Middle-Aged Mama Drama Podcast

EPISODE OVERVIEWIn this milestone 10th episode, host Shelley B. sits down with Rowan, a 43-year-old recreation and fitness professional and mom of two who had her first baby at 35 and her second at 38.Rowan shares her deeply intentional journey into motherhood — from growing up on an organic ranch, navigating fertility challenges with acupuncture, and choosing natural births, to managing the impossible demands of working full-time while breastfeeding and pumping.Now traveling the world with her children in a world schooling adventure, Rowan reflects on the hard-earned wisdom that comes with older motherhood and the values that guide her family today.KEY TOPICS•       Growing up on an organic ranch and a mother who modeled intentional parenting•       Waiting 18 years with her partner before having children — and why•       Fertility challenges and using acupuncture to conceive•       Natural birth: hypnobirthing, midwife, doula, birth center, and home birth•       Postpartum anxiety, breastfeeding/pumping while working full-time, and self-care•       Baby wearing as a postpartum tool and community builder•       Mom guilt — then (working) and now (traveling away from extended family)•       The benefits and challenges of becoming a mother later in life•       World schooling and transitioning away from a demanding careerEPISODE STATISTICS•       In 2023 in the United States, more women over 40 gave birth than teenagers•       1 in 5 women giving birth are now 35 and older•       Rowan pumped at work for 18 months with her first child and approximately 20 months with her second — both while working full-timeEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 – 00:02:00]  Welcome & IntroductionShelley celebrates the podcast's 10th episode milestone and introduces Rowan, a 43-year-old fitness and recreation professional currently traveling the world with her children.The episode will focus on Rowan's experience as a middle-aged mom, with a second episode planned to cover her world schooling adventure. Shelley asks Rowan to share her background and the messages she received about motherhood growing up.[00:02:00 – 00:06:00]  Growing Up on an Organic RanchRowan describes a rich childhood on an organic cattle ranch in southern Colorado, living in an earthship-style Adobe home surrounded by animals and open space. Her mother — dedicated, intentional, and ahead of her time with practices like breastfeeding and natural birth — was a powerful model of motherhood.Her mom also intentionally built a community of like-aged moms and children, creating a tribe that celebrated milestones and supported each other — a value Rowan carries forward today.[00:06:00 – 00:12:00]  Traditional Roles, Divorce, and a Shifting WorldviewRowan reflects on her parents' traditional roles — her father the provider, her mother managing the household, animals, and eventually her own career — and how her parents' divorce at age 13 shifted her perspective.For years, she was adamant she didn't want to get married or have children. Meeting her partner at 17 and being together for 26 years (and counting), Rowan credits his patience and their shared growth for her eventual readiness for family life.[00:12:00 – 00:17:00]  A Very Intentional Path to PregnancyRowan describes a long and deliberate path to parenthood: marrying at year 11, living in Chile to teach English, then beginning to try to conceive — only to face fertility challenges.After ruling out medical issues, she turned to an intensive acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine protocol at Intersectional Fertility. Within three months, she was pregnant.She emphasizes how the process educated her about her own body and cycle in ways she wishes she'd known in her twenties.[00:17:00 – 00:22:00]  Natural Birth: Hypnobirthing, Midwife & Birth CenterRowan chose a birth center with a midwife and doula for her first birth, completing a six-week hypnobirthing course as preparation.Her first birth was long — nearly 24 hours of labor and 4.5 hours of pushing — followed by significant bleeding. Despite the challenges, she felt empowered and supported.She also followed the Spinning Babies protocol for her second pregnancy, a series of researched stretches and exercises to prepare the body for birth, which she credits for a significantly shorter pushing phase.[00:24:00 – 00:26:00]  Miscarriage and a Home Birth in 2020Between her two children, Rowan experienced a traumatic miscarriage. When she became pregnant again, her midwife had transitioned to home births only — and with COVID restrictions in full effect, birthing at home felt like the right and safest choice.Surrounded by her mother, father, stepfather, and partner, Rowan gave birth in a birth tub and spent four days recovering peacefully at home, calling it a deeply empowering experience after the loss she'd endured.[00:28:00 – 00:33:00]  Postpartum, Working Full-Time & Self-CareRowan got her dream job the same week she found out she was pregnant, setting up an incredibly intense first year of motherhood.Returning to work at 12 weeks, she pumped three times daily for 18 months while managing a high-demand leadership role. She navigated this with a supportive partner who took Fridays off for childcare, a mother who helped several days a week, consistent acupuncture, movement (including the MuTu System for core and pelvic floor recovery), lactation support, and regular therapy starting when her first was eight months old.[00:33:00 – 00:38:00]  Postpartum Anxiety & the Impossible StandardRowan describes experiencing postpartum anxiety more than depression, a relentless drive to control every detail while caring for her baby, managing her team, and supporting aging parents simultaneously.She and Shelley discuss the impossible standard placed on working mothers: expected to perform at the highest levels professionally while remaining fully present, emotionally available, and on top of every aspect of child-rearing — with little systemic support. Rowan describes working until her baby woke to feed, surviving on two-hour sleep stretches.[00:38:00 – 00:42:00]  Mom Guilt — Then and NowRowan reflects on two distinct chapters of mom guilt: the heartbreak of dropping her children at daycare while working, and now the guilt of being far from grandparents and extended family while world schooling.Shelley connects this to Rowan's core values — togetherness, community, tribe — and introduces the framework that this type of guilt (of what we’re not doing) often signals a violated value.Rather than eliminating guilt, Shelley encourages naming it and using it as information.Rowan shares that the presence is worth it: she is now fully present with her kids every day. [00:44:00 – 00:48:00]  Baby Wearing: A Community and Postpartum ToolRowan introduces baby wearing as a powerful but underutilized postpartum tool that helped her bond with her second child while still functioning day-to-day.She became so passionate about it that she joined Mile High Baby Wearing (mihibw.org), became president, ran monthly meetups, and hosted a carrier library for new and expecting parents. She explains the many carrier types — wraps, ring slings, soft-structured carriers — and notes she still wears her 4-year-old for hiking and moments of dysregulation. She also shared milk through the peer-to-peer group HM4HB Colorado.[00:48:00 – 00:50:00]  The Gift of Older Motherhood & Looking AheadRowan closes with gratitude for the life experience and wisdom she brought to motherhood at 35, noting she needed those years to become the parent she wanted to be.Shelley echoes this, acknowledging both the gifts and the unique pressures of being an older mom — including worrying about being around long enough.They tease the upcoming world schooling episode and close with the community reminder: 'You belong here exactly as you are.'THE OLDER MOM EXPERIENCE: CHALLENGES & GIFTSWhat Makes It Harder:•       Sleep deprivation and physical recovery hit harder after 35•       Reaching peak career ambitions at the same time as peak parenting demands•       Worrying about longevity — being present for grandchildren, milestones, aging•       Fewer peers in the same life stage; feeling out of step socially•       Sandwich generation pressure: simultaneously caring for children and aging parentsWhat Makes It Better:•       Maturity, self-awareness, and emotional regulation developed over decades•       Clearer values and intentionality about the kind of parent you want to be•       Established partnerships and support systems before bringing children into the world•       Financial stability and career foundation that provide more options•       Hard-won perspective that 'the sun will still rise' even if things don't go perfectlyGuilt as Information:Shelley and Rowan return to a key theme: mom guilt isn't a moral failing. It's data.When you feel this type of guilt, ask what value is being violated — connection? presence? community? — and let that information guide small, meaningful shifts rather than fuel shame.KEY QUOTES"I needed that maturity to happen. I don't know that I would have the patience and the empathy — and the true understanding that the world doesn't revolve around me — if I would've gotten pregnant before then." — Rowan "Women can have it all, just not at the same time. You don't have to do this all at once — you can do this now, and know that the other thing you've been working for will come back." — Rowan (quoting a mentor) "Guilt is just information. When we can understand where it comes from, it can be really helpful to just name it. It doesn't go away, but it changes our relationship with it." — Shelley "I'm thankful for the knowledge and wisdom I had going into motherhood as an older mom. I needed all of those life lessons to be able to be the mom that I want to be." — RowanPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:•       If you're facing fertility challenges, explore acupuncture alongside Western medicine — it may support your body and teach you about your cycle in invaluable ways •       Research the Spinning Babies protocol during pregnancy to help your body prepare for birth — it's science-based and widely underutilized •       Baby wearing is not just sweet — it's a functional postpartum survival tool that keeps your baby close while freeing your hands and body •       Treat therapy and movement as non-negotiables, not luxuries — especially in the first year when depletion runs deepest •       Working with a lactation consultant can make a meaningful difference in your breastfeeding journey — support is out there•       This type of guilt (what we’re not doing) signals a violated value. Name the value, and let it guide small shifts rather than fuel shameFor Partners:•       Patience is an act of love — Rowan's husband waited until she was ready, and it transformed their family •       Stepping up on a specific, consistent task (like cooking or Friday childcare) can make an enormous difference to a depleted nursing, working mother •       Your partner may not have postpartum depression — but postpartum