Developers Who Test

In this episode, Chris Harbert sits down with Jitendra Boddapati, a lead quality engineer with over 10 years of experience specializing in API testing, ETL, big data QA, and accessibility testing across healthcare, banking, and retail domains.Jitendra shares his journey from college graduate to leading complex ETL projects, including how he taught himself SQL under pressure to deliver a challenging data migration project. The conversation dives deep into the often-overlooked world of ETL (Extract, Transform, Load) testing—what it is, why it matters, and how it differs fundamentally from traditional UI testing.Key topics covered:Why ETL testing doesn't get the attention it deserves and how to change thatThe critical role of Source to Target Mapping documents for ETL testersReal-world production bugs: How a comma in a provider name caused data to shift into the wrong columnsData profiling techniques like pattern and frequency analysis to uncover hidden anomaliesUsing AI tools to generate SQL queries and automate data validationChris and Jitendra also explore how AI is transforming user interfaces and what that means for testers. When users interact with your product through Claude, ChatGPT, or Cursor instead of your website, who's responsible for testing that experience?The episode wraps up with practical advice for anyone looking to get started with ETL testing: understand your data scope, break pipelines into smaller chunks, and always start with clear requirements.Whether you're a seasoned data engineer or a developer curious about testing data pipelines, this episode offers valuable insights into a testing discipline that's becoming increasingly critical as organizations deal with ever-growing volumes of data.

In this episode, Chris Harbert sits down with Vitaly Sharovatov, a seasoned developer and engineering manager with over 22 years of experience. Vitaly serves as a developer advocate at Qase, a test case management platform, and has written extensively about AI, testing methodology, and the economics of software quality.The conversation tackles a question every quality advocate faces: how do you convince leadership to invest in testing? Vitaly shares practical frameworks for quantifying the business value of quality and making the case for prevention over firefighting.Key topics covered:Why developers implicitly do testing already—and why they should understand it deeplyA simpler approach: quantifying the costs of bad quality you're already paying (support calls, lost sales, maintenance overhead)The social dynamics of selling quality ideas—finding allies and helping managers "show off" cost savingsWhen to automate vs. when to test manually: understanding the economic inflection pointThe hidden costs of poor quality on team morale, burnout, and employee retentionVitaly shares real-world examples, including a dating app where automated tests passed but a critical button was hidden below the viewport, and an insurance company that staffed 300 people for quarters to work around a poorly tested API.The episode wraps up with a key insight: most quality problems have social roots within organizations. Success requires not just good testing practices, but the ability to win allies, understand incentives, and sell ideas to stakeholders who aren't always rational economic actors.Whether you're trying to justify a testing initiative to leadership, optimize your team's approach to quality, or simply understand the true cost of defects, this episode provides a practical economic lens for thinking about software testing.Find Vitaly at beyondquality.org, a non-commercial community focused on collaborative research into testing economics, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

In this episode of Developers Who Test, host Chris Harbert sits down with Angel Williams, Senior SDET at CHG Healthcare, one of the largest healthcare staffing companies in the US. Angel's journey into software quality is unlike any other—she started as a percussionist trying to make it on Broadway before discovering a knack for debugging deployment scripts during IT contract work.The conversation explores the unique personality traits that draw people to quality engineering. Chris shares his fascinating discovery that every member of one of his QA teams scored high on "restorative" in StrengthsFinder—the same trait that had Angel taking apart the family stereo as a kid just to understand how it worked.Angel provides insight into testing in healthcare, where privacy and security aren't just nice-to-haves—they're essential. She explains how protecting both provider and patient data shapes testing strategies at CHG, from scrubbing logs to ensuring sensitive information never travels over live wires.The discussion takes a deep dive into AI-assisted testing. Angel shares practical examples of using Claude Code with Playwright's MCP integration to build performance dashboards and analyze code for risks. She emphasizes that AI shines brightest not when writing tests, but when helping SDETs understand unfamiliar code, identify risks, and—perhaps most valuably—keep documentation up to date. "Every time I look at a PR with major changes, I ask AI if the README reflects the new code," she explains.Chris and Angel swap war stories about flaky tests, including Angel's mysterious 5 PM failures that turned out to be a timezone shift issue—exactly matching one of the patterns in Chris's "14 Reasons for Flaky Tests" presentation. They discuss infrastructure-related flakiness, load balancer issues, and the critical importance of running tests before merge rather than after.The episode wraps with a thought-provoking discussion about leveraging MCP servers not just for automation, but for asking questions about quality itself—combining data from Jira, test results, and documentation to get a complete picture of project health.Key Topics:The "restorative" personality trait and QA professionalsTesting in healthcare: privacy, security, and compliancePractical AI applications for SDETs Running tests before merge vs. afterMCP servers as a new layer for quality insights

