NeLI Pod

Guest: Professor Jonah PerettiLegal Writing Professor & Ethics Scholar, Georgetown LawHost of The Howard Lawyer podcastProfessor Jonah Peretti joins Daniel and Brandon for a wide‑ranging conversation on how generative AI is reshaping legal practice, legal education, and the economics of the profession. Drawing on his background as a litigator, clerk, and scholar, Peretti argues that AI is not a revolution but the latest step in a long line of technological shifts. He explains why the billable hour is unlikely to disappear, how confidentiality has evolved into a duty of security, and why critical thinking—not drafting—is the lawyer’s true competitive advantage.AI is evolutionary, not exceptional. Past predictions about technology killing the billable hour or transforming lawyering never fully materialized; AI is another turn of the wheel.The billable hour will adapt. Through his CHARGE equation, Peretti shows that reduced hours don’t doom the model—rates, reductions, and expenses also shape compensation.Critical thinking and security define modern lawyering. AI handles routine tasks; lawyers must excel at judgment, empathy, and safeguarding client data.Redesign assessments and training to measure comprehension and critique, not tasks AI can perform.Treat confidentiality as a duty of security, requiring ongoing cybersecurity literacy.Build pricing narratives that explain how AI‑enhanced work delivers concentrated value.Invest in human‑centric skills—judgment, empathy, strategic thinking.Prepare for structural shifts as historical billing data becomes less predictive.Chapters & Timecodes00:00 – Introduction & Guest Welcome 03:15 – AI as the Next Turn of the Wheel 06:45 – Confidentiality Becomes Security 08:30 – How AI Is Changing Legal Education 12:20 – Historical Parallels in Tech Adoption 15:45 – The Assessment Challenge 18:10 – Are We Losing Core Skills? 22:00 – The CHARGE Equation & Billable Hour Survival 26:30 – Challenging the AI Efficiency Narrative 30:15 – Why AFAs Haven’t Taken Over 34:00 – The Real Threat: Devaluation of Legal Work 38:45 – Critical Thinking as the Human Advantage 42:30 – Obsolescence of Historical Billing Data 45:00 – How Legal Practice Evolves Over Decades 48:30 – Optimism About the Profession’s Future 51:00 – Closing Remarks“The real danger isn’t efficiency—it’s clients deciding your work is no longer valuable.”

Guest: Dr. Jeremy PickensManaging Director of Applied Science, ElevateEpisode OverviewIn this masterclass‑level conversation, Dr. Jeremy Pickens—one of the most respected information retrieval scientists in e‑discovery—joins Daniel and Brandon to explore the intellectual foundations and future trajectory of search, relevance, and AI in legal practice. Jeremy’s work has shaped the evolution from keyword search to TAR 1.0, to continuous active learning (CAL), and now to the GenAI era. If you’ve used active learning in any modern review platform, you’ve likely benefited from his research.The discussion ranges from polyphonic music retrieval to tokenization, from ancient Greek philosophy to the cold‑start problem in TAR, and from contextual diversity to the challenges of evaluating AI systems. Jeremy brings a rare blend of deep technical rigor and practical sensibility, offering a perspective that helps legal professionals understand not just what works, but why it works.Key TakeawaysPatterns matter more than keywords. Jeremy’s early work in polyphonic music retrieval mirrors the complexity of legal documents—both require identifying structural patterns, not just surface‑level signals.(“Finding those connections historically over time… is very similar to the storytelling and pattern finding we want to do in e‑discovery.”)Feature extraction is as important as the algorithm. Tokenization, stemming, and sub‑word representations can make or break a machine learning model’s ability to recognize meaning across documents.Outcome‑driven evaluation beats checkbox shopping. Lawyers should focus on how well a system performs on real data—not on whether it claims to use a particular algorithm or technique.Action Items for Legal TeamsEvaluate platforms using simulations, not demos. Ask vendors to run your data through their system to measure recall, precision, and learning speed.Understand the basics of tokenization. Even a high‑level grasp helps practitioners make better decisions about search and review workflows.Adopt CAL for early signal exploitation. Even a single coded document provides useful information—there’s no need for massive seed sets.Chapters & Timecodes00:00 – IntroductionDaniel and Brandon introduce Dr. Jeremy Pickens and his impact on the field.00:03:04 – Jeremy’s Philosophy: Being “Part of the Flow”Why ideas in e‑discovery evolve collectively, not individually.00:04:55 – From Polyphonic Music to Legal DocumentsHow musical pattern analysis informed Jeremy’s approach to information retrieval.00:08:34 – Short Messages, Semantic Boundaries, and IR ChallengesWhy Slack, Teams, and SMS require smarter segmentation techniques.00:11:03 – Feature Extraction 101Tokenization, stemming, n‑grams, and why they matter for TAR.00:14:53 – Sub‑Word Tokenization and OCRHow character‑level patterns help overcome noisy text.00:17:48 – What Practitioners Should Ask VendorsWhy checklists fail—and what outcome‑driven evaluation looks like.00:20:34 – The Importance of Frequent Model UpdatesHow recalculating rankings every two minutes improved precision by up to 20%.00:22:40 – Why Simulations Are the Missing PieceJeremy explains why the industry needs better evaluation frameworks.00:24:40 – Contextual Diversity: Finding What You Don’t KnowHow algorithms identify unexplored pockets of documents.00:28:56 – Solving the Cold‑Start ProblemWhy CAL can begin learning from the very first document.00:30:01 – Greek Philosophy and TARParmenides vs. Heraclitus as a metaphor for TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0.Compelling Quote“You don’t know what you don’t know… and the machine can look globally across the entire collection to find what you’ve never seen before.”

