not just because work is not demanding of me, I’m not shutting down the work thought at five. I know it’s not possible always to just turn it off. But more than once, my husband has said, “You’re not getting paid to talk about work right now. Why are you talking about work?” I had to recognize that I brought some of my bad habits that led to burnout and resentment in my last career into my new career. I have to take accountability that that is also possibly why I’m not happy yet where I’ve landed. I am really in a mode where I need to do some deeper work and not put all of my hope for joy, and peace, and love, and happiness in my career because I sacrificed the side of myself to be successful, to pay my student loans, and to build something. I believe that it’s time to build myself and my career is going to be on side of that, but not necessarily the central focus anymore. Does that make sense? Joseph: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think when we spoke before starting this recording the first time we connected, I think one of the things you told me was that a lot of your self-esteem comes from work. We’re not talking about you specifically, but just in general. People’s self-esteem a lot of that really emerges from your professional life and your professional identity, the company you work for, the title that you have, how big your office is in some cases, and how much you’ve climbed the corporate ladder. And so, I think it is very difficult to completely divorce yourself from your professional identity. It’s just really tough to do. It is interesting also to hear a little bit about your husband and his perceptions of you now versus before. I mean, have there been any other observations that he’s picked up or that he shared with you that you care to share with me that have just been interesting and maybe eye-opening for you to hear? Melody: [32:06] He gets alarmed when I don’t answer my phone, and I actually ignore it now because I was so tied to it. I was one of those people who if we were having coffee, I would be looking at it constantly, responding to texts while we were talking, and not being focused on who was with. Now, I’ll have the ringer on maybe 20% of the time. It will be buzzing and he’ll run into the room and say, “Your phone’s ringing!” Like, I don’t care. It took me a while to not jump every time I got a text or a call because that was how the hospitals and my team would communicate in the past. I did block about five hospitals that were still calling me as of two months ago for services. Don’t worry. I informed them first who to call. So, nobody’s not getting served. I blocked their numbers so that they wouldn’t call me anymore. The big one is just my behaviors with my phone are different, and I’ll sit through a whole meal without pulling up my phone, which I think we should probably all be doing. I didn’t recognize until recently what a bad habit I had developed with my phone, but it was a necessity of my job. Besides that, I think what people have known me this whole time have noticed is that I’ve become less serious, which is something I would also tell my younger self is “Don’t be so serious about everything.” I’ve created this insurmountable expectation for me and other people in my life over the years. It was tied to my career, but it seeped into my personal life. I believe people have noticed that I’ve calmed down and relaxed a little bit. I still have a way to go, I’ll be honest. Joseph: We all do. I was just having this conversation with my wife before we had this recording. I was telling her about my days back in Hawaii. For a long-time, listeners, and you may know this also, Melody, I spent about a year in Hawaii before medical school. I was out there just trying to do different things. I was just telling you, I didn’t give myself permission to relax as much as I wished I would have. I was really way too cautious that I needed to be at the age of 22. This does happen sometimes. I think this is a really good segue to talk about one of the last things that I was hoping to cover with you, which is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of this career change journey, which you’re still just like right in the middle of it right now. If it’s kind of at the start, actually. And, this is the perfect time that I think I would like to ask you about some things related to what you just mentioned about advice to your younger self. Anything else come to mind is you’re in the thick of this right now? Melody: [35:12] With all things, I would tell young Melody, “This too shall pass.” I did not spend enough time before I took this contract enjoying the in-between. To me, it was purgatory. I was suffering. I was stressed about what was next, what would my next salary be, and whether would I be able to prove myself. I didn’t enjoy that ride in between which was I just left a career, I sold the company. This is an okay moment to enjoy the ride and take each day as a day. Some days are great, some days are just a day. I was so focused on getting to this side of it where I had a contract in my hand and guaranteed pay. If I could go back in time, I would tell young Melody, “You know just, this too shall pass, enjoy the ride, and calm down.” Joseph: I can so relate to a lot of things that you’re telling me right now, Mel. I think you and I are very similar in this way. Maybe a lot of people listen to this where you just kind of want to get through that transition and just get to the other side, and you like to put so much pressure on yourself to figure it out right away. And, until you figure it out right away, you feel guilty about going and treating yourself to a cup of coffee or a cookie until you have your “life back in order.” You’re right. I think those transitions are rare moments when you’re in between these jobs, and you can kick back a little bit and slow down. It’s just very hard to do when you feel pressured to find that next thing. When you look back on your career change, what’s something that you wished that you had known that you now know? I realize you’re still in it right now. Melody: [37:25] I wish I would have known that my internal critic was not helping me. That it was holding me back, and that the people around me who were supportive and said, “It will be okay. You’ll get through. You have a good work ethic. You have a lot of skills. Just hang on.” I wish I would have known that they were right. It is something that is a central focus of my self-work now is calibrating that internal critic when it’s helpful, which is not that often for me and when it’s wrong. I want to believe the positive I want to know that it will be okay and it is okay. It sounds so simple but I read myself through the gauntlet all these years. I am still at the beginning of the shift, but I can breathe again. And, I can see that there is potential that this isn’t forever, this contractor, this specific position. I’m coming to peace with that unknown because I’m starting to finally believe in myself. Joseph: Having been through this career change, the last question for you, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Again, keeping in mind that you’re still at the start of this pivot. Melody: [39:01] What I recognize in myself is that if I spend too much time focusing on what other people are doing, I lose track of myself. What I’m learning is as long as I show up with integrity and authenticity, wherever I am, either work or non-work, people will respond in a positive way and I will also attract the right kind of people and the right kind of work as a result of that. Joseph: If people want to learn more about you, or if they want to get in touch with you, or just hear more about the kind of work that you’re doing right now as a project manager, what is the best way that they can get in touch with you? Melody: I’m on LinkedIn. That is the only form of social media that I use. And, I’m always looking to network and collaborate. I’m looking for inspiration and partnerships in a very broad sense. I just want to be connected and around people that are positive, and inspirational, and that we can learn from each other. Joseph: Anything else you want to say before we wrap up? Melody: [40:16] Well, I’ll give another shout-out to you, Joseph. For your podcasts and your work. I am so inspired by the people you attract to your podcast and the interviews that I’ve heard have helped me along the way. I’ve passed them on to others who are in transition. If there weren’t for people like you, people like me maybe wouldn’t feel as confident making that big leap. So, just wanted to thank you and all your interviewees for their great work. Joseph: Thank you very much for those kind words, Melody. I am really happy to hear that the show has helped you and it does make my day when I hear stories like yours where people have felt inspired to make a change. Even if it isn’t necessarily the perfect move right away, but that you’re taking strides in the right direction, that’s great to hear. Thank you so much, Melody, for telling us more about your recent shift into the world of education, some of the challenges you’ve had to overcome along the way. Most importantly, some of the things that you’re still wrestling with right now, which is what many people wrestle with when they’re trying to figure things out. So, best of luck with your new role for that school district. I hope you can continue to take steps toward what will hopefully provide you with that balance that you’re seeking. Melody: [41:39] Thank you, Joseph. It’s an honor and a privilege to be here. I’m going to consider this for me like closing of that old chapter because I’ve been holding on to a lot of things. I think I’m going to take this day and close that chapter, learn the lessons but definitely move on. Thank you. Take care. [End 41:58]

Professionals in academia have certainly not been immune to the current Great Resignation movement. An assistant professor of economics turned data science practice leader gives a candid glimpse into the world of academia and reveals his motivations behind pivoting from a university into the private sector. On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 87, we’ll discuss the unique challenges of academic careers, the importance of being open to new sectors, and why confidence is one of the most important assets to have during career transitions. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share my thoughts on why so employees are choosing to change career paths right now. Key Career Takeaways Studying one subject then going into a completely different field professionally is not uncommon and can actually provide you with a more unique perspective compared to others who follow more traditional career paths. When the people you’re surrounded by in your current industry have spent the majority of their careers in that same industry, the natural tendency is for them to promote career paths similar to their own because it’s the world they know. You may inevitably have to jump through some hoops to ascend the professional ladder you’re climbing, but at some point, the payoff may no longer be worth the effort. When you’re on an exhausting, depleting career path, you sometimes don’t realize just how much of a toll it’s been taking on you until you completely step away. You know more than you may be giving yourself credit for. Especially during career pivots, you must find a way to garner the confidence to unabashedly convey your unique value to others. The first person you have to convince is yourself though😉. Related Resources Read the full findings from that Prezi poll I mentioned about hybrid work survey findings that found evidence of employer proximity bias. Picking up on my Mental Fuel® segment where I discussed the importance of understanding how you prefer to work, check out this Slack article, Inflexible return-to-office policies are hammering employee experience scores Great Resignation articles- related to academia Calling it quits– Inside Higher Ed, July 2022 Has the ‘great resignation’ hit academia– Nature, May 2022 ‘Do it all’ culture ‘driving great resignation’ in academia– Times Higher Education, July 2022 Great Resignation articles- general Read why workers are quitting (BBC, Aug 2022) and where they’re going (Inc, Aug 2022) Why are people leaving the corporate world in droves– HS Burney, July 2022 Experts explain how to ace that ‘Great Reshuffle’ career move– CNBC, July 2022 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of deciding what sort of organizational ways of working are acceptable to you with the latest advent of remote and hybrid working. My challenge you is to just consider if you’re facing a bit of a turning point with your own employer where you’re getting mandated to do things for the sake of returning to the way things were that just don’t sit so well with you anymore. You don’t need to pick up and leave right away. But you may want to put some stakes in the ground for yourself about what ways of work are acceptable to you in the months and years ahead. About Andrew Graczyk Andrew Graczyk is a trained data scientist with a PhD in Economics. He’s worked in academic and instructional positions for University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Wake Forest University, and the Duke University Talent Identification Program. Now he’s Practice Director for Artificial Intelligence & Machine Learning at KForce, where he uses his mathematical, statistical, and game theoretic knowledge to architect and implement data driven improvements to business practices. Learn more about The Data Incubator that helped Andrew transition from academia into the private sector. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Andrew know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!   Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Encounter A Himitsu – Fragile Elm Lake – Purify Podington Bear – Bright White Podington Bear – Gathering Real Heroes – It’s Getting Better Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what’s been keeping you busy in your life and career. I understand you just started a new role just earlier this month, is that right? Andrew: [02:43] That’s correct. I just started as a practice director for artificial intelligence and machine learning at Kforce. That’s been keeping me busy, the transition has been keeping me busy, but it’s a lot going on. Joseph: What exactly are you responsible for there at Kforce, and what does Kforce focus on? Andrew: [03:00] Kforce is generically a staffing company. They’re the largest staffing company for infrastructure technology and other intelligence-driven services in the United States. They help companies solve problems for projects with people. What I’m responsible for is kind of kick-starting a practice in that vein for data science. Instead of having say IT people to institute some security protocol, or cyber security people instituting some protocol and working with a company’s full-time staff and permanent staff do that on a project, I would help to architect that and choose other consultants to help implement that as well as help implement myself. Joseph: You are based in Toronto. Can you just tell me a little bit about your personal setup? What’s been keeping you busy right now in your personal life? Andrew: [03:54] I guess what’s been keeping me busy lately is cats. We just got a new cat. I’m a very cat-oriented person. Joseph: How many cats do you have? Andrew: [04:02] Right now, we have three. Joseph: Okay. Andrew: [04:05] We just adopted one from a rescue here. Cooking and running; my wife and I like to run 10Ks and half marathons. I like to cook. I like to eat. I mostly like to run so I can eat. I don’t need to run, I run so I can eat and not become a giant person. Joseph: We have some things in common for. I love cats, Andrew. We don’t own one. I would love to own one, but I don’t know if I could keep up with it, and a little worried about the furniture. I also love running and I also love eating. Like you, probably run to eat, not the other way around. But before we go back in time and talk about your former professional life, you are in Canada but you are American. How did you end up in Toronto? Andrew: [04:52] I ended up in Toronto because my wife was working at the University of Toronto. My wife is also in academia and has a Ph.D. She came up in 2019, right after she got a Ph.D. into postdoctoral fellowship. I came up to visit her over spring break in 2020, and that is when the pandemic broke out. I was at the time a visiting assistant professor at Wake Forest University. They closed everything down, and all the travel shut down, and I was just in Toronto. For several years, I didn’t really go back to the States because it wasn’t really feasible to. I just kind of started being here. It was actually in Toronto that I began my transition. I like the joke that I came up for spring break and never left. And now, we’re both residents. The tax is a little complicated, my residence is actually in North Carolina for those purposes. I’m there sometimes, but still, in Canada frequently. Joseph: You mentioned academia there, and I would love to just go back in time. You haven’t always been working in data science at Kforce. You haven’t always been in the private sector. Can we go back in time and talk about your time in the academic world? We can move forward from there. What were you focused on as a Ph.D. candidate at the University of North Carolina, and how did you end up going down the Ph.D. route? Andrew: [06:20] Back the primordial days of 2010 and 2011, I was finishing my undergraduate degree at University of South Carolina. How I got into my head to do a Ph.D. is actually to this day kind of a mystery. It doesn’t really make sense why I did it because I got my bachelor’s in Physics and Math. I realized, towards the end doing lab work, that I kind of hated physics lab work. I was like, “That’s a problem.” I was like, “Okay, I could go into the high-energy pure math theoretical stuff. I could go and work for some oil company doing some basic physics, fluid dynamics stuff,” but I didn’t really like any of those options. For some reason, the end of my under career, I took a philosophy course which ended up teaching a bit about economics. It’s one of those weird interdisciplinary electives that colleges do sometimes, I can’t even remember what the name of it was, I was like, “This is very interesting. I think there’s something to this.” Somehow, I got into my mind to get a Ph.D. in Economics which I’ve literally never taken a course in. But I knew Math, and that helped a lot. I applied to a few different schools for their Ph.D. programs. But I applied kind of late because I was late to the game and figure out that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I got rejected. But then I went to North Carolina and said, “What can I do to make myself a more attractive candidate?” I talked to a few of the professors, and then they decided to let me in for the fall semester. Joseph: They just let you in just like that. Just from you having a chat with them. Andrew: [07:56] Yeah. I think maybe they just have a slot open up and they let me in. Joseph: Right place, right time. Okay. Andrew: [08:03] Then I went in there and it turns out that it was not so bad because most of graduate economics is just math, and I could do math. That’s how I got into the Ph.D. It seemed like it might give me an understanding for how society works. You think of it in some progression, I wanted to learn how the physical reality worked, and I wanted to understand how social reality worked. I’m not going to say that I did that in the totality, “I understand everything now.” I’m not going to say that I can do that, but it did provide me some insights into why society is the way it is in certain ways that for better or for worse I now have. I’m very grateful to that. As I was a Ph.D. candidate, I was focusing on game theory, labor economics, and financial asset bubbles, which seems like a weird combination. But really what my focus was on was understanding and providing some theory on how housing bubbles were the result of income and wealth inequality. At least, partially, that was a plausible thing in creating a model to show how that could be the case and how it explains phenomena that we see. Basically, how inequality was not just an effect of economic policy, but a cause of economic reality. Joseph: I see. Kind of generating distortion in asset markets as you had mentioned before. Andrew: [09:25] Exactly. I was really big into understanding how inequality happened why. In my mind, more importantly, what that does to society and economic just markets, in general. Joseph: You’re actually one of the first academics that we’ve had, just to kind of use the term broadly, that we’ve had on the show. I’m just going to take a big-picture view of this. This is what your dissertation was focused on. For those people who are listening to this and they’re just not familiar with what’s involved with doing a Ph.D., what exactly is a dissertation? Could you just explain at a very high level what that involves? Andrew: [10:00] A dissertation is where you put your ideas to realize that they’re wrong. Dissertation is a process by which you compile research. I’ve never met a person, and I don’t think I ever will, who’s got a Ph.D. who is absolutely sure of themselves. It’s not because there’s a well-known imposter syndrome. That is a real problem on academics. Part of it’s about understanding and embracing that humility of realizing so many people thought about so many things, every minute detail of every idea you have has been thought about studied and analyzed, and you have to defend every single statement you make about everything. Parts of it leads to academic speaking so strangely and insisting on such precision in their language. Because if they say something inaccurate, somebody’s going to jump out and say, “Aha! You misattribute this thing.” Joseph: We’ve spoken before, Andrew. My wife also did a Ph.D., and she works in academics right now and I have had the privilege of joining her at some of her conferences. Mostly, just because I wanted to kind of travel alongside because she gets to go to cool places. The discussions around the lunch table are very detailed, and very much in the weeds. To the point where I just really lose track of the conversation sometimes. That’s interesting that you describe that. How did you enjoy doing a dissertation? What was that experience like for you? Focusing on one very specific topic here in inequality generating distortion and asset markets, what was that experience like for you on a day-to-day level? Andrew: [11:32] I will not sugarcoat it. It was harrowing. It was psychologically quite taxing, and I would never do it again. I’m being completely serious there. It was a very stressful time. Part of it is just the volume of work. I mean most Ph.D. dissertations are between three and five academic papers, which really depends on the discipline you’re in. But usually, an academic paper is you said a research paper where you have to basically have a citation for everything or a mathematical equation justifying everything, and a graph justifying your interpretation of the mathematical equation. Joseph: How many pages are we talking about here per paper? Andrew: [12:08] Mine was only I think on the order of 250 maybe. And mine was pretty condensed because I didn’t really have any graphs. Mine was all pure math, theory, and proofs. It was on the shorter side, but there are some who swell must be on that. Some of it’s because they have like a bunch of figures and graphs and things that swell their space and everything. It’s really all about people telling you your ideas are wrong for six years until eventually, you find something they can’t find a fault with, and they can’t definitively prove is wrong. I made it harder on myself by kind of tackling this weird nebulous problem that people weren’t really familiar with of income inequality as a cause of things and asset levels. Both of which are pretty on their own pretty niche topics in the academic economic world, which they absolutely shouldn’t be. I think it’s a problem that they are niche topics, but they are. I put them together which is even more niche, which made people even more skeptical and drew even more scrutiny. I certainly don’t regret my choice of topics, and I don’t regret getting a Ph.D. but it was a harrowing process. Anybody getting a Ph.D., it’s really about deconstructing your worldview and building it back up in a way that is completely in line with available data and say that much. Joseph: You’re doing this dissertation. You’re doing your Ph.D. You finish your Ph.D. How did you then think about your career moving forward? I understand you then ended up moving into the realm of working with undergraduates as a visiting professor. Is that correct? Andrew: [13:42] The career trajectory that’s usually given to every academic person I’ve talked to at least, I’m sure there’s some places, they’re different. But most programs from what I can gather in most disciplines kind of point students at more academic jobs. I think the reason for that is a pretty simple selection bias. I mean the people who are instructing these people are professors who got academic jobs. I will say it’s almost impossible to cross the threshold from non-academic to academic jobs. It is very difficult. Unless you like you have some connection to. There’s very, very rare exceptions to that. But people who are in academia and have tenure jobs, or who are advising students, or almost certainly people who have done nothing but academia ever. It’s the world they know, it’s the world they advise in because it’s the world they lived in. It’s also a factor of most of the professors that I talked to and had work, let’s say it could have been a minimum of 15, 20 years since they had you know gotten their Ph.Ds., and the job market that they went into was very different from the job market that current graduates were entering into, which may have also shaped their understanding and their advice. So, the path laid out for me was, “Oh! Go get an academic job. Go get a professor job. Go join the Federal Reserve Bank. Go do something academia-ish.” And it quickly became apparent that that was not going to happen for a lot of people who I was graduating with just because of the degree of competition. Economics is not the most stingy with jobs. There are actually plenty of economics jobs there. Just still weren’t enough though, to say that much for. I know a lot of people who’ve had to go to private sector because of that. Or not had to, but they decided to. Joseph: You mentioned becoming a tenured professor. Can you just explain what is a tenured professor? What are the different versions of professor that are out there? My father was a professor actually. He was an assistant professor for a while, and then he was a tenured professor. But can you just explain the difference between like visiting professor, adjunct faculty/lecturer professor, tenure professor? Andrew: [15:52] I’ll start at the sort of the bottom of the totem pole as it were, with adjuncts. Adjuncts, they shouldn’t exist. Not that the people shouldn’t exist, but the position shouldn’t exist because the university should pay people to be actual professors. It’s kind of the minimum wage of academia. You have these people who know their subjects very well, have done research, done their Ph.Ds. But universities realize they can pay them on a per-class basis rather than hire them as a full-time faculty member. And so, often you’ll have people teaching on the order of or actually sometimes far beyond what a tenured professor would be teaching rather, and being paid very little. This is especially a problem among Humanities where there are have been fewer jobs opening up in the recent years for many reasons. To go up the totem pole a little bit, a lecturer is somebody who is just there to teach classes but they have contracted on a yearly basis and they have some benefits. But their job is only to teach classes. It’s a very important job to teach classes but they’re usually teaching undergraduates. Usually, have Ph.Ds. in the field. In fact, almost always. I’ve never met a lecturer who didn’t, but their job is to teach classes. Now then, you get into like professor level. Visiting assistant professors are weird. Joseph: That is what you were at Wake Forest, right? Andrew: [17:02] Yes. Technically, you’re only paid to teach. But the idea is that this is a temporary position where you are going to be doing some teaching/mentorship, research, but this is not a position that they want to be permanent and they are explicit about that from the get-go. You’re there you get benefits, but you’re not permanent. The idea is that you’re there to work with students and faculty, produce research and teach classes just like a normal faculty member would, but you’re not a permanent faculty member. There’s no pretense of you becoming permanent. And so then, you get into the actual like “permanent faculty members,” the one that can become tenured. Tenure is essentially a process by which you have a permanent job at the university. They can’t get rid of you except for very bad things to people, frankly. The reason behind it is, historically, it’s been to preserve academic integrity, and to make sure that professors aren’t fearing for their jobs anytime they publish a controversial paper, or anytime a student says, “Oh, this professor isn’t a good teacher because he gave me a bad grade,” that kind of thing. The tenure process is usually a few years. And so, that’s where we get into the assistant professors, like non-visiting assistant professors are people who could get tenure if they do well. What the process is will depend on the school, in the department, really. Some departments don’t care about student reviews. You can be an awful teacher and as long as you publish well, you’ll get a tenure. In fact, that’s how a lot of departments are. I shouldn’t say some departments, that’s how sadly many departments are. Most the time, it’s focused on what you publish and where, what kind of topics are you publishing in, how good are the journals, what’s the citation rate. Basically, are you spreading the name of yourself and the university by extension out into the world with your research showing that we’re doing really impressive things. Joseph: Okay, but you’re saying that most people who are permanent assistant professors, they are on the way eventually, assuming nothing goes horrendously wrong, to becoming a tenured professor. More often than not. Andrew: [19:04] More often than not, they’re going to get. I mean the thing is universities are pretty careful or departments really. Because it’s departments who are doing this job search. It’s not like you have an HR person who hires people. It’s usually the professors in the department have to go and search for people because they are the only people who are qualified to know what they need and what’s good, and what a good professor is going to be. For an HR person, it would be a nightmare because they wouldn’t know the difference between a good say Ph.D. physicist and a bad Ph.D. physicist. Joseph: Or like the different publications . . . Andrew: [19:28] Exactly. Or if it’s what the department needs right now. Because you could be a perfectly good physicist, economist, whatever, and they just don’t need that person right now. Like, “We really need somebody to teach this kind of course,” or when you really want someone to do this kind of research, and this person does a different kind of research. That was a problem I ran into a lot. I’m very familiar with that. The other reason is you’re very selective because they don’t want to do this again. If you’re the kind of person who gets selected, they probably are pretty confident you’re going to do enough work to get tenure. You’ve already shown a tracker. And so, it’s really just if you keep doing what you’re doing, you’re going to get tenure. The other reason is even if you falter and misstep a little bit, the department decides if you get tenure. The professors don’t really want to do another job search because it’s a lot of time. They have their own publications they have to do. They’ve got their own classes they got to teach. It’s a huge amount of work, on top of that. I’ve seen the job market from both sides and it’s a lot of work for everybody. So, as long as you’re doing the kind of stuff they expect you to do, they’re going to keep you around because that’s another 100, 200, 300 hours they don’t have to spend looking for another candidate and sifting through resumes and everything. Once you pass that threshold, you become an associate professor. He goes from assistant. If you do other specific things, which again is dependent on the university department, et cetera. Usually, it’s have students graduate, publish more papers, do service for the department, like be a chair of some committee, teach classes, do stuff, you become a full professor. Joseph: I guess we should also mention that this system you’re describing is kind of more of a North American System. It does not necessarily exist everywhere in the world. Certain countries follow this convention, but other countries for example, where I am in the UK, there’s no such thing as tenure, and it’s like a totally different system. But this is the system that you were in and that you were dealing with there in the United States. Andrew: [21:26] Yes. This is specific to the United States and Canada. Joseph: Just to kind of shift gears here then, thank you for giving us a lay of the land of how this trajectory could work out for somebody who’s in academia. What happened with your experience as a visiting professor? What was running through your head as you were thinking about your own career path? Were you thinking that you wanted to go down the tenure track where you gained for that? What was running through your head as you were teaching your undergraduate economics course at Wake Forest? Andrew: [21:53] I was torn, initially, because I really enjoyed the work I did. I enjoyed coming with research. I enjoyed teaching my students. I enjoyed coming up with courses. I gotten to teach a lot of different courses at Wake Forest University. I got to come up with my own course on inequality and history. It was a great time and it was really great working with students. But the caveat is I was a visiting assistant professor. I had this sort of Damocles hanging over me every year. Technically, I worked there for four years, but it was four one-year contracts. Every year I was going to job market, which as I mentioned is a stressful experience existentially, but also, it’s a lot of work. Because you got to apply to bunch of places you got to make, all these packets. It’s also worth mentioning that academic job applications are a bit of a different beast themselves. Usually, I have to come up with research plans specific to the needs of the university you’re working on. It’s a lot of writing just to make an application. You make dozens of these things. Joseph: You got to include like research samples, and the conferences you’ve attended, the grants. All that kind. Andrew: [22:54] You got to include all this material and often make new material and for every single thing you do. Because every university wants to see something a little bit different, everybody wants is feeling a little bit different. It’s a lot of work there. You have to make sure you have a new flashy paper ready to go in the job market with, that you can say the paper I’m going to use to showcase myself here. You make sure that you get that ready. You’re teaching in the fall, you’re doing this in the fall, which means you’re not doing any research because it’s not feasible. It’s really not possible. I like to say, I usually tell people that being a professor is three jobs. It’s teaching, research, and grant writing. For me, it was just research and teaching. I only had two full-time jobs, and I was already feeling the push. I don’t know how people do have to also write grants. Joseph: It’s almost like a vicious cycle I guess. Because you’re a visiting professor, you have to do these annual job hunts. And then, that detracts from your ability to do the research that would then otherwise help support your journey to becoming a tenured professor. It’s like this vicious cycle that you’re in. Andrew: [23:52] Ultimately, what I realized was that it was treading water and that treading was getting harder and harder. It was getting like bigger and bigger weights tied to my legs. The more years I was in it, the more exhausted I got. The worse it looked for me to be a visitor for that long. That vicious cycle was starting to create a whirlpool around me. I just realized that it wasn’t what I wanted. It wasn’t worth it. Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition then. How did you get into the private sector? How did you make that pivot? Because I know this is a question that does come up and has been coming up more recently. I’ve seen news articles about more academics wanting to leave academia, moving into the private sector. How did you go about doing it? Andrew: [24:36] The first times I tried were very unsuccessful. My first attempts to pivot in the private sector were actually back in 2019. What I realized was I didn’t know how to sell myself and I didn’t have any credentials that anyone in outside of academia understood anything about. That was itself very disheartening. I really didn’t get any traction in any meaningful way in the private sector. But then, when I got more serious about it in 2020, which came after that you know spring break, I mentioned that never really ended, I knew some stuff and I knew how to do some things but I didn’t know how to communicate in a way that the people on the other side hiring would understand. Luckily, I found some resources and I learned how to do coding in Python rather than some of the other software packages I was using. Joseph: How did you learn how to do that? Andrew: [25:25] I started just by downloading it and doing stuff, and googling things. Also working with like some other open source software, and just making some stuff. I did have some help from my wife who was very supportive. She had been doing Python for a while because some of her departments had pushed Python. They don’t want to pay for Math lab anymore. I found this program called The Data Incubator. I definitely got into the data science Python world more expediently than I probably would have otherwise. What I really learned from them was how to talk about things in a way that made sense to non-academics, and how to comport myself for interviews and job market practices in the private sector, which is substantially different from the public sector in academia. Joseph: Where did you ultimately land as your first private sector job? Andrew: [26:12] I ended up getting a job at NNDATA, which is a contract company that mostly works with the Department of Defense and other public sector entities, solving data problems. It was really great that I got to go there because they threw me at a lot of different projects really fast. In a year and a half that I was there, I got to work on probably got a half dozen different projects on very different topics. Doing stuff from your natural language processing to big data, to small data, to anomaly detection, to everything in between. I got to do a lot of fun stuff. That really helped me not only broaden my horizons in terms of data science but talk about things and know what technologies are out there. It gave me a crash course and basically all of data science, plus data engineering, plus some other things. A really great opportunity. Joseph: When you were there, can you just describe the major differences that you found working in the private sector for a company versus working for a university? Andrew: [27:14] I was technically in my contract with the universities protected against all kinds of things. But I was still a one-year contract. I weirdly felt more protected in this at-will employment contract because it didn’t have a definite end date. Knowing that I wasn’t under the gun to either find a new job or get my contract renewed every year was probably the biggest most positive change that I didn’t even know I needed. I didn’t realize how exhausting it was until it wasn’t there anymore. I was just like I feel so much better. I can enjoy things. The other thing was it was actually weirdly a lot more collaborative. Now, maybe it’s because economics is kind of a field in academia where people tend to work in either singular or small groups. Even the ones who are very collaborative don’t work that closely with each other. There’s often usually just a bunch of stuff they’re doing on their own. In this case, it was really interesting to have a team to collaborate with and have ideas with, talk about things, help each other. If I got stuck on a problem, ask somebody. I could help people if they got stuck on problems. It was quite nice to have that atmosphere. Joseph: It sounds like things are going quite well for you at NNDATA, how did you then end up shifting from there to Kforce? Andrew: [28:27] I was kind of sad to leave. The reason I left though was that I got essentially a better offer. I had met some people who put me in touch with other people and in conversations about data science and solutions in general. I ended up also meeting one of the practice leaders at Kforce who decided for some reason that he wanted to have me on his team. He was a guy who was more of a data engineer and he wanted to bring data science to Kforce. For some reason, he figured that I was the person he wanted to do this. I don’t know how. The conversation I had with this guy started back in like October of 2021. What we were just talking about data science in general, and what the future of it was as we saw it. It wasn’t until June of this year, eight months later, they ended up contacting me and said, “Hey! Are you still interested in doing this?” From there, went really fast and we had interviews, and I ended up getting chosen for this position. I think what it was about was just that the breadth of things I could talk about in very academia detail, what convinced this guy to push for me and to push to start this thing now. Joseph: So you weren’t actively looking for a role. This was an example that we talk about on the show quite a bit of just staying in touch with people, keeping the communication lines open, and sometimes over the long run, opportunities pop up. The last thing, before we talk about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, moving from academia into the private sector, could I just also ask you what if anything do you miss about the world of academia? Andrew: [30:11] It’s hard to say now because I’m aware on both experiential level, a statistical level, and also I guess to add into that a sort of game theoretical level. Understanding why the academic job markets are so problematic. Extricating the job from the job market is difficult in my mind. But I suppose if I do miss anything, it’s probably working with the students, and helping them to develop their own understanding of say economics because that’s what I did. I thought I would miss the research, but really as a data scientist, I kind of get to still do it just without all the having to pay thousands of dollars to a paper to publish your work. I can just put stuff on papers with code or on archive, and do so if I want to share things. But really, it’s the same spirit of pushing the boundaries, testing the possible, and experimenting. Academics would probably say it lacks rigor. It probably does, but it’s also way more results-oriented and doesn’t take nearly as long to implement things. But I say it’s the same spirit, so I don’t have to miss the research. Joseph: If there is an academic out there who’s listening to this, do you have any thoughts on how they can think about whether or not they should consider moving into the private sector, or an industry role, or the corporate world? Any thoughts on who it is for and who it’s not for coming out of academics? Andrew: [31:39] I would say that it’s always worth considering the private sector. You should never not consider it. But if you’ve considered and you’re not sure what to do in the future, what I think helped me was that I realized that the process of research, the process of the job market, didn’t make the potential of a tenure training job worth it. I think what is important to think about from an academic’s perspective, if you value more the results of research and the implementation of your results, then the research itself in an ivory tower, it’s definitely worth getting into the private sector. Because you can find places to do the same things just as much in the private sector as you did in public sector or in academia, and you won’t have what I’d say the stifling rigmarole of the journal system holding you back. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up with maybe having a quick chat about The Data Incubator because I know we kind of skimmed over that. I do want to come back to that. I just wanted to hear a little bit about the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your journey. The first question is just it sounds like you’re quite happy in the transition that you’ve made. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing career paths, what might that be? Andrew: [33:02] You know more than you give yourself credit for. I mentioned the beginning of this conversation how good the dissertation is at breaking you down and building you back up and making you be precise about everything. What you have to remember is that while you’ve gone through that and you’re still probably in the aftershocks of it, and you know those aftershocks might last your whole life of you thinking that you don’t know definitively things. You know more than yourself credit for, and you need to be able to have the confidence and self-awareness to build yourself as such. Put on the hypothetical billboards of what you know and never be afraid to assert yourself in that way. Joseph: When you look back on your career transition, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Andrew: [33:51] There’s no real reason to be nostalgic about academia. It can be scary and unfamiliar leaving, but it really doesn’t stay that way for very long. There’s so many people who need so many things that you will find something. Especially if you have you know a Ph.D., you know something very well. Somebody needs that to do something else. Joseph: And having been through this career change where you have now successfully crossed the chasm from academia into the private sector, what’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Andrew: [34:29] I am very good at adapting. I’m very good at being thrown into a situation where I don’t know I’m supposed to lead the meeting, but I get put to lead the meeting so I have to go based on what I know about the client to have an intelligent conversation about the thing we’re supposed to be doing. I’m good at being the guy who they need something to show somebody. They say, “Please come up with something in the next day.” We don’t know what they want but do something that’s impressive. And I’ll come up with something. I’m very good at thinking off my feet and at adapting to situations that they come. I know some people don’t like that. I realized more than academia had been giving me the chance to show that I was able to do that, and that’s actually kind of what I like. It keeps things fresh. I don’t mind having projects that are ambiguous where suddenly the client reveals what they really want, and we have to change our perspectives and reorient ourselves quickly. Joseph: I want to wrap up with something I know has been important to your own career trajectory. I know you mentioned that The Data Incubator was one of the reasons why you were able to make this leap. Can you just tell me a little bit more about The Data Incubator and how it helps people move out of academia and into the private sector? Andrew: [35:48] The Data Incubator is a program that’s designed to give people certifications in data science work, or also data engineering now. When I did it, it was just data science but now they also do data engineering. The point is they are acutely aware of the problems I was talking about where people know stuff, they know how to do technical things, they’re very talented people, but they don’t know how to get their foot in the door in the corporate world or in the private sector for whatever reason. What The Data Incubator is about is two things really. I would say it’s two things. It’s about teaching skills. They take people who are otherwise good at math, stats, whatever but don’t necessarily know how to program or code because they might have been taught in programs that don’t do those things as much as they maybe should in the modern era. They teach them how to code in Python, how to use these packages, how to do data science, how to train models, how to use their expertise in other areas in Mathematics, and translate that into the programmable results from a computer in computation. The other thing they do that I think is very important is they explicitly teach you how to do a job search, which is something I never really got taught even in academia. They just kind of said, “Oh, go and apply for jobs!” And no one ever really told me like what you should be doing and how you actually get a job. These people do that they sit down with people say, “Here’s how you write a good resume.” They have people help you structure your resume to emphasize your best traits, to help you structure cover letters. Like, “Here’s how you should write a cover letter for this kind of job.” “Here’s how you should approach an interview.” It was really about translating the fonts you have from academia, putting it into a funnel and out into a way that people outside of academia can understand so they can know how valuable you are. Joseph: Very interesting. It sounds like they played a huge role in your own career, and it’s playing a huge role in other people’s careers. Thanks for walking us through that. I’ll definitely include a link in the show notes so people can learn more about The Data Incubator. Well, thank you so much, Andrew, for taking the time to tell us more about the world of academia that you left behind, how you manage the transition into the private sector, and also the importance of moving on when the time feels right for you. Best of luck with your new role there at Kforce, and I hope everything continues to go well for you as you head down this new career path. Andrew: [37:59] Thank you very much, Joseph. Once again, thank you for having me on the show. It’s been a pleasure.

Leaving a corporate job behind to start your own business is never as straightforward or simple as it may seem. Norma Kimber, an operational excellence director at an established, global financial services firm who pivoted to become a virtual assistant and business owner shares her journey of walking away from her stable, senior role in the corporate world to start her own business. In episode 86 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, we also discuss what impact organizational politics can have on your psyche and the relationship between your own health and your career decisions. Norma and I have crossed paths a few times in the past because she’s joined some of my virtual firesides, and I’ve also personally chatted with her about some of her virtual assistance services when I was exploring the idea of hiring a virtual assistant myself. She shares some of the realities of not only leaving a full-time job behind but also the impact it can have on your psyche when your spouse still works at the well-known, global company you left behind while you try to build your own business from the ground up. Key Career Takeaways When you’re in a corporate environment, it’s very natural and almost expected to keep up with your peers and climb the corporate ladder. Consider how much you thrive on or get disillusioned by the politics of your organization. Delegate a task when doing it detracts from your ability to focus on what you’re uniquely good at or from  your income-generating tasks. Finding the right assistance isn’t about identifying someone who not only has the skills necessary to do the job but also a work style and approach that clicks with you. Tweetables to Share Find the right people to support you, and ask for help when you need it. Norma Kimber Tweet This Hiring the right people to help you is an investment that often pays off. Joseph Liu Tweet This Freelancer Resources Mentioned Virtual Assistance: check out Norma’s profile on Pink Spaghetti. Business tasks & projects: I use Upwork (for longer-term projects) and Fiverr (for simple executional tasks). I’ve also used Squadhelp for naming ideas and Crowdspring, 99Designs, and DesignCrowd to crowdsource creative assets. In-person help: I’ve used Taskrabbit for help with tasks that require in-person assistance. Task list management: I use ToDoIst. Scheduling, I use OnceHub. Social media management: I use Vista Social to manage all my social media accounts in one place. I’ve used Buffer and Later in the past too. (note, affiliate links above) Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to think about one time consuming task you’ve been doing that detracts from your ability to focus on one of your other professional or personal priorities. Or something you feel someone else could just do more effectively and more efficiently. Delegate it. This way, you can can take that time and instead focus on something you’re uniquely positioned to do. About Norma Kimber, Virtual Assistant & Business Owner Norma Kimber is a business owner and virtual assistant. After a varied start to her career, including office management and accounting software management, she moved to Brighton, England in 2003. Then, a couple years later, she started a 16-year career at an international financial services company, initially as an executive assistant. She took on several internal roles and promotions and ended her corporate career as a Director of Operational Excellence. She then left the corporate world behind to start her own VA business as a Pink Spaghetti franchisee. Follow Norma on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare,  Tweet to let me and Norma know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Namecheap for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Namecheap for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Namecheap is an affordable, trustworthy domain registrar that offers free privacy protection with every domain registration. Claim your unique website domain today to start building your brand by visiting CAREERRELAUNCH.NET/NAMECHEAP. Interview Segment Music Credits Thanks to Reeve for producing the music in this episode. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): You do lose a lot of your identity when you move away from an organization, especially if you’ve been in one place for a very long time. Then, when you move out of that and you’re suddenly just on your own, and it’s just about you and the services you can offer, it is kind of a scary place. Joseph: Hello, Norma. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Norma: [02:26] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me. I’m very happy to be here. Joseph: I would love to talk with you first about just setting the scene and getting a sense from you of what is keeping you busy in your work and in your life these days. Norma: [02:40] In my life, these days, my almost two-year-old is what keeps me most busy, I think as most people with small children would appreciate. Then, with work, I have fairly recently started my own business. Building that up is my main focus at the moment from a work perspective. Joseph: I am also the parent of a very young child, and I’m just wondering what’s that balance been like for you between running your own business and also, motherhood. Norma: [03:10] It’s fairly challenging to manage a small child and starting a business. But it all came about at the right time because I think it would have been far harder to try and manage a corporate career with a small child. At least, I’m only answering to myself and my very selective clients, as opposed to the corporate organization that probably doesn’t have that much sympathy for a small child needing your attention. Joseph: I can relate to the idea of the flexibility being invaluable once you become a parent and being able to control your own schedule. Also, can you just tell me where are you based and where are you originally from? Norma: [03:56] I’m based in the UK in Brighton of South London. I’m originally from South Africa, but I have moved here in 2003. It’s almost been 20 years that I’ve been in the UK. Joseph: What originally brought you to the UK from South Africa? Norma: [04:12] I was very interested in traveling in Europe. Europe is far away from South Africa. At the time, when I came over, we had a working holiday visa scheme. I was lucky enough to be able to come over on that. The intention was to stay for two years, see a bit of Europe, and then, probably, head back to South Africa. But I met my husband here not long after, probably about three months after arriving here. I just got stuck here. Joseph: It does happen. Before we go back in time, could you give me a snapshot of the work that you’re doing right now at Pink Spaghetti? We will get into more details on that later. Just real quickly, what’s an average day for you right now? Norma: [04:57] It’s very varied. That’s actually what really attracts me to this type of role. So it’s a virtual assistant services business. Every day looks really different depending on what my clients effectively have on. It range from having a day of research or networking or general administration, sometimes, calls, luckily, not too many calls. Every day looks different, which is really what keeps me interested in doing it. Joseph: We’re going to come back to the VA work, the virtual assistant work that you do. I would love to get into more details on the exact types of tasks you help people with. Before we do that, I know you haven’t always been a business owner, and you haven’t always been a virtual assistant. You spent 16 years working in the financial services industry. So I was wondering if you could tell me how you got started in that industry. Norma: [05:50] I fell into it, more than anything else. When I moved over to the UK, the intention was, as on the two-year working holiday visa, to do fairly limited work and do traveling. The intention was really to end up going back, of course. At the time, when I started there, I didn’t have a clear idea of what I wanted to do. I started initially as a temp, doing call center work. Then, when I was hired as a full-time employee, I started as an executive assistant. It’s kind of gone full circle a little bit. Then, I just worked my way up really through the business. I moved from being a virtual assistant into a re-engineering type role, doing a fair bit of training on Six Sigma process engineering type activity in the services industry, and then, from there, eventually, ended up in operational risk management. It was just a case of being there. Initially, I was very happy there. It was an exciting place to be because a lot is going on in the financial services industry. I got to see a lot of the world traveling and lots of exciting things happened in my career in the financial services industry. It was never really thought through or planned that way. I kind of fell into it and then, seemed to do pretty well, and then, just kind of carried on from there. It was kind of more luck than anything else. Joseph: You kind of just, I guess, climb to the corporate ladder, for lack of a better term. Then, you eventually became director of operational excellence at your company. What was that corporate life like for you when you were at director level in a large multinational corporation? Could you just give me a sense of what your day-to-day experience was in that role? Norma: [07:38] I would say what I liked about doing that role was having teams of people to manage. So I love working with people and working with my teams. Being a team manager was something that I thoroughly enjoyed. Most of my time though, I would say, in the latter part of my career, was spent on phone calls. When we eventually had to work from home with COVID, it wasn’t much of a transition because we all did a fair bit of flexible and hybrid working in the organization. Even if we did go into the office, I would spend, predominantly, my day mostly just on the phone talking to various people. Joseph: Team members or clients or suppliers? Norma: [08:20] Team members. It was all pretty much internal. So it would be internal. I think this was part of the reason why I eventually left. One of the many, many reasons was that you would end up spending phone call off the phone call, talking about meetings that you were going to have or meetings that you did have. It was mostly just talking about meetings all the time or talking about things that should get done, but very little in terms of actual work that I did myself within the last few roles that I held. Much of it was coordination and problem solving with other teams internally and making sure that they were delivering on projects that they had to deliver. At the end of the day, really, in terms of what I achieved or delivered myself, it was very, very minimal. I just spent most of my time on the phone talking to people what they should do or should have done. That was pretty much my life. Joseph: You and I have spoken a few times before. I think you know that I spent about a decade myself working in the corporate world. Did you find that the work you did earlier on in your career, in more junior roles, was more focused on the work itself, compared to when you were at a more senior director level, where it can be a bit more about stakeholder management or internal alignment building or as you put it, meetings about upcoming meetings. Maybe that’s a bit of a leading question, but did you have that experience at all? Norma: [09:50] Absolutely. In hindsight, I do ask myself sometimes whether I would have taken a promotion when it was offered to me at the time, because, of course, as you’re going into a career you do want to progress, you do want to climb the corporate ladder when you’re in a corporate environment. You want to do better in comparing yourself with peers, you want to comparatively do well. It was something in the early part of my career that I wanted to do and push myself to get as far as I could. What I did find more rewarding was when I was actually in more junior roles and could deliver results. You could deliver projects and be accountable for, to an effect, your destiny, and your deliverables because actually, it was just much more about doing things and getting things done. As you get more senior, you do just manage stakeholders. It does just feel like you remove a conductor in some respects, as opposed to actually delivering anything. Some of that is fairly rewarding, but I do think that you get to a point where it doesn’t feel like you ever really get that sense of achievement as much. I certainly didn’t feel that way, because I do thrive from seeing actual results. If you’re ending up just helping people or pointing their signposting and pointing them in the right direction, it’s easy to lose that kind of sense of really being able to make a difference or deliver anything of substance. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I definitely can relate to pretty much everything you just said, where I felt like at more junior levels, oddly enough, although they always encourage you to get promoted and to advance in the organization, I found those roles too, at times, be more rewarding and satisfying because I was doing stuff, rather than just managing the opinions of others. How did you come to your decision to eventually depart? Norma: [11:37] I mean, I’ve been thinking for years that I would like to have my own business. The sticking point for me was always in doing what. So I had this idea that I did want to have my own business but just could not think of the idea. I was kind of waiting for this great idea to hit me at some point so that I could start my own business. Joseph: What was it about starting your own business that was appealing to you? Norma: I think just having the autonomy of making their own decisions for yourself in terms of where you want to head and not necessarily having to answer to somebody else. The one thing that, from a corporate perspective, really negatively impacted me was politics. Politics is just not something I cope with very well at all. I managed okay in some respects, I would say. I, actually, probably, didn’t in very many other ways. I didn’t get on with it. I did not enjoy it. I, not for a second, enjoyed politics within the corporate environment. For a long time, I thought this is just really not the place for me. So I just knew that I needed to probably do something else. So having that autonomy and actually, just being really in charge of your destiny to an extent was something that drew me to having my own business. Thinking about that big idea that people think that they should have when they start their own business or something truly unique was the thing that helped me back because I wasn’t sure what that might be. I grappled with that for a very, very long time, before I decided to, then, eventually make the move. I think much like very, many other people, so I’m not unique in this space at all, when I had my daughter in 2020, I was, right when we were in the pandemic, of course, as well, I knew that once I went back to a corporate career, I probably would want to make that shift fairly soon after that. Unfortunately, a few things happened, of course, in 2020 and 2021 that made me push to make that change. We had the pandemic and that focused a lot of people’s minds on what they wanted to do with their lives because we all had this focus on what could happen. Unfortunately, January last year, I lost two very good friends in a fatal car accident. Along with that, and wanting to also make sure that I’m a good role model for my daughter because I wanted my daughter to feel, grow up thinking anything’s possible. She really can do something that she enjoys. So I wanted to be a good role model for her. I just thought staying in that corporate career with so many things showing me that life is short and life, you really should value life, and wanting to be a great role model for my daughter, I decided that it was just a time for me to go. I couldn’t put up with a career anymore that was making me very unhappy at that point. Joseph: Would you mind just taking me back to that moment, because you mentioned you lost two friends in a fatal car accident? What exactly happened? What was running through your head after you found out that they passed away? Norma: [14:50] It’s pretty horrific. I haven’t talked about it much, so it still feels very raw. Two very good school friends of mine, they were in the car together. They were a couple. We grew up together. The school that we’ve been to in that area is a very foggy area. I mean, visibility is pretty terrible then. I’m surprised there’s not more accidents, even though there are a lot. Joseph: This is in South Africa. Norma: [15:13] In South Africa. They drove into the back of a big a truck. It was a horrific shock because we were so focused on COVID at the time. We were kind of expecting people to get COVID and possibly, pass away from COVID. They both had it not long before that and came out the other side of it. We were so relieved. Then, together, this happened. It was a big shock. After that, I wasn’t recovered from that yet. Maybe it was stress as well but had a big health scare as well, just not long after that, and at the same time, was returning to work from maternity leave. Frankly, the treatment from a corporate perspective, when you’re going through a lot of stuff like that, like returning from maternity leave, is the big, big thing. I think a lot of people underestimate what it’s like coming back after a year and having your whole life turned upside down, even if it’s something that you wanted. Then, these other things happening, as well as the health scare that I had, yeah, it was quite shocking how little room there is for people to be people, and for people to go through things within an organization the size of the one that I was in. They all put it into sharp focus for me, that I just didn’t want to be in a place where I was just effectively a number, that would be treated the way that I was with all of this stuff going on, on top of previously thinking it, probably, was time for me to go anyway. Joseph: It sounds like a lot is going on there, Norma. You’ve got the birth of your first child. You’ve got COVID. You’ve got a health scare. A couple of your very good friends were killed in a car accident. At what point did you make the leap to leave? Do you remember that day when you made that decision? Norma: [17:04] It was February last year, about two or three weeks after this car accident, which I, then, decided this is time that I need to go. I thought I would give myself a year at that point to kind of spend a year saving a bit of money, and thinking through what’s next for me. At that point in time, I was pretty determined that I would stick it out for a year or year to 18 months, probably. Then, I got the health scare. So I was back at work from March for two months. Then, I had to take time off. So I was, then, off effectively for pretty much the rest of the year. As I was thinking about what else to do, that’s when the idea came to start this business, I just needed something that could be more flexible and something where I had a bit more control over things. I decided pretty much by July time last year, I decided that it was time to hand in my exit soon, which I, then, did by November last year. So it’s all pretty recent, still. Joseph: What exactly was the health scare, if you don’t mind talking in more detail about that? Because I know you’ve mentioned it a couple of times. It sounds like it had a big impact on how you were thinking about your own life and what you wanted. Norma: [18:20] It was a condition called adenomyosis, which is a form of endometriosis. I think people are probably more familiar with that term. It is slightly different, where the cells grow. It’s caused me to hemorrhage. I had extreme bleeding for about three months in the end, where I thought I had probably something like uterine cancer. I just come to terms to the fact that well, I just had my baby not long before that. We had tried for several years through many successful rounds of IVF to conceive her. It was a really big turning point for me because I just thought, “I’ve just had my baby. Now, I’m going to die. I’m going to leave her without a mother.” It was a pretty big thing. Thankfully, all of the tests came back negative. It was, I say just, adenomyosis. It’s pretty terrible condition as well, but it’s, at least, not what I thought might be uterine cancer at the time. It seems to be okay now and manageable now. Joseph: Thanks for sharing that. I’m glad you’ve made a full recovery. If it’s okay with you, I’d like to kind of shift gears now and talk a little bit about the actual shift to doing your work as a VA and as a business owner at Pink Spaghetti. I know you mentioned before that you knew you wanted to be self-employed, you wanted to run your own business, you want to be a business owner. How did that idea come up for you going from not knowing what you wanted to do to “Hey, I’m going to look into VA work”? Norma: [19:57] It was actually a friend of mine that suggested it. At the time, I thought, “If I can’t think of my own thing to do, what I might do is just do something part-time.” I thought the full-time hustle of being on the phone all the time just does not work. I started putting feelings out and followed a Facebook group to look for flexible work. On this Facebook group, Pink Spaghetti was advertising for more franchisees. I thought this really looked like a great opportunity to me, because not only can you get to start your own business, but as a franchise, and I don’t think all franchises are equal, but as a franchise, you also get sufficient help to get you to set the business up. You’re not starting from scratch, because I was pretty terrified about starting my own business and, after 16 years in a corporate environment, really have no clue about where to start. I kind of weighed up that I could probably start my own thing of some description. I just needed to decide what that was and really kind of struggled to find my way around how to go about setting up a business and how to manage a business. Then, when this franchise opportunity showed up, I just thought this is the kind of perfect side of both worlds because it allows me to set my own business up and give me that autonomy and be able to run my own thing, plus get support from a fantastic organization, who will show me the ropes effectively and be there from an ongoing perspective as well, to provide support, as and when needed. It’s almost like buying a business in a box effectively because you’re not, you’re not starting from scratch. It’s all there. The branding is there. The business model is determined. It does give you enough flexibility to do your own thing as well. So it just kind of popped up on a Facebook feed. I just thought this just looks perfect to me because it will give me kind of a bit of everything that I want. Joseph: This is fairly recent. We’re recording this in spring of 2022. It sounds like this kind of came to its inception late 2021. How’s the journey been for you so far? What’s the good, bad, and the ugly? Norma: [22:02] So far, it’s been great. I mean, I say great, but it’s when you start your own business, there’s always some downsides as well. So far, it’s been great. The franchise that I brought into Pink Spaghetti has just been wonderful. I mean, the training has been phenomenal. The ongoing support is phenomenal as well. It’s absolutely the right decision for me. It’s tough as well because as you’re starting, I think you’ve spoken about this on your previous podcast as well, is that you do lose a lot of your identity when you move away from an organization, especially if you’ve been in one place for a very long time. If you leave a large organization, then people, of course, associate you with that and that becomes part of your identity. It’s recognizable. So if you tell people where you’re from and what you do, it is fairly recognizable. People understand kind of which box to put you in. When you move out of that and you’re suddenly just on your own, and it’s just about you and the services you can offer, it is kind of a scary place and especially if people, then, start saying when you start developing new business and people keep telling you, “No,” then, it can feel really hard initially, when you just hear, “No,” all the time. You’re like, “What is it? Is it my business? Is it me?” then, it’s all these self-questioning and all the imposter syndrome that comes with that is tough to deal with. That’s been a little bit hard. I would say that I think I’ve come out of the other side of that. I have a great set of clients who I love working with, and things have just become a bit easier. If I do have a moment where I just feel like I don’t know what I’m doing, or I feel a little bit lost in some way, then, I call up the franchise folks who have this great support team, and they always help. It’s been, mostly up so far. I’m enjoying it pretty much all the time. So that’s great. Joseph: You mentioned the franchise model a few times, Norma. For somebody who’s listening to this, if they’re not familiar with the idea of franchising, how exactly does it work? My rudimentary understanding of franchising is that they, as you mentioned, give you the tools to get your business started. They’re also helping you with things like marketing. They’re giving you some maybe formulas that work well to get the business going. Maybe you do a bit of, maybe, revenue sharing. How does it work with Pink Spaghetti? What’s the model there? Norma: [24:27] I think it varies a little bit by franchise. Of course, I can’t speak for all franchises, but effectively, you will buy into the brand. The branding is something that you get to use. As you say, so you pay them an upfront fee, so, effectively, purchasing the rights to the Pink Spaghetti. Particularly, you purchase the rights to a specific area that you’re about to network in. Then, you will pay an ongoing fee as well based on the revenue that you take each month. In return for that, they provide a whole set of marketing materials, as well as training and ongoing support on an ongoing basis. So it’s pretty straightforward. The great thing about this franchise is that we have flexibility to be creative within your own space. So they give you the framework effectively, and there are, of course, some guidelines that you need to follow. At the same time, you do get a fair bit of flexibility. If you bought something like a McDonald’s franchise, then, I imagine you won’t get a lot of flexibility because it’s very, very clearly defined and well-restricted about what you can and can’t. Joseph: Can’t make your own burgers there, right? Yeah. Norma: [25:33] Of course. Yeah. With our business, you are very much allowed to make your own burgers. Joseph: It sounds like the best of both worlds as I hear about it more. The franchise model, it does seem like you get a blend of autonomy, you get some support, you’re not completely on your own, but you also have some independence. Related to the actual virtual assistant work, I also got to ask you, Norma, as someone myself, and I think you and I have spoken about this before, who struggles to delegate and carve off tasks, especially when it relates to the business that I’ve worked hard to build, can you explain how someone can tell if they could benefit by hiring a virtual assistant? Norma: [26:17] Yes. I think if you can sit down and think about everything that you’re doing at the moment that you either don’t have time for, which is the starting point, I think, for very many people is just the things that are always on your to-do list, and you just don’t get to do them. That’s probably the starting point. Then, the second part of that equation is probably the stuff that you do, but you just hate doing it. Because we all, as business owners, including me, have a whole bunch of things that we just think, I really could just do without doing this because it’s taking you away from the things that you’re good at. So for example, if you have a business that is, let’s say, a PR company. The stuff that you do that’s going to bring your income and be your talents is doing the actual PR work. There’s a whole bunch of business-related work that is not going to be the stuff that brings you income or joy or add value to your clients. So I would start with that as a list of things that you could probably hand to someone else. Then, I think the second part of your question that you mentioned there, Joseph, is about letting go a bit of the control piece. I think from a control perspective, it is probably starting, I would say, two things, probably. It’s find the right person for you because all VAs are not equal because different VAs have different skill sets and different talents. Some’s specialized, some are more generalist. The second bit to that piece is that you have to make sure you find someone that works very well with you. I think communication is the most key part of this. If you get somebody that you get on well with, you can have an open conversation with. If stuff doesn’t work or works well, then, that’s a good starting point, because ultimately, you want to be able to have such a good relationship that you are able to give them something. If it doesn’t go right, then, you can have a conversation about why you want it a different way. I think start small. It’s probably the last bit of advice that I would say. Pick something that you feel. If this goes a little bit wrong, it’s probably not the end of the world. Get a feel for each other and see how it goes. Then, build up from there. That’s typically how I think unless somebody’s experienced in outsourcing work, then, I would say just start small, so that you start getting more comfortable and also, start working out the relationship and making sure that you’re all clear about how to communicate with each other on how to get things done, and so on. That would be my advice. Joseph: I’m just going through my list of things, as your invoicing came to mind for me. Very interesting. Norma: [28.57] You’re not alone. It’s on very many people’s lists. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I understand your spouse still works, not only in the industry but also at the firm, where you used to work. What’s it been like to, I guess, leave the corporate world behind, have a spouse who’s still in the corporate world, and be trying to build your own business? Does that ever enter into your psyche at all? Norma: [29:26] It very much does. So he’s worked there a little bit longer than I have, actually now. He is still there. Luckily, he is incredibly supportive to me in my journey and the changes that I wanted to make. So that’s very helpful and very interested in what I do. So if I do need a second pair of eyes on anything, he’s always very willing to help me. I’m really lucky from that perspective. What is interesting for me, though, about the fact that he still is there is that I often hear some of the things that are going on because we have conversations about people moving or changes and all of those kind of things, obviously, nothing under NDA, but if there’s anything in terms of the organizational changes or movement of people and all of those kind of things, and it just makes me, I would say that he’s happy, that he’s very happy there. I think there’s a major difference between where he is and where I was. When he talks about it, it just makes me feel incredibly grateful that I was able to make this change, because it has just put into sharp focus for me that that is not where I want to be. It’s two-sided because sometimes, there will also be some of the really good things that come with corporate life that I will, then, think about, that I miss and that I have to start from scratch by myself to make sure that I get to a place where he was, because particularly when it’s time for bonuses, and I’m like, “Oh, that.” Joseph: You don’t get those. Norma: [30:56] Nice bonus that I would have had. Now, I don’t have that. So I just need to work a little bit harder if I want to get more money. It’s an interesting place to be, but, for the most part, I’m just infinitely grateful that I’ve been able to make the change. Joseph: Well, the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here, Norma, is just your journey and what you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. First, I was wondering, have there been any major surprises for you along the way as you’ve shifted from the corporate world to self-employment, as you’ve shifted from financial services to VA work, just anything that has surprised you? Norma: I think a few things have surprised me, I guess, the first one is, and this is probably a little bit more of a negative one, and I am still kind of grappling with how to navigate my way through this, is that people make assumptions about you. So unless they know your history, then, people seem to, I don’t know how am I going to put this in a nice way, maybe look down on you a little bit. When you’re saying that you’re a VA, then, people will sometimes think, “Are you just an admin person, like probably don’t have a lot of life experience or work experience?” I think that’s kind of interesting for me, because I have had a pretty successful career. I could probably step into a pretty well-paying corporate career again if I wanted to. It is strange that people make that assumption without really getting to know you. What’s good about that is it’s challenged me to think about the assumptions I make about other people, because it’s the contrast that I can see, so obvious to me at the moment. Kind of interesting, but also, I think, good learning for me, because it has challenged me to think about the assumptions I make about other people potentially. The other thing is just how amazingly creative people are has really surprised me and how kind people are. I have just been astounded by the amount of amazing businesses out there because in a corporate world, I think your perspective is pretty narrow in terms of what you see when you’ve been in one place for such a long time. The amazing small and medium businesses out there and their creative ideas and just how incredibly creative people are and making this stuff work, to me, it’s just astounding. Also, just out of all of those people, people have just been so welcoming and so friendly and so helpful, that I’ve just been quite stunned by all the kindness of people wishing you to succeed and wanting to help you, with not wanting to have anything back or not expecting anything back, as they kind of point you in the right direction or try to help you. So it’s been really pleasant. I think it’s just been an amazing learning for me to see how much great stuff is out there and how amazingly kind people are. Joseph: Now, if you had to give advice to your younger or your previous self, as it relates to changing careers, what might that be? Norma: [34:04] Probably, to relax a little bit more about everything. I think because I was so focused on trying to build a career that I think I probably did a lot of things that, in hindsight, I just wouldn’t have done. This hustle, this trying so hard to get somewhere, and probably, doing it at the expense of my health and expense of relationships or friendships, and the expense of other people, potentially. I think a lot of that, people in that environment get so caught up in that. I just feel like it’s such an unhealthy thing to do. I would probably tell myself just to not get so caught up in it and just relax and enjoy the good bits, but not worry so much about all of that other stuff. Joseph: Is there something that you wished you had known that you now know about running your own business, for example, because it sounds like that’s something you’d wanted to do for so long? Now, you’re doing it. Any interesting insights about what’s something you wish you had known that you now know? Norma: [35:09] I mean, that you could do it, that I could do it. I would just tell myself, “You can absolutely do it.” I think just make sure that you find the right people to help you and support you, because, for me, I just think just taking the dive and asking for help where you need it is probably something that I don’t do enough of, still. It’s definitely the thing that I would say to myself is, “Just do it. Ask for help if you need it. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with asking for help.” Joseph: I also know that when you sometimes put yourself in a very different environment, I know I experience this myself and I talk to people who’ve gone from the corporate world into self-employment who have experienced this, having been through this career change, what’s something that you have learned about yourself along the way? I am keeping in mind the fact that you’re still quite early on in your journey here. Norma: [35:58] That I love to learn new things. I’ve just absolutely thrived so much from learning so many new things over the last few months, about six months or so now that I’ve started this. Just the sheer amount of learning that I can do is just so exciting. It just keeps it interesting. I think that’s probably the thing that I’ve learned about myself more than anything else. Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up by making sure that we give people a chance to find out more about you. If they’re interested in learning either more about Pink Spaghetti or the virtual assistance services that you offer, where can people go if they want to learn more? Norma: [36:39] Probably, the best place is pink-spaghetti.co.uk. You can find me on there if you search for Brighton or on social media.

Making a major geographical move can certainly be exciting but also disruptive, jarring, and disorienting. Becoming a new parent is such a privilege but also life-altering in a way that creates both benefits and challenges. Nicole Webb, a journalist and news reader turned media consultant and author, describes what she experienced when moving from Australia to Hong Kong and eventually to China while adjusting to life as a new mother. She’ll discuss how she managed to adapt and thrive in the midst of tremendous professional and personal change in Career Relaunch® podcast episode 85. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also share my own thoughts on the importance of just starting somewhere when you’re trying to figure out ways to turn your side interests into an actual business. Key Career Takeaways Persistence pays off in the long run even if you don’t feel like you’re immediately gaining the traction you want as quickly as you want Going from fulltime professional to fulltime parent can be incredibly jarring, resulting in a loss of identity and confidence in yourself. There’s nothing wrong with doing something for free, at least initially, as a way of proving yourself and testing the waters until you decide whether it makes sense to monetise your skills. Tweetables to Share Stepping back into the workforce after you have a baby is not easy. Nicole Webb Tweet This This is your career, and you get to do what you want to do with it. Joseph Liu Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of considering whether and when to charge fees for something you just enjoy doing. My challenge to you, is to just consider whether it still makes sense for you to continue doing something you’re currently doing for free. You might have very good reasons for continuing to do it for the reasons I described before. However, if you’ve been getting that nagging feeling that it may be time to turn this side work you’ve been doing into something more, and if you haven’t yet found a way to monetize it, I’d recommend you consider what earning even a BIT of money from it could potentially open up for you. Even if money isn’t your primary motivator or need at this specific moment, that’s totally fine. I’d just suggest you try and pinpoint exactly what you might gain from some sort of monetization, whether that matters to you, and what that means for you. About Nicole Webb, Media Trainer & Author Nicole Webb is a journalist, presenter, media trainer, and author. She spent 20 years in the Australian television industry working as a Reporter, Producer and Presenter. A key player at 24-hour news channel Sky News for a decade, Nicole covered stories spanning tragedy to triumph. She also produced many of Sky’s high-rating programs. In 2010, Nicole and her hotelier husband moved to Hong Kong right after she became a mother, where they lived for four years before moving to Xi’an in North-West China. Nicole continued her work in media in the Asia-Pacific region before returning to Australia in 2017, where she’s since remained focused on communications. Nicole’s work now includes hosting premier events, presenting for corporate companies, and media training and consulting. Check out Nicole’s book China Blonde: How a newsreader’s search for adventure led to friendship, acceptance…and peroxide pandemonium in China and follow her on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Nicole know!  Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!  Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Music Credits Hushed – Pillars Neutrin05 – Timeless Guy Copeland – Lymantria Dispar Rippled Stone – The Days Long Gone Adriel Fair – Oscillation Scott Buckley – Snowfall Megan Wofford – Moonlight Dreams Scott Holmes Music – Life in a Moment Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Hushed – Pillars Neutrin05 – Timeless Guy Copeland – Lymantria Dispar Rippled Stone – The Days Long Gone Adriel Fair – Oscillation Scott Buckley – Snowfall Megan Wofford – Moonlight Dreams Scott Holmes Music – Life in a moment Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): “What am I without this news reader title?” Which I guess I hadn’t realized quite how much I had pinned who I was to that status and that name. It was almost like I just forgot what I was good at. Joseph: I appreciate your time here. I want to dive right into this. First of all, just kick off by getting a sense of what you’re up to right now. What’s keeping you busy right now in your career and also your life? Nicole: Yep, it’s late here in Sydney so I’ll try to make sense. Life is busy. We’ve been back from China for four years now. I think it takes a bit of time to find your mojo and settle in wherever you go. It feels like ever since the pandemic, we had locked down for four months. Ever since that wrapped up, work has been coming at me. I’m doing a lot of publicity for other authors which is something I never expected to do, and that’s really good fun. I’m doing that. That’s keeping me busy. I’m doing a bit of presenting again which I haven’t done really for quite a long time. I did a lot of emceeing and that in Asia. I’ve been doing few TV commercials and things, which has been fun getting back into the studio, and media training. It’s kind of come full circle really. Everything that I sort of learned in those early days is coming back into use. It’s been great! Joseph: Now, you mentioned in your early days that you want to go back to how you started your career many years ago. Before we get to that, could you also just describe what’s happening in your life right now outside of work? What’s keeping you busy? What’s on your mind right now? Nicole: [04:27] Well, we were in lockdown for four months in Sydney so nothing was happening, but I was still working. We’ve been out of lockdown probably about five weeks, so not long. It’s just been I guess slowly, slowly stepping back into the real world. Going to the shops for the first time again, going and getting hair color and cut, sitting at a café, all those things that we take for granted, and everyone the world over knows what that’s like now. Just getting back into life again. It’s been good. It’s been a bit overwhelming because you sit on your bum for about four months not doing too much, watching Netflix. Suddenly, you’ve plunged into the world and people are having parties and gatherings, and it’s all quite people-y. Joseph: It is very jarring, that adjustment. I’ve recently gone back to doing a lot of in-person engagements. I’ve found that it’s quite a rattling experience almost to just throw yourself back into being around tons of people again. I totally understand that. Nicole: [05:32] I agree. I think it is. You think you can’t wait to see people again, and it is exciting when you first turn up at a gathering. But, at the same time, I found myself sort of putting it off and sort of trying to schedule things that weren’t so busy wasn’t one on top of each other. You know, one thing at a time, I thought. One step at a time because it is just overwhelming. As you say, you’re not used to being around people and face to face. We’ve spent most of the time on Zoom for the last two years, haven’t we? Joseph: Definitely. I completely understand that. I know that at the same time, you’re probably quite used to all sorts of different media and being on different platforms and formats. Because I know that you actually haven’t always been a media publicist, but you started your career off in journalism. I was wondering if we could go back to your first chapter back in your early career in Sydney when you were in your early 20s. Could you tell me a little bit about how your career kicked off in journalism? And then, we can move forward from there. Nicole: [06:34] Yes. I was one of those people that, when I was 17 in high school and sat with a career guidance officer and she asked me what I wanted to do, I really wasn’t sure. I knew I wanted to live a life less ordinary. But, what that meant, I didn’t know. Hollywood, maybe, but I couldn’t act or sing so that was out of the question. What else? I remember she said to me, “Well, what about journalism?” I thought, “That could be an interesting career.” I like to dig deep, and investigate, and find out things. I had probably quite liked the idea of being a news reader. From then on, I sort of made up my mind, “Right, that’s what I’ll do.” Not being naive to how difficult that would be to get into. I managed to get into university doing a Bachelor of Arts, Major in Journalism and Public Relations, and went off and did that for my three years and finished. Of course, it was so hard to get a job. It was near impossible. Blondes, young girls wanting to be reporters on TV were a dime a dozen. To stand out from the crowd was tough. I ended up getting a job in radio, in sales, for a while. I was sort of given the phone book and said, “Here’s your client base. Go out and sell radio advertising,” which was a bit daunting. I did that for a while. And then, the TV station, local TV, I’m talking country town too, poached me for the TV station. I did that but I still always had this yearning to be a TV journalist. So, I started making a demo tape with some of the guys at the station there that did the ads and sent that out to all of the news directors around the country. Of course, I kept getting a lot of nos, rejection letters, you name it. Kept pursuing and persisting. I’d drive to the car park in my lunch break and look at my notebook and just ring all of these news directors each month, “Have you got anything for me?” Nothing came up. In the end, I ended up leaving the city I was in and went to Melbourne where my parents were living. I gave myself a year to get into journalism or said, “I’d have to go into sales again or PR.” A year was almost up, and in a little country town called Tamworth in New South Wales, Australia, the news director called me and said, “You’re a perfect example of persistence pays off. Would you like a job as a TV reporter?” I didn’t hesitate. I was off like a shot. The rest is history. Joseph: Tamworth. I think you mentioned this to me before. It’s like a six-hour drive from Sydney. Were you thinking that there was going to be an opportunity out there for you in news journalism? Nicole: [09:04] Well, I kind of knew that in Australia, a lot of the country towns had small bureaus. They might not have been the main headquarters, but they would have a couple of journalists and a couple of cameramen. I was desperate. I wanted this job so badly that I was like, “Hey! Get me out of the city. I’ll go to this town of 30,000 people and see what I can make of it.” So, I drove from Melbourne at that point, so I think that was about 20 hours in the car. I landed in Tamworth and started reporting. Of course, the stories were anything from the big tomato competition to a double murder-suicide. You just didn’t know what was going to happen. I mean it was a sleepy town, but all sorts happened over the two years that I was there. It was a really good grounding and a good starting point as a journal to get in the thick of it. Joseph: How did you then proceed from there? Were you enjoying the reporting? Is that what you felt was the place you wanted to be in journalism? How did things evolve for you from there? Nicole: [10:08] Look, I did I love it. I loved it. But I always had this thing in me that I wanted to get to the big smoke. And, in Australia, I guess that was Sydney. I still had my eye on doing that. I got offered a job to open one of the bureaus up on the Gold Coast, which was again bigger than Tamworth, but not the city. I went up there for a year and then I thought, “You know what? I’ll just go to Sydney and maybe try and freelance.” And that’s what I did. I ended up in Sydney and started freelancing at a lot of the major networks just whenever I could get shifts. Basically, I was a news producer. I would go in and sit on the computer, tap out stories, and put bulletins together which I like doing as well. Eventually, I decided a full-time job would be best because this whole freelance business was a bit tricky. I got offered a job on the business program with Sky News. I was the producer for that. It was a half-hour business show each night. That was great! I love doing that. I also got to do a bit of presenting because, at the time, Sky News produced quite a few programs and one of those was health news. That was just a pre-recorded program, so it wasn’t live. I kind of could dip my toes in presenting a little bit and start honing that craft which I, at that point, had decided I wanted to be a news reader. I just kept going and going until eventually, I got to do the main news. Sky News is a 24-hour news channel. A bit like BSkyB in the UK. Obviously, not as big as that by any means. That’s a much, much smaller version. But back when I was there, it was 24-hour news. So, you would do a six-hour shift and you would read six bulletins back-to-back. I loved doing that. I ended up doing that for about a decade. Joseph: That’s interesting. I’ve always been fascinated with the world of journalism. We have some parallels, Nicole. I think we may have talked about this before, but I worked very briefly in news journalism for Hawaii Public Radio. It was just radio, it wasn’t TV. I was in the production side of things. Sort of like you, I started dabbling in the news anchor side of things. In the TV side, is that a common transition to make going from production to being on air? Nicole: [12:28] I think it is now. I think perhaps and was then. But I think maybe 20 years before that, not so much. You were sort of pinned as a news presenter from the start, and often news presenters weren’t even journalists back then. Whereas, nowadays, I think you tend to start off most news readers will have been a journalist on the road or producing. In some way, they would have been involved in creating the news and then led up to that presenting gig. Joseph: It sounds like this is going well for you. It sounds like you’re enjoying working at Sky News. You’re on air for six hours at a time. You’re doing what you want to do. When we spoke before, I know you went through a bit of a transition in your early to mid-30s. Can you tell me a little bit about what was happening I guess in your personal life and what triggered you to then change directions in your career? Nicole: [13:21] I was reading at Sky News, living the life, driving a mini convertible, living in my apartment, having a great time, and was single. But then, I, fortunately, met my husband on a blind date. He was in hotels at the time. He did say to me early on, “They like to move us around in hotels and there are opportunities overseas.” I did shut him down quite quickly because I’ve been such a career person. I thought it wasn’t that I didn’t want to go overseas, it was just that I thought I’d miss the boat, you know. I was in my mid-30s and I thought I’ve kind of missed that time, and I don’t want to give up what I’ve achieved so far. So, we sort of put that to bed because he was from England anyway, and come here as a backpacker. So, he was away as far as he was concerned. And then, maybe after we got married, a year later, a job came up in Hong Kong at the W. For some reason, I just thought, “I have been doing this for a decade now and I could quite easily be doing the exact same thing in another 10 years. I couldn’t see how things would change.” I felt like I was somehow losing a bit of that ambition and losing my mojo a bit. I guess I was a bit tired with it all. I remember just saying, “You know what? We should do it. Let’s throw your head in the ring and see if you get the job in Hong Kong. Let’s go.” He nearly fell out of bed when I said that. He did, he got the job. Next thing I know, I’m sort of resigning from my career. Also, the same week found out that we were having a baby. It was a bit of a two-pronged affair. Joseph: Those are two really big pieces of news, right? You’re finding out that you’re moving abroad. You’re finding out that you’re going to become parents. Can you take me back to that moment, what was running through your head that week when you found out? Nicole: [15:14] Just “gulp.” Like, “Oh, my gosh! Is this really happening?” I can remember being on air, and I was just newly pregnant. My mum knew, and she would watch me on-air from she lived up in Queensland. She was, “I can’t believe you’re pregnant, and I can’t believe you’re leaving!” But she had encouraged us to do this. But it was just so daunting. I remember James went ahead of me and I had to sort of pack up the house, sell the cars, and do all of that. When he got there, he would send me a few pieces of information about what it was like there because I didn’t have much idea. I’d been there once probably 10 years prior for just a couple of days so I didn’t know what it was like to live there. Let alone, have a baby there. Of course, when we got there and it was fantastic to have a baby there. Amazing! Joseph: This was your first time living abroad. Is that correct, Nicole? Nicole: [16:03] Pretty much. I mean I had moved from New Zealand to Australia as a teenager but it’s the same. Joseph: Right. I guess Hong Kong, we’re talking about totally different culture, totally different language. People are speaking Cantonese there. Can you describe what that transition was like for you? Because this is a pretty major move for you. Nicole: [16:23] It was a big transition. I remember just dealing with your body is changing anyway because you’re pregnant, and we didn’t have a home. We lived in the hotel for six weeks which was great. But it was still quite unnerving. James was busy with his job because he had a new job, a lot to prove, and very long hours in Hong Kong. If you came home at 7 p.m. that was considered an early mark. I had a lot of time on my own, and I’m sort of waddling the streets, getting bigger and bigger, and a bit of lost identity. “What am I without this news reader title?” Which I guess I hadn’t realized quite how much I had pinned who I was to that status and that name. It was almost like I just forgot what I was good at. Especially, once Ava was born. Suddenly, you’re a mum and you’ve got this new baby. I couldn’t even think of working at that time. And then, I thought, “What would I do anyway? I’m just a news reader. I just read the auto queue. What else could I possibly do?” It sort of took a good friend of mine who was there and said, “Look, don’t forget you’ve got 20 years of experience. And it’s not just reading the news. It’s writing, and producing, and speaking, and creative things, all of this.” It just took me a while to sort of work that out, I think. Joseph: Can we talk about this shift for a second of going from full-time employee and professional to full-time mom. Because this is something that comes up a lot. I mean I see it around me. As you know, I’ve got a 4-year-old at home. This shift from being full-time employed to being at home, changing diapers, and singing nursery rhymes. Can you just describe what that was like for you? Nicole: [18:18] It was very strange, I guess. It’s not that I’d ever been desperate to be a mum, but I thought I would be. But I was always such a career person and it was strange. I’d be down in this big giant shopping center which was underneath. We lived on the 43rd floor of a high-rise apartment in the end. Just so many different cultural aspects to it as well. Having a baby in Hong Kong, so many people have their two cents worth and their cultural things come into play, and what I’m feeding her, and what I’m doing with her. You get questioned and put on the spot. I just felt quite alone with it, I guess. I ended up joining a group of pregnant women who were all due around the same time. In hindsight, it was the best thing I could have done. But I just remembered, it was daunting. Also, I just remembered seeing housewife on the VISA applications, and that threw me as well. It’s like, “That’s not me! What’s happened to me? Where am I?” Joseph: Just the emotions of going from being a news reader at a reputable organization to this “housewife,” as you described it. That to me would be quite shocking and kind of hard to stomach. Nicole: [19:28] I can still feel the feelings when I talk about it now. I think it was hard for James as well because he was so supportive of me. It was hard for him though to know what to do and what to say. Because he was trying to juggle this new job and support me, and I’m here whinging. I think I was quite a pain in the bum for a while until I sorted myself out. Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about that. Your daughter’s name is Ava. Is that right? She was only a few weeks old, and then at that time, you did manage to find a new gig. Could you explain how that came about, and what you ended up doing there in Hong Kong? Nicole: [20:09] Well, actually, the first gig I ever did was a master of ceremonies for an event, and I’d never done this before. I guess people think, “Oh, you’ve read the news. So, I’m sure you can be an emcee for the night.” But I was terrified! Because by nature, I’m actually quite a shy person. So, standing up and talking in front of a whole group of people that could see me was quite different to a camera where I can’t see the people. I was really terrified when I got asked to do this job. Ava was nine weeks old. I just thought, “Wow!” But I knew I had to say yes, because I also knew that I had to have something of my own. Joseph: How did that sum up for you? Nicole: [20:45] I think it was actually a friend of mine who couldn’t do it and suggested me. It was one of those things that I was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time. They had these award nights. They are fantastic and became really good friends and had me back every year. It was worth doing it. Joseph: How’d you balance that with having a 9-week-old baby? At the start, I’m just trying to imagine how you pull that off. Nicole: [21:13] Well, I was lucky. I remember at the time James’ parents were in town from the UK. They looked after Ava. I remember having breast pads in and trying to find an evening dress that was three sizes bigger than I was used to because I still had pregnancy weight and all of that. It was all a bit a new era for me, I guess. I did that. It gave me the confidence again and reminded me that, “I can do this. I have got this experience” I think a lot of women, even if they’re not living overseas, struggle when they first have a baby because they’re so much out of their comfort zone. And then, they have to step back into the workforce and it’s not easy. Joseph: Okay. You go from working full-time to being a full-time mom. And now, you’re back to working time. What was that transition like for you? Just the mechanics of that, and also just the emotions of that. Nicole: [22:03] I was really lucky. I didn’t ever go back full-time with Ava. What I did was just emceeing. It was sort of irregular. It was just enough to sort of I guess feed me a little bit of enthusiasm and confidence. And then, I also started writing. While I’d been a journalist and I’ve been writing scripts for years, that’s quite different as you know to writing an article. I started just writing for some parenting websites. Because I guess I was trying to combine what was happening in my life with my media experience. What was happening is that I was changing nappies and visiting change rooms all around Hong Kong, trying to get on in taxis, trying to find my way with no Cantonese, and trying to fumble my way through it. I started writing articles about parenthood. I did it for free in the beginning just to get my name known, I think. Thankfully, that sort of led to other things like writing for magazines and what have you. It was never full-time, but it was flexible. So, it was great, having Ava, I could do it in my own time, so to speak. And then, that’s what sort of prompted me to start my blog. Doing all of that writing I guess I found that I had quite a passion for it and I enjoyed it. On the 2-year mark of being in Hong Kong, I started my blog which was “Mint Mocha Musings.” It just fuelled me through this whole pregnancy, and parenthood, and sleepless nights. “Mint Mocha Musing’s, The Hotelier’s Wife and Expat Affair in Hong Kong,” it was. I just started writing what was happening in Hong Kong, and all of the crazy, amazing, fascinating things that I would see every day as an expat. That blog soon monetized itself. It wasn’t a huge amount of money, but I soon learned there were ways of doing that and making a bit of extra money on the side. All of these little things I guess were enough to make me feel like I had a sense of purpose again. Joseph: You mentioned one thing there about monetizing your blog. I know that there’s a lot of people who maybe listen to this show, and they’re thinking about doing some writing on the side, and whether they want to make money from it or not, they just want to share their thoughts with the world. How did you turn your blog from being just a place to share your thoughts to something that was generating money? Could you share some of the mechanics around that? Nicole: [24:20] It’s not easy, I’ll say that. It’s really difficult to make a lot of money, but people do, that’s for sure. You just have to be very, very dedicated. It’s almost a full-time job. But for me, I was able to do sponsored posts. That would be always a company that I felt aligned with what the blog was, which was travel and expat and parenting and all of that. That might be an airline or something that might sponsor a blog post. So that means I would write any sort of article that I would normally write. But maybe I would just write a sentence in there that might relate to say “flying” somewhere, and then they would pay to have a link to their website. You can do those. Obviously, you don’t want to do those all the time because then the blog becomes inauthentic. But, every four or five blogs, you can put one of those in there and that gives you a bit of money. Another way is through affiliate advertising. One of my biggest affiliates was OFX, which you can transfer money wherever you are overseas, back home, and you don’t have to pay a fee. That was a great one for my expat community. And so, every time someone sort of found that through my blog, which I advertised it on there and joined up through me, I would get a percentage of that commission. It’s not a bad way to earn a little bit of money. It’s not a lot, but it’s certainly something for your efforts. Joseph: You’re doing some emceeing. You’re doing some presenting, you started writing Mint Mocha Musings. I guess you’re a few years now into being in Hong Kong. Are you and James thinking this is where you’re going to be for a while or what was the plan from here on out? Nicole: Look, we like to think that was where we were going to be because we were loving it. A couple of years in, you find your feet and you find friends and you start to really get into the swing of things. We loved Hong Kong and we probably could have stayed there forever. But the problem now was that James was number two in the hotel, and he needed to really get to be the general manager to progress his career further. We started sort of putting out filler, and of course, jobs would come up all the time from Bangkok to Seoul, to Singapore, all over the place, India. And, James’s sort of put his hand up and he might get to the last interview or the job would fall through or whatever. But China just kept coming up because they were building so many hotels. I think, in one year, the company was starting at the time built 80 hotels in China. It was almost getting a bit hard to avoid China. We did get offered a job in Wuhan. When no one knew where Wuhan was or that it even existed, and I remember we went up there for the weekend because we had to decide by the Monday. We went to have a look and make this decision which was just so hard and overwhelming because we didn’t really want to leave Hong Kong. We ended up turning that job down, but we soon realized that we couldn’t say no too much more. Eventually, Xi’an came up on our radar, and I just remember googling it because that’s all I had to go on and it looked quite attractive as far as Chinese cities go. The quintessential Chinese architecture, lantern sort of hanging around the city. I said to James, “I think we’ve just got to do it and get it done. We’ll go for a year or whatever. You get your first general manager role, and then you’ll be more set up.” And, I thought I’ll just take my laptop and I’ll continue my blog. Of course, there’ll be a lot to write about in China. I’ll continue some of the contracts I had with magazines, but I couldn’t work properly of course because you needed a proper VISA. That was all very difficult to get. So, four years into Hong Kong, we moved to the middle of China with Ava, three and a half years old. Joseph: What was your setup in China? For those people who’ve never been to China, where were you living? What was that like? How was your adjustment? Nicole: [28:17] Xi’an is inland. If you’ve ever looked at a map of China, there’s Beijing up the north on the east coast, and then Shanghai is sort of further down. Xi’an’s in the middle, but inland, quite far. So landlocked, a city of 9 million people, and there are many, many, many cities of 9 million. That’s quite a small city in comparison. No one really speaks English. Very few Westerners. When you consider Hong Kong’s had maybe 100,000 expats, maybe there were 1,000 in Xi’an, tops. We lived in the hotel, but we lived in the residences at the end of the hotel. But it was sort of like being in the hotel still. It was just a huge culture shock for me, for all of us. Just thinking, “What are we doing here?” Just the noise was just crazy and chaotic. Just horns beeping 24/7 day and night because they tend to use the horn instead of the indicator. Traffic was just wild, careening all over the road. No lanes. No orderly driving. Bicycles with four or five people piled up high. Just so many people. We would step outside of the hotel and Ava and I were fair game, we were really pounced on because many people had never seen a White person in the flesh. Ava, this little pocket rocket that was three and a half with long blonde hair and fair skin, they would crowd around us, and take photos, and touch her, and touch her hair, and someone picked her up in that first week. I just remember being horrified thinking, “Oh my gosh! What are we doing? How am I going to survive?” I couldn’t speak any Mandarin at that point. It was just tough in the beginning. Joseph: I guess the closest I’ve experienced to that which isn’t quite the same level of difference you’re talking about here is, my wife is Turkish. I remember when we go to Turkey, people are just not that familiar with seeing somebody who looks like me. There’s a lot of people kind of hover around us. People are very friendly, but it’s also quite daunting and quite startling when people want to pick up your child and take them inside and take pictures. It’s kind of odd. Nicole: [20:22] It’s alarming. At first, I didn’t realize that it was harmless. I didn’t realize that it was just pure fascination. You’re on guard because you don’t know. I could just imagine losing Ava in those crowds of people. It was just terrifying. Until I understood what it was all about, which took quite some time to understand the culture, understand these people and how they feel and how they think, it was a real work in progress. Joseph: You’re in China. Are you then thinking that at this point, you’re going to be there temporarily? And then, what ended up coming up next for you guys? I think in 2017, you made another move. Is that right? Nicole: [31:17] We ended up spending two and a half years in Xi’an, which by the time we left, we really loved it. I mean look, it wasn’t Hong Kong, but we had sort of fallen in love. It had become our new normal because it was just crazy, but we had fallen in love with the crazy. We had made a lot of great friends there. Chinese locals and expats alike. We found our feet there and we’re enjoying it. I’d started writing my book because I decided I wanted to write a book. I just didn’t quite know what that would be. And as soon as we stepped foot on to Chinese soil, I knew it would be about the country. I started doing a lot of research even though I had no clue how to write a book. By the time I’d been there, about 18 months, I started doing interviews with all sorts of locals. From young women in China, to my local hairdresser, to an old war veteran. Just started trying to find out who these people were and how they felt about their country and their lives. Obviously, I had a translator. I could speak some Mandarin by the time we left, but obviously, not enough to do an interview. I spent a lot of time doing that. And then, James got offered a job in Sydney. Of course, we were sort of humming and harrying because we didn’t want to give up life overseas. But also, it’s very hard to get back to Australia and we didn’t want to miss our opportunity. And Ava was six and missing the grandparents. And so, we decided to say yes. It was with a bit of a heavy heart, but we thought, “It’s now or never.” So, it was goodbye, China. Joseph: Now, this is something I’ve always wondered about, Nicole. Because as you know, I’m from the United States, and I now live in the UK. I’ve always wondered what’s it like to go back to where you’re from after what seems like was quite an amazing and kind of incredible personal and professional journey through Hong Kong and China. When you stepped back in Australia, can you describe what that moment was like for you? What sort of feelings were you experiencing? Nicole: [33:19] It was very weird. It’s just same, same but not. We chose to live purposely in a suburb that we had never lived in before. Because I didn’t want to go full circle and go back to where we used to live because I almost felt like that would be forgetting what we’ve done. I didn’t want to forget it because it was such a big part of our lives and it was so, as you say, “amazing.” We chose this suburb that we didn’t know much about but seemed nice. It was just different because everything was in high definition. No pollution. Everything was so defined and sharp. The sky was so blue. We’ve been wearing masks in China because of the pollution. All of a sudden, I could speak to the doctors, and the hairdressers and that was an easy side. I hadn’t driven for seven years so that was challenging. I guess trying to explain to people what you’ve been through. It was lucky that quite a lot of people came to Hong Kong and a few came to China. Some good friends knew what it was like, but many didn’t and it’s really hard to explain to them what you’ve just been through. I guess a lot of people will expect you just to pick up where you left off, and you really can’t because you’ve changed so much and life is so different for you. People would always say, “You’re going to go back to Sky News.” I’d be like, “No, no. I don’t want to go back to Sky News.” I want to move forward and do different things. I think it took again a big adjustment to settle back in. Even just watching TV was quite jarring. The Australian accents and the news was quite colloquial, and now I watch it every night. But it was just so different to being overseas and not watching Chinese television because I couldn’t understand it. But just another world, I guess. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, can you also just explain what you’re now up to as a media publicist? What exactly are you now working on with authors? Nicole: [35:20] Because I published my memoir “China Blonde” last year in October, I did a lot of my own publicity because I know the media landscape here, and I know a lot of the journalists because they’re still around after 20 years which is great. I did my own publicity and got some good publicity. And then, I had a few other authors come to me and want me to do the same thing for them. I’m now working with a charity, “The Life You Can Save,” by philosopher Peter Singer, and philanthropist. He’s quite well-known. He’s written a book of the same name and they curate the most effective charities to donate to. I’m now working and doing their publicity for their book. I’ve since done a few other fiction and non-fiction authors. Just placing, getting them exposure, I guess on things like podcasts, and newspapers, and TV, and radio. I love doing that because it’s what I know and it’s fun and it’s easy for me. I’ve been doing, as I said, a few presenting gigs as well. So, getting back into the studio I did an ad tutorial the other week which was fun. One lesson I’ve learned is I told myself for 10 years, I don’t think I’d be able to read the auto queue anymore. It’s like I told myself this narrative that I couldn’t do it. The minute I stepped into Hong Kong, it was over. And then, when I went back to do it a few weeks ago, I was shocked that it was actually like riding a bike. I couldn’t believe that for 10 years, I’ve let myself believe that that was something that would be too difficult for me now. It’s a big lesson. I know you haven’t even asked me that yet. But just thinking about that is something that I only discovered very recently. I’m doing that, and media training corporate companies that need to know how to get their message across in the media, which is sort of everything coming into the fore and writing another book. Fingers in many pies. Joseph: Sounds like you’re very busy and involved with a lot of really interesting projects and initiatives. You mentioned lessons there, Nicole. I would love to talk just a little bit about some of the things you’ve learned along the way before we wrap up by talking a little bit more about “China Blonde.” I’d be curious to hear what is something that you have learned about yourself along this winding journey of yours. Nicole: [37:38] I think I’ve learned that I’m quite a chameleon and that I tend to fit in and adapt which is quite a powerful thing to know that nothing will be too hard. You’ll find your way around it. That’s as far as expat life goes or living anywhere, I guess. Work-wise, I think I’ve learned about myself that if I have a goal, I’m very single-minded and I find that the way that I achieve what I want to achieve is by sticking to that goal and persevering at any cost. Not giving up. Looking back to those early days when I got my first journalism job. Joseph: As you look back to those earlier days, if you can kind of think all the way back to your days in your 20s when you were working in Sydney, do you have any advice that you would give to your younger self as it relates to changing careers or relocating to a different country? And if so, what might that advice be? Nicole: [38:37] It will always work out. I think one piece of advice which is probably what my mum told me is that nothing’s forever. You can panic and get all worked up about, should we be moving to Hong Kong, or should we be changing jobs, or should we be doing something. But, at the end of the day, you take these leaps and you’re not stuck there forever. If it doesn’t work out, you can always change jobs. You can always leave the country and go somewhere else or go home. You’re never really stuck. Except of course in COVID. But generally, I think you should take these risks and take those. Step out of your comfort zone because generally what comes from that is always rewarding. And often, it’s far more rewarding. Even though it seems so difficult at the time to step out of your comfort zone, I think the rewards far outweigh any that say you procrastinated and didn’t do it. You would always be kicking yourself and wishing that you’d had the guts to do something. I think you’re better off jumping in head first, even if it is uncomfortable because the rewards will just be tenfold. Joseph: When you look back on your career transitions, what’s something that you wished you had known that you now know? Nicole: [39:54] Oh gosh! Every sort of piece of work that you do is all making up to be this whole sum of who you are. You’re not just one thing. We do tend to pigeonhole ourselves into certain things, don’t we? I think you are the sum of so many different things that everything really gravitates together to give you so much experience and, in more ways, than one, in life and work. And so, each step you take in life is just another notch in your belt really. I guess I didn’t know that when I was younger. You always worry about everything and worry what you’re doing, and is it the right thing. But it helps you grow, doesn’t it? Joseph: I want to wrap up, Nicole, by talking about one of your recent endeavors which you did allude to. But, wouldn’t mind talking a little bit more about your book, “China Blonde,” which you published last year. Can you just tell me what’s it about and how’s that journey been for you as an author? Nicole: [40:52] It’s a memoir. A snapshot of our time mainly in China for those two and a half years. I just wanted to I guess educate and entertain at the same time. I wanted to show people what the real Chinese are like. Because all we really hear is politics and the economy, and we don’t really know what the real people are like. I wanted to get that across and explain what they’re like. But also, it’s my journey and what it was like I guess as you we’ve talked about giving up my career and moving to Hong Kong and China, and finding my feet, and finding a sense of purpose, and all the crazy funny stories that happened and the places we visited. That’s what it really is, I guess. It took probably four years in the making from those very early days of writing, and researching, and interviewing. It wasn’t until I got back to Australia that I could really start doing some courses and learn the craft of actually writing a book, and putting chapters together, and all of that, which was just a whole other level. It’s been a really interesting journey. I’ve really learned so much. I still have a monthly writer’s workshop which I go to, and we have to submit 4,000 words, so it keeps you accountable. That’s what I’m doing and I’m writing fiction now and hoping that that will turn into something, and that’s based in Hong Kong. Joseph: Very interesting. For those people out there who are aspiring authors, do you have any quick tips? Nicole: [42:19] Just keep writing. Don’t stop. I think the difference between being an author and not is that the author didn’t stop. Because so many people, we start writing, we all think we’ve got a book, and after, we give up. Just finish it. Don’t worry too much about the first draft. Just get it all out and that can always be fine-tuned and edited and what have you. Joseph: I’m going to keep that in mind myself. If people want to learn more about you, Nicole, or your book, “China Blonde,” where can they go? Nicole: [42:46] Probably, the best place is “nicolewebbonline,” that’s my website. I’m on all the social medias as well. Instagram, nicolewebbonline, Facebook, and Twitter. Come and say hello. Joseph: Thank you so much, Nicole, for taking the time to tell us more about your life as an expat in Hong Kong and China, and how you managed to build a new life and career for yourself there. And also, back in Australia. Also, just the importance of going for it when you have an opportunity come up. I hope things go well with your book and your work as a media publicist and your advertorial work. Nicole: [43:20] Thank you so much for having me.