Martijn Goossens is Director of Advisory Services at Cerios, a Dutch QA company with approximately 450 employees. Martijn has about 20 years of experience helping teams improve their quality and implement test automation. He is a regular speaker at developer and software quality conferences.In this episode, Chris talks with Martijn Goossens about developer experience, productivity metrics, and what actually drives team performance. Martijn shares insights from his recent conference talk at Hustef and breaks down the key frameworks teams use to measure their effectiveness.The conversation explores the DORA metrics (deployment frequency, lead time for changes, change failure rate, and mean time to recovery) and the SPACE framework (satisfaction/wellbeing, performance, adaptiveness/momentum, communication/collaboration, and efficiency/flow). Martijn explains why he prefers DORA for its practical, quantifiable nature, while SPACE tends to be more subjective and developer-focused.Key topics include:The Dutch testing community: Why the Netherlands has become a hub for software testing innovation and how strong community connections accelerate professional growthMeeting culture and productivity: The value of no-meeting days, the danger of "Swiss cheese calendars," and how to prepare teams for focused work timeHackathons and innovation: Different approaches to fostering creativity, from quarterly hackathons to dedicated innovation time, plus Chris's "hackcation" conceptIndividual vs. team metrics: Why metrics should be treated as sensors providing information rather than judgment tools, and the cautionary tale of the "Cobra problem" where rewarding the wrong behaviors leads to perverse outcomesThe flight level concept: How management can monitor high-level metrics and only drill down when signals indicate a problemMartijn emphasizes that metrics don't tell the whole story --- they help you know what questions to ask and who to ask them to. A developer with fewer commits might be the team's primary reviewer or architect, while someone with many commits might just be making small edits. Context matters.The episode wraps up with Martijn's experience speaking at Hustef in Hungary (held in a train museum complete with miniature train rides) and his upcoming keynote in Tokyo.

In this episode of Developers Who Test, we meet Ashish Ghosh, Quality Assurance Architect at ING Bank. Ashish shares his journey from manual testing to leading ING's Quality Center of Excellence, emphasizing the critical shift from tool-centric approaches to fostering analytical and customer-focused mindsets. From pivotal moments that transformed ING's approach to quality to the broader implications of poor-quality software—such as life-threatening incidents and massive financial losses— we discuss how organizations can rethink their strategies. We delve into the importance of leadership's role in prioritizing quality, the dangers of over-relying on automation without critical thinking, and practical steps businesses can take to build a "quality first" culture.

In this episode of the Developers Who Test podcast, we meet Dave Monk, a software tester at Apple, and learn about his journey into software testing, the importance of QA, and the challenges faced in the industry. The episode explores the courage required to build quality software, the need for consumers to demand better products, and the evolving role of testers in an AI-driven world. ⁠Dave Monk on LinkedIn ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Harbert on LinkedIn Sponsored by Testery