Guest: Amy AbramsonDirector, Litigation Solutions & Go‑To‑Market, UnitedLexEpisode OverviewIn this insightful conversation, Amy Abramson—a longtime leader at UnitedLex and a driving force behind some of the largest and most complex MDLs in the country—joins Daniel and Brandon to explore how e‑discovery strategy, culture, and technology are evolving together. With more than a decade at UnitedLex, Amy brings a rare blend of legal, operational, and business expertise to the discussion.The episode dives into how modern discovery has shifted from brute‑force review to evidence‑based strategy, why culture and partnership matter in high‑stakes litigation, and how organizations can modernize their legal operations without losing sight of risk, efficiency, or long‑term goals. Amy also shares candid insights on AI adoption, workflow design, data reuse, and why UnitedLex continues to invest in the NELI community.Key TakeawaysDiscovery has shifted from volume to strategy. Modern tools and AI allow teams to prioritize key documents early and build evidence‑driven workflows. (“We’re able to take multiple bites at the apple… really able to lead with evidence‑based strategy.”)Culture drives outcomes in high‑stakes matters. Trust, transparency, and shared values between service providers, law firms, and corporate clients are essential for meeting deadlines and managing risk.Modernization requires clarity and intentionality. Legal departments must understand their data landscape, retention policies, and business goals before investing in new technology.Action Items for Legal TeamsBuild a repeatable playbook. Standardize privilege, PII, and workflow decisions while leaving room for matter‑specific flexibility.Show early wins. Elevate hot documents quickly to build confidence in workflows and AI‑driven approaches.Align tech with purpose. Don’t buy AI tools for the sake of AI—define the problem first, then select the right solution.Plan modernization over 3–5 years. Evaluate data retention, internal expertise, and IT capacity before deciding what to insource or outsource.Chapters & Timecodes00:00 – IntroductionDaniel and Brandon welcome listeners and introduce Amy Abramson.00:01:52 – Amy’s Career at UnitedLexHow she joined the company right out of law school and grew into a leadership role.00:02:32 – How the Purpose of e‑Discovery Has EvolvedFrom search‑term brute force to strategic, evidence‑driven workflows.(“It’s no longer a badge of honor to say you had 500 people working on a case.”)00:04:20 – Culture, Values, and Client PartnershipsWhy shared values and long‑term relationships matter in complex litigation.00:06:27 – Managing MDLs and High‑Pressure MattersHow trust, transparency, and tough conversations shape successful outcomes.00:09:54 – Designing Workflows That Drive SuccessThe role of playbooks, early wins, and steering committees in building confidence.00:12:12 – Getting Attorney Buy‑In for AI and CALHow to address concerns about time, cost, and changing review models.00:15:22 – The Challenge of Reusing DataWhy consistency matters and how MD5 matching and sampling can help.00:18:49 – Helping Clients Adopt AI SafelyUnderstanding goals, vetting tools, and balancing people‑process‑tech.00:22:12 – Bringing Business Thinking Into Legal ConversationsHow Amy’s background in management and marketing shapes her approach.00:24:41 – The Barriers to ModernizationData retention, security, BYOD, and the realities of corporate IT.00:28:33 – Why UnitedLex Supports NELIA unique environment where judges, lawyers, and technologists learn together.Compelling Quote“It’s all still a people‑process‑tech equation… AI isn’t a magic button solution for everything.”

Guest: Steve DavisVice President, Forensics & Investigations Practice, Purposely Legal(“Doing well and good to see you both… always enjoy crossing paths with you.”)Episode OverviewDigital forensics is evolving faster than ever and returning guest Steve Davis brings a front‑line perspective on how investigators are adapting to a world defined by massive data growth, ephemeral messaging, encryption, and the rise of generative AI. In this episode, Steve breaks down the shifting landscape of evidence collection—from mobile devices and third‑party apps to structured databases and collaboration platforms—and explains why traditional assumptions about “where the data lives” no longer hold.The conversation also explores the practical realities of modern investigations: how to build a defensible collection plan, how to manage client expectations, and how AI is beginning to transform exfiltration and migration analysis. Steve closes with a candid look at why he keeps returning to NELI and what keeps him energized in such a rapidly changing field.Key TakeawaysData diversity now matters as much as data volume. Investigators must account for mobile apps, collaboration platforms, structured databases, and constantly shifting tool behaviors. (“Things can change literally a week or a month from what we did previously.”)Ephemeral messaging isn’t the end of evidence. While deletion is harder to overcome on modern devices, backups, syncs, and other participants’ devices often provide alternative paths to reconstruction. (“If the data is not there, the data is not there… but not necessarily.”)Gen AI is poised to reshape forensic analysis. Steve sees major potential in cross‑referencing artifacts, accelerating timeline reconstruction, and identifying patterns in exfiltration investigations. (“I think I’m dead wrong… there’s actually some super interesting things that are happening.”)Action Items for Legal TeamsStart every investigation with a structured plan. Identify custodians, platforms, timeframes, and data types before collecting anything.Avoid “collect everything” instincts. Large, nonlinear data sources require targeted, defensible scoping to avoid unnecessary cost and noise.Prepare clients for the realities of modern forensics. Explain why thorough questioning, planning, and methodical workflows are essential—and why there is no “easy button.”Chapters & Timecodes00:00 – IntroductionDaniel and Brandon welcome listeners and reintroduce Steve Davis.00:02:09 – What’s Changed Since Last YearSteve explains why digital evidence collection evolves weekly, not yearly.(“You’ve got to be a student of the game… constantly listen and learn.”)00:05:21 – The Explosion of Data TypesHow investigators help clients navigate diverse platforms, apps, and storage locations.00:08:31 – Linear vs. Nonlinear Data ChallengesWhy collaboration platforms, JSON outputs, and structured databases complicate downstream review.00:14:23 – Deletion, Encryption, and the Decline of RecoverabilityWhy SSDs and mobile architectures make deleted data harder to retrieve.00:17:17 – The Future of Forensics in an Ephemeral WorldHow backups, syncs, and other participants’ devices can still preserve critical evidence.00:20:50 – Gen AI’s Emerging Role in ForensicsSteve revises his earlier skepticism and highlights promising applications in migration and exfiltration analysis.00:24:39 – Discoverability of AI PromptsA discussion of enterprise vs. consumer AI tools and how prompts, outputs, and source code can be collected.00:26:57 – Managing Expectations: The Myth of the Easy ButtonWhy clients often underestimate the complexity of forensic workflows—and how Steve addresses that gap.Compelling Quote“You can’t arrive… you’ve got to keep your hand on the pulse and constantly listen and learn.”