When you’re trying to build anything new, the hardest part is often getting started. In this episode of Career Relaunch®, Julia Taylor, a former US government defense intelligence officer turned web developer and founder shares her thoughts on building a helpful community, thinking outside of the box, and creating your first website. I also share some thoughts on the importance of being okay with taking imperfect actions and my own challenges I faced building my first website. Key Career Takeaways Just because you’ve never done something doesn’t mean you can’t do it in the future When it comes to community-building, there are no shortcuts around the blood, sweat, tears, and time required to fully engage with people Thinking outside the box of what you’ve assumed your career should look like can really open up new possibilities for your career and life It’s very easy to focus on what doesn’t go well, so it’s important to take a moment to be proud of the work you’re doing and progress you’re making Resources Mentioned How to Set Up Your First Website in 7 Steps– Joseph’s blog 8 Reasons I Left Rainmaker Platform for WordPress– that blog post I mentioned during the episode that I wrote about why I shifted to WordPress Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to think about something you’ve been trying to perfect before putting it out into the world–whether it’s your CV, social media profile, product, service, or website. Focus on getting a version out there that’s good enough. Sometimes referred to as a minimum viable product (or MVP), this can be something you feel may still need some work, but certainly won’t embarrass you. Try to just get the ball rolling on the idea, knowing that you’ll improve, refine, and rework it as you go. Instead of trying to start in the perfect place, in the perfect way, or on the perfect day, focus on just starting somewhere. I’m actually going to try and do this myself with a bit of a social media refresh I’m planning to tinker with in the upcoming months ahead. About Julia Taylor, found of Geeksquad Julia Taylor was an intelligence officer for the US Department of Defense with assignments in places including Kabul and Kandahar, Afghanistan. She eventually met her husband during one of her deployments, moved to the UK, and went through a transitional period where she bounced around a bit with some 9-5 jobs, before eventually moving to North Carolina where she began building websites. She’s now the CEO & Founder of GeekPack®, focused on empowering women & girls to change their lives for the better through the power of code, community & confidence. As a (former) military wife, self-taught web developer, and lover of location independence, Julia has taught over 2,500 women to not only master WordPress but also take control of their lives and live by their own terms. Learn more about her GeekForGeek Grant Program providing women access to the WP Rockstar Program and 6 months membership in her private GeekPack® community. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Julia know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Interview Segment Music Credits Hazy – Dreamer Ever So Blue – Calme Podington Bear – Sidecar Ecovillage – Unending Love Lama House – Sola Ventus Infraction – Last Hope Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I wish that I had given myself a little bit more credit and thought outside the box. I didn’t really know anything different at the time. It was just one of those experiences that I needed to go through. That was part of my journey to get to where I am now. Joseph: Let’s start by talking a little bit about what you have been focused on recently in your career and your life, and then we’re going to go back in time and talk about your very interesting career trajectory. What has been keeping you busy lately? Julia: [02:38] I love this time of year because I get to reflect on what I’ve done and my team, what we’ve accomplished. Also, look forward to what we want to do in the future. I’m doing a lot of that right now, and it’s really exciting. It starts out being a bit overwhelming, and then as I start to dig in and chat with different team members and some coaches and kind of identify next steps, it does get really exciting. That’s really where I am now. I got a couple priorities that I’m focused on. Professionally, my big priority is focusing on my team. I’m a big believer that if I can build a solid, supported, and encouraged team of folks who love what they do and believe in the mission and vision of my company, GeekPack, that will trickle down to my community. That’s been working for the last couple of years, so I spend a lot of time and energy focused on my team, empowering them, making sure that they’re happy and they feel supported. That’s my big focus, professionally. Personally, I’m in a really fortunate position to be able to — I don’t want to say “step back,” but because I can empower my team so much and give them more responsibility, I’m actually able to have a much better work-life balance than I’ve ever had before. That’s been a big priority this past year and will continue to be, so I can really be the visionary and not so much in the weeds and move the business forward and reach our vision. That’s been what I’ve been working on. Joseph: Is your team based where you are, physically and geographically, or are they spread out everywhere? Julia: [04:18] All over the world. I’m in Colorado. I’ve got a team member in Florida. We’ve got one in Canada. We’ve got one in the UK, and we’ve got two in Australia. I’ve got another one on the East Coast. Someone in Texas. Literally, all over the world. Joseph: I know that one of the things that you’re really passionate about is the independence of working wherever you want to. I think you refer to as “location independent.” We’re going to come back to that and talk about how you’ve done that in your own life. It sounds like you’re bringing that to life with your team. too. That’s really cool. Also, GeekPack, can you just give us a snapshot of what exactly you do as the CEO and founder of GeekPack? What do you do for your clients? Julia: [05:00] The mission of GeekPack is we empower women in tech to get into tech. Anyone who has ever dabbled in anything kind of techy in the past, or maybe they didn’t get into anything techy because maybe they weren’t very good at math when they were a kid, and someone said to them, “You’re never going to be good at tech,” that sort of thing. Anyone who wants to give tech a go. We primarily focus on coding. We teach web development. We teach coding languages. We just empower women to learn these hard skills that they can then use whether it’s in a 9-to-5 job, or they want to start their own online business, and they learn these skills with a community around them. That’s what GeekPack is. It’s a community where people can ask the “silly questions” that normally they might be terrified to ask because someone might be rude, or they might laugh at them. There’s none of that allowed in my community. We support one another, we encourage each other. We’re there when there’s wins and when there’s lows, answering questions, and all that goes along with learning these skills, but also finding clients and finding work. That’s what GeekPack is. Joseph: Very cool. What a great mission that you’ve got out there. I think that that’s especially important these days, just empowering people to be able to have the tools to create their own websites and to learn how to code. It seems like it’s a very current necessary skill these days that pretty much I guess all of us need to have. I have zero of those skills. Now, you haven’t always been the founder of GeekPack, Julia. I would love to go back in time and talk about your chapter in your career when you are actually a defense intelligence officer. Let’s talk about that and then we can move forward from there. What exactly were you doing as a defense intelligence officer? Julia: [06:57] Back in about 2006, when I joined the U.S. government and joined the Department of Defense as an intelligence officer. It was an amazing job. I got to travel all over the world. I actually deployed to Afghanistan twice, which was a real honor to get to go there and work with everyone there and the mission that we were doing. This was back in 2008, ’09, and 2010. Kind of at the height of when stuff was going on in Afghanistan. I was an intelligence officer, so I worked with lots of different intelligence agencies. We collected as much information as possible to put together packages that we would then pass on to a military unit that would then go in and action that intelligence. That’s probably the best way to explain what I did. I did a lot of high-level briefings. I would brief generals and go to the Pentagon and things like that. From very high-level strategic stuff, all the way down to tactical kind of stuff that was going on the ground when I was in-country. A very wide range of stuff that I got to do. Very, very privileged position. Joseph: How did you get into that line of work? Is that something that you had thought you wanted to do when you grew up or were you thinking about this in university or college? Julia: [08:30] When I was growing up, my mom was a flight attendant for Delta. She flew my whole life as I was growing up. My dad, he was a stay-at-home dad with me and my brother. And because she was a flight attendant, we got to fly for free. All growing up, I have always traveled. I have been incredibly fortunate to get to travel all over the world. I think I always had that kind of interest and that bug in me to travel. When I was in college, I decided to study Russian. The only reason I did is I looked into it and it had a very high percentage of people getting As, and I feel terrible admitting that. But I thought, “Oh, that would be a cool thing to do.” For some reason, I always thought I would work for the foreign service, that I would work for the state department and travel. I was lucky enough to get an internship with the state department back when I was in college, and I lived in Armenia. For a summer and did that, and I very quickly realized I did not want to do that job. I thought, “Oh, maybe something in the intelligence community would be cool.” I learned Russian, and I got a government grant. They sent me to Russia to live there for a year to learn the language. That kind of led me into working for the government. It all worked out well and I was just in the right place at the right time. I got a great position with the Department of Defense, and I got to do that for a handful of years and travel and deploy. It was a fantastic opportunity. Joseph: Before we talk about your transition, I just got to ask you because I know very little about the military or even the intelligence community. Aside from the kind of stuff I see on like TV, or I’m thinking of “Jack Ryan,” are there any sort of misconceptions that exist about what any intelligence officer does? Julia: [10:24] 100%. Every misconception you can imagine. Everything you see in Hollywood, I would say 90% of that is not possible. But they sure make it look good. Nothing kind of moves as quickly as it does in Hollywood. And you’re right, “Jack Ryan” and “24” and “Homeland,” all those. They’re amazing TV shows. I would watch them, and I would think to myself, “Why didn’t we have that asset? Why didn’t it move that quick?” But it’s just not feasible. I mean, at the end of the day, working for the government, it is a huge machine, working for the military. Things take time, decisions take time. The only time when anything ever moved quickly and was anything remotely similar to what you see in Hollywood was when I was deployed. Even then, it was probably just kind of 10% similar, but still very cool to kind of know how it happens. We’ve got a lot of pretty incredible gadgets and tech stuff that can happen that the government can use. But it’s nothing like what you see in Hollywood. I wish it was. Maybe we’re getting closer, but Hollywood has a good way of exaggerating all that. Joseph: Can you also just give a glimpse into what your setup was. Were you on the field? Were you in an office? Were you in a tent? What was your physical setup when you were deployed? Julia: [11:51] My first deployment was in Kabul, in the capital. We were on a base, and I was in a building. From the inside, you would never know the difference. It was kind of technically within something called a “skiff” for years. I probably couldn’t tell you what that stands for, but it was a secure compartmented environment. But, apart from that, it just looked like any other open floor plan, office space with lots of computers. Occasionally, when I was deployed both times, I would get to go out and go to different FOBs, Forward Operating Bases, places that had tents. That’s where they kind of operated out of, and I would spend a couple days here and there. But, for the most part, I was in like an office building. In my second deployment, I was down in Kandahar in the south. That was a much, much bigger, huge, base. It was a town, pretty much. I mean there was a Pizza Hut. There was a coffee shop. There were all the western amenities you could think of. You could get there on base, but yet you were in the middle of the desert in Afghanistan. Two different experiences, but both times, it’s a pretty much just an office setup. Lots of TVs, big screens all around where you can kind of watch things that were going on the ground. But, for the most part, pretty much just an office. Joseph: At what point did you start to think about doing something differently? I understand you were doing this for a few years, but you eventually went through a bit of a transition. Julia: [13:26] While I was deployed my first time in 2008 in Kabul, I met a guy who is now my husband. We just celebrated 10 years of marriage. Joseph: Congratulations. Julia: [13:37] Thank you. We met. He’s British. That’s kind of where the story takes a bit of a turn. Of course, he was in the military. He has since retired. Him being British, and both of us being in jobs that traveled a lot and deployed a lot, it didn’t work very well, personally. We had great professional careers, but personally, it was tough, the long-distance and everything else. I made the decision to leave my job with the government and move to the UK, and we got married. I became a military wife which is one of the things I’m most proud of. But my career progression took a real nosedive. As anyone who is familiar with what it’s like being in the military, you move a lot. We did. We moved a lot. I found myself jumping from one kind of 9-to-5 to another with zero career progression. That took a real toll, and we did that for a few years. That was kind of my in-between time of “what am I going to do” and “how do I have career progression for myself” while we move all the time. Because remote work wasn’t a big thing back then. I was really kind of lost on the professional side. Joseph: Can you remember the moment when you decided that, “Hey, I got to do something about this. I can’t keep bouncing from one job to another.” Is there a particular moment that stands out in your mind? Julia: [15:13] Yes. I can remember it like it was yesterday. I wish it was one of these moments where the heavens opened, and doves came flying in. It was definitely an a-ha moment, but things didn’t change immediately. It still took time, but gosh, this must have been 2014 and I was in one of these 9-to-5s. I was in the job. Now, granted I had no tech background. When I worked for the government, I didn’t do anything techy. I didn’t do anything with code. When I went to college, I didn’t have anything. I’d never looked at or done anything with any code, or websites, or anything like that. That was all completely new to me. I was working away and my boss walks in. He says that he wanted his business’s website to have this functionality. He told me to do it. I knew what he was asking for, but I had no idea how to achieve it. Joseph: What was your actual role at the time when he asked? Julia: [16:20] I was a business analyst. Nothing techy at all. We would go out and work with local businesses and get them involved with what we were doing in the unit as part of the university. Nothing to do with websites or anything techy. And, why he thought I would know how to do this, I have no idea. But it was a gift. He asked me to do this thing and it worked out. I remember thinking, “What do I do now?” I look to my colleague who sat next to me, and he is a bit more techy than I was. He said, “Don’t worry. Let’s google it and we’ll figure it out.” Sure enough, I know how to google. I googled exactly what my boss had asked me to do. What it was when you’re on a website and there’s like an FAQ and there’s the kind of drop-down, like the plus/minus. That sort of thing. That’s what he asked for. I googled that and I found this line of code, and I took this. I copied it and I pasted it into the back end of the website, and I hit “save.” Then I refreshed the website and it worked. That was the moment where I had this like, “Oh, my gosh! I just googled something that created this thing, that someone asked for.” I had no idea what I was doing, but I was able to google it and problem solved and figured it out. The result was right there in front of me, and it was a magical moment. That was when I thought to myself, “Wow! If I can learn more about this, maybe this is a skill that I could then use to get a remote job to where I could work from anywhere.” It was that moment of, “Okay. This could be the thing.” Of course, what my current career has turned into is very different than what I thought it would back then. But that was the moment when I realized that I just did something based on what I learned on Google, created a result, and I saw the results right there on the screen. And I thought maybe this could be something. Joseph: At that moment, you’re realizing that, “Okay. I’ve got the ability to figure this stuff out. I can start to tweak code on a website.” What happened next for you in terms of your actual career track, and what you did about this once you figured this out? Julia: [18:44] I learned as much as I could. I took all the free coding classes I could find, all the resources, and I built websites from the ground up. I did all the things that I thought I needed to do to know enough to get a job. In my head, this whole time I’m thinking to myself, “I will get a job. I will be an employee. I will work in a 9-to-5 but I will be remote.” There was nothing in me that thought I could be an entrepreneur. There was nothing in me that thought I could have an online business that I ran. That never was that something I considered because I don’t know anyone that did that. Of course, you hear “online business,” I’m like, “Oh, that’s a total scam!” All those things. That was not an option for me. I learned as much as I could. And then, I started applying for jobs. I probably applied for like 200 jobs, and I didn’t hear back from any. Joseph: Okay. This is all in the UK? Julia: [19:41] This was partly in the UK, and then we moved. My husband’s last job in the military before I retired was in the U.S. We were in North Carolina, so it was kind of overlapping that time. We moved to the U.S., and I’m still looking for remote work. Where we ended up in North Carolina, the closest place where I could have worked in an office doing anything tech-related was about an hour away. I didn’t want to commute that long, so I’m still applying for remote jobs and nothing’s coming through. It was really, really discouraging as you can imagine. Here, I’d learned all these skills and I thought I was doing all the right things, and no one would even glance at my resume. It was only when a colleague of my husband’s, retired from the military, and he was starting his own business. He said to me, “You know, I know you know how to build websites. Will you build mine?” I said to him, “That’s not a real thing.” I said, “You know I can’t do that.” I had every excuse possible, and he convinced me. Sure enough, I did. I built his website and he loved it. He said, “Why don’t you do this? Why don’t you start your own business? Working with other business owners who need websites, and need tech help, and all that?” I pushed back, but I finally gave it a go. That was the start of me building my agency which then led into me transitioning into education. Now, I teach women how to do exactly what I did build an online business. They can do from anywhere. They can work as much as they want, as little as they want, building websites, learning to code, troubleshooting, problem-solving. Anything tech-related, they can do because they know how to code. They know how to problem-solve. They have the confidence, and that’s what I get to do now every day. Joseph: You’re actually coaching these women on the actual services that you were once providing to your clients, like building websites and helping them with the technical side of things. Is that right? Julia: [21:44] Exactly. What I’m a big believer in now is it took me years to learn the skills to have the confidence and the gumption to put myself out there and to find clients and build a business, years. What I’m trying to do for them is cut that time way down to months. One thing that I did not have when I was learning and building the business was a community. Everything took me so much longer because I didn’t have anyone to bounce ideas off of, or ask questions, or get support, or just get another set of eyes on some code that wasn’t working. You know you can go cross-eyed looking at it. Someone else can go, “Oh, it’s just this small thing here.” When I wanted to do something and educate and get into the kind of teaching realm, my priority, my main thing was creating a community. The program, teaching them the skills, WordPress development specifically, and all the tech that goes along with that, was secondary to the community. It was pretty much everything that I wish that I had when I was going through the process is what I’ve created. Joseph: This is a good segue into the next topic I was hoping to cover with you, Julia, which is how you built up your business. What I’d like to focus on is how you built up your community. Because it sounds like you did go through that whole process of and I guess struggling through the process of trying to find your clients, build up your business. How exactly did you build the community? Julia: [23:20] It goes back to October of 2018. We just hit three years of the community. To be honest, it was a lot of my time. As I mentioned at the beginning, something that I’ve been working on a lot recently is a better work-life balance because I didn’t have that when I first started the community. It’s a Facebook group, it’s a private Facebook group for members who joined the program, and it worked great. I mean, thank you, Mark Zuckerberg, for being able to use that platform. Because people are already there. It’s a great platform to be able to use that. Honestly, the first year and a half, I was in there every single day as often as possible answering questions, supporting people, going live, providing as much value as possible. I think that’s one of the lessons that I learned early on when I got into setting up an online business. Whether I was trying to find my own clients or working with students is adding value. Coming to the table with value first rather than asking for something. I have a coach who I learned from and that’s what she always did, was lead with value. I’ve followed that, and every single thing that I do, I try my hardest to lead value because I want people to see that there is real value. We’re not we’re not just asking for money or whatever. Look at this value that we will provide for no cost. If it’s something that you think you might enjoy and get a kick out of and want to learn more, great! We have those opportunities. But any opportunity to lead with value — and that’s what I’ve always done in the community is try and be as valuable as possible. Any experience that I’ve had in the past that I can share with them, and my community members, like I am very honest and transparent with them. The number of times that I will cry when I’m on a live telling them about something that didn’t work or did work, or wins and things, lessons learned. I’ve had a lot of amazing wins, and I’ve learned a lot of lessons over the years, and I share all of that with my community. I try and be as transparent and authentic as possible, and just lead with value. Those are the things that I’ve done, and it’s worked. Now, as I said at the beginning, I’m able to focus on my team because they then pour all their value into the community. I now have that barrier where I can focus on my team and then they focus on the community so that we kind of have a triangle effect. That’s worked well. Leading with value is probably the best thing I’ve ever done. Joseph: I’ve gone through a bit of a journey myself with this whole community idea. I love the idea of building a community of followers and engaged people who are sharing ideas, and asking questions, and having this community forum. I attempted this myself a few years ago, and I found it very challenging, Julia. I remember when I even explored some plug-ins on my site. I think there are a couple like Memberships Pro, and there’s another one called I think BuddyPress, and like MemberPress on my WordPress site. What did you find to be the most challenging part of building up a community? Julia: [26:52] I honestly think it was just the amount of time that I spent in there personally. There is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that goes into it initially to get it working well. Once that was working, I could bring in other team members who felt as strongly about the community, the mission, our core values, and our vision as I did, to take my place so that I could focus on other things. There’s a lot of sweat equity that went into that community. I believe that if you want a solid community like that, you got to be willing to put in that time or pay someone else to put in the time. But if you want to be the face, a face for people to kind of rally around, then it is a lot of time to put in. Joseph: Helpful to know. It’s become very clear to me why my community didn’t get built up online because I guess those couple things you mentioned is just like another platform. I was on a platform I think called “Rainmaker,” which I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It was very complicated to use, and I did not have much luck attracting people into that community of users. Also, just the time of just monitoring it and managing it, and I just didn’t have the bandwidth to do it. It sounds like there’s really no replacement for hard work and getting in there every day and engaging with people. That’s a good tip. Okay. Before I talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career journey, Julia, I can’t let you go without asking you a few questions about websites. Because we do have listeners here who listen to the show, and they’re thinking about making a change. I just read an article in the Wallstreet Journal about record numbers of people leaving the corporate world to run their own businesses, or to work for themselves, or to become their own bosses. Part of that is having your own website. I remember when I first started my business as a career coach, a lot of other coaches at the time — this was around 2013, I said I didn’t have to have a website which I thought as someone myself who focuses on personal branding, I thought that was poor advice. I feel like if you’re running your own business, you absolutely have to have a website. What would you say to someone who’s thinking about building a website and wrestling with whether they should do it themselves or whether they should hire someone else to do it for them? I ask this as someone myself who has done both. Julia: [29:29] I would say it comes down to time and budget. If you have the time and you do not have the budget to get someone else to do it — I say budget and that’s very broad. The prices range from $500 to $50 grand. People always ask me, “How much does it cost to build a website?” Well, it depends on the functionality and what you’re trying to get out of it, and then experience level and all that. Time and budget are what it comes down to. If you don’t have the time and you have budget, then hire it out because it can be super frustrating. I mean the amount of times I do this for a living, and the amount of times that I want to pull my hair out is remarkable. I can only imagine other people trying to build their own website. Regardless of platform, it can be incredibly frustrating. I would just say time and budget really depends. Joseph: Have you noticed any common pitfalls that people tend to make when they are creating their first website? Julia: [30:35] Updating, not maintaining the website after it is up and running. Particularly with WordPress. Because WordPress is a free platform which is awesome. It’s opensource, it’s free. Now, I say that lightly because if you want a website on the internet, you do have to rent space on the internet through a hosting provider and you have to have a domain name, www.geekpack.co, for example, that you also pay for. It can be super low cost. But with WordPress, because it is opensource, it’s constantly being updated. There are plugins, there’s themes, there’s core files, there’s PHP. There are so many things that have to be updated. WordPress gets hacked all the time. It is the most popular website building platform, period. Like 45% of all websites in the world are built with WordPress. It’s only growing. It’s only becoming more and more popular. But because it’s so popular, hackers are constantly trying to put malware into different applications. All of that can be avoided so long as you just do some simple things like updating everything that needs to be updated with the WordPress site: the plugins, the themes, all the core files, a way of having security. Whether that’s with your hosting provider or a free security plugin. My favorite is called “Wordfence.” Joseph: That’s what I use. Good. Julia: [32:02] Yes. It’s a good one. Joseph: It’s the right one. Good. Julia: [32:05] And having backups regular backups. Again, some hosting providers do those, but there’s also a free plug-in called UpdraftPlus, which does backups. You’re set. Those are the amount of times I would clean up hacked websites was ridiculous. I teach my students how to do that because it’s a lucrative thing to know because it happens so often, but it doesn’t have to. It’s 10 minutes a month sort of job to not have to deal with all the headaches. Joseph: I can vouch for that, Julia. Because my web guys are constantly trying to remind me that we need to go in and just make sure everything’s updated on my site. I always ask them, “Do we really have to do this on a monthly basis?” They said, “Yeah, you really should.” And then, I don’t listen to them and then something breaks my website, and this is happening repeatedly. Last question about websites, and I do want to get back to your career and what you’ve learned along the way. You mentioned “website building platforms.” Now, the way I think about this as a layperson is you’ve got these out-of-the-box solutions like Squarespace or Wix. And then, you’ve got I don’t even know what you call it, but you’ve got more of the WordPress platform which is as you mentioned opensource. Probably takes a little bit more work if you don’t have any knowledge of coding or HTML. Do you have any perspectives or opinions on if somebody’s doing their first site whether they should be on something like a Squarespace or Wix, or if they should be on WordPress? Julia: [33:31] Shy away from Wix. Squarespace is a fantastic platform. It serves a great purpose. It is user-friendly. It’s easy. You pay a certain amount. It is more expensive than WordPress. You pay a certain amount and just drag and drop, and everything is done, and the setup and everything. However, I love WordPress. As I said, the popularity of WordPress is only growing. I do have some gripes with it. It is not user-friendly. I don’t know why they make it so complicated. I say it’s complicated. If someone who knows WordPress can show you around and explain it, you would have this light bulb moment of, “Oh! I got it. It’s not as hard as I thought,” sort of thing. But they don’t make it all that easy out of the box. People have, “You know I got so many Instagram followers!” If you rely on external platforms for clients, for students, for marketing, for whatever, you could lose that option at any given moment. Facebook can go down, Instagram, like all of those things can shut down. The example is if you look at Shopify, Squarespace, Wix, Weebly, those are external platforms where technically you own your website, but if you want to take your website and all your files and all your data kind of off of their platform, it is very, very complicated. Moving from one platform to another is time-consuming and complicated, and it’s not easy at all. But with WordPress, you can literally take your website, you can put in a suitcase, and you can walk over to another hosting platform, and you can put it there. You can have all of your website files on your desktop computer. You can have them all on your Google Drive as a backup. You own your data and you have it in a neat little suitcase that you can take anywhere. Whereas, with the others, you could lose that at any moment. Just like with Facebook and it going down in the world, and the world stopping. That’s just a plug for it. On top of that, it is scalable. On WordPress, you could have a one-page website, or you could have a Fortune 500, billion-dollar company on there using it and it works. You can have eCommerce. You can sell products. Pretty much anything you can imagine. You can do on WordPress. And because the code is opensource, if you know how to code and you know the ins and outs of WordPress, you can customize it. That’s why I love it. Joseph: Everything you just said, Julia, I wish I would have heard about seven years ago when I went with one of these platforms. I mentioned I was on Rainmaker and getting off that platform was a complete nightmare. It was the bane of my existence for a year, and it was very complicated. I went over to WordPress, and never again. I will always remain with WordPress from here on out. Very useful advice and I can personally vouch for everything you’ve just said. Very helpful. The last thing I want to talk about with you, Julia, before we wrap up with one of the interesting initiatives you’ve got at GeekPack is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very unique career journey, going from the military over to what you’re doing right now at GeekPack. You mentioned that when you were going through that process of applying to jobs, you said something like applying to 200 applications. Looking back on that experience, is there anything that you would have done differently? Julia: [37:08] I think now it’s a lot more common, especially with COVID, to work remote or to start your own business. I wish that I had given myself a little bit more credit and thought outside the box. I didn’t really know anything different at the time. I don’t think that I could have done much different. I didn’t have a degree. Could I have gone back to school and got a computer science degree? I guess I could have, but I’m so glad I didn’t. Other than just believing in myself a little bit more, it was just one of those experiences that I needed to go through. That was part of my journey to get to where I am now. To be able to tell that to my students that there is so much more, and they can do so much more than they ever thought. I didn’t think outside the box, so I try to help them think outside the box as much as possible. Joseph: The other thing that you mentioned earlier was that, when we spoke before, we started recording. You mentioned that you had no idea that you could even run an online business. What surprised you the most about creating and running your own online business that is geographically agnostic and independent? Julia: [38:27] I think the thing that surprised me the most was that there were actual real human people out there who would take a chance on me and pay me to do a service for them. That blew me away. I did I just didn’t think that would be a thing to know that someone else would say yes to me to do something for them that I’d taught myself to do. I’m still kind of like, “Oh, wow! Yeah, that really happened.” Joseph: The last thing I want to wrap up with is just one of the very interesting initiatives that you’ve got going on at GeekPack. Can you tell me a little bit more about the “Geek for Geek Initiative”? Julia: [39:07] This is the thing I’m so excited about. We just recently launched this. What it is I always thought that my dream for GeekPack would be to keep doing what we’re doing. But if I could eventually one day start a non-profit arm to GeekPack, that would just be dream come true. I spoke to a couple of people about setting up a non-profit and come to find out it’s a real pain to set up to run, to manage, all the bureaucracy and everything that goes along with it. I thought, “Oh, well, that’s a shame.” In any way that I could give back, I wanted to do, and I felt kind of deflated. I was listening to a podcast with Blake Mikowski. I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing his last name correctly. He’s the founder of TOM’s shoes. This is the company where they gave lots of shoes. If you buy a pair of shoes, they give a pair of shoes to children in need. This is a one-for-one model. Now, he didn’t create the one-for-one model, but he definitely popularized it. It became huge. When I heard this interview with him, I thought to myself, “Well, hang on. Why would I create a non-profit that has all this extra bureaucracy when I’m in the very fortunate position to be able to have my for-profit business and give back in a social entrepreneur way? I don’t have to be governed. It’s my choice because I am able to and because I want to.” I took his idea, ran with it, and went with a program called “Geek for Geek.” It’s a real good example of taking imperfect action. I am a recovering perfectionist, and this is a good example of something that I’ve done. Of course, I want the Geek for Geek program to be kind of set up exactly right and how it’s going to run forever. But I know that’s not realistic and I’ve learned that over the years. We recently had an event a couple months ago called “Geekapalooza.” We got to launch the Geek for Geek Initiative during this event. As you can tell, there’s a lot of “geeks” that goes into my brand. It’s a great thing to get behind. I’m based in Colorado, and there’s an international non-profit called “Dress for Success.” They work with women in lower-income kind of situations and financial struggles. Initially, they started a non-profit to provide them with suits and kind of business attire to go in for interviews. They’ve expanded since then, and they support women who need support and help when it comes to finding work, or starting a business, and getting promotions, and things like that. I reached out to them in Denver. I just said, “Hey, you know I’d like to launch this program. Would you be willing to partner?” Sure enough, they said yes! We got to take 20 women from Dress for Success, we got to invite them into my WordPress development program, teaching them how to build websites and start their own online business. We got to do that back in October. It was just such a joy to get to do that. They’re now learning these skills that they wouldn’t normally get to. We invited them in, free of charge. That’s an initiative that we plan on continuing on. If I could plug anything, it would be if anyone knows many non-profits that work with women, to empower them, to women who are in tough financial situations that just need a bit of help and a bit of support, I would love to partner with them in the Geek for Geek Initiative. Joseph: If they want to learn more about you or if we’ve got listeners who want to learn more about GeekPack or the Geek for Geek Initiative, where’s the best place that they can go? Julia: [43:09] My website, geekpack.co, is the best place to go. Joseph: I got one more question I’m going to sneak in here, Julia. Because I’m listening to you describe all these cool initiatives that you’ve created, not only creating GeekPack, but also this Geek for Geek initiative, I know earlier you mentioned that you never thought that you were going to become an entrepreneur. I’m just curious, what have you learned about yourself along the way of your very interesting and entrepreneurial journey? Julia: [43:37] That I am a lot stronger and more resilient than I ever gave myself credit for. Even with the job that I did for the government and in all the things that I did after that. Running a business, and having a team, and having a brand that I’m incredibly proud of the brand and the people I get to work with, and the community that I get to have. As uncomfortable as it is to say, the lives that we get to change. I’m uncomfortable saying it because it feels a little big-headed, and that’s never at all what I want to sound. But that’s what I get to do all the time. I never, years ago, would have thought that I could do that, that I could empower women, but I am a lot stronger and a lot more resilient than I ever gave myself credit. That’s something I have to remind myself of regularly. It’s very easy to focus on the negative or things that don’t go well. But I do try and reflect and think back and be proud of what I’ve built, and be proud of my team, and the community that we have, and the women that we get to teach and see their wins and the constant, “I just landed my biggest client!” Or “I now make more than I ever did in my day job!” Testimonials like that is because I took a chance on myself, and it’s worked out well. Joseph: It does sound like you’re having a huge impact on a lot of people out there, Julia. I just got to commend you for all the work that you’re doing. I just wanted to thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to tell us more about your life as an intelligence officer formerly and the steps you took to pave a new path in your career, and how you went about building a community of engaged women empowered to code and help others create their own websites. Best of luck with GeekPack, and the Geek for Geek Initiative, and the continually growing community that you’ve built. Julia: [45:41] Thank you very much. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

How much should a company’s culture factor into your decision to work there? A lot it turns out. Civil engineer turned software developer Aimi Elias explains the importance of feeling like you fit into your workplace and the role culture plays in your day-to-day job satisfaction. Afterwards, I’ll share my own thoughts on how culture has had an impact on me during my own professional pivots. Aimi’s actually a long-time listener of this show, and we first connected when she dropped me a note last year mentioning how Career Relaunch podcast episode 8 (featuring Zai Divecha) got her thinking about her own moments of flow, including those moments when she lost track of time as a teenager tinkering around with code. Now, many years later, she’s tapped back into her own flow state working on software development and machine learning at Sky. Key Career Takeaways Although a job can sound “cool” and interesting on paper, it doesn’t mean the day-to-day realities of that work will necessarily be interesting to you. The cultural influences of your company can have a huge impact on your day-to-day satisfaction and comfort in a job. While securing a sought-after certification or credential in your field may seem like a way of dealing with job dissatisfaction, it only goes so far if you’re still fundamentally misplaced in the wrong sector. Tweetables to Share I didn't realise how much of my identity was tied to my career until I changed careers. Aimi Elias Tweet This Resources Interested in shifting into a tech career? Learn more about Sky’s Get into Tech programme that Aimi mentioned. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of considering whether your current job is moving you closer to or farther from the type of person you want to be in your life and career. Do you like the person you’re becoming? Or do you feel more like you’re having to put on an act to fit into your role or organisation by being someone you’re not? If you feel like your work is turning you into someone you don’t like, aside from actually leaving that job behind, consider what change you could make to your way of working, your mindset about work, or your attitude toward your job that could enable you to live your life in a way that makes you proud, or at the very least, you won’t eventually regret in the long run. About Aimi Elias Aimi Elias is a software developer at Sky, part of the Comcast Corporation, and one of Europe’s leading media and entertainment companies. Prior to this, she spent six years working as a civil engineer after graduating from Imperial College, when she worked for Transport For London, the government body responsible for most of the transport network in London, England. She worked on railway projects such as the Crossrail and station upgrades for the London Underground. Then, in 2017, she joined the Get Into Tech programme, a 14 week introduction to software development run by Sky alongside her full time job. This eventually led acceptance into a graduate programme at Sky, where she is a now a backend Python developer for Sky’s e-commerce platform for their online streaming service. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Aimi know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Interview Segment Music Credits Arden Forest – Slow Moves Two Rivers – Ciaran Delany Paintings – Ookean Presence – Ambientalism Trellis – Podington Bear Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I’ve been a minority all my life in wherever I go. I’m kind of used to it. The difference is when it’s affecting directly how people perceive you in a career sense, all of a sudden, it feels very loud. Aimi: [02:37] Thanks for having me. Joseph: I want to talk about a lot of different things with you today. We’re going to talk about your career in civil engineering, and then also your shift to coding in a completely different industry. I was wondering if you could start off by first of all just telling me what’s been keeping you occupied in your life, both work and also personal lately. Aimi: [02:56] I currently work for Sky as a back-end developer. I work on the e-commerce platform for their online streaming service. We deal with the catalog of products and offers that customers can purchase from wherever they are in different territories. For example, in the UK Island and some European countries, provide content for Sky, and in the US, we provide content by NBCU, that’s NBC Universal. In my spare time, particularly the last two years, I’ve been working on my MSC, part-time. This is an MSC in Computer Science, as I don’t have a background in computer science. I decided to do this to upskill myself. I didn’t know at the time that we would be in the midst of all of this craziness, but it helped that I could spend more time on it at home. I’ve just finished that, and I’m glad that section of life is over and I don’t have to sit any more academic exams. That’s what I’ve been working on mostly. Joseph: Can you also just tell me a little bit about your background? Aimi: [04:08] My family are from Malaysia. They came to London I think in 1982. My parents met here as young people like on a course, and they ended up staying here. Myself and my brother were both born in London. Joseph: Let’s just go back in time a little bit. Because you haven’t always been a software developer. Could you tell me a little bit about your 6-year career in civil engineering, which is what you were doing before? And then, we could move forward from there. Aimi: [04:37] I graduated in civil engineering at Imperial. It’s the kind of degree where you immediately have a lot of opportunities in terms of jobs. The natural progression seemed to be get a job in civil engineering. I had spent every summer working in a design consultancy, so it didn’t seem like a bad idea considering I had some work experience to try that. However, when I graduated, it was 2010, and jobs was becoming quite scarce. We had the recession at that time. Nothing like what people are experiencing right now I’m sure, but it was still one of those times where it was quite difficult. When I did manage to get a job at Transport for London, I obviously took it because you couldn’t exactly complain. Joseph: Transport for London is a TFL, I guess. It’s the largest government provider of transportation services in the country. Aimi: [05:39] That’s right. Transport for London, look after London Underground, the buses, the cycle hire scheme and the cycle superhighways, for example. A lot of roads in London, they cover a lot of bases. I was positioned in London Underground, the London Underground graduate scheme, which was a 3-year graduate scheme. I met people of my own age who had also left university. Having done civil engineering, it was a scheme where I managed to do lots of different things and it was really interesting. I worked on Crossrail, which is a brand new railway line that transports people from east to west London. On London Underground, station upgrades, and I could have talked all day about how cool it was. People thought my job was really cool, but the day-to-day reality of it wasn’t that interesting to me. I just sort of went with it. All the signs were saying, “Oh, you’re doing really well.” People will tell me, “You’re doing really well. Just keep going. It’s fine.” My parents would say, “Oh, you’re doing so…”. You just get all these positive signals that everything’s fine, so you just keep going. The natural route in engineering is to also get charted. Civil engineers get charted with the Institution of Civil Engineers. I did a lot of work with them you know work towards this professional qualification. When I achieved that qualification, nothing was different. I expected I don’t know work to suddenly become more interesting or stuff to be more challenging, but it didn’t happen. Joseph: Is that certification a barrier to entry for more senior roles, or is it like a stamp of approval? Aimi: [07:31] It’s a bit of both. I think for some roles, it can be a barrier to entry. It doesn’t mean that people don’t progress without it. Many experienced engineers do not have this qualification. Sometimes, they take a different route to get there. But there can be jobs that require it as part of their job spec. Joseph: Okay. You’re working on the Crossrail which was probably, in recent years, has been the most major, publicly impactful project to create, that high-speed rail network to connect people outside of London into London. More convenient station upgrades for TFL. That sounds great and exciting on the surface, but you weren’t feeling super satisfied inside. Can you put into words what exactly did you not like about your day-to-day job? Aimi: [08:18] It’s kind of a tricky one to describe because it’s not that the work wasn’t interesting, it’s just that it’s such a huge project that you end up doing quite a small play, a small role on that project. I think it was to do with just the way that I like to problem-solve. On a construction project, you tend to have designers and contractors. Designers would look at the calculations for the design, provide the drawings, the specifications. Contractors tend to be doing the on-site work. They’ll be doing different jobs on site. I was neither of these. I was a client because Transport for London TFL are a client organization. They give the contracts out to these different companies, to carry out the work for them. A lot of that was me checking that people had done what they needed to do. I had a great overview and strategic outlook on what was happening but wasn’t getting into a lot of that work. Joseph: The study is subject in university, and they may or may not have a deep desire to go into the industry but they do anyway because it’s what makes sense after you get that sort of a degree. In this case, civil engineering. Your day-to-day life isn’t quite as you had hoped it would be. Were you thinking at this point in time maybe I’ll switch to a different organization and try to do something else in civil engineering? What was running through your head when you were experiencing this? Aimi: [09:54] At the time, I was focused on gaining the professional qualification. There was a lot of support within TFL to do that so I stayed there until I achieved that qualification. I left TFL for a design consultancy to be a designer properly. It was still Crossrail, which was interesting. I was in a managerial position. I was managing other designers, and it was great because I got that position from gaining my chartership. But then, I realized it wasn’t that fun either. There was a lot of pressure, the environment wasn’t exactly healthy in some ways. I don’t know how to explain it because I was there for such a short time. What happened in that role is that I got made redundant. It forced my hand to look at something else. However, at that time, I had already been looking into coding. A few months before that redundancy happened, I had joined Sky’s “Get Into Tech” course. Joseph: Was this just something that you’d always been interested in doing? Or, how did you pick coding in particular? Aimi: [11:08] When I was a teenager, I used to be tinkering around with personal blogs and changing what my Myspace looked like for hours. Instead of doing my revision, I spent a lot of time messing around with that. At the time, I didn’t know that software development was a career choice. I didn’t have any role models that did this. At school, no one mentioned it. I joined the “Get Into Tech” course because I wanted to reignite that interest that I had years and years ago, just to see what it was like and just to see what people were using these days to code things. I hadn’t really coded anything like a program. It was mostly me messing around with HTML and CSS, which are very like the cosmetic side of changing web pages, and I enjoyed it! I found myself in that zone again, just spending hours and hours trying to solve problems that were set in the class. I did this in my spare time outside of work. Joseph: At what point did you realize that this could turn into something more? Aimi: [12:22] Sky wanted to get more women into tech through this course by introducing them to some basic concepts. Usually, their graduate program does not attract as many women. Mostly because not many women are doing computer science. They offered the opportunity to sit the interview for the graduate program at Sky. I sat the program just to see if I would get in, just to see what kind of things people ask at these things, and they offered it to me. I was in a bit of a dilemma because at that point I didn’t know that that redundancy was coming. I had to decide whether I would leave this career I’d spend like six years building, or to try something totally different. It was quite hard. Joseph: Can you take me back to the moment when you were able to make that decision. How did you come to the level of clarity you needed in order to make the leap? Aimi: [13:24] It was tough. I spoke to so many different people about it. Obviously, my parents being immigrants in this country. They saw it as risky to try and do something which, in hindsight, it’s not that risky. It’s still not a job that has a career path. It’s not like I was saying I’m going to put down all my tools and start a business I know nothing about. My friends had mixed opinions about it. In the end, I decided not to take it because I just felt like, “Oh, I’ve worked really hard at this.” Maybe again, I thought to myself, “Oh, maybe if I give it more time, it will change.” And then, the redundancy happened. I had to go back and ask Sky if they would take me because after that happened, my parents were like, “Yeah, maybe this is the sign that you need to just try it.” Joseph: It doesn’t sound so bad after all, right? I’m not sure if now is the right time to bring this up, but if you’re open to going here in this conversation, something we touched on prior to this recording because you mentioned friends and family, and their influence on your thoughts and your decisions about this particular move. If you’re willing to talk about this, I understand you’re also in a relationship around this time. I think that would be interesting to touch on because clearly, our life at work affects our life outside of work and vice versa. Can you tell me a little bit about what was happening for you outside of work, related to this relationship, and how that influenced your decision making here? Aimi: [14:52] My partner at the time was very supportive of a lot of the things I wanted to do. With this particular decision, he helped me a lot in terms of talking through what the pros and cons were. Whatever decision I made, he was really helpful. However, later on, after I had taken the decision to join Sky and become a software developer, a lot of things changed. We met on the TFL grad scheme. He was also a civil engineer. Obviously, I was moving industries and that was a big part of what we spoke about, our work/life. We spoke about in-depth. That all changed. Leading up to that point, everything was fine. He was helping me make these decisions and didn’t hold me back in that respect. It was after that that everything changed. Joseph: Was there anything in particular that changed with the relationship itself after you actually made your career change? Aimi: [16:01] The relationship in its dynamic changed a lot in the lead-up to that huge life change. There were a lot of different behaviors that were coming up in the relationship. It became a lot more toxic. There were certain elements of my relationship that I started to become unhappy with. I would say I don’t think he was aware of it at the time that these things were happening and what that would have meant for our relationship, or even that he would have admitted at that time. It was to do with the career change. But I feel like a lot of these things probably came from not feeling in control of how things were moving. Joseph: It sounds like things were going fine with the relationship. And then, you, yourself, evolved away from what had been the status quo, professionally. It sounds like that in some way triggered a change in the dynamic of the relationship. Do you have any sense of why that happened? Why the career move ended up creating this paradigm shift in the relationship itself? Aimi: [17:20] I guess when you change careers like that, it becomes kind of your identity in a way. I don’t know if other people have felt this. But when I changed careers, I didn’t realize how much of my identity was tied to my career. Until I moved and realized that, for example, all the social currency you have when being an organization like this connections, people not knowing who you are, people not already having some idea of whether you’re competent or not. All of that changes. You end up feeling like you’ve really started all over again, and maybe it was me wanting to spend a lot more time with the new people I’d met. It could be suddenly all the things I was talking about were very different. A lot of things become a different focus that are totally new. I think it’s maybe that lack of familiarity, or not being able to empathize with the fact that all of this is a bit scary, and all I’m doing is trying to make sense of this new situation I find myself in. Joseph: I’ve had a very similar experience where I go from one chapter of my career to the next. It’s like the people from the previous chapter, sometimes they come along for the ride. But, especially with acquaintances or colleagues outside of your immediate team, a lot of those relationships can kind of fizzle out. Aimi: [18:51] I would say that some of my friends continued with me for the ride, as you say. I guess the ones that were the closest. But it wasn’t because of the job itself that I’d lost people along the way. It was more to do with how that breakup happened, and what I perceived to be a strong friendship or not based on the stuff I would talk about around the relationship. There are some people who were more understanding when I explained the situation and some people who didn’t have the same tools to respond. That ended up being a separator in this instance. Joseph: I wanted to shift gears here a little bit with some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. You go from moving through this 14-week introduction program, this “Get Into Tech” program at Sky, into software development. Can you describe what your experience has been, like going from civil engineering into a very different function and role within a very different industry? Aimi: [20:03] The perception of software development is that it would have been just as bad as engineering in terms of diversity. But, I found that people are more diverse in their personalities than they were in engineering. It’s a tough one to describe, but even though the field is still male-dominated, not as many people of color, the personalities you get are very different. It kind of fits better with me, I guess, in the engineering world. I remember a conversation I had with a friend of mine who was also on the scheme at the time. I was like anxious about not appearing White enough, or like having to put on this persona, which was White. At that time, I couldn’t explain what those things were. When I tried to, they just sounded like normal things. Like certain ways of communicating or being opinionated because there are things that sound like they’re just traits that you need. But, it’s a certain way of communicating that’s expected of you, that I had to emulate a lot of the time, which wasn’t in my natural personality. Joseph: I do think that you’re bringing up something that does come up a lot. Whether it’s explicit or implicit, there’s this cultural fit with your organization. Sometimes, when people talk about cultural fit, they’re talking about the dynamics of the company whether it’s fast-moving, or entrepreneurial, or if the people are friendly or it’s competitive. There’s another element to it which is actually more related to ethnicity or it’s maybe more related to geography. There could be some mismatches there with the culture. Aimi: [21:50] With ethnicity, I found that I noticed this more as I moved to Sky. The young men who came from an ethnic minority background, I could see them struggling more having conversations with people. And then, I looked back at where I was in engineering and did notice some things as well. But, it’s never spoken about. I felt for them because it’s not an easy one to navigate. At the time, you don’t even know how to describe that feeling where you’re not quite fitting in, culturally, but there’s nothing going wrong necessarily. Joseph: I actually I used to work in the Bay Area, in California, where there’s quite a few Asians. I’m Taiwanese myself, and I never really thought very much about cultural fit. I’ve felt like I generally fit into the overall environment at work. There’s a lot of ethnic and cultural diversity at work. And then, I remember moving to London, and at both of the companies where I worked, I was a minority in so many different ways. I think when you’re one of, in my case, three Asians along with a handful of other minorities in a company of 180 employees, it’s hard not to feel a little bit like an outlier. It’s hard for that not to affect your overall experience at the company. It’s kind of hard to put that into words, sometimes, both for yourself and also for others. Aimi: [23:17] I’ve been a minority all my life wherever I go. I’m kind of used to it. The difference is when it’s affecting directly in how people perceive you in a career sense, all of a sudden, it feels very loud. For example, I used to go to an Islamic school. I would be the only Southeast Asian person in my year, and maybe one of three or four other students, which were from the Southeast Asian background. When everyone else was Middle Eastern, you kind of don’t realize how much of a deal it is until you sort of leave and you go. That was a bit weird. There was a lot of things that you couldn’t be, you couldn’t share about yourself. People would talk about how their families are. But, in the wider context of London, you’re like, “Oh, I’m with people who are kind of like me, that’s fine.” Then when I met engineering again, like White-dominated. But then, you’re on a university course, you don’t notice. You just need to carry on doing what you’re doing, like other people’s interactions with you don’t affect your grade. But then, all of a sudden, you’re in a job. All of a sudden, what people think of you matters a lot. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about with what you’re doing right now because I understand there’s another role shift that’s coming up for you. When we spoke before. Aimi, you mentioned that you did everything you were supposed to do coming out of civil engineering. But, you still ended up in a career path that wasn’t right for you. What exactly did you mean by that? Aimi: [25:03] The process of doing that job didn’t necessarily fit my natural personality. I felt like I was shifting my personality a lot in order to fit either the type of role or the people I was working with. Software, on the other hand, it has a lot of similarities. But, the cool thing about software is that you can design it, and build it, and see it happen. It’s a lot of problem-solving which I find enjoyable. The kind of problem-solving that happens on big engineering projects depends a lot on your experience and what you’ve seen before. I entered engineering having never had any real experience of being on-site. As a young person, I think a lot of people get into engineering after messing around with a car or being on-site with a friend or a family member. They have these little experiences which exposes them to what it’s actually like, and I didn’t have that. I totally went into it on a theoretical basis trying to use what I knew to help people but it just didn’t suit me. I had to become this person that civil engineering needed to be. Whereas, I’m an actual problem solver and just software suited me better. It’s also the kind of people that software draws to it that I seem to get along with a lot better. It just seemed like a more natural fit as soon as I joined it. Joseph: If you had to give some advice to your younger civil engineering self, as it relates to thinking about your career or changing careers, what might that be? Aimi: [26:57] It would be to unlearn those things that you get taught as a young person, to always listen to what everyone else says. I think I should have listened to my instinct when I was messing around with web pages for hours and hours, and to have followed that. I think a lot of young people tend to have something they’re interested in, but there isn’t anyone to notice that that is something that they can turn into something else. Whether it’s a career or a very important hobby of theirs. Something that they can take forward and do more earnestly in some way, in some creative way or some productive way. I should have listened to my instinct when I joined my civil engineering course because I definitely felt like it wasn’t for me. But, my dad kept telling me, “No, it’s fine. You’re doing really well.” I don’t think my younger self would have listened to my advice either because my dad would have been on the other side going, “No, no, no, just stay where you are.” I think that comes out of being from an immigrant family who just wants the best for their kids and to just persevere with opportunities that have been presented to them. Not realizing that other opportunities may also turn up as well. Joseph: Absolutely. I think that that does come up a lot with immigrant families. As someone, myself, who grew up in the United States after my parents immigrated there, primarily for me and my sister, I think that there is always this desire to make their immigration and them transplanting themselves across the world worth it. Last question, having been through this career change, what’s one thing you’ve learned about yourself? Aimi: [28:47] One of the things I have noticed is that the tasks or jobs I enjoy the most tend to be things that help other people out. I used to do volunteer work, looked at international development and stuff when I was at university. I got passionate about that. Now that you mention it, the projects I enjoy the most in my software career are the ones where I’m helping people do their job a lot better. I get that buzz from someone using something, and it’s made their life a lot easier. Joseph: I think that’s a nice compass to keep in mind for the rest of your career as you look forward and think about what you want to do next. I understand you’re about to make another shift within Sky. Can you tell me a little bit more about your new role there? Aimi: [29:41] I did my MSc in Computer Science, and my dissertation was around machine learning. I tried to combine my previous experience with the new things I had learned. I applied machine learning to construction data. Whilst I was doing that, I thought more about where I’d like to go next. Within Sky, we have a team that creates a platform for data scientists to run their machine learning models. This year, I started talking to that team, and then was successful in selection to join them. I’m joining that team in a week’s time, and it’s really exciting! It’s not a bigger pivot as what I had done from civil engineering to software, but it’s certainly a pivot in terms of what I do now to what they’ll be doing in that team.

Beyond the humanitarian crisis resulting from the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the war there has also taken a huge toll on Ukrainians’ careers and professional lives. In Career Relaunch® podcast episode 82, Roman Havrysh, owner of the Aimbulance marketing agency in Ukraine and lecturer at Kyiv Mohyla Business School, fled Kyiv after the war began. He describes his story of trying to remain afloat both personally and professionally amid the destruction and tragedy there. We’ll talk about what’s happened to his agency, team, and own perspectives on his professional future there. I’ll also share my thoughts on resilience during times of crisis. Key Career Takeaways Even under the most challenging of circumstances, it may still be possible to take some small steps to pivot, adapt, and survive. During times of crisis, you have to decide how you want to fight for your life and career. If you don’t do something about your situation, you might lose everything. Preoccupying yourself with something significant in your life can actually help you cope with volatility in the world around you. Tweetables to Share You have decide how you want to fight for your life and career. You have to find a way to survive. Roman Havrysh Tweet This Work can provide some normalcy in times when everything else seems uncertain. Joseph Liu Tweet This Call for donations to 🇺🇦Ukraine The millions of Ukrainians who have had to flee and leave their lives and careers behind due to this unprovoked attack on their country are really not all that different from me or those around me in the UK just trying to live their lives, make their professional contribution to society, and give their kids a happy childhood. Please do your part in providing assistance to these displaced families by making a donation today on my fundraising page at https://careerrelaunch.net/ukraine. As of this recording, we’ve already raised over £3000, which includes my own contribution of £1400. Any amount, no matter how big or small, can make a huge difference to the lives of Ukrainians. DONATE TODAY Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about figuring out what battle you’re fighting right now. For those in Ukraine, this may be finding shelter, staying alive, and/or keeping your business afloat during an actual war. For someone else out there, it may be more of a battle you’re having with your manager, your organisation, or the environment around you. And for others, it may be more of a figurative battle you’re having with yourself–your own history, your own demons, or your own limiting beliefs. Whatever battle you’re waging right now, ask yourself whether it’s worth it to keep going. Whether the eventual payoff is worth it. And if you do belive it is, to not feel like you have to figure it all out today or even this month, but instead to take a small action today, and another one tomorrow, and another one the next day, knowing and trusting that you WILL gain some momentum, however slow or fast, to eventually get where you want to go. About Roman Havrysh, Owner of Aimbulance Marketing Agency Roman Havrysh is a Ukrainian entrepreneur and the owner of the Aimbulance marketing agency. He was born in a small village near Ivano-Frankivsk, a city in the West of Ukraine. His first major life-changing experience occurred during the collapse of the Soviet Union back in 1991 at the age of 11. When the Soviet planned economy changed gears to a free economy, many people lost their jobs, including both of Roman’s parents. So he started working in the fields, growing vegetables and crops, to help feed his family. Then, his family spent all their savings (the equivalent of $500 US dollars) to send him to study in one of the oldest universities in Eastern Europe – the National University Kyiv Mohyla Academy, where he studied political science. To earn money, he started working during his second year there as a political analyst on the side. He eventually got his Bachelor’s degree, enrolled in a magister’s program, got married, and was expecting his first child. So he quit his university and political analyst’s position to find a better-paid job. In 2004, he eventually became one of the first digital marketing experts in Ukraine working for the mobile service provider UMC, and later, the eventual media holding company owners invited him to become CEO and minor shareholder of Brainberry, the digital media buying house within the holding. Four years later, he created Aimbulance, an strategic marketing agency focused on marketing research, design, implementation, and media buying. Before the war broke out in Ukraine last month, Aimbulance was a leading, award-winning agency in Ukraine known for their strategic approach to solving clients’ problems. Now, with the war in Ukraine, their business is at risk of closure because most of their Ukrainian clients have had to cancel all the projects. Roman and his agency are trying to reinvent themselves and become a truly international marketing agency seeking clients worldwide. If you’re interested in discussing a marketing project with them, you can contact Aimbulance or write to Roman at [email protected], +380671268777, or PM him on LinkedIn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Roman know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Interview Segment Music Credits Reflexions – Joseph Beg Lucky Stars – Podington Bear Soaring – Brendon Moeller Tarnish – Podington Bear Loam – Podington Bear It’s OK – Rippled Stone Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Leaving Kyiv was the hardest part. You were faced with all this terror and people fleeing and screaming and crying, and that was really not the best place to be. We don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 24 hours. Joseph: Before we start, I should just make it clear that this is a show focused on career topics. This is not a world affair show. I am not a news reporter, and I don’t typically get into geopolitical topics here. But, today is going to be a little different from my other episodes. We’re recording this on March 22nd. Almost exactly a month after the Russian invasion of Ukraine which is now being called the fastest-growing humanitarian crisis since World War II, according to the UN. This show is focused on career changes. We are going to talk about how this war has affected your career, team, and marketing agency. I got to first ask you about your personal situation. Can you start by describing, first of all, exactly where you are right now in Ukraine? Roman: [06:58] I’m in the west of Ukraine. I’m pretty safe, if you can call it that way because you are hearing the air raid alarms like two, three times a day. That’s kind of not very pleasant things to hear during the day. Usually, it’s okay. No bombings so far, just two, let’s say. Not “no bombings,” just two of them got here. Two of the rockets got here and hit the airport, but the rest of the city is pretty safe and pretty okay. I hope everything is fine. Joseph: Just so I understand, where you are, geographically, you left Kyiv. Which city are you in right now? Roman: [07:41] It’s Slovyansk City. It’s a different city. I fled the Kyiv. I left Kyiv like almost three weeks ago. I’m here in a different place because Kyiv is a way more dangerous now than Slovyansk. Joseph: Can you describe what was happening in Kyiv before you left? What was happening around there at the time? Roman: [08:02] We just woke up with the sound of air-raid alarm, and bombings, and shellings, and gun shootings. We immediately took off and gather all the, not all the belongings, some of them. Just small suitcases, jumped into the car, and rushed here. That was what’s happening. Joseph: How far are you away from your actual home right now? Roman: [08:28] Seven hundred kilometers away. Joseph: Wow. I was reading some figures in the news and the exact figures vary depending on the source. But, it seems like there have been hundreds of residential buildings, schools, hospitals that have been directly damaged or attacked since this invasion began. How secure is the area where you are? At least, at this moment. Roman: [08:54] At least, at this moment, it’s okay. Because, as I mentioned, only the airport was hit during let’s say last two or three weeks. The rest of the city is pretty okay because it’s in the west, and we are close to Polish border. They probably are afraid of bombing it too hard, not to invoke any geopolitical crisis on involve NATO. That’s basically it. But, the east of Ukraine is really torn into pieces, especially three or two major cities, Mariupol and Kharkiv, are almost destroyed. Mariupol is almost destroyed. Joseph: As of this week, according to the UNHCR, which is the United Nations Refugee Agency, with all this destruction that’s been happening, a quarter of Ukrainians have now been displaced from their homes which is about 10 million people. Of the over 3 million people who have had to leave Ukraine, 90% of those are women and children. And, according to UNICEF, you’ve got nearly 5 million children who have either become refugees or have been displaced within Ukraine. Would you mind just explaining what your personal situation is, and your family’s situation? Roman: [10:11] I left with my children, my two daughters. I’m now here with them at my father’s place. They are with their grandpa, and it’s okay for them. It’s just a family reunion because I’m originally from this city. That is kind of a bit of more comfort than most of the Ukrainians because they left homes, and I’m with my father, and my daughters are with their grandfather, so they are kind of okay about it. Joseph: Can I just also ask how old are your daughters, and how are they coping with it? Roman: [10:48] 16 and 18 years old. Joseph: I guess kids are resilient, right? Roman: [10:54] Well, they’re teenage girls. They are a bit emotional about all this, and that’s not very good thing. Joseph: Before we go back in time, Roman, and talk about your life before this war broke out, is there anything else you want to say about the current situation there before we start talking about your career? Roman: [11:16] Well, I don’t know. I’m hearing some strange noises now, and I presume it’s just our airborne forces trying to maintain the sky clear for now. Joseph: Thank you so much for telling us about what’s going on around you right now. I’m going to attempt to switch gears here. I know that this might be a little difficult, but you haven’t always been in the middle of what’s unfortunately become a war zone. There’s going to be kind of a strange shift to do at this moment because there’s literally fighting going on in your country. But, can you just take me back to the days before this war started? Let’s just maybe talk about where you were situated for someone who’s never been to Kyiv before this invasion. Can you just paint a picture of what the capital city was like as a professional there? Roman: [12:11] It’s a major city with 3 million people living there and working there. A lot of different businesses, very vibrant city, a lot of festivals, music festivals, churches, museums. It’s a very vibrant, very alive city. Not like today, like now. I came there like 22 years ago to study. From that time, I lived there and had my career built there. Also switched the career a few times. If you’re about switching careers, it also happens to be. But still, in Kyiv was like the most interesting in terms of business and career-building place to be in Ukraine. Very vibrant, very dynamic, very business oriented as well. Joseph: You mentioned career changes there. Could you give me a quick overview of your career journey? I understand that you’re currently working in marketing, but you’ve also spent some time lecturing at a business school before starting your current agency. Could just walk me through a little bit just your career history? Roman: [13:24] I have a degree in political science. I started my career as a political analyst. I was working as a political analyst for two and a half years. And then, I switched because the payment was not sufficient enough to sustain my new family. Because early in my career I got married and I had almost immediately two kids. That was a harsh thing to do because I’m originally from a poor family and I needed let’s say a good work to sustain and to provide for my family. That’s basically why I needed to change my career. I switched from political analysis to marketing. Marketing during that time, and probably now, is better paid off. I switched to marketing, and I started working in the mobile operator as a digital marketing specialist back in 2003. It was like early in the digital marketing age. I was among the first who entered this domain and started to build some career in digital marketing. Joseph: How did you get involved with the business school there in Kyiv? Roman: [14:43] This business school is connected with my alma mater, National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. I had close ties over the dean office there. I just came there and said, “You have your marketing courses, but you don’t have digital there. I’m one of the first in Ukraine who’s proficient with digital marketing and expert in this. I can share some knowledge. If you are interested, take me as your lecturer.” They agreed because they needed this kind of field of expertise to be covered and they hired me as a lecturer. Since then, with already 13 years, I’m a lecturer at the business school. Joseph: Wow. You’re doing that while you’re also running your agency, “Aimbulance.” Is that correct? Can you tell me a little bit about what prompted you to found your own agency? Also, a little bit about Aimbulance. Roman: [15:43] As I started my job as a digital marketing expert, I quickly got one of the best in digital because no one was there at the moment, so I became noticed by other companies, agencies. One of the owners of digital marketing agency, invited me to become the head of the agency and to run digital agencies. That was my first major career shift or second major career shift. From just a management role, I switched to the senior management role and became also a minor shareholder of the agency. That agency called “Brainberry.” We did digital marketing strategies, and media buying, and media planning for digital. That was my second shift. And then, I wanted to develop this into more sophisticated ways of helping our clients because we noticed that the digital marketing, you have limited capacity in helping businesses. My internal motto is to help people as much as I can, I tried to think of strategy of strategic marketing of creative work. My partners there in the previous agency didn’t want to expand their field of expertise, and I had to leave with my colleagues. We parted from the previous agency, created our own agency, Aimbulance. There, we started to focus more on strategic marketing efforts, and started to do research, qualitative quantitative research, to do analytics to help out businesses in wider range of services and expertise. Joseph: Let’s just kind of go back to late 2021. What were you focused on in your career and at Aimbulance at the time? It might seem like a lifetime ago now. But, what was happening at that moment for you? Roman: [17:50] We were focused on changing a bit business processes within the agency because I bought the shares from my previous partners. Now, I’m the only owner of the agency and we needed to restructure a bit and change the business process and/or business model even. That was what we were preoccupied with, changing gears, business-wise. Also, with building our clientele, our client base, and expand. We are now number fifth in Ukraine, according to the advertiser’s choice ranking. We wanted to be third or second, so that was our strategy in the coming years. Joseph: It sounds like what anybody in any top agency would be trying. You’re working with your clients, you’re thinking about the optimal organizational strategy for your agency, making a difference out there. That’s a glimpse into how things used to be. I’d like to kind of transition now and talk a little bit about the invasion of Ukraine which began almost exactly a month ago as of the time of this recording. Can you take me back to the moment when the invasion began? Where were you? Who were you with? What were you doing at the time? Roman: [19:14] I was alone at my apartment. I woke up from the bomb shelling and the air raid alarms. I just called my girlfriend and asked, “Well, it’s war. We should leave.” Everybody knew what’s going on. We started packing our belongings and rushed to the car and then moved. While we were trying to leave the city, there were major traffic jams, you couldn’t just leave immediately. It took us four hours just leaving a city. During the traffic jams, you were sitting in the car and hearing shellings around you and gun fighting, and that was the kind of disaster. You see all the people fleeing from the city. Someone on the foot, someone on the car, someone on a bike. Basically, any means possible they were using just to leave the city. It was really some kind of experience. I would say it was really terrifying. Joseph: Out of curiosity, did you think about staying? Or, was it just like how did you make the decision to leave everything behind and just go what sounds like that day? Roman: [20:38] I’ve made my plans before because I knew that something was cooking up. I just prepared for this. I had plans in my head, so “what if,” let’s say. What if they attack only Donbas area only, on the Eastern Ukraine? What if they attack also Southern Ukraine? What if they attack Kyiv? I immediately decided because we had already the experience from Donbas that it might take a month. But still, the first few days are the most ugly, and that you better leave immediately. That’s what we did. Joseph: Now, I also want to talk a little bit about your company, your team, and also you, and how you’ve been affected. But, it’s probably worth taking those one at a time here. What happened with your agency? I think you and I first connected because I saw a post from one of your colleagues who, if I understand it correctly, he’s left the country. He’s now in Romania with his family and daughters. What’s happened with the company itself? Roman: [21:44] We lost like 70% of our business already, of our clients and turnover. Most of our clients were Ukrainian companies. We also like freeze for two weeks. We couldn’t do anything because people were fleeing, they were relocating, were trying to find a safe spot for their families and for themselves. Basically, someone ended up in Poland, someone ended up in Romania, someone in Czech Republic, someone left in Kyiv, someone is here in Ivano-Frankivsk in Lviv. We are now in different places, different cities, and going back now to let’s say new normal. We are trying to reconnect. We’re trying to get our agency up and running with these digital tools, with a remote working approach, and that is kind of working okay. When I felt that we are now okay and we can proceed working, I started to look for prospects for new clients because we need now new clients in order to sustain ourselves. Joseph: Your team, are they just in different parts of the country at this point, or even outside of the country? Nobody is where you are right now? Roman: [23:12] Well, a few of them are but the rest of the team, so — Oh! Here is the air raid alarm. You’re probably hearing it. Joseph: What’s running through your head when you hear that? Roman: [23:25] I don’t know. Just the heartbeat is just going up. You are like, “Oh! Is it going to be safe or not?” You can’t know for sure each time. Most of the times, it’s okay, but sometimes, you hear bombing and you’re like, “Wow!” Joseph: I’m sitting here, it’s just kind of crazy that we’re talking right now. Don’t know how you’re able to I guess keep your composure with so much happening around you right now. Roman: [[23:57] I’m already used a bit to it, honestly. You get tired of being frightened all the time. You don’t have that amount of fear anymore. Joseph: I’m going to try to stay on track with the interview here and talk a little bit about you. I know that there’s been so much of an impact on so many people in so many different ways, both personally, professionally. This is a career podcast so I’m going to try to focus on that. How has your career been affected? Do you think, by what’s happening here, I know that might sound like a narrow question, but I am very curious to hear. There’s this whole professional side of people’s lives. They’ve invested years in education and training and developing skills. Now, I don’t know exactly where you’re sitting, but your teams scattered, the fate of your company is unknown. How do you think your career is being affected by everything that’s happening right now? Roman: [24:56] I don’t have a clue, honestly. You don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know even if I’m going to be alive in the next 24 hours, honestly. You don’t know what to expect. But, from the other point of view, from the other perspective, I’m not trying to push our company beyond our Ukrainian borders. It might and even better for example. If we succeed, we might become international. Way more than we were before. It might really help us in a strange way. When I’m saying this and like, “Do you hear yourself? What are you saying just right now? That it might be even better for you?” But, honestly, that’s one of the scenarios. It might be really better. From my lifetime experience, I would say that a few times I had those disasters in my life. I was born in 1980, that was still Soviet Union; and then, in 1990, it collapsed. We had crazy times back then. It was just a completely different story. Also, that was a time where people strive or you lose your track, and you don’t know what to do, and you become poor, and you almost die of hunger or something. It’s a very interesting time to grab yourself, to pull yourself together, and to decide what you want to do, how you want to survive, how you want to plan your future, and how you are going to fight for your life, for your career, for your path. That motivates you because you need to do something. You just literally need to do something in order to survive because I need money to feed my family. That’s why I should work, and I need work right now. I am pretty confident at what I am doing. I had a lot of expertise in marketing. I am really skillful, you can check my LinkedIn profile about skills, et cetera. I’m kind of very good at this, and that might help me push out of the comfort zone. That might sound funny because what’s the more ultimate push out of comfort zone than war? You couldn’t even imagine. Joseph: I hear what you’re saying it can kind of almost feel awkward to even use the word “opportunity” in the same sentence. As something tragic that’s happening, and I think a lot of us felt this during the pandemic. Clearly, you and millions of other people are now facing that in Ukraine. I suppose there is to some extent, I mean all you can do sometimes is to try to just pivot and find a way to make it work as you can. Roman: [27:54] You don’t have any chances. You’re going to just lose your company, or you want to just lose your career, or you’re going to do something about it. That post on LinkedIn is just the way that I’m trying to cope with this situation. I tried just to fight for my career, to fight for my company, fight for my employees, to find another opportunity, and it seems like it’s working. I am now talking to you. Who would imagine that we will be talking back two days ago? Joseph: Two days ago. Roman: [28:32] Not a chance. Joseph: Who would have guessed that? In some strange way I suppose, work does have a way of providing some normalcy in times where everything else seems uncertain and up in the air, and chaos around you. Roman: [28:47] Exactly. That’s when you start working — because I had like two weeks where I could pull myself together and that was kind of disaster. Then, we came here, in one of Frankiewicz, and we started volunteering in this initiative, “Save Ukraine Now.” If you would like to type it in Google, you will find our initiative where we trying to get donations and to buy some provisions, some medicines, some even helmets and ballistic vests for our soldiers. Basically, we try to help anyhow, and we started working and everything got better. And then, we returned to our normal, let’s say, new normal way of working. We started reaching out to clients, starting to negotiate with them, and it got better and better. The more you are preoccupied with something significant in your life, the more it’s kind of not that harsh for you to be in those circumstances. Joseph: Roman, I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. I was hoping we could cover a couple other topics here before we wrap up with what you’re hoping for your agency. The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we finish up by talking about some of your efforts with your agency right now, is just related to your perspectives on life and also your work at this moment. I’ve heard all sorts of stories on the news related to unthinkable challenges that people are dealing with right now. Not having running water, not having electricity, running out of food. I mean, literally, bodies in the streets there. What’s been the hardest part of this for you? Roman: [30:35] Leaving Kyiv was the hardest part because you were faced with all this terror and people fleeing, and screaming, and crying, and that was not the best place to be. But, now, it’s okay because here, in Western Ukraine, you just don’t feel it that much and everything is quite okay here. You have here water, internet, food, everything. We are quite okay here for now because we don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 24 hours. For now, it’s okay and it’s just as it was before, we are working. Just before our call, I had a call with our client from Paris. We talked about their strategies. It was kind of okay. Sometimes, you forget you are at war when you’re working. Joseph: This is a question I ask guests toward the end of this conversation, and I wasn’t sure whether I should ask it of you, but I do think it’s still applicable here. As you think about where you’ve been in your career and what’s happening around you right now, I get that you’re in a slightly safer area, but at the same time, your country is still at war right now. What’s something that you’ve learned about yourself just over the past month since this has happened? Roman: [32:02] Well, that I’m tougher than I expected, that I really can pull myself together and make good decisions. As leaving Kyiv, for example, timely and trying to reach out for international public, for international companies, to get clients and to keep sanity as well because it’s really kind of crazy times. I’m kind of okay, I really know what I’m doing, I’m capable of working properly. Basically, that’s what I learned from this situation, that I’m really tougher than I thought I am. Joseph: Is there something you would like people out there listening to this to know about what’s happening to professionals like you there in Ukraine right now? Roman: [32:52] We just need a chance. We need a chance. We need your help as well. When I did this post on LinkedIn, one American client said, “Okay. Just write me a bill for one hour of your consultation, and I’ll have it later on after war.” I couldn’t do it. Because I was like, “No. I want a real consultancy. I want a real job, not just a donation.” We really need a real job. We can do it. We are experienced. We know what we’re doing. We can help you. Just give us a chance because we need it now. Well, in some parts, we need donations like those people that are under the shellings in the bomb shelters, they need donations. But people here, businesses and professionals, they just need a chance to prove themselves. That’s it and they will prove it because our people really can fight as you can see, and we can do it. We can deliver. Just give us a chance. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you are hoping to do right now. I know you’re trying to keep your agency going. Not only surviving but also thriving, if possible. Is there anything you would like to mention to anyone listening to this if they want to lend a hand or if they are interested in potentially working with you? Roman: [34:17] Go ahead. Just Google, “Aimbulance.” If you find what we’re doing suits your needs, please do not hesitate to contact us. We will do our best to help you with our services and our experience. Joseph: Thank you so much, Roman.