anxiety looks like perfectionism, control, and relentless striving. It deserves just as much supportFor Everyone:•       Intentional community-building matters at every age — Rowan's mother did it in the 1980s; it's still one of the most protective things a parent can do •       Learning about your body and fertility in your twenties — not just when you're trying to conceive — is powerful knowledge every woman deserves •       You don't have to sacrifice one meaningful thing for another forever. Seasons change, and trust that what matters will return when the time is rightRESOURCES MENTIONEDFertility:•       Intersectional Fertility — Rowan's acupuncturist, specializing in fertility support with acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine: https://www.intersectionalfertility.com/ •       Spinning Babies Protocol — researched stretches and exercises to prepare the body for birth: spinningbabies.com •       Fertility book mentioned:Taking Charge of Your Fertility: The Definitive Guide to Natural Birth Control, Pregnancy Achievement, and Reproductive Health, Toni Weschler •       HypnoBirthing: the six-week course Rowan completed with her doula to prepare for natural birthThe Mongan Method, 4th Edition: A Natural Approach to Safer, Easier, More Comfortable BirthingMarie F Mongam M.ED  •       Moxibustion — an acupuncture technique mentioned by Shelley for turning a breech baby   Postpartum Recovery & Core:•       MuTu System — Rowan's go-to pelvic floor and core program for postpartum recovery: https://mutusystem.com/en-us/Pelvic Floor Physical Therapy:•       Integral Physical Therapy (Littleton, CO): https://www.integralphysicaltherapy.org/littleton •       Popper Physical Therapy: https://popperpt.com/Lactation Support:•       The Lactation Network — search for lactation consultants and get connected with support in your area: https://lactationnetwork.com/Baby Wearing:•       Mile High Baby Wearing — the nonprofit organization Rowan served as president; offers education, meetups, and a carrier lending library: https://mihibw.org/Milk Sharing:•       HM4HB Colorado — peer-to-peer human milk sharing group that Rowan administered: https://www.facebook.com/HM4HBColorado/Upcoming:•       Sometime in the near future, Part 2 — Rowan returns to discuss her world schooling adventure with her childrenCALL TO ACTION•       Share this episode with any mom navigating fertility, natural birth, postpartum, or the tension between career and caregiving •       Try naming your guilt this week — ask what value it's pointing to, and let that be your guide •       Subscribe and leave a review to help more middle-aged mamas find this community •       Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 9: Nobody Warned Me It Could All Collapse at OnceHow Christel Rebuilt After Divorce as a Middle-Aged MomEPISODE OVERVIEWIn this candid and heartfelt episode, host Shelley sits down with Christel, a 44-year-old mom of two elementary-school-aged children, to talk about the very real challenges of navigating divorce, rebuilding, and finding love again — all while parenting in midlife.Christel shares her journey from a deeply isolating season of simultaneous divorce, business dissolution, and infant care, through years of single parenting, to arriving at a place of stability, happiness, and remarriage.This episode is a powerful reminder that no matter how hard it gets, resilience is possible — and you are not alone.KEY TOPICS• Being a 44-year-old mom with elementary-school-aged children• Differences between pregnancies at 33 and 38, including mental health support and medication• Isolation as a middle-aged mom when friends are 10 years younger• Navigating divorce, business sale, and infant care simultaneously• Single parenting for 4+ years and the importance of self-care• EFT (tapping) as a mental health tool for middle-aged moms• Finding stability, remarriage, and rebuilding after major life upheaval• The perspective and wisdom that comes with older parenthood• Modeling healthy habits — gratitude, self-regulation, and self-care — for kidsEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 - 00:02:30] Being 44 with Young Kids — and Friends a Decade YoungerShelley introduces Christel as a 44-year-old mom of a 6-year-old son and 10-year-old daughter. Christel shares that most of her close friends are about 10 years younger, yet their children are the same ages — creating a dynamic where their lives look similar on the surface but are very different underneath. Christel reflects that she brings more career stability and life groundedness to motherhood than her younger peers, who are still finding their footing.[00:03:00 - 00:06:00] Two Pregnancies, Two Very Different ExperiencesChristel had her first child at 33 and her second at 38, passed the ‘geriatric pregnancy’ threshold. She describes her first pregnancy as active and relatively easy; her second was physically exhausting, complicated by a two-vessel umbilical cord requiring extra monitoring and more frequent doctor visits. Christel also candidly discusses the emotional and hormonal intensity of her second pregnancy, including accepting a Zoloft prescription to manage anxiety and depression when she was ‘crying every single day.’[00:06:00 - 00:09:00] Isolation Without a Support SystemChristel reflects on how isolating it was to go through an intense second pregnancy with a husband who didn’t understand her emotional experience, and younger friends who couldn’t relate. As a hairdresser, she could chat with clients but couldn’t fully open up. Shelley connects this to her own reason for starting Middle-Aged Mama Drama — the profound experience of feeling alone even while surrounded by people, because no one shared the same life stage.[00:09:00 - 00:12:00] Divorce, Business Sale, and Infant Care — All at OnceChristel describes one of the most overwhelming periods of her life: going through a divorce and selling her business while her son was just six months old. She felt she was failing at everything simultaneously — marriage, career, and approaching 40 — at a time when she felt she ‘should have it all together.’ Self-judgment was intense, compounded by the fact that no one around her understood what she was navigating.[00:13:00 - 00:15:00] The Mental Health Gap for Middle-Aged WomenShelley raises a critical observation: there’s a notable lack of therapists and mental health professionals who specialize in middle age — especially for women navigating simultaneous hormonal changes, career shifts, relationship upheaval, and parenting. Christel tried several therapists during this period but never connected with anyone who truly understood her experience. Both women agree this gap is a real and pressing problem.[00:16:00 - 00:18:00] The Generational Complexity of Middle-Aged ParentingShelley and Christel explore the generational dynamics at play: Christel is Gen X/Millennial, her kids are Gen Alpha, and the gap between their life experiences and worldviews is significant. Christel notes she never really bonded with younger parents at school events — the life-stage difference was too wide to bridge into true friendship. The energy difference also stands out; younger parents seem to have more bandwidth for extracurricular activities.[00:18:00 - 00:21:00] EFT Tapping and Finding Support That FitsChristel and Shelley reflect on how they met through EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) tapping sessions. Christel speaks warmly about how impactful those sessions were — she still uses phrases and affirmations from their work together. Shelley shares that the connection worked partly because of their shared experience as middle-aged moms; being truly understood made the difference in the healing relationship.[00:21:00 - 00:23:00] Remarriage, Part-Time Custody, and RebuildingChristel shares remarried in July, has a positive co-parenting relationship with her ex-husband, has relaunched her own business (solo this time), and feels genuinely stable and happy. She and Shelley reflect on the remarkable transformation that can happen in just five years — from crisis to clarity. Christel’s journey is offered as a message of hope to listeners who may be in the thick of their hardest season.[00:23:00 - 00:26:00] Self-Care as a Non-Negotiable for Middle-Aged Single MomsWhen asked about surviving four-plus years of single parenting while running a business, Christel is clear: self-care isn’t optional. During the pandemic she bought a Peloton and carved out 30-minute workouts during naptime. She emphasizes that even a little movement — a 10-minute walk — makes a meaningful difference. When you’re depleted, you have nothing to give. Filling your own cup is what makes you a better mom, employee, and friend.[00:26:00 - 00:29:00] The Gift of Perspective — and Modeling It for Our KidsThe episode closes on an affirming note: both women agree that older parenthood comes with the gift of hard-won perspective. You stop worrying about things that don’t matter. You become more intentional with your time. And the coping tools you’ve developed — gratitude rituals, tapping, walking, taking a breath — become the very things you model for your kids. Giving children these skills early is one of the most meaningful advantages of having an older, wiser parent.NAVIGATING MAJOR LIFE UPHEAVAL AS A MIDDLE-AGED MOMThe Compounding Effect:• Divorce, business closure, and infant care often collide in midlife — when women feel they ‘should’ have it figured out• The self-judgment at 40 can be crushing: expectations of stability meet unexpected chaos• Younger friends and family members often cannot provide meaningful support because they aren’t in the same life phase• Middle-aged women face simultaneous hormonal changes, identity shifts, and parenting demands with little targeted supportWhat Rebuilding Looks Like:• It’s rarely linear — and it takes time (often years, not months)• Seeking any mental health support, even imperfect connections, is worthwhile• Tools like EFT tapping can be transformative when combined with shared understanding• Small consistent actions (short workouts, walks, gratitude practices) accumulate into real resilience• Connection with others who share your experience is not a luxury — it’s essentialKEY QUOTES“When your cup is full and you’re doing a little self-care, that energizes you to be a better mom and a better employee and a better friend.” — Christel“I just didn’t have anybody to talk to. It was super isolating.” — Christel“I want to be a support system to women who are middle-aged. I’ve been brewing this in my head for years.” — Shelley“You start to get perspective when you’re older. You just don’t see it until then — and you also learn to notice what is really important.” — ChristelPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:• You are not failing if everything feels hard simultaneously — sometimes life just stacks that way. Give yourself grace.• Self-care in short doses (a 10-minute walk, a 30-minute workout) is not indulgent — it’s what keeps you functioning for your kids.• Seek out community with other middle-aged moms. The understanding of someone in the same life stage is irreplaceable.