Continued Conversations with Megan Gill

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss the impacts of the modeling industry and other themes around the beauty industry and diet culture. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone, please welcome Brittany Brown to Continued Conversations! Brittany and I met through a shared acting community in Los Angeles back in 2019. I knew she was a phenomenal actor, and I also knew she had experience in the modeling industry, so when I started this project, she was on my list of people I wanted to have a conversation with. But it took Brittany sharing a bit more about her experience on “America’s Next Top Model,” once the documentary had been aired, for me to reach out and ask if she’d be open to talking body image with me in this space. And I’m so thankful she was because our conversation was powerful.In our conversation, we discuss…* Brittany’s journey to finding Reiki for her own healing and now starting her own Reiki practice to help others* Giving yourself permission to slow down and rest* As a kid, learning your body is being perceived by others* The intersection of a cut-throat modeling industry and the desire to be a soft and creative artist* Her experience on “America’s Next Top Model” leading her to want to step away from modeling, so she could return to the industry on her own terms* The importance of safe, supportive representation* Truly embracing you, who you are, and your body* Re-teaching our bodies safety after traumatic experiences* Finding freedom in acting* It’s our responsibility to protect our bodiesBrittany is truly an incredible light of a woman. She shared so much wisdom in the 45 minutes that we spoke together, and I’m so grateful to her for joining me in discussing parts of her story she hadn’t spoken about in a while. I’m hopeful that anyone who’s gone through something similar to Brittany hears her words and feels seen and validated in her generous vulnerability. In the Instagram post she shared that pulled me to finally reach out to her she shares:“If this documentary sparks conversations about care, consent, and humanity within creative industries, I hope it also makes room for stories of resilience and moving forward.“So, thank you, Brittany, for opening up in this space with me. And to everyone here reading, get ready for a moving conversation - I cannot wait for you to listen in!“ I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true.”- Brittany BrownBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 10-minute and 54-second mark:Brittany Brown: So I feel lucky in the sense of, when I was a kid, I just wanted to play. And I think when you’re around, I don’t know, sixth grade, I remember a boy on the playground just being like, “Where are your boobs?” And I was like, “I don’t know. They’re just not in yet.” This is so silly. I used to wish, on my birthday, “I wish my boobs would grow.” And then, like I said, being that late bloomer – well, and again, other people just always point out, “You’re so tall,” or “You’re so this,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s just my body.”And then I think when I – it was after high school when my body just shifted, and I was like, “Ooh, this is, this is different.” And then that was the time when I went on America’s Next Top Model, and then I’m being told, you know, “Oof, this still doesn’t really quite work. We don’t know where to put you.” And then I’m like, oh, now you’re being evaluated in that sense. And I started to kind of feel like I didn’t have autonomy over my own being, because I was like, “Oh, I’m finally –.” Here we go. I don’t know why this is making me emotional now. You go from being awkward to then feeling good to then still not being enough. And it really messed with me for a long time of just, “Ugh, well, what is my body type? Am I just… I’m not quite tall/skinny enough to be a runway model. I’m not volumptuous. And I just kinda went from caring a lot to kind of just shutting down.Megan Gill: And like disconnecting from – or what do you mean shutting down?Brittany Brown: Especially around the timing of me doing that show was just – I was 18, almost 19. And I was so excited because I was like, “I want to just go, and I want to play, and I love being creative and doing photo shoots”. And then it just so quickly became something that wasn’t really fun. And I know people are like, “It’s a tough – it’s a brutal industry. You need to have thick skin.” And I’m like, I am so soft and so tender. I am one of the most – and for a long time, I would get frustrated like, “Brittany, don’t cry, stop crying!” or, “Don’t be so affected.” And I just had to like really accept myself like, “You’ve always been sensitive, and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.” So the shutdown thing was just –Megan Gill: That’s your superpower!Brittany Brown: Yeah, I think I’m more – well, I wanted nothing to do with the modeling industry.Megan Gill: After that experience?Brittany Brown: I was just – I came home, and I was just still processing. And other people are like, “Ah!!!” And I’m like, “Huh?”Megan Gill: Yeah.Brittany Brown: It took time. And then I was like if I do this, I want it to be on my terms. I want to find an agency where I feel protected and safe and not constantly just evaluated or…Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely, and supported.Brittany Brown: Yeah!Megan Gill: Because you’re right, the industry is brutal, and I don’t even know the half of it, but I can only imagine that coming off of that show and having people that don’t know what you went through be like, “Oh, my gosh, this is so exciting!” And you’re having to still sit with and process and deal with everything that you had experienced and how your relationship to your body, the work itself, what you once thought was going to be this – what was this fun, enjoyable thing for you has now been tainted. I am just hurting for 19-year-old you who, you’re still a kid in a sense. It’s a lot to process and sit with and manage.Brittany Brown: Yeah, and, I mean, I’m grateful in hindsight because some of the women that I was able to meet through that, that was one of the best parts - connecting in this kind of weird process. And some people could argue like, “Well, you signed up for the show. You went on.” And I’m like, yes, I did sign up for the show, but I didn’t sign up for other manipulation or other things that kind of took place, and I was the one who had to come home and then live my life and do the work on healing from that. So it’s a journey.Megan Gill: Yeah, and it’s also hard for people to say that. Well, yes, but also you would hope – one would hope that going on a show like that would not have been such a difficult experience to go through. You would hope that it would – the pros would outweigh the cons in it to an extent. And I don’t mean to speak for you and say the cons outweighed the pros, but it’s like – I don’t know. I don’t know.Brittany Brown: Yeah. No, I know what you mean because I remember I got home, and I was in Arizona, and I think an agency wanted to meet with me, and I was very much just like, “I don’t want to do that.” I was just like, “Mm, mm-mm.” And I think I waited almost a year. I did end up being signed, and I was like, “Oh, this is okay.”I moved to LA shortly after that as well, but I remember just being like – also, I was like I like acting way better because I feel like in modeling it’s so much about how you look, which is also frustrating because – I don’t hate modeling. I love being creative and moving your body, and I just – I hate the bad rap that it’s gotten, but it’s gotten that for a reason, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah, it is unfortunate. And, okay, a couple things here, because I do want to talk more about your journey into acting and kind of how that evolved your story and your relationship to your self-image. But I’m also thinking it’s so tough in our society today, where ten years ago, we were having this like body positivity movement, and we were getting all different shapes and sizes of bodies in our media. And now it’s – god, I saw something this morning about I don’t know, just the, the way that our society is now leaning back towards like everyone is very, very small.Brittany Brown: Yeah. It does. It becomes things are more in or trendy.Megan Gill: That’s like a testament to – that made me think when you were it’s not that you don’t like modeling, or that you like dislike the modeling industry or like the creative act of modeling, but it’s hard when the confines of it are being manipulated by brands and by trends. And it’s so hard to keep up and feel… yeah. I’m rambling.Brittany Brown: Yeah. It’s almost like – no, you’re not. I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And it just reminds me of it being in partnership too or being in friendship, being in relationship with others, it’s like no other person can validate you as much as you can yourself. If you are not accepting of yourself and showing yourself that love and care and kindness and compassion, no one else can do it for you. It’s a similar concept, you know?Brittany Brown: Oh, it’s still hard though. I remember I did a student film through I think UCLA, I don’t know, ten years ago, and they did a little screening of it, and I just remember I was sitting next to my sister, and I was like – I couldn’t even watch myself. I was just like – all I saw was my flaws. I was like, “Oh my gosh, Brittany, you look like Grumpy Cat when you’re on screen. This is terrible.” And my sister was just like, “What are you talking about?” And I couldn’t even look at it as art or telling a story because I was so hyper-focused on picking apart my appearance. It’s just mind-blowing.And then that also sucked because I love theater. I love moving my body. I love being quirky. And it’s a very weird experience when you go from that to, “Oh my gosh, but how am I being perceived?” And that was, I think, the trauma from America’s Next Top Model that kind of just like, whew! And then I went, “Oh, that’s the lens I’m looking at. But no one’s out to get me or make me look bad anymore, so why? Whew. Let’s let that go so we can just feel free.”Megan Gill: Yeah, to be embodied in the play and in the joy and in the expression of the art form, whether it is modeling now or acting on camera or on stage. But you’re right, that is so so hard, and it’s so hard to teach our bodies that they are safe in those moments when you’ve experienced something that led you to feel unsafe in the expression or thereafter. I mean, it took me years to feel comfortable enough in my body as an actor, way too long.Brittany Brown: Yeah.Megan Gill: It’s nuts to think that my whole college career, I was just so focused on how I was being perceived in my body that I didn’t even dive into the art form of it all. It’s wild! I’m like, wow. I could have been learning so much more, but instead my brain space was just taken up and all consumed by the way I looked.Brittany Brown: And I am curious, for you, if you kind of feel the same way of being – do you – with modeling and acting, because you do both, do you feel more of a sense of freedom in acting, or how do you kind of…?Megan Gill: Now, yes, because I think that I’ve been acting for so long, and I feel like I have grown in such a lovely way with my acting to this place where it’s so much easier for me to be embodied and be in story and not worry about what anyone’s thinking about me.But when it comes to modeling, it’s like I really don’t know what I’m doing. Technically speaking, there are things that I’m like – so a lot of times, I’m faking it till I’m making in that realm. Not with fit modeling, but if I have um an e-comm casting or something, I’m like, “Ha!” I do not excel in this area. So I’m just showing up and, ultimately, this is me. If you like my look enough – like you said, unfortunately, so much of it is about look. “If you like me enough, then you’ll work with whatever weird thing my hands are doing,” you know?Brittany Brown: Yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah, I feel a lot more freedom in my acting, but I think it’s also because what I’ve come to learn – and I’m curious to know if you feel similarly – is that more goes in acting. More things pass. The human nuance when you’re acting and when movement is involved and it’s not just – not that all modeling is still photography, but I don’t know, it’s just more things I feel like can be included. And maybe this is a lesson in more things could be included in the modeling realm too, but… yeah. Yeah, I feel just like freedom.Brittany Brown: Yeah, I remember too the freedom that I felt for some reason of it doesn’t matter how your hair looks right now, it doesn’t matter if you have a triple chin when you’re thinking or angry. It doesn’t matter when you’re onstage or you’re doing something, you know, it just, to me, felt like, “Oh my gosh!” I get that way, especially with live auditions. If I can feel that level of freedom, it just feels like permission to just be. Yeah, I feel like you don’t really have that when you’re modeling, but maybe that’s just I just could never get there with it.Megan Gill: I mean, even still, if I do a photoshoot now, and even if it’s just for me, it’s like there is an added level of pressure, and maybe because in my head it’s not “storytelling” in the way that if I’m creating a short film or something, acting in a short film. That is like, “Okay, gotta give it up because story, story. That’s what matters. That’s what matters.” But it’s like, “Yeah, I’m just doing a photoshoot for myself!” So then all of a sudden the pressure’s on, and I’m like, “Oh, god. Everything has to be perfect.” But it’s like, no! We’re humans. We’re not perfect. And it’s okay if – god, it really took me a long time to get to this place of I just took headshots recently, and my belly button was showing in some of the photos, and I’m like do I still have – parts of me still have like feelings about that like, “Ugh, god, ugly.” But then I just do the work to be like, “No. That? No. We have done so much work to accept our belly. No! She deserves to make her freaking appearance. She deserves to be here!”Brittany Brown: Yeah.Megan Gill: So there’s always going to be that, “Ugh,” you know?Brittany Brown: Oh, yeah.Megan Gill: Like how you said when you were watching yourself in the film, but it’s like hopefully we can do enough work, consistent work, because it’s never-fucking-ending to get to a place where we can have those thoughts, but then be like, “Okay, let’s hold our own hand and be like, “But… It’s okay! You are still good, and you are still talented and incredible and wonderful.”Brittany Brown: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you just brought me back. Now, I love being tender, and I love people with opinions, and I’m just like, “Ah! Great!”I remember when I got home from the show, and I had looked up an ANTM fandom website where someone had edited pictures of my face, of what they thought would make my face a better face. And I was just like – that hurt at the time. And then now I’m like who cares? People are always gonna have this opinion, and if I sat and looked and read everything, oh my gosh, that would be terrible. So why even go there? Yeah.Megan Gill: Right, it’s almost like we get to hand that back to those people. Like, if you feel like you need to say something like that about somebody else’s body, then that’s something that you have to sit with. I think it’s hard to have that realization that that’s theirs to carry, not ours to take on, because it’s, in this case, literally about your body. So it’s really difficult to be able to separate it. But that’s really cool to hear that you have come this far to be able to be like, “That’s on you, man.”Brittany Brown: Yeah, or I just don’t even want to look. I don’t even look any… yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah, because it doesn’t matter. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Ooh, I’m curious to know – and maybe we’ve touched on some of this, so forgive me if it’s kind of a repeat, but I’m curious to know how your relationship with your body today is different than it was ten years ago, which I know we’ve kind of talked about. But, I don’t know! If there’s anything else that’s coming up for you when it comes to that?Brittany Brown: So that inner fun child is definitely still here because I want work to always feel like play and freedom, right? If we’re like, “Ahh!” But some of the tender topics, I think, are still there a little bit. But I am 32 now. You know, I’m not 22. So the need to seek out the validation isn’t really there anymore, which feels like responsibility, actually, because then it’s like, okay, then let’s tend to our body. That is even why I do this work now is because I want to show my body love, safety. It’s my responsibility to protect her. So it feels like strength, but that comes from a very tender place.Megan Gill: That’s really powerful and lovely and very, very eloquently put.“I feel like [my favorite thing about my body] changes too, but I’m gonna say my hands, I feel like I don’t give them enough credit. They hold things. There’s something so cool and kind of mystical about the hands.”- Brittany BrownBrittany is an actress currently based in Arizona, with a deep love for theatre and storytelling that has been a part of her life for as long as she can remember. She has also worked as a model, an experience that shaped her understanding of self-expression, confidence, and the complexity of being seen. Recently, she has been exploring energy work, holding space for others to reconnect with themselves and their own healing. She is passionate about the intersection of creativity, authenticity, and personal growth, and how those elements come together to shape who we are.Follow Brittany on InstagramSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* In light of this, please feel free to support the guests of this Substack Series in the comments.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might want to join in the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued ConversationsWhile I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss chronic health conditions, diet, and body measurements. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone, please welcome Katie Stone to Continued Conversations! Katie and I were connected through a friend of mine, Alia Parise, who I previously spoke with on Continued Conversations. (Thank you, Alia - we love you!) Katie is also a fellow fit model and print model, and when she had mentioned she has a condition called adenomyosis that she is starting to talk more publicly about, I knew we had to chat.After all she’s been through with her condition, Katie’s outlook on her life and her relationship to her body now is extremely inspiring. She opens up about her story and shares so beautifully all that she’s gone through that led her to where she’s at now in terms of how she’s relating to her body. She shares so much about her own story in our conversation, and I know she hopes to reach others in doing so too. [Keep an eye out because this woman is going to write a book one day!!!]In our conversation, we discuss…* Katie’s health journey that led to her adenomyosis diagnosis* Educating yourself and caring for your body through that lens while struggling with a chronic health condition becomes your part-time or full-time job* Radical acceptance of her pain, coupled with science and spirituality, allowed her to begin to heal her body* The Dutch Test gave her a breakdown of her hormones* Having to give up coffee, even though she loves it so much - the sacrifices she has had to make to feel good in her body* How she deeply listened to her body when it told her not to get a hysterectomy* Katie’s serendipitous discovery of her doctor, who changed everything (who’s also named Katie)* The toll stress, coupled with genetics, diet, and lifestyle, can truly take on our bodies* How to cope when feeling out of control in your own body* Katie’s journy towards opening up about her story and listening to her own heart* Being honest with a client (or anyone, really) instead of pretending everything is okayKatie’s vulnerability in sharing her story was admirable. She got into the nitty-gritty of the intersection of science and spirituality when it comes to how she is healing her body. Despite her journey and all she’s been through, Katie is such a light of a human, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“ I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing." I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route.”- Katie StoneBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 28-minute and 2-second mark:Katie Stone: I’ve had to navigate through all of this while still doing all of the work that I do. And but, you know, health comes first and foremost because it affects everything else in my life. So it’s like, I know that I need to prioritize this, even if that means that maybe I don’t get a casting one day because I’m just not the right measurements because maybe I’ve been eating a certain way for a few months, and it’s actually made me smaller, and now I’m not those measurements anymore, but I want to bounce back, you know? And so, it’s just a matter of being aware of what’s going on and understanding that you have to just love your body. You have to love yourself going through this. You really do, because it’s difficult and I don’t want to make it worse for myself ultimately.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that’s such an important piece of the conversation, that even when you are dealing with so many of these things that are so out of your control – granted, I do think that just living in a body, generally speaking, we think we can control all these little things about ourselves, but we can’t. And then you add a condition like adenomyosis on top of that, and you’re like, “Wow, I really have no control,” especially with the elimination from your diet and trying different things here and there. It’s like, oh my god, it seems as if it’s what the average person experiences, yet tenfold.Katie Stone: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And again, people sometimes have no idea that I go through this because I’m not the type to complain a lot. I’m not the type to just, you know, publicly share so much about all of the details that I go through, because it is very sensitive stuff, and I want to share it because I want other people to be aware, first of all. And I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing.”I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route, and I didn’t. It’s not specifically because I want to have kids or anything that. It’s more so because this is my body, and that’s such a drastic move to have to remove something completely from your body. And then when you think about it – and I know that this has helped so many women out there, you know, having that type of surgery, and I completely get that and support people in their decision, no matter what they do. But for me personally, I just didn’t want to go down that route. And you know, when you remove an organ from your body, that doesn’t necessarily mean you completely solve the problem, you know? Because you’re not understanding, again, why the inflammation is happening to begin with and what’s going on with your hormones. You could still be doing things like, you know, stress levels and things that, that are affecting you even if you do remove your uterus.So I just like, logically just thought like, “Well, but I want to know what’s going on in my body, you know, and I want to figure that out.” I want to have a working relationship with my body versus thinking of it as something just like, “Okay, I’ll just remove this,” you know, as a project or something.Megan Gill: Yeah, like a curiosity about deepening that connection to your body that had not been present for so long. And I don’t mean to say that so black and white, but just getting more and more connected. this body that you felt you were disconnected to previously when you had first started going through all of this is deeply important, and that makes so much sense and is so beautiful. And I’m also curious about, earlier you mentioned that there was a whisper telling you not to have the surgery and not to remove your uterus.Katie Stone: Yes. Yeah.Megan Gill: I’m curious to hear more about that because that’s also like – I love that you listen to that. That is deep listening to what your body is telling you. And I think that so many people cannot or do not listen to themselves in that way, you know?Katie Stone: Yeah, no, that’s an amazing point, and I’m really glad you brought that up because that was a really big turning point for me because I was at the end of the line. I was just like, “Okay, I don’t know what else to do.” I was so frustrated. Megan, I was so frustrated.You know, it was probably summer of last year. Yeah, summer of last year, and I was so frustrated at that point, and I exhausted everything, or so I thought at that time, and I was just like, “You know what? Forget it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” I had scheduled it; I actually had scheduled the surgery. I put it on the calendar, you know, with the surgery scheduler and and everything, you know. And then, because it takes a long time to schedule those types of surgeries, I had a few months, and I was like, “Okay, if I don’t figure it out in the next few months, I already have it on the calendar, and I’ll do it.”So that really put my butt into gear to figure it out. And I have to give a giant shout-out to my mom, because she heavily helped me throughout this. And she was very much on my side of like, “Whatever you want to do, I support. But I do think we should give it one last shot just to see if we can find someone out there who specializes in this.” Because I had talked to nutritionists in the past. I had talked to more holistic types of doctors, Chinese, you know, medicine, and things that. I’ve done so many things, you know, acupuncture and things that. And it just, nothing was working enough. And that’s why I was like, “Well, I tried that, so why would I keep trying that?” So that’s why I was just at this point where I was like, “Screw it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” But then my mom was like, “Let’s just try it one more time. Like, what do we have to lose? Just one more time, just maybe do a little bit more research. You have a different perspective now. If you can find someone to help you, great.”So then I searched for just dieticians or nutritionists – because I know there’s a difference – but dieticians who specialize in this menstrual condition, I searched for that in Los Angeles, and there were about five to ten that came up that I looked into a little further. I contacted a few. I set up a few calls with them, consultations. I talked to three different people, ultimately. One, she was really great. Wasn’t crazy about her systems, but she had amazing knowledge. Another one I talked to, she was great as well, but she ended up telling me, “I don’t think I’m the right person for you, but I do know someone in my network who I think would be really great if you talk to her instead.” And she said, “I don’t know if she’s taking new clients, but it might be worth a shot just to share your story with her and see what happens.”So then I emailed her, and her name’s also Katie. I emailed her immediately, and I shared my story with her as to – I was just – I just gave everything I got. I was like, “This is what I’ve gone through. This is what I need. Can you help me?” And she messaged me back pretty fast and said, “Let’s work together. I want to help you.” And I was just like – my heart was just like, “Oh my god, thank god. Thank god I found someone. I hope this works out,” you know? Because I still didn’t fully know. And then we got on a call. I loved her style and her system. Her brain works mine. I was like, “This is great.” You know, she had worked with a few, just a few, other women who had this condition and successfully, you know, got them stable to the point in their lives where it’s just more manageable, you know, and that’s all I wanted. I just wanted to be more manageable. I know this is something I’m gonna have to deal with until I go through menopause. That’s just how it works, you know, because you can’t just completely get rid of this, as far as I know. So that’s all I wanted. And so I’ve been working with her since then.And again, she’s someone that I had to find on my own. It’s very specific to my needs, and everything that she has treated me with, very specific. For other women, I highly recommend that they talk to a dietician if they’re going through anything remotely similar to what I’m going through and get some testing done. A Dutch test is fantastic for that. I even also recently did a gut biome test where I tested out to see what’s going on, you know, in my intestines, because that has a direct impact on. Your hormones as well, you know, your digestive system. If that’s all out of whack too, then – the two go hand in hand. They work together .your hormones and your reproductive system and all of that, plus what’s going on in your gut. So I knew that that was important.We recently did that too. And again, mind-blowing data that I learned just from going through that, and her going through the information with me. You know, because a lot of the times too, when you’re online, there are so many people out there just trying to be like, “Oh, this is what you should do. This is the product you should try. This is the supplement mission to try,” and it’s overwhelming. And that’s why I think it’s so important to find the right person to work with you. I don’t think there’s one answer or one product or one solution that’s gonna solve everything, because I’ve been there, done that, and it’s just not the case. So you have to have it specialized to your body and what’s going on specifically inside of you. But I highly recommend to do that testing, and of course, work with your doctors at the same time, but then also work with the dietician to help you get that testing done, to understand what’s exactly going on in your body, so that you can get a plan tailored specifically to you.So we ordered some supplements and changed up my diet, incorporated more breathwork into my life, and all that. And I’m till going through the process, but it has significantly improved since working with her, significantly improved. First of all, I’m not bleeding the entire month. I’m not dealing with just this bleeding, this constant bleeding. There was a time where I was – it wasn’t heavy every single day, but I was bleeding every single day for a month at one point.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh.Katie Stone: So I was like, if we could at least just get to the point where I’m just having a period and not like – great! You know, and we got to that point because of the supplements and just understanding that my hormones weren’t communicating properly together, they weren’t working like they should. And so, by getting to that first issue and solving that, I was like, okay, now I can just be a normal person, and just, yes, I’m still gonna have these horrible periods, but at least I’m not dealing with this every single day, you know?So, yeah. So it just took a matter of just me and my refusal to give up on myself and understand that there’s this intuition in all of us. There is something that you feel inside of you, and from my experience. When I don’t listen to it, it’ll creep back in at some point, and it’s just gonna be like, “Hey, come on. I know you hear me. Are you gonna listen to me? Are you gonna use your brain too much, or are you gonna listen to your heart?” You know? And so, that’s kind of what I’ve been practicing more, just listening to my heart more than trying to brain my way through. Yes, of course, you have to use your brain too, you know? But I think it’s both heavily. Because there were so many times where I thought, “No, I’m just gonna get the surgery. Like, I don’t want to go through this anymore. What if I try all these things and they don’t work? You know, what if I just waste all this time, and I could have just gotten the surgery and been done with it,” and all of that.There were so many times where I felt that, but again, there was this intuition, and again, my mom that just kept creeping back in and telling me, “Just wait. Just wait a little bit longer. Just try this first and see how you feel.”And I literally, I think it was today or yesterday where I canceled the surgery appointment finally. It’s off my calendar because I said to myself, “I’m not gonna do it. I’m done. I, for sure, have made up my mind that I’m not going down that route because of the results that I’ve seen so far, and I am just scared as to what that would even look like for me if I did get the surgery, afterward, meaning, you know? Because there’s so much that could come up from that, during and after. So many women have had successful procedures done. I get that. But for me, I’m just listening to my heart and just realizing that that just wasn’t the right path for me, and to just do everything I possibly can to make sure that I feel good and solid about my decision and moving forward.Megan Gill: I think that, wow, that is extremely profound. And I also just want to point out that you stopped running from your body. You stopped, to me, symbolically getting the surgery and removing this thing from your body is still running, right? And instead, you chose to take the potentially more difficult route and the potentially longer route and to become more embodied and to turn inward, and to really try to figure out going on, and to work with your body and to nurture your body in certain ways, and to give it what’s going to help it function better for you, and to maybe eliminate something that you love so much, but that’s not helping it function in the way that you need it to. And I just think that that is extremely admirable and a really beautiful part of your story.Katie Stone: Thank you.Megan Gill: And I just wanted to reflect that back to you. Sitting here listening, I’m like, that’s incredible because it’s sometimes so much easier to just run from the thing and just wipe your hands clean of it, even if it potentially might not have been the ultimate solve, like you were saying, right?Katie Stone: Yeah.Megan Gill: So I just really commend you for making the conscious decision to work through this condition and to work with your body and to hold your own hand all the way through it.Katie Stone: Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that too, because again, when you’re going through all this, it can feel – I mean I know I have a lot of people in my life who care about me and who are supportive and all of that, but it can feel very lonely sometimes just because I am literally the only one who knows exactly what I’m going through and what’s right for me, because I’m the one experiencing it.““There were so many times where I just wanted to run away from my own body. I felt like my body had betrayed me. I felt so disconnected because I couldn’t understand why this was happening to me. I couldn’t understand what I needed to do about it. I couldn’t understand why all the things that I had been doing, they weren’t enough. And you know, I hit my head so many times on the wall just trying to figure it out, you know? And then finally, over time, I just surrendered to it. I just accepted the fact that this is just where I’m at in my life right now. This is just what I’m going through. I don’t have all the answers. It’s okay. I’m gonna love myself throughout this process, even though I hate it sometimes, and even though, you know, there were so many times where I was just sitting there being like, “Why me? Like, why is this happening to me?” I didn’t know anyone else that had been going through anything like I had been going through. So I felt very alone sometimes.”- Katie StoneKatie Stone is a Los Angeles based model and speaker navigating adenomyosis while building a career that depends on her body. While managing severe pain and bleeding that required four blood transfusions, she pursued conventional medical treatments and gradually incorporated holistic approaches in an effort to better understand her body and find sustainable stability. She speaks about the intersection of chronic illness, identity, and learning to build trust with a body that doesn’t always feel predictable.Follow Katie’s Journey on Instagram!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes around body image, diet culture, and weight loss. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone please welcome Alena Acker to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Alena is another wonderful actor and human that I met through Amy McNabb’s The Spark Membership, and I was so thrilled to sit down and chat with her. I’m so grateful to Alena for her kind heart and vulnerability in our conversation to share some opposing ideas when it comes to body image and general health, prevention, and wellbeing, in hopes that it reaches someone who needs to hear it. Alena also shares a pretty incredible perspective on being a fat actor and hoping to be the representation for others that she needed when she was younger. I know you’re going to enjoy hearing about her body image story, and just get ready to soak in all of the wisdom she shares in our conversation.In our conversation, we discuss…* Reclaiming the word “fat” and not demonizing it* Weight cycling and the impacts of the generational weight loss cycle* Alena’s choice to stop dieting and accept her body after experiencing the loss of her dad* The tie between Alena’s acceptance of herself and her acting career taking off* Being the representation on screen that she needed when she was a kid (that we ALL needed when we were kids)* The inundation of cultural ideals we’re almost brainwashed by* The nuance of accepting your body now, in this moment, and still taking the steps to prevent predisposition to heart disease by way of GLP-1* The fear, as an actor, of your body and appearance drastically changing, and how that could affect your career* Doing what is best for you and your body, and trusting yourself when it comes to knowing what’s bestI cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight. It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight, or any shape or any size, as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in.”- Alena AckerBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 1-minute & 52-second mark:Alena Acker: It’s interesting. When I was younger, people would say, “Oh, you’re not fat,” or “You’re not that fat.” And what they meant was “You’re not a bad person. I don’t think that you’re lazy or undisciplined or bad,” because those are often – or at least back then in the eighties and nineties, especially, those were things that came along with the word fat. So yeah, it’s one of those things where I’m I think it’s okay to be fat, and I think it’s okay to say that you’re fat. And that it, yeah, just shouldn’t be negative.Megan Gill: Right. I absolutely agree with you. I saw this post recently about the belly and how it’s also demonized in a similar sense. Whereas, if you have a soft belly and if you have a soft body in general, that you are seen as weak or not disciplined enough. And it’s very much still a theme today. As deep as it went, in the nineties and early two thousands, it’s no, it’s still present here with us today. Yeah.Alena Acker: It is. Yeah, it is. It feels we’re in a rough moment with this right now because it did seem I don’t know, a few years ago, five, ten years ago, this movement – at least in my perception of things – it seemed oh, there’s this movement that’s really gathering steam, that’s all about body positivity and body diversity and, you know, being able to love yourself and your body regardless of the size and shape of it. Now it feels we’re sort of, I don’t know, regressing a little bit, and we’re in a moment where it seems there’s a big moment that’s sort of trying to get rid of all the diversity in our country. It’s really, really sad. It’s really awful. And, you know, I think body diversity is, you know, a part of that too.Megan Gill: I absolutely agree, and it is really scary. We are in trying times, and it’s sad because, in terms of body liberation, it’s like we have come so far, and yet we aren’t able to fully live freely within that because, here we are again, yet having to fight back at the patriarchy and fight back here and fight back there. The conversation’s being had because we’re still in the cycle of the fight instead of just being able to live, which is frustrating because it did feel like, for so long, within the last span of ten years, I’d say, and during the pandemic body positivity and body neutrality were becoming such big important liberating movements and now it’s just hard to see it…Alena Acker: And it was so inspiring for me to see younger people than myself, because I’m middle-aged, you know, just really embracing and sharing these ideas and being like, “Oh, wow. What a different and wonderful way to think,” and it helped me to sort of look at and face some of my own internalized fatphobia, you know? So yeah. So it’s a real bummer that we’re kind of in, you know, one of those sort of valleys of the fight, I guess. You know, things go up and down, and it feels like we’re in a bit of a down spot right now, which is rough.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. As an actor, I’m curious, as someone who is using your body as your instrument onstage, on screen, probably daily in auditions, and just having it be such a forefront of your life’s work in that sense and your career, I am curious – and this is also kind of a convoluted question here – but how your relationship to your body has influenced your work and your career and your journey as an actor?Alena Acker: Yeah, what a wonderful question. I’m going to take it way back to when I was a kid, because I kind of always knew I wanted to be an actor. It was like I was taken to the touring company production of Cats as a 6-year-old, and I was like, “Hold on. Are you telling me there’s a job where you can act like a cat, and people come and watch you do it and applaud that? Sign me up!” You know, “This is definitely what I want.” But as a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So it was just, it was I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And, you know, it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility. And, you know, weight has, has kind of always been a part of my life.My mom put me in a kid’s – I’m getting emotional thinking about this. She put me in a kid’s weight loss program when I was 12 years old. And I’m someone who has weight cycled about five different times in my life, so what I mean by that is I would lose a significant amount of my body weight, let’s say 20-25%, and then gain it back, you know, and then lose it again, and then gain it back. And so, you know, it started at that super young age, and you know, my mom had her own struggles with this, and she was doing what she thought was the best thing for me to help me, you know, to help my health, to help me perhaps not make what she perceived as mistakes that she had made.And I’m also a lifelong vegetarian. I was a really picky eater as a child, so I think she was also just like – she kind of was like, “What do I feed this kid? I don’t know how to –.” She just kind of didn’t know what to do. And luckily for us, we’ve since had conversations in adulthood where I’ve said, “I need to know that I am okay no matter my weight and no matter the size and shape of my body. That I know you were trying to help me. But what you did was make me feel there was something fundamentally wrong with me.” And that’s, you know, that’s a very harmful thing for a person to feel. And, you know, I can only imagine how much worse it is when you’re at the intersection of if you’re fat and queer and a black or brown person. It’s not great to grow up thinking that you have this deep, deep flaw.So it was something that I, you know, just didn’t even think about film or TV. My body’s been many different shapes and sizes and weights over the years, but after coming to New York, I started to find a little bit more success in that on-camera world. And I think the industry also just started to open up in those years, and you started to see more people with a wider variety of shapes and sizes. And so, it was like, “Oh, oh, this is something I could do.”Megan Gill: Wow. Yeah.Alena Acker: And I eventually reached a point where I started to feel like, you know what?I’m okay the way that I am. And that, you know, comes from a lot of therapy, a lot of talking to other friends who are fat, just learning, experiencing things.But I got to a point, I had lost a bunch of weight again in like 2019, and then in 2021, my dad passed away. And it was during the experience of that happening that I gained the weight back because it was it stressful, and nobody wants to sit there and count calories when someone very important to you is dying.Megan Gill: Wow, yeah.Alena Acker: And so, it was after that point that I was like I’m done. I’m done with diets. I’m done losing weight and gaining it back again. This is just gonna be it, and what I’m really gonna work on now just accepting who I am no matter what, you know, and sort of unpacking what have these feelings from youth about myself and about having something wrong with myself, just where do they come from and why are they there, and when are they popping up, and how can I reframe them for myself. And so, I really got to this point where I was like I don’t care about that anymore. I can have confidence. I can love myself. It’s normal for a person’s body to change over the course of their life. And I started to see my career take off a little bit more at that point.So I started booking more commercials, and I got this role in an off-Broadway play. It was a revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana. And in this play, I had to wear a 1930s, 1940s-style bathing suit onstage for pretty much the entire time. And I felt okay about it, you know? It was really – it was so cool. I was like just like, “Oh, yeah!” And I have, you know, this cellulite on my thighs, and I’m running around. And part of what made that okay for me is that I was like this character does not care. This character gives zero fucks about what anybody else thinks of her. I’m playing a pair of obnoxious tourists, so it was really fun to play this role where she’s just laughing maniacally and running around and driving everybody nuts and just wearing this bathing suit. And it was, I mean, an incredible experience for many reasons.I got to work with some of my heroes and get to know them, and I now get to call them friends. And these two wonderful actresses who I really think I was put in that dressing room with them because they are both so unapologetic and so wonderful at standing up for themselves. So that was a really wonderful experience. And one of the things that has helped me a lot when I have these moments, because we all have a moment, you know, when you are in a TV show, when you’re on a commercial, you’re not controlling the camera angles, you know? It’s not your own personal Instagram where you’re you know, doing your poses, working your angles. You get to pick out, you know, the best. And even with headshots and things, you get to pick the ones that you before you share them with people to help you decide. So we all have these moments of, “Oh, god, is that what I look like?” Or, “Oh…”Megan Gill: Yeah, and not to mention when you’re seeing yourself reflected on camera, which, what’s the age-old trope? “The camera adds ten pounds,” or whatever people wanna say, you know?Alena Acker: Right, I mean, it’s a flattening of a three-dimensional being into two dimensions. So you’re gonna look – it also can feel weird to us to hear our voice recorded back, to sort of see things in this different way than they go on from – than they feel in our own bodies, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah. Right, yeah.Alena Acker: But the thing that has really helped me in those moments is to remember that we want to show all of humanity in our TV shows, on our commercials, in the art that we make. That it’s we want to represent everyone, or at least I think the best art that’s out there does that.Megan Gill: I agree.Alena Acker: And so, if I’m like, “Oh my god, had no idea I had so many chins,” I can say to myself, “What if there’s somebody out there who sees this, and for a minute, they feel like, “Oh, well that lady on that commercial looks me, so maybe I’m not so bad,” or “So maybe it’s fine,” or “Maybe the way I look is normal,” you know? There could be someone out there who’s excited see me on camera. There could be somebody out there – thankfully, I don’t think it’s quite the way it was when I was a kid, but in a way, I get to be that person that I didn’t really see –Megan Gill: Oh, that you needed!Alena Acker: – when I was little. You know?Megan Gill: Oh, my god, yeah.Alena Acker: So that feels really exciting to get to represent people who may feel underrepresented in media or to get to reflect back to someone something that feels, you know, representative of them. That’s really exciting. And so, that’s been a really powerful reframe for me is just being able to, anytime I catch myself in one of those moments, be like, “Well, somebody’s gonna feel happy to see someone who looks like me exactly as I look in this particular frame, in this particular project.Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s so powerful. And someone’s gonna feel seen in seeing you in this way, which is…Alena Acker: Exactly, exactly.Megan Gill: Ah, and just even hearing you say that you are being the person on camera, or on screen, who you little-you needed to see. And I think that sometimes the reframes are just so needed to pull us out of our own heads too and to just remind us why we’re doing this thing in the first place.Alena Acker: Yeah.Megan Gill: Because it’s so easy – especially when our bodies are the forefront of our work. It’s so easy to – I know from experience, as well, being an actor. We hyper-fixate, over-obsess about what we look like and try to control every little thing, and it’s hard to let go of control and to accept and to say, “Nope. Yep, I I’m gonna show up –.” I’m in my mid-thirties, but I am really, really trying to not give into Botox, so I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, no, it’s okay,” seeing my crow’s feet and my forehead wrinkles. I just got headshots taken a couple weeks ago and got ‘em back, and I was like, “Wow, never seen these forehead wrinkles,” the way I had in that shoot. But I’m doing a similar reframe as you like, yes, no, but for me, and for my mission as an actor, this is good because this is what happens when you age. This is normal for someone in her mid-thirties to have them. We’re gonna roll with it because that’s what we’re doing right now for us. That might not work for somebody else, but yeah, the reframe is really powerful, so thank you for sharing that.Alena Acker: Yeah, because it’s like how can we get to a point where people feel less pressure to do these things unless they can see an example of what it is, too.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alena Acker: And these kinds of decisions are up to people as individuals and what they need to do, but I do feel it’s like people need to know what the alternative looks like. These sort of brainwashing “ideals” that we are inundated with.Megan Gill: Yes. And what’s interesting is that the way in which we are inundated with them is via the media, and yet here we are in the media trying to counteract that. So it’s just this interesting opposition and nuance that we’re holding here with wow, it all exists under the umbrella of the media. But also I do think it’s really cool and powerful, as actors, to be able to show up in that way and to kind of try to fight back and counteract all of that brainwashing. If we can do anything here during our time as artists, how cool is that, right?Alena Acker: I mean, I think it’s very cool.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alena Acker: And so, it’s interesting though, because I do have a little bit of a curve ball for you.Megan Gill: Okay, great.Alena Acker: All of this kind of said. So I’ve gotten to this place where I’m like all right, I can represent people, and I can be happy about that and proud of that. And I can accept my body the way it is now, in this moment, and accept myself for who I am and love myself. And it’s always, I think, gonna be an ongoing thing of remembering to do that, remembering that it’s like, “Okay, I love me. I’m okay the way I am.” You need those reminders. It’s not like you just become cured.Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s ongoing work, for sure.Alena Acker: It is ongoing work. But my curve ball is this, which is that a few months ago I found out that I have a genetic predisposition for heart disease. So it’s called Lipoprotein(a). It’s a subfactor of your LDL cholesterol, or a sub-particle, and it’s sticky. So it sticks to your your blood vessels, and it makes you more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, heart disease, stroke, heart attack, you know, things like that, which are serious concerns. Because heart disease kills more people in our country than all the cancers combined each year.So I found this out, and I saw a cardiologist, and he was like, “So this is a thing that, at this point in medicine, there’s nothing we can do about. There are no medicines or therapies that can change this thing.” And so, when you have this, you really need to attack your other risk factors. And so, he and I, after much discussion and debate, decided to put me on a GLP-1, which I’ve been on for about six weeks now. So this has been a very – it was a really difficult decision. And, you know, this is something where I don’t feel that people have to justify these decisions to anyone.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alena Acker: But the reason that I wanna go through it or explain it is that maybe it’ll help somebody else. And I just feel like that’s a pretty hard left turn, right, to go from, “I’m great at any weight,” to “And now I’m taking this weight-loss drug.”Megan Gill: Yeah.Alena Acker: And I was just sort of like, “Oh, my god. Do I want to do this? Is this a betrayal now, then, of fat people that I love in my life, the women and people that I’m representing on screen?” it really felt like – I’m like I’ve just gotten to this place where I feel cool, and now I’m gonna change my body again? It was really tough. And it brings up all these things around, well, am I gonna book fewer roles because I’ve sort of experienced this career uptick at a higher weight, and is that gonna affect the way people cast me and the way people see me and all of the little, logistical – you know, I’m gonna need new headshots, and when am I gonna tell my reps.Megan Gill: All the things.Alena Acker: Even stuff as wild as I shot this pilot, a small role, a couple of scenes in a pilot back in October, and I don’t know if it’s gonna be picked up to series, and I don’t know if I will be invited back if it does get picked up to series, but I could, because my character is in the workplace of one of the main characters. And so, it’s this thing of, “What if they ask me back, and I look completely different, and then I lose the opportunity because of that?” I really was just sort of spiraling out about how much this is going to change, or could change things. But, ultimately, I just felt this is something I need to do for my health. It’s something where I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight.It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight or any shape or any size as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in.Megan Gill: Right. Which is hard work, regardless.Alena Acker: Yeah, it’s an interesting position that I find myself in.“As a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility.”- Alena AckerAlena Acker is a New York-based actor who often plays characters that seem ordinary at first but are surprisingly complex once you dive deeper. She’s the shy nerd who stands up for herself, the wacky teacher who might actually teach you something, the pious innocent who’s anything but.TV credits include NBC’s Law and Order, HBO Max’s And Just Like That (The Sex and the City Reboot) and the upcoming FX Pilot Disinherited from Better Call Saul Showrunner Peter Gould.She has graced international stages performing in plays and musicals - favorite credits include The Off Broadway Revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana at the Signature Theatre, starring Tim Daly, Daphne Rubin-Vega and Lea DeLaria, directed by Emily Mann; as well as Drama Desk nominated the Ryan Case 1973 and the role of Typhoid Mary in The Trial of Typhoid Mary with Live-In Theater. She also performed at the Gyeonggi English Village theme park in South Korea, delighting family audiences as a clumsy witch, a cheerful unicorn, a menacing pirate and everything in between.LA Comedy Festival, the NY Fringe Festival, UCB and the PIT audiences know her from Mother Eve’s Secret Garden of Sensual Sisterhood, a musical self-help satire in which she played Rhododendron, a timid woman with low self-esteem who gains confidence and learns to love herself–not without plenty of laughs along the way.Alena has performed her original character comedy with Characters Welcome, at The PIT and at Second City NYC and has appeared in numerous commercials for well-known brands.A graduate of the University of Michigan with a double major in Theatre and German Language and Literature, she spent her junior year abroad and speaks fluent German.Alena lives with her husband and cat Sophie and is a New York City triathlon finisher.Follow Alena on InstagramCheck out her IMdBSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss ideas relating to diet culture and self-image. Please take care of yourselves as you listen, and please avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone please welcome Tatiana Pavela to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tatiana and I are a both a part of The Spark (Amy McNabb’s mindset-focused membership for ambitious, heart-centered actresses), and it’s fun because she’s a Chicago-based actress, theatre artist, and teaching artist (which is just fun for me because I adore Chicago so much and lived/worked there prior to moving to the beach). I was thrilled to sit down with Tatiana and discuss body image.When I read this quote on her website, “As a teaching artist, she has worked with students of all ages to guide actors to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous,” I knew I was in for a treat with this conversation.In our conversation, we discuss…* Working through fear as an actor* Getting comfortable with being profoundly uncomfortable* People telling us “no” fuels the fire* Her changing body leading to an autoimmune disorder* The realization that she doesn’t have as much control over her body as she once thought she did and coming to terms with that* The nuance of wanting to accept her body but also wanting it to change* Our bodies are designed to fail* Her fearlessness and vulnerability in showing the range of humanity onstage as an actor* The pressure we put on ourselves to be perfect as actors, but the reality being that these characters we’re playing are inherently imperfect beings (just like all of humanity)* We are taught to hate our bodies, and we are taught to not listen to our bodies and override them - how this led Tatiana to a post-sickness diagnosis of mono* Creating space to listen to your voice and hear your body* We discuss joy and the things we both find joyful in our day-to-day lives* We have a big chat about delicious food at the end, so grab your snacks ◡̈I cannot even tell you how many little golden nuggets of wisdom are within this 54-minute conversation - I hope you enjoy this one. Tatiana is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to our bodies as actors, the patriarchy + our societal conditioning, and ultimately coming back to ourselves. She’s also absolutely hilarious and wonderful. I truly, truly cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“I’m a fat actor. I would love to be thin. I have tried my entire life to be thin. Sometimes I have been thinner than others, but it’s just like it’s constantly something that I’m wrestling with. And I’ve always questioned, “If I wasn’t an actor, would I have this same relationship?” You know what I mean? And me and my actor friends, when they talk about their mom trying to lose weight or whatever, we’re like, “What does she care? She’s not an actor!” Like, “Live your fat life. Live your midsize life, and stop worrying about —,” you know what I mean? And so, it’s always like — this is so connected. I mean, I do think ultimately it’s like. every woman does feel this. It’s heightened for actors and people that are in front of other people.”- Tatiana PavelaBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at just after the 22-minute mark:Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it feels like we’re sliding backwards now, to be honest. But the thing that I’ve been telling myself since – because even when I was “thinner,” I was still larger than everyone else around me. Do you know what I mean? It’s kind of a sign that’syou know, “Tatiana, to a certain extent, you’ve always been this.”But the thing that I would tell myself, and I still do tell myself, is my goal as an actor is to show the range of humanity as much as possible, and I can do that. You know, and it’s so – yeah, it’s like if I can be as fearless – let’s go back to fear, right? If I can be as fearless onstage, I can be as vulnerable, if I can be like, “Look at this. Look at this heartbreak, look at this. This happened on stage. Look at this, look at this, look at this,” you know? I just did a play, and my goal was how vulnerable can I be every night. Can I shed my skin so that they can see this journey? And it’s just like – yeah, that’s my goal. It’s a challenge to myself. It’s like, “I dare you. I dare you to work through your fear so that you can show more humanity to people.”Megan Gill: Yeah, because we need it now more than ever.Tatiana Pavela: Because we need it, and because it’s true. You know what I mean? I’m sure so many people have said this on your podcast, but it’s like we’re out here living our lives. I’m in love. I have a wonderful relationship. So many crazy things have happened to me, good and bad. Do you know what I mean? That it’s just like I’m not just here as, you know, young mom number one auditioning for a Triscuit commercial.Megan Gill: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, 100%. And that’s not to say that if you were in a smaller body, that it wouldn’t be “easier,” or that there wouldn’t be more bookability or more roles available, and I fucking hate that so goddamn much.Tatiana Pavela: Let it out. Let it out!Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s just – and I also just wanna say that too, because that’s also just a very real part of what’s wrong with the industry and what I would like to change about the industry, if I could. Yeah.Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it’s hard. It does feel we’re sliding backwards, you know what I mean, in terms of plus-size clothing availability –Megan Gill: Yes.Tatiana Pavela: – in stores. I remember when Athleta started offering their plus-size in store, and it was so awesome. I was like, “I’ll give you all my money.” Do you know what I mean? Like this is amazing. This is great. And then when they recently pulled that back, I was like oh man, do you know what I mean? It just happens over and over again where lines are closing or it’s not offered in store. It just feels like a lot of this is moving backwards.Megan Gill: Yeah.Tatiana Pavela: And so, how’s your body image now Tatiana? Well, it was better a few years ago.Megan Gill: Right, right.Tatiana Pavela: It was better two years ago. But I mean… and then the thing that I can just tell myself is – and it sounds so pretentious to be like, “Oh, I’m gonna be an example to people,” but is that it’s just like, look, I love when I’ve seen fat women onstage, you know what I mean, especially as love interests where it had nothing to do with fat.Megan Gill: Yep.Tatiana Pavela: I was just like, just be that example for someone else, you know? And my students, who are adults, there’s so much fear in them, and there’s so much think-we-need-to-be-perfect before we do the thing. And I’m like no one’s perfect. You kind of have to be strong and wrong.How I’ve learned anything in this industry is by doing it wrong and having someone tell me the right way to do it, or, “Don’t do it that way. Do it like this,” you know? And it’s like… one of my students was talking about their need for perfectionism, and I was thinking about it on my walk home after class where I was like how interesting, how unfortunate, how bizarre, how weird, how whatever that we think, as artists, we need to be perfect, but the thing that we are trying to represent is imperfect, always. Humanity is always imperfect, and that’s what makes it interesting. And those are the stories that we want to watch, and yet, we think we need to be perfect in order to represent that.Megan Gill: Yeah.Tatiana Pavela: Why?Megan Gill: Seriously why. Make it make it make sense! And we think that our bodies need to be this image of perfection or acceptable in order to tell these stories. For me, a big thing now that I’m in my early thirties, approaching my mid-thirties is I have never had Botox, and I am now seeing my deeper lines. I just got headshots done, and I’m like, “No, bitch. You are not doing that.” And you know what? If people, if actors want to, more power to you. Do what works for you. For me, kind of like you were saying, I’m challenging myself to not because I want to be that face that looks the age that I am, and I wanna tell those stories with this face and with this body, and it is so damn hard. But it’s like we also need that. Sure, we need the 35-year-old women with Botox. Yes, that’s needed too. But also, my forehead wrinkles and my smile lines are also needed. They’re both needed.Tatiana Pavela: Have you seen “The Beat In Me” with Claire Danes?Megan Gill: Yes. Yes. Wait, with the – she’s the writer, she’s the writer.Tatiana Pavela: She’s the writer. So I say this completely neutral. You see her, and she looks older, right? I’ve been watching her since “My So-Called Life” days. When I saw her face, when I first started watching that series, I breathed a sigh of motherfucking relief I didn’t realize I was holding. I was like, “Oh, my god.”Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s beautiful.Tatiana Pavela: It was like – because you could see everything on her face. You could see every emotion, everything she’s holding, everything she’s thinking. I mean, truly, truly phenomenal. And the thing that I love about her and Matthew Rhys in the show is you never know what they’re gonna do, and when they do it, it’s always the more psychopathic choice. You’re just like, “Oh, my god!”Megan Gill: It really is such a good show.Tatiana Pavela: It’s incredible.Megan Gill: It took me a second to piece together…Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much out there right now that it’s like, “Wait, did I watch that? I don’t know, maybe?”Megan Gill: “I know I’ve seen it! I know I’ve seen Claire Danes in a series recently, but I need to visualize it for one second, yep.” Yeah, you’re so right.Tatiana Pavela: When I saw her, it was a sigh of relief, and it was like, “Oh my god, this is incredible.” And I mean, at the end of the day too, it’s like, look, yeah, do whatever you want to do. Do you know what I mean? I have so many friends, more people than I know are probably on Botox, you know what I mean? It’s like everybody’s doing it, but I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men.Megan Gill: Yep.Tatiana Pavela: It pisses me off –Megan Gill: Same.Tatiana Pavela: – so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”Megan Gill: Yeah.Tatiana Pavela: And so, I remember when I first started going to therapy years ago, when all this started happening with my body and changing or whatever, and my therapist was like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” And I was like, “What do you mean? What a stupid question! What do you mean? We all hate ourselves! We’re all taught that. All women are taught that.”Megan Gill: Literally.Tatiana Pavela: Every magazine, every book. Why are you asking me like it’s coming from a little secret, little source, you know what I mean?Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like I can pinpoint one thing? It’s like, “It’s everything!”Tatiana Pavela: It’s like literally everything.Megan Gill: “It’s my mom, even though she really didn’t mean to,” you know? Yeah. Yeah.Tatiana Pavela: I know. It’s wild. It’s wild. It’s like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” “Who taught me to love myself?”Megan Gill: God, right. Where’s that? Where’s that at?Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Like…Megan Gill: Certainly not in my college theater program. Whoops, I said it.Tatiana Pavela: Name names. Name names! I mean, it’s so hard. It’s so hard in this industry. The other thing that I come back to is that there’s no guarantee for a career. So whatever you look like, it still always – it might never happen to you. You may never get your big break. Nothing is guaranteed, and no one has the same path as anyone else. And so, you kind of can’t say, “If this happened, what –,” do you know what I mean? Because the times in my life where I felt like, “Okay, I’m gonna do this or get this role, whatever, and this is gonna be a stepping stone to someone else,” it’s like no. It wasn’t.Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah!Tatiana Pavela: You’re back at square one.Megan Gill: Right, right. Totally. We might as well live as peacefully as we can and as free as we can in these bodies that we have and that do incredible things for us and allow us to do the incredible work that we do, and just try going back to that acceptance piece of what you were touching on earlier when you said, “Either I can have that unattainable thing and try to fight to work towards that unattainable thing that society tells me I need to be for my whole life, or I can just say, fuck it. This is me. I feel good,” for the most part. We don’t always feel good.Tatiana Pavela: Yeah.Megan Gill: “I know how to take care of my body. I know how to nourish my body. I know how to experience joy in my body and just feel a little bit more mentally free,” and I feel like that’s almost the win.Tatiana Pavela: Experiencing joy in your body is the win because we are taught to ignore our bodies. We’re taught to override. We’re taught to keep going. We’re taught to push, push, push, push, push, and not be in tune with what we feel at all, wou know what I mean? Especially when you’re in a rigorous kind of training program as artists or whatever, right? It’s like, “Keep going, keep going, keep going,” you know? And, okay, so this is wild. This is something that kind of stopped me in my tracks that no one will probably think is wild except for me.Megan Gill: I can’t wait to hear.Tatiana Pavela: When I was getting all of this stuff figured out, right, it was a couple of years after grad school, and my third doctor at this point was doing all these tests and everything, and she was like, “Oh yeah, so when did you have mono?” And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “No, you definitely had mono. It’s in your blood,” or something had come up, right? And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “Well, you had mono.”Yeah. So I’m like, “Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So this mono – I think about this thing that lays people down for a month – you are too tired to get out of bed or whatever – I probably had it in grad school or the years after. And I remember the days when I was so tired. I remember every day I spent more money on coffee than food. Do you know what I mean? It’s just like I was so tired, and I just overrode that. I did not miss one day, one class in three years, one rehearsal, nothing. And I’m just like that was applauded. This thing of – I was like, “Damn, that’s powerful.” And then I’m like, “No, no, no. That’s overpowering. That is not powerful. That is you being so, so not able to listen to your body that you have no idea what’s up.”“I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men. It pisses me off so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”-Tatiana PavelaTatiana Pavela is a Chicago-based actress and theatre artist who gravitates towards experimental theatre, devised work and heightened language. As a teaching artist and private coach, she loves working with actors of all levels to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous. She has worked in various theaters across the US and internationally, but holds a special place in her heart for her solo show Brandi Alexander (Week 1 Critic’s Pick from The List, Edinburgh Festival Fringe; Artist Trust Award - Seattle, WA). Happiest in the water or in a rehearsal room.Visit Tatiana’s WebsiteFollow Tatiana on IGSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Shalon Dozier to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Shalon is a plus fit model (for brands like Skims, Good American, Cato, Adidas and any popular brand in Nordstrom’s, Target, Walmart). She is also the owner of The Dozier Agency in Los Angeles, CA, which is a plus-size fashion consultation firm who consults brands on what plus-size women want when it comes to their clothing. She and I met modeling for some of the same clients, and I knew I wanted to bring her in for a conversation about body image.Shalon has been a range of sizes on the spectrum, and her story of realizing she didn’t have to change her body to have success as a fit model gives me chills.In our conversation, we discuss…* How Shalon got her start in the fit model industry* Her realization and understanding that her body and its biggest was needed in this industry, and she could maintain it* The feeling when a friend asks if she fit a plus-size garment because it actually fits well* How fit modeling is not for the faint of heart* The lack of plus-size representation in the rooms where decisions are being made about plus-size fashion* The lack of inclusion of plus-size bodies in the fashion industry as a whole* Taking action to make this industry more inclusive for plus-size bodies* How being discovered by Torrid kick-started her whole career and catapulted her into an inclusivity revolution* Understanding the history of fashion and where the standards originated* Rewriting the narrative to de-center the male gaze in the fashion industry* Remembering the “why” behind the work we do as fit models* The keys to being a great fit model* How Shalon ended up founding her agencyShalon is a gem of a human being and an extremely knowledgeable model. This was such an educational conversation to be part of, and I hope you take so much away from the intersection of Shalon’s expertise and lens on the state of the industry and being a plus model in today’s fashion industry climate. Shalon is truly for the girls and women she works with and represents, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“ If you want to make money, make the damn (plus-size) clothes!”- Shalon DozierBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 9-minute & 20-second mark:Shalon Dozier: You have to have kind of a thick skin to do this because they’re gonna talk about your body, and they’re gonna talk about you like you’re not even human.Megan Gill: And they’re gonna talk about you right in front of you.Shalon Dozier: In your face!Megan Gill: While you’re in your bra and underwear.Shalon Dozier: In your underwear and your bra! In front of a whole room of people.Megan Gill: Yeah, yep. It’s so true.Shalon Dozier: Okay, so you have to be thick-skinned. I think you’ve got to love this. It’s very niche, but you’ve got to love it. And I know that there’s a big influx of plus-size people wanting to get into the fit modeling industry. And I’m totally for all of that. But this is something that – it’s not like a means to end – it is a means to an end, but it’s not that. If you really want to be successful in this – and where I got my success was that I literally was like, “This is an untouched market.” I was like, “You mean to tell me you’re gonna pay me hundreds of dollars an hour to tell you what I think about some clothes?” And the rest of the models that I knew and circles that I knew was like, “Oh, fit modeling? I don’t think so. I want to be in a campaign.” And I was like, “That’s fine,” because I’m gonna haha to the bank because this is something untouched. And you have to look at it like that. Like it’s not this thing like a means to an end, you know what I mean? And that’s where a lot of girls, I think, lose their success in it or burn out because they’re just like, “Wait a minute. So I do this day in, day out? I have to keep up with my body? I have to do this da, da, da?” You have to really love to do this.Megan Gill: It’s very true.Shalon Dozier: Seriously.Megan Gill: I can absolutely co-sign that myself, and it’s cool because I, over the past six years, have grown to love it. And at first, like the first time someone is talking about your body in front of you in front of a room of people, it is so jarring and it’s so like, “Wait, what’s going on?”Shalon Dozier: Yes.Megan Gill: But if you have the, if you have the understanding that, sure, it’s about your body, but it’s not about your body. It’s about producing the best clothes that we can produce for so many people. You’ve got to separate yourself from that a little bit. I feel like it’s really helpful. But also how lovely that your experience with fitting has brought you to understand that you don’t need to be smaller and that you can maintain where you are.Shalon Dozier: Yes.Megan Gill: And if you do maintain where you are, then you can help create these clothes that so many other plus-size women need. Like that piece of it all is just really special and so important.Shalon Dozier: Yes! Yes, that to me is amazing, and it’s really good when I get friends who text me, and they’re like in the Target like dressing room, and they’re like, “Did you? Were you the fit model for this? Because girl, look at this. This looks good on me, girl!”Megan Gill: Yeah.Shalon Dozier: Or, “Shalon, did you do these jeans? These are amazing!”Megan Gill: Yeah.Shalon Dozier: And it feels like that little – those little messages let me know that I’m working and my purpose because I’m a girl’s girl. I want us all to win, and I am about us all feeling good in the skin you’re in. It’s like I did a post the other day, I’m no woman’s competition. I want us all to win.Megan Gill: Yeah.Shalon Dozier: I want us all to feel beautiful. I didn’t get in this to be like, “Ha, I’m better than you. Ha!” No. I’m like, “Girl, I’m standing, taking the hits, you know, them talking about my body, for this to fit good for you to have a great product that you feel good about when you walk out in the street.”Megan Gill: Yes.Shalon Dozier: “You’re welcome!”Megan Gill: Absolutely, and that’s why you say you have to love it because you are taking the hits, and granted, it’s not – okay, taking the hits is not – I don’t know. It’s not like people are being always blatantly like –Shalon Dozier: No, it’s not that.Megan Gill: But it’s in the little nuance of things that people say, and when you’re with a client, and there’s just like a little tiny comment that doesn’t feel like a big deal. But to some people, I’m like, it could be a huge deal.And I had an epiphany a year or two ago, like when I was in the thick of getting into the body image work myself and really feeling like I was coming to a really good place – I was in a good relationship with my body, it dawned on me that some people who maybe didn’t have a good relationship with their body or who were in the thick of eating disorders or who had really bad body dysmorphia, it might not be good for them to be in this industry and to be doing this work.Shalon Dozier: No.Megan Gill: Because it could really mess with your brain if you’re not careful and if you don’t have the understanding of the broader reason behind what’s going on here.Shalon Dozier: A hundred percent.Megan Gill: Yeah.Shalon Dozier: You got to be – like I said, this is not something for the faint of heart. I’ve had people say, “Oh, I could be a fit model!” And I’m like, “Okay. Sure.” Because you have to have a thick skin. There are times that I have literally walked out in a situation where I was in tears, okay? There’s a flip side. There’s a great side to it. I love what I do; it’s like I have friends, I’ve met these amazing people, I’ve met you. I have all these wonderful people in my life that I have gained over my time in the industry, right? And there’s something to be said about when a room is listening, and it’s like the CEO of a company, and they’re like, “Can you say that in our sales meeting?” You know what I mean?Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah.Shalon Dozier: Granted, yes. But then there are times, like you’re saying, those little nuances, that at the quietude of you being in your home, you’re like, “That shit hurt my feelings,” you get what I mean?Megan Gill: Absolutely.Shalon Dozier: And then the next day, you’ve got to shake it off and go in there and be a badass. You get what I mean?Megan Gill: Absolutely, one hundred percent.Shalon Dozier: So you have to really love yourself and accept yourself for exactly who you are, you know what I mean? And go in there with, “God put me in this purpose for a reason, and it’s to help other women and other people.”Megan Gill: Absolutely, mic drop to all of that. And then to just add on another layer to what you are talking about, this is our livelihood, and therefore if a client is talking about your body and how it might not work for them any longer or something of the sort, not to mention like the mental gymnastics that we have to do as the models to be like, “Okay, am I gonna lose this client? This is part of what I’m paying my bills with.” That that comes along with it too is also not for the faint of heart because it’s tough. It’s tough.Shalon Dozier: Yeah, it is. No, it’s super tough, and I think where I’m noticing, as a plus model, and this is where it’s affecting my livelihood is I’m a child of God. I’m a Christian, so I believe that God will provide for me no matter what, okay? But I have noticed a decline in work. And I seriously believe and I’ve been told by certain companies, “Oh yeah, we’re not doing plus anymore.” And I’m like, “Okay, but they are still plus-size women – there are still fat girls –,” and I say fat lovingly because I’m fat, so I can say that. You know what I mean? But, “Okay, there are still plus-size women out there that still want to buy clothes!”Megan Gill: Right! “From you. Probably because they know that you’re producing, you’ve been producing them. What do you mean you’re just gonna stop?” To get on what you’re saying, I’ve noticed, and a lot of plus-size models in the industry, we’ve all noticed that there’s a lack of plus-size bodies, plus-size presence in fashion week now, on runways. There’s a lack of plus-size people being shown in e-comm, on certain companies that were inclusive at one time and are no longer, you know what I’m saying?Megan Gill: Yep.Shalon Dozier: We are watching this in real frickin’ time. And my thing is – and I will die on this hill – when I came into this business. it was $3 billion for plus. In 11 years, it has gone to $34 billion. We have spending power. We are here buying the clothes. We have the money to spend. We like to dress. We like to look good. So my question is, when it’s this paradigm shift that you’re talking about with clients and no longer needing your body type, it’s like, “Are you crazy? Because do you not want to make money?”Megan Gill: Literally!Shalon Dozier: “Do you not want to make the money?” But what I’ve found is it’s happened to me, and then they have to ask me to come back.Megan Gill: Uh-huh. I know we’ve spoken about that before. Yep. “I’m sorry, what?”Shalon Dozier: Oh yeah. And, “We’re not gonna do plus.” And it’s, “Oh, that was a mistake. Mm-hmm. We want that money. Hi, can you come back? We’re gonna be doing inclusive again.” You know what I mean?And I do believe that there is about to be this wave – we’re on the tail end of lack of inclusivity because this is something that happened long before the Trump administration did away with DEI. That’s the thing people don’t know is that the lack of inclusion, in terms of plus-sized bodies, happened long before this, okay? This whole situation with DEI being removed was just kinda like the icing on the cake. Well, because of our economy being so bad, companies are actually like – actually, after I did that post on my Instagram that we talked about, it was like literally a literal shifting again. And it’s shifting again, where people started being like, “Hey, we have a line. Would you like to come in? Can we meet with you?” And I was like, “Wait a minute, my phone is ringing now!”Megan Gill: It’s almost like who do you stand for? If you are gonna get rid of plus, or if you’re just not gonna have a plus line, do you stand with the,m or are you trying to do the right thing and do better for the people of the world, of this country?Shalon Dozier: Personally, yeah, I would like to believe that’s what it is. But I’m gonna say that this is about money. It’s about business. It’s about if it doesn’t make dollars, it doesn’t make sense. But the problem is that a lot of these companies are making these decisions without plus-sized people in the room. You cannot make a decision for what I want, what my friends want, family members want, that are plus-size, and you’ve been a size two all your life. You don’t know what I want. And it’s no amount of you having an MBA or you having enough business skills in sales or merchandising is going to allot you to know what my body wants.Megan Gill: Yep. What the lived experience is.Shalon Dozier: You are basing it on a personal opinion, and then when you indoctrinate that personal opinion into your company, and the sales drop, then you have to go, “Oh, my bad. Yeah, come back, actually,” you know what I mean? And what I find is that there have been times with companies, even famous, infamous, plus-sized companies – will remain nameless. I did a sales meeting one time, and I was the only plus-sized person in the room, and this is like a tried-and-true plus-sized brand. And I was like – I sat back like, “Ooh, if everybody knew that these people making the decisions for this, nobody’s plus-size.”Megan Gill: It just doesn’t make sense.Shalon Dozier: Make it make sense.Megan Gill: So it’s like where’s the representation in front of the camera, and where’s the representation behind the camera or behind the scenes, you know?Shalon Dozier: Yes, yes.Megan Gill: Because we need both.Shalon Dozier: Yes, you do. And I don’t see plus-size – sometimes I’m the only plus-sized person in the room to this day. Okay, so that tells me a lot, and what I’ve learned in my career and how I started consulting is that I had a tech designer tell me once, she was like, “You’re such a wealth of knowledge because you don’t only just fit for us. You fit, you give out pattern correction callouts.” She was like, “And you consult us. You literally ask a question like, ‘Oh, this is cute. So how are you gonna market this to us? Oh, what are you gonna put with that?’” You know what I mean? And I’ve had to, because I’m like, I like to shop! So, “How are you gonna present this to somebody? How are you gonna do that?”“It’s really good when I get friends who text me, and they’re like in the Target dressing room, and they’re like, “Did you? Were you the fit model for this? Because girl, look at this. This looks good on me, girl!” Or, “Shalon, did you do these jeans? These are amazing!” And it feels like that little – those little messages let me know that I’m working and my purpose because I’m a girl’s girl. I want us all to win, and I am about us all feeling good in the skin you’re in. It’s like I did a post the other day, I’m no woman’s competition. I want us all to win. I want us all to feel beautiful. I didn’t get in this to be like, “Ha, I’m better than you. Ha!” No. I’m like, “Girl, I’m standing, taking the hits, you know, them talking about my body, for this to fit good for you to have a great product that you feel good about when you walk out in the street.”- Shalon DozierShalon Dozier is a Los Angeles based, full-time size 16/18 fit model and fashion industry leader with a career rooted in advocacy, expertise, and representation. She has worked extensively with top denim and apparel brands including Good American, Reformation, NYDJ, AVA&VIV, Max Studio, Celebrity Pink and 7 For All Mankind, and is proudly the first Target Certified Plus Size Fit Model for the California.In addition to her work as a fit model, Shalon is the owner of the only black owned modeling agency on the west coast, creating pathways for greater inclusion and equity within the fashion industry. Her fit clientele spans luxury, contemporary, and mass-market brands such as Fendi, ZARA, IVY PARK, SKIMS, Adidas, Nordstrom, Volcom, Wild Fable, Dia & Co., Stitch Fix, Beyond Yoga, Macy’s, Torrid, and more.Discovered at an early age, Shalon has built a successful career in the plus-size fashion space, including gracing the cover of Plus Model Magazine, modeling e-commerce for SKIMS, and being featured on the website of historic department store Selfridges in London. She has also worked with Banana Republic, Gap, and Orvis, walked in major plus fashion shows, and trained with acclaimed supermodel Coco Rocha and Keenyah Hill.Shalon’s mission is to empower women, challenge outdated beauty standards, and actively reshape the fashion industry to be more inclusive, representative, and equitable.Follow Shalon on InstagramGet in touch with The Dozier Agency!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Cornelia Hanes to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Cornelia and I met in acting class - she’s a phenomenal actress and filmmaker, as well as a lovely human being. The intersection of her work in both the fitness and entertainment industries, not to mention her being a new mama, makes for a vital conversation about body image. There is so much to take away from what we chat about and what Cornelia shares.In our conversation, we discuss…* Doing the inner work to love your body for all it can do* Feeling strong and calling on your body to do incredible things* Creating messy, real, raw female characters in raw, real, messy films* The physical body changes along with the habitual diet/movement changes being a new mom brings* The beauty in feeling strong as hell* Our deepest insecurities will always be with us* Challenging our modern concept of beauty standards* Raising her daughter to non-negotiably care for her body through leading by exampleOur conversation is full of golden nuggets Cornelia shares about her journey with her body, and I’m so excited for you to listen in!“The other day, I was in a parking garage, and the elevators – one didn’t work and one was working, but there was a long line. This was a holiday, so that’s why I didn’t – there was just a lot of people there. And I was like, all right. After seven minutes standing in this queue for getting in the elevator, I was like, I’m just gonna take the stairs. So I took the stroller with my – she’s probably 25 pounds at this point – and the diaper bag, and I just lifted it and walked the stairs. I loved being able to do that. I was like I got this. I’m just gonna carry all of this. And then as I got to where I was going, I met a woman who had two toddlers, and she saw me and she just nodded her head and she’s like, “Hell yeah, strong mom.” And I was like, Ugh. I love the mom community.”- Cornelia HanesBelow is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 19-minute mark:Megan Gill: Okay, so shifting over to you and where you are at now in your life. You are an actor, and you have been working in the health and wellness space for quite a while now, and you are a new mom. So I’m curious how your body image journey has led you now to this place, and kind of if there’s a trajectory of how your relationship to your own body has shifted through different phases of life, and where you find yourself now as a new mom, which I understand does bring up change. You literally housed a baby inside of you for nine months. Of course your body’s changing.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.Megan Gill: I’m just curious your personal experience and if you would be willing to share a little bit about where you’ve been and where you find yourself now.Cornelia Hanes: Yes, so I am in a wonderful place with my body. I have never been so appreciative and grateful for it. I’m so in love with my daughter and the fact that I had a healthy pregnancy, a healthy delivery, she’s thriving. I am just in awe of women’s bodies and being able to create life. So that I feel very grateful to have experienced, and the fact that we are doing well and I had a nice recovery, not without its bumps for sure. And I am nursing still, so a big thing for me is, one, I have to work out. I’m a former athlete, so if I don’t move my body, I go cuckoo. I just do that to move energy and just make sure my head is clear. But that doesn’t necessarily always mean lifting weights. Sometimes that’s a walk outside. It’s just moving the body. So I make sure I get movement every day. I really have to be adamant about protein and calories and drinking at least three liters of water so that my supply doesn’t dip. So that’s where I’m at right now. I gotta make sure that I am still able to feed her and feed myself and do all of that.I’ve had a different experience with body image. So I used to be an elite swimmer, right? I grew up swimming and I’ve always been an athlete, and when I was growing up, I was skinny and I had broad shoulders and I hated that. I just wanted curves. I wanted boobs. I wanted an ass so bad. That’s what I wanted. And so, being a teenager, and then it got better in college, but I was always – I had a swimmer’s body. Sure, I was strong and I was athletic. But it’s so funny, right? You always want what you don’t have, especially as you’re growing up and trying to figure out who you are.Megan Gill: The grass is always greener. So I had a lot of self-doubt around just not looking feminine enough. The fact that I had a big back because I was strong as hell, now I’m like, oh, I wish I would’ve appreciated all the benefits instead. But you’re a teenager. You don’t really think about it that way. And then in college, much of my identity was a swimmer. You know, I was in the pool all the time and competing in NCAA and all of that. So that kind of faded a little bit, and I had a great team of other girls and we were just such a strong unit, that noise dampened a little bit.Megan Gill: I love that.Cornelia Hanes: But still, also, American culture – I don’t know if when the Kardashians came up to light, but again I just wanted to be curvy and I just wanted to feel more like a woman than I did. And, like we talked about with aging, I think I’ve done a lot of work on myself where I’ve just realized that’s just silly. This is the body you have, love it for all it can do. So I’ve done a lot of work on myself in that capacity. And now, I just love feeling strong. I just love being able to call on my body for all of the things.The other day I was in a parking garage, and the elevators – one didn’t work and one was working, but there was a long line. This was a holiday, so that’s why I didn’t – there was just a lot of people there. And I was like, all right. After seven minutes standing in this queue for getting in the elevator, I was like, I’m just gonna take the stairs. So I took the stroller with my – she’s probably 25 pounds at this point – and the diaper bag, and I just lifted it and walked the stairs.Megan Gill: Hell yeah.Cornelia Hanes: I loved being able to do that. I was like I got this. I’m just gonna carry all of this. And then as I got to where I was going, I met a woman who had two toddlers, and she saw me and she just nodded her head and she’s like, “Hell yeah, strong mom.” And I was like, Ugh. I love the mom community of just…Megan Gill: Ah, that makes me emotional.Cornelia Hanes: But I was like, I love that she saw that and recognized that, and she’s probably been there herself.And also, with my my short film, Anaconda, I think I’ve always just been passionate about embracing being perfectly imperfect. And I love seeing women on screen that are messy and just real and raw, and I’ve always tried to mimic that with my filmmaking and my comedy. And so, I think that’s the underlying theme of my adult life, that I just want, any way I can, to make other women feel good in the skin they’re in but also feel empowered and strong from the inside out is really a passion of mine. And if I can help women feel even a little bit better in that sense, that’s just something I love being able to do and feel so passionate about.But I will say even, Anaconda is on Omeleto now, and when we released it to the world, and – you know this – it’s a little daunting releasing a film into the world. And don’t know what I was thinking with the outfits I was wearing in that short, I don’t know. But for some reason, I’m choosing this crop top, and it’s making my shoulders look even wider. And I could tell that came up for me again. It hasn’t really been a thought for a long time. I’ve embraced my athletic body. But there were some comments like, oh, she looks like a dude, or that’s a man or whatever. And my stomach was just like – first it was like, what? And then I just started laughing. I was like that’s very inaccurate, but still, comments like that still –Megan Gill: Yeah.Cornelia Hanes: – sent me back to my teenage self when I was not feeling good in my body and being so self-conscious about that. Now I can look at that and laugh, but in that moment I was like, oh, wow, that was triggering for me.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh my god, it makes so much sense. It’s like these traumas, if you will, body traumas, body image traumas never leave us. And the things about ourselves that we are most insecure about are always going to be there, right, no matter how much work we do. But it’s like, of course, I think we have to – and not that you’re not giving yourself grace, but overarchingly, I think that us women need to give ourselves grace for feeling those things and for having insecurities because of course you felt the way you did in a culture that is obsessed with women that are skinny but not too skinny, but also have a curvy butt and also have big boobs. It’s like nobody – we can’t ever win.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.Megan Gill: My insecurities of having my belly pooch, that is not culturally seen as attractive in a similar sense as being super thin and tall with broad shoulders isn’t necessarily seen as the “ideal.” So it’s like, of course, we are feeling these things, which I think is just important to point out that there is a reason for us to feel like we are not – these parts of ourselves that we’re insecure about are never going to be good enough or accepted or all of that, all of that stuff, all of that noise.Especially as an actor too, because, god, don’t worry, the same experience happens for me as well, or a similar experience of seeing myself on camera and being like – judging my body.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.Megan Gill: And granted, my first film was about body image, so that was such a freeing experience to be like – I remember when I was in pre-production for that project, I was like, “It’s okay. I can eat whatever I want. My body can be however it’s gonna be,” and I’ve carried that forward with me.I do not do the thing of, “Oh, before I’m shooting a film –,” I shot a short film last weekend, and I had a donut on the last day of filming, and I’m not doing this psycho no sugar, no this, no that, which I understand for some people that works and that’s okay, but for me, that’s not a way to live. I’m like, yes, I want to be eating my vegetables, but I’m also allowed to have a fucking donut on the same day that I’m shooting a film.Cornelia Hanes: Of course you are! You get a donut! You get a donut! Everybody gets a donut!Megan Gill: Everybody gets a donut! But yeah, god, it’s like tenfold as an actor. And like even shooting in your own project where you’re like, oh, I had control over what I was wearing. And then I can only imagine reading those types of comments from people. Ugh, it’s like why do they think the way they think? Because they also exist in the same culture that we exist in, which is the reason that we are judging these parts of our bodies in the first place.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.Megan Gill: Oh, god.Cornelia Hanes: And maybe that little voice will always be there, but like you said, how can you give it grace and how can you just shine light on it and be like that’s not necessarily true anymore. You don’t have to buy into that, and you can change the narrative. I’m curious, after Broadway Body, how was the response? Did you read comments? How did you feel with people’s feedback on the film?Megan Gill: I was very self-conscious throughout a lot of the process because my body, though curvier, though on like the curvier side of an average body, if you wanna even say that, I’m still very straight sized.Cornelia Hanes: What is an average body? I don’t know.Megan Gill: I don’t fucking know.Cornelia Hanes: What is that? Sorry to interrupt you, but…Megan Gill: No, you’re fine! You’re fine. When I say it, I’m thinking culturally speaking, what the “ideal” is.Cornelia Hanes: The magazines, the…Megan Gill: What’s pushed in media as being a “good” body to have, which what the fuck is that even? I don’t agree with that.Cornelia Hanes: Magazines? What am I, from the nineties? Media is a better way to it. What we see in the media.Megan Gill: No, I love it. I get it. I knew what you meant. I knew what you meant! But I remember just feeling like I – I was feeling insecure because I felt like my body was too small to be the one telling this story.Cornelia Hanes: Oh.Megan Gill: And I think that’s something that has still stayed with me. Though I’ve worked through it because, listen, I have a body image story just as you have a body image story, just as anybody in any shape and size and color of body has a body image story. So why can I not be the one to tell this story?I’ve heard nothing but great feedback. Granted, the film is not on a big platform like Omeleto, so it’s not – I don’t even think it’s on YouTube. I think it’s on Vimeo, so it’s not really in a public space at the moment to have a bunch of eyes and a bunch of people, random people, commenting on it. But I am very grateful that I didn’t hear certain things and granted like the comments that you were hearing about your body in your film, if people were making those comments to me about my body in a film about body image, that would be wild. But also – yeah, I don’t know.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah, and I think it’s also like why am I paying attention to these few comments, maybe it was like three, instead of the response of, “Oh, this is so funny!” “Oh, I relate to this.” “Oh, this is such a fresh take.” “Oh, I love the characters. It’s so interesting.” Also, why do our minds go to the negative instead of embracing all the positive and being like, “That’s not true,” or whatever, “Fuck you.” So it’s just an interesting – I try to always zoom out a little bit and be like, “Okay, what’s happening here?” Or, “Why do I pay attention to this and not that?” Or, “Why do I give this more brain power than the message, which is embracing and just being imperfect and being messy and just being real. And that’s much more relatable, I think.Megan Gill: Do you wanna share a little bit about Anaconda?Cornelia Hanes: Sure!Megan Gill: For context and to just talk about your work?Cornelia Hanes: Yes, yes! That’s probably helpful.Megan Gill: Oh, you’re fine! I should have asked you earlier!Cornelia Hanes: So Anaconda is a comedic short about a group of friends that go on a road trip to Burning Man. But they don’t quite make it there, so they have to stop in Reno, and there’s only one hotel room left, so they all have to share. And in the middle of the night, there are some things that happen and they take place in a bathroom. And I’m not gonna say anything more than that.Megan Gill: We’ll link to it. We’ll link to it!Cornelia Hanes: Yeah, but I feel like, with Anaconda, I felt encouraged to portray a more accurate reflection of life maybe than people really share even in person, or definitely not on screen. And so, we try to showcase, female characters aren’t afraid to be messy and, in turn, challenge the modern concept of our beauty standards in a silly, fun way.So like I said, it’s about embracing your imperfections. It’s realizing that being imperfect can be pretty attractive. And I just love when I see films that have characters that are real and raw and vulnerable and messy and not pretty and not put together. So I really try to mimic that with my own filmmaking and my comedy, and I love playing characters like that. So it was a lot of fun. Again, it’s very silly. Whenever someone’s, “Oh, I wanna watch it!” I’m like drink a glass of wine, smoke a joint, or whatever is your vibe. And it’s not that serious. It’s meant to be a good time but also have an underlying message, which is cool too.Megan Gill: And imperfect is beautiful and imperfect is the antithesis of our cultural beauty standard and diet culture and all of these things that we are told that we should do and should be, because I’m right there with you. I think that it’s so important to be creating media that has something to say about that and is a comment or just an example of the type of stories and the type of people that I would like to see more of and that I think are just so needed. Which I also think is the way that you’re showing up with your work in the wellness industry as well, I think has a similar vibe, and I just think it’s such incredible work and so needed and so important today and such an important example that we are allowed to be imperfect and we are allowed to listen to our bodies and we are allowed to be strong.Cornelia Hanes: Yes.Megan Gill: And another thing that you said – sorry, I’m all over the place. There are so many things! The other thing you said about how you want to raise your daughter is something else I’d like to circle back to, because when you said that I was like, “Oh, absolutely. Of course.” Do you have anything else – I don’t really have a question around it, but I’m like, yeah, that’s such an important thing, everything that you’ve been through and everything that you’ve learned and are still learning, I’m sure, about how to teach others and lead by example to work to love your body and really take care of your body instead of making it about your body being an ornamental thing. I’m wondering if there’s anything else you’d like to share in terms of how you hope to raise your daughter or even – I know she’s eight months old, but like she’s eight months old. Babies are sponges, right? I’m just curious about that.Cornelia Hanes: I love that question. And it’s fun because when I work with my clients – and I’m thinking about this one woman. She has two kids, and sometimes her oldest will interrupt the workout, but she always lets her, which I think is very cute. She’s like, “Wll right, join me! Now we’re doing this.” I know that some days she says, “Time is sacred for me. Go to your dad or go to your nanny,” or whatever. But the times she does bring her in, I’m like that is so awesome because, one, she sees you take time for yourself, she sees you lift weights, she sees you prioritize working out in your health and just being strong, and what a great role model you are for your daughter. And I’ve always said that to her. And now that I’m in that same boat, she is very much very aware at eight months. It’s very cute. She’s starting to – you can just tell that more is happening back there.Megan Gill: The wheels are turning!Cornelia Hanes: The wheels are turning! So the times where she’s woken up early for her nap and I’m in my workout, I just bring her. And it is so cute to see her watch me with joy, and she’s probably like, “What the hell are you doing? Why are you down on the ground? Why are you lifting that thing over your head?” But I think that’s definitely something I wanna keep doing. I just want to see her – I want for her to see me doing stuff like that, lifting heavy stuff and working out and taking care of my body and prioritizing that and not make that something that’s – honestly, it’s non-negotiable. It’s gonna be a non-negotiable, and it’s not about looking a certain way. It’s about feeling a certain way. And I hope that she will be into sports and be an athlete as well, but if she’s not, that’s also totally cool. But yeah, I’m definitely starting to think about even now, just making sure that I am living the way that I would do her justice, so that I make sure that my behaviors and my patterns are something that I want her to adapt and do as well down the line. And yeah, I think it’s they don’t do what you say they do what you do, right?Megan Gill: Yeah.Cornelia Hanes: It’s that, even now when she’s so young, I think it’s important to bring her into my world in that sense and be outdoors and go on hikes and just…Megan Gill: Yeah, make walking your movement for the day.Cornelia Hanes: Yeah!Megan Gill: So important, yeah.Cornelia Hanes: But I think that’ll probably come up more and more for me as she gets older. It’s still so new, all of it. But I think that’s just non-negotiable. It’s gonna be that we take care of our bodies, and how lucky we are to have a strong body that can take us places and that you can do things with. I guess just having a being grateful for the body you’re in and the things that it can do, more so than the way it looks.Megan Gill: Absolutely 100%. And I just love the point about allowing the child to see mom working out and enjoying it and being joyful and having a good time with it, instead of maybe the way that we were raised where working out was a punishment to either how much you ate. It wasn’t this thing that was culturally seen as a non-negotiable.“   For the everyday average Joe, it’s finding that balance with working out and a balanced diet. It’s so important to not feel shame or guilt, if you can. I talked to a girlfriend of mine the other day about how fortunate we feel that we have such a healthy relationship with food and how that’s quite rare because, as you talked about, just the way we grow up and how the inputs we get as we grow up, we don’t really understand the effect that has until later in life when you start to do your own inner work or it shows up and you just can’t ignore it anymore. And now that I have a daughter, I just really want to make sure that I install the same in her, that food is fuel, and it’s fun, and it’s a way to explore and try different cultures.”- Cornelia HanesCornelia Hanes is a Swedish-born actor, award-winning filmmaker, and former elite swimmer based in Los Angeles. Her creative work often centers on sharp, relatable storytelling—most notably her comedic short film ANACONDA, which earned a feature in Forbes and distribution on Omeleto, YouTube’s premier platform for cinema. The film’s success is underscored by its impressive festival run, securing wins and nominations at 19 out of 30 festivals.Off-screen, Cornelia is dedicated to empowering women through movement and wellness. As a National Academy of Sports Medicine certified Personal Trainer, Precision Nutrition certified nutritionist and a Girls Gone Strong certified pre- and postnatal coach, she helps career moms navigate their fitness journeys. Leveraging her background as an elite athlete, she is passionate about helping women feel their strongest, most confident selves during and after pregnancy.Link to ANACONDA: Anaconda on OmeletoLink to work with me in the fitness world: https://corneliafitness.carrd.co/IG @corneliahanesSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my dear friend Roxana Venzor Garcia to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! As Roxana and I have become closer friends this year, she has been so receptive to my deep affinity and love for talking about body image online. Slowly but surely, she would respond to my posts and share bits and pieces of her story with me. She then came to me with her story being diagnosed with alopecia areata and how much it changed the way she viewed her body, saying how much the work I’ve been doing has inspired her (which, like, INSTANT TEARS for me), and I knew I had to ask her to come have a conversation with me. I’m just amazed at how vulnerable and willing to share her story Roxana was, even though she was nervous and didn’t know she’d ever find herself in a place to share this story without breaking down, and I’m so beyond grateful she trusted this space with me to explore it verbally. This is a powerful conversation on so many levels, and I cannot wait for you to listen!In our conversation, we discuss…* Roxana’s upbringing in a culture that normalizes commenting on bodies* Roxana’s bout with diet pills and an ED* The cultural norm of never being satisfied with our bodies* Her journey with alopecia areata* The direct correlation between treating our bodies well and our overall health and wellness* The emotional rollercoaster from diagnosis to treatment to healing and everything in between* The trauma of losing your hair, especially as a woman* The importance of caring for our mental health in order to be physically healthy too* The power of sharing your struggles online to reach those who need to hear what you’re going through to not feel alone in their struggle* How meaningful basic support from friends and family actually is* Working through no longer letting our bodies define who we are* Finding the gratitude, appreciation, and tenderness for the body that you have right now“ When I went to my doctor, she told me, ‘No, I have a lot of patients like you, but it’s a very hard thing that women go through that nobody wants to share it.’” - Roxana Venzor GarciaIf just one person hears this story, we hope they feel seen and know they are not alone on their journey.Book Roxana refers to in our conversation: You Can Heal Your Life“ So I remember I had one of my best friends till now, she was like, “Hey, my aunt is just taking these pills that make you lose a lot of weight.” And you cannot buy them if you are not 18 years old. We were like 15 at the time and she was like, “But she’s gonna buy them for me, and I’m gonna share them with you, but just don’t say anything.” And I was like, “Perfect.” So I remember just starting taking those pills, and they will make me feel really weird, but I was losing the weight, so I was like, “Perfect.” I think that was probably for a year during high school where I was literally just having one meal a day. My mom was working, at the time, three jobs at the time, so I was the one making food and helping out with my brother, whatever. So I was able to get away with not eating. Also, I lost a lot of weight, and my whole family, my mom, everybody, was like, “Oh my god! You look so pretty! Good job!””- Roxana Venzor GarciaMegan Gill: Hi, Roxana!Roxana Venzor Garcia: Hi!Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you’re here having this conversation with me today, and that you are feeling nervous about it, but doing it anyways!Roxana Venzor Garcia: Thank you for inviting me, and yes, I am nervous, but I’m gonna work through that with our conversation.Megan Gill: I love it. I love it. So can you just start by introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about the type of work that you do in the world?Roxana Venzor Garcia: My name is Roxana. I think I need to say, first and foremost, I’m from Mexico, so there is where the accent is coming from for anybody that is listening. I moved here in 2017, and I work as an RN, and I work in the oncology department with cancer patients. So that’s what I do three times a week for 12 hours. That’s my job.Megan Gill: That’s amazing and so needed in our world, as I’m sure you know. Yeah, so it’s also interesting that you – because I believe everybody has a body image story, no matter who you are, no matter what your body looks like, no matter what you’ve dealt with or haven’t dealt with, your experiences that you may have had. Whatever your life experience and lived experience is, I believe everyone has a body image story. And you so graciously came to me and shared yours. I know that you had shared it on your Instagram, but you sent it over to me to read through, not necessarily the whole of your story, of course.Roxana Venzor Garcia: No.Megan Gill: This shit runs very deep. But before we dive into the specific aspect that you had shared with me, do you wanna talk a little bit about your relationship with your body in general in your life? So obviously now being in your thirties, I feel a lot of women grow into – their relationship with their body grows and flourishes and blooms in a different way than it did in our younger years. So I’m just curious if anything’s coming up for you within that, that you wanna share or talk about?Roxana Venzor Garcia: So I honestly feel everything, my relationship with my body and the way that I always thought and spoke to my body led me to have alopecia areata, which was the problem that I shared with you. My relationship with my body, I feel like as every other woman, has always been – it’s a toxic boyfriend, toxic ex.Growing up Hispanic, growing up Mexican, talking about your body in front of other people, it’s okay in your family. They will always – it’s very toxic, and they will always be talking about your body even if you are not okay with it. I remember growing up, I was in a normal weight. I remember having a normal – I never had any issues or thoughts about my body until – my childhood was not a very easy childhood. I moved a lot. My mom was a single mom, so it was a lot of things, and I remember probably when I started my treatment for alopecia, that’s when I was oh my god, I think I have anxiety since I was five years old, but I didn’t know.Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: So I remember food was a comfort for me. So I remember hiding food in my room when I was little and just eating it at night. And then I will wake up and I will have candy in my mouth. These are things that I haven’t shared with a lot of people, but I remember and that will bring me comfort. And I think that’s when I started gaining weight. So obviously my brother will always make fun of me because my best friend was super skinny and they will say, “Oh look, the number 10 walking.” And I was like, “I’m the zero.”Megan Gill: Wow.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And it’s crazy because I know that my mom was doing the best she could with what she had. She grew up the same or even worse with those comments, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: So she wouldn’t stop it. She wouldn’t say anything. So my brother would be literally my biggest bully sometimes. I have a good relationship with him, but I remember.Megan Gill: Is he older or younger? I’m just curious.Roxana Venzor Garcia: He’s older.Megan Gill: Okay. Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, and then obviously going to visit my family, everybody will have a comment about me and I was there. And then they will say – my mom’s name is Roxana as well. So they will say, “Roxana, she’s getting chubby,” and I was there. Or, “Oh, my god, she’s eating a lot. Maybe you shouldn’t eat another plate,” or things like that. I remember I was probably eight, nine years old, and my mom had my younger brother when I was seven, and I remember my mom was trying to lose weight from her pregnancy, for the pregnancy weight, and there was this book, and I will never forget, it was like “How to lose 25 pounds in 10 days or 15 days,” something like that.Megan Gill: Oh my god, yeah, wild.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And I will never forget. And my mom was, “Hey, Roxana, we’re doing this.” And I was like… I honestly was probably seven, eight years old. She’s like, “We’re doing this.” And I remember it’s, “Oh, okay. I’m gonna lose weight. I’m gonna lose weight.” And I remember she will make breakfast for my brother or whatever, and then it was something really nice and good. And then she – I will never forget; I feel this is a core memory – she brought out two pieces of ham with just a string of cheese, and she’s like, “This is yours.” And I was like, “Oh.” And she’s like, “Because we’re losing weight, remember?”Megan Gill: Oh, my goodness.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And I’m not saying this like, “My mom –.” This is the way that honestly Hispanic families – and I know other cultures, other races is the same, but Hispanic is toxic about women’s bodies and the way that they approach it. I can say that for my family.And yeah, so it was like growing up I always hated my body. The word was I hated my body. I hated it. I always remember feeling – and sometimes I even struggled with that. I always – I grew up feeling less than other people my age, other girls. So obviously I grew up hating my body.And when I was in high school, I remember I really liked this guy, and I was oh my god, he’s never gonna me because I’m fat. So I lost a lot of weight because I just wanted to do it for myself. So I lost the weight and he still didn’t me. And I was like, oh, so it’s not that, it is just…Megan Gill: Oh, wow. It’s so wild because – I just wanna jump in because that is also a core social part of my childhood. My middle school, high school years was me being a chubbier kid and just learning that the cute boys that I had a crush on weren’t gonna like me – just learning. Not that it was true that they weren’t gonna like me because of my body, but it was socialized into my brain that you are a young girl in a bigger body, and therefore cute boys will not like you. That was what I learned.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, boys are not gonna look at you because you are fat, because there are girls that look way better than you. So I feel that’s a universal thing for girls. And that’s the first thing like, if there’s ever a time when a girl loses weight it’s to attract one of the guys that she likes. And that was for me, I was like I don’t know what I did. I honestly, I don’t think I was having any eating disorders at the time. Then after that I was like, okay, he still doesn’t like me, and I was like maybe it’s because I’m still not super skinny or whatever. And obviously other things that growing up like that, obviously, it’s gonna affect you.So I remember I had one of my best friends till now, she was like, “Hey, my aunt is just taking these pills that make you lose a lot of weight.” And you cannot buy them if you are not 18 years old. We were like 15 at the time and she was like, “But she’s gonna buy them for me, and I’m gonna share them with you, but just don’t say anything.” And I was like, “Perfect.” So I remember just starting taking those pills, and they will make me feel really weird, but I was losing the weight, so I was like, “Perfect.” And then I think I started an eating disorder, but it never got to the point that it got out of control. I was able to control it, but I know my best friends will be like, “If you don’t eat, I’m gonna tell your mom.” Or even the gym. I used to go to the gym every single day. If I didn’t go one day, I will cry. I was like, “I missed the gym. I missed the gym.”So my trainer at one point was like, “You are doing things wrong, and I’m gonna talk to your mom.” And I was obviously so scared. I was like, “No!” I think that was probably for a year during high school where I was literally just having one meal a day. My mom was working, at the time, three jobs at the time, so I was the one making food and helping out with my brother, whatever. So I was able to get away with not eating. Also, I lost a lot of weight, and my whole family, my mom, everybody, was like, “Oh my god! You look so pretty! Good job!”Megan Gill: Oh my God. Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: I remember my uncle being like, “Good job! You look amazing. Keep doing what you’re doing, blah, blah, blah.” And I was like…Megan Gill: Yeah, that type of reinforcement is so damaging. Oh my god.Roxana Venzor Garcia: It is. It is because I remember I look at those pictures now, and I look amazing, but I never felt that way. I never felt good about myself. I was just – my self-esteem and is something that I’m still working with, has always been very low just for I feel everything, but I remember I was damn. Now I look, I’m like damn, if I look that now, I’ll be like…Megan Gill: I know. It’s always interesting to look back on ourselves in hindsight and be like wow. Or even just the thought that you had of how sad that she couldn’t even be satisfied. She couldn’t even – what was enough? Would it ever be enough? Oh, that’s heartbreaking.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. That’s honestly my – that was my question before I got the alopecia was when is it gonna be enough? Then when I started with this whole thing with the alopecia, I remember feeling so guilty and I was like, “I did this. I did this to myself because –.” And I get emotional because I’m like, “It’s been 30 years, and I have never been happy with my body, and now my body’s getting sick from it.” So I’m like, “I cannot keep doing this. I cannot. I need to stop,” but I didn’t know where to start.So then fast forward to 2023, again, I’m always trying to lose weight. I’m always trying to look better. I’m always trying blah, blah, blah, and I was just like hanging out with my dog in my apartment, and I remember I was just – I love touching my hair and my scalp and just massaging it. And I remember feeling a spot, a bald spot, and I was like, what is this? And it was 11:00 PM. At the time, I was fighting with my mom for a couple weeks, and I remember the first thought I had. I was like, “I need to call my mom.” So I called my mom, and I was like, “Hey, I have a bald spot.” And she’s like, “What do you mean?” And I was like, “I have a bald spot.” And she’s, “Oh, that’s normal. Don’t worry. My hair falls a lot too, blah, blah.” And I was like, I don’t think she understood, and I was crying. I was like, “I don’t know what this is.”So I remember it was 11, and I was just Googling CVS, 24 hours, Walmart…Megan Gill: When I read this part about you Googling what CVS was open, I was like this is the most effing relatable thing, and I would’ve done the exact same thing. Okay, sorry. Continue. I was just like, yep, yep. I don’t blame you..Roxana Venzor Garcia: I was like I need something now. Even though that wasn’t gonna change anything, it was I need something now. because I was spiraling. So I remember I was in my pajamas at CVS asking the lady, “What do you think is best for this?” And they give me a bunch of stuff. I have spent so much money on this, it’s crazy. I wish I could just go back and see how much I’ve spent on this. But I bought a bunch of stuff at CVS and then I was you know what? I’m gonna go to Walmart. I need natural things, natural shampoos, oils, everything. Then I came back home, and I just couldn’t sleep. And I started googling things, and that’s the first time I saw the name, the word alopecia areata. And I was like oh, my god, because I literally went through a rabbit hole of it, and I was like this is what I have. I’m sure I have this. And the more I read, I was like this is just gonna get worse. It’s usually not just one spot.I remember the next day I was already calling a dermatologist. I was like I need help. Obviously that’s when the emotional and the – I don’t even know how to say it. It was just probably the darkest time of my life. Emotionally, I was just a mess. I was just trying to isolate myself. I just literally isolated myself, actually. I was just so anxious all the time. My hair, I will put my hand like this, from top to bottom, and I will just like – clumps of hair. And then I will shower, and it will be even more and more. I literally used to shake and cry before every time I had to hop in the shower because it was traumatizing, because I was like I’m gonna lose a lot of hair in the shower, and after that I’m gonna have to brush my hair, and it’s gonna be even more.I remember I used to grab all the hair together and then just put it in a little ball just to see how much I lose every day. And it was a crazy amount. So seeing that, I was just so depressed, crying all the time, anxious all the time.Anyway, I went to the doctor and, yeah, they told me, “You have alopecia areata.” And they were like, “We’re gonna do injections,” directly to my scalp. Very painful, by the way. They did steroids. And I was like okay. And I remember asking – I was crying. On the first day there, I was already crying. I was like, “Is it this gonna get better? Is it just this one?” And they were like, “We cannot tell you. We’ll see.”Megan Gill: Which is not what you wanna hear.Roxana Venzor Garcia: No, obviously not! So I remember thinking, I was like okay, this is just a wake up call. This is a wake up call to just be grateful for what I have, for the body that I have right now, for the hair that I have right now. And also, I remember you were just talking at the beginning how me being a nurse and all that in oncology, especially. I remember telling my patients before all this happened to me – I have some women patients, female patients, that they don’t wanna go through chemotherapy or they are very anxious about it because they don’t wanna lose their hair. And I remember looking at them, I was like, “It’s just hair! Just do it! You’re gonna save your life!” But they’re like, “Yeah, but I don’t wanna be bald!” And I remember I didn’t understood, and when this happened to me, I was humbled and I was like I will never say anything like that to any of my patients or any other person because I know now, it’s like losing a part of yourself.Megan Gill: Yeah, like a part of our core identities as women, a lot of times.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And you know what? I feel women, we rely a lot on our hair because we that’s one of the only things of our body that we can change on a whim, you know?Megan Gill: Mm, that’s a good point. I like that. You’re so right.Roxana Venzor Garcia: It’s like you wanna change it, you can change it. You want another color, you can do another color, you can cut it, you can do this, and it’s still a part of your body, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And we’re always trying to change our bodies, and I feel women with our hair, it was a crazy awakening for me.Megan Gill: Your hair is one of the things you actually have control over, because a lot of times we can’t control, no matter how “healthy” we eat, no matter how much we’re working out or moving our body, my body’s still gonna look this. No matter what I do, I’m still gonna have a belly pooch because that’s just my freaking genetics. Like it’s never going away.Roxana Venzor Garcia: You cannot do it just one appointment, yeah, and hair you can.Megan Gill: Oh my god, going through this experience, this traumatic experience, of losing this piece of yourself after already struggling with a body image crisis is so tough, and I can imagine so extremely difficult. Sorry, I feel I put words in your mouth, but I’m just like… wow.Roxana Venzor Garcia: No, I literally felt I lost myself. I was just on autopilot every day. And honestly alopecia areata – and I say the whole name because that was in my head all day, every day. It was, “Alopecia areata, you have alopecia areata.” And I was like how to get rid of it? I was always looking for things online. I was always looking up other women. When I will go out and to the store or whatever, I will look to see maybe someone else has it. I just felt so lonely at the same time because I felt like nobody else had it. And when I went to my doctor, she told me, “No, I have a lot of patients like you, but it’s a very hard thing that women go through that nobody wants to share it.” And I was like I agree.Megan Gill: Wow.Roxana Venzor Garcia: So, yeah. That started happening and my day to day was that I was just crying and not wanting to get in the shower because I didn’t wanna lose hair. It was just my depression was just so bad and the relationship with my body, now, I felt guilty, and I was like I did this to myself. But then at the same time, I just didn’t even care about my body anymore because I was just thinking about my hair. Not in a good way. Not that I wasn’t thinking about my body in a good way. I was just like I don’t have the capacity to be like and on top of that, I wanna lose weight.Megan Gill: It forced you to shift focus. Not that it was a good, a positive thing that you were now focusing on, but it almost forced you to take the pressure off of your body in a way.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. So I started doing everything medically possible, and nothing was really working. I started, I remember the day that I saw a second spot on the other side of my head. I was just like I cannot do this. So I remember my parents will ask me, “How are you doing? Is everything okay with your hair?” And I was yeah, it’s fine. Because I felt if I will talk about it, they wouldn’t understand. And I just felt lonely.And one day it just got really bad, to me. And I remember explaining to people, “It’s not about seeing the bald spots, it’s about me seeing the hair falling. It’s just so traumatizing. It’s I’m losing more and I’m losing me.So I remember one night I was like I’m just gonna shave my head because I cannot do this. I was like I’m just gonna shave my head. And I had – how do you call, the ones – you know?Megan Gill: Like a buzzer?Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, I had one for my dog.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, and I was like I’m just gonna get that. But thankfully I was just so depressed that I couldn’t get out of the bed. The only time that I got out of the bed was to go to work, come back home, take my dog out, and I will literally sleep on the floor of my apartment because I just didn’t have the will to just go to the bed. I was just literally waking up at random places in my apartment every day. So I was just going to work, taking my dog out, because she will wake me up. She will literally lick me to take her out. So that was literally my life. So I’m thankful that I wasn’t able to shave my head because I literally was just like – I didn’t have the energy.One day I got to my parents’ house and they were like, “How are you doing?” And I just broke down with my dad and I was like, “I’m not doing good. My hair is not looking better.” And I literally just opened my hair to him, and my dad was shocked. And I could see that he wanted to start crying, just for seeing how bad I was feeling. And he talked to my mom, because again, my mom was like, “Oh, you’re fine. Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.” And I literally told my mom, “I’m not fine. Please, I just need your support. I’m not okay,” and I show her, and she was shocked. And then she was like, “Please don’t show me again, because it hurts me.” And I was like, “I get it. But at the same time I’m hurts me too,” you know?Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: And she started praying, and I was like this is bad. My mom is praying for my hair? And I remember that, and I feel like it’s so sweet. But then at the same time I was like that’s so traumatizing too.Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: She was praying for my hair and she was like, “Please,” whatever. Then my mom was like, “I feel someone is being very envious or jealous of you, and that’s what’s happening.” The Hispanic, the Mexican in her. And she’s like, “You need to go and see this guy, and he will help you, and blah, blah, blah.” And I was like I don’t wanna do that. I don’t believe in that, and I don’t wanna do that. Then my mom kept calling me and telling me to do it, and I was like you know what? I’m so desperate that I’m just gonna go see this witch.So I literally called this guy, didn’t even see him in person, FaceTimed this guy, and he was just – it was even worse. He just told me so many things, and I was like okay, this is way worse. I remember just calling my parents and was like, “I know it’s hard. I know you guys don’t get it. At this point, I just need your guys’ support. I just need support. I don’t need any more, ‘Hey, try this oil. Hey, try this thing.’ I just don’t need that.” I was like, “I just need support.” I was just so lucky that I had my best friend – you know, her – Kiara, and she was very understanding. She was very helpful. I’m so grateful for her. At that time she was like, “No, I understand. You need support,” and that was it, I just had support. And then I was doing great. I did everything medically possible for it. It wasn’t helping very much, but it was getting – it was halting the process. That happened September.In December, I went on a trip to the UK and I was like you know what? I’m just gonna leave on a trip. I left my dog with my cousin while I was there – two days before my – yeah, you know already – they called me and they told me that my dog is dying, so I had to come back. I, thankfully, was able to come back and say goodbye to my dog and put her down because I had to.Megan Gill: I’m so sorry.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, thank you. And after that, everything got – if it was already bad, it got worse because the only thing that was keeping me literally functional was my dog, and I didn’t have that anymore. So I didn’t wanna be in my apartment anymore, because that was just a reminder of the life that I had with my dog. And my parents were very supportive. Literally, the night that my dog passed away, they had my bag. I didn’t know. They went to my apartment, took everything out, and they were like, “You’re moving back home with us. Don’t worry about it. You just need time right now to heal and focus on you.” And I was like, “Okay.” I was grieving my dog and I was grieving my hair at the same time.It was the hardest time. If I thought that alopecia was bad already, just grieving my dog of 16 years and my hair, my life, everything. It was just hard. And that’s when I started therapy. I moved back with my parents, I started therapy, and again, the body image issues came to top. My therapist was like, “You struggle with body image since you’re very little,” and she was like, “I feel that this is your body telling you that you need to love your body. You need to be nicer to yourself because you are getting sick from this.” Because I literally did everything possible. We did every single test to try and find a reason for my alopecia, and there was none. There are some people that there’s no reason at all. They say stress is a very big part of alopecia areata, but don’t have an actual thing that, “Okay, you have alopecia areata because of this.”Megan Gill: Yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: But they told me I probably had lupus, I probably have an immune disease, I probably have all this, and everything came back negative. And I was like what is it? What is it? And my mom, I remember she told me, “I feel like it’s you. You’re just so anxious and depressed, and you’re just not doing well, and your body’s literally telling you you’re not.”So after my dog passed away, in January I started therapy. It wasn’t helping very much, to be honest. I was still just crying every day, feeling – now on top of everything, I was feeling a failure because I was back home with my parents and it was a lot.One day, my mom – mind you, I don’t wanna generalize and say all Mexicans, but I can assure you that 90% of Mexican parents don’t believe in depression, they don’t believe in mental health issues, and they don’t believe in therapy or psychiatrists.Megan Gill: I feel that’s also just the boomer generation in general, because my parents are the same.Roxana Venzor Garcia: They’re like, “If I did it without therapy, you can do it.”Megan Gill: Right. “Surely you can.” Like, no, guys. There’s a different way, okay?Roxana Venzor Garcia: Exactly. So January I was already living with my parents for a month, and literally one day my mom sat me down and she started bawling her eyes out. She was crying, and she’s like, “I want you to be better. I want you to feel good.” She was like, “I hate to see you like this.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” Because I thought I was hiding it because I will just cry in my room and just be on autopilot. She was like, “You’re not doing good, and your hair is never gonna grow if you are like this.” She was like, “Please go to a psychiatrist.” And I was like, “Psychiatrist? What?” I was like, “You, telling me about a psychiatrist?” And she was like, “Please, you probably need medications. You’re depressed, you are anxious, you need something.” And I remember just thinking and thinking. I was like if my mom, my Mexican mom that didn’t believe in this told me to do it, how bad am I doing? How bad am I doing that they can tell when I thought I was so good at hiding it.So I started. I went to the psychiatrist, and honestly, I was also very like – I believe in therapy, I believe in psychiatrists. But I was like, “I’m never gonna be on pills. I’m not gonna do it.” So that was judgmental on my part because I was like I think I’m gonna be good with therapy. That’s what I thought all my life. For me it was like once you need meds, no, that’s bad. I talked to my psychiatrist and she diagnosed me with PTSD from the alopecia, PTSD, anxiety, and depression. And she was like, “Your depression – I feel the way that you were raised and the way that you are, your depression is not like the common depression that you’re in bed and you cannot go to work,” and blah, blah, blah. She’s like you have a functional depression, but still there.Megan Gill: It’s the sneaky kind. It’s just hiding in the shadows, but it’s actually something that is deeply affecting your body, yeah.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, exactly. And she was like, “Let’s start the medications,” and I was like, “Okay.”Megan Gill: Oh, I’m glad that, as resistant as you were to them, I’m so glad that you trusted her.Roxana Venzor Garcia: I was just doing whatever they told me because I was like I got this far by doing the things that I thought they were okay and by the beliefs that I have, I am just gonna leave it to other people at this point, I honestly was just like I’m just gonna – whatever they tell me to do, I’m gonna do.At the same time I went to my dermatologist and, again, I was a mess. Every time I was with her I was crying shaking, because they will look through my whole hair and they will find spots and that will be the end of me. I will just start crying. I’d be like, “You find another one?” She’s like, “Yeah,” and they will hold my hand, they will hug me because I will be a mess.Megan Gill: Because it’s every time you go, I imagine, you’re like, “Is it getting better? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse?” And how do you even mentally prepare yourself for hearing either?Roxana Venzor Garcia: They were like, “Hey, there’s another one, but it’s okay. It’s very tiny.” And I was like I already know it’s gonna get bigger, I already know. And I remember I went that time, it was the beginning of January, and she told me, “I don’t wanna see you here until you get help.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And she’s like, “We’re not doing this anymore. I need you to get help because mentally you are not okay.” I was like, “I just went to the psychiatrist.” And she’s like, “Perfect. Just do that. And then once you’re ready, I’ll be happy to see you again, but I don’t wanna see you right now. Let’s take a couple months off the treatment. Stop doing everything you’re doing, Stop the oils, stop everything, and just focus on that. Focus on healing. You are not doing well.”So that’s when everybody was like you’re not doing well. And I was yeah, I know. I started my treatment, and it changed my life. I am a huge supporter of if you need meds, do you. Do whatever you need to do for your mental health, for your sanity, for whatever you need to do to feel good, do it. Of course, if it’s legal.Megan Gill: No. Yeah, absolutely. And I’m just like, dude, yes. This is such a big piece of the body image conversation. Whatever you need to feel good in your body – our brains are in our body. There’s so much more than just our physical body, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, our mental health is such a big piece of the conversation. So I am so glad that you are touching on this. Yes, sorry to interrupt, but I’m just like yes.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. No, because it’s true. As soon as I started taking care of my mental health, my negative thoughts that I always had, I remember waking up and, “Oh, I’m so fat. Oh, I hate my thighs. Ugh, I hate this. Ugh!” I will just be all the time talking so badly to myself because that’s what you do when you grow up hating your body, that’s the main goal, changing it.Megan Gill: Right. “What am I working on now? What do I see that I hate now?” Yeah. Oh my god, yes.Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, literally. I remember, if you ask me, and I feel like a lot of women if you ask them, “What’s your favorite part of your body?” they will say their hair because it’s your body., but at the same time, as I said, it’s something you can change and that you can mold and do whatever how you want it. So I didn’t have that anymore. I was having to wear headbands. I was having to wear – I wore a wig for a while because it got to the point that it was really bad I was going into this trip, a bachelorette party, and it was only girls. And I remember just feeling – I was like here I am. I’m gonna have to go and put the wig on while they are just doing their hair and they look so pretty. And I was like okay.So that was a hard thing to do, but at the same time, I just love womanhood, and that trip was one of the best trips ever. We went to the beach. I was so scared of going to the beach because I was gonna have to wet my hair and all that. They were all so supportive. They were like, “Oh, my god, you look so good! Like your hair…” Because my hair looked exactly the same. It didn’t look like a wig. Or maybe that’s what they said because I don’t know. But they were like, “Oh, my gosh, I wish I had one too! You’re ready so quick!” And I was like, “Yeah! Right?”Megan Gill: Girlhood is the fucking best. Ugh!Roxana Venzor Garcia: It healed me. It was so healing. I thought I was gonna feel shit next to them. because all of them had their hair. All of them were pretty and beautiful with their hair whatever they wanted. And I had to always had it either in a bun and put in – I mastered the bun, the whatever hair style you wanted to do with alopecia, I know how to do it and I know how to cover it. I had many different things that I bought to dye my hair, dye the bald spots, whatever.But yeah, girlhood, that trip, it was just amazing. And that was the start of my healing process. I remember I felt beautiful and I was just so confident in my body on that trip because I was like this is what I have right now. I was literally now relying on everything except my hair to feel beautiful. So I was like I need to make the best of it. I need to feel the best. And I felt beautiful. I felt hot on that trip!Megan Gill: Yes! I love it!Roxana Venzor Garcia: Literally, I was just – I wasn’t relying on my hair anymore.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wow.Roxana Venzor Garcia: That was just so good and for the start of my healing. So yeah, I did that, came back, I started traveling a lot. That’s when I started relying a lot on my family, on my friends. And honestly, that was 2024. I thought that it was gonna be the hardest and the worst year of my life, and it was the best year of my life. My friends threw me a surprise birthday party. They knew that I was going through a lot, and they were there for me. My family was there for me. My friends were there for me, and they were just so supportive.I finally – with the medications and with therapy, I was feeling so good about myself. And also I started being grateful just for having an able body, because I used to take it for granted and I remember thinking you work in oncology, you see patients on their deathbeds, people your age. I see girls my age, I see people that are younger than me tied to a bed, not able to walk, not able to eat on their own, not able to even go to the bathroom on their own, and here I am complaining that I don’t like my thighs, and I’m like these thighs have me moving! These thighs have me taking care of people that cannot take care of themselves.Megan Gill: That’s really powerful.Roxana Venzor Garcia: I started seeing things differently.“ I have some women patients, female patients, that they don’t wanna go through chemotherapy or they are very anxious about it because they don’t wanna lose their hair. And I remember looking at them, I was like, “It’s just hair! Just do it! You’re gonna save your life!” But they’re like, “Yeah, but I don’t wanna be bald!” And I remember I didn’t understood, and when this happened to me, I was humbled and I was like I will never say anything like that to any of my patients or any other person because I know now, it’s like losing a part of yourself. And you know what? I feel women, we rely a lot on our hair because we that’s one of the only things of our body that we can change on a whim, you know? It’s like you wanna change it, you can change it. You want another color, you can do another color, you can cut it, you can do this, and it’s still a part of your body, you know?”- Roxana Venzor GarciaRoxana is a 31-year-old oncology nurse from the north of Mexico, living in Redondo Beach after moving here in 2017. She loves making people laugh, she’s obsessed with dogs, and she’s constantly picking up new hobbies — currently running, plant parenting, and learning how not to kill her indoor plants. She loves traveling and camping, and while she has alopecia areata, it’s just one of the many things that makes her her.Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my mama, Dona Gill, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! I somehow swindled her into sitting down with me when I was home over Thanksgiving to have a conversation. She was hesitant to say yes, but I’m so thankful she did because I walked away from our conversation a more empowered woman.In our conversation, we discuss…* When little kids start to recognize their bodies are different* SlimFast, Zumba, and all of the diets/workouts we tried as I was growing up* The dynamic between my mom and her mom as she was growing up* Older generations of women being raised for survival vs. 90s kids being raised to harp on every physical flaw* Body comparison and desire to hide your body* Finding your own personal priorities when it comes to our health and your movement practice* How our relationship with seeing yourself in the mirror vs. seeing yourself in photos can be so different* Complimenting others and receiving compliments yourself (Mama Gill is here for the compliments!)* The cultural acceptance of a belly being viewed as beautiful when pregnant and unattractive when not* The experience of looking in the mirror and seeing your motherThis conversation could have gone so many ways, and it was lovely to follow where it led. (Though I know I want to have her back for another conversation in 2026!) I’m so grateful for my mom - she raised me the best she could. She put me in dance and gave me the gift of mobility and flexibility without even recognizing that’s what she was doing. She moved with me in Zumba classes and at little boutique gyms for women because it was a fun way for us to connect. My body image issues didn’t fully stem from her as much as they stemmed from social and cultural conditioning, and for that I am grateful. But being a woman in today’s society comes with its inherent body image norms and standards that we naturally gravitate towards adhering to. It was intriguing to explore some of these topics with my mom and hear her thoughts.We shared a few really lovely moments in our conversations of things that I did not know about my own mama, and it was lovely to listen to her open up about her relationship to her body. I hope you enjoy our chat and that it might inspire you to have similar conversations with your own mom about these topics ♥️“I always thought I was fat. Even though I was size 14, I always thought I was fat. I don’t know why. I just always thought that and I really wasn’t ever, but it never brought me down. It was just a comparing thing, but it never made me feel bad, that I know of. But I always thought I was fat. Like I couldn’t wear a two-piece until our honeymoon. And then I could. Because I just felt I couldn’t. I felt I was fat and I really wasn’t. And in today’s world it’s not at all, not at all how I was feeling at the time. But it didn’t bring me down, and I didn’t think anything of it, really. Just like, ‘No, I can’t wear that. I’ll wear this instead.’”- DONA GILLMegan Gill: Hi, mom!Dona Gill: Hi, daughter.Megan Gill: Mama Gill is here today having a conversation with me! I’m home for Thanksgiving.Dona Gill: Yay!Megan Gill: And I somehow conned her into sitting down to talk with me.Dona Gill: So much fun!Megan Gill: So, I’m glad you’re here, mom.Dona Gill: Me too.Megan Gill: And thank you for being open to talking with me. Do you wanna start by just introducing yourself and your work that you do in the world?Dona Gill: My name is Dona Gill. I’m Megan’s mommy. I am a kindergarten teacher, and I’ve been a teacher for many years.Megan Gill: Yes. Okay. So you’re teaching young people – young, young, young, young people.Dona Gill: Five-, and six-year-olds right now.Megan Gill: And before you had me, you were teaching third grade.Dona Gill: Correct.Megan Gill: And I know that you substituted me when I was in high school…Dona Gill: Middle school. I never did high school. Elementary and middle school.Megan Gill: So you’ve taught an array of different-aged children over the years.Dona Gill: Yessiree.Megan Gill: How interesting. Is there anything, specifically in kindergarten? Like, are little kids aware of their bodies and what they look like in space?Dona Gill: Not really. Once in a great while you might hear someone say, “You’re fat,” just to be mean. Once, I’ve maybe heard it once or twice, maybe. They don’t recognize skin color until we say something, till we’re teaching about it. Not really, I try to teach positivity in the classroom. So yeah, I don’t hear a lot of it.Megan Gill: That’s really interesting. And also just sad that young kids are still thinking calling somebody fat is an insult, you know?Dona Gill: Yessiree.Megan Gill: Yeah, and how that’s still very much baked into our culture.Dona Gill: Yes, it is.Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Okay. So obviously I grew up in the nineties and early two thousands, in a time where thin was definitely in and the term people like to say “heroin chic” was a thing where everybody was very skinny and everybody in the media was preaching thinness, and diet culture was rampant. And god, I know we were on SlimFast and we were in random workout classes when I was in like middle school working out together, which was actually kind of fun and empowering to be like working out together when I was young. I think that’s pretty cool that we did that, like mother daughter.Dona Gill: I think we just did it for fun to be together.Megan Gill: Yeah, it was fun.Dona Gill: And to let’s just do it.Megan Gill: But also it’s interesting because there still was totally like this cultural overarching like, “Oh, but let’s lose weight!” I remember it being like that, and I think it’s so interesting because for us it was more “fun,” like it was more enjoyable. I remember having a good time with it, but it’s also just like, damn, man. Still, there’s like the under-arcing layer there, like the invisible layer almost of like, “Okay, but we’re gonna do this because we’re gonna lose weight.”Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. “And it’s gonna work.”Megan Gill: And it’s gonna work, instead of like, “Oh, let’s go move our bodies because it’s joyful and because it’s fun and because, oh, it’s good for you and because you should be moving your bodies.” It’s interesting because I don’t know that I learned – granted I did grow up doing a bunch of different sports and dancing, and I’m very grateful to you for putting me in dance. So grateful. So beyond grateful, because my body’s able to move in these ways now, and it’s able to stretch in these ways that I think is just inherent. I’m realizing more and more as I’m like in different yoga classes and just experiencing different types of movement and moving my body in different ways, I’m realizing, oh, not everybody gets to move like this and has this much ease in their body. And I’m just so grateful to you. You probably didn’t even realize at the time.Dona Gill: I just wanted to find something that you enjoyed doing.Megan Gill: Yeah.Dona Gill: To pursue. And I’m glad it was dance because I loved watching you.Megan Gill: Yeah, me too. Me too. Sorry, I took that on a tangent. But it’s interesting because – I’m trying to tie it back to what we were saying before…Dona Gill: Doing it for fun or now you can move.Megan Gill: Right, I don’t know that I was taught movement is good for you and I don’t think that’s at any fault to you. I don’t know that you would’ve known to even teach that at that time that our culture was in. I think we’ve come so far in the past 30 years of understanding how important movement is and how important activity is and how important eating your daily greens or whatever, just these different things to, to keep our body going, to keep the longevity of our body up and just – yeah, it’s so sad how much diet culture was baked into all of the things that we were doing, and I guess that’s my perspective on it.So I’m more so curious to take it back further to when you were like a kid, teenager coming into your body as a young woman. And I’m really curious to know what the dynamic between you and your mom was, or you also have an older sister. So I’m curious to know if there was anything there in terms of what you learned about your body as a young woman, and then I don’t know if culture has impact into that as well, social conditioning, cultural conditioning. I’m just curious kind of what your experience was with all of that.Dona Gill: Not a lot. There really wasn’t. It wasn’t body image because I was size 14 all the time. So I never thought anything of it, unless maybe I would go with my sister who’s shorter and maybe slightly chubbier, but not really. And then she would always say, “Everything always looks so good on you. Everything looks good on you whenever you would try something on.” And my mom would always say, “Yeah, that looks good. Yeah, that looks good.” So I never thought anything of it. I don’t think it was really a big deal in my eyes growing up.Megan Gill: Okay. So your mom didn’t have a lot to say about your body?Dona Gill: No.Megan Gill: That’s pretty fucking cool, honestly.Dona Gill: No, never thought about it. Never. No. Yeah. Not at all.Megan Gill: Okay. This is also interesting though, because your mom is first generation in the US?Dona Gill: Correct.Megan Gill: Okay. So I wonder just like how much that impact also had on like her upbringing.Dona Gill: Right, because I don’t think their upbringing was body image. Their upbringing was survive. Survive. What do we eat? Can you get anything to wear? Just survive. Not how you look.Megan Gill: Yeah.Dona Gill: And then they brought that to us, really. Yeah, really, I had no clue on body image.Megan Gill: Can you pinpoint a time, even like beyond young adulthood, a time in your earlier life, even in your twenties where you started to get messaging that you maybe should be…Dona Gill: I always thought I was fat. Even though I was size 14, I always thought I was fat. I don’t know why. I just always thought that and I really wasn’t ever, but it never brought me down. It was just a comparing thing, but it never made me feel bad, that I know of. But I always thought I was fat. Like I couldn’t wear a two-piece until our honeymoon. And then I could.Megan Gill: Why not?Dona Gill: Because I just felt I couldn’t. I felt I was fat and I really wasn’t. And in today’s world it’s not at all, not at all how I was feeling at the time. But it didn’t bring me down, and I didn’t think anything of it, really. Just like, “No, I can’t wear that. I’ll wear this instead.”Megan Gill: Just so sad that you thought you couldn’t wear it, that you thought you couldn’t exist in the world in a fucking two-piece bikini, you know? God forbid!Dona Gill: I mean, I could have. I just felt I couldn’t, I did as a little kid. Well, no, take that back because my mom wouldn’t let us wear a two-piece when we were little. It was just the way she was at the time. Then when I could, I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t know if it looks good.” But then again, I was also from the seventies where everything was very, very skimpy. Very skimpy. And maybe I didn’t feel the best about me not being in clothes. Maybe.Megan Gill: Wait, you didn’t feel the best about – you wanted to cover up.Dona Gill: Right, right.Megan Gill: That was your comfort zone.Dona Gill: So not so much body image, but more just cover up.Megan Gill: Like feeling like you need to hide your body?Dona Gill: Yeah. I guess, maybe, but not really hide – in between.Megan Gill: Okay. Yeah, she was giving modest.Dona Gill: There you go. Yeah. I guess modest. I don’t know.Megan Gill: Okay. How does it feel now to be in your sixties – we celebrated your 65th birthday in Florida last year, and you were in a two piece swimsuit!Dona Gill: Oh, I did.Megan Gill: Okay! How does that feel?Dona Gill: The words you always use. It’s empowering, but still embarrassing. So both.Megan Gill: Why embarrassing?Dona Gill: Because I don’t like the way I look in it. I mean, certain ones, yeah, okay. But I know because I’m unhealthy, so that’s why.Megan Gill: Because you’re unhealthy. Why do you say that?Dona Gill: Because extra poundage is not healthy.Megan Gill: Not necessarily on your body always.Dona Gill: It would help with my arthritis if I didn’t have it.Megan Gill: Sometimes your body is just gonna exist at an even-keel weight.Dona Gill: And it does. And that is interesting because I was always a certain weight growing up. I was like 128 always, always until I had you guys. And then I went up to like 142, and I stayed at that forever and ever and ever and ever. And then I hit the old age, and now, whew. It’s gone up now.Megan Gill: Okay. Well it’s very fascinating. I just wanna point this out because I also distinctly remembered my weight in terms of numerology but I’m just like blown away, also, by the fact that you said you at that time were a size 14 for as long as you can remember. But that you weighed 128 pounds. And I’m just am so fascinated by the correlation of those two numbers and what we in our brains today, someone who’s my age who’s thinking like, okay. Well, I weigh a lot more than that. And I am not a size – I’m smaller than a size 14. I’m like a size 8/10 right now.Dona Gill: Oh yeah. Interesting.Megan Gill: And it’s just so fascinating how I think we just like – I don’t know, I’m just like, damn, that’s wild. We cling to these numbers sometimes or these numbers can haunt us sometimes or we think like, you know, obviously as women we know that if you try on a size 30 (or whatever your go-to size is) at 10 different stores, the pants are all gonna fit differently. And I just think also it’s, I don’t know. I don’t know. I just think it’s interesting.Dona Gill: I thought it was fascinating that I could stay that weight no matter what. I could eat a lot of candy; I could not eat candy. I could eat healthy; I could not eat healthy. I could eat anything I wanted. I was always the same weight at each of the three periods of time. Even today, either way I go I’m around the same weight.Megan Gill: And that’s what I mean when I say sometimes our bodies are just supposed to exist around this baseline level. That’s where I feel like I’ve finally reached a place of like, my body is just going to be this. It’s never going to – I’m going to have to do things I don’t wanna have to do to it in order to be smaller, and it’s just not worth it to me. I just don’t want to do that. And I’ve come to this place of like radical acceptance of, “Okay. All right. I refuse to live like that. So this is just the way that my body is.” And it also does feel – I don’t know if it feels for you – for me it feels freeing to be able to be like, “Okay, it, it’s fine.” I can come here for Thanksgiving and not be in my normal movement routine and, you know, maybe not be eating in the same patterns that I would back at home and not feel like I have to beat myself up for that or not feel like so scared that I’m gonna gain weight, or even if I do fluctuate a few pounds,my body’s still gonna generally look like this, because that’s just like where it wants to exist at.Dona Gill: Right. You think you eat a lot, but it’s a lot for your body at the time. So that’s I think why you stay in your weight. That’s why I think no matter how much you eat or how much less you eat, you’re gonna end up at the same just because that’s who you are and that’s just your pattern. At least that’s what I’ve found over the years.Megan Gill: Yeah, that’s really interesting.Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. I would love to go back to that weight before and stick around that. But it’s not happening. That’s all right.Megan Gill: Okay. Well, you’re also working a full-time job teaching kindergartners. You need to give yourself a little bit of grace too. It’s really hard. It’s hard to be dedicated to, again, like how far are you willing to go? How far do you have the capacity to go to change your body, and what is important to you at this time? If right now what’s important to you is getting through this next – she’s about to retire, everyone getting through this next –Dona Gill: Yay!Megan Gill: – six months to just get to the end of the year so that you can maybe start to focus on yourself a little bit more next year? Then that’s what you gotta do to get through, you know?Dona Gill: I think that’s a good motto. I think that’s good. Just keep pushing on.Megan Gill: Yeah, or finding what’s important for you because that’s gonna be different for everyone, you know? And finding the why behind sure, we wanna, you know, get back to where we were before, but why?Dona Gill: I wanna be healthy, and I feel like I wanna move more and I want clothes to look better on me, my perception of looking better.I think I look good in the mirror, but then when I see a picture of me, I’m like, “Oh, whoa. No, that didn’t look very good.”Megan Gill: Wait, okay. Tell me why. I’ve had this conversation recently with multiple people.Dona Gill: Oh, really?Megan Gill: Yes! And it’s so fascinating because it’s like these two reflective things for us, right? The mirror and photos, video, whatever it is for you. And how we can have a strong relationship with our body and what we see in the mirror in the present moment, and then in hindsight, retrospect, you see this image captured of you, and your relationship to that is off. And it also makes a lot of sense. And I think that it’s like, I don’t know, if I were to sit here and be like, “Which is more important, your relationship with the mirror or your relationship with photos?” Like, I don’t know. I think it’s, it’s so nuanced and, you know, obviously different for each person and –Dona Gill: I don’t think you can have one or the other. Because you see yourself in both all the time, especially now with the use of phones and photos and internet, social media.Megan Gill: Right I just mean like, if you were to have a strong relationship with one or the other, is what I mean. I would almost want people to have a strong relationship with what they say reflected in the mirror.Dona Gill: That’s probably what I have, because I don’t like to look at photos. I will ignore them.Megan Gill: Well, exactly. It gets convoluted with photos and I think it’s hard too because it’s like this other thing captured, and depending on literally how you’re standing, what you’re wearing, right? All these different – the lighting, all these different factors come into play in photos that it’s like we, I think, have to sort of look at them with a grain of salt anyways. I tell myself this all the time as well. What really matters is what’s going on in your body in the present moment in the mirror. And I know that – that’s not to discount the fact that certain people do have a tough relationship with what they see in the mirror. Granted, hello, not every single day do I love what I see in the mirror either, you know?Dona Gill: Oh, I agree.Megan Gill: But it’s so interesting that you bring that up.Dona Gill: Interesting. Yeah.Megan Gill: Okay. So you find yourself avoiding looking at them.Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. Even avoiding mirrors a lot.Megan Gill: Oh, and avoiding mirrors, even though you don’t mind what you see in the mirror?Dona Gill: Well, because in the morning I like looking at what do I look like for the day? Okay, this is how I’m presenting myself for the day. I could change something if I need to, if I’m looking at the mirror, but later on, if I’m passing a mirror, I can’t change my outfit. I can’t change my hair. I’ve gotta just keep on going with what I see. And you’re like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t have picked that out today, so that’s why.Megan Gill: Oh, I experience that as well. It’s interesting. It’s like a fear of seeing something you don’t like in yourself, which is valid. It’s so valid. But I think also the difficulty in that, or the difficult thing to put yourself through is the acceptance of, okay, well, can’t change it. This is what I chose. We’re rolling with it, and we’re gonna try to just breathe and be like, it’s okay.Like for me, my makeup, I’ve been doing different makeup lately, and like when I put it on, I’m like, ooh, I love it. And I love the way I look. I go live the day. At the end of the day I look in the mirror and I’m like, oh my god, I was walking around like this? It’s kind of like smudged and I don’t know, it’s just whatever! I was living my life. And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to like, be perfect, look perfect all the time. It’s like, for what?Dona Gill: I think I really like when someone says, “Oh, you look good in that today. Oh, you look good today, or you look happy today, or you look something” I’m like, okay, I’m doing pretty good today. I think I need that every day.Megan Gill: I love that! It’s important because also it’s like you look happy. You look good. Like you don’t look ill, you don’t look unwell. I think that those are two really important compliments to pay someone. You know?Dona Gill: I try to do that to others too. Yes. “I really like what you’re wearing today,” or “That color looks really good on you.”Megan Gill: Or even I’ve been having an interesting battle of like, okay, I am trying to just not pay people so many appearance based compliments. But also it’s like, well, we can’t discount the fact that we are visual creatures and…Dona Gill: And they took the time to pick out that outfit.Megan Gill: Exactly. It’s art!Dona Gill: So like, that looks really good on you today. That color is really good. Someone the other day said to me, “That color is really good on you, Mrs. Gill.” It’s an adult, but doesn’t matter. “That looks really good on you.” So then I’m like, okay, what color is that? What color looks good on me? So then I try to do more of that color on me.Megan Gill: It’s so true. It’s a creative process to put together.Dona Gill: So I appreciate those compliments.Megan Gill: Yeah, me too. Do not get me wrong. Some girl yesterday was like, “Ah, I love your shoes!” I’m like, “Thanks, lemme tell you, I got them on sale at Marshalls, I love them too, so thank you!” I don’t know that there is anything wrong with it. But I think it’s also just having the awareness of how it made you feel when someone said, “You look happy! You look good!”Dona Gill: “Aww, thank you!”Megan Gill: Like, “Oh my god, thanks!” Because that also just speaks so much more than just your appearance. It speaks to like your character and your soul and how you’re, you know, affecting other people.Dona Gill: And you can kind of tell if the person really means it or if they’re just saying it to say it. You kinda know the people – or yesterday that girl about your shoes seemed just really interested because she was really looking at ‘em, and it’s not like you were just walking by and she just said it because.Megan Gill: Okay, but here’s the thing, I don’t know – granted, I don’t know every person in the world, but I don’t know that people pay a compliment – I don’t know that a lot of people pay a compliment unless they mean it. At least that’s my take, because I’m not gonna pay a compliment unless…Dona Gill: Sometimes at a job you might pay a compliment just because you need to say it, but then you find something good to try and make a compliment. Sometimes in your family you might do that just to keep the peace or knowing that that person needs to feel good.Megan Gill: Oh, okay. That’s fair!Dona Gill: But then it’s usually you find something that’s really good to make that compliment about. But there are people that just make a random compliment.Megan Gill: I guess, maybe, but I don’t know. That’s my take. My optimistic outlook.Dona Gill: That’s a good take. Good job.Megan Gill: Thanks. Thanks, mom.Dona Gill: I think one of the best times that I felt really good about myself was when I was pregnant because our heredity is the tummy, that’s just my family all has it going way back as far as I know.Megan Gill: The belly. Yep.Dona Gill: The belly. So when I was pregnant, people would say, “You look good!” And I’m like, “Yeah, I do. Because now I can have a belly and it’s okay to have a belly when I’m pregnant..”Megan Gill: Oh my god.Dona Gill: So I used to think I looked really good pregnant.Megan Gill: Wow.Dona Gill: So maybe I should have had more kids.Megan Gill: Wait. That is honestly a really important thing that you just pointed out. And something that I, obviously, I’ve never been pregnant myself yet, but something that I think about all the time in myself and how it’s just so wildly accepted and beautiful and seen as this magnificent thing when you’re pregnant and your belly is big, but then when a woman is just not pregnant and has a belly, it’s seen as gross or unhealthy or unattractive, and it’s like – wow, I’m just like sitting with that. I don’t even have anything to say about that. I’m just like, that dichotomy is crazy to me and just how much pressure society puts on women and how much pressure women put on women and media puts on women.Like, okay, I’ve been watching a show called, Nobody Wants This on Netflix. Have you seen it yet?Dona Gill: No. No, not yet.Megan Gill: The women in it – I love the show, and they’re all so talented and lovely, but they’re all just very straight-sized bodies with not a lot of curve action going on. And the men in the show – there’s a scene where you see one of the leading men with his shirt off and he has a belly, and I’m like, of course it’s normalized for a man on this television show on Netflix to be seen with a shirt off with a belly, but none of the women probably even have that belly. And I say probably because we just don’t know, but just like how the double standard is so crazy and yeah, we are getting somewhere. We’re getting somewhere. We’re starting to talk about this stuff. The media is starting to shift, but it’s also still so prevalent. It’s like, damn, well, I just wanna see a woman that looks like me, or even someone bigger, or someone, a mom – I mean, granted, a lot of times mothers are perceived to have bigger bodies, which is another piece to the conversation. But just seeing people with not perfectly-thin bodies in these leading roles on TV and like showing the elements of them, like the belly that I have, I wanna see somebody in a bathing suit in a Netflix series with a belly like mine!Dona Gill: That would be nice. That would be nice.Megan Gill: Yeah, so I’m hopeful that we’ll get there, but it’s just like, god, wow. I took that and ran with it. But how fascinating that you felt the most, what did you say, beautiful when you were pregnant. But also, how magnificent is that? Because you were making a life.Dona Gill: Ha ha ha ha - you!Megan Gill: Like of course you felt beautiful, you know?Dona Gill: Oh, true. Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: But also, damn, because, what? You were pregnant with two kids. So 18 months of your life were you pregnant, and then all the other time you maybe didn’t feel what you felt while you were pregnant. And it’s like, I want you to be able to feel that. Yeah. I think that’s the important piece of this here. Yeah.Dona Gill: Guess so.Megan Gill: Is there anything else you wanna chat about?Dona Gill: For me? No. I don’t think so.Megan Gill: Okay. It’s good – you’re gonna cry.Dona Gill: The sun also is on my eyes. Anything else you wanna know about me?Megan Gill: Yeah! I wanna know what your favorite thing or things about your body are. They can be physical, non-physical, one of each. Whatever comes to mind. Totally up to you.Dona Gill: My favorite thing? My eyes. Eyes.Megan Gill: I do like your eyes.Dona Gill: I like that. I used to like my legs now, not so much anymore. They’re getting old.Megan Gill: They still carry you from place to place.Dona Gill: Yeah. Hard though. Hard. Yeah. I guess I like my mind with people.Megan Gill: That’s a good one!Dona Gill: Being able to socialize or being able to teach, being able to love, have fun.Megan Gill: Yeah, all important shit.Dona Gill: Other than that, maybe my nose.Megan Gill: I do like your nose.Dona Gill: A short little stubby nose, yeah. Otherwise, everything’s starting to get old and wrinkly, old and wrinkly and sun spots.Megan Gill: Well, I think that’s beautiful. I like your sun spots.Dona Gill: Thank you. Well, I’m glad you do.Megan Gill: I have some too, so I’m glad I’m looking at my future.Dona Gill: Well, I’m glad. You are sadly yes.Megan Gill: Don’t say sadly!Dona Gill: When I look in the mirror and say, “Oh my gosh, that’s my mom looking at me,” when I look in the mirror. And I never thought I would look like her, but I do now.Megan Gill: Oh god. Okay, what’s that experience like?Dona Gill: Very strange when you see the wrinkles in the same spots that she had. Like, gosh, I look like her. I never thought I would. It’s just – it’s strange.Megan Gill: “I never thought I would.”Dona Gill: I never thought I would, but it is a good connection. Then you’re like, “Okay, yeah, that was my mom.”Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s powerful. That’s really powerful. Wow.Dona Gill: We come from her.Megan Gill: And how silly it would be to want to change those things that remind you of your mom.Dona Gill: True.Megan Gill: Not that you would, but I think that a lot of women see wrinkles as – yeah.Dona Gill: Oh, for sure. Would I like some plastic surgery? Yes, for sure. Am I gonna do it? No.Megan Gill: Why do you think you would like it? Because society told you that it’s an option and that… you could do it?Dona Gill: Yeah, yes. I just think it would make me look better. Even though that means nothing. People at the store, do they really look at me and say, “Ooh, she’s got that ugly lady walking by”? No. Nobody does that.Megan Gill: Well, maybe don’t call yourself ugly.Dona Gill: Okay. That old lady?Megan Gill: Can I remind you that you’re my mother? Again, I will look like you one day. So please do not call yourself ugly.Dona Gill: “Look at that beautiful old lady walking by.”Megan Gill: Exactly!Dona Gill: “I wanna be like her. I wanna be like her.”Megan Gill: You are a beautiful.Dona Gill: Thank you.Megan Gill: You are welcome.Dona Gill: I am glad. Do I like my body now? No. Would I love to change it? Yeah. Is it hard to because I’m getting old? Yeah, for sure. So there’s the answer to all your questions.Megan Gill: Well, thank you for chatting with me today.Dona Gill: Yeah. Yay.Megan Gill:I know you were a bit hesitant to sit down and talk.Dona Gill: Very much, it’s very strange –Megan Gill: Hopefully cool.Dona Gill: – to hear you and your podcast voice and then having to answer your questions like that when you’re just my daughter.Megan Gill: All right.Dona Gill: And we should just talk.Megan Gill: Well, thanks for doing it.Dona Gill: Yeah, sure. Anytime.Megan Gill: Okay.Dona Gill: Anytime.Megan Gill: Okay.Dona Gill: We’re done.Megan Gill: We’re done!Dona Gill: Okay, cool.Megan Gill: That’s it!Dona Gill: Oh, my –“I think one of the best times that I felt really good about myself was when I was pregnant because our heredity is the tummy, that’s just my family all has it going way back as far as I know. The belly. So when I was pregnant, people would say, “You look good!” And I’m like, “Yeah, I do. Because now I can have a belly and it’s okay to have a belly when I’m pregnant.” So I used to think I looked really good pregnant. So maybe I should have had more kids.”- DONA GILLSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Amy Geist to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Amy Geist and I met on the set of a music video almost ten years ago. We’ve since produced multiple projects together and have both created short films with themes of body image. Amy is a powerhouse filmmaker and a wonderful human being, and she opens up so beautifully in our conversation about incredibly important topics.In our conversation, we discuss…* Amy’s short film, “Dysmorphia” and how it’s impacted her body image journey along with others* A peek into Amy’s body image origin story* Generational body image cycles* The mental gymnastics it takes to audition for GLP-1 commercials* Disconnecting from a deep-shame response when someone sees our body in a certain way* The nuance of your physical body being tied to your livelihood* Changing bodies isn’t supposed to be scary* Compassionately changing the narrative when others put their own bodies down - “it doesn’t have to be that way”* Stepping away from a triggering industry to healIt was a pleasure to sit down and chat with Amy. She’s hilarious and also has such an important perspective. I know I was changed from our conversation, so I cannot wait for you to hear it!“I guess I also don’t have any ill will towards our mothers who sort of unintentionally were doing the best that they could as well in just a fucked up system, you know? Don’t hate the player, hate the patriarchy, you know? Those messages are so just ingrained and can so easily be absorbed by things that – you know, talking about diet culture and sort of orthorexia part of diet culture that pops up and is disguised as health, and so, it’s like, you know, just so many different ways for this messaging to get ingrained in little ones and by, you know, no fault of a parent. But it is, I feel in my experience and in my family, I think the way that it got to me was very much, you know, passed down through different generations and growing up in the nineties and Slim Fast.”- Amy GeistMegan Gill: ​Amy, thank you for having this conversation with me today. I am excited to chat.Amy Geist: Oh, Megan, thank you for asking me.Megan Gill: Absolutely.Amy Geist: I’m excited to chat with you too.Megan Gill: Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?Amy Geist: Oh, sure. My name is Amy Geist and the work I do in the world is a producer and a writer/director of film and commercial. And then I’m also a burgeoning standup comedian as well over the past couple of years. and yeah, I work with a lot of indie filmmakers, new filmmakers, female filmmakers. Those are kind of my favorite people to work with. Yeah.Megan Gill: You’ve also created quite a few of your own projects as well.Amy Geist: Oh, thank you for reminding me. Yes, Megan. I wrote and directed a short film called Dysmorphia, which is a horror film, and around the themes that we’re gonna talk about, of body image and relationship with body and self and beauty standards and how sometimes those are inherited from our moms and from their moms. And I’ve also, as a producer, I guess, a writer and director, have produced a couple of, I guess, series weekends. One was called Fuse, where we had different female writer/directors and shot their films over five day, and they got to use those projects to be their calling card for projects and for to grow into a filmmaker, and a couple of them, one of them got into Sundance, one of them got into Tribeca, and that was kind of one of my favorite experiences as a producer in film. And then I did the weekend Collision Film Initiative, which we did together, where we got to film. Again, female filmmakers coming together to make four short films in a weekend. And those films are making their way through the film festival circuit as well, and giving people a chance to just try out their voice, get to know their voice more as an artist. And now we have these awesome, I guess, calling cards as well for ourselves. I think those are the things I did.Megan Gill: Yeah, thanks for sharing about them.Amy Geist: Yeah. Thanks for reminding me.Megan Gill: Absolutely! Well, it’s cool because you and I met in Chicago, I was thinking about it, almost 10 years ago.Amy Geist: Oh, wow.Megan Gill: Which is crazyAmy Geist: On a music video.Megan Gill: On a music video, which was actually one of my favorite projects even still to date.Amy Geist: It was a lot of fun.Megan Gill: Yeah, it was so unique and just a different acting experience for me at the time –Amy Geist: Yeah.Megan Gill: – that really impacted how I viewed film work.Amy Geist: Yeah.Megan Gill: And I feel it was an impetus for wanting to do more film work, but then you and I had reconnected because you moved to LA and then I moved to LA, and we reconnected here I wanna say about the time that you were in readings, doing table reads for your short film that you made about body image.Amy Geist: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely.Megan Gill: Right. I feel that’s where we kind of reconnected. And then our story, you and I, you shot your film and then I shortly shot my film A Broadway Body, which you helped me produce, and introduced me to what it is to create your own short film.Amy Geist: Yes, yes.Megan Gill: And both of these pieces were centering around body image themes, which I think is really cool. Now, looking back in hindsight. And it’s interesting that these worlds kind of brought us back together here in Los Angeles.Amy Geist: I know, right?Megan Gill: Yeah.Amy Geist: That’s something that I am – I have a joke about that in one of my sets of like, yeah, I waited till LA to go into recovery for an eating disorder. You know, because I a challenge. I don’t wanna make it too easy. So why not go to the one place that makes it hardest to accept yourself.Megan Gill: Throw yourself to the fire.Amy Geist: Yeah, just give it a shot. Yeah. duh. Of course we worked together on A Broadway Body. I gotta get better talking about my –Megan Gill: Oh my god, no, you’re perfectly fine. You do so many things I was even perusing your website just obviously so impressed by all the different things you’re doing and all the different projects you’re working on and how your hands are in all these different creative pots. But yeah, I just thought it was interesting this timeline of – sorry, not to jump in, but this timeline of when we’d met around 10 years ago, I know, at least for me, I was kind of in the throes of my unhealthy relationship to my body and my self-image, and then moving to LA, kind of where you were starting to go with it, and creating this work that’s centered around trying to heal those parts of myself and trying to heal my relationship to my body, and then also being involved in a project where you had written the story around body dysmorphia and those types of themes with how toxic the beauty industry can be. And then now a couple years removed from that, just sitting back, I just think that there’s something really powerful about that.Amy Geist: Well yeah, I think something that’s cool about the juxtaposition of our projects is just that there’s so much to say around this subject because our films could not be more different, you know? So it’s like, which I think just as a credit to A, our, our different voices as, as artists and filmmakers, and B, how many different angles and points of view you can have on the same subject because it affects just so many people so many women.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely 100%. And I think it’s interesting that you chose the theme of horror because Dysmorphia is a horror film. It’s incredible, by the way. I was revisiting parts of it before our conversation. And yeah, some of it is hard, like, going back to it, I was resistant to it. I didn’t wanna watch it. I’m like, ugh, I know this is difficult to watch. So I’m curious how – because I know it was really important to you to talk about these themes in the horror setting, so I’m curious to hear you speak a little bit more on that and how that maybe helps you navigate the topics or helped you find your voice within how you wanted to say what you wanted to say. Yeah. Anything that comes up for you.Amy Geist: Yeah. I mean, I think, I am myself a horror fan. I always have loved horror and I’ve always, in college I used to write plays and you got to put them on in college for free. And it did not set us up for the realistic experience of making those outside of college. But you got to do it for free. And so you were able to do all this weird stuff, and I had a reputation of like, “Oh, Amy’s weird to put up another weird thing,” because it was just, I think always more interesting to me, to explore from a visceral and what I felt was an honest, more of a place where people could interpret and take away what they wanted from what was going on.And I think what I liked about horror as a genre for this project in particular was because one of the reasons that I wanted to do it was, you know, going through an eating disorder for 20 years and from when I was 15 to 34 and just the different – the actual experience, the visceral experience of being in it when it was most active and the process of recovery, and never really seeing something in media that reflected that experience of my personal experience of what that was like, of only really ever seeing the Lifetime movies that are very like, “Oh, she stopped eating, but then we took her to the hospital. Now she’s okay,” and just very simplified and sanitized of these struggles and always making it the focus about the pathology of the disorder rather than kind of like, how do we get here?And so, yeah, that seemed a really good opportunity for Dysmorphia, to really talk about the first person, to encapsulate, I guess, the first-person experience of going through something like that. I want to very much say Dysmorphia is not autobiographical in any way. It is entirely fictional, but it is inspired, yeah, by just the first person experience of going through something like that. So, and I think to really kind of drive home Isabella’s struggle, to visualize her psychological struggles, horrific shadowy figures seemed like the best way to go.Megan Gill: Did writing and going through the process of creating this piece of art that in some ways reflected your own struggles, at least what I’m garnering from what you’re saying. Was that healing for you in any way?Amy Geist: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, luckily when I – I guess luckily or not, but when I really kinda started on this process, I was already a couple years into recovery of what I felt was an actual recovery. And so, I think I created a little bit of a buffer of distance with the experience, which I think made it easier for me to make a project about it because I think if I’d still been a little too close to it, it would not have been a healthy experience. So I had a bit of a distance from it, but I do think what was healing was actually talking to, you know, the crew that worked on it, people that saw it, people that read it, and hearing how it made a part of them feel seen and acknowledged, and people coming up and feeling safe to share their story with me and their experience, because they haven’t really felt they’ve seen something that really touched on what they went through in a real way. And so, I think that in itself was – I didn’t expect to happen, but was like, I do think healing and rewarding and a really beautiful experience every time somebody trusted me with that information.Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s really hitting me in the emos, Amy, because this is your baby. This is your creative baby that you are now tied to in such a beautiful way because, just the fact that it did open up pathways for these conversations to be had and for people to feel seen in this creative piece that you created is so important. And one of the ways that I think we’re continuing to get this conversation rolling and to kind of uncover some of these things that we all experience that we don’t usually talk about because a lot of it is really dark. And a lot of people do struggle – I mean, no matter what level of depth you’re struggling on, it can be difficult to talk about.Amy Geist: Yeah, and I think that was another thing that horror helped with was it giving it enough of a distance where it didn’t feel quite as raw or touch quite a nerve because you can have that separation of like, “Well, that’s make believe,” you know?Megan Gill: Yeah.Amy Geist: You know, “There aren’t really monsters!” So I think allowing people to maybe process it in a different way, yeah.Megan Gill: Totally. Yeah. I love that. I was perusing some comments because Dysmorphia is on YouTube, an Alter for viewing pleasure (for free!), we will obviously link it to the Substack. But one of the comments that jumped out at me if I can share it –Amy Geist: Sure.Megan Gill: – kind of aligned with what we’re speaking about. And I just think that it’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately and just a really beautiful thing that somebody – beautiful, I don’t know, really important thing that somebody said. Okay, so this person said:“One thing someone once told me helps me fight off the urge to have plastic surgery. My mother passed away some years ago and people always used to say how much we looked alike. Now that she’s gone, the features that I always hate(d) about myself, like my nose and face shape, are the things I want to keep as they are because it reminds me of her and she created me. If I would change them then I would no longer see her when I look in the mirror, discard what she created and not love her face. Thank you mom, miss you so much.”And this also just brings me to the piece of where you were speaking in the beginning about how a lot of this can be passed down generationally, or when our mothers don’t heal their trauma and their unhealthy relationships to their self-image and their body, it can get passed down to us. I just think that this – I’m just so glad that you made this piece of art because that was a really powerful comment to read.Amy Geist: That’s beautiful. I definitely got a little emotional listening to that. That’s like – I haven’t read that. I kind of intentionally stopped reading the comments –Megan Gill: Oh, god, sorry.Amy Geist: – for my own – no, no, no, no. No, that’s a very good one. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. You know, as any – because if you believe all the good ones, you have to believe the bad ones or whatever. Isn’t that something somebody said? But this is a really good one because I think that’s so beautifully said. And I will say I know a large part of Dysmorphia deals with plastic surgery, and I do wanna say that I believe in bodily autonomy, absolutely. I do not want to demonize anybody that chooses to get plastic surgery. I think it should be a personal choice between you, your doctors, whatever you want to do. And I know this movie can be interpreted as a statement against plastic surgery, so I do wanna say I do not demonize or pass judgment on people who do it. I think it’s you gotta do what you gotta do to feel safe in your body. And I think it was just an element that I use in the film because of just the inherent violence that it comes with surgery. The violence of surgery – I’m personally terrified of getting surgery. I’ve never gotten a major surgeryMegan Gill: Same.Amy Geist: Right? Yeah, where’s the wood to knock on. Let’s knock on something. And so I think just the inherent violence of voluntarily going under the knife and having your body ripped apart and put back together is just sort of just using that as a way to show the violence that we inflict on ourselves. And so it was more of a tool narratively than of people who do that.And yeah, I guess, you know, when it comes to the mom, it is just like, oh man, aren’t we little sponges? Just little baby us, we’re just little baby sponges. I guess I also don’t have any ill will towards our mothers who sort of unintentionally were doing the best that they could as well in just a fucked up system, you know? Don’t hate the player, hate the patriarchy, you know?Megan Gill: It’s so true.Amy Geist: Those messages are so just ingrained and can so easily be absorbed by things that – you know, talking about diet culture and sort of orthorexia part of diet culture that pops up and is disguised as health, and so, it’s like, you know, just so many different ways for this messaging to get ingrained in little ones and by, you know, no fault of a parent. But it is, I feel in my experience and in my family, I think the way that it got to me was very much a, you know, passed down through different generations and growing up in the nineties and Slim Fast and –Megan Gill: Oh god, yeah. Yep. Yes.Amy Geist: Wasn’t that the worst.Megan Gill: I’m sitting here thinking same! And in the non – what am I trying to say? Like, my mom didn’t push these things onto me in a negative light.Amy Geist: Right. Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: There was enthusiasm about it, you know, and it was just disguised with this, this is good for you.Amy Geist: Yeah.Megan Gill: It is really sad to think about how unknowingly so many mothers have probably done that to their children. But also, at the same time, I do think it was a very particular era that we grew up in where, side note, I’m gonna have a conversation with my mom over Thanksgiving, and I’m very curious to dive into kind of how this stuff showed up with her mom and if anything was present as she was growing up, because we’ve never really talked about that. And I am just so curious because a lot of what I’ve been thinking about lately in having these conversations is like, okay, obviously I know my experience growing up in the nineties and the early two thousands and a lot of my peers in this same millennial stage of life had a very similar experience. And it’s cool because I do think with the resources now, some of it is shifting. Yes, as toxic as social media can be, the fact that people are even talking about this –Amy Geist: Yes.Megan Gill: – online and on a wider scale, or making art about it, it’s becoming more of a topic of conversation I think is really impactful and it’s what’s gonna help drive change. Where our moms, when we were 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, there were probably no conversations about how fucked up the Slim Fast regimen was, you know?Amy Geist: Girl. No. No. There were no conversations about any of anything, really! It was just what was in the new issue of People or Cosmo or on MTV. It was just such a limited funnel of pop culture of messages of, like, “Are you as thin as Naomi Watts?”—[Timecode: 26:22]Amy Geist: It’s a struggle, it is. It’s a gross feeling. The GLP-1 ads, it’s so wild, right? It’s just wild because our industry is wild in that way of, you know, you see the character description of what you’re auditioning for and it’s like, “Interesting faces. We don’t need model faces. We need interesting ones.” And it’s like, “Okay, okay, cool. It’s good to have an interesting face, I guess.” And the way that casting will just talk about your body – and I think it’s been like, I’ve had to check in with myself of like, because in the past, especially when I was closer to my disorder of feeling immense amounts of shame when someone would talk about my body in a certain way. So now being a place where I’ve disconnected myself from a shame reaction when I hear that because it’s like, I mean, that’s just the truth of my body is I have a larger body. So I think the silliest insult that anyone could ever do is like, “Well, you’re fat!” I’m just like, “Okay, well, great job.”Megan Gill: “You’ve accomplished nothing.”Amy Geist: Yeah. It’s like, “Are we just saying things that we see?”Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Amy Geist: “You’re an asshole.” So it’s just like, I think, disconnecting myself from a deep, shameful response when I hear those words. And I think just checking in with myself when I get these auditions. And I think the ultimate irony of these auditions is like, if everyone was taking this, how are you gonna sell it, man? You need my body. You need my body to be this size in order to sell a way to make it smaller. So it’s just wild. You, in one hand, want my body to not exist because you’re selling this product to make it disappear. And yet, if I did not exist, you would be obsolete. So it’s just wild, honestly, every time. There’s definitely been a couple that I’ve said no to. And there have been some that I’ve auditioned for because it’s the reality of, I guess just checking in with myself every time. And, well, let’s be very clear. I’ve never gotten to the point where I was offered a GLP-1 commercial. And so, I do think if I ever got to that point, it would probably be a different conversation internally. So I guess in my mind I’m like, okay, well this is just an audition and I’m just auditioning for this casting director. And then I guess if it comes down to me being the person at the end that’s dancing the salsa or so happy because they’re – you know what I mean, then I would be different. But yeah, it’s wild.Megan Gill: Yeah. Thanks for sharing your experience with that too. I think it’s helpful just to talk about.—[Timecode: 34:32]Amy Geist: It’s so stressful. And especially what you’re saying in an industry where we’re both pretty reliant on our bodies and the way that they look, and I can’t imagine. That’s gotta be so tough to balance on your end as well of having such an intimate – having to look in the mirror, having to look in the mirror barely clothed, having to stand in front – and there are just so many triggers in there. And so, it seems what you’re going through needs constant sort of vigilance to stay because those voices are always there. They’re stil there.Megan Gill: Oh yeah. Yep.Amy Geist: No matter how recovered you are, they’re just waiting. They’re like, “Eh? Is this my chance to come back?”Megan Gill: Yeah, even not when I’m working, right? Even just on a random Tuesday –Amy Geist: Yep.Megan Gill: – they’re still extremely present. So yeah, that is an interesting point about the hyper-vigilance. And even just self taping and having to see yourself in different phases of your cycle on camera. We have to also remember that our bodies change. So as women, our bodies change so much in a four-week cycle. And the way we – at least me, the way I feel in my body changes so much and can trigger certain things too. So I think we just have to continue to remind ourselves and each other that it’s okay to change and that it’s actually really fucking magical, and what a cool thing to get to age. Granted, I’m sitting here at 33 years old. Ask me in ten years, I really hope… I really hope that I can say the same thing. And I think that this project has helped me stay in that mindset and helped me keep my eye on the prize kind of in a way. Like, no, aging is cool and aging is a privilege.Amy Geist: A privilege. Absolutely.Megan Gill: And also why would I wanna give all my money to these things that – to this industry that’s trying to make me change so much? No, I actually my smile lines. I want to keep them, you know? But that’s just me. And I think that we maybe, hot take, need a little bit more of people with you and i’s perspective here to kind of combat the noise. Not that any one way is correct because there is no one correct way. It’s gonna be different for everyone, but I’m like, maybe that’s my thought around how we kind of conquer all of these messages we’re hearing about how we do have to change, right?Amy Geist: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it all starts with of what we both did of doing the homework to heal your own relationship with your body and to be in a place where – and I think doing that will put you in a place where you can hold space for other people, because I think it’s so hard to do that when you can’t – you know, put the mask on the kid before to save yourself. You know, you can’t save everybody at the same time. You gotta work on yourself, put your own mask on. Wait, what?Megan Gill: Yeah! Yeah, you put your own mask on first.Amy Geist: You put your own mask on before you save the kid. Put your own mask on before you save the kid. You know?Megan Gill: Right.Amy Geist: Because you can’t save everybody at the same time.Megan Gill: Totally. So true.Amy Geist: But yeah, so I think that’s a really important place to start. And I think I try to sort of just offer a different perspective, really, because I know from my own experience and I know just from cognitive bias and the way that our brains work, coming in and being like, “Actually, you’re wrong for the following reasons,” is like, not gonna – nobody wants to listen to that.Megan Gill: Right.Amy Geist: So just when I hear people using language or talking about their bodies in a certain way or being really hateful towards themselves, I usually just try to offer a, “Well, the size of your body does not have any moral standing on who you are as a person,” and just offering a, “That actually doesn’t have to be that,” and, and sometimes it’s taken and sometimes it’s not. And that’s kind of the most that I try to do just because it’s like are you gonna change somebody’s wiring of their brain in three seconds? No, but it could be a thought that is a seed that is planted, that they’re like, “Oh, what if this was something that I – what if I thought about myself in a different way? Or just maybe something that pops up, you know?Megan Gill: That’s really beautifully put and a very similar experience to what I have in those scenarios as well. And I do have to believe that you never know what the planting of the seed could do, but that we do have to approach it from a place of compassion and from a place of, “I care about you and I’m not pushing my shit on you.” I feel I always talk about this, but my friends at this point obviously know that I’m the body image girl, so don’t talk shit about yourself, because I will chime in, you know? My close friends at least. And it’s like I kind of like it because it allows me to like – I don’t know. It’s like once you see it, you can’t unsee it, right?So I’m sure you probably feel similarly where when someone is talking poorly about their body or something is said in terms of, I don’t know, how our body shouldn’t be changing or aging isn’t cool or whatever, it’s like I can’t not hear that. I’m gonna hear it every single time, which I do appreciate and I think it has opened my eyes up. Just having that general awareness has been a really interesting thing. But then to be able to exercise the ability to come in and, if I’m going to offer something, do it from a place of neutralized compassion.Amy Geist: Yeah, I mean that’s so important, right? And I think that that’s one of the ways that I can gauge in myself if I’m trying to talk about something that I’m not totally healed from. if I feel myself being very triggered and very defensive about something that someone is saying and then notice that me wanting to combat them is coming from a place of it’s about me, it’s my own stuff, then kind of points to, “Oh, maybe I need to do more work on this before I start trying to give advice to other people.”Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay. I have a final question I wanna ask you, but before I do, is there anything else that you want to bring up or touch on that we haven’t yet?Amy Geist: I guess the one thing I’ll say is we talk about a lot about the recovery process, and I do think us both being actors and I don’t know if there’s anyone else – I mean, I know there are so many other people that are actors that are probably struggling with this or have a very intimate relationship with this. And I think one of the most important things that I ever did for myself in healing from this eating disorder and also for my career was to take a break from acting.I took a five year break because it was impossible for me to heal in an industry that is so triggering kind of what we’ve already said. So I stepped away for five years to just take care of myself and my relationship and figure out what it was like to be in my body with nobody looking, you know? And then that’s when we kind of reconnected, in LA, and I started going to acting class again and started, you know?Megan Gill: Doing comedy!Amy Geist: And started doing comedy, and I think back to it from that place of being – because there’s so much of the romanticized starving or tortured artist bullshit that you get as an actor as well. And I think that being on the other side of that and coming back to acting, I think I definitely A) could definitely never have done standup. I could never have done standup had I not done that. And then also have such a different relationship with acting and be able to hold it a little more softly and not have it define my self-worth. And it’s like, able to not be as triggered by it. And I think I never, again, would have tried comedy. I definitely would not be able to write about all the things that I can write about. I use a lot of my experience with my body and aging in my standup because I think there’s a lot of humor there of just – and I think that it’s something that’s so universal and then like, that’s what I want to use a platform for is to talk about something that’s like, isn’t this crazy that we’re all dealing with this? Does anyone else have a mustache? You know, and I think that’s what’s really fun about comedy now for me is being able to use all of that shit that I was scared of before and find the humor in it.Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yeah, that’s really powerful. And then just also brings me back to the modality with which you are sharing these certain pieces of yourself. You used the genre of horror to talk about this heavy topic of body dysmorphia, and then you’re using comedy to now talk about the very real things that it is to age and exist in a body and live in Los Angeles and be an actor and a comedian and all of these things that are just so real and relatable. And I think that the way that you are using your voice and sharing your story and your stories is really impactful.Amy Geist: Well, thanks, man.Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you!Megan Gill: Okay, love that. And thank you. I had made notes about some of those things, so I’m really glad we circled back to that because –Amy Geist: Yeah, there’s so much.Megan Gill: Yes, yes. Literally. I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are, and they could be physical, non-physical, a combo of both. Totally up to you. What is your favorite thing or things about your body, Amy?Amy Geist: Oh my gosh, this little giggle, this little giggle! What are my favorite thing or things about my body? I feel I should have thought about this. I think my favorite thing about my body is it holds me and allows me to access the world out of health and privilege. I don’t have a lot of restrictions in my body, so I think my favorite thing is I have a lot of respect and appreciation for what it allows me to do in the world. And I think if we’re talking from just an aesthetic perspective, I think my eyes are pretty cool.Megan Gill: Yeah, they’re lovely.Amy Geist: I think so. Thank you. I haven’t thought of – that’s such a good question because I feel that’s something I should ask myself more often. I think I’ve defaulted to being very neutral about my body and just being like, “Yep, there it is. That’s what it looks like.” So, to like, yeah, take a moment to say what you like I about it is a good idea.Megan Gill: Yeah, and it can shift every day. It can shift morning and night. It’s so cool that it is another thing that can change and evolve, and how beautiful is that? And I think that the more that I’ve been exploring this question with others and with myself, the more I have been able to look at parts of myself that I’ve struggled with before and been able to see them through a different lens, which is very interesting in terms of speaking about seeing yourself very neutrally, through a neutral lens. It’s been a really interesting experience. That does not happen all the time, but when it does, it’s like, “What is going on? This is crazy!” Literally.But thank you for your feedback on the question and thank you for sharing and thank you so much for having this conversation with me, Amy. I really, really enjoyed it, and I’m grateful to you.Amy Geist: Oh my gosh. I’m grateful for you asking me. Thank you for having me. It was such a blast to dive deep and always a blast to see you and talk to you. So thank you.Megan Gill: Same. Of course!“When I really kinda started on this process, I was already a couple years into recovery of what I felt was an actual recovery. And so, I think I created a little bit of a buffer of distance with the experience, which I think made it easier for me to make a project about it because I think if I’d still been a little too close to it, it would not have been a healthy experience. So I had a bit of a distance from it, but I do think what was healing was actually talking to, you know, the crew that worked on it, people that saw it, people that read it, and hearing how it made a part of them feel seen and acknowledged, and people coming up and feeling safe to share their story with me and their experience, because they haven’t really felt they’ve seen something that really touched on what they went through in a real way. And so, I think that in itself was – I didn’t expect to happen, but was like, I do think healing and rewarding and a really beautiful experience every time somebody trusted me with that information.”- Amy GeistHailing from Ohio, Amy Geist is a Producer, Director, Writer, and Founder of Beloved Root Films. She started in Los Angeles as a commercial Producer and Production Manager.Her feature film work includes Blade Runner 2049 (Alcon Entertainment *Academy Award Winning), Little (Universal), Trees of Peace (Netflix), Bar Fight (IFC Films), #FBF (Mar Vista Entertainment), and Trap House (Signature Entertainment).She produced Fuse, a series of five short films, for Powderkeg Media: launched by Paul Feig and Laura Fischer. The films went on to premiere at Sundance and Tribeca.Her film Dysmorphia premiered at Hollywood ShortsFest where it won the Grand Jury Award. Dysmorphia went on to screen at other well-known festivals such Hollyshorts and during it’s festival run won Best Cinematography and Best Horror Film. You can watch it on Alter for free. During the 2023 strike she started performing stand-up. Since then she has toured in Colorado, headlined at the Moab Women’s Festival, and won won Best in Fest at the Burbank Comedy Festival. You can see her on stage at the Hollywood Improv Lab, The Crow, Flappers, or The Kookaburra Lounge. She most recently produced a stand-up comedy fundraiser: BeCause We Can Comedy and all proceeds went to help a family in Gaza.More About Amy Here!IG: @thatamygeistWatch DysmorphiaWatch SupportWatch FractalWatch T.G.I.F. Y2KSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my sweet friend Destiny Allen to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Destiny and I have known each other for a few years now (spoiler alert: she’s dating two of my besties), and being an expert in the field of bridal fashion, I was so excited she agreed to have a conversation with me.Destiny is making waves in the way she shows up as a bridal consultant. She works at LOHO, which literally stands for League Of Her Own, and she also has big plans of opening her own shop one day that caters to all types of people who are getting married. (Bridal suits? Yes, please!). I know that what Destiny creates is going to be much needed in our world, and I can’t wait to see the incredible lives she continues to impact!In our conversation, we discuss…* How empowering brides despite their preconceived notions about their bodies helps Destiny to connect to her own body image in a helpful way* Shutting down body shaming in bridal appointments* Your wedding dress needs to fit you - not the other way around* Her goals of opening her own shop that provides bridal suits to the queer community* Wearing clothes that reflect our personal style* The origins of Destiny’s body image story and dealing with body image bullies* Reminding yourself how incredible your body is, first and foremost* Finding the hope in the intersection of young people, body image, and social mediaI cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“ I think that’s the beauty of fashion and why I fell in love with it too is because find pieces that make me feel confident, and I’ve stopped trying to fit into this box of what people think I should be wearing. I’ve moved past that, and now I’ve truly found myself. I’m also like, “Oh, if I don’t feel good wearing dresses and skirts, I don’t have to wear them.” I can wear what I want. That makes me feel the best in my body.”- Destiny AllenMegan Gill: Hi Destiny!Destiny Allen: Hi!Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you are here having this conversation with me today. Thank you for joining me!Destiny Allen: Yes, of course. I’m excited!Megan Gill: So do you wanna start by just introducing yourself, who you are, and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?Destiny Allen: Yeah, so my name is Destiny. I’m a bridal stylist, so I’ve been styling brides for about nine years now. So it’s been a minute since I’ve been in that area. And by styling, I mean finding dresses for the brides, because I feel people hear styling and they think I do hair and makeup, and I’m like, absolutely not. So just the actual fashion of it. So that’s kind of what I do.Megan Gill: Very cool. And also I can only imagine how that ties into what we’re here to talk about today, which is the overarching theme of body image, because I have never been married myself, but I have ideas in my head and have experienced being around my friends on their wedding day, and your dress is a big, important piece of the puzzle of feeling really good about yourself and being in your body on this big, exciting day where you are on display in front of so many people, friends and family, and you really just wanna be able to, I can imagine, feel your best so that you can not be in your head and just be really present and enjoy your special day with your people and the person that you are getting married to.Destiny Allen: Yeah, definitely. So I feel like there’s a lot of pressure around having to change your body for your wedding day. There’s so much stress behind it. Every bride is like, “Oh, but I’m gonna lose 10+ pounds and I’m gonna be this and this,” and I’m like, “You do not have to do that.”I think my biggest thing in bridal when I hear someone say, “Oh, this would look good if I lost this much weight,” I tell them that that is not their dress because they need to feel beautiful in the dress the way they are at this moment. So I think that’s huge. I don’t wanna hear anyone say, “When I change my body, then it’ll look good.” Then it’s not the one.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh. I love that.Destiny Allen: There’s a lot of pressure with moms. That’s a big thing, the family dynamics. A lot of moms put the pressure for people to lose weight, which is crazy to hear because my mom is the most supportive person. So it’s so bizarre to hear a mom say, “Oh, when she loses weight, it’ll look better.” It’s a crazy thing. It’s mind blowing. So, yeah, I feel I’m also a little bit of a therapist as well, because I wanna make sure the energy’s good. So I feel there’s a role where I have to protect my bride at the same time as styling them.Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I think, what sets somebody like you apart from just maybe the average stylist and having that awareness going into – is it called a bridal session or the bridal appointment where they’re trying on the dresses? It’s an appointment?Destiny Allen: Yes.Megan Gill: Okay. Can you tell I’ve never been down this road before?Destiny Allen: That’s okay. That’s okay!Megan Gill: But I would want to have somebody like you working with me, but I can only imagine, especially in Los Angeles, the amount of mother-daughter dynamics that come through. And I just wanna point out that it’s really amazing that you are showing up the way you are and that that is so top of mind for you. I know when I approached you about having this conversation, that was something that you shared with me, and it’s just so important because you’re helping to break those generational cycles. Even if a mom wants to say that, you chiming in or offering your perspective on it to the bride or whatever it may be, could really change the trajectory of someone’s thought process about their daughter’s body or about their own body, honestly. Because right, it’s this concept of I need to, whether it’s lose 10 pounds or do X or do Y to be happy, at least I believe is never going to give us true happiness, right? We have to accept where we are and work to find the joy in where we are right now.Destiny Allen: Yes, very much so. I think I love just being that voice for these brides because none of their friends or family are saying that to them. They’re just kind of being like, “Oh, yeah wear undergarments,” or, “When you do lose 10 pounds…” you know? It’s such a fucked up thing. And I’m like, “No, no, no, no. You are perfect the way you are right now, and you have to feel confident in what you’re wearing. So this is not your dress. We’re gonna move on and find the one that makes you feel that way.”But yeah, I don’t know. I’ve been in bridal for so long, and I think so many people have said negative things about me and my body that I think it’s so inspiring for me to flip that and be the person that is empowering for people to feel beautiful in their own skin because I’ve had so many people try to put me down. I wanna do the opposite for brides and just women in general.Megan Gill: Yeah, which is incredible and I feel that’s one of the many ways that we can take the adversities we face or, you know, the tough situations with whoever’s telling us these things, because I’ve been there too, and flip it around to change the narrative and to help other people see that there is a different way to view these things.Destiny Allen: Yeah, absolutely.Megan Gill: Yeah, and also just thinking about the piece of you guiding the brides who are feeling like, “Oh, well this dress would be perfect if I lost 10 pounds,” or whatever it may be, guiding them to understand that, no, then that dress isn’t for you because it doesn’t fit you in a way that makes you feel good, and then finding the dress that does fit you well as you are today is such an important concept for women dressing themselves say-to-day as well. I think that is something that I think a lot of women get hung up on, myself included. The understanding that the clothes are supposed to fit us. We are not supposed to fit this garment that we think we need to fit into for XYZ reason.Destiny Allen: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s the beauty of fashion and why I fell in love with it too, is because I find pieces that make me feel confident, and I’ve stopped trying to fit into this box of what people think I should be wearing. I’ve moved past that and now I’ve truly found myself. I’m also like, oh, if I don’t feel good wearing dresses and skirts, I don’t have to wear them. I can wear what I want that makes me feel the best in my body. So that’s why I do bridal. And sometimes I have days where I’m like, “Why do I do this?” Because you get so many different energies in the store, and sometimes it’s crazy. But I get the brides where I’m like, “This is why I do this.”Because, you know, I think my favorite thing is when a bride comes in super insecure, super nervous, super shy, and then by the end of the appointment, she’s crying because of how beautiful she feels. And she’s thanking me for the experience and I’m like, okay, this is why I do it. Because she came in so nervous about who she is and dresses and not being able to find something that she likes because of body issues, and then I’m able to help her – it’s a journey – flip it. So I think that’s why I love it so much. I mean, like I said, I have moments, but it’s really just to get women to feel beautiful within their own skin.Megan Gill: Which is really transformational because then hopefully that woman that you impacted in that way is able to then walk into dressing rooms on her own and maybe feel a little bit more confident or have more of an understanding of the types of garments to look for that she’s attracted to, that she wants to wear, that are calling to her.Destiny Allen: Yeah, I mean, we all have our things about our bodies, and I think that’s very normal. I always have thoughts back, because I think my body issue started back in middle school. I think if somebody didn’t say anything to me about my body, I wouldn’t have insecurities. It’s so crazy to see it. People would come up to me and be like, “Are you anorexic? You look like you’re anorexic. You look sick. You’re too skinny. Eat a burger,” you know? All of the things that I feel people don’t think about with thin people has happened to me.Even in the bridal space, back in Maryland, I had a curve bride look at me and she didn’t even wanna work with me. I didn’t even get to say hi to her yet.Megan Gill: Whoa.Destiny Allen: And that sticks with me. Isn’t that crazy how somebody so insecure comes in of her insecurities, she looks at my body and doesn’t wanna work with me, without me even being able to say hi to her. I think that type of story makes me feel stronger to be able to like, I don’t know – little nabs, jabs that, I’m like, wow, that’s crazy to think that you looked at me for one second and said, “No, I won’t work with her,” because of my body type. Isn’t that crazy?Megan Gill: It’s wild.Destiny Allen: That’s the thing too. I’m like, I could have given her the best experience and I could have been her bestie by the end, but she didn’t even gimme a chance because of the way my body is.Megan Gill: Right, which is so wildly unfair to you.Destiny Allen: Yeah.Megan Gill: And it’s unfortunate because I think it does stem so much from just, like you said, societal conditioning. Where did those people that were approaching you and making comments about your body out of left field, where did they learn it from? Unfortunately, just the way that our culture is as a whole. And also I think it’s important to point out, on your end, as being someone in a thinner body that it’s happening both ways too. Because I think a lot of times we’re just a little bit more aware of, of course, people in bigger bodies have a hard time dealing with people commenting on their bodies. I think that’s just something that culturally, as a whole, we have a general awareness of.Destiny Allen: Yeah.Megan Gill: But it’s like, it can go either way. And I’m not trying to categorize thin bodies and plus size bodies.Destiny Allen: Right.Megan Gill: No matter what your body is, you probably deal with something of the sort.Destiny Allen: Yeah.Megan Gill: Which is also really sad that we’re all struggling in these ways and yet we’re still attacking each other or still placing judgment on somebody without even trying to understand their story or who they are or what they’re about, or how they approach their work.Destiny Allen: Right. Yeah, it’s such a crazy thing. We were just born this. This is just our bodies. We should be so grateful that we have legs and arms. It’s so crazy to judge someone by the way their body looks. I’m like, well, we’re healthy. That should be something to appreciate.But yeah, no, I feel I’ve been so even shut down if I try to – I just even remember talking to friends in high school and just being shut down because of my struggles because it’s so opposite than other people’s struggles and they belittled me in that way, by me being like, “You know, I really struggle with being so skinny. I wanna gain weight.” It ends up being a joke to a lot of people. So, you know, you kind of stop talking about it because people think it’s funny because that’s — you know, I guess the American dream is to be thin or whatever, but I’m like, “No, you guys, I struggle so immensely with my body as well.” That’s a huge thing.It’s so interesting that, on the other spectrum of things, people just shut it down because they think it’s not their issue, so they don’t understand it.Megan Gill: Right, there’s no empathetic thread there to have an understanding because, at least I believe, our society has ingrained this ideal into us through the beauty industry and through beauty standards and diet culture and all of the things. This piece has come up in recent conversation, and I think it’s such an important thing to touch on and to talk about, and I’m really glad that you’re sharing about it today because it breaks my heart, and it’s so unfair for you to be dismissed like that. It’s like, no. That’s part of the reason why I want to do this project and talk to just a bunch of different people about their body image story, because we all have one, and I think that a lot of peoples’ get dismissed or get disregarded because of the way society categorizes what their body looks like, which is just incredibly unfair.Destiny Allen: It really is. Yeah, it’s tricky, and I think at this point in time, I have grown so much from all of the people that have commented on my body, and I think it was way worse in Maryland, where I’m from. For some reason it was constant, even just when I was just working my job, I would have moms being like, “Oh, I need to feed you.” It would be constantly someone once a day at least saying something.Megan Gill: Oh, my god.Destiny Allen: It’s miraculous that I even stayed in the industry because it was kind of like, “Oh, I’m here to empower women, but they’re bashing me down.” So it’s such an interesting thing, but I think that’s what makes me so much stronger is I made it through all of that, and I’m still working on loving myself. I think everyone is. I think that’s something that’ll forever be worked on, but I really do love who I am, and I am appreciating and loving my body now way more than I ever have. So it’s nice that I’m still in the industry and have made it through.13:10Megan Gill: Yeah, I 100% agree because it might be easier to just take the easy way out sometimes, right? And not face these things day to day. At work specifically, hearing comments about your body all the time at work in an industry where you are helping other women. It’s not about what you look like, it’s about what the women – you know, it’s not even about what they – well, I guess it is about what they look like, unfortunately. because that’s just what it is when you’re looking to find your wedding day attire, also about what you feel like, but it’s just so, so wild. And I can relate to that in a sense, but it’s kind of different, I feel like, because my body is on display a lot of times in my work. But I do feel you on the fact that, at this point in my life, I have learned to just have an understanding and have empathy for the people that are saying these things. Granted, it’s a little bit more understood in my industry because if I’m fit modeling in front of people, it’s like, well, you don’t have the right necessarily to comment on my body in certain ways. It’s a very nuanced, fine line, but it’s, yeah, just wild to hear that you were faced with so much of that. And you’re like, whoa, whoa. This is not about me. What’s going on here?Destiny Allen: Yeah. And you know, I can always understand, everyone would be like, oh, well that’s their insecurities. That’s why they’re talking about your body. I’m like, yeah, I understand that, but it doesn’t take away the pain when somebody’s commenting on your body. I can understand that they have something they’re not happy with in their life, but it still stings a little.And you know, I think ever since, I said, middle school like, and then in high school for me, Snapchat was becoming a thing, and I had a girl – I would play with the guys at lunch, basketball and stuff. And I had a girl circle my body post it and say, “Oh my god, why is she so skinny?” And posted it everywhere, and I am not a quiet person when it comes to that. So I, of course, I didn’t even know her. I had to add her on, gosh, Instagram and message her and be like, “What the fuck is that?” Like, I kind of confronted her, of course, and she just kind of was like, “Oh, that wasn’t meant in a mean way. I meant that in a nice way.” And I was like, “No, it’s just because you’re being confronted right now. Let’s be honest here.” I was like, “Take that shit down and fuck off.” You know? It infuriaterates me, because also how embarrassing to have your body circled and posted all over and then have multiple people send it to you and be like, “Just to let you know this is happening.” It traumatized me.Megan Gill: I can imagine, especially as a young, young person, I don’t wanna say kid, you’re in high school, but still it’s like our brains aren’t fully developed yet. We’re figuring out who we are, we’re figuring out how to exist in this odd, bizarre social climate that we’re just stuck in for four years plus, whatever. Oh my god. I’m so sorry that that happened, and I’m so glad – I mean, it sucks because you shouldn’t have to take on the emotional labor of having to confront this person, this kid, for doing this. But I’m glad that you did. Ugh.Destiny Allen: I think that’s something that I’ve never been scared of is speaking up for myself, but it doesn’t take away the fact that it tore me down, but it’s such a crazy time too. I worry so much about the kids growing up now. because the fact that social media was just like – Instagram was brand, brand new in high school. Now the social media is crazy. So I feel so for the kids that have to grow up with social media as the main, gosh, it feels a life source for these people.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And especially because not only is there content that we’re viewing on social media, right, but the fact that social media was used in the sense of the story that you just told, it was used to bring some somebody down, to make somebody feel they should not be existing in the body that they just have just because they have it. Genetics, I don’t know, so many factors make our bodies the way that they are.Yeah, it’s crazy. And you know, that affected – I stopped playing basketball at lunchtime. I stopped because I didn’t want to be stared at, circled, and posted. So I just like, I mean, I just stopped playing and that sucks because that was something I really enjoyed. So interesting that it has that much of an effect on people.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh. For sure, and it makes a lot of sense too. And there are things in my story that I can trace back to, as well, as far as not fully expressing who I was or who I wanted to be, or wearing the things that I wanted to wear because of the comments people were saying about me. And I don’t think people realize, especially kids, I don’t think they understand how much of an impact the things they do or say has sometimes, and I am hopeful that – I mean, it’s two-sided, right? This whole social media climate that is now our norm down to kids that are, what, five, six years old with cell phones? Wild. I don’t know. But even middle school, high school, whatever it is I think that it’s cool on one hand because there is so much good content out there, right? And some of these kids could, or young people, could see the good side of the internet and the good side of social media and the people that are out there being body positive or body neutral, or talking about eating disorders. I didn’t even understand what an eating disorder was truly until I was older. The educational piece of social media is so lovely, but then at the same time, it’s so scary, like you were saying. I worry too about the young people too because it’s like, god, there’s so much opportunity there for, for negative impact.Destiny Allen: Yeah. There’s just so much pressure to look good on your Instagram, and I think that’s taking away from being present, but it also puts the pressure on these young kids to be somebody and edit and make sure that they look good for, I don’t know, the kids that they’re surrounded by. It’s just sad.Megan Gill: I agree.Destiny Allen: Middle school is the worst year of everyone’s life. I feel everyone’s growing into puberty, but they’re also being so hateful and horrible to each other. And then we all have this trauma that sticks with us from these years.Megan Gill: It’s so true.Destiny Allen: It always has to do with our bodies. That’s why I love – I’m so proud of you for doing this platform because this is. This is good for the kids that are struggling, if they stumble upon your podcast, to be able to listen to this and feel like, “Okay, yes, I have a beautiful body and I need to love myself.” It’s a hard thing to do, but these are the types of things that are tools for us to feel good.Megan Gill: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. That is part of the impetus of doing this. And I think it’s tough sometimes because when we’re younger, we don’t really understand it. Or at least I didn’t understand it or understand radical acceptance of this is the one beautiful body I get no matter what happens to it, she’s the only one I got, and it’s so much more peaceful to pour love into her than to talk shit to her. And I think that part of the puzzle is maybe more difficult for young people to understand, but young people are also fucking smart. So who am I to say that the more we get different people’s take on body image out there, or people in different sized bodies talking about body neutrality or how they’ve worked really hard to come to a place of acceptance and ultimately, whether it’s neutrality or love or whatever, your relationship to your body is this healthy place in terms of how they view their bodies and how they exist in their bodies and how they treat them. Yeah, I think that we could start to get these kids on track sooner. It took me so long to even kind of recognize what the hell was going on, right?Destiny Allen: Right.Megan Gill: But also, I did grow up in the age of social media, so MySpace was big in middle school. Facebook was big halfway through my high school career. And then it was still like, you know, up and coming when I was in college. So that’s interesting too because I’m like, well maybe there just wasn’t enough education around me or around like, you know, my generation and then your generation and now it’s just an inundation of TikTok, Instagram education everywhere. Oh gosh. I don’t know. It is terrifying. But ultimately I have to try to see the good in it and just hope and believe that, I mean, not just me, obviously. It would be incredible to have an impact on as many people as we possibly can here with this project, but I just know that a bunch of influencers are out there also.Destiny Allen: Maybe that is – yeah. I mean, see both ways, but I think naturally it took me forever too to realize, “Oh, I just need to lift myself. I gotta stop putting myself down.” It puts you in a depression hole, you’re just bashing yourself constantly and that’s not good for your body. You’re not feeding it at all. It’s quite the opposite.So though I still have my insecurities, I love her so much more now. Okay, this is my body. She does amazing things. I am okay. I need to just sit with that. It takes a lot of work though. That needs to be talked about, how much work it is to shift the mind to go from negative to positive. It’s hard. But it’s possible. And I think that – yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what my tools would be to get there, because I think bridal really helped me in some ways, being surrounded by women talking about their bodies every day. I think me feeding other brides and making them feel good in their own bodies somehow shifted me to make me feel good in my body. Oh, you’re so cute.Megan Gill: That’s extremely impactful. Truly, it’s almost like – because I have an understanding of what you mean. When you’re put face to face with it and you’re forced to challenge the way you are thinking and then also challenge the way that people around you are thinking, you’re forced to see another way.Destiny Allen: Yeah, I’m like I can’t feed these brides this advice and not follow it myself, because then it wouldn’t be genuine. I think it flipped a switch in me and I think I’ve been feeling it way more lately in what I’m saying.Megan Gill: It’s so cool because I also don’t think that we talk enough about, obviously, all the different jobs that are out there and all the various ways that different career paths can have such an impact. And I obviously knew I was having this conversation with you, but talking about this more in depth is just so beautiful and lovely. Because a lot of people that come into contact with you probably don’t even know the ways that they’re being impacted, maybe they do, or maybe they’re just not expecting it, but it’s like, oh god, that’s so, so important, and I’m so glad that you’ve just flipped the script for yourself, put in the work to flip it for yourself so that you can show up for the people that you’re supporting in this way.Destiny Allen: Yeah. It’s such a beautiful thing and sometimes they know, because I’ll cry with them, sometimes. It’s rare because I’ve been in bridal for so long, so I see tears a lot. But sometimes it’ll send goosebumps up my body and I’ll just tear up with them. It’s also rare for brides to cry nowadays, but a lot of times they, a lot of times they don’t, but sometimes they do. And it’s very powerful when they do because the entire group will cry with them.Megan Gill: Oh my god.Destiny Allen: And me too. Sometimes I will cry with them, and it means a lot when it does happen. If you see any tears coming from your eyes, it touched me in a different way, which I love. And I love when I get a queer bride because I never get queer brides. And I think that’s what’s so special about the work I do at LOHO, because LOHO stands for a League Of Her Own. I resonate with that because I’m very edgy and covered in tattoos and I’m in a throuple and I’m different. And I love when I get a queer bride that comes in. because I’m like, “I’m gay too!”Megan Gill: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.Destiny Allen: “I can relate to you!” Let’s start out with that because then it makes them feel comfortable immediately. And instead of feeling shy and being like, “Oh my fiance, she,” and I’m like, “Me too!”Megan Gill: “I get it!” Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh.Destiny Allen: I know, you know, if I get engaged I’m probably going to be nervous to go shopping at different places because there’s still a tradition behind it, unfortunately.Megan Gill: And I can imagine being faced with that initial judgment because you also just don’t know who you’re dealing with anywhere, really, right? So what a lovely surprise for the queer brides to walk in and for you to be the one helping them find what they’re gonna wear on their special day.Destiny Allen: Yeah, it’s the best.Megan Gill: It’s incredible.Destiny Allen: Those are the ones that really stick with me because I don’t get a lot of them at all. It’s gotta be one out of a hundred. I don’t get a lot.Megan Gill: Really? Oh my gosh!Destiny Allen: I don’t think queer people get married often. I think there’s just, there’s so much more behind that. But it just warms my heart when I get two fiances in my shop that are shopping together, and are the ones that pull tears outta my eyes for sure.Megan Gill: Yeah.Destiny Allen: Yeah. But that’s also my goal in bridal is to have my own shop and have more of a comfortable space for queer people as well. I wanna have a section for bridal suits.Megan Gill: Yes!Destiny Allen: And I want to have a section for the edgier brides. And of course I’ll probably have some classic looks too, because I wanna make sure I have a good mix of everything. But I think we need a spot for bridal suits, and I think that is my overall goal is to provide that and just a space to feel people can be themselves. That’s huge.Megan Gill: Insanely huge for them to show up and know that they are going to be met with kindness and respect, right? These baseline things that you would hope would be offered everywhere, but I am not sure are. Oh my god. I think that that is so needed and so important and exactly where I can see you heading, and I’m so excited for you and so excited for all of the people that one day you are going to be able to show up for.I was also thinking, as we started this conversation I was like, oh, their wedding dress. And it’s not always necessarily a wedding dress that people are choosing to wear on their wedding day.Destiny Allen: Yeah.Megan Gill: It’s also exciting that we’re – you know, whether you’re queer or not, no generalizations – moving away from maybe a more traditional garment, that people are being able to express themselves.Destiny Allen: Exactly. And my doors are gonna be open for all people, non-binary, gay, queer, lesbian, everybody, straight people, of course, are welcome into my shop. I feel I’m a person that is – you know, I’m a very genuine, down to earth person, but on the outside I’m covered in tattoos. I have an edge to me. So sometimes I feel like I don’t have a place, you know, in certain environments that I’m not receiving judgment. So I wanna make sure that I’m that place for brides, grooms, whatever, to just feel good and they’re not scared to come into my shop. That’s a very normal thing for brides to feel very scared and nervous to come shopping. So I think I just, yeah, I don’t know. I wanna bring that warmth. It’s gonna take a while, but I’ll get there one day.Megan Gill: You will absolutely get there. And even just thinking of how you were mentioning that you present more of an edgy appearance to people who maybe don’t know you, and when people think about, you know, brides, they think white, lacy, floral, very, for lack of a better term, feminine, very girly, feminine vibes. And how maybe there are some brides out there that want an edgier look or an edgier dress or an edgy pants suit. And why is that not more widely normalized, you know?Destiny Allen: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s why I appreciate LOHO so much. Christy brings in the fashion and the edge. Such an inspiration because this is the only shop that I’ve worked at that I felt I could feel myself. I’ve been in bridal for so long and, you know, I’ve bounced around different shops, and a lot of the other shops are very traditional and girly, and I’ve felt the pressure to wear dresses skirts. I love that the owner is just like, wear what makes you feel comfortable and who you are. She’s not pressuring me to wear a dress.For example, my last shop, I think I had an event to go to for the bridal shop, and I was like, “Oh, I need to find something to wear. I don’t feel comfortable wearing a dress. I think I’ll have to look for a pants suit.” And the owner of the shop was like, “It wouldn’t kill you to wear a dress. You work in bridal.” And I was all, “Excuse me?” I was so thrown off. I didn’t even go to the event. I was like, you won’t have my support at this event because you’re not supporting me and who I am.Megan Gill: Yeah.Destiny Allen: And I think that’s what I was looking for when I found LOHO. I was like, oh, thank god.Megan Gill: Thank god.Destiny Allen: I can wear a suit and tie to work. I feel like, you know, I can kind of pull in my masculine energy too, and she appreciates that and thinks it’s cool that I’m bringing in my own fashion, which I’m like, okay. This is where I’m meant to be.Megan Gill: Yeah, I fucking love that. I think it’s super important because, hello, fashion, expression, it’s so individualized and it’s so up to each individual person how they want to express themselves and the clothes that they want to wear and feel good in. And it’s so counterintuitive to think that working in this industry that preaches that, but to then be like, “Oh, well you need to wear a dress,” if that’s not something that you vibe with, it’s just not, not it. That’s not the vibe. What are we doing here?Destiny Allen: No. A lot of judgment coming from all sides too because I would keep getting tattoos and she’d be like, “Oh, another one?” I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna keep covering myself too. It’s gonna keep going this is just it, girl. I’m gonna be covered in tattoos. It’s just not the typical stylist look because I think it throws a lot of people off. That’s kind of why I love doing this too. because I’m not, I am not the typical bridal stylist that’s all proper and a little dress. I am a little different and I appreciate that.Megan Gill: I love that. Okay, well one day, one day when I am engaged…Destiny Allen: You will come to me and I will be there for you.Megan Gill: Exactly. Maybe by that point you’ll have your own shop!Destiny Allen: I will!Megan Gill: I can’t wait because I’m like, yeah, I can imagine the nerves. I would feel I would wanna trust the person that’s helping me to find this, A of all, very expensive, B of all, very important, C of all, garment that I’m going to be wearing on one of the most important days of my life. I feel there has to be a lot of trust there, and especially in a city Los Angeles, I know I would be extra on my guard. And looking for someone that, you know, someone who is someone who is kind and open to hearing me out and isn’t just gonna push certain things on me.Destiny Allen: Right, yeah.Megan Gill: Or isn’t gonna push a weird body image narrative on me, because I’m also curious to know how many women that have shopped around for dresses have experienced that. I don’t know if that’s a thing. I don’t know if it’s happening, but I would imagine that it possibly is.Destiny Allen: I think it is. Yeah, I hear it a lot. And it’s crazy. People will come to me and just be like, “Oh my gosh, you were amazing thank you.” And I’m like, I feel I am just doing what I’m supposed to do. It feels crazy that their experience at other shops were so horrible, because this is a special moment for brides. They’re finding their wedding dress. I think the person helping you should be just as excited. It’s so bizarre when I hear horror stories coming from other places. because I’m like, “Really? I’m so sorry. That is awful.” But that’s what I’m here for. And I’m here to pull dresses in for brides because. Most of the time, this isn’t something they try on every day to know what fits right. So I’m here to pull in the wild cards and I love finding that wild card that the bride is like, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea that this is the direction I would go in!” It’s crazy.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, this is also another interesting thing. I am thinking this whole concept of flattery, right? And certain body types that think certain silhouettes are more flattering or less flattering. Are there ever times where you maybe present a bride with a silhouette that she didn’t think she would feel good in and it ends up being the one?Destiny Allen: All the time. I think that’s something that brings me so much joy too, because they’re able to pick five gallons to try on before they come in, off the website. Most of the time it’s not gonna be in those five that are the one because they don’t know. They don’t know. They haven’t tried on wedding dresses, like I said, so they don’t know the different shapes and details and all the things.So my favorite thing is when I pull in the dress. I always say, they whisper to me the dresses. I’m always like, they whisper at me. I’m like, they pull me in and when I pull it in and they try it on, it’s so fun to see them light up, compared to all the other dresses they’ve tried, there’s just a different glow that brides have when they put on their dress. It’s incredible.Megan Gill: Another round of chills coming right up.Destiny Allen: I’m always like, it’s like dating people because there’s so many beautiful people in the world, but it needs to feel right. It’s based on a feeling that you have in the dress, and that is about your confidence. And just see when you envision your wedding day, can you envision yourself in this gown? And it just brings all kinds of emotions with it.Megan Gill: Ooh, I think that’s huge. The fact that you are saying it’s about how you feel and it’s a feeling. Because I think so much of body image and clothes – I talk about this with one of my girlfriends all the time about how I’m just trying to wear clothes that I feel good in. Yeah, sure, I wanna like what I see when I look in the mirror, but do I feel good in it? Like with a wedding dress, I would wanna feel good, so good in that dress that I could move around in it, I could dance around in it, I could do all of the things that I wanna do on my wedding day comfortably.Destiny Allen: Mm-hmm. Yes.Megan Gill: And not kill myself over it, right?Destiny Allen: Yeah. Yeah, it’s beyond, and I think that’s the hard part. Social media brings in a whole nother thing with bridal shopping because you get lost in all of the TikToks of the brides posting all the dresses they didn’t choose. So they feel they need to hit a hundred shops.It’s not a logical decision. It’s not based on logic. So I think I have to kind of guide brides through that to be like, “Hey, I’ve noticed in this dress that you’re pointing out the straps, the waistline, the fabric, but in this dress, you didn’t point out anything, you just said, I love it. It was just based on a feeling. You’re not picking pieces apart on it. You’re like, I love this dress. And it was an immediate reaction.”So I think it’s nice for me to be able to watch body language. That’s kind of what I’m also there for is to watch their body language and then tell them how they’re feeling because sometimes they can’t do it for themselves. It’s very hard. I have to be like, “This is actually what you’re feeling and thinking, and I need to point that out to you,” because it’s also what I’m, what I’m here for.Megan Gill: That’s so cool. It makes so much sense, you are the reflector for them because also it’s so hard making these big decisions on our own. Seems so difficult and sometimes overwhelming. So to have a trusted source there that intuitively has worked with so many women now at this point, and just you understand these little pieces of what goes on and how it goes, that is so beautiful and so cool.Destiny Allen: It’s so fun. It’s such a game to me, it’s a psychological game where you have to figure out what will make them feel the most beautiful, and yeah, it’s a different journey each appointment, which I love having. You just don’t know what you’re walking into. It’s so much fun not knowing and not having the same thing over and over and over. It’s very different.Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s so cool. And I’m just thinking how many different lives you get to impact too. Oh, they’re so lucky to have you! I feel we talked about an array of incredible things. But my last question for you is I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are. They can be physical; they can be non-physical. It can be a combination of both. Just kind of whatever comes top of mind for you.Destiny Allen: Oh my gosh, that’s such a cute question. Okay. Well, I love – I feel this is gonna sound a little silly, but I love my arm of tattoos.Megan Gill: Not silly.Destiny Allen: I only have one of them right now. My other one will be filled eventually. But I love showing off my sleeve of tattoos. It is probably my favorite thing. Yeah, I feel that’s probably my absolute fave. I think that was my automatic response. I got this beautiful artwork on me, and I love to show it off, and it also helps me not feel so insecure about how thin I am, naturally thin. But also I forget about my insecurities when I am covered in tattoos, which is kind of amazing. So that’s probably one of my coping mechanisms is tattoos.Megan Gill: Because you’re able to add art and make something that people maybe tried to convince you was not good or worthy or beautiful, so sadly, and you get to make it you and a reflection of your expression too.Destiny Allen: Yeah, I like that. Definitely. I think it’s funny because our bodies are already art pieces, but I like to add more art onto my art piece.Megan Gill: I love that. I love that! Yeah. And just the expression piece of it too, the extra creative piece of it, I think is so lovely.Destiny Allen: Yeah. I love that.Megan Gill: Yeah. Well, thanks Destiny. Thanks for having this conversation with me. It was really lovely!Destiny Allen: Thank you!Megan Gill: Of course!“ I think naturally it took me forever too to like realize, “Oh, I need to lift myself. I gotta stop putting myself down.” It puts you in a depression hole, like you’re just bashing yourself constantly, and that’s not good for your body. You’re not feeding it at all. It’s quite the opposite. So I still have my insecurities. I love her so much more now. “Okay, this is my body. She does amazing things. I am okay. I need to just sit with that.” It’s a lot of work though that needs to be talked about, how much work it is to shift the mind to go from negative to positive. It’s hard, but it’s possible. I think bridal really helped me in some ways, surrounded by women talking about their bodies every day. I think me feeding other brides and making them feel good in their own bodies somehow shifted me to make me feel good in my body.”- Destiny AllenWith nearly a decade of experience as a bridal stylist, I’ve dedicated my career to helping brides feel beautiful, confident, and completely themselves. As an edgier queer person, I want to be that safe place for brides that don’t feel seen. At LOHO Bride—an unconventional haven for the non-traditional bride—I bring my love of fashion and my deep belief in body positivity to every appointment. I’m passionate about creating a space where every bride feels comfortable in her own skin and celebrated for who she is.If anyone would like to schedule an appointment with me, they can reach me at [email protected] or they can schedule on the website and request me: Lohobride.com.Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Liz J to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Liz and I were a part of the same university program, so we’ve known each other for quite some time now. I was so excited to bring Liz in for a conversation about body image.Liz pulled back the curtain on being raised in a musical theatre world and discussed how the beauty and body standards of Broadway impacted her as a teen and into adulthood. She talks about her relationship to dance, body modifications, and bodily agency. This was such an impactful conversation for me to be a part of, and I cannot wait for you to hear it!In our conversation, we discuss…* When Liz first started using the phrase “A Broadway Body”* Richard Simmons Tapes - seeing people in different sizes of bodies dancing for fun* The impact of the wild ideologies preached to us in musical theatre* Pursuing what body modifications work for you and respecting others’ bodily agency* Our thoughts on plastic surgery, aging, body modifications* Art about the beauty standards, overconsumption, body image, and moreResources Liz speaks on in our conversation:* Books: * Girl on Girl* The Manicurist’s Daughter* Films:* The Substance* Dumplings* Helter Skelter* Death Becomes Her“ I’m thinking about just the experience of the contrast of being a high schooler with a BFA problems Twitter account to then being a college student getting a BFA, I guess I don’t necessarily want to rehash all the wild feedback that a lot of us got in our program, but a lot of us were getting wild feedback that reinforced these ideas that you need to look a certain way to perform and you need to look a certain way to be even worthy of being seen on stage. I didn’t realize that I was thinking about things in those terms until after college.”- Liz JMegan Gill: Hi, Liz!Liz J: Hey, Megan!Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you’re here today and that we get to chat!Liz J: Oh, I’m so excited to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me!Megan Gill: Absolutely! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?Liz J: Sure, so I’m Liz J. So Megan and I went to college together. We were in the musical theater world.Megan Gill: We were.Liz J: So I have that background and I still very much consider myself a creative person and do a lot of creative work, but I’m not really doing it for money. And I kind of like that setup right now. I have a normal-person job working at a law firm. So I’m mostly making trainings for new attorneys, and it’s a really great job in a lot of ways. And I still am able to be creative.For example, I’m working on a training right now that I get to design puppets for it. That’s crazy. In what world are puppets at a law firm. But I have a really cool team that I work with, and I feel they see what I’m interested in and take interest in the things that I’m interested in and are very open-minded about what my role can look like. Yeah, I just am lucky to work with people who are also creative.So, outside job-job, I also do puppetry and I make solo music and I’m in a choir and I make visual art and I write, and I wrote a musical with one of my best friends. Yeah.Megan Gill: Whoa. Tell me more if you can.Liz J: I mean it’s a really silly and campy musical, and we wrote the first draft in 2019, which is kind of wild to say because that is now a long time ago. But yeah, we had performance dates set for 2020, and then 2020 happened. So obviously we had to take a step back. And yeah, we weren’t sure when it would be a good time to do an in-person show again. So we kind of put it aside for a while. And then last year we brought it back up and we started working on it again, and we started working on it with Garrett Welch he’s helping us arrange the music, so…Megan Gill: Cool.Liz J: Hopefully gonna be producing it soon. It’s been a long journey, but that’s okay.Megan Gill: Totally okay. This is so exciting, and I’m so excited to hear that you’ve stuck with it this long.Liz J: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s not been consistent this whole time. we’ve kind of put it to the side for good chunks of time, but I think that’s also been good for it, you know? We can live life, do other creative projects, and then we kept wanting to revisit it, which I think says something the fact that we wanted to complete this project.Megan Gill: Yeah. Agreed. I think that’s beautiful and lovely. It’s had time to breathe. It’s ready.Liz J: Yeah, word. Exactly.Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay, cool. I love that. Thanks for sharing all of that stuff. So yeah, we had crossover years at the same college program together. We weren’t in the same year, but whatever. It doesn’t matter because we were still in a lot of the same classes and we were still performing together and in dance together and probably even in scene study at some point. Yeah.Liz J: Shows, yeah.Megan Gill: Yes. Shows together, all of that good stuff. So that’s how we met. That’s our origin story. And I think that we met at this time where I was in a very different place in terms of relationship to my body. So I’m curious to hear a bit of your body image story and how your evolution as an actor and a creative and just a human being in general has influenced that.Liz J: Yeah, so I mean, like I think a lot of young performers, I got bit by the bug early and was really, really passionate about it and really striving, I guess might be the word. I basically from the first time I did a musical in middle school, I just really wanted to do whatever it took to keep doing that. Let’s see. I’m trying to think how exactly to really phrase this.I really wanted to pursue musical theater really hard, and when I was in high school, I was in a bunch of dance classes and I felt I was kind of playing catch-up because I hadn’t been dancing my entire life. And I think a lot of girls who were raised in the nineties, got a lot of wild feedback about what it meant to – as you’re growing up, what you should look like and what kind of body you’re taught is desirable. So that’s the air we’re breathing, at that time. It was very much a present – it was just incredibly on my mind throughout high school and into college. Thinking about my body is part of this package.It’s kind of stunning thinking about myself being a teenager, having these thoughts like, “Ooh, I am something to market.” But it really – the teachers that I listened to, their messaging really stuck with me that I was just very much thinking of myself as a commodity from this tender age.And yeah, when I got to college, it was a lot of also similar messaging. Megan, I’m honestly, I’m thinking about just wild, wild shit that I thought in high school because I’m like it really was – I don’t wanna get on here and trauma dump. That’s not it. I’m not – I don’t wanna be like, “Here are all these crazy things that were said,” but I do wanna demonstrate, like, okay, it really was so present.I had all these friends that I was doing theater with in high school, and we had a satirical Twitter account called “BFA Problems.” We were high schoolers. We were not pursuing a BFA, but it was like we had a Twitter account and the icon was a LaDuca and we were just tweeting all this stuff about, about literally saying the phrase “Broadway body” in Tweets as high schoolers, you know? I’m 15, and we were deep in it. And one of my other very good friends who also went on to go to college for musical theater, he and I would do P90X in the morning.Megan Gill: In high school.Liz J: We were 16! That’s wild. You know? And so, it was just on my mind from an early – it’s early. That is an early age. That’s kind of wild thinking about a teenager thinking of – yeah.Megan Gill: Hyper-fixating on bodies in this way. Yeah, agreed.Liz J: Yeah.Megan Gill: Agreed because as kids we’re so active, and a lot of kids play a sport or maybe have an afterschool activity. And so we do these things and there’s a long time of your childhood where you don’t even think twice about how much you’re moving your body. And then there comes a point, and for me it was high school as well, where I realized, “Oh, you mean I can move my body in this certain type of way or this much, and it can then look potentially a different way than it does now? And I don’t what I look like right now because all these messages tell me I shouldn’t look what I look right now.” It’s that moment that forever changes you. And I feel when that moment happens so early, even in high school, when our brains are not developed yet, it really can mess with your psyche. Yeah.Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it was it is pretty stunning. I don’t know. I’m just thinking about how I had a childhood doctor say, “Hey, your kid should play a sport.” And so, I started doing swim team, and that’s also a tough sport.Megan Gill: I’m sorry, I’m smiling because I also did swim team in high school.Liz J: Wait, yes! I remember this!Megan Gill: So I feel you!Liz J: Yeah. I keep saying it was just in the air, but it was I’m thinking about being on swim team and then later going to the dressing room at Hollister and Abercrombie and you know always having an idea of which size you are and wondering – literally talking to friends about what size jean they wear.Megan Gill: This is stuff that’s very fascinating actually, because I think a lot of these high-school conversations that we – I think a lot of us had very, very similar conversations. Or for instance, just the fact that we were both on a swim team where not only are you in a bathing suit in front of spectators, your whole team, but also that’s where I realized, “Oh, I can lift weights and move my body this much and maybe lose some weight because society’s telling me that my body is not good the way it is, and I need to change it.” It’s all of these different facets of what you’re talking about I think are such a universal experience for so many young people.Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m also just thinking about the books that were out at that point, so many diet books, those were definitely in my house. The Atkins Diet. Skinny Bitch, that’s one wild title. But that book, thinking about also just what was considered plus-size back then is wild to me. Bridget Jones, that that’s a plus-size woman allegedly at that time, or Jennifer Hudson when she was on American Idol. There was so much discussion of her body and her weight. And looking at pictures, it’s really stunning. I guess it’s not about what the threshold is for what kind of body is considered a big body, but it’s that was just such an average woman.I just read this book called Girl on Girl, and it talks a lot about how the nineties and the early aughts just really did girls and women dirty, in terms of representation of women and how we talked about bodies, how we talked about femininity, what that is, and yeah, reality TV also, the way that that played a big role in things. It was such a weird time. But I also feel like I’m preaching to the choir, you know? We all were surrounded by this wild media that had these really impossible standards. And no matter which way you swing on the pendulum, whether you’re considered culturally too large or considered too small, there really is no – what’s the fable? It’s too hot, it’s too cold…Megan Gill: Ooh, Goldilocks!Liz J: Yeah, it’s there really is no way to do everything right.Megan Gill: Right, there’s no winning here.Liz J: Yeah, and I feel so much of disordered eating ends up being – this is kind of a disjointed thought, but I’m thinking about just when I think of my relationship with disordered eating, it’s so much out of a desire to control, control my life, control my body. But ultimately it is not something that I have control over and there is no “right” body.Megan Gill: There really isn’t. We are all truly so different and so unique in our own magical ways, but it’s just so devastating, I think, because we, instead of seeing the good in our physical bodies, a lot of times we can only see the bad things. And I know that I, too, for the longest time, and even still listen, one is never healed from this shit, but sometimes it’s really, really hard to see the good. And so, it’s so easy to just harp on the things we dislike and the ways that we think our body is letting us down or is doing us wrong or is betraying us. For instance, if the equation of, “Moving my body this much and eating this way equals I’m gonna look like that,” it’s like, no, it doesn’t work like that because our bodies are different and because, as you age, they evolve even more and grow in various ways.But also I am curious – and it’s to the extent that you feel comfortable and to the extent that you wanna share, of course – how growing up in a time where all of these messages around you and your deep involvement in this BFA problems Twitter with all your theater friends affected you and your relationship to your body. Then, and then two-part question. I always ask the big questions, and my guests are like, “Whoa, there’s a lot going on here.”Liz J: A lot to unpack here, yeah, yeah.Megan Gill: I know! And then how that has evolved kind of as you’ve grown into who you are today, sort of.Liz J: Okay. Yeah, so overall it has gone from this thing that really I was thinking about on a daily basis to something that is just way less present in my mind and is not – I think also just aging has given me an amount of perspective and realizing, “Oh, oh, wow, there really is so much more to be focused on than my appearance or the aesthetics of my body.” Like the function of my body is much more important to me, or just being an adult who works or experiencing grief and gaining appreciation for, “Oh, my body is relatively healthy and functional. I think all of those things have helped with the perspective and kind of decreasing the size of the body-image stuff in my brain.But I think also being able to talk through a bunch of this stuff with people that we went to college with or people who also went to college for performance stuff, that has been so important in kind of deconstructing some of this stuff that really felt, at the time, truth. Really, I think about myself when I was a teenager into my early twenties. While I was in college in this program I was in this cult mindset of, “This is all correct, and if I do want to have success, then my body needs to look a certain way.” And also having a very narrow idea of what success looks like.Megan Gill: Yeah.Liz J: Yeah, I’m thinking about just the experience of the contrast of being a high schooler with a BFA problems Twitter account to then being a college student getting a BFA, I guess I don’t necessarily want to rehash all the wild feedback that a lot of us got in our program, but a lot of us were getting wild feedback that reinforced these ideas that you need to look a certain way to perform and you need to look a certain way to be even worthy of being seen on stage. I didn’t realize that I was thinking about things in those terms until after college.I really love to dance, and I’m not talking about technical dance. I’m not talking about executing choreography. I love to dance. I love to go to a show and just move and have fun and dance, and for the longest time – well, not for the longest time, but basically I think until I was I don’t know, 26 or something – I’m 31 now for context, but, I really was thinking, “Oh, I don’t wanna go out dancing. No one wants to see me dance,” which now feels such a wild way to think about it. When I go out dancing, that is so much for myself, so much for the liberation of being out and also being out with other people and being with people I love and also with strangers and the freedom of moving my body. It is not an aesthetic experience. And when I’m watching other people who are fully dancing with their whole bodies, it’s like I am not looking at them with that kind of evaluating eye that I was looking at myself with when I was younger.But yeah, I very much had these ideas that – I was more flexible with other people, but with myself, I had these very inflexible ideas about what I need to look to be worthy of – how I needed to meet whatever guidelines I had made up for myself to be worthy of performing. Which I just so don’t feel anymore. I think about myself it during those periods of my life and I’m oh honey, you don’t – the world is so much bigger than that, and there are so many more people.Megan Gill: And almost when – just to jump in here, there’s so many things. Oh my gosh, so many things. But it’s when you are embodied and when you are dancing because you fucking love to dance and you just wanna move and vibe, that is when the magic happens and when the connection happens and when – this whole concept of living your life to the fullest, that’s the beauty. That’s when the beauty of that gets to really shine and isn’t that what life is about? And it’s just really heartbreaking to hear you say that. It just shakes me to my core because, sure, it’s this messaging that, well, yeah, you don’t inhabit a body that typically is onstage and therefore we’re gonna teach you this so heavily, teach you this ideal and shove it down your throat and feed you this messaging from when you’re 18 to 22, more or less. And therefore the fact that that gets – I mean, that’s what happens. It gets internalized and tied to our worth as a human being. You did not feel worthy of being onstage or you didn’t think that other people should have to look at you experiencing your joy in this incredible vessel that you have? That is really what pisses me off.Liz J: Yeah. I mean, I’m being glib, but yeah, it’s a bummer. It’s just not right. I am hopeful that things are changing. I do feel a lot of hope when I look at people who are pursuing, I mean, I don’t know. Honestly, I cannot pretend to have my finger on the pulse of theater or musical theater right now. I, in so many ways, feel – I am just not as I used to be really glued to it. And I don’t have my finger on the pulse in that way now, but…Megan Gill: That’s okay. I do not either.Liz J: Yeah, but the flashes I see are like, oh, this is encouraging. It seems the way that people are talking about casting and type, it is changing.Megan Gill: Yes.Liz J: That gives me hope. Also, seeing younger people who are pursuing any kind of creative thing. People are talking about appearance and aesthetics in different ways. I mean, I will also say a caveat to that is I also see a lot of – you see 10 year olds who are Sephora children, you know?So you really see quite a range of approaches too, and also capitalism is always going to be a big old force there that keeps us wanting – tries to encourage us to keep spending money on this pursuit that is kind of fruitless a lot of the time.Yeah, there is a lot that gives me hope about future generations who are pursuing creative paths. And I also, I don’t know, I feel being a teacher in any kind of space, it’s a really kind of sacred occupation. It’s a really important role. And I think, people are getting a little more – I think it’s starting to become more clear, the impact that educators can have or anyone in any kind of authority role where they have say and input. I think people are becoming a little more aware of the words that you say, they matter and they can stick with a person. And so don’t mince your words.Megan Gill: I know that I can very much relate to you in the aging process because I’m now 33 and being 10 years removed from our college program, I have a completely different relationship to my body than I did back then. And it is also interesting because I’m also not pursuing music theater and theater at the moment. I’m not deep in it. And so it’s interesting because we also kind of share that, and I’m like hmm, I wonder how much of an influence that has had on my ability to sit with some of these things and try to heal some of these wounded parts of myself and heal my relationship to my body and try to carry that forward.Liz J: Hearing you talk about just the element of neither of us are deep in it the way that we were when we were 18 to 22, give or take, know I personally had to give myself some space from it. And I really trust on a deep level that I’m always going to be a creative person and always be able to do creative work. I just trust that, and I’m grateful that I do trust that because I don’t know that I had those beliefs when I was, you know, a fresh little teen. I think I was thinking about things in a little more of a binary of you’re pursuing the arts or you’re not. You’re performing professionally or you’re in a cubicle and it looks you’re in the movie Office Space and you hate your life.And it’s actually there are so many nuances there, so many shades of what your work means to you and what the role your work plays – how your work plays into your life, and what you want from a job at that point and how identity gets tied up in it. So much of my identity was tied to being a performer. But it wasn’t tied to being creative.Megan Gill: This is revolutionary because I think you’re touching on an experience that I, myself, also had in my own way, and I can pinpoint it for myself because I always say that, specifically when I was in college and high school and thereafter when I was deep in the thick of my tumultuous relationship to my body, with food and exercise, I was so disconnected from the art and the why I was even doing it in the first place. And now that I have worked to heal so much of my relationship to my body, I am freed up to be creative and to let the creativity that was always inside of me come out. This is so interesting, but it also makes so much sense to me, and I’ve never thought about it like this before.Liz J: Yeah, I mean, in college, don’t get me wrong, I do feel there were a lot of opportunities to be creative and I still am not trying to say that I didn’t have any agency. I did kind of reach a point, a little bit after graduating college where I kind of felt like a puppet. I was kind of like I am saying lines, someone else wrote, I’m being directed by someone else. This is music. Someone else wrote, I’m in a costume someone else designed, the lighting is designed by someone else. I am in a lot of ways executing what other people have designed or written or created. Which is not – I think also I was just not in the greatest of head spaces to where I was all of this equals I’m a puppet. I did feel like, oh, I would to be a little bit – I’d to be maybe more in partnership with the creation process. And I’d to explore what it is I have to say. And I think that also was such a – moving to Chicago from Kansas was such a good thing for me because when I moved to Chicago, I moved here largely thinking, oh, I wanna do improv and sketch comedy. And I say that with a little bit of a shrug because I definitely do not do improv nowadays. But all that stuff is still with me. And I met a lot of my greatest friends and people that I still make stuff with through the comedy kind of world. But it was such a. Refreshing, I guess, adjustment, going from a musical theater program to being in improv and sketch comedy classes where the focus is on what you have to say and how you’re saying it and what you’re making, and I didn’t really feel that in the same way when I was just pursuing performing in musicals. It also felt incredibly foreign to me. I was like you’re asking me what my point of view is? I don’t have one.Megan Gill: Yes, yes. That’s also a piece of the experience for me as well. So interesting. It’s liberating to come into your voice and to find like, yeah, sure. We’re using our voice when we’re saying other people’s words, but when you find your voice as a creative and tying that to who you are as a human and letting the human parts of yourself come out in said expression too, right?Liz J: Yeah. I’m joking about ha, I didn’t have a point of view. And it’s like, well, I did, but I had to kind of dig in there and get a little more secure in myself and start. I had to cook, you know? I had to just grow up a little bit and get a little more secure in myself. And also talking about body stuff, get more comfortable in my own body and like myself more. Are you kidding? it’s very hard to make art if you don’t feel like – instead of saying royal you, I should just say It was hard for me to write anything when I felt very disconnected from myself and had very much been in this trying to please different teachers and these prescribed paths and plans, and it’s liberating but it was also scary to realize, oh, I have a lot more agency than I thought I did.But yeah, also, I really feel like queerness has also helped and changed my relationship with my body. This is another way that Megan and I met, but when I went to college, I promptly got a girlfriend who was friends with Megan. We’re all still pals, rock and roll.Megan Gill: Hey, Kate!Liz J: Yeah, but it was oh, I just – generally speaking, dating women and seeing it’s seeing the parts of my body that I have been insecure about or felt whatever way about, kind of mirrored in another person that I care about and seeing, oh, that’s not a – I still like that about them. Or that’s not gross. That’s part of them. I love that because it’s part of them, it’s not this – I don’t know if that makes sense.Megan Gill: No, that makes total sense.Liz J: Thinking about, “Ooh, my stomach,” or whatever the heck thinking, ugh, this is something I wanna not have. But then it’s seeing that on another person and hearing them say, “I’m insecure about this,” or whatever. It’s like, oh, my god. I’m not even thinking about that.Megan Gill: Yeah. I’m not even looking at that or taking that into account when I’m thinking about why I like you as the person I’m seeing, yeah.Liz J: Yeah. And I also just think queerness, it’s got its own kind of world and ideas about – it’s not playing by the same kind of heterosexual rules of what is deemed attractive. It’s way more expansive than that. I think that also played a big part in me kind of repairing my relationship with my body, renegotiating it, how I feel about it and learning to like different parts of myself.Also, getting tattooed. It might sound trite, but it has been amazing to kind of put other people’s art on my body, and I feel like I’m speaking about agency a lot, getting tattooed, I feel so much agency over my body when I’m deciding if I wanna get a new tattoo and what I want and where, and it feels great to be like I get to customize this weird little this meat suit I’ve got for the rest of my life. I get to design it and I love it. I love my arms. They’re covered in tattoos, and honestly, growing up I felt kind of neutral about my arms, and now I’m like, oh yeah, I’m gonna wear sleeveless stuff all the time. Yeah. So…Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s really lovely. Both of those pieces I think are super important and I’m so glad that you touched on how they have influenced bringing you back into your body. And I love how you said you renegotiated the terms with your body too. That’s such a beautiful phrase. That’s a beautiful way to put it.Liz J: Richard Simmons. Also, shout out Richard Simmons. He was my COVID guy. It felt very nice to be doing grapevines at home. When I was talking about oh until maybe 26, I was not really – these weird ideas about dancing. And then it was like doing Richard Simmons – also seeing all this body diversity in his old tapes. That was huge.Megan Gill: Wait, cool. Were they YouTube or were they physical VHS vibes?Liz J: Yeah, on YouTube, I just fell down this rabbit hole watching old Richard Simmons YouTube videos. I love him. I really do. I mean, okay, I can’t endorse everything. He would still say some weird thing about you know, melting fat or something, and I’d be okay, chill.Megan Gill: Yeah. Can we not?Liz J: But for the most part it was this really body positive cool thing where it’s all these people dancing, and they’re all shapes and sizes, and I think also just seeing people in different bodies dancing and dancing for fun also. Seeing them have pleasure and fun from dancing, that really changed things too.Megan Gill: That’s really, really great and really important as well.Liz J: I will say, this last year I read The Manicurist’s Daughter. It’s a really kind of stunning memoir that this woman writes about her mother. Her mother dies while getting a tummy tuck.Megan Gill: Wow.Liz J: Have you heard of this book?Megan Gill: I have not, but I will be taking note of it.Liz J: So I’ll be frank, especially during these really critical of my body periods of time, I had been like, “Maybe someday I’ll get a tummy tuck.” Anyway, zooming back out, reading this book, the author, she describes in so many ways, her relationship with her body and she’s also kind of trying to piece together based on the time she did spend with her mom, her mom’s relationship with her body, and I just shout out to The Manicurist’s Daughter. And it made me – I don’t want to be eating my words, but I just do not want to pursue – I don’t know. I’m not trying to, yeah, I don’t know. I’m like, “No, fuck no. I’m not ever gonna get a tummy tuck. I don’t want that.” I value my life too much.Megan Gill: Yes to all of that. That’s huge. Yeah. I’m with you. I’m so with you. It’s these things that come up, whether it’s a piece of art or whether it’s just re-relating to the way we’re marketed to, or the beauty industry or whatever it is. And realizing and coming to terms with I don’t want to alter my body in that way. I know I’ve had my own version of that. I’m still pursuing film acting and commercial acting, right, in my own ways. But I’m like I don’t wanna get Botox because everyone’s doing it. And I wanna explore what it’s to have to sit with the discomfort of looking at the lines in my face as I age and working through those feelings. And again, I’m same as you. I don’t want to eat my words or speak too soon, but I really hope that I can stick with this just for the personal growth this, the self-growth that could be in that, that a lot of people wanna run from. And I don’t blame them for wanting to run from these feelings. It’s fucking terrifying.Liz J: Oh, for sure. To be pretty I don’t know, harsh or blunt about it. The world is harder on women who age and show signs of aging, you know? And not just in the entertainment industry, I feel like just culturally, yeah, youth is a currency. I feel it’s a totally natural reaction to try and want to retain as much of that currency as you can.So I grind my teeth, and my dentist suggested I get Masseter Botox, and on my temples. I was straight up grinding through my night guard, okay? And so they were like, “We really recommend this.” So I did it and it was $600 for this. It’s not covered by insurance. And they had said, “You’ll probably need to get it redone in I think they said maybe four to six months.” Because it’s temporary. You have to keep doing this. Eventually it can have the effect of – I don’t know. I feel I’m kind of talking out my ass because I am not an expert on Botox. And this is me relaying this conversation that was over a year ago. But I got the jaw Botox. I got the Botox and the temples from my dentist. And I was also kind of nervous that I would – that this would be the introduction to it, and then it would kind of – that barrier is now taken down and it’s like I feel comfortable doing it wherever. And it did help my teeth grinding my, a little bit, a little bit. But I’ll say, really not enough, truly not enough. And it’s $600 every six months. Those are flights. I don’t know. It is really tough, but it’s I think about – you know, I think spending that money in other ways, that feels like a decision that’s more aligned with how I wanna live right now, you know? I can’t guarantee that’s how I’m always going to feel. And also, you know, I also have a lot of friends who have gotten Botox or different injectables. You could also totally argue that me getting tattooed, that is body modification. And getting filler, that’s another kind of body modification.Megan Gill: Yeah, that’s true. I think it’s whatever works for each individual person, and it’s not about shaming any one person for – which, again, historically with tattoos, I know that there has culturally been a lot of shame wrapped up in them in various social circles and various cultures, yada, yada. But yeah, we also have a lot of work to do as far as not shaming the people who do want to explore those things because it’s not your body, it’s theirs.Liz J: Oh, yeah. I’m also just thinking about some of this stuff can also be very gender-affirming, and I’m absolutely not looking at folks that are doing it to feel more in line with how they want to present. I’m not looking at them thinking, “Ooh, no.” But it’s just I’m thinking about my own relationship with my face and my body.And for me, I guess the choice that feels more in line with – I don’t know, I feel I’m making this a little convoluted, but just trying to say being able to – part of having agency over your body is you get to choose what you do and don’t do to alter it, and it’s something that we all have to – again, I feel I’m preaching to the choir, but it’s just like, yeah, that’s something we all have to figure out for ourselves. And I think the more time I spend with it, the more I’m like, okay, the way that I am going to – I think I want to try and just let this face wrinkle and sag, let it age and I will continue getting tattoos. I don’t know.Megan Gill: Yeah, and that can evolve as you age too, right? It’s coming to terms with that within yourself, but then also coming to terms with that as far as letting other people do them. And then also coming to terms with the fact that this can change and evolve how it may at any point in time. It’s so, so, so nuanced. It’s really lovely and also difficult at times, and so interesting to talk about because it is different for every person, right?Liz J: Yeah, okay, now we’ve got me thinking about film. The last couple years, I’ve really gotten into body horror and especially after watching The Substance.Megan Gill: I have not seen it, but it is on my list and I think I’m just – and horror is a little – I need to watch it, Liz, but I’m scared.Liz J: It’s a lot. It really is a lot. But anyway, I had seen that. And then also recently saw Dumplings directed by Fruit Chan. That was a movie that was made in Hong Kong, kind of a similar premise where she’s approaching middle age, she’s an actress, and she meets this woman who makes these dumplings that have this rejuvenating effect. And you know – yeah, you’re grimacing.Megan Gill: I’m already ill. I’m already ill. It’s giving Sweeney Todd.Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no spoilers, but it’s very similar. Yeah. It’s kind of part of the same genre as The Substance. Helter Skelter is a Japanese movie that I also saw for the first time this year with really similar themes. And Ugly Stepsister, this Norwegian movie.So I’m saying all of these, but I’m also kind of stunned that there aren’t more films that deal with the obsession of plastic surgery and aging and body modification. And I started making a list in Letterboxd of okay, here are all these movies that have to deal with this. And I’m like, all right, we’ve got The Substance, Ugly Stepsister, Death Becomes Her, Helter Skelter, Eyes Without a Face. I also have a lot of movies listed in there that I haven’t seen yet. But I’ve heard that they’re thematically in that kind of world.But the fact that mainstream, big-budget films, kind of dealing with these themes we’re in the dozens, versus you think about how many films are about being like, “Oh, I’m still single in my thirties.” You’ve got so many movies about that. I don’t know. That was just the first thing I thought of. But yeah, I thought it was interesting that we really don’t have a ton of films that tackle this cultural capitalist – just how much money and effort and energy can be put into appearance, I suppose.Megan Gill: Yeah. I’ll co-sign that through and through, because I feel The Substance was the first film I saw widely marketed at the level that it was with the cast that it had.Liz J: Yeah. And as I’m saying this, I’m starting to kind of think, okay, maybe I am generalizing a little too much because I do think there are quite a few films that do deal with like, “Oh, I don’t feel I’m enough appearance-wise.” That is a theme that I see a lot of.Megan Gill: Yes. But let’s call it out at the level that these films you just spoke about are calling it out. So, yeah, totally. There’s nuance there. There’s nuance there.Liz J: I want to see more about the financial aspect, how predatory some of this can be. How consuming it can be. Consuming, consumption, just over-consumption. I wanna see more about that.Megan Gill: Yes, absolutely. I’m with you on that. Okay. I have a final question for you before we wrap up, it’s funny because you kind of touched on it a little bit earlier, but I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things are about your body. They can be physical, non-physical, both physical and non-physical. Totally up to you, however you want to answer that.Liz J: Well, yeah, I mean, I did already refer to all my tattoos. I really do love all my tattoos, and I love that I get to continue getting tattoos. I also got the supplies to start giving myself tattoos. I gave myself a really terrible stick and poke last year.Megan Gill: I am obsessed with this.Liz J: We’re gonna very slowly evolve there. But tattoos and also just I like that I feel very comfortable and grounded in my body these days. And I love that I can use it to bike. I’ve gotten into biking this year, and it’s so great to be able to bike from home from work. Now I’m into the, the music festivals, the dancingMegan Gill: I love it.Liz J: I’m so pleased with myself that I can dance comfortably and that I feel comfortable doing that and that I dance hard and I have fun dancing. I love that my body allows me to do that. And I love that my body houses everything. It houses my brain, it houses my voice, and to sing. That’s what allows me to do that. So I think I have a lot more gratitude for my body nowadays.Megan Gill: That’s really, really beautiful and so special, and just the imagery of the fact that it houses your brain and your voice and your heart and everything about who you are and the things that you do. That made me emotional. That was lovely. Thank you for sharing that, Liz.Liz J: Well, thanks for asking and thanks for having me!Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you for having this conversation with me!“ This is kind of a disjointed thought, but I’m thinking about just when I think of my relationship with disordered eating, it’s so much out of, you know, a desire to control - control my life, control my body. But ultimately, it is not something that I have control over, and there is no ‘right’ body.”- Liz JLiz is an artist, writer, and performer based in Chicago, IL. She grew up in Wichita, Kansas as a little musical theater freak, and has since branched out into puppetry, visual art, non-musical-theater-music, and has also co-written a musical that she’ll (hopefully!) co-produce in 2026.Follow Liz on Instagram!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow actor, writer, producer, Christine Dickinson, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Christine is an actor, a writer, and a producer, and I met in our acting class at Crash Acting a few years ago. She very recently debuted her one-woman play “Mother” in Los Angeles, CA, and the show was phenomenal. We’d had this conversation before I saw it, and I will say that many topics of convo that Christine brought to the fore were beautifully touched on in her show.In our conversation, we discuss…* Breaking the generational trauma cycle (with body image and more broadly)* The debut of her one-woman, one-act show “Mother” and what inspired her to write the play* How rehearsing her play brought her body image story front and center* The conscious permission it takes to write about topics we don’t necessarily feel “qualified enough” to speak on* The comment her play makes about the impacts of social media on today’s culture* Navigating our feelings around our bodies* Her body image story - from being praised for being thin and invalidated in her feelings about her body, to uncovering a body image story through the rehearsal of her playChristine so openly shared her body image story with me, and her vulnerability to speak on these topics she’s just recently started to face head on is beautiful. Her thoughts on generational trauma and the impacts of social media on our individual body image are powerful, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“I think a lot of comparison is what comes up in the play, kind of in a subtle way. But there are a lot of different videos in the video sequences that you see that indicate that my character is doing girlhood or womanhood incorrectly. So you have one person saying, “Hey, if your body is larger, that’s bad, and you should fix that.” And then another person, “If your body is smaller, that’s also bad and you should fix that.” And then, “Oh, you should be dainty and feminine and always keep a groomed appearance.” And then like, “No, fuck that!” And then, you know, all of these different, you know, expectations about what we should and shouldn’t use our bodies for. And yeah, then there’s, you know, the whole topic of what happens to your body during pregnancy. That’s something that’s explored in one of the video series as well.”- Christine DickinsonMegan Gill: Hi, Christine! I’m so excited to talk with you, and I’m just so glad that you’re here.Christine Dickinson: Hi! Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited. I’m a big fan. I’m a big Megan fan.Megan Gill: Hey, I’m a big fan of you! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and introducing your work in the world?Christine Dickinson: Yes, I’m Christine Dickinson and I am an actor, playwright, and new producer. And right now, I am producing my first original work called Mother, which will be a workshop production of my one-woman show.Megan Gill: Which is just so exciting because, at the time of recording this, you are premiering this piece to the world in just a couple of days!Christine Dickinson: Yep. Yep!Megan Gill: How do you feel?Christine Dickinson: I think, more than anything, excited but also terrified. So I would say it’s probably equal parts both. This has been something that’s been marinating for me for a couple of years. A few years ago, I wanted to write a screenplay of this kind of a thing, and now it’s kind of evolved into a play and, you know, that’s a little bit more my realm anyway than film. So I’m definitely excited to share the story in a medium that I have been working in for so long. But scary because I’ve never really put my own voice out there like this before. So I would say it’s a little bit of both.Megan Gill: Oof, I just got chills. That is so, so totally fair. Okay, so the premise of your story is, “In this comedy thriller play, a daughter faces the cost of being a woman in a modern world where her mother isn’t answering her calls.”Christine Dickinson: Yes.Megan Gill: Can you share a bit more about the premise in the story and kind of these themes of what it is to be a young woman today and how those themes are woven into the piece?Christine Dickinson: Yeah, absolutely. So the play opens when a daughter, my character, comes in from a long-haul flight, and the first call is, you know, just checking in with the mom like, “Hey, I got home,” that kind of thing. And it becomes pretty clear that something happened during the last moments that we saw each other, because I guess the idea is that we live on opposite sides of the country, and I no longer live near my mom. So the phone is really the only way that we can connect. So there’s this idea that something happened, and we’re not quite sure what happened, but there was some sort of tension between daughter and mother that was unresolved before the daughter left to get on a plane to go back home.So that’s where we start. And throughout the play, without giving too much of it away, we start to see this person’s life shake out kind of maybe how you would imagine it to with a lack of guidance or support. And many of the troubles, again, without getting too much into it, because it’s only 40 minutes. So I’m like, there’s not a ton that I could really tell about the plot that’s not a total spoiler.Megan Gill: Totally. No spoiler alerts!Christine Dickinson: I’m like, I just tell you the whole thing right now. “In scene six, this happens.”Megan Gill: I’m like, “No, I’m seeing the play this weekend!” And I’m so excited. I cannot wait!Christine Dickinson: Yes. Okay. I won’t spoil it for you. But, you know, it’s everything to do with the things that we have to face, particularly as women in a modern world, everything from pressures of how we look, pressures of how we are coming off (especially to people who have authority over us like employers), pressures of being equal parts girl boss and equal parts dainty, feminine. And then we kind of dive into this whole world of like, whoa, okay, these are modern lenses on these issues, but these are really issues that have existed for centuries.So we kind of go back and look at some ancestral stuff a little bit and some things that – like what happens when we experience traumatic things and we leave those traumatic things unchecked and we continue to reproduce, especially when it’s a woman giving birth to a daughter, and then she has a daughter, and then she has a daughter. And how those cycles kind of don’t break themselves unless somebody breaks it.Megan Gill: That is such an important thing to be talking about and something that I very much think our generation is all about looking at and uncovering and trying to get to the bottom of. So I just think it’s really beautiful and also quite relevant to probably what many women are unpacking today.Christine Dickinson: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. What’s really interesting about writing this play was that I think we had actually had a conversation years ago because, when I saw your short, A Broadway Body, the screening of that, I felt really inspired. And I was like, “Oh, I’m writing something that’s kind of touching on something similar to this.” And I think we had a conversation about that because I was so inspired. I was like, “How did you sit down and write this?” I kind of felt like I abandoned that project for a while, but then I sat down, I think it was February, and I was, like, “Ooh, I’m really kind of feeling something right now.” And so, I just sat down without thinking of it being a play or anything. I think I just wrote a conversation or a one-ended phone conversation, like a voicemail, like so much of this play is a voicemail series. So I think I just wrote one. From there I was like, “Oh, this is kind of setting something off in me a little bit.” And then I stepped away from it for I think a couple weeks, and then I went back to it and I read it and I was like, “Oh, no, no, no. Something else happens after this.” And it just kind of one thing led to the next, to the next.I just, over the course of maybe two months, kept walking away and then coming back, and then it was just so abundantly clear what happens next in this person’s story. And I didn’t know how this play was going to end until I sat down and I wrote the final scene. And I think my fiancé, who was literally in the room. He came in, in the middle of me writing it, and he was like, “Hey, how was your –?” And I was like, “No. No, no, no. Hold on, hold on!”Megan Gill: “Zip it! Not now!”Christine Dickinson: Hold on one sec. Hold one second. And then da, da, da da, last line of the play. “Okay. Yes, it was fine. Um, take five and I’m gonna read you this.” So yeah, it just – like, I had no idea some elements of it, that were coming in, until literally I was writing it. It was as if something was kind of moving. It sounds silly when I say it, but it’s like something else was moving through me that was not my own narrative anymore, even though it felt like it started off that way.And even in the rehearsal of it, the reading of it, all of this, we had a dress rehearsal on Sunday, and even in that I’m like, “Oh, there are things that I’m discovering in this text that I was not aware that I was putting into it.” Yeah, so it’s been a really strange experience. So bizarre for me and foreign but cool.Megan Gill: Wow, that’s so cool and so magical. And how beautiful that you literally produced these words and these words came out of you, and yet you’re still finding so much in them and so much that you are discovering and didn’t know was coming out of you at the time. Are you familiar with Elizabeth Gilbert’s work?Christine Dickinson: Not super.Megan Gill: Okay. She wrote this book called Big Magic. When I was moving out to LA, I read it and I was obsessed with this concept because it had happened to me one time before, and it’s this concept of inspiration is flying out there, right? And then inspiration hits you, and either you take it right then and there and you alchemize it into art or you kinda let it pass by you and it’ll go to somebody else. And this feels like a bit of a Big Magic moment because it’s so outside of yourself, but also it’s so beautiful to hear how you were just inspired and hit by this thing that you couldn’t say no to that helped you produce this piece. Anyways, I just think it’s so cool.Christine Dickinson: Yeah. That is really interesting and cool to hear that this is a thing that – because, in a way, it does kind of feel that. And I think there have been moments of that for me before in glimmers, but it’s always kind of been, “Ugh, yeah. But it would be stupid if I did it.” Like, “Yeah, other people can do this, but like, I don’t think my narrative needs to be heard or my narrative isn’t really quite ready to be heard or like, who am I to really speak on something like ancestral trauma, and who am I to speak on this thing?” And there would be things that I was about to write, and I was like, “Ugh, no. I don’t wanna be the one to say that because I don’t feel qualified to speak on that.” But then I would be like, “No, I’m gonna do it anyway.”So it was a lot of conscious permission that I had to give myself. And I think – and I brought this up in class too, when we were talking about the play and the creation of it is that I’ve been having to give myself, different versions of myself permission throughout the entire creative process of this, where I feel like my actor-self was kind of on my shoulder when I was writing it saying, “It’s okay. You can say that. I will take care of the words for you. When it’s time for them to be heard, I will take care of that and do that due diligence and build the belief that those words deserve in order to not just make it true to you, playwright, Christine, but to make this transformative for other people as well.” And then when the actor in me was really (and continually is) very hard on myself about the performance of it and like, “I don’t know if that was embodied,” or “I don’t know if that was present,” or “I don’t know if that was true,” the playwright in me is like, “It’s okay. I gave you room to discover things in this. It’s okay that you’re not crying during this line that I was crying during when I was writing it. Like, that’s okay.”So it has been this continuous permission that playwright is giving actor and actor is giving playwright. That has been really cool and interesting and, and weird. I never thought that I would feel so different as the actor than I do as a playwright. I feel like we’re different people. I mean, obviously it’s both me. This sounds very odd and silly, but I’m not the same person.Megan Gill: It makes sense! It’s different facets of your vessel, right?Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and I’m a different person than I was in February when I started writing this. And so, there were many moments where I was so hard on myself where I’m like, “I’m not feeling emotionally moved. This is so – these are the words that I wrote. Why am I not feeling moved?” And it’s like you have to experience those as you are right now for that to be in any way accessible to other people as well. So yeah.Megan Gill: That’s really lovely. Thank you for speaking to all of that. I know that when were chatting a bit about this piece, you had mentioned that there were parts of the process where some body image themes were coming up for you. Are these baked into the play, or are these kind of subliminal things that, obviously, just by nature of being a woman growing up in today’s culture, is just a part of our life and was actually probably a part of women’s lives for a long, long – for forever and ever, and we’re just now starting to kind of acknowledge them in a different way? But I’m just curious if that’s something that – when these themes of body image started to either come up to you or hit you or maybe made you question your own relationship to your own body – I know that there’s kind of a lot in that, but if anything is jumping out to you, I would be curious to hear.Christine Dickinson: Yeah, absolutely. So when I was writing this, a majority of the body image stuff kind of came up in the second draft. There are little cameos of other students in the – we have multimedia, so it’s video collage. It’s Instagram reels or TikToks, whatever you want to call ‘em. And we have several of those, and my character is living alone. Her mother’s not speaking to her. So these are really her only form of connection with other people is through these videos. They’re the only other faces that we see on the stage. So, you know, naturally, when we don’t have close relationships and we’re kind of just seeing what other people want us to see, in my experience, it’s been a lot of comparison that will come up from that. Especially these days, social media is being used as a marketing tool and it’s not entirely honest about that. So that is something that’s really touched upon.But I will say my own personal deep-rooted body image stuff didn’t really come up for me until I started rehearsing this. I’ve always – I mean, I feel like every woman, really every person, has their own body image story. But mine didn’t really take a front seat until I started really working on this. And I think it became really abundantly clear some of the things that I had been struggling with and pushing down for a really long time once I started confronting this in my work on this play, in particular.Megan Gill: Wow.Christine Dickinson: Yeah, I think a lot of comparison is what comes up in the play, kind of in a subtle way. But, you know, there are a lot of different videos in the video sequences that you see that indicate that my character is doing girlhood or womanhood incorrectly. So you have one person saying, “Hey, if your body is larger, that’s bad, and you should fix that.” And then another person, “If your body is smaller, that’s also bad and you should fix that.” And then like, “Oh, you should be dainty and feminine and always keep a groomed appearance.” And then like, “No, fuck that!” And then, you know, all of these different, you know, expectations about what we should and shouldn’t use our bodies for.And yeah, then there’s, you know, the whole topic of what happens to your body during pregnancy. That’s something that’s explored in one of the video series as well. We have someone featured as a content creator who is going through some pregnancy struggles in her videos, and then my person watching that from a third-person perspective, empathizing for her but also being jealous of her but also being confused by her. So I would say a lot of the issues, my own personal struggles with body image, it’s crazy to say, but for the first 28, 29 years of my life kind of got pushed down, and I was like, “No, no, no. That’s not – I feel a little negatively about myself, but that’s not front and center. But now I’m like, “Okay, yeah, no, it is.”Megan Gill: Wait, that’s really interesting because – sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.Christine Dickinson: oh no, go ahead.Megan Gill: But this tie between, “Oh, my body image struggles aren’t legit,” is kind of what I am taking from what I hear you saying, you shoving them down, and then you exploring this thought that had come up for you around writing and telling your own stories of, “Oh, well why me? Why my stories? Why?” It’s so interesting that these are both coming to a head at the same time. You deciding to open up and share your heart in this new and very vulnerable way, I’m like, wow, it makes a lot of sense that now is the time that you are giving validation to some of these experiences and feelings and things that maybe you haven’t looked at in this particular way before. And it’s such a – there’s so much nuance in that, I think. I don’t know. I just wanted to point that out because I’m like, “Whoa.” But then also. All of this is happening at the same time. There’s a lot going on here!Christine Dickinson: Yeah. I didn’t even think about that before, how it is kind of happening at the same time. And so, I think it makes sense why I feel a lot of pressure right now. I will say, the play is a little bit of a call out towards very toxic ideologies that are kind of being promoted on social media right now. Yeah, I mean, not explicitly calling anyone in particular out, but sort of calling out certain types of videos, certain messaging, certain tones, some of them very subtle. And the actors that I gave the scripts to, it was really, really cool to see because I had kind of an image in my head when I was writing it, and then I cast, you know, whoever was interested in being cast in it, and I put it out there, and to see these people’s spin on this was so cool because like, no, it’s not what I envisioned all the time. But to see their spin and to see their language and to see them embody that, it’s like, “Oh, okay, these people get it. I’m not screaming into a void. These actors, they’re on the same page as me that this messaging is also bad without making it so in-your-face, preachy this is bad.”So yeah, I’m really excited for people to see the cameos as well because they’re a super talented, amazing bunch who just all jumped right into it and were like, “Yeah, let’s do this!” They took the script, made it their own. I told everybody to kind of ad-lib a little bit, and they all did. So, yeah. But it is definitely a little bit of shade. There’s a little bit of shade in there, and I’m not gonna lie about it.Megan Gill: No, I’m here for it, obviously. I’m obsessed with that. And what a cool experience too for you to have to be like, “Oh, I’m not alone in thinking that this is fucked up or that this isn’t how we should be approaching these conversations.” Like, these actors get it too!” Because also, one of the reasons why I am having these body image conversations is because image is not something that is talked about a lot. It’s a very vulnerable topic, and like you said, we all have a body image story. I believe that as well. And it’s scary to talk about that and sometimes you’re maybe not even in touch with your body image story or things haven’t come to a head for you yet, so what a lovely experience to be like, “Oh, they also get it.”Christine Dickinson: And I hope that people who are seeing it can kind of – it sounds kind of cliché to be like, “I hope people can relate,” but I hope that people can see it and feel a little bit more seen because, like you said, this is not something that we hear people talking about. I think you and I had a conversation maybe a couple months ago or something where I was talking about this thing that you’re doing and, you know, I think one of us said you see people’s likes, right, on social media. And that’s such a big part of this is that you see who likes what. And so, you’re like, “Oh, that makes me sad that this person that I’m close with is liking this thing that is very clearly telling them to change something about themselves.” And you see certain people that kind of shove these very toxic ideologies on people about how you should be or how you should look, and you see people that you know and love following them and it’s like, “Okay, I think that more conversations need to be had about this because this person is saying that you need to change your body in a way that is not sounding like it’s shaming you, but it is because it is telling you that you need to change. I think I saw this ad the other day that was like, “You’re not fat. You just have high cortisol,” pointing to different parts of her body. And I’m like, okay, so these ads that they’re making are more harmful than they were 15 years ago because they’re saying, “I’m not body shaming you. I’m just looking out for your health.” And it’s like, no, you are because my doctor has never said anything about that affecting my health, and you are telling me that I need to change that about myself. So that in and of itself is not ethically good, and the fact that companies and brands are hiding behind that is very, very disturbing.Megan Gill: I absolutely agree, and I’m so glad that you are calling it out and have written about it and are speaking in your own way to this cultural phenomenon that’s going on that is, in a way, just sort of brushed under the rug. And then also just to call back to this ad that you just witnessed, all I can think is, well, here we are demonizing being fat. Like, come on. Have we learned nothing, people? Yeah.Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and also using the phrase, “You’re not fat.” It’s like, “Okay, and if I was?” Also, you don’t know who you’re talking to. So it’s just, so bizarre.Megan Gill: Being fat is not this horribly terrible thing that our culture has made it out to be. It’s literally just a descriptor.Christine Dickinson: Right.Megan Gill: This person is fat. This person is skinny. Those are descriptive words. Fat does not equal bad. Fat does not equal unhealthy. It’s, yeah, all of these different pieces of the conversation that are, like you said, just so subtly okay.Christine Dickinson: Mm-hmm. I did not survive the Tumblr “nothing tastes as good as skinny feels” epidemic just to experience this again in my thirties.Megan Gill: Yeah.Christine Dickinson: I didn’t go through that, which I, objectively at the time, knew was wrong. Going through that and now looking through this as an adult, and especially – I work with teenage girls. I see that they are, like many other teenagers, kind of chronically online. And it’s very disturbing to see that no matter how supportive your family members are, no matter how many supportive adults you have in your life, that as a teenager in 2025, this is what you’re constantly being bombarded with. It’s heartbreaking, and there’s nothing that adults can really say when their favorite influencers, their friends, their favorite celebrities are endorsing these companies that are like, “GLP-1s, GLP-1s, GLP-1s.” It’s like, how do you – I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m kind of at a loss for words thinking about it, to be honest.Megan Gill: No, I hear you. So am I. Because, like you said, how are we still here, for the teenagers today or for the young people today? It’s like we already went through all that shit, and here we are again? And it’s rearing its head and making a comeback in this really odd way masked in health. And everything is online. We can see fucking everything, and it’s impacting everyone in such a different way than it was. And maybe that’s a through line to this concept too is that this has always been a thing. Preaching health and preaching thinness has always been a thing, but for our generation, when we started to come online, where I think it really started to become more of an epidemic – granted, I don’t know. I haven’t done the research into the seventies, eighties, nineties, and our moms and our parents’ generation. But the way that it affected us now, tying into how social media was starting to become a thing when we were young. And now that social media is a huge thing and it’s still here and it’s just shape-shifted, and it’s now just being approached in different ways and we’re being marketed to in weird, sneaky ways, it’s always been a thing. The question is how do we continue to try to do better and make a change? And I think it’s so fudging hard, because it is so baked into our culture, in our society, right?Christine Dickinson: Yeah.Megan Gill: I love my mom so much, and she doesn’t mean harm when she does these things, but the way that she was raised to applaud thinness and to applaud weight loss was just something in reflecting on my body image journey that she did when I lost weight. When your own mom is like, “Go, you! You lost weight! You look great!” Oh my God. I’m like, yeah, of course she’s doing that because that’s how she was raised. And now that social media is a thing and everyone’s online and people are having these different opinions and are having conversations about body image and are writing more art about body image online or the ways we’re marketed to by influencers or whatever it is. I feel like I’m just on a soapbox at the moment. I don’t even know where I’m going with this, but like, yeah, I’m like this shit has always been here, and is it going away? Are we really going to be able to do anything about it? I mean, it breaks my heart too because I’m like, I can vision a different way and a different world, but it’s gonna take a lot of work on a lot of fronts, right? I don’t know if you have thoughts on that too. Sorry, I’m sweating. Worked up a sweat!24:23Christine Dickinson: Me too! I’m pissed off about this. No, for real. Yeah. Everything, everything you said, and it’s interesting that you bring that up about your mom because I think that that’s such a generational thing. When I was much younger, I was very praised for being thin, not just by my own mother, but by everybody. I was a really skinny, small-framed kid. I was very long and skinny, long and thin, tall and thin. And I was also a very weird kid. I was a very bullied kid. I was a very quirky, not normal kid. I had a lot of social issues. I had a lot of social anxiety. I still do. But as a kid it was like, “Well, at least you’re skinny.”And I remember when I got older, and I was in high school, I had a very close friend who I was talking to about – I have all these other physical insecurities. I’m like, “I don’t like this, I don’t like that. I don’t like this, I don’t like that.” And she was like, “Christine, I need you to shut up because you’re skinny.” And I’m like, oh, okay. So I’m not allowed to have issues or concerns and none of that is valid because I’m thin?” And so, I think I really glamorized my own thinness, and I never looked at someone else and was like, “Oh, I’m better because I’m –,” not consciously, anyway. That was never something that I equated other people’s beauty with. But I think because I had been praised for so much of my life for being skinnier, I hid behind it and I was like, “Okay, yeah, I’m fine,” right?So then it really hasn’t been until maybe the last two years of my life (like 28, 29, 30), where I’ve looked at myself in the mirror, and I’ve thought, “Okay, I am heavier than I’ve ever been,” objectively speaking, and I see myself a little bit differently now. And I think when you’re raised to equate your thinness with value of yourself, when that goes away, being told you look healthy is an insult. It’s a stab to the heart because you equate, “You look healthy,” with not thin. Because before you were very skinny. You were thin, and like, “Yay. We that,” I guess. And now when you ask a close friend or a family member or a loved one, “Do I look thin in this?” And they say, “You look healthy.” That means no, and that can kind of shatter a person’s self-worth who has gone their entire life being told that thinness for you is all of your beauty. That’s all of your beauty right there, is the fact that you’re skinny.Megan Gill: Jesus. Yeah.Christine Dickinson: Yeah.Megan Gill: That is some heavy shit right there. And also some very real shit too that has just been put on so many of us, specifically, I think of our generation too, or at least the ones that are – you know, no matter when you come around to taking a look at it or examining it or realizing it’s happening or are curious about it, it’s really not okay, and it’s really devastating. And I think what’s even more devastating is that we like to think that’s not what’s happening, right? But you sharing that story, your story, is proof that it is. And that when we tie our value and our “worth in this world” to the shape of our body, which is just the reality of what’s going on and what has been going on forever and ever amen and is potentially not stopping anytime soon, that’s not okay, and it’s really fucked up. And it’s really – the emotional labor that is now put onto that person, whether you’re me when I was 16 like, “Oh my god, I am getting bullied for my weight, and I am fat and I’m getting all these messages,” or you’re 27 and you’re like, “Whoa, I’ve always been thin, and I am now being referred – my friends are telling me I look healthy.” And also, I just wanna point out the fact that looking healthy, A) what does that even mean? But also healthy is relatively used as a good, positive word.Christine Dickinson: Yeah.Megan Gill: Like, “You look healthy!” That’s good.Christine Dickinson: Yeah.Megan Gill: You don’t look like you’re dying, thank goodness, not to mock that. I think that just shows the depth of how devastating the impacts of the messages we receive about our bodies actually are.Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and I think the answer – I mean, I don’t know the answer, but what I think the answer is towards making this stop, making anything that is evil and bad in the world to stop, it always starts inward, I think. Anything that’s hurting people, anything that’s making people feel insecure, anything that’s making people feel betrayed by the vessel that’s carrying them throughout their life, it all starts inward.It all starts with work on yourself because people, not to shame anyone for procreating or not, but I think a lot of the times people have – and this is something that’s explored very much in Mother is that people will have children without even looking inward at healing any of their past traumas. They’ll just say, “I’m just gonna be better for this child. I’m just gonna be better because I now have the responsibility of taking care of another human being.” But the reality is that that little child, particularly that little girl is hearing you call her beautiful and then is watching you look at yourself in the mirror and hate what you see.And that’s something that’s very much, without spoiling it, something that we dive into a little bit in this play is like there’s a whole monologue about what can we do to make sure that our children aren’t constantly obsessing and fearful in the same ways that we have been? And the way to do that is by stopping doing that yourself. Children don’t take on and learn based on what you tell them. They take on the behaviors that you, yourself, exhibit. You can’t say, “Don’t dance on the table,” and then dance on the table and expect your kid not to get up with you.Megan Gill: Right.Christine Dickinson: You have to walk the walk in so many ways, and I think this might be a controversial thing. I’m not telling anyone that they should or shouldn’t, or should have or shouldn’t have, but I think that a lot of people do have children and just don’t at all look at themselves anymore. And maybe they think that’s an act of selflessness because now I’m responsible – maybe it’s probably, more realistically, the pressures that society puts on moms.And how much this country loves to hate on moms, despite the fact that, you know, women are told that we should be baby machines and they just don’t take care of you or give you maternity leave. It’s probably everything. It’s probably all of the pressures that are put on us, but I think a lot of people end up as parents, and they really have not examined the things that they need to examine in order to create healthy humans.Megan Gill: Yeah, I absolutely agree, wholeheartedly. And that’s obviously how trauma just gets passed down generationally. And I think that I’m really proud of our generation because I think we are one of the first that is exploring therapy on a wider scale and is taking the time to look inward and say, “All right, let me look at my own shit and maybe get my own life together before I have kids, or just settle for a man.” I mean, I think it’s clear that a lot of women these days are still single well into their 30s – hi, I’m one of them – because they are not going to settle for not being healed or not being on a healing journey and not being with someone who isn’t right for them, and I think we’re breaking some of these traumatic patterns that our parents didn’t have the tools to break or didn’t necessarily know how to break.And I don’t know if that’s also just social media and the internet? It’s very fascinating, but I am proud of the work that the millennials are actively doing. And I don’t know, I guess I’m just saying that because I am one and I see this happening amongst our generation. I think Gen X is included in that in some way, and obviously the younger generations too. Yeah, I think we are getting somewhere, but yeah, you’re so right that mother-daughter relationship where you are looking at your mom, and you’re right, you are looking at her words, but you’re also looking at her behaviors.Christine Dickinson: Yeah.Megan Gill: I think that in a lot of these conversations that I’ve had and in a lot of my ownconversations just in the world, I think a very universal experience that a lot of women have had is being young and looking at your mom, whether it’s in the dressing room or at home, looking at herself in the mirror and not being nice to herself. Oh, that was a nervous chuckle because it’s so fucking deeply, deeply sad.Christine Dickinson: Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: Yeah.Christine Dickinson: Yeah. And this is something – I’m so glad we’re having this conversation because I really had not examined these things until we started rehearsing this play. And it’s kind of at a point where it’s coming to a real head for me. And you know, I feel like I hear all of these people talking about their experience with it where they’re like, “Yeah, you know, and I endured all this stuff, and now I still struggle but I’m in a place of where I love myself and I’m able to take care of my body.” And I wish that I was there.I think at this point, I think I’m gonna say I’m not there yet. The reality is I’m not in a very happy place with my self-image right now. I’m hopeful that this play and sharing this story and getting it out there and just speaking it out into the world is gonna be a good first step. And it’s something that I’ve now officially brought up twice in therapy. In the five years that I’ve been with my therapist, I’ve never brought it up. And this is now something that I’m able to bring up.Yeah, I mean, I wish that I could, you know, come on here and share like, “Yeah, now I’m out of place of acceptance,” but I’m really not. And I think, yeah, a big first step of that is just calling it out, and I know that sounds like, “Oh yeah, first step is calling it.” Yeah, I said that a couple months ago and then two weeks ago I was crying in a bar bathroom because I realized I was the biggest in there, which was crazy. I’m like, okay, this is not – I was comparing myself to the other women at the bar who were all much younger than me, and I ended up crying in the bathroom and hiding for a really long time, and this was two weeks ago.So, yeah, I mean, I think it’s a lifelong journey and I can’t really – I don’t know. I can’t really say that I’m in a super healthy mental space with particularly that, but I also have to be gentle with myself because the last five years have just been full-blown chaos for me, as I feel it has been for most people with the pandemic and everything. I feel post-COVID, everything’s been a fever dream. But yeah, I think the last couple of years of adulthood have just been very stressful, and there have been other things that have had to be front and center. And now that those things are all kind of taken care of, it’s like, all right, now it’s this thing’s gotta be front and center, so yeah.Megan Gill: Thank you so much for sharing that, and what a lovely way to talk about that because, yeah, we can’t address everything at once, right? So I love that this is what’s front and center for you right now, and I know that working through this is only gonna take you to beautiful places. But I also just wanna share that I also firmly believe that we are never at a place of healed with our body or our body image or our relationship to our body, right? And I have to check myself a lot with this too because I’m like, “Wow, yes, I feel I’ve done so much healing and I’m in such a place,” and then I’ll turn around, and today I had a pretty bad body image day, man. It was pretty rough. And that happens all of the time. It’s just the ebb and flow of life, right? And I think that it’s just about getting the tools in your toolbox to be able to carry you through those bad days to then get over the hump to then maybe do it again two weeks later. Because that’s just the nature of life, right? And also I think it’s once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Once you come up to these body image roadblocks, I’ll just call them, within yourself, it’s like, “Well, that’s not going away now.” And maybe some of us have just been with ours for longer.I’m really proud of you, happy for you. I hate saying, like, “I’m proud of you,” because that sounds so, I don’t know, oddly condescending, even though it’s not. But I just really love that you said that you were actively giving yourself grace throughout this process, and even when we come up against the setbacks and the bad days, that’s all we gotta do, give ourselves grace and remind ourselves that we are good and just question why this is coming up for us, right?Christine Dickinson: Right.Megan Gill: At least I do a lot of that, but I’m just really glad that you’re giving yourself grace, because sometimes that’s all we can do.Christine Dickinson: Thank you for saying that. And it wasn’t taken in a condescending way at all. It made me very happy. So thank you.Megan Gill: That’s good to hear!Christine Dickinson: Yeah, it is a lot about giving grace to yourself, and I have a very hard time with that. I can go from here very, very quickly, jump off the cliff very, very quickly. Yeah, so it really is just about stopping and saying, “Why is this this way?” And I think a lot of it is where we live. I go back to Boston or Rhode Island or anywhere else, and I’m not confronted with the same amount of this as I am here.Megan Gill: Yeah.Christine Dickinson: I feel it’s a little bit more normalized in LA too. If you don’t like something, you just change it immediately without stopping and sitting with it. I don’t think that that means that people don’t feel the same way in other places, but I think that here we’re just so constantly confronted with it. So then stopping and acknowledging that, and then getting out of that sometimes to just go somewhere else for a little bit and change of scenery and seeing other perspectives and seeing how different it is in other places and how you’re just like – you can kind of get a break from it and take a step out and say, “Okay, yeah, no. That place –.” I mean, I like living here, I love LA but this place sometimes can get a little much with that sort of messaging. So I think acknowledging that that’s a reality here as well for me, has been very, very important.Megan Gill: Absolutely for me too, 100%. I’m glad you called that out. I have one last question for you before we wrap things up that I’m really excited to ask.Christine Dickinson: Oh, boy!Megan Gill: I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body is or are. It can be physical, it can be non-physical. It can be a combination of both. Whatever strikes you. I know I’m springing this on you.Christine Dickinson: I guess this counts. The first thing that came to mind when you said that, I guess it’s kind of physical, kind of not, my nervous system. Historically, that has been my least favorite thing about myself. But now I’m like, I don’t think I would’ve written this play if my nervous system wasn’t like, “Ughhh,” all the time because it is, “Ughhh,” all the time. If you know me, you know that I’m like a meerkat. But yeah, this play, I think because of the heightened nature of where I am all the time, even though I know it’s important to zen out and meditate and be chill sometimes, that’s not really how I am naturally. So I think my nervous system being so crazy is just keeping me safe and kind of exploring that within the play and seeing how that pushes me to different points. I don’t know, now I see it as a little intuition giving me a little boop, message about where to go next. So, yeah.Megan Gill: I absolutely love that. And your nervous system is beautiful because it is keeping you safe, right? How freaking cool is that? Oh my gosh. Thank you, Christine!Christine Dickinson: Thank you!Megan Gill: I’m so, so grateful that we were able to have this conversation, and I’m so grateful to you for being so open and vulnerable and for sharing so many things about your play and about yourself and about your relationship to your own body and some of the things you find yourself coming up against right now, because that is just not easy to talk about sometimes. So I’m really, really grateful to you, and thank you for being here.Christine Dickinson: Thank you. I’m grateful to you. Thanks for having me!Megan Gill: Of course!“ But I will say, my own personal deep-rooted body image stuff didn’t really come up for me until I started rehearsing this [play]. I mean, I feel like every woman, really every person, has their own body image story. But mine didn’t really take a front seat until I started really working on this [play]. And I think it became really abundantly clear some of the things that I had been struggling with and pushing down for a really long time once I started confronting this in my work.”- Christine DickinsonChristine is an actor, writer and creative living in LA. She is originally from Rhode Island, where she attended university and received her BFA in acting. Christine has been performing onstage for over 20 years, and moved to LA to pursue a deeper relationship with creativity. Her original one woman show MOTHER workshopped in October of this year. She hopes to take it to fringe festivals around the world. When she’s not working, acting or writing, she’s probably spending time planning her next mini road trip, catching a new movie with her fiancé, or snuggling with her sweet rescue pup Levi. Learn more about her project MOTHER on Instagram @calling.motherFollow Christine on InstagramFollow Christine’s One-Woman Show, “Mother” on InstagramSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Jennifer Ledesma to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Jennifer is an actor based in Chicago. She and I were auditioning in the Chicago theatrical market at the same time back in 2016-2018, and while we’d never booked the same show, we’d always see each other at auditions, in class, and in the community. (If you’re in the Chicagoland area, catch her in a show!)In our conversation, we discuss…* How prevalent it is for curvy and plus-size women to not be cast as the leading lady, love interest roles in musical theatre* Being told to switch majors (away from musical theatre) in college, yet being one of the only working actors from her class* The complexities of how our bodies and identities show up in the work that we do as actors* Destigmatizing the BFA* How Jennifer felt seeing a character breakdown that was meant for her, as a curvy, Latina actor* How the “F” in BFA ultimately doesn’t matter* Rediscovering the joy of dance through getting back into a movement practice that felt aligned for her and supportive of her strength and stamina goals* The juxtaposition of knowing what you want to change about yourself and not hyper-fixating on them and viewing them as imperfections* Embracing your curves instead of feeling shame for themOur bodies and identities are so complex. Jennifer reminds us that so much of who we are impacts the work we do as artists. We discussed so many important topics, and Jennifer shared some incredible perspectives on an array of body image-related topics. I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“ I think that just adds a whole other layer to the whole conversation that we’re having about body image and perspective, because I think that’s why I was also really powerful with seeing a show like “Real Women Have Curves” on Broadway. There’s not a lot of spaces were we’re celebrating plus-size women of color, specifically Latina plus-size women, in the industry, and just a specific space for that. It’s such an indescribable feeling, but I would love to see more shows like that representative of those communities and inviting in what makes us special or what makes us unique and inviting us to embrace all those “imperfections” rather than excluding us from an industry in spite of them.”- Jennifer LedesmaMegan Gill: Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for being with me today!Jennifer Ledesma: Hi, Megan. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this!Megan Gill: Me too. I can’t wait to chat! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and then sharing a little bit about who you are in the work that you do in the world?Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah my name’s Jennifer Ledesma. My pronouns are she/her. I grew up in Southern California, around the Anaheim, Disneyland area, but now I live in Chicago. I got my Bachelor of Arts degree in Musical Theater, and that’s primarily what I do. I primarily focus on stage acting in the musical theater world. When I was younger, I was training both as a vocalist and as a dancer separately, and it wasn’t until high school, where I was kind of trying to decide which route I wanted to go as a performer, when I went off for college. And then I found theater very late in high school. But that just kind of seemed like, you know, the best place to combine my passions for both.And then I also play a few instruments. So yeah, and then I ended up moving out here to Chicago for school. And I’m very thankful for that because I probably never would’ve considered Chicago as a place to pursue theater. But I fell in love with it, and I’ve been here ever since. So I’ve been here for over ten years now, which is kind of crazy to think about.But yeah, I mostly do musical theater, but what I love about Chicago is that I feel it’s really easy to pursue different ventures of the performing arts. So, you know, still performing in film, TV, commercial work. I feel Chicago’s really encouraging of new work too. So a lot of work that I booked coming out of school was a lot of new work. So yeah, that’s a little bit about me in a nutshell.Megan Gill: I love that, and that’s where we met. We met in Chicago in the theater world. It is such a lovely community and a special, special place to be an artist and to be a creative.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I feel with you and me, we’ve never worked together, but I feel we always ran into each other at auditions, and it was always so nice to see a friendly face. And I think that’s something that you really get the sense of in the Chicago theatre community. I feel everyone’s really, you know, advocating for each other as much as possible.Megan Gill: I agree. It’s very unique and very lovely, and I miss it!So, in light of what we’re here to chat about today, I’m wondering how your relationship to your body and body image influences how you show up as a performer in auditions, onstage, in these communal spaces.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I feel that’s such a loaded question and a very complex question to think about, and that’s why I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation. You know, I spoke a little bit about my background. My primary art when I was a kid is I started taking dance classes at the age of five because I have asthma, so my mom wanted me to do something active that wasn’t sports related, so I wouldn’t be out with dirt or whatever. And so I’ve been a dancer from age five through now. And my relationship to my body as a dancer has always been really interesting because I don’t have a typical dancer body. I am a curvy Latino woman. My boobs came in way earlier than a lot of my other friends when I was growing up. And, you know, I would always hear comments when I was preparing for dance recitals of – you know, when they would be fitting costumes on me, and they would make jokes of, like, “Oh, you’re just, you know, a little bit more well-endowed than the other girls.” And you know, it was always light fun, but I think I was definitely conscious about it, and I feel like that definitely probably also had an influence on me knowing that if I did pursue dance over being a vocalist when I was a kid, I knew that I was gonna have a really hard time doing that as an adult just because I didn’t have a dancer body. And I think it has definitely transferred in my life as an actor now.It’s hard because, you know, I feel, even with my family, my mom is my biggest cheerleader. She’s the most supportive person, but she’s also very conscious about it as well. And I think when I was growing up, she would try to make comments of, “Oh, I’m just trying to make these comments to protect you because I want you to succeed,” which I understand her perspective, but it’s hard because, you know, when you hear your own mother, making comments about your body and that kind of thing. And I think as a musical theater artist, there are definitely times when I do ask myself would I be considered for certain roles if I didn’t look the way that I did?And I even had this conversation with my agent when he and I have sat down and had check-ins of, “Okay, what’s working? What’s not working?” Because there came a point in my career about a year ago where, you know, I was getting auditions but I wasn’t getting callbacks, or I was getting callbacks but I wasn’t booking the job, or my agent was submitting me for things and we weren’t getting auditions. So part of me wondered because I’ve always gotten comments from people throughout my career here in Chicago.You know, I started off doing a lot of ensemble work and have kind of worked my way up getting more supporting, leading roles. And I’ll always encounter people who are like, “I didn’t know you could sing like that. Why haven’t we heard you sing more?” And I’ve always kind of wondered would I book more leading lady-type work if I didn’t look the way that I did, you know, if I wasn’t a curvy woman. Because I feel like, especially the musical theater industry, can lend itself really heavily into stereotypes. So being a curvier girl, I feel I’m always pushed towards the best friend type or the comedic type or, god forbid, I’ve been called in for so many, grandma, 40-year-old, 50-year-old-woman tracks, which even in college, they prepped me for that, which is just – it really can do a psyche on yourself because it’s like, “No, I know I’m a 20, 30-year-old woman, and I know I can sing these roles, so it’s disappointing that I’m not being given the chance just because I don’t fit a certain mold.And so, going back to your question in terms of how I show up, I feel I try not to let it push me down in terms of what I want to go out for. But it’s hard because sometimes I feel like if I’m self-submitting myself for something, I question, okay, do I want to submit myself for the role I think I have the better chance of booking or the better chance of getting an audition for, or do I want to submit for the character that I resonate more with or that I know I could do really well?I have a pretty wide range as a vocalist. And I have a very upper-soprano register of my voice that my voice teacher is very supportive with. And he’s always like, “I want more people to hear this lovely part of your voice.” But, you know, as a plus-size woman, I just – you know you don’t see a lot of plus-sized women play the Lauries in Oklahoma or the golden age girls. So, and even Gentleman’s Guide, the love interest.And, you know, going back to the whole comment I made about how it can have an influence on your psyche, it’s like yeah, curvy girls never get to play the love interest or it’s not seen as the norm in musical theater. And it’s just disappointing because in real life we have love interests! We have blooming love lives!Megan Gill: Yes, absolutely. It is so disappointing and so disheartening, and so, it’s interesting to hear your perspective now in 2025, specifically, because it’s like okay, how much progression are we making? “We” as a loose term for the music theater industry, whether in Chicago, in New York, on Broadway whatever it is, how many strides are we actually making in terms of not casting inside this outdated body type norm that’s just been the way that it’s been forever and ever amen. And I just appreciate you sharing your experience still coming up against these walls and still coming up against these blocks. And it just hurts my heart because you’re right. It absolutely should not be that way. And it’s hard that it’s still 2025, and we’re still having to fight the fight. You’re still having to show up and ask yourself, “Do I want to submit myself to the role that I wanna book and that could maybe bust a producer’s mind open to, yeah, why are we not casting this curvy woman in this role? Why the hell not? Why can’t we?”Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I do think the industry has grown where it’s being more acceptive of that now. I have gotten the chance to go in for a few characters. It’s just, I wish it was, I think, progressing quicker than I would want it to, or you still come across people in the industry that do have those outdated perceptions of, like, “No, this character should look this, or this character should look that.”And I’m also very lucky to have a really supportive agent where, you know, just in conversations with my therapist where I’ve talked to her about my frustrations with, you know, not booking the job or not getting called in for certain roles. And she just kind of encouraged me to have a conversation with my agent about it and see. I think it would be really helpful to see if other people think that this struggle of yours is something that’s stopping you from getting jobs or if that’s something that’s in your head.And I kind of just asked my agent point blank, “Do you think, you know, this is having any kind of blockage on my why I am not getting work?” And he was really supportive, and he was like, “I would hate to think that. I don’t think that’s the case.” And he’s like, “And also, if that is the case, those aren’t the type of people we want to work with to begin with.” But he was very encouraging and was just reminding me it only takes the specific team, the specific show, that one “yes.”And this was kind of my win, because shortly after we had that conversation, I got an audition to go in for Real Women Have Curves on Broadway, and I ended up getting a callback, and I had to fly to New York for it, which that was my first Broadway callback, and it excited me because ever since I had heard about the show, you know, becoming a musical, moving to Broadway, seeing the character breakdown, I was like, oh, have to be involved with this show because this is one of the first times I’m seeing a character breakdown where it says, “Mexican, curvy woman,” and it’s all facets of ourselves, you know? So that was a really lovely thing to see, and that was a really just cool moment where, you know, I was feeling down on myself and my relationship with my body and how I show up in the industry. And to have the opportunity to go in for a show like that where my agent, you know, after it happened, he just tried to remind me, “See, I was just saying, it just takes the right team, the right, you know, show the right opportunity.” And he was just the most encouraging person about it.So even though, you know, I did not end up booking Broadway, it was a really, really proud moment that I had in my career, and I’m disappointed that show didn’t continue on Broadway because I loved reading the material for it. I had gone in for it, like, every iteration that they did: the workshop, the pre-Broadway run, and then when it went to Broadway. So it was cool, and it was different characters every time, so it was cool to stick with it. Yeah, it was a really cool opportunity, and I’m really hoping that show has a regional life because it’s such a stunning show.Megan Gill: Oh, I’m so bummed. I was in New York in April, and I really wanted to see it. I was there for work, and timing of the shows with work. It didn’t line up.Congratulations! I’m so thrilled for you, and there are a couple things here that I think are so important. First is how wonderful your agent is. Thanks for just sharing all the ways that he’s been so supportive with you, because I think that that relationship is so, so vital and I’m so glad that your therapist encouraged you to have the open dialogue with him and to talk about it. Because now, hopefully, do you feel more comfortable continuing a thread of that similar conversation, if things come up for you or if you want to discuss that type of stuff?Jennifer Ledesma: I think so, and I think just being aware about it. If that makes sense. And I think if anything, my relationship with my body and as a dancer – you know, still in college I was, you know, dancing almost every day, taking classes. And then that just kind of stopped when I graduated. And I had this long period of my life in adulthood where, you know, you can’t afford dance classes as much as you could when…Megan Gill: It was free! Yeah.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, they’re expensive. So I kind of stopped training, and it was interesting too because in college I was kind of known as the dancer first. But I was really lucky that after I graduated college, a lot of the work I booked was off being more of a vocalist, being more of an actor first. And that kind of changed my perception of myself as well because I think it’s really easy for people to see you as one facet of yourself. “Oh, dancer first, you know, singer next,” or “I would define myself as a singer first, dancer second, or singer/mover,” you know, how we put all ourselves into these little categories or boxes. And in college, because of my dance background, I was just known as, “Oh, Jennifer’s a dancer primarily.”And I’m really lucky that I have had the people in my life who have encouraged me or reminded me of, “No, you’re not just this one thing. There are other talents that you have that people should see.” So I’ve had the same voice teacher since college, my senior year of college, because he was the one that told me, “You’re a great dancer, but you’re also a really great vocalist.” I didn’t make my school’s – my school had two musical theater programs. We had the BFA track and then the regular BA track. I got into the school, but then I auditioned for the BFA track. I didn’t get in, and I was actually told by a professor, “You should switch your major.Megan Gill: Like, away from performance?Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, correct.Megan Gill: Oh, my god.Jennifer Ledesma: Well, and I know I’m not the only – which is just funny to think about because, you know, I was told that, and I know I’m not the only person he told that to. I know that there are other friends of mine who got similar comments when they auditioned for the BFA program. And it’s just funny to think about now because my other friend who I know this happened to, she’s now gone off to work for some of the biggest regional houses in America, and she’s in New York teaching at Broadway Dance Center, Steps on Broadway consistently. She has so many classes throughout the week that she teaches, and she’s a star. And it’s just crazy to think that, you know, she got similar comments to what I got. And now, after I graduated, I think I’m one of the only people from my class that is still working consistently even though IMegan Gill: That’s amazing.Jennifer Ledesma: – yeah, even though I didn’t make the BFA program. And I was really lucky that when I was a junior, senior, I had a lot of upperclassmen telling me it, “It really doesn’t matter when you go out into the real world. That’s just a letter.” I feel in the musical theater world, it’s such a big, “Ah, I graduated from this BFA program.” It’s such a prestigious thing. And I do really feel that has not limited me from, you know, booking work post-college.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I feel that’s another one of those things that is so stigmatized when you’re in high school going into a program. Like, “Oh, you want the BFA.” But I agree, ultimately, at the end of the day, I really don’t think…Jennifer Ledesma: Right! And I tried to follow the BFA courseload as much as I could even though I didn’t get into the program. The second thing is that the BFA program immediately got into showcase, and the BA kids had to audition for showcase. And even if we auditioned for showcase, we could only do a monologue or scene. We couldn’t do a song, which is foolish because you’re a musical theater major. You would want to sing for showcase. But, you know, going back to what I was talking about with, you know, post-college training, yeah, I stopped dancing consistently, and I really struggled to find a consistent workout plan that worked for me just because, you know, I was a dancer my whole life. So when I went to the gym, I didn’t know what to do. And I know for some people it’s really, you know, maybe easy to find a workout plan or get linked with a trainer or that kind of thing. And I think for me, there’s a certain type of stigma that curvy women feel in the gym or when working out and that kind of thing. And I would have to say that stopped me from really exploring any of that for a long time. And I would still go to dance calls, but If I had to choose between a dance call or a singer’s call, I would choose the singer’s call. And I knew that I could hold my own at a dance call but, you know, because I wasn’t training consistently, I wasn’t picking up routines as quickly as I could have. Or there were certain things of, like, “Oh, you’re not training, so your body’s gonna give out,” whether it’s stamina or technique, or that kind of thing.So it wasn’t until a couple years ago I started dancing consistently again, and I really tried to approach it from not even dancing to train for my career but just dancing to find the joy of it again. And I started taking different classes outside of the dance world in terms of I started taking strength training classes. I started taking Pilates, and I really tried to view it as cross-training to support myself to have the stamina in shows to make it without, you know, my body giving out. Because there were a couple shows I’ve had to do physical therapy for just because my body wasn’t keeping up with the amount of dancing or running around that I had to do onstage. And I really wanted to approach taking classes again, not as a way to train, but just as a way to do it for myself, if that makes sense.Megan Gill: Yeah, make it less about just doing it for your career and make it a more all encompassing act?Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, and so, when I started going back to dance classes, I tried to go to dance studios that I knew theater people didn’t go to because I also didn’t want to feel like, “Oh, now I have to put on a show for people,” you know, because I think it is really easy to feel that when you’re taking class.Megan Gill: Oh, for sure.Jennifer Ledesma: And I feel now I’ve kind of – you know, it’s been a long journey. I’m still not where, you know, I would want to be, but I’m trying to have – now I, you know, go to dance classes, and I used to hate taping myself and then watching it back. The classes that I was going to, that was just the thing that people did when we were in combos at the end of the night, and so, I just started taping myself because sometimes then I would watch it back and be like, “Oh, actually that wasn’t that bad! I actually did a pretty good job. I actually maybe know what I’m doing!” And yeah, it was just a nice reminder of, yes, I did train as a dancer for 15 years, I do have this in my body. And I’ve had people tell me that, and I didn’t believe it or I didn’t see it because I think I was so just focused on the negatives, you know?And so, it’s been really nice, in the past year, to just kind of find the joy in dancing again, do it for myself, take classes that are not also primarily rooted in musical theater style. So I take a hip-hop class here in Chicago that focuses on Chicago House Steps, and that’s very much not in the world of musical theater at all. But it’s just taking class just because I like the style and not because it could, you know, better me as a musical theater dancer. But I do feel like taking classes in different styles fundamentally just helps you explore different facets of yourself as a mover or as a dancer.So yeah, in the past year, I’ve been focusing on that, and it’s been really lovely to kind of take the pressure off with going back into dance and finding the joy in that again and approaching it more so for myself and not for my career. And I just took a dance class last night. It was a new class to me. It was one that was recommended from a friend, so she took me. And it’s, you know, intimidating to step into new spaces, especially as a dancer, to take a new dance class when you can show up to the class and you see, “Oh, it’s a big group of people. They’re regulars. There’s a very consistent following. But it was such a joyful class. And at the end of class, the teacher came up to me, and she was you have so much joy when you dance. it’s so lovely to watch.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, what a compliment!Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, that was so, so nice to hear because, you know, taking a class, I found myself, “I’m in my head,” and I was just trying to remind myself, “You are here just to dance. There doesn’t need to be any pressure.” But felt myself – because we were also – it was a jazz class, and she was actually teaching a style that was more musical theater. So immediately I was like, “Ugh.” I felt my body stiff up like, “Okay, people know me as this musical theater girl. They’re gonna be expecting me to do this well.” But then I reminded myself, “Oh, it’s been so long since I’ve gone to do a more musical theater style because I’ve primarily been taking classes like jazz funk, or hip-hop, or ballet. So I had this moment where I was like, “No, this is in my wheelhouse. This is my style. I should just be able to enjoy this moment and not immediately critique myself because the only one judging me is myself.”Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, yes, one hundred percent. I just love this, especially growing up a dancer and starting from a very young age, because I also have an understanding of what that’s like. Because I started dancing when I was very young as well and continued all the way through college and thereafter, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah.Megan Gill: I haven’t taken a class in a minute, so I can relate with you on all of the feelings about walking into a room of a bunch of dancers being like, “All right! We’ll see what happens!” But what a beautiful reflection on where you are now in your relationship to how you’re showing up in the dance spaces that you’re in, in this place where, you know, there’s typically a mirror, and our bodies are doing the movement and executing the art form. And just to hear how your relationship has evolved to how you’re showing up in these spaces is beautiful, and I really appreciate you sharing that. And also, I feel there are so many important aspects of where you’re finding yourself now with taking the pressure off and just allowing yourself to show up with joy for yourself.Jennifer Ledesma: Yes. Yeah.Megan Gill: Because you want to. And kind of trying to get outta your head and get out of your way in that sense is really, really hard work.Jennifer Ledesma: No, but I love what you just also touched on. You know, yeah, when you go to a dance class, there is a mirror in front of you. And that’s something I’ve had to get out of my head about because, you know, most of the time may be the only curvy girl in the class, so how I look when I dance is gonna look different than how other girls look in the class. As a dancer, I still really struggle with floor work because, as a curvy girl, getting on the floor and getting off the floor is not a strong suit of mine, and I’ve just tried to have more confidence in myself or try to remind myself there’s nothing wrong when there is floor work that’s introduced. I just ask the teacher now, “Hey, do you have a modification for people who can’t do the floor work?” And most of the time those teachers are willing to give you something else, and it’s just not being afraid to ask the question.Megan Gill: And advocate for yourself in that sense, too.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And reminding myself when I watch videos at the end of the day, “Okay, focus on how I’m dancing. Don’t focus on, you know, all the little critiques you have about your body.” But it’s definitely easier said than done. Before we started recording, we were talking about, you know, other conversations that you’ve had with other people, and there was a comment that was made by someone, I can’t remember who it was, but I really resonated with it when you posted it because they had spoken about how they were trying – it’s the juxtaposition of wanting to, you know, still embrace where your body was at and the beauty of your body and being confident in being a curvy woman but also not feeling shame for wanting to shift your body or change your body. Because I think that’s the way I’ve tried to approach my relationship to dance or fitness in the past year. I’m very proud to be a curvy woman. Are there things I want to change? Maybe, and I don’t want to feel shame for that, but I also want to embrace the body that I’m in. So it’s like how do those two meet each other?Megan Gill: Right, which I think is just such a complex and nuanced thought, concept.Jennifer Ledesma: Yes. Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: There are so many layers there, right? But also I think it’s important to destigmatize how polarized they each can get.Jennifer Ledesma: One hundred percent.Megan Gill: And how we think, “Oh, well, either I’ve fully embraced my body and I am on body image healing journey and I’m trying to view my body through this neutral lens, or I’m over here wanting to change her.”Jennifer Ledesma: Right.Megan Gill: And, okay, it’s so normal to exist in the in-between or on some spectrum of that scale, and it’s normal for where you’re at, where we’re each individually on that spectrum just to move around and shift as we grow in our lives too. It’s not always going to be the same. And I think it’s also only normal in our culture, in our society for us to want to change something about our bodies.Jennifer Ledesma: Yes.Megan Gill: We are conditioned and taught our whole entire lives. I feel like the question I see time and time again is, “What do you dislike about your body? If you could change one thing about your body, what would it be?” And I’m almost so tired of this – I know it’s coming from a place of trying to, you know, display that so many women are conditioned to dislike our bodies and certain things about ourselves. But I’m also like, “Okay, let’s quiet that question and maybe ask a different question,” you know?Jennifer Ledesma: Right. Why can’t we ask women, “What’s your favorite part about your body?” You know, instead of asking what we’d want to change. But I definitely hear it.Megan Gill: Yes!Jennifer Ledesma: And especially in the musical theater world, you know, a few years ago I had never thought about plastic surgery, Botox, you know, that kind of thing. And I did a contract out of town where just girls in my cast, you know, they had done that, and they were just kind of telling me, “Oh, you know, yeah, when you start it in your late twenties, early thirties, that’s better to keep up maintenance.” And it had me thinking, “Okay, I don’t feel any shame for wanting to explore that,” because also your body is an instrument when you’re an actor, so you have to maintain your body, but then it’s this weird juxtaposition of, “Well, now that I know the things I’d want to maybe change if I did explore plastic surgery, it’s really hard to not see those “imperfections” when you are onstage. Because then, you know, I did a show this summer where there were so many photos taken. We were the only four onstage the whole show, and I found myself really critiquing myself because every photo that came out, I was like, “Ugh, I hate how my double chin looks. I really wish I had gotten something done before this show happened because now that’s all I can look at.” And it sucks because then there were other people, other girls in my cast where we’d take a photo or we were looking at the photos, and I was like, “Oh, I hate how I look in that photo.” And they were like, “You look great! What are you, what are you talking about? You look lovely.” And it’s hard not to sometimes see photos of yourself and only see those imperfections that you would want to shift.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh. It’s so interesting that you’re bringing this up because, every other week that I share a conversation, I write a little blog post about something I’m dealing with pertaining to body image, something of the sorts. And the one that I published today was how I’m on a journey of trying to stop policing my body in photos, which is so difficult to do! It’s like you said. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And I know exactly what you mean when you say the things – now that I can see these little lines above my eyebrows, every time I look in the mirror or you know, not every time, but a lot of times when I look in the mirror or in a photos, it’s like I can’t not see those and wonder if I should change them.Jennifer Ledesma: Right, or even, I don’t know if you struggle with this, but when I’m self-taping, I’m like, “Okay, I have to set up the camera a certain way so that it doesn’t get my double chin,” or “Ooh, gotta gotta put some more bronzer on because I’ve got to, you know, make sure there’s a line here,” and that kind of thing. And sometimes I’ll, you know, take a slate, and the only thing I’ll think about or see is, “Ugh, I hated that angle of my face. Got to redo it because I just don’t like the way I look there.”Megan Gill: Yeah, and what’s sad about that is that we are then taking more of our precious time to redo and redo and to fix and fix and make it better and try to make it better when like – I don’t even know what I’m trying to say, but it sucks.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, well, it makes me think about, too, I’ve heard certain actors or just people who see theater, they make comments of like, “Oh, I love watching that performer because she wasn’t afraid to look ugly onstage when she was, you know, being funny,” or that kind of thing. And I find that when I’m onstage, that’s the only thing I can think about is, “Okay, have to make sure I’m – you know, I’m looking this way or I’m looking that way because I don’t want the audience to see, you know, this profile of myself because I hate this profile of myself.” And it becomes less about the work and more about, “Hmm, I don’t want people to see me a certain way.”Megan Gill: Oh my god, which then keeps us constrained from being able to show our full, authentic selves through the art.Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I was on a show this summer and it was the first time I invited someone that I was dating to come see me in a show. And so, I was so nervous, but one of the biggest insecurities I have is, “My gosh, what if he sees me onstage and he’s not attracted to me.” And, you know, as a performer you should never think that. But I think also as a plus-size performer, that is also a struggle that I’ve encountered in shows is meeting costume designers who, you know, are not open to hearing what you’re not comfortable wearing onstage, or are not open to receiving feedback of, “Hey, I really love this mockup that you did. I’m not comfortable wearing, you know, tank tops. Can we put something with sleeves?” or that kind of thing. And that’s another facet of the industry I feel is hard, is kind of bracing yourself when you’re going to a fitting like, “Okay, I might have to try clothes on that don’t fit me,” and, you know, I feel like that can be a very vulnerable thing.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely.Jennifer Ledesma: And so, I was really lucky on the show I just worked on, it’s probably one of the most seamless costume fittings I’ve ever had. And I wore this beautiful peach 1950s dress, off the shoulders, and I felt like a princess when I put it on. It was probably one of my favorite things I’ve ever worn onstage. And I told the costume designer, “Thank you for finding something for me that made me feel so beautiful, because this is not the way I feel sometimes when I come into fittings.” And it was just nice that, first try, she found something that fit me, and it didn’t have to be this back and forth of not finding outfits that don’t fit you properly or don’t compliment your body or that kind of thing.Megan Gill: Which is typically your experience in fittings?Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, I would say so. I would say lately I’ve been really fortunate to work with costume designers that are really open to having conversations, but there have been a couple shows – yeah, there have been shows that I’ve worked on where it’s not the greatest experience, or when you’re trying to vocalize, you know, “Hey, I feel most confident when I’m wearing something this. It’s hard when it’s pushed back upon, or when you’re working with costume designers who think, “Oh, I’m working with a bigger body, so I just have to put bigger clothes on them,” clothes that are not fitting properly or baggy or that kind of thing. And it’s like, “No, I’m still confident in my body! I still want to show it off. You don’t have to just drown me in fabric.Megan Gill: Right. Right, right, right. Oh, I’m so glad that you’ve had some good recent experiences, and I just appreciate you sharing the ups and the downs too, because I was getting emotional as you were talking about, on first go, feeling beautiful in your wardrobe, because also the wardrobe for us performing artists is what you are using your instrument in. So if you don’t feel confident, and if you don’t feel like you’re supported in the fitting and in that conversation where this person is dressing you, and they have a say of what you’re wearing, yeah, it can have a huge impact.I’m really glad to hear that you’re having more and more positive experiences in those fittings and with those costume designers, because I think that’s also a place where a lot of this change can start as well. It’s with educators in college, in high school. It’s with casting directors being able to move away from this lens of, “Oh, we have to cast the ingenue in this type of body and the best friend in this type of body,” and it’s in the costume designers in being able to show up in a supportive way and being open to listening and to supporting the artists and making them feel their best too, so that they can go and do their best work onstage where you’re literally on blast in front of a freaking audience.Jennifer Ledesma: And I think that’s something that people often forget is that it’s very vulnerable to be onstage putting your work or your heart out there. And how can you be expected to show up and be your best self if you don’t feel confident in what you’re put in to wear, or if you’re so self-conscious about how you look? I can’t imagine how anyone would be able to put their best work forward.Megan Gill: I agree.Jennifer Ledesma: yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah. I do have a last question to ask you before we wrap up, but before I ask you, I’m curious to know if there’s anything else you want to share or bring to the conversation?Jennifer Ledesma: It’s interesting because I was just thinking about this, and I feel this can be a very nuanced conversation, but I think also, you know, as we’re talking about stereotypes in musical theater. I, as a bigger gal, it’s interesting because one of my dream roles is Tracy and Hairspray. And it’s been interesting because I’ve heard from some people who are also plus-size girls, “Mm, I don’t think you’re big enough to play Tracy.” And it’s just this interesting feeling to feel like, “Okay, well I’m a size, you know, 20, 22. I don’t know how – it’s weird to see the numbers on the scale and then be told, “Mm, no. I don’t think you’re big enough.” So it’s like, “Okay, so where do I fit then if even other plus-size girls are telling meI’m not enough of this or I’m not enough of that?” So it’s this weird in-between space.Megan Gill: What does that even mean? It’s almost like what does big enough even mean to you?Jennifer Ledesma: Right, right.Megan Gill: Or what does small enough even mean to you? And also why are we viewing it through these lenses?Jennifer Ledesma: Exactly.Megan Gill: Is it just because we always have?Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah. I feel that’s a harder conversation to dive into. But it’s definitely just, I don’t know, something I thought about because I feel like, in musical theater, because it does play so much on stereotypes, it’s like, “Okay, you’re either all of this or all of that, and there’s no room for nuance in between.” So, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just an interesting thing to play with.Megan Gill: Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that, because I think also the beauty is moving towards that nuance, of course, right? That’s the hope is that we can continue as a theater community at large to move towards that nuance. But thanks for bringing that up.So my last question for you is funny because you said it earlier, and I was like, “Ha, ha, ha! Do I tell her now that I’m gonna ask her later?” But what I’m trying to do, specifically in these conversations, is ask my guests what their favorite thing or things about their own body is, and it can be physical, it can be non-physical, it could be one of each, and I know I’m springing it on ya!Jennifer Ledesma: No, I love it, and I’m glad that this is how you end your conversations because it’s, you know, what we just touched on – why aren’t we asking women enough about what they love about themselves rather than what they would want to change?I love my smile. I feel I’m a very – I feel my natural thing to do is smile. And I’ve always been told by people that, “Oh, you have a really lovely smile!” It reminds me of the comment I got from that teacher yesterday of, “Oh, you have so much joy when you dance.” I just feel like, to my core, I’m a very joyful person, so I love my smile. I have a little space in between my teeth, a little chip in my tooth, and sometimes I’ve gone into the dentist and they’re like, “Oh, do you want us to fix that chip in your tooth?” And I’m like, “No, I love it! Leave my chip alone!”Megan Gill: I love that!Jennifer Ledesma: I love my legs. It’s easy to find the imperfections or whatever, but I think whenever I doubt if I’m a dancer or not, I feel like my legs are very representative of that, if that makes sense. I feel I have dancer calves from taking ballet. And I love my thighs. Thick thighs save lives. I love my thighs, and I’ve always been – this might deem into the sexual you know world or, or whatever –Megan Gill: That’s okay!Jennifer Ledesma: – but I love my boobs. I know that that is one of my greatest attributes as a woman. I don’t feel shame in showing them off. And yeah, it makes me feel confident when I, you know, put on an outfit and, you know, want to show off the girls and that kind of thing.Megan Gill: Heck yeah! And what an important callback to when you were growing up in dance and. The moms or the teachers or whoever the adults were that were making comments about how you were more well-endowed. And you’re like, “Yeah! I love them!”Jennifer Ledesma: Right, yeah, it was a thing to feel shameful for, but no, I’m pretty happy with them.Megan Gill: Heck yeah!Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I think something that I haven’t touched on in this interview, or I’ve made comments throughout the conversation, but, especially as a plus-size Latina woman, I feel that’s a really easy way also to feel othered. Because when those comments were made, it was like, “Oh, yeah, you’re Latina. You have the Latina curves,” because those were physical attributes that were common in my family. It’s like, “Oh yeah, you’ve got the Ledesma curves or the Ledesma boobs, whatever, or the Guzman thighs,” whatever. I think it’s easy to pair the shame – I don’t know. I think it can be a very nuanced conversation or perspective of, I think the shame that I felt in my body when I was younger or even now, it’s easy to tie that in with my identity as a woman of color. And I think that just adds a whole other layer to the whole conversation that we’re having about body image and perspective, because I think that’s why I was also really powerful with seeing a show like Real Women Have Curves take place on Broadway. There’s not a lot of spaces where we’re celebrating plus-size women of color, specifically Latina, plus-size women in the industry, and just a specific space for that, it’s such an indescribable feeling. But I would love to see more shows like that representative of those communities and inviting us in rather than – inviting what makes us special or what makes us unique, and inviting us to embrace all those “imperfections” rather than excluding us from an industry in spite of them, if that makes sense.Megan Gill: Oh, absolute, yes, perfect sense. And I appreciate you going back to that piece of the conversation as well and for touching on that because I think that’s extremely important. So thank you for sharing.Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you. And just, you know, also going back to, you know, the conversation that we were just having about not finding your place in an industry because you’re not skinny enough, you’re not fat enough, or that kind of thing. I think it’s going back to that, that word of enough. I think it’s very easy in this industry not to feel like enough of this, enough of that. I think even as a Latina woman, I don’t speak perfect Spanish. So sometimes I, you know, don’t feel enough of a Latina because my Spanish isn’t perfect and that kind of thing. And I think in the industry we work in, I think those things are just mag – extreme – I can’t find the specific word I want to find.Megan Gill: Magnetized?Jennifer Ledesma: There we go, yes, magnetized! Yes, thank you!Megan Gill: Oh, gosh, what’s the word? I think it magnifies!Jennifer Ledesma: No, it truly is both, I feel like! Yeah, it’s easy to just put a spotlight on all those things. And yeah, just that word of enough, I feel like it’s an ongoing loop. But I feel like I’m doing the most I can to push away that perception and embrace my body for what it is and kind of shut out the outside voices that will tell you you’re not enough, whether it’s other people or the perception that you have of yourself, that little voice in your head. But yeah, because I think we have to remind ourselves that the only one putting that feeling of not enough is ourselves at the end of the day. Yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s such an important journey to go on, and I’m just so glad to hear that you are doing that work for yourself and working to take care of yourself in that way so that you can show up with all of the incredible things that you are and all of the incredible talents you have and do the work that you love to do and that you are dedicating your life to doing.Jennifer Ledesma: Yes.Megan Gill: It’s so, so important.Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you! Honestly, I’ve loved all the conversations that we’ve had today. I was not sure where this conversation was gonna go, but it was also so nice to just ruminate on my past experience as a dancer, as I know that you can relate to that as well, and open up about all the complexities of how our bodies and identities can show up and the work that we do in the industry. Yeah, I feel like people sometimes don’t realize how much of ourselves either impacts the work that we do or impacts how we show up in spaces. So, yeah, this was really lovely.Megan Gill: Absolutely. It really was. I am so lit up right now and so energized, and I appreciate you for being so vulnerable and sharing and talking with me today.Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you! And I appreciate you just inviting me into this space and, you know, having this conversation with me. It feels great.Megan Gill: Of course!Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I feel like my cup is full.Megan Gill: Well, thank you. I appreciate you for being here!Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you!“ I have a pretty wide range as a vocalist. And I have a very upper soprano register of my voice that my voice teacher is very supportive with. And he’s always like, “I want more people to hear this lovely part of your voice.” But as a plus-size woman, you don’t see a lot of plus-size women play the Lauries in “Oklahoma,” or the Golden Age girls, and even “Gentleman’s Guide,” the love interest. Going back to the whole comment I made about how it can have an influence on your psyche, it’s like, yeah, curvy girls never get to play the love interest, or it’s not seen as the norm, in musical theater. And it’s just disappointing because, in real life, we have love interests, we have blooming love lives.”- Jennifer LedesmaJennifer Ledesma is a Mexican-American singer, actor, dancer, and musician currently based in Chicago. Favorite theatre credits include American Mariachi (TheatreSquared), The Marvelous Wonderettes (Oil Lamp Theatre), Shrek (Drury Lane Theatre), Spongebob the Musical and Grand Hotel (Kokandy Productions), West Side Story (Morris Performing Arts Center), Nunsense (Little Theatre on the Square), Same Same But Different (New York City Children’s Theatre), and The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Music Theatre Works). She was featured in Broadway In Your Backyard and New Faces Sing Broadway 1956 (Porchlight Music Theatre). Originally from California, Jennifer has a Bachelor of Arts in Musical Theatre from Columbia College Chicago and is represented by Big Mouth Talent. When she’s not performing, Jennifer loves dancing to new pop bops, reading romance novels with just a bit of spice, and watching too much reality television.Stay updated with Jennifer:www.instagram.com/jennifermarieledesmawww.jennifer-ledesma.comSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Beth Hawkes to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! As both an actor and photographer of actors, Beth is a multi-talented creative human being. I met Beth online in a business program in 2020, and I’ve shot with her in-person three times now! Each time I’ve done a shoot with her, she’s beautifully captured my essence as a human being at that particular time in my life, which has been lovely to experience.In our conversation, we discuss… Where the line of body image encouragement yet honoring each individual's insecurities lies; Beth’s incredible ability to capture her subjects’ true essence; the non-physical aspects of our acting careers that can lead us to deepening with character, and therefore bookings; wearing the clothes that we actually feel good in and love to our photoshoots and auditions so we can show up present and involved (instead of worrying about how we look/fussing with our hot shorts); and accepting our changing bodies as we move through different phases of our big, beautiful lives.Beth’s lens on encouraging her clients to accept their bodies for how they are while also honoring each client’s individual thoughts and feelings around their bodies is incredibly nuanced and beautiful. She values her relationship between herself (as photographer) and her clients. It’s clear how important making them feel comfortable in front of her camera is. She ultimately wants her clients to show up as their best selves to their shoots, and we discuss how us actors can get out of our own ways when shooting with a photographer, so we can hopefully get some pretty authentic photos of ourselves. Spoiler alert: shooting with Beth will be the confidence boost you didn’t know you needed. I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“ At the end of the day, who you are authentically and the way that you show up and the energy you bring, all of that is what sets you apart from everybody else because there's no one like you at all. And so, it's one thing to be like, “Oh my gosh, [the industry is] so focused on the way that I look and all these things,” but it's another thing to also say, “Yeah, but nobody else looks like me, and that's like such a gift.” And so, at a certain level, it's not really about who's the most talented. It's about who's the guy [for the job]. It could be about looks maybe, but a lot of the times it's about energy and the way that you approach whatever you're auditioning for and all the life experience that's been behind you to bring you to this point today and the way that you approach it.”- Beth HawkesMegan Gill: Hey Beth, I'm so excited to have you for this conversation today!Beth Hawkes: I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Megan!Megan Gill: Of course. Do you want to start with just chatting a little bit about yourself and introducing who you are and your work?Beth Hawkes: Yeah. So my name is Beth Hawkes. I'm an LA based actor and photographer. And I have been doing photography professionally for the last five and a half/six years or so. I started in the pandemic because, like so many actors, the entertainment industry was completely at a standstill. And everybody kind of started to think what else do I have besides acting? And photography was the thing that I always loved and I always had done in college and high school, just shooting my friends and having, you know, little photo shoots for free doing their head shots. And then I decided, well, okay, what would it look like if I turned this into a business? And kind of it could be perfect being able to, you know, have control over my schedule and to be able to stay connected in the industry as well.Yeah, and then that's where I met you, which was our program that we did with Ashli Pollard, Square One Accelerator, which was learning how to build your business and create systems to make it as efficient as possible. And I learned a lot, and that really is what launched my photography business. And it's ebbed and flowed over the years for sure. There have been times where I have kind of let it go by the wayside and then times where I've really gone for it. And now, it's really my full-time income, which is great. And yeah. And then here and there I'll, you know, I'll get the acting gig or two and reschedule stuff. And yeah, that's me.Megan Gill: Okay, this is fun because not only are you an actor, someone who uses their physical body for their work, right, but you're also a photographer of a lot of actors and artists and creatives where you're capturing the physicality and the physical bodies of these other actors. So you're kind of really living in this world of dealing with not only maybe your own physical body, but then also others and kind of all of the things that come up when you're shooting people and all of the body stuff around that. So I'm really excited to talk to you about that because I feel you're getting multiple perspectives here.I know we've briefly spoken and we all have a body image story, right. But with your own relationship to your own physical body, but then also getting to be behind the camera and seeing your clients. I'm curious if there's anything that you want to start with as far as your relationship to your own body or things that really come up in a lot of sessions for you that you see just off the top of your head that you want to talk about or bring to light?Beth Hawkes: Yeah. I mean, it feels two separate things in a way. I can really empathize with my clients when they come to me, because I would say 90% of clients come to me and when they're shooting, they'll be like, “Okay, I'm insecure about this,” or “I prefer this side of my face,” or “Oh, okay, keep an eye on my hair. It tends to do this weird thing.” And I empathize with them, but I also am like I never would've noticed or cared about that. And I'll look through the photos and, to me, each side looks the same – of the face – or the pooch that they're worried about in their stomach or something. It's not at all what they think it is in their head. And it looks great and they look amazing. I am constantly like I wish my clients could see themselves the way that I see them, which is just slightly perfectly imperfect. There could be a photo where they look amazing and the focus is perfect and their hair is perfect, but they don't like the way that their leg looks, and so they won't post or choose that photo. And that's such a shame to me because I don't think people – I mean, we all know that no one cares about you as much as you do. No one's really thinking about you as much as you're thinking about yourself. And I'm faced with it constantly in photography.Especially when I'm editing and choosing photos, I'll be culling, and if a client has mentioned, “I really don't like the way that my chin does this,” I will eliminate some of those photos just knowing that they don't like it. And even if it's a photo that I I'm like they're not gonna want to see this. I don't want them to open their session gallery and be like, “Ugh, I hate the way that my –,” you know, even if the photo looks fantastic, I don't want them to be disappointed by the way that they look. So I do take that into account when I'm editing.Yeah, and I also will, I have a few go-to poses that kind of help hide certain insecurities and parts of the body if they want, or that will emphasize parts of the body that they want to emphasize, things that. And it's just interesting because, you know, it's really vulnerable to have your photo taken. And I get it too.As far as my personal journey goes, you know, I've always felt generally happy with my body, and there were times where I've gained weight or lost weight. I haven't really let it affect me too much. I mean, you know, it's tough when your clothes start to fit differently, but I'm usually just like, “Ugh, but my clothes. I don’t want to have to get new ones.” But I definitely get it because if you’re like, “Oh, take a photo of me out and about,” and then I'm like, “Oh, my god, that angle is not flattering on me personally.” And then my friends will do exactly what I do as a photographer, which is say, “What? Really? I never would've noticed. You look great.”So yeah, it's a constant battle with, you know, wanting to help people accept themselves for how they are, and also honoring their feelings about their own body because they're paying me to capture them, and so, I have a job to do at the end of the day.Megan Gill: Yeah, it's not necessarily your weight to carry to show up in therapist mode. Like you said, that's not your job.Beth Hawkes: Yeah.Megan Gill: But it is really beautiful how nuanced your take on capturing your clients is, and I've experienced it myself in working with you. Just how encouraging and empowering you are behind the camera, I think, hopefully allows your clients to show up and maybe not necessarily accept those flaws about themselves or the parts of themselves that they're insecure about, but maybe start to not put so much weight on them. And granted, I feel it does take hearing that time and time again. “I don't even see that. I don't even see that.” And then once you understand the concept of the fact that we are so hyperfocused on the way that our own body looks that, “Oh, my photographer isn't seeing me through the same lens that I'm seeing me?” And, “Oh, my friends aren't seeing me through that same lens either?” I think it's really difficult to come to the place of acknowledging that and being able to understand that sometimes our view of our own bodies and of our own selves is potentially a bit dysmorphic or warped or, you know, our brains like to do silly things and play tricks on us. And I'm glad that you are showing up and riding that fine line, like you said, of being encouraging, but then also honoring each individual client's preference when it comes to their body.Each individual is going to have their own relationship to their own body and their own personal preference in this industry where our bodies are our business cards and the unfortunate truth is that the way we look impacts our work. And that's another thing that I'm just personally exploring this nuance of, wow, we show up and a lot of it is about the way we look, but then also how do we take some of the pressure off of that and how do we kind of lift some of the weight off of that to to free ourselves up and not put so much pressure on ourselves to look a certain way or to look “perfect” or to look like, you know, the people maybe we're seeing in the media, the people we're seeing on that TV show we want to be on.Beth Hawkes: Yeah. That is so interesting that you bring that up because, at the end of the day, that's my whole goal with my business. I don't do headshots. I can do them if you want them, but I do personality photos, more editorial style.So my ideal client is somebody that has a headshot that's great that they use constantly and that gets them into amazing rooms, but they want to beef up their portfolio, or maybe they're looking for new reps and they want to be able to show their real personality, you know, who they are on their best day without being like, “Okay, this is my ingenue look and this is my procedural look and this is my –,” you know? Those headshots are really useful and we do need them as actors, but you know, you're not really thinking about you on your best day. You're thinking about who would I be on a procedural and who would I be on a medical show and whatever.My clients come to me – and this generally is what happens – and they're like I just want to have photos that look like me. I love this top, I love the way it makes me look, or I love this dress. It’s crazy. I never get to wear it. I wanted some photos in it, something like that. Or I usually hang out in a white t-shirt and blue jeans, and that's what I want photos of and that's what I strive to capture is people on their best day looking their best.Megan Gill: Expressing themselves in the way that is true and authentic to them, which ultimately, as artists, is what we all hope to be able to get booked for.Beth Hawkes: Mm-hmm. Yes. Because at the end of the day, you can't change who you are. And it comes to, like you said, taking the pressure off of this problem that's just inherent and unavoidable in this business. That's kind of my way of doing it, which is it's bonus photos for you. And a lot of the times my clients use my photos as headshots. They'll crop it in a little closer because they're like, “I just look like me,” and that's the best thing. And the way that I like to try to bring that out of people is by complimenting them the whole photo shoot. And it's all genuine. It's not like I'm lying. One of my favorite things is to just compliment people in real life or tell them the things I about them, and that just gives people so much confidence, and on top of me being aware of their insecurities or, you know, I'm guiding the session and putting them in poses so they don't have to think too hard and they can just settle and be themselves and listen to direction and interpret it however they want. That’s, I’ve found, the way to make people look the best on camera is when they're feeling the best, which seems so obvious, but I think a lot of photographers could get carried away with, you know, obviously the lighting is the most important thing. So lighting, settings, all the tech stuff and getting everything perfect, that the relationship between the photographer and the subject kind of gets pushed down on the list. And really my first goal, besides taking the photos, taking good photos, right next to that is having a good relationship with my client and making them feel comfortable.Megan Gill: Yeah. It's so, so, so, so, so important. And also hearing you say that you want your clients to be able to show up as their best selves and that that ultimately helps them look the best and when they're feeling confident and empowered. And then I'm also thinking when you are looking your best, you're also, in my opinion, expressing your most authentic self and expressing these beautiful parts of you that sometimes don't come out in a headshot session.Beth Hawkes: How many times have you, has everybody, when they book a headshot session with a headshot photographer, they go out and buy clothes for that session. With most of my clients, I can tell they're well-worn clothes that they bring that they wear constantly.Megan Gill: Which is just so beautiful to me. Because I think it is so important, specifically as actors, to reflect that and to use your clothes and what you feel most comfortable in in your shots. And oh, my gosh, I have, I worked with you multiple times now, and all of our sessions, I just walked away from feeling exactly how you just said you wanted your clients to feel. And it does feel really good and it feels fun to be able to look at these photos of myself that are so truly me and truly, fully capture my essence that it's interesting for me – oh, I think it's so hard as anybody, but also as actors and performing artists to not get the photos back and be like, “Oh my gosh, I love these because I love the way I look.”Beth Hawkes: Totally. Totally.Megan Gill: Don’t get me wrong. Our last session, I think we shot in April. I got those photos back and I was like, “Oh yes, this fit? Love. My hair? I love it. Oh yeah, my makeup looks really good. I look really good. I really like the way I look.” It's hard to not do that. But then what overrode me liking the way that I visually looked in the photos was how much me, who I truly am as a person, and my essence is shining through in these photos. And that to me is everything because you don't get that a lot, and I think that actors aren't given a lot of opportunities – granted, I have also done a decent amount of modeling and I think more so I don't know in that world, if you're doing your own shoots and shooting with people like you and showing up to not just do headshot shoots, you get more time to play around with this type of stuff. But it's so, so, so important because then also if your clients are looking at these photos of themselves that feel very them and true to them, well, that's also just a confidence boost as far as, you know, maybe feeling a little bit more confident in their skin or feeling confident about the way that they look in these photos. Granted, it would be awesome if we took, again, a lot of the pressure off how we look. But also it's hard to escape when you're in an industry that is based off of that.Beth Hawkes: Exactly. It's near impossible, but also that's what gets you jobs too. At the end of the day is who you are authentically and, you know, the way that you show up and the energy you bring, all of that is what sets you apart from everybody else, because there's no one you at all. And so, it's one thing to be like, “Oh my gosh, it's so focused on the way that I look and all these things.” But it's another thing to also say, “Yeah, but nobody else looks like me, and that's such a gift.” And so, at a certain level, it's not really about who's the most talented. It's about who's, who's the guy, who's that person. And it could be about looks maybe, but a lot of the times it's about, you know, energy and the way that you approach whatever you're auditioning for and all the life experience that's been behind you to bring you to this point today and the way that you approach it.I did an episode of Chicago Med, and my character was struggling with – she was worried that this tumor she had would be cancerous, and she didn't know, and she was too scared to find out. And I remember when I got the audition, right before then, my dad had found out that he could potentially have kidney cancer and we didn't know for sure, and it was insane timing. Thankfully, he's fine, but insane timing because I was very viscerally close to that sort of conflict because I was like, wow, this is how my dad was feeling, is feeling. And I just had so much empathy, and I felt so close to it. And I booked it, and then I kept thinking, I mean, it's not that I'm not good or whatever. That experience, I had such a deepening of understanding that it was just circumstantial. You can't help that. I'm sure everybody else that auditioned was fantastic as well, but it's just things like that are out of your control that lead you to book, you know? And it didn't say redhead, it didn't say curly hair. It said any ethnicity, this age, and that was it.Megan Gill: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that's a beautiful example of how it isn't all about how you look, and I agree that it isn't all about our appearance, right? And I don't want it to be that. But I know that sometimes as performing artists, we can go there. So thank you for sharing that because that is so true. There are so many other elements of our work that make us who we are and allow us to relate with character and show up to this work.Beth Hawkes: Yeah, isn't it funny though that we focus more on how we look than we do that part of it? That is so not the first thing at all. When you get book, you get a casting director workshop, you're gonna go, and the first thing you think besides your scene is what am I gonna wear?Megan Gill: Yeah. Totally. Totally. How do we find this nice, juicy, healthy middle ground and maybe enjoying the appearance aspects of our work, but then also really not harping so much on that so that we have a bit more energy to put into the meat of the work?I know for me, growing up in the music theater world and studying music theater in college, so much emphasis was placed on how I look. From what I was eating to how I was moving my body that day to what I was wearing to class to what I was wearing to rehearsal or whatever, that I didn't put a lot of energy into my actual work. And I had this recognition after school, once I had kind of started going down this body image journey of, “Whoa, everything, almost everything, nearly everything had tied back to my appearance versus actually taking the time to really dive into this musical, or dive into my deepening work as an actor. Which is just, it's just disheartening, and I do hope that we continue to become more well-rounded in that aspect, and to try to hopefully encourage others to place less pressure on the appearance side of this work we do. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, yes, it is important to see people that look like you in media and to see differing bodies and differing abilities in the media. It's so, so, so important. But at the end of the day, the stories we're telling aren't necessarily all about how these people look. Some stories might be, but you know?Beth Hawkes: Yeah, totally. And also it's interesting with theater versus film and tv, you know, with theater, your whole body is on display the whole time, and with film and TV, you know, you might get a wide shot or this or that. And then camera angles, camera focal lengths, they all change the way that you look. They're like, “The camera adds 10 pounds.“ Well, it depends on what lens you're using and what angle you're at and all these things. But with theater, it's a whole different thing.Yeah, I remember when I was in a show right before the pandemic here I had this little outfit that was so cute. I had sparkle-pink Go-Go boots, which were so cute. I had sparkle-pink little hot pants, little shorts, teeny tiny shorts and then a crop top and a cute vest over it. And I remember constantly fidgeting with my mic pack belt and my shorts to make sure that it hit the exact point and worried that, you know, something would slip and then something would bulge out when I was onstage and all these things, and it was so much noise because I was onstage in front of everyone. I mean, you know, there were people – there's 600 seats, and they're all staring at you and your body the whole time, full length. So that adds a completely other layer, theater versus, because I also was trained in theater and that was you know, it's a full body contact sport.Megan Gill: That's such a good way to put it. Oh my gosh. And how interesting too, because yes, film and TV, you are still on display. In classes, you know, on camera, yes, you're still being seen in your tapes, this and that. But such an interesting experience to grow up in the theater world and to have experience in the theater world. Because it is full body you learn a lot of this conditioning from the industry and from our culture about your body. And because it is the full thing on display at all times, like you said.Beth Hawkes: Yeah, and also with deciding what to wear and what flatters your body the best, all these things. I've been a reader for a lot of auditions and nobody – it really doesn't matter what you wear, I mean, to a certain extent, right? But people would come in for the same role and one person would be wearing a t-shirt and jeans, another person would be wearing a blazer, another person would be wearing, you know, dirty sneakers. I remember being like, “I can't believe how much, it doesn't matter what everyone's wearing,” because I futz over what I'm gonna wear all the time. And I’ll put together an outfit that I would never actually wear in real life because I feel it flatters this or it looks a certain way or it gives more this or that. And it's like, oh, no one actually cares. You have to be able to do the work, and they'll put you in whatever clothes that they'll put you in. And it's just, I just found that so interesting that the last thing I'm paying attention to is what these people are wearing coming in and auditioning.Megan Gill: Right, which is a good point because that makes me think, well, if it doesn't ultimately matter, right, then why are we not wearing clothes that we just feel good in? Kind of like the way your clients show up to shoot with you. Wear something you like, wear something you feel good in that's gonna allow you to not be in the hot pants and the cute go-go boots and be fussing with stuff and feel stuffy or uncomfortable, unless it lends itself to character. Finding the wardrobe that is just going to support you so that you can fully show up to do the work and not have to be in that cycle in your head. Yeah, so important.Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Also too, a lot of the clients that I've worked with are moms or they had recently given birth or something, and they are constantly like, “Well, I want to wear this because my boobs are different now, and I want to do oversized so that dah dah, dah, dah, dah.” And that is one of the hardest things to kind of navigate because I'm like I can't relate because I don't have children, but the feeling of your body changing and it, in many ways, not being yours anymore and having to share it and having to make that sacrifice.And then they'll be like, “Well, I'm going in for a bunch of these roles now because, you know, now I have a kid and things are different and I've grown a lot and all these things.” And I'm like that's amazing. I don't know, I think it's whatever body you're in, it doesn't really matter. It opens. You know, wherever you're at in your life, the opportunities are gonna come, and they're gonna be perfect for wherever you're at.Megan Gill: Yeah, I agree with that. There seems to be so much resistance around change in general, which I get it, you know? But then when it comes to your changing body and then how that then affects your work or the roles that you're going out for, or the work that you're booking or not booking, it has a big impact, and I understand the weight of that, but also how can we kind of just lean into that?Because I'm of the same mind as you. I think it's exciting. New opportunity! But then also I'm not there, and I am not a mother, and I do not have a body that has given birth. And so, therefore, it's like, okay, well, I can't really speak to that. But my hope is that if and when I come to that (for myself) and/or with other people who are experiencing that right now, that we can kind of just loosen the grip and have more of this radical acceptance when It comes to our bodies, which is fucking hard.Beth Hawkes: It’s so hard. It’s so much easier said than done. It's insane, because I look at people who have given birth or they're like, “Oh, I'm insecure about this.” I never ever would've thought that, or I never noticed a difference, honestly. You're still the same beautiful person that you were before or whatever. And yeah, there is so much. But the truth is, you will never be the same because, you know, you're in a new chapter now, whether you're a mother or whether you have, you know – it's not exclusive to motherhood. It's whatever phase of life you're in, you're never gonna be the person in the past anymore.Do you ever look back at photos of yourself and you're like, “Oh, my god, I was so insecure about myself, and I look great. Why was I so –?” or “I thought I looked so big in this photo, and I looked so regular and great. What the hell?” It's just crazy how your own mind can play tricks on you in that way. It's so powerful.Megan Gill: It's so, so true, which is why I think having more awareness around how we talk to our bodies and how we view our bodies is so important, specifically as performing artists where maybe you're standing in front of a mirror or you're in dance class, or you're just self-taping all the time and you're just seeing yourself all the time. Ugh, yeah, it's really important to just be kind to yourself and to understand that there's so much more going on underneath the surface of what you see about your body. And yeah. I just hope that more of us artists can open their eyes up to there being a different way when it comes to relating to your body, you know, and that we don't have to beat ourselves up all the time. We don't have to feel such shame about these parts of our bodies that we feel insecure about, which is such hard work, and it does take a lot of time and effort and energy, which sucks.Beth Hawkes: Yeah, totally. And what do you usually say? What are your tips for people to overcome that? Or do we have – I'm so curious because, as a photographer, I can compliment people all I want, but I'm like how can I go deeper?Megan Gill: So I think a lot about how I work with myself right now, because a lot of the work that I've been doing is navigating my own feelings and my own journey in relation to my body. I think that there's this loop, this spiral that I can get stuck in a lot, right?And I think a lot of us go there where you see something you don't know about your body, and then you just spiral from there. “Well, what about this?” And, “Oh, am I gaining weight? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And it's how do we stop that spiral and bring ourselves back to the present moment, back into our body, back to a more embodied part of ourselves. I've gotten to a place where I'm pretty good at being able to stop and pull myself out of that and being able to use my movement practice to be like, “Okay, we're gonna move our body hopefully once a day in this way or that way,” and just do things that bring us back instead of let us sit in our thinking mind.So I'm trying to think, for you, I don't know if it would be something with movement when you know, you're in a studio with a client and they have the ability to kind of move around and, you know, kind of shake it off. How do we get ourselves out of our thinking brain and back into our body so that we can, you know, kind of quiet the noise?Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Self-talk is so important. I think about that with acting, how I have gotten so much better at talking myself out of a spiral because, during the pandemic, especially when things were slow, I would talk myself into a spiral and be like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't booked this in so long, and I haven't done this, and I have these many credits, and this person has this many, and I'm whatever.” And now I'm able to much better – because it is a practice, it's a muscle to be able to get better at being like, “No, everything's fine. You are okay. You have so many things going for you. You have this, this, and this, and let's focus on that because focusing on the bad is not gonna do anything positive for you at all.” But it took me five years to be able to get to this point of being able to talk myself out of a spiral.Megan Gill: Yes, I can relate with you on that. It takes a long effing time, so it's not something that's just gonna happen magically overnight. But also something else that I think that could go along with this working on our self-talk and bringing ourselves back into our body through embodiment practices that work for you, but then also looking at the facts. The simple fact of if you are standing this one second and then the next second, in two different positions (hunched over or hands on your hips, chest proud), your body looks different in each position. So the simple fact of how you hold your body determines how it shows up in a photo, right?Beth Hawkes: Yes.Megan Gill: So I think these reminders are so, so, so helpful. And that is just a simple fact, just the way it is!Beth Hawkes: Yeah.Megan Gill: Just like how your body can change from one day to the next based on so many factors that are out of your control. So I think that the more we remind ourselves and /or our clients or our friend that's maybe down about how her jeans are fitting today. I just think it's really important to come back to these factual things when it comes to our bodies.I had a girlfriend the other day who was in jeans and she was like, “Oh they're so tight, and I'm just so uncomfortable.” I have been there so many times myself.Beth Hawkes: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.Megan Gill: I was “Are you wearing a bodysuit?” She was like “Yes.” Bingo! That does it for me every time. So it's kind of like that's a fact. You know, if you're wearing another layer of material underneath your jeans, they're going to fit a little bit tighter, right? Instead of thinking, “My body's bad. Oh, no, now the way that Beth is gonna capture me is gonna be bad because I feel bad in these jeans.” It's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's pull ourselves outta the spiral and look at all these factors here, you know?Beth Hawkes: Totally. Yeah, looking at the facts for sure. That helps so much. The fact is, my clothes still fit. That's the fact. And yeah, that's really, really helpful. And also the fact is too, it's not that serious. It's just not. And it's really a practice to zoom out a little bit more and remember, “Oh, my god, I'm healthy and I'm able to go to workout classes and not have a problem. I'm able to walk around and get myself places. And that is the beauty of having a body.”Megan Gill: Oh my god. Absolutely. We have to show ourselves gratitude and remind ourselves how lucky we are to be able to live the lives we have because of our bodies, like you said, oh my gosh, it's so, so, so vital. Yeah.Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Not everybody is able to get to that – I remember times where I was really low or fighting depression, and I was really not able to zoom out and do that. And so, yeah, that is a practice, but it's also realistic to know that it might not be – you have to be in the right place to be able to zoom it out and go there. And it's just like you can't make someone change until they want to change. You can't make someone stop smoking. They have to decide to stop smoking and they have to get to that point and be ready. And so, yeah, that's the lifelong journey of this thing is being sometimes you just have to wait until you're ready.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And for going back to your work in the studio with clients, you might have a client that walks in (right? I'm sure.) who doesn't want to hear it.Beth Hawkes: Who don't believe me or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you do have to meet people where they're at. It's so important. But then also I think that just by nature of the way you approach your work and the way that you show up in the studio and with the people you work with, you're gonna have an impact on them too, which is just such a beautiful reminder that yes, sometimes, ourselves included and other people, get stuck in – we're under a dark cloud, and sometimes it's hard to frickin’ hard to see out of the dark cloud. But if somebody in your orbit does something that allows you to just part the sea just for one second, it could make a big impact. Yeah, which I just think is lovely.Beth Hawkes: Totally. Thank you for those such kind words. I appreciate it. Because that's all I want. I remember before I really – I was thinking about starting my business, but I hadn't really gotten it off the ground yet, and I booked a photo shoot for exactly the kind of thing that I provide for my clients. I wanted to try and find a photographer that's gonna do what I wanted to, and because I also needed photos. And so, I booked this photographer, and she was completely silent behind the camera and just didn't give me any direction. And I remember I was so excited for this photoshoot. I came in with all these cute outfits, and as the session wore on, I was starting to really question myself because I wasn't getting any sort of direction or feedback. I remember just feeling so insecure and not feeling myself or grounded or any of that, and I was like I never ever want my clients to feel that way when they're shooting with me because, again, it's, it's not that serious. We're just taking pictures. You know, we're all in a frickin’ floating rock in the sky or in space. It's not that serious. We don't have to hang onto these things with an iron grip. When you start to loosen your grip and just breathe and show up authentically, that is where I see differences in how sessions come out. When there's somebody hanging on and really having a hard time relinquishing control and accepting the fact that they are gonna be captured the way that they are today. The difference between that and the people that show up and are like, “Whatever you want! I'm good. I really love this dress. I love this pose. I want to get kind of this stuff. But other than that, take it away,” you know, “I'm good,” those shoots are the ones where you can just feel they come out really special. It's almost like the light hits them differently. It's very interesting. It's crazy. The amount of editing I have to do is less. The way that they absorb the light is different. It's so interesting. Yeah, and also those people that are comfortable enough to take some risks and try a different pose, try something weird, that's where you get the really special photos.Megan Gill: I love that. Thanks for sharing that, Beth. I have one last question for you before we wrap up. I'm wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body is? It can be physical, non-physical, a combination of both. Whatever strikes you.Beth Hawkes: My favorite thing about my body. That's such a great question. I think my favorite thing about my body is kind of two-pronged, they kind of tie in. The first is my strength. I've been lifting the last year-and-a-half, two years. To be able to feel strong and lift heavy things and use it in my day-to-day life, and lifting heavy things on top of the fridge or pulling out heavy photography equipment or being able to get into different positions to get a shot, all those things, that's one of my favorite things about my body. And also the way that I move through space, the way that I wear clothes and move through space, I really like that about my body. I love clothes, I love fashion, I love style, and I find a lot of it is the way that you wear them, not necessarily the garments themselves, but how you wear them. And I wear my clothes and my clothes don't wear me.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oof, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing.Beth Hawkes: Thank you so much for having me, Megan. This was amazing.Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you for coming to chat with me today.Beth Hawkes: I just love all the work that you're doing and I think it's really important, and you should be so, so proud of yourself.Megan Gill: Well, don't make me cry, Beth! Thank you. And same back to you. Truly. I'm so glad. That LA has you photographing them, and I can't wait for more and more artists to shoot with you and be able to have the experience of having more of their true essence captured on camera.Beth Hawkes: Thank you!“ When you start to loosen your grip and just breathe and show up authentically, like that is where I see differences in how sessions come out. When there's somebody hanging on and really having a hard time relinquishing control and accepting the fact that they are gonna be captured the way that they are today, the difference between that and the people that show up and are like, “Whatever you want! I'm good! I really love this dress, I love this pose. I wanna get kind of this stuff. But other than that, take it away. You know, like, I'm good,” those shoots are the ones where you can just feel they come out really special. It's almost like the light hits them differently. It's very interesting. It's crazy the amount of editing I have to do is less. The way that they absorb the light is different. It's so interesting. Yeah. And also those people that are comfortable enough to take some risks and try a different pose, try something weird, that's where you get the really special photos.”- Beth HawkesBeth Hawkes is an LA based actor, photographer, and founder of Mariposa Pictures. As a photographer, Beth specializes in capturing authentic portraits of actors and creatives in ways that feel honest yet editorial and round out their materials to "make you look famous before you are". Beth set out to fill a hole in the market by making editorial-style photography accessible to working-class actors to help elevate their materials in a time where PR and marketing yourself is becoming more important than ever.On the acting side, Beth is a graduate of the School of Drama at UNCSA and has been seen in Chicago Med, Marvel's Runaways, Liza on Demand with Liza Koshy, and on stage at The Old Globe and Geffen Playhouse in various productions. Beth knows firsthand what it means to be on both sides of the camera, which gives her a unique perspective on building a creative career, juggling running a business while also chasing her dreams, and staying inspired in an industry full of highs and lows.Beth’s WebsiteFollow Beth on Instagram!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow Wichita State alumni Maddie Mason, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Maddie is a dance teacher and choreographer based in Oklahoma City, OK. We’d attended university at the same time and danced in many a class together, and I was thrilled to have a conversation with her!The way Maddie speaks about showing up to the dance spaces she leads is of the utmost importance if we want to shift outdated narratives about dancers’ bodies. Not only is her lens as a dance teacher and choreographer so needed in today’s dance world, she’s also a mom. Hearing her talk about how she shows up around her kids and ensures to not talk down about other people’s bodies in front of them gives me hope for our future generations to come. Maddie is a gem of a person, and I cannot wait for you to hear our discussion around body image and dance!“ Like you said, in “Cabaret,” the ensemble member was wearing the exact same costume, and they probably created a costume for her, the exact same design as everybody else. Instead of, I don't know how many times it was, “Here's the box. Here's the costumes. Find one that you fit in.” And there was a time in college where I was like, “I don't fit into any of these, so either I have to find a different costume, or I'm not in this piece, or I have to work to fit into a costume.” It’s stuff like that that is treating people with humility. And as an artist, I don't feel like we grew up learning that or feeling like we deserved that. And now that we're grownups, we can change that and make sure we're in spaces where that is not happening, where that's not the culture.”- Maddie MasonMegan Gill: Hi, Maddie! Thank you for being with me here today for this conversation. I'm so excited to talk.Maddie Mason: Thank you for having me, Megan.Megan Gill: Of course! Do you wanna start by just introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about the work that you do in the world today?Maddie Mason: Yeah, so my name is Maddie Mason. I am 35 years old. I am originally from Wichita, Kansas. I graduated from college with a BFA in Dance Performance. From there, I worked at the college level, worked with kids in studios. I've done choreography workshops. We've done workshops! But in 2019, my husband and I moved to Vegas, and I taught dance out there at studios until COVID, and then everything changed. But now we live in Oklahoma City. We love it. We're getting settled, and yeah, I'm still teaching dance and kind of freelancing here and there.Megan Gill: I love that. We love the freelancer life. And we went to school together during the same time. We were both in adjacent programs at our same college. That is where we met in our origin story. So we have a lot of the same community and come from a similar collegiate educational background too.Maddie Mason: Yes. Yeah, I think we both – I think it was, I don't know, modern or jazz that we were in together, but we had a lot of mutual friends, and so it was I knew you, you knew me, and then we got to dance together.Megan Gill: Yeah, and I was always that music theater kid that was taking random dance classes that I didn't need to take. Like I think I would just show up and not even be enrolled!Maddie Mason: You were! You would take everything. You'd be like, okay, hip hop this semester. I'm pretty sure we took tap a couple times together. There were a lot of tap memories there.Megan Gill: Probably.Maddie Mason: Oh, yeah. Good times. It feels like a lifetime. It's just wild.Megan Gill: Good times, it really does. It’s pretty wild.Maddie Mason: We're all grown up now. All the lessons we’ve learned.Megan Gill: It's crazy. Okay, so you grew up in the dance world. Have you just been dancing your whole entire life? I know you mentioned that your mom and your aunt were both dancers in the eighties, so I imagine that you just came out of the womb in dance classes.Maddie Mason: Honestly, yeah. My mom taught with me. My parents opened up the studio in, I think it was ‘86 or ‘87, and my mom taught pregnant with me up until the day before I was born. So I've been there the whole time and it's so cute because I got to do that with my daughter too. So I got to teach with her and my belly up until the day before she was born. So it's kind of a generational thing. But yeah, my daycare, nursery was in the studio in the back room, and it's kind of just I really had no choice. It was just what we did, you know? My mom wasn't gonna pay a babysitter. She was gonna stick me in ballet class.And so, I've never known a world without dance, which gives me, I think, an interesting perspective. Instead of people who find their passion for it, I think mine grew, for sure, and there have been so many ups and downs that it's just been an interesting ride from the very beginning.Megan Gill: Yeah, this thing that you just came into and this way of life that you didn't know any differently. Did it take you time to – did you kind of resist it at points or were there times where you were like, “I don't love this”? Is that what you were talking about?Maddie Mason: Oh yeah. I think in elementary school was the first time it was all my friends were joining Girl Scouts, and that seemed really fun. But my mom owned a dance studio, so it was like, “Well, after school we pick you up when we go to the studio.”So I felt like I did miss out on normal kids activities. So I did, in elementary school, see a lot of friends doing different stuff that I did want to maybe get into. But dance was always the main focus, and I don't think it was until maybe eighth grade that it clicked for me and I was like, “Oh, I love this. I wanna do this.” And I've always wanted to be a teacher from the very beginning. I mean, every little girl dreams of being a dancer. And in middle school it was like, “Oh, I wanna be a Britney Spears backup dancer.” And then, you know, it was the first time I think I had gotten a scholarship for the next year, and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I just idolized those teachers and was like I want to make people feel like how they made me feel.So I think from the beginning and having my mom as a teacher, seeing that side of things just kind of I knew that was the path I wanted to take, but, no, as a kid, it's confusing, and you're like, “How am I gonna get here?”Megan Gill: Totally. I love that. I'm curious, as someone, obviously when you're a dancer or a dance teacher, you spend a lot of time in front of the mirror, right? So obviously growing up in dance – I also grew up in the dance world, you just learn that looking at yourself in the mirror is a way of life also.Maddie Mason: Yeah.Megan Gill: That is how you self-correct. That's how you check your form. It’s such a tool, but I also feel like it this thing that can lead some people to a very dark place when it comes to their body image. I'm curious how growing up in front of the mirror in dance impacted your body image from a young age and how growing up in that space affected you as far as how you saw yourself and related to your body.Maddie Mason: Yeah, so I always, as a child, never really gave it a thought. My sister has always been bigger than I am. And so, she got a lot of the brunt of when it came to, “Oh, here's what you should eat. Here's what you shouldn't eat.” My mom came from the eighties high-cut leotard Spandex days where it was like we have a cigarette and a Diet Coke for lunch, and that's it.And so, we grew up – you know, my mom always with the fad diets, at a young age, hearing about all that and looking at how my mom treated that whole world and her own body. I saw it. I think my sister experienced a lot more of that trauma. A lot of it was aimed at her a little more because I had a higher metabolism than she did. We ate the same things, we had the same diet, the same routine. We were just different. And that was hard for my mom too. It was hard for her to have a kid who wasn't just naturally thin from the get go.And so, my mom also had to work kind of at the body she has in a different way. So she was like, “I did this. When I gained weight as a kid, this is what I did to fix it, and you can fix it too. You just have to not eat this or this.”So all of that was aimed at my sister, but I was definitely observing it and listening and taking it in. It didn't really hit me, I guess, until I graduated high school because I had danced my whole life growing up. I was always active, always dancing constantly. I didn't give a second thought to my nutrition, really. When I got to high school age, I mean, I could feed myself.So I gained weight right after high school. I mean, lots of people do. And it was like that summer, right after high school, I'd had a little freedom. I didn't have to dance that summer. It was the first time I think I'd been given a break ever.Megan Gill: Wow.Maddie Mason: So I ate, I slept, I drank, and I gained a lot of weight. And for me it was, “Oh no.” I remember it being such a terrifying feeling because growing up, this is the worst thing that could happen to you. How dare you be comfortable and relax. And it was always, “You gotta be on top of it. You gotta be strict.”So that’s my background there, but then again, I remember hanging out with these two boys that I went to school with and they were saying, I don't know. They had mentioned something about my weight, and I kind of brushed it off and it was whatever. So I go to ballet school right after high school. This is my summer break, and then I enrolled in a private college, and it was a strict ballet program. We only had 30 minutes to tap, 30 minutes of jazz a week. And I don't know what I was thinking because it was totally not for me, but it was a strict ballet program, so I immediately lost all the weight I had gained over the summer, not in a healthy way because my instructor was going by the bar and patting my belly. But I remember those same boys seeing me and going, “Oh, thank god you lost that weight because you were kind of getting big there for a second, but you lost it all, so…” And I was like, “Oh, okay.”So I think that was the first time – you know, the ballet teacher, the strict old-school ballet teacher combined with getting comments from boys from my school, it was just like, “Oh, okay. So people have noticed that I've gained weight, they are talking about me, and my worth is definitely based on how I look and what weight I'm at.” And so, that kind of started a lot of things, a lot of different emotions, a lot of feelings. I felt like I was in control of myself for the first time. I was 18. I was in college, but I had no idea what I was doing. I couldn't handle my emotions. I didn't know what to eat. All I knew was to not eat. If you wanna lose weight, just don't eat. So confusing.Megan Gill: Which is like the the worst thing you could possibly do for your body when you are moving as much as you were.Maddie Mason: Oh, yeah. And not only at that point was I getting it from my mom, but my teachers. I mean, my mom was friends with the teachers, so it was just that old-school mentality of, I mean, you know, “Eat an apple a day, and you'll be fine,” or like grab a grape and an almond, and keep going,” which is insane, absolutely insane.Megan Gill: Yeah. It's insane. I fully agree.Maddie Mason: Which, I feel like the last ten years we've kind of gotten away from that. I've seen a shift for sure, but I said to a coworker recently because her daughter was in a ballet class, and the teacher had made a comment, and I had kind of known what teacher it was, and she's an older woman, an incredible teacher, very world renowned. But it's that old-school mentality that that older generation, I hope that we're phasing out of, no offense to them because we've learned everything from that generation, but also let's take all that and do better.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely agree with you on that. There is a different way, I know that there's the saying, “They're set in their ways. The older generations are never gonna change.” Like with my parents, I've accepted they're not gonna change unless they want to change. So it's this fine line of how do we start trying to shift that narrative for the older generations, with the older generations, because they are still teaching and they are still in educational spaces. And I know for us at Wichita State, there were a lot of older professors, and the age gap is so vast. So how do we bridge this gap and try to help them see that there is a different way and that the industry is changing and shifting, ooh, because it is so harmful.Maddie Mason: It is, and it's shifting so fast too. I mean, I graduated in ‘16, and I remember we didn't come out of college with a reel, with any work that we could actually show. It all belonged to the college, which I understand copyrights and all of that. But we weren't prepared, I don't think, to come out and – it's kind of how I felt as an 18-year-old going out into the world. They prepare you for a world that really doesn't exist anymore.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh gosh, that is so true. And I can very much relate from like the music theater standpoint as well. So it's not only like shifting these outdated narratives about bodies and how to care for your body as a mover, as a dancer, as a performer, but also how are we showing up in this ever-changing industry as well. That’s such a good point.Maddie Mason: It's mind-boggling sometimes. And COVID changed everything. We were all online all of a sudden, and that could do a number of things to you mentally. It could motivate you, or it could hinder you. It’s kind of that whole new world thing. And now it's changed even more, which is good and bad. It’s good because I follow dance accounts for girls who are all shapes and sizes, and it really exposes us to everybody really can dance. You don't have to be stick thin. No matter your ability or size or shape or anything, everybody can move, and everybody deserves that space, and it's nice that social media showcases that for sure. But it depends on your algorithm. Sometimes it's the opposite. We’ve gotta get the algorithm right. We’ve gotta get the motivation, the positive stuff, because it has turned into – there is that other side where it's like, “Oh gosh.” You can look at these Russian three-year-olds who are like en pointe or lifting their leg up to their head, and you can compare yourself all day long, but it's a slippery slope.Megan Gill: Totally. But it is really cool to see how the world of social media has opened our eyes a little bit to these different ways of just real life being represented in the spaces like dance, the dance world, and on Broadway, in the acting world, just all of these different things. It's like what are we doing here? We're representing real life and through our performance.And specifically with dance, in an industry where you are, more than anything, taught to be thin and taught that thin is good, it's so important to support the narrative-change that anybody can dance and anybody should dance, and there should be space for anybody with a body to be able to dance.Maddie Mason: Anybody with a body! Yeah, I mean, you think about movies, if there's an old woman in a movie, it's usually played by an old woman. It's not always a young person dressed as an old person. You see movers in a commercial, if somebody's walking down the street and they start dancing, you're gonna spot a ballet dancer right away. But normal bodies can move, and normal bodies represent the majority.Megan Gill: Right, and normal bodies can also do ballet.Maddie Mason: Yes, yes, yes, yes.Megan Gill: Which is also just maybe the worst – not worst, but I think the hardest place where like shifting the lens exist or the hardest place to kind of change the way we –Maddie Mason: Oh, my gosh, I find myself still catching myself. I mean, I just said “Ballet Body” and every body's a ballet body, but your mind goes to it out of just habit and from knowing what you know and growing up in it. But I hope that in the future, I say “Ballet Body” and everybody just thinks of everybody.Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow, that's such a good point and interesting to hear you say about “Ballet Body” because obviously, as a dancer, I understand what you mean, and that's kind of where this phrase, a “Broadway Body” came from too. It's the same thing. It’s same same but different. It's like a “Ballet Body,” a “Broadway Body.” These industries that traditionally represent a certain type of body type being the one that's front and center and featured in the performances. And yeah, yeah, it's so great that we are making strides in our slow but sure ways of moving away from thatAnd hopefully – as someone who is leading these spaces for these younger generations that are in dance, I am curious to hear the ways in which you show up to those spaces, and if there are any things that you do differently or just the way that you lead your classes and lead your workshops and the way that you show up to support these young dancers, to be a voice, to shift that narrative and to teach them the opposite of kind of what you were taught.Maddie Mason: Yeah, I think I became aware of it when I was in middle school/high school, and I knew I wanted to be a teacher, and one of the main motivations for me was, “Okay, I've had some really bad teachers, and I've had teachers who didn't make me feel welcome or didn't make everybody feel welcome or didn't make you feel good after their class or after the week. I think I so desperately wanted a teacher to motivate and to love me no matter what and to really say, “What do you want out of this? And let's work on it together.” So I was aware of that as a young person.As I got older, towards the end of college when I really started teaching, at that point, I'd had the education. We'd taken anatomy. We'd taken dance kinesiology. So making sure that I approached everything from just an anatomical standpoint. So it's, “Your bones are here. Your muscles are here. This is how your body works. Let's talk about that and not about your metabolism or about how high your leg is right now, naturally. Let's work on it together. Let's find a path,” and work with what you have.Growing up, a lot of the focus was just, “Where is this line? How high can your leg get?” But I don't think I was ever using the correct muscles or using the right intention. And so, getting into teaching, I just definitely wanted to make sure that we were talking about our bodies from a factual, scientific standpoint and not somebody's opinion on what it should look like. So if we're doing a move, this is what it should feel like in these muscles, not anything else. Just stick to the facts, and I don't ever comment on a student's body. I don't ever. Even people in general, I don't ever comment on a weight gain or a weight loss because you just don't know. You really just don't know. Just say, “You look amazing,” or just, I don't know.My mom, bless her soul. I love her to death, but it's the first thing that is commented on, and it's just, oh, I don't want anybody to feel like their worth is that because I know how that feels, and it doesn't do anybody any good.Megan Gill: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I have a similar story specifically when it comes to the way that boys talked about my body when I was in high school and the messaging that I received socially about my body, and it's like when you've been there and when you have experienced that firsthand, you really, really know how it feels. And even the comments – because I love my mom so much as well, and she doesn't mean any harm by it, but she's, I mean, the same way. As of course my weight fluctuated throughout my life, she make comments about it too, and it's really not good. It's really unhealthy to praise the weight loss. Not that we're deeming one more damaging than the other, but that is so, so, so damaging to the psyche of the person who has lost the weight, whether it's, what is it? What's the word? It's like they're receiving this conditioning that's like, “Yeah, I need to keep going. I need to keep doing this because this equals good.”Maddie Mason: Oh, absolutely.Megan Gill: “Losing weight equals good. Gaining weight equals bad.”Maddie Mason: Mm-hmm. I'm also hyper-aware of it now that I have kids because it's just, not even saying it to them, if they hear me say anything about anybody ever, that's what they hear and that's what they think people's worth is. They hear me go, “Oh my gosh,” or talking behind people's backs or just making little comments about people's appearances. That's the stuff I grew up with. And so, you get conditioned after a certain point to think, “Okay, well that's what everybody's thinking. So I know I've gained weight, and if I heard a comment from one person, ugh, obviously it's not one person. Everybody's gotta be thinking it.” And then it can spiral from there. But just making sure that I don't pass that on to my children and or my students or anybody. Just hoping that I never make anybody feel like that ever. That's my goal. It's just dance for joy and dance because it feels good and not because you feel like you have to be something.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, that is a word. Drop the mic right now. Like really and truly! And especially as someone who is a mother, I just think it's so, so, so, so important that you are careful about not speaking about other people in front of them. And I do think that more and more people of our generation and of upcoming generations are of this mind and are a lot more conscious of this, in particular, of not speaking poorly about your own body in front of a younger person, whether that's your child or your student or your niece, nephew, whoever it may be. I even think, because I have a couple of young people in my life, of not being like, “Ah! You're so pretty!” Just not commenting on their appearance. Just really trying to not be like, “What a beautiful child!” It's like, okay, there are so many other things about us as human beings than just the way we look.Maddie Mason: Yeah, absolutely.Megan Gill: And how can I show up and do better when speaking to children or about other people in front of children? Yeah. So I just really love hearing that and I think it's so vital.Maddie Mason: I have a funny thing, actually. This kind of goes along with my toxic family circle. My cousin, a while ago – I can't remember if it was my cousin or my aunt, but this was back in the nineties, and she was talking to somebody and talking about how she had gained a lot of weight and she doesn't feel great, she really wants to lose it. And the girl she was talking to goes, “Oh my gosh, no. What are you talking about? You're beautiful.” And she goes, “I said I was fat, not ugly.” I was like, oh my god. If that doesn't explain the whole just everything that is wrong with… I was like, oh my god. Right? Fat doesn't equal ugly, beautiful doesn't equal skinny. It's just, yeah, these correlations that people make, and it's just wild.Megan Gill: It is wild.Maddie Mason: I see us shifting away from it, which is amazing. But we still get it here and there. It's still there.Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely. Because it's like we're in our thirties. This is 30 plus years of conditioning and a lot of the conditioning being that skinny equals beautiful, skinny equals good, and fat equals ugly, fat equals bad. Like that is truly like growing up in the nineties and the early two thousands. That was the message that we were receiving left and right and up and down and from our peers and from parental figures or teacher figures or whoever it may be. It was all around us. So of course it’s taking so much energy to undo that. But I'm also really proud of people like us and people from our generation for doing that work (because it is heavy-lifting work) to then be able to shift the way we think about different types of bodies for the kids that are being born in 2025. I'm so curious to just how much that this shifts in the next 20 to 30 years.Maddie Mason: I know. It's exciting to think about. It's exciting to think about what these little babies are – oh, and I'm sure they'll grow up and be like, “Our parents' generation is whack! What is all this? They don't know anything! They're so uneducated!” They're gonna be saying the same thing we are about our parents, but hopefully not… Hopefully not!Megan Gill: Yep. Yep, hopefully not to certain extents, you know? For sure.Maddie Mason: I was saying the other day about reality shows. My sister was sending me clips of just some old stuff from the very beginning, like two thousands reality shows. And it's like no wonder we all kind of came out of that early two thousands in such a weird mindset going into adulthood. I mean, the cattiness and the eating disorders and just the everything. Everybody was so skinny, so skinny. And it's just wild to look back at those clips, and it was just so accepted and acceptable to say some of those things and act certain ways. It's just wild to look back on. It’s lovely to think about the future.Megan Gill: Right. I think it was also interesting thinking about my mom. Like, it was so hush hush to be like in a bigger body and proud of it, you know?Maddie Mason: Yeah, that was not a thing. You were always the joke or the character, the Fat Amy or the big, funny girl. It was always some shtick that came along with being in a bigger body.Megan Gill: Right, of course. And so, no wonder that it was stigmatized in the way that it was, but it's like how fucking liberating and freeing now to finally – I was just talking with a friend of mine about how there's an ensemble member in Cabaret on Broadway right now who is a big girlie. And she's in the same costumes! And I went and looked her up immediately after and I was, “Oh, fuck, I need to see this immediately.” And it's like, “Yes, thank you! Jesus! Why now? Why now? Yes, absolutely. Like, heller!Maddie Mason: Yeah, like why not always? Why hasn't this always been?Megan Gill: Thank you, jeeze!Maddie Mason: I remember, I think the last time feeling like that in college was just, ugh, just remembering the feeling of, “This costume is not flattering. I don't feel comfortable.” And I know that it was done without a thought as to – I do struggle between okay, what's perfect for the piece, what needs to happen, and what can we be sensitive toward? As a choreographer or a teacher, when I'm thinking about costumes or anything, I'm always thinking about what is everybody going to feel good in and feel comfortable moving in, because the worst thing is to be a performer and have rehearsed a piece or a number or a show, and then getting out on stage and feeling self-conscious about what you're wearing or how something is hugging you in a weird spot or how just mortifying it is almost, feeling like – it’s like the nightmare where you like walk out and you're naked onstage. Like that's the same feeling is, “Okay, I know they took into account the size extra-small people, but ah, I wish they would take into account how I feel and where I'm at and how this looks and just everything.”Megan Gill: I agree. It's like that level of care and consideration for everyone that should be the baseline.Maddie Mason: Or like you said in Cabaret, the ensemble member was wearing the exact same costume, and they probably created a costume for her, the exact same design as everybody else instead of – I don't know how many times – and I understand because of budgeting and certain things, but how many times it was, “Here's the box or here's the costumes. Find one that you fit in.” And there was a time in college where I was like, “I don't fit into any of these. So either I have to find a different costume, or I'm not in this piece, or I have to work to fit into a costume.” Like it's just stuff like that, that is treating people with humility. And as an artist, I don't feel like we grew up learning that or feeling like we deserved that. And now that we're grownups, we can change that and make sure we're in spaces that that is not happening, that that's not the culture.Megan Gill: Right, and being able to understand that we can, not that we should have to, per se, but that we can advocate for ourselves and hopefully empower other people to advocate for themselves because, yeah, it's like we shouldn't have to carry that. If you're that dancer who's like, “None of these fit me,” that should not be happening in the first place.Maddie Mason: Yeah.Megan Gill: But what about that space hopefully supports that dancer to pipe up and say, “Hey, can we do something so that I feel comfortable and I feel just as good as everyone else dancing?” It’s so disheartening.Maddie Mason: Yeah. Right now it's on the dancer. It really does take dancers having to advocate for themselves and going, “Hey…” and that can be so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable because, I mean, there have been situations where it's like, “Okay, next!” You grow up learning your everybody's replaceable. You get injured, they'll have somebody in the door doing your part in, like, five minutes. So I think it asks a lot of dancers to have to advocate for themselves. I wish they wouldn't because their job is to dance, is to know the choreography, perform it, execute it. That's a dancer's job. It's the leaders, the directors, the costumers, it's their job to figure out how do we make this dancer look good onstage doing what they're doing. It's not the dancer's job to go, “How do I make myself look good in this,” or “What can I do?” on top of the dancing. The dancing should just be the dancing. That's your job. Not, “How am I going to fit into this costume?” along with, “I'm tired, I've been working and dancing. My body hurts, and now I have to lose more weight? How do I even do that? I can't workout more. There's no more time in the day.” It's just a lot that goes into it mentally for a dancer.Megan Gill: Oh, I absolutely agree.Maddie Mason: And hopefully the leaders in the future will take that into consideration and make it their job to highlight the people that are hired, highlight these dancers and work with what they have, not with what they could be.Megan Gill: Right, 100%. I fully agree. Okay, before we wrap up, I have a question for you. I am wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are. And it can be physical, it can be non-physical. Totally up to you. But I'm excited to hear!Maddie Mason: My favorite things about my body? Oh, gosh, it changes. It changes! As much as my body changes, it always changes. Right now in this moment, I'm grateful that my body gave me children, and I'm grateful that they're active and healthy and that it can do everything it needs to do to provide for them. So that's what I'm grateful for right now. I mean, it's been up and down, but right now I feel probably the most comfortable I have been in my body, and it’s just knowing that these kids don't care. My kids don't care if I'm big, small. I'm just mom to them. So knowing that really is my favorite thing right now.Megan Gill: Ugh, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's really special and really important. Thank you for coming to talk with me, Maddie!Maddie Mason: Thank you! This has been awesome. I feel like, gosh, I need – yeah, I love these conversations. The world needs more of it. I love what you're doing. I love just all of it. I'm so proud of you.Megan Gill: Thank you.“ I'm also hyper aware of it now that I have kids because it's not even saying it to them. If they hear me say anything about anybody ever, that's what they hear and that's what they think people's worth is. If they hear me go, “Oh, my gosh,” or talking behind people's backs or just making little comments about people's appearances, that's the stuff I grew up with. And so, you get conditioned after a certain point to think, “Okay, well that's what everybody's thinking. So I know I've gained weight, and if I heard a comment from one person, ugh, obviously it's not just one person. Everybody's got to be thinking it.” And then it can spiral from there. But just making sure that I don't pass that onto my children and/or my students or anybody. I’m just hoping that I never make anybody feel like that ever. That's my goal. It's just dance for joy and dance because it feels good and not because you feel like you have to be something.”- Maddie MasonMaddie Mason is a distinguished dance educator and choreographer with a lifelong dedication to the performing arts. Born and raised in Wichita, KS, she began her dance training at the age of two under the guidance of her mother. She earned an Associate’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Butler Community College, where she was awarded a full scholarship for sound design within the Vocal Music Department. She then furthered her dance education at Wichita State University where she had the opportunity to tour internationally, performing in Mexico in 2016. With a passion for mentorship and arts education, she served as an Adjunct Professor of Dance at Butler Community College, where she taught Ballet, Modern, Jazz, and Hip Hop Dance. Additionally, she collaborated with Vocal Music Director Valerie Mack to choreograph for the nationally recognized Headliners Show Choir. In 2019, she relocated to Las Vegas, NV, where she was appointed Director of the Arbor View High School Dance Program. Overseeing a program of more than 150 students, she expanded the curriculum by introducing Tap Dance and successfully secured funding for new tap shoes through a DonorsChoose campaign, enhancing access to quality dance education. In August 2024, she and her family relocated to Oklahoma City to be closer to loved ones and to pursue new professional opportunities within a vibrant and inspiring arts community. She remains dedicated to fostering the next generation of dancers, advocating for inclusivity in dance education, and enriching the artistic landscape through performance and pedagogy. Learn more about Maddie and her work at www.maddiemasondance.com or @maddiemasondance.If you’re in the OKC area, take class with Maddie!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my Jennie Hughes, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Jennie is a multi-hyphenate theatre-maker based in New York City. She’s also the co-founder of Forager Theater Company, making art with those in her orbit to tell the stories she believes in. Jennie and I met in our college program, and her personal adversities as a stage actor helped shaped the story for my short film, A Broadway Body. Jennie’s body image resilience is admirable, and I’m obsessed with how Jennie’s experiences, as both an actor and a director/choreographer, lead her to cast a variety of different human beings in her productions.In our conversation, we debunk “clean girl aesthetic,” how it feels to come out of a college musical theatre program and reorient to our health, “The Chicago Effect,” and finding the balance when it comes to food, movement, and overall health. I cannot wait for you to listen into Jennie’s thoughts around bodies onstage and her own body image journey too!“I'm now trying to find the middle between working out and obsessing, and never working out and not thinking twice about any portion of my health.  Like you said, it's all balance. And doing something for me instead of for other people is kind of where I'm at in my body journey.“- Jennie Hughes​​Megan Gill: Jennie, do you want to introduce yourself and a little bit about your work and the work you're doing in the world now?Jennie Hughes: Absolutely. So I'm Jennie. I am a New York City-based theater maker. I am multi-hyphenate to the extreme. I am the co-founder and artistic director of Forager Theater Company, which I'm really happy that we just got our 501-C3 Nonprofit status, so I'm really excited to be in that world. It's gonna be a challenge but a new challenge and one where hopefully people can give us tax-free donations and their lives a little bit easier.Yeah, so our mission as a company is actually my mission as a person, which is to make theater and art with what is around you and who you have in your orbit, the pieces that physically come to you. I'm a huge street picker. I love to take furniture and stuff from the street, and I kind of take that mindset with me in every aspect of the theater world. If I meet someone with an interesting idea, I'm like, “Oh, how can I make that a play or a concert, or things that.” And I also am really interested in the idea of sustainability, both environmentally but also humans, you know? I feel a lot of times in our industry, actors and directors and designers are kind of seen as commodities or things – obviously we're all humans, we're all people, but oftentimes we're expected to sort of be a machine and power through. And I'm really interested in creating space where you're a human first and an artist second. So that's a kind of my zhuzh as a person.I moved to New York City almost nine years ago, and we'll get into it more, but I started as an actor you know, got my little BFA and then moved to New York City straight out the gate from graduating. I always directed in school and assisted everybody, and we can get into that a little bit more later, but I grew really sort of excited by the potential of making something from the ground up. So I do a lot of original work and a lot of plays and musicals and things like that. So that's me!I of course have a side gigs barista teaching nannying, and I try to find work that excites me and I can still feel creative while doing so. So that's my biz!Megan Gill: That's lovely. That's so important. And I also really appreciate how you have followed your heart, moving from being an actor to becoming a director and now having a theater company where you get to tell the stories you want to tell and you get to cast the bodies you want to see on stage. And I think it's so, so vital that more of us are doing that and making space for those types of productions.Would you want to share a little bit about the ways in which you make sure that you're prioritizing centering different humans and different humans’ stories?Jennie Hughes: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up obviously in the theater scene, and we went to the same college which I don't think our school is unique in its sort of fatphobia. I think that that is just a very common thread when it comes to many schools and BFA programs. But I was lucky enough during that time to be parallel learning with my mentor at the time. She ran a theater company, and she was really always pushing me to choreograph and assistant direct and help in any way I could. And she gave me the advice, you know, when I wasn't getting cast in school like, “Oh, well why don't you be the assistant director? Why don't you be the assistant choreographer and try to be the voice that you wish you had in the space, in the rooms?”So I learned a lot by observing these directors and people, but again, the parallel person in my life, that's the reason I stuck with it. I think if I had just had the BFA program, I probably would've been so disheartened, you know? But I had this woman who was casting tall girls as ingenues. She was casting fat girls. She was casting any type of body in an unconventional casting way. I've always just known that that was the way to go, but I didn't have that example in school. I had it with my mentor.And I think that I kind of went off on a tangent, but with my work, one of the big reasons I wanted to direct and produce was, yes, to tell my own stories and to tell the stories that I feel passionately about. And you learn very quickly when you move to a new city, or at least New York City, that if you want something done you can't just wait for it to happen. You do have to just make it. And not all of us have that privilege. Not everybody has the privilege to work a full-time job and then have the energy and the stamina to do your other work outside of that. I do think that's a very privileged thing that I get to do. Some people, you know, have to wait and things that. So I want to recognize that too.But my purpose is I look at Broadway and I look at commercial theater and they're – not to shit on Broadway. They’re trying, but it’s still with the goal of just ticking a box and selling tickets. And I'm more interested in, well, why can't a fat person play a romantic lead? And same with queerness and transness too. I'm developing a show right now where we want it to be a collective of people, and we're pushing really hard to make the trans actors not only play trans characters, you know? Why do we put people in these tight boxes? I was always put in like, “Oh, well you're curvy, so how about you be the mom? How about you be the best friend?” Which, sure, I love playing those characters, but I was lucky to go to a program after college where I was putting myself in these boxes. We're getting a little bit into my actor side now, but I was putting myself in these boxes.I went to the Open Jar Institute by the way. It was super eye-opening and really cool. And any young folks out there should try to go and check it out because the guy who runs it, his whole concept is that if you teach yourself that you can only jump so high, you'll never jump higher, you know? And I was sort of putting myself in this box. I was like, “Oh, well, you know, I know I'm kind of bigger, so I'm feeling really pressured to lose weight, but I just hate working out. No matter what I do, I can never be thin enough.” And in school they were like, “Well, so just try harder.” They're like, “Here's this diet book. Here's this exercise plan,” right? And when I got to New York City, my mentor goes, “Well, do you want to work out? Do you want to be thin?” And I was like, “Well, no, but I feel I have to.” And he goes, “You can dance circles around all these other girls. That makes you surprising. That makes you interesting. If you don't want to be thin, you don't need to be. Just do what you want to do and trust that whoever sees that is going to know what to do with it,” basically.And that was great. And once I clocked that and once I understood, “Oh wait, it's actually a waste of my time and energy to force myself into this box, I started getting more and more callbacks.” Almost every dance call I went to, I got kept because I just went in with the knowledge that I know what I'm doing, you know? And sometimes it will be rewarded, you know, or not even rewarded, but that it's worth trying and it's not worth waiting until you're the right body to do something.Megan Gill: Right. Do you feel that completely shifted your confidence and your alignment with showing up authentically as a human and a performer?Jennie Hughes: Absolutely. It totally did. And I think it's still so ingrained. The fatphobia and the body checking is really, really ingrained in us depending on, you know, your upbringing and whatever. But at least if you went to a BFA program, you're aware of what your body looks like. But I honestly – and again, this might just be because this is my path in life – but I started to sort of collect other people like me in my circles. I started to find the people who were not aligning with five-foot-eight, a hundred and, you know, whatever pounds. And I started making stuff with them. I would start doing cabarets and play readings in my living room and things like that. I'm trying to find the right words. I feel everybody knows that what they're seeing on commercial Broadway is everyone's perception of the ideal. But if you look around you, everybody does not look like that. So I'm kind of like I want to create theater with people who agree that that's not reality. And I also want to make theater for people who want to see themselves represented in media.And when I saw Head Over Heels with Bonnie Milligan, I saw it with my sister who could be Bonnie Milligan's daughter, you know not daughter literally, but they look very similar. They had a similar voice. I saw it with her, and if I had had that musical – because I was already living in the city at that point. But the whole concept is that Bonnie Milligan's character is this gorgeous princess and everyone wants to marry her because she's beautiful, and it's never a joke, it's never, “Oh ha-ha,” because oftentimes in musicals where there's a plus-size character, they have comments about her. That was never the case. The only comment that was ever made about Princess Pamela was that she was gorgeous and beautiful and everyone wanted to marry her. Crazy! And she was gay! And she was gay too, you know what I mean? She fell in love with the maid.Megan Gill: This shouldn't even be crazy but it is.Jennie Hughes: Angie, my sister, and I saw it and we were like, “What? A leading woman who is plus size and also a lesbian? That’s unheard of.”Megan Gill: Yeah.Jennie Hughes: Absolutely unheard of. But that's real life, you know? Anyway, that show really rocked my perception of reality. I'm so happy I got to see it.There was also in that show Peppermint played a non-binary character. There was a character who was sort of this goddess who was neither man nor a woman, you know? And I was just like that's the Broadway I want to see in the world.Megan Gill: I don't know if you've seen Too Much on Netflix with Megan Salter, but it's kind of a similar concept. She is not gay. She’s straight, but the fact that she's the leading woman in this Netflix TV show and not once is her weight mentioned and not once is it about what she looks or how much she weighs or her body. And it's like why is this, A, a recent development and why do we feel shocked to finally see this type of media? And yeah, it's few and far between, which hopefully we are continuing to just make more and more and more of it. But that's why it's so important that someone you is out there with your own company, mind you, actively making theater that represents real life.Jennie Hughes: Yeah. Yeah.Megan Gill: Because you’re right. We go to Netflix, we go to Broadway, and we do not see real life a lot of times. And it fucks with our heads.Jennie Hughes: Also just commenting on Megan Stelter, by the way, genius. A genius. She's so funny. She’s a very normal-looking person, you know what I mean? She's not stick thin, but she's just a person, a human person having an experience, so I love that. I need to watch that show. Haven't started it, but I love that it's out there.But yeah, I was going to say, when it comes to casting or creating work for the historically underrepresented groups, I know specifically we're talking about body shape, body size, body ability too, that's something that I can always do better at, is pushing for the casting of people who aren't, you know, able-bodied, have certain mobility devices and things like that. That's something that I have not done yet that I think it's just a part of opening up your network and opening your community and figuring out the best way to make theater like that. But I have a lot of friends who specialize in that and have communities that they support through that type of work.But something that I think about a lot when I'm casting, and I don't know if it's a supply problem or a demand problem, do you know what I mean? When I'm casting – I just cast – I did a big open-call type thing on Actors Access and Playbill for a show. And when I post specifically leading roles, I try to specify, “Any body type, all bodies should apply for this,” because it's always my dream to get a plus-size or fat person on stage as a romantic lead. That's always my dream. I'm sure you won't be shocked to know that most of the people who submit are thin, able-bodied people, you know? And so, again, I don't know if it's just that people see – we have to retrain our own perceptions as well, the people creating the shows. I think that there are more and more people casting and directing that want other bodies on stage. I do think that that's true, but I think the other issue comes with the actors and the creatives not – they're putting themselves in their own boxes because they're like, “Oh I could never –,” you know, “That's not my type. I'm not pretty, and I'm not, you know, the leading lady type. I'm the best friend.”Megan Gill: It reminds me of what you were speaking to with yourself as well, which also just I want to point out and note that a lot of that does stem from the educational spaces that we spend a lot of time in –Jennie Hughes: One hundred percent.Megan Gill: – and how important it is that we as the educators in these creative, educational spaces are moving further and further away from those outdated narratives and conditioning young people to believe these things about themselves. I just want to slide that in there because I feel like that’s a part of the conversation.Jennie Hughes: Absolutely, absolutely. It's one hundred percent trained. You don't know you're fat until someone says, “Oh, well I can't really see you in that costume. I don't think I could cast you as that role,” do you know what I mean? And I'm like, “But I would eat down. What are you talking about?” I try really hard to push for that. and I think you're right. By making our own stuff, we are training – that's, that's sort of my purpose with my theater company. I don't want anybody to tell themselves that they're not, you know, good enough or thin enough or pretty enough or whatever. Obviously, there are certain things. If your nature is shy and timid, it's gonna be hard for you to play a leading role or to play a bold and brash villain. That's different than saying, “Oh, but like, you know, I'm a size 14. I don't think I could play the leading role in this certain play,” or whatever.Megan Gill: Right, right, right.Jennie Hughes: And it's so fascinating because I did a production of Tick, Tick… Boom! and my John was under 5’5”. He’s a very small, little guy. My entire cast actually was all under 5’5”. They were all very short people, so it kind of worked out. And it wasn't intentional. I didn't do that on purpose. But so my John was this very thin person. And normally Susan is typically cast as sort of the nineties aesthetic, thin girl. And I cast this, first of all, stunning actress, beautiful voice. No one can do it better than her. I cast her as Susan, and she is a curvy, gorgeous person. We did it in the city, and then it got picked up and we took it to another theater. And the artistic director of the theater was like, “I'm just so impressed. I would never have thought to cast the show this,” do you know what I mean? She was like, “That actress can really dance. She can really move. I believe she's a dancer.” And I'm like, “Yeah, right?”Megan Gill: Why are we tying people's talent and skill and ability to execute said talent and skill to the way their body looks?Jennie Hughes: It's based on these assumptions. It's based on these really, really outdated fatphobic assumptions.Megan Gill: And the conditioning from Broadway, from the educational spaces, and from our social experiences growing up.Jennie Hughes: I hope that by, you know that by – not to be to my own horn, but by casting alternative bodies in roles that are traditionally made for dancers or leading men, the people in this town and this company that saw this musical, I hope that I had altered their perception of what's possible. That's all we can do as these indie – I'm not on Broadway. I'm not casting shows on Broadway, but I'm hoping that by doing my small part in changing the way that we do things as a theater industry, not just around body type, around care of our people, around casting Black and Indigenous people of color, casting Latino actors and Asian actors in roles that you don't particularly think they would be cast in, someone has to show everyone how to do it. And I think it's up to indie theater and it's up to indie film as well because I know that's what you're in. We are where the movement starts usually, I think. So I'm hoping to make my small impact in that way.That's how it starts, you know? If you align with the tradition and you align with the norms, it won't change. It takes people being like, “No, fuck that. I'm not doing that. I'm doing this and it's better.”Megan Gill: Yeah.Jennie Hughes: And believing in that too. And sometimes you're wrong. It's not always gonna be the best, most beautiful art that you've ever made. But it's the act of trying, I think is a form of resistance to that.I was gonna say on Broadway right now, it's about to close, but Cabaret, I don't know if you've seen Cabaret on Broadway. Another show that blew my mind a little bit, healed little Jennie. One of the ensemble members, MiMii Scardulla, is this fierce dancer. I couldn't take my eyes off her the whole show. She was incredible just in the ensemble. But she is a plus-sized girlie. She's a big girl up there, and she's wearing the same costumes as everyone else. She's showing the same amount of skin. They don't have her strapped into a corset. She is doing the show like every other ensemble member and telling the story in a really fabulous, beautiful way. And again, she wasn't – I've heard this time and time again from casting directors. “Well, it'll be distracting if you're, you know, in the costumes. People will be a little bit confused.”Megan Gill: What the hell.Jennie Hughes: I've heard that. You know the story from school, from our school. You know, I was told I couldn't be cast as the ensemble of Chicago because I was too big. They couldn't envision me in the costumes. I'm just so happy that they're doing that on Broadway, at least in a small part, you know?Megan Gill: Yes. Right. Because you're right, it is baby steps, and it is these little things that influence and that shift perspective and allow people to see differently and help decondition some of that bullshit.Jennie Hughes: I'm obsessed with her right now. She also just did a huge Broadway Bares thing, MiMi Scardulla. She was the leading part of this Broadway Bares number as a fat actress. Broadway Bares, if you don't know, is kind of a strip show to raise money for the Actors’ Equity Fights Aids coalition thing. And yeah, it's just great to see at least the community under the top tier of Broadway supporting that and then, you know encouraging it and hopefully, like you said, baby steps, chipping away at the wall of the traditional way of doing things. So, I'm really excited that that's on Broadway.21:09They always tell you to go see shows and then pick the person in the show that you could follow, career-wise. That's a big advice thing for people to do. And for so long I was like, “Well, I can't really be anybody on Broadway because no one looks me.” But now there are more and more people. And again, it's not like it's not changing at all. You know, I do have to remind myself like, okay, it is changing. You know, even in the culprit of the Broadway thinness of it all, Chicago, on Broadway. Do you know about “The Chicago Effect”? Have I told you about this?Megan Gill: You have notJennie Hughes: Okay. So it's kind of sad, but I'll give some context about the Chicago Revival on Broadway, just in case people don't know. It was in the nineties. It was written in the sixties, and it was done, and it was really great and so fun. It was Fosse, hands down, which a lot of people assume Fosse dancers have to be thin, which is another thing. But that assumption came mostly from the nineties revival (which is still on Broadway right now) where everybody that was cast in that show was incredibly thin, like stick thin because they were in these skin-tight, scantily-clad black outfits.And after that show – typing out is something that people do in open calls where they just look at a bunch of headshots and they say, “Okay, yes, I want to see them.” “No, I don't want to see them.” They would start typing actors by whether or not they were showing their collarbone in their headshots. So if you could see someone's collarbone, they would get typed in. Well, so it's like, okay, so me, I serve good collarbone, but, you know,, I don't think about that when I'm doing headshots. But people started to do headshots in, you know, shirts that you could see their collarbone, because if you can see someone's collarbone, that means they're probably thin or fit.Megan Gill: What? Oh, my god. Wild. This is wild.Jennie Hughes: So that's called “The Chicago Effect.” Isn't that crazy? So that's what happened in the early nineties, but also heroin chic was a huge thing in the nineties and two thousands and we're starting to – well, we were starting and now we're kind of dipping back down. We gotta stop that. But yeah, it's the collarbone effect. And so, they would type out people – not just girls, I'm sure guys too. They would type out people who didn't have a collarbone when they were casting ensemble and dance shows. So it's very deep seated. It's a very deeply-held problem and belief in a lot of casting directors, but yeah, the collarbone effect, “The Chicago Effect” is a real thing.Of course, Chicago was the, the show, the famous show for me in college that I was told I could not be in, even though I danced circles around everybody who auditioned. And so, I started looking up – I was like, why the fuck? Because when I, when something happens to me that I don't like, I get researchy about it. I'm like, “Let me get my computer out, and I'm gonna solve this problem.” Yes, “What's going on here? What's going on? I need to solve this problem.”So I did a bunch of research on when did it become the norm to be thin onstage and why? And it's, yeah, mostly Chicago, 1990 on Broadway. But I mean, it's always been a thing and it's also like – I don't want to speak too much on it because I'm not an expert, but it's also white supremacy too, the idea that in order for a body to be good, it must look a certain way. And fatphobia is wrapped into that as well. So it's very deep, but I think we are chipping away at it slowly but surely, slowly but surely.Megan Gill: I agree with you. Indeed, and it's people like you telling the stories that you're telling and leading the spaces that you're leading that are a part of that movement.Jennie Hughes: I hope to be.Megan Gill: And hopefully these conversations that help educate people and open people's eyes. I think that's also a running theme of just our conversations so far, with Tick, Tick… Boom! and was it the…Jennie Hughes: The artistic director.Megan Gill: Oh, the artistic director, yeah. You opened her eyes. And it's unfortunate that we have to carry that weight and that that's now on our shoulders, in a sense. But also I it's a weight that, at least for me, I'm willing to carry.Jennie Hughes: Oh, yeah. What a gift that I get to lead the charge.Megan Gill: Yeah. Yes.Jennie Hughes: Absolutely.Megan Gill: For sure.Jennie Hughes: Absolutely.Megan Gill: So just for context, for anyone listening , we both went to school at the same time in college, in the same theater program. When I was writing A Broadway Body, which is the short film I created in 2021, I had reached out to you and a couple other of our friends and peers just asking if you were open to sharing your stories of your time in school and how body image played a role in your educational experience. And you were so kind to share so openly and vulnerably with me. But how has your relationship to your body shifted since graduating, since being removed from a place where you were not cast because of the size of your body and where people were feeding you these just, “It's fine. No one likes to do it. No one wants to work out, but work out anyways. You have to, otherwise there's no other way forward.” Now being nine years out of that, almost a whole decade out of that, where is your relationship with your body at now?Jennie Hughes: That's a huge question. Well, I will say it was not an immediate like, “Oh, I left college and suddenly I'm free,” you know? I feel like even still I have a lot of habits, just even mentally, around perception of my own body. What I will say is I've never – probably in college, I knew it was fucked up, so I was trying to fight the demon of like, “Oh, well if you were just thinner, it would be better. If you looked this way, it would be better.”So I would say I have a good relationship with my physical body and what it looks like now. I've gained curves in places I never knew I could, you know, and that just is part of aging, it's part of growing up. And something I am sort of on the upswing of right now is trying to re-align myself with fitness and physical health with a different lens because I think that in school, working out and eating healthy was only to be thin. That was the entire purpose. I talk about my life like a pendulum, right? When I was in school and when I freshly graduated, I swung really far into the pendulum of like, “I have to work out five times a week. I have to plan every calorie. I have to only think about what I'm doing to look a certain way.” And then, the pandemic hit, as it rocked all of our perception of everything, and I sort of swung in this other direction where I was like, “I'm gonna shave my head. I'm going to eat whatever I want. I'm never gonna work out again.” And you know, sort of, which again, shaving your head, do it. Everyone should do it. But, you know, I sort of really swung in this other direction, and now I'm sort of like, “Okay, I do still need to take care of my body, but I have to do it for the reason of my literal health and being strong enough to do the life I want to do.” And I think that that's something that we just never were taught in school. It was never like, “Hey, you should lift weights and run on the treadmill so that you can climb a ladder and belt a high B or, you know, what I mean. That should have been the reason.Megan Gill: Yeah. I absolutely agree.Jennie Hughes: Not, “You need to lift weights and run so that you can fit the costumes.”Megan Gill: Right. It should have been, “You need to lift weights and run so that you are able to execute a full two-hour dance show and have the strength to do so,” or in a lift or if you're doing cartwheels, you have the mobility and the strength to execute the movement. Right.Jennie Hughes: Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely, and that's something that – again the pendulum swings, right? So I hadn't worked out in years. I was dancing still. I think dancing is exercise, but I was not – something that never clicked for me that my partner actually told me was that dancing is great, but that's not training. “You love to dance and you should dance, but you need to train so that you can sustain the classes.” Because it's like I would take a class and then for three days after, be like, “Ugh, my back, my knees,” you know? Danny was like, “Well, if you work out, you'll be strong enough to do the things you want to do without pain,” you know?To go back to answering your question, I'm now trying to find the middle between working out and obsessing and never working out and not thinking twice about any portion of my health. So I'm trying to find the middle ground, but I think that it's important to indulge. I think that mental health-wise, food is life.Megan Gill: Food is life!Jennie Hughes: I will never eat another iceberg lettuce with one cherry tomato for dinner again, you know what I mean? That's crazy.Megan Gill: Yes, I know exactly what you mean.Jennie Hughes: Like you said, it's all balance. And doing something for me instead of for other people is kind of where I'm at in my body journey.Megan Gill: Ooh. Yeah. That's a really, really, really lovely recognition and a place that I think it does take us a while to get to.Jennie Hughes: Oh, yeah.Megan Gill: I'm right there with you. I’m in a very, very similar place in my relationship to my body and my health and movement and food, and it's there is a happy medium. It’s like there is this place where we are not obsessing about it and we do feel strong.Jennie Hughes: It's not easy, and it's hard because I have, you know – as every person that grew up in the early two thousands, we have this obsession, whether we want it or not, with being thin, with eating healthy. And it's really, really hard. It's a constant reminder. And for me, rejection is my sort of obsession. I'm like, “Well, fuck that. I'm never gonna work out. I'm never gonna eat healthy.” And that's also not great, you know? So it's like you're either dealing with one or the other. But for me, it's sort of like I'll tell a little short story.Early 2024, so early last year, I got my first big injury as an adult. I was teaching full-time. I was teaching music and dance for kiddos, and then I was also doing my theater company in my spare time, the evenings and weekends. And I was teaching a class for my theater company. We do donation-based classes, and my calf muscle absolutely strained, basically, in this class. And I was like, “Oh my god.” I couldn't work for three weeks. I was basically in bed, and it was huge. And I luckily started going to this physical therapist who has saved my life. I go to him every week now, almost Symbio Physio. Shout out! If you're in NYC, definitely check them out. They were lifesavers.But something that he explained to me, because of course my first thought was, “Oh my god, I am so out of shape. My body just couldn't sustain the work I was doing.” And he was like, “That's actually not the case. You're not taking care – you're not hydrating enough. You're not stretching. You're not getting –,” you know? It was even just changing that – of course, if I was a little bit stronger and agile, I maybe wouldn't have had such a bad injury. But it's also about the repair of your body and the upkeep within it. You don't have to be running ten miles a day, but you have to do something for yourself in order to sustain life. You just have to, you know? Especially the life I want to live, you know?Megan Gill: Right. Yeah, and I feel this is going back to the piece that we were not taught in school or that we're not taught by our society and by our culture, that it's about so many other things than just being thin.Jennie Hughes: Yes.Megan Gill: And that dials it down to one of the major core issues with the messaging that we receive about our bodies.Jennie Hughes: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And you know, I've never wanted to be thin so bad that I would get lipo or, you know, do anything like that. But the folks who do that, they're still not actually healthy. They're still not actually well. And we have this whole industry that's built on wellness and “clean-girl aesthetic” and eating clean and healthy, and it's actually not with the best interest of the people in mind, you know?So it's a big learning process, and I'm still not – I'm proud of myself. I got my membership to a gym back. I did used to go to the gym five days a week, and I would portion out every meal. I was really into it. But then, you know, I had my whole feminist awakening of like, “I’ve gotta swing the other way.” But I've got a gym membership. I'm trying again. You know, that's all we can do.Megan Gill: Yay for strength!Jennie Hughes: Yeah, I'm just trying to make choices now that I will be grateful for in the future. That is what I'm trying to do. Yeah.Megan Gill: That is a word. Truly, that's so important, and I appreciate you talking about that and sharing that.Jennie Hughes: Of course.Megan Gill: I am wondering, before we wrap up, what your favorite thing or things about your body are. It can be physical, non-physical, both. Totally up to you!Jennie Hughes: Okay, I'm gonna say two.Megan Gill: Okay, great.Jennie Hughes: First, I'll say a non-physical thing. I'm grateful I am very strong. I'm not benching or anything like that. But living in New York and doing the work I do with my theater company, I'm often carrying doorframes down the street or couches or three bags full of props and costumes, and I feel very, very grateful and very, very happy that my body is able to sustain that and do that. Again, I can have the life I want because I have this body. If I was, you know, different, I wouldn't be able to carry and do the things that I do. And it's also a way for me to help my community. I have a lot of people in my network who can't carry their backpack up the stairs, so I can help and do that. I'm a body. I can carry things. So I love that.And then I will say I'm kind of obsessed with my curves. I love that about my body. I've always low key – I will sometimes just like – and I love the jiggle. I jiggle all the time. That's who I am. I've always been jiggly. And yeah, so I love that I jiggle, and I love the curves that I have. I'm really obsessed with that.Megan Gill: I love that answer, those answers, both answers! They’re just so wonderful, and thank you for sharing!Jennie Hughes: Thanks, Megan.Megan Gill: Of course. Thank you for coming today to chat with me about this stuff.Jennie Hughes: Yeah, of course. This was amazing!Megan Gill: It really was.Jennie Hughes: Yeah, I’d forgotten about all those stories. I was like, “Oh, damn!”Megan Gill: I know. Wow!Jennie Hughes: I want to say though, also thank you, Megan, for doing this. You're doing something that I would've never have considered to do, and it's really brave, and it's really important. So I'm happy that you're doing this.“ They always tell you to go see shows and then pick the person in the show that you could follow, career-wise. That's a big advice thing for people to do. And for so long I was like, ‘Well, I can't really be anybody on Broadway because I don't know one who looks like me.’ But now there are more and more people.“- Jennie HughesJennie Hughes (she/her) is an NYC based award winning director, choreographer, educator and the founding director of Forager Theatre Company. She prioritizes work that is women-led and tells stories that are often overlooked in commercial theatre. Jennie believes in creating spaces where everybody feels seen, heard, and safe enough to truly challenge themselves through collaboration. Her most recent credits with Forager include: The Hand That Feeds You (Players Theatre), Flora the Red Menace (Court Square Theatre) and Tick, Tick...BOOM! (New Ohio and Kitchen Theatre). Jennie also works regionally and within NYC as a freelance director/choreographer. Notable credits include: Frizzled (director) at The PIT andThe Tank, Leading Lady Club and The Things I Did While Waiting For You To Fall Back In Love With Me (director) at 59E59 and Edinburgh Fringe Festival.🔗 Check out Forager Theatre Company!🔗 Follow Jennie on Instagram🔗 Follow Forager Theatre Company on InstagramSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my long-time friend and fellow musical theatre actor and entrepreneur, Stacy Keele, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Stacy is not only an actor, she’s also a certified Human Design reader + Neuro-linguistic Programming coach helping chronically-ill entrepreneurs build body-led businesses their way, so they can show up in business authentically and avoid burnout.In our conversation, we discuss how the hustle and grind of pursuing a professional musical theatre career in NYC left Stacy sick and struggling, but also ultimately brought her to her work today. Stacy dives into how Human Design can bring us back into our bodies and help us better relate to the ways we are meant to move in the world. She also ties all of this into how she functions herself (and helps spoonie-preneurs function) best as women in business in chronically-ill bodies. Stacy is a true light, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!“If you're a chronically-ill actor, or you're on the verge, or you feel like you're going that way, please, please, please take a step back and say, “How am I navigating life? Because theater's hard. It's hard emotionally. It's hard mentally. It's hard physically. Eight shows a week if you're on Broadway is hard fricking work. So we have to take care of ourselves in every capacity to be well enough to perform, which is a luxury and a privilege in itself. And so, when we can align with our design, it just helps make all of that so much easier to do.”- Stacy KeeleStacy Keele: So, hello, my name is Stacy Keele, also known as the Spoonie CEO Advisor. So I am currently helping spoonie-preneurs with chronic conditions, so chronically-ill entrepreneurs. I help guide them to reclaim their rest, rhythm, and revenue using Human Design. And Human Design is a map of your energetic DNA rooted in ancient wisdom and science. So it's this cool crossroads of science and woo. It is a tool. It's not a belief system, so you don't have to subscribe to any school of thought or religion to learn and experiment with your design. But it's a tool to really help us tap into who we were designed to be energetically in this world, which I think fits in a lot with our stories and A Broadway Body.Megan Gill: Absolutely and just honoring your body and all of that good stuff.Stacy Keele: Yeah, and it's been a wild, wild journey for me in these last 15 years from when we graduated from college, from the musical theater program, and after that I moved to New York City, and I lived there for a decade. And I worked my little butt off hustling, hustling, hustling, working eight jobs at a time. I found myself working at Ellen’s Stardust Diner for about seven years, which was wonderful and beautiful, and also brutal as hell. Trying to balance all of these parts of being an actor and running your own business, which is really what being an actor is, I think if I could go back and do it over, I would definitely have that mindset a little bit more instead of just trying to fit into all of these boxes that we think we have to fit into and that we have to shrink ourselves into. I worked myself into the ground trying to make all of this work, and I had success in New York. You know, I did. I got my equity card. I did a children's tour. And then COVID hit, and we located back down to Austin, Texas, which is where I am now.But throughout all of that, trying to fit into boxes, trying to make the New York Life work, trying to make me fit into the New York life (is how I will say it) really led me to some chronic illness issues, and I got diagnosed with my first chronic illness – because we start to collect them like little puzzle pieces – was Hashimoto's, so a thyroid autoimmune. And I really came to that discovery when I was nannying (one of my million jobs in New York), and I found that I couldn't walk like five blocks without having to sit down. And I was like, “This is wild. What is going on here?” And so, I tried to find the answers, all the doctors. I finally ended up getting diagnosed with an autoimmune. And then quickly after that, I was diagnosed with Endometriosis and then Adenomyosis and then Psoriasis, and they just started happening to me.And looking back, now knowing my Human Design, my energetic DNA, I realized that I was operating completely in opposition to how I'm designed. And I found that that was the biggest missing piece to what was going on. And now that I know in Human Design, I am an energy type that is a non-sacral, which means we don't have as much doer energy as the rest of the energy types. And how going back to college, going back to early New York days, I would do it a hundred percent differently. I would honor my energetic DNA. I would show up authentically. Looking back, I think of all the ways that I tried to change myself in order to be what casting wanted, what our school wanted, what we were told would book. And now I'm like, what a whole other life ago, you know? Instead of just showing up in the room and saying, “This is me.” I would wake up every day and I would straighten my hair and then I would wave it, and I have naturally curly hair. Like what?Megan Gill: Oh, yep.Stacy Keele: Like, what? What was I doing? You know, I was spending so much energy and brain capacity focusing on the foods I was eating and how to lose weight and how to, you know, ultimately ended up in all of those, you know, eating-disorder cycles because I just believed that I had to “fix myself” to book work, to be a successful actor, to succeed in any sort of way, shape, or form in this lifetime. And now I know that that is absolutely untrue and that could I have gone back and shown up authentically, I probably would've been more successful.Megan Gill: And my story is similar, unfortunately, and I think for a lot of us, we try to shrink ourselves to fit into these boxes, specifically as actors looking to book work. Hearing you speak on all of that, I can't help but think, wow, if you and I were able to go back to our time in college now, knowing what we know now, obviously learning we've learned and experiencing what we've experienced and coming into ourselves and our bodies now, I think that, at least speaking for myself, I would've been so much more confident onstage, so much more confident in class, so much more confident in my art. I would've been able to perform more authentically. And I think it would've made me a stronger actor –Stacy Keele: And person.Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yes, absolutely. And then not to mention the fact that we were wasting so much brain power and time and energy on trying to “fix ourselves” to be this thing that our professors, the casting directors, the industry, the agents wanted us to “br,” at least what we thought in our heads. I'm like, wow, I could have taken all of that and energy and put it into becoming a better actor.Now, I'm obsessed with television. In college and thereafter, up until the pandemic, I didn't watch tv. And now it's interesting because I'm making movies now, so it makes a little bit more sense that I'm really obsessed with TV. But wow, I just spend time watching the art and I’m just so grateful to have been, as one of my recent guests and friends Amy said, removed from the matrix. I removed myself from that way of life and that way of thinking. And now I'm able to actually do the things that I wanna do and that I love and put time and energy into watching art and making art instead of thinking, “What am I going to eat tonight? Oh no, I need to go work out X amount today because of XYZ,” and all of the bullshit that weunfortunately were succumbed to.”Stacy Keele: Yeah, I think what it really comes down to is we were so focused on the how, “How are we going to make this work? How are we going to be cast? How are we going to, you know, be successful and be what everyone wants,” that we lost track of the why. Why are we doing this, you know? It's like for you now, you're creating such beautiful, creative, important mission-based work that back then was not even on the radar because we were spending so much time worrying about, you know, how we looked and how we were perceived and if we could be the right type. And now it's just focused on the art in the mission, which is really the why. Why is so importantMegan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And it's also interesting that we've both kind of diverted from the traditional musical theater actor trajectory. And I think that says a lot about where we've come as people as well as far as relating to ourselves and our bodies and honoring our energies. And it is a hustle,nand it is a hustle that I at least realized I was no longer willing to take part in, and also for me and the way that I energetically move in the world, it didn't work for my lifestyle anymore. And I mean, I'm very grateful that it didn't lead me to a chronic illness. I'm very, very grateful. But still, I was burnt out. I wasn't able to do the life things I wanted to. I was struggling for money. I was not stable, not happy in that grind. And even here in LA it's like there are things that I just say no to because I'm like, “Nope,” you know. I kind of like just being home. I don't really wanna travel and work unless it's for something that I really care about.So I really appreciate you bringing that part of it up as well. And I'm curious to know a little bit more about how honoring that energy has led you – how your life is now versus when you were in the hustle of New York and, and the grind and the go, go go and this and that. I'm just curious to hear you speak on that.Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. It's completely different, like wildly, wildly different. And again, you know, I've said it already a couple times on this call, but you know, going back, I would just do things completely differently. I was throwing spaghetti against the wall being like, “Will this work? Will they like me here? Can I lose ten more pounds and be cast in this? Am I the right type?” And now is why I serve spoonie-preneurs. I don't know if we know what Spoon Theory is, if I can educate on that is for people listening being like, “What the fuck is Spoon Theroy?”So Spoon Theory – and I apologize, because I cannot remember who coined this term [Christine Miserandino]. I should go look it up and we can amend. But spoon theory is a way for able-bodied, typically healthy people to understand the dilemmas and challenges and obstacles of living in a chronically-ill body. And they use it through the form of energetic expenditure in the form of spoons. So it's waking up one day and saying, “How many spoons do I have today to use?” Most people with chronic illness are dynamically disabled, which means one day they can't get outta bed and then the next they feel pretty good and they can go to the mall. Oh my gosh, who goes to the mall these days? Did I just give away my age? Who goes to the mall? Hilarious. They can go to the farmer's market, we'll use that, right?Megan Gill: Very Austin/LA of you, yep.Stacy Keele: But they have more energy to wake up, to get ready, to go socialize, to go someplace, right? They have more spoons to give out that day, and then when they wake up on a “bad day,” you know, showering is all they have room for. And , that'll take all your spoons, right? You wake up and you say, “I have five spoons today, and I spent three of them taking a shower.” So now we have to be more mindful of how we spend those last two spoons.So when I say spoonie-preneur, that just means a chronically-ill entrepreneur, and I find that most chronically-ill entrepreneurs find themselves in self-employment because they can't sustain working for other people in dynamically-disabled bodies. And so, it's this stuck between a rock and a hard place because you can't work for somebody else because you keep flaring in your illness. And so, then you remove yourself from that environment and then you start working for yourself, and then you start looking up strategies of how to build a business.Thinking back to being an actor and running my own business, it's like what strategies was I using? Strategies that didn't work for me that were like, “Oh, you know, dye your hair blonde or red, or be different, stand out. Don't wear your glasses in your headshots, or XYZ.” I never wore these in any headshots. And I'm like, curly hair and glasses? That's iconically me. And I was so far away from that back in my New York days, right? But I find that for spoonie-preneurs, you know, you go work for yourself, you try to build your own business, and you're still flaring because you're taking advice from able-bodied biz bros who have these strategies that are like, “Just make it work. Just wake up and do it.” And it's like you cannot do that if you are trying to create more time freedom and capacity to take care of yourself if you're working 80 hours a week. And so, then you're just like how do I make this work, and I find that the key piece lies in your energetic DNA, and it's how to create these actionable strategies that actually work for you instead of trying to, again, fit yourself into a box that you have no business being in.So for me, I'm a projector in Human Design. In Human Design, there are five energy types. There are generators who are doers, manifesting generators like you, who are our divine multitaskers, who are here to do multiple things in their life, those little butterflies that taste the flour over here and say, “Oh, I love this, and then now I'm done and let me go to the next flower.” We have reflectors who make up 1% of the population who have completely open energy that reflect and evaluate the environments and the people they're around. And we have manifesters who are the initiators, and we're all taught to be initiators no matter what we're doing. Capitalism, thank you. If you wanna go get it, make it happen. Do it yourself. Be that captain of the ship, right? But that's only energetically correct for one energy type in Human Design, and that's the manifester. And then I am a projector. We make up 20% of the population. We are not doers; we are seers, we are guides. We're here to help make other people's energy more efficient. So it's less about the doing and it's more about the seeing. We can see further down the timeline for ourselves and other energy types to say, “Oh, what a beautiful mission. What about this thing that you're gonna hit in two years, two weeks, two days that might cause some issues,” right? And so I was operating like a generator. I was like, go, go, go, do, do, do all the time, because that's what our society tells us is valuable, is productive.Megan Gill: That’s also what the land of pursuing a professional musical theater career leads you to innately do. Because without the going to get and the doing and the showing up to the EPA and the ECC and whatever, you're not gonna book, you're never gonna get the work. I just wanted to point that out too.Stacy Keele: Yeah, they teach us it's a numbers game, and in Human Design it is anything but a numbers game. It's checking in with your aura saying, “Do I belong here? Is this what I actually want to be doing? Is this worth my time and energy and capacity, right? Instead of being mindful and intentional, we're told to just like go to all the open calls, and then you wake up at 5:00 AM and you're exhausted by the time it's 10:00 AM and you get a number and it's just like, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And then we start creating all those narratives about ourselves. “Well, I'm just lazy. Well, I'm not good enough. Well, maybe if I just…”Megan Gill: “Well, why can she do it, and I can’t?”Stacy Keele: Yeah, that comparison game, which gets you absolutely nowhere. You know, “Maybe if I just lost 20 more pounds, I could make it work,” right? Instead of, “How about I take a step back and look at my energetic DNA, my Human Design, and say, “Where am I not living in alignment, and how can I shift more into that to create more time freedom, more health,” and time to take care of our bodies and be intentional and mindful and go at it from a very strategic point instead of just showing up to everything, including the things that you're not right for.How many times have we heard from mentors, teachers, professors of, “Even if you're not right for it, go. Just go. Have them see you.” No, stop telling people that.Megan Gill: God, I so agree. And I do think that like our industry, specifically, is shifting. The performance industry is like, “Do not show up for that dance call for fucking whatever, Hamilton, if you're not right. You know, or just read the room, be smart, don't show up for everything. Be discerning.Stacy Keele: Yeah. Don't go to the Book of Mormon call. They don't wanna see you.Megan Gill: Yeah, exactly, and I love that you are speaking about all of this and bringing this to the table today, because something for me that has really shifted the way that I'm living and moving in the world is last year my word of the year was “ease,” because I realized, much like you that I don't operate well when I'm go, go, go, packing my days, doing this and that and running around. I am a ball of stress. I'm a ball of anxiety. I am not well mentally and physically because of it. And I really made the conscious effort to find more ease in my life, not make my life easier, right? But find where I am in this space moving with just a general air of ease, and it truly has changed my life. Granted, we can't achieve that ease every single day. Right. It ebbs and it flows.Stacy Keele: It’s the human experience, yeah.Megan Gill: Exactly. But I think it's so, so, so important that you are doing what you do and that you are helping spoonie-preneurs see, “I have this much capacity. I operate in this way, and that is okay. I don't have to look at my friend over here who is going, going, going every single moment of every single day, always doing, and feel bad about myself and feel bad about my choices to move at a slower pace because that works for me,” and when I honor what works for me, just like with the acting stuff, when you honor what's truly Stacy (the glasses, the curly hair) you show up from an authentic, confident place. And isn't that the beauty of being a human being in the first place?Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. And I love the word ease. And in Human Design, a lot of that is activating your flow state, is activating those moments where you are, as the manifesting generator, attracting. You're responding. You're not initiating, you're not chasing. You're leaning into the things that you love. You're overflowing this beautiful sparkle in your aura, and you are magnetizing the right opportunities and people and collaborations and projects to you to then respond to, and it's so much easier to live your life from that point of view, from that way. And you're right, the human experience is full of ups and downs. It's ebbs and flows. It's peaks and valleys, and just because we learn our Human Design or just because we learn our astrology or just because we learn brain science, right – I also have my life coaching cert in neurolinguistic programming, which is so beneficial in tandem with Human Design, because we create new neural pathways to help support these shifts we're moving into energetically instead of being like, “Eh, I don't know, nothing's working. I don’t know, I guess I'm gonna trust it.” But our brains need that evidence to help activate that flow state and say, “Oh, I do belong here, and it is possible, and things are easier, and I do make more money when I'm in flow.” And just because we learn these things, you know, it doesn't mean that life is going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect, but it helps us navigate it better. It helps us stay regulated instead of that reactivity that is so easy when we do wake up at 5:00 AM to go to the open call and put our name on the unofficial list.To be fair, like I haven't been in New York for almost five years now, which time is freaking flying. So, you know, I imagine they still have unofficial lists. I imagine people are still waking up or rolling out of bed at midnight to be first on our list to see if they honor it, which is wild. But it helps us see how dysregulated are we in those moments of having hundreds of hundreds of people around us warming up, putting on their makeup, curling their hair, also trying to fit into a box they think that casting wants instead of just – nobody wants that.I remember my very first audition in New York, I didn't know how it worked, right? Which is a whole other story of like, why aren't we taught that in college of how do auditions actually work in New York or LA or Chicago, these different markets. We're just not taught that. We're thrown to the wolves saying, “Good luck. Figure it out,” you know? And so, I remember I got there, and I was not ready at all. And I had all my stuff and there was nowhere to sit. And it was raining. Oh God, it was raining. I looked like a wet rat, and all of these girls take off their hoods and they're in perfect condition at 7:00 AM. And I was like, “Oh, is that how we're supposed to do it?” And that's such a good metaphor for all of this, you know? “Is this how I should be doing it? Is this how it's done? How do I do it?” And having these resources and tools and knowledge helps when those moments come when we do feel dysregulated, when we do feel not enough, when we are not in flow state to help activate these strategies to then find our way back into it so much easier and with grace and compassion through love instead of hate.And that's a really big thing that I've learned in these last 15 years, is that you can't change anything from a place of hate. You can only shift from a place of love. And I think that in this industry, we're taught to hate ourselves every step of the way. “You're not pretty enough. You're not the right look. You're not small enough. Shrink yourself. That's the wrong song. That's a bad monologue.” You know, “Who do you think you are? An ingenue? You're a character actor, but that's not right.” You know, “How can we make your voice type match your physical type,” instead of just saying, “This is me, this is what I bring, this is my magic. Put it on stage or don't.”Megan Gill: That's the magic, right? When we can show up as our true, genuine selves and authentically sing what we want to sing, what feels good to us, and wear what we want to wear, what feels good to us, not the jewel-toned dress with –Stacy Keele: I was gonna say that!Megan Gill: – heels that I'm toppling over in with crazy makeup on. It's such a game changer, and I think that, for me, in the last couple of years since getting in touch with the work that I really want to do in the world and really owning myself and showing up as myself and doing all of the work that I have taken a lot of time to do with myself, I think it's just changed the way that I show up in the world so much. My confidence is so much higher than it was ten years ago when I had just graduated college and I had went to pursue this career in Chicago. I look back and I'm just like, “Wow. Like no wonder I didn't –,” I mean, I'm grateful for, like you said, the work that I did have.Stacy Keele: Of course.Megan Gill: And I'm like, oh, well I just, I can't help but imagine how much more work I could have done or what other opportunities I could have had if I was living more in alignment with how I am supposed to show up in the world and if I was able to like my voice confidently and share my art confidently instead of feeling like I had to hide myself and hide all of these things that I didn't want other people to see.Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's so sad.Megan Gill: It really is.Stacy Keele: And not just, you know, how we show up in the room, but also the networking part of it too. When I was in New York, I hated to see a networking event coming. I was like it couldn’t be me. I don't want to talk to these people. I don't want to do this. And now networking is my bread and butter in my business and I love it because it's genuine, it's authentic, it's those connections. In my Human Design, I do have the channel of the salesperson, which is about being able to sell myself, sell my business, sell my services, sell what I love and feel really passionate about because it's coming from a soul place and not an ego place. I'm not trying to scam people. I'm not trying to say, “You need this because…,” you know, those pain points. I hate pain point marketing. It just feels so icky to me, and it's about rising together. If I had that mindset back in New York with networking, oh my gosh, it could have been so different. In the industry it's all about who you know, and it always used to feel so sleazy to me. But I mean, it's, it's true. If you're a good person and you do good work and you show up authentically, people want to work with you. But I had such a mindset of, “'m not a car salesman. I am not gonna go to these events and lie about myself and say I'm a Ferrari when I'm a lemon,” you know, not that I'm a lemon.Megan Gill: No, absolutely not!Stacy Keele: But in the grand scheme of things, the habits we have, the networking we do, the way we view ourselves, the way we've been taught to view ourselves in the deconditioning and deprogramming – you mentioned unplugging from the matrix, how we're designed to hate ourselves and view ourselves, especially as women, because that's where our power lies and they want to take that away and they want us to be small, because what happens if we're expansive? What happens if we show up authentically? What happens if we take up space in the room, you know? Which is why like I do focus on working with spoonie-preneurs and spiritual service providers, but also I would absolutely freaking die to work with actors who are still doing the thing in New York and Chicago in LA and saying, “Hey, don't become chronically-ill like me. Learn the lessons,” or if you are chronically-ill, don't keep pushing those patterns and narratives. Let's take a breath, because you can have wealth as well as health.” It's not one or the other, and it doesn't have to be. It's just about how we get there and how we set up our lives and our businesses and how we navigate the world that matters. And when we do it according to our energetic DNA, it's like a sunroof opens and suddenly the beautiful rays are just shining right upon us. Instead of trying to dodge and find it. “Where's the spotlight? I can change to fit into it.” No bitch, just be you and let the sun shine upon you.Megan Gill: Yeah, and I really do believe that it functions that way, and I feel like I've seen proof with myself and my story that it functions that way.Okay, I have a question for you. As someone who has found themselves so aligned with their work and so passionate about the work that you're doing now, that's very different from pursuing the career of a professional actor, do you think that – knowing everything you know now and who you are now, do you think that had you had these tools and known these things about yourself, hypothetically, when you were going to New York to pursue this career, that it would've completely shifted your relationship to music theater and to pursuing a professional career in that work?Stacy Keele: I think I'm where I am now because of the struggles I went through in college and in my early days in New York, and there's a whole other part of my story even before I got to Wichita. When I was at – I'll say it, I was at Oklahoma City University and boy that did a number on me.Megan Gill: I forgot about this.Stacy Keele: Yes. That was like – I stayed two years. I stayed a year too long. I transferred to Wichita my junior year, which was the boldest, bravest, best decision I ever made for myself because Wichita, you know, as – I don't even wanna say harmful, but as maybe outdated or – we're all doing the best we can with what we know. And I do believe that all of our professors there did the best that they could with nurturing us and trying to set us up for success. They were five million percent better than Oklahoma City.From the minute I stepped foot on Oklahoma City's grounds, I was like, “Wow, this doesn't feel good. This isn't right for me.” I didn't get into their musical theater program. I got into their music program and I was like, “Great, I'll get to know the staff and the people and then re-audition for music theater and get in,” because that's what I was told could happen. And I never worked with any of the faculty there. It was all adjunct. They never even let me talk to anyone who was in the music theater professor, instructor world. I rushed when I didn't want to rush because my sisters were like, “It's the best thing!” because they were big sorority people, and I was not. And so, I let them convince me and then I fell through the cracks. And so, I didn't get into any houses there. I remember calling my parents being like, “Nobody wants me. I feel so unwanted. I feel so unrecognized. This is insane.” I stayed two years. I should have stayed a semester maybe. But then I found myself in Wichita.But Wichita is where I really did a lot of deconstructing of the harm that was done to me at OCU. It was just like a completely different world, but I am who I am now because of all of that, because of those struggles, because of the processing and the integration in the healing and the deprogramming that I've had to do. And because of that, that's how I got into NLP. That's how I got into astrology and Human Design and channeling and being the witchy entrepreneur that I am now. So I have to give props to younger me for surviving all of that and choosing healing. Good for me, good for me, younger, me. I love you. You're the best.But also knowing what I know now, if I could go back, it would be a hundred percent different, like totally different. When I think about my time working at Ellen’s Stardust Diner, which was in Times Square, it was the singing diner, you know, I would work doubles there. I would work doubles into opening shifts. And a double at Ellen’s Stardust Diner, I would work opening to closing doubles, which would be get there at 7:00 AM, leave at 1:00 AM, be back at 8:00 AM. And I made so much money. I was rolling in it, you know? But that's what made me sick. That's what contributed to my illness because I didn't know any better. I thought, “This is how it's done. This is how you make money. This is how you support yourself.” But then you're so burnt out from working that even going to the auditions is hard.Megan Gill: Yeah.Stacy Keele: And so, I would do things wildly different, and I do believe I would be much more successful. And in my own chronic illness, I did have a hysterectomy last year to cure my Adenomyosis. So Adenomyosis is when it lives in the uterus. They're a different pathology but Endometriosis is outside of the uterus. And so, there's no cure for Endo, but there is for Adeno. So I decided to have a hysterectomy, which has been revolutionary for my energy and capacity and pain. I was in debilitating pain 24/7.And so, just now, recently, I've been wanting to get back into the theater scene here in Austin. And so, I’m thinking about using all of these tools that I now have that I give to my clients, that I give to the actors that I do talk to who are still doing the game, you know, I would take all of that and will hopefully create success in that arena as well, here in Austin, when I decide – when I find a show that I want to audition for, when my energy says, “This one,” right? Again, it's not a numbers game. I'm not gonna go to every theater here and be like, “Well, I guess I'll just try.” No, that's not how we do it. So, yes and for that question.Megan Gill: I had a feeling that was gonna be your answer, but I had to ask. And I also have to think of course all of that adversity, if you will, and all of that trauma that you had experienced in your past led you here. And I just commend you for taking that and wanting to help others and wanting to help others do it differently and show people that there is another way. I think that's so, so, so, so important and I feel very aligned with that in my mission as well. It's like, well, if we went through all of this stuff, we have a hand in helping more people not experience and see that there’s another way and see that if you are living in alignment with yourself as an actor, for instance, and you're only showing up to the auditions that really speak to you, that that's when the magic happens and that's when you're gonna end up booking, because it means something to you and because it feels right to you and because your heart's actually in it. I just think that that is really, really, really important. And obviously life is so long, knock on wood, right?Stacy Keele: So long, too long. Just kidding.Megan Gill: So the fact that like you're getting back into the theater is amazing, and there’s so much time to do it all, you know?Stacy Keele: Yeah. It's so funny, I was talking to my friend Dustin, who also lived in New York and did the theater thing and how we're getting older now. I'm 38, and he just turned 40, and we were talking about how we'll still – I was just listening to Rock of Ages, which is one of my silly guilty pleasure musicals. I love it. But how we'll still listen to cast albums and how we have to change our point of view of who we would be. I was listening to Dear Evan Hansen the other day and I was like, “You would be the mom. You would be a mom character now,” which is also so crazy to be like, “Where am I at now in life? What am I auditioning for now in life? What energy do I bring now in life?” It made me laugh that I was like, “Yeah, you would not play Evan Hanson. You would play the dad.” He was like, “Yep.”Megan Gill: Yeah. But also I think that in and of itself can have a lot that comes up for us as far as body stuff goes. And as far as like, “Okay, let me honor who I am now as I'm aging in this industry,” and some people I think, have a hard time with that and really try to fight it. But again, I just believe that the alignment happens when we just trust in what is meant for us and what feels good to us. Aging is obviously this big, scary thing, no matter how much we wanna say, “Oh, I'm fine with it. I'm excited to get older.” It’s still scary. And I think it's just framed differently for actors when you're now thinking like, “Oh yeah, I would be the mom.” I'm 33 at the age where I'm auditioning for mom a lot, especially being very Midwestern. It's like, yeah, I'm giving mom, and that's kind of weird because also I'm not a mom, and I don't even have a partner, and all of that stuff that comes up with it too, which again, I think just ties back to body also, you know?Stacy Keele: Yeah. But Human Design has a hundred percent – I will not say it is the reason I've done all this healing, because it's not, I have to give myself credit for, you know, finding this path before I found Human Design. But it has been such a supportive tool of helping me understand who I need to be in a designed to be in this world and understanding how to age gracefully and how to deconstruct and unplug from this programming of, “Well, you're 33. Where's your husband and your wife, your kids, your white picket fence. Where's that?” And collectively – you know, Pluto's an Aquarius now. This is the age of Aquarius. We're moving towards that more divine feminine leadership, which is about intention and mindfulness and less about the masculine action-packed, “Just do it. Go for it. Show up to every call and make it happen.” Like, no, we're more in the receiving era. So when we can learn our design, right, we learn how to receive those opportunities more instead of trying to take that initiative to say, “Well, I'll just lose that weight, right?” And it's helped me so much find peace in my body, in my chronically-ill body, which is also very difficult, and honoring and being compassionate and gentle with myself on my bad days, on those dynamic-disability days where I have the migraine and I cannot open my eyes, or when I have the cramping in my legs, and I can't walk. Sometimes people with endo need a mobility aid, a cane, and people look at you with invisible illness, and they're like, “You don't need that! What are you doing? You're taking that handicap spot from someone else,” because we look fine, you know?And also if you're a chronically-ill actor or you're on the verge or you feel like you're going that way, you know, please, please, please take a step back and say, “How am I navigating life? Because theater's hard. It's hard emotionally. It's hard mentally. It's hard physically. Eight shows a week if you're on Broadway is hard fricking work. So we have to take care of ourselves in every capacity to be well enough to perform, which is a luxury and a privilege in itself. And so, when we can align with our design, it just helps make all of that so much easier to do.Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, you're doing really, really, really, really, really important work.Stacy Keele: Thank you.Megan Gill: And I'm really glad that you have found this, and I know that it's so important and it's life-changing. Just pointing out another reason to not comment on people'sbodies and to not comment on maybe the aid that they're using. You do not know what people are going through.Stacy Keele: Never.Megan Gill: And you do not know what is going on in somebody's mental, in somebody's physical, and just do not – just don't. Just don’t even. Why…Stacy Keele: Just stop. Just stop. Stop doing it!Megan Gill: Yeah, just don't do it. Just don't do it. Another reason to not do it because, right, especially with invisible illness, you don't know what's going on, or with eating disorders and body stuff. It's so invisible. People think it's not, but it is, and you just do not know what people are going through.Stacy Keele: Yeah, and you think giving somebody a compliment saying, “You've lost weight. You look great,” is a good thing, but you, again, don't know what somebody's going through. Maybe they haven't eaten in four days. Maybe they, you know, have binge-eating disorder, maybe they purge, you know, and it's just reinforcing those patterns by saying, “You're looking good.”Megan Gill: Right.Stacy Keele: You can say other things besides, you know, “Oh, you've lost weight,” you know? You can give other compliments. “You're looking strong, you're looking happy, you're looking –,” you know?I don't comment on people's bodies, but especially in the – this is a whole nother conversation – but the age of GLP-1 inhibitors and things like that, everyone do you. If that's right for you, then I support it. But right when they had started coming out, I had some friends who were on them who were dropping significant weight, and I pulled one aside and I was like, “Listen, I don't comment on bodies. I make it a rule to do that, but you're my friend and I'm worried about you. Are you okay?” And she was like, “Yes, I am okay. Thank you for asking that.” And then I was like, “Great!” And then I let it lie, you know? But yeah, as a rule, just shut up. I tell my nephews that a lot. “Commenting on bodies is not kind!”Megan Gill: Yeah, you don’t know what people are going through. Yeah.Okay, I have a final question for you before we wrap up today. What is your favorite thing or your favorite things about your body?Stacy Keele: Oh, wow. My favorite things about my body are what it does for me. So since I've moved back to Austin, I've gotten into pole dancing, pole fitness, it has been very challenging. I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it is very hard and you have to be strong as hell to do it. And, again, dynamic disability: sometimes I go and I can't do anything, and then other times I go and I nail the combo. And I just really love supporting my body in that giving it a pat on its back saying, “Look what you did for me today. You showed up today,” right?So that is probably the biggest thing lately is what can my body do for me instead of what isn't it doing for me? Especially as a spoony, as somebody who's chronically ill, it's easy to focus on the cans and the won'ts and the used to’s and the mourning, which I've done a lot of, but now I'd like to celebrate it for what it does do on its good days.Megan Gill: Yeah, I think that's such an important reframe, and thank you for sharingthat.Stacy Keele: Wait, what's yours? Can I ask you, can I turn that back on you?Megan Gill: Sure, why not! Mine is my smile and my laugh. It's something that, yes, a smile is physical, but my laugh is not something that you can see, and just the way that you can connect with people through a smile and through laughter and the way that it makes other people feel, and vice versa, the way that other people's laughs make me feel just really, really special to me and something that I really value.Stacy Keele: Yes, you do have a beautiful smile and laugh.Megan Gill: Thanks!Stacy Keele: I love it.Megan Gill: Yay. Well, thank you for coming on today.Stacy Keele: Thank you so much for having me. This was such a wonderful conversation, and I think that it's important to keep having these conversations, these continued conversations. (See what I did there?) Because it is so important, you know, to have different points of view and to have people on to explain their relationships with how they got – with acting in their bodies and the traumas they've experienced (big T, little t), and the healing that is possible within that, because I hope that a lot of people who are experiencing the things that we experienced in college and and in these cities and trying to pursue theater find Continued Conversations, find A Broadway Body, find this community of, “Hey, there's a different way,” and you don't have to create success through hating yourself or trying to fix yourself and turn yourself into these different boxes that you can create success just by being yourself.