Outlawed

Last week's rollercoaster of legal rulings and misinformation about mifepristone is enough to cause whiplash. Even Bev and Jonas are confused! So these two justice-seeking OB-Gyns activated the bat signal for all defenders of abortion pill access, and got three reproductive health superheroes into the studio, stat. Legal professor David Cohen, public health specialist Dr. Ushma Upahdyay, and abortion provider Dr. Robin Wallace break down the Louisiana case, bust mife myths, and share what’s next no matter what happens at the Supreme Court on Monday May 11th.Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here.  Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: [email protected] Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

It was nearly 17 years ago that Dr. George Tiller was assassinated in his church for providing abortion care. In this episode, Bev and Jonas speak with retired OB-Gyn Dr. Shelley Sella, who was trained by Dr. Tiller, and calls him “a midwife at heart.”  She became one of the first women to openly provide third-trimester abortion care in the United States, and advocates for a midwifery model of care that centers the patient and prioritizes observation and patience. Her book, Beyond Limits: Stories of Third-Trimester Abortion Care (Beacon Press) is a testament to the critical importance of abortion without restrictions, and comes out in paperback on May 26th.Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here.  Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: [email protected] Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

Wandering wombs? Terrifying tampons? After-birth abortions? Science keeps advancing, but peddlers of misinformation persist. In this episode, fact-wielding OB-Gyns Bev and Jonas become a myth-busting trio with the addition of OB-Gyn Dr. Fran, who went viral fighting shady claims with clarity and humor in the arenas of TikTok and Instagram. With tips on how to distinguish legitimate accounts, when to engage, and what works best in a medium too short for nuance, you might just be inspired to become a trusted source of facts about reproductive health in your own online communities. Find Dr. Fran on social media @PagingDrFranWant a cool contraception sweater? https://pagingdrfran-shop.fourthwall.com/Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: [email protected] Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

The who, where, when, and how of abortion in the United States is challenging to measure, yet understanding the healthcare landscape post-Dobbs remains important for meeting patient needs. The Guttmacher Institute is a trusted source for abortion data collection and analysis, and released full-year 2025 abortion incidence and travel data this week. Bev and Jonas ask all their nerdy questions and receive thoughtful answers from Guttmacher data scientist Isaac Maddow-Zimet. Together, they form a poignant picture of the lengths people will go to obtain care, and why the benefits of data collection outweigh the risks. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: [email protected] Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

As abortion providers with families of their own, Bev and Jonas know that abortion is an essential part of many parenting stories. There is no right way to have a family, though today’s guest Jamilah Lemieux will offer great advice and insight if you ask. Jamilah is an author and cultural critic, and pens the Care and Feeding advice column for Slate. She chose both motherhood and abortion as a single parent, and her experiences inspired her to talk to other Black single mothers for her new book, “Black. Single. Mother. Real Life Tales of Longing and Belonging (Penguin Random House 2026), which just came out!Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here.For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/Email us at [email protected].

Bev and Jonas leave their white coats and their egos behind to better understand the existing network of abortion care outside the clinic. Science journalist Rebecca Kelliher, author of the book Just Pills: The Extraordinary Story of A Revolution in Abortion Care (Beacon Press 2025), provides global context to the like-minded outlaws and heroes making medication abortion accessible. Public health specialist and Plan C co-founder Elisa Wells (plancpills.org) offers a first-hand account of the innovative research transforming how you get pills by mail in all 50 states, despite the bans.Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053Check out our substack newsletter here:  outlawed.substack.com

We’re doctors, not cops. But as more and more miscarriages and self-managed abortions lead to arrests and prosecution, the medical system and law enforcement have become entwined in unsettling ways. Kim Mutcherson, a law professor at Rutgers and expert on reproductive justice, helps us understand the new reality of medical providers reporting patients for essential healthcare, and the biases that influence whose care is criminalized.

Heather Booth is an original outlaw who provided access to abortion care before Roe, as a founding member of the Jane Collective. Bev and Jonas are thrilled to get a masterclass from 80-year-old Booth this week in how word-of-mouth networks, resolve, and hope can fuel the  fight against injustice right now. Saddle up and join us. 

Who is your favorite dynamic duo? Batman and Robin? He-man and She-ra? You probably don’t have a sociologist and lawyer pair on your list, but we would argue that you should! This week Bev and Jonas have a conversation with an amazing duo - law Professor David Cohen and sociologist Dr. Carole Joffe. They wrote a book last year called "After Dobbs: How the Supreme Court ended Roe but not abortion."Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/Email us at [email protected].