• The perspective and patience you’ve earned through your life experience is a genuine advantage your children benefit from every day.For Single Moms and Divorced Mothers:• Prioritize one small act of self-care daily — even during the hardest seasons. It makes a measurable difference.• It’s okay if the friends and family around you don’t fully understand. Find the people — or communities — who do.• Rebuilding takes time. Five years from now may look radically different than today. Hold onto that.• A co-parenting relationship doesn’t have to be adversarial — even after a difficult divorce, a respectful dynamic is possible.For Everyone:• The mental health system has a gap for middle-aged adults. If you haven’t connected with the right therapist yet, keep looking — the fit matters.• What you model for your children — gratitude, self-regulation, resilience — becomes the toolkit they carry into their own lives.• Perspective is a gift that comes with age. Most of what you used to worry about won’t matter in five years.RESOURCES MENTIONEDModalities Discussed:• EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) / Tapping — used by Christel with host Shelley for emotional processing and mindset work• Zoloft (sertraline) — discussed as a supportive option for prenatal anxiety and depression at advanced maternal age• Peloton — mentioned as a pandemic-era tool for accessible at-home exercise for single momsRelated Episodes:• Episode with Brooke — interview with a mom who had children at ages 24 and 38• Mom Guilt episode with Jeni — exploring how cultural expectations compound mom guiltCALL TO ACTION• Share this episode with a middle-aged mom who is going through a hard season — let her know she is not alone• If you or someone you know has a story to share, reach out: [email protected]• Subscribe and leave a review to help more middle-aged mamas find this community• Follow Middle-Aged Mama Drama for upcoming episodes, including interviews with teenagers of older parentsRemember: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

EPISODE OVERVIEWShelley speaks with her neighbor Brooke, a 44-year-old mother who had children at different life stages, one at age 23 and another at age 38.The conversation explores how maturity, life circumstances, and generational shifts shape the parenting experience, offering insights into what changes (and what stays the same) when you become a mother across two decades.KEY TOPICS:• Physical experiences of pregnancy at different ages• The “geriatric pregnancy” label and medical treatment differences• Financial stability and emotional readiness across life stages• Community support systems at different ages• Parenting with maturity and wisdom versus youthful energy• Perimenopause symptoms while raising young children• Generational differences in raising children (technology and values)EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 - 00:03:00] Introduction and Pregnancy ExperiencesShelley introduces Brooke, who became a mother at 23 and again at 38. Brooke shares that despite being labeled a “geriatric pregnancy” at 38, she was actually at her healthiest then compared to her first pregnancy. The medical community did extra genetic testing and monitoring, but treated her well overall because she remained healthy throughout.[00:03:00 - 00:07:00] Life Circumstances and PlanningThe conversation explores the stark differences between Brooke’s pregnancies. At 23, she had only been dating her daughter’s father for four months when she became unexpectedly pregnant—not financially stable or emotionally prepared, but something told her to keep the baby. At 38, she and her husband had been married four years and tried to conceive the entire time, nearly giving up just before it finally happened.[00:07:00 - 00:09:00] Support Systems Across the YearsBrooke reflects on her support networks at different ages. At 23, despite having friends, she relied heavily on her ex-partner’s mother, who became like a mother to her after losing her own mom just two months into her pregnancy. This woman helped with appointments, bought first maternity clothes, and remained close even after the relationship ended. At 38, she had her husband and a community of friends who brought food and offered childcare support.[00:09:00 - 00:13:00] Energy, Patience, and PerimenopauseBoth hosts discuss the trade-offs of older motherhood. Brooke admits she’s “a little slower these days” with lower energy levels, but maintains a young spirit and doesn’t feel old. However, she reveals experiencing perimenopause symptoms for about four years—including mood swings, sleep issues, heightened anxiety, more painful periods, and a shorter temper. Despite medical tests showing “normal” hormone levels, she knows something has changed in her body.[00:13:00 - 00:16:00] Maturity and Wisdom in ParentingBrooke shares how being older has made her a wiser, more knowledgeable parent. At 23, she still felt like a child herself, but motherhood came instinctively. Now at 44, she feels “a lot smarter” and approaches parenting with more intention, though she raised both daughters with similar core values. She emphasizes that while the fundamental approach remains consistent, she has more tools and understanding to apply now.[00:16:00 - 00:20:00] Technology and Generational ChallengesThe conversation addresses how raising a child in a technology-saturated world differs dramatically from 20 years ago. Brooke’s oldest grew up playing outside and doing “normal kid things” without constant screen access, while her youngest knows iPads and asks to use devices. Shelley shares a concerning story about her oldest daughter being contacted by a bot with explicit messages on a Kindle at age 12-13, highlighting the vigilance required in today’s digital landscape.[00:20:00 - 00:23:00] Values Across Generations and Final AdviceShelley reflects on the challenge of honoring values from her own upbringing while adapting to her children’s generational reality, noting that parents often failed to consider the cultural context their children grew up in. Both hosts emphasize the importance of curiosity over judgment. Brooke’s advice for women considering later motherhood is simple: don’t be nervous, you’re not “one foot in the grave,” and you have so much more to offer with maturity and life experience.THE CONTRAST: MOTHERHOOD AT 23 VS. 38At Age 23:• Unplanned pregnancy after dating partner for only four months• Not financially stable or professionally established• Lost her mother two months into pregnancy• Relied heavily on partner’s mother for support• Scared to breastfeed, still felt like a child herself• Relationship ended before baby turned one• Daughter grew up without constant technology accessAt Age 38:• Married for four years, actively trying to conceive• Both partners employed with stable jobs• At peak physical health—healthiest she’d ever been• Strong community of friends offering support• More mature, knowledgeable, and intentional in approach• Navigating perimenopause symptoms while parenting• Parenting in a technology-saturated environment requiring constant vigilanceWhat Remained Constant:• Maternal instinct kicked in naturally both times• Core parenting values and approach stayed similar• Young spirit and sense of not feeling “old”• Relatively healthy, smooth pregnancies despite age differencePERIMENOPAUSE AND PARENTING: THE DOUBLE CHALLENGEBrooke’s experience highlights a reality many middle-aged mothers face: managing perimenopause symptoms while actively raising young children. Her symptoms have persisted for approximately four years and include:• Poor sleep quality at night• Heightened anxiety levels• Shorter temper and quicker annoyance• More painful menstrual cycles with increased PMS symptoms• General sense that “something’s not right” despite “normal” medical test resultsThis stands in stark contrast to younger mothers who aren’t simultaneously managing significant hormonal changes. Shelley emphasizes the need for more education and resources specifically for middle-aged mothers navigating perimenopause alongside parenting responsibilities, especially since these mothers may also be dealing with teenagers going through puberty.KEY QUOTES“They call it a geriatric pregnancy, right? Which is funny and I was laughing about it ‘cause I’m like, I feel really healthy. What do you mean geriatric? I think they call it advanced maternal age now. It was really funny.” — Brooke“At 23, I was still pretty much a child. I mean, you’re technically an adult, but you’re still a child... Now I’ve learned so much in 14 years after that. This one I feel is a lot easier and laid back. I’m like, okay, now I know how to teach her things differently.” — Brooke“I am a really big believer in knowledge is power. So empowering us to understand our bodies more... we are mothers that are going through [perimenopause] with young kids. It’s very different. And we’re still working. It’s different.” — Shelley“Don’t be nervous about it. I was nervous, but at the same time, I’m glad actually that I did it older. Sometimes it’s good to wait a little bit... You’re not one foot in the grave yet. You’re still young, you’re still good. And you have more to offer too.” — Brooke’s advice to women considering later motherhoodPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:• Trust your body knowledge—if you know something feels off (like perimenopause symptoms), advocate for yourself even when medical tests show “normal” results.• Recognize that maturity and wisdom are genuine gifts you bring to parenting—being “smarter” and more intentional can compensate for lower energy levels.• Accept that parenting in a technology-saturated world requires different vigilance than previous generations needed—monitor devices, understand apps, and stay informed about digital safety.• Don’t let the “geriatric pregnancy” label diminish your confidence—if you’re healthy and feel good, focus on that reality rather than the terminology.For Women Considering Later Motherhood:• Consider that financial stability, emotional maturity, and life experience can create a stronger foundation for parenting than youthful energy alone.• Understand that your physical health matters more than age—prioritize wellness, nutrition, and fitness to prepare for pregnancy and parenting.• Don’t let pressure to conceive create stress—Brooke and her husband nearly gave up trying after four years, and conception happened naturally once they released the pressure.• Build or strengthen your support network before becoming a parent—having community makes a significant difference regardless of age.For Healthcare Providers:• Frame extra testing and monitoring for older mothers positively rather than through a deficit lens—emphasize the benefits of additional care rather than focusing on age-related risks.• Take perimenopause symptoms seriously even when hormone levels test “normal”—women in their late 30s and early 40s who report changes deserve thorough evaluation and support.• Consider the unique challenges of perimenopause occurring simultaneously with active parenting of young children when discussing treatment and management options.For Everyone:• Practice curiosity over judgment—Shelley’s principle of “be curious, not judgmental” applies to understanding different parenting approaches across generations.• Recognize that each generation faces unique parenting challenges that previous generations didn’t navigate—technology safety, social media literacy, and online privacy are new frontiers.• Understand that motherhood at different life stages involves real trade-offs—there’s no universally “right” time to become a parent, and both younger and older mothers face distinct advantages and challenges.RESOURCES MENTIONEDMedical Terminology:• “Geriatric pregnancy” (older term) / “Advanced maternal age” (current term) – typically refers to pregnancy at age 35 or older• Genetic testing for older pregnancies• Perimenopause symptoms and hormone testingTopics for Future Episodes:• Perimenopause and menopause while parenting young children• Interviewing teenagers of older parents about their experiences• Technology safety and digital parenting in the modern ageCALL TO ACTION• Share this episode with women who have children at different life stages or are considering later motherhood• If you have expertise in perimenopause/menopause and middle-aged motherhood, contact the podcast to be interviewed• Subscribe and leave reviews to spread awareness about middle-aged motherhood experiences• Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