“They teach us it's a numbers game, and in Human Design it is anything but a numbers game. It's checking in with your aura saying, “Do I belong here? Is this what I actually want to be doing? Is this worth my time and energy and capacity, right? Instead of being mindful and intentional, we're told to just like go to all the open calls, and then you wake up at 5:00 AM and you're exhausted by the time it's 10:00 AM and you get a number and it's just like, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And then we start creating all those narratives about ourselves. “Well, I'm just lazy. Well, I'm not good enough. Well, maybe if I just… Maybe if I just lost 20 more pounds, I could make it work,” right? Instead of, “How about I take a step back and look at my energetic DNA, my Human Design, and say, “Where am I not living in alignment, and how can I shift more into that to create more time freedom, more health,” and time to take care of our bodies and be intentional and mindful and go at it from a very strategic point instead of just showing up to everything, including the things that you're not right for.”- Stacy KeeleStacy Keele is a certified Human Design reader + Neuro-linguistic Programming coach currently located in Austin, TX. She helps guide spoonie-preneurs w/ chronic conditions to reclaim rest, rhythm, + revenue through energetic DNA, building body-led businesses their way!Follow Stacy on IGCheck out her offers + work with Stacy here!More on Spoon TheorySubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my sweet friend and mindset coach, Amy McNabb, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! I’ve known Amy since 2021 when we met in an online business program. She’s slowly but surely become a dear friend of mine as well as the mindset coach I work with as an actor and a business woman. Amy is a voice actor, a singer, and a mindset coach for actors and businesswomen. Amy’s work has impacted me deeply. She has a special way of supporting female actors, and there was no doubt I needed to bring her on for a conversation.Amy shines a light on so many vital body image topics. Her thoughts on removing yourself from the societal matrix is a beautiful representation of what it’s like to be combating diet culture and the harmful side of the beauty industry. She discusses how to navigate wardrobe as an actor both on stage and on screen. She also shares her personal journey with listening to her body and intuitively eating. This conversation with Amy was wildly healing for me, and I hope it’s healing for you too. I hope you walk away reminded of just how much you sparkle, and in the words of Amy, “Shine, baby, shine.” ✨ “ [This conversation] was a cool opportunity to step outside the Matrix a little bit and observe it and also observe it in a way that's not negative. Because I think it's really easy to be like, “This fucking sucks. It sucks that there's diet culture. It sucks that we are supposed to be thin. It sucks that we're in a time that there's a magic pill, magic shot that'll make you thin,” which for some people is super freeing, which is awesome. But it's a hard time, a hard thing, and it's easy to just like, “Damn the torpedoes,” and just be like, “This sucks.” So it's fun to talk about it in a way that's like, well, we're all in it together. We're just kind of in different spots of it, but we're all here.”- Amy McNabbMegan Gill: I'm wondering, because you specifically work with actors and because the stuff you're working on is a lot of the mindset stuff, has body image come up for you with your clients? Obviously, please do not disclose anything. But I'm just curious to know how often that comes up, if that's something that you find yourself approaching with your clients, and just how that shows up for you in your work.Amy McNabb: Yeah. So it does come up, I think, especially because I work with women. All of my clients know this, and I will say it here publicly, I am not a therapist. I'm not a licensed therapist. I do not have a degree in psychology, and I do not have certifications in body image management or eating disorders or body dysmorphia or anything like that. So I'm very careful in those conversations because I'm very aware, being friends with a lot of folks who are. Experts in that area and having dealt with body dysmorphia over the course of my life and disordered eating in various forms over the course of my life, I don’t ever want to say the wrong thing, and I think to each person it is such a sensitive topic, right? So I am very careful when it comes up. And oftentimes in sessions when, when something comes up, whether that's a body related thing or any kind of trauma related thing, that's typically in the conversation where I will say, “So, as a reminder, a therapist. I'm not certified in this. I'm not licensed in this. So anything that we talk about within this, this is gonna be me as a friend, and it's not a professional opinion,” because I just want to be really careful, and I, and I try to just find ways to lift up the person and remind them who they are and how powerful they are and that, you know, they’re beautiful as they are. But it does come up, right, because especially if you're on camera or on stage, you're being seen in an amplified manner. And so, you are feeling more exposed.And so it definitely has come up. It's interesting because it comes up across the board, but you know, with newer actors, a great example is the first time that they try on costumes for a show, let's say for a stage show, and if they're newer, it's like, “I don't like the way my body looks in the costume. I don't like the way I feel. Everyone's gonna see me. Why does she get to be the pretty girl and I have to be the frumpy one? All of that stuff comes up. And in my job in that moment. My job is to really just let them know they're not alone in that feeling and that that's super normal and that no matter what, when you're doing theater, let's say, or film, when you put on the costumes for the first time, there's definitely gonna be a moment where you're like, “How do I look? How does my body look?” And how's a lot of work there as internally as a person to say, “Well, how does this serve the character?” right? But that's always gonna be the second thought.The other area that comes up a lot is in headshots. Yeah. I think in headshots it's – the advice I typically give with headshot is, especially if you've struggled with body dysmorphia or if you've struggled with just the way you look in general, when they come back to you, do a first glance, scroll through, and then you'll get all of those thoughts, all of the negative thoughts. You're gonna notice all the things that you've hated about your body for a long time, or the things that you used to hate about your body, or the things that you love about – you might not notice the love, but the hate's gonna come first. And so, typically I’m like, “Do a flash through. Do not actually make any assessment of them and whether they're good or bad, but put them aside. Take a couple days, and then go back, and typically that nice voice will kind of come through.” So yeah, those are really the two areas where it comes up the most.Megan Gill: This is really interesting to hear because as I'm sure you might be able to relate with this in your own ways, but as someone who's been acting for a long time, both on stage and on screen, I feel I'm so immune almost to seeing myself in these various forms, in various costumes. I mean, I haven't been on stage in a long time, so there's that. But it makes so much sense that for a newer actor, especially someone who's maybe in their adult years or post-college grad to have all of these thoughts come up. Because I feel it's a little bit different when you're a kid. I'm really glad that they have you. And yes, you're not a licensed professional, per se, but the ways in which it sounds you are uplifting your clients and you're reminding them that they're good and reminding them, “Hey, how does this wardrobe serve character?” Because ultimately that's what it's about. Just having that other – one more voice reminding you that you're okay and that sometimes we are our harshest critic.I love the rundown of, “Give yourself some time with your headshots. Try not to be too overly critical,” because oh my god, no matter what, no matter how I'm feeling about myself and my body, I can look at a session, and we can always find something that we don't right? That's inevitable.Amy McNabb: Yeah, and I think, you know, it's interesting, right? Because I think for maybe more seasoned actors, you could still have the moment with the costume where you're like, “No, please don't put me in this in front of other people.” But I think there's more of a muscle that's been worked over the years where you can be like, “Okay, well, I don't have a choice. Or maybe I do have a choice. Maybe I can give feedback and be ‘Hey, can we let these pants out a little bit? Because they're really tight for what I'm trying to do,’” right? So you have more options, I think, when you've been in it for a while, because you know you can ask, but also you do have that muscle of, “All right, well, it serves a character and also there's nothing I can do in the meantime, so moving on.”But that's not to say that I don't have these conversations with people who've been in it for a while because our bodies are always changing, especially as women. I mean our bodies change over the course of a month. The different parts of our cycle have different body reactions, different hormones, different, you know, water retention, all kinds of things, and also different eating habits, which can make people feel a certain way. So I definitely talk to seasoned actors about this also. And often within that, the conversation's less about what my costume looks and more, “I don't recognize myself,” or “I don't feel like me, and it makes me anxious to be seen in this moment.” But what I love and admire about all of my clients and about actors in general is that, typically, we push through that because we love the art so much and we love an opportunity to do what, to quote a client, what makes us feel we're flying. And so, we will move through it. It is painful often, but we'll do it because it's an opportunity to do the thing we love, you know?Megan Gill: I have to wonder how much moving through it and circumventing all of those thoughts and struggles and inner things that we harp on, I wonder how going through that all and getting to the actual art and the execution of the art, then, I don't know, helps us work through all that stuff even on a subconscious level. I don’t know. That's just such an interesting point to bring up.Amy McNabb: So I grew up doing theater, and then I did a tiny, tiny bit of on camera, and then now I do voiceover. Theater's interesting, right? Because you have the moment when you put on the costume and you're like, “Oh boy.” I always played the nerds. I was always a character role. I was not the ingenue. I'm kind of too funny and too loud to be the ingenue. So I was always these other character parts, and so the costumes were always – there was always a moment. In college, I remember walking down the hallway once and the third show that I was in and one of the upperclassmen, I was in another rough costume, just a big flowery, floral hat, and I was supposed to be this kind of unattractive woman. It literally described that, “unattractive woman,” in the script. And this upperclassman who, you know, I loosely had a crush on (but who knows, I had a crush on all of them), he walked by and he just went, “Ugh, woof,” to having another costume that was unattractive.Megan Gill: Wow.Amy McNabb: I remember kind of laughing with him because he wasn't a bad dude. He wasn't being a jerk. He was just kind of being like, “Oh my God, you're in another shitty situation as a 19-year-old,” you know? And I, but I remember feeling that and then being like, “Yeah, but I'm really funny. It works for the thing.” And it hurt, and the thing that I stood by was – someone said this to me, actually I forget, it might have been a teacher. In theater, and really in all of it, yes, I had to wear the costume on stage. That's when everyone sees you, but everyone also sees you when you come out at the stage door. And so, you get to come out as you, and I love the way I look and I love who I am and I, you know, was really proud of my work, and I don't always love the way I look, but you know, there was enough confidence behind it that it was like I get to come out with my brown hair and the clothes that I chose and the makeup that I want or don't want. I get to decide. So there was some agency in that that kind of gave me some freedom. And I think that’s also what I tried to give to clients who were thinking about it in theater.But in film, I remember the first time I did a commercial workshop in New York, and there was a monitor what was on the camera. I remember trying to focus on the teacher and constantly just looking to my right, being like, “That's my face. That's my face real big and close up and all of you were looking at it twice.” And I didn't say it, but my system was kind of glitching out because I was 22, 23, and I was like, “I don’t like this. I don’t like that there.” I think now at 35, I think I'd feel a little differently about it just because there's just a different level of confidence at this age.Megan Gill: Right. I can very much relate to that trajectory as well of coming up in theater and it's almost yeah, you're in the fitting room, you're with the wardrobe designers trying on your costumes, XYZ, and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and then you're in the dressing room getting ready for the show. And you obviously can see yourself in the mirror. But then once you're on stage, it's this interesting thing of there is no mirror. You are just there. And there is a bit of freedom in that I feel we do not have when it comes to film and TV and the hyper ability to see yourself, or even if you're on set and you aren't looking at the monitor, you're still so aware that you're being seen by X amount of people potentially in very close-up shots or whatever it may be, you know?Amy McNabb: Yeah, and one of the things as I moved to LA and started doing some, you know, indie film type stuff, short films and things, because I think when it comes to body image and. way we look at all this stuff. For me, the two things that have always gotten me are the size of my body or the curves and then acne, because I grew up with pretty bad acne, and I still occasionally have it, but overall it's cleared up just being in my thirties. But I remember in my twenties moving here and being like, “Oh my god, I'm gonna do on camera.” And I always had hormonal breakouts down here on my chin. And I remember asking a makeup artist, I was like, “Can you cover this?” And I remember her saying, “We can cover color but not texture.” And it freaked me out because I was like this is just gonna be permanent, in these films? You're just gonna be able to tell?And it's wild because our TV quality has gotten better and better and better. And so, when I watch some shows that are older, I'm oh, you can tell that they had acne that was covered by a certain type of makeup, but the quality of TV that we were watching, the technological quality, you couldn't tell, but now you can because everything's high def or whatever. And it's really cool and also, as an actor, very frustrating, and it's a mental gymnastics game. The thing that sucks is that, as an actor, those aren't the mental gymnastics you want to be doing. You want to be doing mental gymnastics with the character and the intention and the scene and the chemistry, and also the logistics of what the hell the director just told you to do. You don’t want to be doing mental gymnastics about how does my stomach look? How does my face look? How does my hair look? But it's really hard.Megan Gill: Right, right. It's two sides of the same coin, where on one side, as the actor, it is a struggle with something, like you were speaking about having acne and being like, “Okay, I'm gonna be the person that's gonna show up on camera.” And it's really vulnerable and can be really scary to be that actor showing up in that way. And yet at the same time for viewers and people watching to be able to say, “Look, she has acne too. It's okay!” To not villainize it as much, but it's unfortunate that our society has villainized all these things, particularly about women's bodies, that us as the actors then feel this insecurity showing up with these “societal imperfections.” That's such a delicate dance. Yes, it's so important for us to show up with these things that make us feel insecure and put them on display, if we want to, if that's something that we're passionate about, which I feel is something that I am trying to do more and more of so that others can feel less alone, so that others can feel more seen in their insecurities.Amy McNabb: Yeah, and one of the catches to it, though, that I have found is kind of like stepping outside the matrix. It's if you decide – I’m just gonna speak to a woman's experience because it's the one I have. I know that men also have eating disorders, and I know that men also struggle with body dysmorphia and it's just in a different way. You know, as a quick aside, when I think of the sitcom trope, it's the woman is hot and the man doesn't have to be as hot, but he does have to be funny. There is kind of an interesting dynamic there to assess, but that's a digress.But to come back to women, you know, if you decide to be the kind of person who does the work to undo what society has put on us, what the patriarchy has put on us, and what diet culture put on us – as millennials, we grew up reading those magazines that were like, “You could have a body like Britney Spears, just if you don't eat bagels in the morning and you just do 15 minutes of belly dancing.” And, no, these celebrities were on – first of all, the amount of dancing that woman did, just let alone everything else. But that kind of communication really hurt our brains. But if you decide to do the work to come out of that, you are living outside the matrix, and when you get to set, you are going to encounter other women who are not living outside the matrix –Megan Gill: Yep.Amy McNabb: – who are very much so inside it, and we're not judging them, but communicating with them is really hard because you might have someone who's inside the matrix who's still hurting. You might have someone who's inside the matrix who's like, “I crush it here. I feel great. I've got the body I want. I'm not worried about it.” But more likely you're gonna run into someone who, you have done the work – I'll speak just for myself.I have done work to try to intuitively eat rather than panic, right? Or rather than not eat for most of the day, because I don't want to be a burden to someone on set or in the studio, I do the work to bring my food and intuitively eat, right? But then you go to lunch, and another woman had to grab crafty or had to grab McDonald's to eat, and they're beating themselves up for eating McDonald's like, “Ugh, this fattening,” you know, “Oh my god, I'm eating McDonald's,” right? In that moment, you have to simultaneously put your guard up so that you don't fall into the matrix and also, for me, decide, “Do I want to try and help? Do I want to contribute to this conversation and how? You have a couple options. Option number one is you don't say anything. Option number two is you agree with them and just play along in the matrix game. Option number three, you know, which I chose recently was – what did I say? I was like, “Oh, that looks delicious. That looks so good. I'm stoked that you got McDonald's. What a treat, right? That's such a fun thing to get a Happy Meal.” Also what well-named marketing to get a Happy Meal, right. And then the fourth option, which I didn't do because I didn't know the person really well, but another person on set did, they were like, “Hey, remember we don't shame food. You don't have to shame yourself for food.” But that person knew them. They're good friends, so it was a reminder to them. So stuff like that, you do have these options.But all that to say, when you're trying to unpack this stuff and trying to make it in the world, you have to recognize you are kind of living outside the matrix a bit, and you're gonna interact with people that are still very much so – and men too, right, who are very much so still inside the matrix, and you have to decide do you ignore it, do you participate in it, do you try and teach it, or do you call it out? And it's not easy because your own stuff can get triggered and brought up by it, you know?Megan Gill: Right, absolutely. It's almost more of an emotional weight to carry than to not only have to worry about ourselves, but to want to help others. Yet at the same time, I think that you put it very beautifully because you have agency and you have the choice to maybe just say nothing or to maybe play along, even though, I mean, I don't love playing along. I never feel comfortable with playing along, but sometimes if that's what you got to do to protect yourself or to care for your nervous system in that moment, then that's what you got to do. And then there are other times where maybe you can chime in like you did. I love that you did that because that stuff is so important too. But at the same time, it's such a delicate, nuanced conversation because it's not our job to do that for other people. Yet, I do think when we feel empowered to do so and when we feel safe to do so, I think it's important if we can do that and can say something, you know?Amy McNabb: And I was really excited because at the end of that day, that person happened to mention it again and was like, “And it was really good! The McDonald's was really good! And I was like, “Oh, that's so fun to hear, right?And also I want to be clear too, that the choice to play along – I think when I was younger I probably played along a little bit more, and then now that I'm older, I realize that my voice doesn't have to be heard in every situation. That was something I had to learn was I don't have to contribute to every conversation. So sometimes for me, silence makes the most sense when my nervous system isn't feeling so good, if I'm feeling super safe. That day, I happened to have food that I felt great about and I felt I had prepared, so I was really calm. But let's say it had been a different day where I hadn't eaten anything because I was rushing around and running late and then that happened, and let's say I was also eating McDonald's or something, or eating Burger King or whatever, I might not have been able to participate as much because maybe I would've been a little bit more insecure about whatever.So in that moment, silence is okay. We don't have to martyr ourselves to, to try and fix the fucking patriarchy. That's not gonna happen. You’ve got to do what's right for you. But it is imp I think it's important as you do work on yourself and the emotions, and this is true for everything, right? You get to decide how you talk to people who maybe are still in the matrix or not.Megan Gill: I agree fully and just making sure that you're checking in with yourself day to day, because like our bodies change day to day, our mental states, how we relate to our bodies, how we're feeling changes day to day too. So I think it is important to note that it can shift, and we can still be doing good for the things we care about and doing good for other people and fighting the patriarchy slowly but surely, and that's a little bit more sustainable than being like, “Okay, I'm gonna go out into the world today and I'm gonna combat anyone that wants to say anything about blah, blah, blah.”Amy McNabb: And also, let's be honest, if I were having a bad food day, meaning I felt shitty about whatever I was eating, not what I was eating was bad. But let's say that I was having a bad body day and I was beating myself up at lunch about whatever I was eating, I do not want someone on a fucking soap box. If I'm having a bad food day or a bad body day, and I say something in alignment with that, I don't want someone on a fucking soapbox to come up to me and be like, “By the way…” You know, I don’t need that. So it is important, too, to recognize the moments where you can participate in the moments where you can help and the moments where maybe silence is okay. You’re not anybody's therapist, and you don't have to fix everything.But yeah, to me, I think it's just important to remember everybody's at a different place in their journey. I've read intuitive eating, and I've done a bunch of work, and I still struggle with my body and I still struggle with food. And sometimes I feel bad, and you know, everybody's issues are different. I no longer feel bad about the food that I eat, but I do feel bad sometimes about the lack of movement in my life, right? And then some people have movement down on lock, meaning they love what they're doing with their body. They feel good about how they're moving it. And I don't really have that yet. So it's not like I figured out intuitive eating and I'm deciding when to tell people. It's just like we're all in progress. And so, recognizing that you're not further along or behind on any journey, you're just on yours, and then you can decide when and how you share that with people I think is the distinction, you know?Megan Gill: Agreed, and just the recognition that everyone is on their own journey, and you don't necessarily know unless you're close with someone, right? You don't necessarily know what that boundary is or where they're at. So just being careful as well. Like, yes, I love to chime in and be like, “There's another way,” or “That's okay. Let's not villainize the food you're eating. It’s good, it's yummy.” I love doing that stuff, but also I find it a lot easier to do it with the people that I'm closer to. If one of my close friends over here is talking shit about her body or saying something weird about food or whatever, I feel a lot more comfortable to be like, “Hey, I know you. I know we don't have to do that,” you know?Amy McNabb: Yeah, one of the most impactful things at the beginning of me trying to undo some of the diet culture stuff was actually a friend of mine who was not saying anything about me or my diet culture or what I was doing, but we were out in LA and there was a juice company that had one of those foldable chalkboard signs and it said, “Juice cleanse! Lose X amount of pounds in whatever amount of days.” And she just goes, “That fucking infuriates me.” And I was like, “Whoa, why?” And she was like, “Because it's bullshit. It's peddling diet culture. That's crap. That's not okay.” And we were walking and I thought about it. This had to have been three or four years ago, maybe more. She's actively saying that marketing isn't okay. “That's bullshit. It's a lie also, and it's false advertising. And also why is that what we're trying to give people. What is this?” And I think that her just questioning and rejecting some of the diet culture was really for herself, right? Because I don't think she was trying to teach me anything. She was just saying, for her, “I’m just gonna just call out when I see diet culture and say no,” you know? And even that can happen on menus and stuff, right? Where it's the low fat thing, the healthy thing, healthy choice. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And the healthy choice is not always the lowest calorie choice, you know? So I think that that was really helpful for me too was just someone kind of calling it out first. I was like, “Oh, maybe I don't have to participate in this,” you know?Megan Gill: The number one thing that comes up for me is being around friends or people or whoever, and you're out to eat and they're like, “I'm not gonna get the fries. I'm gonna get the salad.” It's always fries versus salad fries versus salad. And it's we're villainizing the fries and we're – yeah, fries are always the move. Come on. It's become this thing where I've noticed that it's the fries are the villain, and the angel is the salad. And that's the way that I feel it's related with a lot of people instead of it being, “Oh, today I'm really craving fries,” which is kind of like – I am also familiar with intuitive eating, and I've worked really, really hard to get to a place where I am listening to my body and what it wants on that day, in that moment. And then other days I feel I really want the salad, but not because I'm trying to be “healthy” or I'm trying to have a “cheat day” with the fries. I feel like that's an interesting conversation too.Amy McNabb: It's funny, it just happened the other day where I had this moment where I went, I was out and I got a burger, and I got a salad on the side instead of tater tots or chips or whatever. And I made that choice because, just in that moment, because by the way, the tater tots at this bar, they're so good. They're my favorite thing. But what I recognized for me was I was like I haven't had a ton of vegetables today, and I will probably feel better if I have vegetables. And also one of the main – this is my logic, just walking you through my logic, right? I was like one of the main ways that we eat burgers here at home when I cook is I just make the burgers and we have a big spinach salad with balsamic, and then I do air-fried sweet potatoes, and it's one of my favorite meals and it's one of my husband's favorite meals.So what happened was at the bar, I was like, “Oh, I could get tater tots, and I was like, “Oh yeah, I haven't really had a lot of vegetables, and I really like burgers alongside salads. I'm just gonna get the salad today and see if I like their salad,” because I had never had it. I got it. I still got bread, the burger was still on bread, right? We're not damning the carbs. I was just like let me see.So I get it, and one of the people I was with was like, “Oh, you're being good. You got a salad.”I was I was like, “I'm not really being good. I just, honest to god, wanted a salad. I just kind of wanted it,” and I walked him through what I had thought through, and I was like, “But those tater tots are the bomb. I get those other days. It's just not today.” But it's really challenging when we've been given language that's like, “This is good, this is bad,” when it comes to food, as opposed to – not every choice we make can be intentional. We do not have enough bandwidth to be intentional every single time we make a decision. We make a hundred million decisions a day, a scientific number, okay? But when I think about the fact that it's being asked to be intentional about every bite of food you put in your mouth is asinine. We don't have bandwidth for that in the society that we live in.So if it's like, “Well, I'm just trying to be intentional about I want more vegetables.” No, in that moment I looked at the menu and I was like, “Oh, I wonder if I'd their salad.” And the thing about trying to do this work and still doing the work and still trying to figure it out is it takes time. It takes time to be like what do I want to eat, and what purpose will this food serve?We went out for pizza and ice cream last week because I was like I want to celebrate and I want pizza and ice cream. Didn't think twice about the fact that there was no salad. I didn’t give a shit. Now, the flip side of it is, for me, I want to feel good in my body. That changes day to day on what makes me feel good in my body. Sometimes hiking makes me feel good. Sometimes yoga makes me feel good. Sometimes burgers make me feel good. Sometimes salads make me feel good, you know? But I guess just to speak for myself, all I'm trying to do is feel good in my body. I'm not on a soapbox here. There are still parts of my body that I want to change, and honestly, the thing I'm grappling with the most is how do I change my body – roll with me here because it's gonna be hard to communicate. How do I change my body without getting stuck in diet culture, without going backwards to what I grew up with? How do I feel powerful in my body without being hard on my body? How do I feel confident and sexy and beautiful as I am right now and also be okay with changing it? That's the wrestling match that I am in right now. My wrestling match is no longer with salads and fries. But I say all that because I don't want to come on here and talk and be like, you know, some people have read intuitive eating and some people haven't. That's not, you know what I mean?Megan Gill: Of course, of course.Amy McNabb: I think everybody has their wrestling match internally. It might be with body, it might not be, but I guess what my point here, I guess, is that everybody is in a wrestling match with something internally in their head. And since this is about body image and stuff, this is the one that I'm currently in, and my goal within these wrestling match matches are actually to just try and take away the intensity of it and let it be more an informed debate, a debate team, right, or a calm conversation with my body, calm conversation with myself, rather than what it used to be as a kid, which was a WWE fucking wrestling match. There's a loud crowd, and there are a bunch of voices, and it is angry and it is aggressive, and it is mad. And if I ate the fries, I was angry.And so, now I'm trying to just, whatever the conversation is, whatever the fight is, whatever the challenge is, I'm just trying to – personally, the thing I'm on right now is just trying to take away the of intensity of it and maybe just have it be more peaceful and maybe have it be more patient with it and trust that I'm not gonna have an answer today. Does that all make sense?Megan Gill: That truly makes so much sense to me, and it's something that I – not to speak for a lot of people, a lot of women out here, but it's something that I think a lot of us are battling. And what you just described so beautifully is one of my big questions of how can we feel empowered in this body today and love this body today yet want to change it in various ways, whatever that may be for you, because of course, nobody is out here like, “I love every single thing about my body.” Unfortunately, that's just not the way the world works, and we're all going to want to change something and/or at some point our body's gonna change, and we're gonna want to maybe change it to be this thing that it was before. But putting the focus on our general wellbeing and feeling good in our body, which is something that you kept bringing up that I love, that I think is a huge component of all of this, focusing on feeling good in our body is only gonna give us the space and the time and the energy and the allowance to change those things, or to change those things in a free, peaceful way, like you were saying, instead of in a fight, because I was in that fight as well, and it's almost like the fight has been exchanged for freedom. A lot of what I experience is a lot of freedom, even though there's still a battle, if you will.Amy McNabb: It's really interesting because they come up in times when, for me, I'm in a new situation. I told you when I met you in person, we were talking about body image stuff. because that's your brand, and we were talking about it, and I get nervous when I meet clients in person for the first time because you've never seen my full body. You know, I'm 4’11”. Most people don't realize that. I have tall girl energy. She's a small girl. The personality is ginormous in person, but I'm short, I'm curvy, you know, I'm gonna look different than I look on Zoom. And so, I expressed that to you and I remember you saying, “Oh my god, that makes me really sad. That makes me upset. I don't like that for you, right? And I've thought about that a lot since then, and I was like, yeah, that is a shitty thought to have. It's a shitty thing to try and navigate.And what I've tried to come back around to is this other piece of confidence, which I try to circle back to the idea that's like when you try to take a picture of the moon, you just cannot capture what it is like to be standing in real life looking at the moon at that moment. This is not my own idea, this is something that came off of Instagram, I'm sure. But that feeling. I know that I radiate in person and on Zoom, I love my personality. I'm funny, I'm smart, I'm confident in various ways. I'm helpful, and I sparkle. And I also see the sparkle in other people. This is not just to me, right? I've met clients in person too, who I knew on Zoom, and I'm like they do look different in person, and it's never worse. It's always better because it's not on a computer screen, right? And what's cool about that is when you meet someone in another dimension, right – because this is two dimensions, right? When you meet someone in another dimension, you really get to see more of their soul in a lot of ways, right? Because you get to see how it's expressed in their body and you get to see how do they move through the world and how do they interact with the world. Is it fast? Is it slow? Is it jerky? Is it smooth? Is it clumsy? Is it graceful? All of those things are really beautiful parts of all of us.And so, all that to say, I try to remind myself that, you know what? I do wish I was taller, and you know what? Sometimes I wish I was thinner. Most of the time I wish I was stronger. That's the thing I'd love to work on. And this is the kind of language change for me is I’m like, oh, sometimes I just wish I was more physically capable of some of the things I want to do for longer. If I go on a hike, it can be really challenging. We go to Colorado sometimes, and those hikes are a doozy because I don't do them all the time, know? And I'm all right, so there are things I want my body to do. There are things I want to change, sure. And I can change them if I want to, but also I sparkle. And so, that's what I try to circle back to when I can. And like I said, for anybody reading this or listening to this, you also sparkle. So the best we can kind of do is try to remind ourselves of that when we get really in our head. And that's what I try to do on my harder days.Megan Gill: That's really, really lovely and just a reminder that sparkles can speak louder than those thoughts about how we're not good enough or how I wish I was this, or I'm worried about this. The sparkle will outshine no matter what. It’s so true. And when people meet you, they see the sparkle. They don’t see all of the things that you are worried about. I feel that's just true in general. In the ways that we think we're always in our head about ourselves and how judging ourselves, but in reality, no one else is judging you the way you are. They're most likely seeing you through this lens of sparkle. So, I love that. Ah.Amy McNabb: Yeah, and I think too, you know, what I have found for myself and as we kind of come to a close here, I think, what I have seen for myself too is I am in my head thinking about, “Gosh, I wish these pants were looser. I wish they were different. I wish I'd worn a different outfit. I wish I wasn't in bright pink and everyone else is in black and navy blue,” whatever the kind of thing is that I'm thinking about, that is when the sparkle dulls.Recently, I went to a pool party, and everyone else was in navy blue, black, and jeans. And I was in Barbie Pink and Kelly Green. I was on Love Island, and they were on the Magnolia Network. It was different. And I walked in, and I texted my husband and I was like, “Oh no. I am in bright pink.” And his response, knowing me for so long, and he's so wonderful, was, “Shine, baby, shine.” Because at that point I’m like, well, I’m in neon pink, so there's no escaping that. So you know, and in previous iterations I would've left, and I had a change of clothes in my bag for later that evening that were, you know, sage green and black. And so, I could have changed to fit in with the Magnolia Network, but I was like, “Mm, I guess I'm on Love Island.” The hours that I was there, there was still a little voice in my head saying, “Are you too much? Are you being too much? Should you shift your body language? Should you cover your cleavage?” because I'm in a bathing suit. “Should you, you know, should you.” But I still showed up, and I still sparkled, and I still made a friend. And I will admit, when I left that thing I was like, “Phew, I can breathe again.” But I stayed, and I'm really proud of myself for staying and not bailing, you know?Megan Gill: I'm so proud of you too, and what a good challenge to be able to take yourself through those mental gymnastics that are so difficult to navigate sometimes.Amy McNabb: Yeah, if nothing else, I think my thoughts on it are just, “Shine, baby shine.” We are sparkle in various ways, and that doesn't have anything to do with what your body looks like.Megan Gill: I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that. I have one more question for you before we wrap up, and I know I'm springing this on you. What is your favorite thing about your body, or things about your body?Amy McNabb: Fun! Oh, what is my favorite? What are my favorite things about my body? I have plenty. I think that bodies have things that they do and then the ways that they look, right? So we've got both.I think as far as the way they look, I really my face, and I like my hair. I think I'm a pretty girl. And I love my eyes. They're so blue and sometimes they change to gray and green, and it's really fun. I love, on overcast days, my eyes turn a bright, metallic gray and they're really cool. And so I do love my eyes the most, as far as what I look like.What do I love most about my body in regards to what it can do? I mean, I'm so lucky I have a healthy body. I’ve got little things here and there, but she can move, she can run, she can play, she can sing, she can create. If I had to pick one thing, the fact that I can sing is so cool and it's just not something I learned. Obviously, I've made it better, but this thing makes a cool sound when I want to sing, and it knows what notes to sing. What? That's so fun. it's just you play a note on a piano and I can sing that note. That is magic to me, you know?Megan Gill: Yes, I know. I'm emotional right now because you're so right.Amy McNabb: Right? It's so cool. I didn't learn that. I mean, I learned it kind of, but as far as for me, I've been a singer since I was a kid, and it connects me to my mom and my sister, both of whom are singers. So as far as what is my favorite thing about my body, the fact that I can sing. The favorite look, eyes, but I don’t know, the singing is pretty magical, man.Megan Gill: It is magical. Oh gosh. Thank you for being here with me, Amy, and having this conversation.Amy McNabb: It was fun. I liked it. I appreciate being here. It's a cool opportunity to step outside the matrix a little bit and observe it and also observe it in a way that's not negative, because it's really easy to be like, “This fucking sucks. It sucks that there's diet culture. It sucks that we are supposed to be thin. It sucks that we're in a time that there's a magic pill, magic shot that'll make you thin,” which for some people is super freeing, which is awesome. But it's a hard time, it’s a hard thing, and it's easy to just damn the torpedoes and just be like, “Everything sucks.” So it's fun to talk about it in a way that's like, “Well, we're all in it together. We're just kind of in different spots of it, but we're all here.”“  I'm so lucky I have a healthy body. I’ve got little things here and there, but she can move, she can run, she can play, she can sing, she can create. If I had to pick one thing [that I love about my body], the fact that I can sing is so cool. And it's not something I learned. This thing makes a cool sound when I want to sing, and it knows what notes to sing. That's so fun. You play a note on a piano, and I can sing that note. As far as what is my favorite thing about my body, the fact that I can sing the favorite. Singing is pretty magical, man.”- Amy McNabbAmy is an LA based Voice Actor and Founder of Actors Encouraged, a space dedicated to supporting ambitious, heart centered actors on their journey to success. As a Mindset + Confidence Coach, she'll transform your roadblocks and big feelings into a map for building your best life and cultivating your happiest career. As a fellow actor, she experiences the high highs and low lows right alongside you, enhancing and informing her coaching.Work with AmyJoin ✨The Spark Community for Ambitious ActressesAmy's Acting WorkSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my dear friend and fellow actor and model, Chloé Godard, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Chloé is an actor, hand model, fit model, yoga teacher, and voiceover artist, along with a close friend of mine. From working with her hands on set for companies like Mattel, to fit modeling for shoe companies like Lulu’s, to acting in national commercials and film, Chloé is no stranger to her body parts being in the spotlight.In our conversation, we touch on so many important topics. Chloé shares how she strives to use inclusive language while leading her yoga classes, the importance of listening to cues from your body so you can properly nourish and move your body, and how we have to reframe what our personal best looks like because our bodies are constantly shifting and evolving from day to day. There’s so much wisdom Chloé shared in our conversation, and I cannot wait for you to listen!“  I have been thinking about, too, inclusivity for all bodies, and I know there's gonna be so many things that I'll miss, but I've even been thinking about how not everyone has ten fingers and ten toes. So instead of cueing people, and for this example saying, “Stretch your ten fingers out on the mat,” I don't know, I just say, “Stretch your fingers out on the mat.” Some people have trauma with their body, and using trauma-inclusive language, I find that fascinating and I wanna even learn more about that. You could just go on and on how different people's minds are and their bodies and the things that go on with that, but I think we do have to give you ourselves grace and other people grace at the end of the day.”- Chloé GodardChloé Godard: My whole life story through my body. I guess we'll kinda start from the beginning.Megan Gill: Okay. I love it.Chloé Godard: I was a dancer. I didn't do sports, so I danced competitively for 10 years with my sister, which was so fun. I guess some people do say dance is a sport, you know? There are two different schools of thought for that, but I loved dance. It was such a fun way to be creative and express myself and use my body. That was probably when I was in middle school to high school, and then that's when I got into more theater and stuff like that.Then when I went to college, I danced a little bit less, and I was a little bit more in the theatrical realm, and you probably get this too, doing theater in college is a lot of body movement still. I also did stage combat, so I did a lot of training with rapier dagger, knife onstage, physical contact. So looking back, I feel like I have been really in tune with my body and have used it in so many different shapes and forms, constantly using it even though I was not an athlete.Then when I came to Los Angeles for acting, I stopped dancing and was using yoga as my form of fitness. I've been doing yoga since I was 15, so a long time. And I'm now a certified yoga teacher as of March of this year, 2025. So that's been such a fun journey doing it for so long but now doing it in a different aspect. Then being in Los Angeles trying to support myself acting for so long is when I fell into hand modeling, and I've done a lot of toy commercials, and that has been very fun because I never imagined being a hand model or knowing what a hand model was.Megan Gill: Knowing that your hands could be such a hot commodity in your career.Chloé Godard: Yeah! Front and center. So I wanted to play piano when I was younger, but my parents couldn't afford to get me lessons, so I played guitar a little bit, and then my dad would just always compliment my hands. He'd say, “Oh, you have such beautiful thin, long fingers.” So then with hand modeling, that was always just a funny thing. I'd be like, “Oh, well I guess people have noticed my nice hands. So I do feel like they're proportionate to my body. But yeah, it's been fun to see a part of me on screen and also knowing that it's my hand. I'll see certain commercials and I'll be like, “Oh, okay, that's my hand,” or I won't remember a commercial, and I'll look back and I'll say, “Oh yeah, that's my thumb.” Now I feel like I know my hands so well. How often do you look at your body parts and know what they look like, you know? Do you know what your elbow looks like? Can you pick your foot out of a lineup?Megan Gill: Maybe, honestly. I don't know. I'm kind of weird like that. I like my feet, so I look at them.Chloé Godard: I’m like, “I could put my hand outta a lineup.” And my wrist is my favorite body part. I love my wrists. They're nice and little, tiny. I like the little bones. I love seeing the little veins on the insides. I'm like, “Oh, I'm alive. That's so nice and beautiful.”Megan Gill: Blood is pumping through me.Chloé Godard: Blood is pumping through me.Megan Gill: And how cool also that your hands, this thing that we almost like – I don't mean to speak for you, but I almost take for granted, or we never look at our hands and we're like, “What a good part of our body.” Well, when I was transcribing, I was maybe praising my hands like, “Wow, you're doing a lot of good work for me,” especially when I started to notice they would get sore and tired and all of that, but what a cool experience to connect so deeply and to have such a strong relationship with this part of your body that not many people probably have a strong relationship with.Chloé Godard: Yeah! I'm so grateful for my hands, and through yoga I also learned how important your feet are to your body, and just like that is your foundation and how you stand upright and straight. Your foot health is so important. So the more knowledge that I gain and the more experiences that I have, I'm finding that I find a greater appreciation for my body and the things that they can do. Like my feet, like using my hands.I'm very protective of my hands. Cooking in the kitchen, I love to do. I can't rock climb anymore, getting calluses. I love strength training, so I wear gloves at the gym. So it's really, taking care of your body is something I find really important instead of shaming my body. I think I want to have this healthy body for as long as I can. So like strength and mobility are really important to me and feeding myself, nourishing myself. So I just feel such gratitude for the body that I have and for all the things that I can do, yeah.Megan Gill: I love that. I think that's such a beautiful reframe too. Instead of expending energy, like you said, shaming your body or the things you don't like about your body or the way your body looks, you're expending energy on. Taking care of these parts that are so integral to your career, to how to your livelihood. And not only that, but I think that's just such an important lesson that I'm looking at that thinking, wow, that's so lovely that being a hand model has kind of – I don't know if it's synonymous with this appreciation you have for caring for these parts of your body so deeply.But I am even thinking, because I also am. In a yoga practice, myself and my hands and feet are what get me through each of my classes, right? And so, even just having appreciation for, “Wow, these hands and these feet allow me to go to a yoga class and move my body in the way that I enjoy moving my body, and how freaking cool is that?” MaryJane really wants to be a part of this conversation.Chloé Godard: She’s like, “I love yoga.” Downward facing dogs.Megan Gill: “I love my paws too!”Chloé Godard: Oh, MaryJane, you have the cutest paws. Wow, sweet girl.Megan Gill: But I love that. Something that I really – as someone who, myself, has struggled with a lot of disordered eating habits in my past and who is now coming to this place of having a really, for the most part, pretty healthy relationship with my eating habits and food and the way that I nourish myself, I really appreciate observing you nourish yourself. And I think that you just do it unapologetically and you, from what I can tell, just seem very intuitive and joyful about the ways you're nourishing yourself.It's very interesting for me, it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. So I kind of pay attention to these types of things in my friends, not only the language that they use about their bodies and food and exercise, but also their behaviors. And that's something that I really admire in you and I think is so important because so many people put so much focus on it or have a tendency to shame themselves. I just think that that's really lovely and wanted to share that with you.Chloé Godard: Thank you. Where your mind goes, your energy flows, what is that saying? Something like that. So yeah, I just try to think of what gift can I give myself? So if I wanna go work out in the morning, setting my electrolytes and my coconut water out the night before and like a protein bar or something because I've noticed the more I get attuned to my body and certain rituals, what is a help to me.Working out first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and really tired, I can't do things that I normally can do, but if I get a good night's sleep, if I have a little something to eat, if I have my water the morning of or night before, then I notice I can hold crow pose longer, or I can lift a little bit heavier weight. So it's just trying to set myself up and talking to myself most of the time in a kind way to help me. Because I wanna be my own best friend, not my worst enemy.Megan Gill: Yeah. Amen to that right there. That's honestly half the battle, and I think it's so difficult to build that friendship with yourself. I'm having all these conversations, I call them me-to-me conversations where I'm like, “Me-to-me.” But those conversations used to be very negative and very toxic, and it was just shame, shame, shame, beating myself up left and right. Whereas now, they've shifted to a lot friendlier conversations. And I think that that's like such an interesting paradigm shift that I wanna explore more.And that I hope more people start to explore a little bit more too because I think it's really important to befriend ourselves and that just helps us get one step closer to connecting to our body and being able to listen when you're like, “Oh, I can't hold crow pose because I needed to eat a protein bar before this yoga class,” or whatever it may be. Because if we're so disconnected from our bodies, we can't hear when they're trying to communicate with us, right? Or if we are just shaming our bodies left and right, that creates this disconnect that doesn't allow us to hear what our body, that's so knowledgeable, is trying to tell us.Chloé Godard: Yeah, be your best self, intuitive. As they say intuitive eating and yeah. I feel like my self-awareness just continues to grow and grow, especially in this yoga teacher training that I just recently took. I was going through the biggest low of my life, and it was so hard being present, which really is what yoga is because your body shifts day to day, how you feel day to day. So your yoga practice (you know, they call it a practice), even if you do the same sequence every day, it's always going to look a little bit different in your body. And being in the moment is so integral, but can be so difficult. Listening to your body is such a fun thing and trusting your body.Especially doing yoga six times a week in this training was such a fun challenge for myself to find – because you think – oftentimes I'll hear, “Find your edge,” and does your mind immediately go to finding your most difficult edge? Well, there's another edge. It's finding the spot where you can soften and do a little bit less. Can you find that edge to do less or to rest?So it was fun to have some mornings where I would take a 6:00 AM class and I wouldn't have eaten or taken care of myself. And so I'd say, “You know what? I'm gonna do child's pose instead of doing that downward dog whole flow sequence.” And so, I would get really proud of myself in those moments. I'd be like, “Oh, this is so nice to let myself breathe and be on my mat and just give this rest to my body. Okay, now I feel good. Let's go to the next bit.”Megan Gill: Oh my god, that makes me emotional because I think something that we as humans just tend to do is like push, push, push ourselves to the limit all of the time that the thought of reeling it back and allowing yourself to really feel into what your body needs that day – this is also a practice, a journey that I am exploring myself as well, so I can very much relate. And it is the coolest thing. And it's just like you're bowing down to your body and you're honoring your body in this way that for me was radical. I had never really done that before. It was always like, “If I'm in the workout class, I'm going balls to the wall.” Yeah, so to like be in that yoga class, or even if you're at Training Mate or you're at the gym or you're running a 10K, whatever it is, really tuning in and being like, “Okay, I need to maybe chill, or I need to just like lay in savasana and call it a day.”Chloé Godard: Yeah, we're not in the Olympics, so why do we treat that one-hour yoga class like it's the last thing that we are doing?Megan Gill: Oh, my god, so true because I think we've just been conditioned to show up in these spaces from a place of shaming ourselves, from a place of, “I'm here to burn calories or like I'm here to get a good workout in,” that challenging that way of thinking is so important. It can lead to longevity too, right?Chloé Godard: Yeah! I was laughing when you said that because when you brought up the 10K I was like, “Oh yeah, I also forgot that I ran my first 10K this year!” Chloé doing the most and talking about doing less.Yeah, that feeds into a little bit of the fit modeling, which for me, you got me into. So thank you for that. And I bring that into the like light of less because I'm in the body that I'm in, and for fit modeling, which if some people don't know, it’s not fitness modeling. It's kind of like you're essentially, I tell people, the lifesize mannequin trying on the clothes, the moving body. And for that, it's kind of like what your measurements are. A little bit your weight and whatnot, but my shoulder span is my shoulder span, my height is my height. Yes, I can wear heels, but to a certain degree, my bone structure is different than your bone structure. I am petite.And so, when I first tried to join my first fit modeling agency, I was declined because I was petite. And then, funny enough, I ended up signing with them because they needed a model for a shoe company, and I have, which I learned, the perfect prototype size six shoe, which is not something that I can change. I can't make my foot smaller! I can't realistically make my foot bigger. So I was just like, “Thank you, body.” There's literally nothing I can do. This is just me. That’s cool!Megan Gill: Right, it's almost like I would not be a hand model. I'm just not gonna be a hand model and I can't change that. I can't control that! So, so true.Chloé Godard: Yeah, so it's just finding your little weird niche things.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And then I also just think it's so beautiful to note that they, at first, declined you, and then I love that a client came around that was like, “We need this size shoe,” and I love that it was you. Yes, because to an extent, there's gonna be something about you that is needed for whatever it is. Obviously, we are in a very unique industry where our bodies, not only as actors, but in the sense of hand modeling, which is what you do a lot of and fit modeling, which is what we both do a lot of, our bodies are our tool.Chloé Godard: How amazing and crazy. It's so crazy. If you would've told me when I was younger that I would be doing all of these things, I don't know, my jaw probably would've just dropped to the floor, all of these crazy cool jobs that have everything to do with my body. Whoa.Megan Gill: Yes, because not only are you an actor, a hand model, a fit model, but you also have recently gotten into voiceover work and recording audiobooks. So your voice is just another part of your body that you cannot change.Chloé Godard: Yeah, my non-physical part. Yeah, but I mean it uses my lungs, my mouth, my throat. It's something that is very, very fun, but it is also taxing, like working out and other things. I can't just work 24 hours to finish the deadline on a book because my voice gets hoarse. I get tired. You can hear it in your voice. It's kinda like when you call your friend on the phone and the way they answer, you know, and you can tell if they've been crying or if they're upset or they're angry. It's like an embodiment of you without your body, which is so fun. The introvert in me just really loves it.Megan Gill: Wait, I love that. It's so true because people can tell so much about a person by their voice. Yeah.Chloé Godard: Think of singers, which is something I could never do, don't ever wanna be. I do not sing, but voiceover, like narrating audiobooks, is so fun to me because I like the storytelling aspect of it. It's the actress in me wanting to come out some more. Just another creative thing to do.Megan Gill: Yeah, very cool.Chloé Godard: Yeah, and bring other people's stories to life.Megan Gill: Yeah, I love it. Through using just another part of your body.Chloé Godard: Does anybody want my whole body out there? Anyone? Anyone?Megan Gill: Yes! Hallmark, we're looking at you.Chloé Godard: Yeah. Put me in a movie somewhere.Megan Gill: Lifetime?Chloé Godard: Please.Megan Gill: I am interested as someone who hand models for these big brands – it's really cool that you work with Mattel and that you work with all of these incredible clients as a hand model. And like you said, if you told your younger self that you were doing this, you wouldn't believe it and you would probably think it's so freaking cool.I'm curious to hear, as an actor, as someone who's pursuing this art form where we show up as our whole selves, our whole bodies, and we want to be on television and in movies and onstage or in commercials or whatever it is – I know you've done a lot of national commercials yourself – but what is the difference for you using your hands? I guess this does tie back to body in the sense of your hands are the star. But at the same time I'm hearing you talk about how much you take care of your hands and how much you appreciate your hands and love them. I'm just curious to kind of explore this whole, “I want to be acting with my whole body on film, but the work that I'm getting right now and the work that I'm really good at and I know what I'm doing and clients want me for, is just my hands.” What's going on with that for you?Chloé Godard: I think with the hand modeling, my perfectionism comes out a lot. We often use a probe lens so it gets really up close and personal, especially if the toys are small, because I've done Polly Pocket, and it's, in the past, been very stressful and nerve wracking for me because, I mean, like you said, my hands are the star.So sometimes if I'm in there and then – everyone I work with on set is amazing, but sometimes the camera guy will be like, “Oh, there's something under your nail. There's a little black speck, “ or you know, I might have a hangnail that I didn't catch, and it immediately can just send me into, “Oh my god, somebody else is gonna get this job. My hands aren't perfect,” constantly just looking at them, making sure I don't get a paper cut. It sounds so silly, but, to me, that's so deadly. But you also use your hands in your everyday life. So it's like I have to live my life. I'm not, unfortunately, making millions of dollars hand modeling, so I still wanna do things, but in the past it has definitely sent me in a negative head space because I want to do such a good job.And the hand model I was working with on set today, we were talking about kind of how slow work has been due to the climate of everything. And I made a comment like, “Well, my hands are gonna eventually age. I'm probably not gonna be hand modeling for Barbie ten years from now.” I mean, I don't know, so many things could happen between now and then. Maybe the universe will play a joke on me and I will be, but our whole body's age. It's not just your face. So I do think about that a lot. Like, “Oh, like what will my hands look like when they're older?” I look at my mom's hands, and then I think I wanna have kids one day. Can I still hand model when I'm pregnant? Will my hands get chubby? Or will my hands still look the same when I'm pregnant? I guess you can use this kind of like, this is my spiral instead of honing in on what I'm eating and shaming myself for that. Sometimes I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I should have been more careful with my hands. This happened, or I could have done this and this better with the shot. Did my hand look childlike enough?”Megan Gill: Mm, yeah. Oh, that's so interesting too – talk about …Chloé Godard: Because I’m doing kids toys. So I've hand modeled jewelry and done nail polish. I did a lot of products and different things, but toys has been my bread and butter, so that's also been a thing too with clients, making sure that my hands are small enough. But I've also had to use that reframe and say, “Chloé, you're fun to work with on set. The people like you. You do a good job.” Kind of the same things that I would probably talk myself through being on set. And I have been. It's not just that I'm the world's best hand model. I like to think it's still all of me.Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely.Chloé Godard: I don't even know if that answered your question.Megan Gill: No, that was even better than where I was trying where I was trying to go.Chloé Godard: Just the spiral!Megan Gill: Well, it’s so interesting to talk about this stuff because we all have our thing, right? We each have our thing or things that we spiral about or that we have a hard time with. I know you were cracking this massive egg a couple days ago, and all I could think while you were cracking it was, “Oh my god, her hands.”Chloé Godard: Okay guys, I was making breakfast with Megan, and I got a goose egg from the farmer's market. That thing is, when I clenched my fist, it was the size of my fist and I was just gonna break it like a normal egg, as she was saying. No, these goose eggs, they have a strong exterior, and if I wasn't a hand model and I didn't care, I probably would've just jammed my thumbs in and pulled it apart. But Megan's laughing because, as I was doing it, I was like, “Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. What do I do? My hands!” Yeah, it's literally everyday things like that that are comical. But I'm like, “Oop!” Or when I wash dishes, I use gloves all the time. I don't use hand sanitizer because it's incredibly drying. It's not rocket science.Megan Gill: It's also smart because, like you said, this is your way of taking care of yourself and it seems like this is your way of mitigating that spiral for you. Whereas, for me, mitigating the spiral is wearing clothes that are really comfortable to me and like wearing clothes that I like and that I feel good in, so that I'm not suffocating in my pants and feel like I can't breathe and then I'm gonna spiral because I don't feel good in my clothes, you know?Chloé Godard: We all have our things.Megan Gill: And it's so fascinating to talk about it. Like I always say, everyone has a body image story, and it doesn't even have to necessarily relate to diet culture, per se. It’s so fascinating to hear what each person's thing is, or even just with aging and with fashion and all of that stuff.Chloé Godard: Even talking to you about it now, I'm just now realizing (it's so funny) how being petite has been such a thing in my life. We were even joking about this the other night. I was like, “Any guy is taller than me.” You know, dating for me is easy because every man is taller. I always say in my selftapes, “I'm perfectly pint-sized at five-foot-two. I'm short. When I was a dancer, I'd always be in the front because I was shorter. Being petite for fit modeling. I'm not going to hand model an iPhone because those are huge and my hands are small, so I'm doing toy commercials. Even for yoga stuff, my body just moves different in space because it's smaller. I'm definitely more torso than legs. When I danced, my tutus were always slightly uncomfortable because I was just like, I am more torso space and less leg space.Megan Gill: Which is so interesting because I'm more leg, less torso. And then I also had someone recently in one of my yoga classes – this woman was practicing next to me, and at the end of the class, she was like, “Wow, like you're so flexible. I could never do that. I could never be as flexible as you.” And I had to stop her and almost reframe it for her and be like, “Okay, thank you. A) I've been dancing my whole life, which is why I maybe am as flexible as I am. Just as a precursor. Heads up. This didn't just happen overnight, and B) each of our bodies has their own thing. Each of our bodies, like you said, move in space in their own unique way, and they can rotate in different ways, and we can each do our own thing, and it's so fascinating because I think we do play this game of like, grass is greener, or you see someone else doing something and it's like, “Whoa, that's so awesome. I can't do that.” And you want that, you want to do that, but really your body can do this other cool thing over here.Chloé Godard: Exactly. Or it's nice to be able to aspire to do different things. Sometimes I get inspired by people in the yoga class and I'm like, “Oh, I've never seen this variation. I wanna try that!” Or I know my body, and I'm looking at someone doing a pose and I say, “My body doesn't work that way, but that is so beautiful that you can do that. I'll do something else.”I've been so overthinking teaching yoga now, since now I'm not only the student, but also the teacher. And I have been thinking about, too, inclusivity for all bodies, and I know there's gonna be so many things that I'll miss, but I've even been thinking about how not everyone has ten fingers and ten toes. So instead of cueing people, and for this example saying, “Stretch your ten fingers out on the mat,” I don't know, I just say, “Stretch your fingers out on the mat.” Some people have trauma with their body, and using trauma-inclusive language, I find that fascinating and I wanna even learn more about that. You could just go on and on how different people's minds are and their bodies and the things that go on with that, but I think we do have to give you ourselves grace and other people grace at the end of the day.Megan Gill: I was thinking that as you mentioned there's so much to learn, because I think that like we never reach this point of we are perfect. We are leading a yoga space perfectly, or we're showing up in front of the mirror with our own bodies perfectly. Like, no, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately or fortunately. Maybe I shouldn't say unfortunately. It's kind of lovely and beautiful that it's an ever-evolving process of just giving ourselves grace and learning and evolving and trying to do better, trying to be kinder to ourselves, trying to lead a room better, trying to show up in whatever space you're in just being a kind person, trying to learn, trying to be better.Chloé Godard: It's never gonna be perfect, which is what I'm learning. Like in my acting, I can try to reenact the same scene the same way over and over, and you know, you can't do that. Just like I said, your yoga practice will never be the same between day to day. Just like I was even learning in my running training days that you run less mileage or slower is still helpful to the end goal because it's helping you build the stamina, and then there's progression. It's not just every day you run one more mile. That would also be crazy, I think, but I'm not a running pro.But anyways, yeah, it's just learning. And I think just the reframe that we keep saying like, okay, that maybe didn't feel like my best, but I did it, I showed up. I think that's the most important thing, and I still am learning that as the perfectionist. I can't just call into set and say, “I don't feel like hand modeling today. My hand is tired.” I go and I pull through. I'm not saying if you're not feeling your best to still push through the crazy workout, but what is your edge of less challenge? There are two sides to the coin.Megan Gill: I'm obsessed with that. It's that we can still show up not at 100% and not at our peak best performance and still have impact and still do good things and do good work.Chloé Godard: You can still learn from that.Megan Gill: Yeah. I think that's such an important lesson, honestly. I'm so glad that you brought this up today and highlighted that.Chloé Godard: Thank you little, petite brain of mine. I wonder if my brain is taller than other people's brains?Megan Gill: I know that my head. Is bigger because like only the 47 hats at my head. Any women's hats don't fit my head. Oh, I also have a lot of hair, but I don't know that my brain’s bigger. That’s so silly.Chloé Godard: Y'all, Megan and I send each other voice memos like it is our day jobs. And since talking about wanting to be on your podcast, we've had so many chats, like, “Don't forget to talk about this. Don't forget to talk about this.” But I feel like it's gonna have to be in a part two!Megan Gill: Agreed.Chloé Godard: Stay tuned!Megan Gill: We're gonna have to bring her backChloé Godard: Please!Megan Gill: Well, thank you, Chloé! I'm really glad that we had this conversation, and I am just grateful for you.Chloé Godard: Thank you, Megan and Mary Jane!“  Working out first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and really tired, I can't do things that I normally can do. But if I get a good night's sleep, if I have a little something to eat, if I have my water the morning of or night before, then I notice I can hold crow pose longer, or I can lift a little bit heavier weight. So it's just trying to set myself up and talking to myself most of the time in a kind way to help me. Because I want to be my own best friend, not my worst enemy.”- Chloé GodardChloé Godard is more than the industry standard triple threat. She is an actress, hand model, fit model, audiobook narrator, yoga teacher, runner and a soon-to-be (self proclaimed) tennis star. She's a dreamer.Chloé has acted in more than 10 National commercials, award-winning indie films, music videos, and isn't showing signs of stopping. (Bond girl is next on her list.) Most days, you can find Chloé grabbing a cappuccino from a local coffee shop, booking her next flight, and enjoying life with the people she loves.Follow Chloé on InstagramTake Chloé’s yoga class at Shakti Power Yoga in NashvilleSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my new friend, Health and PE educator, as well as the founder of Pretty Little Lifters, Tiffany Ragozzino to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tiffany and I were connected by a mutual friend who I recently shared a conversation with (hi Maddie McGuire!) because of our shared passion for dismantling diet culture and leaning into strength and wellness.Tiffany is battling a social media driven world in her classroom to remind her TikTok-loving students the importance of having physical strength and general wellness, and she leads by example. Her stories of conversations she’s had with students and the ways in which she’s working to even educate their parents when she has the opportunity gives me hope for our future generations when it comes to helping them to foster a healthy self-image.I walked way from our conversation feeling empowered as heck, and I hope you feel the same! Please check out The Pretty Little Lifters podcast and follow Tiffany to stay updated with the incredible work she’s doing!“ We do a lot of weightlifting, we also do Pilates too. We're well-rounded; we're balanced. But sometimes I'll hear them say, “Oh, I just want to do Pilates.” And when I hear it and I'm like, “That's great for muscular endurance, but what are we gonna do for muscular strength? This is what we're doing for muscular strength.” I'm constantly course-correcting. I'm trying to teach them, “This is long-term health and fitness. That's what I want for you. So I'm not gonna do any quick fixes because that doesn't go with what I'm teaching you.” So it's almost a little bit more of an accountability, I guess you could say. It helps me really practice what I preach. The information that I'm sharing with them, I really do want it to be aligned because I do feel like they will find me more authentic when they see me also living my truth and doing the things I teach them.”- Tiffany RagozzinoMegan Gill: Would you want to start by diving into a little bit of your own body image story, your body image journey, and kind of what led you to your work today?Tiffany Ragozzino: So it's so funny you asked this question because I was recently talking to a friend about body image, especially since I work with teenagers and I teach PE and health, and we were sharing our stories. It's interesting navigating – I'm a millennial, so I grew up during those primitive Y2K moments. When I was a teenager, just getting all of those stories of being skinny and how nothing tastes as good as skinny feels. That was a wild time to grow up when the celebrities gracing the covers of magazines were extremely thin. A lot of them had eating disorders, and that's what we were used to. That was the expectation.I've always been on the thinner side, so I kind of fit into that socially-acceptable body. And it was really interesting because when I started wanting to do weightlifting, a lot of people were like, “Oh my gosh, don't get too big. Don't get too manly. Don't get too big,” and I was like – and I was just excited to do really cool stuff. I was just like, “Wait a minute, I want to do really cool things with my body!”Megan Gill: Yeah, “I want to lift some heavy shit out here! I want to be strong!” Yeah.Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly. So it was very interesting, and you know what's funny? I think when I started doing a lot of things with street training, it was the first time that sometimes like being on the thinner side or lean didn't always work to my advantage because I remember there was this one photo shoot I wanted to do and participate in, and the person whose gym it was was like – and he didn't say it directly to me, but I kind of heard through the grapevine where it's like, “Oh, she's a little too thin. We want somebody muscular,” and I was like, “Okay, is this where we're shifting to?” But I kind of wasn't mad at it, you know what I mean? I was like, “That's cool. This guy wants to show strong women. He wants to show a different body type and not maybe more of my typical body type that you see already.” So it was actually a really cool experience to be on the other side of that.Megan Gill: Yeah, it kind of shook up your world a little bit? In a world where we always have known where the ideal is, “How small can we be?Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly.Megan Gill: For then someone to come in and be like, “No, actually, maybe we want someone a little bit thicker or with a little bit more muscle,” or whatever it may be. Yeah, I could see how that's such a wild concept.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, exactly.Megan Gill: But also it’s so important to reflect all types of bodies, right? Not that your body isn't needed, but just having a diverse range of different body types.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, exactly. And this was, you know, in the earlier 2000s still. So it was kind of cool to hear something like that because you didn't get to see that very much.Megan Gill: Right. Totally. I'm also a millennial, so I feel you.Tiffany Ragozzino: So you get it.Megan Gill: I get it, right there with you.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. So it was definitely an interesting transition. And what's funny too is when I did start strength training, that shift that I had even in the beginning, because at first it was really like aesthetic, you know? It was just like, “Okay, I want a six pack. I want to see my muscles. I want to be so lean” And then there was a shift when I really started getting into Olympic lifting, gymnastics training, more like CrossFit stuff, I was like, “Wait, I need to be really fed. I need to be fueled. I need to be strong to be able to keep up with all these really cool athletes and figure out how my body can move in a different way.” And it's interesting because that even came with its own – body image is so weird. It's so weird because you go from one extreme to the other.So then there I was in this new arena of like, “I want to be strong like them. I want those muscles. I want this,” and then it was just like a whole different fixation of being strong and having that six pack and not being so just thin and skinny. I just feel like that pendulum has just kind of swung back and forth, and it was really healthy to step away from aesthetics a little bit and really focus on what I can do. But it is kind of interesting to just always see that pendulum swinging a little bit.Megan Gill: Like societally, you mean, or for yourself?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. Yeah, I think societally because, unfortunately, as we've seen throughout history, women's bodies are trends, unfortunately, you know? And so, I don’t know if you remember when booties were in, and then everyone was like, “Okay, we're gonna squat, we're gonna hip thrust, we're gonna do this.” And you can see the reflection in fitness, in types of movements people are doing, in the way we dress. So it's really interesting to kind of try to separate yourself from that. But as a society, it's really hard to, you know?Megan Gill: Right. Of course, of course. Especially in this time where everybody keeps using this phrase, and I'm like, okay, I get it. It's like, “Thin is in.” Like, “Thin is back.” The early two thousands are back, and it is very true because in the way celebrities now, these people that have access and have money, have access to like these other tools to alter their bodies, or just easier access, I would say. It is quite clear, I keep seeing – and I try not to judge also, but I can see that people are not wrong. Thin is very much around us right now, and a lot of people want that. That's the ideal again which does suck because strong is so important.I'm curious also because, as someone who – I mean, I grew up dancing. I've been pretty active my whole life. I’m deep into a hot yoga practice myself right now.Tiffany Ragozzino: Ooh, I love hot yogaMegan Gill: Oh, it's been so, so good for me. Mentally, I feel like I've never been stronger. I actually have triceps, and I've never really been able to feel a tricep in there before, so it's really cool. Like, “Wow.” I feel really, really strong and really mentally well, and I have a really great relationship with my movement practice. It's taken me a long time to get here.When “thin is in,” – I'm just using that phrase as like a general way that we're trending right now, societally, as far as body goes, in my eyes, I think it takes the focus off of strength of general wellness and off of building that muscle so that we can age and be able to walk and move and have that strength and flexibility and mobility still. That's really important. For me, it's really important. I look at my parents, and I want them to be strong as they age. I understand how vital that is. So I'm just curious to hear your take on that.Tiffany Ragozzino: It's crazy. I don't know if you're on TikTok, but like the rise on SkinnyTok has been interesting, to say the least. And it's weird. So I started teaching at the school. I work at an all-girls school, which is amazing. It's the ideal population that I want to work with. So getting to talk about these topics with my girls, with my high school students is so important. But I started working there in 2018. It is now 2025. And like I said, that shift that I've seen in these seven years, I saw it.When I started, it was very like girl power, we're gonna be strong, diversity representation, body diversity. All of that was really present, and I was bringing a lot of that into my curriculum, and I still continue to do that, but at the same time, the world around us was also really promoting that, right? It was everywhere. Brands were getting on board. And yes, was some of it performative? Now we know, yes. But it wasn't just me. Collectively, a lot of people in the health and fitness industry were on board, but now we're in 2025, and I am seeing the decline.So I feel like, as a health teacher and PE teacher, I've had to work a little bit of overtime because now that it's swinging back the other way to this whole, you know, SkinnyTok situation, I have students – I now hear different things that I didn't quite hear as much during the building phase of my program with my students. And now I'm hearing things about, like, “Snatched waist, calories this,” just very much more like diet culture stuff where I worked so hard to deconstruct that for them and teach them. But because society is now latching onto this other piece, it's like, “Wait a minute, y'all are making my job harder! What's going on?” And also making sure I'm aware of the content that's being put out there, like I mentioned, things on SkinnyTok. It is a hard place, and I know teenagers are on there. They're seeing this. They're navigating this. The rise of like Pilates being more popular, for example.We do a lot of weightlifting. We also do Pilates too. We do everything, right? We're well-rounded. We're balanced. But sometimes I will hear little things and I'll hear them say like, “Oh, I just want to do Pilates.” And when I hear it I'm like, “That's great for muscular endurance, but what are we gonna do for muscular strength? This is what we're doing for muscular strength.” So I'm constantly course correcting and really trying to teach them because they're hearing certain things that they hear on social media. You are seeing that shift to the softer things, people want to get thinner. It has been a very interesting thing to navigate, and this is when it comes back to education, and those of us that have the education, we understand the science and the basics and stuff that need to happen so that we can avoid these up and down trends, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah, and try to cultivate a safe space for your students, the students that you're impacting, which I'm grateful that they have you. Thank god they have you, oh, my gosh and not someone who is feeding into all of the BS going on in the world right now. But yeah, really being able to cultivate that safe space and be a trusted educator that can help show them, “No, we don't have to do it that way,” because I think, right now, it’s very reflective of the age in which I grew up in, which we grew up in being millennials, generally speaking, where we are getting so many signals from the outside world and from media – and obviously now social media is just such a huge thing. It's a lot more than MTV and Seventeen mag.But how important and beautiful and necessary to have that space where you can hopefully make a bigger impact on these young girls, young women and break them out of what I think I very much got stuck in myself as a young high schooler, early-college student. I didn't have someone like that. I'm so glad that you are doing this and that you are truly educating. How many girls do you teach?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, so I have a lot of students. So every year I have about, it depends, anywhere from 100+. This year I had, like, 90 health students, and I had about, like, 100 PE students, 100 health students. So yeah, it's a lot.Megan Gill: That's incredible, yeah.Tiffany Ragozzino: But it's great because I can reach more people and that's kind of why I wanted to move to high school because I knew I would be able to reach more people.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And at such a pivotal age okay, they've learned so much, and now it's like make or break kind of, at least from like my experience. I was really, really impressionable at that time. That's amazing, and you are in Los Angeles, is that corect?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes, I am here in Los Angeles, specifically West Hollywood, and I work closer to the downtown area. So it's great because we have such a diverse community - you know, different ethnicities, different socioeconomic statuses. So it's really great to be able to, you know, cover a lot of bases.It's interesting though, because the parents of these students, like the age range would be probably like Gen X, I want to say, is probably the age range. And so, they also kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff too. And a lot of them didn't have anybody to learn it from too. So I even find that sometimes educating the parents is also half the battle, right, and teaching them, because if nobody ever taught them, if they didn't get into social media and start learning from other people kind of doing this kind of work, they are not really gonna know this too.So the parents are very supportive, they're very excited about the program and the content that I teach. But it is sometimes interesting. You will hear little old-school ways of thinking sometimes when it comes to this kind of stuff and diet culture because they just didn't learn it. We didn't learn this in school, you know? We were fed very different things.Megan Gill: Yeah, oh, it's so true. But also, how wonderful is that, that not only are you impacting these young women but then also their moms? Oh, my gosh. It makes me emotional.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it's really nice. And just even getting to teach my mom some things that I learn. That's definitely a different generation that she's in. So yeah, it's really important. And that's one of my hopes is that more educators really modernize their programs to include, you know, topics like this.And also one thing that I think people forget in the health and fitness space is that everyone has their target audience, and that's valid, right? But social media is very accessible to everyone, and teens are on there, and they're watching. So anytime I see misinformation or just fearmongering or anything like that, I'm like, “Can we not?” Because there's just so many impressionable and uneducated people, and I don't want to say uneducated in a bad way. It's just like we did not learn this stuff. So it's not an intelligence thing. It's just a lack of knowledge.Megan Gill: Right, a lack of like accessibility this way of approaching health and fitness, which was very much not a widespread thing, not a thing that was really spoken about too much when we were younger. Oh, my gosh.Does working with these young women help you connect to your own body and body image story?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, Yes.Megan Gill: I’m curious to hear more about the tie between all of that, yeah.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it's so funny that you asked this because I really think working with this population of teen girls has, one, made me a better teacher and coach, but as you mentioned, also help me kind of put my ego aside and kind of check myself and some of my internal biases and things that I think and really unpack, like, “Where is that thought coming from?” When you start working with teens, especially because you've been there before and it's almost like I'm thinking about my teenage self, and I just want to give her a hug, you know? And I think about what I was thinking, what was I insecure about, where was my brain, what were the challenges? So I understand what these kids – I can put myself in their shoes. And then sometimes when I get too wrapped up in adult world and I'm like not thinking about it, sometimes hearing them say something, sometimes I want to course correct and be like, “No, don't think that!” you know, or like, “This is wrong!” But I'm like, “Wait a minute, I get it. I understand what you're trying to say. I understand why you feel this pressure.”And so, sometimes it's like everyone's gonna find their own way. But it's definitely helped me connect to also, you know, putting less pressure on myself, on aesthetics, you know, and being someone who is in the health and fitness industry, obviously, that is kind of a piece of it sometimes. Anybody would be lying if they said it wasn't. I've done fitness modeling, I've done different things, and, yes, aesthetics is always a piece of it. But it does help me really focus on the long run. And I'm trying to teach them, “This is long-term health and fitness. That's what I want for you. So I'm not gonna do any quick-fixes because that doesn't go with what I'm teaching you.”So it's almost like a little bit more of like an accountability, I guess you could say, and helps me really practice what I preach and the information that I'm sharing with them and making sure – I really do want it to be aligned because I do feel like they will find me more authentic when they see me also living my truth and like living – I do the things I teach them, and I think that makes a big difference, and they see that. Kids are smart. They can see through it. They know when somebody's teaching something and they don't even care about it. So I think my students know I'm passionate about it, and like I do the things I teach them. This is not just me reading something to them. It's like no, they know she does the thingsMegan Gill: Yeah, and that you're like a walking, breathing, living example of a leader that is showing them what it can look like down the road for them, whih I think is also super important. You, I can imagine, are just probably such a role model, whether you know that or not, for so many of these young women. I’m like, “Yeah!”Tiffany Ragozzino: It's a cool job!Megan Gill: Also to practicing what you preach, I find even for myself now that I'm having more public conversations and just being more vocal on my social media and even in my friend groups and with the people around me, the practice what you preach thing, I've found myself like having moments of, “Whoa, okay.” Or I'll laugh at something or someone says something, and it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it with all of this like diet culture, beauty culture, body image stuff. And it's just such an interesting self-exploration to go down that journey of like, “Okay, how am I really gonna live truly as an example of what I want to see in the world and how I want to see other women and other people caring for their bodies and caring for themselves, mentally and physically.”Tiffany Ragozzino: Totally.Megan Gill: It’s funny because some of my friends will be like, “Ope!” They'll say something, they'll make a comment usually about their own bodies, and then they'll look at me like, “Body image police!” And I'm like, “Yeah! Good!”Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes! I'm gonna hold you accountable! I'm gonna hold you accountable, yes!Megan Gill: Yeah, and hold myself accountable in turn like you were saying too, yeah.Tiffany Ragozzino: Mm-hmm. And just like you said, I would do that if I heard my students say something negative about themselves or their body. I would probably clap back and be like, “Excuse me! No, no!” and give them something positive or hype them up a different way that has nothing to do with how they look. I'm still human, and sometimes I will catch myself or my husband will hear me say something negative about myself and I'm like, “Stop, Tiffany!” Like. “No, no! You wouldn't let your kids do this, you wouldn't let your students do this, so no, we're not gonna do that. Slow your roll,” you know, things like that.It's made me more aware of that and just made me very conscious of the things I say, the way I show up on social media, the things I post. It's made me very mindful because there's just so much content out there that I want to make sure that this is a safe, accurate, educational, entertaining space but showing up in a way that feels really good.And here's the thing too, these kids are smart. A lot of them are on social media, and they find my account. My account is public. And so, that's kind of how I see it. I was like, I want to make sure if they see something, that's me, and I’d feel proud, and I would stand by that statement or post or whatever I was wearing, I would feel good about that. So I definitely think that's like an important piece to me to be able to show up authentically and be proud of them seeing it. Also, because I know some of them watch, I'll post educational things where I'm like, “I want them to know this.”Megan Gill: Yeah, you’re like, Lowkey, you all need this.”Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah! Like, “Okay, can we learn this? You should know this. We talked about it in class.”Megan Gill: Yeah. Also, you're doing, in a sense, the counter-work to all of the other accounts out there and the people posting misinformation. To me, I’m like, ugh, it's such a heavy weight to carry. But also, you're not doing it alone. There are other accounts out there. There are the good ones out there. I know. I follow so many of them.I find myself thinking like, “Why me? Why am I qualified to talk about this? Why am I qualified to have these body image conversations?” And it's like, whoa, whoa, okay, okay. Just because so many other people are doing it is actually amazing. It’s actually incredible because the more people that are talking about this and debunking this stuff and fighting back at diet culture and breaking down industry and all of these beauty standards and all of this stuff, the better, the more the conversation continues at a broader level.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. Definitely. And it's funny because obviously I know that you're a dancer, so you probably can identify with this. But I remember I had a student years ago, I think it was like my first year there. So they've, you know, probably graduated. Yeah, they've graduated by now. And they were a dancer, and I had them for PE. And she was a beautiful dancer. She was a ballerina. And she came up to me, and she was just like, “Miss, how can I make my calves smaller?” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And she was this beautiful dancer with dancer calves, and she's like, “My dad said my calves are too big.” And I was like – literally my heart sank into my stomach, and I was just like. Okay, Tiffany, what are you gonna say? How are you gonna respond? Because internally I wanted to go educate the dad, you know, and be like, “Hey, can I teach you something?”Megan Gill: Yeah, “Can I teach you five things?”Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, and I was just like, “Hey, you know, you are a ballerina. You do a lot of movements that are going to require you to be up on your toes, and you are flexing your calves. You need those calves! Those calves allow you to be that dancer that you are on stage! So we don't want to make them smaller. They are fine the way they are, and you need them, so you should be so gratefu, and let's appreciate those calves!” And she smiled and stuff, but it's things like that.And I know you're a dancer, and it goes back to that education and having these conversations with adults too. So I know sometimes parents follow me too, and I'm like, “Please do!” Listen to what I'm saying. Let me teach you something!”Megan Gill: Yeah. Heck yeah. That's also really cool. Is it like a, “Ah!” moment when a parent follows you? Not in a weird way, just in like a, “This is amazing.”Tiffany Ragozzino: Honestly , it's so funny because especially with profile names and pictures, you can't really tell who's who. So I don't really know unless they tell me. So sometimes I'll be at open house, and a parent will be like, “Oh, I follow your page. I think it's so great!” And that makes me so happy, because I used to teach elementary school before I became PE and health, and I still had – you know, I was running The Pretty Little Lifters and everything, but I felt like I had to keep my worlds very separate, so I would never talk about my fitness content in education. And then finally when I switched to PE and health, I was like, “I think I can talk about it, and I can talk about how I'm a PE teacher and this and that,” and it all kind of connected in a really good way.Megan Gill: Oh, that's amazing. That feels like true alignment. I think what I'm out here cultivating for myself too is like, yeah, it all can go, it all can fit together. It all belongs together So that's really cool to hear. I love that. Yeah, oh, gosh. The dancer calves.Tiffany Ragozzino: I know, you probably have so many stories.Megan Gill: That just hits deep because my brain is thinking, well, everybody has different calves, right? All of our calves are different sizes, just like all of our hands are different sizes. I think that that's a rabbit hole I've been going down lately just remembering that we are all so different, and it's so unfair to sit here, myself, and look at the person next to me and judge myself based off of that.And then also just like bringing it back to strength too, which I feel like is your bread and butter, like, “You need those calves in order to execute the movements that you do.” I do think that is the important piece in all of it. When I'm in a bad body image day or in a spiral about something about my body, bringing it back to, “Whoa, this body carries me through life. Like you, I snap myself out of it. What is good about our body? What is good about this body part that I'm talking shit on right now?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes, exactly.Megan Gill: What does it functionally do for us in the world, you know?Tiffany Ragozzino: And I think that does help you, when you really go back to the function and what you can do, it really can snap you out of it and give you a little bit of gratitude.I think, recently, I saw a photo of myself from – I was somewhere with my family. Oh, I think we went to like Medevil Times or something, and they do like a group photo, and it was very cute. We did this cute little group photo, and when I got the picture, I remember seeing my arm, and it just looked really – I couldn't see my muscles. It just kind of looked like a blob there, and instantly I could feel that inside, I wanted to be like, “Ugh, my arm! There's no definition. I can't see my muscles.” And I was just like, “Tiffany, it's okay. You're human. And this is years of conditioning that you are trying to reprogram.” And I literally was like, kind of like you mentioned, I told myself, “You can do a lot of pushups with those arms, so you need to chill. You need to chill. Everything's fine. This isn't the end of the world. You're fine.”Megan Gill: Yeah, totally. And then the other piece of that too is the ways in which we carry our bodies can determine how they look in the mirror, on camera, in a picture, which is just the whole other concept that I think is a little bit like, “Oh yeah, well of course.” But I always have to remind myself of that. There are just so many factors, so many factors that go into this that it's so sad and so unfortunate that we are so susceptible to the way they make us feel.Tiffany Ragozzino: There's a lot of us having these conversations and doing this kind of work, and as you mentioned, we're also working on it. Nobody's immune to it. I feel like even when they say they are, there's always just this little piece that we just – we're human and there's society and pressures, especially on women. So it's like we're not immune to it, you know? And just like everyone else, me talking about it and having these conversations, it helps me remember too because it's so easy to slip back into those thoughts. It's super easy to slip back into those thoughts. They don't go away. You just get better at managing them and flipping that switch a little bit faster, you know?Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes. Mic drop. That's so true. I'm really grateful that I've found myself in this type of work and down this particular journey of body image because I think it's really, really helped me more than anything. I can only hope that like someone out there in the void is like lis tening and reading and, you know? I know someone’s out there with me. Maddie's out there with me. Hey Maddie!But you know, I'm like, wow, at the end of the day, ultimately, this journey has been so, so healing for me to just pull me out of this cycle that I was stuck in for so many years and for so long. And I'm really proud of sticking to that because I think it's also, for me, it was 2020 during the pandemic when I started to really, really look at why I felt the way I did about my body and my changing body and food and exercise and all of it. I really started to take a really objective view at what was going on and kind of break down some of the stuff and start to go on that journey in therapy and with myself and by creating art around it and by talking about it. It is so important, and I think it also is important for the people – of course, like you said, no one is fully, “I’m healed!” No one out there, even like you said, if they say they are, they're not. But it's so important for us who are still working day in, day out, to practice what we preach, to be leading in these spaces, and to be having conversations like this and to be speaking up about this stuff because it's like, yeah, this is work for the rest of our lives. And it really, really, really does get easier, and it does get more fun the more you talk about it and the more your friends start to side-eye you and they start to talk shit about their bodies.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes. No, it's so true. And the thing is – and I was talking about this with my students the other day. I was like, “Our bodies are meant to change. They're not supposed to look the same.” And we had this conversation about – I told them, “You know, you're in high school right now. This is your high school body. It's okay that it changes when you get to college. It's okay that it changes post-college. It's going to just keep changing. That's what happens to our bodies.” And I think sometimes we get stuck in these thoughts that we're going to be the same or be able to maintain something forever.I'm gonna turn 42 this summer, and it has been interesting. When I turned 40, there was just this weird switch that went off in my body where it's like, “Hey, we're gonna shake things up for you. We are gonna change a little bit. Your body composition is just gonna shift, and you didn't change your habits, but we're just gonna shake things up.” And I was like, “What is this? What is happening right now?” And that took, and is still taking, a lot of mental gymnastics to try to recognize that like, okay, I'm getting into a different phase of my life, of my age, of my journey, where it's like I'm not the same as I was when I was 30. I'm 40 now, and now my body wants to hold onto body fat more. That's new! That's different, right? And it takes a lot of work. So it's almost like the goalpost is almost moving.I've definitely realized like, oh yeah, if you're hung up on aesthetics, that makes things really, really hard as you age.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Instead of bringing it back to, like you said, long-term health, like the longevity of being able to have muscles throughout the rest of your life and to focus on flexibility and general strength and general health, which I also think is kind of a radical concept for millennials who in this, like, you're-gonna-clean-your-plate era and this like – my parents didn't go to the gym. They were physically active out in the yard and we were an active family, but they were not like going to Pilates.Tiffany Ragozzino: No. You know, it's so funny that you mentioned something about cleaning your plate because I have vivid memories of being a kid, and I could not leave the dinner table until I finished all of my food. And I remember thinking, “I'm full. I don't want to eat anymore. I'm good.” And I had this conversation also with my students and we talked about intuitive eating, and I mentioned exactly what you said and I was like, “Yeah, I remember being little and people being like, ‘You have to finish your food.’”And the other day I was eating dinner and I served myself a good portion, and I'm eating, and I got to a point where like I'm good. I don't want to finish. I don't need to finish. I don't want to feel extremely full. And I just stopped, and I had this flashback to, interesting, like my body is being intuitive right now and it's telling me, “Hey, you're good. You don't have to finish this. We feel really good right now.” I was content, I was satisfied, and I know if I would've finished it, I probably would've been like, “Ugh,” and just not feeling too great. So it was just really interesting to think allowing ourselves to really tap into our bodies and listen to ourselves and not follow these arbitrary rules that maybe we've always heard, you know?Megan Gill: Oh, yes, absolutely. And the rules that then taught us to disconnect from our bodies. I think that the journey I'm on right now is like coming back home to myself and connecting and really, really feeling into that because same. I was taught the same thing. And then my mom would tell stories like, “Well, when I was a kid, I would shove the peas in my mouth and then go to the bathroom and then get rid of them.”Tiffany Ragozzino: That is so funny.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh. So it's interesting also because I feel like we are really breaking the cycle, whereas our parents were kind of like, “Okay, well, we want to do it differently than our parents.” But they did very much uphold, I think, a lot of weird teaching us to not be connected to our realizing it.I was listening to a podcast episode this past week, and it was kind of about intuitive eating in a sense, and connecting to your body and listening to your body. She was talking about the way that she works through her intuitive eating now is when she is eating, she remembers that feeling when she felt too full and felt sick, when you overdo it and you're like, “Oh, I don't feel good.” And she kinda lives in that and is like, “Yeah, I don't want to feel that.” And I really connected with that because, for me, a good marker has always been Thanksgiving, right? Obviously. And for ever and ever in a day, I overdid it, overdid it, overdid it. And as of more recently, I have been more and more connected to my body and just also very intuitively eating, which has been very, very cool and lovely. And I think that's it. That's the piece. I don't want to feel sick, what it is. I don’t want to feel unwell, and that then makes me feel bad in my body. I don't really need that. We want to try to feel good in our body as much as possible.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. You know what's interesting about that? Because I've always been a very intuitive eater, very connected to my body. I feel like anytime I try to go against that, my body's like, “Don't you dare.” It gets mad at me. And I have a recent example.So I did this three-month – so we were talking about Pilates earlier, and I'd been seeing so much content on women leaving weightlifting to go be Pilates girls, and all of a sudden now they're slimmed down and so snatched because they stopped weightlifting and lost all this cortisol and all this stuff. And I was like, “Let me look into this.”So I decided to be a guinea pig, and I did a three-month Pilates experiment. I did a podcast episode on it. So if anybody wants to go hear that, it is on Season 6: Episode 11 on my Pretty Little Lifters podcast. I will send you the link. And yeah, it was very, very interesting. But after I finished this challenge and got my results and everything, it ended in December. So in January when we kicked off the new year, I was like, okay, I'm gonna get back into my strength training. I'm so excited to lift barbells, but I might want to – maybe I need to tighten up my diet a little bit, and I don't love counting calories or macros or anything, but I was like, you know, I've only tried it oncem and I think I lasted like a week or two, a week and a half maybe, and I was just over it. So I was like, no, I'm gonna really do it this time.So I dedicate,d for sure, it was one month and then I was gonna do like a little bit longer than a month. And I did it. I was proud of myself for doing it, right? But it was very interesting because I also was doing DEXA scans to see if my body composition changed because this was all part of like an experiment, and I did not lose body fat. And it was almost like my body was mad at me. It's like, “Why are you feeding us all this food? What are you doing? This is too much!” And just the process of counting or anything, and I was like, whoa, I put in so much effort every week measuring food, doing this, cooking all my meals, dah, dah, dah, all of it, and nothing beneficial body-composition-wise happened, and I eat fairly well anyways. And so, I was just like, man, was that a waste? I guess I learned something, right? So then I was just like, you know what? We're gonna scrap that. And we're just gonna go back to me eating the way I usually do and just cooking more at home and being more intuitive about it. And so, I did that for the last month or so, and then I totally dropped 2% body fat, and I was like, “Excuse me?”Megan Gill: I love this. I’m obsessed with this.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah! And so, I was like, whoa, our bodies are cool. Our bodies are so cool. And I know everyone's different, but for me personally, that is a stressful thing for me. So it's almost like add in a stressor, and my body's like, no, thank you. And then also it's just, like I said, I know my body, and for me, I was just eating a lot more food than my body was interested in. So it just didn't work for me.Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow, that's so cool and such an important thing to hear. Sitting here as someone who has ditched, for me it was MyFitnessPal. It was never really macros and stuff like that, but it was still like a not-so-great triggering relationship with counting calories, that is so validating to hear.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes! It was so validating.Megan Gill: Right? You’re like, “Okay, well, was that a waste?” But like at least now you know that you can truly just be present with your body and in your life and with your food and your movement, and that that is what's more beneficial than cracking down and doing things that society says will “help you lose body fat” or whatever it may be, whatever the goal is. That is pretty freaking cool. That is a word.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it was really cool. And the thing also is that, as somebody in the health and fitness industry, I understand what it takes to look a certain way, and sometimes I think when people are on social media and they see “body goals” or somebody that inspires them and they're like, “That physique,” and I'm like, “Do you know what they have to do for that? Like, but do you really know because they're not telling you exactly what they have to do. It's a lot of work, a lot of work.” And even on me as somebody who knows this stuff and is healthy and intuitive, if I wanted to change my body to how I used to look, you know, really lean or at a lower body fat percentage, it is a lot of work, and I just don't know if I'm interested in that, to be honest.I was like, I don’t know if I'm there. It was just easier for me when I was in my twenties and thirties, and now knowing what I would have to do to achieve that, especially when you were already pretty lean and to go even leaner, it's a lot of work. And I don't think people realize what some of these people have to sacrifice or what they have to do, and it can be, you know, we're talking about life-long things and I'm like, “I can't do that lifelong. No! That's not fun!”Megan Gill: Right, that’s not sustainable. Yeah, oh, for sure. And then also what comes into play also in this conversation, I think, is like genetics. If you see someone and you're like, “Body goals,” but my body is this, my calves ain't getting any smaller no matter what I do. I think that we need to bring that into the conversation as well, and that's something that I'm exploring for myself too.Like, oh my gosh, I had an ex of mine who – I've always had a little belly. She's just always there. Genetically, my whole family has it. It's just what's going on. Even when I had a very unhealthy relationship to food and exercise and had a very low body weight for my 5’7” stature, I still had it. She was still there. She was still with me.Tiffany Ragozzino: Wow. Okay.Megan Gill: And not to out my ex or anything, but he was like, “You know you could get rid of that if you wanted?” He said that to me one time, and that just really irritated me because I’m like, sir, pardon me! Pardon, A, but B, at the same time, the way that my belly is on my body has always been this way on my body, and I don't want to know what I would have to do to make it go away. And, like you said, at this point in my life, I am not interested in making it go away. She's here to stay. She's with me. I love her now. I've radically accepted the fact that this is the body that I live in, and like this is the belly that I have, and she's mine, and she’s great, and I think that's so, so, so hard also though to get to that place. And granted it's not every day. Of course, of course, of course. I'm always working to accept my physical body.Yeah, when you do look around at your friends or at social media or whatever it is, at the person, you're like, “Oh,” like if somebody has that body goals, I think we do just have to really remind ourselves like we are all so different.Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, we are. Totally, and I'm glad you brought this up because, duringthe pandemic, so this was like 2020, I developed SIBO, and I was having all these stomach issues. And so, I was working with a nutritionist and doctors, and one of the things that they were like, “Hey, you might want to try this special diet, and we’ve got to tame your symptoms a little bit.” And that word, right, a particular way of eating is very triggering for me. And I was instantly so angry because I was like, “I have to eat a certain way? What?” And it was the strictest thing I've ever done in my life, and I had to do it for three months. And I weigh the same as I did like right now when I started this. And within two weeks I lost ten pounds, which, on my frame, is a lot, and it was very noticeable.But the thing that was very triggering was when I did lose that weight, it was like my “best body” in terms of I had all this muscle underneath, so I just looked ripped. I looked very lean, and I was getting so many compliments on my body. So it started messing with my head, and I was like, “Great. Does anybody know this is very unsustainable? I can't keep doing this. This is not what my body's supposed to look like. It's looking like this because I'm eating a very, very – I'm doing an elimination diet and we're seeing what foods I can tolerate or not.” And yeah, that was wild. That really messed with my head because I started thinking, “Oh, this is when I look better. Everyone's telling me this is my hot body,” right? And guess what? It went away as soon as I was off the diet because I had to eat normal again and exist, and I needed to go eat at restaurants because I'm human. And yeah, that was a very eye-opening time because when you get to a place where you kind of used to look, and it's very like acceptable, it can really mess with your head, you know?Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes, for sure. Especially when the messaging around you is, “Oh my god, you look so good!” Compliment here, complement there. It's also like, whoa, why are we commenting on the way my body looks?Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it was weird. It was weird. And I think because I was also in a different headspace, it just felt very weird. But you were talking about like your stomach and you're like, “I've always had this,” and for my body type, you know, I've always had like a booty and you know, some legs. If I gain weight, that's where it goes, you know? So for me that was the first time my legs got thin, and I never really had that. So that was like, whoa, to get my legs to look like that, I have to eat like this? I was like, “No.”Megan Gill: Not worth it.Tiffany Ragozzino: I like thai food!Megan Gill: Yes! Oh, my gosh. Yes, totally. That's so true. I keep coming back to this piece: sustainability. How are we gonna sustainably move in the world at a weight that our body is supposed to exist at? I did see a post on Instagram in the past couple days that was like, “If you have to do bad things to your body to get it to look a certain way, maybe your body's not supposed to look that way.”Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly, and that's funny you mentioned that, because I was thinking of doing a post like that too, because it is such an important thing, and goes back to the macros. If you have to count macros for months on end and forever or count calories or this or that, that's not what you're meant to look like, that's not how we exist. What happens if the scale's gone? What are you gonna do? You know? What if MyFitnessPal goes away? What's gonna happen, you know? And it's like that's not, you know, intuitive. It's a very controlling thing, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I was pretty vegan during the pandemic, eating a pretty vegan diet. I've been pescatarian for about 1ten years, give or take now, and within the past six months or so, my body was craving salami and Greek yogurt.Tiffany Ragozzino: Oh, what a combo!Megan Gill: Could you imagine together? No!Tiffany Ragozzino: I love it. It's so funny!Megan Gill: But it was such a cool experience to be able to be so in tune and so connected with my body now to be able to hear that be able to say, “Okay, I think I need to follow that. I think I need to listen to that,” and I did, and I have, and I've implemented both of those things into my diet. Very random. Why salami? Couldn't tell you. No idea.Tiffany Ragozzino: I love salami.Megan Gill: For some reason, that’s what I'm wanting, and it feels good as long as I don’t overdo it. It's such an interesting experience to have that and to be like, okay, let's do a test and follow that and see what happens and see what's going on. For me, it's changed my life and changed the way that I exist and how present I am in my life and with my food and with my body that I do want that for more people. “Wait, it doesn’t have to be like that, guys! It doesn't have to be that complicated. It’s actually a little bit easier over here.”Tiffany Ragozzino: Totally. It is. It really is. And I think, for anybody listening, I think many people are disconnected from their bodies. With stress and technology and work and career and just the hustle of the world, right? But if you can make that a goal to get connected to your body a little bit every day, over the years you're gonna just feel different. You're gonna move differently in the world. You're gonna show up differently from yourself. You're gonna create different habits for yourself because you just can be connected, and I think that's the piece that's missing that connection. People can't connect to themselves.A friend of mine recently posted something in her Instagram reels, and she was talking about how she tried like the Oura Ring tracker or whatever, and she was like, “Yeah, it wasn't for me. I don't need another wearable tech. I'm pretty intuitive.” And I was like, that's why I don't have one. I was like, I am so intuitive with my body. If I'm tired, I probably know why. If I'm hungry, I know. I need to give myself that space to check in and understand, “Oh, I didn't sleep well last night. Guess who's crabby and not feeling strong at the gym this morning? Me!” I understand, you know? So it's giving yourself that time and grace to learn how to connect with your body. And it might take a while for some people, right? And it is a weird concept because it seems very out there like, “How do you connect?” you know? And it's just slowing down, being more mindful, starting to move your body. People underestimate how much learning to move in your body can get you connected to your body, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, for sure, for sure. I think that's such an important message for people to hear. I absolutely love that and couldn't agree more.This has been so, so, so great. But I have one more question for you before we wrap up. I'm curious to know what your favorite thing or things about your body is?Tiffany Ragozzino: Ooh, my favorite things about my body. I feel like this is very fitting since I'm like a strength girlie and love that. But one of my favorite things of my body is I love feeling strong and capable. This weekend I went to go play with my nieces, and I'm lifting weights all the time, so picking them up overhead, like a strict picking them up, and we were playing this elevator game, and I was literally slo-moing them up, and I was like, “How cool that their auntie can just be like, woo, with these girls!” And I was like, “That's freaking cool!”So honestly, I think that's my favorite thing about my body, that I can do things. In my classroom when I have to move a squat rack across to the other room, I can just do things. It’s empowering. I feel really confident. I feel really capable. So I think for me, my favorite thing is being able to do things that I need to do in my everyday life. I could be in Hawaii and go on a hike if I wanted to. I could go paddle boarding for a mile if I needed to. Just being able to show up and just exist in this body and do things without thinking, “Can I do this? Am I healthy enough or fit or strong enough?” I can just do the thing. It feels so cool.Megan Gill: Oh, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing!“ I think many people are disconnected from their bodies, with stress and technology and work and career and just the hustle of the world, right? But if you can make that a goal to get connected to your body a little bit every day, over the years you're gonna just feel different. You're gonna move differently in the world. You're gonna show up differently for yourself. You're gonna create different habits for yourself because you can be connected. And I think that's the piece that's missing: that connection.”- Tiffany RagozzinoTiffany Ragozzino is a Southern California-raised Latina millennial, the founder of The Pretty Little Lifters, and CA Credentialed P.E. and Health educator. She created the PLL platform to provide the knowledge and tools she wished she had received in school. Recognizing the profound impact early education has on shaping lifelong wellness, empowering girls and women to reclaim their space and redefine their relationship with exercise and nutrition became her focus. Teaching girls and women to lift weights, without the weight of societal pressures to conform to unrealistic beauty standards, in order to help them build lifelong strength and confidence.Learn more about Tiffany’s work on The Pretty Little Lifters siteListen to The Pretty Little Lifters Podcast (this link will take you to the episode we spoke about in our conversation!")Follow Tiffany on InstagramSubscribe to Tiffany’s YouTube ChannelSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow fit model Alia Parise to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Alia and I have been seeing each other around the fit model world for a few years now. We often work together with the same clients, and I knew I needed to have a conversation with her.Alia is a plus model who works with a wide range of clients. Because we both actively work as fit models, I wanted to discuss her experience as it pertains to her own body image. Her insight into what it takes to mentally protect yourself as a fit model is very similar to my own experience, and it was so lovely and healing to chat with someone who works in the same industry.She references how fitting has helped her relate better to her own body and how, despite diet culture and the beauty industry’s loud opinions, she doesn’t want her body to change because she likes the size she’s at - something I can very deeply relate with as well. Alia is a wealth of knowledge in the fit world, and her views on body image inspired me. I left our conversation feeling as empowered as ever in my body, and I hope hearing Alia’s story empowers you too!“ So it's understanding your measurements and how it relates to the public, so you almost become an advocate for other people of your size. And knowing how those comments affect you, that's where you can shut other people down, whether it's a tech, a designer or a friend, and you become a person who can speak for others, and that's really, really gratifying. “- Alia PariseAlia Parise: So I've always been a big girl. My dad was 6’3”, my mom was always 5’7”. So I've always been very tall on the thicker, curvier side. And, you know, growing up through high school and middle school, I was always the tall girl. I always stood at least four or five inches taller than my friends. But I was also always fuller-figured – I'm a 2X model. Most of my clients consider me 2X. And so, I would tend to wear baggy clothing, just things I was really comfortable in, you know, always kind of hiding my body, right? And I didn't get a lot of comments about people saying stuff to me because the thing about being the tall girl was nobody wanted to mess with me. So that was good. I didn't really get picked on a lot.So going into college, I went to an art school. So again, it was really chill. Everybody there was very relaxed. Everybody's kind of focused on their art, so it wasn't really a lot of cliquey. It was kind of divided by majors. I was a graphic design major, and right out of college, I went into this lingerie company. And I know now that they were not very good. At the time, I just took it as a learning experience. So they said, “Oh, as a graphic designer, you're just gonna be back here behind the computer, making sure all the photos look good.” That lasted for all of one photoshoot.So, from there, I started working the photoshoots. I worked hand in hand with the designers. At one point, I was helping them. She was “Ah, I need an idea for this.” I was even helping her. I was like, “Well, what if you try this for a design?” And she and I got very, very close, and we're still friends to this day, but they would also try stuff on me. And I still wasn't kind of comfortable in my body, but I was like, “Nobody's looking. We're all girls. I'm like whatever, I kind of don't care.” And then they brought in a new person to do marketing, and she saw that they were trying some stuff on me. She pulls me aside and goes, “You know you can get paid for that?” I said, “No, I didn't know that.” I didn't even know what a fit model was.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alia Parise: This was about seven years ago. And by that time, this job had just really deteriorated. The place was getting more and more toxic. And so, I was actually on an open casting for Torrid for a fit model, and they were my exact measurements, size 18. And it was actually during that casting that the designer and I were like, “We've had it. We quit!” I was coming home from the casting, I emailed this job and I just said, “I quit!”Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Good for you!Alia Parise: Honestly, the best thing I could have done because this place was toxic. It was like too many cooks in the kitchen, and nobody wanted to take responsibility for anything. But I did chalk it as a learning experience because I did learn, you know, how things were supposed to fit, how photoshoots are actually run, coordinating this model with this agency and this photographer. So that was good.From there, straight up quitting that job. I got the number of the agency that that girl had recommended the new marketing person, and I've been with that agency ever since. I went not necessarily full-time into fit modeling because, you know, as you start as a fit model, your work is slow. It was about a month or two before I got a really good client. I was there twice a week starting off, and from there I got thrown into the deep end of the fitting pool. I started off doing swimwear.Megan Gill: I actually started off doing swimwear as well. So you're like, “Ope!” Yeah, you're right in it. Okay. Cool. Cool, cool.Alia Parise: Exactly. I got thrown into the deep end. It's like I'm trying on skimpy underwear. And so, I got thrown into the deep end of the pool. I was having a conversation with somebody else one time. They're like, “I didn't realize just how much you're actually naked.” I was like, “Well, yeah, you're constantly changing clothes. You're not always naked in front of people, but yes, depending on what you're wearing.”Megan Gill: Right, and I feel like that forces you to get a little bit more comfortable with your body, kind of right off the bat, or not even comfortable, but it forced me to be okay with being in bikinis in front of people, you know?Alia Parise: Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. That first job where I got two days a week, it was knitwear, so it was like sweaters like this, shirts, skirts. And so, that got me a little more comfortable into actually talking about fit modeling, you know, fixing this, fixing that.And then going into swimwear, like you said, I started to get more comfortable with my body much faster. And what I did realize, I got this from a couple of the techs, a couple of the designers, is they want you to be happy in the clothes. And so, it's like what can I do to change this? So you would be happy buying this? And that really changed my mindset. So they want the clothes to look good on you, and they want you to feel good in them, so you would be comfortable buying them at whatever price range they have at that point.And so, I really got really comfortable with myself really fast. I've always been a big girl all my life. I've never been smaller than a 16 (except when I was 16). So I got comfortable being bigger chested, being curvier in my hip, and I've never really had a problem with that. But also what I've learned in fit modeling is you go into a fitting, and you're gonna hear a couple of phrases like, “This looks awful. “This doesn't look good.” And “Oh, this looks terrible. We need to fix it.” And if you're new to fit modeling and don't know anything about constructive criticism, that's gonna hurt.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alia Parise: So I will say having that little bit of design background from design school, teachers telling you your art sucks, fix, has given me a little bit of a thicker skin. So I will say, I feel like I had a little bit of a leg up there.