As the global Covid-19 pandemic now enters into its third year, professionals are now beginning to return to their offices, daily commutes, and ways of life pre-pandemic. On the one hand, it’s encouraging that life is returning back to “normal,” but on the other, it feels strange that things just are going back to the way things used to be. At the very least, this pandemic should be a big wake-up call for us all to reevaluate whether the ways we were living and working before this pandemic can and should be the ways we continue to live and work moving forward. Former corporate lawyer turned author and founder Eloise Skinner describes her own professional awakening catalysed by the pandemic in episode 81 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. We talk through the challenges of balancing multiple career endeavours, the seemingly inextricable link between our professional jobs and personal identities, and the importance of honoring your own values and interests no matter what others think. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I also describe what I would consider one of the biggest professional tragedies of this pandemic. Key Career Takeaways Balancing multiple career endeavors between your full-time job and side projects often means you can’t fully commit your energies to either, forcing you to decide where to devote your focus. Feeling grounded is often directly tied to having a defined professional title and clear career path, so leaving either behind is not easy. Figuring out what you want to do with your career starts with focusing on what YOU want instead of how you think others will react to your choices. Consider your values, what excites you, and what gets you out of bed in the morning. The pandemic has resulted in each of us letting go of things we assumed were just part of everyday professional life (regular hours, commute, etc), but we all have an opportunity now to reevaluate exactly how we want to work. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about identifying at least one change you want to make in your career (or life) that you feel would allow you feel better about where it’s headed. Insist on having something that’s important to you that you’re just not getting enough of right now or at least keeping your eyes peeled for opportunities where you might find it. About Eloise Skinner Eloise Skinner is an author, teacher and existential therapist. She is also the founder of two businesses, The Purpose Workshop and One Typical Day. Eloise’s newest book, The Purpose Handbook, was released in late 2021. And the proceeds from this book are shared with Career Ready UK, the UK’s national social mobility charity. She also has a seat on their youth board. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Eloise know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow: Be sure to follow Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Leimoti – Blossoms Jakob Ahlbom – Crossing the Rubicon Lama House – Where Legends Dwell Wonder – Hazy Expand – Hazy Rannar Sillard – Siljan Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I think the pandemic removed so many things that I previously thought were unshakable that I started to re-evaluate what other things could maybe go without me missing them too much. That was when I decided I would just leave completely. Joseph: We got a lot to talk about today. I want to talk to you a little bit about your career as a former corporate lawyer. And then, I know we want to talk a little bit about your book-writing adventures. But I was wondering if we could first of all start by having you just give us a glimpse into what’s been keeping you busy right now in your career and your life. Eloise: [02:36] There’s been a few things. The biggest projects I have at the moment are writing my third book, which will be out next year. That’s a very big project which I’m working on at the moment. And then, the other thing is the business side of things. At the moment, my business is raising investment and that takes up pretty much all of my waking hours and some of my non-waking hours as well, thinking about that. That’s things like putting together a pitch deck, pitching to investors, and having lots of meetings. Those are the two biggest challenges at the moment. Joseph:  What about the rest your life? Anything personally keeping you occupied these days beyond what sounds like it quite a busy work schedule? Eloise: [03:16] It’s a very work-heavy time of life at the moment. Work moves in seasons. It comes, there’s very few seasons. And then, hopefully, towards the end of the year is when I’m thinking things will take a bit of a pause or at least there’ll be a season where things are less busy. Otherwise, I love to do things like fitness. I’m a fitness instructor. I teach quite a few Pilates and yoga classes. And, that as much as teaching. That’s a good part of my work. But it doesn’t ever feel like work because it’s also a personal passion. It’s something that kind of takes my mind off the other work that I’m doing and puts me into a different headspace. That’s something I enjoy outside of my main projects Joseph: Can you just tell us a little bit about your businesses? Because I think you’ve got a couple businesses. Eloise: [04:04] The first one is “The Purpose Workshop.” This is a business that is centered on working with people either one-on-one, or working with corporates, or working with educational clients, like schools or universities, just to help people find a sense of purpose. It’s based on my work in the field of existential therapy which is the training I have on the therapy side. It’s the idea that everyone has the ability to shape their life in any way that they want, people have the ability to find a sense of purpose in whatever situation they’re in. This is kind of the basic understanding of existential analysis which is the more academic side of things. The business is a very practical skills-based workshop to help people do that, that’s “The Purpose Workshop.” And then, my other business is an ed-tech start-up, and it’s called “One Typical Day.” It is a video platform for students to figure out their first career steps. We showcase video content helping students get an insight into a day in the life of lots of different types of careers. Joseph: Very interesting. It sounds like you definitely have your hands full with a lot of different things. I know that you haven’t always been an existential therapist, and you haven’t always been a founder of two businesses, and a writer of what’s coming up on your third book. Can we just go back in time a little bit and talk a little bit about how you got here? I know that you were originally working in the legal profession. Could you take us back to that part of your career, and then we’ll go forward from there? What exactly were you doing, and what kind of firm were you working for? Eloise: [05:42] I had a very traditional career starting out. I studied [unintelligible] university. I always thought I want to be a lawyer. I was one of those annoying people at 14. That was like, “I know exactly what I want to do for my career, and this is the direction I’m going in. This is it. This is my passion.” I studied law at university, really loved it, really loved my law degree from the academic perspective, and ended up in the city training as a corporate lawyer. I did two years training contract, and then three years as an associate. I spent some time out in New York. I ended up specializing in corporate tax, which is maybe not the most exciting job title, but it connected for me with the academic side of law. Most of corporate law, isn’t really about law in a technical sense. It’s more like the business environment, and the legal aspects of a business deal. It’s very much driven by market trends, and client demands, and what’s going on in the business world. But tax is a little bit more academic, so there’s a bit more what we would call maybe “black letter law,” the legislation, the statute books all of that stuff which apparently is what I love to do. That’s my legal work. Joseph: You liked that part of the legal journey kind of being in what you called the “black books,” and going through statutes, and getting into the details of things. What did you think your career was going to look like in the legal profession, and then what ended up being the reality that you experienced? Eloise: [07:12] It’s an interesting question because as a law student, even though you can think, “I really want to be a lawyer,” but you don’t know the reality of what that job is like in any respect until you get into it. Actually, at university, I thought maybe I wanted to be a family lawyer and someone doing divorce and child proceedings, and things like that. I did a family law internship, and I just didn’t connect with it in the way that I had expected to. I ended up in corporate law almost as a result of wanting somewhere that was very demanding, challenging environment. It was where a lot of my peers were going as well, and the culture fit was good at the firm that I ended up at. I felt that was somewhere where I could be myself and sort of challenge myself intellectually, as well as professionally. Corporate law was a very long way away from my experience as a law student. As I said, it’s fairly business driven. There’s not a huge amount of legal study involved in it. I guess it was a huge difference from my expectations as a student. Obviously, the other thing is the time demands, being in corporate law on what on your life as a whole I guess, and the kind of work-life balance of struggles or challenges that you have to overcome. Joseph: What kind of hours were you working at the law firm, out of curiosity? Eloise: [08:31] The interesting thing about corporate law, in particular, is that, even if you’re not working all of the hours in the day, you’re pretty much available all of those hours. That’s the kind of nature of the job that can be quite challenging is this feeling of being sort of “on-call” or “on-demand.” As in you’ve got a work demand in the middle of your Saturday, you just have to go into the office and like drop whatever it was that you were doing. It’s that kind of unpredictability that was more challenging and more draining on a personal level than the actual hours themselves. A lot of firms in the city now are very conscious of well-being and work-life balance, and they try and do as much as possible to support you. But being in a very client-driven industry is just kind of the nature of the job and that is a part of it being responsive to anything that comes in Joseph: At what point did you realize that this wasn’t maybe what you wanted to do the rest of your life? What triggered that for you? Eloise: [09:24] It was more of a slow process of just other things being interesting to me. Too many competing demands to be able to do everything and to give my full energy and attention to everything. I’d already written a book back in 2019. It was my first book. Joseph: While you were working full time at the law firm? Eloise: [09:44] Yeah, exactly. It’s kind of like it was all my vacations, and like weekends for about a year and a half or something. It’s a pretty interesting decision, life decision. That book kind of opened my eyes to the possibilities of publishing, and being a content creator, and doing different things with my time. The more that I did other things the more I could see that it was going to be challenging for me to really commit to something, like 100%. Law is one of those careers that if you go for it and you want to make it to partnership or something like that, you are giving up your entire professional career to just do that single thing, not multitask, or have a portfolio career, or whatever it is. I got to a point where those natural crossroads that happen at some point during your career and you’re kind of thinking like, “If I continue down this path, it sort of shuts off other avenues. Do I want to take a moment to pause and figure out what to do next?” Joseph: I know that writing a book is a major endeavor. What got you thinking about writing the book and what was the book about? Eloise: [10:45] That one was called the “Junior Lawyers’ Handbook.” It was a handbook for junior lawyers. It was a professional development manual, so it was kind of an introduction to being a junior lawyer. It sort of evolved naturally from stuff I’d already been writing. When I joined the firm, I ended up putting together an internal kind of manual for the trainees that were joining, and I was just doing loads of professional development teaching, and helping out with training new lawyers, and stuff like that. That kind of evolved naturally into something more formal which became loads of articles. I was writing for a publication called “The Lawyer” at the time. And then, I was connected to an agent through a friend of a friend. We approached the law society. They wanted to publish it, which was amazing because they hadn’t published anything specifically for junior lawyers before. It was really exciting. Joseph: Super exciting! And then, you’re working on this book, you published the book, you have an agent. At this point, are you still working at the law firm? Eloise: [11:50] Yeah, that’s right. And obviously, all of my work on the side, my kind of writing and stuff, was all in the legal profession. In some ways, it was an extension of my personal brand as a lawyer, the work that I was doing within the legal community. It was very much connected to my professional role. When I got my second book deal in 2020, just before the pandemic. It was then at that point, where I could see the paths were diverging. Because as soon as I started to move away from the legal sector. that was when I saw more of a conflict between what I was doing as a lawyer, what I wanted to do as a writer. Joseph: And so, you’re working on your second book. At what point do you decide that you need to completely cut ties with the law firm and focus 100% on these other side projects and endeavors? Eloise: [12:44] The pandemic was a significant factor in choosing that decision. Had the pandemic not happened, I would have wanted to maybe still keep a little bit of my professional role in the legal sector somehow whether that’s like part-time or some kind of portfolio career. I had had some initial conversations about maybe going part-time or doing something like that doing the book alongside. I think the pandemic, as it did for a lot of us, it forced me to re-evaluate what do I want out of my career on a day-to-day level. Is it that I want to stay in law because it really fulfills me, or is it just because I’m too scared to just make the move into something else entirely? The pandemic removed so many things that I previously thought were unshakable. Like that commute into the city, the city lifestyle, that kind of stuff, it was all gone so fast. I started to re-evaluate what other things could maybe go without me missing them too much. That was when I decided, maybe not even forever, but at least for a period of time, like a year or something, I would just leave completely. Joseph: That’s really interesting, Eloise, because it seems like the pandemic was part of that awakening that you had. It almost showed you that life didn’t have to necessarily involve the commute, and maybe kind of reading between the lines here, but that maybe you didn’t need to have that be part of your daily life and there were other ways of working. Now, where does the founding of the new company then enter into the equation? How did you get that started and off the ground? Eloise: [14:19] “The Purpose Workshop” really came from the book. That’s quite a sort of interesting and unusual way of founding a business. Because, normally, the business comes first, and then people write the business book to go with the business. But I could just see that the material was incredibly teachable, and I was doing it one-on-one. I just thought this is more scalable as a business. I started to kind of put stuff together made some online courses, sort of formalized the whole teaching process. The other business, “One Typical Day,” that was really more of a product of just listening to what students wanted. So, as the book had sort of taken shape, I was speaking to a lot of young people about finding their purpose, and what they wanted to do for their careers. I could just see a gap in the market of kind of video-based careers content. I ended up on an accelerated program, and that helped me structure the business and put some market research and validation behind these ideas. It just continued from there really. It was a natural process of listening to people and seeing what they wanted, and seeing that there was a gap, and trying to fill it. Joseph:  How was the journey of shifting from full-time work to working for yourself? Not only working for yourself but starting a couple actual businesses. Can you just describe the contrast in your day-to-day work-life? Eloise: [15:37] Really challenging in ways that I have not even expected before. There are huge things that I feel so proud of myself for doing and ways that my life is so much more aligned now to who I am as a person, what I want to be doing with my time, and so much more autonomy about my hours and how my days are structured. At the same time, there’s a huge amount of anxiety about leaving a very stable, traditional corporate path and not knowing what comes next. Almost a sense of guilt as well. I kind of felt like I fell out of the structure that I’d had from my life. I just was floating a little bit outside of that structure. That was a weird way to describe it, but it felt kind of untethered or ungrounded for a while. Because my days have gone from being very determined by someone else’s schedule, meetings at this time because someone else says so, or client demands at this time because that’s what’s happening to me being completely in control of what happened and when. With all of these projects, like the book, the businesses, the teaching, whatever, if those weren’t pushed forwards by me, they weren’t going to happen. And so, this whole like sort of weight of my career just landed on my shoulders, like really heavily. There are things that I’m just so grateful for, and things that are amazing about this time of life, and things that are also quite intimidating or stressful or just challenging in ways that I hadn’t anticipated. Joseph: I’m hoping we can take these topics maybe one at a time here. First, of all just starting your own business, and then second of all, I do want to talk about your journey to get your book written and published. But, you mentioned that it was really challenging, this change. Can you describe just for maybe somebody out there who’s maybe thinking about leaving their full-time role, and is considering to start their own thing? The existence as a self-employed founder/entrepreneur/solopreneur, whatever you want to call it. Can you just describe what makes that so challenging? Eloise: [17:44] One of the biggest things is the identity question, is your identity bound up in your role in your professional career. For me, it definitely was. Because not only was I a law student and someone who’d said like I want to be a lawyer since I was pretty young in my educational journey but also I was someone in the legal profession with a pretty clear personal brand and reputation. I wasn’t just doing my legal job in the day and doing other stuff by night, or at the weekends or whatever, but I’d also given a significant amount of my personal time to building a little bit of a place for myself in the legal world. All my connections were in law, and my friends are in law, and all of that kind of stuff. That’s one of the things that’s challenging, is the process of unraveling your personal identity from your job title which is an interesting process. But once you do it is incredibly liberating because then you just feel much more connected to yourself, and a little bit more about who you actually are, separate from the day-to-day work that you’re doing. Also, related to knowing your self is sort of figuring out how you work best. This is such a strange process if you have been employed for most of your careers, and you haven’t been self-employed before because you’re suddenly free to structure your working day however you like. It’s not something you get the opportunity to do when you’re in employment. And so, it’s like figuring out when am I most productive, when should I have my meetings, what time should I start work, what time should I finish work, you need boundaries, choosing when you’re going to socialize. It was weird because I have a friend who’s also self-employed, we just realized, “Oh! We could just like go to like an art museum or something on a random Tuesday afternoon.” It feels illegal to do something like that. Because it’s like, “What am I doing? I should be working in 9-to-5!” But suddenly, you realize, you’re actually not compelled to do your work in that way. If you’re not doing your best work during those times, then you can restructure your life to reflect that. Joseph: Everything you just said, Eloise, resonates so much with me. The part about how our identities are linked up with our job titles especially when those job titles are quite neatly packaged, like lawyer, or I grew up thinking I wanted to become a doctor. It’s a lot easier to describe what a lawyer or doctor does versus somebody who’s got multiple endeavors, and passions, and interests. And so, that resonates with me. Also, this idea of just how to structure your workday, and we’re so programmed to follow this Monday through Friday, 9-to-5 routine. But you’re right, there’s not really anything that bounds us to that necessarily. I find I work quite well at night. That’s when I sometimes do my best work when the sun goes down. This is also a good transition to talk about your book because it is about what’s called, “The Purpose Handbook.” I’m talking about your second book. It is about helping people understand how to design their lives. As much as I would love to get into the content of the book, I’m also very interested in how you came to publish the book. I heard once everybody’s got a book inside them, and for many people listening to this show, they’ve probably thought, “Yeah, maybe I could write a book.” Can you just walk us through a little bit of your process of how you ended up writing the book? It is a lot of work. How’s that experience been for you? Eloise: A 100%. Everyone has a book in them, and I think everyone should write a book. I’ve been trying to encourage my dad to write a book recently. I’m like, “I think you can do it, and you need to do it.” People have these interesting stories to tell, and more books in the world is always a good thing. In answer to your question, it depends what kind of book you’re writing. I mean I have no idea how to write a novel. I’m just like totally in awe of people who write fiction. I have no idea where does that even come from. How do you imagine all of that? I mean that’s totally out of my range of expertise. But, with a non-fiction book, it’s a very sort of almost mechanical process in a way like you can break it down into steps. You’ve got to write about something that you know. Something that you’ve worked with. Either something you’re experienced in, or a personal story that you have to tell or something you’re trained in, something you teach to people. A concept that you know well that you have something to say about. And then, you just break it down into chunks, like chapters. From there, you’re just breaking it down into exactly what points you want to make, what evidence you want like. I know I’m making it sound like unmagical and like very boring, but it is almost a process of if you’re going to write a blog post, you think about what kind of points you want to make, what kind of structure you want to have, and then it’s just doing that on a bigger scale. Obviously, you have to tie everything together. You have to have a key narrative or something that runs throughout the book. So that you’re not just doing disparate chunks of content, but you’re actually telling a story even though it is a non-fiction book. The most important thing is like knowing what you want to say to people. Sometimes books are written like I’m not quite sure like exactly what point the author was trying to make in it. The really valuable thing before you even start is figuring out what do people need to hear. From your audience’s perspective, what do they need to hear from you that they haven’t heard already? What new or unique content can you add to their lives to enhance their experience in life a little bit? And then, how can you tell that like what structure are you going to use? Joseph: One more question about the actual book process. I know you’re saying you break it down, you kind of break it down into chunks. In terms of finding the time in the headspace to sit down and work on your book, how do you do that in a way that’s effective for you? I’m asking you this question because whether it’s a book or any other kind of project, you’ve got to have time and you got to have energy to do it. Where do you build that into your day? Eloise: [23:39] Some people have natural kind of self-discipline to do stuff like this. They have a time every day where they just sit down. I’ve heard writers say, “I get up at 6 a.m., and I write until 9 a.m.” or do it really late in the evening or something. For me, I usually need an external deadline to really like do my best work. I need some kind of element of people depending on me. If I don’t do it, I’m going to get in trouble kind of thing. Joseph: A little bit of pressure. Eloise: [24:07] For me, it’s definitely always been a good thing. I’ve always had a publisher, kind of on my back with a deadline, and that has helped me to power through. It’s more difficult if you’re just doing it as a personal project, you only have yourself to depend on. In that case, I’d say maybe consider setting yourself a deadline, a self-imposed deadline, even if it’s flexible. You can say, “I’m going to have Chapter 1 done by this time. Chapter 2…” You’re holding yourself to some kind of timeline. Joseph: That’s a good tip right there. It’s kind of making sure that you’re working towards something. And so, that you don’t have this infinite timeline where you just end up procrastinating which is what I sometimes often do. Before we talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, I did want to talk briefly about the book itself. Because it’s called “The Purpose Handbook, A Beginner’s Guide to Figuring Out What You’re Here to Do.” I’m just wondering, without giving away any spoilers of the book, for people out there who are thinking, “Gosh! I don’t know what I want to do. I know I don’t want to do what I’m doing right now, but I don’t know what I want to do instead.” Do you have any suggestions on where somebody might at least start? Eloise: [25:21] The number one place to start is with yourself. Getting to know yourself before you start to figure out, “What do I actually want to do with my time?” A lot of the time we start sort of several layers detached from ourselves. We think what would earn good money, what would look good on LinkedIn, or what would sound good to tell my parents that I’m doing, that sort of thing. The trouble with doing that, which is how most people start out, me included, the trouble is sometimes you can do that and then follow a path that is a little bit disconnected from what you want to do as a human being in the world. I’d say start with your personal values. What’s important to you in the world? What kind of things interest you? What kind of things make you excited about waking up in the morning? They don’t have to be job titles. These could be sort of general principles, or concepts, or values, or even relationships with other people or anything really. And then, make a huge list. Write down everything you could ever think of. Go back through that list and see if there are any things that are sort of integrated or any consistent themes that are standing out to you. That might be something like spending time in community, or being an extrovert, or talking to other people. From there, you can start to get the building blocks of what kind of careers would be good for those kind of passions and skills. But you’ve got to start with the personal stuff first, and then work outwards to the more like professional or practical stuff. Joseph: Speaking of personal things and focusing on yourself, I would like to just talk with you about some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way before we wrap up today. I was wondering if you could just start, Eloise, by telling me if you were to look back on your career change, what’s something that you wish you had known that you now know about changing careers? Eloise: [27:13] The biggest thing is no one cares as much as you do about the change of careers. I was worried that making a big change in career would have everyone sort of questioning or saying like, “Oh, you’ve made a big mistake,” or “You’re walking away from something;” or “What are you doing? Do you know what you’re doing?” And those were all my own insecurities projected outwards. I just saw that no one noticed or minded too much if they were interested. It was because they were either thinking about it themselves, or they were inspired, or they were just curious, and no one told me that I was going to make a mistake, or no one seemed overly concerned, or anything. My big thing would be the person who cares the most is you. And, if you know it’s the right decision, worry less about what people are going to say or think. Chances are everyone’s thinking about their own careers anyway, and the judgment is probably mostly in your own head. If you have a strong enough conviction, that you’re doing the right thing, that’s the most important thing you can have. Joseph: Very helpful. I know exactly what you meant. We’re so concerned with what other people are going to think. But at the end of the day, if you think about like how much do you really think about other people on a minute-to-minute basis, it doesn’t really — even your best friends it’s not like they’re in your mind every moment of the day. And so, you’re absolutely right about the fact that we sometimes overestimate how much people are paying attention to the choices that we’re making. The other thing I was wondering about is given the fact that you’ve been on this career change, and I’d say going from a law firm to founding your own company, and also by the way writing a few books on this, I’d say, that’s a pretty major career change. What’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Eloise: [29:02] The biggest thing is that I just have a better sense of who I am now in the career change. I can see that my personality, going back to the identity thing, isn’t wrapped up with the idea of being a lawyer or like having legal skills or even working in the corporate world or even having a job at all. It’s shown me that I do know who I am, and I have quite a firm foundation in my own identity and passions and interests. I’m so much more than any kind of career label at all. Even if I do go back into the corporate world in some capacity, or go back into corporate law at some point, the real gift of this period of time has been to almost find this really firm foundation within myself that I can now rely on whenever I need to. Regardless of any career changes or developments that happen in the future. Joseph: I’d be really curious to hear because it sounds like you have so many different things going on that you find so fulfilling right now. We talked about some of the challenges of making the changes. What do you enjoy the most now about the kind of work that you’re doing? Eloise: [30:09] The idea of making an impact is just really, really exciting to me. That was maybe something I was missing in corporate law a little bit was this sense of shaping the world in the direction that you want it to go in. Being a sort of business owner and being someone who’s actively putting content out into the world is, as you know as well from your own experiences, you feel much more connected to the stuff that you’re doing. Your impact is right there and it’s much more tangible than it is when you’re working in a big corporate firm where you rarely see the outcome of the work that you’re doing in terms of a sort of impact in the world. The idea of making a social impact and sort of changing things in the way that I believe they should be changed towards social mobility, accessibility, diversity, and all of that kind of stuff. That gives me so much energy to continue to push in the businesses, and also with the books and stuff. That’s the biggest thing. Joseph:  Well, speaking of impact, Eloise, I want to wrap up with the book itself is not just a book. I don’t know that some of the proceeds go to a very good cause. Can you tell me a little bit more about where the proceeds go from your book, and I guess you’re also involved with something quite interesting on the side? In addition to everything else you have going on. Eloise: [31:20] The proceeds of this second book, part of the proceeds, go towards Career Ready UK, who are the UK’s national social mobility charity. They do some incredible work with young people, giving them expanded horizons and inspiration for the careers that they can have, and also practical skills workshops, that kind of thing. And, just preparing students from all different backgrounds to the world of work which is such an important thing. Coming from a different background myself to most of my peers when I ended up at university, it’s just something I believe in a lot and I’m very passionate about the idea of everyone being given an equal start in life. Everyone’s starting from the same place, and being taken by your drive and ambition in any direction you want to go in. They’re doing some fantastic work, and I’m excited to be involved with them. [32:09]

How can you get your foot in the door of a new industry if you don’t have the traditional credentials, experiences, or education required? Brad Stewart went from being a tattoo artist to a real estate professional to a marketing manager in the financial sector in spite of lacking the formalised experience or education of most other candidates. In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, we’ll discuss how he pulled off his major career changes by overcoming judgment, imposter syndrome, and adversity along the way. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the opinions of others during my own career transitions. Key Career Insights One way to figure out if you’re on the right path is to look at the people around who have been in your industry for longer than you and asking yourself whether you want to turn out like them. It’s inevitable that people may initially judge you based on your appearance, but the onus is still on you to have your work and results speak for themselves. Career change often involves a total life change too, including your circle of friends, lifestyle, habits, and attitudes. Imposter syndrome faces us all, but doing your best to be logical rather than emotional about how you react to it can help you manage it. Be careful who you listen to. Always seek feedback, but be careful what you take on board. Tweetables to Share Be careful whose advice you listen to. Feedback is often more about the person giving it than the person receiving it. Brad Stewart Tweet This Resources Mentioned At end of the Mental Fuel segment, I mentioned a quote from Baz Luhrmann’s “Everybody’s Free To Wear Sunscreen” song, originally from Mary Schmich’s 1997 Chicago Tribune article. Here’s the full music video: https://youtu.be/sTJ7AzBIJoI Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance of thinking critically about whose feedback you take on board. If you’re struggling with how to navigate your career transition, definitely solicit the opinions of people you admire, but when you do, sense check it against your own gut and what you feel is ultimately going to make the most sense given your specific situation. This is your journey, so do what you feel works best for you. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:04:01 Chat with Brad 00:43:02 Mental Fuel® 00:53:39 Listener Challenge 00:54:07 Listener Voicemail 00:56:01 Wrap Up About Brad Stewart, Tattoo Artist Turned Marketing Manager Brad Stewart has had quite the career journey. He left high school to spend a decade in the tattoo industry as a tattoo artist, working at and managing various shops around Sydney, Australia. He lived & breathed the lifestyle. We’re talking gangsters, parties, drugs . . . you name it. He describes his late teens and early 20s as quite a wild time in his life. Then, at the age of 27, he did a complete 180. He went through two years of intensive laser tattoo removal as he pivoted into a career in real estate, which was part of his total life transformation. After 5 years in the property industry, Brad gained some marketing experience by taking an entry-level job at a ticket-selling company. Eventually, he landed a job in the financial services industry where he currently works as a marketing manager for one of Australia’s largest retirement funds. Follow Brad on LinkedIn and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Belkin for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Belkin for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Belkin provides portable accessories that deliver power, protection, connectivity, audio, and productivity solutions. Whether you’re at home, in the office, or on the go, Belkin empowers people to get more life out of every single day. Check out their full range of products at CAREERRELAUNCH.NET/BELKIN. Interview Segment Music Credits Big Blue Ice Climb Blue Waves Curious Process Night Vision SunBeam Music provided by Podington Bear Dovetail – Crystaline Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I would go through a full 45-minute, hour-long interview just for them to turn around and say, “We love the way that you are. You’ve got a great energy about you. You speak really well. We’ve got no doubt that you’ll do really, really but you can’t have a job with us because of the way you look.” Joseph: Let’s dive right in here. I would love to start by understanding what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Then, we’re going to go back in time and talk about your very interesting career journey from there. Brad: [04:25] I’m from Sydney, Australia. As your listeners could probably tell by the accent. I’m married. I’ve got a lovely little family, two beautiful chihuahuas, and a cat here. I’m currently a marketing manager for a superannuation fund. Superannuation is the Australian equivalent to the 401(k) that is over there in the states. When an employee has a job, they get paid a salary. On top of that salary, it’s compulsory that the employer pays an extra 10% in superannuation. That superannuation goes to a fund. We manage that money on behalf of that particular member. We make sure that their returns and their retirement outcomes are the best that they can be. They can draw down on that money in the form of a pension or a lump sum when they retire. It sort of helps them in their older years. Joseph: You mentioned that you’ve just recently married. You guys got married right at the start of when COVID kicked off. How’s that been like? How’s married life been during COVID? Brad: [05:41] It’s been really good. It’s been great. We were due to do something in 2020 when COVID first hit. We decided to hold that off and see what happens. My partner’s got quite a big family, and we would have loved to have a beautiful celebration as everyone would. But, when we sort of hit the start of 2021, and then things weren’t looking like they were going to go away, we decided to basically just elope here in Sydney. We woke up one day and decided, “Hey! Today’s the day;” and away we went, just her and I. It was beautiful. We’re coming up to 12 months now. Married life is bliss, Joseph. Joseph: Very good to hear. You mentioned you’re working at a superannuation fund right now, in the space of retirement planning that is very different from what you started doing at the very beginning of your career. I was hoping we could go back in time and talk about the chapter from your teenage years through to your late 20s when you were a tattoo artist. I think it’s probably fair to say that that’s probably not the very first thing that most kids would say they want to do when they grow up when you ask them what they’re going to do when they’re going to grow up. How did you get into that? We can move forward from there. Brad: [06:58] Growing up, Joseph, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I sat in school, and I went through school, didn’t particularly want to be there. I had a lot of anxiety as I hit my early teenage years thinking, what am I going to do when I leave school? I have no idea. You know people that they grow up wanting to be policemen. They grow up wanting to be firemen, doctors, whatever the situation was, and I just had absolutely no idea. I ended up hanging out with a couple of kids around the neighborhood, who, one in particular’s older brother owned a tattoo shop. That whole lifestyle of tattoos and big tough guys, and that whole scene for an impressionable 15-, 16-year-old, not having much direction with where they wanted to go, seemed quite appealing. It’s something that I kind of just fell into, if that makes sense. The more I sort of immerse myself in that lifestyle, I had a natural talent for art that I didn’t realize I had until I started in that particular role. I fell into it, and it just kind of snowballed from there. Joseph: This was during high school, is that right? That you left high school to pursue tattoo? Brad: [08:22] Yes. I left school at the end of year 10. It was just before I turned 17. I started working in a shop, in a place called Parramatta, which is here in Sydney. It’s probably the second-largest city in Sydney. I started my apprenticeship and away I went. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to leave high school when you started high school? Were you planning on finishing? Is that something that was crossing your mind on? Brad: [08:55] No, I always wanted to leave. School for me was just a place I had to go. I wasn’t a naughty kid or anything like that, but I just didn’t want to be there. I was just disinterested in school. I had the issue on the other side. It was like, “Well, what am I going to do if I’m not here?” I sort of found a job in a shop, and that was an excuse for me to get out of there. Joseph: You get into this world of, let’s call it broadly, “becoming a tattoo artist.” I know you sent me a few articles before we spoke today about the scene in that industry. Can you just give me a glimpse into just what the scene is like in the tattoo industry and working at a tattoo shop? Part of the reason why I ask, Brad, is like you and I have met virtually on camera. You probably can tell I’m a fairly clean-cut guy. I have to admit, I’ve never stepped foot in a tattoo parlor. What’s that world like? Brad: [09:57] It’s different. I think since I’ve left, things have somewhat changed and cleaned up a little bit. The industry in Sydney is essentially run by outlaw motorcycle clubs, so biker gangs. To own a shop, you need to be in a bike club, or you need to be paying someone in a bike club. Along with that comes the consequences. I know some of the articles that I sent you across back from when I was working in the industry where tattoo shops getting shot, firebombed. I think I sent you one. Joseph: Rammed with vehicles. Brad: [10:39] A car was rammed into a front of a shop and set on fire because they wouldn’t pay their stand over money that they were told they had to pay in order to operate. That was fairly common. Something would happen like that on probably a fortnightly basis in Sydney. It was a dangerous industry to be in, and it was a dangerous workplace to be in. I know that there was a particular shop that I was working at in Western Sydney. Once every couple of weeks, the boss would walk in and he’d say, “Lock the back door. Lock the front door. Don’t let anyone in except your customers because all that’s going on, and we might get a knock on the door.” It’s a very dangerous environment to be in. It was an environment where if you didn’t have your wits about you, and you weren’t very aware of your surroundings that at times, you could have got in a lot of trouble. Joseph: Was this something that you felt each and every day? I guess what’s behind my question is the average person who comes on to this show is not someone who works in what we would consider a dangerous industry. Did this bother you at all? Did it just seem like what was normal in your world? Brad: [11:52] When I first got into it, I was attracted to that sort of lifestyle. The whole ego image that you’re projecting, that people I’m working in a tattoo shop and hanging out with these kinds of people. It’s one of those things that made me puff my chest out and be proud of. There was a time when I was about 22, it was a couple of days before Christmas, where the boss that I was working for at the time had upset somebody. I worked in the same shop in Parramatta that I started in. It was upstairs, it was on a street called “Church Street.” Anyone in Sydney knowing Church Street, Parramatta is it has very, very busy restaurants everywhere. A bunch of people walked into the shop, and they smashed the entire shop. They smashed me up with the shop. I don’t remember a whole week of my life after that. From that point on, there was probably maybe three to six months, I took a break from the industry after that because that was something that kind of really opened my eyes and sort of shook me up a little bit. But, once I got over that, nothing bothered me after that, in a weird way. That happened, I took a little bit of a break and just did some odd jobs here and there to pay the bills and so on. It was like if that didn’t stop me, nothing will. I was totally fine after that. Joseph: At this point, you’ve been in the industry for a few years, and you have this happen. You decide you’re going to stay in the industry. Before we talk about your transition, can you also give me a glimpse into who was your clientele like? Could you give me a sampling of the types of people who would come into your shop to get tattoos? Brad: [13:42] It was everybody. It was anybody from your 18-year-old guy who wanted to get tattoos to impress the girls and impress his mates, to mothers who had lost children, getting small little memorial tattoos, to people in biker clubs who wanted to get a lot of tattoos as well. It was very varied. I would tattoo policemen, doctors, and a lot of people that are in the corporate environment now, as well as people that you wouldn’t expect. I tattooed a love heart on a lady in her late 70s, who I remember being my oldest client. She just wanted to do it, so she got a little love heart on her upper arm. It was a varied clientele, no particular demographic. Joseph: As someone who worked in that industry for over a decade, do you feel like there’s any common misconception that people have about tattoo artists or tattoo shops that you feel you could just dispel right now? Brad: [14:45] Probably not tattoo shops, but tattoo artists and people with tattoos. There’s that stigma where if you’re covered in tattoos or you’ve got a lot of tattoos, you’re some kind of horrible criminal or some kind of a really bad person, or whatever the case might be. But, everybody gets tattoos. I said to my mother when I came home with my first really visible tattoo, I said, “If this is the worst thing I ever do, you should be happy.” It’s a reflection on who you are. People are putting on their bodies things that mean a lot to them, that represents them. It’s a way people tell their story of their life and who they are through pictures on their body. The rumor that I would dispel is that people that have tattoos are bad, horrible people which is just not the case. Joseph: I’m one of those people who is probably somewhat judgmental with people who have tattoos. I don’t know why. It’s like a stereotype. Brad: [15:46] For what reason though? I mean, if you look at these shows on TV and these news reports. Joseph: Prison Break, or something. Brad: [15:52] Prison Break. Even like reality crime shows, and Australia’s or America’s Most, there are always tattooed people against us. They’re always tattooed and there’s that stigma. It’s the normal people that also enjoy looking that way and doing those kinds of things that are totally normal. It’s a funny one because even myself now, I often look at some people and go, “Oh God! I don’t want to walk past you.” And then, I kind of look at myself and go, “Hang on a minute. What are you doing?” A funny story was my wife boarded an Uber once. She refused to get in it because the Uber driver had a sleeve tattoo and had a tattoo on his head. She goes, “I don’t want to get in the car with him because he’s covered in tattoos.” I said, “Darling, look who you’re married to.” There is always that stigma there. It’s very hard to get rid of. Joseph: You’re working in the tattoo industry from your teenage years through to your late 20s. That moment you shared earlier when you got beaten up in the shops and the shop got kind of ransacked, but can you take me back to the moment when you did decide, “Okay, something’s got to change in my career”? Brad: [17:15] It was a culmination of things. I was in the industry for circa 10 years at the time, and I was looking at older people, older tattooers that had been in the industry for 20, 30, 40 years. I was just starting to observe as I got older myself, and started to mature a little bit myself, how I wanted the rest of my life to pan out. There’s no better way than seeing how you’re going to turn out. I don’t think than seeing the way the people around you are or have turned out. For me, it was a decision that I literally woke up one day and made the decision that there was more to life for me. I wasn’t interested in doing this anymore. I wasn’t interested in being around this environment anymore, and I made the decision to change. There was no catalyst. It was just a build-up of probably 6 to 12 months of seeing this person over there, seeing that person over here, and just saying, “I don’t want this life anymore.” I want more. Joseph: What did you do next when you realized that you wanted to make a change? Brad: [18:31] I started to change myself. I always had the short Mohawk haircut. I was always someone who never really took a great deal of pride in my appearance when I was in that industry. I started by making some changes to myself. The way I dressed, the way I’ve had my hair, the way I spoke, the way I interacted with customers, just to bring myself a level above what I was previously. The big decision for me, Joseph, was, “What am I going to do?” By this point, I had tattoos on my hand right down on my fingertips on both hands. I had tattoos right up to my chin, all along my throat, my neck. I’ve got tattoos on my head. I kind of sort of thought, “What am I going to do for the rest of my life?” I’ve made the decision that working in the tattoo industry isn’t it, but what is? I started to research what I was going to do with the rest of my life. I sat down one afternoon, and I went on Google. I googled something along the lines of “What job can you do where you don’t have a qualification that pays a fair decent salary?” Bearing in mind, I have and still have no formal qualifications, no university degree, or college degree, or anything like that. I’ve got a couple of little certificates here and there that I needed as part of my career transition, but what am I going to do? The one role, the one industry that kept popping up was real estate, and that was it. It had to be real estate. Joseph: How much did the education come up as a barrier for you? Not having the high school education, not having the college degree. Was that an issue or was it not so much an issue? Brad: [20:17] It’s proven that it hasn’t, so far. I think the higher I get up in the corporate environment, I think it might become somewhat of an issue. Especially nowadays, a lot of it’s about your output, and about results, and about what you can do, and your ability and willing to learn. So far, I haven’t been held back by not having any formal degrees, and I’m hoping that’s going to continue. I have to see how that one goes. I’ve had some different feedback on that. Some people are saying you will need to do something or you’re only going to get to a certain level without it. But, we’ll just have to see. Joseph: Real estate popped up as an option. Can you take me through exactly how your first opportunity panned out in real estate? I know you mentioned that you were covered in tattoos. I’d be interested to hear how much that played a role in your first job or attempts to get a job in the real estate industry. Brad: [21:13] I ended up googling every real estate agency in Sydney. I ended up then emailing just about every real estate agent and agency in Sydney that explains who I was, what my background was, how I looked, what I was hoping to achieve by changing industries. I just sort of shot that out to everybody in the hope that somebody would come back to me and say, “However, [unintelligible], you can have a job with us.” I got a lot of responses. Some responses I got pretty instantly were, “No, thank you. We’re not looking at hiring.” Some were, “If you’ve got tattoos, this isn’t the industry for you.” Joseph: That was because of your appearance that they were saying no to. Brad: [22:04] Because of the appearance. I got interviewed on many occasions. I would probably say maybe 8 to 10 agencies called me in for an interview. Here’s me, putting on my suit and tie, and thinking, “I’ve got a real shot at this.” I would see it go through a full 45-minute, hour-long interview just for them to turn around and say, “We love the way that you are. You’ve got a great energy about you. You speak really well. We’ve got no doubt that you’ll do really, really well in this industry, but you can’t have a job with us because of the way you look.” That happened multiple times. Luckily, I’m stubborn. I know what I want and I’m a bit stubborn, so I didn’t let that stop me. I just kept pushing, and eventually found an agency that gave me a shot which was really, really good. But, that issue of the way I look never went away. My first day with this new agency, again in Parramatta, funnily enough, I walked in the front door of the office on my first day. I said hello to my boss, and he gave me a key instantly to the back door and said, “When you enter or leave the office, can you do it through the back door? Because I don’t want my clientele seeing you with all those tattoos at the front of the office.” He gave me a desk at the back of the office. My role was basically on the phone. There was no sort of face-to-face interaction, and like I said, I was to enter and leave through the back. He often said that I was a little bit of an experiment for him just to see whether or not someone that looked like me could do any good. I ended up doing okay which was interesting. I eventually ended up getting face-to-face in front of real-life clients that the way I looked was quite refreshing to them because real estate agents, they all kind of wear the same cheap suits and drive the same flashy cars. And then, here’s me with tattoos on my neck and on my hands and had a really different look than what everyone else in our area had. I was definitely memorable, Joseph. Joseph: I’ll bet, yeah. You’re working in residential real estate at this point in time. What was the journey like for you once you got past the initial resistance to things like your appearance, or maybe the lack of education, or things like that? Brad: [24:33] It was a great one, Joseph. I did learn a lot about who I was as a person. I was making 2,500 cold calls a month by that stage. I was able to get out into the open and into the public. I was knocking on 50 to 100 doors a day, asking strangers if they wanted to sell their houses. I learned a lot during my time as an agent about things like resilience, how a business worked. I was learning a lot about how to get people, how to influence people to do things. I was learning how to sell. I was learning how to sell myself. I was learning how to sell a product. I was honing those skills of people management, stakeholder management. Trying to make sure I was engaging at every step in the journey, presentations, developing strategies. I was putting in the groundwork of what would be my current role now in marketing. I didn’t really have a purpose to be there, if that makes sense. I sort of fell into it because that’s the only thing I felt I could do at that particular time. I didn’t really have a why and why I wanted to be in the industry. It was just, “This is all I could do.” It’s something I wasn’t overly passionate about. But, I would go back and do it again because it’s laid an outstanding foundation for me to be able to build on for the rest of my career. Joseph: What triggered you to then start to explore other sectors? I know that you eventually moved into financial services. How did that come about for you? Brad: [26:13] In real estate, it’s a very tough industry in terms of you’re not paid a salary. You’re on commission only, which means if you don’t make a sale or find a listing, you don’t get paid. Along with that comes the cutthroat culture in a particular office where you’d be, in some instances, fighting with the person on the desk next to you about who’s going to get the particular listing or who gets to make the sale. If you’re not in that industry for a very long time, you don’t get the opportunity to develop that clientele and develop those relationships. If you’re not in an office that supports development and growth, and you’re in an office that’s focused on nothing but numbers, it gets to a point where you’re not doing very well, and you are sort of bound by market forces and other different things. So, the market will go up, the market will go down, nobody will sell. Then all of a sudden, it’ll roll over again and there’ll be a lot of properties on the market for sale. For me, financial securities are really important thing, and I wanted to be in a role where I had a steady income and a steady salary. I also wanted to be in an industry and have a role that had meaning to it for me. I started to enjoy the more marketing and strategic side of real estate, more so than the interaction with people and the sales. For me, it took probably again 6 to 12 months to try and understand where that lay outside. As I mentioned before, financial security is quite important to me. My parents were self-employed. Growing up, I saw my dad get up and go to work every day to make sure that we could pay for the roof over our heads. He’d get up at dark and come home at dark. Seeing that as I was growing up made me feel a lot about financial security and wanting to help people be financially secure, which led me to financial services. Joseph: I’m listening to your story here, Brad. First of all, it’s very impressive that you’re able to make these moves from the tattoo industry into working in real estate, and then eventually into the finance industry. Did you find anything, in particular, to be challenging along the way? I’m thinking in particular about just being new in a brand-new industry. You’re the newcomer and you don’t necessarily have the traditional kind of linear background most people might have in that industry. Was that ever a challenge or an issue for you? I’d just be curious to hear about that because it’s something that comes up a lot with people who are moving into new sectors or roles or functions. Brad: [29:26] They’re extremely challenging. There’s not been a move that I’ve made that hasn’t been challenging. There’s two big points, right? The first point was moving from tattooing into real estate. That was challenging because, not only a career change, that was a whole lifestyle change, right? I cleaned up the entire way. I live my life. I changed my circle of friends. I changed the way I spoke. I changed the way I look. I changed the way I interacted with people. I changed what I did for a living. Probably, the change into the change of jobs was probably the easiest change as opposed to the rest of my life that I had to change along with it. Moving from real estate into the marketing world was a big challenge, and a challenge I kind of still face today even though I’m in a position where I feel like I’m supposed to be. The marketing world, as you probably know yourself, it’s very much based on experience. Not having that qualification, not having in real estate, the formal marketing experience, even though a lot of what we did in real estate was marketing. To get into financial services, I needed, as silly as it sounds, I needed at least 12 months with the word “marketing” in my job title. What I had to do was go from that time in real estate where I was doing okay. I was kicking goals. I wasn’t setting the world on fire, but I had a level of a reputation around the area as someone who knew what they were doing was fairly competent and I didn’t have any issues in that regard. To looking for an entry-level job purely because it had the word “marketing” in it, which would allow me to take my next step. Taking a step backwards to go forwards was really, really tough. I had to do that twice. I had to do that moving into marketing. I went into an eCommerce sales-based business where we sold tickets to events and I had to move right back to the start, do almost a 12-month apprenticeship for it to be formalized. And then, take that same entry-level role into the financial services industry where I could get 12 months of financial services experience before I could take a step out and get into an actual full-time proper marketing role. That whole transition was probably the toughest point of my career so far, I think. Joseph: I can imagine. I’m just thinking that with each of these steps, it sounds like you were just patiently and persistently progressing in the direction that you wanted to go. Did you deal with any sort of imposter syndrome along the way? And if so, how did you manage that with each of these steps? Brad: [32:26] Imposter syndrome. It’s something that I even faced today. It’s something that I’ll have for the foreseeable future. I think a lot of people have that. The fact that I had such a different background. The fact that I looked the way I looked, especially moving into real estate. Having those naysayers who said, “You’ll never get anywhere. You’ll never do well because of the way you look. People don’t want to talk to you.” Things like that always play in the back of your mind. When you’re sitting in the living room, and the mother and a father who were looking at selling their family home, I often thought, “Are these people not going to give this to me because of the way I look?” I always felt like I didn’t belong where I was. Moving into the business outside of real estate, that ticketing business. I felt like I didn’t belong there. I wasn’t supposed to be there. I felt that I was supposed to be somewhere else because I knew that I was worth so much more than what I was in that particular business. Then moving into financial services, I took another step back and kind of felt like, “I’m in a real business now. This is a business that manages a lot of money, has a great responsibility that comes along with this particular role. I’m under-qualified. I don’t know what I’m doing, and I’m going to get a lot of mischief here because I’m going to get found out and all these particular things that you worry about.” At the end of the day, I’ve got a great support network, my wife. She’s unbelievable. She really puts things into perspective for me and she just said, “You know what you’re doing. You’ve got all the experience. Just back yourself and you’ll be fine.” Once I realized that’s just the anxieties of the change, that’s probably all normal. I felt it more than most. But, sitting back, understanding where I was looking at things logically, instead of emotionally, I was really able to sort of just calm down and take it step by step. Now, things are working out well. I still feel it now and again. I try to overcompensate with things that I do to make sure that I’m always on the front foot with things. Using a lot of initiative and starting new things and going above and beyond in that particular role just to prove a point, “Here I am. Here’s what I can do,” which helps me mentally. It’s been tough at certain points. Joseph: I want to wrap up, Brad, with a few of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey. I suppose the very first thing that comes to mind for me is just thinking about how radically different your world and your work was as a tattoo artist versus what you’re doing now in the superannuation fund, in the marketing space. What, if anything, did you learn during your days as that tattoo artist that now shows up in your daily career or even your life right now? Brad: [35:32] That’s a tough one to answer because the craziness of that tattoo world became normal. Since I’ve moved on from there, I try and block a lot of it out. But, a lot of the things that I learned back then that I’ve been able to use now is how to deal with people. That whole self-awareness piece. One minute, I might have been tattooing a mother who had lost a child and was upset and was getting a tattoo as a memorial to that particular event. And then, my very next appointment after that might have been someone in a bike club who was really, really angry, and just didn’t have time to talk and was just a mean nasty person. I really had to learn how to deal with those two conflicting situations because no two people are the same, and people are very funny creatures. Understanding how to read people, how to analyze a situation, how to learn when I was in a dangerous situation or a dangerous position, or a position where something could have gone wrong, and understanding how the mechanics of how all that works is something that I’ve taken on and still use at some point to this day. I sort of translate that into making further career moves and career steps, and people you align yourselves with, and having a bit of a strategy as to how the rest of you know my career is going to pan out. It’s sort of indirect, but there are a lot of things that I draw on from back in the day of being a tattooist that have somewhat followed me through. It’s a really difficult question. Joseph: You mentioned strategy there, Brad. Now, if you had to give advice to your younger self, as it relates to navigating these career changes, what might that be? Brad: [37:38] I think there’s two things that I would tell my younger self. The first thing is to be careful who you’ll listen to. Always seek feedback and advice but be careful what you take on board and who you take that on board from. We need to remember that people’s feedback and people’s advice and people’s opinions are always based on their own experiences. It includes their insecurities and their own biases. Sometimes, feedback can be really, really useful, and really, really helpful, and really insightful. Sometimes, feedback can say more about the person giving it than it can about you, the person receiving it. There’s a lot of frenemies in the corporate world I’ve come to learn. It’s understanding who’s on your side, who’s on your team. And, just being careful around that. The second thing that I would tell myself would be make sure every move you make is very deliberate and very purposeful. Not getting distracted with flashy lights and things that shine all the time. Making sure that everything you do aligns to why you’re doing what you’re doing. Every career move you make aligns to your long-term goal. And block out the distractions, and don’t be too easily influenced. Joseph: That is some great advice there, Brad. I think that there’s so many people who whether you solicit the opinions or not of those people, they want to weigh in on your career decisions and your moves. You’re absolutely right. It’s completely biased by their own experiences and their own insecurities sometimes. It’s hard to find somebody who’s truly objective with this. Brad: [39:33] If I listen to everybody for every interview I went into as a real estate agent, if I listen to all of them, I wouldn’t be here today. I’ll probably still be sitting in a tattoo shop somewhere because to them, they had a bias that tattoo people weren’t going to amount to anything or wouldn’t fit in the industry. I chose not to take that on board when I very easily could have taken that on board. If I had, I wouldn’t be here. It’s just being very mindful about who you listen to. Joseph: Last question here for you, Brad. You mentioned earlier that you learned a lot about yourself as a person through some of these moves. Clearly, you’ve faced a lot of naysayers along the way. Yet, you persisted through it all. When you think about your career change journey, going from tattoo artists to working in real estate to financial services, is there one thing in particular that you have learned about yourself that stands out to you? Brad: [40:28] What I’ve learned is I’m actually able to do anything I want to do. Going through life, there’s always doubt. You always question whether what you’ve done is the right decision, and you’re always thinking, “Should I have done something different? Am I on the right path?” What I’ve learned about myself is I have the guts to change. I’m pragmatic enough to be able to do that. I’ve learned that I can shape my own future however I want to, and it’s up to me to do that. I’ve got the ability to do it. It’s that whole part of believing in myself. Even though there’s been times where I’ve felt like I’m in that position or in a role where I haven’t belonged, I do belong right where I am right now. I can do anything I put my mind to. Joseph: Thank you so much Brad for telling me more about your former life as a tattoo artist and how you made some of these radical career pivots in the face of a lot of challenge. As you just mentioned, the importance of being selective about whose opinions you take on and the power of belief. Best of luck to you with your current role. I hope it all continues to go well for you. Brad: [41:48] Thank you very much, Joseph. It was great to have a chat with you. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to come on your show. Joseph: I hope you heard some useful insights from Brad about overcoming the judgments of others, managing imposter syndrome, and entering a new industry when you haven’t followed a traditional career path to get there. [42:07]

If you’re not happy with your current job, but you don’t know exactly what you would prefer to do instead, what should do do? Bommy Lee, a journalist turned communications head of life sciences venture capital firm Sofinnova, shares her career insights on the power of professional relationships when relaunching your career, the importance of reconsidering your earlier career choices, and why being content with where you are doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll happy with where you’re headed. Originally from Canada, Bommy is now based in Paris, France. I first crossed paths with Bommy when she spoke on an alumni career panel after a career change workshop I hosted for Executive MBAs at HEC Business School in Paris. I decided to invite her to share her story on the show because I felt like she provided some especially thoughtful perspectives on navigating career changes, and thought you might also enjoy hearing her thoughts and advice on topics related to networking, mindset, and career decisions. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also address a listener’s question about how to figure out your next career move when no particular direction jumps out to you. Key Career Insights Networking is about building a safety net for the future. Try to make meaningful connections so that if and when the time comes, your network can work for you. Try to go into networking focused on serving and giving rather than taking. Focus on being authentic and useful. Career change is something that’s difficult to do on your own. Just because you feel content with all the things you currently have in your life, it doesn’t mean you’re necessarily happy with where your life is headed. A job can really define your identity. When you begin to question your career path, it often leads you to also question other parts of your life beyond your career. Career change can feel very lonely and solitary at times when you struggle to find people around you who truly understand your situation. There’s a point where you’re willing to leave everything behind because the opportunity ahead is so much great. Once you realize that the limitations you’re experiencing are actually self-imposed, you’re able to get over those limitations. Tweetables to Share Being happy with your current career doesn't necessarily mean you're happy with where it's headed. Bommy Lee Tweet This Bommy referred to this quote during our conversation that you may find relevant to your own career situation if you’ve been unhappy with your work for a while now: Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Say you’re running and you think, ‘Man, this hurts, I can’t take it anymore. The ‘hurt’ part is an unavoidable reality, but whether or not you can stand anymore is up to the runner himself. Haruki Murakami Tweet This Listener Challenge If you know you’re not happy with your current role, but you’re not sure what to do instead, during this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you, is to force yourself to take some proactive action, which I believe is what leads to opportunity and further illumination. So whether it’s doing something more reflective like reconnecting with your values or childhood or something more active like doing some information interviews with people in industries you’re considering, I hope you can eventually then take your best guess and what could make you happier. About Bommy Lee, Head of Communications at Sofinnova Partners Bommy Lee is the Head of Communications at Sofinnova Partners, where she heads up the global communications strategy for a leading European venture capital firm in life sciences that invests into healthcare and sustainability. Previously, Bommy worked in startups building international brands and communications strategies in the medtech sector. But she started her career 20 years ago as a journalist for the International Herald Tribune. She’s originally from Canada and now based in Paris, France. Follow her on LinkedIn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Bommy know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Looking for another podcast with useful advice? I wanted to mention another podcast to check out. Have you ever wondered how to manage imposter syndrome? Or how to confront a bad manager? If so, be sure to check out the How To! podcast with Amanda Ripley who’s a best-selling author and investigative reporter on the hunt for answers to life’s toughest questions. Each week, listeners reach out with their problems, and Amanda connects them with the perfect experts who offer advice that can be life-changing. You can even hear my OWN chat with Amanda about how to advance your career by quitting your job in the Nov 16, 2021 episode. Look for How To! from Slate wherever you listen to podcasts. Interview Segment Music Credits Big Blue Serenity Trinity Alps Chimera 88 Button Mushrooms Stars Are Out Music provided by Podington Bear Birds – Corbyn Kites Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Someone close to me died suddenly and it really affected me. I started thinking about my own existence, and whether I was truly living a life that had meaning. A lot of the time, the answer was no… Joseph: Good morning, Bommy. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Bommy: [02:16] Thank you for having me, Joseph. Joseph: What are you focused on right now in your career and your life, amid everything going on? Bommy: [02:23] Well, I started my current job just over a year ago. At the time, I had just finished my Executive MBA Program and was looking for a change. I had a couple of offers on the table, and one of them, on paper at least, would have been a much bigger leap for me. But, in the end, I decided to go at this one. I have to say it was the best decision of my life. Joseph: Can you give us a glimpse into your role at Sofinnova Partners, which is a VC firm in life sciences? What are you focused on there? Bommy: [02:26] It’s a really exciting time in communications for this sector because finance, in particular, private equity, is not what you would call at the cutting edge of communications. If you can think about one finance company that is doing some groundbreaking things in comms, there aren’t a whole lot that would come to mind. And so, there’s a lot we can do to shift that. I’m heading up the communications team in Sofinnova, and that’s very exciting because I feel like it’s a little bit of a start-up initiative within a larger organization. There’s a lot of possibility and the start-up world is one that I love. Joseph: It seems like a really exciting space to be in right now, especially when healthcare is so forefront in the news and in our lives at this particular moment. I want to go back in time and talk about your time before you worked in communications out of VC firm in the life sciences there in Paris but before that, can you just also tell me a little bit about where you’re from originally, where your family’s from, your personal background? Bommy: [03:58] I was born in Canada. My family is Korean Canadian. They immigrated to Canada after the war. We ended up going back to Korea when I was in high school. I finished up my studies there. I went back to Canada to go to journalism school, and then, came to France about 20 years ago, to continue my studies in political science. My parents are in Korea. My brother is in Malaysia, and I have another brother in Canada. It’s a challenge to see each other but we’re very close. That’s been one of the hardest parts about the pandemic is not being able to just get on a plane and see the people you love which, as an expat, you really count on that facility and the possibility of being able to do that at any time. Joseph: Yeah, that is really tough. I was just talking to my wife this morning about just not knowing exactly when I can go back to the United States, which is where I’m from because I’ve been there over a year and a half now, and there’s a lot of uncertainty around that. Speaking of mobility, you mentioned journalism and how you studied journalism. Can we go back in time a little bit and talk about your time in the world of journalism? And then, we can move forward from there and maybe we could start with your time at the International Herald Tribune. Bommy: [05:18] At the time, it was called the “International Herald Tribune.” And then, it was rebranded “The International New York Times.” I was there when a lot of those changes were happening. As part of a great team that were spearheading the digital side of journalism. At the time, we were taking the print version of the paper and uploading it onto the website. We were calling it the “website,” the exact copy of the print version that day was our website. Joseph: Like PDFs or something? Bommy: [05:50] Almost. Practically, a PDF. Very cut-and-paste kind of job, and very manual. This is early 2000s, Twitter happened. We started seeing the potential of the web. We started seeing that sending reporters and photographers out to these sometimes war zones, very dangerous areas, they were coming back with amazing reporting, photography, and the print format is limited. Whereas, digital, you could make a slideshow with 12 of the best photos. You could have an interview with a reporter about what it was like to be on the scene, and not be limited in space or by deadlines. There was a shift in the industry, and it was very exciting because there was a lot of change going on. In that sense, I was very lucky to be there when that was happening and meeting people who were willing to take that risk and try something new. That was my time with the IHT. Very, very fond memories. Joseph: I know you said you’re from Canada, and then you moved. It sounds like your first professional experience was in Paris. What was that like for you to make that sort of geographical, and also cultural, change that early on in your career? Bommy: [07:09] The IHT was my first real professional experience in Paris. It was based in Noisiel Siene, which is just outside of Paris. That was a very expat, American, Anglophone experience. There was a multicultural group, but it was still very North American in its culture. The way we work, we ate at our desks. We learned a lot from our truly French colleagues, who had a different way of working. I didn’t get to experience that fully until I left journalism and joined the start-up world in a French med-tech start-up, specializing in [unintelligible] microscopy. That was really my first French experience in the workplace. That also was quite international, but it’s the first time I was exposed to a lot of different ways of working. It’s a big learning experience for me. Joseph: How did you end up making that shift from journalism into the world of medical technology? Was that just an interest of yours? Did it sort of opportunistically happen? Bommy: [08:15] It was very serendipitous in a way. I had been at the Herald Tribune for I think it was 5, 6 years. The digital operations started doing well and they wanted to bring it back to the mothership in New York. I wasn’t ready to leave Paris at the time, so I left. In the meantime, I had my first two daughters. I wasn’t in a hurry to go back into the working world. I wanted to spend some quality time with our new family. I’ve had a couple shifts in my career and in each time, it’s been closely tied to people. People who were willing to take a chance on me, even if I didn’t come from their world and have the usual credentials and people who were leading a vision or mission I believed in and I wanted to be part of. So, when I was on the unemployment list in France, you’re obligated to send out a few CVs a month to show that you’re actively searching to get your benefits. I ended up, not very actively, but I ended up speaking to someone who was looking for an addition to the marketing communications team to help on the digital side. Since I’ve been working on the digital side at the Trib, that’s what got me my foot in. But, it’s a whole new world. I didn’t know start-ups. I’d never worked in a French company before. I didn’t know anything about medicine. I’m not a scientist, so there was a lot of unknowns. But, what motivated me was the person that was hiring me. Their vision, the vision of the company. All of that felt exciting, and we had the potential of helping people to detect cancer more easily, and be alleviated of the anxiety around that, and get a diagnosis much faster, more accurately. That part of it spoke to me. So, I jumped in. Joseph: You mentioned something there, Bommy, that I think comes up a lot with people when they’re thinking about making a change, which is to pursue roles that, at least on paper, may not seem like they are directly aligned with your background or your skill set. You mentioned that people were willing to give you an opportunity even though you didn’t necessarily come from that specific sector. What was it about your approach or how you went about this, that you felt opened the doors to you with these opportunities that didn’t initially seem like they would be possible or viable? Bommy: [10:48] I think opportunities are linked to people. If you are able to demonstrate to someone, even though they don’t know whether you’re able to deliver on a certain type of job description, you’re able to demonstrate that you’re able and willing. That you have a background or a track record, not necessarily in the same domain, but transferable skills, that could be valuable to a job. Even though it’s completely a new sector or a new type of role. I think that’s where the key is. That’s also what has given me subsequent opportunities in areas. After that particular role in that start-up, I went on to another start-up that was less in the B2B space, more in the B2C or B2C2B space in diabetes, in novel technology for insulin delivery for type 1 diabetes. That is much more speaking directly to the consumer, to the end-user. I had no experience in retail before. But, the person who gave me that opportunity was also someone I had crossed paths with in the past, and she believed that I could come and do the job. A lot of it has to do with making those connections with people who will open those doors for you. I’m very grateful to them for having given me that chance. Joseph: Can you just share a glimpse into your approach to networking? It sounds like these people you’ve come across have been quite useful, helpful people in your life. At the same time, I know that some people who are networking or building professional relationships sometimes will tell me, “Well, they’re not really fruitful, or they’re not materializing into anything.” What’s your mindset when you go about connecting with people professionally or just building out your professional network? Bommy: [12:39] Networking for me is building a safety net for the future. The approach that is very important to take in networking is not that you’re trying to sell yourself or trying to find opportunities for yourself, but that you are trying to be useful to someone and make a meaningful connection. When or if the time comes, because sometimes it never does, it’s an investment. You never know what it’s going to end up being like. If you go into a networking opportunity with the mindset that, “I’m going to try to find a way to be completely authentic, to find people that I connect with naturally and find ways to be useful to that person,” even if it’s a really small thing. Like, “Oh, are you in Paris for the first time? Do you know a good restaurant? Can I make a recommendation?” Just finding connections or common threads that you can connect on. I think it’s all about the human relationship. I’m sure you’ve heard of Adam Grant’s theory on givers and takers. If you go into a simple conversation, you can tell when someone is there because they want something from you. Or, you can tell when they’re just there to have a nice exchange, and that comes across. The best kind of networking is really when you can go into a conversation with a serving mindset, a helpful mindset, a giving mindset, rather than taking. Joseph: It’s really helpful advice. A good reminder that it’s definitely about relationship building, and it can be better to think about it more long term. You mentioned the experience you had in diabetes management. That was at the Cellnovo Group in Paris. Is that correct? Bommy: [14:26] Exactly. Joseph: What was that like for you to work in the space of diabetes management? How did you think your career was going to evolve there and then how did it ultimately evolve? Bommy: [14:35] It was a very exciting opportunity because I was able to see much more clearly the impact our work was having on people’s lives, on the quality of their life. I was able to meet directly with patients who were using our technology. That’s very motivating. That’s sort of the red thread between what I did in journalism. What I’ve found in healthcare is there’s a public service that you’re contributing to the world. In journalism, that was information so that people could make decisions and run democracies. In healthcare, we’re working on innovative technologies that can help save lives and help people to be happier. I need that kind of deeper purpose, I suppose. That’s what gets me up in the morning, knowing that I am contributing to something that is helping others. Joseph: The other topic I would like to talk with you about is during your time at Cellnovo, you decided to pursue an executive MBA. Can you just explain to me what was your thinking behind that? How did you come to the decision that you wanted to go back to school? What prompted you to pursue an executive MBA? Bommy: [15:55] I would have to take you a few years back to when I decided to embark on a career change. I think the first factor was that my youngest daughter finally started sleeping through the night. Until that point, my husband and I have been on survival mode trying to remain relatively functional and coherent. Our lives revolved around the daily routines and needs of our three daughters. It’s completely normal but it’s exhausting. Suddenly, when they were out of diapers, going to school, sleeping regularly, I was able to lift my head and see beyond the fogginess of sleep deprivation. That’s when things started becoming more clear. It’s also when things started hitting me and I realized, “Hmm, not sure I like what I see ahead.” At the same time, there was a second trigger. Someone close to me died suddenly. It was the first time I experienced such a loss, and it affected me. I started thinking about my own existence, and whether I was truly living a life that had meaning. A lot of the time, the answer was no. So, I decided, “I’m going to have to do something about this.” I don’t know what. Looking back at that time, I gravitated towards books about death because it helped me to clarify life, its purpose, my purpose, and how I wanted to write the rest of my story. That brings me to your question about the MBA. The third thing that happened in this big shift was I enrolled in a part-time executive MBA. I didn’t know at the time exactly what I wanted but my goal was to come out on the other end with more knowledge, more options, and more confidence to be able to change the direction of my career and my life. Joseph: I had a client of mine just asked me about this topic of going back to school. He’s been working for a while in the corporate world. One of the questions that he has, and one of the hesitations that I often hear come up when people talk about returning to school are things like the opportunity cost of stepping away from work. I know that’s not directly relevant in your case because you’re still working full time when you’re doing an executive MBA. But, how did you think about the trade-offs between just putting your head down, continuing to focus on work, versus adding yet another task on top of your already busy life and pursuing an executive MBA? Bommy: [18:34] I think it was the realization that I was very unhappy, and that the road ahead was not one that was going to be enough for me. It really was this realization that I was unhappy, that I had done everything I thought I should do to fulfill all the criteria that should lead to a good life. Going to good schools, getting a job, finding a life partner, having kids, giving back to the community, all those things that I thought should make me happy and fulfilled, and then coming to realization that I actually know this was not going to cut it for me. It was really hard when I realized one day that I had no idea how I got here. Everything I had worked towards so diligently might have been for all the wrong reasons. It made me dig very deep into the past, childhood experiences, painful moments that I may have buried or brushed over. I found myself revisiting everything, questioning everything. Joseph: Was there something in particular that you felt was missing from your career or your life at the time? Bommy: [19:53] I think, at the time, it wasn’t that anything was missing. But, when I looked ahead at the trajectory of my life, I didn’t like where it was leading. One of my favorite quotes from Maya Angelou is when she said, “If the world puts you on a road you do not like, if you look ahead and you don’t like what you see, you don’t like the destination you’re being led to, then you need to step off that road and build a new path.” You might not know where that path is going, but the first step really is to take that leap and say, “Okay. I’m going into the unknown.” If I weigh all of those risks and uncertainties, it’s still worth it. It may not work out. But, in the end, it’s worth doing something that’s very scary and uncertain than to know that I will be stuck on a path that seems pretty clear in terms of what those limitations will be. Joseph: What was it about where that road was leading you that made you feel like you were traveling in the wrong direction? Bommy: [21:04] In France, especially in the working world, there is still an expectation that you are able to do a certain job because you went to the right schools, and you had the right credentials to be able to do it. My role at Cellnovo was taking me more into an area that I felt I didn’t have that knowledge or the credentials for into the business side, rather than the communications and the digital side. It was a public company, we were dealing with investors, we were having to put out quarterly reports. I wasn’t feeling like I had enough knowledge to be able to translate the meaning of our quarterly reports to the investors, if I were to get a question, for example. There were areas like that where I felt that, “Okay. I’ve done everything I can to learn on the job from the people who are very happy to help me.” But, I’ve come to a point where I need to accelerate. If I continue trying to learn on my own, I’m only going to get so far, and I want to be farther. I don’t want to be limited because of this. That was one of the main driving factors for going back to business school. To a school that is recognized in France, one that has a very good network. To be able to get not only the benefits of everything that comes with going to a recognized reputed school, but also to have a more formal understanding, the structures and the theory behind everything that I was trying to apply my day-to-day job. Joseph: You go to HEC Paris Business School. What then happens as a result of that, or in parallel, to doing your executive MBA as you thought about your next move in your career? Bommy: [23:02] I went into the MBA thinking, “Okay. I’m going to get a degree, get the knowledge I need, and come out on the other end with more career options.” What ended up happening was that, when you’re not happy with one aspect of your life, then often it’s linked to a lot of other things. I didn’t realize how deeply that impacted all of my other life decisions. I suppose a job really can define an identity and once you start digging into the whys and hows of that identity, you realize that it’s closely linked to other life decisions. Professional questioning, that was one part of it. But, I met a lot of people who were going through similar challenges, and we really connected because you end up questioning a lot of different parts of your life and feeling very alone at times. There were some solitary moments for me where I felt that I didn’t know if I could talk to anybody. I didn’t know who might understand around me. Being able to connect with others in that MBA program, my peers, my colleagues, who were in a similar stage of their professional lives, and we’re also going through the emotions of that change. It was very comforting to know that I wasn’t alone. Joseph: It can be a very lonely, solitary journey when you are revisiting your past, and your history, and a lot of stuff. I’ve been there myself. A lot of stuff comes up, and you kind of realize these things you’ve been carrying around for quite a long time, and that can be a lot to handle. Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way in your transitions, how did you then discover the opportunity at Sofinnova, and what prompted you to move there? Bommy: [25:12] It was a result of a connection that I had made through HEC. My advisor for my Capstone project, which is the end of the year business thesis. He was someone who helped me a lot along the way. When I was finishing up my degree, the company, Cellnovo, we weren’t able to raise enough capital to continue operations, and we started shutting things down. It’s a very difficult time. What ended up happening was I graduated, June 13th, a few days before we officially closed the company. I felt a huge emptiness and I didn’t know what to do. My advisor helped in a lot of ways. He helped me to get through that. He was someone who helped me on the content of that paper but also tried to help me find that next step. He introduced me to the former chairman of Sofinnova Partners, and said, “Look. You never know. He’s part of the network. He knows a lot of people.” One of my ex-colleagues found out I had met with him, and later told me, “You know you’ve just met the godfather of biotech investing in France.” He’s a really big guy! And, I thought, “Wow! Really? He didn’t come off as he was.” I just had such a good connection with Henri. We sat down for coffee. That’s all we did, and we just talked. It was such a good conversation. I think this is where you know going back to networking. If you go in just with no expectations, just with the right mindset, then magic can happen. And, that’s exactly what happened. He ended up introducing me to the current chairman. We had a few conversations there. At the beginning, it was just talk of a few consulting gigs and seemed exciting. One thing led to the next. All of a sudden, they were saying, “Well, we might have enough here for a full-time job. What do you think?” That’s how it happened. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk with you about, Bommy, is just some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey that has been filled with some pretty major transitions. You and I first crossed paths when you served on an alumni panel at HEC Paris Business School. After a talk I gave there about career change a couple of weeks ago, one of the things that you said that stuck out to me, and kind of prompted me to want to get you on the show was, when you were discussing transitions and when you mentioned you’re motivated because you’re willing to leave something behind to pursue something greater. What did you mean by that? Bommy: [28:10] This is definitely one of the big lessons that I took away from this experience. You just need to embrace the pain. This is the quote that we talked about from the Japanese American writer, Haruki Murakami, who says, “Pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice,” and it’s true. When you decide to make that leap into the unknown, it’s an opportunity for growth. That growth comes with pain, and the struggle is all part of it. Keeping that in mind, and the fact that it’s not necessarily about the finish line but the journey, puts things into a completely different perspective. That, for me, was one of the things that was the key takeaways. The other thing is that there’s a point where you’re willing to leave everything behind because the opportunity to pursue something bigger is that much more important. Career change is a team sport. Yes, the decision and the courage need to start with you. Yes, you do have to do the hard work. But, there are so many people who help me along the way and in a million ways, whether they know it or not. There was a turning point for me when I realized that if I was going to continue along this path, I would be unhappy. If I was unhappy it would impact the people that I loved the most. So, I had to make the leap because it was the chance to become a person that I want to be for my daughters, for my husband, for my parents, for my brothers, my friends. That risk was worth it because the potential endpoint was that much greater. Joseph: You mentioned there “embrace the pain.” What was most painful for you about making your career moves? Bommy: [30:1] Again, back to the idea that “career change is a team sport.” Maybe “sport” is too light a word because there are a lot of dark moments: doubt, frustration, and confusion, and anger. The point is that the hardest thing is taking that leap. It’s very scary. It’s something that took me a lot of time to decide to actually do. When I did it, I was very glad. The other big lesson for me in this was that it’s only when I recognized that my limitations were self-imposed, that I was able to go beyond them. That change of perspective was key to opening so many more doors to new possibilities. Joseph: The final question for you here is around that idea of introspection. Having pulled off multiple transitions that seem, to me at least, to be pretty difficult to pull off. What have you learned about yourself along the way? Bommy: [31:18] I can’t do everything on my own. I need to ask for help. What is difficult for me is I’m very independent, very self-reliance. Having to ask for help has always felt like a weakness but the incredible thing that happened was when I realized that I couldn’t get through this on my own. When I started reaching out to people, it just started coming from everywhere. My mentors, my coaches, my HEC colleagues, my husband, my family, everyone was there to help me get through this. It was great to see that I had all these people to help me along. Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you? What are your hopes as you look ahead in your career, Bommy? Bommy: [32:10] The way I’ve been thinking about my next steps are in the context of how I would like my life to fall from this point. I’ve been thinking a lot about the past. In the first part of our lives, we receive and take from our parents, our teachers, our communities. We choose a lifestyle and career. We feed ourselves of knowledge and experience. What I’d like to do now is to shift into what I think should be the logical next step, which when we have received so much in life, then we should give using the knowledge and experience that we’ve gained to empower and help others, which you are an expert at, in helping people to do this transition. I would love to go more in that direction. I’m really grateful for this opportunity to share my experience with you. I hope it will help others who might be going through similar struggles. Joseph: Thank you so much, Bommy, for telling me more about your shift from journalism to the world of communications, and then also spending your time in the healthcare sector. How you manage to connect with people during those important transitions in your career, and also the importance of ensuring that your career aligns with the kind of life you want, not only for yourself but also for the people around you. So, best of luck with your current role and all your future endeavors. Bommy: [33:38] Thank you, Joseph. It’s been a pleasure. Joseph: I hope you heard some useful insights from Bommy about re-evaluating your career direction, the trade-offs of staying put versus trying something new and why your professional network can play a key role in your career pivot. [33:51]