EPISODE OVERVIEWHosts Shelley and Jeni explore the complex emotions and societal pressures surrounding aging as middle-aged mothers.From concerns about being mistaken for grandmothers to the pressure of maintaining a youthful appearance, they discuss how Western culture treats aging women differently than men, the anti-aging industry’s influence, and their desire to model self-acceptance for their daughters while grappling with their own fears.KEY TOPICS:· Fear of being perceived as grandmothers rather than mothers· The relationship between gray hair, aging, and societal value· Distinctions in how aging is viewed between genders· Anti-aging industry pressures and marketing to women· Balancing self-acceptance with cultural beauty standards· Perimenopause and menopause while raising young children· Modeling healthy attitudes about aging for daughtersEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 - 00:03:00] The “Baby Number Two” Question and Age DisclosureJeni shares how people at work frequently ask about a second child without knowing she’s 45. When she discloses her age and mentions being “too old,” she’s often met with surprise and compliments about not looking her age. This fuels anxiety about maintaining a youthful appearance so her daughter won’t face questions like “is that your grandma?” The hosts acknowledge hearing these perspectives from teenagers in the previous episode.[00:03:00 - 00:07:00] What’s Wrong With Being a Grandma?When Shelley questions why being mistaken for a grandma is so distressing, Jeni honestly admits it’s because “grandmas are closer to death than moms.” The conversation explores whether it’s about societal roles and perceived value rather than actual grandmothers themselves. They discuss how in Western culture, unlike multi-generational households in other cultures, grandmothers aren’t seen as primary caregivers who do the daily work of raising children. The hosts realize they don’t want to be misrepresented in their actual role as mothers doing all the “sweat, blood and tears” work of parenting.[00:07:00 - 00:11:00] The Gray Hair QuestionThe hosts dive into why they color their hair. Shelley’s mother still colors her hair at 80, continuing the silent and boomer generation tradition. Jeni shares how she started coloring her hair after postpartum hair loss grew back gray, but also admits to feeling pressure at work when video lighting highlighted her gray temple. She acknowledges watching beautiful gray hair transformations on social media yet still feeling she’s “not ready” for gray hair. The hosts wonder if maintaining non-gray hair subconsciously represents having the energy to keep up with young children.[00:11:00 - 00:16:00] Distinguished Men vs. Desexualized WomenThe conversation highlights the stark double standard: Jeni’s husband gets complimented on how “distinguished” his gray hair makes him look, while women with gray hair are desexualized and associated with being less energetic or capable. They reference how actors like Matt Damon and The Rock continue making action films while aging, facing no pressure to maintain youthful appearances. Shelley recalls someone once asking if her daughter was her granddaughter, triggering an uncharacteristic feeling of rage. Jeni shares openly delighting when her daughter calls her “mommy” in public to establish her role to onlookers.[00:16:00 - 00:20:00] The Panic-Induced Skincare SplurgeJeni confesses to a moment of panic when examining her face in a magnifying mirror, leading to a frantic trip to a department store where she spent a ridiculous amount on anti-aging skincare products. She admits nothing has changed except her skin feels more hydrated. The hosts discuss how the entire anti-aging industry markets almost exclusively to women, with stores like Ulta and Sephora built around these products. Meanwhile, men like Jeni’s husband can enjoy the benefits without facing any societal pressure to use them. They recognize this pressure represents fear of being rejected or ostracized from society when they’re no longer deemed “useful.”[00:20:00 - 00:25:00] Fertility, Value, and The Handmaid’s TaleThe conversation touches on how youth and fertility are equated with a woman’s value in Western society. Jeni shares her painful struggle with infertility and feeling “less than” because she couldn’t do “the one thing my body was supposed to be able to do.” They discuss how men can reproduce essentially forever while women face strict biological timelines, reinforcing gendered ideas about purpose and value. Shelley notes that during perimenopause and menopause, women experience concrete physical changes like brain fog, joint pain, sleep issues, and energy changes, yet are often dismissed or not taken seriously while still raising young children.[00:25:00 - 00:30:00] Belts, Periods, and Staying CurrentJeni shares a formative memory of getting her period at her grandmother’s house around age 11-12. When her grandmother asked a store clerk for “belts” (the old method of attaching pads before adhesive), Jeni was mortified and confused. Years later, she worries about becoming similarly out of touch with her daughter’s generation. The hosts compare this to how their mothers never discussed menstruation, while they’re committed to open conversations about periods, hormone replacement therapy, and menopause without shame. They reject the “hush hush” approach and want to normalize these conversations for their daughters.[00:30:00 - 00:33:00] The Cognitive Dissonance of “Do as I Say, Not as I Do”Shelley articulates the central tension: they’re talking about wanting their daughters to value themselves beyond appearance while simultaneously fearing judgment about their own gray hair and wrinkles. There’s awareness of the real consequences including discrimination in hiring, healthcare inequality, and negative social interactions for older women. Jeni admits “I refuse to do as I say, not as I do” and wonders if she needs to stop dyeing her hair so her daughter knows it’s okay. The hosts acknowledge it’s okay to hold conflicting feelings and recognize they’ve internalized cultural standards while wanting something different for their daughters.[00:33:00 - 00:36:00] Boy Moms, Community, and No RegretsThe hosts realize all their close middle-aged mom friends have daughters, prompting curiosity about whether boy moms internalize these aging concerns differently. They invite listeners to share their perspectives. Despite all the pressures and fears discussed, both hosts enthusiastically agree they wouldn’t do anything differently and love being middle-aged moms. They appreciate the shared experiences of their community and the validation of knowing they’re not alone in these feelings.THE AGING DOUBLE STANDARDFor Women:· Gray hair signals being “old,” lacking energy, or nearing death· Anti-aging industry built entirely around female consumers· Desexualized and devalued as they age· Face discrimination in hiring and healthcare· Expected to maintain youthful appearance while raising young children· Dismissed when experiencing perimenopause/menopause symptoms· Value tied to fertility and reproductive capacityFor Men:· Gray hair makes them look “distinguished” and “sexy”· No societal pressure to use anti-aging products· Continue thriving in careers and romantic roles while aging· Can reproduce throughout most of their lifespan· Not judged for having children at older agesThe Stakes:Women internalize these cultural messages even while wanting to model body acceptance for their daughters, creating painful cognitive dissonance between their values and their fears.THE GRANDMOTHER QUESTIONWhy Being Mistaken for Grandma Feels Threatening:· Associated with being closer to death in the lifecycle· Perceived as less important or valuable than mothers in Western culture· Grandmother role doesn’t include daily caregiving in modern families· Fears losing recognition for the actual work of motherhood· Concern about having less time with childrenCultural Context:Unlike multi-generational households in other cultures where grandmothers are central caregivers, Western society positions grandmothers as peripheral figures who visit occasionally rather than shape children’s daily lives and values.KEY QUOTES“Truthfully, because grandmas are closer to death than moms... that’s probably the root of my fear. I want to trick my body and hack my body into living as long as I can because I want as many moments with my daughter as I can have.” -- Jeni“Is it because if I’m the grandma, I’m not as valuable to her? Grandmas don’t see you that often and moms, they shape you and they raise you and they keep your values. So when you were just talking, I’m wondering if it’s for us, we don’t wanna be seen as the grandma because we’re not as important to our children and we are doing all the work.” -- Shelley“No one has ever said those words to a woman with gray hair that I know of. ‘Oh, you look so distinguished.’ Men look distinguished and sexy and romantic, and women actually are the opposite. We are desexualized.” -- Jeni“I refuse to do as I say, not as I do. I refuse to parent that way. I guess I’m gonna stop dyeing my hair. I don’t want my daughter to feel like she has to do that.” -- JeniPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:· Recognize that holding conflicting feelings about aging is normal and okay· Understand the real societal consequences (hiring discrimination, healthcare inequality) aren’t just fears· Question which beauty standards you’re following for yourself vs. for external approval· Consider what messages your choices send to your daughters about aging and value· Connect with other middle-aged mothers to combat isolation and normalize these struggles· Advocate for yourself during perimenopause/menopause rather than suffering silentlyFor Partners and Support Systems:· Recognize the unique double standards aging women face compared to aging men· Understand pressures around appearance aren’t vanity but responses to real discrimination· Support open conversations about menopause and hormone replacement therapy· Be aware that middle-aged mothers may be navigating perimenopause while raising young children· Acknowledge the cognitive dissonance between wanting self-acceptance and fearing societal rejectionFor Everyone:· Question why we value youth and fertility as measures of women’s worth· Challenge the assumption that gray hair or wrinkles equal less energy or capability· Examine how the anti-aging industry profits from women’s fears· Consider how multi-generational households in other cultures view aging differently· Normalize conversations about periods, menopause, and aging without shame· Recognize that being mistaken for the wrong generation is about role misidentification, not insultRESOURCES MENTIONEDPrevious Episodes Referenced:· Episode 6: Teen perspectives on having older parents· Episode 5: Sherry’s discussion of multi-generational parenting and cultural support systemsTopics for Future Episodes:· Boy moms’ perspectives on aging concerns· Infertility and middle-aged motherhoodCALL TO ACTION· Share this episode with middle-aged mothers struggling with aging anxieties· Email your perspective if you’re a boy mom: do these concerns resonate differently?· Subscribe and leave reviews to expand the conversation about aging and motherhood· Reach out if you’d like to be interviewed about your experience as a middle-aged mom· Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

EPISODE OVERVIEWIn this special episode, Shelley and Jeni interview teenagers Liv (16) and M (17), who share their candid experiences growing up with older parents. The conversation covers everything from early awareness of parental age differences to navigating social dynamics, gaining life wisdom, and grappling with heavier realities like aging and loss.KEY TOPICS:● Early awareness of having older parents● Social dynamics and cultural differences in school settings● Benefits of parental wisdom and life experience● Technology and generational gaps● Learning independence and life skills● Confronting aging, health challenges, and lossEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:01:00 - 00:04:00] First RealizationsBoth teens share their earliest memories of realizing their parents were older than their peers’ parents. M recalls being mistaken for her grandfather’s grandchild in third grade, while Liv remembers her parents being unfamiliar with trending cultural phenomena like Starbucks that other kids’ parents embraced.[00:04:00 - 00:07:00] Middle School Social DynamicsThe girls discuss how attending an all-girls middle school created a more level playing field, yet they noticed differences in how their parents handled situations compared to younger parents. They found their parents offered more levelheaded advice and wisdom, becoming trusted confidants when classmates struggled to connect with their own parents.[00:07:00 - 00:11:00] The Embarrassing (and Endearing) MomentsM shares humorous stories about her father’s technology struggles and public dancing, while Liv reflects on her grandfather’s disability and technology challenges. Both teens emphasize that these moments weren’t truly embarrassing—they became defining characteristics they learned to embrace and even appreciate.[00:11:00 - 00:15:00] Household Differences and Multi-Generational DynamicsLiv describes being raised simultaneously by her mother and grandparents, creating a unique household dynamic where older generations set calmer, more peaceful rhythms. M notes technology lessons she regularly provides her parents, highlighting the reverse mentorship dynamic that characterizes many older parent households.[00:15:00 - 00:20:00] The Wisdom AdvantageBoth teens credit their parents’ age and experience with teaching them to see the bigger picture, avoid rushing to judgment, and develop emotional intelligence. M’s mother taught her practical life skills like insurance, apartment hunting, and car maintenance, while Liv’s mother balanced traditional values with contemporary parenting research, creating a comprehensive developmental approach.[00:20:00 - 00:23:00] Neurodiversity and UnderstandingM shares how both she and her father have ADHD and dyslexia, creating a unique generational bridge. She reflects on how her father never received the accommodations and support she benefits from today, developing deep empathy for his struggles while appreciating the progress in understanding neurodivergence.[00:23:00 - 00:25:00] Parental Anxieties About Being OlderThe host shares her fears about being an older mother, worried her daughter will resent having older parents. Both teens reassure her, explaining they wouldn’t be who they are without older parents and view their experiences as fundamentally positive, marked by deeper wisdom, better communication, and stronger family bonds.[00:25:00 - 00:28:00] Confronting Aging and LossThe conversation takes a poignant turn as M discusses her father’s recent health challenges at 65, while Liv shares the profound loss of her grandfather at age 13. Liv describes grieving a parent figure while her peers couldn’t fully understand the depth of that relationship, highlighting the earlier confrontation with mortality that comes with older parents.[00:28:00 - 00:30:00] The Time RealityThe host becomes emotional discussing the limited time she’ll have with her younger child compared to her older children. M acknowledges being in a caretaker role earlier than peers, while both teens recognize they’re navigating adult responsibilities and emotional territories years before their classmates.[00:30:00 - 00:31:00] Perimenopause and Puberty CollideThe episode ends on a lighter note with both teens sharing humorous observations about their mothers experiencing menopause while they navigate their own developmental changes. From constant hot flashes to temperature battles, they’ve learned to navigate this unique generational overlap with humor and understanding.THE GENERATIONAL BRIDGEWhat Makes This Experience Different:These teens represent children raised across three to four generations—from Baby Boomers to Gen Z. This creates a unique worldview marked by exposure to vastly different cultural values, technological literacy gaps, and varied approaches to parenting and education.The teens note their ability to bridge these worlds: teaching technology to their elders while learning timeless wisdom and practical life skills. They’ve developed emotional intelligence and perspective-taking abilities that set them apart from peers with younger parents.The Challenge of Earlier Maturity:While their peers may not face questions of parental aging and mortality until their twenties or thirties, these teens are already navigating health scares, considering future caregiving responsibilities, and processing grief.This accelerated confrontation with life’s harder realities creates both burden and wisdom beyond their years.KEY QUOTES“I think having older parents just made me see the bigger picture more.” -- M“My parents, when they had me, they knew how to manage the world. They had already managed it... they made it a priority for me to be independent.” -- Liv“Don’t be embarrassed. You just gotta accept it. Find those things that you can really be grateful for about having them.” -- M“I wouldn’t be who I am without having older parents.” -- Both teensPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:● Embrace your wisdom and life experience as assets—your children will benefit from your levelheaded approach and broader perspective on life’s challenges.● Teach practical life skills explicitly—insurance, apartment hunting, communication with adults, and independence. Your children will appreciate this preparation.● Be open about your parenting journey, including mistakes and growth. This vulnerability creates deeper connections and models healthy self-reflection.● Stay curious about your children’s world while teaching them about yours. The technology gaps can become opportunities for mutual learning and bonding.For Teens with Older Parents:● Don’t be embarrassed by age differences—embrace what makes your family unique and find aspects to appreciate rather than hide.● Recognize and value the wisdom your parents offer. Their perspective, calm approach, and life experience are genuine advantages.● Build connections with other teens who have older parents. These shared experiences create understanding that peers with younger parents may not provide.● Accept that you may face realities like aging and caregiving earlier than peers. This isn’t a flaw—it’s developing resilience and emotional maturity.For Partners and Family Members:● Acknowledge that older parents may have different anxieties about time, health, and legacy. Validate these concerns without dismissing them.● Support multi-generational households and recognize the valuable role grandparents play in raising children, even as they age.● Understand that teens with older parents may mature faster emotionally and take on adult responsibilities earlier than typical.For Everyone:● Challenge stereotypes about “geriatric pregnancy” and older parenthood—these families have unique strengths and valuable perspectives to offer.● Recognize that parenting approaches evolve with experience, research, and cultural shifts. What worked for one generation may need adaptation.● Create space for honest conversations about aging, mortality, and caregiving. These difficult topics become easier when addressed openly.RESOURCES MENTIONEDPrevious Episodes Referenced:● Episode 5 with Sherry (Liv’s mother) - Discussion of multi-generational parenting and cultural support systemsTopics for Further Exploration:● Secure attachment theory and multiple attachment figures● ADHD and dyslexia support in modern education systems● Neurodivergence and generational differences in diagnosis and support● Grief counseling for children who lose parental figures● Perimenopause and menopause support resourcesCALL TO ACTION● Share this episode with teens who have older parents and with older parents who worry about their children’s experiences● Start conversations in your family about aging, time, and the unique gifts of your generational makeup● Connect with other families navigating similar dynamics to build community and share wisdom● Subscribe and leave reviews to spread awareness about the diverse experiences of middle-aged motherhood● Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Middle-Aged Mama DramaEpisode 5:Parenting Across Cultures - An Indigenous Mother’s JourneyEPISODE OVERVIEWShelley and Jenny welcome Sheri, an indigenous mother, legal consultant in child welfare, and tribal judge who shares her unique experience navigating motherhood at 51 with teenage daughters. This conversation explores the intersection of professional life, cultural values, generational caregiving, and the distinct challenges of being an older mom in both indigenous and mainstream American cultures.KEY TOPICS:• Cultural differences in parenting approaches between indigenous and mainstream culture• Multi-generational caregiving and living arrangements• Professional motherhood and workplace flexibility• The sandwich generation experience with aging parents• Energy levels and vibrancy challenges of midlife parenting• Generational gaps between older parents and their children• Educational privilege and parenting standards• Indigenous values of communal parenting and elder respectEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 - 00:04:00] Introduction and Energy ChallengesSheri introduces herself as a 51-year-old mother of two teenagers, explaining how her experience differs dramatically from her own parents who were young, energetic parents. She reflects on the contrast between going to bed at 9pm in perimenopause while waiting up for her teen, versus her father still being vibrant and active at age 34.