NELIPod Episode SummaryGuest: The Honorable Xavier RodriguezUnited States District Court Judge, Western District of TexasEpisode OverviewIn this wide‑ranging and deeply practical conversation, Judge Xavier Rodriguez—national authority on e‑discovery, AI, and modern civil procedure—joins Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack to examine how technology continues to reshape litigation. Drawing on his judicial experience, academic work, and decades of practice, Judge Rodriguez offers a candid look at the gaps between the Federal Rules and today’s data landscape, the realities of AI adoption, and the persistent challenges of proportionality.Key TakeawaysThe Rules haven’t kept pace with modern data. Collaborative platforms, mobile devices, and ephemeral messaging have outgrown the assumptions of the 2015 amendments, creating new complexity in preservation and proportionality. (“The goal has not been able to keep up with collaborative devices… it’s all just increased in complexity.” )AI is here to stay—and must be used responsibly. Judge Rodriguez emphasizes validation, human oversight, and transparency, while rejecting blanket bans or unworkable disclosure mandates. (“We’re going to have to adopt a responsible use mentality.” )Discovery fights will intensify around AI‑assisted review. Expect disputes over prompts, validation rates, privilege, and sampling—echoes of the TAR wars, but more complex. (“I think it’s going to be even more difficult than the TAR wars.” )Action Items for Legal TeamsDocument your process. Whether using keywords, TAR, or AI‑driven workflows, maintain clear records of methodology, validation, and decision‑making.Be transparent with clients. Inform clients when AI tools are used and obtain consent before uploading sensitive materials. (“I would just be transparent with the client from the get go.” )Focus proportionality arguments on marginal utility. Tie requests directly to elements of claims or defenses and articulate why additional data advances the case.Chapters & Timecodes00:00 – Welcome & IntroductionsDaniel and Brandon open the episode and introduce Judge Rodriguez.00:01:54 – Why the 2015 Rules Are Struggling TodayJudge Rodriguez discusses the explosion of data sources and the limits of proportionality.(“The goal has not been able to keep up with collaborative devices… mobile phones, ephemeral messaging.” )00:03:41 – The Evolution of AI in Legal PracticeHow generative AI differs from earlier predictive coding and what responsible use looks like.00:06:54 – Validating AI‑Assisted ReviewThe need for human oversight, validation metrics, and realistic expectations.00:10:34 – Hallucinations, Databases, and OverreactionWhy focusing only on AI failures distorts the conversation.00:12:32 – Should Courts Require AI Disclosures?Judge Rodriguez explains why mandatory disclosures are unworkable and what his district is considering.00:16:00 – Client Communication & EthicsWhen and how lawyers should disclose AI use to clients.00:18:12 – Transparency, TAR Wars, and the Future of E‑Discovery ProtocolsA candid look at pre‑production fights, privilege issues, and validation battles.00:29:52 – Proportionality Done RightHow to argue proportionality effectively—and what wastes judicial time.00:36:46 – Are Law Schools Preparing Students?Judge Rodriguez on the gap between legal education and modern practice.00:41:51 – Why Judge Rodriguez Keeps Returning to NELIA reflection on community, learning, and the value of the conference.Compelling Quote“I’m taking the attitude in my work, hey, there’s some positives here… How can we responsibly adopt some of these AI tools to get to a quicker resolution for our clients with greater accuracy?"

Guest DetailsJohn Benson, E‑Discovery and Digital Forensics Expert; Founder of SecKC; Formerly with Stinson Morrison Hecker (Kansas City)Episode OverviewThis episode of The NeLI Pod brings together hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack with Kansas City–based e‑discovery and digital forensics expert John Benson for a deep, practical conversation about AI, confidentiality, and trustworthiness in legal practice. With more than 17 years of experience and a career spanning law firms, cybersecurity communities, and hands‑on technical work, Benson offers a grounded, real‑world perspective on how attorneys can responsibly evaluate and adopt AI tools.Key TakeawaysConfidentiality and trustworthiness remain the core tests for legal AI adoption. Benson emphasizes that evaluating AI tools begins with defining the specific risks—especially around cloud storage, training data, and vendor controls.Practical validation matters more than technical theory. Lawyers can safely experiment by testing AI tools on familiar material, checking outputs against known cases or documents, and treating AI as a junior associate whose work must be reviewed.AI drafting becomes dramatically more effective when lawyers use voice, not typing. Dictation allows models to capture a lawyer’s natural cadence and reasoning, producing outputs that align more closely with their authentic writing style.Action ItemsDefine the risk before choosing the tool. Identify whether the concern is confidentiality, cloud storage location, vendor trust, or model behavior—and evaluate tools accordingly.Use enterprise‑grade, first‑party providers for any client data. Avoid consumer apps or third‑party resellers when handling sensitive information.Experiment with your own documents. Validate reliability by testing AI on material you already know well.Adopt dictation for drafting workflows. Speak through your reasoning and let the model learn your voice, then refine the output through iterative prompting.Chapters with Timecodes00:00 – IntroductionOverview of the episode and introduction of guest John Benson.00:01:14 – Philosophy of Experimentation in Legal AIBenson discusses balancing healthy experimentation with professional responsibility.00:03:34 – Security Foundations: Defining the RiskHow to begin evaluating AI tools through a security and confidentiality lens.00:05:24 – Cloud Storage, Training Data, and Vendor ControlsUnderstanding where data goes—and why cloud fundamentals still matter.00:09:46 – Trustworthiness, Compliance, and Practical Due DiligenceHow lawyers can assess vendor claims and avoid misleading “checkbox compliance.”00:12:30 – The DeepSeek Case StudyA real‑world example of why model provenance and hosting location matter.00:16:23 – Evaluating AI Outputs: Reliability and BiasBenson explains his practical benchmarking approach and the role of task‑specific models.00:22:36 – Overwhelm in the Legal Market: Where Lawyers Should StartGuidance for attorneys who feel lost in the AI landscape.00:24:40 – “Get Your Hands Wet”: Safe, Practical ExperimentationWhy lawyers should test AI tools directly using their own materials.00:25:53 – Dictation as the Future of Legal DraftingHow voice input transforms accuracy, tone, and efficiency.00:29:56 – When Products Get in the Way of the ModelWhy lawyers should focus on the underlying model rather than the interface.Compelling Quote“Don’t be afraid to get your hands wet. If you get a bad summary, what’s the worst that happens? You learn something—and you go back to reading it the old‑fashioned way.”