Teacher turned marketer Alex Spencer of Prezzybox shares her perspectives on the importance of climbing the right career ladder in episode 78 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. She explains how taking a temporary hit to her salary was worth it to her in the long run because it ultimately gave her the chance to do work she found more meaningful. We also discuss the true measures of your professional success and satisfaction (hint–it’s not just salary!) and the importance of being selective and specific about your next target role. Key Career Insights Being specific about what you’re offering and what you’re looking for is critical when making a career change to have a chance to standing out amongst the sea of traditional candidates out there. Taking a pay cut can feel like a big blow to your career, but if you can weather it for a while and it means being able to move toward doing something that would make you happier, in the long run, you will then be climbing the right ladder to hopefully reach your previous salary again. A nice job title and salary isn’t everything. You have to do work that gives you joy and energy, and no amount of salary can buy you these things. Tweetables to Share You spend more time at work than you do with your family and friends. Life's way too short to be going to a job every day that you don't enjoy. Alex Spencer Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about how money can understandably stop people from making the changes they want in their careers. If you’re thinking about making a career change, but a potential salary drop is standing in your way, try to get crystal clear on what exact, temporary salary decrease you could stomach, both practically and psychologically. What salary decrease wouldn’t have a significant impact on your ability to do the important things you want to do in your life and career? What is that exact figure? Do the math, and write it down. Maybe seeing that number can help you clarify exactly what is and is not possible when considering your next move. About Alex Spencer, PR & Marketing Executive Alex Spencer started her career as an English lecturer teaching 16-18 year olds at a further education college in England, but eventually changed career paths to become a PR and Marketing Executive at the online gift retailer Prezzybox. On the side, she also freelances as a content writer and volunteers for NOW-U, a non-profit organization helping to tackle some of the world’s most pressing environmental and social problems. And she’s also the mum to one. Follow Alex on LinkedIn and Twitter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Alex know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Music Credits Tales of the deep by Lama House Ambient/Electronic song by Mattia Cupelli Giza by Ebb & Flod Against A Paler Sun by Hushed Uplifting corporate and inspiring by Lesfm Music provided by Epidemic Sound Pixabay Youtube Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. INTERVIEW SEGMENT MUSIC CREDITS Tales of the deep by Lama House Ambient/Electronic song by Mattia Cupelli Giza by Ebb & Flod Against A Paler Sun by Hushed Uplifting corporate and inspiring by Lesfm Music provided by Epidemic Sound Pixabay Youtube Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): A nice job title and a high salary isn’t all that you need to make you happy. You need to do something that gives you energy and gives you joy and brings you happiness. You’re not going to get that no matter how high your salary is if you’re not happy in what you’re doing. Joseph: Okay. Good morning, Alex, and welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Alex: [02:35] Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here. Thank you. Joseph: We got a lot to cover today. I want to talk about your time as a teacher and how you made the shift into marketing. But, I would love to start by getting a glimpse into what is keeping you busy right now in your career and your life. Alex: [02:53] At home, I have a husband and daughter who is only 16 months. She’s just started walking, so she takes up an awful lot of time and energy. She is the most wonderful thing but she is always on the go. I’m surprised that I do have the energy to work alongside it. Somehow, I managed to go to work for Prezzybox. We’re one of the leading online gift retailers in the UK. I work as a marketing and PR executive at Prezzybox. They are just a wonderful company to work for. I can’t praise them highly enough. I’m, at the moment, trying to focus on learning as much as I can about marketing, the broad sort of spectrum really of SEO, PR, social content marketing. That’s what I’m focused on at the moment, learning as much as I can. Joseph: For those people who are not super familiar with the geography of the UK, can you give a glimpse into where you’re based and what you’re setup is there? Alex: [03:50] I live in the Midlands. I can’t say where it is but nobody would ever heard of where I live because it’s a very small town in the Midlands. Essentially, I live near to Derby, quite near to Birmingham, and about two hours from London, just to give it some context. It’s quite nice and quiet where we live in the Midlands. And then, I work in Warwickshire, again in the Midlands, in a converted farmhouse. We have office dogs and goats, which is interesting, to say the least. Joseph: Oh, wow! You’ve got quite the scenic setup over there then? Alex: [04:20] It’s certainly nowhere near a city. Not the sort of typical office block that you would imagine. It’s basically a farmhouse, sort of down a country lane. We have a big field outside, and that’s where the office goats and dogs currently reside. Although, we’re not in the office at the moment. We’re going in a little bit. Obviously, with the pandemic, we were remote working. We started to go back in a little bit, but not fully so we are all missing the animals quite a lot. Although, they are being taken care of, just in case anyone was panicking about that. Joseph: I’ve heard of office dogs. I have to say, Alex, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of an office goat. Alex: [05:00] Yeah. Joseph: Check that out, at some point. Alex: [05:04] We like to do things differently. Joseph: You mentioned you’re working in marketing and PR right now. I know you haven’t always worked in that sector. Can we go back in time a little bit and start from the beginning? Can you tell us about your time as a teacher and what you were focused on? The types of students you were teaching at the time, and then we’ll kind of go forward from there. Alex: [05:22] I suppose my first, sort of what people might say, real job after university was a teacher. I was teaching in a further education college in the UK. Sixteen to 18-year-olds who’d just left compulsory education and are going on to study whatever they would like to study: engineering, travel and tourism, more vocational subjects. It was my job to teach them English. It’s a strange one. I wasn’t a teacher in the conventional sense. The students hadn’t quite managed to get the grades that the government likes them to get. The equivalent of a C grade. It was my job to teach them their English again. It was very interesting, because understandably, as a 16-year-old going into education, finally being able to choose what you want to do, and then to be told, “Oh, hang on a second. You’ve got to do your English again.” To many of those 16-year-olds, that’s quite frustrating understandably. Joseph: Had you always wanted to become a teacher? How did you get into the field of teaching? Alex: [06:35] No. My life is just a series of falling into things. Thankfully, now that I’ve fallen into marketing, I’ve kind of realized that this is what I want to do forever, and it’s the best thing that ever happened. But, in terms of teaching, in my interview — I was being interviewed for another position in the college, I mentioned that I might like to look into English teaching in the future. Fast forward, not even 24 hours, I’ve been offered a position as an English teacher. It was something that was on my mind, but not something that I just thought it’s my life ambition. Joseph: You mentioned this is a further education college, and that these are 16- to 18-year-olds who were there learning English but didn’t necessarily want to be there learning English. Can you describe the student profile and the learning environment there? Alex: [07:22] They were absolutely amazing young people. I learned so much from them. Their resilience, their thirst for learning was amazing. It’s just that, again, understandably, they wanted to be there to learn their chosen vocation. They wanted to be there to learn engineering or their desired electrical apprenticeships, employment apprenticeships, and all sorts of different vocational subjects that they were super interested in and they loved their subjects. But again, a requirement of doing those subjects was that they had to also, if they hadn’t got their C grade in English or Maths actually, they had to do English and Maths again. They would go to their classes, as usual, as normal. Go to their engineering classes, or travel and tourism classes, and then they would have a couple of hours with me per week. I don’t think it’s a couple of hours that they necessarily look forward to, but I did try my best to sort of make it as engaging as possible or as much as you possibly can do. Obviously, you have to follow the curriculum and you have to teach them to pass the exam, ultimately. There’s only so much you can do and so much flexibility there. I did try as much as I can because I feel like with my personality, I tried to sort of form a bond with them as much as I possibly could. I did sort of completely sympathize with that position. I explain to them that I understand how frustrating that it must be to be told, “Okay. Go in that room now after two hours and do something you don’t want to do.” Especially, at that age, when you’re a teenager and you’re going into adulthood, it’s like you want that freedom and that autonomy. It felt like I was kind of taking that away from them, so I almost felt guilty about doing it. But, I was trying to help them in their future careers at the same time. Joseph: At what point did it occur to you that teaching may not be what you wanted to do the rest of your life? Alex: [09:11] To be honest, it was quite soon into me working as a teacher, which sounds crazy. Because many people say, “Well, why didn’t you just leave?” And, I understand that. But, I think the idea of being labeled as what is often seen as a negative thing, a job hopper or career hopper, I think that was what I was afraid of because I only just started it and thought, “Well actually, I’m quite good at it.” I’ve got loads of support from my colleagues. I thought, “I’ve got to make this work.” It’s a respected profession. I know I’d have job security. It was really difficult to know when the right time was. I think, in hindsight, probably should have done it, left sooner rather than later. I was so obsessed with not being labeled a “career hopper,” which I now realize is silly because you spend more time at work than you do with your family in your life, and you have to be happy with your job. Quite soon but it did take me a couple of years to make the leap. Joseph: What was it like for you during those couple of years when you knew you weren’t in the right location but you couldn’t quite bring yourself to move on to something else? Alex: [10:20] It’s really hard. Anyone who’s in the same position will know how hard it is because it’s a constant battle of wills of what is the right thing to do. Do you stay? Especially, if you’ve got what is seen by society as a respected career, and a safe career, and a secure career. Do you stay? Again, with the salary, decent salary. It wasn’t just the job title that I would be giving up, it was the salary as well. It was just a constant battle of, “What do I do? Do I try and stick it out? Is it going to get easier for me?” I knew it wasn’t right. It didn’t feel right. Even though I feel I worked so hard to be a good teacher. It just never felt right. I knew pretty much, straight away, that it wasn’t what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Other sort of factors, I guess pressure. The pressure that I thought I might face from other people sort of stopped me from doing that, until I started to do freelance copywriting work on the side, and that’s when everything changed. Joseph: Yeah, let’s shift gears. Let’s talk a little bit about that. You started doing copywriting on the side. How did you get into that and how did you find your clients? Alex: [11:32] The link between English teaching and marketing is quite strong because what you’re doing is creating content all the time for your students. You have to show them not only how to write fiction, but how to write nonfiction. We did a lot of creative marketing. Sort of leaflets and bits and bobs like that, and adverts. I loved that! I thought, “Hang on a second, I love doing this!” As much as I love the students as well, I thought, “This creating content and writing, surely, there’s got to be something in this. Maybe this is something that I need to focus on.” So, I started to freelance as a copywriter thinking, “Well, if nobody hires me, that’s fine. It’s not a full-time job.” I went on Upwork and started speaking to a lovely lady who I thought, “Oh, my gosh! She’s willing to pay me to write. This is crazy!” I did some content for her blog. That’s how it started. I got a couple more clients and thought people are paying me to do this. Maybe it’s something that I can do full-time because that was the job that was giving me energy rather than taking it from me. I think if you’re coming home from work every day, feeling burnt out and feeling lethargic, and so tired, it’s a sign that things are not quite right. Joseph: You mentioned Upwork. I’d like to talk about that for just a second for people who are not familiar with Upwork. Upwork is one of the many online freelancer marketplace platforms out there. There are, I guess, wow, tens of thousands of freelancers on these sites. How did you get started on Upwork? How did you build up your profile? Did you just literally put up a headshot, and then put up a quick description of yourself? Could you just give a glimpse into how you got started on that sort of a platform? Alex: [13:15] It is daunting. Certainly because when you go on it, you realize how many thousands of freelancers you’re kind of competing with. I’d never been paid to write before. What I did was, I built up quite a sort of portfolio by creating content for my students. I kind of used that basically as a portfolio and put some work up. I think finding your niche is a really good way of going about it. I was interested in healthy eating and healthy living, and so that’s the angle that I went down. I searched for jobs that would involve creating content around that topic because it was something that I was genuinely interested in. That’s how I found my first client. I think the fact that in my proposal to her I explained that enthusiasm. She said that that’s why I stood out because I didn’t just say, “Oh, well. I really like writing. Can I write for you?” I said, “I really like writing. Can I write for you? I really like the subject that your blog is about, and I think I can add a lot of value to it.” Joseph: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess the temptation when you’re just getting started on these platforms, Alex, is to try to be everything to everyone. But, actually, by being more specific, it’s easier for people to understand what to do with you, and it’s easier to stand out. I guess as somebody myself who’s hired people on Upwork, I’m definitely looking for specialists who focus on a particular area. That’s a good point about that. I also want to talk a little bit about how you went from this freelance work into the work you’re doing right now. I know you kind of walked me through this process but can you just tell me how you uncovered this opportunity to work more full-time in marketing? Alex: [14:55] After a sort of maybe a couple of months of freelancing, it wasn’t very long at all. I started to look into full-time jobs, thinking “Okay. Well, I might have to take a pay cut, but I love doing it.” Like I said before, it’s something that gives me energy and makes me happy and makes me smile, rather than taking my energy from me. I thought there’s got to be something. Someone’s got to give me a shot, even though I’ve got no experience. Yes, I might be starting at the bottom of the ladder again. But, for me, it was completely worth it. So, I started to look into jobs, and I saw this position as a copywriter at Prezzybox. Joseph: Where did you find the ad? Was it just on their website? Alex: [15:33] It was on Indeed. Joseph: So job recruitment platform. Alex: [15:37] Yeah. I’ve not looked at many, but indeed was just one of the first ones that I looked at and looked for. A lot of copywriter positions were in London. And, because I live 2 1/2 hours away from London, that is just not something that I could do. There’s no way I could commute to London, even though that’s where all the jobs were and there was no way of me moving there. I was a bit hesitant about changing careers because I thought, “Well, there can’t be that many marketing positions in the Midlands.” But, little did I know, there’s plenty. I saw this copywriter position, and instead of just sending over a CV, which is what it asked for, I wrote. Prezzybox is an online gift retailer so we sell lots of awesome gifts. I went on the site and I did some product descriptions for some of the products that were on the site, sent them over to the managing director. He gave me an interview because I was the only one that had done that. I’ve gone above and beyond, and it’s not something that everyone has time for. But, if you can go above and beyond, obviously, of course, that’s going to make you stand out. That’s how I got the interview. Joseph: That’s really interesting because I think it can be very daunting to try to approach a job application process as somebody who doesn’t necessarily come from that more traditional linear background. And then, you’re going into the interview itself, trying to sell yourself as somebody who can take on this role. Can you tell us a little bit about the interview and how that went for you? Alex: [17:03] It’s very daunting, isn’t it? Very daunting, unless you’ve got lots of years of experience. Like you’re going into a room and saying, “Hi there. I haven’t done this before but I promise I could do it.” It’s a very bizarre situation. Especially for graduates, that’s just normal because I’d been out of uni for a few years. It was a difficult thing to do, to be honest, to start again. But, the interview was amazing, and Prezzybox is a very informal, sort of family-friendly environment. It wasn’t what I was expecting at all. I arrived dressed very formally with my portfolio in hand, my degree certificate, and all my qualifications. Thinking, “Okay. Well, I don’t know what this is going to be, but I’ll be prepared.” It was just more like a chat. The managing director was just amazing! He was so funny. He made me feel so at ease. It was the most fun I’ve ever had in an interview. I got my degree certificate and said, “Oh, you know, don’t you see it?” He just wasn’t interested, not in a negative way. It’s just that he valued enthusiasm more than pieces of paper. In fact, our Chief Operations Officer at the moment, he didn’t have any qualifications in marketing. He sort of started at the bottom at Prezzybox and worked his way right to the top. There, at Prezzybox, is more about you as a person and what you can bring to the company. They’re not so bothered about your qualifications. Joseph: What happened after the interview? Alex: [18:33] They were really interested in taking me on, but that was for a temporary position. I forgot to mention that. That would have been a temporary role for three months. I was having to make this really big decision. “Okay. Do I leave this secure permanent job that I’m quite good at?” And, I think I would have had job security there. Do I leave that and do I leave this respected profession to do something that my family didn’t even know? My family didn’t understand what copywriting was, which is fair. Because I don’t think I understood when I was at university or when I was younger what copyrighting in marketing was either. But, do I leave that secure job to do a temporary role and take a big pay cut as well? About £10,000 less at this job. It was a difficult one. Me and my husband had lots of long chats about it. Thinking, “Can we make this work? Is it the right decision? Is it sensible?” To be honest, it wasn’t sensible, but we made it work and I did it anyway. The rest is history. And now, I’m still there. Joseph: I can see. You’re talking about some pretty major tradeoffs to consider there, which is permanent to temporary, you mentioned a major pay cut. What ultimately tipped the scales for you to decide that, “Yeah, I want to do this.” Alex: [19:51] It’s a really tricky one because not everybody is in the position to take massive pay cut. It’s not something that everyone can do. But, if you are in a position to take a pay cut for something that you genuinely enjoy, it’s the best thing that I’ve ever done. Of course, you have to adapt in terms of your lifestyle if you’re taking a big pay cut. But, if you are happy when you get home from work and if you are doing a job that brings you joy, the two don’t compare. And also, you are going to progress, salary-wise, and in terms of your position much quicker in a career that you enjoy than a career that you’re just forcing to make work. That’s what I was doing with teaching. I was forcing it to work. Whereas, with this job, I just want to learn everything and I want to progress and I want to do this for the rest of my life. I’ve now worked my way up, back up to my previous salary. I think you could do that much easier if you are doing something that you really enjoy. Joseph: I know that a lot of people, Alex, when they’re thinking about making a move a few years after already investing some time into one career, are very fearful of this idea. I think you prefer to of starting again or starting over. Can you just explain what that like was for you to start again in a career? Knowing that this is the career that you wanted to do but I’m just curious what that experience was like for you to “start over again.” Alex: [21:15] It is very difficult because the question you asked about starting again, it was different for me because I haven’t been teaching for a couple of years. But, I imagine it’s even harder if you’ve got an established career and you’ve been there for however many years, it is never, ever too late to change. It is never too late to do something that you want to do. It’s never too late to try something new. I find it difficult because when this age of social media where everybody shares everything, it was quite tough sort of seeing my peers move up the ladder quicker than I was because, of course, I’d started again. That was quite tough. But, at the end of the day, it all comes back to I was going home happy. I was going home, not burnt out. I was going home thinking, “Okay. I didn’t have the Sunday night dread anymore,” which is what a lot of people experience. I enjoyed being at work. I enjoyed spending time with colleagues. It’s just a completely different experience. I’ve said this before, and I say it so much because it’s so true, you do spend more time at work than you do, in many instances, with your family and your friends. Life is way too short to be going to a job every day that you don’t enjoy, or that burns you out, or that makes you stressed. It’s just not worth it. This is a strange quote to pull out, but I was watching the UK version of “The Office” recently. Tim was speaking about his career change and he said, “It’s better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb than halfway up one that you don’t.” And, I feel like that’s a perfect sort of analysis of what any career change, really. It’s better to be at the bottom of the ladder that you want to move up, of course, it is. Joseph: That’s a good segue, Alex, into the last topic I was hoping to cover with you before we wrap up with what you’re focused on right now at Prezzybox. But, just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way and just your experience of relaunching your career. You had mentioned something about a topic that I think relates to what you just mentioned, which is that your job doesn’t feel like work anymore to you. What does it feel like to you? Alex: [23:24] That’s an amazing question. It definitely doesn’t. I mean Prezzybox is wonderful. We have a fantastic work-life balance. We have very achievable targets. We’re all working as a team. If we have a struggle, we can just ask our manager and we’ll have that support straight away. I’m not just saying that, it is genuinely true. If I want to do a bit outside of work, then I will. I don’t have to, but if I want to, then I will because it does make me happy. Like this morning, I was writing a blog about our Prezzybox staff’s favorite, funny films, and it’s just things like that. It just doesn’t feel like work. It just feels like I’m back at teaching and creating content again but that was the bit of that job that I enjoyed. It has changed my life completely. My husband was experiencing a similar thing in his job. And, because of my career change, he did something similar within his work. And so, his work-life balance is completely changed. It has a knock-on effect with your home life, definitely. We’re both just so much happier now. So much less stressed. I can’t stress enough how important it is to change. If you need to change, and if you’re in a position to change your career, whether that’s because you’re stressed or burnt out or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter the reason. But, if you’re in a position to do so, you have to do it. You just have to do it because it can change your life completely, and it can change your home life as well. Joseph: What was something that you were stuck on when you were pondering the career change that you felt you ultimately had to overcome to move forward? Alex: [25:03] One of the biggest things that was stopping me was because I am terrible at comparing myself with other people. Again, I think because social media bombards you with people — which is wonderful. People being so successful, and maybe up the ladder, and all this success which is fantastic. But, it can make you feel inferior and it can make you feel a bit vulnerable in terms of your position. I certainly had to ignore the fact that I would be behind if I compared myself to some of my peers of the same age. And then, once I did that and I thought, “Well, you have 40 years or more of working. I’ve got plenty of time to move up because I am ambitious and I do want to progress.” But, what’s the point of doing that in something that you’re not happy with, and in a career that you’re not happy with? Once I’ve sort of silenced the little voices in my head that were saying, “Oh, you can’t do that because then you’ll be behind.” What does that mean? Everyone’s on a different journey, and everyone takes different paths. You should never compare yourself to other people because that, ultimately, will hold you back. Joseph: I catch myself doing that and have done that throughout my career. Especially, during times when I’m thinking about changing careers is to just go on LinkedIn, and just scroll through, and you see who’s getting promoted, and which new job they’ve landed at, which amazing company. For those people out there, and I’m one of those people, who are stuck on this very common barrier of comparing yourself to others and wanting to keep up with their peers, any advice that you have for people on how to let that go and how to silence that comparison voice inside your head? Alex: [26:50] From a practical perspective, I think taking a break from social media is the first thing to do if you’re considering a career change. Because if you’re on LinkedIn every day like you say, it’s fantastic and it’s lovely to celebrate people’s success. But again, it can make you feel insecure. I think if you’re considering that change, come off of LinkedIn for a while, don’t go on it. Try to stay away from social media in general. Obviously, unless your job depends on it, try to stay away from it. To sort of clear your head and say, “Well, it doesn’t matter what they’re doing. It only matters what I’m doing.” And also, I have known in the past some people who have fantastic job titles and great salaries, but ultimately are not happy with their job and what they’re doing. And so, that high salary and job title doesn’t make up for that. It’s not a good trade-off. I think most of us would much rather be, stable financially, of course. You have to be able to afford what you need to afford. But, you’d much rather have a lower salary, a better work-life balance, and be happier at work when you spend eight hours plus there a day, than having a fancy job title just so that others look at you and say, “Oh, that’s a fancy job title.” You can’t compare the two. I think practically coming off of LinkedIn and coming off of anything that makes you compare yourself to other people is my first piece of advice. Secondly, remember that a nice job title and a high salary aren’t all that you need to make you happy. You need to do something that, like I said before, gives you energy and gives you joy and brings you happiness. You’re not going to get that no matter how high your salary is if you’re not happy in what you’re doing. Joseph: Alright. Well, that is great advice. I would love to wrap up, Alex, with what you’re doing right now and would just enjoy hearing a little bit more about what you’re up to, both in your role at Prezzybox, and also, can you just give us a sampling of the types of things that you guys sell over there? I’ve been on your website myself, and there’s a very interesting array of products you have on there. Alex: [28:49] Absolutely. At the moment, as you might expect, because we’re a gift company, we are gearing up to the busiest time of year. It’s already getting busy in terms of Christmas gifts. We do about 50% of our sales during Christmas. Sort of on the run-up to Christmas. Things are super busy right now. We’ve just come back from an event in London, from a press event, where we’ve met with lots of journalists and wonderful influencers. We are just gearing up with our Christmas strategy. We’re trying to gear up for this really, really busy time of year right now. In terms of what I’m doing specifically, we’re looking at PR campaigns that we can push out for Christmas. And also, we’re doing a lot of copywriting because we’re adding a lot of Christmas products to the site. But, like you say, we do have some pretty awesome stuff. We do like putting names and faces on things. We have like a personalized Toblerone. We have a personalized jar of Marmite. For anyone outside of the UK, it’s a very divisive food, Marmite is. I would urge you to try it. If you can’t, you either love it or you hate it. That’s what we’re doing at the moment. Things are getting very busy. Joseph: Alright. Very cool. I would encourage people to check out some of the products you have. I browsed around on your joke and novelty gifts. That probably took more time than I would have thought. I was just browsing through that page. You got a lot of really interesting products on there. I definitely recommend people check out Prezzybox. Alex: [30:18] Thank you. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for telling me about your life as a teacher and your shift into the freelance, and then the full-time marketing world. And also, just the importance of doing work that brings you joy, energy, and happiness. Best of luck with your marketing and PR role there at Prezzybox. I hope the upcoming holiday season goes well for you guys. Alex: [30:39] Me, too. Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s wonderful to speak to you. Thank you. Joseph: As I hope you heard some useful insights from Alex about being specific about what you’re looking to do next, the importance of climbing the right ladder, and the fact that job titles and salary aren’t everything. [30:52]

As if making a good impression at work and figuring out where you want your career to head wasn’t wasn’t hard enough, managing a medical condition on top of all is even more challenging. In this episode of the Career Relaunch™ podcast, Erika Russi, a former tax consultant turned data scientist shares her story of interrupting her own career to address her medical condition. We discuss how your health can affect your career choices. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also describe my own tendencies to overwork and why hustling all the time isn’t necessarily the healthiest habit in the long run. If you’re someone who’s been working nonstop lately or if you’ve had to deal with emotional or physical challenges yourself, Erika’s story is a good reminder to us all about ensuring we’re always mindful of our health and wellbeing no matter how busy work gets. or if you’ve had to interrupt your career to take care of a health concerns I first heard about Erika’s career change story in this Muse article, where she discussed how she managed to make this big career change from accountancy to data science through a combination of upskilling, coaching, networking, and finding her inner confidence to overcome imposter syndrome. So we’ll also discuss why having a nontraditional background can be an asset rather than liability, even when entering a field where most people have more linear careers. Key Career Insights If you’re someone going into a new role from a nontraditional background, your best strategy for demonstrating your value may be to lean in rather than explain away your past experiences. Attempting to compete with traditional candidates on more traditional metrics will just be an uphill battle. Your health should always come before your work. You only have one body and one life on this earth, and if you don’t take care of yourself, your body may force you to do so when you least expect it. Believing in yourself is half the battle when trying to execute a major career transition. Comparing yourself to others is certainly natural, but not necessarily great for your own psychology. Tweetables to Share Prioritize your health. You only have one body. You only have one life. Erika Russi Tweet This Pushing yourself to continue working under exhausting circumstances isn't healthy. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure you get the rest it needs. Erika Russi Tweet This Erika’s message to you Given the nature of what we discussed about how much your health can affect your work and life, Erika wants to encourage people to get vaccinated against Covid-19. As she mentioned during the interview, the long term effects of having Covid (“long Covid”) are very similar to her auto-immune disease, fibromyalgia. Even if you survive Covid, there are long lasting effects after having a strong virus like Covid-19. She also wants to highlight that immunocompromised individuals rely on others being vaccinated. So she hopes her story brings greater awareness about the 7% of the population with an autoimmune disease that may be quietly struggling. Although I’m aware we have listeners everywhere, you can refer to your local health authorities’ websites to find out how you can get your vaccine if you haven’t done so already. It’s something we all must do in order to protect ourselves and others. Here are a few helpful sites for our top five countries by listenership: 🇺🇸US- NBC’s Plan Your Vaccine site 🇬🇧UK- NHS’s Book Your Vaccine site 🇦🇺Australia- AGDH’s Vaccine Clinic finder 🇨🇦Canada- Government’s Covid-19 appointment finder 🇸🇬Singapore- MOH’s Covid-19 Covid-19 vaccine registration site Listener Challenge My challenge to you this week is simple, but not easy. I know this because I struggle with it myself. In spite of how busy you are or how busy you think you are, to try and find a way to just go to bed a little bit earlier tonight. Then, stick with that schedule this week. See how you feel. See what impact it has on your work. At the very least, do this to ensure toxins aren’t building up in your brain! About Erika Russi Erika Russi is currently a Data Scientist at IBM after completing a 4-month data science bootcamp at the Flatiron School. Previously, she worked as a tax associate for PriceWaterhouseCoopers with responsibilities that included mergers and acquisitions transaction cost analysis, and as a fund accountant for Credit Suisse where amongst other things she developed accounting enhancements for IT teams. Her family’s originally from Colombia, and these days, in her spare time, she loves going on walks with her recently adopted senior dog, Marmee. You can follow Erika on Twitter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Erika know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Interview Segment Music Credits Hushed by Sibyl Myth by Alan Ellis Canon in Db by Cora Zea Lupina’s Dream by Lama House Paramount Crowning by Rand Aldo Music provided by Epidemic Sound Thanks to Audible for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. INTERVIEW SEGMENT MUSIC CREDITS Hushed by Sibyl. Myth by Alan Ellis Canon in Db by Cora Zea Lupina’s Dream by Lama House Paramount Crowning by Rand Aldo Music provided by Epidemic Sound Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): If you’re not already burnt out, you will be burnt out. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure that you get the rest that it needs. We only have one body. We only have one life, prioritize that before work. Joseph: You can get all the show notes from today’s episode at careerrelaunch.net/77. Erika spoke with me from Brooklyn, New York. Good morning, Erika. Welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Erika: [02:55] Thanks for having me. Joseph: I was hoping we could just start off by having you give me a snapshot of what has been occupying you recently, both in your personal and professional life. Erika: [03:07] I’ll start off with my professional life. I’m a data scientist at IBM. I work with trying to get more data awareness, make more data-driven decisions for an internal team. I’m also working on natural language processing. I’m working on a chatbot for internal teams at IBM. Joseph: What exactly does a data scientist do? Erika: [03:33] That’s a great question because not a lot of people have a definitive answer. It’s one of those very hype terms right now, so I think it means something different to different people. In a general sense, it usually means someone that codes in Python OR, and they do some machine learning. They also could be doing some dashboards, be putting dashboards together, be involved in data pipelines. We talk a lot about big data, and that just means someone that’s able to get a handle on these giant streams of data to really understand what’s going on, to be able to detect patterns to help people make decisions. Joseph: Very interesting. Well, I do want to get into how you ended up getting into this path. But, I think I would be very interested in also just hearing what’s been occupying you, just on the personal side of things outside of work. Erika: [03:07] It’s a little tough to share just because I’m such a private person but I do think it is my responsibility to share. I have an autoimmune disease called “fibromyalgia.” It means I tend to have a lot of widespread pain all around my body. It mostly focuses on my upper body. You’ll also hear maybe people have brain fog. It just it makes me a little tired, makes it harder for me to understand things, or to just really focus on things. It’s really similar to long COVID. When I spoke to my rheumatologist, he pretty much said that fibromyalgia is long COVID. It is very similar to what hundreds of thousands of people are currently experiencing with COVID, and it happened in a similar way for me that I had a virus and my body overreacted with an immune response. This past year was really tough for me. The summer was really rough because heat is one of my triggers. I just had a really awful summer, pain-wise, and lack of focus. That’s really what I’ve been dealing with this summer. I’m happy to share all this, especially because I’m sure so many people are going through it and it may not be obvious when someone’s going through it. I want to share that to spread awareness. Joseph: Thank you very much for sharing that, Erika. I know that we actually tried to record this earlier, but I know you had a surgery recently. Is that right? Erika: [06:13] Yeah. Joseph: What did that involve? Was that related to the fibromyalgia? Erika: [06:14] It’s hard to tell if it was related. Part of fibromyalgia is also the inability to sleep, have restful sleep. I was having a hard time getting restful sleep as well. I think part of it was related to my nose, for lack of a better word. I did get a septoplasty and a turbinate reduction. That means my deviated septum was corrected and turbinates, which are the filters at the back of the nose, they were reduced. The idea is that this will help me breathe better and it will help me sleep better. It’s tough with an autoimmune disease because there’s so many moving parts. You don’t really know if it’s a mechanical issue or if it’s your body, your predisposition to something. Hopefully, this will just help me, on a more general level, get better rest and reduce the amount of issues associated with fibro. Joseph: Hopefully, the surgery helps and I hope that helps you get back on your feet. I know that in our exchanges over our email, I know you have had a tough few months here. Again, I appreciate your willingness to come on to the show, and also just your willingness to share a little bit about your personal story. Before we dive into your full career story, I do want to talk about how this has affected you in your career. Can you also just give a little glimpse about your family and where you grew up? Because when we spoke before, I understand your parents are Colombian, and they moved to the United States when you were pretty young. Is that right? Erika: [07:50] Yeah. I was born in Colombia, and we came to the states when I was 6, in 1992. It was a violent time in Colombia, and my dad had lost his job. We were definitely looking for a place with more opportunity. As cliché as that sounds, it really was the best decision for us. Joseph: Let’s kind of take this one piece at a time here. I’d like to go back in time a little bit more before you were working as a data scientist of user behavior at IBM. I know you have always done that. Way back in the day, you were actually working in tax and tax consulting. Could you just take me back to the time that you were working at PricewaterhouseCoopers? And then, we can move forward from there. Erika: [08:35] I was an accounting undergrad, and I did my master’s in tax. And then, I got a position at PwC in tax consulting. It was a pretty stressful job as PwC, one of the big four accounting firms. You go in and you’re hired because you’re young, and you can work long hours, and that was definitely part of the job. It was also really stressful. It ultimately wasn’t the industry for me, but I’m still very grateful for the time that I have there. I did learn so much about project management, very basic, soft skills, like writing emails and just dealing with teams. That was really invaluable at that time I had at PwC. Joseph: What triggered you to move on from doing that kind of work? Erika: [09:26] I was so desperate to get out when I was at PwC. At that point, I had been diagnosed with the fibromyalgia. I was in my mid-20s, and I had gone on medical leave for two years. When I had returned, I returned to the same role. It was just really hard to manage that kind of job with what was going on with me, personally, with my health situation. And also, ultimately, I was really unhappy in that role. I was looking for a job in accounting. It didn’t really matter if it was in tax or otherwise. I got a job at Credit Suisse as an accountant, non-tax accountant. That’s how I transitioned there. Joseph: Now, you mentioned the medical leave. This was the time when you heard the diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Is that right? Erika: [10:21] Yep. It was 2013. Joseph: I see. Can you just take me back to the moment when you heard that news? What ran through your head after you heard that? Erika: [10:29] To a certain extent, relief, because they definitely felt like it was a little crazy. I was so young to be so sick and bedridden, really, at that point. Like I said, I was working really long hours. It was really stressful. And then, on the weekends, I would just sleep the entire time and I couldn’t really figure out what was wrong with me. I was in a lot of pain. Work was really, really hard for me. I assumed it was related to work. I assumed I was really burned out. But, I went to the doctor just to make sure that maybe it was something else, maybe I had Lyme disease. There were so many different things that could be. We ran through a bunch of tests. Pretty much just trying to exclude everything else like celiac disease, or diabetes, or arthritis. When I got that diagnosis, it was a relief in the sense that I knew it wasn’t in my head. There were a few things I could do. It’s not a curable thing, but at least now I had something that I could google, or I could figure out what the next steps were. Joseph: I’m just trying to imagine because you were on medical leave for a couple years. Is that right? Erika: [11:47] Yeah. For two years. Joseph: For two years. During those two years, you go from working in quite, I’m going to imagine, quite an intense nonstop role at PwC. You’re working professional, white-collar, going to the office every day. And then, you’re on medical leave for two years. What was that like? How did your perspectives evolve during this time about life and also work? Erika: [12:13] Yeah. On the one hand, it was something I needed just to take a step back because I didn’t know what was going on with my body. I knew I had fibromyalgia, but at the same time, I felt like I had no control of what was going on. I couldn’t really manage it. Like I said, work was always really tough. Even, there was a point where I tried to cut down my hours, but it still felt like the pressure to work longer hours that even if I was signed up for six, I would still work eight hours. I had simultaneous carpal tunnel syndrome at this time, too. I was wearing these ergonomic gloves, and I had golfer’s elbow, too. I would wear straps on my elbows. It felt so much more extreme for such a, potentially, simple disease. It felt really straightforward that I had fibromyalgia, but it just felt like the symptoms kept getting worse. Of course, they did. I was not taking rest. I was really stressed out. I wasn’t really addressing the issues. Medically, they gave me the time to address everything I needed to address. The issues with my elbow, my diet, the lack of stress. It just gave me the time to really figure out what I needed. Physical therapy, too. I would go to physical therapy a lot. It really was the moment to try to figure out a strategy for what I was going to do when I needed to inevitably return to work. Joseph: The other thing that I’m wondering about here is because I know there was a period of time before you went out on medical leave. Sounds like you got a little bit of space to reflect and recover from what was going on. Erika: [14:04] Yeah. Absolutely. Joseph: But before you went on medical leave, you were also experiencing a lot of these things in the workplace. What was that like? Did people notice? Erika: [14:13] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It was really tough. Especially, in that environment, you’re expected to be at 100% at all times. “If you’re not at 100%, then you shouldn’t be there,” was I think the unspoken rule. There were some people, my colleagues that were really honest with me. In hindsight, I do appreciate it. They said that, “You’ve got diagnosed with this. That sucks. But, it’s just going to get worse as you get older. If you’re going to make it, you really need to push through now because you’re young. You have the ability to do that now. You won’t have the ability to do that later. You got to put your head down and just go through it.” Which at the time was really hard to hear. Especially if it felt like I had no mentorship to help me through that. I had no guidance. It was tough. I think people expected kind of the push-through mentality, and that ultimately wasn’t something I could do. I did have to go on medical leave. Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Because I know that you went on medical leave. It sounds like that’s what you very much needed at that moment in your life. What happened next for you? I know you mentioned you went over to Credit Suisse. What was the experience of going back into a role in accountancy, post-medical leave, and post-finding out that you have this autoimmune disease? Erika: [15:43] After medical leave, I did return to my role at PwC for another two years. I was able to better manage, I’d say, at that point, what was going on. But like I said, that role was not for me and I was really desperate to get out. I think the first job offer I got, I left and I went to Credit Suisse, which was a lot less stressful in experience. It was a more straightforward accounting role. I wasn’t doing tax consulting or dealing with clients or consulting projects. It was just a fund accounting. We were looking at funds managed by Credit Suisse, and we would do the accounting for that. Joseph: I’m just trying to imagine, Erika, what it must have been like to get this diagnosis, to have to take a significant chunk of time off from work to basically take care of yourself and to recover, your rollback into the office, and you’re back at your laptop, and you’re back doing accountancy work. Was that surreal at all for you to go from the medical leave back into your day job, and being back in the office, and back into the routine? What was that like for you? Did that feel weird at all in any way to you? Erika: [17:02] Yeah. I know what you mean. I think the surrealism of it was kind of overshadowed by the need for a routine and the need to feel like I was contributing something. The good thing about my fibromyalgia, and especially having it so young, is it made me so appreciative of so many things like basic health care, the importance of rest and sleeping, and good diet. It kept things in perspective for me. I knew I wasn’t having a life-or-death job, like people in the medical industry for example. If anyone ever stressed out, or if anyone ever yelled or maybe crossed the line over something really done at work, it always felt really unnecessary. Joseph: Yeah. Erika: [17:59] That was always really helpful to know that at the end of the day, none of this really matters. This is all just numbers. No one’s going to die. We’re not performing life-saving surgery, so it was great. But I think I needed work again, especially after my medical leave just to feel like I was doing something, I was contributing to a larger need or a larger project. That was really lacking when I was on medical leave. Just constantly focused on what was wrong with me instead of distracting myself with work, which was so important as well. Joseph: Yeah. I mean, just going back to the keeping things in perspective. It just made me think of one of my first corporate jobs where I was working at The Clorox Company, and I was working on the Glad business. I was working on the marketing team. My job was basically to drive demand for Glad trash bags in the market. I remember one of my first managers, her name was Linda Lori. When I first started there she said, “Just remember, there are no trash bag emergencies here. Nothing really bad is going to happen to you or anybody else in the world. So, go home at a decent time and don’t work yourself to death here. Yes, it’s competitive environment, but there are no trash bag emergencies.” I think that’s sort of what you’re getting at here. Erika: [19:15] That’s right. Joseph: You’ve moved on to Credit Suisse now, and it’s providing you with some routine. Around 2018, I understand you went through another transition. Can you just describe what happened to you in 2018? Erika: [19:27] Yeah, I laugh about it now because it’s funny, in hindsight. This was right after my birthday. Had gone away for the weekend, and something that the team at Credit Suisse did is whenever it was someone’s birthday, they would either surprised them with a cake, or buy them cupcakes, or donuts. And then, sometimes, have a little “Happy Birthday” singing. I remember going in to work that morning and getting a call from my boss to come over to a room in a separate building. I just weirdly assumed, “Oh! It’s a birthday thing.” It’s a little early for a birthday thing, but yeah. It’s a birthday thing. I start walking over. And then, I’m like, “No. It’s too early for a birthday thing.” But, I had talked to him about potentially getting promoted this year. Maybe that’s what it’s about. I walk over, and then I go in and I see it’s my boss and some other woman. I’m like, “No. I’m about to get laid off.” Joseph: You knew when you walked in? Erika: [20:31] Yeah. I knew right when I walked in. I saw how nervous my boss was. I got laid off. It was very surreal at the moment. I thought they were kidding at first because I had just thought, “Oh! You’re going to celebrate my birthday.” I didn’t think that was going to happen and it happened, and never expected it. Joseph: That’s around September 2018. Erika: [20:56] Yep. Joseph: What did you do next? You find out this news, go home that day. Like, what’s running through your head, and what did you do next? Erika: [21:03] Yeah. The emotions came quickly. At first, I thought I was the only one getting laid off. I thought it was more of like a firing situation. Maybe I did something wrong because I had to leave the building right away. But, I found out it was a bunch of us getting laid off. The first week, I went through it, let myself experience these emotions. I really was expecting my boss, at the time who I was really close with, I was expecting him to reach out and say something like, “It was great working with you,” or “I’m sorry that’s happened.” He never did, actually. But, I dealt with that first. And then, after that, luckily, I have a very supportive husband who just said, “Do what you got to do. Either look for another job, take the time you need.” Ultimately, what I decided, my plan the whole time, was to continue taking Python courses. I had started taking a Python course online on Coursera. Joseph: It’s a programming language. Erika: [22:00] Yeah. Programming language, yeah. I really loved it. And so, I wanted to continue doing that. I said, “Okay. Well, I got a little severance. Maybe I can do this full time with a lot more accountability,” I need to complete classes, and I’m paying for classes so it would be good to just take a boot camp style. That was in September, and by October, I was starting a data science boot camp with a focus, not only on Python, but on overall data science. That’s how I started a boot camp. Joseph: Okay. This was at the Flatiron School. Is that right? Okay. At this point, are you thinking about trying to land a job that requires Python programming skills? Erika: [22:43] The amount of time was so short. I didn’t even know what I was expecting. I just knew that I wanted to do some Python programming, and I was just going to do this boot camp. Maybe I’d go back into accounting and just have a new set of skills under my belt, and that would be that. I would just continue in accounting. I did not think that I was actually going to become a data scientist. I figured I would just learn data science but probably wasn’t for me. Because to be a data scientist, you need to be a genius. You need to know so much math. Joseph: Right. Erika: [23:18] It didn’t cross my mind until the very end of the program that, “Oh! I’m actually going to be the data scientist now.” Joseph: When we spoke before, you mentioned to me just how you found your job. Could you just take me through how in the world do you go from being an accountant, then going on medical leave, coming back, going to another account. I’m imagining that you’re quite seemingly potentially siloed in this accountancy world. How do you then make the transition from that, into finding a job as a data scientist? Erika: [23:45] It really felt unreal. But, looking back on it, it does make sense. How I found the IBM role is one of my classmates in the boot camp, she got a role at IBM working for their internal search team. Part of her larger department, they were also looking for data scientists, and she referred me. It was one of a couple of classmates that she referred. I landed the job. I was more amazed than anyone. I really didn’t think that that was going to happen. I mentioned that in hindsight, it makes a lot of sense. I do think that the skills that I developed everywhere else, whether it’s just basic Excel, basic presentation, basic working with the team, these are skills that some of my classmates straight out of college really didn’t have. I was able to use those skills as an asset, really. When I was interviewing, and to this day, I think it’s amazing to me how much more I use my soft skills than the technical skills that I’m constantly developing and leverage soft skills all the time. It makes sense looking back on it that I was able to do that. Joseph: Was there anything in particular that you learned about the job market? Since you were able to successfully, and very almost suddenly, land this job in such a distant different area from what you were doing before. What did you learn about the job market and how it works? Erika: [25:19] Not to sound repetitive, but I think that that was really the biggest takeaway. That I’m competing with data science PhDs, and people that are recent graduates and master’s in Applied Math, et cetera. These are highly technical people. I can’t compete with them on a technical level. It’s just four months out of boot camp is not going to cut it compared to the potential decade of work that they’ve done in this field. They don’t compete in that sense. I compete by using everything else I learned at my other jobs. It really is harder to teach soft skills to someone than it is to teach technical skills. I use that to my advantage. I knew that it’s if you’re a manager, data science machine learning engineering manager, you don’t want to have to teach someone how to write an email or how to make a presentation, or how to filter down relevant information when you’re making a presentation to a higher up. I knew that I had those skills, and that’s really what I showcased when I was interviewed. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with some of your learnings is just what you’re focused on right now at IBM. What exactly is it that you do at IBM as a data scientist? I know you mentioned the chatbots before, most machine learning. Can you just tell me a little bit more about your day-to-day job these days? Erika: [26:42] Sure. I can’t mention too much of the technical stuff because we are an internal-facing team. One of my favorite parts of the job is really trying to distill machine learning or data science and to really just straightforward concepts. It’s an industry that tends to be a little gatekeeper-y, and use a lot of really fancy language, like machine learning and deep learning, and there’s no need for that. I mean data science and algorithms surround us in so many things that we do. I think it’s so important that people understand how that process works, and how it is that a machine does the machine learning, how those patterns get identified. They’re just looping people in whether it’s content writer, designer, or higher up that isn’t really familiar with the specifics of the technology. It’s just really boiling that down for them, and just really explaining it in straightforward language so that it’s less of a black box. I think it’s really satisfying and I love that part of my job. That I can make it less gatekeeper-y and make sure that people have a say and understand what’s going on because it really is all around us. Everything that we’re doing with algorithms and data science. Joseph: Very interesting, yeah. That is a world that I know virtually nothing about. You’re absolutely right about the need for there to be people out there who can explain it in plain simple English to those of us who are not involved in that sector. That’s very interesting. Erika: [28:17] As someone who really literally just learned it, it is so important for me, too. Because it felt like it was so unattainable to learn all of these things, and it wasn’t! I’m here as the data scientist. I may not be as nearly as technically advanced as other people, but I’m still able to code and contribute. It’s important to make sure that other people have a say in the things that we’re doing. Joseph: I think that goes back to one of your earlier points about the fact that you didn’t have the traditional background that maybe other data scientists have. But because of that, not in spite of that, but because of that, you’re actually very well positioned to explain this to people outside of your function. Whereas, somebody who’s maybe lived and breathed data science their whole life, they may not be able to extract themselves from it and explain it in a way that’s digestible to the average layperson out there. Erika: [29:13] Exactly. Yeah, very well said. Joseph: Well, the last thing I was hoping to wrap up with, Erika, was just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting and winding career journey. I know you mentioned the medical condition that you had to manage, and that you continue to have to manage in your career, and also your life. I know that there are people out there who are also dealing with either a physical disability, or they’re having to take a leave of absence, or even these days, quite commonly, emotional challenges that are really taking over their day-to-day life and professional life. But, what would you say to other people out there who might be struggling with an emotional or physical condition, but have maybe just had to either shove it to the side or to just self-manage it? What would you say to people out there who might be struggling with something challenging in their careers? Erika: [30:02] First, I’d say, “I’m so sorry.” That’s really tough. It really is such a challenge. I don’t want to pretend that everyone has the luxury of taking two years of absence. That’s definitely not the case for everyone who’s incredibly lucky to do that. But, I’d say right now, especially in the context of a pandemic, to prioritize your health in whatever way you can. Whether that’s if you have the ability to take some time off, to really be able to take a step back and listen to your body. Figure out what’s going on. I don’t think pushing through to continue working under the circumstances that you’re going through is healthy. I think if you’re not already burnt out, you will be burnt out. Your body will find the most inopportune time to make sure that you get the rest that it needs. Regardless of whether you need to have a super important presentation or need to finish up a project, your body will decide for you. To whatever extent you can, please prioritize your health. It’s so important. We only have one body. We only have one life. And if nothing else COVID has taught us that it is so important to prioritize that before work. Health is always before work. Joseph: Yeah. That is a very good reminder I think to all of us because I think we can all get in this. I guess, they actually kind of like in popular media and in movies, they almost glamorize this hustle culture, and that you got to work hard to go to achieve all your goals. You have to finish what you started, and yet, there’s a cost to all of that. You’re right! If you don’t pay attention to your body, at some point, your body will force you to pay attention. Thanks for that advice. When you look back on your career change, is there anything that you wish that you had known about making a major career pivot that you now know? Erika: [32:08] I really wish I would have believed in myself more. I think this has been a humbling career transition for sure. Every day at work, I definitely feel like I don’t know anything. It’s constant imposter syndrome, but I’m learning. I’m still going through it, and I’m still figuring things out. I doubted myself so much at the beginning because like I said, I was comparing myself to people that had years and years of technical experience and that really wasn’t the correct route, I think. It is the most rewarding thing to be able to go from, “Oh, wow! I don’t know anything. This is an entirely new topic and subject,” to being able to code just a little bit in it, and then finally really understanding the concept. It’s the most rewarding experience to go from novice to — not expert, but less of a novice. It has been the best part. Joseph: Having been through this career change, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself? Erika: [33:13] That I could be happy at work. Obviously biased by my own very specific experiences, but I just always assumed that work was just work, and misery was always attached to it. But, you weren’t really ever going to enjoy work because work was really just for a paycheck. But, the fact that I really love what I do, that I’m constantly learning, is such a blessing and I really never thought that that would be the case. Joseph: Well, thank you very much, Erika, for taking us through your journey and all the ups and downs. I appreciate you getting into some of those details related to your medical condition. I just wanted to thank you for telling us more about how you actually can stand out and be effective in a role, even if you feel like you don’t have the traditional background of a typical person in that role. The impact your medical condition has had on your career. Ultimately, how you managed to pull off a major career pivot in spite of your condition, and all the challenges you faced along the way. I hope you bounce back from your surgery and continue to make a full recovery. Also, continue to manage your condition the best you can. Thanks, again, for coming on to the show. Erika: [34:27] Thank you so much. Yeah, it was my absolute pleasure. Thank you, Joseph.

Have you ever had an idea for product you feel should exist but does not exist? For some, they would just leave it at that, but in Tommy Kelly’s case, when he struggled to find a natural, sparkling caffeinated beverage in the supermarkets, he decided to create one himself. In episode 76 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Tommy Kelly, a former nuclear plant engineer turned cofounder of the organic sparkling drinks company Sound, shares his thoughts on figuring out the ideal time to make your carer pivot, building your ideas patiently and persistently, and finding a great cofounder. I thought Tommy would be a great guest for the show because he made quite a radical career change, which I hope can inspire you to also make a change. Also, he has a firm belief that career changes, while incredibly daunting, can also be life-changing in a good way. He wanted to share his story as a way of inspiring others to turn their side hobbies into something more. I hope you enjoy hearing his journey as much as I did. Key Career Insights If your idea doesn’t sell right away, it doesn’t mean you should give up, especially if you know some people have reacted positively to it. You can continue to iterate and improve, until you have your breakthrough. Learning, improving, and iterating are a necessary part of any career change journey. Our careers are in many ways security blankets in our lives that provide stability and predictability. Moving on from a job, even one you don’t like, can be incredibly daunting. Tweetables to Share When embraced and accepted, negative emotions can be a powerful catalyst to positive change in one’s life and can lead to a deeper feeling of meaning and authenticity. Dr. Paul TP Wong Tweet This More Resources How to Handle Toxic Emotions That Hold You Back From Changing Careers, my article in Fast Company- August 2021 Listener Challenge My challenge to you is to fully acknowledge and attempt to overcome one of the daunting, negative emotions you may be feeling as you navigate your own career transition. Whether related to sadness, fear, pride, embarrassment, shame, or disappointment, try to give it a label so you can begin to process it. While no magic bullet exists to tackle any challenging emotion in the midst of a big transition, half the battle is being able to identify it whenever it inevitably shows up during your journey. About Tommy Kelly, cofounder of Sound Tommy Kelly is the cofounder of Sound known known for its unsweetened sparkling drinks that create unique flavors through a combination of Certified Organic teas, botanicals and fruit extracts. A former engineer at the Indian Point Nuclear Energy Center, Tommy came up with the idea for Sound inside the plant to satisfy his own desire for a crisp, carbonated, and caffeinated beverage that wasn’t filled with all of the sugar and artificial ingredients in soda. So he started carbonating tea. And that idea went from hobby to business in 2015, after teaming up with his former colleague, Salim Najjar. After gaining distribution in Whole Foods, they made the official jump to launch Sound in 2016. Follow Sound on Facebook and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Tommy know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Interview segment music credits Night by ikson. Music provided by Plugnplay Music  “Nettson – Last Promise,” “Hayden Folker – Adrift,” and “Keys Of Moon – Warm Memories” are under a Creative Commons (CC-BY 3.0) license. Music promoted by BreakingCopyright.  “Deep” by SergePavkinMusic Nature byInfraction Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Your career, in a lot of ways, is a security blanket. It’s what provides income and stability. Saying that you’re moving on from that, whether you paved that career or not, is incredibly daunting. That was definitely the scariest thing for me. Joseph: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I would love to talk about your entire career going back to your time working in nuclear power and then we’ll talk about your time as a founder. Could you first of all, just kick it off, by giving us a sense of what you have been focused on. What’s been keeping you busy in your career and your life? Tommy: In life, definitely family. I have two young boys, a 2 ½ and 5-month-old. That’s been a lot and I have my wife, Lauren as well. I’m definitely prioritizing time with them. Career-wise, I founded a beverage company about six years ago which I sure we’ll dive into more detail. That’s been pretty much it. Life has been family, Sound and sleeping soundly while I can. Joseph: How has your life been affected by COVID-19 and you can take that in any direction whether it relates to your work at Sound or even just balancing work with family life and your two sons. Tommy: I think for myself, it’s been less of an interruption than maybe for most people. The reason being that I was working from home prior to COVID and our own team is very much remote. That didn’t really change. I was already set up for that. It’s been great in a sense where there is that lack of commute and I was able to spend time with kids and balance that life and career. Outside of that, it really just forced us to kind of all make our circles smaller and spend more time together. I would say that that’s really been the positive of it but from a career perspective going to the office hasn’t really changed. Joseph: I want to go back and talk a little bit more about your transition into working in the space of entrepreneurship and more about Sound. I’d like to first go back in time. I know you haven’t always been the co-founder of an organic sparkling teas company. Way back in the day, you were actually working as an engineer at a nuclear powerplant. Could you tell me a little bit about that chapter of your career? And then, we’ll move forward from there. Tommy: Yes, the unlikely transition. I was working as an engineer at a nuclear powerplant which is north of New York City and Westchester County. It was one of those things where in college, I was studying mechanical engineering and graduate with a degree there. I graduated in 2009 just as the bottom was falling out of the financial markets. There were a few different opportunities career wise that were presented, and this was one. I actually interned there previously. It was the best opportunity so I took the job. It was definitely a unique career to get into at the time. Joseph: I’d say, I’m guessing that most people listening to this, including me, have not stepped foot into a nuclear powerplant. Could you give us a glimpse into what its like to work in one? Tommy: I actually worked in an office building. I was an engineer but I was not in the plant at all times. I was often asked to go into the plant to inspect heat exchangers, valves—whatever it might be. I would spend 80% of my time in a cubicle. If you didn’t look out the window and see a nuclear powerplant right in front of you, it could have been anywhere but when you’re in the plant, it feels like it’s a very—it’s almost like a clean basement. You have boilers, piping, valves. We didn’t get too deep in on the nuclear side. Generally just one month a year during reviewing outages. It’s not a Homer Simpson situation. I think many people envision it like that. Joseph: Right. What exactly was your role there? You mentioned you focused on mechanical engineering in your undergraduate studies. What exactly were you responsible for at Indian Point? Tommy: I had primarily two roles there. The first was on the preventive maintenance side. I was responsible for managing and optimizing a lot of the testing of equipment. It’s like if you get your oil changed or get your car inspected. It’s the same idea. It’s how can we test and inspect the pumps and valves and the equipment to ensure that they’re not failing because it’s always more expensive to replace something that just maintain it. I shouldn’t say always but often times that’s the case. So, that was the first, the preventive maintenance side. Most recently, the career that I actually transitioned from, I was working as an engineer in the service water system which essentially took water from the Hudson River. We pull it into the plant, into the piping system to remove heat. It was just a lot of inspecting heat exchangers, maintaining the pipes and the systems related there. Joseph: Okay, so, you are spending your time focused on maintenance. Sounds like you are working on things that I know very little about like heat exchangers. How did you then go from focusing on that sort of work to starting to think about this drinks company that you eventually went on to found? Tommy: It was one of those things where I knew I didn’t want to be doing what I was doing. I just didn’t know what I did want to do. At the time, I was applying for MBA programs. I was also applying for jobs in the financial markets and something that I felt like had some relevance to engineering. I was applying also for engineering jobs, studying. I was kind of placing these little bets on every direction to see what felt interesting. One of those, at the time, I was carbonating tea just as a bored engineer at a nuclear powerplant. I said, you know, I was surrounded by soda drinkers and I was drinking tea and sparkling water one day and I was like, I wish I could combine these two things as a soda alternative. It would be cold, carbonated, and caffeinated like a soda but organic, unsweetened. It would be lacking all those chemical ingredients that are often found in most big soda brands. That was something that was just a hobby. I knew nothing about the industry. It just really evolved into something over time. Joseph: It sounds interesting because it sounds like it just sort of started off as you trying to create something that you couldn’t find in the marketplace. How did you start to think that maybe you could be on to something and that this could go beyond something for yourself and maybe other people might enjoy it too? Tommy: I can vividly remember sitting at the dinner table with my wife, Lauren, who was a registered dietician—she still is but she worked at a hospital setting at the time. In parallel with me doing sparkling tea, she would talk about patients who were just so uneducated. There was this predatory marketing where they would say, “Oh, I don’t drink soda, I just drink ginger ale,” or “No, I don’t drink soda. I drink apple juice.” There was just this kind of fire starting to build where it was like, this company needs to exist. There should be beverage companies and consumer companies out there that are advocating for human health and not just making money off of really clever marketing. That was kind of the convergence of where it was like, “okay, this makes sense.” It’s an idea and people seemed to like it and I think it was in those conversations where the passion for it started to build. I was never passionate about tea per se but the other thing in terms of positively impacting lives was something I felt very much passionate about. That was really the catalyst that took it from idea into more of, “How do we make this into a business?” Joseph: I see. You mentioned earlier that you didn’t really know anything about the market, or how to launch a brand. I know that there are people out there who are listening to the show sometimes and they think, “Oh, I’ve got an idea except that I have no idea how to move forward with it.” How did you take this idea of something you were brewing up in your kitchen and turn it into a commercialized product? Tommy: It took a lot of time. It’s definitely worth mentioning that my co-founder and business partner at Sound, Salim, who was also an engineer at Indian Point. We worked within the same small 8-person group. Between the two of us, I started it and was creating the recipes and brought it to him. He tried it. I started doing that in 2012 and we didn’t launch the product until 2015. It was a very long time where, between the two of us, we were just digging deeper into the market. We were talking to suppliers. We were figuring out how to produce this thing. It didn’t really exist in the market anywhere. No one was producing our product—an unsweetened sparkling tea. It took a very long time. We just let it grow organically. We did a little bit of a market study. We put it out there and see if people like it or not. We put it out in a couple of stores and see how it sells. It just slowly, slowly built. Joseph: One of the things you mentioned was going to suppliers. Were you literally just looking them up and just making appointments with these people and pitch your idea to them? Tommy: More or less. That was actually something early on, that definitely inspired us to really name the brand “Sound.” Actually, early on, our brand was called, “Sodterra.” That was what we launched it as. It was intended to mean “soda of the earth.” 90% of people couldn’t pronounce it but at the time we would be getting these ingredients and spreadsheets from certain suppliers, and it might be a peach flavor and it wouldn’t say peach anywhere on it. So that was a wakeup call to us about the industry in general which drove us towards “Sound” and “Sound” ingredients, organic extracts and other clean ingredients. Going back to the question, we were just asking around, reaching out on the internet, trying to find people who would sold [ingredients]. I remember just buying loose tea off the internet thinking that’s how you do it. One conversation led to another and the dominos ultimate start falling and you eventually get to the supplier who you should really be talking to. Unless you know someone in the space who can really make those connections for you, it’s a lot of just detective work, really. Joseph: I want to shift gears a little bit. We’ll continue to talk about this topic of Sound. By the way, I love the name. I used to work in branding myself and there’s a lot of names I don’t like. The name “sound” works really well. Tommy: Sodterra might have been one you don’t like. Joseph: I don’t mind it! I like clever fanciful names out there. I want to talk a little bit about your transition. You said in 2012 to 2015, you were spending a few years trying to figure out if this thing has legs. Were you still working in the powerplant at this point in time? And if so, how did you balance those two endeavors? Tommy: I was working there until January 2015. It ended up being about 2 and a half years from the time the concept started to the time I actually moved full time into running Sound with Salim. I remember one time specifically, I was doing a demo at my lunch break, doing a sampling at a restaurant nearby. I drove there during my lunch break and Salim called me. The plant had shut down and they needed all hands on deck. He left the hard hat for me on the stairwell and I ran straight to the plant but we were really using every spare minute to try to row this business. It was very much a great thing about the job itself too. It wasn’t demanding in a sense where we could be out the door at 3 or 4 o’clock and spend 4 or 5 hours a day or more later that day working on the business. Joseph: How does one decide to move from working on an idea with, in this case, a colleague, Salim, to formalizing that relationship and actually becoming co-founders. I know that finding a co-founder is something that is not easy to do. A lot of people will have a falling out with a co-founder. How did you guys decide, “Hey, this is something I want to work on together, formally, long term.” Tommy: That’s a great question. Salim and I—I think it was the perfect situation where…I think it’s really hard to start a business wit your best friend. There’s always going to be tension. There’s always going to be disagreements that are hard. The closer you are to someone, maybe, at least, the more that egos can play in. Salim and I were very close at work but we also had very complementary personalities. I think we truly saw the value in each other’s skill sets. I started, obviously, the concept and I was protective over it in terms of letting people in. So, it took a little while but Salim, if you knew him, is just an amazing guy and it really just positively impacts the business and me personally. He really did complement a lot of the skills that I knew. I think for starters, the single think to look at is where…if you’re a single person starting a business you need to look inward and ask “where are my weaknesses? Where do I need help? Where am I not good at? Am I good or bad at sales, marketing or whatever it might be?” If the person you trust is complementary to you and you can really appreciate each other and add value, to me, that’s the perfect scenario. Joseph: Can you take me back to the moment when you decided that you were going to leave your job and work full time on Sound? Tommy: It was late 2014. We got the product into Whole Foods and we picked up distribution. The time was right where we were like, “Okay, we need to stay through to the end of 2014 to get our bonuses and all that good stuff.” At that point, we had determined that the business has legs. There’s something here. We need to really invest into this to give it a chance and invest out time. There’s only so far that we’re going to take if we were working for 5 hours a day part time and being distracted. We made that decision, I think around the latter half of 2014. From the timing perspective, we were like, “Let’s finish the year. Let’s maximize what we can take from the bonus perspective and all that good stuff.” We were milking as much as we could there. So, there were actually 2,000 people on the site and there was only 8 of us working as a group where Salim and I worked together. We both had to break the news to the same boss. He actually was going to Lebanon. He’s Lebanese. We decided he would quit a couple of weeks before me. So, it kind of put me in an awkward spot. Back-to-back, two weeks in a row, we went to the same guy saying that we were quitting to start a beverage company. So that was a bit awkward. That was the scariest part of the whole thing, just breaking the news. Joseph: It’s never an easy thing to resign but to know that you’re doing it right after somebody else in you team has done it is even tougher. Just to talk a little bit now about your journey at Sound. When you look back on, let’s say the first week after you reigned from the powerplant, and you and Salim were thinking about this thing, what was that like? What concerned you the most? What excited you the most? Tommy: I think at that point, it was very much, “you don’t know what you don’t know” mode. In terms of what excited us, that was the easy thing. There’s an infinite runway. We were going to sell the business for billions of dollars in 3 years. That’s what was happening. So, that was what was exciting. The scary thing was just along the way and you figure out, “okay, this is actually incredibly hard.” This is something where it’s a unique product. It’s in line with trends. People are going to buy it. The scary thing was when people didn’t buy it. And you’re like, “Okay, what did I just do?” But that said, we continued to reiterate and there were enough people that loved it. We knew something was there. There was just improvements needed to be made from a packaging perspective, formulation, or whatever it might be. But I think that was the only scary thing about it in the early days. Joseph: Can you just take me through how you then got this product onto shelves? A really big barrier for a lot of smaller brands is distribution and major retailers. How did you go about doing that? Tommy: I think we initially grew up, most of us, in Duchess County in New York. So, about an hour and a half in New York City. There was a local distributor there that sold healthy dairy products. They did egg, milk, a lot of refrigerated food and beverage items too. They worked with Whole Foods. It was one of those, chicken or the egg things where you have to go back and forth. We were able to find those Whole Foods buyer and say, “Hey, if this distributor would start distributing our produce would you pick it up?” And we need to go to the distributor and say, “Hey if Whole Foods picks it up, will you distribute it?” It’s kind of just inching along those conversations to a point where ultimately they said, “Sure, we’ll give it a chance.” And a Whole Foods distributor picked it up. Prior to that, were able to sell it to a friend who had a deli but that’s not really moving the needle. The sort of getting it on the shelf was the big win for us was getting it on the Whole Foods shelf in the north east. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you learned along the way, I just have to ask you about the product itself. I was just looking at your flavors out there which are very unique. You got things like rose tea with lime and cardamom, green tea with grapefruit and mint. How did you guys decide on the flavor combinations? Tommy: Going back to the early days, the products were very much framed around function. Our first three flavors were chamomile, Yerba Mate. We had a flavor called, white tea that doesn’t exist anymore. But the idea was first around kind of how you used it within your day. The chamomile was the calm, and the white tea was refresh, and the Yerba Mate was called alive. It was highly caffeinated. So it was different flavors that you would drink through out your day. We started first with the base ingredient hence, the chamomile, rose tea, green tea or Yerba Mate. We were really looking at first, from a caffeinated versus a non-caffeinated perspective. And then also looking at trends. Rose tea was very on trend. It was unique and something that you don’t really see on the market. And then, we have an advisor that we brought in, probably about a year into the business, who still works with us now. We bring him general ideas and he’s the one who is a little bit more in the weaves (?) on flavor and understanding…he came up with the idea that well, cardamom and lime would pair really well with rose tea. It would kind of have a middle eastern concept. We would try a ton of different flavor variations but generally speaking, we start with one base ingredient and a complementary botanical ingredient like lavender or cardamom. There’s the fruit extract too. The fruit component is what we felt like pulled it a little bit more mainstream. Someone would be able to see vanilla, lime or grapefruit. We wanted it to feel approachable but also unique enough that it wouldn’t be just like lemon sparkling water or lime that you’d find anywhere. Joseph: As I’m listening to this, Tommy, you sound very much in your element. If I hadn’t know that you worked in a completely different industry before, I would just assume that you’ve been working in the food and beverage industry for a really long time. How much of your past experiences in the nuclear powerplant end up playing a part, if at all, in your work at Sound now? Tommy: I think at the nuclear powerplant, I have to say, very little. That said, I think it’s just the passions and the way my mind works and Salim as well, that both drove us to pursue careers in engineering. It’s very much about resourcefulness and the mindset that there’s a solution to every problem. It’s always having that mindset and continuing to learn. We both love to learn, improve, and iterate. I think all of those things from a bigger engineering perspective are all incredibly relevant. But if I was in a nuclear powerplant, for better or for worse, I think I didn’t retain a whole lot. Joseph: The last thing I wanted to talk with you about, Tommy, is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your quite radical career change. One of the things you mentioned to me before we started recording today is that making career changes can feel incredibly daunting but also life changing. I’d like to ask you about both parts of that statement one at a time. First, what did you find mot daunting about making the career change? Tommy: The most daunting for me at the time, was really just… Your career, in a lot of ways, is a security blanket. It’s what provides income and stability. Saying that you’re moving on from that, whether you paved that career or not, is incredibly daunting. Just losing that, making that major life change is daunting. That was definitely the scariest thing for me. Moving beyond that, I mentioned we had this stage of bliss where you’re like “Okay, we’re free! We’re off the leash!” And then I would say years after that is when it really started to become a bit scarier on the financial side. In a prior career, when we you need a day-off, you can get a paid day-off. But when you run your own business, generally, the only thing moving the needle forward is you or your business partner. If you’re not working, that’s it. The clock stops. So, that’s the scary thing there from a financial perspective is you have to be working every single day, generally, to be able t continue pushing that forward—to be able to get back into that level of security where you know there’s enough of the business around you to keep paying the bills. I think that’s how things evolved from scary to exciting and then a blend of both. But mostly driven by the security that your career provides for you. Joseph: How has your life changed since moving from working in a secure job at a powerplant to launching and now running your own drinks company? Tommy: It’s definitely been an incredibly positive change. I’d be lying if I said there weren’t moments where there was “Okay, what are we going to do if we don’t close on this financing?” Or when we can’t pay for this or that. That’s always present and it’s kind of looming. Anyone who owns a business has that in the back of their mind. But beyond that, it’s been an incredibly positive change where I used to wake up and dread going to work. I would sit there and just scroll through the internet or whatever that might be. At this point, I wake up and I’m excited. I wish I had more time to work. That’s what we all dream about in a sense. Not just to want to work every single minute of every day but to love what you’re doing that much that you would actually even consider that. It’s been incredibly positive and my wife actually works with us here. To be able to work with her and be able to have that balance with the family as well has been incredibly positive. Joseph: I did want to ask about that, Tommy. You mentioned that you’ve got a couple of very young boys. I think one is 6 months old. The other one is not even 3 yet. How do you balance the work with fatherhood and parenthood. I’ve got one young daughter and she’s coming up to four and I can barely balance anything going on around the house versus spending time with her and also running my own business. What have you learned about managing that balance yourself. Tommy: It’s a lot. My wife and I joke about that it feels like every minute is scheduled to an extent but the first things to go are things that are for yourself like leisure. I have friends who are golfing and going on trips and outings and this and that. The first things to go for me are golf, watching sports, or whatever it might be, right? That’s something that I’m very much comfortable with. Loving what I do, building that and then spending time with my family. I love being a parent. I think as long as you kind of love what you do and love being a parent and you’re willing to invest into both, it’s great. It’s definitely tricky especially in the past year or two with COVID and all the challenges that it brought especially not being able to leave. There’s definitely those challenges but I think it comes down to being focused and being scheduled. Getting up early to get your work in or to get your half hour of just to sit and do whatever it is you might want to do like read a book. And just not having wasted time is really the biggest thing. Joseph: I want to wrap up, Tommy, with what you’re doing right now there at Sound. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you and what’s coming up on the horizon for you and Sound? Tommy: For us, a lot of it now is just continuing to grow distribution. We spent a long time just iterating and evolving within the market. A few months ago, we launched a completely revamped brand and packaging and all that which has been huge for the brand and our sales velocity. So now, we’re starting to expand geographically, growing our team. We just hired a couple more people over the past month. The team is growing, the business is growing. We’re really just focused on expanding now that we feel like we have the positioning, the product and the right spot. Joseph: That’s very exciting. If people want to learn more about you or Sound, where can they go? Tommy: For Sound, it’s drinksound.com. You can find us on Instagram too @drink.sound. I’m personally on Instagaram, @tommy.kelly. You could also email me, anytime at [email protected]. I think those are probably the best two spots. Joseph: Thank you so much, Tommy, for telling us about your unique journey towards founding your own company, the upside of making a bold career change, and also your life as an entrepreneur and father. Best of luck with that new distribution push and with growing the business. Thanks again for your time. Tommy: Of course. Thank you so much for having me on to tell the story, Joseph.