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. I can relate with you on that too, coming from the theater world and the acting world where I'm so used to hearing no at this point, that when I get feedback or when I get that email like, “Oh, sorry, we went in a different direction.” I'm like, “Oh, wow, that's out of the norm.” So I can relate with you on that. I think it does help prepare you to not take things personally when comments are made, or when maybe you don't get the job even, or helping you understand that it's not about your body. It's not your body that “doesn't look good.” It's like we're here for like garments, right?Alia Parise: Exactly, you develop a little bit of a thicker skin. Every now and again, you get some comment that was just like, okay, that was out of line. I think you mentioned here, not necessarily horror stories, but that first client, that swimmer client, they had a male tech there. It's not often that you see men who are techs, but every now and again, you get one. And we were talking about plans for the weekend. I said, “Oh, I'm going to the Sriracha factory.” Once a year. They had like a big open house. You get to see them process the chilies and they have different vendors come in. It was very, very cool. I don't know if they still do that. I need to look that up.Megan Gill: That's so cool.Alia Parise: And so, I was very excited telling them about this. I was like, “They have all these things you could try, sriracha chips and all this other stuff.” And he made some comment to the effect of, “Well, don't overdo it this weekend. I want these samples to fit on Monday.” And I was like, “Excuse me?”Megan Gill: Yep. Mm-hmm. Wild.Alia Parise: Even the other texts and the designers looked at him like, “I can't believe he said that.” He wasn't there for that long afterwards. I maybe he had one more fitting with him, and then he was gone.Megan Gill: Okay, that's good because that's, oof. Yeah.Alia Parise: They realized that’s not okay.Megan Gill: Which is great because I feel like there are so many spaces in which those comments are so normalized. I mean, and it's even weirder coming from men. I was on a job recently, and it was a male designer. So not a tech, but still. And he was like saying something about how my bust was a little bit under spec, so I was wearing a thicker bra to hit their spec. And he was like, “Oh, are you wearing the proper undergarment?” And I was , “Yeah. And she was like, “Yeah, she's hitting 37 and a half bust,” whatever. And he said something about how the other designer said that I was fat because my bust was actually on spec, and it was so shocking to my system.Alia Parise: Wow.Megan Gill: That's so out of line. You're not funny. That’s not funny. And so, god, I was just like, “Ooh, sheesh.” And what happened to you too, like excuse me? It's that type of shit that's perpetuated – it’s that type of language and that type of phrase continually perpetuates these diet culture narratives. Or I don't know about you, I'm curious to hear your take on as fit models, we are expected to “maintain this size,” right, in order to keep our clients. We're constantly battling – at least I know I am constantly battling that, “Okay, I wanna try to stay the same size so that I'm not losing clients and up and down and all over the place.” And so, I feel like those types of comments could really get to a person and really affect someone. I think it's hard also as the model. How do we shut that down when you need – like, I want that client, but I don't like that language. So how do you kindly say, “Oh, that was inappropriate,” without being like – you know?Alia Parise: I think I would say it really depends on the client and kind of who's saying it to you. And for me as a plus size model, because there is a lot of variation in plus size, especially with me depending on my measurements. I've had clients call me a 1X, 0X, a 2X, 18, 20, even a 22. My measurement's the exact same, but I've had so much variety in these measurements, and it really is having to have that thicker skin. I understand I'm a big girl, but I've never had the comment of anybody calling me fat, luckily.Megan Gill: Thank god.Alia Parise: I know there are some plus-size influencers that are saying, you know, “Fat doesn't mean ugly. Fat is not a bad word.” I'm like I get that, but it's still a hurtful word if people are using it that way.Megan Gill: Exactly, right. We need to normalize the word in general and not demonize it. And I think our culture has just completely gone that direction with it.Alia Parise: They’ve absolutely gone nuts with it. There was one particular client, not a full-on horror story, but the client was just very, very toxic. They had brought me in, they always did what they call straight size, you know, like extra small through extra large, maybe some extra large. It was a bit of a higher-end brand, so they were introducing inclusive sizing.They brought in plus experts from New York and another one that they actually brought out of retirement from Florida. And so, I worked hand in hand with these designers, but the techs were – I'd say a good number of them were very forceful, very blunt, and they would pick at your clothes like this, and they would pick at you, and they would, you know, kind of forcefully turn you while you're working on the garment. And the missy model I was working with at the time, she'd been fitting with them for, like, 18 years, and that was her only client. And so, she would, you know, pull me aside, say, “Oh, I'm sorry about this, I'm sorry about this.” I'm like, “That's not okay.” And she would say, “Oh, does so-and-so pinch you?” I said, “Pinch me?” And she goes, “Yeah, when she grabs the clothes, she pinches me.” I said, “She only pinched me once.” She goes, “Well, what did you do?” I said, “I turned to her, and I just forcefully said, ‘Don't pinch me.’”Megan Gill: Yeah, we have to advocate for ourselves.Alia Parise: Absolutely. It's a case of being a fit model, you have to kind of walk that delicate line of being strong for yourself, advocating for yourself, but not offending anybody because everybody in the fashion industry, they're not high strung, but there is a lot of ego there. And so, say for, in inclusive sizing or plus sizing, if something doesn't look good and they’re like, “I like this.” And you have to very carefully say, “I understand you like this design, but for plus you may have to, you know, add a dart here for a bigger body to make it flattering.” So it's hard to work in advocating for yourself and for other people of your size while walking that delicate line of not offending the designer because if they don't like you, you don't get that job anymore.Megan Gill: Right. That is so, so true. And then that comes along with you are out here just trying to do your job to the best of your ability by offering these comments, which is what we're hired to do, right? I mean, obviously with certain clients, you kind of like understand how much feedback they're looking for, but at the end of the day, it's like we want these garments to then fit other people of similar size and fit them well. And like you were saying earlier, we want people to actually want to purchase them. That is part of the job. So if you're offering up this feedback that's like, “Hey, actually I think this could make it better,” and they're so opposed to it, it kind of defeats the purpose of them hiring you, right?Alia Parise: Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: Yeah.Alia Parise: Every situation is different. Every client is different. It's like if you build a good rapport with the techs and the designers, they'll take your comments into good consideration.There was one client I worked with where they had two different designers but all under the same label, so the styles were similar. But one designer wouldn't listen to me at all. She'd say, “Oh, add a half inch here.” And I said, “No, you need to add at least an inch and a half because otherwise it's not gonna fit. This fabric does not stretch.” And she was just kind of like whatever. And at some point you kind of stop giving comments because you know they're not gonna listen. And then the little part of your brain says, “Okay, well I'll let your returns speak for me because I said this. This is how you fix this.”But in the exact same company, there was another designer that would come in with her tech, and they would constantly ask for feedback. “How much you do this, how much you do this? What about here? What about here?” And they would even ask for design feedback like, “What about having this line here?” I said, “Oh, for a fuller bust it should be up here.” And she would ask for a lot of feedback. And at one point I was so frustrated with this other designer that I kind of pulled the one who listened to me aside and said, “She's not listening to my comments. The garments aren't gonna fit well.” And she kind of said, “She doesn't listen to anybody, so the returns are gonna have to speak for themselves,” like what I was saying.Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Which is hard.Alia Parise: Yeah, it's hard because you get the designers and the techs who listen, and you get those who don't. And then you get the really interesting ones who want to do their own thing like, “Oh, that's how it's supposed to look.” And I'm like, “Well, it's not really flattering.” She goes, “Well, that's the style.” And at that point, you kind of have to stop giving feedback because they stopped listening.Megan Gill: Right. It's like less of a collaborative experience at that point, which is unfortunate for everyone. Not only for you, for us not being heard as the fit model, who's there to do this job, but then also the company that's maybe not gonna sell these garments because they're not actually gonna fit. Yeah, I know, I feel like it really keeps us on our toes, moving from client to client, and kind of having to get to know new clients and how they work and kind of what's going on there and like how exactly they're looking to work with a model. It's such interesting work.Alia Parise: Yeah, and it constantly shifts. Especially also if you get one of those high-profile clients that changes management. That same client that wanted to bring me in to do inclusive sizing, they had the good techs. They had a couple that were iffy, but once I kind of put my foot down, they listened to me. So that was good. But then they brought in a new directing manager. She got rid of a bunch of techs. She brought in some new ones who didn't listen, and you know, it's pretty standard to be measured once a month for a client. She wanted to get us measured every two weeks, and then she bumped it up to every single week.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh.Alia Parise: Like you said, it really does take a toll on you mentally, especially – she also was an older model. I believe she was in her fifties, which also doesn't help because she knows as being in her fifties, she's getting ready to be phased out.Megan Gill: Mm, yeah, which also I hate that side of it all. I think it's really amazing when I see an older model. I’m like, “Yes, okay!” That gives me hope. Also, older women using their bodies to fit garments, we also need that in this industry. Like we need such an array of different people and different bodies and ages. Oh, gosh, it's so wild.I actually have a similar story where there was a switch in design. The full design team left. They brought in another new full design team. And this was a client that had just started bringing me in a lot. They were always consistent. I had been fitting with them for over a year at this point, and they had been bringing me in for all-day fits. I mean, I was really booking out a lot of time for this client, which was awesome. But my point of contact was a tech, and she left as well. A lot of the team left, and the new tech team got really weird about measuring, because I genuinely, truly, genuinely was on spec for them. What they were looking for in a missy model, I was right down the middle. But this was like last summer. It was really hot. Our bodies expand when it's hot. You're changing clothes, and you are lowkey sweating and your body's hot. And they were like, “Your bust is way over, blah, blah, blah.” And one of the new techs pulled me outside and was like, “Hey, your bust is over,” and I was just trying to advocate for myself as much as I could. Like, “Listen, I measure myself a lot. I know I'm on spec for you guys. I am maybe not wearing the right bra today. It could be anything. We could be on our cycle, like our bodies shift, give or take, throughout like our monthly cycles so much, that I think it is really unfortunate that some clients put so much stress.Alia Parise: Absolutely.Megan Gill: It's almost like inadvertent stress on us models, generally speaking. It's so hard. And then I do have the clients that are pretty forgiving, and even if I am like an inch under here or an inch over here, we just take that into account when we're fitting, and I'm really grateful for those clients. And I think that I've learned a lot through that experience last summer. It’s like we just need to have a little bit more grace and not be quite as cutthroat because the things that these techs and designers are saying to us and like saying to models and saying to people that are using their bodies for their job, it's very delicate and it could so easily send us into like a very dark mental place, and I think about that all the time.I have done a lot, a lot, a lot of work on my own body image and just body image in general and kind of pulling myself out of this hole that I was stuck in for so long when I was struggling and going through it. But then I'm like, gosh, if these people are saying these things to me and they're still kind of, you know, hitting that little wounded part of me, I can only imagine how it would feel to be someone who is maybe in the thick of struggling or somebody who is maybe not doing mentally so well as far as their body image goes. It's like we really have to be careful, and I don't know where that shift happens. But I feel like we also do have a hand in it, like you were saying, kind of as far as advocating for ourselves in these ways and like being firm but kind at the same time and kind of just shutting this stuff down.Alia Parise: And I think the main thing is kind of shutting it down. I've seen videos on Instagram, on reels, you know, models shutting down photographers when they make those comments or telling on these clients that will do things to them. And I think you have to really grow into that confidence. You and I have a little bit of a thicker skin developed from previous experience, me from design school, from constructive criticism. I developed that early, and in that first couple of years of fit modeling, knowing that they want you to be happy in the clothes. And even designers who said, “Oh, this looks awful,” they’ll turn to you and say, “It’s not you. It's the clothes. We want you to look good!” And those designers and those techs will build you up enough that you can deal with the other ones. But it is definitely a self-confidence thing, and it's not just dealing with it in your job, you're also dealing with it in your daily life.Unfortunately, I do have a friend who's a little bit negative and a little bit judgmental. We'll be at a Starbucks and somebody is walking down the street, and they're a little bit thicker, but they're wearing something tight. And she'll say, “Just because they make it your size doesn't mean you should wear it.” And I said, “Let her wear what she wants to wear.” And I've gone off on her for that.Megan Gill: I am so glad that you did because, excuse me, what?Alia Parise: I said, “That's none of your business. Let her wear what she wants to wear!”Megan Gill: Yeah, one hundred percent.Alia Parise: I'm like, “It's not your business, I don't care.” And she's like, “Well, I don't care either.” I said, “If you didn't care, you wouldn't have made that comment.” It's like it’s not your business. She can wear what she wants to wear.Megan Gill: Right, oh, I think that's such an important piece of it.Alia Parise: Yeah.Megan Gill: That it preps you to like shut it down in your personal life as well. Because I can relate with that. I have friends that say something and they're like, “Oh, you're the body image girl! You probably hate that.” And I'm like, “Yeah, there's a different way. Let's talk about it!” It’s maybe not like our emotional labor to kind of teach other people, but to a degree, I don't mind taking that on because I think that, like you were saying, at this point, I have enough self-confidence, and I've developed like a little bit more discernment as far as like how to handle this stuff.Alia Parise: Exactly. And almost when you become a fit model, you almost become an advocate for your size because it's not just for you, it's for other people. There's one client that I fit for, and they use multiple plus models. And our measurements may be the same, but our body shapes are different. The client I was at this morning, they use one model for a couple of teams. They use me for another couple of teams. For example, her bust is a little bit smaller than me, so they call me in to do the brass for a true 40DD, and then they'll try on other stuff and they say, “Oh, well this is a little bit tight here and this is a little bit big here.” And then you tell them, “Oh, you need to find the happy medium because the other model is, you know, bigger than me here, but my under bust is smaller, or my hip is not as – it's a little flat there. It's not as round.” And so you understand not necessarily the flaws of your body, but how your body is shaped and how it compares to different people. I know, for example, my arms are always one inch long no matter what client I fit with.Megan Gill: Mine too!Alia Parise: So no matter what I fit with, that sweater is always gonna look like it hits here. My arms are just long, and depending on the trends, long sleeves are in, so yay for me.Megan Gill: I know. I know!Alia Parise: But if they want shorter sleeves, I'm like, “Yeah, that's gonna be like this on me.” So it's understanding your measurements and how it relates to the public, so you almost become an advocate for other people of your size, and knowing how those comments affect you, that's where you can shut other people down, whether it's a tech, a designer or a friend. And you become a person who can speak for others. And that's really, really gratifying.That swimwear job that I no longer work at, just because they were a little bit toxic and they kind of got worse, but they did swimwear for Walmart, so it was really cool, next season, going into Walmart and seeing these things on the rack and you feel a little bit of pride like, “I helped make that,” especially when somebody picks it up and says, “Oh, this is cute!” And you're like, “Yeah, I helped with that!” And it's a really good confidence booster because just in your own body, it's like, “I used my body to help this look good and help somebody else feel good!” So that is a huge confidence booster. I honestly think all fit models should go to the store, see stuff on, and see what other people think. And you're just like, “Ah!”Megan Gill: Agreed. I'm getting emotional right now because it's so true. And it's so important. If you really break it down, the work that we're doing is so, so needed, and gosh, hearing you talk about that it’s like you're advocating for other bodies and like other people of your size too, it’s just like, “Ah!” Yeah, that really is what we're doing, and it's really beautiful and lovely, and I also feel a sense of pride when I'm in Target and I'm like, “Oh!” I’ll be with my mom, “I fit that and that and that!” because you know, with explaining what you do – yeah, it is fun. You're like, “This is what I’m doing! I'm making sure these clothes can fit like a real human body of other people that are my size!” It's so, so cool.Alia Parise: It's fun. And honestly, what I do like about fit modeling is I'm usually not a fan of being in front of the camera. I'll do an occasional print job, but I like being behind the camera. People say, “Oh, you're a model. It must be so glamorous.” Like, no, as a fit model, we are the unglamorous model. We're behind the camera, we're covered in pins, we're covered in marker.Megan Gill: It’s so true!Alia Parise: I came home one day, it was hysterical, and they tried on three or four different swimwear tops and swimwear bottoms. And so, you know, they're gonna take a Crayola marker, mark where that one is, then throw on the next one to another Crayola marker, and then you come home covered in marker. And so, there was one spot I couldn't reach, and to my sister I was like, “Amira, can you help me get this?” And she was like –Megan Gill: You like, “Oh, it’s part of the job!”Alia Parise: It's part of the job, and then she turns to me and she goes, “I could not do your job. I could not have somebody in my personal space like that.”Megan Gill: Listen, that's fair.Alia Parise: It really is Fair.Megan Gill: Yeah, but it's true. It's nice that there's something about the unglamorous side of fit modeling that's so freeing for me. As someone who grew up dancing competitively, I studied musical theater in college, I did it professionally for a while, so I've always grown up looking at myself in the mirror in a very “glamorous light,” I think kind of. With dance and music theater, your hair is up, you're in a costume, you have full makeup on. So it's been really lovely and freeing to just show up to my fit clients with no makeup, my hair up, bare. It truly has helped me feel more in my body and more in love with my natural self, being in front of the mirror and being on display and being in front of the designers and techs and even just like the photos. Some clients take photos and they'll cut your head out, but with some clients, my head's in it on the iPad or whatever, and I'm just like, “Whatever!” It's been a good challenge for me to be like, “Yeah, it doesn't matter because it's not about that. It's not about how I look,” which has been so freeing.Alia Parise: Yeah, it's very freeing. Like I said, I've just become so comfortable in my body, but the good and bad thing is I can go to a store, I can pick something up, I can look at it on the hanger like, “Okay, I know that will fit.” It's like I throw something on, I don't even need to try it on. The bad thing is with fitting for clients who have really good quality stuff, it's like you're going through and you and you touch something on the hanger and you're like, “Ew!” It kind of ruins you for shopping off the rack.Megan Gill: No, it's so true.Alia Parise: But it's also interesting because you can tell which companies will use a fit model and which won't because, you know, certain things will pinch a certain way, and you can tell, “Okay, this was never thrown on a person. This was thrown on a mannequin.”Megan Gill: Yep. So true.Alia Parise: And after just so much experience, you really become a master of your craft to the point where you can even help clients at the pattern-making level. I cannot tell you how many clients, especially when they do pants for plus size, it's like, “Oh, this always looks wrong.” I said, “Let me show you the exact fix that they need to do for plus size. You fix the rise length. And then, you know, then you can get into the terminology. It's like, “Most of the time when they grade the rise for plus, the rise ends up looking like this. You need to change the grade so it looks like this, and that’s how you fix the rise shape.” And they all go, “Oh!”I've actually worked with a lot of clients who've never done plus size before. And so, you get enough experience, you can help make those changes, and you've helped experienced designers, you've helped experience techs, and you know that they're gonna make a good product. And again, going back to that sense of pride thing, you know, you've done a good job, and it's really wonderful. So it's very, very satisfying.Megan Gill: Oh, it's so rewarding. And even just that, the fact that you can step in to a client who maybe hasn't worked with a plus model before and be like, “This is how you shift the rise,” that is so incredible and so needed. And the impact you've then had on these people, this company, the clothes they're going to put out into the world, it has so many ripple effects. Yeah, I love that.—Alia Parise: I was fitting with this client that did bridesmaids dresses. They had another model who is a little bit bigger than me here, and then they had to change a lot of the fits to fit me and accommodate me, and I had a little bit bigger hips than she did. So I fit with them for a little less than a year. And then of course, got the call, “We're going in a different direction.” But internally you don't take it too hard because you know that this is not going to do well for the client because they've had to make so many changes that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot. So you don't really take it as personally, and it's kind of like, “Okay, whatever, onto the next client.” And so, that’s, like you said, tying back to the anxiety of staying within a certain measurement, but then you've got clients that turn around and change their measurements, so you can't win.Megan Gill: Oh gosh, I know! I feel like I've been fitting for Target for over two years now, which is awesome. But yeah, I feel like things are always changing, but I do think that, for me, the big mental shift that has really helped me when losing a client or when a client doesn't call me back in or whatever, is I just remind myself there's gonna be another client. Something else is gonna come around.When I first started doing it, it was very sparse, very few and far between. The pandemic hit nothing for a while with the pandemic. And then 2022 I think is really when it started to take off for me. So three years ago. And now fitting consistently for three years, I understand the ebb and the flow of it all. I agree with you, I love this work, and I'm so grateful to get to do it, and I truly, truly enjoy it. This brings me so much more joy and purpose. And I just really, truly love going to my clients. I don't know that I've ever really felt that before with a job, I guess, that wasn't my creative pursuit. So I love that you feel that too. It's fun to talk about it with someone else who also really, really enjoys it.Alia Parise: Absolutely. I agree. Like I said, I wanna do this job as long as I can.Megan Gill: Yeah, me too.Alia Parise: And I say that because I've got bad knees, so you’ve just gotta be careful what shoes you wear.Megan Gill: Yeah. No, it is so, so true. Oh my goodness. And it is nice that at least with this work, we are on our feet and maybe not moving quite as much as when I used to serve. It was funny, when I started doing longer fittings and how much my body hurt and how much my feet hurt and my lower back, versus when I was serving a year ago. You're just walking so much that you don't really notice it quite as much. I was never really sore or in pain. Whereas with fitting sometimes, it's like, “Whoa, okay, my body –,” because you're just kind of standing there and changing clothes, and that takes a lot of energy, but I'm grateful that it at least allows me to be on my feet and move my body a little bit and that I'm not always stuck at a desk, kind of like you were saying too. At least we get to be out and about and driving from this client to this client and there's some movement involved, which is lovely.Alia Parise: Yeah, it's the variety. You get to stand, you get to sit, you get to move around. It's fun going to the clients that do athleticwear and they're you know, “Do squats. Do a couple of jumping jacks. Do a few exercises to see how the clothes react.” And you're like, “Okay!” It’s not good when you did leg day the day before, but yes.Megan Gill: So true! I also love fitting athleticwear because you're like, “Oh my gosh, yes. This is so important! Let's make sure they're not see-through. Let's make sure I can move in them and the leggings aren't rolling down on me.” All of the things that you would want for yourself, you get to put into these garments that are going to then go be sold to so many people, which is so cool and so incredible.I don't know if you've felt this way, I'm curious. I think that fitting has helped me love my body. My relationship with my body, it’s really strengthened it because we are using our own unique bodies that are shaped in these unique ways to fit these clothes. We're using our own body as the tool and oh, gosh, going back to it being rewarding, that feels so rewarding. And it also just reminds me that my body is good, my body is needed, my body is doing this job that is so influential for all the people that are gonna go buy these clothes.Alia Parise: Exactly. It really is. You just become grateful for your body. It's like every time I look in the mirror, there are a few personal things that I would like to see. You know, we're not symmetrical. I've got one boob that's bigger than the other. That's me.Megan Gill: Oh, same. Yep. Me too.Alia Parise: A little curve here that's not on this side. I wish I was a little more symmetrical, but every time I look in the mirror, I'm extremely happy with what I see. I think I look great. I've got a nice shape. This looks good on me. This looks good on me. And I never had that feeling of – right? Like I said, there are a couple things I personally would like to change, but it's just for me, it's not for anybody.Megan Gill: Yeah, me too.Alia Parise: And I'm always so happy when I look in the mirror. I'm very grateful. I'm happy for the skin that I'm in. I don't wanna gain weight. I don't wanna lose weight. Everybody out there saying, “Oh, do this to get this body,” or “Do this to lose five pounds.” It is none of your business.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Amen.Alia Parise: I'm so happy in my own body, and once you become so happy in your own skin, your own body, your own shape, you can get better at ignoring those other voices, mass media, the random person, you know, the hater on Instagram who's got no life, you know? You get better about ignoring those voices, and you just become so strong and so happy in your own shape. For example, I always think I look great in the mirror, and then I turn around and see myself in a camera, and I’m like, “Hmm, I'm actually bigger than I thought I was.” But it doesn't bother me. You know, the camera adds ten pounds. It doesn't distribute it. It's not fair.Megan Gill: It is also so disorienting. I've struggled with a lot of body dysmorphia in my history, and it's like all of these different ways we see ourselves are all so different. And a lot of it I feel like, for me, has been in my head. So it's almost pulling myself out and being like, “Whoa, okay. Why do I think that my body is taking up this much space, when in reality, A, it doesn't really matter because if I feel good in my body, who cares how much space it's taking up, and B, I really need to get out of my own way because it's doing me such a disservice to like the times that I do like look and see, like, “Ugh, I don't like that,” or “I'm bigger than I thought I was on camera,” or whatever it is. It's been so, so important for me to challenge those thoughts every single time they come up, or just like feeling different about them kind of like you were saying like ,”Eh, okay, whatever. So I don't love the way I look in this photo. Okay. All right. Whatever,” you know, instead of taking it in and like taking it to heart.Oh, I'm just so glad that you shared that. I was just like, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!” as you were talking, yeah.Alia Parise: It's like we all have bad days. I had one last week, and I was like, “Oh, I'm really big. I'm really bloated,” and then my brain was like, “Yo, you were in a car accident. You're a little swollen. You're fine,” or it's like, you know, you're on your period, or whatever. It's like, "Remember that you had Mexican last night. You're gonna be a little swollen.” It’s like you have to train your brain to stop the negative thought and reframe it. And that does take a lot of work. I'm still doing it myself.Megan Gill: Yeah. Every day.Alia Parise: Yeah, right now I'm going through a lot of kind of a self-development journey myself right now. It's like my body confidence is pretty strong. Right now, I'm working on the mental game. It's stopping those negative thoughts so I don't spiral or have a bad day. That’s a big thing.Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yes, yes, yes. It totally is. I can absolutely relate with you on that. I'm very much on a similar journey, and it's so interesting to be so aware and it's the thing, once you see it, you can't unsee it. So once those thoughts start popping up, and you're so aware of the thought that you're like, “Hey, but wait, brain!” It's so cool to have that experience. Yeah, it sucks, obviously, that these negative thoughts come up, but the reality is they are gonna come up, and if we can just work on our relationship to those thoughts and work on the tools in our toolbox to navigate them and to not take them so literally, or take them to heart and be able to work through them. What empowering work. It's so transformative. I feel like it can change everything for us, which is really cool.Alia Parise: Absolutely, I agree, and I really think what would help the industry is if the agents who are sending these models out there really take the time to work with these models and say, “Be aware. This is how a casting works. This is how a fitting works.” I really think that they should prepare some of these girls and guys too. It's like you are going to experience one of three situations, one of four situations, and take the time to work with your models. Don't just say, “Show up at this address. Ask for this person.” I've worked with many fit models on, tandem fittings, you know, plus and size small/missy side-by-side. And a lot of times this model I've worked with, it's either her first fitting, her second fitting, and she doesn't even know how to fill out the paper.Megan Gill: Oh, wow. Yeah.Alia Parise: And they're just standing there, and I can see them visibly reacting to comments that they say about the clothes. And then when I come up, I make sure she's looking at me and I give different feedback and stand a certain way. And then I'll kind of pull her aside saying, okay, this is how you wanna say this. This is how you wanna do that. And I really think agents don't prepare their models for that. It's kind of scary. When I signed on with an agency a few years back, they were saying, oh, please read through and acknowledge all of this paperwork and documents. And there was a warning in there about being aware of the signs of bulimia and anorexia.Megan Gill: Wow. Wow.Alia Parise: Yeah, it’s terrifying. So they’ll give you this paperwork, but talk to your models. Have them be aware of this because it's really mental. The fashion industry is very harsh on your mental game and your mental awareness of yourself and how you're with these people. So I really think agencies should prepare their models more and being fellow models, make friends with your fellow models. They are not competition at all. Those are your truest friends. They will look out for you and you all will be together because we are a sisterhood, brotherhood. Your fellow models will look out for you. Yeah, you've got the ones who are kind of up in their ego and then they see you as competition, but you mentally know that they're not gonna last long, but it's being there for each other.I did a fitting one time where I was a 2X, and they did a size-run fitting. So they had extra small, small, medium, all the way up to 3X or 4X. All of these models were print models. None of them knew anything about fitting.Megan Gill: Wow.Alia Parise: They were all asking each other, and I said, “You guys have never done a fitting?” And they all said, “No.” I said, “Okay, gather around my peoples!”Megan Gill: Yeah, “I got you!”Alia Parise: They pulled out their phones. “What's your Instagram?” So that feels really good helping your fellow models, helping other people in this situation.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, I fully agree with you. And for me, oh my gosh, I was not fully prepared. My agents did a decent job of prepping me, but I feel like so much of it also is you get the experience by being on the job, right? You don't really know how it's gonna go down until you're doing it, until you're in the fitting and experiencing it for yourself or when you're experiencing that size run. Or for one of my first tandem fittings I was just listening, taking note, and taking in so much information from the other models I was working alongside. And I think that's another piece of it too. I really cared about this work from day one, and I was really excited about it, so I wanted to learn and understand how to give amazing feedback and how to approach each job. And now, I absolutely agree with everything you're saying. I want to give back to other models in the ways that models before me gave to me and helped me and lent me a hand when I needed it, you know? Or when you have a question.I came to you with a question recently, and you were so awesome, and I just so appreciate that because I agree. It's like we are all holding hands in this together. If I'm out of casting and there are other models, like I'm gonna chit chat with them, I'm gonna try to become friends with them. “I want you to book this as much as I wanna book this. We're all in this together,” you know? Which feels really cool. It's such a lovely place to be in. Yeah, it's really special.Alia Parise: Yeah, and that's my biggest thing the last couple years is definitely giving back. I did a couple of interviews with Plus Model Magazine, and they actually published them in the magazine, which I thought was really cool.Megan Gill: That's amazing.Alia Parise: And then I had another model saying, “Oh, well they're not that big of a magazine.” I'm like, “They reach enough people. I don't care!”Megan Gill: Yeah. Who cares? Oh my gosh!Alia Parise: And I eventually actually pulled all these articles that I did together and actually put together a book.Megan Gill: I was gonna ask you about this because I went on a deep dive. I saw it on your Instagram, and I was planning on bringing it up here because I think that that's an incredible way to give back and no one has done that before, and so, I'm so excited that you did that. Yeah, sorry. Continue. I'm just excited!Alia Parise: Yeah. And so, it started off with a couple articles, like what's in your fitting bag? One of the big things was doing a virtual fitting. I know you said you didn't have work during the pandemic, but I did. I had a couple of clients that really could not stop fitting. And so, what they ended up doing was sending samples to me at my house. I had a cleaner backdrop. And then I would have a setup just like this. I would fit the clothes virtually and then send them back to them. Lysol is your friend.And so, I was explaining my setup, the tablet, working with your agent, and I think I did one other article. I don't remember off the top of my head. But I basically took those three articles and combined it and put them together in the book. It's literally called Fit Model 101: An Introductory Guide to Working in the Fashion Industry. It's not necessarily a how-to book. It's really just to get you started. What is a fitting versus what is a casting, looking for the right agency. I don't name any names. I just say, “I would recommend looking at an agency that has a department that does fitting because then they know what jobs to book you for.” The first thing on there is don't quit your day job because you don't get jobs instantly. You don't.Megan Gill: Right, right, right. Yeah, so important, such important stuff.Alia Parise: Exactly. And there's a whole chapter in there that I specifically wanted to expand on talking about your mental awareness. When people say, “This doesn't look good, they're not talking about you. They want you happy in the clothes.” And there's a small section in the back that’s, “When they say bust, it's this measurement. When they say over bust, it's this measurement,” and little sections in the back with little bits of terminology. You know, every client is different. Some call PP some call pre-production, QC, and I say in the book, they do not expect you to learn these terms right away. They really don't. And because then you'll get into more technical stuff. With bras, there's a lot of different technical stuff: wires, gores, lining, different fabric. Swimwear is extremely technical. There's elastic, there's rubber, there's layers, there's mesh. It's a lot. So I don't put all that in the book. It's just literally a beginner's guide. “This is how you get started. If you need a quick reference guide, here's what PP means. Here's what first fit means, and general comments about giving feedback.” If someone asks, “Oh, how do you like that top?” saying, “I don't like it,” is not helpful. You may not know the term, but saying, “Oh, it's too big here. It's too tight here.” That is helpful feedback. Saying you don't like it is not helpful.Megan Gill: Right, right, right. Yep. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you wrote this, and I'm so glad that it's out there, and it’s so important. All the agencies should be like handing one of these to their new fit models like, “Here we go to get you started!”Alia Parise: Honestly, I've kind of put it off. I haven't done a print run of it yet. It's only digital. It's available on my website. It's not on Amazon yet. I need to work with a publisher and some print copies and send them out to the agents because they have the link where they can get it on my site and then they'll get an agency discount. It's like 10% or 15% depending on who I sent the link to. But yeah, I don't make a lot of money off of it, but I get the satisfaction of giving back to these models. In fact, when I get a purchase through my website of the book, I will email the person who purchased it, “Thank you for purchasing. Please let me know if you have any questions. Once in a while I'll get a question, but most of the time they're like, “Okay, thanks. I'm good!”Megan Gill: I love that. That's incredible. Truly. It's amazing. Thank you, Alia. Thank you so much for chatting with me. This was so good for my soul, and I'm just really grateful for you for taking your time to talk with me.Alia Parise: Yes, I'm grateful to be here. I really, really love talking about the subject. You can tell I'm very passionate, especially advocating for plus size. More and more companies are doing it. Not every company is doing it right, so that's my goal. It’s to try to help all the companies do it right. And it's like advocating for more plus size. Everybody wants to be included, and we want to feel cute in our clothes. We should not not have that because we're an 18 or whatever size. And so, this subject is really close to my heart and I'm glad you asked me to be here, and I'm glad to have talked to you today, Megan.“ I'm so happy in my own body, and once you become so happy in your own skin, your own body, your own shape, you can get better at ignoring those other voices (mass media, the random person, you know, the hater on Instagram who's got no life). You just become so strong and so happy in your own shape. For example, I always think I look great in the mirror, and then I turn around and see myself in a camera. I was like, ‘Hmm, I'm actually bigger than I thought I was.’ But it doesn't bother me because the  camera adds 10 pounds. It doesn't distribute it. It's not fair.”- Alia PariseFor three years, Alia worked as a graphic designer at a lingerie company and accomplished many things and expanded her skill set. From working in the fashion industry, she discovered fit modeling and found that it suited her! She began my fit modeling career eight years ago, and while the work wasn’t immediate, she gained experience slowly but steadily. She’s fit with a variety of clients from swimwear to lingerie to athleisure to luxury lifestyle brands. Every client, individual, and company she’s worked with was a blessing and an excellent learning experience. They were varied in their direction and execution, and it gave her a great opportunity to expand her horizons and accomplish many different projects and goals. Being different is fun; being ordinary is boring. Look at everything for what it can be!Follow Alia on InstagramConnect with Alia on her WebsiteGet Alia’s Book: Fit Model 101: An Introductory Guide to Working in the Fashion IndustrySubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my yoga teacher and new friend Marissa Procelli to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! I’ve been taking Mar’s yoga classes for about two years now, and it wasn’t long before I recognized she approaches her teaching through a healthy body image lens. Her language in her classes spoke to me and allowed me to further deepen my connection to my own body in my practice.Mar is an incredible leader, and I’m so excited to share our conversation with you. There are so many chunks of wisdom hiding in here for you, and I hope if you’re in the South Bay/LA area, you come take one of her classes to experience her magic for yourself!“  It's really hard in this industry to not have people look at your body as your business card because, as a teacher, whether it's privates or yoga or strength training or Pilates or whatever, when they come to your class, a lot of people, whether they mean it consciously or not, look at your body as your business card. I can teach things that I don't know how to do in my own body. I can prep you and get you all ready to go and work into the splits. Do I have my full splits? No, I do not. My hope is that for people to understand, as teachers, it's about our knowledge, it's about what we've studied, it's about how much work we put into creating either a flow or a playlist or a type of class. My hope is that people start to see the teacher as what they teach and not what they can do in their own practice.”- Marissa ProcelliMarissa Procelli: So when I was two years old, I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. And so, with that, your joints tend to stiffen and swell and you lose your range of motion in a lot of parts of your body. And growing up with that, I was always in and out of remission, and because of that, I felt like I spent most of my life numbing my body because I was told that I shouldn't feel pain. And so, with all my medications, I was constantly numbing and subsiding the pain, but because of that, I was numbing everything, yeah? And your body's supposed to have a conversation with you, and you're supposed to get input from your body.So growing up I was very active still. I played a lot of sports. Even when I was in the depths of my RA, I always found an alternative. I wasn't cleared to do land sports in high school halfway through. And so, I quit volleyball and basketball, which volleyball I played for, like, five years, and then I just switched to water polo and swim, and I was like, “Okay, I guess I can't do heavy-impact sports, but I can go in the water. So movement was always something that I really enjoyed.And then college happened, and at least my college experience was a lot of going out, a lot of eating fast food, a lot of drinking, and, yes, academics, and I had a lot of great experiences. And I was an athletic trainer or assistant for the football team there. So I did learn about the body, and I was a public health major. But yeah, I was going out, I was having fun. So then when I moved here to LA, I was a very swollen version of myself just because I didn't really understand how to take care of myself.So then when I started yoga, I was thinking, “Oh, this –.” Well, first, I actually didn't like it in terms of, I thought it was so challenging and it wasn't my vibe. But then I realized, after the class, I felt better in my body, and I said, “Oh, I haven't felt good in my body, or I haven't felt period in a long time.” So that was in 2016, and then I was in a really stressful job at the time as a behavior therapist, and I did in-home services, and I was getting a lot of anxiety attacks. And so, I started going to yoga more, and I was like, “Okay, I want to do teacher training.”So I did teacher training, and at the same time as doing teacher training, I'm injecting myself once a week with my arthritis medication. I'm on what's called Methotrexate, which I was on for 20 years off and on, which is a type of chemo. But it helps regulate RA in the body. And so, I'm going from very westernized medicine to learning about yoga, which is very different.And so, then after I did teacher training, I was like, “Okay, how can I incorporate what I have learned in my choices, in how I move my body, how I fuel my body, how I rest my body versus just relying on medication?” So then, I went to a nutritionist. I switched my diet, which was hard. It was like an elimination diet, so I took out things, brought it in, and so, then I figured out what worked. And that was in 2018, like I said, injections on the chemo meds. Six months later, I got off, and I have not been on it since.Megan Gill: Oh my god, my heart.Marissa Procelli: So that was 2018, and it's 2025, and I have not had one ounce of medication for my arthritis since.Megan Gill: That is incredible.Marissa Procelli: Yeah. So the downside part, though, is that because of my diet, I ended up dropping a lot of weight quite quickly, so much so that I dropped I think it was, like, 23 pounds in two and a half months. And I'm a small human. I'm five two. I haven't weighed myself in years, so I don't know how much I weigh, but like I don't have a ton to lose. And while my body was feeling great about not being on meds anymore, the compliments, which I know you hear the word compliment and you're like, “Oh, that's nice. That's a good thing.”Megan Gill: But I know exactly what you mean. Yes.Marissa Procelli: And literally everyone was like, “What are you doing? What?” I still remember to this day walking into my yoga studio and another student looking at me and said, “Oh my god, you lost half of yourself. What did you do?” In like a I-want-to-know-the-secret type of way.Megan Gill: Oh my god.Marissa Procelli: Yeah. So what was initially a good thing then started turning into me getting very intense about my diet, so much so that one of my best friends, still best friend, who's a teacher, a fellow teacher who also has a past of body image and eating disorders, she reached out and was like, “Hey, I'm worried about you, and I just want to check in and see what's up.” And she is a very vital component as to what pulled me out of a very slippery slope.So after that, I started seeing a nutritional therapist and kind of going back onto being balanced. But I was so hardcore about the diet for my RA that it then wasn't about RA anymore. It was about everyone giving me compliments and me wanting to continue that and almost this weird feeling of like, “I feel like if I start gaining weight again, I'll let them down.” It was very weird expectations.Megan Gill: Especially as the person who is leading a movement space where people are looking to you as like their, not mentor, but the leader in that area, yeah.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and also like what I wrote on the notebook was I just was talking about it with a friend, it's really hard in this industry to not have people look at your body as your business card, because as a teacher, whether it's privates or yoga or strength training or Pilates or whatever, when they come to your class, a lot of people, whether they mean it consciously or not, a lot of times they look at your body as –Megan Gill: The projected results or something like that?Marissa Procelli: Exactly. Yeah, as, like, your business card. So it was very tough, and now I'm kind of – I felt really good about it. I did have a bit of a low recently because, like I said, I got sick when I got back. Every time I get sick, after, it's always like, “Oh, like you look great.Megan Gill: “I was just sick!”Marissa Procelli: Yeah! Malnutrition? Is that where we're going for? Yeah, so there are still moments where I have to really pause and back up, and honestly, a lot of my fellow teacher friends, we chat about it every once in a while of the comments that people will make or the things that they expect from themselves based on us. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely there. It's not something we make up. It's a very active conversation, which is hard to, like, navigate sometimes of how to change that topic or almost make it a learning moment in moments.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Like kind of steer the conversation, so that they walk away being like, “Oh, maybe that’s not how I should – maybe I shouldn't speak to my teacher in that way,” not from a disrespectful standpoint.Marissa Procelli: No, and it's all good intentions, right? I do feel that. A lot of people, especially towards me, I don't think they're being malicious in any way, but it's more of we're so used to that.Megan Gill: That conversation is so embedded in our culture.Marissa Procelli: Yes, it is.Megan Gill: It's everywhere! It’s everywhere.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and then I come from a Hispanic family, so it's kind of the opposite. When I go home, a lot of it is like, “You need to eat more.” A lot of the “endearing” terms are gordo and flaco, which is fat and skinny. And they are originally like endearing terms. They really are. But now we're in a world where they didn't really age well.Megan Gill: Mm-hm, totally. And that they could be triggering said under certain circumstances, yeah.Marissa Procelli: Yeah. So it is, it's a lot of navigating other people's impressions of you. And again, a lot of it I don't think is bad. I think it's just so ingrained in us to just say something out loud.Megan Gill: Yep. About our bodies, about the way people look.Marissa Procelli: Comparing…Megan Gill: Oh my god, yes. Or even like you said earlier, the simple compliment that you think is a compliment, but when you're complimenting someone's appearance, okay, I mean, I do it. And I like having this conversation because it's like I've really challenged myself to maybe not pay a compliment about someone's appearance. Even if I'm thinking something I like about their appearance, just to challenge myself to think differently and challenge myself to not fall into that trap because I think it's so easy for all of us. And of course, and it's okay to be like, “You're beautiful. Your skin is glowing.” But still.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, exactly. It’s funny, the way that I've really tried to get out of that, a lot of times I start to look at what people are wearing, in terms of jewelry or outfits. Because for me, honestly, if someone gave me a compliment about my outfit or my jewelry, I get way more excited because I'm like, “Oh, this is something I chose. This is like something that I actively chose to put on my body, and someone else likes it.”Megan Gill: Right, which then is a reflection of me.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, like my personality or how I'm feeling today. So a lot of times I like to give a lot of outfit slash jewelry compliments.Megan Gill: I like that.Marissa Procelli: I love an outfit compliment. And I like to tell people – it's kind of weird. My husband's always like, “You just talked to that person that just walked by you.” I was like, “Yeah, I liked her hat. I wanted her to know that I liked her hat.”Megan Gill: But do you know that that could change someone's day? Truly.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, exactly. Yes, so that's why I get excited about it because I'm like, I'm like, if I genuinely like it, I want them to know so they could feel good, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah, and I think we need more of that in the world, truly. And I think sometimes – I used to be very quiet, and I think it stemmed from this place of being really overly self-conscious and just so concerned about what every single person thought of me. And the minute I – I mean, not the minute, it obviously took so much time to get to the place where I can pay someone a compliment and not feel insecure or shy about it.Marissa Procelli: Yeah.Megan Gill: Because it also makes me feel good to genuinely give a compliment to somebody. It’s like, “Great!”Marissa Procelli: Yeah, like we're both doing this. Well, and also I say this too, a lot of times in classes I'm shopping in my head. I'm like, “That's a really cute outfit.” “Oh, I didn't know that brand came out with that.”Megan Gill: I bet. I love it.Marissa Procelli: There's a lot of moments where I'm like, “Wow. Yeah, that's a cute color. I like earthtones.” Yeah, so I do, I have really tried to shift to that.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. And I also think it's so cool to hear that you do come together with other teachers and do converse about it.Marissa Procelli: Yeah.Megan Gill: And I think that's also how we work to change the narrative in a community and in a space when multiple people are showing up with this new approach and this new vision for how it could be different. To then maybe change that one student's mind that day, or show them how it could be done differently.I know that like in my friend groups, a lot of times, all my friends at this point, now that I'm doing this a little bit more publicly, having these conversations and sharing them with the world, a lot of my friends know I'm the body image girlie. And so, they'll say something and be like, “Oh, well I know you probably don't approve of this!” And sometimes I'm like, “Okay, like let's be discerning.” There's the awareness there, but then there are times with certain people where I kind of do the same thing as you, and I allow that learning moment to be there and be like, “Hey, maybe we don't have to do that,” or a lot of times it's about themselves. They'll be putting themselves down.Marissa Procelli: Yes! It’s really hard, and you've heard me say it a bunch of times in classes. What's really hard about some of the classes is like multiple people can be showing up to a class and doing the same thing. Some people are doing it as a celebration of their bodies. Some people are doing it as a punishment. Some people are “rewarding themselves,” and that's one of the hardest things for me is that I want to facilitate a space where hopefully everyone is celebrating their bodies. But I do know, unfortunately because I have been that person, so that's why I know, is I have been the person that goes to class as a punishment. And so, that's why I bring it up so much because so many people are so hard on themselves, including myself. I am not perfect.Megan Gill: Me too.Marissa Procelli: There are ups and downs. It's not like I'm like, “Oh, now I'm super confident!” Last year, I got married, and that is one of the biggest – at least for me, my wedding dress – first off, just picking a dress. Not even me fitting into it, just like figuring out something I liked. I did one day with my core group of people, a lot of them were from out of town. I did a quick dress fitting because it's like that's what you're supposed to do. The rest of the time I went by myself because I didn't need – I was already in my head so much. I did not need outer opinions when I know, again, they're coming from a good place, but I knew it would not be healthy for me.Megan Gill: I think that's so important that you were able to be aware of that and take care of yourself in that way, almost as, “This isn't about anyone else. This is me. This is my day. This is my dress. This is how I feel.” And then I can imagine if you're not in the best mental space when you're trying it on and getting alterations and XYZ, then to be putting it on on the day, it's like only a precursor for how you’re gonna feel.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow.Marissa Procelli: You know, so I think definitely as a teacher, that's like the hard thing is knowing that there are people – it's okay that they're struggling. That's not necessarily what I'm saying, but knowing that some people are walking in and like being so harsh to themselves.Megan Gill: Yeah, especially because you teach Sculpt. At least at YogaSix you teach a lot of Sculpt and Flow.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, I teach a lot of Sculpt in general.Megan Gill: And even with Pilates too it’s a lot of – I love Sculpt and Flow, but I'm a big Hot girlie because I'm like, “Okay, I don't need the intensity.” I am in a very –Marissa Procelli: And you know what's coming. You know where you're going.Megan Gill: But also I'm in the place in my body image journey in my life where I am going to feel mentally well, to feel strong. I have muscles now that I did not have two years ago before I started!Marissa Procelli: We love that! We love muscles.Megan Gill: But I can imagine a lot of people coming into Sculpt are coming in with the mindset of like, “Okay, I need to be here in the most intense class. This is the class that I have to go to.”Marissa Procelli: Yes, exactly.Megan Gill: And sometimes it's maybe they don't have the best relationship with it because it's the one that's gonna kick their ass the most.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, or burn the most or whatever, yeah. Yeah!Megan Gill: But Slow Flow can be just as beneficial in different ways. I don't know the ins and outs, but you know.Marissa Procelli: Yeah! No, I mean, they are all – I always tell people, for example, with Slow Flow, I'm like, “Slow does not mean easy. It just means slow. They’re not synonymous.”Megan Gill: Slow Flow kicks my ass, I will say.Marissa Procelli: Yeah! So I think it's a very interesting line of figuring out, “Okay, how do I facilitate a space the way I want? Because I mean, for example, we're going into the summer months. I cannot stand when a fitness instructor or a movement teacher or whatever you wanna call yourself is like, “Let’s get ready for our summer bodies.” I'm like, “Oh my God. Get me out of this class.”Megan Gill: Same. Yes, no, same. It's quite cringe.Marissa Procelli: Yes!Megan Gill: And also so detrimental.Marissa Procelli: Yes, it's not helpful. Most likely people in there that are insecure are going to feel even more insecure right after that statement.Megan Gill: Right, because then also like what is a summer body? Eye roll!Marissa Procelli: Exactly, what does that even – ?Megan Gill: Like, what? Oh, so does that mean that my body – I've been there, again, myself. Like, “Right now my body is not a summer body? All the things that I'm feeling insecure about, I need to change? I need to fix?” When in reality, it's like, how do we look in the mirror – at least for us at YogaSix with the mirror – I imagine a lot of other studios have them too.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, a lot of studios do.Megan Gill: Yeah, it's like looking in the mirror and being able to embrace myself and embrace the things that I maybe don't love about myself innately, or that one thing I want to change, or whatever it is. And just have radical acceptance that it's part of me, and it's here with me, it's allowing me to move.. Oh my god, I'm here, I'm moving!Marissa Procelli: Yes! And that's why a lot of the times the intention that I use is, “This body is the one that got you through this class, not the one that you're looking for, if you are. This one just worked out. This one just moved. This one just worked. So enjoy this one.” But, you know, sometimes we're so pushed to look into the next thing to make our “goal.”Megan Gill: Well, I’m like, “What is that? What is that?” I truly don't believe that there's ever going to be a time that we are able to reach that end goal or that goal.Marissa Procelli: No.Megan Gill: Every time you get there to that arbitrary in place, there's something else. So why are we – for me, I'm like, “Why are we fighting it? Why can't we try to do more of the work?” Because the work is so hard, but yeah.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, a lot of us teachers, we do talk about it, and you know, like I said, there are a lot of teachers that feed into it. So it's kind of like finding the teachers that align with you.Megan Gill: To talk about it with, kind of? There have been instances for you then where you're like having these conversations with maybe a group of teachers and like people will disagree or?Marissa Procelli: I wouldn't disagree. I would say a lot of there have been moments where a teacher's talking badly about themselves.Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay, yes.Marissa Procelli: And you’re like, “Okay, this is stemming from something deeper.” But also sometimes you have to realize that you might not be the container that they need. And so, that's also a line to play into, is that you might not be the person that they want to hold space for them, or they just might not want to dive into it at all.Megan Gill: Oh, totally. And then that makes me just think of just how impactful it is then for you to be – the way you speak at the beginnings and ends of your classes to this room full of people or like 30-ish people, a lot of times, a lot of those people probably might not want you to be the person saying the stuff to them.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, a hundred percent.Megan Gill: But at the same time, on the flip side of the coin, I think it's so, so, so important that you are and that you're allowed that space to say those things, because as a student of yours and someone who's been in those spaces where the stuff you're saying really hits me and impacts me, I can only imagine how it's sitting with other people that really, really, really, really, really need to hear some of that stuff, you know?Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and there is. It always surprises me, the people that come up after class and say that something resonated with them because a lot of times it's the people that are quieter or that, you know, haven't really talked to me before or things like that. So that's always been really nice. I mean, all of it is great. Well, I shouldn't say all of it. Sometimes it's not great, but most of the time it is great.Megan Gill: Because then it opens up a door for those people that might not have even come up to say hello to at least then engage with you, which how cool is that?Marissa Procelli: Well, I remember I did talk about my wedding dress one time in class, and there were two other women that were on that were also getting married, and both of them who've never talked to me outside of class before were like, “Oh my god, I literally had this experience last week. I was just thinking about this.”Megan Gill: Ah, chills.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and I'm like, okay, you know, we're talking about it.Megan Gill: We're not alone!Marissa Procelli: Exactly. Yeah. So I think those are nice moments when people that you haven't really connected with one-on-one end up doing that.Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely. Agreed. So okay, you said before we started recording that a lot of times people will ask if you write down the magic that you say in class afterwards, and you said no. It's probably just in your body at this point, and your mind is geared towards speaking in these ways. But what do you pull from? What do you kind of try to implement when you are speaking?Marissa Procelli: Man, honestly, it could be the smallest to the biggest things. Sometimes an intention will literally come from a conversation I had right before class, and sometimes it'll be something that I've talked about for a few days. I am someone who very much uses my own life experiences. Not every teacher's like that. I also, because you are trying to – you know, there's a line in terms of when you're in a studio, and there's a lot of different walks of life in there. I will subtly talk about the climate of the world. I will try not to name it, but I will definitely allude to it.Megan Gill: Important also, in my opinion. So important.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and so, but a lot of times it's what I'm going through in that moment, or, it sounds silly, but it's almost like what I'm feeling in the room. And so, by that I mean sometimes the energy's really high. Sometimes it's low. Sometimes I see a lot of engagement with each other. Sometimes I see it's a little quieter. And so, I think that also plays into what I say. I am a bit of an oversharer, so I can get pretty deep pretty quick.Megan Gill: She’s open. She’s vulnerable.Marissa Procelli: I am. I am. I’m giving Cancer.Megan Gill: She's leaned in.Marissa Procelli: Yes, yes. And so, but with that, I've created so – like this! Because I've opened up, you feel comfortable asking about this. I can’t tell you, I've had so many students where I've created such a bond with them because of my vulnerability. So I feel like I'm just getting positive reinforcement. So I just keep doing it, even if those things are hard because, again, other people are going through hard things, and so, they just want to be seen.And, also too, I would like to think that I come from a space where I don't like being seen as a guru. I don't like being seen as on a pedestal. I really – maybe it's because I'm insecure, but I just don't like that dynamic.Megan Gill: I think that’s very fair. I don't like it either. I exist in a lot of spaces that are not structured that way, and I think it's really important.Marissa Procelli: Okay, thank you because it’s not my – that’s not the vibe I'm giving, right? So a lot of times I tell people I am sharing because I'm living life next to you, not because I'm living above you. It's because we are going through life side by side and trying to figure this out together. Not because I've gone through it and so I know exactly what it is.Megan Gill: And you should look to me because – and then I think that also puts the pressure on you and all of the sense to be this thing that –Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and I’m like, “No. I don't need that. I'm trying to figure out my own stuff.”Megan Gill: Like, “I'm trying to live just like you.”Marissa Procelli: Exactly, and just share so that way you feel open to share too. So yeah, I mean, long way to say that is just I pull in the moment a lot.Also, on a nerdy side of it, both of my parents are trial attorneys, and they came from very little, which I've mentioned before in classes. Both my parents were farm workers, and, you know, went through school and went through law school, and they both have their own firms and do a lot of great work. And so, with that, my dad was – well, I should say my dad and my mom, but my dad especially was like, “You will be public speakers,” to my brothers and I. Like, “You will feel confident to talk to a room.”And so, I don't think he was expecting me to take that to a yoga teacher lane. I definitely think that he wishes – not wishes. I think now he's like, “Great!” He actually just started doing yoga.Megan Gill: Oh, cool! I love it.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, so now he's excited about it, but I think before he was like, “You know, you could still be a lawyer,” which he would just tease. It was all teasing. But, you know, I feel comfortable public speaking. So that's why I'm a social butterfly, I'm a Cancer, and he took me to public speaking camp. He would send us to public speaking camp.Megan Gill: I love that. It’s honestly an incredible skill to have.28:07Marissa Procelli: It is. I mean, it's great to feel comfortable in front of a room, because that's the hardest part for a lot of teachers when they first go through teacher training. So it's just funny. So that's why I'm like, “Okay, I will tell you all.”Megan Gill: “Here's all of my stuff.”Marissa Procelli: Yeah.Megan Gill: I really do admire your vulnerability, and I do think that it's very needed, especially in our world today. And I know that it's not always the easiest route, like you were saying. But I think it's so important, and I'm just really, really grateful that you are so open and are an oversharer, because I think we need more of it. Your heart is open, it's clear. It’s clear to me. It's clear to a lot of people. It’s just really special.Marissa Procelli: Well, thank you! I am an extrovert, and so, I love getting energy collaborating with people. And what's been really great about the South Bay, at least from my experience, is that there's a lot of other people that are trying to do like this and trying to get the word out and be vulnerable. And there's a lot of spaces in this area that provide that because there are a lot of places that don't. And so, I feel very lucky to be in an area like this where I feel like I could have a positive impact without a bunch of people trying to –Megan Gill: Yeah, come after you, or what I presume to be like the LA side of it all, which is why I love being in the South Bay because it's like, sure, I'm still a part of the “entertainment industry” by nature, but I do really appreciate that it's this safe community down here.Marissa Procelli: Well, same thing with me. I'm a part of the fitness industry. I have to say that. That is true. And so, it does feel good to be around other teachers that are also trying to make this about longevity and feeling good versus aesthetics or all those other things that come along with it. Because the majority of teachers that I work with or get classes from or take classes from, provide that space. And that's wonderful because, like I said, a lot of places you'll walk in and be like, “All right, let's get that summer body!” And you're like, “No.”Megan Gill: “Nope, not for me.” And it's like once you see it, you cannot unsee it.Marissa Procelli: Yeah.Megan Gill: I will personally never do well with a leader like that or a space like that. It's just not gonna work for me at this point.Marissa Procelli: No, no! And it shouldn't, right?Megan Gill: And I'm really just so glad to hear that in your experience too, and with the people you're working alongside and the studios you're working at and taking class at, that your general experience is one of health and overall mental, physical wellness and wellbeing.Marissa Procelli: Yeah, and honestly I think too, because now I'm 31 – I was like, how old am I? I'm 31. And the different things that I'm working in my body is also something that I'm like, “Okay, I should still celebrate it.” It's that fine line.For example, yesterday, it was a big moment for me. I've been working on handstands a lot lately, and I have a handstand coach, and her name's Tracy and she's wonderful. And yesterday, she had me do wall taps where I'm literally upside down and like touching my hand and my shoulder, and I'm just like, “Wow, my body can do this. That's amazing!” And still making sure that we're celebrating those moments. Because I think sometimes people that don't want to get into body image are like, “Oh, so we can't say anything now?” And it's like, no, there's a difference. If a student gets their first crow pose, their first half moon, their first whatever it is, I'm like, Hell yeah! Celebrate that! Those are wins,” because I'm not saying, “Oh my gosh, what does your arm muscle look like in –,” I don't even – I can't even say it. But you know what I mean? It’s not like I'm like, “Oh, your butt looks good in that.” No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm like, “Wow, you have been working hard to get to this pose and get your body there, and that's amazing.”So I think a lot of times too, it's like I do want people to know, yes, it's great to celebrate other people's bodies, but in a way of what they're working and what they're accomplishing, not what they look like.Megan Gill: Totally. Yes.Marissa Procelli: Because we should still celebrate those moments, right?Megan Gill: No, absolutely. One hundred percent. And to me it's like more about – not to equate strength with the way your body looks at all. But it's appearance versus strength and mobility or…Marissa Procelli: Longevity. Yeah, one hundred percent because the way you look does not equate to what you can do.Megan Gill: Right. Literally. And we have to like separate that narrative and I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand that, that,Marissa Procelli: Yeah, Exactly.Megan Gill: And we have to separate that narrative, and I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand that, and that's also just like a big cultural issue, in general, of course. But yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!Marissa Procelli: And one, one thing I do want to mention, as a teacher, I like to put out there like. Because I mentioned earlier about the your body is your business card thing. I can teach things that I don't know how to do in my own body. I can prep you and get you all ready to go and work into the splits. Do I have my full splits? No, I do not. I also think that my hope is that for people to understand, as teachers, it's about our knowledge. It's about what we've studied. It's about how much work we put into creating either a flow or a playlist or a type of class. And a lot of people will, again, you'll come in and they'll just see what you look like and assess whether you could teach from that.I know some teachers that look really good, but I have taken classes and they feel – they do not equate to what their bodies look like, which they shouldn't. And I've seen a lot of people that can't bench however many pounds, but can teach someone how to properly bench something, if that makes sense.Megan Gill: Yes, that makes sense.Marissa Procelli: So I think my hope too with this, and just people listening or reading, is that just because your teacher cannot get into a shape does not mean that your teacher does not know how to prep you or get you into that shape. And it's based on their knowledge and their education and how much work they've put into it, not if they can do it necessarily. Because, like with my arthritis, my left leg cannot go fully straight. It does not have that ability. I don't know if it will ever come back. So even if I opened up to a splits, I will not, by definition, be able to do the splits ever, and that's okay. But I think my hope is that people start to see the teacher as what they teach and not what they can do in their own practice.Megan Gill: Yeah. Mic drop right there, truly. Thank you so much for chatting with me, Mar. I think that's so important, truly so important. Oh my god. I cannot stress it enough. SeriouslyMarissa Procelli: Thanks! And thanks for thinking of me with all of this. I mean, it's always a nice reminder for myself too because, you know, we have so many things going on, and sometimes we forget, for me, the goal, and when I say goal, I mean just creating a safe space for students and letting them learn about themselves rather than try and change it, you know?“  That's why a lot of the times the intention that I use is, ‘This body is the one that got you through this class. Not the one that you're looking for, if you are. This one just worked out. This one just moved. This one just worked. So enjoy this one.’ But sometimes we're so pushed to look into the next thing to make our ‘goal.’”- Marissa ProcelliMarissa (Rodriguez) Procelli started her yoga journey back in 2016 when she first moved to Los Angeles after completing her Bachelors in Public Health at the University of Arizona. This native Californian grew up in the central valley where sports were a way of life, which meant movement was a way of life.Mar grew up with a bit of a disadvantage when it came to sports as she was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis at the age of two. However, this did not stop her from playing volleyball, basketball, swim, and water polo.When she attended college it was the first time she had never been on a sports team, but she wanted to continue to learn about the physical body and how to maintain a healthy lifestyle. She worked as an assistant athletic trainer for the Arizona football team and spearheaded their injury prevention program called Fusionectics to reduce the likelihood of injuries for their football players.When she moved to Los Angeles she started a job as a behavior therapist where she provided in home services to people living with social disabilities such as autism, Williams syndrome, and the like. This job led to a lot of emotional stress causing flare-ups in her arthritis. Yoga became her outlet, her safe space, and a way to move through the obstacles going on at work.After practicing religiously, she enrolled in the 200 Power Teacher Training at SoHo Yoga not anticipating becoming a teacher, but just to dive into the practice more. Five years later, she has completed over 2,500 teaching hours, completed her barre certification, pilates certification, kids yoga certification, and is a 500 E-RYT, YACEP.Mar realized that she spent most of her life numbing her body to stay away from negative symptoms; the aches, the stiffness, the pain. But in addition to masking the symptoms she lost connection with her body. She was telling her sensations to turn off rather than letting it process through. With yoga, she has started a long journey of repairing that connection and understanding that there will be obstacles and triumphs along the way. She hopes she can be a guide to do the same for you.Follow Mar on Instagram!If you’re a big reader, follow Mar’s Book Instagram!Take class with Mar at YogaSix - you’ll love the music! (I can atttest)Take class with Mar at Soho Yoga!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my newer friend and fellow actor Asher Phoenix to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Asher and I met through a dear friend (hi, Kate Stoss), and I’m so beyond grateful for our discussion about body image. In our conversation, we discovered we both work through the Internal Family Systems modality in our own therapy sessions, and Asher speaks on how some parts of themself (like their eating disorder) are not enemies but simply broken friends, and how much of a better world we’d live in if we could view those in the world around us that are hurting in this way too. The way Asher speaks to empowering their trans subjects in their photography work is chef’s kiss, and they have so many important nuggets of wisdom on how we can do better for the trans community in the arts.Asher is an actor and photographer currently based in Kansas. Their passion is portraiture for trans people and they focus on helping trans people embrace their bodies in front of a camera, which I truly believe is insanely impactful work. Keep an eye out for their future work in clinical psychology - I cannot wait to see where Asher’s future work leads them! Asher shares their story with such generosity and compassion, and I really cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!Spoiler alert: if you have not seen “The Civility of Albert Cashier,” Asher does spill how the musical ends (for good reason)“I really am most passionate about doing portrait shoots where the subject is not comfortable in their skin and very clearly needs guidance into being comfortable in front of the camera. And I've had the honor of doing body neutrality practices with my clients where they come to me and they're like, “I don't like the way I look, but I trust you to make something out of this.” And then I'll lead them through a guided meditation-type thing where I'm just like, “Name the part of the body that brings you the most insecurity, and tell me something neutral about it. Tell me what its function is.” And so, for me, I guess an example of this for me would be I am insecure about my hands, which are very strategically tattooed. But they hold my camera, and that's – the coolest thing is that they serve a purpose and a function for me every single day creatively, and I am grateful for that.“- Asher PhoenixMegan Gill: I would just love to learn a little bit more about your lens and where you're coming from the artistic, creative perspective as well.Asher Phoenix: Yeah, totally. I, so as far as theater goes, I have been doing it since I was, like, seven years old. I grew up begging to play boys’ roles, and my parents still had no idea I was trans. But I guess most notably I played Randolph McAfee in Bye Bye Birdie. And it was the first time I had ever had to bind my chest for a role, and that was at Friends University my freshman year. And I just remember the costuming designer profusely apologizing as she handed me a binder and I put it on and was like, “Whoa, this is me. This is cool. Yeah.”And then I insisted that it was more logistically sound to wear boxers with my costume so that I had something sturdy for the mic pack to hold onto. But really I was just taking a deep dive into exploring gender. And I don't know, that role really opened up my entire world as far as gender expression and coming out as trans goes.And a few months after that, I went to Chicago to see The Civility of Albert Cashier, their initial run. For those listening who don't know what Albert Cashier is, it's a musical about a transgender Civil War veteran who was found out once he was placed in a nursing care facility, and had his pension taken away, had to go on trial ultimately just for being trans. And, spoiler alert, he ended up dying because he was forced into a dress and tripped on the dress, fell, and went into cardiac arrest.Megan Gill: Oh, my.Asher Phoenix: And he was a real person. His grave is a four-, or five-hour drive from where I'm staying now. So I really wanna make it up there just to pay respects to a Civil War veteran who literally changed my whole life and will continue to do so if Albert continues to get the stage time that it deserves.But professionally, I pivoted when I left college my sophomore year to pursue photography, music photography, concert photography. But I really am most passionate about doing portrait shoots where the subject is not comfortable in their skin and very clearly needs guidance into being comfortable in front of the camera. And I've had the honor of doing body neutrality practices with my clients where they come to me and they're like, “I don't like the way I look, but I trust you to make something out of this.” And then I'll lead them through a guided meditation-type thing where I'm just like, “Name the part of the body that brings you the most insecurity and tell me something neutral about it. Tell me what its function is.”And so, for me, I guess an example of this for me would be I am insecure about my hands, which are very strategically tattooed. But they hold my camera, and that's the coolest thing is that they serve a purpose and a function for me every single day creatively, and I am grateful for that.Megan Gill: Yeah, that’s beautiful.Asher Phoenix: This last August, I had the pleasure of doing media and photography work for The Civility of Albert Cashier's run in Los Angeles, and it was like the first fully produced and costumed – and even the script was rewritten a little bit because there was, arguably, some trans trauma porn that happened in the original where they showed Albert's death, and it just wasn't necessary. It hit, but it was hard to watch in a way that it shouldn't be for trans people. And so, they rewrote the ending to just give a narrative of what happened in his last years, which I think props to Jay and Keaton and Joe for coming up with the new finale that they did because it was incredible. But yeah, I got to do photography work for that and write a little writeup about my story and how The Civility of Albert Cashier has impacted my story for LA Times, which is, like, the greatest honor.Truly, I consider myself a multifaceted artist. I love writing, I love photography, but I also still really enjoy performing. Just navigating a medical transition with being on stage has been difficult because I went through a good two years where I just couldn't sing, and it was so sad. But it comes back eventually. It just is a major waiting process, and that sucked for the time being. But I'm grateful to have found my voice again.I actually just recently – my college choir director had her last concert at Friends University and invited alumni to come back and sing a couple songs, and I got to learn the tenor part and sing with my new voice, and it was a lot of fun.Megan Gill: Ah, that's amazing. That's powerful. I’m glad you had that opportunity, especially at a place like your college –Asher Phoenix: Me too.Megan Gill: – a place that you have ties to that you've previously studied at. Oh, that's so great. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. There are so many things to talk about!I just think it's really cool and impactful that you had the opportunity to take photography of this musical that had such an impact on you. I’m not sure how many years prior you first saw it?Asher Phoenix: Nine years. Eight years? Something like that.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, wow! Okay, either way that really hits that eight, nine years later you got to come back and capture this piece through a different creative lens. I just think that's so powerful, and I'm so glad that you had that opportunity, and I hope that you get to do more – I hope that you get to follow the show as it's produced elsewhere because it needs to be produced elsewhere, like you were saying.I was reading up on the Jagged Little Pill – what happened with that musical as far as the casting goes, because I wasn't super familiar myself until you had mentioned it to me. So I went on a little bit of a deep dive. And just reading about how many non-binary and trans characters there actually are written into musicals is really not okay and truly just not reflective of our world. Yeah, I would love to talk a little bit more about that and about your experience watching on as this huge Broadway musical decided to just completely rewrite this non-binary character into a cis female character, and the harm that was done by a cis female actor even being cast in the role in the first place.Asher Phoenix: Yeah. Yeah, that was a major blow. I grew up listening to Alanis, and I love her, and like she's been such a Madonna for the queer community, such a fierce advocate. And then she goes on to be part of the making of the script for Jagged Little Pill, and expectations for other people get us nowhere in life. But I guess I just had this expectation that – I don't know, a hope that she would be more fierce of an advocate for keeping that role as non-binary.I have to give Lauren Patton, I think, credit because it was actually a big wake up for them as far as gender goes. But trans roles are not there for cis people to realize that they're trans. Trans roles are there for trans people to be cast as them from the get-go.Megan Gill: Amen.Asher Phoenix: And I'm so glad that Lauren is now on their own gender diversity exploration process, whatever. I just think that if I were in her shoes as someone who thought they were cis, I would not have even auditioned for that role because it's not for you. Yeah. Yeah.Megan Gill: Right. Oh, I was gonna say, as a cis female, I, where I stand now as an actor, would not for one second audition. Now, back when I was in college and specifically in college when a bunch of my best friends around me were queer, I remember having the thought of, “Oh, it would be so cool to play a queer character and get to explore that.” Obviously, I know now and have known for many years now that is just not appropriate and that those characters and those roles are written for queer people, not for I.So I think that was a really important thing that I had the pleasure of learning as well so that I can sit here today and be like, “Yeah, no,” and advocate for the queer community, and to educate the cis females and males of the land. “Okay, that's not for you.” As the actor, you have a right – I have a right to email my agent and say, “Hi, actually, I don't feel comfortable auditioning for queer characters because I am not.”Asher Phoenix: Absolutely.Megan Gill: And I just wonder how many actors are actually taking it upon themselves to do that in an industry that, especially right now, is so bleak and is the industry that's just so slow. And I know that there's a lot of desperation for actors to be like, “I just wanna get cast. I don't care!” or “I want to explore. I want to play this character.” But I think we really just have to continue – we as in me, a cis het female – to be like, “No, that's not for you.” I feel like that's on us to educate and not on the queer community, if that makes sense as well.Asher Phoenix: 100%.Megan Gill: It shouldn't be your emotional labor to carry.Asher Phoenix: Respect. No, 100%. When I think of this, I don't know, like cis people queer baiting and queer roles, god bless them. I think of Darren (Criss) because he played Blaine in Glee. He was hands down one of my biggest childhood heroes. But then once I gained the maturity to realize, “Oh, maybe he shouldn't have played Blaine, or maybe he shouldn't have played Hedwig,” I don't know. I think that he's just taking space from people who deserve to be uplifted for their actual identity. And while he has come forward and been like, “I don't think I should have played Blaine,” he continued on to play Hedwig and that was just like –Megan Gill: Oh, wow.Asher Phoenix: I don't know. He's used his platform for good, as far as advocating for the queer community goes but even seeing him as a red-carpet guest at Pride in 2021, I was just like, “Darren, what are you doing?” Not that cis, het people aren't allowed at Pride, but why am I taking red carpet photos of a cis het person at Out Loud Pride? Like what?Megan Gill: This is not the space for you to be leading, almost, is what it feels like to me. Step aside, let somebody else lead, take headway in this space.Asher Phoenix: Yeah. But it's a learning and growing process, and I think that he has done the best he can with what he knows and what society has presented to him as far as wanting to pioneer the queer acting scene. Yeah, definitely just doing the best he can with what he has. I don't wanna slam him or anything.Megan Gill: Yeah, I appreciate the amount of compassion that you have in speaking about these people. I think that’s also really noteworthy because it's so easy for me also to be – I’m so quick to be judgmental, but I've just been challenging myself lately to have a little bit more compassion for these people because we really are all just trying to do our best. And as long as people are open to education and open to learning and open to trying to do better, I think that's really important. So I just really think it's lovely how you are speaking so compassionately about these people that – I guess we all fuck up from time to time.Asher Phoenix: One hundred percent. I think I took the Alanis thing really personally because one of my best friends originally auditioned for one of the original readings where Jo was still non-binary, and this friend is non-binary, trans masculine. And I just, I don't know, I felt like their space was being taken away from them. But then in discussing it with them, they were just like, “Alanis is doing the best she can with what she has,” and I credit this friend for a lot of my worldview on, I guess just not even anti-trans, but just cis hiccups in the entertainment industry, because they came to me and they were like, “I think Lauren is incredible in the role,” and while the role absolutely should have stayed non-binary, they said that they were grateful that Lauren is now on their own path to self-discovery because of the role. And I don't know, that helps me be a little less bitter about it.Megan Gill: Oh, for sure. And my heart, just even hearing you share that, because I don't blame you. I think I would have a very similar energy if that were my close friend as well, or just even for your friend, I'm like, “Ugh,” and feeling for them as well. But ugh, gosh, if we could all like, take a page out of their book and now your book, too, to be able to lead from that instead of just, “You're wrong,” judgment, judgment here, there, and everywhere, it’s like, wow, wouldn’t we have much lovelier world, and not that that's again, yours to take on or to lead, but of course that's the lens through which they're viewing these things and like these adversities. Of course, is all I can think.Asher Phoenix: Yeah, I think that we as trans people almost have to take on this fight from a very compassionate lens because if we come out of the woodwork kicking and screaming, the people who are most against us, we have no match against them because they're gonna come back kicking and screaming. Whereas, if I'm able to offer the perspective of having compassion for Darren or Alanis, then I feel like people who are so adamantly against just trans existence might have more likelihood that they are willing to come at it from a compassionate lens. I think hurt people hurt people, and free people free people. And if I am putting my hurt out there and trying to hurt the people who are against me, it gets us nowhere.Megan Gill: I fully agree with you.Asher Phoenix: I think cis people witnessing emotional freedom and maturity from trans people is really the only shot we have at unifying.Megan Gill: Which I'm like, ugh, the fact that it has to be that way is hard, I think.Asher Phoenix: Yeah.Megan Gill: It is unfortunate that you feel like that is the only route, and that obviously hurts my heart, and I wish that it were not like that, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But I also hear you and understand why that is the route that you take, yeah. Oh, gosh, thank you for sharing all of that.Asher Phoenix: Yeah, totally.Megan Gill: I really appreciate it.Asher Phoenix: I think that trying to almost foster viewing the far right as just broken friends is very similar to my path towards healing eating disorder stuff, because I know that is also part of this conversation.Megan Gill: Yeah.Asher Phoenix: My eating disorder used to be my absolute worst enemy. I hated it. I hated the fact that I couldn't just sit down and have a meal. I hated what it wanted me to do to my body and in my relationship with food. And then once I was able to look at it through the lens of, “No, this is just a part of me that's doing the best it can with what it knows,” that was a big turning point for me, just making friends with the darker parts of myself instead of fighting them constantly.Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow, that's a really lovely way to put that. I have never heard it phrased in that sense before. But I think it's, again, just so wonderful that we can relate that to so many different things. It's so fucking hard to think that people that want such harm for others and for the world and for all of these things, could potentially be just broken friends in the way that an eating disorder is something that disrupts your life and is horrific and makes you do horrible things to yourself and your body, could potentially just be like a hurt, broken friend. But I think that more of us need to adopt that mentality of approaching these things, like you said, from that lens as well.Oh, my gosh. I'm just sitting with this all right now, and it's all hitting me, and it's just really powerful and really beautiful, and I'm just so glad that adopting that mentality – obviously, I'm sure that it took a while to get there. I can only imagine, but I'm really grateful that you were able to get there and you were able to see it in that way.Do you still have that type of a relationship with your relationship to food and your body when those things do pop up? Seeing it as a broken friend that you need to hold their hand, tend to, maybe ask a question, see what's going on, to acknowledge its presence and its existence and that it's clearly looking for attention I think is what I'm getting from this concept of broken friend.?Asher Phoenix: Yeah, I definitely still – when it does pop up, because I have three and a half years abstinent from purging and in recovery from my eating disorder. But when the little voices pop up, I'm just like, “Okay, what's underneath this? What are they trying to protect me from? What do I not wanna feel right now?”I've done a lot of therapy work on my eating disorder through the lens of Internal Family Systems, which is just this model of –Megan Gill: Stop, wait, I’m so sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I shouldn't have interrupted you! But I also am in therapy and work with Internal Family Systems.Asher Phoenix: Yes, we love to see it!Megan Gill: Sorry, I just had to make that note!Asher Phoenix: No, it's totally okay. Not very many people know the difference between Family Systems and Internal Family Systems, so I love that. I don't even have to explain that to you. But yeah, this idea of all of these different parts of us being like protectors and firefighters and managers of negative coping mechanisms, I think, is such a healing way to be able to really lean into my authentic self.Yeah, I think just extending compassion to the negative coping skills is the biggest part of recovery for me because being able to extend compassion to such negative parts of myself makes it so much easier to extend the same compassion to A) other people, but my authentic self and just embracing who I am, not in spite of these parts, but because of these parts.Megan Gill: Yeah. And that who you are and the way that you view the world and the way that you view your art and other people's art is almost like a culmination of, sure, joy of course, but also pain and dark experiences and things that hurt our heart and force us to are the catalyst for the reason that we're even artists in the first place. That's really lovely, and I think that's just a nice reminder to have because no one gets out of life unscathed, of course, and we all have our exiled parts and those parts of us that are deeply wounded, and we do need to sit with and hold their hand to give them a hug from time to time.And then also just thinking of the way in which you so beautifully and shared that you also, then, doing that for yourself can open you up to extend that hand to others. If that isn't humanity and the beauty of being a creative and telling these important stories, what is?Asher Phoenix: Absolutely. I am a huge believer that like anyone and everyone should go to therapy at some point in their life if it's accessible. I acknowledge that, In the current state of this country, mental health care is a luxury, and it should not be a luxury. But for those who can afford it, we absolutely need to utilize it. Because if we all looked at our literal exiles, not just the parts of us, but the minorities who have been marginalized and exiled as being able to view their behavior as a result of our oppression, it would be such a game changer.Megan Gill: Wow. Yeah, that is a word for sure. It could change everything. Imagine that.Asher Phoenix: Yeah, I think of riots and what happened in LA in 2020, and it's just a marginalized community being traumatized and having a trauma response. Fight is a trauma response. It's so sad when people get caught up on the semantics of the behavior and aren't willing to look at the motivation behind it.Megan Gill: And track it back to cause and to look at all of the systemic issues that are even causing it in the first place, yeah.Asher Phoenix: Yeah.Megan Gill: I think that's really important, yeah. Ooh, I'm curious – sorry, I just have a couple things swirling in my brain and I was like, “Which way do I wanna go with this? What do I wanna ask you about?”I'm curious if you would be interested in sharing a little bit more about the way in which you work with your subjects and your models when you are behind the camera. I loved the piece that you said about that you specifically seek to work with people who maybe don't feel super comfortable in their skin or in front of a lens or just being a “model,” or all these different things that could pop up for us. I think it's really wonderful that you are doing what you do and that you are there to be a safe space for these people. I’ve been there. As much as I'm in front of the camera and people are like, “Oh, you're a natural!” I'm like, “Yeah, but you don't know what's going on beneath the surface.” I just think it's really important that you're doing that work.So I would love if you would be interested in sharing a little bit more about your approach to that and how you really come at it with a body neutrality lens as well.Asher Phoenix: Yeah, absolutely. When I think of the subjects that I'm most passionate about, it's definitely those trans people who experience dysphoria so severely that they just won't have photos taken of them. The motivation for that stems from losing my trans partner in 2021 to an overdose, and we had literally one photo together. And she just never let me take photos, and I was still in the space of not being on testosterone and not having had top surgery yet. And so, I was just like, I don't want photos either. And that is one of my biggest regrets. I wish that I had tangible memories of her, but both of our dysphorias were so severe that it just wasn't possible.And so, I think that I come at portraiture for trans people from the lens of let's work with what we've got and uplift that in whatever way possible. I think that there's this unset expectation for trans people to pass and for all trans people to pursue medical transition, and for some of us that's not attainable, whether it be financial resources, insurance, or just I think of one of my really good friends who has not medically transitioned and does not plan to and is completely and totally sound in their skin. And I think that is so beautiful. I don't have that expectation for every trans person because, yes, dysphoria does get so bad that surgery is medically necessary, mentally necessary, suicide prevention, honestly. But I also think that suicide prevention for trans people is modeling to them that they are okay to exist and be uplifted exactly as they are in that moment.I got top surgery in 2020, and it opened so many doors for me, just mentally and professionally, because I was finally so at home in my own skin that I was okay with sharing myself and art with the world. And also I so wish that I would've had someone to be like, “It's okay that you have a bigger chest and identify as a masculine person.” I still would've pursued top surgery, but I think that it would've given me a lot more self-compassion in the process of doing that. And so, when I get a trans person, whether they're pre- or post-op, pre-hormones, never going on hormones, whatever, I just encourage them to find their home where they're at and meet themselves where they're at and be able to be okay with being captured exactly as they are.Megan Gill: That's really beautiful. Thank you, and I am so sorry for your loss, and I appreciate you being open and vulnerable and sharing that. And I'm just so glad that you are behind the camera and that you are singing again, but no, mostly that you're just this space for trans people to come and to show up exactly as they are. I think that is really needed and, from what you've shared, really important and impactful. And I'm just really glad that you are doing what you're doing.Asher Phoenix: Thank you. Yeah, it's so important to just meet, not even just trans people, but everyone where they're at. But also part of my mission in clinical work, because I'm pursuing degrees in psychology and in clinical psychology.Megan Gill: Exciting!Asher Phoenix: Yeah! My end goal is to create a detox slash transitional facility for trans people who are discharging from the hospital after surgery, because for a lot of trans people, surgery isn't accessible solely because they don't have the familial support for recovery afterwards. And so, I want to create a resource where the trans person who has been completely outcasted by their family and does not have anyone to take care of them after surgery, has someone that they can depend on to manage their meds and help reach things that they can't reach. It's such a novel idea for me because this resource should already exist. But I'm excited to be on the path to creating that.Megan Gill: Oh, I'm so thrilled for you. Truly. I’m with you. It should exist, absolutely. But sometimes these things that are so needed, just don't. This is yours to take on and a space for you to create, and oh, my god! I'm so excited for you and for all of the people that you're going to help.Ugh, and I'm just so overwhelmed and excited for you because I think sometimes it also takes us through these dark times and these really tough things to light the path towards our life's work and the ways in which we want to give back and help others and be the resource that we wish we had. And I love that you are just trusting that journey and like following that call and going to do the damn thing, and I think it's fucking admirable, and I cannot wait to see where you are in a couple years or, no timeline, but like in the future.Asher Phoenix: Totally. Thank you. As an artist, I'm sure you resonate with the fact that creating is literally converting dark into light. It's taking the shit that life has handed us and creating something not shit out of it. Literally two months after my partner died, I shot my first Pride festival, and I had never even been to Pride before because I am anxious and hate crowds. She died and didn't have any photos of her, and then two months later I'm standing onstage taking photos of Kim Petras, and it was just the most incredible experience for me.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh. I love that. And truly the sentiment of turning the shit into beauty is so true, and I love that it seems that you have taken that and ran with it and live your life in that way because I think it's so easy sometimes for humans to just sit in the shit and sulk in the shit and just let the shit rule the show, instead of taking the shit and alchemizing it into something even bigger and more impactful because partner did not have photos, you're going and taking the photos. It's just so beautiful and just such a good lesson, I think, for especially people that maybe aren't creatives, because I think it's just easier for us to take the dark things and turn them into light. It’s just a good reminder, I think, to keep that in the back of our minds at all times.Asher Phoenix: Totally.Megan Gill: Okay, I do have one question for you, and I know this might be a bit of a loaded question and not have one solid answer, but I'm just curious about what you think the next right step is. If this greater overarching industry of Hollywood, Broadway, the performance world where we're highlighting people in stories at such a large scale, if there was one right next step that they could take for the trans community and the non-binary community and the queer community in general – I know that's very broad. Maybe even just the trans community. I don't know how you wanna answer it. But is there something that comes to mind for you, or something of that nature? I would just be curious to know.Asher Phoenix: I think the next right step is to just lean into taking people exactly as they are and writing their stories and letting them fit into the classics. I don't know, the person who played Elphaba in the new Wicked is now like in some, I don't know if it's Technicolor Dreamcoat or Jesus Christ Superstar, but there's some revival happening where they're genderbending it, and I think that is the most beautiful thing. And I think, yes, characters obviously have molds that people who can fit into those molds, they're the ones who audition for it. But I also think that making those molds a little more malleable and adaptable to people's identities and truths is really important.Megan Gill: Mic drop right there. Yep, I love that, and I am right there with you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Asher. I so appreciate you having this chat with me and sharing about your story and your work and your perspective!Asher Phoenix: Totally! It honestly is my pleasure. I was telling one of my friends earlier today how excited I was to do this, so grateful to just be given another platform to bring awareness to things that matter.“ I think the next right step is to just lean into taking people exactly as they are and writing their stories and letting them fit into the classics. The person who played Elphaba in the new “Wicked” is now in some, I don't know if it's “Technicolor Dreamcoat” or “Jesus Christ Superstar,” but there's some revival happening where they're gender-bending it, and I think that is the most beautiful thing. And I think characters obviously have molds that people who can fit into those molds, they're the ones who audition for it. But I also think that making those molds a little more malleable and adaptable to people's identities and truths is really important.”- Asher PhoenixAsher is a Los Angeles-based photographer, using their work to provide a space for others to shine – and heal. After photographing their first wedding at the age of 15, they have found great joy in watching clients light up on camera for over a decade since.Adversities faced as a transgender person raised in conservative central Kansas have given Asher an artistic perspective – and world view – based on love, acceptance, and empowerment. Following a 14-year battle with anorexia, they directly understand the importance of ensuring subjects feel comfortable in their bodies. The overwhelming desire is to provide a safe haven for gender-diverse people, while creating space for body-neutral philosophies.Connect with Asher on InstagramAsher’s LA Times Article: “I drove 12 hours to see a stage musical about a Civil War veteran. It saved my life”Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my college friend and fellow creative Ashley Justice to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Ashley and I went to Wichita State University together circa 2010-2014-ish, and this girl knows the body!!! She was in the dance department, and I was in the musical theatre department. Ashley is an insanely talented dancer and choreographer, and I had the pleasure of taking many a dance class alongside her.Ashley is one of the first people who opened up to me about her experience in our college program when I was crowdfunding for “A Broadway Body” back in 2021. She shared what she’d gone through during our time in college, and I opened up about my experiences and those of friends of mine, and I knew I had to create the film to expose what goes on behind the closed doors of collegiate dance, theatre, and musical theatre programs.Ashley is a dancer, choreographer, SLT instructor, and barre instructor in New York City. She’s found her own community of advocates for her work in NYC, but that hasn’t come without its share of emotional labor. Ashley’s lens on having to carry the burden of being a dancer in a societally unconventional “dancer body” is extremely important and nuanced in a culture that lumps certain body types with certain professions. I hope you walk away changed after hearing Ashley’s story!“ I've been told more than once that I have like a Black girl body, right? And that is racist. Not that it's racist to me, right. It's racist to Black people and to Black women, and also depending on who it's coming from it’s an insult, right? And it doesn't insult me. I don't feel any insult being compared to Black women at all. But if it's coming from a white person, I know that that's an insult, right? It's a microaggression, and it's not a microaggression — I mean, I guess it's a microaggression to me, but it's a microaggression of putting Black people beneath you and then putting me in that category with Black people that are underneath you. So that's a whole other layer that I've talked about with friends and with people, and it's why, in dance, the people that've encouraged me the most are usually people of color. White people in dance are genuinely not my advocates. I don't try to have them be my advocates, and I don't seek out people of color for that. The people that have become closer, given me opportunities, or taken the time to ask me what I want have always been people of color and never white people.“- Ashley Justice Ashley Justice: I turned 27 in February of 2020. I feel like I was robbed of my late twenties where I was feeling finely grounded and then the world said, “Ha ha ha!”Megan Gill: “JK , LOL.” We are reclaiming those years.Ashley Justice: Yeah. Oh, but speaking of that, I feel like that was such an interesting time mentally. I mean, I probably told you that I had a really severe ED pretty much my whole life. But that was such an interesting time where I knew it was flaring up, or that the thoughts or the anxiety around it was flaring up, because as soon as I stopped being active in my New York life, I was like, “Oh my God, I'm not gonna be able to do anything. Everything's gonna change, da, da, da.” And I was like, “Okay.” I remember having to tell myself, “You're going to gain weight and it's fine.”That did happen, but I remember having to coach myself through it because, “There's just no way you can be as physically active as you were.” I didn't have access to a real gym, so I couldn't really lift weights or anything. And I also didn't want to go into hyper –Megan Gill: – force yourself to do something that you genuinely don't want to do.Ashley Justice: And I remember that was a really big moment because I was like, “Oh shit.Like I really have to sit with this.”Megan Gill: And do the hard – to me, like the easy out would be that we're gonna just fall back into old patterns, we're gonna just do what we've always known instead of approaching the challenging path of – wow, how aware of you to be able to be holding your own hand like, “It's gonna be okay.”Ashley Justice: Yeah, because I was like, I could hyper control everything I eat and really restrict because that would make the most sense to go from being really active and not having to think about it as much to only thinking about what I'm consuming, but that's the big issue that I had anyway, right? So I was like, “Oh crap.”And I wasn't in a healthy enough space to be like, “Well, some of that's valid.” If you're removed from ED brain, a normal thing to do would be to modify your intake with what you're doing in a day.Megan Gill: Yeah, from a “fitness” perspective, “nutrition” perspective.Ashley Justice: Yeah, your activity decreases, so your intake of calories should decrease. But it was such a stark change. It literally went from a full life –Megan Gill: Like night and day, and not to mention the state of the world, which then, at least for me in my experience, put my mental health at like an – it really tested me mentally.Ashley Justice: Same.Megan Gill: And with anxiety and everything.Ashley Justice: And a big thing that triggers my ED is control, right? And the state of the world, we couldn't control it. So the pattern, or the “easy” thing for me to do would've been to go right back into that. That's how I felt in control, just everything I eat, make sure that – and I was like, “I'm releasing that because I genuinely can't control any of this,” and the idea of trying to manage this in this time of uncertainty was like so much. So I had to release it, and it's been a thing because my body really did change from that point.So that's something that I'm still managing being like, “Okay, it was a big change that happened over those couple years.” That was a challenge for sure.Because you go from, I had just turned 27, I had just moved to New York. I was in the depths of having all these dreams and really trying to navigate that. And then it was all kind of ripped, and it was a big challenge for my body image. It was hard.And then coming back to all of it, post that, I mean, I feel like no one talks about we just started doing capitalism again like it was a normal thing to do.Megan Gill: Wait, what? Like, “What is all of this again? It's been a year,” or however long. I don't know how long – lockdown lasted for quite some time. But I feel like the ease back into like, what is this normalcy – when are gym's opening? When are we able to go outside again and be back in public?Ashley Justice: Well, and it was like I was working in a restaurant and doing group fitness. Everything was just – all of my normalcy was ripped away.Megan Gill: How long, can I ask, were you away from that pre-COVID life? How long would lockdown have lasted for you?Ashley Justice: I think what happened was March happened, everything shut down. That was the middle of March. I lasted about three weeks in this apartment before I went to New Orleans to go home with my family. I was like, “I can't be in this apartment anymore.”And so, I was there until I think maybe May or June. So a few months – March, April, May, June, so a few months. Because then it became summer and we started doing these outdoor classes and things were like a little bit more. And then I think August or so hit and I went back to New Orleans.Megan Gill: Yeah, which also disrupts any semblance of normalcy that we're trying to create or like a daily flow.Ashley Justice: Yeah, routine or something to do. And being able to teach was far and in between. They had kind of reduced us. They had a few people teaching online, like Zoom classes. But I was a brand new instructor. I think I had gotten certified in February of 2020. And so, everything that I was working towards had been very much ripped away from me. And I was just trying to hold onto it a little. I could have easily just been like, “Oh, fuck, whatever,” but I didn't wanna do that because I had hindsight. I was like, “No, when it reopens, I wanna be able to come back to it. I worked too hard to have it in New York to not do it.”So I really had tried to dig my feet in, but, you know, it was very tumultuous for a time. My niece's mom also passed at that point though. And so, it was a weird time. So I remember that being August and me being like, “I think I just have to –,” and like the classes weren't really – it was turning into fall. Outdoors, the thing that was allowing us to do it was coming to an end. So all of that was kind of just like in the air. So I was like, “I'm just gonna go home until whenever.”And I think I was home for – I was obviously paying my rent and my stuff was here, but I was laid off from my restaurant. I was laid off from my fitness job, so neither one was operating. And then eventually Landry’s sold our restaurant, so it was like, okay, that's not reopening.So I stayed. I stayed until Barre3 was like, “Hey, what's the –,” I mean, I got my first vaccine in New Orleans. I was there for like a while, which was nice because I was with my family and my sister lives in Houston, so I was going back and forth to Houston some of the times. And yeah, my niece was born in February of 2020. So it was my sister's first baby, so there was a lot going on that was kind of nice to be home for a little bit. So I just spent a lot of time with my best friend and my family for a while. And that was nice because I wasn't working.But while I was teaching, I would sub dance. I was subbing at Barre3 in New Orleans because I was like, “No, I'm gonna keep doing it. You guys can't tell me that I am not teaching,” so I picked up classes there, and I was teaching in person and on Zoom, so I was like, “You guys can't tell me that,” because New Orleans was a little different. You had to wear a mask, and I think it was maybe seven people or whatever. So it was in person and they were doing it on Zoom, so people could come in, and they were in person too.So I was doing that, and I was working the front desk some days. So I was doing some stuff, trying to do the things that I would hopefully do here when I came back. That's just kind of how I kept myself going because I had gotten certified. Like, “I'm doing this!” And it's funny now because now I've been doing this for a long time, and that's what I was gonna say earlier when you were like, “Let's record!”It's weird because I worked so hard for this to be a part of my career, right? And it used to be something that I love to do for fun, and now I'm like it's work. Now it's just work, and it's an interesting thing because I'm like, I don't teach dance, really, because I was getting burnt out with something that I really care about sharing becoming such a monetized thing. I was like, “If I don't get paid enough, I feel really unappreciated, and that makes me feel bad.” But also just to get a paycheck, that also makes me feel burnt out and feel bad because I'm like if my motivation is just money, then what am I giving? But like, if I'm not getting enough money, I feel bad.Megan Gill: It's hard to put your heart into.Ashley Justice: Yeah, or to constantly have those negotiations and conversations. I think part of it too was I didn't want to stay in New Orleans and do that. And like I'd never found a place here where I was like, “Oh, I care about these students,” or “I like these people.” It never happened. So that's always on the back burner for me.I mean, I love teaching, but I do feel like it's exhausting navigating that because I've had people be like, “Well I don't think you're worth that much money,” and I was like, “And I don't think your kids are worth that much of my time.”Megan Gill: Amen to that, mic drop right there.Okay, so she's not teaching dance, but she is teaching group fitness. Is that the proper term for it, group fitness?Ashley Justice: Mm-hmm. I teach on the Megaformer, to be specific.Megan Gill: Okay. Pilates?Ashley Justice: Well, it's not Pilates. It's Lagree.Megan Gill: Okay. Apologies.Ashley Justice: Or the Pilates girl will come for us. It's on the Megaformer.Megan Gill: Okay, got you. I, myself, have only taken one Pilates class in my whole life and never a Lagree class.Ashley Justice: So there’s mat Pilates, and then there's like reformer Pilates. So reformer Pilates are on the machine. A reformer is like a little bit more – it's like a carriage connected to springs and there's a platform and then there are other things that you can put on it. And Pilates is meant to be low impact. You know, it's about using your breath and using you know, smooth flow, right, which I love. We love that.Megan Gill: And also talk about not having any injuries, right? The strength and like the low impact compared to…Ashley Justice: Yes, so everything is with resistance, but not pressure on your joints, basically. Everything is meant to be smooth, and you're really trying to engage the muscles to allow the movement to happen. And then you add on the tension to do that.With a Megaformer and the Lagree method, is a strength-based workout that is low impact but high intensity. The machines are, I would say, a bigger version of a reformer and I mean bigger. They're wider and they're longer. And the resistance is heavy. There are different springs, and it's a lot of resistance. It's meant to be similar in the sense that you transition really quickly, but it's mostly strength based. So it's still low impact, meaning you're on a machine, you're doing time under tension, but you're meant to be moving quickly and getting your heart rate up and really working your strengths. If you go to Club Pilates, that's based in Pilates, and if you go to Solidcore, that is based in Lagree method.So those are the differences. I teach at SLT. Which is Lagree method.Megan Gill: Do you only teach at SLT?Ashley Justice: Yeah. I mean, I am technically on payroll for this corporate company called Exos that has contracts with – you know, like I taught at Pfizer. I would teach barre. And I used to work at Equinox. I used to be a trainer at Equinox, but I hated that. But right now I'm just with SLT. So I've done barre, personal training, Lagree, and dance.Megan Gill: She knows the body.Ashley Justice: I think so, yeah.Megan Gill: No, you definitely do.—Megan Gill: How is this transition as a dancer and someone who's been moving your body in some way, in these ways for a good portion of your life, and then now coming into the group fitness space, how have these ebbs and flows of taking a lot of classes and then now how you're not taking a lot of classes, how have you navigated that and kind of coped with that?Ashley Justice: I think it’s hard because I feel like also I'm getting older. And so, that's also playing a role in what feels good and what doesn't. And also a hard thing is, I mean, we were talking about that earlier, you go, go, go and you don't even realize that it's not healthy because your body, for some reason, can handle it at some point. And then you get to a point where it can't anymore. And now that I'm older, I've learned my lesson. I can only do so much, and I can't stack things and just go, go, go. I'll physically have a breakdown, like emotionally, mentally, physically, and it's just gonna put me back even more. So it's kind of this constant circle of trying to find what feels sustainable enough.But yeah, I think the hard thing for me as a dancer is there is this constant thing of, “Oh, you're never doing enough,” and I think that goes back to like what we were talking about before, in college, all that pressure, where it was like we were moving all day and they were like, “And you are not small enough, and you need to be doing more cardio.” But what I needed to be doing was lifting weights. But that's a different thing. This makes me so mad because I got tendonitis because of that shit.Megan Gill: Because of the overdoing of the cardio and not strengthening your muscles.Ashley Justice: Yeah, I'm like, you guys want all this endurance, but I'm eating, like, zucchini and quinoa and an apple and then running for an hour on the elliptical after I've danced for five hours. It doesn't really –Megan Gill: Make it make sense! The math is literally not mathing!Ashley Justice: I was scared too. I didn't know what to do with weights. I needed a personal trainer that was gonna be like, “Lift that! Lift that!” I wish I had that because it would've made all the difference to not put so much pressure on being smaller, but put pressure on – and just the acknowledgement of how much we were working. It was because they were like, “That's the expectation.” And that's fair. Sure, that's the expectation. But on top of that, we were constantly being told, “Outside of this, you're not doing the right things. You're not eating right. You're not moving right.” I got told like my legs were too big because I was activating the wrong muscles and it was making them bulky, and my legs just look like that. They were never gonna be small.Megan Gill: You’re like, “These are my fucking legs!”Ashley Justice: It’s so funny because I said something the other day and Rita was like, “Your legs are literally insane!” She just said that, and I was like, “That's so funny.” I don't even know if she remembers, but she was just saying like, “Your legs are literally bonkers, like insane muscle. It's crazy. It's always been crazy,” and I'm like, “Yeah, remember when I was bullied about this?” She's like, “But like they're so crazy. Your legs are insane,” and I was like, “Thanks!”But it's funny because it was the first feedback – it was my first semester, it was the first feedback I got.Megan Gill: About your legs?Ashley Justice: Yeah.Megan Gill: Being quote unquote too big.Ashley Justice: Yeah. Okay, also, they were the wrong shape.Megan Gill: Oh my God. It's so wild to me that the emphasis is on, like you said, being smaller and the emphasis is not on general strength. And then also to go along with that, emphasis was on being smaller and being thin and looking this picture perfect way that they had envisioned for us to look. When in reality, where is the overall general emphasis on health? The fact that we were not eating enough is also insane.Ashley Justice: I don't know if I ever told you this, but there was a point where I couldn't keep my arm up in ballet because my body was convulsing because I was shaking so badly because my blood sugar was so low, and I got called lazy by one person that I don't feel like talking about, someone that I don't even know if you even remember this person. So it's no one that in your head that you've thought of that came up. It's none of them actually.And another person was like, “You're gonna call the doctor, and you're gonna sit in my office until you call,” and it was crazy because I didn't understand what was going on. I didn't even know why I was shaking.Megan Gill: That's how normalized all of this –Ashley Justice: It was like, “I don't know why I can't hold my arm up. I don't know why my body is shaking and why I feel like I can't get through barre.”Megan Gill: Was it like, “I'm doing everything you're telling me –,” this is very broad and generalized. “I'm doing everything that you're telling me that I'm being told to do”? You just thought that you were doing what you were supposed to be doing kind of a thing?Ashley Justice: Yeah, and even on top of that was still getting the messaging like, “You're not strong enough. Your core is not strong enough. You need to do Pilates.” But I was like, “How the hell am I supposed to do Pilates? I can't afford Pilates because I had this scholarship that said I needed to work, but I couldn't work on campus. So I had to work off campus.” But I also was a scholarship student. So then they were like, “Well, you have to be available for every rehearsal we want you to be available for.” So I was like, “Well, how am I supposed to do all of that? Because I can't work enough to pay for anything, but I have to work.” That's why I worked at Bella Luna once a week. I worked on Sundays. They just let me come in on Sundays because I was like, “I have no other time to come in.” So I’d just come and work a brunch on a Sunday so that I had a job, right, so that my scholarship wouldn't get taken away. But I also had no other time, and there were no resources for me to pay for Pilates, and there was very little time for me to – because, hello, I also had academic classes.Megan Gill: Yeah, not to mention!Ashley Justice: Not to mention, I also had academic classes, so going home, I was usually doing them online. So I did a lot of online classes, and there were some semesters where I had rehearsal all the time and some semesters where I probably could have fit that in, right? But I didn't even know where to access it because I'm not fucking from this city and I don't know anyone here, and you're the only people I fucking know. That was the other thing, too, about my experience was like, “I don't have a community here.” And I felt like nobody understood that. I'm like, “You guys are the only community I have, so every bit of my experience is consumed by this.”Megan Gill: I can very much relate with that.Ashley Justice: Like, “This is all I've got.”Megan Gill: And it becomes like your, like community is almost synonymous with family in a sense that there is a lot of trust here, and it's like, there's someone who very much took me under their wing and was like, “This is gonna be great,” and there's a lot of trust built there when it's like, “Oh, someone sees something in me,” and it's like, “Okay, this is great, and I trust them!” And then like the messaging you're getting from them, in various ways, indirectly through things that were said to my close friends that then were passed on to me, things that were done to me, and then it's just like the general messaging within said program.Ashley Justice: I had a very, very similar experience because I was also taken under the wing. I had a very, very similar experience, and the person that inflicted so much of that shit on me was also the person who got me my eating disorder specialist therapist, was the person who found it for me. Wild, right? You're actively perpetuating this on me and also recognizing that I'm not okay.