We're replaying one of our favorites from season 1 - an interview with Professor Katie Watson from Northwestern. She is the author of Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion and has been widely published in the medical literature regarding the ethics of reproductive health care. We discuss a variety of topics on today’s show including: myths about abortion after birth, the impact of abortion bans on other aspects of reproductive health care (like IVF), and Katie’s thoughts about the Dobbs decision.Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

Traveling during the holidays is full of unexpected mishaps due to the sheer numbers of fellow travelers. Travelling for an abortion is challenging all year round — because lawmakers have designed it that way. In front of every obstacle, people who care are there to help others through it with dignity. Bev and Jonas meet Mike Bonanza of Elevated Access, a pilot flying people privately for free to states with abortion care. Amanda Rich, executive director of Faith Roots Reproduction Action, then shares what a difference abortion fund volunteers can make in arranging secure transit and accommodations as well as covering costs like gas money and child care. Support these great organizations on their websites!https://www.elevatedaccess.org/https://www.faithrootsrepro.org/Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/

You’ve driven hundreds of miles to get an abortion. Took off work (unpaid), and so did your partner, who’s home with the kids. Staying overnight is a necessity but too expensive, and will it even be safe and comfortable enough for you to rest?Around two hundred thousand abortion patients make long journeys each year in search of care. Toshiko of With Gloria matches abortion travelers to last-minute vacancies in donated Airbnbs from everyday sidekicks like Persephone. Over the next two episodes, Bev and Jonas meet the helpers who are reducing the harm of Dobbs in unexpected and uplifting ways.Support With Gloria: https://withgloria.org/ Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

It’s time again for awkward silences and passive aggressive compliments with a side of mashed potatoes. So we’re seeking solutions to the age-old question: What do we say to friends and relatives when they spread harmful misinformation during the holidays in the guise of politics or “alternate” facts? This week Bev and Jonas get practical and usable advice from communication expert, Dr. Tania Israel, author of Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide and Facing the Fracture: How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation. Bob’s your uncle — this is your sign to finally have that conversation.A few resources:Debating facts? Check out www.allsides.comLink to learn more about the Bridging Movement: listenfirstproject.org  -- sign up for their Listen First newsletter!Take the pronunciation quiz here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/dialect-quiz-map.htmlWant to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

Enjoy a bonus episode from The Dream podcast. This past year Charlotte Isenberg, a once-popular teen anti-abortion activist, found herself switching sides in this national debate. What happened to her next is unprecedented and a warning for parents and kids alike.Find Charlotte on Tik Tok here:@blueridgejewessWant to make a tax-deductible donation to support Outlawed and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

Jonas and Bev talk with Renee Bracey Sherman, reproductive justice advocate, founder of We Testify, and author of the fantastic book: Liberating Abortion: Claiming our history, sharing our stories, and building the reproductive future we deserve. We have a great conversation with Renee about abortion storytelling and the dichotomy of which stories are elevated in the public discourse. We also dive into the common myth about mifepristone being in the water - listen as Renee busts a myth!Renee's book is now out in paperback - you should check it out! https://bookshop.org/p/books/liberating-abortion-claiming-our-history-sharing-our-stories-and-building-the-reproductive-future-we-deserve-regina-mahone/d3171aea5597471d?ean=9780063228153&next=tWant to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here:   https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

We’ve heard individual stories of the impact of Dobbs on reproductive care. But what do we know about the larger societal impact of bans and restrictions across the United States? Economist and Middlebury College Professor Caitlin Myers, creator of the Abortion Access Dashboard, is an expert in putting abortion data (literally) on the map. This week Bev and Jonas talk to Caitlin about applied microeconomics as a tool to understand how the increased burden of travel and other barriers to care affect people’s lives and wellbeing. In 2024, 155,000 people (approximately 15 percent of abortion seekers) traveled out of state for care, as part of an overall increase in yearly abortions in the United States since Dobbs. Professor Myers shares how an increase despite restrictions is possible. Are you interested in making a tax-deductible donation to support the podcast? Click here!: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

The combination of mifepristone and misoprostol is currently the most common abortion method in the US, and increased access to medication abortion through telemedicine is the only way for many patients in restrictive states to access care. Now states like Texas are attacking that access, despite decades of definitive safety data for mifepristone. In this episode, Bev and Jonas talk with Dr. Daniel Grossman, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at UCSF and the director of ANSIRH (Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health). He breaks down the history, safety, and current advances in science related to medication abortion and shares the facts you need to combat misinformation, especially about mifepristone. Are you interested in making a tax-deductible donation to support the podcast? Click here!: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

Bev and Jonas interview Asha Dahya, an Emmy-nominated producer, writer, TEDx speaker and storyteller. She is the co-host of the podcast “Green Tide Rising” about the Green Wave movement in Latin America. There are many parallels between the variation of abortion policies in Central and South America to those in the US after the fall of federal abortion protections previously guaranteed by Roe v. Wade. The green wave movement is a grassroots movement that is creating change in culture and policy, giving us a playbook for restoring reproductive rights. Our neighbors to the South are guiding the way and giving us hope.Are you interested in making a tax-deductible donation to support the podcast? Click here!: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

Bev and Jonas take a field trip to DC for a live recording of the podcast with Rabbi Hannah Goldstein of Temple Sinai and Reverend Katey Zeh, executive director of the Religious Community for Reproductive Choice (RCRC). We discuss faith and abortion and tackling some tough questions, like: when does life begin? If you have struggled reconciling your religious beliefs and your views about abortion, then this conversation is just what your soul needs. Are you interested in making a tax-deductible donation to support the podcast? Click here!: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

New episodes of Outlawed coming your way on September 10th!