Is it ever too late to explore your other career interests? Marketer turned voiceover artist, actor, model, and writer My Ly doesn’t think so. Her firm belief is that it never hurts to give something a shot, even if your background experience is unrelated or when you think your chances of “success” are slim. In this episode of the Career Relaunch podcast, My shares her story of pursuing a few different side hustles during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic and discusses what opportunities have emerged from these explorations. We talk about the trade-offs of full-time employment versus self-employment versus contract work along with the importance of maintaining a positive mindset when exploring new career possibilities. Key Career Insights Dabbling in different areas without layering on too much expectation can be a really effective way of opening up new doors in your life and career. Things may not work out exactly the way you think they will, but at the very least, you’ll learn something along the way. Timing plays a huge role in the career pivots. Even if you feel like this moment isn’t the right one to make a leap, reframing your attitude to focus on just giving things a try rather than trying to succeed can enable you to take action. Anything is possible at any age. Just because you haven’t dabbled in something before doesn’t mean you can’t get into at a later age. Tweetables to Share If it's possible for someone to achieve something, why can't that person be you? My Ly Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, my challenge to you was to give something a shot. To give something a go that you’ve been thinking about trying out for so long. To focus less on whether you’ll be good at it or as good as others at it, or whether you’re going to be “successful,” but rather to focus on attempting it for the sake of exploration, learning, and most importantly to finally just seeing where it takes you. Maybe it goes nowhere. And that’s okay. But maybe it can be the start of something you never imagined would be possible for your career and life. About My Ly- Marketer, Actress, Voiceover Artist, Model, and Writer My Ly is a passionate, energetic, and creative individual who loves networking and helping others to inspire and grow. With over two decades of marketing experience in the beauty, construction, banking, and hospitality industries and a love for writing as she works on her debut novel, My has made the most of the lockdown period, during which she’s done work as an actor, voice over artist, model, and editor during the pandemic. She’s now doing what she can to inspire other people with creative interests to pursue their dreams. During our chat, My referred to the Cutty Sark, where she’s the featured model on their homepage, the London Transport Museum where her voice is featured in one their exhibits, and View Magazine where she’ll be doing some editorial work. To learn more about My, follow her in Instagram or Clubhouse @my_petite_my. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and My know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Music featured in show Isobel O’Connor / Band of Cubs, Our Waters / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com From Now On / Magnified / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Alex Ora / Daylife, Walk the World, Into the Mountains / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com From Now On / Magnified / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com View Points / Imprints of Life / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Headlund / Doors Wide Open / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Lindsay Abraham / Morning Hike, Sunday Bright / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): If its possible for someone to achieve something, why can’t that person be you? Unless you give things a try, you’ll never know if something is achievable or not. Joseph: What are you up to right now? What have you been doing in the past few months? What’s been keeping you busy? My: Back in September of last year, right at the beginning of the first UK lockdown, I ventured into some side hustles. I experimented with acting, voice-over work, and that’s been quite interesting because it’s not taken me to my current situation. I’m really sort of pursuing those particular creative outlets. Joseph: You’re also working full time, right? Can you remind me of what you’re up to right now with your full time work? All these voice acting and modelling, you’re doing this on the side, right? My: I work a full time job in marketing and I’ve been working in marketing for over 21 years now. I love what I do from a day-to-day perspective and I always have loved marketing. But I’ve also been a very creative person as well all throughout my life. With these side hustle experiments—or side hustles, shall I say—they are all fitted in and slotted around my day job. That can be quite challenging because my marketing day job is very busy and hectic. I’m juggling both then demanding day job, as well as then, evening to weekends and early mornings, fitting around all the other aspects that I’ve fallen in love with as well. Joseph: We should probably go back in time a little bit. I know you’re working in marketing right now but you had a few detours along the way, from what I recall. I think the first time you and I crossed paths, in 2012 or 2013 when we served as judges in London for a marketing award event. You were working marketing sushi for Yo! Sushi and I was marketing ice cream for Häagen-Dazs. Can you tell me a little bit about your earlier career in marketing? After that we can talk about when you stepped away from it, returned to it, and how you fit in all these side gigs. My: It was really early on, taking us back to my university days. I actually did an advertising and marketing degree. I really loved it and then fell into working into my first marketing job. I worked first in a lot different marketing sectors and industries. From the hairdressing industry, construction industry, banking industry, and hospitality industry—which has been a massive love of mine for over 8 years now. For me, it was quite important to think about different industries and also experience those industries because I think you don’t necessarily know what type of industry or company you might want to work for. I’ve been working in hospitality for probably 8 years now, and it’s obviously my marketing day job. An opportunity came up for me to work in terms of my marketing consultancy side of things. It’s always something that I’ve wanted to do but never had an opportunity. So, when the opportunity came up, I really wanted to give that a go. I loved it. I had a couple of clients straight of the book and I really enjoyed working with those clients. Joseph: Were you doing that alongside you full-time job or did you completely stepped away to do your own independent consultancy. My: I had stepped away from my full-time job and then became self-employed and worked as a marketing consultant. I really enjoyed that. I think it’s a very different ball game when you came from working, for a long time, in permanent salaried jobs and then switch over to being self-employed, running your own business, running your own consultancy. I can definitely see different pros and cons being on both sides of the coin. I really did love going out, networking, getting my own clients and working with my clients as well. One of the reasons why I decided to come back into more of a contract role, initially, and then come back to a permanent, salaried member or staff, is because actually of my creative paths and routes. I was also wanting to work on my debut novel. I think what I quickly realized when I was working on my marketing consultancy is that working on your own business means you’re working on it pretty much 24/7. That’s really what led me to start thinking about how I’ll be able to carve out some time to do something a bit more creative and to start working on my novel again. How could I do that? What I wanted to do was to go back to a contract role, first of all, and then have the stability of getting back into a permanent job. Joseph: Let’s go back a little bit here. There’s a couple of transitions that are quite interesting. You went from working full-time to being self-employed. What surprised you about working on your own? What were your plans and how did things actually pan out? My: One of the biggest challenges about being self-employed, especially quite early on and quite new to it, I realized quite quickly that I missed the whole kind of having my own team, department, and being able to bounce off ideas with other people as well. That was quite a big shift and change. You’re obviously very reliant on yourself in either networking or pitching to get new work. A lot of the time, you’re potentially working by yourself unless you collaborate with other entrepreneurs. That was quite a big shift, having worked in a company with departments and your own teams where there was more than just one of you. Where as when you’re transitioning into becoming a marketing consultant it was a bit more challenging having other people to kind of bounce off ideas from. Joseph: I can definitely relate to that. I think when you’re working on your own, it can feel very isolating and very solitary at times. This is even way before COVID, when everybody else seems to be in the office and you’re kind of on your own doing your own thing. It can become very lonely at times. At the same time, it does offer you some freedoms and the flexibility and autonomy to do whatever you want, whenever you want, work with whichever clients you feel would be best for you. What was it like to then go from that world of working independently and then back into a more traditional contract or full-time job in marketing? It’s always been something that I felt could have ended up being the path for me. It’s not what I ended up doing but I’ve always been curious about what it’s like to go from being self-employed and back into the full-time world. My: Timing is everything, Joseph. I think sometimes things obviously happen for a specific reason within your career and lifespan. I think for me, personally, it was probably the right time to come back into, not quite a permanent job, but into a contractor role. I’m the type of person that really enjoys variety in my life so I think the contractor world suited me because it was still quite similar to running your own marketing consultancy. As a consultant, you are working with different clients. For me, it was quite a nice transition because it almost seemed like the next natural step was to get into a contractor role which meant I could work for different companies and view it almost like a marketing consultancy lens before I again transition back into a permanent job for a company. Joseph: You go back into a contractor role. Speaking of variety, let’s dive into this topic. When you an I reconnected, it was earlier this year, you mentioned that you accidentally got into creative side hustles such as modelling and acting. How in the world did that come up for you? My: The first that came to me was really the modelling side of things. During the first lockdown, as most people were, probably, slightly stirred crazy of being in lockdown, I ended up spotting a Facebook post in my local community. During the first global pandemic and the first lockdown, I joined a couple of local groups just to keep a eye on the fact of which supermarkets didn’t have any toilet roll or didn’t have any pastor or eggs. And then a lady put up a post and she ended up being the marketing manager for the Cutty Sark Museum based in Greenwich. It was a famous museum, a popular tourist attraction. They wanted to invite local people to come along and be part of their reopening marketing campaign or advertising campaign. I applied for it. I invited some of my friends to apply for it and it was just something to do. It was just something that I thought, “It would be quite nice to get selected because it means I wouldn’t have to be wearing jogging bottoms or track bottoms for one day or for a couple of hours.” It was a really exciting thing to do. So, I just went on and applied for that. I ended up getting selected for that particular modelling shoot. They ended up using me as their lead models. I was on their website. I was on their social media posts. I was on bus sides and outdoor posters as well. Joseph: How did you get your headshots done? Did you hire somebody to do that? Did you do it on your own? Did you have some that were ready to go? My: I literally applied with a couple of headshots that I had in the past and they just selected people purely off the photographs that you email to them. Joseph: Had you thought about doing modelling in the past? Had it ever cross your mind or was this just something that you did completely on a whim? My: I completely did this on a whim but I have done modelling shoots previously before. The other side of me is for over 15 years, I’ve actually been an extra, fitting it around my day job when I can. I’ve worked on films like Harry Potter, for example, or Twenty-Four, or the Kingsman. I’ve been in shoots with Samuel L. Jackson on the Kingsman. For me, it’s been a really interesting creative outlet that I could do which was completely different from my day job. I’ve been doing that for such a long time. Through my extras agency, I would also get a couple or a few modelling jobs but they’ve been quite a while in the past so I’ve never really thought about being a model at all. And, Joseph, obviously, you’ve met me, so you know how short I am. I’m only 5-foot. The stereotypical viewpoint of models, as you know, very tall, very slim. So, I’ve never taken modelling very seriously. I’ve done a few jobs in the past through my extras agency and then this job came up for the Cutty Sark Museum advertising campaign. I got selected for it and I really enjoyed it but it wasn’t really until when the photographs came back and they were part of the advertising campaign for the Cutty Sark that the modelling side of things really started. I probably owe a lot of the credit to my waxing lady, Linda. She was the person who said to me, “My, have you thought about modelling before?” And it was only at that point when she said that to me, that I thought, “You know what? I haven’t really thought about it seriously before. These photographs have come out pretty well. Why don’t I give it a go? Why don’t I create a website?” I had some different headshots. I had some photographs previously before. I built myself a really basic website and that’s how I kind of started. I started joining some casting websites and started applying for different modelling jobs. Since then, I’ve been doing various different modelling shoots. I’ve been put forward for some quite big names jobs. I was put forward for a virtual advertising campaign for Harvey Nichols. I’ve done modelling shoots—my first fitness modelling shoot for My Zone, a fitness brand. There’s been other various, both paid for and also non-paid, shoots. I really loved it. I loved being part of an industry that is known for potentially [ ] and how you look. I think it’s more about the relationships and the connections that modelling projects can actually offer you. So, I absolutely love working with photographers or make-up artists or hair stylists. It’s just a really lovely way of connecting with other creative people. Joseph: That sounds like a lot of fun and its good for you for putting yourself out there and making all that happiness. It just sounds like its kind of been rolling along for you, since that initial gig. That’s super exiting. I’ve always wondered what would it be like to be a model. I’m not model-material by any means but it’s this world that you see on TV and of course everybody’s seen models in magazines and so, are there any misconceptions that you had about the modelling industry that you feel has been debunked for you? My: I think I’ve realized now, having come into the modelling industry, is that there are all different types of models. Previously before, I probably even didn’t think about modelling at all—which I didn’t—because I thought it would potentially require a certain look or a certain type of person that could fit inside that modelling world. Since I’ve come into the modelling industry world I then realized that you can get all different types of models and there’s so many types of modelling jobs as well. So, anybody could be a model and become a model because there are jobs to suit all different people in terms of what height they are, how they look, what different categories or sectors or whether that’s a fitness model, commercial model, lifestyle model, or fashion model. The most important part is understanding now that most people can be a model if you wanted to. I’m also someone who is not a spring chicken. I’m in my early 40s now, so part of the modelling industry and the acting industry, what I’ve come to realize is the fact that anything is possible at any age. It doesn’t necessarily mean that just because you’re not 20 years old or 30 years old, don’t discount the fact that you could become a model or an actor even at an older age. I think that’s one of the most important things that I’ve really learned across these past seven months and also something that I’m really passionate about in terms of encouraging and inspiring other people if they are itnereted in becoming a model or an actor but they lack the confidence because they think they’re too old to do it in those industries. Or that they haven’t dabbled with it before. They kind of thought about it and it’s something they kind of wanted to do but they’ve not known the right course to get on to. Or they haven’t thought about it because their normal lives’ taken over and its not something that they’ve really considered. I’m actually now really championing and encouraging others that if they are interested in those industries, they should give it a go and see what happens. Joseph: That’s a great lesson My. A lot of people, including me, assume that our careers are pretty much set at that point and there’s no room either for a side hustle or a new career or there’s just no opportunity or possibility for it to be a reality. It’s a good reminder that it’s not too late. Speaking of being able to get into anything, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, we’ve got to talk about acting a little bit here. How did acting start to creep in to your career on top of your contractor role and on top of the modelling you were doing on the side? My: Like the modelling side of things, the acting side of things I’ve completely fallen into by accident during the first lockdown. I had wanted to try and carve out more time to work on my debut novel. The main character in my debut model is an actress. I wanted to try and understand what actors do. What do they think? What do they feel? What is acting? What does it mean? Obviously, from my point of view, I’ve never done an acting course. I’ve never been an actor. I knew a couple of friends at that point who were actors but I didn’t really know or understand what actors do. So, I thought the best thing would be to book myself onto a 3-month beginners’ course in London. Usually, the court would be face-to-face, in person, but because of COVID-19, it had to run as an online course. It was only after doing that first acting course of 3 months that I completely fell in love with acting. And again, by complete accident, I find myself carving out another creative career and I’m excited what’s going to happen next with it. Joseph: I think you’re dabbling with these areas and just seeing where it takes you and that’s a really interesting way of having these new opportunities emerge for you. My: I don’t think I would have ever guessed that I would’ve gotten into modelling or acting. If someone would’ve asked me a year ago or seven months ago, “Would you get into acting or modelling?” At that time, I would’ve gone, “No! Of course not. I’ve never even thought about doing it.” It is really interesting of when you think about doing something but maybe not put that extra pressure on yourself in terms of it is the only thing that you can see yourself doing and piling on that huge amount of pressure is what sometimes actors might do. If you’re able to think about certain careers or jobs where you want to give it ago and give it your best and your all into it, but it might not necessarily be the be-all-end-all. If you’re kind of just exploring it and you’re seeing it more of an experiment to kind of see how far you can get into it, I think it just helps to alleviate that extra pressure that you can put on yourself. And also, alleviating those expectations of success. Joseph: I’m definitely guilty of this. I get really attached to the potential outcomes and achieving those outcomes and that makes the whole endeavour very daunting and I don’t even end up doing it. It’s a good reminder to detach yourself from it a little bit. This is a really good foray into the last thing I was hoping to talk to you about, My. Before we wrap up with what you’ve got going on at this moment, because I know you’ve got a couple of interesting opportunities that have popped up for you. You’ve mentioned the lockdown a few times. I’d like to talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey and I often hear from people who want to change careers that they want to wait for the right moment before they make their move. We’re recording this in mid-2021 and it sounds like these modelling and acting gigs came up for you during the past year in the middle of the pandemic, at the exact time when a lot of people would say it’s not a good time to do something new. What would you say to somebody who’s maybe holding off on pursuing a new path in their career because they feel like now isn’t a quite the right time to make a bold move—either because of the pandemic or because of any other reason in their life. My: Obviously, every person is different and it depends on the life stage and also the personal circumstance. I was really keen, right at the beginning of the lockdown, to not be consumed or worried unnecessarily about the whole doom and gloom of COVID-19 and making sure that I would keep myself really busy so that I didn’t really have time to be worrying about everything that is to do with COVID-19. Having a really positive frame of mind and maybe reframing things is actually a really big part of what I’ve learn so far across these past seven months when I first started pursuing both of these two creative outlets. Reframing your mind is something that can be done by anybody and can be relevant to how people might be thinking if they feel that, “this is maybe the wrong time for me to do it” or “this isn’t something that I’m going to be good enough to do at this particular age.” But if you reframe that to think about the fact that why don’t you just give it a go? See what happens. That’s the kind of attitude I’ve taken on board. I’ll give things a go. Things might not necessarily work out the way that you think it’s going to work out. It might not necessarily take you to the career path that you’re expecting but I think if you can reframe your mind to just give things a little try, even during this period of lockdown where things are very uncertain and things can be quite difficult, I don’t think that you will necessarily lose anything but you might just gain several things. That’s the kind of attitude that I’ve taken on board. I think that’s the other thing about not thinking about if this is the right time. There’s also that fear factor that can creep in and hold you back from doing something. The things that I’ve really learned to across the past seven months is that you have be brave. You have to reframe your mind. Give it a go and just see what happens. And if nothing else, you might just pick up a new skill. You might just make a contact and network with a new person, a new friend. You might create a new friend. I guess it’s just having that positive mindset to be willing to give things a go and be willing to be brave and see how that next step might take you to a different place or to a new opportunity. Joseph: Speaking of opportunities, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself over the past year as it relates to opening up to new opportunities in your career. My: Anything is possible. I know that sounds really, a little bit, too positive or maybe too unrealistic but if it’s possible for someone to achieve something, why can’t that person be you. Unless you give things a try, you’ll never know if something is achievable or not. What I’ve tried to do across the past seven months is not limit my beliefs to, “I can’t do this.” But instead, reframing my mind and so I could give it a go and see what happens. I’ve never wanted or thought of becoming a model before and I’ve never thought of becoming an actor before. Seven months forward, I find myself doing exactly those two things. Joseph: The other question I have for you, My, is I’m hearing is the practicality of having so many things going on because this sounds like a lot. Modelling, acting, taking classes, your full-time job. How do you fit all that in and how do you manage that? My: I think it’s all about prioritizing certain elements. At the moment, for example, I’m having to take a little more of a back seat on the modelling side of things because the acing side of things is coming a bit more to the forefront and I’m focusing on that a little bit more. I think it’s about trying to work through in your given week, what you can realistically achieve. There are little things that I try and do. For example, for the acting side of things, I try and apply for some castings so just some jobs maybe 10 or 15 minutes per day. I’m not spending hours and hours on trying to apply for jobs but I might carve out 10 or 15 minutes everyday in the evening or in the morning before I do my day job, I’ll couple batch of applications out of the way and I think it’s just trying to work through what you might need to do on a day-to-day basis in order to be able and try to progress those two avenues that I’ve now decided to pursue. These are small little steps which hopefully, over time, whether that’s across the next couple of months or the next year, will then turn into fruition and into certain projects of certain shoots, etc. that I will be able to add to my CV and add to my skill set. Joseph: I want to wrap up with what your doing right now, My. Speaking of hardwork and things coming into fruition, I know you’ve got some irons in the fire here with some exciting opportunities. Can you just tell me a little bit about these potential gigs that you’re in the running for? My: I’ve got two projects which are definite. I’ve been chosen as an understudy for a short theatre play which is based on a true story about domestic violence and it will be predominantly played by an Asian cast. There are no set dates yet for that short theatre play but we’re hoping that its going to be at the end of this year or next year. It depends on how the world of theatre is going to open up again after lockdown. It’s an interesting role because that will be my first understudy job and it’s another chance for me to learn in terms of an understudy role. I’m really excited about that. I’ve got a second project, which will happen in the summer. I’ve done my two voice over jobs and this second voice over job is for an upcoming exhibition installation at the London Transport Museum. My voice is going to be used for an exhibition in the summer. So, that’s will be a really exciting to be able to go to the London Transport Museum and hear me talking to me. That will be really exciting. During lockdown, I’ve also got myself an editorial role for a luxury lifestyle magazine called “View Magazine”. I’m going to be focused on writing upcoming articles and reviews that are focused around the acting, film and literature world. I’m just sort of getting to grips about what my first few articles might be. So, that’s really brilliant but I suppose the projects at the moment from the acting side of things, which I’ve recently put forward for is something that I can’t disclose details, but I’ve been put forward for a regular role in a big TV soap. I’ve been selected for the first stage. There’s a self-tape audition which I’ve just done and completed. I’m just now waiting to see whether I make it through to the second stage but even if I don’t get any further, it’s a massive achievement to just get to first stage. I’m just really excited and pleased to even be put forward for this particular role. That could be a very exciting prospect, if that pulls through. If it doesn’t, I will definitely be a lovely achievement to add to all the other unexpected achievements that I’ve managed to do across the past seven months. Joseph: Congratulations, My. That sounds super exciting.

Do you ever wonder if it’s too late for you to start your second career? You should never say never. But only you can create the change you seek. No one will do it for you or hand it to you on a silver platter. Having spent 20 fruitful and fulfilling years in the business world, including operating her own successful digital marketing company, Pam Katz is now happily immersed in her second career, nursing. I decided to have Pam on the show because, first of all, given the current pandemic, we’re long overdue for having a nurse on the show. And also, because she’s going to share some useful insights on what it takes to completely shift directions in your career, even if that journey’s a little more challenging than you expected. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll address a listener question about what to do next after you’ve been let go of a job you didn’t like very much in the first place. Key Career Insights and Tips You’re not necessarily going to reach your moment of happiness overnight or your first foray into something new. Putting in some extra exploration and legwork upfront will increase the chances of you finding your way toward a more fulfilling job. When you are starting a new job, you have to lean heavily on the skills and talents that have gotten you to where you are in your life. Those skills aren’t completely irrelevant, even if you feel a bit like a fish out of water. Just because you have a bumpy start to a new role doesn’t mean it’s been the wrong move. Every new job has a steep learning curve, which is par for the course. You're not necessarily going to reach your moment of happiness overnight. Pam Katz Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I addressed a listener question about how to figure out what to do with your life. My challenge to you if you’re unsure of what to do as you look ahead in your career is to step away from trying to figure it all out on your own and proactively reach out to someone in your network to talk things through. The skies may not part immediately, and you may not have any sort of epiphany after the first few conversations, but there is a real power in live discussions that may help you uncover a few helpful themes that help you narrow down the overwhelming number of options out there. You never know what ideas may come up that you never considered before. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:15 Chat with Pam Katz 00:29:17 Mental Fuel 00:36:22 Listener Challenge 00:36:59 Wrap Up About Pam Katz, Oncology Nurse Pam Katz spent 20 years in the business world, including operating her own digital marketing company. Around the age of 40, she went through a mid-life “re-evaluation”. Even though she had a successful business and was good at what she did, she didn’t feel fulfilled by what she did each day. She decided something had to change, and eventually went back to school to get her master’s in nursing. She’s now happily immersed in her second career at the Rush University Medical Center as a hematology/oncology Registered Nurse. She also volunteers her time to help vaccinate people against COVID-19 in the more vulnerable areas of her city. Taking care of others is in her blood and she’s now in a role that helps others, gives back and serves the greater good. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Pam know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Namecheap for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Namecheap for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Namecheap is an affordable, trustworthy domain registrar that offers free privacy protection with every domain registration. Claim your unique website domain today to start building your brand by visiting CAREERRELAUNCH.NET/NAMECHEAP. Music featured in the show Isobel O’Connor / King of Forest Green, My Favorite Tree, Our Waters / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Rippled Stone / Descend, Tales of a Town, Before it Ends, My Moment, Read Me / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I myself was the only one who was going to be able to make that change for myself. I think everybody has to take that step back and evaluate who they are, what they are destined to be, what calls them, what fulfils them, and it’s going to be different for everybody. Joseph: Hello, Pam. Welcome to Career Relaunch! It is great to have you on the show. Pam: Why thank you so much! It’s good to talk to you again. Joseph: I know you’re quite busy right now, so I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. I just want to dive right in. First of all, I want to get a sense of what you have been focused on in your career and your life before we dive into your career history and some of the transitions you’ve been through. Pam: I’ve been at Rush University Medical Center for three and a half years now. I work in the Haematology Oncology unit. We handle all the blood cancer patients and all the stem cell transplant patients. Right now, I’m very focused on getting my oncology certified nursing certification which is a higher-level certification within the oncology area. I’m looking to see what might be next in the nursing area for me whether it’s taking up a notch of what I’m doing or going to outpatient. The great thing I’ve found about nursing is that there are so many opportunities and so many different things you can do with that education and background. The opportunities are endless. Joseph: I know you’ve spent a few years and it hasn’t been a tremendous amount of time—coming up on 4 years working in nursing. I’ve got to ask you, what impact, if any, has COVID had on your day-to-day work as a nurse in a haematology and oncology unit? Pam: Believe it or not, it’s had an impact in many ways for us. The number of patients we’ve had on the unit somewhat dipped during the height of COVID because I think many people were putting off care. The nurses in our unit often end up floating to those units that were accepting COVID patients. You also feel like you’re a part of a bigger mission to attack this pandemic, to help the people, and try to figure out what therapies would work the best. In the course of last year, as the pandemic ebbed and flowed, people can only stall their care for so long. Our census came back up and pretty much stayed up since. But education and communication with our patient population is specifically impacted because most of them have very compromised immune systems and are far more susceptible to catching things like COVID. The impact on them, if they were to get it, would be far more devastating. We had to learn an awful lot in terms of medication strategies above and beyond what we would normally counsel our patients on. Joseph: It probably goes without saying, on behalf of everybody out there listening including me, we definitely appreciate what you and all the other nurses and doctors and healthcare staff are doing out there during these really challenging times. I know you haven’t really been a haematology nurse, Pam. I do want to come back and talk about your day-to-day life as a nurse, but I was wondering if we could go back in time. This is a show about career change. I was wondering if we could go way back in history, and we could talk about what you were doing before nursing. Tell me about your time working in marketing and then we could move forward from there. Pam: When I got out of college—truthfully even going into college—I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do. You’ve got your Venn diagram of what you’re good at and what you like to do, and you have these intersections that can encompass many things. I think I initially went into marketing and advertising because my eldest sister did, and it seemed like an interesting thing to do. I got into marketing. I was working at ad agencies early on, for a good chunk of my career. Then I moved into digital marketing in the late 90’s when things were just starting out. I proceeded to specialize in that field for the rest of my career. I worked at United Airlines. Then, I worked at FTD. I had a number of different agencies and client-side marketing roles. But in the end, I ended up starting my own digital marketing company. It was called Charlotte’s Web Marketing. I did that for about 8 years. It was great. It was very fulfilling at the time. I ran a successful company. I had employees. Marketing’s an interesting beast. I would never want to disparage that occupation overall but for me, it felt like I was trying to sell people things that they didn’t necessarily need. Joseph: You mentioned United Airlines. What were some of the other things you were selling that you kind of felt like, “I’m not really finding this super fulfilling or gratifying. Pam: One of my major clients when I was working at the ad agency was a major movie studio. There’s nothing wrong with marketing movie studios to people and marketing the pictures that are coming out. A lot of them are packaged-goods companies, financial services, and credit cards. There’s a means to an end for all of it. I mean that’s how people find out about products, but it didn’t do anything for me. It just felt like I was pushing annoying advertising at people. Even as a consumer today, if I have videos or things that I’m looking at online and I get interrupted by advertising, I’m like, “Cut it out!” It felt very intrusive. Unfortunately, in the marketing arena, it’s all very subjective. You’re at the whims of your clients. A lot of them would just not take your counsel on what is the best way to integrate into a consumer’s media consumption versus just blasting them as hard and fast as you can. Joseph: It sounds like you had a bit of disenchantment about the work itself because you’re marketing products that you aren’t super excited to market to people. You’re feeling like, should I even be trying—to use your words—to push these products on to people. It also sounds like there is an element of you not completely having control over the output of that marketing in which like it seems you were bit at the mercy of your clients. At what point did you go from maybe being frustrated with these things to realizing that, “Hey, I’m not fulfilled.” How did you know that? Pam: It was a couple of things. One of which was the uncertainty that it all brought. One of my biggest clients was going through bankruptcy. I didn’t know the longevity of what that client relationship was going to look like. Were they even going to be in business? How is that going to impact my bottom line? I think the lack of control and the lack of certainty over my destiny is scary. It’s scary when you’re running your own business and finding out that you may not have perpetual income for the next year. It wouldn’t go unnoticed by most people who know me. I have a decently high-risk tolerance, but I also have to have a certain amount of control and certain gain. It was that combined with not feeling fulfilled by this. So, I sold off the remaining business I had after that big client was having its challenges and I “went to work for them.” But they were based in San Diego and remote working was just not ideal. I would travel a lot there regularly and meet these clients. I’d run up again this same damn thing. It was almost like Groundhog Day because you had little control over what they were doing, and how they were doing it. They would make just what seemed to be very subjective, not logical decision about how to manage their business, let alone the marketing. I think my head was ready to explode at that point. Joseph: Was that the tipping point? When you realized that something had to change? Can you take me back to that moment when you said, “Okay, I’m doing something else?” Pam: I was coming back from a business trip. I was on a plane, and I was messaging with my husband. I was kind of expressing my frustration because of how…you know, how things simmer from a long time and then you slowly turn up the heat and it starts to boil over on you. Then I said, “I don’t know if I can do this any longer. This is not me.” As we kind of talked it out and tried to work through if it was marketing, if it was this particular agency? What is this? At the end of the day what it said for me was I need to be doing something that’s important to me—that I’m feeling like I’m giving back. I’m contributing to society. My motto today is definitely: “Never say never. You can always make a change.” It’s so true. I started doing a lot of information gathering. At the end of the day, it entails more schooling, and leaving making a pay check. I always thought, maybe people thought I was a bit partially insane for doing that but not truly. It was just definitely scary. Joseph: How did you come up with the idea of getting into nursing? Pam: I’ve done a lot of volunteer work over the years. One is I volunteered with a home hospice. It was just the most awesome thing on the planet. What I discovered through all this is connecting with people and listening to people—not hearing them—and really caring for them at this crucial moment in their life was something that kind of drew me in. It was really an enlightening moment for me. When the hospice program got sold, I ended up going to the Lurie Children’s Hospital. I would visit quite a few of these paediatric ICU patients. I’d play games with them, distract them—just kind of help them through their stay from a non-medical standpoint. Volunteering obviously will not make you money and it felt like I wasn’t doing as much as I was capable of. I really wanted to challenge myself. With all of these volunteer roles that I was doing, it really started pointing me into that direction based on those experiences. Sometimes the universe talks to you in direct and indirect ways. It felt like it was pushing me along like a wave pushes to the ocean. I ended up talking to a lot of people in the medical field. I just started really digging into with this and thought, “Would this be something I would like to do?” I ended up taking a medical terminology class at the community college here just to see if I was in the right track. I really liked it. I proceeded to continue to take more of the pre-requisites that one would need. I opted for a master’s program in nursing because I already had a bachelor’s degree. I felt like that was a more calculated good move on my part. Joseph: And are you just doing this in the evenings and weekends or is this a full-time program? Pam: That was a full-time program which obviously made it more challenging because we had one source of income and two small children. They were four at the time when I started this process. They’re going to be twelve next month. Time flies. But you know what, they were going to be 12 years old and I was going to be 48 years old regardless of what I chose to do, so why not take that chance to be happier? Joseph: What was running through your head as you progressed through that program, which I’m assuming involved you being one of the older students in the program? What was the experience of going back to school like for you? Pam: You start to question yourself. Am I capable of this? Can I still learn? Because there’s that old adage that goes, “You can teach an old dog new tricks.” I don’t think that’s actually true. I just think that you learn in a different way. I would say a majority of women—there were a half a dozen men in the program in their 20s but there were actually a couple of women that were older than me. So many of them and I don’t know if this was an age thing or not, were very competitive. It somewhat felt like this cut-throat environment but that wasn’t me. The real nut of it that was just super fascinating for me was that when I was in college the first time around, it was so different. This time around, I was very focused. I knew what I wanted, and the learning was not something I had to do. It was something I wanted to do. It was going to be super important as I moved on and actually took on a job being a nurse. It’s almost like you’re sucking it in like a sponge versus feeling like you had to do things because you know that those are going to be important things that you are going to need and keep in your head when you start working in that occupation. This is a little more fluff, I’ll call it. In terms of marketing, it’s very subjective. There’s not as much concrete like it “should be done this way” or “this is best practice.” I think that’s the way my brain works. It’s a little more…not with all these gray areas everywhere but more evidence-based versus more fluid. Joseph: I would like to shift gears a little bit, Pam, and just talk about your time as a nurse. You graduate from your program. You enter your first nursing role. What was that like for you to go from marketing products to now being in a clinical setting, and taking care of patients. Can you put into words what that contrast was like for you? Pam: Oh my god, it was so different. I was used to being the boss. I was used to knowing my craft inside and out. People would look to me as the expert after 20+ years. It was a little scary. It was a little daunting. I didn’t know everything. I think part of why they wanted me is because of the life experience, the stability, or I don’t know. I discovered that I could lean on the things that I knew in terms of collaboration and relationships, but I really had to focus in on learning the tests, the skills, and not feeling overwhelmed. For the first 6 months to a year, it was like, “oh my God, can I do this?” I would look at these other nurses in the unit—some were older, some were younger than me—they were able to easily do the things that needed to get done but also do the education, the emotional support, and all these other things. I was like, “oh my god, am I ever going to get to that point?” And I did. But at the beginning, it felt like I was drowning a little because I didn’t have the same handle on work than I did before I left my old world. Joseph: At the same time, did you feel like this was the right choice for you? If so, how did you know that? Pam: I couldn’t say for 6 months, and I knew that it was the case. It was not that I didn’t feel right but it was more of if I could actually do it. It’s such a steep learning curve for anyone. Let alone, for someone who had been doing something else for so long but you start to find your hands. You start to be able to build that agility and depth from a task perspective. You start to speed up how you’re able to do things. Things don’t take nearly long as they used to. You learn more about the diseases that these patients have on your unit. You spend enough time with the other nurses and the doctors, and you listen, pay attention and observe. All of a sudden, you feel like the stone that gathers moss. You almost feel like it’s starting to build up and build up and you hit a point where you feel comfortable. More of that sort of snowballed for me. That really cuts it in. Not only do I enjoy doing what I’m doing but I can do it and I’m good at it. I think this is one of my strengths. I know how to communicate with people. I know how to build rapport and trust. Add that and the medical knowledge and the skills, it kind of makes for a good package if you will. Joseph: I think we’ve all crossed paths with nurses at some point in our lives. I certainly have. Do you feel like there are misconceptions that either patients have consistently about nurses or even misconception you held about being a nurse that have been dispelled for you? Pam: I think a lot of people think of nurses as people who are taking your vital signs and cleaning up after you—for instance, if someone was incontinent—the very basic things. They don’t realize the extent to which we go to school and have to know so much about what’s going on. The focus is so much on the providers, and the doctors but at the end of the day, they don’t know it all. We’re the ones advocating for them and eventually they’d recognize that. They’ll be like, “Now I know who I need to get to where I need to be.” Don’t get me wrong, the doctors are very valuable. They know their stuff. They’ve gone to school far longer. I get that—especially when they’re not an internist and they’re within the doctor’s ideal in particular. They’re very specialized. They really know their stuff. I absolutely respect and value everything they bring to the table. But I think the patients expect that, but they don’t necessarily expect that the person who’s really going to be holding their hand through the process is their nurse. Joseph: Before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. I do have to ask you about your experience as a nurse, especially at this particular moment in time. We touched on this earlier but we’re recording this in spring of 2021, and I was reading a study by Incredible Health, which is a hiring platform for nurses. In one of their recent surveys, they conducted on the impact of COVID on over 60,000 nurses. They found that 80% of chief nursing officers reported an increase in permanent nurse turnover during the pandemic. One-third of nurses have experienced financial hardship in the past year. How was your experience as a nurse during the pandemic and how are you coping with that? Pam: I’ve actually read similar stories. The thing that is not surprising is the mass exodus out of the healthcare field and out of nursing. People felt so burned out and overwhelmed by it. I could appreciate that because you have enough people dying on you. You have people you can’t tell because you didn’t know enough or you didn’t have the capacity. We are very fortunate at my hospital. We never turned people away. Our facility was built for a pandemic. It was really built to handle something like that. We were able to turn over so many different units. This facility was really turned into—I’ll say—a war zone facility. Not only were we getting our normal patient population but smaller hospitals or hospitals that weren’t capable of handling these patients were transferring them to us. It wasn’t overwhelming because we were staffed for that. But I’m sure I could see why they would’ve been burned out. They were like, “I didn’t sign up for this.” Joseph: Did you feel like, “Gosh, this was my idea of what nursing is going to be for me and now, this is what it is.” Did you ever have any similar sort of feelings like “Hey, I didn’t sign up for this.” Pam: I didn’t, and I’ll tell you why. I felt like: “No, I didn’t sign on to be in a pandemic but nobody in this world did.” I feel like it was our job as healthcare providers to help people, regardless of the situation. It was almost empowering in a weird way, for me. I could see how people felt overwhelmed and burned out, but I was also new to this. When the pandemic really hit, I was two and a half years in. I was still kind of feeling that adrenaline of newness and really loving what I was doing. I wanted to know how I can help and how I can be part of this. My perspective was probably a lot different. I guess some people come to nursing as a job, some people come to it as a calling. Based on the timing and the revelation of what I should be doing in my life, I’m sure there are other places where I could be working for more money right now, but I really love what I do. I love my facility because they’re very focused on health equity—not equality but equity. They’re focused on really raising up populations and helping populations that needed them the most. We’re on the west side of Chicago which is a less advantaged area, and we do so much as an institution to help people over there. There’s a lot of things related to gratitude and really wanting to do for others that drives me. At so many levels, I walk out of work most days saying: “That was really cool. I was able to make a difference in that person’s life.” Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here is just the lessons you’ve learned along your career change journey. One of the things you mentioned to me when we first connected is that you and only you can make the change that you seek. No one else if going to do that for you or hand it to you on a silver platter. What did you mean by that? Pam: It would’ve been super easy for me to keep doing marketing. It was profitable. I could do it. I knew it well. From my perspective, the gutsiest move was to pick up and totally change because it was completely jarring to my confidence, and resiliency. But at the end of the day nobody was going to say, “Pam, you shouldn’t do this. Here’s what you should do. Here’s the plan. Here’s the blueprint.” I, myself, was the only one who is going to be able to make that change for myself. I think everybody has to take that step back and evaluate who they are, what they are destined to be, what calls them, and what fulfills them. And for everybody, that’s going to be different. I know quite a few career changers in my life and most of them would probably tell you that was best move they could’ve ever made, and they thank God they took the risk and persevered through the uncertainty to get to that place. I have definitely discovered that having more experience does not necessarily make you a better person or make you a better whatever—in my case, a nurse. Even the new guy can have the better idea in anything you’re doing in life. Specifically in the medical setting, it’s how you carry yourself. It’s how you communicate with people. It’s how you build those relationships. Should I have made the change sooner? I don’t know. But I am super glad I did. The other thing that’s interesting is that from an outsider’s point of view or even for me at the outset of this, you always think that the doctors are the experts at everything, but the reality is, that’s not necessarily the case. A different set of eyes and a different set of perspective on anything is a good thing. Just because you’re not the doctor doesn’t mean you can’t have the greatest impact. Joseph: For those people out there who are thinking about switching careers into nursing or making any change in their career, what’s something you wish you had known about career change that you now know having been through this transition? Pam: Do your leg work. When you start to figure out the different areas that you’re interested in, talk to people, and shadow people. You may not know what the next best thing is for you. So, you take that journey. Just because that first step you take doesn’t work out or doesn’t end up being the thing that you really want to do, it doesn’t mean that you’re not going to get there. It is a journey, and it is not a sprint. It’s definitely a marathon in so many ways. You’re not necessarily get to be happy overnight. You won’t get there on your first foray into something new. A lot of leg work upfront will get you to where you want to be faster and in the best place versus rushing into things. If I had rushed into non-profit marketing, I would never be where I am today. I went in thinking, I’m this older student like you were asking me about earlier. I was asking myself, “Can I really do this?” You know, these other girls are going to run circles around me. No, that was not the case. You feel like you’re good at what you do. You feel like you’re smart but sometimes you can even surprise yourself. Remembering that you’re not always the underdog and you may just be the next best thing to what you’re going to be doing next. Take the time to evaluate and know who you are—to know what you want to do next. You’ve got to be true to yourself. Joseph: Thank you so much for sharing that advice and for also telling us more about your transition into nursing, your experience as a nurse especially during this pandemic, and also some of the lessons you learned along the way. I also just want to thank you again for all the important work you’re doing as a nurse—to take care of others during these really challenging times. Best of luck with those certifications and please stay safe. Pam: I will. Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure.

What happens when the career you originally pursued is no longer working for you? In this episode of Career Relaunch, Youssef Salameh, shares his story of relaunching his career from running a family restaurant in NYC to becoming a realtor in Las Vegas. We’ll talk about the emotions of walking away from your career, the barriers that stop you from moving on, and the realities of leaping into a new industry. I decided to have Youssef on the show because his story is one that you might be relate to. Sometimes, we invest a lot into one path in our career, and even when we know we’re not completely happy, we keep hanging on. But as Youssef is going to describe, sometimes, when the writing’s on the wall, you just have to change course. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also address a listener question about whether your next career move should be one that’s practical or aspirational. Key Career Insights Walking away from something you’ve built from scratch will inevitably involve a range of emotions including sadness, disappointment, anger, and fear. Even if you can see the writing on the wall about your need and desire to change careers, people tend to hold onto the careers they have to maintain the stability it offers them. Taking a mental break can actually be very productive and clarifying. Pride can often stand in the way of letting go of a career that is no longer working for you. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of getting very clear with yourself on what specific metrics you’ll use and hurdles you’ll need to cross that will trigger you to pursue something else in your career and define where you’ll draw that line. Will it be a certain number of days each week you truly enjoy your job vs. dread your job? Or accumulating a certain amount of savings so you can feel comfortable weathering a temporary hit to your income? Or will it be something more personal? For example, the number of days each week you can actually tuck your kids in at night? Or the amount of time you feel energized vs. depleted? Decide what’s important for you to have, and if you cross that line from your situation being acceptable to unacceptable, make your bold move, knowing that your transition may be an emotional one as Youssef described earlier, but certainly one worth making. About Youssef Salameh, realtor Youssef Salameh was born and raised in New York City. He and his mother, originally from Lebanon, built a successful restaurant brand there named Wafa’s. And for 11 years, the restaurant did really well, featured at the top of most major publications’ food lists. But eventually, they had to close down their restaurant, and in early 2020, Youssef, his wife, and daughters moved across the US to Las Vegas to launch Wafa’s there. But then, the pandemic hit, and Youssef dropped his plans to open a restaurant there and decided to instead pursue a completely different interest of his–real estate. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Youssef know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I truly didn’t want to let go of it. It was all I know. We decided to sell it and just move on with our lives. It was probably the scariest moment of my life. It was more than a financial loss. It was a personal loss for me. Joseph: Youssef, thank you for joining me on Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show! Youssef: Thank you, Joseph. It’s great to be here. Joseph: Alright, so we have a lot to cover today. We’re going to cover your time working on the restaurant industry and then what you’re up to right now as a realtor. Could you just start us off by telling me a little bit about what you’ve been focused on in your career and your life? Youssef: Well, as of late, I’ve just been focused on the real estate industry as a whole and getting to know the ins and out of it. For me, the real estate industry is a people business. It’s a business that I’ve always been in whether it was cooking for people and now, finding people homes. I’m extremely grateful that I have time to spend with my wife and daughters now which I didn’t have much of before. Joseph: How may daughters do you have and how have things been going for them with everything going on with the pandemic? Youssef: I have 2 girls. One is going to be six next week, and one is going to be 10 in August. It’s been tough on them. They take it well on the surface but as a parent, I feel like it’s my job to notice the little things that are not the same anymore. I mean, don’t forget, they’re not really socializing. They might have maybe 2 or 3 friends on the neighbourhood over here that they get together with, but overall, I feel like children really need to be in a setting with multiple children on a daily basis. Joseph: Yeah, for sure. I think when we spoke before I mentioned I’ve also got a young daughter. She’s 3 and it runs through my head every day, this balance of trying to get her to socialize but also trying to make sure she’s staying safe and not socializing which is a really hard balance to strike. It’s an impossible situation. Youssef: It is. Joseph: Well, we are going to come back and we’re going to talk about your time as a realtor. I know that you recently moved to Las Vegas. We’re also going to talk about that transition. What I’d like to do is, first of all, go back in time and talk about your time—way back in the day—before you became a realtor, and you were working in the restaurant business. Would you mind just taking us back in time and telling us a little bit about your time in New York? Youssef: New York is my home. I was born and raised there. I’m a New Yorker living in Vegas now. I come from a family where it was the mother and her four kids, basically. My mother used to always cook these big, elaborate meals and invite friends and family over. Everybody would tell her, “Hey, why don’t you open a restaurant?” And she’d be like, “Nah.” Before we were in the restaurant business, my family was in the furniture business. All those big box stores came along and it got very competitive. So, one day my mom said, “How do you feel about opening a restaurant with me?” I said, “You know what? Let’s give it a shot.” So, we started in a—I call it the closet. We were cooking up shawarmas and felafels on an electric stove. That’s how small the place was. Joseph: We should probably mention a little bit about your background. You’re Lebanese and you mentioned to me before that your mother is originally from Lebanon. Can you tell me a little about her journey into opening up her first restaurant and what that was like for her as an immigrant in the United States? And this first location was based in Queens, right? Youssef: It was. You know, I was very proud of her because at that point, she had never done anything without my father. And then she just went up and decided instead of going to him, she came to her eldest son, which was me, and she was like, “How do you feel about this?” I said, “If you’re ready, I’m ready.” For her, it was amazing. I basically ran the place. I did learn to cook along the way, but I still cannot cook like her. I mean, she is…When she comes to visit me in Vegas, she’ll cook food for weeks and she’ll just put it in the freezer for me. She was here over the summer, and I just finished her last batch of meat pies a couple of days ago. It was amazing. Joseph: Can you just give me a glimpse of what it was like to start a restaurant. Because I’m just thinking, so many people out there, they start restaurants, but you never really understand what is involved with literally opening the doors on the first day. How did you guys find a place and how did you create the kitchen? What was involved with that? I’d imagine that was pretty complex process. Youssef: Well, that first little location wasn’t complex at all. It was literally done in under two weeks. We outgrew that place in under two years. We literally had people sitting on the outside on the sidewalk, on tables. They’d bring their own chairs just to make sure there’s room for them. It was nuts. And then, the city came to warn us, like, “Hey, you couldn’t do this.” So, we had to close up shop there, but we found a place just two blocks away which was a full-service restaurant. At this point, we thought we had some experience already, so we jumped in with both feet. Now, with this place, setting up the kitchen it’s very intricate. It’s very important to the flow of things. You have to set it up in a way that you start at A and you move in a certain direction to be B, C, D, E, F, and G. G is basically where you send the food out. Everything had to be laid out because you’re working on a system. You’re like a clock. In addition to that, you have to make sure your health codes are up to code. You have to make sure you’re fire department code’s up to code. There are so many moving parts and that’s the job that I took on. I had to worry about everything but the cooking. And obviously, when we were short staffed, I became the jack-of-all-trades. I would help my mother cook. I would wait tables. I will wash dishes if I have to. It just turns into a thing where if you want to be successful, you have to do anything. You’re not too good to do any job. Joseph: So, you’re working with your mother on this restaurant. I can tell it’s already quite an intensive process to be running a restaurant. Your restaurant’s called Wafa’s, right? Youssef: Yes. Joseph: You have a location in Queens and eventually, you opened up another one in Brooklyn. Can you give just a snapshot of what a typical day is like for you. I’m especially curious about this, Youssef, because I’m also thinking about just waking up in the morning and this is kind of unique because you’re not working with a random set of people. You’re actually working with your family. What was that like for you? Can you just take me through a typical day? Youssef: A typical day for me is waking up at 7AM, having breakfast, coffee, seeing my family for—maybe—an hour and then rushing out the door. My first stop would be restaurant depot because I refused to—well we refused, as a team, my mother and I—to use any purveyors because we like to pick our own meat and produce ourselves. So that would be my first stop. From there, once I’m finished there, I would go to the restaurant and start setting up for the day. That was basically pre-opening. There’s a lot of prep that goes into your day before you even open the doors. There’s produce prep, meat prep, and kitchen prep. There’re all the extra little bottles you have to fill up and pita that you have to have ready. No, it wasn’t easy with my family because at one point, my brothers wanted to be involved in this. I mean we’re family, you want to get involved? Sure, come on in. But trust me, it was probably the hardest thing ever but at the same time, the most amazing thing ever is to be able to work with my mother and my two brothers in one business. Joseph: What in particular makes that especially challenging? I can kind of speculate, I’m trying to just imagine if I was working with my own family on a business. I can imagine the complications involved with that but what was the most difficult part of working with somebody who’s part of your family? Youssef: Being in your family, you’re obviously very familiar with each other. You think that you can just say, “This is going to be the way it’s going to be and that’s it.” Well, obviously, no one’s taking that answer. There was a lot of back and forth. There was a lot of behind-the-scenes animosity at times but the best thing about working with family is that you do know each other so well. When it’s crunch time it’s like a fine tune machine when we were all there together. You just move perfectly, flow perfectly. All the customers are happy. Sometimes we didn’t even know our dining room was full and we had people outside. The tables aren’t turning over fast enough. Obviously, there was a lot of arguments, but it happens with families around the holidays too. So, we had holidays all the time. Joseph: 24/7, right? You mentioned flow, Youssef. Things were flowing for you guys. You got Wafa’s in your original location, Queens. You opened up another one in Brooklyn. Sounds like things are going really well. I know when we spoke before you even got some great press coverage. What ended up happening over time for you and the restaurant industry? Youssef: We did get some amazing press coverage. We had The New York Times in there a couple of times. We were Michelin recommended four years in a row. We had New York magazine multiple times. ABC News came in and did an actual piece on us called “Neighbourhood Eats”. We were very successful. It was great because we did it together. We did it as a family. But over time, what I noticed was happening was, my life turned into the restaurant and vice versa. The restaurant was my life. I was a young man and I have a family and I’m unable to be with my family because the rigor of this job is just so demanding. It started getting very hard as I started getting older. I don’t even see them at night. They’re already asleep because I get home at 10 or 11 at night. In the morning, like I said I’ll see them for half an hour and off they go to school. I started wanting something a little different, but the restaurant business was very familiar to me and I was very successful in the restaurant business. I was always scared to move away from it because of my finances, to be honest with you. Joseph: It sounds like things are going pretty well for you then in 2012, Hurricane Sandy hit which I know had major impact on the New York City area. What impact did that end up having on Wafa’s? Youssef: The salt water had gotten into the train tunnels. What happened is that New York City never addresses anything when it happens. They wait 5 or 6 years. At this point we just had the Brooklyn location. They decided that they were going to fix the subway tunnels and the electrical components because of the salt water situation. And of course, we were in Brooklyn, we were in front of the L-train, our shop was 150 feet from the train and that was the reason we picked that location because of the train and all the commuters that lived in the area. But with the train closing, there was a mass exodus out of this particular area in Brooklyn. All the working professionals left. At this point, I was pumping personal money to keep it afloat because after you’re so successful for so long, you can only be down for so long—or so I thought. I truly didn’t want to let go of it. It was all I know. I was doing it for 11 years, at that point. We decided to sell it and just move on with our lives. It was probably the scariest moment of my life, when I handed those keys over on October 31st, 2019. It was more than a financial loss; it was a personal loss for me. We started Wafa’s from a little place—where four people could not sit in—into this brand where we were known all over the city. Where it would be like, “Have you been to Wafa’s?” “Oh yeah, I love that place!” We grew from nothing to something, and we did it all organically. By hard work, perseverance, and word of mouth. Joseph: It must have been really tough. So, you turned in those keys and you’re leaving this restaurant that you built from nothing to something pretty huge, what was that moment like for you as you were walking away from the restaurant? Can you just take us back to that moment when you realized that this thing was over? Youssef: It was monumentally sad, disappointed, obviously very angry. I was scared because at that point, I was the breadwinner in the house. My wife had just finished her masters, so she was just getting her career going. So of course, fiscal fear of not being able to provide for my children. There was just so many different emptions going through me. Thank God, for the women I have around me. They made me just realize that this is just a setback and I’d been so good at what I did for so long that there’s no reason for me to not be good at it again or at something else. Joseph: At the end of 2019, you sold Wafa’s. I’m imagining, okay, everything you’ve known is now gone. What did you do next? Youssef: I took a trip to Vegas with my wife and daughters. Joseph: And your wife has family there, right? Youssef: She does. Her aunts are here and her cousins. It’s been hard for me to get away with them. So, she was like “How do you feel about going to Vegas before Christmas?” And I said, “Sure, let’s go.” So we came. We stayed with her aunt. I rented a car and, I don’t know. I was driving around one morning, and it just seemed so peaceful to me. You know, I didn’t say it to her right there and then but when we got back to New York…We’ve been thinking about leaving New York but I never left because of the restaurant, obviously. So, you know, I tell them, “You know, I didn’t tell you this, but I could probably live in Vegas.” She said, “Really?” And I was like, “Yeah.” She said, “You want to try?” What happened was, basically we were just hanging out watching re-runs of the Sopranos one night, and we decided to move to Vegas. That’s what happened. Joseph: And then you get there early March 2020—when you were way over to Vegas. What did you have in mind that you were going to do in Vegas professionally? Youssef: My wife got here in February. I got here March 3rd. My plans were either a brick-and-mortar restaurant, Wafa’s Vegas, or a food truck. Food was still in the picture for me but not even 10 days later, the world shut down. And you see what’s going on with these restaurants. Anything to do with hospitality was breaking down—literally. And I felt horrible. I felt horrible for these people because I felt like these people were my kinfolk almost. I just couldn’t believe how bad it was for them, to be honest with you. That was also the moment that I realized that I can’t do this anymore. Somebody bigger than me doesn’t want me to work like that anymore or work in that industry. So, I took a step back and I had to re-evaluate my course. Joseph: This is interesting, Youssef. Because it sounds like it felt like the time to move on and at the same time, this is all you knew for many years—the restaurant industry. How did you pick up the pieces? Sounds like you had a realization that this restaurant path is definitely not going to work; at least not right now. How did you then regroup and decide what to do next? Youssef: I just took a couple of steps back because I didn’t even know what to do. I was confused. I was back to where I was when I handed in the keys to the restaurant in 2019, basically. My plans were shattered. I really didn’t think much of COVID in the beginning, to be honest with you. I thought it was going to be that initial two-week lockdown and then we’d be back to life. But lo and behold, that wasn’t the case. What I did was take a mental break. I had no interest in talking about work, career, or a restaurant, or anything. I had zero interest in talking about it. What I did was, for 2 solid months, I just ate. I ate and just watched movies—a lot of movies. It was a very confusing time for me. It was like, you know, this is what I know. This is what I’m good at. This is what I’ve been doing for x amount of years. Now, there’s a big monkey wrench thrown in it. Then it just dawned on me. I did mention to you, previously, that I was interest in real estate back in 2010. And I took a real estate course in New York, and I passed the test but of course I went back to old faithful. I stayed in the restaurant business because as long as I put in the work it was guaranteed for me. Joseph: At what point did you feel like, “Okay, this could actually be something I want to pursue more seriously.” Youssef: It wasn’t like a solid plan for me. It was like, “Okay, I’ll give this a try.” It wasn’t like, I was going to do it all with all my heart and my focus. I’m used to providing. I’m used to going out, doing A, B, C and D, and bring home whatever I’m able to provide with. And now, I’m put in a situation where—or so I thought—that I’ve got to chase people to get things done. Boy, was I wrong. Joseph: In late 2020, I get that you weren’t fully committed to this. You weren’t 100% sold on the idea of going into real estate but you go ahead, and you train to become a real estate sales person. Can you walk me through some of the steps you too to make this more formalized in your life? Youssef: You have to register for 90 hours, I believe it is, of real estate courses. I registered but I refused to do it online. What happened was I had to wait until October 2020 to actually walk into a classroom due to COVID. When the classes opened, I went in and started the course. I met some great people and then the wheel started turning. After talking to people in the industry, seeing what they do, and seeing their success, and seeing that this is just putting in the leg work. If you put in the leg work, this is what you can get. It’s mostly a people business. I started to get that fire in me again. I took the courses seriously and I studied. I even went to the extreme. Nevada was still locked down and I couldn’t imagine finishing my course in November and having to wait until January or February to take the test. I said, “I’m going to drive to Utah. I’m going to get this thing out of the way.” I’ve got the knowledge, and I know I can do it. So, I drove to Utah. I took the test and passed it. I came back and started interviewing brokerages. Joseph: And now, you’re at Scofield Realty. I guess you’ve only been in this for a few weeks. What has it been like for you to make this transition into becoming a realtor? Youssef: I signed in with Scofield on December 14th. Even though I’ve only been legally licensed for about 3 weeks now. Kerby, the owner and the broker of Scofield, doesn’t want you to waste time. So, as soon as I signed on, I jumped into the bootcamp there. The bootcamp was basically for new realtors to be more familiar with the transactions, the paperwork and the process and everything. So, I jumped right into the bootcamp. I got a great mentor, Mikey. He’s a great guy. I’m in this thing to learn from the ground up. And I know I’m going to make mistakes along the way but you know what, that’s life. People make mistakes and that’s how they learn. And they get no after no after no. That what makes it so much better when you get that yes. Joseph: What are you most excited about right now, Youssef, as you look ahead to your career here as a realtor? What are you also most concerned about? Youssef: I’m definitely excited about this new career change. This is something that I never saw coming. I didn’t see myself being excited about being involved in another career, especially at 40 years old. I was just like, “What am I going to do?” I’m just excited to keep meeting new people that I can help with this monumental decision that they’re making in their lives. It’s just such a great feeling to walk people through this process. My main concerns are things that I wouldn’t be able to control—things that just come out of left field. Those are the things I try not to worry about, to be honest with you. As far as my career is concerned, I’m really not concerned because I know my work ethic. When I love doing something, I do it with 110% every day, all day. It’s funny because if you would ask me that question if I was in the restaurant business, I would have rattled off like 10 or 20 different concerns. Maybe I’m just too early in this career to really know the pitfalls off it but, if I wake up every day and I just do my best and keep doing the right thing, I really shouldn’t be too worried. Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about, before we wrap up, Youssef, is this topic of going into a field that you previously knew very little about and is quite a radical departure from what you were doing before. Can you put into words what the predominant emotional hurdle was that you had to get over in order to move on from your time at Wafa’s? Youssef: Pride—definitely. I was very proud of what I did—what we did, not just me. My mother and I, my brothers when they were there. I also had a sister. I was very proud of her when she showed up and she helped when she saw how busy we were. For me, it was a different type of pride. I was like, “I own one of the best Lebanese restaurants in all New York City.” It was that type of pride. I guess that’s why it was so hard to let go of it. That’s what was the best thing about this journey for me. I learned how to humble myself. I’ve learned a lot along my journey. I’m just glad I landed on my feet. Joseph: What do you think is one of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned along the way during your career change journey? Youssef: I felt like even though it was 11 and a half years for me over there, it felt like 20 years because of how much work had to be accomplished on a daily basis. It only took me opening my eyes and looking at it to realize that there’s a much easier way to live and work. As far as changing careers, it’s very scary but, it can be done. I really hope that people that are on the fence about it—even if I just convince one person to give a shot to something else, they’ve had their eye on, I feel like this chat of ours would be extremely successful. It’s scary and it’s hard. It’s so many different emotions that go through a person from finances to fear, to pride, to sadness, to anger, to resentment. There’s so much going on when changing a career because that’s just the way it is. I guess I got too comfortable. We get too comfortable doing the same thing in and out. Jospeh: Speaking of changing careers, can you tell me a little bit more about what Scofield Realty has been doing to grow their team? I understand that they offer a special program to people who are interested in learning more about real estate. Youssef: Scofield Realty is own by Kerby Scofield and his wife. He’s giving scholarships out to people who have lost their jobs due to the pandemic. He’s giving them a scholarship to basically, go to real estate school, start their training and then he’ll have a position waiting for that individual at his brokerage. I really respect that. Honestly, I’m really proud to be a part of that team. Joseph: That’s great to hear. It sounds like a great program and a very generous offer to those who have been either laid off during the pandemic or making a career change during this time. Youssef: Absolutely. Joseph: Thank you, Youssef, for telling us more about your former life as a restaurant owner, your transition, and what you had to do to move on to something new. Best of luck with your new career as a realtor and also with your new life there in Las Vegas. Youssef: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

One of the hardest hit industries during the Covid-19 pandemic has been the airline industry. With global travel drastically reduced, many in the airline industry have had to make some tough choices about their careers. In this episode of Career Relaunch, flight attendant turned coder Christine Snow shares her story of stepping away from her 7-year career as a flight attendant to pursue other interests. We discuss how you can tell whether now is the right time to make a change in your career and also talk through some common hurdles, both emotional and practical, that stand in the way of starting something new. Afterwards, I address a listener question about the other parts of your life you may want to reevaluate when you’re rethinking your career. Key Career Insights Whether maintaining the current trajectory of your career makes sense. When a job isn’t fun anymore, your entire view of the industry can change. A crisis can force you to make the changes you’ve desired for so long One of the biggest hurdles in leaving your career behind is fearing that your current role is as “good as it gets” and you may ultimate just end up returning When you’re doing a job that brings you so much fulfillment, it enables you to feel like you are where you should be in your life. If you know deep down that your current job isn’t quite right for you, not knowing where you want to take your career instead can often leave you feeling stuck. Resources Mentioned Learn more about Zip Code Wilmington, the software development bootcamp Christine graduated from. I mentioned James Clear’s book Atomic Habits, a book I’m reading right now, which is really reshaping how I think about habit formation. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of taking steps to create the path you want for your career and life. If you’re reevaluating what’s next for you in your career, think about the exact type of person you want to be. Take stock of how you’re spending your days, what actions you’re taking, where you’re directing your energy, and the people you are or are NOT prioritising. Then, ask yourself whether you’re behaving in a way that’s consistent with the person you want to be. If you’re not, find a way to change how you’re running things in your life or how you’re reacting to things in your life. Maybe it’s a habit or a work pattern you’ve fallen into that you know deep down isn’t sending you in the right direction or serving what’s really important to you in your life. Take the initiative to do something about it. Make that change. Do it now . . .before you become the kind of person you don’t admire when you look yourself in the mirror. Even if it’s small change, making that change is the first step toward becoming the kinda person you wanna be and the kinda person you can feel proud of. About Christine Snow, flight attendant turned coder Christine Snow spent 7 years as a flight attendant, but her career trajectory completely changed when the pandemic hit in early 2020. While she was at home on a 6 month leave from flying last summer, she started learning how to code, and it hooked her interest and creativity. She eventually applied for and was accepted into Zip Code, a competitive 12 week software development bootcamp in Wilmington, Delaware. Having graduated right before we recorded our conversation, she had just begun her job search and interview process with nothing guaranteed, but she told me that learning this new skill has given her the confidence and hope to start a brand new career for herself in the tech industry, and that she couldn’t be more excited. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Christine know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): The pandemic forced my hand a little bit. It made me look at my career and say, ‘Look, you’ve desired something different for a while, but you haven’t done it. You haven’t had the push to do it yet, and here’s your push.’ Joseph: Hello, Christine. Thank you so much for joining me today on Career Relaunch. You are actually the very first guest I’ve had on the show in a while, since the pandemic hit last year. I really appreciate your time today. Christine: Thanks for having me. Joseph: Can you start by giving me a glimpse into what you have been focused on recently in your career and your life? Christine: I spent about the last eight years as a flight attendant in the US. Clearly, I was in the industry that was very heavily affected when the pandemic really hit last spring. I think in the US was when we first really noticed it in March. I spent most of the next six months at home in my apartment just rethinking my whole career and what this meant for the rest of my life. Did I want to try and stay in this career, if I was even able to industry-wise? During that time, I discovered this deep interest in tech and coding. You are catching me after I just completed this three-month coding bootcamp in Wilmington, Delaware, to become a Java developer. Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, on that. I know that things have actually evolved quite a bit since we’ve first connected last month. I want to get into your current situation in more detail when we get to the latter part of our conversation today. I know you mentioned that you haven’t always been a coder, and I would like to start by going back in time and want to talk about your time as a flight attendant. This is something that you did for seven years at the start of your career, and I’d love for you to just start by telling us how you got into that industry. Christine: I was in college in Atlanta, Georgia. I was graduating with my bachelor’s degree in English with a focus in Victorian-era poetry actually at the time. I was only 21. I didn’t know what I wanted to do at all. I’ve never been one of those people who is clear on what I wanted for the rest of my life. I thought at the time I really love analyzing poetry and any kind of literature, so may I’ll just go on and get my master’s in that. At the time, a friend of a friend, who was a flight attendant heard that I was graduating, and she told me, ‘Christine, you know, my company’s hiring. I could refer you.’ At the time, I was like, ‘Sure, why not? I might as well if they will hire me. I might as well put off more college for a degree I’m not even sure that I want to go have fun.’ That’s actually how I first got into it. Luckily, I was hired at the time, and I spent the next seven years flying. Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit about which carrier you worked for and what the nature of your role was? What exactly did you do on a day-to-day basis? Christine: I worked for Delta Airlines. When I was first hired, I was sent to the New York City base, and I spent most of the next seven years as a New York City base flight attendant. It was quite a big change in my life. Anyone who goes into the airline industry gets a big change schedule-wise. You are constantly traveling, especially when you’re new. You’re working a lot of back-to-back trips, so you’re not home very much. If you are excited to travel and meet new people, and you don’t need to be home every single night, it is the perfect job. It definitely was that for me for a while. Joseph: I guess all of us have cross paths if you’ve ever flown with a flight attendant, and that’s going to be your primary point of contact on a flight. It’s one of those vocations I’ve always found to be very fascinating. I’d love to hear a little bit about the good, bad, and ugly about being a flight attendant to kind of demystify the industry a bit. This is a question I’ve always wanted to ask a flight attendant but just never had the opportunity to do that. First of all, can you explain a little bit about what it takes to become a flight attendant? What’s involved with training? Christine: In the US, when you get hired to work for a major carrier, like Delta, they put you through about seven weeks of training, wherever their base headquarters are. This involves emergency training, mechanical emergency training on different aircraft types, and training you how to evacuate a plane in under a certain amount of time, all the different doors for all the different types of aircraft in the fleet. You have to be certified on those and how you would operate them both normally and in an emergency. You undergo a lot of training as well for medical emergencies. As everyone knows, anything can happen at any time. The only difference in flight is you’re stranded up there, so there’s definitely medical emergency training. As well, customer service training and how to deescalate situations and how to handle cultural situations that maybe you weren’t prepared for before you joined the industry. Joseph: I know that you mentioned deescalating situations. I know that’s been a really big role that has emerged from flight attendants just in recent months with the pandemic and face masks and all that. I won’t get into that, but I’m curious about the social side of it. You mentioned interaction with people who are flying and passengers. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Christine, and this is probably more on longer-haul flights, is that flight attendants spend a lot of the time with one another, with fellow flight attendants. Maybe this is just my perception, but I’ve always just been curious, what do you guys talk about when you’re in the back of the plane, and you’re between serving meals? I just feel like you guys are flying together, you’re traveling together, you’re going into the same hotels. What is that side of the world of flight attendant life like? That’s an element that you may not get as much of in other, I’ll call, more 9:00-to-5:00, traditional office jobs. Christine: You’re right. Definitely we spend a lot of time together, even just in flight talking. Some of that’s talking with passengers who may come to the back just to hang out for a while, but a lot of talking with just crew. There’s actually a term that flight attendants use to describe what happens called jump-seat therapy, where you may have never flown with this other flight attendant before, but you guys are seated on jump seats right next to each other for however many days. Joseph: Right, I see that. I can kind of tell sometimes if people quite don’t know one another so well. Christine: It is a lot of meeting new people, not just meeting new passengers, but at least at my company, it was constant meeting new co-workers and knowing there’s a possibility that I may never fly with this person again. It’s a very unique work environment, I found, just in that alone, because you might make these great connections with other crew members and not see them again. It can also be helpful because if you did not bond particularly with the crew member, you might also not see them again. It’s very interesting. You’re right. Joseph: I have just a couple more questions I do want to talk about what happened in March 2020 because I’m really interested to hear about your transitions. Before we get to that, any major misconceptions you feel people have about being a flight attendant? I guess we’ll first talk about other people’s perceptions and then maybe some of your perceptions in a moment. Christine: A lot of my friends and people I’ve phoned with feel that flight attendants are seen as just the waitress or the waiter in the sky, and they feel that passengers forget sometimes that we’re there for their safety a bit. We’re there for both. We want everyone to have a good flight, but our job is more than just bringing you your Coke for example. We’re trained to make sure people make it through the flight, that if anything goes wrong, we can handle it. I think a lot of flight attendants wish that people consider that a more well-rounded picture of what a flight attendant does. Joseph: I guess there is that huge element of safety that people sometimes overlook and take for granted, but it’s such a big part of the job. Are there any things that surprised you the most about being a flight attendant, either pleasant surprises but also any sort of unexpected challenges in the job? Christine: Pretty much all of your training is what to do when the worst happens or what to do if someone gets ill. Then you get on the line, and you’re flying, and pretty much all of your job turns into customer service. You’re surprised every once in a while, when something really does go wrong, and you instantly have to respond. I remember I was pretty new at the time, maybe only a year or two in, and a woman in front of me, in front of the whole plane actually—I was standing nearby thankfully—she just started choking on her sandwich. It became apparent very quickly that she was not able to get it out of her mouth, and she stood up, and she came over to me, and I was heading over to her anyway, and I started doing the Heimlich maneuver. I was just in shock the whole time that ‘I was actually doing this.’ It’s pretty crazy how quickly everything can change. She was fine. She was totally fine. The sandwich came out. Everything went back to normal, but right after that particular moment, another passenger came up from another part of the plane. As soon as this woman was breathing again, he came up to me and he started complaining that his bag wasn’t directly above his seat in the overhead bin. I just remembered standing there, like, ‘What?’ Joseph: Oh god. Christine: It’s just a world of contradictions, I think. I don’t know. Joseph: Absolutely, yeah. Passengers can sometimes be the most unpleasant people, I would imagine. I can ask you probably about 50 other questions about this, Christine, but I know the show is about transition, so I do want to talk now and shift gears and talk about your transition out of the world of being a flight attendant. We got to talk about March 2020. That’s when, as you mentioned, the pandemic started to hit in the US, just at its infancy. I know it might be hard to go back a year, but can you take me back to the moment in March 2020 where you started to notice something happening on flights? Christine: I don’t think I’ll ever forget it. It was, I think, probably like March 15th. It was right in the middle of the month, and I was working a three-day trip. At the beginning of the trip, all of our flights were still full, overbooked, oversold. Starting on about the second or third day of the trip, flights were just empty. These large planes, we would have maybe eight passengers, and that was just completely unheard of. It was quite a shock from that perspective, just seeing who was showing up and that people weren’t coming. Also, it was just kind of getting alarmed knowing that we didn’t really have the protective gear we needed yet, and we still have to work seven more flights before we made it home. It was being a little nervous to close the overhead bins, ‘What am I going to pick up if I close this one?’ or, ‘I don’t want to rearrange that bag because what if something is there?’ We didn’t have any of the gloves yet, no masks. It was like realizing that the whole world was changing in front of your eyes within a week, I think. Joseph: What was running through your head when that happened? Were you thinking, ‘Okay, this is a temporary thing’? What did you think was going to happen and what started to transpire in your head as it relates to your own career as a flight attendant? Christine: I know a lot of people at the time were expecting it to be over in a month or two. To me, at the time, I already felt like something had changed for me. Something with the whole job had changed. It was a big shift for me, walking through the plane and not feeling safe from germs that I couldn’t see. It really took the fun out of the meeting all the different passengers and getting to have all these interesting conversations with different people. It wasn’t fun anymore. I didn’t want to leave the house to do that anymore. It really affected my view of the whole industry. Around that time, the company that I was at, Delta, offered leaves that people could just sign up for to take. Since there’s also reduced flying, it would help the rest of the company out, and I signed up for it right away. I took a six-month leave. I remember that whole time being at home just wondering, ‘I don’t think that this will go back to normal the way it used to be for me.’ I knew I would never feel the same way that I did about it before, but I also didn’t know any industry would go back. Joseph: Was it around that time that you, then, started to think about coding? How did that emerge? I’m just curious because it’s quite the pivot to start thinking about coding after being a flight attendant. Christine: I actually read an article when I was at home on my leave. It was something silly. I don’t know where I saw it, but it was about how young people, when they’re at home during this time, should be learning Java. At the time, I did not even know what Java was, but it reminded me of a little course I had taken a couple of years ago that it was really not much of anything. I had taken a small, little course on HTML in the past. This reminded me of that, so I thought, ‘You know what? I really need something to do while I’m sitting here at home. Why not? Why not just brush up on that?’ I started reviewing HTML and learning CSS. CSS is like a lot of styling webpages. That was really fun for me because I’m a creative person, and I love seeing the different things I could do with a webpage. I’ve realized, as I was studying those, that those weren’t really cool unless you had some kind of language that could make those do something. I started learning JavaScript just to make my webpages work, make them interesting. Joseph: You’re just learning this on your own, in your own time? Christine: Yes. Joseph: Okay. Christine: Yes. I had nothing but time. Joseph: Right, that’s true, but you’re literally just teaching it to yourself through books and references online? Christine: Yes. There are actually a lot of really great, free references for anyone who wants to dip their toes in. There’s a lot online if you just searched for it, even just for free. That’s really all I was doing at the time. Joseph: How did you find that transition for you? Going from flight attendant and traveling all over the place to then being at home, 24/7, and on top of that, learning a completely new skillset. What was that like for you? Christine: At the time, a lot of my friends were also at home, a lot of my flight attendant friends. They were having a terrible time. They all wanted to be flying. They missed going to Paris or whatever, and I didn’t. I knew at that moment, ‘Oh gosh, I don’t fit the same way that I used to with this career. Something has changed irrevocably in me.’ I knew that I was enjoying coding, and I knew that the more I learned with that, it seemed that the more I found to learn and the more excited I was about digging into it. I thought it only makes sense. I know that I feel different about this career than I used to, and I’m really excited by this new one, and I know that tech is a growing field right now, and I just thought, ‘Why don’t I put all my energies behind this? Because I’m never going to find a better time. If doesn’t work out, I’ll go back to flying whenever they’re ready to have us all back. If this does work out, I don’t need to go back, and I can leave my position to people who want it more than I do.’ Joseph: You mentioned something interesting there. You said that it felt different. You felt different from how you felt when you were a flight attendant. I know this might be tough, but can you describe in words how it was different? The reason why I ask, Christine, is sometimes, it’s hard to decipher and clarify whether something is better for you or not. I’d be curious what you noticed about yourself doing one versus the other. Christine: When I first started as a flight attendant, I was so excited. I was never bored, even if all I did was fly between Atlanta and Minneapolis or something like that. I was having the best time, and I was meeting these interesting people, and nothing was boring. For me, during this past summer of 2021, I was at home. The thought of going back to flying was boring. It no longer held that interest for me. I felt like, in going back to that, I was only going to be exposing myself to risks that didn’t give me the satisfaction that I used to have from it. For me, I’m motivated by what I feel passionate about. What I feel passionate about are different things that I’m learning, different things that have grabbed my attention during the time. Coding and tech, I’m using coding, I guess, as a blanket term. Coding had really ignited that interest in me. It just seemed like a field that I could explore and not get tired of exploring. It seemed like on top of having so much to learn in a really exciting way with it, it seemed very creative, which I had never anticipated before I had started trying to learn to code. Joseph: At what point did you feel like this could become something bigger, like an entirely new chapter in your career? It’s one thing to be learning a new skill on the side, and it’s another to, then, start to feel like, ‘Hey, this could actually be a new career path for me.’ Can you remember when that moment happened for you? Christine: Yes. My husband actually was still working at the time, and I think he was telling his friends at work, ‘Oh, yeah. Christine’s been learning HTML, CSS, JavaScript. She’s just learning to code while she’s at home.’ They were like, ‘Have you heard about Zip Code Wilmington, this school in Wilmington that helps teach people how to become software developers? It has a really good reputation for helping them network and getting them jobs afterwards.’ We had never heard of this. My husband came home and told me about it, and I realized in that moment, as I was looking it up, that this was a real thing and that it was a really achievable thing within reach. If I could get into the school, there is a serious chance that I could have a career as a software developer for a financial institution in Delaware. Just knowing that there was a route, knowing that this had been done, that the people who went to this school came from all different backgrounds, like me—it was a very, very diverse background pool that this school pulls from—just knowing that that path was there made me realize, ‘Oh, this is a possibility.’ Joseph: I know you’ve now finished at Zip Code. We’re fast-forwarding to the current day. That, as I understand, from when you talked with me before, it’s a 12-week course, right? You graduate, and the idea is that it can be an on-ramp to some potential professional roles in the future. Do I have that right? Christine: Yes, perfect. Joseph: I know that things have actually transpired for you. Before we get to where you’re at, at this specific moment—I know things have changed even since we last spoke a couple of weeks ago—I’d love to talk about a couple of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. When we spoke last time, I think you’ve alluded to this today, Christine. You said that a lot of colleagues told you that being a flight attendant was, I think you mentioned, the best job you’ll ever have. Christine: Yes, exactly. Joseph: But you actually realized deep down that that wasn’t true for you. This is a common dynamic that comes up with really any job when you start to share your sentiments or doubts with your immediate colleagues. I found that in many of those situations, people, whether they’re your immediate colleagues or friends or family, tend to err on the side of reminding you how lucky you are to have what you have, for you just to be happy with what you’ve got. There’s this tension between wondering if the job you have is as good as it gets and something you should just be content with, or if there’s actually some more fulfilling option out there for you to pursue, knowing that it may be more rewarding, but maybe it’s not going to be more rewarding. I’m curious, how did you cut through the noise and make sense of whether your former job as a flight attendant was or was not as good as it gets? Christine: I’m glad you brought this up, because for so many years, I was there for seven and a half years. I did not cut through that noise. I’m the kind of person who really likes to take people’s advice. I guess that’s been to my detriment in some cases, but I wouldn’t change anything in my life, but I know if I had been more confident listening to myself and what I knew deep inside, that this job, my career as a flight attendant was not going to keep my happy forever, I knew that much earlier on. I knew that probably on year two or year three flying, and I stayed for seven years. You hear constantly—constantly—that this is the best job you’ll ever have. I was afraid that there is a possibility they would be right. They would talk about people who left, and all they wanted to do was apparently come back and be a flight attendant again. I was afraid that would be me. You have to face down your fear, but I did not feel that I could do that before this past summer because I didn’t know what direction I wanted to go in. The pandemic forced my hand a little bit. It made me look at my career and say, ‘You’ve desired something different for a while, but you haven’t done it. You haven’t had the push to do it yet, and here’s your push. You’re right in the middle of this pandemic. You’re on a six-month leave. This is your chance. Take it.’ I’m really grateful that I was able to do that during the pandemic, and I’m sure there’s a lot of other people out there who were less than satisfied in their careers beforehand. Maybe this is actually a perfect opportunity for people to be exploring what they’re more interested in. I just feel so lucky that it has all worked out for me so far. Joseph: When we spoke before, you also mentioned something interesting to me that you said, you know in your heart whether something fills you up. Can you explain what you mean by that? Christine: The joy of doing what you’re doing. When you’re doing a job that makes you feel fulfilled, that just brings you so much contentment, you know that you’re fully where you want to be in your life, and I had lost that feeling for a while with flying. Learning to code was kind of like rediscovering that joy again. It’s so hard to explain. Joseph: Yes, it’s one of those tough things. I think it’s what your heart knows, but you can’t really rationalize with your head. It’s just like a feeling, I guess, that you get. Last question before we wrap up with what you’re doing right now, having been through this career change journey—and I know you’re still in the middle of it—as you now look ahead to the next chapter of your career, what are you the most nervous about and what are you the most excited about? Christine: I’m nervous about keeping up. Tech seems to constantly be changing and growing in different ways, and it seems like the companies who come out on top or the people who come out doing well are the ones who are good at pivoting and growing their skills in a certain area maybe, knowing where to learn. That worries me, I guess, a little bit, but that’s also partially what excites me. Just because I know that there’s going to be so much variety still in what I’m doing, continuing in tech, I’ll constantly have the ability to learn different technologies, different things that I can do, and grow in that way. It’s both the fear and the excitement because you’re always a little nervous, ‘Hey, am I an impostor in this situation? Am I going to be able to keep my head above the water? What if the job that I get is too advanced? How am I going to keep up?’ but you just got to keep reminding yourself, ‘You made it this far. You’ve learned so much already. You just got to believe it’s going to keep carrying you through.’ Joseph: On that note, I would like to wrap up with what you’re doing now. I know you just got some news. Could you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for you? Christine: Since we last talked, Zip Code hosted this power interview week at the end of the cohort for all the students who graduated. They helped to set up interviews with their hiring partners, which are financial institutions in the area, and their students. Luckily, I was offered a job actually by one of those institutions. Right now, I’m just going through signing all the paperwork, and I should be starting at that new company on March 1st. Joseph: Wow, congratulations, Christine! That’s fantastic news. I know when we last spoke, I think you hadn’t quite even graduated at Zip Code. Now, fast-forward to today, you got a job offer on hand. That’s great news. That’s fantastic. Christine: I’m just so grateful really. I can’t believe it. I feel like my whole life has changed. Joseph: Absolutely. I just wanted to thank you so much for telling us more about your former life as a flight attendant and the steps you took proactively to pivot into coding and also the importance of listening to yourself and paying attention to what truly excites you. I think you’re absolutely right about the fact that this is a really good time to reevaluate what truly matters, and you’ve certainly reminded us of that. Best of luck with your role, and congratulations again on finishing up at Zip Code. Please stay safe. Christine: Thank you so much, Joseph. You too.