In this episode of the Developers Who Test podcast, Chris Harbert interviews Gabe Smith, a software quality assurance engineer at Teal Drones. They discuss Gabe's journey into quality assurance, the differences between developer and tester mindsets, and the unique challenges of testing physical devices like drones. Gabe shares insights on hardware failures, the importance of data analysis, and creative testing scenarios. The conversation also touches on the real-world consequences of poor quality and offers advice for aspiring SDETs looking to transition into the aviation sector. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Gabe Smith on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Evan Niedojadlo, an engineering manager and product operations at Peddle, about his journey from test engineering to site reliability engineering. They discuss the role of site reliability engineering, the differences between big and small companies in terms of site reliability engineering, and how to test infrastructure. They also explore the reasons for switching testing frameworks and the challenges of transitioning to new frameworks. In this conversation, Evan Niedojadlo, an engineering manager at Peddle, discusses the transition from test engineering to being an SRE. They also talk about infrastructure testing, migration, and testing at different stages of the pipeline. Evan shares insights into the challenges and benefits of migrating to new tools and frameworks, as well as the importance of enabling teams to contribute to testing. ⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Evan Niedojadlo on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Christine Fletcher shares her journey from being a nurse to becoming a developer and then an SDET. She talks about her burnout in nursing and her desire to do something she's passionate about. Christine started learning HTML and CSS to build a website and eventually went through a bootcamp to become a UI/UX developer. She later transitioned into a QA lead role, where she focuses on both manual and automation testing. Christine discusses the challenges of balancing automation and manual testing in a fast-paced environment. She also shares her interest in project management and consulting for the future. ⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Christine Fletcher on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Adam Sandman, CEO of Inflectra, discusses the importance of risk in business and software development. He explains that while revenue and expenses can be predicted and controlled, risk is often unexpected and disruptive. He emphasizes the need for businesses to understand and measure the impact and probability of risks and take measures to protect against them. Adam also highlights the role of software testers in managing risk within an organization, stating that their job is to explore and present the risks to decision-makers so they can make informed decisions. The conversation also touches on the challenges of assessing risk accurately and the potential future of regulated software development. The conversation explores risk-based testing and its role in prioritizing tests and managing risk in software development. It discusses how to identify and prioritize risks, map them to user stories and tests, and use risk scores to determine the most critical tests. The conversation also touches on the impact of observability and rollbacks on risk management, the influence of architecture on risk, and the importance of communication and collaboration between testers and developers. The pragmatic approach to risk and testing based on experience is highlighted. ⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Adam Sandman on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Interviews Lisa Crispin, co-author of Agile Testing: A Practical Guide for Testers and Agile Teams. Lisa advocates for a holistic testing approach and highlights the need for collaboration and diverse perspectives in testing. She also discusses the benefits of pair programming and ensemble programming in improving code quality and preventing bugs ⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Lisa Crispin's Website Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

Scott Moore, VP of Engineering at Decision Lens, discusses the evolution of testing and test automation, the benefits of using Cucumber, and the role of test automation in the development process. He shares his experience transitioning from manual testing to test automation and explains how Cucumber has improved the maintainability and readability of their tests. Scott also highlights the importance of testing beyond the UI and the role of test automation developers in the organization. He offers career advice for test automation professionals and encourages them to automate repetitive tasks and explore new technologies. ⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Scott Moore on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Rik Marselis, a thought leader in the software testing industry and principal quality consultant at Sogeti Labs. Rick shares his journey into software testing, starting with his experience testing COBOL programs and his involvement in testing for the Y2K bug. They discuss the importance of foresight in software quality and the challenges of balancing agile development and quality goals. Rick also explains the value of certifications in the industry and the need for standardized terminology. They conclude by discussing the benefits of DevOps and cross-functional teams in improving software quality. Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Rik Marselis on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Matt Watson, the founder and CEO of FullScale, about the role of test automation in startups. Matt shares his experience of running a successful company without a dedicated QA team and emphasizes the importance of testing based on the context and importance of the software being developed. They discuss the evolution of automated QA tools, advancements in browser automation, and the balance between unit tests, integration tests, and UI tests. Matt also highlights the need for both proactive and reactive testing, as well as the challenges of getting developers to prioritize testing and monitoring production. Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Matt Watson on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Ben Bischoff, a test automation engineer for Travago and the author of Writing API Tests with Karate. Ben shares his journey into test automation, starting as a developer and transitioning into test automation. He discusses the similarities between writing code for tests and writing code for applications, emphasizing the importance of testing the tests themselves. Ben also explains his approach to API testing, including exploring the API, using Karate for testing, and focusing on the most critical use cases. He highlights the challenges of testing third-party integrations, managing test data, and testing messaging queues and streaming data. Finally, Ben shares his experience writing a book on Karate and the support he received from his organization. Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Benjamin Bischoff on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