[00:04:00 - 00:07:00] The Intentional Path to ParenthoodSheri shares her deliberate journey to motherhood, explaining how growing up helping raise relatives in an unstable environment motivated her to wait until “all her ducks were in a row.” She pursued law school and established her career first, not just for professional achievement but to ensure she could afford to parent without the financial struggles she witnessed growing up.[00:07:00 - 00:10:00] Tribal Culture’s Support for Working MothersIn a powerful contrast to mainstream workplace culture, Sheri describes working as chief prosecutor for a tribe that embraced bringing babies to work during the first year. Her father came to work with her daily to care for her baby, and the multi-generational, communal approach to childcare was completely normalized and celebrated within the tribal community.[00:10:00 - 00:13:00] Cultural Contrasts and Life ExpectancyThe conversation reveals striking statistics about tribal communities, including an average life expectancy of just 52 years. Sheri explains how elder care and respect for elders is central to tribal values, making workplace flexibility for family needs a priority rather than a sign of lack of commitment.[00:13:00 - 00:16:00] The Pressure of PrivilegeSheri candidly discusses how her professional success and knowledge of child development have actually increased the pressure she places on herself as a parent. With more resources, education, and stability than her family members, she feels she has “no excuses” and worries intensely when her children face any challenges.[00:16:00 - 00:19:00] Balancing Multiple Caregiving RolesAs an only child to her father, Sheri describes the weight of caring for him while he struggled with heroin addiction, while simultaneously being a present mother, supportive sister to a single mom, and maintaining her career. The expectation to be a “good relative” across all relationships creates enormous pressure.[00:19:00 - 00:23:00] Feminism, Work Values, and Cultural IdentitySheri contrasts her mother’s generation’s focus on being a “good worker” with her own primary value of being a “good relative.” She reflects on trying to mesh professional success with indigenous values while navigating the unique challenges of being one of few Native lawyers in her field.[00:23:00 - 00:27:00] Parenting Teenagers with Wisdom and CalmThe hosts discuss how being older parents has made them calmer and more knowledgeable about child development. Sheri shares how she talks to her children like “little adults” and focuses on explaining the “why” behind expectations rather than demanding blind obedience, despite family members’ differing opinions.[00:27:00 - 00:31:00] Living Multi-GenerationallySheri describes the benefits and challenges of having her father and auntie live with her family until recently. While having elders present provided additional support and connection for her daughters, it also created tension when educational approaches to parenting conflicted with traditional values.[00:31:00 - 00:35:00] Knowledge, Power, and PerimenopauseThe conversation touches on how education and reading about child development has empowered their parenting choices. Sheri shares her commitment to normalizing experiences like perimenopause by openly discussing her estrogen patch changes with her 13-year-old daughter, contrasting sharply with the silence of previous generations.THE CULTURAL DIVIDEIndigenous vs. Mainstream Values:Sheri navigates two distinct cultural frameworks that sometimes conflict:• Tribal community expectations: Children present at work, communal parenting, bringing babies to professional settings, elder respect as top priority• Legal field/mainstream expectations: Traditional work-life boundaries, nuclear family structures, individual achievement focus• Her approach: Intentionally seeking employers who honor indigenous values while maintaining professional excellenceImpact on Parenting:• More support systems but also more opinions and potential conflicts• Richer cultural foundation but additional pressure to honor multiple value systems• Greater flexibility in some areas but heightened expectations in othersTHE GENERATIONAL EXPERIENCEWhat’s Different for Older Parents:Energy and stamina:• Going to bed at 9pm during perimenopause while parenting teens• Contrasting with memories of parents who were vibrant at similar ages• Physical realities of aging while children are still dependentGenerational gaps:• Three-generation gap between parents and children versus one-generation with younger parents• Different technological fluency and cultural references• Grandparents who are seniors rather than active middle-aged adultsKnowledge and pressure:• More education about child development creates higher standards• Greater awareness of potential challenges leads to more worry• Professional privilege removes “excuses” for parenting strugglesKEY QUOTES“My number one value was to be a good relative. And it wasn’t just parenting, but it was like to be a good niece, to be a good auntie, to be a good, all of these things.” -- Sheri“I have all the things, if you will, so it’s a lot of pressure to do it if you have like I have no excuses type of thing.” -- Sheri“Bringing your child to work isn’t that strange or awkward. And they have a breastfeeding policy that you can bring your baby to work for the first year.” -- Sheri (describing tribal workplace culture)“The version of Jenny that would’ve had a child in her twenties would not have been the same version that is raising a child today. I was much easier to fly off the handle and like, yes, my anxiety was out of control.” -- JennyPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:• Recognize that having more knowledge and resources can actually increase parental pressure - practice self-compassion• Seek employers or create work situations that align with your core values around family• Be intentional about normalizing life experiences (menopause, aging) with your children• Consider the benefits of multi-generational support systems when possible• Remember that being calmer and wiser as an older parent is a real advantageFor Employers and Organizations:• Consider implementing family-friendly policies that support working parents across cultures• Recognize that elder care is as important as childcare for many families• Create flexible work arrangements that don’t penalize employees for meeting family needs• Understand that supporting the whole person creates more committed, effective employeesFor Partners and Family Members:• Active, hands-on co-parenting can dramatically reduce pressure on mothers• Respect different parenting philosophies even when they conflict with traditional approaches• Offer support without judgment, especially when parenting approaches differ across generations• Recognize the unique challenges of the sandwich generation caring for both children and aging parentsFor Everyone:• Challenge the myth that parents should raise children completely independently• Recognize that different cultural approaches to parenting have valuable lessons• Support older parents who may be navigating unique generational and energy challenges• Understand that knowledge is power - education about child development and aging can transform parentingRESOURCES MENTIONEDCultural Concepts:• Indigenous communal parenting practices• Multi-generational living arrangements• Elder respect and care as central cultural valuesProfessional Context:• Child welfare field• Tribal court systems and tribal employment• Legal careers and indigenous representationImportant Statistics:• Average life expectancy in some tribal communities: approximately 52 years• 2023 milestone: More women over 40 gave birth than teenagers for the first time in U.S. historyUpcoming Content:• Shelley’s workshop: “From Guilt to Grace”• Future episode planned: interviewing teenagers of older parentsCALL TO ACTION• Share this episode with anyone navigating cultural identity and parenthood• If you’re part of a marginalized community balancing multiple cultural expectations, know you’re not alone• Subscribe and leave reviews to spread awareness about diverse parenting experiences• Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Ep. 4: Mom Guilt, with Jeni** NOTE: In this podcast we reference an episode where we interviewed Sheri, an Indigenous middle-aged, full-time working mom of two teens. That episode will be uploaded next week. Something to look forward to! :-) EPISODE OVERVIEWHosts Shelley and Jeni explore the universal experience of mom guilt from two different life stages - Shelley as a mother of an adult child and a teen and raising a first grader, and Jeni as a new mom to a two-and-a-half-year-old. They discuss how American culture structurally contributes to maternal guilt, the compounded guilt of older motherhood, and the journey from guilt to grace.KEY TOPICS:* The universality of mom guilt across different parenting stages* Working mother guilt and attachment concerns* Cultural and structural factors that create mom guilt in America* Mom shaming and judgment from other mothers* How past parenting choices affect current guilt* The unique guilt challenges of middle-aged motherhood* Moving from guilt to grace through self-awarenessEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:00:00 - 00:02:00] Introduction and Different Types of Mom GuiltShelley and Jeni introduce themselves as middle-aged moms at different stages - Shelley with children ranging from their twenties to first grade, and Jeni with a two-and-a-half-year-old. Jeni shares her multiple layers of guilt as a working mom, from major concerns about leaving for work to minor worries about whether her daughter wore a warm enough coat.[00:02:00 - 00:05:00] Mom Shaming and JudgmentThe hosts discuss how mom shaming from other mothers compounds personal guilt feelings. Jeni describes receiving looks and comments about her daughter’s clothing choices, including from her own mother about car seat safety practices that have changed since the 1980s. They explore how external judgment feeds internal guilt.