Guest DetailsJudge Young KimNorthern District of Illinois, U.S. Federal CourtEpisode OverviewIn this episode of The NeLI Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack sit down with Judge Young Kim to explore how judicial philosophy intersects with the rapidly evolving world of electronic discovery. Judge Kim, the first Asian American appointed to the federal bench in the Seventh Circuit, brings a wealth of experience from his career as a public defender, Assistant U.S. Attorney, and EEOC Administrative Law Judge.The conversation dives into pressing questions about proportionality, reliability, and the role of courts in shaping discovery practices amid technological disruption. From TAR workflows to Gen AI review, Judge Kim offers candid insights into how judges balance fairness, efficiency, and the rule of law when technology outpaces procedure.Key TakeawaysRules as Anchor: Federal Rules of Civil Procedure remain the guiding framework, even as technology advances beyond their original scope.Reliability Over Transparency: Courts defer to producing parties’ review methods, provided they can explain and defend their processes in plain English.Proportionality in Practice: Requests must be supported with specific, concrete examples of burden or benefit; conclusory arguments about metadata or cost are insufficient.Action ItemsAttorneys should document and explain review processes clearly, using expert testimony when necessary.When raising proportionality objections, provide detailed evidence of burden (e.g., declarations, time studies).Leverage Rule 502(d) protections to streamline privilege review and reduce unnecessary costs.Chapters with Timecodes00:00 – Introduction and Welcome01:12 – Judge Kim’s Career Path to the Federal Bench02:35 – Courts’ Role in Shaping Discovery Amid Technology Shifts05:09 – Balancing Review Methods and Transparency09:03 – Discovery on Discovery: When Is It Warranted?11:00 – Disputes Over Form of Production and Metadata16:14 – Proportionality and Burden Analysis in Practice19:36 – Rule 502(d) Orders and Privilege Review23:06 – Validating TAR Workflows and Expert Testimony25:39 – Career Lessons Shaping Judicial Philosophy29:29 – Challenges of Authenticating Evidence in the Age of Gen AI32:43 – Looking Ahead: Prompts, AI, and the Future of DiscoveryCompelling Quote"At the end of the day, this whole litigation process is a truth-seeking process. Sometimes we forget that." –Judge Young Kim

🎙 Nelly Pod – Episode Show NotesGuest DetailsRobert Keeling – Partner, Redgrave LLPRobert is a nationally recognized authority on e-discovery, validation, and defensibility. He has led large-scale discovery matters for DOJ and FTC second requests, contributed to the Sedona Conference, and authored influential articles such as Humans Against the Machines and Document Review: You’re Doing It Wrong.Episode OverviewIn this episode of Nelly Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack sit down with Robert Keeling to explore one of the most pressing issues in modern legal practice: the intersection of AI, ethics, and discovery. Keeling reflects on his earlier arguments about the enduring value of human judgment and examines how generative AI is reshaping validation, privilege logging, and responsiveness review.The conversation dives into practical frameworks for defensibility, the challenges of authenticating evidence in the age of deepfakes, and the evolving role of specialized discovery counsel. For attorneys, judges, and legal professionals navigating this rapidly changing landscape, Keeling offers both caution and optimism about the future of AI in discovery.Key TakeawaysValidation remains essential: Generative AI requires the same statistical validation protocols as TAR, particularly for outward facing uses like responsiveness review.Privilege logging is ready for AI: Keeling argues that generative AI has matured enough to safely generate privilege log entries, though edge cases still require human oversight.Authenticity challenges loom large: Deepfakes and synthetic media pose unprecedented hurdles for evidence authentication, with family law and employment disputes likely to see early impacts.Action ItemsDifferentiate outward-facing vs. internal-facing uses of AI in discovery, applying rigorous validation only where defensibility is required.Document processes proactively and consider sharing protocols with opposing counsel to reduce disputes.Begin testing AI-driven privilege logging workflows, while maintaining human “sanity checks” for complex compilations.Chapters with Timecodes00:00 – Introduction & Welcome01:13 – Guest Background: Robert Keeling’s Career and Scholarship02:44 – Humans Against the Machines: Revisiting Human Judgment in the Gen AI Era05:27 – Validation & Defensibility: Outward vs. Internal AI Uses10:12 – Prompt Discoverability and Work Product Protection13:12 – Privilege Logging: AI’s Promise and Pitfalls17:34 – Gen AI in Second Requests and Merger Reviews20:10 – TAR 1.0 vs. Continuous Active Learning vs. Gen AI21:37 – Discovery on Discovery: Documenting Processes for Courts and Opposing Counsel23:38 – Evidence Authenticity in the Age of Deepfakes29:11 – Boutique vs. Big Law: The Future of Specialized Discovery Counsel32:36 – The Increasing Complexity of Modern DiscoveryCompelling Quote“The prompt is clearly work product, and it’s not even a close question. It reflects the thoughts and mental impressions of counsel about the case. To me, it’s classic opinion work product.” – Robert Keeling

Podcast Show SummaryGuest DetailsThe Honorable William Matthewman - United States Magistrate Judge, Southern District of FloridaKey TakeawaysEvolving Technological Competence:Judge Matthewman emphasized that lawyers must go beyond basic technology knowledge; true ethical practice today requires understanding platforms like Slack, Teams, and the implications of emerging technologies like Generative AI and ephemeral messaging.The Role of the Judiciary in Technology:Judges have an essential responsibility not only to stay updated on e-discovery and ESI (Electronically Stored Information) but also to actively manage cases to ensure fair, efficient, and proportional discovery processes using technology.Generative AI’s Opportunities and Risks:While Gen AI offers exciting new efficiencies, Judge Matthewman warned that it must be properly supervised. Lawyers (and pro se litigants) cannot blindly rely on AI outputs without rigorous verification, as hallucinations and misinformation still pose risks.Action ItemsLawyers: Stay updated through CLEs, seminars, and self-study; if technical knowledge is lacking, partner with IT experts or vendors.Judges: Actively educate themselves and help guide lawyers in properly managing e-discovery and technological issues.Organizations: Encourage young lawyers to focus on core legal skills (communication, evaluation, strategy, litigation) while responsibly using AI as an assistant—not a replacement.Pro Se Litigants: Must be cautioned to verify AI-generated legal materials to avoid filing hallucinated or incorrect submissions.Chapters with Timecodes00:10:11 🎙️ Opening & Guest Introduction: Introduction of Judge Matthewman and his background.00:11:06 📚 Key Tenets of E-Discovery: Discussing the 10 Tenets from Judge’s Law Review article and their relevance today.00:13:04📈 Are We Closer to Better E-Discovery?: Status update on the legal community's adherence to better e-discovery practices.00:14:15 ⚖️ Judges’ Role in Encouraging Tech Adoption: How the judiciary should lead in promoting technological competence.00:17:59🔥 The Expanding Definition of Competence: Why basic knowledge isn't enough for lawyers anymore.00:23:03📚 Continuing Legal Education & Lifelong Learning: How lawyers must keep evolving their technology knowledge.00:24:20🤖 Gen AI's Impact on Law and E-Discovery: Challenges and opportunities Gen AI presents.00:27:47🕵️ Supervising Gen AI in Legal Work: Why oversight is critical when using Gen AI for document review.00:30:42👩‍🎓 Young Lawyers and AI: Risks and realities of new lawyers growing up with Gen AI tools.00:37:17 ⚖️ Equal Access and Pro Se Litigants: Gen AI's double-edged impact on pro se litigants.00:40:01💡 Building Good Lawyers in a High-Tech Era: Essential skills every young lawyer must develop.00:44:09 🏛 Judge Matthewman's Legacy Vision: Final thoughts on building a fairer justice system.00:47:22🎤 Closing: Thanking Judge Matthewman and wrapping up.🔔 Don’t forget to subscribe to the NeLI Podcast for more expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery!🎙 Follow Us:⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook

Guest DetailsKelly Twigger - CEO of Minerva26Kelly Twigger is the creator of the ESI Practical Guides, host of Case of the Week series, frequent panelist and webinar contributor on eDiscovery topics. She is also a practicing attorney and Adjunct Professor teaching eDiscovery at the University of Colorado at Boulder Law School.Key TakeawaysHyperlinked Documents Pose New Challenges:Courts are inconsistent on whether hyperlinked documents should be treated like attachments. Organizations must proactively manage hyperlink data, and counsel must adapt to technical realities.The Role of Legal and IT Collaboration:Organizations that effectively align legal and IT through strong information governance and proactive policy-setting can better control discovery costs and reduce litigation risk.Generative AI Brings Both Promise and Risk:While Gen AI offers potential efficiencies, it also introduces ethical risks—such as hallucinated case law—that lawyers must diligently supervise and verify.Action ItemsDevelop robust ESI protocols that cover hyperlinks from all storage sources, not just platforms like Google Drive.Educate legal teams on managing hyperlinked documents and ephemeral data properly.Implement better communication between Legal, IT, and Records departments to anticipate discovery needs.Train legal professionals and students to balance AI tool usage with maintaining strong traditional legal research skills.Update and enforce policies around data retention, ephemeral messaging, and possession/custody/control of devices.Chapters with Timecodes00:00:00 🎙 Guest Introduction: Kelly Twigger's background in eDiscovery and education.00:05:00📎 Challenges with Hyperlinked Documents: Legal and technical issues, and how courts are grappling with them.00:15:00 🏛 Organizational Technology Choices: Holding companies accountable for ESI management decisions.00:22:00🔗 Hyperlinks in ESI Protocols: Lessons from recent cases on improperly scoped ESI protocols.00:30:00 🛠 Information Governance and IT Collaboration: Building bridges between legal and IT for better discovery outcomes.00:38:00🚀 Generative AI Risks and Ethics: The promise of AI and the ethical pitfalls lawyers must avoid.00:47:00 🎓 The Role of AI in Legal Education: How law schools and students must adapt to the new tech-driven reality.00:55:00🔥 Ephemeral Data Challenges: Why disappearing messaging apps create major risks in litigation.01:05:00🧩 Future Legal Trends: Predicting how AI and data practices will reshape the legal landscape by 2026.Most Compelling and Thought-Provoking Quote"The tools will change, but our obligation to preserve the integrity of the legal process never will."✅ This perfectly captures the heart of the episode: technology may shift rapidly, but the ethical responsibilities of lawyers remain constant.🔔 Don’t forget to subscribe to the NeLI Podcast for more expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery!🎙 Follow Us:⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook

Podcast Show SummaryGuest DetailsJudge Allison Goddard – U.S. Magistrate Judge, Southern District of CaliforniaJudge Goddard brings a wealth of experience from both private practice and the judiciary. She has been at the forefront of eDiscovery, AI in litigation, and proportionality in modern discovery. Recently, she collaborated with the Sedona Conference on AI guidance for the judiciary, making her an invaluable voice on legal tech adoption.Key Takeaways1️⃣ AI in the Judiciary Is Here to Stay – Courts are exploring how judges can responsibly use Gen AI while maintaining human oversight ("Judge in the Loop"). AI can enhance efficiency, but it requires proper safeguards.2️⃣ The Evolving Role of AI in Discovery – AI-assisted eDiscovery tools, hyperlinked documents, and bias in search prompts are raising new legal challenges. Attorneys and judges will need to balance efficiency with defensibility in discovery practices.3️⃣ The Black Box Problem & Legal Trust – While AI tools are powerful, many legal professionals remain skeptical because of lack of transparency and potential bias. The judiciary will likely require expert testimony and case law development to address these concerns.Action Items✅ Judges should explore Gen AI responsibly – AI can assist in drafting orders and summarizing briefs but should never replace judicial reasoning.✅ Lawyers must address AI in Rule 26 Conferences – Expect new disputes over AI-generated discovery results and defensibility of prompts.✅ Stay updated on AI case law & Sedona Guidelines – Courts are actively shaping policies on Gen AI in discovery, confidentiality, and proportionality.Podcast Chapters & Timecodes🕒 00:00 – Introduction: Welcoming Judge Allison Goddard and her work in AI & eDiscovery.🕒 02:13 – AI in the Judiciary: How the Sedona Conference guidelines shape AI use for judges.🕒 10:46 – The Complacency Risk: AI tools are getting better, but judges & lawyers must avoid over-reliance.🕒 19:07 – AI in Drafting & Decision Making: How Gen AI enhances efficiency while preserving human judgment.🕒 28:48 – AI in eDiscovery: A New TAR Battle?: The next legal fights will likely center around AI-generated search results & bias in prompts.🕒 37:28 – Show Me Your Prompt!: Will courts begin demanding AI prompt transparency in discovery disputes?🕒 45:10 – The Future of AI in Law: How AI could reduce bias in judicial decisions and reshape legal practice.🔔 Don’t forget to subscribe to the NeLI Podcast for more expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery!🎙 Follow Us:⁠⁠ LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠ X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook

Podcast Show Summary Guest DetailsDoug Austin – Founder & Editor of eDiscovery TodayDoug has been a leader in the eDiscovery industry for over 30 years, with expertise spanning consulting, project management, and daily industry analysis. As the editor of eDiscovery Today, he provides key insights on emerging trends, case law, and legal technology.The Cloud Has Reshaped eDiscovery – The shift from on-premise to cloud-based data has significantly transformed how legal professionals approach eDiscovery. With the explosion of collaboration tools like Slack, Teams, and Google Drive, legal teams must rethink collection strategies.Hyperlinked Documents Are a Game-Changer (and a Challenge) – The transition from traditional email attachments to linked files presents new hurdles in preservation, collection, and proportionality. Courts are beginning to weigh in, but clear best practices are still evolving.Deepfakes & Fabricated Evidence Will Be Major Legal Challenges – The rise of generative AI makes it easier to create and manipulate evidence. Legal professionals must develop new strategies to authenticate digital evidence and ensure forensic integrity.✅ Stay informed on hyperlinked document case law—protocols are evolving rapidly.✅ Ensure metadata and forensic analysis are prioritized to validate digital evidence.✅ Invest in education & certifications (like ACEDS) to stay ahead of eDiscovery trends.✅ Dedicate 5-15 minutes daily to reading legal tech insights and 1 hour per month to attending webinars.🕒 00:00 – Introduction: Welcoming Doug Austin, background in eDiscovery.🕒 06:22 – The Evolution of eDiscovery: From paper-based discovery to digital transformation.🕒 16:51 – The Most Impactful Technology Shift: Why the cloud is the most significant disruptor.🕒 19:56 – Hyperlinked Documents & Legal Challenges: How courts are dealing with modern attachments.🕒 28:44 – The "Smoking Emoji" Case & Deepfakes: The rise of fabricated evidence in courtrooms.🕒 38:11 – Where to Stay Educated in eDiscovery: Key resources, blogs, and conferences.🕒 41:56 – State of the Industry Insights: Key takeaways from the 2025 report.🕒 46:14 – Advice for New Legal Professionals: Certifications, networking, and industry best practices.🔔 Don’t forget to subscribe to the NeLI Podcast for more expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery!🎙 Follow Us:⁠ LinkedIn⁠⁠ X (Twitter)⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠ Facebook

Podcast Episode Title🔍 E-Discovery, AI, and the Future of Legal Tech: A Conversation with Dr. Maura GrossmanEpisode DescriptionIn this compelling episode of the NeLI Podcast, Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack sit down with the distinguished Dr. Maura Grossman, a visionary in e-discovery and AI in the legal space. Dr. Grossman shares insights from her pioneering work in Technology-Assisted Review (TAR) and Continuous Active Learning (CAL), discusses the evolution of AI in the legal industry, and explores the challenges of AI-generated evidence in the courtroom. She also weighs in on how generative AI is reshaping discovery and the regulatory implications that courts must urgently address.Whether you’re a legal professional, a technology enthusiast, or someone curious about the intersection of law and AI, this episode is packed with critical insights, thought-provoking discussions, and expert perspectives.🎧 Tune in to hear:The unexpected challenges Dr. Grossman faced while introducing CAL to the industry.Why early TAR adoption was met with skepticism and economic pushback.The potential pitfalls of generative AI in legal discovery.How case law has evolved (or failed to evolve) alongside technological advancements.Why courts and attorneys need to rethink digital evidence authentication in the AI era.Dr. Grossman’s vision for the future of legal tech and the legacy she hopes to leave.💡 Resources Mentioned:📄⁠⁠2011 Richmond Journal of Law & Technology Article on CAL⁠⁠ – Dr. Maura Grossman & Gordon Cormack’s seminal work introducing Continuous Active Learning (CAL) in e-discovery.📄⁠⁠AI in the Court: How Worried Should We Be? (2024)⁠⁠ – Dr. Maura Grossman, Judge Paul Grimm, and others discuss the risks of AI-generated evidence in legal proceedings.📄⁠⁠Federal Rules of Evidence Advisory Committee Proposals on AI Evidence⁠⁠ – Latest updates on potential changes to the Federal Rules of Evidence addressing AI-generated evidence.🔔 Don’t forget to subscribe to the NeLI Podcast for more expert insights on legal technology, AI, and e-discovery!🎙 Follow Us:⁠⁠ LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠ X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook⁠⁠

Guest Details:In this episode of Nellie Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Braided Mac welcome Todd Itami, Director of Artificial Intelligence and Discovery Solutions at Covington Law Firm. Todd is a seasoned attorney and a recognized leader in AI and legal technology, specializing in integrating cutting-edge AI solutions into legal practice.Key Takeaways:The Inevitable AI Revolution in Law – AI is no longer just about efficiency; it’s about creating new value. The way lawyers interact with data, analyze cases, and deliver insights will change fundamentally.The Future of eDiscovery – Traditional document review processes are wildly inefficient. AI-driven indexing and retrieval will transform eDiscovery by making large-scale document review smarter and faster.Adoption Challenges and Roadmap for AI in Law Firms – Firms must move beyond the hype and start integrating AI tools now, encouraging lawyers to experiment and develop real-world use cases.Action Items:Lawyers should start using AI tools to understand their potential rather than waiting for "perfect" solutions.Firms must create a use-case registry to document and analyze the most effective AI applications in their practice.Legal professionals should invest in AI training, including short courses and hands-on practice with generative AI models.Chapters with Timecodes:[00:01:31] - Introduction of guest: Todd Itami, Covington Law Firm[00:08:08] - Todd’s role in AI & eDiscovery solutions[00:16:00] - How law firms are adopting AI and where the industry is headed[00:26:22] - The inefficiencies of traditional eDiscovery and AI's role in solving them[00:35:00] - The impact of better indexing and data retrieval on legal workflows[00:44:30] - Practical roadmap for AI adoption in law firms[00:57:20] - The importance of training lawyers in AI and technology[01:05:00] - Why Todd believes this AI moment is different from past tech shifts[01:20:40] - Final thoughts and the role of organizations like Nellie in AI educationMost Compelling Quote:"I've yet to meet a lawyer who really digs into AI tools for 10 or 20 hours and then says, ‘Yeah, never mind.’ It’s just too valuable." – Todd Itami Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduHon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