James Sansbury, Director of Product for Tugboat QA, shares his journey into the QA space and the challenges of implementing automated testing. He emphasizes the importance of a testing culture and the need to think about testing in the early phases of a project. He also discusses the best placement of automated testing in the pipeline and the importance of making engineering decisions based on the context of the project. The conversation discusses the benefits of using preview environments for manual testing in B2B software development. It highlights the higher stakes in B2B software and the importance of catching issues early to save costs. The practice of asynchronous manual testing in preview environments is recommended to improve quality and agility. The concept of a 'dumpster fire demo day' is introduced, emphasizing the negative impact of last-minute issues on releases. The conversation concludes by emphasizing the value of distributing QA and stakeholder sign-off throughout the development process ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ James Sansbury on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Natalia Petrovskaia, a QA engineering manager at Customer Times, about her journey into software testing and her transition into test management. Natalia shares her experience of finding fulfillment in influencing software quality and business decisions as a tester. She also discusses the importance of work-life balance and the need for rest even when you love your work. Natalia provides insights into becoming a test lead and emphasizes the value of being proactive and showing interest in the success of the project. The conversation also covers the trend of developers being involved in testing and the challenges of combining test automation with complex business solutions. Natalia shares her approach to testing complex systems with unknown requirements and the concept of shift left testing. The episode concludes with a discussion on involving testers in story grooming and the ideal team structure for successful software development projects. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Natalie Petrovskaia on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode of the Developers Who Test podcast, host Chris Harbert interviews James Walker, co-founder of Curiosity Software. They discuss various topics related to test automation, including test data management, test modeling, and the importance of collaboration between developers and business users. James emphasizes the need for realistic test data and the challenges of replicating production data. He also highlights the benefits of using executable specifications and the value of sales skills in the software development industry. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the integration of development and testing and the importance of prioritizing quality in software development. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ James Walker on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Igor Dorovskikh, founder and CEO of Engenious, about the challenges of mobile testing. Igor shares his career journey in mobile testing and highlights the importance of specialization in iOS and Android testing. He emphasizes the need for an analytics-driven approach to determine the testing approach and device segmentation. Igor also discusses the benefits of testathons and collaborative testing in improving the quality of mobile applications. He concludes by providing advice for developers looking to improve their mobile testing skills and convince their companies to invest in mobile testing. ⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Igor Dorovskikh on ⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠ Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

Anton Angelov, founder and CTO of Automate the Planet, shares his journey and insights on test automation and software development. He emphasizes the importance of passion and individuality in testing, as well as the overlapping skills between developers and testers. Anton also discusses the significance of mentorship and maximizing learning opportunities in early career stages. He provides advice on transitioning from manual testing to development and highlights the challenges and solutions in test automation. Lastly, Anton talks about the testing community in Bulgaria and his future plans and projects. ⁠⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠ Anton Angelov on ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠ Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, host Chris Harbert interviews Mark Farrell, a Senior QA Consultant at Deloitte, about his experience with test automation and his exploration of generative AI. They discuss how Mark got started in test automation and the impact of AI on jobs in the industry. Mark shares insights into his work with generative AI, including the challenges of prompt engineering and the use of different AI models. They also discuss the importance of evaluating AI solutions for test automation and the future of AI in the field ⁠⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠⁠ Mark Farrell on ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠ Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Andrew Knight, the Automation Panda, Principal Architect at Cycle Labs. They discuss the importance of testing in software development, different types of testing, test automation, and the challenges in testing. The conversation provides insights into the role of testing in ensuring software quality and the strategies for effective testing, as well as providing concrete advice on how to excel in your organization by growing the SDET role. ⁠Developers Who Test Podcast⁠⁠ Andrew Knight on ⁠LinkedIn⁠ Chris Harbert on ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠ Sponsored by ⁠⁠Testery

In this episode, Chris Harbert interviews Steve Upton, a principal QA consultant for ThoughtWorks, about his journey into software testing and his role as a QA consultant. They discuss the importance of shared responsibility for quality and the need for everyone in the team to participate in testing. Steve emphasizes the value of taking ownership and driving change, as well as the importance of experience and breadth of knowledge in the field. They also explore the role of metrics in measuring quality and the challenges of balancing metrics with user needs. The conversation concludes with advice for individuals looking to transition into consulting and the future of career paths in quality engineering. Developers Who Test Podcast⁠ Steve Upton on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on ⁠LinkedIn⁠ Sponsored by ⁠Testery

We interview Don Campbell, Partner at Founder Partners, formerly CEO at GatherUp to talk about quality at startups. Don shares his experiences as a founder, executive, and investor at numerous startups to provide insight on how to prioritize Quality at your small company and prepare for growth by encouraging a testing mindset within your team. Developers Who Test Podcast Don Campbell on LinkedIn Chris Harbert on LinkedIn Sponsored by Testery

We interview Adam England, CTO at Testery to talk about why developers need to test software in addition to writing it. Topics include: The financial case for developer testing, choosing the right level to test at, unit testing, e2e testing, and how to get started at your company.