[00:05:00 - 00:07:00] Structural Issues in American Parenting CultureShelley ponders on how American culture uniquely sets mothers up for guilt by placing full responsibility on mothers while providing minimal support. She contrasts this with other countries that offer guaranteed parental leave, affordable childcare, and multi-generational family support, noting that the U.S. expects mothers to be constantly available while also being productive workers.[00:07:00 - 00:10:00] Working Mother Guilt and Attachment FearsJeni shares her deep guilt about returning to work after 16 weeks of parental leave, describing crying while pumping and the anxiety that her daughter wouldn’t be securely attached to her since her husband was the primary caregiver. Shelley reassures her that children can have multiple secure attachment figures and that this is actually beneficial.[00:10:00 - 00:13:00] The Milk Shipping IncidentJeni recounts a heartbreaking business trip where she was pumping and shipping breast milk home, only to discover on the third day that the hotel hadn’t been mailing the packages. She describes this as representing overwhelming guilt about being away from her daughter and feeling like she couldn’t even do the one thing to nurture her child from afar.[00:13:00 - 00:15:00] Health Concerns and Parental ResponsibilityJeni discusses her guilt around her daughter’s abdominal migraines, questioning whether she’s done enough to ensure proper treatment and care. This leads to a broader conversation about how mothers constantly question if they’re doing enough for their children’s wellbeing.[00:15:00 - 00:19:00] Shelley’s Story: Parenting Her Oldest DaughterShelley opens up about her oldest daughter’s struggles with addiction stemming from trauma and an abusive relationship. She reflects on being a single mother without community support, working full-time, and not having the healing and emotional regulation skills she has now. She describes carrying years of guilt about not being emotionally available and how this affected her daughter’s ability to feel secure.[00:19:00 - 00:22:00] Growth, Awareness, and Changing PatternsShelley shares how she’s been completely honest with her daughter about where she “goofed up,” acknowledging both her successes and failures. She describes specific changes she’s made with subsequent children, including no longer yelling and not rushing kids constantly. She references research on how always hurrying children contributes to anxiety.[00:22:00 - 00:26:00] Values, Anxiety, and TimelinessBoth hosts discuss the anxiety of being late that was instilled in them - the belief that “if you’re on time, you’re late.” Jeni shares her own struggle with this, noting she sometimes arrives 30-40 minutes early to events. They explore how they’re working to manage this anxiety and not pass it on to their children.[00:26:00 - 00:29:00] The Compound Guilt of Older MotherhoodShelley introduces the concept of “compound guilt” for older mothers - guilt about the past, present, and future all at once. Jeni describes her first moment of mom guilt at her initial OB appointment when labeled “advanced maternal age,” and her ongoing concerns about looking old for her daughter and being mistaken for a grandparent.[00:29:00 - 00:32:00] Longevity Concerns and Quality Over QuantityThe hosts discuss the reality that their children likely won’t have them as long as children of younger parents. Jeni reflects on her father losing his mother at age 70, while Shelley notes her kids won’t be in their fifties and still have her. They emphasize focusing on quality experiences and relationships rather than quantity of time.[00:32:00 - 00:34:00] From Guilt to GraceShelley introduces her upcoming workshop “From Guilt to Grace,” explaining the importance of changing our relationship with guilt rather than trying to eliminate it. She emphasizes seeing guilt as information rather than moral failure, and learning to give ourselves grace, especially when structural support systems are lacking.THE GUILT CHALLENGE FOR MOTHERSWhat’s Missing:* Guaranteed parental leave in the United States* Affordable, accessible childcare* Multi-generational family support systems for many families* Cultural acceptance that one parent cannot meet all of a child’s needs alone* Recognition that working long hours while being constantly available is impossibleWhat is Happening:* Mothers bear full responsibility for children’s wellbeing* American culture values both intensive mothering and productive work* Mothers face judgment from other mothers and society* Support systems are expensive and hard to access* Mothers internalize external pressures as personal failuresThe Stakes:When mothers carry excessive guilt without adequate support, it affects their mental health, their relationships with their children, and their ability to parent effectively. The cultural expectation that mothers should do everything perfectly while managing work and home creates an impossible standard that harms families.ATTACHMENT AND CAREGIVING INSIGHTSMultiple Attachment Figures:* Children can and should develop secure attachments to more than one caregiver* Different attachment figures serve different purposes (comfort, exploration, etc.)* Having multiple secure attachments is beneficial for children’s development* Multi-generational and community-based caregiving provides variety children needWorking Parent Reassurance:* Quality of interaction matters more than constant presence* Children benefit from seeing parents model work, passion, and purpose* Secure attachment can form even when parents work outside the home* The “one primary attachment figure” belief is outdatedKEY QUOTES“We have structured it so that it is always the mother’s responsibility... we don’t have guaranteed parental leave, we don’t have a lot of childcare support, it’s expensive, we have a very expensive healthcare system, and we have this expectation that mothers should be constantly available, constantly engaged.” -- Shelley“When you know better, you do better.” -- Shelley (quoting Maya Angelou)“I don’t want her to feel like she always has to say, ‘Okay mommy,’ but also sometimes her ‘okay mommies’ are like, ‘Okay mommy, whatever, I’m not doing that.’” -- Jeni“It’s not about fixing, it’s just about changing our relationship with guilt because it doesn’t go away... but it’s about how do we change our relationship with it, and how do we put up a healthy boundary?” -- ShelleyPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:* Recognize that guilt is information, not a moral failing - ask what it’s telling you* Be honest with your children about where you’ve grown and what you’ve learned* Focus on quality of time and experiences rather than quantity, especially as an older parent* Consider how cultural structures (not just personal choices) contribute to your guilt* Practice self-compassion and move from guilt to graceFor Working Mothers:* Your child can form secure attachments to multiple caregivers - this is healthy and beneficial* Different caregivers serve different purposes in your child’s life* The quality of your interactions matters more than constant physical presence* Acknowledge the structural challenges (lack of parental leave, expensive childcare) that make working parenthood difficultFor All Mothers:* Question the “rush culture” - research shows constantly hurrying children increases anxiety* Examine inherited values about timeliness and whether they serve your family* Practice saying “I’m sorry” to your children when you make mistakes* Remember that you will parent better as you learn more - give yourself grace for past choices* Build community with other mothers at similar life stages for support and normalizationRESOURCES MENTIONEDConcepts Discussed:* Secure attachment theory and multiple attachment figures* Research on rushing children and anxiety development* “Advanced maternal age” and geriatric pregnancy terminology* Cultural differences in parental leave and childcare supportUpcoming Offerings:* “From Guilt to Grace” workshop by Shelley* Upcoming episode interviewing teenagers of older parentsFuture Episode Referenced:* Episode with Sheri about community-based parenting supportCALL TO ACTION* Share this episode with other mothers struggling with guilt* Join the conversation about how cultural structures create impossible standards for mothers* Subscribe and leave reviews to help other mothers find this community* Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 4: Depression in Daughters – The Research Gap We Can’t IgnoreEPISODE OVERVIEWIn this important episode, Shelley and Jeni explore the connection between maternal age and depression risk in daughters—a topic that emerged from their conversation with Caity in Episode 3. The discussion reveals a shocking gap in mental health research affecting millions of families.KEY TOPICS:· The 2015 Australian study linking maternal age (35+) to higher depression in daughters· Jeni’s postpartum depression experience at age 44· Complete lack of follow-up research despite rising maternal ages· Mental health support gaps for middle-aged mothers· Alternative therapies (EFT/tapping) for maternal anxiety· The need for age-specific mental health protocolsEPISODE STATISTICS:· 2023: First time in U.S. history more babies born to women 40+ than to teenagers· Fertility rates for women 40-44 increased 127% since 1990· Yet virtually no mental health research on this population since 2015EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS[00:01:00 - 00:03:00] Jeni’s Postpartum Depression StoryJeni shares a vivid memory of sitting on her nursery floor organizing diapers while sobbing uncontrollably. Despite experiencing “the happiest thing in my life,” she felt overwhelming sadness and depression that continued well beyond the typical two-week “baby blues” period. The frightening loss of control over her emotions was intensified by the hormonal changes after giving birth at 44.[00:04:00 - 00:06:00] Modern Pressures on DaughtersJeni expresses deep concerns about raising a daughter in today’s world, where 13-14 year olds look like adult women due to social media influence, makeup knowledge, and impossible beauty standards. She emphasizes the importance of approaching this research with knowledge rather than fear: “Sometimes the best thing you can do is not be scared of something, but be armed with knowledge and power.”[00:06:00 - 00:08:00] Shelley’s Different ExperienceShelley’s postpartum experience at 43 was different—navigating a marriage affected by addiction while caring for a newborn, a 10-year-old, and stepchildren. She doesn’t remember feeling depressed, experiencing instead fear and uncertainty. This highlights how postpartum experiences vary widely.