I’ve heard from so many of you recently who have suffered a career setback in the midst of the global Covid-19 pandemic. So today, I wanted to feature someone whose career has also been hit hard by events. Commercial airline pilot turned heavy goods vehicle truck driver Aaron Leventhal shares his story of dealing with personal loss, managing career upheaval, and finding a way to pivot toward something else. Aaron Leventhal- former FlyBe pilot turned Tesco truck driver During the Mental Fuel segment, I also share some examples of setbacks I’ve been dealt in my own career along with my three strategies of dealing with setbacks. If you’ve been dealt a blow in your own career for whatever reason, I hope you find this episode reassuring, inspiring, and most of all, a reminder that you’re not alone. Key Career Insights When you’re managing loss, all you can do is look ahead to the future and find a way to bounce back. Having a plan B in place is a good idea even if you feel like you’ve “made it” or achieved your dream. Setbacks are a normal part of any career. Your ability to manage them is a muscle you can develop and strengthen over time. Related Resources Read Aaron’s LinkedIn post that describes how he shifted from flying airplanes for FlyBe to driving trucks for Tesco. Access job search resources to help you navigate the challenging hiring environment during the Covid-19 pandemic Unexpectedly laid off? These 6 Steps Will Get You Back on Your Feet, my Fast Company article, May 2020 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding a way to manage the setbacks you’ll inevitably face in your own career. My challenge to you, if you’ve had a major career setback recently, either because of the pandemic or something completely unrelated to the pandemic, is to first, give yourself some time to process it. Allow yourself to just feel bad for a few days or even a few weeks is an important part of dealing with any sort of loss. However, I also want you to decide when you’re going to then start taking action. To literally circle a date in your calendar when you’re going to at least try to move forward. Not to figure everything out, but to at least start taking some small steps to begin exploring where you can go from here. Restarting is often the hardest part, but I really do believe that ultimately, action will open up new opportunities for you. About Aaron Leventhal Aaron Leventhal‘s lifelong ambition was to become a pilot. Based in the UK, from the age of 6, all that he and his Twin brother would ever talk about was Airplanes and how they wanted to fly when they grew up. At the age 13, Aaron joined Air Cadets, the real beginning to his flying bug. He then joined the British Army in 2004 as a craftsman in the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers and eventually became a civilian “Heavy Goods Vehicle” tanker driver to help fund his flight training expenses In 2018, Aaron finished training and started working for Flybe as a First Officer,  only to be made redundant A year later in March 2020 when the pandemic hit. He now works for Tesco, driving trucks to deliver household essentials to supermarkets during these challenging times. He hopes to return to the world of Aviation in the coming years. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Aaron know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I’ve lost my job, and with COVID hitting now, there’s no recruiting so I can’t get a job. I have an empty feeling really. I just feel like I’ve worked so hard to get to where I was, and now, I’m back to square one again. I’ve lost my flying dream. I’ve lost something I’ve loved. Joseph: Good morning, Aaron, and welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me in the middle of your very busy schedule. Aaron: Good morning. Thank you for accepting me on your show. Joseph: I want to talk to you about a few different things today, Aaron. I want to go all the way back to your childhood and talk to you about how you became interested in becoming a pilot. I know you spent some time in the British army. You’re also driving a tanker driver for a while. I do want to start by just getting a glimpse into what have you been up to the past few days and what have you been focused on in both your career and your life amid everything going on with the coronavirus. Aaron: In the last few days, I’ve been working as a Tesco driver. It’s in a supermarket in the UK. It’s a heavy-goods vehicle. I’m doing this during night shifts at the moment, which is quite a strain on my sleep pattern and having a child. There’s maybe two or three stores delivering foods to keep the country up and running, really keeping their shelves stocked up for the British nation. Joseph: Thank you for doing that. For those listening from outside the UK, Tesco is the UK’s largest grocery supermarket chain by market share. They’ve got nearly 4,000 stores in the UK. I order my groceries from Tesco, so I also want to extend a personal thank you to you for what you’re doing. Can you tell me about your daughter? How old is she and what is she up to these days, now that the schools are closed? Aaron: Yes, it’s been quite difficult to try and entertain her as time’s going on, and they’re getting bored. The schools have been really good. They’ve been handing us out homework to do via an online app, keeping up informed as to what’s happening next. Her name is Val. She’s coming up to seven years old in July. We’re just getting really frustrated with the situation. It’s quite difficult with work and looking after your child. We haven’t gotten anyone to care for her, and so obviously it’s just myself and my partner. It’s been difficult. Joseph: We’re recording this in early May as context. The UK has now been in lockdown for several weeks. You mentioned that you’re work in the night shift. I actually have a very good friend of mine who used to work the night shift at an airport in Philadelphia. I know it can be really mind-dizzying at times. What’s it been like for you to be working the night shift? Aaron: It’s just been a bit of a shift from what I was doing before. You start roughly at about 6:30 in the evening, and it’s usually finished in 6:30 the following morning, which is a full-on night shift working straight through. It’s difficult, but I know that I’m doing it for the good, and that’s what’s keeping me going throughout the night. Joseph: We don’t always do this on the show, but I actually want to go all the way back in time to your childhood, when you were I believe six, and you first became interested in flying. I’d love it if you could just kick us off by telling me a little bit about your childhood and how you became interested in flying, and then we’ll move forward from there. Aaron: Like you said, Joseph, it started at the age of six. Me and my twin brother, we’d go flying motor airplanes and build motor airplanes. Our stepdad would take us to the airshows, and that was kind of where it really kicked off for me. It wasn’t until I got to the age of 13 and 9 months where I could finally go and join my local Air Training Corps, which is those Air Cadets. I was there in fact five years. That was really where the thought of flying really kicked in for me. Joseph: At that moment when you were 13 and you were part of Air Cadets, were you thinking at that moment, ‘Hey, this is what I want to do. This is what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be a pilot.’ Is that what was running through your head? Aaron: Yeah, I already knew that before I came to Air Cadets, but being in Air Cadets confirmed that exactly what I want to do. As soon as our first flight, at 13 and 9 months, that was it. That’s where you get the flying bug. It never left. By the age of 15, I did my very first solo flight. Joseph: At that point, for somebody who would be interested in becoming a pilot, what would then be the typical path and what did you end up doing? Aaron: There are different routes you can take, but if you’re young enough like 15, 13, and 19 years old, you can go and join your local Air Cadets. I recommend that. It’s free flying, and it really tests if you really want that career before you go spending your big bucks. For me, after Air Cadets, I started to work through what was called the modular route. There’s an integrated route or a modular route. The integrated route is where you can do it in a very short period, have to have a big lump sum of money, maybe £120,000 upfront. The way I did it was what worked best for me, and that was to work and pay for it – pay as you go really, just bits and pieces here and there. You go and get your PPL first, which is your private pilot’s license. You must amass 45 hours. Once you succeed at that, you can then make a decision whether you want to go on to the airlines or if you want to keep it as a general aviation pilot where you can just go out and take your family and fly around in little scenic airplanes. If you’d like to go and be an airline pilot, this is where you got to start building your hours up, and it gets expensive, so you’re looking at like 100 hours pilot in command, total hours of 150. Then you got to go and do some exams, which is about 14 exams for your airline transport license. It took me roughly about 18 months because I was working full-time. Joseph: What were you doing at the time? Aaron: I was working as a tanker driver, so I was doing roughly 12 to 14-hour days with an hour commute on each end of that as well. It was very good work-time management to get through something like that. You don’t get much time to study at home, but I used to take my study manuals with me and stick post-it notes all over my Lorry just so I can revise all the time. Once you finish those exams, that’s when the fun starts really. You start flying. You can go and get your commercial pilot’s license. That’s another course, which is about 45 hours, and then it gets even more expensive, where you’re going on to twin-engine aircrafts, and we’re flying multiengine air things in the UK. I was paying £600 an hour. You go on to see and go into simulators, and then you’re ready to go and apply for your first job. It still doesn’t end there. Joseph: Vey in-depth, very elongated, and quite an investment of time, money, and effort. Aaron: Exactly. I mean that’s the way I chose to do it because it works better for me because I was working. But if you’ve got the money upfront, it can take two, three years. Joseph: I’d imagine a lot of people don’t have that kind of cash upfront as a teenager, and I know that you also spent some time in the British army. What were you doing in the army, and how were you balancing that with being a heavy-goods vehicle tanker driver? Aaron: Two thousand and four to two thousand and six, I was employed as a Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer. I was actually a vehicle mechanic at that time. It was at the British Army where I gained my qualification to drive HGVs dangerous goods. I didn’t need to use that when I left the British army, I was in a civil job to earn the money to fly. In the British Army, it was an amazing experience. I’d recommend it to anybody to go in into the British Army or in any army. It really builds on the foundations of your career. You’ve got your core values. You’ve got to demonstrate courage, discipline, integrity, and selfless commitment. You gain responsibility, independence, and build up on your teamwork. It sets you up for life, and I’m really glad I went in there and did that. Joseph: Yeah, it sounds like an amazing experience. At the same time, I know when we spoke before, you mentioned that, at some point, you realized that it was leading you away from what you truly wanted to do, which was to become a pilot. I’m curious to hear how you ended up coming to that realization. Aaron: I went into the British Army hoping that I’ll transfer over to go in the Air Corps. It was a way of trying to get into flying, but it became apparent that that wasn’t going to happen for a long period, so I made the decision to leave the British Army and do it my own way. I wanted to fly, and that’s my vision. It always has been, so I went to get back on my path and all of it, all of the dream. Joseph: You’re an HGV tanker driver, and you’re doing that to build up your savings to pay toward flight training. Can you just give a glimpse in a typical day in your life as a heavy-goods vehicle driver when you’re driving these huge petrol tankers down the road? What’s that like and what does a day look like for you? Aaron: I live about an hour and 10 minutes away from the depot where I drive the artic lorry. It’s a good hour and 10 to get there, and then my day starts. I was on a night shift, so I usually arrive at about past 6:00 in the evening. We go in, we check in, we sit around and wait until the job comes up, which could be a good hour before you go out. Once we go out, we go and find our unit, which is the front part of the artic, and then you go and connect it up to your trailer, which is already loaded for you. It’s a very straightforward job. You go over the weighbridge, and off you go to your first supermarket. When you get there, the tricky bit comes into play when you got to start reversing these articulate lines. Once a day, you deliver the food, you offload it yourself and the assistants of the front door staff there, and I went and sign paperwork, return back to depot, and off you go again. This is why I choose a job like this, just so I could keep the capacity to train as a pilot. Joseph: I guess something I’ve always wondered—even as a child, I remember being in the car and seeing these huge trucks go by, and there’s normally typically a male driving in the front by himself—does it ever get lonely driving those trucks? How do you keep yourself occupied on the road? Aaron: Initially, no, but as the years went on, it does. Especially with petrol tankers because there are restrictions. You’re not allowed to have any sort of electronic devices or a personal electronic devices, PEDs in the cab with you, because with the fumes of the fuel, especially petrol, it can be very disastrous. The rules are no phones allowed, so we can’t even call anybody. The trips that we were doing with petrol tankers is the aviation side I was doing, so it’s a different jet, E1, which is airplane fuel to the airport. The runs are quite short, so you never really got lonely. It was a good time for me to bring my revision notes with me. That was the only way I could do it, because when I get home, I’m just going to be absolutely exhausted, or my daughter would be around me. It’s actually quite a nice escape to go work and start revising. Joseph: I know when we spoke before, you mentioned 2009 being a major turning point for you. I feel like we have to touch on this because it’s such a big part of your story. What was happening in your life at the time? Aaron: This is about a year now into where I finally started my modular training towards my airline pilot license. On the 19th of April, 2009, unfortunately, I had a big setback. My twin brother passed way suddenly. This was absolutely devastating to me and my family. Joseph: How old was he at the time? Aaron: We were 25 years old. It was lifechanging. I just see the world differently after that really. You realize that life is short, and I was more willing to take the risks, especially like getting big loans and credit cards, which I was a bit apprehensive about. Once that happened, I just thought, ‘You know what? You got to be more adventurous in this life because we’re not around for long.’ That’s really opened up my eyes. Joseph: If you’re willing to share, what happened with your brother? Aaron: It happened leading up to his death. It was about three years. Unfortunately, he fell into depression, and it took maybe three or four attempts of him, attempting suicide. Every time he’d do it, he would ring me – nobody else. He’d just ring me to ask. I don’t know what exactly what he’s saying, but it was like he wants your approval or something or a cry for help. Every time before he attempted suicide, he would call me first. Maybe it’s for me to go – I always stopped it, and then the last time, he didn’t. He just literally got on with it, and he hanged himself. Joseph: I’m so sorry to hear that. I’m just trying to imagine this is your twin brother, and you guys grew up together and had dreams of becoming a pilot. What ran through your head when you heard that news in that very moment that your brother had committed suicide? Is there any way to put that into words? Aaron: I remember when they broke it to me. My world just fell apart at that time. Numbness. The world stops. I just broke down. There are not many words to describe what happened at that particular moment other than just shock, disbelief. Even though the years leading up to it, I kind of knew that something was wrong, and I thought I had my mind set to sort of be ready for that moment, but no. I wasn’t, not at all. Joseph: What do you think has been the toughest part of losing him? Aaron: Not being able to share my experience, our experience of flying. We talked about it all those years before he died. I never even managed to get him in the aircraft – not once, not even fly beside me. When I fly sometimes, I just look over to the left seat, and I was just wishing he would be sitting there. I never had the opportunity to take him flying. Joseph: I sometimes find that certain events become dividers in our lives where you are a certain person before an event, and you’re a very different person after that event. I’m imagining that this must have been one of those events for you. What has changed for you pre and post losing your brother? Aaron: Before losing my brother, I wasn’t willing to take as many risks as I have. Maybe I wouldn’t have gone this far through my training. I’ll never know, but after he passed away, I took the risks. I got the loans. I got the debts. I had to go with it. That’s something I probably wouldn’t have done maybe before. Just being resilient, grabbing my personal control, rebuilding myself after the event, and then getting back into my flight training as soon as possible. I mean the show must go on. Stay focused. That’s how I got through it. I’m a very driven person. That’s how I’ve got this far. Joseph: Thanks so much for sharing that, Aaron. I’d like to shift gears a little bit here and now talk about your time as a pilot. I know eventually, I think it was around 2018, 2019, when you actually were moving toward this dream and achieving this dream of becoming a pilot. Can you share what that chapter of your career was shaping up to look like? Aaron: I was accepted to an airline called Flybe in the UK. It was a regional airline, regional connectivity. I was there for 13 months. Unfortunately, the airline collapsed on the 5th of March this year, which is 2020. Joseph: I do want to talk about that and what’s happened when you were made redundant. Before we do that though, I would like to talk a little bit about your time as a pilot, because I know that this is a dream that you had, and you achieved it. What was it like the first time you climbed into the cockpit and took your first flight where you’re carrying passengers from one place to another? Aaron: The first experience is overwhelming. I just couldn’t believe what I was doing. It was actually happening. I’m flying a big jet. It also thrusts, going on the runway. You rotate and off you go into the sunset. You do flight take off and landings, and then that’s it. You’re ready to go with your passengers in. You go into line training. You’re still training with passengers on as a first officer. The captain’s the experienced guide. To have my first passengers, absolutely amazing experience. To start talking to your passengers as well and inform them of how we’re getting on the premises of the flight is so unreal. Some of the routes we were flying but especially down to Milan, where there were the mountains or snow, it’s just absolutely scenic, really, really beautiful experience. Joseph: I’ve flown with Flybe before because, as I mentioned to you before, I used to live in South Hampton. In the South Hampton Airport, Flybe used to be one of the carriers there. As a passenger, I guess the only time I really see a pilot is either in the terminal when you guys are walking by us in the gate area or maybe I’ll see the back of your head as we’re boarding or if you go to the bathroom or something. If I’m lucky, I’ll get a chance to say thank you to you as we’re deplaning. Can you just give a quick behind-the-scenes glimpse into what’s really going on up there in the cockpit while all the passengers are just sitting back in the cabin, chilling out and relaxing? Aaron: Flybe has quite short sectors we’re doing. We’re doing maybe four sectors, and they’re quite busy days. After your long-haul flights where you might have up to 16-hours flights, the workload can be a lot less than what we were doing. It was very a diverse and dynamic environment that we live in, especially in the cockpit. I’ll give you an example. Once we get airborne, we’re going for our chats, all the way up to the cruise. When we’re in the cruise, the captain and the first officer, we both got our different roles. One of us will be pilot flying, and one of us will be pilot monitoring. There’s always one pilot who’s flying the aircraft, and there’s always one pilot who’s monitoring the back pilot and systems. We take it in turns each sector, so one sector would be, say, from South Hampton to Milan. The second sector would be from Milan to South Hampton. So I may fly bound. The captain may fly back. As a first officer, if I was pilot monitoring, I used to go through system checks. We’re doing timing checks, fuel checks. There’s plenty of stuff that go on with it, especially in the short period of time. It’s a very fast-paced environment. If it was long-haul, it’s more relaxed, but I really enjoy that type of flying because it just kept you in the toes. You never get complacent. You start your cruise, and then you start your descent pretty much within five minutes. You’re in the cruise for five minutes. There’s lots of pressure, lots of challenges, but exciting. We’re communicating with the cabin, talking to our passengers, also talking with our cabin crew, talking with air traffic control. That’s a very busy environment to be listening out on. You could be in a sensor or the other aircraft in the area. It’s very busy, multi-tasked, and multi-talented job. Joseph: Is there any misconceptions that you feel people have about being a pilot for an airline, either ones you’ve heard from other people or even once that you had yourself? Aaron: The biggest one is everybody thinks that the airplane basically flies itself. People say, ‘Oh, the autopilot takes off and land this aircraft.’ There are aircrafts that do do that, but the aircraft I was flying, we would have it in autopilot when we’re passed 1,000 feet above the ground, so it’s much smoother and more pleasant for the passengers when the autopilot takes over. The takeoff and landing is fully onto us, the captain and myself. Joseph: That’s really interesting. I remember way back in the day. I don’t know if they still let you do this, but you could tune into a channel on your headset as a passenger where you could listen to the air traffic control communicating with the pilot. I was always impressed by how much chatter there was. There really wasn’t a whole lot of silence, and there’s a lot going on behind the scenes up there. Aaron: Yes, especially around UK. The transatlantic flights, they’re the quiet ones because once you go over the ocean towards America, it’s a lot more quiet. You’re using different frequencies, HF frequencies. Around the UK, we’re on the VHF frequency. You listen to London controls, Scottish control, and you can hear everything going on. It’s a really, really busy environment. You got to stay engaged and listen to what other pilots are saying because it gives you good situation awareness. You’re also doing your own work and your own space in your cockpit in the flight deck. Like I said, multi-talented. You just end up getting used to listening in to all this chatter. Joseph: Got it. Aaron, you’re a pilot now for Flybe. You’re flying airplanes. You’re living your dream. Then you mentioned earlier that a couple of months ago, you’re made redundant from Flybe in early March 2020. What happened and what was it like to hear that news for you? Aaron: Well, as you can see from our discussion, it took a long time, 10 years, to get here. My whole life has been working towards this dream of flying, and on the 5th of March, when the airline collapsed, it felt like the rug was pulled out from beneath me. Initially, it was a shock. I went through all the emotions – worry and anxiety, ‘What am I going to do for money? How am I going to get back into flying?’ I was devastated. I stayed loyal to Flybe right until the end. There were signs of those problems with the airline. Some people would start a joke and go on over on to other airlines, but I thought, ‘No. I’m going to stay loyal to Flybe right until the end.’ Unfortunately, the risk didn’t pay off. I lost the job. I was made redundant, and that was it. A couple of backs, and I moved from Birmingham back to Cardiff. It’s kind of a triple whammy for me. I lost my job, and with COVID hitting now, there’s no recruiting, so I can’t get a job. On the other hand, I’ve also lost my license as well now. It’s expired, so I’m going to have to pay another £6,000 to go and renew my license when the simulators reopen and the training centers reopen. It’s been a triple whammy, and it’s just been one bad news after another. Like I said earlier on, I’m kind of a resilient person. I’m flexible to change. I’ve gotten back in the lorry. I’m getting back on with it, back on the road, keep the money coming in, helping the nation. I’m looking towards the future now of getting back into the flying career. Joseph: I’ve spoken to so many people, Aaron, just in the past few weeks, who have had what you described like some version of a triple whammy where everything is landing at once, and no good news is coming in. What was it like for you to move from being a pilot in an airplane cockpit to returning back to becoming a driver? I’m interested in hearing your views on that because I guess there’s a couple of aspects to this. There’s returning back to what you were doing before achieving the dream, and then there’s also finding a way to make ends meet at this really challenging time. I guess I’m just curious to hear more about what that process has been like for you. Aaron: I’ve kept a plan B as a back up plan, going back to the lorry just in case. I was always told, it’s always good to have an HGV license because there’s always work out there for you, and so I kept it valid. I kept my licenses valid just in case anything bad did happen. Unfortunately, it happened, but fortunately, I had my licenses to fall back on, and certainly I get help to get through this COVID-19. To go back to driving, obviously the pace of life has slowed right down. I was flying 100 miles an hour in a jet down to 50 miles on a roadway. I have an empty feeling really. I just feel like I’ve worked so hard to get to where I was, and now, I’m back to square one again. I’ve lost my flying dream temporarily. I’ve lost something I’ve loved. What’s happened here is, after the incident with my twin brother, this has prepared me mentally to go through this situation. Joseph: It sounds like you’ve, in some ways, built up this muscle of resilience, having dealt with some major set backs and just emotional loss in the past, which doesn’t make it any easier to go through, but I guess it just helps in some ways to manage the situation and maybe soften the impact of it. Aaron: I have to get back out there as soon as possible. We didn’t get furlough from the company, so I have to get out and start earning some money to get by. You can’t live off air. I’m feeling positive. I’ve got my licenses. I’ve got my hours. I’ve gone through all the training. I’m feeling positive that there is going to be light at the end of the tunnel. I just need to build a connection. Maybe through networking, this may lead to some possible opportunities like my LinkedIn post that I’ve put up that you’ve seen. Joseph: Yeah. Aaron: I was very fortunate with that. I thought to post up explaining I lost my job, and I’ve gone back to being a lovely driver. It went out to 2.8 million people, which is absolutely fantastic. Joseph: When you posted that—because that’s how I discovered you, Aaron—what did you think was going to happen when you posted that? For those people who haven’t seen it, it’s like a side-by-side of you in the cockpit and then you standing in front of a Tesco truck on LinkedIn and just explaining what had happened. What did you think was going to happen when you posted that? Aaron: I just put the post up there for my colleagues because we all joined a group, Flybe Ex-Employees. I thought I’d put that post up as a bit of inspiration to them, to all my colleagues, to give them a bit of uplifting message, just to maybe help them a little bit. When I woke up the following morning, and it was over a million views, I was in disbelief really. I just couldn’t believe what I was looking at. I underestimated the powers of social media. That post, I come home from work after my third night shift of starting this new job. I was lying in bed. I literally just typed up, put a picture on, and went to sleep. I never expected it to go like it did. I didn’t expect the media to be chasing me for it. It’s just absolutely overwhelming. Joseph: That’s a good segue, Aaron, in the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up. That’s just a few of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey, both the ups and the down. I’m curious what you’ve learned about yourself, having shifted into the world of aviation and achieving your dream of becoming a pilot, only to then have that quickly taken away from you and you having to pivot out of that world. What have you learned about yourself through this process? Aaron: The way I’ve chosen to do my flight training was probably the most difficult way because I had to work a full-time job. Going through that experience, I’m really, really proud that I did that that way as well. I could see that I had that drive, prove I had that drive. Being able to handle workload management as well very well, to work all these hours and then to study around it, it’s just not an easy game. Joseph: How do you think this is all going to turn out for you, Aaron? I know it’s a bit of a guessing game. Nobody knows what’s going to happen to the airline industry, but any guesses of how you think it’s going to turn out and also how you hope this will turn out for you. Aaron: The airline industry is very tough, and it does come back. We haven’t been through something as big as this, but it is going to come back. It’s just a matter of time, patience, and keeping our vision focused, and I’ll be back as a first officer somewhere. Joseph: Thank you so much, Aaron, for taking the time today to tell us more about your life as a pilot and sharing some glimpses into your very personal story and also your recent shift back to being an HGV driver for Tesco. As I mentioned before, as someone who orders our groceries from Tesco, I just want to personally thank you for everything you’re doing for the country right now. I also just want to wish you the very best of luck with one day hopefully returning to becoming a pilot again. Aaron: Thank you very much, Joseph, for giving me this opportunity to come and talk to you and hopefully inspire some people.

In addition to the enormous human toll the 2020 coronavirus pandemic has had throughout the world, the virus has also had a significant impact on people’s careers. Some have seen their jobs eliminated, work projects cancelled, roles furloughed, industries turned upside down, and businesses completely shut down. After thinking really carefully about who I wanted to feature in this episode of Career Relaunch, I decided that financial controller Liya Dashkina would be the perfect individual. Liya, who’s also a listener to Career Relaunch, decided a few months ago to resign from her job in London and move back to Australia to be with her partner while continuing to work remotely. Her three-month notice period was supposed to wrap up at the end of March, after which, she was planning to explore new career options in Australia. Then, the pandemic hit. The sudden uncertainty and upheaval she’s now facing in her career is similar to other stories I’ve heard from clients and listeners who have suddenly had their career plans upended. I hope you find this conversation helpful as you figure out how to bounce back from whatever setbacks you may be experiencing in your own career during this COVID-19 crisis. Key Career Insights During times of uncertainty, you can only focus on what you can control. Building relationships takes time. Sometimes, you need to go into it without counting on the fact anything will necessarily come out of it. To be truly successful, you have to be truly invested in what you’re doing. Try to figure out what drives you, what makes you tick, and what gets you out of bed in the morning rather than just “doing what you love.” Now that the world has stopped due to coronavirus, it actually enables an opportunity for you to get creative and reassess where you want to take your life & career. Tweetables to Share Not everything has to be a success in life. Sometimes, the experience is what really matters. Liya Dashkina Tweet This Related Resources Liya mentioned the Business of Fashion is hosting some online events you may be interested in checking out, especially during the coronavirus lockdown. If you are looking for some career resources to guide you during the COVID-19 pandemic, I’ve compiled useful articles on job hunting and virtual interviewing on my COVID-19 career resources page. Liya requested I share this poem excerpt, related to some of the things we discussed during our conversation. If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in the field of your bliss, and they open the doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don’t be afraid, and doors will open where you didn’t know they were going to be. The adventure is its own reward — but it’s necessarily dangerous, having both negative and positive possibilities, all of them beyond control. -The Power of Myth- Joseph Campbell Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about trying to find your optimal path to living with this pandemic. To decide on something in your career or life to let go of, at least for the time being. You can absolutely come back to it later, but I’d like you to consider loosening your grip on what you had expected to do, and focus instead on what you may have to do at this moment given the unprecedented times we’re in. And to try to embrace it . . . because maybe in the long run, we’ll all come out of this coronavirus pandemic having reinforced the aspects of our careers and lives that truly matter most. About Liya Dashkina Born in Russia, Liya Dashkina moved to Australia at the age of 15 where she completed her high school and university studies, qualifying as a chartered accountant and a solicitor. In 2010, her job brought her to London, where she spent the last decade working mostly in the finance industry. In 2018, having always had a keen interest in the fashion industry, she made the decision to leave her career in banking to join a fashion media start-up. At the beginning of 2020, she moved back to Australia to be with her partner, whilst continuing to work remotely during this transition. Be sure to follow Liya on LinkedIn and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Liya know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): It is trying to figure out whether to ride it out and wait a couple of months and then get back to what the original plan was or altering your plans and altering your original idea where you saw yourself. Joseph: Good morning, Liya. I know it’s pretty early over there in Sydney, so I really appreciate you making the time to come on to the show. Liya: Good morning, Joseph. Joseph: I’d like to talk with you today about a few different things, including balancing practical career decisions with your true interests, making a big international move for personal reasons right when your life is flowing, and also what it takes to break into a new industry. First off, I got to say we’re recording this in early April 2020. This is actually the first episode I’ve recorded in a while after taking a break from the show. Right now, the main thing on everyone’s mind is this corona virus, which is very much still a global pandemic at this moment and seems to be just getting worse and worse by the day. I actually just heard a few minutes ago on the news that the global cases of corona virus have now passed one million and had more than doubled just over the past week alone. Here in the U.K., we’re on a national lockdown. This is clearly affecting every single person out there. I was wondering if you could start by painting a picture of your situation there in Sydney, Australia, and exactly what your life has been like the past couple of weeks. Liya: We are currently in a lockdown in Sydney and trying to adapt to this new reality and the new way of living. Sydney is not the worst place to be stuck in a lockdown. I think we’re a little bit behind the U.K. and the U.S. in terms of the timing of lockdowns and restrictions, which seem to be about a week behind the U.K. It has been an interesting time obviously, a very anxious time for many people, both from a personal perspective and professional perspective as well. It’s just very similar. Everyone seems to be on the same page, just taking it day by day and adapting as we go along. Joseph: I’m going to try to stick with the typical format I follow on this show. I do want to go back in time, just like I normally do, and talk about your historical career and your transitions, but before we get to that, I just want to stick to this topic of the corona virus for just another moment here. One reason why I wanted to have you on the show, Liya, is because I know you’ve recently moved back to Australia right before this outbreak happened. You had a certain vision of how things might shape up there. I know you’re not a healthcare worker—nor am I, nor are either of us on the frontlines of dealing with this pandemic in a way that healthcare workers or delivery drivers or many other people are—but what have you found to be the most challenging part of what’s going on at this very moment? Liya: I think outside of the obvious, personal things like being away from your family, which I’ve actually found very difficult, because my family are all in Russia still. Even though I have been living away from them for over 20 years now, it is at a time like this that I found it particularly difficult. I feel it very acutely. In terms of the work situation, there are two things. One is the uncertainty with respect to time. You don’t really know how long you are going to be in this situation, how long to plan for. It makes it very difficult. Secondly, trying to figure out when you are caught out in a stage of flux, especially in a transition period, it is trying to figure out whether to ride it out and a couple of months and then get back to what your original plan was or to retreat into safety or a more traditional secure job if it does come along, but that means altering your plans and altering your original idea where you saw yourself in the next 12 to 24 months. Joseph: Yeah, I totally hear you on all of those things you just mentioned. There’s so much in there that I want to unpack. I do want to come back to it, but the one that really struck me was what you mentioned at the very beginning about being far away from your family. I’m also far away from my mother and my sister. What I found most unsettling about this whole situation and what makes it I think different than being far away from your family in other instances is that you can’t actually go and see them if anything were to come up. If anything were to happen with our parents or people we care about, we can’t actually go and be there with them. I just found that to be a really unsettling feeling right now, in addition to all those things you mentioned about not really being able to plan for anything at this moment. Liya: I think that’s the general overarching thing I found about this whole corona virus crisis that the restriction of movement is just something we’re so not used to. We are very used to being in control of most parts of our lives, and this is completely outside of our control. Being told that you cannot go somewhere, being told that you may not see your family for 6 to 12 months at this point for me, it takes a little while to process and understand. I don’t know if I’ve actually fully reconciled it in my mind. Joseph: I would like to come back and talk about your current situation and the situation right now and how you’re handling it. Just a quick snapshot, what exactly are you doing in your career right now, before we go back in time and then go through your history? Liya: At the moment, I am still working for my London employer. I’m working remotely. It is a fashion media startup. I was meant to be transitioning, rolling off at that job, and trying to find my next opportunity here in Sydney longer term. That’s where I still am. Joseph: What a time to try to do that too. We’ll come back to that. Let’s go back in time now and talk about your time—this is going to be a little confusing, because you were in Australia before, then you moved to London, and then now you’re back in Australia. I’d like to go all the way back to the first time you were in Australia. I know you spent the first part of your life in Russia. What led you to initially move to Australia, before you came to London? Liya: When I moved, I was 15 years old. I come from a family where it’s a very traditional, rather conservative family in Russia. One of the big things in our family was always education. Both my mom and dad are very, very keen to give their children a better life than they had and give them better opportunities. When I was 15, they wanted to send me somewhere to study English. Australia seemed like a good idea. I was meant to be here for a year or two just to finish off my high school and then go back to Russia. Moving at such a formative age, it was so difficult for me. It was so challenging to adapt and to take on this new life that when I got to a place of comfort, I didn’t want to and uproot myself again. By that stage, I formed friendships and applied for university and decided to stay here for a while. I was here for 10 years before then moving to London. Joseph: You studied accounting and law at university there, and then you went on to work in a Big Four accounting firm, is that right? Liya: Yes, exactly. Joseph: How did you go from being in Australia, working in accounting, to then ending up in London in 2010? Liya: Because of the combination of law and commerce that I studied, when I went into the accounting firm, I was allocated into the tax division. I was working in expatriate taxation, which means that we were looking after people who were being sent to work in Australia and Australians who are being sent to work overseas. Through that, I got an opportunity to myself be an expat and experience what our clients go through and be sent to London for a year to work in our London office. It was something that was being offered on a continuous basis to people at my level, and I jumped at the opportunity, because at that stage, I had never been to London. Joseph: At some point, I know you came over here to London, which is where I’m based. This show is all about transition, so I’ve got to talk a little bit about your interest in fashion. At some point, you decided to pursue your interest in fashion. You mentioned when we spoke before that being in London fueled this. Could you just explain how did you get interested in fashion, and how did you attempt to get into fashion? Liya: When I moved to London, I was just so exhilarated by being in a big city, not really knowing anyone and having to make new connections. I looked at it as a positive and exciting opportunity. At the time, it was the rise of blogging and street style. Through the bloggers’ fair, I had connected with someone who’s a photographer and we became friend. I started hanging out in that environment and absolutely loved it. This is before blogging and street style became a multi-billion pound industry. I was hanging around there, and I started trying to think, ‘How can I be in this world? How can I transition into this world but still doing what I do and being who I am?’ Joseph: At that moment, was this something that you felt you would rather do instead of working in finance or accounting? Was that becoming clear to you at this moment? Liya: Yes. I was trying to explore how I could do that and how I can go into that space. I was casting my net quite wide and looking at accounting and finance but also how I could maybe go via the language route. I spoke Russian. I speak Russian fluently. That’s one of the things that I considered at the time. I found an internship with a fashion house in London. I was looking at sales to Russian client to the CIS region at the time. Joseph: I know when we spoke before, you mentioned that this initial attempt at transitioning into fashion didn’t actually end up working out. What exactly happened? Liya: I was young and naïve. To cut a long story short, I ran out of money. London is a very expensive place. I think when you read a lot of this stories and success stories and experiences, people never talk about money. I hadn’t planned properly. I thought I would be lucky, and I would find a job, not realizing that the industry is actually very, very difficult to get into but also very difficult to stay. The competition is very high. I loved my time working at this particular studio. I’ve made some great friends. I’ve got experience, but I could no longer afford to work in fashion. I basically realized that I had no choice, and I had to go back into a more stable job if I wanted to afford my rent and my lifestyle, well any lifestyle in London, really. Joseph: Now, I would be really interested to hear what that was like for you to let go of what you really enjoyed doing and return back to the corporate world. I’m just trying to imagine the dichotomy between those two worlds – the fashion industry, very forward thinking, and then more of the traditional corporate world. I think I recall you ended up going to Barclays at the time, which is quite an established traditional bank, at least from the outside looking in. Liya: There were two conflicting views. One is I obviously wanted to be closer to the creative world. One of the things that attracted me to fashion, in the first place, is that the people are so passionate and enthusiastic and creative. Going back into the corporate world, it was a bit of a shellshock. I obviously have the cultural element of my family views and how family viewed my whole foray into fashion. Joseph: How did they view that? Liya: Russian culture is very similar to a lot of eastern cultures in that way that a serious job is a lawyer, an engineer, an accountant, or a doctor. Anything outside of that is not a safe and sound career. I think my parents were very worried about me in terms of, they called it, a hobby job. I think there was a lot of pressure and a lot of not wanting to disappoint your family, in that sense. I basically realized at that point that I didn’t really have a choice. The reality has set in in terms of the logistics of living. It was disappointing, but also at the time, I felt, ‘You know what? Not everything has to be a success in life. Sometimes it’s the experience that really matters.’ I was so happy that I actually got to take the leap, experience, find out, and not die wondering. I think we’re so focused with such a results-driven society where everything you do needs to become a success, or you have to achieve a result. In this case, me, I was actually quite happy that I was brave enough to actually step outside of my comfort zone and experience it. Joseph: It sounds like it was a moment where you really went for it, which I think is really admirable. Those moments in our lives end up being so rewarding and so memorable in so many ways, and yet you had to make this practical move, which is actually quite a salient point that I know a lot of people are thinking about right now – balancing your hopes and your dreams with the realities of the environment. You go back and you work in banking, and you do that for a few years, and then you started to get a bit of an itch. Can you walk me through what triggered that? Liya: I spent a few years working very hard and trying climb the career ladder and do all things that you’re meant to be doing. I was actually quite good at it, and I had a very good experience. After Barclays, I went into a smaller financial services institution in London. That was a really positive experience for me. I really came into my own in my career and started kicking goals and achieving things and really enjoyed it. But at some point, I think you get to a stage where just hard work is no longer enough. To be truly successful, you need to be very invested and interested and engaged in what you are doing. That was the issue I was facing, that ‘take that next step,’ and to really succeed, I had to go all in. I think the timing was interesting because I was in my early to mid-30’s. It is a time I think where you tend to stop, take a breath, and assess, and take stock of where your life is and where your career is. That’s when I started thinking, ‘Okay, is that all it is?’ Actually, it’s around that time that I discovered your podcast. I started listening to it. I was binging on it. I couldn’t get enough, because I was getting all these stories of people who are in the same shoes as me. It was very, very helpful. I think it was actually quite inspiring and motivational for me to actually take the leap and start looking into what it is that I wanted to do going forward. Joseph: You mentioned the word ‘meant to be’ earlier when you were describing what you are meant to be doing, which I always think is a really interesting topic. What should we be doing versus what are we meant to be doing versus what do we want to be doing. How did you figure out where you were meant to be? Liya: I tried to figure out what was important to me, what drove me. I think it’s misleading to think, ‘Do what you love.’ I think it needs to be a little bit more granular than that. Once you figure out what drives you—for some people its money, for some people it’s power, for some people it’s purpose—whatever it is, you need to figure out what makes you tick and what makes you get up in the morning. By thinking that, I realized that for me, purpose was very important and what I associate myself with. The why is very important. I started thinking about that and what I’ve been interested in, and also trying not to start over as such, but try to combine it. Was there any way that I could combine my interest in fashion with what I had already done and the person that I had become by that stage? I didn’t go on this big job hunt. I actually focused, honed in on this one company that I work for now, The Business of Fashion. I was spending my entire free time either reading their content or listening to their podcasts. I’m really, really enjoying what they were putting out there into the world. They really opened my eyes into some of the issues in the world of fashion that I’ve never even considered. By figuring out what was important to me, and by figuring out what I was doing in my spare time that didn’t feel like work, that’s how I eventually landed at the conclusion. Joseph: I think you mentioned before when we spoke, it took six months for you to actually land at the role that you wanted. Persistence is something we talk a lot about on this show. I think it’s especially relevant right now. What were the steps that you took during this time to stay on the radar of the eventual employer that you ended up working for? Liya: One of the jokes at our company is that I employed myself essentially, because I applied for a job, and I wasn’t really qualified to do the job that was going at the time. I thought, ‘You know what? I’m never going to get this.’ I wrote a letter to the CEO, explaining all the reasons why I was wrong but all the reasons why I should be hired and why I should be in the company. I heard somewhere that in this day and age, you sign an envelope by hand, people will always open it because how often do you get an envelope that is signed by hand? That’s exactly what I did. Anyway, that lead to them reaching out, and I went for coffee with our head of people and just stayed in touch, and I said to him, ‘Would you mind if I checked in with you every other month?’ Eventually, six months later, a job came up. I applied, and I still had to go through the whole process, the application process. Eventually, it paid off. The important lesson here is that building relationships takes time. Sometimes, you need to go into it without the certainty that there will something at the end. Joseph: It sounds like this ended up working out. You end up working for The Business of Fashion. We’re almost to the present day now. You mentioned when we spoke before that at time moment when you were in London and you’re working at The Business of Fashion and you were in the industry and the sector that you want to be in, your life was exactly how you wanted it. Yet, you ended up deciding to move to Sydney. Could you just explain what prompted you to return to Sydney, and what was happening for you at that time with your life in London? Liya: Life happens when you’re busy making plans. I was at a point where everything was going great. I was looking at my life thinking, ‘Finally, yes. This is my perfectly design life. This is what I want to be.’ Then I reconnected with an ex-boyfriend of mine, who is based out of Sydney. For a number reasons, he’s not able to move back to London. I was faced with a question of choice and choosing. At the time, I looked at it as choosing between a man and a job. That was very daunting for me. Looking back at it now, I don’t think it was the right way of looking at it. My inner feminist felt very guilty because I thought, ‘Well, I worked so hard to get this job. I worked so hard to build this life. What am I doing? Can I actually leave all these behind and choose this other path?’ That was very difficult. That was a tough choice because it’s two things that you don’t necessarily want to be choosing between. Joseph: You ultimately did decide to move to Sydney. I can just imagine how tough that decision was because I’ve been in a very similar situation myself, as you know, before I moved to London. How did you envision things going? What were your plans when you decided to move to Sydney? Liya: I realized that I was not defined by my job or by the company that I work for or even the country that I live in, that I have a choice of how to define myself, and I hold the narrative around that. That was very powerful for me because it wasn’t that, by choosing Sydney, I was giving up on something. I then chose to look at it as an opportunity to potentially reinvent myself yet again roll the dice, go on an adventure, do something different. That’s how I dealt with that. That was my thinking. I wanted to keep an open mind, see what’s out there. I know that the industry is very different. The fashion industry is a lot smaller. The media landscape is very different here in Australia. I really want to just get in touch with as many people as possible, have a chat, and see where I land. After having done all that thinking and all of that evaluating, by the time I landed here, I was actually feeling very positive and very open minded. Joseph: That was at the beginning of 2020. Liya: Exactly. Joseph: You’re going to networking events, you’re feeling quite positive about how things can shape up there, and then corona virus hit. I recall you mentioning before that you actually had already put in your notice with your current company at the time, where the notice period was coming to an end in March. Liya: Basically, I was meant to do my three months with BoF and finish off here. Hopefully within three months, I was able to find a job. I felt like I really started making progress. Through my networking events, I got in touch with an executive coach who very kindly decided to take me on as a pro bono case and mentor me through my transition here because she’s been through very similar experiences to me. That has been great, because it taught me that you don’t have to do it on your own. If you surround yourself with the right support network and with people who believe in you and support you, that can be actually quite powerful. Then corona hit, and everything came to a halt. The whole world stopped. Definitely all the conversations we’ve had were put on freeze indefinitely at this point. Joseph: This is the last thing, Liya, that I’m hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what some of the things are that you’re doing at this moment. How are you dealing with the lack of clarity and the free fall that people feel that they’re in when they suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them for reasons completely outside of their control? How are you dealing with this? Liya: You have to adapt. There’s no point in sitting there and thinking, ‘Wouldn’t it be great if and only if?’ That’s not how it works. In any adversity, there can always be opportunity, but you really need to work hard to go and find it. I started to try and see the positives, if there were any, of this situation. Letting go of control, I think that that free fall that you mentioned can be actually incredibly liberating, because all of a sudden, the boundaries have been lifted. You know when people say, ‘If the world was to end tomorrow, what would you do? Now, you get the opportunity. The world is not ending, but the world has stopped. What are you doing? If you could do anything, what would it be? It allows us to get creative and to find opportunities outside of what you’re doing now. I think it’s a great time to reset, rethink, and to create not just in a little creative way, but just take some time. The other thing that was interesting is that it’s an incredible learning experience as well, looking at how the businesses are reacting, how people are reacting, what they’re doing, how they’re pivoting, how they’re adapting. First and foremost, this is obviously a human tragedy, and it’s very, very sad. The scope of this problem is huge. For me, I try to get the most out of living at this time and living through it and taking away some important lessons of how to manage businesses and how to manage your own life and your own mental health. Joseph: You mentioned earlier that we’re all so achievement-focused and how that can actually blind us to what really matters. I really feel this is moment, as you mentioned earlier, when we’re almost all forced to think about what really matters. Have you had a moment to give that any thought? Liya: The one big take away is that what really matters is health and your family and the well-being of people around you. That is number one priority. There’s a lot of fear out there in the world. Fear, initially when you think of fear, you think it’s negative, sentimental, negative feeling. Actually, fear can be good as well. By overcoming fear, it gives you resilience. It creates bravery. Whether it’s fear of death or fear for your health, fear for your job security, all of that eventually, when you overcome it, makes you more resilient. Joseph: Definitely. I would love to wrap up, Liya, by talking a little bit more about how you are managing some of your own thoughts. I know that one of the things that you’re doing right now is you’re doing a lot more writing these days on LinkedIn. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what you’re writing about? Liya: I’ve taken this opportunity to focus on building up my personal brand a little bit, because I don’t know when my career will grow and how it will progress. One of the things that I thought would be good is to write a little bit about my experience. Obviously, a lot of people out there have gone into the world of working from home or smart working, and it’s very new to them. I have been doing this for the last three months, and I realized that actually, perhaps I have something to share that could be useful for people. I sat down and started writing down my thoughts and my experience about spending three months being so far away from my team and working remotely and what that has been like. I try to put down some tips and observations of this new world of remote, I guess. Time, I think, is one of the most precious resources. Interestingly, around this crisis, people have time. People are willing to talk. People are willing to connect. Everyone’s very open. That’s one of the things I noticed, and I’ve been trying to do from my end with respect to my career development, I guess. Joseph: That’s fantastic. We’ll definitely include a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. One other thing that, I think, you mentioned to me before was that The Business of Fashion also has some events that could be relevant to people right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Liya: One of the things that Business of Fashion does outside of editorial and news coverage of the business side of the fashion industry is actually events. As you can imagine, running events in this current climate is impossible, so we have moved and tried to pivot as much as possible into the digital space. We are running a number of live events where they cover anything from wellness to industry talks to career-related talks Most of them are actually free, so you don’t have to be a subscriber. I’ve been following all of them myself as well because it’s great to just connect with other people to talk about things and to realize that we’re all in this together. We also have a number of short online courses on not only fashion but also things like building your career, which is probably one of my favorite courses that we’ve done. It’s run by Musa Tariq, who’s the global head of marketing for Airbnb experiences. I would encourage everyone to come check us out. As you probably guessed from this podcast, I’m very passionate about what Business of Fashion does. Check us out at businessoffashion.com, and attend some of our live events. Joseph: I’m definitely going to do that. I’ve also noticed that there’s been a major uptick in online virtual activities, which is actually quite convenient right now. There were some in the past, but there’s a lot more of those now. It’s a really convenient way to gain access to and also connect with people you might not have otherwise been able to connect with. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you so much, Liya, for telling us more about your life, first of all as a financial controller but also how you’ve managed all the various leaps you’ve taken in life into and out of fashion and then back into it, and most importantly the importance of resilience and overcoming your fears during this time of so much uncertainty in the world. Please stay safe, and I hope things eventually work out for you once things get back to normal. Thanks for being here today. Liya: Thank you so much, Joseph.

We all have to sometimes wear different hats in our lives and careers. You’re often required to wear different hats in your career if you’re balancing different professional identities or just trying to maintain a certain image at work that doesn’t always reflect how you’re truly feeling inside. In Career Relaunch episode 69, Sophie Scott describes how she balances the work she does as both a psychotherapist and founder of Balance Media. We had a nice conversation about wearing different professional hats, managing your own wellbeing, and of course, maintaining balance in your life. I’ll also describe how those people who seem to have it all figured out in their careers may still struggling with their own issues. Key Career Insights The losses you experience in your life can be a huge tragedy but also a blessing that can inform the career choices you may that can provide the most meaning. It’s so important to connect with not only others but also with yourself. Use your purpose as your primary motivator to guide your decisions. All of us are still works-in-progress. Although it may seem like someone has the perfect life, earns an incredible income, or has everything figured out, the reality is that most of us are still trying to figure things out. Having several career changes is not unusual these days. If the idea of switching careers feels “weird” to you, consider thinking about your career as a series of chapters rather than as one continuous vocation. There’s incredible strength in being an adaptable generalist rather than a specialist because you’re able to connect the dots amongst disparate disciplines. When you’re burnt out, it’s not a good time to make a decision. Instead, it’s a time to rest, recuperate, and ask for support. Tweetables to Share I want to lead my best life and be as true to myself as possible because it can all be over quickly. Sophie Scott Tweet This Resources Mentioned Sophie mentioned that psychological projection and transference both have useful applications to understanding professional relationships in the workplace. Here’s a helpful article from Psychology Today about projection and another on transference. Sophie mentioned the Thought Diary app, which can help you manage your emotions and thoughts. Download it from the Google Play store and iOS app store. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of acknowledging to yourself that the struggles you’re going through may not have to do with a bad choice you’ve made, approach you’ve chosen, or talent you don’t possess. Instead, your career struggle may just be a very normal part of the situation you’re in, a struggle that many other people would also have if they were in a similar situation. Consider cutting yourself some slack and reminding yourself you’re doing your best with the resources and energy you have. That’s all you can do. But if you need a boost, or if you need support, to go ahead and take that step to ask for help. To ask for help from a friend, mentor, or professional who can help you sort through it. About Sophie Scott, Psychotherapist & Founder of Balance Media Sophie Scott is the Founder and Editor-in-chief of BALANCE, leading the award-winning, high growth media and lifestyle brand into the top tier of UK publications. She also regularly advises brands on go-to-market strategies and delivers wellness workshops for the likes of L’Oreal, Mediacom and Accenture. She’s coached and mentored at every level, from students to Fortune 500 CEOs, and has completed her 5-year training in Psychotherapy at the Centre for Counselling and Psychotherapy Education. Follow Sophie on Instagram and Balance on Instagram and Facebook. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Sophie know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): At one point, I really did reach burnout and ended up in a psychiatrist’s office. Wellness can be synonymous with needing to lead a perfect life and having everything sorted, but all of us are works in progress. Joseph: Good morning, Sophie. Good to talk with you again. Welcome to Career Relaunch. Sophie: Thanks so much, Joseph, for having me and for asking me to do this. Joseph: I know, having followed you on social media, that you have been very busy lately with a lot of different things in your life and your career. I was wondering if you could just start by telling me about what’s keeping you most busy in your career and your life recently. Sophie: Absolutely. I am the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of BALANCE, which is a UK based media and lifestyle brand, very much focused on wellness. Our mission is to make wellness accessible to mainstream audiences. We had our latest issue out last week and a series of events that we ran in conjunction with Fora, which is a big co-working space over in the UK. We had our wellness week. We had podcast lives. We did a podcast live event every Sunday. We did influencer breakfasts. We had events every day. It was lots of fun. The business is evolving. We’ve just brought on a CEO, which is quite a big step for us actually and something that I feel very excited about not just for the business and helping the business to scale up but also on a personal level, for me to now slightly be able to step back from running the business and focus more on the brand. I’ve also had my psychotherapy work as well that I juggle on a Tuesday. Joseph: You’re busy with the magazine. You also are running your own psychotherapy practice once a week. Just talking about the magazine briefly—and we’re going to come back to the magazine in a moment. I picked up my first copy of BALANCE in a hotel lobby in London, I remember, a couple of years ago, and it’s got a very cool lifestyle take on this idea of wellness—for those who are not familiar with BALANCE, can you just give a sampling of the types of topics you cover and the angle that you have the magazine take? Sophie: The first thing is that we are called BALANCE. We try not to be preachy in any way. None of us are perfect. Our philosophy is do your best, live well, live your life to the full. Everybody has to find their own sense of well-being. We cover mental health a lot, nutrition, workout plans, very much work-life balance, and travel as well, looking at sustainable travel and also spa destinations, guilt-free travel, combining new experiences with philanthropic endeavors. I suppose it’s all the main areas that you would see across any magazine. The difference is the lens that we look through. Joseph: Well, this is a show a little bit about wellness, and at the same time, it’s about career evolution and career change and trying to make career choices that allow you to have a life that is full of wellness and fulfillment. I know you haven’t always been a psychotherapist and the Founder of BALANCE Magazine. Can you take me back to the days when you were involved in the world of film? I’d love to hear a little bit about that chapter of your career, and then we can move forward and talk about your own career evolution and hear a little bit more about how you founded BALANCE, and also how started your own psychotherapy practice. Let’s start at the very beginning. Sophie: I’ve definitely not had a linear process, a linear journey. I think actually I’ve realize that that’s more normal than I thought. I started off and went to a pre-academic girls’ school and decided off my volition that I wanted to go to drama school, which I think they were none too pleased about. I took myself off there for a few years and actually went into the world of acting originally, which I suppose had been a childhood dream but also very much linked to my mom who I lost when I was a teenager. I think I was probably playing out something that she would have really wished for herself. I went to drama school, and I went into acting for a couple of years, but I actually soon realized that I didn’t derive so much fulfillment simply from performing. I felt a little bit like a kind of prop in many ways. What I really loved was actually writing scripts and screen plays, and I also loved editing them. My sister had setup a film production company called Fahrenheit Films, and I began working with her very, very closely in script development. I also was working freelance for different film companies in the UK and also spent some time over in the States. The film world is an incredible world, but it’s also a world of make-believe. Unless you have very good people around you, it can get you unstuck and you end up thinking that you’re going to have meetings that are going to change your life and things they promise to you, etc., and they don’t necessarily always follow through. That led me actually to deciding that I wanted a more grounded and psychological approach to things. I’ve decided to train and to do a foundation course in counselling and psychotherapy. I had also done quite a lot of coaching over the years, more so on the kind of presentation skills front. What I realized from that was that, regardless of your background and your situation, what people really wanted was someone to listen to them and fundamentally counsel them and help them to get over certain restrictions, barriers that they had in their own life that were kind of prohibiting their confidence. Anyway, I came back from Los Angeles and decided, ‘Okay, I want to train in counseling.’ I’ve completely fell in love with it and decided to on and do this full five-year training. Joseph: So you just walked from the original idea of becoming an actress or becoming a screen writer and came back here and pretty quickly pivoted into the world of counseling? Sophie: Certainly for the first year or so, I still very much had a foot in the film world. I was still working in script development. At that point, I was really enjoying my counseling training. I was starting to become quite inspired about the world of personal development. Actually, that’s when BALANCE started to slowly but surely take fruition in my mind. I wouldn’t say that there was a kind of clear stop. There wasn’t one definitive moment where I made the decision. I think, for a while, I was juggling to the best of my ability a couple of these different things. Through that process, I was able to make the best decision for my life. Joseph: I’ve been trying to figure out the best time to ask you about this, and this feels like the right moment to ask you about something that you eluded to briefly earlier. You said you lost your mother when you were a teenager. I think when we spoke before, you said at the age of 14. Before we get into your transition into becoming a psychotherapist and the rest of your career, I’d love to just take a moment and talk about that. I was wondering if you could take me back to the moment in your life when that happened and explain exactly how things played out at that moment for you. Sophie: As you said, I was 14. I was at this private, all-girls school. My mom had been ill on-and-off since I was very young, since I was five. She was diagnosed with cancer and went into remission for years. We knew that it was getting very serious. The cancer had moved into her liver and her bones, and we sort of, at that point, knew that it would be a matter of months, if not weeks. My sister, to whom I’m incredibly close, who is a decade older than me, said, ‘Just go and see a counselor.’ It ended up being a massively defining thing for me, because of course now, I’ve gone on to become a psychotherapist myself, but also the particular strain of psychotherapy which she practiced was the one that I’ve ended up pursuing, which is an integrative transpersonal psychosynthesis approach, very much looking at a person as whole, I suppose inspired by—what’s that roomy quote? The wound is where the light enters you. I suppose that’s been the basis of my own experience, as someone experiencing therapy but also giving therapy. Through that process, I was able to process the huge loss that I’d experienced, which I think never leaves you. It’s very much an on-going process. It also helped me to very much grow into the person that I am. Yes, I would say that losing my mom has been my greatest curse but also a blessing in so many ways, as strange as that may sound. Joseph: I know this must be tough, but can you describe in words exactly what impact losing your mother so early on in your life has had on your outlook and perspectives? Sophie: It may have taken away some of my fear. I would say, naturally, I can be quite an anxious person, but I never let that hold be back, in terms of the way that I lead my life. Actually, it’s made me take risks. I think a lot more than perhaps the next person. Also, without going into it too much, my mom, I think, wasn’t fulfilled in her life and her career. I have been very committed to living my purpose. Of course, that’s an on-going thing. That changes all the time. Your purpose isn’t fixed, but very much I’m having a kind of self-actualizing approach to life, which is that I want to lead my best life and be as true to myself as possible because it could all be over quick. Joseph: It must be so hard to lose somebody so important to you so early in life. At the same time, it must instill into you so much perspective that you just wouldn’t have otherwise, I guess, if you hadn’t gone through that. Thank you for sharing that. I’d like to go back to your career, because I think this does relate to another question I was going to ask you, which was how you ultimately decided to pursue a full career as a psychotherapist. It sounds like some of the seeds may have been planted from a very early age. Sophie: I think it’s important to say I don’t do it as a full-time career. My training and everything has taken a lot longer, and it took a lot longer than I would have hoped, because at the same time, I was setting up BALANCE. Joseph: Right, of course. No small feat. Sophie: I set a new field that it formed the basis of BALANCE. Although I wear very different hats between the different roles—and maybe that’s something that we can go onto in a bit—fundamentally, I think that they go hand in hand. I don’t terribly see one as starting and one as ending. I wouldn’t say that there was that definitive moment in my life where I thought, ‘Right, this is what I want to do.’ These days, I think it’s just quite normal not to just have one career or one job. Most of us have dual careers or even triad careers which give us a greater sense of balance and fulfillment. Perhaps that means that you don’t put all your eggs in one basket, at least not to begin with. Joseph: I’m very curious about this exact point that I think you’re making about what some people describe as a portfolio career or where you have multiple interests. How did these two worlds co-exist for you? Because I know you only see clients once a week, and you’re dedicating quite a bit of your time to running BALANCE. I’m just speculating, but I’d imagine that you have to show up very differently when you show up in front of a patient or client versus your team at BALANCE. Can you just explain how the two co-exist for you and how well that works for you? Sophie: I think it’s something I’m still navigating. I definitely don’t feel that I already have got the magic formula for that yet. Actually, it’s been a bit of a personal struggle at times for me, and it’s made me question my own boundaries and ethics around this. Certainly, the hat that you wear as a therapist when you’re with clients is different to the one that you wear especially with your team. I’m hoping that what it does give me is a genuine interest and capability and capacity to listen to people and really try and support team members when I know that they’re going through their own struggles. I can empathize. I have the ability to put myself in other people’s shoes quite easily. I think from that perspective, it’s been tremendously useful. Learning about certain theories and principles such as projection and transference has been very useful, because of course when you are a boss lady, so to speak, there are all sorts of projections that you get which is very different to, I think, when you’re just part of the team. I like to think of myself as just part of the team, but the reality is I think I’m seen as the Founder and the Director. That’s a difficult one, actually. It means that you have to make difficult decisions as well. How much you may wish to share with your team is a real question, and we try and be more transparent at BALANCE rather than less transparent. There does need to be a limit to that because you do bear the brunt of quite a lot of stress when you’re running something, and you can’t always let that show. In that way, I’ve learned some kind of really good skills. Being poker-faced, I suppose, from being a therapist and taking that into the world of business can be quite useful. Joseph: How much of some of the things that you do in therapy do you feel are also in line with the tips that you eventually share in your publication in BALANCE? Sophie: I would say very aligned actually. One of my greatest pleasures has been commissioning other therapists, psychologists, coaches that I really rate, that I personally kind of learned from by getting them to write for BALANCE. I suppose that’s what I mean when I say it’s really underpinned what BALANCE’s mission is. Absolutely, it’s a core part of what we write about. Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit more about BALANCE. I know that you’re spending quite a bit of your time on the magazine. Although it sounds like you’re now handing off some of the responsibilities that you’ve been in charge of. You’re doing some psychotherapy. You’re finding that some of the tools can be useful to a broader audience. How exactly did you go about creating the magazine? Because I’d imagine there are a lot of people out there who think they want to start a magazine, but it involves so many different things that probably aren’t so obvious on the surface. I’d just be interested to hear about the actual creation and the inception of the magazine. Sophie: I was, as I said, sort of benefiting from a lot of learnings at that time, a lot of theories, meeting amazing experts, and having really fascinating conversations. I thought, ‘Wow!’ I reckon a lot of people would be interested in this type of content, in being involved in this kind of conversations. Actually, where will they go to get such a thing? I remember there was a morning where I was going on to Tube. I was looking around me and thinking how different that world seems to the world that I had experienced the night before when I was at college and we were talking about psychology and the idea of awakening. On the Tube, people tend to look kind of really disconnected and really dead almost, like we’re boat sick. We can all fall into that, right? Joseph: Yeah, it’s miserable sometimes on the Tube. Sophie: I was looking, and I’m seeing what they were reading. The vast majority of people were reading some of the free newspapers that you get. A lot of the headlines are kind of really fear-mongering and I wouldn’t say a very positive affirmations for people. They definitely focus much more on the shadow and the dark side of the world as opposed to trying to give people a sense of hope or even a sense of perspective. I thought how amazing if what I’m learning and some of the experts that I’m speaking to could actually contribute to a publication of our own that was free, that was actually going to really be of value to people and may help them to connect not just one another but more so to themselves. I came up with this idea. Every June, we have a free newspaper. We’ll turn to the newspaper for London and brainstorm names. At the time, I knew somebody who was heavily involved in the distribution side of City AM, which is kind of London’s business newspaper, and basically managed to get pretty much free distribution across London outside the underground stations in these sorts of boxes. I don’t know if you’re familiar with those boxes. Joseph: Yeah, everybody, literally thousands of people, millions maybe of people are passing by those spots. Sophie: Yeah. Right. We had much smaller circulation at that time, but I felt very proud actually of the fact that I could see that the issues were going. I was getting a lot of very positive feedback from readers, but also from brands who were saying things like, ‘Oh, we love to be involved in this, but how big is your circulation? If you were to do it a bit bigger, we’d love to back you. We’d love to advertise.’ Actually, Planet Organic said, ‘We’d love to stock your magazine or newspaper. Let us know when it’s ready.’ I shopped the concept around and ended up going into business with a publishing house who had been around for 30 years or so, family-based publishing house. They’re still my business partners today. We re-launched it as a magazine, went out there on the hustle to get advertising because all of our revenue comes from brands and from sponsorship. Together with some investment from the publishing house, we managed to bankroll the first issue or so. Really from there on in, it’s been a case of building a brand, building a loyal customer base, and a team to serve that. It happened organically, but it was definitely part of my master plan as well. Joseph: That’s the business side of it. I’m also curious about what it’s been like for you to start your own magazine, having gone through all that hustle and reaching out to different people you knew and gaining the distribution. I’d be really interested to hear about the impact that this journey has had on your life as a whole. Sophie: It’s been, by large, very positive. I have got to live out a lot of dreams and fantasies that I’ve had. I feel tremendously proud of every time I, let’s say, get on the underground and see somebody reading a copy of BALANCE or people who come along to our events and tell us how much it means to them being part of a community of like-minded individuals. On the other hand, it’s been an incredible amount of hard work when you’re starting up from the bottom. I entered an industry that actually I hadn’t really been a part of in terms of publishing. I’d always been in the media, but more on the production side of things. I’ve had a lot of learning to do, and there’s definitely been a lot of needing to prove myself. I think that’s not just based being a newbie to the industry but also being a woman sadly and a youngish woman. Although I think I probably look younger than I am. There’s been quite a lot of needing to prove myself, which has been pretty challenging at times but has also given me a kind of fire in my belly. However, in terms of my own health and wellbeing, that’s definitely suffered at times, which I suppose is the ultimate irony. Joseph: I was going to ask you about that, because I feel like I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you about the challenges that you faced trying to balance it all, not only the psychotherapy practice with running a media company but also what I would imagine is the on-going hustle that is required whenever you’re trying to create and build something and scale it. Sophie: At one point, I really did reach burnout and ended up in a psychiatrist’s office in tears, begging him for help, anti-anxiety medication. I had some CBT therapy which really helped as well actually, because I’ve obviously been in a form of psychotherapy for years and years, which has worked perhaps on a much deeper level. I needed some tools day-to-day to help me navigate the kind of sheer busyness of my life and feeling slightly pulled from pillar to post. I think it is really important to talk about this, and especially as somebody who works in wellness. I think wellness can be synonymous with needing to lead a perfect life and having everything sorted, but that’s obviously far from the case. Actually, it’s people that are struggling and trying to fit lots in that actually really need to be honest and focus on their wellness, perhaps more than the next person. I’m quite passionate about focusing on mental health as a core tenet to wellbeing and saying, ‘Hey, the people on Instagram – those influencers, those wellness authors, they’re also just trying to figure things out. It’s just that maybe they have benefitted from certain training courses and education experiences in their life that give them the stature and the confidence to go out there and share what they’ve learned, but all of us are works in progress.’ Joseph: In the work that I do, I’ve actually found some similar theme, Sophie, where things are not always as they seem on the surface. On the surface, it may seem like, ‘Hey, BALANCE magazine, it’s taking off.’ Everybody’s heard about it. At the same time, there’s a lot of challenges that go on behind the scenes. I found that with a lot of people, it seems like they’ve got it all figured out, but actually if you dig a little bit, everybody’s got something going on that they may not be either very open about or just the people just don’t know about. Sophie: It always strikes me how many companies, whether they are startup, scaleups, or big, established companies behind closed doors, it’s kind of always a bit of a shit show. There are processes that aren’t as neatly tied up as they should be. There’s conflict there, conflicts of vision and purpose. I think that it’s really important that we can just be more honest about that and say that we’re all trying to do our best. I definitely think, though, that naivety can be a gift. I think particularly when people are starting a new career, you do often feel a bit like a fish out of the water. ‘I don’t know anything. I’m having to start from the bottom up.’ On the other hand, you are also not having to overcome years of preconceived ideas about an industry or about ways of working. I think that’s also really important to say that – that actually, you can build something much more in the vein of how you may want to build a career or a company, because you’re not coming at it with a lot of history. Joseph: That’s a great segue, Sophie, into a couple of the last things I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up here, which are just some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey. I think you just eluded to this, this naivete. I’m curious. What’s something that you didn’t think would be tough but has been tough about either running your own psychotherapy practice or starting your own magazine or balancing both? Sophie: I have toughened up. I’ve had toughened up quite a bit, and I think the process of getting there has been more difficult than I would have anticipated. In terms of letting people go when they’re not a cultural fit for the company or actually just in terms of the actual output, that’s been really tough to me, but it’s also been a tremendous learning. In terms of things that I wish I’d have known, I wish I’d have known that I wasn’t a freak for wanting to change careers, that I wasn’t alone and that actually, maybe 10 years ago, it was less usual, but these days, it’s very typical. I think they say that you should prepare yourself for four to five careers in your lifetime. Actually, if you think of your life in chunks as opposed to as a whole, it certainly makes it less stressful. That’s very much something that I try to do these days. Joseph: What about when you think back to your own life journey of losing your mother early on to the struggling with anxiety at moments to eventually becoming a psychotherapist yourself and ultimately becoming a media entrepreneur, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself along the way? Sophie: I have learned that I’m a lot more resilient than I realize but also that I’m a lot more flexible and open. I think that flexibility is really key. I always say I’m a generalist rather than a specialist, but actually there’s tremendous strength in that, in having those transferable skills and being able to spot opportunities, join dots. I’d say being a quick learner and being flexible and being adaptable. I think that that probably does go right back to losing my mom and having to adapt to no longer being part of a 2.4 family, which I was really for the first 14 year of my life. As eccentric as my family was, it was relatively conventional at the same time. I’ve proven my adaptability to myself. I can’t stress enough how important I actually do think that is as a skill. When we hire people, that’s something that I really look out for, because obviously in a startup, you don’t just do one role. There’s often all hands on deck. You have to be flexible, willing to learn, throw yourself in on something new. We’ve got to keep going, working things out, being flexible, changing with the times, changing with our evolving needs, because we’re not fixed entities. It’s just about making that promise to yourself that actually I’m going to keep using purpose as my primary motivator and checking in if at any point that gets lost. Joseph: That’s a great tip, just to keep that as your North Star and your compass when you’re dealing with some tough times. I guess last question for you—because I know you’ve eluded to this a couple of times, Sophie. It was on this topic of burnout. I know that you mentioned you went through a period where you were feeling some burnout—what do you feel was one of the most important steps that you took to manage that more effectively? Sophie: I know it sounds really silly, but I went on holiday at that point. I ended up when I could only go where I think it was for a week. I literally just disappeared. One of my favorite lines is ‘When you’re tired, learn to rest, not to quit.’ I would say that’s been a massive learning for me. When you are burnt out, it’s probably not a time to make a decision. It’s a time to stop and to ask for support. I’m lucky I have a fantastic support network around me. I would really encourage people to go to their GP before it’s too late. Spot the warning signs as well, things like headaches, aches and pains, struggling with sleep, blurred vision, all of these, loss of appetite, all of these things are just to check in with yourself and notice that, and then take action. Tell a friend. Tell your GP. If you can, get some help. Get some therapy. There are also plenty of amazing tools out there that are free. I use things like Thought Diary as an app, which basically is a CBT-based app. It helps you to work through your problem yourself, gain perspective, and help you with any core beliefs that may be limiting you at that point. I’d say the main thing is take some time out and don’t make any quick decisions. Joseph: If people want to learn more about you, Sophie, or BALANCE Magazine or even uncover some tools that you just mentioned to maintain a good balance and wellness in their own lives, where can they go to learn more? Sophie: You can go to our website which is www.BALANCE.media. Also, please follow us across social, @balanceldn, at BALANCE London. If you want to personally follow me, although I’m not as good at posting on my own personal channels as across BALANCE is, but it’s @sophie.b.scott. Hopefully, you can find some of our content really valuable and insightful. Joseph: Thank you so much, Sophie, for telling us more about your life a psychotherapist and magazine founder and sharing your personal story with us, and most of all, talking about how you maintained balance in your own life and career. Best of luck with BALANCE, your psychotherapy practice, and everything else you have going on in your life. Thank you so much for being on the show. Sophie: Thank you so much, Joseph.

Career pivots often involve shifting into an industry or role you know little about, which can make the move that much more daunting. In episode 68 of Career Relaunch, Pip Murray, a former science museum producer turned founder of Pip & Nut, shares her thoughts on what it takes to start your own company, how to build your confidence during transitions, and why taking action is so important to turn your ideas into reality. During the Mental Fuel segment, I also share some thoughts about how to do something you have no idea HOW to do. Key Career Insights You don’t need to quit your job the moment you decide it’s time to move on. The decision simply shapes how you approach the upcoming months or even years until you’re ready to make the leap. At some point, you have to cut the cord and turn your side hustle into your full-time job if you want to really give it the attention it deserves. You absolutely can learn anything you need to know in order have a shot of cracking into a new industry if you devote yourself to educating yourself, connecting with the right people, and filling your knowledge gaps. When you’re trying to test out a new idea, err on the side of doing. Otherwise, your idea will always be an idea. Getting where you want to go involves a series of improvements as you test out various approaches. Tweetable Start doing. Otherwise, your idea will always just be an idea. Pip Murray Tweet This Listener Challenge My challenge to you, especially if you feel like there’s no way you can do something or you feel like you don’t have the skills, experience, or knowledge to pursue some idea that you would actually find very gratifying, is to sit down, and take an honest inventory of what it would take for you to get yourself to a place where you DID feel comfortable giving it a shot. It could be a knowledge gap you would need to fill so you can go into the process well-informed, or some specific questions you need to answer, or a set of skills you would need to acquire. Capture exactly what those knowledge gaps, unanswered questions, or missing skills are. Then, take action to address at least one. For example: Reach out to your network, maybe on LinkedIn or Facebook, to see if anyone knows someone who could shed some light on your questions. Enroll in a course that allows you to upskill or learn a missing skill Or even just Google the question you need answered to see what you can uncover on your own online. I really believe you can be incredibly resourceful when you care enough about an idea you want to pursue. With enough tenacity, you’ll get yourself to a place where you can go for it, knowing that you’ve done the groundwork to give yourself the best shot of succeeding. About Pip Murray, Founder of Pip & Nut Pip Murray is the Founder of the nut butter brand Pip & Nut, which offers a range of eight naturally nutritious nut butters. A keen marathon runner and a fierce foodie, Pip had the inspiration for the brand when she couldn’t find a delicious but nutritious protein source to fuel her training. Taking matters into her own hands, she set about creating her own brand and starting on her Pip & Nut journey. So far it’s encompassed everything from market trading and crowdfunding to national supermarket launches and international expansion. She’s received a host of industry accolades: In January 2019, Pip won ‘Start-Up Entrepreneur of the Year’ at the Natwest Great British Entrepreneur Awards In 2018 Pip was named a Forbes 30 under 30 Europe in 2018 and a Management Today’s 30 under 30 She was Young Entrepreneur of the Year at the Startups.co.uk ’s 2017 Awards She was also awarded ‘Young Achiever of the Year’ at the The First Women Awards 2016, was named as a winner in The Grocer’s Top New Talent Awards for 2016 and in December 2016 picked up the ‘Artemis Award’ for the most inspirational woman running a business trading for a minimum of 18 months up to 3 years at the Natwest Everywoman awards. All of Pip & Nut’s products are 100% natural, with absolutely no refined sugars, additives or palm oil. Now four years old, Pip & Nut can be found in 5 international markets and over 5,500 stores around the UK and Europe. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Pip know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Particularly when you’re going into something new, there’s a weird tipping point where you suddenly start understanding all these things, and you start to be able to say and speak with confidence. It’s actually a really satisfying process to go through. It’s this real learning curve. Joseph: Good morning, Pip, and welcome to Career Relaunch. It’s great to have you on the show. Pip: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure. Joseph: I’d love to kick off by just having you tell us what is keeping you busy right now in your work and also the rest of your life. Pip: So busy at the moment. At work, we’re actually doing a pretty large funding round which I hope we’re going to close in the next 12 months. I’ve got a lot of new products coming out this year, both within our existing catch bin that we are currently within, which is obviously nut butter and peanut butter. I think it’s six different product launches over the course of the next year, so that’s a really big one for us – a big campaign that we’re planning in September, but all of the hard work happens right now. A lot of plates are being spun at the moment. Joseph: What about the rest of your life, what’s keeping you busy right now in the rest of your life? Pip: This is always the challenge with having a startup, isn’t it? It’s like we focus so much on the business, and the rest of your life suddenly sometimes falls by the wayside. I’m currently moving house actually, which I’m meant to be out house-hunting to find a new place. That’s going to keep me busy, but I’m also going away this weekend for a long weekend, going camping to the Scilly Isles – some fun on the horizon, which is cool. Joseph: Very cool. We are going to talk a little bit more about Pip & Nut. I do want to come back to that. I would like to focus most of our conversation on your historical career before you were at Pip & Nut and also your time at Pip & Nut. Before we do that, as an American, I’m always looking for a good peanut butter here in the UK, and I, for many years, really struggled to find a good one here. Then I spotted Pip & Nut I think in the whole foods, and I immediately became a fan. What do you think people should look for when they’re trying to find a good peanut butter? Pip: For me, it’s all about if it’s natural or not. We don’t put any palm oil in any of our products. It does mean that we get some oil separation on the top of our products, but I actually always think of that as a really great thing. It shows that the product is totally natural. There’s no additives within the products or any palm oil. That’s something that I always look out for. Obviously, I only eat my own. The less ingredients on the back of the packaging, the better. Use the best quality peanuts and almonds that you can get your hands on, because really, when you’ve only got few ingredients, they make such a difference. Joseph: One of the things I love about your product is it tastes great and that you also don’t use palm oils. It’s actually really hard to find a peanut butter that doesn’t have palm oils. I think it’s great you’re doing what you’re doing. I also love the range of your flavors. I think I tried your maple nut one. That was the first one I tried, which is very tasty. We’re going to come back and talk about your journey as an entrepreneur and the Founder of Pip & Nut, but before you were doing this, you were in a very different line of work. Can you tell me about your time as a Producer for the Science Museum in London? Then we’ll move forward from there. Pip: I studied anthropology at university, which is not very useful for what I do right now. When I was leaving the university, I always assumed that I’d work within the creative sector. I’d always been interested by museums and material culture, which is a big part of what anthropology is about. When I left university, I started pursuing career within the creative arts, worked at various different art centers across London, and eventually went to the Science Museum where I worked as a theater producer or an assistant theater producer before I started up the brand. I guess what that role is it’s essentially helping pull together large theater shows in the Science Museum, in particular focused on children theater. You’re working with creatives, as well as technical production, whether it’s lighting and sound producers, as well as obviously the directors themselves and the actors. You’re basically the one to help facilitate and coordinate the whole show. It’s a really, really interesting job, Probably, I’m of those people that I didn’t actually really hate my job at all, and I thought the career path that I was one was actually pretty interesting and potentially exciting one, so going to start up my own business and moving to a completely new sector, away from more public, creative sector was actually quite a big shift but also something that I wasn’t necessarily pushed. It was certainly a choice and wasn’t necessarily in my initial thinking when I was growing up that I would run my own business. Joseph: That’s really interesting, because I think some of the founders that we’ve got on this show, many of them actually say that they never had the intention to start their own business. It was the idea that pulled them toward starting their own business. How did you move from theatre production into creating your own peanut butter? Pip: I actually vividly remember the day that I handed in my notice at the Science Museum. My boss at the time looked at me as if I was crazy because it’s so random and so different that I think he thought I was going absolutely loopy. I think it takes a long time. I think you don’t quit your job on the first day that you come up with the idea. The idea forming in my brain took me about two years or a year and a half before I actually fully quit my job. I think that, also, it was partly down to the fact that I had never worked in this sector before. I really, really didn’t know what I was doing. I knew that I needed to get a little more validation for both the product itself that I was forming in my brain and started to create in my kitchen but also need to validate whether or not I actually like the idea of running my own business. Did I enjoy the process of creating a product? I think that’s one of those things that takes time. I think the key steps, when you are looking at starting your own business and specifically a food one, firstly, you have to develop the recipes. I bought posh, fancy blender and made the products in my kitchen. I’d make 200 at a time, and I’d take those products to a market down in South London. I’d actually road test them on people to see whether or not they liked it. Hopefully, they liked it enough to buy it. That was my validation. That was my way of sense checking whether or not what I was creating was something that people wanted, and it also helped me in getting some direct feedback. It think that’s something so brutal about selling something to someone on the market: people will instantly love it, or they’ll instantly hate it. I think you could quite quickly understand whether or not you’re onto something. Once you got that sense check and you’ve tweaked and refined and improve on your product, that was when I was like, ‘Yeah, I think I want to scale this up.’ That’s a whole new set of challenges that you face when you scale something up. Joseph: How did you decide on peanut butter? Of all the different things that you could invest your time in, I guess you’re pretty busy with your day job, how did you decide that you wanted to devote all of your energies to this particular food product? Pip: I’d always been interested in the food sector. I’ve lived in London for 12 years now, and it is such a hot bed for amazing food trends. They’ve got a great food scene with all the food trucks that are popping up all around London. I’d browsed the shelves of whole foods myself as I shop, and I was, like ‘Oh my god, there are just so many great products on the shelves and so many more emerging.’ I think I first was interested in this sector, and I thought there’s an option here where you can be both creative and also have a product that actual does people good. I thought that was really exciting. I’ve landed on nut butter and peanut butter partly because I am a proper peanut butter addict. I still eat it every single day, not a lie. I love it, if not two or three times a day. It really came from a love of the product. I was doing a lot of training at the time. I’m doing some marathons, and for me, nut butter on toast or in my porridge, wherever it was, it was my go-to, post-run treat. I just thought this product is brilliant. It not only tastes unbelievably good, and it’s so addictive. This is also filled with nuts and really wholesome ingredients. It’s not often you get a health food product that actually delivers on flavor as well as functional benefits, like protein and healthy fats and things like that. The thing that started to actually make me see the gap in the market was that nearly every product that I bought in supermarkets contain palm oil, like I mentioned. In a food product perspective, there was really only just peanut butter on the market. I was like, ‘You know, there are things like almond butters and cashew butters. The products themselves take flavor really brilliantly, the coconut almond butter was one of our first products that I developed. It’s just a really great flavor combo, and I felt like there wasn’t really a brand taking hold of that. I just really love the fact that this space in the supermarket, which is a bit traditional, a bit tired, hadn’t really seen a brand enter into this space in the past 30 years, which is so open for an innovative brand to come in. It was all those things that started to come together that I was like, ‘You know what? I think there’s definitely a gap here, and there’s definitely a growing trend with protein and fats and things like that being good for you,’ that I think this could be a business. Joseph: You also mentioned the two-year transition. Before we talk about how you turned this into a business, I’d be really curious if you could give us a glimpse into what the transition was like, balancing your day job with trying to get this idea and eventual business off the ground. What was that like for you? Pip: I always say that the setup phase, the startup phase is actually one of the hardest. It’s the most isolating and lonely part for the whole journey, I think. What I used to find so frustrating about it was that you are so reliant on other people getting back to you. Lots of businesses up and running, you can run a million miles an hour. It’s you’re prerogative to get things out there and start selling and driving the brand forward, but when you’re setting things up, you’re reliant on other people to unlock doors so that you can launch the brand. That, I found really frustrating. I guess in those early days I was working, I went part-time with my job. Once I tested the products at markets, I decided to give myself some more time and space to able to develop the products properly and really setup the supply chain and things like that. You end up being a bit Jekyll and Hyde during your work week. You go and do your normal job, do your 9:00 till 5:00, and then outside of these hours, you’re squirreling away on your laptop, trying to figure out which supplier of labels do you want to have and how you’re going to develop brand. Because they’re so different, it can feel like you’re two different people really. It’s always really hard when you’re setting something up, because you don’t really understand what it is you’re trying to create until something becomes an actual tangible product that is sold in supermarkets. For a lot of the time, you’re having to do a lot of proving yourself and explaining to people what it is that you’re doing. Whilst it’s exciting because they’ll see you’re developing a product, and it’s the first time that maybe you’re working, that I personally was working independently without any structure to my day at work – three days at the museum, and then the rest of the time, I’d work on the business. The rest of the four days would be on the business. That was really cool and exciting and freeing in lots of ways. In other ways, you’re finding yourself having to understand how to go and stretch you back into your day and still a bit unsure whether or not it’s going to work. There’s a lot of anxiety there that sits around. You’d have these highs and low moments. You’d get to break through on a factory as an example. You’d find a factory that can make your products. It feels unbelievably high because it’s a big thing, I feel, in creating your product to have a good supplier. The next day, something else will go wrong. It’s these real swings that you’d find. You’d go for a week or two without nothing really moving because you’re waiting on some information from someone. Tough period, and I feel for people that are in that stage where it’s one of those things you have to hold on to your vision for the brand and the idea that it will come to life at some point or another. Yes, a fair bit of resilience is needed at that particular point. Joseph: Let’s shift gears here then, Pip, and talk a little bit more about how you turned this into a business and how you scaled it. At what point did you decide you wanted to devote yourself fully to Pip & Nut? Pip: At the point I developed the brand, the brand, the look and feel of the product and packaging was there. I’d sourced the factory, and I started to finish. I was almost there with developing the products themselves. At that particular point where I went full-time on the business, I was searching for funding. I was doing lots of pitching to different angel investors. The weird tangent I had towards that, I entered a competition actually. It was run by a startup company themselves who were doing a bit of a PR campaign. The whole campaign was based around giving a startup a leg up and offering free accommodation and free desk space for three months. I entered on a bit of a whim. The catch for this whole competition was that it was to live rent-free but in a garden shed in the back garden of their headquarters. I entered on a fleet whim, not expecting to win this at all and ended up winning the competition. I remember getting a call from one of the co-founders of this company saying like, ‘Pip, you’ve won the competition. You’re going to move into the garden shed.’ It’d been a moment of like elation, because I was like, ‘Oh, that’s great. I can quit my job. I don’t have any overheads I had to worry about. I could focus on the business completely,’ but then a bit of fear, because I was like, ‘Oh my god, I’m going to have to live in the garden and be like a feral animal in the back garden.’ If anything, what that competition did to me—and I guess it’s what a lot of people do. They might move in with their parents, but for me, I moved into a shed for the summer—was just gave me really low overheads. It extended my runway for a period of time but also allowed me to completely focus 100% on the business. I think it’s a really important step that, at some point, you do have to cut the cost. You do almost have to make this your primary job and less of a side hustle. I actually did a crowd funding campaign on Crowdcube—it’s sort of an equity crowdfunding site—and raised ₤120,000, which I completed at the end of the summer, which then allowed me to go continue work full-time on the business, move back into normal accommodation, and get a desk space and a co-working space. Joseph: I’m listening to this, Pip, and this is a very impressive story. At the same time, I’m listening to this and thinking about other listeners out there who maybe don’t have a background in business, but they’ve got an idea that they’re tinkering with, and they’re thinking about how to turn it into a full-fledged business. You were a museum producer before. You mentioned you had a background in the arts. How did you manage to figure out the commercial aspects of starting and running your own business? You mentioned pitching, finding a supplier. You mentioned crowd funding. How did you figure out how to do all this? Pip: I was a complete and utter novice when it came to business, whereas now I love it and actually, it’s probably the element I really enjoy: actually the slightly more commercial parts of the business. For anyone that’s out there that’s thinking, ‘God, I don’t think I can do it because I don’t know how to do finance or I don’t know what model I need to be working to,’ neither did I. I totally fresh-faced it all. The main thing that you can do to try and upscale yourself is, firstly, shrug off any perception that you can’t do it. Just get over that as soon as you possibly can because you’re going to have to, and there’s no question about it. Secondly, it’s about then reaching to people that you know and any contacts that you potentially have within the sector that you’re about to enter into. There are a number of brands I loved. I had a few friends also that worked in the industry. I remember trying to get them to connect me with people that could help. There is a time and a place for consultants as well within any business. For me, I worked with a finance consultant so that I could get to grips with what the model was and what margins I needed to make, what margins other people needed to make and all those really important things that you need to ensure that you’ve got the right structure, financial structure within the business. Some things I think you definitely need to try and get expertise, and you might, at some point, have to pay some consultancy fees in order to get a proper models and access to information. So much of it you can also get through just learning. I think listening to podcasts like this is one really good way of starting to absorb things that you need to know. Going to trade events and speaking to people. Going to speaking events where people are talking about the same thing, and trying to grab people at the end of when they’re doing their talks or whatever and seeing if you can get their email address and go for coffee and then pick their brain. People do share information quite openly. Whether that’s a contact name for Selfridges buyer to what margin they make at a certain retail, most people are fairly open with this sort of information. It’s a gradual process. I think you just need to take it step by step, particularly when you’re going into something new. There’s a weird tipping point when you suddenly start understanding all these things and you start to be able to say and speak with confidence. It’s actually a really satisfying process to go through. It’s this real learning curve, but then you come out the other end, and you’re like, ‘Wow, I actually have a good grip on what this industry is all about.’ I think it’s all about learning on the job. I’m a big believer that you can teach yourself anything that you need to know. As soon as you possibly can, hire people that can improve on the things that you started. Joseph: Very good advice. I know your brand’s known for its Nut Butter, Pip. Can we talk for a second about the almond drinks? Pip: Yeah. Joseph: I first spotted your almond drinks in Holland and Barrett. I actually liked them a lot. For those of the listeners out there who are not familiar with Holland and Barrett, it’s a very well-known health foods retailer in the UK. I understand that the drinks aren’t necessarily a product line that you’re focused as much on. Can you describe how you thought through whether or not to continue investing into this sub line of your products? I guess what’s behind my question is that, if anyone out there is listening to this and if ever they started anything of their own and you’ve invested all your energy into something to get it off the ground, it can be hard to know when to let go of that idea and when to move on. How did you think through whether or not to keep pushing this sub line of products? Pip: We have actually pulled them out of the market now. It was a really tough decision. I developed those products and had such relief that they could work and that they’d be a big part of our business going forward. When it comes to products and when you launch them, you know very quickly within the first six months whether or not they’re going to really work. Consumers will tell you very quickly whether or not they’re something that will continue to prosper. I think some of the things that we noticed, for instance, was that even when we’re doing samplings—and so we loads and loads of samplings across our different stores to get people to try our products—the reaction to our almond milk versus what people were like when they tried our nut butters was just so unbelievably different. People were less excited about them. They dropped and not go about for a second sample, all these really soft measures that you start to clock that you’re like, ‘I’m not sure if this is quite right.’ As well for us, we noticed that there are a lot of brands entering that space. When I initially started developing them, there’s still a lot of white space within this particular category. By the time that I’ve finished developing them—it took about a year and a half to develop—it was really crowded. The catch bin itself wasn’t growing as it was two years prior to that. All these market conditions as well, I was saying, ‘You know what? This is going to be really tough to get this going.’ There were things that we wanted to tweak and change about the products. In the end, I think we decided that it’d be best to focus our energy and our resources and our finances on driving our core bit of our business forward, which is obviously our peanut butters, and really become number one in that sector rather than trying to diversify too soon. I think it was one of those really hard lessons to learn, but I actually learnt a lot about how important it is to look after what you currently got rather than necessarily feeling that you need to expand really quickly across all these different areas. Joseph: That’s a great tip. I think that there’s always this temptation to spread yourself a little bit too thin, no pun intended. It can be hard to know where to focus your energies. Very interesting. The last thing I want to talk about, Pip, before we wrap up are just a few of the lessons you’ve learned after shifting from being an employee to a food brand founder. You and I first crossed paths, because we both spoke at the marketing academy foundation event at Facebook in London earlier this year. One of the things I heard you say on your panel that you eluded to earlier today was that there are very high highs and very low lows when you’re an entrepreneur. Why do you think that is? Pip: I think it’s because you just care so much. You are so invested in the brand both in doing well and also financially as well. It’s your livelihood. I think for me, I have really big ambitions and really high standards to where I think the brand could go, and so when things don’t quite go to plan, you really feel it. Things that don’t go quite to plan are often felt more within small businesses, because whether you, for instance, don’t win a customer that you’re expecting to win, that probably is more meaningful for you as a small business owner in terms of financially than it probably is for a larger business that can switch focus onto a different customer as an example and fill the gaps. I do think it’s predominantly because you’re emotionally connected to the brand. It’s always like your baby, isn’t it? It’s like something that you’ve nurtured from an early age that you know intrinsically, and therefore if something isn’t quite right, you feel it. I would say that overtime, you stop reacting so much to everything and anything. I feel like now, I’m much more levelheaded. Yes, there will be days which get me down or that I’ll find tough, but I won’t react to it in such an explosive way than probably I did in the first year or two. I think that’s almost because you start to realize what a real problem is versus one that’s just a bit of a hiccup. That’s just something that you build a level of resilience and a level of understanding about as the business grows. Having said that, the high is when things are going incredibly well. You’re flying. There’s just no better feeling. There’s such joy in the fact that particular products that you had in your head five years ago is now stocked. Pip & Nut is stocked in about 5,000 stores around the UK, and it’s eaten by thousands of people every day for breakfast – those sorts of feelings. When you hear great feedback from people, it’s just so rewarding, particularly when your product is also doing people good. It’s good for people. That’s even better. It’s one of the blessings and the curses of running your own business. It’s like a job, but it really isn’t. It’s so much more than that. It’s not just a clock-in, clock-out kind of attitude that you take. You really care. Joseph: Something else you said on the panel, Pip, was that it’s important to put something out there, even if it’s not 100% finished. What did you mean by that, and why is that so important? Pip: When you’re starting something up, when you’re really at that early stage, you can get a little bit preoccupied on making sure or comparing yourself to businesses that are maybe 5 or 10 years old. Actually sometimes, it’s a case that you need to get the product out in the market and test it. There are certain things that probably you can compromise. For instance, you maybe didn’t quite get the packaging supplier that you wanted, or there are things that you’d like to improve, but I think when it comes to product, try and get it as good as you possibly can do, but I think always be aware that a product can always be improved. Certainly, when you’re just trying to test something, you get a feel for whether or not something is going to resonate with shoppers. I think it’s quite important to start doing. Otherwise, your idea will just always be an idea. If you just keep thinking about it, nothing is going to move forwards. If you test it on a really low level, basic way, that is a really good way to start the ball moving and give yourself some confidence to then really go for it. Otherwise, you’ll feel like there’s this huge gulf that you have to jump over in order to launch the brand, when in actual facts, it’s a series of small improvements that get you to where you need to go. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense I think, especially for the perfectionists out there, and I include myself in that group. We have this tendency of wanting to get everything exactly right before we take action on it or to put it out there for people to see. In the meantime, if you’re not learning anything about it, you’re probably going to change it again anyway, even if you’ve launch the version that you think is perfect. A series of small steps makes a lot of sense. Finally, is there anything is particular that surprised you about shifting from working in a museum to running your own food brand and company? Pip: I think the thing that I never ever really thought about was the fact that if everything goes well, which it’s gone pretty well so far, that you’ll end up leading a team, which seems like a really funny thing to say. You focus so much on the product and what the brand looks like, but for me personally, the fact that there’s 14 of us in the team at the moment—it’s still quite small but growing quite fast—suddenly you find yourself in a completely different role in your own right. You’re a leader within the team. You’re there to help shape the culture and nurture and encourage the people within the business to prosper. Actually for me, I was 24 at the time I started out the business. I’ve never managed anyone. I’ve never really led anything. I’ve never been fully and totally responsible for something. Now, I find myself in a really different kind of job. That’s a whole new skillset which I’ve had to learn and actually has probably been hard. It’s been a really hard part of the journey: figuring out how to be a leader and how to be clear and give direction to a team of people who are all taking a big risk to work for the business. I think that actually came as a bit of a shock. It is a bit of a realization when you’ve launched. You’re like, ‘All right.’ Once the team starts to grow, you realize that you’ve got a whole new job that you never really thought about. Joseph: Let’s wrap up with what’s next for Pip & Nut then, Pip. Can you tell me a little bit more about the new range of products you have coming out? Pip: Yes. We are launching a range of snacking products in the autumn. Joseph: Oh, cool. Pip: We’ll have nut butter ripple through everything that we’re doing. Joseph: I’m excited. Pip: We’ve got some tasty things coming out. We’re also doing, like I mentioned, a big campaign in September. That’s something where for the first time ever as a brand, we’ll start to go above the line in terms of our advertising. That’s a really big moment for the team. Joseph: Wow, very exciting. I hope the brand launch goes well and then your product launch goes well. Where can people go to learn more about your products and also buy your nut butters? Pip: Head to our Instagram. It probably shows you the best array of delicious pictures about what to do with nut butters. That’s @pipandnut. If you want to go and buy our products, for those in the UK, you can find them in Sainsbury’s, Tesco, at the Morrisons. For those of you not in the UK, you can go onto Amazon or even onto our own website at PipAndNut.com. Joseph: Thank you so much, Pip, for telling us more about your life as an entrepreneur, the importance of focus, and also the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career journey. I am going to continue to enjoy your peanut butters, and I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your new launch this fall. Thanks so much for being on the show. Pip: Thank you so much.

Making a career transition always seems to take longer than you initially expect. It’s hard to know exactly how long you should give yourself to make the progress you want. In this week’s episode of Career Relaunch, legal secretary turned yoga studio founder and instructor Lola Scarborough describes how grit and determination ultimately allowed her to get her yoga studio off the ground. We discuss the downside of having a job that’s too comfortable and what you learn about yourself when you’re forced to make a sudden career pivot. During the Mental Fuel segment, I’ll also share my own personal experience with my own career transitions taking longer than I wanted. Key Career Insights The comforts of a stable, corporate job can often lead you to stop asking yourself tough questions about what you truly want from your career and life. When you make tough changes, you discover both things you like and things you may dislike about yourself. Discovering who you really are comes from a place of discomfort, which is exactly what a career pivot forces upon you. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I challenged you to take a step back, reevaluate whether you’re being realistic with the timeline you’ve given yourself for a specific career transition or project you’re hoping to complete in the near future. Then build in a little extra buffer. And if you don’t get as far as you want as quickly as you want, just remember not to beat yourself up too much because it’s not unusual for things to take a little longer you than you initially expect. About Lola Scarborough, Yoga studio founder and author Lola Scarborough is an IKYTA and Yoga Alliance E-RYT-500 certified yoga teacher and a co-owner and Managing Director of Yoga Lola Studios. Lola is a certified life coach, a certified Wellness & Health Restoration Natural Foods Consultant, a certified tonic herbalist, a certified Ayurvedic Practitioner, a certified aerobics teacher, a certified Level III Reiki master and a novice astrologer. She teaches Kundalini Yoga along with many other types of yoga. She has a long history as a writer, teacher, and project manager in the business world. She’s authored articles, films, and videos related to yoga, health, and healing. She published her first book on natural breast health Fighting for Our Tits: A Woman’s Battle Cry in July 2018. She’s also completed her Ph.D. in comparative religion and published a book of poetry titled Molten Woman. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Lola know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Fear and money kept driving me to go every day into a job where a lot of times I was exhausted. I was stressed out. I took a deep dive into what motivates me, what do I want. Joseph: Good morning, Lola. Welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Lola: Thank you, Joseph. I’m delighted to be here. Joseph: We are going to talk about a few different things today, including your former life before you started your yoga studio, your transition, and also how you’ve now become a yoga instructor. I’d like to start by having you, first of all, just tell me what you’ve been focused right now in your career and your life. Lola: I’ve continued to stay focused on building my yoga studio and wellness business. Most recently, I released a book, and I am going to be featured in an upcoming book as well called The World’s Most Amazing Women that’s going to be released in December. One of the things I’m doing now is working to grow out my speaking skills. I love to lecture. I love a captive audience. It’s my very favorite thing. I’ve been working on that and working on raising awareness around different health-related issues through doing blogging and other things like that. Joseph: I know that we’ve got a couple of different topics to talk about today, and I want to come back to your studio. I do want to go back in time and talk about what you were up to before you were a yoga instructor, because I know you haven’t always been a yoga instructor. Before we get to that, how did you get discovered to be featured in that book, The World’s Most Amazing Women? Lola: I started doing some podcast radio interviews with KC Armstrong, and he invited nine women that he felt had stories that were significant, meaningful, and lifechanging for his readers. He invited me to be one of the lead writers in his book. Joseph: Okay, very cool. I’m looking forward to seeing you featured there. Can we go back in time, Lola, and talk about what you were up to before you were involved with yoga? What were you doing in your former life when you were working in the corporate world? Let’s start from the beginning, and then we can move forward from there. Lola: When I was 17 years old, I graduated from the Atlanta College of Medical, Dental, and Business. I spent roughly 20 years of my career as a legal secretary. I loved it. I loved the legal field. I actually thought about entering it but then decided to have children instead. As a part of that, towards the latter end of my career, we made a huge transition. I’m 59, so I’ve seen software come of age from MS DOS to MS Word. Because I picked up on those sorts of things easily, I became a lead trainer, and then became a lead writer for our training materials. I did that for quite a long time, and I loved doing that too. From there, I segued over into becoming a full-time technical writer. I worked with Capgemini, Axon, a software company called SBPA Systems. I did that for, I guess, another 15 years. From there, I went into project management. That was my last role in the business world, where I lead project teams of up to 10 and 15 people. I worked with companies as big as Burger King and Vanguard and some others and doing software implementations for their administrative systems. That’s where I was when my career shifted. Joseph: You’ve already mentioned a couple of career shift. I know we want to cover the major ones, shifting toward being a yoga instructor. I do want to go back a little bit here because you’ve mentioned a couple of major shifts, from being a legal secretary to a technical writer, and then a technical writer to a project manager. Let’s just take the lattermost recent transition from being a technical writer to a project manager. How did you manage to make that sort of a transition? Because at least on the surface, it seems like those would be two very different things. Lola: They really were, and I wasn’t really fully prepared for what happens when you’re a project manager. I met a man, and I married him. I moved from where I was. I moved myself and my children from Stafford, Texas to League City, Texas, which is where I’m at now. I went in, and I interviewed. She really liked my style, because I’d held lead positions. As a technical writer, I managed teams. I was already used to being in leadership positions. Being a project manager, I’d put out my begging bowl before I do that again. Joseph: What did you dislike about being a project manager? Lola: The 22-hour days and implementations not going right, clients very understandably being very distressed because their systems were down. People would quit because it was such a stressful situation, then you’d find yourself with a deficit of personnel. It was a small company, so one person leaving would have a major impact on the ability to get the project to fruition. The pay was awesome, but it was a lot of stress. Joseph: Can you take me to the moment when you made the decision to leave that behind? What was happening for you at that time? Lola: I’m a very security-oriented person. I always told people, they say, ‘Don’t you want to start your own business?’ I’m like, ‘No, not until after I retire.’ I kind of got kicked out. I had opened my yoga studio. I came through when we were in the acute stage of a recession in this area. Joseph: That was in 2008. Is that correct? Lola: Yeah. I had a friend who was coming. I let her use my yoga studio, which by the way, only had one student because the yoga studio was to be a retirement dream. I would only really be working hard six years from now had things gone along as intended. I had opened it up, and she had a magazine. She said, ‘Well, if you’d let me use your studio for my group, I’ll run a free ad for you.’ I said, ‘Awesome.’ Before I even opened the studio and put a web presence out, I talked to my manager, and I talked to the other co-owner of the business. I said, ‘Listen. This is what I’m doing. This is really just to place on paper. It’s a retirement dream. We’re going to be working on it for years. Is it okay if I do this?’ They said yes. I had not spoken to the big boss about it because she knew that I did yoga. I taught yoga after business hours to some of the students there. Anyhow, she saw this ad, and she was livid. She told me, she said, ‘You have to make a choice.’ I said, ‘What are you talking about?’ She said, ‘You have to make a choice. You either give up your yoga studio or you quit your job.’ I said, ‘First of all, I’m not going to quit. You’re going to have to fire me. Secondly, it’s not even really a yoga studio. We have two classes a week. I have one student.’ She said, ‘No.’ It became a matter of principle for her. She said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘Okay, well I’ll wait for you to fire me.’ She obliged me by firing me. That’s how Yoga Lola got catapulted into being. I started looking for jobs, couldn’t find anything. I’m highly educated. I have incredible business experience, but there was a recession. I realized that I wasn’t going to find anything, and what I had to do was that saying, ‘When God gives you lemons, make lemonade.’ That’s how it happened. Joseph: I know that this does come up for people who listen to this show where they’ve got a side interest and a side project which could be anything from just a casual hobby to something a little bit more serious. It sounds like this was just at the infancy stage and something that you were tinkering with, didn’t plan to launch it until many years later, and yet your employer took issue with the fact that you had this side gig. What was her major concern? Lola: She said the Imagitech needed 150% of my time. I said, ‘Has it? Look! Go on the web. Look at my schedule. There are two classes. My husband can take them. We only have one student.’ She said, ‘Well, you’re going to try to grow your business on my back.’ I said, ‘No, I’m not. I’m not going to try to grow my business at all for a long time. It’s just there as a placeholder in my life,’ because I made a lot of money. It was really a sweet deal, even with all the stress. I got to wear beautiful suits. I got to travel. I had an expense account. She told me I had to make a choice, and I was like, ‘Well, we just spend $250,000 on a building.’ I don’t know what you expect me to do with it. In the end, it worked out for the best, but if you had asked me at the time, I really thought what was going to happen was she was going to fire me, and then I was going to go find another job, just like the one I had. That is not what happened. Joseph: During that immediate aftermath of you moving on from that company, what did you start to do the next week, the next month to figure out what you wanted to do next and how you wanted the next chapter to look in your life? Lola: I kept looking. I started working on the studio more, because I had free time on my hands. I finally realized I wasn’t going to find another job. I had to reeducate myself, and it was this studio or bust. That took about nine months to sink in, and I was shell-shocked initially. Joseph: Let’s shift gears, Lola, and talk a little bit about the yoga studio and how you got it from where it was to where it is right now, because I think the idea of starting a yoga studio, when I hear that, that seems pretty cool. I think that there’s probably a lot of people out there who think, ‘Oh, it’d be so cool to start my own studio,’ whether it’s yoga or fitness or whatever it is. How did you get that thing off the ground, going from one student to more students? I’d love to hear some details on what exactly you did. Lola: Absolute persistence and a dogged refusal to give up. I had to reeducate myself. I was a certified yoga teacher, and I’d been teaching yoga for a while before we opened the studio. I was also an energy healer. My grandmother taught me that at the age of 12. I had my business skills. I don’t know how anyone could open any business, whether it’s a yoga studio or any kind of small business, without having the kind of business skills I had, because that really became the foundation from which I built. I knew you have to be competitive in the marketplace. You have to have the right education for the audience that you’re presenting yourself to. I got a two-year degree in Ayurveda, which means something in the wellness business. I also became an E-RYT 500. I went to the highest level of yoga training that you could have. I rolled in my business skills as a technical writer by creating training programs that are really the bread and butter of our studio. We have a 200-hour training course, and then I also have a training course where I teach people how to do hands-on healing, and I certify them. I went to the Spencer Institute. I got my life coaching degree. I got some aerobics degrees. I studied Chinese herbals. I remade myself in a brand new image. I learned how to do marketing, which was really painful for me because I’m not very good at ‘selling’ things. I’m really uncomfortable with that. Joseph: What was uncomfortable about that for you? Lola: I feel like when you try to sell something, inherently you cheapen yourself. That was the attitude I had then. I’ve made a lot of shifts in my attitude since then. I’ve gone from the idea that I am selling something to the idea that I am offering something that, if people like, they’ll buy. There is no shame in that, but it was a big transition. The only thing I’d ever had to market was myself and my skills in the business world. I didn’t really have to ‘sell’ myself more than once. They hired me, and then I began to show them what I could do, but that’s different than selling. Joseph: Definitely. As you know, since we’ve spoken before recording this, I also came from the corporate world, and I was a full-time employee before launching my own business. I definitely hear what you’re saying about feeling a little bit more exposed and having to almost be forced to sell yourself more regularly versus being hired into a job, and then you do have your annual reviews, but if you do a good job, you’re pretty well set, in general. That’s very interesting. Any other surprises that have come up along the way for you in building your studio? Lola: Yes. The first surprise was that I lived in an area where people were relatively hostile to yoga. They felt like it was something that went against their belief system. They were very fearful of it. It took years and years and years of educating people. The media now, you see yoga everywhere. When we first opened the studio, especially here in Texas which is very conservative, which is very traditional, which is very, very republican, very Christian, there was a lot of fear initially about the technology of yoga. It took a long time for the message to get out that yoga is actually a technology. It’s a tool that works with the human body, mind, and spirit, whether you are agnostic, atheist, or deeply religious. Learning even how to speak that to people was an education of its own because I had done yoga for so long, and I was so open minded, and I had drunken in around in the world of these things for such a long time, I really did not realize that one of the biggest barriers to entry at the time was belief systems. Joseph: I hadn’t thought about that aspect of yoga. I always assumed that people did it for the health benefits, but I guess there is that spiritual side to it, which is either appealing or maybe quite alienating to people who aren’t familiar with it. Do you feel like there were any misconceptions about being a yoga instructor or misconceptions about yoga instructors in general that you would like to straighten out? Lola: Not that I have encountered in my one-on-one interactions, but I think sometimes people think yoga instructors are really limber, and they can do what you see on the yoga journal. I’ll tell you, that’s about 10%. Most yoga instructors are just people who have injuries, who bump up against their own internal conflict, who have lives like regular people. It looks glam, but it’s not all that glam. It really isn’t. Joseph: How long did it take for you to get the studio from a place where you weren’t sure it was going to be sustainable to a place where you felt like, ‘Okay, this is something that could become my full-time vocation?’ Lola: Seven years. Joseph: Wow. Was that longer than you expected, shorter than you expected? Lola: Like I said, I had a hard landing into it. I didn’t really know what to expect, because it was something that was going to happen way in the future. I had not done market research. We figured, by the time we were ready to do it, the environment would be a lot more right for it than it was at the time we bought the studio. We started, like I said, we had one student, and a big yoga class three years later was, ‘Wow, man. We had five students. That’s awesome,’ but I would wake up every day, and I tell my husband, I’d say, ‘I don’t know if I’m going to be able to get this thing off the ground.’ We’d look at it, and we’d say, ‘Okay, we’re going to try one more day.’ We went to the ‘one more day’ kind of model, and we just took it one day at a time. We stuck it out, and our reputation is beautiful. I mean we have such a wonderful reputation in our community. People began to talk about us, and then I learned how to do things on Facebook. I grew our social media presence. I learned how to language what I was saying to people in a way that they could embrace it. I began to really understand what the deeper fears were. I guess in the last year, we’ve had maybe 800, 900 people in and out of our studio. We’ve gone from nothing to something. It’s just been incredible. Joseph: One of the things that I think people who might be listening to this show struggle with is that time gap between when you start something and when it ‘takes off.’ You’re talking about seven years here. How did you know that you wanted to keep going with it versus quitting and moving on to something else? In other words, the question is around do I keep persisting or do I cut my losses and move onto something else? Lola: For me, I look at it, and I say, ‘Okay, how much has it grown this year compared to last year? How much more interest is there?’ Looking at income, it’s grown exponentially. Even though our income, I think most people would find it to be in the small to medium range, it’s enough to cover the cost of the studio and to allow us to keep growing. Our studio, because we purchased it, we have an asset that every time we pay the mortgage, we’re actually building equity and a hard asset that should we decide, ‘Okay, we’re not going to do this anymore,’ we can let it go. In addition to that, there are the emotional benefits which are significant. I really did not get those kinds of emotional benefits in the corporate world. I had pride. I had success. I had those feelings in the corporate of ‘Wow, we got this project done. It’s awesome.’ I have people who come in to me who are going through very traumatic events in their lives – cancer, divorce, all kinds of other traumatic events. They come to me, and when they do and we first start working together, their lives have been blown apart. By the time we get finished working together, I see a transformation that is unbelievable. In my group classes, people come in, and they sit down. They can’t even bend forward. They’re so stiff. A year later the transformation, they can reach their toes. The emotional reward of watching that happen is really what’s kept me in the game. Joseph: Got you. That’s a great segue, Lola, into one of the last things I was hoping to talk with you about, before we wrap up with what you’re focused on and the book that you just released last year, which is some of the things that you’ve learned along the way here. You mentioned emotional benefit for you. What other benefits have you seen in your life, having made this shift into doing work that you find more meaningful? Lola: It woke me up, and I didn’t even realize I’d gone to sleep. Like I said, it was a hard landing. I was like, ‘Boom! Wow! Look at how security-oriented I am. Look at how much fear has kept driving me to go into something.’ Fear and money kept driving me to go every day into a job where a lot of times I was exhausted. I was stressed out. I had sciatic, and my lower back hurt all the time. I took a deep dive into what motivates me. What do I want? I’ve stopped asking myself what I wanted a long time ago because I had what I needed. Joseph: The other thing that was coming to mind as you were sharing your story today, Lola, is that when we first connected, you said that when you make career changes, you meet parts of yourself, both likable and unlikable that you never knew existed. I’m curious, what did you discover about yourself? I’m curious about both the likable and unlikable. Lola: The likable is that I found out that my heart was bigger than I thought it was and that it had more room to encompass others, because in the corporate world, you kind of shelf yourself off if you don’t have a lot of contact with the public and finding their stories, finding them moving, finding the generosity that is inherently mine and being able to share it more freely. Unlikable was that I found out that I was a very transaction-oriented kind of gal, at least in the beginning. I had always done generous things. I’d worked in the community. I still did lots of things by donation when I was doing my healing and my yoga classes while I was working, but I had to come to terms with that part of me that had a cold, hard edge that wanted to drive things to profit and make everything transactional, weighing how this person would fit into my life and how they could help me grow into what I wanted to be. I also found out that I had a penchant for a little bit of snobbery. I didn’t like being sweaty. I didn’t like being yoga clothes all the time. I didn’t like my hair hanging limp. I wanted my suits back. I wanted to feel important. For a long time, I did not, because there was nobody to validate me. Joseph: Why do you think that it takes a major career change to uncover these things about yourself? Another way of asking that is why do you think these parts of ourselves remain hidden? In your case, you mentioned bigger heart, more transactional, the snobbery. What do you think it is about career changes that helps to make that stuff emerge? Lola: You are no longer safe. Joseph: Yeah, I guess it forces you to face a lot of your demons. Lola: Your fears. Joseph: You also mentioned, before we started this recording, that who is really inside comes from a place on discomfort, which is what a career pivot or change forces upon you. What exactly did you mean by that? Lola: When you go into automatic pilot—for example, I call it putting on your face—you wake up in the morning, you know exactly how you’re supposed to look, you know exactly how you’re supposed to present yourself, you know what’s going to help get ahead, but when you’re out there and you’re on your own and you’re creating something from scratch, you don’t really even know the language. You have to bust through. I feel like I am so much more authentic. It’s not that I’m not afraid. I worry about things. I do. But I’m a lot more authentic than I ever used to be. That’s because nobody’s going to fire me except me. Joseph: One of the things that we also talk about on this show is clarity, confidence, and courage. It really sounds like you found a lot of courage to stand on your own two feet and start your own studio and keep it going. How have you amassed courage during this transitional time? Lola: I allowed myself to really feel my feelings. When I needed to just pull back and have what I call a breakdown so that I could get to the next breakthrough, I let myself have that. I stopped pretending that I didn’t have fears. I became a lot more real to other people. I became a lot more cooperative instead of competitive. That also took some breakdowns to get to the breakthrough, which is I’m not in a corporation anymore, I’m in community, and learning to adapt to that. Joseph: One of the things I know that you’re doing for your community relates to what I wanted to wrap up with today. Can you tell me more about your book that you just release last year? Lola: The book is geared towards helping women find underlying causes that can trigger breast cancer. The reason I became so interested in it is, because as a healer and a yoga instructor, I get a lot of women coming in to me who have had breast cancer or who are going through the treatments and the surgeries. I started noticing an alarming increase of clients coming to me who had been diagnosed with breast cancer. About 10 years ago, I thought, ‘Oh my God! There has to be an underlying reason for just this surge.’ It’s not only breast cancer. It’s chronic or acute disease in particular, but breast cancer became my focus. I got out there, and I started researching all the different kinds of scientific data around breast cancer. I coupled that with my interest in complementary and alternative healing modalities, which I’ve been in that field for 40 years of my life and put it together in a book. The book is designed to help women uncover different tools that they can use to help prevent it. That’s the whole focus of the book. The name of the book is Fighting for Our Tits: A Woman’s Battle Cry. That’s what it’s for. Joseph: That’s really wonderful to hear that you’ve taken the time to write about such an important topic of breast cancer. If people want to learn more about you or they want to check out your book or learn more about your studio, where can they go? Lola: I have two different websites. My writer’s website is LolaScarborough.com, or they can go to YogaLola.com, or they can just directly email me [email protected]. Joseph: Thank you so much, Lola, for telling us more about your former life in the corporate world, your life as a yoga instructor, the realities of starting your own studio, and also the benefits of doing work you really enjoy. Best of luck with all of your writing and with Yoga Lola Studios. Lola: Thank you, Joseph. It was a pleasure and a privilege to be on your show.

When you follow a non-linear career path, it allows you to diversify your skills and experiences, but it can also create challenges when trying to explain your career narrative to others in your professional network, interviewers, and colleagues. Identifying the common thread that unifies all your experiences is one way to connect the dots for yourself and others. In Career Relaunch episode 66, journalist turned Wall Street analyst turned rabbi Tod Jacobs explains why having a life outside of work is so critical to your overall happiness and what it takes to figure out where to focus your career energies. In the Mental Fuel segment, I’ll explain how I discovered the common thread that unifies the wide range of experiences in my own career. Key Career Insights If you look closely, you may realize your disparate career experiences have some common themes that unite them. Find the overlap between the things you’re good at and the things you love. That’s what you should be devoting your energies. You have to take the time to figure out who you are and what you find meaningful before you dive head-first into a certain career direction. Make sure you develop other aspects of your life outside of your actual work, which allows you to derive more meaning from both. Focusing on what you can give in your life and career (rather than solely on what you get) allows you to focus on those things you can control and ultimately reap the benefits you deserve. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, my challenge to you, especially if you find yourself struggling to pitch your story to your target employer or client, was to: #1: dedicate some time to capture a written inventory of your skills and experiences, and #2: selectively hone in on those you feel are the most relevant to your future work. Try to highlight and reinforce those specific skills and experiences as part of your career narrative moving forward. Identifying a common theme that ties all your experiences together can serve as a convenient, unifying headline you can use when describing your career story to others. About Tod Jacobs, rabbi and co-founder of the David Robinson Institute Tod Jacobs is the Director of the David Robinson Institute for Jewish Heritage in Jerusalem, which he co-founded in 2005. Prior to his current role there teaching and counseling his students and alumni, he worked on Wall Street as a leading authority on the telecommunications industry. As a former managing director at JP Morgan and partner at Sanford C. Bernstein and Company, Tod acted as a frequent commentator to leading, newspapers, magazines and TV networks, and testified several times before the U.S. Congress as an expert on telecom and media policy. His credits in journalism, where he worked prior to Wall Street, include nominations for both the Pulitzer Prize for investigative journalism and an Emmy Award. He holds an MS in Journalism from Columbia University and an MA from Northwestern University. He’s recently published a book about marriage called Not a Partnership: Why We Keep Getting Marriage Wrong & How We Can Get it Right. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Tod know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of Career Relaunch. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 180,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Even though it seems like I have the crazy career going from screenwriting to journalism to broadcast journalism to Wall Street, I actually think that there is a certain thread that connects them. I don’t think that most rabbis think of themselves as being Wall Street analysts. It’s not as different as you might think. Joseph: Good afternoon, Tod, and welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Tod: Thank you very much, Joseph. It’s great to be here. Joseph: I’m excited to have you on the show, Tod, because you’re our first guest based in Jerusalem. I’ve got a lot of things I’d like to talk with you about. We’re going to talk about your time as a journalist, your time on Wall Street, and also what prompted you to move from New York City to Israel which is where you’re based right now. Can you just start by telling me what you’ve been focused on in your career and your life there in Jerusalem? Tod: I guess for the last 15 years, I have been pursuing a late-stage career, probably the last major career I’m going to have that I had at least in my plans. That is that I decided to leave Wall Street and come to Jerusalem to open up an institute with a mentor of mine. It’s called the David Robinson Institute for Jewish Heritage. It’s in Jerusalem. I spend virtually all of my time now teaching classic Jewish subjects, philosophy, law, a little bit of kabbalistic wisdom, deep spiritual wisdom, and mentoring really a phenomenal group of young men who come from many different places in the world and many different backgrounds. What unites them is that they’re all smart high-performing people who have finished college, who usually finished graduate school, who are pursuing careers, but then decide they want to take maybe a year off and maybe two years off of what they’re doing career-wise to figure out what makes them tick as human beings, get training in relationship building, and armed with that centered spiritual vision of what they want out of their life, they return to their careers with a new sense of vigor and idealism. One of my colleagues and I wrote a book which is based upon a lot of the work that we do in the area of relationships. The authoring part of my career is really just sort of an offshoot of what I’ve been doing for the last 15 years. Joseph: We’re going to come back to your time there as director. I know you haven’t always been the Director of the David Robinson Institute for Jewish Heritage, and you’ve got a really rich career that started off as a journalist. Could you tell us about your career, starting off as a journalist? I think you did a stint in screenwriting also, and then we can move forward from there. Tod: The career really began with sort of a failed career in screenwriting. When I say ‘failed career,’ there was a group of us. I think there were three of us. We were all close friends. We were all writers. One of us was, not myself, one of the three was a film maker, one was a bit of a poet, and I was more of a journalistic writer by nature. We decided to write a screenplay which we really almost never finished and never sold and never was able to do anything with it. I was waiting tables in New York City at the time to pay the bills. At some point, I just decided, ‘I just can’t go on like this. I have to get a real job,’ or at least what I thought then was a real job. I applied to go to the Colombia University Graduate School of Journalism so that I could continue doing what’s one of the things I viewed as the key thing that love doing which is writing but bring into a professional environment where I could actually have a regular job, get a paycheck while doing something that I enjoy doing and thought I was relatively good at. That took me into journalism. I can keep talking about the crazy things that happened in journalism, if you’d like. Joseph: Why don’t you tell me a little bit about what you enjoyed about journalism and some of the challenges that you had to tackle during your time as an investigative journalist? Tod: The beauty of being a journalist is just that incredible exposure to a lot of exciting and interesting things that are going on in life and the pressure to become experts in many, many different areas quickly, and to be able to communicate them to a broad audience who is not expert in those areas. Via a strange series of events, I wound up falling as a student into a very, very big investigative story. I never had in mind that I was going to become an investigative journalist. I was sent to do a story that was about a company called Wedtech. Wedtech had started out as a little tool-and-die shop that had grown to become a company that not only was successful but had gone public, had made its owners wealthy and famous. I was sent up to do what we would call a puff piece, just showing what a great little company that is, take a few pictures, talk about how wonderful they are. When I was up there, just something didn’t smell right. In going down to the SEC to get some filings on the company to find out about how their finances looked, I discovered some interesting data there which showed that some very, very powerful figures in the New York political world and in the New York business world seem to have been manipulating the company, taking control of it, and then handing it over to this guy to be more or less a puppet master in the company, or a front man I should say to the company, so that they could bill the government out of what turned out to be $100 million, $200 million or something like that. The great ending to that story is that for one year as an investigative journalist, my partner and I were both nominated for Pulitzer Prizes for Investigative Journalism because it was such a gigantic story. It was good enough to get those credentials to then get me into broadcast journalism where I then spent the next couple of years basically making documentaries and working in broadcast. Joseph: You’re a successful journalist. You’re nominated for a Pulitzer Award. You work in documentaries. What made you then want to transition into the world of Wall Street? Tod: At a certain point, I decided with a friend of mine that we would launch out on our own and have our own production company. We got a little bit of venture capital funding just to pay the basic bills. We gave away a part of the company to somebody in order to do that. About a year later, we absolutely totally failed as a company. At that point, I was married. I don’t think we were expecting our first child yet. It was kind of like in the near future, we thought. I had no money. I was out of a job. I just literally, not knowing what to do, had to start thinking about the next step. I wound up running into another friend of mine who had been working on Wall Street as a bond trader. He was working for Salomon Brothers at the time. He said to me, ‘Well, you know, you seem like a smart guy.’ He said, ‘What do you view as your core talents?’ I said, ‘Writing and reporting. That’s what I’ve been doing for the last couple of years: writing and reporting.’ He said, ‘Okay, writing and reporting.’ He said, ‘Okay, how are you with numbers? Are you good with numbers?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ I took calculus in college, but I haven’t really done anything with any math or economics.’ He said, ‘Well, if you think you’re even okay at it.’ He said, ‘I’d suggest you try and get a job as an analyst.’ I said, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘Well, they are these people who kind of investigate and report about a given industry and given sets of companies.’ I had literally no idea what to do, but he told me, ‘Go get a Wall Street Journal, collect all the names of the Wall Street firms you can find in the advertisements, and write letters to all their directors you’ve researched.’ The truth was we skipped over one little step in broadcast, which is that I had actually got nominated for an Emmy Award for a short film that I made for NBC. The film that I had made, there was a person who raised $1,000 for me to hire the camera crew for that. He raised it from a guy named Sanford C. Bernstein. This Mr. Bernstein had given me $1,000 for that project. I had never met him. In the letter I wrote to him, I said, ‘You once gave me $1,000, and I turned it into an Emmy Award. Imagine what I can do if I were working for you,’ or something like that. He thought that was humorous, and it was enough just to get my foot in the door and get an interview. Very, very happily, Sanford Bernstein hired me. They hired me as a total grunt. I’d never used a computer before. I’d only used these old typewriters, the manual typewriters in the newsrooms, but they figured I knew certain things an MBA student know, and so I spent the next two and a half years as a junior analyst before they promoted me to being a senior analyst. Joseph: As someone who didn’t start his career on Wall Street, what was it like for you to work on Wall Street? I’d be curious to hear about what you liked and maybe what you didn’t like so much. Tod: There were different stages. The initial couple of years were incredibly exhilarating on one hand, because the learning curve was amazingly steep. You can just imagine walking in, having a little bit of a sense that you’re sort of the smart guy, you know how to write, you know how talk to management, you’re not a pushover, but on the other hand, you don’t know anything that anybody around you knows. Happily, they gave me enough rope and enough time to get more and more responsibility over a period of about two and a half years. Slowly, slowly, I came up to a point where I actually had some sense of what I was doing. That was a year of amazing learning curve and amazing stress coming along with it. I wound up being a senior analyst with Sanford Bernstein. I was at Sanford Bernstein 11 years altogether and then got hired away by JP Morgan, where I went for the last couple of years, I guess the last two and a half, three years in my career. Joseph: I know at that time, you’d also had some children along the way. I think when we spoke before, I think you told me you have four kids. Tod: Yes, we have four kids. The fourth of them was born, by the way, during a meeting, a conference call that I was having with JP Morgan bankers and the company. As my wife was being wheeled into the OR to have this baby, I was on the phone with these guys saying, ‘You must let me off the phone. I got to go. I have to be part of this birth here.’ That one I’ll never forget. That one was part of JP Morgan. Joseph: On this show, we talked about transitions and what compels people to make major changes. In your case, I know you eventually made a major decision to not only move countries but also move away from the world of Wall Street and also change your role. What made you want to make such a major change and eventually move to Jerusalem? Tod: Throughout my career, I always try to make sure that I had things going on in my personal and private life which I felt were intrinsically meaningful. As much as I loved the time at Wall Street, which is an incredible time, incredible experience, I never felt that trying to make money was the highest calling of a human being. I did feel that it could give a person the tools and the stature and the assets to really make a difference in the world if you could extract yourself from doing that full-time. I wound up working for a couple of years at JP Morgan, and I just felt it. There’s going to be this time before I become too old, before my kids become too old, where if I’m not going to make a big move to go try something very idealistic and not money-oriented, that I’ll never be able to do it again. I had been, sort of quietly on the side, speaking to a mentor of mine for many, many years about the possibility of starting with him an institution in Jerusalem. It was years in the making while on Wall Street but never really knowing if it’s going to come to fruition. At a certain point, I just decided we have to fish or cut bait at this point, so I quit my job, and we moved to Jerusalem. I went back to full-time study to become a rabbi, basically, and then we opened up that institution in 2005. I have been up and doing that for close to 15 years now. Joseph: What was it like for you to go from Wall Street analyst to rabbi? Tod: Had I not had the Wall Street experience, I do not believe I would have had the confidence or the wherewithal, really in anyway, from the know-how standpoint, from an asset standpoint, to be able to do such a venture. In many ways, I viewed it as a next step, a progression, which as I look back, even though it seems like I had the crazy career going from screenwriting to journalism to broadcast journalism to Wall Street, I actually think that there’s a certain thread even into what I’m doing now. I don’t think most rabbis think of themselves as being Wall Street analysts, but in a way, there are so many similarities in terms of the boiling down and communication of complex concepts and hope that the person’s able to then integrate it and take it all to the next level themselves. It’s not as different as you might think, but it’s obviously got a whole spiritual component to it, which makes it, for me at least, much more personally gratifying and meaningful. Joseph: It’s really interesting, Tod, because I think one of the things that people sometimes struggle with is how to talk about their careers if they have a wide array of interest or they’ve made some pretty major career pivots. As you mentioned, you’ve had a wide range of professional experiences. How did you go about figuring out what the common thread was across your experiences and how to clearly and concisely communicate that to other people? Tod: I do think that most of us, if we’re honest with ourselves, can spend a little time trying to think about, first of all, ‘what do I love to do’ and try and list the things that you love to do, irrespective of whether they are professionally oriented or not, and then try and figure out what are you better at than other people – not just good at, but where do you have an actual competitive edge? That may have nothing to do with what you love, but if you have a list of things you’re good at and you have a list of things you love, you can compare those lists and put them together, and you could try and circle something at the top of both of those lists, where ‘not only am I good at it but I also love it.’ That is pretty much going to define what you should be pursuing for your whole career. In a way, I always knew at heart that what I was better at than other people was writing and communicating, taking ideas that were complex and then figuring out different ways to communicate them to other people. Maybe one of the big lessons of this whole story is all I really knew was what my competency was, and I sort of trusted that, over time, I would keep falling into the right things, those opportunities would happen. Almost none of those opportunities could have been predicted before they happened. Certainly, they could not have been generated by me. I think a lot of life is just figuring out what can you do, what can you do well, and try and stick with it, and then be flexible enough and opportunistic enough to try to find places to make it real. I think if a person can do that, you can have a career that will be extremely unpredictable in many cases, but often quite meaningful and often quite successful if you just keep sticking to what your core competency is. Joseph: That’s a great segue, Tod, into one of the last things I want to talk with you about before we wrap up with your book. That’s some of the lessons that you’ve learned about yourself in your own career, having navigated and made changes in your career multiple times. The first question I had actually relates to some of your observations there at the David Robinson Institute, having crossed paths with so many individuals who are taking breaks from their careers. What do you think is a common mistake that people make when it comes to thinking about where to take their careers? Tod: One of the biggest mistakes people make is they rush headlong into their careers before they really figure out who they are as human beings – what makes them tick, how do they want to work, do they have the wherewithal to go into a really competitive, hyper-aggressive type of a business like Wall Street or certain parts of tech or certain parts of consulting or certain parts of law. To the contrary, they may have been guided that way by their parents or by their schools, but maybe they want to be a social worker. Maybe what really turns them on is helping other people, and therefore, they can be a great therapist, or they can be a great nurse. People sell themselves short. They do what society or their parents or their community pushes them into, without actually trying to figure out if that actually fits them and if it has anything to do with what they’re real ideals are, and by the way, and if it’s really the place where they can shine the most relative to others, which again, I keep coming back to. Competitive advantage is a very important thing to have in your career, whether you’re going to a psychologist or a nurse or whether you’re going to try and go to Wall Street or go to consulting. To me, one of the important things is take some time and figure out who you are, the extent to which you can develop things in your life which are meaningful to you, which are not directly related to your job, whether it’s community work, whether it’s volunteering, whether it is deep involvement in your family or community. The more you have in your life which gives you meaning outside of work, the greater longevity you’ll have in your job, the less stress you’ll have in your job. There’s almost no business now where there’s not ups and downs, where there’s not a lot of competition, where there’s not a fear factor and anxiety factor. The more you’re the person that can stand behind that job, who has your own substance, your own life, some meaning that you’re pursuing and a bit of psychological distance from your job, the extent to which you have all of these things is I believe the extent to which you’ll be much more successful on the job ironically than the people who have nothing else, nothing else but their job. I’ve seen that over and over and over and over again. My advice really strongly to people is you’ve got to figure out what’s meaningful in your life, and make sure that you are developing that at the same time you’re developing your career. Joseph: You’re also someone, Tod, who has successfully made a few career pivots. What’s something that you wish you had known about making such major changes, in your case, multiple times that you now know? Tod: The extent to which you can cannot force these changes to occur and these opportunities to occur, if a person understood that at an early stage, I think there would be a bit less stress and anxiety associated with their career in general. The idea that we don’t control the world like we would like to, the earlier you can get an understanding of that, in a sense, the more flexible and malleable you become with respect to your career, the more relaxed and healthy you’ll be, which again, always brings you back to bigger, better employment with much more longevity in your job. Joseph: What have you learned about yourself along the way of your twisting career journey? Tod: There are a lot of people that, based upon unhealthy relationships in their careers, make life extremely rocky for the people around them. I learned early on to try not to do that and then to trust in yourself and work really, really hard and try and develop things outside of your life to make life richer and more livable. Joseph: Speaking about relationships, Tod, I want to wrap up by talking about your book, which is titled Not a Partnership: Why We Keep Getting Marriage Wrong and How We Can Get It Right, which you co-authored with Peter Lynn and released in April 2019. Let’s talk about the title first. What did you mean when you said ‘not a partnership’? Tod: The way many people approach their marriage is pretty much like people approach partnerships in the business world. If you look at the statistics on partnerships, you know what you find? Most of them fail. The way we tend to look at ourselves is ‘I’m doing everything I’m supposed to be doing, and you’re not pulling your weight.’ That leads to bitter recriminations. It leads to lots of in-fighting. It leads to lots of failed partnerships, frankly in the business place. When you port that perspective into your marriage, it is corrosive. It is destructive, and people spend much or their marital energy resenting their spouse, because after all, ‘I’m doing my part, and you’re never doing your part.’ That’s just the absolute worst mindset to go into marriage with. Joseph: This isn’t a show about marriage, but I cannot let you go, Tod, without asking you at least a few questions to get your tips on marriage and get your perspectives on things. I’ve been married now for about seven years, and I’m always interested in this topic. One of the things that you say early on in your book is that the job of each spouse is to help the other in every way. I’d be curious how you think about that topic, especially as it relates to the context of someone’s career, if they are not feeling so great about their job or their career. Tod: If I’m going to have a successful marriage, any successful relationship by the way, I really need to be thinking about what are your needs, and how can I help you fulfill them, how can I help you accomplish your goals. We need a total mindset change that says rather than marriage being someplace where I’m entitled to get from the other, it’s a place which creates a whole vehicle in which I can now become a giver. People become bigger and better people as they give. Research shows that they are happier the more they give. When a person begins giving to the other, the other always responds by giving back. The actual fruit of giving tends to be that you awaken giving in the other person. When it comes to our career, there’s a sense of excellence, a sense that we are held accountable, and a sense that we got to work really hard to be experts in any arena that we’re going to be in in our careers. Marriage is no less complex than any career that any of us faces. By the way, what’s a great proof for that? How many people do we know who are very successful in their careers and extremely unsuccessful in their personal relationships? Because guess what? A personal relationship also requires learning, studying, finding out what a healthy relationship looks like, some version of a review process where I at least find out how am I doing as a spouse. When I begin to take some of those lessons that are true and obvious and self-evident in the business world and every other arena that I operate in and I begin porting that sense of responsibility, professionalism, desire to keep learning, desire to keep working and the willingness to look at honestly who I’m doing, again, I become a better spouse. I give more, the marriage becomes more something that blossoms more, and I get a lot more meaning and pleasure and happiness. Joseph: The other thing you mentioned in your book, and I think this is also applicable to our careers, was that as problems arise in our marriages, we seek solutions, but we often get stuck at the surface level. I think you give the example of how great and mediocre doctors differ in their approaches to treating illnesses. What did you mean by this, and how do you think this applies to marriages? Tod: Let’s take the classic example. I go to a doctor, and I say I’ve got an infected throat. You don’t have to be any better than a mediocre doctor to look at my throat and say, ‘Oh, throat infection. Okay, I’ll give you some antibiotics for that.’ That’s the mediocre doctor who basically reads symptoms and treats symptoms. When I begin looking at underlying causation, I can begin treating much deeper levels of your health, which will then reflect themselves eventually and getting fewer signs of infections and fewer throat infections. When it comes to marriage, it’s like the husband who leaves his socks around the room, rather than putting them in the hamper. The real problem is his wife wants him to stop doing the sock on their floor thing, but really what the much deeper issue is obviously he’s just not very thoughtful, and he doesn’t really value his wife’s time as much as he values his time. ‘I don’t have the extra two seconds to grab my socks and go put them in the hamper. Oh, but she obviously does.’ That’s a fundamental character issue that has to be worked on. How do I think about another person? How do I make space for another person? How do I elevate the needs of another person to at least where they’re as important as my own? That is a lot of the real work that has to get done within the context of marriage. Again, once again, in other arenas, we do these things naturally, because we know that there will be consequences if we don’t. Joseph: You also mentioned in your book that it’s really important. I think this is one of the pillars you mentions of having a successful marriage is to keep things fresh. You go on to saying in that chapter that you have to prioritize your spouse. I have found that, especially in the context of having children—we’ve got an 18-month old at home—or anything else that takes up space in your life, this can become tough. Do you have any simple tips on how to keep things fresh? Tod: I’ll give you one practical piece of advice which is hard to do. I’ve actually had students, husbands and wives. I’ve sometimes asked them to literally sign a contract. I even put an example of a contract in the book. Sign a contract with each other that says, ‘We’re going to make sure that every Tuesday night, we’re going to work as hard as we can to make sure we have a date night, that we get out of the house, and we don’t talk about the kids, and we don’t talk about work. We talk about each other. It shouldn’t be about solving practical issues. It should be about constantly remembering why we got married, why we fell in love, why we price each other so much, why we like spending time together.’ When people do that, people are worried, ‘Oh my gosh, my kid is going to be traumatized, because she’s going to wake up in the middle of the night, and there’s going to be a stranger there babysitting.’ The happiness engendered by the two of you being in love, happy with each other, communicating well, having great intimacy and an over-flowing relationship would have much positive impact on the kid over an entire childhood than any little trauma and crying fit will have when you walk out and leave them with a babysitter or they wake up with a babysitters. It has huge impact on the home, but it won’t happen unless you prioritize it. Joseph: I’m going to keep that in mind, Tod. I’m going to share some of this with my own wife. I’m also going to keep that in mind for myself. There are some really great tips there. If people want to learn more about your perspectives on marriage and get some great tips on how to have a successful marriage and to check out your book, Not a Partnership, where can they go? Tod: Amazon.com, the book is called, Not a Partnership, and they’ll find us there. Joseph: Cool, I definitely recommend people check it out. I just wanted to thank you so much, Tod, for taking your time out of your busy day to tell us more about your life as a rabbi and how you made your career pivots, being born to figuring out who you are, and also sharing a few useful tips about marriage right there at the end. Thanks so much and best of luck with the book and all that you’re doing for your community there in Jerusalem. Tod: Thank you so much. I appreciate it very much.

Getting laid off from your job can be one of the more jarring experiences in your career. When it happens to you twice, how can you bounce back? And how can a career setback help you clarify and redefine what’s important to you? In this week’s Career Relaunch podcast episode, automotive industry professional Ana Wagner explains how she dealt with being laid off when she was eight months pregnant and once again during the Great Recession of the late 2000s. We’ll talk about a range of topics including how to avoid being defined by your job and why career detours can give you an opportunity to reevaluate your priorities and gain some healthy perspective. During the Mental Fuel segment, I address a listener’s question from Japan about how long you should hold onto a job you don’t like. Key Career Insights You have the freedom to NOT define yourself by the title you have or the company you work for, as tempting and natural as that may feel. While you may not like every aspect of your job, you need to enjoy the majority of the work you do for a living. Otherwise, it’s miserable. Being laid-off doesn’t necessarily hurt you in the long run, and in fact, can be a blessing in disguise. Similarly, taking a step down in role and/or salary can actually serve you in many, less obvious ways. Tweetable to Share You may not like every single colleague, boss, or project at work, but you need to like what you do most of the time--otherwise, it's miserable. Ana Wagner Tweet This Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I addressed a listener’s question from Tokyo about what to do if you don’t like your job and aren’t sure how long you should stick things out. If you’re stacking up the opinions others have of your career against your own desires, I’d challenge you to take a step that honors who you are and how you want your life to look. I don’t think it’s easy to completely disregard what others think of you, but I’m just encouraging you to take one step that will move you closer to what YOU want, even if it creates some temporary upheaval or turbulence in your life with the people around you. Because sometimes, you have to prioritize your own happiness, which will hopefully allow the people in your life to eventually feel happier for you too. About Ana Wagner, Global Segment Director at PPG Industries Ana Wagner is a mom to two teenagers, wife, and proud native Colombian, currently working as Global Segment Director at PPG, where she is responsible for driving global alignment and defining long term strategic direction for the automotive parts segment. Ana has spent most of her career in the automotive and chemical industries in positions ranging from engineering to market development to marketing strategy. Ana has a Bachelor of Science degree in Industrial Engineering form Xavier University in Bogota, Colombia, and an MBA from the University of Michigan, Dearborn. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Ana know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting allows you to offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Episode Interview Transcript Ana: I’m going to find something I really like, and now I live by the rule that I have to like what I do at least 70% of the time. I’m not going to like all of my bosses or my co-workers or every single one of my tasks or my projects, but I have to like what I do most of the time. Otherwise, it’s miserable. Joseph: Good morning, Ana, and welcome to Career Relaunch. It’s great to have you on the show. Ana: Hi, Joseph. Thanks for having me. Joseph: I am hoping to talk through a few things with you today, including some of the career transitions you’ve been through and also how you’ve managed through some of the tradeoffs you’ve had to make with each of your career moves. I was hoping you could start us off by just telling me what’s been keeping you busy in your career and your life the past few weeks. Ana: I work in B2B market strategy, and so I’ve been very busy travelling the world actually. It’s been a lot of travel and juggling with a couple of teenagers. I work for a big company in the chemical space, and so that takes a lot of my time. Joseph: I think you also just got back from Colombia. Is that right? Ana: That’s right. My native Colombia. I was there attending on my high school reunion. Joseph: Very cool. Let’s just start with what you’re doing right now. You mentioned the work that you’re doing. You’re at PPG Industries. What exactly do you do there as a Global Segment Director? Maybe we’ll start there, and then I’d like to jump all the way back in time and then go through your career history. Ana: As a Global Segment Director, I am in charge of a segment, which is Automotive Parts and Accessories Functional. It’s coatings for automotive parts that go directly into companies that actually make parts for automotive called the tiers – the tier suppliers here in Detroit. In that role, I am responsible for the long-term strategy of the segment as well as global alignment between the regions. Joseph: Now, I’d like to go back in time because I also know that you started off in the automotive industry as an automotive engineer. Could you just tell us about your time when you started off as an automotive engineer, working, and then we can go forward from there? Ana: Yes, absolutely. I have an undergrad in industrial engineering. That’s how I started at Ford Motor Company here in Detroit. I worked there for a few years, and then I was part of a spinoff from Ford. The parts division of Ford spun off as a company called Visteon. All in all, I was there for almost eight years. Joseph: What happened at your eighth? What exactly happened that resulted in you moving on from Visteon? Ana: The company had been spun off as a very large company. In 2004, it was facing decisions in terms of downsizing. I happened to be eight months pregnant. I had mentioned to my boss that I wanted to take a long maternity leave which was something that the company offered as a benefit, like up to a year. You wouldn’t come back to the same job, but you would have a job. I had mentioned that a few weeks before, but then one day, they had massive layoffs. Hundreds of people got laid off on a Friday morning. I’ll never forget. I was eight months pregnant, sitting at my desk, and somebody came, tapped me on the shoulder, took me to a conference room where HR talked to me, gave me a folder and told me I had a few minutes to pack up my things, ‘Here’s a box,’ and they escorted me out of the building. Joseph: Wow. That’s just like what you see in the movies pretty much. I guess there’s a couple of aspects of this that I’m interested in. I guess I’m first of all interested in what it was like to get that very sudden tap on the shoulder, that exact moment when that happened. I’m also interested in what it was like to be eight months pregnant and getting that tap on the shoulder. Ana: I was going to say it’s horrible, pregnant or not, but it’s even more horrible when you’re not expecting it. Interestingly enough, about three weeks before, I had had a performance review that was outstanding, and I had been told I was a high potential employee and all these. Something happened in between. I think, theories after the fact, word kind of going around that maybe I got on the wrong list. Maybe somebody was meant to really sit down with me and ask me if I wanted to take a package, but the truth of the matter is I got on the list. It’s pretty brutal. It’s pretty brutal, especially when you’re not expecting it. That same morning, I was talking to co-workers there, ‘Come on. You’re pregnant. You’re a woman. You’re Hispanic. There’s no way.’ It happened. Joseph: The aspect of being pregnant right before, I guess, you’re about a month out from delivery, I’m guessing that must’ve affected your psyche at that moment. I’m wondering how that might’ve affected you at that very moment. Ana: I actually almost went into labor that day. That day was very, very difficult. I almost went into labor that day. Thankfully, I didn’t, so the baby wasn’t born too early. It was very upsetting. It was very upsetting, especially at the beginning. Within a few days, I said, ‘Ok. This is a good opportunity. I was looking to spend a year home anyway, and here it is. I got a severance check. I’ll take this time to think things through and just actually be with my baby.’ It ended up working out in the end. Joseph: How was maternity leave for you? Ana: It was really nice, but at the same time—this was in my early 30’s—I was really afraid of missing out on what was happening in the workplace and missing out on skills, maybe I wasn’t gaining connections and trying to get back into the workforce later. Joseph: My wife has been through maternity leave, and even I took a little bit of a paternity leave. On the one hand, I know it’s really nice to spend some time with your newborn baby. At the same time, as a professional, it’s hard not to think about time passing professionally. I guess in your case, you had not yet had a job that you knew you were going to back to. How did you think through getting back into the workforce, when to go back, how to reenter? Ana: I did give myself six months. I said I’m going to give myself six months to really enjoy the baby and enjoy motherhood and adjust to the baby. This was our first baby. I have two now. I gave myself the first six months, and I thought that was a smart thing. The nice thing about being laid off when you’re part of one of these massive layoffs and packages, at least at the time, is I got a relocation package with a relocation company. I was able, after six months, to go in to this relocation company and go through their training. The training starts by really understanding yourself, what you’d like to do, what your capabilities are, and what the right matches are. I went through that, which was really, really helpful, and I started searching for the right thing. Joseph: What did you end up uncovering as the next chapter in your career? Ana: As traumatized as I was by the corporate world, I found out that I really liked what I was doing in terms of market strategy. I wanted to keep on the same line of business. I think my attitude really changed though. How I was viewing my job really, really changed. Before, I defined myself by my title and the company I worked for. When I entered Ford, I thought for sure I was going to retire from there. I really adjusted that view. I said, ‘I’m going to find something I really like.’ Now, I live by rule that I have to like what I do at least 70% of the time. I’m not going to like all of my bosses or my co-workers or every single one of my tasks or my projects, but I have to like what I do most of the time. Otherwise, it’s miserable. Joseph: I think from our conversation before, you ended up moving into the chemicals industry. Is that correct? Ana: Yes, I was in the chemical industry for about four years. You think you go through this layoff thing once, and that’s a great experience, and you learn. Seven years later, I get laid off again. Joseph: How did that one happen, Ana? Ana: This one was a little bit more expected. This was January of 2009 in Detroit. If you and the listeners know, this was a very tough time in the US and especially tougher for the auto industry in Detroit. That one was a little bit more expected. The company decided to shut down a branch and close down operations in a few areas. They laid off a lot of people at the same time in one day also. I ended losing my job again. I couldn’t believe it. This time, I took it a little bit easier. I said, ‘Oh well, let’s try to find the next thing.’ Luckily for me, within a few weeks, I had a job with a customer. People find out that you’re available. Thanks to networking, I ended up finding something. Having said that, it was something. It wasn’t the perfect job. It was a job that I needed to make a living, but it wasn’t perfect. Joseph: Did you find that going through the layoff, did that affect your job prospects at all? In this case, it sounds like you made a smooth transition. Did it ever come up? Do you feel like it ended up being a baggage on your resume? The reason why I ask is I know that sometimes people listening to this show have gone through situations where they’ve been laid off or they’ve been fired. I’m just wondering, sometimes, people have a concern about how that plays out in the long run. Has this had an impact in anyway on your career in the material fashion, beyond obviously the disruption? Ana: Sure, beyond the disruption and the pain that it is to have to go look for another job, but no, not really. I really was afraid of that, especially the first time it happened, because you’re going to get the question of the gap on your resume and what happened and why did you leave this company. The second time, I was afraid that would happen, ‘Why did you leave all these companies? Why do you keep moving?’ In reality, no. I think everybody knows what was happening in the economy during those years, and it was a very normal thing, especially here in Detroit. So not at all. It was you were working in a big corporation, and it happens. Joseph: I’d like to shift gears here a little bit, Ana. This show is all about career change, and we’ve talked about two situations here where it wasn’t your choice to necessarily move on from your job. I know later on in your career, you actually did make some choices, and the choices that you felt were allowing you to prioritize the aspects of your life that were important to you. Can you explain the next chapter of your career when you were at, I believe, it was Guardian Industries? Ana: After getting laid off the second time, you basically find you get what you get. It was 2009, tough year. 2010, also very tough. I stayed where I was, but I realized it wasn’t the right thing for me. It wasn’t the right match for my values, what I wanted to do. At the time, thanks to the experiences that I had had before, especially being let go when I was pregnant, my priorities were very clear. My family was first. I was doing a lot of traveling all over the world. I was in an environment where it was no working from home. The office was about an hour from where I live, and so it just took a toll on my family life and stress. I decided to look for opportunities, and I was being very, very careful about the right corporate culture. I decided to take a step down. I took a step down in title. I had been a director at Guardian Industries, and I went to Dow Chemical as a manager. I also took a step down in pay a little bit, about 10%, 15% pay cut to go there. It was a very conscious decision, and I’m glad I did it. Joseph: What were you trying to remove from your professional life, and what were you trying to add to your professional life? Ana: I was looking for an environment that had a better work-life balance culture to begin with and more growth prospects professionally, a place where you could move to maybe different industries within the same company, serve different industries within the same company, where I could have more opportunities to move and to learn. Joseph: What were your main concerns about taking a pay cut? Ana: Clearly, taking a pay cut takes a toll. Maybe we will take this vacation or not, but one of the things that goes into the mix is that we are a dual career family. My husband had at the time and still has a full-time job. We were on a dual income, which was a little bit easier to make the decision that way. I don’t take that for granted. Had I been a single mom, the decision would have been probably very different. Joseph: Do you feel that pay cut at all, on a day-to-day basis, do you feel like it has a material impact on your life? Ana: Not as much as you think. It really was for a short time. I knew what I was doing. I knew that the prospects of the other place were better, so it might have been a year or two, but really in the big scheme of things, not a huge impact, no. Joseph: The other things I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up here is just some of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your career change. I would like to spend a little bit of time with this because I know we’ve gone through some quite major changes in your career quite quickly. I’m just curious about some of the things that you may have learned along the way. Was there anything that especially surprised you about being laid off? Ana: Yeah, how really being laid off or even taking a risk—if that’s what you decide to do on your own—is really not as hurtful in the long run, especially if you have a good background, a good experience that you can count on and launch of off that. That was surprising. It really wasn’t… It really didn’t hurt me in the long run. In fact, it’s possible that if I hadn’t been let go the first time when I was pregnant, I probably would still be there, and maybe my career trajectory would have been maybe not as exciting as it has been. Joseph: The other thing you eluded to was the shift in your perspective on I guess what I’m going to describe as the corporate world and your attachment to your identity as part of someone who’s within that corporate world. How have your views on the corporate world, broadly speaking, evolved over time? Ana: I know for a fact that they keep going without you, that you’re not indispensable. You’re just one person. I’ve also learned it’s business. It is not somebody being evil. It’s just the way it is. I see myself now more as a person. I am Ana. I am a mom. I am a career person. I’m an engineer. I have an MBA. I do all these things. I see myself more as Ana Inc. Right now, I have contracted myself to one company. Maybe next year, I’ll be somewhere else. I don’t define myself by the corporation or by the title. I also learned to put priorities first – not that I didn’t put my family first before, but even more so now. I will not miss a dance recital, and I will not miss a baseball game if I at all can help it. Joseph: That’s a really healthy way of looking at the balance between the two. I know one of the things that people struggle with sometimes is just having so much of their identity wrapped up in their job title and their association with their company or their organization. Do you have any thoughts on how you have been able to create some healthy separation between the two? Because speaking from personal experience, sometimes it’s a little bit hard to separate yourself from the company or the organization that you work for. Ana: It definitely is. I try to keep work where work is. Like you, I also work from home quite a bit, and I do a lot of travel. I have a space at my house that’s my office for work that has a door, and it’s closed. When my children get home from school, if they see the door closed, especially if I have a headset on my head, they know I’m working. That’s what they have learned since they were little, and so I just keep that very separate. When I’m done, I try to turn off the computer and walk away from the office, and now I’m home. I try not to go back unless I do a lot of evening conference calls with Asia. In that case, I’ll go back. I try not to bring my computer into the kitchen and keep doing emails while I make dinner, for example. I don’t do that. Joseph: I see. So you’ve actually created a physical separation. I’ll have to keep that in mind myself. I’m kind of bad about dabbling between the two sometimes. Ana: I’m lucky I don’t live in a big city. I do have maybe more space than in a big city where I can’t do that. Yeah, physical separation really does help. Joseph: What about something that you wish you had known that you now know about navigating career transitions? Ana: The main thing for me is that it is okay to take a step back to then take three forward. It’s okay to take a risk or to pause or to make a change, because I was very afraid of doing that before. Joseph: Finally, what about one thing you’ve learned about yourself when it comes to the balance or blend between family and work? Ana: Probably the main thing is that, thankfully, I do believe I have my priorities straight, and it has paid off. For example, if I ever feel like I should be working through the weekend to get this done, but instead I make myself maybe not work as many hours over the weekend to get that done, and in the end, I get it done the next week. Really understanding that you can manage time, and I do a lot of that multitasking in general but also manage a lot of projects at the same time. It’s okay to set time aside to focus on work and then set time aside to focus on your family. That I’ve learned quite a bit throughout the years. Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about was something we touched on at the very beginning of our chat, which was going back to your reunion down in Bogota. I always find in interesting, the psychology of going to a reunion, where you haven’t seen people for a long time. I don’t know about you, but when I go to a reunion, it’s really hard not to think about how other people will view you and where you are in your life. What mattered and what didn’t matter when it came to sharing details about your career and your life with your former classmates? Ana: It’s funny that you mentioned that, because it used to happen to me. Even going back home to Colombia and meeting friend I hadn’t seen for a while, you get a little bit nervous about that whole thing. This time, I just went completely as I am. It is who I am. Not that I was faking it before, but I just didn’t care about perceptions. It is who I am now. Interestingly now, it could be because it was a 30 high school reunion, 30 years, so maybe we’re 30 years more mature. The topic almost didn’t come up as much. We were more asking about each other’s families and each other’s happiness and the children. That was really nice. That was really refreshing. It could be because we’re 30 years older now and much more mature than 10, 20 years ago. Joseph: That’s a good point. I went to my 20-year high school reunion a while back. This was actually a few years ago. I remember coming out of it that I enjoyed the 20-year a lot more than the 10-year. I just didn’t feel like people were comparing as much during that one for whatever reason. Ana: That was the case for me definitely. Joseph: Interesting. Ana, thank you so much for telling us more about your career transitions. I was wondering if you’d be willing to just tell people where they can go if they want to learn more about you or to connect with you or learn more about your story. Ana: Sure! Probably the easiest way to get a hold of me is through LinkedIn. My profile is Ana_C_Wagner. Joseph: Thank you so much, Ana, for telling us more about your transitions and how you managed those layoffs and also how you took steps to honor the priorities in your life. I appreciate you sharing your story today. I just want to wish you the best of luck with the ongoing pursuits in your life and your career. Ana: Thank you very much. It’s been my pleasure

The company you work for and the people you work with can have a huge impact on your perspectives, outlook, and self-belief. In episode 64 of Career Relaunch, Retail merchandiser turned baby sleep expert Tamiko Kelly explains why surrounding yourself with the right people can have such a profound impact on your career. She’ll explain the steps she took to move from the corporate world to set up her own independent business. We’ll talk about the importance of starting even if you don’t have a plan fully mapped out, getting yourself out of bad environments, and letting go of things that no longer serve you. Key Career Insights Doing 1-on-1 work that feels unscalable can actually allow you to develop deep insights that enables you to create more scalable offerings. You don’t have to have a fully ironed out marketing strategy to get your business off the ground. You just have to start somewhere. At some point, you have to let go of the things that are no longer serving you and trust that things are going to work out. Getting yourself out of a toxic environment is the first step toward getting back the confidence you need to relaunch your career in a more positive direction. Tweetables to Share You're doing yourself more harm staying in a situation that's no longer serving you. Tamiko Kelly Tweet This Resources Mentioned I mentioned the Myers-Briggs Type Inventory on today’s show. You can read more about Myers-Briggs and take the survey yourself to find out which of the 16 personality types you fall into. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, challenges you to think carefully about the company you keep. Think about what specific impact the people you spend the most time with are having own your personal and professional well-being. Write it down. If they’re having a positive impact, great. But if they’re dragging you down all the time, ask yourself how long you’ll willing to tolerate being around those people, and if you feel the time has come to get yourself out of the situation, what small step you could take this week to lay the groundwork for moving somewhere else. About Tamiko Kelly, baby sleep expert Tamiko Kelly is the founder of Sleep Well, Wake Happy and the creator of The Feel Like Yourself Again Baby Sleep Solution. As a certified sleep consultant and holistic health practitioner, Tamiko helps tired moms feel like themselves again by teaching them how to get their babies sleeping through the night. Her sleep advice has been featured on Yahoo Finance, Care.com, Spawned Parenting Podcast and she has appeared as a guest expert on Austin’s ABC Affiliate TV Show, Studio 512. You can learn more about her workshops here. Prior to doing this work, Tamiko spent her career working in the corporate world doing retail merchandising at some well-known brands including Banana Republic and Nordstroms. You can follow Tamiko on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Tamiko know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter and Facebook. You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! P.S. Have you heard of Freshbooks? Freshbooks offers user-friendly, simple yet professional invoice templates ideal for small business owners. If you’re a self-employed professional or small business owner looking for simple invoicing and accounting tool, try it free for one month by going to CareerRelaunch.net/Freshbooks. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): The longer we stay in toxic environments, it really makes us start to believe that we aren’t capable, that we can’t do things, that we are not successful. You’re doing yourself more harm staying in a situation that is no longer serving you. Joseph: Good afternoon, Tamiko. Welcome to Career Relaunch. We’re going to talk through a few different topics today, including what made you want to leave your retail career behind and how you decided to start your own business focused on, as you put it, helping tired parents. Can you start by telling me more about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life just to get us started? Tamiko: Right now, I am making a big shift in my business where I’m going to be out of the day-to-day activities, focusing on the new offer for my company, which is super exciting. Personally, I am about to start the moving process, which we all know can be a little crazy, but as soon as I get my hands around it, because I’m off early with the prep work, so it’ll be easier for me. I’m excited about my new place. Joseph: I know that you said that you are moving on a little bit in the nature of your work. At the same time, I would be curious to just hear a little bit more about what you had been doing before making this transition. For those people who aren’t familiar with what a sleep consultant does, what exactly have you been doing for parents out there? Tamiko: I help tired moms feel like themselves again by teaching them how to get their babies sleep into the night. My clients call me the baby whisperer. Basically since 2008, I spent over 50,000 hours. It’s probably closer now to, if I had to guess, over 80,000 or 90,000 now. I was spending that amount of time teaching babies how to sleep and helping their parents be super excited and get a good night’s sleep as well. I have not met a baby who I couldn’t teach to sleep through the night. I also work with toddlers and older kids as well. If you have a kid who can’t sleep, I’m definitely the girl who can help you. It all started back in 2008, so it’s been a long, wild, crazy ride. Joseph: I know that you have not always been a sleep consultant, and I do want to come back and hear a little bit more about exactly what you have been doing as a sleep consultant, but can we go back in time and go all the way back to your days working in retail? Then we can move forward from there. Perhaps we could start with your time at The Gap. Could you just explain what you’re doing when you kicked off your retail career at The Gap? Tamiko: I used to live in the Bay Area, San Francisco, for our folks who are not in the US. I graduated from FIDM, which is the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandise in San Francisco, and my first job out of that—and this is after I already had my Bachelor’s Degree, so this is my second degree—was working at Gap. It started off as a strictly contract position, and all I was supposed to do was to help the Piperlime, which is no longer in existence. We help Piperlime basically organize their inventory. Back in those days, Piperlime had actual hard goods sample sent from the vendors that we used to service, and we had a sample room. My job was to go into that sample room and actually create inventory organization because what will happen is that our photo team would take pictures of all of the pictures for the actual website so that people could see what the shoes look like and videos of people actually wearing the shoes. Then those shoes had to be chucked somewhere. That was my first stop at Gap. Joseph: How did you like that and how did you see your career at that point in time progressing? Tamiko: I loved working at Piperlime because it was literally a startup. It was brand new. The team was excited. It was a super driven time because Gap had never gone into the shoe business before, so it was super exciting for the whole team to kind of be in the inaugural division of the company basically proving ourselves that we could be profitable, etc., that we could actually do the work and actually make money selling shoes. I had no idea where I wanted my career to go. I had been in retail for so long that I was super excited to be in actual corporate. Anybody who’s in retail, had been to retail, you understand the grind that comes with working on the store level. I was excited not to be at the store level anymore, so I did not care what job it was as long as don’t get the store, and so Piperlime was a super exciting time for me for sure. Joseph: Then you made a transition—is that right?—to work in high-end clothing retail. What happened during that chapter of your career, and what made you want to make that shift? Tamiko: Actually, after Piperlime, I was recruited by another division of Gap, Banana Republic, to come and work on their team and specifically work on the men’s business and visual merchandise. I’ve had so much experience in visual merchandising. I was an actual stylist, so I worked with magazines and photographers and did runway shows on and stuff, dressing models and all that, and so they were super excited to have that experience on that team. Basically, at Banana Republic, I work in the photo studio. My job there was to help the stylist again keep all of the merchandise organized. That was my first role, but then as I was on the team, I’d again got promoted to actually working on the visual men’s merchandise side of the business where I was working with the VP of that division. We were actually setting up the visuals that the entire company would use. We had a studio, and I was basically setting up the visual merchandising for that part of the business. Basically, at that time, we had about 200 stores. All 200 stores would use the work that we produced to set up the visual merchandise, and so if you guys shop at Banana Republic, all of the mannequins and the tables and all that stuff was done by a team like the one I was on. That was super fun, super exciting. I definitely loved my time working in Gap Corporate. After Gap was my entrée into Nordstrom. I actually got to open up a fabulous, fantastic store. Actually, let’s back track here. I worked at Nordstrom before The Gap actually because I opened a store in the Houston Galleria. Shout-out to my folks who work at the Houston Galleria store. I opened that store back in 2003, I believe. Joseph: It sounds like you had such a good run in the retail space. You got a chance to work on some fantastic brands like The Gap and Banana Republic and Nordstrom. I was just curious how you went from that to focusing on sleep. Tamiko: I took from long line of entrepreneurs, Joseph, so for me, it was a super easy transition. I knew I always wanted to own my own business. I didn’t have any idea what I wanted it to be. I used to have a jewelry business back in the day. I thought I was going to open up a retail business. I thought I was surely going to do something in the retail world. I tried my hand at many things, and nothing really felt right to me. It wasn’t until I was in San Francisco, and I started to do date nights, that the light really got switched on in my head. I was like, ‘Hmm, I really do like working with families. I really do like working with babies. I’ve been a nanny literally my whole entire life, so maybe this is the route that I need to take,’ and it was literally there that that’s when it started, in San Francisco. Joseph: When you say ‘date night’—I know you and I talked about this before we did this recording—what do you mean by date night? I think you said you’re a date-night nanny when we talked before. Tamiko: Basically, parents would hire me. I lived in Silicon Valley. For anybody who doesn’t know, Silicon Valley is full of lots of executives who work super-duper long hours. Basically, families will hire me to come in and give them and their partner a date night so that they could go out, enjoy dinner, and have a night out on the town without the kiddos. Basically, I allow parents to date their spouse again. It’s super fun. Joseph: That’s so important. You’re a date-night nanny, and you’re helping couples rekindle their relationships post-children, and then what happened? What made you then decide that you wanted to turn this into something more than being a date-night nanny, and you wanted to become a sleep consultant? Tamiko: One of my clients actually said, ‘Hey, have you thought of taking what you’re teaching me and putting it online?’ What folks have to understand is, back in the day when I was doing this, there was no online courses. That was not a thing back in 2003, ’04, ’05. It literally was not even an industry back then, so to have somebody say to me, ‘Hey, what do you think about that?’ I was like, ‘Girl, what are you talking about?’ I didn’t even know what she was referring to. She basically was just like, ‘Hey, I go to school. All my classes are online, and it’s great for me because I’m able to do it whenever I’m available. I don’t have to go to an actual campus. I think this would be great for you as well.’ Because she mentioned that to me, it’s got the wheels turning, and I was like, ‘Oh, maybe I can turn this into an actual business and not just random date nights here and there and all of that.’ It was through that one conversation that basically the train left the station with that one conversation. Joseph: When you went into doing sleep consulting, it was in the form of online courses then. Is that right? Tamiko: No, it was actually in the form of in-home consult. Joseph: Okay, so you went into people’s homes one at a time. Can you explain what that was like to go from working in the corporate setting, where you’re working with all these high-end brands, to then going into somebody’s home, where they’re struggling to get their infant or baby or toddler to go to bed by 8 o’clock or 9 o’clock? Tamiko: I worked my sleep consulting alongside of my job. It was basically a side hustle for me for many years. I would work in corporate, and then after working, on the weekends is when I did my sleep consulting. I was literally driving up and down the Bay Area. I mean literally, I did the entire Bay Area, from Novato all the way to Dublin/Pleasanton. I live in San Mateo, so anybody who’s in the Bay Area, you realize how far I was driving to go to families. I did a lot of work all over the Bay Area. It was through all of the hours I put in, working with families in that one-on-one capacity, that I was able to develop my online course many years ago. I did not develop my course, Joseph, until 2013. It’s when I finally developed my course. Joseph: Five years into doing this work, okay. What do you think was the toughest part of doing this kind of work, whether it’s the self-employment aspect of it or the sleep coaching part of it? Tamiko: In the beginning, I basically worked for anybody who had a baby who didn’t sleep. I had no kind of filters on who I would work for and all that stuff. I think in the beginning, I was just happy to help people. As I continue to do the work, I realized I only want to work with people who had X, Y, and Z. I think the hardest thing for me in the beginning was turning away business because I had this fear that if I didn’t help everybody, I would literally not have any clients, but it was through that filtering process that I really was able to hone my skills and provide a better niche for myself. In the beginning, it was just hard to say no. Anybody who’s doing a business can totally amen me from the choir stand on that one. Joseph: Definitely. If somebody is listening to his, Tamiko, and they’ve got some sort of a skill or even a strength that they want to utilize in the form of creating their own business, and they’re hearing you and they’re hearing you say, ‘Wow, I was turning away clients,’ can you explain how were you even finding your first clients? Tamiko: When I first started, we did not have Facebook. We had the Yahoo Forums. Yahoo Groups was a thing back then. Joseph: Yeah, right, back in the day. Tamiko: In the end, I’m in Silicon Valley, the home of Yahoo, and so it was so exciting. Just to let people know, when I was in the Bay Area, I was one of the first, I think, 50 people to even use Twitter. This was like literally back in the day. Joseph: That’s right, 2008 was right when Twitter was I think released to the public. Tamiko: I was like the first 50 or 20 people who even got access because somebody had to invite you. It wasn’t even open. Somebody had to say, ‘Hey, Tamiko, come and get on Twitter.’ I mean this was literally when I was starting my business. We had a Yahoo Group, and basically, I helped one mom, and she went on that Yahoo Group for saving her tail up early in the game and literally screamed my praises from the mountain tops. From that one post, literally my phone rang—I’m not even kidding you all—all day every day. I would be on conference calls, in meetings, and my phone would be blowing up from moms, like, ‘Get over here and sleep pray with baby.’ Joseph: Very interesting. Tamiko: I didn’t have any kind of marketing strategy. It was literally all word of mouth when I first started. Joseph: The other thing I was hoping to hear about is—I know you mentioned that turning away clients was tough—was there anything else that was tough about running your own business and this sort of a service-based business? Tamiko: For me, it was finding time for it all, because I was still working corporate, and it was on the side. It was really trying to balance everything, because there were some days when I was working 12 hours at work, and then I would have to go to somebody’s house at night and then get up the next morning and go to work again. I mean it was just trying to balance it all without killing myself because it was so much work, which people are like, ‘Oh, it’s a good thing.’ It is a good thing when you have a system for that work, but I literally had no system and was flying by the seat of my pants. Just in general, that was hard. I think also, it was hard for me as far as rates. That was always a hot-button topic for me because I didn’t know what to charge. I just pick the number out of the skies and say, ‘This is the price.’ I didn’t have any kind of formula, system for that, and so whenever I decided to increase my rates, I was very like, ‘Oh my god, I’m increasing my rate.’ I was very nervous that people wouldn’t pay, and they were just like, ‘We don’t care. Just can you do what you say that you can do? They will pay you whatever you want us to pay you.’ Once people told me that, it released me from all the pricing sham I was doing to myself. Joseph: Pricing is a really tricky thing because there’s so much wrapped up in that, not just the financials of it but also, I guess, perceptions of self-worth and the value you offer and how much your time is worth, so that’s really tricky. How did you know that it was time to turn this from being a side hustle to your full-time job? Tamiko: Two things. When the income started to become very close to when I was working in corporate on a part-time basis, I was like, ‘Okay, girl. You have got to really look at this because you’re basically almost besting your corporate salary working part-time,’ just on the weekends and at night, ‘What could you do if you did not have corporate at all? How much money could you then make?’ Number two, just when I got sick of being in corporate. I’ve had some horrible bosses in my career, Joseph. I always say, when we have a horrible boss, that is God or the universe or whoever you call it, giving us the lesson that we need to have at that point in our life. The lesson that I had to get from my bosses when I was in corporate was you are qualified. If these idiot monkeys can do their job and get paid all these money to be basically A-holes, you’re a nice person, people love you, so there’s no reason why you can’t run your own thing and be highly successful in it. I think once I gotten my head around that, that I was capable, that I am confident, and I’m able to be successful in business, that gave me the confidence to be like ‘Okay, it’s time to leave.’ Joseph, I will tell you, I did not have a game plan. I know a lot of people are like, ‘Oh, I got to have X, Y dollars saved, and I got to have X amount of clients.’ I didn’t do any of that. I literally just said, ‘I’m done working. Today is my last day. I’ll put in my two weeks today.’ I had no money saved up. I had no backup plan. I was like, ‘I don’t care. I’m just done working in corporate,’ and I literally left. I got my first 20K client in 48 hours of leaving, and that’s when I knew that this was what I was supposed to be doing. Joseph: That is a great transition, Tamiko, into a couple of the last things I was hoping that we could talk about, which is what you’ve learned along the way from making your transition from the corporate world to running your own business. What you said there about making a leap without having a concrete plan in place is, I think, quite interesting for me because I’m somebody who struggles to move forward without a plan. What did you learn from doing that, from making the leap without having a plan, that you could now say, at this point in time, that maybe you didn’t realize at the time? Tamiko: Looking back, I think that I learned that I can do anything that I put my mind to. Anything that I say I want to do, it’s 100% possible. I don’t have to battle with the doubt anymore because I’ve proven it to myself time and time and time again. For me, it’s the best thing I ever did. Looking back, I stayed in corporate way too long, dealt with way too much BS. I should’ve left many years before I left. It’s also a reminder of myself to stop holding on so tightly to things that are no longer serving me for the fear of what may happen in the future and just do what I know I need to do and just trust that it’s going to always work out because it literally always does. Joseph: Do you have any advice for someone out there who may be listening to this and is feeling some of that same doubt that you were feeling at the time and holding on to a job that maybe they don’t feel is exactly right for them? Any advice for them about making a change? Tamiko: I suggest to leave. I think that the longer we stay in toxic environments, it does something to our psyche. It really makes us start to believe that we aren’t capable, that we can’t do things, that we are not successful. I personally have bosses who said the most horrible things to me, did the most horrific things to me. If you’re in an environment where people are constantly negative, they’re constantly bringing you down, it affects you in ways that you don’t even know is affecting you until you’re out of that environment. I didn’t even realize how ridiculous I was being treated until I was no longer in that environment. Looking back, I was like, ‘What in the world were you doing with your life?’ I just think you’re doing yourself more harm staying in a situation that is no longer serving you. Now, some people may have families, and they can’t just do like I did and just peace out without a game plan, and I can totally respect that. What you have to ask yourself though is, ‘Can I come up with a date that I say, “This is the day that I’m done.” Regardless of what’s happening in the business, regardless of what my boss expects of me, I’m done on this date, and I’m putting in my notice on this date, and then I’m going to have a quit date party. I’m going to put in my notice on this date, and then on my way, I’m going to have a quit date party,’ because whatever you’re meant to do, your dreams, they’re out waiting for you. The longer that you sit in a position that’s not serving you, the less people that you’re able to help. Joseph: That is really great advice. It is so hard, I think, to walk away from something that feels so stable. That’s just a really good reminder that you’re just burning time, and sometimes, you do have to move on. Tamiko: I think, Joseph, no job is stable. I mean literally, I’ve been in Silicon Valley during the real estate boom, and people who were making millions of dollars went from having millions of dollars to having zero dollars literally overnight. I just think that people have to realize that civility is an illusion, having a stable job is an illusion, and the longer that you keep telling yourselves these lies, the longer that you’re preventing yourself from doing what you were really put on this earth to do. I’m a strong advocate for entrepreneurship because I know the freedom it’s given me and the responsibility that I have in my life that I never had in corporate. Anybody who works at retail, you know how crazy that schedule is. You literally have no life, and so I am all for entrepreneurship, and I’m all about finding freedom on your terms for sure. Joseph: Let’s wrap up with what you’re focused on right now. What is next for you in your business? Tamiko: What’s next for me and my business is I’m working on a new offer that I mentioned in the beginning. I’ll be able to have other people who will be able to help families that I can’t help. I got to a thought for the day, I think, ‘I’m retiring from nights. I’ve been doing nights for over a decade now. I just think it’s time I pass the baton to somebody else.’ It’s finding people who can help my clients who definitely need help with nights without me having to be the person to do that. Helping other newborn care professionals, because in my industry, it’s a predominantly female-oriented industry. So many of the women that I meet in conferences and other groups, they are just struggling to make ends meet. I’ve been coaching several of them, and so I’m kind of exploring the idea of coaching newborn care professionals on how to build sustainable businesses that don’t drain the life out of you, that can give you the freedom and the life that you so desperately want. I’m working on that too. Joseph: I know you’ve also got some workshops that you run. Could you tell me a little bit about your workshops? Then we’ll wrap up. Tamiko: It basically walks parents through my system, my tips for helping you to night wean your babies so that you don’t have to be up all night every night, feeding your baby every hour. Get your seat in our workshop at SleepWellWakeHappy.com/workshop. The moms who have joined me on that workshop completely have their lives changed by what they learned, so if you’re a mom whose baby won’t go to sleep without a bottle, a breastfeeding all night long, then you definitely don’t want to miss this workshop. Joseph: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that resource, Tamiko. I just really appreciate you taking the time to share your story of leaving the corporate world to start your own business and how you navigated the challenges along the way. Again, I think you’re doing some really great work out there, and I’m sure there are plenty of parents out there who really appreciate what you’re doing for them. Thanks so much for sharing your career story on the show and best of luck to you with your new endeavor. Tamiko: Thank you so much.