Join us for a collaboration episode with Jennie Wetter from rePROs fight back! We discuss the updated sexual and reproductive report card from the Population Institute, put out by Jennie and her team. It is an amazing resource to compare access by state. What grade does your state get? Check the report card to find out: https://reportcard.reprosfightback.com/ We also talk about sex ed and Jennie talks us through some upcoming abortion-related court cases that are on her radar. Check out the rePROs Fight Back podcast to learn more about sexual and reproductive health access and news. https://www.reprosfightback.com/

In 2023, 1 out of 5 patients seeking abortion care traveled to another state for care. When access to care was restricted for folks in North Carolina, the next closest state for care was Virginia. People now travel from all over the Southeast to receive care in a variety of locations in Virginia. Since the physician workforce in Virginia is not able to meet that demand, doctors must also travel there to provide care. In this episode, Jonas and Bev first tell their stories of how they ended up doing this work and then they take you to a clinic in Virginia where care is provided with fewer restrictions and a little bit of trail magic.

We are honored this week to share an interview with Professor Katie Watson from Northwestern. She is the author of Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion and has been widely published in the medical literature regarding the ethics of reproductive health care. We discuss a variety of topics on today’s show including: myths about abortion after birth, the impact of abortion bans on other aspects of reproductive health care (like IVF), and Katie’s thoughts about the Dobbs decision.

This week, due to the impact of the LA fires on our team, we are taking a brief pause from new content. In place of our regularly scheduled show, we want to share an episode from Finally! A Show About Women That Isn’t Just a Thinly Veiled Aspirational Nightmare. Finally! A show is an award-winning documentary podcast, brought to you by our own Jane Marie. It takes a deep dive into the lives of women living and working in the US. This particular episode won a Signal award for the Health and Wellness category and introduces us to Jamie Rich, a telehealth abortion care provider. For more information about how you can support those impacted by the LA fires, visit this site: https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/how-to-help-la-fire-victims

One of the most contentious topics of the last election cycle was abortion later in pregnancy (often mislabeled as “late term abortion”). Anti-abortion activists and politicians promote heinous misinformation about this care. This includes false claims that abortion is being performed after birth, an inaccurate and manipulative description of palliative care for babies born with grave physical and/or genetic abnormalities. This episode confronts both of these topics head on as we talk with OB-Gyn expert Dr. Jenni Villavicencio. She walks us through why care later in pregnancy is necessary and how patients are making thoughtful decisions for themselves and their families. Jenni also talks about her transformation for anti-abortion protestor to abortion care provider. We also debunk myths about abortion after birth and talk about the realities of palliative care for infants with lethal birth defects. 

It’s time to go back to school and learn about the nuts and bolts of abortion care. In the first part of the episode, Bev and Jonas walk you through specifics about medication and procedural abortion and how patients might decide which option is best for them. The second part of our episode (starting at minute 18) is an interview with Dr. Diana Green Foster, highlighting some of the findings of the Turnaway Study. We discuss the devastating impacts of being turned away from abortion care. Of note, this episode discusses rape and miscarriage. Find more information about this episode with additional links at outlawed.substack.com.Watch the full lecture at : https://youtu.be/syyUFYZ04rE?si=WcyIsaMR261RM48F

In this episode you will meet Dr. Caitlin Bernard from Indiana, an amazing physician advocate and complex family planning expert. She provided abortion care for a 10 year-old rape victim in Indiana and was the center of a media and legal firestorm. In the face of unjust laws, she is just trying to do her job and take good care of her patients. We will hear her story and think through the implications of making expert clinicians outlaws. 

In this episode we discuss who has access to abortion care and dispel some of the myths about who seeks care in the US. We hear from two reproductive justice advocates, Maya Hart and Ash Williams, about centering access in the conversation. You’ll learn how centering the most historically marginalized patients improves care for everyone. 

The stories out of Texas are numerous and heartbreaking. In our third episode of Outlawed, we’ll meet two people from Texas. One is a high-risk OB-gyn physician who cares for some of the sickest patients and pregnancies. She talks about the impact of the Texas abortion ban (SB8) and Dobbs on the healthcare she can provide people and explains why these laws lead to substandard care. The second person we will meet is Lisa, a patient who had to flee Texas after receiving a devastating diagnosis during her routine second trimester ultrasound.

Brigitte Amiri, JD, is deputy director of the ACLU’s reproductive freedom project. She’s generally a badass lawyer and fights to defend reproductive access and bodily autonomy. She explains how her job has changed since the Dobb’s decision and walks us through why legal protections for abortion access are critical.

We introduce you to our hosts, Dr. Beverly Gray and Dr. Jonas Swartz, along with a woman named Sally, a nurse who answers the phone at an abortion clinic and is the first point of contact for those seeking care in North Carolina.