[00:08:00 - 00:10:00] The 2015 Australian StudyKey findings from this groundbreaking research:· Daughters of mothers 35+ showed significantly higher depression and anxiety rates at age 20· Effect found ONLY in daughters, not sons· Effect linked ONLY to maternal age, not paternal age· The study has never been replicated· No follow-up research has been conducted[00:10:00 - 00:12:00] The Shocking Research GapShelley’s discovery: Despite millions of women worldwide having children at advanced ages and dramatic demographic shifts, there has been no research on this topic since 2015.Current research focuses only on fertility issues and pregnancy complications—mental health is completely ignored.[00:12:00 - 00:14:00] Personal StakesJeni reflects that her daughter will be 20 when Jeni is 64, potentially facing retirement. This reality drives her health choices: “Get healthy, keep walking, keep moving... so that you get to 64 and it looks like you’re still in your fifties or forties.”The 2014 Canadian study found mothers over 40 had higher depression rates than younger mothers, raising questions about how maternal mental health impacts children—another area with no recent research.[00:16:00 - 00:17:00] The Perimenopause ConnectionJeni shares how hormones “go sideways” during perimenopause, significantly affecting her mental health throughout life. The overlap of perimenopause/menopause with active parenting needs urgent research attention.[00:18:00 - 00:21:00] Jeni’s Pregnancy Anxiety CrisisDuring late pregnancy, Jeni experienced a surge of anxiety when she couldn’t breathe due to the baby pressing on her organs. Her OCD kicked into full gear with obsessions about dying.After trying talk therapy with minimal relief, she made a collaborative decision with her obstetrician, psychiatrist, and husband to start an antidepressant. She got relief within weeks, though struggled with medication consistency postpartum.[00:23:00 - 00:25:00] The EFT/Tapping BreakthroughJeni’s talk therapist spent most sessions talking about herself—a poor fit. Shelley connected Jeni with EFT practitioner Jeni Johnston in Australia. The tapping technique gave Jeni a powerful sense of control: “I am in control right now. The world is not spinning out of control.” Both hosts had forgotten this happened until their conversation![00:25:00 - 00:27:00] What is EFT?Shelley, a certified EFT practitioner, explains Emotional Freedom Technique:· Combines Eastern medicine (acupressure points) with Western psychology (exposure therapy and CBT)· Clinical research shows it’s equally effective as EMDR for trauma· Works for trauma, phobias, fears, cravings, and anxiety· You expose yourself to difficult memories/emotions while pressing acupressure points to calm the body and rewire neural pathways· Research by Dr. Peta Stapleton validates its effectivenessShelley is developing group EFT tapping sessions specifically for middle-aged moms.[00:27:00 - 00:29:00] The Middle-Aged Gap in HealthcareShelley notes that Psychology Today listings skip from “young adults” to “older adults”—nothing for middle-aged people.Society lacks cultural spaces, medical focus, and mental health recognition for this life stage.This needs to change.THE RESEARCH GAP CRISISWhat’s Missing:Despite dramatic increases in women having children after 35, there’s virtually no research on:· Mental health outcomes for middle-aged mothers beyond postpartum· Long-term family dynamics with older parents· Mental health outcomes for children of middle-aged mothers· Why daughters (not sons) show higher depression rates· Why maternal age matters but paternal age doesn’t· Mechanisms behind these findings· Preventative strategies or interventionsWhat is Being Studied:· Fertility issues and technology· Pregnancy complications· Everything that can be “managed” medically· But mental health is completely ignoredThe Stakes:Children born to 40+ mothers in 2023 will be 20 years old in 2043—when we’ll see if the Australian findings hold true. But we’re doing nothing to prepare, prevent, or understand.UNIQUE CHALLENGES OF MIDDLE-AGED MOTHERHOODAdvantages:· More psychologically prepared and emotionally mature· Greater life experience and wisdom· More established professionally and financially stable· Can have deeper, more mature conversationsChallenges:· Stronger fears because we’ve “lived long enough to know some hard truths”· Perimenopause/menopause overlapping with active parenting· Less energy than younger parents· Worries about longevity and missing children’s milestones· Children entering adulthood while parents become elderly· Potential for earlier caregiving responsibilitiesKEY QUOTES“I had experienced like the happiest thing in my life, what I had dreamt of happening forever and ever and ever. And yet all I could feel was sadness and tears and just so many tears and depression.” – Jeni“Knowledge is power. I think it’s a little bit one step further. It’s what we do with the knowledge.” – Shelley“Do you know what I found? Nothing. Nothing. That there has been no research done in this field specifically of depression, this link between maternal age and female depression later in life.” – Shelley“It gave me a sense of control. I felt like I am in control right now. The world is not spinning out of control. I have a grasp on whatever it is I’m trying to get a grasp on, and it was very therapeutic for me.” – Jeni on EFTPRACTICAL TAKEAWAYSFor Middle-Aged Mothers:· Don’t assume postpartum depression is “just baby blues”· Seek support early—find therapists who understand your life stage· Consider alternative therapies like EFT if traditional therapy isn’t working· Know that medication can be appropriate and helpful· Build strong support systems and prioritize your health for longevityFor Healthcare Providers:· Screen older mothers specifically for mental health risks· Create age-specific protocols for this distinct population· Don’t focus only on fertility and pregnancy complications· Provide appropriate mental health resources and supportFor Everyone:· This research gap affects millions of families right now· We need to replicate existing studies and examine mechanisms· Society must recognize middle-aged adults as a distinct life stage· Women’s health research generally needs more funding and attentionRESOURCES MENTIONEDStudies Discussed:2014 Canadian Study2015 Australian StudyMental Health Resources:Jenny Johnston - EFT practitioner, AustraliaDr. Peta StapletonCALL TO ACTION· Share this episode with middle-aged mamas and healthcare providers· If you’re a mental health or medical professional, contact the podcast to share your expertise· Subscribe and leave reviews to spread awareness· Email: [email protected]: Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Ep. 2: Guest Interview with CaityHello, thank you for being here. I’m excited to have my friend Jeni joining me as co-host for this episode, a role she’ll take on from time to time. Jeni is also a middle-aged mama, giving birth in her 40’s to her now two-and a-half-year-old daughter. Welcome Jeni! I hope you all enjoy this episode and thank you for bearing with us as we navigate the podcast learning curve. Hosts: Shelley & JeniGuest: CaityEpisode Highlights:· Introduction to Caity: 39 years old, expecting her first baby in November, sharing her journey as a middle-aged mother.· We discuss experiences and expectations around pregnancy and delivery at an older age.· Breastfeeding: Pressures, hospital resources, and the value of community advice.· Navigating “geriatric pregnancy” label and how OBs present age-related risks and benefits in appointments.· Generational perspectives: Gen X vs. Millennial experiences of motherhood.· Mental health: The importance of proactive self-care, recognizing warning signs, and openness.· Cravings, food restrictions, and funny anecdotes about pregnancy symptoms.· The value of doulas and support systems during delivery.· Reflections on the emotional journey: Anticipation, anxiety, and the reality of becoming parents later in life.· Community and connection: The importance of sharing stories to support other women.Key Topics Covered:· 00:00 Welcome to Middle-Aged Mama Drama· 00:30 Meet Our Hosts and Guest· 00:52 Caity’s Pregnancy Journey· 01:33 Hospital Experiences and Breastfeeding· 05:19 Navigating Pregnancy as an Older Mom· 14:42 Generational Perspectives on Motherhood· 19:15 Mental Health Support During Pregnancy· 20:45 Food Cravings and Restrictions· 28:00 Birth Preparation and Delivery Plans· 34:00 Closing Thoughts and Future EpisodesResources Mentioned:Book: “Expecting Better” by Emily Oster, available here. Discussion of research on pregnancy risks and mental health for middle-aged mothershttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38540450/Connect With Us:Remember to subscribe and share Middle-Aged Mama Drama with your friends, family, and coworkers. If you are a middle-aged mama and have a story you would like to share, or know someone you would like us to interview, please reach out to us at [email protected] you for being here. Our community is stronger and better because you are in it. You belong here exactly as you are. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe

Middle-Aged Mama Drama (MAMD)Episode 1 - Host Intro November 3, 2025Welcome to Middle Aged Mama Drama, a community for you and your support system navigating motherhood later in life.Host: ShelleyEpisode Summary: In this debut episode, I introduce myself and the inspiration behind Middle-Aged Mama Drama, a podcast and community for women navigating motherhood in midlife. I share my personal journey, from single motherhood and career changes to unexpected pregnancy at 42, blending families, and the challenges of parenting through major life transitions.Key Topics:* The surprise of becoming pregnant again at age 42 and the emotional rollercoaster that followed.* The “birth” of Middle Aged Mama Drama: standing between a tween and a toddler, imagining the chaos of menopause, puberty, and potty training all at once.* Stories of other middle-aged mothers: surprise pregnancies, becoming a mom for the first time, step-parenting, and more.* The need for a supportive community where older moms can share real, unfiltered experiences—everything from menopause to career dilemmas.* The parallels between adolescence and middle age: identity, change, and self-discovery.Notable Quotes:* “Middle age: old enough to know better, time enough to do better.”* “I wish somebody had told me, you’re not alone. Your timing is valid. There’s no one right way to do this.”* “We need this space where we can celebrate the wisdom that comes with experience and laugh together about the absurdities we face.”Call to Action:I invite you to share your experiences of middle-aged motherhood. Future episodes will feature middle-aged mothers and individuals working in the medical and mental health fields to discuss issues unique to middle-aged mothers.* Are you a middle-aged mom?* A partner/spouse of a middle-aged mom?* A mental health or medical professional with insights/questions/feedback/experience on this topic?* Do you have questions or topic ideas you’d like us to discuss?We invite you to join the conversation! Reach out at [email protected] you for listening! I’m excited to build this community and look forward to connecting with you. Get full access to Middle-Aged Mama Drama at shelleybee.substack.com/subscribe