Leaving one of the “best places to work” in the world like Google is a really tough choice, but that’s exactly what former Google marketer Colby Chilcote chose to do when she left to become marketing director at Huron Pines, a nonprofit organization in northern Michigan. In this episode of Career Relaunch, we’ll talk about finding meaning outside of work, coming to terms with difficult decisions, and trusting yourself especially when you’re making seemingly unconventional career moves. I also share some thoughts on how my sources of validation have evolved over time. Key Career Insights As an employee of a large company, sometimes you have to step back and recognize that your job will go on with or without you, which is especially important to remember when you have personal events or situations arise that demand your attention. Having a stable job at a reputable company can be a major source of validation, so if you lose that, you have to think about other ways you can still feel complete. Sometimes, other people can more easily see how unhappy you are before you’re able to admit it to yourself. Just because others think you’re at the perfect place to work, it doesn’t mean you should feel the same Resources Mentioned Colby was featured in this March 2019 Fast Company article, I took a huge pay cut for a more meaningful job, and it was nothing like I expected. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I challenged you to think about where you seek validation from. How much of your own sense of validation comes from within? How much it comes from others? And are you happy with this blend? Take a moment and jot down what makes you feel good about the choices you’re making in your career and life. Decide if those sources of validation feel right. If they are, use them as a guide whenever you’re wondering if you’re really on the right track. If they’re not right, make a choice right now to adjust them. About Colby Chilcote, Marketing Director at Huron Pines Colby Chilcote is Marketing Director at Huron Pines, a nonprofit organization that protects the health of the Great Lakes through the conservation and restoration of Michigan’s natural resources. Colby started her career at Google where she worked for a decade in marketing and online advertising, helping small businesses and nonprofits build an online presence. Colby holds a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Notre Dame. She lives and works in Northern Michigan where she enjoys exploring the woods and freshwater with her husband and two sons. She’s also been involved with Huron Pines opening its first nature preserve in 2019, on an 80-acre piece of property donated to the organization in 2018. The environmental nonprofit has been raising funds to support everything from trail maintenance to community programming at the preserve. The core of the Huron Pines mission is to connect people to nature in order to build vibrant and sustainable communities throughout Northern Michigan. The Hubbard Lake Nature Preserve will help achieve this goal. You can help support environmental education and learn more about the Hubbard Lake Nature Preserve or Huron Pines. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Colby know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. You can also follow host Joseph on Twitter and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting Career Relaunch A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): I was really defined by my job. I spent a lot of time trying to think more about ‘what are my other interests outside of my job’ and ‘how can I feel validated without my work being the thing that gives me that validation.’ Joseph: Hello, Colby. Welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Colby: Thank you for having me. Joseph: I would like to talk with you about a few different topics today, including your decision to move on from a very reputable company, moving from the for-profit to non-profit world. Also, I want to touch on how much salary fills satisfaction. I was hoping you could just start us off by sharing a snapshot of what’s keeping you busy right now in your career and your life. Colby: Our annual report just hit mail boxes this week. That’s been a huge project that just wrapped up. Now, I am deep in event planning and getting things ready to open our first nature preserve this June and updating a bunch of communication materials ahead of our field season, which will start in the spring and the summer. Joseph: For those people who are not familiar with your organization, which is called Huron Pines, can you just give a snapshot of exactly what Huron Pines does and your role there? Colby: Huron Pines is an environmental conservation non-profit. We’re based in Northeast Michigan, so protecting the great lakes is a huge part of what we do. We do that through a lot of on-the-ground restoration initiatives, like connecting rivers by removing dams, getting rid of invasive species, supporting native habitat, all of those things. Another huge part of our work is connecting people to nature through environmental education and outreach events, those kinds of things. Essentially, the more that we can get people out loving nature, the more that we can hopefully protect all the natural resources that we have here and then protect the long-term sustainability of the great lakes. Joseph: I know you haven’t always been the marketing director there at Huron Pines, and I was hoping we could go back in time a little bit, Colby, and go all the way back to the roughly 10-year chapter of your career at Google and in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Can you tell us about what you were doing at Google during those years? You don’t need to go all the details of every single role you had there. Maybe just give a glimpse into what you were doing in your most recent roles there, and then we can move forward from there. Colby: I had basically two chapters of jobs at Google. I started there right out of grad school. I was a liberal arts person, so I was really happy to get a job wherever anyone would take me. I was very, very lucky that Google was who took me. I started doing online advertising sales. I did that for about four years, and then I transitioned into marketing for the next five years or so. I worked in small business marketing, specifically trying to help small businesses get an online presence, like thinking about kind of local mom-and-pop shop kind of businesses, getting them to be comfortable with using the internet to help grow their businesses. That was what I spent a lot of my marketing focus on. Joseph: Aside from your functional marketing role there in your projects, can you paint a quick picture of what it’s really like to work at one of Google’s offices? Because I know that there’s always this intrigue about what it’s like to work at Google. We had people on the show before who have worked at the head office but not somebody who’s worked at a satellite office. Colby: It was a pretty nice gig. The office moved after I’ve been there for probably about eight years. We were, for a long time, right in the middle of Downtown Ann Arbor, which is really great. Then we moved to a bigger campus basically after we grew. Just the facility to work in is great. Basically all the things that you hear about are true. All the food is free. We had a chef in a cafeteria. There was a barista. There was a massage therapist on site. All of those things exist in their great perks. Joseph: Was there anything that surprised you most about working there? Colby: You start and it’s like so unbelievable that that’s a work environment, and then you, overtime, get really used to it. Then you take for granted all the things that are great about it. Now that I don’t have access to all of that, I appreciate that and realize how crazy it was that some of those trainings, there’s an Authors at Google program, where people would just come in that had written books and talk about them. Some of those kinds of things, like the fact that that was happening on a daily basis, now, is a little more mind-blowing than it was when I was there, because like I said, you just get used to all the crazy stuff that goes on there. Joseph: Before we talk about your transition out of Google, was there anything in particular that you found challenging about working at a place like Google, in spite of the fact that it sounds like there were such amazing perks and it sounds like a wonderful environment to work in? Colby: It kind of is a double-edged sword, because what is great about it is that the people that work there are really great and really self-motivated. It’s part of what makes it work and makes it successful. On the other side, there’s this culture of over-achievement and continued progress, which can be really good, but I think it facilitates burn out a little bit. It also has you constantly questioning whether you’re doing enough or whether your project is big enough to keep moving you forward in your career trajectory. It can be a really stressful place to work also. I think the mix of that stress with all the perks that come with it can be really hard to wrap your mind around both of those things. You start to question what you’re doing in your everyday job, and you’re not sure if you love it. Then you look at all these great things that you have offered to you and you think, ‘Why am I questioning this job? There’s so many great things here. Of course, I should be happy.’ I think all of that mental stuff can make it a difficult place to work. Joseph: That’s a nice segue, Colby, into what I was hoping to spend a little bit of time talking with you about now, which is your transition. Specifically, I know you eventually decided to move on from Google. Could you take me back to the moment you made your decision to leave Google? I’d be interested in hearing what was going on for you exactly at that time, both at work and also personally. Colby: Two huge life events happened that really set everything in motion. The first was that my life-long best friend passed away from cancer. Then about two weeks later, I found out that I was pregnant with my first child. There’s a lot of personal change and a lot of emotional upheaval going on that made me really start to think about what it was that was important to me, what I wanted to be spending my time on, what I wanted to see my life become. I think all of that was the catalyst for what ended up being a slow process of change that got me to where I am now but certainly made me question everything in a way that felt like, ‘Okay, I’m ready to stop wasting time on things that I don’t want to be doing, and I’m ready to start actually making changes to get where I want to be.’ Joseph: Just taking those one at a time—you mentioned your best friend passing away—was there anything in particular that you came to the realization that you feel you really can’t come to unless you had something that tragic happen in your life? Colby: One of the things that came along with it is it was unexpected but then also kind of a slow process of going through hospice and all these other things. While that was happening, I was still working. At that point, I was happy with the project that I was working on. I felt challenged in my job. I was in a good place at my job, but I still had a little bit of resentment toward it, because I kept thinking like all of these stuff is happening to me personally, and yet this job still goes on whether I’m there or not or whether these other things that matter more are happening or not. I think that that subtle shift is what changed everything else, because I think, then, when I started to be unhappy with my job, I just kept thinking I’m spending so many hours of my week on this thing that is my work. If this isn’t something I want to be doing, I can’t justify putting the time into this. I think you can come to that conclusion from a lot of different directions, but I think it certainly helped me see it more clearly. Just the idea of not wanting to waste time was driven home so much more severely than maybe it would be for somebody else, but I don’t think that that’s necessary to come to those conclusions. Joseph: How did becoming pregnant start to feed into what you wanted more of or less of in your career at that moment? Colby: I realized that I was really defined by my job, and I was a little bit worried that—because Google has an incredible maternity leave, which is great. You have six months off. I remember thinking, ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do with myself.’ I get it that I’m going to have a baby, and I don’t know what that’s like, because I haven’t had one before. I’m not sure how I’m going to feel without having a job to kind of justify my energy and time through. In anticipation of knowing that that was coming, I spent a lot of time trying to think more about what are my other interests outside of my job and how can I feel validated without my work being the thing that gives me that validation. That was part of, I think, what allowed me to slowly step away from being so enmeshed in what I have been doing in Google for so long. The other piece of it was that my husband and I had a great set up. We liked our house. We had a lot of friends. We were in a great place, but we still both grew up in more rural places. We grew up where we could be outside on our own and play in the woods. We did start to talk about like, ‘Is this where we want to be long-term? Do we want to be in a metropolitan area? Is this where we want to raise kids?’ Those things definitely came together to start us thinking about making bigger life changes. Joseph: How did you ultimately come to your decision to leave Google and then move out to Grayling, Michigan? Colby: It was slow in that, from the time that I first found out I was pregnant to the time we moved here, was about two years. I think things really shifted after I came back to work from that first maternity leave. I wasn’t very happy in the role that I was in. There was a honeymoon period of like, ‘Oh, this is great. I’m excited to be back. I’m not at home with the baby, which is great, a nice relief. I can have a coffee,’ but I just wasn’t really happy in the role that I was in. I’ve been on the same team, working with people that I really liked, but the actual project that we were working on we’ve been working on for almost four years or something. It was very clear that I had kind of ran out of my ability to keep growing and that what was going to be expected of me was that I did keep growing in order to have good performance reviews and get promoted and all that stuff, but I couldn’t really see a path where I was going to have enough responsibility. I was pretty miserable, but I didn’t realize it. My husband was the one who would say to me like, ‘You’re not very happy,’ when I would come home from work. I would say, ‘No, no, no. It’s fine. It’s fine. It’s not so bad.’ It probably took six or nine months for me to really wrap my own head around how unhappy I was and that something needed to change. I eventually came to the conclusion that, regardless of what happened with the rest of our life, I was going to have to find a different job. That was the first huge step, because we had talked about moving. We had talked about other things, but it was always, ‘Well, I don’t know if I could leave Google.’ It just basically got to the point where there weren’t going to be opportunities where I was, like in our office. I couldn’t keep going the way that I was going. As soon as I mentally flipped that switch, a bunch of other opportunities came up. I feel like from there, everything happened like a set of dominoes fell probably within a year from that point. We had moved, and I had started a new job. Joseph: It sounds like you ultimately decided to move and leave Google. At the same time, I’m imagining that it’s probably hard to walk away from such a reputable company that also offers so many benefits. What was the hardest part for you about leaving a place like Google behind? Colby: The idea of it was the hardest. I think once I finally made the decision, it wasn’t as hard. Getting to that point was really difficult, because we used to joke about it. Everybody that works at Google talks about the golden handcuffs and how you literally, at least when I was working there, Google was voted the best place to work for many years when I worked there. It’s like a weird mental game where you feel like, ‘If I don’t love this job and it’s literally the best place you can work, how am I going to find another job that I really love?’ I felt like I had to do something super different or something that was so much better in order to justify leaving. I just, for so long, couldn’t put my finger on what that next thing would be or what possibly would be better. That was the hardest part. I think it’s just coming to terms with the fact that just because everybody else on the outside may have thought that it was the perfect place to be didn’t mean that it was the perfect place for me to be. Joseph: Just shifting gears, Colby, to your time then when you moved on to Huron Pines and also when you decided to move from Ann Arbor to Grayling, what was that transition like for you? I’m specifically interested in some of the things you realized that you gave up and how you thought through that, which I know you eluded to earlier, letting go some of those great benefits at a place like Google. Colby: My husband and I had hundreds of discussions over the course of a couple of years about whether or not we could really make this move and whether or not it was what we wanted to do. I think because we planned really well and talked through every worst case scenario, we felt pretty comfortable with our decision before we even fully made it. For example, we lived in a city where you could walk to a gourmet grocery store. It was a few blocks from our house, and there are places to eat and things to do. We would talked about all these thing are great, but is this important to us or is it more important that we have a yard and that our kids can go to the lake and that we can do things outside? At some point, we sat down and made a list of what are the five things that we would want. Where would we want to live? What would we want to do if we won the lottery? That was also one of the pieces that helped put some this stuff into play, because we realized that what we wanted wasn’t actually like that unobtainable. One of the things was we really wanted to live on the water. We never would have been able to do that in a metro area because it’s just way too expensive. We started thinking, how do we make these things happen? Are they feasible for us? It didn’t seem like were making a big sacrifice, because we were sort of trading one life for another. It’s more what it felt like. We decided that we liked the option behind door number two better. We were very committed to having a different kind of life. That life was more built around natural resources. It was built around being closer to our families and having kids and jobs where we felt like we were making more of an impact. Those are all things that are important to us, and so when things started to fall into place that we could make those things happen, leaving behind the money and the perks and the restaurants and all that kind of stuff, it just didn’t feel like we are making a big sacrifice. Joseph: From your career journey, Colby, I’d be really interested in getting your honest, non-candy-coated perspective on a few things because you just mentioned money. I was wondering, can we just talk for a moment about salary, because I know you had a change to your salary? I’m just wondering if you could explain what impact, if any, that had on both your life and also your overall satisfaction. Colby: On the one hand, yes, I had a significant pay cut to switch jobs. On the other hand—maybe this is not good to say—but I think that Google’s salary was also pretty inflated. From where I stared to where I ended up, I was promoted a couple of times. At some points through the course of those 10 years, Google decided to give every employee a 10% pay bump, like a lot of weird things like that happened. When I left, I think that the salary was inflated for the Midwest for sure. I worked for a company that was a tech company based in California. I know they pay different amounts based on where your office is, but still I think even in Ann Arbor, Detroit area, I would have probably been hard-pressed to find a job where I was making an equivalent salary. I think I let go of that idea of salary equivalency when I decided I don’t want to be at Google anymore. That was one of the first things that had to go out the window. I figured I wasn’t going to find it. I also figured if I could let that piece go, it’d probably be a lot easier for me to find something else. I also had always had some interest in non-profit work. I did some technology training for non-profits with Google Tools for a couple of years when I was at Google. I had always had in the back of my mind that a non-profit transition might be a good fit for me. When we started talking about making the move and changing career paths, I had also thought it was likely that not only would I be moving to Northern Michigan where the salaries in general were just going to be lower because the cost of living was lower, but that I might be going into an industry that was just going to, in general, have lower salaries. We did a lot of planning for it. We made sure that we paid off student loans, that we didn’t have car payments, anything that we had to get rid of to get rid of overhead so that we could still have a comfortable life without having to worry about how much we are bringing in. That was how we handled it, and then the salary thing became less of an issue. Joseph: It sounds like you’ve made some lifestyle tradeoffs that allowed you to then tolerate the salary change. Colby: Yeah. Joseph: What about benefits? Some listeners out there maybe have some cushy benefits and perks in their current roles as you did at Google. I guess I just want to ask, do you miss the benefits at all? If so, what do you miss? If not, why do you not miss them? Colby: That is a piece that I definitely miss. I think in some cases, it was like a bit of ‘ignorance is bliss,’ because Google was my first real job. It was the first time I had benefits. I also didn’t realize how good they were. By the time we left, right after I had my second son, and that was also planned, I decided I want to have at least two kids, and I want to have them while I still work at Google, because I want to be able to have all the healthcare and all the maternity leave and everything built in. That was planned, but on the other hand, because we just had two new, small children, I didn’t really anticipate the healthcare needs of having kids because that was new to our whole life experience. I think that maybe if we had waited longer, I might have been really nervous about giving up that benefit piece, knowing that it wasn’t just about my husband and me staying healthy. You just don’t know what’s going to happen with kids and what they’re going to need. Luckily, we were a little bit like, ‘It’ll be fine.’ We definitely talked about it. We were worried about it, but I think, again, we were just like, ‘Well, this is how much we anticipated it would potentially cost if we have to pay for benefits. We’ll just figure that out,’ which we’ve been able to do, but certainly it’s more expensive, and it’s also the coverage is just not as good. Google has very, very good benefits. On the other hand, with Huron Pines now, we’ve had conversations about this. Now, we’re looking into other insurance options and trying to figure out how to bring better healthcare benefits to the staff. Part of it is finding a place to land where you can also try to either affect some change or feel like you have some security still. Joseph: One last question about this before we talk about some of the thing you’ve learned having now spent some time in that non-profit world that seems very much cause-based. Have you found that it has provided you with that kind of meaning in your career that you were seeking when you made the move? Colby: I’m much more intrinsically motivated, which is also part of why the salary and all that stuff is nice. Ultimately, I just want to feel like I’m doing a good job. I want to be a hardworking person that can show something for the work that I’ve done. It’s really nice to know that even if I’m having a month where I’m really busy and I feel stressed out and I’m working extra hours, that I’m doing that for a bigger cause than just my own benefit or something like marketing deadline. I think that really helps justify the time that I’m putting in, because I think I always have that mentality regardless of what the job was. Once I get involved in something, I get really involved. I was aware enough of that to know that whatever the next job I had, I was going to need to really care about it, or else I was going to fall into that trap of spending all my time on something and then walking away and thinking like, ‘In 10 years, is anyone going to care about this?’ I feel like in 10 years, people are going to care that we have protected forests and places for people to have recreational access. Those things actually really do matter, so it justifies the amount of time and effort that I put into it, which does feel a lot more satisfying. Joseph: Before we wrap up, I’d also like to talk about some of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your career journey. One of the things that we spoke about before doing this recording was you mentioned a sense of relief when you chose to finally move from Google out to your current world there in Huron Pines and also from Ann Arbor to a more rural setting. Can you just explain what that relief was about or what you meant by that? Colby: For so long, it just seemed like I’m in the best job that exists, so how can I be unhappy here? I kept feeling like it was my fault. I’ve got to just be more gracious and appreciate this job more or something, because ‘why am I not liking this?’ When we finally made the move and I started at Huron Pines and I was really excited about the work that I was doing and I had more responsibility and I had more autonomy, it just all really clicked like, ‘No. That was just the wrong fit for me. This is a job that I want to be doing, and that made all the difference in the world. That, I think, was the biggest lesson of the whole thing is like I should have trusted my gut sooner, and that it’s okay to walk away from something, even if everybody else thinks you’re crazy. You have to do what is the right thing for you. As soon as I did that, the relief was like everything didn’t come crashing down around me. I was actually much more satisfied and much happier, and that felt amazing. Joseph: Having made this move from for-profit to non-profit, is there something you now know about making this transition that you wished you had known before? Colby: I think what I wish I had known was that it was okay to take a risk. If you are trusting your gut in thinking things through and making informed decisions, you’re going to end up in an okay place. I think I was afraid for so long like, ‘What if I leave, and I’m just thinking the grass is greener on the other side, and I get a different job, and I realize I’ve made a horrible mistake?’ I think, for a long time, that kept me from leaving. I don’t know what someone could have said to me, but I wish I had had a crystal ball and could see, just because this a nice set up doesn’t mean it’s the end-all-be-all of jobs and that you should trust that what feels right for you is going to make you happier in the end. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I think it’s so hard to trust your gut when everything on paper seems like you should be happy with what you have. I think you’re making such an important point here that you, sometimes, just have to trust your intuition in spite of the fact that everyone else might think, and even you might think that, ‘Wow, this is probably as good as it’s going to get.’ Finally, what have you learned about yourself, having moved from Ann Arbor to Grayling, going from a more urban environment to a more rural environment? Colby: The good thing is that I think it validated a lot of things that I suspected, that having autonomy in my work, making an impact, spending more time with the people that I love, with my family, with my friends, that that’s way more valuable to me than money could ever be. I always assumed that, but it was hard. I never tested it. It was easy for me to think I don’t really care about all this extra stuff that I’m getting, because I work at Google. What I want are to have a job that I feel good about when I come home and to be able spend time with my family and have a life that I feel happy about outside of work. Now that I’ve kind of put my money where my mouth is, it’s been a good thing that the experiment worked out in my favor. I think that is the biggest thing I learned. It’s that what I suspected was true, and I’m a lot happier for it. It doesn’t really make any difference to me. My ego isn’t fueled by how much money I’m making. It’s really more about what I am spending my time on. I feel better about what I’m spending all my time on now. Joseph: Great. Before we go, I can’t let you go without talking a little bit about some of your work there at Huron Pines. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about one of your initiatives there, which is the Hubbard Lake Nature Preserve opening this summer. Colby: We were extremely lucky at the end of last summer. We had a couple donate a property to us on Hubbard Lake, which is on the Northeast side of Michigan. That’s not too far Lake Huron. It’s an 80-acre property. It’s got two miles of trails. It’s got a couple buildings on the property that we hope to use for classrooms and community programming. It will be our first nature preserve. This summer, we’re going to start opening to the public for a daily recreational use, so people can come out and hike and bird watch and do that kind of stuff out there. We’re also launching an event series. Once a month, we will have different things from environmental and nature walks for families to workshops on how get rid of invasive species. We’re going to do a run and a yoga class out there. We’re going to do an art class. We got a ton of stuff going on. I’m super excited about that, because it’s just like a whole new opportunity for Huron Pines and for people to get out and experience nature. We’re all really excited for people to start using it this summer. Joseph: Very cool. If people want to support environmental education or learn more about the nature preserve, where can they go? Colby: Our website is HuronPines.org. If you’re interested specifically in the nature preserve, it’s just HuronPines.org/hubbard-lake. Just to learn more about what we do, you can just go to our website. Joseph: Thank you so much, Colby, for telling us more about your career choices and how you thought through prioritizing what mattered the most to you and most importantly trusting your gut when making these kinds of really important professional decisions. Best of luck with your role there at Huron Pines, your life in Grayling, and the Hubbard Lake Nature Preserve. Colby: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

When it comes to your health, you never really know when things can take a turn. Caroline Yeats shares her story of relaunching her career as an investment banker to become a nutritionist after being diagnosed with incurable Stage IV bowel cancer in her early 30s. We’ll discuss investing your time in only those things that matter and treating each day as if it’s your last. The week we had planned to record this conversation, Caroline actually had to have a sudden, emergency heart surgery, but she very generously insisted on still doing this recording, which gives you a glimpse into her positive attitudes about life and work. During today’s Mental Fuel segment, I’ll share the steps I’m trying to take to create the future I desire. Key Career Insights When you’re in a balanced place in life and invested your time doing things you care about, you can truly enjoy each day. Doing things that make you miserable is not worth it because life is just too short. Thinking about important questions can potentially change the rest of your life. What do you want? What makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? What can you do about it? Imagine what you want your ideal life to look like in 5 or 10 years. What can you do right now to make that happen? You have to decide which issues you will allow to consume you, then reconsider whether it’s worth the stress. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about deciding exactly what you want your life to look like in the future. Decide what specific actions you’ll take right now to maximize the chances of making this vision come true. While there are no guarantees things will turn out exactly as you hope, you might as well do everything you can to try and turn your hopes into reality. About Caroline Yeats, Nutritionist Caroline Yeats started her professional life in investment banking after graduating with a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics from The University of Oxford. After five years, she joined one of her banking clients, Xstrata Mining, as an Investor Relations Manager. Following the company’s takeover, she was a founding member of a new mining venture, X2 Resources, but a serious medical issue led her to leave her corporate life behind to pursue a career as a nutritionist and found Nutritious Living. She’s currently completing her studies while writing three books, caring for her toddler and undergoing treatment for incurable stage IV bowel cancer. Follow Caroline on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Caroline know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. You can also follow host Joseph on Twitter and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): Imagine yourself in 5 or 10 years’ time and your ideal life, and then think about what you can do right now to make that happen. Don’t wait for 5 or 10 years. Start doing things now that mean that that will be a reality. Joseph: Good morning, Caroline. Thank you so much for coming on to Career Relaunch. Caroline: Good morning. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to take part. Joseph: There are so many things I want to talk with you about today, Caroline. I just want to start by saying I really don’t feel like we can do justice to everything you’ve been through in a half-hour conversation, but I’m going to try. I’m hoping to talk about your decision to leave the world of banking behind and also the impact your health has had on your career decisions and outlook on life. Can you start by sharing a glimpse into what’s been happening in your life, even over the past week? Because especially as it relates to your health, I understand you’ve just come out of an emergency heart operation. Caroline: I have indeed. We didn’t know I would be able to record this, because two days ago, I was still in the hospital having been admitted to A&E on Thursday with fluid around my heart which had to be drained in an emergency. Perhaps let’s take a step back from that. Last year, I was diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer. That means it has spread to various places in my body. My prognosis is poor if I’m honest. It’s an incurable condition although I am having treatment. I’ve been treated with works of surgery, radiotherapy, along with chemotherapy fortnightly, and I’m responding well to it. That’s kind of where I am right now, and I think it’s important to get that because it had influenced a lot of my career decisions over the past few years. Perhaps to step back a little bit further and give you a very brief history of me, I am an Oxford graduate. I studied philosophy, politics, and economics, and the typical way of going into the city and starting working in investment banking. This was 13 years ago now. I went to Deutsche Bank and spent five years there. It was a fantastic career as an early 20-something. I learned a huge amount. I worked with incredible people, both within the bank and on the client side. I was in a client-facing role in corporate broking. I got to spend a lot of time with big companies and CEOs and CFOs, which was just amazing really, as somebody starting out with their career. It was something that I need that I wouldn’t want to do forever. It was very intense. It was very long hours. I didn’t have much of a life, so after five years, I actually moved to one of my clients, a mining company called Xstrata. It’s a very big company at the time. I spent a few years with them. They were then taken over, and I stayed with the CEO and CFO of that company, and we set up a new mining company, which is sort of private equity backed. We raised a big fund to go out and buy mining assets. Unfortunately, that didn’t work out. Then everything kicked off with my health, and three years ago, I decided to leave the city world altogether and started training as a nutritional therapist. That’s where I am at the moment. Joseph: I definitely want to talk more about each of those two pivots in your career. Before we do that, you alluded to the cancer. For those listeners who aren’t familiar with the various stages of cancer, what exactly is stage four bowel cancer, also known as secondary or metastatic colorectal cancer? Caroline: Stage four, as you rightly said, is also metastatic cancer. It just means that the cancer has spread from its original location into other organs. For me, I have cancer that began in the bowel. I had a number of polyps, which are small growths found in my colon, which is the lower part of your bowel, three years ago. That was kind of the start of my cancer journey. At the time, we thought that they were only pre-cancerous. It turns out that was probably not the case unfortunately. I had a couple of small operations, but I was otherwise considered fine until last year, when I started suffering from a bad back which, to cut a very long story short, turned out to be a tumor in my spine. When I had various scans, it was also discovered that I had cancer in my lungs, in my liver, my pelvis, and in various lymph nodes. What had started in my bowel—they discovered that, through biopsies and through tests of the tumor cells—had spread to various spaces, and that’s what made it stage four. Interestingly, I don’t have any tumors in my bowel, which stumps everybody, but that’s just one of the examples of how strange this cancer is, I’m afraid. Joseph: I know that prognosis is a really funny word because nothing is definitive when it comes to cancer, but can you share what the prognosis is here for you, especially as it relates to your stage four bowel cancer, or at least what you have been told? Caroline: The prognosis for stage four bowel cancer is very poor. Five-year survival rates are well under 10%, but there’s a couple of things to say about that. You’ve already alluded to it. Prognosis is an odd thing because all the doctors can do is look at averages, and there is nothing average about my situation to be honest. The majority of bowel cancer patients are over 70. You have to think that when you’re over 70, your life expectancy is not too long anyway, so being young is a positive for the start. Secondly, everybody just responds so differently to treatment. We didn’t know whether chemotherapy was going to work for me, but actually, it’s working superbly. At my last scan, all but one of my tumors had shrunk. If treatment hadn’t worked, my life expectancy last year was 6 to 12 months, but it’s kind of irrelevant because treatment is working. It’s very much now ‘how long is a piece of string.’ My view is I feel well most of the time. Chemo is very hard, but between chemo, I feel very well. I just live life like today. None of us know what’s around the corner, so I try my best not to focus on what might happen but just to focus on what I can control and what I can do today. Joseph: You mentioned that the majority of people who have this are in their 70s. We should point out that you’re actually in your early 30s. Caroline: Yup, that’s right. I’m 34. Joseph: We’re going to come back to this, Caroline. I’d like to get into more detail about your cancer and how it’s affected your career perspectives, but I’d like to start by talking about your career journey, which is the focus of this show. You haven’t always been a nutritionist. You did allude to the time you were at Deutsche Bank as an investment banker. Can we go back to that time, and can you just explain what you used to do during your days as an associate at Deutsche Bank? Then we’ll move forward from there. Caroline: I started Deutsche Bank straight out of university. I did internship, and then I went on to the graduate program, starting as analyst. In time, I was promoted to associates. I worked in a division called corporate broking, which is equity advisory for UK corporates specifically. We used to have set clients. We had an ongoing relationship, and we would help them with anything to do with the equity market. It would be everything from investor roadshows and results to transactions. If they were doing a merger, if they were doing equity issue, we would be involved in this sort of investor market-facing side of that. It was a very hands-on, client-facing role. We worked closely with the mergers and acquisitions and the equity capital markets teams and the debt side as well. As an analyst and associate, you spend a lot of your time writing pitch works, but I was lucky that I could go to a lot of client routines as well. I used to go on investor roadshows. I had a lot of face-to-face time with the clients, which was always for me probably the most enjoyable part. Joseph: I know that investment banking has got to be at least traditionally seen as one of the most premier, high-profile industries out there which I know attracts a lot of people to the industry. After about five years, you mentioned you decided to leave. What made you want to leave that industry behind? Caroline: It certainly had a reputation as one of the best industries to get into. Out of university, it’s what everybody was rushing to do. The starting salary was good. It was glamorous and exciting to a lot of extent, but it is very hard work. I mean my hours were very, very long. I was in it 7:30 in the morning because we got in before markets open, and I frequently worked until kind of 11 to 12 o’clock at night. It’s hard. It’s hard to have a life when you’re doing that all the time. You physically and emotionally burn out. You don’t get to see your friends very much. I’m constantly having to cancel things. I find it very hard to date. All of these things add up. For me, although I did enjoy the work a lot—and I would actually go and do it again. I wouldn’t change how I started my career, but—I always knew that the time would come when I wanted to leave and do something that was a bit more flexible, a bit more sustainable. One of my clients, Xstrata, approached me, and they were looking for a new investor relations manager, which essentially was the internal version of my role at the bank. I knew the role very, very well. I knew the person who’s doing it. I got along with him very well. It was a company I absolutely loved. I had a huge amount of respect for the team there. It was a very young company. It had grown from very little very fast. They were constantly doing transactions, mergers, acquisitions, raising equity, buying new mines, big projects. It was a very global business. I jumped at the chance when they approached me and asked if I was interested in joining the company. Joseph: Was that a difficult decision for you to leave behind, at least on the surface, the perceived more glamorous world of iBanking to focus much more on investor relations? What was hard about that? Caroline: There were definitely challenges involved. I think the harder thing for me was making the decision that now is the time to leave. I’d actually already made that decision when Xstrata approached me. The fact that they approached me and they came up with this very attractive role, which it was well-paid, there was a lot of global travel, there were different perks to investment banking, made it much, much easier actually. I think I’d been struggling to work out, if I left investment banking, what I was going to do. As you said, there was definitely a reticence in taking potentially a salary cut or doing something that was maybe more mundane, so I was really lucky that I didn’t have to do that. I didn’t take a salary cut, and I was doing something that actually, day-to-day, I found even more exciting than I had found investment banking. Joseph: You’re there at Xstrata, it sounds like things are going really well for you. It seems like you enjoyed the work. What happened? Caroline: Not that long after I joined—it was two years after I joined—Xstrata were bought out by their majority shareholder, a company called Glencore. There was an option to go to Glencore. I would’ve had to move to Switzerland, which I was totally open to doing. I definitely considered staying with the new company, but the CEO and CFO decided they weren’t going to. It had started as a merger, and then it became increasingly hostile as it went on. They decided they wanted to make a move, and they asked me to join them to set up their new venture, which was then called X2 Resources. One of the reasons I’d moved to Xstrata was because I liked the team, and I absolutely jumped at the chance. I’m very well with the CEO. I found him to be an exceptional individual, very entrepreneurial, very forward-thinking, and I was really excited by the chance to stay and work with that team and do something of our own. I felt like I had no reason not to. I had no ties. I didn’t have a family at the time, and this was just an opportunity that was only ever going to come along once in a lifetime, so I jumped at it. It was amazing. I mean I learned how to build a business very, very fast. There were six of us in the end. The others were very senior people from Xstrata. We raised over $5 billion, which was a phenomenal amount of money. The challenge is banking, because unfortunately, the market didn’t go the way we thought. We thought we were at the bottom, and we were going to be able to take the upside. X2 did actually get folded. I’d already left by that point, but it was a real shame because it was a really exciting journey and a great idea. The timing just wasn’t right unfortunately. Joseph: You mentioned you left before they folded. Can you take me back to what happened with regards to your health at that moment? What was happening for you at that time? Caroline: In spring of 2016, I had a colonoscopy, which is where they put a camera inside you and have a look, because I’d had some very severe irritable bowel syndromes, bowel issues, noticing blood. I’m very open about these things. I think it’s really important for people to raise awareness and for people to be aware of these symptoms. It’s not something that’s the most fun thing to talk about, but that’s what was happening inside after some investigation. They found a tumor. It was bleeding, which was why there was blood. Luckily, it wasn’t obstructing my bowel, but it was fairly large. I had operation to remove that and a number of other polyps which are small growths. They were all tested, and it was a very scary time. I mean I will never ever forget that moment when I came out of that first colonoscopy, and the doctor sat me down and said, “I’m really sorry, but we think you’ve got cancer. I was 31, and I was in brilliant health. I used to run marathons. I went to the gym all the time. I thought I ate well. It was a huge shock to be honest. The tests all came back and showed that they were precancerous, which means that there were some abnormal changes in the cell growth, but it wasn’t full-blown cancer. The doctors were very confident that just taking them out was the end. They didn’t need to do anything else. Unfortunately, I really should’ve been put on a cancer pathway, and they should’ve done more investigations, but I was just so much an exception to the rule. I was young. Bowel cancer in young people is very rare. It’s less than 2% of people diagnosed with bowel cancer are under 40, and I was such a healthy person in so many other ways. I don’t blame anybody for missing something. It’s very unfortunate, but it is what it is. What it did was made me kind of sit back and go, ‘Hang on. I need to reprioritize my life a little bit,’ and I asked the really big questions: What do I want from life? What’s making me happy? What makes my unhappy? What can I do about it? Although I absolutely loved what I’d done with X2, it was clear that things weren’t going that well for the company. I started to think about what I might want to do next. I’d also got married, and we wanted to have a family. I knew that the job I was doing, I was constantly on an airplane. I had to fly back from Australia after 48 hours to get to my home-do. It was a full-on job, and I knew that wasn’t sustainable for me for the long term, so I started thinking about what else I might want to do. At the same time, with the health scare, I was always very interested in food. I’d actually already had a food blog that was just a bit of a hobby. I started looking a lot more into nutrition and into qualifications about it. Originally, I just wanted to do a course that would increase my knowledge to help me look after myself and ensure that I looked after my bowel and my issues didn’t return. The more I looked into it, the more I thought, ‘Actually, this is a really growing sector and something that I’m really interested in. I think I can make a career off it.’ I enrolled at the College of Naturopathic Medicine, which is in Central London, to study as a nutritional therapist for the next few years. It was part-time. Initially, I thought I could maybe do my job and study, and it very quickly became apparent that wasn’t going to happen. The opportunity came to walk away from X2 Resources. It was a really hard decision at the time. I didn’t want to step away from this thing that I’d been part of from the beginning and had a very strong emotional attachment to, but I knew that I had to make a change, and it was the right thing to do at the time. It was quite scary. Joseph: I was wondering, to what extent did the initial cancer diagnosis influence your decision to walk away from X2? Caroline: Hugely, because it was the thing that made me question what I wanted in the longer term. I realized that the industry I was in and the role I was in wasn’t what I wanted longer term. The cancer diagnosis made my husband and I sit down and go, ‘Actually, we really want a family, and we want a family now—we’re not that young—and I need to find a job that is going to be more amenable to that and more flexible for the future.’ Joseph: Before we talk about what happened to you last September—you mentioned family—what was happening for you during this time when you were making the shift out of X2, related to starting your own family? Caroline: In the end, I left X2, started college, and got pregnant in the space of three weeks. It was quite a big month for me, that one. Once I made the decision that I was going to start studying nutrition, and even before I left X2, my husband and I decided we start trying for a baby because we decided that was what was important and worked out what I was going to do. It worked quite exactly, but I knew I’d signed up for this course. I knew I was going to start studying. I knew that in three years’ time, I would be a rather qualified therapist. I had this longer-term plan. I didn’t really know what I was going to do in the interim, but I just knew that priorities were shifting, and actually, getting pregnant happened fairly quickly for us, which is brilliant. Joseph: It sounds like a ton happened to you in 2016. You had that initial cancer scare, which at least according to the doctors, were precancerous polyps that were cleared. You left X2. You got pregnant. I know a couple of years later, you got another diagnosis, which we’re going to get to. Before we talk about that, what was your life like after this initial health scare and after you left the corporate world? Caroline: Last September, it was when I was diagnosed with stage four cancer. Just to cover those two years, this was autumn 2016. I started college. I left X2. I was doing odd, little bits of freelance work, but I kind of was giving myself a break as well. I was totally exhausted to be honest. I think 10 years of city and corporate careers had really taken that toll. Also, the shock and the emotional impact of the original precancerous diagnosis, even the operations aside, I think the emotional side of it hit me when I stopped. When I realized I was pregnant, I was like, ‘You know what? I’m just going to take a really extended maternity leave. I’m going to enjoy pregnancy. I’m going to enjoy studying. I’m going to have a baby. When the baby’s born, I will then work out what I want to do getting back into work properly.’ I was really lucky, very lucky, because financially, I was able to do that, and I was really able to get stuck in college and spend time on it, which is brilliant. I was learning so much. Studying biomedicine whilst pregnant was fascinating because I was learning about what was going on in my body, and I was eating really well because I was learning a lot about what I needed to do to fill my body properly. That was all amazing. I had a very healthy pregnancy, a very healthy birth. When my son was nine-months old, I started suffering from back aches. That was a year ago, beginning of 2018. I didn’t think too much of it for quite a while, but it got more and more severe to the point that I was in total agony all of the time and couldn’t move. I finally had an MRI, and it showed that one of my vertebrae had collapsed. I was whisked into A&E at the Royal London, where I stayed up to 10 days while they did lots and lots of investigations and tried to work out what was going on. They eventually discovered that it was a tumor, and I had cancer, and then all the cancer investigation started. Last autumn was a whirlwind quite frankly – being in and out of hospital, lots and lots of tests, major spinal surgery because they had to correct where my spine had collapsed. I now have 12 metal pins in my spine. Then radiotherapy on the spine to take the tumor down, and then I started chemotherapy, which I’ve been on ever since. Yes, quite a lot to deal with, but I’ve managed to keep going with college pretty much. I think it had been a time which had been good. It’s kept me sane in some ways. Joseph: I know that there’s probably no way to convey this in words or to do this justice, but can you explain what exactly ran through your head when you were definitively diagnosed with cancer? Caroline: I don’t know if I can. I think my head was just buzzing for about a month. I mean it happened in so many different parts. I was told it was cancer after I’d had this stint in the hospital, and my husband immediately went into shock. For me, it didn’t come as an enormous surprise because of my history. I mean it did and it didn’t. Nobody wants to be told you’ve got stage four cancer obviously, and it was a shock, but I think for me, there was almost relief because I’d been in so much pain for so long, it kind of felt, ‘Wow, we’ve got an answer. We can actually start doing something about it.’ I knew enough about cancer that my assumption was there’s so many different ways to treat cancer, even stage four cancer. Let’s crack on, and we can do this. I’m healthy in so many ways. I’m going to be fine. It was only a few weeks later that I was told, actually, this cancer isn’t curable, and I really started looking into the details about bowel cancer and the stats and so on. I think that’s when I got more of a shock. It was really hard. I mean being told that you have a poor prognosis and you’re terminally ill at 34 with a baby is an impossible situation to be put in. It’s really, really hard, but I’m a naturally very positive person, and I started writing about my journey. I started a blog which was hugely therapeutic to me and helpful for a lot of my friends and family as well. Really, I started it purely to get my head around what was going on. I feel lucky that I have a lot of knowledge about the body and basic medical knowledge because that really helped me understand what was going on and be able to speak to doctors. Whilst my prognosis hasn’t changed—I am still incurable—the fact that chemo is working well so far, and I feel pretty well—I don’t feel terminally ill. I go out for runs. I’m studying college. I look after my baby. It’s had lasting impacts. I’ve lost a lot of function of my hands because of the spinal tumor, so I’ve had to relearn how to do certain things. I can’t write perfectly. I can’t hold a pen. Things like that have been very difficult, but I’ve adapted, and I’ve learnt new ways of doing things. It’s a struggle at times, don’t get me wrong. I have my moments where I break down in tears and go, ‘It’s not fair,’ and, ‘I can’t do this anymore,’ but most of the time, I pick myself up and I go, ‘I’ve got a really great life, and I’ve got a lot going for me, and so I’m going to enjoy that. I’m going to live it today.’ Joseph: I would imagine that wrestling with this can take you in one of a couple of directions. One is that you feel enormously down, and it sounds like you have had those moments. The other direction is that it actually empowers you in some way. How have you been able to maintain such a positive outlook? What do you think it is about you that allows you to feel empowered and to feel so positive in spite of the time you’re going through right now? Caroline: I think there’s a couple of things. Firstly, I think it’s because I’ve had three years to prepare myself for this. Because I had that initial diagnosis, it made me sit back and ask a lot of questions and put my life on a track that I really wanted it to be on. The past three years had been about me switching from a very career-driven, very busy, very stressed, not unhappy but a very stressed person, to someone who has pretty much everything they want in life. I mean I really do. I have an amazing son. He’s just awesome. I have a wonderful husband. We have a lovely house. I am studying, which I really enjoy. I’m on track to do a career, which I genuinely think I could do for the rest of my life. It will be flexible. There are so many directions I could take it in. It’s an area I’m fascinated in. I am so lucky in so many ways, and I’ve done and achieved so much in life, which I’m very proud of. I think also, I’m not sitting here going, ‘Oh my god, I want to do this. I need to do that. I’ve never done this.’ Of course there are things I want to do, but I feel like I’ve done so much that I’m in a very balanced place, and that just really helps me enjoy every day. Cancer has just become a part of my life. At the moment, I’m in a good routine with treatments, and I know that I have four or five days a fortnight where I feel, quite frankly, rough, and I just have to sit in the sofa and watch Netflix and, hey, you know what? It’s kind of fun sometimes doing that. It’s just something I wouldn’t have been able to do three years ago because I would never have given myself that down time. I’ve had to learn to take things slower, which has been a real challenge for me. On the days I feel good, then you’re right. I feel very empowered, and I really embrace that in the moment, and I’m like, ‘I know what I want to do, and I only do things that I enjoy or that make me better. I don’t do things that I don’t want to do or that make me miserable, because life quite frankly is too short.’ Joseph: It’s funny. I was giving a talk last week, Caroline, at London Business School to some alumni about career change, and one of the things that someone in the audience asked me that I think I didn’t have a very good answer to is ‘in the absence of something major, like cancer or a health diagnosis or a death in your family, how do you force yourself to stop and reevaluate whether you’re heading in the right direction you want to be heading in your career and your life?’ What thoughts do you have on how you can create some stopping power in your life to ensure you’re taking the time, it sounds like you’ve taken, to recalibrate? Caroline: It’s such a good question. You’re absolutely right. It’s too easy to just head down, plow on, and not stop and take the time to ask these questions. My first post on my blog is my background, and I wrote down those questions that I asked myself. I say to people, I say to all my friends, ‘Please, just sit down and ask yourself the big questions. What do you want? What makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? What can you do about it? Just spend a day thinking about those if that’s all you’ve got, just one day thinking about those, and it might change the rest of your life.’ So many of my friends have said, me being ill has put things in perspective for them, and they have started asking those questions, and I think that’s wonderful. It’s so hard because there are always constraints. I was very lucky. I did 10 years in well-paid jobs, so financially, I was able to take some time out to think about this. For a lot of people, that’s an enormous constraint. They can’t stop. They can’t just quit their job, because they can’t afford to, and I completely get that. There isn’t really an answer to that, but it’s the more you can try and step back and go and take yourself on a holiday or take yourself away for a long weekend purely to think about the big things. It doesn’t mean everybody has to go and quit their career straight away. It might be much, much smaller tweaks that you need to make, but I think you have to have a bigger picture. One thing somebody said to me when I was first diagnosed was, imagine yourself in 5 or 10 years’ time and your ideal life. What’s it look like? Where are you? What are you doing? Then think about what you can do right now to make that happen. Don’t wait for 5 or 10 years. Start doing things now that mean that that will be a reality. That’s what I started doing three years ago, so I’m already in a good place there, but I think it’s really good advice actually. What are you doing towards a bigger picture? Joseph: That’s a good segue, Caroline, into a few of the things I was hoping we could talk about—before we wrap up with what you’re focused on right now with your nutrition work—which are some of the things that you’ve learned along the way of not only your career change journey but also your cancer journey. I know that some people who listen to this show sometimes are going through tough times, mostly related to their jobs but also related to other aspects of their lives outside of work. In your case, you’re battling cancer, you’ve just come out of a heart surgery, you’re a relatively new mother with a toddler at home, and yet you still manage to stay productive. I’m curious, what things used to consume you in your career that no longer really concern you? Caroline: The little things just don’t bother me anymore. I just won’t get stressed about something that doesn’t really matter. I think when I was in banking and then at Xstrata and X2, I could get really bogged down with the minutiae and really stressed about something which, in the grand scheme of things, wasn’t that important. The one thing that I found made me very unhappy in work when I was asking myself the big questions was politics, politics within work. I was very lucky because there was very little about it, almost none of that in X2, really. I think I saw a lot more of it in banking, and to a certain amount, in Xstrata, purely because it was a big business. When there’s lots of people, you’re always going to get a certain amount of it. It’s something I couldn’t stand and would upset me a lot. I was a young woman working in a very male-dominated environment my whole career. Nutrition is quite a shock because it’s almost all women, and I found that very challenging at times. It used to bother me a lot. It’s not to say that it doesn’t bother me anymore, but I’ve just taken myself out of that picture, and that’s not going to be the solution for everybody. One thing that actually really help me when I was at X2, I had some career coaching with a very senior female ex-lawyer actually, and she really helped me see the bigger picture with some of these things. I think if you can take yourself out of the situation in some ways, if there are things like that that are bothering you, and talk to somebody who is outside of it, I think it can be hugely beneficial. Joseph: Having gone through your career changes and now having to battle stage four cancer, what’s something that you’ve come to realize that perhaps you wish you would’ve realized earlier either about your career or your life? Caroline: I think it’s just realizing what your priorities are. I don’t actually think there’s anything that I think I wish I’d realized earlier, because doing the big city career was the right thing. It had its down sides. I wasn’t always happy. I was often stressed, but looking back on it, I’m really proud that I did it. I do feel like I achieved a lot. Financially, it was a big benefit, so I’m in a position now to do something that’s not as financially driven. Although I wouldn’t say I was ever particularly financially driven in my 20s. I now appreciate it a lot. I think you reprioritize as you get a bit older. For me, family and the people around me are the most important thing in the world. That will be the case in my personal life and in my work life forever now, because I just want to surround myself by the right people because they really change how you feel and how happy you are, I think, more than anything else. Joseph: Definitely. I guess it takes me to a related question, and I’m not sure how to word this the best way, but I’d imagine that you feel the urgency and fragility of life a bit more than the average person out there, given your situation. Is there anything you feel you took for granted before that you no longer take for granted? Caroline: I think we all take an awful lot for granted. I probably still take things for granted. Particularly when you’re young, you just assume that you have decades ahead. A lot of the time, I would sort of put things off, ‘I would do this another time. I would do this next year,’ and whatever. On the other side of that, I would plan a long way ahead. It’s going to be like, ‘This is going to happen in maybe six months or two years,’ or whatever, and I don’t do that anymore. The thought of planning actually terrifies me now, whereas I’ve always been an intense planner, because I don’t know what’s going to happen. Last week was such a good example because I was feeling so good, and I was out for a run the day before I started feeling ill essentially. I had plans for the week and the weekend, and then suddenly, I end up in the hospital with something wrong with my heart. I didn’t think I had anything wrong with my heart. Planning has become very difficult, but I actually struggled with that probably more than anything when I was first diagnosed. Now, I embrace it, because it’s not to say I don’t make plans. Of course I do. I plan to go out and see friends on Friday nights and short-term stuff, but I’m not freaking out anymore that I don’t have maybe a 5 or a 10-year plan. I don’t feel the need so much anymore because I just try and look for right now. My husband and I had been planning to go to Venice forever. It’s just a small example, but it’s always been on our list. We never got around to going. When I was diagnosed, I was like, ‘Right, we’re going to Venice,’ and we had it booked within a week, because it’s something we wanted to do. Let’s get on and do it! Let’s not hang around – small things like that. It doesn’t mean I’m not working towards bigger things. I’m still working towards my nutritional therapist qualification, which isn’t going to happen because I’ve had to delay various bits. I’m not going to be qualified for the best part of the year still. It doesn’t mean I give up on all plans, but I’m also not thinking, ‘Oh, well, my life’s only going to start once I’ve qualified.’ There are things I can do and I’m doing already within nutrition right now, because why not? Now is what I’ve got, so let’s embrace that. Joseph: What have you learned about yourself in the past few months since receiving that second cancer diagnosis last year? Caroline: I’ve learnt to become much more patient, and I’ve learnt that it’s okay to let go of control a little bit. I mean I was a total control freak. I still am to some extent, but I can’t be anymore. Something bigger has taken that away from me. I’ve learnt that it’s okay not to have control, and the whole world won’t fall apart if everything isn’t being done in the way that I want it done and everything isn’t in the right place. If the washing up builds up for a bit, then it’s fine. The house isn’t going to fall down. I think I’ve discovered a slightly slower, gentler side of myself, which I guess it started to appear with motherhood as well. It’s a side that I’m nurturing a lot more in there. It’s not to say the brisk, business side of me isn’t there. It still is, but I guess it’s been dampened down a little bit these days. Joseph: I wasn’t going to ask you this. I do have a follow-up question on that because I’m also somebody who is a bit of a control freak or at least appreciates the idea of control. I’m wondering, now that you’ve relinquished that control a little bit, how has that gone for you? Because I guess I’m always concerned that everything’s going to fall apart. I’m just curious how that has transpired for you once you have let go of your grip on things a little bit. Caroline: I think for me, it’s about working out what I can have control over and focusing on that. Partly for me, it’s timeframe. I can sit down first thing in the morning and write myself a to-do list, and the likelihood is I’ll get it done or that nothing’s going to stand in the way of me getting those things done. Whereas I can’t have control over what’s going to happen in six months, because quite frankly, I have no idea. It’s changing what you can have control on and focusing on the things that you can control, because we all need control in a certain sense. I’m never going to be somebody who just drifts and never makes decisions, because that’s not me. I like to make decisions. I like to feel that I do have an element of control, but it’s learning that it’s okay not to have control over everything. It’s also learning to not freak out when things don’t go to plan. Actually, I’ve been really proud of myself, how I’ve dealt with the past week, because the last time something not similar medically, but there was another spanner in the works in the treatment, and things all changed, I lost it. I completely freaked out. My chemo treatment was meant to start, and it had to be delayed a week for things that were outside of my control. I couldn’t cope, and I almost had a panic attack. I was so upset, and I was like, ‘I can’t deal with it. I can’t deal with this lack of control.’ Whereas over the past six months actually, I have learnt that it’s okay. Yes, last week messed things up and I’ve had some mistreatment and things have had to be rescheduled and so on, but it’s okay. It doesn’t matter. I’m still here. I still feel okay. People understand. My friends are all amazing. I had to cancel last minute, and obviously, nobody holds it against me because it is what it is. It’s just accepting that it’s okay sometimes to let go. Joseph: I’d like to wrap up—and not take up too much more of your time here, Caroline—with what you’re doing right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about Nutritious Living and the nutrition-focused cooking courses you’re now planning to run? Caroline: As I said, I’m still studying in college. I’ve nearly finished the theory side, which is very exciting, but I still have to do a certain amount of clinical practice to be a nutritional therapist. Now that I have all my nutritional knowledge, I’m starting to do various things, including writing a number of books. One is already available as an e-book on my website about infant nutrition and cooking for families, and I’m writing a couple of others which are healthy-eating-focused. Those are very much work in progress. In the summer, once I have finished all the theory at college, I’m going to be starting some nutritional cooking courses, teaching people some very basics of nutrition as it applies in the kitchen or in the home. Together, we also will cook healthy dishes so that you get a little bit of a repertoire of some new recipes with ingredients perhaps that you wouldn’t think to use straightaway. That’s going to be starting in the summer. I’m also going to be running one specifically for cancer patients I hope, because I want to give something back to other people who are in this fairly horrible situation. Cancer is not nice, and it’s a lot to deal with. I think nutrition is increasingly being focused on even by oncologists and other people in the traditional, allopathic, orthodox medicine, but it’s still an area where a lot of people don’t have that much knowledge. The more I can spread the word on eating healthily and what you can perhaps do to support your body, the better. You can find everything about that on my website, which is NutritiousLiving.co.uk, and then also on Instagram as Nutritious.Living, which is where I have most of my day-to-day interaction. Joseph: We will definitely make sure that we include a link to your website in the show notes. I just wanted to thank you so much, Caroline, for taking the time to speak with me today, especially because of everything that happened last week. I wasn’t sure if we were going to get a chance to do this when I heard that you’re having heart surgery. I really appreciate you telling us more about your career evolution and the impact that cancer has had on your outlook on life. I just want to commend you for your positivity and bravery during this time, which is really an inspiration for me and I’m sure everyone listening to this. I wish you the very best in your ongoing battle with cancer, NutritiousLiving, and the books you’re writing, along with those nutrition courses you’re planning to run for other cancer patients. I hope to cross paths with you again soon. Caroline: Thank you so much, Joseph. It’s been great to speak to you.

Walking away from a family business comes with its own unique set of challenges and emotional dynamics. In this episode of Career Relaunch, Michael McEvoy shares his story of walking away from being a partner at a law firm, the same firm his father spent his entire career, to found his own public adjusting company. We discuss making time for those who matter in your life, the importance of following a path that makes you truly happy, the impact your career can have on the people in your life, and dealing with the judgements of others. During the Mental Fuel segment, I also explain how much your job satisfaction can affect your life outside of work. Key Career Insights When you walk away from a career you spent years creating, people will have different reactions to your decision, some positive, some negative. As long as you’re doing it for the right reasons, you have to stay focused on the upside it provides you in your life regardless of what others think. Even when you’re an adult, the judgement of your parents can still have an impact on your career decisions. Your family’s wellbeing can and should be a factor in any major decision you’re making in your career. Inevitably, it involves trade-offs. Letting go of your professional identity is never easy. It forms so much of who you are, so it’s completely natural to feel a sense of loss when you step away from it. Even if you’re not happy in your job, reflecting on what drew you to that path to begin with can be very useful. Certain elements of your job may still make you happy and could be worth carrying over into the next chapter of your career Resources Mentioned What Color is Your Parachute is the book Mike referred to in our conversation that helped him uncover where his interests were. I actually read this myself after college, and to this day, the book has informed how I’ve navigated my own career pivots over the years. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I challenged listeners to think carefully about the bigger picture of your life beyond work–specifically, one area of your life outside of work that’s recently taken a hit because of your work. Then, to decide what change you’re going to commit to making to at least START undoing that damage. It may mean you will need to make some sort of decision that inevitably involves some sort of a tradeoff that allow you to have the life you want outside of work. About Michael McEvoy Mike McEvoy started his career as a licensed attorney in 2003, and spent the majority of his time with a large insurance defense firm in Los Angeles as an associate and then as a partner. Through his legal work, he discovered he had a passion for handling the damages side of wildfire litigation. He eventually walked from his career in 2015, unsure of what he was going to do next. After a lot of time and self-reflection, he found a new path as a public adjuster and business owner. In 2018, Mike founded Integral Adjusters, a public adjusting company, to help insurance policyholders protect their rights, navigate the insurance claim process, and maximize their benefits and financial recovery. Follow Mike on LinkedIn and Twitter. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet: If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Michael know! Tweet a thank you! Review: I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Subscribe: Be sure to subscribe to Career Relaunch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions. Stay in touch: Follow Career Relaunch on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. You can also follow host Joseph on Twitter and Facebook. Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch Built by linguists and language lovers, Grammarly’s writing app finds and corrects hundreds of complex writing errors — so you don’t have to. Career Relaunch listeners can download Grammarly for free by going to GetGrammarly.com/relaunch. Episode Interview Transcript Teaser (first ~15s): You have to put up your professional face when you’re in that situation, but when you bring it home, you’re living it again. It affected my wife and my son to the point where she said, ‘Look. We need to talk about this.’ Joseph: Good morning, Mike. Welcome to Career Relaunch. It is great to have you on the show. Michael: Good morning, Joseph. Thank you. Joseph: We are going to talk about a range of topics today, including the realities of being an attorney, the dynamics of turning down opportunities, and also a lot about family today, which I think is going to come up as a theme, especially the dynamics of being part of and leaving a family business and also the impact your own family has on your career choices. I was wondering if you could kick us off by just telling me what you’re focused on right now in your career and life at this moment. Michael: Right now, I’m focused on my public adjusting business, which I started last year. Towards the end of the year, I formed a business Integral Adjusters and focused on public adjusting which is advocating on behalf of policy holders in property damage claims to maximize their benefits from their insurance company. That’s where my focus has been lately: just trying to build on that and develop rapport with my clients. On the life front, just continuing to find that balance as things start to pick up with the business and taking it from there. Joseph: I was also wondering if you could just give us a glimpse into your family. I know you’re married. Can you remind me how many kids you’ve got? Michael: I’ve got the one son. He’s eight years old right now. Joseph: Okay. I know that you haven’t always been the founder of Integral Adjusters, but you have been a licensed attorney since 2003. Could you take us all the way back in time to when you started off in your career at a Sacramento law firm? Then we can move forward from there. What were you doing at that time? Michael: In 2003, I passed the bar, and I had been working at an insurance defense law firm in Sacramento as a law clerk. I continued to work there once I passed the bar as an attorney. Eventually, I wanted to move back to Southern California where I grew up. An opportunity arose. My family is a family of lawyers. My dad’s a lawyer. My wife’s a lawyer. My brother’s a lawyer. My dad had been practicing since 1968 at the same firm. He said there was a position opening up and if I wanted to come down and work at the firm. He’s actually in the Orange County office of this firm, and I was moving into Los Angeles. I decided to come down, and my wife found a job down here. That’s where I really developed my legal career, in Southern California at this firm. Joseph: Can you just give a glimpse into what it’s like to be offered a role and then to join a business that was started by your father? Because I think you’re the first person on the show that we’ve had that has been part of a family business. Michael: When you do join where you know your dad is working and where everybody knows that, ‘Okay. Well, he’s coming in and his dad has been here forever,’ there’s certainly a little bit of pressure to separate yourself and make a name for yourself, which is certainly what I wanted to do. I don’t want people to think, ‘Well, he’s only getting a paycheck because his dad is a senior partner here.’ Certainly, I wanted to find my niche and work my way through the ranks there. Joseph: I know you were there for many years, and you eventually became partner in 2013. Can you remember the moment you became partner? If so, what was that like for you? Michael: I didn’t know I was going to be named partner, but I remember I was having dinner at night here with my wife, and I got a call from one of the senior partners. At this firm, the senior partner is equivalent to an equity partner, and so they’re obviously the ones that are making the decisions. I got the call, and he said, ‘We’re going to make you a partner.’ I was just overjoyed. I was really excited because that’s what I was working hard for, to advance my career, and I was going down the traditional path through the firm. With that comes also added pressure that, now, you’re going to be expected to bring in business. I saw it as more responsibility also. Joseph: For those people out there who aren’t as familiar with the significance of becoming a partner in a firm, I know you mentioned that there’s additional responsibility, and I’m assuming there’s also the financial rewards to that, what’s the day-to-day significance in terms of your experience in your job of becoming a partner? I know that it’s something that a lot of people aspire to do, and at the same time, we’ve had somebody on the show who had that dangled in front of her, and she wasn’t sure if that’s what she wanted. I’m just curious, what’s the significance of becoming a partner, and why do you think that’s so important to many people working in firms like this? Michael: There are different levels of partnership. You come in as a junior associate, then you work your way up to maybe a senior associate and then partner, and then there’s equity partner which there’s very few of those typically. It’s just the next step, and the significance is that you’re now expected to try and move into the next step, which is you’re now expected to try and bring in your own business and manage your own files. Joseph: It sounds like you’re on a really good track there at the firm. You’re advancing. You make partner. When did you start to realize you wanted to make a shift out of that firm? Michael: I guess I should go back to what I was doing. I found my so-called niche in Wildland Fire Litigation. I really enjoyed working on those cases. It’s very unique practice, and I think it’s been in the news a lot more, but I was certainly there starting with that in 2007 or 2008. I really enjoyed the work, and I developed an expertise in damages and really enjoyed that aspect of things. The other part of the firm’s practice—I mean this was just one little area—there was also personal injury and really the demands of the insurance companies. What ended up happening was by 2014, the Wildfire Litigation work was starting to dry up in the firm. My son, in 2014, he got very sick. He had a fever of over 104. We didn’t know what was going on and basically ended up in an emergency room in a hospital for eight days while doctors try to figure what was wrong with him. During that time, my wife and I were just scared about what this means. It was really to the point where they’re telling you all these tests, and they’re coming back, and it’s this very rare condition that he’s got. By the end of it, we’re learning that he’s going to need treatment for the rest of his life. That’s something that the realities of what’s important to you come in to play. During that time there, eight days you’re away from your law firm, I was able to respond to calls and things like that, but there were certain demands and pressures where I saw requests that this still needs to get done, and you still need to get this out the door. Where are we on this type of reactions? I started to realize what’s important to me. That played a role in how I started to feel about things. I was doing less of the wildfire litigation work and more of personal injury. Your listeners may not be aware, but it gets to be a real negative, argumentative in a lot of instances. It was that kind of starting to realize that, ‘Hey, there’s more out there. If I could focus on something that doesn’t bring the same kind of stress level…’ That was where things were, I guess, as I was going through this process. Joseph: Before our recording, you had also mentioned to me that you weren’t feeling really happy for a number of reasons and that you were bringing some of that daily stress and anxiety home, which was affecting some of your relationships with your family. Can you describe what was happening with your home life? I know that you mentioned your son was sick, and that was something that was weighing on you. Was anything else happening? Michael: Definitely. Stuff was happening at home where you’re constantly thinking about what you have to get done or what this person’s expecting or what the insurance company, how they cut your bill or how the other side reacted at the deposition. You have to put up your professional face when you’re in that situation, but when you bring it home, you’re living it again. It affected my wife and my son to the point where she said, ‘Look, we need to talk about this. We’re just not on the same page here, and I feel like you’re not here. You’re sitting here at the dinner table, but you’re reactive and you’re not present for conversation.’ It was that kind of thing where you’re just so consumed by what the daily routine at the office is handing you and what may have happened that you have to hold back on your emotions in the professional setting. You just bottle it up. It was starting to wear on me and my wife. When I look back, I was sick a lot physically. I look back, and I haven’t really been sick since I quit. I think physically and emotionally, it can really drain on you. About a couple of months before I left, we had that conversation where it came down to ‘what do you want to do? What should we do?’ It came up that maybe it is time to step away, and that’s what we ended up doing. Joseph: I know in 2015, again when we spoke before, there was a tipping point where you were at a conference and speaking about personal property damage. Can you just explain what opportunity came up at that moment and what that told you about your career and your future there at that firm? Michael: I still was keeping up on the Wildfire cases and damages, and I participated in actually a Wildland Fire conference. I was asked to be a guest speaker, and so I spoke at the conference. Probably maybe within a month or two of my speaking engagement, I received a call from a potential client, a big potential client wanting to learn more about me and our practice. My expectation was, ‘This is great.’ Of course, I relayed that to the senior partners I work with. I soon learned that they had already talked with the potential client and had set up a meeting, and I was not invited to the meeting with this potential client. That was definitely my tipping point. I can look back on it now, and I can just say, ‘That was the traditional way things were done.’ You go up the chain of command and who’s the most senior person, but that hurt, because I felt like that was my baby that I’ve been working on, and this was something that I thought was going to come in through me. That kind of stuff matters when you’re working your way up through a firm and who’s bringing in the business. It was the last straw for me: that situation. Joseph: You had your son get sick in 2014. Things we’re a little bit tough at home. You had this client opportunity where you were overlooked for the meeting. At what point did you decide that you wanted to resign, and how did you go about making that decision? Michael: Four months before I decided to leave, one of the other senior partners, when I was in his office, was talking to me about, ‘Do you see yourself as a senior partner? You really got to think about that.’ Of course, you’re expected to say yes, but as I thought about it and looked at what these guys were doing and what their lives were like, do I want that? That literally was going through my head. I really realized that, no, I don’t. I just don’t see myself going down that traditional path. My wife and I had a conversation. We realized we were going to have to make some changes to our spending habits, that it was going to be probably very difficult to make that decision and how it was going to impact my family, especially my dad and my mom, who were a part of that firm for 40-plus years. I didn’t know how they were going to react. I don’t blame them. They did not want to see me leave the firm, and I think it was hard for them to understand that. That was the difficulty of going through that process. It felt good to make the decision, but then actually going through and giving your notice and then walking away, it was, ‘Okay, so now what?’ You spend so much time, energy, money on becoming an attorney and everything that that entailed and then to just step away from it. You realize that people are going to have different reactions to it. I mean, now, my parents, I think even in the first couple of months, they eventually realized, ‘Okay. Well look, he’s happier. Look at his relationship with our grandson and how things have really improved for them.’ Now, they’re really happy for me and what I’m doing with my business and where things have led. Joseph: That’s really great to hear. I know that having gone through a couple of resignations myself, and because we talked about the idea of resigning so much on the show, I really feel like resigning from your job, it’s got to be one of the most, if not the most emotional things that you do in your career. It sounds like your parents, they eventually came around to the idea that this was good for you. I’m actually really curious, was there any fallout after you resigned from your family’s firm? Michael: It was so hard to talk about it with them, because I just knew they were not onboard with it. At some point, they are your parents, and they are looking out for your best interest. They’re from a more traditional—I mean they didn’t do that in their day. My dad was with the same firm for 40 years. I can now understand. Looking back now, it’s easy to understand why they felt that way. Even with some of my friends, they couldn’t understand it. They’re like, ‘What? Your wife’s going to be the only one earning? She’s going to be the breadwinner? What are you going to be? Are you retiring?’ that kind of attitude where you’re like, ‘No, dude. Come on. I’m not retiring. For the good of my own well-being and my family’s well-being, that’s why I did it.’ Joseph: How long was your transition, then, between resigning and then starting your new business? Michael: It felt like a long transition. I think initially it was really just about getting away from it and just focusing on something different. During that first year, it was really about being there for my son, picking him up from school, taking him to go play. Joseph: What was that like for you to be able to be there for him? Michael: It was really great. I will always appreciate that initial time. I don’t know. It just opened up my eyes to so many different things when you step away and you really just focus on what’s going to make me happy right now: being there for my son, getting to go to his fieldtrips, or participating in his school activities with him. He was only in kindergarten at the time. I think that really helped us bond and build our relationship. At the same time, people would ask me, ‘What do you do day-to-day? What do you do?’ That was always one of the questions that people would kind of, ‘How can you be at home? What are doing?’ Well, there’s lots of things you could do. You go and pick up a book or go down to the library. I would go to the library, and I ended up reading a really good book which, for your listeners, I found was helpful. It’s called What Color Is Your Parachute? Joseph: Oh, yeah. I’ve read that. That was an excellent read. Michael: I didn’t necessarily get through every part of the book or do every exercise, but I thought it was really helpful just to narrow down the things that matter to you. The exercises of what was important in this job, who are the people you like working with, those types of questions that you don’t normally think about or spend the time to think about, which helped me start to feel where my interests were. Early on, I was thinking maybe I should become a teacher. Everything starts coming into your head. I took meteorology in college, and I really enjoyed watching the weather channel, which everybody thought I was a weather nerd and ‘what a dork for doing that.’ Everything is on the table. It really developed organically where it was, ‘Okay, I like doing the damages. I like helping people. I like analyzing things using my critical thinking skills and organizing information.’ That’s when I started to look at being a public adjuster. What that involved was getting licensed, taking a test, applying, and so that’s eventually where I ended up going. Before I did that, I talked to people, which I think is important – to reach out to people you either know who are connected to something that you’re interested in. That’s what I started doing: reaching out to colleagues, friends, other experts in different fields that I had worked with. You start to build a network. You can find people who are going to be supportive and points you down a path to help you. Joseph: It sounds like there was some real upside to having a little bit of time and space to step away from your work, because it gave you a lot of opportunity to gain some clarity on what you wanted to do. Was there anything that was especially tough or challenging about the transition? Michael: I think early on that was when it was the toughest. It was the transition from your identity as a lawyer or as your profession to now that isn’t there. I think, for me, I was so consumed with it that that’s who I was. I was a lawyer, and this is what you do. You work late hours. You work long billable hours. You’re stressed. That’s just the way it is. Stepping away from that, you realize there’s a whole other world out there. Initially, it was you’re walking the dog and you bump into somebody you know. It’s, ‘Why aren’t you at work? What’s going on?’ Joseph: I think you said you bumped into your mom’s friend or something when you were walking. Michael: It was probably two or three months into my transition, walking away. I just ran into her in town. It seems silly now, but she said, ‘Oh, what are you doing here?’ I said, ‘Oh, I’m just hanging out.’ I don’t know why I said that. I was going to lunch with somebody, but it was just, at least for me, that was one of the things that I had to get over: being concerned of what other people think and just moving on and seeing the bigger picture, that there’s more to life than just this career. Joseph: I think that sometimes people struggle with what to do with people who have a little bit of idle time or who aren’t fitting in to the traditional nine-to-five or nine-to-six or nine-to-whatever work lifestyle. I thought it was interesting what you were mentioning before about spending some time with your son. I think when you and I spoke before, I mentioned to you that I look after my daughter who is about 17 months old on Tuesdays. I’ll go to events with her or music class with her, and I’ve actually been asked by mostly mothers at these events who I think are trying to figure out what I’m doing there or how was it that I’m there. They’re just not quite sure what to make of me. I think maybe people are a little bit confused when they see others who are not working. You mentioned the big picture, Mike, and I’d love to just wrap up by talking about some of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your career path. The first thing I’m curious about, because I know that you’re now running your own company, what are some of the things you’re able to do now that you weren’t able to do before? Michael: What I have more of right now is being able to continue to work on this business, but at the same time having that balance to be there for my son and pick him up from school and take him golfing or take him to play at the park. That, for me, is really important. I found that that really is important. I want to maintain that. Right now, I’m in a position where the business is just getting started. I have a couple of clients. As things grow or develop, I feel confident that I can figure this stuff out. I think, when I left the firm, I didn’t know that I could even go down this path or I could be a business owner or I could put my name out there. When you’re in a certain environment, that’s all you know. Getting out of that circle and talking to people and getting advice, and then I spent a lot of time in the library, just picking up books and reading about how do I form an LLC, just the basics doing the business, before, I wouldn’t have the confidence to do that. I think if you put your mind to it and really just focus on the things that are going to make you happy—I was very lucky with having my wife work. We’re in a position where I could step away as long as I did to figure my own path out. I appreciate that she’s been willing to do that. Not everybody’s going to have that opportunity, but I think if you can at least step away for a little while or just really think about what you enjoy about the job you’re doing and find the aspects that make you happy, as you went down that path for a reason, if there’s something there, you can turn it into something else. For me, it’s now coming full circle, because I’ve now been contacted by, just recently, some of the previous client who I’m now going to work with again more on a legal consulting basis. What surprises me is just how naturally things fall into place when you open yourself up to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Joseph: When you look back on this whole journey of starting off in a family business, then leaving that business behind, having a lengthy transition, starting your own business, what’s something that you wish you had known that you now know? Michael: I guess it was the people questioning your decision. I wish I could tell myself, ‘Don’t take it so personally,’ because that’s what can hurt. It’s when you don’t have the support from people you might expect it from. I’m able to now say, ‘There was a reason for that.’ This was the firm that allowed my family to become successful and my dad and mom to have the lives that they had. Of course, they’re going to think this is a crazy move on my part to just leave. You have to take everything in perspective and be aware that the people that are maybe questioning the decision, they’ve got a different background. They’ve got a reason for feeling that way. That would be my one ‘I wish I had known that,’ because I think it would have made for a little bit easier transition. Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I mean it’s so hard to just completely dismiss the views and opinions of people who matter to you. I just found it to be easier said than done, but if you can do it, it definitely allows you to move forward with a little bit less suffering, I think. Michael: That’s a good way of putting it. Joseph: Final question for you. Having been through this career transition, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself? Michael: Being unhappy in my job was preventing me from enjoying everything else. It’s really important to focus on really what brings you happiness or joy, I guess. Not everybody can do that, but I think that that’s important to me. Joseph: I think that’s a really great way to leave our discussion today, because I do think that it’s important to do work that does bring you joy and that it really does have an impact on the rest of your life. By trying to find work that you find more meaningful, it actually does a service to the rest of your life too. With that in mind, it sounds like you are enjoying the new chapter in your career with the work that you’re doing there in public adjusting. Where can people go if they want to learn more about the public adjusting company that you founded and the work that you’re doing right now? Michael: They can go to IntegralAdjusters.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn. Joseph: All right, Mike. Thank you so much for telling us more about your former life as an attorney and some of the motivations behind your transitions, and most of all, how you found your way. I appreciate you sharing all the personal details along the way. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your work there at Integral Adjusters. Michael: Thanks a lot, Joseph.