—Ashley Justice: I mean, it's a little bit of hindsight, a little bit of survival too. I just couldn't stand it anymore. I was past the breaking point. It was really, really bad. And it wasn't just me. I think a lot of people were at a breaking point and they were just like me, “Eh, we're getting what we want, so that's good.” And yeah, I think I got to a point where I was like, “Oh, I mean, if I'm not gonna be dancing, I can say what I want.And yeah, I've gotten apologies from – for some reason I elicit people apologizing to me when I'm like, “Oh, okay.”Megan Gill: You're like, “Oh, thank you.”Ashley Justice: And I mean, I remember Donnie and I were so close at the time. He lost a bunch of weight and got pulled aside and they were like, “Are you okay?” I mean, correct. Good to check in. Did I ever get that? No. They were so deeply hard on me and they would always be like, “Well, it's just because we think you're so capable and blah, blah, blah,” and I was like, “But you're putting this pressure and you've instilled in my head that my capability doesn't matter, right?Megan Gill: Because it's about my body and not about my capability?Ashley Justice: Yeah, and I remember one time being like, “You keep saying that I'm so good and I'm such a good dancer, but my body's the problem, but my body's the one dancing. So if I'm so good, then how is my body the problem? If I'm so much better the –,” and better is a big word to use. But if I'm so “good” or in this prime of me dancing, but my body's the issue, you just don't like seeing my body being capable of doing it. Or it defies what you think my body looks like, should be capable of doing it, because I can do it at a level that you're trying to make me smaller and put me down because you're like, “Well that's not how it's supposed to go.” And instead of that, they tried to, I think their perspective was, “If she can just get her body right, she's gonna be able to book.” That's what I think, true to god, the motivation was yes. “If you can just do that, you can book,” and I couldn't do it because I was already fucked up mentally and it was putting pressure on me that was not sustainable, right? And maybe that's true, right? Maybe that is true, and maybe they were right, or maybe not.But the reality is, like what we said before, it wasn't their position. Their position should have just been, “All right, see this. Let's foster it.” And they just focus so deeply on me. And what are the implications of you telling me that my body's not where it – the implications of me in that moment are, like you said, “You're someone that I trust, you're in a position of power, so I believe what you have to say because you know more than me.” That's implication one. Implication two: what they know about me is that I left everything I knew and I'm in a place where I don't have anyone, and you’re my only support system. So everything you say is the only thing I have, right?So you know that, and you're telling me that I'm not doing enough outside of this department. So now in my head, I'm not doing enough, I'm not working hard enough, I need to do more. These are all the implications of telling people things like that in those positions, right? Because you're talking about a position of power and you're talking about students and professors, and in these performance programs, like we said, those lines get very blurred. They really do, and I think that can happen in general. But I think with performance-based programs, it's way more prevalent, because in other programs, there's a little bit of a structure and separation that there's not always in these scenarios.Megan Gill: Right, and we're also like feelers and artists and creatives, so I feel like we like family up, kind of. We get really close with our people.Ashley Justice: Yeah, you’ll cut yourself open just for the validation of doing it. But yeah, the implications of what they're saying, I just don't think that they were really understanding that, or maybe they did and they didn't care, or they were just like, “That's too much for me to handle, so I can only look at it through this lens.” But the implications of telling a student all of that is very personal, right? At least from my perspective, you're telling me that your perspective of me is that I do not do enough to be adequate, right?Megan Gill: Or that I will, then, graduate this program, and from everything you're telling me and projecting onto me, I will not be bookable, and I will not get work –Ashley Justice: I mean, I straight up was told that.Megan Gill: – because of my body, which is extremely fucked, literally so extremely fucked, right? So what about a world where the leaders in this dance program see you and they're like, “Yep, we're gonna put her in this, we're gonna book her in this” We are never going to even have the fucking body conversation because it doesn't fucking matter. Like what? I know it's a little Pollyanna, but it’s like –Ashley Justice: I mean, the costumes are a whole different conversation that I was also dealing with. I don't even wanna talk about it. Giving me a six-foot-five man's costume was maniacal, and then Renee was like, “Hey girl, your costume looks crazy from the audience.” I was like, “Yeah, it's giant.” So she had to go in and sew it on the sides to make it – it’s a biketard, by the way, so it should have been fitted. We were borrowing them from OCU, and I was just too big to fit into the other one, so they gave it to Casey or something. I mean, to be fair, Casey's really skinny and needed a smaller one than me.Megan Gill: It's called go fucking find another solution and not make it about you being the problem. The problem is not you, the problem is that –Ashley Justice: Well, luckily, Renee was like, “Why the fuck does Ashley’s costume look like that?”Megan Gill: Thank god! But also to have to go through that experience and to have these people that you know and love and trust be so – and not to blame them but, you know?Ashley Justice: Then by the senior year, Cheyla's texting me, “Hey, we're ordering costumes. What size are you most comfortable with?”Megan Gill: This should be the fucking baseline.Ashley Justice: But only because I crashed out on them!Megan Gill: But this is where the power – and it sucks because it's like I'm sitting here saying like, “I'm so, so glad, Ashley, that you used your voice and like the power of fucking speaking up and saying, ‘This is not okay.’ But then how much emotional labor for you came along with that, and how unfair is it that you had to step up?” Yay, go you, but also it's not beside me that that took so much of your time and energy while you were also struggling with your own –Ashley Justice: Which is why I don't enjoy taking on the burden of being like a beacon of symbolism for bodies doing things. I hate it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it, and I don't want it to be projected onto me. I don't like it because I've already labored enough, I feel like that I'm like, “I don't wanna do that anymore.” I want it to be neutral. I really resent the, “Oh my god, you got, I love that because –.”It’s even hard, the shit that I get submitted for is all this like weird curvy shit. But that's just casting, right? It's just casting. So that's fine. It doesn't burden me in that way, but, I don't know, I've definitely been projected onto where people message me: “Oh my god, I love seeing when you just post your photoshoots, and you're so confident in your body,” and all this stuff. And I'm like, “Why?”Megan Gill: Why are we talking about this? Yeah.Ashley Justice: Nor did I open that conversation. My caption wasn't like, “Back when I…” No messaging about that. It's something that gets projected onto me.Megan Gill: That you did not ask for, kind of like you didn't ask to be taken – I feel like there's a theme of people just thinking that they can show up and either look at your body in these ways, or talk about it in these ways, or make it everything in these ways and it's like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hi, I'm Ashley. I'm a dancer and a choreographer and the fucking awesome person.” Why couldn't the comment have been like, “You're gorge!” or “You're exuding confidence!” Why does it have to tie back to like, “You're exuding confidence because I'm so inspired by you sharing your body in this way.” Why do we have to talk about that, least of it all, why is that what everything comes back to?Ashley Justice: Yeah, and it's hard because with social media and with all of these things, it's taken me a long time to be able to even live in that because for so long, I was just like I just don't wanna be commented on, I don't wanna be perceived. That was kind of the fallout of graduating. I was like, “I don't even want to be looked at or talked about or talked to.” If someone brought anything up, I literally would shut down and be like, “Oh, I'm not talking about that.” Like, “Oh no, I'm not doing that.” Literally, I was just like, I simply can't even be in these situations.And that's why, at the time, I was teaching dance a lot and I was like, “Ooh, this environment is not the environment for me right now because I feel so strongly about it and I'm still dealing with my own stuff. And it's not the time for me to be in charge because I'm either going to get mad at people, or I'm gonna have conflict a lot. I still have to navigate everything about me before I become this advocate of body positivity in dance. I couldn't handle that at that moment in time, but I also couldn't stand back and watch kids be subjected to the things that I know caused me so much harm. So I really had to remove myself from that because I was like, “I can't do it. I'm having a hard time,” because I just came from this place, right, where I was already fighting. I was literally already in fight mode, and I'm like, “I'm not in the place to have this fight with people.” Because people are like, “Why do you feel so – where is this coming from?” There's no context for where it's coming from or you know, any of that. So I was like, okay, this isn't a space that's gonna be good for me at this point in time. I can't be there.Now it's fine. I'm good. Back then, ten years ago when I was in that position, I was like, “No way.” And at the time I was dancing too, and people were just so interested in what I was doing and, “Oh, how you look –,” and all this stuff. It's a lot to try to do and to be projected on and then to also try to be auditioning and then deal with that outside of it? I'm like, I just need anything that isn't consumed by that.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm, which I think is so hard because it's like, gosh, for your passion to be dance, this thing where, like you said earlier, my body's doing the dancing – our bodies are so synonymous with the art form that it just, it makes it so, so nuanced. And it's like, god, there is no separating that and it is really fucking hard to navigate. So then if I need to take care of myself and maybe not be spoken about in these ways and like not fully be on display, well then does that also mean that I'm not dancing? What does that mean?Ashley Justice: And on top of all of that, what's very interesting for me – and I think women experience this, I think anyone who identifies as a woman experiences this in some capacity, in whatever way they fit into the way society views them, objectively, as a woman, which is gross and I hate, but also a reality. An interesting time to get into my twenties and really develop the body type that I have and an interesting time for BBLs to be a thing and for the Kardashians and all of this stuff. So it's a weird juxtaposition to be a single woman who's a dancer. Very confusing, right?It's always been hard to be a white woman with the body type that I have because my sister also has a similar body type, and we're from a place where it's also very Black. So these things are not dynamics that we're not used to, but you remove yourself out of my little New Orleans bubble and you put me other places – so, mind you, my personal life, my inner workings, my trauma, my stuff, all this dance stuff, right, that's such a big, huge part of who I am. Then I go and I do things, and I've always like, “I need an identity out(side) of this,” right? So I'm building my life outside of that. And then I date men and guess what's the forefront for all of these experiences, right? Then you have social media, and guess what's the forefront of all of these experiences? It doesn't matter which way I turn, it doesn't matter who I'm talking to, no matter what, for some reason, the forefront of how people see me is body first, person second, and then I have to navigate conversations from there.So it's a hard thing because it's like what's more triggering, going and being in dance or literally just living real life? I think women experience that in every way, shape, or form. Women have heard either peers say something about their body, whoever they date say something, maybe, about their body. I teeter because on social media, I almost love to put it out and be like, “Okay, this is just my body and I'm not gonna be uncomfortable with any of this stuff,” and I've just decided to be like, “I'm doing this shoot and I don't care.” It's fine and I can post it and I'm happy about it or whatever. And it's interesting to see how people treat me because of that, particularly men. It's very telling whether right away I'm being objectified, or what they think about what I do, or all this stuff. So it's a really, really interesting place to be in and how I have to navigate my identity outside of dance too. So I'm constantly teetering that.And I was telling my good friend, we've been friends since high school, and I was telling her that one day and I was like, “Yeah, it's always this,” and I was talking about somebody saying something to me about my body. Like I said the other day, just casually, someone was like, “Oh yeah, you've always had this. Oh yeah, da da da. That must be really hard.” That's not something I deal with. People don't talk about my body to my face regularly. And I'm like, I get spoken to about my butt all the time; the fact that I'm white, all the time. It's such a theme in my life that I'm this blue-eyed, blonde, curvy person that it's the only lens that I get viewed from, I feel like, on a outward perspective. Now, I don't feel like that talking to you or I don't feel like that with like my close friends, but I just mean like in a –Megan Gill: If you're out there like going on first dates or meeting people in a while or whatever it may be, yeah.Ashley Justice: Yeah, and it’s hard because then you talk about fitness in New York, but then I'm in a Pilates space, right? And it's like the goal is to be white, thin people, and that's interesting. It doesn't really bug me because I'm like I just don't fit into that and I don't care. But the societal pressure of white supremacy and whiteness on women – or this goal to be thin. That's what I mean, not the pressures of being white.Megan Gill: Right.Ashley Justice: Within white supremacy, within this system that we are –Megan Gill: Yes, that absolutely goes right along with it.Ashley Justice: – inside is this need to be thin, right? And that's the other thing too.So we talked about body image, and to give context to all this, we're white, right? We didn't even talk about the racial aspects and the racism that happens with bodies and how my body and how I've been spoken to in a very – I don't wanna use in a racist way, but I don't know how else to explain it, that I've been told more than once that I have like a Black girl body, right? And that is racist. Not that it's racist to me, right? It's racist to Black people –Megan Gill: Absofuckinglutely.Ashley Justice: – and to Black women, and also depending on who it's coming from is an insult, right? And it doesn't insult me. I don't feel any insult being compared to Black women at all. But if it's coming from a white person, I know that that's an insult, right? It's a microaggression, and it's not a microaggression – I mean, I guess it's a microaggression to me, but it's a microaggression of putting Black people beneath you and then putting me in that category with Black people that are underneath you.So that's a whole other layer that I've talked about with friends and like with people. And it's why with dance, the people that have encouraged me the most are usually people of color. White people in dance are genuinely not my advocates, and I don't try to have them be my advocates. And I don't seek out people of color for that. It’s just the people that have become close or given me opportunities or taken the time to ask me what I want, have always been people of color and never white people. White people have projected things. They have done these microaggressions. It does feel easier to be in community with people of color because, while I'll never know their experience, and while all I can do is be a better voice and not be silent if I see racism happening – it's always happening, but if blatant things, I see it because it's been expressed to me in ways that I don't think it's expressed to white people who fit the white mold. The microaggressions have happened to me. The implications are less so because I know that it's happened, I feel like I have the responsibility to call that out. Because what an interesting position to be in, right?I've been told that so many times. Me and my sister have been told that so many times. And it's not always in a dance context. Sometimes dudes will say that shit. It's a whole other conversation that I'm happy to talk about if I'm invited into. And it's just something that I keep front of mind because how I'm spoken to and the way that people interact with me in a social way is also rooted in an race lens, right? Which is a weird thing because I'm white and such a very – my face is giving, like my face is giving Aryan race, and then my body is giving confusion for white people. So it's been a thing for a long time, and I feel way more in community with people of color in dance spaces, and I'm always grateful to be in those spaces when I'm invited, and I feel more comfortable in those spaces.And it's interesting when I was talking to you about that guy I went on a date with who's a white guy and, you know, when I was talking about that, it's funny because what I said, my friend, she said the same thing. She's Filipino and, you know, she's a person I listen to, and she allows me in those conversations a lot when it comes to race in performing arts and all of these things. And she's allowed me in on like thoughts and experiences that she's had and things with her friends that are happening. And she said something exactly what I said to that guy and I was like, “See! White people never understand what I'm fucking saying. White people always get mad and say that I'm negative.” And I'm like, “No, because when I talk to my friends of color, they know exactly what I'm talking about, but it's because I'm white and you're perceiving that.” People don't treat me the same way they treat other white women who fit into that mold. So when I'm critiquing it, you are taking offense, but it needs to be critiqued!Megan Gill: Right!Ashley Justice: Right? I was like, “See, I'm valid! I'm not crazy. What I was saying, it makes sense.Megan Gill: Oh, totally.Ashley Justice: But it's another layer that is very complicated and not – you know, I feel like I have to be cautious how I insert those experiences, but I do feel like I live somewhere in between. My agency is an all-Black agency. Of course, none of the big agencies fucking picked me up. Of course, a Black man is my agent. And it’s always Black people in dance who have ever given me an opportunity, always. I can't even think of a white person that has given me an opportunity besides, you know, my company in New Orleans. But yeah, it's always people of color who have opened the doors for me.So that's why I really listen and I do critique musical theater. I was talking to someone, you know, about doing ECCs for Hell's Kitchen. I'm like, “If you don't know who Camille A. Brown is and you're white, do not go to that. Do not go to that.” I was talking to my friend Veronica because she was complaining about it. I was like, “If I was dancing right now, I would go, but I know Camille's background. I go to her – I know, and I have the background and I have the training in where her stuff is rooted, and I also would just be happy to just be in the room.But we were talking about it's white girls who went to OCU or went to these programs and they're like, “Oh, and I'm gonna go to everything, and I belong and everything and blah, blah blah.” It’s like, “You don't belong in this space.”“  They were so deeply hard on me and they would always be like, ‘Well, it's just because we think you're so capable,’ and blah, blah, blah. I remember one time being like, ‘You keep saying that I'm so good and I'm such a good dancer, but if my body's the problem, my body's the one dancing. So if I'm so good, then how is my body the problem? If I'm ‘so good’ or in this prime of me dancing, but my body's the issue, you just don't like seeing my body being capable of doing it, or it defies what you think that what my body looks like should be capable of doing. Because I can do it at a level that you're trying to make me smaller and trying to put me down. Because you're like, ‘Well that's not how it's supposed to go.’ But you could just be like, ‘All right,’ period.’ And instead of that, this is what I think their perspective was: ‘If she can just get her body right, she's gonna be able to book.’ That's what I think, true to god, the motivation was: ‘If you can just do that, you can book.’”- Ashley JusticeAshley Justice is a dancer, choreographer, and fitness instructor, based in New York City. She has a B.F.A. in Dance Performance and Choreography from Wichita State University. She has toured nationally and internationally with Wichita Contemporary Dance Theatre, Lightwire Theater, and was a dancer with Mélange Dance Company. She has worked on multiple film sets in New Orleans as a dancer and is currently represented by 216 Talent Agency. Ashley has premiered her own work in multiple cities across the U.S. including NYC, New Orleans, and Wichita, KS. She was the Assistant Choreographer for the 71st Miss Universe Pageant in 2022 and is currently a full time instructor at SLT, NYC.Ashley’s InstagramBook an SLT, NYC Class with Ashley!Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome lovely friend and fellow (voice)actor Maddie McGuire to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Maddie and I met online in 2020 during Ashli Pollard (of The Doers)’s business course, Square One Accelerator. We’d only known each other over the internet until the fall of 2024 when we finally got to meet in person! Since then, we’ve gotten closer and closer, and Maddie was one of the first people to express to me how much she believes in what I’m doing with this project. (Thank you Maddie!)Maddie is an inspirational gem of a human being. She’s the voice of Comcast on TV (along with many others), and she does a lot of other voice acting work as well. She’s such a humble, caring, talented woman with a heart of pure gold, and I am so excited for you to hear our conversation. Our discussion floats around connecting with our bodies to allow us to use our voice confidently in the spaces we frequent, the journey of embracing aging and our ever-changing bodies (and careers), and Maddie’s journey with running a half marathon. Tune in and enjoy Maddie and I’s conversation!“It’s been happening recently too, Megan. Probably from a year ago when we first kind of met and I was hearing so much about your business, I feel like my brain – I've just been so much more open to explore what comes up, whether that be a feeling, a thought, challenging myself to be like, “Let's just try something different today with the workout clothes I'm wearing,” or whatever the case may be, instead of getting locked into comfort, not that that's a negative thing at all. I just think that that's become such a safety net, especially in COVID for me. I'm just ready to write a new permission slip, and that's what all these findings are is like, “Okay, what's that permission slip we're writing next, and what are we kind of sorting through to get there?””- Maddie McGuireMaddie McGuire: I feel like I've had a couple phases before in my life where it's almost like I woke up and realized my body has changed, and then it's forced me to reevaluate my relationship with my body, health, clothes, feeling sexy, feeling strong, all of those things. And so, I feel like I'm in a period of that, of almost like, okay, things have changed. I'm accepting that. Now, what does past acceptance and actually falling in love with my body again look like, or a different form of the relationship.Megan Gill: Yeah. It’s evolving and how do you mentally have radical acceptance for the way that it's evolving while also working towards loving and caring for and appreciating the changes, because I feel like it's so easy to be like, “Ah! I’m changing!” Whether it's my body is changing in the sense that it's getting older, or my knee is starting to hurt a little bit more now, or whether it's in a sense of, “Oh, I've gained weight,” or “Oh, I've lost weight, and like now my clothes don't fit, and how am I supposed to feel sexy in a pair of jeans that don't fit me right, whether I've gained weight or lost weight?”So, oh, gosh. I feel like this is just such a relatable topic probably for so many women and people in general.Maddie McGuire: Yeah.Megan Gill: Do you feel like you've gone through different periods in your life of having to reevaluate kind of like you are right now?Maddie McGuire: Yeah. I feel like – and I was thinking about that too, where I was like, when have I felt like this before? And every time's different, obviously, but I feel like the first big one, I was never like chubby, per se, as a kid, but I definitely had a lot of baby fat in my tummy and my face. And then when I started going through puberty, really, almost like the last two years of high school, growing a little bit and things changed, I got more attention. I was also starting to act at that time, and I was mainly doing theater improv things off camera. And then that was kind of the first time I was also starting to do on-camera acting. My body was changing.And I feel like I've been pretty lucky because I don't think I've ever had a true issue with disordered eating, per se. But there are two times in my life where, looking back, I was like, oh, I had tendencies that kind of started like ebbing into that category. And that was the first time where I was like, “Oh, I'm getting praise. I'm getting validation for the changes that my body naturally did. Let's do more.”Megan Gill: Mm, yeah. Wow.Maddie McGuire: So let's control our eating more, everything. That was the first time I even noticed it. And then from there, there's been a couple other times throughout my twenties, I feel like when I was 25, that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I have hips. My hips are starting to come in.” I was like, “I'm looking different in jeans than I did when I was 21 or 22 or 18.”And then I really think there was like another big shift into my thirties where I was like, “Oh wow, okay. My body's like becoming more womanly, and it's actually becoming a lot stronger than it used to be.” And also I think I've noticed different things with my face and my neck and other parts of my body. So yeah, I would say around 18, 25 and then 31/32 have been three very distinctive markers where I was like, “Oh.” I woke up and I feel like I noticed the shift.Megan Gill: This is so interesting, and how fascinating that it's coming out of like our teenage years, and into your early twenties, and then sort of around that 25 mark where you're like, “Okay, well, I'm definitely not a teen teenager anymore. I'm like a full young adult.” And then I do think moving into your thirties, I mean, I'm experiencing it myself where you're like, “Oh, these are the gray hairs that they talk about, that our moms talked about. These are the crow's feet or the wrinkles,” or “My friends are getting Botox? Like, what? Okay, do I need to get Botox?” Like, all of those things that then come with being in your thirties. Or, gosh, I was in my yoga class this morning and seriously my knee, there was a little pain there. And I'm like, “Am I good?” Oh, my god.Maddie McGuire: You know, when they're like, “Okay, whatever, obviously be aware of your body,” in different classes. You’re like, “Not for me, I'm fine.” And then yeah, all of a sudden you're like, “Is this one of those moments where I'm pushing myself?” Because I want to be like, “No, you're fine. That's not happening. But you're like…”Megan Gill: Like, I'm literally aging. Yeah, I'm 32, but at the same time, our bodies day by day are getting older and just having that recognition. But that's beside the point.I think that what's most interesting to me about what you were saying before about your recognition of, “Oh, I'm coming into –,” I think you said like your last couple years of high school when you started to notice that the way your body was naturally changing and evolving was leading you to get more attention. I think that's a really important piece to pull out and note here. And how that, then, catapulted you to want to continue to maintain that.Maddie McGuire: Right.Megan Gill: Because I also can very much relate with that sentiment as well. And for me it was when I entered college was when I started to realize that if I ate this and worked out like this, my body would get smaller.Maddie McGuire: Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: And then that’s when I started to get the attention that I'd never gotten in high school, middle school, prior. And, I mean, I think I was very much driven by a similar mentality of like, “I need to maintain this because I don't ever wanna go back to the world before where I didn't get attention - in acting, from my peers, from my family, from boys.” Whatever it was, it was like, “Oh yeah, no, this is what –,” like the comments about how my body was changing and how my body looked at that point. That is what society teaches us is “good” or what we should “strive for,” right? At least like when we were going through our high school and college years in the 2000s/2010s.Maddie McGuire: Well, and you said two things, Megan. There was something you posted on your Instagram that pretty much was like, “Bodies are meant to change. Bodies are literally always in a state of growth,” and that really stuck with me when I saw it. So I've been thinking about that since I saw it on your Instagram a couple weeks ago, and then you just said something about “maintain,” this need or this want to maintain this size, this look, this whatever it is that we've been getting validation and praise for. And I feel like those two thoughts literally just captured so much of the duality that I've been in of this acceptance of, “Wait, my body's like a growing, living organism that is changing every day, and this trying to relinquish that almost gripping on wanting to still maintain something that, one, is not even relevant or longer there anymore. But there still is this little bit of a fight that I'm constantly trying to reframe that's like, “What if XYZ could lead back to the ballpark of what that size was,” you know what I mean?Megan Gill: Yes. No, I know exactly what you mean because I think that's when we get caught in this really, really detrimental cycle of control in order to get the thing that we think we should want. And there's no freedom in that. There's no joy in that, at least in my experience. And it's just like a lot of unfortunate mental gymnastics that, then, we are hyper-focused on like the eating and the exercise and the equation of if I do this plus this I'll get this result, which then takes us away from all of the wonderful things that we want to do with our lives, all of the wonderful things that matter.I think that it's so difficult, and it does take a lot of energy to do what you're doing with bringing yourself back to like, “Okay!” Do you find that every time that comes up for you and every time you recognize that those thoughts are there and are present for you, that you're able to have a lot more awareness now at this stage of your life to be like, “Oh, this is coming up. Okay, we need to really sit with this for a second and remind ourselves that we are an ever-changing organism, and that's what really matters more than trying to bring myself back to a certain size.” I'm just curious kind of what your mental process is now when those things come up for you.Maddie McGuire: Great question and I think, yeah, there's definitely so much more awareness on the thoughts coming up and then not getting attached to that thought being something that I actually think or believe, and then kind of giving it meaning and not being so attached to myself or my self-worth.So one, I've been to a significant amount of therapy, so that helps. Also conversations like this, and I think a couple of my friends, we've actually started having more and more conversations like this. And so, that's helped a lot because then it's not as isolating. You don't feel as alone. I think in general, being able to kind of thought map or thought track a little bit has helped me, again, not attach meaning to every single thought that I'm having and to replace it with something else as opposed to just being like – whatever is coming up and around mainly like how I'm viewing what I look like in my body rather than what I'm feeling like in my body.Half the time when I'm trying on clothes, I will, as if I'm like, “Oh, this doesn't feel good.” And I'm like, “Why doesn't it feel good? Is it because I'm probably not that size anymore, and there's something like, what are the clothes that do make me feel good? Why do those things feel good?” And also reminding myself, too, “Before I put on these jeans, I felt great.” So maybe just don't wear those effing jeans, you know what I mean? Stop trying to force that.I also think there is a fitness studio that I go to now, and it's a mix of kind of like a Barry's Bootcamp type of strength training, HIIT classes, spin classes, and then sculpt classes. And in the studio I've never seen a wider range of women at different ages and points of their life where there's a ton of people in their twenties, tons of people in their thirties and forties, and a lot of women in their fifties, sixties, seventies. So in one class, there could be 20 of us, and we're in so many different age groups.I went out to a happy hour with one of the girls in my class, and she brought that up. She was like, “I feel so empowered when I walk into this space. We're all in different phases of our life, and we're all here like empowering each other, showing up, trying to become a better version of ourselves, trying to be stronger.” And then I was like, “Oh yeah, that is why I love –.” I never walk into that space worried about what I'm looking like in the mirror as I'm doing a workout, or you feel more alive from the energy of the community around you, and you're like, “That woman is 75, and she's kicking ass right now,” and it’s, again, more about that feeling rather than even noticing what she looks like. So I think that's been a huge help in changing that inner dialogue.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. I'm just on the brink of [tears] because how beautiful that is and how wonderful that you have a space that has helped you, has helped kind of pull you out of the thinking about it and like pull you back into your body and into the feeling. I can relate as well with my yoga studio that I go to. It's so, so freaking incredibly inspiring and amazing to look around and see an array of different bodies, an array of different ages altogether in this hour class. And that has also been something for me I think that like, gosh, I didn't even really realize until just listening to you reflect about your fitness studio and the culture and community there that, as actors, as someone who grew up in front of the mirror dancing for a lot of my childhood around other kids my age, and even in college dance classes and in theater and high school and different things like that where everyone is your same age, it’s, I think, so much easier to play the comparison game and to be like, “Oh, we're basically the same age, so we “should have a similar body,” or look similarly or blah, blah, blah, whatever that is.But I think being able to look around a room where you're there to show up and, like you said, better yourself and gain physical strength for your actual health and wellness, instead of it being like, “I'm here to lose X amount of calories,” or whatever, you know, other markers there are out there. I'm so grateful these spaces exist because I think it helps pull us out of that.I’m just spinning off of everything you just said, but I'm just sitting here thinking one of my good friends at my yoga studio is in her – I believe that she's turning 60 this year, and it's so cool because there's a sculpt class, and it's like the hardest of the classes. It's really gnarly, really intense. And this woman is always at a sculpt class, and it's incredible, and it's so inspiring and she'll sometimes turn to me and be like, “Oh, my gosh, I looked over at you and like, you're still doing it, and you inspired me.” And I was like, “Jenn, are you kidding? I looked over at you, and like you are still in the movement, and that you inspire me.” And just how wonderful to have that experience. I don't know what the point of this is, but I just think it's really special.Maddie McGuire: I think too, Megan, it's exactly kind of the reframe we're talking about of being more connected, again, to the energy. Again, when you're there, like you're like, “Wow, I'm in a room, yes, for the point of moving my body, and I'm not even thinking about my body, right? And it's like when we're talking about there's so much focus that we have on our bodies, from ourselves, from the career paths that we've chosen. There's so much attention on that.I didn't even think about what a great thing you brought up of like, oh, when we're in classes, it's all the same age of people. I'm like, I didn't even think about that until we're kind of unpacking this here, but I think that's part of it, to be able to have these spaces where there's celebration, there's all the focus on strength, and again, that empowerment, because I do a sculpt class, so effing hard. I'm always like, “Why am I here? I love/hate it,” you know? I’m going through all the mantras to get through it, and it is true. I never am like, “Oh wow, I need a break right now, and she's still going, I want that in a negative way.” Again, there's so much more empowerment I think when there are spaces where, yeah, it's women of all different ages and phases of life. I'm in a small town right now, and also a lot of people are pregnant, which is like people younger than me, a lot of them younger than me are pregnant. So I've seen them go from not being pregnant to pregnant to after being pregnant and having the baby. There's so many, again, different phases where it's like even if they are focused on how they're looking, that's not the conversation that's happening, and that's not what's being shared in that space.Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah, and also just like adding the pregnancy body into it all. It's like all of these different bodies. It's really cool and really special to be able to be in a space where it's become less about us staring in the mirror and looking at our bodies and analyzing our bodies.I think that, just throwing this out there as a little piece for me, I'll force myself to not hike up my leggings when I'm sitting down in a class, or I think I always have the tendency to hide my stomach, just as a side note.Maddie McGuire: Oh, okay. Yeah.Megan Gill: Something that my yoga studio space and community has just inspired me to do is to not. Sometimes I'm like, “Okay, I'm just gonna –,” because it feels more comfortable to me, which is something I also feel like I need to unpack on a different day. But I think that just the act of being like, “My body's safe here in this studio. It’s not going to be criticized by this community,” and guess what, I'm never analyzing other people's bodies. So no one's looking at me, at my tummy rolls thinking anything about them. Phew. Yeah, I feel like there's been a lot of personal unpacking for me in that sense as well, which has been really interesting to explore.Maddie McGuire: Absolutely. And even you bringing that up, Megan. Yeah, it's so funny because as my body's been changing, I noticed a habit. I've had it, I think, since I was a kid, again, that puberty, let's say like 13, 14, 15 range where I didn't even realize I was doing it. I was always kind of grabbing by my love handles or by my stomach. Teeny, little pinches just to be, I don't know, like, “What's there? What's not there,” like a fixation of some sort. And it's been really interesting exploring even wearing different types of clothes to the gym or taking different classes like a spin class versus the sculpt class versus the strength class and how I feel, because I think I've also had a similar fixation with my stomach.What's funny is I also do a lot of voiceover, and now I do voiceover from home, literally in a closet. I'm not going into a studio where I'm dressing cute and whatever because I'm around producers and around clients, and now it's such a push pull with my stomach because I think, even naturally, if I'm sitting on the couch, I will bring a pillow. I always want something to hold onto and protect that part of me. And I've been trying to be more like, “What if it's open? What if it's free? I'm at home. Let's challenge myself to just lay it all out there.”And what's funny in voiceover, I got so used to not wearing stuff that had pressure on my stomach, I realized how much better I breathe with my diaphragm and how much more strength and power I have. And so, it's just been something funny that I've started playing around with the clothes I wear in workout classes because sometimes I'm like, “Why can't I breathe?” I'm like, “Oh, because everything's tight. My pants are tight on my stomach, and my sports bra’s tight on my chest, and I can't fricking breathe.” And so, it's been interesting with voiceover. I was like how can I take some of this openness, this fluidness into the clothes I'm wearing working out? What would that change?Megan Gill: Oh, wow. Ooh, that is a word, truly. And just taking that into the other spaces of your life. I'm even thinking, as a stage actor, my god, the amount of times I was on stage and like the tightest tights and a tight ass leotard, and there was always talk about, “Oh, the dichotomy between keeping your core tight while you're dancing, but at the same time you're fucking singing because it's musical theater,” and that dichotomy too of keeping it tight, yet you need to breathe in order to support your voice. Wow, that's really lovely that you've had this discovery.Maddie McGuire: It’s been happening like recently too, Megan. I think since we – probably from a year ago when we first kind of met and I was hearing so much about your business. I feel like my brain – I've just been so much more open to explore what comes up, whether that be a feeling, the thought, challenging myself to be like, let's just try something different today with the workout clothes I'm wearing, or whatever the case may be, instead of getting locked into not that being locked into comfort, not that that's a negative thing at all. I just think that that's become such a safety net, especially in COVID for me. Yeah, I'm just ready to write a new permission slip, and that's like what all these findings are is like, “Okay, what's that permission slip we're writing next, and what are we kind of sorting through to get there?”Megan Gill: Yeah, I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it, giving yourself the permission to explore and have freedom and maybe find the joy in the exploration. Because also hearing you say – oh, what word did you just say, locked into this place of comfort also makes me think of how much control we have to constantly be putting out and having –Maddie McGuire: Yes.Megan Gill: – in order to keep ourselves locked in. Whereas giving yourself this permission to go and not have the pillow guarding your belly space and being able to let it relax a little bit, and allowing that to be okay and seeing what that brings up for you, I think there's just so much more freedom and play in that that will hopefully lead to expending less energy on the things that keep us locked in and keep is small and keep us, honestly at least for me from experience, struggling or in that toxic cycle or in the negative self-talk loop or whatever it may be.Maddie McGuire: Well, and I think that's such a beautiful way to look at it too, Megan, of just the amount of energy expended on control, because that really is what it is. It's like trying to control to feel safe, right? It's like all of it's trying to make us feel safe, but it's almost like when they say you're kinda like the creator of your own cage, you're keeping yourself stuck. Even though you have the key. The door is open, you just don't realize it's open. I feel like it's that same thing. It's like the safety that ultimately is keeping everything contained and stuck in a certain place.So what I was thinking about in general too, I think that energy, for me it can look a lot like questioning myself, like micro questions of this or that, this or that for my body or for the way I look, and what I've even noticed – and again, I'm so happy I'm in this process of knowing and noticing to, again, figure out ways I want to accept, ways I want to adapt. But I find it that I'm so much more in tune with myself now. Like this workout class, I have the unlimited pass so I can do spin, I can do whatever I want at the studio, and it's so nice to have that freedom to be like, “Okay, what do I wanna do today? Boom, sign up for this.”But part of what I have is also they've got this really cool infrared sauna that's in the back, and there's only one. And so, you have to sign up for it. You can't go online and sign up because of the way it works. So you have to either go to the front desk and call in or go in and organize a time. I've had this pass since July, let's say, like last July, and I've never used the infrared sauna. And I was like, “Why? Why is that?” And it's so funny, Megan, because even then I was uncomfortable to ask the front desk woman. I was like, “Hmm, how funny. I'm paying for it. Everyone's so nice here. They'll be like, ‘Great, let me show you!’ Like no one's going to care at all.” And so, I've noticed, I feel like it's that it bleeds over into, again, questioning my space or my place in a space and how I'm showing up in this space.And so, it's just been interesting to notice when I feel very rooted and grounded and connected to my being in my body and how I'm showing up and when I'm like, “Oh, I feel like I'm walking behind myself,” if that makes any sense, trepidatious in even just like a basic ask of, “Hey, can I use this facility? How do I do that? Can I sign up?”Megan Gill: Almost like a fear of showing up kind of? Or is it there's a little bit of a fear of something? I mean, I can relate with this. I know where you’re going.Maddie McGuire: It definitely is a fear, right? I don't know exactly what it is, but yeah, it's been funny because it's like even to go to this studio, I passed it so many times before I finally signed up and went, right? So I was really afraid. I was really uncomfortable. And then I did, and I loved it. And so, I feel like there's something that's in this. I don't know if it's – I don't know. It's interesting because, initially, going to the studio, it could be it's obviously new. I don't know any of these people. Will I be accepted here? Will I feel good here? Will I fit in here? So I think there's definitely some form of that. But yeah, it, I just notice it even trickles down into like, I don't know, my movement within my body in spaces.Megan Gill: Oh, gosh, I feel like this is such an important thing that you're bringing up and something I feel like I can relate with as well. I wonder if it's something to do with being seen possibly?Maddie McGuire: Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah.Megan Gill: I'm trying to relate with you through my own experiences too, and something I've personally been working on a lot in the last year, for sure, is getting away from the anxious spin of what other people are going to think about me.So, for instance, with this front desk person, just totally being so present and rooted in myself and my system and my body and my wants and needs to not even worry about what this person is going to think about me, which I think is so hard because, as someone who's a recovering people pleaser –Maddie McGuire: Oh, same. Preach!Megan Gill: – who has constantly had these thoughts of, “What do people think about me? What do people think about my body? What do people think about how I look, and am I a good person?” All of these things and these thoughts, it's so, so difficult to be so present and to be so rooted in yourself. And I just love that you're even like acknowledging this and that this is even coming up for you and that you're even questioning why this type of stuff is happening for yourself.Maddie McGuire: Right?Megan Gill: Because we never we never talk about this shit. I, for the longest time, didn't fucking realize that I was so anxious about what other people thought about me in anything, in anything. God, it was ruling my life. And I don't know what the answer is, but I do think that something that has been really helpful that I've noticed is presence, presence, presence and knowing that we are good people with good intentions, and this person is probably not going to think anything.Maddie McGuire: No, because like you said, they're worried about themselves, right? We know that, but it's so – I've been very much so trying actively to be more present, whether that means going for a walk and not taking headphones and looking at my phone or different things, because then I feel like I'm actually more in touch when these feelings erupt inside of me to notice.And I didn't even realize this until we were talking. I went in with the intention of, “I'm gonna ask about the infrared sauna,” and then her and I were talking about other stuff, and I left, and I literally was walking out the door, took a couple steps out, and I'm like, “Go back in and ask about the infrared sauna.” I got scared even in the moment. I made myself go back in and ask, and it was a lovely conversation, and now I know how to sign up.But, again, it’s even having that awareness. I felt in my body be like, “What are you doing?” So I don't know. I think that the presence has helped so much. I think this whole year has been that exploring all that comes up with being present and how, again, there's so much duality in that moment. The duality of connecting with her and asking the question and catching myself almost, I don't know, I guess be too afraid to ask her, to go back in, and “Oh, is she gonna think I'm weird that I went back in?” And I'm just like F it, whatever. Here we go. Opening the door again!” And then the duality of yeah, the moment and like letting it unfold.So the whole year has felt like those two things kind of being held, like the new presence and what that's bringing to my mind and how I'm feeling about things, and then the experience of all of the different things that are coming up within my relationship to my body.Megan Gill: Almost like proving yourself right and/or wrong in a certain way. Which is again, I think I'm just over here geeking out because I'm sensing this freedom and the joy and the play in that, the play and getting to be like, “Okay, we're gonna take ourself out of our little comfort zone here, and we're gonna just challenge it, whatever that may be. We're gonna just challenge judging ourself for going back in to ask about the infrared sauna. We're gonna do it, so that we can prove to ourselves whatever we need to prove to ourselves.” There doesn't have to be an answer, but the fact that you did that and then I feel like that just opened a new door in a sense of even being like, “Okay –.” And I don't mean to speak for you, but what I'm gathering from you is like, “Okay, I needed to do that to sort of get over the hump of it in a way.” But what's interesting is these humps are always, always, always gonna consistently, consistently, consistently come up.Like, my god, even this morning in my yoga class, my teacher – I've been going to the studio for over two years now, which is wild. Crazy to think of that. My teacher was like, “Megan, what do you do? What do you do with your life and your work that allows you to be here at this 9:00 AM class?” And we were chatting, chatting. I told her what I did, and then I said, “Do you only teach yoga?” And then I judged myself after that conversation. I judged myself in the conversation, while it was finishing up, and after the conversation I was like, “Why did you say, ‘Did you only teach yoga?’ like you're insinuating that only teaching yoga is a bad thing, because if she wasn't doing other stuff?’” And then I was like, “Well, if you said, ‘What else do you do aside from teach yoga?’ and she didn't do anything else, then you would've made her feel bad in that sense.”So I really had to have a me-to-me moment where all these different parts of me are chitter chattering, thinking all these different things, and I had to be like, “Okay, no. It’s fine. Literally fine. She's not thinking –,” like how you were saying with the front desk person. “She's not thinking a damn thing about me. We had a lovely conversation with our teacher. So what? We're not perfect. She doesn't care.”Maddie McGuire: I love this. No, and I love this, Megan, because I feel like what this is is us examining our experience in our bodies and how we show up and what that looks like with connecting with others, connecting to ourselves, the conversations we're having. And I love that example because, you know, being in a town where I am newly making in-person friends, and I love, “Ooh, happy hour with the girls.” I was like, “Yes, let's go!” We’d go for a run on the beach all together, whatever the case may be, those in-person times to connect. And then moving to a new city in a much smaller city that doesn't have as much of an art community that I would naturally be connecting to with acting, with voiceover, with, you know, theater, all the different things, that's been something that's been super interesting is now making new friends, which has been lovely.—————Megan Gill: There are a couple things that are coming up for me and like, I don't even know what I'm trying to say around one of them, but I think there's this interesting tie between the way that we show up when we are so hyper aware of when we're in our thoughts around how our body looks and how our body's perceived and those times in our lives where we've been so like, “Oh god, I need to show up this way so that I get this thing or get this result or so that this person likes me or whatever.” And then showing up in the times when that is no longer running the show and we are able to tap in and be present and be unapologetic and show up and be like, “Yeah, this is me. Take it or leave it.” It's so effing hard when the conditioning is – and you've learned that if you do this thing and you show up in a certain way or you look this certain way that people will like you and you'll be generally accepted. And I think that like I also, I don't know, I just think that this is so much of what goes on for a lot of us.And then the theme that I keep coming back to that you brought up in the beginning of our conversation is, “How do I feel?” Not, “How do I look?” Not, “How the jeans look on me?” Not, “How does this person think I look?” It's, “How do I feel?” And I feel like all of this is connected in a sense, but I think that that piece is so important and such something that I want to shout from the rooftops, from the mountaintop, if you will. Oh, gosh. And even just recently for me, like I got this pair of jeans from Old Navy on sale for $20, and they looked so good. I was like, “I’m snatched. These look so good on me!” in the store. And then I put them back on when I got home because I'm like, “Do I really like them though?” And I was like, I think I need to return them, man, because yeah, they look good. Yeah, they make like, you know, like a lot of my jeans these days are baggier and really comfy, cozy. I can sit down and fucking breathe in them.Maddie McGuire: What a thought. Yes.Megan Gill: What a thought, and this is just what you said in the beginning about the jeans and how do I feel in them? I'm like, yeah, dude. I had a similar experience where I am gonna return them because, sure, they look good, but I don't feel good in them. And I think that leading our lives from this place of like feeling, whether it's, “How do the jeans feel on me, how do I feel in my body? How does my stomach feel when I consume certain foods? How are my energy levels? How do I feel after I go for a walk outside or take a nap.”This, I think, is such an important theme of being able to tap in and recognize and have the awareness of how you feel and switching the narrative of what we were taught and conditioned by society of the thinking, thinking, thinking, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts ruling our lives and switching it to, “How do I feel in my body?” and letting that like steer the ship more so, you know?And even in our lives with the work we're doing, it's like, “Well, how do you feel when you're doing voiceover work? Would you feel the same if you were to get back into the theatrical world and auditions were being thrown at you and you were so fucking stressed because you had all this voiceover work to get done, which is what you really love and care about, but you're trying to memorize all of these sides that you don't even really care about, and just being so real and honest and discerning with ourselves about how we want to feel in our bodies, in our lives, around the people that we share them with.Maddie McGuire: Girl, that was like, preach. I was like, “Pastor Megan is in the house!” No, honestly, Megan, what you just said, I think is so beautiful and so pertinent. That is kind of the antithesis of, I feel like the conversation we're ultimately having. And I think that that is exactly it. I ultimately know, in this moment, I'm living my life. It's happening right now. Never gonna get it back. And how I feel right now is what I'm gonna remember. I probably actually won't remember any of the bullshit going through my head. Rarely do I. Even if I think back to the moment when I left and then went back in to go ask for the sauna, I don't remember exactly what I thought; I just remember how I felt in the entire interaction. And so, it's like, yeah, what would being so cognizant and aware and almost prioritizing the feeling, how would that shift how we serve ourselves and, again, create because that's ultimately the experience, right, is like the feeling of what's happening. And I feel like once you start getting more connected to that, you can't depart from the feeling.Megan Gill: It's like once you see it kind of a thing, but once you feel it, you can't unfeel it.Maddie McGuire: Yeah, truthfully, right? Because it's like, you know how there's always, they call it like bottoms up or top down, to self-soothe or different things in therapy? That's not the word of soothing, but it's like, “Bottoms up.” We can essentially use a technique to calm the body down and then work with the mind, or some people, specifically people who have ADHD, sometimes that is hard for them to do. So it's actually better to go top down and maybe play a game of Solitaire while they're talking about something, so their brain actually has something to do while they're organizing through their thoughts and feelings. And I feel like when I started learning about that, I'm like, oh yeah, how funny that we instantly go to the brain to help ourselves when the body is so much larger than just the brain. Why are we not utilizing that more? And I feel like that's kind of what we're discussing. That's the feeling, and this is the thinking.Yeah, that's how I'm starting to feel even in life as I'm putting on clothes to go out, as I'm walking into a restaurant with my husband or to meet a friend, noticing what the hell is going on feeling-wise inside.Megan Gill: And how that brings you into presence and allows you to show up as your truest self, I would imagine, because we’re not stirring in our brains and we're not overthinking and we're not in the anxiety spin or the thinking about the past. We're right here. We're able to fully show up and just allow our hearts to be open.Oh, gosh, it's so interesting also because as actors and performers we've studied this for so long and we're so used to doing this type of work, what a cool thing that we're able to talk about and share today. It's like, “Oh gosh. This is what I want for all of us. I wish I had this ten years ago for my little actor self,” you know?Maddie McGuire: Oh, preach, girl. I know. I can't even imagine. I go back to my cute, little actor self ten years ago and what if she got to listen to this conversation! What's so cool too, Megan, is I had no idea where this conversation was gonna go when we started. Who knew we'd end up here, but here we are. And I'm like my little 22-year-old actor self I think just would've felt so seen so much earlier than I did actually finally feel seen.Megan Gill: And safe to actually be or explore what it is to “be yourself!” We're told as actors, “Be yourself,” in different ways, whether it's in your slate or like bringing piece of yourself to the character or just showing up as ourselves onstage even if we're playing a character. But it's so hard to connect to yourself if there's such a disconnect to your body and to yourself.Maddie McGuire: Well, and I think you and I have probably seen that not only have we experienced that probably as young actors – and you could tell. You could tell when someone is like technically a very, very good actor and they work their ass off, but that there's a disconnect because they're not rooted within who they are or they're wanting to use acting as kind of like a scapegoat to not be seen or heard as they are. But yet you will never be able to fully depart from yourself.Megan Gill: Right.Maddie McGuire: I always say it's the relationship we obviously need to prioritize is you literally never can get away from you. From the time that you are born to the time that you are not here, you're with you every step of the way.“  That was a gift that I feel like being in creative circles, being in creativity, on one hand there were times where I was overly critical about what my body looked like. And then there was this beautiful time period and season where I remember just being so rooted in myself and rooted. I had so much self-trust in what was gonna happen and what I was gonna do. And I was way more connected to the storytelling aspect than the character, than how it looked on screen and what the end product ended up being.    And so, I think that part of me is exploring, now that I'm not currently in that type of a creative community or circle, not to replicate that feeling or that thing, but what does that mean or look like now?”- Maddie McGuireMaddie is a certified coach and a SAG-AFTRA performer. She’s been in the entertainment industry for over a decade and is obsessed with storytelling. She’s done over 100+ voiceover jobs, booked national commercials, guest stars, indie features, and print jobs. She’s also created her own projects that have gotten into film festivals and has written TV pilots that were semi-finalists in writing competitions… And she’s never stopped growing, learning, and expanding her skillset and definition of who she is as an artist…. AND as a business owner steering the ship of her career.Maddie’s Personal InstagramMaddie’s Coaching InstagramMaddie’s WebsiteMaddie is currently recording season 2 of her podcast Get Messy - and she’s VERY excited about some of the amazing women I've already been interviewing. Spotify Link / Apple Podcasts LinkThe Mountain is You - Brianna WiestSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my wonderful friend and fellow creative Scarlett Dyer to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Scarlett and I met when we both first moved to Los Angeles in 2019 through the Crash Acting community, and we have been friends ever since. Scarlett is an actor, a fashion designer, a costume designer, a writer, and an activist. She designed the wardrobe for my short film, “A Broadway Body,” and she has recently written an original feature film screenplay featuring a female lead who’s in a wheelchair.Scarlett is a bright, shiny, vibrant incredible force of a human being, not to mention extraordinarily talented, and I am so thrilled for you to hear our conversation. We discuss all things ableism in Hollywood, how Scarlett is working to normalize leading roles that feature disabled actors, and her experience of existing in a wheelchair as an actor. She is making such an impact in the many different creative areas she lives in, and I cannot wait to see where she is ten years from now.“ When I'm out with my friends at a bar just, like, living my normal life and some old man comes up to me and is like, “I just think it's so great that you're out living your life. You are out in public at night having fun. Good for you,” or someone else is like, “Um, you don't look like you need a wheelchair. Why are you in a wheelchair?” Like, excuse me. Don't look —? What is that? What is that? Talk about body image. Like, what is that? What is that? Because I don't look classified disabled to you? That is so offensive, not only to me, but the entire community because it comes in all different shapes, sizes, forms, everything. ”- Scarlett DyerScarlett Dyer: Yes, I did just write a screenplay. It is a romcom, and it's called Get Lucky. It's set in Ireland. I went to Ireland about a year ago, and I was just so inspired, and I had so many just ideas coming to me driving around in a van and looking at cows and sheep and I was like, “This is so a romcom. This needs to be romcom.” And I was like, “I have to write this.”Megan Gill: I love that.Scarlett Dyer: I literally took things that actually happened and implemented it in a more dramatic way. So it's very close to home to me. And it features a female lead who uses a wheelchair because I'm a wheelchair user, and as an actor and a writer and a designer, that's really what I want to bring into the industry and to the world is a greater representation for this community because it has been so, so underrepresented. And we need a female lead in a romcom who is not tokenized, who is a real person, who is iconic and fun and badass, the whole nine. We need that. We need to see that. So yeah, I wrote it.Megan Gill: You wrote it, Scarlett! You wrote the damn thing. And also she sounds a lot like the energy that you bring and the energy that you give.Scarlett Dyer: Oh, I channeled myself. I sort of wrote what I know I guess.Megan Gill: Right? Isn't that what all the advice tells us to do?Scarlett Dyer: That's what they all say, just write what you know! And so, I was like, “Okay!” The character, she is different from me in a lot of ways. She's fictionalized. She has things that are a lot different from me, but we share the same disability. In that way we share similarities due to that. But she's different from me, yeah. I wanted to make sure of that.Megan Gill: Oh, I'm just so glad that you are writing this role, and would the goal be for you to play her?Scarlett Dyer: I definitely want to play the role, for sure, for sure, for sure. So this is kind of like the first thing I've written. This is my first feature film that I've written, original feature film. But I don't really know where to begin with producing, so I definitely think I might need some help with that area, just getting it to the right people and, you know, me making friends in that kind of way, but acting in it, yes, I'm so down for that. Yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah. I love that, and I think that's really important and an important way to get your voice out into the world, not only as the writer but also as the person portraying the role as well.Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you for saying that.Megan Gill: Of course. When I look at you and I look at the work that you're writing and the work that you do and how you show up in acting class and how you show up in the commercials that you're in, and I'm just frickin’ cheering you on because you're right, we do need more representation, and it's unfortunate that the cultural norm just chooses to leave disability out of the conversation a lot of times. They choose to leave a lot of things out, but it's like, this is something I feel like that we are starting to see a little bit more and more, but it’s not the norm. It’s not the go-to, right?Scarlett Dyer: It’s really not. It's really not. Yeah, it's overlooked, and I am all about representation for all communities, for all marginalized groups. But yeah, you know, the disabled community has been so overlooked. And even going into auditions for these roles, like “wheelchair user,” they don't know what they're looking for. Are you looking for a manual wheelchair? Are you looking for a power wheelchair? It's different and sometimes they don't quite know what to expect, and that can also conflict with casting and it kind of can make it awkward sometimes. And it's like, “Well are you able to do this? Are you able to move your arms in this way and do this sort of thing?” And it's kind of like that sort of dehumanizes it in a way.So I just really, with this script, it really shows how this character lives her life, and that is really what I wanted to show.Megan Gill: I feel like that hits for me for you, being able to show up as you are and not have it questioned, not have someone ask you something.Scarlett Dyer: I get asked so many things.Megan Gill: I can only imagine. But also it’s so devastating and sad because that just falls down like the emotional labor of that –Scarlett Dyer: Yeah.Megan Gill: – constantly, I can imagine, is coming back to you and coming back to you. And yes, there's a lack of education in general in society, in our cultureScarlett Dyer: Yeah, there is.Megan Gill: But then showing up in a space, like in the casting office and having these questions asked of you, where we're already, you know, as actors, a lot of times you're showing up to an audition in person. The nerves are already there, and it's not fair for them to be tenfold because you're like, “Well, are they gonna ask me something out of pocket today? What weird question am I gonna have to answer today?”Scarlett Dyer: And don't get me wrong, there have been so many, so many cool instances where they're so nice and so cool and like so accepting and excited to be casting differently-abled roles. But sometimes they'll just expect that I can do something, and then I show up to the thing and it's like I can't do it. And even some of the things my agent sends me – I had to have a meeting with them and just say, “This is kind of hard for me to do, these kinds of things.” Because doing self-tapes even when it's like, “Okay, well, they're obviously not gonna pick me because I can't do this activity,” you know?Megan Gill: Mm-hmm.Scarlett Dyer: Or I can do it, but I can do it in a different way – in my own way.Megan Gill: You can do it in your own way, right.Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, where it's like, I'm not sure they're gonna go for that. They're just gonna want somebody who can do it easily, quote “normally,” which I hate.Megan Gill: Yeah, I hate that too. I'm sitting here thinking do you ever put yourself on tape for those roles where you're like, “They're probably not going to cast me because I quote unquote ‘can't do this’ the way they're probably gonna quote unquote ‘want to see it?’”Scarlett Dyer: I still do.Megan Gill: Okay, I love that. I love to hear that.Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, I still do. Thank you. That’s so supportive!Megan Gill: Even though I know mentally it potentially could be taxing I to have the preconceived notion that maybe you won't book it, but it's only because I've been there in my own ways as an actor.Scarlett Dyer: Absolutely.Megan Gill: And I don't mean to speak for you in that matter.Scarlett Dyer: No, no, no. That is so accurate. And it's also like, okay, are they gonna see this and be like, “Hmm, nice try sweetie”? And that thought kind of makes me be like sometimes I don't want to do it. But then I over think that, and I'm like, “No, I'm getting in front of these people. It’s fine. I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna do my best.” And yeah, I just recently did one for a makeup brand and they wanted – I do my makeup in a very unique way, and it's not typical, “Get ready with me.”Megan Gill: You did a tutorial, and you shared it!Scarlett Dyer: I did share it.Megan Gill: And it was incredible, and I'm so glad you did that. It’s also so badass.Scarlett Dyer: Thank you. That means everything. I love makeup. I've taught myself how to do makeup in my own way. And so yeah, they were like, “Show us how you – show us a little makeup routine.” So I did. I did one for them, and I didn't hear back, and I was kind of getting my hopes up a little because I was like, “Oh, maybe they'll want to feature this unique way of doing makeup.” But it's okay. I don't let it get to me. I just am like, “That's fine. Next!”Megan Gill: I can see a world in which somebody is going to represent you in that way, someone's gonna be like, “Her. We want her, and we want her way of doing it.”Scarlett Dyer: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really special.Megan Gill: It would be incredible to see a beauty spot where you are doing the makeup in your own way.Scarlett Dyer: I know. Thank you for saying that.Megan Gill: It's not just you doing it in your own way; you're representing this whole community of people.Scarlett Dyer: I would love if someone with any sort of disability went into Sephora and saw a video of a makeup brand. You know how they have little displays or something. I would love that if it was like, “Oh my god, look how she's doing her makeup. Maybe I should try it that way. Who is that?”Megan Gill: I'm getting chills!Scarlett Dyer: Megan! You're making me get jealous. I want to see that too.Megan Gill: I want to see that for you and for everyone who moves in this world in – I don’t mean to say in an unconventional way, but in a way that society doesn't deem as –Scarlett Dyer: As conventional, as normal.Megan Gill: The way it’s represented in the mass media.Scarlett Dyer: Yes. Yes, and it’s all about adaptation, really, my body and how I move, how I work, how I do all of the things that I love, like how I draw and all these things. I’ve taught myself through years, and I've never had a bitter bone in my body about using a chair or having, quote, “limitations.” I don't see it as limitations. I see it as kind of my thing, you know?Megan Gill: Yes, girl. I know, and as your friend, someone who loves you, you're going to get hired for that. I know it. I know it, and the fact that you believe that deep down, I mean, just like everything, it radiates out of you at all moments. The whole time that I've known you, I've always received that type of energy from you, which I also think is really important for you to be representing the disabled community in the media with this type of energy.Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, thank you for saying that because there's so much taboo around it. I don't know if you've seen, I've been making funny videos about it, literally things people have said to me and how I wish I responded. And it's things like that and things I run into on a daily basis. It's like this wall in my apartment. Let's just normalize this. It's human. I'm not an alien.I love having conversations with people like you about this, and there's a special way to have the conversation, and it's like not coming up to somebody and being like, “Hey, why are you in a wheelchair?” It's befriending the person and then being like, “So can I ask you about your, and how you – because you're so – the way you move and like the way you work is so cool, and I just want to know more about it.” That is okay with me. I love talking about that. But if it's like said in a rude way, like, “So, like, why are you in a wheelchair”Megan Gill: Yeah, no. That should never be a thing that's said to you.Scarlett Dyer: No, and it has, and it's okay. I've grown used to it. It's mainly from random strangers, so I try not to let it bother me. It’s so fucking awkward when I'm out with my friends at a bar just living my normal life and some old man comes up to me and is like, “I just think it's so great that you're out living your life. You're out in public at night having fun. Good for you,” or someone else is like, “You don't look like you need a wheelchair. Why are you in a wheelchair?” Like, excuse me? I don't look –? What is that? What is that? That is body image. Like, what is that? What is that, because I don't look classified disabled to you? That is so offensive not only to me, but the entire community because it comes in all different shapes, sizes, forms, everything. It's so offensive.—Megan Gill: So in light of what you're writing, you are writing this piece for a wheelchair user, right? You mention that a lot of times you'll go in for an audition, maybe for a commercial where the breakdown says wheelchair user. Is the professional life you’re living as an actor right now; are you being sent out for this breakdown that does not mention a wheelchair user? Is that very much in your talks with agents and everything?Scarlett Dyer: I would say 70-80% of the things my agent sends me, I would say that percentage is non-wheelchair roles. It's just like Gen Z, cool, hip vibe. And that was the Venmo thing. They did not cast a wheelchair, and that's what made me so fucking happy. Same with I booked an AT&T commercial.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, congrats, girl!Scarlett Dyer: Thank you! I filmed it in the early fall. But you know what? Commercials are great. Commercials are great, but sometimes mm. So yeah, that percentage of commercial work is non-wheelchair specifying, but I do get some that are like, “We want a wheelchair.”And then in terms of theatrical, most of the things they send me are wheelchair users, which is interesting. Yeah, but some of the things they send me are also non-wheelchair, like this person is just a 20-something-year-old.Megan Gill: The breakdown doesn’t specify?Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, and my headshots, they show a peek of the chair. I know, it's cute. I worked with Cathryn Farnsworth and she's the fucking best.Megan Gill: Your chair is not the star.Scarlett Dyer: She's not the star, but like she’s the supporting. Her name is Beth. I actually need a new one.Megan Gill: Scarlett plus Beth. You get both of us when you book.Scarlett Dyer: Look, it's a package deal, baby. It's a package deal. I worked with Cathryn Farnworth, and oh, my god, she was so amazing to work with. Ugh, I love her. We wanted to show pieces of the chair, so when I get sent in for non-wheelchair-user roles – and my agents have told me, “We submit you for non-wheelchair roles,” and I'm like, “Thank you!” And they're like, “Of course.” They're like, “You're a cool, hip girl.” I'm like, “Thank you. But we just need to show the chair in the picture, so they know, so it's not weird like when you get to the audition and it's like, “Oh, shocker.” I understand that, but, at the same time, why is it like that?Megan Gill: Why is it like that? Why can’t you just show up as you and have that be accepted? And have that be like, “Hi, welcome, Scarlett!” You’re literally incredible.Scarlett Dyer: Thank you. I know. That's what I want to change. That's what I want to change. And that's why playing Juliet was so impactful for me because this famous Shakespearean character is not canonically in a wheelchair. However, that does not mean that she could not have been in a wheelchair. Juliet very possibly could have been a wheelchair user, and we just wanted to show this amazing, sexy show. It was just so special and meaningful to me.And our director, Emilia, who you know. She directed your iconic film. She was just so, so sweet, and the way she worked around my chair and the way she had the stage arranged, and the way she had Romeo around, it was just so beautiful, and I am forever, forever grateful for her for that because that’s how it always should be. I don't want it to ever be awkward for people. And I feel like a lot of times, sometimes it's like, “Oh, well, where are we gonna put her? Where is the chair gonna fit?” you know, this kind of thing. And it's like, “No, let's arrange the set around your chair. Let's arrange the acting around it. Let's include your chair in the acting. Because that’s what I do. Obviously when I'm acting, I have movement, and my chair is kind of an extension of me, so I just include it in the movements of my body. So yeah, it was just really special.Megan Gill: Thank you for speaking on that because I think that is huge, and what an impactful experience for you. And even just speaking about what my experience of entering Crash was, and I think you were already in class. You were one of my first scene partners.Scarlett Dyer: I was. I think I was. What scene did we do?Scarlett Dyer: Oh my God. It was The Favorite.Megan Gill: But I remember coming into your night of class, and there was no question about whether or not you could move around the space.Scarlett Dyer: None, and that’s also the acting teacher and the class, Ben.Megan Gill: Of course, it’s a huge testament to Ben and the whole community. But for me to come in and see that it was just incredible as a witness.Scarlett Dyer: That's so meaningful.Megan Gill: And it speaks volumes of Ben Mathes and also the community.Scarlett Dyer: It really does. The Crash community is so beautiful and so loving, and no one has ever, ever – Ben, I don't even have words. I hope he is listening. Ben, I hope you're listening.Megan Gill: Hi, Ben!Scarlett Dyer: Hi, Ben! I literally, I don't even have words for what he has done for me. I was so unsure. I was like, “I want to be an actor, but I don't know if I'm accepted in this space.” And he was just like, “Shut the fuck up. You are.” He literally was just like, “No, here's your ramp. Get the fuck on the stage and do it.” The support he has given and the community of Crash, it's just like no one has ever, ever been like, “Oh, well, I don't know if I can do this scene with Scarlett because this character isn't a wheelchair user.” No, it's never been like that. It's never been like that.Scarlett Dyer: And I love this community. It's so loving, and all of my friends, like, hello. I literally would have no friends if I didn't have Crash.Megan Gill: Literally same.Scarlett Dyer: So if you're looking to audit an acting class, I highly recommend Crash Acting.Megan Gill: Crash Acting. It’s the place to go. You won't regret it.Scarlett Dyer: You won't regret it. You will literally cry every time, but in the best way.Megan Gill: Oh, my god. It's true. I'm bawling every single class.Okay, my heart, even just expressing that you wanted to act, you wanted to be an actor, because you went to school for fashion design.Scarlett Dyer: I did.Megan Gill: And you didn’t act during that period of time?Scarlett Dyer: I did. So I've kind of always acted. I've gone through different ups and downs and stages in my life where I was like, “Oh yes! I want to be an actor!” But then when I was little, yes, it was like I want to be on stage. I used to want to be a singer. I used to want to sing onstage. Then I kind of got into the teenage years and it was kind of like I let others' opinions get to me. And this is a really sad story, but I feel like it needs to be shared.So, when I was in high school, I auditioned for Liesl in The Sound of Music, and I was like, “Okay, I love fashion, I love acting, but I really want to do this. I really want to act. I love singing. I want to do it. I'm gonna audition.” And I was so excited, and I got to the audition. I did it. And then after that the teacher, who was also the choir teacher and I was in chorus, I knew her. I was never really her favorite. She had favorites. She had favorites, as they all do.Megan Gill: I was gonna say, they always do.Scarlett Dyer: There's always a boy and a girl that are just, “Oh, they're so perfect! They're the perfect musical theater!”Megan Gill: Oh, I hate it.Scarlett Dyer: And I don't consider myself a musical theater actor. This was just the high school play. It happened to be Sound of Music because basic, but anywayMegan Gill: We did Sound of Music in high school too.Scarlett Dyer: Of course you did! It's so basic. Were you in it?Megan Gill: No. I didn't make it.Scarlett Dyer: Me either, girl. So here's the tea. I literally didn't get a callback. They had callbacks for this small-town, high-school fucking play. And I was like, cool, cool. I wasn't bitter. I was just like, “Okay, maybe I need to improve a little.” Maybe I need to take lessons, singing lessons, acting like, whatever.So I went to the choir teacher slash director, and I said, “So I'm just curious, is there something I can work on to, you know, perfect – or not perfect, but get better at my craft of what I want to do?” And she was like, “Sweetie, no. You have the voice; you have the talent. It's just this show requires dancing, and you can't dance. And also Liesl is the tallest of the Von Trapp children, and you are in your chair, and you're shorter than the youngest. So it would just look weird in the lineup. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be right for you to be on this stage in this show.” And that kind of broke me. That really fucking broke me. I'm not gonna lie.After that it was like, stage fright. Nope. No. I'll study fashion. I'll costume design. Yeah, I started with costume design, but then I turned into fashion, and I was like, okay, I can have my acting in this way. I can be a part of that community through designing the clothes for the actors. And it made me sick because what I really wanted to do was act and then I got here.Megan Gill: Wait, so can you give me a timeline of about how old you were when that conversation happened?Scarlett Dyer: I was 16 when that happened. Yeah, and then I moved out here when I was 18, and my mom was just like, “Look, fuck these hoes. I think you need to do this. you’re a fucking actor since day one. You've always wanted to be on stage. Do it. What are you doing? Do it.”So I stayed in fashion school, and I'm so glad I did because I loved it. But I got signed with an agency, and I was so happy. And then I got in Crash, and I told Ben the whole trauma story of that, and my entire world shifted on its head. I was literally like, “No, fuck that. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make a change in the industry and in the world, and I'm not gonna say her name because I don't want to get called out, but you know who you're girl.Megan Gill: You know what you did.Scarlett Dyer: You know what you did. So yeah, and this is the head space – of course, I still get in my head like, you know, as we all do. It’s the not only am I good enough, but also what if they chicken out and they're like, “Oh, we're just gonna cast an able-bodied person and put them in a wheelchair.” Like, “Ugh, this is too much work.”Megan Gill: No, no, no, no, no.Scarlett Dyer: Like, no. And that's a huge thing now. So I still have that fear, but I know I'm gonna do my damnedest to change it, to change that whole thought process and scenario.Megan Gill: We need you, and we need your voice. And I'm so, so proud – proud of you? I'm proud of your mom.Scarlett Dyer: I know. I'm so grateful for her.Megan Gill: I don't know, proud of her feels like a weird thing to say, but it's like I'm so glad that she advocated for you and that you advocated for yourself.Scarlett Dyer: Oh my god, let me tell you about this woman. Oh my god, she raised me the way I am to be like nothing can stop me. Nothing can stop me. She never ever was like, “You can't do that because you're in a wheelchair,” ever. My dad also, but my mom and I have a different relationship, and we're honestly more like sisters, it feels like a lot of the time. And we vibe on – we're just so similar. She fought for me so many times.There was another instance where I auditioned for this new theater program. I was 13, and the stage was not accessible, so I couldn't even – the auditions were on the stage. I couldn't even get on the stage to do the audition, so I had to do the stage on the floor in front of everyone, and the room was full of everyone, every teenager in the upstate New York area who was auditioning, and I was terrified. I did a monologue from Twilight, and I did the “Flightless Bird” song in the prom scene in Twilight. I sang that shit, and everyone else did musical theater, and I was like, “Nope. I'm gonna do Twilight.Megan Gill: “I’m gonna do my own thing. Hell yeah.”Scarlett Dyer: So I didn't get in, and the guy, the director of the thing, called my mom and was like, “We wanted more than anything to get Scarlett in here, but we just can't because the stage isn’t inaccessible,” and my mom was like, “So build a fucking ramp,” and he was like, “It's in a school, so we don't have the rights to do that.” “So ask the school’s superintendent or whatever,” and he was like, “We don't have the –.” It was just excuse after excuse after excuse. And finally she was like, “Okay, then find a different space. If you really want her to be a part of your project, you can find something that will accommodate her.” And he was like, “We don't have the funds for that.” So she was just like, “Okay, this is gonna devastate her, but okay.”So that was sort of the first breaking point, and then the Sound of Music thing happened, and I was like, “Oh cool, I'm gonna – I'm done. No.” Then I moved to LA, and I was like –Megan Gill: Bye, bitches!Scarlett Dyer: Bye, bitches! Bye, upstate New York! No, not that there's anything wrong with upstate New York, but you know.Megan Gill: Right. Totally. But it's that way that certain educators are approaching the conversation around not just different shapes of able-bodied humans, but not to mention that disabled humans are in the mix too.Scarlett Dyer: Uh-huh, and I love what you talk about body image in all shapes and sizes and everything. That so goes hand-in-hand with this. It really does because I feel like sometimes they just don't see it.Megan Gill: And it's about representation of all communities, like you were saying.Scarlett Dyer: Yeah, and I don't want to come off like I'm only fighting for the disabled community.Megan Gill: But you're also an advocate for that specific community.Scarlett Dyer: I'm also an advocate for this community because I'm a part of it, but I'm an advocate for all communities who are underrepresented, and that is my goal as an artist is to make everyone feel welcome and comfortable and seen. So yeah, it goes all around.Megan Gill: I think that's really special and really important, and we need more artists and creatives like you trying to really get representation in all of these different spaces.Scarlett Dyer: Yes.Megan Gill: Like in the media across the freaking board.Scarlett Dyer: Across the board. I told you this before we started recording, but the way you see people and the way you represent body image is just so meaningful, and you post so many beautiful things that I'm just like, wow, that actually made my day. If I'm having a shitty day or whatever, like today. I was having a shitty day. I'm no longer having a shitty day. We’ve turned that day around, honey. But being here with you, you are so just magnetic and sweet and adoring and accepting, and you always make everyone feel comfortable, so thank you. We need more artists like you as well.“ I don't even have words for what [Ben Mathes] has done for me. I was so unsure. I was like, “I want to be an actor, but I don't know if I'm accepted in this space.” And he was just like, “Shut the fuck up. You are.” He literally was just like, “No, here's your ramp. Get the fuck on the stage, and do it.” The support he has given and the community of Crash, it's just like no one has ever, ever been like, “Oh, well, I don't know if I can do this scene with Scarlett because this character isn't a wheelchair user.” No, it's never been like that. It's never been like that.”- Scarlett DyerScarlett Dyer is an actor, fashion/costume designer, writer & advocate based in Los Angeles. Originally from Upstate NY, Scarlett moved to L.A. after high school to study fashion design at FIDM and pursue her love of acting. Since moving here in 2017, Scarlett has shown a runway collection, starred in a production of Romeo & Juliet, costumed multiple shows, been featured in national commercials and co-wrote a rom-com with her badass mom. One of her goals as an artist is to bring inclusivity into all phases of the industry especially for those with different-abilities.Email: [email protected]: www.imdb.com/name/nm1527567/Website: www.houseofscarlettdesigns.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/scarlett.dyerKeep an eye out for Scarlett’s upcoming feature film “Get Lucky!”Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: This conversation contains discussion of eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and weight loss drugs. There is a lot of nuance in our conversation around cultural conditioning of weight gain stigma and the stigma of weight loss drugs. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone please welcome my dear friend and fellow actor Kacie Patricia to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Kacie and I met at Crash Acting and instantly hit it off. She’s an insanely talented actor, a sweet angel of a human being, and I can’t wait for you to hear her story.In our conversation, Kacie opens up about her body image story and how seeking weight loss drugs pulled her out of a toxic, all-or-nothing body image cycle. Her vulnerability to share about her journey was so brave, and I feel so grateful to have a space where my guests feel safe enough to open up about some really tough topics. Kacie walked us through her story from when she was young until now. She shares about how her all-or-nothing mentality sabotaged how she’s previously tried to care for her body, and she opens up about how her past silent suffering, shame cycles, and how her journey of seeking weight loss medication has forced her to open up and talk about her body image struggles.Kacie’s vulnerability opened my eyes and my heart, and I hope hearing her story does the same for you.“ All we can do is just keep talking about it and just trying to change it and giving ourselves safe spaces to talk to each other about it. Because it’s felt really, really, really healing for me, this conversation specifically, but just this past year in therapy and the journey that I've gone on. I healed a part of myself that I did not know needed to be healed, or I started to at least. We’re never fully healed. But those insecurities will always be there.”- Kacie PatriciaKacie Patricia: When I think about my body image, the word impossible comes up. I feel like I've had an impossible relationship with my body for literally as long as I can remember. I probably wanna say it started in middle school, even before. But when I think about it, it's interesting because I'm like, well, I never had anybody tell me that I was fat or looked different. It's society that makes you feel that way. It's like I was never told or felt a certain way, you know? I don't know. I'm trying to pinpoint in my mind the moment where I was like, “Oh, I don't feel good about myself,” or “I don't look like my friends,” or “I don't look like this person,” or “How do I look like this person?” and there really isn't a moment, but there’s obviously magazines and TV and all the girls that I looked up to as a kid and friends.And so, when I think about when I was younger, some of the big moments that stand out were my mom would always look at herself in the mirror and grab her stomach or the sides of her body and be like, “Oh my god, I'm so fat. Oh my god, I'm so fat.” And I would see that and I never said anything. I never really said anything until I was older. But that was really detrimental to the way that I was thinking about myself as a tween.Megan Gill: Like the witnessing of that over and over again.Kacie Patricia: The witnessing of that.Megan Gill: Of what it subconsciously does to you kind of thing?Kacie Patricia: Yeah, exactly. And I remember my best friend in middle school had a really, really, really intense relationship with her body. And she would not eat for days, and she would go to the gym and run on the treadmill for hours and burn thousands of calories at a time. And she would go to these really, really extreme lengths for days at a time to try to achieve this body. And she always talked about how she thought she was so fat or she can't eat this today, or she can eat this next week or not today. And I just remember I personally never felt like I wanted to do those things to myself. But seeing how intense it got for her, I was like, “Oh my God. If she feels this way about herself, how should I be feeling about myself? Oh my God. Something is going on here.” But also we were kids, so it was just like we weren't thinking about it that deeply, you know? It was just kind of like, “This is intense, but, you know, we're in middle school, so.”But yeah, it was really, really, really intense. And she was my closest friend from like seventh, eighth, ninth grade. And then I remember kind of realizing as we got older that she was just bigger boned, you know? Her body wasn't made to be so tiny, and she was working towards this body that she was never gonna be able to achieve most likely without starving herself and making herself sick. And it was really, really sad to see. Looking back, I haven't thought about this in like a really long time, actually. I hope she's doing well, and I hope that she's worked on that relationship and it's really, really sad to think about how intense she was feeling and these extreme lengths she was going to at such a young age. We were, like, 12, 13 years old. I think I remember telling my mom about it and my mom feeling really bad, but it definitely started making me think about myself more.I remember she was just a little bit bigger than me. She was taller than me. She always had a flat stomach and a proportionate body. It was just like her legs were a little bit bigger and her shoulders were a little bit broader. She was just a little bit bigger. That was it. And I think I always was smaller, and maybe she thought she was trying to achieve the way I looked or our other friends looked, when it was just like never gonna happen for her. And it was just really, really, really sad to think that was happening at such a young age.Kacie Patricia: But for me, I think the biggest issues for me have always been I’ve never had a flat stomach my entire life.Megan Gill: Girl, can I relate with you on that?Kacie Patricia: Never, and I've always thought, “Okay, there's something wrong with me. Everything else looks okay. But this is a part of me that I just cannot figure out.”Megan Gill: Yeah. Right, “Why me? Why do I have this bump when all my friends –.” Ever since I was a kid, ever since I was a child I've always had it. It's always been with me, and looking at my friends’ stomachs and being like, “Well, wait. I don’t get it! The math isn’t mathing!”Kacie Patricia: Yes. Right. The math isn't math thing at all. Yeah, now I'm thinking about things that I haven't thought about in a while that I guess I did go to some extreme lengths starting in, like, eighth grade, freshman year of high school.I remember when this friend specifically, we were starting to talk to boys. It was when I had my first kiss that summer, and then all of a sudden we were like going to each other's lake houses and like wearing bikinis, but I didn't feel comfortable in a bikini, and I was like, “Okay, now I have to do something about this.” My body was starting to form and fill out, and then all of a sudden I wanted to look good for boys and whatever.And I remember the summer going into freshman year of high school, I decided that I wasn't going to eat and that I was gonna come home off the bus and run, like, a mile before my parents got home, so they didn't know that I was doing it. For me, it was always silent suffering. It was like nobody could know that I felt this way about myself. That's literally how it's been up until this year of my life, to be honest. It's like nobody could know that I'm insecure about this. If I never talk about it, nobody will ever know. Nobody will ever think anything.Megan Gill: And it'll just magically change and then that’s that.Kacie Patricia: Exactly. Yeah, and in a way, the silent suffering was just a way of pretending it wasn't really there and not acknowledging it. And so, I didn't realize how much it was really affecting me until much later in life.But yeah, I remember this one summer I was not eating and running when I got home from school, and then that was not working for me. I literally maybe did a couple days, and then I was like, “I can't do this anymore. This is not sustainable,” and then I would go right back to just regular life. And that was kind of a cycle that went on for the next five/ten years of my life. It was just like something would make me feel really bad about myself, and then that day I would decide, “Okay, I'm not gonna eat,” or “I'm going to eat just one thing, and then I'm gonna exercise so much, and I'm gonna do that for the next however long it takes, and if I just do that, then I'll be good. Then I’ll be good.”Megan Gill: “Then I'll like my body, and I'll like the way I look, and I will be better and therefore worthy.” Like, all of those types of thoughts that pop up for you?Kacie Patricia: Mm-hmm. Yes. “If I could just do this one thing, then everything would be better, and then I'll feel good about myself, and I won't have to worry about it,” thinking it was so simple. It was never sustainable for me. I never was able to commit to doing anything like that for longer than, like, a day or two. Yeah, never longer than that. And for that reason, I think I always told myself, “You're fine. You don't have an eating disorder. You don't have these things. Think about people who are starving themselves and making themselves throw up all the time. You've never done that, so you're just like everybody else.”And so, I think I like sort of gaslit myself into thinking that this was just normal behavior and normal thoughts to have. And that it wasn't actually that bad, even though it was–Megan Gill: That it wasn't actually affecting you in the ways that it actually was, yeah.Kacie Patricia: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking because I wasn't going too extreme, so I couldn't keep up with it for more than a day, that it wasn't really that extreme for me.Megan Gill: Right. That it wasn't an actual disordered eating pattern, ir that it wasn't deemed worthy of an actual diagnosis, per se?Kacie Patricia: Yeah.Megan Gill: I can relate with you on that as well. It wasn't until much later in life that I realized that I truly, really was struggling with some semblance of an eating disorder, and I never thought for one second – I just thought that it was, oh, I was dieting, and I was in control of what I was eating and how much I was exercising, and I was in control of my body.Kacie Patricia:Right.Megan Gill: And therefore this isn't not an eating disorder because I'm not purging or I'm not, for lack of a better term, starving myself. I'm not going to such extreme lengths, and therefore I don't have a problem.Kacie Patricia: Exactly.Megan Gill: But in reality it's wild how I feel like it's very downplayed societally, these like little tendencies that can really fuck a person up, coupled with seeing celebrities in magazines and the way women's bodies are spoken about on social media and in the media. It's like we're receiving all these messages and, yeah, I think it's so normalized that we are like, “Okay, this is fine. Everyone's doing it.” At least at that point in my life, it was kind of like that for me.I didn't mean to jump in there, but it's like, oh, my god, I can very much relate with that. And I love the way that you said you gaslit yourself because same.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, yeah. Right, it felt like, “Well, I don't have anorexia or bulimia, so therefore I don't have an eating disorder.” And then just because I'm having these thoughts, you know, doesn't mean that I'm sick or have some sort of diagnosis. That's how it felt. It was like, “If I'm not doing these two things, then I'm good.”Megan Gill: Right. I’m in the clear. I’m okay. Yeah.Kacie Patricia: Right. But yeah, going back to what you're saying about magazines and shows and movies and music and everything that we see growing up, it's like, while I was never told, “You are bigger. You need to lose weight,” it was like I've never been told that by anybody in my life - not my mom, not my family, not my friends. I've never felt anybody has ever made a comment to me, that I know of, that's about my weight or how I look. It doesn't matter at all. It's society, the things that we're seeing when we grow up that shape our brains and how we think about ourselves that are doing the damage.Megan Gill: Yeah, that piece right there, I'm sitting here going, “Thank goodness no one ever commented on your body in those ways.”Kacie Patricia: Right. Imagine what that could have done on top of everything else if that had happened.Megan Gill: Right. A lot of times people discount people in bigger bodies for having an eating disorder, when it's like, in reality, you can be in a bigger body and have an eating disorder. That is such a thing, and it's wild to think that anyone would ever discount that. And just with that piece of info being said, so many people of so many different body types from so many different backgrounds, so many people struggle with this because of society. And then, like you said, coupled on top of their own personal experiences socially, relationally, in educational systems, with whatever conditioning they've been fed and the messaging they've grown up hearing and continue to hear, it's just such a systemic issue. It's so, so deep and runs so deep that everyone – it's very interesting because I truly believe everyone has a body image story to tell.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, 100%.Megan Gill: No matter who you are, no matter what you look like. You know, because society likes to be like, “Oh, you look like that so you're “perfect.”” But it's like, “Mm, what is “perfect”? I’m sorry, what?Kacie Patricia: Yeah, or even if you are “perfect” or you've always been thinner, it doesn't mean that you haven't struggled with things. It's really insane to think that just because somebody looks like something – we're looking at somebody and thinking, “They look this way. They can't ever have thought bad about themselves,” that's insane to think.Megan Gill: It's so unfair.Kacie Patricia: It really is.Megan Gill: It’s so unfair.Kacie Patricia: So right now I feel like I'm in high school and, you know, I feel like I've had this stomach my whole life, and, you know, this was the part of me that I just couldn't figure out. Everything else I kind of liked about myself. I always felt like I was proportionate. I liked the size of my boobs. I liked my butt. I always thought my thighs were a little fat, but that was something we could work on. This was also the Tumblr era, like 2013/2014, Tumblr, thigh-gap era. Do you know what I'm talking about?Megan Gill: I don’t know the Tumblr piece of that, but I do know the thigh gap.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember the thigh gap era of life?Megan Gill: Trigger warning, the thigh gap. Yeah, yeah. yeah.Kacie Patricia: Oh, my god, that was crazy. It was like Ariana Grande, like I remember photos of her on Instagram and Tumblr in 2014. She was so tiny, and then everybody was replicating this photo of the thigh gap.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh.Kacie Patricia: And then I was like, “Oh my God, I don't have that…”Megan Gill: It means something’s wrong with me.Kacie Patricia: It's crazy. Like what the fuck? So I remember, yeah, that was when I started to, I don't know, I just really wanted to wear a bikini. I remember I was actually coming to LA in 2014 for my cousin's wedding, and I remember I really wanted to look good in this dress that I was wearing. And I was so excited to come to LA because I'd never been here before and this was like such a dream. This is what I wanted to do when I grew up. I wanted to move here so badly, and I wanted to look good.I remember going to the gym with my mom, like, every day for maybe a month. We went to this all-women's gym together. But what she didn't know was that I was not eating lunch at school. I was coming home, and I was eating a bowl of cereal, and then that was it. And I would skip dinner and go to the gym with her and do that for, like, a month. Maybe I lost a couple pounds from doing this, but ultimately that was not sustainable at all. I didn't achieve the body that I was reaching for. I still don't have it. Nothing has ever really worked for me in the way that I've hoped.Yeah, I've always had this all-or-nothing mentality. Always, always, always. Like, “We're gonna not eat, and we're gonna go to the gym,” or “We're gonna eat whatever we want, and not go to the gym.” There's never been a balance.—————Kacie Patricia: I was now single in LA trying to pursue an acting career.Megan Gill: Not trying – you were totally pursuing it .Kacie Patricia: Yeah, and here comes all of those things like I am trying to date, and now I'm insecure because I've never been with anybody except my boyfriend. I don't know what other men think about me or my body, or they don't wanna see me again because I was too big or I was too fat, those kinds of things. And I think the comparison to other women was larger than anything else for me. I was constantly seeing other women around in public, on social media around my age trying to pursue acting too, and thinking, “Oh, well, they're skinnier. I'm not gonna get anything until I look like that.”And this was again like a silent sufferer for me. I've always had these thoughts, I've just never talked about them. I’ve never told anybody about them. I started discussing it in therapy last year.Megan Gill: Amazing.Kacie Patricia: And yeah. I've never told a friend about it or anything. And to be honest, I don't know that I would've been comfortable sharing this stuff until this past year. I don't think that I was at a place that I was – because I really didn't realize how much I was thinking about it and suffering through it until I talked about it in therapy.And so, yeah, those were some really rough years, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 specifically. It was really rough. To go along with body image issues, I felt like I was in such a victim mentality, and also the state of the industry really sucked too. And I always felt like, “When is something gonna happen for me? When is something gonna happen to me?” I was in such a, “When is something gonna work out for me?” You know, like just kind of waiting, whether that be acting work or for a boyfriend, a relationship, or just something. I was so angry. Yeah, this is something I've been talking about in therapy lately. I was in such a victim mentality, and I had so much built up anger for just everything going on in my life.I was moving around. I had all these different apartments and like no stability. I kept having to move out of my apartments for reasons that were outta my control. Dating sucked for me. I was going on tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of dates, not realizing that something was going on with me. I shouldn't have really been doing that. I was seeking validation, not realizing what was happening. And I hadn't started acting class yet. I hadn't figured out the industry stuff. I just thought, you know, “I have headshots and a reel. When am I gonna get an agent? When is this gonna happen for me?” or “I have an agent now. Now we just wait.” I just was misinformed, hadn't gained enough knowledge or information about anything, really. And yeah, I felt like such a victim, such a victim. I was really suffering and not really realizing it.And then 2023, I had a really rough year, and I remember going to the doctor and finding out how much weight I had gained. I accepted it at that point, or I was starting to. I was like, “Wow, okay, I’ve got to do something about this. This is not okay. I'm never gonna get anywhere, book anything if I don't…”Megan Gill: Ugh. God, but those thoughts.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, that's how I felt.Megan Gill: Agh.Kacie Patricia: And so, I wasn't sure that I was going to share this, but I feel like it's really important to, so I'm going to. This was back in 2023 when I went to the doctor. I really loved my doctor, and I felt like I could ask her this and she. I had done some research before, and I was like, “Can you prescribe me weight loss medication? Is that a thing?” And she was like, “I'm happy to write you a prescription, but I will tell you right now, it's probably not gonna get approved by insurance. But yeah, it works, and I can absolutely write you a prescription.” And so, I thought, “Yeah, just write it and we'll see what happens.”And so, it didn't get approved. So at first it didn't, and then at that same doctor's appointment I had routine blood work, and I have high cholesterol in my family (my mom, my dad, grandparents), and so, mine was high. And my BMI was at a number that just met the threshold for drugs. And if you have that and then you also have another condition, you can get it approved.So I then was like, “Hey, my cholesterol meets the requirement. Do you think you could submit it again?” And I got it approved. And so, starting in June 2024, I have been on Wegovy, which is weight loss drugs. And this is something I have started telling people, but also I feel really, really, really, really weird about it. But I just think that it's important to share everything that's going on. It’s been really strange to tell people because I thought, “I'm just gonna lose a little bit of weight. Nobody will notice. Nobody will know. I won't tell anybody. I won’t tell my mom. I won’t tell my family. I won’t tell my friends.”Megan Gill: Kind of like the same mentality you'd kinda been living in.Kacie Patricia: Right. Exactly, nobody's gonna know. Exactly. And then I started losing weight, and then I started telling people, and then I started talking about it in therapy, and then I started realizing how much I had been suffering.—————Kacie Patricia: I feel so weird talking about it because I'm not proud of it, but I am proud of myself for getting to a point where I feel good about myself and I did it in a way that works for me and there's such a stigma around these drugs. But, ultimately, I got it approved for reasons – I met the threshold for that. And I think as much as we are really working to accept our bodies as they are and working to, you know, really try to fix society and really, really work on these things, you can still lose weight, and you can still change yourself and feel good about yourself and do things. As much as you are totally fine the way that you are at all times, you can still change and you can still do things. We don't want to encourage either way. We just want to be okay and neutral about it and not feel like anybody needs to change, except if you want to do it for yourself.Megan Gill: Absolutely. That is like the mic-drop moment right there. And I just so appreciate you sharing this and being so open because you're also making me open my eyes a little bit and learn from you. And I'm just so grateful for you sharing, and I do think that that is what it comes back to is doing it for yourself and finding what works for you, because just like body's different – everybody has a different body, (shape, size, this, that, whatever) everybody's approach to how you care for your own body is so different as well. And what works for one person might not work for someone else. And I think it really is all about tuning into yourself.And honestly, the older I get – I know I'm only in my thirties – but the more I'm really out here looking at my blood work and really trying to genuinely take care of my overall health and wellbeing and really care for my body and like really try not to break a bone and really try not to pull a muscle because this is all we got. It is really important to look at those numbers, and I think that like for such a long time that's something that I wasn't doing, that I wasn't paying attention to in my twenties. I was like, “Oh, I'm fine? Okay!”Kacie Patricia: Right, you think you're so indestructible in your twenties or thirties, you really do. But I also think that for me, I was really suffering so silently and never talking about it, and it wouldn't have come out in this way, I wouldn't have talked about it ever, maybe, because I was just pretending like it didn't exist, if this sort of transformation hadn't happened. And even now just telling you about it, it's crazy to think I was never planning on telling anybody ever that I was doing this. I was thinking that it wasn't ever gonna be a noticeable difference, but when it started to be it was like, “Oh, okay, maybe, maybe I don't have to feel so bad about this. Maybe I can start telling people about it. What's really so bad? I'm doing something that works for me, and it's given me so much more confidence in myself, as an actor, as a human. Just in all aspects of life, I feel so much more confident in myself, and I'm really, really grateful for that because I don't know what would've happened. I think I just would've continued on this path. I never would've been able to talk about it with you, I never would've been able to talk about it in therapy if I didn't really start to look at the way that I was thinking about myself. So thank you.Megan Gill: Thank you. And I also just wanna point out that, everything aside, whatever anyone wants to think about these types of drugs, these types of weight loss drugs, and whatever anyone wants to place judgment on or applaud you for, at the end of the day, I think the real takeaway here, like as I'm listening to you talk, is that you are now voicing this and you are now able to sit here with me today and share your true body image story and like look at your self and your relationship to your body and really examine that. And I think that that's so, so, so, so, so important that you're no longer silent suffering because agh.Kacie Patricia: And let me just say one more thing. I still have a stomach. I lost 50 pounds, but I still have a stomach. I still have a belly, and that's not going anywhere.Megan Gill: High five, girl. This is the radical acceptance piece!Kacie Patricia: This is just to say you can go through a transformation, I guess, as big as I did and still have that thing that you're insecure about. It might not go away.Megan Gill: Oh, my god, I just got like literal chills hearing you share that. I'm cradling my belly at the moment.Kacie Patricia: It’s still there, and it has not gone away. It's lessened, but it's still there. It’s still there in the ways that I thought it wouldn't be.I do think that this conversation right now is making me realize like, oh, this was really, really, really important to talk about. I had been seeing my therapist for about a year before I brought up the body image thing, and it wasn't until I was starting the medication that I decided to talk about it and start really looking at it and seeing what was going on.Megan Gill: Kind of allowing yourself to zoom out and have like an out-of-body experience, in a sense?Kacie Patricia: Yes, for sure. It wasn't until then that I was really able to look at it and see and understand how much was really going on.I was gonna say about the medication and stuff and the judgment and the shame that we might have about it, I think ultimately I was in a place where I was able to get it for health-related reasons and that I met the requirement, and that is true for so many people. But it's also being abused in ways where people don't necessarily need it but are getting their hands on it because they have the money. And that's happening here in Hollywood all the time, of course. But I think it's important to remember that those people have a story too, to tell. Those people are also going through it. Those people are probably also going through the same shit we are going through. And yeah, it's just important to remember that these drugs are helping so many people. And if you're using them in a safe way – like for me, I've been lucky to not have many side effects and stay pretty healthy throughout it. And I think if you use them in those ways, then they can work for you. And there shouldn't be so much judgment around them. But there are a lot of people who aren't using them in safe ways, and I think we just need to remind ourselves and have empathy that there's a bigger cause and there's like a bigger root of the issue, and people are using them because society is still trying to fit us into these boxes. And that's why this conversation is important. That's why what you're doing is so important because we are trying to change that. Yeah, it's really important to talk about this specifically because this is something that's going on right now. It hasn't been going on forever. So yeah, thank you for giving me a place to share it. I wasn't sure when I was driving here, I like wasn't sure that I was gonna talk about it. I really wasn't sure and I'm really glad that I did.Megan Gill: I'm really glad you did too. Truly, thank you. And you've opened my eyes and my heart, and I'm just so grateful for you and for your vulnerability.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, thank you.Megan Gill: Thank you!Kacie Patricia: Some actor things that have come up for me is that I've always felt like there is no place in this business for like a regular fucking body. There's no place in this business for somebody who's five three and size six or eight. There was nothing wrong with me the way that I was before, but I do think it's really important that you have to get to a place where you're comfortable and you're cool talking about it and seek therapy if you're feeling these things. And I really, really, really feel for everybody who's like suffering in silence or just suffering at all about these kinds of things because, especially with this career, I don't think that you're gonna be able to bring your full self to it until you are comfortable and that you might not ever be fully comfortable. You're always gonna have thoughts and feelings about it, but I don't know. I don't think that I was really able to fully give myself over to this pursuit at that time. I don't know, because those thoughts were always just in the back of my mind of like, “I'm not gonna book this. Somebody skinnier than me is gonna book this.”Megan Gill: It’s almost like it was distracting you from doing the actual work.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, it was distracting me from really giving it my full attention, my full work, to think about the work outside of my appearance. But it seems like there's really not much of a place for somebody who is a normal size.Megan Gill: Who's just an average woman existing in an average body.Kacie Patricia: There seems to be the spectrum of larger people and skinny people, and you're type-cast as the larger, funny friend or whatever, or you're the skinny lead.Megan Gill: Do you know what's very oddly interesting? That's how it was in the theater world 10 to 15 years ago when I was starting college. That's how you were categorized. Either you were the fat, funny friend, or you were the leading lady. There was no in-between. Talk about like black-and-white thinking. Talk about all or nothing, oh, my god. And you had to somehow fit yourself into a category, and I feel like part of my mission now as an actor, even just like as an indie filmmaker making my own projects, is there has to be a space for the average female in the average female body in this industry. We have to almost change our mentality around it because we belong here. We are real people with real stories to tell. I believe that. I don't know if I'm delulu in believing that, because I'm like, “I have to believe that because that's who I am, and I belong here and so do all my friends that look like me too,” you know?Kacie Patricia: Totally, and I'm thinking as we're talking about this and thinking of all the shows and movies I watched recently, I can't think of anybody like that looks like a regular body. I really can't. It's really hard. I'm gonna specifically look out for that in the stuff that I watch from here on out. But there really isn't a place, and it really sucks.Megan Gill: I hear you. I'm thinking, “What am I watching right now?” Running Time. Kate Hudson, she's a babe. And I'm like, “I want to see your belly roll. I wanna see your arm flab.” Okay. White Lotus, everyone's hot, right? Everyone, and of course the men are the ones that can get away with being a little “not the hottest.” And it’s frustrating! Sorry, I just wanna throw that in there.Kacie Patricia: It’s true! It's so fucking frustrating. And so, so real and so true. And I think this is also a thought and fear that I had before too that I didn't want to admit to myself. That was just kind of like a fear that lived in the silent and suffering. Like, “There's no place for me, so I must mask this. I must make myself look this like a skinny version of myself. I must put this illusion on. I have to fit into that category. There is no place for me as I am. I have to make myself look that way.”Megan Gill: Do you feel like that dissociated you from your body even further? Before it, then, like now brought you back into your body in a way?Kacie Patricia: Yeah. For sure. And when I was at my heaviest a couple years ago, I remember that was when I really mostly disassociated. I remember I wouldn't even look in the mirror. I would never look at my body in the mirror. Maybe like from here up.Megan Gill: Wow.Kacie Patricia: Yeah. I only wore baggy clothing, oversized clothing, and I was just doing all of these things and not realizing that's what was going on.Megan Gill: It was very subconscious.Kacie Patricia: I was just not acknowledging what was really happening. So yeah, I really, really disassociated and disconnected from myself and my body for sure. But I also wanna talk about how now being a much smaller version of myself, the insecurities haven't really gone away. I do feel more confident in myself. I feel more like myself, I guess, if that makes sense.Megan Gill: Do you think that’s because you’re feeling more connected to your body because of this whole transformation?Kacie Patricia: Yeah, it could be. Yeah, I do think so. I think what has happened is that I look in the mirror and I see the version of myself that I thought that I looked like, if that makes sense. I looked in the mirror and rejected what I looked like for so long, and now I'm looking in the mirror and I see what I wanted to look like and I see what I thought that I looked like, or I was telling myself that I looked alike, but I didn't really look like that.Wait, this is wild. Because to me this almost feels like reverse body dysmorphia. Whoa.Kacie Patricia: Yeah. Literally, yeah. This is what I thought I looked like at that time, what I was trying to tell myself that I looked like at that time in order to make myself feel better. But that wasn't really true. And looking back at photos of myself from that time, I have empathy and compassion for myself at that time. And again, like this goes along with not telling anybody, not thinking that I was ever gonna look that much different. I was just gonna lose a little bit of weight. I really was downplaying the fuck out of it. I really, really, really rejected every part of being insecure and being unhappy with the way that I looked. I'm so glad that this conversation happened. It would not have happened had I not gone through this. It’s really important.Megan Gill: It’s so important. And I, too, am so glad that you're here sharing all of this, because I think it's also just so important to note like just you sitting here and saying, “Wow, the insecurities are just, in a sense, still with me.”Kacie Patricia: Yeah. The thing that I have been insecure about my whole life, my stomach, is still with me, and it's the same. I don't think it's really – that specific insecurity has not lessened.Megan Gill: I’m only laughing because I know from experience. There comes a point where – I don't know when it happened. I think it might've been, kinda like you were saying, I couldn't pinpoint the exact moment when I started realizing that I had body image issues I don't know the exact moment when I started relating better to my belly, but slowly over time, I am able to look at her in the mirror and be like, “I see you girl. You're good. You’re okay.”Kacie Patricia: She has organs in there. That’s where we carry our uterus, which holds a child. It's housing our reproductive organs. Men could never.Megan Gill: And how could we not look at ourselves in the mirror and have compassion for that part of our body? It makes me so sad that our society has conditioned us to look at whatever part of your body it is for you (for us, it's our tummies), to look at our tummy in the mirror and not want to see her. For me for a long time it was like if I could feel my stomach on the other part of my stomach, like my roll, if I could feel my roll on my legs or touching my other roll, like it would literally give me anxiety. I would start to stress out. Or if I could feel my boobs like sagging and touching my belly, I was like, “Ew, this is disgusting.” What? What the F? Those feelings didn't come out of thin air. Hmm, where do you think I learned that this visual that I had that I was feeling in my body was “bad” or “disgusting”?Kacie Patricia: We just grew up never seeing anybody that looked like us on TV doing the things that we wanted to do. We grew up with Selena Gomez and Miley Cyrus. It's like who's really to blame? Who's really to blame? All we can do is just keep talking about it and just trying to change it and giving ourselves safe spaces to talk to each other about it because this has felt really, really, really healing for me, this conversation specifically, but just this past year in therapy and the journey that I've gone on. I healed a part of myself that I did not know needed to be healed, or I started to at least. We’re never fully healed. But those insecurities will always be there, right?Megan Gill: Always, and it's like how we approach handling them and how we approach the self-talk when they come up and how we work with ourselves and our mental health, really, to support ourselves and support each other through these really tough things that are never probably gonna go away.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, I think for me, like the tummy thing has always been there. That was my first insecurity for as long as I can remember, going back to like fifth, sixth grade when I started to have body image issues. That was the first thing. And so I've had it for as long as I can remember.I remember as a kid, from like 10, 11, 12, I was small. I was skinny as a child. But I still had it, in my eyes at least. I still had it, so it's been there my whole entire life. So it's just meant to be a part of me. It's always been there. It's always meant to be a part of me. It’s always been there. Even now, at the weight that I'm at, where I'm at, it's still there. It hasn't gone anywhere. It's just gonna be a part of me. And I have tried for so long to try to figure it out like, “What can I do about this? How do I get this to go somewhere else? Why is it there? Why is everything else okay in proportion, but this is just like there? What do I do?” But it's just my body. That's just the way that my body was made. It's just the way that it's made. I have a really small waist, but my belly goes over the waistline, so it's like the waist is small, but the belly goes over, and that's just the way that it is. That's just how I was born. That's just how my body is meant to be. Yeah, that's just our genetic makeup.I'm sure I'm always gonna be insecure about the things that I'm insecure about, but all we can do is just keep talking about it and keep making it okay to talk about it. Because that is how we keep a good relationship with our bodies is to keep talking about it.Megan Gill: Absolutely, and having those safe spaces and having those supports and having people to turn to if you're struggling or like going through it.Kacie Patricia: Even to speak more about the transformation too, I think I thought that I was gonna feel so much more different. I definitely feel much more different in ways that I wasn't really expecting, like the confidence to talk about this kind of stuff and confidence in my work or just in myself as a human being. I feel more like, “This is me!” I'm not hiding so much anymore. I think I was hiding a lot, like I said before. Yeah, I was hiding myself physically. But you're also hiding mentally a lot. You're hiding a piece of yourself because you don't want people to see a certain part of yourself.Megan Gill: I also think that presence pulls us out of those cycles and pulls us out of that, how you were saying you were like silently suffering. It pulls us out of silently suffering and forces us to be present, be in the moment, open up to people that we love and trust and that care about us. And that I really believe is like where the real, true healing and transformation happens.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, and when I started noticing that clothes weren't fitting, they were getting too big on me, blah, blah, blah, it's funny, there are two completely opposite sides of the spectrum about clothes. When I started to notice that they were getting too big on me, I was like, “Why am I not more excited? This is what I've dreamed of for as long as I can remember. Why am I not feeling differently about this?” It's like you can do all this work, and you still are gonna feel this way sometimes about yourself. I'm thankful for the changes that have happened because they've been really important, but it hasn't been like a, “Oh my god, thank god I finally looked this way!” There hasn't been that big moment of like, “Well, now I can finally do this and that and book work!” No, that hasn't happened.Megan Gill: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so important to talk about also.Kacie Patricia: Yeah, that feeling never came to me. It's like, was it nice? Sure. It was nice to go down a few sizes and see that it was working, but those body image issues are at such a core belief that doing all this work is not gonna make them go away and changing in such a significant way is not gonna make them go away, most likely.“ For me, it was always silent suffering. It was like nobody could know that I felt this way about myself. That's literally how it's been up until this year of my life, to be honest. And as much as you are totally fine the way that you are at all times, you can still change and you can still do things. We don't want to encourage either way. We just want to be okay and neutral about it and not feel like anybody needs to change, except if you want to do it for yourself.”- Kacie PatriciaKacie is a New England native who has spent the last six years in Los Angeles pursuing her acting career. Throughout her career, she has navigated the complexities of body image, a topic that once made her uncomfortable. Though significant life changes in recent years have transformed her perspective, allowing her to embrace her own experiences and foster a deep empathy for others facing similar struggles. Keep an eye out for a play Kacie is producing coming to Crash Acting fall of 2025!Email: [email protected]: www.imdb.com/name/nm11202500/Instagram: www.instagram.com/_kaciepatriciaSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: This conversation contains discussion of eating disorders and nutrition post-recovery. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow Substack writer Sarah Plenge to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Sarah and I met while I was thick in the depths of a serving job, and she brought a little beam of light to my life every Tuesday night. We have since kept in touch, and on a recent strand walk with Sarah, I knew I had to have a body image conversation with her.In our conversation, Sarah speaks on how much clarity she has in her life now that she’s out of the weeds of her eating disorder. She shares about so much deeply impactful insight into how her experience has shaped how she now lives her life and how she creates her art and how healing has brought her closer to all of the wonderful things she wants for her life. Listen for her take on how our bodies are our best friends and how we need to shape our culture to treat others with kindness and respect.It was a true honor to have Sarah as part of this series. She’s so wise when it comes to the topics of body image and nature. Sarah drops pure poetic gold in this conversation, including but certainly not limited to this quote that’s stuck with me since we spoke: “We are flowers; we are not meant to bloom year round.