Tom Gricks, Managing Director of eDiscovery at OpenText, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR), the legal industry's resistance to AI-driven workflows, and how Generative AI is reshaping document review. With a unique background in chemical engineering and law, Tom shares insights into the early battles over predictive coding, the transition from TAR 1.0 to TAR 2.0, and the future of AI-powered legal technology.Key TakeawaysThe Intersection of Engineering & Law – Tom Gricks shared his unconventional journey from chemical engineering to law, highlighting how his analytical mindset shaped his approach to eDiscovery. He explained how engineers and lawyers think differently but ultimately solve complex problems using structured methodologies.The Evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR) – Tom argued the first case in the U.S. advocating for TAR, overcoming resistance to predictive coding in litigation. He outlined how TAR evolved from 1.0 (seed set training) to 2.0 (continuous active learning - CAL), reducing document review costs and improving efficiency.Generative AI’s Role in eDiscovery – Tom provided an insightful comparison between TAR and Generative AI, warning against overhyping AI’s potential while acknowledging its growing role in automating document review. He stressed the importance of validation, transparency in prompts, and integrating AI into existing workflows rather than replacing traditional review methods entirely.Action Items✅ Understand Validation – If you’re using TAR or AI in eDiscovery, ensure robust validation measures to confirm accuracy and defensibility.✅ Bridge the Knowledge Gap – Legal teams should collaborate with data scientists to understand machine learning models and optimize AI-assisted review.✅ Prepare for the Future – AI-powered tools will continue to evolve, so firms must stay agile, incorporating AI alongside traditional methodologies rather than prematurely discarding proven tools.Chapters with Timecodes⏱ 00:02 – Introduction & Guest Welcome (Tom Gricks)⏱ 00:06 – Tom’s Engineering-to-Law Journey: A Non-Traditional Path⏱ 00:14 – The Early Days of eDiscovery & Predictive Coding Resistance⏱ 00:24 – The Landmark Case That Introduced TAR to Courts⏱ 00:35 – TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0 – The Shift to Continuous Active Learning⏱ 00:45 – Why Some Firms Still Resist TAR and What Needs to Change⏱ 00:54 – Generative AI in eDiscovery: Is It the Next Big Thing or Overhyped?⏱ 01:05 – The Future: AI + TAR for Maximum EfficiencyMost Compelling Quote"Lawyers tend to be risk-averse, but what they don’t realize is that they got worse results before technology than they do with it. The challenge is not whether AI works—it’s whether we trust what we don’t understand." – Tom Gricks Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduTom Gricks: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-gricks-5259a71a  Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook  

Podcast Show SummaryGuest DetailsJudge Andrew J. Peck, retired U.S. Magistrate Judge and Senior Counsel at DLA Piper, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of eDiscovery, predictive coding, and the legal industry's slow adoption of technology.Key TakeawaysThe Slow Adoption of TAR & AI – Despite landmark rulings endorsing predictive coding (TAR), the legal industry remains resistant to change, relying heavily on keyword searches instead of embracing newer, more efficient technologies.Judicial Understanding & eDiscovery Challenges – Many judges are now more tech-savvy than the attorneys appearing before them, but the legal profession as a whole remains hesitant to incorporate advanced analytics, email threading, and AI-assisted review into their workflow.The Future of Generative AI in eDiscovery – While AI holds immense promise, Judge Peck warns of potential "AI tax" concerns, where discovery disputes over prompts and validation could hinder adoption, much like early TAR battles.Action ItemsLegal professionals must educate themselves on AI & eDiscovery tools – Judge Peck emphasizes that technology can enhance efficiency, but lawyers must invest time to understand its application in legal practice.Judges should facilitate tech adoption by encouraging efficiency over outdated methods – Courts should push back on inefficient discovery practices, leveraging cost-saving technology where appropriate.Law firms should proactively engage their IT teams and tech experts – Understanding the scope of data production (e.g., hyperlink documents, Slack messages, texts) before stipulating discovery agreements can prevent costly mistakes.Chapters with Timecodes📌 [00:00:02] – Introduction by hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack📌 [00:01:32] – Welcome to Judge Andrew Peck📌 [00:02:09] – Judge Peck’s history with the NeLI Conference📌 [00:05:46] – The industry’s slow adoption of TAR and predictive coding📌 [00:09:07] – Challenges with lawyer resistance to technology📌 [00:15:15] – Expanding scope of eDiscovery: text messages, Slack, and hyperlinked documents📌 [00:25:02] – The rise of generative AI in eDiscovery: promise & pitfalls📌 [00:32:35] – The importance of validation and defensibility in AI-assisted review📌 [00:37:04] – Future of AI in legal discovery and potential rule changes📌 [00:42:05] – Advice for law students on embracing legal technology📌 [00:44:50] – Closing remarks and upcoming Nellie Conference in 2025Most Compelling Quote"AI won’t replace lawyers, but lawyers who fail to embrace AI may find themselves replaced." – Judge Andrew J. Peck (Ret.) Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduHon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

Podcast Show SummaryGuest Details:Guest: Paul McVoy, Shareholder at Repario Data.Key Takeaways:Evolution in e-Discovery: Paul shares how the industry evolved from paper-based processes to advanced technology, emphasizing how AI assists in document summarization and analysis.Ethical & Validation Standards in AI: Paul discusses the importance of transparency and validation in using AI for legal discovery, asserting that all tools should meet high standards to ensure reliability.Sedona Conference's Role: Paul highlights his role in shaping e-discovery frameworks, with an emphasis on open dialogue and cooperation across legal perspectives.Action Items:Implement rigorous validation steps when using AI in legal processes to ensure reliable outputs.Encourage open, transparent communication between parties to resolve discovery disputes more efficiently.Engage in continuous learning and adaptation as e-discovery technology evolves.Chapters with Timecodes:[00:01:00] – Introduction of Paul McVoy and his journey in the e-discovery field.[00:10:45] – Evolution from paper-based discovery to AI-powered solutions.[00:21:30] – Differences between defense and plaintiff perspectives in e-discovery.[00:32:15] – Ethical considerations and importance of AI validation.[00:45:20] – The Sedona Conference's role and contributions to legal discovery.[00:55:10] – Repario Data and the significance of open collaboration in legal tech.[01:05:00] – Final thoughts and contact details for Paul McVoy.Most Compelling Quote:"If you can show me that you validated whatever process you're using, you could have kindergartners decide what you want to produce; validation makes all the difference." Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduPaul McVoy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-h-mcvoy-55a6424 Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

Guest DetailsMary Cooper, Vice President, Account Management at UnitedLex.Key TakeawaysMary highlighted the importance of adaptability and resilience in career development.She emphasized the growing role of technology and legal tech in reshaping the legal industry.Leadership in legal account management requires a deep understanding of client needs and a strategic approach to problem-solving.Action ItemsInvest in learning new technologies related to legal services.Focus on building strong client relationships by understanding their unique challenges.Continuously adapt to the changing demands of the legal industry to stay ahead.Chapters with Timecodes00:00:00: Introduction and Mary's Career Background00:05:30: Challenges in the Legal Industry During the 2008 Recession00:10:45: Transition to Legal Account Management00:20:10: The Role of Technology in Modern Legal Services00:30:30: Leadership and Client Relationships00:40:15: Advice for Aspiring Legal ProfessionalsMost Compelling Quote"I feel like eDiscovery is still one of those niche areas where when people ask what I do, I almost have to ask, 'Do you have 20 minutes?' It's such a cool, dynamic field that constantly evolves with new challenges and opportunities." Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduMary Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-cooper-b5985918 Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

Podcast Show Summary:Guest Details:Steve Davis, Vice President for Forensics and Education, Purpose Legal.Key Takeaways:1. Steve shared his journey from a federal investigator to leading forensics, emphasizing how investigations have evolved with digital tools.2. The importance of understanding where data resides (residency) and ensuring that redundant backups exist to prevent data loss during investigations.3. Steve discussed how the growing role of AI in legal tech and eDiscovery is evolving, but he remains cautious about AI's current capabilities in forensics.Action Items:1. When handling eDiscovery, prioritize identifying the end goal of the investigation before diving into the data.2. Ask detailed questions about the devices and platforms involved to ensure accurate data collection, especially with mobile devices and third-party apps.3. Ensure continuous education for your team on the latest technological advancements and forensic techniques to stay ahead in the field.Chapters with Timecodes:- [00:00] Introduction: Hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack introduce the show.- [02:30] Guest Introduction: Steve Davis of Purpose Legal.- [04:00] Background: Steve's journey from federal investigator to forensics expert.- [10:30] Forensics in eDiscovery: Insights into data residency and redundancy.- [18:45] AI and Forensics: Skepticism and potential future roles for AI in legal tech.- [26:15] Corporate Data Handling: Common pitfalls and lessons for organizations.- [35:50] Advice for Aspiring Forensics Professionals.- [42:00] Conclusion: Closing thoughts and where to find Purpose Legal.Most Compelling Quote:"Humans are really average—we make mistakes all the time. But in forensics, solving problems requires more than just technical expertise; it’s about asking the right questions and understanding the end goal of the investigation." Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.eduSteve Davis: https://www.purposelegal.io/leadership/steve-davis Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

Guest Details: Leah Bays, e-Discovery Attorney at Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP, a plaintiff’s firm in San Diego that focuses on securities class actions, antitrust, and consumer fraud cases.Key Takeaways: 1. Career Journey and Passion for Plaintiffs’ Work: Leah’s transition from the defense bar to the plaintiff’s side was driven by her desire to protect and advocate for those with less power, particularly against large corporations. Her work in e-discovery at Robbins Geller allows her to fight for justice, leveraging technology to find critical facts that shape her cases. 2. The Role of Process in e-Discovery: Leah emphasizes the importance of setting up robust e-discovery processes, including ESI protocols, to avoid disputes and ensure that discovery is handled efficiently and fairly. She believes in clear communication and the necessity of both sides understanding and respecting the process. 3. Challenges in the Plaintiff’s Bar: Unlike the defense side, plaintiffs rely entirely on the information provided by their opponents, often leading to a contentious and obstructive discovery process. Leah discusses the strategic advantages and unique challenges of working on the plaintiff’s side, including the need for thorough analysis and quick evaluation of received documents.Action Items: 1. Develop Clear ESI Protocols: Attorneys should establish clear and detailed ESI protocols early in the discovery process to minimize disputes and streamline information exchange. 2. Foster Open Communication: Legal teams should focus on transparent and collaborative communication, explaining the rationale behind discovery requests to facilitate a more efficient and less adversarial process. 3. Invest in e-Discovery Education: Legal professionals, especially those in the plaintiff’s bar, should continue to enhance their knowledge and skills in e-discovery to effectively manage and utilize technology in their cases.Chapters with Timecodes:0:00 – 5:15: Introduction and guest background.5:16 – 15:30: Leah’s career path from defense to plaintiff’s bar.15:31 – 25:00: The importance of process in e-discovery and setting up ESI protocols.25:01 – 35:00: Challenges and strategic advantages in plaintiff-side e-discovery.35:01 – 45:00: Collaboration45:01 – 50:00: Leah’s involvement with the National eDiscovery Leadership Institute (NeLI) and her perspectives on education in the legal field. Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu Lea Bays: https://www.rgrdlaw.com/attorneys-Lea-Malani-Bays.html - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-malani-bays-a274a8b  Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

The latest episode of NeLI Pod is here! On this episode, Daniel and Brandon sit down with Tessa Jacob, partner at Husch Blackwell in Kansas City. Tessa leads the firm's industry-leading eDiscovery Solutions team and has multiple awards and accomplishments in the field, including an appointment to a three-year term on the Sedona Conference's Working Group 1 Steering Committee. Listen to Tessa's insights on the present and future of e-discovery and her practical tips for attorneys on how to effectively and efficiently manage an e-discovery process. No matter your experience with e-discovery, you will find Tessa's remarks informative and inspiring! Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu Tesa Jacos: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tessajacob - https://www.huschblackwell.com/professionals/tessa-jacob Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook

In this inaugural episode of NeLI Pod - the official podcast of the National eDiscovery Leadership Institute - join co-hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack as they welcome Robin Perkins, Partner at Kutak Rock and Founder of NeLI. As you'll hear in their discussion, Robin's passion for the eDiscovery field and especially for educating lawyers about the field is so strong that 10 years ago, she started a conference! The NeLI Conference 2024 will be September 19-20 in Kansas City. Robin also shares about her latest personal endeavor: buying a ranch!Published 6/4/2024 Resources: Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org Visit UMKC School of Law:law.umkc.edu Robin Perkins:https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-perkins-1a267232  Daniel Gold:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold  Brandon Mack:https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack Our Social Media: LinkedIn X (Twitter) Instagram Facebook