“ I can’t wait for you to listen to our conversation and soak up all of the goodness Sarah has to share!“One really big shift I had in recovery was starting to see my body as the best friend I'll ever have and the only one that I'll have for the entirety of my life, and she is the only one that knows everything. Everything! What an incredible friend. And she's held me through all of it - the excruciating pain and the boundless joy. I vow to take care of her just as much as she takes care of me.” - Sarah PlengeSarah Plenge: I was trying to get my thoughts in order before we sat down to talk, and one thing I was reflecting on in kind of my own body image journey and even how it's affected my professional life and obviously my personal life, but it's been really interesting for me. I think the greatest lesson that my eating disorder has gifted me has been the power of choice, and we really get to choose what we subscribe to in life and especially the media that we consume and the messages that we're telling our self. And I will say probably the biggest shift that happened internally on my recovery and that continues to happen in so many aspects of healing in my life is my self-talk and how I choose to talk to myself and others and, especially, I mean around body stuff and around food, and a lot of it feel can feel like automatic and overwhelming at times, but I really focus on trying to be willing to receive the pause because there's always a pause between thoughts. And before I go down this rabbit hole of like freaking out because a certain pair of jeans doesn't fit, what can I do to be like, “Hey, actually, I don't want to wear this outfit because it's really uncomfortable,” and that's fine. And some days the jeans fit, and sometimes they don't, and that's fine and super normal. And It really sucks that our education system does not involve an aspect of talking about how our bodies fluctuate and change and delves into hormones. And I mean, that's probably a function of a lot of research not getting funded, and we're like just learning so much about women's bodies as women are allowed more and more into STEM spaces, and that's a whole different conversation, so I'll stop myself there.Megan Gill: Yeah, no, but also an important thing to point out. It's very true. I think that so much of it is the lack of our education, even as young women. I'm so grateful that there is more research being done about women and our bodies. And even just the simple fact that we fluctuate so much over the course of a 30-day cycle, body-wise, is something that I didn't realize until recently. Like, everyone's talking about your luteal phase and your follicular phase, and I'm learning like, “Oh yeah, duh, of course this makes sense,” and of course our bodies and our energy levels and our minds are going to be different over the course of our cycle. And I do think it's important to point out.Sarah Plenge: And I think a really big piece of it that I am learning right now is that all of the seasons are okay and feelings are perfectly safe. They show up and they pass through, and it's just all water in the creek and it all flows on at some point. And I think as women especially go through these seasonal periods, within our cycles especially, it's kind of cool that every month we are offered an invitation to go in and explore whatever's in there. And like I know that my diet really affects how my cycles work, and the more I've gotten in touch with that, the more I've actually been open to eating to feel good and not to look a certain way, and how can I fuel myself to move in the ways that I want to and not just move because I want this set of muscles to look good or I want this outfit to look good or I want this person to pay attention to me. It's crazy all these things that like go through our heads all the time!Megan Gill: Oh, yes! And all of these things I think we, at least in my experience, did not speak about to anyone until now. And it's just It's sad that we, for so long, I think were struggling on our own in those ways, trapped in our own minds with all of these thoughts.Sarah Plenge: Oh, so much shame.Megan Gill: So much shame. And just looking in the mirror and even trying to get ready one day, right, this morning, it comes down to the self-talk. It’s like I'm not going to let myself go there. Doing the healing to get to a point where you're like, “Hey, I'm aware that I'm, I'm having these thoughts. And I'm gonna honor the thoughts,” because they're gonna pop up. Like you said, it's normal. We get to revisit it every month, you know,Sarah Plenge: Hey buddy!Megan Gill: Before I kind of went on this deep dive of my own healing, I used to be like, why is it that like two weeks out of my cycle I feel really good about myself, and I'm vibing, I like feel good in my body, I like the way I look, I have a lot of energy. And then the other two weeks I'm like, oh, I don't feel good in my body, I don't like the way I look, nothing fits, nothing feels good. Like, oh, hmm, now it makes sense to me. And also just honoring those phases and honoring the thoughts that come up and having enough awareness, that's what I was getting to.Sarah Plenge: No, I understand. But it's also learning can I love the question, can I love the uncertainty, can I love the place that feels weird and gushy and unhealed and not fit, for five minutes? It's fine, you know? I don't know, listening to you talk just now brought up a couple things for me where I think so much of an eating disorder is wanting to shrink, right? And it's wanting to fit into a mold that we perceive that is in front of us. I'm speaking about my experience and also experiences that I've connected with with others. And I think, at least for me, it was so much about this desire to be loved. And I was like, “If I can look a certain way, then people are going to like me, and I'm not going to have to deal with my stuff.” And that doesn't work for a very long time. We're super seasonal creatures. We're not meant to look a certain way all the time, and so much of my healing has been around learning to accept myself as I am and knowing that I am enough just as I am right now in this moment and that is worth everything, and I don't want to waste any more of my precious, sweet time on this planet trying to be someone that I'm not. It doesn't work, and it never has for me, and whenever I stray off the path, my body has a really funny habit of reminding me, “Hey, man, go enjoy what's right in front of you.”I'm having that experience right now, where I have had two really random injuries this month. And I just moved to a place that's super beautiful, and I was intending on exploring all this nature. And I've actually been brought back into myself in being like, actually, I don't have to move through nature really intensely in order to enjoy it. I actually get to go sit and be still with this place and appreciate it for what it is. And how does the sun move through the trees and what can that teach me? And how can I go be in nature in this body and still feel beautiful? Because that's really what we want at the end of the day. It's like we all want to know that we're worthy and loved and capable of connection and just to be ourselves. That’s so much of what it's about, and it is really interesting that I think a lot of – I mean everyone of every gender might struggle with an eating disorder, but I'm just speaking from the experience as a woman, and so many of the women I know have, especially in LA and growing up here, so many of us have gone through just like weird stuff with food, even if it wasn't just with an eating disorder. How many, how many of the women I know have tried to be smaller? And how many of us have used our food as a method of control? And how many of us have demonized our emotions? I sure did. I've used it since I was a little kid, emotional eating. I didn't know any other coping skills. I was like, “The ice cream makes my brain feel awesome.”Megan Gill: Same, same! So I'm gonna eat a whole friggin half-gallon of it, quarter-gallon, something like that, yeah!Sarah Plenge: And it was delicious, and I really wish it had been like, actually, that was super okay to do. And I actually went through a phase where I just really needed to eat a lot of ice cream when I was weight restoring, and it felt really scary, and I kind of wish I had just been able to relax and eat the ice cream.Megan Gill: Like enjoy it?Sarah Plenge: Yeah, because I didn't. I was so scared of the ice cream, but I had to eat it. It was crazy! Recovery feels really crazy sometimes. And sometimes I just need to eat a bunch of food and that's okay. It's so okay to eat your food and like take a nap instead of going to the fucking Pilates class. It’s fine!Megan Gill: I think that it like ultimately comes down to true deep listening to what your body needs today in this moment, which I think ties back to this whole piece about what you were just speaking of, which reminds me of presence, how coming back into our bodies and how being present in the moment, instead of being hyper-fixated on things and worrying about the future or worrying about food things and exercise things and all of these things that my brain used to literally think about 24/7 – not to be so definitive, but I spent so much time and energy worrying about that shit. But coming back to the present moment and being like, “What do I need now? I planned on going to a yoga class at 5:30, but actually, I'm really freaking tired, and I'm worried that –.” Now my brain goes to, “Maybe you should not go to class. Stay home, rest your body, and nap, so that you don't get sick.” It comes back to how can I truly protect this vessel that is mine, that I have done so much work to love so deeply.Everything you were saying about coming back to self-love, the love that you were seeking from someone else, realizing that you can give that to yourself even by just taking care of your body in these subtle, important ways, and how eating food that your body's craving equals self-love. I think that's such a wild concept for at least my brain.Sarah Plenge: That’s beautiful, yeah.Megan Gill: And it took me a while to latch onto that and be like, “Oh, that can be a form of self -love. Crazy!” But it makes sense because also, at the end of the day, like this is all you've got.Sarah Plenge: Yeah, I get one of these!Megan Gill: Yeah! I know, and I also don't want to waste all of my time worrying about her. I want to be able to be present and be in my body.My perception of like a lot of your art and a lot of your work is nature based and how you have now allowed yourself to fully be present and fully be in your body in this thing that you love to capture, and you love to write about. And I just think the power of being present is so, so impactful and so important also for our healing around the body stuff too. I loved hearing you talk about that because – do you think that's almost shifted the way – you coming back into your body and like being able to show up and be present, not always, but in those times you are, has that allowed you to write about nature and capture nature and the things that you love to capture through the camera through a different lens?Sarah Plenge: There are a couple things. I actually think my healing shows up the most through my writing right now, and I'm putting together an anthology of poetry about some stuff I went through a couple years ago. It was really difficult and painful, but I was kind of going through like years and years of poetry, and it was interesting for me as I really commit to my healing that so much of it I was able to view through just different times of day and different seasons, and how I was able to like take rage, which is a really scary feeling for me, and I'm still learning how to hold that and like be vulnerable and be like, “Actually, it's super okay for me to just be mad when something bad happens. It's okay. It's a super ike safe feeling of outlets,” you know? And knowing that, oh, that feels like night for me, and knowing when I have a breakthrough, that feels like dawn for me, and knowing that all of these places that I feel broken are just opportunities for light to come in.And I also think that I have had some really unfortunate – and all of them are like due to my eating disorder, when I run back to it, your gut is connected to your brain, and when you're not taught to take care of your tummy from a young age, it can really mess you up. And I struggle with a lot of health issues as a result of that. And I have found a lot of gratitude in, especially with photography, and I guess in that vein, when I am able to go out and I do feel good enough to participate in nature and I can go do a big gnarly swim with my water housing and I get all the juicy adrenaline and yapping with people in the lineup and it's awesome and, honestly, that's like where I feel the best. But I'm not always there, and that's super, okay. We are flowers; we are not meant to bloom year round. It's okay. If you can, that's wonderful.Megan Gill: Yeah, you write poetry, yeah. You're so eloquent with these beautiful visuals. You keep dropping gold on me. And I'm like, “Oh my god” But just hearing you speak, I keep coming back to this cycle, not like the circle of life, but that we're cyclical beings, and that we're not meant to be stagnant, and that we are meant to change, and that we are meant to shift and evolve.Sarah Plenge: Yeah, healing is not linear!Megan Gill: Yeah, even just like being a human is not linear. We are growing older each day and changing and evolving each day. Something that has stuck with me from a young age, which is really interesting, is I've always loved change. When I learned in science class in middle school that the delta meant change, I was like, “Oh, if I ever get a tattoo, I want that because I think it's important to always be changing.”Sarah Plenge: Aww.Megan Gill: Which is very, very interesting, then, to know that I went on for the next ten-ish years of my life to not want to allow nature to take its process via my body. What am I trying to say? I was like not allowing the natural process of change to happen. I feel like I was almost trying to control it and pull it back.Sarah Plenge: It can be really scary. Yeah, it can be super scary.Megan Gill: Like, ah how fascinating, how interesting. And now to be on the other side of the ways in which I struggled in many ways and to be able to see oh, wow. Interesting that change can be so beautiful and lovely if we embrace it and if we allow it, but then if we try to control it to change ourselves to be something we're not meant to be, it can be very dark.Sarah Plenge: Totally. Well, what you were saying about the control piece is so central to eating disorders, and I think disordered body image in general. And I remember having some people I was working with when I was younger say, “Well, you know, this is like really a control mechanism. Your not eating or your eating too much or your purging is like a function of control.” And I remember being like, “What are you talking about? You are so silly! I'm fine! I can handle it.”But when you're talking about change, change can be terrifying and change can mean that you're walking over a carpet and suddenly there's a trap door or you're on top of a nice, beautiful wave and the bottom falls out and you're over the falls. And It can be really, really scary, and it sometimes doesn't feel good. And I also think that when we're trying to control the drop, we're not trusting the process, which is a lot easier said than done. But knowing that, ultimately, I don't think I'm screwed, and I know that my life's purpose is something greater than shrinkage or stagnation and knowing that if I surrender to this process that's natural and in front of me, then I'm probably going to turn out okay, and if I give my lif the respect and honor to teach me, then I usually find some really incredible gift on the other side that I wouldn't have access to otherwise. If my life's purpose was to be skinny, you and I wouldn't be talking.Megan Gill: We wouldn't be!Sarah Plenge: No.Megan Gill: Also, what a very sad life purpose. Like, what? Why? Ugh.Sarah Plenge: I don't know. Enough! Enough!Megan Gill: And I don't want anyone to experience that and I don't want anyone to think that that's the end goal and that to be skinny means that I will be loved and all of these things and I'll be worthy and I'll finally book TV. It's like, “No bitch, be yourself because that's when you're gonna fucking see the magic happen!” And just hearing you talk about embracing what's ahead for you, it’s just so lovely.Sarah Plenge: Well, pain is what gets us to pay attention. And a lot of time, if we're ignoring our bodies, they are really expressive. And I mean, I feel really blessed that my body is really somatic, and one really big shift I had in recovery was starting to see my body as the best friend I'll ever have and the only one that I'll have for the entirety of my life, and she is the only one that knows everything, everything! What an incredible friend, and she's held me through all of it, through all of it. Yeah, the excruciating pain and the boundless joy. She has been there for me more than anyone.Megan Gill: That’s really beautiful. Really, really beautiful. I've never thought about it in that sense and how also you treat your friends the way you want to be treated too, right?Sarah Plenge: Yeah, exactly.Megan Gill: In a lovely, little metaphorical sense. It's like why are we putting our best friend through all of this turmoil?Sarah Plenge: Yeah, there are things that I've said to my body that are horrific, you know? There are things I've like done to my body that are awful. I would have called CPS on myself. Like, jeez, you know? So it's like I think a lot of it, I mean, in talking about trust and change and surrender and awareness and also reforming – it's a relationship, right – reforming a relationship with my body, and learning that she is worthy of trust and affection and love and like all of the good things. And when I'm going through injury or if I don't feel good, I vow to take care of her just as she takes care of me. And I also know that my body is a really valuable source of intuition, and she knows what's up and the more I listen to her, the more I am led down a path that's been really beautiful. I feel so blessed with my life, and I've been through a lot of stuff and I could really choose to stop somewhere, you know? I could say that actually this is as far as I go, but I really want to do that!Megan Gill: No, you’re not doing that! No, no, no!Sarah Plenge: Yeah, I'm not doing that. I’ve got too much art to make!Megan Gill: So much art to make!Sarah Plenge: Yeah, it keeps coming out of me!Megan Gill: Hmm, almost like you're meant to do this with your life! Crazy! Wild! Gosh, I'm just like the world needs your stories and what you have to say. And even listening to you speak right here right now, I just love the way that you are speaking and I'm just like, yeah, you're a really good fucking writer because the way that you speak also, I think, reflects the way that you write too. And it's just really lovely and beautiful.Sarah Plenge: You're so sweet. Thank you.Megan Gill: Well, it's really lovely, and the world needs your lens of everything that you went through and all of the experiences you've had. They need to hear what you have to say and see via your art, and I think that's really important and there is so much more to be said and I'm so excited for this compilation of poetry to be released to the world!Sarah Plenge: I studied environment in school. I studied a couple things, but environment was one of them. And my eating disorder recovery was super intense in college. Just for context, I went from one of my low weights to one of my high weights within six months my freshman year, and it was like so intense, oh my god. But I was also in a new environment, and I was experiencing really gnarly winter for the first time, and that was the first time I had gone through a really deep wintering, and I was also really lucky to be surrounded with people that were really involved in climate action and people that I was able to like share some of what I was going through with.And in learning about environment, the more I got in touch with it and also through the lens of anthropology, which is one of the other things I was studying, learning a lot about the perception of self and other and how damaging that is to our psyches in a lot of ways, and how it's important, I think, sometimes to have binaries, just to give us some perspective. But in the broad scheme of things, if we are to heal a planet that is really burning and that's really talking to us, and the more we're able to see ourselves as products of the planet, and we're just a bunch of animals that happened to figure out how to talk and breed like crazy and do all the wonderful things that humans do. But seeing ourselves in relation to the planet, and starting to see my body as a landscape has been really helpful and has so deepened my relationship with myself and has allowed me to perceive my body with reverence and understand that, I don't know, I'm not going to go up to a canyon or go up to a rock and tell it that I think it's bad because it has some bumps or lines or scars or whatever. I'm not going to go to a tree that happens to be really chubby and be like, “You suck.” That's so lame.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, yeah, absolutely.Sarah Plenge: Yeah, so I think, I don't know, I guess that's like a sweet way that I practice self-love. And also I've really been able to care about the planet I live on, and I'm just really blessed that I'm able-bodied and allowed to go surf and swim and ski and hike and do all the things that I love doing and have formed communities through that and have, you know, let an old version of myself shed through that way too. And also that's been a really big part of my family for a really long time. And being able to look at, actually, I want to ski with my dad forever. If I take care of myself, I get to do that. And I want to be able to go on like cute, little walks with my mom for as long as we're both walking. I want to do that.And one of the ways that I feel like I get to celebrate and honor my, I don't know, people that came before me, I'm really blessed that I come from a family of athletes, and one of the ways that I can honor my family is by continuing to be active and move. I'm not necessarily a competitive person, but I just love to move. It just feels so good for me, and it reminds me of one of the reasons why I get to live this life that I do. And, I don't know, not to get too woo, but I do think that like everyone is here for their own reason and we're all endowed with our own set of gifts. And the more I pay attention to what's right in front of me, the more I'm allowed to just be grateful for what is here now, and yeah, not try to fit into things that weren't meant for me. And sometimes it's also okay to outgrow things and shed and that just means we're making room for new things to come into our lives.It's like crop cycling, you know? Not everything can grow year-round in the same climate, and it's all just kind of okay. My food's okay. My body's okay. I'm in good health. I have so much to be grateful for right now, and I don't know, I wouldn't have spoken this way a couple years ago – not a couple years ago, but a little bit longer ago. But whenever I'm going through it with body image stuff, when that little friend crops up –Megan Gill: Hey, old friend.Sarah Plenge: It's like, hey buddy. Yeah.Megan Gill: We’ll acknowledge you, we’ll hear you out and then let you go on your way.Sarah Plenge: Yeah, she just wants to talk, you know?Megan Gill: She wants to be heard, yeah.Sarah Plenge: Yeah. The more I understand humans in general as just like a bunch of little kids that at some point have to do taxes, it’s like the more I'm just like, “Oh, hey man, what's up? What are we doing today? Like, how are you?” Yeah, and just like getting in there and being really cozy with uncomfortable stuff, the question becomes more, yeah, like I said, “How can I love this today?” And I don't know, I feel like I'm this whole time I've been speaking, I'm noticing I'm coming from a very – I've definitely been in like a hibernating season for a while and like definitely kind of been in my like psychic cave of, “Okay, I have to go into the editing hole and finish my weird, little projects, and I'll emerge at some point!” And I'm sure in a different season of my life I would be speaking differently. But yeah, I think right now something I'm really feeling is when we are invited to go in, it’s really important to honor the call and there's so much richness in that soil.—Megan Gill: I agree, and even if it does feel a little uncomfortable or unknown, just having faith that it's going to lead you to where you're supposed to be, I very much believe that too, what you were saying about us being here for a reason and acknowledging the beauty around us and acknowledging the things in the present moment. I couldn't see beauty for such a long time. I couldn't see, not necessarily beauty, but I couldn't see the rock. I didn't even know it was there, let alone to be able to see that it had bumps on it, you know? I feel like when you start becoming more present and shedding those things that kept you hung up for so long on this and that or whatever, being able to be in the moment and see where you're supposed to be heading or be able to even listen deeply for that call of what's next, like you were saying, so that you can follow it, I feel like is the only way to move through the world. But not everyone allows themselves to explore that. And I think it takes going through the deep unknown and the discomfort of what's coming next to even get to the place of the beauty.It is scary. It is scary to surrender and have radical acceptance of, “This is where I am right now. I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring.” Yeah, it's terrifying. But also I struggled with a lot of anxiety in my past, and not that I still don't, but something that's helped me really deal with that is being more present and is having radical acceptance and is embracing the uncertainty of what's ahead. And I can't go back because being anxious or struggling in the ways that I struggled. I don't want to live like that. I don't want that life anymore. It's so beautiful over here and it's so much clearer and it's so much more rich. And I want more people to get to that place, to be able to fully experience their lives and be able to fully see the beauty in the trees and all of these subtle things in nature that are just given to us that we like choose to look over every day. That’s the stuff.Sarah Plenge: That's the stuff. That's what we're here for. When I think about the times in my life that I kind of get to look around and go, “Oh, like this is what it's about,” has been a lot of times skiing or surfing or being somewhere and usually being in nature in really good company. And not to say that any of the times I've had just beautiful dinner conversations or have gotten to hold somebody's hand who I love so much, all those things are so worth it. And yeah, the present moment has so much to offer if only we choose to be here. And I think when we're caught, I don't know, in the torrential downpour of bullshit that we are forced to consume, especially as women around our size and like what's deemed good and worthy and all of those things, it's really hard to be present. And the more we're able to step out of that, yeah, like you said, the beauty is all right there if we choose to see it.I mean, what you were saying was really on point. It is a choice to want to look at it. Also knowing that sometimes when you choose to look at it, it can be really painful, and sometimes you're looking at something that's like not aesthetically beautiful and that is also worthy of love and tenderness and care.Yeah, my poet is showing, but there's this one Khalil Gibran poem. It's called “On Pain”, and it's an excerpt from The Prophet, and it talks about how if only you understood the richness of what was in front of you, the more you would be able to watch serenely as the winters of grief passed over your fields and know that all of the seasons are there. It's just a lot about trust. It's a lot about faith, I think, and not even faith necessarily in a religious sense, but just faith in, “Okay, I'm gonna turn this over to not me, because my tiny, little human brain can't always figure this out, and my human brain is the one that picks up on all the diet culture stuff.” So the more that I'm able to just be like, “Oh, hey, like, that's the thing that my brain is doing,” which is exactly what it's supposed to be doing. It's supposed to be digesting and analyzing and…Megan Gill: Keeping us safe.Sarah Plenge: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, she's just doing what she knows how to do and also knowing that like I am more than just my brain. I'm also more than just my body. I'm so many other things, and it is a choice too to step into the woman that I want to become, and I have had to spend a lot of time in my mid 20s writing about what that looks like. And there's a lot of stuff that when I was younger, I didn't let myself dream about. I never dreamed about a wedding or any of that stuff. I was so obsessed with trying to be thin and trying to fit in and all of these things.Megan Gill: Oh, my god, same. Ahh!Sarah Plenge: Yeah, and more recently I've just been letting myself write about what do I actually want my life to look like? I'm so lucky that even though, I don't know, this country is far from perfect, I do still have autonomy, and I can still choose to express myself as I want to. And what does that look like for me? Like, what do I, Sarah, want out of all of these spaces in my life? And, you know, I so wish I could go back and tell my little eight-year-old, and just be like, “Hey, actually, it's, like, super normal for you to be the tallest girl in the class, and you gained a bunch of weight really fast because you're growing so tall, like so, so tall.”I'll just share this, but I had a really interesting therapy session last week where I was kind of going in and exploring some stuff around my inner child. And I like uncovered this memory of being in ballet when I was little and being in this little Christmas tree costume. And I remember being so, so scared that I was the biggest person in the photo because I was just like a head or two taller than all the other girls. I don't know if that was a function of all the hormones in the soy milk or what. But I was just a really tall little kid, and I was just a bigger little kid. Super normal but girls would tease me about it. It sucked, and like instead of that being like a thing of reverence like, “Damn, actually, she is so athletic. Can I get her to like be on sports teams really young?”Megan Gill: Right? Why is that seen as such a bad thing?Sarah Plenge: Yeah, and how much of my life did I spend, I don't know, not appreciating that gift that was given me. And, like I said, I pay for it now in a lot of ways, and it kind of sucks, but it also has taught me to just appreciate like the capabilities I do have.“ Before I go down this rabbit hole of freaking out because a certain pair of jeans doesn't fit Like what can I do to be like, “Hey, actually I don't want to wear this outfit because it's really uncomfortable, and that's fine.” Some days the jeans fit, and sometimes they don't, and that's fine and super normal. It really sucks that our education system does not involve an aspect of talking about how our bodies fluctuate and change.”- Sarah PlengeSarah is a California-based artist working primarily in the mediums of photography and writing. As both an environmental advocate and a visually-oriented creative, she strives to promote the narrative that nature is for everyone, everywhere.After earning her undergraduate degree, she went on to pursue a career in nonprofit program coordination and partnerships management. She has since migrated beyond the development world and is primarily available for contract creative work.Sarah is honored to have been featured in a number of different publications and exhibitions. You can find her work with Daybreak Magazine, Photoworks San Francisco, and Emocean. She shared wall spaces with talented artists at the Orange County Fair, the Film Scouts store, and at the High Tides Sessions in Southern California. She also shot her first commercial brand campaign for Lasso Surf, a surf goods company from her hometown.Email: [email protected]: www.sarahplenge.comSubstack: “Blue Wine” at sarahplenge.substack.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/senditblondieStay tuned for Sarah’s anthology of her poetry coming soon!“On Pain” by Khalil GibranSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my long-time friend, hairstylist, style coach, and overall style icon Geena Mericle to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Geena is one of the most authentic and beautiful humans I have ever met in my lifetime, and she’s a true rainbow in human form. Not only is she one of my dear friends, but she’s also an expert personal stylist who’s had a direct impact on my personal style and how I express myself in the world. (She once told me I shouldn’t wear black because black clothing does not reflect my personality - I took her wisdom to heart, and I wear a whole heck of a lot more color now.)In our conversation, Geena speaks about feeling stifled in clothes that didn’t properly represent who she is on the inside, her core top value of expression, and how discovering your personal style can change how you show up in the world. I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation. Geena’s lens on clothes and self-expression is one I hold in high regard, and her views on supporting older women in expressing their true inner selves is one the world needs more of. Enjoy my continued conversation with the lovely Geena Mericle!“ Those moments, I've never taken it for granted getting to be in those intimate spaces with my clients and really understanding how they view themselves. And I can't do a lot, but I try in a two-hour session to at least turn the boat around a little bit to get them to start seeing and connecting with themselves again.“- Geena MericleMegan Gill: I feel like through our conversations about the work that you do, as far as, I call it helping people discover their personal style, I know we've had a couple conversations where you've been like, “Meg, shouldn't be wearing black. Don't ever wear black. Your personality does not match with black clothing. It's not the same vibe,” and honestly, I've really taken that with me. And I was very resistant to it at first, and now here I am in my mauve. I’ve found what works for me.Geena Mericle: Yes.Megan Gill: There’s something to this work that you do, so I'd love if you could share a little bit about it and how you've grown since maybe we've even last spoken about it.Geena Mericle: Yeah. Yeah, so I help women discover their authentic style, and I like to think of it as it's their self-expression. It's their inner self that's coming out on the outer surface for people to see and experience who that person is on an individual level. And it started with my own journey into this and working in an environment where I'm a hairstylist. And so, I worked in a salon where we wore all black and it was just a very fashion forward, edgy way of being in the beauty industry. And so, I didn't really question it, and I did it for years, and it was seen as professional. And so, that's where I was when I discovered this other thing of like, “Oh, well, if I actually dress to who I am and let that self-expression show, that resonates and that ripples out to other people,” instead of hiding and instead living to these old standards of beauty and rules that have just been created for over many years.The shift for me happened in 2016. Just being able to step back and really critically think about it, I've always been someone that has been interested in taking some sort of personality test and like, “Oh, like, I wonder what I am!” And just from a psychology standpoint just understanding myself a little bit better. I always had a desire to understand like other people too.And so, I was already doing things like that just in my personal life. And so, then when this frame of, “Oh, well, how you express yourself is also an extension of who you are,” that hit hard because I was like, “Oh, I've been totally –,” not ignoring it. I obviously was working in the world of beauty, but I didn't understand the power behind it until walking it out, understanding it for myself, and then turning around and teaching other people and helping other people. But that journey definitely started with me for myself first.And just over the years, probably since I've seen you, I've definitely grown into really honing in, not just what the framework is for, because I think it's for everybody to look at and understand. But I specifically am really passionate about aging and beauty, and over my life and my career, I have experienced clients and mentors of mine that have all, you know, said these things to me about how they view their own age and how they view themselves. And that has always been a part of me. But in the business I'm in today, that is who I'm running after is older women and showing them that they have a place in this conversation of beauty and they're not invisible. They deserve to feel fully expressed and authentic to who they are just as much as someone that's 21 and doing that naturally. I think each generation has their version of what that self-expression looks like. But if we follow the aging process, at some point, it’s been taught to you that once you reach a certain age, you're invisible, the world no longer sees you, and you kind of just need to give up, and I am here to dismantle those beliefs and help women really see their beauty again.Megan Gill: Ugh, I love that. We are not subscribing to that. I'm right there with you. As an actor and someone who is using my body to tell stories, I am very passionate as well about older women being able to show up as themselves and not feeling like, as an older actor, they need to get the Botox, and they need to fix themselves because that's not a proper representation of our actual world. So I'm right there with you, and I think that's really powerful work, and really impactful, and I'm just so glad that you're doing what you're doing.As I'm sitting here listening to you, I keep coming back to this piece of, well, if we are properly representing ourselves, our true authentic selves, who we are on the inside, outwardly, isn't that where our confidence really thrives and isn't that where we can truly be our best selves in the world because we're not hiding and because we're not feeling insecure and in maybe clothes that we don't relate with or clothes that – I know when I was wearing a lot of black, I was living in Chicago at the time, kind of like right before you told me all this. And I kind of had this, not bad bitch energy about me, but I was kind of closed off to others, and it was from a place of insecurity and from a place of, “Don't see me because I'm scared. I'm scared for you to see me. I don't want you to see me.”And so, I think that even in your simple comments to someone like me about exploring different color palettes even in the clothing that I'm wearing has really helped me shine, helped who I am as a person shine on the outside, and It's very fun because – and not to make this about me. But just as an example, I have just been hearing a lot more feedback from people around me lately about how vibrant I am and how much they love my laugh and all of these things that I really have to truly attest some of this feedback that I'm getting and some of how I'm showing up in the world today to something as simple as opening my eyes to see a different way of presenting myself to the world.And I really just thank you for, however many years ago, that was (five, six, seven years ago) for even just sitting down with me and opening my brain up to some of these concepts and to the work that you do, and I just think it's so important. And yeah, I just also wanted to share that about me because it's really cool and it feels really good to finally feel that confidence and even just in a place of I'm putting myself out there more which is scary. It's scary to put yourself out there and be vulnerable in any setting. And granted, I am 32 years old, so I can imagine if you're 52 years old or 62 years old, that it only compounds and gets more and more maybe daunting to kind of put yourself out there in a world where you maybe feel like you can't keep up as much.Geena Mericle: Again, to give people an insight of our relationship, we did meet in college, and I went and visited you in 2019. I came out to LA, so that's what we're talking about when I had this conversation with you.Megan Gill: I remember I came to Ladybird, which you are still working with them today, which is very cool, in kind of a different capacity.Geena Mericle: Yes!Megan Gill: But I remember I came and you did my hair, and that's the first time that you kind of told me about all of this. And I think that was 2018, right before you came out here.Geena Mericle: You’re so right! You're right, because I probably would have told you then about my own transformation, all that. Then I remember coming out in 2019 to visit you, and we'd had these conversations around your image. You were working in a fitness environment at the time, and I know you were just kind of struggling in that as well. And we’d had so many just in-depth, personal conversations through that week. I literally came home, got off the plane, and there was a double rainbow happening. I'm not kidding you. I got home. I have pictures of it on my phone. I don't even know if I ever shared that with you.Megan Gill: You probably did.Geena Mericle: But I I just remember I saw those rainbows, and it was a pivotal moment both of us, but I just knew that something amazing was coming out of that weekend together.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh. Me too. I think about it often, and obviously how much I miss you and just wish that we were closer proximity wise, in general. But yeah, it was really impactful. And I even remember we went to Malibu one day, and you inspired me to wear like these bright red pants with a white and red top and a red bow, which is funny because I wore that shirt on Valentine's day. It says “girls run thangs.”Geena Mericle: Yes.Megan Gill: I’m very single at the moment, so I was like, “Yes, it's red. Galentine's Day, let's go.” So I still have it, and that’s so much more of how I'm dressing in my daily life too, which is just so wonderful. And it's almost like I've known that you've had this impact on me, but I don't know that I've even got to express it to you in these ways. This also feels special to be able to kind of recall and realize like, yeah, that weekend was really, really pivotal for both of us, for sure.Geena Mericle: Yeah, and I think, switching back to the conversation of you wearing all black, and you were kind of projecting this image of, “Don’t mess with me Don’t look at me. I’m a badass bitch,” or whatever you said. It’s like that, I think you have to go through that journey of self-discovery too, right? You could look at a kid who is naturally expressing themselves and they're at a young age, and it would be so beautiful for them to grow up always expressing themselves and always knowing their truth and being authentic to who they are. But I think you also have to go through those stages where you're very distant from your authenticity, you're very distant from how you actually want to live and feel those seasons of anxiety, those seasons of depression. Those also teach you a lens that, when you do have it, you can see it, you can feel it. It is this internal feeling that your body can physically feel you’re showing up differently. You are attracting different people to you. These are all signals that you’re walking out into who you authentically are. This like resonant signal is being put out into the world, and it's returning back to you.I think where I'm at today, those hard seasons make me see when I am connected, it is something I've always dreamed of or something, you know, I've always – and it's not for other people. It's for me. It's for me to internally feel that way. And I think that with clothing and our bodies, you want to talk about body issues. People think being a personal stylist is probably such a fun job and it's exciting, you get to play dress up all day long. Okay, you're working with women in an intimate environment, and a majority of the time it's about their body and them feeling good in their clothing, and I could say, more times than not, it's about that. And Just being around that, being in those rooms with people has helped me just have that level of empathy.I have always been a plus-size person, and a majority of the time, I wouldn't say it ever really got to me in a crippling way. But just seeing people of any size experience the same thing, that's when it's like, okay, this isn't just a conversation around, “You're above this size. You must feel this way.” No, it could be someone that's a double zero still feeling that same exact way. And being in a dressing room with a woman, there's nothing more intimate and vulnerable than that space. And I even saw that for myself.I have a sister, and my mom was a single mom. And me and my sister were raised together. And I remember, oh my god, swimsuit shopping. It was always going to end in tears. It was always going to end not great. And same thing for prom dress shopping, any type of special occasion. The three of us would be jam-packed into the Sears dressing room trying on things. And, you know, I did grow up in a house where my mom never forced a diet on me, never said I needed to be a certain size and even just did nurture that side of me and didn't make it about my weight, and I really appreciate that. And the three of us, I mean, we change in front of each other. We walked around as it was because we're women growing up together. But dressing rooms specifically, for the three of us, I could put us all three back into a dressing room, trying on certain things, and just, you know, one of us is gonna end up crying. One of us is gonna end up in this desperate place.And, especially as someone that loves color and I have loved it since I was a kid, prom dress shopping, there were no color dresses for Geena, and I was only a size 14 at the time. I had to settle on wearing a David's Bridal bridesmaids dress that was navy blue.Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, which is just heartbreaking too. How are there not more options? And granted, it was like 15, 16, 17 years ago, but even still. I know that we still have these issues today with there just not being enough options for that plus-size range, which is just not okay.Geena Mericle: Yeah, so there's my personal journey. And then, becoming a hairstylist, that is also a very vulnerable place that you're in with – I work with everybody, but a majority women, and that is, again, a very vulnerable place to be. You're often wearing a black cape. Your hair is wet. You know, you don't look your best until after the service. And so, those moments, really, I've never taken it for granted getting to be in those intimate spaces with people, with my clients, and really understanding how they view themselves. And I can't do a lot, but I try, in a two-hour session, to at least turn the boat around a little bit, turn it around to get them to start seeing and connecting with themselves again.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm.Geena Mericle: And then layering, you know, now being a style coach and working with clothing, that has only amplified. It's only helped me see that window into self-image, into self-expression. That's the biggest thing that if I was to write down my values, that is definitely in the top three is when you don't express, when you don't listen to the inner voice, and I'm not just talking on like a visual place, when you don't express that, that is where depression creeps in. That is where you start to disconnect from yourself because you are avoiding really bringing that inner self outward in any way, any capacity. Maybe it's with your words, maybe it's with your clothing, maybe it's with how you're showing up at your job. That is all a form of expression. And I think it's our job as individuals to just, even if you can't be your hundred percent every day, it's like, you got to take that little micro step to it. And you wearing black seven years ago, there was no way you would have jumped to like rainbow dressing. There isn't. And I think there is a lot of resistance in that for many reasons, but it's my job to not force you to that place you're not ready for, but just to give you like a little telescope to be like she is there. I can see it, and I can see it off into the distance, and maybe one day I'll be there, but I'm here right now.And like with anything in your life that you're looking to change, you know, eating habits, your sleep habits, whatever, we know you can't just swing from one to the other. It has to be those small, little habits that build on top of each other, and expressing yourself through your clothing is that.Sometimes it's a hair barrette that starts or a pair of earrings or a pair of shoes, and maybe that's what you're really known for, and you love to express yourself in those small ways. But then it'll kind of build upon itself into, you know, maybe one day it's a full outfit. But even those small, little things that are just for you, that just show the world a little bit of who you are, that is just as important as having a closet full of clothes that are that perfect wardrobe for you. It's those little things that kind of add up to each other.Megan Gill: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because it's in those little tweaks that it feels more sustainable. And it's even in the the slow-game journey where it feels that's where sustainability lies. And that's also, I think, just letting your authentic self discover those things at a slower pace is, I think, gonna just lead you to where you're truly supposed to be instead of making these rash decisions like, “Let me throw out all my black clothes and get all new clothes.” No, we don't have to do that. We don't have to do that. Maybe just rack your closet and where's the color, because there's probably some in there somewhere, which is what you and I had done. And it is, wow, yeah, really cool to just even reflect for myself on how that journey went.I just had chills throughout everything you were just saying, too. Even being in the dressing room and being with women through these extremely vulnerable moments. And I think it's really lovely how you said if you can do one thing with your clients, it's to redirect the boat and get them to see differently because something that I've been noticing in my own self-work with body image is that I now see differently than I did pre-pandemic, I'll just say. Because it was 2020 when my personal body image journey really started to kick in and when I really started to take a look at myself and what exactly I'd been through.And I know at this point, I'm not working with clients on this level yet, but even in my friendships and in my interactions with women, especially in the modeling world and in the acting world, it is just kind of like how you said, it's those really vulnerable moments. These are two really vulnerable professions where your body and your self-image is so baked into it that I feel very similarly as you, just on a personal level. If I can like say one thing to my co-model on this job, if she starts like going there, you know, down the rabbit hole of the spiral about self-image and body and eating and exercise or whatever it may be, if I can just say one thing to help them see a little bit clearer and be like, “It doesn't have to be like that,” coming from the place of, “I was there. I was in your shoes. But it can be different.” And I understand that it's a slow-game journey because of that. And because, for me, it's now taken five years to really gain a lot of clarity around this body stuff for me and around what I went through.So I just think it's really, really lovely and important to hear that you are so aware of these things and understanding that you're in vulnerable settings with your clients, and I'm just so glad that you are doing this work and that the people you're working with have you and that you're so gentle about it. It's just really cool and wonderful.I'm wondering your journey from when you were working in the salon and kind of dressing to this standard of professional in the beauty industry, which is also funny, to kind of pulling yourself out of that and allowing yourself to express the fact that you love color and you love all of these fun clothes. I'm just curious how your relationship to your own body, if it shifted at all, how it kind of shifted throughout that specific process.Geena Mericle: Mm, absolutely. Yeah. I think what's so interesting is, again, I’ve been plus size pretty much my whole life, athletically built. And I remember as a hairstylist, prior to the work I do now, I would do a lot of fashion events just as what you're talking about, so working with models. Whether it's a photoshoot, whether it's backstage at a runway show, and that was pretty present in how I got to collaborate with other artists and get that creativity outside of the salon. I would just always be so excited, and then I would find myself like in the staging area getting ready, and that is really the only time I would start to compare my body to other people's. And I don't know if it was like picking up on them and what they were saying, what their conversations were having, were happening, or it was just watching them, you know, a designer tweak everything and measure and everything is focused, of course, on their body. And so, it’s like there’s this whole energy that happens in that backstage. And I can remember in those moments feeling pretty low about my own self-esteem. And again, we had to wear black T-shirts that said the salon name on it. I don’t love T-shirts anyways. So it never was like, “yeah, I’m so excited to wear this.” But those were the moments where I would walk away and I would just be like, “Ugh. Oh, I’ve just got to focus on like what I did creatively and not think about all that other stuff.”And when I transitioned to working with, you know, my business partners that were in the personal styling field, I thought at first that type of thing would follow me, like I would still do photo shoots and runway shows and be able to express outwardly in that way. And I did it for probably about a year, but I kept feeling the same ways. And I was working with two women who, on the surface, someone might say, “Oh, well they're in the fashion world.” But again, I was a part of these conversations and in these dressing rooms with real women who were hiring us for this service, and I was like, “Okay, we're not here because of fashion. We're not here because this is what's trendy.” We were kind of showing up as the anti to all those things.And I think being around them was the thing that just really opened my eyes to fully stepping away from that sphere and honing in on what it is that we were doing. And it did relate to how I was viewing myself. It was like creativity was fully unleashed in my clothes. I look back at photos from, you know, those beginning years, and I'm like, “Oh, my God, what was I doing?” But you’ve got to also look at it and be like, “I was freely, freely creating, freely expressing.” I was working with people that were not putting restraints on me in those ways as long as, you know, I looked put together to some degree, it was fine. They didn't care in that sense.And so, I think being around that environment just helped me shed all of that feeling that I needed to still be connected to that sphere because I was getting the joy of collaborating out of it for people. But what I was walking away with was low self-image, low self-esteem. So why would I keep putting myself into that position, you know? And I think that that does correlate with how I showed up, you know?Megan Gill: I just think it's, there's also something to be said about this like standard that you were experiencing at the shows and how you were showing up at the shows and how you felt you had to show up and also how systemically impactful that was to you and I'm sure to many other women and people in general, and I feel like that's also such an issue. And it's so lovely that the work you're doing and the space that Ladybird has created is so anti because I think that's, again, another step towards shifting these spaces over here, where it's like, “Okay, why does it have to be this way? Why does it have to be like that?” Because it's hard to hear that you felt like you were in those darker places or that this space over here led you to that darker mental space about your self-image and your body. And how if you were able to show up more as yourself, maybe you wouldn't have felt those feelings. And isn't that like the ultimate goal, I think, through like the work you are doing, and then also like through my lens of helping people relate better to their bodies. I want to shift those spaces.So I think also just pointing that out that you were there and you were experiencing it firsthand and then you grew away from that and realized it doesn't have to be like that and are now helping people to, hopefully, also see that it doesn’t have to be like that. Because even just in our culture and society at large, these trends and, my god, the fact that low rise jeans are coming back around. As a fit model who works with a lot of young, hip brands like Wild Table at Target, they are back, baby, and I'm fittin’ ‘em. And I have lowkey PTSD. But it's in this world that makes you think that this is how it is. And like, “Oh yes, this is trendy, so I must.” I think just helping others to have the discernment to realize, “Take what's for you, leave what's not, and just be true to yourself,” is such an important piece of everything that you were saying as well.Geena Mericle: Well, and I think just to go on that, definitely during that time I discovered high-waisted jeans, and I was like, “Oh my god!” I hated wearing jeans up until that point and was like, “Oh, this is an option?”Megan Gill: Honestly, same.Geena Mericle: Because low-rise jeans ruined everything for me.Megan Gill: Me too. Literally, me too. And same, I remember, I was never mad at my mom, not her fault, but just being like, why didn't someone tell me there was another option? Granted, it was –Geena Mericle: Well, they were being bullied because of their mom jeans! So we weren't going to listen to them.Megan Gill: That's so true. That's so real. All I want for the rest of my life are mom jeans.Geena Mericle: Mm-hmm. That’s what I’m saying! Every generation has their thing, and then it's like that almost gets weaponized against you, and you're like, “But that is true to who that person is,” you know? And I just want to see a world where, generationally, it doesn't matter if you're 50 and you want to cut your hair, or you want to have long hair, or whatever, it's like do it because you want to do it, you know? Stop living for your daughter's approval on your image or your husband's approval on your image. It’s like, “No! What do you want? What do you want for yourself?” That's the work to be done.And I think that we are turning a corner where women of all of ages are being able to see themselves in this way. I think it is being modeled through Hollywood in these actresses that are, Maybe they haven't even worked in years and they've come back. Pamela Anderson, I just look at her journey and I'm like, “Yes! You have full ownership of how you're showing up, and that is incredible, and that is the story to tell.” Like, mm.Megan Gill: Amen. Agreed. That is a word if I ever did hear one. And another one for me is Kate Winslet in discussing just her whole journey and even the way she's showing up as an actor now, I think is extremely empowering. And it seems that she hasn't had work done and that she is embracing her naturally aging face and body, and that's what we need on screen. That's what we need more of, because hopefully that then empowers the women you're working with to see, “Hey, that's me, and it's okay for me to rock my wrinkles.” It's okay because it's being portrayed in the media and in Hollywood at these levels.Geena Mericle: And I think we are gonna get there. We are gonna get there in our generation. And I'm like, if I can help change this narrative ahead of that conversation, I want to be a part of that. And this is a different lane, but studies on women are being done more than they ever have. Perimenopause is being talked about. And again, these are all things that I've not yet participated in. But I'm like, man, I'm so glad that this conversation is happening, so when I do get to that point, there's just going to be a lot more information. There's going to be a lot more we are openly talking about as women.Megan Gill: Right, and just the education around it too that we haven’t had before, yeah.Geena Mericle: Yes! So I would say that's my selfish goal is that I'm like talking to my future self and, like, “You're gonna get there, and you better let what you're saying today really sink in when you get there and those wrinkles start to show up and, you know, my gray hairs are already coming in.”Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Mine too, girl.Geena Mericle: So it’s like you’ve gotta walk the walk if you're gonna talk about it.Megan Gill: I agree. Thank you for bringing that up because I have been checking myself a lot with that as well. I will just say that, as an actor and a model, I've always said it's really important to me to not do work on my face and body as far as Botox and like altering certain things. I'm very grateful that my hair is lighter, so you can't necessarily see my grays. But my hair is natural. I'm trying to embrace the natural curls these days. Like, “Let's do it!”The one thing is I am currently writing a piece about laser hair removal, but it's for more than just a beauty reason. In certain areas I'm just having skin issues. But so I will point that out and just say that I'm not 100 percent here, but I do think it's really, really important to say, “Hey, I'm not going to get worked on on my face, and I'm going to stick to that,” and I know it might be hard, give myself 10, 15 years, and it might be really effing hard. But it's really important to me, and I agree with you. If I'm going to be in this realm and be preaching kind of a similar thing as you are, as far as, “Embrace your skin and your face and your hair as you age as an actor and a performer,” in this space, then I also need to walk the walk. And I think it's a really good way to hold ourselves accountable to that because I also believe that this is where the impact is. And again, no shade to anyone who wants to do what they want to do. That is totally on you. I think it's also just important to me, and it sounds like to you as well, to just empower women to know that you don't have to. And if you want to do it, but if you don't, don't.Geena Mericle: That is where I leave it. Because, absolutely, I work with people that get Botox, and I am of the camp that if that truly helps you, please do it. What I don't want anyone to ever feel like they have to do is because someone else is setting a standard for them. I'm someone that – I like purple in my hair. I'm not going to be fully granola crunchy ever probably, you know? So it's like, I'm not saying don't do anything.Megan Gill: Right.Geena Mericle: I'm just saying it from a point of don't let someone else set your standard. Don't let someone else put that on you. I mean, I could tell so many stories, and this is bringing it up to mind is I have had clients over the years that, again, they went to a plastic surgeon for something, and then it's often a man, and it's often a man who wants to tell you what else you can fix. And I’ve watched women go in and change these things about themselves because, again, that is being projected onto them from somebody else. And so, they could have gone into it with just a simple request or a simple thing they wanted to do, and then they left with, “I have to do all these other things to feel beautiful.” And that is what we're talking about here.Megan Gill: Absolutely.Geena Mericle: It's not the act of going and doing something. It's the act of someone else putting their standard on you.Megan Gill: Absolutely. And even in the acting world and the performance world, I think a lot of it is sometimes very subconscious. And if I'm an actor pursuing this thing and I'm watching television, and I see all of these actors who are very clearly in their like thirties/forties with no movement in their forehead, it's like, “Well, shit, if I'm going to book TV, I better get Botox because all of these actors on TV –,” I say all very loosely, “-- clearly have it too.”So, yeah, I think that this messaging can come at us through many different channels, and it can be dangerous. And I fully agree with you just as far as having the discernment to know the difference and to stay aligned with your True North for you, which I think is hard, especially as women who, I mean, just will never quite be at that same level as men are and who always feel like we have to be bettering ourselves and trying our darndest and wanting to just do whatever we can to get there and to be the best, especially when competing against men in certain fields, or whatever it is. Yeah, I think it's really just important to have enough awareness and confidence in yourself to be able to be discerning when making these decisions.Geena Mericle: Yeah. Yeah.Megan Gill: Oh, gosh.Geena Mericle: Like, look at Dolly Parton.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, totally.Geena Mericle: I love her, and she could do no wrong in my eyes.Megan Gill: Same.Geena Mericle: And so, I'm just like, I don't think she ever – from documentaries and things I've heard about her, she never did it for other people. She wanted to feel that way.Megan Gill: Yeah. Which is so fair.Geena Mericle: So that's what I think the difference is.Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And it’s so nuanced. So much about this conversation is extremely nuanced.Geena Mericle is a style coach and hairstylist dedicated to helping women feel empowered by discovering their authentic personal style. Whether she’s curating a wardrobe that truly reflects who they are or finding the perfect hairstyle to match their vibe, Geena’s goal is to make her clients feel confident and radiant. She believes that when we embrace our own unique beauty and show up as our true, authentic selves, magic happens.Email: [email protected] With Geena at Ladybird: www.ladybirdstyling.comGet Your Haircut by Geena: www.luminesalon.comInstagram: www.instagram.com/geenamericle“I want to see a world where, generationally, it doesn't matter if you're 50 and you want to cut your hair, or you want to have long hair, or whatever it is. Do it because you want to do it. Stop living for your daughter's approval on your image or your husband's approval on your image. It's like, “No, what do you want? What do you want for yourself?” And that's the work to be done.“- Geena MericleSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: This conversation contains discussion of eating disorders, nutrition, and body dysmorphia. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone please welcome my friend and acting consultant Jen DiBella to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Jen is an actor, acting coach, and acting career consultant. I’ve been working with Jen since 2020, and not only is she a wonderful human being, she’s also an insanely talented actor and knows exactly what she’s doing when it comes to helping actors.Jen approaches our conversation through her lens as both an actor and a coach. She spoke about her own body image story and shared how she brings what she has experienced in this industry into her coaching sessions and career consultations to help better support the actors she works with. Jen is incredible, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!Below, I’ve selected a few excerpts from our conversation for the blog. If you’d like to listen to the full talk, you can hit play above or listen on Apple Music or Spotify.When I was younger in dance classes, we had this dance teacher who was notorious for (I mean, rightfully so) coming up to someone going, “Are you okay? Are you eating?” this and that, and it almost became a goal to me and my best friend – and we were young, maybe 12 or 13. We wanted to have a talk with that dance teacher. We wanted that dance teacher to say, “Are you okay? Are you eating?” Because we thought that that was a spotlight being shown on us. Like, “We're thin. We're thin.” How unhealthy is that?- Jen DiBellaMegan Gill: It's also funny asking people, “Hey, do you want to get coffee with me and talk body image?” How fun! Can this be the norm?Jen DiBella: I feel like so many people in LA would be like, “No.”Megan Gill: “You want me to divulge all of the weird things that my brain thinks about my body?”Jen DiBella: And, like I said earlier to you while we were off record, it is something, my relationship to my body, my relationship to body image, is not only something that has shaped who I am as a person, but also an artist. In this industry, I've had to work with different tools to make me feel more secure when I'm feeling insecure. I think now as a consultant and talking to actors every day, of all shapes, sizes, colors, whatnot, there's more perspective for me to get outside of my own self and to hear what other people are concerned about, and then look back into the mirror going, “Okay, you just told that person they have nothing to worry about. Why are you worrying about this?” And I just think it's really important especially as a consultant and coach who just wants the best things for actors.Megan Gill: And for the actors that you love and that you work with and that you just see the good in them.Jen DiBella: I know I'm partial, but everyone I work with, I'm just like, “You're amazing! You can do this! You succeed at everything you do!” And I'm so proud of them, and so, it hurts my heart when someone gets a breakdown for a character and they go, “Oh, but they're gonna want someone like this. They're gonna want someone like this,” physically. I'm like, fuck that.Most of the time, no one knows what they're looking for, so give them the best option that they can find, and you're not going to be ignored. And second of all, just get out of your own way, I think is really what it comes down to. Just get out of your own way. You have no idea what they're looking for. You're limiting yourself.Now, you could say that, but then I'd do the same shit to myself, and I'd have to catch myself and go, “Okay, well, walk your walk,” you know?Megan Gill: Which is just so hard to do. It's so easy to sit here and compliment your friend.Jen DiBella: Yes!Megan Gill: It's hard to look in the mirror and compliment yourself.Jen DiBella: Yeah.Megan Gill: And isn't that just really sad?Jen DiBella: Because when it comes to seeking validation from partners, from friends, just having this conversation and prepping to think about certain things that did shape me with body image, when I was younger in dance classes, we had this dance teacher who was notorious for, I mean, rightfully so, coming up to someone going, “Are you okay? Are you eating?” this and that, and it almost became a goal to me and my best friend – and we were young, maybe 12 or 13. We wanted to have a talk with that dance teacher. We wanted that dance teacher to say, “Are you okay? Are you eating?” Because we thought that that was a spotlight being shown on us. Like, “We're thin. We're thin.”Megan Gill: Right, like that's the goal.Jen DiBella: How unhealthy is that?Megan Gill: Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. And it's wild, too, because that teacher was probably – good on that teacher for checking in with the students, absolutely. But the educator doesn't understand how that, then, affects the other students who are not having that conversation, or who are not being pulled aside. It's like, whoa, the psychological gymnastics of that then trickles out.Jen DiBella: But also, something that I hadn't thought about until you invited me to have this conversation – it’s interesting because, again, trigger warning for eating disorders, anorexia specifically. I think that these thoughts are there with you at a pretty young age and if you are – I don't want to say vulnerable to them. I don't really know where it comes from, but starting in dance classes, real young, I can remember looking in the mirror, because we all have to wear our leotards (hat was the uniform, obviously) and just thinking, “Oh, my legs are thicker than theirs. Why do I have a butt, and why don't they?”Megan Gill: Yeah, me too, girl.Jen DiBella: And then it was also just kind of like, “I'm so pale. I need to wear blush all the time.” Like, it also did develop into other things, and guess what? I'm still so pale. But it led to other things, but at a young age, thinking, “Okay, I look different in a leotard.” That was one thing.I booked my first commercial, maybe one of my first commercials, in seventh grade, and it was this big deal. I got to take Amtrak to a different location. I got to go with my mom, obviously. And they needed my sizes, and me and this – so I was probably 13 or 12, in seventh grade, right? Something like that? And the other girl, who was +18 to always play younger. She was 20, I think, and it was me and her in this commercial playing high school students or something. And she was a size zero. I remember they asked for numbers. Numbers is what always what it came back to you for me. So, she was a size zero. I was a size six slash eight. And I just remember, “But she's so much older than me. Like, why am I so young with this larger number?”Megan Gill: Oh, god, yeah. Yeah.Jen DiBella: And then trying on the pants that wardrobe got for me, also, let's just keep in mind, all sizes are not uniform. Every single brand that is mass produced, it's still a frickin’ struggle to find jeans that fit me correctly, for most people. And so, yes, a size six in whatever brand I was wearing, I was six. Whatever brand wardrobe got, I did not fit in the six. So they had to go out shopping and get it, and then all of a sudden I felt guilty for that because they had to go get me a different size. I also felt, “Why did I have another number that was larger than my co-worker?”And what's really sad – oh god, I feel like this is where my childhood kind of died. In a way. Oh my god, in a way. I had such a beautiful childhood. I love my family so much. But on the way to the shoot on Amtrak, my mom and I were so excited and like I got a Frappuccino from Starbucks and I got a big cookie for the train. And then on the way back from the shoot, my mom was like, “Do you want to get Frappuccino? Do you want to get –?” and I wouldn't have anything. And this is where it starts because I felt like I inconvenienced wardrobe that they had to go get a different size. First of all, props to wardrobe. They always have multiple sizes.Megan Gill: Right, yes. For this reason.Jen DiBella: They were not mad at me.Megan Gill: Yeah. No, no, of course not.Jen DiBella: They were like, “Oh, we need to go up a size. That’s fine.”Megan Gill: When you’re that young and this is your first experience with it, it's a big moment, and you don't really know what's going on, and you're taking it all in, and you're learning.Jen DiBella: So that's where the awareness started, and Seventeen magazine at the time, I just mentioned Frappuccinos, and they had some kind of article, “Are You Drinking Your Calories?” I think it was Seventeen magazine. I can't say. I loved Seventeen magazine,.Megan Gill: Oh, there was a lot of that stuff. A lot of diet culture, beauty industry baked right on into those magazines, yeah.Jen DiBella: Yeah, so then I was suddenly very aware of what I was putting into my body. Cut to two years later, I was a freshman in high school, and my best friend passed from cancer. That's a really young age, obviously, to have that happen, to have you try to wrap your head around what was happening. My friend was there, and then he wasn't.And so, I didn't know that this happened until I was in therapy but because I didn't have control of the death, I did have control of how much I worked out and how much I ate and how much I didn't eat. So, it became anorexia.____________Megan Gill: Something recently that came up for me is like, I am a fit model, so I'm getting measured all the time. This week I was measured way under what I normally am and I was like, “What the hell is going on? This is wild. But my brain instantly went, “Okay, we're going to go have pizza for dinner!” Like, no, no, no. We're not doing that. Like, yes, we are having pizza for dinner, but not because we are – yes, smaller. Like, no, no, no, no. And we can, we're allowed to eat the pizza. It's like, no, fuck no. We're always allowed to eat the pizza, and we should eat the pizza. It's still so difficult and hard to constantly keep up with that.Jen DiBella: Because we are in these industries, too. It's like, in general, I have so much sympathy for – and we touched on this before we started recording – body dysmorphia, too. And how your best friend can look at you and be like, “You're crazy. What are you talking about? You look amazing,” about whatever it is. But when you're looking in the mirror, that's when that voice is like, “Oh, this area of your body doesn't look normal,” or “This is not proportionate,” or whatever it is. We can be so mean to ourselves, but again, it's that voice, and sometimes you're just gonna be like, “Girl, bye.” Like, “No, not today. I'm busy. I don't have time.”Megan Gill: “I'm so busy. I don't have the mental energy and I don't have the space in my brain to dedicate to you!” Yeah. Because I don't know about you, but I spent way too much fucking time dedicating my life to that voice.Jen DiBella: Yeah, so then, for ourselves and the industries that we have picked, to be in entertainment, to be a fit model, oh my goodness, to just have a measuring tape anywhere. I mean, at this point now –Megan Gill: I know I understand that can be triggering.Jen DiBella: Yeah, and also on casting sites, you have the list of sizes. I never feel confident about putting one size up on there since because, you know, back to day one with that commercial being like, “I said I was a size six and clearly I wasn’t.”Megan Gill: Give a nice healthy range. Six, eight, ten, somewhere in there. Something will fit!Jen DiBella: “It depends!” But, now I trust wardrobe even more to, you know, pull up and and pull down sizes too. But, with all that being said, the industry that we're in, yes, there's the little girl who was trying to micromanage how much she was eating for whatever reasons. But then you go back to, okay, how does that apply to today? And even just the last decade of being in LA and pursuing this industry, you get these breakdowns, and then you assume, they want someone who's stick thin and looks like a model. Or, you know, talking about what my clients go through as well, We just naturally will limit ourselves if we read a breakdown (a character description). If we read a breakdown and it says, “She is a thin, natural beauty,” or something like that. And all of a sudden I'm like, “Well, am I thin? Am I not?” Or “She's relatable, real. We don't want any models.” I get that all the time where it's just like, “Let's have her quirky face, and she cannot be a model!” I'm like, “All right. Jesus!”Megan Gill: Got the memo!Jen DiBella: “Okay, a real person!” So, you know, there's that too, but then, on the other side of things, I have some clients who have expressed how frustrated they are about the lack of sensitivity when there is a breakdown for plus size, how there are certain breakdowns out there (character descriptions or a description of a role) that will be “overweight.” Like, “They are overweight.”Megan Gill: That's the descriptor that they're using.Jen DiBella: Yes, they're using the word “overweight” or “chubby.” They are, you know, like, whatever. And it's kind of – I don't have the answers of how that should be written. But should there be more sensitivity? I laugh because some of the ones that I've read for clients I'm like, “Jeez. Okay.” I just think that there's a different way that we can be describing real people.Megan Gill: Absolutely, and describing real bodies.Jen DiBella: Just real bodies in general, yeah, because people, like we all – oh my god, it's just, it's gotten so much better in the time since the Seventeen magazine days where, I don't want to name one iconic actress or model, but there were times where it was like, “How thin can you get?” And there were times in my life where I was like – and it's not too long ago – I was like, “I think I've reached the thinnest I can. I don't know how to get thinner. I don't know how to do it unless I starve.” And it's gotten better in the sense that I do see what I would say normal bodies are, which is just so crazy. I just saw an interview with Kate Winslet when she was doing the press tour for Titanic.Megan Gill: I saw this too.Jen DiBella: You know, like, the press was literally ripping her apart for being overweight. And Jennifer Lawrence, when she first came out too, when she got, what was the big one? What was Katniss again?Megan Gill: Hunger Games.Jen DiBella: Hunger Games. When she got Hunger Games, they were telling her to lose weight because she was plus size.Megan Gill: I'm also just, like, what constitutes being “overweight?” Like, what?Jen DiBella: What are you talking about?Megan Gill: Yeah, it's wild. It’s really wild.Jen DiBella: Oh, my gosh, and press in general, I can't imagine. Because I did come to LA when I was 16. And I am so grateful, at this time now, even though at that time, it was another SAG writer's strike, and nothing was actually happening too much. It wasn't that busy. But I came out here. There was a Disney/Nickelodeon casting director that really loved me, and was like, “Oh my god, we just need to scoop you up and put you on a set.” If that actually happened, if that worked, when I was 16-year-old me, very much still in the trenches of eating disorders, oh, my goodness. I just feel like it's so dangerous. I think it's so dangerous. You're not fully developed yet, and then as a young kid, if I had one experience on a set that something didn't fit, oh, my gosh, I can't imagine as a kid – and then you welcome the public opinion, it can be a very scary, unhealthy place.And so, I got the lay of the land when I was here when I was 16 for a couple months. My mom was with me, and she did too and she's like, “You're gonna go to college and get a head on your shoulders and then you can come back.” And that's what I did. I did stay in college. I went to Fordham in New York. I was dreaming of LA the whole time. So, a month later after graduating I did come here. But knowing what I went through, late teens and early twenties, just growing up in general, oh, my god, if – everything happens for a reason as far as when something doesn't land. I don't think I – oh, my gosh, I know that mentally that would have been detrimental to my life, I think, if something happened around that time because I was not equipped for it.Megan Gill: I can relate in my own ways. My body image stuff really didn't come to a head, until I was in college, really. That’s when it got pretty bad. So it's funny because I'm relating with you. I needed to go to college in order to move to a city, move to a big city. I needed that experience. I needed to come into my own and grow as a person – which, I just say it's funny because that's where the body image issues really became very clear and where I was controlling my eating and I had, like,Jen DiBella: Is there something that had triggered it originally?Megan Gill: Just growing up in the arts, growing up in dance, growing up in theater. But I agree with you on that, because I think that we are, as young people, so impressionable, and we don't frickin’ know. And having an experience – was it four years at Fordham?Jen DiBella: Mm-hmm.Megan Gill: Same for me, four years at Wichita State. I needed those four years to learn how to human so that I could then move to the city and actually be okay and not let myself get eaten up by the industry or let the industry tell me that I was “fat” or “too big” or “couldn't do this.”Because when I left high school, the messages I was receiving from people that cared about me, which I don't blame them for, was, “You're never going to be able to pursue Broadway if your body looks like this.” So I think I also would have just gotten eaten alive, and I wouldn't be here in LA acting. I don't know that I would be on the trajectory I'm on right now if I did just move to the city to pursue the thing. So I feel you on that.Jen DiBella: You know, it's interesting too because I went to high school with one of the best dancers I still know to this day, and she's a little shorter than the typical professional dancer, whatever the hell that means.Megan Gill: I know.Jen DiBella: And she's on Broadway.Megan Gill: Slay! Slay Queen!Jen DiBella: And we had a teacher that was basically like, “You're too short. “You're too short.”Megan Gill: God. Yeah.Jen DiBella: And who's to say that one opinion if everyone listened to that one opinion, that one naysayer they had in their past, we'd all give up by now. Forget it.Megan Gill: Oh, totally.Jen DiBella: I also – oh, my god, I just thought about this. Okay, so, I don't know why this always comes up in my life, but I think it's a fun fact. I auditioned for Zenon. So not the Xenon as in her role, but Zenon: Girl of the 21st Century. We love Zenon.Megan Gill: I was just talking about Zenon on Friday with some girlfriends! I freakin’ love Zenon.Jen DiBella: So I did not audition for that role, but I think it was Zenon III. It was some kind of sequel, which I don't know if anyone ever watched, but I was auditioning for, I wanna say, her cousin, and I was 11 or 12. Oh, my god, I remember – like, this is sad. Everything's fine, but it's sad that this is such a core memory at this point.So I had this little, teal tank top on when I was going to practice with my acting coach at the time. I am 11 or 12, tiny, tiny.Megan Gill: God, I’m not ready for this.Jen DiBella: I had this little, teal tank top that, I don't know, showed some kind of belly, I guess – not showed belly, but I had a little belly, I guess. And we do the scene, and we're in the lobby, and oh my gosh, thank god for my mother. My mother was also dragged into this. I was like, “Mom! I want to be on the box!” which was the TV. And she tried to ignore me for the longest time. And I was like, “Mom! I want to be on the TV! I want to be on the box!”Megan Gill: “I want to be on the stage! I want to be on the box!”Jen DiBella:And she's like, “Mkay, whatever,” and she signed me up for a musical theater class, and that was literally this little community thing. And of course, there was this touring production that came casting. They took my mom into the office being like, “We want to cast your daughter on this tour for the next year,” and she's like, “What? She’s 11.” She's like, “Ugh, I was just trying to get her to shut up!”So, with that being said, now cut to I started going out for TV/film things, and I'm in this acting coach’s whatever. This older woman, and we do the scene, we go back to the lobby, I'm with my mom, and in front of me, she goes, “She's just a little chubby, so she has to lose some weight.” I must have had just like baby fat. There was no way I was overweight. I'm just trying to paint the picture that there was no right for this woman to say this, and my mom was like, “I think she's perfectly healthy, but thank you so much.” She just shut it down.Megan Gill: Oh, thank god for your mom.Jen DiBella: But then we went to the grocery store right after, and I remember looking at reflections in an aisle, kind of like, I don't know, like maybe some plexiglass or something, trying to see if I had a stomach.Megan Gill: It's so damaging! It's so damaging!Jen DiBella: I was so little, and I still have the tape that we did for Zenon somewhere, and when my parents found it in 2020, I was like – I was in this space suit that we found from Goodwill. It was amazing. She did not get cast.Megan Gill: Iconique. Iconique.Jen DiBella: So good. She did not get cast. But She really tried. She wore the space suit. So, with that being said, It's like this little stick girl. I'm like, “What the hell? Why does he even say that?” Because it stuck.Megan Gill: And I think this also goes to just retouch on the fact that it doesn't matter what your body looks like. We all, I believe, have some semblance of these similar feelings about our bodies, and we all receive certain messages from people, society, whoever the hell it is, diet culture, whatever it may be. We are all receiving messages no matter what your body looks like.So I think that the narrative that your body has to look a certain – if your body isn't – if you have a slender body that you can't relate. I don't know, I feel like people like to be like, “Oh, well –.” Like you said earlier, before we started recording, people would always tell you that like, “You're fine. You're good. Your body's good. Don't worry. You have nothing to worry about.” But it's like, “Little do you know.” So let's not jump to those conclusions. I just want to point that out too because it's like perfect fucking example.Jen DiBella: But it's also an example of, you know, a lot of people just struggle with their weight if they're under, if they're at weight, or if they happen to be overweight. It's all inclusive as far as, you know, if you have body dysmorphia one way or the other, if you believe something's wrong, then game over, you know? But when, when you're talking about, you know, we're constantly given this – I forgot how you just put it. We're constantly given an opinion…Megan Gill: Messages from the world.Jen DiBella: Yes, yes!____________Jen DiBella: Before we started recording, I told you just last week, it might've been like two weeks ago, but I had an audition come through that the breakdown, I mentioned to you, I just immediately assumed, “Oh, they want a model. Oh, they want a model for this.” And, let's dissect what model means in my brain, when I was thinking that: they want someone stick skinny, so strong-looking, again, going back to the typical Victoria's Secret model back in the day – not back in the day, they still exist. But yes, that is what I was thinking of. And also gorgeous, and blah, blah, blah. And my brain was like, “You're not that. But let's proceed anyway.”So I decided to audition for it anyway and give it my all but also put my personality into it. When it comes to no one else can do what you do, no matter how you look, I was like, “Okay, I'm going to put my Jen spin on this, and I'm still going to give it my all.” I did, and it was one of those things where I was like, “Oh, it's probably embarrassing that I sent that.” The day after when I didn't hear anything, I even had a thought of, “Oh wow, that must have been really embarrassing to watch.” I was like, “Shut up. Just shut up.” The next day, I was on avail for it, so I came down to the last two. If people don't know what avail means, it's usually you're down to two or three people.And so, I did not wind up, actually booking it. But even getting that far, I had messaged my agent, “This was a major confidence boost.” And he didn't understand. He goes, “Oh, this is great news no matter what,” and I was like, “Okay, nevermind.” I wasn't going to go into detail. And guess what? They might have not been looking for what my mind put onto it. They did not say any of the things that my mind said. I just read a breakdown, saw this type of role, and went, “Ah, they're going to want X, Y, and Z.” They didn't say that. Why am I limiting myself?Megan Gill: And I think it's so hard when part of the job is when we're taping we're thinking, “What am I wearing? Am I doing my makeup? Am I doing my hair? How am I doing my makeup? How am I doing my hair? Am I wearing jewelry?” All of those elements are appearance based. It's so easy to jump right into that and to get caught in that time and time again, tape after tape after tape after tape. And then to self-criticize and maybe not feel good enough or not feel pretty enough time and time and time again, and it's like, oh, god. I don't want anyone to be in that position Yet, I think that so many of us are.Jen DiBella: Yes, and I definitely want to just keep saying I just want to include all perspectives on this when I think of my clients who happen to be considered plus size. And when they show me these insensitive breakdowns, they get these insensitive breakdowns and then they have to tape it, almost like putting on this thing of acceptance that, “I'm going to accept that I'm overweight, and that's why I'm taping.”Megan Gill: Or “I got the audition because they think that I'm overweight”? Excuse me. I'm honestly still processing that. I'm beside myself that that's a thing.Jen DiBella: Yes, and I also have clients who, you know, let's say that they're due for new headshots. And I'll have clients who want to wait three more months, or four more months, or whatever it is, because they're like, “Well, I just want to lose weight. I want to lose weight.” I was like, “These are headshots. It's your face,” and I don't want to take anything away from them, but I'm almost so passionate about being like, “You're so wonderful as you are, and waiting three or four months, sure, whatever you want to do for your business, but I don't want it to be, ‘Maybe I can lose weight from my face.’”Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah.Jen DiBella: That's the stuff that I'm going to let everyone, obviously, it's their own career. They can make their decisions, but I wish that I could take that concern away from them and just not make it a concern, I guess because I relate. Because we can be mean. We can be real mean to ourselves. And we had also said before, because I want to be so transparent, that every time I do a full body slate, I'm like, “Don’t look at my body.”Megan Gill: Same, and then I find myself putting on jeans or clothes that hug my body. I'm challenging myself lately to just put on the baggy jeans and full body slate in the fucking baggy jeans, because why do we have to like appear small?Jen DiBella: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Megan Gill: I hate it. So I just want to throw that in there too because I'm with you.Jen DiBella: Man, as a real challenge to myself I did start doing that. I started going, “No, I'm going to wear the clothes that I feel comfortable with. I'm not going to wear the skinny-ass jeans that I literally can't breathe in.”Megan Gill: Right, or the clothes that are appropriate for the character or the role also.Jen DiBella: Yep, one thousand percent. And let's just say it's similar to wearing makeup or not wearing makeup for a role. I personally love the weird hackers, the really intelligent scientists, the blah blah, who, guess what? The way that I'm doing that character, they don’t give a fuck about what they look like.Megan Gill: Exactly, yeah.Jen DiBella: And so, that person doesn't like playing with makeup. Jen DiBella likes playing with makeup, loves all of the things and watches all the YouTube videos. But that character, they don't care. They're like, “I'm literally cracking the code for X, Y, and Z, get out of my face,” you know?So, I love when a character like that comes along because I have no problem going there. I've only recently found out there are certain actors who are like, “I will never not wear makeup for a tape.”Jennifer Lauren DiBella is a SAG-AFTRA actress originally from Long Island, New York. You may know Jennifer from her recurring role in Grey's Anatomy or other credits such as 9-1-1, and CSI: Vegas.She received her BA in Performance from Fordham University at Lincoln Center. During her time at Fordham, Jennifer studied abroad at the London Dramatic Academy where she trained in classical theatre. Splitting her time between LA and NY, Jen has appeared in various TV shows as well as commercials. She has continued her training at places such as John Rosenfeld Studios, Scott Sedita Acting Studios and The Groundlings School of Improv.Passionate about the business side of the industry, Jen also acts as a Career Consultant and Acting Coach.Email: [email protected]: www.jenniferlaurendibella.comBiz Instagram: www.instagram.com/jdactingconsultantPersonal Instagram: www.instagram.com/jendibella“My relationship to my body and my relationship to body image is not only something that has shaped who I am as a person but also an artist. In this industry, I've had to work with different tools to make me feel more secure when I'm feeling insecure. I think now as a consultant talking to actors every day of all shapes, sizes, colors, whatnot, there's more perspective for me to get outside of my own self and to hear what other people are concerned about, and then look back into the mirror going, “Okay, you just told that person they have nothing to worry about. Why are you worrying about this?”- Jen DiBellaSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow fit model Jas NaTasha Anderson to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! She’s an actress, model, and fit model in Los Angeles. Jas and I met on a fit job in the summer of 2024, have kept in touch ever since.Jas’ openness and vulnerability throughout our conversation brought us both to tears, and our connection over what it was to grow up in the ‘90s and early 2000s in an era where small bodies were prioritized has led us down a path of deep unlearnings to embrace our bodies at whatever size they may fluctuate to be. Jas said she never lost a job because she was bloated one day, and I couldn’t agree with her viewpoint more. I hope our conversation inspires you to discover the confidence within yourself no matter the current shape/size of your body!“It’s been empowering to be this size and to be booked as this size. To be bookable at this size is empowering because even though my mind still goes there, I can check myself and be like, ‘You’re gonna show up however you look tomorrow, and you’re still hired to be there for looking exactly how you look.’ You don’t have to do the whole charade.”- Jas NaTasha AndersonJas NaTasha Anderson: So, for example, right now I'm a size 16, like 14/16 but I'm scaling closer to 16. Being hired for that all, my mind in general, just like whenever you have a booking, my thought process is like, “Let me detox. I'm going to stop eating at five this day. I'm gonna, you know, only have soup and salad this week.” I did that all last week –Megan Gill: No.Jas NaTasha Anderson: – because I had a runway show on Tuesday. And so, I ate like crazy over the holidays.Megan Gill: As we should!Jas NaTasha Anderson: As we should! No, and I didn't hold back, you know?Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Like, I'm back in The South. I had Bojangles. I had like, you know, all this stuff. But with that in mind, knowing that I have to be in swim, I was like, I know that I'm definitely like, at least ten pounds over. And so, I did do like a little weekly detox, and I dropped the ten, and it wasn't actual fat loss, you know, it's just crap.But anyway, I'm saying that to say that like I still kind of have that in my mind sometimes where I'm just like, “Oh, yeah. I booked something tomorrow. Let me start myself today,” and then it's like, “But you were booked to be the size that you are right now.”Megan Gill: Mm-hmm, and why is that so ingrained in our head from this culture that is obsessed with being smaller than – just being small in general. Oh My god, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, truly.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, but it's been empowering to be the size and be booked as the size. To be bookable at this size has been empowering because even though my mind still goes there, I can check myself and be like, “You're going to show up however you look tomorrow, and you're still hired to be there for looking exactly how you look,” which we talked about before.Megan Gill: Yeah, and therefore you don't have to not eat or drink –Jas NaTasha Anderson: You don’t have to do the whole charade.Megan Gill: Yes, yes, the charade! That's exactly –Jas NaTasha Anderson: You don’t have to do it. That is a fucking choice.Megan Gill: And that there's a world in which we don't do it. And I'll share that I don't know how – I really don't know how that I’ve gotten to this place, and I know it could very well be a temporary place. But I've given up the charade, and I'm never ever gonna go back to it because of my, now, awareness of how it impacted me mentally.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah. That's amazing, though.Megan Gill: And it feels weird to say that because I just – I don't know. Again, I think that how would I feel if I were on like the upswing, and how would I feel if I were like 20 pounds heavier, like I was two years ago or whatever? Would I feel the same way I do now, and like is the freedom correlated to the fact that I've been able to maintain the same – my body hasn't changed much in the last year or so, and is that because of the freedom? Or is that just because I'm not obsessing about it anymore? Or is it just chance? Is it honestly just like – I don't know, I guess these are just like questions that go through my brain, because I've fully given up the charade. And what I want for all of us is to fucking give it up.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Completely.Megan Gill: And so, it's really awesome to hear that you're at least like, like – of course those thoughts are gonna pop up. They pop up for me too, don't get me wrong.Jas NaTasha Anderson: But just don't entertain them.Megan Gill: Yeah, we're not doing it. And granted it sucks because you're right. Ugh, at the end of the day, this is our job, and we technically have to be within a range of like this specific body that this client is booking. But truly how much is – so I understand when you're like, “I need to get back to this place.” It's also like – agh, agh! This is the part that I'm grappling with. It's like how do we still maintain work in this field and just not…Jas NaTasha Anderson: Have those fears?Megan Gill: Yeah, and not put ourselves through that, or not even have to “get back,” even though we maybe know. It's like, ugh! And I feel like it's systemic. It's the industry at large. I don't know that we can control anything about that, but if I could shift anything, I feel like that's what I would want to shift.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, I think that I'm so appreciative of the whole, you know, body positivity movement because the industry is a totally different one than, you know, what so many people grew up in and what we saw growing up and, you know, we have representation. We never had that, you know, before.And so, I think that I'm thankful that we are in it now where bodies are celebrated and where they are booking models that look like real people, and I really appreciate that. I don't know that I would have a job if, you know, if it was not that.Megan Gill: Same, girl.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah. So, yeah, I really contribute a lot of that to just where the world is now and people speaking out about it and wanting to see real people and reflections of themselves, and we need to have representation.Megan Gill: Absolutely.Jas NaTasha Anderson: But I think what has helped me a lot is, like I said, I signed with my agency at a size 12, and now being a size 16, having that fear of, like, “Oh, they're going to drop me,” you know? And they just check in, “What's your size right now? What are your measurements?” and then they submit me for that. And then, “What are your measurements? Okay, we're gonna submit her for this now.” And that in itself has just been so beautiful, and I so appreciate them for that.Megan Gill: Oh, god. Yeah, dude.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Because there's real fear of, like, “Shit, I'm not gonna book anything anymore.” And it's been the opposite! My bookings have actually gone up, and it's been amazing!Megan Gill: Hell yeah! And how incredible to, again, to be able to prove to yourself in that way of like, “Oh my god, I really truly can be myself and embrace who I am.”Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, at any size, whatever is going on. Yeah,Megan Gill: And also I'm so glad you shared that about your agent just fully supporting you through that and not even making it a thing. Yep. I had a similar experience where I've been with my fit agency for five years now. When I first moved to LA, or when I first signed with them, I was pretty – right now I’m 8/10-leaning. When I first signed with them, I was about the same, a true 8/10-leaning, in there. And then, about a year later, the pandemic hit, of course, and I gained weight, and I was terrified to tell her.Megan Gill: And I remember I was still going in for castings for – I was, like, 10/12, maybe 12-leaning at that point, and I was still going in for castings for like specs for size 8.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah.Megan Gill: And I was so terrified of just having that conversation with her from like past trauma with people in like positions of authority and power that I didn't even want to bring it up. But the second I did, and I was like, “Hey, Katie, I need to be remeasured! I've gone up a size or two or I don't know.” And she was like, “Totally cool. All good.” And kind of similar thing, she didn't make it a thing. We remeasured, and we moved on, and that's when I started to get more clients on my roster as well.I carry that with me every single day. The gratitude that she, in this very specified industry, where our measurements are what are getting us the castings and ultimately booking us the job, that she, like your agent, didn't even freaking think twice. Like, thank you.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah. And it's just like, “Okay, cool, now we know what to submit her for.”Megan Gill: Yep, yep, yep, yep. It’s that simple, and that's how it should be.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Because I think there was a world where that was not the case. And so, even though, I mean, I wasn't in the industry at that time, but of course you know, and you hear. And so, there are these fears that are just kind of there.Megan Gill: Yeah, and honestly, even with other agencies who knows what's going on? Thank god for these two specific agencies, but who knows what's going on at other agencies?Jas NaTasha Anderson: Oh, yeah, I don't know, and I really hope that they also, you know –Megan Gill: Have that grace?Jas NaTasha Anderson: – have that experience, yeah. I'm definitely thankful.Megan Gill: Me too.Jas NaTasha Anderson: I think that we lucked out in getting, you know, with just really good people that are genuinely just really kind, really lovely people.Megan Gill: Yeah, and just like us because of us. Like sure, yeah, we're bookable, but it's cool that you've now seen that you are bookable at this size and this size. And same for me. It's like, “Oh cool! This is amazing.”Jas NaTasha Anderson: And they're just so excited to submit you and, you know, book you out.Megan Gill: Yeah, it's like what a lovely experience to kind of debunk some of that beauty-standard, diet-culture bullshit we've been fed our whole lives.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, oh, my gosh. Yeah.Megan Gill: Yeah. It's so weird because this whole thing for me, this exploration of what is it to move the conversation away from centering what we look like and centering the shape of our bodies and all of the stuff, moving it away from that. Yet, at the same time, the importance of having the representation and the fact that we can't really escape it.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah.Megan Gill: I'm having this, like – I don't know. I don't think it's escapable, I guess. So it's like how do we start to make these shifts for ourselves and talk about this more so that hopefully if someone's listening to this and they're, like, “Oh, my agent made me feel like shit because I went up a size,” hopefully they can now have the discernment to, in that next conversation, advocate for themselves, and/or maybe get a new agent, I don't know but, you know?Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, exactly. Or that because that probably needs to happen if they're judging them for that. Like, no one's body is perfect. We're not machines. It's not going to stay the same ever. Like you said, you're going to fluctuate. And some more than others. I feel like I've fluctuated all my adult life, you know? But, yeah, I don't know.Megan Gill: I hear you. Do you find with fitting specifically, because they're only taking photos internally, do you find that when you show up, sometimes it's like, maybe you, like, don't have makeup on, or, like, for me, I have some – and this is so silly and cosmetic, and 'm working on it, but I get some acne on my back, and sometimes if I'm in certain garments, fitting brings up these little insecurities that maybe are only brought up because I'm on display in front of people that I'm all of a sudden insecure about. Do you ever come up against things like that?Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, that's a really good question because you literally are, like, standing there in front of sometimes a group of ten people, and they're all just, like, staring at your breasts or staring at your –Megan Gill: Butt! [Laughs]Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, and it's like, this is really invasive! [Laughs] It's like every day when you get dressed in the morning, you don't have ten people in your house watching you get dressed. But that's what this job is.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm.Jas NaTasha Anderson: And so, I think in the beginning, I did have a little anxiety about that and insecurity as far as – I can't think of any specific insecurities that would come up, but definitely the feeling of, “Ahh!” Like, “Oh no! They're gonna find something!” you know? Or, you know, just the constant fear of, “Oh, this is going to be my last time here because I'm too fat or too whatever,” you know?And then when they're like, “How do you feel? Is it okay? Is it digging anywhere?” And then, especially if you're exactly what they're looking for as far as measurements, then I'm like, “Hey, you know what, this actually can be let out,” and then you kind of take charge, and they're giving you that platform to do that. And you're like, “Okay, this should be like this, or this arm loop is too far.” And so, then I feel like I found my confidence in that because, again, we are there to be ourselves, and we're there to be the size that we are to help them sell a better product.And so, I think what it was is the last one that we did together, the swim one, having everyone just turning you around and, you know, you're truly on display.Megan Gill: Yeah, in a bathing suit. And there were men –Jas NaTasha Anderson: There were men there.Megan Gill: – there with that account. A lot of times there aren't, so I feel like that also, for me –Jas NaTasha Anderson: I think that was my first time having a man in the room.Megan Gill: Like, “Ahh, why is this extra weird?”Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, it was a little…Megan Gill: They're very, very respectful, like the sweetest, but it's just a little bit like eek.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, it’s a little – yeah. I think that just naturally you feel more comfortable in front of women. Like, especially when you are, you know, having any insecurities about that. But I'm trying to think of what it was. Oh, yes. Insecurities, right.So I have an insecurity about my legs are longer and my torso is shorter. So normally that's something that, in a swimsuit or in something where I might feel kind of awkward, but as they're asking me questions and stuff now, I'm just like, “This doesn't need to be taken up. My torso is shorter, so don't worry about that.”Megan Gill: Yes, I experience the same thing!Jas NaTasha Anderson: “It fits on me a little bit differently than it would on the normal size 16.” And they're like, “Oh, okay, great. Thank you,” or like, “In here, I'm like, oh, I'm a little more narrow here, so you don't have to let this out or anything.” And so, that has kind of helped me to take control over it and not mind those insecurities.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm, embrace them instead.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Embrace them because, again, you're helping people. You're helping everyone. Everyone wants to feel beautiful when they wear this thing.Megan Gill: Absolutely, and there are going to be people, women, whoever is wearing the garment, truly, that have those longer legs, and there are going to be people that have shorter legs and have this and that. It’s like so all of our bodies are so different. So I love that you're bringing this up, because I'm like, “Yes, yes, yes!” I've also been right there with you.It's been really an empowering way for me to embrace my body and everything about her because I'm so grateful to be this person chosen to fit this for everyone in America that's going to go to Target and buy these clothes. Like, god, that's just really cool.Jas NaTasha Anderson: And be honest about it, and be honest about like, “Hey –.” Because in the beginning, I felt uncomfortable speaking up about things. And so, there were certain things that didn't necessarily fit right, but I'm like, “Oh, that feels okay.” And then like hearing the other more experienced girls say like, “Well, it doesn't feel…,” and I'm just like, “Oh, they can talk to them like that? I didn't know that was a thing.”Megan Gill: Yeah, same.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Not that they're rude, but just very direct. And so, now I'm like, “Hey, this can go here.” Like, “I need more coverage on the butt.” And I'll be like, “Is this supposed to be this cheeky?” And they're like, “Oh, no.” And I'm like, “Okay, let's bring it down a little bit,” you know? It has been such a positive experience. And I didn't know what it would be, but I'm really happy that it was a really positive one.Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh. Yes, truly, and same. It's like I have to attest this work to the place I am in as far as how I'm relating to my body and my body confidence and all of that stuff now, too. Because I'm just sitting here thinking all of these things, even like you were saying, your general confidence. I was like, you know? I've always been like a confident person, but there's a different air about my confidence now, and I think a lot of it is being able to like is because I've learned, in a fitting setting, to be able to speak up and advocate for the fit, and therefore I'm now learning how to advocate for myself in my life and use my voice to speak up for myself in other areas of my life. And it's like how does that compute, but it makes sense because we're just practicing it so much over here in this space that and in these spaces that of course it’s translating over here, and how cool is that?Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, it really is. I definitely feel that. Like that confidence showing up in all other areas as well, yeah.Megan Gill: Oh my god, this is just so fun to talk about! I've never spoken about this stuff with another model before!Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, I know, because, I mean, I feel like models don't talk about this, But then also, I feel like I've connected with the girls who I feel like I'm, like, friendly or friends with, but, you know, we don't hang out that often on a one-on-one basis.Megan Gill: And divulge into all of this nitty gritty. Oh my gosh, okay, one other thing that you said earlier, I felt this hit me. When you were, like, we equate being bigger to not getting the job or not being hirable or –Jas NaTasha Anderson: Less than.Megan Gill: Mm-hmm, being literally less then. And I just can't with that, and I just hate that that's what our experience is, what society has conditioned us, and a lot of it probably is when we were – the era we grew up in, too.Jas NaTasha Anderson: A hundred percent. Like, everyone was like a double zero.Megan Gill: Oh, my god, yes. And then I mean, in middle school and high school, a lot of times in my dance classes, at school, I was a taller, bigger kid. And it was like, “But why don't I look like that?” And so, all of this, the years and years of this conditioning, it's like, well, yeah, it makes sense that this is showing up for us in this work, that we're in these rooms thinking, “Oh my god, if I get any bigger, they're not going to want me.” Because how many times has that –Jas NaTasha Anderson: And that thinking contributes to you getting bigger because you're now stressed.Megan Gill: Yes, and hyper focused on it.Jas NaTasha Anderson: And hyper focused, and maybe you're, you don't cope well with that. And you might be overeating, or like doing whatever, and yeah.Megan Gill: Or restricting, and then it's making the problem worse, and actually – yeah, yeah. Yep. Oh my god, yes. And it's just devastating for me to – not for me, but it's just devastating.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, I definitely can relate.Megan Gill: I can't handle how devastating it is that that's like what so many of us – and I have to believe that it's in a lot of different shapes and sizes, just innately what we believe about ourselves.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Oh, of course. Yeah.Megan Gill: And I feel like we are moving away from that as a society, which is really cool.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, we are.Megan Gill: And go Gen Z! All of these young kids, I can't stop thinking about them as well. It's like I want them to have a different experience than we had, right? So that they're not dealing with this shit now in their adult life.Jas NaTasha Anderson: Yeah, I feel like they already kind of are because there is so much representation, but then obviously there's like the whole other side of social media, and that's a whole other thing. But I feel like they definitely are seeing more bodies than we did. I remember being, like, 12 and 5'7 and everyone else was still, you know, 5 feet, and, again, double zero, and little, teeny, tiny, teeny boppers. And I always felt out of place and big because I was tall. I wasn't overweight, but you kind of mentally think that, you know, if you are just much taller than everyone else. So yeah, it definitely started then.I was thinking about this yesterday. I was watching a podcast; I don't know if you've seen it. Raven-Symoné has a podcast with her wife.Megan Gill: I haven't, but I love this.Jas NaTasha Anderson: I don't know her wife's name, but it's such a great podcast.Megan Gill: Okay, I'll have to check it out and yeah, share it!Jas NaTasha Anderson: God, I forget her name, but anyway, this comedian was talking to her about how, you know, she was like, “I don't have to work as hard or do as much because of you, because you walked so that we can, you know, fly.” And it's so effing true, and I commented under saying that I literally am in LA pursuing what I am because I saw Raven. I saw someone that looked like me, and I saw that she was not a size zero. “She looks like me, and she's on TV, and she's on Disney, and she's doing all the things that I have always dreamed of doing!” And so, that was just such a beautiful moment of remembering that yesterday and, wow, I actually am here because I saw that and believed that I could. And so, to think that I can also have that impact on someone, anyone, just one person, you know?Jas NaTasha Anderson is an actress and curve model based in Los Angeles, CA. She’s represented by Luxe Fit Models and Brand Models and Talent. She’s an ambassador for the brands Yitty and MICAS and was most recently seen in the impactful “Hims and Hers” commercial for Super Bowl 2025.Email: [email protected]: @iamjasnatashaSubscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Everyone please welcome Emilia Ray to Continued Conversations! Emilia directed my short film A Broadway Body and is an influential voice in the body image conversation as an actor, director, and intimacy director/coordinator. We began discussing body image in musical theatre back in 2021 and haven’t stopped since. I’m so excited to share our conversation with you because Em’s perspective is culture-shifting.The work Emilia is doing empowers actors to advocate for themselves on set, on stage, and in performance settings in order to feel safe and supported in their work. I can first-hand say her work on set is deeply powerful, and I cannot wait for her upcoming Intimacy For Actors workshops to hit the Los Angeles community!We kick off the conversation by diving into a discussion of being first-time filmmakers when we produced “A Broadway Body” and how it felt to tell that particular fictional story. We then dive into many other topics pertaining to bodies and the arts. Our full conversation is on our Substack. Head to abroadwaybody.substack.com to read the full blog post! Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss eating disorders, food intake, and over-exercise. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.Everyone welcome my dear friend Katelyn Stoss to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! She’s a choreographer, director, creator, educator, and performer. Katelyn and I have known each other since our Freshman year of college at Wichita State University, and it’s safe to say that we’ve witnessed each other through many different phases of life over the years.She’s just a wealth of knowledge as both an educator of performers and performer herself and how body image ties into it all. Our conversation went on for eons (because, of course, we’re besties), but I wanted to share a snippet of it with you here.“I don't remember a specific time of it being like, ‘Nope, this is no more. I can't do this,’ because when it's all around you and that's what everybody's doing, and the ones who seem to be doing it the best are being rewarded, it’s hard to convince yourself that you need to stop.” - Katelyn StossKatelyn Stoss: When you're in a dance studio specifically, like you already have a mirror in front of you all of the time. So you're painfully aware. You're using that mirror as a tool the entire time you're there to correct and to learn how to self-correct and to feel the difference of like your body positions and things. So of course you're noticing as your body grows and changes and how the girls all around you, in my case, were much thinner and leaner. And I'm a short, stocky athletic build, and I remember distinctly in college being -- one of my best friends was in a ballet class with me and then also a modern class, and we lovingly called ourselves The Back Row Beauties, but that was the subtext of it was that we were not going to be in the front because we were not built to be in the front, not because we were incapable of doing all of the techniques correctly or doing them beautifully. It just -- we were well aware because we were both studio kids.And on top of seeing yourself in that mirror over and over -- I mean, I have vivid memories of working out in the studio, you know, doing conditioning and being on my back. And like, we were stretching after doing a bunch of abs and pushups and things, and one of the guest teachers kind of took – like, really set in about how bad corn was for us and how fattening corn was and how we shouldn't eat it.Megan Gill: Like, what?Katelyn Stoss: And I'm like, maybe 10 or 11 at the time.Megan Gill: Oh, my god.Katelyn Stoss: Like, really young. And I'm sitting here thinking, “Corn's a vegetable! What do you mean?” you know?Megan Gill: Yeah, especially because I'm from the Midwest where corn is a part of our culture.Katelyn Stoss: Right! I'm like, “Eh, it's summertime ,girl. We are eating that corn!” I'm over here just trying to stretch my hamstrings, but I'm, like, getting all of this messaging that, like, “Oh, something that I didn't even realize wasn't technically healthy, now that's off limits too, you know?Megan Gill: Right, and I feel like it just keeps getting worse and worse.Katelyn Stoss: For sureMegan Gill: The more we take those and the more we realize, “Oh, so I can't, I can't eat this. I can't eat that. Oh, I shouldn't eat this.” Like, especially in the dance world where it's --Katelyn Stoss: It snowballs. It snowballs until you're eating rice cakes and, what, raisins, I don't know, with peanut butter?Megan Gill: Celery? I’m having bad memories.Katelyn Stoss: Celery. Let's talk about our top three, probably, in college: celery, peanut butter, rice cakes. That's what people were eating in between dance classes and on breaks. And it wasn't like that was their snack. Sure, we would say it was our snack. It was our lunch. It was our breakfast. It was what we came home to in our cabinets at home, and then we’d, like, pretend that it was dinner.Megan Gill: Right.Katelyn Stoss: Like, it's not.Megan Gill: Which is just really not okay.Katelyn Stoss: No, we were not fueling.Megan Gill: No, exactly! And that's part of the issue too is that it's really devastating that we were not actually satiating our bodies and giving ourselves enough energy go and move as much as we were, specifically when you're in a college program --Katelyn Stoss: Yes.Megan Gill: -- where you are dancing all the time and you're walking to all these classes and you're conditioning and probably going to the gym on your own time. It's like, this is not okay. Where's the education around how to actually fuel our bodies, like you said, with the proper nutrition? Yeah.Katelyn Stoss: In a healthy way.Megan Gill: Right.Katelyn Stoss: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that you have something to actually burn and then you are building the appropriate muscles and those things. Like, sure, some of us were getting pretty thin, but we weren't strong. We weren't, you know — maybe we were looking better on the outside but we were crumbling on the inside.Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely 100%, and it does just snowball, like you said, to a point where — was there a point for you where you realized, “Okay, I cannot do this anymore”? Was there like a bit of a breaking point that you can recall?Katelyn Stoss: I mean, I know that I personally went through bouts of bulimia briefly in high school and then it came on pretty strong my freshman year of college once, like, the reality of those pressures of if I wanted to have a career in this I was, I guess, going to have to change something, I don't know.I don't remember a specific time of it being like, “Nope, this is no more. I can't do this,” because when it's all around you and that's what everybody's doing and the ones who seem to be doing it the best are being rewarded, it's really hard to convince yourself that you need to stop. You know what I mean?Megan Gill: Yeah.Katelyn Stoss:I don't think that I really got out of any of that until I had graduated and started living an adult life on my own. And I was like, “Oh, you know, I probably could eat.”Megan Gill: Yeah. My god, yes.Katelyn Stoss: Do you remember a specific time where you were like, “I'm not doing this anymore”?Megan Gill: I do, and it was after college. It was actually after — the summer after we graduated, I had done a show, and during that show I was eating paleo.Katelyn Stoss: OhMegan Gill: And truly, for the amount that I was moving my body in, like — we had a two-week rehearsal process —Katelyn Stoss: Yeah.Megan Gill: — and two weekends of shows or something. In that month span of time, I was not eating enough for the amount that I was moving and dancing. And that's when I really came to a bit of a binge after that, when I decided to go off paleo, and I had this awakening —Katelyn Stoss: Right.Megan Gill: — this moment that I was kind of out of the program and out of that show and out of that away from those other performers and teachers and peers and people that we looked up to and all of that, that I kind of was able to recognize something was wrong and that I cannot —Katelyn Stoss: Yeah.Megan Gill: — live like this and that this is actually not okay for my body.Katelyn Stoss: When you can separate and, like, get out of the game of it, I think that's what changes.Megan Gill:Yeah.Katelyn Stoss: And I think that's also probably, you know, when you're in middle school and high school, you're surrounded by people your age all day, every day at school. So it's in front of you. Like, all of the inequities, not even just weight, right, or whatever body image issue you might have. It might be that you don't feel like you have the right clothes, or you don't live on the right side of the tracks, if you will, or you're not athletic enough, you're not whatever enough. All of those things, I think, are heightened whenever you're in an environment where you feel like you're kind of playing a strategy in order to make it to the next step.And especially in a college program or something like that, you're doing anything you can to harness those few opportunities you get to perform because those are going to be A) your resume builder, B) your experience. And if you don't get cast in a show, then you're not getting your experience and you're not getting your resume. So then once you graduate, you don't have much to show for the last four years, or however long it took you. And then you're going into the world with, what —Megan Gill: Oh, my god, yeah.Katelyn Stoss: — if you're trying to pursue performing? And so, you're willing to do things that you wouldn't do after the fact, right? Because after the fact you control, “What auditions do I want to go to? What projects do I want to be a part of?” You have more agency in it. Whereas when you're a part of a program, you're like, “Okay, we do X amount of shows a year. So I need to try to make one of them. And we do this many dance pieces a year,” or whatever. Whatever your course may be, you know, that it's limited. And so, you have to play the game. And if that game is, “I'm going to do everything I can to manipulate my body to look the way that my professors want it to look so that I get cast in a role, then I'm going to do it.”Megan Gill: Yeah, I’m just, like, ugh, feeling all of the things over here because it's really — when you lay it out like that, that's exactly what's happening, and it's just really fucking sad.Katelyn Stoss: It is.Megan Gill: And my big question is how the hell do we change those systems? It's very systemic in the fact that —Katelyn Stoss: It’s so systemic.Megan Gill: — the hierarchy is telling you that you need to have this type of body and weigh X amount in some programs, I know. I don't know if that was as strong in our program.Katelyn Stoss: Thank God.Megan Gill: But when someone's telling you your body needs to look a certain way, you know in your brain, “Well, I need to lose weight.”Katelyn Stoss: Right. Right. And you're paying money. That's the thing.Megan Gill: Ugh, yes!Katelyn Stoss: If you're paying money to be there and you know — I mean, I'll speak for myself, but I'm still a debt from my degree, right? I think the majority of us are. And when you know you are putting that much money in that many years of your life on the line, it just adds so much more.Now, if you are fortunate enough to have parents who foot the bill, then guess how much mental space you have free to not have to work several jobs while you're in school, to not have to stress as much. You can have a healthier mindset, and probably approach, even if you have physical body goals, because I'm not saying it's bad. It's not bad to say, you know, “I'd like to be at a healthier weight for me,” or “I'd like to feel better when I'm moving,” or “I'd like to be stronger at X, Y, and Z,” right?There's healthy goals for physical that aren't necessarily, like, physical appearance or whatever. There's healthy body goals, and then there's an unhealthy body of goals. And I think a lot of it depends on your personal situation and how desperate you are to reach it, if that makes sense.Megan Gill: Right. Yeah, absolutely.Katelyn Stoss: And you were talking about like our program didn't have a weigh-in, right. But we had lots of things said to us. I know you and I have a couple similar stories, but I sat in a meeting with a professor once where I was told I needed to decide, am I going to be a chorus girl or am I going to be the fat girl? So I literally was told I needed to either gain — what was it — gain 10 pounds or lose 20.Megan Gill: Mind you, we are 20 years old. Like…?Katelyn Stoss: Yeah. Yeah. Not, “Let me help you find roles that would be a great fit for you, for your voice, for your acting style, for your personality.”Megan Gill: Right. It was always about the body.Katelyn Stoss: No, no, no. “You need to decide, are you going to be Tracy Turnblad or are you going to be in 42nd street?” Like that's what it was.Megan Gill: Yes. That’s definitely what it was, and what's so okay about that is, then, we learned to equate that this whole art form is — I mean, yes, it is very much body work. That's what it is. We are literally using ourselves to tell stories and our voices to tell stories and our movement and all of this stuff. We're just taught over and over and over again that it's about how we look and that that's what all of this is riding on and that's what the focus is, and it's less about my voice and less about what roles I even want to play or where I see myself fitting in the industry after I graduate here.Katelyn Stoss: You can't even think about it.Megan Gill: And it becomes either I’m the character actor or I'm the chorus girl or I'm the ingenue.Katelyn Stoss: Bingo.Megan Gill: And guess what? You have to fit a bill for each one within our programKatelyn Stoss: Yeah, and then when they come out with whatever shows are coming up right in your program, then you're like, “Well, there's my one shot or I have no shots because they've already told me I don't fit that bill.” So you're already set up to, well, usually fail. Let's get real.Katelyn Stoss is a choreographer, a director, a creator, a performer, and a teacher. Growing up, the dance studio wasn't the place she found easy success, but rather the place she learned the most important lessons in life. With over two decades of training in Tap, Jazz, Ballet, Musical Theatre, Hip Hop, Contemporary, and Modern, she’s had the opportunity to teach ages 2 to 72.Katelyn believes that dance, akin to music, is both sound and silence. Dance is crucial to seamless and effective storytelling. It innately unifies us beyond the boundaries of language and culture. But most of all, dance is FUN! ...and should be enjoyed as often as possible.Website: www.katelynstoss.comEmail: [email protected]: @katelynstoss YouTube: www.youtube.com/@katelynstossA Broadway Body: Continued Conversations is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work in this realm, subscribe to the page!While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe